< 1341705607 297564 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it could be argued that bignum cells are possibly not allowed by the standard < 1341705634 592883 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, iirc javascript uses floats? You want to avoid that, and get proper integers, or at least limit yourself to an integer range < 1341705639 169191 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :32-bit or 64-bit I guess < 1341705643 237856 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably 32-bit? < 1341705652 6327 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are no "proper integers" < 1341705669 569843 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you want the proper precision and behaviour < 1341705672 429031 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does efunge do bignum cellos? < 1341705673 143868 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :as if they were integers < 1341705674 40702 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not why not < 1341705682 884587 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury, I just said it did? < 1341705687 403858 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :read again < 1341705695 358009 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : btw, cfunge can do 64-bit cells. Forgot if it does that by default. And efunge does bignum cells. < 1341705702 947012 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric : does efunge do bignum cellos? < 1341705712 736284 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I thought it was a typo < 1341705714 533650 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :very funny < 1341705721 316724 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I might write the interpreter in coffeescript. < 1341705722 826077 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because. < 1341705727 683763 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arbitrary large string instruments! < 1341705730 612920 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, what is that? < 1341705736 749737 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury, nice < 1341705744 302887 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a dialect of javascript that compiles down to javascript. < 1341705755 343738 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, ... why does that exist? < 1341705766 772324 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because people want sugar with their javascript. :D < 1341705768 648780 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway you should clearly use node.js < 1341705770 616353 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think coffeescript support should be mandatory for HTCPCP user-agents < 1341705782 173805 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury, "HTCPCP"? < 1341705783 65136 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: syntactic sugar causes and you know the rest < 1341705790 18077 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: sure, let me dig out the RFC < 1341705803 29408 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury, oh the coffee thing? < 1341705803 807010 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2324 < 1341705804 317315 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1341705852 321438 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever < 1341705914 932182 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, anyway in here I think I, Deewiant and fizzie could probably help you with any befunge question you might have, except for the cfunge-INTERCAL bridge code, please direct any queries relating to that at ais523 < 1341705951 730853 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes there is a fingerprint IFFI that makes cfunge and the ick INTERCAL implementation interact. Technically cfunge becomes embedded in ick) < 1341705971 616714 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or rather in the program ick produces) < 1341705989 827112 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(since I don't understand intercal terribly well, I can't help with that) < 1341706057 187269 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also AFAIK using coffeescript and node.js aren't mutually exclusive. < 1341706067 147376 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coffeescript plays nicely with javascript code, of course. < 1341706109 661684 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, hey, why not implement an intercal parser? < 1341706111 91122 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1341706154 222058 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is notoriously difficult, it is an LR(infinite) grammar in the worst case) < 1341706272 939832 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm maybe I should implement some more fingerprints in cfunge < 1341706293 255116 :Patashu[Zzz]!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au NICK :Patashu < 1341706295 204694 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to some of the optimisations EVAR might be a bit of a challenge for example < 1341706305 71443 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, btw CCBI is implemented in D < 1341706311 508166 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only program I know that uses D < 1341706385 172761 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I could implement IIPC and IMAP I think, it would just make the code less cleanb < 1341706387 143066 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :clean* < 1341706390 146475 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have made up some functions for dealing with free monads, such as: affectFree :: Functor g => (forall z. (s, f z) -> g (s, z)) -> (s, Free f x) -> Free g (s, x); reduceFree :: Monad m => (forall z. f z -> m z) -> Free f x -> m x; < 1341706398 416183 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :TRDS I couldn't do < 1341706418 31244 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, HEY you want to implement TRDS. It allows time travel for the instruction pointers < 1341706429 374266 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :only rcfunge (the original implementation of it) and CCBI implements it < 1341706439 166355 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is painfully messy < 1341706442 113122 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not looking to implement every fingerprint ever. < 1341706458 74384 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want to use befunge on a website. :D < 1341706463 738082 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww < 1341706474 92777 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, what about SOCK? Would that even work in a browser? < 1341706479 959619 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1341706481 289005 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, fungot uses it < 1341706482 7198 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: hold on... pyrire... is that what they *really* can't stand is a smartass < 1341706482 718197 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1341706483 255812 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1341706590 112657 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :FILE, SOCK, FING, STRN, SCKE, TOYS, REXP < 1341706602 907043 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :TOYS is only used for the reload on the fly < 1341706707 530001 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: pretty sure your example involving k would just run out of stack. < 1341706720 252086 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, empty stack pops a 0 though < 1341706722 225802 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not an issue < 1341706740 188951 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, anyway my point here was that k on j is a pain, k on k is even more of a pain < 1341706757 408139 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ccbi even opted to not handle k on k specially and just hope for the best < 1341706763 72946 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember what cfunge does < 1341706792 697086 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cowards. < 1341706822 279034 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti this is what cfunge does: http://sprunge.us/iMQH?c < 1341706848 844636 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :RUNSELF is a macro < 1341706876 253812 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that recursively invokes the function based on different prototypes (which can happen due to different configurations when building) < 1341706923 603366 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, anyway k is one of those instructions where you could make a case for several different interpretations < 1341706939 116969 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact mycology accepts several variants there (it prints it as UNDEF: ) < 1341706954 709686 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's pretty clear that whatever k does, it should be one tick. < 1341706965 881282 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if it runs k multiple times. < 1341706996 741901 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, ah that isn't the issue. The issue here is different. Where it should fetch the instruction < 1341706997 749063 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tricky part for me is how the linewrapping behaves with jumps. < 1341707025 772174 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, ooh yeah that one is tricky < 1341707047 954333 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressy (who made befunge) was here some time ago and we discussed it with him < 1341707052 245443 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot what the outcome was < 1341707060 475583 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it finds the next instruction in Funge-space in the path of the IP (note that this cannot be a marker such as space or ;), treats it as an instruction, executing it n times. < 1341707074 100385 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it clearly states that kk should execute k, n times. < 1341707080 246369 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1341707086 707455 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then kj should execute j, m times. < 1341707090 749435 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what about the inner k, where should it fetch the instruction? < 1341707104 10363 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :k should fetch it the next from the current position, but executes it at the k iirc < 1341707109 452609 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which leads to some issues with kk < 1341707122 765153 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also things like 1k^ < 1341707128 490205 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :where does that go up from < 1341707135 830031 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it go up above the k or above the ^ < 1341707145 736089 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even kk^ < 1341707175 192969 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the result is the same as just ^ < 1341707177 724535 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the spec says. < 1341707217 363206 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it makes any sense for k to execute the next instruction from its location in the grid. < 1341707239 444815 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, I forgot how it was supposed to work. I wrote most of cfunge in like 2008 < 1341707248 49137 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, what about 01-k2 btw? < 1341707255 214885 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many times does that execute, if any? < 1341707259 553680 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it do something else? < 1341707262 596211 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is - < 1341707267 721004 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, substract < 1341707273 337570 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically you have a -1 on the stack < 1341707275 779317 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you hit the k < 1341707285 975885 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it's signed integers? < 1341707298 937754 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, in befunge? of course < 1341707312 322515 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, signed 32-bit commonly < 1341707337 929003 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, anyway don't stare yourself blind at the spec for this one: < 1341707339 722150 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :"UNDEF: k with a negative argument reflects" < 1341707342 890240 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yeah undef) < 1341707346 60357 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well since "execute -1 times" isnt really meaingful it would just be undefined behavior < 1341707349 295942 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... whatever you want to do. < 1341707357 511195 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would treat it as 0 < 1341707361 175132 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(iirc ccbi executed the absolute value instead) < 1341707409 412473 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw the cfunge bzr repo has some tests for things that mycology doesn't test. Might be useful. Might not be < 1341707485 891728 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I should get rid of the ones named *.b109, since that standard died due to lack of work. < 1341707521 711904 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, read the spec for y too. Have fun < 1341707536 185792 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, I have 1 TB of storage on this server. How can I utilize this for the Great Good of the esolang community? < 1341707544 855539 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mirrors? < 1341707610 887641 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, give me root access < 1341707612 735472 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1341707620 494056 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope. < 1341707627 216856 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :however I'll give you private git repos. < 1341707633 579030 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is running gitolite
< 1341707634 152563 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not git < 1341707641 44476 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1341707646 531433 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not a git user < 1341707650 44606 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1341707650 495296 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :mercurial or bzr < 1341707655 539945 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like git < 1341707714 912477 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, anyway is the server in a data center? < 1341707718 166858 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a home server? < 1341707737 159362 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :data center < 1341707742 218782 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OVH dedicated server < 1341707750 401976 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1341707753 137075 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :must cost a lot < 1341707755 528718 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1341707758 73629 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1341707763 68646 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got the cheapest one, from a reseller < 1341707766 524168 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1341707768 399160 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zero customer support. < 1341707772 871593 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 15 euros a month. < 1341707777 641375 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1341707795 822219 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 GB RAM, celeron processor. Sufficient for a small-scale storage server. < 1341707815 338702 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1341707823 158044 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, only twice the ram of my phone < 1341707839 162975 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as much ram as my laptop < 1341707846 648202 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/8 of the RAM in my desktop < 1341707847 239073 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it has the same CPU and RAM specs as my old dell desktop. < 1341707852 45600 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I still have. < 1341707867 486182 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can't make any silly CPU comparisons without more details :P < 1341707880 905653 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.kimsufi.ie/ < 1341707905 510015 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, 1.2 GHz? < 1341707910 848808 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check < 1341707911 50 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that is less than my phone < 1341707913 660044 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many cores? < 1341707925 687857 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :one sec < 1341707933 515505 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember how to check this stuff from shell. < 1341707941 214027 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :/proc/cpuinfo < 1341707941 631149 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, cat /proc/cpuinfo < 1341707963 516550 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 core 1.6 Ghz Atom < 1341707990 652990 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sufficient for a server, I think. < 1341707995 277884 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, my phone has 4 cores at 1.4 GHz each. Of course, it is ARM so any comparison is pointless. < 1341708024 779250 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :though atm /proc/cpuinfo on it only lists one, but iirc it hotplugs the cores on demand < 1341708035 441439 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :MemTotal: 2035816 kB < 1341708052 663564 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/HUfh < 1341708091 565820 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah it looks like their plans only list the minimum of what you're getting. < 1341708101 769298 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1341708113 623235 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1341708125 784524 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, what about traffic / month? < 1341708137 740907 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says "Unlimited* " < 1341708141 28131 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the * mean < 1341708151 725896 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 TB a month before they limit your bandwidth. < 1341708156 117581 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but otherwise unlimited. < 1341708156 375333 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can only find ** and *** below < 1341708167 13092 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :** : The traffic is unlimited. If you exceed 5TB/month for the Kimsufi 2G, 10TB/month for the Kimsufi 16G or 15TB/month for the 24G Kimsufi the connection will be limited to 10 Mbps. You can buy additional TB of traffic directly from your manager: €0.99 per TB < 1341708169 64037 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, that is not "unlimited" < 1341708171 55919 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they messed up their asterisks. :P < 1341708174 450920 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1341708185 722098 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see myself exceeding 5 TB a month. < 1341708193 98790 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1341708202 427102 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is .ie? < 1341708205 465318 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Irland? < 1341708205 616592 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ireland < 1341708221 399247 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a .co.uk but they only work with UK customers. < 1341708222 881102 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, it is spelled Ireland in English < 1341708227 256459 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the .ie site has ireland, US, and I think Canada. < 1341708258 950959 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :"BSD Raw, for BSD fans", I wonder why they don't say that the Linux variant is for Linux fans, or the Windows variant is for windows fans < 1341708260 210699 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1341708265 229680 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :best deal I've found for a dedicated server. the price per storage space is much higher than any VPS I've found. < 1341708278 487530 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, much lower you mean < 1341708279 717685 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, lower < 1341708280 251761 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1341708284 342337 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hlep what is ratio < 1341708296 754098 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1341708298 223530 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1341708305 128189 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing. < 1341708315 689448 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, "help what is ratio"? < 1341708316 672941 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1341708348 195220 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how to explain what that means < 1341708357 6439 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, which distro did they pre-install? < 1341708363 851584 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :debian? < 1341708381 359893 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you pick from a list. I chose Debian (stable was the only option, but I updated to wheezy) < 1341708382 100607 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would probably go for debian myself < 1341708387 6945 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1341708394 906160 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not sid ;P < 1341708402 731449 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm afraid of things called "unstable" < 1341708436 321775 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there an even more unstable version than sid iirc? < 1341708439 713411 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a production server, you'd want Debian stable. testing would be a bit risky. < 1341708445 881826 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1341708457 951390 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, no idea. < 1341708474 968910 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I guess they don't give you hardware visualisation with the cheap variant < 1341708498 294841 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should go for colo, then the hardware is a one-time investment (huge one though) < 1341708499 13170 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's some graphs and stuff I haven't looked at. you can view resource usage < 1341708510 323090 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is colo < 1341708515 811219 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :colocated server < 1341708525 94031 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think my experience with making a program that had an inordinately large startup time made me desire an environment with live modification of code more than I really should < 1341708526 689451 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you provide the hardware < 1341708530 984732 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :they provide the rack < 1341708535 642739 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, do they give you any kvm access? < 1341708544 582374 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :to access BIOS and if you fuck up ssh < 1341708571 598200 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a "web console" if you fuck up your network config, and you can reboot from the admin panel. < 1341708589 217483 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, with web console you mean a serial console? < 1341708597 620419 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what it is. :P < 1341708600 265028 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what they call it. < 1341708600 566744 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1341708603 250870 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1341708604 236626 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't used it. < 1341708631 716532 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah it seems like a nice deal < 1341708662 497772 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't mind upgrading to one of the better servers if I could afford it. < 1341708669 672552 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno what I would do with 16 GBs of RAM and 2 TBs though. < 1341708677 719063 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :for now I manage fine with dropbox. My phone came with 50 GB free for 2 years. < 1341708688 506378 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: my server (which is also my laptop, heh) is running debian Testing < 1341708699 957118 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I'm running test on both my laptop and server. < 1341708702 532376 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*testing < 1341708705 578596 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury, how do you do RAID then? < 1341708706 470938 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stable is more than stable, it's fossilised < 1341708711 374414 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, does the hardware have RAID btw? < 1341708714 215235 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: um, I don't < 1341708716 661643 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't do a server without RAID 1 < 1341708725 570253 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury, right, I even do RAID 1 on my desktop < 1341708728 14822 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only have one disk in my laptop < 1341708737 561395 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have... 3 + 1 SSD < 1341708742 703413 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: not sure. I know there's backup services but it costs extra I believe. < 1341708744 951006 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hard to fit more than that into the case heh < 1341708745 684218 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the third one is for windows, no raid for it < 1341708761 786923 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury, then it isn't a desktop case < 1341708763 756127 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(however, I do intend (eventually!) to get an external disk that I can raid onto < 1341708772 63556 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have space for two more disks < 1341708776 253043 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I know it isn't. It's a laptop, not a desktop < 1341708781 797673 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1341708788 939082 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read laptop as desktop somehow < 1341708798 258406 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember reading about a laptop with 2 disks < 1341708807 174218 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :some insane 20" thingy with dual screens iirc < 1341708811 804225 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yeah RAID costs extra. < 1341708814 946592 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes seriously) < 1341708818 129274 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, how much extra? < 1341708886 288555 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: actually it looks like they don't offer it at all. they point you to the OVH site for that. < 1341708911 698896 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ovh.ie/dedicated_servers/ < 1341708934 602478 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :OVH? < 1341708940 882420 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kimsufi is a reseller of OVH < 1341708945 75996 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1341708956 149042 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :those cost considerably more < 1341708966 163840 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. they come with more bells and whistles. and probably better support. < 1341708986 70547 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kimsufi is "here, have a computer. don't break anything" < 1341708990 708147 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1341709003 999047 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, I would love "here, have a computer with RAID 1, don't break anything" < 1341709022 645165 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :support isn't what I'm looking for < 1341709035 345053 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would hope that hard drive failure isn't something I'll need to worry about. < 1341709052 223295 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, have backups on everything on the server I would suggest < 1341709073 427321 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well at the moment the server is my backup. < 1341709074 679014 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :using it as an backup is fine, unlikely both your local disk and the remote disk would fail at the same time < 1341709080 941381 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but eventually I'll have an external drive I can rsync to. < 1341709129 694874 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I'm going to set up a fancy backup system with rsync + git annex. < 1341709163 276998 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to fool with git locally. so I'll just have a local cronjob that rsyncs to the server, and a serverside cronjob that does git / git annex stuff < 1341709164 242892 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1341709175 532147 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1341709180 10624 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is git annex? < 1341709182 343624 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can version control small files < 1341709191 285126 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, my /etc is in bzr < 1341709191 607009 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :git annex lets you check things into git without actually checking the file contents in < 1341709201 100718 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can use it to transfer large files. < 1341709205 85821 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but version control small files. < 1341709211 787622 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1341709222 701114 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like a dropbox replacement for people with servers. :P < 1341709227 557464 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1341709232 509560 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> text ":P" < 1341709234 21047 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : :P < 1341709244 95869 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1341709251 872904 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the prefix for EgoBot now again? < 1341709254 306501 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :^help < 1341709254 639344 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool < 1341709256 548677 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help < 1341709257 287932 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . < 1341709260 255761 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1341709266 376150 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :psh, I haven't been here for months and I know this stuff. c'mon. < 1341709271 337707 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help languages < 1341709271 622898 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. < 1341709288 491404 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :!befunge98 > text ":P" < 1341709291 680510 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a fork bomb < 1341709296 193557 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to >t < 1341709302 238757 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1341709304 68684 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't fear though, there are limits < 1341709318 62077 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait befunge starts from right to left? < 1341709327 682857 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, it travels > < 1341709331 549364 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :to start with < 1341709336 699251 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but look at what t does < 1341709344 843412 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the child IP starts in the opposite direction < 1341709348 354001 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... yeah < 1341709349 23442 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1341709376 557786 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, speaking of which, you need to move the child IP forward before it's first move < 1341709378 704440 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so >t with a @ along the control flow path makes a fun little concurrent stream of sorts. < 1341709390 627350 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the spec is written so that the first instruction the child ip executes is t.... < 1341709400 673772 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, yes < 1341709429 436522 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :!befunge98 >t"foo"...@ < 1341709430 17476 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :111 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 < 1341709434 680562 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1341709435 156188 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :each thread has its own stack I'd imagine. < 1341709440 417833 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, yes < 1341709447 752104 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, and its own set of fingerprints < 1341709449 536742 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1341709456 765788 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway t is optional < 1341709458 51407 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sanity? in my esolangs? < 1341709463 925159 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you indicate support in y < 1341709476 985729 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, befunge-98 is surprisingly sane < 1341709488 222822 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is however really hard to compile, and to implement in general < 1341709518 134005 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, remember the IP can't only move ^>v< you can use x to set the delta vector to any value < 1341709523 455391 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is going to mess up compiling :P < 1341709545 836246 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine reading the delta vector from user input < 1341709546 119317 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: re: VPA. kimsufi has VPS offers. and there's nothing stoping you from running xen or kvm or whatever on your dedicated server. < 1341709559 421092 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact the 24G server would be sufficient to run a small VPS service. < 1341709564 385826 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1341709637 594962 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw samsung sucks at coding. Each time I plug my phone into a computer it spawns two zombie shell processes < 1341709656 819176 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the parent process? kiesexe... Kies is Samsung's PC bloatware phone suite < 1341709675 475012 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PART #esoteric :"Leaving" < 1341709710 873542 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, ^ < 1341709765 377960 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1341709834 142743 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :app_113 8739 1909 461856 31200 ffffffff 00000000 S com.sec.android.daemonapp.ap.yahoostock.stockclock <-- huh, I disabled the yahoo bloatware... Wtf < 1341709841 969418 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I freelance for living these days, private git repos will come in handy. < 1341709845 271038 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :+a < 1341709888 500706 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :+a? < 1341709894 483756 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was an a missing < 1341709896 782394 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that sentence. < 1341709899 415527 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I put it back in < 1341709932 188498 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't see where it was < 1341709936 478878 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :haandy? < 1341709936 630068 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a living < 1341709938 889536 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1341709950 926292 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1341709968 910973 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"freelance for living" sounds like something an ignorant Swede would say! < 1341709987 35248 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1341710022 591346 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a sophisticated speaker of the English serpent. < 1341710086 668343 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1341710099 782858 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, and where are you from? < 1341710112 245160 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The United States of America. < 1341710125 634069 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :blergh, you can't even spell colour correctly < 1341710144 922003 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you put z instead of s in many places < 1341710150 916025 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have nothing to say when it comes to English :P < 1341710152 265177 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's because it's so cool. < 1341710155 201013 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :to use z < 1341710163 566783 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHC uses z encoding < 1341710165 940076 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's because < 1341710169 171589 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it knows what it means to be cool. < 1341710175 926936 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, why didn't you write "to uze z" then? < 1341710176 83136 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like Americans < 1341710183 203187 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or "americanz" < 1341710193 787324 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the art of cool is a subtle thing. < 1341710200 444776 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :touche < 1341710204 349771 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't be brazen with your z's < 1341710211 789784 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :brasen :P < 1341710217 301154 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no not really) < 1341710229 906783 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what is the name of that figure of speech I just used < 1341710234 761242 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the English serpent" < 1341710256 323605 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1341710283 13573 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a name < 1341710298 356743 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, "non sequitur" ;) < 1341710299 746489 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1341710304 863506 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1341710315 407287 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it has an actual name. < 1341710318 970689 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a thing people do < 1341710326 544870 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :TRUST ME OKAY. < 1341710343 520210 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, "figure of speech" < 1341710386 945197 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but it's a specific one < 1341710392 880455 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :riight < 1341710418 554605 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know where android keep the group mappings? < 1341710431 79282 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has no /etc/passwd or /etc/groups < 1341710439 18895 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet "id" manages to work < 1341710528 874771 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh "Actually there is a stub for mapping the android_id to passwd structure. Although there is no physical /etc/passed, the stub should populate the values. " < 1341710748 160145 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I'm going to sleep. Good night < 1341710771 58798 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, don't forget to check out mycology. And I will ask you tomorrow how it all went I guess < 1341710779 901116 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(how much you written so far and so on) < 1341710784 413109 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing. < 1341710790 642109 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :get started then! < 1341710797 850270 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1341710807 62551 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to work on things that get me paid, actually. < 1341710808 527065 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :as usual. < 1341710813 17866 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1341710830 247614 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not too bad. I'm writing it in Haskell, because I can. < 1341710842 18323 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got a job. Will start last July < 1341710863 269302 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will start a year ago? :P < 1341710871 391095 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :last of July :P < 1341710877 76245 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :at Atlas Copco. Will code in C++ on top of a real time OS < 1341710881 998617 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :mining rigs < 1341710886 297289 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice. < 1341710910 934747 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, it is easy to get jobs if you took computer science or computer engineering in Sweden < 1341710912 619237 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should convince them to use FPC++ < 1341710919 263986 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :FPC+ being? < 1341710942 168752 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait it's FC++ < 1341710943 949120 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1341710947 246045 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is FC++? < 1341710950 187812 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"functional C++" < 1341710953 567801 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1341710957 822595 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's good. < 1341710971 442522 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, did you see pikhq's lambda's in C (using gcc for closures) < 1341710980 753640 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask him to give you a link otherwise < 1341710989 92460 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is awesome to look at < 1341710989 642182 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FC++ is actually well designed. < 1341710999 758163 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :riiight < 1341711014 925418 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it supports higher-order functions on functions with polymorphic types. < 1341711022 812547 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1341711023 205536 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341711025 161529 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which IIRC templates don't do. < 1341711025 312580 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C++ < 1341711026 591049 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1341711026 769828 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1341711036 65585 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this a C++ library? < 1341711040 496697 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course. < 1341711044 287964 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1341711047 690260 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :using templates? < 1341711054 284085 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :believe so. < 1341711068 430087 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about boost? < 1341711071 118161 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it use boost? < 1341711081 714445 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're working on getting it in boost actually < 1341711087 912400 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch stop it! < 1341711093 155326 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :boost is not a good thing :P < 1341711097 514890 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not? < 1341711103 96550 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is over-engineered < 1341711110 904329 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what I have seen of it < 1341711124 646194 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :For me C++ is just a job. C++ is not fun. < 1341711130 145004 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : I've used the async networking bits of it, and from what I can tell it's pretty well-designed. < 1341711137 37527 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't expect interfaces to be simple in C++. < 1341711144 615780 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that is an issue < 1341711160 34042 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java or C# (with their standard libraries) are much nicer < 1341711177 67585 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :C# is actually a pretty decent imperative object oriented language < 1341711188 718141 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :java is not quite as decent < 1341711197 624167 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(generics and type erasure for a start) < 1341711223 755278 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :C# isn't bad < 1341711236 850588 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1341711244 845361 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I enjoy the way C++ "feels" if that makes sense. < 1341711246 592108 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I need to sleep < 1341711254 237125 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, you sick sick person! :P < 1341711261 434061 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ feels clunky < 1341711273 212534 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341711290 921325 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact most programming languages do to some extent, even haskell sometimes. But Haskell less than usual, and C++ more than usual < 1341711304 185701 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, night *closes lid on laptop running the irc client* < 1341711315 864412 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD NIGHT < 1341711558 535594 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1341712375 267169 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DAPXMZk2iw < 1341712381 364718 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are those thumbs up numbers for real < 1341712395 94630 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are by far the highest I've ever seen < 1341712786 61968 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’ve just been playing that game. \o/ It’s one of the best games i’ve played. < 1341712786 250268 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :69                                | < 1341712786 421138 :myndzi!myndzi@c-67-168-184-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :69                               /´\ < 1341712973 306644 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1341712976 211538 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341713035 202859 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341713106 340938 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion, well I did start playing it again yesterday in lieu of considering augur's comments on nonlethal and stealth, and decided I wasn't having any truck with either. < 1341713141 80854 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suffice to say, dragon's tooth sword + regen aug makes most of the game a cakewalk. < 1341713147 469148 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1341713188 490352 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’ve been playing a stealth game, avoiding melée. < 1341713230 554883 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So are you using the... one stealth non-melee weapon in the vanilla game? < 1341713281 699994 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Silenced sniper rifle, stealth pistol doesn't count since it can barely kill the average grunt with a headshot with pistols at master.) < 1341713310 170379 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1341713476 307149 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1341713607 31040 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1341714103 241468 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341714136 213764 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341714390 188598 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1341714652 950947 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1341714658 212567 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341714979 764290 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe some is more and less clunky to you < 1341714980 332622 :Tod-Autojoined!~Tod@166-70-93-209.ip.xmission.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1341714989 879471 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not understand exactly what you mean < 1341715032 846978 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1341715201 437787 :TodPunk!~Tod@166-70-93-209.ip.xmission.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1341715782 46362 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-54.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341716114 894767 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :data X :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { X :: y z -> X x y (x z); }; What would it be called instead of "X"? < 1341716240 152846 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-54.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aloha, folk. < 1341716508 943752 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know what it would be called? < 1341716583 456341 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know this one? data Y :: ((* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { Y :: forall (w :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> *) (x :: * -> *) y z. w x y (x z) -> Y w y z; }; < 1341716653 957623 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Ahola, klof. < 1341717793 745512 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1341717895 61621 :Patashu!Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 . < 1341717947 159954 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: No clue! < 1341718840 13155 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION attempts to remember the details of the proof of the theorem that ais523 and I did
< 1341718875 606037 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to be caught up wondering why the assumption that the version of the pattern with the dead live cell could not be part of the loop if the pattern without the cell was < 1341719201 919353 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a mistake in my restatement of the proof < 1341719206 936003 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/11.07.23 < 1341719246 79225 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:51:41 Now, for every pattern of a certain size or smaller, you can trivially make a precursor by putting a single live cell outside of causal contact with the pattern. Therefore, the pattern has a precursor, and therefore, there's a Garden of Eden that results in it. < 1341719297 963828 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Besides the sloppy wording, the extra cell doesn't result in having a precursor of the pattern added to, but a precursor of the pattern's next iteration) < 1341720163 75769 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1341720200 414727 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1341720545 411386 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know what to call these "X" and "Y" types instead of the names "X" and "Y"? < 1341720558 70830 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1341720570 284898 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :data X :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { X :: y z -> X x y (x z); }; data Y :: ((* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { Y :: forall (w :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> *) (x :: * -> *) y z. w x y (x z) -> Y w y z; }; < 1341720595 596768 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got nothin < 1341720632 859064 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure? < 1341720676 120903 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1341720696 809799 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know the proper name either. < 1341720720 212851 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you drop the z parameter from X maybe you can spot something < 1341720761 873731 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :X x y = (y -> X x y) looks like a hyperfunction < 1341720786 99931 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you probably have something like a higher order hyperfunction there < 1341720792 447620 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that isn't what it is, though. Here it is a GADT. < 1341720797 758027 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1341720803 450600 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm fishing for intuition < 1341720808 717335 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that type means nothing to me ;) < 1341720827 365387 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you ignore the action on the third parameter you get a hyperfunction < 1341720840 206899 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have something hyperfunction-like, but i don't know how you would use it < 1341720862 502634 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :its like a hyperfunction where you are building up a layer of x's for every step of the hyperfunction < 1341720893 827253 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of like a prepromorphism < 1341720909 957754 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :but those aren't applied to non-uniformly recursive types like this < 1341720972 873321 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would hazard that if you took the "initial algebra semantics are enough", there might be a way to make that prepromorphism connection more rigorous < 1341721069 115829 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can probably annihilate X with a Jet or use it to consume one < 1341721080 118348 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is Jet? < 1341721107 550314 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/ekmett/ad/blob/master/src/Numeric/AD/Internal/Jet.hs#L39 < 1341721118 267119 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a 'fully unzipped' cofree comonad < 1341721132 295977 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :a :- f a :- f (f a) :- f (f (f a)) :- ... < 1341721153 572435 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :your X wants to consume an a then an f a then an f (f a), etc. < 1341721209 933854 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't want to consume anything, as far as I can see. < 1341721242 122252 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't a function. < 1341721281 806378 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah you're right < 1341721282 874352 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrmm < 1341721306 926918 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was reading it as y z -> X x y (y z) -> X x y z < 1341721460 719706 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now i have no intuition for it whatsoever ;) < 1341721463 727431 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of uses with Yoneda and Density and so on. < 1341721522 9625 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is never a Functor, as far as I can tell. < 1341722174 865569 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you figure out about CodensityAsk, CodensityAskT, DensityAsk, DensityAskT? < 1341722228 595124 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The way I have it, (CodensityAsk w) make MonadPlus if w is Comonad; hopefully it is correct although I am not completely sure) < 1341722273 18866 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been busy packing for the last 2 days < 1341722287 458139 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know; you told me that. < 1341722312 147835 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's saying you're repetitive < 1341722337 800239 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally got my new living room furniture. first time i reclined one of the loveseats, the whole thing burned out and shut down. now i have a loveseat i can't un-recline ;) < 1341722356 869433 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: well, so is the question ;) < 1341722357 20625 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now you have to fix it, please. < 1341722375 155443 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that too. < 1341722375 306624 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i'll let the people who shipped it to me fix it < 1341722458 262322 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask a qestion again, expect a different answer < 1341722465 160654 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :"do you love me yet?" < 1341722471 855295 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know! < 1341722486 836540 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. ;) < 1341722576 996834 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is your CofreeT? Is it different to mine that is why you said mine was wrong? I can fix it if it is wrong < 1341722577 148305 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :"do i qualify as sane now????" < 1341722589 477907 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Ask again later. < 1341722595 732994 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :"do i qualify as sane now????" < 1341722598 613050 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Ask again later. < 1341722602 383002 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :"do i qualify as sane now????" < 1341722604 893320 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Ask again later. < 1341722645 5605 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn that was hilarious but it is too long to quote < 1341722646 973771 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :it put the w on the outside < 1341722652 555275 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1341722714 426976 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you have: data CofreeT f w x = CofreeT (w (x, f (CofreeT f w x))) < 1341722736 39063 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: more or less (the pair was a data type) < 1341722781 629716 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i guess it wasn't < 1341722782 348042 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/comonad-transformers/0.3/doc/html/Control-Comonad-Trans-Stream.html < 1341722807 321372 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't check its laws and it was awkward as hell to reason about < 1341722841 290106 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that freeT puts the m on the outside leads me to guess by analogy that the w may go on the inside like you had < 1341722845 983110 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you may well have been correct < 1341722858 59006 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this is the version i had < 1341722861 320364 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is what I thought. < 1341722931 208239 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i wrote that i was only just coming to terms with the way things had to distribute over one another to make a comonad transformer < 1341722942 692823 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i had implemented many comonad-transformers incorrectly in category-extras) < 1341722993 567637 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My definitions of class methods are: duplicate (CofreeT x y) = CofreeT (x =>> flip CofreeT y) (duplicate <$> y); lower (CofreeT x _) = x; < 1341723052 858988 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :*nods* < 1341723063 308988 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :duplicate looks simple enough to be right < 1341723099 43307 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll validate it when i get around to adding CofreeT and FreeT to the free package < 1341723226 600133 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :extract is also obviously correct, I think. < 1341723296 391556 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I didn't specify fmap or extract, because fmap is known directly from the type, and extract = extract . lower) < 1341723330 798197 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1341723843 265346 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not post the CodensityAskT on here so now I will: newtype CodensityAskT w m x = CodensityAskT { runCodensityAskT :: forall z. w (m z) -> (x -> m z) -> m z }; < 1341724062 222061 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have said before that (Yoneda Endo) makes a Maybe monad, although you cannot get the instances for free. (CodensityAsk Identity) would be the same kind of things, isn't it? You will get Monad and MonadPlus instance for free. < 1341726303 314529 :ogrom!~del@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1341727877 890984 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get the instance of Monad for Yoneda Endo for free < 1341727886 339241 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1341727887 232629 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1341727894 830269 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :HMonad, not Monad, hrmm < 1341727994 471765 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :the easiest way to get a 'free' definition for Maybe is Free Default using the Free c a = forall r. c r => (a -> r) -> r free monad < 1341727998 451920 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can get the instance of Plus for Yoneda Endo for free at least in my definitions. < 1341728018 184460 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: Yes that works too. < 1341728041 728987 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice though, just working with Codensity Maybe is faster than working with the Yoneda Endo-based Maybe < 1341728058 295480 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1341728061 129972 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that at least is a monad for free < 1341728072 380726 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is isomorphic to Yoneda Endo < 1341728107 261495 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlike yours, you can also get the MonadPlus instance for free for (Codensity Endo), and it acts like a list monad. < 1341728202 237407 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :class Plus f where { zero :: f x; plus :: f x -> f x -> f x; }; instance Plus Endo where { zero = mempty; plus = mappend; }; instance Plus f => MonadPlus (Codensity f) where { mzero = Codensity (const zero); mplus (Codensity x) (Codensity y) = Codensity (liftA2 plus x y); }; < 1341728207 233407 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :The difference is that CodensityAskT is sort of an ad hoc mess =P < 1341728215 58406 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrmm < 1341728226 506707 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: O, yes, OK. Perhaps it is sort of an ad hoc mess. < 1341728257 571624 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't know if it is so messy as to be wrong. < 1341728257 723839 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i buy Codensity Endo < 1341728284 145697 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not wrong, its just not fundamental in any real useful way i can detect < 1341728322 958328 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There is also CodensityAsk which is the same except without the "m"; the reason it is separate is because w could be anything not necessarily even a endofunctor or contrafunctor) < 1341728341 25976 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although to make a MonadPlus, w does need to be a comonad and therefore a endofunctor.) < 1341728367 632216 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure it is not wrong? I thought you said before that you were unsure? < 1341728379 173050 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure < 1341728418 163901 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i meant that even granting it not being wrong, that it was an ad hoc mess =) < 1341728439 786781 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I understand that. < 1341728582 490170 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm debating about weakening the requirement for MonadPlus (Codensity m) to just Plus m, i'm torn because the MonadPlus m => MonadPlus (Codensity m) is more useful to more people < 1341728680 159818 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: Well, I do have a overlappable instance Alternative f => Plus f so probably it is also Applicative and Alternative so it can be used. < 1341728691 496461 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :that instance is a terrible idea < 1341728711 393126 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it only works reliably if it is placed _in_ the module with any instance that overlaps it! < 1341728715 736991 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need not do that, although even if you do, I think your Plus requires Functor anyways so it won't work < 1341728728 425897 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh true < 1341728763 183105 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: No instances will actually overlap it though, since you will define Alternative rather than Plus if it can have that. < 1341728848 515758 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have a 'compatible' instance, but the problem is that even so, if you make two instance Foo a and Foo Bar but you define Foo Bar in another module than the module you supplied Foo a, there exist circumstances where you may never get the Foo Bar instance to be taken. < 1341728869 264430 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPJ has commented on this in the past when overlapping instances come up < 1341728911 589297 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know overlapping instances is not the best solution but it is what Haskell has. The solutions in Ibtlfmm work better but we don't have that so instead we use what we do have. < 1341728949 801321 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, its not that its what haskell has, its that if you use it, and will be adding more instances in any other module, your code is just broken < 1341729010 253651 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use overlapping instances if you define everything that overlaps with that instance in the same module as the 'too general' case, and it'll work correctly (in the absence of ConstraintKinds and other tomfoolery) < 1341729046 125398 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happens if you define them in other modules? < 1341729049 792286 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you go to make a sweeping instance like the one you named, by construction people will want to make refinements later! < 1341729059 582804 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :they often won't be seen < 1341729078 493649 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its unpredictable because instances tend to infect a ghc --make session < 1341729118 188856 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general the decision of what to do at an instance head has to be an entirely local decision < 1341729129 291561 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, but still, if you require the Plus and Alternative and MonadPlus to all use the same monoid, you should not get any problems, especially if you never actually define a Plus instance for something that has Alternative. < 1341729174 610847 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I just put in overlapping instances to ensure it will compile. It seems it won't always compile if that is turned off.) < 1341729232 936294 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :the statement that instance says is that 'the only instances of Plus are instances of Alternative', that is a much stronger statement than you want, and it can prevent the more specific rule for something that -is- only a Plus from being used in some difficult to write circumstances < 1341729234 61921 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do understand the problems with overlapping instances but sometimes it is needed for some things. < 1341729251 681349 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think you do, because you're still trying to use a flagrantly broken instance ;) < 1341729263 313488 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk: Yes I saw those kind of things, but that isn't the only instance in that module. < 1341729456 434591 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If overlapping instances is not turned on, I get the error "Overlapping instances for Plus Endo" when doing something like (return 7 <|> (return 9 :: Codensity Endo Int)) even though there are no overlapping instances. < 1341729476 930038 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is that? < 1341729509 832382 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1341729564 107000 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you explain in what circumstances something that is only a Plus cannot be used? < 1341729633 564988 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You say that if you define the other instances in a different module they won't work. Have you tried this? < 1341729642 731240 :variable!~root@freebsd/developer/variable NICK :const < 1341729686 166104 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I understand *some* problems with overlapping instances, not necessarily all. < 1341729776 26286 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :One problem seems to be that you cannot mark individual instances in a module as normal, overlapping, or incoherent. < 1341729805 757169 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not only would I like to be able to ark individual instances, I would also like TH splices to be able to do so. < 1341729902 120189 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have thought of something else but might result in many other problems: Use a TH code that gets the list of instances of Alternative and of Plus and then make up individual instances of Plus for all Alternative if they don't already have instance of Plus too. But then it is possible different modules will have different instances even if the instances are the same. < 1341730058 76723 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-154-54.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1341730209 974543 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-224-99.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341730251 478753 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I fix it? < 1341730453 737127 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :just tuned back in < 1341730467 6590 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't have the link handy for how it blows up < 1341730483 970350 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :the th hack you mentioned is actually a reasonably correct solution < 1341730502 224103 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it needs to probably be run in the module that defines the type < 1341730527 546325 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means if you don't control the type, any instances you make will be orphans and subject to this problem < 1341730574 419942 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes that is what I thought. It is possible different modules will have different instances even if the instances are the same, and maybe this can somehow cause problems? < 1341730729 915663 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :it definitely causes problems < 1341730753 577401 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :and will introduce even more overlap and incoherence if someone imports both of those modues < 1341730796 723069 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have Foo and Bar imports Foo, and defines an instance and Baz imports Foo and defines a similar instance, and Quux imports Bar and Baz, you're hosed. this is why orphan instances are bad < 1341730929 684010 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I can understand. < 1341730967 902421 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the type class system how it is implemented in Haskell is just somewhat bad in general; it is why I proposed the Ibtlfmm system which should correct these and other problems. < 1341731149 942959 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Ibtlfmm, it would be possible for types to have annotations. Two types that are the same type but with different annotations are still the same type. The purpose of the annotations is they can be accessed by macros. Since classes will just be type synonyms of some constraint with many parts (the methods, laws, superclasses, etc) then "instance" can also be a macro that takes this into consideration! < 1341731171 778028 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore you can have default definition of class methods even though there needs not have this feature built-in to Ibtlfmm. < 1341731276 434587 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think the type class system in Haskell is somewhat bad in general? Do you think this other way is better? < 1341731389 715972 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think there are a number of fundamental issues that every such system needs to address, and that Haskell's system is the best of all the terrible systems I've seen tried. < 1341731424 688171 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no practical experience with your system, so I have no real stance on if its good/bad or just odd ;) < 1341731437 530405 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes that is probably true. Nevertheless I had my own ideas many of which have never been implemented as far as I know. < 1341731460 400486 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :but my main concern is that if you don't have confluence of instance resolution, you'll wind up with the same sewer that scala has < 1341731469 582867 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't really have practical experience with my system since no implementation exists (not even the specification actually really exists completely). < 1341731478 618130 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it isn't clear to me from your description whether that holds or not < 1341731491 860963 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is confluence of instance resolution? < 1341731500 362513 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what is the same sewer that scala has? < 1341731510 394058 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :in haskell there is only one instance of 'Ord Int' for instance < 1341731524 944479 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :in scala i can make up multiple implicit definitions for that < 1341731582 274223 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :in haskell this means that, say, given two Set Int values that you know they were sorted the same way so you can use a hedge merge < 1341731607 591410 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in scala, you get no such guarantee, so you must take the asymptotically slower solution of inserting every member of the smaller set into the larger < 1341731623 379844 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have read and thought of the problems of having multiple instances of Ord Int such as making Set Int wrong; but what if you could have like this: Set :: Ord x => (* =x) -> * being the kind of the type Set (as Haskell's Set) therefore if the instance Ord Int is different, the type Set Int is also a different type. < 1341731697 50305 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could be allowed to equate two different instances of the same thing in two different modules even in a third module; this is simply an assertion and if the computer doesn't attempt and succeed at disproving it then it is assumed to be equivalent. < 1341731721 501700 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you can move constraints to the kind system < 1341731724 220971 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And even if the computer does somehow disprove it, you would probably only get a warning.) < 1341731732 392624 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure i'm a fan of unchecked assertions like that ;) < 1341731780 688323 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I mean that constraints are types and can be used on types but can also be used on kinds. < 1341731792 193033 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, i need to get some sleep, movers will be here in a few hours < 1341731799 496691 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I can understand if you dislike these kind of unchecked assertions. < 1341731814 665488 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, doesn't Haskell already have some such as GHC's RULES pragmas? < 1341731843 251753 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :RULES pragmas are at least checked for type consistency < 1341731870 642250 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they are accepted to be a sort of 'buyer beware' situation for extreme optimizations < 1341731886 90009 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It is just that in the case of Ibtlfmm, they are somewhat stronger and the compiler is allowed to attempt to disprove them as long as it does not go into an infinite loop in doing so, and even if it does disprove it you should get a warning. There are other things that make them stronger too such as allowing implied stuff to be assumed too) < 1341731909 870212 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :the situation you painted, would make you use this in many places where an ml programmer would be asserting the use of two modules with a type equality assertion < 1341731914 187663 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :that happens a lot more < 1341731931 79429 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But with my idea of Set :: Ord x => (* =x) -> * then (Set Int) is not even a valid type if there is no instance Ord Int in scope. < 1341731975 783762 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-67-223.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341731987 527508 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-67-223.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1341732014 486266 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :FYI- jhc's internal representation of typeclasses in its 'E" language is somewhat similar to the subkinding representation of classes < 1341732027 435534 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean, asserting the use of two modules with a type equality assertion? How does that work? < 1341732031 930248 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may get some insight into your problem domain < 1341732040 637751 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm goign to sleep now =P < 1341732043 648487 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1341732047 83730 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1341732351 815089 :const!~root@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1341732387 446495 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do *you* think Ibtlfmm's class system and Haskell's class system will be compared? < 1341732425 758320 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I do mean you, too. < 1341732476 331148 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-67-223.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ibtlfmm? < 1341732550 590929 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read the logs as well as my file I wrote some things about it (I may write another one later too). < 1341732563 743420 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-67-223.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastelogs Ibtlfmm < 1341732579 476075 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map succ "Haskell" < 1341732581 246553 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Ibtlfmm" < 1341732581 616518 :Guest1087!~root@c-98-234-180-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341732603 212373 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1341732609 774826 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-67-223.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1341732614 135655 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops! Is the pastelogs broken? < 1341732622 283434 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just look at the recent logs for now. < 1341732708 834598 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Do you know why the pastelogs is broken? < 1341732740 260441 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cannot access the logs at all. < 1341732759 899336 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's try the other one. < 1341732810 101023 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :This one works: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/12.07.08 < 1341732862 560039 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-67-223.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, Codu.org seems to be down < 1341733950 735530 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-67-223.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I don't really understand it. Can you give some examples of it in practise? < 1341734329 723094 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!ping < 1341734334 892210 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pong! < 1341734346 290403 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, I wasn't actually expecting a response < 1341734350 631275 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this must be more complicated than it looks < 1341734374 871230 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo Pong! < 1341734377 632979 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pong! < 1341734393 696717 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastelogs Ibtlfmm < 1341734412 268083 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-67-223.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, codu's down < 1341734412 420012 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15514 < 1341734423 922649 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I'm attempting to determine to what extent it's down < 1341734430 917351 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-67-223.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, okay < 1341734504 823089 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Monad (m :: * -> *) :: & = (Functor m, MonadLaws m, method return :: x. x -> m x, method join :: x. m (m x) -> m x); < 1341734509 821240 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems to be just the webserver that's having issues < 1341734526 451399 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although seeing both glogbot and glogbackup here is a little confusing < 1341734749 313537 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you connect to that file linked using hg? < 1341734981 916639 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-67-223.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1341735173 212328 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341735199 173540 :stlangbot!~stlangbot@168-80.203-62.cust.bluewin.ch JOIN :#esoteric < 1341735646 523408 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What program was used to make optimized compression PNG file (on esolang wiki) for smaller size? < 1341735772 858341 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :File:Grid processor.png has been reduced from 374 KB to 514 bytes. < 1341735909 984003 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1341736116 376780 :aloril!~aloril@84.249.126.153 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341736401 518466 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1341738150 218189 :stlangbot!~stlangbot@168-80.203-62.cust.bluewin.ch QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1341739398 658588 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-20-28.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1341740214 299009 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In golf, if a player hits his ball into another ball so that the other ball moves out of the way and the first ball slows down and ends up in the space where the other ball is supposed to be, what happens? < 1341740331 73568 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1341740632 954451 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-8-235-248.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341741132 755692 :rodgort!~rodgort@li125-242.members.linode.com QUIT :Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs) < 1341741170 455089 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1341741339 11025 :rodgort!~rodgort@li125-242.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1341742555 689795 :nortti-netbsd!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1341742562 713078 :nortti-netbsd!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1341742689 19452 :nortti-netbsd!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PART :#esoteric < 1341743130 975748 :nortti-netbsd!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1341743290 557882 :nortti-netbsd!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Client Quit < 1341743335 312736 :nortti-netbsd!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1341743367 228680 :nortti-netbsd!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :juhani@misaki$ uname -a < 1341743378 409407 :nortti-netbsd!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :NetBSD misaki 5.1.2 NetBSD 5.1.2 (GENERIC) #0: Thu Feb 2 17:22:10 UTC 2012 builds@b6.netbsd.org:/home/builds/ab/netbsd-5-1-2-RELEASE/i386/201202021012Z-obj/home/builds/ab/netbsd-5-1-2-RELEASE/src/sys/arch/i386/compile/GENERIC i386 < 1341743416 676965 :nortti-netbsd!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :can someone explain how to use multiple channels in ircII? < 1341743477 909145 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ircII? Seriously? :-D < 1341743494 700061 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was faster to build than irssi < 1341743528 911615 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :after compiling lynx for 7 hours I didn't want to do that again < 1341743575 322632 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 hours? < 1341743586 472053 :ogrom!~del@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee QUIT :Quit: Left < 1341743594 47860 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. I'm running netbsd on qemu on my machine < 1341743604 868061 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it runs about the same speed as mid < 1341743615 395035 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*mid-end 486 < 1341743632 605481 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about using virtualization instead of emulation? < 1341743672 239358 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any virtualization programs that don't use loads of memory < 1341743748 957382 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get more memory. < 1341743749 346977 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno about memory, but i’ve used VirtualBox. < 1341743791 497047 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, e.g. 8 or 16 gigabytes of memory is quite cheap nowadays. < 1341743815 379268 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually big part of lynx compilation time was spent building gmake and libraries < 1341743873 163846 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: my computer can be maxed out at 512MB. it just needs rams sticks that I can't find (pc100) < 1341743918 530077 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :also one of the two ram slots seem damaged so 256MB < 1341744011 17535 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get more computer. < 1341744087 686425 :nortti-netbsd!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo < 1341744142 867546 :nortti-netbsd!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kaytan netbsd:ta ja tassa n. 20v vanhassa irkkiclientissa joka oli nopein kaantaa ei oo tukea skandeille < 1341744151 423547 :nortti-netbsd!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :saadan netbsd:ta < 1341744191 567314 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :forget that < 1341744222 806587 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does NetBSD only support gibberishese. :-( < 1341744265 468251 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is finnish. ircII doesn't seem to handle queries < 1341744540 106559 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was under the impression they actually added UTF-8 support to ircII some time ago. < 1341744546 811460 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps i remember incorrectly. < 1341744609 216255 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it cuts of the most significant bit of byte < 1341744641 529194 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm compiling irssi < 1341744820 459761 :nortti-netbsd!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't they have binary packages that work on i586? I have to compile _everything_ from source < 1341744985 971012 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://qdb.us/305435 < 1341745078 910203 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1341745193 655192 :nortti-netbsd!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean building software on irtual machine as fast as 486 is not fun < 1341745197 682842 :nortti-netbsd!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*virtual < 1341745218 320056 :nortti-netbsd!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but oh well. no one is forcing me to use netbsd < 1341745291 95993 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://qdb.us/307755 < 1341745394 457452 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :can someone explain to me how uptime load average numbers work? < 1341745966 272418 :nortti-netbsd!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. so that is how I have 1.38 load < 1341746430 956884 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I made up this: catchCodensityAskT :: (Functor w, Monad m) => w (CodensityAskT w m x) -> CodensityAskT w m x -> CodensityAskT w m x; < 1341746520 450552 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: uptime(1) explains it. < 1341746705 662488 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I don't have man installed... < 1341746725 419354 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a little bit of googling I found it < 1341746749 699507 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why don't you have man installed? < 1341746789 145520 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I have man but is requires retawq < 1341746855 403328 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: Why is #haskell so horrible? < 1341746857 905596 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was it always? < 1341746865 494420 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably < 1341746886 264709 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you go there? < 1341746906 6840 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it’s not that bad. < 1341746912 445208 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you go there? < 1341746918 930430 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's that bad. < 1341746925 343186 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why. < 1341746927 78109 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Habit. < 1341746931 332464 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes it's good. < 1341747331 252807 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made up the catch for CodensityAsk; can it be made finally as well? < 1341748138 170393 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341748526 925221 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(CodensityAsk Predicate) seems to be the exhaustively searchable set monad as in "infinite-search" package. The type can be proven the same by Yoneda and the monad seem to work same way too < 1341748776 742311 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-137-181.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341748787 328767 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-56-224-99.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1341749521 573035 :asiekierka_!~asiekierk@178235038077.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1341749674 883218 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does autoconfig test for fortran 77 compatibility when building irssi? < 1341750220 37155 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a standard check, presumably? < 1341751242 934871 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk JOIN :#esoteric < 1341752480 458288 :MoALTz_!~no@host-92-2-112-60.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341752577 375339 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-8-235-248.as43234.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1341753960 21972 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1341753977 495044 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :autoconfig do a lot of pointless checks in general < 1341754026 246433 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1341754068 557311 :edwardk!~edwardk@pdpc/supporter/professional/edwardk QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1341754079 294716 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :does* < 1341754199 825999 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. it wasn't irssi. it was libtool < 1341754217 841226 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :irssi seems to have it as dependency < 1341758265 228578 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a tool. < 1341758605 213191 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-20-28.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1341758622 394008 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-20-28.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1341759250 781809 :Guest1087!~root@c-98-234-180-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Changing host < 1341759250 970350 :Guest1087!~root@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1341759253 705222 :Guest1087!~root@freebsd/developer/variable NICK :function < 1341759844 897835 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-20-28.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1341759847 482449 :AnotherTest1!~tim@94-224-20-28.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1341761211 222478 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341761622 344241 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1341762153 518782 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341762306 260587 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341764197 564056 :asiekierka_!~asiekierk@178235038077.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1341765163 171821 :asiekierka_!~asiekierk@178235038077.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1341766436 563352 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341766445 554414 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1341766475 608322 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341766689 406838 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have ideas to name data X :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { X :: y z -> X x y (x z); }; data Y :: ((* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { Y :: forall (w :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> *) (x :: * -> *) y z. w x y (x z) -> Y w y z; }; < 1341766735 607262 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :...did you expect an actual answer or did you just want to show off your unreadable piece of code? < 1341766746 579076 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I expect an actual answer. < 1341766771 179735 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you think it is unreadable then maybe it is because you do not understand how to read a Haskell code very well. < 1341766807 293186 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are two GADTs which may have a use in some circumstances. < 1341766811 450096 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well for one I'm pretty sure that one-letter variables with no context to explain them are shunned in any language. < 1341766829 61016 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/variables/identifiers/ < 1341766836 605596 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is the uppercase names (X and Y) which I want to rename that is what I am asking. < 1341767165 581522 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I assume no Europeans here play the lottery? < 1341767258 352264 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer not to play games that are based purely on chance. < 1341767263 404643 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where's the fun < 1341767273 491475 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might as well flip coins and try to guess the next result < 1341767297 280523 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what operations on that type would you define? < 1341767310 281420 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :or those types < 1341767404 37645 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :copumpkin: They are types that may be used somewhere that intends a type containing the other type, sort of < 1341767409 874126 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1341767647 836632 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'd name the first one B < 1341767670 23534 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Why should it be? < 1341767681 490976 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its the blurbird combinator, aka composition < 1341767695 232081 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or thats the way it looks, anyway. :) < 1341767717 657157 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not literally bluebird, ofcourse, but the way the arguments look is reminiscent < 1341767718 280838 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't seem like that to me these are GADTs. < 1341767731 441458 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just the look of the thing, zzo38, thats all < 1341767745 386903 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :X :: y z -> X x y (x z) < 1341767762 502566 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bluebird is B : (y -> z) -> (x -> y) -> (x -> z) < 1341767802 595729 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even tho the thing as NOTHING to do with bluebird, it still has that look, so mnemonically.. < 1341767826 170672 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets see tho < 1341767839 541603 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :X :: f x -> X f g (g x) < 1341767881 237165 :function!~root@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1341767909 929630 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(\(CoYoneda x (X y)) -> x (maybe [] return y)) :: CoYoneda (X [] Maybe) t -> t is one example < 1341767911 591608 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like some sort of widget related to natural transformations < 1341767976 744041 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes maybe it might be something like that < 1341768035 316705 :Guest75632!~root@c-98-234-180-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341768429 908951 :Guest75632!~root@c-98-234-180-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net NICK :trout < 1341768434 309247 :trout!~root@c-98-234-180-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Changing host < 1341768434 460574 :trout!~root@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1341768598 814482 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(CodensityAsk $ \(X q) k -> k 'a' ++ k 'b' ++ maybe [] return q) :: CodensityAsk (X [] Maybe) Char < 1341768858 694147 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are some examples (although there may be more). Now would you understand a bit? And then be able to decide the names? < 1341770330 725175 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1341770370 926220 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1341771418 354448 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@46.208.235.230 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341771929 385522 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1341772049 64485 :soundnfury!~edward@91.85.32.82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341773145 420375 :nortti-netbsd!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pong < 1341773145 972530 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pong < 1341773722 738157 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1341773742 621194 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm is codu down? < 1341773751 944200 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk < 1341773766 806404 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@46.208.235.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's down here. < 1341773803 506868 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same here. < 1341773810 212396 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, fix your damn website. < 1341773843 165831 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it broken? < 1341773851 837456 :Gregor!codu@codu.org QUIT :Quit: Coyote finally caught me > 1341773953 45766 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341773954 147979 :glogbot!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1341773954 544361 :glogbackup!~glogbacku@64.31.59.246 PART :#esoteric < 1341773954 743834 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric > 1341773957 166670 JOIN :#esoteric > 1341773957 682255 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341774006 263930 :glogbackup!~glogbacku@64.31.59.246 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341774025 930674 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: spirity.org requires authorization < 1341774038 898097 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this intended? < 1341774047 72038 :Gregor!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1341774121 902274 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: for the time being. < 1341774155 540417 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: wait are you getting an auth challenge? < 1341774161 586372 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I'm just getting a 403 < 1341774178 344521 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am getting auth dialog < 1341774185 544025 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay. < 1341774201 369113 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: I'm trying to set up subdomains properly. < 1341774203 432121 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I press esc I get 401 < 1341774226 806303 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :right now my DNS has an A record where * points to my IP. < 1341774231 635865 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all subdomains go to the same IP. < 1341774262 985783 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think that's... wrong. < 1341774295 495850 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1341774309 146572 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I'm not sure how I can have multiple virtual hosts on the same IP. < 1341774312 623898 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it use reverse DNS or something? < 1341774363 679366 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh nevermind < 1341774365 645433 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Host header. < 1341774376 506241 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you forgot _that_? < 1341774389 915221 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... guess so. < 1341774397 833405 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking at the DNS/IP level. < 1341774400 58437 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the... HTTP level. < 1341774419 137244 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you don't try to < 1341774443 864827 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the realm same for the auth? < 1341774446 805798 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :+serve different ftp pages from subdomains it seems to be ok < 1341774456 886683 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or gopher pages < 1341774537 788041 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, for other protocols I would need seperate IPs, right? < 1341774544 868010 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or can you do DNS tricks? < 1341774575 888495 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I'm confused about is why spirity.org is asking for auth < 1341774583 632073 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it should just be a 404 or something like that. < 1341774626 728444 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the auth should only be a for a subdomain. < 1341774637 683930 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange < 1341774643 37129 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main site shouldn't exist at all ATM. < 1341774666 561060 :ernesto1!~canaima@190.199.231.176 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341774701 611282 :ernesto1!~canaima@190.199.231.176 PART :#esoteric < 1341774705 21628 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, https requires separate IPs per host in general. You may be able to get away with subdomains, if you have a wildcard SSL cert (*.foo.net for example, though plain foo.net wouldn't work then) < 1341774723 852460 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically the server needs to select the SSL cert to use before it gets the Host header < 1341774753 138825 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah my current cert isn't a wildcard (I didn't even know that was a thing) < 1341774768 512727 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a thing, but there is no way afaik to say "foo.net or *.foo.net" < 1341774773 639984 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is kind of stupid < 1341774807 377627 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I have no idea how you make them, I just know they exist (and I have run into that annoying foo.net fail thingy a few times) < 1341774811 885442 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could do email-based verification. < 1341774816 178489 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of domain. < 1341774822 298440 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1341774849 82384 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1341774849 851652 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. < 1341774852 450862 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1341774871 829732 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :do your site do spdy? < 1341774887 170741 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not. < 1341774893 931072 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange that nginx allows you to configure ssl certs per virtual host. < 1341774907 611668 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it needs the Host header to determine which virtual host to use, and it needs the cert to get the Host header. < 1341774920 650568 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, maybe that happens because the generic way the config is parsed or something? < 1341774939 855678 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, or does the same block or whatever allow you to define ip-based virtual hosts? < 1341774942 415225 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would explain it < 1341774953 430554 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :IP or hostname < 1341774958 647078 :nortti-netbsd!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Quit: se you if I get irssi building not to hang < 1341774959 125847 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :there you have it then < 1341774970 489034 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ssl cert option only makes sense for IP based virtual hosts < 1341775059 567667 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I got my cert through a free CA, and they seem to have email-based verification instead of domain name verification < 1341775067 276028 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps that doesn't apply to HTTPs though. < 1341775070 311568 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*HTTPS < 1341775078 121563 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, that is kind of weird < 1341775082 297426 :Deewiant!~deewiant@109.75.188.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: nginx doesn't yet support SPDY (but there's a beta batch for it, so it's probably coming "soon") < 1341775096 191755 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPDY? < 1341775103 15302 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, google it < 1341775153 591563 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's another attempt by Google to redefine web standards. < 1341775180 41650 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, well, at least they try to make their redefinitions open, unlike some other vendors < 1341775193 916883 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. is it the one they try to replace https with? < 1341775196 517234 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, didn't it improve the bandwidth usage and response time quite a bit? < 1341775200 665013 :AnotherTest1!~tim@94-224-20-28.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1341775222 957174 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm "In June 2012 NGINX, Inc. announced support for SPDY in the open source web server Nginx.[32]" < 1341775230 16317 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that might refer to the beta patch < 1341775235 694692 :Deewiant!~deewiant@109.75.188.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1341775240 132928 :Deewiant!~deewiant@109.75.188.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mailman.nginx.org/pipermail/nginx-devel/2012-June/002343.html < 1341775315 552563 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the statelessness of HTTP, it makes implementation of simple clients... simple. < 1341775416 792108 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm looks like spdy allows encryption and name based virtual hosts < 1341775420 43044 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly < 1341775484 914459 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just use SSH if you want secure connections, instead of using HTTPS and HTML and all of that stuff. SSH allows you to use key based authentication and operates by command-line. < 1341775487 640490 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :out of the box nginx actually doesn't support digest auth < 1341775498 692468 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why I'm using basic auth, because I don't feel like recompiling it with the digest auth module. < 1341775531 464786 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, ... ssh and https have completely different uses in many cases. < 1341775539 2720 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither can replace the other < 1341775559 36814 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, really? no digest? < 1341775565 751065 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I guess basic works fine over https < 1341775652 484155 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :basic auth never expires right? < 1341775655 166712 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or how does that work? < 1341775657 355473 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm no idea < 1341775666 127024 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that might be an issue < 1341775666 349953 :Deewiant!~deewiant@109.75.188.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both basic and digest are broken without https anyway, and if you have https basic is fine < 1341775667 893082 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be why nortti is getting an auth challenge and I'm getting a 403 < 1341775681 818753 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes that is true they do have different use but there are many things that SSH just does better but they use HTTPS (or even insecure HTTP) anyways < 1341775682 17777 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, restart browser? < 1341775682 532576 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though I authenticated like... yesterday. < 1341775695 896516 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... but I'm using it. :P < 1341775713 297329 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, my browser is set to restore the tabs when it opens < 1341775718 14655 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for me that is a non-issue < 1341775750 647996 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I need to sleep, cya < 1341775787 10526 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah oka. < 1341775789 92715 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*okay < 1341775798 842706 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm getting the auth challenge. < 1341775808 904851 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently basic auth lasts indefinitely.. < 1341775823 278272 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how... basic. :P < 1341775857 149302 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah I have no clue what's happening. so far nginx has been a pain to configure correctly. < 1341775906 676830 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could even run other protocols over SSH if you need to, but often just SSH itself should do < 1341775939 750528 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :text editing on a laggy ssh session is painful. :( < 1341775970 670286 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it can be if it is not a local network; but you could just edit the file locally and then use remote copy. < 1341775979 325902 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1341775986 263399 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :once I have my server config < 1341775994 264993 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I plan to use git to do automatic transfers < 1341776005 174847 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :via update hook < 1341776013 410069 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1341776052 520675 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so any push to the remote repo will automatically reset --hard a repo in the server root. < 1341776083 923532 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*web server root < 1341776161 126770 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah okay. < 1341776165 268406 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for now I won't use subdomains. < 1341776199 979641 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only real benefit is that cookies don't transfer across subdomains. otherwise it's largely cosmetic. < 1341776480 196694 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-97-158-132.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341776499 18308 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-97-158-132.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1341776825 117123 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-2-97-158-132.as13285.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1341776983 626970 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-137-181.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1341776986 362817 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-142-11.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341777177 423232 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1341777335 462394 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :To purchase stuff by internet, implement this protocol (keep the existing ones too but deprecate them): You connect to the online store, figure out how much money it is worth, connect using SSH to your account with money, issue a split command with the amount you need to pay to create a new account, send key of new account, merchant transfer to their own account, and then approve payment. < 1341777346 339674 :asiekierka_!~asiekierk@178235038077.elblag.vectranet.pl NICK :asiekierka < 1341777425 159885 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But first you have to go to some store and pay them in cash for the SSH account, and the merchant when receiving money, go to some store or bank to receive the cash. < 1341777560 317597 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :HTTPS is a stupid way to do internet money transfer. < 1341777630 649565 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what is stupid about it < 1341777664 115383 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I described. < 1341777722 890072 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didnt see you describe it. repeat? < 1341777860 88944 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :For one thing you need to fill in all forms, you need HTML, JavaScript, popup ads, and various special accounts (you cannot simply go to the bank and do it), there are some security issues (scams, frauds, homograph attacks, etc), and HTTP is for hypertext transfer protocol, for documents not for other things < 1341777873 197177 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways, SSH use key based authentication. < 1341778009 484459 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSH is just a more secure protocol. < 1341778014 88474 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i think you're just doing it wrong < 1341778061 595649 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :https is cryptographically secure as long as you trust the certificate authority (and don't accept invalid certificates) < 1341778085 8135 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :js, popup ads, etc. can be disabled easily without disabling https < 1341778104 995559 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i don't know what special accounts you are talking about, but i suspect they are accounts that most people already have. < 1341778167 737040 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cryptographically, yes. But that is not the only issue. Anyways you need the same, if they accept PayPal then you need PayPal, if they accept MasterCard then you should need MasterCard instead; with my scheme you need just your service provider and the various banks have agreement with each other (by law), then you can pay them if there is such chain. < 1341778187 204142 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need no bank account, you need no credit card, no gift card, just pay. < 1341778204 381214 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoever you are paying, does not need any of these things either. < 1341778218 857795 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keep the current system but compatibility purpose but deprecate it. < 1341778249 90419 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you are a bit crazy < 1341778262 92341 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what you are describing is basically covered by bitcoin < 1341778266 242153 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps that is true but I think it is irrelevant. < 1341778275 967012 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no I do not quite mean like bitcoin. < 1341778323 379946 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :the system you described requires about the same amount of work to do a transaction as bitcoin < 1341778337 374366 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :paypal is a hell of a lot easier to use < 1341778499 658460 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it does not require a lot of work if you have paid the bank ahead of time a large sum of money which you use to pay various merchants by internet. No forms to fill, no web pages to view, no virtual shopping cart, just ssh key file amount of money go. < 1341778544 294406 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keep PayPal if some people prefer it but when you accept that method mark it as deprecated and specify SSH as preferred method. < 1341778560 453190 :coppro!~scshunt@ascorbic-acid.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :most paypal users do not know what deprecated means < 1341778587 430457 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then write "warning" instead of "deprecated". < 1341778614 575101 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or specify in other words. < 1341778667 163031 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1341779423 436744 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@178235038077.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1341779596 978300 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :most paypal users do not know what SSH key file means < 1341779676 532790 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, like I said, they can use PayPal if they want, even though its use should be discouraged. < 1341779693 592755 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-139-150.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341779710 632117 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's a good way to make a new system catch on < 1341779730 163427 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-142-11.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1341779731 383913 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hey you can keep doing it the old way if you like, but we'd rather you did this much more difficult thing!" < 1341779996 458104 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-137-120.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341780018 163041 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-139-150.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1341780033 482324 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1341780877 982162 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@46.208.235.230 PART :#esoteric < 1341782029 264019 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting. there is a port of mksh to android < 1341782162 874726 :MoALTz_!~no@host-92-2-112-60.as43234.net QUIT :Quit: bbl < 1341783708 552093 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1341783739 998619 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1341783921 237337 :TeruFSX!~quassel@65-128-161-243.mpls.qwest.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1341784029 699984 :TeruFSX!~quassel@65-128-161-243.mpls.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341784309 162951 :nortti_!nortti@smar.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1341784945 970573 :nortti_!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ping < 1341784946 639051 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pong < 1341784983 202020 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1341784999 753879 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oon less botti < 1341785027 421568 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1341785041 822316 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :More like "enoobotti". < 1341785049 174558 :nortti_!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what does that mean? < 1341785079 716941 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno, i don't speak finnish < 1341785083 601606 :nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1341785221 148256 :nortti_!nortti@smar.fi NICK :nortti < 1341787100 796306 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :would it be a bad idea to chmod o-rx /etc ? < 1341787124 613586 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: what is in there in your system? < 1341787124 852948 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine some user program might need to read a config file from there. < 1341787151 537216 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least /etc/passwd is read by some programs < 1341787153 130609 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: the kitchen sink. Debian loves /etc < 1341787156 523451 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :like irssi < 1341787187 220870 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recall using a Gentoo box where /etc was o-r < 1341787212 274750 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing bad happened that I recall. but I didn't try much. < 1341787265 679855 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah so I'll just leave /etc open... < 1341787413 528614 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah in Debian there's almost guaranteed to be a non-root app that needs to reads its default config from /etc < 1341787431 984991 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :/etc/profile < 1341787545 8705 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but chmod o-r /home; chmod o-rx /home/* < 1341787547 700703 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems pretty reasonable < 1341787585 571077 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I'm managing a shared host or anything, but... yak shaving is my speciality. < 1341787624 917552 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: you probably know this, but o-r means programs can look up files in /etc, but only if they can guess the name < 1341787657 352306 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is probably all a reasonable program does < 1341787678 533683 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it seems to work differently for x then. < 1341787688 723896 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't cd into a directory if a parent isn't +x < 1341787699 43987 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or... maybe I'm mistaken? < 1341787750 93173 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, nevermind < 1341787977 412434 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone save me a lot of time and energy by giving me an rsync command that exactly duplicates a source directory and is easy to recover when the transfer inevitably breaks halfway through < 1341788040 788289 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use rsync -avX < 1341788046 680807 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :-a is the main one. < 1341788058 14032 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it depends on what you mean by "exactly" < 1341788073 894863 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you want to do with hard links, for example. < 1341788120 344168 :nortti_!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1341788199 747512 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh i dont care what happens < 1341788203 467579 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: --delete is sometimes handy < 1341788204 822676 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :since there are none < 1341788214 79602 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my target is empty < 1341788226 207460 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is -a < 1341788251 709699 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"archive mode", it's a shorthand for a bunch of other options. < 1341788261 516037 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :kk < 1341788272 510653 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :recursive, preserve symlink as symlinks, preserve permissions, preserve modification times < 1341788275 526546 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think some other stuff. < 1341788282 860859 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :and X? < 1341788297 501191 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :preserve extended attributes < 1341788317 651873 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might also want -H (preserve hard links) and -A (preserve access control lists) but I didn't see a need. < 1341788318 141830 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1341788349 160634 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and --delete is nice if you want the destination to look exactly like the source when you're done < 1341788377 49821 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there shouldn't be any orphaned files to delete if the target is empty right? < 1341788385 343397 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also --delete-excluded, if you changed your exclude options and want the copy to delete them too. < 1341788388 346123 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: right < 1341788398 534181 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :okie < 1341788427 896530 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has an exclude file in his home that excludes a bunch of directories he doesn't really need backups of.
< 1341788467 336328 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like .cache for example. < 1341788522 400591 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :.mozilla/firefox/*/Cache/* is another good one. < 1341788533 795908 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything with "cache" in the name. :P < 1341788549 12897 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also .cpan, .ghc, and everything in .cabal except for the config. < 1341788575 369529 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's probably countless other stuff to exclude... I just haven't. < 1341788601 110557 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just copying one very large subdir, so i pretty much want everything in it to go < 1341788622 143960 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how large? < 1341788655 12421 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh i dunno, many gigs. enough that i used -z. < 1341788817 676212 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be nice if rsync had an option that let you insert a script to execute instead of --delete < 1341788822 277046 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :granted that's a huge security problem. < 1341788844 119922 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20120708T122219Z.html :D < 1341788849 125813 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but basically it would be nice if you could rename target files that were deleted in the source dir to have a ~ postfix < 1341788861 174433 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :only in haskell... < 1341788880 760401 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1341788970 617905 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :some people would interpret this as a benefit of using Haskell, but I interpret it as a flaw in thinking that goes something like: "oh Haskell has a great type system, therefore my code is correct!" < 1341788993 252327 :kallisti!~eris@h167.45.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which results in less testing. < 1341789339 315692 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do test the Haskell programs. < 1341789602 138299 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But do you prove their correctness? < 1341789923 12376 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would need to be done by mathematics. < 1341790068 166227 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION also chuckles at the last paragraph of http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/w7zd8/i_never_tested_this_code_before_releasing_it/c5b5n26?context=1
< 1341790410 219602 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Knuth once wrote: Warning: I have only proven this program correct, not tested it. < 1341790662 344398 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1341790663 245934 :nortti_!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1341790721 860960 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You (or someone) said my type data X :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { X :: y z -> X x y (x z); }; is related to widget for natural transformation; is it? That still doesn't tell me exactly to rename < 1341790887 103693 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i definitely didn't say that, since i don't know what that is < 1341791036 958830 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not mean you personally. < 1341791042 790750 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I means someone in this channel. < 1341791084 185260 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well edwardk is my prime suspect and is not currently present < 1341791252 129306 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-137-120.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1341791302 983406 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know what is it called if a tensor category satisfying: f . g = f *** g (for all f and g as long as the types match) < 1341791367 360698 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-158-48.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1341791847 615231 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk didn't know about that X either. But what would you think this datatype (GADT) seems to be? < 1341791860 204280 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can understand some uses of it, but I don't know what to call it. < 1341791897 664204 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :call it zzothing < 1341791903 976088 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzonad