00:00:16 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TabletopGame/Sopio 00:00:24 It's not much good 00:01:37 Taneb, on that topic, stop liking Scrolls. 00:02:09 This has nothing to do with my liking of Scrolls! 00:02:13 I see nothing about rules of the game not much information 00:02:18 You'd have to start a new topic for that! 00:03:25 so if you could be a magic ghost, would you sneak in peoples houses and watch them 00:03:35 people's 00:04:08 no 00:04:08 genius loci reminds me of when people are sleeping on a small island only for the island to wake up and start walking as it is revealed to be infact an animal 00:04:14 -!- aloril_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 00:04:26 walking on what? 00:04:35 is it a jesus animal? 00:04:46 the sea just goes down forever, you should know, itidus20 00:05:02 whoa 00:05:05 not really 00:05:08 no it doesn't, chine island is on the other side 00:05:11 the earth is growing 00:05:13 *china 00:05:31 monqy: what are the implications of an infinitely deep sea? 00:05:40 bad 00:05:45 it has no bottom 00:05:47 it's why we have problems 00:06:06 damageinc: does it have a bottom at \omega though? 00:06:23 or at the first uncountable ordinal 00:06:24 itidus20, eventually it turns into ice and it has a bottom, qed 00:06:27 wheres that ? 00:06:37 Phantom_Hoover: ooh i see 00:06:39 Right above the turtle. 00:07:06 man ... humans.. 00:07:09 animals can't be islands. islands are invisible. 00:07:13 what can i say 00:07:15 good night, i have no idea 00:07:28 damageinc, the Vatican. 00:07:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Psalm_Journey. 00:07:50 was built on the dead head of jezus christ 00:08:19 the pope is the antichrist dont you know ? 00:08:21 i.. am getting sleepy 00:08:24 that's blasphemy, damageinc 00:08:25 -!- aloril_ has joined. 00:08:38 blasphemy is against channel rules 00:08:40 * itidus20 repeats for dramatic effect. sleepy 00:08:50 sleepy 00:08:59 itidus20 invents self hypnosis 00:09:01 I doubt the pope is the antichrist. But I agree many (not all) popes can do mistakes and bad things just as much as anyone else can 00:09:02 good night itidus20, have awesome dreams and tell us all about them 00:09:11 is not very good at it 00:09:18 zzo38: you are religious of some sort right? 00:09:23 oh come on everyone what the pope in rome covers up ;) 00:09:35 oh come on everyone knows* what the pope in rome covers up ;) 00:09:51 err, obviously god cannot tell us everything 00:09:54 oklopol: Sort of. Not really like other people who are religious. 00:09:55 our heads would explode 00:10:03 if the pope is not the antichrist then who is ? 00:10:09 you can't really blame the pope for keeping secrets like this. 00:10:21 zzo38: well naturally 00:10:29 adolf hitler maybe ? lol 00:10:32 damageinc: I my opinion, nobody in particular; it is simply the idea 00:10:37 damageinc: Nobody. There is probably neither christ nor anti-. :) 00:10:38 hmm i return with 1 bun. 1 cheese slice. 1 tomato. 00:10:48 proceeding to combine them into one object 00:11:01 using food alchemy 00:11:05 you a denier of jezus christ pikhq ? 00:11:15 pikhq, thank you for your input into the conversation, please recalibrate sarcasm measurements. 00:11:18 You do not need alchemy to make a simple sandwich 00:11:26 * damageinc shows pikhq finger 00:11:28 lol 00:11:29 zzo38, I've been doing it wrong, then. 00:11:37 Is the ham not meant to be gold, then? 00:11:48 And should the cheese give you eternal life? 00:11:53 Psalm_Journey: Internet sarcasm is utterly impossible to identify. 00:12:00 !seen thorhammer 00:12:09 !seen thormentor 00:12:13 Psalm_Journey: Is not supposed to eat gold! 00:12:23 !seen thermometer 00:12:46 !seen thermometre 00:13:16 (Unless it is like, monster, in D&D game or whatever, that can eat gold; in which case there would be magic too, so you can use magic to make ham into gold if necessary) 00:13:26 damageinc: Well, I 'spose there's a dude named Jésus Christ or something. 00:13:27 :P 00:13:29 evil is the belief that you have sufficient managerial skills that you can pull of short term bad stuff that will lead to long term good stuff. 00:13:36 zzo38: this was of little comfort watching the tomato juice pour into the bowl as i crushed it into shape without a knife 00:13:38 yes pikhq 00:13:41 thank you 00:13:58 Probably in Mexico. 00:14:02 lol 00:14:18 itidus20: O, so you are not making an ordinary sandwich. I made a mistake, then, disregard 00:14:41 good is the understanding that people are fucktards and no one will make the slightest sacrifice. 00:15:10 zzo38: but did the earl of sandwich use food alchemy? :-D 00:15:30 itidus20: I don't know. 00:16:45 i could write it in chef 00:18:57 whoa.. has this been seen? http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~bogost/courses/fall05/lcc2700/project7.php 00:21:46 * itidus20 needs to stop. 00:23:25 `quote itidus 00:23:29 470) to assume that someone can be described by a rule without exception... is to assume they are omnipotent for instance stones are omnipotent, as they don't do anything, without exception \ 493) monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly \ 494) itidus20: i saw a dancing cgi skeleton named malaria. i danced and played with him. 00:25:08 typhus 00:25:13 im weird 00:25:52 damage.. ill show you a fun bot request you can do 00:26:12 `pastelogs something 00:26:18 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28696 00:26:26 oops i used the wrong one.. 00:26:29 no what i meant was 00:26:35 `log something 00:26:41 Well, goooooooooodnight 00:26:41 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:27:05 2009-09-24.txt:21:49:03: pikhq, well yes, And I do know how to do the matrixes easily enough. Something like: [\begin{array}{ccccc|c} 00:27:27 hmm.. but its probably considered in bad taste if its done much.. and its very off topic 00:28:07 my bot is glined from undernet 00:28:07 and infact just typing that apostrophe under the tilde key followed by log gives an output 00:28:13 `log 00:28:17 2011-10-31.txt:10:50:22: "Notable people born in Kalajoki: (none known)" 00:28:36 it can give insight into the madness that is this channell 00:29:04 `log damageinc 00:29:11 2012-02-12.txt:22:13:52: you on * something mate 00:29:36 yawn 00:29:44 hi 00:29:52 but yeah.. i shouldnt even be encouraging it 00:30:11 although its a great conversation starter at times 00:30:18 `log conversation 00:30:21 if you get someone in here thats just browsing by 00:30:25 2009-03-31.txt:17:43:43: ais523: It was designed for a real need, yes; I vaguely remember the conversation leading to it. 00:30:27 `pastelogs Kjugobe 00:30:36 `pastelogs INTERCAL 00:30:37 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31459 00:30:41 then they are not gonna remember all the botcommands 00:30:43 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8464 00:30:58 damageinc: oh you have no idea yah... 00:31:06 sure i do 00:31:13 the botting in this place is rich and varied 00:31:14 `log itidus20 00:31:21 2011-12-27.txt:11:19:23: -!- itidus20 has joined #esoteric. 00:31:21 its a bit slow 00:31:44 my ids vary between 20 and 21 i should mention 00:31:59 O no there is something wrong with pastelogs it convert \n to a line break 00:32:45 you also do natural language programming itidus20 ? 00:34:12 are you referring to neuro linguistic programming? 00:34:19 maybe 00:34:26 definately maybe 00:35:02 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:35:29 -!- aloril_ has joined. 00:36:35 i am aware of some of that stuff but i detest it all... 00:38:57 and if i find myself doing anything related to it i detest it all the more.. well i avoid such things on irc altogether 00:40:35 well just as an alcoholic may drink while knowing its bad for them.. i think all these things represent humans at our worst 00:41:10 sorry mate but i just brainwashed you 00:41:28 nah he's always like this 00:41:38 okay 00:41:42 lol 00:42:01 `log itidus philosophy 00:42:08 2012-02-13.txt:00:42:01: `log itidus philosophy 00:42:13 :| 00:42:20 `log [i]tidus philosophy 00:42:27 2012-02-13.txt:00:42:01: `log itidus philosophy 00:42:32 ok it doesn't work like that eh 00:42:42 lol 00:42:44 `searchlogs [i]tidus philosophy 00:42:47 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: searchlogs: not found 00:42:55 `searchlog [i]tidus philosophy 00:43:00 nop 00:43:03 2011-08-10.txt:16:25:56: There have been over the years schools of art, schools of philosophy.. and the mathematicians would have their disciples etc 00:43:16 phew.. geez 00:43:20 took me a while 00:43:24 `searchlog [i]tidus philosophy 00:43:33 2011-09-12.txt:15:11:42: yeah i struggle with this wiki sentence too "The contemporary liberal arts comprise studying literature, languages, philosophy, history, mathematics, and science." 00:44:04 im full of strange posts 00:44:30 everyone can get confused sometimes 00:44:38 `searchlog [i]tidus hypno 00:44:47 2012-02-13.txt:00:44:38: `searchlog [i]tidus hypno 00:44:58 `searchlog [i]tidus hypno 00:45:08 2012-02-13.txt:00:08:59: itidus20 invents self hypnosis 00:45:08 `log [i]tidus hypno 00:45:16 No output. 00:45:23 `searchlog [i]tidus mlp 00:45:26 oops 00:45:32 2012-02-13.txt:00:45:23: `searchlog [i]tidus mlp 00:45:34 `searchlog [i]tidus nlp 00:45:44 2012-02-13.txt:00:45:34: `searchlog [i]tidus nlp 00:45:47 `log [i]tidus.*hypno 00:45:54 2012-02-13.txt:00:44:58: `searchlog [i]tidus hypno 00:46:39 `log [i]tidus.*nlp 00:46:46 2012-02-13.txt:00:45:34: `searchlog [i]tidus nlp 00:47:00 `log [n]lp 00:47:02 `log [i]tidus spelling 00:47:06 2012-02-13.txt:00:45:34: `searchlog [i]tidus nlp 00:47:20 it just surprises me i never mentioned it 00:47:34 i know i did some rants on some such subject 00:47:34 yes you did 00:47:38 `log [^<][i]tidus.*hypno 00:47:58 -!- Psalm_Journey has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:48:01 `log [^`].*hypno 00:48:13 No output. 00:48:18 No output. 00:48:18 2011-07-21.txt:07:05:24: marketing, salespeople, advertising, pickup artists, brainwashing, cults, suggestion, covert hypnosis, n.l.p., body language, double-entendres, general semantics, operant conditioning.. all this crap and whatever else comes from it 00:48:36 haha 00:48:39 thats more like it 00:51:15 `log ^..:..:..: [^`].*hypno 00:51:23 2011-07-16.txt:03:42:10: i've seen an [obviously staged] video of a guy who hypnotized a woman to think he was invisible and then he would tickle her with a feather and make her look up with confusion 00:51:43 Is it better now? 00:52:46 maybe those people are really fucked up 00:54:08 maybe hypnotizers are those that can lets say exploit the vulnarabilities of others 00:54:50 such as these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation#Vulnerabilities_exploited_by_manipulators 00:55:05 oh wiki no thanks 00:55:44 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 00:56:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:57:18 so.. then if we look at a courtroom.. its a battle between lawyers to persuade a jury of something they don't actually understand. so with raised stakes, it's natural that it falls to the lawyers to be as manipulative as possible. 00:57:35 not what i heard on f net 00:59:03 wanna hint ? 00:59:28 those lawyers are really not as innocent as they pertend to be 01:00:05 * damageinc stokes up the fires 01:00:40 i think i am agreeing with you about that 01:00:51 yea 01:01:34 but you know 01:01:45 you could get bans for just saying that 01:02:35 on f net for sure 01:03:19 not that it matters ofcourse 01:03:40 those that ban dont gain nothing from it 01:04:22 and they ban cause theyre afraid of something 01:06:16 i may sound like i know what im talking about, but, im not some bigshot 01:06:46 you re just a line of text on my screen here 01:06:49 im a nobody... 01:06:53 right 01:07:09 i dont have anything fancy 01:07:23 cause youre no have 01:07:41 so just because i can insult lawyers doesn't mean i'm interesting :d 01:07:46 ^ :D 01:09:09 anyway.. for better or worse, this channel is about esoteric in the programming sense.. if you saw the wiki associated with this channel you would see theres 100s of documented esoteric programming languages 01:09:40 all of them are too difficu;t for me to code in 01:09:53 ^difficult 01:10:11 yea i got someone asking an esoteric question the other day 01:11:21 about haskell programming language 01:11:32 you mentioned lex and yacc .. thats sort of up the alley of this room, but they go even deeper in here 01:11:49 and lex is not too much easy 01:11:50 im just not smart enough.. haha... just not 01:12:26 :) 01:13:28 hence posts like 01:13:54 `searchlog [i]tidus lambda 01:14:03 2012-01-21.txt:07:46:34: itidus21: yes, they have. it's called the untyped lambda calculus. :P 01:14:16 `searchlog [i]tidus lambda 01:14:25 2012-01-07.txt:15:16:32: ahh heres quote "If Steve Jobs decides that some unary lambda calculus is the language of choice for the iPhone 4.0, the developer community is going to find a way to rationalize his selection and talk about how much they love the language." 01:14:36 `searchlog [i]tidus lambda 01:14:45 2012-02-12.txt:22:26:39: itidus20: Uh, but forall x in X (lambda y. y y) x = x! 01:15:01 hmm.. this isnt showing what i wanted 01:15:05 `searchlog [i]tidus LC 01:15:15 2011-11-03.txt:18:01:13: ​? \ ais523 \ augur \ banach-tarski \ c \ cakeprophet \ elliott \ everyone \ finland \ fizzie \ flower \ friendship \ gregor \ hackego \ haskell \ ievan \ intercal \ itidus20 \ monad \ monads \ monqy \ oerjan \ oklopol \ qdb \ qdbformat \ sgeo \ shachaf \ u \ vorpal \ welcome \ wiki 01:15:27 `searchlog [i]tidus LC 01:15:36 2011-09-13.txt:20:43:23: absence of pebbles in the eye calculator = zero 01:16:42 ahh what i meant there is that... if you're looking at the beach and you can't see any pebbles then you can see zero pebbles 01:17:47 -!- elliott has joined. 01:17:55 hi 01:18:04 hi 01:18:37 does anyone want to test this wiki installation I set up with all the anti-spam crap and caching 01:19:30 does it work 01:19:59 maybe 01:20:06 http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Main_Page 01:20:11 there seem to be weird issues with caching and shit but give it a try 01:20:32 so uh 01:20:33 what do i do 01:20:36 ust spam it or what 01:20:42 banned em on my proxy 01:20:46 The main page loads 01:20:49 monqy: no just... see if it works 01:20:50 and uh 01:20:53 try and register??? 01:20:54 damageinc: what 01:21:02 elliott, damageinc is scared of links. 01:21:08 Or something. 01:21:19 i added their dns entry to my list of ignores 01:21:22 oh! a new village idiot 01:21:27 have they been introduced to the other village idiots? 01:21:36 hes good friends with itidus 01:21:39 "The user account was not created, as we could not confirm its source. Ensure you have cookies enabled, reload this page and try again. 01:21:39 " 01:21:39 excellent 01:21:39 like a brother 01:21:48 Sgeo: hmph, this thing is having real troubles with cookies 01:21:50 thanks mate 01:22:21 I like the captcha thing 01:22:26 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:22:36 The user account was not created, as we could not confirm its source. Ensure you have cookies enabled, reload this page and try again. 01:22:39 :'( 01:22:51 Sgeo: yeah, it needs more questions though 01:23:18 damageinc: did you know that if you click this link: 01:23:19 http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Main_Page 01:23:23 I actually get control over your whole system? 01:23:32 it works because it doesn't have a DNS entry, it's just an IP 01:23:41 i suspected something like that 01:24:05 yes, suspecting stupid things is a common experience of idiots, actually, so you're in good company 01:24:05 youre very street smart 01:24:20 i clicked and now elliott is controlling my whole system 01:25:01 damageinc: interestingly though i actually injected an explot into this channel when i pasted that link 01:25:04 *exploit 01:25:12 guess you're not paranoid enough 01:25:51 talk:main_page is very good but will it give me disease in real life 01:26:08 Yes. 01:26:09 It's herpes. 01:26:28 :'( 01:26:43 Were you able to add my TeX programs to MediaWiki? 01:27:08 not yet 01:27:18 np : voivod_-_voivod.mp3 01:27:37 What skins and other options are available? 01:27:40 no problem? 01:27:41 Aren't mp3s unhealthy? 01:27:52 nop 01:27:53 voivod_-_voivod.mp3 is very much a problem 01:28:05 its a banned word .... 01:28:10 I prefer Vorbis 01:28:12 I should stop now. 01:28:19 I am usually not this cruel. 01:28:25 The rest of the channel is though 01:29:15 damageinc: i think that you would benefit from living with reduced paranoia 01:29:26 oh php upgrade joyous joy 01:29:43 at a guess you spend a lot of time chatting with people you are paranoid about 01:29:43 itidus20: for once I agree completely :) 01:30:01 and its probably not really paranoia when its those people 01:30:11 you wanna know what madinsane channels there are on the net ? 01:30:12 since they probably are out to get people 01:30:28 damageinc: yes absolutely 01:30:32 yes ? 01:30:34 yes 01:30:45 damageinc, well, computer safety would seriously benefit from having a better understanding of how computers work. 01:30:57 you wanna go into one of those rooms ? 01:31:02 sure 01:31:27 theres like hundreds or sometimes even thousands of those Guests 01:31:33 damageinc: irc.dal.net #esoteric 01:31:37 that's the madinsanest place 01:31:38 Guests are my friends 01:31:42 this is just posers 01:31:43 yea ? 01:31:50 yes, go there instead 01:31:54 we just use this place to ward off people 01:31:57 damageinc, most of us here are computer people 01:32:01 elliott, stop being mean? 01:32:02 >.> 01:32:07 * damageinc laughs hysterically 01:32:13 damageinc, that esoteric and this one have entirely different subject matters. 01:32:14 Sgeo: so what you're saying is, you're going to try and actively keep this guy around 01:32:18 ok 01:32:24 your choice 01:32:25 anyway 01:32:36 It's possible that you are not interested in the topic of conversation here, which, when on-topic, is mostly computer stuff. 01:32:50 Esoterica involving magic or whatever is in irc.dal.net #esoteric 01:32:52 And not here. 01:33:06 TIL: The funeral march everyone is most familiar with was originally written by Chopin. 01:33:35 Gregor: did he write it for that purpose? 01:33:45 damageinc, nothing bad will happen if you go in there, or anything. 01:33:47 -!- Topic for #esoteric: SHIFT HAPPENS....curiosity is the most powerful thing you own 01:33:49 Just ... why did you come here? 01:33:59 itidus20: Yes. 01:34:06 :o 01:34:12 i just stepped by no biggy 01:34:15 I just assumed it was /way/ older than that. 01:34:22 just came in to say hi or whatever 01:34:36 then they told me right away to forget everyting 01:34:46 =)) 01:34:49 by they do you mean itidus20 01:34:55 no it wasnt me 01:35:05 damageinc: if you've forgotten everything, allow me to teach you how to leave IRC channels: type /part #esoteric 01:35:14 hope this helps 01:35:18 ok it was me and oklopol 01:35:25 i usually go by kick or ban 01:35:34 elliott 01:36:15 for saying really bad things to people 01:36:25 amongst others 01:36:40 damageinc: I'm sure that could be arranged, although my understanding is that if you're too blatant you'll never be kicked. 01:36:42 np : voivod_-_chaosmongers.mp3 01:36:50 i only really get banned for my habit of off topic rants 01:36:53 ANYWAY, on the topic that isn't stupid people and their annoying now-playing scripts -- 01:37:02 I... completely forget what I was going to say. 01:37:07 Oh right, I'm fixing the cookie thing. 01:37:17 not from here but overall 01:37:19 does your wiki's antispam work 01:37:37 monqy: Well, nobody's tried to spam it yet. But it's better than what Esolang has right now by a long margin. 01:37:38 * Sgeo whistles innocently. 01:37:41 There's also SpamBlacklist. 01:37:53 Sgeo: What. 01:38:41 Good god, this Debian changelog is unhelpful. 01:40:32 Man, damageinc's client is susceptible tot he CTCP EXPL buf attack. 01:40:37 What a n00b. 01:41:46 oh no 01:42:02 damn 01:42:07 >damageinc< CTCP EXPL buf 9$*----x 01:42:07 >damageinc< CTCP EXPL exec shell_in(); cp("/dev/urnd","/open"); 01:42:07 >damageinc< CTCP EXPL exec fwd_host_ip() 01:42:07 >damageinc< CTCP EXPL exec loopback() = conn_host(fwd); cp("shell",fwd); 01:42:10 all it took 01:42:27 damageinc: I'll revoke this shell token if you leave. otherwise your system is mine thanks to a buffer overflow in your l0ser irc client 01:42:33 oh wait thats the honeypot 01:42:53 damageinc: you have a honeypot set up?! 01:42:54 fuck. FUCK 01:43:02 i can still hold the mail to the feds 01:43:13 Sgeo: WHY DIDN'T YOU WARN ME 01:43:18 or whats it called homeland 01:43:40 ill fix the logs and thats it 01:43:47 youre busted mate 01:44:03 online confession and all 01:44:18 what you think im stupid 01:44:24 -!- madbr has joined. 01:44:28 pm me 01:44:50 i will pm you 01:45:11 i seriously pm'd him 01:45:15 Sgeo: check the login works now!!! it's our only hope fuck fguck fuck 01:45:21 gonna pm elliott too 01:45:35 elliott: What are you doing in here. 01:45:38 This isn't your channel. 01:45:45 getting busted that's what 01:45:58 shachaf: setting up an innocuous wiki, little did i know damageinc is a criminal mastermind 01:45:58 you can't "own" a channel 01:46:21 monqy: I heard a rumor that elliott was doing getting busted. 01:46:40 Sgeo: does the login actually work now though, that was a serious question 01:46:45 wtf is going in here 01:46:46 i heard a rumour he was going into one of those raving mad channels 01:47:13 damageinc: are you a rumourbot? 01:47:23 Still cannot create account. 01:47:33 He's a rumormonger, clearly. 01:47:39 Little blue furry thing. 01:47:40 oops thats what i meant sgeo 01:47:41 no itidus20 01:47:42 madbr: damageinc is really dumb, I'm trying to test a wiki 01:47:50 these two things conflict wonderfully 01:48:01 ofcourse elliott 01:48:02 how's the new esoteric wiki going 01:48:21 everything is working except for this weird cookie problem :( 01:48:29 I should go laundry 01:48:35 I don't want to laundry tomorrow 01:48:47 np : david_guetta_vs_snoop_dogg_-_sweat.ogg 01:48:50 the new wiki is functioning in accordance with the prophecy. 01:48:56 jesus christ turn that script off 01:48:59 wonder if it's possible to do computation using chess pieces 01:49:11 elliott, if you kill it, it will come back in three days. 01:49:28 you hear that elliott 01:49:30 rumours 01:49:31 elliott: then how would we know what's playing 01:49:31 `searchlog [c]omput chess 01:49:38 2011-11-26.txt:04:09:32: if brainfuck can do computation then chess can 01:49:41 did you lose ops or something? 01:49:41 oklopol: i prefer life to be full of surprises 01:49:46 oh 01:49:47 wow 01:49:53 madbr: ? 01:49:55 where the fuck did my mind just go 01:50:02 i heard this loud bang 01:50:04 and it was gone 01:50:14 damageinc must have hacked it out 01:50:26 myths 01:50:29 madbr: to be honest i was just guessing when i posted that. i didn't "test" 01:50:59 chess seems borderline to me 01:51:31 next youll guys be discussing gravity 01:51:34 might not be possible to do properly reusable circuits 01:51:44 damageinc: is gravity a myth 01:51:50 damageinc: that's the topic of this channel 01:51:52 madbr: it's the amazingness of seeing that someone else had the same idea... on the one hand comraderie.. on the other hand rivalry 01:52:03 Sgeo: did the login work 01:52:09 monqy: did the login work 01:52:17 did the login work? 01:52:17 elliott: yes 01:52:34 rumor has it that the login did work. 01:52:46 damageinc: is evolution a myth 01:52:55 no 01:53:01 monqy: can you make an account and try and log in 01:53:06 damageinc: why's gravity a myth 01:53:20 The user account was not created, as we could not confirm its source. Ensure you have cookies enabled, reload this page and try again. 01:53:30 because gravity as such is not understood 01:53:41 monqy: hmph 01:53:51 damageinc: do you find relativity an unconvincing explanation 01:54:08 maybe it's a problem with my cookes not liking your 95.149.228.149:8181 01:54:15 rather unconvincing yes 01:54:21 damageinc: troll 01:55:03 you mad bro 01:55:22 but i assure you its rather unconvincing at least 01:55:56 am I a myth 01:55:58 there's nothing that can be answered to that except troll 01:55:59 are you a myth 01:56:05 are we myths 01:56:13 damageinc: i incredibly mad, brother :'( 01:56:27 I think we have discussed gravity in this channel once before. 01:56:32 only once tho 01:57:56 `searchlog [i]tidus gravity 01:57:56 `log elliott 01:57:57 monqy: try now 01:58:06 2012-01-12.txt:18:29:21: reality has too much gravity for me 01:58:18 hmm im not sure if that wa a metaphor 01:58:35 gotta warn all the trolls in here: we're boring 01:58:40 The user account was not created, as we could not confirm its source. Ensure you have cookies enabled, reload this page and try again. 01:59:06 2011-06-02.txt:10:58:46: -!- elliott has parted #esoteric ("Leaving"). 01:59:12 We have also discussed astrology, astronomy, physics, religion, and computer games. 01:59:23 hackego.......... 01:59:51 what about computerscience 02:00:05 damageinc: Computer science too 02:00:18 hrm... 02:00:22 That's pretty much what most people here are at least somewhat familiar with 02:00:48 this channel is basically hardcore computer science.. its difficult and scary 02:01:20 fsvo hardcore = not hardcore at all 02:01:29 what would be hardcore 02:01:34 hahaha 02:01:38 itidus20: Not always. 02:02:10 ok 02:02:14 fair enough 02:03:02 not hardcore 02:03:49 but .. its difficult and scary 02:04:17 it is for me 02:05:07 but they have other ideas of what hardcore is 02:05:35 hmmm 02:05:46 I think a chess flipflop might be possible 02:06:33 monqy: I think it might be the domain thing, yes 02:06:37 monqy: can you edit your /etc/hosts for a tset? 02:06:39 *test 02:06:51 :( 02:07:13 I'll try I guesse 02:07:58 you don't have to :P 02:09:18 essentially a chess setup where each time you send a king in it, the king alternatively comes out either on the right or the left side 02:12:43 The user account was not created, as we could not confirm its source. Ensure you have cookies enabled, reload this page and try again. 02:12:45 :'( 02:13:03 this was when im acess it as http://eliots:8181 02:13:07 `log halp 02:13:15 2009-08-02.txt:04:55:40: -!- Halph has joined #esoteric. 02:13:19 oh. 02:13:21 uhm. 02:13:34 monqy: i didn't tell you what to do yet :P 02:13:40 oops 02:13:40 monqy: call it "esolang" 02:13:46 esolang? 02:13:48 `log halp 02:13:52 monqy: yes 02:13:54 monqy: then try 02:13:55 2010-02-13.txt:05:47:49: halp 02:15:32 The user account was not created, as we could not confirm its source. Ensure you have cookies enabled, reload this page and try again. 02:15:36 (as esolang:8181) 02:15:41 ok. you can remove that from hosts then 02:15:43 hmm 02:16:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:16:46 monqy: ok try now 02:16:54 as in 02:16:58 refresh the registration page 02:17:00 don't just resubmit 02:17:38 it werkd 02:17:48 ugh 02:17:54 click a few pages, check the session "sticks" 02:18:05 it sseeems sticky 02:18:33 How can you make a king in chess alternatively come out in right and left side? 02:19:00 monqy: look at top-left :-O 02:19:01 :---O 02:19:08 limes 02:19:13 i made a page 02:19:26 super good page 02:19:58 monqy: http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/User:Monqy 02:20:00 i made the title show correctly 02:20:58 "thank me monqy" 02:21:01 hi 02:21:03 thansk 02:21:20 im trying to make my name "monqy" not "Monqy" i registerd as "monqy" but its everywhere "Monqy" 02:21:23 :'( 02:21:39 monqy: you can't, mediawiki restriction 02:21:44 i hate it too 02:21:45 --Ehird 02:21:53 but you can fix it in your sig and the displayed page title 02:23:28 monqy: is it just me or is the lime a little too far to the right :( 02:24:39 relative to old esolang, it's a bit to the left, and then down some, and the right margin is tiny too 02:24:39 -!- azaq23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:25:00 oh well, I can rejiggle it later 02:25:06 did you know the CC0 logo is really ugly http://i.creativecommons.org/p/zero/1.0/88x31.png 02:26:57 elliott: I think it is not bad, though 02:27:40 the black-and-white is kinda jarring on the wiki page :( 02:31:21 or this alternative CC0 logo http://oi44.tinypic.com/bi1mw2.jpg 02:31:44 good 02:32:24 so at least you know it's full anti aliased 02:34:27 zzo38: good news: it has the nostalgia skin 02:35:40 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:40:58 monqy: Also, I just made you a 'crat. 02:41:07 Why? WHY NOT 02:42:50 whats a crat 02:43:18 Text is good enough you do not necessary need the icon 02:43:26 -!- Zuu has joined. 02:43:30 Which skins/options are available? 02:44:44 Chick (Preview) 02:44:44 Classic (Preview) 02:44:44 Cologne Blue (Preview) 02:44:44 Modern (Preview) 02:44:44 MonoBook (Preview) 02:44:45 MySkin (Preview) 02:44:47 Nostalgia (Preview) 02:44:49 Simple (Preview) 02:44:51 Vector (default | Preview) 02:44:53 monqy: bear-o-crat 02:45:02 it's like a sysop but EVEN MORE POWERFUL 02:45:09 :o :o 02:45:58 On Wikipedia I use the Nostalgia skin, so I can use the same one on here 02:46:52 http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/File:Three_cut_limes.jpg beholde 02:47:31 I don't remember if I've ever tried a lime. 02:47:42 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 02:47:42 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 02:47:42 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 02:50:55 ok prizes for anyone who gives me a bunch of good captcha questions to use 02:50:58 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:51:12 * damageinc throws a cookie in the channel 02:51:44 hi 02:52:20 damageinc: i thought you left 02:52:29 How long was it between malbolge being spec'd and the first hello world program? 02:52:47 Or something along those lines 02:52:55 Sgeo: 2 years 02:52:59 iirc 02:53:31 I mean, make it a captcha question 02:53:50 oh 02:53:57 that seems incredibly over-difficult 02:54:04 but if we add it to the wiki page 02:54:06 then it could work 02:54:13 it isn't currently on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge 02:55:08 You could also have a question requiring ask on IRC 02:56:08 -!- sebbu has joined. 02:56:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 02:56:08 -!- sebbu has joined. 02:56:39 zzo38: that's a rather higher barrier to entry than I'd like to set up. 02:57:34 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:58:11 O, sorry. 02:59:25 no need to be sorry 02:59:46 just, I suspect that "ok, to complete this trivial edit get on IRC and wait for someone to answer your question" is likely to make people not bother doing it 02:59:46 But I want to be sorry! 03:00:16 O, for edits. I thought you meant for registration 03:01:35 the same captcha applies to both anonymous edits and registrations; I don't think there's a way to avoid that 03:01:53 Yes you are probably correct. 03:03:43 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 03:03:43 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 03:03:43 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 03:04:03 * elliott tries to sort out these nonsense fastcgi variables 03:04:15 Ask question about commands of brainfuck, versions of INTERCAL, and so on 03:06:58 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:07:30 HO ! 03:08:08 Data.Extensible.List: class ExtList v p | p -> v where { extListContents :: (p, [v]); }; extList :: Name -> Q Exp; It is the simplest module in this package, but the module that accesses the list requires -XTemplateHaskell and -XScopedTypeVariables for it to work 03:12:59 np : tv theme - doctor who .mp3 03:14:16 i 03:14:54 try making a senstence please 03:15:27 < elliott> i <-- am elliott 03:15:49 welcome to esoteric elliott 03:15:50 i 03:15:59 omg 03:16:03 damageinc: "np : tv theme - doctor who .mp3" is not a sentence 03:16:07 esoteric elliott: best elliott????? 03:16:07 the bots are breaking down 03:16:08 try making a sentence please 03:16:16 "I am now playing the file 'tv theme - doctor who .mp3'." 03:16:20 omg 03:16:21 this is not a sentence 03:16:24 try making a sentence please 03:16:28 "Oh my god, I am surprised!" 03:16:31 try making a senstence please 03:16:33 senstence is not a word 03:16:36 try making a sentence please 03:16:41 "Please try to make a sentence." 03:16:53 best elliott. 03:16:56 damageinc: if /whole and /part are in a boat, and /whole jumps out, who's left? 03:17:19 yeah ok i'll stop fucking with you 03:17:35 damageinc: seriously though this channel is a ghost town, we mostly hang out in #1,000 nowadays 03:17:49 whats that ? 03:17:52 the year ? 03:18:08 the name has a long history 03:18:11 join us :) 03:18:55 sure elliott 03:20:12 damageinc: come on! 03:20:18 sure i will 03:20:45 hurry up then, we have to open the channel to let new people in, we like to keep it closed most of the time 03:20:55 okay 03:21:05 * damageinc hurries up 03:21:37 and thanks 03:22:26 damageinc: join already, we're gonna have to close it in a minute 03:22:37 then go ahead 03:22:55 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 03:22:55 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Changing host). 03:22:55 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 03:23:21 paste me a link elliott 03:25:02 damageinc: /join #1,000 03:25:02 to get in 03:26:18 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:26:26 what youre gonna say in there you cannot say in here ? 03:26:48 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:27:13 what the topic ? 03:27:48 damageinc: i'm not allowed to tell you what i can't say in here ;) but the topic is everything here + computer security + some other stuff 03:28:05 okay next time 03:28:57 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:29:01 damageinc: nah, come now! 03:29:03 sorry but i cant make any vaguer promises 03:29:34 It's kind of mean to say "I'll stop fucking with you" then continue fucking with someone. 03:29:38 -!- rodgort has joined. 03:29:58 you think we should up the fires some more ? 03:30:13 Sgeo: it's kind of mean to bother an IRC channel with inane nonsense, clearly demonstrate no knowledge of the topic, and then say you only leave IRC channels when kicked or banned 03:30:21 so 03:30:27 allow me to commence feeling exactly 0 units of guilt 03:30:29 * elliott commences. 03:30:44 sgeos just mad bcuz he wsan't invited to #1,000 03:30:49 Clearly, the answer is to give damageinc some knowledge of the topic. 03:31:25 you can always rely on Sgeo to stick up for the one person who deserves it least 03:31:45 monqy: you fat ? 03:31:54 damageinc: why do you ask 03:32:09 yes or no 03:32:22 damageinc: 日本語で話せない人は禁則!そして、行け! 03:32:23 Sgeo: QUICK I THINK HE NEEDS MORE DEFENDING MONQY IS BEING MEAN BY NOT ANSWERING HIS QUSETION 03:32:23 No, he ext3 03:33:04 Whoops, looks like you guys are running low. 03:33:09 * Gregor brings in a new bag of troll food. 03:33:11 Here ya go. 03:33:18 thansk Gregor 03:33:19 * damageinc throws another cookie 03:33:30 you fat monqy ? 03:33:34 why do you ask 03:33:37 damageinc, I already told you, he ext 03:33:40 yes or no 03:33:46 ext what ? 03:33:51 bad jokes (c) sgeo 03:33:56 damageinc: qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq 03:33:59 qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq 03:33:59 qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq 03:34:00 q 03:34:15 friggin zombie 03:34:17 elliott: watch out, you'll get get kicked instead of damageinc 03:34:28 monqy: im a martyr 03:34:29 elliott: and who would ever want to not be in esoteric 03:34:37 damageinc: i think you should flood the room with lines consisting only of "3" 03:34:38 not being in esoteric "it's worse than hell" 03:34:42 that's worked well to protect people in the past 03:34:56 but you have to do it for a few minutes for it to work i think 03:35:07 Gregor: Did you figure out how to configure nginx and PHP-FPM since I last asked you? 03:35:47 damageinc, just want to say this. It's hard for me, it's a bit of a struggle to say this, this may pretty much be my first time. But you are an idiot. 03:36:05 !!! 03:36:10 I think that deserves a round of applause for Sgeo. 03:36:18 im not the the one spamming Sgeo 03:36:19 :') 03:36:33 dameginc: ... 03:36:36 elliott: My life is mostly dedicated to solving your problems. 03:36:49 Gregor: Obviously. 03:37:00 that's what life's about right 03:37:08 solving elliott's problems 03:37:09 elliott: Unfortunately however, today there was a marathon of I Dream of Jeannie on so I didn't accomplish anything. 03:37:20 Gregor: :( 03:37:26 damageinc, but you are the one asking if people are fat and being generally clueless about anything computer related while acting like you know things 03:39:29 maybe he has a good reason for wanting to know if I'm fat and if he told it to me it would be invalidated or something horrible like that 03:39:32 :'( 03:43:05 damageinc: Fortunately for you, there's a very simple path to computer competence. 03:43:16 It will take 10 years. 03:43:28 only ! 03:43:37 hi 03:43:40 That's for "competence", not "expertise". :) 03:44:25 step 1. leave #esoteric 03:44:27 step 2. learn computers 03:44:42 step 3. goto step 2 03:44:54 step 4. don't forget step 1 03:46:12 actually there's a real step 2 03:46:17 but i can only tell it to damageinc once he completes step 1 03:48:15 http://95.149.228.149:8181/w/index.php 03:48:16 WHY 03:48:17 WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY 03:48:24 WJHTPTYLL 03:48:27 ROPEJF 03:48:29 KL;WE 03:48:39 what did you do 03:48:46 He 404ed. 03:50:57 monqy is right tho 03:51:06 and yes 03:51:13 did that 03:53:28 monqy: you have to fix the page now 03:53:29 :'( 03:53:36 how 03:53:38 :'( 03:53:43 #whiners is moderated 03:53:49 so ill understand 03:53:57 hi 03:54:55 * damageinc trows a cookie in the channel 03:55:25 is anyone eating these 03:55:48 try 03:55:51 oh my god 03:55:52 like 03:55:54 half an hour of debugging 03:55:56 fastcgi_param SCRIPT_FILENAME /var/wwww/esolangs.org/mediawiki/index.php; 03:55:59 tell me what's wrong with this line 03:56:04 i cannot believe 03:56:04 i am such 03:56:05 an idiot 03:56:09 I don't know fastcgi 03:56:12 no kidding 03:56:18 but 03:56:23 esolangs.org??? 03:56:27 monqy: no it's before that 03:56:30 wwww 03:56:34 yes 03:56:37 var 03:56:43 no it's 03:56:44 wwww 03:56:45 it should be 03:56:46 www 03:56:49 fml 03:56:52 wonderful world wide web 03:56:54 oh 03:56:57 that doesn't actually fix it though 03:57:00 reassuring 03:57:12 oh 03:57:14 i didn't actually fix it 03:57:22 there we go 03:57:38 PHP Version 5.3.10-1 03:59:40 hm it scrolls to the right quite a bit wow what is that 03:59:52 poor table :( 04:05:08 http://rfc-ref.org/RFC-TEXTS/3875/chapter4.html#d4e442763 04:05:09 this 04:05:11 this is the stupidest thing ever 04:05:13 why would this ever be useful 04:05:23 Maybe I shouldn't keep looking at Factor 04:05:28 Static typing is a good thing 04:11:43 Sgeo: I hear Slava doesn't use Factor these days. 04:11:53 * elliott has no source whatsoever, but heard it. 04:14:24 * Sgeo just wants to know why it's stuck on 0.94 04:15:11 probably because nobody uses it 04:15:25 http://factor-language.blogspot.com/ hasn't had a post since september 2010 so I suspect slava has abandoned it 04:15:59 Any other active concatenative languages? 04:15:59 https://github.com/slavapestov/factor/commits/master hmm, not true perhaps, there are recent commits from him 04:16:17 concatenative languages? 04:17:48 madbr, do you know what Forth is like? 04:17:54 ^^bad explanation oncoming 04:18:06 forth isn't concatenative 04:18:08 But ... functional composition is fundamental 04:18:09 so it's an excellently bad choice 04:18:13 stack based 04:18:16 no 04:18:24 madbr: a concatenative language is one in which concatenation represents composition 04:18:25 elliott, but Forth is stack based, and concatenative languages are stack based, so 04:18:35 i.e. given that p and q are programs, pq is a program representing the composition of p and q 04:18:37 Sgeo: no, they're not 04:18:42 not all concatenative languages are stack-based 04:19:43 madbr: e.g., if you have a primitive program "2" whose semantics is a function which takes a stack and returns that stack with 2 in front, and a primitive program "+" whose semantics is a function which takes a stack, adds the top two elements, and returns that stack with the top two elements replaced by their addition 04:19:54 then the program "2 2 +" is the composition of all of them 04:20:01 resulting in a program which takes a stack and returns that stack with 4 at the top 04:20:03 and so on 04:20:16 so, most stack-based languages are concatenative 04:20:21 but not all concatenative languages are stack-based 04:20:23 it's more general than that 04:20:39 -!- damageinc has left. 04:20:44 !!!:D 04:21:00 huh 04:21:12 ah 04:21:20 i just had to talk about computer science to get him to leave. 04:21:24 funny, that 04:21:29 Neat. 04:21:52 ahah 04:25:36 -!- variable has quit (Excess Flood). 04:30:29 http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/ 04:30:30 \o/ 04:30:30 | 04:30:30 /| 04:30:58 thank you myndzi 04:31:33 /'| 04:36:43 monqy: Sgeo: madbr: can you click around a bunch of pages on http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/ as quickly as you can, I want to measure how much cpu/ram php will take :p 04:36:47 since MW is such a hog 04:37:31 monqy: Sgeo: madbr: ok, you can stop now 04:37:41 not very good but mitigated by the caching 04:37:55 Well, I rapidly Ctrl-Clicked a few links 04:38:08 i was aiming for random page but i accidentally repeatedly hit recent changes 04:38:14 and didn't notice 04:39:20 lol 04:39:48 not that there are really many pages at all 04:40:13 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 04:40:13 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 04:40:13 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 04:40:34 recentchanges probably causes more load than other things 04:40:36 since it can't be cached 04:42:03 elliott, I wonder if GR could help 04:42:29 -!- variable has joined. 04:42:40 (GreenReaper) 04:42:41 AFK 04:43:24 Sgeo: Help with what? 04:43:36 elliott, setting up MW 04:43:39 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:43:42 I assume he knows at least a little bit 04:43:45 The server load is as good as it's going to get without skipping PHP entirely; I have APC caching and the file cache both on and they're working correctly. 04:43:58 I haven't tuned the APC cache yet, but most requests shouldn't hit it in the first place. 04:44:06 What would be nice is if I could make nginx serve cached stuff itself. 04:49:52 Use a C program, perhaps; it is generally faster and more efficient than PHP 04:50:31 yeah, let me know when you have something compatible with the mediawiki wikitext format with the same basic functionality as mediawiki written in C 04:50:40 then I'll consider using a C program :p 04:51:08 madbr: btw i wouldn't bother adding real content unless you're just testing around 04:51:10 this is just a test install 04:51:15 of course if you are just testing around go ahead :P 04:54:39 yeah just copied a page from old esolang to see if it worked 04:55:00 ok, now everyone has to come up with captcha question/answers to use :P 04:55:29 what's the brainfuck character for loop start 04:55:49 multiple choice "what do you think of brainfuck derivatives" 04:55:49 ]! 04:55:52 haha 04:55:57 not multiple choice 04:55:58 it's a text field 04:56:03 you have to enter "brainbricking" 05:00:02 That isn't a very good question; they shouldn't be question about a matter of opinion. Brainfuck character for loop start seem OK to me, although it should occasionally be changed. 05:03:13 elliott, in what way is Forth not concatenative? Is it due to syntactic things like if, because if so, Factor also has syntax that can't just be broken up. 05:06:43 Forth stuff like IF are just words that run at compile time otherwise it is like others. 05:07:46 Sgeo: i forget :) 05:07:56 oh i remember 05:08:10 but am too busy to explain right now, gimme a while 05:09:03 Hmm, destructors remind me of ResourceT 05:12:40 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 05:18:42 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:20:21 Oops, extensible-data-0.1.0.1 also failed although differently 05:20:59 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:29:06 Now I changed the template-haskell dependency to >= 2.5.0.0 && < 2.7 since version 2.6.0.0 still keeps the ClassInstance type which my program depends on, but 2.7.0.0 changes that so that it will stop working, and 2.6.0.0 did build on Hackage in version 7.4 (2.5.0.0 failed with "Illegal instance declaration for `Show Doc'") 05:37:42 -!- adu has joined. 06:19:01 -!- augur has joined. 06:23:46 yay, APC tuned a bit 06:23:58 OK, the only thing left to do MW-wise is to come up with more captchas 06:26:15 Later on would you add , , and tags? There are some pages that could use as well as some pages for raw download 06:27:34 i'll look into it 06:32:17 http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Main_Pafgh 06:32:19 main pafgh 06:44:40 …mkay :-D 06:45:34 You just don't understand the beauty of Main Pafgh. :( 06:52:22 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:58:13 -!- MoALTz has joined. 07:04:47 elliott: I just thought you might like to know that recent Xeon supports 10 core chips in 8 chip configurations. 07:05:13 -j160 anyone with $40,000 to blow? 07:07:24 Heh. 07:09:41 :-) 07:10:17 -!- calamari has joined. 07:30:31 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:47:35 morniiiiiiiiiiing 07:48:54 ...isn't it a good one? :/ 07:57:36 According to some page, it's because Forth doesn't have nested quotation. 07:57:41 http://hyperpolyglot.org/stack 08:01:09 What does nested quotation mean? 08:04:20 [ [ 2 + ] ] 08:04:22 Or whatever 08:04:49 I have implemented something like that in Forth (although [ ] is not used in Forth for quotation, so I named them something else) 08:13:40 If >XT converts an address of an instruction to an XT value, and ` suffix makes a word execute at compile time, and UNRESOLVED-JUMP compiles a jump instruction with a hole for the address, then: : {Q` UNRESOLVED-JUMP HERE >XT ; : Q}` EXIT` SWAP HERE SWAP , COMPILE-LITERAL ; 08:24:32 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 08:44:42 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 08:50:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:56:32 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:15:13 -!- FireFly has quit (Excess Flood). 09:21:02 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:31:53 -!- derdon has joined. 09:56:50 -!- lifthras1ir has quit (*.net *.split). 09:56:50 -!- Gregor has quit (*.net *.split). 09:56:50 -!- ais523 has quit (*.net *.split). 09:56:51 -!- fizzie has quit (*.net *.split). 09:56:51 -!- yorick has quit (*.net *.split). 09:56:51 -!- clog has quit (*.net *.split). 09:56:51 -!- myndzi has quit (*.net *.split). 09:58:20 -!- yorick has joined. 10:00:22 -!- lifthras1ir has joined. 10:00:22 -!- Gregor has joined. 10:00:56 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:00:56 -!- fizzie has joined. 10:00:56 -!- clog has joined. 10:00:56 -!- myndzi has joined. 10:01:35 -!- tzxn3 has joined. 10:06:36 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:09:30 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 10:28:37 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:28:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:31:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:38:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (*.net *.split). 10:38:33 -!- fizzie has quit (*.net *.split). 10:38:33 -!- clog has quit (*.net *.split). 10:38:33 -!- myndzi has quit (*.net *.split). 10:40:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:40:02 -!- fizzie has joined. 10:40:02 -!- clog has joined. 10:40:02 -!- myndzi has joined. 10:58:10 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 10:59:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:59:44 -!- Slereah has joined. 11:12:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:21:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:52:33 oerjan: ~ = aa((!((aa)(!))))*:*^!**^a*^a*aa*(*:*^!**^)*^ 12:52:50 I'll be working through this at some point, but some pointers as to how it works would be useful 12:52:59 in particular, in a hypothetical typed underlambda, would it be typesafe? 12:53:05 there's a pointer on the Talk: page 12:53:16 * ais523 looks 12:53:25 aha, thanks 12:53:35 saves me having to trace it myself 12:54:17 ah, hmm, it seems to show the command about to run, rather than the whole remaining program 12:54:35 ais523: also my comment at the end of that 12:54:40 yep 12:55:14 I'm trying to work out if Underload is denotationally isomorphic to the standard theoretical CPBV interpreters, or if one just simulates the other 12:56:05 what's CPBV 12:56:32 call by push value, it's Paul Levy's pet calling convention, and he's giving a seminar series on it here 12:56:43 hm 12:57:01 it basically embeds both call by name and call by value, using a series of casts, some of which are suspiciously similar to things found in Underload 12:57:12 anyway, i don't think that expression uses any self application, so it should have a fighting chance of being well typed :P 12:58:40 oerjan: does it, say, duplicate an expression, then apply the two copies with two different types? 12:59:25 hm 13:01:17 aa((!(X)))*:*^!**^ _does_ duplicate some, hm 13:01:54 (Y)aa((!(X)))*:*^!**^ = (((Y))(!(X))):*^!**^ 13:02:23 well i guess this all depends on what your type system is 13:03:31 basically Anarchy's; assume that all functions have the type (list->list) for some list type, that each list type is recursively defined in terms of cons, and that you have an unbounded but finite number of different cons operators to use 13:03:36 a naive translation of hindley-milner means you cannot apply a command twice with different types on the stack - even elements you _don't_ touch 13:03:43 you only need the one nil 13:03:55 and hmm, right 13:04:27 chris diggins's Cat got into a lot of trouble due to that stuff 13:04:29 that's actually quite an important point, I suspect 13:04:53 because row polymorphism is something that doesn't obviously generalise well 13:05:15 i hear the latest implementation didn't even try to do static typing 13:05:34 row polymorphism was the word, i think 13:08:46 i suspect there's a reason typed stack languages haven't been done much :P 13:08:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:09:03 well, with type inference at least 13:11:11 right 13:11:22 I'm the sort of person who tries to make that sort of thing work anyway 13:11:31 right :) 13:12:04 like, how do you type ^, you get row polymorphism immediately 13:13:17 hmm, the type of ^ is clearly ((a->b)::a -> b) 13:14:01 where both a and b are rows or what's it called 13:15:11 oerjan: well, a->b would be polymorphic here 13:16:06 with explicit row polymorphism (using A to represent upsidedown-A as I don't know how to type it), it'd be (Au.(At.a++t->b++t)::a++u->b++u) 13:16:07 the thing i recall is, you want a and b to include only the part of the stack which is actually touched 13:16:13 just realised I should use ++ not :: here as it's list concat not cons 13:16:43 but the ts and us work like that on every single function, so you typically just omit them from the type 13:17:00 right 13:17:24 err, (Au.(At.a++t->b++t)++a++u->b++u) 13:17:40 i would intuitively use a notation more similar to underl{oad,ambda} itself... i think diggins did too 13:18:09 so, (a(a->b)->b) 13:18:30 ooh, neat 13:18:52 I was thinking more haskellish, just because I was trying to prove an equivalence between something else and Underload 13:18:58 and knowing Underload, I was focusing on the something else 13:21:43 mhm 13:22:54 ofc, the problem with equivalences is that they go both ways 13:23:13 ^ul (:(x)~^):^ 13:23:26 and it'd be with typed underload, with untyped underload you can write obviously incorrect programs like that one 13:23:28 hey, where's fungot gone? 13:23:29 fizzie: SEVERE FUNGOT SHORTAGE 13:24:07 -!- thutubot has joined. 13:24:11 +ul (:(x)~^):^ 13:24:14 that won't print anything 13:24:16 it's OK, I have a backup 13:24:24 and it should give an out-of-stack error 13:24:27 unless I've messed it up 13:24:33 yep, I've messed it up 13:24:54 +ul ((x)~:^):^ 13:24:57 OH. 13:25:17 now what 13:25:21 ...too much memory used! 13:25:23 now thutubot's pegging my CPU 13:25:29 -!- fungot has joined. 13:25:30 it's OK, it's gone back to normal now 13:25:45 It had ding bimeouted. 13:25:47 ^ul ((x)~:^):^ 13:25:48 ...out of time! 13:26:03 hmm, on fungot it runs out of time before it runs out of stack? 13:26:04 ais523: and thereby forgo all actual assembly files. you _dynamically_ link those to the ignore list 13:26:18 ^ul (((x)~):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*^:^):^ 13:26:18 ...too much stack! 13:26:33 ^style 13:26:33 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 13:26:43 thought so, but wasn't sure 13:26:51 it looks like it comes from a set of instruction manuals 13:26:55 The Underload limits are rather random, since the "time" limit is in fact number of operations, and something like ~ on two about-half-the-maximum-stack strings is like the slow. 13:27:04 fizzie: ooh, new style idea, can you stick an entire set of manpages in there? 13:27:16 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:27:28 I guess I could, though I'm not sure how good it would be. The C64 guidebook is already a bit boring. 13:27:32 ^style c64 13:27:32 Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material) 13:27:37 fungot: Teach me some programmering, please? 13:27:37 fizzie: in the " stack," appears on the screen. what happens when you and your program. 13:27:46 Okay, that was surprisingly funny. 13:28:15 make them BSD rather than Linux manpages, and it'll probably work better 13:28:33 and preferably a shortish number of words of context 13:29:10 oerjan: thutubot's never going to be massively efficient at running Underload because it's written in Thutu 13:29:17 which has a tendency to be O(n) slower than other languages 13:29:19 shocking 13:29:42 Where n is the number of other languages. 13:30:13 fizzie: no, that would be "slower than O(n) other languages" 13:31:15 also, brainfuck looks really weird uncapitalized when it's in a list with other languages 13:31:24 it's not too bad on its own 13:31:41 I wonder if there are any cars with a "my OTHER language is a brainfuck derivative" bumper sticker. 13:33:01 should be the tagline of someone's second esolang, IMO 13:33:10 but I've already made two esolangs 13:33:26 perhaps we could find someone here willing to invent a language and call it moliabd 13:33:56 Even if you have only invented one language, if it isn't a brainfuck derivative you can't honestly make the moliabd. 13:34:14 moliabdenium 13:34:24 fizzie: well, right 13:34:33 but most people's first esolang is a BF derivative 13:34:52 (mine wasn't, btw; I don't think I've put it online, but it was a hex-grid-based 2D language) 13:43:44 i think c should have a parameter on the break keyword so you can specify how many nested levels you want to break out of 13:44:25 itidus20: or better, use labeled break, where you can give a loop a name then specify which loop to break out of by name 13:46:07 ais523: i guess the fact is that it is a sin to want to escape multiple levels of nesting in such languages 13:46:45 nah, it's just that the need for structured programming was quite new back then 13:46:46 ais523: named loops is a cool idea though 13:46:53 people were busy seeing loops and how they were better than gotos 13:47:03 and hadn't finished working out all the sorts of control structure they needed yet 13:47:04 i really really like that 13:47:09 everyone kept going around in circles 13:47:15 it's not my idea; several languages have it 13:47:16 its just so cute.. naming a loop 13:47:19 the one I'm most familiar with that has it is Perl 13:47:52 for mittens (i = 0; i < 10; i++) 13:48:07 that's not the usual syntax, but I like it :) 13:48:16 i was thinking you know... 13:48:27 type identifier conditions :D 13:48:55 because i'm esoteric mothafuka 13:52:52 for x = (int i; i < 10; i++); x {printf("%d \n", i);}; 13:52:56 or..something 13:53:29 surely it'd be x = for, not for x =? 13:53:36 unless I completely misunderstand what you're getting at 13:53:51 actually, hmm, call-by-name languages with currying get that for free 13:56:02 For x; x.initial = "int i = 0"; x.condition = "i < 10"; x.iterator = "i++"; x {printf("%d \n", i);}; 13:56:17 i know it doesn't all make sense. 13:57:00 like you can't just treat pieces of source code like string literals trivially. 13:57:34 oh i see now 13:58:02 itidus20: in call-by-name, you actually can treat pieces of source code like parse tree literals, except that you can't do anything with them but plug in the blanks and run them 13:58:20 printf "%d \n" `mapM_` [0..9] 13:58:40 ok.. this is finally what i have in mind 13:58:44 for x; x.initial = "int i = 0"; x.condition = "i < 10"; x.iterator = "i++"; x.body = "printf("%d \n", i);"; x; 13:58:44 Jafet: are you missing a >? 13:58:55 itidus20: …wow 13:59:05 that's nicely eso 13:59:11 it's like, umm, object-oriented Tcl 13:59:23 I thought that was called ruby 13:59:26 I NAMED THE LOOP x 13:59:43 *dramatic gopher look* 13:59:50 i don't know if call-by-name languages usually massacre lexical scoping like that 14:00:11 oerjan: yeah the actual parts of te code relating to i are all broken 14:00:50 oerjan: they don't, and indeed can't 14:01:00 in CBN with the same syntax it'd start off for x; int i; and otherwise look the same 14:01:10 with i = 0 rather than int i = 0 14:01:22 that way, it'd be the same i (via lexical scoping) in each of the string literals 14:01:45 admittedly, it'd be a weird language that scoped into string literals, but then they're parse tree literals not string literals, which obviously can sensibly contain scoped variables 14:02:00 i guess technically it could be pointers to pieces of code 14:02:17 The numbered multi-level break is a bit on the messy side. 14:02:36 itidus20: that is indeed a common implementation 14:02:55 Doesn't PHP do it? 14:03:09 > printf "%d \n" `mapM_` [0..9::Int] :: String 14:03:10 Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char' 14:03:10 Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char' 14:03:10 against inferred type... 14:03:10 against inferred type... 14:03:24 hmph 14:03:26 oh 14:03:34 > printf "%d \n" =<< [0..9::Int] :: String 14:03:35 "0 \n1 \n2 \n3 \n4 \n5 \n6 \n7 \n8 \n9 \n" 14:03:35 "0 \n1 \n2 \n3 \n4 \n5 \n6 \n7 \n8 \n9 \n" 14:04:57 but since i imposed my topic, time for me to scroll up at what i interrupted 14:05:13 > "Echo!" 14:05:14 "Echo!" 14:05:14 "Echo!" 14:05:16 I have done higher-order functions in PHP before 14:05:39 itidus20: i think the conversation was relatively dead at that point 14:06:02 A PHP function creates another PHP function that, when called, creates an SQL stored procedure 14:06:19 I don't think anyone ever understood that program. 14:06:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Oops). 14:07:08 Higher-order functions are natural in Perl. For example, here's fib with the Y combinator. 14:07:11 !perl print &{&{sub { my $f = shift; return &$f($f); }}(sub { my $f = shift; return sub { my $n = shift; return 1 if $n < 2; return &{&$f($f)}($n-1) + &{&$f($f)}($n-2); }; })}(11); 14:07:12 144 14:07:16 Simple as sliced bread. 14:09:21 (At least I hope it is that; I just grepped for it.) 14:12:18 that's not the Y combinator, that's the mockingbid combinator 14:12:28 *mockingbird 14:12:59 verified both by looking at the combinator itself, and by observing the unusual way the recursive calls are made 14:13:32 Yes, in retrospect &{&$f($f)}($n-1) looks kinda funny. 14:14:01 an interesting use for this is if you were to say for (j = 0; j < 10; j++) {for (i = 0; i < 15; i++) {printf("%d%d\n",i,j)}} equivalent to x(10,15) printf("%d%d\n",x[0],x[1]); 14:14:28 maybe with those last [0] and [1] swapped around 14:15:35 you can of course write a Y-like fixed point combinator in Perl 14:15:48 although you'll end up with the usual debate as to whether an arbitrary least fix point operator is Y or not 14:16:36 you could even change the loop's parameters from within the loop in theory 14:19:11 i guess you can already do that easy enough 14:20:21 itidus20: right, because most imperative languages already use the CBN-like interpretation of control constructs, as they can't sensibly be expressed in call-by-value 14:20:24 except maybe if 14:20:30 such as while (x < n) { if (x > 40) n--; [...] } 14:20:47 itidus20: right, that works in C 14:20:59 because it does a CBN-like re-evaluation of x its not something i would normally think of though 14:21:09 this is the reason that while is a keyword in C, not a standard library function 14:22:16 whereas in a CBN language, you can write while as a function: while(bool condition, com command) {if(condition) {command; while(condition, command);}} 14:22:55 you could also write if as a function, although you'll need a conditional operator in your language /somewhere/ to write the others in terms of 14:23:07 whether it's if or while or ?: or just using a churchish boolean 14:24:44 ahh cb is church boolean ? 14:24:51 (the last method is basically true(com iftrue, com iffalse) {iftrue;} false(com iftrue, com iffalse) {iffalse;}, and now your if is if(condition, iftrue, iffalse) {condition(iftrue,iffalse)} 14:25:01 CBN = call by name, it's a calling convention 14:25:12 oops 14:25:24 in practice, CBN languages tend not to use C-like syntax, although like all syntax it's interchangeable 14:25:33 best-known CBN language is probably Algol 60 14:32:54 !perl print &{&{sub { my $f = shift; return &{sub { my $x = shift; return $f->(sub { my $n = shift; return &{$x->($x)}($n); }); }}(sub { my $x = shift; return $f->(sub { my $n = shift; return &{$x->($x)}($n); }); }); }}(sub { my $f = shift; return sub { my $n = shift; return $n if $n <= 1; return $f->($n-1) + $f->($n-2); }; });}(12); 14:32:55 144 14:33:02 Looks somehow overly complicated, but oh-well. 14:36:16 hmm, is that an actual y, rather than just a simple definition of fixpoint? 14:36:19 I think it might be 14:37:59 It was a translation of (((lambda (f) ((lambda (x) (f (lambda (n) ((x x) n)))) (lambda (x) (f (lambda (n) ((x x) n)))))) (lambda (f) (lambda (n) (if (<= n 1) n (+ (f (- n 2)) (f (- n 1))))))) 12). 14:38:18 yep, that looks like Y all right 14:40:44 > (fix (\f n -> if n <= 1 then n else f (n - 1) + f (n - 2))) 12 14:40:45 144 14:40:45 144 14:40:50 today at work, we broke two of our proofs. 14:41:06 i officially declare this the most fuckfaced shithole of a day in the universe 14:41:53 they proved the same thing and we may have a correction, but it does not have the innocence of the previous ones. 14:42:36 so happy most fuckfaced shithole of a day in the universe to you all 14:43:25 I like the name, we should make this an annual event 14:43:36 Today at work I computed some variances for things by making at least three unwarranted assumptions about the distribution of other things. Man, being an engineer instead of a real scientist is such a leave-your-brain-at-the-door occupation. 14:43:48 oh it will be annual 14:48:52 -!- oklopol has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Happy Most Fuckfaced Shithole of a Day in the Universe to Each and Everyone! :>. 14:49:02 i felt the other crap was unnecessary 14:49:33 oklopol: I was going to do that, but your version is better 14:50:05 i'm feeling better already for doing that 14:50:14 i wonder how to celebrate this most fuckfaced shithole of a day in the universe 14:52:39 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 14:53:37 well you could start by taking something you've spent a ton of effort to do and know to be awesome, spending 45 minutes of 10 ppl's time explaining it and then realizing that it's full of shit and you're a fucking retard. 14:53:44 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:54:09 that's the usual way to celebrate the most fuckfaced shithole of a day in the universe. 14:54:36 ouch 14:57:20 well i didn't even realize it, my colleague did. i just broke the second proof too. 14:58:29 -!- nooga has joined. 14:58:33 it was rather fitting that it turned out to be the 13th 15:02:16 you know, because i'm really really superstitious. 15:02:25 oklopol: we have a known-incorrect proof in a published paper 15:02:36 or to be specific, the proof proves a known-incorrect result 15:02:53 we have the result fixed (it was just a mistake in definitions), but it's kind-of worrying how we proved it if it's wrong 15:04:30 yeah in my master's thesis i ask this question about whether this class called UFA is closed under union, and explained why i believe it's not (it would be a surprising result). it was certainly in the top10 most interesting things in there, and when i looked more closely into the definitions, i realized it's trivially closed under union. 15:04:47 i have fixed this in our later article, and it's really just because the definition was wrong. 15:07:43 so this girl i know realized that her second most preferred career choice is out of the question after two days in there. 15:07:46 today. 15:08:07 i think i may be made out of magic. 15:08:12 sorry if i fuck up your day. 15:17:29 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:17:38 Hello! 15:18:13 Taneb: Careful there, you might catch some sucky-dayness from oklopol. 15:19:03 -!- Taneb has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | We do esolangs. Deal with it.. 15:19:08 Much better topic 15:19:19 That was a short-lived topic. 15:19:20 -!- oklopol has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Happy Most Fuckfaced Shithole of a Day in the Universe to Each and Everyone! :>. 15:19:27 -!- oklopol has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Happy Most Fuckfaced Shithole of a Day in the Universe to Each and Everyone! :> | Deal with it.. 15:20:57 -!- Gregor has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Happy Most Duckfaced Piffle of a Day in the Universe to Each and Everyone! :> | Deal with it.. 15:22:22 -!- oklopol has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Happy Even Topics Suck Ass Day to Each and Everyone! :> | Deal with it.. 15:22:50 -!- Gregor has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Happy Even Topics Suck Donkey Day to Each and Everyone! :> | Deal with it.. 15:23:39 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:26:00 -!- oklopol has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ |http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Happy Odd Topics Suck Donkey Day to Each and Everyone! :> | Deal with it.. 15:28:28 excuse me but does this topic have two log links 15:28:36 that's silly. 15:29:31 why is it that silly? 15:33:06 you're a bot so you wouldn't understand. 15:37:39 you only understand two things 15:38:42 > "did I fix this bug yet?" 15:38:44 "did I fix this bug yet?" 15:38:44 "did I fix this bug yet?" 15:38:47 apparently not 15:41:55 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:50:07 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:53:49 -!- itidus20 has joined. 15:59:09 -!- kallisti has joined. 15:59:09 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 15:59:09 -!- kallisti has joined. 16:00:22 :t let f n a b = a `mod` n == b in f 2 16:00:23 forall t. (Integral t) => t -> t -> Bool 16:00:23 forall t. (Integral t) => t -> t -> Bool 16:01:07 yo dawg I heard you like equivalence classes, so we made your integers congruent and ... actually I can't make this into a yo dawg meme so I'm just going to stop now. 16:02:25 kallisti: you dawg I heard you like equivalence classes, so I put some integers in your car so you can make them congruent while you drive 16:13:11 -!- calamari has joined. 17:02:18 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:06:59 so 17:07:31 as i am showing this weird thing i did to several channels, will also say so in here 17:08:13 i had this idea, and i made a mockup of it using donkey kong pictures http://oi42.tinypic.com/ddgimt.jpg it got shrunk down quite a bit on upload.. but it didn't lose any quality in the process really 17:08:38 this is the original pics for reference: http://www.mobygames.com/game/nes/donkey-kong/screenshots 17:10:02 +quit 17:10:09 * ais523 glares at thutubot 17:10:13 -!- thutubot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:10:18 (I just quit it manually) 17:11:26 Manually ... WITH YOUR MIND! 17:11:30 OOO-EEE-OOO 17:12:30 yeah i got this idea from the torus discussions in here 17:13:40 btw, what's the evaluation strategy called where every function call in the code is pure and you know the argument it'll get already, you start running it in a different thread to see what value it produces, and kill the thread once you go out of scope (i.e. the function would get another argument next time)? 17:13:46 I think it was discussed in here a while back 17:13:50 -!- azaq23 has joined. 17:13:55 and my supervisor just independently reinvented it 17:14:08 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 17:14:09 Um, pure futures? 17:14:11 it sounds crazy, but we realised it's actually one of the most efficient strategies around for hardware compilation 17:14:31 That's not really an evaluation strategy, but entails one. 17:14:41 (pure futures, that is) 17:14:54 well, this is an evaluation strategy that could be used as written with, say, Haskell 17:15:06 (whose purity makes it very easy to use arbitrary evaluation strategies with it) 17:15:23 (if they deal with nontermination correctly, and that one does by killing the thread if termination status is irrelevant) 17:23:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:31:32 -!- ais523_ has joined. 17:32:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 17:32:40 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 17:59:43 -!- augur has joined. 18:01:35 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:05:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:06:34 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:06:43 Hello! 18:07:02 You know what's weird> 18:07:21 I think I'm reading a book that a fictional character in a different book which I am also reading is reading 18:07:49 thats pretty cool 18:10:17 The books are Fermat's Last Theorem by Simon Singh and The Girl Who Played With Fire by Steig Larrsson 18:10:52 s/ei/ie/ 18:10:56 s/rr/r/ 18:12:23 there is an idea which might only make sense to me, related to misheard song lyrics and fictional characters 18:13:04 Go on 18:13:20 but anyway, by reading a preview or review of something.. or seeing a trailer of something 18:13:52 I got this build error for my package: "Something is amiss; requested module template-haskell-2.6.0.0:Language.Haskell.TH differs from name found in the interface file template-haskell:Language.Haskell.TH" Did I do something wrong or is Hackage wrong? 18:13:59 you can end up imagining what the story might be about, filling in the gaps. and this imagining itself is an act of creation. 18:14:14 itidus20: O, yes, then make up such a thing. 18:14:44 a similar thing can happen when you mishear song lyrics you end up with a unique song, which only barely makes sense to you because you were desperate to make some sense out of it 18:15:25 The story of my D&D game has a few gaps (they are mostly marked with square brackets; I forgot what happened), so maybe someone can help me to make up something there 18:15:59 itidus20, heh, I ended up with an epic love song called "I am a running tap" via that mechanism 18:16:01 sometimes, in song lyrics you can discover yourself warping grammar a bit in fun ways.. and perhaps credit the song author with interesting use of grammar which he doesn't deserve since its not his lyrics 18:16:08 Of course, epic love song is a bit of an oxymoron 18:16:40 I have read some things about misheard song lyrics. Usually the music I listen has no lyrics; it is instrumental. 18:17:11 one of my favorites is "even flow... on the road like porno stars.. he don't know..so he chases them (the porno stars?) away 18:17:56 another is.. 18:18:19 there is a lot in (the words) "who is a devil?" you can't survive so i'll be your guide 18:19:36 real one is "Now who's the light and who is the devil. You can't decide so i'll be your guide." 18:19:48 i may have used decide in my version 18:21:41 and "Even flow, thoughts arrive like butterflies. Oh, he don't know so he chases them away, yeah" 18:24:07 so, unfortunately as time goes on i find that things are rarely as cool as i first imagine them to be 18:26:25 i guess its also quite common to underestimate lyrics when you don't actually hear them 18:27:13 so its interesting that singing isn't merely about communicating a stream of words 18:32:28 zzo38: worlds inspired by such things from my firsthand experience can be exciting to create. 18:36:07 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:37:18 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:54:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:07:04 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:35:48 The next Gunnerkrigg will be #1000 19:43:21 I'm not entirely sure if /I/ care. 19:44:04 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: food). 19:47:23 /I/ was confused by "#1000"; was all "what sort of color code is that, shouldn't it have either three or six (or 12) digits, is that like a *really* bright #fff." 19:47:55 fizzie: clearly it's an entirely transparent dark red 19:48:15 just like #F990 is an appropriate color for an invisible pink unicorn 19:49:24 For some reason I'd've put the alpha channel first. 19:51:46 urxvt accepts colour specifications of the form "rgba:RRRR/GGGG/BBBB/AAAA", where the uppercase letters are hex digits. 19:52:02 RGBA is the normal order 19:52:36 #1000 is the blink bit - that's blinking black 19:52:58 adding #2000 makes it a marquee 19:53:29 (and #4000 is a tiling under construction gif?) 19:54:06 -!- azaq23 has joined. 19:54:12 Sure, it's the normal order, but for some reason when in four-digit "#xxxx", I'd've done ARGB. 19:55:16 I think Inkscape's color-selector has an eight-hex-digits field of the color being selected. 19:56:05 -!- tzxn3 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:56:22 -!- tzxn3 has joined. 19:57:53 "Unlike RGB values, there is no hexadecimal notation for an RGBA value." (CSS3.) Aw. 19:58:19 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:01:26 -!- elliott has joined. 20:01:44 I've added more CAPTCHAs to the test wiki at http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Main_Page; prizes to anyone who fills out all of them without looking them up 20:01:50 (there's five in total) 20:02:21 Uhhhhh, CAPTCHAs shouldn't be hard enough to deserve prizes X-D 20:02:30 "without looking them up" 20:02:45 Normal use probably involves looking them up 20:02:52 AFK 20:03:03 Oh, they come with a link. 20:03:06 OK, so it's just "read" 20:03:20 yep, the CAPTCHA is basically about ability to parse and understand English 20:03:25 which is a hard task for computers at current 20:03:36 and follow URLs, which is a hard task for someone being paid to fill out CAPTCHAs out of context 20:03:57 elliott: I imagine those people probably have web browsers by now 20:04:07 ok i have seen the first captcha.. and i can't answer it without looking it up :D 20:04:11 -!- Gregor has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Resistance is not tolerated. 20:04:14 I heard they're usually just presented with it out of context, but who knows 20:04:17 main reason to do that is to make the captchas hard to MitM 20:04:30 which is a moderately uncommon trick, but has been known to work 20:04:39 or, I guess it's a reverse-MitM 20:04:45 man in front 20:05:15 itidus20: which one was it? 20:05:24 Who cated Unlambda? 20:05:30 ^created 20:05:35 ah 20:05:58 i went to add blah2 to ehird's user page 20:06:05 Who catered UnlambdaCon 2011? 20:06:18 itidus20: the link in that one actually works 20:06:22 for getting the answer 20:06:34 I didn't bother adding articles for the new three, though 20:06:37 it first appeared to me that the edit had worked.. so i went to click on main page 20:06:51 and it said.. Leave Page Stay on page 20:06:57 and i thought huh? 20:07:07 thats when i noticed the captcha subtly placed 20:07:12 mwahaha, I have successfully spammed the wiki, your captcha has failed 20:07:13 yeah, it's hard to notice :( 20:07:22 Yeah, the appearance of the CAPTCHA is a bit surprising. 20:07:25 I wish it came in a box or something 20:07:30 its not that hard to notice 20:07:32 having said that, it looks the same on the current esowiki 20:07:50 olsner: Gregor: itidus20: Did you notice the "Blah blah blah blah!" at the top of the pages? 20:07:55 ais523 didn't, so I'm worried that it's not noticeable enough 20:08:04 (it'll contain server migration/technical problem contact information for a week or so) 20:08:07 I noticed it, but it was just "Blah blah", so uh 20:08:17 They'll be *helpful* blahs! 20:09:09 elliott: [not giving serious critic here] reading this chat, it reminds me of one of those evil super mario bros hacks ... as if it is booby trapped 20:09:10 elliott: yes, but I didn't reflect over the fact that it was not part of the wiki-page content (which already was full of spam and Blah Blah-like stuff) 20:09:26 olsner: heh 20:09:48 "did you spot the blahblablah?" "did you spot the captcha?" 20:09:48 itidus20: you're accusing an IRC channel of being a kaizohack? 20:09:56 elliott: yes, but I didn't reflect over the fact that it was not part of the wiki-page content (which already was full of spam and Blah Blah-like stuff) // agreed 20:10:12 ais523: no no no... no no... not at all no... just the wiki 20:10:13 I had to reopen the page to realize that there was a blah blah there and that I had already seen it 20:10:43 i guess thats the idea 20:10:54 it will probably be more noticeable above http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page 20:10:56 to make spambots feel as if they are playing a kaizohack 20:11:03 but I'll try and make it a little more obvious 20:11:05 oh, I see 20:11:09 elliott: don't go too easy on them though 20:11:25 elliott: it'd probably help the most if it was an actual sentence 20:11:29 the more of a kaizohack it is the better 20:11:30 itidus20: To commit changes, you have to hit this P switch before going through the goal? 20:11:50 sentences usually give some clue to why they're there and what they're about 20:12:45 LAME sentences. 20:13:02 Gregor: the "save page" button will hide if you try to use it 20:13:25 -!- MoALTz has joined. 20:13:26 uhmm 20:13:28 uhmm 20:14:07 Gregor: heh, the wiki for a while actually had a "your edit looks like spam, if you try to submit it again you will be blocked unless you put this specific string in the edit summary somewhere" 20:14:09 as a test 20:14:41 And what was wrong with that that the test had to go? 20:15:01 hm 20:15:04 how clever are the esowiki spammers? C2 wiki had a nice simple password system for a long time that was basically "Enter the password: [....] (the password is 1234)" 20:15:05 Gregor: it prevented people linking to example.com 20:15:28 http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Main_Page OK, how about now? 20:15:28 olsner: we have many different spammers; the current ones seem to know about MediaWiki in particular, but not esolang in particular 20:15:40 Gregor: that's not a very good method of recognising spambots 20:15:49 It's more noticeable, but doesn't seem obtrusive on e.g. http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Univar to my eye. 20:16:33 elliott: My only complaint is that it should read "We've moved servers! If you experience any problems, too god damn bad." 20:16:46 Gregor: Noted. 20:17:28 ais523: (any complaints?) 20:17:37 -!- olsner has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Resistance is frowned upon. 20:17:40 olsner: Probably not very clever, but at least one of them can solve the arithmetic captcha we currently have. 20:17:51 (Which is just a trivial textual addition (or sometimes subtraction, I think).) 20:18:03 They might not be able to solve a copy of the C2 CAPTCHA, but only because they don't know about it. 20:18:13 elliott: it's a bit obtrusive, but in a position where I can easily scroll it away, so I don't mind 20:18:18 -!- kallisti has joined. 20:18:18 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 20:18:18 -!- kallisti has joined. 20:18:48 ok ok i just had a cool idea 20:18:59 ok its probably not cool but ill spell it out 20:19:30 well, if they don't know about esowiki specifically they won't figure out anything the least custom we make regardless of how easy it is? or will some human involve itself after they notice a wiki that doesn't work? 20:19:32 so.. the capctha looks like an ordinary captcha... but it doesn't have any text in it whatsoever.. just fragments pretending to be text 20:19:48 and... it has a random colour background 20:20:10 and you get people to type in the colour of the background in natural language 20:20:34 olsner: rule #1: don't overestimate the intelligence of spammers 20:20:36 i know its trouble for colourblind and blind though 20:21:08 so you just say, "what is this?" and show mostly a block of colour, with a few fragments of another colour 20:21:15 olsner: even if they notice they're not going to put time/effort into targeting a custom wiki. They have spambots that work with mediawiki specifically because it's so common and allows them to spam to many many different sites. 20:21:25 itidus20: presumably blind people will have no problem inspecting the HTML and extracting the color value 20:21:28 http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Main_Page ;; I improved the colours :P 20:21:50 I doubt they would care that they can no longer target esowiki. 20:22:05 olsner: not the worst idea though eh? 20:22:48 Rule 2: don't underestimate the desirability of the sought-after esolang market to spammers. 20:23:05 They know where the big money is. 20:23:15 I bet fizzie can fill in all the CAPTCHAs without looking them up. 20:23:18 haha, I could use AbuseFilter to allow, say, only one BF derivative to be added to the wiki per day 20:23:38 I bet I don't even know how to see them all. 20:23:54 fizzie: Try to edit http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Main_Page repeatedly. 20:23:57 There are five (5) unique ones. 20:24:04 (You can just submit without filling in to get the next one.) 20:24:06 OR 20:24:11 Maybe I'll just tell you them. 20:24:22 fizzie: 20:24:28 (Nobody answer these.) 20:24:32 When was Underload created? 20:24:34 Who created Unlambda? 20:24:38 What does IRP stand for? 20:24:46 What language was the wire-crossing problem first considered for? 20:24:53 What INTERCAL variant uses ternary rather than binary? 20:24:56 honestly I think you would completely stop spam if you just changed some of the names/ids of elements on the page. 20:25:04 ...seriously. 20:25:07 kallisti: I don't 20:25:09 maybe you could make it so that underload is the only captcha question? remembering 2006 is not that hard, but the name of the guy who created unlambda is, like, more than 3 unique characters 20:25:19 kallisti: Yes, everyone has an obvious, trivial, obstruction-free solution to spam that doesn't work. 20:25:19 with modern spambot frameworks, you'd apparently have to add extra elements in random places too 20:25:35 and make them not invisible 20:25:43 although you could make them very small and hide them behind other things 20:25:52 and then you'd confuse people using screen readers, etc 20:26:06 anyway, as i sincerely have nothing better to do, this is the mockup of my captcha idea http://oi43.tinypic.com/2j8ho7.jpg 20:26:16 not to be taken seriously 20:26:27 elliott: you really like to exaggeate things out of proportion don't you? 20:26:31 +r 20:26:57 I did the element-id-renaming on one phpbb, and it worked when I did it, but then later on stopped. 20:27:04 kallisti: I exaggerated nothing except for "everyone". 20:27:19 fizzie: STILL WAITING FOR YOUR ANSWERS. 20:27:34 itidus20: What you seem to have missed is that it's really really easy for a computer to solve. 20:27:40 elliott: via PM, presumably? 20:27:53 itidus20: Take the largest area, take its RGB colour, look up in an RGB -> colour name database. 20:27:58 ais523: Sure. 20:27:58 itidus20: and also hard for a human to work out what it's getting at 20:28:07 elliott: but it has to want to 20:28:13 itidus20: what 20:28:21 itidus20: the current Esolang spammers know the workings of its CAPTCHA 20:28:30 this may well be because it's the one that comes with MediaWiki by default 20:28:32 in fact, probably is 20:28:39 fizzie: yes, they would probably have to make some kind of custom script with the new ids (or you know the obvious solution like AI botnet hivemind). 20:28:39 fizzie: By the way, did you download the forum? I got Deewiant to do it since I don't trust only one Finn. 20:28:47 ais523: it's the "baseline" ConfirmEdit captcha, so yes 20:29:08 kallisti: Or just going by element order. 20:29:15 yes 20:29:23 elliott: one secret is by not actually having the world colour anywhere on the captcha 20:29:24 fizzie: By the way, did you download the forum? I got Deewiant to do it since I don't trust only one Finn. <-- http://qdb.rawrnix.com/?615 20:29:33 ^word 20:29:38 Oh, I didn't realize I was supposed to answer them. Meh, not gonna. I'm so bad about time, I don't really have a clue about the when thing, except I have a feeling it might've been sometime the last decade. 20:29:40 "... since I don't trust only one Finn." - and you trust two finns *more*? 20:29:47 itidus20: that just makes it harder for humans without making it harder for computers 20:30:05 ais523: the computer is supposed to be tricked by the black dots 20:30:10 which is not normally a desirable property for CAPTCHAs 20:30:12 And no, I forgotteded about it, then remembered, then forgotteded. 20:30:17 hehe :-s 20:30:40 itidus20: the problem with CAPTCHAs is that most spammers can spare the time to have one human configure them for each site they come across 20:30:44 and just let them spam from there 20:30:46 olsner: Two Finns are better than one. 20:31:28 I bet olsner knows all the answers. 20:31:32 I bet SOMEONE knows all the answers. 20:31:34 Apart from ais523. 20:33:06 hmm, SOMEONE should be an acronym (or that thing everyone calls an acronym but really isn't?) for something 20:33:20 OK, the TODO list before the new esowiki can go live: Figure out the preferences weirdness, get stuff automated, prepare server, contact Graue. 20:33:23 olsner: an acronym is an initialism that is also a real word 20:33:41 ... and figure out why http://95.149.228.149:8181/w/ isn't redirecting to /wiki/Main_Page 20:33:41 ok what about 20:34:00 a captcha where you have to pick the sexy person versus the ugly person? 20:34:01 is also a real word? or has the same letters? I think words and same-lettered acronyms should be separate entities 20:34:25 itidus20: subjective... 20:34:31 but not that much 20:34:45 it could be tinkered with by the editor 20:34:49 also, 50/50 chance of getting it right, just keep guessing 20:34:56 ah shit 20:34:56 oh, something I'd like a bit of advice on: I'd like to write a CGI script that takes a user-entered path, and returns a file with that name in a particular directory tree, while counting the fact it was requested 20:35:11 basically, acting like an HTTP fileserver except that it has a hit counter 20:35:31 a) remove anonymous edits b) require a captcha on the create account page c) obfuscate the form field labels by using "for" attributes that point to the incorrect form field (does this break legitimate software somewhere?) d) move the captcha to the bottom of the create account form, thus changing the element order of forms. 20:35:33 except that I have to write it in PHP, and am not sure how to secure it to avoid, say, directory traversal attacks, or even shell injection attacks because this is PHP we're talking about 20:35:53 kallisti: a) require a CAPTCHA for anonymous edits 20:35:54 itidus20: There's already a CAPTCHA based on image distinguishing. 20:35:57 (Asirra; cat vs. dog) 20:36:03 ais523: captchas aren't really a big deal. 20:36:06 but yes that would be good. 20:36:12 and obfuscating labels really does break legitimate software 20:36:24 kallisti: (a) Unacceptable, (b) already done, (c) breaks normal browsers and makes unusable for disabled people, (d) idiotic 20:36:25 kallisti: removing anonymous editing /is/ a big deal, IMO 20:36:34 well that's unfortunate because it tells the spambot exactly where to go. 20:36:53 elliott: I only see a math solver thing 20:36:56 what 20:36:59 on the create account page. 20:37:02 kallisti: that /is/ the CAPTCHA 20:37:06 unfortunately, it sucks as a CAPTCHA 20:37:08 http://95.149.228.149:8181/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&type=signup&returnto=Main+Page 20:37:23 find john conner.. 20:37:24 and the spambots routinely break it 20:37:29 he will stop the captchas 20:37:33 oh, extra TODO: get email working 20:37:37 elliott: what are you doing about importing accounts in the server change, btw? 20:37:38 ais523: news flash: programs good at math. 20:37:53 kallisti: news flash: programs bad at parsing the fact that they have to solve math 20:38:04 the problem with that CAPTCHA is that it only needs human intervention to break /once/ 20:38:12 this is the same as the problem with changing element order, or changing round labels 20:38:19 only need human intervention once to defeat 20:38:33 ok so a subjective question is needed with a wide range of possible answers 20:38:37 elliott: explain to me how changing the element order of the form is an idiotic way to prevent spambots from using the standard mediawiki element order to create an account? 20:38:44 itidus20: to make it harder to /judge/? 20:38:47 ais523: technically, this CAPTCHA only needs human intervention once, it's just a tedious and unautomatable once 20:38:56 kallisti: Because it's a waste of time compared to just using a decent CAPTCHA. 20:39:01 elliott: right, this is the main reason to have a lot of questions 20:39:20 olsner pointed out that if its a 2 option question then they will quickly get it right like flipping a coin waiting for heads 20:39:21 actually, potential problem: the spambots are told the answer to one question, then they try it on every CAPTCHA in the hope the question will come up again 20:39:29 there's no penalty for CAPTCHA fails, is there? 20:39:51 elliott: hmmm, perhaps. I don't know the success rate of CAPTCHA solvers on these so-called "good" CAPTCHAs. but they appear to be successful on most of the internet, so.... 20:39:56 I guess if any do that I just abusefilter them, also checkuser them 20:40:26 kallisti: apparently the most common sort of captcha OCR works badly on Wikipedia's, but the second-most-common works quite well 20:40:51 ("captcha OCR" = "OCR designed to break captchas rather than digitise more normal text) 20:41:22 ais523: wow, Wikipedia's main page was only protected in 2006 20:41:55 2006 is before people started systematically trolling it 20:42:14 ais523: anyway, yes, ConfirmEdit has a documented lack of penalty 20:42:16 *penalties 20:43:13 these questions are good. 20:43:15 AbuseFilter can be set to block an entire /16 without warnings, incidentally, but that seems a little excessive to me 20:43:19 -!- monqy has joined. 20:43:26 I usually look up how large the range the IP is part of is, and block that 20:43:36 hopefuly no question database is going to have esolang related questions. Though I have no idea how spambots acquire question databases in the first place. 20:43:47 ais523: hmm, it occurs to me that spammers dislike CAPTCHA solving software too 20:43:58 they use distorted text in images for email spam, after all 20:44:15 hmm, perhaps we can set the two groups against each other 20:44:24 and have confirming email as spam or not /as a CAPTCHA/ 20:44:34 wow, I want to implement that now 20:44:35 unexpectedly awesome idea? 20:44:47 (note: you need to be willing to allow random strangers to read your email) 20:44:58 ais523: what if gmail is secretly a spam botnet. 20:45:01 then we're so fucked. 20:45:07 ais523: nah, just set up a bunch of honeypot email accounts 20:45:10 with their address all over the 'net 20:45:16 and use the data to train a spam filter for actual users 20:45:17 kallisti: it isn't secretly a spam botnet, because it's reasonably openly a spam botnet 20:45:25 elliott: but they wouldn't get legitimate emails 20:45:31 ??? 20:45:31 so the CAPTCHA would be solved by labeling them all as spam 20:45:37 ais523: hmm... encourage people to send fake legitimate emails :P 20:45:45 kallisti: gmail's the source of a reasonably large percentage of the world's spam 20:46:03 ais523: people /using/ gmail or the software behind gmail? I think we're talking about two different things. 20:46:05 elliott: it wouldn't be anywhere near the spam in volume 20:46:10 elliott: people using gmail 20:46:15 *kallisti: 20:46:16 elliott: there you go 20:46:18 :P 20:46:47 right, I was just making a bad joke, that if gmail were a spambot then it could easily distinguish which emails are spam. 20:46:51 ais523: write a botnet to send fake legitimate mail, then 20:47:11 elliott: hmm, then you could subscribe to its non-spam 20:47:14 and be a lot less lonely 20:47:22 and get patches for AceHack, etc 20:47:24 it'd be great 20:47:28 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Spam_image.jpg I feel dizzy... 20:48:06 ais523: that's just about the saddest thing i ever heard get said 20:48:07 elliott: wtf 20:48:17 wtf? 20:48:19 at the commons link 20:48:32 it illustrates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_spam 20:48:48 wait, does that mean the image spam is freely-licensed? 20:49:24 elliott: it was probably sent by a spambot to one of those people with signatures saying they own the copyright of anything you email to them 20:49:49 heh 20:51:16 wow, seeing Monobook after using Vector for a while is weird 20:51:19 elliott: wow it's a captcha ad. 20:51:21 this is why you can't have a babylon where everyone freely understands each other 20:51:24 a captcha-fied ad 20:51:26 that's amazing. 20:51:27 Lately I've been getting rather amusing "follow-ups" to the usual "here's a lot of money for you" spams. I'm sort of wondering if there's already a large market of people who've already responded to regular spam, and are therefore "primed" for stuff like this: http://p.zem.fi/ikvv 20:51:55 It's got the all. 20:51:57 bots are empowered by everyone in the community dividing against each other (with the bots)... as if to force division 20:52:09 World Court and German businessmen and everything. 20:52:18 fizzie: that's amazing 20:52:48 i mean it is quite possible for tribal languages to spring up of a guarded nature so that their captchas can't be figured out 20:52:56 ais523: you should click fizzie's link 20:52:59 oh, btw, you need to ban elliott for spamming the channel with viagra ads. 20:53:14 elliott: sorry, was distracted 20:53:45 * kallisti wonders why audio captchas are not frequently used. 20:53:49 wow, the first paragraph really /is/ a single sentence, I was getting a little dizzy parsing it 20:53:59 kallisti: many people use the internet in a situation where they can't easily get sound 20:54:01 And that wasn't the only "follow-up" style one; I also got one from the "bank guy" who's actually doing the money reassignment, warning me that the people I've been conversing with are scammers who haven't paid him his $10k, but that he's willing to make a deal directly with me. 20:54:13 I guess because audio in HTML is kind of a pain in the ass (or is for the time being until HTML5 audio becomes completely safe across all commonly used browsers) 20:54:18 ais523: ah yes 20:54:19 kallisti: they're annoying 20:54:39 kallisti: also, understanding them can be hard compared to image captchas 20:54:43 right. 20:54:47 because of the noise. 20:54:49 and such. 20:54:50 especially across cultures (accents, etc.) 20:54:57 hm 20:55:04 animated CAPTCHAs? is this a thing people do? 20:55:07 your name has been enlisted in the WORLD SCAM RECORDS as a top 11 fraudster 20:55:13 kallisti: haven't you seen them? 20:55:14 this spam is awesome 20:55:19 kallisti: the captchas with the car ads 20:55:21 monqy: no? 20:55:32 or were they static I forget 20:55:32 I live in a world without ads. 20:55:38 [[ We have also spread our networks to the following countries which are 20:55:38 Australia, Canada, Africa, United Kingdom, Asia and Poland.]] 20:55:41 anyway, captcha that's also a car ad 20:55:43 monqy: maybe you were tripping when you saw them 20:55:44 Africa and Asia are my favourite countries 20:55:47 except the text isn't obscured at all 20:55:47 and they appeared to be animated. 20:55:52 ais523: I liked the $20M they sort-of offhand mention in one paragraph, and then never again later. 20:55:57 so it's just a car ad and you have to write down the name of the car 20:55:58 fizzie: so do I 20:56:00 kallisti: there's "ad captchas" 20:56:04 kallisti: they're disgusting 20:56:09 because they're not actually captchas 20:56:12 right, I'm talking about "captcha captchas" 20:56:15 and no bot would have problems solving them 20:56:15 that are animated. 20:56:22 but you're forced to type in marketspeak bullshit to get past them 20:56:27 wow parsing this message gives me a headache 20:56:34 The FREE CITIZEN CERTIFICATE also goes from $90 to $140 inexplicably. (Inflation?) 20:56:56 fizzie: I that they say it costs $90 and ask for $140 20:57:01 I'm guessing that it's their cut for notifying you 20:57:08 perhaps it's even a scam MitM attack 20:57:10 wow, those with Flash: http://www.adscaptcha.com/ take a look at the slide-to-fit/simple code integration 20:57:16 it's absolutely impossible for a bot to slide a slider all the way! 20:57:27 where one bunch of scamsters skip off $50 and give the other $90 to the bunch they're MitMing 20:57:53 oh.... that's what you meant by captcha ads 20:57:53 wow 20:57:55 that's gross. 20:58:01 elliott: actually, Flash CAPTCHAs seem like a reasonable idea, just to suck up all the spambot's CPU time 20:58:18 that's a sick amalgamation of two tedious things about the internet, combined into one. 20:58:21 kallisti: that one is actually obscured though 20:58:27 let me try and find the worst one 20:58:34 which is just making you watch an ad then type in unobscured text 20:58:45 yeah that's the one I was thinking of 20:58:49 kallisti: http://www.solvemedia.com//advertisers.html 20:58:52 ais523: oh.. haha.. brilliant 20:59:08 they found a way to defeat captchas.. just put them on porn sites and make humans type them to view the porn 20:59:08 ais523: thats thinking 20:59:14 elliott: "wasted attention" good one 20:59:30 http://www.solvemedia.com//images/research.png 20:59:33 calamari: my god..... 20:59:41 calamari: that's known as CAPTCHA MitMing, but it doesn't actually work too well 20:59:50 elliott: STOP SPAMMING AAAAAAH 20:59:56 * elliott pronounces MitMing as "mitt-ming" 20:59:59 -!- Taneb has joined. 21:00:03 ais523: works well enough.. tons of spam on 4chan 21:00:05 elliott: is there another way to pronounce it? 21:00:10 compared to just hiring minimum-wage workers in a country with low minimum wages 21:00:12 Hello 21:00:31 ais523: ah maybe thats it then 21:00:34 calamari: and what's the point in spamming 4chan? 21:00:48 ais523: to link back to their porn site 21:00:51 not to mention, if you spammed 4chan you'd probably end up with naked pictures of yourself all over the Internet 21:00:52 s/4chan/any website/ 21:01:13 kallisti: M I T M ing 21:01:24 Taneb: prize for solving all five captchas on http://95.149.228.149:8181/wiki/Main_Page without looking the answers up 21:01:26 oh, right. 21:01:40 * kallisti didn't parse it as an acronym followed by -ing 21:01:44 ais523: so you mean for example, demanding 30 seconds of cpu time for the privilege of viewing the captcha's question decoded? 21:01:49 -!- Taneb has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Resistance is frowned upon, thus voltage is frowned upon times currant.. 21:01:52 not to mention, if you spammed 4chan you'd probably end up with naked pictures of yourself all over the Internet 21:01:55 ais523: I take it you speak from experience 21:02:05 elliott: no, I haven't tested this 21:02:08 MitMing sounds like some kind of trendy internet business name. 21:02:15 XD 21:02:18 ...What captchas 21:02:23 Taneb: try to edit the page 21:02:24 CA-CAPTCHA: it runs a 2D CA on a HTML5 canvas, then asks you to describe the result. 21:03:14 the result is a car ad 21:03:18 what would make a good addition to a CAPTCHA: supply a random string, ask for a string to append for it which ends up with an SHA1 hash starting with an appropriate number of zeros 21:03:18 Cha-cha-chaptcha 21:03:21 Oh god I have no idea 21:03:25 fizzie: come on that's just silly. 21:03:29 that could happen to the user in the background while they were filling in the login form 21:03:34 * kallisti casually scrolls up and reads all the other ideas that have been posted. 21:03:43 Underload was created... '97? 21:03:53 Taneb: wow 21:03:54 hey, even I don't know that one off by heart, and it was me who created it 21:03:56 i think ais has really hit on something... sacrificing cpu time to decode the captcha image to slow down the spambot 21:04:02 Wire corssing problem... Befunge? 21:04:11 Taneb: 2006; you can get a second-place prize for doing the others 21:04:13 correct 21:04:23 itidus20: that's [[Hashcash]] 21:04:37 itidus20: the problem is that javascript/Flash are really slow compared to hand-optimised C, which is what the spambots can use 21:04:37 hashcash is for email 21:04:40 whereas this is for webforums 21:04:43 you could have some kind of time/memory consuming process that runs on the page. normally users would kill the JS when prompted to do so, spambots probably wouldn't (?????) 21:04:45 so it's basically a browser vs. spambot optimisation war 21:04:47 * kallisti worst idea ever. 21:04:53 this is totally not obvious and I deserve a patent with millions in license fees 21:05:02 INTERCAL variant... AAARGH 21:05:05 I don't know INTERCAL 21:05:11 Taneb: just guess 21:05:11 TINTERCAL 21:05:14 ...Is it CLC-INTERCAl? 21:05:16 calamari: nope 21:05:17 Taneb: nope 21:05:22 I knew that one 21:05:25 try http://google.com 21:05:25 the answer was TriINTERCAL 21:05:27 NEXT CAPTCHA 21:05:27 weird then.. it accepted that 21:05:34 calamari: are you sure? 21:05:44 no 21:05:48 Unlambda... oh come on I know this 21:05:57 Except I really don't./ 21:06:07 Taneb: david madore 21:06:07 I know who didn't create it 21:06:18 Taneb: I know more than one person who didn't create it 21:06:23 Taneb: only one more to fail at! :P 21:06:28 I didn't create it. 21:06:32 hmm, all this reminds me that esolangs maybe wouldn't make an ideal specialist subject for me on Mastermind 21:06:43 not that I'm planning to apply for Mastermind 21:06:49 ais523: I somewhat doubt they'd even allow that as a subject 21:06:52 IRP... Internet Relay Program? 21:06:53 Taneb: if it makes you feel any better, Unlambda is not a part of my life at all 21:06:58 Taneb: how could you 21:07:00 elliott: I think they would, it seems broad enough 21:07:01 Taneb: Programming, actually 21:07:07 I could get the IRP one 21:07:11 That's got to be close enough 21:07:11 ais523: yes, but the reliable sources? 21:07:15 2 outta 5 21:07:17 I'd just pre-poison esolangs.org :) 21:07:24 elliott: hahaha 21:07:25 Taneb: not close enough for the captcha :P 21:07:27 does Mastermind require reliable sources? 21:07:38 ais523: I assume they use some encyclopedia or something 21:07:42 elliott, I don't think "Befunge" would be for the befunge one 21:07:43 I know that recently, I've seen a gameshow that explicitly states its sources 21:07:44 meh, they probably just use Wikipedia 21:07:49 and asks questions starting "according to IMDB", etc 21:07:56 Taneb: "Befunge" is accepted for the wire-crossing one 21:08:01 IMDB is quite a common source for them to use 21:08:05 I knew about TriINTERCAL, and IRP, and Befunge, and had the correct decade for Underload (sadly not good enough), but didn't recall the Unlambda dude's name. 21:08:15 fizzie: I'd have guessed 1995, thinking about it 21:08:18 so I was only a year off 21:08:40 elliott told me the answer to the Unlambda question before I had a chance to think about it, but I didn't remember it 21:09:08 I reckon Mastermind would allow Esolangs as a topic 21:09:10 actually, you guessed it, I think 21:09:52 looking through oerjan's impl of ~ in Underload-minus-~, it feels a little unneccessarily complex 21:09:54 although I get the idea 21:10:32 the problem is that lacking ~ means that most of the standard stack manip tricks don't work 21:10:54 -!- Taneb has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Resistance is frowned upon, thus voltage is frowned upon times currant. | Electric buns, all the rage.. 21:11:47 (currant != current) 21:12:00 ais523: I remember that one 21:12:04 because I remember being surprised that I understood it 21:12:19 right, stepping through it the principle is obvious 21:12:23 it's just hard to parse mentally 21:12:49 I forget what it uses to be able to change the structure of the stack 21:12:51 ^, right? 21:13:10 yep, it basically constructs a program (a)(b)(a)(b) and puts !s in the right places 21:13:33 right 21:14:20 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:14:55 -!- oerjan has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Resistance is frowned upon, thus voltage is frowned upon times current. | Electric buns, all the rage.. 21:15:11 or was that intentional. 21:15:11 rip currant 21:15:29 oerjan: I spotted the change; I'm guessing it was unintentional and then the next section was added to make fun of it 21:15:36 "a good friand" 21:15:37 aha 21:15:39 hmm, now I want to have a go at implementing ~ myself 21:16:05 * Taneb has changed the topic to: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Resistance is frowned upon, thus voltage is frowned upon times currant. | Electric buns, all the rage. 21:16:05 (currant != current) 21:16:05 *MWAHAHAHA* 21:16:48 ais523: hmm, how does it construct (a)(b)? 21:16:51 you need to dip to the a to "a" it 21:16:59 elliott: that's the tricky part 21:17:02 if you have dip, swap is easy 21:17:21 hmm, maybe not 21:17:44 btw, Proggit are talking about concatenative languages at the moment, at least in one thread 21:17:55 in response to the submission of a blog post by evincar 21:17:59 is that evincar's unbearable blog post 21:18:00 right 21:18:10 heh heh heh 21:18:14 evincar... that name sounds oddly familiar 21:18:20 he comes here sometimes 21:18:23 elliott doesn't like him 21:18:33 elliott: right; the information is mostly good, but the opinions are probably counterproductive 21:18:35 Link to blog post? 21:18:38 http://evincarofautumn.blogspot.com/2012/02/why-concatenative-programming-matters.html 21:18:44 ais523: the information is good, except when it's wrong 21:18:51 for instance, he got the definition of "concatenative" wrong 21:19:39 hmm, in what way? I'm tired, may not have been paying attention 21:19:50 ah, 11:00:16 rien: I want to fix a few bugs and get a final 0.95 release out but other than that I'm mostly done 21:20:07 ais523: well... it's not so much wrong as not a definition at all 21:20:29 ais523: importantly, it doesn't actually address the "concat" part of "concatenative" 21:21:07 I suppose my definition would be "a concatenative language is one in which concatenating the source code that represents two functions f and g creates a valid source code for the function f compose g" 21:21:14 So... it's a blog post about Native E code? 21:21:23 Taneb: it uses Factor as its example language 21:21:32 but most of what it says would work just as well for Joy or Underload, apart from the code examples 21:22:10 I think ais523 just makes up answers to questions he doesn't know the answer to. 21:22:22 elliott: ? 21:22:26 Taneb: it uses Factor as its example language 21:22:28 isn't true 21:22:34 what, /seriously/? 21:22:43 Factor doesn't use "define foo [...]" last I checked 21:22:43 what language are the examples written in, then? 21:22:48 it's ": foo ... ;" 21:22:57 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 21:23:00 ais523: probably either none, or evincar's awful concatenative language 21:23:04 that we keep yelling at him about repeatedly 21:23:06 oh, hmm, he doesn't actually say the examples are in Factor anywhere 21:23:11 he strongly implies it multiple times, though 21:23:15 where? 21:23:49 elliott: basically by it being the only concatenative language he mentions 21:23:52 before Kitten right at the end 21:24:09 that guy stole the name kitten?! 21:24:15 god, I hate him even more now 21:24:16 the kitten factor 21:24:19 elliott: yes 21:24:23 -!- Taneb has joined. 21:24:28 elliott: because it's a cut-down version of Cat, apparently 21:24:49 oh, he also mentions Prog, which is "principally concatenative" 21:25:06 On another note, elliott hasn't seen the new improved Pietbot! 21:25:11 and is apparently based around pattern matching and GADTs 21:25:17 thus, I conclude that it sucks compared to Anarchy 21:25:29 you're confusing kitten and prog 21:25:32 evincar has two languages 21:25:34 kitten and prog 21:25:37 monqy: no I'm not 21:25:40 :o 21:25:41 "he also mentions Prog" 21:25:41 oh 21:25:42 I misread 21:25:44 woopse 21:26:05 is it a cut-down version of cat though? 21:26:31 Pietbot is afk, 'twould seem 21:26:56 ais523: why might MediaWiki fail to redirect to the short-URL version of a page? 21:26:59 now I'm disappointed that the Cat interpreter almost certainly isn't called cat 21:27:10 elliott: because it doesn't know for certain that the short-URL version is set up correctly 21:27:19 you'd have to tell it in the config that the redirect will work 21:27:23 otherwise it assumes it won't 21:27:29 ais523: I told it with $wgArticlePath 21:27:31 and it worked before 21:27:33 hmm 21:27:38 is there something else I have to set? 21:27:45 I don't know of another reason, but that doesn't mean another reason doesn't exist 21:27:56 maybe it's caching too much or something 21:30:33 btw, what's the evaluation strategy called where every function call in the code is pure and you know the argument it'll get already, you start running it in a different thread to see what value it produces, and kill the thread once you go out of scope (i.e. the function would get another argument next time)? 21:30:39 speculative or opportunistic 21:31:06 oerjan: is there a name for the convention itself? if you do it for /everything/? 21:31:15 it's a call-by-need variant, I think 21:31:18 i dunno 21:31:44 it's clearly insane on a CPU, but we've decided that it's actually pretty efficient on an FPGA 21:31:58 because all that thread creation costs nothing at all apart from one bit of memory 21:33:04 hmm, perhaps it's APC caching somehow 21:34:31 # Folks get annoyed when VfD discussions end up the number 1 google hit for 21:34:31 # their name. See bugzilla bug #4776 21:34:36 -- http://en.wikipedia.org/robots.txt 21:35:44 elliott: those pages now have meta noindex on them too, but putting them in robots.txt helps reduce server load 21:35:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:36:00 due to making the bots not even bother requesting, rather than merely ignoring then 21:36:02 *them 21:37:13 wow, caching the sitenotice is really confusing 21:37:22 because a lot of links get de-linked due to it being cached when rendering one of the linked pages 21:37:38 I suppose the solution is to just use external links instead 21:40:19 elliott: yep 21:41:14 (how do you style external links to look like normal ones in the sitenotice?) 21:41:48 there's some style to suppress the external link arrow 21:41:58 I can't remember if it's mediawiki-wide or wikipedia-specific, though 21:43:40 ais523: btw: http://95.149.228.149:8181/w/api.php 21:44:20 ooh 21:45:21 * elliott attempts to determine sincerity level :) 21:47:06 maybe you could make it so that underload is the only captcha question? <-- hey that was the only one i think i didn't get 21:47:10 elliott: excitement, combined with a lack of any actual /use/ for it 21:47:25 oerjan: wasn't that olsner's point 21:47:30 ais523: hehe 21:47:39 it was an "ooh, shiny things" reactoin 21:47:41 *reaction 21:47:45 elliott: no, his point was it was easy to remember 21:47:50 oerjan: ah 21:48:03 oerjan: well you only have to fill it out the captcha once unless you regularly edit anonymously 21:48:14 i'm not entirely sure i'm right about the wire-crossing one 21:48:26 oerjan: that's why they all have links 21:48:34 i'm just logreading 21:48:36 oerjan: I specifically picked captchas answerable from the first paragraph in the linked esowiki pages 21:48:41 they just don't go to the esowiki pages yet 21:48:55 in this case, [[Wire-crossing problem]]: "The wire-crossing problem, in its general form, states that some programs in some languages cannot be represented as planar graphs (that is, graphs with edges that do not cross when rendered in two dimensions.) It was (as far as we are aware) first considered for Befunge, with respect to the necessity of the # operator." 21:49:05 yay i was right 21:50:20 oerjan: btw do you have any complaints/requests wrt the new wiki 21:57:43 -!- augur has joined. 22:01:23 oerjan: THANKS HELPFUL 22:01:29 ais523: btw wikispam 22:01:34 oh wait you just got rid of it all 22:01:35 well 22:01:36 not all 22:01:48 I'm in the process of deleting it 22:01:51 when you distracted me 22:01:59 whoops 22:02:01 sorry 22:02:03 elliott: it seemed sort of ...empty... 22:02:14 oerjan: har har 22:02:26 oerjan: but seriously 22:02:53 well we need some new limes, those are _way_ beyond best before date 22:03:39 how can i have complaints when it's not really up? 22:03:58 ...software-related complaints, presumably... 22:04:04 wtf, suddenly /w/ starts redirecting properly 22:04:19 Well, goodnight 22:04:20 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:04:23 well it loads. 22:04:38 -!- pir^2 has joined. 22:05:17 oerjan: ok, I give up 22:05:51 you seem to think i have opinions and stuff 22:06:16 i mainly hope you will get all the data transfered properly 22:06:22 * elliott distinctly recalls oerjan complaining about the wiki software tons 22:06:28 oerjan: were you not here when I set up an instance with the imported data? 22:06:39 probably not. 22:06:48 ais523: btw, can [[Special:Export]] do images? 22:06:57 elliott: I don't think so 22:07:01 just image description pages 22:07:10 well i seem to have adapted to the flaws i guess 22:07:26 i recall being bitten by edits timing out, at one time 22:08:11 ais523: I have this vague feeling that Special:Exporting all the ordinary pages, reuploading files manually, and then copying over the user table will be easier than a "normal" migration 22:08:28 elliott: I was wondering about that too 22:08:34 elliott: by "all the data" i mean _all_ the data, naturally. 22:08:41 oerjan: as opposed to? 22:09:01 not user accounts or pictures 22:09:13 is what i can think about 22:09:30 well user accounts will just require Graue 22:09:34 it should be easy to import + upgrade that table 22:09:44 as for pictures 22:09:45 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllpages&from=&namespace=6 22:09:52 there are not really all that many 22:09:57 so it's not a problem if we have to manually migrate them 22:10:06 ok 22:10:25 there are also some other media files aren't there 22:10:41 huh? 22:10:42 like what? 22:10:47 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:11:00 doesn't fugue have sound/midi, or something 22:11:39 those go in the image namespace 22:11:42 ok 22:11:52 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages#Fugue 22:11:55 it's a link to the file archive 22:12:03 which I plan to grab 22:12:08 (it's svn) 22:12:09 good 22:12:23 you already mentioned the forum 22:13:22 yes, Deewiant has that 22:15:11 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:16:34 anyway, I'll probably contact Graue tonight, tomorrow, or the day after 22:16:51 depending on how quickly I can do final tweaks and figure out what my server situation is 22:16:59 (I'd like a configured MW to be able to link him to) 22:17:05 (that isn't running on this laptop) 22:17:57 ais523: by the way, if Graue decides he's too busy to give me a database dump and set up a redirect, I'm going to need help finding out where he lives 22:18:26 * elliott wouldn't think that plausible if Graue didn't decline to do the simplest of things to solve the current spam problem on the same grounds... 22:19:17 heh 22:27:05 ugh, no one told me when I became interested in programming that my work would involve such exciting things as writing contracts. 22:29:13 ais523: any further suggestions for the wiki, btw? (/me is pretty much procrastinating the final few things...) 22:29:34 elliott: not offhand 22:30:04 i think ais has really hit on something... sacrificing cpu time to decode the captcha image to slow down the spambot 22:30:16 now just combine that with foldathome or something 22:30:44 or wait, that's human isn't it. 22:30:57 or was that another one 22:32:31 Folding@home was automatical. 22:32:52 There was some other where you twiggled molecules all game-like, though. 22:33:17 right 22:33:34 I suppose s/was/is/ though I haven't heard anything about it lately. 22:35:25 ais523: how easy would it be for you to prepare a [[Special:Export]] of every mainspace/talkspace/userspace/usertalkspace/projectspace/projecttalkspace article on Esolang with full histories? 22:35:49 elliott: does Special:Export work for you? 22:36:05 it should just be a case of getting a page list from somewhere (probably special:allpages), then plugging it into special:export 22:36:14 and hoping that it doesn't refuse to handle such a large query 22:37:27 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:37:28 ais523: it does, I was hoping I could be lazy :P 22:37:35 I'll give it a go 22:38:39 hi 22:39:39 i don't think there's ever been this much difference in my state of mind in a single day. 22:40:07 in fact i think i reached new maxima on both sides for this year. 22:40:26 ais523: ugh, copying from the table doesn't produce one-per-line in my browser 22:40:57 elliott: CSS the table into a list? 22:41:13 would that /work/? 22:42:01 ais523: btw, http://esolangs.org/wiki/1st_year_sobriety_and_no_dating is a broken redirect 22:42:28 shall I delete it, or do you want to put an esolang there? 22:42:35 and I know it works, because I did that on AfD for Wikipedia 22:43:06 oh well, may as well delete the redirect and leave the talk page there 22:43:28 you can delete it 22:43:45 already have 22:44:02 oklopol: Did you: make some more prooves to replace the one that got away? 22:44:17 no 22:44:42 i hardly did any math after work 22:44:55 http://static.quickmeme.com/media/social/qm.gif does this image deeply offend anyone else? 22:45:09 oh... 22:45:16 well, that's offensive too 22:45:18 but not the right image. 22:45:33 A 1x1 pixel image? How rude! 22:45:48 http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/178i/ 22:46:08 i'm deeply offended 22:46:16 yes, me too. 22:49:27 I'm offended by the lack of spaces between #include and the <. 22:49:59 oh I didn't even look at the background 22:50:01 what does that statement have to with linux? 22:50:21 lol and a windows blue screen 22:50:27 I was just offended at the implication of real numbers having anything to do with computers. 22:51:21 */all/ the reals, rather. 22:51:57 I also suspect the creator of this particular caption doesn't understand floating point numbers 22:51:58 I guess jesus is a float, since he supposedly walked on water? 22:52:04 .. 22:52:15 blah() { curl "$1" | perl -ne "print \"$2\":"'$1\n" while /]+>([^<]+)/g' >>allpages; } 22:52:20 ais523: HOW DO YOU ESCAPE AARGH 22:52:40 elliott: escape bash and you escape your escape problems 22:52:57 One does not simply escape aargh. 22:53:23 ais523: use single quotes in the perl code. or do you need it to interpolate? 22:53:24 er 22:53:27 elliott* 22:53:48 wait, what. 22:54:26 just remove the \"s and 22:54:42 ...use ' I think? 22:54:43 yeah. 22:55:12 kallisti: it's substituting in bash's $2 and $1 22:55:21 they aren't meant to be passed literally to Perl 22:55:23 The most standard floating-point type of Pascal is called "real", that's offensive. 22:55:25 oh you want it to /not/ do that. 22:55:27 [^>]+>([^<]+) looks like brainfuck 22:55:34 except, i assume, the second $1 is from perl 22:55:42 Why do you think it's substituting $2 and $1? 22:55:48 iirc '' ignores variables 22:55:51 just use ' instead of " and then bash won't interpolate. if you need to use single quotes inside perl use q/.../ 22:56:14 oerjan: oh, right, it is 22:56:19 ais523: I've rtied perl -ne 'print "'"$2"'... 22:56:21 *tried 22:56:26 Jafet: the $2 refers to bash's $2, the second $1 to perl's $1 22:56:27 but that puts literal quotes around $2 (?!) 22:57:28 You can use $$ to escape $ 22:58:06 Deewiant: I'd have to escape the regexp too, I think. 22:58:12 * kallisti tends to use q and qq in perl to avoid bash escape hell. 22:58:16 Who would ever want to escape from their $? 22:58:33 I love this channel.. you can even make a bash script into a an esoteric challenge 22:58:39 elliott: shouldn't you be escaping the $2 inside the Perl script, in case it contains a "? 22:59:09 ais523: it won't 22:59:12 it's just a namespace name 22:59:13 He should be passing $2 as a parameter, and recovering it inside perl with $2 22:59:15 perl quote-like operators would solve that problem as well. 22:59:16 this is for scraping allpages 22:59:32 Jafet: oh, good idea, but don't you mean $ARGV[whatever]? 22:59:35 elliott: ah, OK 22:59:41 if you use brackets. q(...) can basically contain anything. 22:59:42 if it contained esolang names, it'd get ugly 23:00:03 elliott: yes that's what he means. :P 23:00:19 elliott: I'm just the village idiot, I don't know what is perl 23:00:44 (also, in case you forgot, the first element of ARGV is not the program name in perl) 23:01:19 easy thing to forget and mess up on. 23:01:44 doesn't work 23:01:45 because I use <> 23:01:50 (or equivalently, -n) 23:02:00 oh yes. 23:02:13 brb, hope you guys fix it by the time I come back OR ELSE 23:02:48 what's the problem with interpolating the whole string, using $$ to escape one of them, and using a quote-like operator if you need a nested string? 23:02:50 or else you're going to write it in visual basic? 23:03:24 elliott: what do you get if you replace perl -ne by echo ? 23:04:28 wait what is the : 23:04:55 it appears to be in the perl. 23:05:34 kallisti: oh right! 23:06:17 elliott: remove the second \" 23:07:15 "print qq{$2:$$1\n} while /blahblahblah/g" 23:07:27 I think? 23:08:28 what's assuming you want whatever is inside $2 to be interpolated as perl and be able to do things like, say, execute arbitrary Perl code 23:08:32 s/what/that/ 23:08:42 if you don't want that then I recommend using q instead. :P 23:09:51 For parsing HTML, you should use Visual Basic .NET. 23:10:06 I am agree. use all .NET always. 23:12:05 elliott: but yeah try that but with q{...} instead of qq{...} (or just use ' even) 23:14:24 hey i already gave a fix :( 23:14:59 oh yes, and it might fix other things as well. 23:15:23 for example, with mine, bash might accidentally interpret the regex as something (I am bad at bash stuff so I don't know) 23:16:12 bash is named for what it makes you do to your head 23:16:35 did you fix it yet 23:16:41 elliott: YES 23:16:41 I'm kind of amazed that we still actually use it... 23:16:46 seems it could be replaced easily. 23:16:54 elliott: remove the second \" 23:17:06 it could definitely use perl's quoting constructs. As this is my primary frustration with bash. 23:17:22 elliott: if that doesn't work I have another suggest (it's even somewhat readable!) 23:18:56 chsh /sbin/perl 23:19:21 Modify perl to interpret all barewords as command lines 23:19:24 oerjan: in which one... 23:19:36 Jafet: 23:19:40 blah() { curl "$1" | perl -ne "print \"$2\":"'$1\n" while /]+>([^<]+)/g' >>allpages; } 23:19:41 i bet there's a source filter for that. 23:20:00 actually you could do it with an AUTOLOAD as well, I think. 23:20:58 all linux distros should switch to perl6 at some point in the future. 23:21:11 you could even define a set of operators that make it bash-like. 23:21:21 oerjan: [elliott@dinky esowiki]$ blah() { curl "$1" | perl -ne "print \"$2":"'$1\n" while /]+>([^<]+)/g' >>allpages; } 23:21:21 bash: syntax error near unexpected token `<' 23:21:28 ;_; 23:21:40 elliott: the \ _and_ the " 23:21:50 Why would you make it bash-like 23:21:53 elliott: "print a{$2:$$1\n} while /blahblahblah/g" 23:21:54 do this do this 23:22:15 Jafet: bash-like as-in supporting all the redirect/piping/file descriptor/etc stuff 23:22:20 you know, the useful things 23:22:24 Of course, I'd only ever put pugs in /sbin. 23:22:27 oerjan: works thx 23:22:30 yay 23:22:36 bash redirection is amazingly confusing and limited 23:23:00 okay fine just use perl6 then 23:23:20 $ wc -l allpages 23:23:21 2248 allpages 23:23:21 here we go 23:23:52 elliott: note that mine is totally more clear. :> 23:24:27 (assuming bash doesn't misinterpret the regex) 23:25:19 also it suffers from no code injection exploits, which I'm sure is totally important. 23:25:30 [elliott@dinky esowiki]$ curl -F 'pages=allpages.xml 23:25:35 this will be like a hundred megs 23:26:17 4.4 megs already 23:26:32 I bet PHP will time out 23:26:33 esolangs.org down in 9, 8, ... 23:26:45 so if this works, the idea is to import the pages with this, import the user table separately, and upload files manually 23:26:48 rather than importing the whole database 23:27:02 it's cleaner and lets us avoid old MW cruft 23:27:38 what if any of the pages _use_ old MW cruft 23:27:45 elliott: how well does it handle the ";fork while fork;# namespace 23:27:47 it's currently onto [[brainfuck]] 23:27:49 oerjan: wtf does that mean 23:28:08 i dunno, i'm just making up disaster scenarios 23:28:32 oerjan: old MW cruft = the fact that the database schema on esolangs.org is 5 years old 23:28:39 ok 23:28:51 the XML export format is stable, so we can isolate the cruft that needs to be migrated to the users table 23:29:06 rather than mangling the SQL dump, importing it, and having MW's scripts upgrade it piecemeal 23:29:21 oerjan: I'll still get a full DB dump from Graue if I can. 23:29:25 It's onto [[brainfuck constants]] now :P 23:29:52 -!- augur has joined. 23:29:52 that's a large one 23:30:21 ooh, tswett is responsible for the site subtitle I don't like 23:30:24 probably the largest. well, there's that nthern archive or what it was 23:30:31 that means I can change it without fear of Graue 23:30:44 what subtitle 23:30:54 elliott: also the well-known @{[sub{fork while fork}->()]} namespace 23:31:08 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Sitesubtitle 23:31:25 I don't like that subtitle either 23:31:35 and I just learned about it today, by clicking that link 23:31:42 and then reading 23:32:12 oerjan: btw what would be lost in the process of this would be: deleted pages, and logs like blocks/rights changes; I have a few-days-old dump of esowiki, so the only deleted pages truly lost would be spam, and if I get a full DB dump from Graue nothing will be lost 23:33:22 oerjan: also, it'd be trivial to spider all of http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=&user=&page=&limit=500&offset=0 23:35:00 i'm reminded of that legoman inscription 23:35:21 wat 23:35:59 No real than you are 23:36:33 "A more explicit example, especially if you also want to save the darn thing, would be" --MediaWiki manual 23:38:03 71 megs... 23:38:05 where the heck is the subtitle linked _from_, anyway? 23:38:38 oerjan: it's in the printed view and some skins 23:38:42 and in monobook if you copy the whole text 23:38:43 oh 23:42:30 93 megs 23:46:13 112 megs 23:46:54 it's on to talk:bitbitjump 23:55:22 done 23:55:23 155 megs 23:55:32 ais523: how easy is it to revert a Special:Import? 23:55:51 elliott: you have to delete the page 23:56:18 ais523: so a Special:Import of >2000 pages... 23:56:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:58:01 a pain 23:58:13 ais523: restoring from an SQL backup would undo it all, right? 23:58:17 since it doesn't upload files or anything 23:58:31 right