00:03:37 <elliott> ais523: By the way, PayPal works without an account.
00:03:44 <elliott> But I bet they still won't promise to not keep your credit card on file.
00:09:07 <RocketJSquirrel> prgmr also offers prepaid cards at conventions, so you could just road-trip 'round from convention to convention buying cards from 'em :)
00:09:40 -!- NihilistDandy has joined.
00:10:18 <ais523> a silly plan that could work, would be to find a UK-based provider, then get a new debit card, and then FOIA away the old one from their files
00:10:25 <ais523> although that's a nomic-scam-level of legal silliness
00:11:12 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I'm sure ais523 has a moral objection to roads. Or conventions.
00:11:54 <ais523> elliott: well, I found a VPS that allows you to pay by cheque
00:12:01 <ais523> although it has to be made out from a French bank, in euros
00:12:39 <ais523> let's see if their other terms are legal
00:12:46 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: neither do I, because I don't have a chequebook
00:12:53 <ais523> however, I've requested them printed for me a couple of times at the bank
00:12:55 <elliott> ais523: Is this another one of those update lists I can't get off of?
00:13:07 <ais523> oh, like the tab=8 list?
00:13:18 <ais523> that's your fault for having an incorrect opinion
00:13:19 <elliott> Though I suppose that is another example, yes.
00:13:25 <elliott> But not the one I was thinking of.
00:13:31 <RocketJSquirrel> <ais523> however, I've requested them printed for me a couple of times at the bank // yes, this I've done too.
00:13:54 <elliott> Cheques are more common here than in the US, I believe.
00:14:13 <RocketJSquirrel> Which is funny since you don't even know how to spell the word *ba-dum lame*
00:15:56 <ais523> elliott: I thought they were more common in the US
00:16:10 <ais523> wow, this place also offers 3 and a half nines SLA, it's the highest I've seen
00:16:19 <ais523> from a budget VPS provider
00:16:23 <ais523> although that's all reasonably meaningless
00:17:02 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Actualy, 365ezone _don't_ autocharge.
00:17:07 <elliott> And allow you to pay by credit card.
00:17:13 <elliott> I just checked their "Terms & Condition" (singular).
00:17:18 <elliott> They don't promise not to store the card, though.
00:17:28 <elliott> However, I don't believe they qualify for the status of "VPS provider".
00:17:50 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: Hey! They are best having cheap VPS for good hosts!
00:20:55 <ais523> bleh, there are actually impossible restrictions in this ToS
00:21:00 <ais523> such as preventing the IP ending up on a spam blacklist
00:21:12 <ais523> which is reasonable, but in theory the spam blacklist people can do what they like
00:21:14 <ais523> and sometimes in practice too
00:22:00 <ais523> it took a bit of work to find it
00:23:44 <elliott> http://libm.so//?gtnjs=13334125907ba0f6ec9971d6d063c918e391bfc4c1
00:24:10 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: YEAH I DON'T OWN THAT ONE EITHER THANKS FOR REMINDING ME
00:24:52 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: But it's for sale!
00:26:37 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Can you write my PHP for me?
00:27:53 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Can you write my PHP for me better?
00:28:37 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: What's the best nickname for a bot that parrots Esolang recentchanges in here?
00:29:28 <itidus21> libk.so looks like this: http://libk.so
00:29:38 -!- elliott has changed nick to esolan.
00:29:39 -!- esolan has changed nick to esolang.
00:30:03 <ais523> you could consider "solidity", unless we have too much of that already
00:30:44 <ais523> "esolang" is simpler, at least
00:33:29 -!- esolang has changed nick to elliott.
00:33:46 <ais523> OK, gandi's ToS is really reasonable in most respects
00:33:56 <elliott> "If this message is spam, please contact support@freenode.net with a full copy." --freenode
00:34:06 <ais523> the spam blacklist thing is the only weird bit, and I guess it's OK to just make a best effort to comply with it
00:34:13 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:34:21 <ais523> elliott: and that's presumably for the purpose of anyone impersonating them having to add it too
00:34:43 <elliott> i suspect it's for people who spam registrations to an address
00:35:11 <elliott> did you know that MediaWiki's recent-changes streaming support is based on UDP?
00:35:31 <elliott> presumably because they can't just run a daemon, they have to do it in a PHP script which has to terminate quickly, so they just send a UDP packet
00:36:11 <ais523> UDP's designed for that sort of thing
00:36:17 <ais523> port number? port of a program?
00:37:03 <elliott> port number for the UDP server I'll run
00:37:13 <elliott> (I'm going to write a Perl program to receive the UDP requests and forward them to IRC)
00:37:18 <ais523> do you want it root-owned or high?
00:37:24 <elliott> really, it should be able to use a unix socket
00:37:44 <elliott> ais523: either is fine; latter is probably preferable, as I can just run the bot as my user
00:37:49 <elliott> and not have to deal with privilege-dropping code
00:37:57 <elliott> also, less likely to step on toes
00:38:19 <ais523> I'd just pick a random number, probably
00:38:54 <ais523> (actually random, I just ran a randomizer)
00:39:41 <elliott> that's not a power of two _or_ a prime!
00:42:03 <elliott> shachaf: what's the best prime?
00:46:11 <elliott> shachaf: what's the best prime?
00:46:16 <elliott> ais523: what's the best prime UK ISP?
00:46:33 <ais523> elliott: I'm not sure if I can think of any numeric ISPs
00:47:05 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Tue Apr 3 01:47:01
00:47:18 <lambdabot> Local time for ion is Tue Apr 3 03:46:46 2012
00:47:23 * pikhq shall have to create a new ISP: 2^2-1
00:47:32 <elliott> pikhq: What's the best prime?
00:47:38 <shachaf> elliott: It's the only even prime.
00:47:38 <ion> How does lambdabot know that? By GeoIP?
00:48:01 <ion> Oh, i should have looked at the status window. :-D
00:48:15 <pikhq> elliott: Objectively? http://primes.utm.edu/curios/page.php?number_id=953
00:48:27 <ais523> OK, I think gandi meet all my criteria for selecting a VPS provider, which is great
00:48:31 <ais523> now I'll go look for an even better one
00:48:38 <ais523> what did RocketJSquirrel suggest again?
00:48:44 <ion> pikhq: FTFY: 2²−1
00:48:56 <shachaf> elliott: Tell ion to take me off /ignore.
00:49:12 <elliott> wait, "CAPTCHA" is derived from "capture"?
00:49:24 <ais523> elliott: no, it's an acronym
00:49:26 <RocketJSquirrel> ais523: 365ezone is best deal for quality VPS serving time
00:49:28 <elliott> ais523: He wasn't suggesting it.
00:49:36 <elliott> ais523: The term "CAPTCHA" was coined in 2000 by Luis von Ahn, Manuel Blum, Nicholas J. Hopper, and John Langford (all of Carnegie Mellon University). It is an acronym based on the word "capture" and standing for "Completely Automated Public Turing test to tell Computers and Humans Apart"
00:49:42 <elliott> "Acronyms are sometimes contrived, that is, deliberately designed to be especially apt for the thing being named (by having a dual meaning or by borrowing the positive connotations of an existing word). Some examples of contrived acronyms are USA PATRIOT, CAN SPAM, CAPTCHA and ACT UP."
00:50:39 <ais523> they, umm, have a specific Minecraft server option, how ridiculous
00:50:43 <shachaf> ais523: I heard NetHack 4.2.0 was released.
00:50:56 <elliott> ais523: How is that ridiculous?
00:50:57 <ion> All the potheads rejoiced?
00:50:59 <elliott> Setting Bukkit up is annoying.
00:51:05 <elliott> Especially if you've never used Linux.
00:51:13 <ais523> elliott: I'm amazed that it's a large enough market for it to be worth money to be in
00:51:47 <elliott> ais523: Seriously? Over 5 million people have bought Minecraft.
00:51:48 <ion> @time do_you_take_a_parameter
00:51:54 <elliott> It's made Notch a multi-millionaire.
00:52:02 <elliott> It's had its own bloody conference in Vegas. It's huge.
00:53:18 <pikhq> Minecraft is one of the top 10 best-selling PC games by now, isn't it?
00:53:22 <elliott> What about a Minecraft condom? I HAD TO GO THERE OK.
00:53:32 <ion> @time preflex
00:53:33 <lambdabot> Local time for preflex is 2012-04-03 00:53WHERE IS SARAH CONNOR?
00:54:17 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX18901.hs:1:1: \ Parse error: naked expression at top level
00:54:18 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX18945.hs:1:1: \ Parse error: naked expression at top level
00:54:20 <RocketJSquirrel> It's a Minecraft conscription. If you live in Vegas, there's a decent chance you'll get conscripted into the Minecraft army.
00:54:31 <elliott> !haskell main = print $ randomRIO (1,2)
00:54:33 <elliott> !haskell main = print $ randomRIO (1,2)
00:54:34 <elliott> !haskell main = print $ randomRIO (1,2)
00:54:34 <elliott> !haskell main = print $ randomRIO (1,2)
00:54:36 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX19041.hs:1:16: Not in scope: `randomRIO'
00:54:38 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX19132.hs:1:16: Not in scope: `randomRIO'
00:54:39 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX19145.hs:1:16: Not in scope: `randomRIO'
00:54:40 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX19146.hs:1:16: Not in scope: `randomRIO'
00:54:51 <elliott> !haskell import System.Random; main = print $ randomRIO (1,2)
00:54:53 <elliott> !haskell import System.Random; main = print $ randomRIO (1,2)
00:54:56 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX19259.hs:1:8: \ Could not find module `System.Random' \ Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
00:54:58 <EgoBot> \ /tmp/runghcXXXX19265.hs:1:8: \ Could not find module `System.Random' \ Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
00:55:03 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: You're fucking kidding me.
00:55:21 <ais523> 365ezone do not inspire me with confidence about their competence
00:55:39 <RocketJSquirrel> ais523: 365ezone having best deals for VPS in your good hosting service!
00:55:43 <ais523> and the prices are very low by comparison to some other places
00:56:02 <ais523> and they have a really weird list of things that they ban (roleplaying games on shared servers, for instance)
00:56:40 <elliott> shachaf: Did you know Adam Chlipala is banned from #haskell????
00:56:43 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: is it on a shared server? or a master server?
00:56:55 <ais523> backups are also against the TOS on shared servers, for reasons I can't figure out
00:57:06 <ion> @time ubuntulog
00:57:07 <lambdabot> Local time for ubuntulog is Tue Apr 3 00:56:36 2012
00:57:37 <ion> So anyone can make lambdabot flood anyone with CTCP TIME queries? Someone should try that with one of Freenode’s ircops.
00:57:38 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know I've met Adam Chlipala IN REAL LIFE!!!!?
00:57:42 <elliott> shachaf: See, I knew Smerdyakov is banned from #haskell. But I had no idea who that was.
00:57:47 <elliott> But I knew who Adam Chlipala was!
00:57:55 <elliott> And then someone said they were him and I was like whooooaaaa but he seems so cool.
00:58:13 <elliott> (^^^ AWESOME SUPER-GREAT REFERENCE)
00:58:50 <RocketJSquirrel> ais523: Please tell me you realize I am not suggesting you actually use 365ezone X_X
00:58:50 <shachaf> 17:51 <shachaf> What's the time where you are?
00:59:01 <ais523> RocketJSquirrel: ah, OK
00:59:07 <ais523> what's your opinion of them, anyway?
00:59:26 <ion> shachaf: That was proprietary information you just leaked.
01:00:11 <elliott> Prelude Math.NumberTheory.Primes.Testing System.Random> let pick = randomRIO (1024,65536) >>= \p -> if isPrime p then return p else pick
01:01:46 <elliott> IANA's port assignments are apparently in XML form.
01:02:07 <ion> Makes sense, you can conveniently process them with XSLT.
01:02:20 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
01:02:39 <elliott> @downforeveryoneorjustme http://www.iana.org/assignments/service-names-port-numbers/service-names-port-numbers.xml
01:02:46 * lambdabot orders her trained monkeys to punch
01:03:16 <ion> @slap self
01:03:26 * lambdabot slaps lambdabot with a slab of concrete
01:03:30 * lambdabot places her fist firmly on lambdabot's jaw
01:03:38 <lambdabot> *SMACK*, *SLAM*, take that lambdabot!
01:03:41 <lambdabot> I don't perform such side effects on command!
01:03:43 <lambdabot> I'd rather not; lambdabot looks rather dangerous.
01:04:33 <elliott> elliott@solidity:~$ nc -u -l -p 8147
01:04:33 <elliott> 14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=31735&oldid=31734 5* 03Ehird 5* (+13) 10test
01:05:57 <elliott> how do you sockets in perl help thanks
01:06:01 <elliott> poe = http://poe.perl.org/
01:06:09 <ais523> hmm, not sure I've ever tried
01:07:24 <elliott> how do you sneckets in perl thenks
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01:14:22 <elliott> ais523: why does my bot not work :(
01:16:23 <shachaf> elliott: The answer is: Because it's lambdabot.
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01:24:04 <elliott> USER esolang 8 * :Esolang recent changes bot, see http://esolangs.org/
01:24:04 <elliott> PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=31744&oldid=31743 5* 03Ehird 5* (+7) 10
01:24:10 <elliott> Seriously, I honestly can't tell.
01:24:16 <elliott> Answers from someome other than shachaf please.
01:25:20 <shachaf> elliott: I don't think you can have spaces in the realname?
01:25:28 <shachaf> I might be wrong. It joined the channel, so I'm probably wrong.
01:25:38 <ais523> you can have spaces in teh realname
01:25:44 <ais523> did you get an error message back?
01:25:47 <elliott> shachaf: it wouldn't be much of a realname without
01:25:52 <elliott> ais523: no, that privmsg just gets dropped
01:25:56 <elliott> and it keeps receiving messages
01:26:07 <elliott> note that the privmsg has ansi codes in but i've piped it to cat -v and it still doesn't work
01:26:43 <shachaf> elliott: Did you try getting rid of the ANSI codes?
01:27:08 <elliott> <elliott> note that the privmsg has ansi codes in but i've piped it to cat -v and it still doesn't work
01:28:18 -!- esolang has joined.
01:28:28 <shachaf> PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=31744&oldid=31743 5* 03Ehird 5* (+7) 10
01:28:30 <esolang> 14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=31744&oldid=31743 5* 03Ehird 5* (+7) 10
01:28:42 -!- esolang has quit (Client Quit).
01:28:49 -!- esolang has joined.
01:28:55 <shachaf> elliott: Nope, your IRC isn't broken.
01:29:04 -!- esolang has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:29:37 <elliott> OK, now it's acting like it's missing the trailing newline.
01:29:41 <elliott> Except adding "; echo" doesn't help either.
01:29:54 <shachaf> elliott: Add a new line with QUIT at the end?
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01:31:08 <elliott> USER esolang 8 * :Esolang recent changes bot, see http://esolangs.org/
01:31:08 <elliott> PRIVMSG #esoteric :a privmsg
01:31:17 <elliott> PRIVMSG #esoteric :a privmsg
01:31:18 <elliott> PRIVMSG #esoteric :^C14[[^C07Esolang:Sandbox^C14]]^C4 ^C10 ^C02http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=31749&oldid=31748^C ^C5*^C ^C03Ehird^C ^C5*^C (+1) ^C10^C
01:31:24 <elliott> With two blank lines before the QUIT.
01:31:35 <elliott> I don't know why it doesn't say anything before I hit enter.
01:31:50 <shachaf> elliott: Did you try \r\n?!
01:32:19 <elliott> I know for a fact that freenode doesn't require \r.
01:36:06 <shachaf> elliott: Did you try \n\n?!
01:37:31 <shachaf> elliott: How are you sending these commands, exactly?
01:37:38 <shachaf> Are you typing them in nc in the terminal?
01:38:54 <elliott> (echo "PASS $(cat esolang-bot-password)"; echo 'NICK esolang'; echo 'USER esolang 8 * :Esolang recent changes bot, see http://esolangs.org/'; echo 'JOIN #esoteric'; echo 'PRIVMSG #esoteric :a privmsg'; while true; do nc -u -l -p 8147 | sed 's/^/PRIVMSG #esoteric :/'; echo; echo; echo 'QUIT :outta here'; done) | cat -v | nc irc.freenode.net 6667
01:41:51 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Tue Apr 3 02:41:47
01:44:35 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Mon Apr 2 18:44:04 2012
01:47:15 <shachaf> What's that while true for?
01:48:31 -!- esolang has joined.
01:48:45 <HackEgo> esolang: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
01:48:49 <HackEgo> ESOLANG: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE
01:49:55 <elliott> <shachaf> What's that while true for?
01:49:59 <elliott> It disconnects after receiving a UDP message.
01:50:02 -!- esolang has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:50:26 <shachaf> Never mind, I don't feel like debugging IRC bts.
01:55:09 <Sgeo> I want to facepalm at Conservapedia
01:55:18 <Sgeo> "The theory of an old universe is contradicted again, this time by discovery of planets that formed "at dawn of universe." [1] How many counterexamples to an Old Earth does an atheist need in order to start opening his mind?"
01:55:28 <Sgeo> The [1] links to http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2012/0330/Planets-found-at-dawn-of-universe-but-their-existence-is-a-mystery
01:55:38 <Sgeo> Do they even READ the articles, or just use the headlines?
01:55:46 <Sgeo> Because that is, admittedly, perhaps a misleading headline
01:57:50 <Sgeo> iirc CS Monitor is actually decent despite the name
01:59:31 <Sgeo> Stephen Fry would like to have a word
02:01:06 <coppro> law of wikis: every subject has exactly one wikia, one non-wikia wiki, and a wikipedia article
02:02:03 <RocketJSquirrel> FOR INSTANCE mlp.wikia.com, mylittlewiki.com, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Little_Pony_Friendship_is_Magic
02:03:17 <RocketJSquirrel> It's mylittlewiki.org , and that appears less focused on FiM (i.e. focused on terrible garbage that we should all forget ever existed)
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02:35:49 <Sgeo> Hmm, I think Creatures follows that pattern
02:35:57 <Sgeo> There was a very old wiki before the wikia
02:37:16 <Sgeo> I think it's dead now
02:39:20 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: The Christian Science Monitor, contrary to its name, is a relatively well-respected journalistic entity.
02:40:42 <pikhq> It's only incidentally related to the Church of Christ, Scientist, and that only because the founder of both believed strongly in good journalism.
02:41:51 <kmc> yeah csm is legit
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02:43:59 <elliott> aren't the christian scientists the faith healing peeps
02:44:24 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c6/Ccseal.PNG best logo imo
02:44:27 <pikhq> Yes, they are complete wakos.
02:44:43 <pikhq> It just happens that this has no impact on their newspaper.
02:45:10 <elliott> unless the subject being reported about is them, I'd wager
02:48:57 <pikhq> The church doesn't really have much influence on their writing, and their editors generally aren't Christian Scientists.
02:49:02 <RocketJSquirrel> Welp, just found the worst-spelled word in my spelling dictionary.
02:49:42 <elliott> What's the correct spelling?
02:49:46 <pikhq> It's really a damned odd thing.
02:49:55 <elliott> I've been considering switching to en-GB-x-oed.
02:50:04 <elliott> (y'all is perfectly valid en-GB-x-oed tyvm)
02:50:07 <pikhq> Purely secular reporting by a church.
02:50:14 <pikhq> elliott: "x-oed" = ?
02:51:03 <pikhq> So, the Oxford spellings.
02:51:33 <RocketJSquirrel> Presumably oed is just "every word anyone has ever written in an otherwise-English context"
02:51:56 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: en-GB-oed is en-GB using -ize suffices.
02:52:00 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: And with the OED-prefered spelling, where there are multiple choices.
02:52:07 <pikhq> e.g. -ize suffixes.
02:52:11 <elliott> For etymological and phonetic reasons.
02:52:21 <elliott> (Note that this only applies to -ize; it's still "analyse")
02:52:52 <pikhq> And it's still "programme".
02:53:10 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, but I say program anyway >_>
02:53:18 <elliott> I consider programme to refer to only the non-computer meanings.
02:53:36 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9985988/haskell-pattern-matching-disappointed
02:53:42 <pikhq> Apparently that's actually proper UK English. "program" refers to a computer program exclusively.
02:53:49 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: "[I]n mod.F. the suffix has become -iser, alike in words from Greek, as baptiser, évangéliser, organiser, and those formed after them from L., as civiliser, cicatriser, humaniser. Hence, some have used the spelling -ise in Eng., as in French, for all these words, and some prefer -ise in words formed in French or Eng. from L. elements, retaining -ize for those of Gr. composition. But the suffix itself, whatever the element to wh
02:53:49 <elliott> ich it is added, is in its origin the Gr. -ιζειν, L. -izāre; and, as the pronunciation is also with z, there is no reason why in English the special French spelling should be followed, in opposition to that which is at once etymological and phonetic. In this Dictionary the termination is uniformly written -ize. (In the Gr. -ιζ-, the i was short, so originally in L., but the double consonant z (= dz, ts) made the syllable long; when the z
02:53:50 <elliott> became a simple consonant, (-idz) became īz, whence Eng. (-aɪz).)"
02:54:00 <pikhq> Because spelling needs to be less consistent. :)
02:56:14 <elliott> <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9985988/haskell-pattern-matching-disappointed
02:56:17 <elliott> I feel the need to reiterate:
02:56:36 <pikhq> "I typed in wrong code and the compiler errored. HASKELL SUCKS"
02:59:51 <Sgeo> Well, the code makes sense in other languages, is I think the point
03:00:34 <elliott> kmc: Tell me not to link that question in #haskell.
03:00:41 <elliott> I'm so tempted. But then #haskell might get even worse.
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03:04:52 <shachaf> elliott: I think that is just a troll post.
03:05:41 <elliott> shachaf: I know it is. I'm not actually annoyed.
03:06:05 <elliott> It's therapeutic to call people fucking morons. You should try it sometime.
03:06:19 <shachaf> O. I thought that you were actually annoyed.
03:06:27 <shachaf> elliott: I've never done it in my life.
03:06:53 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9985987/t-or-f-tcp-socket-method-is-unsuitable-for-mobile-devices
03:07:32 <shachaf> There should be a game where a bunch of people pretend to be zzo38 and they get points based on how realistic they are.
03:07:33 <elliott> shachaf: O, is that so. OK.
03:07:37 <shachaf> You could call it a ZZORPG.
03:07:49 <pikhq_> I'm afraid zzoing is best left to zzo38. At least, I think so.
03:08:18 <elliott> In Astrolog, I see the ecliptic declension is measured in radians. In my opinion, they should have it be any system of measurement, such as SI, metric, or even something you made up yourself, not just radians.
03:08:48 * elliott likes to think he's quite good at this.
03:09:18 <elliott> `pastlog <zzo38.*Astrolog is
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03:10:42 <shachaf> elliott: Being on-topic is part of the point.
03:10:49 <elliott> Cnay ou try to make a language like Haskell but with many thing different, such as, more notation, macros (like Template Haskell but different), no layout, and extensible data?
03:10:54 <shachaf> (Admittedly you don't *always* want to be on-topic.)
03:10:56 <elliott> Can you try to make a language like Haskell but with many thing different, such as, more notation, macros (like Template Haskell but different), no layout, and extensible data?
03:12:05 <HackEgo> 139) <zzo38> Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple
03:12:22 <elliott> That's my favourite version of that quote.
03:15:30 <shachaf> I think I just realized the answer to my own question.
03:15:35 <shachaf> The only log zzo38 reads is...
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03:17:57 <HackEgo> emcc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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03:21:49 <kmc> fuck, i updated chromium using its internal thingy, and now it's being laggy and dumb
03:22:06 <kmc> browsers have so much code churn that every update fixes some bugs and introduces new ones
03:22:13 <kmc> so if you are happy with your current situation, don't upgrade ;P
03:25:31 <elliott> kmc: "Updated Chromium"? It does that automatically. Oh, Chromium, not Chrome.
03:25:38 <elliott> Does Chromium have an internal update thing? I don't think so.
03:28:02 <kmc> in the menu
03:28:03 <kmc> there's only one
03:28:16 <elliott> Also, you could always just tell your distro to reinstall the package :P
03:28:17 <kmc> "update chromium" or some shit
03:28:19 <kmc> it showed up
03:28:22 <kmc> yeah maybe i'll do that
03:28:33 <kmc> it showed up
03:28:37 <kmc> when i had an update ;P
03:28:41 * elliott is on 18.0.1025.142, fwiw.
03:28:49 <kmc> as a user i feel like I'm getting screwed by some dick-measuring contest between google and mozilla
03:28:49 <elliott> Maybe Arch disable the menu item or something.
03:28:59 <kmc> i wish they would stop adding shiny for a while, maybe fix some bugs
03:29:03 <elliott> Chrome's versioning scheme is reasonable.
03:29:08 <kmc> maybe even (gasp!) maintain a stable tree that gets bugfixes
03:29:17 <elliott> kmc: Erm, Chrome does that.
03:29:20 <elliott> That's what all the channels are about.
03:29:30 <elliott> kmc: Your distro might be providing you the dev channel.
03:29:35 <elliott> Mine does that, because ARCH BLEEDING EDGE FOREVER.
03:29:55 <coppro> I just had either the best or worst idea ever
03:29:55 <elliott> There's actually stable, beta, dev, canary channels or something like that, and stable is the Chrome everyone on Windows/OS X gets unless they do something special.
03:30:12 * pikhq_ mutters at presentationing
03:30:17 <elliott> Chrome's versioning scheme works because it doesn't really have "releases", on Windows and OS X it literally just updates silently, you never even see the version unless you look for it... with Firefox they still make a big deal out of every release
03:30:23 <elliott> which is just ridiculous with the kind of schedule they go at now
03:30:46 <kmc> so the stable channel actually gets new bugfixes without pulling every new feature?
03:30:56 <kmc> or is it just an older version on the same linear sequence
03:31:26 <elliott> kmc: Well, it gets bugfixes. Then it gets the new features periodically.
03:31:31 <coppro> so one of the problems with voice recognition is that it is really difficult to decontextualize symbols
03:31:35 <elliott> It's not just "50 revisions ago", no.
03:31:50 <elliott> It's basically Debian testing vs. Debian unstable vs. Debian experimental.
03:31:54 <coppro> the solution is to have verbal escapes
03:32:05 <coppro> "join <click>pound esoteric"
03:32:16 <elliott> hey, what's a good Unicode character to use to separate lines in a terminal in a linear setting?
03:32:43 <kmc> there's a symbol for "carriage return" no?
03:33:36 <elliott> PFSC updated several times and nobody told me :(
03:33:43 <elliott> but wouldn't LF be more appropriate?
03:34:04 <coppro> you all know it to be true
03:34:29 <elliott> Would a pilcrow be inappropriate? That thing is a little small.
03:34:48 <coppro> pilcrow would be inappropriate
03:35:28 <coppro> I would go with U+244A: ⑊
03:35:42 <elliott> coppro: oh, that's a good one
03:35:47 <elliott> I went with RIGHT ARROW in the end
03:35:53 <elliott> since it was describing a result
03:36:06 <elliott> oh, that's OCR DOUBLE BACKSLASH
03:36:46 <coppro> elliott: do you know of Fake Unicode Consortium?
03:38:26 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Tue Apr 3 04:38:23
03:38:33 <elliott> Wait, why didn't that work?
03:38:37 <elliott> What does lambdabot *do* to typo-correct?
03:39:13 <lambdabot> Local time for ion is Tue Apr 3 06:38:40 2012
03:39:15 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Ohh, right.
03:39:28 <lambdabot> Local time for pikhq_ is Mon Apr 2 21:38:55 2012
03:39:31 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ bf do ft id pl rc thx time v wn
03:39:46 <ion> elliott: A crapload of homework to finish. It looks like i won’t make the deadline, though.
03:40:10 <ion> So might as well go to sleep. :-P Except that i’ve taken some caffeine.
03:42:30 <elliott> I hope time is going backwards now.
03:42:33 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Tue Apr 3 04:12:03
03:43:13 <elliott> I just spun the clock backwards.
03:44:31 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Mon Apr 2 20:43:58 2012
03:44:51 <lambdabot> Local time for monqy is Mon Apr 3 04:24:09 2012
03:44:58 <elliott> Gosh. Time goes fast in America.
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03:46:43 <lambdabot> Global time for monqy is Sat Apr 47 11:11:666 2012
03:47:16 <pikhq_> Shame it won't hand you Discordian dates.
03:47:35 <pikhq_> Today is Boomtime, the 19th day of Discord in the YOLD 3178
03:52:29 <elliott> pikhq_: It will if your client does.
03:53:17 <pikhq_> Hmm. Perhaps I should run irssi under sdate, then.
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03:55:21 <pikhq_> Of course, arguably Eternal September dates should be fixed...
03:55:28 <pikhq_> AOL stopped providing Usenet.
03:55:30 <ion> elliott: ddate
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03:56:44 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Tue Apr 3 04:56:40
03:56:53 <elliott> I'm running it under sdate.
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03:57:18 <ion> elliott: You should ask for your money back.
03:57:47 <ion> elly: You should be named ellyott.
03:58:09 <quintopia> freenode took down their apr fools privacy policy page and i never got a chance to read it. can anyone summarize?
03:58:39 <elliott> It was freenode, and it was an April Fools joke, so the chances of it being funny or worth your time are 0.
03:59:52 <pikhq_> I was too busy procrastinating.
04:00:05 <pikhq_> Also cmakoing, but mostly procrastinating.
04:00:49 <calamari> I was too busy derpying flockdraw
04:01:44 <elliott> I... spent a considerable portion of April 1st trying to work around IE8 being a terrible piece of shit.
04:02:38 <calamari> my grandma was still using ie8.. got her moved over to firefox today
04:02:49 <kmc> ddate is for lovers
04:03:21 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Guess I'll have to block oerjan.
04:04:20 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I could block oerjan for 1 second, you know.
04:07:12 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Oran This is the bestest article ever
04:09:17 <RocketJSquirrel> I like how you feel the need to correct your punctuation in a sentence in which you used the word "bestest".
04:09:47 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: en-GB-oed-x-elliott
04:09:57 <elliott> Anyway, the missing dot changes the tone.
04:13:59 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy shachaf UPDATE. ALSO ALBUM
04:14:13 <Sgeo> (shachef automatically removed from update list)
04:17:25 <elliott> Nobody gets removed from the update list.
04:18:34 <Sgeo> shachaf didn't really want to be on i
04:19:45 <elliott> No. Everybody wants to be on the update list.
04:19:48 <elliott> Cease and desist immediately.
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04:25:10 <elliott> shachaf is happy to be on the list.
04:25:44 <shachaf> I'm happy to be off the update list.
04:26:10 <shachaf> I'm also happy for the release of the new albumen.
04:29:38 <elliott> You're happy to be on the update list.
04:29:41 <elliott> monqy: Correct shachaf and Sgeo.
04:30:23 <shachaf> monqy: Do you want to be on the update list?
04:33:28 <elliott> TELL ME TO GO TO SLEEP THAnks
04:36:45 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Tue Apr 3 05:36:41
04:37:17 <shachaf> elliott: GO TO SLEEP TAnks
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04:50:19 <monqy> shachaf: you want to be on the update list
04:50:24 <monqy> Sgeo: shachaf wants to be on the update list
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05:30:42 <ais523> itidus21: you might want to try again, HackEgo sometimes screws up the first itme
05:31:03 <itidus21> ok but i don't know what i am looking for
05:31:37 <HackEgo> 2011-10-31.txt:01:52:13: <zzo38> I figured out how to use Astrolog to compute the date of Chinese New Year.
05:39:15 <shachaf> monqy: what if i wan't to be be on the update list
05:39:22 <shachaf> "wan't" stands for "want not", by the way.
05:41:09 <monqy> but you don't wan't
05:41:22 <shachaf> monqy: what if i dont wan't
05:41:44 <monqy> you don't dont wan't
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06:17:39 <quintopia> 13:30 * elliott wants to see the programs that generated http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ais523_anticipation.bfjoust and http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/quintopia_space_elevator.bfjoust
06:18:47 <quintopia> elliott: the standard "defend" code is generated by a very very short matlab program. all the structure and attacky stuff was handcoded.
06:27:53 <olsner> ... generated by matlab
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08:49:06 <Taneb> This David.werecatt seems...
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08:53:45 <Taneb> Also, if we're going to change the featured language every 2 weeks, we're a day late
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09:44:25 <shachaf> http://i.imgur.com/ZUTx3.png
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10:44:09 <hagb4rd> hi! in know it's kind of out of topic, but maybe you guys can help.. i'm looking for some complete(?) ready-to-go wrapping code to use for interop-operations with c# on the windows API. (because i'm tired of looking up the code for every single function and/or struct as listed on pinvoke.net for example). would you recommend/suggest a source where i could find such code?
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11:12:25 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 19 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
11:15:48 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, why are you in America?
11:16:53 <Taneb> Because I am trapped in elliott's basement
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11:18:50 <Phantom_Hoover> And then broke into the basement only to discover it's locked?
11:21:14 <Phantom_Hoover> (That's the dun-dun-dun from The Eve of the War from Jeff Wayne's Musical Version of The War of the Worlds, not the normal dun-dun-dun.)
11:21:54 <Taneb> I think I have that on LP
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11:46:37 <NSQX> If anyone unblocks me I will work on UniCode, but unfortunately, nobody will.
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12:42:14 <lambdabot> Local time for elly is Tue Apr 3 08:41:32 2012
12:42:25 <lambdabot> Local time for NSQX is Tue Apr 03 20:41:53 2012
12:43:36 <NSQX> Where are the administrators anyway?
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12:56:35 <Sgeo> NSQX, you ... do know why you're blocked, right?
12:56:47 <Sgeo> And at any rate, your block is of finite duration.
12:56:59 <Sgeo> Hi Taneb. Did you see the update and the album?
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12:57:58 <NSQX> I'm only waiting for the time when I can ask an administrator to unblock me.
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15:10:37 <elliott> This document explicitly and emphatically, yet very humbly, requests
15:10:37 <elliott> IANA to not create an empty registry for the Null Packet.
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15:27:20 <ion> Meanwhile in April in Finland http://dl.dropbox.com/u/119475/IMG_20120403_074804.jpg
15:41:36 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9995470/jquery-vs-javascript
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16:14:09 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: You'd be shocked how commonly that question comes up X_X
16:14:33 <RocketJSquirrel> Note how #jquery has hundreds more members than ##javascript
16:16:05 * elliott remembers telling RocketJSquirrel about jQuery once.
16:19:57 <oerjan> eek something like 39.4 degrees celsius fever
16:20:09 <oerjan> IT WAS NICE TO KNOW YOU ALL. WELL, MOST OF YOU.
16:21:08 <fizzie> 39.4 degrees F would be an even more alarming temperature, possibly.
16:23:34 <ion> YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAH
16:23:47 <RocketJSquirrel> Of course, it takes elliott days to raise the shades to his eyes with that little kinetic energy.
16:24:02 <pikhq_> RocketJSquirrel: 39.4K is at least low enough that you might be cryonically preserved.
16:24:22 <pikhq_> So, with future tech you may yet live.
16:25:15 <elliott> <RocketJSquirrel> Of course, it takes elliott days to raise the shades to his eyes with that little kinetic energy.
16:25:16 <pikhq_> Either you've got knowledge I don't, or you meant to say "I might be immortal"
16:25:23 <elliott> OK but I'm also hot. Cool and hot.
16:25:35 <pikhq_> Oh, wait. 39.4K and moving?
16:25:48 <ion> elliott is like some shit?
16:25:55 <elliott> I strongly resemble some shit.
16:26:01 <pikhq_> Or incredible. Typing whilst very dead.
16:26:38 <elliott> BTW, I lied, I'm not actually at 39.4K, I'm at absolute zero. My entire body works through incredibly improbable quantum effects.
16:27:26 <elliott> UNFORTUNATELY my body also decays through those same effects.
16:29:03 * oerjan recalls david niven's liquid helium creatures
16:30:02 * oerjan blames it on his fried brain
16:30:20 <elliott> Larry, David, what's the difference.
16:31:12 <pikhq_> Larry Niven is well-known (... among scifi fans). David Niven is not.
16:31:30 <elliott> James David Graham Niven (1 March 1910 – 29 July 1983),[1][2] was a British actor and novelist, best known for his roles as Phileas Fogg in Around the World in 80 Days and Sir Charles Lytton, a.k.a. "the Phantom", in The Pink Panther. He was awarded the 1958 Academy Award for Best Actor in Separate Tables.
16:31:41 <elliott> Sounds more well-known than Larry Niven to me!
16:31:41 <pikhq_> oerjan: Outsiders, I assume?
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16:34:35 <elliott> (Article at [[David Niven]] so presumably that's his common name)
16:36:52 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: Our changesbot inexplicably doesn't work, despite producing the correct output when not piped into netcat.
16:37:09 <elliott> And because I was putting a lot of es on the page so I did it on purpose ergo fuck you.
16:37:50 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I'll probably try and get it working today.
16:37:54 <elliott> But it's a reaaaally weird bug.
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17:11:33 <ion> https://twitter.com/#!/DonaldGlover/statuses/29592754602381313
18:09:35 <elliott> @tell ais523 I like how everyone completely ignored your coming-clean post on rgrn.
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18:46:31 <nortti> perfect! My HD broke today
18:47:39 <elliott> What a coincidence! Mine didn't!
18:51:31 <ion> That’s their other main function.
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18:52:47 <nortti> so tomorrow I am going to set up my Thinkpad t20 with 700MHz Pentium III, 64MB of RAM and 30GB HD that is missing the screen as my main computer
18:53:27 <elliott> But what type is the RAM?!
18:56:57 <olsner> I wonder what elliott will do with this information
18:59:39 <elliott> hello, I have next problem I want to use polymorphic data-type that should have two operations (+) and *const
18:59:41 <elliott> so in that type I want to use Num, Vector Num, and maybe types or so
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19:00:14 <HackEgo> 804) <olsner> the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM <olsner> before that we used SRAM where everything was preallocated in the factory <fizzie> olsner: So what's this SDRAM then? <olsner> fizzie: synchronized, it's for multithreading
19:02:12 <nortti> elliott: why do you want to build a clone? it also has two windows licenes taped to it (98, XP Pro) and nothing to keep HD inside
19:02:43 <olsner> PC100 SDRAM allows up to 100 PCs (processing contexts, usually called threads nowadays) per memory module
19:03:49 <nortti> olsner: what about DDR RAM?
19:04:29 <elliott> nortti: Can you tell me the screen resolution? Thx
19:05:45 <nortti> elliott: using a external monitor on 1024x768
19:08:20 <nortti> but why do you really want this information?
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19:09:23 <elliott> That's classified. Well, it's not, but I'd probably get arrested if I told you.
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19:10:44 <elliott> shachaf: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/rrijm/could_somebody_explain_the_concept_behind_storing/
19:13:40 <shachaf> elliott: blubbar raises some good, thought-provoking questions.
19:14:10 <shachaf> Many a sage has wondered "Why is there in expression and nothing done with it? The $ should curry i guess, but why is this not given a name? (And why isn't it lost?)"
19:14:30 <shachaf> "How the hell is this pure?" is one of the great unsolved problems of our time.
19:14:57 <olsner> nortti: double data rate, it allows two threads to use memory at the same time
19:15:09 <olsner> theoretically doubling bandwidth, but latency increases a bit when switching contexts
19:15:11 <shachaf> And of course "Is there \"State in Haskell for retards?\"" is a question that any child could understand, but few could answer.
19:15:14 <nortti> first time my HD broke I lost almost all of the data, second time I lost few important files and this time I only lost two hour worth of irc logs.
19:22:08 <nortti> "There's really only so many basic stories that can exist. The main character is trying to get somewhere (the Odyssey), get something (the legend of the Golden Fleece), win someone's heart (the Iliad), get revenge (Cain and Abel) or save the world ( Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure)."
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19:27:32 <shachaf> elliott: Just solving all those problems quickly, eh?
19:27:39 <shachaf> Movin' along at a vector's pace.
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19:39:03 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: Ah, yes, early Spock/Kirk slash.
19:40:40 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, can't say I've read any. Just random snarking.
19:40:55 <elliott> Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.
19:41:41 <pikhq> Besides, not exactly the target audience for most slash fic. They kinda target women who like hot man-sex. :P
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19:43:55 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:44:16 <ais523> elliott: I don't like it so much
19:44:19 <ais523> perhaps they'll respond to it later
19:44:26 <ais523> or perhaps they're trying to think up an appropriate response
19:44:37 <ais523> note that it wasn't /completely/ ignored, I've had at least one private response
19:44:40 <ais523> but it was private for a reason, so…
19:45:00 <elliott> ais523: Was it a DevTeam member yelling at you?
19:45:05 <elliott> If you whisper, the secret is safe.
19:45:10 <elliott> ais523: Was it a DevTeam member not yelling at you?
19:45:18 <ais523> no, it wasn't a devteam member at all
19:45:38 <elliott> Was it a non-DevTeam member yelling at you?
19:45:59 <elliott> olsner: The NetHack "developer" team.
19:46:00 <ais523> olsner: the group of people who are theoretically supposed to be developing NetHack
19:46:35 <elliott> I will take ais523's silence... as affirmation!
19:49:10 <RocketJSquirrel> <pikhq> Besides, not exactly the target audience for most slash fic. They kinda target women who like hot man-sex.
19:49:37 <pikhq> RocketJSquirrel: Not really.
19:51:18 <elliott> augur, Hot Man Sex Consultant
19:51:33 <elliott> (More like Hot Man Sex-Consultant amiright??? lololololol xkcd)
19:51:37 <pikhq> Also, augur isn't here ATM.
19:51:38 <olsner> or slash fix target audience consultant
19:53:10 <olsner> there's a clop (or clop-something? don't remember the name) reddit, it was intriguing
19:54:00 <RocketJSquirrel> OH BIG MACINTOSH THEY SURE CALL YOU "BIG MACINTOSH" FOR A REASON HA HA HA
19:58:42 <pikhq> I was raised on the Internet; it is hard to shock me anymore.
19:58:46 <pikhq> I have seen... Things.
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20:30:11 <elliott> "The hypothetical person lacking a sense of humour would likely find the behaviour induced by humour to be inexplicable, strange, or even irrational." -- Wikipedia, [[humour]]
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20:31:09 <olsner> it's probably strange, inexplicable and irrational enough even if you know what's going on
20:33:05 <ais523> there's a short story by Asimov where someone asks Multivac for the reason humour exists
20:34:20 <pikhq> That was a good story.
20:47:25 -!- RocketJSquirrel has set topic: For Sale: Infinite Tape, Never Used | Richard Feynman was also here | Zombie Feynman's Trivial Theorem: It's trivial! It's trivial! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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21:24:53 <ais523> elliott: gah, see recent edits to [[Entropy]]
21:24:55 <ais523> my brain is melting slightly
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21:36:05 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:45:40 <lambdabot> Local time for Phantom_Hoover is Tue Apr 3 21:42:11
21:46:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I haven't changed the time zone on my laptop, unsurprisingly.
21:47:12 <elliott> Sure thing, Phantom "actually in Gettysburg St., America, Scotland" Hoover.
21:54:51 <shachaf> elliott: "more of" is stretching it.
21:56:39 <shachaf> elliott "yields falsehood when quoted and placed as his own middle name" elliott
21:57:19 <shachaf> elliott "i disagree" elliott
21:58:31 <ais523> shachaf: so elliott "elliott" elliott is a liar?
21:58:50 <elliott> ais523: no, elliott "yields falsehood when quoted and placed as his own middle name" elliott is
21:59:20 <ais523> but no, that's referring to the wrong thing there
21:59:38 <ais523> this is a quine because the bits inside the parens are used to generate the bits outside the parens
21:59:49 <ais523> whereas that's closer to the example shachaf gave
21:59:56 <shachaf> > text$ap(++)show"text$ap(++)show"
21:59:59 <ais523> it generates extra elliotts, rather than quining
22:00:11 <ais523> > text$ap(++)show"elliott"
22:00:26 <shachaf> Did I accidentally generate an extra elliott. :-(
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22:10:22 <oerjan> i'm not sure, but i'm checking my fever again
22:10:46 <Phantom_Hoover> "ns151 delivers a righteous speech directed against the anti-American rhetoric on Reddit." (r/bestof)
22:12:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: tl;dr "OK, our country is really terrible and shitty, but we're not North Korea, also if any other country had our resources they'd be literally Satan too, so there, and also people who want to leave are cowards and fuck them".
22:12:33 <elliott> (Last part only barely paraphrased: "And to the Americans who come on here and whine about how much they want to leave and go to live in places they have never even visited: fuck you. Not in a "love America or get the fuck out" kind of way, but because you are an embarrassment to everything this country was founded on 230 years ago. You'd rather just pack up and leave than stay and fight for what you believe in.")
22:15:12 <elliott> (Also "rhetoric", as if reddit is home to anything that could be non-sarcastically described as rhetoric.)
22:17:21 <oerjan> hm it's slightly up to 39.6, but i'm feeling _less_ shitty
22:17:35 -!- oerjan has set topic: For Sale: Infinite Tape, Never Used | Richard Feynman was also here | Zombie oerjan's Trivial Theorem: It's trivial! It's trivial! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:18:35 <ais523> oerjan: I hope you recover soon
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22:19:08 <oerjan> i hope so too, i'm worried about not getting food bought for the holidays
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22:19:53 <elliott> wtf, since when are we nice to suffering people in here!
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22:20:11 <elliott> oerjan: i hope you recover slowly. (see, that's a half-way point!)
22:20:46 <ais523> elliott: we were pretty nice to you when you were suffering
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22:21:45 <elliott> ais523: no, that was feigned to get on my good side, because you don't want to be the ones suffering when i rise to president of the world and my new world order begins
22:21:58 <elliott> at least, everyone else's was. my condolences if you had to settle for sincerity :P
22:22:18 <ais523> elliott: would you believe /me/ to be insincere about something like that?
22:22:22 <ais523> remember that I'm lawful good ;)
22:22:51 <ais523> lawful good people are famously obnoxious
22:23:14 <elliott> Did anyone ever work out what I am?
22:23:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving").
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22:24:00 <elliott> I just checked, I'm not chaotic.
22:24:21 <elliott> I'm not original-meaning-of-chaotic.
22:24:30 <elliott> I might be new-meaning-of-chaotic.
22:24:41 <elliott> Neutral seems more likely to me, though.
22:31:52 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: I don't see how I'm neutral on the good/evil alignment...
22:32:05 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/rm5o4/does_hard_scifi_even_exist_in_hollywood/
22:32:20 <Phantom_Hoover> "I'm looking for a film that displays at least a hint of scientific accuracy."
22:33:19 <elliott> What, were you going to say that too?
22:33:54 <RocketJSquirrel> Until it goes all loopy, 2001: A Space Odyssey is reasonably hard. Then it's just high.
22:35:16 <RocketJSquirrel> The fact that it was on MST3K tells you how well hard sci-fi does.
22:35:57 <elliott> Frankly hard sci-fi with the explicit intention of being hard tends to be pretty terrible.
22:36:27 <RocketJSquirrel> Mainly because the real universe is pretty fucking depressing ^^
22:36:39 <elliott> "However, because Virgil was not designed to jettison undamaged compartments, the plan requires someone to deactivate a safety switch in Virgil that is located in an area exposed to the extreme temperatures of the core. Brazzelton volunteers and successfully deactivates the switch, dying shortly afterwards."
22:36:54 <elliott> I... don't think the writers fully understood how hot the Earth's core is?
22:37:19 <elliott> "Oh, sure, I'll sacrifice mysAAAAAAAAAAERIOHGl'f'"
22:37:21 <RocketJSquirrel> elliott: He flips the switch during the microsecond before he's fully evaporated.
22:37:34 <Phantom_Hoover> "Wouldn't it be cool if..." can be good, sometimes, but invariably scrimp on the non-central science involved (cf. Tau Zero), and "I WILL WRITE HARD SCI-FI" invariably has a terrible plot and a boring setting.
22:37:56 <RocketJSquirrel> There's got to be at least a few that are hard-modulo-FTL.
22:38:09 <RocketJSquirrel> Which is pretty much the minimum acceptable to avoid being depressing as fuck.
22:38:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean, interesting hard sci-fi is interesting because it's about the effects of technology on people, society, etc.
22:38:39 <ais523> hmm, asimov's books tend to avoid contradictions with existing science, they just invent new bits of science too
22:38:43 <elliott> But the kind of people who care the sci-fi is AS HARD AS POSSIBLE tend to consider writing stories about things like "people" beneath them.
22:38:43 <Phantom_Hoover> "Wouldn't it be cool if..." can be good, sometimes, but invariably scrimp on the non-central science involved (cf. Tau Zero), and "I WILL WRITE HARD SCI-FI" invariably has a terrible plot and a boring setting.?
22:39:06 <elliott> "Wouldn't it be cool if..." can be good, sometimes, but invariably scrimp on the non-central science involved (cf. Tau Zero), and "I WILL WRITE HARD SCI-FI" invariably has a terrible plot and a boring setting.?!
22:39:13 <RocketJSquirrel> "Wouldn't it be cool if..." can be good, sometimes, but invariably scrimp on the non-central science involved (cf. Tau Zero), and "I WILL WRITE HARD SCI-FI" invariably has a terrible plot and a boring setting.?!‽
22:39:20 <elliott> (Also, I thought Tau Zero was good? I'ven't read it.)
22:39:27 <HackEgo> 587) <Phantom_Hoover> You mean it'd be Tau Zero but without the spaceship?
22:39:32 <ais523> things like "real-world science exists and is not contradicted, but we also have telepathy and we can do ftl travel using hyperspace"
22:40:06 <elliott> ais523: Pretty sure hyperspace requires a huge amount of glue code to be consistent with existing physics...
22:40:32 <ais523> elliott: well, it's a plot point that nobody actually understands it, the first hyperspace engine was created by an insane robot
22:40:38 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> (Also, I thought Tau Zero was good? I'ven't read it.)
22:40:41 <elliott> Ohh, right, Tau Zero has a terrible ending.
22:41:01 <elliott> (I thought it just did took obvious super-depressing route.)
22:41:14 <Phantom_Hoover> It is; I just doubt very much that the Leonora was feasible at the time.
22:41:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't remember when Bussard ramjets were discredited.
22:41:48 <elliott> "The universe collapses into a cosmic egg (which the starship survives because there is still enough uncondensed hydrogen for maneuvering, outside the monobloc)"
22:41:55 <elliott> I like the part where they survive a Big Bang.
22:42:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet suggests they're not totally.
22:42:23 <pikhq> That sounds positively Adams-like.
22:42:39 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: They're just not as good as they were thought to be.
22:42:47 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TauZero(Anderson).jpg I am not exactly convinced this cover means something.
22:43:17 <pikhq> (courtesy of the interstellar medium being less dense than we thought)
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22:44:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: also should I watch Primer.
22:44:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Also Tau Zero has a tonne of handwaving with "magnetohydrodynamic fields" which are real but I suspect don't do half the things they're portrayed to.
22:44:47 <elliott> I already more-or-less know the plot.
22:44:56 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, Primer has a bad plot or something apparently?
22:45:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Are you sure you didn't just get that from the reddit post?
22:53:27 <RocketJSquirrel> Now, let us analyze the position of My Little Pony on the scale of "hard" or "soft" AI, and see which problems can be rectified to harden it.
22:53:53 <elliott> /ignore RocketJSquirrel*!*@* all
22:55:20 <RocketJSquirrel> CLEARLY THAT MISTAKE IS WHY ELLIOTT IS IGNORING ME SO I WILL GO ON
22:55:45 <RocketJSquirrel> Problem #1: Pegasi are a highly unlikely modification to the pony bauplan (and we haven't even mentioned unicorns yet!)
22:56:03 <elliott> I was under the impression you had a channel for this.
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22:57:02 <RocketJSquirrel> Indeed I do, but I'm not /harassing/ people in there, so it's no fun.
22:57:56 <Patashu> my little pony is the hardest sci-fi
22:58:44 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: I've become accustomed to buying dinner to go and dividing it into two meals.
22:58:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a very strong compulsion to finish meals and I don't think I've finished either of the ones I've had here.
22:59:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Have you SUPERSISED any yet?
22:59:20 <RocketJSquirrel> I have a friend who's "adapted" by eating only one meal per day.
22:59:23 <elliott> OK, "supersised" looks ridiculous.
22:59:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm told my grandfather once tried to make a scale model of this.
23:00:12 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: It took me a minute to realise that was actually incorrect >_>
23:01:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Doesn't it... upset you a bit to be on such a gigantic island?
23:01:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean, America is pretty terrifying!
23:01:23 <RocketJSquirrel> e.g. this is a very superse meal from McDonalds, I think I'll die of a stroke now.
23:01:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Um what is the difference except SISE
23:01:38 <elliott> Continent am just very big island.
23:01:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Also they make up for it by thinking buildings made a century ago are old.
23:02:12 <RocketJSquirrel> Phantom_Hoover: But we do by having air conditioning in every building that actually gets lived in, thanks to demolishing any building over a century old :)
23:02:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Joke's on you, the UK climate is so stable that air conditioning is rarely needed.
23:03:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what am the weather like there.
23:03:37 -!- augur has joined.
23:03:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Hot, but not any more than Edinburgh a little further into summer.
23:04:44 <RocketJSquirrel> It's nice to live in a place where the weather is always miserable.
23:05:08 <Phantom_Hoover> It stays hot for longer, though; the evenings aren't as pronounced.
23:05:08 <Phantom_Hoover> (Fun fact: in midwinter, the sun at midday in Edinburgh is 8° from the horizon.)
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23:05:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That fact isn't... fun?
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23:07:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What time is it in... "America".
23:07:32 <Phantom_Hoover> RocketJSquirrel, I prefer to say that the weather is always comfortable, because it... is.
23:07:53 <elliott> (Phantom_Hoover constantly wears jumpers.)
23:08:25 <lambdabot> Local time for Phantom_Hoover is Tue Apr 3 23:04:55
23:08:30 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 00:08:25
23:08:30 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 00:08:25
23:08:30 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 00:08:25
23:08:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, so even if it gets hot I can take it off and walking is still comfortable (although as is readily apparent from going through America for any length of time, you can't walk anywhere there anyway).
23:08:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Dude, your time is wrong even for the other place you're in.
23:08:52 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 00:08:47
23:09:18 <elliott> It's an hour and 5 minutes.
23:09:48 <elliott> 19:09. Is it really only 19:09 there Phantom_Hoover? It's night time!
23:09:58 <elliott> (I am honestly not faking my disbelief, countries are weird and timezones are weird.)
23:11:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Are the trains really as bad as they say?
23:11:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I... don't think they have trains in America for commuter use.
23:11:57 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Wed Apr 4 00:11:52
23:12:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Although dude, who uses trains in the UK except for long-range travel through the UK?
23:12:35 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: What about all those trains in the US?
23:12:38 <elliott> I mean, we don't have a car.
23:12:41 <Phantom_Hoover> (Yesyesyes Gregor, I know long-range in the UK is nonexistent in the US.)
23:13:03 <shachaf> elliott: "we" being "the UK"?
23:13:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, what about ``am'' ''trek''?
23:14:05 <Phantom_Hoover> But um I guess you must have completely different travel needs to me.
23:14:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not saying I use trains in place of walking?
23:14:44 <Phantom_Hoover> The trips to Ireland more or less require taking a car over a ferry.
23:14:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But, I mean, trains are way nicer than buses.
23:15:01 <shachaf> Speaking of ferries, WA has ferries.
23:15:05 <elliott> (But not long distances, just longer.)
23:15:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And yes but who goes to Ireland?
23:15:25 <elliott> And, mm... not really long-range.
23:15:35 <elliott> If I wanted to go to Newcastle, the nearest city, I'd use a trainular device.
23:16:04 <elliott> That's 22.6 miles, apparently.
23:17:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The part of the US you're in looks boring.
23:17:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm going to Annapolis later? It has that crazy bridge that was on Cracked a while ago.
23:17:53 <elliott> I like how Wyoming is rectangular.
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23:18:53 <elliott> RocketJSquirrel: What's the best US state?
23:19:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Whoa, what the fuck? I didn't know the Americas joined up like *that*.
23:20:03 <elliott> My understanding of geography is... woefully poor.
23:20:14 <elliott> Like, Panama is all sideways and shit.
23:20:29 <elliott> I thought they were more like, above-below.
23:20:58 <elliott> North America is a really ugly shape, mind you.
23:22:52 <elliott> Oregon's pretty, isn't it? I don't really know.
23:22:53 <kmc> hi shachaf
23:23:04 <kmc> UK has tons of commuter trains
23:23:08 <kmc> and several major transit systems
23:23:16 <kmc> so that's "who uses trains in the UK except for long-range travel"
23:23:24 <elliott> You realise Phantom_Hoover is Scottish, right?
23:23:47 <Phantom_Hoover> There are the trams but... the less said about the trams, the better.
23:23:49 <kmc> also major US cities do have commuter rail networks
23:24:37 <kmc> NYC, Chicago, Boston, Philly, LA, SF, Baltimore/DC, Miami, etc.
23:24:45 <kmc> in roughly decreasing order of ridership
23:24:51 <RocketJSquirrel> <elliott> Oregon's pretty, isn't it? I don't really know. // The parts of Oregon anybody knows about are lush and green.
23:24:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover is in Penicillin.
23:25:07 <kmc> they tend to be shitty compared to European or Asian systems, but they do run and lots of people us them
23:25:07 <RocketJSquirrel> The vast majority is just barely on the tundra side of being called a "desert"
23:25:48 <elliott> I get the feeling kmc Knows About Trains.
23:25:53 <kmc> "About one in every three users of mass transit in the United States and two-thirds of the nation's rail riders live in New York and its suburbs."
23:26:06 <Phantom_Hoover> That's one of the Weird Things in America, the scrubland is pretty different.
23:26:15 <elliott> Moer like New Reallyboringstate.
23:26:41 <elliott> *More. That was unintentional. :/
23:27:38 <Phantom_Hoover> The disparate space sim enthusiasts are going to be divided further by a game made by *Notch*.
23:28:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Seamlessly landing on planets." Sorry I am SOLD.
23:28:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Which will inevitably be a disappointment, but may get far enough developed that it sucks interest into Notch's shitty MMO design.
23:28:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes exactly.
23:28:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That game isn't ever going to exist.
23:28:55 <elliott> This one looks like it might.
23:29:35 <shachaf> elliott: I've been to Oregon!
23:29:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Notch's personality cult will see that no constructive criticism can be made and it'll be a technical shambles (we've all seen what he thinks constitutes procedural generation, for one thing).
23:29:50 <shachaf> I don't recommend Medford, OR.
23:29:59 <shachaf> If you're going to visit Oregon, don't go to Medford.
23:30:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Also I have a suspicion this'll be an EVE-style "right click to fight ship" deal.
23:31:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think Notch is inherently incompetent, he just mismanaged Minecraft.
23:31:40 <shachaf> In fact, I went from WA to CA through OR.
23:31:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, and who wrote the decent one in the first place?
23:31:57 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, sure, but planetary terrain gen is more demanding than MC's.
23:32:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's also not constrained to 1x1x1 m blocks.
23:32:49 <Phantom_Hoover> And I'm not saying he's incompetent, I just don't think he's a good maker of games; MC's great success is its core idea, and not a great deal more.
23:33:48 <kmc> is there anything new about that core idea/
23:33:50 <elliott> I'd like to think he's learned something. The "Game Features" and "The Generator and the Computer" are all we have to go on, and they make me thoroughly intrigued, so I'm OK with giving him the benefit of the doubt.
23:34:32 <elliott> kmc: Can we just skip to the part where we recognise that basically every idea in existence is heavily derivative in some way, and that the synthesis and tweaking of existing ideas with a different vision can produce a clearly-derivative idea that is still new and worthwhile in its own right?
23:35:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And I don't think there's been a space sim that lets you write a program to fully automate your ship, at least not in-game.
23:35:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Probably because it's incredibly niche and entertaining to a very small number of people.
23:35:59 <Phantom_Hoover> At least when taken to the level of nonabstraction he has.
23:36:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sorry, I'll revoke my intrigue in the name of populism.
23:36:18 <elliott> shachaf: Can we force O'Reilly to take RWH out of print?
23:37:05 <elliott> "no matter how high the power (c) is to 10 multiplied by 0 would be 0. so 0x10c would imply, end of universe? just a thought. #0x10c"
23:37:37 <shachaf> elliott: What's wrong with RWH?
23:37:44 <shachaf> elliott: I think that's one of those trick sentences.
23:37:49 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well there are programming games aplenty; how many have you enjoyed?
23:38:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Programming game" is a disingenuous comparison; it's clear that there's a spectrum of automation you can choose, and I doubt anyone will automate their entire ship for anything other than kicks.
23:38:27 <elliott> (Anyway, you never played BF Joust.)
23:38:37 <elliott> shachaf: It's hideously out of date, rubbish at teaching the basics, and all the code is ugly.
23:40:01 <kmc> elliott, agree, when i say "anything new" i'm referring to precisely that "tweaking of existing ideas" and "different vision"
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23:40:46 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, how many other resource-gathering construction sandboxes were there before MC?
23:40:54 <kmc> i have no idea
23:42:20 <elliott> kmc: Well, MC is hardly Infiniminer.
23:42:52 <elliott> A cube world isn't a new idea, and nor is a goal-less sandbox game, but Minecraft combined that fully-destructable, procedural block mining terrain with sandbox goals and the focus on creation.
23:43:56 <elliott> There's also the sparseness that it had in the early days that made it very much about isolation, at least in single-player.
23:44:15 <elliott> Unfortunately it went downhill and turned into a really bad RPG.
23:45:07 <Phantom_Hoover> But yeah, I don't really think Notch has the ability to make the game he describes.
23:45:26 <Phantom_Hoover> MC kind of just rolled together with some basic features, after all.
23:45:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Once he started on long-term goals it turned into a really bad RPG.
23:47:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but that was more a problem of vision than anything; he seems to have always intended it to turn into the kind of RPG it did, and the sort of quasi-existential-horror vibe it had going turned out to be an artifact of the development process.
23:47:58 <elliott> But here, the vision seems sound, so that risk isn't really there.
23:48:23 <elliott> The only question is technical ability, and I'd like to think that (a) he's learned enough (Minecraft did get less buggy as it went on, after all), and (b) he has enough competent people in his company to mitigate it.
23:50:54 <Phantom_Hoover> He needs to be able to weave that list of individual cool things into a coherent game, not just implement each in a vacuum.
23:51:21 <elliott> You seem to be mistaking "benefit of the doubt" for "unwavering support". I'm hardly going to pass judgement before it comes out.
23:51:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I know, I'm trying to apply what we know about MC's development.
23:52:06 <Phantom_Hoover> It had plenty of half-implemented, disconnected elements.
23:52:57 <elliott> Also, I think the technical challenge is lessened by the fact that it's obviously going for an at least pseudo-retro style aesthetic, given that the logo is rendered by the game's engine and that 0 has very obvious edges.
23:53:31 <elliott> Oh, I guess "Also, think 1980's." is a more direct affirmation of that.
23:55:30 <elliott> Your abject negativity is absolutely bizarre. I realise Minecraft ended up sucking, but you could twist literally any detail about this game into naysaying.
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23:57:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I quite like space games, and of late I've been increasingly frustrated at the number of good projects which will never succeed due to an abject lack of coordination.
23:57:52 <elliott> You are the only person who can see that a game with a non-terrible vision in an area of your interest is being developed and have it manage to dampen your mood.
23:57:58 <elliott> If it fails, that doesn't affect you at all.