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00:10:26 <Vorpal> <colloinkgravisom> Vorpal: It doesn't provide any UTF-8 functions, so I'm not sure why you picked that excuse. <-- iirc fizzie said it had unicode support?
00:11:34 <HackEgo> 2008-06-24.txt:20:45:55: <AnMaster> however "extern inline" and "inline" without extern have reversed meanings beteween gnu89 and C99 iirc
00:11:34 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3080
00:11:39 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.30914
00:12:09 <Vorpal> wait, 2011-12-24.txt:13:07:23: <fizzie> Anyway, for string literals "foo" is in char with unspecified encoding, L"foo" is in wchar_t with unspecified encoding, u"foo" and U"foo" are in char16_t and char32_t, respectively, with unspecified encoding unless those macros are defined; and, finally, u8"foo" is also in char, but explicitly UTF-8 encoded.
00:12:17 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, fizzie ^
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00:12:50 <Vorpal> anyway it wouldn't apply here, due to SOCK doing byte IO anyway
00:13:17 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, INDEED
00:13:18 <colloinkgravisom> Vorpal: Anyway, I said it had UTF-8 literals approximately one line below, jesus christ.
00:13:34 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, well... that is stupid
00:14:41 <colloinkgravisom> Vorpal: Well, you could write a perfectly cromulent UTF-8 library in fully portable C99; what you _couldn't_ do is write any kind of literal that has any kind of guarantee of being UTF-8, AFAIK.
00:14:56 <colloinkgravisom> It's just that nobody actually has a problem with that and the library would be useful.
00:15:36 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, fuck WG14 (iirc?) again
00:17:12 <colloinkgravisom> Does C even need updates? Why are they publishing new standards.
00:17:26 <colloinkgravisom> Probably the only reason the working group even exists any more is to employ people.
00:18:43 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, well, someone need to spend a year talking about how to best to correct a minor typo that didn't actually change the meaning of the standard
00:18:51 <Vorpal> it is a vitally important job
00:21:10 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, that died out
00:21:34 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, anyway you have to admit Funge-98 is way less precise than C99
00:23:38 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, yes but there are two issues with it: 1) it is a test suite, not a carefully worded spec, thus making it more work to figure out why something went wrong 2) it is not actually official as such, thus meaning it doesn't carry the force of an official spec
00:23:46 * Sgeo has a lot of trouble seeing reasons to avoid typeclass abuse if it makes things easier.
00:23:57 <monqy> im dead inside now
00:24:30 <monqy> because it doesn't make things easier, because there is a better way, because ;_;
00:24:41 <colloinkgravisom> Sgeo: hint: when you do terrible things and argue above your level of expertise and demonstrate extended ignorance over a period of time without devoting a large amount of effort to trying to understand why many others who are more experience than you are telling you to not do something
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00:29:43 <pikhq> colloinkgravisom: There is precisely one encoding, and that is UTF-8.
00:30:24 <pikhq> C does not ship with a cromulent UTF-8 library, it ships with an ASCII library and a wishy-washy "wide character" library.
00:30:29 <pikhq> Thus, C is fundamentally broken.
00:30:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, precisely one encoding for what?
00:31:33 <pikhq> (yes, I'm aware there's technically other encodings, but as far as I'm concerned there's UTF-8, pointless isomorphisms with UTF-8, and broken)
00:31:47 * Vorpal forces pikhq to use some weird DOS code page
00:32:26 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, that would have saved a /lot/ of trouble
00:32:29 <pikhq> Vorpal: NO DON'T MAKE ME USE LEGACY JIS
00:32:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, you have to use CP864
00:33:02 <pikhq> colloinkgravisom: '91? That predates UTF-8.
00:33:04 <Vorpal> you have to learn that language now
00:33:12 <colloinkgravisom> Vorpal: either you don't understand what i'm saying or are weird
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00:33:25 <pikhq> colloinkgravisom: Yup.
00:33:35 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, I mean, people doing it right earlier on would have saved a lot of trouble
00:33:41 <colloinkgravisom> pikhq: "there is precisely one encoding and that is <EXISTING CHARACTER ENCODING>"
00:34:04 <pikhq> colloinkgravisom: Hell, I would even accept UTF-16 *if* it got to be ubiquitous.
00:34:10 <Vorpal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Character_encoding <-- what a mess
00:34:14 <zzo38> Unicode has many problems, in my opinion
00:34:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, it is on windows
00:34:32 <pikhq> zzo38: Yes, but it has fewer problems than essentially all the alternatives.
00:34:36 <colloinkgravisom> pikhq: my point is that the zealotry doesn't really help because if we build systems that can't handle changing encoding then they won't be able to adapt to anything better than unicode
00:34:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: In the API.
00:34:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, that and ASCII. At least you can detect which is which from the byte order mark
00:35:28 <pikhq> colloinkgravisom: What I'm *trying* to say is that we should try not to encourage further use of legacy encodings.
00:35:33 <Vorpal> indeed unicode have many problems, starting with there being multiple encodings of it
00:35:50 <pikhq> And C not having a reasonable handling of UTF-8 built in is one of those.
00:36:08 <pikhq> Is one thing that encourages further use of legacy encodings.
00:36:22 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, what about string.h?
00:36:35 <pikhq> colloinkgravisom: Strictly speaking it has an "8-bit character set" library that on common systems amounts to an ASCII library.
00:36:38 <colloinkgravisom> unfortunately, to take advantage of that, "unsigned char" has to be able to store every character you care about
00:36:55 <pikhq> colloinkgravisom: Minimum 8 bits.
00:37:08 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, it has to be 8 bits or larger and a multiple of 2 bits iirc?
00:37:08 <colloinkgravisom> i'm saying that you could have a 32-bit unsigned char with correct isalpha() behaviour, etc.
00:37:11 <Vorpal> or something like that
00:37:17 <pikhq> Vorpal: Just 8 bits or larger.
00:37:18 <Vorpal> perhaps power of two bits
00:37:23 <colloinkgravisom> so you'd be restricted to >=32-bit types, and a lot of space would be wasted, etc.
00:37:31 <pikhq> And anything more than that is only found on the Deathstation 9000.
00:37:34 <colloinkgravisom> but I don't think C actually forbids a Unicode implementation at all
00:37:35 <zzo38> LLVM is designed better than C.
00:37:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm. What were the old POSIX restrictions on char?
00:37:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, before it decided "exactly 8 bits due to intersection of old rules and C99 rules"
00:38:08 <colloinkgravisom> pikhq: which is presumably why wchar_t started existing: so that you could implement decent character semantics without the knock-on effects of a larger char
00:38:27 <colloinkgravisom> I have a hunch that text handling is outside of C's domain in the first place, though
00:38:31 <pikhq> colloinkgravisom: Of course, wchar_t itself has problems.
00:38:35 <Vorpal> I believe wchar_t is 16 bits
00:38:39 <colloinkgravisom> s/char/byte/g and remove all the functions that purport to operate on text
00:38:40 <pikhq> UTF-32 is a variable-width encoding.
00:38:43 <Vorpal> and it is a pain to interface with
00:38:44 <Sgeo> colloinkgravisom, helpful: Not shouting at me constantly
00:38:54 <Vorpal> I used ncursesw at one point
00:38:58 <pikhq> Vorpal: wchar_t is *typically* 16 bits.
00:39:15 <colloinkgravisom> Sgeo: yeah what i just said to you was all full of the rare sight known as a "lowercase shouting"
00:39:23 <Vorpal> (I needed Swedish output)
00:39:45 <pikhq> colloinkgravisom: Meh; C is a bad language if you want portability anyways.
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00:39:54 <colloinkgravisom> Sgeo: it's called exasperation, you're responding to criticism and advice by just ignoring the bits you don't like and insisting on going with what you are, and then inciting people to re-defend what they've already defended without you having attempted to rebut them
00:40:01 <pikhq> At a minimum you need POSIX.
00:40:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, it is what current systems are built upon sadly
00:40:23 <Vorpal> at some layer all common systems today are C
00:40:30 <pikhq> colloinkgravisom: Yup.
00:40:41 <colloinkgravisom> i don't think you quite need POSIX though :) more like intersection(POSIX, Windows)
00:40:44 <pikhq> colloinkgravisom: That's so you can implement a conforming C system for DOS 1.0.
00:41:16 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, problem is, POSIX call it foo(char*, int) while windows calls it bar(int, HANDLE, char*)
00:41:40 <colloinkgravisom> Vorpal: eh... mcmap compiles on both POSIX and Windows save the platform-specific header files
00:42:06 <zzo38> Can the Haskell type newtype T v f x = T (T x f v -> f x); have join?
00:42:09 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, indeed. Also windows use almost-bsd-style sockets
00:42:15 <colloinkgravisom> mmap_handle_t resize_mmap(mmap_handle_t old, void *old_addr, int fd, size_t old_len, size_t new_len, void **addr);
00:42:23 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, apart from network you run into more differences
00:42:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: Windows uses ported BSD sockets.
00:42:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: Not just BSD-style.
00:42:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, I thought function names differed?
00:42:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's actually a port of the 4.4 BSD stack.
00:42:48 <zzo38> Can it be made a category if type argument are moved?
00:42:56 <Vorpal> and what colloinkgravisom said
00:42:57 <pikhq> *With* a tiny couple of additions to integrate better with Win32 oddness.
00:43:18 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, anyway try output anything but ASCII or colours to the console, as far as I remember you will run into issues on windows then
00:43:46 <colloinkgravisom> basically windows supports all the ansi stuff but only via syscalls :P
00:43:46 <zzo38> ANSI.SYS is only for DOS programs, I think
00:43:49 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, anyway the windows console is stuck in DOS codepages iirc
00:44:03 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, from what I remember of trying to output Swedish chars during a lab at university
00:44:04 <colloinkgravisom> Vorpal: hmm, that would surprise me. there's powershell and all that which reuses the terminal
00:44:45 <pikhq> Strange. At a *minimum* I'd expect it to do Windows legacy codepages.
00:44:47 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, I /think/ you can do some wchar_t stuff to make it work. Except you still need different code for Windows and Linux to get something like åäö properly output
00:45:05 <pikhq> Actually, I bet it infers which charset to use
00:45:09 <Vorpal> but with char? It is code page mapping of those chars
00:45:39 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, possibly
00:45:47 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, I just know it is a PITA
00:45:49 <pikhq> DOS executables -> DOS codepage, Win32 command line -> Windows legacy codepage or Unicode, depending on what the resources say
00:46:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, well it could be windows legacy codepage
00:46:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, what it wasn't was UTF-8, UTF-16 or even the same encoding that visual studio used when you wrote the letter in the file
00:46:31 <Sgeo> colloinkgravisom, I'm pretty sure you started out speaking in a hostile way, and misunderstanding what I was doing. Even though I see a way to proceed without typeclass hackery, your attitude does not help me realize that.
00:46:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, if you do puts("åäö"); in visual studio you ain't going to get that out
00:47:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: Recent Visual Studio is almost certainly using a UTF.
00:47:24 <Vorpal> pikhq, I think it was vs2005
00:47:39 <pikhq> I mean, jeeze, Windows *95* supported UTF-16.
00:47:47 <colloinkgravisom> Sgeo: sigh. you've moved from phase I, denial, into phase II, indignancy. i would be less harsh if your behaviour wrt terrible ideas was not so completely predictable. like i said: whatever, code what you want, but at least i have dibs on saying i told you so when it doesn't work like you want or how it should for the reasons I said.
00:47:59 <colloinkgravisom> Sgeo: i didn't misunderstand what you were doing at all, also.
00:48:00 <pikhq> (long filenames are encoded via UTF-16)
00:48:13 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, what is phase III?
00:48:17 <colloinkgravisom> i said it was incomprehensible; that doesn't mean i didn't understand what you were trying to do.
00:50:14 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, for science you must check the next time
00:55:48 <colloinkgravisom> Sgeo: here is the last i will say on the forkCap thing: haskellers expect the text of a program to portray its meaning. they expect a single expression to be abstract and mean one thing; building other expressions out of them should not drastically change the meaning of a subexpression. this is a directly anti-magic philosophy: we (and by "we", i mean "people actually experienced with haskell") expect code to mean what it says, and say w
00:55:49 <colloinkgravisom> hat it means. when we see "makeCap forkIO", we expect makeCap to do some transformation on an opaque value of type (IO () -> IO ThreadId). we do not expect "makeCap (forkIO . buildIOActionFromGivenString)" to cause a fundamental change in meaning just because someone broke the semantics of the language with dangerous and easy-to-misuse extensions. but by "inspecting" the types like this, you introduce such a fundamental meaning change. a
00:55:49 <colloinkgravisom> nd indeed, we do not expect "makeCap (id :: a -> a)" to mean one thing, but "makeCap (id :: IO () -> IO ())" to mean another. again, your "solution" (if it works; I would expect it to blow up on id, actually, due to the polymorphism) breaks this. even the "n-argument" thing breaks this: "makeCap (id :: a -> a)" vs. "makeCap (id :: (a -> b) -> a -> b)". such a thing is interesting only as a fun perversity, a "what not to do". to call it "
00:55:54 <colloinkgravisom> easier" because it obscures meaning, makes abstraction far more difficult and confusing, and acts in a brittle, unpredictable manner that "looks" at its arguments in ways we do not expect well-behaved black-box abstractions to... is one of the worst applications of the word "easier" i can think of. and it's not like you have any real excuse for any of this, either, as i already presented a dirt-simple solution with no hackiness at all th
00:55:59 <colloinkgravisom> at properly used the capabilities of the facility you are trying to utilise, Safe Haskell.
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00:58:16 <Sgeo> Thank you for the Safe Haskell IO a -> Cap a solution, btw
00:58:55 <Sgeo> But I do feel uneasy with it, because it seems almost too easy that someone might write a Cap () to do whatever with it and claim that this usage is safe
00:59:55 <colloinkgravisom> of course in the ideal object-capability solution nobody can synthesise a capability like that, they can only compose new ones out of the ones they've been given. it's just that the IO functions in Haskell represent the capability to do anything.
01:00:04 <colloinkgravisom> obviously constructing capabilities from that is a very risky business.
01:00:14 <colloinkgravisom> there's no way to avoid that if you're embedding capabilities like this.
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01:00:53 <Sgeo> I don't see the issue with makeCap though. Unless someone uses unsafePerformIO, the capability they create can't just be used by some malicious Cap
01:01:40 <colloinkgravisom> do { let cap = Cap (print 42); ... } === do { cap <- makeCap (print 42); ... }
01:02:07 <colloinkgravisom> your only use of IO in the original was to restrict capability creation to maximally-privileged things (which happen to be the same things that can execute IO actions, coincidentally)
01:02:37 <colloinkgravisom> <Sgeo> But I do feel uneasy with it, because it seems almost too easy that someone might write a Cap () to do whatever with it and claim that this usage is safe
01:02:58 <colloinkgravisom> so unless you have an actual concrete example of how this is less secure (it isn't, in any way)...
01:04:37 <Sgeo> launchMissilesCap :: Cap (); launchMissilesCap = Cap launchMissiles -- I think I need to understand Safe Haskell a bit better. But suppose someone wrote a library that did this
01:04:41 <Sgeo> And marked it as Safe
01:05:12 <Sgeo> Well, I guess it would need to be Trustworthy to be used by a untrusted code?
01:05:25 <Sgeo> colloinkgravisom, ^^question
01:05:35 <colloinkgravisom> i don't know much about safe haskell, check the docs, but it's irrelevant
01:05:58 <colloinkgravisom> the whole point of Cap is that you only pass it around and don't offer global things because that disrupts the object-capability modfel
01:06:06 <colloinkgravisom> if you install something that maliciously violates this by using an unsafe module
01:06:27 <colloinkgravisom> the module already has Unsafe in the name, so if you REALLY need that extra hint
01:06:33 <colloinkgravisom> it's not like such code couldn't just use unsafePerformIO in the first place
01:06:42 <colloinkgravisom> which is on the exact same level of safety as the Cap constructor from your POV
01:06:46 <Sgeo> But that same unsafe module needs to be used for the top-level program to make its legitimate capabilities
01:07:43 <colloinkgravisom> obviously you cannot give power to create arbitrary capabilities without giving the power to abuse it
01:07:52 <colloinkgravisom> Safe Haskell is not a substitute for NOT INSTALLING MALICIOUS LIBRARIE
01:08:02 <zzo38> Is the compiler capable of automatically marking modules as safe?
01:10:11 <Sgeo> colloinkgravisom, in case you're wondering what makeCap id does: Makes a capability that allows something that has it to execute arbitrary IO
01:10:30 <colloinkgravisom> Sgeo: basically you're saying that the IO creation doubles as a way to stop you declaring top-level ones. but it doesn't really, because Cap.Unsafe and its contents (the constructor) is on the exact level of unsafety as System.IO.Unsafe.
01:10:33 <Sgeo> At least, I think so
01:10:49 <colloinkgravisom> yay, you can't predict how your own hard-to-understand hack magic works!
01:12:29 <Sgeo> colloinkgravisom, but there's more of a community aversion to abuse of unsafePerformIO than there is to abuse of UnsafeCap, especially since UnsafeCap needs to be used anyway in legitimate capacity.
01:13:31 <Sgeo> I guess, though, that people will consider any libraries that abuse UnsafeCap to be literally worthless and ignore them, though
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01:14:55 <colloinkgravisom> Sgeo: but UnsafeCap should never ever be used in a top-level definition
01:15:46 <colloinkgravisom> there are rules, they have to be followed, it's as simple as that
01:15:59 <colloinkgravisom> even a fully object-capability system has to have a carefully-written implementation to expose the top-level capabilities without bugs
01:17:29 <Sgeo> colloinkgravisom, what about by the untrustworthy code that gets the capabilities to do whatever as an argument? Is that not a top-level def.. derp. But that's still a type of something -> Cap whatever at the top level
01:17:45 <Sgeo> (Although not a use of UnsafeCap at the top level)
01:18:44 <colloinkgravisom> the point of Cap is just restricting the only values of type (Cap a) (apart from trivial (return x) and the like) that can be constructed to ones that are passed in as parameters
01:18:57 <Sgeo> There's a value of type Cap a -> Cap (). There's also a value of the same exact type made with UnsafeCap
01:21:46 <Sgeo> That looking at a type is insufficient to see whether abuse of UnsafeCap is going on
01:22:39 <colloinkgravisom> the only unsafe thing is exposing an actual capability (which is a term that only makes sense within your system; broadly for you it seems to be "any actual IO effect") to something not passed it
01:23:41 <colloinkgravisom> and since Cap.Unsafe is on THE EXACT SAME SAFETY LEVEL, and must be used with THE EXACT SAME CAUTION as System.IO.Unsafe, because they do the SAME THING: exposing IO actions in contexts where it is not safe-by-default to do so
01:24:19 <Sgeo> *Capabilties System.IO.Unsafe> :t unsafePerformIO . makeCap $ readFile
01:24:19 <Sgeo> unsafePerformIO . makeCap $ readFile :: FilePath -> Cap String
01:27:13 <colloinkgravisom> Cap doesn't really represent capabilities, it's just an IO monad with a convenient wrapper so that you can't use Haskell's non-object-capability libraries
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02:05:37 <quintopia> where the hell does one find a name like colloinkgravisom
02:10:32 <HackEgo> lprom hortal affore stanzkur cripth suppo diopseud nehangiti heretaturg nec bel fordfinin kev nunane frtheodii
02:10:41 <HackEgo> to pembaress subftraptayhei dinver witchraur bsclfseueno latowpre farmetor asters peron excens monres niesteigeumedeidetic torectonlogodickedj co edessac ne sumop phanty kaltylvilbp ing seed bamparibury gopackenia thcral ii fionio rooklee wel ren ats semer mulere nues ber ohathro hephebratatersavandous sowerotfoluu inocy phigbera cludawhivocadopiren nain volmorowinac gaischicisa bourfinonsob yoe cheathaliolinfintegui diungstlerd sions chafle
02:11:03 <colloinkgravisom> `words --eng-all --spanish --french --swedish --finnish --catalan --eng-fiction 25
02:11:14 <HackEgo> sortónics pristat porvente lenlauca leindia gar gegnetsertis pontroya ellerka uppinkstis cre stau endra pondovàclon iyillejari isés codeter ölteftwat cantitlir orallnotavere omeofy speräks crecun shvillej revol
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02:14:21 <colloinkgravisom> quintopia: btw the full title is Colloinkgravisom of Hexham tyvm
02:15:20 <colloinkgravisom> quintopia: the house of Colloinkgravisom has a long history, marred only by the fact that nobody can spell our name
02:16:10 <quintopia> i have never said anything untoward about the coloingravisomes, m'lord
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02:27:01 <androidgravisom> it's a "scroll excel" 7" tablet which is under suspicion of being THE CHEAPEST
02:32:14 <quintopia> it came preinstalled on this thing
02:32:34 <androidgravisom> oh good this thibg comrs bundled with anf i quote "advanced task killer 3"
02:33:05 <androidgravisom> new innovations in shit i sgouldnt hace to do in the first place
02:34:32 <androidgravisom> etf this tuihg desny cone qih android narket hkw xo i get aps onto it
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02:35:54 <quintopia> yeah this came with a decent application manager preinstalled. task killers are things that kill programs running in the background. you know, like operating system services :P
02:36:19 <colloinkgravisom> quintopia: i stand by my "shit i shouldn't have to do in the first place" assessment
02:36:56 <colloinkgravisom> quintopia: oh good, it comes with its very own application installer
02:37:46 <quintopia> colloinkgravisom: you dont need a task killer. most apps have some way to kill them, and those that dont can be killed by the app manager (which is like any system monitor really)
02:38:05 <colloinkgravisom> quintopia: yeah, which is why it's the first thing in the appliaction grid thing :P
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02:43:08 <quintopia> its just called Market v3.4.4 here
02:43:55 <fizzie> "There's no access to the official Android Market built-in, but you can get apps from other app stores such as Handango or Opera Mobile Store. Most budget tablets don't have the official Android app store onboard because Google isn't too keen on certifying cheap kit." -- CNET
02:44:14 <colloinkgravisom> googling "install android markaet" shows people putting it on ~unauthorised devices~
02:45:11 <fizzie> But it's "3D". (In that it can play something something 3D over its HDMI out.)
02:45:13 <colloinkgravisom> application settings -> "Hidden google application", with lowercase "g", no description
02:45:46 <quintopia> party rock is in the house tonight
02:45:56 <quintopia> and we gonna make you lose your mind
02:46:00 <colloinkgravisom> "To get the Android Market on this tablet click on settings, select applications and select hidden Google application. Go back to home screen and keep your finger on a empty space, an add to home screen pops up select widgets and select market icon , you can now sign in or make a new account by selecting the market icon on your home screen."
02:46:41 <fizzie> That's the awesomest if.
02:49:11 <colloinkgravisom> it looks like i have to keep this hideous widget on my homescreen to open it tho
02:49:46 <fizzie> Apparently the same setting exists on the "Ainol Novo 7 Advanced Tablet".
02:50:59 <colloinkgravisom> androirc and andchat are the top two results obviously one of these must be the best per loic
02:51:07 <quintopia> i use irssi connectbot myself, but andchat is what most peeps use
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02:51:27 <colloinkgravisom> hmm i think andchat is the one sgeo uses, maybe i'll go with androirc :)
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02:54:53 <quintopia> DECIDE NOW AND FOREVER HOLD YOUR PEACE
02:55:30 <quintopia> did you figure out where to get swype
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03:02:15 <quintopia> colloinkgravisom: it is, i think, once you get used to it. make sure you size it as small as you can though, cuz it gets hard to use when you make it bigger.
03:02:32 <quintopia> also, turn on the line thing that shows where you've swiped
03:02:49 <colloinkgravisom> i take it that i basically just draw out the letters i want right?
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03:03:22 <quintopia> type out words that arent in the dictionary and add them
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03:10:32 <colloinkgravisom> quintopia: behold my attempt at saying "Oh neat, it has speech recognition." and "I'd have a field day if fizzie was here."
03:14:15 <quintopia> i use the speech recognition to write texts sometimes
03:14:47 <quintopia> probably, error exists between chair and mobile device
03:16:22 <colloinkgravisom> quintopia: is there a way to tell swype not to assume im typing dictionary words into this shell :P
03:16:50 <quintopia> just type on it like a regular keyboard if you dont want to use dictionary words
03:17:24 <quintopia> yeah. read the patent for it. it's pretty fascinating.
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03:35:57 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, you have a new phone? What brand/model?
03:37:39 <colloinkgravisom> Vorpal: tablet actually. <androidgravisom> it's a "scroll excel" 7" tablet which is under suspicion of being THE CHEAPEST <androidgravisom> But! Hey, 1 ghzes!
03:38:05 <Vorpal> I never heard of either the brand or the model
03:38:09 <colloinkgravisom> Vorpal: it's so legit that the android market app, which google only licenses for use to more respectable models, is accessible by turning on a setting named "Hidden google [sic] application" and tapping in a blank space on the home screen
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03:38:49 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, so is the hardware bad too?
03:39:24 <Vorpal> what is the form factor then?
03:39:39 <colloinkgravisom> oh man, you can get svg antivirus for android. that's what i've always wanted: a mobile i have to worry about viruses with
03:40:16 <Vorpal> 7" is small for a tablet
03:40:22 <Vorpal> it is like... a very large phone?
03:40:29 <colloinkgravisom> Naked Scanner Free - "See through your friends' clothes!!! Trick your friends taht you can see them naked!!! Sexy girl, man and fat!!! included."
03:40:32 <Vorpal> and damn that looks sheep
03:40:43 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, what? really?
03:40:47 <Vorpal> that is pre-installed!?
03:41:02 <colloinkgravisom> Vorpal: it's less cheap than it looks there actually, the plastic is actually black
03:41:05 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, in the official android store?
03:41:36 <Vorpal> the apple one is draconian though
03:41:48 <colloinkgravisom> ShakeBoobs. only description is "shake the girls' boobs". these are in like the top 30 apps
03:41:58 <colloinkgravisom> along with twitter and opera and all kinds of respectable things
03:42:30 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, the obvious solution would be to add a safesearch style option
03:42:43 <Vorpal> or is there one and you turned it off?
03:43:01 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, I meant to have that as an /option/.
03:43:07 <colloinkgravisom> oh man. angry birds. do i dare. do i dare find out what all the fuss is about
03:43:15 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, angry birds is old
03:43:30 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, I played that with snes light guns once iirc at a friend's place
03:43:50 <Vorpal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_gun
03:44:15 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, I confused it with that duck hunting game
03:44:42 <Vorpal> duck hunt, played that with snes light gun once
03:44:47 <Vorpal> the accuracy was /terrible/
03:45:20 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, I saw a guy at university running the free demo version of it on a phone
03:45:25 <Vorpal> well, it looked like classic
03:45:30 <Vorpal> with somewhat different blocks
03:45:35 <Vorpal> and the controls were super-awkward
03:45:54 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, classic on /computer/ is far far better
03:46:43 <Vorpal> how the hell do you pronounce that?
03:47:08 <Vorpal> what if the letters are at different ends of the keyboard?
03:47:12 <zzo38> They should make it with physical keyboard
03:47:44 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, what happens if there are multiple alternatives
03:47:59 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, how do you know it is a completely different codebase?
03:48:08 <Vorpal> I mean sure some stuff, like the input code, has to be different
03:49:12 * Sgeo intends to sleep tonight
03:49:47 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, anyway the issue with the side grass is that to solve it you either need like two extra triangles per side slightly in front of the brown area, or you drop the tricks you can do with monochromatic textures
03:49:50 <colloinkgravisom> (you just flick "server is visible" on from within a game to let people join, it seems)
03:49:58 <Vorpal> wait, those trick won't work anyway
03:50:08 <Vorpal> because minecraft doesn't use modern shaders
03:50:15 <colloinkgravisom> "scanning for wifi games" wtf is this only for local network games
03:50:15 <Vorpal> it is the old stateful opengl iirc
03:50:30 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, P2P minecraft?
03:50:56 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, on a phone the controls where /really/ awkward
03:51:03 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, might be better on a larger pad
03:51:14 <Vorpal> and of course accuracy with touch screen is terrible compared to mouse
03:51:22 <Vorpal> might be a question of how used you are to it
03:51:26 <Vorpal> but also I have big fingers
03:51:32 <Vorpal> as already established
03:51:48 <colloinkgravisom> quintopia: is that cyanogen thing i've heard about applicable to this device
03:51:59 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, look, my hand can if I stretch it reach from ctrl to enter on a full sized PC keyboard
03:52:16 <colloinkgravisom> i love how blatantly this thing's look is ripping off the ipad
03:52:33 <Vorpal> it looks worse designed
03:52:40 <Vorpal> at least it looks like a matte surface
03:52:43 <colloinkgravisom> it has the black front/whiteish back thing, and the same kind of name positioning on the back
03:53:28 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, I assume it isn't that?
03:53:35 <Vorpal> due to being like the cheap one
03:54:17 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, if you want to play some good breakout I can recommend lbreakout2 on linux
03:54:22 <Vorpal> iirc it is in ubuntu repos and so on
03:54:30 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, and you liked it?
03:54:57 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, I like the addon level sets with all-explosive tiles and so on
03:55:08 <colloinkgravisom> eliminated the whole "quit application"/"opened application" stuff
03:55:12 <Vorpal> or like all "add the drop-through protection/extra ball"
03:55:18 <Vorpal> the results look so amazing
03:55:46 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, well, having a task manager can be useful sometimes
03:55:49 <Vorpal> like if an application hangs
03:56:00 <colloinkgravisom> "copy music to your phone with a USB cable" really now, really.
03:56:10 <zzo38> Does it have Astrolog?
03:56:11 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, can't you just use bluetooth for it?
03:56:24 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, on the box or what?
03:56:54 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, does it have tilt sensors?
03:57:16 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, be careful when playing pinball then!
03:58:05 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, can you explain why in http://image.ebuyer.com/UK/P600-0294945-06.jpg it says "Outputs 3D videos" on the computer screen photo on the box?
03:58:15 <Vorpal> it doesn't make any sense
03:58:24 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, huh? how?
03:58:48 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, so uh... what?
03:58:56 <Vorpal> isn't that up to the video?
03:59:11 <Vorpal> as long as your monitor supports whatever 3D glass technology you want to use
03:59:14 <colloinkgravisom> presumably it's just "has support for whatever hdmi protocol is used for 3d"
03:59:41 <Vorpal> HDMI is horrible IMO. Long live DVI and DP
04:00:01 <zzo38> They are all horrible. NTSC is better
04:00:08 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, all the DRM stuff
04:00:21 <Vorpal> zzo38, that isn't a cable type
04:00:24 <zzo38> Make NTSC stereovision protocol consisting of a synchronization signal followed by alternating frames for each channel
04:00:27 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, but it has support it
04:00:53 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, well this one isn't generic and it has support for it
04:01:18 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, so too tired to argue about it further
04:01:48 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, depends on where. Not for computer monitors
04:01:59 <zzo38> Yes, HDMI is bad due to DRM, but other thing too
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04:02:11 <Vorpal> DVI is the best one IMO
04:02:12 <zzo38> So I just use VGA or NTSC
04:02:23 <kallisti> 18:39 < monqy> i remember the subject of sour cereal came up in a discussion with kallisti and i searched for sour cereal and found sourcereal but I can't remember anything more
04:02:24 <Vorpal> zzo38, problem is they don't give digital signal
04:02:49 <Vorpal> zzo38, anyway the refresh rate of NTSC is lower than that of PAL isn't it?
04:03:37 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes it is true they don't give digital signal. And because of that, they cannot mix it up. If the signal is defective it *must* be converted using time base correction or whatever else is wrong with it
04:04:01 <Vorpal> zzo38, the problem with it not being digital is that you get noise
04:04:16 <zzo38> Yes, that is true; you can get noise.
04:04:23 <Vorpal> zzo38, which is utterly annoying
04:04:36 <Vorpal> thus why I use digital connectors for my computer monitor
04:04:44 <zzo38> The other way to fix digital protocols is to simplify it so much that nobody can implement DRM or encryption or whatever because that would violate the protocol and everything
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04:05:06 <Vorpal> anyway there is analogue encryption protocols
04:05:29 <zzo38> Use trademarks to prevent people from violating the protocol
04:05:36 <Vorpal> doubtful it would work
04:05:52 <zzo38> Because, then if they do it wrong, they are not allowed to claim it is a proper cable/protocol!
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04:06:13 <Vorpal> anyway my GPU has outputs for all the major monitor connections
04:06:36 <Vorpal> DVI-I, DVI-D, HDMI, 2xDP
04:06:46 <Vorpal> and an DVI-I<->VGA converter
04:07:25 <Vorpal> so 5 connectors in total
04:07:37 <Vorpal> I believe it can support up to 5 concurrent displays too
04:09:52 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, what about it
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04:10:08 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, sleep schedules are for weenies
04:10:56 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, you lost it
04:11:01 <kallisti_> colloinkgravisom: I still think sugar with sour sugar stuff would actually be delicious.
04:11:21 <monqy> excellent excellent yes
04:12:11 <kallisti_> because sour cereal is spices it's important to get the right amount.
04:13:14 <Vorpal> you mean sour grass basically?
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04:13:37 <Vorpal> "Cereals are grasses (members of the monocot family Poaceae, also known as Gramineae)[1] cultivated for the edible components of their grain (botanically, a type of fruit called a caryopsis), composed of the endosperm, germ, and bran."
04:13:58 <kallisti_> I thought you were pinging me to inform me my other nick had disconnected.
04:14:00 <Vorpal> oh you interpreted it like THAT
04:14:22 <kallisti_> yes it's strange to receive a "^" before the thing that you're informing me of.
04:14:26 <Vorpal> so since it is grass I guess you can get high on cereal?
04:14:28 <kallisti_> since it typically... points at the thing
04:14:37 <Vorpal> <kallisti_> yes it's strange to receive a "^" before the thing that you're informing me of.
04:14:42 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> you mean sour grass basically?
04:14:42 <Vorpal> * kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
04:15:00 <Vorpal> you just disconnected in between
04:15:07 <Vorpal> kallisti_, so yes you are BLIND
04:15:22 <kallisti_> and, no, I don't mean DAT FIRE ASS NASTY DANK SHIT.
04:15:52 <colloinkgravisom> quintopia: so would cyanaanaoynoaynoanygen get me all the google apps this thing is too ashamed to include
04:16:01 <Vorpal> kallisti_, since when is cereal sugar?
04:16:04 <kallisti_> Vorpal: in sweden do they have sour canady?
04:16:26 <kallisti_> also in sweden, are certain cereals (like the cold cereal you eat in a bowl with milk) coated in sugar?
04:16:27 <Vorpal> kallisti_, I think so? I don't like it. Generally in the form of rather sour jelly thingies
04:16:38 <kallisti_> now imagine, you put the sour sugary stuff from those candies
04:16:42 <Vorpal> kallisti_, you mean like muesli?
04:17:29 <Vorpal> muesli is generally all-organic fair-trade stuff without sugar
04:17:33 <kallisti_> AMERICAN MUESLI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frosted_Flakes
04:17:46 <Vorpal> kallisti_, this is very strange to me
04:17:58 <Vorpal> kallisti_, we only put sugar where it belongs
04:18:12 <kallisti_> no it's actually really good, but also we have unsugary cereals and those are good as well.
04:18:16 <Vorpal> kallisti_, we don't get quite as fat either
04:18:26 <quintopia> colloinkgravisom: cyanogenmod is a desktop environment sort of thingy. a home screen/app screen replacement? widget dock? i've not used it.
04:19:16 <kallisti_> Vorpal: that's because you expend immense amounts of energy keeping your body warm in the lifeless arctic wasteland tundra that you decided to take residence in.
04:19:44 <Vorpal> kallisti_, anyway I'm sure sugar can be put on most things it is just that it probably a) tastes horrible in many cases b) is unhealthy in most cases
04:20:02 <kallisti_> well we don't actually put sugar on everything
04:20:14 <kallisti_> but... that's not as incredibly inaccurate as it should be.
04:20:14 <Vorpal> kallisti_, do you know what the gulf stream is?
04:20:31 <Vorpal> kallisti_, that is why Sweden is not a "lifeless arctic wasteland tundra"
04:20:39 <Vorpal> kallisti_, we get heated up by it
04:21:18 <Vorpal> kallisti_, cold yes, but not tundra
04:21:59 <Vorpal> afaik there are no tundra areas in Sweden unless you count some high altitude mountain areas with glaciers. But then Switzerland has those too, and it is much further south
04:22:46 <Vorpal> kallisti_, and I live much further south
04:22:47 <kallisti_> I'm just going to continue saying ridiculous things and Vorpal is going to continue believing that I mean it.
04:22:58 <colloinkgravisom> <quintopia> colloinkgravisom: cyanogenmod is a desktop environment sort of thingy. a home screen/app screen replacement? widget dock? i've not used it.
04:23:01 <Vorpal> kallisti_, the ground isn't even frozen today
04:23:12 <Vorpal> kallisti_, it is a very warm winter this year
04:23:28 <Vorpal> kallisti_, I take everything serious unless otherwise noted.
04:23:53 <kallisti_> last year at this time it was below freezing
04:23:59 <Vorpal> kallisti_, I accept SI units and celcius
04:24:10 <Vorpal> that means I'm fine with Kelvin
04:24:48 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, what was the convert tool command?
04:25:00 <Vorpal> to convert from insane temperature
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04:25:09 <kallisti_> Vorpal: Celsius, obviously. I'm boiling alive.
04:25:25 <Vorpal> kallisti_, come on that is not boiling. Boiling is 100 C
04:25:52 <kallisti_> which is insanely warm for this time of year
04:26:05 <Vorpal> also the problem with all these units for temperature is that they don't even share a zero
04:26:07 <kallisti_> compared to usual, which is still pretty warm compared to most temperate climates.
04:26:18 <Vorpal> that means it is actually convert and add
04:26:25 <Vorpal> as in, not just a scaling factor
04:26:59 <Vorpal> both a scaling factor and a translation
04:27:07 <quintopia> the problem with all these units for temperature is all these units for temperature
04:27:21 <Vorpal> hm translation sounds so weird in 1D
04:27:36 <Vorpal> quintopia, really K is the only sane one
04:27:40 <Vorpal> quintopia, 2D temperature?
04:27:52 <kallisti_> colloinkgravisom: eat and then go to sleep. porbelm sloved
04:28:03 <Vorpal> kallisti_, how does that help
04:28:14 <quintopia> Vorpal: i'm trying to find the multiplier in projective geometry
04:28:47 <kallisti_> colloinkgravisom: sleep, so that your metabolism slows down, and then wake up in the morning at not so bad o' clock and eat a hearty English breakfast
04:29:01 <Vorpal> quintopia, hm what is the matrix for it? Can't you just do it in x and w with w as the homogeneous coordinate?
04:29:12 <Vorpal> or is that what you did?
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04:29:42 <Vorpal> quintopia, I /am/ familiar with OpenGL, 1 as second coord is obvious
04:29:56 <kallisti_> Vorpal: it solves his problem but demonstrating that it's silly because eating is not very time consuming.
04:30:16 <Vorpal> kallisti_, depends on what you eat
04:30:44 <Vorpal> kallisti_, some marine shelled animals who's name I forgot can take fairly long to eat
04:30:50 <quintopia> hurray, it's only multiplication now
04:31:01 <Vorpal> quintopia, it is a matrix multiplication however
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04:31:13 <Vorpal> quintopia, anyway it is a division too, to get the useful value out
04:31:25 <Vorpal> you need to divide x with w surely
04:31:26 <quintopia> yeah, but it's a dot product...the easiest kind of matrix multiplication!
04:31:29 <Vorpal> unless I missed something
04:31:51 <kallisti_> I just ate this http://www.bk.com/en/us/menu-nutrition/category1/menu-item1/index.html
04:31:55 <kallisti_> notice how it actually has sugar in it.
04:31:57 <quintopia> a single number results from the dot product
04:31:58 <Vorpal> quintopia, anyway don't you need a 2x2 matrix?
04:32:19 <Vorpal> quintopia, I guess that is a special case for this size?
04:32:40 <quintopia> dot products always give magnitudes :P
04:32:40 <Vorpal> quintopia, I'm used to doing M*V and then divide each component in V by the last one.
04:32:50 <Vorpal> I guess that would work here too
04:33:41 <Vorpal> quintopia, I don't know why dot product work here. But that makes it very convenient
04:34:27 <quintopia> it works because that is what homogeneous coordinates were designed to do...
04:34:44 <Vorpal> quintopia, I have to say I only used them for opengl
04:35:12 <Vorpal> quintopia, so my knowledge of them is limited to what I need for 3D graphics
04:35:35 <Vorpal> you can obviously use a 3x3 matrix for xyw
04:35:40 <quintopia> let me ever know if you get into quantum computers ;)
04:35:53 <Vorpal> quintopia, I hope not. I don't understand quantum
04:36:24 <kallisti_> Vorpal: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/world_according_to_americans.png
04:36:49 <Vorpal> kallisti_, I doubt most americans know the shapes that well
04:37:18 <Vorpal> oh right, I didn't read the text at the top
04:37:37 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, come on, those islands in the Mediterranean? I couldn't tell you their placement
04:37:54 <colloinkgravisom> things i've learned today: the best way to get Vorpal to miss that you're mocking him is to do it directly
04:38:14 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, I'm locked into serious-mode
04:38:54 <Vorpal> though I could tell you more about the European countries, and to some degree elsewhere as well
04:40:08 <Vorpal> wait is "boxing day" not an American term?
04:40:14 <Vorpal> I thought that was generic English
04:40:19 <Vorpal> as in both American and Brittish
04:40:25 <Vorpal> and probably NZ, AU and so on too
04:40:44 <colloinkgravisom> In the United States, where the day is often known simply as "the day after Christmas", business owners give gifts to people who make deliveries. Although the traditional gift is a fifth of Scotch, because fewer people drink these days the trend is towards non-alcoholic gifts.[5][6] It was formerly more widely observed in the United States, and was more widely known as Boxing Day.[7][8]
04:40:47 <Vorpal> kallisti_, what do you call that day then?>
04:41:20 <kallisti_> In the United States, where the day is often known simply as "the day after Christmas", business owners give gifts to people who make deliveries. Although the traditional gift is a fifth of Scotch, because fewer people drink these days the trend is towards non-alcoholic gifts.[4][5] It was formerly more widely observed in the United States, and was more widely known as Boxing Day.
04:41:23 <pikhq> colloinkgravisom: The 28th of March.
04:41:29 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, trying to remember the significance of that day
04:41:42 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, but probably yyyy-03-28
04:41:44 <pikhq> kallisti_, colloinkgravisom: Never heard of such a tradition.
04:42:15 <pikhq> I'm only aware of Boxing Day as a UK thing.
04:42:30 <kallisti_> colloinkgravisom: uh... March 28th?
04:43:26 <Vorpal> kallisti_, how well do you know the world map?
04:43:53 <Vorpal> monqy, depends on the projection
04:43:59 <kallisti_> I can successfully associate countries with continents, which is uncommon for Americans I think.
04:44:37 <monqy> I can't think of a map I'm any good at
04:44:50 <Vorpal> speaking of projections: https://www.xkcd.com/977/
04:45:07 <kallisti_> also in North American and Eurasia I can place a number of countries, with some countries being associated to general regions without the exact placement known.
04:45:22 <kallisti_> south american is a little fuzzy. Africa is very fuzzy.
04:45:43 <Vorpal> kallisti_, well I can do that with ease. Might miss out on some smaller ones. Like if they are above AU or in the Caribbean area
04:45:58 * pikhq likes the Dymaxion projection.
04:46:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, I prefer projecting onto a globe
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04:46:43 <kallisti_> Vorpal: I find your patronizing attitude annoying.
04:47:07 <Vorpal> kallisti_, I did not intend to do that
04:47:27 <Vorpal> kallisti_, I was just stating what I believe is a fact. I did not intend to offend you
04:48:18 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's not a projection, that's just a scale model.
04:48:27 <pikhq> And, yes, that is preferable by far.
04:48:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway it is an almost-identity projection onto a sphere
04:49:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, where did it say the projection had to be onto a flat surface
04:49:11 <kallisti_> dude you guys suck mercator projection is the best. If you need any other visual aid your MIND IS SMALL
04:49:39 <kallisti_> "A map projection is any method of representing the surface of a sphere or other three-dimensional body on a plane."
04:49:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's generally implied in the term "projection" when referring to maps...
04:49:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, which one is the equvitriangular one now again?
04:50:03 <colloinkgravisom> <kallisti_> Vorpal: I find your patronizing attitude annoying.
04:50:14 <Vorpal> pikhq, eh equvirectangular
04:50:30 <pikhq> Oh, equirectangular.
04:51:09 <pikhq> There's a few sorts.
04:51:43 <zzo38> Astrolog includes a map of the world, including Mollewide, and also includes a globe of the world, and can plot the equatorial positions of planets and their ascendant/descendant on the world map, and can plot the constellations on a map and on a globe
04:51:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, I was thinking of the one found in hugin the panorama tool
04:51:53 <Vorpal> it is just called equirectangular
04:52:18 <Vorpal> not sure which one that is
04:52:27 <pikhq> That's a class of projections.
04:52:36 <zzo38> It can also draw ley lines on the world map
04:52:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about a plain cylindrical projection?
04:53:03 <Vorpal> as in straight out onto a cylinder which is then unrolled
04:53:27 <pikhq> Class; Gall-Peters being a typical one.
04:53:36 <Vorpal> hugin is too imprecise
04:53:52 <Vorpal> Miller Cylindrical is listed there
04:54:05 <Vorpal> I wonder what a Triplane projection is...
04:54:06 <pikhq> (the projection there can vary based on aspect ratio and preferred parallels)
04:54:40 <kallisti_> map projections: the most interesting thing ever.
04:54:41 <zzo38> It doesn't include the tropics though.
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04:55:06 <Vorpal> kallisti_, it is pretty interesting yes
04:55:14 <zzo38> Also, there is one map with positions of planets shown, the one without that has no equator either.
04:55:24 <Vorpal> kallisti_, wait you are joking. You said you preferred Mercator
04:55:58 <kallisti_> I like to imagine antarctica as this huge mass of land larger than everything.
04:56:10 <Vorpal> pikhq, btw I don't understand dymaxion
04:57:22 <zzo38> But it ought to include the tropics, because the tropics are the declination of the beginning of the corresponding astrological signs on the ecliptic
04:57:34 <kallisti_> Vorpal: approximate the globe onto a polyhedron
04:58:08 <Vorpal> zzo38, why would anyone in here care about astrology?
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04:58:55 <kallisti_> "He attributed the north-up-superior/south-down-inferior presentation of most other world maps to cultural bias."
04:59:03 <kallisti_> north, just a cultural artifact, man.
04:59:31 <Vorpal> kallisti_, anyway map projections are interesting. Consider if you have a texture and want to project it onto a sphere. You will get different size on the pixels in different places
04:59:49 <zzo38> Vorpal: The astrological signs are really a unit of measurement on the ecliptic. Cancer=90 degrees, Capricorn=270 degrees. And possibly you know about the Tropic of Cancer and Tropic of Capricorn on the world map?
05:00:14 <Vorpal> kallisti_, there is absolutely no reason you couldn't paint the other end of the compass red
05:00:31 <Vorpal> zzo38, yes but they don't really interest me
05:02:10 <Vorpal> I like the butterfly projection too
05:02:21 <Vorpal> I never heard of it before I saw that xkcd though
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05:05:00 <zzo38> If you say people born under this sign are like this and with that sign should take advice like that, that is obviously nonsense; but astrological signs by themself are a valid units of measurement, although not very good because they make it hard to add and subtract.
05:06:09 <zzo38> (But, then, the months on the calendar can also make it hard to add and subtract, in mostly the same way that astrological signs are hard to add and subtract)
05:06:29 <pikhq> Good ol' Buckminster Fuller.
05:06:43 <zzo38> Yes! This is true!! Did you know that?
05:07:31 <pikhq> zzo38: Yeah, I actually was aware that the astrological signs did have that basis.
05:09:03 <zzo38> So now you can understand the tropics on the map, too.
05:10:20 <zzo38> Another way is to use Julian day numbers (unrelated to the Julian calendar).
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05:27:31 <kallisti_> challenge: invent a map projection that looks like a penis, and write a huge paper about it to convince people that it's actually not penis shaped it just LOOKS that way.
05:27:53 <kallisti_> bonus points if it's actually useful and accurate on many different measurements.
05:29:39 <zzo38> I would say such thing would be bad (at least, I would hate it and so would many people, but do so if you want to anyways I don't care) if it isn't actually useful and accurate on many different measurements. But if it is useful in these uses, then yes try these challenge see what happen you might make good thing.
05:31:36 <Vorpal> kallisti_, oh the zzoian grammar there
05:33:14 <kallisti_> tthere is absolutely no way a penis-shaped map is going to be useful.
05:33:36 <zzo38> Yes, I also doubt it is ever going to be useful.
05:33:57 <zzo38> But it is possible, even in past, people said their airplane would never work but it work anyways.
05:34:51 <zzo38> I have no intention to invent such a map projection or write such a paper.
05:35:15 <zzo38> (That is your problem, not mine.)
05:36:21 <Vorpal> kallisti_, I suggest more equality between the sexes. Try a vagina-shaped one instead
05:37:09 <Vorpal> kallisti_, there are way too many penis joke compared to vagina jokes
05:37:24 <zzo38> I doubt that will be useful either but still you can try if you want to do so.
05:37:36 <Vorpal> I don't intend to try it
05:38:58 <Vorpal> Op. 40 II. Sarabande: Andante
05:42:27 <Vorpal> I wonder what wikipedia will be like in 100 years
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05:52:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: It will come with the words "Don't Panic" in large, friendly letters.
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06:11:16 <kallisti_> > text . join . zipWith (\x y -> '\ETX':x:y:[]) (cycle "0123456789") $ "I wish this would work"
06:11:17 <lambdabot> 0I1 2w3i4s5h6 7t8h9i0s1 2w3o4u5l6d7 8w9o0r1k
06:12:36 <zzo38> Yesterday, I was playing short D&D game session. My brother wasn't doing much during that session, I did most of the things. But still not much because it is short session. He did only fight a electric web and help me to pry a plate off of a door when I ask (at first I try doing it by hand but that doesn't work)
06:12:57 <kallisti_> `haskell import Control.Monad; main = putStrLn . join . zipWith (\x y -> '\ETX':x:y:[]) (cycle "0123456789") $ "I wish this would work"
06:13:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: haskell: not found
06:13:10 <kallisti_> !haskell import Control.Monad; main = putStrLn . join . zipWith (\x y -> '\ETX':x:y:[]) (cycle "0123456789") $ "I wish this would work"
06:23:28 <Vorpal> kallisti_, what do you expect it to do?
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06:49:52 <kallisti_> @tell Vorpal I expect it to do what it looks like it does, but lambdabot filters control codes.
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07:12:14 <NihilistDandy> I guess you could write your own little bot to do it
07:13:04 <NihilistDandy> Just tried a simple script. Obviously did not work
07:15:38 <itidus21> ^rainbow magi matio plakestic pawn jugliabita anked nium posin winita
07:15:38 <fungot> magi matio plakestic pawn jugliabita anked nium posin winita
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07:32:55 <kallisti_> (I already have my own little bot to do it)
07:42:11 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27399
07:42:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.185
07:43:20 <HackEgo> 25146/15625 (exactly 1.609344)
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08:05:36 <zzo38> I figured out another use of <>>= operator I made up, which is, like this: "Hello, World! The answer is 42." <>>= guard . (/= ' ')
08:05:54 <zzo38> And of course you can use it with any MonadPlus
08:09:05 <zzo38> So, <>>= can be used with IO monad and with list monad. It can also be used with other monads but I have not used <>>= with any others
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08:29:14 <zzo38> Is there a name for the applicatives where the "optional" function is lossy? IO is one of them (error messages get lost), but list isn't.
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08:51:10 <oerjan> 23:49:32: <PiRSquaredAway> `log .*
08:51:10 <oerjan> 23:50:04: <HackEgo> shuf: memory exhausted
08:51:23 <HackEgo> 2010-05-06.txt:18:43:36: <Phantom_Hoover> Conservapedia was pretty funny back in the day.
08:51:47 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | shuf -n 1 \ else \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ fi \
08:52:30 <oerjan> ah so without an argument it chooses the file first?
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08:54:05 <oerjan> technically shuf -n 1 should be implementable without memory overflow.
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09:03:16 <kallisti_> frink '$expr'| head -n $linelimit | head -c $charlimit
09:03:21 <oerjan> ceci n'est pas un pipe
09:04:11 <oerjan> is $expr escaped properly
09:05:21 <oerjan> presumably head -c closes its end before head -n finishes reading?
09:07:47 <fizzie> oerjan: They probably haven't bothered with special cases; and "shuf" itself of course isn't.
09:08:22 <oerjan> it sounds really stupid for head to be sensitive to that though, given that it's going to do the exact same thing against it's incoming pipe
09:09:52 <itidus21> ceci n'est pas une intelligence consciente
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09:20:45 * kallisti_ thinks it would be nice if lists were overloaded in Haskell.
09:21:11 <kallisti_> basically so that : and [] are typeclass methods and list literals/notation is overloaded to work with any kind of list-like structure.
09:21:19 <kallisti_> of course it would break the whole :-is-capitalized thing
09:25:19 <kallisti_> if you wanted to continue using the convenient : notation.
09:25:27 <kallisti_> otherwise you could just use a toList method.
09:25:39 <kallisti_> but then all of Data.List still only works with linked lists.
09:26:30 <oerjan> * kallisti WILL TAKE HIS CASH PRIZE NOW
09:26:42 <oerjan> that's that toy money on top of the t-rex, right?
09:31:29 <oerjan> <kallisti_> I'm just going to continue saying ridiculous things and Vorpal is going to continue believing that I mean it. <-- sounds like a plan
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09:49:38 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad; main = putStrLn . join . zipWith (\x y -> '\ETX':x:y:[]) (cycle "0123456789") $ "I wish this would work"
09:50:17 <fizzie> No bot is better than bad bot, like the saying goes.
09:50:44 <fizzie> fungot: Are you a friend or a foe?
09:50:45 <fungot> fizzie: it's just so stupid that ' stty erase h' has more bizarre results. it was, that he was overcome with the vastness, profundity, and fnord
09:51:35 <oerjan> let that be a lesson to those who try stty erase h
09:54:01 <fizzie> ^rainbow I think his version also used the color code 0, white.
09:54:01 <fungot> I think his version also used the color code , white.
09:54:52 <fizzie> Heh, the 0 got lost there, since there was nothing separating it from the preceding number.
09:55:18 <fizzie> (The above only cycles 2..9 to avoid black too.)
09:56:51 <fizzie> Away to find the pot of gold at the end of
09:56:52 <oerjan> what's the background one
09:56:53 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
09:57:14 <fizzie> You just put in ^CN,Mfoo
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09:59:52 <oerjan> ^ul (( )( )):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
10:01:24 <oerjan> ^ul (( )( )):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
10:04:06 <oerjan> ^ul ((0)(1)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
10:04:06 <fungot> 011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010 ...too much output!
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10:05:46 * oerjan wonders if those numbers show up for everyone
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11:53:02 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
11:53:08 <fungot> ((0)(15)(14)(1)(2)(12)(11)(10)(3)(9)(8)(7)(5)(4)(13)(6))(~^:()SSa~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a*~(█)S:^):^
11:53:43 <fungot> 011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110 ...too much output!
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12:32:08 <Taneb> > (ap (zipWith id . map (*)) id) [1..10]
12:33:21 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Enum (a -> a))
12:33:21 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `e_1110' ...
12:33:34 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable foldl1 :: Foldable t => (a -> a -> a) -> t a -> a
12:33:35 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable foldr1 :: Foldable t => (a -> a -> a) -> t a -> a
12:33:35 <lambdabot> Prelude foldl1 :: (a -> a -> a) -> [a] -> a
12:34:23 <Taneb> For the record, I am lagging, but I seem to be able to say things and read the logs
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12:35:53 <Taneb> My idea was weird and lame
12:37:01 <Taneb> > const (map (^2) [1..10]) "this does the same function"
12:42:15 <Taneb> I like my way of doing comments.
12:57:27 <fizzie> Madoka-Kaname: The Thue-Morse sequence: 0 1 10 1001 10010110 1001011001101001 and so on. At least that's what it looks like.
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14:44:11 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
14:44:32 <quintopia> its true, lambda. we dont have any location info
14:45:33 <elliott> colloinkgravisom of hexham
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14:46:06 <colloinkgravisom> 11:53:34: <Taneb> Any ideas for a Minecraft puzzle/adventure map?
14:46:06 <colloinkgravisom> 11:53:53: <Taneb> Specifically the grand finalay of a long one
14:47:35 <colloinkgravisom> 04:58:55: <kallisti_> "He attributed the north-up-superior/south-down-inferior presentation of most other world maps to cultural bias."
14:47:45 <colloinkgravisom> kallisti: Er, you do realise that north=up is as arbitrary as north=down?
14:47:45 <quintopia> yes there is. he totally speaks with an accent.
14:48:08 <colloinkgravisom> 04:58:08: <Vorpal> zzo38, why would anyone in here care about astrology?
14:48:23 <colloinkgravisom> @tell Vorpal I think you will find there is not universal agreement about this in the channel.
14:49:32 <Taneb|Hovercraft> I hope Vorpla joins the channel and says something really either obvious or controversial straight away
14:50:19 <quintopia> your modifier was correctly placed, and as such, your meaning was understood
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14:50:48 <colloinkgravisom> 07:42:11: <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27399
14:50:48 <colloinkgravisom> 07:42:31: <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.185
14:50:53 <HackEgo> lib/frink: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, not stripped
14:52:07 <colloinkgravisom> 09:26:42: <oerjan> that's that toy money on top of the t-rex, right?
14:52:31 <colloinkgravisom> `addquote <fungot> fizzie: it's just so stupid that ' stty erase h' has more bizarre results. it was, that he was overcome with the vastness, profundity, and fnord
14:52:32 <fungot> colloinkgravisom: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
14:52:35 <HackEgo> 779) <fungot> fizzie: it's just so stupid that ' stty erase h' has more bizarre results. it was, that he was overcome with the vastness, profundity, and fnord
14:55:37 <fungot> colloinkgravisom: am i that much bad. take up, boy; open't. so, now go with, do miscarrie, thou had'st bin resolute pompey
14:59:19 <iconmaster> So, I finished my article for Bloux today finally. Now, for the implemenation.
14:59:19 <lambdabot> iconmaster: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:00:44 <iconmaster> I still need to work on what logic sub-commands I will give the user
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15:15:52 <zzo38> I played pinball game today, and I earned fifty-eight extra balls. The score reels only show five digits but I earned over one million points (it can display the score to you separately from the reels if you ask for game stat)
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15:16:28 <Ngevd> You're either much better at pinball than I am or have found a really broken machine
15:17:28 <zzo38> It is actually a computer game. Normally you also get 2 more extra balls for beating the high score, but I don't like that feature so I removed it.
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15:21:01 <Vorpal> is the topic in the channel in Latin?
15:21:01 <lambdabot> Vorpal: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
15:21:27 <zzo38> Vorpal: I doubt it
15:21:28 <Vorpal> <lambdabot> colloinkgravisom said 32m 42s ago: I think you will find there is not universal agreement about this in the channel.
15:21:43 <colloinkgravisom> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-12-27#144808colloinkgravisom
15:21:44 <Ngevd> The usefullness of astrology
15:22:32 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, apart from the people who are into esoterica I very much doubt anyone here seriously believe in astrology
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15:22:47 <zzo38> About whether or not astrology is pointless. Even if it is agreed that divination doesn't work, that doesn't necessarily mean astrology is full of solely completely useless and wrong data.
15:22:54 <colloinkgravisom> Vorpal: Feel free to continue digging your own hole after I try and nudge you out of it.
15:23:18 <zzo38> You have to dig a hole by hand please, not by tools
15:23:46 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, I would have assumed that people here are too smart to believe it. But of course I may be wrong.
15:24:16 <colloinkgravisom> Vorpal: Is this what you think not digging yourself deeper looks like?
15:24:36 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, I don't care about offending someone who believes in astrology.
15:25:10 <zzo38> I don't believe it either; I know better than both the people who do believe in astrology and the people who argue against it saying the position of the sun is wrong or whatever.
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15:25:54 <Sgeo> colloinkgravisom, I was under the impression that a person in here who believed in astrology changed his mind?
15:25:55 <zzo38> (If you don't know better, I suggest you remove that userbox from your Wikipedia)
15:25:57 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, good, that saves effort in future facepalming
15:26:43 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't know. But I do know that oerjan made some horoscope for the first message of Agora Nomic, but without really understanding any of it
15:27:23 <zzo38> They simply used the default settings, made a screenshot of the horoscope, and copied the interpretation text.
15:30:34 * colloinkgravisom wonders how long it'll take for Vorpal to feel stupid, decides it'll be forever.
15:34:05 <zzo38> (Some have suggested combining astrology with psychotherapy in a way that doesn't require any of its divinatory predictions to be correct.)
15:35:12 <Vorpal> zzo38, I'm somewhat suspicious of that claim, but I lack the knowledge of what they are suggesting to make any sort of more precise statement about that.
15:36:39 <zzo38> As one person replied to Steiner (1945:210) when asked why she goes to an astrologer with her tropubles instead of to a psychologist: "An astrologer doesn't pry into all your secrets."
15:36:47 <zzo38> ("Tropubles" is in the original text)
15:37:08 <Vorpal> well, if astrology worked they kind of would pry into your secrets XD
15:39:42 <zzo38> Vorpal: O, yes. I suppose astrological psychotherapy is the way it is, then, because it is designed not to work and that is why it works. "Research indicates that, in factual terms, all astrological techniques are equally invalid. So use whatever technique you like, simple or complex, logical or crazy, it makes no difference. The only thing that matters is that you and your clients should like it."
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15:40:33 <HackEgo> xandy|: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
15:41:05 <zzo38> xandy|: Look in wiki please, in case you didn't already (some people might find the wiki first and then the IRC)
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15:41:29 <Vorpal> colloinkgravisom, we could make a bot that kept track of who had been in here earlier and automatically told them that if they were new.
15:42:14 <zzo38> Vorpal: Did it get cut off?
15:42:25 <Vorpal> zzo38, what getting cut off?
15:42:44 <zzo38> The message is supposed to " at the end, the one that I wrote
15:43:17 <Vorpal> zzo38, my irc client line add line breaks if a message is too long
15:44:30 <zzo38> I didn't think it was too long, I just wanted to make sure. Usually if a message fills up to three lines on my screen, it won't get cut off. So that is what I use
15:57:21 <zzo38> "The placebo effect is held to be the underlying reason why any successful psychotherapy works."
15:57:47 <zzo38> "Thus a gelatine capsule filled with sugar, and given with the assurance that it will bring sleep, will actually do so for about one person in three (Melzack & Wall 1983)."
15:57:57 <zzo38> "Placebos are effective even when people know they are receiving them (Levine & Gordon 1984), which should help astrology's effectiveness even when people believe there is nothing in it."
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15:59:00 <zzo38> "Indeed, the split is so wide that many psychologists now refer to the "scientist-practitioner gap," where "gap" is actually more like "war"."
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16:00:15 <zzo38> Skafte (1969), a psychologist and counsellor, tested the effect of introducing popular astrology (and palmistry and numerology) into personal and vocational counselling, for example by saying "a person born under your sign is supposed to enjoy travel -- does this sound like you?" The words were chosen to avoid implying validity and to promote dialogue.
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16:15:41 <Sgeo> Apparently, Leslie Nielsen and Liam Neeson are not the same person.
16:17:56 <zzo38> Who told you they *were* the same person?
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16:23:50 <Sgeo> No one, but the names are so similar that when I saw either name, I thought "Guy from Airplane!"
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16:53:45 -!- SimonDectro has changed nick to Gregor.
16:55:23 <Gregor> Wow, I've been SimonDectro for quite a while X-D
16:55:59 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian \ default: --eng-1M \ \ options: \ -h, --help this help text
16:56:23 <Gregor> `words --canadian-english-insane 40
16:56:27 <HackEgo> wood expurli avoudcappe sporally nitrain sulfover bebapp weave noneygregai ansensha liquoid piquel unad grancedalecturn centejud cretterorbit disessed vaitetrance rement fura sutummete hemetrop circular remut marlstere unopathima curtratin suppresting fostatine barpial rustic ponderweek out shaftonize arneura adahl mully requentrain borguel involum
16:56:28 <Gregor> What the hell is canadian-english-insane?
16:57:01 <Gregor> ponderweek <-- greatest
16:57:21 <Gregor> wood weave circular rustic out <-- it also generated a lot of real words
16:57:38 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Shaftonize.
16:58:51 -!- Shaftonize has set topic: We gonna shaftonize this channel | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
16:59:38 <Shaftonize> elliott (whoever you are today): I expect you to /nick shaftonise
17:01:12 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: And http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/natty/man5/canadian-english-insane.5.html
17:01:33 <colloinkgravisom> This package provides the file /usr/share/dict/canadian-english-insane
17:01:33 <colloinkgravisom> This list can be used by spelling checkers, and by programs such
17:01:33 <colloinkgravisom> This is an even larger list than the one installed by wcanadian-huge,
17:01:35 <colloinkgravisom> and possibly contains invalid words (as well as words that are very
17:01:37 <colloinkgravisom> uncommon). Nothing prevents you installing both (and others) at the
17:01:43 <colloinkgravisom> There are also -small and standard versions of this word list,
17:03:49 <HackEgo> undu gu coattes olzolftimancharghoblean efuntzionse peanorkjamjvas our tly prosegic restivoiriafs all sche talis riphisha endly rychroverment nefle tua ka imtusbutatiscetyl pusigalkelio hochesisman conareucorang go orprogis ri com enez mutiachinernis tcons xpossem ispoo pis fulotaicke beratber ged aruct fillate hanci strou traudupinse ric alkelihrs chiessoee pre fors latiking ing gresaler hted
17:11:30 <zzo38> Sometimes the dwarf planets are called subplanets, and someone called the planets the "uberplanets" and the dwarf planets the "unterplanets"
17:17:13 <colloinkgravisom> Jim Shaftonize and Colloinkgravisom of Hexham; they fight crime.
17:17:46 <zzo38> What are glyphs for dwarf planets Haumea and Makemake?
17:20:15 <zzo38> Uranus and Pluto each have two glyphs. Uranus has the astronomical glyph which can sometimes be confused with that of Mars, and the Herschel glyph which is more distinct and is the one usually used in astrology. Pluto has an astronomical "PL" glyph, and an astrological glyph which is similar to that of Neptune.
17:21:13 <zzo38> (Some astrologers use the Herschel glyph for Uranus and the "PL" glyph for Pluto; these result in more distinct glyph than other choices. Astronomers do not use the glyphs much.)
17:38:31 <zzo38> I think the dwarf planets and nearly certain dwarf planets that don't already have glyphs should be given glyphs. Although (225088) 2007 OR10 should probably be given a name before it is given a glyph.
17:40:09 <zzo38> That is, for the planets and dwarf planets of our solar system; objects in other solar systems probably don't need glyphs.
17:41:31 <Shaftonize> colloinkgravisom: Dude, Shaftonize doesn't have a first name.
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17:47:04 <Shaftonize> colloinkgravisom: colloinkgravisom's superpower is killing the bad guys while they try to pronounce his name. Shaftonize's is ... well, suffice it to say he Shaftonizes them.
17:50:14 <HackEgo> elpoilemina tarisma katshorjuman kiinnettiivoiduisempi siiltani psyviljet pääniksinuviytymin alustani mielevään fyys tärkitukeamattamakseen pääsevakseni tyllisellisi sellämme suomampana satalaisi puhelemme erologisempia virräpä tyyden kokoamalle varhaisimpänä kuvananne liimittaessa eliäisykseni utempinani syytämäävimmässämme vailemmistansa työstämissänne potpulanistiskunnikin cemballeegisimpää
17:50:15 <Shaftonize> I just really wanted it to finish giving me words.
17:57:10 <Shaftonize> It babbles incoherently while Erologisempia escapes.
17:57:22 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: Unfortunately, because the robot's speech recognition technology (written by fizzie himself) sucks really badly, he has never been able to give it a single command successfully.
18:01:01 <quintopia> "LONZOBOT! I have told you to stop three times, but it seems you have a HALTING PROBLEM! I'm going to solve you right now, AXIOMATICALLY!"
18:02:42 -!- Ngevd has joined.
18:06:20 <Ngevd> I just wanted to know about magic hexagons
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18:13:41 <Ngevd> Did you here about the mathematician who took a bus to work?
18:14:47 <Ngevd> The punchline needs work
18:15:16 <Ngevd> He works at a fast food restaurant in Helsinki
18:22:55 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:25:22 <oerjan> @tell colloinkgravisom Okay.
18:26:47 <oerjan> @tell colloinkgravisom Then why did you say yes.
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18:28:19 <oerjan> @tell colloinkgravisom Ah.
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18:29:37 <oerjan> <Madoka-Kaname> What is that exactly? <-- thue-morse sequence, also you missed the colors.
18:30:06 <lambdabot> colloinkgravisom: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:30:19 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3m 32s ago: Then why did you say yes.
18:34:24 <Shaftonize> <colloinkgravisom> Where does SuperTuring come in? // he's the stupidly over-powered superhero with no real weakness who's only written into the story as a mulligan when the writers realize they've painted themselves into a corner.
18:38:49 <Shaftonize> Anyway, here's my next impossible game idea (after ZEE, my first impossible game idea): A game in which you time-travel to absolutely any point in time (not just to certain periods), and the game engine propagates the results of your actions appropriately (runs Civilization against itself?) such that it maintains a consistent timeline. It would be like a very open-world RPG, with a selected group of "missions" that are only available if the timeline aligns
18:38:49 <Shaftonize> such that the person to give you the mission exists; or, you could just futz with the timeline and make yourself king.
18:39:47 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: The problem being that there has to be like at least one quest every few years or history is super boring, and writing a few thousand quests doesn't sound like fun.
18:40:10 <Shaftonize> colloinkgravisom: Quests could be available for the entire lifetime of individuals, or even whole families.
18:40:38 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: That's still a few hundred quests at the VERY least :P
18:41:13 <Shaftonize> A) I did call this an /impossible/ game idea, B) I don't think that's outside the realm of reason? That seems only slightly above typical I'd estimate.
18:41:13 <oerjan> or nations. like "regain our lost homeland from the infidels." that one seems to be quite popular.
18:41:47 <colloinkgravisom> (a) Yeah, but the best impossible things are possible things! (b) So you WANT to assume only one family is alive in the entire world for any given generation?
18:42:03 <Shaftonize> Besides, not every point in history has to have quests, if you have some McGuffin device to tell you when to go.
18:43:01 <colloinkgravisom> Let's say you go from 3000 BC (~Ancient Egypt) to present, and let's say there are 10 quests at any given time that are available for 200 years each... that's 250 quests.
18:43:13 <colloinkgravisom> I GUESS that would work, but 10 quests at any given period of history and not changing for 200 years seems lameish.
18:43:16 <oerjan> like the very borin tinsel age, where they had primitive metalworking but could only use it for decoration.
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18:44:04 <Shaftonize> colloinkgravisom: Honestly I don't think the difficult part is getting the quests/missions in. It's making the whole damned engine work such that you can kill a king and change a kingdom and all of the future, but kill a commoner and laugh as history doesn't remember him.
18:44:19 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: I take it I don't have to point out how unrealistic that is.
18:45:04 <Shaftonize> colloinkgravisom: You have to have the ability to make some big changes, or it's just dulllllllll, although most changes should fold into consistent timelines in a few hundred years at most.
18:46:05 <Shaftonize> ... yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahno. Unless that commoner also happens to be Jesus, you're probably OK.
18:46:19 <oerjan> but but, that commoner was the great great great great great great grandfather of einstein!
18:46:23 <colloinkgravisom> That line was a joke. But I think it's fairly obvious that even medium-fiddly time-travel expeditions could have pretty large effects *shrugs*
18:46:40 <colloinkgravisom> But presumably there's things you can to between killing a commoner and killing Jesus.
18:46:48 <Sgeo> Looking for legal to watch Star Trek episodes. StarTrek.com has TOS, Enterprise, and TAS available
18:46:51 <Shaftonize> That's the whole trick to it; if you pillage a whole town, it should have SOME effect on the future.
18:47:18 <colloinkgravisom> quintopia: Anyway, how the heck do you define "myth", I'm pretty sure nobody has studied the effects of time travel on civilisation :P
18:47:20 <Shaftonize> Basically, it's wholly impossible to run it such that individual-level changes CAN have an effect, but for the most part everything folds into a consistent global timeline.
18:47:47 <zzo38> I had other idea of computer games, such as five-dimensional pong
18:47:51 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: You just need to treat everything as a set of fuzzy constraints.
18:48:09 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: Like, the global timeline is basically a set of constraints saying "Christianity rises and economies go roughly like this and civilisations and blah".
18:48:13 <Shaftonize> colloinkgravisom: Yeh. With an obscene amount of tuning.
18:48:24 <quintopia> colloinkgravisom: i was just indicating that in the real world, things like weather have a large number of inputs, so even a large change to a part of that input is a small change to the whole of the input, hence to the system's future
18:48:26 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: And time travel effects add additional constraints with various weights, and you have a crazy massively-special-casing algorithm to work out a world from that :P
18:48:35 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to scamubtc4pp.
18:48:37 <oerjan> quintopia: i read once that if you consider how tiny changes in timing would affect sperm cells, even the slightest change to history would basically wipe out everyone in the future after a few generations
18:48:55 <colloinkgravisom> quintopia: Yeah, I don't buy it, because not every system acts like that.
18:49:15 <colloinkgravisom> And I don't think all real-world systems are as stable as the weather over time.
18:49:23 <Shaftonize> <oerjan> quintopia: i read once that if you consider how tiny changes in timing would affect sperm cells, even the slightest change to history would basically wipe out everyone in the future after a few generations <-- the exact individuals, yes, but the overall societal behavior? No.
18:49:28 <quintopia> oerjan: but even so, the things those people did would be done, by and large, by other people eventually
18:50:08 <colloinkgravisom> Is there an academic consensus on whether WWII would have happened without Hitler? :p
18:50:18 <Sgeo> Wipe out Fermat. What happens to mathematics? (At least, as far as math produced by the search for Fermat's Last Theorem goes)
18:50:20 <Shaftonize> colloinkgravisom: Also I was thinking of starting you off in a universe where your character has already fucked up history, so it doesn't have to match real history.
18:50:31 <Ngevd> colloinkgravisom, I'm pretty sure it would have happened
18:50:35 <colloinkgravisom> Sgeo: I don't think large branches of mathematics were developed in pursuit of FLT...
18:50:39 <Shaftonize> colloinkgravisom: That way the algorithms don't have to be tuned to reality, just realism.
18:50:50 <quintopia> colloinkgravisom: there are systems that change dramatically based on small changes in human life, yes. memes travel because of people, and social networks can amplify some small things
18:51:07 <Sgeo> colloinkgravisom, for some reason, I was under the impression that there were
18:51:46 <Ngevd> Imagine if Mark Zuckerberg had never gone to Harcard
18:52:24 <quintopia> then those twins would have made facebook instead and there would have been no competitor for myspace until google worked something up
18:53:03 <Ngevd> Imagine if Octavian had never gone to Harvard
18:53:10 <colloinkgravisom> I mean, it's hard to deny that Facebook has had massive effects :P
18:53:18 <Shaftonize> colloinkgravisom: Prove it with your time machine.
18:53:53 <Ngevd> Or had defeated Mark Antony earlier rather than forming the triumvirate with him and Lepidus
18:53:55 <Shaftonize> colloinkgravisom: Meet me in the future, I'm sure I'll have it.
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18:55:00 <Ngevd> Why is the name "asiekierka" familiar?
18:55:31 <Ngevd> He's a fan of Datastuck and an esoteric programmer
18:56:06 <oerjan> <colloinkgravisom> Sgeo: I don't think large branches of mathematics were developed in pursuit of FLT... <-- iirc ring theory got kickstarted from a botched proof of flt which assumed something like prime factorization worked for generalized numbers
18:56:38 <Ngevd> Binodu was an interesting concept
18:56:40 <Shaftonize> Naw, elliott is our f[l]avo[u]rite annoyance.
18:56:52 <Sgeo> o.O "Datastuck"?
18:57:22 <Ngevd> Sgeo, the unintentional Sweet Bro and Hella Jeff of MSPAFA's
18:58:28 <Ngevd> http://www.mspaforums.com/showthread.php?33810-Datastuck
18:58:56 * oerjan licks colloinkgravisom to test flavour
18:59:17 <Ngevd> To the sixth degree
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19:02:55 <Shaftonize> PORK! It's the meat of kings! It's made from pig, try it with onion rings!
19:04:54 <oerjan> well it certainly tasted like long pig to me.
19:08:43 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: Does yours have a super-secret super-unauthorised way to get the Android Market on it too?
19:09:20 <colloinkgravisom> I quote: "There's no access to the official Android Market built-in, but you can get apps from other app stores such as Handango or Opera Mobile Store. Most budget tablets don't have the official Android app store onboard because Google isn't too keen on certifying cheap kit." "To get the Android Market on this tablet click on settings, select applications and select hidden Google application. Go back to home screen and keep your finger
19:09:20 <colloinkgravisom> on a empty space, an add to home screen pops up select widgets and select market icon , you can now sign in or make a new account by selecting the market icon on your home screen."
19:09:46 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: Super-unauthorised by Google that is, not the manufacturer :P
19:10:39 <pikhq_> colloinkgravisom: The US loves cheap tech.
19:11:18 <pikhq_> Well, actually, it's more accurate to say: tech companies like pretending that $1 = £1 = €1 = ¥100.
19:11:40 <pikhq_> (... = 1.5 CAD = 2 AUD)
19:11:40 <Shaftonize> That's actually not bad. Resistive screen though I assume?
19:11:40 <colloinkgravisom> And now Shaftonize will tell me his has a 3 GHz dual-core Pentium 4.
19:11:54 <Shaftonize> Well then that's not even a cheap tablet.
19:12:05 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: ...I didn't actually tell you how much mine cost though :P
19:12:36 <Shaftonize> So, $125. Seems about right, little bit inexpensive for a capacitive.
19:12:38 <pikhq_> Which is like a hella-cheap tablet with a neat screen and no touch screen.
19:12:45 <Sgeo> I last stopped watching DS9 somewhere around early season 7
19:12:45 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: It's surprisingly non-shitty really, but it's still a really-tall-aspect-ratio 7" thing with a low-quality screen.
19:12:56 <Sgeo> Should I pick up where I left off, or rewatch some episodes?
19:13:05 <Shaftonize> But capacitive is what's really vital. Resistive touchscreens suck foot.
19:13:21 <pikhq_> (and thus not all that useful for anything but reading)
19:13:26 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: Yah... although this one isn't THAT good a touchscreen, they say it's capacitative so :P
19:13:55 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: I've basically avoided resistive devices entirely.
19:14:18 <Shaftonize> colloinkgravisom: Resistive touchscreens feel like a sheet of plastic over the screen. You can actually feel it indent slightly when you push on it.
19:14:33 <pikhq_> And you actually have to push.
19:14:52 <Shaftonize> If swype is usable without wanting to kill yourself, then it's not resistive.
19:15:19 <pikhq_> There is *a* sort of benefit to a resistive touchscreen, though. You can get really insane input resolution on it.
19:15:19 <colloinkgravisom> Swype makes up for the fact that the built-in on-screen keyboard is the worst thing I've ever used.
19:15:37 <pikhq_> Of course, unless you're using a stylus who gives a shit, your finger is Fat.
19:15:47 <colloinkgravisom> At first I was like "shiiiit now I know why everyone thinks the iPhone's keyboard is so much better" and then I was like "OMG THIS IS COOLER THAN DASHER".
19:16:33 <Shaftonize> Anyway, I think if I had any interest in a tablet PC I'd probably go with a "legit" brand, and maybe one of the few convertibles with detachable keyboards.
19:17:01 <colloinkgravisom> The detachable keyboard thing is ehhhhhhhh since you know it's gonna be really low-quality and small.
19:17:20 <pikhq_> Well, yeah. If you're getting a tablet as a toy, then why bother spending a lot?
19:18:19 <pikhq_> Query: should I root my Kindle? And if so, WTF should I do with it?
19:19:05 <pikhq_> colloinkgravisom: Jesus I dunno if even X would be sane here.
19:20:10 <Shaftonize> And no, you shouldn't root your Kindle, eInk sux for ... everything but reading. For reading it's awesome.
19:20:30 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: I thought a Kindle would be great for IRC but then I realised it'd have to fully redraw every line :(
19:20:47 <colloinkgravisom> It has a roll of e-ink that it just rotates and wipes when it gets to the other side.
19:20:56 <pikhq_> Shaftonize: Yeah, it is totally awesome for reading.
19:21:20 <pikhq_> Also: jeeze I could install Debian on here.
19:22:04 <Shaftonize> pikhq_: http://www.mobileread.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=75336&d=1312936864
19:22:52 <Shaftonize> colloinkgravisom: Only my thumbnails are long; my cat appreciates them.
19:22:53 <pikhq_> colloinkgravisom: Mine doesn't have the free 3G. :(
19:23:06 <zzo38> Some ideas about variant of Magic: the Gathering rules (just meant to be ideal rules and not necessarily related at all to actual cards that need kludgy rules to work):
19:23:21 -!- PiRSquaredAway has changed nick to PiesAreRound.
19:24:30 <zzo38> Remove the state-based effect that causes tokens to cease to exist, and instead replace it with this: Objects can have what is called its "initial state", which refers to what is written on the card. Objects with current state and initial state are "cards". Objects with current state but no initial state are "tokens". Other objects are neither cards nor tokens.
19:25:37 <pikhq_> colloinkgravisom: Fairly trivial; I can get root on here without much effort, so.
19:25:49 <zzo38> When an object is moved from one zone to another (but with a few exceptions), the old object is destroyed, and if it had an initial state, a new object is created from its initial state in the destination zone. Under this rule, the state-based effect causing tokens to cease to exist is not required, and copies of spells also count as tokens, which can even allow Artifact/Creature/Enchantment spells to be copied.
19:25:53 <fizzie> Chroot-debian and OpenOffice on the N900 is the best idea too.
19:26:39 <colloinkgravisom> My dream has always been to be able to somehow run a complete computer off just a router, with internet access.
19:26:44 <zzo38> I also dislike the rule that the state-based effect causing auras that are also creatures to be discarded, and equipments that are also creatures to become unattached.
19:27:22 <fizzie> Mine has 64! That should be enough for everyone?
19:27:31 <fizzie> Quite often they have USB ports (for mass-storage sharing and/or 3G stick backup connection) so at least you can plug all that in.
19:27:56 <zzo38> colloinkgravisom: It should be enough to install Forth, and some networking stuff.
19:28:07 <colloinkgravisom> Of course it's just a matter of hacking up an adapter and writing a driver. :p
19:29:17 <colloinkgravisom> fizzie: Although you can get those mini 8" USB display things.
19:29:22 <zzo38> Another rule of Magic: the Gathering I would have is one that prohibits non-existent objects from dealing damage. If you change a card's power after damage is assigned, the damage won't change; but if the card is moved to another zone (even if it is subsequently moved back into play), the damage is prevented.
19:29:46 <Shaftonize> pikhq_: So, you didn't join our discussion of my BRILLIANT game idea
19:30:03 <fizzie> You can get a "USB/VGA adapter", aka USB-connected display card. (At least one brand is selling that making it look like it's just an adapter cable.)
19:30:09 <Shaftonize> (Where by "BRILLIANT" I of course mean "impossible")
19:30:23 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: Y'know, it'd be easier if you didn't have a fixed history, and procedurally generated everything. The hard part there is quests...
19:30:43 <Shaftonize> colloinkgravisom: I had no desire for a fixed history.
19:30:45 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: But "assign quest structures to relevant people/nations/etc. so that they work out" seems easier than "make history modification work on a fixed world" :P
19:30:52 <quintopia> colloinkgravisom: was it about superturing? cuz i never actually read that convo
19:30:54 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: Yeah, but I mean, just generate a whole world and simulate it.
19:31:12 <zzo38> Another rule I dislike is the rule that says if a Land card has other types too, you do not use the rules for playing a card of that other type. It should be unnecessary because if it has no mana cost, it cannot be played as another type anyways.
19:31:18 <Shaftonize> colloinkgravisom: That's why I wanted to start the game with "you've already fucked up history"
19:31:25 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: You just throw away the future and re-simulate the world.
19:31:25 <quintopia> i didnt know someone was seriously considering making such a game
19:31:47 <Shaftonize> quintopia: I'm not, just poking the idea with a stick.
19:31:58 <fizzie> ISRT someone was looking for an "USB to HDMI cable" for uploading movies to eir media players. That was quite confusing. I think it was supposed to go in-between an USB port on a computer and the HDMI out of the media box.
19:32:09 <Shaftonize> colloinkgravisom: The problem with generating the future is, like I said before, allowing things to propagate to higher-level changes without every change you make just effing up all of the future.
19:32:24 <Shaftonize> Making it propagate to wider changes but also stabilize.
19:32:26 <fizzie> I mean, if you can get movies out of a hole, surely you can stuff some movies in the same way?
19:32:40 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: That's just a case of "having a stable world simulation algorithm"...
19:32:50 <quintopia> fizzie: i tried to get a vga-rca thing once but it sucked and didnt work
19:32:51 <colloinkgravisom> If removing a peasant fucks up your world sim massiely, your sim sucks.
19:33:13 <Shaftonize> colloinkgravisom: But if killing an entire royal family doesn't cause a change that lasts at least a century, it also sucks.
19:33:38 <Shaftonize> colloinkgravisom: So it has to be able to sim at a very high level, then whenever it's demanded, generate further details from the simulation.
19:34:01 <Shaftonize> While making those further details completely consistent with the simulation at large.
19:34:05 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: Just simulate at full detail always, and hand-wave it by making time travel difficult.
19:34:14 <colloinkgravisom> i.e. you have to operate the time machine while it simulates everything :P
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19:34:26 <fizzie> Right, it was Deltaco, and they have a product called "USB 2.0 to DVI/HDMI/VGA adapter". It's an "USB to HDMI cable", just not the right sort.
19:34:48 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: Of course the CPU requirements will suck, but you don't need to do things to the detail of, say, DF.
19:34:50 <Shaftonize> "Full detail" would essentially mean that a few selected people are important at an individual level, the rest are important only at a group level.
19:34:56 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: You can just make up the very fine detail /on the spot/.
19:35:01 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: As in, you never ever store fine detail or anything.
19:35:12 <colloinkgravisom> You just do things at a medium level, and then Make Shit Up when you load the level.
19:35:25 <colloinkgravisom> Since it's fine, it'll change regularly, and so nobody can complain...
19:35:52 <Shaftonize> It's that "make shit up" that's complicated, because the things you do to that made-up shit may have larger consequences, for instance if you take a nuke to the middle ages and destroy France.
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19:36:20 <zzo38> I once made up a Magic: the Gathering card that once it phased out, it remained phased out for the rest of the game; but in the new rules it would phase in normally.
19:36:51 <fizzie> colloinkgravisom: The brand that sells their USB display card thing as an "USB to HDMI adapter".
19:36:59 <colloinkgravisom> <Shaftonize> It's that "make shit up" that's complicated, because the things you do to that made-up shit may have larger consequences, for instance if you take a nuke to the middle ages and destroy France.
19:37:56 <Shaftonize> You go back to France, and run around a kill literally everyone, one by one.
19:38:08 <Shaftonize> You are playing this game like an idiot for some reason.
19:38:35 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: OK, I don't mean that you should ignore the entire world because lol everything is made out of atoms.
19:38:46 <Shaftonize> I guess it could just think of them as numbers at this scale.
19:38:51 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: I mean that when you get into your time machine, you just take a /medium-level/ snapshot of the world state.
19:38:58 <colloinkgravisom> Which would, in this case, include "there's nobody fucking alive".
19:39:05 <colloinkgravisom> And then run a simulation at /that/ level, saving tons and tons of CPU time.
19:39:22 <colloinkgravisom> And then when you load the level, you, uh, do nothing because there's no villages or people to name or w/e :P
19:39:23 <Shaftonize> Right, so my point is just that your transition to and from scales has to be completely consistent. Such that if you drop in, have a coffee, then leave, you won't eff things up.
19:40:35 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: Easy solution: Your time machine always breaks and needs [quest part] to start it again :)
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19:41:04 <Shaftonize> It's supposed to be very open-world. If you want to just adjust the universe to your liking, you can do that, THEN go on quests.
19:41:09 <Sgeo> Why is the DS9 intro music so grating?
19:42:30 <Shaftonize> DS9's opening music is not as grating as Janeway's voice.
19:42:41 <zzo38> Shaftonize: Interesting idea of a game but like you said is probably completely impossible for more than one reason
19:42:59 <Shaftonize> colloinkgravisom: THAT SHOW DOES NOT EXIST.
19:46:40 <Shaftonize> colloinkgravisom: So, whaddya say, time travel game's source code maintained in scape🐐? Sound good?
19:47:43 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: (Do you have that assigned to Compose g o a t or something?)
19:49:00 <Shaftonize> http://news.discovery.com/tech/motorized-shoes-111222.html <-- motorized shoes. The maker recommends riders weigh no more than 180 pounds. Which is ironic because anybody who needs effing MOTORIZED SHOES weighs more than 180 pounds.
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19:49:44 <Ngevd> A problem: it lacks support
19:49:54 <Ngevd> That's the middle line in a haiku
19:50:06 <Ngevd> With Haiku I found
19:50:19 <Ngevd> That's the first and last
19:50:43 <colloinkgravisom> Shaftonize: Dude, who cares about need? I WANT motorised shoes.
19:50:58 <Ngevd> Wait, I forgot something.
19:51:17 <pikhq_> Shaftonize: Hey, man. To be fair to Enterprise, it *could* have been good.
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19:51:32 <pikhq_> If you replaced everything past "let's have a show set when the Federation is forming".
19:52:38 <Shaftonize> Can I take a minute to gawk at the word "gawp"?
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19:56:43 <Shaftonize> Insofar as I don't rightly know [g]awk, I suppose I do too ...
19:58:26 <colloinkgravisom> "Essentially, the Fmap constructor also allows us to define a properly
20:00:57 <colloinkgravisom> "What happens to referential transparency when distinct things are all
20:00:57 <colloinkgravisom> undefined, seq, unsafeCoerce, and many other "primitives" are defined using
20:01:22 <colloinkgravisom> oerjan: he is now making claims based on the dummy GHC/Prim.hs source that exists only to generate Haddock documentation :D
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20:04:25 <oerjan> <Shaftonize> colloinkgravisom: So, whaddya say, time travel game's source code maintained in scape? Sound good? <-- and implemented in feather, of course
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20:08:42 <oerjan> erm, i just cut and pasted
20:08:51 <oerjan> except at the line ends
20:09:42 <oerjan> i cannot see any difference in the logs, they are both perfectly fine empty squares.
20:10:07 <oerjan> and in irc they are both perfectly fine invisible empty spaces.
20:10:45 <oerjan> i guess what i'm trying to say, is i have no idea what you are talking about.
20:12:58 <oerjan> i think i broke colloinkgravisom.
20:13:18 <fizzie> oerjan: The goat is a U+01F410 or something, while yours is just a U+F410.
20:14:06 <fizzie> The ASTRAL PLANES strike again.
20:14:39 <fizzie> ("Sometimes, the terms “astral plane” and “astral characters” are used informally to refer to the planes above the Basic Multilingual Plane (planes 1–16) and their characters.")
20:14:48 -!- PiesAreRound has changed nick to PiRSquared17.
20:15:25 <oerjan> interesting, trying to paste the correct one into irssi gives two periods instead.
20:16:33 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
20:17:21 <oerjan> colloinkgravisom: it would appear irssi is not utf-8 clean, then
20:18:07 <fizzie> There's a Perl scripting thing.
20:18:12 <colloinkgravisom> So it's more likely that they just fucked up the astral planes.
20:18:49 <fizzie> XChat just shows it as a box with the codepoint number in, since I don't have any 🐐-fonts.
20:19:30 <oerjan> i guess it could also be putty's fault
20:19:44 <fizzie> If I paste this 🐐 into irssi here, all I get is a single Unicode missing-character "?"-in-a-blob symbol.
20:19:54 <oerjan> or even something between.
20:21:20 <fizzie> Fortunately: eiväthän ääkköset ole enää ongelma.
20:22:20 <HackEgo> tavistiriä ryöppyäviivempänäni aleni keutulkitseville numaamianne hämääräilyssä rottavalla koboelläsittamme purkautuvallisi hyllyttäneljänne kahlaan puhutkismaimero hyllentavanaan tuotavissa sykliseli edellänsä kirjakavamme varroksellisi hyötävältä mahtajatkemykseva
20:24:30 <fizzie> No, I don't live in "keu-for-the-interpreting".
20:25:00 <colloinkgravisom> "I'm interested in possible ways to supply parameters into my program. It is a physical simulation and I need to input temperature, number of steps and so on.
20:25:00 <colloinkgravisom> However I need these parameters to be pure so I can't use IO in any way. Hence at least part of my program have to be recompiled each time. What is the best method to achieve this?
20:26:44 <fizzie> I don't think I eat a lot of "being-my-rushing-delayedmost". (Okay, that is not grammatic and took a lot of poetic license + map-to-nearest-sensibleing.)
20:27:50 <colloinkgravisom> fizzie: I bet you go to the mahtajatkemykseva for a quick tuotavissa all the time.
20:28:12 <fizzie> "ryöpytä" to cascade, to rush; "ryöppyävä" rushing; "viive" delay, "viiveempi" maybe sort-of more delay-like, "viiveeni" my delay, "viiveenäni" sort-of being my delay, as my delay.
20:28:37 <fizzie> "Tuotavissa" = "can be brought". I can't quite make anything up for "mahtajatkemykseva", sorry.
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20:31:32 <fizzie> It's [yöä] and [uoa] not in the same word.
20:31:36 <fizzie> With [ie] being neutral.
20:31:55 <fizzie> Except if you have a compound word it's enough that each part is vowel-harmonic.
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20:32:21 <colloinkgravisom> It sounds like you need an instruction manual to speak your language.
20:32:42 <fizzie> It just doesn't sound right if it breaks the rules, you don't need a manual for it. :p
20:32:59 <colloinkgravisom> "How's the koboelläsittamme?" "Ooh, er, let me check my Pocket Finnish Ruleset to see if that's a valid word."
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20:33:53 <fizzie> The inflectional suffixes get realized using the matching vowels based on what comes first, so "talo" => "talolla" -lla, "mäki" => "mäellä" -llä.
20:34:22 <fizzie> Uh... I might not want to start explaining which rules turn the base "mäki" into "mäe", though...
20:35:04 <colloinkgravisom> You make even a Hexhamite want to learn your crazy, crazy language.
20:36:15 <colloinkgravisom> fizzie: Seriously though, how many of your young just give up on learning your fucking language?
20:36:28 <colloinkgravisom> Do you give them picture books with footnotes saying "Note the vowel harmony!"
20:36:54 <oerjan> fizzie: what i don't understand is how you can tell that mahtajatkemykseva cannot just split into compound words
20:37:11 <colloinkgravisom> oerjan: Finns are born with a dictionary table in their minds.
20:37:37 <fizzie> If you're learning the "regular" way, you just sort of get it by exposure, I think; foreigners learning as a second language probably do give up, though.
20:38:08 <colloinkgravisom> In the 50s they were big radios, that's why Finns used to be called squareheads.
20:39:04 <pikhq_> The technology, of course, was originally invented by the Chinese, so their moon language could be spoken by more than a handful of mutants.
20:39:53 <fizzie> oerjan: I guess it could be a compound word if there was anything sufficiently word-like (and not just pile-of-suffixes-like) in the back end. I mean, "mahtajapässi" would be a fine compound [mahtaja][pässi], but when it's "mahtajat", as in the plural of "mahtaja", it's not as easy to compound afterwards; you don't inflect in the middle of compounds, after all. The plural of "ovimies" is "ovimiehet", not "ovetmiehet".
20:40:19 <fizzie> (Doorman, doormen; not doorsmen.)
20:40:46 <pikhq_> So, what you're saying is it's like doorsmenationablyesque.
20:40:54 <pikhq_> colloinkgravisom: Win.
20:41:05 <fizzie> That's not a compound word, that's one of your freaky two-word words.
20:41:39 <pikhq_> fizzie: It's a single word that is written with a space.
20:42:01 <colloinkgravisom> "Surgeons general" is correct because they're the surgeons that are general.
20:42:41 <pikhq_> colloinkgravisom: "Surgeon General" in US English is a rank.
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20:43:14 <pikhq_> The rank of the head of the Public Health Service Commissioned Corps.
20:43:49 <pikhq_> Thus far there have been 18 Surgeons General.
20:44:41 <fizzie> One of the classical informal tests of "do I spell this as a compound word or as two separate words" (something that people nowadays seem to have a *lot* of trouble with) in Finnish is to consider "does it make sense if I put some suffixes after the first word". So "koripallo" is a compound word because "korinkin pallo" doesn't make sense, but "paikan päällä" is separate because "paikankin päällä" sounds just fine. (I'm sure there are exceptions;
20:44:41 <fizzie> the Korpela has said this particular rule causes more harm than good, for example.)
20:45:22 <Shaftonize> `addquote <fizzie> [...] "paikankin päällä" sounds just fine
20:45:26 <HackEgo> 780) <fizzie> [...] "paikankin päällä" sounds just fine
20:46:02 <Deewiant> "korinkin pallo" makes perfect sense :-P
20:46:18 <oerjan> Shaftonize: i guess i'm destinated to be oerjan goatfucker from now on.
20:46:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: I guess I was supposed to try it with "korikin pallo", or something. As said, it's a silly rule.
20:47:09 <Shaftonize> You can build a hundred bridges, but if you suck ONE cock!
20:47:11 <Deewiant> "-kin" is the usual, I think. Not sure if it works more or less often though.
20:48:47 <fizzie> Ithinkthatmightbesortofhardtofollowandlookstupidtoo.
20:48:51 <pikhq_> Is Finnish mora-timed or something? "päällä" just seems really strange otherwise.
20:50:10 <fizzie> pikhq_: "Finnish, -- are commonly quoted as examples of syllable-timed languages."
20:50:56 <fizzie> I don't know what's strange about "päällä". Doubling a phoneme basically gives a length increase, and that's that.
20:51:04 <fizzie> "All phonemes except /ʋ/ and /j/ can occur doubled phonemically with the result being a phonetic increase in length. Consonant doubling always occurs at the boundary of a syllable in accordance with the rules of Finnish syllable structure.
20:51:04 <fizzie> Some example sets of words:
20:51:04 <fizzie> tuli = fire, tuuli = wind, tulli = customs"
20:51:17 <pikhq_> fizzie: It seems strange *unless* you've got timing like that.
20:52:20 <Deewiant> Syllable-timed isn't the same thing as mora-timed.
20:53:00 <fizzie> (And doubled plosives are pronounced with a longer stop, in case that wasn't clear from the above.)
20:55:25 <pikhq_> I probably should've said "syllable", though; it's really pretty rare that morae are considered important in a language...
20:56:45 <fizzie> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/Finnish.html has Korpela's short introduction of Finnish for foreigners. It's probably factually more correct than a randomly chosen native speaker.
20:57:00 <fizzie> It's also not very long.
20:57:07 <fizzie> (That's why it's called short.)
20:57:39 <colloinkgravisom> fizzie: Please tell me that Korpela guy is a celebrity in Finland.
20:57:56 <fizzie> He's a... pseudo-celebrity in some circles, I think?
20:59:09 <fizzie> He's sort-of famous for his non-friendly dismissal from his job at our university, for example.
20:59:58 <fizzie> Also of http://reminder.tontut.fi/reminder.jpg
21:00:06 <fizzie> "Et vaan osaa!" = "You just can't!"
21:00:21 <fizzie> (Wasn't this mentioned in Wikipedia at some point? Or at least Uncyclopedia or something?)
21:01:27 <fizzie> As in, "you just don't know how to do it", that would perhaps be more accurate.
21:02:27 * colloinkgravisom suddenly realises he has no idea what he's referencing with that.
21:03:07 <oerjan> colloinkgravisom: some matter of gravity.
21:03:20 <oerjan> which probably itself references something.
21:04:19 <colloinkgravisom> "The rest is mostly explained by my education (pure mathematics and a little physics, philosophy, and statistics) and my employment at Helsinki University of Technology Computing centre from 1974 to 2001. (So what happened in 2001? See the site history.)"
21:04:28 <colloinkgravisom> Ooh, time for the JUICY DETAILS. If it doesn't involve vowel harmony I'm quitting IRC.
21:04:38 -!- Klisz has joined.
21:04:51 <colloinkgravisom> "work effectively terminated by the employer's actions 2001-01-17" THAT TELLS ME NOTHING
21:04:52 <fizzie> It involves character set issues. :p
21:05:35 <oerjan> he was a character too set in his ways
21:05:47 <colloinkgravisom> Now that you mention it, I distinctly recall either you or Deewiant linking to some probably-web-browser encoding settings dialogue in Finnish and saying something with the letters "Korpela" in it nearby.
21:05:47 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:05:58 <fizzie> Well, almost. I'm not sure if the saga is explained anywhere in English. The official reason was "neglecting duties", but he disputes that.
21:06:06 <colloinkgravisom> Did he get fired for configuring his browser's default character set wrongly.
21:06:53 <fizzie> I, uh... tried to translate a Finnish thing with Google. It didn't... go well: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Feverybo.dy.fi%2Fotax_legendat.html
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21:07:31 <colloinkgravisom> http://koti.kapsi.fi/juanttil/yucca/ This seems to translate... marginally better.
21:07:45 <fizzie> Yes, it's more about the dismissal.
21:08:06 <fizzie> The first page is about former-TKK-internal-newsgroups phenomenology.
21:08:16 <colloinkgravisom> "And that's exactly how things stand was: "Jukka Korpela F6suhde Teknillisess ty = = E4 = E4, college p = E4ttyy." Um.
21:09:13 <Shaftonize> "You chef postings removed from the request. "
21:09:17 <colloinkgravisom> viinapää does not mean that pulled that much booze, and is dill
21:09:17 <colloinkgravisom> smartly. Nobody is offering Swedish piss in the glass, no one will pull the
21:09:17 <colloinkgravisom> äksiä on the floor and everything behaves intelligently anyway. Kill is already below
21:09:17 <colloinkgravisom> Otaniemi känniääliömaine horrible, and it's reputation to spread
21:09:43 <colloinkgravisom> Do not you just can not! And part of the multi-else. The most famous was a link to this message http://reminder.ton.tut.fi/, but later also http://tinyurl.com/ely2 - however, these have now stopped working. Today is http://www.ely2.com . When someone does something to the part of him can be a short concise way to say "reminder" or "ely2". The fact that, Jukka K. Korpela, there is no self that behind the image, but it is made by someone e
21:09:43 <colloinkgravisom> lse over. Korpela, however, the picture is quite striking, because he has become famous for the fact that he knows, and knows very wide range of almost everything.
21:10:00 <colloinkgravisom> "the fact that he knows, and knows very wide range of almost everything." ;; so it's all Finns, not just fizzie and Deewiant?
21:10:24 <oerjan> http://www.thegravityposter.com/historyof_01.html
21:10:57 <colloinkgravisom> "So I had to reconstruct my site. Naturally, this was also an opportunity, or a necessity, to consider its organization and content too. Several friendly people had set up copies, or "mirrors", of my site, although they had to be based on incomplete data. Anyway, there was no immediate need to establish a new "home", since most of my material was somehow accessible. There was a lot to think about, and a lot to go through, and I had some
21:10:57 <colloinkgravisom> decisions to make. Given that (under Finnish and EU legislation) I am the copyright owner of my material, HUT having got just the right to use it (which the decision-makers decided to prevent), I had the opportunity to sell it, perhaps as part of making a contract with a new employer."
21:10:58 <oerjan> ah page 2 shows it was indeed referencing something earlier
21:11:05 <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world?
21:11:12 <colloinkgravisom> fizzie: He, er, considered selling his personal website to get a job?
21:11:24 <fizzie> colloinkgravisom: I don't know about that. Let me check that.
21:13:59 <fizzie> Oh, it's one of those English pages. In that case I guess your reading is as good as mine.
21:14:27 * colloinkgravisom just assumed that only the Finns can properly interpret the wise Korpela or something like that.
21:14:48 <fizzie> oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there.
21:14:58 <fizzie> I... guess you are geographically, too.
21:15:09 <colloinkgravisom> `addquote <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? <oerjan> fizzie: +47 <fizzie> oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there. <fizzie> I... guess you are geographically, too.
21:15:12 <HackEgo> 781) <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? <oerjan> fizzie: +47 <fizzie> oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there. <fizzie> I... guess you are geographically, too.
21:15:18 <fizzie> Us +358:ans are sort-of distant, you see.
21:15:39 <colloinkgravisom> `addquote Note that the previous quote is, in fact, correctly spaced.
21:15:43 <HackEgo> 782) Note that the previous quote is, in fact, correctly spaced.
21:16:17 <colloinkgravisom> oerjan: What's your code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world that isn't the country code?
21:16:23 <fizzie> Oh, wait, this phone number already had the country code. The "(0047)" double-zero-not-a-plus notation just confused me.
21:16:24 <colloinkgravisom> That's not your full telephone number, so you have absolutely no reason not to tell us.
21:16:45 <colloinkgravisom> fizzie: What do your (post-country-code) telephone numbers look like in Finland?
21:17:27 <colloinkgravisom> Most things are an 01xx area code and then a bunch of numbers but there's also 020 (which I think is London) and 070 (mobiles) and also 0800 is free-dial stuff but there's also 08000 which... might actually just be 0800 numbers with an 0 after them, I'm not sure.
21:20:05 <fizzie> colloinkgravisom: Our area codes in common use for regular people are: 02,03,05,06,08,09,013,014,015,016,017,018,019 (landlines; there used to be a lot more, they got combined in 1996); 040,041,042,044,0450,0451,0452,0453,0458,046,050 (mobiles; they used to be operator-specific, but nowadays you can move your number on and on, so it's no longer strictly true).
21:20:16 <fizzie> The landline numbers are geographical regions.
21:20:36 <fizzie> And then there is a confusing set of prefixes for companies.
21:20:43 <fizzie> A 010 and a 020 prefix, at least.
21:21:46 <oerjan> norway dropped local area numbers and also the initial zero many years ago; i guess the initial part of landline numbers may still count as an area code of sorts.
21:22:51 <fizzie> 010 and 020 are for I think "same cost no matter where you're calling from" company phone numbers; they were marketed for being cheap for customers ("it's like making a local call no matter where you are") except that they're significantly more expensive than regular landline numbers when calling from a mobile phone, and most people only do the mobile thing nowadays, so...
21:24:03 <fizzie> colloinkgravisom: We have some five-digit area codes for special cases. E.g. 04542, 04543 and 04544 are owned by Nokia. (The corporation, not the town.)
21:24:17 <colloinkgravisom> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Number_Change ;; the big places got their prefixes all en-flattened.
21:24:34 <oerjan> most numbers are 8 digits, although there are shorter ones.
21:24:53 <colloinkgravisom> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballymoney ;; the best town name.
21:24:59 <fizzie> No clue, they're just on this list of operator prefixes.
21:25:05 <fizzie> Maybe they just have so many phones.
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21:25:34 <fizzie> The corporate phone I got from Nokia for my one summer there had a regular 050 mobile number, though.
21:25:45 <Gregor> I wonder how much they pay the voice actors for The Sims {1,2,3}.
21:26:15 <colloinkgravisom> Gregor: They don't; they're just shaftonised after the recording.
21:26:40 <fizzie> The old (landline) area codes started with 9; there was 90 for Helsinki, and every other place had three-digit numbers.
21:27:08 <fizzie> But there were something like 50 of them, as opposed to the current 13.
21:27:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:28:23 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 34 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:28:53 <fizzie> colloinkgravisom: 112, but 911 also works. (Also it used to be 000 up until 1992, and it might still work for all I know.)
21:29:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I hope you have the 24 lost to lambdabot's thread timeout logged.
21:29:43 <colloinkgravisom> fizzie: It's 999 here. We're not smart enough to remember more than one digit.
21:30:14 <fizzie> colloinkgravisom: It's called "Neiti Aika", i.e. "Miss Time".
21:30:23 <fizzie> Where "Miss" is the prefix for an unmarried lady.
21:30:53 <colloinkgravisom> "In Finland the speaking clock service is known as Neiti Aika in Finnish or Fröken Tid in Swedish, both of which literally translate as 'Miss Time'."
21:31:29 <fizzie> 352310 calls in 1938; 1300 calls in 2006.
21:31:35 <fizzie> Perhaps in the meantime people have bought: CLOCKS.
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21:34:33 <colloinkgravisom> The way I recorded it was in jerks as it were. I said: "At the Third Stroke" (that does for all the times), and then I counted from One, Two, Three, Four, for the hours, we even went as far as twenty-four, in case the twenty-four hour clock should need to be used, and then I said "...and ten seconds, and twenty seconds, and thirty, forty, fifty seconds", and "o'clock" and "precisely". The famous "precisely". So what you hear is "At the T
21:34:33 <colloinkgravisom> hird Stroke it will be one, twenty-one and forty seconds".[11]
21:35:44 <Deewiant> In some locales they prefer "24:xx" to "00:xx", and given that they didn't record "Zero", that's probably what they would've gone with.
21:37:47 <Deewiant> I've also seen instances of using "24:00" but "00:01".
21:38:49 <oerjan> didn't someone say japanese tv schedules used 25: and 26:
21:40:21 <pikhq_> I don't recall seeing someone say that here, but that's correct.
21:41:42 <pikhq_> I'm not entirely sure where it comes from.
21:42:06 <ais523> Deewiant: I've seen someone use both 24:00 and 00:00 in the same sentence before
21:42:25 <ais523> because the times were matched to days
21:42:36 <fizzie> oerjan: Also it seems that your zip/postal codes are just four digits. Is that true and/or a problem with web forms?
21:43:12 <pikhq_> I suppose it makes sense, though? Use "day" to map to a waking period.
21:43:13 <ais523> fizzie: UK postcodes are one or two letters, one or two digits, (by convention a space), one digit, two letters
21:43:28 <fizzie> ais523: Oh, right, yours were weird, too.
21:43:40 <ais523> not really; they're much more specific than most country's postcodes
21:43:43 <pikhq_> (obviously, 25:00 is going to be for late-night programming, such as essentially all anime)
21:43:50 <ais523> postcode + house number is enough for an address in the UK
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21:43:59 <ais523> one postcode maps to a range of 10 houses or so
21:44:12 <fizzie> ais523: We stayed in a hotel with postcode W1T 5AY, that was... witty...
21:44:14 <ais523> also, the first bit of the postcode is put on road name signs
21:44:21 <oerjan> fizzie: yes, just four digits
21:44:35 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, that's not a well-formed postcode
21:44:48 <fizzie> I may have miscopied it, let me check.
21:44:51 <ais523> the T is invalid there, it should be missing or a digit
21:45:19 <fizzie> ais523: http://www.radissonedwardian.com/london-hotel-gb-w1t-5ay/gbgrafto "130 Tottenham Court Road, London W1T 5AY".
21:45:21 <pikhq_> ais523: Hmm. That's about as specific as the ZIP+4 in the US.
21:45:22 <fizzie> ais523: That's what they say.
21:45:33 <ais523> it could be that W1 ran out of room
21:45:39 <ais523> it's a pretty famous postcode area
21:45:53 <ais523> so it wouldn't surprise me if it had to be extended with letters in order to fit in more houses than usual
21:46:04 <colloinkgravisom> <ais523> postcode + house number is enough for an address in the UK ;; btw, why DO we have to write longer addresses than that?
21:46:27 <ais523> colloinkgravisom: in case there are typos
21:46:27 <pikhq_> (ZIP+4 refers to a 9-digit post code, that the post office would really prefer you use; most people, though, only use a 5 digit code.)
21:46:29 <colloinkgravisom> I was always told that IT MAKES IT EASIER FOR THE DELIVERERS but that sounds like bullshit.
21:46:38 <ais523> you don't; if you write house number + postcode, it will get delivered
21:46:45 <colloinkgravisom> (What's the gender-neutral form of postman, anyway? "Postperson" is weird.)
21:46:48 <ais523> but if they misread it at all, it'll go to completely the wrong place
21:46:57 <ais523> colloinkgravisom: informally "postie"; I'm not sure if there's a formal term
21:47:17 <ais523> I don't think I ever have seen a female postman, anyway
21:47:23 <ais523> so I suspect it's still a male-dominated job
21:47:29 <fizzie> Quite a little is enough for "an address" in Finland, but the post office doesn't exactly appreciate. The "student guild" room of the CS students has an impressive array of postcards sent with really obscure addresses. (Though maybe they're just gotten wise and carry all the weirdly-addressed mail there?)
21:47:31 <ais523> that said, you tend not to have very many distinct postmen
21:47:58 <pikhq_> If you're a dick, you could probably get away with name & ZIP here.
21:48:30 <ais523> wow that sounds so excessively formal
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21:55:27 <oerjan> in soviet russia, compost.
21:58:55 <Phantom_Hoover> <colloinkgravisom> "Postperson" is seeming rather less awkward by the second.
22:01:46 <oerjan> colloinkgravisom: aka posthumus. wait, that's prehumus. whoops.
22:02:25 <kallisti> 09:47 < colloinkgravisom> kallisti: Er, you do realise that north=up is as arbitrary as north=down?
22:03:07 <kallisti> colloinkgravisom: yes, but north and south as up or down are not arbitrarily chosen, and so it's still useful to have a reference direction for one of them.
22:04:08 <colloinkgravisom> I don't see how that invalidates what you quoted (not that I agree with what it's trying to express, necessarily); it's perfectly plausible to say that north was chosen as up because the pioneering mapmakers were from those areas, or something. (I don't know what the actual facts are in this situation, though.)
22:04:23 <colloinkgravisom> Just saying that "ha ha, they're saying that up is arbitrary!" doesn't really mean anything.
22:04:44 <oerjan> incidentally some medieval maps had east up iirc
22:06:30 <oerjan> NihilistDandy: er, not really?
22:06:51 <NihilistDandy> "possibly ult. from PIE *ner- "left," also "below," as north is to the left when one faces the rising sun"
22:07:41 <kallisti> colloinkgravisom: I just got the impression that he was claiming north/south were /entirely/ culturally fabricated and not based on useful non-cultural information like, say, the earth's axis of rotation.
22:08:16 <oerjan> i say that's a dubious connection, that's a gap of thousands of years between the etymology and the maps
22:08:32 <colloinkgravisom> Well, okay, but "He attributed the north-up-superior/south-down-inferior presentation of most other world maps to cultural bias." very clearly says "up"/"down".
22:09:23 <NihilistDandy> If it makes you feel any better, the etymology of west suggests "down"
22:09:41 <colloinkgravisom> Phantom_Hoover: <oerjan> incidentally some medieval maps had east up iirc
22:10:32 <kallisti> I guess the Dymaxion map actually makes little circles around the geographic poles so.. that's good. I suppose I inferred too much.
22:11:39 <colloinkgravisom> 04:58:55: <kallisti_> "He attributed the north-up-superior/south-down-inferior presentation of most other world maps to cultural bias."
22:12:22 <Phantom_Hoover> (North/south = up/down is kind of natural anyway, because we distinguish the vertical from other directions and align the axis of the map that way, and there's far more 'interesting' land in the northern hemisphere, so putting it at the top kind of makes sense too.)
22:12:33 -!- PiRSquared17 has left ("Bye").
22:12:51 <kallisti> colloinkgravisom: yeah Gall-Peters still uses north as up.
22:13:03 <colloinkgravisom> Phantom_Hoover: How is that not literally admitting it's a cultural bias? :p
22:13:22 <monqy> the interesting land should fall to the bottom
22:13:24 <colloinkgravisom> I mean, OK, the Northern hemisphere is more detailed, but that's a kind of ridiculous justification.
22:13:28 <monqy> and the boring land should float to the top
22:13:34 <monqy> because that's how it works right
22:13:59 <kallisti> colloinkgravisom: the important shit should be on top dude. Like the USA, and Great Britain!
22:14:21 <colloinkgravisom> The Dymaxion projection would be better if it just unfolded the sphere directly.
22:14:28 <Phantom_Hoover> kallisti, and everywhere except for some of South America and some of Africa.
22:14:43 <kallisti> nah too many non-white people.
22:14:56 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a reason most people think the equator is a long way to the north of where it actually is.
22:15:33 <colloinkgravisom> oerjan: I think people assume the Equator is the line dividing the Americas.
22:15:35 <NihilistDandy> I vote that we use a series of tractor beams to arrange the new rotation of the Earth perpendicular to the current culturally biased model~
22:15:38 <kallisti> because they wouldn't expect so much interesting shit in the same place.
22:15:56 <kallisti> they'd expect it eventually distributed.
22:16:05 <kallisti> the earth should be evenly interesting.
22:16:23 <Phantom_Hoover> <colloinkgravisom> oerjan: I think people assume the Equator is the line dividing the Americas.
22:16:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Or they just go for the line which roughly bisects the landmass less Antarctica.
22:17:28 <colloinkgravisom> Anyway, "everywhere except for some of South America and Africa" is obviously unfair.
22:18:22 <kallisti> ITT: the secret culture bias towards north REVEALED.
22:18:25 <Phantom_Hoover> "Fuller argued that in the universe there is no "up" and "down", or "north" and "south":"
22:18:35 <kallisti> and here I thought it was a ridiculous notion.
22:18:48 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: The term is "eccentric".
22:18:59 <zzo38> There is. Up and down correspond to gravity. North and south celestial poles correspond to the Earth.
22:19:08 <NihilistDandy> Unfair to whom? I don't think I know of many cultures complaining that they're second-class because of their north-south distinction. I think what pisses them off is all the oppression and genocide.~
22:19:26 <zzo38> Do you know another idea of computer game? One of my other idea is, game based on story of events in D&D game I have been playing in.
22:19:40 <NihilistDandy> "I'm put out by the social implications of my area's arbitrary placement in the world model." #firstworldproblems
22:19:53 <kallisti> the oppression is just a natural result of their southerliness
22:20:30 <pikhq_> He documented his life rather extensively.
22:20:36 <colloinkgravisom> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway I don't think that quote is necessarily nonsense with a charitable interpretation.
22:20:39 <kallisti> notice that he put AMERICA AT THE CENTER OF THE MAP
22:20:39 <pikhq_> Writing in his diary every 15 minutes from 1920 to 1983.
22:20:57 <colloinkgravisom> Phantom_Hoover: He's just saying there's no correct orientation of space.
22:20:57 <Phantom_Hoover> 'North' is unquestionably a well-defined, useful concept.
22:21:15 <Phantom_Hoover> And no, but there's definitely a privileged orientation of the surface of the globe.
22:21:20 * kallisti is going to make a map that can be construed to have absolutely no cultural bias
22:21:24 <pikhq_> Basically, his life is the best documented we'll have until we start having constantly recording video cameras on everyone.
22:21:29 <kallisti> the landmasses of the world are scattered out on the perimeter
22:21:35 <pikhq_> kallisti: Centered around Antarctica?
22:21:57 <Phantom_Hoover> 'The universe has no privileged directions, therefore any subset of the universe has no privileged directions!'
22:21:57 <pikhq_> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Dymaxion_map_ocean2.png So, the oceanic Dymaxion?
22:22:04 <colloinkgravisom> Wait water doesn't actually spiral the wrong way out the sink in the southern hemisphere???
22:22:47 <zzo38> OK, centered around Antarctica might be OK, try that
22:23:20 <oerjan> colloinkgravisom: also bumblebees can fly
22:23:25 <kallisti> colloinkgravisom: do their toilets flush in the opposite direction?
22:23:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course, over here our toilets don't have a direction when they flush.
22:24:04 <NihilistDandy> colloinkgravisom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumble_bee#Flight
22:24:12 <colloinkgravisom> Phantom_Hoover: Things in the other hemisphere still look upside down though right?
22:24:14 <oerjan> colloinkgravisom: it has been proved by science that bumblebees cannot possibly fly, duh.
22:24:28 * colloinkgravisom begins penning his autobiography, "Everything I Know About Spheres I Learned From Ana Ng"
22:24:57 <pikhq_> oerjan: It's a song by They Might Be Giants.
22:25:13 <pikhq_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEjutUbgpH8
22:25:55 <oerjan> <kallisti> colloinkgravisom: do their toilets flush in the opposite direction? <-- yes, which is good since their toilets are upside down
22:32:55 <NihilistDandy> Do you know how many species of bumblebee there are?
22:33:56 <NihilistDandy> http://www.nhm.ac.uk/research-curation/research/projects/bombus/subgenericlist.html
22:33:57 <colloinkgravisom> "On the occasion of a leap second, such as at 23:59:60 on December 31, 2005, there is a one second pause before the beeps, thus keeping the speaking clock in sync with Coordinated Universal Time."
22:35:31 <NihilistDandy> The checklist is apparently drawn from an unpublished catalogue of 2800 names
22:37:13 <pikhq_> colloinkgravisom: Better than UNIX time.
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22:38:28 <kallisti> hmmm, I wonder how SBCL gets such fast speeds from Lisp code.
22:39:14 <kallisti> colloinkgravisom: well, that's a bit more obvious than Lisp.
22:39:35 <pikhq_> GCC does some really insane shit to C.
22:39:39 <kallisti> Lisp is dynamically typed, for one.
22:40:41 <NihilistDandy> It probably lies a lot. Spacetime Bending Common Lisp
22:41:12 <colloinkgravisom> Lisp compilers rely on these in part to produce efficient code.
22:41:44 <kallisti> I was wondering why SBCL was faster than Haskell in the benchmark game; all the code probably uses static annotations.
22:42:05 <kallisti> colloinkgravisom: that another possibility I considered.
22:42:08 <Phantom_Hoover> There's an example in Practical Common Lisp of the difference in the assembly of a function with and without type declarations.
22:43:36 <colloinkgravisom> (loop with iterations of-type fixnum = (ash 1 (+ max-depth min-depth (- d)))
22:44:22 <colloinkgravisom> kallisti: The Lisp programs are more readable than the Haskell ones. :p
22:44:30 <Phantom_Hoover> ; 35: 4C8D1C25E0010020 LEA R11, [#x200001E0] ; GENERIC-+
22:44:46 <colloinkgravisom> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/program.php?test=pidigits&lang=ghc&id=4 ;; wow, not a single pointer manipulation!
22:45:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I suspect that x86 insanity makes that faster than an explicit call.
22:45:19 <colloinkgravisom> Phantom_Hoover: I'm currently trying to comprehend the information that you've actually read, comprehended, and been interested in the various assembly outputs of a program under different amounts of optimisation.
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22:46:00 <kallisti> colloinkgravisom: the Haskell you linked isn't too unreadable.
22:46:15 <Phantom_Hoover> colloinkgravisom, I'm sorry, you said a lot of words just there but they didn't go into my brain.
22:47:01 <kallisti> colloinkgravisom: NihilistDandy noted that quotRem appears to faster than divMod on x86
22:47:04 <kallisti> perhaps they should have tried that.
22:47:19 <colloinkgravisom> Of course it's faster, quotRem is a single machine instruction. Or, maybe two.
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22:47:35 <colloinkgravisom> So replacing one with the other will hardly help if you care about the behaviour on negative numebrs.
22:47:41 <kallisti> colloinkgravisom: ah yes, if negatives are important then yes.
22:48:32 <colloinkgravisom> NihilistDandy: If they did the same thing, they wouldn't have two names :)
22:48:42 <colloinkgravisom> <colloinkgravisom> NihilistDandy: If they did the same thing, they wouldn't have two names :)
22:49:38 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `b' in the constraints:
22:50:40 <Phantom_Hoover> fmap does things map does not; hence, it does different things to map.
22:50:41 <kallisti> colloinkgravisom: but fmap has more POTENTIAL
22:50:55 <Phantom_Hoover> We're talking about the things they do, not propositional equality.
22:51:10 <colloinkgravisom> Phantom_Hoover: Shut up English "plays Cave Story on easy" pansy.
22:51:38 <Phantom_Hoover> colloinkgravisom, excuse me I showed with LOGIC that easy mode = Scottish mode on account of making everyone else English.
22:52:47 <colloinkgravisom> Deewiant: He even fixed the sprite back to being red (Cave Story+'s easy mode Quote is yellow apparently???) to hide his shame.
22:54:26 <kallisti> NihilistDandy: Sometimes I just like to reference things to see if anyone knows wtf I'm talking about.
22:55:05 <kallisti> normally I would then proceed to have some kind of conversation but I kind of need to eat food before I die.
22:55:25 <colloinkgravisom> Squarepusher??? Is that an esolang like the BYTEPUSHER the kids are drinking these days????????
22:55:52 <kallisti> no squarepusher is a bit more retro these days.
22:56:09 <colloinkgravisom> I thought I put enough question marks in to avoid being taken seriously ffs.
22:56:49 <kallisti> colloinkgravisom: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxBvMMPd4lg SO RETRO
23:01:19 <kallisti> colloinkgravisom: I wasn't suggesting you weren't? it was obvious that you knew. YOUR HIPSTER CRED HAS NOT BEEN DISCREDITED.
23:02:25 <kallisti> let us all be friendship hipsters together. <3
23:03:09 <NihilistDandy> We use a really obscure social networking utility. You've probably never heard of it
23:03:32 <colloinkgravisom> Augh I just used that snowclone in /msg in the hopes that it had been beaten to death enough for my use of it to be obviously joking.
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23:04:36 * kallisti goes by the name Lucida. Lucida Console.
23:06:00 <colloinkgravisom> Lucida Console would be a really good cyberpunk protagonist name.
23:07:23 <kallisti> colloinkgravisom: we you like to co-author a cyberpunk novella in which every character is the name of a typeface?
23:07:34 * Sgeo missed the Humble Bundle by minutes
23:07:44 <kallisti> oh there's like a time limit on that shit?
23:08:54 <zzo38> How can the radio explode whenever it is turned on, except when the television is also turned on?
23:09:05 <Phantom_Hoover> The only two worth a look were Cave Story+ and GSB; the former isn't really worth it given that the original's free, and the latter isn't as good as it sounds.
23:09:34 <kallisti> says the guy who plays it on easy..
23:10:18 <zzo38> kallisti: O, in the Vancouver Theatre Sports that is what they did, the character are named after typefaces, except for the main character, and the people who have not been given names for the story at all.
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23:13:24 <NihilistDandy> SMB had a practically unsecured database for a backend
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23:15:48 <Gregor> NihilistDandy knows. He shaftinized it.
23:17:19 <zzo38> Sometimes you change your name? elliott still did not put it back how it was before?
23:18:30 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: If so, why did you use a new account?
23:20:24 <Phantom_Hoover> (Mathematics with Spanish was an actual choice offered by Warwick.
23:20:43 <zzo38> Some class of chess variants are named after typefaces, such as Schoolbook Chess and Univers Chess. I can suggest to make Computer Modern chess it has many parameter you have to decide before you play the game, each game they have a few different strategy and so on, too.
23:21:56 <NihilistDandy> My brother is attempting to double major in math and playwriting.
23:22:27 <NihilistDandy> Where I'm just going the more respectable route of plain old math. Possible double major in CS.
23:22:53 <zzo38> Can you major in writing plays about mathematics?
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23:25:35 <Gregor> I'll bet if #esoteric banded together, we could make the time-travel game, and it would kick arse!
23:25:40 <Gregor> Chances of this happening: Zero!
23:28:06 <fizzie> I'll bet if #esoteric banded together, we could make an amazing amount of bickering.
23:28:15 <zzo38> If you are actually andreou then prove it!
23:28:51 <zzo38> I'll bet if #esoteric banded together, ... that is difficult.
23:28:58 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, I would, but there are too many integrals involved.
23:30:17 <kallisti> fizzie: what? we would never bicker
23:30:30 <kallisti> the fact that you would even make that grand assumption angers me greatly.
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23:55:04 <kallisti> I'd like to see something like the computer benchmark game except with restrictions on submissions to make them as "typical" as possible.
23:55:24 <colloinkgravisom> that would be doomed to even more subjectivity than the current one suffers from
23:56:03 <kallisti> well, I think it would more closely resemble the efficiency of well-written programs "in the wild"
23:56:22 <kallisti> that aren't micro-optimized to hell.
23:56:37 <kallisti> choosing the restrictions is difficult.
23:56:46 <colloinkgravisom> f.e. he tends to reject programs that use too different algorithms, IIRC.
23:57:01 <colloinkgravisom> Which is very subjective; some solutions use parallelism and some don't and that's accepted.
23:57:37 * colloinkgravisom has grown to instinctively dislike the guy behind the benchmarks game because he tends to be a jerk on the internet. :p
23:58:10 <colloinkgravisom> (Admittedly, I probably wouldn't notice normal-sounding comments as much.)
23:58:52 <kallisti> colloinkgravisom: accepting parallelism makes sense because it allows you to compare the quad-core vs. single core case
23:59:05 <kallisti> and see how well a language takes advantage parallelism