00:04:36 -!- madbr has joined.
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00:07:38 <madbr> so what's the latest trend in esoteric langs
00:08:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:22:02 <ion> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4456438/how-can-i-pass-the-string-null-through-wsdl-soap-from-as3-to-coldfusion-web
00:29:23 -!- madbrrr has joined.
00:29:35 <qfr> ion lol that sounds messed up
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00:51:44 <Sgeo_> o.O PyPy is working on STM?
00:52:10 <Sgeo_> "(The goal is not to expose STM to the user's program.) " Darn
00:53:08 <ion> sgeo: URL?
00:53:13 <Sgeo_> http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2012/04/stm-update-and-thanks-everybody.html
00:53:23 <Sgeo_> shubshub, do you know what a thread is?
00:53:25 <monqy> shubshub: Software Transactional Monads
00:53:40 * shubshub slaps monqy with a rainbow trout
00:53:40 <ion> With arbitrary side effects everywhere, it would be probably much more difficult to expose STM to the user.
00:55:17 <ion> It seems to say they do expose some kind of an interface.
00:55:35 <Sgeo_> I didn't read the whole thing
00:56:04 <ion> The “transactions” module (which i didn’t look at).
00:57:38 * shubshub is working on a Numeric Batch Interpreter Programmed In !Py!Batch (The Python Interpreter For !!!Batch)
00:58:00 <shubshub> (sorry i mean the !!!Batch Interpreter for Python)
00:58:28 <shubshub> The !!!Batch Interpreter written in Batch Is shitty It cant do More than 1 Line without confuzzling its self
00:58:55 <shubshub> this new one doesnt even need to have any normal batch commands in it not even set str=
00:59:05 <shubshub> You Just type it all up and away you go :D
01:00:14 <shubshub> !Py!Batch will also be able to read Python Programs Written Using !!!Batch
01:06:08 <fungot> shubshub: you mean the get-foreign-binding??? hahahaha" and
01:06:24 <kmc> I Really can't Deal With Random caps
01:06:30 <kmc> it's Fucking With my Head
01:06:42 <kmc> It Would be Much better if You Used Shouty All caps
01:06:48 <fungot> itidus20: epiphany doesn't even have the word " flower", it didn't work
01:06:50 <kmc> Or Anything really
01:07:40 <kmc> yes that's better
01:08:15 <shachaf> kmc: Just don't call the all-cap-cop. :-(
01:09:55 <itidus20> fungot: There was an Old Man who said, 'Hush! I perceive a young bird in this bush!' When they said, 'Is it small?' He replied, 'Not at all! It is four times as big as the bush!'
01:09:55 <fungot> itidus20: it seems to be looked at in that way
01:10:10 <shachaf> MYJAPA得ぬESEI得ぬPUTMETHODMAKESiTVRATHERDi絵笛不iCU得るTTOTYPETHiSｗａｙ．
01:10:14 <fungot> shubshub: is it caused by intensive allocation? so if i want to
01:10:57 <fungot> itidus20: just for the global environment of the call/ cc
01:11:44 <fungot> quintopia: be happy to help out with slava's stack-effect inferencer. hast thou a link? :) i don't understand
01:11:56 <fungot> shachaf: verily fnord, am i right in guessing that anonymous recursion would make this a snap. instantly fix photo flaws in just a tic...
01:12:17 <shachaf> fungot must be cheating. These sentences are too realistic.
01:12:18 <fungot> shachaf: i am new to fnord wrote a blog entry. i saw that in google
01:12:22 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:12:32 <fungot> shachaf: it's ircd. :p
01:12:45 <fungot> shachaf: but the brackets are reversed
01:13:01 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
01:13:20 <quintopia> fungot, what dost thou think of death?
01:13:21 <fungot> quintopia: " very fnord of you,' said nanny, as much part of the scaffolding." hah! you can't do dat,' said vimes, walking around the figure.
01:13:36 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
01:13:50 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:13:53 <fungot> shubshub: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there
01:14:04 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:14:09 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
01:14:37 <fungot> itidus20: but it supports virtually every x estension on any host. it can in most real systems, which allow you to say what are most popular but certainly free software related channels are more popular
01:14:41 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
01:15:46 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
01:15:51 <fungot> shubshub: oznaczono jako spam holy flip shotgun thing looked shit hot. what the hell? dark angels? ( watching smoz tuck his tail)
01:15:59 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
01:16:12 <quintopia> fizzie: can fungot have a ^tweet command?
01:16:13 <fungot> quintopia: this accident in live, go to the game
01:31:44 <madbr> still haven't figured how to garbage collect my language :(
01:36:59 <madbr> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fatmouse
01:37:30 <madbr> madoka: it's harder than that in my case
01:37:41 <madbr> since variables never go out of scope
01:37:57 <madbr> you have to figure out when a variable becomes a "dead end"
01:38:06 <madbr> ie can't produce any more new variables
01:38:12 <madbr> in which case it can be collected
01:44:17 <madbr> It's a lot harder than in java or stuff
01:44:29 <madbr> where eventually you run out of referrences
01:44:43 <olsner> 1. delete language, 2. garbage collected?
01:46:19 <madbr> yeah that's totally going to loop
01:46:30 <madbr> it is turing complete
01:47:43 <Madoka-Kaname> madbr, are you sure determining if a variable can still be used isn't Turing complete?
01:48:13 <madbr> I'm afraid it might involve solving the halting problem or something like that yeah :(
01:49:51 <Madoka-Kaname> test only ever goes out of scope if test2 halts, right?
01:50:46 <Madoka-Kaname> madbr, if all variables that can reference a variable are consumed, it's dead.
01:50:52 <Madoka-Kaname> But, I have no clue how you could apply that to arrays
01:51:14 <madbr> I think you can't solve all the cases
01:51:22 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: brb).
01:51:43 <madbr> but you can at least solve the case where one of the indexes is always higher on new instances
01:52:53 <madbr> like on an array that's duplicated on each iteration, you can find out that newly produced variables always have a higher iteration index, and figure out when a whole iteration is "dead"
01:54:04 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
01:54:09 <madbr> test.1.1 and test.1.1.1 are different arrays no?
01:54:44 <Madoka-Kaname> They share the same name, but, have different dimensions
01:55:46 <madbr> I guess test.1.1 should die once test.1.1.1 exists
01:56:19 <Madoka-Kaname> madbr: How do you plan on implementing this language?
01:56:26 <madbr> that's the problem
01:56:43 <madbr> I'll probably restrict iterators
01:56:57 <Madoka-Kaname> To represent the entire Fatmouse as [Variable -> Bool]
01:57:29 <madbr> to something like "don't make arrays with infinite amounts of data in them"
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01:58:22 <madbr> plus at least one of the iterators has to have real values in some array
01:58:46 <madbr> but yeah the real problem is garbage collecting the whole thing
01:58:54 <madbr> the other stuff is a challenge
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01:58:58 <Madoka-Kaname> Would it be possible to solve using algebra or something all the possible valid values?
02:02:20 <madbr> then it looks at all the values in test2
02:02:28 <madbr> each one gives a value to i
02:03:11 <madbr> yeah I don't think I could solve all the cases but maybe the easier ones
02:03:39 <madbr> ie "the compiler solves some cases but only really simple ones"
02:03:43 <Madoka-Kaname> I'm /pretty sure/ you can reduce everything there to rational expressions?
02:03:53 <madbr> otherwise you just have to write
02:04:38 <madbr> ie "every iterator must appear plain at least once in one of the conditions"
02:06:39 <Madoka-Kaname> You treat test3.i+6 as a condition-- you already have i
02:07:48 <madbr> but what if the user asks for
02:07:49 <madbr> test.i test.(4 + 5*i - 3*i*i + 2*i*i*i - 9*i*i*i*i + 7*i*i*i*i*i)
02:08:05 <madbr> test.i test2.(4 + 5*i - 3*i*i + 2*i*i*i - 9*i*i*i*i + 7*i*i*i*i*i)
02:09:09 <shubshub> we are all speaking our own programming langauges'\
02:09:27 <madbr> I guess the compiler would have to return an error along the lines of "I'm not matlab" :D
02:13:04 <itidus20> printf("1 = 0.");while(1)printf("9");
02:13:17 <madbr> var.x.y.z (x*x*x + y*y*y - z*z*z)=0
02:14:23 <madbr> yeah I have to update the page
02:14:39 <madbr> I'll probably want to switch the syntax from
02:14:54 <madbr> result.x.y condition.x condition2.y
02:15:03 <Madoka-Kaname> It amounts to a programming language that, in the long run, is basically a (logic programming?) language that requires a lot of high-level math to solve.
02:15:06 <madbr> condition.x condition.y
02:15:21 <madbr> (with python style indentation)
02:16:34 <madbr> but there's always at least one output
02:16:40 <madbr> does the program halt or not
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02:19:38 <Madoka-Kaname> The really problematic case is equations in the form of test.a.b + math on a and b without any limits
02:21:31 <madbr> is that prolog or something?
02:23:49 <Madoka-Kaname> Think of it as a function definition var(x,y,z) = (x*x*x + y*y*y - z*z*z)==0
02:26:21 -!- tswett has changed nick to absentswett.
02:32:13 <shubshub> !!!Batch: !Py!Batch Updated To Version 1.2: More Code Added monqy Sgeo
02:36:16 <shubshub> madbr: would you be able to make a !!!Batch interpreter in Fatmouse?
02:40:48 <Madoka-Kaname> madbr, I'm reasonably certain that you can treat the individual arrays as functions.
02:42:13 <shubshub> How would I make a Programming Language iN Python?
02:48:25 <shubshub> Hey I have a question: is It Possible to make a programming language in another Programming Language that has features that the Language its made in couldnt perform
02:48:53 <Gregor> Also, "features" and "perform"
02:49:13 <shubshub> couldn't meaning the Original language Could not perform the function in any way shape or form no matter how hard u tried
02:49:43 <Sgeo_> shubshub, well, a compiler could. You could make a compiler that only reads standard input and output, yet outputs code that can do things
02:49:50 <Sgeo_> Such as manipulate hardware
02:50:57 <Sgeo_> Suppose I have some language where each line is a URL, and it outputs the page
02:51:10 <TeruFSX> if the language cannot perform these in any way, it's impossible
02:51:46 <Sgeo_> I could make a compiler for that language, which, itself, is not able to access the web. Maybe the language it's written in doesn't have network access. However, it could write code to disk and this code, itself, can access the network
02:52:10 <Sgeo_> So compiler (with no net access) takes URLang and converts it to a .exe which does have net access
02:52:13 <TeruFSX> that's accurate, i was also going to say that would mean that you can't interpret it
02:52:23 <Sgeo_> shubshub, it's because the compiler is just translating from one language to another
02:52:36 <Sgeo_> It itself does not need to perform the functions written in the language it's compiling
02:53:48 <shubshub> Hey Sgeo_ you any good at Python maybe you could help me make a Language in it
02:54:01 <TeruFSX> first, what do you want this language to do
02:54:11 <TeruFSX> second, are you going to compile or interpret it
02:54:32 <Sgeo_> shubshub, first, I want you to realize something. You can describe a language in English, using your words, without actually being able to use that language
02:54:44 <shubshub> Interpret it first also I want it to Pretty Much extend off Python and do features that Python can do But with less coding
02:54:57 <Sgeo_> In fact, there are several languages on the wiki, in which programs in those languages can never be run.
02:55:25 <TeruFSX> some require impossible things, such as solving the halting problem
02:55:28 <Sgeo_> shubshub, because they require "features" as you might call them which no program running on hardware as we know it can do.
02:55:44 <shubshub> lolol but one day they will be able to run?
02:55:56 <Sgeo_> And these aren't features like "Go access the Internet", but actual calculations so to speak
02:56:11 <kmc> solving the halting problem is actually impossible
02:56:17 <kmc> given a basic metaphysical assumption
02:56:39 <Sgeo_> shubshub, at least, unless there's a major revolution in computing that overturns what we know... and even then, the same concept would extend over to these new weird computers
02:56:40 <shubshub> I want this Python Language to be an easier version of Python yet do everything Python can do with less programming
02:57:09 <Sgeo_> kmc, eh, is it proven that there's no possible computers in this universe more powerful than TC?
02:57:20 <kmc> that is the basic metaphysical assumption
02:57:34 <TeruFSX> what class is the halting problem again?
02:57:53 <kmc> recursively enumerable
02:58:21 <kmc> meaning you can write a turing machine which prints out all the halting turing machines, one by one, and never prints a non-halting one
02:58:51 <shubshub> so Sgeo_ can you help me make a new language?
02:59:05 <kmc> equivalently, meaning you can write a turing machine which takes a description of a turing machine and returns "yes" if that machine halts, and never returns "yes" if it doesn't halt
02:59:06 <Sgeo_> shubshub, not much, perhaps a little.
02:59:12 <kmc> (but it's allowed to loop forever rather than saying "no")
02:59:27 <Sgeo_> kmc, how is that equivalent?
02:59:41 <shubshub> Can Programming Languages Be Interpreted In Multiple Languages to make one large interpreter?
02:59:48 <Madoka-Kaname> A limited version of Fatmouse that doesn't allow expressions in the 'set' phrase.
03:00:02 <Madoka-Kaname> (i.e. you can't write array.x+1 array.x, only array.x array.x-1)
03:00:03 <Sgeo_> shubshub, I have no idea what that question means, but people have made programs that work in different languages
03:00:57 <shubshub> Make a Programming Language Interpreter using Multiple Languages To Be able to understand what the code of this New programming language does
03:01:57 <kmc> Sgeo_: one direction is, we have a TM to enumerate the strings of a language; we want a TM to recognize strings in that language
03:02:15 <kmc> we take a string and then run the enumerator until it spits out that string
03:02:23 <Madoka-Kaname> madbr, if you want Fatmouse to be truly uncompilable, allow expressions like this:
03:02:32 <kmc> if the string isn't in the language, we run forever, which is ok
03:03:03 <Madoka-Kaname> Well, not 'truly uncompilable', but, rather, 'hard to compile without lots of math'
03:03:10 <Sgeo_> kmc, it's the other direction I'm concerned about. Yes or loop forever is trivial
03:03:13 <kmc> the other direction is, we have the recognizer, we want an enumerator
03:03:35 <kmc> you simulate the recognizer on all possible inputs, in parallel
03:03:37 <kmc> which is to say
03:04:05 <kmc> TM step 0 of input 0
03:04:09 <kmc> TM step 0 of input 1
03:04:12 <kmc> TM step 1 of input 0
03:04:33 <Sgeo_> Ah, it was the parallel running thing that was confusing me of how it could possibly work
03:04:45 <Sgeo_> I was thinking "You'd have to try them in serial"
03:05:04 <kmc> the parallel simulation thing is a really useful trick
03:05:43 <madbr> I thought it would be easier to evaluate if you let expressions everywhere except at least one of the instances of each iterator has to be in one of the input arrays without any computation
03:06:10 <madbr> so that you can pull out a list of possible values for each expression
03:07:53 <madbr> but then that's the reverse kind of language
03:08:14 <madbr> whereas your kind turns everything into functions I guess
03:09:38 <Madoka-Kaname> array.x.y.z x>5 array2.(x-2).y.z can be translated into
03:10:31 <Madoka-Kaname> var array$3$0: (Int, Int, Int) => Boolean = (x, y, z) => false
03:10:36 <shubshub> New Language Idea Name!: Venom Programming Language
03:11:17 <Madoka-Kaname> var array$3$1: (Int, Int, Int) => Boolean = (x, y, z) => array$3$0(x,y,z) || (x>5 && array2(x-2,y,z))
03:11:29 <kmc> shubshub: if you want to design a new language, you should start by learning a lot of existing ones
03:11:36 <kmc> otherwise you will make the same mistakes others have made
03:11:41 <monqy> Batch is a lot, ok
03:12:07 <shubshub> Im Not Making this new Language in Batch
03:12:31 <kmc> which is...?
03:12:54 <kmc> dude, i can't summarize how to design a good language in a couple of lines
03:12:57 <kmc> it's a huge topic
03:13:03 <kmc> many books and thousands of papers have been written about it
03:13:12 <kmc> but people don't read them
03:13:18 <kmc> and so the world is full of awful languages designed by amateurs
03:13:35 <Sgeo_> kmc, does it really make a big difference for esolangs?
03:14:07 <kmc> i wasn't talking about esolangs
03:14:29 <kmc> <shubshub> I want this Python Language to be an easier version of Python yet do everything Python can do with less programming
03:14:54 <kmc> i think inventing new languages is a great way to learn
03:15:01 <kmc> just don't expect to make a good one until you know a lot
03:15:09 <Sgeo_> kmc, I was considering making a language
03:15:19 <monqy> would it be good, Sgeo_
03:15:19 <kmc> shubshub: have you read this book? http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html
03:15:22 <Sgeo_> Goal not really to be good, just to be better than the only alternative
03:15:40 <monqy> what alternative, oh right that thing
03:15:55 <itidus20> kmc: is that a paraphrase or did he really say that? :P
03:16:34 * kmc thinks itidus20 and shubshub will get along great
03:16:36 <Sgeo_> Wait, shubshub does Ruby?
03:17:03 <Sgeo_> kmc, does Ruby count as having first-class functions, given the crappiness of blocks?
03:17:17 <ion> The crappiness of blocks?
03:17:22 <Sgeo_> shubshub, Smalltalk's a better language. Environment might not be so useful for implementing languages.
03:17:48 <Sgeo_> ion, they're non-first-class things that you can magically pass at the end of a method call
03:17:50 <ion> I mean, it’s better just to have a lightweight syntax for all lambdas instead of special sugar for the single-lambda-parameter case, but “crappiness”?
03:17:58 <kmc> Sgeo_: it has actual first-class functions too
03:18:28 <kmc> there's a function to turn a block into a first-class function, and you can call it with block syntax, so it's not much worse...
03:18:43 <kmc> blocks are interesting though, in that they capture the caller's continuation, sort of
03:19:23 <kmc> if you use "return" within a block
03:19:29 <kmc> it returns from the caller of the function that got the block
03:19:50 <kmc> that is from the lexically enclosing function of the block
03:19:53 <kmc> not from the block itself
03:20:11 <kmc> i remember someone on reddit wondering if in the far future there might be languages which let you capture "where to return to" as a first-class value :D
03:20:39 <kmc> anyway i haven't used ruby much, so some of the above might be wrong
03:20:41 * shubshub will make Venom using a Multitude Of Languages :D
03:21:21 <kmc> Will All the documentation Be Written In your Trademark Random capitalization Style?
03:21:41 <itidus20> it's probably not actually random
03:21:56 <kmc> itidus20: yeah, that's why it bugs me, i have to look for patterns
03:22:10 <shachaf> kmc: Agda is fun until you know something but don't know how to express it to the computer.
03:22:14 <itidus20> lol..............................
03:22:19 <shachaf> I guess that's true about learning a new language in general.
03:23:18 <kmc> but learning how to write functions so that things can be proven about them is a bigger fundamental shift than learning new stdlib IO functions or something
03:23:44 <kmc> even if you know Haskell, learning Agda has the same kind of brick-wall feeling that most people associate with learning Haskell :)
03:23:56 <shachaf> Well, you can prove things about any sort of function in Agda.
03:24:02 <shachaf> It's just that some are much easier than others.
03:24:41 <ion> These are pretty closely the same thing at varying levels of syntactic sugar:
03:24:43 <ion> def foo(f) f.call(42) end; foo(->(n) { puts "got #{n}" })
03:24:46 <ion> def foo(&f) f.call(42) end; foo {|n| puts "got #{n}" }
03:24:51 <ion> def foo() yield 42 end; foo {|n| puts "got #{n}" }
03:25:00 <shachaf> ion: They're not quite the same.
03:26:23 <shachaf> foo=->(&f){f.call(42)};foo.(&->(n){puts "got #{n}"})
03:26:25 <shubshub> the Variable Definer I Just Made can set about 10 Thousand Variables Every Minute
03:26:40 <shachaf> 10 Thousand Variables Every Minute
03:26:44 <shubshub> the variable definer is written in batch
03:26:55 <shachaf> that's as Many as 100 Hundreds
03:27:03 <Sgeo_> And that's terrible.
03:27:08 <ion> MORE THAN NINE THOUSAND
03:27:26 <kmc> the capitalization is eating away my brain
03:27:34 <shachaf> Sgeo_: You know what's terrible?
03:27:36 <ion> Sorry, i deserve to be kicked for saying “MORE THAN” instead of the correct “OVER”.
03:27:46 <monqy> I Think His Capitalization Is Pretty Nifty And/Or Neato :D
03:27:58 <itidus20> kmc: why are {the, can, set, about} uncapitalized?
03:28:02 <Sgeo_> monqy, that's not his capitalization?
03:28:30 <kmc> itidus20: i don't know!!
03:28:56 <shachaf> monqy: remberber the time when you implied I wasnt' good person :"(
03:29:01 <shubshub> what should be the max amount of variables for my language?
03:29:05 <itidus20> also.. for more agony, why did he elect to say "10 Thousand" instead of "Ten Thousand" or "10,000"
03:29:11 <monqy> shachaf: just like it was yesterday
03:29:11 <shubshub> No it needss to be more than 3
03:29:23 <shachaf> monqy: because it was yestreday
03:29:35 <kmc> anyone who needs more than 4 variables isn't a Real Programmer
03:29:41 <shachaf> kmc: I thought that was 3?
03:29:51 <kmc> shachaf: 30 thousand or 30 Thousand?
03:29:53 <ion> I’m trying to figure out what the alot of variables looks like.
03:30:14 <kmc> HoNeStLy EvEn MySpAcE CaPs WoUlD Be PrEfErAbLe
03:30:28 <ion> Probably pretty much like http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_D_Z-D2tzi14/S8TZcKXqR-I/AAAAAAAACwg/F7AqxDrPjhg/s1600/ALOT13.png but with various variable names instead of beer cans.
03:30:35 <shachaf> kmc: Your CaPs are way too regular.
03:30:55 <shachaf> It WOuLd bE BeTTeR lIKe thiS
03:31:05 <kmc> that would be not better
03:31:17 <monqy> hOIW abut tYPing lIOEk this??
03:31:18 <shachaf> I didn't say it would be better.
03:31:27 <shachaf> It would be "BeTTeR". Which is a word that means "worse".
03:31:40 <monqy> fyi, bETTER means BeTTer
03:31:40 <kmc> good to know
03:31:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23082
03:32:32 <shachaf> did you know: worcester is better
03:33:07 <shachaf> I'm going to Yosemite next weekend!
03:33:18 <monqy> 2012-04-26.txt:09:01:36: <shubshub> hi
03:33:19 <monqy> 2012-04-26.txt:09:01:59: <shubshub> anyone here????
03:33:19 <monqy> 2012-04-26.txt:09:02:43: <shubshub> I wanna Make my own version of brainfuck
03:33:19 <monqy> 2012-04-26.txt:09:03:04: <shubshub> whose PH
03:33:19 <monqy> 2012-04-26.txt:09:04:21: <shubshub> how do i make one
03:33:56 <shachaf> monqy: remrebrer twhen you said how predictable !
03:34:08 <monqy> remember when you ruined how predictable ! :(
03:34:22 <monqy> bad person evidence excibit A
03:34:30 <shubshub> alright the max variables is 6,000
03:34:47 <itidus20> shub.. sorry to mess with your way of expressing numbers
03:35:13 <monqy> I don't know what I'd even do with 6,000 variables
03:35:14 <shubshub> well its gonna be a big Language shachaf
03:35:17 <monqy> maybe build a house?
03:35:25 <monqy> then I could live in it
03:35:36 <monqy> it's enough variables, I could do it
03:35:36 <shachaf> monqy: do you live in a hosue
03:36:07 <TeruFSX> you should probably limit your variable amount in a more natural way, like how BASIC does it
03:36:21 <monqy> hey, 6,000 is perfectly natural
03:36:22 <shubshub> Python will be used to load everything Into the Language :D
03:36:59 <itidus20> shubshub: seriously.. it's fine to say 6 Thousand.. i was just being a bastard
03:37:34 <kmc> Colonel Exploits
03:37:50 <monqy> itidus20: were you trolling
03:38:32 <shachaf> monqy: I heard itidus2 turns to stone during the day
03:39:11 <shachaf> i hearde eliot has a hearte of stone :"
03:39:14 <kmc> i heard itidus1 gets stoned during the day
03:39:39 <shachaf> kmc: I thought that was you. :-(
03:40:02 <HackEgo> 697) <shachaf> You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes. <shachaf> `quote kmc <HackEgo> 686) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks <shachaf> Well, in theory.
03:40:15 <HackEgo> 133) <CakeProphet> how does a "DNA computer" work. <CakeProphet> von neumann machines? <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. <Phantom_Hoover> It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own.
03:40:39 <shachaf> kmc: I still have a file full of quotes from you that I was going to make an IRC bot out of.
03:40:46 <shachaf> But then you didn't like the idea so I stopped.
03:40:54 <shachaf> Also by "full" I mean 3-5 lines.
03:41:02 <shachaf> But it's the entirety of the file, so the file is full of them.
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04:23:40 <shubshub> so far my language loads Variables and a User Input
04:23:55 <kmc> that one is almost german capitalizatino
04:25:09 <kmc> that's not what happened
04:25:24 <kmc> i ducked and you fell over comically into a pile of english grammar books
04:30:16 <itidus20> "<shubshub> so far my language loads Variables and a User Input" !!!time to celebrate
04:30:43 <kmc> Time To celebrate
04:31:21 <kmc> TcIeMlEe bTrOa t e
04:31:52 <TeruFSX> could we see an example program in this language, as it stands right now?
04:32:21 <shubshub> Its not able to do anything yet\
04:32:53 <kmc> it's not so much a language as a burlap sack full of spiders
04:33:38 <kmc> a friend of mine paid off his final university bill with a burlap sack full of gold coins
04:33:41 <kmc> with a dollar sign drawn on it
04:34:11 <itidus20> I have a coffee jar full of silver coins.
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04:55:10 <absentswett> So, as you can tell by my nick, I'm going to be going away for one week, on some sort of fun thing.
04:55:19 <absentswett> This information is definitely contained in my nick.
04:55:24 <shubshub> oh i though it said absents wet
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06:36:18 <ion> I haven’t got around to studying it, but i’ve been meaning to.
06:36:34 <ion> A LYAA would be helpful.
06:36:41 <shubshub> Venom Is being Developed Using The Ruby Programming Language'
06:36:56 <shachaf> ion: You should write one!
06:37:06 <shachaf> (Actually it already exists.)
06:37:27 <ion> shubshub: Should we pronounce “being” in a different way compared to all the other words in that sentence?
06:37:42 <ion> VENOM IS… (whispers) being… DEVELOPED USING
06:37:54 <shachaf> No pronounce it the same way as one of the other words.
06:38:00 <shachaf> VENOM IS VENOM DEVELOPED USING
06:38:03 <shachaf> VENOM IS IS DEVELOPED USING?
06:38:47 <shubshub> Venom is being developed using the Ruby Programming Language
06:39:12 <kmc> my brain hurts
06:39:18 <ion> Is the Ruby Programming Language™ the same thing as Ruby?
06:39:18 <shachaf> "Venom is ... the Ruby Programming Language"
06:39:29 <kmc> ion: https://github.com/liamoc/learn-you-an-agda
06:39:46 <kmc> venom is Being developed using the ruby programming language"
06:40:06 <ion> kmc: Thanks. Ah, i already saw that link but http://learnyouanagda.com/ that it links to didn’t work and i forgot about it.
06:40:56 <kmc> venom Is Being Developed Using The ruby programming language
06:41:19 <shubshub> VENOM IS BEING DEVELOPED USING THE RUBY PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE
06:41:29 <kmc> much better
06:41:31 <shachaf> VENOM IS BEING DEVELOPED USING THE RUBY PROGRAMMInG LANGUAGE
06:41:47 <Sgeo_> VeNoM iS bEiNg DeVeLoPeD uSi... /me shuts up
06:42:10 <shachaf> How many feet does a developed have?
06:42:40 <ion> Ｖenom Ｉs being Ｄeveloped Ｕsing Ｔhe Ｒuby Ｐrogramming Ｌanguage
06:44:16 <Sgeo_> What Language is Venom being Developed in?
06:44:24 <kmc> nevermind what Language
06:44:27 * Sgeo_ decides that now is the perfect time to stop being an asshole
06:44:29 <kmc> i want to know What language
06:44:46 <kmc> no actually
06:44:50 <kmc> i want to Know What Language
06:44:53 <kmc> if you Know What I Mean
06:45:22 <kmc> shachaf: is that a version of monqy which is better because it's written in Haskell?
06:45:58 <ion> the Ｖａｒｉａｂｌｅ Ｄｅｆｉｎｅｒ Ｉ Ｊｕｓｔ Ｍａｄｅ can set about 10 Ｔｈｏｕｓａｎｄ Ｖａｒｉａｂｌｅｓ Ｅｖｅｒｙ Ｍｉｎｕｔｅ
06:47:01 <shachaf> Does the c in kmc stand for cynical?
06:47:36 <ion> The c in kmc stands for ｄｏｎｇｓ?
06:47:37 <monqy> dongs doesn't start with c, kmc
06:48:41 <shachaf> kmc: How do you type in fullwidth characters?
06:48:53 <kmc> putStr . map (toEnum . (+ (fromEnum 'Ｅ' - fromEnum 'E')) . fromEnum) $ "INCEPTION"
06:48:53 <ion> perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'y/!-~/！-～/; y/ / /'
06:49:01 <kmc> ion: of course, why didn't I think of that
06:49:25 <kmc> oh, that actually makes sense
06:49:26 <ion> foo c | c == ' ' = ' ' | c >= '!' && c <= '~' = chr (ord c + ord '！' - ord '!') | otherwise = c
06:49:36 <shachaf> Ｍｙ ｍｅｔｈｏｄ ｉｓ ｃｌｅａｒｌｙ ｓｕｐｅｒｉｏｒ．
06:49:43 <shachaf> Ｄｅｓｐｉｔｅ ｂｅｉｎｇ ｒｅａｌｌｙ ｉｎｃｏｎｖｅｎｉｅｎｔ．
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07:12:07 <shubshub> Apparently venom has already been made by someone else
07:13:13 <pikhq_> Unfortunately, my IME doesn't much care for inputting fullwidth Latin text to my terminal.
07:13:34 <pikhq_> Aaand I'm too lazy to use a script.
07:13:35 <shubshub> so im renaming the language To Poison :d
07:16:05 <pikhq_> I'm afraid that Capitalisation in the German Manner has been out of Vogue for Centuries in the English Language.
07:20:15 <Sgeo_> shubshub, just don't rename it to a single letter
07:20:23 <Sgeo_> They're hard to google and most of them are in use
07:20:58 <itidus20> V is a pretty good name but take their advice on this. don't call it V
07:21:02 <Sgeo_> shubshub, because most letters are taken.
07:21:20 <pikhq_> Though not most codepoints.
07:21:26 <Sgeo_> Off the top of my head
07:21:33 <Sgeo_> Wait, A? Or did I make that up
07:22:02 <shachaf> monqy: Am I a good person now;
07:22:11 <Sgeo_> shachaf, I got all the ones that I knew of off the top of my head at that moment..\
07:22:12 <itidus20> i am clueless about languages but I know that the following exist: C, C#, C++, D, F#, J++, R
07:22:17 <pikhq_> Why, U+1F432, 🐱, is perfectly open!
07:22:49 <Sgeo_> shubshub, somewhat
07:23:16 <Sgeo_> shubshub, to be honest, not especially
07:23:23 <shubshub> Im Gonna Officially Call My Language V#+-
07:23:35 <itidus20> I don't know much about it but yeah...
07:23:44 <Sgeo_> People may think it's a Microsoft language
07:23:56 <pikhq_> Actually, it'd probably work best as --C++#
07:24:10 <shubshub> why would they think its a Microsoft language
07:24:16 <shachaf> Much better language than C#
07:24:28 <Sgeo_> shubshub, several Microsoft languages end with #
07:24:45 <Sgeo_> C#, F#. J# I think
07:25:34 <shubshub> no i dont like V something something
07:25:37 <Sgeo_> What other MS languages end with #?
07:25:51 <shubshub> V^^ (what would that be called)
07:26:25 <monqy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_Sharp_(programming_language)
07:26:40 <monqy> it's on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%E2%99%AF page but it doesn't exist?? hlep
07:27:38 <Sgeo_> GHC is worked on by MS people and a lot of internals have names ending with #, does that count?
07:27:42 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_Licious_(Mushroom_Soup_Brand)
07:30:01 <itidus20> it just occured to me shubshub doesn't know yet about the matrix of solidity
07:30:45 <HackEgo> 287) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
07:31:56 <itidus20> its a mysterious quote which noone quite understands
07:32:34 <ion> shubshub: To Poison sounds like a nice name for a language.
07:33:03 <ion> sgeo: GHC#
07:33:12 <itidus20> probably delquote is appropriate here
07:34:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: del: not found
07:34:23 <shubshub> `addquote <shubshub> When In Doubt V** Out
07:34:26 <HackEgo> 851) <shubshub> When In Doubt V** Out
07:34:49 <HackEgo> 850) <shubshub> When In Doubt V** Out
07:34:56 <HackEgo> *poof* <shubshub> When In Doubt V** Out
07:35:09 <HackEgo> 849) <ion> 99 bugs in the bug tracker, 99 reports of bugs. Take one down and commit a fix, 106 bugs in the bug tracker.
07:35:20 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
07:35:54 <shubshub> `addquote <shubshub> `addquote 9001
07:35:58 <HackEgo> 850) <shubshub> `addquote 9001
07:36:06 <HackEgo> 850) <shubshub> `addquote 9001
07:36:39 <monqy> what's perfect about it
07:36:48 <HackEgo> *poof* <shubshub> `addquote 9001
07:36:52 <itidus20> shubshub: the quotes are a very special almost sacred thing :D (though i havent been here long) it is for your own good that they delete them
07:38:26 <coppro> that's what they want you to think
07:39:22 <shubshub> its different cuz it adds a negati ve to u instead of taking away a positive :D
07:39:31 <shubshub> omg there shud be a rating bot
07:39:42 <shubshub> where when u use the + or - then a number
07:40:00 <lambdabot> You can't change your own karma, silly.
07:40:18 <ion> @karma+ monqy
07:40:58 <monqy> @ask elliott i taught shubshub how to use @karma-
07:41:07 <ion> @karma+ monqy
07:41:09 <ion> @karma+ monqy
07:41:15 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
07:42:31 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: karma karma+ karma-
07:42:38 <itidus20> shubshub: would you like to learn brainfuck?
07:42:54 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
07:43:01 <itidus20> i must warn it is called brainfuck for a reason..
07:44:00 <itidus20> anyway.. there is 8 instructions in brainfuck: < > + - . , [ ]
07:44:07 <ion> Hmm. @karma should store who gave each + and - and weight the totals by the givers’ karmas.
07:45:20 <itidus20> i can't really brainfuck at all.. it boggles my mind
07:45:36 <itidus20> even though theoretically i know what each instruction does
07:45:46 <coppro> ion: EMULTIPLESOLUTIONS
07:45:55 <ion> coppro: sure
07:46:57 <itidus20> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.]
07:46:57 <fungot> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ...
07:48:05 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
07:48:55 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
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07:55:06 <itidus20> the ! thing is unusual in brainfuck.. it means that after it to put some input
07:55:26 <itidus20> i forgot what it was for a while
07:58:42 <fungot> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~
07:59:51 <itidus20> to do useful things in brainfuck will give a headache though
08:00:17 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
08:00:17 <EgoBot> 111 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [393]
08:00:47 <shubshub> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
08:01:01 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
08:01:12 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for befunge!
08:01:30 <itidus20> oh.. well befunge makes brainfuck look easy
08:01:45 <shubshub> !bf_txtgen Hello There My Name Is Shubshub and I will be Helping you write in BrainFuck
08:01:48 <EgoBot> 752 +++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>---.>>----.>+++..+++.<<++.<++++++++++++.>>+++.---.>+++.<.<.<-------.>>>+++++++.<<.<+.>>----.>------------.<++++.<.<-----.>>>++++++.<<.<++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++.>>---.>.<++++++.>++.-------------------.<<.>-------.<<-------.>>>++.--------------------------------------------------------------------.<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>.<<<+++++++++.--------------.+++..>>>.<+.+++.>.<<
08:01:53 <Lumpio-> Befunge is much more usable
08:01:59 <shubshub> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>---.>>----.>+++..+++.<<++.<++++++++++++.>>+++.---.>+++.<.<.<-------.>>>+++++++.<<.<+.>>----.>------------.<++++.<.<-----.>>>++++++.<<.<++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++.>>---.>.<++++++.>++.-------------------.<<.>-------.<<-------.>>>++.--------------------------------------------------------------------.<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>.<<<+++++++++.--------
08:01:59 <fungot> Hello There My Name Is Shubshub and I w
08:02:12 <Lumpio-> Why do you capitalize randomly
08:02:15 <shubshub> well atleast it makes alot of brainfucking sence
08:03:06 <itidus20> shubshub: the most easy to understand instruction is the . since that is the output
08:03:28 <shubshub> itidus20 can you teach me Befunge and who invented it and why and what it does and what it was amde in
08:03:30 <augur_> anyone have suggestions for a good abstract strategy game?
08:03:42 <itidus20> no im an idiot at these things
08:04:12 <shubshub> Its Basically a Befunge Interpreter written In Befunge :D
08:05:21 <shubshub> the I has to be capitilzied its proper grammer
08:06:07 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
08:06:21 <pikhq_> shubshub: You lose that argument when you otherwise avoid typical usage.
08:06:27 <ion> “the I has to be capitilzied its proper grammer” was actually quite funny.
08:06:40 <Lumpio-> shubshub: I wasn't referring to that
08:06:51 <shubshub> `addquote <shubshub> the I has to be capitilized its proper grammer
08:06:55 <HackEgo> 850) <shubshub> the I has to be capitilized its proper grammer
08:06:58 <pikhq_> Meh, I'm a bit of a pedant, though.
08:07:02 <ion> `delquote 850
08:07:06 <HackEgo> *poof* <shubshub> the I has to be capitilized its proper grammer
08:07:09 <ion> Not *that* funny. :-P
08:07:32 <Lumpio-> The funny part was that that sentence was grammatically broken.
08:07:53 <itidus20> shubshub: when you put ^bf you start at 0 .. so when you put a + its like "+1" .. and putting - is like "-1"
08:08:01 <pikhq_> `addquote <Lumpio-> STOP CAPITALIZING <Lumpio-> It's making me feel weird <shubshub> the I has to be capitilized its proper grammer
08:08:04 <HackEgo> 850) <Lumpio-> STOP CAPITALIZING <Lumpio-> It's making me feel weird <shubshub> the I has to be capitilized its proper grammer
08:08:13 <HackEgo> *poof* <Lumpio-> STOP CAPITALIZING <Lumpio-> It's making me feel weird <shubshub> the I has to be capitilized its proper grammer
08:08:22 <shubshub> no pikhq it wasnt that funny at all
08:08:50 <ion> lumpio: He knows, he did that intentionally.
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08:09:27 <ion> He’s doing *all* of what he’s doing intentionally.
08:09:48 <shubshub> Im making a proper programming language now :D
08:09:57 <ion> He gets kicks from us getting all riled up from his tactics. :-)
08:10:02 <pikhq_> It would take astounding stupid to avoid typical usage that well.
08:10:11 <monqy> Phantom_Hoover: he's been here ever since he started being here
08:10:19 <pikhq_> Then again, there exists such stupid.
08:10:27 <Lumpio-> This guy might be for real
08:10:38 <pikhq_> Lumpio-: No, zzo38 merely speaks zzo38ese, not English.
08:10:48 <itidus20> shubshub: so with the brainfuck program of "-1" then "output" what happens is 0 -1 = 255! so it outputs character 255! :D
08:10:49 <pikhq_> By sheer coincidence the two languages share some mutual comprehensibility.
08:10:54 <ion> But i must admit shubshub is more entertaining than most trolls.
08:10:58 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?
08:11:07 <EgoBot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?
08:11:13 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
08:11:18 <itidus20> my wording makes no sense don't mind me
08:11:24 <Phantom_Hoover> ion, dammit, that takes all the fun out of yelling at dumb languages
08:11:49 <itidus20> ^bf -------------------------------------------------------.
08:12:01 <itidus20> ^bf -------------------------------------------------------.++.++.+++.++.+..+.....
08:12:11 <shubshub> !bf_txtgen Join the #PoisonLang Channel
08:12:14 <EgoBot> 241 +++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>-.>>++++++.>.<-.<++.>++++++.>-.---.<<.+++.<++++++.>>-----.>++++.<++++.----.-.<<----.>>-------------.>+++++.-------.<<---.<---------.>>+++++++.>------.<++++++..>++++.<--.<----------------------. [531]
08:12:22 <shubshub> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>-.>>++++++.>.<-.<++.>++++++.>-.---.<<.+++.<++++++.>>-----.>++++.<++++.----.-.<<----.>>-------------.>+++++.-------.<<---.<---------.>>+++++++.>------.<++++++..>++++.<--.<----------------------.
08:12:22 <fungot> Join the #PoisonLang Channel.
08:13:20 <itidus20> ^bf ---.+.-.+.-.+...-...+...-...+.....
08:13:37 * pikhq_ declares sleep beneficial, and does so.
08:13:47 <itidus20> so whats happening there is every time theres a . it outputs a character
08:14:15 <fizzie> pikhq_: So you declare sleep beneficial, and declare sleep beneficial.
08:14:27 <itidus20> but i must admit the good stuff is too complicated for me
08:14:58 <itidus20> i can't stand trying to compare 2 numbers in bf
08:15:00 <fizzie> There are some "useful" bits in.
08:15:20 <fungot> >>,[[-<+2>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<2[>+6[<+8>-]<-.[-]<]+32.[-]>>,]
08:15:23 <fungot> ,[>[->+10<]>[-<+>]<2-48[>+<-],]>.
08:15:59 <ion> I found the method of randomly capitalizing words to chafe our OCDs very innovative.
08:16:01 <fizzie> I'll be gone in fifteen minutes or so.
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08:17:52 <shubshub> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>-.>>++++++.>.<-.<++.>++++++.>-.---.<<.+++.<++++++.>>-----.>++++.<++++.----.-.<<----.>>-------------.>+++++.-------.<<---.<---------.>>+++++++.>------.<++++++..>++++.<--.<----------------------.
08:17:52 <fungot> Join the #PoisonLang Channel.
08:18:13 <itidus20> ok fair enough there is no chr 256 it wins
08:19:15 <ion> > (text . pure . chr) 256
08:19:17 <lambdabot> mueval-core: <stdout>: hPutChar: invalid argument (Invalid or incomplete mu...
08:19:46 <ion> λ> (putStrLn . pure . Data.Char.chr) 256
08:21:11 <shubshub> TABS9597 you should make a programming language
08:22:02 <TABS9597> Im no good with programing languages
08:24:30 <fizzie> But you can't put a 0 over IRC.
08:24:48 <itidus20> i didn't think that deeply about it
08:30:30 <fizzie> It doesn't really check for errors.
08:31:17 <fizzie> : is the digit 10 and so on.
08:32:16 -!- shubshub has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ <--- EsoTeric Languages :D :P.
08:32:40 <fizzie> And / is the -1th digit.
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08:40:47 <shubshub> fizzie: Can fungot accept Python programming for an interpreter?
08:40:47 <fungot> shubshub: wtf! lol i dribbled just got mind raped i was going to be a real dumb one too, or in this
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08:53:55 <elliott> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
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08:53:55 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
08:53:56 <elliott> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
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09:00:33 <madbr> shubshub: you should try making a functional language
09:00:59 <madbr> functional not as in "it works"
09:01:41 <madbr> as in "you process functions... take in functions, process them, make new functions"
09:03:12 <monqy> shubshub: remember what I told you about Monads?
09:03:35 <madbr> tbh I don't understand monads yet
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09:05:16 <monqy> shubshub: you should take a look at a monad tutorial
09:06:05 <monqy> monad tutorials are fun!
09:06:10 <monqy> they tutorial you about monads
09:06:32 <itidus20> i think shub can do it but he will be a tough nut to crack
09:06:44 <monqy> shubshub: see, even itidus20 believes in you!
09:06:51 <itidus20> i know monads are beyond me though
09:07:20 <madbr> shachaf: what language do you normally program in
09:08:39 <shachaf> monqy: firstte steppe, a monad is just a monadoid in the endomonocategory of monads
09:09:01 <monqy> shubshub: listen to shachaf
09:09:05 <monqy> shubshub: he knows monads
09:09:32 <shachaf> shubshub: listem to me,i no monads good
09:09:56 <shachaf> if you break the monad laws you go to monad jail
09:10:06 <itidus20> shubshub: they could make you rich to be honest
09:10:23 <shachaf> itidus20: monadse can make you rich beyond your wildest dreames
09:10:30 <shachaf> itidus20: monadse can make you poor beyond your wildest dreames
09:10:56 <shachaf> itidus20: monadse can make you foamous beyond your wildest dreames
09:11:23 <Phantom_Hoover> ok some of the teaspoons in my house have "hospital property" engraved on them.
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09:12:22 <shachaf> elliott: Don't listen to monqy. monqy doesn't even know monads.
09:12:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the nhs is subsidising my teaspoons, spread the word
09:13:09 <itidus20> Phantom_Hoover: the plastic cup i drink from everyday is one i had in my pocket by accident after a viist to someones house
09:13:27 <itidus20> i can't even remember why it was in my pocket.. it wasn't a stealing attempt
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09:15:20 <itidus20> and cheap plastic thermuses are a joke
09:15:44 <shubshub> I Updated my !!!Batch Page with the source code of !!!Batch!Py!Batch Source Code :D (The Failed Yet Would Work Only If... !!!Batch Interpreter Written In !!!Batch)
09:18:36 <elliott> shachaf: do you have ipv6?
09:18:45 <shachaf> elliott: On my serverthing.
09:18:54 <elliott> everyone has ipv6 on their serverthing
09:19:10 <shachaf> Internet Protocolversion 6.
09:19:20 <monqy> ipv6 is out now? :o
09:19:28 <monqy> where i'm from all they've got is ipv5
09:19:30 <elliott> Protocolversion is french for protocol version
09:19:54 <shachaf> TWIST: IT'S ACTUALLY CHINESE.
09:20:17 <monqy> please say yes I love double twists oh :(
09:23:51 <shachaf> monqy: What's southern California like?
09:24:00 <shachaf> I almost went there this year.
09:24:37 <itidus20> it's shaped like a gerrymander
09:25:58 <shachaf> kmc: "You want rockstars you better be a rockstar yourself. Brogrammer startup job fairs are not going to cut it."
09:26:24 <itidus20> i just happened to be on the relevant wiki page
09:26:25 <itidus20> "The odd shapes of California Senate districts in Southern California (2008) have led to claims of gerrymandering."
09:27:24 <qfr> Brogrammers and hogrammersw
09:28:12 <Lumpio-> All they can do is copy and paste together some jquery mvc framework and python on rails or whatever and then boast about it to their friends at the coffee shop
09:28:28 <Lumpio-> Also they make "mashups" not software
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09:28:58 <itidus20> who do they think they are meeting up with friends at coffee shops, the people from the tv show 'friends'?
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09:34:29 <shachaf> This channel is such a waste of time.
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09:35:10 <shubshub> Quick Give me a language to create a new esoteric in
09:36:06 <monqy> oh no, shachaf :'(
09:36:37 <shubshub> nortti: No just no too difficult
09:37:35 <shubshub> Give Me Another Language to make a new esoteric in quick!
09:38:14 <Sgeo_> itidus20, am I not allowed to have a nasty streak on occasion?
09:38:35 <itidus20> do we have an interpreter for it in here though?
09:38:42 <shubshub> Sgeo_ you cant make a new esoteric in HQ9+
09:39:04 <itidus20> not that that is a requirement
09:39:34 <Sgeo_> shubshub, there's a great language called English.
09:39:45 <Sgeo_> It's a very good language to make an esoteric language with
09:40:06 * shubshub wonders If every living language is written in english?
09:40:27 <itidus20> http://esolangs.org/wiki/English
09:41:21 <Sgeo_> shubshub, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gravity there is no program capable of interpreting or compiling programs written in Gravity
09:41:43 <Sgeo_> shubshub, I think the snarky thing to say about Perl is that the only spec for Perl is the implementation of Perl
09:42:22 * shubshub would have to now make a Gravity Interpreter Lol
09:43:49 <Sgeo_> shubshub, it's not possible. Well, hmm, I wonder if you could make a program to do it... but running the program would require infinite hardware
09:44:02 <Sgeo_> Or some other sort of infinity computer
09:44:27 <Sgeo_> Wait, turing-machines are infinite memory
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09:45:57 <shubshub> what esoteric language is the most easiest to learn and can do alot of stuff?
09:46:20 <itidus20> im awful at explaining it but bf is really actually quite powerful
09:46:45 <Sgeo_> itidus20, in terms of what it can compute, at least
09:47:40 <nortti> shubshub: at least if you have ever used forth
09:47:44 <itidus20> ^bf ,[.,]!this program prints everything after the exclamation mark... so its sort of like echo
09:47:44 <fungot> this program prints everything after the exclamation mark... so its sort of like echo
09:48:02 <fungot> this program prints everything after the exclamation mark... so its sort of like echo
09:48:38 <Sgeo_> shubshub, Brainfuck is capable of any computation a computer can make.
09:48:44 <itidus20> i dunno how it keeps that stuff in memory
09:49:09 <EgoBot> 56 +++++++++[>+++++>++++++++++>+><<<<-]>-.>+.<++.--.>++.>+. [191]
09:49:17 <shubshub> ^bf +++++++++[>+++++>++++++++++>+><<<<-]>-.>+.<++.--.>++.>+.
09:49:24 <shubshub> ^bf +++++++++[>+++++>++++++++++>+><<<<-]>-.>+.<++.--.>++.>+.+++++++++[>+++++>++++++++++>+><<<<-]>-.>+.<++.--.>++.>+.+++++++++[>+++++>++++++++++>+><<<<-]>-.>+.<++.--.>++.>+.+++++++++[>+++++>++++++++++>+><<<<-]>-.>+.<++.--.>++.>+.
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09:49:50 <itidus20> shubshub: ok ill explain it now or try to
09:50:33 <shubshub> ititdus20 r u any good at programming in brainfuck???
09:50:38 <itidus20> the comma means read in a character from the input.. the [ and ] sort of form a loop .. and the dot outputs a character
09:51:05 <itidus20> so the simplest program to use input and output would be like this
09:51:35 <shubshub> Whats The Most Diffcult Language To Learn Thats An EsoTeric
09:52:11 <itidus20> hmm.... i may have got smoething wrong there
09:52:14 <shubshub> nortti: I DONT WANT TO USE MALBOLGE
09:52:30 <Sgeo_> shubshub, does BancSTAR count as esoteric?
09:52:59 <itidus20> after the ! is the input into the program..
09:53:17 <itidus20> so ,. just reads a single character and outputs it
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09:54:16 <Sgeo_> shubshub, this is not an esolang, but here you go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BANCStar_programming_language
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09:54:54 <Sgeo_> shubshub, it may as well be an esolang, it's more incomprehensible than many esolangs
09:54:55 <shubshub> @ask elliott Do You Know any Epic EsoLangs I should Program with?
09:54:59 <itidus20> i suspect from his id he was one of the other type of esoteric
09:55:55 <Sgeo_> There's something absurd about that exchange
09:56:03 <Sgeo_> You can tell yourself... why can't I tell myself
09:57:15 <shubshub> why is Java listed as a Joke Language?
09:57:37 <Sgeo_> Because a lot of people dislike it
09:57:59 <Sgeo_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Java
09:59:08 <nortti> Is asm not meant for human use? Have I misuded it for 3 years?
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10:07:46 <itidus20> "All popular modern languages are defined via a definitional interpreter with accompanying O’Reilly “animal” book. The work on Wikiplia is unrelated: We have no animal mascot"
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10:24:19 <shubshub> I Just added capital lettering to !Py!Batch
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10:25:59 <elliott> batch derivatives and fi ligatures
10:26:27 <oklopol> and when you say derivatives, i assume someone made a batch manifold?
10:29:03 <oklopol> a manifold is a topological space where all points have a neighborhood homeomorphic to euclidean space, and these homeomorphisms are compatible so that essentially you have a "locally euclidean" space with the global structure possily being very different.
10:29:38 <shubshub> well I didnt do that with my Batch Derivative
10:29:40 <oklopol> for instance a cirle looks like the reals locally, but globally it's a bit different.
10:29:52 <shubshub> http://esolangs.org/wiki/!!!Batch
10:29:57 <oklopol> also stricly speaking you cannot make a countable manifold
10:31:12 <oklopol> because euclidean space, that is, R^n for R the reals and n a natural number is uncountable, so you need to have at least the cardinality of reals
10:31:41 <oklopol> but i figured maybe you gave a better definition that doesn't have this horrible flaw.
10:32:04 <shubshub> do you like my programming language?
10:32:49 <elliott> Lumpio-: i know a great solution to capital problems
10:33:12 <oklopol> Was Created By Shubshub To Make Programming In Batch More Challenging and to Make it seem Better as it is Theoreticly Unreadable
10:33:12 <oklopol> Unless you use the Translator
10:33:31 <oklopol> sounds even more awesome than what i suggested
10:33:47 <elliott> theory don't always match up with practice y'know
10:34:23 <Lumpio-> elliott: What's your solution
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10:34:35 <elliott> Lumpio-: well it starts with /ig
10:34:39 <elliott> and ends with nore shubshub
10:34:44 <oklopol> when you say theoretically unreadable, i assume you mean parsing is high in the arithmetical hierarchy
10:34:52 <Lumpio-> ...I actually read that as regexp flags first
10:35:02 <Lumpio-> And was like "wait don't those go in the end"
10:35:20 <oklopol> what "seem" means is outside my understanding of game theory really
10:36:42 <oklopol> Without An Infinite Line Translator Code The Program Can Only Interpret Things On The set str= and Does not Handle set commands very well then executing another command after as It will most likely skip over that next command completely
10:37:52 <oklopol> http://esolangs.org/wiki/!!!Batch look how unreadable the code is?!?! that's basically UNREADABLE :D
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10:39:11 <elliott> sorry im not a good typier
10:41:18 <oklopol> hey duddes how about this language i've been designing the last 4 months where you take brainfuck except well call it brainfuckER and you reverse all the characters, and you have to draw the program in paint? and then there's brainfuckiest where you just say beep boop in a microphone and it's interpreted as a fibonacci code word and then it's multiplied by 7 and then it's interpreted as a brainfuck program except that if you print the same thing twice
10:43:33 <elliott> can you put those on the wiki
10:45:22 <oklopol> doesn't sound like something i'd do, but you can if you wish. how many bf derivatives are there out there?
10:54:48 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p9485438415.txt do you like my new language
10:55:17 <elliott> can you put it on the wiki
10:55:43 <oklopol> can't you do these complicated things for me :D
10:55:56 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Most_ever_Brainfuckiest_Fuck_you_Brain_fucker_Fuck&action=edit&redlink=1
10:56:01 <elliott> there that's like 90% of the effort done
10:56:21 <elliott> oklopol: did u see my brainfuck derivative
10:56:26 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Not_a_brainfuck_derivative
10:56:39 <elliott> its not as good as most ever brainfuckiest fuck you brain fucker fuck :(
10:57:21 <oklopol> almost left my nick out, but it's there now.
10:57:42 <elliott> oklopol: it's in the revision history anyway
10:58:03 <oklopol> but it needs to be explicit so people know the great work i do.
10:58:13 <elliott> fighting the temptation to put {{featured language}} on that
10:58:42 <oklopol> note that i have no idea if that's brainfuck complete :D
10:58:53 <elliott> go fucking yourself is definitely braincufk copmpetle
10:59:07 <oklopol> it's an important open question
10:59:40 <oklopol> holy fuck you're intelligent
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11:15:07 <oklopol> i think i have to get my colleague in on my next brainfuck project
11:18:33 <oklopol> it will be turing complete iff riemann's hypothesis is true XOR p != np.
11:18:51 <elliott> there's already a language whose tcness is predicated on goldbach's conjceture fwiw
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11:19:05 <elliott> (cpressey's Oozlybub and Murphy)
11:20:02 <oklopol> i didn't know that. in any case, that's not the only point.
11:22:14 <oklopol> that actually looks kind of interesting (at least its introduction)
11:23:11 <elliott> it's a cpressey lang of course it's interesting
11:23:31 <elliott> he and ais523 and oerjan are the only people who should be allowed to make esolangs
11:23:42 <oklopol> perhaps i will just make it trivially tc, but base the solution on obscure theorems no one knows.
11:24:02 <oklopol> hey, clue is pretty awesome.
11:24:35 <elliott> SEE WHAT I DID THERE???!?!?!?!?!?!???!?!?!?!?!?!??!??!?!?!?!??!??!?!?!??!?!?!??!!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!
11:25:40 <oklopol> i'm watching numb3rs for inspiration
11:26:40 <HackEgo> 766) <oklopol> speaking of math, i watched an episode of numb3rs today <oklopol> the first episode was more like 57471571c5
11:26:58 <HackEgo> 849) <ion> 99 bugs in the bug tracker, 99 reports of bugs. Take one down and commit a fix, 106 bugs in the bug tracker.
11:27:18 <HackEgo> 850) <Lumpio-> STOP CAPITALIZING <Lumpio-> It's making me feel weird <shubshub> the I has to be capitilized its proper grammer
11:27:26 <oklopol> hehe, that's an awesome quote
11:27:51 <elliott> i don't believe him though
11:28:04 <ion> I was just paraphrasing someone on Slashdot (who probably was paraphrasing someone else).
11:28:05 <oklopol> everytime i see one of my old quotes i'm like lol that guy is hilllarrious
11:28:55 <elliott> that one isn't exactly old :P
11:29:09 <oklopol> feels like forever, i've continued watching.
11:29:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10757
11:29:56 <oklopol> "37) <oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister" i agree with you on this one ofc
11:30:19 <elliott> i think i ended up deleting none of those
11:30:57 <oklopol> "153) <oklopol> pigeons are very smart. all the known ways to show a language is not regular are based on pigeons."
11:31:50 <elliott> oklopol: whats youre opinion on how the quotes should be identified
11:31:57 <elliott> there is widespread dissent against the "changing numbers" system
11:32:30 <elliott> the most promising options seem to be (a) unchanging numbers like they used to be (but this is kinda ugly) (b) a prefix of some cryptographic hash of the quote contents (c) just identify it by the quote itself (so you delete it by pasting the quote in) (d) timestamp
11:33:32 <oklopol> "312) [After a long monologue] <oklopol> i think i have to escape this heated discussion before it becomes a flamewar" classic oklopol
11:33:38 <elliott> oklopol: remember famous bisexuals
11:34:24 <elliott> 537) <oklopol> i started running and smoking <oklopol> i love my lungs the way they are so trying to balance them out
11:35:00 <oklopol> do i really need to have an opinion on that? well i certainly think you should be able to refer to a quote.
11:35:36 <elliott> yes it's mandatory for you to have an opinion on that
11:36:21 <elliott> 841) <elliott> gah <elliott> this language is of the devil <elliott> oklopol: you're meant to use your powers for _good_t
11:36:32 <elliott> i've forgotten that language already, thank god
11:37:18 <oklopol> 443) <oklopol> well you know because i could've used my "wtf, you have multiple identity elements smiley" o=oO=O <oklopol> yeah, i have a smiley for everything.
11:37:34 <elliott> i like how the quote is misplaced
11:38:09 <oklopol> "451) <oklopol> you know that thing in the movies where they put a pillow on someone's face and try to suffocate them <oklopol> that doesn't work. <oklopol> we tried that with my ex once, but we just couldn't kill each other that way" :SADSADD
11:40:04 <Gregor> Here's a fun conundrum:
11:40:40 <Gregor> My unionfs thing is based on the environment with which a process looking at the union was called. Which is all fine and good, I just need to get that info out of /proc/foo/environ
11:40:57 <Gregor> HOWEVER, if that process is in the middle of an execve, guess what /proc/foo/environ does!
11:41:17 <Gregor> If you guessed "it's empty", YOU'RE WRONG! It blocks until execve is finished!
11:41:43 <Gregor> And what if, ohhh, execve was waiting on some FS functions, which are themselves waiting on /proc/foo/environ?
11:42:28 <elliott> Gregor: are you implementing all the features i asked for
11:42:46 <elliott> Gregor: do you have to go through /proc surely the kernel has interfaces for this
11:43:02 <Gregor> Yes, the kernel does have interfaces for this. They're called /proc.
11:43:28 <Gregor> Yes, they go like this:
11:43:35 <Gregor> open("/proc/whatever/environ", O_RDONLY)
11:43:41 <elliott> anyway check whether the process is currently execveing? can you do tha
11:44:14 <Gregor> Maybe? But even if I do, then what? I still need the environment.
11:45:06 <elliott> Gregor: And always read environ right after execve (so that if the first thing a process does is execve, you still know what its environ was).
11:45:15 <Gregor> Cache it from where? I need the environment that was /passed/ to execve.
11:45:25 <Gregor> Which may not be the environment of the caller.
11:45:27 <elliott> Cache it from previous requests.
11:45:38 <oklopol> look at you two being famous bisexuals together
11:45:46 <elliott> I'd expect it to use the original environ to resolve the request for the executable.
11:45:56 <elliott> But you could override execve somehow.
11:46:03 <Gregor> So then it's just a trick of figuring out if I'm in execve.
11:46:14 <elliott> Gregor: Consider running /secret/highlyprivate/motherfuck/executables/viruspoop.exe in a restricted environment.
11:46:30 <elliott> With your design, there'd be no way to run an executable in a heavily restricted environment.
11:46:38 <elliott> (Without specifically moving it somewhere to give it access to itself.)
11:46:53 <elliott> Also, it'd mean that you could pass exec a path that doesn't exist (from your perspective) and have things work, which is just weird.
11:47:14 <elliott> Gregor: HOWEVER make sure /proc/self/exe doesn't break if you use the parent's environment.
11:47:19 <elliott> You might have to re-link it somehow.
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11:47:45 <elliott> (Obviously it's fine for it to stay broken if you specifically run it in a union without access to itself, though.)
11:48:52 <oklopol> did you see my new brainfuck derivative? it's almost as good as the original.
11:49:44 <oklopol> really the connection is quite subtle
11:49:59 <Gregor> elliott: The call related to execing can be the very first call the unionfs sees :'(
11:50:04 <oklopol> the language was inspired by the seminal work of shubshub
11:50:19 <elliott> Ngevd: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Most_ever_Brainfuckiest_Fuck_you_Brain_fucker_Fuck
11:50:32 <elliott> Gregor: 12:45 <elliott> Gregor: And always read environ right after execve (so that if the first thing a process does is execve, you still know what its environ was).
11:50:49 <Gregor> elliott: Dude, I'm a filesystem.
11:50:58 <elliott> Gregor: So? You're in kernelspace.
11:51:02 <elliott> Can't you register that kind of shit?
11:51:17 <Gregor> No, I'm still FUSE. And even if I was in kernelspace, is it really appropriate to instrument every program >_<
11:51:29 <oklopol> Ngevd: elliott proved it's in fact _not_ brainfuck complete
11:51:48 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, FUSE? Well, fuck that.
11:51:52 <elliott> Gregor: Get into kernelspace, man.
11:51:56 <elliott> You can do things like instrument every program.
11:51:57 <Gregor> Although maybe this is the most compelling argument yet that I need to stop being FUSE X-D
11:52:17 <elliott> Gregor: If you specifically overrode execve, you could avoid the overhead of open/read after every execve.
11:52:27 <elliott> Since it gets pretty convenient access to the environment execve is passed :P
11:52:32 <oklopol> interestingly, the proof does not use standard recursion theoretic methods, but instead notes that fucking yourself is a bounded time process because nerds come really fast.
11:52:35 <elliott> Gregor: ALTERNATIVELY, you could use something that isn't the environment.
11:53:20 <elliott> Gregor: Hell if I know. How about getting into kernelspace (see a pattern here?) and adding your own execve-like syscall (or flag to an existing syscall) that contains the path to use?
11:53:42 <elliott> So that you only have overhead when the capabilities are being explicitly invoked, and always have direct access to the path.
11:54:24 <Gregor> execve is, roughly, the least interesting problem here >_>
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12:25:40 <absentswett> And you never can be, because asdfness doesn't exist.
12:32:26 <absentswett> Never mind. Saying "creibrodos" makes you asdf.
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12:39:29 <elliott> absentswett: i lost my asdf
12:41:35 <ion> Cheibriados?
12:41:57 * ion checks whether he remembered it correctly… apparently yes.
12:42:14 <ion> Known as Chei by friends.
12:44:50 <elliott> monqy laughs at chei so i laugh at chei too
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12:48:47 <ion> monqy plotted an assassination of the president so i plotted an assassination of the president too.
12:59:13 <elliott> ion: THEY INVENTED BERATEAHBLE AIR
13:03:12 <elliott> You answered this question within like 3 mins of asking which may as well be the time taken to type it. I saw it and was like "hey a Haskell question that I can answer and to which no one has answered yet, bring the rep train", and I go typing the answer when a new answer appears from an 20k rep guy telling just what I was about to say. You, experts, should really leave some questions alone for guys like us... :) – CodingTales 58 mi
13:05:50 <ion> Who implemented ＢＥＲＡＴＥＡＨＢＬＥ air?
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14:17:08 <elliott> "@CodingTales: The '20k brigade' tends to give rather succinct answers"
14:17:31 <elliott> "Also, you can set up email notifications for the haskell tag, and I'm sure having well-written explanations of the difference between IO a and a, the layout rule, and the monomorphism restriction at hand in a text file will help you beat them to the punch one day :-)"
14:17:44 <elliott> i've only been doing this for 4 months
14:18:26 <olsner> elliott: welcome to brigade
14:20:11 <elliott> im wondering whether to reply to
14:20:17 <elliott> those two comments or whether to just stay silent
14:20:57 <ion> Feeding conspiracies is always good.
14:21:23 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9050725/call-cc-implementation/9050907#9050907 <-- the 20k brigade tends to give rather succinct answers
14:21:27 <elliott> good thing i wrote that before i had 20k
14:29:22 <elliott> http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=4943 what a bug report
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14:42:31 <olsner> "Our problem is that those reports are being used by investment houses to make decisions sometimes worth billions, and we just cannot have those decisions made against wrong numbers."
14:47:50 <Deewiant> I've heard anecdotes about how you can't use fixed point even if you wanted to, because everybody expects the floating point level of accuracy...
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15:01:42 <elliott> fizzie: It's made of fire.
15:05:53 <elliott> [[It is currently permitted to define non-strictly-positive datatypes, such as
15:05:53 <elliott> data Bad = bad {Bad -> Bad} but don’t bet on that staying alive!]]
15:05:59 <elliott> Who would have guessed the owner of strictlypositive.org doesn't like those?
15:07:20 <Gregor> "Last edited by GregorR, in a few seconds"
15:07:54 <elliott> Gregor: That's what you get when using FeatherWiki.
15:08:11 <Gregor> It's also what you get when using GitHub's wiki, apparently.
15:08:27 <elliott> Gregor: What do you think that's coded in?
15:11:02 <elliott> Gregor: Do you have an opinion on the quote identifier issue?
15:12:33 <Gregor> " is the best identifier.
15:14:16 <elliott> "There is currently one built-in signature, declared as if
15:14:16 <elliott> sig Console = ouch Char | inch [] Char"
15:14:25 <elliott> We really must do something about McBride's naming.
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15:39:04 <Taneb> Everything needs to be more like Taneb
15:39:23 <Taneb> And that person on TVTropes called Tanebi
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16:56:34 <elliott> "I'm not too surprised the two languages are basically neck-and-neck here (a 10% difference is not noteworthy). Using C as a performance benchmark, Haskell loses some performance for its lazy functional nature, while Python loses some performance due to being an interpreted language. A decent match."
16:56:50 <elliott> lmao @ python users thinking that haskell has anything close to cpython's overhead
16:57:30 <elliott> Gregor: Do you know what happened when user put sleep(1) in the middle of their tight loop?
16:57:40 <elliott> Gregor: There was no statistically significant change in execution time.
17:00:21 <elliott> "Python is really optimized for this sort of thing. I suspect that Haskell isn't." YEAH PYTHON IS REALLY OPTIMISED FOR READING A FILE OF NUMERIC DATA AND QUICKSORTING IT
17:00:33 <elliott> HASKELL IS OPTIMISED SOLELY FOR OPERATING WITH
17:00:39 <elliott> That's why it's a functional language.
17:01:03 <elliott> (More like pure "boring"ctional, right?)
17:01:08 <elliott> This is so boring without shachaf.
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17:08:54 <elliott> MY THEFT IS NON-OPTIONAL!!!
17:17:52 <olsner> elliott: where did you find that python vs haskell thingy?
17:18:14 <elliott> Stupid answers to http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10357663/python-faster-than-compiled-haskell.
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17:56:58 <ion> “Python is really optimized for this sort of thing. I suspect that Haskell isn't.”
18:01:14 <ais523> ion: what sort of thing?
18:11:20 <ion> Ah, sorry, i only looked at the lines from the last ~hour.
18:13:42 <Gregor> "just" is certainly within the last hour ...
18:16:11 <elliott> Gregor: Don't you wish your compiler gave errors like these?
18:16:13 <elliott> Line ([PN "test"],RA [RN "throw",RN "inch",RBang]) (Raw () (RA [RN "throw",RN "inch",RBang]) (UnifyVFail {[Console, Throws Char, ] Char} Char))
18:16:25 <elliott> Line ([PN "main"],RQ (RA [RN "catch",RTh [([PN "a"],RA [RN "outch",RCh '!',RN ">>",RN "a"])]]) (RA [RN "throw",RCh 'a',RN ">>",RCh 'x'])) (Raw Char (RQ (RA [RN "catch",RTh [([PN "a"],RA [RN "outch",RCh '!',RN ">>",RN "a"])]]) (RA [RN "throw",RCh 'a',RN ">>",RCh 'x'])) (Raw {?0 -> [] ?1} (RTh [([PN "a"],RA [RN "outch",RCh '!',RN ">>",RN "a"])]) (Raw ?1 (RA [RN "outch",RCh '!',RN ">>",RN "a"]) (Cockup "oops"))))
18:19:16 <Gregor> Wow, '(Cockup "oops")'
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18:26:47 <elliott> @tell oerjan Hey, remind me to update that answer again.
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19:06:16 <elliott> I found that a while ago too.
19:06:24 <elliott> It's... not Haskell, though.
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19:06:53 <elliott> Well, it's just plain not. :p
19:07:03 <elliott> It's a restricted language that vaguely resembles Haskell.
19:07:11 <elliott> (Okay, it might be an actual subset.)
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20:25:18 <HackEgo> Ulfalizer: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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21:00:24 <zzo38> What is called if you have a functor which is bijective on objects but not necessarily bijective on morphisms?
21:01:26 <Ngevd> Yeah, definately fred
21:02:42 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:03:08 <monqy> elliott: sebi is an infamous startscummer
21:03:29 <monqy> iirc sebi likes startscumming
21:03:29 <elliott> has anyone messaged them "hi"
21:03:40 <elliott> they need to be "hi"d all the same
21:03:45 <monqy> if i see sebi i'll hi them
21:03:51 <monqy> oh sebi's on right now
21:04:23 <elliott> Legendary start scummer who has dethroned Meow in terms of quitting|leaving. Personally responsible for over half of all games ended by leaving the dungeon.
21:04:23 <elliott> Responsible for 7.33% of all online Crawl games.
21:04:24 <elliott> Responsible for 48.56% of all wanderers played online.
21:04:43 <elliott> oh wow they use bigterm too
21:04:48 <elliott> sebi "satan for our times"
21:04:52 <monqy> hugeterm, as they call it
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21:05:09 <monqy> hugeterm has huge in it, rather than big
21:05:20 <elliott> at first i thought that everyone playing crawl must use a big terminal
21:05:25 <Sgeo_> Startscumming occurs in Crawl?
21:05:46 <Sgeo_> How big is the variation in starting equipment?
21:05:46 <monqy> Sgeo_: stats used to be startscummable, wanderers and entry vaults are still startscummable
21:05:51 <elliott> monqy: you can't "hi" this guy properly because he isn't startscumming right now :(
21:06:09 <elliott> (how are stats not startscummable now? not random?)
21:06:37 <monqy> Sgeo_: even the most respectable crawl players will quit on some of the really stupid entry vaults, like there's one that makes you hack through a bunch of plants at the start
21:07:12 <elliott> but berking plants in general
21:07:23 <monqy> Sgeo_: vault is a technical term in crawl
21:07:27 <elliott> monqy: Sgeo_ doesn't play crawl he just
21:07:37 <Sgeo_> elliott, I play Crawl... just not very much
21:07:46 <elliott> i havent seen any evidence yet!!!!
21:07:50 <monqy> and you're bad at it
21:08:02 <Sgeo_> monqy, not denying that
21:08:18 <monqy> sgeo you haven't played online in a year
21:08:20 <elliott> monqy: calling sgeo bad is an insult to my badness
21:08:27 <Sgeo_> monqy, which server?
21:08:29 <elliott> do i get to say that now that i've survived lots of turns
21:08:37 <monqy> your high score was a year ago
21:08:41 <monqy> I forgot i did !hs not !lg
21:08:47 <monqy> elliott: your hs is better than sgeo's hs
21:09:01 <elliott> 22:08 <elliott> !hs elliott
21:09:01 <elliott> 22:08 <Quelles> 92. elliott the Impaler (L15 DsAK), worshipper of Lugonu, blasted by Aizul (poison arrow) on D:17 on 2012-04-26, with 84580 points after 43254 turns and 3:34:58.
21:09:03 <elliott> 22:08 <Quelles> 32. Sgeo the Cutter (L8 SpAs), worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, shot by a centaur (runed arrow) on D:6 on 2011-03-26, with 1131 points after 8739 turns and 1:24:53.
21:09:08 <elliott> wow sgeo please tell me you haven't taken any advice ever
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21:09:26 <monqy> I think my first encounter with sgeo was helping him with a mfie
21:09:33 <monqy> this was before I joined #esoteric
21:09:39 <elliott> whats mfie im so bad at the shorthands
21:09:45 <monqy> merfolk ice elementalist
21:10:29 <Sgeo_> ...my HS isn't my TrBe?
21:10:43 <Sgeo_> I don't recall playing a SpAs
21:10:48 <elliott> 22:10 <Quelles> 45742. Sebi the Sorcerer (L22 DEWn), worshipper of Sif Muna, shot by a deep elf master archer (arrow of frost) on Elf:5 (elf hall gauntlet narrow) on 2011-01-25, with 345859 points after 132579 turns and 38:02:00.
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21:11:12 <elliott> way more than most ascensions
21:11:13 <monqy> 132579 turns isn't really a lot.
21:11:20 <elliott> i think i saw another digit there
21:11:23 <monqy> it's bad if you're aiming for turncount but
21:11:30 <elliott> missed a digit in ascension turn counts
21:11:39 <monqy> lots of people ascend in that timeframe and i guess it's decent if you don't care about turncount
21:12:21 <elliott> hmm, that means i was like 29% towards ascending
21:12:31 <monqy> what gets you shamed is if your turncount exceeds 200000 (the bots will give you a special pseudotitle "Farming")
21:12:52 <olsner> 132.5k turns is approximately one turn per second average over 38h
21:13:00 <Sgeo_> Is any farming possible in Crawl?
21:13:03 <monqy> most turns take less than a second
21:13:06 <monqy> Sgeo_: there are infinite branches
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21:13:22 <monqy> Sgeo_: and some other ways of farming too, most of which have been tamed a bit
21:13:27 <elliott> oh no not infinite branches
21:13:39 <elliott> my roguelike wouldn't have those
21:13:41 <Sgeo_> elliott, not infinite number of branches. Branches that are infinity size.
21:13:51 <elliott> geometrically it upsets me
21:13:56 <monqy> Sgeo_: also some other ridiculous ways of farming but all of them that i can think of got fixed :(
21:14:03 <elliott> especially if they don't remember so that you can go
21:14:05 <elliott> and see something different
21:14:08 <Sgeo_> elliott, don't ever try the maze in worlds.com
21:14:20 <elliott> im not kidding that makes me really uneasy
21:14:31 <elliott> that's why ADOM made me sad :(
21:14:51 <monqy> Sgeo_: like i made up one where you could get infinite powerful allies by way of polymorphing a powerful unique into a jelly, splitting it, repolying into something cool, and permataming (permataming was removed)
21:14:53 <Sgeo_> I think Worlds is the only 3d space I know of offhand where good nonsensical mazes are possible
21:15:15 <elliott> monqy: it doesn't count until it involves puddings
21:15:15 <zzo38> elliott: Going up and down stairs to see something different is only in the infinite dungeon (and in areas with multiple staircases), in ADOM.
21:15:38 <elliott> monqy: also do you really need the Farmer title punishment; the farming I know is generally considered to constitute its own punishment
21:15:43 <monqy> Sgeo_: and someone else found one where if you took uniques with you out of the abyss so they used it with a unique that stole your items to clone items
21:15:56 <elliott> but i suspect you've heard it
21:16:06 <Sgeo_> "if you took uniques with you out of the abyss" what
21:16:11 <Sgeo_> You forgot part of something
21:16:38 <monqy> put unique in abyss, find unique, find exit, get unique next to you, exit abyss, unique follows you but also stays in abyss
21:16:41 <monqy> but then it was fixed
21:16:50 <elliott> Sgeo_: "The DevTeam has arranged an automatic and savage punishment for pudding farming. It's called pudding farming."
21:17:21 <elliott> actually, it's better with the line before it on the wiki page
21:17:26 <zzo38> I think you shouldn't be allowed to duplicate uniques using any methods whatsoever. They have to make it so that all such things fail regardless of what tries to trigger it
21:17:27 <elliott> "At 16 October 2006, the Shrewd Dude posted a guide, How to Raise the Perfect Pudding. In 13 years, players have invented many strategies for more effective pudding farms, but they have also become bored. Jove stated in reply, "The DevTeam has arranged an automatic and savage punishment for pudding farming. It's called pudding farming.""
21:17:27 <monqy> most farming in crawl is either (a) performed by people who don't know that it's not worth it (b) people who like doing ridiculous farming and exploits
21:17:35 <elliott> "but they have also become bored" :')
21:18:37 <monqy> oh right there was another farming style I co-discovered where for a brief period if you used sticks to snakes and polymorphed the snakes you would get permaallies
21:19:09 <elliott> how do you "co-discover" things like that
21:19:12 <elliott> seems like a one-step process to me
21:20:09 <monqy> I discovered the snakes being nonsummons and someone else went from that and discovered that polymorphing them made them not disappear
21:20:23 <monqy> you could also get food from arrows by killing your snakes
21:21:11 <monqy> I don't think there's any equivalent of pudding farming in crawl
21:21:51 <elliott> but they're using a bigterm :( i don't understand anything any more
21:22:26 <monqy> kilobyte is well-known for hugeterm, hating square los, and being disconnected from reality
21:23:05 <elliott> why would anyone hate squarelos actually i can think of one (1) reason
21:23:43 <elliott> reason 1 out of 1: it's a bit uglier highlighted-squares-wise than a circle
21:24:01 <monqy> lots of squarelos hate is either "aesthetics" or "realism" but imo squarelos is aesthetically better and "realism" doesn't count (alternatively, squarelos is more realistic)
21:24:34 <monqy> i guess there are some gameplay arguments but they're all dumb and squarelos is much better gameplaywise
21:24:47 <elliott> i cant actually tell which is more realistic bceause
21:24:52 <elliott> in the real world people dont have 3d eyes
21:24:55 <elliott> which is more realistic help
21:26:20 <monqy> in crawl the geometry is more chebyshev than euclidean, so if you want a circle it should be a square
21:26:52 <elliott> understand crawl's geometry
21:26:59 <elliott> vagrant has a consistent geometry
21:27:26 <elliott> it's manhattan where you can jump diagonally (because you have diagonal rockets on your shoes)
21:27:41 <elliott> (also so does everyone else)
21:28:00 <elliott> except the diagonal rockets just fly up, and then go <some direction> and <another direction> to end up diagonally
21:28:03 <monqy> like movement and everything uses chebyshev distance but things like los and targeting etc try to be euclidean
21:28:14 <monqy> squarelos is still inconsistent but imo it's a better compromise than the status quo
21:28:35 <monqy> manhattan with diagonal rockets???
21:28:55 <elliott> monqy: i don't quite see how movement could use euclidean
21:28:58 <monqy> so effectively movement uses chebyshev distance but everything else is manhattan?
21:29:06 <monqy> elliott: there have been attempts to emulate it
21:29:15 <monqy> elliott: like making diagonal moves cost more
21:29:30 <monqy> of course that wouldn't actually make it euclidean but
21:29:31 <elliott> since when do diagonals cost more in euclidean space
21:29:42 <monqy> because you're moving more distance
21:29:50 <monqy> since you're on a square grid
21:30:05 <monqy> i really hate the idea of making diagonal moves cost more
21:30:16 <elliott> i don't really understand how that's euclidean at all
21:30:22 <elliott> implying walls around each tile somehow
21:30:23 <monqy> it's pretend-euclidean
21:30:35 <elliott> so you have to go south-west or whatever to go sw
21:30:46 <monqy> 2 turns per diagonal move it
21:30:52 <monqy> i forget the number
21:30:53 <elliott> how does that make it more euclidean at all
21:31:02 <elliott> i seriously don't understand in the slightest
21:32:39 <monqy> because then if you moved the same euclidean distance in any direction the times would be more uniform than with like chebyshevstyle where you can move euclidean distances faster going diagonally
21:33:06 <monqy> oh right there was a ridiculous argument about how moving diagonally is "optimal" and you might as well "rip out" your orthogonal movement keys
21:33:11 <monqy> (by kilobyte iirc)
21:33:58 <monqy> crawl on a hex grid
21:34:07 <monqy> i've never played it
21:34:27 <elliott> is it as amazing as i imagine
21:34:38 <monqy> i think i saw a screenshot of it once
21:34:54 <monqy> if my memory serves me, it was terminalbased with lots of spacing between tiles to get the hex effect
21:35:51 <monqy> http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commits/hexcrawl
21:36:26 <elliott> monqy: ais523 is the reason crawl stuff is on gitorius
21:36:28 <ais523> elliott: what are you sighing at?
21:36:40 <ais523> elliott: you can't possibly dislike it more than I dislike github
21:36:50 <elliott> yes, but i don't care how much you dislike the site crawl's code is on
21:37:34 <monqy> I don't really care about crawl code site oh wait there is something that really bothers me about gitorious but i forget what it is
21:40:01 <zzo38> I will play Dungeons&Dragons game soon I have to best some demon (or maybe they are human; I am unsure); I have some idea, but the floor is not slanted and our party seem not sufficient, and this castle is near nowhere... I do have a few other ideas though
21:40:39 <monqy> you might have to do git submodule update --init i forget if tthat's required for the first time you build it
21:40:56 <ais523> monqy: you do that if you're compiling on Windows or some other system that doesn't have the dependencies
21:41:03 <ais523> it goes and downloads the depenencies for you
21:41:04 <monqy> it's in the guide so
21:41:13 <monqy> (the compile guide)
21:41:22 <elliott> well this is an ancient branch so
21:42:03 <elliott> monqy: what los does hexcrawl have
21:42:34 -!- Ngevd has joined.
21:42:35 <oklopol> "elliott since when do diagonals cost more in euclidean space" ?
21:42:50 -!- shubshub has joined.
21:42:53 <elliott> oklopol: ask monqy i still don't understand
21:43:35 <monqy> like i think the idea is that say you have a grid like
21:43:41 <monqy> and you're on the bolded dot
21:43:57 <monqy> and you can move up or up-right
21:44:12 <monqy> both of those tiles have a chebyshev distance of 1 from you
21:44:27 <monqy> but the up upright tile has a longer euclidean distance than the up tile does
21:44:33 <oklopol> "monqy I think my first encounter with sgeo was helping him with a mfie" i read "with his wife" and o_O
21:45:23 <monqy> imagine those points form a right triangle
21:45:40 <elliott> i mean, about euclidean distance
21:46:28 <Ngevd> Is the universe euclidean?
21:46:32 <monqy> i think taking longer to diagonal is implemented but you have to enable it explicitly with some odd compiletime flag
22:27:45 <monqy> oops what have i done
22:27:48 <elliott> don't make hi a thing again
22:27:57 <monqy> remember that time when we all changed our names to monqy and said hi
22:27:58 <elliott> you & i were just regular hiing
22:28:05 <elliott> a low point in history for us
22:28:09 <elliott> though we did not realise it at the time
22:28:17 <Ngevd> I will now go away in shame
22:28:21 <elliott> Ngevd: it's ok just realise that monqy is going to take some time to be over the shadow of the hi misuse he has suffered
22:28:26 <elliott> it's not your fault we all suffered
22:33:33 <elliott> ais523: wow, Bob Harper actually codes Haskell?
22:33:46 <ais523> elliott: I've never heard of him
22:33:51 <ais523> so you can go laugh at my ignorance now if you like
22:33:58 <elliott> does http://existentialtype.wordpress.com/ ring a bell?
22:34:07 <elliott> he's a rather famous ML guy
22:34:11 <elliott> who takes potshots at Haskell every now and then
22:34:36 <oklopol> in combinatorics we often consider the angle of observation
22:34:37 <ais523> you can't take good potshots of a language without knowing quite a bit about how to write in it
22:34:42 <elliott> he's pretty much a troll when it comes to haskell in the non-(annoying-4chan-sense)
22:34:51 <ion> http://www.mytrainerbob.com/
22:34:54 <ais523> hmm, I have edited a PHP file before now, but only the HTML bits that were embedded in it, so it doesn't count
22:35:27 <ion> > let parens s = "(" ++ s ++ ")" in fix parens
22:35:28 <lambdabot> "((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((...
22:35:39 <ion> Oh, i accidentally made lambdabot generate lisp.
22:35:54 <elliott> ais523: apparently he's the origin of the "Haskell is my favourite imperative language" thing
22:36:36 <ais523> > let minimum n = "`" ++ n ++ n in fix minimum
22:36:38 <lambdabot> "``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````...
22:37:31 <elliott> really good article on boolean blindness
22:38:20 <oklopol> also damn that mathematician is smug, "i looked a bit more closely than regular people, because i know ergodic theory and advanced applied combinatorics"
22:38:40 <ion> Haskell is my favorite array-oriented data-driven audio/database programming language.
22:38:43 <oklopol> disclaimer: he never actually said that
22:39:00 <elliott> oklopol: sounds like something you would say
22:39:27 <elliott> ais523: you hate booleans, right?
22:39:30 -!- nortti has joined.
22:39:39 <ion> data Bool = False | True | FileNotFound
22:39:49 <kmc> https://github.com/search?q=awesome
22:39:53 <ais523> elliott: what makes you think I hate booleans?
22:40:00 <elliott> ion: how many years in the past do you live
22:40:03 <elliott> ais523: all reasonable people do
22:40:16 <elliott> kmc: https://github.com/search?q=epic
22:40:20 <ais523> I think I'm getting trolled, but am not sure how
22:40:29 <elliott> hmm, there's too much phone bullshit there
22:40:34 <elliott> ais523: no, I'm completely sincere
22:40:59 <ais523> what specifically do you mean? you think people shouldn't use them, or you're upset that they exist, or what?
22:41:05 <ais523> ion: VHDL has nine-valued booleans
22:41:11 <ion> elliott: I just came back from fighting the Great War. Why?
22:41:11 <elliott> I think they shouldn't be used 99% of the time they are used
22:41:33 <elliott> and I think they should probably not be in standard libraries
22:41:36 <ais523> elliott: hmm, that's likely true due to Sturgeon's Law, but doesn't it apply to other data types too?
22:41:45 <ion> whit537 / assertEquals (Python)
22:41:47 <ion> An epic testing interface for Python
22:41:53 <ion> “assertEquals” does sound epic.
22:42:27 <kmc> elliott: ;.;
22:42:29 <elliott> isn't that the thing that used to be called "testosterone" but then someone went "ugh" and he changed it
22:42:46 <elliott> if only it was a jQuery library
22:42:59 <elliott> kmc: sounds like your aim is hecked
22:43:06 <kmc> A port of Twython to Server Side Javascript (Node.js). Beautifully fun non-blocking Twitter API calls for epic win.
22:43:14 * kmc murder rampage
22:43:15 <ion> The Great War reminds me, has anyone missed the Salad Fingers series?
22:43:33 <elliott> https://github.com/search?utf8=✓&q=%22epic+win%22&repo=&langOverride=&start_value=1&type=Everything&language= why doesn't this return more results
22:43:35 <elliott> more horrible, horrible results
22:43:59 <elliott> programmers awful, news at 11
22:44:36 <ion> Start from http://www.fat-pie.com/salad.htm
22:45:11 <ion> I’m here to inquire about your spooooooons.
22:45:49 <oklopol> "elliott oklopol: sounds like something you would say" yeah but when i say it it's not quite as smug as when regular people say it.
22:46:10 <elliott> kmc: anyway no github search result can compare to any popular stupid fucking github issue or commit or whatever
22:46:19 <elliott> with all the fucking meme images in the comments
22:46:42 <elliott> HAHAHAHA U POWND THIS EPIC FAIL OF SECURITY BUG [I DON'T ALWAYS HAVE SECURITY BUGS / BUT WHEN I DO THEY'RE FROM PHP!!!]
22:46:58 <kmc> :picard hand on face:
22:47:38 <elliott> HEY GUYS WHEN I PUT COMMENTS HERE DOES IT SHOW IT TO THE TWO PEOPLE ACTUALLY RELEVANT TO THIS BUG OR IS IT JUST TO REDDIT BECAUSE I'M GOING TO TALK PAST THE FORMER
22:47:43 <elliott> ok this is too much cynicism
22:48:34 <kmc> i think software developers cling to this sort of zany internet lolrandom shite because they are afraid of becoming soulless corporate drones
22:48:37 <kmc> and they somehow think this is better
22:48:45 <ion> elliott: I never got to sample the delights of your flavor.
22:49:09 <elliott> kmc: i blame the dot com bubble
22:49:59 <kmc> github founders explicitly acknowledge this
22:49:59 <kmc> http://37signals.blogs.com/products/2008/07/how-github-used.html
22:50:09 <kmc> 'Need to show a "this page is loading" message for background operations? Make it funny. "Forking" (copying) a repository takes a while and our "Hardcore Forking Action" loading screen has become infamous among users. Adding a bit of spice into things that are normally bland, boring, and unexciting goes a long way. You are not Bank of America or any other faceless mega corporation - showing your creative side in unorthodox places is the bes
22:50:15 <kmc> YES HOW CREATIVE
22:50:21 <kmc> HOW UNORTHODOX
22:50:25 <elliott> oh shit let me check my schedule for how much time i have to read some shit the github creators wrote on 37signals' blog
22:50:35 * shubshub is making a new interpreter :D
22:50:50 <elliott> kmc: every time I see "hardcore forking action" after forking something i'm just uuuuuugh
22:50:50 <kmc> you're really "picking a fight" and "getting real" and "insert other cult in-group phrase here"
22:50:51 <nortti> shubshub: in what language?
22:50:57 <elliott> maybe there's a userscript that makes it go away
22:51:09 <ais523> elliott: it shouldn't be hard to write one
22:51:15 <ais523> I'm actually writing a userscript right now
22:51:22 <elliott> ais523: that'd expose me to it more than I otherwise would be
22:51:26 <elliott> so it'd be a net loss for /me/ to write one
22:51:31 -!- kmc has set topic: 37 signals guiltied to a zegnatronic rocket society | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:56:45 <kmc> of course the best is when the soulless corporate entity co-opts that impulse
22:57:06 <kmc> yay google built us a ballpit! they have xkcd painted on the wall! let's work 60 hour weeks!
22:57:38 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: Goodbye).
22:59:03 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
23:02:25 <elliott> kmc: you hate booleans right
23:05:59 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:13:34 -!- nortti has joined.
23:13:45 <elliott> ais523: do people argue about los in the nethack community
23:16:44 <ais523> elliott: no, because everyone's happy with the way it works already
23:16:49 <ais523> which is both realistic and consistent
23:16:52 <elliott> ais523: nethack uses squarelos right
23:17:10 <ais523> no, it uses unlimited LOS, except for light sources
23:17:21 <ais523> it uses circular LOS for light sources, but that becomes relevant so rarely that people don't care
23:17:39 <monqy> what does it use for determining how light rays bend around stuff
23:18:36 <shubshub> whats wrong with my ruby code it errors out: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=gerWTStE
23:18:52 <ais523> monqy: there are four different algorithms in the source code, with different space/time tradeoffs
23:19:06 <ais523> I'm not sure how any of them work, offhand
23:19:42 <monqy> a lot of different algorithms
23:19:49 <kmc> while github lets you add a fancy bugtracker to your repo, bugs in github itself are reported by using a web form to send an email into the abyss, Web 1.0 style
23:19:51 <monqy> are they equivalent
23:20:20 <kmc> i guess this is the norm for proprietary hosted web apps
23:21:50 <kmc> i reported a bug on google maps several months ago
23:21:52 <ais523> var spans = d.getElementsByTagName('span'); for (var si in spans) { var s = spans[si]; window.alert(s);
23:21:58 <ais523> (followed by more of the loop)
23:22:04 <kmc> i have no way to check its progress or that they even received it
23:22:09 <kmc> other than noting that the bug is still not fixed
23:22:11 <ais523> the alerts I get back from that: three HTMLSpanElements, followed by the literal integer 3
23:22:15 <kmc> bug is "google has the wrong name for my city"
23:22:16 <elliott> kmc: that's not how github issues work...
23:22:25 <elliott> ais523: "for (var" is valid?
23:22:40 <elliott> that si persists after the loop, remember
23:22:42 <ais523> like "for my $x ($y) {" in Perl
23:22:51 <ais523> elliott: it is closed, just later on
23:22:57 <elliott> it's opening the irc channel
23:23:17 <elliott> ais523: for (x in y) is sort of unreliable???
23:23:23 <elliott> it doesn't enumerate an array at all
23:23:28 <elliott> for (i = 0; i < foo.length; i++)
23:23:40 <ais523> oh, right, it might have properties other than elements
23:23:47 <ais523> monqy: it enumerates all properties
23:24:05 <ais523> an array is an object which has just numerical properties, which are its elements
23:25:25 <elliott> an array can have more and still be an array afaik
23:25:43 <ais523> yay my code isn't erroring out no
23:25:48 <ais523> boo it still isn't working
23:26:07 <ais523> actually, the alert didn't get called at all
23:28:41 <monqy> ais523: do you know if facing has ever been done well in a roguelike?
23:29:05 <monqy> since you mentioned your roguelike would have it, iirc
23:29:39 <ais523> monqy: the Mystery Dungeon series uses it, although only to simplify the controls, it has no game effects
23:29:44 <elliott> by "iirc" he means "elliott told me"
23:29:52 <monqy> no I think I read it in a log too
23:30:00 <ais523> wait, no, it has exactly one game effect
23:30:05 <ais523> if you miss an attack you step back
23:30:13 <ais523> with a particular IQ skil
23:30:19 <ais523> in Pokémon Mystery Dungeon
23:30:27 <elliott> more like pacman mystery dungeon
23:30:32 <ais523> and even if you're using an attack-around-you skill, you still have a facing, which is used to work out what direction "back" is
23:31:02 <elliott> ais523: this came up after i came up with the best crawl-with-a-different-geometry derivative ever
23:31:19 <elliott> it's better than hexcrawl, it just came after hexcrawl
23:31:26 <elliott> crawl in full euclidean space
23:31:26 <monqy> the only roguelike I can recall seeing with facing was some stealthbased 7drl but it was really clunky since it took a turn to face so moving around was annoying
23:31:32 <elliott> just rendered onto a discrete grid
23:31:39 <elliott> and you can turn in fine increments and it rotates the game world
23:31:48 <elliott> inconsistent geometry problem: solved
23:31:52 <ais523> monqy: I'd make facing usually free, unless inflicted with a status change that makes it cost turns
23:32:20 <elliott> in eucrawl i'd probably just make h and l rotate and jk step forwards/back
23:32:53 <monqy> wow it'll be hell to move around
23:32:55 <elliott> and facing would be so that turning 360 degrees takes one turn
23:33:14 <elliott> 1/360 except more because i wouldn't let you face in arbitrary degree rotations probably
23:33:36 <elliott> monqy: well i could also make it use the mouse for that
23:33:44 <elliott> and then clicking could fire a projectile weapon
23:33:52 <elliott> quick, what did right-click do in doom?
23:33:56 <elliott> oh and mouse wheel would cycle through weapons
23:34:38 <monqy> I haven;t played doom :( maybe I should
23:35:02 <elliott> monqy: doom is pretty fun but it's also
23:35:09 <ais523> wow it's so long since I wrote JavaScript
23:35:13 <ais523> I keep confusing it with other languages
23:35:14 <monqy> I thought i heard it was easy
23:35:22 <monqy> who should i believe D:
23:35:23 <elliott> monqy: really weird if you've played any more moderner fpses
23:35:29 <ais523> I can't even remember the bits of the API that aren't the DOM
23:35:34 <elliott> there's tiny tiny ledges you just
23:36:16 * ais523 looks up how to tell if a string contains another string, case-insensitively
23:36:33 <ais523> wow MDN is taking a long time to load
23:36:49 <elliott> theyre using serverside firefox
23:36:52 <elliott> dgdfjgdfgkdlghdfklgjfdhgsklgdjkhfgj
23:37:27 <elliott> monqy: hcaey ou played wolfenstein 3d
23:38:03 <ais523> combining indexOf and toLowerCase, I guess
23:38:26 <elliott> this reminds me of that the5k entry
23:38:54 <elliott> which i suspect doesn't work any more
23:39:07 <elliott> indeed not, at least not in safari
23:39:12 <elliott> someone try http://www.wolf5k.com/wolf5k.html in firefox
23:40:25 <oklopol> given that you guys have magical internet powers, i'm being asked what "that one xkcd is where a stick figure is walking out at night and thinking about meeting people there"
23:40:54 <elliott> monqy: help i'm going to implement a euclidean roguelike test thing in like two minutes if you don't stop me
23:41:02 <elliott> also it's going to be in golfed python because that's all i know how to write roguelikes in
23:41:13 <kmc> stick figure walks out at night, lectures a strawman about science
23:41:15 <oklopol> could you link the one she means though?
23:41:20 <kmc> then performs oral sex on a woman
23:41:39 <ais523> does Javascript have a multilevel continue (i.e. continue a loop that's not the top level one)? Or shall I annoy elliott by using a boolean to simulate one?
23:41:54 <elliott> there's no way you can avoid booleans in javascript
23:41:56 <kmc> you should use edwardk's javascript-with-continuations-to-javascript compiler
23:41:59 <elliott> that's one of the many reasons not to use javascript
23:42:15 <ais523> elliott: I'm writing a Greasemonkey script, not like I have much choice
23:42:17 <elliott> you can't totally avoid them in Haskell either, although I do a good job of it
23:44:12 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: nortti).
23:44:28 <elliott> kmc: did you see McBride's new language?
23:44:42 <elliott> https://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~conor/pub/Frank/test.fk
23:46:21 <monqy> elliott: i cant stop you im have to leave now and also morbidly curious bye have fun
23:46:35 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Sat Apr 28 16:46:34 2012
23:46:41 <monqy> i'll be back sometime
23:48:03 -!- Aardwolf has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:48:42 <itidus20> so, one way of putting it is: chebyshev = largest of |x| and |y|; euclidean = square root of x^2 + y^2
23:50:02 * shubshub is still working on a new interpreter
23:54:02 <itidus20> assuming dx and dy are in {-1,0,1}
23:54:11 <elliott> ais523: anyway, convince me not to imppement that
23:54:45 <elliott> 00:31 <elliott> ais523: this came up after i came up with the best crawl-with-a-different-geometry derivative ever
23:54:45 <elliott> 00:31 <elliott> after hexcrawl
23:54:45 <elliott> 00:31 <elliott> it's better than hexcrawl, it just came after hexcrawl
23:54:51 <elliott> 00:31 <elliott> crawl in full euclidean space
23:54:53 <elliott> 00:31 <monqy> the only roguelike I can recall seeing with facing was some stealthbased 7drl but it was really clunky since it took a turn to face so moving around was annoying
23:54:55 <elliott> 00:31 <elliott> fixed-point
23:54:55 <ais523> have you /seen/ Crawl's codebase?
23:54:57 <elliott> 00:31 <elliott> just rendered onto a discrete grid
23:54:59 <elliott> 00:31 <elliott> and you can turn in fine increments and it rotates the game world
23:55:01 <elliott> 00:31 <elliott> inconsistent geometry problem: solved
23:55:25 <elliott> ais523: well, 00:40 <elliott> monqy: help i'm going to implement a euclidean roguelike test thing in like two minutes if you don't stop me
23:55:31 <elliott> so it wouldn't actually be crawl (im cheating)
23:55:58 <itidus20> forward is phoenix, backwards is tortoise
23:56:18 <elliott> also, I don't even know if Python has fixed-point numbers in its standard library
23:57:15 <elliott> also, ew, the context is global-ish
23:57:19 <elliott> in which it stores the precision
23:58:25 -!- shubshub has quit (Quit: OUCH!!!).
23:58:35 <elliott> ais523: actually, I should really use a full vector image as the space
23:59:02 <elliott> (does discrete euclidean space even make /sense/?)