←2012-05-28 2012-05-29 2012-05-30→ ↑2012 ↑all
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00:23:00 <david_werecat> !bfjoust davidwerecat_awful_22 ->+>->(-)*8>-->(+)*8>++>(-)*8>(+)*8(+)*8<(-)*8<++<(+)*8<--<(-)*8<-<+(+)*60>>>>>>>>([[+[+[--[-[-[(-)*22[+][-]]]]]]]]>)*21
00:23:08 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_davidwerecat_awful_22: 42.1
00:23:50 <elliott> not that awful
00:23:58 <david_werecat> Apparently...
00:24:44 <elliott> it's so awful it failed at being awful
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00:26:05 <david_werecat> But what if it failed at failing to fail?
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00:31:59 <oerjan> > fix fail
00:32:00 <lambdabot> ""
00:37:06 <elliott> oops
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01:31:58 <drocta> is this about esoteric programming languages?
01:32:39 <oerjan> yep
01:32:43 <oerjan> `welcome drocta
01:32:45 <drocta> ok cool.
01:32:46 <HackEgo> drocta: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:32:58 <drocta> thanks.
01:34:16 <drocta> so I wrote what I think is called a design doc for one, I'm not sure its clear enough though. its based on tuples. does anyone want to see it?
01:36:07 <drocta> its about one page down long.
01:38:56 <oerjan> you can put it on the wiki if you want
01:39:24 <oerjan> the channel is a bit silent at the moment
01:39:29 <elliott> hi
01:39:41 <oerjan> oh elliott is still here. scratch that then.
01:39:47 <drocta> hello
01:39:57 <elliott> oerjan: creys
01:40:33 <drocta> huh?
01:40:57 <oerjan> probably something about creyfish
01:42:33 <elliott> yes
01:42:37 <elliott> and bulldozers
01:42:39 <elliott> and the sun & the moon
01:42:52 <drocta> :?
01:43:15 <oerjan> it is slightly possible that elliott is getting tired, it's _way_ past his bedtime.
01:43:21 <elliott> it's only 02:43
01:43:35 <elliott> i did become a giraffe though
01:43:45 <elliott> drocta: i run the wiki btw
01:43:58 <drocta> oh cool
01:43:59 <elliott> (well, as of february or so)
01:45:02 <drocta> so does a language based on tuples dieing sound at all interesting? and also all the things the tuples consist of are tuples,
01:45:22 <oerjan> tuplocide
01:45:49 <drocta> yeah
01:46:08 <drocta> so far ive been calling it ~ATH (tilde ath till death)
01:46:38 <madbr> what sort of flow control does it use?
01:46:57 <drocta> there are ~ATH loops that loop until the tuple dies
01:47:27 <drocta> (pretty much while loops)
01:48:29 <madbr> how does it do i/o?
01:48:33 <drocta> it doesnt yet
01:48:43 <drocta> it actually doesnt have strings yet
01:48:48 <oerjan> i/o is so overrated
01:48:53 <drocta> or even numbers, you have to implemetn numbers
01:49:01 <oerjan> yay
01:49:06 <madbr> you should make it have i/o based on tuples
01:49:14 <drocta> thats what I was thinking
01:49:37 <drocta> like, the first charecter would be the left half
01:49:47 <drocta> the second would be the left half of the right half
01:50:00 <drocta> and the third wold be the left of the right of the right and so on
01:50:23 <oerjan> ...you seem to be reinventing lisp lists there.
01:50:37 <drocta> kinda?
01:51:10 <kmc> did this ever get posted here? http://colinm.org/language_checklist.html
01:51:51 <shachaf> Several times, I think.
01:51:51 <oerjan> a life-safer!
01:51:57 <oerjan> or destroyer, maybe
01:52:21 <drocta> http://pastebin.com/n5eUm5UL is the design doc so far
01:53:08 <madbr> ahaha I have a language that qualifies for [ ] Computers have infinite memory
01:53:24 <madbr> haven't found how to garbage collect it yet but it's really hard
01:54:22 <drocta> ohgosh i didnt see that the wordwrap would be a problem like that
01:56:10 <madbr> [ ] You have reinvented PHP better, but that's still no justification
01:56:12 <madbr> ahahahahaha
01:56:52 <drocta> yeah, so, does php really have that bad of a reputation or?
01:57:49 <madbr> yes
01:57:55 <drocta> ok.
01:58:44 * oerjan likes [ ] Shift-reduce conflicts in parsing seem to be resolved using rand()
01:59:02 <drocta> phhh
02:00:01 <madbr> dude
02:00:14 <madbr> make a language where that's the only means of flow control
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02:00:43 <drocta> [ ] The name of your language makes it impossible to find on Google
02:01:28 <elliott> i think there have been previous ~ATH attempts before
02:01:34 <elliott> not sure
02:01:43 <elliott> disappointing lack of colour
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02:02:07 <drocta> there have been?
02:02:24 <drocta> ive seen what people have written in it, but didnt know anyone wrote an interpreter
02:02:36 <drocta> (I wrote bubblesort in it)
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02:03:32 <madbr> looks weird
02:03:47 <drocta> speaking of the interpreter, is storing the variables and objects in tries to memory intensive?
02:04:13 <david_werecat> !bfjoust awful_24 ->+>->(-)*8>-->(+)*8>++>(-)*8>(+)*8(+)*8<(-)*8<++<(+)*8<--<(-)*8<-<+(+)*60>(-)*60>>>>>>>([+[+[+[+[-----[-[-[-[(-)*22[+][-]]]]]]]]]]>)*21
02:04:16 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_awful_24: 45.7
02:06:25 <drocta> *too memory intensive
02:07:28 <elliott> drocta: don't worry about it
02:08:25 <drocta> ok, thanks. I don't really have a good feel for how much memory it too much yet.
02:10:42 <drocta> if a language only has one type, is it strongly typed, dynamically typed, or what?
02:10:44 <elliott> probably nothing is too much
02:10:50 <elliott> drocta: it's unityped
02:10:53 <elliott> you can view it as untyped
02:10:58 <elliott> or a statically-typed language with one type
02:11:03 <elliott> or a dynamically-typed language with one type
02:11:06 <elliott> it doesn't really matter
02:11:09 <drocta> ok.
02:13:39 <elliott> Wow.
02:13:44 <elliott> A non-spam email to lang@esoteric.sange.fi.
02:13:53 <elliott> atehwa: You ran those lists, right? Who did you bribe?
02:22:00 <drocta> hmm... so far it seems ~ATH exhibits at least 29 of those problems.
02:25:07 <oerjan> it's rather hard to avoid those marked with have/lacks, i'd say
02:25:32 <oerjan> *has
02:28:42 <Sgeo> shift-reduce conflicts?
02:29:10 <drocta> not sure exactly what those are
02:31:02 <oerjan> Sgeo: a type of ambiguity in LR(1) parsers. for example if you write a grammar rule expression ::= expression "+" expression, you get a shift-reduce conflict when parsing something like 1+2+3
02:32:24 <oerjan> at the second +, should you _shift_ the + onto the parsing stack, which means parsing it as 1+(2+3), or should you _reduce_ the already parsed 1+2 part first, giving (1+2)+3 instead.
02:33:28 <oerjan> which means how to resolve shift-reduce conflicts determines e.g. the precedence of operators
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02:36:08 <oerjan> (and vice versa, in yacc/bison the result of annotating tokens with precedence is to automatically choose shift or reduce in the resulting state machine)
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02:38:43 <oerjan> the gist of that quote is "your language's syntax is so horrible no one can guess better than rand() how it parses"
02:42:29 * madbr rocks out to rick astley
03:17:14 <Sgeo> http://www-static.us.worlds.net/news/news_general.html
03:17:20 <Sgeo> News for today
03:17:29 <Sgeo> (Music news)
03:18:05 <Sgeo> If you're from the past, anyway
03:18:41 <oerjan> hey i'm from the past!
03:19:22 <elliott> that's from 2001 nice
03:20:00 <elliott> And explain the whole Brainfuck thing. Anybody I know would say that's a swear word, and everybody
03:20:00 <elliott> else as well.
03:20:01 <elliott> Tyler Z
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04:21:22 <elliott> monqy: hi
04:21:42 <monqy> hello
04:21:42 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 6 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
04:21:53 <monqy> did anyth--oh--ing happen while i was away
04:22:06 <elliott> no
04:24:01 <monqy> great lambdabot messags
04:24:50 <elliott> yes
04:39:03 <shachaf> monqy: Can I have some great λ⊥ messages?
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04:39:18 <monqy> @ask shachaf yes
04:39:18 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
04:42:24 <shachaf> @ask monqy thanks
04:42:25 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
04:42:32 <monqy> @messages
04:42:32 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 7s ago: thanks
04:42:40 <shachaf> @ask lambdabot Hey, where's my message notification?
04:42:40 <lambdabot> Nice try ;)
04:42:58 <shachaf> @tell lambdabot I WAS ASKING YOU QUESTION.
04:42:59 <lambdabot> Nice try ;)
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05:02:41 <atehwa> elliott: I happened to be there when Chris (from Catseye) lost his faith in the community, so to say.
05:02:59 <elliott> that must have happened multiple times
05:03:21 <atehwa> well, this particular time Chris' reaction was something you could call trolling
05:03:41 <elliott> that's what i'd call a fair proportion of things chris does :P
05:03:46 <atehwa> as he was quite influential in the community, this created a lot of confusion
05:03:50 <atehwa> or so it seemed to me
05:03:55 <elliott> When was that?
05:04:04 <elliott> (Anyway, I was asking who you bribed to get new non-spam posts today.)
05:04:12 <atehwa> so I just offered to take the responsibility, and got Chris' support.
05:04:18 <atehwa> aaa
05:04:19 <atehwa> :)
05:04:26 <elliott> Did cpressey used to run the list?
05:04:33 <atehwa> I could bribe myself, right?
05:04:55 <atehwa> yes, it was originally esoteric@catseye.mb.ca or something like that
05:05:06 <atehwa> it's the first esolang community that I know of
05:05:11 <atehwa> quite productive, too.
05:05:23 <elliott> I take it all the archives are lost to history
05:05:25 <elliott> heh, fsvo productive
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05:18:58 <atehwa> @esoteric archives do exist
05:18:58 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
05:19:12 <atehwa> lessee
05:19:50 <atehwa> http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/
05:20:36 <atehwa> but... I don't know about catseye
05:21:47 <atehwa> 'fcourse, list participants probably have their own archives of the discussions.
05:23:29 <elliott> right, the wiki links to the sange.fi archives
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05:52:20 <itidus21> I guess the only trouble with the cookie law is that any law which the public actually likes can't be a good thing.
05:53:07 <quintopia> what is the cookie law
05:53:56 <itidus21> <ais523> it's a law, it's not a joke <ais523> or a fad
05:54:22 <itidus21> <elliott> I thought it was appropriate timing <elliott> although I suspect the law /will/ end up being a fad
05:57:07 <quintopia> so they have to warn users about cookies in britain?
05:57:18 <quintopia> and let them opt-out?
05:57:40 <elliott> yes
05:57:52 <elliott> see http://www.ja.net/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/ for examples
05:58:02 <elliott> maybe you need to go on a news page on the latter to see it
05:58:04 <elliott> oh also
05:58:07 <elliott> htt://bt.com/
05:58:12 <elliott> http://bt.com/
05:58:40 <elliott> wow click change settings that's a lot of cookie settings
05:59:12 <quintopia> well, i suppose i'm not opposed to the idea
05:59:53 <quintopia> i like that android apps report which actions they will be permitted to take
06:07:09 <shachaf> I like how those permissions are so coarse-grained as to be basically useless.
06:07:29 <shachaf> Why is the only level of "do anything with the SD card" "do everything with the SD card"?
06:10:36 <itidus21> I like how windows shifts responsibility onto a non-existant system administrator when something goes wrong.
06:12:02 <itidus21> it never actually checks your priviliges before saying that
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06:14:07 <quintopia> shachaf: the permission is "write to external storage" i think reading is automatically permitted
06:14:21 <quintopia> but the file system still has standard permission sets
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07:54:00 <fizzie> Did we have anyone from University of Helsinki?
07:54:15 <fizzie> Because I'm at your Exactum now.
07:55:03 <fizzie> Though I guess my actual point is already a bit moot.
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07:59:32 <Taneb> Hello!
08:04:25 <fizzie> O(Hell), the worst time complexity.
08:06:13 <fizzie> There's a guy here talking about a new kind of statistics.
08:06:34 <fizzie> It's a "summary"-ish thing of his new book, http://www.amazon.com/Optimal-Estimation-Parameters-Jorma-Rissanen/dp/1107004748
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08:36:55 <Patashu> Fizzle: So, what is it about
08:36:59 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, does it involve getting loads of grunts to look through tables of data for behaviour that loosely resembles the real world and then telling everyone what a genius you are?
08:43:10 <elliott> Patashu: "fizzle"
08:43:13 <elliott> This ain't the 90s.
08:43:34 <Patashu> oh
08:43:35 <Patashu> foshizzle
08:49:07 <fizzie> Patashu: The Amazon page has a description.
08:49:23 <fizzie> But this man is the most arrogant person alive, I think.
08:50:03 <Patashu> it does have a description
08:50:08 <Patashu> but I don't feel enlightened after reading it
08:50:09 <elliott> Optimal Estimation of Parameters is a ridiculously profound book title.
08:50:13 <Patashu> what does it do, besides estimate things well
08:50:19 <elliott> It's hard to get more all-encompassing than that.
08:50:24 <elliott> Optimal Method of Doing THings
08:50:25 <elliott> *Things
08:50:43 <fizzie> elliott: He says everyone else is pretty much totally wrong about everything.
08:50:56 <fizzie> elliott: Both frequentists and Bayesians.
08:51:06 <elliott> I think I like this guy.
08:51:17 <elliott> That praise does seem rather high.
08:52:14 <Patashu> fizzie: are there any examples of his work I can read without paying for them?
08:52:58 <elliott> fizzie: So what's his version?
08:55:57 <fizzie> elliott: It is not terribly easy to understand, honestly. But he says it's a generalization of ML where the "model selection" is part of it, but also a generalization of the MDL principle.
08:57:28 <elliott> fizzie: What's ML here?
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08:57:54 <Ngevd> I'm...
08:58:00 <Ngevd> I'm not sure what just happened
08:58:24 <elliott> death
08:58:26 <fizzie> Patashu: I'm sure his "famous" papers are somewhere; he's sort of counted as the inventor of arithmetic coding, and the MDL principle, both well-known things.
08:58:36 <fizzie> Maximum-likelihood estimation.
08:58:46 <elliott> Arithmetic coding? So he's not a quack, then.
08:59:38 <fizzie> Patashu: http://www.mdl-research.org/jorma.rissanen/ -- there's a list of selected papers there.
09:00:08 <elliott> http://www.mdl-research.org/jorma.rissanen/rissanen.jpg
09:00:16 <elliott> this is a guy who knows a lot about optimal estimation of parameters
09:00:54 <fizzie> He is very certain about this thing.
09:01:36 <Ngevd> He has estimated the parameters optimally
09:01:36 <elliott> So how wrong is he?
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09:01:43 <fizzie> "You have been too much influenced by this traditional nonsense" -- a verbatim quote about his answer to some comments afterward.
09:03:41 <fizzie> Anyway, I don't suppose he's "wrong" if you strictly accept his definitions and just look at the mathematical consequences.
09:03:52 <fizzie> But of course I haven't read the book.
09:04:07 <fizzie> Anyway, free-lunch time. ->
09:04:22 <Patashu> To summarize, the traditional dogmatic approach to statistical model building, in which prob-
09:04:23 <Patashu> abilities are viewed as inherent properties of `random' data and restricted to them, is resting on
09:04:23 <Patashu> shaky logical foundations.
09:06:02 <Patashu> this is dense
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09:20:16 <Phantom_Hoover> <fizzie> But this man is the most arrogant person alive, I think.
09:20:26 <Phantom_Hoover> What about the person to whom I subtly alluded?
09:22:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, centipedes walk in a really cool way.
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09:39:16 <fizzie> http://assets.cambridge.org/97811070/04740/frontmatter/9781107004740_frontmatter.pdf page 7 (last page) is perhaps a better description, in the sense that it mentions how everyone is wrong.
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09:44:47 <elliott> :D
09:49:06 <fizzie> It's funny because now we're going to have presentations for four papers, and I'd wager a guess there's going to be Bayesian principles involved. (He was especially critical of their "worthless nonsense".)
09:49:24 <elliott> So he likes the frequentists more?
09:50:47 <fizzie> I don't think so. He just mentioned them less. But he did say their hypothesis testing is pure nonsense, while he does it right using his theory of perfectly perfect perfectstimators.
09:51:24 <fizzie> They are optimal "in every relevant sense" (direct quote from slides).
09:52:01 <Patashu> there are irrelevant senses to be optimal in?
09:52:18 <elliott> Patashu: What combo should I play?
09:52:40 <fizzie> Sure, like "optimal in a practical application" or whatever.
09:53:15 <Patashu> elliott: crawl, crawl light or 4.1
09:53:26 <elliott> stone soup
09:53:30 <Patashu> powergamer or playabl
09:53:34 <elliott> (i think the light people get offended if you call it not-crawl)
09:53:39 <elliott> Patashu: i want to get >xl 15
09:53:46 <elliott> i have low tolerance for the standard hunger mechanics
09:53:52 <elliott> (i.e. not being able to eat corpses most of the time and the like)
09:54:05 <Patashu> you could try troll fighter-something
09:54:08 <Patashu> trolls have gourmand
09:54:18 <Patashu> and really good uc
09:54:18 <elliott> also not really looking to be a squishy fully-spells mage
09:54:26 <elliott> (melee w/ buff spells are fine)
09:54:36 <elliott> Patashu: trolls are a bit op aren't they
09:54:40 <Patashu> not really
09:54:40 <elliott> (i don't play anything sufficiently popular)
09:54:42 <Patashu> they have shit defenses and apts
09:54:49 <Patashu> they can throw rocks though
09:54:53 <elliott> i don't like ranged
09:55:06 <Patashu> well you'll be hitting things with your claws mostly
09:55:12 <Patashu> since you can't get rocks until cyclopses start appearing
09:55:35 <elliott> (my current combo of the moment is ghak, previously ghmo*makhleb)
09:55:41 <elliott> (before that dsak i think)
09:55:48 <elliott> (ds sucks because hunger)
09:55:49 <Patashu> ghak is good
09:55:53 <elliott> it's oldwon :P
09:56:03 <Patashu> really?
09:56:04 <elliott> yeah
09:56:07 <Patashu> well, shrug. gh is good, ak is good
09:56:10 <elliott> which is strange because it's pretty good
09:56:12 <Patashu> so ghak must be good
09:56:19 <elliott> Patashu: heavy armour or light armour melee fighter w/ buffs
09:56:33 <Patashu> well
09:56:36 <Patashu> that depends on what books you find, doesn't it
09:56:39 <Patashu> since ak
09:56:46 <elliott> yes
09:56:48 <elliott> but i hate deciding late :(
09:56:52 <elliott> i like to wear my heavy armour early
09:56:55 <Patashu> assume heavy armour
09:57:04 <elliott> and then switch if i find nice books? ok
09:57:06 <Patashu> yeah
09:57:13 <Patashu> since p(heavy armour) > p(good book)
09:57:22 <elliott> science
09:57:40 <elliott> is that valid in the optimal estimation of parameters method
09:57:49 <Patashu> (for example, as an ogre/troll p(heavy armour) < p(good book) )
09:57:49 <Patashu> yes
09:58:02 <elliott> oh right trolls have stupid armour
09:58:15 <elliott> what happened here
09:58:19 <Patashu> ?
09:58:22 <elliott> see my game
09:58:50 <Patashu> that's a vault
09:58:56 <elliott> i know
09:58:59 <Patashu> I think it's meant to be a butcher stall
09:58:59 <elliott> it's just weird :P
09:59:16 <elliott> mmm
09:59:18 <elliott> very profitable for ghoule
09:59:36 <elliott> ugh
09:59:40 <elliott> i miss area saccing
10:00:03 <Patashu> I think 'pray' and 'butcher' should move towards the thing you most recently killed
10:00:09 <Patashu> popping it off like a stack as you keep pressing it
10:00:11 <Patashu> (fr)
10:00:14 <elliott> light's is better
10:00:16 <elliott> it just sacs every corpse in los
10:00:22 <Patashu> ok but does light have area butchering
10:00:23 <Patashu> (oh wait no food)
10:00:26 <elliott> yes
10:00:29 <elliott> you don't need to butcher :p
10:00:30 <elliott> although you can
10:00:32 <elliott> it's just pointless
10:00:34 <Patashu> what about for sublimation of blood
10:00:37 <Patashu> or simulacrum
10:00:38 <elliott> yeah
10:00:40 <elliott> you can do it then
10:00:42 <elliott> "such fun"
10:00:45 <elliott> Patashu: oh assuming heavy armour is a pain
10:00:48 <elliott> 'cuz i need to raise stats
10:00:55 <Patashu> you only need 18 str for plate
10:02:53 <elliott> fuck
10:03:07 <elliott> help
10:03:10 <Patashu> you are not vbery good at this 'running away from things' game mechanic
10:03:19 <Phantom_Hoover> <Patashu> what about for sublimation of blood
10:03:25 <Phantom_Hoover> This is DF right
10:03:30 <Patashu> crawl
10:03:41 <elliott> meh
10:03:43 <elliott> try again
10:03:46 <Patashu> rip elliott killed by: unoptimal play
10:03:47 <Phantom_Hoover> But DF is the only thing that would simulate the sublimation point of blood
10:03:49 <Phantom_Hoover> wait
10:03:52 <Patashu> haha
10:03:55 <elliott> Patashu: it's because i tabbed it before i realised it was an iguana
10:03:55 <Phantom_Hoover> how can blood even sublime
10:04:01 <Phantom_Hoover> unless your blood is a gas
10:04:01 <Patashu> it's magic
10:04:21 <elliott> nice
10:04:22 <elliott> +2 robe
10:04:31 <Patashu> you know what would be funny
10:04:38 <Patashu> if randomly you'd start in the abyss instead of in the dungeon, like an ak
10:04:44 <Patashu> except instead of dying at 0 hp you'd wake up in the dungeon
10:04:49 <Patashu> and it'd say 'Whew, what an awful dream!'
10:04:54 <Patashu> what
10:04:55 <Patashu> nice worm
10:04:56 <elliott> wormdeath
10:04:59 <elliott> that worm was op
10:05:01 <elliott> let's try that again
10:05:02 <Patashu> wooorms
10:05:15 <elliott> constr op
10:05:24 <elliott> blink as first scroll nice
10:09:25 <elliott> woow what a good strategy
10:09:50 <elliott> lets try again
10:09:54 <elliott> with less stupid chokepoint strategy
10:10:19 <elliott> rest in peace me
10:10:37 <elliott> the problem is that crawl is boring
10:10:38 <elliott> so i play fast
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10:14:45 <elliott> wow
10:14:46 <elliott> christ
10:14:57 -!- PatashuXantheres has changed nick to Patashu.
10:15:09 <Patashu> it seems weird that everything is killing you
10:15:12 <Patashu> I never have any problems playing crawl
10:15:18 <elliott> well
10:15:23 <elliott> i don't die this easily with ghak usually
10:15:25 <elliott> i'm not sure what's op
10:15:26 <elliott> up
10:16:14 <elliott> haha shit
10:17:31 <Sgeo> Is cygwin good for using simple utilities like grep, or are there better alternatives
10:17:41 <elliott> it is fine for grep
10:17:43 <Patashu> cygwin works, it also comes in dll format
10:17:59 <Sgeo> Although I already have cygwin installed and I'm lazy, so...
10:18:01 <Sgeo> Oh, ok
10:18:10 <Patashu> if you install cygwin and put it on your path (or just put the bash utilities you want in a folder with the cygwin dll, and put that on your path) you can use them from your windows shell
10:18:18 <Patashu> I can type grep blah blah blah and it just works and I'm on windows 7
10:18:21 <Patashu> feels great
10:19:12 <elliott> jessicastabbing
10:19:14 <elliott> jessica's tabbing
10:19:53 <elliott> nice ijyb
10:20:24 <elliott> uh oh
10:20:26 <elliott> purgy is bad news right
10:20:35 <Patashu> <Gretell> Purgy (T) | Spd: 10 | Int: normal (doors) | HD: 5 | HP: 35 | AC/EV: 1/12 | Dam: 9, 4, 4 | Fl: regen | Res: magic(13) | Chunks: contam | XP: 134.
10:20:42 <Patashu> if your ac sucks I guess
10:20:45 <Patashu> you don't have to fight him
10:20:46 <Patashu> so don't
10:20:48 <elliott> oh that's fine
10:20:55 <elliott> yikes
10:21:14 <Patashu> LOL
10:21:14 <elliott> LOL
10:21:16 <Patashu> where the fuck did he come from
10:23:41 <elliott> ok so
10:23:43 <elliott> let's try that again
10:24:01 <elliott> nice anaconda skeleton
10:24:06 <elliott> wow lots of zombies
10:25:04 <elliott> yesss
10:25:04 <elliott> pizza
10:25:35 <elliott> Patashu: anyway you probably just play really boringly
10:25:45 <elliott> i couldn't stand to play hyper-carefully in earlygame so i go by instinct
10:25:52 <elliott> earlygame includes up to like lair:3
10:26:01 <Patashu> if you play carefully in the early game
10:26:03 <Patashu> you only have to play it once
10:26:04 <Patashu> tops
10:26:12 <elliott> that's total lies
10:26:17 <elliott> the earlygame is deadly
10:26:25 <elliott> it's the one place there are unavoidable daeths
10:26:26 <elliott> deaths
10:26:43 <Patashu> unavoidable death, noun: a death caused by otab
10:27:56 <elliott> fuck worms
10:30:53 <Sgeo> elliott, I thought you liked W:A
10:33:18 <fizzie> Wolfram:Alpha.
10:34:48 <Patashu> elliott: maybe you should not tab uniques and instead run from them
10:34:52 <elliott> `let's try that again'
10:34:56 <elliott> Patashu: i opened the door to them
10:34:59 <elliott> and
10:35:00 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: let's: not found
10:35:02 <elliott> there was no upstairs
10:35:05 <Patashu> you could have still walked to- really?
10:35:06 <Patashu> ok then
10:35:09 <elliott> the real lesson is: check whether something's an escape hatch before going down it
10:35:19 <Patashu> yes
10:35:33 <elliott> lmao
10:35:55 <elliott> wow
10:35:58 <elliott> look at this abyss section
10:36:09 <Sgeo> Why am I installing the new version of Racket
10:36:23 <Patashu> the vertical lines?
10:36:26 <Patashu> abyss does that sometimes
10:36:32 <Patashu> I'm not sure if it's a vault or a consequence of the algorithm used
10:36:32 <elliott> no
10:36:34 <elliott> the lava-surround
10:37:28 <elliott> yay
10:38:05 <elliott> imo worms should just always be fleeing
10:38:07 <elliott> much easier to deal with
10:41:04 <Sgeo> "Good integration with the Racket implementation: primitive values have corresponding Swindle classes, and struct types can also be used as type specializers."
10:41:06 <Sgeo> o.O
10:41:21 <Sgeo> Is Swindle more.... integrated with Racket than CLOS is with CL?
10:41:37 <elliott> clos is integrated fully into cl
10:41:54 <Sgeo> Well, not integrated as in part ofm, but integrated as in fewer rough edges due to being tacked on later on
10:42:05 <nortti> cl=common lisp?
10:42:14 <Sgeo> yes
10:42:21 <Patashu> elliott: you are worse at early game than kacy
10:42:40 <elliott> how dare you
10:42:48 <nortti> is there some advantage in using common lisp instead of scheme
10:42:50 <elliott> Sgeo: do you have any knowledge of clos at all
10:43:00 <Sgeo> Some
10:43:20 <elliott> i see
10:43:23 <Sgeo> Hmm, I may have misremembered the rough bits...
10:45:30 <Sgeo> structs aren't CLOS classes iirc, but that wasn't ... such a big issue?
10:45:41 <Sgeo> Oh, some functions aren't methods
10:52:24 <elliott> Patashu: anyway soon i will be above xl 15
10:52:27 <elliott> i promise you
11:00:05 <elliott> Patashu: should i try again
11:00:34 <Patashu> sure
11:00:44 <elliott> it occurs
11:00:45 <Patashu> try the secret technique known as running from things when they enter los
11:00:52 <elliott> i try that it's difficult
11:01:00 <elliott> read-iding scrolls in the abyss
11:01:18 <elliott> The hellwing gestures at you.
11:01:18 <elliott> You feel strangely unstable.
11:01:19 <elliott> thanks
11:01:22 <elliott> woot
11:01:24 <elliott> still have tele post-escape
11:01:42 <elliott> c - a cursed ring of hunger (left claw)
11:01:47 <elliott> ^Qyes<enter>
11:03:09 <elliott> nO
11:03:12 <elliott> i did not just die to rat
11:06:59 <fizzie> Ooh, mind reading again.
11:07:05 <fizzie> With a MEG.
11:07:42 <fizzie> These guys won a competition about it, apparently.
11:08:28 -!- derdon has joined.
11:10:19 <fizzie> Sadly, it's just about feature selection and not the actual mind-reading.
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11:13:52 <elliott> Patashu: Should I play again? GhAK is hard. :(
11:13:59 <Patashu> is it?
11:14:00 <Patashu> why's it hard
11:14:56 <elliott> idk
11:14:57 <elliott> try it
11:15:00 <elliott> maybe you'll win
11:15:03 <Patashu> try ghfi, ghmo or ghgl
11:15:08 <elliott> done a bunch of ghmo
11:15:10 <Patashu> ok, I'll play it locally and get to lair
11:15:10 <Patashu> brb
11:15:18 <elliott> locally? :(
11:15:20 <elliott> then i can't funspectate
11:15:25 <elliott> (please don't fucking win until i do though)
11:15:28 <elliott> (it's my pet oldwon)
11:15:44 <Patashu> I have a game started on cao and webtiles
11:15:45 <Patashu> so
11:15:50 <elliott> Patashu: cdo man
11:15:57 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
11:15:58 <elliott> or another game version on cao :p
11:15:58 <elliott> or
11:16:07 <elliott> squarelos on cao if you can handle it!!!!
11:16:16 <elliott> (n.b. monqy conduct required)
11:16:51 <elliott> or make hyperpatashu like cool kids :P
11:17:43 <Patashu> wow
11:17:45 <Patashu> three scrolls of enchant armour on D:1 so far
11:17:51 <elliott> nooo
11:17:52 <elliott> i wanna see
11:18:03 <Patashu> now I uh
11:18:04 <Patashu> need something worth enchanting
11:18:12 <elliott> try suiciding so you can play online :P
11:18:19 <elliott> anyway you're clearly just wizmode cheating
11:18:27 <elliott> (also how can I ~learn~!!!)
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11:19:35 <Patashu> ok, I'll make a hyperpatashu
11:19:35 <Patashu> onesec
11:20:16 <elliott> btw you'll be breaking the laws of hypers
11:20:16 <elliott> but
11:20:18 <elliott> "who cares"
11:20:31 <Patashu> what's the law
11:20:33 <elliott> Patashu: call it patashoe
11:20:39 <elliott> the hyper accounts are when people play the first random character they get
11:20:45 <elliott> patashoe <- this is genius
11:20:52 <Patashu> hmm
11:20:55 <elliott> or pataphysics :P
11:21:01 <elliott> so many good naming opportunities!!!
11:22:51 <Patashu> ok
11:22:52 <Patashu> great, is this the awful entrance vault
11:22:54 <Patashu> I see a jelly and a worm
11:23:03 <elliott> turn on traps & doors
11:23:13 <elliott> what a great entry vault
11:23:14 <elliott> exclusion time
11:25:02 <elliott> Patashu: protip sac corpses
11:25:08 <elliott> then die to starvation
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11:28:28 <elliott> come on
11:28:31 <elliott> you rigged that +4 roll
11:29:15 -!- Taneb has joined.
11:29:24 <Taneb> Hello
11:30:45 <elliott> hi
11:58:26 <elliott> Patashu: i told you earlygame sucks
11:58:32 <Patashu> it's ok
11:58:37 <elliott> it's not it's awful
11:58:39 <Patashu> when I make a mistake I feel like it's my fault
11:58:43 <elliott> crawl is really fun when it's all about getting the runes
11:58:47 <elliott> they're just stupi mistakes though ugh
11:58:48 <Patashu> I didn't have to fight those
11:58:50 <elliott> *stupid
11:59:02 <elliott> seriously if crawl just dumped you with a cleared lair at the very start
11:59:07 <elliott> and all the loot and stats it entails
11:59:09 <elliott> it'd be much more fun
12:00:52 <fizzie> Okay, the current presenter has written a book titled "Consciousness and Robot Sentience".
12:01:16 <fizzie> He's also from a philosophy department of someplace or another.
12:01:28 <fizzie> And after the talk there's a "robot demo".
12:01:46 <fizzie> I wonder if it's sentient.
12:01:48 <Sgeo_> If I try to learn Racket at the same time I try to go through SICP, will I become confused?
12:01:58 <Sgeo_> I mean, very similar languages with some significant differences, etc...
12:02:58 <elliott> "very similar"
12:05:00 <fizzie> "Consciousness is the presence of phenomenal internal appearance, the "subjective experience" of perception-related neural activity."
12:05:39 <fizzie> Consciousness is also not computational, apparently.
12:06:00 <elliott> is this the statistics guy
12:06:19 <fizzie> No.
12:06:35 <Sgeo_> elliott, in Worlds, the Sadness and Glee buildings are bigger on the inside
12:06:49 <elliott> hi
12:07:41 <fizzie> His robot is not based on any microprocessors or programs.
12:07:55 <Patashu> what class are you taking
12:08:02 <fizzie> It's based on neural networks, but they're not "your neural networks".
12:08:09 <Patashu> ic
12:09:07 <fizzie> It's called XCR-1, it's the experimental cognitive robot.
12:09:16 <fizzie> And I'm not taking any classes.
12:09:26 <fizzie> It's this sort of a day.
12:09:48 <fizzie> The robot has "inner speech".
12:10:42 <elliott> nice
12:11:14 <fizzie> I'm sort of reminded of Mentifex, except he's not quite as... as all that.
12:11:48 <elliott> is this person actually in your university
12:12:01 <fizzie> Not my, but a university.
12:12:25 <fizzie> It can experience pain, and has mental imagery corresponding to words.
12:12:47 <fizzie> It's this guy: http://www.conscious-robots.com/en/researchers-and-associations/interviews-and-lectures/pentti-haikonen-talks-about-cy.html
12:13:38 <fizzie> Oh, the video is gone. But there's something about XCR-1 there.
12:13:49 <fizzie> He also has leaflets just outside the door.
12:14:07 <fizzie> Now he has the XCR-1 on the table.
12:15:30 <fizzie> It keeps repeating the word "hurt", I think.
12:15:35 <fizzie> And hmm'ing.
12:15:46 <fizzie> It found a small object.
12:16:08 <fizzie> Or maybe it's "search".
12:16:31 <fizzie> There's also blinking lights of different colors.
12:17:00 <fizzie> He's trying to hold a microphone next to it so that we can hear.
12:17:23 <fizzie> This all is... kinda weird.
12:17:52 <fizzie> He's shouting "green" at the robot.
12:18:11 <fizzie> The robot says "bad".
12:18:21 <fizzie> It does not want green now.
12:18:36 <fizzie> That's the trouble with conscious robots.
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12:18:51 <fizzie> Green, bad.
12:19:34 <fizzie> He said "green" and hit the robot, and the robot associated green with badness. And now it does not like green objects.
12:20:29 <fizzie> This is a strange event. Some of it like any CS conference, some... not.
12:21:07 <fizzie> I guess I should go to the pattern recognition society meeting now, that's pretty much why I had to actually come here today.
12:26:58 <elliott> Patashu: should have id'd O...
12:27:08 <Patashu> it's amnesia
12:27:11 <Patashu> oh
12:27:12 <elliott> ah
12:27:12 <Patashu> or curse weapon
12:27:14 <Patashu> either way
12:27:16 <elliott> heh
12:28:19 <elliott> yakes
12:28:48 <elliott> Patashu: disto spear
12:29:19 <elliott> Patashu: now
12:30:25 <elliott> Patashu: you just passde alir
12:32:14 <elliott> its righ tthere
12:32:14 <elliott> god
12:32:18 <elliott> oh
12:32:55 <elliott> nice
12:32:58 <elliott> rip Patashu
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12:34:38 <elliott> uugh why isn't Patashu dying
12:48:22 -!- foocraft_ has quit (Quit: So long, and thanks for all the fish!).
12:53:18 <elliott> fizzie: You *may* *die* to a *fungot*.
12:53:19 <fungot> elliott: and if someone says " freaky" for all i/ o commands, an empty ()
13:02:15 <david_werecat> !bfjoust awful_25 ->+>->(-)*8>-->(+)*8>++>(-)*5>(+)*3(+)*3<(-)*5<++<(+)*8<--<(-)*8<-<+(+)*31>(-)*31>>>>>>>([+[+[+[+[+[------[-[-[-[-[(-)*27[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]]]>)*21
13:02:18 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_awful_25: 51.9
13:04:48 <Sgeo_> Racket structs remind me of CL structs :/
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14:36:36 <DHeadshot> Here's a good question for discussion: Is Minecraft's redstone/redwire system Turing-Complete?
14:37:40 <Patashu> yes
14:37:45 <nortti> yes. I got lefftif mwm to work. Can there be better window manager than mwm (not counting the tiling ones)
14:38:08 <Patashu> you can make a nand in it, and you can make memory elements in it. the only constraint is how big minecraft maps can get (which is currently limited by floating point representations)
14:38:14 <elliott> DHeadshot: no
14:38:23 <elliott> Patashu: there is no way to get infinite memory
14:38:30 <elliott> infinite initial arrangements do not really ocunt
14:38:35 <elliott> well it's similar to a CA really
14:38:45 <Patashu> aren't there things you can power with redstone
14:38:48 <Patashu> that re-arrange the environment?
14:39:56 <Patashu> it's possible I'm thinking of one of the redstone mods that add a lot more things to do with redstone
14:40:00 <Gregor> You can build a stack with pistons. Really, it's not at all dissimilar to computers. Its theoretically Turing complete, just limited by its "physical" nature.
14:40:05 <elliott> i think you are thinking of a mod yeah
14:40:08 <elliott> Gregor: AKA an FSM.
14:40:30 <elliott> Patashu: Are you going to win that GhAK? : (
14:40:34 <Patashu> elliott: yes
14:40:51 <elliott> Patashu: What did I do to deserve this?!
14:40:59 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, but that's as disingenuous as saying that a desktop computer is an FSM. It's true, but wildly misleading.
14:41:09 <elliott> Gregor: Not really :P
14:41:22 <elliott> Call it a BSM if you want.
14:41:34 <Gregor> I am quite happy to do that.
14:41:42 <Patashu> elliott: being a bad player who doesn't run from anything and doesn't bother to apply tactics will do that to you :P
14:42:08 <elliott> :(
14:42:11 <elliott> nobody even likes ghak!
14:42:17 <Patashu> I like it
14:42:20 <Patashu> I get to banish jellies
14:42:26 <Patashu> and not care about food except when I want to heal
14:42:31 <Patashu> seems p. winning to me
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14:43:12 <DHeadshot> If they get infinite maps properly sorted, would it be then?
14:43:29 <Patashu> it would still be limited by the number of particles in the universe
14:43:30 <Taneb> Hello!
14:43:34 <Taneb> Important advice!
14:43:47 <Taneb> Make sure you get the right date for your exams!
14:43:59 <Patashu> Doubly important: If you get it wrong, get it wrong by being early
14:44:16 <DHeadshot> I did the latter last year...
14:44:58 <DHeadshot> But, Ouch, you missed your exams Taneb?
14:45:06 <Taneb> I had a phone call this afternoon
14:45:10 <Taneb> I was late but didn't miss it
14:56:30 -!- MDude has joined.
14:57:09 <Taneb> Wow, I just got an email addressed to "Mr. Taneb"
14:57:44 <Taneb> About someone implementing Luigi in Python
15:00:12 <Taneb> What's...
15:00:20 <Taneb> How do I reply to this?
15:00:46 <Taneb> elliott: Phantom_Hoover: advice please
15:00:51 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
15:00:52 <MDude> "That's Mamma Luigi to you, Mario!"
15:01:02 <elliott> Taneb: say it's cool and ask them if they might like to put it on the wiki
15:01:24 -!- george97 has joined.
15:01:34 <Taneb> elliott: good idea
15:01:43 <elliott> `welcome george97
15:01:47 <HackEgo> george97: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:01:55 <elliott> Taneb: oh, might be worth submitting to the file archive too
15:02:01 <elliott> pastebin links on the wiki make me twitchy
15:02:22 <Taneb> It's... an email attachment.
15:02:27 <Taneb> Probably even twitchier
15:02:59 <elliott> Well, they'll be the ones putting it on the wiki.
15:03:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, also tell them not to make a bf derivative
15:04:29 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, will do
15:04:53 <Taneb> Does the name "Carlos Luna Mota" mean anything?
15:07:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, he's my cousin!
15:09:50 <Taneb> Can you tell him not to make a brainfuck derivative then?
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15:19:42 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
15:19:50 <Phantom_Hoover> He is from an estranged branch of the family.
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15:46:51 <Taneb> Gello
15:47:06 <Taneb> *Hello
15:53:25 <elliott> gello
16:04:08 <coppro> ugh, fixed points hurt my brains
16:05:22 <coppro> elliot suppose I have a function f and a value v :: (Eq a) => a. Is there a function to repeatedly iterate f v, f $ f v, etc. until I get a fixed point?
16:06:07 <coppro> or more generally, to iterate until the result meets a predicate?
16:06:33 <elliott> i do not believe you have a value v :: (Eq a) => a
16:06:35 <coppro> I suppose there is takeWhile pred . iterate fv
16:06:41 <elliott> I presume you mean v :: a, for some a that is Eq?
16:06:44 <coppro> elliott: yes
16:06:48 <elliott> (ok I do believe you have such a value, undefined)
16:06:59 <elliott> coppro: I don't believe takeWhile pred would work.
16:07:04 <elliott> :t until
16:07:05 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> Bool) -> (a -> a) -> a -> a
16:07:09 <elliott> this may hlep you
16:07:11 <elliott> help
16:07:12 <elliott> you
16:07:24 <elliott> it's easy to code:
16:07:39 <elliott> fixed (x:x':xs) | x == x' = x | otherwise = fixed xs
16:07:42 <elliott> then fixed . iterate f
16:07:50 <elliott> but I think there is some simple composition for it
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16:08:52 <coppro> until is perfect for my usage
16:08:59 <coppro> (turns out I don't actually need equality, derp)
16:10:05 <elliott> yay
16:10:08 <elliott> :)
16:10:17 <elliott> until is one of those lesser-known prelude functions that everyone always forgets about
16:10:20 <elliott> so i make a point to remember it
16:11:03 <elliott> unfortunately Int -> (a -> a) -> a -> a is still missing.
16:11:09 <elliott> (or (Integral n) => n -> ..., whatever)
16:13:07 <Sgeo_> "In the following pages, ill try to explain what these features actually are (im just swanking here)"
16:13:25 <Sgeo_> (In Geiser's manual)
16:25:47 <Taneb> elliott: what would you call that?
16:26:01 <elliott> something like iterate or church or whatever
16:26:06 <elliott> (I know iterate is taken)
16:26:28 <elliott> whoops
16:26:32 <elliott> we're ten days late for a new featured language!
16:26:33 <Taneb> I've heard it be called church and cascade
16:26:57 <elliott> ais523: hey
16:26:59 <elliott> which language should i feature
16:27:16 <Taneb> ais523 is biased, he suggested one, and he wrote one of the nominees
16:27:26 <ais523> what's the nominee list?
16:27:32 <Taneb> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages/Candidates
16:27:51 <ais523> I meant in IRC
16:28:11 <ais523> too busy opening far too many pages at once in Firefox
16:28:28 <Taneb> Deadfish, Eodermdrome, Kipple, Sortle, Unlambda
16:29:14 <ais523> go Kipple, I guess
16:29:18 <elliott> ais523: but the article quality is a main factor!
16:29:20 <ais523> it's been around for a while, and it needs some love
16:29:28 <elliott> Kipple's article is OK, but it's a bit thin on the ground
16:29:45 <elliott> also, there's not enough intro to make into a blurb
16:30:19 <Taneb> elliott, that narrows it down to deadfish and Sortle
16:30:58 <elliott> Eodermdrome has enough info to turn into a lead in the semantics section
16:31:03 <olsner> rumors, rumors... http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2012/05/face_opera.html
16:45:02 <coppro> elliott: #haskell is stupid
16:45:08 <elliott> coppro: congratulations
16:45:12 <elliott> it took kmc years to decide that
16:45:27 <elliott> coppro: the best way to get an answer to a haskell question is to ask it on stack overflow and then link it to me
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16:48:48 <elliott> coppro: (this is not a joke)
16:49:43 <coppro> this is better than asking you here?
16:50:07 <elliott> the answer will have punctuation and be motivated by the desire to gobble up ever more rep (i stopped caring about rep months ago)
16:50:16 <elliott> also it will probably include more documentation links
16:50:21 <elliott> admittedly asking on irc is easier for me
16:50:23 <coppro> (also seriously. I asked them how to compose a two-argument function. The correct answer, as I googled in 3 minutes afterward, is Data.Composition. The incorrect answer was to run it through djinn and pl)
16:50:51 <elliott> data.composition?
16:50:55 <elliott> just eta-expand it
16:51:01 <elliott> or use (.:) = (.) . (.) if you really want
16:51:06 <elliott> but i don't like that operator
16:51:13 <elliott> (fmap . fmap) also works and is less awful
16:51:23 <elliott> but yeah it's ok to use a point for that and really what you should do
16:51:35 <coppro> I'm not using a point here
16:51:47 <elliott> "how can I do X with stupid requirement Y"
16:51:54 <coppro> it looks fine
16:51:58 <coppro> and my composition is gigantic
16:51:59 <elliott> Data.Composition sounds suspiciously like a silly third-party library for an ad-hoc number of arguments that will probably be more confusing to read in the end
16:52:03 <elliott> at least the point offers a guide
16:52:04 <elliott> coppro: hpaste it
16:52:08 <coppro> my code?
16:52:14 <elliott> ye
16:52:14 <elliott> s
16:52:21 <coppro> it's on a different device
16:52:33 <elliott> oh composition is that ... yeah, I would not advise use of that package
16:53:12 <coppro> it's better than the suggestion #haskell came up with of sticking the boobies operator in my code
16:53:38 <elliott> (f .: g) x y = f (g x y) is the correct way to implement that operator
16:53:38 <elliott> or
16:53:42 <elliott> (f .: g) x = f . g x
16:53:44 <elliott> bur
16:53:45 <elliott> t
16:53:47 <elliott> that operator is an abomination
16:53:49 <coppro> why?
16:53:50 <elliott> and one day you will hate it too
16:53:54 <elliott> why what
16:54:00 <coppro> why is it an abomination?
16:54:21 <coppro> (\x -> foo . bar . baz (quuz . quuux) . zork x) seems terrible
16:54:48 <elliott> well because it's a special-case that actually has a more generic underlying pattern (fmap.fmap), (fmap.fmap.fmap) etc. and it's a bad symbol for it and it's just generally yeck especially when it's not clear how many arguments are being used so you have to mentally expand it
16:54:55 <elliott> coppro: something that big wants defining in a where clause anyway
16:55:10 <elliott> thing x = foo . bar . baz (quuz . quux) . zork x isn't bad at all
16:55:18 <elliott> your code though :
16:55:20 <elliott> :P
16:55:49 <elliott> coppro: anyway patch dgamelaunch for me
16:55:53 <elliott> to do something probably impossible
16:55:57 <elliott> ais523: can you tell me if something is impossible
16:56:36 <ais523> elliott: depends on what that thing is
16:57:13 <elliott> ais523: OK so you know how you can send mail while spectating a game in dgamelaunch?
16:57:35 <ais523> yes
16:57:48 <ais523> that's done using a patch to the games in question ("simplemail" for NetHack)
16:57:50 <elliott> ais523: you know how that's annoying because it blocks off the whole screen while you do it and takes seconds after hitting enter to get you back to the action
16:57:55 <elliott> with the delay and replay
16:57:56 <elliott> and yeah, I know
16:58:08 <elliott> I want to patch dgamelaunch so it instead just pops a dialogue on top of the game as it runs down at the bottom
16:58:15 <elliott> the drawing the dialogue over the game frames is easy enough
16:58:17 <ais523> possible but difficult
16:58:24 <elliott> what sounds impossible is restoring the game afterwards without replaying a bunch
16:58:29 <ais523> you'd need to parse the ttyrec
16:58:34 <elliott> ais523: err, while spectating?
16:58:40 <elliott> wouldn't it require a full VT emulation?
16:58:43 <elliott> because it'll be trying to modify the dialogue
16:58:44 <ais523> yes, it would
16:58:47 <elliott> except it really wants to be modifying the non-dialogue
16:58:49 <elliott> ais523: ugh
16:58:53 <elliott> kmc: maybe i can steal mosh's
16:58:58 <elliott> ais523: so, it'll be a very non-trivial patch then
16:59:02 <elliott> shame
16:59:04 <elliott> it's really really annoying
16:59:28 <elliott> i usually open another terminal just to send messages
17:00:23 <elliott> ais523: I suppose it'd be simple enough if you just had to use a one-higher terminal than who you're watching
17:00:26 <elliott> it could scribble over that line :)
17:00:35 <ais523> yes :)
17:01:00 <elliott> ais523: another alternative would be to just write the dialogue willy-nilly, then replay from before it was first shown
17:01:06 <elliott> but that'd just result in the super-fast-replay annoyance thing
17:01:12 <ais523> yep
17:01:32 <elliott> the solution is to not try and build a generic game launcher thing with mail
17:01:44 <elliott> but ha ha I'm not rewriting dgamelaunch for DCSS and convincing CAO/CDO to switch
17:09:32 <Taneb> My dog just quacked
17:26:28 <Gregor> The phantom's gonna teach me how to break the submarine!
17:27:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Well first you open the door.
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17:38:49 <Taneb> elliott, Snap, Yesod, or Happstack?
17:39:03 <elliott> django on rails
17:39:17 <elliott> idk snap is all snap. but yesod has the yesody stuff too
17:39:20 <elliott> and happstack is quite happstack
17:39:23 <elliott> really pick whichever
17:39:28 <elliott> yesod has a lot of template haskell generally
17:39:35 <elliott> happstack is very "toolkitty"/"library"-style
17:39:44 <elliott> snap has pluggable sub-application things
17:39:52 <elliott> but
17:39:53 <elliott> spoiler
17:39:55 <elliott> web development is pain
17:39:57 <elliott> don't do it
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17:47:33 <elliott> `welcome nvt
17:47:36 <HackEgo> nvt: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:50:38 <Taneb> I think I'll work on family-tree
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18:09:08 <Taneb> Hello!
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18:14:32 <nortti> #shell reboot
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18:15:35 <nortti> rebootting my computer trought irc is kinda awesome
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18:17:43 <Sgeo_> Somehow, my presence in Worlds is actually breaking stuff
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19:06:23 <elliott> `welcome fofo
19:06:26 <HackEgo> fofo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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19:23:34 <david_werecat> !bfjoust awful_25_huge -->+++>-->(-)*8>-->(+)*8>++>(-)*5>(+)*3(+)*3<(-)*5<++<(+)*8<--<(-)*8<-<+(+)*30>(-)*31>>>>>>>([+[+[+[+[+[------[-[-[-[-[(-)*30[+][-][+]]]]]]]]]]]]+>)*21
19:23:37 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_awful_25_huge: 56.6
19:24:58 <itidus21> It can experience pain -- this is difficult to say of course
19:25:45 <nortti_> !bfjout perkele [>>>>>>>>>[-.]<<<<<<<<<+++>+]
19:25:48 <ais523> david_werecat: wow, that's quite a god score
19:25:54 <ais523> !help bfjoust
19:25:55 <EgoBot> ​Sorry, I have no help for bfjoust!
19:25:58 <itidus21> like if magritte was to give a speech bubble on a robot which said "i am in pain"
19:25:59 <ais523> err, hmm
19:26:04 <ais523> *good score
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19:26:12 <nortti_> !bfjoust perkele [>>>>>>>>>[-.]<<<<<<<<<+++>+]
19:26:14 <EgoBot> ​Score for nortti__perkele: 13.6
19:26:19 <david_werecat> I've been working on the program for a while now.
19:26:25 <ais523> third on the leaderboard
19:27:00 <david_werecat> That's higher than I expected when I started it. Hence the name "awful"
19:27:02 -!- augur has joined.
19:27:15 <ais523> I note it's vulnerable to triplocking
19:27:27 <ais523> with all those ]s in a row
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19:27:39 <itidus21> i think that we can only ever be sure of our own sense of pain, and that we guess at all other times
19:27:44 <Taneb> Hello
19:27:48 <ais523> hi Taneb
19:27:57 <nortti_> !bfjoust perkele [>>>>>>>>>[-]<<<<<<<<<+++>+]
19:27:57 <david_werecat> Yes. Although, those help it beat the programs using small spikes.
19:28:00 <EgoBot> ​Score for nortti__perkele: 14.2
19:28:17 <ais523> what method does it use to beat slowpoke? just outrushing?
19:28:24 <Phantom__Hoover> Triplocking?
19:28:30 <david_werecat> I'm not sure, I'll check.
19:28:30 <ais523> my defense programs do better against it than my attack programs
19:28:48 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: waiting until a cell becomes 0 then putting it up to some higher value as fast as you can
19:29:05 <ais523> it defeats programs containing ]]] in their clear loop, together with some other formations (but ]]] is the most common)
19:30:23 <david_werecat> I can't say from the trace, but if slowpoke checks for zeroed cells than my program leaves a trail of ones; which could cause it to think I'm stuck when I'm not.
19:31:03 <Taneb> Man, I'm awful at BF Joust
19:31:56 <itidus21> i know this topic has come and gone, but i think about robots etc, when life directs itself towards the question of what is alive, how can i create life, etc etc.. i think it is a depressed life who thinks like that
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19:32:08 <ais523> david_werecat: IIRC it checks for ones too
19:32:48 <itidus21> and implies a dissatisfaction with the good things like campfires, flints of stone, and getting about the jungle in leather hides
19:32:51 <david_werecat> I'm not sure, then.
19:34:35 <david_werecat> It looks like my program is just faster, since it uses a narrowing attack of order 35.
19:34:50 <david_werecat> It clears the defensive spikes easily.
19:36:37 <david_werecat> Although, I'm still sure that I can't truly beat something in first place...
19:37:00 <itidus21> in conclusion, i think that the relation between "a life of wandering about the jungle as a hunter with a spear" and "a life of studying bosons and galaxies" is that it doesn't matter which
19:37:05 <ais523> when they were released, both waterfall3 and slowpoke had 100% win rates
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19:37:46 <david_werecat> That's impressive. Were they parameter optimized?
19:40:23 <david_werecat> awful_25 is just a parameter optimized version of awful_24 with a couple of new features.
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19:43:39 <nortti_> #echo !tell nortti foo
19:43:39 <oonbotti> !tell nortti foo
19:43:51 <nortti_> #echo @tell nortti foo
19:43:51 <oonbotti> @tell nortti foo
19:43:51 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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19:44:27 <nortti_> hmm. that could result in some interesting botloops
19:45:06 <ais523> #echo > text "#this is a proof of concept botloop"
19:45:06 <oonbotti> > text "#this is a proof of concept botloop"
19:45:07 <lambdabot> #this is a proof of concept botloop
19:45:15 <ais523> ah no, leading space in lambdabot's reply
19:45:23 <ais523> #echo ^echo test
19:45:23 <oonbotti> ^echo test
19:45:23 <fungot> test test
19:45:33 <ais523> /that/ one's exploitable :)
19:45:39 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
19:45:52 <itidus21> #echo ^echo #echo fungot
19:45:52 <oonbotti> ^echo #echo fungot
19:45:53 <fungot> itidus21: does it help that this isn't true too?"
19:45:53 <fungot> #echo fungot #echo fungot
19:45:53 <oonbotti> fungot #echo fungot
19:45:54 <fungot> oonbotti: and is able to take it off, and finally called f.) i have a feeling that a c compiler for symbolics lisp machines.
19:46:29 <ais523> #echo ^ul ((#echo ^ul )SaS(:^)S):^
19:46:29 <oonbotti> ^ul ((#echo ^ul )SaS(:^)S):^
19:46:29 <fungot> #echo ^ul ((#echo ^ul )SaS(:^)S):^
19:46:30 <oonbotti> ^ul ((#echo ^ul )SaS(:^)S):^
19:46:30 <fungot> #echo ^ul ((#echo ^ul )SaS(:^)S):^
19:46:31 <oonbotti> ^ul ((#echo ^ul )SaS(:^)S):^
19:46:31 <fungot> #echo ^ul ((#echo ^ul )SaS(:^)S):^
19:46:32 <oonbotti> ^ul ((#echo ^ul )SaS(:^)S):^
19:46:32 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: +m.
19:46:37 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -m.
19:46:40 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523.
19:46:44 <ais523> best way to stop a botloop ever :)
19:46:48 <nortti_> #echo `echo #echo ^echo #echo foo
19:46:48 <oonbotti> `echo #echo ^echo #echo foo
19:46:50 <HackEgo> ​#echo ^echo #echo foo
19:47:18 <Taneb> ^echo #echo ^echo
19:47:18 <fungot> #echo ^echo #echo ^echo
19:47:18 <oonbotti> ^echo #echo ^echo
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19:47:37 <itidus21> the second echo didn't actually get called in my schtick
19:47:40 <fizzie> Sorry, but I ruined it.
19:47:42 <fizzie> ^ignore
19:47:42 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti)!
19:47:58 <ais523> fizzie: a good response
19:48:10 <ais523> I managed to stop the botloop before you managed to stop it, though :)
19:48:24 <ais523> (admittedly, I started typing out the /mode command as soon as I sent the botloop, and pressed return as soon as I saw it had worked)
19:48:33 <fizzie> Yes, well, I blame this phone keyboard.
19:49:17 <nortti_> #echo `echo #echo @echo foo
19:49:17 <oonbotti> `echo #echo @echo foo
19:49:19 <HackEgo> ​#echo @echo foo
19:49:42 <itidus21> #echo ^echo fungot
19:49:42 <oonbotti> ^echo fungot
19:49:43 <fungot> itidus21: erm. i did really well on my scheme so i guess the movie was written by you
19:49:50 <itidus21> ok
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19:52:20 <nortti_> #echo `cat foo
19:52:20 <oonbotti> `cat foo
19:52:23 <HackEgo> ​#echo `cat foo
19:54:24 <itidus21> #echo ^echo #echo ^bf ,[.,]!fungot
19:54:24 <oonbotti> ^echo #echo ^bf ,[.,]!fungot
19:54:25 <fungot> itidus21: isn't the language spec calls them, environments). *sigh* :) that's what contracts check. check.
19:55:15 <itidus21> #echo ^bf ,[.,]!fungot
19:55:15 <oonbotti> ^bf ,[.,]!fungot
19:55:16 <fungot> itidus21: the esco guys are funny :) ah, i count those days you don't know lisp much... output a 0 then quit.
19:55:31 <itidus21> and.. i can stop..
19:56:55 <nortti_> #echo `cat foo
19:56:55 <oonbotti> `cat foo
19:56:57 <HackEgo> ​#echo `cat foo
19:57:37 <nortti_> ok. now I see why it doesn't work and I think it is a good thing
19:58:23 <monqy> invisible antibotloop prefix "thanks hackego"?
20:00:26 <nortti_> yeah. I had to look at oonbotti's debug log to seeit
20:00:32 <fizzie> Antilope-bot prefix.
20:00:36 <nortti_> *see it
20:01:47 <david_werecat> Any idea how to remove a program from bfjoust?
20:02:06 <Taneb> Right better programs and drown it out
20:02:12 <fizzie> Right.
20:02:27 <Taneb> Correct better programs and drown it out
20:02:38 <Taneb> That's how I got on the high scores once
20:03:12 <monqy> analyse its behavioure/understand how it works and "snipe" it
20:03:46 <fizzie> Incidentally, what does it do if you submit a suicidal program with the same nick and name?
20:03:50 -!- augur has joined.
20:04:04 <david_werecat> !bfjoust awful_25_tiny <
20:04:07 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_awful_25_tiny: 0.0
20:04:56 <monqy> i'd hope it would keep the best-scoring program from each nick/name
20:05:03 <monqy> but "who knows"
20:05:15 <nortti_> !bfjoust fail [-]
20:05:19 <EgoBot> ​Score for nortti__fail: 16.3
20:05:23 <nortti_> ...
20:06:01 <fizzie> I don't think it does; you're free to downgrade yourself.
20:06:05 <ais523> nortti_: [-] can tie with some rush programs
20:06:13 <ais523> on half the polarities
20:07:15 <david_werecat> !bfjoust awful_25_tiny [[+]+.]
20:07:19 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_awful_25_tiny: 17.1
20:09:24 <david_werecat> !bfjoust awful_25_tiny [[+]+]
20:09:28 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_awful_25_tiny: 16.3
20:09:31 <david_werecat> !bfjoust awful_25_tiny [[+]+.]
20:09:35 <EgoBot> ​Score for david_werecat_awful_25_tiny: 16.3
20:10:41 <david_werecat> Now to wait for a better program to flush that out...
20:14:17 <fizzie> Man, the Python/SciPy/matplotlib mess to update the 'egostats' page is the slowest thing in the slow.
20:18:42 <fizzie> Page updated, anyway.
20:20:17 <fizzie> At least the clustering this time grouped the awful_X's (discounting tiny) together.
20:20:33 -!- derdon has joined.
20:20:59 <fizzie> And triplock2/triplock3, waterfall2/waterfall3 pairs, the first being the pair with smallest distance.
20:22:15 <fizzie> Also I only now realized that deewiant_allegro is a train too.
20:23:33 <david_werecat> Train?
20:24:14 <fizzie> Allegro is the name of the Helsinki / Saint Petersburg train.
20:24:56 <david_werecat> Ah. I though it was music related.
20:24:59 <fizzie> (And deewiant_pendolino is presumably named after the fast-ish Pendolino trains.)
20:25:20 <fizzie> So did I, and it still might be, but since the other one is unambiguously a train.
20:26:01 <fizzie> Plus Deewiant had a "sm3" earlier.
20:26:11 <Taneb> Guy likes his trains
20:26:17 <fizzie> Well, and that maglev thing, which also might count.
20:26:30 <fizzie> (And monorail.)
20:27:22 <fizzie> (And, uh, apparently "train" and "train2", according to grep.)
20:39:46 <Taneb> I think I'll play DF for a bit
20:42:28 <Phantom__Hoover> I want to play DF :(
20:42:38 <Taneb> You can watch me play DF :)
20:42:43 <Phantom__Hoover> I'm just not sure I'll be able to handle all the new things.
20:42:49 <Phantom__Hoover> OK what server, port
20:42:59 <Phantom__Hoover> s/server/host/
20:43:45 -!- itidus21 has left ("Leaving").
20:44:01 <Taneb> I...
20:44:04 <Taneb> I don't actually know
20:44:18 <Taneb> It's on noway.ratry.ru
20:44:21 <Phantom__Hoover> Wait I thought you'd termcast it.
20:44:53 <Taneb> I think so?
20:44:56 <Phantom__Hoover> Is it telnet or?
20:45:02 <Taneb> I think so?
20:45:05 <Taneb> I don't know the port
20:45:21 <Phantom__Hoover> http://noway.ratry.ru/
20:45:27 <Phantom__Hoover> taneb is this really it
20:45:34 <Taneb> Annoyingly, yes
20:45:36 <ais523> ratry is the machine on which termcast is hosted, indeed
20:45:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:45:47 <Phantom__Hoover> What port?
20:45:51 <ais523> and which you connect to to send to termcast (you connect to termcast itself to receive)
20:45:53 <Phantom__Hoover> You're a man who knows his stuff.
20:45:57 <ais523> `pastlog ratry
20:45:58 <Taneb> I send on 31337
20:46:05 <Phantom__Hoover> Stuff such as what your middle name is.
20:46:17 <Phantom__Hoover> Hey ais523 what's your middle name.
20:46:30 <HackEgo> No output.
20:46:38 <ais523> what makes you think my initials correspond in any way to my name? I'm an INTERCAL programmer
20:46:39 <ais523> `pastlog ratry
20:46:57 <HackEgo> 2012-05-08.txt:05:13:41: <monqy> script -f >( cat ~/.ratry_login - | nc noway.ratry.ru 31337 > /dev/null )
20:47:13 <ais523> and ratry_login is "hello username password"
20:47:23 <ais523> without the quotes, and (IIRC) with a newline at the end
20:47:26 <Phantom__Hoover> Because I know your name is Alex Smith and I is a fairly common initial in the UK.
20:48:34 <monqy> Alex "Insidiouspseudonym" Smith
20:48:44 <Phantom__Hoover> Alex INTERCAL Smith.
20:48:54 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: haha, that pinged me
20:49:04 <ais523> not because I have a ping on "Alex Smith", but because I have a ping on "INTERCAL"
20:49:06 <Phantom__Hoover> THE TRUTH REVEALED
20:49:12 <ais523> perhaps I /should/ put a ping on my realname…
20:51:39 <Taneb> My other nick uses my middle initials
20:51:57 <Taneb> And Phantom__Hoover's initials actually spell "PHANTOMHOOVER".
20:52:11 <Taneb> He doesn't speak to his parent
20:52:11 <Taneb> s
20:54:19 -!- david_werecat has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:05:53 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Ngevd.
21:07:15 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client Sucks @$$( http://www.androirc.com )).
21:16:49 <Ngevd> I'm in a Ngevd-y mood
21:17:02 <kmc> TIL the London Underground has its own species of mosquito: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_mosquito
21:17:41 <Ngevd> Goodnight
21:17:42 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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21:22:08 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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22:11:33 <Sgeo_> o.O SICP has compiler writing?
22:12:56 <kmc> yes
22:13:19 <kmc> at the end of the book you write an interpreter for a register machine, a compiler from scheme to that register machine, and a runtime system including garbage collection
22:13:34 <kmc> afaik most college courses which use SICP do not get to this part
22:15:03 <Sgeo_> I should do SICP
22:15:12 <Sgeo_> How do I keep from getting bored at the early parts?
22:16:43 <Phantom__Hoover> Skip them?
22:17:26 -!- yiyus has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:17:52 -!- yiyus has joined.
22:21:31 <pikhq_> Skim until you get something you don't already know?
22:21:45 <pikhq_> Or, at least, something you find moderately interesting.
22:32:09 -!- calamari has joined.
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23:10:02 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: ian
23:10:12 * oerjan laughs maniackally
23:11:14 <Phantom__Hoover> Already tried.
23:11:45 <oerjan> wat
23:13:02 <oerjan> that _is_ what the late wp page had, anyhow.
23:15:50 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:18:33 * oerjan found an old version with it
23:25:48 * oerjan cackles a bit more after finding the source of that information
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23:36:20 -!- PatashuXantheres has changed nick to Patashu.
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