00:02:01 -!- madbr has joined. 00:05:09 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:05:44 * Phantom_Hoover -> sleep 00:05:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:08:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:12:08 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:17:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:23:00 !bfjoust davidwerecat_awful_22 ->+>->(-)*8>-->(+)*8>++>(-)*8>(+)*8(+)*8<(-)*8<++<(+)*8<--<(-)*8<-<+(+)*60>>>>>>>>([[+[+[--[-[-[(-)*22[+][-]]]]]]]]>)*21 00:23:08 Score for david_werecat_davidwerecat_awful_22: 42.1 00:23:50 not that awful 00:23:58 Apparently... 00:24:44 it's so awful it failed at being awful 00:25:58 -!- glogbackup has left. 00:26:05 But what if it failed at failing to fail? 00:27:08 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:31:59 > fix fail 00:32:00 "" 00:37:06 oops 00:42:34 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:50:33 -!- PatashuXantheres has joined. 00:51:25 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 00:51:27 -!- PatashuXantheres has changed nick to Patashu. 00:58:35 -!- PatashuXantheres has joined. 00:59:08 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:59:36 -!- PatashuXantheres has changed nick to Patashu. 01:13:04 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:18:04 -!- elliott has joined. 01:18:05 -!- rszeno has left. 01:27:12 -!- Fishspill has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:31:43 -!- drocta has joined. 01:31:58 is this about esoteric programming languages? 01:32:39 yep 01:32:43 `welcome drocta 01:32:45 ok cool. 01:32:46 drocta: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 01:32:58 thanks. 01:34:16 so I wrote what I think is called a design doc for one, I'm not sure its clear enough though. its based on tuples. does anyone want to see it? 01:36:07 its about one page down long. 01:38:56 you can put it on the wiki if you want 01:39:24 the channel is a bit silent at the moment 01:39:29 hi 01:39:41 oh elliott is still here. scratch that then. 01:39:47 hello 01:39:57 oerjan: creys 01:40:33 huh? 01:40:57 probably something about creyfish 01:42:33 yes 01:42:37 and bulldozers 01:42:39 and the sun & the moon 01:42:52 :? 01:43:15 it is slightly possible that elliott is getting tired, it's _way_ past his bedtime. 01:43:21 it's only 02:43 01:43:35 i did become a giraffe though 01:43:45 drocta: i run the wiki btw 01:43:58 oh cool 01:43:59 (well, as of february or so) 01:45:02 so does a language based on tuples dieing sound at all interesting? and also all the things the tuples consist of are tuples, 01:45:22 tuplocide 01:45:49 yeah 01:46:08 so far ive been calling it ~ATH (tilde ath till death) 01:46:38 what sort of flow control does it use? 01:46:57 there are ~ATH loops that loop until the tuple dies 01:47:27 (pretty much while loops) 01:48:29 how does it do i/o? 01:48:33 it doesnt yet 01:48:43 it actually doesnt have strings yet 01:48:48 i/o is so overrated 01:48:53 or even numbers, you have to implemetn numbers 01:49:01 yay 01:49:06 you should make it have i/o based on tuples 01:49:14 thats what I was thinking 01:49:37 like, the first charecter would be the left half 01:49:47 the second would be the left half of the right half 01:50:00 and the third wold be the left of the right of the right and so on 01:50:23 ...you seem to be reinventing lisp lists there. 01:50:37 kinda? 01:51:10 did this ever get posted here? http://colinm.org/language_checklist.html 01:51:51 Several times, I think. 01:51:51 a life-safer! 01:51:57 or destroyer, maybe 01:52:21 http://pastebin.com/n5eUm5UL is the design doc so far 01:53:08 ahaha I have a language that qualifies for [ ] Computers have infinite memory 01:53:24 haven't found how to garbage collect it yet but it's really hard 01:54:22 ohgosh i didnt see that the wordwrap would be a problem like that 01:56:10 [ ] You have reinvented PHP better, but that's still no justification 01:56:12 ahahahahaha 01:56:52 yeah, so, does php really have that bad of a reputation or? 01:57:49 yes 01:57:55 ok. 01:58:44 * oerjan likes [ ] Shift-reduce conflicts in parsing seem to be resolved using rand() 01:59:02 phhh 02:00:01 dude 02:00:14 make a language where that's the only means of flow control 02:00:20 -!- glogbackup has joined. 02:00:43 [ ] The name of your language makes it impossible to find on Google 02:01:28 i think there have been previous ~ATH attempts before 02:01:34 not sure 02:01:43 disappointing lack of colour 02:02:04 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 02:02:07 there have been? 02:02:24 ive seen what people have written in it, but didnt know anyone wrote an interpreter 02:02:36 (I wrote bubblesort in it) 02:02:42 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 02:03:32 looks weird 02:03:47 speaking of the interpreter, is storing the variables and objects in tries to memory intensive? 02:04:13 !bfjoust awful_24 ->+>->(-)*8>-->(+)*8>++>(-)*8>(+)*8(+)*8<(-)*8<++<(+)*8<--<(-)*8<-<+(+)*60>(-)*60>>>>>>>([+[+[+[+[-----[-[-[-[(-)*22[+][-]]]]]]]]]]>)*21 02:04:16 Score for david_werecat_awful_24: 45.7 02:06:25 *too memory intensive 02:07:28 drocta: don't worry about it 02:08:25 ok, thanks. I don't really have a good feel for how much memory it too much yet. 02:10:42 if a language only has one type, is it strongly typed, dynamically typed, or what? 02:10:44 probably nothing is too much 02:10:50 drocta: it's unityped 02:10:53 you can view it as untyped 02:10:58 or a statically-typed language with one type 02:11:03 or a dynamically-typed language with one type 02:11:06 it doesn't really matter 02:11:09 ok. 02:13:39 Wow. 02:13:44 A non-spam email to lang@esoteric.sange.fi. 02:13:53 atehwa: You ran those lists, right? Who did you bribe? 02:22:00 hmm... so far it seems ~ATH exhibits at least 29 of those problems. 02:25:07 it's rather hard to avoid those marked with have/lacks, i'd say 02:25:32 *has 02:28:42 shift-reduce conflicts? 02:29:10 not sure exactly what those are 02:31:02 Sgeo: a type of ambiguity in LR(1) parsers. for example if you write a grammar rule expression ::= expression "+" expression, you get a shift-reduce conflict when parsing something like 1+2+3 02:32:24 at the second +, should you _shift_ the + onto the parsing stack, which means parsing it as 1+(2+3), or should you _reduce_ the already parsed 1+2 part first, giving (1+2)+3 instead. 02:33:28 which means how to resolve shift-reduce conflicts determines e.g. the precedence of operators 02:34:17 -!- mtve has joined. 02:36:08 (and vice versa, in yacc/bison the result of annotating tokens with precedence is to automatically choose shift or reduce in the resulting state machine) 02:38:04 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:38:43 the gist of that quote is "your language's syntax is so horrible no one can guess better than rand() how it parses" 02:42:29 * madbr rocks out to rick astley 03:17:14 http://www-static.us.worlds.net/news/news_general.html 03:17:20 News for today 03:17:29 (Music news) 03:18:05 If you're from the past, anyway 03:18:41 hey i'm from the past! 03:19:22 that's from 2001 nice 03:20:00 And explain the whole Brainfuck thing. Anybody I know would say that's a swear word, and everybody 03:20:00 else as well. 03:20:01 Tyler Z 03:22:31 -!- madbr has left. 03:34:10 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 03:38:46 -!- drocta has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:05:16 -!- asiekierka has joined. 04:21:22 monqy: hi 04:21:42 hello 04:21:42 monqy: You have 6 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 04:21:53 did anyth--oh--ing happen while i was away 04:22:06 no 04:24:01 great lambdabot messags 04:24:50 yes 04:39:03 monqy: Can I have some great λ⊥ messages? 04:39:06 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:39:18 @ask shachaf yes 04:39:18 Consider it noted. 04:42:24 @ask monqy thanks 04:42:25 Consider it noted. 04:42:32 @messages 04:42:32 shachaf asked 7s ago: thanks 04:42:40 @ask lambdabot Hey, where's my message notification? 04:42:40 Nice try ;) 04:42:58 @tell lambdabot I WAS ASKING YOU QUESTION. 04:42:59 Nice try ;) 04:51:46 -!- aloril has joined. 05:02:41 elliott: I happened to be there when Chris (from Catseye) lost his faith in the community, so to say. 05:02:59 that must have happened multiple times 05:03:21 well, this particular time Chris' reaction was something you could call trolling 05:03:41 that's what i'd call a fair proportion of things chris does :P 05:03:46 as he was quite influential in the community, this created a lot of confusion 05:03:50 or so it seemed to me 05:03:55 When was that? 05:04:04 (Anyway, I was asking who you bribed to get new non-spam posts today.) 05:04:12 so I just offered to take the responsibility, and got Chris' support. 05:04:18 aaa 05:04:19 :) 05:04:26 Did cpressey used to run the list? 05:04:33 I could bribe myself, right? 05:04:55 yes, it was originally esoteric@catseye.mb.ca or something like that 05:05:06 it's the first esolang community that I know of 05:05:11 quite productive, too. 05:05:23 I take it all the archives are lost to history 05:05:25 heh, fsvo productive 05:15:18 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:18:58 @esoteric archives do exist 05:18:58 Unknown command, try @list 05:19:12 lessee 05:19:50 http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/ 05:20:36 but... I don't know about catseye 05:21:47 'fcourse, list participants probably have their own archives of the discussions. 05:23:29 right, the wiki links to the sange.fi archives 05:36:02 -!- itidus21 has joined. 05:51:05 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:52:20 I guess the only trouble with the cookie law is that any law which the public actually likes can't be a good thing. 05:53:07 what is the cookie law 05:53:56 it's a law, it's not a joke or a fad 05:54:22 I thought it was appropriate timing although I suspect the law /will/ end up being a fad 05:57:07 so they have to warn users about cookies in britain? 05:57:18 and let them opt-out? 05:57:40 yes 05:57:52 see http://www.ja.net/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/ for examples 05:58:02 maybe you need to go on a news page on the latter to see it 05:58:04 oh also 05:58:07 htt://bt.com/ 05:58:12 http://bt.com/ 05:58:40 wow click change settings that's a lot of cookie settings 05:59:12 well, i suppose i'm not opposed to the idea 05:59:53 i like that android apps report which actions they will be permitted to take 06:07:09 I like how those permissions are so coarse-grained as to be basically useless. 06:07:29 Why is the only level of "do anything with the SD card" "do everything with the SD card"? 06:10:36 I like how windows shifts responsibility onto a non-existant system administrator when something goes wrong. 06:12:02 it never actually checks your priviliges before saying that 06:13:35 -!- MoALTz has joined. 06:14:07 shachaf: the permission is "write to external storage" i think reading is automatically permitted 06:14:21 but the file system still has standard permission sets 06:32:39 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 06:35:20 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:47:52 -!- aloril has joined. 06:57:30 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:58:16 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 06:58:34 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 06:58:34 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 07:00:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:10:04 -!- aloril has joined. 07:10:39 -!- atehwa_ has joined. 07:11:03 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:11:04 -!- atehwa has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:11:04 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:11:04 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:12:07 -!- yiyus has joined. 07:12:39 -!- quintopia has joined. 07:15:28 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:16:26 -!- rodgort has joined. 07:19:06 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: kwertii). 07:23:03 -!- nooga has joined. 07:27:37 -!- aloril has joined. 07:33:45 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:35:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 07:54:00 Did we have anyone from University of Helsinki? 07:54:15 Because I'm at your Exactum now. 07:55:03 Though I guess my actual point is already a bit moot. 07:59:22 -!- Taneb has joined. 07:59:32 Hello! 08:04:25 O(Hell), the worst time complexity. 08:06:13 There's a guy here talking about a new kind of statistics. 08:06:34 It's a "summary"-ish thing of his new book, http://www.amazon.com/Optimal-Estimation-Parameters-Jorma-Rissanen/dp/1107004748 08:35:10 -!- lambdabot has joined. 08:35:39 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 08:35:49 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:36:55 Fizzle: So, what is it about 08:36:59 fizzie, does it involve getting loads of grunts to look through tables of data for behaviour that loosely resembles the real world and then telling everyone what a genius you are? 08:43:10 Patashu: "fizzle" 08:43:13 This ain't the 90s. 08:43:34 oh 08:43:35 foshizzle 08:49:07 Patashu: The Amazon page has a description. 08:49:23 But this man is the most arrogant person alive, I think. 08:50:03 it does have a description 08:50:08 but I don't feel enlightened after reading it 08:50:09 Optimal Estimation of Parameters is a ridiculously profound book title. 08:50:13 what does it do, besides estimate things well 08:50:19 It's hard to get more all-encompassing than that. 08:50:24 Optimal Method of Doing THings 08:50:25 *Things 08:50:43 elliott: He says everyone else is pretty much totally wrong about everything. 08:50:56 elliott: Both frequentists and Bayesians. 08:51:06 I think I like this guy. 08:51:17 That praise does seem rather high. 08:52:14 fizzie: are there any examples of his work I can read without paying for them? 08:52:58 fizzie: So what's his version? 08:55:57 elliott: It is not terribly easy to understand, honestly. But he says it's a generalization of ML where the "model selection" is part of it, but also a generalization of the MDL principle. 08:57:28 fizzie: What's ML here? 08:57:46 -!- Ngevd has joined. 08:57:54 I'm... 08:58:00 I'm not sure what just happened 08:58:24 death 08:58:26 Patashu: I'm sure his "famous" papers are somewhere; he's sort of counted as the inventor of arithmetic coding, and the MDL principle, both well-known things. 08:58:36 Maximum-likelihood estimation. 08:58:46 Arithmetic coding? So he's not a quack, then. 08:59:38 Patashu: http://www.mdl-research.org/jorma.rissanen/ -- there's a list of selected papers there. 09:00:08 http://www.mdl-research.org/jorma.rissanen/rissanen.jpg 09:00:16 this is a guy who knows a lot about optimal estimation of parameters 09:00:54 He is very certain about this thing. 09:01:36 He has estimated the parameters optimally 09:01:36 So how wrong is he? 09:01:38 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:01:43 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb. 09:01:43 "You have been too much influenced by this traditional nonsense" -- a verbatim quote about his answer to some comments afterward. 09:03:41 Anyway, I don't suppose he's "wrong" if you strictly accept his definitions and just look at the mathematical consequences. 09:03:52 But of course I haven't read the book. 09:04:07 Anyway, free-lunch time. -> 09:04:22 To summarize, the traditional dogmatic approach to statistical model building, in which prob- 09:04:23 abilities are viewed as inherent properties of `random' data and restricted to them, is resting on 09:04:23 shaky logical foundations. 09:06:02 this is dense 09:16:35 -!- foocraft_ has joined. 09:20:16 But this man is the most arrogant person alive, I think. 09:20:26 What about the person to whom I subtly alluded? 09:22:40 Wow, centipedes walk in a really cool way. 09:28:53 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:35:03 -!- asiekierka has quit (Disconnected by services). 09:35:29 -!- asiekierka_ has joined. 09:39:16 http://assets.cambridge.org/97811070/04740/frontmatter/9781107004740_frontmatter.pdf page 7 (last page) is perhaps a better description, in the sense that it mentions how everyone is wrong. 09:44:12 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 09:44:47 :D 09:49:06 It's funny because now we're going to have presentations for four papers, and I'd wager a guess there's going to be Bayesian principles involved. (He was especially critical of their "worthless nonsense".) 09:49:24 So he likes the frequentists more? 09:50:47 I don't think so. He just mentioned them less. But he did say their hypothesis testing is pure nonsense, while he does it right using his theory of perfectly perfect perfectstimators. 09:51:24 They are optimal "in every relevant sense" (direct quote from slides). 09:52:01 there are irrelevant senses to be optimal in? 09:52:18 Patashu: What combo should I play? 09:52:40 Sure, like "optimal in a practical application" or whatever. 09:53:15 elliott: crawl, crawl light or 4.1 09:53:26 stone soup 09:53:30 powergamer or playabl 09:53:34 (i think the light people get offended if you call it not-crawl) 09:53:39 Patashu: i want to get >xl 15 09:53:46 i have low tolerance for the standard hunger mechanics 09:53:52 (i.e. not being able to eat corpses most of the time and the like) 09:54:05 you could try troll fighter-something 09:54:08 trolls have gourmand 09:54:18 and really good uc 09:54:18 also not really looking to be a squishy fully-spells mage 09:54:26 (melee w/ buff spells are fine) 09:54:36 Patashu: trolls are a bit op aren't they 09:54:40 not really 09:54:40 (i don't play anything sufficiently popular) 09:54:42 they have shit defenses and apts 09:54:49 they can throw rocks though 09:54:53 i don't like ranged 09:55:06 well you'll be hitting things with your claws mostly 09:55:12 since you can't get rocks until cyclopses start appearing 09:55:35 (my current combo of the moment is ghak, previously ghmo*makhleb) 09:55:41 (before that dsak i think) 09:55:48 (ds sucks because hunger) 09:55:49 ghak is good 09:55:53 it's oldwon :P 09:56:03 really? 09:56:04 yeah 09:56:07 well, shrug. gh is good, ak is good 09:56:10 which is strange because it's pretty good 09:56:12 so ghak must be good 09:56:19 Patashu: heavy armour or light armour melee fighter w/ buffs 09:56:33 well 09:56:36 that depends on what books you find, doesn't it 09:56:39 since ak 09:56:46 yes 09:56:48 but i hate deciding late :( 09:56:52 i like to wear my heavy armour early 09:56:55 assume heavy armour 09:57:04 and then switch if i find nice books? ok 09:57:06 yeah 09:57:13 since p(heavy armour) > p(good book) 09:57:22 science 09:57:40 is that valid in the optimal estimation of parameters method 09:57:49 (for example, as an ogre/troll p(heavy armour) < p(good book) ) 09:57:49 yes 09:58:02 oh right trolls have stupid armour 09:58:15 what happened here 09:58:19 ? 09:58:22 see my game 09:58:50 that's a vault 09:58:56 i know 09:58:59 I think it's meant to be a butcher stall 09:58:59 it's just weird :P 09:59:16 mmm 09:59:18 very profitable for ghoule 09:59:36 ugh 09:59:40 i miss area saccing 10:00:03 I think 'pray' and 'butcher' should move towards the thing you most recently killed 10:00:09 popping it off like a stack as you keep pressing it 10:00:11 (fr) 10:00:14 light's is better 10:00:16 it just sacs every corpse in los 10:00:22 ok but does light have area butchering 10:00:23 (oh wait no food) 10:00:26 yes 10:00:29 you don't need to butcher :p 10:00:30 although you can 10:00:32 it's just pointless 10:00:34 what about for sublimation of blood 10:00:37 or simulacrum 10:00:38 yeah 10:00:40 you can do it then 10:00:42 "such fun" 10:00:45 Patashu: oh assuming heavy armour is a pain 10:00:48 'cuz i need to raise stats 10:00:55 you only need 18 str for plate 10:02:53 fuck 10:03:07 help 10:03:10 you are not vbery good at this 'running away from things' game mechanic 10:03:19 what about for sublimation of blood 10:03:25 This is DF right 10:03:30 crawl 10:03:41 meh 10:03:43 try again 10:03:46 rip elliott killed by: unoptimal play 10:03:47 But DF is the only thing that would simulate the sublimation point of blood 10:03:49 wait 10:03:52 haha 10:03:55 Patashu: it's because i tabbed it before i realised it was an iguana 10:03:55 how can blood even sublime 10:04:01 unless your blood is a gas 10:04:01 it's magic 10:04:21 nice 10:04:22 +2 robe 10:04:31 you know what would be funny 10:04:38 if randomly you'd start in the abyss instead of in the dungeon, like an ak 10:04:44 except instead of dying at 0 hp you'd wake up in the dungeon 10:04:49 and it'd say 'Whew, what an awful dream!' 10:04:54 what 10:04:55 nice worm 10:04:56 wormdeath 10:04:59 that worm was op 10:05:01 let's try that again 10:05:02 wooorms 10:05:15 constr op 10:05:24 blink as first scroll nice 10:09:25 woow what a good strategy 10:09:50 lets try again 10:09:54 with less stupid chokepoint strategy 10:10:19 rest in peace me 10:10:37 the problem is that crawl is boring 10:10:38 so i play fast 10:11:52 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services). 10:11:53 -!- PatashuXantheres has joined. 10:14:45 wow 10:14:46 christ 10:14:57 -!- PatashuXantheres has changed nick to Patashu. 10:15:09 it seems weird that everything is killing you 10:15:12 I never have any problems playing crawl 10:15:18 well 10:15:23 i don't die this easily with ghak usually 10:15:25 i'm not sure what's op 10:15:26 up 10:16:14 haha shit 10:17:31 Is cygwin good for using simple utilities like grep, or are there better alternatives 10:17:41 it is fine for grep 10:17:43 cygwin works, it also comes in dll format 10:17:59 Although I already have cygwin installed and I'm lazy, so... 10:18:01 Oh, ok 10:18:10 if you install cygwin and put it on your path (or just put the bash utilities you want in a folder with the cygwin dll, and put that on your path) you can use them from your windows shell 10:18:18 I can type grep blah blah blah and it just works and I'm on windows 7 10:18:21 feels great 10:19:12 jessicastabbing 10:19:14 jessica's tabbing 10:19:53 nice ijyb 10:20:24 uh oh 10:20:26 purgy is bad news right 10:20:35 Purgy (T) | Spd: 10 | Int: normal (doors) | HD: 5 | HP: 35 | AC/EV: 1/12 | Dam: 9, 4, 4 | Fl: regen | Res: magic(13) | Chunks: contam | XP: 134. 10:20:42 if your ac sucks I guess 10:20:45 you don't have to fight him 10:20:46 so don't 10:20:48 oh that's fine 10:20:55 yikes 10:21:14 LOL 10:21:14 LOL 10:21:16 where the fuck did he come from 10:23:41 ok so 10:23:43 let's try that again 10:24:01 nice anaconda skeleton 10:24:06 wow lots of zombies 10:25:04 yesss 10:25:04 pizza 10:25:35 Patashu: anyway you probably just play really boringly 10:25:45 i couldn't stand to play hyper-carefully in earlygame so i go by instinct 10:25:52 earlygame includes up to like lair:3 10:26:01