< 1327882438 272512 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1327883290 385561 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327883314 305122 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it OK in Haskell to have a class C and then a function of type C () => Int -> String and have it not callable unless you define that instance in the main program which imports that library? (Assuming relevant extensions are enabled) < 1327883356 753127 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :What’s that useful for? < 1327883392 598746 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: Why aren't you using ASCII? < 1327883407 206993 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m using a superset of ASCII. < 1327883480 742515 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no point in doing so in this circumstances. < 1327883508 300143 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I am not entirely sure what the things I have is useful for; but I do have some ideas of such uses. < 1327883586 194161 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly, if you are defining a partial program. Such as, instead of .hs-boot stuff. < 1327883649 97049 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The stuff that needs to be defined in an external program, can simply be class methods (and associated types, too). < 1327883678 681681 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since if they are () -> x then you can have x it is isomorphic. < 1327883918 28501 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you understand this now? < 1327884129 943633 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i don't think C () => Int -> String is a possible useful type, since () is not mentioned to the right of => < 1327884145 339074 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so there will be no way for the class to be looked up < 1327884190 634746 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, maybe the class has a method: f :: t -> Int -> String; Now you can call f () which requires that constraint < 1327884221 225926 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that would work. although perhaps making it C Int is better. < 1327884225 306412 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(-XFlexibleContexts is required) < 1327884273 661636 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: However, it might be a class with many methods (and maybe even associated types); so () -> x is isomorphic to x you can just include any value you want there, similar to a .hs-boot file but different < 1327884289 453225 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: If it compiles and is useful, it’s surely ok. :-) < 1327884401 963060 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think this is slightly discouraged in the same way as global variables, since it means you cannot use two different instances in the same program (or at least module) < 1327884500 708452 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it resembles a bit what the reflection package is for < 1327884509 394298 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes; still, in such cases the instance should only be defined in the main program (which compiles into an executable), so no libraries would define such an instance < 1327884511 544284 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if () were replaced by a generic type < 1327884539 513309 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as with a similar use of the .hs-boot feature < 1327884553 478261 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although that isn't the only use of .hs-boot either. < 1327884596 989479 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since .hs-boot still requires such a module to be imported and to exist; the other way I used is exporting instead, and usable in any main program < 1327884630 906644 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes it is like global variables and can be done in other ways < 1327884682 726749 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course using the global value passed to every function, still cannot do associated types < 1327885164 283687 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1327885689 94780 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (*>) < 1327885689 684583 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Applicative f) => f a -> f b -> f b < 1327885721 533722 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange that RWH uses this instead of >>, I guess to teach Applicatives? < 1327885726 156839 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the Parsec examples. < 1327885766 363012 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do commonly use both <* and *> with Parsec; >>= and join are hardly ever useful with Parsec < 1327885893 618763 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> ($ [1..10]) <$> (,) <$> [1..10] < 1327885894 315732 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [(1,[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10]),(2,[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10]),(3,[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,... < 1327885905 533662 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> ($ [1..10]) <$> ((,) <$> [1..10]) < 1327885906 236220 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [(1,[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10]),(2,[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10]),(3,[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,... < 1327885945 425899 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (<$> [1..10]) <$> ((,) <$> [1..10]) < 1327885946 129852 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [[(1,1),(1,2),(1,3),(1,4),(1,5),(1,6),(1,7),(1,8),(1,9),(1,10)],[(2,1),(2,2... < 1327885967 715202 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (=<< [1..10]) <$> ((,) <$> [1..10]) < 1327885968 237609 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type `[b]' against inferred type `(a, b)' < 1327886457 322282 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (*>) < 1327886458 281369 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Applicative f) => f a -> f b -> f b < 1327886469 449232 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is *> just <* flipped? < 1327886479 364529 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, no < 1327886485 426582 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src (*>) < 1327886485 846651 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*>) = liftA2 (const id) < 1327886517 873457 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's like >> for applicatives? < 1327886535 894447 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes it is equivalent < 1327886885 134194 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1327887137 320022 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the syntax proposals for typeclass aliases kind of boggle me < 1327887139 133636 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just.... < 1327887148 942267 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :class (A a, B a, C a) => D a < 1327887259 867215 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the porposals I've seen do something like < 1327887269 968894 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :class alias (A a, B a, C a) => D a where { ... } < 1327887274 854481 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really understand the where clause. < 1327887287 314126 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :My own proposal is to add a kind & and then do: type D a = (A a, B a, C a) where D is now of kind (* -> &) < 1327887300 523697 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And is the one seeming most logical to me. < 1327887332 393751 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so D is a typeclass even though it's declared as a type? < 1327887335 360276 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's somewhat strange. < 1327887354 65808 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Well, no it isn't; you cannot declare instances of it. But you can use it in constraints and so on. < 1327887387 236004 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Of course it doesn't work in current Haskell, but if you added the & kind I proposed, then it would work) < 1327887405 722304 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see nothing wrong with treating a typeclass declaration with no where to be an alias, and thus writing an instance for that alias produces an instance for each of the aliased classes. < 1327887407 687846 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Adding the & kind also allows many other things to be done, including having class parameters with that kind) < 1327887424 945104 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that could potentially be useful. < 1327887431 153224 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :having typeclasses are parameters. < 1327887433 942440 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/are/as/ < 1327887453 442107 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example < 1327887455 436423 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I have often wanted it < 1327887494 527874 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could break MonadPlus into three typeclasses < 1327887503 866993 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :one with mplus, one with mzero, and one that's an alias for both. < 1327887514 32622 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the alias could be named MonadPlus, thus not breaking any code. < 1327887572 224031 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could do similar things with Num. < 1327887588 125862 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have often wanted typeclasses as parameters to classes, though. You are saying something different, but still could work. < 1327887607 708783 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I'm just saying that typeclass aliases would ease a lot of typeclass reforms. < 1327887620 735972 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :while minimizing code breakage. < 1327887626 120992 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, if you could do what you say, then you should also be able to do something like instance (A a, B a, C a) where { ... } since the type synonym is just the same thing as that < 1327887634 613267 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1327887636 350562 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :... well < 1327887638 742644 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1327887644 221318 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's fine, the syntax would need some work. < 1327887658 342126 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And once you define the type synonym, then instance D a where { ... } will work too < 1327887671 122421 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1327887680 899676 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: I don't think the syntax needs any work; the syntax is the same as current Haskell syntax, the only difference is a new kind < 1327887700 961211 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I was referring to the use of a tuple in the instance there. I suppose that's fine. < 1327887705 970624 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the best syntax I can think of. < 1327887727 926417 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not really a necessary change, but it would add a degree of consistency < 1327887751 77105 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and could perhaps be convenient in some situations where you want to define many small but related typeclasses. < 1327887762 124888 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example Enum and Bounded are often related to each. < 1327887774 771785 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't a tuple type, however. I suppose it mean the tuple syntax will have two kinds < 1327887793 618487 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such a syntax is already used in constraints, anyways. < 1327887801 335318 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I don't think there's any diambiguity < 1327887805 560439 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there is no tuple typeclass. < 1327887851 83638 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only problem I see is that typeclasses don't really seem to fit into the kind model. < 1327887856 149697 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't use a typeclass as a type. < 1327887884 504466 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it would allow many things to be done that do not currently work < 1327887900 986350 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, however < 1327887909 908726 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you parameterize a typeclass < 1327887919 999401 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what information do you gain? it would be nearly impossible to define a default method, for example. < 1327887933 293362 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-147-156.tc.ph.cox.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1327887936 547605 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like a type of kind (* -> *) cannot be used where a type of kind * is expected, so it is the same kind of thing other ones < 1327887951 545390 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I suppose it makes sense. < 1327887986 125568 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could also do it as a "class family" :P < 1327887998 897774 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another kind I have proposed is the + kind; types of that kind are natural numbers and can be used anywhere that a * kind type is expected, but not the other way around. If a type of kind * is expected and a type of kind + is used, it is the type with that many values. < 1327888013 256514 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so essentially + is a subkind < 1327888020 895871 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's already a kind hierarchy so it requires no special casing. < 1327888033 538982 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: O, yes. OK. < 1327888052 779332 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/IntermediateTypes#KindsareTypes < 1327888056 171507 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this diagram is helpful. < 1327888103 899646 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so + would just go under ?? probably. < 1327888113 351813 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1327888123 463795 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :where do you think it should go? < 1327888141 345530 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Example of & kind in class parameter: class ConstrainedMonad (c :: * -> &) (m :: * -> *) and same thing with Functor. Now ConstrainedMonad itself is of kind ((* -> &) -> (* -> *) -> &) < 1327888178 814394 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think for clarity it would be nice to be able to put the kind annotation within the where. < 1327888206 799897 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: I think under * is probably best; it can become unboxed by the optimizer if necessary < 1327888212 468230 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe I am wrong < 1327888232 179653 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ?? implies that it can be used as a function argument type. < 1327888245 245993 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(->) :: ?? -> ? -> * < 1327888256 989982 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, put + under * but put & entirely separately from anything in that diagram < 1327888269 48383 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1327888316 170213 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: I know that, but I was thinking of using natural numbers of kind + as parameters of types that require types of kind * < 1327888319 621083 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does + represent at a value level? < 1327888326 352592 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :a natural number? < 1327888368 804548 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :A type of kind + when used as a type of kind * means that is the number of possible values of that type (not counting bottoms). < 1327888411 141862 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, Maybe (Maybe (Maybe Zero))) is isomorphic to the type 3 except that 3 can be used as + or * so it can be used where types are created using natural numbers (using induction or whatever method) < 1327888446 480500 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Where, in this example, Zero is an uninhabited type) < 1327888452 794303 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I see. < 1327888523 634169 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could extend the kind hierarchy to have a new universal kind above ?, and include both ? and & under that. < 1327888539 819929 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: Yes. < 1327888540 531461 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the new root kind would then be the kinds allowed in type parameters. < 1327888554 182408 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1327888648 898559 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a somewhat complicated tree. :P < 1327888746 502990 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327889515 5551 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327896840 600996 :primo!~maik@ppp-124-120-216-11.revip2.asianet.co.th JOIN :#esoteric < 1327897280 196658 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1327897334 314446 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :FizzBuss TeX now in 142 bytes: \newcount\-\let~\advance\day0\loop~\-1~\day1~\mit\ifnum\-=3\-0Fizz\fi\ifnum\fam=5Buzz\rm\fi\ifvmode\the\day\fi\endgraf\ifnum\day<`d\repeat\bye < 1327897372 439445 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think my original program was 145 bytes. < 1327897484 348281 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1327897551 785039 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: Do you know how to do things in TeX? < 1327897656 190643 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven’t studied it beyond creating documents and doing trivial macro-style things. < 1327897707 473072 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What things have you done? < 1327897769 823951 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(My FizzBuzz program is a complete program; run TeX and paste this code and it will work. Ensure to use the executable called "tex"; it is not guaranteed to work with anything else, although you can try) < 1327897775 561642 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the most advanced thing i’ve done, and it’s still trivial. https://github.com/ion1/amuri/blob/master/lilypond.inc < 1327897853 478990 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I notice it uses extensions such as LaTeX and \write18. < 1327897858 2032 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1327897876 240708 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :My own programs and documents are all Plain TeX without extensions. < 1327897880 742877 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1327897966 601375 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are other extensions such as EncTeX, LuaTeX, pdfTeX, ConTeXt, etc. Sometimes they are used; LaTeX is probably the most common one, although I prefer Plain TeX. < 1327898011 379858 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, once I posted a document here, and they couldn't get it to compile on pdfTeX, it only worked with Plain TeX. I don't know why that is, but I never intended it to work with anything other than Plain TeX anyways. < 1327898025 267505 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If you want PDF output, you can still convert it using an external program afterward) < 1327898285 952251 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye < 1327898456 603210 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-234-64.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Strictly speaking, pdfTeX isn't an extension to TeX. < 1327898458 669831 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-234-64.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a fork. < 1327898488 642862 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-234-64.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adding direct PDF output and a lot of microtypography stuff. < 1327899505 9088 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :would it be sane to design web pages with TeX or LaTeX? < 1327899619 566663 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There’s a bunch of web content generated from LaTeX source. < 1327899623 628696 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: I don't think so; web pages are HTML. < 1327899640 494400 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you should make TeX DVI file for printout instead of using HTML for that purpose, anyways. < 1327899701 220723 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: There is differences though; I have been told that a document I have made with TeX will not work with pdfTeX. Using the "tex" executable will work. < 1327899746 21074 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's no TeX -> HTML ? < 1327899816 675903 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There might be but it isn't always going to work. Only TeX can properly compile TeX documents; nothing else will. < 1327899902 661748 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-234-64.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1327899911 825413 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-199-166.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327900057 31020 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still, you could make a format file for TeX which has commands for creating HTML stuff, and either output HTML directly using \openout and \write, or use DVI specials and convert the DVI using external programs. < 1327900072 489932 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it isn't the best way to do so in my opinion; simply createa printout DVI file instead. < 1327900154 972929 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I notice many of the new spam articles on esolang wiki are marked as minor edits; maybe they try to hide from some people that will revert it < 1327901529 383575 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: do you have a religion? < 1327901710 591223 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1327902837 813400 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327903469 305630 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Kind of; not really. < 1327903509 379796 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that kind of answer calls for clarification. what exactly do you believe in that arena? < 1327903516 655297 :Slereah!x@ANantes-259-1-162-123.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1327903583 76706 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is probably difficult to explain. If you can ask me specific questions, I can try to answer them. < 1327903610 83198 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looking at my Jyte stuff might have helped a little bit except that it is now broken. < 1327903683 800855 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also try to search the IRC logs for lines I have typed about religion. < 1327904369 475243 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-199-166.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1327904458 810087 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-216-110.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327905413 997878 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :" ais523: i want a name for the class of music that may or may not have lyrics, but whose focus is directed away from the lyrics. namely, because the voices are being used more as instruments than "creators of meaning"" i put all music in this category. most popular music has rather little content for me. < 1327905840 649913 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :irregularwebcomic has fun science stuff. < 1327905876 155091 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :word word word word word ... < 1327905884 626617 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now *that's* music < 1327905930 603537 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you know that your name means (river in lojnish < 1327905972 210453 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unable to parse "(river in lojnish" probable missing delimeter < 1327906000 341858 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ke is ( in lojban < 1327906008 101688 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :joki is river in finnish < 1327906044 583576 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool. But I'm still worried about going overtime on that deli meter. < 1327906129 281066 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1327906163 483419 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it's not a general paren, it's for changing the way a compound word is grouped < 1327906186 255495 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot knows no Zaphod quotes! Shocked, I am. < 1327906209 28124 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :to ... toi is parens < 1327906240 541544 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :last week i realized lojban is an awesome language and i should retry learning it < 1327906249 969970 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is unicode actually used enough to be good for anything? < 1327906257 684460 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: If you have better questions (whether about religious stuff or otherwise), feel free to ask; or don't if you don't like to do so < 1327906339 118936 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i don't know what to ask. are you spiritual? do you believe in any supernatural entities? do you practice any particular rituals? these seem the obvious questions to get a starting point... < 1327906421 980714 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have an easier one, do you slaughter cows? < 1327906439 627719 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lojban is a perfect example of Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem moved into a non-abstract space. There is no possibility of creating an unambiguous human language. < 1327906481 724128 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, lojban never tried to be unambiguous < 1327906505 45456 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has like a million words for saying "this part i'll leave ambiguous" < 1327906514 48325 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :kejoki: its prime feature is it lets you mark where you have left out some information. it makes ambi--yeah that < 1327906518 364556 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tries to have unambiguous parsing, and it does. < 1327906524 775675 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :syntactically unambiguous. < 1327906536 269693 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you claim it doesn't succeed in that? < 1327906551 774994 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that, or KG was worng. < 1327906557 454935 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is kg < 1327906569 113095 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kurt Gödel? < 1327906573 94756 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1327906583 633932 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I dunno either < 1327906587 719012 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, him. < 1327906592 964565 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gödel had nothing to say about human language afair < 1327906598 511391 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay bye troll i'm going to work. < 1327906606 266038 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a bit reminded of itidus < 1327906607 373010 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope. Just formal systems < 1327906623 579347 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :bai oklopol < 1327906630 5033 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my apologies. I get a little whacky when it's late. < 1327906670 863819 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can blame Sapir-Whorf. < 1327906701 903671 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1327906775 798571 :primo_!~maik@ppp-124-120-48-27.revip2.asianet.co.th JOIN :#esoteric < 1327906794 523000 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, my point was that if you produce an unambiguous syntax you've got a formal system. < 1327906877 316083 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION <- is (hopefully) only *slightly* obnoxious, only part of the time. < 1327906886 168415 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, a formal system is a formal system. < 1327906895 100731 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that may be true, for an interesting enough language < 1327906918 432757 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, most languages are used to describe < 1327906932 17216 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are use-based, not rule-based < 1327906942 351437 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :human languages i mean < 1327906958 111874 :primo!~maik@ppp-124-120-216-11.revip2.asianet.co.th QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1327906976 971274 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :got that. But how can you create an unabiguous grammar that is not rule based? < 1327906995 69843 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry. syntax. It's late. < 1327907020 439335 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Correct. Those are good questions. I rarely practice religious rituals. I sometimes pray in my mind, or even physically; but this is more a kind of meditation. About supernatural entities, my beliefs might be difficult to describe as yes or no belief in supernatural entities I suppose; but I can say some of my opinions seem to say isomorphism of some parts of different kinds, and I can say I consider myself generally agnostic < 1327907052 816911 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what do you mean by kinds? < 1327907081 390192 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :kejoki: "subject-verb-object" is a rule that does not produce any kind of formal system. < 1327907109 261436 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :kejoki: you can specify a syntax in various ways, including string-rewriting rules, but even given a large and fairly nuanced vocabulary, you don't necessarily have a set of axioms < 1327907223 952007 :jajaja!a9e5658a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.169.229.101.138 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327907227 699383 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Parts of different kinds of religious beliefs. I am somewhat spiritual but not much. I also think is good idea different people can have different opinion on religious things. < 1327907231 865972 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: English is not "designed syntax," it's < 1327907238 267828 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"organic" < 1327907257 228078 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you bringing up english? < 1327907320 720190 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: because it's late and that was the first natural language that came to mind. I left off the "as an example" < 1327907354 672735 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: are there any beliefs that you believe it is virtuous to believe? example? are there any religious things you think it is wrong to believe (factually or morally)? < 1327907365 374693 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do think texts and stuff of various religions can be good things to read; but don't simply agree everything they say, think about it yourself, too. < 1327907380 416323 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: unless the axioms are inherent in the rules. < 1327907407 440999 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :kejoki: you don't seem to have a comprehensive understanding of what a formal system is. < 1327907424 441574 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i say "rules" i mean something distinct from "axioms". every time. < 1327907476 783476 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: There are a few religious things which I believe to be factually wrong and/or morally wrong. There might be things I can consider virtuous to believe (I cannot think of specific examples of this time). But regardless, you must be able to think about these religious/philosophical things for yourself. < 1327907513 677600 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the axioms for the arithmetic of Natural numbers weren't set down until long after the rules. < 1327907524 662833 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i know what i believe. i have thought about it. i'm just asking about you. what's an example of a religious teaching you think is definitely wrong? < 1327907555 884718 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :kejoki: just now when you said "rules" you meant something that included the axioms. < 1327907563 755665 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :those aren't the kinds of rules i mean. < 1327907625 505293 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no such thing as a religious teaching; every thing taught to people is taught by other people < 1327907652 47674 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: teaching is a synonym for doctrine. there is such a thing as religious doctrine. < 1327907681 479358 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I have discussed "proper religion" on this IRC before. And, I never said you didn't know; that is OK (When I said, it is my opinion that you must be able to think about these things for yourself; I did not mean you (or anyone else) personally; I include myself in this "you"). (Just wait a minute or a few while I think of more to write...) < 1327907801 526606 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia TOPIC #esoteric :Brevity is the soul of keeping the link to the logs on my screen. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1327907806 201480 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many religious teachings can be good things to have if you do not simply blindly follow them. There may be very old religions, where some of the things they described would be factually wrong; however, some kinds of their spirituality might do (maybe). Morally is more difficult, since circumstances are also dependended. < 1327907880 855794 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :"dependended" this is now my favorite word < 1327907882 669350 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, religion should be unrestricted (restrictions include: copyright, patents, the government forcing you to follow a particular religion, and so on). < 1327907924 188336 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? you mean i shouldn't be allowed to patent my religious rituals? < 1327907942 883532 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-216-110.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: No, you don't get to pull a Hubbard. :) < 1327907973 887071 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose I have systems S and S', and they are the same, except that I have an axiom in S' that is a rule in S. Possible, or not? < 1327907982 782062 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :not. < 1327907995 371367 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Yes; that is part of what I mean. (Of course it is simply my opinion; but once you read it you should still possibly consider it since things can be written you can learn from it) < 1327908017 302209 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Religion may be more important for some people than for others, and that is a good thing and as it should be. < 1327908039 210478 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: if i were to patent my religious rituals, their descriptions become open source, since they are published by the patent office. takes all the mystery out my mysteries, dunnit? < 1327908090 447340 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spiritual stuff and religious stuff can be combined with philosophical stuff to thought < 1327908093 395553 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-216-110.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: That's what some people say science does to religion, and yet, last I checked, religion still exists. :) < 1327908143 589951 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: nonetheless, i wouldn't want the whole world to know just exactly what i do with your mother (and with goddess) when she decides to convert. < 1327908145 664265 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: No, they wouldn't become open source until they expired or a proper patent license exists (in either case, the document is still public; it is still open; but "open source" has a different meaning). It can take the mystery out. < 1327908206 552446 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: However, I would prefer, don't do too many secret things that nobody will say; such as bad things; it is sometimes abused so you have to be careful. Church of Scientology (which I consider an improper religion) does do many of these kind of bad things too. < 1327908232 588503 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: name something that you believe in that can never be explained by science < 1327908267 757326 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Religion can still exist; not everything is the stuff that science removes from religion. Science explains things objectively, and religion can explain things spiritually instead (which is not useful except for such things as meditation and so on). < 1327908303 331378 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Let me think... < 1327908421 234580 :primo_!~maik@ppp-124-120-48-27.revip2.asianet.co.th QUIT :Quit: Verlassend < 1327908442 134164 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever beyond the multiverse that would function the multiverse can probably never be explained by science; whether or not it exists. God (in my definitions, a somewhat more abstract than most, so it is more philosophically than religion) is not explainable by science (although beliefs in God might be explainable by science). < 1327908471 133534 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is God, to you? < 1327908486 267954 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: anything that can't be subjected to experiment, or verified by repeated experiment, can't be explained by science. Science is just a method. The rest of "it" is Natural Philosophy. < 1327908502 752643 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-216-110.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kejoki: So, anything that DNE < 1327908506 137507 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-216-110.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat trick. < 1327908507 108505 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: The entire system as a whole plus things outside of the system. < 1327908537 131997 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: DNE is a definition, not an observation. It's a belief. < 1327908565 974487 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-216-110.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kejoki: It's a belief in invisible dragons and teapots orbiting Mars. < 1327908569 545474 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kejoki: Yes, those are things not explainable by science; but then, you would not even verify its existence in that way (if it is *refuted* by repeated experiment, you can say it does not exist) < 1327908587 588273 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-216-110.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And equally ridiculous. < 1327908612 35438 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Invisible dragons and teapots orbiting Mars are physical objects. Even if they would be difficult to find, they are not the proper way of religion, which should properly deal with spiritual matters rather than physical ones. < 1327908641 868246 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1327908645 824268 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are spiritual matters? < 1327908667 194705 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure one of the numerous tiny rocks orbiting Mars may be used passably as a teapot < 1327908671 757010 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that was directed at you specifically < 1327908698 588091 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is difficult... < 1327908711 143939 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: phobos is probably big enough that a pint of tea at the center could be pressure-heated by gravity ;) < 1327908738 139363 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-216-110.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: But none of them are, most likely, the Utah teapot. :) < 1327908779 747897 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some things are difficult to explain in words, but cannot be explained without words, so what do you want to call it? If you call it a stick, you miss all the other important properties. If you do not call it a stick, you do not say what it is. < 1327908818 234634 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :This dilemma is easy solved with Wittgenstein < 1327909000 525576 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Catholic Church does have some fictitious saints (once believed to be real, but later found to be mistaken and never actually existed). People still invoke them in their prayer, and can feel better; their existence or lack thereof is unimportant. < 1327909003 638613 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I'll have to pick up on formal systems after I brush up on formal systems. You won this one, I need to find out how a rule in S can not be axiomatic in S'. A rule may be about manipulating symbols, but afaict an axiom is nothing but a rule that is assumed to be true < 1327909003 910792 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wittgenstein: words have no inherent meaning, language exists to be misunderstood, communication is a crapshoot, humanity sucks < 1327909041 676252 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Wittgenstein was a beery swine..." < 1327909333 645195 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :kejoki: axioms are such as "zero is a number" and "there is a successor function, such that the successor of a number is a number" and "one is the successor of zero" < 1327909361 102578 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :rules are like the law of syllogism which let us infer from the previously stated axioms that "one is a number" < 1327909571 340728 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :syntax is what dictates what sort of statements i can make. aka, the syntactical rule "subject-verb-object" says that "zero is a number" is a well-formed formula (which we take as an axiom) < 1327909858 208465 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we rewrite from axioms to conclusions using rules stated in an allowed syntax. This I get. We then use these conclusions as if they were axiomatic to do further rewriting. "conclusion" here is usually the RHS a textbook system. My sloppiness was conflating "rule" and "conclusion". < 1327909897 414633 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you conflated something else too < 1327909909 886399 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :grammar and inference rules < 1327909944 532401 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :inference rules do not have to obey any grammar constraints. indeed, a system may not even be able to coherently describe its inference rules with a well-formed formula < 1327909945 233969 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I apologized for say "grammar" when I meant "syntax" way back there. < 1327909958 815048 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :grammar=syntax < 1327910110 649640 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet a compiler writer would disagree with that. < 1327910155 696848 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :About my earlier comment about God: Actually, I have various ideas of God of which I think of many depending on circumstances and context. Really, there is no objective answer to this question. < 1327910191 858619 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I see your point about inference rules. < 1327910237 202339 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I can write more in other days too. < 1327910283 418441 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it's kind of strange the way compiler builders call specification of the symbol alphabet "syntax" and the syntax/grammar "grammar". really they should just be "this is the part where you use regular languages, and this is the part where you use LALR(1) CFGs" < 1327910293 904602 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't scan well... < 1327910406 74885 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327910862 728814 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327911221 600000 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :helo < 1327911221 801712 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. < 1327911296 485114 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oog < 1327911316 327627 :kejoki!~user@69.89.220.85 QUIT :Quit: falling asleep at keyboard. < 1327911442 705958 :Slereah!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-162-123.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1327911612 964289 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :nantes is a cool place < 1327911704 426994 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a number. < 1327915309 94079 :Slereah!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-162-123.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm right in it! > 1327915841 606104 JOIN :#esoteric > 1327915846 230868 JOIN :#esoteric > 1327915846 747544 JOIN :#esoteric > 1327915880 615635 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327915880 669134 :glogbot!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric > 1327915885 254296 JOIN :#esoteric > 1327915885 772292 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327917227 278427 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1327917264 333850 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327917476 400049 :jajaja!a9e5658a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.169.229.101.138 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1327918286 574098 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1327920243 507533 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (<*) < 1327920244 36601 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Applicative f) => f a -> f b -> f a < 1327920384 329134 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327921931 333816 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327922032 667672 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327922851 658906 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1D9C1.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327923667 887013 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1327923685 108051 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA < 1327923692 727289 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION murders quintopia in his sleep. < 1327923706 24941 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: your sleep, or quintopia's < 1327923726 482521 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia's, most likely. < 1327923772 351735 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It certainly sounds easier that way. < 1327923932 540742 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well, i guess all mediocre things must come to an end. < 1327923943 427051 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION still has no evidence that there are any good ones. < 1327924018 468266 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohhhhh, you're speaking of the topic. < 1327924027 909650 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was just a random murdering. < 1327924097 824631 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 TOPIC #esoteric :http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Putting the link to the logs at the start of the topic: the latest trendy subversion of 2012 < 1327924115 520869 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay! < 1327924217 101163 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :/_esoteric/logs/codu.org//:http | Best enjoyed using a little-endian browser. < 1327924239 641594 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:34:29: class alias (A a, B a, C a) => D a where { ... } < 1327924239 773145 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:34:34: I don't really understand the where clause. < 1327924261 3705 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably so you can write defaults, like fmap = liftM < 1327924334 773906 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :half the point is to be able to write Monad instances like they are currently, and still get Functor and Applicative automatically < 1327924419 77645 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideally you want all old code to keep working < 1327924476 768540 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1D9C1.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327924493 143628 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or as close to all as possible < 1327925341 745135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : The only sensible default behavior for hitting tab in the absence of defined tab-stops is to move to the next line. < 1327925349 296772 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally I found an appropriate place for tabs vs. spaces flamewars < 1327925354 187385 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I like dakta's thinking here < 1327925644 632962 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, I managed to get my highest-rated Reddit comment ever by bashing PHP < 1327925656 516255 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess this says more about Reddit than anything else < 1327926745 263058 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1327926869 919951 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1327926901 669450 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm interesting, this time i did an experiment with having two simultaneous putty sessions, and only one got disconnected. < 1327926930 861165 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and i forgot again to remember to get the exact error message, darn. < 1327926958 244427 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this makes me more suspicious that the error might be on the nvg servers rather than my isp (knock on wood) < 1327927085 416676 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it was the one with an IRC in it that got disconnected, while an idle one survived, it might be that TCP stacks' thing of only noticing things are broken when there's actually some attempt to send data. Pure speculation, of course. < 1327927146 278297 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn that is true < 1327927177 657482 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've even been careful to make sure to type in the irssi window occasionally < 1327927209 973778 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :_but_ the disconnect didn't happen while i did that, nor was anything coming from the channel < 1327927260 453510 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i put the putty's on different nvg servers, i've now put up a third one to check that. < 1327927332 709569 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am sure both of those servers have disconnected me recently when in irssi, though < 1327927455 635 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Networking is an inexact science. < 1327927529 613540 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. i am just hoping the isp didn't actually send a new router that was _worse_ than the old one. < 1327927650 908148 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difference from before is that now obviously the nvg servers _notice_ i've disconnected < 1327927668 864368 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the old irssi process disappears by itself < 1327927697 312927 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, my laptop gives no messages about disconnected cabling < 1327928448 91493 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1327928587 153846 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327929867 129899 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-216-110.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1327929932 285820 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-95.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327930254 629881 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1327930349 194090 :cheater!~cheater@dslb-084-057-001-153.pools.arcor-ip.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1327930763 488074 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327931296 500477 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1327931320 144817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327932093 271789 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1327932194 908571 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1327932585 783934 :confuser!~me@host-219-70-205-33.dynamic.kbtelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327933404 676704 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Away from the non-boiling pot < 1327934247 846281 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i was watching my brother play this puzzle game luxor < 1327934283 171481 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at first it seemed mysterious to my eyes, until i started to pay attention and notice what was going on < 1327934393 427341 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the game feeds you a stream of coloured balls, and those balls propagate along a curve and its bad if they reach the end of the curve < 1327934479 390904 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what you can do is insert a coloured ball into the stream sort of like a cannon < 1327934555 711995 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if your insertion causes a sequence of 3 or more then that sequence is removed from the stream and the left and right side connected < 1327934603 654714 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if those 2 sides connected forms a 3 or more sequence they too are removed, and recursive < 1327934747 791453 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it occured to me that skillful play involves setting up nested colours, and i thought aha thats where the fun is in the game < 1327934950 216543 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.249 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it occured to me also that this was some kind of, albeit limited, computation < 1327935582 831683 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1327938142 361203 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Quit: Changing server < 1327939197 354308 :kallisti!~eris@gate-20.spsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1327939197 670237 :kallisti!~eris@gate-20.spsu.edu QUIT :Changing host < 1327939197 723255 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1327939213 541048 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327939339 411487 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327941065 164627 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-146-167-148.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327941080 282998 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327941103 293036 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-146-167-148.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1327941108 647344 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1327941288 61220 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I got a reply from one of the MEPs I emailed about ACTA < 1327941298 451385 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-146-167-148.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay! < 1327941328 430760 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was from an MEP who used to be part of UKIP, left it, and stood for the UK's Libertarian Party in a general election, and is currently an independent < 1327941334 91398 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess what her stance on ACTA is :) < 1327941342 988290 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-146-167-148.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like today's Gunnerkrigg Court < 1327941370 527065 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also got a form letter back from the Conservatives saying that they'd bring it to the attention of the relevant people < 1327942322 240296 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327942337 472093 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1327942342 201621 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1327942351 148476 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-146-167-148.as13285.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327942382 498542 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1327942703 742075 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1327943213 368648 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327943495 145832 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (<=<) < 1327943496 48413 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall b (m :: * -> *) c a. (Monad m) => (b -> m c) -> (a -> m b) -> a -> m c < 1327943587 335483 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327943621 508941 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-59-140.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1327943621 711631 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-59-140.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1327943621 764665 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1327944268 84623 :Sgeo!~sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION witnesses elliott be wrong about something < 1327944269 941326 :Gregor!codu@codu.org TOPIC #esoteric :Putting the link to the logs in the middle of the topic: the even-more latest trendy subversion of 2012 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Putting the link to the logs at the start of the topic: the latest trendy subversion of 2012 < 1327944622 486756 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Putting the http:// link all over codu.org the place in the /logs topic: the utter-lattermost /_esoteric trendy subversion of 2012 / < 1327944808 167721 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (<*>) < 1327944809 49319 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Applicative f) => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b < 1327944879 6089 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :any word on why oerjan murthered me? < 1327944904 70009 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: because you moved the log links off oerjan's screen < 1327944925 416289 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor has probably just done the same thing < 1327944928 755285 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so may be in trouble at this point < 1327944986 611584 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is wrong with his screen? < 1327945248 639733 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: have you seen Backslash Calculus? < 1327945252 619587 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I guess it has limited width < 1327945257 448228 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most screens do < 1327945291 433251 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :so my shortening of the topic should have brought the log link onto his screen, not pushed it off... < 1327945319 142380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, oerjan implied it was a lengthening < 1327945361 543410 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I thought it was just the wipeout of the long-running optator stuff. < 1327945378 204636 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps quintopia has been murded unjustly! < 1327945408 453948 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327945840 133138 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`words --quenya 10 < 1327945853 280703 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown option: quenya < 1327945855 436138 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw. < 1327946979 692392 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phantom_Hoover: have you seen Backslash Calculus? < 1327946980 816742 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1327947000 762198 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: what do you think of the BF-like syntax? < 1327947010 143184 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reasonably sure it's an attempt to troll someone, but am not entirely sure who < 1327947012 944050 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and was wondering if it was you < 1327947026 898262 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a joke. < 1327947083 458897 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the whole language is a (usable) joke < 1327947103 473725 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL-style or whitespace-style joke, not unneccessary-style joke < 1327948363 990469 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1327949377 774232 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-148-11-115.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327949420 368781 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-148-11-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blerg < 1327949565 530473 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327949580 438235 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1327949640 949977 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327949664 760262 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1327951051 109700 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-11-115.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327951122 995941 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-148-11-115.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1327951388 546348 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-11-115.as13285.net NICK :Ngevd < 1327953095 265369 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204] < 1327953126 939213 :Frooxius!~chatzilla@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1327953660 798490 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1327953853 469317 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : perhaps quintopia has been murded unjustly! <-- IMPOSSIBLE < 1327954021 74294 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Sgeo witnesses elliott be wrong about something <-- that's what he gets for leaving #esoteric < 1327954396 179958 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-148-11-115.as13285.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327954418 762658 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-148-11-115.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327955818 36102 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-148-11-115.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Goodbye < 1327956011 562159 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1327956809 897334 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-226-192.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327956890 992510 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1327957121 679615 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327957928 712481 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-59-140.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1327957929 16723 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-59-140.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1327957929 69618 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1327957961 695131 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1327958139 159028 :kallisti!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327958139 525403 :kallisti!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host < 1327958139 579694 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1327958425 382941 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1327958429 383558 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327958441 581872 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327958471 111772 :Phantom__Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327958742 278881 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1327958905 117833 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1327959271 17327 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327959503 107944 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1327960341 848582 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1327960490 48508 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess this is more of a C question than a Haskell question, but it relates to FFI < 1327960505 481353 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the initializer for the Haskell runtime wants a pointer to argc and argv < 1327960527 948914 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm running Haskell in an environment where I have no access to an argc and argv. so I'm trying to fabricate argc and argv < 1327960538 719090 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, why don't you have an argc and an argv? < 1327960541 114553 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hs_init, the initializer, wants argv to be char*** < 1327960548 784460 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... < 1327960555 264072 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 and a pointer to a char** containing NULL is technically correct < 1327960562 491837 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but unusual, and I'm not sure if GHC would like it < 1327960568 631608 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :do I need to allocate memory for that? I tried to use a char array within a char* array < 1327960571 653475 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it complains < 1327960573 520020 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, a pointer to an int containing 0, and a pointer to a char** containing NULL < 1327960583 4612 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti_: right, it should complain at that < 1327960599 536076 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd need to allocate memory because argv is mutable < 1327960604 40365 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for reasons I don't fully understand < 1327960608 203262 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can do it like this: < 1327960655 913706 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I /may/ just try passing NULL < 1327960670 466613 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :char argument0[] = "/bin/myprog"; char argument1[] = "-option"; char* argv[] = {argument0, argument1, NULL}; int argc = 2; < 1327960684 44376 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :allowing the arrays to decay into pointers < 1327960691 707543 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's basically what I said that I'm doing. < 1327960720 336028 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that's what I'm doing < 1327960722 800264 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :with global variables < 1327960735 816697 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that the stack allocated memory doesn't disappear (don't actually know if that's a problem. I'm bad at memory management. :P ) < 1327960799 382567 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :note: expected ‘char ***’ but argument is of type ‘char * (*)[1]’ < 1327960805 935857 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe pointer decay only happens when you pass an array to a function. < 1327960824 695853 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, oh < 1327960825 660428 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1327960834 114601 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should reference the char[][] < 1327960836 737799 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shouldn't < 1327960841 808403 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead I should make a char[][][] < 1327960851 290463 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that will decay into the correct type (I think) < 1327960863 763033 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :.....or would a cast fix all of this. < 1327960973 503027 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti_: char *(*)[1] is a function pointer type < 1327960979 290091 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure you just didn't typo somewhere? < 1327961003 889221 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh.... < 1327961031 252952 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, possibly? I don't know now. < 1327961048 688071 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1327961052 524615 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't think I did. < 1327961070 848649 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea where it could be getting a function pointer.... < 1327961092 686501 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :char fake_name[] = "bayes"; < 1327961093 466979 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :char *fake_argv[1] = {fake_name}; < 1327961107 817365 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(within a function) < 1327961111 87453 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : hs_init(&fake_argc, &fake_argv); < 1327961147 64174 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gives a warning. however if I define another top-level array and stick fake_argv in that, and then pass that array to hs_init < 1327961150 143032 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I get no warning. < 1327961170 317550 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait can I do... < 1327961205 690952 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :char fake_argv[][][] = {{"bayes"}} < 1327961209 817932 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would simplify things. < 1327961223 289800 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-148-11-115.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327961228 84155 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti_: but that's an array of array of array < 1327961232 481418 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that's what I want < 1327961235 234328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't decay anything but the outermost level to a pointer < 1327961241 670346 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-148-11-115.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1327961245 642065 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Ngevd < 1327961248 61015 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay, that's what I thought actually. < 1327961257 886762 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :char **fake_argv[] = {{"bayes"}} < 1327961262 984873 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing this would give me the same warning. < 1327961277 635557 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, no < 1327961278 520968 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, now I'm flummoxed as to what, if anything, that means < 1327961289 680645 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's just a parse error < 1327961294 179639 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :did I mention that I'm really really bad at C. < 1327961351 528274 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :bayes.c:14:1: warning: braces around scalar initializer < 1327961354 798677 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you tried my suggestion? < 1327961366 718924 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first one? yes I tried it before it was even suggested. < 1327961391 394322 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what happened? < 1327961423 311473 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...it was the warning that I was originally given < 1327961428 962355 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the reason I asked the question. :P < 1327961451 423963 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I've found a way that works but it seems incredibly silly to me. < 1327961454 879402 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that's just how C works. < 1327961462 197618 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327961594 436783 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :char fake_name[] = "bayes"; < 1327961594 538897 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :char *fake_argv[] = {fake_name}; < 1327961594 595915 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :char **fake_argv_ref[] = {fake_argv}; < 1327961595 280876 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int fake_argc = 1; < 1327961600 508670 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this produces no warnings... < 1327961609 424873 :kallisti_!~eris@h230.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but is incredibly silly looking :P < 1327961665 143074 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-78-148-11-115.as13285.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327961971 323923 :PiRSquared17!~PiRSquare@wikipedia/PiRSquared17 QUIT :Quit: . < 1327962110 260366 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I want some IOCCC /results/! < 1327962129 813045 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: didn't they take a really really really long time last time? < 1327962133 922677 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt they'll be fast this time :) < 1327962284 7445 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how long they took last time. < 1327962646 456938 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :just five years or so. < 1327962743 610142 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not to /judge/ .... ??? < 1327962816 319078 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: yes, they took such a hilariously long time that everyone assumed the contest had died < 1327962857 256304 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE8B17F.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1327963099 28606 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I didn't realize that the huge delay had been even before judging. I thought they had finished the whole competition and then just not run a new one. < 1327963306 612586 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1327963659 952215 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :char **fake_argv = ((char*[]){"foo", "bar", 0}); if you want to be all C99-compound-literal about it -- probably can be extended that one more level if you insist, with more horrible syntax -- but the give-the-other-objects-names-too is probably more common. < 1327963771 735992 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhhh, I don't think that's legal. < 1327963792 867368 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it compiles. < 1327963800 51285 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :As does char ***fake_argv_list = ((char**[]){ ((char*[]){"a","b",0}), ((char*[]){"c","d",0})}); < 1327963801 578719 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, then I'm either wrong or GCC is very forgiving *shrugs* < 1327963827 975033 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that's incorrect, though, because it violates const-correctness < 1327963838 810674 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why wouldn't it be? Compound literals can be arrays, and an array decays to a pointer to the first element. < 1327963841 359742 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, argv contains /writable/ strings < 1327963846 715037 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to the standard < 1327963852 341274 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, const correctness is a really boring reason why it's incorrect *shrugs* < 1327963852 765463 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas your argv is populated with string literals < 1327963862 531368 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have seen programs that write to argv < 1327963870 24905 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even written one, although admittedly it was for the IOCCC < 1327963874 15359 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not the most recent one, the one before) < 1327963884 707135 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: There's no rule a "fake_argv" needs to contain writable strings in the standard. < 1327963896 354704 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That would be one weird rule.) < 1327963911 775939 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: no, the standard's rule is about the real argv < 1327963918 12873 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm assuming that a fake argv is something that acts like argv < 1327963920 746923 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from not being argv < 1327963978 152043 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a silly assumption. Especially when paired with such a strong word as "incorrect". There's nothing "incorrect" about that line as it is. < 1327964057 109814 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Touché! < 1327964082 291085 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I'm a bit unclear about the lifetime of a compound literal in file scope. < 1327964178 247886 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in file scope, probably the whole program, right? < 1327964193 129356 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what common sense would suggest. < 1327964233 51003 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1327964344 68128 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, string literals is still better than string literals and no null-pointer-termination as was seen above. < 1327964381 380117 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, that one had a writable string. Well, anyway. < 1327964545 415847 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also the easy fix of simply doing char ***fake_argv_list = ((char**[]){ ((char*[]){ ((char[]){"a"}),((char[]){"b"}),0}), ((char*[]){((char[]){"c"}),((char[]){"d"}),0})}); < 1327964585 85705 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: oh right, why didn't I think of that? < 1327964599 198350 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm both joking and serious at once) < 1327964605 31454 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because it's both ridiculous, and something I should have thought of) < 1327964661 966103 :augur_!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327964744 644899 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Half of those parens are probably unnecessary, I just have this habit of sticking an extra () around the full compound-literal.) < 1327964819 595777 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1327965033 37725 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1327965273 372320 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your search - "sensationalised news for builders" - did not match any documents. < 1327965275 113221 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1327965470 483448 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your search - "build systems for build systems" - did not match any documents. < 1327965519 400421 :Jafet!~Jafet@149.171.48.193 JOIN :#esoteric < 1327965519 938614 :Jafet!~Jafet@149.171.48.193 QUIT :Changing host < 1327965519 991488 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1327965917 755578 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1327965947 628508 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hmm, that's certainly a cromulent search < 1327965958 104323 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need a decent flowcharting tool to draw C-INTERCAL's < 1327966177 822520 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : [[Download Stability of Multi-Dimensional Shock Fronts: A New Problem for Linear Hyperbolic Equations pdf ebook. Buy cheap pdf ebooks/audio books for iPhone/iPad/Android/Kindle.]] < 1327966181 158735 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's quite the article title < 1327966514 39891 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd read that. < 1327966522 785000 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or ... would I LISTEN to it?!?! HAHA AUDIO BOOK < 1327966550 110715 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :always make sure your multi-dimensional shock fronts are stable < 1327966571 734233 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-95.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :PDF audio books? < 1327966575 278534 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-95.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit, Adobe! < 1327966719 267138 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :adobe listener < 1327966771 938797 :Gregor!codu@codu.org TOPIC #esoteric :Putting My Little Pony references in the topic: the even-more-more latest trendy subversion of 2012 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This topic is the WORST. TOPIC. EVER. < 1327966794 237774 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was thinking it was about time with a topic change < 1327966839 885474 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*for < 1327966858 195768 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did it wrong anyway. < 1327966865 213228 :Gregor!codu@codu.org TOPIC #esoteric :Putting My Little Pony references in the topic: the even-more-more latest trendy subversion of 2012 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | This topic is THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. TOPIC. < 1327966868 326449 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am ashamed. < 1327966890 727523 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now it's inaccurate. < 1327966905 197765 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But at least it's internally consistent. < 1327966915 607518 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the last must certainly have been worse, since you got it wrong < 1327966955 176839 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't the fact that it's an accurate reference to My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic in the #esoteric /topic make it worse? Isn't an accurate reference worse than an inaccurate one, for the sake of topicality? < 1327967031 586854 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps. all i know about my little pony is other people's complaints about it. < 1327967053 960594 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :People who complain about it are terrible people. You shouldn't associate with them. < 1327967085 865132 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1327967187 366240 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: perhaps it's a reference to a different My Little Pony series < 1327967193 770179 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently there are four and Friendship is Magic is the only good one < 1327967204 645466 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is close to the extent of my MLP knowledge, apart from some names that have been dropped) < 1327967249 885733 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :You people. < 1327967251 265806 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU PEOPLE. < 1327967279 595590 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am somewhat confused by Gregor apparently liking it and still thinking putting it in the topic is horrible < 1327967302 981449 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :there might be sarcasm involved, i guess < 1327967303 422812 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :*atopical < 1327967305 811756 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lots < 1327967363 466519 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1327967393 637588 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you made ais523 ragepat again < 1327967475 171043 :Systemzwang!miekko@infa.abo.fi QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1327967481 638513 :Systemzwang!miekko@infa.abo.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1327967516 706524 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :come see the zwang inherent in the system < 1327967523 905015 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolwut < 1327967574 45345 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, that's not systemwang < 1327967689 677735 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :das ist egal