00:02:16 kmc: This code had a macro of the form special_debug_printf(("%s", args)). I didn't notice the extra () and #defined special_debug_printf printf. It took me a little while to figure out what was going on. Maybe you can use that for your underhanded code thing! 00:02:21 * shachaf is mostly just annoyed at this code. 00:04:29 shachaf: that's for c89 compat 00:06:13 @quote Warrigal 00:06:13 Warrigal says: Hey, the module loaded. I didn't expect that. 00:06:29 That... was probably funny in context? 00:06:32 @quote factorial 00:06:32 jcreigh says: i mean if someone says factorial should be of type String -> [(Float, Bool)], you should just tell them they're nuts > let fac n = map (\x -> (x, True)) $ scanl (* 00:06:32 ) 1 [1..(read n)] in fac "5" :: [(Float, Bool)] 00:07:11 @quote my factorial function 00:07:11 No quotes for this person. My mind is going. I can feel it. 00:17:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:23:46 Who here is good at naming git branches? :( 00:24:15 Me! 00:24:23 I like to name them ee1de02f4cc67f0d5d6a2ed0b3b03c9e6fa5c5a7 00:24:33 Or 2ee1eb0e876e64adf0c35a05ac63c785cfb23cdc 00:32:10 -!- nortti_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:33:27 I have only ever posted updates of files (and new files) to git, not branches 01:04:05 atehwa: Well, you can put the idea about videos on the esolang wiki list of ideas if you want to 01:04:37 oh, I didn't know such a list existed 01:04:42 why not :) 01:04:45 It's a mess. 01:04:47 But it exists. 01:04:52 http://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas 01:05:04 shachaf: I have looked at underhanded C codes and easily find the errors in most cases 01:05:05 it sounds like one, right from the topic :) 01:06:06 elliott: It used to be even more mess; it is better now. And still, I think it is good the way it is; ideas with a lot more completion can go to separate pages which can be written better if you have that 01:06:18 It is slightly less of a mess. 01:06:23 Slightly. 01:06:29 But then it got more messy again. 01:07:27 * ion reads http://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas and patents them all! 01:09:04 zzo38: where did you find these codes 01:09:23 Method and system for implementing a compiler for a programming language based on graphics represented in the American Standard Code for Information Interchange 01:10:03 kmc: I forget 01:12:14 In programs that take a random stream of bits to generate random integers within a range, and if the range is not a power of two, would you deal with the uniformness of the generator? 01:13:38 Ugh. 01:13:52 I may not like the situation with "web applications" these days. 01:14:12 But I'm glad we're not in the days of CGI scripts written in C anymore. 01:14:27 shachaf: Are you writing a CGI script in C? 01:14:39 elliott: No, I'm reading a CGI script written in C. 01:14:40 shachaf: I don't like either. But even recently I have written a CGI script in C. 01:14:43 I guess it's not a "script". 01:16:43 TeXnicard uses the following algorithm for random number generator: unsigned int r=max_uint-(max_uint%limit); for(;;) { @; @; } 01:18:37 hmm 01:18:52 what sort of language can you make out of only 2 symbols 01:19:00 Binary 01:19:17 There is also Jot, which uses 0 and 1 and then eventually ends 01:19:28 and is crazy functionnal stuff? :D 01:19:40 :D 01:19:47 I miss monqy. :-( 01:20:23 so 01:20:31 who composes music in here 01:20:40 I sometimes do 01:20:46 But Gregor probably does more 01:20:59 cool 01:21:12 -!- TheJimmyJames has joined. 01:21:15 yeah I think gregor does sheet music, especially piano 01:21:23 `welcome TheJimmyJames 01:21:26 TheJimmyJames: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 01:21:42 zzo: what sort of music do you do? 01:21:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:22:45 madbrr: I do four-part chorale on paper, I also do monophonic music on QBASIC using PLAY command, and some using Bohlen-Pierce as well using PlayBP which is a subroutine I made up for that purpose 01:23:38 never tried bohlen-pierce 01:24:01 I have experimented with other temperaments as well 01:24:56 I have also written some polyphonic music using PPMCK 01:25:31 as of yet the most interesting I've found was using modified scale for some melodic instument, over equal temperament chords 01:26:01 especially the arabic-ish kind of scale where you detune stuff like 3rds and 6ths more towards "neutral" intervals 01:26:30 ppmck is the one for making NES music right? 01:26:34 Yes 01:26:56 yeah I've mostly used converters for my nes stuff 01:27:10 I have also made some changes to PPMCK, so that a subroutine call followed by return from subroutine is just replaced by a jump instruction instead 01:27:20 What converters? 01:27:44 the s3m2nsf / it2nsf / supernsf family 01:30:51 -!- augur has joined. 01:31:48 supernsf is particularly ridiculous 01:31:54 lets you cheat way too much :D 01:31:59 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94ZEczIYbUQ <- supernsf 01:32:03 Cheat? 01:33:35 notice anything about the dpcm? :D 01:34:27 Do you mean it converts WAV to DPCM and plays that as the music? 01:35:34 well, you could do that but it's cooler even 01:35:56 the song fits in like 200k 01:36:57 Have you ever sent anything to Famicompo or Famicompo Mini? 01:37:14 yes the song I linked to was in famicompo mini 01:37:34 What volume and number? I have the entire Famicompo Mini on my computer so I can easily find it 01:37:59 the last one 01:38:26 I mean, what volume number, section (cover or original), and entry number? 01:38:41 famicompo 8 cover 63 01:38:54 OK 01:40:37 OK now I can see 01:42:47 can't be one huge dpcm sample for the whole tune, would be much larger than 200k 01:42:57 Yes I can see what is done now 01:43:36 it's a software mixer and reampler for the NES 01:43:45 it uses 100% cpu :D 01:44:20 Does that mean you cannot include the music in a game? 01:44:30 yeah you couldn't put that in a gaime 01:44:35 since it uses 100% 01:45:25 does nothing else than resample 2~4 channels of sound, apply volume, mix, write to the DPCM port to set position 01:45:50 and from time to time interpret a music data command (to change the sample freq or volume or the NES channels) 01:45:52 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:48:12 the song has like one sample for each word ("smoke" "wee-" "-eed" "ev-" "-ery" "day"), so all the silly echoes and harmonizations are all sequenced :D 01:49:48 hey hey smoke weed everyday 01:51:09 O, that's what they are saying. I found the speech difficult to understand at first 01:51:43 yeah it's a recent silly meme on youtube 01:52:27 use samples from that one time snoop dogg says "smoke weed everyday" without any instrumental backing and fit that over random VGM :D 01:53:18 "Only thing is... wouldn't that be against the Big Beat Manifesto?" 01:53:19 "Have you read the Big Beat Manifesto lately? The Big Beat Manifesto goes, 'Big beats are the best, get high all the time.'" 01:59:47 also did fcm8 original 40, fcm7 original 1 & 71, fcm6 original 19 cover 37 & 42, fcm5 original 58 cover 8, fcm classical original 22 02:02:39 I do like fcm8 original 40 and fcm7 original 1, I don't like fcm8 cover 63 much though. 02:03:08 that's pretty dumb 02:03:24 i can see the humor of adding "smoke weed every day" to a vgm track 02:03:38 but adding a poorly autotuned sample on every note? 02:03:48 that just gets annoying fast 02:04:19 autotuned? 02:04:37 kmc: Do you have the entire Famicompo Mini on your computer? 02:04:41 no 02:04:53 anyways it's mostly for the meme value (and because the moon is a nice song) 02:10:24 "for the meme value" is a completely bankrupt rationale 02:10:56 "why do you keep giving people herpes?" "for the herpes value!" 02:11:46 Why do you keep giving people herps? For the derps value! 02:13:41 herps derps 02:14:54 kmc: If everyone had herpes, you wouldn't have to worry about giving/getting herpes anymore! 02:14:59 Herpes: The Great Equalizer. 02:15:34 Smoke weed every day. 02:17:16 If everyone was dead, you wouldn't have to worry about killing/being killed anymore! 02:17:21 Death: The Great Equalizer. 02:26:29 If the Earth didn't exist, you wouldn't have to worry about it orbiting the Sun anymore! 02:28:13 Spontaneous planetary cessation: The Great Equalizer. 02:32:54 Can you remind me what the command is in C to access the current UNIX timestamp? 02:34:08 I am going to add a support for a timer to Internet Quiz Engine. 02:34:54 zzo38: time_t time(time_t *t); 02:35:42 what's the point of time(2)'s pointer argument? 02:35:52 I have no *clue*. 02:36:12 The *semantics* are that, if t is non-NULL, it'll store its return value in there, too. 02:36:17 right 02:36:19 Why you would want this is beyond me. 02:36:45 Especially since C allows assignments inside of other expressions 02:39:48 Hmm, does strace replace the VDSO with its a little tracing function or something? 02:42:36 don't believe so 02:42:43 i don't think you see gettimeofday(2) in strace 02:43:03 you might see it in ltrace assuming it's being called through libc 02:43:14 -!- MDude has joined. 02:44:05 shachaf: it uses ptrace 02:44:46 elliott: I know it uses ptrace. That means that it only sees actual system calls that go to the kernel. 02:44:55 -!- MSleep has joined. 02:44:57 that's right 02:45:06 I do see time(NULL) calls in strace. 02:45:13 But maybe that's not done through gettimeofday(2). 02:45:32 i know the VDSO handles gettimeofday and clock_gettime but I don't know about time 02:45:38 madbrr: All of the files you mentioned are very good; the only one you did that I don't like much is fcm8 cover 63 02:45:45 on my amd64 system I don't see gettimeofday calls unless I build a static binary 02:46:29 static binaries don't use vsyscalls but I think on i386 they still use the VDSO for regular syscalls 02:46:47 * shachaf wonders why the VDSO even exists. 02:46:57 on i386 you get an ELF auxv entry for the start of the VDSO ELF in memory, and another auxv entry for the syscall entry point 02:46:59 I mean, as opposed to doing it in libc. 02:47:02 on amd64 you get only the first of those 02:47:07 Is it just so the kernel can generate the code once at boot? 02:48:19 ??? 02:48:27 Oh no, other MDude isn't timing out. 02:48:40 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDuck. 02:48:46 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:48:49 /msg nickserv ghost MDude 02:49:23 the userspace code immediately surrounding the call into ring 0 is basically kernel implementation details 02:49:31 it makes sense to let that change with the kernel, not with libc 02:49:39 Someone else registered MDude sometime before I showed up, I was just using the nick because I use it elsewhere. 02:49:53 ditto the implementation of gettimeofday etc, which read kernel data structures 02:49:54 It could be that whoever actually registered it showed up. 02:50:01 kmc: libc is already really closely coupled with the kernel. 02:50:18 it's a nicer option than making the locations and layouts of those "internal" data structures part of the stable ABI 02:50:24 shachaf: not to this degree, I think 02:50:32 Unless he just joined right before elliott notes that something uses ptrace. 02:50:40 *noted 02:51:10 Oh hey look he disconnected while I wasn't paying attention. 02:51:14 -!- MDuck has changed nick to MDude. 02:51:14 MDuck: You can check by NS INFO and WHOIS commands, some information about someone else with that nickname 02:51:41 I'll try to remember. 02:51:47 shachaf: the VDSO makes particular sense for SYSENTER 02:52:38 when userspace invokes the SYSENTER instruction, the CPU jumps to kernel code in ring 0 without saving the userspace instruction pointer (or code segment) 02:52:41 kmc: Right, because the address has to be known. 02:52:52 (But then the VDSO can't be randomized anymore, can it?) 02:52:55 which means that practically a) you should have only one SYSENTER instruction in all of userspace, and b) the kernel needs to know where it is 02:52:56 (Well, I guess it can.) 02:53:08 shachaf: I was just thinking about that, but I worked it out 02:53:17 because the kernel knows where the VDSO is mapped in each process's spacj 02:53:19 space* 02:53:20 Right. 02:53:27 Hence my second line. :-) 02:53:32 What's [vsyscall], then? 02:53:50 whereas, if the SYSENTER instruction were in vanilla libc code, there would have to be an extra mechanism for telling the kernel where it is 02:54:04 not like Linux is averse to such mechanisms (*cough* set_robust_list(2) *cough*) 02:54:15 No manual entry for set_robust_list 02:54:28 http://lwn.net/Articles/172149/ 02:54:28 Did you know that in Haskell, you can make up the Kleisli category for Set to be an instance of Category, even though Set cannot be an instance of Monad? 02:54:58 zzo38: No. How can you do that? 02:55:04 shachaf: [vsyscall] is the old non-randomized VDSO-like thing 02:55:49 shachaf: http://sprunge.us/CDAB 02:57:45 You're using an existential type? 02:57:48 Seems kind of od.d 02:58:27 shachaf: these days it contains only short sequences like "mov $0x60, %rax; syscall; ret" 02:58:57 it's a compatibility layer only, which goes through the slow "real" syscall path 02:58:57 shachaf: Well, it does work. 02:59:36 kmc: Oh, I can use this for the debugger thing, then. 02:59:45 ah, that's true! 02:59:46 It's not even randomized so it's much nicer. 02:59:54 I guess a process *could* still unmap it. 03:00:06 But it should work for any "reasonable" program. 03:00:38 Why is dumping [vdso]/[vsyscall] such a hassle. :-( 03:00:48 shachaf: Where is zzo38 using an existential type there? 03:00:55 shachaf: here's a puzzle: why can you do memcpy(buf, vsyscall, 4096); write(1, buf, 4096); 03:01:02 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:01:04 but not write(1, vsyscall, 4096); 03:01:05 elliott: Wait, it's not an existential type. 03:01:15 elliott: Never mind. 03:01:19 (where char *vsyscall = (char*) 0xffffffffff600000) 03:01:23 kmc: I was just wondering about that earlier! 03:01:50 do you want the answer? 03:02:54 The funny part is that the behavior of fwrite() changes depending on whether you printfed some text previously. 03:03:05 Because if you do then it copies the page into a buffer, I guess. 03:03:08 Hmm, let me see. 03:03:56 heh, nice! 03:04:05 i didn't think about that 03:04:11 That was a strange bug to track down. 03:04:24 keep that one in mind for the devious code contest 03:04:58 shachaf: here is my vdso dumper: https://gist.github.com/2799304 03:05:16 (unlike vsyscall you don't need an intermediate buffer) 03:05:38 I parsed /proc/self/maps in C. :-( 03:05:59 High-level languages should have easy unsafe-memory-access primitives! 03:07:28 that's why i love ctypes! 03:07:37 look at my python vdso dumper 03:07:47 unsafe memory access is pretty easy in Haskell, too 03:08:17 Right, I saw. 03:11:45 Hmm, so it's not just because it's a high address. 03:15:04 it's not? 03:15:20 No, I just forgot to pass MAP_FIXED to mmap. 03:16:51 yeah, the reason (aiui) is that the kernel checks the pointer argument to 'write' to make sure it's below the user/kernel cutoff 03:17:07 and the generic code which does that doesn't know that userspace is allowed to read this one high-mapped page 03:17:14 but the page tables do know that, so memcpy works fine 03:17:51 that's gross 03:17:59 I just used while (ptr < end) putchar(*ptr); 03:18:46 ptr++ 03:18:47 Whatever. 03:19:15 elliott: yeah 03:19:30 someone should fix said generic code 03:19:39 more generally, it's gross that the kernel has to duplicate the page table's knowledge about what userspace is allowed to read 03:19:49 elliott: But the performance penalty! 03:19:52 though linux only does this at a coarse level 03:19:55 I mean, it's not as if it actually matters. 03:20:00 shachaf: i don't care if it slows the system down by half 03:20:03 it's gross 03:20:11 if you pass a faulting userspace address to write(), that does indeed trigger a pagefault in ring 0 code 03:20:18 kmc: does it really "have" to do that 03:20:56 but the pagefault handler knows that faults on certain kernel instructions should translate to "set this flag" rather than "kill the process and BUG the fuck out" 03:21:55 fixing access_ok to know about vsyscall is dumb because nobody actually cares and because making that code more complicated will harm security 03:22:04 kmc: i care 03:22:08 the performance wankers would all switch over to ____do_real_access_ok() 03:22:18 and then there would be a bug in that 03:22:20 i think it's literally a trivial change to the point of not harming security 03:22:28 because it's one single page on one platform 03:22:45 elliott: But no one cares. 03:22:46 you should fork linux on github 03:22:48 and make this one change 03:22:57 And submit a pull request via GitHub! 03:23:04 and post stupid meme images in it 03:23:08 and post it to proggit and hn 03:23:13 and wait for people to flame linux for being so behind-the-times 03:23:15 er 03:23:16 *linus 03:23:17 same thing 03:23:30 anyway i might send a patch to lkml 03:23:32 who knows 03:23:47 "dec eax; mov eax, 0x60; syscall; ret" 03:23:52 What's that dec eax for? 03:24:01 it decreases eax by one 03:24:02 hope this help 03:24:02 s 03:24:05 elliott: You already know the response to the patch will be "no one cares". 03:24:08 maybe for 64-bit stuff 03:24:18 shachaf: maybe linus will see it and merge it 03:24:22 how do you know! 03:24:24 Why do they need to decrement eax register there? 03:24:30 Maybe elliott is right. 03:24:36 doesn't decrement do stuff to the higher part of rax there 03:24:39 maybe 03:24:40 Does it have anything to do with the flags for zero condition and so on? 03:24:40 It might be that that zeros the upper half of the register or something? 03:24:58 I remember that rax/eax /= eax/ax in that respect. 03:25:01 this is why i don't like assembly language 03:25:32 stuff just like that 03:26:30 I think in 64 bit writing to eax zeroes the higher bits 03:26:44 yep 03:26:47 So why the dec? 03:26:59 to zero the higher bits 03:27:19 but mov also zeroes them 03:27:22 doesn't mov eax, 0x60 do that 03:27:29 that's what he said 03:27:31 I want an x86 assembly REPL. :-( 03:27:39 what's repl 03:27:40 shachaf: where did you find that code 03:27:44 (to give it an abbot and costello sense of confusion) 03:27:47 kmc: In [vsyscall]. 03:27:56 hmm mine doesn't have 03:28:07 shachaf: Is the DOS DEBUG good enough? Maybe not as it is not a proper REPL 03:28:09 Oh, wait. 03:28:11 Never mind. 03:28:19 kmc: You can probably guess what went wrong. :-) 03:28:24 madbrr: Repeat enter p-list. It's an x86 instruction. 03:28:25 -!- cmapernet has joined. 03:28:34 -!- cmapernet has left. 03:28:35 shachaf: What went wrong? 03:28:36 shachaf: wrong disassembly mode? 03:28:38 By cmapernet 03:28:40 *e . 03:28:41 yep 03:28:44 Yes, dec eax = 48 03:28:56 Which is the 64-bit register prefix. 03:29:04 nice 03:29:06 Or something along those lines. 03:29:16 I still want an x86 REPL. 03:29:59 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 03:30:04 kmc: How's your libcless server going? 03:30:25 done 03:30:42 What did it do? 03:31:17 stuff 03:31:19 one day i will share it 03:31:32 but it's even more pointlessly "look at how hardcore i am" than most of the stuff i share 03:31:44 i was hoping for it to be a sort of easter egg in another thing 03:31:46 but that didn't work out 03:31:52 Oh, now I know why I had to use mmap2() instead of mmap(). 03:32:19 "exciting linux history lesson" 03:32:58 what were you using mmap for? 03:33:11 kmc: by the way there is a text form of CC0 03:33:19 oh 03:33:21 http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/legalcode.txt 03:33:22 kmc: Allocating memory. 03:33:40 (In a debugged process, from the debugger.) 03:33:45 (So I used the syscall number.) 03:33:46 aha 03:33:49 Probably in case public domain doesn't work in some country 03:33:50 right 03:33:56 kmc: also you forgot to waive warranty, see http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CC0_FAQ#May_I_apply_CC0_to_computer_software.3F_If_so.2C_is_there_a_recommended_implementation.3F 03:33:56 zzo38: yeah, that is why CC0 exists 03:33:58 (this is re autoharden) 03:34:04 right 03:34:07 i thought that was already in there 03:34:28 i'm pretty sure i checked 03:34:54 Does CC0 waive contract rights related to copyright? 03:35:00 "Affirmer offers the Work as-is and makes no epresentations or warranties of any kind concerning the Work, express, implied, statutory or otherwise, including without limitation warranties of title, merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose, blah blah blah blah blah" 03:35:03 * shachaf looks up autoharden. 03:35:12 Ah, a new MIUAF post. 03:35:20 kmc: i think the point is to make the warranty disclaimer visible 03:35:25 rather than at the bottom of a huge license 03:35:27 03:35:28 where it might not hold up 03:35:31 yeah 03:35:32 sigh 03:35:39 THIS IS WHY YOU WRITE IT ALL IN CAPITALS 03:35:42 i hate the whole "every source file must start with 3 paragraphs of boilerplate" thing 03:35:45 so i don't do it 03:35:50 kmc++ # not doing it 03:35:50 meh, don't bother adding it to a source file 03:35:52 i guess one day oracle will sue me for all my meager savings 03:35:57 just put the boilerplate text in LICENSE 03:36:04 and download CC0 to CC0.txt or something 03:36:08 ok 03:36:12 that's not a bad idea 03:36:19 i don't add things to source files either 03:36:20 i hate that 03:36:26 if a court ever rules it's required i'll give up programming 03:36:36 elliott: Didn't you already give up programming? 03:36:37 or switch to writing proprietary software 03:36:40 shachaf: true 03:36:52 For example, you might be in a contract to make something you own the copyright to belonging to them instead. But that would be impossible with public domain. 03:36:54 kmc: You should add a thing to autoconf where it asks you to accept a license. 03:37:00 if a court ever rules it's required i will personally teabag everyone in the courtroom 03:37:07 "checking if user agrees to the license... yes" 03:37:11 And it makes you scroll all the way down to the bottom before giving you "yes/no" options. 03:37:19 elliott: or you can start coding underground 03:37:24 Even if the license is GPLv2 every time. 03:37:31 i like itidus21's idea 03:37:42 if you release software anonymously then nobody can come after you for warranty 03:37:49 also you can cultivate a mysterious cult of personality 03:38:02 oh uh.. yeah that was exactly my idea 03:38:15 looks around shiftily 03:38:43 types text into irc 03:39:25 provides self-referential description of activity 03:40:06 "provides self-referential description of activity when typed in irc" 03:40:13 * itidus21 breaks the 5th wall. 03:40:19 That one doesn't even work. 03:40:31 minding the gap since 1996 03:40:35 Why isn't this server crashing. :-( 03:40:35 Does CC0 deal with this problem of contracts at all? 03:40:55 kmc: I got the mysterious crash a second time, but the HTTP request was completely boring. 03:41:09 shachaf: first you must realize, there is no server 03:41:11 Now I enabled core dumps (I think) and am stracing everything rather than just network. 03:42:22 kmc: mosh is too many files. Can you make it one file instead? 03:42:33 yep 03:42:40 elliott: I recommend sqlite.c 03:42:40 here you go: http://git.io/o_7nKw 03:42:48 That's not a text file. 03:42:56 it is in codepage 437! 03:42:59 elliott: Just pass it to base64. 03:43:03 -!- TheJimmyJames has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:43:08 cries 03:43:12 it's not a C file 03:43:19 a UTF-8 C file 03:43:31 -!- TheJimmyJames has joined. 03:43:47 Would a contract be able to force you to retract a liscense that gives no conditions under which it may be retracted? I would think that wouldn't make sense. 03:43:48 C Big Endian 03:43:50 `welcome TheJimmyJames 03:43:53 TheJimmyJames: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 03:44:01 kmc: https://github.com/keithw/mosh/issues/120 +1 +1 +1 03:44:32 @pl \x -> x +1 +1 +1 03:44:32 (3 +) 03:44:37 thambdabot 03:45:04 kmc: another mosh question for you!!! 03:45:10 does the mosh client build on Windows? 03:45:27 @google mosh windows 03:45:28 http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2011/01/05/are-mosh-and-jupiter-windows-8s-killer-features/ 03:45:28 Title: Are ‘Mosh’ and ‘Jupiter’ Windows 8′s killer features? - The Next Web 03:45:32 mosh: Windows 8's killer feature 03:46:11 "The current Mosh 1.2 release candidate officially supports building from source on Cygwin. Please try it and report back with any problems." - kmcallister "kmc" mckmc 03:46:38 lol lambdabot.. you have really outdone yourself 03:47:03 «According to Paul, Mosh is a “new tile-based user interface.”» 03:48:23 @google according to paul 03:48:26 http://www.ibiblio.org/freebiblecommentary/pdf/EN/VOL05.pdf 03:48:48 thfornothingambdabot 03:48:56 shachaf: Cygwin doesn't count. 03:49:09 Does MinGW count? 03:49:16 "immersive apps" wat 03:49:18 Yes. 03:49:50 i love immersive apps 03:49:55 i'm immersed in an app 03:49:59 constantly 03:50:27 also that's like 1½ years old 03:51:08 ahh i was getting mosh confused with mush 03:51:13 Thanks kmc. 03:51:23 CGI is such a mess. 03:51:28 presumably, the so called mosh and jupiter stuff are metro 03:51:30 "ih8u cgi :'(" 03:51:36 and winrt 03:51:45 Also programs that are written in C are such a mess. 03:52:09 why 03:52:10 Does CWEB make it better? 03:52:10 Badly, that is. 03:52:36 "Elegance is not a dispensable luxury but a quality that decides between success and failure" -- Edsger W. Dijkstra 03:52:39 And what is wrong with CGI? 03:52:44 you know, as much as this is the kind of thing i *want* to be true 03:52:46 Thkmc. 03:52:52 i don't really believe it is 03:53:05 unless you read "decides" to mean "has some small influence" 03:53:09 shachaf: but if you want to write cpu efficient code then C++ is practically the only way 03:53:14 lol 03:53:22 or define "success" to be "producing an elegant system" 03:53:32 hrm 03:53:33 madbrr: um,,,,,asm!!!! 03:53:34 If you want to write CPU efficient code, there is assembly language. But that is only for the specific CPU. 03:53:40 monqy: not helping!!!! 03:53:42 madbrr: "gotta get close to that hard ware" 03:53:50 For working with many computers, you use C or LLVM. 03:53:54 the hardware is within 2 feet 03:53:57 kmc: Overoptimizing for elegance often has an influence in the opposite direction. :-) 03:53:59 responding to messages that take a message referring to C and then refer to C++ in response considered "dumb" 03:54:01 the hardware is within 1 inch 03:54:05 the hardware is within 1 um 03:54:11 things I dislike about Haskell: rewriting code into the IO monad is annoying 03:54:16 the u is a mu i just cant type mus 03:54:20 coppro: don't do that 03:54:26 (usually) 03:54:32 coppro: How do you mean? 03:54:56 madbrr: most programs don't need maximum CPU efficiency 03:55:07 and even the ones that do, they need it only in a small fraction of the code 03:55:15 are you really going to start a serious argument in reply to that statement 03:55:21 yeah 03:55:22 really #esoteric 03:55:23 really 03:55:23 sorry 03:55:34 was my argument not serious :'( 03:55:35 i accept yr apology 03:55:40 I am, for my own personal amusement, writing an IRC bot framework. The obvious way is have a String -> String function that runs the bot, and internal modules in the State monad. 03:55:49 You can't be efficient without templates! 03:55:54 coppro: that's the wrong way, fwiw 03:55:57 kmc: TeX: The Program does describe some things needing much efficiently in the "inner loop" 03:55:58 madbrr: um,,,,,,asm doesn't have tempalte!!!!! 03:55:59 qed 03:56:00 coppro: is it cpu efficient 03:56:03 s/adbrr/onqy/ 03:56:04 for a start you're depending on lazy io off the bat which is probably not a good idea 03:56:08 but 03:56:08 w/e 03:56:14 But then, of course, the modules cannot do IO themselves 03:56:20 yes 03:56:25 you designed wrong 03:56:28 shachaf: templates are far from the hardware and slow!!! ! 03:56:46 afaik asm is barely faster on out of order architectures 03:56:47 monqy: Then why does C++ have them? 03:56:48 CHECKMATE 03:56:52 You could use (StateT s IO) monad if you will do IO too 03:56:53 unless you're doing SIMD 03:56:58 "(This is analogous to screen, in which C-a a sends a literal C-a. The reason this is a good idea is so sending the escape character through a stack of n moshes or screens doesn’t take 2^n keystrokes.)" 03:57:02 kmc: now you have n problems 03:57:03 stuffing them inside StateT foo IO is the correct way to make them able to do IO 03:57:13 coppro: for certain values of correct, sure 03:57:18 StateT foo IO is often a bad idea 03:57:20 elliott: what do you suggest? 03:57:23 depends 03:57:28 shachaf: im checkmate :[ 03:57:31 I wouldn't model a bot as String -> String in the first place 03:57:35 :[ 03:57:41 elliott: No, but an IRC conversation is. 03:57:42 ~c++ enlighten me~ 03:57:43 or String -> IO String (<-- this wouldn't work at all actually) 03:57:47 coppro: i disagree 03:57:58 elliott: larrytheliquid wrote an IRC bot in Agda!!!!!! 03:58:08 s/wrote/modeled/ 03:58:10 It's true, string -> string ignroes timing, for one thing. 03:58:12 s/modeled/sort of modeled/ 03:58:15 *ignores 03:58:19 MDude: You take advantage of laziness. 03:58:23 see also interact 03:58:35 no 03:58:38 that's not laziness 03:58:39 that's lazy IO 03:58:43 which is completely separate from laziness 03:58:44 and a Bad Idea 03:58:54 (for anything other than toy programs, at least) 03:59:04 why is it a Bad Idea? 03:59:09 various reasons 03:59:12 I'm unfortunately too going to bed to talk about bots now. 03:59:17 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 03:59:23 it has some semantic iffiness 03:59:28 and more practically 03:59:34 yay it's just like i'm back in #haskell 03:59:34 it destroys more or less any hope of reasonable resource management 03:59:45 kmc: it's my present for your apology 04:00:57 ah 04:01:03 that seems reasonable 04:01:24 (because you never know when the resources get cleaned up) 04:01:30 (because it's tied to when a certain piece of pure data is evaluated) 04:01:34 (which is fun fun fun) 04:01:45 monqy: shachaf: i think that the most efficient way to code is to magically never have to refer back to previously written code. in addition it should all be written in shorthand. 04:01:57 anyway the reason StateT foo IO is often a bad idea is because it works just as well to use MVars/TVars inside IO 04:02:06 and is required if you, e.g. ever want any kind of concurrency 04:02:09 itidus21: use 1 letter variable names so the computer can read them faster 04:02:15 elliott: Except you have to pass the MVars around!!!!!! 04:02:22 shachaf: ReaderT (MVar foo) IO!!!!! 04:02:26 spoiler is: sometimes passing them around is easier 04:02:40 ReaderT (hi monqy) IO 04:02:48 The monqy.Reader 04:02:53 coppro: anyway i would probably model an irc bot as Conduit IRCMessage IO IRCMessage or something but ha ha it is probably not best to learn conduits right now 04:02:58 (or enumerators or pipes or w / e) 04:03:03 > (compare `on` take 3) "monqy" "monad" 04:03:04 EQ 04:03:07 Coïncidence? 04:03:22 i can only assume that new iteratee libraries have been invented at a rate of roughly one per day since i stopped paying attention 04:03:33 i think the tubulon iteratoolios are the best 04:03:47 you were around for conduits and pipes kmc 04:04:16 kmc: anyway\ 04:04:16 loud pipes save lives 04:04:25 \ 04:04:25 is there any hope of the mosh client compiling for windows without cygwin 04:04:27 monqy: i'm serious of course. a preference for elegance isn't a personality flaw, but just a mathematical problem waiting to be analyzed. 04:04:27 ever 04:04:28 s/\\$// 04:04:37 elliott: if someone who knows and cares about windows makes it happen, sure 04:04:47 kmc: great! i am neither of these things 04:04:51 none of the current core mosh developers know windows or care about windows or like windows 04:04:54 rephrase: how many posix calls does mosh use 04:05:02 we're happy to take patches though 04:05:05 elliott: a fair number 04:05:09 Windows is POSIX! 04:05:39 the subtext is: i wish there was like a putty fork with mosh support so it was more useful to me 04:05:58 coding should be done in such a way that simply don't have to look back on code which has been written, ever. 04:06:01 this isn't really subtext 04:06:06 more like "the real thing is:" 04:06:18 itidus21: ……… 04:06:37 elliott: how much do you actually code in Haskell? 04:06:48 elliott uses Windows? 04:06:51 yes 04:07:23 itidus21, so, working on Human 2.0 to try to make that possible? 04:07:41 write once, read never! 04:08:08 Sgeo: no 04:08:18 itidus21, suppose that there's a bug... 04:08:27 coppro: 99% of the new programs i write are haskell 04:08:32 coppro: i don't program much right now 04:08:34 sometimes i program lots 04:08:34 humm 04:08:38 sometimes i don't program much at all 04:08:44 but when i do it's usually patching someone else's code or haskell 04:08:49 ah ok 04:08:50 and i toy about in haskell a bit 04:08:56 Sgeo: well.. 04:08:58 I keep wondering how you retain all this stuff 04:08:58 i have also answered a lot of haskell questions on stack overflow :p 04:09:15 coppro: it's been like... 3, 4 years since i started programming haskell 04:09:29 and also i used to hang out in #haskell a lot (but i don't recommend doing this any more) 04:10:04 #haskell is interesting now if you can answer all the newbie questions that come up quickly, identify and ignore terrible stuff, and like talking to people who know haskell a lot, but not so much if you're not already experienced 04:10:25 O, that is what they do? 04:10:41 my problem is that (like everyone else) i want to explain things *my* way 04:10:49 and i got sick of fighting about which explanation is best 04:10:49 elliott: actually, Conduit doesn't look so bad 04:10:57 The question of how to make (IO x) into (x) is very common by people who do not understand Haskell 04:11:05 coppro: yes. (conduit is wrong in several respects) 04:11:08 (but other libraries are wrong too) 04:11:28 (the main reason not to learn conduit now is because there are like 4 libraries for doing roughly the same thing right now) 04:11:48 ah 04:16:20 does anyone know of a server that just does ssh authentication but isn't tied to unix users 04:16:29 and instead of starting a shell just starts a command with the info it got or such 04:16:37 so it has a separate user/password/pubkey database 04:17:43 "The question of whether Machines Can Think... is about as relevant as the question of whether Submarines Can Swim." ~ Edsger W. Dijkstra 04:18:39 Yes, it does seem a similar kind of question 04:19:24 ooh this one more edgy 04:19:52 "Don't blame me for the fact that competent programming, as I view it as an intellectual possibility, will be too difficult for "the average programmer" you must not fall into the trap of rejecting a surgical technique because it is beyond the capabilities of the barber in his shop around the corner." ~ Edsger W. Dijkstra 04:19:57 elliott: unless you suggest me a good library to use ima go do something stupid 04:20:14 have fun 04:20:27 the great thing about stupid things in haskell is that they break :P 04:20:38 imo you should model the bot as String -> String and use unsafePerformIO internally!!! 04:20:51 how many exclamation marks do i need to convey sarcasm!!!!!!! 04:21:22 42 04:21:51 elliott: yes, but the question about the breakage is where they break 04:21:52 too many 04:22:03 9 04:22:23 I have now added support for timers and time limits to Internet Quiz Engine. 04:22:30 specifically, do they break before or after I am done with them 04:24:39 before usually 04:28:07 well yes 04:28:15 but I mean specifically when will I encounter that :) 04:28:26 so why do you recommend against conduit, then? 04:29:31 Do you like "abstract nonsense"? 04:29:59 i use conduit 04:30:05 but I wouldn't learn it at the stage I imagine you're at 04:30:28 -!- david_werecat has joined. 04:30:33 Do you like Internet Quiz Engine? 04:31:27 humm 04:31:45 elliott: I'm slightly more advanced than you seem to think. 04:31:53 elliott: it really does not look all that hard. 04:31:58 it isn't that hard 04:32:08 I would still not recommend learning it 04:32:17 especialyl since you'll need to use supporting libraries to pull off an irc bot effectively with it 04:32:21 *especially 04:32:42 zzo38: can your question be modelled in lambda calculus? 04:32:43 -!- TheJimmyJames has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:33:00 itidus21: Probably not. 04:33:23 i either say yes or no or nothing 04:34:06 Who is TheJimmyJames? 04:35:06 "Do you like Internet Quiz Engine? Yes" becomes "You like Internet Quiz engine."; "Do you like Internet Quiz Engine? No" becomes "You don't like Internet Quiz engine."; "Do you like Internet Quiz Engine?" remains "Do you like Internet Quiz Engine?" 04:35:13 obviously im insane 04:36:14 hi 04:36:15 Obviously most people in this channel (myself included) are somewhat insane 04:36:22 hi 04:37:14 elliott: what sort of supporting libraries? Now that I look, the obvious thing seems to connect TCP =$= parser =$= bot logic =$= formatter =$= TCP 04:37:28 writing the parser will be a pain without e.g. attoparsec-conduit 04:37:31 formatter will be easier but 04:37:48 i already have irc stuff for conduit written but i've been perennially terrible in getting it to hackage 04:37:56 elliott: What do you think of O_DIRECT? 04:38:13 shachaf: what about it 04:38:18 elliott: therefore it doesn't exist qed 04:38:28 elliott: is it the devil. 04:38:39 idk 04:40:55 Selector strings are quiz.menu*a (type 1) for the Internet Quiz Engine main menu, and textfile/miscellaneous/onlinequiz.txt (type 0) for the comparison chart 04:42:50 Have you looked at the quiz editor on OkCupid and/or played any quizzes on OkCupid? Internet Quiz Engine actually has many similarities 04:50:26 -!- elliott has changed nick to elliott_. 04:50:28 Internet Quiz Engine is free and open source software, it is written in C, it has no advertising or other annoyances, supports time limits, has versatile questions/responses/results, no registration is required, supports skipping conditional questions, can upload/download the quiz files, and uses low bandwidth. 04:50:59 thanks 04:51:38 Some of these features do not exist in any of the other programs I have reviewed. 04:52:46 you are like the linux torvalds of quiz engines 04:53:20 @remember itidus21 you are like the linux torvalds of quiz engines 04:53:20 Good to know. 04:54:33 What does that mean? 04:55:06 the meaning is largely subjective 04:55:29 Well, Linux is also free and open source software written in C, but is that what you meant? 04:55:45 kmc: You should've used `addquote. :-( 04:56:00 shachaf: Then you use `addquote if that is what you want 04:56:02 what evs 04:56:12 i don't know 04:56:15 i just like "linux torvalds" 04:56:17 > w/e 04:56:18 w / e 04:56:23 > o . o 04:56:24 Couldn't match expected type `a -> b' 04:56:24 against inferred type `Simple... 04:56:35 > f . f 04:56:36 No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (f b)) 04:56:36 arising from a use of `M6020407245... 04:57:17 lmao.. i just got that 04:59:07 `addquote you are like the linux torvalds of quiz engines 04:59:10 845) you are like the linux torvalds of quiz engines 05:02:56 Hello, this is Linux Torvalds, and I pronounce Linus as Linus. 05:05:26 elliptic: Try AuNO instead of FeDK! 05:05:57 s/elliptic/elliott/ 05:06:04 gold > iron; norway > denmark; qed 05:06:47 elliott_: alternatively, just hackage your goddamn IRC stuff ;) 05:06:52 elliott_: also wake ais up 05:06:59 I need to complain to him 05:07:05 shachaf: what's auno 05:07:08 The source codes for Internet Quiz Engine is 9KB; I don't know how long the codes of the other programs are since I have not seen them, but I guess most of them are probably longer and less efficient, because they want to add advertising and all sorts of HTML stuff, and some people write bad codes in general, and other reasons 05:07:08 @ask ais523 wake up 05:07:09 Consider it noted. 05:07:17 elliott_: gold; norway 05:07:26 I have Periodic Table of Elements on the wall in my bedroom 05:07:38 shachaf: ok 05:07:39 zzo38: Is Internet Quiz Engine written in C? 05:07:57 shachaf: Yes. You can even look at the source-codes if you want to. 05:08:01 Where? 05:08:32 From quiz.menu*d 05:08:51 $ wget quiz.menu*d 05:08:51 ERROR:Word not found 05:08:55 --2012-05-26 22:08:48-- http://quiz.menu*d/ 05:08:55 Resolving quiz.menu*d (quiz.menu*d)... failed: Name or service not known. 05:08:55 wget: unable to resolve host address `quiz.menu*d' 05:09:03 Wrong! 05:09:28 Try using this command instead: echo 'quiz.menu*d' | nc zzo38computer.cjb.net 70 > inquiz.w 05:09:41 You might need nc -q -1 depending on the version of netcat 05:11:16 Uh-oh. 05:11:24 Undefined behavior when you call inquiz with argc==0 ! 05:11:50 shachaf: True, but it is never called that way. 05:12:02 Untrue! 05:12:06 I just called it that way. 05:12:11 Actually, no! 05:12:18 You get an error! 05:12:20 I made a mistake. 05:12:28 But the error calls printf with %s, NULL. 05:12:37 O, yes. 05:13:05 It does. Well, still, it will never be called that way when properly installed. 05:16:25 The program is not meant to be run from the command-line; it won't work that way. It should run from a gopher server with the argument specifying the name of the configuration file, and the environment variable SELECTOR containing the selector string. 05:16:41 SELECTOR=hi 05:18:29 zzo38: just as a good bitmap renderer is best shown off with a landscape photo or a renaissance painting, the proof is in the pudding so to speak 05:18:34 You can, of course, set the SELECTOR using the command-line (you need export as well), but it doesn't really work well that way. Still, if you want to, you can make up a shell script or something else that sets SELECTOR and then formats the choices on the screen for local mode 05:18:51 a quiz engine lives off a diet of good quizzes 05:19:39 itidus21: True; currently there are only two files other than the example file, and that is why I ask you to add some if you have anything to add 05:20:55 a motivated individual i am not 05:21:35 but its easier on my brains than most other topics 05:21:37 Ah. Well, when I have some to add, I can add it myself; but usually I have none, so other people can add some instead if they can write some to add. 05:23:11 so the atom of the quiz is a multiple choice question, right? 05:23:23 itidus21: Yes. 05:27:05 The fictional city of Midgar and Pacman were both inspired by this: a)chocolate b)pasta c)pizza d)mushrooms 05:27:36 I dislike mushrooms. chocolate,pasta,pizza can be good. 05:27:57 monqy: "gasp" 05:28:05 i know it's easy.. and maybe even a little dumb.. but that is the greatest quiz question the world has ever seen 05:28:08 shachaf: gasp 05:28:44 itidus21: what's the answer ? 05:29:08 i'll provide pictures! 05:29:14 e)all of the above 05:29:16 itidus21: Well, it is a valid question which can be included in a quiz file if you want to, but a single question is not so good. Ask if you don't understand how. 05:29:43 Is it a pizza with a slice cut out? 05:30:00 heres midgar: http://cdn.dualshockers.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/midgar.jpg 05:30:16 monqy: what about::::::: 05:30:20 mushroom pizza? 05:30:23 I don't know Midgar 05:30:31 shachaf: ew, mushrooms!!! 05:30:35 shachaf: O, yes, pizza can have mushrooms on it too 05:30:35 why so dark 05:30:36 if you look at the picture then you know it 05:30:51 it looks like a pasta 05:30:54 am I right ? 05:31:00 tes 05:31:01 yes 05:31:07 yaey 05:31:08 zzo38: mushroom pasta?? 05:31:09 monqy: What kind of pasta? 05:31:16 yes 05:31:25 monqy: do you like clouds? 05:31:29 yes 05:31:33 HOW ABOUT: MUSHROOM CLOUDS?? 05:31:37 :'( 05:31:49 you've checkmated me!! 05:31:51 shachaf: Maybe, but what I mean by "What kind of pasta?", like, spaghetti, tortellini, bowtie pasta, short pasta, etc 05:32:06 monqy: Do you like 5-HT agonists? 05:32:06 shachaf: http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs29/f/2008/106/a/4/Mario_Mushroom_Cloud_by_shadowmcr.jpg 05:32:20 shachaf: what's that 05:32:21 kmc does, right? 05:32:24 monqy: Ask kmc. 05:32:26 truly the internet has everything 05:32:39 you can't outthink it 05:32:41 kmc: what's a 5-ht antagonists 05:33:07 he said agonist not antagonist 05:33:17 monqy: Actually I mean 5-HT_2A agonists. 05:33:19 kmc: what's a 5-ht agonists 05:33:28 kmc: what's a 5-ht-2a agonists 05:34:13 i know it's not a typo cos i remember there was this guy in a chatroom named agonistic 05:35:51 what's agonism 05:37:05 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:37:30 madbrr: Ask kmc. 05:39:17 reading the bible testament 05:39:19 this is a gem 05:39:42 if you sell it, will you get money ? 05:39:49 I hear gems do that 05:39:50 i read the bible testament once 05:40:03 monqy: You can sell 5-HT_2A agonists for money. 05:40:06 But it's usually illegal. :-( 05:40:12 D: 05:40:20 I still don't know what those are !! 05:40:26 Ask kmc. 05:40:32 i do, after i asked kmc 05:40:55 except i didn't ask kmc 05:42:44 @tell ion 178460 games for hugeterm: 103206x Sebi, 8951x KiloByte, 8081x heteroy, 4165x Johan, 3489x ion 05:42:45 Consider it noted. 05:42:55 @tell ion you are one of the most prolific hugetermers ever. cease your evil. 05:42:55 Consider it noted. 05:43:09 hugeterm 05:43:23 is that like a hugepage :'( 05:48:36 "Tux Paint was designed in such a way that the user does not need to understand the underlying operating system or how to deal with files. 05:49:29 -!- aloril has joined. 05:53:16 bwahah 06:05:50 elliott_, have you seen Codelink? It's apparently a free (not sure if as in beer or speech) hollywood hacking game 06:06:07 no 06:07:13 I.. think it's online multiplayer too 06:09:06 "Goonies never say die!" (on the about page) 06:09:16 Well, that really speaks to the professionalism of the author 06:09:25 hi 06:10:09 Joy, ads 06:11:16 hey 06:11:28 "Attempting to access game content from any means other than the Codelink Game itself will result in a server ban for life." 06:11:48 "Only one account can be active per IP address." 06:12:08 hi 06:12:40 Don't make an account if someone's looking over your shoulders, the password fields don't obscure the password 06:12:50 hi 06:12:59 sounds like a good game 06:13:40 I don't even want to do my typical "crap password" routine, those are still too valuable for me to trust to this place 06:13:56 crapper password 06:14:04 What is your opinion about minimum wage? 06:14:36 Sgeo: do squarelos/robin 06:14:45 monqy will be proud 06:14:49 yes 06:15:22 -!- madbrr has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 06:15:53 I am against minimum wage. 06:15:57 ok 06:23:35 ...why is an email client in the hardware section? 06:23:52 yes 06:24:14 * Sgeo connects to 0.128.0.1 06:25:31 I'll play with it later 06:25:49 I think the only tutorial is a video tutorial 06:41:11 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:57:39 -!- asiekierka has joined. 07:02:32 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:02:51 -!- sebbu has joined. 07:02:51 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 07:02:51 -!- sebbu has joined. 07:27:21 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:37:47 -!- PatashuXantheres has joined. 07:40:29 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 07:41:22 PatashuXantheres: You should name my branch! 07:57:05 -!- pikhq has joined. 07:57:14 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 08:29:40 What is your branch a branch of 08:30:09 elliott_: Crawlliott 08:30:31 that was completely useless, I appreciate it 08:30:42 what do you want from me 08:31:23 eliots-crawl 08:37:42 Elliott's Crawl II: a branch of no name 08:42:17 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 08:42:31 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:43:26 ignoring my previous one 08:44:01 Being Not So Much A Derivative As An Improvement Upon Crawl. 08:45:45 fungot? 08:45:46 itidus21: not giving up it's time slot do? interpret esolangs? 08:50:06 crawl_r6527 08:50:45 Super Crawl 08:52:26 hi 08:54:50 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:55:04 A strange occurance by which one attempts to eat a tomato raw rather than use it in fish burgers 08:55:43 oops 08:56:42 awfully bitter the tomato 08:57:25 its amazing how good the sauces made from them taste 08:57:58 i read that as "the tornado" 08:58:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:58:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 08:58:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:58:34 no Phantom_Hoover evaporate into sun 08:58:57 no 09:00:08 no 09:00:10 Phantom_Hoover 09:00:13 evaporate into sun 09:00:28 a bit of salt, butter and toast and they're the greatest food ever invented 09:00:36 what, bread? 09:00:52 tomatos(tomatoes) 09:01:02 did you know: I know the man who invented tomatoes? 09:01:07 lesser-known monqy fact 09:01:11 he's old now, of course 09:01:27 but on their own they're rubbish 09:01:41 monqy: was it you 09:01:47 yes 09:01:47 im old 09:01:51 aw 09:01:56 yay 09:01:57 you don't have to be! 09:02:06 it means you can wear oldman clothes 09:02:15 i love oldman clothes 09:02:24 when i was young i could not wear oldman clothes 09:02:25 but now i can 09:02:29 this is all the reason i need 09:02:30 to be old 09:02:40 mmmm 09:02:57 i think i need to find visual context to oldman clothes 09:03:06 off to google 09:03:38 aha 1)cardigans worn with shirts 09:04:03 very stylish ! 09:04:14 oldmans have all the luck 09:04:19 good thing i am an oldman 09:04:51 sportscoats 09:05:15 oldmans luck strikes again 09:05:58 linus style polo shirts 09:06:13 *linux 09:07:01 i don't know if that counts as a subverted trope :-D 09:07:06 -!- pikhq has joined. 09:07:08 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:07:35 -!- aloril has joined. 09:07:39 oldmans are very subversive I'll have you know 09:08:05 and this... http://www.plefka.net/images/GrandpaChair.gif you get to wear all these things on comfy chairs 09:08:25 get that creepo kid out of my face!! 09:08:28 stop looking at me!! 09:08:36 `quote monqy.*stare 09:08:38 monqy: it's you monqy 09:08:43 it's you 09:08:43 in the past 09:08:44 349) my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup 09:08:45 empty eye sockets 09:08:48 no 09:08:49 wrong quote 09:08:51 `quote many eyes 09:08:55 590) Dear god stop staring at me. no never monqy is always staring at everyone. it takes many eyes to do this but I manage He is an inspiration to us all. 09:09:20 ohh 09:09:27 apparently the kids eyes are transparent 09:09:35 is he a ghost 09:09:37 am i a ghost 09:09:38 in the past 09:09:41 yes 09:09:51 oops 09:09:56 designed for display on a white background 09:09:56 yes 09:10:01 no itidus21 09:10:02 you "ruined it" 09:10:13 it's "ruined" 09:10:43 excellent deduction itidus21 ! 09:10:51 not quite.. the very idea that they would leave the eyes transparent itself is quite creepy 09:11:03 im creeped 09:11:25 they could play some kind of fire animation behind them 09:11:39 creepy 09:12:52 then you should avoid this https://ssl.catalog.com/~pennviewvisuals.biz/store/images/Grandpa%20&%20Bradley.jpg 09:13:01 im creeped 09:13:43 ok ill try and get back to the topic 09:14:01 -!- oonbotti has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:14:26 no don't 09:15:06 so theres those woolen tops with the boring patterns you get to wear.. the flat-coloured tracksuits, the flanelette shirts 09:15:35 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:15:50 the berets, the slippers 09:16:50 thick glasses, and a pipe 09:17:26 do i get to wear a toupee, or am I too old for that 09:17:29 -!- nortti has joined. 09:17:32 does my pipe blow bubbles 09:18:23 yes 09:18:52 yaey 09:36:24 -!- derdon has joined. 09:44:44 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 09:46:30 -!- rszeno has joined. 09:47:06 hi everybody 09:47:16 hi 09:48:16 hi elliott_ 09:48:20 hi 09:49:42 i'm curios, what do you think about this "Haskell Curry proposed combinatory logic as a logica universalis, but it ran into inconsistency problems.  (I'm trying to use fuzzy-probabilistic truth values to get around that problem, but that's a different topic.)" 09:50:04 i'm not sure what you mean by it 09:50:28 is not my statement, somebody else 09:50:32 if the point is that "combinatory logic is tc" then yes sure 09:50:40 i don't know what the fuzzy stuff is about, sounds like nonsense 09:51:07 yes, this is my opinion too 09:51:31 i mean sure fuzzy logic is a thing, i have no idea how it relates to the consistency of a computational system interpreted as a logic at all though 09:52:16 imo is no connection, are two different formlisms 09:52:59 are few other things there, http://geniferology.blogspot.com/ 09:53:15 unification - the calculus of concepts 09:54:01 hmm, AGI and an aforementioned statement about formal logic that makes no sense 09:54:05 my quackery meter just exploded 09:54:42 same feeling here 09:55:09 the pictures are pretty, though! 09:55:57 probably are from some books 09:56:06 nah, i mean the software ones 09:56:09 http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mWGkAr1Xo5Y/TH3kkjFPUjI/AAAAAAAAAag/O_IrFTLIagA/s1600/dannhyperassociativemap.png like this 09:57:46 they have some software, http://code.google.com/p/genifer/ 09:58:09 -!- nortti_ has joined. 09:58:24 http://code.google.com/p/genifer/source/browse/haskell/Genifer.lhs yep, sure is a unification algorithm 10:02:00 hard for me to read haskell now, :) i didn't use it last two years at all 10:05:36 i can't separate latex from haskell, :) 10:06:29 there's more latex than haskell there :p 10:07:33 -!- nortti_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:07:34 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 10:07:41 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:07:49 -!- PatashuXantheres has changed nick to Patashu. 10:11:42 i'll show him quackery 10:11:54 `quote itidus 10:11:57 446) to assume that someone can be described by a rule without exception... is to assume they are omnipotent for instance stones are omnipotent, as they don't do anything, without exception \ 469) monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly \ 470) itidus20: i saw a dancing cgi skeleton named malaria. i danced and played with him. 10:12:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:13:07 `quote 446 10:13:10 446) to assume that someone can be described by a rule without exception... is to assume they are omnipotent for instance stones are omnipotent, as they don't do anything, without exception 10:13:18 ah right 10:15:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:16:38 so i'm right when i say that genifer blog is a nonsense from begining to end? 10:17:42 rszeno: oh im just trying to show that i am a quack. 10:18:11 i am otherwise clueless 10:18:21 rszeno: most of it looks like nonsense to me 10:18:29 there is some stuff that makes sense but nothing of particular value 10:18:35 don't lose any sleep over understanding it :p 10:20:23 this look like a new religion, is annoying 10:21:24 rszeno: probably he has lots of mental problems. 10:21:50 :) 10:22:33 -!- elliott_ has left. 10:28:29 many of the posts says "posted by YKY" .. and this is the profile of YKY http://www.blogger.com/profile/15037419974603456698 10:29:36 is the leader of the group 10:29:42 under his interests is life extension 10:29:50 wikipedia defines life extension as: Life extension science, also known as anti-aging medicine, experimental gerontology, and biomedical gerontology, is the study of slowing down or reversing the processes of aging to extend both the maximum and average lifespan. 10:30:43 like, whats with his ridiculous pic.. who does he think he is :P 10:30:48 a little napoleon, imo 10:31:40 ok ok NOW look heer :o http://cybernetic1.blogspot.com.au/ 10:32:02 posted by YKY "I was locked up in a mental hospital for ~3 weeks, " 10:32:31 i try two years ago to join the group but i give up when somebody said that YKY 'decide everything' 10:32:39 yes, he has been in a mental hospital!! 10:33:03 i wander why they release him 10:33:24 and his interest is extending lifespan 10:33:35 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:33:45 -!- asiekierka has joined. 10:42:48 -!- Vorpal has joined. 10:42:50 well, i am not typical of this channel at all. and my own journals are a bit off the wall kind of like yky i suppose 10:43:14 but, i can admit i'm odd 10:43:52 i mean, i don't understand the topics of this channel. 10:46:01 i think i'm odd too, :) 10:46:15 -!- elliott_ has joined. 10:46:24 kmc: Wow, I search for a urxvt problem and get a mosh issue opened by you. 10:46:29 and i don't think mr yky understands his own topics either. 10:46:50 Are you still talking about that silly blog? 10:47:39 elliott_: i made the fascinating discovery that the guy who runs it has spent time in a mental hospital 10:47:40 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 10:47:42 -!- pikhq has joined. 10:47:54 So have I. 10:48:00 oh 10:48:08 thats also fasinctating 10:49:10 yes, but you didn't make a major simplification in the unification algo published in AIMA, :) 10:49:19 But I could!!!! 10:49:25 And THEN where would we be? 10:50:11 the point is that your could make sense, this guy just collect words from some books to impress people 10:50:37 rszeno: i think what he is doing is thinking aloud to himself via a blog.. 10:51:18 Why do you care? 10:51:53 some people from his group are really nice and have potential but ... 10:52:26 one of my friends told me about this 10:53:09 honestly i think he is as nuts as me.. 10:53:10 i don't really care, i ask to be sure that i'm not mad, :) 10:53:39 and if you saw some of my absurd rants you would think thats cause for concern 10:55:18 if you show me one i promise i will tell you my opinion, honestly, :) 10:55:51 A strange occurance by which one attempts to eat a tomato raw rather than use it in fish burgers awfully bitter the tomato its amazing how good the sauces made from them taste 10:56:25 i think that the most efficient way to code is to magically never have to refer back to previously written code. in addition it should all be written in shorthand. 10:58:19 first is difficult to translate for me, i miss some details, but look like a matter of taste, nothing weird, imo 10:58:28 haha... 10:59:27 anyway, it's amazing what the imagination will come up with to replace lack of knowledge of a subject 10:59:30 second, i'm curios how can be done 11:00:33 new code, not refering means not reusing, that means reinventing over and over again? 11:00:53 i was talking bullshit, you see 11:01:09 :), nice 11:01:24 it is quite often that people say things which are wrong 11:01:48 yes, i'm doing this too 11:02:32 basically i don't understand mathematics and YKY certainly doesn't either 11:02:42 -!- elliott_ has left. 11:05:27 i try to know what i know, :) i think most of my life i learn, :) 11:09:41 -!- oonbotti has joined. 11:16:56 -!- Taneb has joined. 11:25:44 Hello 11:27:10 hello Taneb 11:32:58 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:43:18 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:43:45 -!- asiekierka has joined. 11:48:09 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 11:48:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:52:46 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:53:11 -!- HackEgo has quit (*.net *.split). 11:53:11 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (*.net *.split). 11:53:11 -!- Zetro has quit (*.net *.split). 11:53:11 -!- mtve has quit (*.net *.split). 11:53:19 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 12:01:22 Installing an old game: 12:01:28 Reccomended disk space: 50 MP 12:01:31 * MB 12:01:33 4294966277 MB available 12:02:11 50 MB is quite much, too. 12:02:44 It's an ambitious 1997 game 12:02:53 -!- pikhq has joined. 12:02:58 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:06:35 1997.. 12:06:51 That was before I lived in Australia 12:07:22 i love how posting one word with a trailing ellipsis convey drama 12:10:10 is it on this list? http://www.csoon.com/top10097.htm 12:10:32 No...! 12:10:51 "Games released late in the year will have less votes. " whatever that means 12:10:56 ok! 12:12:57 -!- Zetro has joined. 12:16:11 -!- HackEgo has joined. 12:16:11 -!- mtve has joined. 12:21:35 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:38:23 -!- MSleep has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:47:31 oh no i bumped into an anarcho-capitalist on reddit 12:47:56 'oh no' 12:48:17 this is awful 12:51:12 anarcho-capitalism is the second worst kind of anarchy 12:51:18 Also, 12:51:20 @ping 12:51:20 pong 12:51:23 Oh good 12:51:28 Taneb, what's the worst 12:51:36 Anarcho-I'm in charge now 12:51:57 cf. Doctor Horrible's Singalong Blog 12:52:13 speaking of anarchism have you heard of country named Free Territory? 12:52:22 I have not 12:52:29 no 12:52:40 is it where people go to escape uk anti-free speech 12:53:40 According to my high speed wikipedia reading, it was disestablished in 1921 12:54:20 by soviet union claiming it was ruled by dictatorship 12:54:51 (Free Territory was only communistic contry that was really communist) 12:57:41 it was anarcho-communistic state that had freedom of speech, press, assembly and unions and real democracy 13:03:52 `ls /dev/dsp 13:03:55 ​/dev/dsp 13:04:15 `cat /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp 13:04:17 cat: /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp: No such file or directory 13:04:21 `run cat /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp 13:04:25 bash: /dev/dsp: Permission denied 13:05:02 Gregor: why are you running bash? 13:05:24 Because bash is better than you. 13:06:08 it is slow and bloated. why don't just use ash? 13:07:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:07:41 h 13:13:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:13:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 13:13:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:20:12 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 13:21:37 I'm... getting random reboots. 13:21:41 No idea why. 13:21:57 Phantom__Hoover, is your computer on fire? 13:22:04 No. 13:22:10 I've got no idea 13:22:22 It's near an open window to a garden, maybe a fly's doing it to mess with me. 13:22:33 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:22:37 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 13:22:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:28:09 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:28:23 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:50:13 -!- rszeno has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 13:59:07 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:01:22 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 14:06:08 -!- MSleep has joined. 14:12:07 -!- aloril has joined. 14:16:50 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:29:03 -!- aloril has joined. 14:32:14 -!- AlexeyShentyakov has joined. 14:33:59 -!- AlexeyShentyakov has left. 14:34:36 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:43:08 -!- MDuck has joined. 14:43:49 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 14:43:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:44:11 -!- MSleep has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:47:23 -!- aloril has joined. 14:56:14 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: leaving). 14:56:31 -!- nortti has joined. 15:05:39 @tell elliott I haven’t actually played that many games, i simply did some stat rerolling on a friend’s puny game server whose stats got merged to Sequell later. :-P 15:05:40 Consider it noted. 15:06:47 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:19:18 -!- aloril has joined. 15:27:58 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:28:04 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:00:27 LOL 16:00:37 the heap in OS X is executable 16:01:05 even if you mprotect it to readonly 16:02:39 obviously it has to be, exploits would stop working if they changed that 16:07:11 elliott: Also, how would you manage state in an IRC bot that way? An IORef? 16:12:06 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:14:26 oh I am bad at things 16:15:29 like terribad at things 16:19:49 -!- Case1 has joined. 16:28:14 -!- gotama has joined. 16:30:20 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:37:03 Hey nortti, isn't zsh great? 16:37:41 Phantom__Hoover: I have never used. I'll try it out and say what I think about it later 16:39:14 hmm. seems to be more memory hungy than busybox ash 16:39:54 I like zsh. 16:41:15 I also like https://github.com/robbyrussell/oh-my-zsh 16:41:15 hmm. pretty nice shell but I kinda like busybox ash more. I can sometimes notice little lag with tab completition 16:41:32 It is in fact possible to implement a fully-functioning HTTP server using only shell builtins. 16:41:51 And that's barely scratching the surface. 16:42:00 it has something like nc builtin? 16:42:05 It doesn't have a man page; it has an index for seventeen seperate man pages. 16:43:03 is there some big advantage over ash not counting user friendlines? 16:43:36 also what does 3 in 3:~% prompt mean 16:43:49 It does have the 'zshall' man page, which is a concatenation of the others. 16:44:15 That's cheating :P 16:44:25 Oh, mustn't forget zftp. 16:45:00 zsh: command not found: zftp 16:45:27 Yes; I'm taking certain liberties here, because all this stuff /is/ modularised and has to be loaded first. 16:45:38 It does still come with the shell, though. 16:46:20 Phantom__Hoover: do you know what 3 mean in 3:~% prompt 16:46:50 No, seeing as nobody using zsh uses that prompt. 16:46:57 You need to run the configuration to get a zshrc! 16:47:17 how do I run it? 16:47:24 You haven't tab-completed until you've tab-completed with spelling correction and keyboard-navigable menus. 16:47:58 I don't remember; try zconfigure and obvious abbreviations 16:48:50 zc ^I lists zcat zcip zcompile 16:49:36 *zc^I 16:50:26 hmm. I kinda dislike zsh's tab completition 16:51:19 ok shell and at least better than bash but I prefer ash 16:54:19 I'd rand it above ksh but just below busybox ash 16:54:38 I love being able to type /u/s/d/zsh/RE and have that completed to /usr/share/doc/zsh-beta/README. 16:55:31 nortti: Did you try oh-my-zsh? 16:55:38 ion: no 16:58:30 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:58:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Changing host). 16:58:32 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:00:52 well it is kinda like tcsh for me. I could probably learn to love it but for now it feels strange 17:16:57 -!- madbr has joined. 17:25:15 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:26:26 -!- david_werecat has joined. 17:42:13 -!- gotama has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/). 17:43:36 hm... how do you handle interrupts in Forth? 17:44:06 what kind of interrupts? 17:44:30 isn't that something you only do in dos programs? 17:44:40 nortti, hardware interrupts? 17:44:50 madbr, I'm targeting a 6802 here... 17:44:56 Vorpal: what are you programming? 17:44:59 presumably you just write pointers to the interrupt vector 17:44:59 ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 17:45:03 same way as you do in any other language 17:45:08 @messages 17:45:08 elliott said 17h 51m 2s ago: glogbot's stupid timezone is UTC 17:45:08 elliott_ asked 12h 37m 53s ago: wake up 17:45:16 ais523, good point 17:45:18 vorpal: You're lucky you're not writing assembly then :D 17:45:28 madbr, well I might need some 17:45:58 elliott said 17h 51m 2s ago: glogbot's stupid timezone is UTC <-- hm? UTC doesn't sound stupid to me 17:46:17 Vorpal: what are you programming? <-- what do you mean? 17:46:20 I don't think there is any problem to handle interrupts in Forth 17:46:28 atm I'm trying to figure out this Forth implementation 17:46:29 Vorpal: what kind of program 17:46:38 which means I'm not coding anything specific just yet 17:47:19 Vorpal: there is no standardised way. you can write to memory locations with ! 17:47:22 -!- |evilliopttic_PA has joined. 17:47:24 <|evilliopttic_PA> hello 17:47:27 <|evilliopttic_PA> hi ais523 17:47:54 nortti, well yeah 17:48:00 hi elliott 17:48:03 <|evilliopttic_PA> rude 17:48:04 <|evilliopttic_PA> 17:45:58: elliott said 17h 51m 2s ago: glogbot's stupid timezone is UTC <-- hm? UTC doesn't sound stupid to me 17:48:07 <|evilliopttic_PA> you're the one who called it stupid 17:48:23 <|evilliopttic_PA> er 17:48:25 <|evilliopttic_PA> rather 17:48:26 <|evilliopttic_PA> ais is 17:48:27 |evilliopttic_PA, uh? 17:48:27 <|evilliopttic_PA> 23:53:50: 00:51 that'll be UTC not glogbot-stupid-timezone 17:48:29 ah 17:48:36 |evilliopttic_PA: what is with that nick 17:48:47 <|evilliopttic_PA> i blended with a bunch of good crawl players 17:48:54 <|evilliopttic_PA> now i'm 100% abomination 17:48:54 it is annoying to type |. That involves altgr 17:49:31 (altgr-<, where < is to the left of z) 17:49:47 shift + key left of 1 on my kb 17:50:01 \ is worse (altgr + key left of 1) 17:50:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:50:15 <|evilliopttic_PA> /nick \evilliopttic_PA 17:50:22 elliott: well I'm awake now 17:50:23 madbr, shift-(key left of 1) gives me ½. That key in question without shift gives me § 17:50:24 madbr: what kind of keybord do you have? 17:50:32 <|evilliopttic_PA> ais523: i'm not 17:50:35 canadian french 17:50:39 this keyboard doesn't have a key to the left of 1 17:50:40 madbr, \ is altgr-+ where + is right of 0 17:50:44 madbr, Swedish keyboard here 17:50:55 hm altgr-§ is ¶ 17:51:01 didn't know that 17:51:10 fun fact: many Americans don't realise what altgr is for at all 17:51:13 I have finnish keybord wich is exactly the same as swedish 17:51:19 because they don't have enough characters in their alphabets for it to be necessary 17:51:20 yeah 17:51:24 ais: yeah classic :D 17:51:50 ais: that's because they have a messed up way to write all the extra vowels over 5 :D 17:52:02 standard Finnish qwerty keyboard doesn't have any alphabets behind altgr-combo either 17:52:08 err, letters 17:52:11 ais523, for me it is only required to type stuff NOT in Swedish, like \ £ @ $ { [ ] } ~ and so on 17:52:39 and ~ is altgr- and then a space 17:52:46 dead keys are annoying 17:52:56 pretty much the same in the UK, the only keys with an altgr marked on them are | (not |, although I think they produce the same character on Linux) and € 17:53:03 ^ and ` have to be done with dead key + space here 17:53:08 there's a ¬ but it's shift-` 17:53:22 ais523, "| (not |" <-- to me those look the same 17:53:33 Vorpal: I think they're the same position in Unicode, on Linux 17:53:37 hm altgr-e is € 17:53:38 I have to type ~ with dead key+space 17:53:43 they generate different characters on Windows, and on DOS 17:53:50 although different different characters on the two OSes 17:53:56 nortti: altgr + ; here 17:53:57 ais523, so which one is the one with the hole in the middle? 17:54:00 "Standard Finnish" is nowadays the new SFS 5966 "multilingual" one, and it does have letters behind altgr; though not letters used in Finnish, exactly. 17:54:01 hmm, altgr-e is e 17:54:04 is that the same letter? 17:54:17 You should make it send 'е' instead. 17:54:19 ais523, as far as I can tell, without using a hex editor on my IRC log files 17:54:20 they look the same 17:54:33 madbr: I have it as altgr+key two keys right of p 17:54:59 you need altgr on us keyboard to type §¶µ I think 17:55:04 fizzie, how does it differ from the Swedish layout (for the non-altgr parts I mean) 17:55:08 whoa, dude, I can send «» with AltGr-[]! 17:55:11 but these symbols are kinda rare 17:55:19 I was using the Compose key all this time! 17:55:28 shachaf: I have [ as altgr+8 17:55:31 $ od -t x 1 17:55:31 ERROR:Word not found 17:55:31 <|evilliopttic_PA> §§§§ 17:55:32 hmm, altgr-e is e 17:55:34 0000000 68 6d 6d 2c 20 61 6c 74 67 72 2d 65 20 69 73 20 65 17:55:36 shachaf, I can do that with altgr-shift-8 and altgr-shift-9 17:55:41 Vorpal: looks like they are both actual ASCII e's 17:55:41 <|evilliopttic_PA> nortti: your bot prefix is not ideal... 17:55:49 ais523, heh 17:55:53 Vorpal: It doesn't. It only has altgry stuff for Sámi and whatever. 17:55:58 |evilliopttic_PA: suggest something bettet 17:56:00 (apparently, letters do actually pluralise with apostrophe-s in English, which must annoy pedants a lot) 17:56:02 fizzie, heh 17:56:02 <|evilliopttic_PA> § 17:56:12 fizzie, do you use that layout? 17:56:17 shachaf: «» are altgr-zx for me 17:56:30 haha, altgr-8 is [ for me too 17:56:32 ais523, that works too for me. 17:56:36 Vorpal: Means they don't have to print out keyboards with different markings, unless they want to. 17:56:36 hm 17:56:37 even though [ is on my keyboard (not even shifted) 17:56:46 ¹²³€½¾{[]} 17:56:56 fizzie, fair enough 17:57:10 ¡@£$¤¥{[]}\ 17:57:17 ais523, ¤ is shift-4 for me. Utterly useless 17:57:28 Vorpal: Apparently not; this is some random Ubuntu-Finnish thing. E.g. it has ¼ as altgr-§, whereas SFS 5966 has some combining diacritic there. (It has more dead-key diacritics than the usual.) 17:57:41 Vorpal: and why is that a useless character? 17:57:49 I've seen it used as a metasyntactic variable for currency characters before now :) 17:58:00 ais523, yes, and I never ever used it 17:58:04 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:58:18 fizzie, heh 17:58:46 ` is a dead key here, it is shift- 17:58:49 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found 17:58:57 so a lot of spaces required 17:59:15 Oh, I use the undead variant of the Finnish keymap, to be more accurate. 17:59:22 undead? 17:59:35 It makes ´`^~¨ not be dead keys. 17:59:40 ah 17:59:40 fizzie: why are you using zombie keymap 17:59:58 fizzie, I thought that was an xkb setting? 18:00:02 <|evilliopttic_PA> ais523: ps, pls advise how to not kill off crawl characters 18:00:09 I just got in the habit; I mean, it does mean less of useless spaces. 18:00:25 I can always do a compose key if I want to combine a ` with something. 18:00:26 elliott: don't play Crawl? 18:00:34 <|evilliopttic_PA> ais523: who's elliott 18:00:35 fizzie, fair enough 18:00:35 I think that's the only 100% reliable method 18:00:51 oh, elliott's a logreader, and I guess he wants to know the answers to the same questions you do 18:01:02 <|evilliopttic_PA> if i don't then 48 hours will pass and someone else will kill it off instead 18:01:07 <|evilliopttic_PA> which isn't idael 18:01:08 <|evilliopttic_PA> ideal 18:01:09 fizzie, hm how do I write é and è with compose? 18:01:21 compose ' e / compose ` e 18:01:21 <|evilliopttic_PA> anyway i'll just wield all the disto stuff i can find and inscribe things with random letters and place nonsense map exclusions everywhere 18:01:25 <|evilliopttic_PA> and pillar-dance for 100k turns 18:01:34 kmc, I guess it doesn't work when ` is a dead key... 18:01:38 will that actually /help/? 18:01:50 <|evilliopttic_PA> ais523: no, but it'll be entertaining 18:02:00 i don't know then 18:02:18 <|evilliopttic_PA> monqy once wielded a disto weapon and then got berserked by xom (or went berserk himself, I don't recall) in front of a hydra with low HP on a round-robin character 18:02:22 <|evilliopttic_PA> then saved 18:02:23 <|evilliopttic_PA> it survived 18:02:38 hahah 18:03:37 <|evilliopttic_PA> oh it's probably been a week since kmc said that 18:03:38 <|evilliopttic_PA> so about that mongolian folk jazz 18:03:42 I configured this via Gnome's keyboard settings thing; apparently the "Finland" variant there is very close to the new standard, while "Finland classic" is this random old thing, but there's only "Finland classic, eliminate dead keys", not "Finland, eliminate dead keys" available, and I haven't managed to care enough to make the correct thing happen. 18:04:09 |evilliopttic_PA: ? 18:04:21 <|evilliopttic_PA> `pastlog kmc.*in.*talking about 18:04:47 what 18:04:53 fizzie, does the new one have µ on altgr-m? 18:04:53 No output. 18:05:02 I just use the deadkeys variant of the swedish layout, but do all coding in american layout 18:05:16 <|evilliopttic_PA> `pastelogs kmc.*talking about 18:05:20 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:05:21 olsner, that would totally confuse me 18:05:27 (the american layout that is) 18:05:29 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21914 18:06:02 <|evilliopttic_PA> You said something along the lines of "I come in and you're talking about [Crawl], in a few weeks you'll be talking about [obscure thing]". 18:06:09 <|evilliopttic_PA> I felt like I shouldn't let you down.. 18:06:11 <|evilliopttic_PA> s/\.\././ 18:06:12 ah yes 18:06:13 Vorpal: it's nothing compared to trying to code with a swedish keyboard 18:06:27 Vorpal: Both ones have it. The new one has some shift-altgr extra quotes in the number row; the "proper" doublequotes and that « » thing. 18:06:58 olsner, well, I wouldn't know where to find the keys :P 18:07:10 but once you learn it, it is probably better yeah 18:07:21 It also has an em-dash in altgr-shift-m. 18:07:53 -–— 18:08:07 fizzie, rather than º you mean? 18:08:07 hmm, I wonder if figure dash is anywhere on my compose key 18:08:11 not to mention minus sign 18:08:16 there are so many sorts of dash… 18:08:28 18:08:33 Æ’©ÐEªŊĦıJ&ŁºNØÞΩ®§Ŧ↑‘Ł>¥< 18:08:37 ^ shifted altgr alphabet 18:08:56 <|evilliopttic_PA> å∫ç∂´ƒ©˙^∆˚¬µ~øπœ®ß†¨√∑≈¥Ω 18:09:06 why is shift-altgr-s §? I have that non-shifted... 18:09:09 Vorpal: I had to learn most of the american layout before that anyway, e.g. when using a computer before loading the swedish layout, or without it being properly configured 18:09:12 and non-altgr 18:09:17 Vorpal: According to the keymap viewer, it didn't have anything in altgr-shift-m. º is in altgr-shift-5 here. 18:09:20 so it wasn't a big switch to start doing all coding in american 18:09:27 because altgr-s is ß, which is probably more likely for a Brit to type 18:09:36 as it's a letter in German 18:09:39 olsner, that rarely happens nowdays, unless you are installing really obscure distros. :P 18:09:50 olsner, usually it is enough to know where / is 18:09:55 (to do a loadkeys) 18:10:04 I need to know the US layout because public terminals are set to it sometimes 18:10:04 I'm not sure I could really do the US keymap any longer, but I certainly did use to know it well enough. 18:10:14 ais523, yes but on my layout I mean 18:10:29 <|evilliopttic_PA> i use the us keymap it's nice 18:10:37 Vorpal: well, *nowadays* that's not an issue because I actively use the us layout anyway 18:10:46 olsner, heh 18:11:16 speaking of US layout, don't they have that horrible half-height enter key? 18:11:41 yes, but your keyboard doesn't actually change when setting the layout 18:11:48 so you'll keep your full-height enter key 18:11:48 olsner, well duh 18:11:49 Vorpal: not always, just sometimes 18:11:58 olsner, I was talking about in general 18:12:06 ais523, weird 18:12:33 keyboard layouts might be standardised, but keyboard /shapes/ aren't 18:12:46 heh 18:12:57 well, the standard full size PC keyboard is 18:13:00 surely? 18:13:13 laptop keyboards not so much 18:13:45 I'm sure there's a physical layout in *some* standard, but that doesn't mean it'd be any standard that mattered. 18:13:53 heh 18:14:28 They kept messing with the home/end/del/insert/pageup/down area recently, after all. 18:14:37 The backslash key tends to be differ on different keyboards. 18:14:39 <3 the Trine OST 18:14:41 fizzie, yeah, that is quite horrible 18:14:47 Sgeo, trine 1 or trine 2? 18:14:47 There's the double-sized... is it ins or del? 18:14:50 I prefer the backslash to the right of the quotation mark 18:14:56 Vorpal, um... did not know there's a Trine 2 18:14:59 fizzie, what? I haven't seen that variant 18:15:05 And then ones that turn it from 3x2 to 2x3. 18:15:06 Sgeo, -_- 18:15:15 Sgeo, go play it 18:15:16 Vorpal, and I don't think I like the game that much 18:15:20 WHAT? 18:15:20 But the music's gorgeous. 18:15:30 Sgeo, the game is gorgeous and really fun 18:15:45 Vorpal: One of them is double-sized, and the other moved up to the "useless" break/printscr/whatever row. 18:15:50 only complaint I have about trine 2 is that the story was a bit meh 18:16:01 Everything else should just keep the Model M layout. 18:16:17 but since it is a physics based puzzle platformer, the story isn't really the focus 18:16:20 model m's come in several layouts though 18:16:21 If you do not need separate arrow keys from the numpad, use the original PC layout, but with indicator lights on. 18:16:27 fizzie, "useless"? 18:16:44 <|evilliopttic_PA> yes, useless 18:16:50 printscr is quite useful 18:16:51 <|evilliopttic_PA> all the keyboard to the right of the enter key is useless 18:16:52 at least the enter key size and those 102/103/104 key variants vary between model ms 18:16:56 <|evilliopttic_PA> ok the arrow keys are useful 18:16:58 <|evilliopttic_PA> but that's it 18:17:29 |evilliopttic_PA, oh come on, I use del,home,ende,pgup,pgdown a lot 18:17:38 not so much insert 18:17:39 <|evilliopttic_PA> you're wrong and dumb 18:17:47 and prtsc I use rarely 18:17:49 <|evilliopttic_PA> use a keyboard without them for a while yuo'l become much happier 18:17:54 <|evilliopttic_PA> i used to be numpad dependent but then i used laptops 18:17:57 <|evilliopttic_PA> suddenly no numpad use 18:17:58 I actually used scroll lock a few times 18:18:05 Hey, they've released some new Optimus keyboard models. There's an "Optimus Popularis" that looks like a compact-sized variant of the Maximus. 18:18:19 I have used all the keys on the keyboard a lot 18:18:24 It probably still costs absurd units of money. 18:19:36 fizzie, what is the optimus keyboard? 18:19:43 <|evilliopttic_PA> optimal 18:19:56 sounds awesome 18:20:00 Vorpal: That thing where each key is a small OLED display. 18:20:05 oh that 18:21:39 I’d love to have one of these, but they frigging cost like 1000 €. 18:21:44 http://youtu.be/_rzFqEqzhmA 18:21:54 One of their sample pictures is showing a keyboard where enter/shift are Kerplunk and Boom. 18:22:34 <|evilliopttic_PA> im kreplunt *& boom 18:22:37 <|evilliopttic_PA> efijow 18:22:39 ion, I tried using a MS natural keyboard thingy once, was awkward 18:22:40 <|evilliopttic_PA> gs 18:22:43 <|evilliopttic_PA> ion: aww ye datahand 18:22:46 <|evilliopttic_PA> Vorpal: nothing like datahand 18:22:47 I'm sure it is great once you get used to it 18:22:59 <|evilliopttic_PA> ion: i wanna try one of those 18:23:10 <|evilliopttic_PA> so my hands survive past 24 18:25:44 |evilliopttic_PA: Perhaps you should use a custom keyboard made out of a Power Glove. 18:25:56 fizzie, :D 18:26:02 <|evilliopttic_PA> that's my current solution 18:26:30 <|evilliopttic_PA> 19:26 58. vorpal the Firebug (L8 DrFE), worshipper of Vehumet, slain by a killer bee on D:7 on 2008-02-06, with 1385 points after 9149 turns and 3:24:37. 18:26:32 <|evilliopttic_PA> Vorpal: you're crap at crawl 18:28:12 |evilliopttic_PA, I don't *play* crawl 18:28:15 that is someone else 18:28:17 <|evilliopttic_PA> exactly! 18:30:58 <|evilliopttic_PA> ion: The top comments on that video are even worse than average. 18:31:35 <|evilliopttic_PA> Funny.. Such a "modern" and "ergonomic" keyboard still uses the QWERTY layout. Thousands of English words can be typed with only the left hand. Only a few hundred with the right. If you're typing in English, and using QWERTY, then not only will it slow you down, it will fatigue your left hand a hundred times more than your right hand. 18:31:37 <|evilliopttic_PA> oh my god 18:31:45 <|evilliopttic_PA> do they not realise it is literally irrelevant what layout it is 18:31:48 <|evilliopttic_PA> your fingers DON'T MOVE 18:31:55 uh I don't get the point of ['] in Forth? 18:32:02 how does it differ from '? 18:32:22 Btw, i love how the image of the “traditional keyboard layout” in that video is the Amiga layout, complete with the Amiga keys near Space. 18:33:11 ion, yeah it is funny 18:33:31 ion, also one connector on the back of the datahand looked like a serial cable to me 18:34:36 <|evilliopttic_PA> ion: Well, it *is* traditional. 18:37:27 Vorpal: "If you want the execution token of word, write ['] word in compiled code and ' word in interpreted code." ['] parses the name at compilation time, and then compiles to something that pushes the xt. Or some-such. 18:38:11 fizzie, ah 18:38:26 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 18:39:27 I'll take you this way that way which way what way oh way my way her way his way their way its way some way any way 18:39:50 …? 18:40:04 Lyrics from a song 18:40:21 seems like quite stupid lyrics to me 18:40:50 they don't really mean anything sensible 18:41:24 I see a way in which they could 18:41:35 (Especially in context of the rest of the song) 18:42:12 -!- |evilliopttic_PA has left. 18:42:44 I think "take" is being used in a sexual sense 18:43:04 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:45:51 -!- nortti_ has joined. 18:49:23 Phantom__Hoover: by the way why did you ask me about zsh 18:49:35 NO REASON 18:49:50 Sgeo, why were you quoting lyrics 18:49:53 that is a terrible thing 18:50:29 the esoteric song contest was over days ago 18:51:12 I quote lyrics every now and then. 18:51:17 2011-12-18 00:34:41 "Too many fingers / have I got in my hand / I think there happened a creature / an alien creature" -- paraphrasing some Finnish song lyrics. 18:53:17 What song? 18:53:46 -!- monqy has joined. 18:54:57 -!- |evilliopttic_PA has joined. 18:55:29 <|evilliopttic_PA> `pastlog topic.*international hub 18:55:37 2007-05-02.txt:02:04:50: * pikhq has changed the topic to: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or ttp://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0 18:55:43 <|evilliopttic_PA> `pastlog topic.*international hub 18:55:50 2006-08-26.txt:20:21:18: -!- GregorR changed the topic of #esoteric to: the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion, 18:56:02 ion: The one that goes "Liikaa sormia / ompi mulla kädessä / taisi käydä olio / avaruusolio." 18:56:03 -!- |evilliopttic_PA has set topic: the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion,. 18:56:28 <|evilliopttic_PA> monqy: guoess what i gifted you with 18:56:33 ion: http://www.byterapers.scene.org/scene-music.htm "Monta sormee?" 18:57:23 i'm bad at guessing, but it looks awful 18:57:24 monqy: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 18:57:31 <|evilliopttic_PA> congrautlations 18:57:56 |evilliopttic_PA: not bad enough; several of the links may still work 18:58:04 <|evilliopttic_PA> its good enough for me 18:58:08 <|evilliopttic_PA> especially the cut off 18:58:14 okay 18:58:46 -!- |evilliopttic_PA has set topic: It is 2005 and there is time to be the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment. http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 19:01:09 fizzie: File not found :-( 19:02:49 `run uname -a 19:02:52 Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux 19:09:31 Have you made any file for Internet Quiz Engine yet? 19:12:58 what browsers do you (plural) use? 19:13:06 ion: Oh noes, their FTP seems to have borken. Anyway, http://amp.dascene.net/detail.php?detail=modules&view=6513 claims to have it also, but both opencubicplayer and mikmod barf on the XM file, even though 'file' says it looks just fine. 19:16:59 Hey, I have a mirror of my own. 19:17:22 Let me just dump that somewhere. 19:19:18 just don't break it. 7 years bad luck, you see. 19:19:46 ion: http://zem.fi/tmp/byterapers-modules-humorouscollection/ 19:21:17 oerjan: If you make, say, six copies of a mirror, and then break the copies, does it count as 42 years of bad luck, or don't the copies count since in the grand scheme of things you haven't decreased the number of mirrors? 19:23:31 after you break the first mirror, bad luck will ensure the others count for at least 7 years each. 19:23:45 fizzie: Thankes. 19:39:01 nortti_: For web browser I use my own system which is Mozilla-based, although I prefer the command-line 19:39:14 zzo 19:39:37 zzo38: what kind of command line 19:39:58 UNIX command-line is best, although I use the Windows command-line as well. 19:40:48 I like unix command line, TWENEX command like is also pretty good and DOS is ok 19:42:19 DOS is ok? 19:43:05 At one place I sometimes volunteer at, I gave them a computer, and it has FreeDOS. I programmed it for them, in Forth. 19:44:21 zzo38: for what purpose did you program it to them? 19:44:27 However, there is still no printer. Do you know if there is any driver for FreeDOS to cause outputs to LPT1 and so on to be redirected to the USB port? In case, it is USB printer, but it still has to be PCL 19:44:45 nortti_: It is a database program 19:45:03 olsner: well I have used DOS since I was 7 so it has kinda grown on me 19:45:43 Also do you know what TeX distribution works on FreeDOS and includes a DVI->PCL program? 19:46:27 I don't need PostScript, PDF, e-TeX, and so on; I only use Plain TeX. 19:49:13 The computer that I gave to them, I also got it for free myself too, from FreeGeek; it came with Ubuntu and included CRT, keyboard, mouse, speakers. I didn't take the mouse and speakers and the FreeGeek also let me use their blank DVDs to copy FreeDOS so I could install FreeDOS on there too, and then I installed BBL/Abundance. 19:51:05 The license for BBL/Abundance says you can do absolutely anything you want, except military use. 19:51:08 that remind me how I uses FreeDOS as my main os for around a month 19:51:46 (in 2008) 19:58:37 Does any terminal emulator allow you to push scroll lock to prevent the screen from automatically scrolling and make the arrow keys scroll the window? 19:59:17 I think xterm does but I am not surr 20:00:33 I used to use the 4dos command line, it was quite snazzy compared to plain DOS. 20:00:59 All those pretty coloured directory listings and tab-completions and whatnots. 20:01:27 Windows now has tab-completion but they didn't add those other things 20:01:43 Also if I recall correctly 4dos managed to use less memory than command.com. 20:02:25 Also, the Windows tab-completion works differently from the UNIX tab-completion. 20:03:50 4dos had some amount of customization in tab completion, you could list what sort of extensions which command accepted. 20:04:03 4dos.ini: FileCompletion=cd:dirs; unzip:arj zip zoo exe lzh dirs; pkunzip:zip exe dirs; arj:arj a?? exe dirs; lha:lzh exe dirs; zoo:zoo exe dirs 20:05:16 I also seem to have a colordir setting which says "doc txt me 1st" are text documents; the latter presumably for read.me and readme.1st files. 20:05:47 <|evilliopttic_PA> Doctor, text me first. 20:08:40 Oh, this DOS directory is such a mess of mess. There are different console fonts ans whatever here; those .com things that you run and they replace the current font. 20:09:13 (I had some trouble figuring out what "light.com" and "broadway.com" were, based on the name.) 20:10:06 Files with .DOC may sometimes be Microsoft Word documents, although sometimes they are plain text. Although READ.ME and README.1ST are nearly always plain texts, and FILE_ID.DIZ may be a short description of the downloaded archive in plain text format. 20:10:07 -!- |evilliopttic_PA has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:10:49 There once was a BBS system that put their own "downloaded from" ad into each .zip file, in a file called "KALAA&LI.HAA". 20:11:05 That's Finnish for, basically, "FISH&ME.AT". 20:12:39 They really shouldn't modify the ZIP files; they should only read them to check for the existence of a FILE_ID.DIZ file (in the root directory of the ZIP), in my opinion. 20:13:13 They should also check for a ZIP comment and a password. 20:31:19 I have read that booster packs for some card games have a small chance to be entirely rares. TeXnicard supports this using the "n" flag in a deck list. TeXnicard also supports selecting without replacement ("k" flag) and requiring unique selections ("u" flag), but I do not know if any card games use these. Do you know if they do or not? 20:44:34 Do you like arithmetic IF? 20:44:46 -!- Case1 has left. 20:46:03 arimetric IF? 20:46:27 Arithmetic IF, not arimetric IF. 20:47:37 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:48:33 zzo38: I prefer short-circuiting if, it's more generally useful 20:48:45 I prefer call-by-name semantics to call-by-value generally anyway… 20:49:34 This is one possible implementation of a stack-based arithmetic if in C: register_value v=stack_ptr[-3]; int n=v.number; n=-(n<0?2:!n); stack_ptr[-3]=stack_ptr[n]; stack_ptr[n]=v; stack_drop(); stack_drop(); stack_drop(); 20:49:41 -!- coppro has joined. 20:50:01 ais523: That is useful, too, yes. 20:51:02 If you are wondering why this algorithm is so strange, I can tell you, the reason it is like this is for garbage collection to work. 20:55:16 dc doesn't use this but I think the design of dc would work better with the arithmetic if. 20:59:55 -!- MDuck has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:10:39 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:21:11 dc has if? 21:21:54 nortti_: It does have conditional commands, but they aren't very good in my opinion; arithmetic if would be a better design to fit with the rest of dc. 21:22:34 I agree 21:23:32 dc is Turing complete. 21:23:53 Gregor: Yes, I think you are correct. 21:23:55 Its conditional execution is by conditional macro invocation. 21:23:57 I know I'm correct. 21:24:05 Yes that is also correct. 21:24:07 with only one stack? 21:24:14 It has 256 stacks. 21:24:33 it has? I didn't know that 21:24:40 It has 256 arrays and 256 scalar registers. 21:24:48 As well as a stack. 21:25:09 They're not really arrays, they're only accessible as stacks. 21:25:17 At least not by classic dc. 21:26:34 dc also has bignums. 21:26:47 Indeed. 21:30:02 -!- itidus20 has joined. 21:33:30 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:34:48 What kind of image manipulations commands should I include in TeXnicard? Some of my ideas include: convolve, blur, paste, blend, mask, ... 21:37:30 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:38:44 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:39:12 Gregor: The : and ; commands that work on arrays are at least in Unix V7 dc man page; not classic enough for you? 21:40:05 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:40:16 What I already have is that, there are ten bitmaps and ten graymaps which can be manipulated; TeXnicard never works directly on color pictures (the channels will be combined/separated upon export/import). 21:40:40 (Though the indices are limited to 0..2047 in that man page, so it's not an array of arbitrary size.) 21:41:02 Oh, heheh, I forgot that there were numbered arrays along with the named stacks. 21:42:36 My current man dc has a tie between the stacks and arrays -- "Note that each stacked instance of a register has its own array associated with it. Thus 1 0:a 0Sa 2 0:a La 0;ap will print 1, because the 2 was stored in an instance of 0:a that was later popped." -- but the V7 man page mentions that not. 21:44:11 (So in this dc at least there's 256 stacks of arrays.) 21:45:47 -!- coppro has joined. 21:45:53 I have implemented the XKCD variation of Deadfish in dc. (As far as I know, this is *not* the reason why the XKCD variation was invented; I do not know the real reason) 21:47:51 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:48:25 hmm. could an OS be programmed in dc 21:48:45 with some supporting asm 21:49:43 dc does not support that 21:51:36 the xkcd variation was added by an anonymous ip which seems to belong to asiekierka 21:51:54 (based on signing on talk pages) 21:51:57 What reason? 21:52:05 What reason was it added? 21:52:23 no reason given, just "XKCD!" 21:53:03 Was I the first one to use it? Was I the only one to use it? 21:53:11 anyway i just checked it as i remembered it being an anon ip, i wasn't expecting to find it was someone i knew from here 21:53:23 zzo38: i don't recall anyone else implementing it 21:53:41 Someone did say before it belong to asiekierka, but that still doesn't tell what reason it was added. 21:54:35 zzo38: why did you implement the xkcd variation instead of the normal one? 21:55:09 nortti_: Do you know dc? Maybe then you might understand. Look at the implementation code, and then you might understand, too. 21:55:36 It has to do with limitations in dc. 21:57:24 ouch. that code is definitely write only 21:59:19 Are you sure? It should be understandable if you can understand a dc code 22:02:26 I know it is understandable but so is all so called writr only code I have seen before 22:03:13 the channel logs show asiekierka was here that day and the previous, seemingly generally annoying people; he mentioned deadfish but not in connection with xkcd. 22:04:02 anyway i think the dc implementation is good enough reason for the xkcd version to exist. 22:05:46 `log 2008-10-11.txt:07:02:22: What xkcd style comic? 22:06:02 `pastelogs http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2923 22:06:51 oerjan: Yes I think so too, but that probably wasn't the reason the xkcd version was made up at first. 22:07:21 he doesn't seem to have mentioned xkcd since that day. 22:07:44 (or anywhere close to it) 22:08:28 zzo38: well given his general behavior then, i expect it was just a silly joke 22:08:32 here is something! 22:09:02 raises a fist defiantly 22:09:38 the internet probably has cycles within it which correspond to our planetary timezones, days, seasons and years 22:09:56 "duh" 22:10:11 ok correspond might be the wrong word 22:10:58 there is probably big cycles .. i guess that the popularity of a website is involved 22:13:46 Planetary timezones? Do you mean the rate of rotation of all the planets? 22:14:06 ok ill see if i can be cogent 22:16:12 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined. 22:16:13 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Changing host). 22:16:13 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined. 22:16:21 -!- Madoka-Kaname has left. 22:16:28 whatever humans (and other life for that matter) does there is always cycles which constrain their activities. for example, sleeping at night due to the lack of light and sunlight. crops growing according to seasons. seasons being predictable in an order 22:17:19 Well, yes, I know that. The sun, moon, Earth's orbit, and Earth's rotation do affect all of these things. 22:18:00 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:18:07 and i am wondering if such things lurk inherently in the internet, or if it is one monotonous industrial machine without such patterns 22:19:14 I have also heard that the human cycle of birth is more in the spring, but I do not know much about that. 22:19:34 maybe because it is manmade it doesn't have those cycles 22:20:10 i read today in the newspaper that women are most amorous in spring, while men are in late summer 22:20:21 -!- nooga has joined. 22:20:46 Even manmade things can have those cycles if they put them in; I think I read somewhere that some companies use lunar payment 22:20:47 I've decided to install Enigma 22:20:51 it probably varies by climate though; this was a norwegian survey 22:20:51 If it's not arleady installed 22:20:51 itidus20 you sound like the voiceover intro to that tv show _Touch_ 22:21:26 oerjan: Then, considering the different population of different places on the Earth, which sun sign would be more common for a person to be born during, and how much? 22:21:32 zzo38: but the very idea of artificially constraining ourselves is so weird.. 22:21:36 and yet we have to do it 22:21:53 itidus20: You do it if you have not a better way to decide 22:22:04 zzo38: i don't know, but someone has probably done the statistics 22:22:17 -> 22:22:32 data-copying is the area i have in mind that we have to constrain ourselves, because data-copying is easy for us if we choose to do it 22:23:15 so many plugs and connectors consist mostly in how incompatible they can be 22:24:34 The music 22:24:37 It's in there! 22:24:42 itidus20: But that has nothing to do with the moon, isn't it? 22:25:30 zzo38: the good thing about the constraints the moon places on us is we simply have no choice.. we don't choose to be constrained by the sun and moon.. we just are 22:27:28 itidus20: Well, yes; with the sun and moon, they do affect us much. The other planets in the solar system do not significantly affect things on the Earth (although, I have read that there are some effects, apparently sometimes Jupiter prevents asteroids from destroying the Earth) 22:27:42 whoa 22:27:48 nice work Jupiter 22:28:44 itidus20: Jupiter is a much bigger target than the Earth is, both in terms of size and gravity well 22:29:01 Yes 22:29:02 so celestial bodies which are on the sort of orbit that might hit things in the ecliptic are much more likely to hit Jupiter than Earth 22:30:34 i blame the coffee for this set of recent posts i just made 22:33:23 -!- nortti_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:43:50 Make a quiz file for Internet Quiz Engine, which is based on esoteric programming and the people in this channel, and then put it in the topic message 22:46:36 -!- rszeno has joined. 22:46:54 hi 22:46:56 hi rszeno 22:46:59 `? welcome 22:47:02 Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 22:48:49 hi ais523 22:51:43 a turing machine with one tape limited on one side allways start from first cell, right? 22:53:26 I don't think it /has/ to, but people pretty much assume that it does 22:53:33 well unless someone needs it not to do so, but then they'd presumably note that it doesn't 22:53:35 it starts from the start by convention 22:53:47 hmm, now I'm tempted to make a pointless BF derivative that starts from the second cell 22:53:52 and is otherwise the same as stock BF 22:53:57 (we get a lot of pointless BF derivatives around here) 22:54:46 is any result which say that the two machine are equivalent? 22:55:15 equivalent in what sense? computational capability, obviously 22:55:16 i'm reminded how you usually assume a stack language starts with an empty stack, but if you assume the stack is _not_ empty you can do things like that : drop dup dup - - ; definition mentioned yesterday 22:55:20 one which start to a random position and the one which start from first state 22:55:28 ability to simulate, obviously if you're allowed extra colors/states 22:55:48 if it's a random position rather than a specific non-first position, then they're equivalent because you can't move left anyway because you can't guarantee there's anything there 22:55:56 http://img2.demotywatoryfb.pl/uploads/201205/1338074103_by_admin_inner.gif 22:58:44 -!- itidus22 has joined. 22:59:25 -!- itidus22 has changed nick to itidus21. 22:59:27 i try to extend thue, and when i search for lhs in the input i get a list of possible positions 23:00:14 this make me think to start rewriting to a random position not first one 23:02:35 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:02:42 rewriting result could be different in many cases, depend of the rule set 23:06:28 when i say equivalence i'm thinking to simulation 23:07:34 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:08:20 mainly, same results after runing 23:12:08 -!- Patashu has joined. 23:17:06 oh, thue is rather different to a TM in the way it operates 23:17:35 replace-at-random Thue (how it's defined) isn't more powerful than replace-from-the-left Thue (apart from being able to produce true randomness), but it is rather different in nature 23:19:33 Is there WEB-IDE, where, for example, you can click a chunk name to move the cursor to its definition, push a key for the table of contents, and so on? 23:22:22 ais523, i'm looking for the simplest solution. if the replace-from-the-left will give same result i will prefere this one 23:22:59 -!- PatashuXantheres has joined. 23:23:09 rszeno: well, it's a different language; you could convert a program written for one to run in the other, but it might be slower or more complicated 23:24:59 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:25:02 i'm aware of this 23:26:21 i don't know if automatic conversion from one program to another is possible, probably yes 23:27:23 i'm curious if can be done using combinatory logic 23:27:48 oh, automatic conversion from any TC language to any other is always possible 23:27:54 although sometimes (often, in fact) it's rather ugly 23:28:46 ais523, Brainfuck to Jot 23:29:02 Sgeo: meh, I wrote a P'' interp in Unlambda 23:29:05 it's not too hard 23:29:18 it just looks like an interp for a tape-based language written in a functional language 23:29:30 and obfuscated by the lack of useful variable names, etc 23:29:41 * Sgeo was referring mostly to the I/O thing 23:30:02 I/O is another problem i have, :) 23:30:55 i need some syntax, minimal, to describe the I/O flow 23:31:36 i had search on esolang for ideas 23:38:47 -!- zzo38 has left. 23:39:16 well, i'm curios if this is a mad idea 23:40:37 if i have the grammar g1 for a language, P'' for example and another grammar g2 for another language, Unlambda 23:40:38 `? mad 23:40:42 ​"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." 23:41:57 conversion from g1 to g2 is given by a formal system 23:42:46 but a formal system can be described using grammars 23:43:35 the idea is to use thue for all this steps 23:45:18 oerjan, i'm the Cat, :) 23:46:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:46:40 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:46:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:46:54 -!- EgoBot has joined. 23:49:39 * rszeno full trio aka cone 23:49:55 wat 23:50:11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone_%28formal_languages%29 23:51:50 i didn't know about this until few minutes ago 23:53:07 ah transducers 23:53:10 i fact i didn't know is named this way 23:53:28 yes 23:53:33 me neither, but i recall reading about transducers 23:54:00 Well, don't worry about all that, the world's ending today apparently 23:54:01 http://www.the-end.com/ 23:54:49 me too, Mateescu and Salomaa is subject learning in schools here 23:55:11 Sgeo: again? i've barely got over _last_ time... 23:55:42 i didn't learn it from a textbook though, i found it in a math encyclopedia 23:57:25 Sgeo: he seems to be trumpeting his theory there 23:58:23 heh 23:59:33 will be four trumpets, i'm waiting to the 3-rd 23:59:41 http://www.prophecysigns.com/assets/Images/chart16.jpg