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02:29:26 <coppro> I should write a language where type conversions are not idempotent
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03:09:59 <quintopia> time for space elevator to move into second place. sorry slowpoke.
03:10:09 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/WEWc
03:10:18 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 50.8
03:11:22 <quintopia> it's second place on the new scoring system at least
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03:40:18 <quintopia> !bfjoust moves_olsner_to_the_bottom [>[-]+]
03:40:21 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_moves_olsner_to_the_bottom: 8.1
03:41:52 <quintopia> and that is the problem with the current scoring system
03:42:13 <quintopia> the stupidest program beats all of olsner's, but they remain relatively high-ranking
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03:47:37 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}[-]])%6(+)*2>)*3((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}[+]])%6(+)*2>)*18](+)*2)*21
03:47:40 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 51.3
04:02:40 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/bKSD
04:02:43 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 49.0
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04:02:59 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/WEWc
04:03:02 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 51.1
04:09:43 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/DNTi
04:09:46 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 51.3
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04:20:55 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/LcSj
04:20:58 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 52.0
04:30:05 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/VbOQ
04:30:08 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 54.6
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04:58:17 <myndzi> high score for a simple looking program
04:58:32 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/AMJF
04:58:35 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 55.5
04:59:10 <quintopia> myndzi: by the new scoring system, this new version of space_elevator has top score. waiting for gregor to return to install it.
05:04:14 <myndzi> oh, there's a new scoring system
05:04:19 <myndzi> also i was talking about 3pac, didn't click any links
05:04:53 <myndzi> amusingly slowrush is still chillin' at halfway
05:05:11 <myndzi> what is this new system?
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05:41:29 <kmc> > text "\o/"
05:41:31 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
05:41:36 <kmc> > text "\\o/"
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10:19:12 <ion> When applying for a job in Germany, use one of these fonts in your CV. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_OS0MkeqUXug/S5FWyNniaXI/AAAAAAAAAfQ/fySzP2mYrjU/s400/Gothic_types_Third_Reich.jpg
10:37:51 <ion> http://designtaxi.com/news/352757/Apple-s-Clothing-Line-From-The-80s/
10:48:58 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}[-]])%6(+)*2>)*2((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}[+]])%6(+)*2>)*18](+)*2)*21
10:49:06 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_3pac: 51.7
10:57:44 <ais523> someone linked me to this, and it's actually pretty hilarious: http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/uxpil/ive_been_playing_the_same_game_of_civilization_ii/
10:57:45 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
10:57:50 <lambdabot> elliott said 21h 41m 32s ago: Haha, all your programs drop like 10 places.
10:57:51 <lambdabot> elliott said 21h 41m 13s ago: Oh wait, it's not places, it's points.
10:57:51 <lambdabot> elliott said 21h 41m 9s ago: Score.
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11:47:45 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/QLDh
11:47:50 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 56.5
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14:17:02 <nortti> is there a list of net gtlds?
14:17:55 <elliott> http://facebook.google.youtube/
14:18:35 <fizzie> nortti: http://newgtlds.icann.org/en/program-status/application-results/strings-1200utc-13jun12-en if you mean the new ones.
14:18:39 <fizzie> http://www.iana.org/domains/root/db and filter out the ones that say "country-code", if you mean the old ones.
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14:19:58 <fizzie> Quite a few ".cloud"s.
14:20:25 <fizzie> Hey, City of Helsinki has applied for .helsinki.
14:21:34 <fizzie> I guess they got tired of having to share "helsinki.fi" with Helsinki University, who had gotten it before they could. (They only have "hel.fi" for their own.)
14:23:07 <fizzie> Our university should hurry up and get the .aalto.
14:24:35 <fizzie> Two applicants for that, I see.
14:24:41 <elliott> fizzie: so are most of those likely to be accepted or are there limits or some kind of stringent requirement or sth
14:25:40 <fizzie> There are requirements, but they sounded to me mostly financial, making sure the applicant is not going to go immediately out of business and so on.
14:27:18 <fizzie> There's a public comment period and whatnot for complaints, though.
14:29:13 <fizzie> The eglibility section says just "established corporations, organizations, or institutions in good standing". And there's some financial escrow stuff. And things like "no convicted criminals" rules.
14:30:17 <fizzie> "Has been involved in a pattern of adverse, final decisions indicating that the applicant or individual named in the application was engaged in cybersquatting as defined in the Uniform Domain Name Dispute Resolution Policy (UDRP), the [blah blah blah] or [bleh bleh bleh]."
14:30:27 <fizzie> But I'd think most of them pass these kinds of things.
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15:03:16 <nortti> http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/tiesitko_etta.jpg
15:27:00 <fizzie> Sounds like sensible advice.
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15:33:19 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/VVjb
15:33:22 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 53.7
15:33:27 <quintopia> that bug has been annoying me for ages
15:33:40 <fizzie> Yeah, the "Hello!" bug is indeed quite annoying.
15:33:52 <quintopia> i delete it, and then i change somethign else, and i have to download the buggy version again
15:34:00 <quintopia> now it is fixed and uploaded and shan't return again!
15:34:08 <Sgeo_> http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/snopescom-debunks-old-c-interview-hoax
15:34:23 <Sgeo_> I always thought that "interview" was a joke
15:34:27 <Sgeo_> People actually believe it?
15:34:36 <quintopia> it's strange that the score went down
15:34:39 <elliott> oh good for a minute there i thought sgeo believed the interview was real
15:34:42 <quintopia> something else is changed in there
15:36:44 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
15:36:47 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_elevator http://sprunge.us/edUD
15:36:50 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_elevator: 56.2
16:05:05 <elliott> quintopia: have you tried using death_to_defence's clear loop
16:06:51 <quintopia> elliott: i am beating all of the defence programs already. why should i?
16:07:24 <elliott> to defeat future defence programs?
16:07:50 <quintopia> i started writing a similar program to death_to_defence once
16:08:17 <quintopia> it was several MB long before i quit and allowed it to vanish when my computer rebooted
16:10:25 <quintopia> i admit the idea of a timer clear followed by a different kind of clear is nigh-unlockable. i expect to see such clears wipe out defense programs entirely in the future
16:10:41 <elliott> quintopia: didn't you see ais523 found a counter?
16:13:42 <quintopia> yeah it looks neat. it also looks imminently defeatable by the right kind of clear
16:14:02 <elliott> pretty much every strategy is defeatable by another strategy
16:14:11 <elliott> (do you mean "eminently"?)
16:14:48 <quintopia> i mean that i suspect that we'll so have clears that there is just no way to compactly lock
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16:22:54 <ion> https://twitter.com/StephenAtHome/status/209852174669320195
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16:31:52 <ion> https://s3.amazonaws.com/f.cl.ly/items/3j2l3u43110U2G0P1F2K/monolith.jpg
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16:33:41 <HackEgo> djerro: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:34:16 -!- quintopia has set topic: forking | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/FQgC.
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16:53:02 <Taneb> I've been thinking about Free monads and Cofree comonads
16:55:34 <Taneb> Maybe is Free Proxy; Identity is Cofree Proxy
17:00:50 <Taneb> It's almost (,) Peano
17:01:36 <copumpkin> it's just Const () or something like that
17:01:52 <elliott> copumpkin: Proxy === Const ()
17:02:08 <copumpkin> but the name Proxy has additional connotations which are irrelevant here
17:02:27 <copumpkin> that's why I said "I wouldn't think of it as"
17:02:28 <elliott> Taneb: Free Maybe *is* (,) Nat, isn't it?
17:04:26 <copumpkin> it's not quite (,) Nat considering codata
17:05:01 <copumpkin> since with Free Maybe you need to go all the way to the bottom to hit that a
17:05:28 <copumpkin> but if it's data, then they should be equivalent
17:05:47 <copumpkin> (different computationally though)
17:06:28 <copumpkin> even if it's data, you still need to traverse the "nat" all the way to the bottom to project out the a
17:06:36 <copumpkin> whereas with a pair it's constant time
17:07:10 <copumpkin> the reason I comment on it is that I've been dealing with a very similar situation a lot when trying to encode skew-binary in agda
17:07:18 <copumpkin> with an eye on complexity (proofs)
17:17:04 <Taneb> Free Maybe is different because it could have a Nothing at some point
17:17:17 <Taneb> Free Identity is (,) Nat
17:18:16 <elliott> how do you represent (fix Succ, 42)
17:19:26 <Taneb> fix (Pure . Identity)
17:21:48 <Taneb> it's Either BloodyRidiculousInfinityStupidThing (Nat, a)
17:29:30 <copumpkin> so it's not anything particularly interesting
17:31:47 <elliott> Taneb: no, Nat has infty :)
17:32:01 <Taneb> Is Conat finite only?
17:32:13 <elliott> conat is data Conat = Z | S Conat
17:32:31 <ion> Conat Ellioll
17:32:36 <Taneb> Not the other way round?
17:33:01 <elliott> codata is potentially infinite
17:33:12 <elliott> ion: watch monqy play crawl thx
17:33:21 <ion> What server?
17:33:24 <elliott> ion: he's doing all the branches on the orb run
17:33:26 <elliott> telnet light.bitprayer.com
17:33:54 <elliott> ion: (he just did orb run tomb:3 using mephitic cloud as a replacement for pnoise)
17:34:03 <ion> I began playing Thief. Also, posted http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=26146
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17:34:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wait, is that distinction particularly obvious in Haskell?
17:35:04 <elliott> ion: (he did all branchless runes first and is now entering the branches for the first times; he's got the vaults and tomb runes so far)
17:35:13 <ion> I also tried Dungeons of Dredmor. Its perspective is just as annoying as i thought it would be when looking at screenshots. And IT NEEDS AUTOEXPLORE.
17:35:15 <elliott> erm, with zot:3 in the middle of that
17:35:19 <elliott> (light's equivalent of zot:5)
17:35:23 <ion> elliott: ok
17:35:54 <elliott> ion: oh yeah, he also hasn't found a source of conservation all game
17:36:41 <elliott> ion: oh also also he ha sno heal wounds
17:36:46 <elliott> i think he might be out of healing (curing) too
17:36:54 <elliott> all his potions got shattered more or less
17:37:04 <ion> Of course.
17:38:31 <ion> The Random Number God in action.
17:38:58 <elliott> what a great bug/something
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17:42:45 <elliott> ion: #CrawlLight for "running commentary"
17:43:48 <ion> I’m on too many channels already. :-(
17:44:21 <elliott> ion: You'll miss me announcing all the pan lord names!
17:44:31 <nortti> ion: how many channel are you on?
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17:46:39 <ion> Wow, 58 already. (But many of them are related to smallish projects and have next to no traffic, and some i don’t really follow regularly.)
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17:46:58 <elliott> You should swap one of them for #CrawlLight!
17:47:11 <ion> I’ll join temporarily. :-P
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18:50:46 <oerjan> quintopia: hey why you remove my diff :(
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18:57:35 <oerjan> i find it slightly disturbing that attack1 is there and not in report.txt
18:57:48 <oerjan> (that was the case with the previous diff too)
19:22:35 -!- oerjan has set topic: forking | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This is what the bfjoust hill will look like under the new scoring system: http://sprunge.us/FQgC | Older example diff at http://pastebin.com/RhjNMDnE.
19:23:21 <oerjan> i made that kludging around in vim, so i cannot be bothered to regenerate it
19:27:59 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wait, is that distinction particularly obvious in Haskell?
19:28:24 <oerjan> haskell tends to default to codata more than other languages
19:29:06 <oerjan> and ! strictness annotation can then make it data instead
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19:31:26 <oerjan> e.g. haskell's infinite lists are a prime example of codata
19:33:24 <Taneb> If I had any say in Haskell, and to be honest I'm glad I don't
19:33:43 <Taneb> I'd scrap lists, and use streams and sequences
19:33:52 <Taneb> Whether infinite or finite
19:33:54 <Phantom__Hoover> It's obvious in e.g. Coq and Agda because they don't allow unrestricted recursion.
19:36:33 <oerjan> Taneb: how is a stream different from a list?
19:36:54 <Taneb> By stream I generally mean infinite stream
19:37:59 <oerjan> that would make lazy finite lists impossible
19:38:20 <Taneb> Hence why I'm glad I have no real power in the Haskell community
19:41:16 <Taneb> Mild annoyance about Data.Sequence:
19:41:26 <Taneb> Seq isn't an instance of Applicative and Alternative
19:41:36 <Taneb> Despite being an instance of both Monad and MonadPlus
19:44:37 <oerjan> sounds like it should be fixed
20:06:26 <olsner> oerjan: so a +25 in the diff means that the place number has increased, i.e. that it's gone down by 25 steps?
20:10:11 <olsner> looks like my worst program did best in terms of going down the least
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20:32:21 <olsner> shachaf: what, you want me to change back?
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21:37:42 <quintopia> oerjan: because the hill (both mine and the egobot one) have changed since you made it. i changed the link in the topic, so it didnt make sense to leave the diff.
21:40:16 <quintopia> you should make that rusher that figures out what offsets to use on the fly :P
21:40:40 <quintopia> also why does shudderlock succeed in locking dtd?
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21:51:30 <ais523> quintopia: because dtd changes strategy, and the lock loop chosen locks both the original strategy and the strategy it changes to, given some constant tweaking
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21:51:42 <ais523> (it doesn't require a huge amount of constant tweaking, there's a lot of values that work)
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22:11:04 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Huh. Why?
22:11:10 <elliott> (OK, the Atlantic is probably no real loss, at least.)
22:12:10 <Phantom__Hoover> The admins are being kind of cagey about it but reading between the lines they've been mass-spamming and manipulating voting.
22:13:46 <Phantom__Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/TheoryOfReddit/comments/v03qc/physorg_is_not_allowed_on_reddit_this_domain_has/
22:14:03 <Phantom__Hoover> violentacrez is spearheading it so of course bitterness and accusations of fascism abound.
22:14:34 <elliott> I think I'll skip, if violentacrez is involved. Also since I remember /r/TheoryOfReddit being insufferable.
22:15:46 <quintopia> ais523: would a clear that changes strategy several times, trying several different cycle lengths, be possible to represent as compactly as dtd?
22:15:50 <elliott> OK, I lied. But after seeing "Drinking the Citizens United Kool-Aid again? DOMAINS ARE NOT PEOPLE. THEY CANNOT BE "RESPONSIBLE" FOR ANYTHING." I don't think this thread can get any better, so I'm now closing the tab.
22:16:41 <quintopia> and i think such a strategy would not be (permanently) lockable
22:16:50 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Doesn't every action he has done since it was shut down constitute that?
22:16:53 <ais523> quintopia: you can do it with a regular timer clear, but you get a combinatorial explosion with a flexible timer clear like dtd
22:17:04 <ais523> such strategies beat shudderlock, but lose to anticipation
22:17:05 <elliott> (Actually I haven't heard anything about him since then, so maybe he sulked off or something.)
22:17:31 <quintopia> ais523: how does anticipation do it?
22:17:32 <ais523> you might be able to combine them in a way that beats both shudderlock and anticipation, I guess, but then you'd be able to write a program that was a mix of shudderlock and anticipation that beat them again, probably
22:17:46 <quintopia> (and doesnt anticipation suffer from combinatorial explosion?)
22:17:57 <elliott> "What special search terms do I need to look up information on writing external BBS software packages?"
22:18:01 <ais523> quintopia: it relies on the opponent using the same clear loop on every second cell (most programs do that, in fact most use the same loop on every cell but some alternate polarity)
22:18:02 <elliott> what a ridiculous SO question
22:18:07 <ais523> and no, anticipation is linear, not exponential
22:18:11 <ais523> it's just got a huge constant factor
22:18:36 <quintopia> so anticipation can figure out any cycle length?
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22:20:15 <elliott> ais523: You should wake monqy up.
22:20:34 <ais523> quintopia: yes, but it needs a different case for each cycle length
22:20:52 <ais523> you can defeat it easily by changing between three or more different clear loops, or two in an XXYYXXYY pattern rather than alternating
22:21:01 <ais523> but most programs don't do that, that's the only reason it works
22:21:56 <quintopia> ais523: a different case for each cycle length being "it took 128 cycles, it took 130 cycles, it took 132 cycles, etc."?
22:22:15 <ais523> and each needs an entire full-tape clear in it
22:22:29 <quintopia> yeah i can see how that would get big fast :P
22:22:31 <ais523> which is a simple algorithm, but which can't be expressed succinctly
22:22:47 <ais523> elliott: I don't see how I can if you can't
22:22:57 <ais523> unless he's someone I know in RL but don't know he's monqy
22:23:21 <ais523> really, I'd prefer BF Joust if it just had a "full-tape clear" command
22:23:27 <quintopia> ais523: he lives here iirc. yo wouldnt know him.
22:23:55 <quintopia> i could probably wake him up in a couple hours given his address
22:23:58 <elliott> ais523: Well, you live in the US, right?
22:24:09 <elliott> quintopia: Wait, you're in California?
22:24:21 <ais523> elliott: oh, I thought quintopia was implying that monqy lived in #esoteric
22:24:43 <quintopia> i prefer NES and SNES was thinking of cakeprophet/kallisti
22:24:49 <ais523> and no, I live within walking distance of Hexham, if you allow the walk to take several weeks
22:25:22 <elliott> yeah, NES and SNES are better than California
22:25:30 <quintopia> that originally started with "never mind, i..."
22:25:46 <elliott> you + me + taneb can have an #esoteric meetup
22:25:54 <ais523> elliott: not right now, I'm busy on Thursday and busy on Friday
22:26:04 <quintopia> you guys should all walk to georgia.
22:26:27 <elliott> how about the other way around
22:26:36 <quintopia> juust wait for an ice age, and you could walk here over the land bridge in a few years
22:27:35 <elliott> I couldn't survive an apocalypse. I don't even have any bitcoins.
22:27:45 <elliott> Well, I think I have like...
22:27:56 <elliott> Probably enough for 10 pounds or something by now.
22:28:03 <elliott> And then 1 penny in a few months.
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22:52:51 <HackEgo> cheesey: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:56:26 <cheesey> Cheers :) came here from the wiki actually, might lurk and attempt to contribute for a bit if nobody minds.
22:56:42 <cheesey> Though I haven't done much with building programming languages in a few years, I'd like to get back into it
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23:31:55 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Wake monqy up, god dammit.
23:32:37 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Fly to California.
23:32:44 <shachaf> elliott: I'm already *in* California!
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23:34:17 <elliott> shachaf: Then the rest is up to you.
23:34:21 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Yes, that should work.
23:34:34 <shachaf> elliott: where does monqy live !
23:34:48 <elliott> monqy: I'M GOING TO DO A LABRYINTH IF YOU DON'T WAKE UP
23:35:06 <shachaf> elliott: is the answer:: lompoc, california
23:38:18 <nortti_> http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/photoshop/7/7/2/133772_v1.jpg
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