00:00:05 Mao Ze Cat may be the best of all possible cat names. 00:01:42 -!- Klisz has quit (Quit: You are now graced with my absence.). 00:01:47 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:02:54 The Main Page isn't semi-protected... is that for a reason? 00:03:27 Nobody vandalises it, and it's only recently received incredibly mild spam thanks to the recent huge spam wave. 00:03:31 Is there any reason to semi-protect it? 00:04:47 -!- Klisz has joined. 00:12:28 * itidus21 . o O ( characters which are rotations of each other: asymmetrical: qb pd symmetrical: () [] {} <> ) 00:13:24 wow this is rare, it's early night and i actually feel tired 00:15:49 i suppose something can also be said of characters which are made up out of other characters: :;=" ,._' 00:17:01 itidus21: un are rotations of each other 00:17:05 itidus21: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html#Bracketing_Characters 00:17:12 ais523: nice :D 00:17:41 kallisti: oh right, Perl 6 actually uses «» 00:17:57 but you can type them as << >>, which is useful if you don't have a « or » key on your keyboard 00:18:02 (I do; altgr-z/altgr-x) 00:21:38 this could be useful in something like nintendo entertainment system when you want to minimize the overhead of each character 00:23:30 It's the rather inconvenient Option-Shift-\ and Option-Shift-| on OS X :/ 00:23:53 itidus21: typewriters used not to have 0 or 1 keys 00:23:58 you just typed O or I instead 00:25:54 wow these bracketing rules are complex. 00:27:09 NihilistDandy: you can make your own mapping for things like that, or use an operating system with compose key support 00:27:41 I know. I'm just talking defaults. If I were planning to use them, I'd like just remap the keys 00:27:43 *likely 00:30:04 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:33:43 hmm, I think I'll go to bed at 1 am 00:34:22 i woke up at something like 1 00:34:45 What about w and m? 00:43:07 PiRSquared17: those aren't rotations in the vast majority of fonts 00:44:05 oh well, my Firefox just upgraded from 3.5 to 9 00:44:11 that was a bit of a shock 00:44:25 (I did let the update manager do that, and it was in -proposed not -security, but still, it's quite the jump) 00:44:50 -!- DCliche has joined. 00:45:34 hmm, where's the setting to put the tabs back beneath the URL bar? the current location is crazy, because it's not even at the top of the screen 00:45:47 so it's just bad in terms of Fitts' Law 00:46:25 also, the new colour scheme for the tabs (based on window title not dialog background) is ugly 00:46:48 chrome has tabs right at the top of the screen when maximised. i like that 00:47:01 ah, found it, View | Tabs on Top 00:47:05 elliott: yep, that makes /sense/ 00:47:10 whereas Firefox has the menu bar above them 00:47:28 also, the top gnome-panel thing 00:47:43 tabs on top make sense if I fullscreen Firefox, but I don't do that 00:48:08 also, ugh at /having/ a status bar (for addons), but /not putting information that should be on the status bar there/ 00:48:14 -!- Klisz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:48:14 that's, umm, wtf? 00:48:35 ais523: /me likes his panels at the bottom for the same reason :p 00:49:51 elliott: well, I have a panel at top and a panel at bottom 00:50:07 and at least the bottom one, I use a /lot/, so it makes sense that it gets the bottom screen edge 00:50:18 also, lock screen badly needs a corner, but I could put it in a bottom corner not top corner, I guess 00:51:21 ais523: why a corner? it needs a keyboard shortcut 00:51:35 really? mouse-based lock I use more often 00:51:44 it's a single action that you want to be readily-accessible; pointing has no use there 00:51:46 and in most of the circumstances where I'd want to quickly lock the screen, I have a hand on the mouse 00:52:08 well, yes; obviously if your workflow is biased to one input device, then you're biased to solutions that use it, even if they're suboptimal 00:52:39 elliott: well, sometimes what I do is keyboard-driven, sometimes it's mouse-driven 00:52:49 but in the circumstances when I normally want to lock the screen, I'm using the mouse at the time 00:53:18 (fwiw, the only way to shut down the system, barring killing X and shutting down from the login screen or doing sudo shutdown, etc, by hand, is the physical power button; I realised I didn't need a shutdown widget because I had that instead) 00:54:35 * elliott is the kind of person who just wants a way to say "bye" and it does the equivalent of bring up a user-switching dialogue 00:54:49 hmm, so how do I get Firefox to not delete the http from the start of the line? 00:54:56 turning off the display is handled by idle-out time, suspending and hibernating too 00:55:13 for a laptop, you don't even need that on a single-user machine, it just has to react to closing the lid 00:55:17 the inconsistency annoys me slightly; also, there's enough space on that line as it is, so removing the http isn't going to hurt anything 00:55:39 ais523: why don't you do what anyone else would have to do to answer your question, and google it? 00:55:53 elliott: that's what I did do 00:55:57 it's information which is (a) trivial to search for, (b) trivial to verify the accuracy of, and (c) will be a common enough wish to be readily accessible 00:55:59 I was just wondering if someone knew the answer offhand 00:56:07 and it's not trivial to search for, it took me two tries 00:56:18 maybe you should practice more 00:56:30 http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=show+http+firefox+7 00:56:42 admittedly, "7" is cheating because it came up int he suggestions 00:56:47 http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=restore+http+prefix+firefox 00:56:57 http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=show+http+firefox 00:57:09 I eventually found it with "firefox http address bar" 00:57:16 http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=don't+hide+http+firefox (fifth result) 00:58:10 https://www.google.com/search?client=browser-rockmelt&channel=omnibox&gcx=c&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=http+firefox 00:58:18 NihilistDandy: Rockmelt? 00:58:20 Are you fucking serious? 00:58:22 Fifth result again 00:58:26 hmm, seems that the status bar thing needs an addon to fix 00:58:30 I like to make you cry, elliott 00:58:35 NihilistDandy: ROCKMELT? 00:58:42 I don't actually use it. :P 00:59:13 Now, do I have it on my computer? Yes. 00:59:20 Did I use it for that search? Yes. 00:59:32 I don't know anything about rockmelt is it any good 00:59:56 Hahaha 01:00:07 For a very bizarre interpretation of good, yes 01:00:09 with a stupid name 01:00:50 I'm a safari guy, myself 01:00:53 -!- DCliche has quit (Quit: You are now graced with my absence.). 01:01:23 The Chrome UI doesn't sit well with me, and Firefox keeps pretending it has major updates 01:04:08 anyone who can use safari for more than a day isn't human 01:05:55 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:06:36 I am not human, then 01:06:42 indeed 01:06:50 ais523: tell me to go to bed pls, it's (a) 1 am and (b) i'm tired 01:06:57 and i even slept yesterday 01:07:28 I've used Chrome and FF extensively, and I just don't see much to draw me into them. 01:07:31 elliott: you know? sleeping might actually be a good idea for once 01:07:39 Open source is fun, I guess, but I could give a shit about browser dev 01:07:41 all browsers are awful :'( 01:08:14 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:08:27 Firefox wins for me just because of superior customizability; all browsers suck, so pick the one that you at least have a fighting chance of making suck less 01:08:44 fwiw, Opera's the only browser that's managed to offend me enough to actually uninstall it 01:08:50 ^^ 01:08:50 im still waiting for @ to solve all of my problems ever 01:08:53 Same 01:09:11 (I have IE6 installed atm but not Opera; that said, I don't use IE6 for anything but compatibility testing, because it's IE6, and I do it with my network connection turned off) 01:09:18 Christ, anyone who can use Opera for more than a day is definitely not human 01:10:27 * elliott finds that you can't actually make firefox not suck 01:10:39 unless there's a Don't Bring My System To A Crushing Halt When I Have >200 Tabs extension 01:10:53 There is not 01:10:58 :( 01:11:13 at least with chrome i rarely actually think "I'm using chrome" because it never actually pops up any annoying dialogues or UI elements to remind me I'm using chrome 01:11:17 and it's fast 01:11:18 so yeah 01:11:25 also its tab bar is nicer than firefox's 01:11:50 its interesting that people rarely have 50 apps open at one time, but easily manage to get 50 browser tabs open at one time 01:11:58 I prefer my tabs under my nav bar 01:12:08 itidus21: That's a memory issue 01:12:21 elliott, even on Chrome, my system slows down with too many tabs 01:12:38 ais523, how did Opera offend you? 01:12:46 And yet, strangely, I have not yet managed to hit the upper limit of tabs in Safari 01:13:01 Sgeo: gah, don't make me remember 01:13:02 -!- marcomarco100 has joined. 01:13:03 Occasionally I'll come back days later and find tabs I still haven't made it to :D 01:13:13 Hi 01:13:18 the notification tray icon with the Opera logo was a pretty big offender, though, and that wasn't the only problem 01:13:20 hi 01:13:22 `? welcome 01:13:23 my biggest problem with crhome is the stupid noneditable autocompletion on the address bar thingy 01:13:24 Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 01:13:45 Sgeo: your system is beyond terrible isn't it 01:13:53 monqy: *nod* 01:13:58 `welcome marcomarco100 01:13:59 For some reason, Reddit loads slowly in Chrome, freezing other Reddit tabs 01:14:00 ais523 failed to do it properly! 01:14:00 marcomarco100: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 01:14:01 -!- marcomarco100 has left. 01:14:03 sometimes it starts autocompleting things incorrectly and i can't fix it and ugh what i really want is just to be able to configure it :( 01:14:08 elliott: I /always/ do it as `? welcome 01:14:11 also, you scared him away 01:14:15 so I can have like 01:14:18 or her, I guess 01:14:18 kjeyboard-bookmarks 01:14:24 although it's an explicitly male nick 01:14:40 I find that if I load a few Chrome tabs at once, they all freeze up until the last one finishes loading 01:14:42 monqy: hint: if you wait a second then it usually works, or if you hit the down arrow after a second there's usually an unmodified alternative 01:14:42 It is not amusing 01:14:45 i only rarely run into that though 01:14:53 NihilistDandy: I diagnose the problem as OS X 01:14:56 And Flash opening in the background is a pain in the ass 01:15:05 NihilistDandy, block the plugin 01:15:11 You can selectively enable it as needed 01:15:12 i use flashblock with firefox 01:15:14 elliott: but then I have to wait/pay attention 01:15:17 I did. 01:15:27 I just would rather it not load them till I get to the page 01:15:29 whereas I prefer doing things quickly while looking in the other direction 01:15:37 One way is to simply disable (or uninstall) Flash. 01:15:37 zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 01:15:44 i use flashblock with firefox 01:16:00 its really the rolls royce of dealing with flash i think 01:16:14 Is it possible to tell Mozilla to load the entire HTML document first before loading any images, CSS, or anything else? 01:16:16 I don't even know how to evaluate that statement 01:16:37 evaluate? fancy 01:16:48 ais523: hi, kickban me so i go to bed, thank you 01:16:52 flashblock replaces a flash element with a simple element that if clicked on will load the flash element 01:16:58 you can undo it after an hour or so 01:16:58 elliott: I don't think ops are meant to be used for that 01:17:02 you could try uninstalling your IRC client 01:17:03 Who is the message? 01:17:05 I'm aware of how Flash blockers work, itidus21 01:17:09 zzo38: ? 01:17:12 and then cutting your Internet access wires so you can't reinstall it 01:17:12 NihilistDandy: if you say so 01:17:14 ais523: but this is the first time i've been tired in months! 01:17:18 elliott: go to bed then! 01:17:20 ?messages 01:17:20 elliott said 4h 38m 38s ago: Here's something justifying (>>=) as something more than just a convenient abbreviation for (\f -> join . fmap f): it's the type of variable substitution. http://blog. 01:17:20 sigfpe.com/2006/11/variable-substitution-gives.html -- this is the tree grafting I mentioned. 01:17:23 ais523: bed is hard! 01:17:24 one of my uses of flash blockers is to stop video autoplay 01:17:27 but then html5 video and 01:17:29 cries softly 01:17:30 bed is difficult. why bed when irc. 01:17:40 elliott: do you really like reading conversations /this/ boring? 01:17:46 Hay you ! Stop putting line breaks in the wrong place like that please 01:18:06 ais523: glowing changing screens are more interesting than blackness! 01:18:06 NihilistDandy: ok i know what you mean, its like the browser doesn't want you determining which elements to display 01:18:07 me? 01:18:22 monqy: lambdabot i think 01:18:22 elliott: why not just turn your computer off? 01:18:29 oh 01:18:30 ais523: it's got IRC on it! 01:18:31 it's one button, or possibly two if you have a confirmation 01:18:33 just go press it 01:18:34 right now 01:18:38 no, i have to hold it down for that to work 01:18:47 and i'd realise i was getting rid of irc in the middle of it 01:18:55 pressing the power button doesn't start a shutdown sequence? 01:18:55 I could start linking to Station V3 and talking about using PSOX to improve it. 01:18:57 try m-Q 01:18:59 also i might lose data because of fsck things 01:19:01 itidus21: In Safari, if I open a tab with a Flash element, it does not load until I give the tab focus, regardless of the plugins I have installed. 01:19:06 monqy: that'll dump me at a shell prompt 01:19:07 I'd just like to see that from other browsers 01:19:09 ais523: nope 01:19:19 elliott: I'm not talking about hard poweroff; I'm just shocked that soft poweroff isn't the result you get by pressing the power button 01:19:21 elliott: then you're pretty much shut down 01:19:23 indeed 01:19:25 or, hmm, you could always REISUO your system 01:19:27 elliott: just type a few words and bam 01:19:35 ais523: or you could just kickban me! 01:19:37 that's kind-of awkward to interrupt as soon as you hit the E 01:19:53 hmm, I could just spam the channel 01:19:55 and you don't lose data because of fsck things because that's what the S is for 01:20:07 monqy: hi 01:20:13 elliott: hi 01:20:16 monqy: hi 01:20:19 elliott, even if you were kick-banned, you might end up just reading stuff online. That's what I tend to do 01:20:29 Sgeo: my eyes are almost closed 01:20:36 elliott: once you're at the shell prompt it will take more work to get into irc than to shut down 01:20:39 monqy: hi 01:20:43 elliott: hi 01:20:47 monqy: hi 01:20:51 elliott: or do you secretly not want to slep.... 01:21:08 elliott, just put us all on ignore 01:21:12 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:21:17 Or that works too 01:22:15 elliott: I have actually used >>= for something similar to what that says. 01:26:22 Sgeo: NEXT EPISODE ON HOMESTUCK: VAMPIRES VS. CLOWNS. WHO WINS? 01:26:49 god this is ridiculous. 01:28:53 Who wins, at what game? Poker or chess? 01:29:07 Or is it Washizu mahjong? 01:29:45 it's the majong. 01:30:17 it's the game of life 01:30:23 the one were the LOSER FACES DEATH 01:30:30 when you die in real life you die IN REAL LIFE. 01:31:22 When you die in Canada, you die in real life. 01:31:46 MY GOD. NO. WHAT HAVE I DONE. 01:31:51 * kallisti flees Canada immediately. 01:31:54 `addquote When you die in Canada, you die in real life. 01:31:57 773) When you die in Canada, you die in real life. 01:32:10 When you die in not Canada, you also die in real life! 01:32:22 what? NO. FUCK 01:32:24 "When you die in Canada, you die in real life." sounds eerily familiar 01:32:37 ... lol 01:34:08 Therefore, if you die in real life, you die in Canada. 01:34:14 -!- Tritonio has joined. 01:34:20 if Gregor had a strife specibus, it would be hatkind. 01:34:46 What does that mean? 01:34:51 nothing. 01:34:53 zzo38, Homestuck 01:34:55 :) 01:35:04 Sgeo: That is not a very good logic because not everyone Canada. 01:35:22 * Sgeo is aware of this. 01:35:45 * Sgeo is fully aware that if a then b does not imply if b then a 01:36:06 thanks sgeo 01:36:09 for being 01:36:11 ~aware~ 01:36:25 * Sgeo just wanted to make zzo38 aware that he is aware 01:36:25 Sgeo: btw, THAT IS NOT HOW IMPLICATION WORKS. 01:36:59 Should I have said necessarily imply? 01:37:06 zzo38: quick, give this operator meaning in Haskell: >|= 01:37:14 zzo38: could it be a barrier monad thing? the | looks like a barrier. 01:37:24 -!- Tritonio has quit (Client Quit). 01:37:32 Tritonio: bye 01:37:54 > kallisti: Be an Active Worlds bot. 01:38:15 this is the worst channel 01:38:28 my goal in life is now to make a Haskell library with every ridiculous operator you could possibly think of. 01:38:34 monqy: no I bet #jesus is actually worse. 01:38:47 also channels that only have one person. 01:38:48 sometimes a channel is so bad I forget worse channels exist 01:39:15 kallisti: OK lets me try to think of what it can be.. 01:39:17 monqy, am I really that horrible? 01:39:39 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:39:46 Sgeo: it was that single line 01:40:01 it was amazing and i love it 01:40:09 sometimes things are good because they are bad 01:40:42 my goal is now to find a way to create like 20 new operators in a Haskell library. 01:40:53 kallisti: Do you have ideas? 01:40:53 what makes an operator new 01:41:04 -!- Tritonio has joined. 01:41:05 >|= is good 01:41:11 zzo38: but no I don't actually produce ideas. 01:41:15 what does (>|=) do 01:41:26 dunnp/ 01:41:30 Template Haskell to take any function of two or more arguments and make a random operator out of it 01:41:48 -!- azaq23 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 01:41:53 so then you just have to guess what the operator is? 01:41:56 sounds good. 01:43:24 > kallisti: Read MSPA update 01:43:41 the activeworlds bot line had more soul to it 01:43:41 > Sgeo: okay 01:43:42 Not in scope: data constructor `Sgeo'Not in scope: `okay' 01:45:20 Sgeo: the latest pic is amazing :D 01:46:43 Hello. Any brainfuck news? Any breakthrough? 01:47:03 brainfuck? 01:47:31 Eh... Yes? 01:47:36 If you want to make a library of operators, one thing that could have is the <>>= operator that I have made. You could also have bool x y z = if z then y else x; and make a infix operator form of that possibly 01:47:39 -!- azaq23 has joined. 01:47:50 For a moment I bought I was in a wrong room. 01:47:52 Tritonio: What about brainfuck specifically do you want to ask? 01:47:59 it has currently been impossible to introduce brainfuck into the junior curriculum for obvious reasons 01:48:00 Thought* 01:48:26 Tritonio, we used to play games based on Brainfuck 01:48:42 Yes, and ask if you are interested about those kind of game too. 01:48:53 Zzo38 anything new. She when do you mean? 01:48:58 itidus21: what obvious reasons 01:49:25 that you can't teach anything to young people containing the word fuck 01:49:27 monqy: it has fuck in the name. ha. ha. ha. 01:49:30 ha 01:49:44 Tritonio: Look on the wiki. There isn't really much new, but if you have additional ideas, you can discuss them 01:49:47 Tritonio: I don't forsee any brainfuck "breakthroughs" occurring anytime soon. 01:49:59 let us know if you discover any. 01:51:32 OK I'll check the brainfuck page she for the games. Kallisti that's bad. What would you say that we start a brainfuck golf for selected problems from project euler? 01:52:01 BFJoust 01:52:02 She -> sgeo 01:52:19 http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust 01:52:25 because I'd probably kill myself before working through a project euler problem in brainfuck. 01:52:26 We have (had?) a BF Joust bot in here 01:52:32 I already have enough trouble in non-esoteric languages. 01:52:44 the first few problems would be easy enough though. 01:52:53 !bfjoust 01:52:54 ​Use: !bfjoust . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/ 01:53:22 every now and then I come up with a new BF Joust idea and get surprisingly high on the leaderboard with it 01:53:29 !help 01:53:30 ​help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 01:53:31 `help 01:53:32 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 01:53:33 @help 01:53:33 help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands 01:53:35 fungot: help 01:53:36 kallisti: 8 weeks of fnord in hand i've translated here and there. 01:53:42 we like bots. 01:53:52 Also golf would give new twist to the problems since you need short code and not fast code as usually required by euler. 01:55:25 Mostly the ideas about brainfuck would be about compiling into brainfuck codes and compiling a brainfuck code into something else. LLVM includes an example file to compile a brainfuck code into LLVM. 01:55:34 it was left to the educational department to come up with a suitable alternative name and they unanimously decided on the name LearnTech 01:55:57 @slap itidus21 01:55:57 I don't perform such side effects on command! 01:56:48 * Sgeo hits lambdabot with an unsafePerformIO 01:57:11 :t (:=) 01:57:12 Not in scope: data constructor `:=' 01:57:16 :t (=:) 01:57:17 Not in scope: `=:' 01:57:26 : is a capital letter. 01:57:32 correct. 01:58:13 Sgeo: No, in Haskell : is not a letter, it is a uppercase operator symbol. 01:58:50 hmm, that's right, collision and undermine are at #8 and #10 respectively 01:58:55 and both were top 10 the day I invented the strategy 01:59:59 > let (=:) = writeSTRef in runST $ newSTRef 2 >>= (\x -> x =: 4) 02:00:00 () 02:01:36 is there a flip (.) operator? 02:01:43 it would be nice to use on the right-hand side of >>= 02:02:31 >>> 02:02:34 In Control.Arrow 02:02:37 so that you can read left-to-right smoothly instead of having to go backwards on the compositions. 02:02:41 ah 02:02:48 :t (>>>) 02:02:48 forall (cat :: * -> * -> *) a b c. (Control.Category.Category cat) => cat a b -> cat b c -> cat a c 02:02:58 ....Category? 02:03:05 -!- Klisz has joined. 02:03:11 well that would work too 02:03:16 I mean, that makes more sense than restricting it to arrows, but 02:03:45 Oh, it's in Control.Category too, and Control.Arrow reexports it 02:04:23 (.) has different fixity from >>> and <<< 02:04:34 And >>> and <<< are both infixr for some reason 02:04:45 (Maybe it doesn't matter infixr vs infixl?) 02:04:52 fixity? 02:04:58 you mean associativity? or precedence? 02:04:59 But still, infixr 9 . and infixr 1 >>>, <<< 02:05:02 composition is associative 02:05:13 kallisti, yes, fixity declarations specify precedence and associativity 02:05:27 monqy, ah, ok 02:05:31 kallisti: l and r give associativity, and the number is precedence 02:05:41 .....I was not asking a question about what those mean. 02:05:52 :| 02:06:04 he said "fixity" and out of context it didn't make any sense. 02:06:12 because that's not what fixity normally means. 02:06:15 Ah 02:06:36 what does "fixity" normally mean? 02:06:51 Vorpal: Fixedness 02:07:02 NihilistDandy, hm okay, but "fixity" sounds weird 02:07:14 oh hm, apparently fixity does mean associativity 02:07:18 Yeah. I've never actually seen it used in that sense 02:07:20 fixedness is what I would use 02:07:21 I thought it meant infix, postfix, prefix, etc. 02:07:37 Ah 02:07:58 why would a game get black bars at the top and bottom of a fucking 16:9 monitor. That is how wide screen it gets! 02:08:20 o.O Haddock can't parse (.) = (Prelude..) 02:08:40 I think Prelude.. looks so silly. 02:09:59 Clean uses o for composition, I think 02:13:50 -!- tuubow has joined. 02:22:41 -!- Patashu has joined. 02:26:17 Goodnight everyone. Talk to you soon I hope. 02:27:49 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Bye). 02:30:46 Sgeo: perl uses sub{f (g @_))} for composition. :) 02:37:40 -!- kmc has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:42:10 Vorpal: the game simply refuses to yield it's display ratio... refuses! 02:42:19 itidus21, heh 02:42:34 itidus21, well apart from that it is /the/ best game I ever played. 02:42:48 I guess it could be a case of aesthetics? 02:42:49 it is _because_ of that 02:42:58 itidus21, doubtful 02:43:27 just put some paper matching the color of the screen over the blacked out parts 02:43:41 itidus21, it is the best game ever because the story is awesome, the game mechanics are solid, the voice acting superb and the graphics the best I never seen. 02:43:49 (The Witcher 2) 02:44:04 s/never/ever/ 02:44:20 try a super gameboy style border 02:44:23 heh 02:44:26 made of paper 02:44:36 you don't want it distracting though 02:44:53 nothing too contrasting 02:44:57 itidus21, I shall upload some screenshots of this game played on almost-ultra (my high end PC can't do ultra. You basically need a dual-GPU setup to do that) 02:45:25 like.. black and white next to each other gives a jarring contrast 02:48:03 itidus21, you have to agree this looks crazy-awesome good. Unlike say skyrim. Which looks horrible. http://whotookspaz.org/~anmaster/images/witcher2/witcher2_2011-12-21_02-55-00-69.png 02:48:45 Skyrim could have been a good-looking game, with more polygons and higher resolution textures 02:48:54 as it is now it is obviously a console-port 02:49:06 which also shows in the god damn horrible menu system 02:49:40 while witcher 2 is obviously a PC-game throughout. The menu system is very suited to mouse and keyboard. 02:49:47 itidus21, anyway what do you think of that screenshot. 02:49:51 I could upload some more 02:50:05 im in a chilling out mood so not right now. but it looks good 02:50:21 in a what mood? 02:51:01 itidus21, the plants there, they move realistically. It is not like skyrim where you see that they are made up of some textures on large flat surfaces (that effect was even worse in oblivion) 02:52:15 @tell elliott You complained about Skyrim textures. Check out the images in http://whotookspaz.org/~anmaster/images/witcher2/ then 02:52:15 Consider it noted. 02:52:40 -!- kmc has joined. 02:54:41 itidus21, see also http://whotookspaz.org/~anmaster/images/witcher2/witcher2_2011-12-21_02-59-54-57.png for some close-ups from a conversation. 02:54:48 err for one close-up even 02:56:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:56:41 oerjan, I haven't seen elliott for some time. Any idea if he is out of town or something? 02:56:50 or if I just missed him 02:57:14 Vorpal: you missed him 02:57:21 oh okay 02:57:25 he was here earlier, and trying to get people to kickban him so that he'd go to bed 02:57:30 heh 02:57:35 ais523, usually I go to bed before him 02:57:43 and before you too 02:58:01 though my sleeping schedule is utterly messed up currently 02:58:05 I'm sure oerjan has half a proof sketch :P <-- don't be ridiculous :P 03:00:36 Hello. Any brainfuck news? Any breakthrough? <-- wait, did no one tell him about my 3-cell TC proof :( 03:01:11 i don't know if he's been around since then 03:03:20 -!- kmc has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:05:18 Vorpal: elliott's sleep schedule isn't a schedule. :) 03:06:37 -!- Klisz has quit (Quit: You are now graced with my absence.). 03:07:13 What would be the use of the type $1+2+3+4+\cdots=-{1\over12}$ in Haskell? 03:07:26 wat 03:08:11 Obviously there are no negative or fraction cardinalities but you can still do things like this 03:08:37 zzo38: maybe something with zippers. they're based on using derivation on types, so why not that. 03:08:51 03:09:21 oerjan: Yes that is what I was thinking of too. But I still don't know exactly what it would mean or whatever. 03:09:44 -!- Klisz has joined. 03:13:03 My vet sent me an email. Make sure not to feed your cat tinsel. 03:13:06 I'll keep that in mind. 03:13:59 Gregor: I think there's an implication of "and don't let your cat feed itself tinsel" 03:14:21 rubbish, true cat owners only buy edible tinsel 03:15:03 next: how to decorate a tree with kebab strips 03:15:27 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 03:16:31 My Tinsel is Purina Dietetic Management Tinsel 03:16:48 Vorpal: elliott's sleep schedule isn't a schedule. :) <-- good point 03:17:23 What would be the use of the type $1+2+3+4+\cdots=-{1\over12}$ in Haskell? <-- that is TeX not Haskell 03:19:04 True cat owners use catnip Chrismas trees. 03:19:19 Gregor, heh 03:19:24 and get visits from santa paws 03:19:33 oops 03:19:38 santa claws? 03:19:55 i think i'll stick with paws 03:20:32 itidus21, I guess it is Santa Jaws for sharks? 03:20:43 yup 03:27:58 Santa Caws for crows 03:29:07 What an exciting time the 3-cell TC proof was :D 03:29:41 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 03:29:44 did that ever get resolved? 03:29:52 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:30:00 welcome back 03:32:11 NihilistDandy, and Sata Raws for photographers? 03:32:39 lol 03:32:53 coppro: What get resolved? 03:33:14 3-ell bf tc-ness 03:33:27 Yeah, oerjan was successful 03:33:48 coppro: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Collatz_function 03:34:07 Vorpal: I know that is TeX not Haskell. I meant it just to specify mathematically what I meant 03:35:09 Vorpal: my belief about realism in games etc is that the more real something is the easier it is for a human to comprehend it 03:35:22 ie. the value of improved graphics 03:35:51 the part of me that enjoyed it for what it is has gone numb years ago 03:35:55 itidus21: You're forgetting the uncanny valley 03:36:03 hummmm 03:36:06 oerjan: awesome 03:36:11 i love uncanny valley 03:36:17 why do we want to build the uncanny valley? 03:36:36 i mean.. why do we pursue it? :D 03:36:53 hmmmmmmmm 03:37:02 itidus21: to get past it, presumably 03:37:03 You can make more realism in games even if you have no graphics at all. The way to do realism is by physics, not by graphics, in my opinion. 03:37:26 Realism in games either has to be indistinguishable from reality or cartoonish enough that it doesn't make people uncomfortable 03:37:39 zzo38: you didn't have time to prepare your opinion of course.. 03:37:41 (Of course, if you have graphics, you would want the graphics to correctly reflect the physics of the game) 03:38:10 Has anyone in here used Factor, at all? 03:38:24 NihilistDandy: I have read about it. 03:38:35 Vorpal: my belief about realism in games etc is that the more real something is the easier it is for a human to comprehend it <-- abstractions can help sometimes 03:38:54 :) 03:38:59 good game 03:39:07 you win! 03:39:09 Realism in games either has to be indistinguishable from reality or cartoonish enough that it doesn't make people uncomfortable <-- what about the two screenshots in http://whotookspaz.org/~anmaster/images/witcher2/ 03:39:14 you can still see it isn't real 03:39:20 but I wouldn't call it uncanny 03:39:42 hmmmmmmm 03:39:43 yet I would call the graphics superb 03:39:52 i had a chat with a guy once about the uncanny valley and gaming 03:40:10 i forget exactly what he said 03:40:19 Vorpal: They are, but they are also obviously not real 03:40:23 NihilistDandy, well yes 03:40:25 Uncanny valley is more subtle 03:40:49 I think people focus too much on graphics. Sure, it can enhance storytelling by giving the game cinematic qualities, but to me the gameplay is far more important. 03:40:52 motion capture can quickly become uncanny 03:41:06 kallisti: Yes I think the gameplay is far more important 03:41:07 to the extent that most of my favorite games either have not amazing graphics or no graphics at all. 03:41:10 NihilistDandy, also the NPCs do such things as huff on a fire after they light it. That could potentially start being in behavioural uncanny valley 03:41:15 though not quite there 03:41:36 Are there horses in that game? 03:41:37 kallisti: Yes, to me too 03:41:38 kallisti, agreed. But the whole makes the game. 03:41:40 NihilistDandy, nope 03:41:50 And the uncanny valley is why 03:41:59 It would ruin their entire attempt at realism 03:42:00 NihilistDandy, skyrim has horses without problems 03:42:14 NihilistDandy, and that is not the reason. The reason is that the distances are small. 03:42:20 Vorpal: Right, but I'd be willing to bet their movements are unsettling 03:42:22 I would say horses in skyrim are actually pretty unrealistic. 03:42:26 they can practically climb mountains. 03:42:31 NihilistDandy, and many indoor or thick wood areas 03:42:43 same with the dragon movement. not very convincing, though certainly an improvement overall from Oblivion. 03:43:04 NihilistDandy, yes, because due to bugs they can climb up near vertical slopes. They tend to spaz out while doing so :P 03:43:07 not what you meant I know 03:43:14 but no, they are not uncanny otherwise 03:43:26 ffs 03:43:44 Vorpal: it is possible you haven't been initiated into the concept of uncanny valley 03:43:53 itidus21, it is possible I never ran into it 03:44:02 i just did once by chance 03:44:06 someone told me about it 03:44:09 the uncanny valley is bordered on each side by the canny mountains. 03:44:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley 03:44:14 itidus21, anyway I watched raytraced images that are like super-realistic and never found them uncanny 03:44:25 That's not what is meant by uncanny valley 03:44:45 well right, that is more to do with movements than still graphics 03:45:08 NihilistDandy, anyway witcher 2 uses motion capture so there... 03:45:13 its when your brain gets confused about whether a thing is a _real_ human or not 03:45:18 Photorealistic renderings are just as vulnerable 03:45:20 no 03:45:25 NihilistDandy, couldn't you just do motion capture on horses? 03:45:27 (to itidus21) 03:45:28 just an idea 03:45:33 ok 03:46:17 Vorpal: Yes, and they have. But the brain understand more about natural motion than you think. Either it must be indistinguishable from reality, or it must be bad enough as not to be revolting 03:46:34 heh 03:46:36 *understands 03:47:03 NihilistDandy, how comes no one is annoyed at the pretty realistic results you get from motion capture on humans then? 03:47:23 Is no one annoyed? 03:47:27 its a subtle thing.. 03:47:36 I found LA Noire very difficult to play for long periods 03:48:05 There was something close to real, but just off by a narrow margin 03:48:09 It was unsettling 03:48:36 To use an obvious example, what is your natural reaction when you see someone with a prosthetic hand? 03:48:49 Or, more directly, if you found yourself shaking such a hand, how would you react? 03:49:09 Very realistic facsimile, but also not the real thing 03:50:15 I found LA Noire very difficult to play for long periods <-- while I haven't played it, I watched a Let's Play of it. I didn't have any issues with that 03:50:19 iirc they used face scanning 03:50:29 To use an obvious example, what is your natural reaction when you see someone with a prosthetic hand? <-- I never seen one 03:50:36 _-_ 03:50:51 the only one I can remember atm is the one of Luke Skywalker, and that is a real hand actually :P 03:52:55 NihilistDandy, anyway I do hope we get real time raytracing on GPUs in the future. That would be awesome. (Sure it can be done to very limited degrees currently, but I meant for something more complex than a couple of bouncing balls above a plane) 03:53:38 photon mapping or MLP are so much more expensive that I don't see them coming any time soon 03:55:27 i don't see the point anyway 03:55:33 waste of computing power.. ahahhahaha 03:56:03 huh? 03:56:07 I don't get the joke 03:56:21 you don't need graphics that good 03:56:33 it's literally a waste of computer cycles 03:56:57 itidus21, well who "needs" games anyway? 03:57:26 itidus21, ? 03:57:27 ok which object do you first imagine when you think of photon mapping? 03:57:35 i am curious to compare 03:57:40 itidus21, uh? 03:57:56 maybe i read bouncing balls.. cos i thought of a soccer or volleyball 03:57:59 itidus21: You live in the *wrong* timespan to be talking about a "waste of computer cycles". 03:58:06 itidus21, probably I think of povray. I believe it can do that 03:58:14 ahh 03:58:19 not completely sure though 03:58:25 Your computer spends oodles of time busily doing nothing at all. 03:58:26 i guess i was thinking of blitzball from final fantasy 10 03:58:28 I know luxrender uses MLP 03:58:45 pikhq: and all the porn on the internet :-s 03:58:57 pikhq, unless you are doing raytracing :P 03:59:07 the reality is that a lot of what an economy does is garbage 03:59:37 Vorpal: Even then unless you do it in very tightly coded assembly you're chucking away a lot of clock cyclesz. 03:59:42 no no thats not the reality 03:59:55 im just a bitter cynical anxious 29 year old 03:59:57 pikhq, of course 04:00:20 pikhq, I'm going to graph the CPU and GPU load when plaing witcher 2 04:00:24 playing* 04:00:36 Vorpal: Anyways, realtime raytracing GPUs "should" just be a matter of a few more iterations of Moore's Law. 04:01:04 pikhq, what about MLP and so on? 04:01:46 MLP = ? 04:01:53 Metropolis Light Transport 04:01:58 luxrender uses it iirc 04:02:08 pikhq, unlike photon mapping it is unbiased 04:02:59 Vorpal: Exponentials are powerful shit, man. 04:03:05 anyway witcher 2 did eat 100% of the GPU. And it peaked on about 35% of the CPU cores that it used. (it used all but one) 04:03:15 pikhq, well yes 04:04:01 hm witcher 2 ate about half the dedicated GPU memory. While iirc skyrim uses nearly all of it. And GTA IV fill sit completely. How strange 04:04:14 fills it* 04:04:24 because witcher 2 is definitely the game with the highest texture resolution 04:04:35 maybe it is just better optimised 04:05:26 its just that as i age, i have to wonder just what graphics mean to me as a human 04:05:35 like on a philosophical level 04:05:46 oh no 04:05:58 hmm? 04:06:32 why oh no? 04:06:39 never mind 04:06:42 NihilistDandy, btw the plants in witcher 2 actually look realistic in how they move in the wind. 04:06:49 you just figured out i was horribly mentally ill? 04:06:58 you are? 04:06:58 or a problem in your cpu calculations :P 04:07:02 i dont know? 04:07:15 "oh no, not more itidus21-philosophy" actually 04:07:37 NihilistDandy, they definitely don't look like they are some partly transparent textures on a few flat planes 04:07:43 Vorpal: Plants aren't the issue. They're not at all like people or any other living thing 04:07:43 they bend in a /lot/ of places 04:07:48 *living, moving thing 04:08:18 If you're not going to bother learning what the uncanny valley is, I don't know how you plan to disprove it 04:08:22 hm 04:08:30 NihilistDandy, so it is just humans and animals? 04:08:45 (otherwise, why would horses be affected) 04:09:21 Read the article 04:09:28 Yes, it's humans and animals 04:10:43 hm 04:12:01 NihilistDandy, anyway I might give LA Noir a try at some point, except it looked like a boring version of GTA :P 04:12:17 well, same developer, the cover mechanics were the same as far as I could tell 04:12:32 It's more of a story game, but the story's a bit lame 04:12:38 well yes it is 04:12:49 I think they had much less fluid cover mechanics than Deus Ex: Human Revolution 04:13:10 (a game which looked like shit, probably becuase I played it directly after witcher 2) 04:14:34 NihilistDandy, I ended up a bit spoiled by witcher 2 I think. I jumped straight from the original NWN and minecraft into witcher 2 when I got my new computer. Which means every other modern games look like shit to me. Well I heard good things about Battlefield 3, haven't played it, don't like that genre. 04:16:17 lol 04:17:46 oh and I did try rage. It look good in some places and horrible in other. Which is just jarring. Plus I'm not an FPS fan. 04:19:12 I made some computer game too but I generally didn't do like this; whether the graphics or whatever important depend much on the game. Some game it has no graphics. 04:19:41 id software lost their mojo after quake 1 04:20:00 itidus21, well they definitely lost it by the time of Rage I can tell 04:20:18 25 GB installation size and it looked like shit. Wtf... 04:21:02 quake 2, quake 3: arena, quake wars, quake 4, doom 3, rage.. did anybody give a fuck 04:21:37 I didn't give a fuck about Quake 1 either. Mostly because I don't like FPS. 04:22:06 I'm okay with stealth FPS/RPG mixes 04:22:14 If only you'd played Goldeneye~ 04:22:21 alas I haven't 04:22:26 i dont play much games at all but i know that wolf 3d, doom, doom 2, quake 1 put id right up there on the ma[ 04:22:27 I played Perfect Dark though 04:22:31 ^map 04:22:32 not quite a fan of that 04:22:41 Perfect Dark sucked but for the railgun 04:23:24 NihilistDandy, but I did like Deus Ex: Human Revolution, apart from the sub-par graphics I liked it. And I did quite enjoy Fallout: New Vegas. I liked the VATS mechanics of that game 04:23:27 i would like to explain the problem with games but its kinda difficult 04:23:36 I still prefer fantasy RPGs though 04:23:59 anyway the good point about both Deus Ex and Fallout 3/NV are they are RPG/FPS mixes 04:24:04 I don't enjoy pure FPS 04:24:18 I just want to play BGII forevr 04:24:28 what game is that? 04:25:07 -!- PiRSquared17 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:25:33 NihilistDandy, ^ 04:25:49 Baldur's Gate II 04:25:57 ah right 04:26:33 never played that, I do want to play Planescape Torment at some point, probably some of the Baldur's Gate games too 04:26:39 the old Bioware games were /good/ 04:26:56 Planescape was awesome, too 04:27:00 NihilistDandy, what would you say about a Baldur's Gate game with modern graphics? 04:27:01 Liked BGII bette 04:27:04 *better 04:27:09 apparently they're making a new planetside game. 04:27:10 I wouldn't like it as much 04:27:13 the first one was pretty fun. 04:27:15 NihilistDandy, oh? 04:27:17 It's not about the graphics. It's about the story 04:27:30 NihilistDandy, well, with a equally good story as the original of course 04:27:31 The story is really deep and interesting, and the quests are fun 04:27:51 I dunno. I like that I can play BGII on any old machine from the last 10 years 04:27:53 It's convenient 04:28:03 intel graphics? 04:28:22 NihilistDandy, anyway you will just have to wait another 10 years and that will be true for the new game :P 04:28:46 I've played BGII five times through. No other game gets that kind of attention from me 04:29:12 I never played a game 5 times through 04:29:32 witcher 2 I played 4 times 04:29:38 Vorpal: I doubt all newer computers will come with off-board graphics cards 04:29:41 because there are like 4 majorly different endings 04:29:59 kallisti, true. 04:30:11 kallisti, so say 20 years then :P 04:30:36 maybe. my prophecy abilities get kind of fuzzy out there. 04:30:46 same for me 04:31:12 so I'm pretty excited that the world's ending. 04:31:21 it is? 04:31:21 I kind of forgot about the whole 2012 thing. 04:31:26 oh right 04:31:31 did it say when in 2012? 04:31:42 not that I'm aware. I think there may be a specific date. 04:31:51 might be worth checking that 04:32:41 12/21 iirc 04:32:50 so almost a year left then 04:32:53 no worry 04:38:21 NihilistDandy, speaking of games: I hate cut scenes not rendered using the in-game engine 04:38:31 that was one major annoyance with Deus Ex: HR 04:38:49 I dunno. They were nice in the middle Final Fantasy games 04:39:00 NihilistDandy, never played any past the SNES ones 04:39:18 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:39:34 NihilistDandy, anyway with Deus Ex: HR they were like 720p upscaled to my much larger monitor 04:39:43 which is horrible 04:40:34 again I have to commend witcher 2 for that. I believe the only pre-rendered screens are the loading screens (and you only get them when loading a game and when it is loading data for the next chapter) 04:40:45 and they are kind of like paintings or such 04:41:03 guess I could screenshot that to show what I mean 04:41:13 heck even the main menu background is rendered with the game engine! 04:44:18 Vorpal: i dont think nihil means the snes ones though 04:44:25 I know 04:44:30 hmmm 04:44:42 well as everyone knows, snes final fantasies are the best 04:45:13 itidus21, maybe, I don't know 04:45:24 lol 04:45:25 anyway here is the loading screen for chapter 1 http://whotookspaz.org/~anmaster/images/witcher2/witcher2_2011-12-22_04-41-20-47.png 04:45:38 not everyone knows 04:45:42 it isn't animated 04:45:47 unlike the main menu background 04:46:08 well obviously the progress "bar" (progress circle?) is animated 04:47:14 kebabbbbbbbbbbbb 04:47:23 want 04:48:26 it seems the image viewer in windows uses directx btw, since fraps shows the frame rate in it 04:48:40 so has there ever been a brainfuck with numbers? 04:48:56 itidus21, you mean like +4 instead of ++++? 04:49:08 yeah 04:49:18 that is common run length encoding 04:49:22 fairly common 04:49:30 or >4 for >>>> 04:49:41 * Sgeo wrote BF-RLE a while ago 04:49:44 >.> 04:50:00 Base-something, >0 means >>> iirc 04:50:06 I believe bf joust can parse that by like +*5 or such? 04:50:18 Sgeo, >0 = >>> what? 04:50:38 that isn't the usual way 04:50:50 sometimes the usual way isn't the best way 04:50:54 Vorpal, it makes more sense, I think, because then you get the most bang for every digit 04:52:17 kebabbbbbbbbbbbbb 04:52:21 Sgeo, I would just use gzip if space was an issue 04:52:31 or even xz 04:52:57 Sgeo, I'm not a huge fan of source code golfing btw :P 04:53:02 so it was reading kebabbbbbbb which made me ask that question 04:53:04 it just doesn't interest me hugely 04:53:14 itidus21, what question? 04:53:24 oh the bf one 04:53:24 right 04:53:27 ya 04:54:00 interesting side node: .b is brainfuck and .bf is befunge-93 04:54:31 there is of course the question of whether doing that completely defeats the purpose of bfuk or if it introduces a new class of language 04:55:42 The only real reason to us BF-specific RLE is for humans, Sgeo. 04:56:01 hmm 04:56:14 pikhq, and I take it humans don't like large bases and 0 meaning 3? 04:56:22 does the bf compiler convert the sequence of + into a number internally? 04:56:32 Sgeo: Right. 04:56:43 Sgeo: We humans use base 10. 04:56:44 oops i guess its implementation dependant 04:57:01 itidus21, fast ones merge instructions yes 04:57:13 zzo38 used BF-RLE 04:57:13 >.> 04:57:17 itidus21, like ++- into a single "add 1" or even "set memory to current + 1" 04:57:27 Sgeo: zzo38 may not be human. 04:57:38 pikhq, snap you beat me to it 04:58:02 itidus21, I find bf optimisation to be possibly the most interesting aspect of bf 04:58:22 !bf_txtgen Hello World 04:58:26 ​109 ++++++++++[>+++>+++++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>++.>+.+++++++..+++.<<++.>+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>. [161] 04:58:30 Yeah, it's actually pretty entertaining creating a moderately optimising BF compiler. 04:58:43 As well as generating reasonable Brainfuck. 04:58:49 like turning that into a fputs("Hello World", stdout) or such 04:59:10 pikhq, I was thinking utterly optimising one :P 04:59:30 Vorpal: Also true, but that's a bit more work. :P 04:59:35 pikhq, that is one thing I do while waiting for the bus. Thinking about new ways to optimise bf 04:59:56 pikhq, yes implementing them are. It is much more fun to design them than to implement them! 05:00:25 this is true in general of computer software 05:00:36 (oh god, am I turning into a PH?) 05:00:48 brb 05:02:43 pikhq: what kind of techniques can you use to optimize brainfuck programs? 05:03:08 aside from the obvious "group one or more [+-><] into one operation" 05:05:33 hmmm actually they don't even need to be consecutive. if you can determine that + or - operations are performed on the same memory cell and computing their change all at once doesn't interfere with a loop 05:05:47 then you should be able to do that without problem. 05:06:09 though I doubt that happens very often, and I think the savings would be minimal in most cases. 05:06:12 kallisti: Another fairly easy one is folding pointer-movement operations into the other operations. 05:06:25 "folding" them? 05:06:39 For instance, mine folds ">>>++++" into Add 3 4 05:06:45 I have once written a program that does a few optimizations for brainfuck program. Some including brainfuck->brainfuck optimization, others can be done once compiling to something else. 05:06:52 'Add 4 to p[3]", basically. 05:07:01 ah 05:07:17 Doing that is essential for just about any higher-level optimisation. 05:07:28 yes that's a good one, assuming that you don't have to recalculate that offset over and over. 05:08:26 actually I don't think that would be an issue. 05:08:38 it's always going to be faster than manually moving a cell pointer around 05:09:07 it would be nice to be able to detect swaps and the like. 05:09:32 Otherwise, a lot of what you do is pattern matching on common idioms. 05:10:04 so for example if a loop decrements its dependent cell and adds to two other cells at the same time. 05:10:21 you could eliminate the loop completely and copy the dependent cell into the two new cells, then 0 the dependent cell. 05:10:37 Some of the optimizations I have done, however, are for when you are compiling something else to brainfuck, such as macros or something else whatever. Including cancel out -+ +- <> >< and to replace [[x]] with [x] and [+] with [-] to match them easily and so on. 05:11:12 yeah a number of loop eliminate tricks would greatly speed up code. 05:12:20 I think cases like [->+>+<<] should be possible to spot in a somewhat general way. 05:13:22 also cases with two or more +'s can be converted into multiplication by a cell with a constant. 05:13:22 puzzlang looks interesting. i approve of the idea 05:14:44 i can't say i understand it though 05:16:53 hmmm, could you perhaps determine that a loop always halts when the number of >'s and <'s are even and there's a + or - at the starting location and all loops within it also halt? 05:17:15 s/also halt/can be determined to halt/ 05:17:48 (also by even I mean "are equal" not literally that there sum is even) 05:19:00 more generally, if you count + as a +1 and - as a -1, the count of +'s and -'s on the starting location cannot equal 0 05:20:19 I can't think of a counterexample where these conditions are true and the loop doesn't halt. 05:21:01 -!- PiRSquaredAway has joined. 05:21:04 "Wikipedia credit cards 9 months interest freecorpus christi free legal advicecreate an robot freecollege free porn videocopy playstation 2 games free softwarecomic cartoon art free xcorn free pudding recipecollage sex videos free" 05:21:10 really all that tells you is that you can run some loop elimination passes, and you now know that at the end of the loop the starting location will always be 0. 05:21:35 If a loop is known to never halt and no I/O is done, the optimizer can emit a warning, replace that part with a idle loop, and delete everything after that point. 05:21:42 hi pi 05:21:47 Hello 05:21:52 (That is, within a block, if it is within a block) 05:21:59 pi. are you a bot? 05:22:14 itidus21: no, what do you think? o.O 05:22:21 zzo38: heh 05:22:26 your initial post was just a bt weird 05:22:31 ^bit 05:22:41 kallisti: You neglected "and there's no input on the current cell" 05:22:49 pikhq: ah yes. 05:22:52 It's the content of this wonderful spam page: 05:22:54 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Content_Server_Adobe_Download_Free 05:22:56 pikhq: those tricky IO operations. 05:23:20 I think cases like [->+>+<<] should be possible to spot in a somewhat general way. <-- we've discussed it before, it's a bit of linear algebra, euclid's extended algorithm and modulo arithmetic (assuming wrapping cells). 05:23:48 pikhq: also I think the opposite (this loop never halts) can also be determined with the same rules, and of course a , on the current cell immediately makes the halting problem unknown. 05:23:52 Yeah, I don't *quite* get the algorithm (mostly because I've not bothered figuring it out), but I know that esotope-bfc does that. 05:24:30 pikhq: sorry about that. :D 05:24:36 i mean 05:24:39 pir: 05:24:46 PiRSquaredAway: 05:24:49 ... 05:25:12 oerjan: what other cases does that algorithm cover? 05:25:48 itidus21: I'm stalking, pi, pir, pirs, etc. All the way up to PiRSquared17 05:26:17 kallisti: anything with no further nested loops, i think 05:26:18 i forgot to put a space after "pir:" 05:26:42 kallisti: btw +[++] never halts on common implementations (which don't have odd sized cell ranges) 05:26:44 the autocomplete doesn't kick in without something after it 05:26:57 oerjan: ah, indeed. 05:27:18 oerjan: so, more generally, the number of [+-] cannot be an even number. 05:27:37 oh..hmmm 05:27:38 nevermind 05:27:41 If a loop known infinite even in caes of input, and that loop does have I/O, then simply remove everything after that loop that is within the same block. 05:27:46 you can't really apply that logic unless you know the exact value beforehand. 05:27:52 kallisti: um [++] without a + in front frequently halts. :P 05:28:01 right. 05:29:17 kallisti: yes. this is part of what you can determine with modulos arithmetic. basically the gcd of the initial value and the +- total on that cell must divide the cell range size, if it's wrapping. 05:29:22 *modulo 05:29:46 er wait 05:32:56 lessee we need i+n*t == m*r, which means... gcd t r divides i. 05:34:03 extended euclid algorithm is needed to find n, and thus the actual number of loop iterations. 05:35:40 I think you could probably reduce the amount of information you need via some special cases. 05:35:56 like when the +- count is 1 or -1 05:36:06 or (I think) odd? 05:36:07 yes, as then you always halt. 05:36:32 odd with common cell sizes, yes. 05:37:03 except unbounded, which is a bit different again. 05:40:20 you can calculate the gcd t r + n*t == m*r at compile time, and then only at most some simple division remains at runtime, i think. 05:40:46 since only i can vary. 05:41:46 back 05:43:02 zzo38, "[[x]] with [x]" <- sure, but who uses the former? 05:43:28 kallisti, if no one mentioned it before, check out esotope-bfc 05:43:31 Vorpal: It might come out after some macro expansions have occurred and then some other things have been eliminated due to cancelling 05:43:42 brainfuck doesn't have macros 05:43:46 so that is irrelevant 05:43:55 Vorpal: he was speaking about autogenerated bf, sheesh 05:44:00 right 05:44:01 Well, but you might compile something that has macros into it 05:44:22 but then lostking.b has dead code in general 05:44:32 which should have been optimised when generating it 05:49:01 Another thing is that if a loop comes directly after another loop, the second loop can be deleted since it will never be executed (as in ][) and that can be used even with brainfuck codes written directly since it is sometimes used to add comments at the beginning or end of a program 05:49:24 A loop at the beginning of a program can be eliminated for this reason, such as comment 05:49:32 that is a side effect of value tracking and dead code elimination 05:49:36 Or a macro system generated might put [-] at the beginning possibly 05:49:39 you don't need to special case it 05:49:52 if you just track which cells are known to be a specific value 05:51:15 *sigh* now there's a troll on haskell-cafe... 05:52:06 heh? 05:52:53 an annoying guy claiming denotational semantics and bottoms don't make sense. 05:53:09 haskell-cafe has just me and another guy, is he a troll 05:53:48 oklopol: well the other option is too horrible to contemplate. 05:54:25 i'm not quite sure if i'm a troll 05:54:33 i don't have like a baseline 05:54:46 but do you have a bottom? 05:55:35 well i have been _|_ many a time 05:55:45 hmm 05:55:48 that sounds kind of gay 05:55:55 i think i'll keep using my plural. 05:56:03 o kay 05:56:19 this is a reference to something we discussed earlier 05:58:24 oh well i guess this haskell-cafe discussion _is_ about what people would want to change in haskell if they made it from scratch. 05:58:45 oklopol: okay 06:00:30 i would add more monads 06:00:57 the problem with haskell is that you have too few monads 06:01:23 well i have been trying to make a backward list monad and failed 06:01:32 what does that mean 06:02:28 hey seriously #haskell-cafe is it? 06:02:38 oklopol: it's an email list 06:02:42 I would probably change some things including to make that Monad require Functor and join is a class method of Monad. But I would have other things changed too, such as having its own preprocessor with powerful instead of using C preprocessor 06:02:44 someone is throwing a tennisball or something around in the hallway 06:03:02 and it keeps hitting my door and i'm like omg someone coming in i'm way too naked for that 06:03:25 the list monad gives an Applicative automatically, like every monad. now every applicative can be turned backwards by switching <*> with <**>. 06:03:31 I also wouldn't have a if...then...else command, instead you can use a function that takes the boolean True/False as its third parameter 06:04:01 the question is, does that extend back to a monad? starting with lists, the answer seems to be no. 06:04:05 so you want a monad that gives the reversed applicative version of the list sure 06:04:38 *list monad 06:04:54 I know it seem not all backward applicative will be a monad even if the forward applicative is monad 06:05:16 it's easy to see that its join would have to be concat . transpose on _rectangular_ lists of lists. 06:05:28 well obviously. 06:05:50 but the join . join == join . fmap join law breaks. and i think it's unfixable. 06:06:12 yep, so it would seem. 06:06:20 (i have no idea what applicative is) 06:06:27 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 06:06:31 -!- oerjan has kicked oklopol oklopol. 06:06:40 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 06:06:41 -!- oklopol has joined. 06:06:57 SOME PEOPLE 06:07:02 hey not everyone likes cs 06:07:07 not that i didn't suspect it 06:07:15 i bet you don't know what a derivative is! 06:07:23 see 06:07:27 we all have our strengths. 06:07:42 sure i know, it's a financial instrument responsible for much of our current crisis. 06:08:14 by allowing bad debt to be hidden. 06:08:18 no it means that a function resembles another function so much that its originality is questionable 06:09:17 the rest is just needless formalism 06:09:47 ah. 06:10:55 a knock on my door again 06:11:18 this is getting weird, they aren't throwing a ball anymore (i'm starting to doubt if they even were) 06:11:24 well i'll leave you to your orgy of fate -> 06:11:29 i should prolly go see if it's a murderer or somethign 06:11:35 *something 06:11:45 and to work also 06:19:51 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:19:59 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:27:31 -!- tuubow has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:29:21 What's a good operator for a substring test? 06:30:46 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38's Dungeons & Dragons character may not be a human. zzo38 probably is human (whether is supposed to or not??)). 06:33:57 kallisti, update. 06:42:23 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:43:27 IMPORTANT-NOTE: I wrote "whether is supposed to or not??" but actually I meant "Ka7xe8#??" 06:43:31 -!- zzo38 has quit (Client Quit). 06:45:10 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:45:19 Or.... possibly..... maybe not..... 06:45:22 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:45:23 @tell zzo38 welcome back 06:45:23 Consider it noted. 06:46:16 @tell zzo38 it was funny for me at the time since you were joining and leaving at a high rate. but the joke has expired 06:46:16 Consider it noted. 06:47:03 :t isInfixOf -- kallisti 06:47:04 forall a. (Eq a) => [a] -> [a] -> Bool 06:47:17 oerjan: ha. ha. ha. 06:47:18 no 06:47:20 well, easy, not efficient. 06:47:34 this is merely a syntax choice 06:47:42 it has nothing to do with a specific language 06:47:54 I think I might go with Python's "in" operator 06:47:59 well in that case i recommend -<=!!-&*% 06:48:04 ah yes 07:01:02 -!- Klisz has quit (Quit: You are now graced with my absence.). 07:05:16 oerjan: that looks like a Feather operator, but I can't decode it 07:05:27 I really must start using words for the names of things in Feather 07:05:37 it's just /so tempting/ to make all the keywords strings of punctuation marks 07:05:50 !#%/!!! 07:06:37 * oerjan looks at the topic 07:06:52 _that's_ what i did wrong, i never did that. 07:12:16 you didn't come back and become a drug lord and killed yourself? 07:12:17 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:12:31 i never even got to the far away part. 07:13:18 also, it was never come back, duh 07:16:17 you never came back and became a drug lord and killed yourself? 07:16:28 fixed 07:16:33 nope 07:17:00 oh hm, i see the topic is ambiguous there 07:17:23 fiendish. 07:18:53 * kallisti is actually getting into a good code/test rhythm. 07:19:02 usually I do massive amounts of coding without any testing, and then test everything all at once. 07:19:17 but today I'm implementing small pieces and testing before moving on to the next. 07:19:27 MUCH BETTER 07:19:43 code/test/rewrite/break/scream/tear hair 07:20:03 when i try that I often end up code/test/code/code/code/code/code/oops 07:20:42 these are the words of lesser men. 07:20:47 and then try to invent some "good" tests for the 100 completely new features from the coding part 07:20:52 * kallisti is sticking to his incremental code/test thing. 07:21:02 but yes I am a horrible tester actually. 07:21:09 mainly because it's so tedious. 07:22:02 test/code/test/code/test/code, so goes the TDD creed. 07:22:17 you test before you code? 07:22:23 In TDD. 07:22:28 *I* don't. 07:22:47 In test-driven development, each new feature begins with writing a test. This test must inevitably fail because it is written before the feature has been implemented. 07:22:50 .....wat 07:22:50 why test? just write correct code dammit 07:22:58 Some people say it's the best thing ever, though. 07:23:57 I definitely think it will help me right now, but testing before you code seems kind of senseless to me. I guess it establishes exceptional cases or boundaries or whatever they're called 07:26:10 kallisti, ARPDOT 07:26:11 the main benefit for me is a) I'm not coding for hours until my focus (and sanity) dissolves away b) I'm not testing for hours until my focus (and sanity) dissolves away 07:26:28 I would suppose it helps in ensuring test coverage if you stick to it, as well as making sure you have interfaces planned ahead. It's one of those XP things, I believe. 07:26:29 cycling between the two kind of refreshes my concentration. 07:29:03 "eXtreme Programming" always sounds like you should be typing code in while base jumping, or something. 07:29:29 yep. 07:29:43 there's a thing on facebook called "brogramming" 07:31:00 In "bronygramming", all your identifiers have My Little Pony-esque names. (Not a real thing.) 07:31:00 yes "Brogramming" is listed as one of Mark Zuckerberg's interests. 07:31:29 http://www.facebook.com/getwiththebrogram 07:32:07 I wonder if that man realizes that drinking an entire bottle of grey goose probably isn't going to help him while programming. 07:35:38 oh god: http://techrights.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/ballmer-license.png 07:35:58 this is what happens when you google image search "ballmer curve" 07:36:46 http://www.quora.com/Brogramming/How-does-a-programmer-become-a-brogrammer 07:47:10 too many Macs. 07:54:18 kallisti: Him drinking an entire bottle of grey goose may help *me* with programming, though. 07:54:22 He won't be touching the code. 07:54:54 pikhq: I find a few beers are fine. 07:56:08 kallisti: A bottle of a 40% BV solution of alcohol, however? 08:00:32 I still don't understand what brogramming is 08:01:43 pikhq: probably not. I'm not at that level of alcoholism yet. 08:01:56 my stats arn't high enough. 08:02:42 ... and I probably don't want to know, either 08:04:13 olsner: Does "frat" have any connotations to you? 08:05:43 pikhq: not really... I know it's a thing they have in the us but I'm pretty sure we don't have them here 08:05:52 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: http://haskell.org). 08:06:20 olsner: Okay, well that's not going to help, then. 08:07:11 no, not much... 08:07:26 oh well, should be heading off now anyway 08:07:44 olsner: "Bro" in recent American parlance refers to guys who wear polo shirts, drink really cheap beer extensively, work out to "attract chicks", do protein shakes to aid with the previous, party a lot, and otherwise act like a bunch of people with significant portions of their brains missing. 08:08:12 Alternately: Jersey Shore. 08:08:20 about 2h earlier than I usually get to work :> they'll think I went crazy or something 08:08:40 haven't seen jersey shore, but I have heard about it, sounds horrible all of it 08:08:57 so brogramming = jersey shore programming? 08:09:02 Approx. 08:09:21 Not *quite* the same, but the connotations are similar. 08:10:59 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 08:12:17 pikhq: I don't know, some aspects of brogramming connotate a positive image. 08:12:34 argh! google plus' browser sniffing breaks down again... they should know better than to look at the browser version to figure out what it supports 08:12:44 pikhq: like being well-rounded physically and mentally, and having fun. but otherwise it's just programmers acting "cool" 08:13:32 kallisti: Presumably you're coming into this with the word "bro" being neutral in connotation. 08:13:48 pikhq: yes. 08:14:08 "Brogramming" is going to have as much of a positive connotation as chavgramming in the UK. 08:14:27 -!- Ngevd has joined. 08:14:32 pikhq: what's wrong with bro, bro? 08:14:33 Hello! 08:14:35 (dear god don't make that a thing) 08:16:48 pikhq: a "thing"? 08:16:52 I didn't make the word "bro" a thing. 08:17:06 anyway you need to chillax, brosky. 08:17:25 I think he referred to chavgramming 08:17:28 Yeah. 08:17:34 Don't make chavgramming a thing. 08:17:50 Also, fuck chillax. 08:17:58 And not in a pleasant way. 08:18:58 hmm, I wonder what happens if I delete my google+ "profile and added features", they'll probably mess up and delete my mail too 08:19:23 olsner: uh, seriously? 08:19:27 you think it would delete gmail? 08:19:45 well, it happened to everyone who got blocked from g+, iirc 08:20:10 oh, okay 08:21:02 No, that was different 08:21:49 That was because people signed up for google+ and put their age in for the first time, and Google was like "hold on there,you can't be that young, I need to lock you out now" 08:22:45 I think that was a later issue, the first one was people who used pseudonyms in google+ and then google decided they'd done goofed 08:23:18 I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they didn't lock people out of gmail due to pseudonyms 08:24:00 I'll just avoid doing anything "weird" until I have a replacement for all google services I use :P 08:24:13 locking people out was done due to the lameness that is COPPA 08:24:37 http://support.google.com/plus/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=1350409 08:25:03 COPPA: because children don't use the Internet. 08:25:13 but no, I don't *really* think it's likely they'll delete my mail due to me disabling google+ 08:25:28 I don't think it's worth trying to migrate off of Google, personally 08:25:34 just keep backups of important data 08:26:24 (I have a mail forwarding scheme such that I get a local backup of all mail) 08:26:50 it's not so much important data - I can probably live with losing most of the mails themselves 08:27:12 I should probably keep backups of my docs 08:27:12 the thing that needs migrating is stuff like setting up a new e-mail address, figure out what's connected to the old one, etc 08:27:57 the rest I don't care about 08:28:02 ah yeah, that part is annoying 08:28:11 hence my forwarding scheme 08:28:13 it's like a giant funnel 08:28:18 it loops areound 08:28:19 *around 08:28:27 to ensure that everything goes to multiple destinations 08:28:56 anyway, off I go 08:31:55 "Some people have reported losing access to all logged-in Google services including email, calendar, docs, even Android phone features. This seems to occur when an account is suspended for supposedly-more-serious Terms of Service violations, however, people like GrrlScientist have experienced this and have no reason to believe they violated anything other than the names policy. 08:31:55 This was claimed to be a “bug” and we were told that they would fix it. Here’s what Google’s VP of Product, Bradley Horowitz, said on July 25th: [strip "no, we're not doing it"] The frequency of these incidents seems to have slowed in the last week, but some accounts in this situation have not been restored, so this is still an issue." 08:32:00 (Source: Skud's blog.) 08:32:39 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 08:34:51 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:42:34 so it turns out there is an "export all docs" button 08:42:36 fizzie: ah, ok 08:42:54 fizzie: thanks for the correction 08:43:00 at least that bit wasn't intentional 08:44:44 -!- tuubow has joined. 09:16:37 is it strange that I give my computer's female names? 09:16:49 everytime someone notices my comp name they comment on it and I have to explain. 09:17:07 I think it's similar to the practice of giving ships female names. 09:19:10 Is it strange that I pluralise word's with apostrophe's? 09:19:25 ye's 09:19:58 But so many other peopl'e do it. It only seem's natural. 09:20:37 Dont yo'u agr'ee? 09:21:12 shachaf: shush 09:21:20 I'll fuck up English if I please. 09:21:36 I'm not writing a novel, research paper, formal proposal, news article, etc... 09:22:39 I never said yo'u we're writing any novel's, research paper's, formal proposal's, new's article's, etc's 09:22:53 @google angry flower apostrophe 09:22:54 http://www.angryflower.com/aposter.html 09:22:54 Title: Bob the Angry Flower 09:25:54 shachaf: I'm just saying there's no need to make a big deal out of it. It's unecessary. Yes, I've seen that. Yes I understand English grammar. Let it rest. kthx. 09:26:33 I never said I was angry! 09:26:35 That's just the flower. 09:26:54 I never said you were angry either. 09:26:57 but GOOD ONE. 09:27:05 get it? cause he's angry. 09:27:11 and a flower. 09:27:12 rich. 09:27:20 I don't get it. 09:30:12 I prefer pluralising wordś with the letter ś. 09:30:38 Thingś like that are wonderful, as I'm sure all you peoplé will agree. 09:30:57 I used to give Apple-made computers (of which we had two: two iBooks) female names. 09:32:01 * pikhq has tended to go with Tolkein names 09:34:01 Such as Frood, Gandlaf, and such?-) 09:46:05 -!- copumpki_ has joined. 09:46:32 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:49:01 I before e except WHEN I SAY SO is the rule, right? 09:49:32 I before e except after c but not always like in science. 09:50:20 That has got to be the most pointless "rule" ever phrased about English spelling. 09:51:05 Rules? English? 09:51:34 pikhq: a deceitful naysaying rulehating fiend is not a friend of mine. 09:51:53 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:52:31 inb4 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_before_E_except_after_C#Exceptions 09:53:59 Sgeo_: English has rules, to be sure. 09:54:24 Those rules are something along the lines of "He who demands consistent orthography shall be shot". 09:54:46 pikhq: PRESCRIPTIVIST. RULES ENGLISH AM ANY NOT STRAWBREEKS. 09:55:48 kallisti: Þy claims are folly, good ſir. Beſides which, I am not ſure of what þeſe "ſtrawbreeks" of which þou ſpeak'ſt *are*. 09:56:18 English rules are just normative practices, bro. English is like... people, man. whatever people are. 09:56:53 `word 50 09:57:01 coutacherld modwed nentichfor vensigkj sumarius re byrn nitesony hiancermezineitmasteh pitearturtoen acopois cocclick mil smunthayaggin ace tatula welle mendium neal amakiyanthenizhug libtisidsagostrangroff kailicas agillum ampelveri caft impoodoblatiterdie halfatlini sus stitsolisian sholus krovs heon ins momistumirine re prostssinstatnamurac azzel tepieniquerejlastauntiong cluselfomitnda de con apartors te vomperm 09:57:03 ^^^ now all of these are English words. 09:57:50 Are they? 09:57:53 yes. 09:57:54 `cat bin/word 09:57:56 ​#!/usr/bin/perl \ $VAR1 = { \ 'qz' => { \ 'e' => 1, \ 'k' => 1, \ 'a' => 1, \ ' ' => 9, \ 'i' => 1, \ 'o' => 2 \ }, \ 'sp' => { \ 'w' => 9, \ 'r' => 3173, \ 'a' => 5192, \ 'd' => 67, 09:58:04 pikhq: NO. THAT'S SECRET. 09:58:22 `paste bin/word 09:58:25 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23162 09:58:36 So... It's a frequency table of letters and digraphs in English used to generate "words"? 09:58:41 yep 09:58:48 it's a Markov model. 09:59:11 it works surprisingly well, and will actually work better once I finish up recent improvements I've made. 09:59:13 Hmm, sure enough. 09:59:34 Yeah, Markov models are really good at creating reasonable-seeming nonsense. 09:59:51 fungot: Wouldn't you agree? 09:59:52 fizzie: bitwize that's usually only a strategy for using it to learn scheme well, have fun with whenever they suffer the same problem 10:00:03 ^style europarl 10:00:03 Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006) 10:00:07 A good 3/4ths of those seem to fit English sound-wise. 10:00:10 come on, you know you want smunthayaggin to be an actual word. 10:00:16 fungot: What is your position on the Markov model suggestion? 10:00:17 Though they don't really fit morphemically. 10:00:18 fizzie: mr president, i will mention only the most important things we can deal with it not as a restriction on the use of litigation. so i believe that the current cooperation with the countries of the european dimension and the issues they have raised are ones on which parliament has had to be created and the extra conditions demanded out of the agri-environmental budget. the community programme ' europe against cancer' progr 10:00:47 "Byrn" I can't believe is not English. 10:00:56 pikhq: the next version will have around 24 datasets and will allow you to interpolate multiple datasets together. 10:01:20 pikhq: also (hopefully) the word ending code will be fixed so that it more closely resembles the lengths of words from its dataset. 10:01:45 Oh, good, "byrn" is an English surname. 10:01:56 "Syck byrn." 10:02:19 yes with short words there's higher probability of accidentally being real English, of course. 10:02:54 Like most languages, English seems to have filled the single syllable space pretty well. 10:02:54 actually I bet that probability will go up when I up to gramage by 1. 10:03:05 s/to/the/ 10:03:29 The gramageddon. 10:03:37 Though few languages fill that space as well as the Chinese ones do. Alas. 10:03:48 so in the next version it will be the preceding 3 characters that determine the next one. 10:04:04 (in the language family, generally a syllable corresponds to a word or morpheme) 10:05:33 anglish is suprareor 10:06:01 `word 6 10:06:03 can copperia th uchente fe cougerever 10:06:08 geafixzzwe bberegputsur 10:06:08 th 10:06:26 "Copperia" must be a country. 10:06:33 That is, if it isn't I shall make it so. 10:06:42 Copperia is famous for its copper exports. 10:06:44 cougerever = lol 10:07:04 $ file busybox 10:07:04 busybox: ELF 32-bit MSB executable, MIPS, MIPS32 version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, with unknown capability 0x41000000 = 0xf676e75, with unknown capability 0x10000 = 0x70403, stripped 10:07:04 $ mips-linux-ldd busybox 10:07:04 busybox: not an ELF file. 10:07:04 "What." Okay, yes, it's statically linked, but it so is an ELF file. (mips-linux-readelf and mips-linux-objdump have no problems with it.) 10:10:52 -!- nooga has joined. 10:11:23 Holy holitude that was confusing; for the lulz I tried to run it, and it actually ran without problems. 10:11:50 Turns out someone's set this thing up so that MIPS binaries get run by /usr/bin/qemu-mips-static automagically. 10:11:55 Must be the qemu package. 10:19:39 -!- elliott has joined. 10:22:34 elliott: HI ELLIOTT HOW ARE YOU 10:22:38 GOOD MRONING 10:22:46 OR WAIT IT'S LIKE NOON OR SOMETHING? 10:22:55 I suck at non-American timezones. 10:23:17 it's actually 10:23:17 elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 10:23:23 10:23 10:23:28 ah GMT 10:23:31 morning enough 10:23:33 how. convenient. 10:23:39 that /is/ morning 10:23:43 yes indeed. 10:23:45 i woke up at 9, after having gone to bed at 2 10:23:48 and was /well-rested/ 10:23:50 wtf?? 10:23:50 insane. 10:23:57 i need 10 hours sleep at the minimum 10:24:03 how can 7 be enough 10:24:13 I find that my sleep needs rapidly fluctuate. 10:24:22 I think 8 hours is fine normally though 10:25:17 well, this is perhaps one of the stranger meals I've made. 10:26:14 good strange or bad strange 10:26:21 macaroni and cheese with a dab of worcestershire sauce, ritz crackers with a choice of barbecue sauce or raspberry honey mustard dip (where do I find these things), and a glass of grape juice. 10:26:29 strange strange? strange strange. 10:26:33 typical american diet. 10:26:36 btw 10:27:16 Worcestershire sauce is amazing. Did I mention that? 10:28:10 hmm, my attempt to bait apfelmus into answering my question has failed 10:28:26 it basically enhances the flavor of anything savory. 10:30:55 but then again I'm kind of biased in that I pretty much love every condiment ever made. 10:34:54 -!- Ngevd has joined. 10:36:44 I find the similarities between teriyaki and barbecue interesting. 10:36:52 Hello! 10:37:13 they're simultaneously cooking methods as well as the sauce used, and originate from different cultures. 10:37:47 * kallisti googled for: barbecue teriyaki 10:37:50 THEY'RE MERGING. 10:43:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite 10:43:49 weirdest condiment ever. perhaps I shall try it one day. 10:45:12 is marmite the same as vegemite, i think it is, i have had neither 10:45:21 monqy: help, i started understanding arrow notation 10:45:28 ive never tried 10:45:29 is it any good 10:47:12 monqy: i guess so??? i am reading: an frp paper 10:47:32 :o 10:47:46 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2672791/is-functional-gui-programming-possible/8082179#8082179 quality stack overflow answers 10:47:50 (tm) 10:49:08 i 10:50:03 elliott, your reputation is skyrocketing 10:50:15 Ngevd: yes 10:50:16 yes it is 10:50:16 elliott's awake? 10:50:22 no 10:50:37 elliott: Don't worry, your reputation will never change in my eyes. 10:51:01 elliott: lol wow 10:51:02 good answer 10:51:21 Sgeo_: no 10:51:39 kallisti: NOBODY BUYS SOFTWARE WRITTEN IN HASKELL, YOU DOUBLE CLICK THE .EXE AND NOTHING HAPPENS 10:51:58 elliott: I refuse to double-click things unless they're .LNKs. 10:52:21 shachaf: Do you right click -> open the others? 10:52:36 slect and return 10:52:51 elliott: No, I right-click -> create shortcut, and then double-click that. 10:52:54 What a silly question. 10:54:08 Labels 10:54:08 The simplest components are labels, defined as: 10:54:08 flabel :: GUI LabelConf () 10:54:10 flabel 10:54:14 flabble 10:54:20 quality gui (tm) 10:54:32 flable 2 was the best game 10:55:07 *flabel 10:55:26 elliott: wtf you've had an account for 9 days and you're already up with people who have been stackoverflowing for years? 10:55:27 flbl, fbl, b 10:55:43 kallisti: Not sleeping helps 10:56:22 kallisti: Not really 10:56:34 People who don't use it regularly, sure 10:56:49 If you mean the http://stackexchange.com/leagues/1/week/stackoverflow/2011-12-18 ranking, that's per-week 10:56:52 elliott: ah 10:57:04 elliott: so it like, drops from inactivity? how does that work. 10:57:18 I don't understand these arbitrary points systems. 10:57:26 kallisti: No, I just mean that if you've been using it for years, you'll only have less rep than me if you don't use it actively 10:57:26 elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 10:57:29 What 10:57:57 you apparently have 5 silver pieces and 23 copper pieces. is stackoverflow an MMO? 10:58:03 Yes. 10:58:05 @messages 10:58:05 elliott said 26s ago: Tachaf 10:58:24 http://stackoverflow.com/users/1097181/ehird?tab=badges ;; my precious loot 10:58:27 elliott: As one person in this channel would say: What 10:58:34 elliott: oh nevermind I misread the thingy on the user tab to mean total reputation. 10:58:40 @ask shachaf What 10:58:41 Consider it noted. 10:58:43 kallisti: which thingy 10:58:44 elliott: but the 3 years people have reputation in the hundreds of thousands. 10:58:49 @tell elliott Is this a question? 10:58:49 Consider it noted. 10:58:52 elliott: when you click users at the top of the page 10:58:53 @messages 10:58:53 elliott asked 12s ago: What 10:58:54 kallisti: right 10:58:55 elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 10:59:14 @messages 10:59:14 shachaf said 24s ago: Is this a question? 10:59:15 Yay I posted my first stack overflow answer 10:59:16 elliott: Anyway, I'm pretty sure telliott works better than Tachaf. 10:59:19 @ask shachaf No. 10:59:19 Consider it noted. 10:59:31 @ask elliott I knew it. 10:59:32 Consider it noted. 10:59:43 kallisti: It's actually impossible to surpass a lot of people at the top now, since the daily reputation cap hasn't been there forever 10:59:43 elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 10:59:49 And since they're not going to stop reaching it every single day 10:59:53 Weeell 11:00:00 There's no cap on rep from accepted answers and bounties 11:00:09 So I guess if you worked in a team... 11:00:13 24/7... 11:00:15 @eval Don't want lambdabot notifying me. 11:00:17 For like a year... 11:00:21 @eval I guess I'd better speak like this from now on. 11:00:24 11:00:25 @Niklas, wouldn't it still hold? I mean if last [] = [] – Magnus Kronqvist 1 11:00:26 Unknown command, try @list 11:00:28 I lol'd 11:00:28 Ngevd: Oh dear. 11:02:20 I don't strictly speaking know any programming languages 11:02:24 BUT THAT WON'T STOP ME 11:02:28 Ngevd: You definitely shouldn't avoid . 11:02:55 A page remains legible even if it doesn't work, and it improves usability for people using RTL languages. 11:03:52 @eval RTL LANGUAGES R DUMB 11:04:15 Although admittedly it doesn't seem like anyone implements it yet. 11:04:15 * shachaf sighs. 11:04:15 shachaf: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 11:04:18 @messages 11:04:19 elliott asked 5m ago: No. 11:04:31 Ngevd: But it's semantically nice and has no drawbacks for a browser that doesn't support it. 11:04:39 Ngevd: wait what you don't know any programming languages? 11:04:59 kallisti, not well enough to answer most of these questions 11:05:12 I'm conversational in Haskell and Python 11:05:12 Ngevd: i recommend you begin with the hello world language 11:05:12 Ngevd: Well, you know what they say. 11:05:16 i think thats what its called 11:05:16 When life gives you marmals... 11:05:28 * kallisti could probably answer some Perl questions. Hopefully without making any mistakes. 11:05:36 if I take time to research a little to verify what I say. 11:05:54 you type a "h" as input.. and it produces "Hello world!" as output or something 11:06:15 there are a few languyages that do that 11:06:29 theres also a case sensitive version which can be a quine 11:06:36 "a language optimized for scanning arbitrary text files, extracting information from those text files, and printing reports" 11:06:39 lol thanks SO 11:06:40 ^insensitive 11:06:56 kallisti: perl? 11:06:58 yes. 11:07:03 though they forgot to mention that it's also practical. 11:07:09 but they got the extraction and report part 11:07:11 also that it's a language. 11:07:12 Oh dear god I have reputation 11:07:15 D: 11:07:45 also "optimized" might be the wrong word. you might get the impression that it's generally going to be fast. 11:07:54 Ngevd: you are certainly well known in the hamlet of hexham 11:08:55 * elliott considers posting a better answer than Ngevd's, but decides he doesn't want to be recorded as answering an HTML question. 11:09:15 I answered an HTML question. :-( 11:09:20 Well, JavaScript + HTML. 11:09:36 And it was because someone linked to my website so I saw the question in the logs. 11:09:44 Ngevd: The reason you have reputation without answering any questions is that your reputation precedes you. 11:10:04 shachaf, I have answered one whole question! 11:10:07 Poorly 11:10:21 karma+ shachaf 11:10:24 html? 11:10:27 was it exciting 11:10:39 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 11:10:56 it was 11:12:00 11:12:04 ^^^html joke 11:12:10 D: 11:12:14 11:12:19 ;_; 11:12:20 11:12:30 ;_; 11:12:36 monqy is inside himself................. 11:12:36 11:12:37 11:12:38 grosse 11:12:44 oh no 11:12:46 oh now we're double outside monqy... help 11:12:55 or are we? 11:12:56 it's an antimatter version of monqy 11:13:02 we're in undefined monqy space 11:13:09 do you 11:13:12 know what the word "undefined" even means 11:13:14 i pfrefer defined monqy space... 11:13:57 elliott: well as it is ... where are we !?! 11:14:04 oh no oh no oh no 11:14:19 how can we close tags twice after opening once 11:14:24 you forgot the escapes..... 11:14:30 http://hackage.haskell.org/package/partial-lens i like the idea but don't like the duplication with data-lens :( 11:14:39 the browser will act like nothing is wrong ;_; 11:14:43 itidus21: you just ... unwrapped us again :( 11:14:49 were in 11:14:51 yqnom space 11:15:01 the browser is apathetic to the grammar of tags 11:15:09 it is just toying with us 11:16:24 />>/> 11:16:43 dead 11:17:53 rip 11:22:49 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 11:30:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:31:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:31:28 obs 11:31:28 Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 11:34:43 Facebook... seems to have exploded on me. 11:35:58 Try not using Facebook. 11:36:02 * elliott help 11:39:21 http://rt.com/news/patriot-missile-seized-finland-415/ "­On board the British bulk carrier Thor Liberty, Finnish customs found 69 surface-to-air Patriot missiles and 160 tons of picrite explosives, being carried under the guise of fireworks." 11:39:30 Well, new year's coming... but that's quite some fireworks. 11:41:09 Wait is Finland going to war? 11:41:22 Please go to war please? 11:41:29 With Sweden? 11:41:33 ....... 11:41:38 BAH FUCK YOU STACK OVERFLOW 11:41:40 No, they're apparently going to South Korea. 11:41:43 it limits me to 2 hyperlinks 11:41:51 because I'm new 11:41:57 Maybe they're going to war with Sweden? 11:42:01 kallisti: I like how I am making everyone do SO? 11:42:15 kallisti: But yeah, I had that problem with my first answer; someone else added it in and it netted me over 100 reputation. 11:42:20 "reported Finnish Interior Minister Päivi Räsänen, who called the incident ‘abnormal’." 11:42:45 Normally, we don't seize any explosives at all. 11:42:56 elliott, AUGH IT'S BECOME VIRULENT 11:43:13 Also: "The logistics company moving the shipment insists the arms and explosives got on board the Thor Liberty “by mistake”." 11:44:07 http://stackoverflow.com/users/1111591/kallisti 11:44:22 "See, what happened was, we had all these missiles in case of pirates, and all these fireworks, and we mixed the two up. The pirates were surprised too." 11:47:30 Also in Finnish news: there's been an EARTHQUAKE. Of magnitude 2.6 on the Richter scale. 11:47:54 elliott: you've found me. 11:47:59 Apparently it's news because some people, and not just instruments, noticed. 11:48:18 elliott: er, actually, that's not me, that's the famous documentarian. 11:48:40 Right. 11:49:11 kallisti: Wow, it's even a non-terrible answer. 11:49:14 I might even... UPVOTE It. 11:49:15 *it 11:49:21 elliott: I answered the fuck out of that question. 11:49:32 probably answered it too much. 11:49:36 Enjoy yr 11 reputation 11:49:36 Apparently it's news because some people, and not just instruments, noticed. 11:49:44 Some Finns are actually seismometers. 11:49:48 elliott: riding on the coat tails of legends. 11:49:50 kallisti: Dude, my entire philosophy is banging out gigantic walls of text in response to simple questions. 11:49:58 kallisti: In one sitting, without editing back much. 11:50:02 As soon as I see the question. 11:50:02 elliott: I think it will be effective. 11:50:09 Phantom_Hoover: Actually I'm not even sure anybody noticed, the article doesn't say. But there was a 2.9 (gasp!) quake recently, which apparently was. 11:50:26 "Magnitude: 2.0–2.9 -- Earthquake effects: Generally not felt, but recorded." 11:50:39 cool so now I can add those links 11:51:37 kallisti: No. 11:51:40 kallisti: That requires 100 reputation. 11:51:51 Easy to achieve on your first day, naturally. 11:52:12 kallisti: (Accepted answers get you +15, and downvotes are rare.) 11:52:13 elliott: oh 11:52:27 elliott: I wanted to provide link for scalar and wantarray 11:52:29 because they're cool 11:52:39 kallisti: Post in the comments linking to them, it's the same Markdown syntax. 11:52:43 A good samaritan might edit them in. 11:52:56 It might even be me (probably not, I don't want the Perl taint). 11:53:01 I almost went into the ()=... trick to enforce list context but decided it was probably within rambling threshold at that point. 11:53:02 That happened with my first answer. 11:54:04 !perl print scalar (()=(35,26234,23)) 11:54:07 3 11:54:08 so bad. 11:54:16 !perl print scalar (35,26234,23) 11:54:16 23 11:55:33 oh, you want to get the length of an arbitrary list? obviously that's just scalar (()=list_expr) 11:56:29 2 upvotes yeaaaaah 11:57:04 One of those was me. 11:57:05 @pl \(x, f'), y) -> ((x, y), first f') 11:57:06 (line 1, column 12): 11:57:06 unexpected ")" 11:57:06 expecting letter or digit, operator, ",", pattern or "->" 11:57:09 @pl \((x, f'), y) -> ((x, y), first f') 11:57:10 uncurry (uncurry ((. first) . flip . ((,) .) . (,))) 11:57:11 Nice. 11:58:27 elliott: I'm aware. Do you think I can't read or something? :P 11:58:47 * kallisti has earned a badge. 11:58:53 * kallisti pins it to his fridge. 11:58:55 so proud. 11:59:03 There was a retracted proposal about a 'list' counterpart to 'scalar' -- http://www.mail-archive.com/perl6-language%40perl.org/msg03404.html 11:59:43 I'm actually kind of surprised that there's no way to enforce void context 11:59:52 though.... I know it wouldn't make any sense to do so 12:00:46 elliott: I can participate in meta now. That sounds scary. 12:00:51 I don't think I want that. 12:00:52 Wow, the Apollo guidance computers were made of 4100 3-input NOR gates. 12:01:27 That's... it? 12:01:53 I would like to reiterate: HOW THE FUCK DID WE GET TO THE MOON 12:02:07 Oh, wait, the ones they actually used on crewed flights only had 2800. 12:02:17 elliott, NOBODY KNOWS 12:02:24 Or... DID WE? 12:02:29 Phantom_Hoover: >_< 12:02:31 We used ancient technology which has been lost in the tempest of time 12:02:39 Stop it, 60s, you're making us look like idiots. 12:02:46 What were these 'NOR gates' of the ancients? 12:02:49 We may never know. 12:02:55 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined. 12:03:04 They were shrines to the vengeful god Nor. 12:03:13 They had eleven opcodes. 12:03:24 Wait, no. 12:03:35 Eight opcodes; some had multiple functions. 12:04:32 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 12:04:39 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 .). 12:06:15 "Why doesn't Perl compile to binary files like python" 12:06:19 I lol'd 12:06:39 Answer it as sarcastically as you can 12:06:54 Ngevd: That would be a dumb idea. 12:07:09 Hence why I only have 11 reputation 12:07:31 ARGH ALL OF YOU ARE DOING THIS 12:07:48 Ngevd: You just answered a question from November. :p 12:08:05 November was THE BEST MONTH 12:08:08 * elliott upvotes it anyway. 12:08:20 Yay 12:08:28 I don't want anyone to upvote mine though, feels like cheating. 12:08:40 Phantom_Hoover: JOIN US 12:08:42 JOIIIIIN UUUUS 12:08:45 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 12:08:56 IT'S THE SEAGULLS ISN'T IT 12:11:52 They're all pod people. 12:14:58 Ngevd: hahahaha I have 21 reputation and 1 copper piece. 12:15:00 * kallisti is winning. 12:15:05 I WILL SOON HAVE ALL THE COPPER PIECES 12:15:10 kallisti, so do I 12:15:14 http://stackoverflow.com/users/1097904/taneb 12:15:17 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 12:15:32 I've also answered more questions than you 12:15:53 Kids. So funny. 12:15:55 What can you buy with the copper pieces? 12:16:06 A bronze dagger 12:16:09 Absolutely nothin'. 12:16:36 I think that place would be much more popular if you could buy some weapons and shoot other people's answers. 12:17:40 elliott: I found a glass tag expecting people to eagerly be asking questions about Glass 12:17:54 turns out it's something else. 12:17:56 shocking. 12:18:30 must. not. answer. java. questions. 12:31:43 Ngevd: this is merely an indication that my answers are of higher quality than yours. 12:37:26 brb 12:37:27 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: Goodbye). 12:41:04 kallisti: you just answered a question from april 12:41:34 Better Nate than lever. 12:41:52 fizzie: :| 12:43:16 elliott: I'm going through some uncommon tags. 12:43:20 of various interests I have. 12:43:38 kallisti: Well sure, I guess if you're more interested in the betterment of humanity than reputation... 12:43:46 lol 12:43:47 indeed. 12:44:11 fruit are awesome. 12:44:19 *fruitses 12:44:19 fruits? 12:44:28 or apparently fruitses 12:44:50 I like how being delicious is a genetic adaptation. 12:45:10 The plant is just toying with you. 12:45:23 it wants me to spread its seeds. 12:45:43 but instead we mass produced them for their delicious yield. 12:45:46 I guess that's even better. 12:46:01 They're like the chickens of the plant world. 12:46:05 I wonder if fruits are getting more delicious. 12:46:17 because we selectively breed them. maybe. 12:46:39 Obviously. 12:46:46 Have you _seen_ a wild strawberry? 12:46:50 Those things are tiny. 12:47:44 hmmm okay so there's ACC on Freenode and STATUS on Rizon 12:47:59 what are the other ways to check for authentication on IRC networks? 12:48:07 kallisti: Dude. 12:48:15 kallisti: Have you seen a wild banana. 12:48:15 I WANT ALL OF THEM OKAY. 12:48:19 elliott: yes. 12:48:21 Phantom_Hoover: (Come on bananas are way more the obvious example hre.) 12:48:22 *here 12:48:36 Very few people have seen wild bananas. 12:48:43 Wild strawberries are relatively common. 12:49:57 Wikipedia: It was considered okay behavior to simply /ignore NickServ's notices, but an operator decided to /kill NickServ and use the nickname NickServ himself, subsequently collecting all identify passwords from users and being amused by that. 12:50:02 Phantom_Hoover: The INTERNET has!!! 12:50:14 "and being amused by that" good to know. 12:50:21 * kallisti is tempted to [citation needed] 12:51:02 -!- Ngevd has joined. 12:51:41 Hello! 12:52:38 why are all nickservs not the same help IRC sucks 12:53:32 so having /actual/ secure administratorship for a bot will be difficult. 12:53:43 or, well, more difficult than I would like. 12:53:46 not impossible though. 12:58:41 kallisti: with freenode authentication is in /whois. 12:58:46 but who the fuck uses non-freenode anyway 12:59:14 plenty of people. 12:59:34 elliott: also I like nickserv's acc because it's a bit easier to check. 12:59:40 I don't have to wade through the other data 12:59:47 it just returns a status number. 13:00:35 on the other hand, I think a lot of networks show authentication in whois so that may be a good idea. 13:01:40 On freenode, you can use that cap identify-msg stuff. 13:02:45 Though I'm not entirely sure it's "identified with an account holding the current nick" or just "identified with some account". 13:03:24 elucidate me (totally incorrect usage of that word) on this "cap identify-msg" thing you speak of 13:04:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:04:14 It prefixes each message with + or - depending on whether the sending user's identified. 13:04:25 http://freenode.net/seven-for-hyperion-users.html -- they've recently changed the mechanism, though. 13:04:33 It used to be with 'capab'. 13:04:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:07:45 oh look, an irssi script, written in perl 13:07:47 how convenient 13:07:52 since my bot is perl too 13:07:56 kallisti: Got 1000 rep yet? 13:08:05 elliott: no I stopped caring 13:08:12 If it's actually just "identified with services" indicator, it might not be very useful. 13:08:13 also people keep asking tough questions. sheesh. 13:09:53 I basically just intend to keep track of people's identification status when they join channels, and occasionally when they speak. 13:10:53 actually it would probably be easier just to check identification status when needed. 13:11:10 I'm not sure if my bot library can do that. maybe with a thread?? 13:11:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:11:24 I'm not sure how well it handles asynchronous stuff. 13:11:26 @pad: If you're serious about multicore parallelism then you need to forget about Haskell and study how real parallel programs are written. I explained this in detail in my answer but it got downvoted into oblivion in under 9 hours! – Jon Harrop Apr 9 at 9:00 13:11:26 Not enough privileges 13:11:30 delicious jon harrop tears :') 13:11:40 i wonder how he sleeps at night 13:11:59 Haskell: not really doing parallelism 13:12:30 or maybe 13:12:37 Haskell: not real programs 13:12:53 Haskell: not real, all in your imagination. 13:13:26 Well it prevents the programmer from doing side effects. 13:13:33 So there's no reason the .exe that does nothing that the user won't buy even has to exist. 13:13:45 indeed 13:14:53 elliott: well you need to know if your program has errors. 13:15:04 partial functions can still produce errors even without side-effects. 13:15:30 though I guess without a main function you have no actual order of execution. 13:16:29 -!- Ngevd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:16:47 or input. 13:17:00 -!- copumpki_ has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 13:17:14 -!- copumpkin has joined. 13:19:11 -!- Ngevd has joined. 13:21:14 kallisti: A REPL has side-effects :) 13:21:15 -!- Taneb has joined. 13:22:45 -!- Taneb has quit (Client Quit). 13:24:27 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:25:11 elliott: implementation detail. like seq. :> 13:28:03 /kickban kallisti 13:29:56 though, I guess in a call-by-value language seq would be completely normal. hm 13:30:06 s/normal/unside-effectful/ 13:34:50 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:35:22 -!- sebbu has joined. 13:35:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 13:35:23 -!- sebbu has joined. 13:37:21 http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=3lTd5LpB6Ao 13:37:25 oh my god this is amazing. 13:39:52 kallisti: you know seq doesn't have side-effects, stop trolling :P 13:41:39 hmm, perhaps I will sneak a link to my question in a feature request 13:42:43 elliott: I can see how it's kind of ridiculous to say that evaluating expressions is a side-effect, however I'm not entirely convinced in this case that it isn't one in this case. 13:43:00 kallisti: no. stop. please. you're going to make yourself look like an idiot again. 13:43:10 no that's all I have to say about it. 13:43:20 yes. and that was enough. 13:44:46 perhaps what is a side-effect depends on your evaluation model. 13:46:23 consider the inverse of seq in a mostly call-by-value language. It forces its first argument to be non-strict and then returns its second argument. 13:46:32 I think that would be a side-effect. 13:46:32 thankfully, the definition of seq _does not depend on the evaluation model_ 13:46:42 haskell specifies only a non-strict /semantics/, there is not even a notion of time passing. 13:46:50 i am not discussing this further because it will just be a rehash of the previous idiocy, however. 13:47:56 -!- derdon has joined. 13:47:59 feel free to link me to the definition of seq in relation to Haskell's semantics. I'm curious. 13:48:39 I'm not going to encourage you by linking you to a document you can trivially find yourself. 13:48:57 Especially when you are practically guaranteed to just try and warp it to fit your perception of things. 13:48:59 encourage me to learn? shame on you. 13:49:05 what if I associated reputation points to the act? 13:49:12 I'll keep a tally. currently you have 0 reputation points. 13:50:48 kallisti: You can't learn if you start with preconceptions. 13:51:22 it's literally impossible to not have preconceptions. More importantly, preconceptions does not limit ones ability to learn. They're just placeholders from reasoning by intuition. 13:52:06 but, I can see you wish to continue thinking I have never once changed a preconceive notion. Cool. 13:52:07 It is impossible to learn when you hold on to preconceptions about the thing you are learning. 13:52:12 I'm going to go to sleep now. 13:52:25 Whether you find yourself unable to eliminate such preconceptions or not is not something I particularly care about. 13:53:22 Your reputation score isn't looking very promising. 13:53:32 Perhaps I'll post it online so you have incentive. 13:53:35 Good night. 13:54:13 Ooh, you used serious mode. 13:55:12 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:56:11 -!- tuubow has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:08:17 "Is there a list of hackage packages that fail to compile with this release?" "All of them is probably a good approximation." 14:34:29 -!- PiRSquaredAway has changed nick to PiRSquared17. 14:34:39 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:43:31 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:01:46 -!- FireFly has left. 15:03:32 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:05:19 hi oerjan 15:06:59 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA i mean hi 15:07:34 same. 15:08:50 "This account is a chimera of several user accounts following a stackexchange mix-up." 15:09:54 reassuring. 15:10:33 Makes one wonder whether they've been chimerified in real life, too, following a stackexchange mix-up. 15:11:12 The way you're all now doing it, I suspect tomorrow a kalliottgevd will join #esoteric. 15:12:01 hi 15:12:13 elliott, did you see that lambdabot message? 15:13:49 what's lambdabot 15:13:53 fizzie: Well, the account is still active. 15:13:57 fizzie: I wonder if they're all using it. 15:14:06 fizzie: (Its name is "Complicated see bio".) 15:15:12 They're all each other's "it's complicated". 15:15:29 Oh, I thought it was a complex marine organism. 15:17:21 oerjan: Come on, swat me for that. 15:17:48 -!- yiyus has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 15:18:04 -!- yiyus has joined. 15:21:28 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude. 15:29:20 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 15:29:50 "With words of pants stupid stuff." -- Saruman. 15:29:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:30:16 elliott, but seriously, what did you think about those screenshots? 15:42:19 They were made out of bits. 15:42:22 "Paddleball is a fun game, but, as defined here, it only plays one game. Our 15:42:22 first refinement to the game is to add a restart button that allows us to play 15:42:22 again, as show in figure 5." 15:42:27 Yessss, more Paddleball! 15:44:18 "Unfortunately sensing minimum and make peace s terminal take Thompson together." -- Saruman. 15:45:19 fizzie: What. 15:45:53 Yeah, sometimes he's not very coherent. 15:46:14 (At least when seen through Youtube's "transcribe audio" feature.) 15:46:28 elliott: "This account is a chimera of several user accounts following a stackexchange mix-up." // what account? 15:48:36 "Students... What do you want, dozens of gray matter? Yes... fifty-year-old sign, or perhaps it is a product to itself, along with the problems of the second thing that is the road to the following questions", muses Saruman. "Literature is irritating students. Citizens need this!" counters Gandalf. 15:51:52 Gregor, there seems to be a bunch 15:53:23 -!- kmc has joined. 15:59:40 Gregor: "Complicated see bio". :p 16:01:17 elliott: Can't has URL? >_> 16:01:47 Holy crap, there ARE a lot of them. 16:02:02 Gregor: Nah, there's only one. 16:02:06 It just has accounts on multiple sites. 16:02:24 Oh 16:02:25 http://meta.superuser.com/questions/3663/dark-hacking-my-account-name-got-changed-from-randolf-richardson-to-complica ;; and the main owner doesn't understand how OpenID works :P 16:02:37 Ohyeah,all the same number. 16:04:45 -!- Ngevd has joined. 16:05:16 elliott: Wow, he severely doesn't understand OpenID X_X. 16:05:22 I'm thinking of calling my next esolang Salvador, in the spirit of Piet 16:05:25 You guys should password-protect your OpenID. 16:05:27 'cuz hackers. 16:06:29 -!- derdon has joined. 16:06:59 However, did they seriously trust the email reported by OpenID? 16:07:02 'cuz that's a legit guffaw. 16:07:11 Or maybe Pollock 16:07:24 Or Jackson 16:07:43 Pollock would be a good name for an esolang. 16:07:57 It's a Piet-like language using the web-safe pallete 16:08:06 With 215 functions 16:08:08 X-D 16:09:14 Gregor: No, they didn't. 16:09:19 There was some unspecified database mixup. 16:09:35 Ah 16:09:54 Gregor: It would take some supremely bad thinking to design a login system based solely on OpenID from the ground up, and then key authentication based on the reported email rather than the OpenID itself :P 16:10:57 Indeed. 16:12:36 Hmm.. 16:13:19 I think some of these functions are getting silly 16:13:37 I have inverse hyperbolic cosecant 16:14:02 oerjan: guess who has a haskell question :D 16:15:18 I'm also making a four-letter or less short name for each function 16:15:29 That probably won't be in the final spec 16:15:36 "ACCH" 16:15:44 "PRM?" 16:15:45 "E" 16:16:50 Hmm 16:16:54 Is -1 prime? 16:18:06 it's -prime 16:18:27 Its only integer factors are 1 and itself 16:18:52 elliott: no idea 16:19:21 oerjan: MEEEEEEEEE 16:19:31 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 16:19:39 75 over 7.5 :/ 16:19:51 10? 16:19:52 oerjan: :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDdddddddddddddddddddddddddd ok so 16:20:02 say I want a function f, which can be specialised to all these types: 16:20:15 f :: (forall a. F a b) -> b 16:20:20 Ngevd: -1 is a unit, like 1, and units are not primes. 16:20:28 f :: (forall a b. F (a,b) c) -> c 16:20:35 f :: (forall a b c. F (a,(b,c)) d) -> d 16:20:35 or 16:20:39 more generally basically 16:20:54 (F x y), where x is either fully universally quantified, or a tuple of fully universally quantified variables 16:20:59 how can I do this with a typeclass :( you can't do 16:21:04 instance Foo (forall a. F a b) 16:22:15 no idea, i don't understand how universal quantification interacts with other things. 16:22:20 ^bf ,.,[.]!:D 16:22:20 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD ... 16:22:42 oerjan: sheesh :'( 16:24:56 I've only defined 71/125 commands and I've got a self-modifying language with complex numbers and trigonometry 16:25:37 And I will go now 16:25:40 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: Goodbye). 16:25:46 what about f :: (forall a b c. F ((a,b),c)) d) -> d 16:25:54 is that also included 16:26:22 er if you fix the parens yes 16:27:06 elliott: can you define data Forall t = Forall (forall x. t x) ? that might help. 16:27:08 basically f :: (forall {xs}. F a b) -> b iff a is zoopy, where "x is zoopy" is defined as: x is either an element of xs, or x = (y,z) where y and z are zoopy 16:27:16 or even newtype 16:27:20 oerjan: yep 16:27:25 newtype 16:27:55 and then you should be able to do instance Foo (Forall (F a)) 16:28:18 hmm... class Foo t where f' :: t a -> a? 16:28:47 Forall (F a) has kind * 16:28:51 er right 16:28:56 what does Foo look like, then? 16:29:08 i dunno you wrote it above 16:29:41 oerjan: er well it was just an example... 16:29:53 hmm maybe with a type family... 16:30:01 oerjan: wait, yours is the wrong way around 16:30:03 it needs to be Flip F 16:30:33 well yeah. 16:31:55 class Foo t where 16:31:56 type Out t :: * 16:31:56 f' :: t -> Out t 16:31:56 instance Foo (Forall (Flip (->) r)) where 16:31:56 type Out (Forall (Flip (->) r)) = r 16:31:56 f' (Forall (Flip f)) = f () 16:31:58 ok that works 16:32:00 (setting F = (->)) 16:32:08 now to figure out how to generalise this to allow the tuple inputs... 16:37:27 hm... 16:51:31 elliott: I was serious the whole time, pooplord. 16:53:57 don't make fun of poor zoosmell's death 16:57:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:58:16 oerjan: help, i like arrows. help, i like arrowised frp. i am become shadow of former self. 16:58:43 data ForallTree where { FABLeaf :: (forall a. f a) -> ForallTree f; FABBranch :: ForallTree (ForallTree2 f) -> ForallTree f }; newtype ForallTree2 f a = ForallTree (Curry f a); newtype Curry f a b = Curry (f (a,b)) 16:59:06 s/FAB/FAT/g, i guess 17:00:48 *newtype ForallTree2 f a = ForallTree2 (ForallTree (Curry f a)); 17:02:12 or thereabouts. 17:03:33 oerjan: heh, nice 17:18:49 i'm not sure that's right, though, the branching may be too dynamic rather than static 17:19:42 i would be more concerned that there is no way to type f _itself_ because the constructors can't be composed with it due to rank-n-nses 17:19:44 *ness 17:21:30 erm i was imagining f :: ForallTree (Flip F r) -> r 17:23:46 oerjan: yes, which isn't the type of f I wanted... 17:23:54 grmble 17:23:59 so some additional mangling has to be done to get it in a form that will accept the relevant types 17:24:31 I should note that I have rapidly convinced myself that class Unit a where unit :: a; instance Unit () where unit = (); instance (Unit a, Unit b) => Unit (a, b) where unit = (unit, unit); f :: (Unit a) => F a b -> b is equivalent :P 17:25:59 well if that's all the types you need to use 17:26:48 oerjan: well there's no point using any other type, as F is necessarily agnostic to the values it's passed (modulo seq etc.) 17:26:50 since it's function-esque 17:29:36 i would assume that would depend on what F is. for F = (->) i can see that class is enough. 17:30:15 but another F might have a different method for constructing the resulting b 17:31:25 i imagine. 17:32:06 -!- micahjohnston has joined. 17:33:12 say if you had something like newtype F a b = F ((a -> Int) -> b) 17:33:32 hm no that's too simple. 17:35:37 perhaps you really cannot make an F that requires more than just a way to construct a values. 17:37:24 oerjan: it's an arrow F 17:37:29 so function enough :P 17:37:45 hm 17:37:54 oerjan: type families are one obvious way to create a pathological F, anyway 17:38:15 well ok 17:38:25 oerjan: but constructing a value of type (forall a. F a b) becomes difficult. 17:38:28 one might even say impossible. 17:53:14 oerjan: How many swats are reserved for making fun of Norwegians? 17:54:06 FUCK SLEEP WHO NEEDS IT. 17:55:21 elliott: in that case, expect a swat team. 17:55:46 oerjan: I'm fucked :'( 17:56:04 elliott: Congratulations! Was it your first time? 17:56:07 it was only a matter of time. 17:56:20 oerjan: ^5 17:56:34 hahaha, a SWAT TEAM 17:56:37 * elliott mumbles something about oklopol and 50 pounds. 17:57:09 http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/nm7vz/what_is_lambda_calculus/c3a9gp8 17:57:15 This person is indeed no expert. 17:58:13 hahahaha 17:58:22 Phantom_Hoover: niiice 17:59:15 http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/nm7vz/what_is_lambda_calculus/c3aaa3c 17:59:21 The least forced thing ever. 18:00:00 * oerjan does some forced eye movements at that. 18:00:27 "I am curious if there is a handy name for a relationship that is neither Injective nor Surjective? I understand such a messy thing is a terrible function." 18:00:50 f(x) = x^2 18:01:01 (: R \to R) 18:01:05 coppro: no shit 18:03:48 Do physicists ever stop abusing math? (self.math) 18:03:53 Phantom_Hoover: I hate you for making me read /r/math. 18:04:26 "Note: Sorry for the text wall, this kinda became a rant." It's... two medium-size paragraphs. 18:06:45 functional programming (the kind they use for artificial intelligence) :D 18:07:20 "I don't claim to understand the terms or even what I'm about to type out, but this is the "complete lagrangian of the standard model of physics" (which I assume governs kinematics, EM, whatever): 18:07:21 http://nuclear.ucdavis.edu/~tgutierr/files/sml.pdf 18:07:21 Can you use this to formulate consciousness? Physics runs into problems with a system of bodies n > 2." 18:07:30 Phantom_Hoover: physics runs into problems with a system of bodies n > 2 18:07:54 lol 18:08:25 Phantom_Hoover: he deleted his comment 18:08:28 Augh, that Lagrangian. 18:08:30 coward! 18:08:36 cemetary: an unsolved system of bodies in physics. 18:08:38 * elliott deletes his own. 18:09:03 Phantom_Hoover: I want it on a t-shirt. 18:09:24 What'd you say? 18:09:41 Phantom_Hoover: "Wrong wrong wrong", to a first approximation. 18:16:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 18:17:17 `word 25 18:17:20 ma hilidprotelf alcestifough fwyntornellukoa istramelbilly hen vily dendent achmermegalderood ers icruchyplau mshabom mars bisloya syarkabysconcon winffeibeclatinathudos reshb renfromentekaka apallumpsnm ingerne edefle venmel lonityolcurs zooty vcllley 18:17:34 `word 25 18:17:37 waphintiapuppro erperissimpaiy moolluianeuified balastempticonieran bed sphing utsedge vessuntinerretia khong lant ig heepto bro gras woryle nazzawadatse asia ardech gle storigida gescumbougb hagolea burtoppivols edo vulphalt 18:17:52 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Da_Vinci_Code_For_Free 18:29:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:29:59 elliott: best esolang 18:31:09 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 18:33:07 45 over 5.5. I am way more dedicated to this than kallisti and Ngevd. 18:34:06 Fun fact: if you change the numbers in the first sentence, you get most of the things elliott has said to me this week. 18:36:50 Phantom_Hoover: Excuse me, I've also said that Scotland doesn't exist? 18:36:55 Q.E.Zepto? 18:42:19 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 19:09:16 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:09:32 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:16:43 elliott: Scotland was obliterated by a burst of zepto? 19:17:21 coppro: Yes. 19:17:24 coppro: Obviously. 19:17:36 Funeral services will be held last Sunday, travel by zepto. 19:17:56 I can't make it, I parked my TARDIS next Tuesday. 19:19:17 coppro: Just bring it back with a touch of the old Feather. 19:19:50 elliott: That would cause a temporal line 19:19:53 can't have those. 19:21:09 -!- tswett_ has joined. 19:21:35 Suomi koira limsa karkat vantas pohjoinen. 19:21:53 coppro: Topologically equivalent to a 4-dimensional timecube, though. 19:21:57 So it's ok. 19:22:40 elliott: No, not a timecube! 19:22:51 Those are unstable! 19:24:30 Oh, don't worry. Math is timeless, so even the unstable stays the same. 19:24:45 tswett_: That's the danger of a timecube. 19:24:55 It changes mathematics? 19:25:04 With relation to time, yes 19:35:30 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:36:00 Is this good so far? 19:36:01 zzo38: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 19:36:10 O, I read this messages already. 19:38:31 Is what good so far? 19:40:09 Sorry, I don't know. 19:41:11 I forgot. 19:42:08 I'm food. 19:42:22 ;;;000-----00000ooolll; 19:42:38 D? F? SAturanate 19:43:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:44:07 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:45:34 -!- Ngevd has joined. 19:46:35 Hello! 19:47:11 How much money does my Dungeons&Dragons character have? (no looking please) 19:47:26 700 and 20 pence 19:48:09 -!- PiRSquared17 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:48:19 Ngevd: What character encoding are you using? 19:48:39 I'm not entirely sure 19:48:42 No I mean in copper coin, silver coin, gold coin, platinum coin. Not in pence 19:48:57 The first symbol was a pound symbol, btw 19:49:09 Yes I guessed it might have been a pound symbol 19:51:02 -!- Klisz has joined. 19:53:46 -!- copumpki_ has joined. 19:53:54 "but an operator decided to /kill NickServ and use the nickname NickServ himself, subsequently collecting all identify passwords" Will that work only if you send a message to NickServ, or will it also work when using NS and PASS commands? 19:54:30 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 19:54:35 I think it would work using NS and PASS commands 19:54:44 It all goes through NickServ 19:54:48 Where did this happen 19:55:07 I don't know. Someone mentioned that in this channel 19:55:47 However it should be proper to make NS and PASS ensure it is sending to actual services only, I would think 19:56:21 How would it do that? 19:56:51 NS is, I think, done by the client? 19:57:03 No, NS and PASS are both server commands. 19:57:59 (My client doesn't know what NS is and yet it still works, so it must be a server command) 19:58:32 What's the easiest way to tell if a user is identified? 19:58:35 /whois 19:58:40 Okay 19:58:41 yikes... this guy on SO has 52 questions and 4 answers 19:58:44 Gonna test something 19:58:58 No I'm not, nevermind 20:01:47 -!- copumpki_ has changed nick to copumpkin. 20:01:47 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 20:01:47 -!- copumpkin has joined. 20:17:55 -!- nooga has joined. 20:19:01 elliott: psh I can't believe only one person has upvoted my 4 paragraph textwall since yesterday. 20:19:17 LOOK AT ALL THOSE WORDS. IT'S GOT TO BE A GOOD ANSWER. 20:25:00 I do have the disassembled codes for TrivialOW.13 virus 20:33:45 if only this improved semantic model was as convenient to work with as it is to show it's immune to several errors found in previous models 20:34:53 'NICKSERV' is, I think, the server command, officially; but maybe 'NS' is an alias? 20:35:16 I do think at least current freenode server doesn't ever let a client connection change nick to "NickServ" anyway, even if services are offline. 20:35:39 fizzie: I wasn't aware services had a comman. 20:35:42 d 20:36:26 The "/msg NickServ" always makes me feel vaguely uncomfortable, so I tend to "/quote NICKSERV" instead. (The "/foo to /quote FOO" automagic also makes me feel vaguely uncomfortable.) 20:37:07 fizzie: You should use zzo38's IRC client. No /quote required. 20:37:46 fizzie: you're just an uncomfortable guy aren't you? 20:38:12 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:38:20 hi ais523 20:38:31 hi elliott 20:38:43 congratulations on having a better sleep schedule than mine 20:38:59 you just woke up? 20:39:05 yes 20:39:09 heh 20:39:09 well, I woke up at about 7pm 20:41:25 The other thing in my IRC client, is if you use PASS then it will mask the password 20:42:01 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: http://haskell.org). 20:44:53 elliott: have the wiki styles gone wrong for you? they have for me 20:45:01 to be precise, the sidebar starts below the bottom of the content area, on every page 20:45:37 no 20:45:45 try resizing browser / flushing cache / etc ? 20:45:47 *etc.? 20:46:06 I've tried flushing cache 20:46:09 I'll resize the browser next 20:46:30 doesn't help 20:46:50 Wikipedia looks fine, although it's not surprising that it'd have been updated 20:47:03 ah, but BlogNomic wiki doesn't 20:47:17 so it's something about how Firefox 9 is interpreting old versions of Monobook 20:47:58 ais523: probably "firefox 9 with my settings" 20:48:10 elliott: possibly 20:48:21 ais523: I solved my lucky egg problem the bruteforce way 20:48:25 but the fact that it works on Wikipedia implies that Wikipedia's monobook has been changed to work around the problem 20:51:28 bleh, anyone know a good tool for diffing CSS rules? 20:51:34 diff 20:51:41 elliott: they're in a different order in the two files 20:51:59 hmm… what if I remove all newlines between { and }, then sort, then diff? 20:53:54 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 20:54:54 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:55:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:55:52 bleh, no good, diff is still not matching them up correctly 21:03:17 -!- augur has joined. 21:03:23 Man, I do not want to be someone who has to write a Pollock interpreter 21:09:01 this makes no sense 21:09:07 the relevant styles seem to be the same here and on Wikipedia 21:09:21 (that's computed styles via Firebug, so even if it's adjusted with JS the difference should show up) 21:09:35 the only difference is that there's a position:relative on Esolang but not Wikipedia; but removing it makes no difference 21:09:54 ais523: you might need to do more than remove it 21:10:05 -!- monqy has joined. 21:10:08 at least, I wouldn't bet on CSS layout code results being always-consistent like that 21:10:25 try making a local copy of the page by Ctrl+Sing and finding the CSS file and removing that rule 21:10:25 just as a sanity check, it renders fine on Epiphany 21:10:32 and load it from scratch 21:10:39 elliott: it'd have to be a with-all-dependencies local copy 21:10:49 -!- Nihilis__ has joined. 21:10:51 -!- Nihilis__ has quit (Client Quit). 21:12:03 ais523: good thing firefox saves those by default 21:12:06 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:12:13 and has since, umm, before 1.0 21:12:18 I know they exist 21:12:25 probably /netscape/ saved pages like that by default 21:12:32 even then, Wikipedia's style loading is crazy 21:12:41 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:14:30 OK, interesting: if I remove the width: on Wikipedia, it expands to fill the width as you'd expect, if I remove it on Esolang, the sidebar disappears completely 21:15:59 What's music I like? 21:17:22 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 21:17:51 elliott: aha, found the offender: it's KHTMLFixes.css 21:17:53 on Esolang 21:17:58 Ngevd: wat 21:18:02 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:18:05 ais523: firefox "khtml edition" 21:18:12 presumable cause of the problem is that Firefox is in fact not using KHTML, and that Esolang is misdetecting it 21:18:16 elliott, I can't think of any music I like 21:18:25 elliott, but I want to play AudioSurf 21:20:11 Screw this, I've got a Stranglers CD 21:20:30 Ngevd: the best music is /dev/urandom 21:21:12 nah PDF files are way better 21:21:48 my entire filesystem is a symphony. 21:24:19 I need 5 reputation in 2.5 hours. :/ 21:24:35 -!- Patashu has joined. 21:25:56 mplayer -demuxer rawvideo -rawvideo w=640:h=480:fps=30:format=rgb24 /dev/sda 21:26:05 It's the best. 21:26:16 Gregor: ...why did I never think of doing that 21:26:54 Targets (44): recode-3.6-6 enca-1.13-2 a52dec-0.7.4-5 libvpx-0.9.7.p1-1 libftdi-0.19-1 libirman-0.4.5-2 lirc-utils-1:0.9.0-8 x264-20111030-1 libmng-1.0.10-4 21:26:54 libdca-0.0.5-3 aalib-1.4rc5-8 lame-3.99.3-1 libvdpau-0.4.1-2 libasyncns-0.8-3 libogg-1.3.0-1 flac-1.2.1-3 libvorbis-1.3.2-1 libsndfile-1.0.25-1 21:26:54 json-c-0.9-1 libpulse-1.1-1 talloc-2.0.7-1 cifs-utils-4.9-3 tdb-1.2.9-1 smbclient-3.6.1-1 xvidcore-1.3.2-1 opencore-amr-0.1.2-1 21:26:54 libsamplerate-0.1.8-1 jack-0.121.3-4 cdparanoia-10.2-3 libmad-0.15.1b-5 libtheora-1.1.1-2 libcaca-0.99.beta17-1 xf86dgaproto-2.1-2 21:26:57 libxxf86dga-1.1.2-1 fribidi-0.19.2-2 libmp4v2-1.9.1-2 faac-1.28-3 faad2-2.7-2 orc-0.4.14-1 schroedinger-1.0.10-1 mpg123-1.13.4-1 libass-0.10.0-2 21:27:00 libbluray-0.2.1-1 mplayer-34426-1 21:27:02 What a dependency list >_< 21:27:08 mplayer? :) 21:27:10 Now I wonder wtf mplayer is doing with JSON... 21:27:23 Gregor: Yes. 21:27:30 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:27:33 -!- kallisti has joined. 21:27:33 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 21:27:33 -!- kallisti has joined. 21:28:21 elliott: JSON in a media player seems reasonable, as JSON in anything that might want to store metadata seems reasonable 21:28:54 The person guiding me through Doctor Who says that Series 2-4 is mostly bad. I don't want to believe him. 21:29:10 Sgeo_: Fuck him, Hartnell is tha bomb. 21:29:19 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:29:59 CSS badly needs a useragent selector 21:30:27 so the problem is, I can fix this for Firefox, but I can't think of a way to do so without simultaneously breaking it for KHTML 21:30:33 KHTML is dead 21:30:41 I'm pretty sure even Konqueror uses WebKit these days 21:30:42 well, yes 21:30:48 but if it happens to break WebKit too… 21:31:03 meh, I'll just do the Firefox-specific fix then test in Chromium 21:31:14 -!- tswett_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:31:17 * elliott would just rip out the hack 21:31:19 maybe that's what you meant 21:31:24 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 21:31:29 elliott, in the ... whatchamacalling. After 2005 21:31:48 Sgeo_: I know. Anyway, isn't that the entire Tennant years? 21:31:49 elliott: Doesn't Konqueror still use KHTML? 21:31:59 elliott, I think so 21:31:59 Here we go, I've found my Muse 21:32:17 Sgeo_: The Tennant years were the absolute highpoint of the series, once they hit their stride; far superior to Eccleston, as entertaining as he was. 21:32:33 Sgeo_: Then Moffat takes over and Matt Smith comes in and it all goes to hell. 21:32:39 Enjoy it while it lasts. 21:32:53 elliott, this person really likes Moffat 21:33:00 Sgeo_: The Tennant-Moffat episodes are the best, but Moffat is a terrible showrunner. 21:33:25 He thinks ~unexplained mystery~ after unexplained mystery is an acceptable substitute for engaging plot. 21:33:45 (I gave up on Moffat very quickly, so this is mostly second-hand knowledge, but it's backed up by more than one source.) 21:33:52 Sgeo_: Moffat did some really solid episodes in the Tennant era. 21:34:08 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:34:14 Problem is, if his episodes make up the entire series it's just bleh. 21:34:17 s/some raelly solid/the best/ 21:34:43 Blink and Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead are pretty much the series' highpoints. 21:35:06 *really 21:35:34 It's like taking a good pastry chef and having him do cake for every course of a meal. You may like cake but you'll fucking hate the chef pretty soon. 21:35:53 Sgeo_: But yeah, series 2 is spotty, but series 3 and 4 are amazing. 21:36:35 yay, fixed 21:36:43 Plug in Baby is AMAZING in AudioSurf 21:36:54 Human Nature/The Family of Blood, Blink, Utopia/The Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords (well, I liked it, anyway), ... blah blah blah, they're all good. 21:37:08 so, this is ridiculous: if margin specifies four margins, the left of which is 0, it works; if margin-left is specified as 0, it doesn't work 21:37:19 so apparently the left margin and the margin-left do different things 21:37:25 and the page layout depends on which is specified more recently 21:38:03 ais523: sounds like a bug 21:38:07 Well, you and he agree that Blink is good, at least. 21:38:07 -!- kallisti has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 21:38:17 elliott: hmm 21:38:22 I'm sure there's a Doctor Who fan somewhere who dislikes Blink. 21:38:28 Me 21:38:32 Ngevd: seriously? 21:38:36 Yep 21:38:38 why 21:38:48 OK, looks fine in Chromium, so I guess it does affect KHTML specifically 21:38:49 Is Blink the one with the Angels? 21:38:54 yes 21:39:32 While it does have some good quotes, the way the Angels worked ruined my suspension of disbelief 21:39:52 and Doctor Who /doesn't/ normally? 21:39:57 And The Empty Child was much better 21:40:00 it's Suspension of Disbelief: The Show 21:40:15 Doctor Who's premise is "Suspend your disbelief, we're going for a ride!" 21:40:37 We are literally dealing with a hand-wave mechanic'd time travel show. 21:40:43 Anyway, they're quantum or something. I think the Doctor explained it all with about 3 seconds of nonsense. 21:40:58 pikhq_, I do find that somewhat hard when space and time collapses in a nonsensical way 21:41:04 Timey-wimey ball. 21:41:15 (e.g. Pandora's Box/Big Bang or Season 6 finale) 21:41:20 21:41:32 you watched the smith series before the tennant ones? srsly? 21:42:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:42:08 I did see Blink as my first Doctor Who episode, if that helps 21:42:16 Then a few others from the Smith series 21:42:21 erm, not Smith, Tennant 21:42:25 Er, no 21:42:30 Smennant 21:42:32 Er, wait, yes 21:43:01 Ngevd, do you like Doctor Who in general? 21:43:06 (6/6) checking package integrity [############################################################] 100% 21:43:06 (6/6) checking for file conflicts [############################################################] 100% 21:43:06 error: failed to commit transaction (conflicting files) 21:43:06 filesystem: /etc/mtab exists in filesystem 21:43:07 Errors occurred, no packages were upgraded. 21:43:09 Empty Child/Doctor Dances (yes, I know not Tennant), SitL/FotD 21:43:09 errr.... 21:43:16 And then after that, just Smith, I think 21:43:34 hmm, what the web needs: some way to specify the md5 of a script/image/whatever that's included by reference 21:43:47 so that if it's already in cache, even from another site, then the cached version can just be used 21:43:58 ais523: ETag 21:44:06 I'm not surprised it exists 21:44:11 do browsers care about it? 21:44:13 or, hmm 21:44:15 if not, they need to 21:44:20 Phantom_Hoover, yes 21:44:23 ais523: ETag is a header-based solution and everything uses it nowadays 21:44:30 Ngevd, do you like Matt Smith's Doctore? 21:44:33 *Doctore 21:44:33 ais523: but it seems like what's /in/ the ETag is defined by the server 21:44:36 *Doctor 21:44:38 I... 21:44:48 Ngevd, anyway. 21:44:50 elliott: oh, that's pointless if it doesn't work cross-server 21:44:53 Phantom_Hoover, I prefer him to David Tennant, but preferred Christopher Eccleston to the both 21:45:10 Ngevd, your opinion is invalid, enjoy your /ignore?? 21:45:15 I mean, you'd do something like