00:03:22 doop woop 00:06:07 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:11:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:11:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:12:28 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:20:11 -!- derdon has joined. 00:47:23 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 00:49:06 -!- augur has joined. 00:58:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:16:35 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:21:24 -!- Jafet has joined. 01:26:31 -!- augur has joined. 01:31:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:35:36 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 01:48:52 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:48:53 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:51:30 d 02:04:29 fizzie: HELP I BECAME A PERSON. 02:06:46 "Republican presidential hopeful Rick Santorum told Puerto Ricans on Wednesday they would have to make English their primary language if they want to pursue U.S. statehood, a statement at odds with the U.S. Constitution." 02:06:58 hahahaha 02:07:05 Keep it classy, man-synonymous-with-gay-sex-waste. 02:10:54 Friendly reminder: the US not only has no official language, but there are 7 distinct official languages within the US's states and territories. 02:12:38 (English, French, Spanish, Samoan, Chamorro, Carolinian) 02:12:55 (... and Hawaiian) 02:16:13 But isn't federal government stuff in United States always English, even if the individual states do not have to be English? 02:16:30 Since if it isn't, how can they do something at all? 02:16:38 zzo38: Not by law. 02:17:36 There is literally no requirement at all for the federal government to do *anything* in English. Though the regulations of many departments include a *list* of languages that they publish in. 02:18:15 For instance, the census is published in English, Spanish, Korean, Mandarin (with traditional characters), Vietnamese, and Tagalog. 02:19:03 I live in arizona, the racist state.. they passed a law mandating english only for all state functions..of course that can't include voting for any federal offices 02:19:31 actually it was a ballot proposition 02:20:31 But isn't there something like, the word "copyright" has to be written in English, or something like that? 02:21:13 Uh, probably not. 02:21:41 US law is such that it entirely suffices to refer to things in a clear way. 02:22:12 (and you can get away with unclear references, it'll just be a bit of a pain for the court to deal with) 02:22:37 You could, if you so chose, write contracts with people in 100% Latin. 02:23:30 Is it allowed to do taxes in roman numerals? 02:23:54 Keep it classy, man-synonymous-with-gay-sex-waste. 02:24:03 I thought there was some kind of international law that requires the word "copyright" to always be written in English (except Quebec). 02:24:05 Santorum's name would be a lot funnier if the synonym wasn't explicitly started to mock him. 02:24:27 I guess "man-who-was-terrible-enough-that-his-name-became-synonymous-with-gay-sex-waste" is almost as bad, if wordier. 02:24:45 (Actually worse, since it implies actual wrongdoing rather than an unfortunate family name.) 02:25:13 zzo38: There's also no reason to say "copyright" on a copyrighted work. 02:25:15 zzo38: You don't have to write the word "copyright" at all, if you're referring to copyright notices. 02:25:17 pikhq: Snap. 02:25:26 Copyright is automatic; you have to opt out if you don't want it. 02:25:50 I don't think copyright notices have /any/ legal effect nowadays. 02:26:28 elliott: They have *some* legal effect. They document the source of the copyright claim. 02:26:52 Also they're required if you still want to register the copyright. 02:26:54 But, yeah, they are little more than metadata anymore. 02:27:25 Okay, true. But copyright registration itself does little more than make it easier to demonstrate the validity of your claim. 02:27:28 RocketJSquirrel: I forget, is there any benefit at all to that? 02:27:29 Right. 02:28:01 elliott: It also means your work will (hopefully) be archived by copyright office. 02:28:10 elliott: In the USA, you can't seek statutory damages for an unregistered copyright, you can just request they stop violating it. 02:28:16 pikhq: Can I submit my 34573489537945 petabyte novel? 02:28:29 RocketJSquirrel: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I am extremely sceptical. 02:28:38 That soudns like the kind of thing which used to be true and now isn't. 02:28:38 RocketJSquirrel: You could probably still seek civil damages, though. 02:28:40 *sounds 02:28:52 elliott: Does the novel include not only text but also uncompressed 3D video? 02:28:59 zzo38: HOW DID YOU GUESS?! 02:29:23 Oh. You need to register before filing suit at all. 02:29:33 elliott: Because, why else would it be 34573489537945 petabytes long? 02:29:34 But you can register at any time. 02:29:43 That is, you can register because you intend to sue. 02:29:45 zzo38: It's true, yes. 02:30:59 elliott: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/412 02:31:40 But yes, you can still seek other damages, statutory damages are just a blanket per-work thing. 02:31:41 RocketJSquirrel: I started believin' ya once pikhq said what he said. 02:31:47 Makes it kinda pointless :P 02:32:12 Yeah, US copyright law is weird. 02:32:21 Though all copyright law is. 02:33:08 pikhq: That might be why there are many different licenses, including licenses that tell it to expire the copyright early 02:33:12 Copyright law is so simple in China. 02:33:18 It goes like this: "lol, who's gonna stop me?" 02:33:44 @ask ais523 is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki_Cyclic_Tag#MediaWiki_Interpreter meant to look like that? 02:33:44 Consider it noted. 02:33:48 Technically, they do have copyright law. 02:34:05 It's just purely unenforced for anything not Chinese. 02:34:24 @tell ais523 Also, "The above with comments removed for clarity:" I don't think you understand the purpose of comments. 02:34:24 Consider it noted. 02:36:54 In Canada, there is a law that you are not allowed to play only a part of a Canadian song on the radio; you have to play the whole thing. So I want to make each bar is just called an optional extension to the previous one with a different copyright assignment for each one, then would the radio be allowed to play only part of it? 02:37:00 02:37:14 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 02:39:18 zzo38: Is that law for real? 02:39:51 Knowing laws on Canadian media in Canada, it probably *is*. 02:40:16 elliott: Yes that is the law of the CRTC. 02:40:34 I do know that, for instance, there's laws mandating that a certain percentage of everything on the air must be Canadian. 02:40:51 (this is why there *exists* Canadian TV shows) 02:41:26 Hey, Corner Gas is great! :( 02:42:14 I'm not saying they're bad, I'm just saying they wouldn't exist without those laws. 02:42:47 If not for them, well, Canadian TV stations would just be US syndicates. 02:42:50 pikhq: Yes, that is true. But many Canadian radio and television are good, anyways. I think it is good thing that the CBC is required to do that; but I think it is a stupid law in other cases 02:43:11 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=prev&oldid=6815 OMG HACKED 02:43:46 lol 02:43:56 pikhq: I've heard some horror stories wrt very mediocre Canadian bands getting played incessantly on the radio because of those laws. 02:44:07 How Canadian does a TV show have to be to be considered Canadian? 02:44:20 If it's edited in Canada but filmed in Hollywood, is that good enough? 02:44:27 In my opinion those laws should only apply to the CBC and not to everyone. 02:44:36 elliott: Made worse by the knowledge that there's some really good Canadian bands. 02:44:45 RocketJSquirrel: I dunno. 02:45:04 RocketJSquirrel: But I will tell you that many shows get filmed in Canada just because it's cheaper. 02:45:18 Yeah, Vancouver is popular nowadays. 02:46:42 CANADA: Cheap USA 02:46:59 (fuck Nickleback) 02:51:17 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 02:54:10 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:55:39 *Nickelback PROPER RENDERING OF THE NAME IS MANDATORY 03:02:57 nickelbakc 03:05:50 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:15:13 -!- augur has joined. 03:53:02 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:58:02 -!- elliott has joined. 03:58:40 Hahaha championofbirds is loading really slowly. I've sent such a torrent of traffic, the site just can't keep up! 04:03:11 RocketJSquirrel: Loads quickly here. 04:13:31 Yeah, it was only slow for a minute apparently. 04:17:04 RocketJSquirrel: How often are you checking, exactly? 04:18:01 I checked seconds before I wrote that, then minutes later to see if it was still slow. 04:18:09 Then, after you wrote your line. 04:18:59 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:19:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:28:18 -!- augur has joined. 04:28:44 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:28:59 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:06:00 -!- asiekierka has joined. 05:09:52 For those who may have heard me talking about www.baldursgate.com but haven't heard about it since (I don't know if that's anybody :P)... 05:10:14 Yes, it was official. Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition, coming this summer. 05:10:26 Isn't Baldur's Gate a boring game? 05:12:38 pikhq: Hey, I was going to check that two hours after fizzie mentioned it. 05:12:40 But NO, I forgot. 05:14:27 https://twitter.com/#!/TrentOster Here, have fun. 05:15:36 (Trent Oster is cofounder of Beamdog, the company doing BG:EE, and before that was a cofounder of Bioware.) 05:23:58 Where's the fun 05:51:38 So. Apparently Ulrich is no longer the glibc maintainer. 05:56:21 wat 05:57:54 pikhq: src? 05:58:04 The commit log shows him basically no longer making substantial commits, and he appears to have been pulled from the bugzilla... http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/describecomponents.cgi?product=glibc These used to all be assigned to Ulrich. 05:58:17 elliott: Nothing official, but seriously, it's like he just fell off the project. 06:00:05 Also, bugs along the lines of "this hyperoptimised assembly version of function X is incorrect" get fixed instead of a "no it's not" response now. 06:02:40 Maybe he was fired. 06:03:38 His last substantial commit was Jan. 31. 06:03:43 (I mean, from Red Hat.) 06:04:50 elliott: He left Red hat in 2010. 06:05:12 Oh. 06:05:24 He is now VP, Technology Division at Goldman Sachs. 06:08:37 And the mailing list is now flooded with breakage fix. 06:15:55 Does anyone even use glibc? 06:16:00 *Ahah*. The guy with most of the recent commits, Joseph Myers, is/was the eglibc maintainer. 06:17:19 egglibc 06:28:02 rip eglibc 06:28:27 mov %rip, eglibc 06:33:30 There's no encoding for that! 06:35:09 lea 0(%rip), %rax; mov %rax, eglibc. 06:36:08 AT&T syntax sucks. 06:37:20 fizzie: By the way, I actually think zem.fi looks pretty nice, apart from the 5,000 things wrong with it which are because you are of Finnish intelligence. (Didn't want you to get the wrong impression.) 06:37:30 We need some kind of stamp. "OKAY - FOR A FINN". 06:38:05 Yeah, AT&T syntax is *nasty*. 06:38:30 disp(base, index, scale)? *eeew* 06:38:55 elliott: And to think that I wrote all the HTNL by speaking to a speech recognition system. (Not really.) 06:39:16 [base + index*scale + disp] 06:39:22 Which syntax do you prefer then? 06:39:32 fizzie: You made a mistake: "HTNL". It should be: "HTML". 06:39:35 zzo38: Intel syntax. 06:39:40 Try enunciating more precisely so your speech recognition software does not get confused. 06:39:45 (It is of Finnish intelligence.) 06:40:01 (that would be the one used in the DOS and Windows assemblers) 06:40:05 I prefer the syntax similar to the DOS DEBUG program 06:40:38 But with some differences 06:40:57 That is Intel syntax. 06:41:04 right that's intel syntax 06:41:14 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:42:03 -!- MoALTz has joined. 06:45:13 How about when you want just [disp + scale*index] and have to write disp(,index,scale)? Or when you want to call [eax] but it's written call *%eax instead? Or [a couple more examples I collected but have now forgotten]? 06:46:01 Gaaah. 06:46:34 And the argument swap always screws me up. 06:48:22 fizzie: Remember when Vorpal was all "oh no AT&T syntax is much easier" and you said [disp + scale*index] (or something of the sort) and he was all "WTF DOES THAT MEAN???" and then you were like "It's disp(,index,scale)" and he was all "WELL NOW IT'S OBVIOUS"? 06:48:30 What I'm saying is that AT&T syntax is dumb. 06:48:32 I have written a x86 assembler once. 06:51:08 http://sprunge.us/iQNG 06:51:45 This program is public domain 06:53:42 It has its own syntax and only creates raw binaries, it doesn't make EXE headers or anything else like that. 06:54:04 But you can specify the offset at which it loads into memory. 06:54:28 Hmm. So, it could just barely make Linux a.out binaries. 06:54:43 And some instructions are missing, although most of them are there. You can fix it if you want to. 06:55:06 (All real mode instructions are present, however. Some protected mode instructions are missing.) 06:55:24 And of course it should do just fine for COM. 06:55:38 Yes, it works fine for COM. 06:55:53 a.out can be raw? 06:55:57 It also has macros, so it might be possible to use macros for encoding some kind of header formats. 06:56:28 elliott: You could hack it. a.out is *nearly* raw. 06:57:42 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 06:58:22 Basically, you've got an 8 word header and then your stuff. 06:58:41 (more if your code is going to be dynamic linked, but... Really? Why bother.) 07:18:48 But if you want to write protected mode programs you probably need to fix it to work with all of the protected instructions. 07:18:58 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:19:24 You can hack together a dynamically linked ELF executable in a binary-producing assembler too, it's not like it'd be anything else than bytes. 07:19:32 -!- cswords_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:25:29 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:27:33 True. It's not even *that* hard. 07:27:41 ELF data structures aren't terribly complex. 07:27:53 Hmm. 07:28:05 When was the last time I talked about personal stuff in here? 07:28:09 It's been a while, right? 07:28:14 Think so. 07:28:16 (No, I'm not about to give you updates) 07:29:14 Is talking about talking about your personal stuff the new talking about your personal stuff? 07:32:48 -!- aloril has joined. 07:39:55 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 07:55:03 -!- mtve has joined. 08:27:59 tswett, update 09:16:10 http://img.lulz.net/src/PEnsd.gif 09:33:24 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:33:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:56:55 * oerjan wonders if today's xkcd has a hidden meaning or if the incomprehensibility is the _entire_ point. 09:59:26 both! 09:59:26 ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 09:59:30 @messages 09:59:30 elliott asked 7h 25m 42s ago: is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki_Cyclic_Tag#MediaWiki_Interpreter meant to look like that? 09:59:31 elliott said 7h 25m 1s ago: Also, "The above with comments removed for clarity:" I don't think you understand the purpose of comments. 10:01:25 @tell elliott yes, it is meant to look at that, and the implementation of the interpreter puts junk comments in its output, so removing them does indeed make it clearer 10:01:25 Consider it noted. 10:01:32 @tell elliott *like 10:01:33 Consider it noted. 10:11:13 -!- MSleep has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:12:35 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 10:13:20 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 10:27:46 -!- derdon has joined. 10:54:06 I invented a game in seven hours called "KING" that at first at ask you a difficulty level and gives you description of your character such as "You have red scales, seven eyes, and no feet" and then the goal of the game is to collect 100 stones to become king. 10:55:48 You can also use the stones to fight (although you might lose the stones if you do that), and there are also potions. 10:58:23 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/49064620/2012-03-16_05.33.15.png < 64 bit random access ROM in Minecraft~ 10:58:33 Now to make actual random access memory 10:59:29 "random access ROM"? so it's both ROM and RAM /simultaneously/? 11:00:37 * ais523 notes that RAM is a bit of a weird name for what it's usually used for 11:03:41 -!- Jafet has joined. 11:04:38 ais523, it's ROM that can be randomly accessed. 11:04:49 (Unlike piston tapes, etc) 11:05:31 _true_ random access memory: you access a random bit each time. 11:06:25 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 11:06:53 ROM just means read-only, and RAM just means random-access, so really there's nothing preventing it from being both ... in fact, most real ROM is RAROM I suppose. 11:09:44 SDDDDDRRARWM 11:09:55 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:12:04 Jafet: that's a really bad throat you've got, maybe you should see a doctor 11:13:44 One who gives good throat? 11:15:22 * oerjan swats Jafet -----### 11:15:52 * Jafet phlegms. 11:16:05 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 11:24:57 I have a game on my computer, where the first sentence of the READ.ME file says: "BIS (Bugs In Space!) is a text-adventure style game (similar to Rogue or Hack)." That is untrue--it is not a text-adventure style game nor is it similar to Rogue or Hack. 11:25:49 Nor are text-adventure style games similar to Rogue or Hack. 11:26:13 I know. 11:26:23 bullshit in space 11:30:27 Game pieces include walls which cannot be moved through (although no points are lost for trying), water (which also cannot be moved through, but you lose ten points for trying), boulders (which can be pushed into water to make land), diamonds (worth 100 points when collected), hearts (also worth 100 points when collected -- no different to diamonds), food (can be collected but has no effect) 11:31:02 To reach the next level, you have to go into the house 11:32:28 There are "good arrows" which point to the left, and can be collected to shoot (W for short-range, F for long-range); and "bad arrows" which point up and down. 11:36:38 Other pieces include keys, doors, mirrors (have the same appearance as your piece, but otherwise act like walls), invisible walls, monster freezers, "Strong You" (the description is "can't move; keeps track of lives"), diamond makers (actually they make hearts as well), question marks (which become a random object when touched), flashing lights that kill you if touched, swappers, and holes. 11:37:21 If you win the game it displays the message: "YOU WIN! YOU WIN! YOU WIN! You have found $200 and the Tetro pieces of Ixi-Bixis" (I don't know what that is). 11:42:21 btw, for fun, I tried reading the EULA of some shovelware games that came with Windows when I bought the computer 11:42:28 (didn't actually /accept/ it, of course) 11:42:43 among other things, it allowed them to modify it at any time simply by posting that they were doing so on their website 11:42:50 and disallowed you from uninstalling the software 11:42:59 I'd be pretty surprised if it were enforceable… 11:45:36 "I didn't uninstall it, i just ground its bits to dust with dd" 11:48:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:54:25 -!- nortti has joined. 12:03:53 oerjan: they also disallowed you directly or indirectly removing bits of it 12:04:37 no no, you see, the bits are still _there_. i'm sure the NSA could read them _just_ fine... 12:05:47 I doubt such thing is valid especially if the software game with the computer 12:08:58 -!- MDude has joined. 12:09:21 zzo38: it did, but it wanted you to accept the EULA before doing anything but putting up an EULA acceptance dialog 12:10:46 RocketJSquirrel: re the topic, we really need to start an esolang programmer interviews section 12:10:55 even if they weren't being interviewed about esolangs 12:11:12 -!- FireFly has quit (Changing host). 12:13:29 also, I'm having problems trying to work out who was trolling in that interview 12:13:31 possibly both of you 12:14:28 does it count as trolling if it's almost entirely for humor in the first place. 12:15:12 also, why don't i use question marks any longer. 12:15:58 `pastelogs oerjan>.*[?]$ 12:16:13 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28391 12:16:44 bah too long 12:16:55 `pastlog .*\?$ 12:17:24 oh there were plenty of hits in 2007... :P 12:17:28 No output. 12:17:34 `pastlog .*\?$ 12:17:53 2009-10-07.txt:22:51:43: Gregor: the third source comic link on that lonely dino strip is not working. also, why the heck are you going via google? 12:18:04 that was 2009 12:18:27 TOO LONG AGO 12:18:37 `cat bin/pastelogs 12:18:39 ​#!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ \ pasterandom() { \ if [ "$1" -gt 150 ]; then \ echo "No." \ exit \ fi \ for i in $(seq "$1"); do \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ done | paste \ } \ \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ pasterandom "$1" \ else \ lines=$(grep -P -i -- "$1" 12:19:11 `run cat bin/pastelogs | tail 12:19:14 lines=$(grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | head -n 301) \ { \ echo "$lines" | head -n 300 \ [ $(echo "$lines" | wc -l) -eq 301 ] && echo "[too many lines; stopping]" \ } | paste \ fi \ else \ pasterandom 40 \ fi \ 12:19:45 hmph 12:21:42 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:09:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 13:53:39 I'm sick of netpbm's make script stopping on "pnmtopng.c:2795: error: 'ZLIB_VERSION' undeclared (first use in this function)" under OS X. Can anyone help? 13:55:37 do you have zlib installed? 13:55:50 and if so, is it looking at the right headers to find it? 13:55:52 yes I do 13:56:04 seems to be 13:56:37 -!- boily has joined. 14:01:08 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120312200651]). 14:01:54 It seems to be assuming that automatically includes . I guess that's reasonable, but I'm not entirely sure it's explicitly guaranteed. 14:15:13 -!- MoALTz__ has joined. 14:17:48 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:21:25 -!- tzxn3 has joined. 14:28:02 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Chess And Umbrella-Twirling Made Easy). 14:44:22 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:51:18 also, I'm having problems trying to work out who was trolling in that interview // I believe the only valid answer is "both of us" 14:51:39 I think so, indeed 14:52:26 fascinating how read-only and random-access are treated as mutually exclusive concepts 14:54:48 -!- Vorpal has joined. 14:55:17 another possible naming system is RM read memory / RWM read write memory 14:55:25 but that would be stupid 14:57:50 bleh 16:16:41 -!- monqy has joined. 16:18:13 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:30:29 ais523: Also, are you volunteering to be interviewer? X-D 16:30:41 (For esoprogrammer interviews, that is) 16:30:51 I'm not sure, but probably not 16:31:10 I was more referencing that Keymaker and I had been interviewed too 16:31:44 But neither directly related to esolangs, no? 16:32:09 -!- asiekierka has joined. 16:33:33 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:33:47 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 16:40:09 -!- nortti has joined. 16:47:35 Sacha Baron Cohen is English. 16:47:35 Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 16:47:43 W H A T 17:01:44 you think he was canadia? 17:03:31 @tell elliott MOST SHOCKING TWIST YET 17:03:31 Consider it noted. 17:03:41 quintopia, no, I just never thought he'd be English? 17:10:37 Phantom_Hoover: isn't the whole /point/ that he's white and English and tries to emphasise that he isn't at every opportunity? 17:11:16 Possibly, but I know next to nothing about him. 17:12:56 that's the main defining feature of his comedy 17:14:02 -!- Jafet has joined. 17:15:17 i could forgive someone thinking he wasn't though, considering he speaks hebrew fluently. if someone said "israeli" i'd say it was more plausible than not. 17:19:08 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:19:22 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 17:30:57 hm, What would you say defines a "rogue like"? Does it have to be turn based for example? 17:31:09 (I guess I should highlight ais523 for that question) 17:31:59 Vorpal: there have been debates over the definition 17:32:15 there's a definition that people came up with at a roguelike conference, but it's generally considered imperfect 17:32:29 hm okay 17:33:02 ais523, got a link or anything useful for googling that? 17:33:52 http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php/Berlin_Interpretation 17:34:01 thanks 17:35:29 so pretty vague definition, okay 17:35:46 ais523, hm do you know any game you would consider rogue like that isn't turn based? 17:36:12 Spelunky? 17:36:19 I've often wished it were turn-based, though 17:36:25 never heard of it *googles* 17:36:26 which is surprising given that it's a platformer 17:36:39 as well as a roguelike 17:36:49 uh... I don't see how a turn based platformer would even work :D 17:37:08 everything pauses when you're not moving 17:37:18 like world 4 of Braid 17:37:23 ah yes 17:38:14 I'm not sure I would call world 4 of Braid turn based. For example you don't need to provide input to move (if you are falling) 17:39:09 Vorpal: but that's just logical. the game realized that your input would not change the outcome, and so just ran turns until it would again 17:39:26 also you can move as much as you want during a turn, by bouncing up and down. So each "player" (you or a mob) doesn't take a turn moving 17:39:45 quintopia, oh but it would. You could move sideways when falling after all 17:39:56 oh really? 17:39:58 like in most platformers (unrealistic of course) 17:40:07 in that case, yeah, you'd want to be able to pause midair too 17:40:23 well you could just go back in time of course 17:40:24 the motion scheme should be DROD-like 17:40:29 DROD? 17:40:49 everyone moves at once when you press a key 17:41:05 perhaps DROD is a rogue-like 17:41:15 oh DROD is a game? 17:41:43 oh 17:41:49 DROD does not have randomized levels 17:41:54 does that disqualify it? 17:42:01 possibly 17:42:18 I guess it depends on how much else it manages to do 17:43:23 well it is definitely a dungeon-crawler 17:43:31 with lots of environmental features 17:43:48 some items to collect 17:43:59 not much in the way of RPG-style stats tho 17:44:11 all enemies can be killed just by touching them with the sword 17:44:21 so its more of a puzzler 17:45:09 anyway I was wondering if a twin stick shooter style real time combat "rogue like" would be fun. Saw some game trailer slightly along those lines some time ago (didn't catch the name) but it didn't seem to have resource management and so on anyway. But it got me thinking anyway. It did have random levels though 17:47:22 not sure if it is just nethack, but the rogue likes I can think of doesn't have much in the way of quests. Sure nethack has the main quest. And then there is the class quest, but that is required for the main quest anyway. But not a lot of side quests really. 17:47:22 you mean something like Gun Bros? 17:47:33 quintopia, not sure what that one is *googles* 17:47:58 lacks wikipedia page? Or search engine just messing with me? 17:48:17 quintopia, okay it lacks wikipedia page, what is it 17:48:33 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnDzMTCFtNs 17:49:45 it does lack resource management...health is the the only thing you have to maintain. there are some specials you can buy, but the main point is avoiding getting hit/shot while killing everything 17:50:03 oh an iphone game, no idea about the controls on such a thing. On console it is one analogue stick to move and one to aim. On PC it is usually wasd to move and mouse to aim 17:50:31 its two virtual sticks. you can se them in the bottom left and right corners 17:50:49 is one of the guys computer controlled? 17:51:37 yeah 17:51:47 completely useless too 17:51:50 just dies a lot 17:51:55 doesn't look like a particularly fun game that one 17:52:13 seems to be approximately what you described 17:52:23 well yeah, but the controls must be terrible 17:52:36 controls are completely intuitive 17:52:38 I really think you need the precision of a PC mouse for that type of game. 17:52:41 what did you have in mind? 17:53:01 I'm questioning weather you get the required precision with those controls 17:53:44 not as sensitive to precision issues as a FPS, but still 17:53:45 i have no trouble placing myself and hitting what i'm aiming at. haven't played in a while though cuz its one of those real-money=virtual-upgrades games 17:54:07 ugh, that type of game 17:54:56 so, other than controls, what did you have in mind 17:55:39 well, the resource management of nethack, and possibly not using guns. Would work just fine with magic 17:56:19 why realtime and not continuous-time-turn-based as ais described? 17:56:48 to require quick reactions 17:56:56 you can't just stand there 17:57:11 but you're still gonna have permanent death? 17:57:13 Vorpal: you might also be interested in http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=What_a_roguelike_is 17:57:13 hm, also stealth elements might be interesting. Not sure how that would work with a top down or isometric perspective though. 17:57:26 (I /really/ like stealth games) 17:57:26 and ADOM is a really quest-heavy roguelike 17:57:30 ah okay 17:57:35 haven't played ADOM 17:57:51 played nethack, slashem, a little bit of angband (forgot which variant, was years ago) 17:57:58 ADOM is somewhat spoiler-heavy 17:58:04 also, closed-source 17:58:07 ah 17:58:13 spoiler-heavy? 17:58:35 ais523, anyway a rogue like definitely doesn't need ASCII graphics. 17:58:40 indeed 17:58:46 it doesn't need any single one of the factors 17:58:47 just look at Dungeons of Dredmor (sp?) 17:58:57 oh, /that/ needs ASCII graphics ;) 17:59:01 oh? 17:59:02 (or at least, a better camera angle) 17:59:05 well yes 17:59:09 it is oblique I think 17:59:14 which is not really such a good angle 17:59:27 isometric usually looks nicer 17:59:54 hm what about a first person rogue like 18:00:51 ais523, I can't think of a rogue like without at least an option for permadeath though 18:01:04 and slaughtering loads of enemies 18:01:13 what about a second person rogue-like? where you can only ever see your character's face and what's immediately behind him? 18:01:30 I don't think I ever heard of a second person game... 18:01:31 heh 18:01:43 choose your own adventure books are typically second person 18:01:47 ah okay 18:03:54 actually I think you might need some sort of turn based system, at least as long as you have hunger. Without hunger you could pause in a safe position when trying to figure out where to go. Same with turn based (easily) 18:04:01 but not so much with real time hunger 18:07:55 Vorpal: Spelunky doesn't have hunger, but sometimes an area you thought was safe isn't (slow-moving monster catches up to you, etc) 18:08:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:08:25 ah 18:11:00 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:13:09 Hello! 18:13:16 hi 18:14:28 hi! 18:19:18 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7). 18:38:27 lol 18:47:17 -!- mniip has joined. 18:48:12 -!- mniip has left. 19:13:44 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Goodbye). 19:42:01 -!- tzxn3 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:53:35 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:55:44 -!- MoALTz has joined. 20:01:31 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:05:25 -!- elliott has joined. 20:15:33 09:56:55: * oerjan wonders if today's xkcd has a hidden meaning or if the incomprehensibility is the _entire_ point. 20:15:33 elliott: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 20:15:42 @ask oerjan are you aware of the standard meaning of "keying a car"? 20:15:43 Consider it noted. 20:21:23 12:19:14: lines=$(grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | head -n 301) \ { \ echo "$lines" | head -n 300 \ [ $(echo "$lines" | wc -l) -eq 301 ] && echo "[too many lines; stopping]" \ } | paste \ fi \ else \ pasterandom 40 \ fi \ 20:21:23 12:19:45: hmph 20:21:28 @ask oerjan do you want a --tail option? 20:21:29 Consider it noted. 20:22:05 16:30:51: I'm not sure, but probably not 20:22:05 16:31:10: I was more referencing that Keymaker and I had been interviewed too 20:22:05 16:31:44: But neither directly related to esolangs, no? 20:22:09 RocketJSquirrel: It was for esolangs. 20:22:28 (By [[User:Rottytooth]], who is a digital artist thing: http://danieltemkin.com/) 20:23:54 RocketJSquirrel: http://danieltemkin.com/blog/post/Interview-with-Keymaker.aspx http://danieltemkin.com/blog/post/Interview-with-ais523.aspx 20:25:57 "St. Patricks Day 'Fight Brain Cancer while Killing Brain Cells' Dance Party" :D 20:27:43 I'm sorry, you are a) American and b) have used the words "Saint", "Patrick's" and "Day" adjacently. 20:27:47 Get. Out. 20:29:27 "The title of this article is incorrect because of technical limitations. There should be no title." 20:29:33 I am sorely tempted to hide the

on [[TLWNN]]. 20:30:30 TLWNN, pronounced as it as spelt. 20:30:54 (It's Welsh.) 20:45:04 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:45:53 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 20:46:29 @messages 20:46:29 elliott asked 30m 46s ago: are you aware of the standard meaning of "keying a car"? 20:46:29 elliott asked 25m ago: do you want a --tail option? 20:46:38 no, and that would be nice. 20:47:29 although ideally it should take a date range of sorts... 20:48:22 aha, so that's what it means. 20:48:34 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:50:05 oerjan: it's still not funny 20:50:08 but at least it makes some sense :P 20:50:12 okay 20:50:24 as far as date range goes: i'm not paid that much 20:51:02 elliott: well what about allowing that ????-??-?? glob used in it to be passed as an argument? 20:51:58 yeah, ok 20:52:05 it'll have to make it go through shell expansion though 20:52:09 thanks to HackEgo's argument pasing 20:52:18 (and the different directory) 20:52:25 i'm not sure how to do that 20:52:31 maybe echo $1 20:52:59 well `run pastelogs 'myregexp' '????-??-??' would be good enough for this rare use? 20:53:23 i suppose that still expands a few things 20:53:27 um i don't think you understand. 20:53:38 i don't know how to get the shell to expand that ????-??-?? string given 20:53:54 `run blah='*'; echo $blah 20:53:59 bin canary karma lib paste quotes share wisdom 20:54:02 oh, that works. 20:54:11 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:55:44 well i understand shell expansion even less than you do, obviously 20:56:31 `url bin/pastelogs 20:56:34 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/pastelogs 20:56:48 hm what's the bash for "this variable or this string if it's not set" 20:56:50 ${foo:bar}? 20:56:55 s/bash/sh/ 20:58:27 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:01:19 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:04:58 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 21:05:16 I am sorely tempted to hide the

on [[TLWNN]]. <-- it's for a good cause, right? 21:06:14 I would do it if it started "The language with no name is a ..." rather than "'''The Language With No Name''' is a ...", which explicitly gives it a name. 21:08:19 i note that on the first page of google hits for "the nameless one", nearly all hits have the words capitalized. 21:09:22 How many are related to Planescape: Torment? 21:09:41 Quite a few, I see. 21:10:10 this still holds true up to page 4 21:12:05 i actually didn't know about that character, i was just remembering a similarly named villain from the Torg roleplaying game, which i played way back 21:12:58 Hey, it's that game people here like. 21:13:05 Well... the Finns at least. 21:13:29 sadly that game essentially died after a few years, i think. 21:13:43 No, I mean Planescape: Torment. 21:13:45 (i didn't play it for long myself though.) 21:13:52 "The game's story begins when The Nameless One wakes up in a mortuary.[4][18] He is immediately approached by a floating skull, Morte, who offers advice on how to escape." 21:13:53 TURN BACK 21:13:55 TUURN BACK 21:13:58 DARKNESS WILL ENVELOP YOU 21:15:05 elliott: i wasn't expecting you to be speaking about Torg, as i said i think it essentially died. 21:15:27 oh this was a pen and paper RPG, i hear you need to mention that nowadays :P 21:15:46 (from DMM) 21:15:58 * elliott gets off oerjan's lawn. 21:19:01 looks like it's in eternal "too be revived" mode 21:19:04 *to 21:27:52 I wonder if I shold play "Tales of Monkey Island". 21:28:03 I wonder if those quote marks are incorrect. 21:28:04 *should 21:29:07 Is the term "noncomposite" sometimes used in mathematics? 21:29:17 Since 1 and primes are noncomposite 21:32:35 One is subprime? 21:36:44 composite mortgages 21:37:16 when i first played Maniac Mansion on NES i loved it... 21:37:31 the catchy music helped too 21:38:22 our neighbor, my brother and i would camp around the tv ringing up the nintendo hotline trying to find solutions to puzzles 21:39:40 it wasn't until much much later i learned it was made with SCUMM and the rest of that story 21:43:57 without which the precious Monkey Island wouldn't exist 21:44:52 Can prime and composite be generalized to other monoids? 21:48:54 And then "composite" is something made from two things not identity 22:05:35 http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/qzz3f/scumbag_fromintegral/ dlf;dlsdf;sdf kill kill kill 22:06:18 -!- MoALTz has joined. 22:07:27 killl 22:08:19 * oerjan guesses: it's an adviceanimals invader? 22:08:23 yes 22:08:38 it's not even a scumbag thing it's just fry 22:08:38 so 22:08:39 the title 22:08:40 doesn't 22:08:41 even 22:08:41 make 22:08:41 any 22:08:42 sense 22:08:44 its 22:08:46 the 22:08:48 worst 22:08:50 post 22:08:52 ever 22:09:06 um fry is the "can't tell if ... or ..." one, right 22:09:19 yes. 22:09:27 except it doesn't actually fit that format. 22:09:54 indeed 22:09:57 so a troll, i guess 22:10:16 no, user account history suggests just stupid. 22:10:39 OKAY 22:11:27 you missed a space. 22:12:08 no, that was intentional to mean that wasn't really sarcastic 22:13:04 i guessed it was intentional. i was "trolling" you so that u mad. 22:13:18 we should hire Dr. Dan Streetmentioner to clarify these differences. 22:14:02 umad? 22:14:12 im going to name my firstborn umad 22:14:44 Umad ibn Elliott al Rashid 22:17:06 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/umad-malik/27/32/844 22:18:07 i think he mad 22:19:09 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:22:12 -!- cswords has joined. 22:26:32 oerjan: wish me luck 22:26:33 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 22:28:43 $ grep '^\*' Language_list | sed 's/^\* \[\[:\?//; s/|.*//; s/\]\]$//' | grep -v '^Category:' >langlist 22:30:35 -!- derdon has joined. 22:34:35 -!- nortti has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120312200651]). 22:37:48 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:38:03 > ((++" Batman!") . take 48 . cycle . show) (0/0) 22:38:05 "NaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaN Batman!" 22:38:34 (new HWN) 22:42:15 oerjan: guess what this is: http://sprunge.us/BTgd 22:42:47 oh hm there is some brokenness there 22:43:00 what's the best way to get all the _non-common_ lines from two files... 22:43:00 judging from the logs, a diff between Language list and Category:Languages 22:43:03 (and which file they're in) 22:43:07 "The color is #NanNanNan", said gcolor to me while I was fiddling with it. 22:43:23 (Or probably #NaNNaNNaN.) 22:50:15 ah yes. that color 22:52:06 oerjan: would a bot in here that announces wiki changes be nice. 22:52:19 i think we can judge that since the r g and b components all = NaN then it's a shade, or is it possible NaN a =/= NaN b 22:53:15 hi fizzie 22:53:17 >.< 22:53:48 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9743991/simple-random-number-generation/9744888#9744888 the worst possible answer to this question. 22:56:44 I have used Xorshift to generate random numbers. But, METAFONT has another algorithm for random numbers, too. 22:59:07 zzo38: i dont want to pry into personal life, just seeking advice.. so if you wanted to get away from chat for a few hours while at home, what would you do? 22:59:36 itidus21: Turn it off. 22:59:42 but then what? 23:00:18 Possibly, read a book, play a computer game, write a computer program, or sleep. 23:00:28 Or eating. 23:00:58 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:01:03 would you ever expect to do more than these things while at home? 23:01:15 "Recall that Haskell is a language free of side effects." 23:01:25 Loving the conflation of referential transparency and side effects. 23:01:45 itidus21: Yes I would expect to do more than these things while at home. I am just giving a few examples. 23:01:51 ok cool 23:02:07 Such as, sometimes I play Dungeons & Dragons game. 23:03:19 i don't understand my own life really. 23:03:40 61.250.80.133 - - [16/Mar/2012:22:55:50 +0000] "GET /user/soapCaller.bs HTTP/1.1" 404 142 "-" "Morfeus Fucking Scanner" 23:03:40 wat. 23:03:46 just as it's possible for a novice to not understand the game of tictactoe they're playing.. 23:04:04 but an outside observer can see whats going on with it 23:04:32 it all feels quite random to me 23:05:10 that would be the learned helplessness talking, unless i subconciously know that and am just pretending to have learned helplessness 23:05:36 elliott: $ grep -ic 'morfeus fucking' zem.fi-access.log 23:05:36 287 23:06:08 fizzie: I mean, "Morfeus Fucking Scanner" is a pretty badass name. 23:06:21 It is, but I'm not sure how to group it. 23:06:39 I mean, is it Morfeus (Fucking Scanner) or is it just Fucking for emphasis. 23:07:00 Fucking is the middle name. 23:07:06 Morfeus F. Scanner in polite company. 23:07:11 Right. 23:07:16 Not that Morfeus Fucking Scanner really "does" polite company. 23:07:39 Sometimes Morfeus F. (or Uncle Fuck) goes for /index2.php?_REQUEST[option]=com_content&_REQUEST[Itemid]=1&GLOBALS=&mosConfig_absolute_path=http://makina.org/sugarfree/1.gif?/ or others instead, it seems. 23:07:39 oerjan: would a bot in here that announces wiki changes be nice. <-- hm why not. 23:07:44 I thought of a poker game with Pokemon cards. You play like Texas Hold'em, using a deck that does not contain any basic energy cards. After the betting is finished, each player gets a duplicate of all five community cards, and the two cards in their hand, become their initial hand. You can then bid on basic energy cards the remainder of your starting draw pile. 23:08:12 http://makina.org/sugarfree/1.gif ;; aww, 404. 23:08:19 fizzie: That must be something trying to exploit PHP register_globals isn't it? 23:08:21 Even http://makina.org/sugarfree/ is 404. 23:08:44 oerjan: well it would be fun if we got a spam wave 23:08:59 (a la Ejuzarih) 23:09:20 zzo38: Likely something like that. There's also another doing /?_SERVER[DOCUMENT_ROOT]=http://87.119.200.140/include/template/templates_c/1.gif?/ which I think is also trying to trick some server to act as an open proxy. 23:11:06 that would be the learned helplessness talking [...] <-- this reminds of that recent link on mezzacotta: http://lesswrong.com/lw/ar2/biased_pandemic 23:11:41 Do you like my idea of Ibtlfmm allowing the main to be of any type instead of only IO? (but to make a standalone executable it still has to be either (IO ()) or (unsafe "c_int(c_int,c_char**)"), otherwise you can make a dynamically loadable file but not a standalone executable) 23:11:51 -!- MoALTz has joined. 23:13:11 (If the computer has "int" being 32-bits and "char" being 8-bits, then you can also use (unsafe "i32(i32,i8**)") as the type of main) 23:15:39 -!- MoALTz_ has joined. 23:15:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 23:16:16 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:19:57 Common Lisp feels more ... static-checky than PHP 23:22:59 -!- azaq23 has joined. 23:23:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:23:48 hi weboerjan. 23:24:01 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:24:10 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:24:21 good evening 23:25:11 oerjan: i think that is really quite profound 23:26:20 especially the idea of eventually getting so subtle about it that the players will guess your _real_ biases instead. 23:26:55 oh that involved the "No Bias" card, iirc 23:28:02 i like the idea that people can actually learn something from playing a game 23:28:10 What cards? 23:28:58 zzo38: see the link i gave to the game 23:29:00 also... the way it subverts the investment in winning and losing 23:30:16 I think if (r) is Monoid and (m) is Applicative, there is a way to get a free Alternative instance for (ContT r m) 23:31:11 elliott, tswett monqy update 23:31:20 Phantom_Hoover, 23:31:36 I'm glad that I merit my own line. 23:31:50 zzo38: oh hm there were no actual cards with the biases, they just used ordinary playing cards for random selection. although surely you could make cards for the biases instead. 23:33:21 KANAYA: I Feel As Though This Conversation Has Utterly Outmaneuvered My Constructive Involvement 23:33:21 KANAYA: Im Going To Go 23:33:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:34:03 empty = ContT . const $ pure mempty; ContT x <|> ContT y = ContT $ \z -> liftA2 mappend (x z) (y z); 23:35:05 "Ouch! Got SIGTERM, dying..eeze1) ..." --aptitude. 23:35:06 that lambda is (liftA2 . liftA2) mappend x y. 23:35:41 fizzie: I think you broke it. 23:35:43 elliott: OK 23:40:26 And I think that if (r) is a ring then so is (Cont r a) although it is not necessarily a computable ring. 23:41:15 zzo38: i wonder if that's essentially the trick they use to emulate things like the list monad with continuations 23:42:02 oerjan: "things like"? you can do any monad with Cont 23:42:23 elliott: well yes, but the list monad might turn into something like that? 23:43:12 ok 23:43:40 oerjan: I don't know. 23:43:49 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:43:54 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 23:47:19 oerjan: what should the recent changes bot be called. 23:49:38 this is a trap right? 23:50:33 no. but i will elect you POTUS if you don't answer. 23:50:59 that's going to be an impressive achievement. 23:51:20 suggestion 1: newsham 23:51:41 or was there a hyphen in that 23:51:45 news-ham. 23:51:47 newsham is a person. 23:51:52 this is not a coincidence. 23:51:56 i know 23:52:06 speaking of which, i never did get around to writing cs-words. 23:52:30 or c-swords, i take 23:53:10 that sounds significantly more difficult. 23:53:23 O KAY 23:54:51 oerjan: I cannot see how you can use the things like I have specified, to emulate things like a list monad with continuations 23:55:03 oerjan: i was looking for an actually meaningful name, btw :p 23:55:19 elliott: suggestion 2: eso-ham 23:56:19 zzo38: ok 23:56:31 How hard would it be to decrypt my encrypted ~ stuff on Windows? 23:57:59 impossible. well... 23:58:05 you could attach the device to a VM I suppose.