00:03:28 <elliottc> 01:01 <Sequell> 5617. KiloByte the Grasshopper (L5 MuWr), slain by a giant newt on D:1 on 2010-01-20, with 265 points after 60641 turns and 0:15:00.
00:03:49 <elliottc> i feel like i'm missing something here
00:06:47 <monqy> might be a mummybot or from when there was this bug that screwed up realtime
00:08:01 <elliottc> monqy: anyway just fixing realtime doesn't explain it!!!
00:08:13 <elliottc> dying to a giant newt on D:1 after 60k turns is still impressive
00:08:54 <monqy> could have been a killsteal
00:09:31 <elliottc> now you're just giving me more options it could be !!!
00:09:42 <elliottc> You visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and saw 1 of its levels.
00:09:59 <elliottc> (http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/KiloByte/morgue-KiloByte-20100120-231230.txt)
00:12:25 <ion> Why do you have a centaur attached to your nicke?
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00:21:53 <monqy> looks like it was a killsteal
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00:37:49 <ion> I’m playing a MfBe and will probably die soon.
00:38:57 <ion> Thawl. A gnoll shaman on D:1.
00:39:27 <elliottc> 01:39 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled killsteal in my learndb.
00:40:19 <monqy> a killsteal is when one thing does the real work of the killing and something else does the final blow, getting the credit
00:40:29 <elliottc> its the spending 60k turns on D:1
00:40:37 <elliottc> monqy: oh that? i thought that was too obvious
00:41:17 <ion> monqy: I was under the impression Crawl distributes the experience based on how much work everyone did nowadays.
00:41:33 <monqy> ion: im talking about monsters killing the player, not the player and his allies
00:42:03 <monqy> i said i'm gone but actually i'm drinking this hot water
00:42:08 <monqy> i'll be gone after i finish
00:42:18 <elliottc> drinking hot water is basically like being gone
00:42:29 <monqy> because it's actually tea
00:42:31 <monqy> good day / im gone
00:42:51 <monqy> room temperature tea is gross
00:43:13 <elliottc> imo tea should be drunk at 0 K
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00:43:19 <elliottc> you never know what those atoms could do otherwise : /
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01:09:42 <elliottc> Wobniar sounds like a Pokemon.
01:11:53 <elliottc> ion: Stop playing, I can't decide between watching you and coolrobin.
01:13:35 <ion> Watch both!
01:18:29 <ion> He likes me, too.
01:19:06 <elliottc> ion: I'm going with coolrobin because you're hugeterm.
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01:33:30 <ion> Hmm. Glaives chop hydra heads off, halberds don’t, right?
01:34:34 <ion> No, halberds do, too.
01:43:51 <elliottc> ion: So why did you use correctterm that one game?
01:43:59 <ion> Forgot to resize.
01:44:07 <elliottc> You should have kept forgetting.
01:44:30 <elliottc> Honestly, you don't need that many lines of messages.
01:44:48 <ion> It’s not about the lines of messages, it’s about the size of the game map.
01:45:09 <elliottc> Right, so chop off a few lines of messages and you'll get something close in 80x24.
01:46:03 <elliottc> ion: You should abandon Trog for Xom.
01:46:08 <ion> Good idea.
01:46:27 <elliottc> Or die, but that's also an option you have now, so you're not losing anything.
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01:51:35 <elliottc> ion: What are you doing still with Trog?
01:51:49 <ion> Exploring a labyrinth.
01:52:05 <elliottc> Ditch Trog once you're done with the labyrinth, okay?
01:52:19 <ion> I’ll put that into consideration.
01:54:15 <elliottc> ion: By "put that in consideration", you mean "okay", right?
01:54:22 <elliottc> Come on, you're a merfolk. How hard can it be to deal with Xom?
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01:59:25 <elliottc> That's not how you spell temple.
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02:00:13 <elliottc> ion: You're stupid and boring.
02:01:22 <elliottc> ^rainbow CONVERT TO XOM IMMEDIATELY
02:01:22 <fungot> CONVERT TO XOM IMMEDIATELY
02:02:48 <elliottc> ion: Xom wants to welcome you!!!!
02:02:54 <elliottc> But he can't because you won't visit him.
02:07:42 <elliottc> WHATEVER YOU DON'T LI nice ring.
02:08:28 <elliottc> ion: Why aren't you wearing that ring. :(
02:09:01 <ion> I’ll replace the ring of hunger with it when i get a scroll of remove curse. :-)
02:09:17 <ion> I got both from the labyrinth.
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02:28:43 <ion> Wow, i didn’t even realize i had this good rF and rC.
02:30:28 <elliottc> ion: See? So there's nothing Xom can do to hurt you.
02:30:43 <elliottc> ion: OK, at least promise me you'll switch to Xom for the orb run if you get that far.
02:31:38 <elliottc> ion: Trog's wrath won't even bother you with that kind of timescale.
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02:34:05 <elliottc> ion: Ping me when you enter a branch or anything interesting happens.
02:34:23 <elliottc> (So I can yell at you to convert to Xom.)
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04:04:08 <elliottc> ion: So how do you deal with early-game gnolls? :(
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04:32:29 <zzo38> The diamond seem not even one of the characters it uses itself
04:33:01 <HackEgo> 12) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 85) <dtsund> For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. \ 142) <alise> So basically we're having an awful lot of very dangerous intercourse. <alise> Involving open wounds. <coppro> I'm going to
04:44:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quasically: not found
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05:00:09 <zzo38> You can make Writer into Either by: uncurry (flip $ maybe Right (const . Left) . getFirst) . runWriter (but this is not the case of WriterT)
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05:02:10 <ion> elliott: Depends on what you have. :-)
05:05:16 <elliott> ion: Stop playing, I'm watching FooTV. :(
05:06:30 <elliott> 06:06 <Nomi> casmith789: did you hear about nethack 4?
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05:11:58 <ion> Is the dodging skill worth training when wearing heavy armoure?
05:13:23 <ion> Gonna do L:8
05:14:47 <elliott> ion: plz resize ur terminal
05:14:54 <ion> elliott: r
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05:20:13 <elliott> 06:20 <xnmojo> tiles help you recognize monsters without having to check on the right or put yuor cursor over them. plus it adds flavor to the game
05:23:19 <ion> Ooh, shoals should be nice since i’m a mf.
05:33:34 <elliott> " In our hearts as they was in mind "
05:45:29 <elliott> ion: Are you still playing?
05:46:13 <shachaf> elliott: Did you hear about my exciting email from Prof. Don Knuth?
05:49:23 <zzo38> What message did you get? Knuth has no email, but I did once print out a message, put it in an envelope including address, give it to someone who was traveling there on business, who then gave it to the secretary of Knuth's office.
05:49:55 <shachaf> zzo38: His secretary (or someone) sent it to me.
05:53:02 <shachaf> He spoke with Ken Thompson and they agree that C89 shouldn't have allowed argc==0.
05:55:33 <kmc> i wonder if there are any security holes caused by executing setuid binaries with argc = 0
05:55:37 <zzo38> I agree too; argc should be positive since it include program name, it is a part of how C works. Except: Sometimes in case main is not a program loaded from some operating system, but instead is the operating system itself or something like that, then you should not try to access argc at all.
05:56:47 <zzo38> kmc: At least in the case of some programs I have written, there aren't any since all such programs intended to be setuid, I always check if it has correct command-line parameters first and the program terminates if it doesn't.
05:56:50 <shachaf> kmc: Unfortunately there isn't really a way to pass data in.
05:57:06 <shachaf> Although it can certainly cause segfaults. Maybe in some cases?
05:57:11 <shachaf> Hmm, you can pass data in in the environment.
05:57:35 <kmc> which comes right after argv on linux
05:57:37 <shachaf> Maybe something that reads too far into argv can be manipulated.
05:57:56 <kmc> i was thinking while (--argc) { ... }
05:58:05 <kmc> will loop forever if argc=0
05:58:15 <kmc> and read through the environment array on linux
05:58:31 <zzo38> When I write programs intended to sun with setuid, or meant to be called remotely, I am always careful about these things.
05:58:43 <shachaf> while (--argc) is an idiom that appears in several of Knuth's programs.
05:59:21 <zzo38> shachaf: But are they standard user programs? If so, it isn't such an issue.
05:59:44 <zzo38> If they are meant for setuid or remote, then you have to be more careful.
06:00:03 <kmc> well really it's undefined behavior
06:00:37 <zzo38> Either it will eventually wrap around or it will segfault before that happens.
06:00:40 <shachaf> kmc: Even if (argc != 2) { printf("Usage: %s BLAH", argv[0]); } is undefined behavior.
06:00:59 <shachaf> In fact printf %s with NULL used to segfault on Solaris libc until a few years ago.
06:01:19 <zzo38> shachaf: I have never done a thing like that; I understand C programming.
06:01:25 <kmc> shachaf: i wonder why you know that
06:02:24 <elliott> I forgot C doesn't specify signed flow.
06:02:29 <elliott> (What's a good word for (under|over)flow?)
06:03:15 <shachaf> zzo38: I've done a thing like that, and so have a bunch of other people.
06:03:28 <shachaf> Under the assumption that why would argc ever be < 1?
06:03:36 <zzo38> Instead of printf("Usage: %s BLAH", argv[0]); I will hardcode the program name (in a macro if necessary), and use fprintf(stderr,...) instead of sending the usage message to stdout, and include a line break.
06:03:59 <shachaf> zzo38: That was just for illustrative purposes.
06:04:31 <shachaf> zzo38: if (argc != 2) { fprintf(stderr, "Usage: %s BLAH\n", argv[0]); } is also UB
06:04:42 <elliott> *Is* there a good word for (under|over)flow?
06:05:00 <zzo38> Well, yes, it is; but as I was saying I do not like to use argv[0] like that
06:06:06 <zzo38> You can just call it overflow; I would use "underflow" only for stack underflow; but in case you don't like that then use different
06:06:15 <kmc> secure C programming is easy as long as you don't make any mistakes
06:06:22 <shachaf> kmc: Do you usually bike on "trips"?
06:06:36 <kmc> i think arithmetic underflow is a kind of arithmetic overflow, broadly speaking
06:06:50 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, it is a kind of arithmetic overflow I agree
06:07:00 <kmc> shachaf: you mean like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_lysergic_acid_diethylamide#.22Bicycle_Day.22
06:07:39 <shachaf> I think you linked to that before once.
06:07:55 <shachaf> I think it was on Apr 19, in fact.
06:08:23 <zzo38> Internet Quiz Engine is a program I have written in C and intend to make safe and secure; I look and am careful, and it probably is; but if you find something wrong with it then feel free to notify me (try to exploit it first if you want, as long as you cause no damage by doing so)
06:08:43 <shachaf> kmc: What's your long Julytrip going to be?
06:08:52 <elliott> kmc is all about the drugs. And trains.
06:09:01 <elliott> kmc: Have you ever been on a train... on acid?
06:09:09 <kmc> elliott: no
06:09:21 <kmc> i took 2C-E for an airplane trip though
06:09:57 <elliott> I once walked while on ibuprofen.
06:09:58 <kmc> shachaf: I'm (maybe) biking to Bethel, Vermont for Firefly, which is a New England regional Burning Man sort of thing
06:10:14 <kmc> or i might get lazy and take the train
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06:10:40 <kmc> it's like 150 miles, probably in 3 days
06:10:45 <elliott> 2C-E is really not a catchy name.
06:10:51 <elliott> They need to work on their marketing.
06:11:06 <kmc> i don't think it has even been popular enough to get a street name
06:11:09 <elliott> Drugs are totally ready for a disruptive startup.
06:11:19 <elliott> Just need some of that Y Combinator funding.
06:11:53 <kmc> how about genetically engineered E. coli which produce psilocybin
06:11:58 <kmc> that would be disruptive
06:12:21 <elliott> "Any street name is doomed to failure since 2C-E is simply not that distinctive for the majority of users."
06:12:34 <elliott> Quick, startup joke... uhh...
06:12:42 <kmc> i think it is pretty hard to distinguish the 5HT agonists, honestly
06:12:56 <kmc> everyone has their own pet theory about how shrooms are more foo and acid is more bar, but they don't really match up
06:12:59 <elliott> (I wonder if I'm on some kind of watchlist for that search.)
06:13:22 <kmc> i think many people could tell them apart in a double-blind test, but their criteria for doing so will not be transferrable
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06:14:22 <elliott> Oh, I was going to sleep, wasn't I.
06:14:38 <kmc> YOU WEREN'T
06:14:50 <zzo38> Do you like the Internet Quiz Engine? Do you believe it is not a security breach?
06:15:16 <elliott> But if I don't sleep now, I'll sleep later. And probably not a later enough later to not wake up when it's dark or getting it.
06:15:17 <kmc> interquiz net engine
06:15:43 <zzo38> kmc: I meant the other one.
06:16:13 <elliott> I think "Do you believe it is not a security breach?" is a question that can only be prompted by something that demonstrates "it" is probably a security breach.
06:17:46 <zzo38> Well, there is no such demonstration I know of at this time, but it is written in C and the source-codes is available to public, and it can be accessed remotely.
06:19:07 <elliott> Hmm, Programming in the 21st Century seems to be devolving into self-reference a bit.
06:24:00 <zzo38> elliott: Are you tired? Is it dark?
06:24:18 <elliott> It was dark but then it stopped being dark and got light again.
06:24:34 <zzo38> Sleep if you like to do so, please.
06:24:42 <kmc> elliott: what is it
06:24:58 <elliott> kmc: The, uh, sky, I guess.
06:25:48 <kmc> imeant Programming in the 21st Century
06:26:04 <kmc> oh that blog
06:26:06 <elliott> http://prog21.dadgum.com/. It's a pretty good blog.
06:26:17 <elliott> Not as good as http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/, though!
06:27:45 <shachaf> whowrites arcanesentiment??
06:30:06 <kmc> prog21 claims to be a "super technical programming blog" but i just flipped through a half dozen articles and saw about 3 lines of code total
06:30:23 <kmc> http://prog21.dadgum.com/137.html
06:30:53 <elliott> I think that's more than a little joking. It was more code-focused a while ago, anyway.
06:30:58 <elliott> (By "a while" I mean "a few years".)
06:31:03 <shachaf> Perhaps the author has got a different "super technical programming blog"!
06:31:14 <kmc> also here's yet another person who thinks the entire and sole point of Haskell is to never use state
06:31:25 <kmc> (mainly in re the latest article)
06:32:07 <elliott> He's not exactly inexperienced with functional languages.
06:32:13 <zzo38> Then they should learn!
06:32:37 <elliott> Anyway, if you're using state, then it's only tenuously "functional programming" in the "declarative programming" sense most people use it to mean.
06:32:45 <elliott> Whether it's Haskell is another matter entirely, of course.
06:33:05 <elliott> ("State" here used as an abbreviation for "mutable state in the usual imperative manner".)
06:33:58 <kmc> it's a common fallacy; this article is not an especially strong instance
06:33:59 <zzo38> You can use state, and a bunch of other things, by using the correct computable mathematical representation of such things. And, isn't there some commands in Haskell to make these imperative kind of state in IO monad?
06:34:00 <shachaf> "functional programming" doesn't mean much.
06:34:18 <shachaf> (Alternatively, means too much.)
06:34:28 <kmc> means too many different things
06:34:31 <shachaf> One of my new goals on the Internet is to avoid arguments that are about words.
06:34:41 <shachaf> Unless they're explicitly about words, maybe.
06:34:41 <kmc> aren't all arguments about words?
06:34:55 <elliott> By that definition, everything is a "correct computable mathematical representation".
06:35:02 <shachaf> No, some arguments just use them.
06:35:03 <elliott> C is a correct computable mathematical representation because you can model it formally.
06:36:15 * kmc has a super technical programming blog
06:36:35 <shachaf> kmc: Arguments which stem from unshared definitions or axioms are probably rarely fruitful.
06:37:10 <shachaf> Definition disagreements are reasonably easy to overcome if someone notices and clarifies things.
06:37:23 * elliott is a super technical programming blog.
06:37:50 <shachaf> If two people have unshared axioms then an argument about theorems resulting from those axioms is mostly pointless.
06:38:11 <kmc> unless they explicitly acknowledge it, and are trying to justify their respective axioms informally
06:38:20 <elliott> http://ehird.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/computing-fib3-in-haskells-type-system.html -- is this super technical enough? (Okay, I never made any other posts to that thing. And also I broke the code before posting it because I didn't understand why "instance (C a) => D a" wouldn't work.)
06:38:27 <shachaf> I heard a rumour that a tradition in Indian philosophy is to say "these are my axioms; OK, these are your axioms; for the purpose of this argument let's just use the intersection"
06:38:59 <shachaf> That sounds too reasonable to be true, though. :-)
06:39:02 <elliott> kmc: Not every argument is about words. Some are about irreconcilable differences in value systems.
06:39:12 <elliott> I suppose you can make those to be arguments about words, too. (Such as the definition of "good".)
06:39:44 <pikhq> You can *make* nearly any argument be about words.
06:39:50 <pikhq> This is the art of "politics".
06:40:00 <kmc> also it's pretty cheeky for him to claim to be on "the cutting edge of functional programming research"
06:40:02 <shachaf> I can't work out whether elliott's /ignore is on the IRC level or on the elliott level.
06:40:18 <shachaf> kmc: Didn't you hear? "cutting edge" is the old "mainstream".
06:40:25 <elliott> kmc: Yes, cheeky, as in the position of his tongue when writing that.
06:40:28 <shachaf> You have to be on at least the "bleeding edge" to be worth anything.
06:40:33 <elliott> You're taking him way too seriously. :p
06:40:56 <kmc> sure it's tongue in cheek, but implicit in that joke is the assertion that actual published FP research is worthless
06:41:11 <zzo38> You should test it at first before writing the report.
06:41:21 <shachaf> kmc: Did you hear how the number of unordered n-tuples of elements of k is (n + k - 1) choose k?
06:41:28 <shachaf> Oh, I guess I did mention that while you were here.
06:41:43 <kmc> "look at this shit essay i wrote, and it's super popular now, I guess that invalidates everyone else working in this field"
06:41:45 <elliott> I don't think that's necessarily true; I think he was commenting more on the prominence of what he wrote in searches for the same thing, which had artificially made him resemble an authority. (But this is a silly thing to argue about.)
06:42:55 <elliott> I haven't used Icon. Maybe I should use Icon.
06:43:41 <elliott> "But any language that can implement its own interpreter isn't total!" Hmm, that sounds too vague to be strictly true.
06:47:47 <elliott> (Hey, does that statement correspond to Goedel's theorem?)
06:47:59 <elliott> (And is the vagueness fixed by requiring the same things it does?)
06:50:18 <zzo38> Yes at least to me it does seem like Goedel's theorem, too
06:50:55 <kmc> i think i agree with the prog21 guy more often than not
06:51:05 <kmc> i've linked a lot of people to "Advice for aimless excited programmers"
06:51:13 <elliott> zzo38: Yes, I think it does. You want to construct the program P = interpret(encoding of P).
06:51:39 <kmc> and i've frequently ranted about how "Let's reimplement all existing software, but in Haskell!" is dumb
06:51:56 <elliott> kmc: It's exceptionally dumb. They should do it in @lang intsead.
06:52:11 <kmc> extern "Haskell" { ... }
06:52:24 <elliott> @lang can't talk to Haskell.
06:52:33 <kmc> shachaf: did you know that GCC has extern "Java" { ... }
06:53:13 <pikhq> You should implement extern "@lang" { ... }
06:53:29 <elliott> Nothing can talk to @lang.
06:53:50 <kmc> elliott: then how will i write a video game??
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06:53:55 <kmc> checkmate atheists
06:54:07 <zzo38> How is the computer going to do anything if the nothing can talk to the @lang?
06:54:16 <Sgeo> I'd use a device with a crappy UI if I understand the UI because I made it
06:54:20 <kmc> are there any ahead-of-time native compilers for C#
06:54:22 <zzo38> There must somehow be some command to do so.
06:54:39 <elliott> zzo38: It will mumble to an x86-64 computer if it has to.
06:54:42 <zzo38> Even if it is only the other way!
06:54:48 <elliott> But it will refuse to rise to the level of "talking".
06:55:08 <elliott> Also it'll be really rude about it, should I sleep.
06:56:30 <kmc> it's weird that there are no high-level "mainstream" languages with AOT native compilers
06:56:45 <elliott> AOT native compilers are sort of horrible to use.
06:56:55 <shachaf> kmc: There's gcj, isn't there?
06:57:04 <elliott> kmc: Does D count as: high-level; "mainstream"?
06:57:08 <shachaf> Admittedly that's not a mainstream compiler.
06:57:11 <kmc> maybe i should have put "mainstream" on "compilers" as well
06:57:15 <elliott> If so, checkmate Pythonistas.
06:57:15 <kmc> i don't think D is mainstream
06:57:20 <elliott> (...It had to sound similar.)
06:57:41 <elliott> TIOBE, also known for: absolutely fucking nothing else.
06:57:44 <shachaf> The Index Of Bad Estimates
06:57:50 <elliott> *nothing fucking, perhaps.
06:58:06 <elliott> LOOKING FURTHER AT THE TIOBE INDEX (this is my catchphrase), Lisp sort of counts.
06:58:20 <elliott> They think Logo is the 19th most popular programming language.
06:58:22 <kmc> maybe COBOL is high level
06:58:27 <kmc> nobody my age knows anything about COBOL
06:58:28 <elliott> I'm... not sure what's up with that.
06:58:47 <elliott> Probably a bunch of false matches for the word "logo".
06:58:59 <shachaf> kmc: Does Algol 68 count as mainstream and/or high-level?
06:59:09 <elliott> Apparently that's the 20th most popular programming language!
06:59:09 <kmc> shachaf: I guess so
06:59:22 <kmc> maybe Vala counts as both
06:59:25 <elliott> Algol 68 counts as "mainstream"?
06:59:34 <pikhq> It was at one point at least.
06:59:47 <elliott> My understanding was that nobody used Algol 68.
06:59:51 <shachaf> I have an Algol 68 interpreter installed on my machine.
06:59:53 <elliott> Because it's complicated as shit.
07:00:01 <kmc> Vala is used to write desktop apps, which we all know is the criterion for language success
07:00:02 <elliott> "ALGOL 68 is substantially different from Algol 60 and was criticised partially for being so, so that in general "Algol" refers to dialects of Algol 60."
07:00:41 * shachaf wonders whether there can be such a thing as cynicism overflow.
07:00:41 <elliott> There's a fork of the GNOME note-taking application Tomboy that tries to be completely identical in every way except it's written in C++ rather than C#.
07:00:50 <shachaf> Perhaps we can figure out a way to exploit kmc.
07:00:54 <kmc> Haskell might be used in financial analysis and bioinformatics and NSA cryptography, but it won't truly be mainstream until someone uses it to write a GTK+ app for downloading cat pictures
07:01:06 <kmc> actually ManateeLazyCat probably did that already
07:01:08 <elliott> I'm sure manatee can do that WHY THE FUCK AM I AWAKE
07:01:32 <kmc> i always thought haskell isn't and shouldn't be a "mainstream" language
07:01:36 <shachaf> Oh, I mentioned Algol 68 and then elliott mentioned it.
07:01:37 <kmc> but rather a language of many interesting niches
07:01:41 <pikhq> elliott: What time is it?
07:01:45 <shachaf> I guess elliott is reading my messages, just not replying.
07:01:45 <pikhq> And when did you wake?
07:01:48 <lambdabot> Local time for pikhq is Wed May 9 01:01:46 2012
07:01:52 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is 2012-05-09 07:01:52 +0000
07:02:04 <pikhq> When did you wake?
07:02:33 <zzo38> That seem to be late for wake up!!
07:02:45 <pikhq> elliott: Only 12 hours awake, then?
07:03:02 <elliott> I don't know, that's too much arithmetic for how tired I am.
07:03:20 <pikhq> ... You tired shouldn't be.
07:03:29 <elliott> Well, I didn't sleep much.
07:03:51 <kmc> shachaf: hey, i'm not *only* a cynic
07:04:22 <shachaf> Not *only* a cynic. A cynic with a super technical programming blog.
07:04:26 <zzo38> Some other programming language not used anymore is BLISS (there is a lack of modern implementation); C became common. Although, I (and some others too) think some ideas of BLISS are better designed than C. (LLVM is also better designed than C)
07:04:51 <elliott> "LLVM is better than C" is my favourite zzo38 opinion.
07:05:16 <kmc> depends what you're using it for
07:05:43 <shachaf> Why would you write actual code in C?
07:06:04 <kmc> i still think C is a pretty good language in its niche
07:06:16 <shachaf> Its niche being "languages that are C"?
07:06:29 <kmc> but it's not "close to the machine" or "a portable assembler"
07:06:34 <elliott> pikhq never even answered me. :(
07:06:34 <zzo38> elliott: Well, LLVM does lack macros and so on; but if we can make something that has some features of BLISS and also all the LLVM commands, and then translates everything that isn't direct LLVM command into the LLVM commands, and then it will compile; would be good idea.
07:06:46 <kmc> shachaf: who's the cynic now :(
07:06:46 <pikhq> elliott: I vote "not unless you're tired".
07:06:55 <elliott> kmc: it's a portable PDP assembler, which doesn't contradict anything you said :P
07:07:04 <elliott> I miss real CISCs. (note: I've never used a real CISC)
07:07:27 <shachaf> pikhq: Should've voted: "iff you're tired"
07:07:32 <zzo38> kmc: C is, I suppose, pretty good language in its niche, but it has some bad designs
07:07:47 <pikhq> It continues to bother me that people think C is "close to the machine". It's not all that close to x86 ASM, which itself is pretty abstracted from the hardware.
07:07:49 <kmc> also by "C" i mean C99 with a variety of GNU extensions
07:08:03 <elliott> pikhq: So is that yes if you are tired?
07:08:10 <shachaf> Once it was easy to tell what C's bad designs were.
07:08:17 <pikhq> And the idea that it's "portable assembler" makes for some astonishingly bad C.
07:08:17 <shachaf> But then I forbade de signs of the bad designs
07:08:21 <kmc> pikhq: well I think "close to the abstraction presented by the hardware" is a valid meaning of "close to the machine"
07:08:25 <kmc> so i try to reserve judgement
07:08:36 <kmc> but yes many people are misinformed here, and it bothers me
07:08:39 <shachaf> elliott: I bet I'm more tired than you.
07:08:43 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is 2012-05-09 07:08:43 +0000
07:08:47 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Wed May 9 00:08:41 2012
07:08:51 <kmc> C isn't particularly close to the absraction presented by the hardware, either
07:08:52 <elliott> kmc: You would have fit in here great a few years ago when I was complaining about all the same things.
07:08:58 <pikhq> kmc: 'Cept it's not *that* close to x86.
07:09:02 <kmc> but it's a good deal closer than most languages people use
07:09:05 <elliott> It should only take you a few months to decide to write an OS.
07:09:10 <pikhq> I mean, memcpy is a single instruction.
07:09:19 <kmc> C compilers do a lot of fancy non-local optimization
07:09:21 <elliott> Then some bad things happen though, SORRY THAT'S FATE.
07:09:24 <zzo38> I want a computer that can be programmed in Checkout
07:09:31 <kmc> elliott: you were complaining about this before it was cool?
07:09:50 <pikhq> Well, strcpy, sorry.
07:10:05 <kmc> isn't memcpy also?
07:10:18 <shachaf> There's an instruction that decrements ecx and checks if it's 0 or something.
07:10:29 <kmc> but there's also rep movs
07:10:32 <ion> There’s a Portal 2 sale.
07:12:31 <elliott> The consensus is that I sleep, right?
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07:12:57 <shachaf> ion: Huh, Portal 2 supports user-made puzzles these days?
07:13:23 <pikhq> shachaf: As of, uh, today.
07:13:42 <kmc> i guess strcpy is repne movsb
07:14:09 <shachaf> All these great instructions.
07:14:22 * kmc <3 those instructions
07:14:25 <pikhq> Alas, those have undefined behavior.
07:14:42 <shachaf> pikhq: I'm pretty sure an Intel and/or AMD manual defines the behaviors of those.
07:14:47 <kmc> there are particular chips which define both
07:14:57 <shachaf> kmc: I want a disassembler that shows what each instruction actually does!
07:15:01 <pikhq> shachaf: Sweet jesus on a stick.
07:15:07 <kmc> intel calls rep nop "pause" but it's encoded as rep nop
07:15:10 <ion> shachaf: Apparently something like that, yes.
07:15:22 <kmc> it's a spin loop hint
07:15:25 <shachaf> The Intel manual has a pretty precise description of each instruction in sort-of pseudocode.
07:15:51 <shachaf> Probably a lot of it could be cut out to fit the context (you know whether you're in long mode and so on).
07:15:53 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ian#DEC_VAX
07:15:58 <pikhq> elliott: 日本語で寝られるの
07:16:01 <shachaf> This would be a useful feature of a disassembler program.
07:16:17 <kmc> and "rep ret" is a workaround for a bug in some AMD branch predictors
07:16:27 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Timeline_of_esoteric_programming_languages#AS.2F400
07:16:28 <shachaf> pikhq: Yay, I can read the first three characters of that!
07:16:32 <kmc> but the new advice is to use "ret 0" instead
07:16:38 <shachaf> Actually I can read the first two and then make a heuristic guess at the third.
07:16:59 <pikhq> shachaf: The heuristic guess is almost certainly right. :)
07:17:23 <elliott> Note to self tomorrow: fix unsigned tempalte on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Turing-complete.
07:17:38 <elliott> Also correct myself wrt hosted C and CHAR_BIT.
07:17:39 <shachaf> Is it a particle? What's a particle?
07:18:01 <pikhq> shachaf: In this context, yes.
07:18:21 <elliott> I'm going to sleep assholes.
07:18:32 <pikhq> shachaf: Actually, all the ones where "yes" is a sensible answer.
07:18:42 <elliott> All these assholes are so slept.
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07:18:52 <pikhq> "で" is a particle meaning something along the lines of "by means of"...
07:19:46 <pikhq> The sentence translates as "You can sleep in Japanese"
07:20:17 <pikhq> "nihongo de nerareru no"
07:20:33 <shachaf> That big complicated thing is just pronounced "ne"?
07:20:46 <pikhq> japanese-language by-means-of sleep-able explanation
07:21:29 <shachaf> So why not just write "ne"?
07:21:35 <shachaf> RIDDLED YOU THERE, DIDN'T I
07:21:56 <zzo38> Perhaps, so that it can be understood
07:22:00 <pikhq> Cause that'd be ね, not 寝.
07:22:12 <zzo38> That is why not just write "ne"
07:22:16 <pikhq> See, so much harder to read.
07:22:45 <zzo38> It has nothing to do with how hard it is to read, but with how hard it is to understand, which is different.
07:23:08 <pikhq> I mean, 中華人民民主主義共和国 is much nicer than ちゅうかじんみんみんしゅしゅぎきょうわこく.
07:23:37 <pikhq> "Democratic People's Republic of China"
07:23:45 <pikhq> Longest all-kanji phrase I could pull out of my ass.
07:24:51 <pikhq> Yes. China is the "middle country" donchano
07:25:14 <pikhq> (they literally thought they were the center of everything so they called themselves that.)
07:25:43 <shachaf> I'm trying to figure out what 中 is.
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07:25:56 <shachaf> Without looking it up. Too easy, right?
07:26:05 <shachaf> pikhq: To be fair, everyone thought they were the center of everything.
07:26:14 <shachaf> What a pity they were all wrong until America came along!
07:26:17 <pikhq> "Middle", "center".
07:26:33 <shachaf> Should I look at it as mouth-thing + line-thing or something?
07:26:42 <pikhq> That is how it's written, yes.
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07:27:02 <zzo38> I am even play mahjong. I know it means center, and in Japanese mahjong this tile is called "chun"
07:27:16 <pikhq> Single line going top-to-bottom.
07:27:33 <pikhq> If you write really fast it ends up looking a little bit like ゆ
07:28:27 <shachaf> 00:23 < pikhq> I mean, 中華人民民主主義共和国 is much nicer than ちゅうかじんみんみんしゅしゅぎきょうわこく.
07:28:38 <shachaf> 華 looks like it has a bunch of things.
07:29:27 <pikhq> I don't think I ever see it outside of 中華.
07:29:51 <pikhq> I don't even remember the semantics, cause it's basically only there.
07:30:42 <shachaf> 人 means "life" or "person" or something like that?
07:31:08 <Kray> person or human
07:31:09 <pikhq> Also, I did the wrong damned phrase.
07:31:33 <pikhq> "People's Republic of China".
07:31:38 <pikhq> They're not officially democratic.
07:32:08 <pikhq> "People", in the sense of "people's"
07:32:17 <shachaf> I thought we already had "person".
07:34:27 <pikhq> 人民 is "people's", as used in the names of communist countries.
07:35:14 <shachaf> That looks like a thing-thing next to a mouth-thing.
07:35:40 <pikhq> 共和国 cooperative-peaceful-country ish = republic
07:35:54 <kmc> much of that stuff about the AS/400 seems decidedly not-stupid
07:37:33 <kmc> strongly typed pointers, unified ram/disk address space, hardware garbage collection
07:37:37 <kmc> these all sound great
07:38:42 <kmc> also AIUI the instruction set is a virtual-ish thingy which the OS compiles to model-specific native instructions
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10:17:42 <cheater_> kmc: the problem with doing all that in hardware is that you're stuck with it.
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10:19:12 <cheater_> i think we've seen many OSes and langs improve considerably especially because they've been designed for a comparably fairly minimal hardware platform
10:20:10 <shubshub> My idea is to create a language built specifically to make games in batch
10:20:27 <shubshub> Basically you have a script telling it what to d eg
10:21:10 <shubshub> Its Geniusi thought it up in a split second
10:21:33 <shubshub> or sprite do shoot enemy at position x y
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10:22:11 <shubshub> if sprite do shoot enemy at x y results miss do sprite do shoot enemy at new position x y
10:23:29 <kmc> cheater_: well like i said the instruction set is a virtual-ish thingy which the OS compiles to model-specific native instructions
10:23:39 <kmc> and i think you can use those native instructions too
10:24:10 <kmc> if you specify garbage collection instructions then in the worst case you implement them in software, as now
10:25:31 <shubshub> game start with player at position x y and enemy at position x y and not win
10:26:02 <shubshub> anyway ima go work on this new language wish me luck
10:29:02 <cheater_> kmc: yeah but you also mentioned hardware features
10:29:25 <cheater_> were typed pointers a hw thing?
10:29:58 <kmc> that one is probably hard to emulate without hardware support
10:30:10 <cheater_> man, i've spent way too much time reading up on vintage op amps.
10:30:23 <cheater_> kmc: you just have a software gc, no?
10:30:36 <cheater_> i'm big on recording equipment and stuff
10:30:50 <cheater_> and i hit a link about the jensen 990 randomly
10:30:58 <cheater_> last time i searched for that stuff i could find nothing
10:31:05 <cheater_> now the web's full of that stuff
10:31:57 <cheater_> that's mostly just info about 4 different op amps
10:32:38 <cheater_> did u kno: the first op amps were just pcb's with components on 'em
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10:33:06 <cheater_> then they started potting that stuff in resin and calling it an "integrated circuit"
10:33:22 <cheater_> the nice thing about discrete op amps is that they have amazing headroom
10:33:29 <cheater_> and lots of current capability
10:33:39 <cheater_> so they are really good for like, high-end mixers
10:34:22 <cheater_> you can get really low noise too
10:35:07 <cheater_> in the meantime i ended up listening to biosphere - cirque and it totally put me in the zone gathering info about that stuff
10:35:20 <cheater_> that guy's music is fairly hypnotic
10:36:47 <cheater_> hey kmc, do you know of anything in linux that could slow down disk io considerably?
10:37:11 <cheater_> maybe some sort of debug libs or a misconfiguration
10:38:19 <cheater_> i've noticed for some time my pc's disk operation was very slow, but i thought it was just a bit older than usual, but now i started comparing that with network IO and it's much faster when i get data from the network directly, without hdd access
10:38:37 <cheater_> e.g. browser using or not using a local squid instance
10:39:02 <kmc> it's expected that network IO to a good server over a fast pipe will be faster than a shitty local hard drive
10:39:03 <cheater_> flash videos while it's buffering vs while it's done downloading (the former really ends up skipping around)
10:39:12 <kmc> this sounds severe though
10:39:25 <kmc> echo 1 | sudo tee /proc/sys/vm/block_dump
10:39:27 <cheater_> well notice that just a pending download in youtube can slow things down
10:39:34 <kmc> that will start to spew block layer events to the system log
10:39:38 <kmc> maybe you see something in there
10:39:46 <kmc> misconfiguration of the block device can do it too
10:39:58 <kmc> check hdparm, maybe dma is disabled or something
10:39:59 <cheater_> i think i started with 8.something
10:40:06 <kmc> boot a livecd and see if block performance gets better
10:40:22 <kmc> i don't know what filemon is
10:40:37 <cheater_> filemon is a windows thing from sysinternals, shows you all file operations happening on your pc
10:41:07 <cheater_> i thought maybe linux is doing something like that and reporting it to some api and hogging down because of this
10:41:38 <kmc> i don't know how to get all file events on linux
10:41:46 <kmc> you can get them for individual files/directories using inotify
10:41:58 <cheater_> maybe there's some sort of inotify fuckup
10:41:58 <kmc> oh also check iotop
10:42:04 <kmc> and see if some program is hogging the IO bandwidth
10:42:19 <cheater_> i'd know that, the hdds would be running constantly
10:42:33 <cheater_> it's like, every time there's file io it has a constant wait time
10:43:18 <kmc> how about IO scheduler settings
10:43:20 <kmc> cat /sys/class/block/sda/queue/scheduler
10:43:31 <kmc> and then i think there are a bunch of tunables
10:43:35 <kmc> but i don't know what to do with them
10:44:06 <cheater_> example: in gnome press alt-f2 and you get a popup for running a program
10:44:18 <cheater_> i press alt-f2 and while i'm typing it tries to autocomplete or something
10:44:27 <cheater_> and the window freezes for like half a second
10:44:55 <cheater_> however if i quickly type, e.g. nm-applet, and press enter, then it closes the window immediately and starts the program
10:45:32 <cheater_> while doing that i look at iotop but nothing conclusive happens
10:45:59 <cheater_> gnome-panel (which is what spawns the window) shows up at the top of iotop but for a split second and it doesn't bump any summaries
10:46:46 <cheater_> actually the last one was a lie, it does bump "total disk read" but only to like 800 K/s
10:47:09 <kmc> try killing random parts of gnome until it stops
10:47:09 <fizzie> There's that new blktrace thing for IO tracing.
10:48:21 <cheater_> HDIO_GET_DMA failed: Inappropriate ioctl for device
10:48:30 <cheater_> HDIO_GET_DMA failed: Inappropriate ioctl for device
10:48:54 <cheater_> manual says: -d get/set using_dma flag
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10:49:22 <fizzie> "hdparm -i" should show the mode it's using with a *.
10:49:54 <fizzie> I suppose using_dma is some sort of a specific thing for a specific case.
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10:51:19 <cheater_> UDMA modes: udma0 udma1 udma2 udma3 udma4 udma5 *udma6
10:52:46 <cheater_> hdparm -i shows me around 75 MB/s, that shouldn't be so bad then
10:52:58 <cheater_> can it be that something in linux is eating cpu while i'm writing to disk?
10:53:32 <cheater_> i'm using gvfs for some things, but of course not for the root (which is what would be written to and read from by all the cases i described)
10:56:54 <cheater_> maybe it's even something in gnome - do e.g. flash or firefox use some sort of gnome api for fs access?
10:57:45 <kmc> flash would use firefox for fs access
10:57:51 <kmc> i don't think firefox uses gvfs but it's possible
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11:00:41 <cheater_> oh the gvfs thing and the flash/firefox disk access thing were separate ideas
11:00:56 <cheater_> i don't think firefox would be like.. specifically using some sort of gvfs api.
11:02:52 <kmc> well you said "some sort of gnome api"
11:04:32 <cheater_> # cat /sys/class/block/sda/queue/scheduler
11:04:56 <kmc> ok, cfq is the default and is usually sensible
11:05:18 <cheater_> "hdparm -i shows me around 75 MB/s" < that should've been -t
11:05:47 <mroman_> What's the smallest turing-complete esolang?
11:05:54 <mroman_> And by smallest i mean "least instructions"
11:06:14 <kmc> one instruction
11:06:19 <mroman_> (without production rules or i/o)
11:06:31 <kmc> subtract and branch if negative
11:07:38 <kmc> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Subleq
11:08:30 <cheater_> <kmc> try killing random parts of gnome until it stops < there's not much gnome to kill really, i've got gnome-panel, gdm-simple-slave, gnome-keyring-daemon, gnome-session, polkit-gnome-authentication-agent-1, gnome-power-manager, gnome-screensaver, /usr/lib/gnome-disk-utility/gdu-notification-daemon,
11:09:26 <cheater_> why a disk utility needs a daemon is beyond me though
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11:20:29 <kmc> i'm... not really sure
11:20:45 <kmc> the one that's actually debian
11:20:49 <kmc> debian unstable
11:20:56 <kmc> i don't have a gnome login session
11:21:01 <kmc> my preferred amount of gnome is 0
11:21:23 <kmc> but i like to use certain applications which in turn launch various of those gnome daemons
11:21:37 <kmc> every so often I will get annoyed and try to disable most of them
11:21:37 <cheater_> yeah i need you to be using gnome-panel though
11:21:52 <kmc> i have no panel or status bar of any kind
11:21:57 <cheater_> because i want someone to strace their gnome-panel
11:22:12 <kmc> you should ask #ubuntu
11:22:15 <kmc> [troll suggestion]
11:22:48 <kmc> not all of them do
11:23:21 <kmc> 10.04 LTS desktop is still supported
11:23:29 <kmc> and was the most recent LTS until like last week
11:23:37 <cheater_> it only gets strong arm support
11:24:09 <cheater_> kinda like those parents that beat their children because they "love them"
11:24:35 <cheater_> 10.04 is that kind of abuse case i guess
11:24:43 <kmc> right then
11:27:49 <kmc> cheater_: what should i do next for mosh
11:32:07 <qfr> Add an audio player
11:33:01 <cheater_> troll suggestion: hidden cmdline switch that engages a plasma visual
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11:35:39 <kmc> screw 32-bit color
11:35:44 <kmc> double-precision HDR floating point
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13:08:54 <nortti> Yay! Got my system unfucked. ^_^
13:12:33 <kmc> what was the fuckage?
13:13:45 <nortti> kmc: /sbin/init was broken
13:15:03 <kmc> that'll do it
13:15:19 <kmc> how does it happen?
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13:15:47 <Lumpio-> I once fixed a server that had an error in a shellscript inside initrd
13:15:56 <Lumpio-> Or well, busybox itself didn't quite run correctly
13:15:59 <Lumpio-> Weird, weird boot failures.
13:16:51 <nortti> Lumpio-: /sbin/init was symlink to broken busybox which got broken because power cable fell out of my computer's power socket when I was updating
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13:19:02 <Lumpio-> ...my thing had somehow gotten a busybox that wouldn't work correctly in an early boot environment
13:19:15 <Lumpio-> It wanted procfs to be mounted to work correctly
13:19:28 <Lumpio-> Which was one of the things the shellscript it was supposed to run was supposed to do.
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13:25:29 <kmc> out of curiosity, which distros were the two of you using
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13:55:49 <qfr> Arch Gentoo
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15:47:03 <Gregor> @tell esolang_1234 1) You don't need an account on the wiki to make a page, anonymous editing is allowed. 2) There are no sensitive credentials required to create an account, why not just make one?
15:48:09 <kmc> there should be esolangs named BF and Brainf*ck and Brainf**k, each vastly different from Brainfuck
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15:59:43 <itidus21> i wonder if multitasking increases cases of internet addiction. as drowning in browser tabs can tell us, when men (i simply do not know about women) have the opportunity to multitask they create for themselves task-debt
16:01:03 <itidus21> moreover that one of the fundamental differences between how we do things with a computer and without is probably the multitasking
16:01:32 <kmc> i like how you assume this is gender dimorphic for no reason
16:01:51 <kmc> and by "like" i mean "kill all humans"
16:02:02 <itidus21> reason = a lifetime of growing up being told women are better at multitasking
16:02:42 <itidus21> as for the task thing, im wrong about that too of course since multi tasking is about cpu time more than user interface time
16:03:23 <itidus21> and maybe that xerox didn't get a chance to finish these GUI ideas before they got rushed out the gate by apple/microsoft
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16:12:31 <kmc> looks like you're multitasking itidus21
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16:31:26 <itidus21> so my concern is not so much with process or application multitasking, but specifically user interface multitasking
16:33:03 <itidus21> although it has it's uses, theres probably better ways it could be done.. i guess unix/linux command line users have already known this a long time
16:34:23 <itidus21> like.. in windows.. i often find myself opening a notepad to transfer a piece of text between two apps
16:34:58 <itidus21> but somehow i imagine on a command line theres just "better" ways such needs are met
16:35:49 <itidus21> and often it's for formatting... like to remove linebreaks when posting in irc.
16:37:55 <itidus21> to make matters worse, with regard to the broswer, each tab having it's own history.. there should really be a tree to map those links
16:38:21 <itidus21> instead of an array of tab histories
16:39:54 -!- nortti has joined.
16:40:17 <itidus21> in general, i don't think it is of much benefit for me to start doing 30 things with computer before i have finished the first 1
16:41:32 <olsner> you should probably start by making sure it's of benefit for you to do anything at all
16:41:56 <olsner> (I have decided that it's better for me to do nothing at all, for example)
16:43:21 <itidus21> i don't think anyone else here has any such problem.. so yeah.. if anyone wants to buy deranged ranting services.. you know where to call
16:43:41 <kmc> but why would i pay when i get it for free?
16:44:35 <itidus21> even snake venom is useful for developing antivenom
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16:45:20 <elliott> 07:35:54: <kmc> much of that stuff about the AS/400 seems decidedly not-stupid
16:45:42 <elliott> yeah, but I suspect it'd have been doomed to slowness with the rest of the "true" CISCs
16:46:01 <olsner> oh noes, did I miss a discussion about mainframes?
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16:50:18 <itidus21> olsner: i will consider that. (those 2 posts) is as good as anything the chinese have ever written.
16:51:11 <itidus21> the 2 lines he put before elliott arrived
16:51:18 <kmc> what about the chinese
16:51:44 <itidus21> well it sounds like the kind of thing they would say in their ancient philosophies
16:52:20 <itidus21> but i actually think the chinese elucidated some of the most concise and minimialist philosophical advice
16:52:45 <olsner> A student asked Master Yun-Men (A.D. 949) "Not even a thought has arisen; is there still a sin or not?" Master replied, "Mount Sumeru!"
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16:53:06 <olsner> itidus21: stuff like that is what they say in "the ancient philosophies"
16:53:28 <olsner> itidus21: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koan
16:53:47 <olsner> Two hands clap and there is a sound. What is the sound of one hand?
16:53:53 <itidus21> ive not really looked into them
16:53:58 <nortti> does anyone know how to change keyboard config for linux virtual consoles
16:54:06 <elliott> 13:16:51: <nortti> Lumpio-: /sbin/init was symlink to broken busybox which got broken because power cable fell out of my computer's power socket when I was updating
16:54:12 <elliott> and this is why package managers need atomic updates
16:54:48 <elliott> 15:25:59: <esolang_1234> Hey... I have an idea for an esolang
16:54:48 <elliott> 15:26:33: <esolang_1234> but I don't have a wiki account :(
16:54:48 <elliott> 15:26:54: <esolang_1234> Can someone create it for me?
16:54:48 <kmc> yeah i was trying to remember if Debian did this right or if I've just never interrupted an upgrade this way
16:54:50 <elliott> 15:26:59: <esolang_1234> I'
16:54:52 <elliott> 15:27:08: <esolang_1234> I'll give the info.
16:54:53 <nortti> elliott: How would that have helped? the binary itself was corrupted
16:54:58 <elliott> kmc: debian doesn't do it right in the general case
16:55:07 <elliott> nortti: because the power would have cut before the binary would be swapped
16:55:13 <elliott> which would happen at the very end of the update process, atomically
16:55:31 <elliott> kmc: but it might have some special hacks for important packages, dunno
16:55:42 <elliott> I don't know of any package manager than Nix that can update more than one package atomically
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16:57:29 <elliott> olsner: like two hands clapping but half as loud
16:57:57 <kmc> elliott: you cracked the code
16:58:04 <kmc> we need to get you on the phone to the Pope of China immediately
16:58:17 <kmc> checkmate buddha
16:58:30 <elliott> silly hindus and their koans
16:58:38 <kmc> ice cream koan
16:59:42 <elliott> Well, "cone" isn't pronounced ko-AN.
17:00:08 <Gregor> Yes, it's pronounced ko-ahn. That's not really enough to ruin the pun.
17:00:27 <kmc> a good pun is impossible to ruin
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17:03:33 <elliott> Gregor: Where's all the economy giraffes?
17:03:55 <Gregor> elliott: No soap, radio!
17:09:07 <kmc> radish sort
17:42:47 <elliott> kmc: look at this great haskell question http://stackoverflow.com/revisions/10521189/1
17:44:00 <kmc> how can i resist
17:44:25 <cheater_> you've trolled newbies a million times
17:44:40 <cheater_> you don't go for easy things like that any more
17:47:05 <kmc> elliott: nowhere is it advertised as a haskell question
17:47:38 <kmc> edited one minute ago by don stewart
17:48:32 <kmc> i like that it allows the input file to inject arbitrary code
17:48:34 <cheater_> i guess he's back from his hiatus
17:48:40 <cheater_> when are you back from your hiatus kmc
17:48:58 <kmc> arbitrary code injection is par for the course in C hacks
17:49:07 <kmc> but it takes some skill to get it in Python hacks
17:49:43 <kmc> "Convert it to a while loop. You are hitting recursion limits, basically, so if you remove the recursion, your problem should go away"
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17:53:57 <elliott> i didn't actually read the code
17:54:17 <HackEgo> rszeno: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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17:55:13 <rszeno> thank you elliot, alredy read it, this is why i'm here
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17:58:55 <zzo38> I say the free category is not a forward category transformer any more than the free monoid is a forward monoid transformer, but both are valid backward transformers.
17:59:48 <Ngevd> Category transformers: monads in disguise
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18:00:36 <zzo38> Ngevd: No, I mean functors, where it is a general functor which can act on any category to a new one, instead of a normal functor which is only from one category to another
18:01:05 <Ngevd> zzo38, I'm still less than a novice at category theory. I was making a Transformers pun
18:01:23 <zzo38> (The free monad is also a backward monad transformer, not a forward one)
18:02:32 <zzo38> Ngevd: Then learn, from Wikipedia and so on
18:04:52 -!- itidus20 has joined.
18:08:20 <Ngevd> itidus20, want to learn category theory with me?
18:08:55 <itidus20> probably not a good time considering i keep having connection dropouts
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18:10:19 <itidus20> i must say i have recently seen videos advising people about the difficulty of getting a math phd.. and i am probably more out of my ballpark than i realize
18:10:34 <itidus20> even though, category theory is 2 innocent words.. both of which i already feel familiar with
18:11:06 <Ngevd> Words mean little, they only work in combination
18:11:08 <itidus20> category being.. lets say.. horror movies.. versus romance movies.. theory being
18:11:50 <itidus20> for people like me it's an imagined explanation for something... more formally it means something more formal
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18:13:38 <itidus20> i assume (wrongly) that all i need to know about category theory could be summarized in 2 - 3 neat paragraphs written in simple english.
18:13:52 <nortti> http://esolangs.org/wiki/♦ dafuk
18:14:16 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:♦
18:14:57 <elliott> If you don't want a confusing page that breaks the site layout like that, bring it up on the talk page :P
18:16:24 <zzo38> itidus20: If you think so, then see if the Simple English Wikipedia has such an article
18:16:31 -!- Ngevd has joined.
18:17:05 <zzo38> Then look at the normal Wikipedia
18:17:31 <itidus20> i probably couldn't learn it in 5 years
18:18:30 <itidus20> i havent tested my intellect.. i don't know in practice what i am capable of or not
18:18:58 <itidus20> the ability to overcome laziness certainly must help a lot.. and easily discountable
18:20:51 <zzo38> Simply, a category consists of a set of objects, and morphisms, each of which has a source and target. If you have a morphism with source A and target B, and another with source B and target C, they can be composed, and composition is associative. There is also an identity morphism for each object, with the source and target both that object.
18:21:19 <zzo38> That is what it is. Is this OK?
18:24:37 <elliott> I didn't know that was possible.
18:25:01 <elliott> 19:24 <playings> I have to login there at mantis main_page. My online gaming account does not seem to qualify for this
18:31:14 <nortti> remotely rebooting machine is a bit strange experience
18:31:49 <elliott> Oh, pyralspite finally died.
18:32:04 <elliott> Or at least, it doesn't respond to pings.
18:32:35 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/ieMS weird
18:39:46 <zzo38> I don't like Haskell's deleteBy function; whose idea was that? I have replaced them by: deleteF :: MonadLogic m => (x -> Bool) -> m x -> m x;
18:40:55 <rszeno> elliot: is up and running but reject icmp
18:40:59 <elliott> zzo38: congrats, you have replaced deleteBy with filter . (not .)
18:41:26 <elliott> rszeno: strange. its httpd is dead too. it's a VPS, so I guess the machine itself is down but their routing is doing something funny
18:41:34 <elliott> it'll probably disappear soon
18:41:36 <zzo38> elliott: No, it only delete the first one!!
18:42:18 <zzo38> (That is what the MonadLogic constraint is for, so that you can tell which one is first; if you don't care then you use MonadPlus, which is what my version of filter uses)
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18:52:08 <elliott> Taneb: Hey, remind me to ask Graue to redirect esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/* to the corresponding esolangs.org archive.
18:52:47 <cheater_> kmc: i thought of your brain feedback device when i saw: http://www.valkee.com/uk/science.html
18:55:19 <itidus20> brain feedback.. well i certainly have some views about such things which would not sit well
18:55:43 <oklopol> itidus20: category theory isn't really a very active field afaik
18:55:45 <itidus20> but naturally that means i am going to go ahead
18:55:59 <nortti> (think I (are s-expressions (pretty easy to understand)))
18:57:01 <itidus20> the slowness of the muscles of the fingers, and of the eyes scanning text, etc.. provides a buffer to prevent humans being overworked
18:57:24 <itidus20> but.. if the brain is reached directly bypassing the rest.. then the buffer is in danger
18:57:43 <zzo38> oklopol: However, category theory can make a lot of things! (Including, category with one object for a monoid, a thin category of a partial ordering (since they have the same laws), etc)
18:57:46 <oklopol> itidus20: well you've seen all you need to know about categories now, so let's do number theory. 0 is a number and if n is a number then S(n) is a number.
18:57:56 <itidus20> the work required will expand to meet the labour available, and everyone will basically be a lot sadder for it
18:59:01 <Taneb> elliott, I'm too busy trying not to fall asleep
19:00:00 <itidus20> and in all this, the whole concept of work as being intended to make life easier for humans in general (is this ever actually true?) will be lost.. further removed from potential utopia
19:00:49 <itidus20> oklopol: i didn't say i read what zzo said >:)
19:02:06 <oklopol> zzo38: for me at least, category theory is most useful in that you can describe certain ubiquitous phenomena with universal properties. because that is nice.
19:03:14 <itidus20> i don't need to say that.. sorry
19:04:56 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes, that is one of the things it does. But it also does a large number of other things.
19:06:47 <oklopol> i don't think the fact that groups, monoids and partial orders can be thought of as categories is very useful for the common working mathematician.
19:07:27 -!- esolang_1234 has joined.
19:08:21 <oklopol> "itidus20 and in all this, the whole concept of work as being intended to make life easier for humans in general (is this ever actually true?)..." it is true that work makes life easier for people, yes.
19:08:45 <oklopol> if no one worked, there would be nothing to eat.
19:09:09 -!- AnotherTest has left.
19:09:34 <lambdabot> esolang_1234: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:09:53 <oklopol> zzo38: btw disclaimer: it is possible that you know more about category theory than me, since i don't know anything about it.
19:10:11 <elliott> esolang_1234: I saw your messages in the logs; you can edit the wiki anonymously, you just have to fill out a CAPTCHA
19:10:23 <elliott> but the registration process is simple (it doesn't require an email or anything)
19:10:27 <oklopol> with category theory, i feel i have to mention this fact, since in all other branches of mathematics, none of you ever compare to my divine excellence.
19:10:33 <esolang_1234> But I really * Ack(4,3) don't like giving my ip address to the public.
19:10:43 <oklopol> oerjan is just me in a disguise
19:10:47 <elliott> register an account, then; that doesn't expose your IP to anyone but administrators
19:11:05 <elliott> it's just a username and password :p
19:11:16 <elliott> hate to break it to you but
19:11:19 <elliott> 20:07 esolang_1234 has joined (40d8777d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.216.119.125)
19:11:23 <kmc> hi, i want to edit your website but i am unwilling to do it in any of the supported ways
19:11:32 <kmc> so plz accommodate me specially
19:11:54 <oklopol> could someone please put that ip on the front page
19:12:04 <elliott> a few people read the logs regularly... probably slightly less than read recentchanges
19:12:10 <oklopol> esolang_1234: anyway i'm like you, i understand.
19:12:14 <elliott> I'll hide the revision if anyone does
19:12:27 <oklopol> took me years to make an account, and i don't like using it
19:12:47 <Taneb> Oh, that reminds me
19:13:00 <elliott> esolang_1234: a few of the users (mostly me and oerjan) clean up pages formatting-wise after they're created
19:13:02 <Taneb> I still need to define Dilston
19:13:25 <esolang_1234> elliott: I'm at school, and esolangs.org is blocked
19:13:28 <Taneb> It's a hamlet to the East of Hexham
19:13:34 <elliott> we're blocked from schools? :D
19:13:37 <oklopol> elliott: don't do what btw, say things like that or actually do it?
19:13:46 <elliott> oklopol: don't put the IP on the main page
19:14:05 <oklopol> elliott: do you think i know how to do that? :D
19:14:05 <Taneb> oklopol, also a future esolang that can only be Turing complete if the collatz conjecture is false
19:14:11 <elliott> :( lame, they couldn't even give us a proper reason
19:14:16 <Taneb> esolang_1234, email of the people blocking?
19:14:18 <elliott> i bet they just block all wikis or someting
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19:15:10 <oklopol> elliott: it's all because brainfuck isn't censored.
19:15:10 <Taneb> esolang_1234, esolangs.org is blocked, but IRC isn't!?
19:15:14 <ais523> hi people who said hi to me
19:15:30 <elliott> oklopol: i'll move the page to b****fuck :)
19:15:43 <oklopol> okay, then i'm sure everything will be fine
19:15:48 <elliott> ais523: what about the people who neither said hi to you nor didn't?
19:16:03 <elliott> you phrased it in such a way as to avoid the excluded middle
19:16:10 <oklopol> so i was reading up on ordinals today
19:16:17 <Taneb> esolang_1234, weird
19:16:23 <elliott> I guess you could say that there could be elements of S in neither S nor S - T
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19:16:33 <Taneb> esolang_1234, can you upload a screenshot of the "this page is blocked" page?
19:16:36 <oklopol> i was like o__o the whole time
19:16:42 <elliott> Taneb: it'll probably be a boring standard thing
19:16:48 <elliott> I doubt anyone's gone out of their way to block esolangs.org specifically
19:16:52 <Taneb> elliott, at least there may be an email
19:16:54 <oklopol> and by that i mean i felt like an inverse skateboard
19:16:56 <elliott> it's not exactly a massively popular timewasting site...
19:17:01 <elliott> Taneb: they probably consider the block valid
19:17:36 <Taneb> esolang_1234, does the block page list an email address?
19:18:13 <Taneb> I remember once the recent pages page of the wiki was blocked in my school
19:18:16 <Taneb> For gambling reasons
19:18:24 <elliott> We do a lot of gambling on Esolang.
19:18:33 <Taneb> http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff508/Taneb/ohno.png
19:19:01 <Taneb> Yes, the office was closed
19:19:02 <elliott> Man, remember when the c in Special:Recentchanges was lowercase?
19:19:02 <kmc> "i bet you $50 the next esolang is a brainfuck derivative"
19:20:13 <elliott> shachaf: Have you been sending me /msgs?
19:20:25 <cheater_> what properties would a language need so that the cost of execution of a program can be calculated
19:20:29 <oklopol> was esolang_1234 going to up a lang or what was this about, i haven't really been reading any of the lines?
19:21:13 <Taneb> esolang_1234, been done at least twice?
19:21:43 <nortti> Taneb: three times at leadt
19:21:46 <oklopol> does "don't take my idea" imply "and that's it", because it sounds like it
19:21:59 <elliott> esolang_1234: but that's what one of My Name is Johny, What the F**K?'s designs was basde on too!
19:22:03 <elliott> you might want to check out WireWorld, btw
19:22:11 <elliott> which we don't have an article on; what an injustice
19:22:27 <Taneb> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sir._Cut for one
19:22:28 <oklopol> or do you have a CRAZY twist
19:22:31 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Noit_o%27_mnain_worb too, perhaps
19:22:34 <oklopol> does your language have ordinals
19:23:01 <esolang_1234> Well, mines more like (-1,-1)Input (0,0)Xor (1,1)Out (-1,-1)>(0,0) (0,0)>(1,1)
19:23:17 <ion> Finished Portal 1. It was very good but quite short.
19:25:13 <esolang_1234> Basicly, signals travel on wires, and get input at STDin and output at SDTout
19:26:16 <esolang_1234> Not=If no sig, sig Or=If at least one sig, sig And=If all possible sigs, sig (like vNCA) Xor=If sum of sigs is odd, sig
19:27:24 <esolang_1234> and if you make a page for it, (IDK if you don't) can you name it LogicWire?
19:27:41 <esolang_1234> Lol, like anyone would want to make a page for it.
19:28:15 <oklopol> how much do you know about logical circuits?
19:28:33 <nortti> esolang_1234: why do you think it is TC?
19:28:42 <elliott> esolang_1234: does it have any kind of looping?
19:28:48 <oklopol> flip flop is already something
19:28:50 <elliott> can you write a program that runs forever, for instance?
19:28:58 <esolang_1234> Each sig affects the logic gates it points too.
19:29:14 <oklopol> if there's a concept of time, then this is probably tc
19:29:29 <esolang_1234> Just make a loop with Or gates, and connect one of the wires to STDout.
19:29:35 <oklopol> in the sense that a periodic infinite configuration can do arbitrary computation
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19:29:47 <nortti> esolang_1234: is is possible to use unlimited amount of memory
19:30:27 <esolang_1234> Well, I guess you should be able to define unlimited wires.
19:31:57 <nortti> esolang_1234: unlimited as in unbouded storage machine's tape, not as in LBA's tape
19:32:52 <nortti> esolang_1234: seems like it
19:33:43 <oklopol> if you allow a way to describe infinite configurations, this will be more interesting though.
19:34:06 <nortti> "Crowd of people gathered on a street to watch two criminals being hanged to death, which was like the 19th century equivalent of a reality show (but somehow more tasteful)."
19:34:20 <oklopol> it's not really something that's been explored much
19:35:45 <esolang_1234> I don't know. I never thought this would be so confusing. Well, I guess it doesn't have to be TC
19:36:16 <oklopol> see if, once the program has been written, there's a limit on the amount of states where it can be during the run of the program, then you cannot have TCness with most definitions.
19:36:16 <esolang_1234> And making a copy command will make the interpreter solve the halting problem.
19:37:21 <esolang_1234> Of course, makeing a build "gate" might make it TC, but it would be TC (too complicated).
19:37:59 <oklopol> because if you can bound the maximal number of states the program can use before you start running it, then you can, algorithmically, decide whether it halts or not (or whether it will behave in a certain way)
19:38:27 <oklopol> i don't really get what you're saying
19:38:35 <oklopol> why would the interpreter need to solve the halting problem?
19:38:38 <nortti> esolang_1234: how does adding copy command make interpreter solve halting problem?
19:39:22 <esolang_1234> IDK. I was thinking about mutiple TMs interacting.
19:39:49 <oklopol> okay i was thinking about butterflies when i wrote mine
19:40:30 <esolang_1234> but "LogicWire" isn't TC, so its probably not possible.
19:40:59 <esolang_1234> And you might not be able to see them. Remember the first GoL metacell?
19:41:14 <oklopol> i don't know what logicwire is
19:41:26 <oklopol> might not be able to see what?
19:41:34 <oklopol> i remember _a_ gol metacell
19:41:44 <oklopol> or rather, i remember that one exists
19:41:55 <esolang_1234> conwaylife.com is blocked, so I can't link it :(
19:43:31 <oklopol> i didn't know about this wiki, should probably look at it :D
19:44:15 <oklopol> http://conwaylife.com/wiki/Topology okay this wiki sucks
19:44:32 <oklopol> (topology is the main tool in the study of cellular automata)
19:44:56 <oklopol> and that's not even about the topology that's used
19:45:07 <elliott> oklopol: lifewiki is mainly focused on documenting the patterns
19:45:28 <oklopol> still worth taking a glance at
19:46:15 <elliott> oklopol: Did you see http://conwaylife.com/wiki/Gemini when it came out?
19:46:27 <elliott> It's a replicator-based spaceship.
19:46:43 <elliott> (The first replicating pattern constructed; it replicates itself and then deletes the praent.)
19:47:01 <oklopol> elliott: still, having a topology page like that is like if conservapedia had a page on god that said "God is a concept in theoretical religion theory."
19:47:16 <oklopol> except topology is so much better than god
19:47:31 <elliott> "God is the sovereign creator and eternal ruler of all things and beings that exist, whether in the physical universe or in the spiritual realm (Heaven). Not only is God the creator and ruler of the things and beings within those two realms, but he is also the creator of the realms themselves. God created the physical universe, and before he acted in this creation, the universe did not exist. Likewise God did with the spiritual realm.
19:48:13 <oklopol> well pretty much what you expected, no?
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19:49:30 <kmc> that paragraph reads like legal boilerplate
19:50:27 <nortti> yeah. I still can't believe conservapedia is not a joke
19:50:42 <oklopol> yeah unlike those many other paragraphs on god that mean something
19:50:45 <kmc> i assume at least large parts of it are
19:51:02 <elliott> There are really only about six serious editors of Conservapedia.
19:51:24 <elliott> But they're all sufficiently mad that it's highly likely they consider many satirical edits legitimate.
19:51:40 <oklopol> http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.6902 have you seen this
19:51:42 <ais523> do they still have the threat to sue anyone who vandalises it?
19:51:47 <kmc> i thought a lot of it was written by homeschooled christian kids
19:52:01 <elliott> Did you know Conservapedia disproved relativity as liberal?
19:52:06 <kmc> oklopol: lolwut
19:52:06 <elliott> http://conservapedia.com/E%3Dmc²
19:52:08 <kmc> i love arxiv so much
19:52:14 <elliott> E=mc² is a meaningless, almost nonsensical, statement that purports to relate all matter to light.[1] In fact, no theory has successfully unified the laws governing mass (i.e., gravity) with the laws governing light (i.e., electromagnetism), and numerous attempts to derive E=mc² in general from first principles have failed.[2] Political pressure, however, has since made it impossible for anyone pursuing an academic career in science
19:52:14 <elliott> to even question the validity of this nonsensical equation. Simply put, E=mc² is liberal claptrap[3] .
19:52:19 <kmc> elliott: relativity = moral relativsm
19:52:22 <elliott> (That's not trolling, most of that was actually written by Schlafly.)
19:52:29 <elliott> It continues: "Biblical Scientific Foreknowledge predicts that a unified theory of all the laws of physics is impossible, because light and matter were created at different times, in different ways, as described in the Book of Genesis."
19:52:31 <oklopol> the author is not a crackpot btw
19:52:39 <elliott> See also: http://conservapedia.com/Counterexamples_to_Relativity
19:52:50 <elliott> "In Genesis 1:6-8, we are told that one of God's first creations was a firmament in the heavens. This likely refers to the creation of the luminiferous aether."
19:53:28 <elliott> kmc: "Comments:Please note that the publication date is April 1st 2012"
19:53:40 <elliott> I wonder if arxiv adds that automatically.
19:54:27 <elliott> Really, Conservapedia would be much less entertaining if it was just Fox News: the wiki.
19:54:34 <elliott> It's far worse than that in reality.
19:54:37 <oklopol> also it's very tastefully done, i liked it
19:54:51 <nortti> also read conservapedia's articles on evolution, atheism and socialism
19:55:43 <elliott> nortti: No, those are all the boring, tame stuff.
19:56:39 <oklopol> does it at least define atheist as someone who worships the devil
19:57:26 <kmc> the demon god Atheor
19:57:27 <elliott> "Atheism, as defined by the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, and other philosophy reference works, is the denial of the existence of God.[2][3][4]" *yawn*
19:57:39 <kmc> anyway I think quoting conservapedia is poor form
19:57:44 <kmc> trolling by proxy
19:57:45 <oklopol> they're being wrong wrong.
19:58:15 <elliott> kmc: Most trolls are not nearly as entertaining as Conservapedia.
19:58:28 <elliott> Especially IRC trolls. I'm upping the standards!
20:00:46 <oklopol> playing with ordinals feels so wrong... and yet somehow so, so right.
20:01:12 <elliott> http://conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_obesity Okay, I'll give them credit for this title.
20:01:23 <elliott> Wow, it's 49 sections long.
20:01:35 <elliott> "Stephen Fry is a homosexual and an atheist." Good caption.
20:02:44 <Sgeo_> I feel like an outlier
20:03:01 <Sgeo_> I still don't quite understand their point, though
20:03:16 <kmc> that's like http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:SIR_448_at_Great_Kills_Station.jpg&oldid=61691747
20:03:35 <nortti> "Their irrational closed-mindedness against the Bible obstructs the advancement of science ."
20:04:01 <kmc> "accurate but does not describe picture"
20:04:39 <nortti> http://conservapedia.com/Biblical_Scientific_Foreknowledge
20:09:56 <nortti> http://conservapedia.com/Feminist "often condemn the God-Given order of gender roles, as laid out in the Holy Bible" :D
20:11:04 <elliott> http://conservapedia.com/Essay:_Penn_Jillette%27s_walrus_slide_vs._thin_Indian_Christian_lady_dancers Nobody tell me what this article is about, I want to enjoy it solely based on the title.
20:12:00 <oklopol> holy shit these guys are retardedaiosdjfoasdjfoasdjfklasdjl;f
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20:12:44 <oklopol> Unlike atheists, Christians have a great many songs including dance music.
20:14:05 <oklopol> okay the walrus side article is perhaps the most insane thing i've ever seen.
20:17:14 <oklopol> seriously, that has to be a joke
20:19:11 <nortti> http://conservapedia.com/Global_warming
20:20:37 <rszeno> hm, http://conservapedia.com/Special:Statistics
20:22:03 <ais523> rszeno: does that have a conservative bias too?
20:22:36 <rszeno> i was thinking that at least are not so many, :)
20:23:32 <nortti> ais523: don't you know that there is no conservative bias. Jusl liberal lies and conservative truth!!!!!!111!!!!
20:24:15 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/b2wsEtbA
20:24:26 <mroman_> ^- Would that stand a chance being turing-complete?
20:24:30 <rszeno> remember me about comunist party from my country, small amount of people knowing everything, :)
20:27:22 <nortti> rszeno: whete do you live?
20:27:51 <rszeno> romania, :) is not communist anymore but it was
20:28:22 <rszeno> imo is no difference between fanatics
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20:28:55 <nortti> rszeno: I don't undesrtand your sentencw
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20:30:32 <rszeno> communist or religious like the ones from conservapedia.com when they are so sure they are right, is only fanatism
20:31:20 <nortti> rszeno: well actually romania has never been communist. It has only been "communist" (read: dictatorship)
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20:34:26 <fizzie> mroman_: It sounds like one-bit-cell brainfuck maps rather directly to the L, U, E, [, ], P, I instructions. (You'd stay in the leftmost branch all the time.)
20:34:38 <oklopol> mroman_: i don't see why it couldn't be possible
20:34:54 <fizzie> mroman_: Oh, I didn't read E properly. But anyway if you can flip from 1 to 0.
20:35:38 <oklopol> oh there was a loop instruction, i thought that was just a stub
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20:38:46 <ion> helliottaoeu
20:39:22 <oklopol> i will tell whatever i like whenever i like who is and isn't and when is and when is not someone asdf or not asdf.
20:40:44 <oklopol> seriously, dudde, take a fuck and U.
20:41:17 <mroman_> fizzie: You can flip depending on your location and the value under it, yes.
20:41:56 <ion> I’m too tired.
20:42:05 <ion> I’ve been awake for 22 hours.
20:42:18 <oklopol> i've been awake more than 13
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20:43:14 <oklopol> well that's good too, don't believe people if they call you an ass-dancing faggot because you've been awake only 6
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20:43:35 <oklopol> would be cool if your memory was just your location
20:43:44 <oklopol> so some kinda stack machine
20:43:46 <mroman_> by setting the left to 1 you can always flip the right.
20:43:55 <oklopol> then again this may be just due to my tree-walking automata fetish
20:44:06 <mroman_> Brainfucks > would probably be then R
20:45:39 <mroman_> LEEE to set up left to 1 and not flipping the right.
20:45:44 <mroman_> then E again to actually flip
20:45:45 <oklopol> a two-headed tree automaton can simulate a binary tape which i guess is kind of fun
20:46:40 <mroman_> so it is one-bit-brainfuck "compatible" yes :(
20:46:56 <mroman_> I don't like languages too easaly compatible to brainfuck variants.
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20:47:08 <mroman_> so back the drawing board :)
20:47:14 <mroman_> I want something with trees.
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20:49:14 <mroman_> oklopol: Location is memory. That means: The nodes contain no actually data?
20:49:33 <mroman_> My typo rate is awfully high tonight.
20:50:29 <oklopol> just a full infinite binary tree
20:50:43 <oklopol> a finite set of states and two heads
20:51:07 <oklopol> yeah, otherwise you just have a stack
20:52:01 <oklopol> yeah, which is as good as a tape (although way nicer to program for)
20:52:26 <mroman_> so, LRU (head 0) and lru (head 1)
20:52:43 <oklopol> then again it's enough to have two heads and a unary tree.
20:53:16 <mroman_> So it's just a comman tape.
20:53:42 <mroman_> "without data" fun is coming back.
20:53:43 <oklopol> so just http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_machine
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20:55:14 <oklopol> but if you have multiple heads on a dataless binary tree with only local interactions, you might get something fun
20:55:56 <oklopol> (my first two-head suggestion was the usual multiheaded automaton where you can read both heads at all times and change a global state based on that info)
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20:56:15 <oklopol> (here the local data is just whether you're in a left or a right child)
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20:57:20 <mroman_> If I have LRU and an H, which creates a new head at the root node.
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20:59:00 <mroman_> and some conditional instructions based on the location of the heads.
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20:59:46 <oklopol> yeah but then that's just a rather direct n-stacks thing
20:59:46 <mroman_> That might in fact be fun.
21:00:13 <ion> Too much Crawl? I interpreted “:c” someone said as “a book, a centaur”.
21:00:36 <oklopol> the heads should be running different programs, and only seeing each other when close enough
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21:08:41 <elliott> ais523: welcome to washington dc!
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21:17:40 <elliott> Gregor: I forget, did you have an opinion on the quote identifier issue?
21:18:34 <Gregor> Apr 28 11:12:28 <Gregor> " is the best identifier.
21:18:50 <elliott> ...not that kind of quote identifier.
21:21:40 <nortti> what kind of quote insentifier then?
21:22:03 <HackEgo> 552) <monqy> game where you flip a coin but it's really really big
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21:23:40 <tswett> ais523: happy 5:23 EDT.
21:23:49 <HackEgo> tswett: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:24:04 <ais523> tswett: heh, I get amused when I look at the clock and it's a numerically significant time (sometimes 5:23)
21:24:31 <elliott> ais523: Were you born at 05:23?
21:24:52 <ais523> can't remember, it was so long ago…
21:24:59 <ais523> don't think I could read then either
21:25:03 <elliott> So you *might* have been born at 05:23?
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21:25:15 <tswett> I might have been born at 05:23.
21:25:21 <oerjan> ais523: you don't have a watch that says DIE every wednesday just after midnight, i assume
21:25:25 <tswett> I know it was early in the morning.
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21:26:00 <ais523> oerjan: I don't have a wristwatch at all, nor a functioning pocketwatch (and arguably not a nonfunctioning pocketwatch depending on your definition)
21:26:50 <oerjan> elliott: it's basically the first three letters of the weekday for the previous day, in german.
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21:27:08 <elliott> oerjan: wait, I recall you saying something like this before.
21:28:05 <oerjan> right now it says WED. in a few hours it will briefly say MIT.
21:30:05 <oerjan> the brand is lorus, fwiw.
21:31:04 <elliott> So why does it show those, exactly?
21:32:36 <oerjan> presumably it has both english and german weekday markings, and every day after midnight it briefly passes over the language you haven't adjusted it for
21:33:35 <oerjan> as it rotates the ring with the markings
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21:38:53 <ais523> oerjan: are you two hours east of me, then?
21:39:07 <ais523> or are you just anticipating it to happen at the end of tohour?
21:39:35 <oerjan> anticipating, and it's not _exactly_ at midnight.
21:39:54 <oerjan> and by "briefly", i mean possibly a couple of hours.
21:40:10 <lambdabot> Local time for ais523 is Wed May 9 22:40:10 2012
21:40:11 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Wed May 9 23:40:11 2012
21:40:23 <ais523> I was assuming one too
21:40:24 <oerjan> i see the date number has already started changing
21:40:53 <oerjan> i think that depends on the clock, elliott
21:41:49 <oerjan> presumably it has a quartz crystal or something, but then translates that into mechanical movement.
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21:43:32 <ais523> well, digital clocks work the same way computers do
21:43:38 <ais523> completely mechanical clocks use gears
21:43:50 <ais523> but I imagine they're commonly somewhere in between nowadays
21:44:52 <oerjan> it has a battery, at least.
21:45:42 <elliott> i was assuming it was clockwork for some reason
21:45:44 <ais523> hmm, do wrist-sundials actually exist?
21:45:54 <elliott> can you get clockwork watches
21:46:09 <ais523> elliott: yes, they exist, although I'm not sure how popular they are nowadays
21:46:14 <ais523> you have to wind them up every now and then
21:46:17 <elliott> googling just turns up some stupid steampunk crap
21:46:23 <elliott> ones that go on your wrist
21:46:57 <ais523> all watches were like that once
21:47:00 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Wrist_Watch_WWI.jpg wow way to make it fucking impossible to read with a metal thing
21:47:02 <ais523> they're not so popular nowadays, though
21:47:22 <elliott> ais523: YES THANK YOU FOR THE HISTORY LESSON but pocket watches were what used to be popular aiui
21:47:39 <elliott> and i didn't know if anyone made wristwatches before we figured out how to power them with fire
21:47:44 <ais523> elliott: within my lifetime once
21:47:49 <ais523> not entirely sure if within yours
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21:48:09 <ais523> "all watches were like that once"
21:48:12 <ais523> well, maybe not /all/ of them
21:48:17 <ais523> but they were still pretty common when I was young
21:48:59 <ais523> elliott: luckily there are some older people around
21:49:20 <ais523> 40 years ago is the right timeframe for mechanical wristwatches dominating, it seems
21:49:50 <elliott> "Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-two million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea."
21:52:24 <elliott> not as old as oerjan though
21:52:42 <ais523> the watches probably weren't available when I was young, come to think of it
21:52:57 <ais523> but 40-year-old watches were pretty expensive when new, and also pretty durable
21:53:00 <ais523> so there are some around
21:53:09 <ais523> and purely mechanical watches, isn't that what this discussion is about?
21:53:41 * oerjan vaguely recalls having hand-cranked watches at one time
21:54:02 <rszeno> i have a pocket watch and few wirst watches, all mechanical
21:54:48 <rszeno> to be honest i dislike all this digital stuff, :)
21:54:51 <elliott> pls tell me you use a mechanical typewriter w/ your computer too
21:56:04 <ais523> I've seen mechanical typewriters, but never used one
21:56:11 * oerjan had a mechanical typewriter once
21:56:24 <ais523> I've used a mostly mechanical typewriter that had some electronics in, you typed a line at a time then it printed it out
21:56:32 <rszeno> i start programing with this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_card, :)
21:56:36 <ais523> sort-of like typewriter keyboard -> microcontroller -> daisywheel printer
21:56:43 <nortti> http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/freedom.jpg
21:56:54 <ais523> rszeno: my parents were programming on punch cards when I was very young, they gave me some (unpunched) ones to play with
21:57:08 <elliott> If only Babbage had built the Analytical Engine, then rszeno's dream would have been realised.
21:57:39 <elliott> ais523: You... played with punchcards?
21:57:42 <elliott> They're not very exciting.
21:57:56 <ais523> I used to post them through chairs, apparently
21:58:09 <ais523> very young children are amused by things like that, apparently even if they're me
21:59:14 <ais523> elliott: that comment you just made /also/ explains a lot and I'm not sure what
21:59:29 <ais523> hm, you hate past-elliott, right?
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22:00:13 <elliott> He's not nearly as bad as present coppro.
22:00:55 <ais523> I don't really hate past-ais523
22:00:58 <ais523> they were pretty naive
22:01:08 <ais523> but not really hateable
22:01:37 <elliott> coppro: If you become President, I'm leaving America forever.
22:03:23 <elliott> coppro: By the way, please make Agora not boring.
22:04:09 <elliott> You may enlist ais523 for help.
22:04:31 <ais523> elliott: but you aren't in America?
22:04:40 <ais523> you'd have to go there first in order to leave it again
22:04:44 <coppro> ais523: he'll go to America just so that he can... yeah
22:04:45 * ais523 refuses to travel to the US
22:05:04 <coppro> ais523: he can even do it in style and get deported
22:05:15 <coppro> purpose of trip: "deportation"
22:05:19 <ais523> actually, I dislike international travel a lot, it seems so heavily unnecessary
22:05:27 <ais523> abroad is depressingly similar to nearby
22:05:28 <coppro> ais523: by which you mean overseas?
22:05:35 <coppro> or all international travel?
22:05:40 <ais523> coppro: I live on an island, there's no distinction
22:06:01 <coppro> do you include Europe?
22:06:11 <ais523> I include everywhere non-UK
22:06:18 <ais523> dislike travelling much even within the UK
22:06:38 <ais523> I'm happier if I'm within walking distance of home (that is, I /could/ walk it, not necessarily that I actually /do/)
22:06:39 <coppro> travelling is sometimes needed for colocation
22:06:47 <ais523> what do you mean by colocation, here?
22:06:57 <coppro> being in the same place as someone else
22:07:08 <ais523> isn't that what the Internet's for?
22:08:58 <coppro> there's a reason conferences generally haven't gone digital
22:09:42 <ais523> I haven't found it yet
22:09:53 <ais523> going off to Canada for a conference disrupted my life for several weeks
22:09:53 <coppro> for starters, you can't chat over dinner
22:10:05 <coppro> overseas is nasty due to the really large travel time
22:10:20 <ais523> I couldn't chat there over dinner either, almost bankrupted by the first one
22:10:27 <ais523> and then spent most of my mealtimes eating at Subway
22:10:53 <ais523> I was too moral to claim it on expenses because I would have needed to eat anyway
22:11:56 <ais523> academic expenses are pretty much all a scam, apart from travel (and accommodation if that's necessary, e.g. when going abroad)
22:15:02 <coppro> yeah, but the standard is that you get to claim them
22:15:39 <coppro> yet as a general rule, eating out isn't that much more costly than cooking yourself if you factor the time in
22:16:25 <ais523> well, I eat "out" at lunch pretty much every day, although it's typically university canteen or supermarket ready meal
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22:21:36 <elliott> ais523: I assign you to cleaning up [[list of ideas]]
22:21:48 <ais523> elliott: I assign zzo38 to cleaning it up
22:23:46 <Sgeo> I'm tempted to ask for advice on what Star Trek episode me and my gf should watch
22:23:55 <Sgeo> (Not enough details in prior statement for actual advice)
22:26:31 <elliott> ais523: hi, welcome to Asia
22:26:58 <ais523> Sgeo: there are a few really really infamous ones
22:27:37 <Sgeo> Well, full details: She loves the Stargate franchise, but I don't think has seen any Star Trek, so what would appeal to her
22:27:50 <Sgeo> Although we're probably going to watch some SG-1 now
22:28:42 <ais523> wait, Sgeo has an actual girlfriend now?
22:29:35 <ais523> same person you were alluding to before, or someone else?
22:30:17 <Sgeo> When was the alluding?
22:31:13 <elliott> I think it was "alluded-to".
22:31:16 <Sgeo> If it was earlier ago than March, no
22:31:31 <ais523> `pastlog Sgeo.*alluded to
22:31:44 <oerjan> i think it was years ago
22:31:47 <HackEgo> 2010-12-21.txt:21:58:59: <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, I assume he assumed it was Alluded To Female.
22:32:05 <ais523> Sgeo: it was already a meme in december 2010, apparently
22:32:44 <elliott> ais523: how is to create javascript in xml???
22:33:05 <ais523> elliott: use a JS to XSLT compiler, I guess
22:34:30 <elliott> ais523: how to enable PHP with ajax and compiling
22:35:37 <ais523> bleh, can't think of a good and sufficiently facetious answer
22:36:08 <elliott> ais523: how to develop facebook with visual studio node.js
22:36:27 <ais523> elliott: first you need to go work at facebook
22:37:07 <ais523> they have competitions every now and then, facebook hacker cup
22:37:11 <ais523> you can search for it on bing
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22:50:53 <Sgeo> how to ask how to
22:51:01 <Sgeo> Oh, elliott already made that joke
23:00:07 -!- davidwerecat has quit (Quit: Quitting...).
23:02:19 <elliott> davidwerecat =/= david_werecat
23:15:20 <elliott> the wiki is nothing like #esoteric
23:16:27 <david_werecat> judging by the logs, looks a lot more social in here
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23:19:44 <elliott> the logs are all fabricated by Gregor
23:21:43 -!- david_werecat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:22:08 -!- david_werecat has joined.
23:26:34 <Gregor> It's a lot of work fabricating all those logs, but it helps me practice for my erotic fan fictions.
23:26:57 <elliott> Your erotic fan fictions read like IRC logs?
23:27:39 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:28:53 <david_werecat> if erotic fan fiction can be written like IRC, then I might still have some hope...
23:29:28 <elliott> Everyone knows the money is in erotic fan fiction.
23:29:43 <elliott> Gregor: P.S. "fictions" reads so awkwardly.
23:29:51 <elliott> Interestingly "fanfics" doesn't.
23:31:55 -!- rszeno has left.
23:33:14 <elliott> I defer to Gregor. He's the expert.
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23:34:50 <Gregor> He sat, nonchalantly, one finger running unthinkingly but tantalizingly up and down his strong, toned thigh. It wasn't unusual for oklopol to be here, waiting for elliott's arrival, but something was different today. oklopol was not typically nude.
23:35:26 <elliott> i think that line is probably illegal in several countries
23:36:33 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:38:09 <zzo38> Does someone stolen your clothing?
23:38:28 <elliott> monqy: i knew you'd be really sad if you didn't get updated on all the best #esoteric
23:39:16 <zzo38> Do you think this is a correct way? getBlocks n = sortBy (on antispecificness fst) . (>>= \(Declaration x y z) -> (y, z) <$ guard (n == x));
23:40:09 <monqy> im nothing but a jerk's ghost
23:40:28 <zzo38> monqy: How can you type on computer while dead, then?
23:41:32 <zzo38> Is it a crime for dead people to act as if still alive?
23:42:20 <monqy> yes im in ghost jail
23:42:42 <elliott> monqy: you missed a great tv
23:43:01 <elliott> someone tried to escape purgy by running up from D:4 and exiting the dungeon
23:43:14 <elliott> but they died on the upstairs leading out of the dungeon
23:43:37 <monqy> same outcome, really
23:43:43 <zzo38> Are some of the stairs broken?
23:44:08 <monqy> in ancient crawl you got more points for exiting alive but nowadays it's the same as any other death
23:44:19 <elliott> monqy: also someone else committed very slow suicide to a killer bee larva!
23:45:19 <monqy> 16:44:19 < CIA-97> elliptic * rfea3bfef4d52 /crawl-ref/source/aptitudes.h: Improve felid UC and Fighting apts.
23:45:25 <monqy> felids "un nefred"
23:45:46 <elliott> monqy: the joke is that elliptic is playing a felid right now
23:46:28 <monqy> 16:46:17 < CIA-97> kilobyte * rabd22f24f12b /crawl-ref/source/aptitudes.h: Nerf felid Summ aptitude: +1 -> 0
23:46:32 <monqy> felids "re nerfreD"
23:46:35 <elliott> i was just about to quote that
23:47:07 <elliott> by tomorrow felids will have a completely different set of aptitudes but be no better or worse
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23:51:49 <elliott> 00:51 <xnmojo> anyone have thoughts on my jackal sprites? http://i.imgur.com/xxKOi.png
23:52:16 <monqy> which are old and which are new help
23:52:30 <elliott> you also missed: that guy defending tiles!
23:53:07 <monqy> im not even going to pay attention
23:53:15 <monqy> tiles arguments are awful
23:53:29 <elliott> it didn't even become an argument everyone just snickered