00:03:25 <itidus21> pretty cool http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/images/1/18/Sm4mzx_gameplay.png
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00:06:23 <zzo38> That is one MegaZeux game.
00:07:00 <zzo38> Without the animation of gameplay it does not explain the game well, though.
00:07:28 <itidus21> i think it's good when you can't infer much from a screenshot
00:07:46 <Vorpal> ais523\itexplode, what is up with that nick?
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00:08:58 <zzo38> Do you like this game? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/screen.png
00:09:40 <itidus21> that is the greatest computer game ever to exist
00:11:39 <zzo38> Maybe you like this MegaZeux game? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/potionconf/potion_of_confusing.zip (Incomplete; you also need MegaZeux to run this game)
00:12:48 <itidus21> i have long ago abandoned enjoying fiction
00:13:48 <itidus21> i don't know what the trick is to enjoying fiction
00:15:18 <itidus21> when i was younger i used to believe that it was imbued with wisdom in some way
00:15:30 <itidus21> that i could get something out of it
00:17:00 <itidus21> that i could just enjoy it in and of itself
00:22:07 <Vorpal> itidus21, most fiction has nothing to do with wisdom (sure there are cases where there they are related)
00:22:13 <Vorpal> it is just for enjoyment
00:22:25 <Vorpal> itidus21, I guess you don't enjoy computer games or movies either then?
00:23:10 <Vorpal> oh well, everyone is different
00:24:02 <Vorpal> comics? Never been into that
00:24:18 <Vorpal> itidus21, anyway that is equally fiction
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00:24:31 <zzo38> Computer game involve things other than just fictional story
00:24:57 <zzo38> (Some may not even involve story at all; or a story will be added on afterward and is not really a part of the game)
00:25:01 <itidus21> im feeling too sleepy to make sense.. but well i had enouhg sleep
00:25:07 <Vorpal> zzo38, yes... but a story is an important part of a lot of computer games (except for really simple ones like, say, tetris or minesweeper).
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00:25:54 <Vorpal> most of the games I tend to play are heavily story-oriented, or at least features a story as an important part
00:27:26 <zzo38> Good story oriented computer games include text adventure games are good game
00:27:44 <itidus21> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verisimilitude
00:28:57 <Vorpal> zzo38, did you just say that?
00:30:58 <zzo38> Text adventure games can resemble a role-playing game but by computer and single-player, and of course the computer does not understand everything you are trying to do
00:31:19 <Vorpal> RPGs can be single player
00:31:44 <zzo38> Yes they can be; they can even be no-player; but that is not what is relevant
00:33:36 <Vorpal> zzo38, where was your web server now again?
00:34:38 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/ but there is nothing there; you need the filename
00:35:19 <zzo38> I already posted the filenames above, though
00:35:31 <Vorpal> zzo38, it just has a link to gopher that I can't open
00:35:43 <zzo38> Yes I know, like I said you need the filename
00:39:26 <zzo38> In Dungeons&Dragons game I have figured out a plan to continue (I need the chancellor's autograph); I figured out, I now need a wig and I need to cut off his beard and moustache, etc. And take his belongings and destroy them (unless it is money, in which case I can exchange them for gold and give the gold coins to the king).
00:39:52 <zzo38> However I might need a Time Hop spell of a greater duration than normal.
00:42:52 <zzo38> Perhaps if he refuses to give me his autograph, I can find his signature in the royal documents and if I find one describing a bad law that he is trying to pass, I can steal that document.
00:45:27 <zzo38> In order to kill the demon I think I will need to do many other things first, including trick the chancellor, kill the chancellor, not letanyone know he is dead, and many political issues, especially since he did many bad things and stole the king (so we need to find the king too), and then need help from a beholder and from forcing the demon to chase us around the world.
00:45:33 <itidus21> i suppose i still like fiction
00:45:41 <zzo38> I already have some of the tools I need, such as astrolabe and shovel.
00:48:09 <zzo38> The chancellor is bald, therefore I will need a wig.
00:48:23 <zzo38> And something to force it to stay on his head.
00:49:11 <zzo38> And then the castle will be restored to its rightful king (whom I have never seen, so this might be difficult).
00:54:53 <zzo38> The royal wizard is also helping and he also hates the chancellor like I have also realized he was doing bad things, after using a disguise to go into the king's chamber I could find out more information and now I can confirm the chancellor is on the same team as the demon and they do evil jobs for each other.
00:55:34 <zzo38> However, even though the royal wizard would also want the chancellor dead, I think it is best that he does not know yet; I think it is even best that even I do not know yet, therefore I can cast Modify Memory on myself.
00:56:31 <zzo38> All I found in the king's bed was a dummy.
00:57:25 <itidus21> so i got megazeux and tried the super mario demo. pretty cool that they did all that in textmode
00:58:08 <zzo38> Yes it is. Did you try the Caverns of Zeux, Forest of Zeux, etc? Did you try my MegaZeux games (I linked two of them)?
01:00:10 <itidus21> the thing about it is, i have an obsession with super mario bros.
01:01:06 <zzo38> I have once made up a Action Replay cheat code for Super Mario Land to turn off the music but keep the sound effect on.
01:02:20 <itidus21> ok. s/^... /i have an interest in super mario bros./
01:03:00 <FireFly> that substitution doesn't make sense
01:03:26 <zzo38> I have played Super Mario Bros too I wanted to make it invisible Mario to make the game more difficult, I managed to do so
01:04:10 <itidus21> ok. s/i have an obsession with super mario bros/i have an interest in super mario bros/
01:04:32 <itidus21> zzo38 reminds me of the kinds of things truely obsessed people do
01:15:40 <itidus21> i mean in other words.. i have done nothing to truely represent an obsession with it
01:15:49 <itidus21> i havent devoted real time and energy
01:16:44 <zzo38> Try to play the computer games that I made up, see if you can understand it
01:21:26 <itidus21> i like the term computer games because the computer is really the singular element distinguishing them from other games
01:22:16 <itidus21> board games and card games can be exactly the same regardless of whether they're played on a computer for example
01:23:03 <itidus21> also there exists sound-only games designed with the blind in mind
01:23:51 <zzo38> Yes there are some
01:24:26 <itidus21> and some interactive fiction is like choose your own adventure books and the like doesn't require a computer
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02:13:21 <zzo38> edwardk: O, you are on this channel too now?
02:13:36 <edwardk> i wander back after a while and everyone thinks its strange ;)
02:13:47 <edwardk> i used to lurk in here more regularly
02:14:00 <zzo38> OK. Well, I suppose either I did not notice or I forgot.
02:14:02 <olsner> used to? how long ago was that?
02:14:10 <zzo38> But it is not a problem nevertheless.
02:14:20 <olsner> I don't recall seeing you here before yesterday :)
02:14:25 <edwardk> no worries. =) I stalked kmc in. ;)
02:14:43 <edwardk> olsner: i chattered with you and oklopol and some of the others a few years ago
02:14:55 <edwardk> he had some silly language
02:15:29 <olsner> oh, that time, that was a while before I started coming here regularly
02:15:30 <edwardk> and we talked about kata, so it was probably ~4 years back
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02:15:56 <olsner> if it was when everyone was inventing a silly human language
02:17:05 <edwardk> i mostly wandered away because i switched irc clients and forgot to add this one back to the list of what i log into
02:17:14 <zzo38> Does the class codensity monad of a commutative idempotent monoid form a set?
02:17:36 <zzo38> edwardk: What IRC client did you used to use and what you switched to?
02:17:38 <edwardk> hrmm good question, seems like it would
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02:18:35 <zzo38> The class density comonad of a copeanoid (my Copeanoid class) is a non-empty list comonad even with the same meanings of duplicate and extract.
02:18:40 <edwardk> zzo38: i used to use pidgin, then adium, then xchat, now i use textual
02:19:07 <edwardk> you can get the non-empty list monad just by using Free Semigroup
02:19:12 <olsner> I wonder if reddit also got hit by the leap second bug
02:19:22 <zzo38> edwardk: And yes I did realize that too!
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02:20:03 <edwardk> and Maybe as Free Default, if you use class Algebra f r where phi :: f r -> r then Free (Algebra f) is just the free monad over the f functor
02:20:49 <zzo38> You used four kind of IRC clients? I just wrote an IRC client and before I used this, I used telnet to connect to IRC, which does not work so well.
02:21:16 <edwardk> well, this was recently. before that i used others. i think i first used ircii
02:21:21 <olsner> wow, using telnet for IRC, that's hardcore
02:21:37 <edwardk> i used to use bitchx way back when as well
02:21:48 <olsner> otoh, I should not be surprised that the world's last gopher user would also try that :)
02:21:49 <edwardk> but its hard to take any project with a name like that seriously
02:22:08 <edwardk> i remember gopher. not fondly, but i remember it. =)
02:22:25 <edwardk> it was pretty much my first exposure to the internet at large coming out of the bbs world
02:22:29 <zzo38> Now I use PHIRC which unlike using telnet, allows you to backspace, does syntax highlighting, support macros, hides the password, and auto-pong and so on too
02:22:53 <zzo38> edwardk: Gopher and BBS are still used somewhat (and I am not the only one).
02:22:54 <edwardk> oh and i guess i still use colloquy when i want to irc from the ipad
02:23:22 <shachaf> edwardk: kmc will be gone for two weeks soon, I hear!
02:23:25 <edwardk> i used to be overly obsessed with the detroit area bbs scene
02:23:47 <edwardk> er both ACKnowledged and, "ack!"
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02:24:43 <mroman> An IRC client with syntax highlighting?
02:24:43 <zzo38> BBS systems today are commonly Synchronet and are accessed by internet rather than telephone. Usually telnet is used, however Synchronet also supports rlogin, SSH, NNTP, SMTP, HTTP (including server-side JavaScript), gopher, FTP, and IRC.
02:25:17 <edwardk> i actually wrote a FOSSIL driver around 92 or so that was used to move the regional fidonet hub onto the internet for mail exchange
02:25:18 <zzo38> mroman: Yes. Sender is cyan, command is bright white, short parameters are white, long parameters are bright blue (the colon in front is normal white, though).
02:26:20 <edwardk> used to run bbs's off of OS/2 and DESQview. sheesh, i'd forgotten about DESQview
02:28:11 <edwardk> i wrote a bbs software like TAG called 'psychosys', and a bunch of door games that were used by a lot of ISPs in the area - yes, i was a kid, and it sounded edgy.
02:28:42 <olsner> I have seen a BBS once
02:28:54 <zzo38> Do you still have any of those door games, and are they compatible with Synchronet?
02:29:29 <edwardk> i might have the source to one or two of them, but keep in mind these are DOS BBS doors, written in turbo pascal probably 5.0, 5.5 or 6.0
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02:29:46 <edwardk> and they are designed to talk to an old dos era fossil driver
02:30:07 * shachaf complains vaguely about ptrace.
02:30:09 <itidus21> is a door game about going from room to room via doors?
02:30:20 <olsner> edwardk: what's a "door" in this context?
02:30:23 <zzo38> Synchronet does support DOS programs and does support FOSSIL as well, and possibly the source codes could be adjusted a bit to compile for a free compiler.
02:30:53 <edwardk> oh, no, door games were where you'd step out of the bbs and into a separate application that would take over the connection and play, the BBS would basically terminate but stay resident, the door would take up the rest of the memory and start running
02:31:01 <zzo38> I still play BBS door games, and access FidoNet and stuff, today, on X-BIT. Telnet to x-bit.org port 23 you need an account
02:31:17 <edwardk> and then when they came back in from the door the BBS would take back over interaction
02:31:53 <edwardk> the door protocol was also how the mail loader that would deal with most fidonet era BBSs would launch the mail exchanger.
02:32:20 <edwardk> it'd pick up the line, check to see if it was another bbs calling that wanted to toss mail, then dump into that mode before hanging up, or it'd go to the usual bbs startup
02:32:39 <edwardk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBS_door
02:32:44 <zzo38> Some modern door games are written in server-side JavaScript (which Synchronet supports).
02:33:09 <edwardk> if i'm going to write a door in javascript i might as well just run it in the browser ;)
02:33:10 <zzo38> That toss mail stuff still works today using QWK.
02:33:39 <edwardk> i used to work with paul williams from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAG_(BBS)
02:33:40 <mroman> I thought syntax highlighting for code.
02:33:58 <edwardk> and knew a number of the telegard guys as well
02:34:29 <edwardk> mostly by dint of being an obnoxious obsessive kid who would chat with anyone ;)
02:35:10 <olsner> if everyone built their BBS:es on z/VM, I guess doors would be done as virtual machines
02:35:32 <zzo38> There still are many Synchronet BBSes today and many of the modern games are written in JavaScript, although to the client it is the same as if it were a DOS program or native program.
02:36:49 <edwardk> sadly none of the ones out of michigan descend from the horst mann bbs list era ;)
02:36:55 <zzo38> One game I like best is Word Warp, which I still play today. Scores are kept per month.
02:37:53 <edwardk> http://bbslist.textfiles.com/313/ has a lot of the wrong names for sysops, etc. odd
02:38:03 <zzo38> edwardk: Well, yes, they are new ones since they are by internet instead of telephone, and as far as I know the only software that existed in those days for telephone BBS and now works with internet BBS is Synchronet. So if they have a Synchronet BBS, it is possible for it to still exist today on the internet.
02:39:01 <edwardk> i found an old 5 1/4" floppy from that era with some of my old pascal source code on it
02:39:09 <edwardk> but i don't have anything to read it with =(
02:40:09 <zzo38> I will tell you what I have used for that purpose: I used a compiler with 5 1/4" floppy drive and connect it to a laptop computer by serial port.
02:40:15 <edwardk> it should have a little populous style over-world 320x200 game engine for rendering the overland map from my mud, a little novalogic "voxel" style cave exploration engine, etc
02:41:30 <edwardk> my mom mentioned she found some of my even older 5 1/4" floppies from when i used CP/M =/
02:41:37 <edwardk> those will be even more awkward to read
02:42:03 <edwardk> mostly just used to boot into it from the commodore 128
02:42:17 <edwardk> i wound up moving to the PC because of turbo pascal. it gave me a migration path ;)
02:42:37 <edwardk> (tp 3.0 or so had both CP/M and DOS versions)
02:42:51 <zzo38> I sometimes write computer game programs in QBASIC.
02:43:06 <edwardk> i'm not that masochistic ;)
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02:43:40 <zzo38> All of these program in public domain
02:43:53 <zzo38> Including source-codes.
02:44:02 <zzo38> I can show it to you if you want to.
02:44:42 <edwardk> i wrote my disassembler on a lark when i was 8 or so when i lied and told a kid i'd written one and had to make good, and after i wrote the little assembly monitor i used to enter code, the only time i ever bothered with basic on the c64 was when forced.
02:45:05 <edwardk> quickbasic programs? no thanks =)
02:45:42 <zzo38> Some people have said these are good game
02:46:21 <zzo38> edwardk: Also, can you show me how you can make free monad over the functor by class Algebra f r where phi :: f r -> r
02:46:51 <edwardk> its in ralf hinze's article
02:46:54 <zzo38> (And what it has to do with algebra)
02:47:13 <edwardk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-algebra
02:47:53 <edwardk> so make an instance of Algebra for say, instance Algebra f (Mu f) where phi = In
02:48:50 <edwardk> or instance Algebra f (TheOtherFree f a) were phi = TheOtherFree
02:49:04 <edwardk> (using TheOtherFree for the constructor of the more traditonal free monad)
02:49:18 <edwardk> instance Algebra f (Free (Algebra f))
02:49:36 <edwardk> all of those are fun to construct
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02:50:26 <edwardk> do make the cofree comonad you need f-coalgebras
02:50:39 <edwardk> class Coalgebra f a where psi :: a -> f a
02:50:59 <edwardk> phi and psi are traditional, but not necessary names
02:51:31 <zzo38> I thought what you called phi there seems what is called alpha in the Wikipedia article? Or am I doing something wrong?
02:52:31 <edwardk> you may find http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.41.125 useful in understanding them
02:53:14 <edwardk> my old catamorphism knol uses them, http://comonad.com/haskell/catamorphisms.html
02:54:17 <zzo38> I do not have access to CiteseerX
02:55:45 <itidus21> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/emeijer/Papers/fpca91.pdf
02:56:34 <itidus21> actually theres a .ps link on the site itself
02:56:58 <itidus21> zzo38: it's apparently a free article
03:13:21 <zzo38> What is the isomorphism between these free monads?
03:32:56 <zzo38> Please tell me if you have any suggestion relating to ITMCK then I may add it in if I think it is a good idea.
03:34:06 <zzo38> There are some features I wanted to add on, I may do so in later version but not in first version.
03:36:21 <zzo38> itidus21: I like many kind of music not all
03:36:39 <itidus21> i don't know why but I have never had much interest in audio
03:37:12 <itidus21> it's like how children (probably) don't have any interest in politics
03:37:32 <itidus21> maybe it is cognitive dissonance
03:38:19 <itidus21> i can't whistle, i can't play any instruments, i've never created a song
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03:47:23 <zzo38> I have even made up music with Bohlen-Pierce too.
03:49:46 <coppro> who invitied edwardk in here?
03:49:49 <coppro> this channel is ruined
03:50:04 <zzo38> coppro: edwardk sometimes come in here I do not think that makes the channel ruined
03:50:17 <coppro> zzo38: it was sarcasm :)
03:52:55 <olsner> coppro: if you are a badperson, maybe it was you who ruined the channel?
03:54:23 <itidus21> im confident that i destroy every social system i am a part of
03:55:42 -!- coppro has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: coppro, edwardk, itidus21 (ex officio), dbelange | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
03:55:50 <zzo38> If you have any complaint against ITMCK you can file the complaint in here: https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/itmck
03:57:50 <itidus21> This is program to write Impulse Tracker files.
03:58:00 <zzo38> Yes, that is what it is.
03:59:23 <itidus21> do you think it is cheating to use a non-standard memory mapper for NES/Famicom homebrew?
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04:00:52 <itidus21> There are many ambitions I have in life. One of them is to make a NES/Famicom rom.
04:02:02 <itidus21> if i cared about brainfuck, i could add to my list of ambitions the ambition of creating a NES rom brainfuck interpreter
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04:03:01 <itidus21> http://pdroms.de/files/nintendoentertainmentsystem/khs-nes-brainfuck
04:03:32 <itidus21> another ambition completed vicariously
04:05:05 <olsner> itidus21: of course it has been done :)
04:05:52 <itidus21> well i bet there isn't a dvd where you can code brainfuck from the remote control yet
04:06:08 <itidus21> then again not sure if a dvd can do that
04:06:12 <olsner> not sure DVD is turing complete at all
04:06:27 <olsner> bluray can, but the tools for it are all proprietary and yucky
04:06:59 <zzo38> At least DVD does have more buttons, you can use all the numbers 1 to 99, I think.
04:07:10 <itidus21> i read today about some choose your own adventure dvd on wikipedia.. and of course they filed a patent!
04:07:45 <itidus21> so yes its a stupid idea to do
04:13:22 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Lully I admire this man
04:13:31 <coppro> he died due to complications arising from a conducting injury
04:13:38 <coppro> conducting being the musical thing
04:13:58 <coppro> xkcd: died in a conducting accident
04:14:10 <itidus21> to me, esolangs are useful for the same reasons as psychedelics
04:14:32 <pikhq> coppro: How does that even *happen*?
04:15:49 <itidus21> He was beating time by banging a long staff (a precursor to the bton) against the floor, as was the common practice at the time, when he struck his toe, creating an abscess. The wound turned gangrenous, but Lully refused to have his toe amputated and the gangrene spread, resulting in his death on 22 March.
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06:24:18 <zzo38> I made up a list of fake character of Super Smash Brothers, including: Prof.Oak, Imakuni?, Kaiji, Kjugobe, Miyamoto, Urza, TV repair man.
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06:25:29 <itidus21> zzo38: oh i have a mockup to show you
06:25:33 <zzo38> These are seven columns on a sheet of paper. The rows are: (up)XY, (left/right), (down), A, A(up), A(left/right), A(down), B, B(up), B(left/right), B(down), C(up), C(left/right), C(down), Z, LR, D(up), D(left/right), D(down), FINAL.
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06:26:08 <zzo38> (I did not actually write (up) and stuff like that; I wrote the arrows.)
06:28:37 <zzo38> Miyamoto's FINAL is to break the game and it won't work anymore until you push RESET (so the match ends with no winner, and if it is tournament mode, you also have to start the tournament all over again).
06:29:39 <zzo38> Imakuni?'s D(down) changes the music to the Imakuni?'s card music.
06:30:33 <zzo38> And it deals damage if and only if the Imakuni?'s card music is the normal music for that stage.
06:31:23 <zzo38> Kaiji's B(up) allows you to walk up the glass staircase that nobody else ever noticed was there.
06:33:46 <zzo38> What are your opinions for this kind of things?
06:34:38 <itidus21> took a while to find this in my firefox history
06:34:44 <zzo38> Why does it say Carmack twice?
06:35:57 <itidus21> the fact that tom hall and john carmack are depicted as female is, partially because thats just how the screenshot was
06:36:23 <itidus21> the enemy they're facing is a doomgaze
06:36:26 <zzo38> I wasn't paying attention to that
06:37:11 <itidus21> but, overall, i like the idea that a game dev team is a party made up of people with different specializations
06:37:31 <Sgeo> tswett, monqy: Homestuck is on hiatuses for a while: http://mspandrew.tumblr.com/post/26260841147/hiatustuck . Note that I may not have announced the most recent update, etc.
06:37:44 <zzo38> Some game is made by just one guy
06:39:03 <itidus21> so, taking a look now at what you said.. oak is the guy from pokemon, miyamoto is a man whose precise work is unknown but mario is attriubted to him
06:39:46 <itidus21> urza sounds like bear for some reason
06:39:58 <zzo38> Perhaps you are thinking of the Latin "ursa"
06:40:29 <zzo38> (As in "Ursa Major" (the Great Bear) and "Ursa Minor" (the Small Bear))
06:40:50 <zzo38> Urza is from Magic: the Gathering cards
06:41:09 <coppro> Urza would be too strong
06:41:42 <coppro> zzo38: Have you read the artifact cycle?
06:42:08 <zzo38> coppro: What is that?
06:42:34 <zzo38> I have not read any of those books.
06:42:46 <coppro> those ones are actually quite good
06:44:15 <coppro> I particularly enjoyed The Thran
06:44:26 <itidus21> zzo38: it sounds not too remote from the sort of thing i would enjoy making. but ive only played smash bros once.. my brother and i looked on helplessly as the cpu kicked our ass
06:44:27 <zzo38> Well, I have not read them. My interest in Magic: the Gathering is how the rules interact with each other (I think this is called "Melvin")
06:45:15 <zzo38> itidus21: I have play the game against my brother and the computer players and I sometimes win but usually he wins.
06:45:59 <itidus21> we don't play games together much.. not since SNES really
06:46:14 <itidus21> but i had a few fun sessions playing a game called bleach: shattered blade
06:47:23 <itidus21> it was really intensive cos you have to shake the wiimote to charge up some special move
06:48:07 <zzo38> Well, I played with the GameCube controllers so did not have to do such things like that
06:48:22 <itidus21> in this case it was part of the fun though
06:48:46 <zzo38> Yes, of course, if that is a part of the game, then yes it is.
06:49:01 <itidus21> to play this game, it was a matter of physical stamina
06:50:36 <zzo38> Why does MegaZeux converts .GDM to .S3M but OpenMPT converts .GDM to .MOD instead? Do either of these works better in either case?
06:52:35 <zzo38> itidus21: I think originally they wanted Miyamoto's final attack to crack the disc so you have to purchase a new one, but I changed it.
06:55:34 <zzo38> (At least this is what my brother told me)
07:00:55 <itidus21> Game publishers dont like the second-hand game market because it eats into revenues. Capcom is planning to counter that by releasing a game for the Nintendo 3DS that can only support one save file - for life.
07:01:04 <itidus21> The game is Resident Evil: Mercenaries 3D and according to the games instruction manual, the saved data on this software cannot be reset.
07:02:33 <zzo38> It is stupid. Well, I have a program to backup and restore save data on DS game cards, but I do not know if it will work with the 3DS cards
07:05:36 <itidus21> another news is that DLC is planned for an upcoming super mario game
07:06:34 <itidus21> yet another idiot move was final fantasy xiii-2 apparently has a DLC ending
07:07:35 <shachaf> Also, I asked about the next CTF on your behalf.
07:07:40 <shachaf> It'll probably be in August.
07:07:46 <zzo38> My own designs are opposite to theirs: The game disc has no copy protection and includes all the files on the disc which are needed to make the box art and instruction book and inventory data and so on, so if the store runs out of stock they can make their own copy; the customer can do the same if they lost the box or instructions, or the disc cracked and they want a backup copy, etc
07:07:54 <shachaf> It'll probably be more web-oriented.
07:09:02 <shachaf> I found a bug in std.file.read() in D.
07:09:07 <shachaf> Which isn't very confidence-inspiring.
07:09:13 <fizzie> What's a "flag shirt"?
07:09:13 <kmc> what kind of bug?
07:09:21 <itidus21> can it be used to take control of the computer?
07:09:31 <shachaf> It gets the buffering wrong and gives you a bunch of 0s instead of the end of the file you asked for.
07:10:19 <shachaf> With normal files it stat()s them first and allocates a reasonably-large buffer.
07:10:29 <shachaf> But with /proc files it can't do that, and you get a bunch of NULs.
07:11:15 <kmc> is it actually null, or uninitialized data?
07:11:44 <shachaf> Presumably uninitialized data.
07:11:50 <zzo38> This system may cut into revenues but it also costs us less to implement than the other way, and the store can potentially sell a lot more copies since they can make their own copy if they run out of stock.
07:11:51 <shachaf> I think it's whatever it gets from realloc().
07:12:08 <kmc> shachaf: how did you come to be playing with D's std.file.read()?
07:12:26 <shachaf> Also, something like half of the suid programs on my system segfault when you exec them with argc==0.
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07:12:53 <shachaf> I was thinking of using D for various ptrace things.
07:14:41 <zzo38> Do you like the "Famicom-MIDI" format?
07:14:55 <fizzie> shachaf: <fizzie> What's a "flag shirt"? [Some day I'll learn to add that "nick:" thing the first time.]
07:15:01 <Taneb> I'm not awfully familiar with the various music formats available
07:15:30 <shachaf> fizzie: It's a shirt with a picture of a flag on it.
07:15:30 <Taneb> I presume Famicom-MIDI is designed for the NES?
07:15:33 <zzo38> Taneb: Famicom-MIDI is not a music format, it is a specification for use of MIDI like General-MIDI is a specification for use of MIDI.
07:15:47 <shachaf> kmc has one, and today I went and got one too.
07:16:10 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes it is for NES but mostly emulators, and can be used with GameBoy and stuff too.
07:16:13 <fizzie> shachaf: Oh, I thought a shirt made out of a flag or something. (I guess that's sort of close.)
07:16:45 <shachaf> It could be a shirt with a picture of a shirt made out of a flag on it.
07:17:18 <zzo38> (It would probably be difficult to make it work on a real GameBoy without modifying the hardware, although channels 0-3 could be made to work on a real NES; channels 8 and 9 would also require modification of the hardware. Emulators can support it more easily, though.)
07:17:22 <shachaf> kmc: Writing a program that prints out the contents of /proc/foo/maps is weird.
07:17:32 <shachaf> I constantly feel like my program just crashed.
07:18:07 <zzo38> Here is the current draft of Famicom-MIDI document: http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=9058
07:18:49 <fizzie> They sent me a T-shirt (the cheapest-looking one I've ever seen) for doing that stripe.com "CTF" get-the-password kind of thing a while ago, something like that was my alternative guess.
07:19:07 <shachaf> fizzie: That's the one I got.
07:19:11 <shachaf> I was at the Stripe office today.
07:19:22 <shachaf> I did the CTF but they never sent me the shirt.
07:20:01 <fizzie> Oh, okay. (I was kind of surprised they bothered to mail one all the way to Finland.)
07:20:10 <zzo38> One potential use is to play back tool assisted speedruns that are created on computer, to the actual NES, by connecting through a MIDI sequencer to the device that translates the signals and connects to the controller port.
07:24:22 <zzo38> Channel 8 could be used to record the audio data directly, which can then be played back in any emulator supporting Famicom-MIDI (even one that is not capable of recording audio in this way).
07:27:02 <zzo38> Can you understand the Famicom-MIDI now?
07:28:45 <Taneb> Not really, but honestly? I don't really care
07:28:57 <Taneb> I've been playing Dwarf Fortress, and I've found a perfect site
07:29:28 <Taneb> It's got magnetite, haematite, limestone, bituminous coal, and native silver.
07:29:34 <Taneb> It's also heavily forested
07:29:38 <Taneb> Downsides: alligators
07:32:59 <Taneb> Oh, and it has gold
07:35:41 <itidus21> zzo38: actually the technical side of it is probably the easy part for smart people. but the greater question of what you are trying to achieve overall is an exciting mystery
07:36:59 <zzo38> What do you not understand about trying to achieve overall?
07:37:17 <zzo38> I thought I explained that too.
07:37:31 <Taneb> zzo38, you're almost reminding me of ELIZA
07:38:16 <itidus21> is it a midi player? is it a library to enable some given NES software to include midi music?
07:40:15 <zzo38> itidus21: No! It doesn't have anything more to do with music than MIDI show control has to do with music.
07:41:21 <itidus21> you mentioned something about controller port.. is there some midi device which can conveniently plug into controller port?
07:42:11 <zzo38> You would have to make up such a device, and it would have to support synchro-start
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07:48:32 <itidus21> is it about using midi to encode video-game related data?
07:54:08 <itidus21> zzo38: i am breaking rule #1 which is never question the motives of an engineer
07:57:15 <zzo38> itidus21: That is kind of the purpose, yes. For example, to record the controller inputs for playback later, either by file or by external MIDI devices. You may also be able to edit them using certain MIDI programs.
07:58:09 <zzo38> And I disagree with rule #1 anyways since to learn something you have to question the motives of an engineer. And then you have to get an answer.
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09:31:00 <oerjan> ex officio, that means it's his job, right?
09:49:22 <shachaf> 02:44 <DexterLB> how do I convert [IO a] to (IO [a])?
09:49:30 <shachaf> That ended more cheerfully than I had feared.
09:49:38 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => [m a] -> m [a]
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11:05:49 <oerjan> i think that's how i first saw e derived, way back
11:05:50 <Phantom_Hoover> (Probability of an event with probability 1/n not occurring on any of n occasions.)
11:06:11 <oerjan> alternatively, continuously compounded interest
11:06:39 <Phantom_Hoover> One of the STEP II problems this year was deriving that representation.
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11:08:45 <oerjan> lim {n -> infty} (1 + k/n)^n = e^k
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12:03:46 <Vorpal> I was just looking at the ID3 spec to figure out why my phone only seems to notice the embedded cover art for some of the albums... That spec is a mess... Also the image type enumeration includes "$11 A bright coloured fish"... What?
12:04:45 <shachaf> Are you saying bright coloured fish *shouldn't* be allowed in images?
12:04:56 <shachaf> Are you some kind of racistagainstfishperson?
12:05:32 <Vorpal> shachaf, I'm questioning that it is a special type, the other types includes things such as "Cover (front)" "Cover (back)" and file icons
12:05:44 <Vorpal> "A bright coloured fish" doesn't make sense there
12:07:17 <Vorpal> anyway the spec in general is a mess. It is incredibly unclear on various points, explains things in the wrong order (and doesn't provide any sort of cross references for such situations) and so on
12:07:39 <Vorpal> also it has lots of features that no one uses apparently
12:07:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think I mentioned the fish on #esoteric.
12:07:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, not recently I presume?
12:08:39 <shachaf> GIF has a bunch of features no one uses.
12:08:48 <fizzie> (And it could've been some other channel altogether.)
12:09:01 <Vorpal> also hm, this album which works on the phone doesn't show up has having cover art in the computer program I'm using for tagging (but it works in vlc!)
12:09:23 <Vorpal> yet some albums work in all programs, and some only on the computer
12:09:39 <Vorpal> vlc seems to manage everything though, can't embed cover art from it I think
12:10:19 <fizzie> It is quite a mess, I agree about that.
12:10:45 <Vorpal> also... this album works on the phone when playing a song from it (it displays the cover art) but the cover art doesn't show up in the album listing
12:12:55 <Vorpal> I did figure out one thing though, and that is that it can't do cover art in ogg, but that was like the only consistent behaviour about it
12:18:30 <fizzie> The only files that I have cover art on the phone are I think the four really random songs that had for some reason been preloaded onto it.
12:18:52 <Vorpal> the bastion sound track is the crazy one that works perfectly except in the tagger software
12:19:24 <Vorpal> oh the thing with cover art showing up in some places was a caching issue
12:19:33 <Vorpal> killing the music player program and starting it again worked
12:20:30 <Vorpal> and then I just have Ogg Vorbis left... And cover art for that doesn't work at all on the phone
12:21:38 <Vorpal> and from googling... what the tagger does isn't an official standard, just a common convention, since there is no official way to embed cover art in ogg vorbis...
12:24:43 <Vorpal> oh wait the tagger uses a deprecated variant. Maybe that is the issue
12:24:51 <Vorpal> now I need to find a program that does it properly
12:39:29 <Vorpal> lol... vlc doesn't handle the recommended format, but the phone does
13:04:22 <Vorpal> oh okay I needed to update vlc
13:13:50 <fizzie> Wonder whether that new Linux Skype 4 is worth upgrading to. The Utnubu on the laptop didn't seem to package it yet.
13:24:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, isn't skype rather bad from what I heard?
13:24:33 <Vorpal> and from what I heard it is getting worse over time
13:29:34 <fizzie> I'm not sure what kind of "bad" that means. I mean, ethical and philosophical vs. technical issues. The old Linux client (version numbers 2.x) has been usable but not so good; I don't know about this new version 4. (The Windows and OS X versions are in 5.x or something, but I don't think they share much code.)
13:31:19 <olsner> from what I recall, skype on linux is bad in all ways
13:33:21 <olsner> but that was years ago
13:37:12 <fizzie> They haven't really made any significant improvement in the 2.x series.
13:37:40 <fizzie> The official blog post about Skype 4 for Linux says it's good, but they would in any case, wouldn't they?
13:40:02 <fizzie> They list "much lower chance Skype for Linux will crash or freeze" as one of the improvements.
13:49:14 -!- Patashu has changed nick to Patashu[Zzz].
13:50:41 <mroman> "much lower chance"...
13:51:17 <mroman> Grenades.. now with lower chance for exploding in your hand!
13:51:44 <fizzie> Not just lower, much lower.
13:51:53 <mroman> Warning: May contain traces of nuts.
13:52:44 <fizzie> Like, it could be an order of magnitude lower. Now only every 100th grenade blows up in your hand, compared to every 10th.
13:53:47 <mroman> That would be so releiving .
13:54:50 <mroman> Seems to me english folks didn't have a consensus on using ei or ie ;)
13:55:34 <olsner> i before e except after c (except the rule is useless)
13:56:31 <olsner> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLXvXFLKrSw for Stephen Fry's failed attempts at explaining the problem to Lee Mack
14:03:49 <Lumpio-> I dunno but I've never had trouble remembering whether it's ie or ei
14:04:41 <olsner> like all other parts of spelling in english, you just need to know how it's spelled
14:05:10 <fizzie> On the Origin of Speceis, because it's after c.
14:05:57 <olsner> but apparently those with english as a native language often get taught various rules for how this is done, but all the rules are broken
14:15:23 <mroman> If teaching rules to native speakers works.
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14:59:11 <mroman> > randomRIO >>= return.(!!).(permutations "Hello")
14:59:13 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.IO a -> [a1]'
15:00:21 <mroman> > randomRIO (1,10) >>= (\c -> return $ (permutations "Hello") !! c)
15:11:47 <Vorpal> <fizzie> I'm not sure what kind of "bad" that means. I mean, ethical and philosophical vs. technical issues. The old Linux client (version numbers 2.x) has been usable but not so good; I don't know about this new version 4. (The Windows and OS X versions are in 5.x or something, but I don't think they share much code.) <-- technical issues with skype in general, not just on linux
15:11:54 <Vorpal> things like video calls breaking up and such
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15:17:30 <fizzie> Though the Skype use we have is mostly audio and text.
15:19:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, shoudln't teamspeak or something like that work just as well then?
15:19:28 <fizzie> > (permutations "Hello") !! 49
15:19:46 <fizzie> (Combining that to single step left as an exercise to the reader.)
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15:21:09 <Taneb> I'll try this again
15:21:47 <fizzie> > ("Hello" !!) <$> [0..4]
15:23:23 <fizzie> '@dice' is funny, it can do NdF+K but not NdF-K.
15:34:26 <mroman> > permutations "Hello" !! $ 49
15:34:27 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `$'
15:35:18 <fizzie> > (!!49) . permutations $ "Hello"
15:36:01 <mroman> But that's not the output pl provides.
15:36:31 <mroman> > let f = (permutations "Hello" !!) in f 49
15:36:42 <mroman> > (permutations "Hello" !!) $ 49
15:36:58 <mroman> I forgot the brackets.
15:37:27 <fizzie> @pl \s -> (permutations s) !! 49
15:41:18 <Sgeo> Any chance it could do NdF-K by giving it a positive value that causes it to wrap around?
15:41:47 <Sgeo> > maxBound :: Int
15:42:10 <Sgeo> @dice 1d2+9223372036854775807
15:42:10 <lambdabot> 1d2+9223372036854775807 => 9223372036854775809
15:42:19 <Sgeo> @dice 1d2+9223372036854775808
15:42:19 <lambdabot> 1d2+9223372036854775808 => 9223372036854775810
15:42:43 <lambdabot> unexpected ".": expecting "+" or end
15:48:32 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Bounded GHC.Integer.Type.Integer)
16:01:04 <Sgeo> For what it's worth, Integer as implemented by GHC is in fact bounded
16:13:59 <Sgeo> = S# Int# -- small integers
16:13:59 <Sgeo> | J# Int# ByteArray# -- large integers
16:14:25 <Sgeo> Uses a Int# for.... I think the size of the array? It has something to do with GMP's representation
16:14:55 <Deewiant> That doesn't necessarily mean it's bounded (although it probably is)
16:15:19 <Deewiant> The array could contain a "next array" pointer or some such.
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16:52:55 <fizzie> GMP's integers are at least bounded.
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17:08:03 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&curid=2038&diff=33007&oldid=33006 is there any evidence to support this change?
17:08:04 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:09:10 <elliott> 16:15:19: <Deewiant> The array could contain a "next array" pointer or some such.
17:09:11 <elliott> Pointers are bounded. Why am I reading the log? I'm closing that tab.
17:09:56 <elliott> @tell oerjan Not sure whether this change is accurate or not: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&curid=2038&diff=33007&oldid=33006. You're the Deadfish person, you sort it out :
17:10:06 <Taneb> elliott, why did you leave for so long!? I've resorted to asking question to which I won't understand the answer to in #haskell !
17:10:17 <Deewiant> elliott: I was wilfully ignoring that kind of boundedness. :-P
17:11:14 <elliott> Deewiant: I don't see why you would when even without a next-array pointer the boundedness is entirely theoretical :p
17:11:42 <Deewiant> With a pointer you can fill the machine memory, with an Int# you can't. :-P
17:11:45 <elliott> Taneb: Have you noticed this channel is boring?
17:12:01 <elliott> Deewiant: A ByteArray# could easily fill memory.
17:12:05 <elliott> Without any next-array pointers.
17:12:14 <Taneb> elliott, it's my IRC home
17:12:19 <elliott> In J# Int# ByteArray#, the Int# is the number of thingies. Chunks. Thunks. Clunks. Punks. Monks.
17:12:32 <Deewiant> If it has at most maxBound :: Int# bytes, it can't necessarily.
17:12:50 <Deewiant> But yes, it's all quite uselessly academic.
17:12:51 <elliott> It's maxBound :: Int# words, I believe.
17:13:01 <elliott> (Also that's not a valid value!)
17:20:23 <elliott> copumpkin: I forgot about the sign thing.
17:20:26 <elliott> Why did you have to remind me? :(
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17:36:04 <Vorpal> elliott, hm ghc no longer goes through C iirc? Can it still be made to do that. I want to try something insane.
17:36:51 <zzo38> What is it that you want to try?
17:37:37 <Vorpal> zzo38, Try getting a haskell program onto an android device using the Android NDK (this will mean I have to either write some C glue code or somehow access JNI from inside haskell!)
17:38:04 <Vorpal> iirc android has a messed up phreads implementation, if ghc depends on a sane pthreads...
17:38:31 <Taneb> Vorpal, GHC does allow you to compile into C, but it needs a special option
17:38:45 <Vorpal> Taneb, and it is still platform specific C right?
17:38:54 <Vorpal> So I first need a ghc cross compiler to ARMv7
17:38:55 <Taneb> Not if you use a different option
17:39:08 <Vorpal> oh? really? Do you happen to know which options these are
17:41:04 <Vorpal> "The C code generator is only supported when GHC is built in unregisterised mode, a mode where GHC produces 'portable' C code as output to facilitate porting GHC itself to a new platform. This mode produces much slower code though so it's unlikely your version of GHC was built this way. If it has then the native code generator probably won't be available. You can check this information by calling ghc --
17:41:24 <Vorpal> so I probably need to specially compile ghc for the option to exist
17:41:40 <Vorpal> or actually, this system has an old ghc (6.12.1)
17:42:24 <Vorpal> yeah for modern ghc at least: "Unregisterised compilation cannot be selected at compile-time; you have to build GHC with the appropriate options set. Consult the GHC Building Guide for details."
17:43:42 <fizzie> You can see http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Android to see what others have thought about it.
17:43:54 <Vorpal> oh thanks, didn't think to check there
17:44:34 <fizzie> (Some dude on the SO thread mentions doing something with jhc w.r.t. the Wii homebrew toolchain.)
17:44:59 <Vorpal> what does jhc target now again?
17:46:14 <fizzie> Apparently it has at least several C-based backends.
17:46:30 <Vorpal> what with the j I thought it might target jvm
17:46:55 <fizzie> There's support for cross-compiling to iPhone too. Sounds like Android would fit right in.
17:47:30 <Vorpal> with iphone you have a objc environment. Presumably you thus have a non-barebone libc/libpthreads
17:47:38 <Vorpal> which is what android has from my understanding
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17:48:36 <Taneb> ais523, elliott's back
17:48:40 <Vorpal> yeah seems like a quick hack wouldn't be possible for this
17:48:40 <Taneb> And he's got a new trick
17:48:50 <Vorpal> Taneb, what new trick?
17:49:03 <Taneb> Vorpal, reference to a song
17:49:34 <Taneb> "He's back, and he's got a new trick"
17:49:54 <Taneb> "Elliott Hird is ten times as slick as the last time!"
17:49:55 <Vorpal> <elliott> Taneb: Have you noticed this channel is boring? <-- I guess I need to be more active :P
17:50:09 <Taneb> "The last time, you saw him"
17:50:20 <Taneb> "Now you can see we really adore him"
17:53:46 <Taneb> It's a Hexham Classic
18:00:13 <Vorpal> elliott, do you have an android based phone or an iphone? I don't remember. I do remember you playing around with android devices, but they might have been tablets
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18:01:46 <VorpalPhone> I hate the wifi white spot in this room...
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18:02:12 <Vorpal> could only connect on second try
18:03:35 <elliott> I have an iPhone. I don't use it.
18:04:07 <Vorpal> elliott, so if you said this channel was boring, why did you come back?
18:04:13 <copumpkin> zzo38: happy canada day! http://gotstylemenswear.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/canadaday.jpeg
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18:10:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not very talkative though
18:14:12 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, what's the weather like in the Hexham of the North that Isn't Helsinki?
18:15:59 <Phantom_Hoover> What's the weather like in the Hexham of the Hexham latitude?
18:18:16 <Taneb> Bright but drizzly
18:21:59 <Vorpal> I think it was the day before yesterday (or possibly the day before that) when it rained 41 mm / m² here.
18:22:12 <Vorpal> Been a very rainy start to the summer in most of Sweden
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18:23:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well technically that is mm / m^2
18:23:39 <Maharba> How it works is there is a volume of rain over an area, which is a length.
18:23:58 <Taneb> Vorpal, you are wrong. Phantom_Hoover, Maharba, and elliott are right
18:24:15 <Vorpal> right, I found what I mixed it up with: "One millimeter of rainfall is the equivalent of one liter of water per square meter.[84]"
18:24:30 <Phantom_Hoover> You could do it in litres per square metre, but that's obviously the same as mm unitwise.
18:24:40 <elliott> Taneb: thank you for crushing his hopes and dreams :P
18:25:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, don't worry, there are lots of alternatives to being a meteorologist.
18:25:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no issue with admitting being wrong when that was the case :P
18:25:28 <Vorpal> today however the sun is shining here
18:25:38 <Taneb> I've got a friend who thinks sanguine rhymes with whine
18:26:09 <Vorpal> Taneb, thats... interesting
18:26:19 <Taneb> She won't admit that she's wrong
18:26:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Could be worse, he could make it rhyme with... irvooine?
18:26:47 <Maharba> It _should_ rhyme with whine, but English is messed-up.
18:26:49 <Vorpal> Taneb, just show her a dictionary with the IPA in it?
18:27:07 <Taneb> Vorpal, odds of that working is slim
18:27:21 <Taneb> Maharba, it's like bother and brother
18:27:27 <Taneb> And countless other pairs
18:28:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, iirc in most dictionaries I have seen there is a legend at the start showing how to decode IPA (by using examples of the sounds from simple words)
18:29:08 <Maharba> I'd rather those were pronounced, say, /tear/, or /readiN/, to use the X-Sampa encoding.
18:29:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you could just get a dictionary with plain phonetic spelling.
18:29:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Maharba, you'd rather change the pronunciation to fit the orthography?
18:29:56 <Maharba> Either way, actually, as long as they match.
18:30:26 <zzo38> I too would rather change the pronunciation to fit the orthography
18:30:48 <Maharba> How would you change the orthography of <reading>, say?
18:30:59 <zzo38> Actually, I would rather it became an alternate but still accepted pronunciation, than the standard current one.
18:31:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, those exist? Nice
18:31:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's common in more basic dictionaries, like the ones you get in schools.
18:31:45 <zzo38> I have seen dictionaries using phonetic order
18:31:48 <Maharba> Anything using "plain phonetic spelling" other than the IPA is guaranteed more ambiguous and harder to understand.
18:32:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm, I guess back then I mostly worked with Swedish-English/English-Swedish ones. Never really used pure Swedish dictionaries that wasn't the official SAOL.
18:32:13 <zzo38> I agree IPA is better
18:32:42 <ion> IPA beers aren’t to my taste, but many people like them.
18:33:07 <Phantom_Hoover> The point is that it breaks words up into sections which have a fairly unambiguous standard representation.
18:33:33 <Maharba> I did not understand what you said there.
18:34:57 <Taneb> zzo38, phonetic order from the back of the word would be useful
18:35:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Sanguine would be split into "sang" and "win"; both of these are not ambiguous with normal English orthography.
18:35:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Because they use normal English orthography, you don't need to learn anything more.
18:35:51 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I'd say it's "sang", "gwin"
18:35:53 <Maharba> But isn't it actually pronounced with /Ngw/ in the middle?
18:36:23 <Taneb> But your point's still there :)
18:36:49 <Maharba> With sang + gwin, though, the syllable break is in the wrong place.
18:37:18 <boily> in French, it's /sA_~gin/.
18:37:34 <Phantom_Hoover> If you can pronounce it with the two different syllable breaks I am very impressed
18:37:55 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's sorta sa-nggwin
18:38:21 <quintopia> boily: that is an okay way to pronounce it, but i'll continue to pronounce the u
18:38:23 <Taneb> With a weird, nasal a sound
18:38:26 <Taneb> Kinda french, maybe?
18:39:00 <Taneb> Well, I guess I'm weird, which isn't news to anyone
18:39:12 <Maharba> How would you represent French's /A_~/ in the "plain phonetic spelling"?
18:39:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm not sure how to pronounce the second of those.
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18:39:45 <Vorpal> doesn't make sense to me in English even. (And other languages are irrelevant here)
18:39:48 <boily> quintopia: that's an heresy! :p
18:39:55 <Phantom_Hoover> You wouldn't, because it's not a common English phoneme?
18:39:57 <oerjan> public announcement: the heap of threads you're considering picking up from the floor _may_ in fact be a spider.
18:39:58 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:40:02 <oerjan> end public announcement.
18:40:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I have no idea how to pronounce the two differently.
18:40:20 <Maharba> So, Phantom_Hoover, you'd use a different system for each language.
18:40:35 <lambdabot> elliott said 1h 30m 39s ago: Not sure whether this change is accurate or not: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&curid=2038&diff=33007&oldid=33006. You're the Deadfish person, you sort
18:40:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I guess maybe shifting the stress? Nah...
18:40:50 <boily> Maharba: as in ɑ̃ ?
18:41:02 <boily> (don't know if encoding went through)
18:41:11 <oerjan> elliott: well it's an accurate assessment of _some_ of the implementations.
18:41:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes? It's useful for representing English words in English, not French ones.
18:41:21 <Maharba> I got the letter fine, boily.
18:41:30 <boily> with the tilde and all?
18:41:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh was it supposed to be French?
18:41:45 <oerjan> admittedly i just today removed that feature from the pascal one
18:41:55 <Maharba> But IPA is generally useful; you don't need multiple systems.
18:41:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Sanguine is a French loanword, but its English pronunciation is significantly different to the French.
18:42:30 <Phantom_Hoover> So if you're making a dictionary for people who don't want to learn the IPA, it's not a good choice.
18:42:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I /guess/ the French pronunciation would be be more nasal?
18:42:37 <Maharba> To a non-native English speaker, the "englishy" system would be less accessible.
18:43:18 <Maharba> Even to some native speakers of English, IPA is easier.
18:43:22 <elliott> non-native speakers do not generally know IPA either
18:43:25 <Phantom_Hoover> OK? I said the system had limitations from the start, you don't need to point all of them out.
18:43:31 <Vorpal> Maharba, I'm not a native English speaker, but I never managed to remember IPA (if I needed it I just checked the key of the dictionary), the "englishy" system would work better for me nowdays at least
18:43:47 <elliott> does anyone know what Tektur's latest messages on the community portal talk page mean
18:44:46 <Maharba> elliott, I think he wants an OS written in an esolang for use as an emulation environment.
18:45:14 <Maharba> Or should that be in an emulation environment?
18:47:03 <Vorpal> it would probably be possible to write an OS in for example brainfuck, easy to compile to native code (you would need an extension for embedding some inline asm for the platform in question of course, unless you designed the ISA to fit what brainfuck could do)
18:47:42 <Maharba> For example, using memory-mapped controls.
18:47:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Well I mean if you can embed asm it's trivial to write an OS in BF, just not very interesting.
18:48:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, the challenge would be to use as little asm as possible
18:49:12 <Vorpal> on x86 at least you will at least need some to poke various system registers and such
18:49:36 <Maharba> It would be a bit trickier to compile, but I think memory-mapped controls might remove any inline asm need.
18:49:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, how much access to registers does x86 actually need?
18:50:10 <Vorpal> Depends on if you want to stay in 16-bit mode or not I guess
18:50:40 <Vorpal> but if what you are doing doesn't fit into the MBR you at least need to do a few BIOS calls to load more data from the disk
18:50:53 <Vorpal> Maharba, that would either need a hypervisor or a custom ISA I guess?
18:51:05 <Vorpal> not sure if I understood you correctly though
18:52:17 <Vorpal> or I guess you could let grub load you into protected mode with multiboot
18:52:18 <Maharba> I hadn't thought it out much. Maybe the compiled code would poll those memory locations occasionally.
18:53:03 <Vorpal> Maharba, well standard BF wouldn't allow you to do any waiting, you would have to busy loop
18:53:18 <Vorpal> anyway one thing you would need is writing some interrupt handlers (if you want input)
18:53:43 <Vorpal> of course, it could keep polling
18:53:55 <Maharba> You could have some memory locations be addresses for interrupt handlers.
18:54:14 <Vorpal> also for it to be an OS I think you would need something more than a program just running on bare bones
18:54:19 <Maharba> Then we get into self-modifying code, though.
18:54:23 <Vorpal> like the ability to run different programs
18:54:38 <Maharba> BF's Turing-complete, it can run other programs.
18:54:47 <Vorpal> Maharba, well the code you wrote I mean
18:54:57 <Vorpal> the program that was the OS
18:55:21 <Vorpal> there is of course no clear line between what is just a program running on bare metal and what is an OS
18:55:38 <Maharba> My statement about self-modifying code was not in reply to yours, but a continuation of my previous one.
18:56:24 <Vorpal> anyway, I imagined it being compiled into native machine code.
19:03:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, PeterMolydeux actually has more followers on twitter than Peter Molyneux.
19:03:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which one is the fake?
19:04:47 <Taneb> I only follow the latter
19:08:14 <Taneb> It was better than Fable 3
19:08:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, was there ever a good Fable game?
19:09:01 <Taneb> Except if you played as a female character in 2 you ended up looking like a East German shotputter
19:09:14 <Vorpal> (I haven't played any of them, but I haven't heard anything good about any of them)
19:09:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well I hear they're pretty fun as far as sidequests go, and the combat is decent.
19:09:32 <Taneb> 2's magic was a bit slow, too
19:09:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Hm. So better combat than TES?
19:09:52 <Phantom_Hoover> But the main plots are abysmal and it of course falls victim to the Molyneux hypefest.
19:10:06 <itidus21> doing a google image searcch: East German shotputter Heidi Krieger underwent gender reassignment surgery
19:10:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, probably, but TES combat is pretty bad, although it's definitely improved.
19:10:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, to me it sounds like you mostly described Oblivion: fun side quests, abysmal main plot. :P (Though yeah TES has terrible combat)
19:10:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but the problem with Fable is that it railroads you into the main plot.
19:11:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not like a TES game where you can fuck off and only miss out on a handful of dungeons.
19:11:54 <Vorpal> I never finished the main quest of oblivion. I did finish the Shivering Isles main quest. That was pretty decent actually.
19:12:13 <itidus21> she basically said fuck it, and went the whole way after being "force-fed cocktails of steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs"
19:12:39 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, WP article says she had gender dysphoria even before the drugs started.
19:13:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway, what about Fable 1? I don't remember hearing /anything/ about that game ever
19:13:50 <Vorpal> since there is a 2 there is presumably a 1?
19:14:14 <itidus21> vorpal just doesn't follow peter molyneux very closely
19:14:39 <itidus21> he has such an interesting surname
19:14:55 <Vorpal> hm what happened to that kingdoms of amalur? Didn't the studio that made it go bankrupt recently?
19:15:40 <itidus21> not only that, rhode island had heavily invested in the company
19:17:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, oh also Fable shows a deep window into Molyneux's view of morality, i.e. that all ethical dilemmas boil down to "murder this child pointlessly or pay a million pounds to buy it a pony".
19:17:58 <Vorpal> I /assume/ that is an exaggeration?
19:18:35 <Vorpal> did he ever make something good?
19:18:54 <Taneb> Vorpal, no, he killed the child pointlessly
19:19:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah okay
19:20:14 <Taneb> If you ignore the morality and the main quest and the east german shotputters and the really slow magic, Fable 2 was a fun, entertaining game
19:20:44 <Vorpal> Taneb, but as Phantom_Hoover pointed out you needed to proceed with the main quest to unlock various areas?
19:21:10 <Vorpal> so what you just suggested is in fact impossible?
19:21:16 <Taneb> Most of the world is available before the final, stupidly long mission
19:21:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Also ISTR that the world involves a lot of quest hubs that you move between, but I played for a fairly short time a long time ago.
19:22:06 <Vorpal> If you are doing an open world game you really shouldn't force the player into any direction once they completed your tutorial level (Oblivion and Skyrim did it right. And from what I remember Morrowind didn't really have a tutorial except you had to walk through a couple of doors, no combat that I can remember)
19:23:38 <Vorpal> btw, that is one issue I had with GTA4, you had to do quite a bit of the main quest to unlock all islands.
19:24:01 <itidus21> looking on wikipedia, listening to what has been said about fable games in here.. bullfrog made good games, lionhead studios didn't
19:26:32 <Taneb> The Movies was a fun machinima tool
19:29:54 <itidus21> i really liked theme park and syndicate
19:30:24 <itidus21> dungeon keeper i haven't tried
19:31:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I most often hear it compared with DF, which can only be a good thing.
19:31:57 <itidus21> he decided to make a game where you control the bad guys, and have to fend off heros.. i think its utter genius
19:33:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, from what I understand it, it is more like you are running the bad guys though
19:34:18 <Vorpal> and I only heard good things about it
19:34:39 <Phantom_Hoover> You're both making it sound like the only great thing the game did was have you play as the bad guys.
19:35:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, nah, I meant I only heard good things about the game in general
19:35:16 <Vorpal> but the big gimmick of the game was that you were the bad guy.
19:35:17 <itidus21> i don't know anything else about it really
19:35:17 <zzo38> There are other games where your character is bad guy including some text adventure games
19:35:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, luring heros into your dungeon and killing them and that sort of stuff
19:36:00 <itidus21> well the heroes come for you because you're evil :))
19:36:33 <itidus21> the premise makes me laugh, i'm sold on it
19:36:44 <Vorpal> itidus21, also presumably for looting?
19:37:23 <itidus21> one guy working on xbox live indie games(XBLIG) was trying a similar concept based on mario games.
19:37:48 <Taneb> That reminds me, how do I go about making android apps?
19:37:57 <Vorpal> itidus21, based on mario? What would Nintendo think about that?
19:38:10 <itidus21> yeah i recall a few people were critical of that aspect of it
19:38:30 <itidus21> not literally mario but a clone
19:38:38 <Vorpal> but I guess there could be a second mario game where you could play as bowser (Super Mario RPG had Bowser join your party at one point)
19:39:12 <ion> This program is funny even though i don’t understand the language. Apparently the name translates roughly to “don’t try this at home”. http://wgeostreaming.zdf.de/zdf/veryhigh/120629_folge1_nin.asx
19:39:13 <Vorpal> (he had been thrown out of his castle by a greater evil, so you basically decide to join forces, for the moment)
19:42:06 <itidus21> though i have super mario rpg rom.. and i am a final fantasy fan and a super mario fan.. ive still never played that
19:42:27 <Vorpal> itidus21, I had some problems emulating that rom. Not sure why
19:42:38 <Vorpal> never completed the game due to it freezing a lot.
19:42:49 <Vorpal> it was however a stellar game
19:43:05 <zzo38> If you have some problems emulating that ROM, then it is a good thing you have it because then you could try to fix the emulator.
19:43:09 <Vorpal> itidus21, I don't think I tried bsnes, my computer at the time couldn't run it. So I probably used zsnes
19:43:47 <Vorpal> so using the accurate model of bsnes might be worth a try
19:44:05 <Vorpal> itidus21, the issues only really started towards the middle of the game
19:45:27 <zzo38> My computer games do not always have a plot, for example some are just simple games which do not have a story (such as DOWN, BJACK, STARSTAK, MATCHNUM, Xnazzyball, Disk Catch, etc), while Super ASCII MZX Town has not a very good plot since you just figure out stuff as you go along, find keys and keycards, and then BIG_MONSTER at the end...
19:46:55 <zzo38> There is also MEDIUM_SIZE_MONSTER; once BIG_MONSTER says to him "I am sorry Dave, I cannot let you to do it" and then he responds "Hay! How do you know my real name?"
19:47:51 <Taneb> A wild Zzo (Lv. 38) appeared!
19:48:35 <zzo38> But mostly they consist of rooms that do not have much relation between their purposes; they are just various different areas such as the store, library, puzzle game, castle (with two sides: the kingside and the queenside), the Spanish Inquisition, etc. They are just various places you either go to find keycards, keys, or the passage to next area
19:51:41 <zzo38> And in one level you have to beat Dr.Gray, who has a laser proof vest, and if you beat him then he gives you the purple key (the only thing he owns that isn't gray).
19:55:40 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:58:44 <zzo38> But, the other game I make (not quite complete, but much shorter than Super ASCII MZX Town) is Potion of Confusing, which has a somewhat better and more coherent plot: Go into the passages to find nice purple keys. Hold second one as you hold a pencil.
20:00:48 <zzo38> The king hates anyone who has solved these puzzles also hates gibbering mouther and so on, so the king has ordered his army to kill them (and you). To stop them, you have to find the contract and write "VOID" on it, but first you have to go to library to learn about it, and it has a magic on it that you cannot adjust it except by writing on it by the second purple key.
20:01:03 <zzo38> Once you wrote "VOID" then the army will attack the king instead.
20:03:47 -!- Maharba has quit (Quit: Page closed).
20:04:19 <zzo38> And then you can find the Potion of Confusing.
20:11:37 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
20:12:39 <ion> Poor lion :-( http://youtu.be/6fbahS7VSFs
20:18:26 <itidus21> in the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps toniiiiiiiiaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
20:25:07 <mroman> Ziim looks really awesome.
20:25:18 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
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20:29:39 <elliott> oerjan: An other one, compiling on JDK1.1 (just in case you have some reason to stay away from ORACLE).
20:30:12 <elliott> oerjan: btw i don't know if http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&diff=next&oldid=33024 broke anything or not
20:30:23 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&diff=next&oldid=33025 he reverted your change, it seems.
20:34:52 <oerjan> i don't think that broke anything, the two switched lines should never be triggered on the same iteration
20:35:43 -!- ion_ has changed nick to ion.
20:37:27 <oerjan> the pascal change broke some things, which i fixed again. i'm pretty sure OR is an original pascal keyword, but that doesn't matter so i didn't undo that.
20:37:55 <oerjan> i'm wondering if i should fix his java, given that JTS's java is _also_ broken
20:38:24 <oerjan> although in a different way
20:51:00 <zzo38> Can you generalize van Laarhoven lenses to other categories?
20:54:46 <zzo38> I have thought of why you wanted (>>=) to be a method of a monad class, but I think return and join should be, and then require it to be a endofunctor as a superclass. Well, I think (>>=) shouldn't be, but perhaps as well as return and join, (=<<) can be made a method so that they can define in terms of each other including the endofunctor. Since, this way it can work for monads on other categories too.
20:55:44 <zzo38> (=<<) is like a functor from the Kleisli category (represented using the base category instead of the Kleisli category) to the base category.
20:56:12 <zzo38> That is why I think (>>=) should not be a class method.
20:57:06 <zzo38> And also why join should be a class method.
20:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover> (its important you keep track of whos harbouring scone heresy)
21:00:28 * oerjan has less and less idea how to pronounce english lately
21:00:47 <olsner> tip: it's not exactly norwegian
21:01:13 <olsner> I know! it's mind blowing
21:01:31 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, just pronounce scone correctly and you're good.
21:01:46 <zzo38> (Look it up in the dictionary if you don't know.)
21:02:13 <oerjan> AAAAA wiktionary shows _two_ options
21:03:41 <oerjan> ah but it's ok because only one of them is allowed to rhyme
21:04:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how is it pronounced? (Not IPA please, I never managed to remember that)
21:05:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, heh I thought it rhymed with "cone"
21:05:37 <Vorpal> oh well, we learn something new every day
21:05:42 <zzo38> If the dictionary shows two options then probably both are acceptable
21:06:24 * oerjan watches an unstoppable Phantom_Hoover hit an unmovable zzo38
21:06:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, is that an SCP reference?
21:06:49 <Vorpal> I seem to remember something like that from there
21:07:01 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it's a reference to the unstoppable force meets immovable object idiom.
21:07:12 <Vorpal> oh okay, that is an idiom?
21:07:17 <oerjan> which scp may very well have used...
21:07:45 <oerjan> ancient scholastic conundrum, i thought
21:08:04 <Vorpal> the solution is of course that no such objects exists
21:08:20 <olsner> related, I think, to that one about god constructing an object he can't break
21:08:34 <olsner> also almost a chuck norris fact
21:09:34 <Vorpal> seriously though, why did Chuck Norris end up with that meme. He isn't the only actor that played baddass roles.
21:09:54 <Vorpal> Arnold Schwarzenegger for example
21:10:13 <Vorpal> (he got the "I'll be back" one though)
21:10:50 <olsner> there used to be facts about other actors, but when those facts heard about chuck norris they changed
21:10:52 <fizzie> I remember very vague bits and pieces of a (probably sci-fi-ish) novel that had unstoppable force/immovable object stuffs in it. Also, it was weird.
21:11:05 <fizzie> Oh, it wasn't sci-fi, it was just http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking_on_Glass
21:11:34 <Phantom_Hoover> That's my favourite Banks novel because it makes absolutely no goddamn sense.
21:11:34 <olsner> Vorpal: maybe you should consult the Internet, it might know stuff like that
21:11:53 <fizzie> "Iain Banks commented that the book 'didn’t do exactly what it set out to do and I think you have failed to an extent if the reader can’t understand what you’re saying. I worry sometimes that people will read Walking on Glass and think in some way I was trying to fool them, which I wasn’t.'"
21:11:59 <Vorpal> olsner, guess what I'm doing atm!
21:11:59 <fizzie> Yes, it really doesn't.
21:12:03 <olsner> "... and the ending has a flavour of incest."
21:12:13 <Vorpal> olsner, yes IRC is part of the internet
21:12:24 <Vorpal> (you maybe meant "the world wide web"?)
21:12:34 <fizzie> olsner: I can't say I honestly remember that part. I just remember the weird games, and that the riddle was being used.
21:12:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I guess it does if you think about it, but he totally failed to actually tie anything together substantially.
21:14:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Also the unstoppable force stuff is this man in this woman locked in this weird prison thing for some reason and they have to play games and when they finish a given game they get to offer an answer to the question and if they get it right they get let out.
21:15:20 <zzo38> Well, IRC, gopher, WWW, are all part of internet. We ask question in IRC but can also look up some things in Wikipedia.
21:15:21 <Phantom_Hoover> (The other two thirds of a book consist of a man hankering after some woman who is secretly shagging her brother who is also his gay friend, and a paranoid construction worker.)
21:15:44 <fizzie> The Microwave Gun parts remind me of some other paranoid nutcase story.
21:15:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this sounds kind of awesome
21:16:26 <itidus21> being a paranoid nutcase isn't as much fun as it sounds
21:16:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, the problem is that the book draws you in with the promise that all these narratives will be taken together and brought to a close, and then completely fails to do so.
21:17:55 <fizzie> Incidentally, "you can't have both in the same universe" was one of their answer candidates.
21:18:03 <fizzie> As was that stupid "The immovable object loses; force always wins!"
21:18:18 * itidus21 slowly starts to remember that good books actually exist.
21:18:21 <Vorpal> that doesn't even make any sense
21:18:35 <Vorpal> itidus21, you should go read the Discworld books maybe?
21:18:35 <zzo38> What about this answer? "The force passes through the immovable object."
21:18:39 <Phantom_Hoover> The extent of their interaction is that the lovestruck guy obliviously triggers a car accident which injures the construction worker and the man in the prison wanders off and finds the construction worker plugged into a computer.
21:18:55 <zzo38> And this one? "The immovable object warps geometry so that the unstoppable force never manages to touch it anyways."
21:19:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Also the answer is basically given during one of the worker's chapters as "the unstoppable force stops, the immovable object moves".
21:19:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, plugged into a computer? As in some sort of cyborg thing?
21:19:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the sun's gone out and everyone's in a simulated world. Or something.
21:19:42 <itidus21> Vorpal: what i mean to say is that a given random book can be really cool, even if the author is unheard of :D
21:20:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh wait no, they're experiencing the memories of people in the past without actually influencing them or something.
21:20:08 <itidus21> the longer i go without reading books, the more i forget how good some of them are
21:20:09 <zzo38> How well do you think of the geometry one?
21:20:10 <Vorpal> itidus21, right, but the Discworld books are still good. So stop trying to be hippie
21:20:10 <Phantom_Hoover> It's one of the things that's never really elaborated upon.
21:20:29 <fizzie> Also there was that war thing.
21:20:34 <itidus21> i can't like a recommended book :D
21:21:20 <fizzie> It might've been. The latter parts are especially vague to me.
21:21:26 <zzo38> Actually here is another answer I made up: "The unstoppable force never meets the immovable object because of quantum uncertainty; the possibility that it does is discarded and a different collapse is performed instead."
21:21:31 <itidus21> the last book i read which counts as a book was the dwarf by par lagerkvist
21:21:44 <fizzie> But I remember that "the unstoppable force stops; the immovable object moves" answer that appeared somewhere.
21:22:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, err yes
21:22:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh yeah, paranoid construction worker gets sent to a psychiatric hospital in the wake of the car accident and finds the matchbook for some reason.
21:22:29 <zzo38> Another answer: "It is wrong because the movement has to be relative to something."
21:22:32 <Vorpal> I can't imagine a hippie itidus21 XD
21:22:34 <itidus21> i don't know why.. maybe because i was excited that it said nobel prize on the side.. but i later learned that the author gets the prize not the book
21:22:44 <fizzie> Hey, I have to wake up in like three or four hours to catch a plane. That's suboptimal.
21:22:46 <zzo38> (I made up these answers)
21:22:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well he already has disgusting long hippie hair.
21:23:02 <Vorpal> have you seen a photo of him!?
21:23:04 <zzo38> Which answers do you think are better for this unstoppable force question?
21:23:41 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It's like a three-hour flight, that's not much sleep. I should do some actual work after arriving and all.
21:23:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, ouch, where are you going?
21:24:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Belgium; that's why I was wondering about potential .be people.
21:24:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, what are you doing there? Work I presume from what you said
21:24:46 <itidus21> one thing i learned about books is that most so-called classics really aren't very much fun in english
21:25:01 <itidus21> frankenstein was good. very good
21:25:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's a university in Leuven, I'll be visiting their speech people, who we've coauthored papers with previously too.
21:25:05 <zzo38> Are they better in Klingon?
21:25:17 <itidus21> i have a theory they might be better in the native language
21:25:30 <itidus21> maybe i haven't actually read many
21:25:34 <Vorpal> itidus21, well of course most books are better untranslated (if you can read the language in question)
21:25:46 <Vorpal> guess why I have the Discworld books in English for example
21:25:56 <zzo38> Vorpal: Well, yes.
21:26:06 <Vorpal> (or anything that was published in English originally)
21:26:21 <zzo38> But still, if their native language is neither English nor Klingon, are some of them better in Klingon than English?
21:26:34 <Vorpal> itidus21, matters a lot more than usual for Discworld due to all the puns.
21:26:59 <Vorpal> zzo38, .. Why Klingon? And why would I know Klingon?
21:27:07 <zzo38> I think I read somewhere that the Jabberwocky is better in Klingon than English even though it was originally written in English.
21:27:56 <Vorpal> itidus21, anyway, surely you must have read some literature in a non-English language? What did you take as your second language in school?
21:28:16 <Vorpal> I don't expect you to be able to read a novel in whatever the third language you took was
21:28:18 <itidus21> at most i've learned to say a few words in foreign languages
21:28:36 <olsner> Vorpal: native english-speakers don't learn other languages, silly
21:28:41 <itidus21> i've never read an entire page of text in a foreign language
21:28:58 <itidus21> well i had some troubles in school
21:29:07 <itidus21> i was very eager about languages
21:29:12 <olsner> except those who learn Klingon, I guess
21:29:37 <Vorpal> olsner, what about the languages from Tolkins books?
21:29:46 <Vorpal> forgot what the elven languages were called
21:30:02 <itidus21> i don't know what actuality i am speaking about
21:30:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, thanks
21:30:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I am so glad elliott isn't listening to the channel right now.
21:30:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I always mix the first one up with Simarillon (sp?) which is another Tolkin thing
21:30:47 <itidus21> basically there are conditions and requisites to learning any language
21:30:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and why?
21:31:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal do you really think I would know what Sindarin is but not the Silmarillion?
21:31:12 <itidus21> you can't just start learning without some kind of motive force
21:31:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no, I just said I always mix them up
21:31:43 <Vorpal> itidus21 has a motive force?
21:31:53 <olsner> what is a motive force?
21:32:07 <itidus21> im trying to say something not sure what
21:32:30 <Vorpal> olsner, it is a force that comes in two variants: the unstoppable and the unmoveable
21:32:36 <Vorpal> olsner, I suspect itidus21 has the latter
21:32:59 <itidus21> like for instance, you can't have your cake and eat it
21:33:05 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> I am so glad elliott isn't listening to the channel right now.
21:33:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I suspect that an unstoppable motive force wouls still be unable to get iti to develop personally.
21:33:10 <itidus21> but you can desire, and even plan to have your cake and eat it.
21:33:27 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I just admitted to knowledge of elf languages.
21:33:58 <itidus21> but, if you plan to have your cake and eat it, and if you act upon that plan, unbeknownst to you is that you will invariably fail
21:35:03 <itidus21> but if you just plan to have cake, without the constraint of eating it too, then you might succeed
21:35:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Don't worry. I'm a friend of the elves, man.
21:36:36 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things?
21:36:40 <itidus21> so, for example, it's not enough to just buy a bilingual dictionary and begin study from there.
21:37:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm surprised you haven't changed though after playing Skyrim. Some of the coolest ruins in Skyrim are the Dwemer ones. And those are elven (the Dwemer, dwarfs, were actually a kind of elves according to TES lore)
21:37:33 <itidus21> ironically, the most common type of book about foreign languages on any given bookshelf is the bilingual dictionary
21:37:34 <shachaf> elliott is a friend of nobody. Just a h8r.
21:38:12 <Phantom_Hoover> They get a pass because they all disappeared whilst building a giant robot in a volcano so they could take over the universe.
21:39:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Also when some other elves came grovelling for help after losing to Swedes they blinded and enslaved them which is hardcore dorf.
21:40:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway I think the dwemer ruins are the most interesting dungeons in Skyrim. After the 20th ruin with undead it gets kind of boring
21:40:44 <Vorpal> sure a few dungeons have unique gimmicks that make it interesting but... there aren't that many of those
21:41:06 <Phantom_Hoover> They have irritatingly tough enemies though so it kind of balances out.
21:41:17 <Vorpal> what did you think of Blackreach btw (if you got there?)
21:41:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Best location, although they could've tried a little harder to get you to explore than that awful collection quest.
21:42:09 <Vorpal> pretty much what I thought too. "What a wasted potential"
21:42:40 <Vorpal> I have nothing against collecting nirnroot as long as I can do it while on my way elsewhere
21:42:58 <Phantom_Hoover> The DLC apparently adds more Falmer stuff so there might be more to do there.
21:43:12 <Vorpal> ooh, when is it coming out for PC?
21:43:24 <Vorpal> iirc there was an xbox timed exclusive deal on those
21:43:53 <Vorpal> well, when is the xbox one coming out? Or is it out already?
21:45:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh also Blackreach was too hard to navigate. An outdoor style map would have been needed for it.
21:46:00 <Vorpal> anyway I need to sleep, early morning tomorrow
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21:57:57 <zzo38> I like GCC's ?: operator with nothing in between, since it is useful
21:59:01 <zzo38> Is it useful to you?
21:59:58 <zzo38> Some people hate the ? : operator in C (regardless of whether or not GNU extensions are used) but I think it is good (regardless of GNU extensions).
22:00:00 <Lumpio-> I'm guessing something like || in JavaScript
22:00:08 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Yes, it does the same as || in JavaScript
22:00:28 <Lumpio-> I like ?: because it's the only functional-style conditional in the language
22:00:38 <Lumpio-> Well, with a proper return value.
22:00:45 <Lumpio-> I guess you could hack some conditionals with && and || but...
22:02:25 <zzo38> They should also add the one that is like && in JavaScript. Sometimes I use multiplication for that purpose but it is not chort-circuiting and it has to be boolean on one side 0 or 1 to work like that
22:10:39 <Lumpio-> For instance when would you use that
22:12:12 <zzo38> Something similar is: send_note(ch,channels[ch].transpose+(channels[ch].octave+(c<scale_base))*octave_tones+note_letter[c-'a'],0,&s); Except here I simplified the formula instead of writing (c<scale_base)*octave_tones
22:14:18 <itidus21> zzo38: i am working on another view
22:16:17 <itidus21> if applied to music, it would have 3 instructions for the flute (i am naive if the flute has extra aspects). #1 cover hole(x) #2 uncover hole(x) #3blow
22:19:35 <itidus21> this conception is based on esolangs (no offence)
22:20:02 <zzo38> If what is applied to music and have instructions for the flute?
22:21:59 <itidus21> cover(3) cover(4) blow(2 seconds) pause(1 second) uncover(3) cover(2) cover(6) blow(3 seconds)
22:22:12 <itidus21> that would be the idea applied to flute
22:22:48 <itidus21> as i am not a musician, i don't know how well that applies
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22:29:25 <zzo38> I don't know how to play flute, so I don't know either
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23:05:16 <zzo38> What about holy shit guys?
23:05:27 <lament> i just realized i ran a brainfuck golf contest ten years ago
23:06:18 <lambdabot> let(p,q)%d=p*d`div`q;w(p,q)i=(p*i+1,q*i);(x:y:s)^d|y%d>x%d=s^d|0<1=mod(x%d)10:s^(10*d)in 2:scanl w(1,1)[1..]^10>>=show
23:06:27 <lambdabot> (!!1)<$>transpose[show$sum[100^2^n`div`(a^i*i)*(8-i.&.3*4)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
23:06:34 <lambdabot> "31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062...
23:07:05 <shachaf> How would I know your motivations?
23:07:34 <lament> presumably you have some sort of mental model of me based on past interactions and other data
23:07:58 <shachaf> I know you're unpredictable.
23:08:13 <zzo38> I found the scale of 16-31 harmonics in Wikipedia, I figured out the same kinds of things, except that I called 30 B and 31 B sharp (or C flat).
23:09:22 <zzo38> 16=C 17=C#=Db 18=D 19=D#=Eb 20=E 21=F 22=F# 23=Gb 24=G 25=G# 26=Ab 27=A 28=A# 29=Bb 30=B 31=B#=Cb 32=C
23:21:24 <quintopia> zzo38: B# means C and Cb means B. perhaps call it B.25?
23:21:56 <zzo38> quintopia: In the standard scale, B# means C and Cb means B. But this is a different scale.
23:26:07 <zzo38> In a Bohlen-Pierce scale, D# is the same as E.
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23:55:57 <elliott> https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=62450
23:56:55 <Phantom_Hoover> It looks like it must have been autogenerated but I can't give the PHP guys that much creidt.
23:59:38 <FireFly> "has literally never been used by anyone" -- how would they know that?