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00:12:36 <elliott> kmc: How come there's so much C++ programmer/Haskell programmer overlap?
00:13:55 <shachaf> Most C++ programmers have probably never heard of Haskell.
00:14:09 <elliott> Well, a lot of Haskellers also do C++, at least.
00:14:21 <shachaf> Well, C++ is a very popular language.
00:14:25 <shachaf> But I don't even know if that is true.
00:15:03 <elliott> Well, a lot of SO people who answer Haskell questions also answer C++ questions? WORK WITH ME HERE
00:15:38 <shachaf> I think SO questions are just karma-crazy.
00:16:07 <shachaf> There are a few strategies for karma: Answer specialized questions like Haskell questions, or answer mainstream questions like C++.
00:16:16 <shachaf> Probably people do some of both.
00:16:46 <elliott> I gather answering C or C++ questions doesn't get you much rep because of the high turnover rate.
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02:15:33 <shachaf> elliott: I heard kmc bought a computer at a BRICK AND MORTAR STORE.
02:15:48 <shachaf> I guess he's neither ESR nor PG.
02:15:58 <shachaf> Unless, wait, was it an Apple store?
02:16:11 <zzo38> What is ESR and PG?
02:16:44 <shachaf> kmc: Is it the new Thinkpad you were waiting for?
02:17:17 <elliott> kmc only starts talking when shachaf talks to him :'(
02:17:24 <kmc> it's a refurb thinkpad for $250
02:17:44 <kmc> cause i had no working laptop at all
02:17:53 <shachaf> What happened to your other working laptop?
02:19:18 <oerjan> elliott: what we need is a shachaf simulator
02:20:08 <elliott> Hmph, I was hoping oerjan would take care of that [[Tiny]] edit.
02:20:21 <oerjan> ...i have no idea what that meant, so no.
02:20:32 <kmc> the X200s has a cracked screen and is now in many pieces as part of a failed attempt to resolve this
02:20:41 <kmc> the old T61 has hella problems but the dealbreaker is that the fan doesn't work anymore
02:20:58 <kmc> so i bought a new refurb T61
02:21:18 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Tiny&curid=1810&diff=31902&oldid=30619
02:21:32 <kmc> thinking (inter alia) that if things go wrong with it, I can grab parts from the old T61
02:21:38 <kmc> i already cannibalized the RAM
02:21:39 <oerjan> elliott: i didn't say i didn't see it, i said i didn't know what it meant
02:21:49 <shachaf> kmc: I didn't know you could buy ThinkPads in brick-and-mortar stores.
02:21:55 <kmc> yeah, MicroCenter has some
02:22:00 <shachaf> (...I thought the main things they sold was brick and mortar.)
02:22:06 <kmc> HA HA HA HA HA
02:22:21 <kmc> you can also get refurb machines online but I think the advantage is not so great
02:22:40 <kmc> and i wanted this quickly because i am leaving town in less than a week
02:22:40 <shachaf> I bought this laptop refurbished online.
02:22:58 <kmc> i like that, if MicroCenter's refurb laptop turns out to be not so furbished after all, I can return it by walking down the street
02:23:57 <shachaf> Is this the MicroCenter people at BosHac told me to go to?
02:24:05 <kmc> flying to SF, taking the train to LA, riding in a car out to Coachella for the eponymous music festival
02:24:07 <kmc> yes this makes no sense
02:24:22 <kmc> it's a computer store in cambridge (and some other places)
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02:24:54 <shachaf> elliott: Have you ever been to cambridge (and some other places too)?
02:25:07 <kmc> shachaf, has anyone ever been etc
02:25:34 <shachaf> kmc: The part that makes no sense is that you're not going to SF by train.
02:26:22 <kmc> from Boston??
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02:27:50 <kmc> it takes /forever/
02:27:54 <kmc> and would cost more
02:28:24 <shachaf> Flying costs more of your soul.
02:28:34 <kmc> i don't actually mind flying
02:28:51 <kmc> the carbon footprint is not great, but it's still public transit of sorts
02:29:04 <shachaf> Why are you going through SF?
02:29:07 <kmc> everything about flying sucks, except the part where you're actually in the air
02:29:41 <kmc> so it's proportionally better on longer trips
02:29:44 <shachaf> Usually I'm stuck on a chair inside the airplane instead of in the air. :-(
02:29:55 <kmc> HA HA HA HA HA
02:30:23 <shachaf> I think that must be some sort of subtle cue about something...
02:30:23 <kmc> so my friends who live in SF, LA, and SD are going to Coachella
02:30:24 <elliott> Does flying really count as public transport?
02:31:14 <kmc> Coachella is much closer to those cities than to Boston
02:31:51 <kmc> so I needed to buy plane tickets long before I could get any of them to figure out their transpo plans
02:31:57 <kmc> so I reduced to a solved problem
02:32:06 <kmc> by flying to/from where one of my friends would be starting
02:32:14 <kmc> Boston to SF is also a very cheap route
02:32:22 <kmc> per mile anyway
02:32:37 <elliott> Wait, isn't LA on the other side of USillyA to SF?
02:32:44 <elliott> I... don't know much about USillyA geography.
02:32:47 <kmc> LA = Los Angeles, not Louisiana
02:33:00 <elliott> Well, you learn something every day.
02:33:11 <shachaf> SFO->SEA is cheaper than SFO->PDX.
02:33:13 <kmc> and I can be more flexible about dates if I fly to/from SF, because I have places I can stay there
02:33:21 <elliott> I think I was thinking the USA had, like, a left, a right, and a third thing.
02:33:47 <shachaf> That's pretty much how it works.
02:33:49 <kmc> SF is like 600 km north of LA; they're both in California, which is on the west coast
02:34:00 <kmc> California is a big state
02:34:09 <elliott> Yes, I realised that about 15 seconds after I asked.
02:34:32 <shachaf> I've yet to make any sense of the UK.
02:34:39 <kmc> elliott, I would call commercial airlines "public transportation", yes
02:35:09 <kmc> the term does not imply government-affiliated
02:35:41 <elliott> Right, I associated "public transport" with "public" as in state-run.
02:35:45 <kmc> lots of bus and train routes around the world are fully private
02:35:51 <kmc> many others are weird hybrids
02:35:51 <elliott> But then our trains aren't really "state-run" here either.
02:36:13 <elliott> (Oblig. daily thanks to Conservatives for ruining everything.)
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02:36:52 <elliott> I CAN'T DEAL WITH THE PRESSURE OF EVERYBODY THINKING I'M CONAL
02:36:59 <shachaf> The UK has really weird place names.
02:37:05 <elliott> I wonder how many people just never ask and go away with a significantly tarnished view of Conal.
02:37:06 <shachaf> Like New Castle Upon Thyme.
02:37:08 <kmc> in britain they sold off the right to run the trains, and sold off the infrastructure separately, and then kind of gradually bought them back in weird ways
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02:37:48 <kmc> (they = govt)
02:38:10 * elliott appreciates kmc's train wisdom.
02:38:16 <kmc> thanks elliott
02:38:25 <elliott> I was typing that before you said that.
02:38:30 <kmc> you're psychic
02:38:42 <kmc> i knew you would say that
02:38:56 <elliott> Also, 16:40:45: <elliott> kmc: that "replacement for SSH" wording + "uses SSH for login" is really confusing people
02:39:10 <kmc> do you suggest a better way to deal?
02:39:22 <elliott> Maybe it should say "replacement for interactive ssh"?
02:39:36 <elliott> Something that implies it's the actual terminally bits it's replacing, not ssh itself.
02:39:51 <shachaf> Except it's replacing more than that.
02:39:59 <shachaf> It does have its own protocol, after all.
02:40:13 <shachaf> Wouldn't want people to be overtrusting of it, would you.
02:40:32 <kmc> shachaf, some people are worried about what if Mosh drops a UDP packet while I'm typing "rm *foo\n" and it gets "rm *\n"
02:40:51 <elliott> kmc: Doesn't it sequentialise those properly?
02:41:00 <elliott> Those people are silly, then.
02:41:08 <kmc> i guess it is not common knowledge that one can implement a reliable protocol on top of UDP
02:41:13 <kmc> or that reliable protocols other than TCP exist
02:41:20 <elliott> You have to bake it into the ethernet cable itself.
02:41:23 <elliott> See, UDP is just like this big open hole.
02:41:26 <kmc> we've also been accused of "reinventing TCP" on this grounds
02:41:32 <elliott> But TCP has a bunch of gates to make sure everything goes through in the right order.
02:41:52 <elliott> I get the feeling everyone is sick of TCP nowdays.
02:41:54 <shachaf> kmc: You should invent a protocol that lets you send fds over the network.
02:42:02 <kmc> because TCP is like the platonic ideal of a reliable protocol, and there is no way you could ever do better even with total application domain knowledge
02:42:13 <kmc> I kind of think we should describe the Mosh protocol as more akin to video streaming
02:42:25 <kmc> if a packet drops, the server doesn't resend you that exact packet stream again
02:42:27 <shachaf> TCP is pretty good at what it does, to be fair.
02:42:38 <kmc> it tries to get you up to date as directly as possible
02:43:12 <elliott> kmc: Have you tried any of those ANSI films over mosh?
02:43:36 <shachaf> ANSI has gotten into the film business?
02:44:00 <pikhq> TCP could be better.
02:44:46 <elliott> shachaf: There's that Star Wars-over-telnet thing.
02:47:31 <kmc> i haven't elliott
02:52:22 <kmc> shouldn't "apt-get -f" be named "apt-get -un-f"
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02:53:24 <kmc> shachaf, well, Keith's actual graduate research is in improving TCP, so I think he thinks it can be improved :)
02:54:53 <kmc> i'm not sure it's even "pretty good"
02:54:58 <kmc> for the Internet as it exists today
02:55:05 <kmc> it deals very poorly with non-congestive losses
02:55:07 <kmc> which are common on radio
02:55:22 <kmc> so link layer protocol designers sometimes go to great lengths to hide those
02:55:24 <shachaf> But just the fact that it's from ~1974 and it actually works is pretty good.
02:55:27 <elliott> Nobody has yet been able to adequately explain to me why the internet works.
02:55:37 <elliott> AFAICT, it shouldn't. Actually, AFAICT it doesn't.
02:55:39 <kmc> we can maybe blame TCP for bufferbloat too
02:55:40 <kmc> i don't know
02:55:49 <elliott> But then it all goes and works and I don't know how or why. :(
02:55:50 <shachaf> I thought we were blaming buffers for that.
02:56:34 <elliott> shachaf: Does the internet work?
02:58:19 <shachaf> elliott: I think the answer involves pictures of cats.
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03:07:16 <zzo38> When I told someone about something near the end of one of the games in Super ASCII MZX Town series, that they tell you "You will need all of these things! Take it, please!" and leaves. They give you a bunch of ammunition, health, money, torches, and a multimeter; none of which is of the least bit of useful to you; it only serves to burden you. They told me that this game is diabolical.
03:29:38 <kmc> super latin-1 mzx town
03:30:28 <elliott> super unicode big endian mzx town
03:32:34 <shachaf> I'm getting some web server requests that start with U+FEFF
03:32:48 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether it's Unicode Big Endian or not, though.
03:37:25 <zzo38> kmc: Actually the game is based on CP437, not Latin-1
03:37:33 <shachaf> My compose key is broken. :-( <<On Windows platforms, which are mostly little endian, UTF-16LE is just called "Unicode" and UTF-16BE is just called "Unicode (Big Endian)".>>
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03:38:24 <elliott> shachaf: That doesn't make the "Unicode non-big-endian only has 65536 codepoints" thing any less true.
03:38:27 <elliott> shachaf: That doesn't make the "Unicode non-big-endian only has 65536 codepoints" thing any less false.
03:38:30 <elliott> shachaf: That doesn't make the "Unicode non-big-endian only has 65536 codepoints" thing any more true.
03:44:09 <pikhq> Windows also refers to legacy codepages as "ANSI".
03:44:16 <pikhq> That doesn't make it any less idiotic.
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04:11:38 <zzo38> findIndex p = snd . foldl (\(y, z) x -> (succP y, bool z (z <|> pure y) $ p x)) (zeroP, empty);
04:12:43 <zzo38> At least this is my version of findIndex
04:13:24 <zzo38> Has anyone ever played Final Jeopardy by themself without two opponents?
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04:20:06 <pikhq> zzo38: I don't know, but there has apparently been at least one instance of *nobody* playing Final Jeopardy.
04:34:30 <elliott> `addquote <Edwin Brady> Just seen this comment on reddit: "Parallel programming has been a solved problem for decades." I might have to stop reading the internet.
04:34:41 <HackEgo> 828) <Edwin Brady> Just seen this comment on reddit: "Parallel programming has been a solved problem for decades." I might have to stop reading the internet.
04:34:53 <elliott> (He's an esolanger, it counts!)
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04:50:25 <kmc> "parallel programming has been a solved problem for decades, but everyone is too dumb to appreciate my favorite solution"
04:50:52 <kmc> just like writing programs with no bugs
04:51:48 <elliott> My solution is to not read the internet.
04:53:35 <kmc> insert snarky remark about how the internet and the web are different
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05:03:34 <kmc> insert reference to saying something annoying, which is somehow supposed to be less annoying than saying it
05:04:12 <shachaf> Writing programs with no bugs is easy.
05:04:27 <zzo38> ...if it doesn't do anything.
05:04:29 <shachaf> Every computer program written by the majority of people alive has no bugs.
05:04:33 <qfr> What zzo38 said
05:04:48 <shachaf> Why are programmers so bad at programming?!
05:04:59 <zzo38> shachaf: Vacuously.
05:05:00 <qfr> Because most of them are human
05:06:09 <shachaf> 22:05 < Utkarsh_> How do I fix this? main = map print (map read (words getLine))
05:10:11 <kmc> with shachaf here, it's like i never really left #haskell!
05:10:34 <kmc> excuse me, bit of a sneeze
05:10:39 <zzo38> It does show you that some people do not understand Haskell
05:10:46 <kmc> zzo38: shocking
05:11:04 <shachaf> kmc: Hey, at least you don't get the dozens-of-people-typing-in-answers bit.
05:11:13 <monqy> shachaf: how predictable !
05:11:18 <monqy> shachaf: that's my new greeting now
05:11:21 <monqy> shachaf: how predictable !
05:11:35 <shachaf> have you forgotten about the power of hi monqy
05:12:49 <shachaf> - that monqy might've written
05:12:59 <shachaf> - if he was still with us today
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06:39:57 <zzo38> Is it ever possible to make a monad (or applicative) from Density comonad? I can think of return = flip Density zero . const; but then how to define join? Or, make pure and then how to define <*> or liftPair?
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06:53:43 <Sgeo> tswett, you awake?
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07:12:53 <zzo38> Or there is another way too
07:40:19 <zzo38> Maybe like this: pure = liftA2 Density const pure; liftPair (Density f1 x1, Density f2 x2) = Density (f1 . fmap fst &&& f2 . fmap snd) (liftPair x1 x2);
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07:59:26 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: Ever thought about Microcosm on A/UX?
08:10:13 <pikhq> Dammit, no working Mac emulators for the purpose.
08:11:24 <pikhq> MESS's support is a WIP, and all other emulators HLE part of the Toolbox, which A/UX doesn't even use.
08:11:59 <kmc> so get to work, jeez
08:12:47 <pikhq> I'm almost as work-averse as elliott. It's a bit of a problem.
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08:17:13 <kmc> pro nick itidus20
08:18:08 <itidus20> it was an artifact of another conversation i saw
08:18:20 <zzo38> Which game did you prefer? The game that the sun rises in the wrong place?
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11:33:24 <RocketJSquirrel> <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: Ever thought about Microcosm on A/UX? // *shakes fist*
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13:43:04 <Phantom_Hoover> RocketJSquirrel, so from now on I will always snigger whenever Americans profess a love for bacon.
13:43:04 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
13:43:40 <nortti> http://gizmodo.com/5901263/court-rules-it-is-impossible-to-steal-computer-code
13:45:49 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: Is it because you think that the uncooked junk you eat in the UK is bacon?
13:46:07 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: Or because there's better bacon in continental Europe than either of us, which is true.
13:47:55 <RocketJSquirrel> Actually, your whole breakfast selection is a lesson in poor cooking.
13:48:25 <Phantom_Hoover> What are you talking about, you people can't even make toast properly.
13:53:24 <RocketJSquirrel> I'm honestly unsure what you mean by that, but it's ironic that you'd mention it tsince to cook eggs you fucking COOK EGGS.
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13:59:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I think you only mean fried eggs here, which are cooked all the way through anyway, just not flipped.
14:00:10 <RocketJSquirrel> Having had many breakfasts in the UK, I can assure you that they are neither cooked all the way through nor flipped.
14:00:30 <RocketJSquirrel> And the fact that you describe it that way means that the {over,under} {hard,medium,easy} system is meaningless to you.
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14:05:06 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: Every foreigner eating breakfast at a restaurant for their first time in the US:
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14:24:34 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: in theory, I don't think I've cooked one in practice
14:25:00 <ais523> except if I was acting under the instructions of someone else
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14:55:54 <nortti> oh my ${DEITY}. Hv3 web browser is amazingly fast
15:08:30 <nortti> it runs on computer with 64MB of RAM
15:11:04 <nortti> and passes both Acid 1 and 2
15:13:40 <nortti> what about lynx, links2 and netsurf?
15:14:25 <RocketJSquirrel> I've considered writing a curses backend for WebKit, but (thank jebus) never followed through :)
15:14:39 <nortti> what is wrong with them
15:15:47 <RocketJSquirrel> If you want to go download some code from a project, they're super.
15:16:02 <RocketJSquirrel> If you want to replace your web browser with them, then you will live in a very small, sad version of the web.
15:16:29 <RocketJSquirrel> It's similar to the small, sad version of the web that people like ais523 who use JS blockers live in.
15:16:46 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: websplat works fine for me
15:17:12 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: I didn't even have to do that, it was pre-tweaked
15:17:20 <ais523> presumably I'd found reason to whitelist codu.org some time in the past
15:17:28 <nortti> I tried using Midori on this machine. After it had loaded its homepage form 10 mins I killed it
15:17:44 <ais523> anyway, I find that something like 90-95% of websites don't meaningfully benefit from JS
15:17:54 <nortti> and hv3 has ECMAScript support
15:18:10 <ais523> and in a significant fraction of the ones that would theoretically benefit from JS, the JS is written so badly that they're better off without it
15:18:16 <nortti> it is just turned off by default and that is good thing
15:18:49 <ais523> although, what I'm most annoyed at is websites that intentionally break blocked-JS; not as in not degrading gracefully, but as in specifically making a <noscript> tag that breaks the site and the site works fine if you use firebug to get rid of it
15:20:43 <nortti> yeah. That's fucking stupid
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15:26:18 <RocketJSquirrel> ais523: How broken is codu.org/music without JS? It has dropdown menus ...
15:26:20 <lambdabot> Local time for nortti is Fri Apr 13 17:29:11 2012
15:26:31 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Fri Apr 13 18:26:29 2012
15:26:55 <nortti> I fucking hate daylight saving time...
15:27:26 <RocketJSquirrel> It is ... considerably less broken than logic would dictate ... CSS for the win I suppose.
15:27:38 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: the menus work, but they don't have an opaque background
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15:27:49 <ais523> and the "rescheme this page" link doesn't work, for what I hope are completely obvious reasons
15:30:31 <lambdabot> Local time for nortti is Fri Apr 13 18:33:16 2012
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16:32:57 <elliott> "The simplest explanation I can give for monads is that they take a basic data type and wrap it in a computation. This results in a new type that carries around a computation (or action, if you like) along with it."
16:33:09 <elliott> i need to be a mod of /r/haskell so i can delete posts like that
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16:44:47 <Mathnerd314> elliott: s/in a computation// and I think it's OK
16:44:51 <ais523> elliott: gah, it's not wrong /enough/ to not be confusing
16:46:23 <Mathnerd314> so my post would be: "The simplest explanation I can give for monads is that they take a basic data type and wrap it. This results in a new type."
16:47:30 <elliott> that was not the s// you sai
16:47:39 <elliott> anyway "wrap it" implies "the result contains it"
16:47:54 <elliott> s/monad/comonad/ might be the easiest way to make it not totally wrong :)
16:53:18 <elliott> "Note: for those of you that cannot do better than coming up with boring, witless comments and even suggestions to close a valid question, please see the accepted answer here: Using GNU/Linux system call `splice` for zero-copy Socket to Socket data transfers in Haskell as an excellent example of how to be of proper help to those that really seek constructive answers!!"
16:53:25 <elliott> The best part is that the answer they got to that question was wrong.
17:06:54 <kmc> the simplest explanation i can give for monads is that they're cake
17:07:43 <itidus22> all i know is they're not related to the monadology (or i hope not else i would be wrong)
17:07:57 <ais523> elliott: bleh, the backquotes there made me think splice was (1) rather than (2)
17:08:01 <ais523> but AFAIK there isn't a splice(1)
17:08:17 <ais523> what was the question, anyway? that seems like a valid answer to at least one question
17:09:02 <elliott> "that question" in my line is "Using GNU/Linux ..."
17:09:19 <elliott> They put that at the top of their question to whine after people criticised and closed the question as off-topic.
17:09:20 <ais523> I assumed that was the answer, not the question
17:09:39 <elliott> (It was a request for someone to benchmark RSA implementations.)
17:09:43 <ais523> as in "if you aren't getting enough performance from your userspace program, why not use a syscall that does the same thing instead"?
17:09:46 <kmc> also shouldn't it be "Linux system call" not "GNU/Linux system call"
17:10:14 <ais523> phrases like "GNU/Linux system call" can only meaningfully refer to things like readdir(3)
17:10:37 <elliott> ais523: the `splice` thing was another question by the same person
17:10:45 <elliott> ais523: which got a wrong answer from someone who didn't know Haskell
17:10:46 <ais523> (readdir is typically a syscall, but glibc readdir is a wrapper around getdents(2)
17:11:00 <elliott> (it appears to work, but is broken, because they don't understand GHC's IO manager, because they don't know any Haskell)
17:11:23 <elliott> (and of course now the broken library is on hackage hogging the name so that nobody competent can put up a working package)
17:12:21 <ais523> what sort of breakage is involved? the meaning being wrong so that the optimiser can change an incidentally-correct naive version into an incorrect optimised version?
17:12:37 <elliott> err, that seems an awfully specific reason to guess without having any context
17:13:03 <ais523> it is, but it's quite a common one wrt Haskell and unsafePerformIO
17:13:08 <elliott> the answer was "to avoid the syscall returning EAGAIN, set the socket to blocking mode"
17:13:22 <elliott> GHC, as you might know, does all IO through an event loop using non-blocking IO
17:14:29 <ais523> this is why CPAN has so many vaguely similar namespaces
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17:39:10 <elliott> kmc: how can i make ssh-agent prompt me for my key password on first login
17:39:26 <kmc> try the ssh-agent manpage
17:41:11 <kmc> re: nonblocking IO: sigh
17:42:45 <elliott> both me and bryan o'sullivan pointed out it's a bad idea on reddit but they didn't believe us
17:43:09 <elliott> we just don't know as much as $random_SO_answerer_who_doesn't_know_Haskell
17:46:38 <elliott> kmc: can you fix haddock so i can doc things in the export list
17:47:47 <Deewiant> elliott: I do it in my .xinitrc, but if you want to maintain ssh-agent across login sessions you might be interested in keychain: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Using_SSH_Keys#Keychain
17:48:17 <elliott> Deewiant: Hmm, how do you do it in .xinitrc?
17:48:24 <Deewiant> if ! ssh-add < /dev/null; then
17:48:32 <elliott> Deewiant: Yes, but what about your key password?
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17:48:58 <elliott> Deewiant: How? .xinitrc doesn't run in a terminal, does it?
17:49:28 <Deewiant> If ssh-add needs a passphrase, it will read the passphrase from
17:49:28 <Deewiant> the current terminal if it was run from a terminal. If ssh-add
17:49:28 <Deewiant> does not have a terminal associated with it but DISPLAY and
17:49:30 <Deewiant> SSH_ASKPASS are set, it will execute the program specified by
17:49:32 <Deewiant> SSH_ASKPASS and open an X11 window to read the passphrase. This
17:49:35 <Deewiant> is particularly useful when calling ssh-add from a .xsession or
17:49:37 <Deewiant> related script. (Note that on some machines it may be necessary
17:49:40 <Deewiant> to redirect the input from /dev/null to make this work.)
17:49:54 <elliott> Huh. What does SSH_ASKPASS default to / what do you have it set to?
17:50:04 <Deewiant> /usr/lib/openssh/qt4-ssh-askpass
17:50:43 <elliott> Anyway, what I essentialy want is for it to ask me for my key pw on first ssh login (just like if I didn't use ssh-agent), but then remember it thereafter for the rest of the X session.
17:50:43 <Deewiant> It defaults to empty, presumably. :-P
17:50:56 <elliott> Just like sudo, more or less.
17:51:00 <elliott> (Except without the timeout.)
17:51:01 <Deewiant> There are various dialogs, this one is community/openssh-askpass.
17:51:37 <Deewiant> So you probably want keychain, and then make ssh a shell script that runs keychain and then ssh, or something.
17:52:02 <elliott> Yes, the "make ssh a shell script" is the part I don't want to do. Especially since I'm not sure how mosh would like that.
17:52:47 <Deewiant> Alternatively, make it an alias in your .${SHELL}rc ;-P
17:53:14 <elliott> Deewiant: Well, that would completely defeat the point, since I don't use ssh directly.
17:53:16 <Deewiant> I doubt ssh itself supports starting up an ssh-agent if necessary.
17:53:40 <Deewiant> Well, I'd try the shell script way.
17:53:47 <elliott> I wouldn't be surprised if ssh let you set up "command to run before connecting", or something.
17:53:53 <elliott> In which case I could merely make it ssh-add.
17:54:06 <Deewiant> I don't see why mosh shouldn't like a shell script, if you do it right.
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17:54:56 <elliott> kmc: Hey, will mosh like a shell script?
17:55:23 <elliott> Deewiant: It occurs to me that a shell script would be very tricky to get right if I used ssh to more than one server.
17:55:37 <elliott> (Okay, to more than one server and where one of them isn't authenticated by that pubkey.)
18:08:36 <kmc> will it... like... a script? what do you mean?
18:08:55 <kmc> i guess i should read scrollback
18:09:15 <kmc> if ssh is really a shell script that invokes ssh
18:09:23 <kmc> and it still supports ssh's command line syntax
18:09:23 * elliott is glad his question was as unhelpful as he tried to make it
18:09:29 <kmc> then mosh should be fine
18:09:47 <elliott> kmc: Okay. It still feels wrong. :(
18:09:57 <elliott> Like, what if it suddenly didn't???
18:10:00 <elliott> Then scp wouldn't do what I want any more.
18:10:03 <Deewiant> According to its manpage, yes.
18:10:34 <kmc> we're thinking of supporting mosh --ssh="~/whatever/ssh --foo --bar"
18:10:41 <kmc> or you know --ssh="rsh" if that's your think
18:10:55 <kmc> except I think that won't work because it uses too many ssh-specific options
18:15:04 <kmc> WE NEED TO GO DEEPER
18:15:21 <elliott> > fix (\mosh -> "mosh --ssh=" ++ show mosh)
18:15:23 <lambdabot> "mosh --ssh=\"mosh --ssh=\\\"mosh --ssh=\\\\\\\"mosh --ssh=\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"...
18:15:35 <kmc> you aren't using my posix-escape package !!
18:15:50 <elliott> <mekeor> do you know this? http://news.ycombinator.com/
18:16:19 <elliott> kmc: "For safety, these functions drop all non-ASCII characters." :(
18:16:28 <kmc> blame ghc not me
18:16:34 <kmc> (there is a Unicode submodule tho)
18:16:38 <elliott> are you sure I can't blame Unix instead
18:16:46 <elliott> I like to blame all problems involving Unix on Unix
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18:18:05 <elliott> awesome, Rob Pike has brand new definitions of concurrency and parallelism
18:18:34 <elliott> (okay, they're fairly close to the GHC devs' definition)
18:21:18 <elliott> ion: Is tomodo always this funny?
18:22:56 <ion> Hmm, i don’t remember.
18:37:28 <elliott> shachaf: Since when is rank-2 type inference decidable?
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19:00:51 <elliott> search for "esolang" on google
19:01:00 <elliott> An overview of the language, history, and example code.
19:01:20 <elliott> http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Brainfuck/ dmoz
19:08:30 <qfr> http://www.dmoz.org/img/moz/moz_gamer.gif
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19:26:30 <itidus21> http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Obfuscated/
19:27:49 <elliott> oerjan: since when is rank-2 inference decidable
19:32:04 <oerjan> elliott: i vaguely recall seeing that mentioned
19:32:23 <elliott> it am go against my intuition :(
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19:39:49 <pikhq> http://research.swtch.com/qart Hey, it makes graphical QR codes without hoping the error handling works. Neat.
19:42:10 <elliott> Hmm, research!rsc didn't look like that a year ago.
19:42:15 <oerjan> elliott: i assume that might have something with Rank2 and RankN being different extensions.
19:45:08 <elliott> oerjan: does GHC implement the full inference for rank-2 types, though?
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19:53:11 <elliott> In the comments of that post.
19:57:09 <oerjan> <elliott> I CAN'T DEAL WITH THE PRESSURE OF EVERYBODY THINKING I'M CONAL <-- hird of conal-replacing elliotts
19:57:54 <olsner> elliott: I don't understand, are you conal?
19:58:13 <ion> `addquote <elliott> I CAN'T DEAL WITH THE PRESSURE OF EVERYBODY THINKING I'M CONAL
19:58:23 <HackEgo> 829) <elliott> I CAN'T DEAL WITH THE PRESSURE OF EVERYBODY THINKING I'M CONAL
20:09:20 <oerjan> that's when you do with your fingers like *this*
20:10:43 <oerjan> i'm afraid i don't know froge. now nn:fråge, otoh, that's a different en:question
20:11:29 <itidus21> it seems that the noise of the snap is using the thumb to increase the power with which you collide a finger against your palm
20:12:11 <oerjan> hm actually i'm not sure that is nynorsk at all. the first google hit for fråge nynorsk is not encouraging.
20:12:26 <itidus21> somehow i always thought it was the thumb against the finger that made the noise
20:12:51 <elliott> wow norwegian wikipedia only has 335k articles
20:13:32 <itidus21> in 100 years, esolangs.org will probably be the most important website
20:13:39 * oerjan hits elliott with the saucepan ===\__/
20:14:37 <oerjan> (to be honest, i rarely bother with the norwegian wikipedia myself)
20:14:54 <oerjan> it's nice for translating species names, though :P
20:15:10 <itidus21> i sometimes check alternate wikis on a topic just to see if theres different content
20:16:03 <itidus21> this probably goes even worse than it seems since i rarely translate it
20:16:49 <itidus21> when i see a blurb of text in a foreign language i am not very good at anticipating what it says
20:17:08 <itidus21> the odds of being wrong are very high
20:17:31 <oerjan> itidus21: my best snap is when i let the middle finger hit just between the palm and the ring finger resting on it
20:18:03 <itidus21> oerjan: it's a bit like how the japanese speed up their sword drawing by pressing it against the sheath
20:18:16 <oerjan> it's not exactly a world-class one, though
20:18:42 <elliott> world class snapping contest
20:19:55 <itidus21> its quite incredible the speed of a snap..
20:20:31 <itidus21> i don't entirely understand the mechanics of why it works so well
20:24:33 <oerjan> http://www.mezzacotta.net/owls/?comic=425
20:25:50 <elliott> oerjan: ps team hexham hit 20k take that trondheim losers we r on 2 u
20:29:21 <oerjan> fortunately it has wide streets to prevent fire from spreading
20:29:48 <oerjan> that doesn't help the block where it starts, though
20:30:59 <shachaf> elliott: Rank-2 type inference is decidable?
20:31:54 <kmc> believe so
20:33:22 <shachaf> Well, I want my money back.
20:33:35 <elliott> Type inference for rank-2 polymorphism is decidable, but reconstruction for rank-3 and above is not.[1]
20:33:40 <elliott> ^ a b c Pierce, B. C. 2002 Types and Programming Languages. MIT Press.
20:33:49 <oerjan> shachaf: no, but you can switch it for a new rank-n for free
20:34:53 <shachaf> I should probably read TaPL.
20:37:36 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know he's also a Christian right-winger? :(
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20:59:22 <Mathnerd314> are there many esolangs based on pattern-matching?
21:00:04 <Mathnerd314> I'd count /// as one, but that's probably it...
21:02:58 <oerjan> REGXY is linked from ///
21:03:28 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:String-rewriting_paradigm
21:04:34 <elliott> There's also http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Pattern-based, which is... sort of related.
21:07:06 <Mathnerd314> those all seem to use a pattern-matcher for implementing, but don't have a pattern-matching construct
21:07:41 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, saw this and thought of you: http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/s6i49/why_are_there_so_few_logicians_but_so_many_people/c4bieem
21:08:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That person is just a wimp who can't handle the cardinals.
21:15:22 <pikhq> Still, its pattern matching semantics *are* pretty weird.
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21:36:59 <pikhq> archive.org currently has 1,000 external hard drive enclosures for sale.
21:37:40 <pikhq> The reason? In a fit of complete economic inefficiency, currently the cheapest way to get a hard drive is to buy an external drive and remove the drive from the enclosure.
21:38:16 <pikhq> For details, jscott@archive.org
21:38:54 <elliott> hmm, aren't external HDs lower quality than internal HDs?
21:39:21 <pikhq> No, they're generally just internal HDs shoved in an enclosure.
21:42:01 <zzo38> pikhq: I do like awk for text-processing though
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21:42:38 <pikhq> zzo38: As you should: that's the one thing it does well.
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21:48:53 <zzo38> Perhaps I could write some phlog journal messages about idea of Ibtlfmm, in case you are interested about that. But maybe the syntax *(x) -> {x} -> * is not so good because of the datakinds kind K x = K * (x -> x); it might use ( for grouping too. Maybe this syntax better? (* =x) -> {x} -> * or something else you have idea?
21:49:59 <zzo38> Do you even like this feature at all? Or can find any problems it would cause? If so, I would like to fix it
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22:07:23 <elliott> * Glor (889f1007@gateway/web/freenode/ip.136.159.16.7) has joined #haskell
22:07:24 <elliott> <Glor> hello i know this is not a prolog channel but noone is in prolog and im wondering if i could ask a question about prolog in here
22:07:47 <zzo38> elliott: Do you know Prolog?
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22:11:50 <nortti> I used it few years ago. I don't think I can remember the syntax though
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22:17:44 <zzo38> What is your opinion of the Ibtlfmm's extended kind system? Is crazy? Is good? Is bad? Is you don't know?
22:18:55 <zzo38> Then you must learn.
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22:23:31 <elliott> oerjan: oh btw i had a question for you
22:23:46 <elliott> oerjan: you mentioned how relations were (co+contra)variant in both parameters
22:23:48 <Mathnerd314> elliott: you could have had him ask on #esoteric :p
22:24:02 <elliott> oerjan: that got me to thinking, is there a nice way to define relations constructively in type theory...
22:24:10 <elliott> Mathnerd314: the prolog guy? i considered it
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22:26:56 <oerjan> elliott: A -> B -> Bool ?
22:30:17 <oerjan> although that doesn't give that covariance, i think
22:30:53 <oerjan> while [(A,B)] doesn't give contravariance
22:31:18 <elliott> oerjan: well the variance always gets messed up in type theory, it seems
22:31:27 <elliott> oerjan: e.g. a set is (a -> Bool)
22:31:41 <elliott> oerjan: but sets are both co- and contravariant in set theory
22:31:55 <elliott> in type theory you lose the co-, I think because it's not constructive enough
22:32:16 <elliott> (actually shouldn't it be (a -> Prop))
22:32:27 <elliott> (I think it should, you can construct sets based on undecidable propositions)
22:33:31 <elliott> <copumpkin> well, computationally, that roughly describes a decidable binary relation
22:33:31 <elliott> <copumpkin> a real one is a -> a -> Prop
22:33:33 <elliott> holy fucking synchronicity
22:33:42 <zzo38> I have seen a different kind of set in some Haskell code using (a -> Bool) -> a but there are no empty sets
22:34:17 <zzo38> But this is not contravariant; if it is then it is not Functor
22:38:52 <Phantom_Hoover> what is the difference i am but a simple mathematician
22:40:11 <zzo38> How do you represent the undecidable propositions?
22:41:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Prop is the type of all proposition types.
22:41:47 <elliott> Usually you say that all values x,y : P where P : Prop are equal (proof irrelevance).
22:41:52 <elliott> Bool is just a two-element type.
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22:42:24 <zzo38> How can a type have types?
22:42:29 <elliott> zzo38: Hmm, (a -> Bool) -> a is the impossible infinite search stuff, right?
22:42:34 <elliott> And because it's types all the way down in type theory.
22:42:43 <elliott> T : Type : Type[1] : Type[2] : and so on
22:43:47 <zzo38> elliott: (a -> Bool) -> a is the one for infinite search. I have read, that it is a monad even if you replace Bool with something else. But it cannot be empty. Maybe if you had a transformer you can transform Maybe and make it empty?
22:44:20 <elliott> Hmm, how do you represent (singleton x) and (member x s) with that?
22:46:37 <elliott> Is member x s = s (== x) == x?
22:47:26 <zzo38> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/infinite-search/0.12/doc/html/src/Data-Searchable.html
22:48:07 <elliott> join is a bit more powerful an operation than union.
22:48:34 <elliott> Can union be defined simply without bigUnion?
22:49:01 <Sgeo> Although I think that choice was sort of settled for me when I introduced her to Arimaa first
22:50:15 <elliott> zzo38: I can't figure out how to inline bigUnion in union to get a simpler definition. :(
22:50:52 <zzo38> elliott: I don't know either (but that might simply be because I haven't tried)
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23:04:51 <elliott> zzo38: (a -> Bool) -> Maybe a does indeed seem to work
23:06:04 <zzo38> Can it make a transformer? newtype SetT b m a = SetT ((a -> b) -> m a);
23:10:28 <Phantom_Hoover> <Sgeo> Although I think that choice was sort of settled for me when I introduced her to Arimaa first
23:10:41 <elliott> zzo38: Dunno about that, even with b = Bool
23:10:45 <elliott> zzo38: The join defn. depends on forsome
23:10:50 <elliott> Dunno how to implement forsome for any m
23:13:14 <elliott> zzo38: Do you know where you read that it's a monad even if you replace Bool?
23:13:19 <elliott> I'd be interested in reading the same.
23:17:51 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, which is a better game
23:18:06 <Phantom_Hoover> <Phantom_Hoover> <Sgeo> Although I think that choice was sort of settled for me when I introduced her to Arimaa first
23:18:29 <Sgeo> Do you really want to know?
23:19:03 <Phantom_Hoover> My curiosity is going to get the better of me whatever I do.
23:19:29 <zzo38> elliott: http://math.andrej.com/2008/11/21/a-haskell-monad-for-infinite-search-in-finite-time/
23:20:29 <Sgeo> Although I'm not a fan of "3/4 blind" as an insult the way to seemed to just now
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23:25:00 <elliott> zzo38: Oh, that also explains why Maybe won't work.
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23:28:18 <elliott> @djinn ((a -> Bool) -> a) -> (a -> (b -> Bool) -> b) -> (b -> Bool) -> b
23:28:19 <lambdabot> c (b (a (\ _ -> False)) (\ _ -> False)))
23:28:30 <elliott> @djinn ((a -> bool) -> a) -> (a -> (b -> bool) -> b) -> (b -> bool) -> b
23:28:30 <lambdabot> f a b c = b (a (\ d -> c (b d c))) c
23:29:06 <Sgeo> zzo38, what do you think of Arimaa?
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23:36:47 <elliott> siracusa has been in here?
23:38:04 <monqy> don't encourage him, sgeo
23:38:11 <monqy> you aren't an enabler are you
23:39:33 <Sgeo> Ugh, how much does a chess set cost
23:39:49 <Sgeo> If it's much less than $40, I'll have to consider this Arimaa set a bit of a ripoff
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23:41:03 <Sgeo> Although for playing Arimaa, I would want Arimaa pieces
23:41:03 <calamari> you can get a chess set at the dollar store
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23:41:21 <shachaf> Can you get a chess set at the $40 store?
23:41:24 <Sgeo> "The Arimaa set also doubles as an animal theme Chess set when you flip over the board. Kids love playing with the animal theme pieces, making Chess more fun and interesting for them."
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23:41:40 <Sgeo> That's... vaguely offensive to anyone who wants to teach chess, I think
23:42:00 <shachaf> My name is elliott, and I'm offended by this message.
23:42:05 <monqy> i dont want to teach chess, so im not offended
23:42:16 <calamari> a nice wood board and pieces will cost a bit more tho
23:42:33 <Sgeo> http://arimaa.com/arimaa/store/gameSet.html
23:44:16 * Sgeo has never heard of SolidCoin before
23:44:45 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
23:45:18 <Sgeo> http://solidcoinmafia.com/
23:45:27 <Sgeo> "SolidCoin Mafia is a Bitcoin merged mining pool that pays out in SolidCoins. When a Bitcoin block is won those Bitcoins are taken to various exchanges and used to buy SolidCoins using a variety of algorithms."
23:47:29 -!- AndGregor has joined.
23:49:15 <elliott> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=73986.0 sloidcarn
23:49:22 <elliott> hello Sgeo welcome to slayedcairn
23:49:28 <elliott> holy shit it accidentally became metal
23:49:34 <elliott> i want to live in slayedcairn
23:49:37 -!- AndGregor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:49:52 -!- AndGregor has joined.
23:50:14 <AndGregor> Oh, wireless disconnects when it sleeps :-)
23:50:54 <Sgeo> "and how is it better? people who create it take more care about end-user then bitcoin people"
23:50:54 <calamari> I was having that trouble on my wii
23:51:06 <Sgeo> "e.g. Instead of waiting 1 hour for 6 confirms, it goes a lot faster"
23:51:13 <calamari> so I just had it ping the router every few seconds
23:51:13 <elliott> AndGregor: since when do you :-)
23:54:05 <elliott> "Well, looks like this is pretty much dead courtesy of a >51% attack by Luke Jr. The more interesting features should in theory be available in Bitcoin eventually - including the removal of existing legacy Bitcoin addresses if Luke Jr gets his way (he was threatening to refuse to mine transactions using them). No idea when though and I certainly won't be developing the tools to make use of them."
23:56:09 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: nortti).
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23:58:20 <Sgeo> Wait, luke jr has control of BitCoin?
23:58:26 <Sgeo> What is "this" here?
23:58:31 <Sgeo> SolidCoin, or what?
23:58:43 <elliott> theyrel ike brianfuck derivatives
23:58:50 <elliott> in that all their creators have bricks for brains
23:59:04 <monqy> he has complete cointrol
23:59:12 <calamari> but.. but.. I created a brainfuck derivative :(
23:59:23 <Sgeo> As have we all. As have we all.
23:59:29 <monqy> didn't you make a brainfuck derivative, elliott
23:59:34 <elliott> # Convert ehird's "brainfuck to B Nomic platonic autoaction english" to brainfuck