00:00:32 yeah 00:01:17 http://www.dagbladet.no/tegneserie/gjesteserie/panto/ 00:03:18 (no text to translate) 00:25:22 I don't like the above implication that England, Great Britain and The UK all refer to the same place. The American equivalent would be to claim such of Texas, Dixie and The US... 00:29:39 I refer you to Shachaf's Confusion. 00:30:03 i.e. what, exactly, is the Isle of Man in relation to the United Kingdom. 00:34:10 itidus21: those are all different places 00:35:11 Phantom_Hoover: it's a self-governing crown dependency 00:35:13 says wikipedia 00:35:28 What does that mean? 00:36:09 "Under British law, the Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom. However, the UK takes care of its external and defence affairs, and retains paramount power to legislate for the island." 00:36:23 sounds like a colony >_< 00:36:38 * oerjan meditates upon Spitsbergen, Svalbard, Norway and Kingdom of Norway 00:36:52 kmc: is the isle of man a british overseas territory 00:37:01 because that is pretty much our name for colonies 00:37:05 <3 svalbard 00:37:14 elliott: no 00:37:27 jersey, guernsey, and isle of man have their own deal 00:37:47 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/British_Overseas.png 00:38:14 kmc: So what is the UK? 00:38:19 You see, I thought I knew all the answers. 00:38:30 But it turns out the UK makes no sense at all. 00:38:39 what do you mean? 00:38:44 the UK is a nation-state 00:39:03 elliott, well I mean the UK is England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. 00:39:06 It's right there in the name. 00:39:09 kmc: Okay. What does it compromise? 00:39:13 *comprise 00:39:16 The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. 00:39:19 oh hum wait Svalbard _is_ part of the kingdom. 00:39:29 What's the difference between somethin being part of the UK and something being governed by it? 00:39:47 don't know, but the UK as a soverign entity is allowed to make such an arbitrary distinction 00:39:48 One is actually part of the UK, the other is only governed by it? 00:39:58 i know it has bearing on citizenship, for one 00:40:08 kmc: Uh, the term "nation state" means it's a state representing a nation. As in, a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, and/or history... 00:40:14 "Although Manx passport holders are British citizens, because the Isle of Man is not part of the European Union, people born on the Island without a parent or grandparent either born or resident for more than five consecutive years in the UK do not have the same rights as other British citizens with regard to employment and establishment in the EU" 00:40:17 By my count, the UK has 4 constituent nations. 00:40:28 ok, so maybe it's just a state 00:42:14 The US have a similar thing with certain nearby islands... 00:43:09 kmc: it is a "sovereign state" apparently 00:43:23 i guess this means england is not a nation-state, it is a nation and a country that is part of the UK sovereign state 00:43:26 but is england itself a state 00:43:50 depends how you're using the word "state" 00:44:08 kmc: i believe there are also certain overseas territories that the royal family actually *own*, through the crown 00:44:09 Well, the constituent states of the United States are, in most all senses of the term, at least de jure... 00:44:23 the US has incorporated unorganized territories, unincorporated organized territories, and unincorporated unorganized territories 00:44:24 but do the royals own Ireland? 00:44:28 and used to have the fourth one too 00:44:31 Legal statuses are confusing as hell with the UK. 00:45:03 kmc: i believe there are also certain overseas territories that the royal family actually *own*, through the crown 00:45:35 We've been over this; Crown ownership only represents ownership by the regent in the most abstract way. 00:45:46 In all practical senses it's state ownership. 00:46:25 did you know there is a piece of land on the border between Egypt and Sudan which is claimed by neither country? 00:46:26 Much like how, in theory, the Queen exercises near-ultimate power, but in practice the Queen only has enough power to be on TV and such. 00:46:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bir_Tawil 00:47:08 pikhq, I don't think she even has power over that; 00:47:16 She's the Queen, she can't not appear on TV. 00:47:28 Phantom_Hoover: I know that. 00:47:32 Phantom_Hoover: But the whole point of this is technicalities. 00:47:43 kmc: Yes, I knew. 00:47:58 I'm not even sure it's true as a technicality, considering all that corporation sole stuff. 00:48:02 " In 1999, Queen Elizabeth II, acting on the advice of the government, refused to signify her consent to the Military Action Against Iraq (Parliamentary Approval) Bill, which sought to transfer from the monarch to Parliament the power to authorise military strikes against Iraq." 00:48:08 kmc: i knew, probably because someone here mentioned it 00:49:05 also there is a bit of territory which lebanon and syria both agree is part of lebanon, but israel considers to be part of syria 00:49:54 What's the story behind that? 00:49:59 kmc: that quote is weird 00:50:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebaa_farms 00:51:08 it's occupied by israel, but israel withdrew from occupied territories in lebanon, therefore they consider it to be part of syria's golan heights 00:51:51 I've just realised that I've never actually heard of any of Israel's territory being occupied by anyone else, except when it was previously disputed. 00:52:17 It... seems that should happen as much as the other way round. 00:52:45 no because israel had a tiny amount of territory to begin with 00:53:21 I thought they started out with some large section of what was formerly British Palestine. 00:54:08 by "to begin with" i mean after the war of independence 00:55:06 Wait there was a war of independence too?? 00:55:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War 00:55:27 i'm using an operational definition of "state" here 00:55:43 where the fact that the UN says you're a state is not very relevant 00:55:53 but the fact that you control some territory and provide state-like services within it is more relevant 00:56:19 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:56:23 and the ability of the israeli government to do that was not established until the end of the 1948 war 00:58:19 http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120621/01482419410/cbs-mocks-its-own-failed-copyright-lawsuit-sarcastically-announcing-new-completely-original-show-dancing-stars.shtml 00:58:20 I... 00:59:00 "we’re sure nobody will have any problem with this title or our upcoming half-hour comedy for primetime, POSTMODERN FAMILY." 00:59:03 i would watch that 00:59:15 I would watch the shit out of that. 00:59:25 Not to mention Dancing on the Stars. 00:59:26 i would watch it until my TV literally took a shit in my room 00:59:46 is your tv a dog 01:00:06 how to check 01:00:15 put cat in front of it 01:00:35 kmc: try throwing a bone 01:00:41 if your tv runs towards it and picks it up it is probably a dog 01:00:52 high definition dog 01:01:03 Phantom_Hoover: at what point do you consider the territory "occupied"? if there's active fighting and the front moves into the previous borders of your country, is that occupation 01:01:10 with UltraSmell(R) Technology 01:01:11 or does it only count after a ceasefire of some length 01:01:16 HELLO 01:01:18 YES THIS IS DOG 01:01:21 CAN I HELP YOU 01:01:36 kmc, when the Wikipedia article calls it 'occupied'. 01:01:37 Lumpio-: CAN YOU SNIFF THIS BAG OF SUSPECTED DORITOS 01:01:44 Phantom_Hoover: gimme 2 minutes then 01:01:49 THEN WHO WAS PHONE? 01:01:54 shut up 01:01:56 all of you 01:01:59 not Phantom_Hoover 01:02:01 he can keep talking 01:02:08 elliott smash 01:02:13 elliott: D8 01:02:18 i used to keep talking then i took an arrow to the knee 01:02:24 i do what i do because i must 01:02:31 Phantom_Hoover: your right to talk has how been revoked 01:02:36 (sorry it was the only awful meme that came to mind) 01:02:42 i do not accept apologies 01:02:43 only blood 01:02:45 wait 01:02:58 i should've said 'y u no let kmc talk' 01:03:04 then when you revoked my right to speek 01:03:07 said 'u mad bro' 01:03:20 now i mad :( 01:03:26 Phantom_Hoover: i don't understand, could you copy-paste that text into a bad drawing please and upload it to imgur 01:03:29 `? shachaf 01:03:34 No output. 01:03:44 :( 01:03:48 `? elliott 01:03:51 elliott ? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 01:03:56 sigh 01:03:57 `help 01:03:59 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 01:04:02 `? elliott 01:04:06 elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things? 01:04:10 `? shachaf 01:04:14 No output. 01:04:15 wait what 01:04:20 oh Phantom_Hoover had an extra space 01:04:22 Phantom_Hoover: BEWARE OF THE EVIL TRAILING SPACE BUG 01:04:34 `? shachaf 01:04:36 shachaf ? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 01:05:27 `learn shachaf completamente loco 01:05:30 I knew that. 01:06:08 `? shachaf 01:06:12 No output. 01:06:16 wat 01:06:19 `? shachaf 01:06:20 `ls wisdom 01:06:20 `? shachaf 01:06:27 No output. 01:06:36 i think we might be killing HackEgo 01:06:36 `cat bin/learn 01:06:41 ​? \ ais523 \ augur \ banach-tarski \ c \ cakeprophet \ category \ coffee \ comonad \ coppro \ egobot \ elliott \ endofunctor \ esoteric \ europe \ everyone \ finland \ finns \ fizzie \ flower \ friendship \ functor \ fungot \ glogbot \ gregor \ hackego \ haskell \ hexham \ ievan \ intercal \ internationale \ itidus20 \ itidus21 \ kallisti \ lens \ lifthrasiir \ mad \ misspellings of croissant \ monad \ monads \ monoid 01:06:42 ​#!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/ .*//' | tr A-Z a-z) \ info=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/[^ ]* //') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that." \ 01:06:43 No output. 01:06:43 actually 01:06:44 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 01:06:46 `uname -a 01:06:48 it seems something is wrong 01:06:49 Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux 01:06:54 oerjan: try adding it again 01:08:00 `learn shachaf completamente loco 01:08:04 I knew that. 01:08:11 `? shachaf 01:08:14 No output. 01:08:29 `? shachaf2 01:08:31 shachaf2? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 01:09:14 `run cat wisdom/shachaf wisdom/shachaf 01:09:16 No output. 01:09:22 hm 01:09:42 `file wisdom/shachaf 01:09:45 wisdom/shachaf: symbolic link to `/dev/null' 01:10:06 * oerjan swats shachaf -----### 01:10:13 `rm wisdom/shachaf 01:10:16 No output. 01:10:34 would be fairly easy to fix that bug in `learn but i cba 01:11:08 what bug, surely that doesn't make it /dev/null 01:11:36 my fake british friend says that crown dependencies are more like personal union, and so aren't bound by the uk parliament 01:11:48 except wikipedia says parliament occasionally passes laws that intend to apply to mann and the channel islands 01:11:57 i don't know how this works really 01:12:11 law (especially british law) seems nice and formalized but really it's all made up as you go 01:12:18 `learn shachaf sprø som selleri 01:12:19 Wait really 01:12:21 I knew that. 01:12:26 `? shachaf 01:12:27 that's the impression you get of british law 01:12:29 shachaf sprø som selleri 01:12:39 yes 01:12:43 unwritten constitution and all 01:12:57 which has no written constitution and is very interpretative 01:13:06 Some law is made up more than others... 01:13:28 British law is probably the most blatantly so of any modern nation. 01:13:47 kmc: the odd part is that you think it seems nice and formalised 01:13:58 law here is completely made up 01:14:05 it seems better than US law, where we spend a long time worrying about what some slaveowning aristocrats 220 years ago intended 01:14:05 admittedly our government is good at printing impressively attractive forms that make you think they have an awful lot of iron-clad rules behind them 01:14:09 they make it up in a lab with chemicals 01:14:30 and whenever the supreme court wants to invent a new civil right (or take one away), they have to come up with a ridiculous justification for why it was intended all along 01:14:48 kmc: unfortunately the result is that we don't have any credible arguments that the government can't legally violate our rights :P 01:15:03 not that having one necessarily helps 01:15:19 OTOH the government don't have any credible arguments that they *can* legally violate our rights. 01:15:44 yeah 01:15:50 i guess it is presumptuous of me to say which one is "better" 01:16:32 i think the difference relates to the fact that USA is a much newer country with a very strong origin myth 01:17:01 Phantom_Hoover: Do they have any credible arguments that they can do anything by that definition? 01:17:11 you know jesus guided the writing of the constitution and this is why USA #1 forever 01:17:44 Maybe we should employ some militant Tea Partiers to come and live in the UK so the government has some kind of vaguely credible thing to be afraid about. 01:17:55 fsvo credible 01:18:16 Phantom_Hoover: Well, the guns are credible. 01:18:36 I can see at least one flaw in this plan. 01:18:47 i look forward to hearing about how david cameron is an atheist muslim terrorist from kenya who was born in a terrorist training camp in pakistan 01:18:58 seems pretty likely 01:19:04 i mean, have you seen his birth certificate? 01:19:07 WHAT IS HE HIDING 01:19:20 :P 01:19:34 kmc: I think if Cameron wasn't British he'd have to kill himself. 01:20:31 is that how it works 01:20:36 kmc: I think to find a nation with a stronger origin myth you have to go back Romulus. 01:20:49 If he wasn't British I would be very curious as to who is. 01:21:07 'At the core of this doctrine was the notion that the crown itself had personhood and as a legal entity is identical to the state of Hungary. It is superior to the ruling monarch, who rules "in the name of the crown".' 01:21:08 Phantom_Hoover: Well I mean wouldn't you rather Cameron *wasn't* British. 01:21:22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Crown_of_Hungary#Holiness_doctrine 01:21:33 no, his britishness is an integral part of his terribleness 01:21:40 he wouldn't be as fun to hate if he wasn't 01:26:13 -!- david_werecat has joined. 01:27:39 !bfjoust freeze (((((((((()*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1)*-1 01:30:19 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )). 01:30:37 david_werecat: That won't work :P 01:30:51 david_werecat: Macros aren't expanded; there's no way to cause exponential blowup. 01:30:53 It'll just time out. 01:30:55 Or lose. 01:31:06 Oh, hmm. 01:31:14 It hasn't timed out yet. 01:31:20 I suppose it could freeze the thing up, but I don't think the interpreter is susceptible to it... 01:31:27 I know lance handled it correctly... so I blame fizzie. 01:31:33 david_werecat: I think EgoBot has a global timeout on everything, though. 01:31:59 I thought so too, but apparently not short enough. 01:32:33 !sh echo hi 01:32:35 hi 01:32:40 Well, that's... reassuring. 01:33:19 At least I'm not using "!perl fork() while fork()". 01:34:08 That freezes codu entirely. 01:35:44 Though, why is bfjoust still running after all this time? 01:38:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving"). 01:38:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:41:18 !bfjoust isitreally? < 01:41:41 david_werecat: don't do that :P 01:41:47 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:42:05 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 01:42:07 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:42:24 * quintopia suspects the timeout is on program cycles and not the ()* construct 01:43:18 i don't think that bug is my responsibility so... 01:43:47 @tell Gregor http://www.filedropper.com/newbfjousttar and ask about the bug in gearlance 01:43:47 Consider it noted. 01:43:56 That freezes codu entirely. 01:43:59 It does not. 01:44:04 EgoBot uses UMLBox. 01:44:24 I did freeze codu a while back using that. 01:44:35 Hmm, really? 01:44:36 !perl fork() while fork() 01:44:37 Gregor: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 01:44:40 That would be a serious bug in UMLBox, then. 01:44:48 It also froze all other websites running or Gregor's box. 01:45:26 I suspect the bug uncovered was in fact bad timing when I was introducing bugs to fuck up Codu on my own the other day ;) 01:45:53 Yeah, that sounds implausible to me... UML shouldn't be forkbombable like that. 01:45:58 Especially with EgoBot's ulimits. 01:46:05 Oh... so that was it. 01:46:18 Gregor: Link me to your local *lance copy >_> 01:46:19 git.zem.fi is down. 01:46:25 nonetheless bfjoust has not returned 01:46:51 As I recall, EgoBot just remains silent if the time limit is reached. 01:47:20 it would not have been reached on the call i made afterwards 01:47:28 !bfjoust working? < 01:47:37 !help 01:47:37 ​help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 01:47:40 I know lance handled it correctly... so I blame fizzie. <-- perhaps there's a bug when the "expanded" content is empty? 01:47:40 !source 01:47:41 !come on 01:47:44 Alternatively, it is in fact running that other bfjoust 8-D 01:47:51 oerjan: Right, it's () that would cause any such bug. 01:47:56 FOR-E-VER 01:47:58 Gregor: I can patch up *lance for it in a jiffy. 01:48:20 Interestingly ()*anything should never be a timeout as you might expect, but instead be simply skipped. 01:48:23 elliott: remember to patch the new version 01:48:29 http://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ ought to be up to date. 01:48:33 Actually... that's kind of a pain. 01:48:37 Since you have to handle the nesting. 01:48:43 What you need is a recursive expands_to_empty function. 01:48:50 Which is easy to define but a pain to use. 01:48:57 So I won't fix it, because it'd be ugly. fizzie can. 01:49:27 Gregor: you already installed the new version that fast? 01:49:51 No. 01:49:53 I've done nothing. 01:49:56 I'm super-tired X-D 01:50:09 then it's not up to date 01:50:10 :P 01:50:24 Gregor: have you got out of china yet? with all your body parts? 01:50:29 I was talking to elliott X_X 01:50:34 oerjan: Days ago. 01:50:42 aha 01:51:32 waht 01:51:59 Gregor: codu is down 01:52:09 Gregor: The forkbomb worked 01:52:40 * oerjan thinks wikipedia should have a different color for links that go to disambiguation and misspelled redirect pages 01:52:40 Gregor: oh i thought you were telling him it was OK to patch the version of gearlance found at http://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ , which would cause it to conflict with the version in the tarball i just gave you 01:52:40 but it's irrelevant if codu is down :P 01:52:41 -!- monqy_ has joined. 01:52:48 monqy_: hi 01:52:53 hi 01:53:11 Incidentally, Gregor IRCs through codu. 01:53:11 So you just broke his IRC client. 01:53:27 oerjan: that sounds DB-intensive 01:53:27 That's incentive to fix it, right? 01:53:27 elliott: actually he ran the forkbomb himself XD 01:53:38 Well then... Gregor did :P 01:53:41 could someone please write in this channel an IRP implementation of a universal Turing machine? 01:53:58 elliott: IRP may be in fancy-L ;) 01:54:02 elliott: but it already have a different color if the page doesn't _exist_ 01:54:33 *has 01:54:42 Oh shit EgoBot is still using Plash, isn't it X_X 01:54:58 Haha is it really 01:55:03 Gregor: Are you lagged to hell 01:55:14 oerjan: yes 01:55:14 oerjan: that's a much simpler check than the others, I think 01:55:32 elliott: what do i know. i just see people are _still_ making new links to [[Issac Newton]]. 01:55:43 -!- monqy has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:56:52 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 01:56:52 oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere&target=Issac+Newton&namespace=0 01:56:52 oerjan: yw. hth. 01:56:53 elliott: um i already did that, and fixed most of them 01:56:59 ah :P 01:57:09 oerjan: I think there might be a bot that finds links to redirects from misspellings? 01:58:42 there are a couple old ones i haven't fixed because i haven't been able to check if the misspelling is in the actual source referenced 01:58:46 and also i just after that fixed a lot of "pentathalon"s :P 01:58:47 clearly you should buy the comics 01:58:47 yeah in theory 01:59:07 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:59:07 i will buy them if they are cheap 01:59:51 -!- monqy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:00:06 no one answered my question on the talk page, anyway 02:09:04 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:09:04 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:14:09 -!- esowiki has joined. 02:14:11 -!- glogbot has joined. 02:14:11 -!- glogbackup has left. 02:14:13 -!- esowiki has joined. 02:14:14 -!- EgoBot has joined. 02:14:14 -!- esowiki has joined. 02:14:14 -!- HackEgo has joined. 02:15:05 -!- glogbackup has joined. 02:15:28 glogbackup: smooth 02:15:49 -!- Gregor has joined. 02:16:41 OK, probably time to switch EgoBot over to UMLBox... 02:16:43 I seriously thought I had done that, like, ages ago X_X 02:24:11 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:33:03 elliott: you'll enjoy what I just did to blognomic. 02:34:05 coppro: What happened? 02:34:27 elliott: I replaced the word 'Dynasty' with 'Machine'. BlogNomic is now in the Third Machine of scshunt. 02:34:34 help 02:36:15 coppro: can you explain henri bouchard to me 02:36:36 oerjan: Wait, did I do the /dev/null thing? 02:36:41 That was clever of me! 02:36:53 /clev/null 02:37:29 coppro: Can you come up with some plan to win BlogNomic that lets me win without doing anything so that I can start a good dynasty? 02:37:44 ais523: You are also permitted to do so. 02:37:58 /hm/whydidn'tirssibreakthat 02:38:12 seems it doesn't count it as a command if it contains a / 02:42:31 coppro: i don't see where you actually did that 02:42:39 oh 02:42:46 it replaced it in the core rules as well as dynastic by mistake or something? 02:44:30 yes 02:44:42 elliott: neither of the other two things though 02:45:11 the other what 02:45:26 the two requests 02:46:36 oh 02:46:40 i'm upset 03:07:30 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:08:39 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:18:44 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:19:39 Now I thought about it I can know, you can make a sum of categories, you can make a product of categories, and a monad or comonad on one of them you make the sum of monads and product of monads too, etc 03:28:19 The other thing is that it seems that you cannot actually make sum of categories and product of categories with the Category class in Haskell. 03:43:46 -!- Patashu has joined. 03:51:24 does anyone here know of multiplexing X forwarders, sort-of like tmux but with X rather than terminals? 03:51:44 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nope). 03:55:01 ais523: To the best of my knowledge, none exists 03:55:05 I've considered writing one 03:55:12 but there's a lot of tricksiness 03:55:22 since IDs can change 03:55:25 and resources are stored server-side 03:55:30 so the muxer would have to retain copies 03:55:34 and restablish them server-side 03:55:37 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:56:02 you'd basically need to write a server 03:56:10 except its display backend is also X 03:56:30 (and GL wouldn't work unless you implemented software emulation on the muxer) 04:00:08 ais523: see blognomic 04:06:59 -!- asiekierka has joined. 04:32:40 It'd be trivial with Wayland, as far as I know. 04:34:46 No. 04:34:54 Or do you mean local muxing? 04:34:59 Local muxing might work. 04:35:12 but not remote, since Wayland has no forwarding 04:36:04 I meant local. Though remote would work if you implemented your own forwarding protocol. 04:36:39 ＴＲＩＶＩＡＬ 04:36:57 Yeah, -lx264 04:36:58 :P 04:42:29 Do you know how many things are banned in the Free Land of Not a pipe? Some of them are: * Searching housing units is banned. * Assisted suicide is banned. * Assisted abortion is mostly banned. * Hunting is mostly banned. * Surveillance cameras are banned in public areas. * Secret police are banned. * Elite police are banned. * Monopoly is banned. * Smoking in public is banned. * It is prohibited for someone who is dead to act as alive. 04:48:16 but how do I own park place and boardwalk? 04:48:33 pikhq: remote Wayland would largely defeat the point 04:49:24 coppro: It'd still be a much less shitty setup. 04:50:06 Apps currently try to treat X as a framebuffer muxer, setting up forwarding on top of an *actual* framebuffer muxer rather than a hacked-up one would work at least a bit better. 04:50:39 But there are also many things which are permitted: * Free speech is permitted without restriction. * Hate speech is permitted. * Discrimination is mostly permitted. * Cannibalism is permitted. * Voting is permitted at any age. * Writing and publishing whatever book you want is permitted. * Most other things are also permitted. 04:54:43 Kasparov once played chess against a team of fifty thousand people. 04:58:36 The team of fifty thousand people lost. 05:11:21 none of us is as dumb as all o fus 05:12:31 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:17:34 did they vote on moves? what was the procedure? 05:42:02 I seem to be in my "hunt for a language" phase 05:42:29 I have moved from looking at Clojure to looking at ... not sure which of SML or OCaml I should look at, there seems to be more OCaml'ers on Reddit 05:42:34 And am now doing a Try OCaml thing 05:42:43 kmc: Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasparov_versus_the_World. 05:44:05 s/ See/See / 05:44:29 kmc: of course by "50k people" it was actually "far less people who were good at chess arguing on an internet forum and then getting everyone else to vote for that" 05:45:24 [[Black finally secured the opportunity to castle but refused to be so defensive. This move was a novelty by the World Team, i.e. a move which had never before been played in a recorded game. Krush discovered and analyzed the move, and enlisted Paehtz to recommend it as well, to give it a better chance of winning the vote. Their combined advocacy, plus much discussion on the bulletin board, was enough to gain it 53% of the vote. After this move, 05:45:24 MSN requested that the four official analysts not coordinate with each other, perhaps to ensure a greater variety of recommendations. The analysts worked in isolation from each other thereafter.[5]]] 05:45:25 and so on 05:48:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kasparov-18.jpg 05:48:44 love the joystick 05:48:57 "yeah i actually spent most of the time playing TIE Fighter" 05:49:02 kmc: that's how you play chess 05:50:29 lies, n. "You wont get better error messages than with ghc and ghci." 05:50:30 He actually uses a combat emulator to decide his moves. 05:50:56 See, chess actually comes out of ancient combat rituals. Therefore, what is best in battle directly corresponds to what is best in chess. 05:52:11 kmc: "Those who complained were not overstating Krush's influence; her recommendations were selected every single move from the 10th to the 50th." 05:52:20 etc. etc. etc. 05:53:57 was The World allowed to use computer chess programs? 05:54:02 and opening books, etc 05:55:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:55:39 Did you read the opening of the article? It would be exceedingly difficult to stop an open web poll doing anything. 05:55:52 So any such rules would be irrelevant, really. 05:56:05 I doubt computer chess programs are any good when they only get to take some of the moves. 05:56:26 "This move was posted by United States Senior Master and Life Master Brian McCarthy, one of the most prolific contributors to the World Team forum. He found the move working with his Bookup database and the integrated computer program Zarkov." -- so it was done. 05:56:35 -!- augur has joined. 05:57:15 Now I'm looking at Mercury. 05:57:17 Yipee. 05:58:15 hi 06:01:44 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:02:13 -!- augur has joined. 06:10:40 I was going to ask what it is with "Objective" being added to language names to indicate OO, but then saw the obvious 06:11:23 Sgeo: Objective C as opposed to subjective C, of course. 06:11:34 are there examples other than C and C++? 06:11:48 kmc, Objective Caml 06:11:51 ah right 06:12:01 but almost nobody expands that acronym and almost nobody uses the object system ;) 06:12:33 Besides apparently having more of a community, is there any reason to go OCaml over SML? 06:12:49 Because I'm currently looking at OCaml more because of the community than anything else 06:12:52 http://www.mpi-sws.org/~rossberg/sml-vs-ocaml.html 06:12:54 haskell 06:12:54 http://adam.chlipala.net/mlcomp/ 06:13:10 sml isn't worth anything except learning why haskell is better 06:13:26 Which probably has high value all its own. 06:13:36 SML syntax is a bit nicer i think 06:13:43 it has a wider variety of implementations 06:13:53 these are not really big points in favor 06:13:59 ocaml is used by real companies doing real things 06:14:08 That doesn't say much, anyways: Haskell's nearly a monoculture by now. 06:14:13 maybe even more than Haskell 06:14:24 SML is totally used for, uh, things! 06:14:47 pikhq: which is weird 06:15:09 the comparison is hard to make because i think ocaml users are less evangelical 06:16:00 * shachaf wonders whether he should do the ICFP contest. 06:16:10 That article gets less and less Wikipedia-y as it goes on. "Here then is a six-man ending; www.shredderchess.com has a tablebase for all these endings available; after 55.Qxb4 the tablebase shows White can win in 82 moves!" 06:16:50 OCaml is a very ugly language. 06:16:55 SML is less so. 06:17:05 yeah 06:17:09 ocaml is ugly, and i don't just mean syntax 06:17:09 (Not talking about syntax here.) 06:17:12 Snap. 06:17:17 the syntax is plenty ugly too ;P 06:17:27 I actually quite like OCaml's syntax. 06:18:09 coppro: did you just break agora 06:18:11 one thing i really like about ocaml (the implementation) is that it's factored into a thing which produces bytecode, a bytecode interpreter written in C, and a bytecode to native code compiler 06:18:16 & also: should i sleep 06:18:33 kmc: Guess what #haskell is doing! 06:18:43 so even though the compiler is self-hosting, you can get it running on a new platform just by compiling the interpreter (a C program) and then running pre-compiled bytecodes for the compiler 06:19:07 kmc: What's the practical difference between that and generating portable C? 06:19:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:19:42 maybe none 06:19:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:20:09 in theory GHC can do something like this with the unregisterized C backend 06:20:17 in practice it is an unmitigated clusterfuck 06:20:29 XChat crudded out on me 06:20:31 the C produced by the unreg'd C backend is not portable C at all 06:20:32 elliott: no 06:20:36 Due to assumptions made while compiling, or something like that, if I remember correctly? 06:20:57 On the other hand these same problems might apply to the bytecode approach. 06:21:00 when you build GHC, it hardcodes a bunch of struct sizes and offsets and the like for the target platform 06:21:07 and GHC was never really designed to be built as a cross compiler 06:21:14 What's ugly about OCaml? 06:21:28 Besides the lack of typeclasses (and I heard modules are sort of better, but is that just SML?) 06:21:32 data constructor arguments aren't curried 06:21:46 equality is a single baked-in special case typeclass-like thing 06:21:49 but you can't define your own 06:21:55 kmc: So I think the issue is "GHC was never designed to built as a cross compiler", not so much the particular approach they didn't take while not designing it. :-) 06:21:57 modules aren't a replacement for typeclasses, or vice versa 06:22:06 some problems can be solved with either feature 06:22:08 others can't really 06:22:33 Are data constructors functions at all? 06:22:42 Some of them are. 06:22:42 Or are they functions that take a tuple, or what? 06:22:51 Oh, you're talking about OCaml. 06:22:58 they're like functions that take a tuple. there might be additional restrictions 06:23:24 hmm 06:23:27 iirc printf formatting is also a special baked in thing 06:23:29 kmc: Guess what #haskell is doing! 06:23:36 Is it "explaining" monads? 06:23:56 elliott: Well, I was thinking along the lines of "annoying me", but that too. 06:24:01 kmc: yeah ocaml's pritnf stuff is weird 06:24:08 Cale is so hlepflu. :-( 06:24:15 a string literal can be overloaded to a "printf" value when it is the second argument of printf 06:24:26 also this breaks substitution etc. 06:24:30 basically printf is a macro that takes a string literal 06:24:44 that's not an inherently bad way to do things but ocaml's execution of it is gross 06:24:46 also OCaml has extensible sum types... wait, no, it has a *single* extensible sum type, named exn and usually used for exceptions 06:24:49 elliott: yeah 06:25:09 otoh OCaml has better support for adding your own macro-like stuff than pretty much any non-Lisp i know of 06:25:26 the camlp stuff is interesting 06:25:31 certainly better than TH 06:25:35 if only it wasn't attached to ocaml 06:25:38 yeah camlp4 lets you modify the concrete syntax of the language 06:25:43 you can write true syntactic extensions 06:25:56 in fact you can define your own totally alternate syntax 06:26:03 http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-camlp4/manual007.html 06:26:19 elliott: do you think the value restriction counts as "ugly"? 06:26:54 Sgeo: oh, i forgot another major blemish: addition on ints is + but addition on floats is +. 06:27:06 kmc: i forget what that is 06:27:11 kmc: it's how they stop unsafeCoerce from references right 06:28:07 Sgeo: because they don't have type-class overloading 06:28:10 also i was wrong before 06:28:19 ocaml doesn't have the fake typeclass for equality, that's SML 06:28:33 in ocaml you can use the equals operator on any type, including say functions 06:28:40 and if the type isn't comparable, it's a run-time exception 06:29:01 Does it do structural equality? 06:29:39 probably? 06:29:48 you can't override it, afaik 06:30:05 i'm actually not a big fan of typeclasses in Haskell 06:30:10 but i think these alternatives are worse 06:30:53 Typeclasses are nice when you have a single definitive fundamental implementaion. 06:30:55 my view is more that, typeclasses are a good feature, but people (especially beginners) go way overboard defining new typeclasses and instances 06:31:11 and typeclasses aren't a *great* feature; there is room for improvement 06:31:20 typeclasses are one of the worst features I kno wof and cause an infinite multitude of problems... but they also seem to be necessary 06:31:27 yeah 06:31:43 well, define "necessary" 06:31:49 people get by with the SML and OCaml solutions too 06:31:49 nobody wants to use a different operator for integers and floats, nobody wants to recode Map for every type 06:32:00 Am I seriously mostly looking at other languages because of Haskell's records situation? 06:32:04 actually Map would not be so bad 06:32:08 you could have 06:32:13 empty :: Ordering a -> Map a 06:32:16 where 06:32:25 yep 06:32:26 data Ordering a = Ordering (a -> a -> Thingy) 06:32:27 what's thingy 06:32:28 :t compare 06:32:29 forall a. (Ord a) => a -> a -> Ordering 06:32:31 data Ordering a = Ordering (a -> a -> Ordering) 06:32:32 (oops) 06:32:33 elliott: Unions are a bit of a problem. 06:32:38 shachaf: right 06:32:38 if you union two maps constructed with different ordering functions, you're gonna have a bad time 06:32:40 it'd have to be slow 06:32:44 but serves you right, or something 06:32:44 which is why you actually want: 06:32:48 empty :: (ord :: Ordering a) -> Map ord a 06:32:52 and now you run into fun issues 06:32:54 :3 06:32:57 where you can't get two Maps with the same ordering to unify 06:32:57 fissues 06:33:02 sigh 06:33:06 dependent types cat 06:33:28 the type system is invariably incredibly inadequate for the task it is set, until you increase its power such that it becomes tangled up in its own mechanisms and stops working for anything 06:33:34 data Ordering a = Ordering (a -> a -> Ordering a) 06:33:37 I just hope the latter is due to our inexperience, rather than fundamental 06:33:37 invent a use for this type, now 06:33:38 elliott: So Monads are also a maybe something? 06:33:40 zardoz demands it 06:33:49 kmc: it's a variadic function 06:33:55 it's also a covariant functor 06:33:56 I think 06:34:03 elliott: That's a description, not a use. 06:34:06 erm 06:34:06 contavariant 06:34:08 *contravariant 06:34:14 elliott: i think it is due to inexperience, because people who don't know Haskell say the same thing about Java 06:34:35 kmc: well I am 90% certain that, say, Agda is not The Way 06:34:51 Agda is certainly The Way to somewhere. 06:34:52 admittedly I could not write an Agda program right now if you told me to but I understand how it works on a basic level 06:34:55 and I can read a lot of the stdlib code 06:34:57 apart from the proofs 06:35:00 And I'm glad there are people who are going down it! 06:35:11 "apart from the proofs" 06:35:11 it's just that every dependent type system seems to be so much more awkward than the simpler ones 06:35:12 I GET IT 06:35:29 Epigram 2 sounds like it'd be better if McBride actually worked on it 06:35:38 and i agree with him about totality 06:35:57 yeah, i think this field is very new and we can't say it's reached the best possible solution 06:35:58 What's McBride's opinion about totality? 06:36:42 even Haskell and ML type systems are very new 06:36:52 especially if you're talking about a time when more than 5 people use them 06:37:14 and programming itself is very new ;P 06:37:41 Sgeo: https://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/conor.mcbride/pub/Totality.pdf 06:37:55 basically I agree that our languages should be total 06:38:03 and this does not impede their turing-completeness 06:38:24 Hmmmm 06:38:25 because you have a partiality monad? 06:38:39 Where did I see something about optionally being able to mark functions as total? 06:38:44 kmc: more or less, yes -- more directly, a potentially non-terminating computation is just codata 06:38:57 codata Possibly a = Definitely a | WaitForIt (Possibly a) 06:38:58 And/or non-totality being mentioned in the type system 06:38:58 mm 06:39:08 kmc: you can get your runtime system to evaluate these just fine 06:39:15 just like the RTS executes the IO value for Haskell 06:39:24 did he seriously redraw xkcd 386 on a whiteboard just to take a photo of it 06:39:31 i can't decide if that's wonderful or pathetic 06:39:35 conor mcbride can do whatever the fuck he wants 06:39:44 kmc: -- indeed, the top-level value of your program should probably be something that can do both IO and partial computations 06:39:54 kmc: if you have a nice algebraic effect system, then these can be defined independently! 06:40:22 there are of course total functions that you have to represent as possibly non-terminating for obvious reasons 06:40:29 elliott, will this thing explain what codata is? 06:40:41 kmc: most directly and perhaps most meaningfully, an interpreter of the language itself 06:40:53 kmc: but I don't mind that 06:40:58 kmc: especially since you can have unsafePerformPartial 06:41:03 with all the standard caveats 06:41:10 Sgeo: no, but codata is simple 06:41:26 Sgeo: basically 06:41:29 Sgeo: "data" is finite 06:41:34 say, 06:41:36 data [a] = [] | a : [a] 06:41:39 is data, were haskell strict 06:41:43 (the strictness being important) 06:41:55 Sgeo: with *codata*, you don't have to guarantee you can evaluate it all in finite time 06:42:04 Sgeo: all you have to do is guarantee that you can peel off *one constructor* in finite time 06:42:05 for instance 06:42:10 data [a] = [] | a : [a] 06:42:13 this is a valid piece of codata 06:42:16 1 : 2 : 3 : 4 : ... 06:42:17 but 06:42:18 undefined 06:42:18 is not 06:42:24 because you can't peel a (:) or [] off it in finite time 06:42:32 so basically, you can always examine codata further 06:42:36 but it does not necessarily have any end 06:42:39 so, if you have 06:42:44 codata Sometime a = Now a | Later (Sometime a) 06:42:45 then you can have 06:42:56 Later (Later (Later (... 06:42:57 that never ends 06:42:57 or 06:42:59 Later (Later (Now 3)) 06:43:02 A lazy list based on network operations would NOT be codata, correct? 06:43:03 but you can't have 06:43:04 undefined 06:43:04 or 06:43:05 Later undefined 06:43:08 Sgeo: indeed not 06:43:16 anyway, Haskell makes everything into codata 06:43:20 unless you make it into data by using ! 06:43:22 I think this is a mistake 06:43:27 I think that "lazy lists" are a bad idea 06:43:34 what you want is either lists-the-data, or colists-the-codata 06:43:38 or, possibly, streams-the-codata 06:43:43 (streams being codata Stream a = Cons a (Stream a)) 06:43:51 (in fact colists are probably rare compared to lists and streams) 06:48:28 I have made the idea for Ibtlfmm which you can have two maps or sets of the same type but different ordering, but you cannot union them because these maps are of different types even though their contents are the same. I think this is the way they should be done 06:50:37 At least Objective C is really a strict superset of C, unlike C++ which differs a bit. 06:52:08 yes 06:52:27 it's tragic how many parts of C++ got fucked over thanks to needing C compatibility, and then they threw out the latter anyway over some dumb shit 06:53:03 The worst part is how the "auto" keyword is no longer backwards-compatible. 06:53:07 Breaks all my programs. :-( 06:53:16 You... Use auto in C? 06:53:27 pikhq: When I want an automatic variable, sure! 06:53:30 is there any point to the auto kw in C? 06:53:35 I don't think so. 06:53:43 Trivia. 06:53:47 consistency is a point, i suppose 06:54:00 It's kind of surprising that Algol 68 came before C. 06:54:12 It's kind of surprising that Algol 68 came before Go. 06:54:33 Yes, I saw that article. 06:54:48 In fact it's the first article I ever read about Algol 68. 06:55:13 what do you all think of Rust? 06:55:45 Should I learn OCaml or Clojure? 06:55:45 "it's what's for dinner" 06:55:50 Rust looks pretty neat. 06:55:51 Sgeo: yes 06:56:06 yeah, Rust seems cool 06:56:17 Is Rust any further along these days? 06:56:21 Something actually usable? 06:56:28 * Sgeo wants Rust 06:56:30 it seems like an informed, clever attempt to improve on C in C's niche 06:56:46 Well, it's GCed. 06:56:49 Do you know the BLISS programming language? It has some ideas which I think are some better than C. So we should have something which combines features of BLISS, C, and LLVM. 06:57:27 whereas Go seems like an attempt to simplify Java further and then make the syntax weird enough that C programmers won't feel it's a slight to their e-penises 06:57:56 kmc, Go has that thing where it has language-defined generics but no way for users to define them?/ 06:57:59 that's a fine way to help society 06:58:04 but not much to interest me 06:58:32 Most things I've seen relating to Rust have made me think "oh, that's neat". 06:58:35 shachaf: i thought it wasn't so much GC as reference counting + uniqueness types 06:58:38 maybe it has all of these 06:58:38 Mostly it's been slides and such. 06:59:06 iirc, Rust has a special GC... part... thingy... 06:59:12 kmc: Oh, it's an optional GC with some of those other things, yes. 06:59:24 Erm, as in, mutable, immutable, GC, but then GC got merged in with mutable or separated out? 07:01:40 kmc: I once considered writing something in Rust but I saw how volatile it was. 07:02:31 yes, aiui, it's not there yet 07:02:36 There are six possible coercions, termed "deproceduring", "dereferencing", "uniting", "widening", "rowing" and "voiding" 07:02:43 (Algol 68, not Rust.) 07:03:32 voiding while rowing considered harmful 07:04:54 Does Rust have a way to..... specify how to do destructuring? 07:05:00 I think I'm thinking of Scala's unapply 07:05:05 But I may be wrong 07:05:09 Return a list. 07:05:14 (And have no idea what Scala's unapply does) 07:05:17 (No.) 07:05:19 (And I don't either.) 07:06:39 kmc: If more and more things annoy me in general in the world, does it mean I'm getting old? 07:06:47 heh 07:06:52 i have been wondering that myself 07:08:05 Um. 07:08:28 In Rust, is the stack closure/box closure distinction ultimately for optimization? Couldn't everything use box closures? 07:08:59 Oh, box closures can't mutate their environment, I guess? 07:09:52 stack closures are allocated on the stack? 07:11:01 "As a further simplification, if the final parameter to a function is a closure, the closure need not be placed within parentheses. You could, for example, write..." 07:11:15 * Sgeo sticks his tongue out at Ruby 07:12:02 let doubled = vec::map([1, 2, 3]) {|x| x*2}; 07:12:41 -!- MoALTz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:12:46 lols 07:12:52 is that only for lambda syntax? 07:13:02 or is it actually for anything of type 'function' 07:13:12 It's not "the last argument" 07:14:06 -!- MoALTz has joined. 07:14:09 Ruby has a special argument slot for a callable thing. 07:14:29 When you say foo(...) { ... }, it passes a new Proc in that special argument slot. 07:14:54 def foo(arg1, arg2, &block) is the way you define a function that takes the callable thing. 07:15:07 I like Rust's way better 07:15:07 You can alos pass anything in the block slot with the same syntax: foo(arg1, arg2, &b) 07:16:24 This is pretty fundamental to the way Ruby does things, and while it's a little weird, it can be nice. 07:16:29 Sgeo: Have you learned about the distinction between procs and lambdas yet? 07:17:12 shachaf, erm, I know there's a distinction between do/end and {/} which amounts to precedence. 07:17:20 No, that's just syntax. 07:17:51 What's the difference between proc and lambda? 07:17:57 shachaf: the difference is that return inside a block returns from the enclosing function? 07:17:57 I'm scared. 07:18:03 kmc: Yep. 07:18:09 so it's a bit like it captures a continuation as well 07:18:11 But you can't use it to implement callcc. :-( 07:18:30 Ah, hmm 07:18:32 It just throws an exception if you use it after the function has returned. 07:18:35 bah 07:18:45 So one does a Smalltalk-like ^ and the other does just a normal... thingy? 07:19:29 def foo; b = lambda { return 5; }; [1,2,3].map(&b); end 07:19:37 def bar; b = proc { return 5; }; [1,2,3].map(&b); end 07:20:12 Hmm, no. 07:20:25 foo returns [5,5,5], bar returns 5? 07:20:46 no, they both return 5 07:20:57 Yes. 07:21:04 Odd. 07:21:06 what gives 07:21:24 lambda and proc are the same 07:22:52 @ping 07:22:52 pong 07:23:12 so how do you get a normal lambda 07:23:46 what is a normal lambda 07:24:04 how do i declare an anonymous function which returns 5 07:24:13 er not 'declare' but create, as a value 07:24:14 lambda { 5 } 07:24:14 ? 07:24:18 Oh: 07:24:24 kmc: what is a function 07:24:25 def foo; b = lambda { return 5 }; ['hi', b.call]; end 07:24:27 if you mean somethiing you can do 07:24:29 f(foo) on 07:24:30 then you can't 07:24:31 def foo; b = Proc.new { return 5 }; ['hi', b.call]; end 07:24:34 if you mean something you can do 07:24:37 f.call(foo) on 07:24:39 then lambda { 5 } 07:24:40 sigh 07:24:44 wtf 07:24:58 ruby's solution to this is honestly not as bad as it sounds given certain syntactic things ruby desires 07:25:01 proc == lambda != Proc.new 07:25:04 but it's kind of ugly even then 07:25:26 shachaf: but you can't call the result of Proc.new without .call? 07:25:33 kmc: I'm not quite sure. 07:25:40 kmc: that doesn't really make *sense* 07:25:44 in foo(bar), foo isn't a value 07:25:47 it's a name 07:25:49 why the fuck not 07:25:54 what kind of shit-ass language is this 07:25:59 even in C, foo there is a value 07:26:01 kmc: Ruby supports calling functions without parentheses. 07:26:04 well, it's complicated :P 07:26:13 If you want the value foo you can use Method.new(:foo) or something like that. 07:26:14 ruby is a bad language but this isn't as unreasonable as it sounds 07:26:25 This is inherited from Perl. 07:26:32 that's no excuse 07:27:04 Is Ruby better or worse than OCaml? 07:27:34 what a shitty question 07:27:52 languages are not totally ordered 07:27:54 except for PHP 07:28:40 CAOS is worse. 07:29:04 Sgeo: what are you looking for in a language, anyway 07:29:06 what do you want to use it for 07:29:19 I guess "Everything" isn't a good answer 07:29:26 it's... an OK answer 07:29:29 for comparing it with other languages !! 07:29:31 kmc: nothing 07:29:33 Sgeo doesn't code 07:29:38 he just learns languages and gives up on them 07:30:00 I actually do write code sometimes. 07:30:39 https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Antiposeball-5-SAVE-PRIMS-ON-FURNITURE/219014 is not a thing that could exists if I did not write code. 07:31:10 shachaf: did you see my .COM file? 07:31:21 h<|XP- {P_X(%GGG(%GGWZ- sh LI!XI!Hello, DOS!$ 07:31:48 i wonder if this can be made smaller 07:32:00 kmc: ais523 07:32:12 kmc: wrote a program which turned strings of text into printable com files that printed them 07:32:17 kmc: which was itself a printable COM file, I think 07:32:22 or was it a uudecoder in printable COM 07:32:24 i don't know 07:32:26 it's awesome ask him about it 07:32:27 haha, pro 07:32:31 i think it was a uudecoder yeah 07:32:38 so he could transfer binary files over text lines 07:32:41 without any prerequisites 07:32:44 well... except for DOS 07:34:05 Perhaps just COMBOOT. 07:34:33 a PHP bug where I completely agree with the PHP team in every respect and think the behaviour is reasonable 07:34:36 this is a first 07:34:41 *bug report, that is 07:34:43 https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=50696 07:34:57 yeah i have some sympathy for their position as well 07:35:10 if that person really has this hellish dev environment, they should have been testing RCs 07:35:12 (format supported by syslinux bootloaders, in its 16 bit mode, if not using Syslinux-specific APIs, is a COM file that only uses BIOS calls) 07:35:21 the best part is where the reporter asks rasmus to escalate the issue 07:35:23 that said the function shouldn't return 0 or NULL, it should throw an exception 07:35:26 yes i lolled at that 07:35:38 Oh, sorry, has a small handful of DOS APIs. 07:35:48 kmc: php doesn't really have "errors" 07:35:53 especially not type ones 07:35:53 (anything trivial) 07:35:54 right 07:37:16 Is it significantly likely that the problem can't be fixed with a search/replace, perhaps to a custom function that emulates the old behavior? 07:37:33 did you read the thread 07:37:47 "Each of those changes will have to be coded, tested, written-off, released, tested by the clients since this is tax data and has to be precise for tax planning and retirement planning." 07:39:06 ...for every changed line of code? 07:42:43 apparently something on that order 07:49:56 -!- sebbu has joined. 07:50:29 Sgeo: rasmus gives the exact search and replace 07:50:38 it's adding a single cast to the first argument of every function 07:50:42 kmc: Oh, you wrote that? 07:50:43 erm 07:50:44 evrey function call 07:50:45 of that call 07:50:46 *every 07:50:47 fgoji 07:50:48 orgji 07:50:49 'r;lkhkrt 07:50:50 krogjirge 07:50:56 I thought it was that anti-virus test code thing, but I guess not. 07:51:13 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:51:13 yeah i wrote it 07:51:20 as part of adding COM support to my polyglot 07:51:50 Maybe they're using eval? 07:52:00 Is that self-modifying code? 07:52:05 I mean, that would be stupid, but given who we're dealing with 07:52:27 *using eval in ... ways worse than normal eval. 07:55:15 [[ 07:55:15 Rasmus Lerdorf is a braindamaged idiot. He always was, and it was obvious from start. Shame on everybody who uses anything he touched. 07:55:15 He could escalate, he could ask some adults to fix this issue. But he won't because he is naughty. 07:55:15 ]] 07:55:19 kmc: did you know proggit is the best 07:55:49 meanwhile at the top of hacker news "16,000 core neural net (andrew ng/jeff dean) - singularity is near (research.google.com)" 07:56:30 shachaf: yes 07:56:44 shachaf: because the interrupt instruction is not ASCII 07:56:54 Right. 07:57:00 Is there any non-self-modifying way to do it? 07:57:14 not that i know, but feel free to try :) 07:57:19 is there any non-self-modifying way to execute some code that is not in ASCII with just ASCII 07:57:19 i am curious to hear about any improvements to this code 07:57:24 i'm guessing ... no? 07:57:26 wait no i have an idea 07:57:30 scan RAM for the interrupt instruction 07:57:31 then jump there 07:57:36 well there are other ways to get to the "print shit on the screen" code 07:57:37 yeah 07:57:40 then you don't self-modify 07:57:41 elliott: I'm wondering whether there's a jump instruction. 07:57:44 it's just like self-modification 07:57:45 but minus a MOV 07:57:58 or just read the interrupt vector table and then far jump to the right place 07:58:24 the instructions you get are: or and daa sub das xor aaa cmp aas inc dec push pop pusha popa push insb insw outsb outsw jo jno jb jae jz jnz jbe ja js jns jp jnp jl jge jle 07:58:28 but not every form of those 07:58:58 Wait, you have those jumps? 07:59:05 Is it different in real mode? 08:00:22 As.... biased I may be against Republicans, how is http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/06/richard-mourdock-obamacare-youtube-accident.php?ref=fpa a big deal at all 08:00:46 shachaf: this is real mode 08:00:50 (Some guy accidentally posted video reactions to several possible Supreme Court rulings) 08:00:57 yes, you have conditional jumps 08:00:57 kmc: Right, which is why I was asking. 08:00:59 positive offsets only 08:01:18 oh you also have bound and arpl but those aren't on the 8086 08:01:32 and i didn't include \t because fuck tabs 08:03:04 Have you tried using the INT at 0000h or the long call at 0005h? 08:03:29 That's not very printable! 08:03:41 you can construct such numbers (this code does) 08:03:47 but there's no indirect jump/call, either 08:04:06 I mean in memory 0000h or 00005h when a .COM file runs. They're in the header. 08:04:36 kmc: Next step: Write a printable MBR 08:04:53 shachaf: the last byte of a MBR isn't printable 08:04:56 so, like, what's the point, man 08:05:17 pfft 08:06:05 Write just the executable program part of MBR as printable 08:07:00 challenge: write a printable bootloader 08:07:19 kmc: oh, I think what ais523 wrote is something which turned any program printable through self-modification 08:07:25 and then converted a uudecoder with it 08:07:27 or... something 08:07:44 john_metcalf: Yeah, but how do you encode that address in the printable code? 08:07:52 I guess you just have to alculate it. 08:08:05 but how do you jump there once you calculated 08:08:24 kmc: I'm having trouble groking the purpose of the Functor type class. What benefit is there in deriving a class from Functor? Especially since every derived type is going to have to supply an implementation anyway. 08:09:06 Sgeo: that's really dumb "newS" 08:09:07 *news 08:09:21 elliott, I agree. 08:09:31 as tired as "all political parties are the same lol dumbos" stuff is you can't really expect reasonability on either side of a political campaign 08:09:57 The Fark thread on it has a few people objecting to the fact that the messages were pre-recorded, rather than just the speech being pre-written 08:10:49 Again, I think that's silly. 08:11:25 I'm honestly not surprised to find that he did that at all... 08:12:00 I mean, heck, it straight-up makes *sense* to have a bunch of speeches pre-written, and pre-recording them is just one extra step. 08:12:01 elliott: you are quoting? 08:12:20 Especially makes sense for a person who is probably quite busy. 08:12:37 pikhq, absolutely 08:12:38 Record a bunch of responses for things over the course of an afternoon, release as needed. 08:13:17 Bit of an embarassing accident to release them all, but it's still *not a big deal*. 08:13:21 kmc: yes 08:13:35 look at me i say "grok" instead of "understand" without understanding what "grok" means 08:13:37 pikhq, arguably it's humorous 08:13:40 horp glurp ponk donk 08:14:01 falling into the balls tank 08:14:03 Sgeo: Yup. 08:14:10 * pikhq should grok some more water 08:14:15 beer me that water, bro 08:14:35 * pikhq actually read the damned book, so there. :P 08:14:43 Hmm, I should read that law 08:14:50 Maybe 08:16:14 you know nixon had a speech prepared in case they had to leave neil armstrong and buzz aldrin stranded on the moon to die 08:16:19 it's a shame there's no recording of that 08:16:43 I thought he hadn't actually recorded it. 08:16:45 that speech is depressing 08:16:51 pikhq: hence why there is no recording of it 08:16:53 "We drop turkeys out of planes just to fill up the sky / And we know damn well that they can't fly" 08:16:57 you don't record live speeches :P 08:17:00 IIRC, the one he actually read was done live. 08:17:01 elliott is a winner 08:17:13 thanx 08:17:49 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/390933.stm 08:17:49 Mmm, grog. 08:17:53 * shachaf groks some grog. 08:17:55 Bit weird, realising we went to the *moon* at a time where it was impractical to pre-record the President. 08:18:00 * pikhq groks some water 08:18:11 Brog like rocks! 08:18:15 Mmm! 08:18:26 kmc: have you been to the moon ?? 08:18:53 pikhq: not really impractical 08:19:18 i mean NASA recorded all that video from the moon on magnetic tape 08:19:24 and film works too 08:19:39 there's just not much of a point to it 08:19:50 kmc: At the time, you'd only record stuff if you wanted it to run more than once, in part because of the expense. 08:19:57 if the president can't be trusted to give a speech without fucking it up then... 08:20:06 * kmc reflects on 2001-2008 08:20:14 * pikhq joins kmc in reflection 08:20:22 If you have never been to the moon, can you prove it? 08:20:35 shit, if we reflect each other then we'll create a quantum time vortex that might rip the very fabric of spacetime from this channel! 08:20:56 What is a quantum time vortex? 08:21:02 what *isn't* a quantum time vortex, man 08:21:08 zzo38: It's a science thing. You wouldn't understand. 08:21:25 "We are working hard to convince both the Indians and the Pakis there's a way to deal with their problems without going to war." 08:21:28 *sob* 08:21:40 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/390933.stm 08:21:47 thus proving that the bbc news site has always been the best-designed of all the news sites 08:21:49 * elliott PATRIOTISM 08:21:49 @nixon 08:21:50 Politics would be a helluva good business if it weren't for the goddamned people. 08:22:08 (displays were tiny in 1999 so that probably looked non-terrible!) 08:22:14 elliott: 640x480? 08:22:25 "Labour "got it wrong" when it allowed uncontrolled immigration from new EU states in 2004, Ed Miliband will say in a speech later." 08:22:29 "The Labour leader will say people who worry about immigration are not "bigots"" 08:22:49 apparently labour has decided that moving to the right is an excellent idea at a time when the right-leaning coalition government is unpopular 08:23:12 and the most left-wing main party has become kinda unelectable 08:23:17 thx labour 08:23:25 thlabour 08:23:39 Isn't it a standard policy to always move right when your policies are unliked? 08:23:44 Can 5-HT_2A agonists take me to the moon? 08:23:49 Just in general? 08:23:54 kmc: *thabour 08:23:55 noob 08:24:09 shachaf: well, if you can raise $100M selling them 08:24:15 wut 08:24:21 Can you do that? 08:24:29 "I hear there's rumors on the internets [pause] that we're going to have a draft. We're not going to have a draft, period." — Bush, 2004 08:24:35 He actually said internets? 08:24:37 "in 2005, Space Adventures announced its intention to work with Russian Spacecraft manufacturer Energia and the Russian Space Agency to offer a roughly one-week two-passenger flight around the Moon (no orbit, no landing) in a booster-equipped Soyuz craft for $100 million per person, as early as 2010" 08:24:57 dude, "internets" is a fine word 08:25:14 Bush was just acknowledging the reality that the Internet is itself composed of smaller internetworks 08:25:16 kmc: Yes, but it doesn't refer (just) to the Internet. 08:25:31 I don't think Bush knows that much about internetworking. 08:25:41 The MULTInet. 08:25:44 DUDE 08:25:45 n.b. once they have your $100 million they will probably ask for more 08:25:48 http://wikitravel.org/en/Space 08:26:10 what if, like, every ip address that doesn't respond on the internet is like a BLACK HOLE 08:26:11 pikhq: as bushisms go that is really tame come on 08:26:14 you can do better than that 08:26:17 and, like, it has a whole new pocket internet inside it 08:26:25 a parallel multinet 08:26:38 kmc: "There are quite a few space-related places on the Earth itself." 08:26:48 elliott, is using DrRacket with the SICP language a good way to do SICP? 08:27:28 hi 08:27:35 "it's up to you" 08:27:49 elliott: Yeahyeahyeah. 08:27:52 elliott: I'd rather not. 08:28:17 elliott: I'm afraid if I go for the worse one's I'll shoot. Myself or someone else, either way it's undesirable. 08:28:22 s/one's/ones/ 08:28:40 kmc: The whole point of going to the moon is landing. 08:28:47 Why would you go and then not land? 08:28:49 i'm inclined to agree with you there 08:28:51 kmc: "The sight of the *Earth* from Space is reputed to be incomparable." 08:28:57 kmc: "At altitudes above the thick atmosphere, the *stars* cease to "twinkle"." 08:29:06 kmc: "*Sunrise* and *sunset* lose much of their multicolored glory, but take on greater intensity and speed at orbital and even suborbital velocities." 08:29:29 elliott: wow, I can get rid of my web browser 08:29:35 thanxs elliot 08:29:59 kmc: "Although Space food has come a long way in terms of taste and variety in recent decades, the quality and taste is still not up to standards of most connoisseurs of fine cuisine. Your transportation provider may offer some choice in the foods available, but you will ultimately be limited by their willingness to indulge you." 08:30:06 kmc: "Bigelow Aerospace, [13]. In 2006, they successfully tested the first prototype of an inflatable Space hotel. However, even if everything goes according to plan, the real thing won't be up in orbit before 2012." 08:30:09 elliott: BE SURE TO PASTE THE COPYRIGHT NOTICE TOO 08:30:17 kmc: "Text is available under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0, images are available under various licenses, see each image for details." 08:30:26 elliott: "i think kmc is hitnitng at somethign" 08:30:51 shachaf: waht could he poIBSlY be hinting at - god - gad - gud 08:31:19 yeah i was all ready to burn my draft card in 2003 08:31:38 instead i watched on TV as the children of more economically disadvantaged families fought the war 08:31:42 and then snarked about it on the internet 08:31:45 that's protest too rite? 08:31:56 Nah, just fucking depressing. 08:32:02 kmc: yes 08:32:04 kmc: you get a gold star 08:32:16 hey, remember when the USA literally filled a C-130 cargo plane with $20 bills and flew it to Iraq and then lost the money? 08:33:24 *groan* 08:33:59 kmc: Are the legal 5-HT_2A agonists any good? 08:34:10 didn't we discuss that recently 08:34:15 Did we? 08:34:24 2C-E is pretty good, if you consider that legal 08:34:45 Is that a 5Hwhatever? 08:34:48 yes 08:34:51 Oh. 08:34:56 2,5-dimethoxy-4-ethyl-phenethylamine 08:35:38 uh, 5-HT is a legal 5-HT agonist and is a pretty cool guy 08:35:54 not much good taking it orally though 08:35:57 What does the 2A part mean? 08:36:02 it's a receptor subtype 08:36:24 they're all serotonin (5-HT) receptors but there are different types which respond differently to different other chemicals 08:36:28 i don't know man, i'm not a neurochemist 08:37:10 to the extent these drugs have different effects, it's probably through different receptor type selectivity 08:37:12 You just work there. 08:37:28 the only really clear example I have is DiPT, which has a specific auditory effect which the others don't have 08:37:44 sort of a nonlinear pitch shift + flanging 08:38:00 i think shulgin got one of his musician friends with perfect pitch to take it 08:39:20 uh, 5-HTP is a metabolic precursor to 5-HT that you can buy at any dietary supplement store 08:39:24 over the counter 08:39:41 I'm no expert, but effects like that sound easier to do by just running some filters on a DSP or whatever, instead of trying to do it in your auditory system. 08:39:45 it's supposed to act as a mild antidepressant 08:40:12 fizzie: i think you are missing the point :) 08:40:17 also, you're not an expert? 08:40:22 one day it will be possible to generate sounds by physical simulation of vibration :D 08:40:31 i wonder how far away such things are 08:40:46 i think that was done in like the 80's 08:40:51 like most of the things itidus21 says will happen "one day" 08:41:09 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 08:41:19 They do physical-inspired string instrument simulation in our acoustics lab. 08:41:22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_modeling_synthesis 08:41:39 They've written some papers on Finnish instruments like the kantele. 08:41:46 -!- lahwran has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 08:42:06 They all include some amount of approximation, though. 08:42:12 sounds like a sensible starting point given that it's the stupidest instrument in the world 08:42:16 well i have a number in my nickname... like a robot! 08:42:23 apparently the electric kantele is used in finnish heavy metal 08:42:27 It's not exactly modeling strings at subatomic level. 08:42:43 modeling strings by modeling strings 08:42:46 this is what we demand 08:42:47 no less 08:42:50 zardoz has spoken 08:43:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:43:28 http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/research/asp/ 08:43:28 as they say, you can't simulate strings without understanding string theory 08:43:56 They also have some lutes. And "mainstream" stuff. 08:44:03 they also say you can tune a piano, but you can't tuna fish 08:44:09 I haven't really looked too closely. 08:45:31 mmmm shin ramyun 08:45:35 this is my new favorite snack 08:46:25 What is it? 08:46:33 Is it vegetarian? 08:46:35 instant ramen 08:46:48 far tastier and more filling than top ramen / maruchan 08:46:53 it's like $1 a pack instead of 20¢ 08:47:28 hm the one i have contains beef powder 08:47:30 But it's not vegetarian. 08:47:32 i don't know if they make other flavors 08:47:33 yeah :/ 08:47:38 it's also quite spicy 08:50:23 shachaf: Alas, that probably comes in two varieties: "with meat" and "animal genocide". 08:50:48 Which animal? 08:50:57 -!- fad has joined. 08:51:05 Genocide against the clade Animalia. 08:51:15 isn't that, like, regicide 08:51:58 -!- fad has left. 09:00:39 shachaf: here's the source to my com file https://gist.github.com/2971501 09:00:42 if you want to make it better 09:01:02 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:01:46 I like how the source file has the compiled binary in a comment. 09:02:34 BBC News headline: Player 'completes' Diablo III video game 09:03:28 shachaf: but i missed the opportunity to make the source code also an executable com file 09:04:08 -!- lahwran- has joined. 09:04:19 BBC is an example of the confusion 09:04:58 kmc: You know dot-coms haven't been "all the rage" for more than 10 years, right? 09:05:03 It's all about the agile social now. 09:05:05 i'm bringing it back 09:05:17 it's not the English Broadcasting Corporation, or the UK Broadcasting Corporation 09:07:03 "[The BBC's] main responsibility is to provide impartial public service broadcasting in the United Kingdom, Channel Islands and Isle of Man." 09:07:30 * itidus21 does a jig. 09:09:41 why are you jigging 09:09:49 [[In addition, he used a "hard core" character. This meant that, if the character died once, the game would be over. He also got in-game help from another player called Krippi.]] 09:09:54 journalism 09:10:09 itidus21: BBC does serve the parts of UK which are not in Britain 09:11:44 i think the UK situation is less complicated than NYC-area place names 09:11:52 ah 09:13:33 say, NYC, Manhattan (borough), Manhattan (island), Brooklyn, Kings County, Long Island, and "The City" 09:13:43 it's a bit of a mess to explain how these things relate geographically and politically 09:13:44 The City /= NYC? 09:13:49 kmc: Can you implement a better language than Haskell for me? 09:13:57 shachaf: some people use it to mean Manhattan 09:14:08 New York, New York, so good they named it once but then used the same name again 09:14:13 i don't *think* i made that up 09:14:17 elliott: And Manhattan is New York County! 09:14:17 probably because they were unimaginative 09:14:21 right 09:14:29 and if you live in manhattan you can get mail addressed to "New York, NY" 09:15:04 but not in the other parts of NYC? 09:15:19 i mean it will probably work but it's not proper 09:15:21 "SIPB, MIT, USA" 09:15:36 I was there once! 09:15:47 but you can have a New York, NY address even if you live in that part of Manhattan (borough) which is not on Manhattan (island) 09:15:58 but if you live there you can also have a Bronx, NY address, I think 09:16:04 Structure and Interpretation of Pomputer Brograms? 09:16:52 are brograms what a brogrammer writes 09:17:20 elliott: do they really use the word 'programmme' in britain 09:17:29 brogramme 09:17:53 I don't watch many brogrammes. I don't even own one. 09:18:01 but do you pay TV tax?!? 09:18:09 oh no ! 09:18:12 what's TV tax 09:18:36 in UK you have to pay a license fee to have a TV 09:18:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_licensing_in_the_United_Kingdom 09:18:56 "Licences are half price for the legally blind." 09:19:14 As of 2010, this costs £145.50 for colour and £49.00 for black and white.[1] 09:19:21 They should charge more for black and white. 09:19:43 Also, can we have us.wikipedia.org and uk.wikpedia.org? 09:20:11 lol 09:20:25 wikipædia.org 09:20:37 i guess au.wikipedia.org would be asking too much 09:21:21 shachaf: i see what you're saying now 09:21:31 also the BBC has vans which they claim can detect unlicensed TVs 09:21:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color 09:21:59 which is widely considered to be bullshit 09:23:30 "The color table should not be interpreted as a definitive list – the pure spectral colors form a continuous spectrum, and how it is divided into distinct colors linguistically is a matter of culture and historical contingency (although people everywhere have been shown to perceive colors in the same way[2])." 09:23:58 dude, what if, like, yeah 09:24:30 so uk.wikipedia.org could be s/color/colour 09:24:42 I'm more concerned with "license" and "licence". 09:24:46 Since the en. page uses both. 09:26:06 and yet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Favourite 09:27:33 "Successful minister-favourites also usually needed networks of their own favourites and relatives to help them carry out the work of government - Richelieu had his "créatures" and Olivares his "hechuras"." 09:27:56 shachaf: well you need to use one of each, so it will be legally binding in all jurisdictions 09:29:36 kmc: it is obviously bullshit 09:29:43 kmc: also they tend to pester people even if they don't own a tv 09:30:04 (otoh, the people who get *persistently* pestered by them tend to be the sorts who seem to be looking for something to complain about in the first place) 09:30:14 kmc: you should see their tv ads 09:30:28 let me find the one i'm thinking of 09:30:59 kmc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uIpbpSU3XA 09:33:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:34:05 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 09:52:28 http://www.2012ark.net/ 09:57:15 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 09:57:15 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 09:57:15 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 09:57:58 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:00:04 fizzie: erm, so where can you actually hear the results? 10:00:15 http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/research/asp/ just has a bunch of papers 10:00:44 oh sorry 10:02:49 and so what does that audio topic mean for me? quite simply a game with no pre-recorded audio! 10:05:38 i dunno much about sound and music and stuff.. but like for example, the current sound could be a function of the distances between all the geometrical game entities 10:07:02 like if there were 3 circles, then the sound could be a function of the average distance between them 10:08:04 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 10:32:09 i guess you would set up a virtual microphone which would recieve soundwaves 10:48:35 -!- Slereah has joined. 11:09:55 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 11:41:50 -!- ais523 has quit. 12:02:36 my turing machine! http://oi50.tinypic.com/29z9egm.jpg 12:16:29 -!- david_werecat has joined. 12:28:17 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 12:28:23 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:30:50 itidus21: simulating sound propogation is something that games have done for a long time 12:32:07 humm 12:32:43 kmc: it seems to me that a variable sound response could be a fun way to respond to a collision 12:33:52 like normally that collision response information seems to be used for, well, i'm not sure.. but it could be used as a function of how loud an impact is 12:35:41 i think that is done also 12:35:57 but most people have better sense than to do it :D 12:36:08 i'm confused 12:36:25 like when an object runs headlong into a wall and the velocity gets set to zero. the amount of velocity which was lost could produce a sound 12:36:30 yes 12:36:32 why is that a bad idea 12:37:24 i can't see any particular reason why 12:37:41 whatever 12:37:44 hmm 12:37:50 i think its a good idea 12:37:52 anyway, what you said about the circles flying around and making music and whatever 12:38:07 at first i assumed you were just talking about modeling sound propogation in an environment 12:38:13 which is not a novel idea -- games have done that for many years 12:38:27 but then i thought you meant something more like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditorium_(video_game) 12:38:30 which is a neat game 12:39:51 -!- lahwran- has quit (Changing host). 12:39:51 -!- lahwran- has joined. 12:39:58 -!- lahwran- has changed nick to lahwran. 12:40:47 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:41:35 kmc: well in this whole topic, im in trouble from the get-go... my conception of producing sound is nothing beyond the QBASIC function SOUND(frequency, duration) 12:42:03 actually i didnt know it had a duration argument until i looked it up just now 12:42:47 yeah i gathered as much 12:42:53 video game sound is in fact a bit more complex these days ;P 12:43:59 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:46:09 so, about 3 circles {a,b,c} .. what i had in mind was something like: n=distance(a,b)+distance(a,c)+distance(b,c)/3; SOUND(n,30 milliseconds?) 12:47:03 and actually i think it would be kind of cool in such a system how destroying one of the circles would lead to a sudden change in the sound 12:47:53 well n could be normalized into a comfortable set of frequencies 12:48:34 and this page says duration works in clock ticks.. that could be "tricky" 12:52:06 it was within the last few months i think that it clicked to me that sound can be produced within a physics simulation 12:52:54 to the extent that with enough computing power and good algorithms behind it, we could even hear how fictional objects and instruments might sound 12:53:52 ah but i don't even know what i mean by fictional objects! 12:56:39 perhaps we could simulate the sound of filling some time and place with air and putting a microphone there 12:59:41 i wonder if the truth is if i actually did more in my day i wouldn't feel the need to ramble 13:12:31 -!- boily has joined. 13:13:50 'morning, all! 13:16:02 hi 13:20:42 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:28:33 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:28:37 -!- AnotherTest1 has joined. 13:33:04 hi boily! 13:33:26 itidus21: http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.1895 13:33:57 brb! 13:34:01 -!- AnotherTest1 has changed nick to AnotherTest. 13:35:46 Gregor: infact i actually linked to the very same thing in this room once >:D 13:35:53 Ah 13:35:55 Okidoke 13:35:56 but it is time to take a closer look 13:36:03 i appreicate it though 13:36:21 i hadnt read it.. :-j white papers are mostly about reading the titles for me 13:37:07 but i am working on a cool turing machine 13:37:40 and lost deep in browser tab hell 13:38:35 mwahahaha 13:42:07 itidus21: turing machine and browser tabs... hmm... is it possible to crate a machine where the tape is an infinite stream of browser tabs? 13:44:13 boily: not on the iPad for sure(unless they changed that awful limit) 13:44:42 boily: well.. i am fascinated by the movement of a turtle shell in super mario bros. and the way the turtle shell resembles a tapehead 13:46:22 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 13:46:51 i think i am satisfied now that the turtle shell is a turing machine, not a turing complete language 13:48:48 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:49:29 * quintopia dislodges a spork and returns it to oerjan 13:57:44 yummy 13:57:55 thanks pal 14:08:35 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:17:58 -!- Patashu has changed nick to Patashu[Zzz]. 14:18:07 Patashu[Zzz]: don't do that :( 14:18:25 wow... so i go to google and i see the last thing i expected to see 14:19:07 https://www.google.com 14:19:28 Also, can we have us.wikipedia.org and uk.wikpedia.org? <-- you can have the latter. 14:19:35 er, +i 14:20:00 you may find it disappointingly non-british, though. 14:21:13 so this is the turing machine i made just now: http://oi47.tinypic.com/35n31ip.jpg 14:39:06 If you want you can 14:39:10 Try it out 14:39:24 On my awesome language! 14:39:25 http://esolangs.org/wiki/NTCM 14:58:44 Slereah: so i have a version of python on windows but i have no idea about python.. but it's giving invalid syntax for the > in "while b<>"esc":" 14:59:14 i assume that something in python has changed which has rendered old programs not working right 15:00:12 or that its something screwy with document formats etc 15:00:27 but something tells me i can assume the program itself is fine 15:03:10 itidus21: "<>" is a very, very old way to write "!=". 15:04:21 i think it just doesn't like the encoding.. 15:04:31 i'll sort it out i think 15:06:16 ok i told it the proper encoding 15:06:19 lets see 15:06:49 <> is obsolete, but still in the manual, so it should work... 15:07:06 *obsolescent 15:12:34 it still works in python 2 (2.7.3 on my machine), but chokes in python 3 (3.2.3). 15:17:02 is there an esolang which is based on the idea where the instruction pointer is at multiple positions at the same time 15:17:09 ? 15:17:36 (that is, always, not optionally) 15:20:41 ok it is working 15:21:36 what i had to change was to replace all the <> with != and to change print foo into print (foo) and change raw_input to input 15:22:17 ah so you have python 3 15:22:37 yeah, not for any good reason though 15:27:51 -!- john_metcalf has left. 15:29:45 i was gonna look into pygame but then i regained my self respect 15:39:10 hmm.. i piped it into a textfile.. which i think is pretty good for a novice windows user 15:39:27 and i quickly got 4mb of hello world! 15:40:59 which leads me to think, a file system should have optional size constraints 15:41:16 so you can say, this file cannot become larger than N bytes 15:41:41 << this is why i don't design OSs 15:53:58 * Phantom_Hoover wonders why Steam so often has to install DirectX. 15:53:58 Phantom_Hoover: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 15:54:03 You'd think once would be enough. 15:54:21 its conservation of installs 15:54:39 install windows once, install directx many 15:54:58 install linux many, install opengl once 16:02:53 But if you use Steam on Wine on Linux... D-8 16:03:14 I do 16:06:07 Gregor: did you put egobot on umlbox yet 16:07:24 Nope. 16:07:37 ok bye 16:13:48 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:13:56 -!- aloril has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:17:13 Hello 16:17:27 evening 16:19:25 Had an exam today 16:20:04 fancy 16:24:16 We have a national midsummer holiday day today; no exams. 16:24:23 Lots of fire, though. 16:28:25 -!- aloril has joined. 16:31:26 -!- FireFly has quit (Excess Flood). 16:34:46 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:37:48 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:37:53 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:39:16 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 16:42:21 Well, the exam went well 16:50:45 -!- atrapado has joined. 17:05:24 The lines in xkcd are thicker now 17:09:09 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8). 17:10:35 It might be a scale thing. The dude is taller than the last dude, too. 17:11:16 (I haven't checked if they stay a consistent size.) 17:28:14 itidus21 : So did the program work in the end? 17:28:30 Didn't use it in a while 17:28:36 yes :D 17:28:47 infact i just now got the use out of it i wanted 17:28:57 Woo! 17:29:07 but.. i will show you my turing machine in NTCM 17:29:38 [4[5:P0RI:0;0:P0RI:0;1:P1RI:0;2:P2RI:0;3:P3RI:0;4:P4RI:0]|0[5:P4LE:1;0:P0RI:0;1:P0RI:2;2:P1LE:1;3:P2LE:1;4:P4LE:1]|1[5:P4RI:0;0:P0LE:1;1:P0LE:3;2:P1RI:0;3:P2RI:0;4:P4RI:0]|2[5:P4LE:3;0:P0RI:2;1:P0RI:2;2:P1LE:3;3:P2LE:3;4:P0LE:1]|3[5:P4RI:2;0:P0LE:3;1:P0LE:3;2:P1RI:2;3:P2RI:2;4:P0RI:0]][0=5;ims=4;d10;vh;etFecF;t1] 17:31:13 also i added 2 or 3 lines of python so that it will animate the output so i can watch it move 17:32:18 since this machine is really for that purpose >:-) 17:35:45 Iiii don't have Python anymore 17:35:51 What does it do? 17:36:17 well.. it's inspired by super mario bros. turtle shells 17:36:32 NTCM? is that a list of states and transitions? i can almost read it. 17:36:41 it's about the head bouncing back and forth 17:37:22 4:P0LE:1 does that mean go to state 4, move left, leave behind a 1? 17:38:14 The "0=5;ims=4;d10;vh;etFecF;t1" seems somewhat nontrivial to figure out with no apriori knowledge. 17:38:23 no 17:38:27 it cant be 17:38:33 hmm it means if the symbol is 4, go to state 1, move left, and leave behind a 0 17:38:46 aha 17:41:13 Is this the turtle shell thing again? 17:41:27 fizzie: lol.. yes.. i didn't stop.. 17:41:39 but this is a more sophisticated turtle shell 17:42:53 It seems more complicated than would be necessary for just the left-right bounce. Incidentally, does that formulation permit a don't-move case? All I see is just PxRI or PxLE. 17:43:18 it does a few curious things 17:47:20 i did do a picture of it earlier though 17:47:31 but would that spoil all the fun of reading it in NTCM 17:48:42 http://oi47.tinypic.com/35n31ip.jpg 17:51:50 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:56:18 Hey, I vaguely recall JFLAP. 17:56:36 Maybe from a course or something. 17:56:58 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:57:07 the way it works is that when the head hits a 1, then the turtle shell becomes more powerful 17:57:12 i kind of like it 17:58:39 in addition when it hits a 3 that 3 becomes a 2, and next time it becomes a 1 17:59:19 ahh.. theres all kinds of zaniness that it does 18:00:30 Are you giving it an initial tape to play with? I mean, I might misremember the syntax, but the "square ; 4" bits make it look like it'd just put 4s at the edges. 18:01:21 yeah.. the sample input on the tape i used with NTCM is 40000001012122301040001001 18:01:32 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:01:33 in the NTCM version 5 is a blank 18:01:56 but when testing it with JFLAP i just put random things in similar to that 18:02:11 Hello 18:09:44 -!- FireFly has quit (Changing host). 18:09:44 -!- FireFly has joined. 18:22:37 hi 18:26:26 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:30:10 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:34:47 If we have a computer with 3D display, one thing that can be displayed would be 3D horoscopes. 18:35:56 (Some astrologers say all horoscopes that include objects other than the Sun are 3D, but they don't know what 3D means, that is why they are astrologers.) 18:53:08 `addquote (Some astrologers say all horoscopes that include objects other than the Sun are 3D, but they don't know what 3D means, that is why they are astrologers.) 18:53:12 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:53:12 845) (Some astrologers say all horoscopes that include objects other than the Sun are 3D, but they don't know what 3D means, that is why they are astrologers.) 18:54:10 i am temporarily happy.. i'm in that pattern where i keep working on a thing, unable to let it rest on it's laurels 18:54:32 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 18:55:00 it is probably not very readable now, but this is one hell of a kick ass turing machine in NTCM: 18:55:07 [4[ :P_RI:4;_:P_RI:4;*:P*RI:4;o:PoRI:4;O:PORI:4;|:P|RI:4;S:P_:0]|0[ :P|LE:1;_:P_RI:0;*:P_RI:2;o:P*LE:1;O:PoLE:1;|:P|LE:1;S:P_:0]|1[ :P|RI:0;_:P_LE:1;*:P_LE:3;o:P*RI:0;O:PoRI:0;|:P|RI:0;S:P_:1]|2[ :P|LE:3;_:P_RI:2;*:P_RI:2;o:P*LE:3;O:PoLE:3;|:P_LE:1;S:P_:2]|3[ :P|RI:2;_:P_LE:3;*:P_LE:3;o:P*RI:2;O:PoRI:2;|:P_RI:0;S:P_:3]][0= ;ims=4;d13;vh;etFecF;t1] 19:01:09 Gregor: Do you like this quotation? 19:01:49 Yes. Quite. 19:01:57 No, he hates it. That is why he added it. 19:03:03 Do you agree? Do you have any experience in these matters? 19:19:49 Our "CS theory: basics" course had some turing machine writing exercises; I remember liking those. 19:21:22 They were kind on the trivial side. 19:21:37 -!- monqy has joined. 19:21:49 "Design a two-tape TM that recognizes the language {wcw | w \in {a,b}*}" -- an actual example. 19:22:05 That's, like, "write the word, check the word". 19:23:23 I might've done a single-tape version that just checked letter-by-letter symmetrically around the c, not sure, but that's not terribly interesting either. 19:23:41 @messages? 19:23:41 monqy: You have 8 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 19:23:55 Oh, there's also a "design a three-tape TM that adds two binary numbers" question. 19:24:37 when will this thing let go of me 19:24:52 i don't want to edit the TM any more 19:25:42 Oh, there is in fact a third question that's "Design a non-deterministic (single-tape) TM that recognizes {wcw | w \in {a,b}*}. How about a deterministic one?" That's why I had that one-tape version. 19:26:51 i don't even know how to recognize things with a TM 19:27:26 That's just code for "make one that ends up in a particular state when X". 19:28:01 based on an input? 19:28:16 Input typically being the initial contents of the tape. 19:28:42 my TMs are about having fun playing with the tape 19:29:01 they achieve little of actual value 19:29:17 "Recognizes language X" meaning "ends up in state Q whenever the initial content of the tape is a word in language X, and doesn't otherwise". 19:29:43 I wouldn't necessarily say these have any actual value either, they're all quite boring. 19:30:03 I mean, there's even the {a^n b a^n | n >= 0} that you don't even need a TM for. 19:30:07 im gonna now post the umpteenth update of my turtle shell thing 19:30:26 [6[ :P_LE:6;_:P_LE:6;*:P*LE:6;o:PoLE:6;O:POLE:6;|:P|LE:6;S:P_:6;>:P>LE:1;<:P:P>RI:5;<:P:P>RI:4;<:P:P>RI:0;<:P:P>LE:1;<:P 19:30:26 :P>:5;<:P<:6]|3[ :P|RI:2;_:P_LE:3;*:P_LE:3;o:P*RI:2;O:PoRI:2;|:P_RI:0;S:P_:3;>:P>:5;<:P<:6]][0= ;ims=4;d13;vh;etFecF;t1;input.txt] 19:31:03 Okay, maybe the one that adds binary numbers could be said to have some sort of value, but still. 19:31:18 i don't expect it can be ledgible there.. but this is the greatest TM! 19:31:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:35:12 actually of course it goes without saying it's not 19:35:39 Actually, I think I might've liked these "design a grammar" exercises more. It's almost like writing Thue, except you get course credits. (Indirectly, anyway.) 19:36:22 There's stuff like "design an unrestricted grammar that produces {w \in {a,b,c}* | w has equal amounts of a's, b's and c's}". 19:36:33 this thing basically tries to be like super mario bros 19:36:45 Or {a^(2^n) | n >= 0}. Okay, so they're kinda boring tasks, but it's still funtimes. 19:37:07 I can't even immediately say why the a^(2^n) one works. 19:37:51 (It's probably overly complicated.) 19:38:30 if you imagine each square on the tape is a graphics tile, and that the head is a turtle shell, that is the best way to understand my TM 19:39:31 then again, there may be other valid ways of understanding it 19:39:54 "S -> >AP< | e; PA -> AAP; P< -> Q< | R; AQ -> QA; >Q -> >P; AR -> Ra; >R -> e" where e's epsilon. I guess it's just a "keep either doubling the amount of A's or alternatively make them all a's and remove the trash". 19:40:42 Actually scratch that "| e" from S, that's obviously bogus, what can I have been thinking? 19:46:34 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:55:38 I want to make closed/automatic instances in Haskell or Ibtlfmm. In Haskell you might have: auto_instance :: ([Type] -> Q (Maybe [Dec])) -> Q [Dec]; You can use this in a class declaration to make it closed and automatic. 19:56:27 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:56:29 Hello! 19:57:02 hi 19:57:29 elliott, if you want to pretend to be good at sport, Germany is winning 19:57:45 Against Greece 19:58:10 Also, does anyone feel like explaining Volume of Revolution to me? 19:58:27 You just rotate a thing. 19:59:05 Oh, I see 19:59:45 It's like a surface of revolution, except you rotate some sort of a blorp and take the insides, instead of rotating a curve and taking just the shell. 20:00:08 Assume my teachers are awful and are teaching me volume of revolution before surface 20:00:54 Well, you know, you take a filled disc and rotate it around a suitable axis outside it, and you get a solid (volume) of revolution that makes a donut. 20:00:57 Taneb: what's sport 20:01:09 elliott, it's a thing that normal people sometimes talk about 20:01:31 It's found on the back page of some newspapers 20:01:44 Taneb, OK so when you rotate a curve about the x-axis you get a circularly symmetric volume. 20:01:55 Okay, I see that 20:02:09 I remember this from my days of playing with Google SketchUp 20:02:20 The area of a cross section of this volume at distance x along the axis is pi*y^2. 20:02:39 (Where y is the curve, obviously.) 20:02:41 Yes 20:02:42 If you just rotate a curve, you probably just get a surface. 20:02:44 That makes sense 20:03:07 You can speak of the volume inside it, of course. 20:03:43 To find the volume, you integrate the cross sectional area along the x axis; i.e., integral from a to b pi*y^2 dx. 20:03:53 elliott, Greece has scored and they're tying 20:04:08 Phantom_Hoover, ooh 20:04:42 Oh, so you wanted to know the volume of a solid of revolution, not just know general things about a "volume of revolution", which I think I've seen used as a synonym for a solid of revolution before. 20:05:14 Okay 20:05:40 fizzie, I've just got the slides from a lecture I missed due to my exam, and I'm trying to figure it out 20:06:42 elliott, Germany's winning again 20:07:29 Right, well, you can integrate that stuff. If what you want is not "rotate the surface between this curve and the X axis" but instead something like "surface between these two curves" (like if you wanted a hole inside the thing), you might want to use the areas of disc-with-a-hole regions. 20:09:40 Thanks fizzie and Phantom_Hoover 20:09:51 I've understood enough to decipher this 20:12:55 POV-Ray has surface of revolution as one of its object types. (And I'm pretty sure regular 3D modelers like Blender have a tool that'll take a segmented line of N points, rotate it with K steps, and make a N*K point mesh, but POV-Ray actually does intersection tests with the real surface, if I've understood correctly.) 20:13:29 I mean, the curve is sampled, but the rotated surface part if it is right. 20:15:05 (And the points of the curve can be connected by different kind of splines.) 20:16:14 (Okay, there are details and a different-but-related 'lathe' object, but that's all probably outside the scope of this message.) 20:19:27 elliott, it's 4-1 to Germany 20:20:17 Was this still that football thing? 20:20:41 Yeah 20:20:48 It's in the knock-out stage now 20:21:48 POV-Ray trivia: it has a "sphere sweep" object type that I think is pretty much meant for making tentacles. (Okay, I guess it could make some sort of tubes too.) 20:22:15 (It's the shape of an object sweeped by a sphere that moves from place to place and varies its radius.) 20:22:19 POV-Ray is on my list of things to learn 20:22:49 It's kind of a silly thing. It's like you write this text stuff in a rude imitation of a programming language, and out comes a picture. 20:23:03 I guess you can also use it as a back-end renderer, but that sounds terribly pointless. 20:23:04 I've tried to use it before 20:23:19 I got a pink sphere on a yellow background 20:23:41 I also have the dubious honour of having my code removed from Uncyclopedia 20:23:52 See, here's a sphere-sweep tutorial, and it's all about tentacles: http://cronodon.com/PovRay/Tentacles.html 20:24:18 http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/index.php?title=Haskell&action=historysubmit&diff=5520895&oldid=5520863 20:24:55 "Revert Anon; let us charitably assume he doesn't realize this is a humor site" 20:25:56 (for the record, it was not me who added it to the site, nor was it me who removed it) 20:26:25 It's a bit of a shame, since I think it looks nice. 20:26:59 Just don't try to run it with numbers more than 9 20:27:09 It works /in theory' 20:27:42 But in practise? 20:27:48 http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Haskell 20:27:50 thanks david 20:28:15 It's trying to store 10! in strict unary encoded by functions 20:29:00 you're welcome 20:29:59 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 20:31:26 It looks like something similar to a SK combinator program 20:31:36 Yeah, it essentially si 20:31:40 *is 20:33:16 S = (<*>), K = pure, unsafeCoerce = I 20:34:46 Taneb: Yes I noticed that 20:35:31 Probably the most core-dumps I've ever caused in one day, writing that 20:36:48 What is a good way in a C program to make a white noise? 20:38:15 zzo38, cat /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp ??? 20:38:44 atrapado: No, I mean in C 20:39:09 well, uniform or gaussian white noise... just some random samples 20:39:35 just take some random samples 20:40:08 even from rand() or similar 20:40:11 But how can I make a random real numbers in a C code in both Windows and UNIX? 20:40:38 that I do not know 20:41:09 It sounds like you will have to decide whether you want to use rand() or to embed your own PRNG. 20:41:12 well, do you need quite random of just pseudorandom 20:42:25 You can make uniformly distributed double-precision floats from rand() e.g. for the [-0.5, 0.5] interval by dividing the output by (double)RAND_MAX and subtracting 0.5. 20:42:28 2.0 * ((double) rand() / (double)RANDMAX - 0.5) ??? 20:43:07 There's an underscore in the constant. And you only need the latter cast, the rules for finding a common type for / will make it double. 20:43:36 Well, you only need one cast, to be more exact. It could be the first one, too. 20:45:00 Pseudorandom is good enough, and it doesn't matter if different implementations differ although it might be best to have one built-in so that the quality does not degrade too much with different implementation. I want to make it for audio, it will then be converted to integers after calculation finish 20:45:55 for audio I think rand() is enough 20:46:14 but maybe you want to add a seed 20:46:28 I'm reasonably sure even a regular linear-congruential PRNG that you can do in one line will be good enough for audio purposes, if you want to get the exact same results everywhere. 20:46:29 for avoiding always the same sequence 20:46:49 it may sound recognoscible 20:50:40 -!- atehwa has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:50:48 -!- atehwa has joined. 20:54:16 I'm slightly curious what it's for, though. 20:54:44 It is a program to make .IT files. You can load external samples, although I also put a simple synthesizer with a few wave forms (including random); other things such as vibrato, tremolo, ADSR, filter, etc, can be provided by .IT format themself (and this program does include commands to enter those commands into the .IT) 20:55:18 It is called ITMCK and is somewhat based on PPMCK (which is used to make .NSF) 20:56:00 That is what it is for. Do you like this? 20:56:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:56:16 to see my turing machine in action visit this TM simulator http://morphett.info/turing/turing.html and the pastebin has the necessary code and explanation http://pastebin.com/XJf4cPyd 20:56:24 Oh, that thing again. 20:56:43 I should have guesseded, I guess. 20:56:50 sounds like fun 20:57:27 fizzie: How many programs have you used to write music? Have you written the music on paper? 20:58:00 ive written music 20:58:06 never on paper 20:58:50 zzo38: I don't write music, so I don't really have an opinion. My IT file format experiences are from a different angle. 20:59:31 i wrote a lot of music in mpt, but i never studied the file format 21:00:39 -!- david_werecat has quit (Quit: Page closed). 21:01:05 quintopia: Still it would help, if you have written the music perhaps you would have some opinion about the synthesizers and other features of the music 21:01:22 Including if there are some things you think MPT lacks, or some features you don't use 21:04:44 -!- george97 has joined. 21:04:44 -!- george97 has quit (Client Quit). 21:07:13 fwiw this is a more interesting input "....888.s..c..>.|..8.8.8.8.8.8.8.8.8.8....|...<...888.c.c...c." 21:12:07 When making a computer program which displays the spherical coordinates of the object in space, for the longitudinal angles there can be hours (right ascension and hour angle), astrological signs (ecliptic longitude), and degrees (both). For latitudinal angles degrees are used, but I think another option should be to allow grads for latitudinal angles. 21:16:15 -!- george97 has joined. 21:16:33 -!- george97 has left. 21:20:56 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:46:32 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:46:53 How does a white noise change if raised to an exponent? 21:55:58 It shouldn't. As long as the samples are all uncorrelated and zero-mean and finite-variance, the power spectrum will be flat. 21:56:31 Frequency-wise, that is. The amplitude distribution is clearly different. 21:56:38 But it's still a white noise. 21:57:18 Speaking of which, it *might* (though it's perhaps best to ask a music-maker's opinion) be a good idea to provide a pink noise source also, since that's kind of a more natural noise. (White has relatively much stuff at high frequencies.) Even given that it's probably possible to get something pinkish with the IT filters. 21:59:05 I have used "L" for square/pulse wave, "N" for saw wave, "V" for triangle wave, letter omitted for sine wave, what letter for white and pink noise? Also how to generate pink noise? 21:59:49 Well, W and P come to mind. Though the white noise could also be R for random. 22:00:17 I was at first using R for white noise, so I could keep it that way. 22:00:31 So now I can put P for pink noise too 22:01:02 (Although do you know why I have chosen L, N, and V? Maybe it is clear to you, maybe not.) 22:01:25 Oh, I guess it's the letter shapes. 22:01:47 The noises don't probably have so good letters. 22:02:06 What is why we select letters based on different reasons for the noise. 22:02:10 s/What/That/ 22:02:51 Anyhoo. There's two well-known ways to do pink noise; one's to generate white noise and apply a filter that approximates a 1/f frequency response (a third-order one could be close enough) while the second uses K (e.g. K=6) white noise sources, and updates each at different rate. (Basically getting a staircase-like approximation.) 22:03:27 OK 22:04:17 I have this bookmark on it: http://www.firstpr.com.au/dsp/pink-noise/ 22:04:24 OK 22:08:04 Some of the discussion is a bit overly DSP-oriented. Like the improvement to the several-white-noise-sources that makes the work/sample constant, which isn't really an issue except in a DSP implementation. 22:09:56 *sigh* I feel more like a code monkey than a developer when I write LSL 22:10:02 How do I fix myself? 22:10:09 don't write lsl 22:10:41 I like to blame the lagginess of the built-in LSL editor >.> 22:10:47 Code monkeys are also developers too. 22:13:20 Sgeo, use objectopattern synergies or whatever it is that developers stereotypically use 22:15:02 Goodnight 22:15:03 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:17:01 -!- calamari has joined. 22:18:43 I'd probably go with the "economy" filter mentioned there, the http://www.musicdsp.org/files/pink.txt 22:21:34 I have already written something and it does multiple white noise updating at different rates (using "R(divider),(amplitude),(exponent)" and then if you have more than one, they are added together) 22:23:49 Well, that's very possible too. 22:34:09 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 22:38:32 -!- derdon has joined. 22:44:29 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:51:39 -!- copumpkin has joined. 22:51:44 One thing I also haven't thought of yet, is how the table of the effect rows (which will be converted to patterns) should be internally represented. I currently have: typedef struct chan_row { byte note; byte instrument; byte effectid; byte effectpar; byte volumeset; byte continue_flag; /* 0x01=effect 0x02=volume 0x04=zero next effect */ } chan_row; 23:00:22 -!- aloril has joined. 23:03:25 -!- MDude has joined. 23:10:29 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:14:46 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu. 23:20:08 http://google.co.uk/ 23:22:33 -!- ais523 has quit. 23:35:52 nice 23:41:42 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:42:09 -!- derdon has joined. 23:45:07 -!- derdon has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 23:50:21 -!- augur_ has joined. 23:50:25 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:53:58 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:54:15 -!- augur has joined.