< 1331683286 662899 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: 7 days. (W|A.) < 1331683296 465350 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1331683332 577601 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(604800 seconds.) < 1331683522 223541 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Wikipedia used a stock timespan parser from somewhere, which has a bunch of joke features < 1331683537 432345 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other day W|A threw me an interstitial-style pop-up-and-darken-the-rest-of-the-page ad about something or other, plus a "switch to W|A Pro to get rid of annoying ads" text. < 1331683594 929595 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe "modal dialog ad" is a more apt description. < 1331683614 87145 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that sounds like an advertisement for modal dialogs. < 1331683647 593959 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Get your modal dialogs here! App-modal, system-modal, we've got them all!" < 1331683830 249866 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.158 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1331684229 809819 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 11218573000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 plancktime -> "seconds" < 1331684240 287272 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :604819.95790859072818 seconds < 1331684252 443136 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Thar < 1331684265 247272 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 11218573000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 plancktime -> "weeks" < 1331684269 214713 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's with the quotes at the end? < 1331684275 2834 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.0000329991874846696 weeks < 1331684286 833697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 1 week -> "plancktime" < 1331684296 787318 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.1218202808422283826e+49 plancktime < 1331684298 76495 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Quotes tell frink to just display the unit at the end... < 1331684303 148732 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink ` week -> plancktime < 1331684305 950934 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compare. < 1331684311 68766 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, bleh. < 1331684311 970420 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 1 week -> plancktime < 1331684314 894116 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unrecognized character '`' in line 1, column 0... ignoring. \ 1.1218202808422283826e+49 < 1331684323 922398 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.1218202808422283826e+49 < 1331684331 722225 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, changes whether the unit's displayed < 1331684333 185402 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's weird < 1331684342 219492 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but that's how frink works. < 1331684372 611796 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy pi day! < 1331684400 261732 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION notes that US units are really mad.
< 1331684409 649223 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 6 feet -> "survey feet" < 1331684420 85948 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :1499997/250000 (exactly 5.999988) survey feet < 1331684439 251617 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's right, multiple notions of the foot. < 1331684443 118978 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION suddenly realizes tau day is his birthday, feels conflicted
< 1331684514 653046 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 30 miles per gallon -> rods per hogshead < 1331684525 548009 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warning: undefined symbol "per". \ Warning: undefined symbol "per". \ Warning: undefined symbol "per". \ Warning: undefined symbol "per". \ Warning: undefined symbol "per". \ 1999996/13125 (approx. 152.3806476190476) < 1331684529 934186 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1331684531 187651 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ < 1331684541 280382 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 30 miles/gallon -> rods/hogshead < 1331684550 212353 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :377999244/625 (exactly 604798.7904) < 1331684555 787655 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 1 planck length -> lightcenturies < 1331684564 378552 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warning: undefined symbol "length". \ Unknown symbol "lightcenturies" \ Warning: undefined symbol "length". \ Warning: undefined symbol "lightcenturies". \ Unconvertable expression: \ 1 m^2 s^-1 kg (angular_momentum) length (undefined symbol) -> lightcenturies (undefined symbol) < 1331684565 170563 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :plancklength < 1331684568 800797 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1331684573 302660 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're multiplying planck by length < 1331684576 1231 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or l_P < 1331684578 389222 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheesh < 1331684581 293611 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 1 plancklength -> lightyears < 1331684591 244046 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.7083801957597206401e-51 < 1331684649 82642 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* oerjan suddenly realizes tau day is his birthday, feels conflicted < 1331684650 816431 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: :D < 1331684655 26703 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 1 year -> planktimes < 1331684664 924829 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown symbol "planktimes" \ Warning: undefined symbol "planktimes". \ Unconvertable expression: \ 3.1556925974678400e+7 s (time) -> planktimes (undefined symbol) < 1331684669 918361 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :>: ( < 1331684712 351125 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.225.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :'frink 1 year -> planktime < 1331684714 521091 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink planktime = 10 years; 1 year -> "planktime" < 1331684719 471780 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1331684720 433577 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink planktime = 10 years; 1 year -> "planktimes" < 1331684725 404103 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.099999999999999999999 planktime < 1331684725 566124 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :was trying to show off the automatic pluralisation < 1331684730 510149 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown symbol "planktimes" \ Warning: undefined symbol "planktimes". \ Unconvertable expression: \ 3.1556925974678400e+7 s (time) -> planktimes < 1331684734 576291 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops < 1331684735 959542 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :failed horribly < 1331684744 349529 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been a while, as they say < 1331684758 974169 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been a plank < 1331684771 617610 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1331684784 975656 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.225.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Light must have gotten a lot slower for the plank time to be that long. < 1331684810 665101 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 1 gausss < 1331684820 602948 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/10000 (exactly 1.0e-4) s^-2 kg A^-1 (magnetic_flux_density) < 1331684820 765067 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: Have you *seen* a plank? < 1331684822 203128 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :They hardly move. < 1331684840 563828 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Gausssssssssnake. < 1331684925 323805 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how Frink uses base units. < 1331684958 691519 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :by dose is ruddig :( < 1331684970 526220 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 30 miles per gallon -> "m^-2" < 1331684981 103833 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warning: undefined symbol "per". \ Warning: undefined symbol "per". \ Unconvertable expression: \ 17847743385087/97656250000 (approx. 182.76089226329088) m^4 (unknown unit type) per (undefined symbol) -> m^-2 < 1331684986 423940 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blah < 1331684989 370170 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 30 miles/gallon -> "m^-2" < 1331684998 881837 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :1440000000000/112903 (approx. 1.275431122290816e7) m^-2 < 1331685006 372116 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yaaay. < 1331685030 865368 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :arcanesentiment has had no posts for over 6 months :( < 1331685060 988978 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :annoying VHDL feature: it doesn't allow __ in a variable name, compilers enforce this < 1331685072 626234 :cswords_!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1331685081 606693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what sane reason is there to ban __ inside variable names? so that it can safely be used as a separator in name mangling rather than using length prefixes? < 1331685088 362079 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :__internal_use_names < 1331685098 502099 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: normally you ban a prefix for that < 1331685104 284063 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not something that can be put anywhere inside the name < 1331685116 195230 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fwiw, my Verity compiler uses leading 0 on internal use names, as names can't normally start with a digit) < 1331685268 7950 :cswords!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1331685274 265170 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, this ain't C. < 1331685315 512235 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: why do you need internal names? < 1331685335 347738 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: stuff generated by desugaring, mostly < 1331685349 713036 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that means you're doing it wrong :( < 1331685351 22003 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, one of the keywords ("export") works by generating a variable behind the scenes ("00export") < 1331685355 553372 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1331685363 485313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, the resulting variables have to be called something in the VHDL code! < 1331685372 899168 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, Tektur creates [[graph]] the day after I considered doing so < 1331685378 13244 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I guess it is C. :P < 1331685378 860282 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :only my article would have made sense < 1331685454 124288 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: we try to let the user's variable names get all the way through into the generated code < 1331685463 852032 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :partly this is so that the linker works, partly it's to make things easier to debug < 1331685534 948601 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I didn't disagree with that < 1331685554 565913 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this means that when extra variables are added, they need names too < 1331685597 119206 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that you're adding extra variables < 1331685728 153336 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is variables in the functional programming sense < 1331685756 124779 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so here's a problem for you: suppose you have the following code: f(x;x); f(x||x) < 1331685763 121790 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, I don't mean that < 1331685770 120209 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(\x.x;x); f(\x.x||x) < 1331685779 992756 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, the two arguments to f don't have compatible signatures < 1331685780 154566 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/variables/names/ then < 1331685796 452921 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, you have it backwards; a "name" is kind-of like a pointer or a reference < 1331685805 315717 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not talking in verityspeak < 1331685818 742468 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :computer science has a whole load of widely-defined terms < 1331685822 951121 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't just redefine them at random! < 1331685829 861327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"name" in Algol-like languages is like a reference < 1331685832 998216 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine < 1331685834 474606 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :go on < 1331685859 991808 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this needs to be desugared into f(\x1.\x2.x1;x1); f(\x1.\x2.x1||x2) < 1331685871 707267 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the first throws away x2) < 1331685888 28501 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, replace < 1331685889 844956 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :type VarName = String < 1331685890 315140 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :with < 1331685905 942821 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :data VarName = VarName String Integer < 1331685911 125957 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter is the number (1,2,etc.) < 1331685915 96696 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: now, suppose I do f(\x.x;x); f(\x.x||x); f(g) < 1331685920 350792 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and g has the same type as \x.x;x < 1331685937 377200 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, in that case I can change g to \j.g or whatever < 1331685956 594495 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, still works, I need to invent a fresh name for the lambda that's put around g < 1331685961 239341 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in your terminology < 1331685975 241422 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think your real problem is that you have a desugaring step that goes from language L to language L. < 1331685975 738061 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I get f(\x1.\x2.x1;x1); f(\x1.\x2.x1||x2); f(\j.g) < 1331685994 571169 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You want a step from L to L', where L' is more suited to this purpose in a way that includes not having to make up names and wrap things in lambdas. < 1331685995 146385 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, it goes from one language to a slightly different one < 1331686007 137587 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but you're not exploiting the opportunity to make them different enough. < 1331686024 575361 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: anyway, the \j.g /goes through to the final hardware/ < 1331686030 887742 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can identify the individual wires that make up j < 1331686036 786217 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they need names < 1331686052 8209 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not necessarily < 1331686058 814630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, they need names in the VHDL code < 1331686058 978406 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could represent it as a nameless graph structure or the like < 1331686074 294893 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :VHDL doesn't let you have wires that don't have names < 1331686074 456943 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :really, I would never write a source code transformation on something with explicit string variable names < 1331686080 481751 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's the backend's problem < 1331686088 965396 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I wrote the backend too! < 1331686102 158364 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think I should generate the arbitrary names, which are different from all existing names, in the backend rather than frontend? < 1331686110 596703 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how that would modify the problem at all < 1331686119 18597 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you should eliminate names entirely, tbh < 1331686142 242835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then I wouldn't have them the same in the final VHDL program as the original user's prorgam < 1331686143 692369 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*program < 1331686156 998361 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mangled, there's an s/_/0_0/g and a suffix to preserve case-sensitivity) < 1331686159 244899 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I don't necessarily care, but you can easily fix that < 1331686172 54206 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just have some graph nodes labelled and others not, or the like < 1331686212 185364 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you also have to allow for the problem that such graphs aren't easily represented with ADTs < 1331686219 367557 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the most common way to do so is /to give the nodes arbitrary names/ < 1331686223 973408 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're not even gaining anything < 1331686237 277579 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that's an implementation detail of the graph library < 1331686249 855196 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, I'm more likely to use a de bruijn form than a graph < 1331686279 766295 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must stop asking you for advice :) < 1331686285 56936 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how's your own Verity compiler/interp getting on? < 1331686308 576020 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't coded more than one thing in weeks < 1331686320 727800 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch, that seems /really/ out of character for you < 1331686332 527993 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I don't mean I've coded that thing throughout those weeks < 1331686336 471500 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just I've only written one thing in weeks < 1331686345 182601 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :either way < 1331686433 439488 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :problems with school, or something like that? < 1331686443 673561 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I've just had nothing to code :( < 1331686470 168080 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even a Verity compiler? ;) < 1331686479 236857 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1D509.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1331686482 13396 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you wanted to write one with a less insane license < 1331686488 139803 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page < 1331686491 610257 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you presumably wouldn't be targeting hardware, so no need for SCC transforms, etc < 1331686505 350864 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should tell em we're planning on doing a featured languages thing even though it's not quite what e's talking about... < 1331686523 554255 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes; also, we've already settled on such a list, haven't we? < 1331686531 2703 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe so < 1331686532 93002 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BF, Befunge, INTERCAL, Unlambda, Underload < 1331686535 594807 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :did I miss one? < 1331686536 489564 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1331686542 564091 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the most interesting possible" < 1331686550 957943 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd go for befunge, unlambda, underload, ///, BCT or something < 1331686563 533603 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :BF and INTERCAL aren't really astonishingly interesting < 1331686568 689538 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, hm < 1331686578 777931 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we'd really want to show off all corners of esolang design < 1331686584 703082 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Malbolge? < 1331686589 505883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some missing genres there, e.g. we'd want a thematic language < 1331686591 550917 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :RocketJSquirrel: good point < 1331686594 574232 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :preferably a /good/ one < 1331686600 567649 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1331686603 865744 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shakespeare or Chef or Haifu or something like that < 1331686620 617361 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1331686626 896337 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be nice to have a page with "exceptional examples of esolang design" for esolang-designers-to-be < 1331686631 174608 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it would even dissuade BF derivatives < 1331686643 298061 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead we'd get Befunge derivatives! < 1331686644 796151 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray! < 1331686681 841813 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would also proffer Kipple and some OISC. < 1331686695 563795 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge is not a language that takes well to derivatices < 1331686698 9147 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*derivatives < 1331686702 735369 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be an OISC there, indeed < 1331686703 715298 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck, befunge, intercal, unlambda, underload, ///, bct, malbolge, shakespeare|chef|haifu, kipple, subleq? < 1331686710 11791 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's 11 < 1331686721 225702 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose BCT isn't all that vital to a newcomer < 1331686730 280722 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's much closer to a CA than an esolang < 1331686734 925741 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there's a corner of esolangs with several examples that I don't think has a name, but it stores all its data in a queue or stack or something like that, and is reasonably imperative < 1331686738 942730 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say BCT isn't an esolang, although it's a "language" of esointerest. < 1331686744 720360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Fractran? < 1331686758 890564 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fractran wasn't even designed as an esolang < 1331686770 470600 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : also, there's a corner of esolangs with several examples that I don't think has a name, but it stores all its data in a queue or stack or something like that, and is reasonably imperative < 1331686772 168741 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :FALSE-likes? < 1331686775 705484 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but there was an equivalent language that was < 1331686783 811426 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bag < 1331686784 611104 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: FALSE is a little atypical of it < 1331686793 433435 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking more along the lines of Sceql < 1331686796 674398 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1331686805 771628 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there more examples than {Qdeql, Sceql}? < 1331686809 172028 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(FALSE is in there, but is an outlier) < 1331686822 884732 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought so, but now I'm having problems thinking of them < 1331686824 359471 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to the wiki! < 1331686852 534200 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably half of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Stack-based < 1331686883 552959 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Piet worth consideration? It's really only interesting in its encoding, but still .. < 1331686885 324196 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Piet counts < 1331686899 516729 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses an unusual source code form, but computationally it's just like that < 1331686909 405310 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :RocketJSquirrel is talking about for this hypothetical page < 1331686925 524820 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1331686930 677099 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I know, it was a timing coincidence < 1331686935 177991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't see his comment while I was writing mine < 1331686938 701773 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, Schrodilang. < 1331686986 955838 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, that's amazing < 1331687010 383427 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :RocketJSquirrel: r u srs < 1331687014 634255 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No X-D < 1331687024 656718 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will not proffer any of my own languages in seriousness X-D < 1331687053 182920 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you made that < 1331687396 390109 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1331687431 404868 :fungot!~fungot@a91-152-37-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1331687482 226496 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, remember that one-dimensional MMO we were discussing ages ago? < 1331687486 59121 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastlog one-dimensional MMO < 1331687507 306204 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1331687510 443475 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but go on < 1331687518 643204 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1331688457 335261 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly best dimensionality for an MMO. < 1331688468 394385 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: goooon < 1331688470 265037 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* < 1331688474 801579 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :g oooooon < 1331688476 785272 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :goooooooo n < 1331688495 132241 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I can't remember many of the details either < 1331688497 360007 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why I asked < 1331688508 553894 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember that it was going to give some kind of main advantage for being online constantly < 1331688530 709010 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some mechanic involving swapping with someone, and you could cancel a swap that someone was trying to do to you manually within 5 minutes or so < 1331688948 495103 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :DANGIT < 1331688960 933669 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was looking at HPMOR on TV Tropes, and uncovering spoilers < 1331688967 613532 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uncovered a spoiler for the new chapter. < 1331689310 414945 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like it's that hard to read, it's only longer than the goddamned Yudkowsky sequences. :P < 1331689359 83325 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1331689490 345511 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, I have previously read HPMOR < 1331689497 394360 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember much of it though. < 1331689701 233134 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ty < 1331689763 708755 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : what < 1331690008 268916 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: thank you < 1331690083 250637 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1331690161 450685 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, tswett monqy UPDATE < 1331690207 771522 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dankes. < 1331690308 962155 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: thanks for thanking me < 1331690327 770834 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: thanks < 1331690335 238883 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: for your comment on the typo on reddit < 1331690370 100257 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, OK < 1331690380 138521 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was your program? I don't have everyone here's reddit usernames memorized < 1331690387 216592 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you're welcome < 1331690410 328492 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, I'm not sure if a recursive function with no recursive call is even legal in Verity < 1331690411 807218 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check < 1331690412 230583 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: indeed. me = psygnisfive < 1331690449 714727 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ./gosc -S /tmp/t.ia < 1331690451 31327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/tmp/t.ia: recursion in input program cannot be converted: recursive argument f not used in fix(\f.c_skip$0) [line 1 character 0 - line 1 character 11] < 1331690458 177336 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed it isn't < 1331690572 168202 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: thanks < 1331690614 624058 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly, the error message for something like "fix \f.\x.{f(f(x))}" is much worse, as the compiler can't figure out exactly where the error happens, just that it happens < 1331690632 326745 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I must write an article about Verity programming some day; the semantics are almost eso in some places, e.g. that line isn't obviously wrong) < 1331690647 630620 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: link to verity's site? < 1331690666 635979 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.veritygos.org/ < 1331690672 752620 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which in Firefox, at least to me, is an infinite redirect loop < 1331690693 404290 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also Epiphany, so it's not a result of refusing cookies < 1331690695 839783 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, that's impressive < 1331690697 50522 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks, can you be less helpful now? < 1331690703 858663 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could link me to a gopher URI, say < 1331690722 378930 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ curl -I http://www.veritygos.org/ < 1331690722 540889 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :HTTP/1.1 301 Moved Permanently < 1331690722 541094 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cache-Control: private < 1331690722 541196 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Content-Length: 0 < 1331690722 541294 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Location: http://www.veritygos.org < 1331690725 694973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the old name, https://sites.google.com/site/thegeometryofsynthesis/ is still working < 1331690731 607385 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone needs firing < 1331690751 77889 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: have you tried to convince the lawyers to let you license it under something more reasonable any more? < 1331690768 691667 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : That link is currently a redirect to itself. < 1331690779 801676 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, because my boss agrees with them, and he's not worth arguing with < 1331690787 218197 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides the license is reasonable, for what it's intended for < 1331690813 70049 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it makes quite a statement < 1331690817 126483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like the website version of a fixed point < 1331690848 432568 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :BART has an official unofficial map: http://www.bart.gov/schedules/developers/maps.aspx < 1331690916 831838 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie JOIN :#esoteric < 1331690919 38774 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you said verity's syntax is documented; where is that? < 1331690922 821898 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what license are the libraries under? < 1331690927 542015 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a file grammar.txt inside the documentation < 1331690931 346317 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and permissive, it's all in the EULA < 1331690975 630629 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't read the EULA, much less agreed to it < 1331690976 280615 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"(e) Directory Examples can be used, copied, reproduced and distributed without restriction." < 1331690986 687618 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, I didn't agree to that, so I guess I can't < 1331691009 697906 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, they forgot "modified" < 1331691018 799548 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot? < 1331691021 880329 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am sure it was intentional < 1331691024 524489 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1331691074 211579 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many library files are there? < 1331691109 793505 :cheater_!~cheater@ip-80-226-24-11.vodafone-net.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1331691143 323492 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ find lib -name '*.vhd' | wc -l \ 5 \ $ find lib -name '*.v' | wc -l \ 2 \ $ find include -name '*.ia' | wc -l \ 4 < 1331691151 802522 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on your definition < 1331691159 517542 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're planning to write more < 1331691171 81752 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maybe support .ml libraries for the interpreter < 1331691188 357651 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thing that annoys me; OCaml's compiler is not available via the OCaml libraries < 1331691197 439179 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's written in OCaml, there's no reason it /shouldn't/ be < 1331691198 980395 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :my definition is "how much I have to rewrite" < 1331691206 182419 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :can I convince you to not write any more so I don't have to rewrite them? < 1331691226 236248 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't convince me not to do my job :) < 1331691233 989930 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, I'm not sure how many more or less my job will require me to write < 1331691256 371087 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however however, some of them are platform-specific to platforms you probably don't own, and some are very simple < 1331691284 704097 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing not described in the distribution is the VHDL/Verilog API, which is important for writing libraries in languages other than Verity < 1331691292 366032 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is described in our papers, though < 1331691294 56419 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, there's nothing stopping a Verity implementation doing sharing, right? < 1331691299 594526 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from the naming schemes < 1331691301 255898 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hmm, it's impure < 1331691303 230876 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there is < 1331691310 939408 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sharing" = what, in this context? < 1331691317 206831 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :call-by-need < 1331691354 135905 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, let f = \x.x;x in new x:=2 in f(x := !x + 1); print(x) < 1331691376 837981 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(whitespace is irrelevant except for separating alphanumeric tokens, as you probably guessed already) < 1331691378 694899 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, what license does grammar.txt have? < 1331691418 660549 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, huh < 1331691421 714301 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the license defines Documentation < 1331691426 546228 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then there are no license terms relating to it < 1331691439 889828 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful < 1331691445 89162 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe that means that its license is all rights reserved, by default < 1331691449 703059 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not a lawyer so don't know for certain < 1331691475 110190 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I can implement Verity without agreeing to terms I find unacceptable, then, unless you retranscribe the grammar for me < 1331691510 771608 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: if you read the grammar off a website, would that be unacceptable? < 1331691531 343592 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that (despite what Oracle are claiming in court), implementing an API is not a derivative work of that API < 1331691540 710655 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be fine, assuming that I don't have to agree to an EULA < 1331691563 265345 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not worried about creating a derivative work; I just don't want to agree to the EULA, and am not convinced a court would accept my argument that I didn't when downloading my copy of gosc.tgz < 1331691571 421654 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"By installing, downloading, and/or using the Software, You agree to the terms and conditions of this Agreement." < 1331691583 979309 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, hmm, Software apparently includes Documentation < 1331691591 262304 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't mean anything < 1331691594 503962 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hmm, I see < 1331691596 217504 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :who comes up with these definitions? < 1331691618 744240 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe that reading a grammar definition on a website can cause me to agree to an EULA < 1331691638 698 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, OK, the license terms apply to the Software as a whole, including the documentation < 1331691656 4569 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: perhaps I can persuade them to put the grammar on the website, then < 1331691672 232543 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :prediction: they'll put it behind an EULA < 1331691676 471574 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1331691683 305409 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they didn't put the quick-start guide behind a EULA < 1331691696 830618 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, why can't you just explain the grammar to me on IRC? any grammar more than 500 chars isn't worth using :) < 1331691716 842672 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's behind a download link, though, for reasons I don't understand; but it's a Markdown file with a .txt extension, because I passed it off to them as plain text) < 1331691797 864418 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1331691805 294314 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :operator precedence is a pain to describe over IRC < 1331691816 757225 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to notation that would simplify describing it being used in the language itself < 1331691826 977731 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I'll just explain in operator precedence order < 1331691833 66587 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :starting at the loosest < 1331691878 966599 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate operator precedence < 1331691905 876327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, loosest is lambda (\a.b), scoped binding (let a = b in c, which is sugar for (\a.c)(b)), fixedpoint (fix \a.b); fixedpoint has the same semantics as fix in haskell, except it must take a literal lambda as its argument < 1331691922 787757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and although those are all equal, I don't think there's any possible circumstance in which it would matter anyway < 1331691936 607134 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :next is pair formation (a,b) < 1331691939 128434 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, "Adding two numbers is O(log n)" I thought arithmetic was generally taken to be O(1) < 1331691943 806937 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not by me! < 1331691950 348150 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The category of programming languages, where arrows are compilers. Discuss. < 1331691965 699197 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: seems pretty categorical to me < 1331691974 320105 :tswett!~tswett@171.64.42.221 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Verily. < 1331691997 981538 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after that is the creation of memory cells, "new a in b", which causes a to be a memory location throughout b (and then cease to exist again) < 1331692009 816573 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, "a" is a little vague there < 1331692014 96471 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see foo(128) in trees.ia < 1331692014 496606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's an identifier < 1331692019 673347 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo(128) is an identifier? < 1331692020 592483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's array creation < 1331692024 95719 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1331692031 250705 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is something else that we haven't added to our grammar documentation < 1331692041 545098 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's helpful. < 1331692048 503877 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and specifically, serial array creation (an array where you can only access one element at a time) < 1331692057 756503 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, whether things can happen simultaneously or not is critical to understanding Verity < 1331692063 977279 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, does that not apply to all arrays? < 1331692073 90738 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1331692073 419153 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the only sort of array we've implemented so far < 1331692085 348224 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not convinced I need to care about the simultaneous thing for an implementation on standard computers < 1331692086 56603 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :do I? < 1331692089 716489 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're planning parallel arrays too, with syntax probably a[128], which would be sugar for defining 128 different variables < 1331692098 871331 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, unless you plan to reject incorrect programs < 1331692112 129795 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interpreter works by passing the code through the compiler's type-checker, then throwing away the output ;) < 1331692130 824328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except for inferring things like bitwidths) < 1331692159 508386 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rejecting incorrect programs would be nice < 1331692178 668009 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, after that, is a || b, which is parallel composition; a and b must be allowed to be executed simultaneously, obviously < 1331692191 259474 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then a;b, sequential composition (i.e. "do a then b") < 1331692200 369522 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :both || and ; take two commands as arguments and return a command < 1331692212 598826 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and a command is a 0-bit integer with possible side effects) < 1331692230 367671 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then come the control structures: "while a do b" and "if a then b else c" < 1331692252 758366 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this language is too big :( < 1331692257 514881 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first argument is a 1-bit integer; while takes a command as its loop body, if allows any base type in the then and else fields < 1331692258 239802 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't while/if be just primitives? < 1331692261 869544 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's call-by-name < 1331692263 208606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's meant to be practical < 1331692270 276696 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they are, but there's syntax for them < 1331692275 22353 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to stop people having to write whiledo(a)(b) < 1331692282 654922 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that just means your function call syntax is ugly < 1331692301 366594 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but go on < 1331692327 406768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it actually gets desugared into an ffi call internally, (c_while:(exp$1*com)->com) a b < 1331692339 914801 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the actual implementation of while is done by the FFI < 1331692350 103963 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then is assignment, a := b < 1331692350 880444 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this foo$7 stuff i see in trees.ia? < 1331692354 904625 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok never mind keep going < 1331692362 384417 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's really really tightly binding < 1331692376 974903 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and part of the identifier syntax, at that < 1331692397 473377 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, never mind, just keep going < 1331692432 390313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after that comes arithmetic primitives, | ^ (left-associative), &, == (non-associative), < > (non-associative), << >> +>> (left-associative), + - (left-associative), * < 1331692437 219277 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :RIP Encyclopædia Britannica, you will not be missed < 1331692445 830558 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other languages to go to the best-of page: IRP < 1331692448 775865 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all have the same meaning as in C, except that >> is unsigned rightshift and +>> is signed rightshift < 1331692474 570816 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i.e. >> fills the left-over bit with 0, +>> fills it with the sign bit of the original number, like >>> and >> in Java) < 1331692493 892078 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :RocketJSquirrel: And Glass? < 1331692494 879267 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also a +< and +> for signed comparisons, which aren't in this grammar file for some reason; < and > are unsigned < 1331692501 29197 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw < 1331692510 368821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after that is ~, unary bit-complement (the same as in C) < 1331692513 142209 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you know, Haskell solved this operator syntax problem excellently. < 1331692515 460359 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after that is !, variable dereference < 1331692539 595111 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :excellently? < 1331692561 662105 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: better than ais523 solved it < 1331692572 167554 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this verity thing < 1331692578 28345 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then is function call, "a(b)" (can also be written as "a b" if b is sufficiently simple; IIRC it must be a constant or identifier, possibly with a cast) < 1331692614 554980 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then tightest of all is bitwidth conversion, a$$n where n is a literal integer, which discards high bits or zero-extends < 1331692622 684157 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and likewise, a+$$n discards high bits or sign-extends) < 1331692629 775763 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am really not looking forward to implementing this parser < 1331692632 668406 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also put various type assertions on things < 1331692656 749452 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :examples would be :com, :exp$5, :(com -> com) < 1331692669 968349 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :single-dollar is a bitwidth assertion, which can be used on types or numerical constants < 1331692674 529397 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 0$8 means an eight-bit zero < 1331692680 3343 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and exp$5 a five-bit integer < 1331692684 536282 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :exp$0 is equivalent to com < 1331692703 351638 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 0$0 can also be written as "skip" < 1331692719 988302 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unary minus always requires parens, incidentally < 1331692725 765507 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to distinguish between a-1 and a(-1) < 1331692746 909240 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, that's about it, syntactically < 1331692754 784665 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also a lambda that works on tuples, \(a,b).x < 1331692769 138538 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I gave in and looked at grammar.txt < 1331692792 664344 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the difference between \a.\b.x and \(a,b).x is that the second asserts that a and b can be used simultaneously, the first asserts that they can't be < 1331692793 198148 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a vaguely less agonising way to present this mess of a syntax :P < 1331692807 691661 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's a more useful question: what's the type system? < 1331692817 709865 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there are three different type systems… < 1331692834 315726 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION 's desire to implement Verity over time, graphed: \
< 1331692835 681943 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :programs are written in ICA, but must be valid in SCC < 1331692846 376222 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then that's converted to SCI for use in hardware < 1331692851 74400 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1331692859 679553 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could try to describe them over IRC, or just link you to the papers defining them < 1331692931 473578 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter will probably save you time, since I can not read them more efficiently than I can not read your explanations of them < 1331692937 589923 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :here, http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~drg/papers/popl11.pdf < 1331692957 342308 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that describes not only all the type systems used, but all the algorithms we use to convert between them < 1331692994 310864 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and it describes the resulting circuitry too < 1331693003 5439 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except in the case of recursion, which we hadn't worked out at the time that paper was written < 1331693009 786466 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if i just skipped the type system? ;) < 1331693017 90571 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is verity and why is it like this < 1331693031 506254 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, then you wouldn't be rejecting invalid programs, but it'd still work fine on the valid ones, mostly < 1331693034 598950 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for bitwidth inference < 1331693079 493320 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: ais523&co.'s impure, call-by-name higher-order functional language < 1331693083 330134 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :designed to compile to hardware < 1331693094 309889 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, print(~4) implies that the 4 is a 32-bit 4, at least if you do an "import " < 1331693110 665111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because print.vhd defines print as being of type exp$32->com < 1331693125 667589 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course the bitwidth of the 4 will affect what its complement is < 1331693201 702223 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if ais523 has monqy on ignore or something
< 1331693207 478642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't < 1331693212 53880 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just you answered faster than I did < 1331693219 365443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: I wanted to call it ALGOL-11 < 1331693222 778663 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they wouldn't let me < 1331693236 399396 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ALGOL-12 by now I guess, but 11 sounds nicer < 1331693276 352415 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: he asked earlier, too < 1331693303 243545 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is very much an Algol dialect, though, semantically < 1331693314 444655 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the syntax is different but based off similar principles < 1331693332 680026 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh, there's also {} in the syntax, which is sugar for ():com < 1331693347 480817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can write while 1 do {command; another_command} < 1331693371 837786 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the type system also has var, but it's sugar for something < 1331693396 707502 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, var$n = (exp$n*(exp$n->com)) < 1331693425 744754 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that I guess ! and := could be implemented in pure Verity, if I were so inclined < 1331693429 821890 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's no way to define operators yet < 1331693443 157543 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1331693453 675843 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and the other thing that it's easy to miss is that division doesn't exist < 1331693456 955991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we might add a library for div and mod < 1331693460 567992 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : but there's no way to define operators yet < 1331693461 61210 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: you know, Haskell solved this operator syntax problem excellently. < 1331693496 857460 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1331693498 550977 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just by interpreting any random string of characters it doesn't understand as an operator < 1331693508 975406 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's actually more complex than what we're doing at the moment < 1331693516 793167 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*string of punctuation marks < 1331693524 491043 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1331693533 638266 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a rather pov way of putting it :p < 1331693567 715836 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you'd need to get the parser to parse prio operatives (or whatever you call them, but it's called prio in algol 68) and then change the way it parsed from then on accordingly < 1331693572 176173 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you didn't like state? < 1331693580 928823 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(^ both nonsequitur and strawman) < 1331693633 48363 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how many 1-pass compilers are there? < 1331693639 859051 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I already said I hate operator precedence < 1331693647 696126 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no, the parser doesn't have to do that at all < 1331693789 114175 :ion!ion@heh.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1331693805 88226 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's very hard to convince people to use a language where a+b*c doesn't do what they expect < 1331693822 124342 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"looking vaguely familiar" was the main criterion we used to design Verity's syntax < 1331693830 194691 :ion!ion@heh.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1331693839 29128 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I added {} for ():com simply because I wanted to use them for while statements < 1331693852 929043 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it looked weird with () < 1331693885 407447 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION isn't sure "convincing people to use Verity" is a real problem ais523 faces :P
< 1331693900 110071 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't face it /personally/ < 1331693911 934475 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I was asked to help the people/person out whose job it was < 1331694064 579250 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION evaporates
< 1331694152 805964 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: anyway, why does the language need a built-in notion of bitwidths? < 1331694167 87706 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :concession to hardware, where everything needs a set bitwidth < 1331694197 754099 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"4-bit integer" and "1024-bit integer" are completely different types, the type system should reflect that < 1331694213 772906 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: # < 1331694219 695654 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is a new macro meaning "you misinterpreted my previous comment") < 1331694231 783251 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm asking why it needs anything other than bits at all as primitive < 1331694241 108530 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION installs the PinkiePie fix
< 1331694243 519517 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why arithmetic on n-tuples of bits should be built-in < 1331694273 349387 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: because it's an operation that people will want to do a lot? and because it makes sense to be able to access the bits of an integer in parallel with each other? < 1331694294 230516 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(exp$1 * exp$1) is not the same type as (exp$2) in terms of the operations you can do o nit < 1331694295 708545 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*on it < 1331694307 134938 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the first is a promise that you won't access the two bits simultaneously < 1331694314 226485 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: people want to do lots of operations a lot, that doesn't mean they have to be axiomatic! < 1331694354 697341 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, OK, I misused n-tuple < 1331694360 873662 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need a parallel tuple type then < 1331694378 442311 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really, that'd complicate the type system considerably for no real gain < 1331694398 138689 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the same time as simplifying it (by removing bitwidths) < 1331694399 574530 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tupling is serial, currying is parallel, is the whole heart of the language < 1331694410 874927 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(c_seq:com*com->com) (c_par:com->com->com) < 1331694428 217196 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, you'd need to add empty tuples as well, or else make com a separate type from exp$0 < 1331694466 152235 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would do that anyway (making com a separate type), although empty tuples are good too, so might as well rename com to () or such < 1331694468 688093 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: also, you'd need a sufficiently smart compiler to even produce remotely efficient hardware < 1331694482 750849 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, why? I don't see why you wouldn't be able to translate it back efficiently < 1331694491 234152 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's possible to force individual parts of a tuple < 1331694498 860118 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the hardware would need to reflect that < 1331694504 518853 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's say parallel tupling is &, why can't (exp & exp & exp) just translate to exp$3? < 1331694514 711513 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine a program like (\(a,b).a)(print(4),print(5)) < 1331694537 965776 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, stop overloading syntax :) < 1331694540 23316 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or (\(a&b).a)(print(4)&print(5)) with & as parallel tuple rather than bitwise & < 1331694547 230934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I didn't overload syntax, did I? < 1331694548 604794 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is ^ used? < 1331694550 747221 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, what do you think I overloaded < 1331694553 188260 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, bitwise XOR < 1331694555 381928 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you overloaded (a,b) < 1331694560 886242 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... is @ used? < 1331694562 255013 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a,b) means a tuple b < 1331694565 574583 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, @ isn't used < 1331694574 655639 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, the type is (a @ b) with constructor (a @ b) then, go on < 1331694582 208523 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what type does print(4) have? < 1331694586 417141 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :com < 1331694596 743719 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :print itself has type exp$32->com < 1331694611 817961 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because some definite value needs to be picked for separate compilation, and 32 is nicely sized for most applications of print < 1331694613 312362 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(aka (exp@exp@exp@...) -> com) < 1331694616 923861 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1331694620 527997 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so, let's pick little-endian < 1331694631 128665 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(\(a&b).a) is, in your current language, just (\x.x&1) < 1331694634 226393 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, (exp@exp@…) would allow you to force individual bits independently < 1331694641 768594 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, that's the whole point < 1331694644 958529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have different side effects on different bits < 1331694663 266368 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would mean 32 potential entry points < 1331694676 597974 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be rather nastily inefficient for hardware that's O(number of entry points) < 1331694682 649478 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, that's the whole point < 1331694712 765052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: OK, so you have a parallel tuple that forces you to force every element at once? < 1331694731 600692 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, this concept actually exists in call-by-push-value, it has two types of tuples for this reason < 1331694737 927004 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Isn't exp$32 a parallel 32-tuple that forces you to force every element at once? < 1331694767 635146 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, no, it's not implemented like that, but it is equivalent to that < 1331694784 12731 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought you were being incredulous at the idea < 1331694788 786694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: anyway, this type system doesn't even make sense now, what's ((com*com)@com) meant to mean? < 1331694790 724120 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry if i misinterpreted < 1331694792 938735 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(com*com) has two entry points < 1331694805 115148 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so which of them gets forced when you force the whole thing? < 1331694817 228332 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, give me a second to try and understand your silly language :) < 1331694832 27536 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this isn't even my language any more, it's basic call-by-name semantics < 1331694851 943306 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but I don't see a problem, in terms of call-by-name semantics < 1331694857 639535 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :forcing a tuple forces the outer tuple but neither of the elements < 1331694866 454332 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how the non-strict languages I know work < 1331694869 981835 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHNF and all that < 1331694883 134761 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are your tuples unlifted or something fancy like that < 1331694888 443247 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh, in Verity, you force individual tuple elements, forcing the whole tuple isn't something that makes sense < 1331694898 41462 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and likewise, it's impossible to sequence a tuple with something, seq only works on base types < 1331694898 203418 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it _is_ your language :) < 1331694900 272594 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.225.249 NICK :MSleep < 1331694911 423518 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, presumably it forces both, then < 1331694916 999360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's that way in all the literature for Algol-like languages < 1331694947 153339 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, that means you identify _|_ and (_|_,_|_), right? < 1331694950 880644 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: think of com as being like a monad action, if it helps; that's one valid way to implement it < 1331694952 168173 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's an unlifted product type < 1331694982 619714 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: (_|_, _|_) would be a reasonable way to define _|_ at a product type, yes < 1331694993 10436 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, so all you're saying is that your product type is unlifted < 1331694996 961817 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(whereas, e.g. Haskell's is lifted) < 1331695010 490814 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: then, I don't see what's wrong with forcing both sides of it < 1331695019 170804 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because (_|_, 0) is also a legal value < 1331695020 19659 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the reasonable implementation, IMO, since (,) is clearly strict in both of its arguments < 1331695025 520880 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's fine < 1331695035 299532 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right, (,) isn't strict < 1331695038 74245 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1331695043 258202 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that just means that (_|_, 0)@anything happens to be _|_ < 1331695046 874690 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of things are _|_, what's the problem? < 1331695059 576908 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is impossible to define (,) in Verity, except in terms of itself < 1331695083 456771 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i retracted my comment about (,) < 1331695098 956926 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so which /order/ does it force the two sides of (print 0, print 1)@skip? < 1331695122 162835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't force them simultaneously, , introduces a serial tuple < 1331695155 56672 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like pointing out that I didn't actually mean this was the only acceptable solution, btw, and had another possible one in mind, but < 1331695157 772482 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: left first, why not < 1331695188 967989 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fail to see how this type system is less complicated than the one with a primitive fixed-width integer type :) < 1331695216 25413 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : I feel like pointing out that I didn't actually mean this was the only acceptable solution, btw, and had another possible one in mind, but < 1331695216 362252 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, the other reason things like + are primitive in Verity, is that you can't define polymorphic functions < 1331695228 214660 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's another broken thing about verity ;) < 1331695261 699907 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :from a semantic level, if you write print(3+4), the compiler will generate a 32-bit + for you < 1331695264 601916 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and use that < 1331695277 967311 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to prevent a huge amount of duplication, it uses generics in the generated VHDL < 1331695310 96533 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, so you just want C++ template style generics < 1331695313 111182 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*polymorphism < 1331695317 459346 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1331695318 284123 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's perfectly OK, but you should expose it to your users too < 1331695322 549646 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is, in the FFI < 1331695327 457077 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not in the FFI :) < 1331695334 319499 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but + gets desugared into an FFI call < 1331695392 27691 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that proper C++-style templates would make a reasonable addition to the language, though; they're mentioned in one of our papers < 1331695400 866373 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not /that/ C++-style, that would be insane by definition < 1331695403 194661 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the basic idea < 1331695412 236660 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can look identical to ML/haskell-style polymorphism at the language level < 1331695433 317036 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only thing you'd lose, expressivity-wise, is complicated polymorphic recursion < 1331695482 952998 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :polymorphism only over bitwidths would be so much easier < 1331695497 657809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly because VHDL doesn't support polymorphism except for array bounds < 1331695513 30940 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION mumbles distaste at implementation-oriented language design
< 1331695533 839693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, it'd be nice if a parallel array was just a template that took a compile-time param and returned a variable < 1331695545 887958 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm seriously thinking about this < 1331695584 16743 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right now, you can't even write generic data structures in verity, right? < 1331695599 774156 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't even write recursive data structures < 1331695615 138045 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except by rolling your own malloc-alike, or by implementing them as functions (which is very inefficient for most practical uses) < 1331695616 664609 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure you can, you have a trees implementation :P < 1331695622 374608 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you saw that? < 1331695629 672819 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is available on the website < 1331695633 67257 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's done with a roll-your-own-malloc, and not a particularly efficient one at that < 1331695635 100203 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't write it < 1331695638 832928 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why I asked about arrays < 1331695642 992622 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was my supervisor trying to prove a point < 1331695652 847600 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what point? < 1331695661 909169 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that hardware recursion was useful, or something < 1331695665 155687 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure myself < 1331695687 97654 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that obvious? < 1331695743 532925 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1331695756 155443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are so many restrictions on our hardware fix impl that I'm not at all convinced it's useful < 1331695765 565317 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what restrictions? < 1331695774 130834 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no parallelism anywhere near it, mostly < 1331695791 252646 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you can't nest fix inside fix; it's possible to design circuitry so you could, but it'd be much less efficient so we don't < 1331695811 727743 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, does that just mean syntactically, or does that mean in fix e, you cannot use any code that uses fix in e? < 1331695814 950136 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fix \f.\x.(f(x)||skip) cannot be implemented in hardware with the techniques we're using) < 1331695844 676327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's a semantic restriction; it's implementing syntactically into the compiler because I couldn't figure out how it worked in the type system and how to modify the compiler accordingly < 1331695859 150343 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this language sucks way more than @hwlang :( < 1331695873 811614 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we've already achieved more with it than anyone else has before < 1331695876 988432 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from pipelining < 1331695880 806438 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm working on that atm < 1331695897 303249 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the catch, btw? < 1331695906 922805 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the catch"? in what? < 1331695923 792152 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-254-165.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1331695927 498055 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i was brought up believing hardware can't do any of this, so there's clearly some deception going on :) < 1331695945 481557 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a limited recursion value, because you run out of memory for a stack after a while < 1331695957 329776 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-169.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1331695964 627714 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although instead of having a global stack, which has terrible performance by hardware standards, we have a different stack for each variable in the program < 1331695976 360602 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. new allocates stacks rather than individual memory cells < 1331695984 24304 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :dynamic scope?! < 1331696007 169909 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's done by getting all the state in the program to refer to a different location depending on the recursion depth < 1331696012 812903 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :including state in control < 1331696030 771918 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i.e. remembering which branch of the ; you're in in \x.x;x) < 1331696098 812085 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :λq.(λg.g(λx.g(qx)))(λb.(λk.((k(λu.u))(λl.((kb)(λt.(l(t skip)))))))(λv.λw.wv)) < 1331696111 688901 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :took me so long to work out that expression :) < 1331696141 846407 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that? < 1331696142 865907 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's of type (com^m -> com^n -> com)^(n^2) -> com, m <= 1 < 1331696163 4343 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue was finding an expression that had a side-condition like that < 1331696173 739489 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's SCC type < 1331696193 601498 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was hard enough proving that the type system was even decidable in the absence of polymorphism < 1331696202 508615 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is, but it's nontrivial enough to see that that we got a paper out of it < 1331696207 102341 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :together with the type system transformations < 1331696255 96044 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is arguably a deficiency of the type system, due to using (\v.\w.wv) in two unrelated contexts that just happen to have similar types < 1331696266 242560 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not convinced that ML lets you do that either, though < 1331696272 159261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Anarchy would!) < 1331696373 132256 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, is it just me or does your language have nothing to do with algol < 1331696429 501360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just you < 1331696438 27978 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its semantics are almost identical to algol 60's < 1331696452 732326 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :allowing for the difference in syntax < 1331696463 816871 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which isn't even that different; they both work on the same principle, just use different names for things < 1331696517 299640 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and algol 60 doesn't have || < 1331696522 626047 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the file extension should really be .ica rather than .ia < 1331696532 82281 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what happened was that I was using .ica and my supervisor was using .ia < 1331696540 468265 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we had to standardise on one eventually < 1331696542 987645 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, .ia looks better < 1331696555 646287 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, .ica does < 1331696564 805731 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well we can't change it /now/ :P < 1331696617 954761 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, I'm not convinced that call-by-need is compatible with hardware (the gosc site suggests it is) < 1331696640 367130 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a crazy idea that my supervisor said < 1331696642 251024 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, it involves heavy, global mutation in a concurrent setting < 1331696656 150799 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was talking to someone else, and they decided it would be worthwhile for the compiler, and might even replace pipelining < 1331696659 643182 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, you don't necessarily need the global, if you're OK with evaluation being per-thread < 1331696660 707851 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I had to tell them why they were completely wrong < 1331696665 570058 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. each thread evaluates a thunk zero or once < 1331696668 271841 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they'd basically discovered common subexpression elimination < 1331696672 505837 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: haha < 1331696675 675541 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and confused it with call-by-need < 1331696686 714465 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, tell him to fix the website, then ;) < 1331696707 140932 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, "parallel call-by-need" or whatever it's called could be worthwhile < 1331696720 939525 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we discovered that it's possible via a source-level transformation, though < 1331696743 741255 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does parallel call-by-need mean, precisely? < 1331696776 661184 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, whenever you determine the value of a lambda variable in a particular scope, you start specializing everything in that scope that uses the variable, in the background < 1331696788 890823 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then when it goes out of scope, kill the specializations < 1331696797 788986 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, that sounds nothing like call-by-need < 1331696800 467445 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and return to the original < 1331696819 417564 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, think of it this way: \x.print(x+1);print(x+1) < 1331696845 542342 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as soon as that's called, x gets a value, x+1 gets specialized in the background (i.e. only executed once), and you end up printing the sum twice while only calculating it once < 1331696896 265411 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the similarity with common subexpression elimination comes when you realise that's equivalent to \x.new y := x+1 in print(!y);print(!y), with a backgrounded initialization of y < 1331696905 152715 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(important if print takes some time to set up before it asks for !y's value) < 1331696922 406203 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardware is weird < 1331696949 509214 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, we realised that in the absence of side-effects, background-calculating things didn't actually cost anything at all < 1331696978 718424 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even in the need to be able to kill the calculation halfway through, because we can use the same circuitry for that as we do for the global reset < 1331696992 151819 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is necessary so that we don't end up with multiple instruction pointers at power on) < 1331697049 275357 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so has any of this been tested on a real fpga? :P < 1331697066 826872 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but if we do it, it'll be as a source-level translation anyway < 1331697077 155095 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :together with extra support for a one-way parallel composition < 1331697102 526866 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I mean, gosc itself < 1331697108 512889 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, of course < 1331697133 963267 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you think that quickstart.txt contains detailed notes on which things to click in Quartus II to get it working properly? or have you not read that? < 1331697168 165390 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed not < 1331697171 837643 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i was joking < 1331697220 920370 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone who's apparently really important came round, and we showed him a recursive memoized Fibonacci that displayed its result in hex on some seven-segment displays < 1331697224 674895 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :running on an actual FPGA < 1331697227 535883 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh, i just remembered that thing shachaf said < 1331697238 111430 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, heh, what did he say? < 1331697249 203788 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't there at the time < 1331697252 117535 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I don't know < 1331697253 758494 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1331697265 825659 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the funny thing was that he was giving a seminar, and I was pretty much forced to attend < 1331697275 574724 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but by the time I got there, the whole room was full and there was no room for me, so I didn't < 1331697281 417309 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Wait, what did I say? < 1331697282 839352 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it seems the same threat had gone out to the whole department < 1331697292 380816 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Remember when you asked what "either, but not both" meant logically? < 1331697299 98384 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :My brain has started to attempt to try and work it out. :-( < 1331697303 232496 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an xor, isn't it? < 1331697306 280248 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said that? < 1331697313 600239 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no < 1331697323 547081 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the idea is that you get to pick whether (P & ~Q) or (~P & Q) < 1331697328 887297 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I remember that now. < 1331697331 257577 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you're not allowed to go back and change your mind < 1331697342 103713 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: clearly that requires state :) < 1331697347 554722 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, it's like linear logic, sort of < 1331697356 615349 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1331697365 659005 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I'm stating it vaguely < 1331697368 122880 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it requires state < 1331697379 421133 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a different structure < 1331697383 63866 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :p :- \+ q_mem, assertz(p_mem). q :- \+ p_mem, assertz(q_mem). < 1331697384 566613 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't think it requires state, why are you stating it??? < 1331697392 19931 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION contributes to the discussion.
< 1331697401 202437 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: heh < 1331697411 392559 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's much clearer in Prolog :P < 1331697430 853650 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I think any solution using actual state misses the point of the question < 1331697472 463619 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you essentially want (forall R, (P&~Q -> R) & (~P&Q -> R) -> R), except it can only be used once < 1331697479 917591 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :except it's not even "only once", really < 1331697484 437733 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just don't want to be able to nest it < 1331697490 279050 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :except it's a bit stronger than that, because you could pass id... < 1331697522 379048 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: something like "X=p" and "X=q" in Prolog? < 1331697539 987662 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :either is true, but not if you use them both in the same scope < 1331697544 183686 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, similar < 1331697563 249473 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "one-use" thing is why I think linear logic is vaguely related < 1331697584 695442 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: (p, q)? < 1331697587 740761 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Verity? < 1331697590 726885 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm? < 1331697599 993904 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't use p and q at the same time < 1331697610 944782 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1331697613 993886 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the type system forces it, linear-logic-style < 1331697617 262100 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1331697686 278138 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... I don't really know anything about linear logic, but would asserting (X ⊸ (P ⊗ Q^⊥)) ⊗ (X ⊸ (P^⊥ ⊗ Q)) work? < 1331697693 954488 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :then X is P orbutnotboth Q < 1331697703 276287 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect that doesn't actually work, but am too ignorant to know why < 1331697714 902482 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know anything about that syntax for linear logic < 1331697720 141353 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than recognising it < 1331697723 860167 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was copying from Wikipedia < 1331697734 468562 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :^⊥ is the dual thing < 1331697738 212644 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :⊸ is linear implication < 1331697755 462644 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"⊗ is called "multiplicative conjunction" or "times" (or sometimes "tensor")" < 1331697764 270362 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but perhaps I meant & ("additive conjunction") and didn't realise it < 1331697768 229526 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :again, I really know nothing about linear logic < 1331697775 93450 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[ ! is pronounced "of course" (or sometimes "bang") < 1331697775 254991 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : ? is pronounced "why not"]] < 1331697778 668905 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than that it's ridiculous... < 1331697785 55703 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"⊗" is typically pronounced as "tensor" regardless of what it actually means < 1331697877 824884 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :affine type systems, on the other hand, I'm happy with /those/ < 1331697888 259305 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(an affine type system is like a linear one, except it allows you to not use a variable if you don't want to) < 1331697897 567630 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would work for this, I think < 1331697940 723565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, -> is affine in SCI and Verity < 1331697959 993055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and tuple formation is non-affine, which is why it has the restriction that you can only use one side at a time; so that the hardware itself ends up used in an affine way) < 1331698055 680075 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's affine type system you got there. < 1331698066 48036 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be a shame if anything was to happen to it. < 1331698320 764189 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds like shachaf has an affinity for ais523's type system < 1331698333 221891 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't make this into a pun thread :( < 1331698349 836619 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan isn't here, we have to work twice as hard to cover for his absence < 1331698371 693045 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i started coming up with another pun, but gave up before i affinis-ed < 1331698431 12263 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: come on that one was awful < 1331698459 176898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe if I ignore them they'll go away? < 1331698508 288845 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: careful, if you start ignoring everyone you might incur some unwanted affines you have to pay < 1331698544 553267 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: So what's an efficient way to do operations on columns of a (row-major) matrix? < 1331698593 33059 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: make it be column-major instead? < 1331698612 408717 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm doing booperations on both columns and rows. < 1331698615 365367 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the rows are easy. < 1331698636 600888 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :booperations < 1331698653 541052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: just use a stride? < 1331698665 399743 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :have a pointer and add the width of a row to it each time round the loop < 1331698672 321803 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Come on, elliott, booperate with me on this. < 1331698675 557797 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not cache-efficient, but I don't think there is a cache-efficient way to do that < 1331698694 951075 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Right, I was looking for something more cache-efficient. :-) < 1331698710 845022 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how can there be one? the stuff you're looking for is not together in memory < 1331698711 821442 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Store it in BOTH row-major and column-major order!! < 1331698719 793130 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could use a GPU, where you manage the caches yourself? < 1331698722 254443 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, interleave the row-major and column-major representations, one element per each. < 1331698723 414795 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I know. :-( < 1331698732 274696 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've half a mind to just transpose the matrix first. < 1331698744 973081 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Come on, interleaving would be great. < 1331698749 315870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that you only incure the cache-inefficiency penalty once? < 1331698751 741399 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I was doing enough column operations it would probably be worth it, but I'm only scanning each column once. < 1331698764 43272 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: interleaving is nearly always a bad idea cache-wise < 1331698770 287066 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no matter what you're interleaving or why < 1331698788 228136 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ty interleave < 1331698789 95597 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (m :: * -> *) a. (MonadLogic m) => m a -> m a -> m a < 1331698791 495031 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :TAKE THAT, OLEG < 1331698791 656916 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK, /fine/, buy two-dimensional memory and store the row-major stuff /behind/ the column-major stuff < 1331698793 82499 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless, on a CPU, the values you're interleaving would always be accessed together < 1331698800 319142 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(what do you mean, you could just use the two-dimensional storage directly?) < 1331698809 397846 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dual-layer memory? like a DVD? < 1331698818 60570 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1331698824 705791 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was going to say that, but decided 2d would be better as it would let me make that joke < 1331698844 876060 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :YAY, JOKES < 1331698859 435206 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, transposing a matrix in-place is hard. :-( < 1331698889 681671 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I gave a lecture partly about doing that efficiently < 1331698904 617807 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the person who was meant to give it booked a plane in the morning rather than the afternoon < 1331698922 536868 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because he'd tried to book one in the afternoon, been offered one in the morning instead, and didn't check to make sure it was at the time he requested) < 1331698963 368476 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds exciting. < 1331698997 442492 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the funny thing is, that over half the matrix transpose stuff had been made moot since the year before < 1331699003 263707 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because GPUs had got better at accessing device memory < 1331699474 421872 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.19 still isn't out! < 1331699513 578877 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google what is 1.19 < 1331699516 876473 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/measurement/faq/volume-to-mass-air.shtml < 1331699517 64188 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Title: General Chemistry Online: FAQ: Measurement: How can the mass of air in a room be ... < 1331699527 836601 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "We have to write out binary data, so we use the writeFile defined in Data.ByteString.Char8, which operates on ByteStrings. This is why we need to convert our String to a ByteString first using B.pack." < 1331699529 694708 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1331699530 703196 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shachaf: < 1331699536 634412 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, 1.19 is http://mediawiki.org/. < 1331699542 352109 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is 1.19 the new albumen? < 1331699555 617017 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's out now. < 1331699659 236490 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1331699682 154108 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I can transpose the matrix while I'm doing the row operations? < 1331699700 189192 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that still doesn't help. < 1331699723 820335 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Why not make the matrix symmetric? < 1331699729 170568 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you can skip the transposition altogether. < 1331699740 996140 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not just make it all zeros? < 1331699745 2509 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I can store it in constant space. < 1331699753 237065 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bit constraining, don't you think? < 1331699775 350698 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what if you stored a matrix with a Z-order curve? < 1331699837 626073 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wasn't familiar.
< 1331699857 313126 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, I don't really see how that would help with column locality... < 1331699870 709905 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it would, I'm just thinking about representations. < 1331699881 564799 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :To pack stuff closer together. < 1331700036 190234 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Lebesgue-3d-step3.png sleep.png < 1331701542 912698 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088180231.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1331701742 423086 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a GPU can transpose matrices at over 60GBps < 1331701804 143653 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how fast can CPUs do it? < 1331701936 826237 :cswords__!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1331702131 289833 :cswords_!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1331702621 268243 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: < 1331702637 67109 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1331702641 542880 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't tried < 1331702644 1667 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think it's that fast < 1331702835 116416 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, Jimbo Wales is actually the designated method of appealing an arbcom decision < 1331702840 863923 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is WP bear-ocracy so fascinating? < 1331702850 808191 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-146-18.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1331702860 91275 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-254-165.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1331704543 741962 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once wrote a matrix transposing program in QBASIC which was part of another program for compressing sokoban levels < 1331705207 902249 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You're an expert in C++ and g++'s optimizations, right? < 1331705851 352083 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yes. < 1331705853 239248 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go on < 1331705858 612884 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think you can also appeal to arbcom, in the case of new evidence, or simply nobody understanding the previous verdict < 1331705867 26263 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Is there a reason g++'s optimizer would compile the uncommented-out line very differently from the commented-out ones in ? < 1331705910 390084 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yep, but the higher authority is explicitly jimbo < 1331705942 356918 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy#Appeal_of_decisions < 1331705977 252156 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: That one's twice as short. < 1331705982 691245 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's probably faster. < 1331706027 564452 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Why are you coding C++? < 1331706031 10225 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The first of the three lines is even shorter, though. :-( < 1331706057 475338 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Because it's the best language. < 1331706066 311561 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I thought the last one was an alternative to the first two together. < 1331706082 517876 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which one is fastest? < 1331706105 383629 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first two compile to fancy AVX instructions. < 1331706137 106072 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The third compiles to boring old subtraction. < 1331706185 930205 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the first is basically C code. < 1331706195 378543 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second is OOPy and therefore idiomatic, due to its method call. < 1331706220 3951 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the third is unidiomatic (no OOP) C-style code that has the overhead of classes and objects and stuff. < 1331706226 178469 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Worst of both worlds. < 1331706231 320402 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sighs.
< 1331706237 522411 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/125578/facebook-like-confirm < 1331706242 473119 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it make it better if I changed operator[] to a named method? < 1331706253 473 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1331706255 218649 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would go faster then. < 1331706303 702995 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: needs more rvalue references < 1331706307 59421 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has not looked at the code
< 1331706350 21368 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :{(c?a:b) = 0} is valid C++ code, is it valid C? < 1331706362 999146 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It doesn't. :-( < 1331706365 634058 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't thin kso < 1331706387 920337 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Try using -O. < 1331706420 185010 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm using -O3. :-( < 1331706424 510178 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should try -O4 < 1331706451 343189 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-146-18.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Won't help for single-file programs. :) < 1331706464 672916 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yes. < 1331706467 909648 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or -O11. < 1331706495 531237 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-146-18.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: -O4 has meaning in recent GCC. < 1331706543 100350 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Would you look at the code if it was C? < 1331706584 791354 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1331706585 337820 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*That's* how you pronounce Dijkstra? < 1331706600 488119 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: *(c?a:b) = 0 is valid C < 1331706610 146774 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C++, you don't need the * if a and b are lvalue references < 1331706614 906267 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: "deek-stra" < 1331706620 235418 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: are you sure? < 1331706625 287848 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :reasonably < 1331706626 38568 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Dijkstra.ogg says "diik-stra" < 1331706633 599070 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's the same thing < 1331706636 801955 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe not < 1331706639 763078 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :deek is eeeeee < 1331706641 824552 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps that's right < 1331706642 898978 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :diik is iiiiiiii < 1331706653 571128 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :d-eek vs. die-k < 1331706669 237313 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : in C++, you don't need the * if a and b are lvalue references < 1331706670 122462 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe < 1331706676 92430 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :int a,b,c=0; (c?a:b) = 0; < 1331706676 994620 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is valid < 1331706683 107889 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in C++) < 1331706693 20933 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously? < 1331706697 539504 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help languages < 1331706698 272581 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. < 1331706724 532740 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cxx int a,b,c=0; (c?a:b)=1; cout >> a >> endl; < 1331706731 520405 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not compile. < 1331706739 409496 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cxx int a,b,c=0; (c?a:b)=1; < 1331706744 592625 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :EgoBot: 'twould be nice if you'd tell us /why/ < 1331706745 170300 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1331706749 779626 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1331706753 297219 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cxx int a,b,c=0; (c?a:b)=1; cout << a << endl; < 1331706758 148563 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :32767 < 1331706767 342354 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahaha < 1331706770 818751 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf? < 1331706778 313044 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1331706787 911401 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it interpreted b as a pointer < 1331706788 878002 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1331706800 81277 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cxx int a,b,c = 0; (c?a:b)=1; std::cout << a << std::endl; < 1331706805 75774 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :32767 < 1331706807 95774 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wait, I bet shachaf is up to his unicode tricks again < 1331706815 631424 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I retyped that < 1331706819 62729 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1331706822 177459 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, wtf? < 1331706826 743393 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ???? < 1331706832 415522 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cxx int a,b,c = 0; std::cout << a << std::endl; < 1331706837 384239 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :32767 < 1331706838 656818 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, why was shachaf's valid but not ais523's? < 1331706839 504244 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1331706840 138495 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(retyped again just to make sure) < 1331706840 983410 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you idiot < 1331706842 705360 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : !cxx int a,b,c = 0; (c?a:b)=1; std::cout << a << std::endl; < 1331706843 894847 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is c? < 1331706851 519948 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is (c?a:b), symbolically? < 1331706862 158176 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, a isn't initialized, and b is getting assigned to < 1331706863 704821 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cxx int a,b,c = 0; (c?a:b)=1; std::cout << b << std::endl; < 1331706868 714104 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1331706871 432318 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1331706881 366277 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: we need ds9kc! < 1331706884 464884 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why is uninitialized memory consistently 32767, I wonder? < 1331706889 953452 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: UML, presumably < 1331706908 827476 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's effectively a clean-booted Linux system every command < 1331706917 405086 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why not 0? < 1331706931 201372 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think in C you need *(c?&a:&b)=1; instead < 1331706967 35583 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: since when is unininitialised memory usually 0? < 1331706985 838452 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more often 0 than anything else < 1331706987 197305 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cxx int8_t a,b,c = 0; (c?a:b)=1; std::cout << b << std::endl; < 1331706992 277611 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​. < 1331706994 441796 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1331706996 938496 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some sentinel value (32767 is not a good sentinel value) < 1331707002 899908 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c int a; printf("%d\n", a); < 1331707005 98869 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1331707005 673571 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 < 1331707007 235402 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c char a; printf("%d\n", a); < 1331707009 419092 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 < 1331707012 580112 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c unsigned char a; printf("%d\n", a); < 1331707014 795729 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 < 1331707017 165594 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, what's going on? < 1331707022 732946 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c unsigned char a,b; printf("%d %d\n", a,b); < 1331707025 133299 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 0 < 1331707035 147488 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :help < 1331707099 14909 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, how does everyone pronounce GIF? < 1331707103 350082 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you say jif, I'll stop talking to you < 1331707184 123095 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :GIF. < 1331707188 374180 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38++ < 1331707200 465943 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I wrote a GIF parser once! If you pronounce it "jif" then it works very inefficiently. < 1331707229 700719 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38+++---++-+++-----++-+----++++--+--+++--+---++++---+++-++---+++-----++--+++-++--+--+ < 1331707238 552269 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@karma zzo38 < 1331707238 869503 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 has a karma of 3 < 1331707246 649664 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@karma zzo38 < 1331707246 890060 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 has a karma of 3 < 1331707247 698787 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38+++---++-+++-----++-+----++++--+--+++--+---++++---+++-++---+++-----++--+++-++--+--+ < 1331707248 590325 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@karma zzo38 < 1331707248 847511 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 has a karma of 3 < 1331707251 208856 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :HMM. < 1331707259 522013 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You've told me! < 1331707282 223879 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you pronounce it correctly it still works inefficiently. < 1331707344 430329 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if ais523 is not saying "jif" so that I keep talking to him. < 1331707406 59471 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I want Stack Exchange to be part of the social web and ultimately the semantic web. I'm not satisfied with the archipelago of S.E. islands, each with their own priesthood of moderators who frown upon chit chat and buddy buddy." < 1331708292 317425 :OPTer!~OPTer@c-98-237-93-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1331708323 684079 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome OPTer < 1331708327 780532 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :OPTer: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page < 1331708329 279667 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It compiles to the good instructions when returning a pointer instead of a reference. :-( < 1331708379 877736 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: References are safe, thus slow. < 1331708401 110925 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1331708444 412064 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I guess the unsafest operators would be fastest, right? < 1331708462 902224 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yes. < 1331708501 136164 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Hey, should I sleep? < 1331708514 961419 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : yes < 1331708517 60140 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at some point < 1331708524 548813 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't seem as tired as last time you asked that < 1331708539 433761 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sh;odiuld i sleeeeeeeeeep < 1331708540 171775 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on when you want to wake up < 1331708541 298070 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*slep < 1331708553 218006 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your e-mail have been awarded 1,000.000.00 GBP in our 2012 BT AWARD < 1331708553 379945 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inbox < 1331708553 380128 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :X < 1331708553 380238 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :from Sherry McKibben hsaasherryM11@shaw.ca < 1331708553 380349 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :to < 1331708553 718714 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :date 14 March 2012 06:53 < 1331708555 723343 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :subject Your e-mail have been awarded 1,000.000.00 GBP in our 2012 BT AWARD < 1331708557 722783 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mailed-by shaw.ca < 1331708559 725942 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hide details 06:53 (9 minutes ago) < 1331708561 728304 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Name.....Country......Phone..... < 1331708568 600730 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :my email have been awarded 1,000.000.00 GBP in our 2012 BT AWARD!!!!! < 1331708617 722425 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: [[Haskell, being lazy, allows the usage of thunks (unevaluated expressions) which can build up ad infinitum without such mucky things as 'stack overflows' ugh.]] < 1331708625 437049 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You know when foldl builds up a billion thunks and you get a stack overflow? < 1331708628 746661 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That never happens. < 1331708691 653895 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What about the time when it happened. < 1331708735 165969 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That didn't happen. < 1331708761 669441 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :^dundundun < 1331708944 163112 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :^def dundundun ul ([dramatic music])S < 1331708950 626134 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot???? < 1331708952 16998 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie!!!! < 1331708954 736306 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: FI!!!J!IO!JO!IJZXIE < 1331708987 417537 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That's a long Wikipedia link you've got there. < 1331709006 419977 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1331709023 541678 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one in the Wikipedia brackets. < 1331709062 437730 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1331709066 193964 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are MediaWiki brackets. < 1331709073 903101 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I've been quoting with [[...]] since before Wikipedia existed. < 1331709088 374746 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I was quoting [[...]] when I was 5 years old, fuck you. < 1331709093 797312 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Untrue.) < 1331709112 241344 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::0 < 1331709131 305879 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should quote as follows: «You should quote as follows: » < 1331709156 200930 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy! It's that kid who's younger than me! < 1331709158 519181 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW ARE YOU DOING < 1331709170 760049 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey ais523, should I sleep? < 1331709180 864041 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hi im fine < 1331709194 55716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: can you not make your own mind up, this time? < 1331709204 125721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, quotes are {{{ }}}, or you're insufficiently Agoran < 1331709214 377492 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agoran quotes are usually {{ }} these days! < 1331709220 625685 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, those are both MediaWiki syntax too. < 1331709306 698327 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy is younger than you? < 1331709315 197355 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure monqy is A BILLION YEARS OLD < 1331709330 91805 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-146-18.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure elliott is the universe. < 1331709349 591543 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Shut up, you're only 4. < 1331709350 24418 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-146-18.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the age he tells people is actually how long he's had Internet. < 1331709364 964572 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The universe sure did get internet late. < 1331709382 353978 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-146-18.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's expensive wiring off-planet. < 1331709393 705155 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-146-18.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially since you need superluminal cabling. < 1331709418 742822 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I'm the universe then where is @? < 1331709455 40040 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: When the logs get edited, all references to @ ever not having existed will be erased. < 1331709473 477863 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-146-18.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The present state of @ is the cosmic background radiation. < 1331709498 729773 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-146-18.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is to say, the big bang is actually a representation of your thought processes. < 1331709515 121271 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't tell whether this makes @ awesome or really bad. < 1331709528 301360 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I can tell it means neither. < 1331709536 514336 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 has a point. < 1331709552 207303 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Does it mean either one? It could mean neither. That would be a possibility. < 1331709627 44295 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: So how do I connect to the CMBR? < 1331709731 504197 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-146-18.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fetch the data from WMAP. < 1331709741 381744 :cswords__!~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1331709758 342091 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's static! < 1331709764 277924 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ is, like, fluid. < 1331709972 132232 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-146-18.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternately, get a radio, untune it. < 1331709979 707211 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-146-18.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Listen to the sounds of the creation of the universe. < 1331710029 651145 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, @ sucks. < 1331710088 877849 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, Britannica costs $1,395? < 1331710114 469684 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Superluminal cabling is stupid. < 1331710124 186734 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just put a few fiber optic cables through a wormhole < 1331710172 966770 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Can I have a wormhole? < 1331710280 265596 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yes. < 1331710315 156483 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You should answer DanBurton's question. < 1331710414 309964 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Done. < 1331710500 483408 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has influence.
< 1331710622 70193 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I wantonly to understand! < 1331710710 259996 :cheater!~cheater@ip-80-226-24-1.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1331710739 654205 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Should I __ __ _____? < 1331710754 323879 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ARE TYPE CLASSES DISCOVERED OR INVENTED < 1331710758 162997 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you could ask zzo38 to take your horoscope again < 1331710773 30397 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Should I sleep? < 1331710791 772959 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Are you tired? < 1331710797 185846 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know that infinitely redirecting website? I got a reply back saying it was working yesterday < 1331710823 168122 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ultimately it should be your own choice to sleep or to not sleep. However, you can make decisions using other methods if you prefer. < 1331710877 513977 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'm looking for a more... astrologically inclined answer. < 1331710883 263889 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: problem solved, then < 1331710883 639616 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: What's the best method to use to make decisions? < 1331710898 178845 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: OK. Tell me your latitude and longitude then. < 1331710929 543620 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I imagine they're the same as last time < 1331710939 982441 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-240.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1331710940 157327 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget what they were last time < 1331710948 35550 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-146-18.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1331710967 785720 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see... < 1331710974 572817 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Latitude:N54:58:22 Longitude: W2:06:41, apparently < 1331711032 339447 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I put that into the computer. The answer is the same as last time: Wake up. < 1331711046 667922 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoa. < 1331711066 299231 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I know you are probably awake already) < 1331711111 858582 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Do you live in 45 Rye Terrace? < 1331711119 966725 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I was awake... but then I woke up. < 1331711125 195792 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: No, I googled "hexham latitude longitude". < 1331711193 474363 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: USELESS TRIVIUM OF THE DAY: apparently, WMF developers aren't called developers any more < 1331711211 354455 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1331711218 72723 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps you can put it in your own Astrolog next time. < 1331711226 365113 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they're "system administrators", which is (a) more accurate and (b) boring) < 1331711229 9760 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I doubt it runs on Linux. < 1331711257 833586 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It runs on DOS, Mac, Windows, and Unix. So probably it will run on Linux. < 1331711267 862489 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I put it in my own Astrolog. < 1331711275 384529 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It told me I should "give Astrolog money". < 1331711280 903275 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Wikimedia's present power structure is a mix of anarchic, despotic, democratic, republican, meritocratic, plutocratic, technocratic, and bureaucratic elements" < 1331711282 724241 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The author's other program, Daedalus, appears to be Windows only, though) < 1331711305 546743 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/is a .*/is a mess/ < 1331711330 294060 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You put your coordinates in and it told you that? But as far as I know it is not for sale. < 1331711340 63903 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: s/ix.*/ess/ # regex golf! < 1331711365 59072 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ix"? < 1331711367 82543 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1331711396 747493 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, now you have regex golf. I think some of the anarchy golf problems are similar to a regex golf in some cases. < 1331711711 286981 :fungot!~fungot@a91-152-37-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1331711761 78224 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot :') <3 < 1331711761 416712 :fungot!~fungot@a91-152-37-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: this is my explanation, but it's the v6 stack driver that throws that out. < 1331711769 246481 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You put fungot on IPv6 and it broke? < 1331711769 594766 :fungot!~fungot@a91-152-37-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: fibonacci heaps, trinomial heaps, fat heaps, thin heaps, fat heaps, thin heaps, fat heaps, relaxed heaps, and maybe even specifically optimized by the implementation < 1331711770 701068 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monster. < 1331711776 148494 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote elliott: fibonacci heaps, trinomial heaps, fat heaps, thin heaps, fat heaps, thin heaps, fat heaps, relaxed heaps, and maybe even specifically optimized by the implementation < 1331711776 380790 :fungot!~fungot@a91-152-37-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: bloody flow analysis :) bye. < 1331711783 922200 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :823) elliott: fibonacci heaps, trinomial heaps, fat heaps, thin heaps, fat heaps, thin heaps, fat heaps, relaxed heaps, and maybe even specifically optimized by the implementation < 1331711801 515986 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fat heaps, thin heaps, fat heaps, thin heaps, ... < 1331711862 986055 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relaxed heaps, and maybe even specifically optimised by the implementation. < 1331711994 190731 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was that automatically generated? < 1331712000 104762 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot++ < 1331712000 267238 :fungot!~fungot@a91-152-37-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: i checked it :) first i need to < 1331712010 120759 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: FIRST YOU NEED TO WHAT < 1331712010 758560 :fungot!~fungot@a91-152-37-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: process 3 killed. i'm happy with double-precision arithmetic. however, these rules are then used to anticipate the events after n steps, i can assure you < 1331712048 20855 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think fungot is dying. < 1331712048 280354 :fungot!~fungot@a91-152-37-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: perhaps it has something to do with it?" ;p < 1331712187 716909 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot? More like funbot! < 1331712188 245167 :fungot!~fungot@a91-152-37-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: it's also an identifying uri manipulation libs for just about every side, except on keenspot when it points to some proxy in switzerland which happens to be in < 1331712418 965703 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you try to put it in your own Astrolog? (Hint: You should enter your own timezone and location into the configuration file so that it selects that one by default. You can create other files with other info if you want to chart other info commonly.) < 1331712445 538367 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: If you're the universe, does that make you mostly vacuum? < 1331712457 799326 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dark energy, man. < 1331713170 29821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: "sqort" < 1331713181 129344 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :your typo fix contains a typo of its own < 1331713191 962284 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: :( < 1331713433 718541 :OPTer!~OPTer@c-98-237-93-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1331713964 168972 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-199-222.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1331713988 790551 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-240.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1331714903 502246 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1331715213 251517 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1331715240 485579 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, monqy tswett update (kallisti too if you read logs) < 1331715258 260352 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1331715333 133225 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have any opinions about the Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth? < 1331715391 260890 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1331715393 62083 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're all @ < 1331715401 635237 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Why don't you join any channels by default? < 1331715429 552851 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you mean by that? < 1331715511 81158 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.daniweb.com/software-development/legacy-and-other-languages/threads/408985 this is the new language I am in love with. < 1331715527 505947 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's perfect. < 1331715611 514500 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Number of people who have failed to resist the urge to say that it's perfect: 3. < 1331715654 362982 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am glad we are not the only ones you force to suffer. < 1331715694 892723 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, someone else linked it, although I repeated the link for someone who came in afterwards and saw some discussion. < 1331715720 502264 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :"first exapmle of perfect code" :D < 1331715755 443615 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imperfect comments do not count as code, I would assume. < 1331715757 121140 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's prefect. < 1331715853 961249 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's intended to be readable by both VB and C people! The redundant } and end statements ensure it! < 1331716385 987230 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1331716467 729238 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know Pascal's Wager? Do you know the opposite? The first time I saw the opposite in the book, was not named; but I saw it once called Rachel's Wager so I will call itat. < 1331716515 333037 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Named after Blaise Rachel, the famous mathematician? < 1331716632 646531 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. It is someone with the OpenID URL http://rach.myopenid.com/ < 1331719362 131159 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-199-222.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1331719364 408032 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-220-4.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1331720172 750274 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1331720613 46455 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1331720646 74543 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1331720665 324732 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan < 1331720684 161502 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=EsoInterpreters&curid=2229&diff=31113&oldid=31102 adds a column to EsoInterpreters with nothing but a BF interpreter. < 1331720701 774446 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the next revision fixes the link, but not the &nsbp;s in every other cell.) < 1331720704 139779 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi elliott < 1331720712 225600 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i decided to delegate this one to you :P < 1331720721 759392 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :WAT < 1331720751 663187 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :I SENSE SOME ABUSE OF POWER HERE < 1331720793 940474 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Why is g++'s optimizer stupid? < 1331720795 131487 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :truly, telling people about revisions is the most heinous crime against human rights < 1331720830 287582 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: In particular, why is "if (data_[ix] < min) min = data_[ix];" much faster than "min = std::min(data_[ix], min);"? < 1331720849 537587 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd expect it to recognize a minimum operation which is, you know, the standard library's minimum operation. < 1331720867 727500 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: It's C++ that is stupid. < 1331720868 243157 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hth < 1331720881 709257 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: P.S. If I made you an admin, it'd be delegation, not abuse. < 1331720882 58359 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1331720896 334186 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. i knew there would be a catch to this admin thing. < 1331720912 103856 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Because if I wrote in C, there would be no standard library function for min/max, right? < 1331720978 338200 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: right! < 1331721312 93961 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: On the other hand, only with C++ you can just pull the whole thing from and avoid the loop, by writing *min_element(data_.begin(), data_.end()) instead. < 1331721318 425035 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's probably even slower.) < 1331721473 342229 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It's about the same speed as a loop with std::min. < 1331721485 428244 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadness. < 1331721533 676258 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could have been even slower. < 1331721537 782796 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it foregoed the opportunity. < 1331721540 857073 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgoed a word < 1331721560 360853 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just forged the foregoed word. < 1331721575 42435 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh wait it was just a typo, not forgetting about making the rest of the column completely... < 1331721579 729811 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i can do that < 1331721598 415340 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ern o < 1331721602 318608 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i did not want you to fix it < 1331721607 105140 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wanted you to remove the useless column :P < 1331721618 854075 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we put a column for every language with just a BF interpreter, it would be an exceedingly wide table. < 1331721664 63871 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh bah < 1331721686 393846 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW, int min1(int a, int b) { if (a < b) return a; return b; } and int min2(int a, int b) { return std::min(a, b); } generate exactly identical code; but of course "if (a[b] < min) min = a[b];" is not quite equivalent to "min = std::min(a[b], min)". < 1331721700 157648 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: (you could just re-save the old revision, if you're thinking it'll be a long ordeal) < 1331721705 358834 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i just don't want to have to write the edit summary ;P) < 1331721731 683820 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what. i disagree with that policy. < 1331721756 667407 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have already said that the table needs to split up soon anyway. < 1331721766 348023 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, the whole point is to be a _cross-reference_, is it not? < 1331721772 65835 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no crossing. < 1331721832 454041 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh. the _actual_ problem is that the entry has swapped row/column. < 1331721851 667986 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1331721854 134335 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :more importantly < 1331721855 51445 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :// TODO: add support for [ and ] < 1331721857 534630 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a brainfuck interpreter < 1331721863 616871 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1331721875 402237 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well in that case... < 1331721882 355004 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1331721936 291725 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It looks vaguely like an inlining problem. < 1331721951 509936 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Certainly I don't expect it to be able to vectorize it without inlining. < 1331721960 700446 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Write it in J instead. < 1331721991 680946 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Code that looks very similar -- e.g. min = data_[ix] < min ? data_[ix] : min; -- also gets vectorized. < 1331722045 468959 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :My other g++ optimizer vectorization complaint today also had to do with inlining -- something that only worked with pointers and not with references. < 1331722049 942057 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: But I heard C lets you get close to the metal, and has really predictable performance. < 1331722052 465243 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlike that Haskell thing. < 1331722066 486390 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :With Haskell you can have a bunch of seemingly-equivalent expressions with wildly different performanec characteristics! < 1331722067 988065 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*performance < 1331722070 830069 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That could never happen in C/C++. < 1331722097 33635 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll let kmc handle this one. < 1331722202 159309 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :...OK, this is kind of ridiculous. < 1331722248 779509 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : inline const Pixel &mymin(const Pixel &a, const Pixel &b) { return a < b ? a : b; } < 1331722251 623656 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : inline const Pixel mymin(const Pixel a, const Pixel b) { return a < b ? a : b; } < 1331722262 309875 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pixel is signed short. < 1331722271 286275 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second line gets optimized; the first one doesn't. < 1331722321 635238 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :why C++ < 1331722404 934837 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first one is kinda weird-looking, though. If I were an optimizer, I probably wouldn't bother either. < 1331722440 56132 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: But that's what std::min is... < 1331722840 341176 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It must have something to do with the con-text. < 1331722866 995902 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Why is that ridiculous < 1331722872 321901 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't optimise std::min so it doesn't optimise the first mymin < 1331722921 213262 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/OcbC gives absolutely identical 'use1' and 'use2'. (cmp esi, edi; cmovle edi, esi; jmp _Z5applyi.) < 1331722945 622876 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe it's much harder when you're talking about references to std::vectors or something. < 1331722967 149253 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :To its elements, I mean. < 1331722976 309535 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm talking about vectorization. < 1331722982 385405 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try using it in a loop over an array. < 1331723095 676973 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, http://sprunge.us/jPeB also gives identical code. < 1331723105 324791 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops, that's the identical function too. :p < 1331723122 485576 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it's kinda different. < 1331723163 556180 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also forgot the ++s, but anyhow. < 1331723253 224205 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the ++s are kind of important. :-) < 1331723304 485539 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But suddenly I'm not getting it to reproduce. < 1331723347 525752 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, because your min function is over ints. < 1331723363 565566 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1331723412 944407 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: http://sprunge.us/GidL < 1331723445 924515 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Can you write my functions for me? < 1331723471 610445 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm too busy writing fizzie's function for fizzie. < 1331723481 273708 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi fizzie < 1331723576 337913 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw something similar with the ints; it seems to want to keep an up-to-date copy of min on stack for each iteration of the loop when you call the reference version. < 1331723622 238371 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: But it generates drastically different code for my version. < 1331723630 553883 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially if you compile with -O3 -march=native < 1331723637 94254 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Happy -march! < 1331723674 805557 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes, it doesn't vectorize. But how could it, if it "needs" to keep updating -1(%rsp) for each byte separately. < 1331723721 451962 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1331723764 32790 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it something to do with aliasing? I'd understand a different behavior if the function wasn't inline, but you'd expect it to be able to figure this out. < 1331723781 71453 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I FUCKING HATE C++ < 1331723802 286957 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :DESTROY EVERY COPY OF GCC AND BURN THE SPECIFICATION < 1331723806 90781 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is all. < 1331723826 586660 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1331723829 270160 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i sense some anger issues. < 1331723862 801973 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1331723993 55256 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*CHOO* < 1331724011 742958 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :bloody dose < 1331724095 193722 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't know, but I do get almost identical code for the obvious pointer translation, template inline const T* min3(const T* a, const T* b) { if (*a < *b) return a; return b; } and a use case of min = *min3(&min, &arr[i]);. < 1331724144 694382 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's inlined, but not vectored, and the loop is essentially the same. Except, uh, now I don't see any stack references in either of use2 or use3 any more. < 1331724153 47743 :const!root@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Excess Flood < 1331724212 13671 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Oh, that last bit was just -march=native.) < 1331724228 584689 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or not. Weird. < 1331724252 300226 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"IMPORTANT: Any code that relies on wide character support is essentially non-portable and/or broken. the only reason this header exist is because I'm really a nice guy. However, I'm not nice enough to provide you with a real implementation. instead wchar_t == char and all wc functions are stubs to their "normal" equivalent..." < 1331724254 982985 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :says android wchar.h < 1331724256 457333 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, okay; g++-4.5 doesn't have the slightly useless stack thing. < 1331724260 633441 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :-august=bahamas < 1331724269 425203 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: looks correct to me :P < 1331724284 115123 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: is that a statement about in general? or just in Android? < 1331724376 563693 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Well, it's also somewhat odd that it doesn't work with the pointer version. < 1331724391 644806 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I have another bit of C++ code that gets vectorized with the pointer version but not with the reference version. < 1331724519 151608 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it's true in general that you have few guarantees about wchar_t < 1331724565 962121 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example on Windows it's only 16 bits, so cannot represent all of Unicode < 1331724657 352371 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1D509.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1331724793 997660 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting factoid, IIRC plan 9 only does 16-bit < 1331724804 855278 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to never being updated when the astral planes started existing < 1331724808 192587 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's the first utf-8 impl! < 1331724961 16126 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric : "IMPORTANT: Any code that relies on wide character support is essentially non-portable and/or broken. the only reason this header exist is because I'm really a nice guy. However, I'm not nice enough to provide you with a real implementation. instead wchar_t == char and all wc functions are stubs to their "normal" equivalent..." // this is the most legit statement on wchar anyone has ever made. < 1331725004 495277 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can check the macro __STDC_ISO_10646__ to see if wchar_t supports all of UCS / Unicode / ISO-IEC 10646 / NCC-1701 < 1331725010 815818 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for such important characters as http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f4a9/index.htm < 1331725016 302086 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :RocketJSquirrel, thank you for quoting it in full < 1331725026 92271 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :'tis my nature X-D < 1331725040 63599 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, GOAT is far more important than PILE OF POO < 1331725053 780512 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define wchar_t "NO. STOP." < 1331725059 437092 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Walter: Am I wrong? < 1331725059 598862 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Dude: No you're not wrong. < 1331725059 760793 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Walter: Am I wrong? < 1331725059 760976 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Dude: You're not wrong Walter. You're just an asshole. < 1331725066 88393 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unicode GOAT resents your inability to render Unicode GOAT.)>🐐 < 1331725071 279508 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : RocketJSquirrel, thank you for quoting it in full < 1331725073 479169 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://plus.google.com/109925364564856140495/posts < 1331725073 742241 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how we roll around here < 1331725081 62439 :variable!root@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1331725152 187422 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried to convince a friend to include a Supplementary Ideographic Elemental in his D&D campaign < 1331725299 41687 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey kmc, I'm getting sick of #haskell! < 1331725302 10757 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLEARLY YOU ARE THE PERSON TO TURN TO. < 1331725377 856546 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh. < 1331725390 749371 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Did I cause you to look at #haskell? < 1331725395 906239 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now it turns out that knowing about this gcc optimizer thing would've solved my whole problem a while ago. < 1331725399 80790 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1331725399 242915 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Not yet. < 1331725401 191028 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even WORSE. < 1331725414 956032 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I KNOW, RIGHT? < 1331725487 333692 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Allow me to summarise the current discussion for you: "gah, why don't length and (!!) use Integer?!" -> "well, if we were going to change them, it should be to Natural instead anyway" -> "changing (!!) to Natural is pointless, because you can still specify an index above the array's bounds!" -> "it still eliminates a class of errors!" -> "it is literally no more precise than Integer!" -> "what?" -> "it is literally no more precise than I < 1331725487 532726 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nteger!" < 1331725497 398067 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 NICK :BIOC_4_EVA < 1331725536 150320 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Summary of summary: I won < 1331725539 441898 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't length and (!!) use dependent types < 1331725541 104232 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the real question < 1331725554 315101 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too many dependencies? < 1331725568 681951 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :too many dependents < 1331725571 483378 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: Hey, get out! I'm busy talking about you behind your back. < 1331725576 490497 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the rules. < 1331725585 839205 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott is just bitter because he didn't win. < 1331725709 599034 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the function be64toh is named betoh64 on android < 1331725758 846237 :BIOC_4_EVA!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 NICK :itidus21 < 1331725811 967711 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you ever wanted to program for a platform where the kernel is linux and the userland is half BSD and half crazysauce < 1331725816 958463 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that platform exists today < 1331725888 664146 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't be worse than desktop linux < 1331725986 720849 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-255-206.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1331725990 423710 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-220-4.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1331726140 946592 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Come to think of it, Android is probably as close as current distros come to my purported goal of a NoGNU/Linux. < 1331726264 217493 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is that your goal < 1331726272 485076 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :RocketJSquirrel is a militant BSD user. < 1331726273 138930 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a purported goal ;) < 1331726280 466747 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :he doesn't use any gpl software < 1331726286 402897 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :great < 1331726288 203828 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :crazy people itt < 1331726310 178829 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Watch me pull this license out of my hat! < 1331726330 773650 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's apparently the only line I can quote from Rocky and Bullwinkle, and I'm not even the right character. < 1331726337 496145 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am under the delightfully trollish impression that linux and gnu are effectively c and or c++ apps and systems < 1331726372 209161 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Anywho, I just want to see a full Linux system with nothing (C) FSF. < 1331726383 272456 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: well, it's like linear logic, sort of < 1331726389 300869 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Except that I'm sure tidbits of the kernel itself have flowed from FSF, but, uh, whoops) < 1331726398 70064 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd think it's precisely that... < 1331726410 570757 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i try and formulate it in terms of linear logic later. < 1331726414 895580 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: without knowing any linear logic. < 1331726416 195048 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1331726420 615333 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know any linear logic? perhaps you can correct me :P < 1331726435 613254 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've read the definition... < 1331726442 898407 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :EXCELLENT < 1331726445 138267 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the wchar_t quote isn't wrong, it just has the kind of tone that makes me hate programmers < 1331726467 583170 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think kmc likes anybody. < 1331726472 492337 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the gnu approach would be to gradually rewrite each module of gnu in haskell until the whole thing is haskell < 1331726508 510210 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: Then, in forty years, when you have better languages and Haskell is a dinosaur, at long last you'll have a pure Haskell system 8-D < 1331726527 998774 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell wouldn't work; there is an "FFI loophole" < 1331726571 796980 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: that loophole will be closed when the foreign side has been converted to haskell < 1331726584 4718 :nortti!~chatzilla@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1331726689 546144 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the greatest possible achievement of mankind is to rewrite all existing software in haskell < 1331726689 707696 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i think you basically want (P ⊗ ~Q) & (~P ⊗ Q) < 1331726714 119956 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this amazing new technology is too powerful to be used for new projects and problems < 1331726720 803166 :nortti!~chatzilla@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does ⊗ mean XOR? < 1331726725 816066 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so & lets you pick one but not both? < 1331726729 62864 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1331726740 283634 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1331726745 181395 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok then < 1331726748 740025 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you have your answer! < 1331726777 125325 :nortti!~chatzilla@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi PART :#esoteric < 1331726788 18721 :nortti!~chatzilla@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1331726809 181652 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :RocketJSquirrel: I'm glad you're confident we'll have better languages than Haskell in 40 years. < 1331726814 679621 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I can be uncynical enough to join you! < 1331726820 619197 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess @ will exist in 40 years. < 1331726837 382961 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: linear logic is cool. I should learn it. < 1331726844 147376 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: As much as it ever will! < 1331726929 220112 :MSleep!~fyrc@67.232.225.249 NICK :MDude < 1331726974 866946 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good grief, I hate thinking. < 1331727002 395283 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: ⊗ means that you can use both sides, simultaneously, while & means you can only use one of them, but you get to choose. and there's another operator which gives you one of them, but you _don't_ get to choose, which is sort of like an or. and also another which looks like an upside down & and is dual to ⊗ and which is hard to explain exactly _what_ it gives you. < 1331727039 111003 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least that's my impression of this. < 1331727046 580845 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me, thinking is the hardest thing on earth < 1331727102 764170 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use neither side, simultaneously < 1331727142 651824 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa the linear logic guy is still alive < 1331727143 224114 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i think it makes sense as a kind of lambda thing where you get a ⊗ as argument. < 1331727151 684037 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't realise it was so modern < 1331727157 949622 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a continuation. < 1331727169 516206 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :1987?!?!?!?!?!?! < 1331727170 382031 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with curry-howard thinking.) < 1331727172 154720 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1331727209 229542 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it takes a kind of leap to invent a logic which isn't really about _truth_... < 1331727243 611473 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well, yeah... the basic idea just seems obvious in retrospect < 1331727292 155535 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am nearly done analyzing the problem. 1)Determine what I want to think about. 2)Visualize myself thinking about it. 3)Using rhonda byrne's The Secret� flip through books as if I was really thinking. 4)??? 5)Profit. < 1331727296 85190 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and that upside down & is _part_ of the definition of implication, like a -> b = ~a or b in classical logic. < 1331727301 766214 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can tell when my program stops running because my computer's fan turns down. < 1331727308 349707 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pretty instant feedback. < 1331727313 839296 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm so I guess this means it might have been explicitly influenced by resource problems in computing < 1331727320 527666 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than just turning out to be useful for that < 1331727388 712379 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and there are the unary operators ! meaning "as many times as you want" and its dual ? meaning heck if i know < 1331727437 506915 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :one more than you hoped for < 1331727447 875957 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*less < 1331727592 164762 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1331727645 491913 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and four constants, 0, 1, top and bottom, one identity for each of the basic binary operations < 1331727787 349984 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1331727908 179380 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think natural language is ill-equipped for complex logic < 1331727951 684263 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :We just need two more, then we can call them up, down, strange, charm, top, and bottom. < 1331727982 285545 :derdon_!~derdon@p4FD95941.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1331728033 110016 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ooh maybe that's the secret to the toe! < 1331728062 953244 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*t.o.e. < 1331728073 730634 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was confused for a second there. < 1331728172 91904 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1D509.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1331728490 14359 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dammit not nausea as well < 1331728535 483534 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i diagnose oerjan with ill < 1331728538 25427 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rip < 1331728553 559266 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your nausea isn't caused by disease i find it helps to vomit < 1331728560 954913 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^iff < 1331728592 969661 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: the reason i don't like nausea is because i really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really hate vomiting. < 1331728613 164132 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :vomiting is great fun! ok it's not < 1331728614 379876 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it's definitely disease. < 1331728627 336333 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually enjoy ripping my stomach lining into carrot pieces and depositing them on the ground < 1331728654 524741 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan < 1331728666 186213 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi elliott < 1331728780 665238 :derdon_!~derdon@p4FD95941.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1331731221 436736 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1331731450 540319 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.225.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been told that today is Pi Day. < 1331731460 693880 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.225.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I celebrate by acting irrationaly? < 1331731530 145118 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: Celebrate by destroying America < 1331731535 840078 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s disgusting date ordering system. < 1331731566 443196 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: but the other systems don't even _have_ a pi day! < 1331731574 282916 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which clearly must be inferior. < 1331731599 967529 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, some of us have 14 months. < 1331731636 694978 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean earth systems. < 1331731707 566589 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :2012-0 3-14 < 1331731875 243562 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :pi day in day-first systems is apr 31 < 1331731876 727191 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 360%(180-36) < 1331731877 686885 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 5 % 2 < 1331731917 973204 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: ... < 1331731958 102553 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may wish to rethink that. < 1331732027 8002 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i just made may shorter so that i could have one < 1331732050 623173 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :O KAY < 1331732075 295799 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :its feb 3 obviously < 1331732098 948588 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :14 mod 12 = 2 < 1331732110 361931 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :except you celebrate the previous year's < 1331732116 361 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, i've heard that its 22 july (pi approximation day) < 1331732116 352543 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so feb 3 2012 was pi day 2011 < 1331732130 379439 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :its actually a better approximation than 3.14 so its BETTER < 1331732163 690802 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.1fuck < 1331732278 775303 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i turned into magnetism < 1331732560 186156 :variable!root@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Excess Flood < 1331733571 239841 :variable!root@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1331734919 507160 :nys!~nys@70.126.63.176 JOIN :#esoteric < 1331734921 720993 :nortti!~chatzilla@a88-113-14-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120310102926] < 1331735198 509917 :nys!~nys@70.126.63.176 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1331735247 493424 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: QUIET < 1331735284 485365 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :quiet < 1331735949 310365 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : ___ _ _ ___ _____ _____ < 1331735949 512869 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : / _ \| | | |_ _| ____|_ _| < 1331735949 513066 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :| | | | | | || || _| | | < 1331735949 513191 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :| |_| | |_| || || |___ | | < 1331735949 513311 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : \__\_\\___/|___|_____| |_| < 1331736154 862157 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan how did the four colour theorem take so long to get proved :( < 1331736207 164353 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it so far requires a massive checking of cases that only a computer can do. hth. < 1331736230 904484 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :They kept trying to prove the "for color theorem". < 1331736243 917979 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Silly Americans. < 1331736250 122347 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :They were too busy trying to prove that P!=NP. < 1331736300 684802 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but WHY it's so OBVIOUS ;_; < 1331736320 774614 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's only a few hundred, isn't it < 1331736335 489618 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd assume you'd need to look at the different cases to see why it's not obvious. < 1331736366 397619 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: iirc _each_ of those few hundred configurations requires a massive computer check. < 1331736379 821501 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Their proof reduced the infinitude of possible maps to 1,936 reducible configurations (later reduced to 1,476)" < 1331736400 278299 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Since the proving of the theorem, efficient algorithms have been found for 4-coloring maps requiring only O(n2) time, where n is the number of vertices. In 1996, Neil Robertson, Daniel P. Sanders, Paul Seymour, and Robin Thomas created a quadratic time algorithm, improving on a quartic algorithm based on Appel and Haken’s proof (Thomas 1995; Robertson et al. 1996). This new proof is similar to Appel and Haken's but more efficient because it re < 1331736400 631134 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :duced the complexity of the problem and required checking only 633 reducible configurations. Both the unavoidability and reducibility parts of this new proof must be executed by computer and are impractical to check by hand (Thomas 1998, pp. 852–853). In 2001 the same authors announced an alternative proof, by proving the snark theorem (Thomas; Pegg et al. 2002)." < 1331736401 504600 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok fine :P < 1331736413 536173 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how hard can colouring a few thousand graphs be?! < 1331736430 42965 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the configurations are not graphs per se < 1331736453 854519 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1331736456 584914 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are graphs with _arbitrary_ colors _preset_ on a boundary < 1331736466 455474 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1331736469 168890 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so it's basically just sudoku. < 1331736474 238321 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1331736477 279830 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hope that was as condescending as possible) < 1331736488 472779 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: um it's like having to solve _all_ sudokus. < 1331736522 758879 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :by "arbitrary" i mean that you have check _all_ possible assignments. < 1331736574 812179 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i was kidding < 1331736576 222885 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, i see now < 1331736587 664231 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is all from my very vague recall of an overview of the proog, though. < 1331736589 425154 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*f < 1331736591 499610 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, i am pretty sure i could solve all sudokus if you gave me a few years. < 1331736600 345781 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is just numbers! < 1331736601 140520 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAYBE < 1331736615 142537 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The following discussion is a summary based on the introduction to Appel and Haken's book Every Planar Map is Four Colorable (Appel & Haken 1989)." < 1331736620 247111 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most entertaining book < 1331736634 686578 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"And now for 2,000 pages of computer printouts!" < 1331736782 763568 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is possible it was that introduction i looked at. < 1331736841 700330 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: looks more like a book-sized proof than an introduction going by this article < 1331736952 814154 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.225.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would tihnk the four color theorem could be somehow made linked to the three utilities problem. < 1331737046 691505 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.225.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I guess that might only prove that the minimum is at least four. < 1331737207 353405 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :norway is small < 1331737241 347934 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1331737242 202630 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1331737270 480213 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :norway is small < 1331737279 806383 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott TOPIC #esoteric :norway is small | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1331737458 169451 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you mean by area, that's absurd. if you mean by population, http://www.ssb.no/vis/english/subjects/02/01/10/folkemengde_en/arkiv/art-2012-02-23-01-en.html < 1331737534 852914 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/02/01/10/folkemengde_en/arkiv/thumb-2012-02-23-01-en.png <-- very small image. very small country < 1331737545 941402 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you include ocean area, norway is _ridiculously large.) < 1331737553 302334 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the defendant rests. (hes tired.) < 1331737554 678827 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*+_ < 1331737559 836312 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(excuse him.) < 1331737607 104372 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, the insanity by sleep deprivation defense. < 1331737643 399912 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds like you have some issues w/r/t/ the size of norway. i am sorey. < 1331737647 133161 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by ridiculous, i mean the second larges european country after russia.) < 1331737649 369525 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*+t < 1331737660 702990 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.225.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the fact that K5 is a minimal nonplanar graph, which means that you can't have five areas that all touch each other on a plane. < 1331737662 804599 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about france : / < 1331737675 132388 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sorry sicnecence" -norway. (probably hates LHC.) < 1331737677 84424 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: "if you include ocean area" < 1331737691 546550 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess france has some outside europe. < 1331737705 809807 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Key domestic issues include immigration and integration of ethnic minorities, maintaining the country's extensive social safety net with an aging population, and preserving economic competitiveness.[2][9], and being smal. < 1331737738 194282 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously that's a mistranslation from no:smal = en:narrow. < 1331737743 664236 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Corded_Ware_culture.png this map i can see but norway i canot < 1331737751 236779 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it is hiding. or perhaps it is smal. < 1331737752 598298 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :we will freely admit to being narrow, in the middle. < 1331737804 175134 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Satellite_image_of_Norway_in_February_2003.jpg <-- picture of sweden < 1331737843 989270 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow how much do you pay the people who pick the pictures for your wikipedia articles this is pretty < 1331737864 35116 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: five colors being enough has been known for more than a century. < 1331737995 552859 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/StatfjordA%28Jarvin1982%29.jpg <-- COMOMPENSATING FOR SOMETHING NORWAY,,,? < 1331738020 213672 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs181243217.pp.htv.fi QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1331738034 922460 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs181243217.pp.htv.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1331738058 45399 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Norway's population numbers roughly 4.9 million. < 1331738059 439809 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: smal. < 1331738075 813323 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoah trondheim is big < 1331738090 393624 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: SOON. you didn't read that first link did you. < 1331738098 42095 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a troll-physics alternative to the four colour theorem is to just draw the edges on maps < 1331738109 239895 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly it was a bit hidden in the first blockquote. < 1331738132 937613 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Statistics Norway has calculated that Norway will reach a population of 5 millions on Monday, March 19. Population in Norway reached the first million in 1822, the second in 1890, the third in 1942 and the fourth in 1975." < 1331738135 228165 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because when you have drawn the edges, it doesn't matter so much that 2 adjacent regions are the same colour < 1331738161 110593 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this fact enables line art to exist < 1331738162 342850 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Greater London Urban Area is the second-largest in the EU with a population of 8,278,251,[24] while London's metropolitan area is the largest in the EU with an estimated total population of between 12 million[25] and 14 million.[26]" < 1331738169 702815 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :soon the world will learn to fear the norwegian population singularity. < 1331738174 36664 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quod. Erat. Demonstratnoiarniotdmuj < 1331738184 139100 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ah but is london's population _increasing_? < 1331738196 449788 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ask the Conservatives < 1331738204 192083 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ scathing political satire < 1331738220 39731 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the joke is that we should kill all the Conservatives and also everyone else) < 1331738230 933050 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i imagine it would be exceedingly useful when you can't draw "edges" < 1331738235 355811 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. subtle british humor. < 1331738238 860775 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: pls rate my attempt at diplomacy < 1331738246 78171 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :& neutrality & fairness < 1331738255 815730 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get it < 1331738256 100272 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. < 1331738339 397523 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/London_Underground_full_map_complete.svg < 1331738341 549380 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :bigger than norway < 1331738454 101420 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: uk population facte. the london underground is actually the 147th largest city in th eworld , thanks to its 24/ 7 population . < 1331738454 743321 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :chesham, amersham, chalfont & latimer. < 1331738470 297525 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(norway is the 156th.) < 1331738477 161537 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something that could happen that hasnt happened is political territories having official textures for their representation on maps < 1331738483 712396 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :big indeed, when my browser doesn't resize it. or even provide scrollbars. < 1331738501 670880 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that would make maps even easier to read if you could associate a country or state with a texture pattern < 1331738515 49831 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :too big to be resized. < 1331738517 517134 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ctrl - helps) < 1331738566 523948 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :by helps you mean "has no effect", i assume. < 1331738593 903171 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw i recall having to download an svg viewer separately in order to view mezzacotta. < 1331738714 191277 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it works in chrome. < 1331738715 782113 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probably firefo. < 1331738716 333619 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :x. < 1331738718 784694 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probably everything but IE. < 1331738732 578319 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll download an /svg viewer/ but not a better browser? < 1331738737 987281 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also note that removing the .svg at the end does not lead me to the full page which you should have linked in the first place. < 1331738759 420232 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NORWEGIANS VERY INSECURE < 1331738764 257240 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i hear firefox is a memory hog, which means it will probably utterly kill my laptop. < 1331738775 454761 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:London_Underground_full_map_complete.svg hth hand < 1331738789 572674 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's a rather outdated impression < 1331738807 867649 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly firefox/chrome aren't going to use significantly more memory than IE at all (and perfectly likely less). < 1331738830 33381 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(opera probably uses a tiny fraction, at the expense of sucking.) < 1331738923 308621 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :starts having ideas but resists as best as i can to say more < 1331738955 139242 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first degree of disclosure as it were, to merely indicate the existence of something that could be disclosed < 1331740013 178288 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.225.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I think that K5 being nonplanor would prove that four is the maximum needed. < 1331740032 480516 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.225.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since for five colors to be needed, you would need five areas that all touch. < 1331740105 901581 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.225.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you had five non-overlapping areas that all touch, you could node and each edge as a connection between nodes, and have five points with non-crossing connections. < 1331740132 128682 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.225.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*could replace with a node and eash each with a connection between nodes < 1331740144 578532 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.225.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*could rrpalce each area with a node < 1331740475 937327 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I rrpalce areas with nodes all the time. < 1331740680 807751 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1331740708 619367 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: um you are wrong, plain and simple. K5 being nonplanar is trivial in comparison. < 1331740711 574925 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1331740747 656438 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1331740764 558923 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.225.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure nodes are used in place of areas in topology exactly because shape dones't matter. < 1331740792 697879 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm talking about No, I think that K5 being nonplanor would prove that four is the maximum needed. < 1331740812 520576 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.225.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, so amI. < 1331740886 131074 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.225.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That and the fact that if you have two areas that are connected by an edge, you can put points in the areas and draw connections that go through the edges. < 1331740899 448842 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think if it came down to only one graph being planar or not, the four colour theorem would have been proved a lot earlier. < 1331740927 609905 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1331740934 640119 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agora needs "any linear combination of persons is a person" < 1331740977 401151 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Are you mister snuggles? < 1331741003 807200 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what interests me in all this is how nintendo chips offered up 4 colours per tile region < 1331741081 55578 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because yeah.. thats what i'm like.. moving along < 1331741182 105365 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no < 1331741229 930011 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: A SUSPICIOUSLY SLOW response. < 1331741447 436839 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION conjectures that half of coppro is 1/3 of mr. snuggles.
< 1331741628 315721 :MDude!~fyrc@67.232.225.249 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1331741772 334276 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wait, are _you_ mister snuggles? < 1331741784 331366 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, i dare you to email one of the lists saying you're mister snuggles. < 1331741791 27569 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca TOPIC #esoteric :this channel is mister snuggles | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1331741863 313671 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i don't know, they haven't told me < 1331741917 45188 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you're already subscribed to the backup lists, right? i'll, uhhh < 1331741920 132983 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :give up sarcasm for a whole month < 1331741938 912229 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and be unfailingly nice and patient < 1331741940 682871 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :to EVERYBODY < 1331741964 253636 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm subscribed to at least some of the backup lists, yes < 1331741982 931334 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's just tue and yoyo < 1331741993 671665 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1331742039 268417 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I am mister snuggles" is the small price for my kindness :P < 1331742049 223127 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that might be lying! < 1331742078 547146 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and besides, such a strict regime would probably kill you. < 1331742090 884444 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can assure you, there is no way anyone could possibly prove a statement like that true or false before everyone gets sick of it all. < 1331742103 398865 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you're not a player, so there's nothing they can do other than not let you play :P < 1331742157 974880 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://championofbirds.com/?p=4991 BEHOLD < 1331742158 137333 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION notes that elliott seems to consider "no one can prove it" to have anything to do with whether to lie or not.
< 1331742182 615151 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i call it "nomic" < 1331742195 988881 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, it's not lying. mister snuggles does not claim to not be any player of agora < 1331742198 717281 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell MDude You don't need to have "n areas that all touch" to need n colors. There are (admittedly nonplanar) triangle-free graphs of arbitrarily high chromatic number, and the planar W_5 (the 5+1-node wheel; a 5-cycle with a hub) doesn't contain K_4 but needs all four colors. < 1331742198 996717 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1331742203 231986 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a staunch platonist back in my agora days... < 1331742205 895830 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor any non-player! < 1331742225 794405 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: pfft, it's all about neo-pragtonism these days < 1331742252 250455 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok i would also settle for "I am not mister snuggles.", which has the added benefit of being factually correct. < 1331742272 510430 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that might be lying! < 1331742281 891423 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION runs away
< 1331742295 893031 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you have sent any emails from mr.snuglz@gmail.com in the past few months, it is not :P < 1331742309 629461 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fancy. < 1331742326 551806 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey were you around for the mousetrap? < 1331742336 242703 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the name rings a bell. < 1331742340 990617 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :RocketJSquirrel: "A genius? A madman? A warlock? An emperor? A child? A hero?" < 1331742351 45711 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :RocketJSquirrel: I think "child". < 1331742364 250426 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(^ LOOK AT THIS DARK WIT YOU COULD BE FORBIDDING ME FROM, OERJAN) < 1331742376 53052 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow the interview < 1331742382 117493 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on wednesday < 1331742395 732316 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :RocketJSquirrel: I note that one (1) person has tweeted that thing alreaddy. < 1331742397 465600 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*d < 1331742402 262527 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: They tweet their own stuff. < 1331742408 687775 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thing happened < 1331742409 39279 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT'S STILL A PERSON < 1331742419 286320 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1331742420 838990 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the mousetrap was that contract that bound people into it without agreeing to it. < 1331742423 565426 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : as a staunch platonist back in my agora days... < 1331742433 628842 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does Agoran Platonism work? < 1331742460 236837 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not Agoran. < 1331742463 123236 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's nomic platonism. < 1331742478 94037 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tl;dr there is One True Gamestate in the sky, determined solely by application of the rules. < 1331742499 612314 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The players must adhere to that gamestate or else be accused of playing Calvinball. < 1331742507 372619 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, why don't I just link you to the thesis. < 1331742534 315251 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: fall 1995 was mousetrap it seems < 1331742538 402939 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ftp://ftp.cse.unsw.edu.au/pub/users/malcolmr/nomic/articles/agora-theses/lib-vanyel.html < 1331742563 408978 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, wtf. < 1331742573 658622 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that article reverses the definitions of platonism and pragmatism i am used to. < 1331742582 470786 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The most common source of debate seems to lie in the dichotomy between Platonist and Pragmatist interpretations. In the former case it may be assumed that if a Rule says an event shall occur, and doesn't, play can continue *as if* the event had happened as specified. In the Pragmatist view, however, any event which occurs late or not at all, or not as specified in the Rules, can not be retroactively "fixed"--one may only take the game state as i < 1331742582 784620 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :t is at the time, and try to work with what is there." < 1331742588 425677 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's not the right definition of pragmatism at all, is it? < 1331742605 885678 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, ah < 1331742611 522781 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the same thing, through a different lens < 1331742626 301158 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. i guess i was there then. i don't precisely remember more than the name. < 1331742668 222586 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is ftp://ftp.cse.unsw.edu.au/pub/users/malcolmr/nomic/articles/agora-theses/lib-swann.html if you require details :P < 1331742697 497150 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: red alert. < 1331742702 988847 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathnerd is in #haskell. < 1331742715 185304 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...whatever < 1331742728 436404 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT'S NOT THE RED ALERT PROCEDURE < 1331742731 431896 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're meant to ban everyone. < 1331742736 139255 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1331742747 731357 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: BTW, read those two theses, Agoran lore is great. < 1331742761 59628 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh, I'm sure I've asked this before, but I must while we're on the subject -- what do you know of U.N.D.E.A.D.? < 1331742767 947 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it _is_ pi day, he should be allowed to roam then. ancient custom. < 1331742777 654752 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :rings a bell, nothing more. < 1331742785 657420 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what everyone says. or maybe just you < 1331743197 254693 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Feelings were compounded by an even worse example of timing: A new Player registered in the middle of the post-revelation controversy, and attempted a similar scam before the Mousetrap Compact was itself revealed. E was assured that the Mousetrap forbade this, and the new Player began angrily accusing the members of the Threat of lying about the Mousetrap's priority, e submitted es own CFJs, and eventually deregistered in disgust." < 1331743199 720313 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the bestest bit < 1331743546 941895 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1331743548 528624 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: hi < 1331743548 957890 :fungot!~fungot@a91-152-37-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: clearly yome hasn't been made yet. x_x my brother keeps on impersonating my on irc. none of the code < 1331743552 577691 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: sup < 1331743552 890511 :fungot!~fungot@a91-152-37-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: some people have the problem. if nothing else. :p no idea how < 1331743555 38668 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: yep < 1331743555 519834 :fungot!~fungot@a91-152-37-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: so i shouldn't expect that debian is any different from running lisp on the 370/ 158 stored its global environment in the world of warcraft < 1331743581 352072 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PART :#esoteric < 1331743625 238387 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot < 1331743625 453617 :fungot!~fungot@a91-152-37-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: i don't really care either way now. < 1331743634 226368 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :feh < 1331743654 500298 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^_^ < 1331743725 910421 :RocketJSquirrel!codu@codu.org TOPIC #esoteric :This is likely the most important thing you will read all day: http://championofbirds.com/?p=4991 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1331743752 838074 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was a peacefully short visit. < 1331744019 53089 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION somehow read that as necromantic style
< 1331744044 480766 :myname!~myname@188.40.240.103 JOIN :#esoteric < 1331744053 44311 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome myname < 1331744054 494113 :myname!~myname@188.40.240.103 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1331744056 962918 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page < 1331744080 946198 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not myname, that's yourname < 1331744096 701900 :myname!~myname@188.40.240.103 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just had an idea for a language and thought i ask for opinions here < 1331744106 688161 :myname!~myname@188.40.240.103 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://188.40.240.103/files/spagoto.txt < 1331744147 333712 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, oerjan loves reviewing new languages < 1331744268 643557 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats elliott -----###
< 1331744381 922457 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I actually finished my school chemistry experiment today, I never thought I had it in me. < 1331744516 75487 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, do