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00:39:19 * elliott sends an email that pikhq will see without sending an email to pikhq.
00:42:17 <zzo38> Is it a public mailing list?
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00:59:54 <elliott> pikhq_: ENJOY HAVING YOUR EYEBALLS ACCOSTED WITH WORDS
01:01:19 <elliott> kallisti: How do I run a subcommand in Perl safely, without running into shell interpolation problems
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01:26:34 <elliott> Wow, someone asked to become admin on the wiki who ISN'T Timwi :P
01:52:57 <elliott> Vorpal: wow, skyrim depends on steam even when bought in-store?
01:54:51 <pikhq_> Huh. I thought Valve was the only group that pulled that.
02:23:44 <pikhq_> http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/11/11536/11813483.jpg XD (translit: "hajimemasite"tte? NIHONGO JŌZU translat: "Nice to meet you"? *You're good at Japanese!*)
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03:31:51 <elliott> @tell Gregor Makes me kinda nervous that glogbackup parts before glogbot joins.
03:32:51 <Gregor> elliott: glogbackup parts once glogbot joins #glogbot, which is the first one it joins.
03:32:51 <lambdabot> Gregor: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:33:12 <elliott> Gregor: OK, but people could still talk before glogbot rejoins every channel :P
03:33:14 <lambdabot> elliott said 1m 22s ago: Makes me kinda nervous that glogbackup parts before glogbot joins.
03:33:21 <Gregor> elliott: Fair 'nuff *shrugs*
03:34:41 <elliott> "Let's call the flag -Ewarn, by analogy with -Werror."
03:35:25 <Gregor> Uhhhh, is this some imaginary flag that converts /errors/ into /warnings/ (a concept which doesn't even make sense)?
03:36:09 <pikhq> It also solves the halting problem and summons bacon.
03:36:35 <elliott> Gregor: Yes. A flag that is actually being implemented in GHC :P
03:36:45 <elliott> More specifically, it turns certain kinds of type errors into warnings + runtime errors.
03:37:15 <elliott> I don't think that quote was even a joke, and it was by one of the Simons (I forget which by now), so it might even be called that :P
03:39:06 <Gregor> I just assumed GCC due to the "by analogy to -Werror"
03:39:15 <Gregor> It makes more sense in many other contexts.
03:39:26 <elliott> GHC nabs gcc's -Wall, -W and -Werror.
03:39:28 <Gregor> The only errors there are in C are "I have no clue how to compile this shit, dude"
03:39:39 <elliott> Except -Wall means "a lot of warnings" and -W means "literally every warning"
03:40:11 <elliott> Similarly it copies gcc's -On options, where -O0 does nothing, -O does most optimisations, and -O2 slows compilation down massively and doesn't help in the majority of cases.
03:40:15 <elliott> So... they shifted the numbers a bit :P
03:40:34 <elliott> Gregor: You could feasibly bypass C's type checker.
03:40:43 <zzo38> Gregor: Possibly other errors are possible in C as well, such as lack of address space for declared variables
03:41:11 <elliott> zzo38: Sounds like "I have no clue how to compile this" to me :P
03:41:16 <Gregor> elliott: But virtually any case where the type checker fails, it fails because it doesn't know how to compile it.
03:41:28 <zzo38> elliott: OK, maybe that is what it is, then.
03:41:42 <elliott> Gregor: Not really? Pointer casting, f'rinstance.
03:41:50 <elliott> Which is a looooooot of errors in C prorgams.
03:41:58 <elliott> Well, at least a fair amount :P
03:42:07 <elliott> Are there even any other type errors??
03:42:46 <Gregor> I know of no pointer cast that would give you an error (as opposed to a warning) in default GCC. I suppose int x; int y; y = *x; wouldn't compile, but it also doesn't have enough information to.
03:43:06 <Gregor> Then there's no error.
03:43:19 <pikhq> Then it "merely" hits UB.
03:43:33 <elliott> Gregor: I mean automatically.
03:43:56 <elliott> Gregor: The machine has no notion of a pointer type, soooo :P
03:44:09 <Gregor> elliott: But how do you know it wanted an /int/ * as opposed to a /char/ * or a /wtf/ *? That's the "doesn't know how to compile it" part.
03:44:22 <elliott> Gregor: Because y is an int.
03:44:29 <elliott> It's like you're not even trying!
03:44:38 <pikhq> Perhaps you want (int*)(char*) though?
03:44:44 <Gregor> But that's not so much bypassing the type checker as doing nonsense type inference :P
03:44:50 <elliott> pikhq: Well fuck you, you're compiling an invalid program, be happy it works :P
03:45:10 <elliott> Gregor: Now I want a list of gcc's errors...
03:45:22 <zzo38> I think in C, it ought to be error to use something that isn't a pointer where a pointer is required unless you have an explicit cast (possibly with some exceptions if it would help to do so)
03:45:40 <pikhq> zzo38: In C, it is.
03:45:50 <Gregor> pikhq: Mmmmm, not quite.
03:46:01 <pikhq> Well, I think except for confusing circumstances.
03:46:03 <Gregor> pikhq: int a(int *x); void foo() { a(42); }
03:46:04 <zzo38> pikhq: In GCC it is usually a warning but not an error when I do that
03:46:16 <pikhq> Most notably, I *think* using an integer literal as a pointer is a warning.
03:46:20 <elliott> Dear C: WHY DON'T YOU HAVE LAMBDAS
03:46:29 <elliott> #define TRANSFORM_RGB(expr) \
03:46:29 <elliott> x = rgba.r; rgba.r = (expr); \
03:46:29 <elliott> x = rgba.g; rgba.g = (expr); \
03:46:30 <elliott> x = rgba.b; rgba.b = (expr); \
03:46:33 <elliott> I WANT TO REPLACE THIS HORRIBLE THING
03:46:48 <Gregor> pikhq: But dereferencing an integer literal is a no-go as it doesn't know the pointer type.
03:46:57 <pikhq> elliott: https://github.com/pikhq/clambda-demo/blob/master/lambda.h
03:47:07 <elliott> Gregor: See, B just only had words.
03:47:14 <elliott> You'd read a word, obviously.
03:47:33 <zzo38> It is due to the C preprocessor having a few thing missing. Some things I made in Enhanced CWEB allow you to add your own compile-time codes
03:47:53 <elliott> pikhq: I can't tell you how INTENSELY willing I am to use this.
03:47:57 <elliott> It's giong into mcmap RIGHT NOW.
03:48:09 <zzo38> There is another programming language BLISS which has far more powerful macro capability and record types than C
03:48:22 <elliott> pikhq: What happened to town, btw (GITHUB STALKING IS BEST)
03:48:38 <pikhq> elliott: I didn't do much with it?
03:48:51 <pikhq> I've spent the past few months basically doing fuck-all on github. :P
03:49:39 <elliott> pikhq: And it mixes tabs and spaces too :'(
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03:53:46 <zzo38> The STRUCTURE command in BLISS allows you to do a lot of things; the structure can contain arbitrary commands (it does not have to contain only field declarations)
04:03:33 <zzo38> OWN X; LITERAL MARK = 4; MACRO M = MARK + %UNQUOTE MARK %; BEGIN LITERAL MARK = 5; X = M; END What will the value of X be in this program? It will be 9
04:07:44 <Gregor> int *a = alloca(sizeof(*a)); /* this works, but feels so wrong */
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04:09:32 <pikhq> It also involves like 20 preprocessor directives to use it "portably".
04:16:50 <Gregor> elliott: The fact that that the definition of a refers to a :P
04:17:02 <elliott> Gregor: Uhh, but that's a standard idiom with malloc...
04:17:11 <elliott> To avoid repeating yourself in case you e.g. change a's type.
04:17:32 <Gregor> Oh? I don't think I've seen that ... usually I've seen type a = malloc(sizeof(type));
04:17:38 <Gregor> Err, type *a of course
04:18:05 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, that's more common, but *a is fairly common too.
04:18:26 * elliott usually embds type because he finds refactoring the expression to be a more compelling example than retyping a variable.
04:18:30 <Gregor> Long story short, I'm at 2037 code bytes :P
04:18:41 <elliott> Of course I'd prefer to be able to just omit the "type " on the LHS :P
04:19:10 <elliott> Gregor: For what this time?
04:19:30 <Gregor> elliott: ... same as always?
04:19:47 <elliott> Gregor: Well, OK, you talked about doing something else at one point though :P
04:20:53 <Gregor> I considered it, couldn't think of a way to make it truly obtuse that wasn't also lame.
04:21:52 <Gregor> ALTHOUGH WE COULD DO A COLLAB
04:23:43 <elliott> Gregor: You mean the MIDI thing?
04:24:44 <elliott> Gregor: I dunno, I don't think it'd have to be very obfuscated if it produced something nice-sounding given untweaked input...
04:25:15 <elliott> But "nice" is relative, I'm sure the demoscene could synthesise semi-realistic piano and strings within IOCCC limits :P
04:25:41 <Gregor> That was the issue, I couldn't think of a way to make it obtuse.
04:25:50 <pikhq> elliott: ... If they don't already.
04:25:57 <Gregor> Also, piano: Sure. Pianos are easy. Strings: lolno.
04:25:57 <elliott> Gregor: Are we using different definitions of obtuse?
04:26:13 <elliott> I don't think obtuseness really matters if the result is impressive... the golfing makes code pretty hard to read to start with :P
04:27:19 <Gregor> Idonno, I just don't feel like the result would be very obfuscated.
04:27:32 <Gregor> Nor do I think it would be sufficiently impressive, though maybe it would be.
04:28:44 <elliott> I was thinking maybe a MOD player instead... those sound better, but that loses the synthesis element, and I dunno if the effects stuff that MOD players has are hard enough to implement that it'd be impressive :P
04:29:38 <Gregor> Idonno much about MOD.
04:29:57 <Sgeo> http://www.scp-wiki.net/clef101
04:30:52 <elliott> Gregor: All I know is it has samples and channels of notes :P
04:31:39 <elliott> Sgeo: six paragraphs in and this is the worst writing ever
04:31:51 <elliott> seven paragraphs and it's worse
04:32:03 <elliott> wow this is bad i'm not going to read it any more
04:32:34 <Gregor> elliott: That's all I know toooooo 8-D
04:32:37 <Sgeo> http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/skybluesky
04:33:42 <zzo38> Is there any MML compiler to MOD?
04:34:15 <elliott> Gregor: So there's at least hacky resampling involved (in case /dev/audio doesn't have the right Hz), modifying the tone of samples, and I think applying various effects to a sample.
04:44:23 <tswett> Accessing memory-mapped files is just as efficient as accessing ordinary memory, as long as I don't do anything that actually requires disk access. Right?
04:47:02 <elliott> tswett: Are you asking whether mmap() caches?
04:47:08 <elliott> Because, yes, your OS has disk caches.
04:47:32 * tswett replaces malloc with mmap. Save all the things.
04:47:45 <elliott> tswett: malloc is implemented with mmap for large enough allocations in all common libcs.
04:48:52 <elliott> @where+ #esoteric Right here, silly!
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04:57:47 <Sgeo> http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-1025
04:58:02 <Sgeo> elliott, read that completely, don't stop reading just because
04:58:19 <elliott> But I like stop reading just because!
05:01:52 <elliott> Sgeo: OK that was amusing.
05:26:41 <elliott> @tell kallisti By the way, (const undefined) is also strict, but doesn't evaluate its argument.
05:27:01 <elliott> @tell kallisti Proof: const undefined _|_ = undefined = _|_.
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06:38:29 <zzo38> What is the way to select a $2n$ by $2n$ matrix of booleans such that there is exactly $n$ true in each row and in each column, from all possible ones, uniformly?
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06:47:48 <tytythetyty> i am having trouble with stochastic cellular automata, and i stumbled across this link (http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=398) do you guys talk about that in here??
06:48:27 <zzo38> Ask the question; they sometimes talk about various things in here and possibly someone knows
06:48:42 <elliott_> that channel lasted uh... a few days
06:48:58 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover is still a regular here though
06:49:06 <elliott_> I can't say we get CA talk very often but when we do it tends to be lively
06:49:18 <elliott_> although it's quiet hours right now
06:49:25 <tytythetyty> my question is to design two different stochastic cellular automata:
06:49:36 <tytythetyty> 1. Design a 1D stochastic cellular automata that uses on rules involving two adjacent cells at at time that (with high probability) do the following tasks:
06:49:40 <tytythetyty> a. If the majority of cells are initially 0, the final state is all zeros. If the majority of cells is initial 1, the final state is 1.
06:49:45 <tytythetyty> b. Starting with all cells at 0, reach a final state in which one cell is a 1 and the rest are 2.
06:50:17 <elliott_> this isn't homework, is it? :p
06:51:11 <elliott_> oklopol works in CA, although you may find his answers rather unwantedly vague for a question he considers too trivial :P
06:51:37 <elliott_> and I don't think he's here right now
06:51:45 <tytythetyty> lol, that is typically the case for IRC channels
06:52:10 <elliott_> not us! we're helpful and cuddly and nice. well... occasionally
06:52:47 <elliott_> not personally, but there are like three people off the top of my head who might be able to help who aren't here right now :P
06:53:31 <elliott_> ask monqy; you probably won't get an answer but the non-answer might be entertaining
06:53:57 <tytythetyty> wouldn't he just see this?? how should i ask??
06:54:20 <elliott_> he responds by sending "hi"s in morse code
06:55:27 <Jafet> @google majority problem
06:55:29 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority_problem_(cellular_automaton)
06:55:29 <lambdabot> Title: Majority problem (cellular automaton) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
06:56:47 <monqy> I don't know enough about cellular automata
06:59:53 <zzo38> Do you know how I could figure out the answer to my question?
07:01:01 <monqy> ask someone who knows and is willing and able to answer appropriately
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07:08:52 <Sgeo> elliott_, update
07:44:25 <zzo38> I think I might have figured out what contramonads and contracomonads is supposed to be: contrareturn :: (a -> m ()) -> m a; contrajoin :: m (m a) -> m (a -> m ()); contraextract :: w a -> a -> w (); contraduplicate :: w (a -> w ()) -> w (w a); I don't know how good this is, though. Maybe I made a few mistakes?
08:10:31 <olsner> elliott_: yes, there's a setting for it
08:12:34 <olsner> elliott_: :help swapfile
08:35:26 <Sgeo> http://www.scp-wiki.net/sandrewswann-s-proposal
08:36:08 <zzo38> Does "But your thoughts are nothing except hallucination!" have anything to do with "greedy reductionism"?
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08:53:59 <Slereah> I wonder what research on cellular automatons look like
08:54:17 <Slereah> How much is math and how much is just trying stuff on it
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09:28:09 <lambdabot> kallisti: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
09:30:46 <kallisti> elliott_: is how you prevent Perl from interpolating in a shell command
09:31:06 <kallisti> if you're using system or whatever else you would just pass a single quoted string obviously.
09:33:35 <kallisti> > (const undefined undefined) `seq` "hi"
09:36:22 <kallisti> elliott_: similarly, using single quotes as a delimiter for any other interpolating quoke-like operator (except for qq, which always interpolates) will turn off interpolation
09:37:29 <oklopol> Slereah: there is a lot of bullshit being done with cellular automata, which is why we're not taken very seriously
09:37:42 <kallisti> s'blah'blah', m'blah', qr'blah'
09:37:51 <kallisti> ...I... don't remember if qw interpolations.
09:38:16 <kallisti> !perl my ($x,$y,$z) = 1..3; print qw($x $y $z)
09:38:21 <Jafet> oklopol: clearly you should work for a prestigious research group like Wolfram
09:38:54 <Jafet> I hear they get great press coverage
09:39:35 <oklopol> actually wolfram invented one of the most important concepts of CA on which i too work every day
09:39:43 <oklopol> well he didn't actually define it
09:40:04 <oklopol> but still, he had quite an influence there
09:40:42 <oklopol> or maybe he actually gave a definition, but you know for the sake of this story.
09:40:59 <oklopol> at least he doesn't have any actual results
09:41:39 <oklopol> Slereah: anyhow, searching for counterexamples is, as in any branch of math, rather ad hoc
09:42:54 <oklopol> otherwise, we use measure theory, compactness arguments, symbolic dynamics and ergodic theory on a daily basis. but any sort of deep results are needed rarely.
09:44:54 <oklopol> for instance, i've needed a point whose ergodic fibre is the uniform bernoulli measure a few times when studying the besicovitch space, such a point is not that easy to construct, but it follows from ergodic theory that pretty much all points have this property
09:46:48 <oklopol> symbolic dynamics is really where most of the math happens, so if CA wasn't so easy to write, i'd always talk about endomorphisms of the shift just to keep the CA people out
09:47:39 <oklopol> there was this guy in a conference who said he's a computer scientiest but also does a lot of math. he said he's working on cellular automata, and said that HE HAD HEARD THAT YOU CAN GIVE A TOPOLOGY TO THE FULL SHIFT
09:47:43 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
09:48:30 <oklopol> kallisti: you can't do anything with CA without the cantor topology on the space
09:48:54 <kallisti> see I thought you were implying it was impossible or something which... sounded unlikely to me.
09:49:23 <oklopol> he studied something like gliders in elementary CA
09:49:29 <oklopol> what the fuck kind of research is that
09:50:10 <Jafet> I guess that's the non-mathematical side of CA research
09:51:09 <oklopol> Slereah: if you want links to the good kind of research, i can show some good representatives of the techniques
09:51:39 <oklopol> if you want to know more about the bad kind, you could always read nkos
09:53:42 <kallisti> > sum . map (\(n,x) -> 2*x / 3^n ) $ zip (cycle [0,1]) [1..]
09:55:01 <oklopol> this is a pretty good representative: http://www2.math.umd.edu/~mboyle/papers/automata20oct98.pdf
09:55:42 <kallisti> I wonder how one would convert points in a cantor space to real numbers in Haskell. :>
09:59:59 <oklopol> tytythetyty: that's an easy consequence of http://www.cs.bu.edu/~gacs/papers/long-ca-ms.pdf
10:00:21 <oklopol> sorry, i didn't read any log
10:01:34 <kallisti> lol fault tolerant cellular automata
10:02:10 <Jafet> CAs can be used to model networks
10:02:19 <Jafet> So yes, you might ask whether they're fault tolerant
10:02:49 <oklopol> tytythetyty: but apart from being a consequence of that, stochastic automata are very hard to work with, and i don't know if anyone but gacs has really ever succeeded
10:03:42 <oklopol> i think if i told someone at work that i just linked gacs to some random guy on irc to read, they would punch me in the face
10:04:06 <oklopol> see, apart from gacs, only one person has ever managed to read all of that
10:04:35 <tytythetyty> i was gonna ask if there is a specific section that is applicable??
10:04:38 <oklopol> why did you ask your question in the first place?
10:05:20 <kallisti> "So there are as many points in the Cantor set as there are in [0, 1], and the Cantor set is uncountable "
10:05:23 <oklopol> well you probably need only a part of the construction. i can link you the reader's guide
10:05:30 <tytythetyty> i am doing some work in a Synthetic Biology seminar
10:05:44 <oklopol> http://www.cs.bu.edu/~gacs/papers/long-ca-ms.pdf
10:07:09 <oklopol> well no but i mean did they know what they were asking... of course if you just want to have good approximations, you can just try stuff out
10:07:58 <oklopol> gacs' automaton, afaiu, works with any probability, and simulates any CA you like reliably with high probability
10:08:39 <kallisti> synth bio... is that similar to mathematical biology?
10:08:53 <oklopol> i should ask what the exact results are at the university, i'm more into symbolic dynamics myself
10:09:07 <oklopol> so i don't really wank to gacs' paper unlike most CA ppl
10:09:42 <oklopol> since it solved like every problem ever
10:10:06 <tytythetyty> math bio is more modeling bio systems with math, synth bio is more engineering genetic pathways
10:10:13 <oklopol> well incidentally it didn't solve the problem of finding a uniquely ergodic CA which my colleague did this week, awesome right
10:10:47 <tytythetyty> i think so :P not sure what a uniquely ergodic CA is
10:17:24 <kallisti> tytythetyty: wow, I didn't realize how far we've come with genetic engineering.
10:17:30 * kallisti is reading about gene networks.
10:18:51 <tytythetyty> kallisti: if you have access to this somehow (i.e. an academic proxy), or an actual subscription, this is a good overview
10:18:52 <tytythetyty> http://www.sciencemag.org/site/special/syntheticbio/
10:19:27 <kallisti> well, hmmm, actually I may be able to.
10:21:18 <oklopol> tytythetyty: uniquely ergodic means there's only one dynamics-invariant measure for your dynamical system (the dynamics being the CA). this measure is then automatically ergodic.
10:21:26 <tytythetyty> kallisti: this is interesting too, this is the undergraudate synth bio team at my school, who recently won the international undergrad competition (http://2011.igem.org/Team:Washington)
10:21:46 <oklopol> it means that in every column, the density of some symbol 0 always gets bigger and bigger
10:23:36 <oklopol> but umm i applied for this grant and they said they'd notify recipients by end of march. i heard rumors that i got it but there's another ville who applied and now no one just knows anything. except that i wasn't notified, so i probably didn't get it. well, today, i got an email that says something like dear recipient, please fucking register for our party already.
10:24:35 <oklopol> and i'm confused, did they just send that to everyone who applied and filter out non-recipients by addressing it to recipients (non-recipients have not been notified)
10:25:38 <oklopol> i should probably go talk to someone at the university... we already changed where i'm getting my next year's funding based on me not getting the grant :D
10:25:52 <oklopol> erm i mean my whole 4 year plan
10:27:15 <Jafet> Go to the party and make so many friends that they can't kick you out
10:28:17 <lambdabot> forall a i. (Num i, Num a) => (Dif Expr -> Dif a) -> i
10:29:34 <tytythetyty> i had a microsoft interview today, didn't go as well as it should have
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10:37:42 <tytythetyty> kallisti and oklopol: good talking to you guys! thanks for the help
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12:03:57 <kallisti> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystical_Ninja_Starring_Goemon
12:04:01 <kallisti> has anyone else played this game?
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12:33:10 <kallisti> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystical_Ninja_Starring_Goemon
12:34:04 <ais523> (I /have/ played a very few N64 games on other people's N64s, but a small selection)
12:34:53 <kallisti> some weird Japanese game I played as a kid. I just rediscovered it and my nostalgia glands kicked in.
12:34:57 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: wow, skyrim depends on steam even when bought in-store? <-- yes
12:35:33 <kallisti> "A cellular automaton is said to be reversible if for every current configuration of the cellular automaton there is exactly one past configuration (preimage)."
12:35:49 <kallisti> psh, come on. you can totally non-deterministically reverse to multiple past images.
12:35:50 <ais523> elliott_: I'm surprised that you're surprised at that; it's become more and more common recently
12:35:55 <ais523> I'm upset by it, but not surprised
12:36:12 <kallisti> what's wrong with requiring Steam? it's free right?
12:36:40 <ais523> kallisti: assumes you're going to have a network connection when you play the game
12:36:47 <ais523> this is almost always not the case for me, I typically play games offline
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12:37:33 <kallisti> I was under the impression that Steam had an offline mode as well.
12:37:52 * kallisti doesn't actually play PC video games often.
12:38:20 <kallisti> but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis.
12:38:30 <Jafet> Only pirates, criminals and communists play offline
12:38:55 <Jafet> And people who might not live in the first world, but they're mostly pirates, criminals and communists anyway
12:39:09 <ais523> bleh, I prefer "anarchists, lunatics, and terrorists"
12:39:20 <fizzie> Steam has an "offline mode" if you check the "save login details" box, or something like that.
12:39:37 <ais523> but you'd still need an Internet connection to install the game
12:39:58 <fizzie> Yes, well, it's a Internet-based delivery system, after all. But not when you play it.
12:39:58 <ais523> it used to be that you could go to a shop, buy a game, take it home, and install it on a non-networked computer
12:40:15 <ais523> and the only DRM would be requiring the disk to stay in the drive, together with measures to make the disk harder to copy
12:41:01 <kallisti> ais523: it also used to be that there was this thing called "dial-up"
12:41:04 <ais523> meanwhile, "Scaffolding" seems like an interesting name for an esolang
12:41:11 <ais523> kallisti: it still exists, believe it or not
12:41:35 <ais523> at least one ISP gave free dial-up internet access to Egypt when the government cut off all the ISPs
12:41:35 <kallisti> it much the same way that floppy drives still exist.
12:41:45 <ais523> on the basis that they had all this dial-up capacity that was hardly being used
12:41:50 <ais523> kallisti: I actually have a USB floppy drive
12:42:30 <kallisti> are you a digital archeologist?
12:42:31 <fizzie> At one point in time multiple laptops came out bundled with USB floppy drives.
12:42:37 <kallisti> unearthing ancient tombs filled with floppy disks?
12:42:49 <ais523> kallisti: because I used to back things up to floppy disks, back before CD burners were common
12:43:24 <ais523> also, because floppy disk is quite a convenient way to quickly transfer files from one computer to another; it's pretty much as fast as doing it via USB stick, just with a lower capacity
12:44:09 <kallisti> where I can put up to 5 GBs of information onto a server probably hundreds of miles away.
12:44:17 <kallisti> and then log into that server on another computer
12:44:41 <kallisti> I guess it's not as fast as a floppy
12:44:48 <kallisti> when you're like, physically next to both computers
12:45:09 <ais523> why would you send data hundreds of miles to transfer it across the room?
12:45:11 <fizzie> According to Wikipedia, "the average sequential read speed is 30–70 kB/s".
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12:45:49 <ais523> if both computers are on the same network, I'd just use that network to send it
12:46:03 <kallisti> ais523: it's okay it's traveling at light speed.
12:46:18 <ais523> the only time bouncing off an external server would make sense for a same-room transfer would be if there was some sort of firewall between them
12:46:45 <kallisti> ais523: well I'm referring to Dropbox. if you have it installed on both computers it's even easier.
12:46:50 <kallisti> but it's also possible to login from any computer.
12:47:05 <ais523> (extreme example: the wireless connection here in my office is outside the department's firewall, the wired connection is inside, so I'm careful not to use both at once; and the wired connection is really heavily monitored, to the extent that Chrome refuses to access Google, because I think it's MITMing the https)
12:47:10 <oerjan> that's ridiculous, i demand heavy speed!
12:47:23 <fizzie> We used to use MageLink for transferring files between the computers at the computer classroom at school. It's the spiffiest-looking IPX file transfer thing there is.
12:47:38 <ais523> haha, now I remember XPDT
12:47:48 <fizzie> Sadly an image search for 'MageLink' is not being very helpful.
12:48:14 <ais523> it seems that none of the file-transfer stuff that comes with Windows allows transferring over a serial link from Windows 95 to Windows XP, or the other way round
12:48:14 <ais523> so I wrote my own program to do that
12:48:54 <fizzie> Do they still bundle a LapLink-like thing in modern Windowses? I suppose not.
12:49:24 <fizzie> The "null-printer" cable, the silliest name.
12:49:54 <fizzie> (By analogy with null modem cables.)
12:53:21 <fizzie> Debian's installation manual has a PLIP-based installation method described.
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12:56:33 <fizzie> "Windows Vista drops support for the Direct cable connection feature [4] as ethernet, Wi-Fi and Bluetooth have become ubiquitous on current generation computers. To transfer files and settings, Windows Vista includes Windows Easy Transfer, which uses a proprietary USB-to-USB bridge cable known as the Easy Transfer Cable." <- right, they've given it up.
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13:02:36 <kallisti> On Talk:Afterparty: This sure doesn't answer anything. Also, it's "after party", not one word. It's also a lame concept. (Wow, I wanted to go on a pro-Communist rant there, but stopped.) More needs to be written, otherwise, it just seems like a myth of some sort. Besides (stopping myself again from going totally anti-suburbs here). Apple8800 (talk) 17:26, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
13:03:43 <kallisti> fucking capitalists and their afterparties (one word)
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13:36:28 <Vorpal> <ais523> also, because floppy disk is quite a convenient way to quickly transfer files from one computer to another; it's pretty much as fast as doing it via USB stick, just with a lower capacity <-- not really, floppies are really slow
13:36:53 <ais523> fast enough when you're only transferring a few tens of kilobytes, which is typical
13:37:38 <Vorpal> <ais523> kallisti: I actually have a USB floppy drive <-- I have two of them I think. One pure USB floppy drive and one that doubles as a "ultrabay-for-old-dell floppy device" and USB one
13:38:06 <Vorpal> ais523: Hm I seldom transfer less than a mb or so
13:38:21 <Vorpal> ais523: and quite often something like 10 GB
13:38:30 <ais523> you can't fit 10 GB on a floppy
13:38:47 <ais523> last time I needed to transfer that sort of data, I put the two computers physically next to each other and connected them with an Ethernet crossover cable
13:38:52 <Vorpal> I used to use ethernet over firewire back when my desktop only had 100 mbit connection. Because firewire allowed 400 mbit
13:38:52 <ais523> *that sort of amount of data
13:39:15 <Vorpal> now I have gbit ethernet on both my desktop and laptop
13:39:24 <Vorpal> so generally the disk speed in the laptop is the bottleneck
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13:41:18 <Vorpal> hm PSU at the bottom seems to be getting more and more popular in high end chassis these days.
13:41:29 <Vorpal> what is actually the point of PSU at the bottom
13:42:16 <Vorpal> my computer has that, but it just messes up with the cables as far as I'm concerned (since the PSU uses flat cables with connectors on the side of the cable. And it is designed for mounting at the top.
13:42:54 <Vorpal> ais523: maybe you would know what the advantages of PSU at the bottom of the computer case is?
13:42:59 <ais523> Vorpal: it's so that when YouTube upgrade their video service, it still works if you turn the entire computer case upside-down
13:43:08 <ais523> which gives even better performance than just inverting the monitor
13:43:26 <Vorpal> inverting monitor? I don't get the joke.
13:43:42 <ais523> it was YouTube's April Fools thing this year (or maybe last year?)
13:43:50 <ais523> where they turned the entire site layout upside-down, also the videos
13:43:59 <Vorpal> ais523: but seriously, any idea?
13:44:04 <ais523> on the basis that they'd discovered that videos looked better if you turned the monitor upside-down
13:44:19 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if it was something to do with cooling, but I don't see how it would help offhand
13:47:53 <ais523> 1.1.1 The droll business is, whether you be convinced active it, the cares you should get are each familiar meaning! How does it effort? Besides solely, individual moves any earful most you, possibly on-line or conceivably eve via any scrap send that you tossed in the crank without eve trigger-happy it up.
13:49:28 <fungot> fizzie: ' cheers,' said lu-tze.
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13:50:28 <fungot> ais523: " no we ain't," said esk. " granny always says that to women, for the arms, two twigs.
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13:50:51 <HackEgo> eszykkakemed obatleue raieffenisteinges paghters ac gan roleyum appard lvatoulphonicae hendfelletharbrogg ratereur bee tocitz bratous aeurrosly pred pic sten reanclan tlnhek bie un dodus blertrigentmousalgilemanatimend ro
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13:52:16 <kallisti> huh, for some reason youtube is saying "missing plugin" for every video.
13:52:34 <ais523> kallisti: perhaps you don't have a Flash plugin?
13:52:46 <ais523> "bee" is a real word, out of that list
13:52:53 <kallisti> I just restarted after some updates though.
13:53:09 <ais523> and quite a few of them sound like they could be real words
13:53:11 <kallisti> ais523: it happens. especially with short words. only so many possibilities in a markov model.
13:53:22 <HackEgo> fuermarabev as gcommenfer dumallyley wychafr mam zat tb tuproassitara man apitenins jurg autory cler hydrouzhdu aflutz flits ine boni met soirodestsovegeble bolia formagged lopui ch
13:54:16 <ais523> I've seen people seriously attempt to use "boni" as the plural of "bonus"
13:54:22 <ais523> "as" is also a word, as is "man"
13:54:32 <fizzie> "pic" and "pred" out of that first list were also rather common abbreviations.
13:54:36 <ais523> actually, "formagged" is possibly the best nonword there
13:55:14 <oerjan> ais523: at least boni is correct latin, i think
13:55:33 <oerjan> unlike some other examples
13:55:59 <oerjan> formagged obviously means turned into cheese
13:57:05 <HackEgo> monsumizehutand senselees atticheler jnaal tans ber ozamoloupne dovolowx hici unthiries subs auroo zu pribacc obikanba vity iscu lammenleres ken meduratctrae wd troasakic venderpugaryszus alierectracist mesi bouraps bbizosinizaria fandombori obed uienyonoseranottinscrenzy wander rheetess syraibia te tro ruardentiminesta hus sesined thl metion sch brica inuce howmrech narremietty baarimptinfon bnue boletadvaligny cluvra kancr
13:57:18 <kallisti> monsumizehutand -- ancient Aztech ruler
13:57:56 <fizzie> What a senselees list of words.
13:58:43 <fizzie> Is an 'alierectracist' a person who won't submit to being probed by extraterrestials, or what?
14:01:06 <itidus21> err-gah-nah-ee-doh-noh-ropey-dee-ch-L
14:01:47 * kallisti has gotten the hang of pronouncing these things.
14:01:56 <kallisti> a little creative discretion is allowed
14:02:09 <itidus21> in english you must remember that pronunciation does not follow from spelling :P
14:02:10 <kallisti> as it's "pseudoEnglish" in nature
14:02:19 <kallisti> which already has a wide variety of different ways to pronounce combinations of letters
14:02:49 <kallisti> itidus21: no it does, it's just based on a wide variety of linguistic influenced
14:03:20 <itidus21> it seems to me like it simply borrows several pronunciation systems
14:03:45 <kallisti> everything is "borrowed" and slightly reinvented in natural language
14:05:12 <fizzie> Speech synthesis thingies often have (in addition to a large pronunciation dictionary) some sort of a rule-based device to generate plausible phonemes for OOV words.
14:05:22 <itidus21> perhaps the idea of english is to acquire the shibbaleths of their eneies
14:05:58 <kallisti> music, art, religions, holidays, sports, mythologies
14:06:17 <itidus21> someones probably already done a phd on that possibility i suggested and found it's a dead-end
14:06:20 <fizzie> echo 'monsumizehutand senselees ... cluvra kancr' | festival --tts # the best babble ever.
14:06:23 <kallisti> if you look at all of these things you'll see a (mostly) linear progression of linear through history.
14:06:40 <HackEgo> bash: festival: command not found
14:06:55 <fizzie> It's so fast I can't make anything out of it, and I don't quite recall how to control speaking speed.
14:07:22 <HackEgo> parne euwessoly coms coaulanquicolve tra
14:07:25 <kallisti> yes a linear progression of linear.
14:07:36 <kallisti> bound to find something interesting.
14:07:48 <fizzie> Sometimes it heuristicizes into pronouncing things as lettersims; like "sch" and "wd" it does like that.
14:08:30 <fizzie> The prosody for that "sentence" is... somewhat arbitrary too.
14:08:57 <HackEgo> imerapposan ccyptyrs strcd plitaspet plation cxlere decocs vie chya schth sap cont eldenernefl chron diss ophyphofe symo imbee hoyoj dro einee dion eouciircloromplam wehenss remed nifteng jeeppertia sa sch dimely
14:09:14 <kallisti> strcd sounds like a string.h function
14:09:14 <fizzie> There's a short break between uienyonoseranottinscrenzy and wander, like a comma, for some reason.
14:11:05 <kallisti> eldenernefl - el-den-nur-neh-ful
14:11:16 <kallisti> fizzie: unfortunately I believe googles data contains roman numerals
14:11:29 <itidus21> my pseudo-intelligence leads me to say, ("ais523") = "523". ("523") = '5', '2', '3'. ('5') = 5. ('2') = 2. ('3') = 3. 5+2+3 = 10
14:11:29 <kallisti> which sometimes leads to ridiculous things like triple i's
14:11:40 <HackEgo> tris bayions au minis tolotti ital coneu via tchliplanosleociot exillesta
14:12:19 <fizzie> Festival pronounces eldenernefl with pretty much a silent "den"; el-ner-neh-ful.
14:12:33 <itidus21> i quite like tchliplanosleociot
14:12:59 <itidus21> as for exillesta... thats just a kick ass word
14:12:59 <kallisti> itidus21: it's squishy in my mouth
14:13:11 <fizzie> In fact, I can't hear any difference between elnernefl and eldenernefl. Maybe the latter is just archaic spelling for the former?
14:15:13 <fizzie> And I suppose quite a few other languages too.
14:15:30 <fizzie> Japanese and Swedish, at least.
14:15:37 <oklopol> yay i got 23000 euros today
14:15:47 <fizzie> Don't spend it all at once now.
14:16:13 <kallisti> oklopol: you have to like spend it a certain way don't you
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14:17:14 <kallisti> oklopol: you should buy a nice TV and a PS3 and play Demons' Souls
14:17:27 <fizzie> And maybe some food too.
14:17:37 <fizzie> If there's any money left after the essentials.
14:17:44 <fizzie> Like those mentioned above.
14:17:45 <ais523> oklopol: my grant comes more gradually
14:17:46 <kallisti> eh 23000 euros is plenty for food. poor American white trash could live off of that for a year at least.
14:17:54 <ais523> I just look at my bank account and find that there's more money in there than I remember
14:18:09 <oklopol> ais523: mine too, probably. i'm just polishing the facts a bit.
14:18:25 <oklopol> i have to live off it for a year. it's actually just my normal salary.
14:18:35 <fizzie> My grant just somehow goes into some (rather large, I think maybe 80% or so?) percentage of my regular monthly salary.
14:18:38 <oklopol> perhaps even slightly less since i just got a raise.
14:18:40 <fizzie> I don't really know the details.
14:18:55 <oklopol> it's from väisälä, you may know it
14:19:01 <kallisti> oklopol: you could probably get like, what, 92 high-class escorts (read: prostitutes)?
14:19:14 <oklopol> i don't know where to get those in finland
14:19:28 <fizzie> Also the rest of the paycheck comes from some place, but I don't know where. Maybe it's the... department? I don't know, the bureaucracy is confusing.
14:19:51 <ais523> kallisti: I'm amused that you know the price that accurately
14:19:55 <kallisti> all of you guys have grants? weird.
14:20:13 <ais523> fizzie: my grant and paycheck are added separately
14:20:18 <oklopol> my paycheck currently comes from the "project" of my supervisor (in math, project just means... nothing)
14:20:18 <kallisti> ais523: well it was an estimate.
14:20:19 <itidus21> i don't have an income. i get 'supported' by my family
14:20:25 <ais523> amusingly, the paycheck has many times more bureaucracy
14:20:31 <itidus21> not to complain. i do nothing to deserve an income
14:20:43 <ais523> itidus21: that was the case for me before I got a job, too
14:20:52 <ais523> and I imagine it's the case for pretty much everyone too young to have a job
14:21:24 * kallisti is currently supported by his family /and/ making money.
14:21:25 <itidus21> im not on a dole either.. and im relatively happy really
14:21:28 <oklopol> kallisti: up to now, i just had a paycheck, but my supervisor asked me to apply for a grant since he ran out of money for next year because he desperately needed to fish a good student for himself.
14:21:33 <kallisti> at least for now. I intend to move out sometime next year.
14:22:08 <oklopol> since the student might have gone with a different professor if he'd waited.
14:22:15 <itidus21> i chat with a lot of people more intelligent than me
14:22:36 <itidus21> it's not good for my relative sense of intelligence :D
14:22:52 <ais523> itidus21: I think most people do, actually; people tend to gravitate towards people with similar levels of intelligence
14:22:56 <fizzie> ais523: Well... I have a regular salary selected from our salary tables, but I have this four-year "Doctoral Programme" position from http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/hecse/ too, so that money gets somehow funneled in as a "funding source" into whatever percentage of my salary it happens to cover, and the department makes up for the difference from some other project/funding/whatever.
14:23:02 <ais523> and thus will tend to meet people more intelligent than themselves, no matter how intelligent they are
14:23:08 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, how complex
14:23:22 * kallisti makes terrible web apps for a living.
14:23:24 <itidus21> i gravitated towards #esoteric
14:23:27 <ais523> (exception: the most intelligent few people in the world)
14:23:52 <kallisti> itidus21: I'm certainly not as intelligent as most people on this channel, but I still consider myself intelligent. do you know why?
14:24:05 <ais523> fizzie: it's much simpler for me; I have a 75% part-time PhD (which I'm being funded by the department to work on, at the suggestion of my supervisor), and am paid directly for a 25% part time teaching job
14:24:29 <itidus21> kallisti: if i had to judge, my question would be, do you realize there are inherent contradictions to such statements? :D
14:24:31 <kallisti> I've considered going getting a Phd at some point, but... I don't know if it's worth it.
14:25:17 <itidus21> taking oneself too seriously leads to a holistic decrease in intelligence
14:25:35 * kallisti takes everything SERIOUSLY AAAAAAH
14:26:35 <itidus21> i mean... eh.. nevermind.. i need to be in another mood for that silly topic of mine
14:26:43 <fizzie> Also Condor, this "let's use our idle desktops as a computing grid" thingie, has a confusing -help for some commands:
14:26:44 <kallisti> ais523: oklopol: fizzie: the problem with me getting a Ph.D in Computer Science is that I don't really think I will be very /good/ at research.
14:26:44 <fizzie> $ condor_hold -help |& grep addr
14:26:44 <fizzie> -addr <ip:port> Connect directly to the given "sinful string"
14:26:48 <kallisti> or pretending that I'm researching.
14:27:19 <fizzie> What makes an "ip:port" sinful is unclear to me. Maybe it refers to struct sin_addr.
14:27:21 <ais523> hmm, that could be a problem
14:27:33 <ais523> it helps to have an obvious thing to be working on already
14:27:38 <oklopol> i thought i might just be a good student and a horrible researcher, but this seems to be going well
14:27:40 <ais523> like the hardware compiler, in my case
14:27:44 <oklopol> i have something like 50 theorems now
14:27:56 <kallisti> ais523: I work on side projects sure, but nothing that's groundbreaking
14:28:02 <ais523> meanwhile, I have 3 papers, which contain an average of less than one theorem each
14:28:08 <kallisti> I wouldn't write a paper on how I made a program that randomly generates words. :P
14:28:15 <ais523> indeed, it's known techniques
14:28:21 <fizzie> oklopol: I hope you are naming them with a numbering scheme, so that you can have people referring to "oklopol's 37th theorem".
14:28:25 <ais523> the general point of PhDs is that you're expanding the boundaries of knowledge
14:28:43 <ais523> oklopol is proving new results, whereas what I'm doing is basically programming
14:28:52 <itidus21> kallisti: uhhh.... this is a difficult topic. in the end intelligence as a measurement crumbles under it's own weight.
14:28:53 <ais523> it's coming up with new algorithms, I guess, looked at from the mathematical view
14:29:12 <ais523> and when we prove theorems, it's either to prove that they produce the right results, or that they always terminate
14:29:12 <oklopol> i don't think many of them will ever be referred to, this is the number of theorems that aren't trivial to prove, the number of useful results is way less.
14:29:21 <kallisti> ais523: maybe as I focus on new side-projects I'll come across something somewhat new.
14:29:26 <itidus21> so i guess what i am saying is there is a mild sarcasm for me whenever i use that word intelligent
14:29:28 <Jafet> Programming can be a research topic
14:29:38 <Jafet> But results tend to become dated
14:29:44 <ais523> kallisti: we couldn't believe that what we were doing was new, in some cases, but it turned out that it was
14:30:17 <oklopol> we have some computational results, decidability and semidecidability stuff
14:30:25 <kallisti> ais523: maybe I should focus on what interests me outside of computing. I have a pretty strong grasp of signal processing as it relates to music. I could probably find something new there.
14:30:26 <itidus21> kallisti: uhhh.. like.. you know.. theres tangible intelligence and intangible intelligence *pulls hair out*
14:30:40 <oklopol> mainly on zero entropy sofic shifts, since we're trying to get to a CS conference that emphasizes this
14:31:21 <kallisti> itidus21: I generally don't think that the many different kinds of intelligence are truly quantifiable. IQ has statistical importance but there are other ways to think of what intelligence means.
14:31:27 <oklopol> maybe not 50, the number was 37 last i checked, but that was after summer and we have 3 new results this week i think
14:31:34 <oklopol> so it might be about 50 but dunno
14:31:39 <Phantom_Hoover> "Zero entropy sofic shift" sounds like something straight out of some new age crackpot website.
14:31:40 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 12 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:31:50 <itidus21> ;_; the topic of intelligence itself is indeed one that requires intelligence to traverse
14:31:57 <oklopol> i'm counting mine and my colleague's, there's a couple that he proved and about half are joint work
14:32:07 <kallisti> ais523: in particular I've been considering that there are a number of combinators that you can apply to form rhythmic patterns. It may be under some existing generalization though.
14:32:58 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell elliott FFS, find a way of messaging me that doesn't overflow so easily.
14:33:09 <kallisti> the simplest would be parallel and serial combinations.
14:33:19 <oklopol> a sofic shift is just a shift space defined by a labeled directed graph, they are the closure under factor maps of subshifts of finite type, which on the other hand are exactly the subshifts defined by a clopen set
14:33:52 <Jafet> And time has four corners
14:33:55 <oklopol> and zero entropy means the topological entropy of the dynamical system where the left shift is the dynamics
14:34:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: does lambdabot overflow?
14:34:41 <oklopol> but there's a nice characterization for these
14:35:10 <oklopol> i have no idea who i'm talking to
14:35:33 <kallisti> hmm also you can shrink and expand rhythmic patterns.
14:36:03 <kallisti> so you could combine two rhythms serial (basically end to end) and also have the result be the same duration as the originally, basically doubling the speed of both.
14:36:49 <kallisti> but I'm pretty sure these notions of serial and parallel exist elsewhere. If you model rhythms as a linked list, then the serial combinator is just (++) in Haskell.
14:37:16 <Jafet> If you work hard on this, you might successfully get hired by whoever puts those bland pop tunes on the radios
14:37:33 <kallisti> to algorithmically generate pop? sounds... uh... good
14:37:50 * kallisti would change pop forever by NOT USING FUCKING 4/4 TIME SIGNATURE FOR EVERYTHING
14:37:52 <Jafet> Sounds profitable. And Orwellian
14:38:19 <Vorpal> yeah why is 4/4 so popular. Nothing wrong with 2/4, 3/4, 2/3 and so on IMO
14:38:27 <kallisti> Taylor Swift's latest single will be 5/4 7/4 5/4
14:38:33 <Jafet> They don't even use time signatures any more! They steal time signatures from older tunes.
14:38:46 <kallisti> (well, just 5-7-5, the denominator is irrelevant to the actual meter)
14:38:47 <Jafet> Look at breakbeats
14:39:49 <kallisti> well you could have like, i,j-Fibonacci time.
14:40:04 <kallisti> i and j being the interval you want to use.
14:40:43 <Jafet> You could use nothing but concatenated permutations of a set of tones. Oh wait.
14:41:01 <oerjan> oklopol: i think sofic shift spaces are like the two-sided infinite generalization of regular languages
14:41:29 <kallisti> The Tool song "Lateralus" has one part where the syllables in each measure of lyrics follow the pattern: 1 1 2 3 5 8 5 3
14:41:45 <oerjan> you have a finite automaton, but it never stops nor has it ever started
14:42:28 <oklopol> yeah they are exactly the subshifts whose language is regular, and a regular language that's factor closed and extendable gives a sofic shift
14:42:41 <kallisti> Jafet: I think I'll use subsequences selected from an infinite continuum of sinusoids.
14:42:55 <fizzie> oerjan: You mean a duracell-powered finite automaton?
14:42:59 <oklopol> but my definition makes more sense in symbolic dynamics
14:43:10 <oklopol> that's how it's mostly used
14:43:25 <oklopol> that it's the closure of sft's under factors
14:44:38 <fizzie> Festival pronounces "Phantom_Hoover" as "phantom-underscore-hoover".
14:45:51 <kallisti> isn't that how everyone pronounces Phantom_Hoover?
14:46:12 <Jafet> I pronounce it as "Wally"
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14:46:36 <kallisti> Jafet: I pronounce "Wally" as "[;[8]]&*]6"
14:46:51 <fizzie> "Some pronounce it 'asshole'." No, I mean, I wouldn't spell out the underscore if someone told me to read these IRC logs out loud.
14:47:13 <EgoBot> Number found where operator expected at /tmp/input.7581 line 1, near "*]6"
14:47:20 <EgoBot> syntax error at /tmp/input.7641 line 1, near "[;"
14:48:24 <kallisti> it was /almost/ valid Perl. :P
14:49:21 <EgoBot> SCALAR(0x7f7155eaebf8)
14:49:28 <EgoBot> Missing right curly or square bracket at /tmp/input.7956 line 1, at end of line
14:50:43 <kallisti> fizzie: ais523: have you ever found a use for typeglobs now that Perl 5 introduced refs?
14:51:11 <ais523> kallisti: injecting variables into other package's symbol tables; this makes the most sense in a library designed to generate code
14:51:55 <fizzie> I haven't, but I haven't been doing very "deep" Perl either.
14:51:56 <ais523> e.g. you write a library which adds extra functions to packages that reference it
14:52:04 <ais523> fizzie: wait, how does that work?
14:52:17 <fizzie> It just bitwise-ors the bytes.
14:52:19 <ais523> aha, it's a reference bitwise-ored with a symbol table entry
14:52:31 <fizzie> Of "*main::]" and "ARRAY(0xwhatever)".
14:53:12 <fizzie> The anded version starts with a null byte, sadly, so EgoBot won't print it.
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14:54:57 <kallisti> fizzie: is there anyway to enfroce a bit width of 8 on Perl scalar values?
14:55:16 <kallisti> I'd like to play around with a simple 8-bit synthesis in Perl. I could just use C but.... why not use Perl instead if I can. :P
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14:55:50 <fizzie> Don't know; they *could've* made "use integer" take a bit-width (like "use integer 8;"), but it doesn't.
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14:56:11 <fizzie> You can just &0xff everywhere, of course.
14:57:46 <fizzie> What I think is a bit weird is how "use integer" makes the always-integral bitwise things (&, |, ^, ~, <<, >>) use signed integers instead of the unsigned ones they usually use.
14:58:26 <fizzie> !perl $a = ~0; { use integer; $b = ~0; } print "a $a, b $b";
14:58:26 <EgoBot> a 18446744073709551615, b -1
14:58:53 <fizzie> I suppose it makes some amount of sense, I just think unsigned integers are somehow more... integery.
14:59:00 <fizzie> Okay, *that* probably doesn't make any sense.
14:59:19 <kallisti> fizzie and his arbitrary notions of integeriness
14:59:44 <kallisti> mayb "use integer" is like saying "use /all/ the integers"
15:00:46 <kallisti> what I find strange about bitwise operators in high-level languages is that normally those languages don't specify anything about the bit composition of values.
15:02:51 <oklopol> negative integers? someone still believes in those?? :D
15:03:15 <oklopol> by the way, that article that supposedly proved peano axioms are inconsistent, it was retracted and there's no trace of it anywhere :D
15:03:39 <kallisti> the revelation was simply too shocking
15:03:51 <oklopol> kallisti: if you multiply two negative integers, you get a positive one, that's fucking ridiculous
15:03:57 <oklopol> how can anyone think that's true
15:04:08 <oklopol> therefore there are no negative integers
15:04:24 <fizzie> > bitSize (1 :: Integer)
15:04:25 <kallisti> I mean it would make sense if the result continued to be negative..
15:04:25 <lambdabot> *Exception: Data.Bits.bitSize(Integer)
15:04:29 <oklopol> that was actually an argument used when these were introduced
15:04:29 <fizzie> Aw, it has no size. :/
15:04:56 <kallisti> but then who knows what would happen when you tried to multiply a negative and a positive..
15:05:00 <kallisti> if negative * negative = negative
15:05:13 <oklopol> there was really no concept of a mathematical object back then
15:05:35 <kallisti> well no you could totally do it that way
15:05:44 <oklopol> anyhow, i have to go to a party 8Z
15:06:50 <fizzie> A "socialite" is the no-sugar version of a "socialist".
15:06:56 <kallisti> fizzie: ais523: conjecture with me what would happen if you made multiplication of a positive number and a negative number have two possible results
15:08:40 <kallisti> well, it's still commutative I think..
15:09:30 <kallisti> but that's not what I was talking about obviously :P
15:10:34 <kallisti> er.... no maybe it's not commutative
15:10:56 <kallisti> 2 * -3 * -4 evaluating left to right
15:11:44 <fizzie> Are you sure it's not +--24.
15:11:46 <kallisti> even though there are three results two of them are the same
15:12:07 <kallisti> but if you did it that way then it would result in it being non-comutative I think
15:12:24 <Jafet> I prefer the Copenhagen interpretation of arithmetic
15:12:37 <kallisti> evaluating left to right, would produce just +-24
15:13:09 <kallisti> screw this direction of thought
15:13:17 <kallisti> you can only have +, -, and +-
15:13:45 <fizzie> Lo, there are many planets in the archipelago of worlds.
15:14:33 <kallisti> help I affiliate myself with madmen.
15:15:03 <kallisti> s/affiliate myself/confederate/
15:15:52 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, and, in turn, many archipelagos on the planets.
15:16:11 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: dude what if there are universe archipelagos
15:16:45 <kallisti> and... like, univunivarchipelago
15:17:03 <kallisti> WHAT IF EVERYTHING SMALL IS A SMALL VERSION OF SOMETHING BIG.
15:17:49 <fizzie> There's an island in the sea around here, on which there's a lake, in which there's a small islet, on which there's a puddle. (Didn't someone make a comic out of this already?)
15:18:23 <Jafet> That island must make great target practice for bomber pilots
15:18:25 <Phantom_Hoover> kallisti, careful now, too much of that kind of thinking and you're ruining Minecraft's terrain gen.
15:19:07 <kallisti> #esoteric is an peoplarchipelago
15:19:23 <kallisti> and people are CELL ARCHIPELAGOS
15:25:26 <kallisti> are there any four-signed number systems out there?
15:28:55 <kallisti> I think a four-signed number would mess up 1 as the multiplicative identity
15:29:01 <kallisti> 0 would still be the additive identity though
15:30:48 <kallisti> unless you just kept 1 as the multiplicative identity and made multiplication asymmetric
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16:06:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Wolfram blog on the fold function: "It shows unusual mastery of functional programming constructs to achieve a beautiful graphic result."
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16:17:46 <Ngevd> ais523, you're in my top two people who are, or I think are, in Birmingham
16:18:10 <ais523> Ngevd: there's quite a lot of evidence that I'm usually in Birmingham
16:18:14 <Ngevd> Phantom_Hoover, you're my favourite person in Edinburgh. By a long way
16:18:19 <ais523> although that doesn't imply I'm in Birmingham right now, it makes it quite a bit more likely
16:18:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I can only conclude that you either a) hate someone else in Edinburgh or b) aren't very good at being pedantic.
16:18:59 <Ngevd> I don't know many Edinburghians
16:19:07 <Ngevd> Pretty much only you
16:19:57 <Ngevd> And possibly Alexander McCall Smith
16:20:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I recognise the name, and I'm not entirely sure it's as an author.
16:21:44 <Ngevd> Did the 44 Scotland Street and Number 1 Lady's Decective Agency books
16:21:47 <ais523> two of those names are kind-of familiar to me
16:22:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I would be extremely surprised if neither 'Alexander' nor 'Smith' were familiar to you.
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16:23:36 <Ngevd> My mum met him once when he came to Hexham
16:23:36 <Ngevd> ais523, the other person who lives in Birmingham who I have heard of is possibly the author of Gunnerkrigg Court
16:24:01 <ais523> I think there are quite a lot of famous people from Birmingham, because it's quite large
16:24:11 <ais523> on the other hand, they're not generally famous /for/ being from Birmingham
16:24:53 <kallisti> I change the source of mueval to import some modules
16:24:59 <kallisti> and then I run the build script to install it
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16:28:46 <kallisti> had to do Setup copy instead of install for some reason?
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17:36:48 <elliott> 09:30:46: <kallisti> elliott_: is how you prevent Perl from interpolating in a shell command
17:36:48 <elliott> 09:31:06: <kallisti> if you're using system or whatever else you would just pass a single quoted string obviously.
17:36:51 <elliott> kallisti: that is not the problem
17:37:01 <elliott> kallisti: how do i pass args in a list like python subprocess
17:39:39 <quintopia> what is the hardest language to debug?
17:39:44 <elliott> 'ls', '-l', 'filename with spaces'
17:39:50 <elliott> this is necessary to avoid shell injection
17:40:01 <kallisti> or exec, depending on if you want to wait or not.
17:40:11 <kallisti> system waits for the child to finish, exec doesn't
17:40:29 <ais523> a good IDE would help, though
17:40:46 <elliott> ais523: how do I do perl's `...` but with an argv instead of a string or do i have to emulaet it myself
17:40:46 <ais523> showing both original and normalized views of memory at once, and probably encryption chains too
17:41:02 <elliott> it can be done with exec but that's a painfully low-level interface
17:41:09 <ais523> elliott: there's no operator for doing that straight off, I don't think
17:41:16 <ais523> there's almost certainly a library, probably a standard one
17:41:24 <ais523> or, hmm, what about piped open?
17:41:32 <ais523> I've never used it, but I think that's what you need
17:41:33 <elliott> doesn't that look like '|foo bar'
17:41:57 <ais523> elliott: there's a four-or-more arg version of open
17:42:09 <ais523> which does take an argv as the extra arguments at the end
17:42:35 <kallisti> oh you want to pass the argv directly....
17:42:39 <ais523> open my $fh, '-|', 'somecommand', @argv;
17:42:52 <ais523> then $fh is its stdout and you can just read it via the normal means
17:45:06 * elliott does the regular Chrome restart
17:45:26 <kallisti> hmmm, when would you use CReal?
17:45:40 <elliott> when you want computable reals
17:45:51 <elliott> if you don't know whether you do or not, you don't
17:46:04 <kallisti> so it would basically be to avoid floating point errors?
17:46:37 <kallisti> so it would basically be to avoid floating point errors when you're not dealing with rational numbers?
17:46:48 <elliott> you are dealing with rational numbers
17:46:51 <elliott> floats are an approximation of rationals
17:46:55 <ais523> kallisti: if it's referring to all computable reals, it only work properly on irrational numbers
17:47:10 <ais523> computable reals that happen to be equal to integers can't actually be converted to decimal expansion
17:47:17 <ais523> you can still compute with them
17:47:24 <elliott> ais523: err, I don't know what you're talking about
17:47:27 <ais523> but you can't do < or > on computable reals unless the numbers happen to actually be different
17:47:29 <elliott> CReal can output approximate decimals just fine
17:47:37 <elliott> that's got nothing to do with decimal expansion
17:47:39 <elliott> kallisti: if your question involves "avoid", "errors", you don't want CReal
17:47:40 <kallisti> that's irrational and approximated by float.
17:47:47 <elliott> kallisti: unless you're a mathematician, you don't want CReal
17:47:48 <ais523> elliott: I'm thinking of infinite-precision real numbres
17:48:02 <kallisti> can I pretend to be one of those?
17:48:09 <elliott> ais523: nobody uses the infinite-digit representation
17:48:14 <kallisti> I actually have no use case at the moment.
17:48:19 <elliott> kallisti: here's some things CReal can't do:
17:48:22 <elliott> kallisti: terminate when you do (a == a)
17:48:30 <elliott> kallisti: terminate when you do (a > a)
17:48:34 <ais523> elliott: I've been to seminars where infinite-digit representation was involved
17:48:35 <elliott> kallisti: terminate when you do (a < a)
17:48:49 <ais523> and the main difficulty, as you're mentioning there, is comparing two numbers that happen to be equal
17:48:55 <elliott> ais523: the main difficulty is arithmetic
17:48:57 <kallisti> elliott: you mean /always/ terminate right?
17:49:01 <elliott> that's just a property of the computable reals
17:49:01 <Deewiant> > let a = 1.23 :: CReal in a == a
17:49:09 <ais523> kallisti: no, you get an infinite loop whenever you compare a number to itself
17:49:14 <elliott> CReal's (==) instance just does it to an approximation
17:49:27 <ais523> elliott: oh, I guess it's approximating with the decimal expansions too?
17:49:28 <elliott> I'm not sure that's Few Digits' CReal
17:49:34 <ais523> as in, there's always a chance that the last digit is wrong?
17:50:03 <elliott> ais523: well, um, you can always take a CReal to within a given precision
17:50:28 <ais523> elliott: yes, and your result will have more digits than you asked for, with the last potentially being wrong
17:50:36 <ais523> you can't say "pi to 8 decimal places", though
17:50:52 <kallisti> elliott: they should be renamed to "undecidably equal reals"
17:51:00 <ais523> well, you can because pi is irrational, but you couldn't if there was a chance that the number was actually accurate to 8 decimal places
17:51:10 <elliott> kallisti: you act like you were expecting computable reals to be useful for computation
17:51:42 <lambdabot> 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841972
17:52:40 <kallisti> elliott: so CReal isn't good for like... high precision math because it doesn't terminate often?
17:52:56 <elliott> kallisti: even if computable reals were useful for computation, Few Digits is incredibly slow
17:53:02 <elliott> as are all the implementatinos, because... they're not useful for computation
17:53:13 <elliott> it's theory. unless you're a theorist, you don't care.
17:53:22 <elliott> "Few Digits is not fast. Few Digits is part of my Ph. D. research. My goal is to implement an exact real arithmetic package in Coq that is proven correct (with respect to C-CoRN) and is sufficiently fast. The goal is to be fast enough to prove the inequalities required by Hales’s proof of Kepler’s Conjecture."
17:54:03 <kallisti> so I only want to use CReal if I'm proving the inequalities required by Hale's proof of Kepler's Conjecture
17:54:27 <ais523> elliott: I've been to a seminar that was using computable reals to calculate pi to infinitely many decimal places
17:54:34 <ais523> and we've been using the resulting program as a test of the hardware compiler
17:54:46 <ais523> on the basis that it's the sort of program that makes no sense to typical hardware compilers
17:54:48 <elliott> ais523: that's, err, noteworthy enough for a seminar?
17:54:55 <elliott> I can do that in five lines of Haskell
17:55:07 <ais523> elliott: it was about computable reals, and just an example
17:55:43 <ais523> I ran the resulting VHDL for almost a week in a simulator on my laptop, it output the first 4 balanced binary digits
17:55:54 <lambdabot> quicksilver says: overlapping actually shatters the language into tiny inconsistent pieces, and incoherent files off the edges of the pieces so they don't even fit together any more.
17:56:00 <HackEgo> 9) <Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence \ 14) <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you know the rest. \ 15) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 30)
17:56:06 <HackEgo> 427) <ais523_> meanwhile, I've been running a program for over 24 hours (getting close to 48 now) which is calculating digits of pi, in binary <ais523_> so far, it has found four digits <ais523_> I hope it will find the fifth some time this week \ 513) <pikhq> I actually had a Neopets account. I later gained a second digit in my age. \ 643) <fungot> sadhu: it's been said that boole is the crowning jewel perched
17:56:22 <ais523> I knew it was in there somewhere
17:57:03 <ais523> part of the slowness is all the interpretation between paradigms
17:58:10 <ais523> simulating FPGA behaviour on a CPU is slow, as they're rather different arches; doing single-threaded recursion on an FPGA isn't really faster than doing it on a CPU; and there was no memoization, in a program designed to run in a call-by-need language
17:58:22 <Gregor> lol, this spam is from "Google Incorporation. (info.google@msn.com)"
17:58:29 <ais523> (OK, so Haskell isn't /technically required/ call-by-need, but what sane interp doesn't implement it like that?)
17:58:36 <ais523> Gregor: that's pretty good
17:58:54 <elliott> <ais523> (OK, so Haskell isn't /technically required/ call-by-need, but what sane interp doesn't implement it like that?)
17:59:00 <elliott> ais523: speculative evaluation is pretty sane!
17:59:25 <ais523> elliott: hmm, what's that, and how is it different from call-by-need?
17:59:43 <elliott> ais523: it isn't a complete strategy itself, it just refers to evaluating thunks even when they're not demanded
17:59:56 <elliott> and looking away sheepishly and pretending nothing happened if it ends up _|_
18:00:09 <elliott> the idea is that you predict which thunks are going to be used in the future and evaluate them ahead of time in another thread
18:00:55 <ais523> presumably that ends up somewhat concurrent if done well?
18:01:15 <elliott> well, you could even not do it in a separate thread
18:01:20 <elliott> you'd just have to bound the number of steps you take
18:01:34 <elliott> to make sure you don't accidentally make a terminating program with a non-terminating subterm less terminating than you'd like
18:02:23 <ais523> elliott: if it's not in a separate thread, there's no benefit to doing it out of order, is there?
18:03:44 <ais523> elliott: what was your Perl question about, btw?
18:03:56 <elliott> ais523: well, you could change [high activity][long pause][result] into [halved activity][result]
18:04:07 <elliott> by using every other cycle to reduce another complicated thunk
18:04:14 <elliott> that will be forced afterwards
18:04:20 <ais523> you don't get the result any faster, but it might look nicer to the user?
18:04:29 <elliott> ais523: well, incremental results are a useful thing :)
18:04:40 <elliott> ais523: you wouldn't have wanted to get no output until the program found every digit of pi, right?
18:04:58 <ais523> but it wouldn't give you any output any earlier
18:05:06 <ais523> it'd just delay some of the outputs
18:05:11 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: well, you could change [high activity][long pause][result] into [halved activity][result]
18:05:15 <elliott> the high activity outputs constantly
18:05:15 <ais523> and you can do that just as easily with a postprocessor
18:05:37 <ais523> elliott: yep, so you can get a postprocessor that just hides the results until it's ready to feed one to the user and make it look like they're coming constantly
18:06:07 <elliott> ais523: your argument seems to imply threads are useless on a uniprocessor
18:06:11 <ais523> I imagine most people wouldn't find that useful, but in case it's required…
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18:06:28 <kallisti> ais523: his question was about why Perl is so awesome and why he hasn't been using it since he was 8.
18:06:35 <ais523> elliott: no, we were specifically discussing the single-threaded case
18:06:51 <ais523> I can agree with a concurrent but uniprocessor case, potentially, although I think any performance gains will be marginal
18:10:27 <kallisti> it would be nice if strictness analysis worked perfectly always.
18:10:55 <ais523> I guess it can't because doing so would be uncomputable?
18:11:18 <elliott> ais523: but, umm, what's the difference between doing A, B, A, B, and doing A and B in threads on a uniprocessor machine?
18:12:17 <ais523> because doing A and B in threads can just do "A then B", or it can interleave if necessary to do something like benefit from pipeline stalls
18:12:26 <kallisti> ais523: I think you can get pretty close to perfect..
18:12:48 <elliott> ais523: that's a microoptimisation
18:12:52 <ais523> kallisti: indeed; you can write infinite loop checkers in practice that catch the majority of accidental infinite loops
18:13:04 <elliott> strictness analysis is harder than detecting infinite loops imo
18:13:11 <ais523> but you're not going to be able to use them for solving the world's big fundamental problems
18:13:17 <elliott> it's incredibly easy to change semantics
18:13:57 <ais523> elliott: this sort of thing's what my PhD is about, transforming programs without changing their semantics
18:14:14 <ais523> as long as you have a really good type system for the transformation (which needn't be the same as that of the underlying language), it's not too bad
18:14:20 <elliott> ais523: "this sort of thing" -- you took a large leap in generality there :P
18:14:37 <elliott> strictness analysis results in rather simple transformations, they're just really tricky to find
18:17:08 <elliott> 12:35:49: <kallisti> psh, come on. you can totally non-deterministically reverse to multiple past images.
18:17:08 <elliott> 12:35:50: <ais523> elliott_: I'm surprised that you're surprised at that; it's become more and more common recently
18:17:09 <elliott> 12:35:55: <ais523> I'm upset by it, but not surprised
18:17:11 <elliott> I don't keep up with PC gaming
18:17:14 <elliott> 12:36:12: <kallisti> what's wrong with requiring Steam? it's free right?
18:17:28 <elliott> kallisti: must be running to play the game, requires network connection to play the game, forced updates
18:18:15 <Deewiant> Network connection isn't required
18:18:34 <elliott> Deewiant: I haven't heard good things about the "offline mode"
18:18:35 <Deewiant> Nor, in all cases, is keeping Steam running; you can often run the game exe directly
18:18:43 <elliott> (Mostly what I've heard is "it doesn't work")
18:18:43 <Deewiant> elliott: It's worked for me the few times I've used it
18:19:22 <elliott> Deewiant: Well, my other objections are still relevant :P
18:19:37 <Deewiant> Forced updates is the only relevant one
18:19:55 <ais523> existence of DRM is often relevant
18:20:12 <Deewiant> I took "DRM" as a summary of the previous points
18:20:38 <ais523> nah, the fundamental concept of DRM is that it prevents you copying the game to a different system
18:20:46 <ais523> the previous points are consistent with that, but don't imply it
18:20:57 <ais523> it does if you don't own it
18:21:24 <elliott> Deewiant: It was a summary, yes
18:21:30 <elliott> Another objection: You're not allowed to sell your copy of the game
18:21:36 <elliott> (Or, more generally, share it)
18:22:35 <kallisti> I don't think is an objection to "Steam has DRM" as much as it is "games are copyrighted and closed source"
18:22:47 <elliott> Deewiant: Even more generally, I object to buying a physical box containing what is essentially a right to rent the game out :P
18:23:02 <elliott> kallisti: Selling games is not illegal.
18:23:17 <elliott> I can buy a non-Steam game box and sell it and the recipient can play the game.
18:23:19 <ais523> elliott: well, I did just that in the case of Neverwinter Nights; went to a shop and bought the Windows version for a license to download the Linux version (from the manufacturers)
18:23:22 <elliott> I can buy a non-Steam game box and give it to someone else and the recipient can play the game.
18:23:30 <elliott> None of these things are possible with a Steam box.
18:24:07 <elliott> ais523: At least you could move those bits around and have them still work without them being tied to an account
18:24:19 <elliott> ais523: Although selling them would be illegal because [copyright law]
18:24:51 <elliott> kallisti: It's pretty impressive that copyright has managed to convince people that wanting to sell something you bought is unreasonable because it's INFRINGEMENT, though
18:25:07 <ais523> I liked Borland's licenses; they were pretty much "please treat this software as a physical object; it's just fine for you to give or sell it to someone else but you must delete all your copies in the process"
18:25:45 <elliott> ais523: well, it's more reasonable than most licenses, but it smells of lawyers demanding that bits be coerced into being like boxes
18:25:59 <ais523> although they generally had a clause that you couldn't use the product to make another product that competed with itself
18:26:14 * elliott wonders what would happen if you just gave people a license to do absolutely anything with the downloaded binaries
18:26:15 <ais523> so, say, you couldn't produce a commercial C compiler using Borland C
18:26:20 <elliott> sure, it'd make it legal to put it up on a torrent site
18:26:24 <elliott> but it'll end up on a torrent site /anyway/
18:26:37 <elliott> so if it doesn't noticeably increase piracy and the like, it sounds like a good idea
18:26:44 <elliott> because of all the hassle it eliminates
18:26:45 <ais523> elliott: I'm upset that game companies don't sell legal ROMs
18:26:53 <ais523> I know quite a few people who'd buy them; I probably would
18:27:01 <ais523> (that is, console game companies)
18:27:21 <elliott> unfortunately that runs into the problem that ROMs have tons of formats
18:27:24 <calamari> ais523: many years ago atari licensed some of their arcade roms to a company called star roms.. I bought a few of them
18:27:24 <ais523> the ROM is going to get dumped anyway, so why not give a legal access route for it rather than force people who want it to get it illegally?
18:27:30 <elliott> and many of them are bad (= can't accurately represent the source media)
18:27:41 <elliott> and the chances of the game company picking the right one are very small :P
18:27:49 <ais523> people would write converters
18:27:58 <elliott> ais523: you can't write a converter from a broken format to a working one
18:28:06 <calamari> yeah that's what happened.. star roms handled the formatting of it for mame or whatever
18:28:17 <ais523> I'd assume they'd pick a format that contained all necessary info
18:28:20 <Vorpal> elliott: for modern roms you just need a memory dump. Much harder for snes era and older of course.
18:28:23 <elliott> ais523: consider that the vastly most common SNES ROM format is broken
18:28:42 <ais523> elliott: hmm, what info does it miss?
18:28:51 <elliott> ais523: ask pikhq for details
18:29:09 <elliott> http://bos.github.com/criterion/ oh my god this is so pretty
18:29:43 <kallisti> Valve Corporation President Gabe Newell also stated "most DRM strategies are just dumb" because they only decrease the value of a game in the consumer's eyes.
18:30:00 <ais523> wow, is that using something like 200-space indents?
18:30:20 <ais523> let me take a screenshot
18:31:06 <fizzie> Nuance's "Dragon Dictation" for iPhone has funny license terms: "You may not: -- (i) use the Service for purposes of comparison with or benchmarking against products or services made available by third parties." So you can't compare it with other iDevice speech recognition things in order to pick one of them to use.
18:31:30 <kallisti> elliott: what's up with all the letters blending together at the bottom...
18:31:46 <elliott> kallisti: that's a standard linux/chromium font rendering problem
18:32:00 <Vorpal> kallisti: the link? works fine in firefox
18:32:24 <kallisti> elliott: I thought that was going to do... nothing, but it fixed it.
18:32:29 <fizzie> And the "no reverse engineering" clause is particularly broad too: "You may not -- decompile, disassemble, reverse engineer or otherwise attempt to derive, reconstruct, identify or discover any source code, underlying ideas, or algorithms, of the Software or Service by any means". If you're literal enough, you can't even just idly wonder what they've done, because it would be "identifying underlying ideas".
18:32:34 <ais523> bleh, imgur got stuck at 79%
18:32:37 <calamari> speaking of linux.. I switched to lubuntu (lxde) and I like it
18:32:43 <Deewiant> fizzie: Identifying would be getting it correct
18:32:47 <ais523> elliott: what's that site about?
18:32:57 <Deewiant> fizzie: You can wonder as long as you wonder about the wrong things
18:32:57 <fizzie> Deewiant: Okay, "attempting to identify".
18:33:01 <elliott> ais523: hardcore pornography and warez, obviously
18:33:28 <elliott> and not hardcore pornography and warez
18:33:55 <ais523> it looks like JavaScript, or a similar language; it starts beyond the left edge of the screen, and the first line is ','","");this.element_.insertAdjacentHTML("BeforeEnd",AU.join(""))};M.stroke=function(AM){var m=10;var AN=10;var AE=5000;var AG={x:null,y:null};var AL={x:null,y:null};for(var AH=0;AHAL.x){AL.x
18:33:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: Someone at work had tried to use it (they added the Finnish option just recently), got some bad results for complicated words with lots of suffixes, and wondered about the language model; felt tempted to say "no, stop! you're attempting to identify ideas!"
18:34:07 <Vorpal> ais523: where is that from?
18:34:08 <ais523> then the second line, and all the lines on the first screen, start level with the H in AHAL
18:34:12 <ais523> Vorpal: elliott's link
18:34:21 <Vorpal> ais523: what browser are you using
18:34:22 <elliott> ais523: s.getCoords_(AH+AJ,AF+AV);AS.x=z.max(AS.x,AR.x,AP.x,AL.x);AS.y=z.max(AS.y,AR.y,AP.y,AL.y);AU.push("padding:0 ",K(AS.x/D),"px ",K(AS.y/D),"px 0;filter:progid:DXImageTransform.Microsoft.Matrix(",p.join(""),", sizingmethod='clip');")}else{AU.push("top:",K(AW.y/D),"px;left:",K(AW.x/D),"px;")}AU.push(' ">','<g_vml_:image src="',AO.src,'"',' style="width:',D*AJ,"px;"," height:",D*AV,'px"',' cropleft="',AM/AG,'"',' croptop="',AK/AT,'"',' cropright=
18:34:22 <elliott> G-AM-AQ)/AG,'"',' cropbottom="',(AT-AK-AX)/AT,'"'," />","</g_vml_:group>");this.element_.insertAdjacentHTML("
18:34:28 <elliott> ais523: looks like your browser misparses html
18:34:44 <Vorpal> ais523: that stuff doesn't show up in my firefox window. Nor in view source
18:34:50 <elliott> function t(Z){switch(Z){case"butt":return"flat";case"round":return"round";case"square":default:return"square"}}
18:34:52 <ais523> elliott: then a screenful down from that, it starts even /further/ to the right, about one and a half screenfuls of horizontal scorlling
18:35:01 <elliott> ais523: run it in a non-broken browser
18:35:05 <Vorpal> ais523: the whole page is a script though
18:35:18 <elliott> well, the chart-drawing is
18:35:29 <fizzie> The Chromium "let's mangle letters together" thing is slightly annoying. (I've been using Chromium lately because my Firefox got so full of tabs I haven't dared to restore-session it, and I don't want to be all ineiros about it.)
18:35:30 <Vorpal> right, I just right clicked and went "view source"
18:35:37 <ais523> below that, about two screenfulls scrolling to the right, are the words "criterion performance measurements" in really large font
18:35:44 <elliott> ais523: you can stop describing
18:35:56 <ais523> and then various information, with a rather worrying amount of vertical spacing
18:36:01 <ais523> elliott: I'm just amused that you found it all beautiful
18:36:02 <Vorpal> ais523: which firefox version?
18:36:04 <elliott> fizzie: it never used to happen to me before i switched to arch; I think Chrome might not have that problem somehow
18:36:08 <elliott> ais523: because it doesn't look like that
18:36:20 <elliott> ais523: ha ha, I'm seeing something different to you and I think it looks nice
18:36:20 <Vorpal> ais523: that is ancient!
18:36:25 <ais523> elliott: in that case, why won't you believe me when I say github is broken?
18:36:28 <calamari> seemed to look okay for me.. ff 8 in linux
18:36:33 -!- elliott has left ("ragepat").
18:36:36 -!- elliott has joined.
18:36:37 -!- elliott has left ("ragepart").
18:36:50 <Vorpal> ais523: let me try on whatever luicd has
18:37:20 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
18:37:45 <ais523> how do I tell it not to let kallisti @tell me?
18:37:50 <lambdabot> tell <nick> <message>. When <nick> shows activity, tell them <message>.
18:38:00 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
18:38:05 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
18:38:07 <calamari> what elliott just did reminds me of when I am trying to get off the phone with someone and saying the usual crap and the phone disconnects
18:38:09 <Vorpal> ais523: yeah it is broken on firefox 3.6
18:38:19 <calamari> do I call back to say "bye", or just leave it at that?
18:38:20 <Vorpal> ais523: just upgrade already
18:38:28 <hagb4rd> hm html5 gepaart mit ein wenig krimineller energie.. enjoy ;)
18:38:32 <hagb4rd> http://homepage.alice.de/hagbard/disintegration.html
18:39:12 <calamari> yeah I don't,, it's just awkward .. so rejoining irc to correct your /quit typo seems weird lol
18:39:13 <Vorpal> ais523: in a modern browser it really has a very nice design
18:39:25 <ais523> Vorpal: isn't being broken on a reasonably recent browser (Firefox 3.6 is reasonably recent, even if the version numbers have been going stratospheric recently to hide it) a sign of a badly-designed website?
18:39:59 <Gregor> I can't think of a clever way to format my code for my IOCCC entry.
18:40:02 <Vorpal> ais523: maybe. But then it might be a bug in firefox 3.6
18:40:13 <ais523> Deewiant: right, it's only two years old
18:40:14 <Gregor> I'm thinking I'll just indent it nicely and say "look: even indented nicely it's incomprehensible"
18:40:20 <Vorpal> ais523: I don't think you should design for anything but the official specs.
18:40:30 -!- elliott has joined.
18:40:31 <Vorpal> ais523: if a browser is buggy is it not the problem of the web designer
18:40:33 <elliott> calamari: It was a /part typo!
18:40:34 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:40:43 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: this is a quit typo!).
18:40:55 <Vorpal> ais523: it is the problem of the browser programmers
18:40:57 <fizzie> Deewiant: But latest 3.6.x is less than a month old.
18:41:05 <Vorpal> ais523: do you disagree about that?
18:41:13 <ais523> Gregor: I've had the best indentation idea ever for my entry
18:41:14 <ais523> it's managed to confuse every prettypogram I've tried yet
18:41:17 <ais523> Vorpal: perhaps; I'm not convinced that the website is following the specs, though
18:41:32 <Deewiant> fizzie: Since < 3.6.10 they've all been only security updates
18:41:36 <Vorpal> ais523: I could throw it into the w3c validator. Not sure it does js
18:41:56 <ais523> well, it shouldn't be displaying scripts it doesn't understand
18:42:04 -!- elliott has joined.
18:42:05 <elliott> ais523: It is; your browser misparses comments.
18:42:08 <fizzie> Deewiant: An update is an update is an update.
18:42:09 <ais523> and it should gracefully degrade for people with scripts turned off (I have scripts turned off)
18:42:16 <calamari> elliott: glad you found my analysis amusing tho
18:42:19 <ais523> elliott: hmm, aha, I think I might know what the problem is
18:42:23 <Vorpal> "118 Errors, 5 warning(s) "
18:42:38 <ais523> does the page have a "comment" starting <!-- which contains an -- somewhere inside it?
18:42:40 <Deewiant> fizzie: But the issue here (if any) is probably related to the layout engine, which is the same in all 3.6.x.
18:42:41 <Vorpal> elliott: the thing is broken: http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fbos.github.com%2Fcriterion%2F%23grokularation
18:42:55 <elliott> ais523: yes, but that's irrelevant
18:43:13 <ais523> elliott: no it isn't; SGML parsing, -- toggles a comment inside <!
18:43:19 <Gregor> Yup, definitely leaning towards indent -kr -nut
18:43:23 <ais523> what version of HTML does the page claim to use?
18:43:36 <Vorpal> elliott: that is besides the point since the page doesn't validate in the doctype it gives
18:43:36 <elliott> ais523: in fact, Firefox ignored --s for the longest time
18:43:47 <ais523> elliott: /not/ irrelevant, as sufficiently old versions of HTML use SGML comment parsing, don't they?
18:43:51 <elliott> ais523: but Ian Hixie pestered them to "fix" it (IIRC) during the acid 2 days
18:44:02 <elliott> then later realised he was wrong and everyone removed -- parsing
18:44:10 <elliott> ais523: no, old HTML versions use whatever browsers parse them as
18:44:19 <Vorpal> nor do the CSS validate http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?profile=css2&warning=2&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fbos.github.com%2Fcriterion%2F
18:44:30 <Vorpal> elliott: PAGE IS BROKEN. DO YOU HEAR ME?
18:44:39 <ais523> Vorpal: he probably has you on ignore
18:44:42 <elliott> ais523: e.g., the relevant parsing algorithm nowadays is the HTML5 algorithm, which applies to /all/ HTML versinos
18:45:06 <ais523> at least he hasn't reacted to anything you've said in my scrollback
18:45:07 <Vorpal> ais523: can you give him the relevant link to tell him he is wrong then? http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fbos.github.com%2Fcriterion%2F
18:45:07 <elliott> Vorpal: (a) I'm not responding to you because you're not saying anything relevant (b) stop being so fucking impatient, even if I was intending to respond to you I can't type this fast to two people at once
18:45:29 <Vorpal> no I'm not. The official standard is the official standard.
18:45:32 <Vorpal> There is nothing more to it.
18:45:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: Sadly, post-3.6.x Firefox no longer (I believe) supports OS X 10.4. :/
18:45:47 <ais523> fizzie: nor does Apple, presumably?
18:46:06 <elliott> Vorpal: indeed, you are continuing to reaffirm your status as idiot (I'm responding to you now, are you happy?)
18:46:12 <fizzie> ais523: Probably not, but newer versions cost money, and newest versions don't do PowerPC hardware either.
18:46:29 <Vorpal> elliott: certainly. Why are standards idiotic, as you seem to suggest is your opinion?
18:46:50 <elliott> yeah okay I'm putting you on actual real /ignore for a while, enjoy your timeout
18:47:01 <elliott> on less stupid topics: wow, qemu 1.0 is out
18:47:04 <Vorpal> *shrug*, I'm going to reboot to play skyrim.
18:47:13 <elliott> fizzie: Uh, 10.5 does PPC>
18:47:23 <fizzie> elliott: Yes, that's why "newest" and not "newer".
18:47:25 <ais523> elliott: hmm, there are only two sorts of projects, those which start at or above 1.0, and those who never reach it
18:47:29 <ais523> thus, umm, qemu doesn't exist
18:48:07 <calamari> ais523: so what happened when wine went 1.0?
18:48:19 <Vorpal> or meh, dredmor rather
18:48:44 <ais523> calamari: hey, enough people have called me on an obviously incorrect sweeping generalisation! you don't have to too, especially when I didn't mean it seriously!
18:48:49 <ais523> Vorpal: hmm, I was playing dredmor last night
18:48:57 <elliott> ais523: people should use mcmap's versioning scheme instead; it recently updated from version 7e7d04d to version b0bd464
18:48:57 <calamari> ais523: it was meant as a joke :)
18:48:59 <ais523> it seemed a bit buggy, and I hate the controls, but otherwise it seems like a good game
18:49:16 <calamari> ais523: there were plenty of silly comebacks possible :)
18:49:19 <Vorpal> ais523: oh, not a fan of wasd? I think the keys are rebindable
18:49:19 <ais523> elliott: most versioning systems benefit from having at least an obvious partial order
18:49:33 <elliott> ais523: I'm sure git commit trees have such a thing
18:49:35 <ais523> Vorpal: not a fan of having to use the mouse for most actions
18:49:49 <ais523> elliott: they do; but the version number abbreviations don't have one that can be counted mentally
18:49:58 <ais523> Vorpal: in particular, I think it's ridiculous that I can't just bump-attack enemies
18:50:05 <ais523> and it took me quite a while to figure out how to cancel spellcasting
18:50:17 <ais523> (you press the left mouse button while still holding the right mouse button)
18:50:27 <Vorpal> ais523: I'm not playing a spellcaster, so haven't run into that problem yet
18:50:31 <ais523> inventory management is awkward, too
18:50:36 <ais523> Vorpal: it applies for everything else as well
18:50:41 <ais523> incidentally, the tutorial is uncompletable
18:50:47 <Vorpal> ais523: yes I found out that bug too
18:50:50 <ais523> because the tutorial character's stats are too low
18:50:57 <calamari> I really need to get this capture driver working on ntsc
18:50:59 <Vorpal> ais523: should report it somewhere
18:51:00 <ais523> seems like a reasonably obvious oversight
18:51:15 <ais523> Vorpal: meh, commercial game, if they want bug reports they should pay for them
18:51:32 <Vorpal> ais523: anyway, if your game suddenly crashes there is a patch for the data files on the forum. Worked for me
18:51:41 <ais523> that hasn't happened to me yet
18:52:07 <elliott> ais523: many companies do offer token rewards for reporting sufficiently important bugs
18:52:17 <ais523> elliott: indeed, and that makes sense
18:52:31 <ais523> a company would probably be incorrect not to do so, economically speaking
18:52:53 <Vorpal> ais523: so what do you think it apart from those bugs and the control scheme?
18:52:55 <Deewiant> Too bad that most commercial software doesn't have public bug trackers
18:53:22 <elliott> Deewiant: The game Phantom_Hoover had a problem with was worse than that; it had a public BugZilla
18:53:41 <elliott> (The joke is that Bugzilla is the worst piece of software ever created)
18:54:07 <ais523> Vorpal: it's interesting so far; it feels rather grindy, and somewhat spoilery when it comes to monsters, though
18:54:11 <ais523> it reminds me of Crawl more than anything else
18:54:27 <ais523> elliott: it's the only site I've ever found with a login that works with cookies disabled
18:54:37 <ais523> admittedly, it makes you log in every screen, but it works
18:54:42 <Vorpal> ais523: I believe there is an option for less grinding in the new game options thingy
18:54:49 <ais523> Vorpal: there is, perhaps I'll try it
18:55:30 <kallisti> seriously lambdabot could easily allow deleting of single @let binds..
18:56:00 <lambdabot> <local>:3:7: Not in scope: `false'
18:56:10 <ais523> and I can't redefine type constructors
18:56:17 <ais523> besides, it should be False = True
18:56:27 <elliott> > let False = True in False
18:56:34 <elliott> > let False = True in False == True
18:56:39 <ais523> oh, wow, it does work?
18:56:59 <ais523> that is, @let on type constructors
18:57:10 <elliott> hmm, I forget why that match ends up non-strict
18:57:21 <ais523> what's not-equals in Haskell?
18:57:31 <ais523> I don't think the definition is working, though
18:57:46 <elliott> ais523: it's not a definition
18:57:50 <elliott> ais523: it's a pattern-match
18:57:55 <elliott> ais523: let x:xs = ys in ...
18:57:58 <elliott> ais523: let (:) x xs = ys in ...
18:58:01 <elliott> ais523: let Right x = y in ...
18:58:04 <elliott> ais523: let True = y in ...
18:58:09 <elliott> ais523: let y = False; True = y in ...
18:58:11 <elliott> ais523: let True = False in ...
18:58:32 <elliott> Deewiant: why does that match end up non-lazy, do you know
18:58:45 <ais523> elliott: hmm, surely it's just matching True against True, finding that they match, and returning False?
18:59:00 <ais523> @let 2::Integer + 2::Integer = 5
18:59:06 <ais523> elliott: I'm trying to redefine +
18:59:17 <elliott> <ais523> elliott: hmm, surely it's just matching True against True, finding that they match, and returning False?
18:59:19 <elliott> that was twhat the what was to
18:59:42 <Deewiant> elliott: Where is it non-lazy?
18:59:53 <elliott> Deewiant: why does it end up lazy, rather :)
18:59:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24476
19:00:00 <elliott> > let Right _ = Left () in ()
19:00:12 <ais523> kallisti: why would you pastebin the output of which?
19:00:13 <elliott> > let Right _ = undefined in ()
19:00:15 <elliott> right, all matches are lazy
19:00:41 <fizzie> Deewiant: ITYM @undefine; but is it the typofix that makes @unlet into @let which causes it to say "Defined."?
19:00:45 <ais523> that's like, umm, pastebinning the output of whoami
19:00:55 <kallisti> I'm pastebinning the file it refers to
19:01:08 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:01:12 <Deewiant> fizzie: Thanks, and presumably.
19:02:39 <elliott> @let where (+) = undefined
19:02:56 <Deewiant> @let x = 2 + 2 where (+) = undefined
19:03:10 <elliott> Deewiant: Gimme two lines which are valid definition lines by themselves but which, when concatenated, form a valid definition themselves
19:03:58 <Deewiant> elliott: Something like that? :-P
19:04:16 <Deewiant> Of course the indentation makes the latter invalid by itself
19:04:21 <elliott> Deewiant: Unfortunately the clash is problematic...
19:04:27 <Deewiant> Except in contexts where the indentation is valid
19:04:39 <elliott> I don't think that's working
19:05:28 <elliott> <mrakan> A hundred students have submitted their homework: a single Haskell module filled with functions of predefined names and types. I have correct function definitions in a module of my own: Correct.hs. What would be the best way to automatically verify how correct the students' homeworks are?
19:05:41 <elliott> <mike-burns> Review each homework line-by-line, offering feedback on what they did wrong, what they did right, and what was technically correct but could lead to problems.
19:05:46 <elliott> I found ais523's nemesis.;
19:06:07 <ais523> I sometimes have to override the marking script
19:06:17 <ais523> but the whole point of these questions is that they're designed for automatic marking
19:06:29 <ais523> and there's another separate set of questions that aren't, and are marked by hand by eight other people
19:07:23 <elliott> ais523: I would just spend all my time trying to craft programs that would fool the automatic marking system :(
19:08:07 <ais523> elliott: I only know of two; in both cases, I caught them checking the programs by eye, and emailed the student about them
19:08:30 <elliott> ais523: no, mine would overwrite your mailbox to remove the evidence
19:08:43 <ais523> elliott: I doubt you'd be able to break the sandbox
19:09:01 <elliott> I CAN DO ANYTHING IF I TRY HARD ENOUGH
19:09:05 <ais523> you'd need to either find a bug in ocamlc's parser, or in the part of ocamlrun that loaded the resulting compiled code into memory
19:09:16 <ais523> arbitrary code execution bug, that is
19:09:56 <kallisti> I wonder if my CS professors run our programs in a sandbox.
19:12:45 <kallisti> is there such a thing as like...
19:13:11 <kallisti> basically to avoid sequentially reading large amounts of data that you only want to access by keys.
19:14:04 <kallisti> I could convert my markov model to a massive directory structure.
19:14:22 <elliott> kallisti: you should definitely keep it in memory.
19:14:36 <kallisti> I wasn't even considering that.
19:14:47 <kallisti> that question wasn't even related to the markov model stuff actually.
19:15:56 <fizzie> There is also a seek system call which lets you jump ahead within a file without sequentially reading through it and throwing everything away.
19:18:27 <ais523> and mmap, which lets you map a portion of a file into memory
19:19:15 <fizzie> Also they are "experimentally" keeping our Scheme-based "introduction to programming" courses for people who are interested.
19:19:37 <kallisti> fizzie: soon to be replaced by Java and C++
19:19:49 <fizzie> No, they replaced it with Java and Python quite a while ago.
19:20:03 <fizzie> Apparently they're experimenting in bringing it back, experimentally.
19:20:19 <fizzie> And this is even second year they've doing the experimental experiment.
19:20:31 <kallisti> no one would become a programmer
19:21:03 <fizzie> They seems to have updated the environment to Gambit-C 4.6.0 instead of I-don't-recall-what-it-was-but-it-was-something-positively-crummy.
19:21:25 <kallisti> though I think some aspects of Perl are reasonably intuitive.
19:21:30 <kallisti> particularly the string/numeric conversions.
19:21:45 <fizzie> Also the collaborative programming project is officially done using Git. How ultramodern.
19:22:48 <kallisti> I don't think they should use Python to teach things.
19:22:59 <kallisti> I guess for an absolutely basic introductory course it's good.
19:24:37 <fizzie> Last year's experiment was apparently Scheme+Scala.
19:24:41 <kallisti> I recall reading SICP as being a crucial moment in my understanding of how programs work.
19:25:07 <elliott> fizzie: Scala? As an introductory language?
19:25:14 <elliott> fizzie: Those students are so fucked.
19:25:23 <kallisti> all intro students should start with Malbolge.
19:25:26 <elliott> kallisti: a critical moment which takes place in the future, one presumes
19:25:32 <kallisti> we need a new generation of skilled computer scientists!
19:25:55 <elliott> well it can't be the past, or you'd understand how prorgams work
19:26:15 <fizzie> elliott: I think Scala only for the latter half of the latter half (i.e. last quarter) of the full-year course, so I guess it doesn't quite count as introductory at that point.
19:26:30 <kallisti> kallisti is wrong sometimes -> he doesn't understand fundamentals of anything related to computer science
19:26:34 <shachaf> elliott: You got a problem with "magic"?
19:26:46 * shachaf figured out that that's how programs work long ago.
19:26:54 <elliott> kallisti: You seem to be confusing "wrong sometimes" with "repeatedly and persistently wrong about fundamental issues"
19:27:12 <elliott> shachaf: Being a wizard helps programming immensely.
19:27:26 <kallisti> SICP even uses a wizard metaphor!
19:28:07 <fizzie> elliott: Apparently it also goes so that they add an OO thing to SICP's metacircular evaluator, and from there proceed to Scala.
19:28:15 <elliott> fizzie: That's, um, special.
19:28:23 <fizzie> Isn't it just, though?
19:30:02 <fizzie> That was last iteration; current iteration is first half with SICP (except they still add objects to the SICP M-eval), and then second half is with Python+PyQt4+Pygame+PIL. Beyond that, there's no real info what the last half is, yet; it's going to be next spring.
19:30:39 <elliott> fizzie: PyQt4 will be interesting, too.
19:30:43 <elliott> All them signals and slots.
19:30:57 <elliott> I think your university am bad at choosing things to teach.
19:31:10 <kallisti> elliott: the IO vs. Turing Completeness thing came along briefly as the result of thinking about how differing IO capabilities can limit what can be accomplished in a single program. it's not like I had this nagging confusion for years.
19:31:14 <fizzie> Apparently they want to show some "real programming" to them.
19:31:38 <kallisti> elliott: I simply had an attack of theoretics vs. reality. :P
19:31:49 <elliott> kallisti: rly stop its like digging a hole
19:31:53 <elliott> doesnt stop getting deeper
19:31:59 <elliott> its time to crawl out.......
19:32:07 <kallisti> what does that mean in this metaphor.
19:32:47 <elliott> continuing to talk about it without defending yourself
19:34:23 <kallisti> elliott: I just dislike being insulted for what appears to be no reason, I think?
19:34:51 <elliott> welcome to #esoteric! here's my card
19:35:08 <elliott> also i am almost never sincere so there's that
19:35:16 <shachaf> elliott: When did you ever insult me?
19:35:16 <kallisti> elliott: I'm pretty sure that's mostly just a thing you do?
19:35:29 <elliott> shachaf: when did I ever NOT insult you
19:35:30 <shachaf> Other than all those times you called me a bad person and all that.
19:35:38 <elliott> kallisti: yes i'm ruler of #esoteric did you even LOOK at that card
19:36:02 <kallisti> you should get one of those artist business card company things
19:36:22 <shachaf> elliott: Behind the scenes, eh? oerjan is just a sock puppet?
19:36:30 <shachaf> Maybe you're lament's other identity.
19:36:36 <kallisti> shachaf: it's kind of an unspoken but well-known fact.
19:36:41 <elliott> shachaf: I... am... andreou.
19:36:57 * kallisti is the actual one who's pulling the strings.
19:37:11 <shachaf> elliott: "andreou" is missing an 'i'.
19:39:35 <Vorpal> it is funny how you all have delusions about that...
19:41:17 <Vorpal> kallisti: shachaf elliott: don't you realize? We are all but puppets in this clever game of zzo!
19:42:32 <shachaf> Vorpal makes a good point.
19:43:14 <elliott> Silence is a good point indeed.
19:44:16 <Vorpal> shachaf: of course, elliott is refusing to listen. But that is a common trait of those who can not face, or even comprehend, the truth.
19:45:15 <elliott> Someone link me to stuff about process migration
19:45:20 <shachaf> <Vorpal> kallisti: shachaf elliott: don't you realize? We are all but puppets in this clever game of zzo!
19:45:40 <shachaf> Assuming that's /ignore or something.
19:45:42 <elliott> shachaf: Sigh. Vorpal has clearly never heard of Dagoth Ur.
19:45:55 * shachaf does not want to get involved in #esoteric politics.
19:46:07 <Vorpal> I have. Both on the wiki. And from Morrowind
19:46:56 <Vorpal> kallisti: oh but so true
19:48:07 <kallisti> elliott: I recall Stackless Python being able to migrate processes, but that's probably not going to be a help to you.
19:52:01 <Vorpal> `echo there is the wiki Dagpoth ur and there is this: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Dagoth_Ur_%28god%29 (I assume one was named after the other, unsure which :P)
19:52:03 <HackEgo> there is the wiki Dagpoth ur and there is this: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Dagoth_Ur_%28god%29 (I assume one was named after the other, unsure which :P)
19:52:31 <Vorpal> `echo Quite. My AI is nothing like fungot's indeed.
19:52:32 <fungot> Vorpal: brutha yelled and pulled his head down and kissed the top of dorfl's head was still open in front of him sparks flashed off the steel rims of miss fnord spectacles. he hadn't even managed to take his shirt off!"
19:52:33 <HackEgo> Quite. My AI is nothing like fungot's indeed.
19:52:34 <elliott> Wow that Dagoth Ur guy is ugly.
19:54:10 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld* europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:54:33 <Vorpal> fungot: was that some discworld porn or something?
19:54:33 <fungot> Vorpal: " you don't know?' he said, ' you may fnord'
19:56:24 <fizzie> elliott: Dagoth Ur with jazz hands: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080705175522/elderscrolls/images/8/82/Dagoth.JPG
19:56:31 <fizzie> Dude knows how to party.
19:56:42 <elliott> Does he always look like that?
19:59:00 <fizzie> The face, pretty much (in all his one (1) appearances, anyway); the posture does change.
20:01:35 <Vorpal> `echo elliott: I *think* he is the final boss of Morrowind, but I haven't played the game through so I'm not certain. (Kind of hard to play it here on codu.org...)
20:01:36 <HackEgo> elliott: I *think* he is the final boss of Morrowind, but I haven't played the game through so I'm not certain. (Kind of hard to play it here on codu.org...)
20:01:58 <elliott> codu.org has like a gig of RAM, I'm sure it could run Morrowind.
20:02:10 <Vorpal> `echo Yeah but the GPU sucks.
20:02:15 <ais523> "Dagoth Ur, Mad God" is indeed the final boss of Morrowind
20:02:21 <ais523> I haven't played it either, but I've watched a speedrun
20:02:47 <Vorpal> ais523: how can you speedrun an open world? Is it just to end of main quest?
20:02:47 <fizzie> I, uh, Google image search for Dagoth Ur found some rule 63/34 material of him.
20:03:01 <ais523> strangely, Morrowind speedruns are really short; it starts off by getting infinite stats (by repeatedly crafting potions that make it possible to craft better potions, and hitting a singularity), then going directly to the final boss using what was intended as a joke item
20:03:09 <ais523> Vorpal: it has a final boss, you beat it, you win
20:03:17 <ais523> the world might be open, but it doesn't mean the game has no plor
20:03:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: "For any given male character, there is a female version of that character."
20:03:25 <Vorpal> ais523: what joke item?
20:03:36 <elliott> fizzie: Wait, let me try and be surprised.
20:03:53 <ais523> Vorpal: Scroll of Icatian Flight
20:04:22 <Vorpal> ais523: never even heard of it. What does it do?
20:04:43 <ais523> Vorpal: basically, it's like a really really /really/ big jump, that doesn't give you any protection against the impact of landing
20:04:47 <elliott> http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs45/i/2009/070/e/8/Lord_Dagoth_Ur_by_GothaWolf.jpg ;; This... bears little resemblance to the screenshots.
20:04:54 <elliott> Oh god there's a Minecraft skin.
20:04:55 <fizzie> ais523: Also that is a very confusing title (even though it is "official"), because Sheogorath is the Madgod, and Dagoth Ur is the Mad God.
20:04:59 <elliott> HOW FAR DOES THE MAD GOD RABBIT HOLE GO
20:05:14 <elliott> http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs41/f/2009/022/9/d/Dagoth_Ur_by_DagothUrWelcomesYou.jpg
20:05:44 <Vorpal> ais523: why does that help to bring you to the final boss?
20:06:00 <ais523> Vorpal: it's a really really /really/ big jump
20:06:08 <ais523> you can go straight to the place where the final boss is with it
20:06:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: The Morrowind speedrun is four minutes, 19 seconds. It's almost worth watching. (Except you may need to read the descriptions to understand what's going on.)
20:06:24 <ais523> and I think the infinite stats are there to survive the landing, as well as beat the boss, or perhaps another method's used to land
20:06:49 <elliott> ais523: I approve of this scroll
20:06:57 <fizzie> http://speeddemosarchive.com/Morrowind.html
20:07:13 <fizzie> The earlier one was seven and a half minutes or so.
20:07:27 <ais523> http://speeddemosarchive.com/Morrowind.html
20:07:32 <ais523> fizzie beat me, I Think
20:07:36 <Vorpal> fizzie: got a link to that one?
20:07:40 <ais523> Vorpal: oh, I just use direct http streaming, I think
20:07:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYia1irLWDU
20:08:00 <fizzie> I was rather assuming the speeddemosarchive page would have had a link to it, but weirdly not.
20:08:16 <fizzie> (I mean, it's their U-tube channel.)
20:08:29 <fizzie> (Unless I guess it might well be operated by someone else.)
20:08:33 <ais523> ah, it doesn't even use the potion glitch, it's a different one
20:08:39 <Vorpal> ais523: there is an obvious way to cut time right at the start of that speedrun. Go for a one-letter name instead
20:08:44 <ais523> fizzie: they don't officially use YouTube; in fact, many of the runs aren't there
20:08:45 <fizzie> ais523: I think that was the seven-and-a-half minute earlier record.
20:08:59 <elliott> <fizzie> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYia1irLWDU
20:09:14 <elliott> 4 minutes but a 7 minute video
20:09:40 <fizzie> ais523: Right, "SpeedDemosArchiveSDA" is just some random third-party guy who uploads videos from there.
20:10:06 <ais523> and only some, some are marked "do not upload to youtube"
20:10:12 <elliott> fizzie: So is the one you linked 4 minutes?
20:10:22 <ais523> elliott: SDA start timing from the first action to the last, but the videos show things like the loading screen at the start of the game and credits
20:10:31 <ais523> and because several people don't trust youtube to react sensibly
20:10:41 <ais523> there have been cases of people passing of others' speedruns as their own, etc
20:11:16 <elliott> @ask Vorpal How do you use a single package from [testing]
20:11:24 <Vorpal> ais523: fizzie: how did he get through that wall just outside the starting house
20:11:24 <lambdabot> Vorpal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:11:39 <ais523> Vorpal: he jumped through it
20:11:51 <elliott> I wonder if I have a message.
20:11:56 <ais523> solidity bugs are kind-of funny
20:12:02 <Vorpal> elliott: do not assume I'm ignoring you, just because you were ignoring me
20:12:15 <Vorpal> and I never tried. Maybe do it by abs to build said package?
20:12:16 <elliott> rather upsettingly low-quality video :'(
20:12:18 <fizzie> elliott: It claims to be, but I don't know how it's timed.
20:12:20 <Deewiant> elliott: Generallyc considered a bad idea; but put testing in your pacman.conf and pacman -S testing/<package>
20:12:33 <elliott> Deewiant: Okay, so how do I get GHC 7.2.2 without a bad idea
20:12:51 <fizzie> elliott: You may want to try the "Insane quality" http://dl.speeddemosarchive.com/Morrowind_SS_419_IQ.mp4 one then.
20:13:08 <Deewiant> elliott: Download the .tar.gz and install however you wish? :-P
20:13:18 <elliott> Deewiant: That's more of a good idea than using [testing]?
20:13:35 <Deewiant> elliott: But the bad idea I was referring to was that the typical suggestion is to use either all or none of [testing]
20:13:36 <fizzie> (They have "normal" (31.2M), "low" (10.6M), "high" (118M) and "insane" (249M).)
20:13:49 <Deewiant> elliott: In the case of GHC, it probably doesn't matter.
20:14:01 <fizzie> Ooh, I was already starting to talk about APT pinning, had forgotten the Arch thing.
20:14:02 <elliott> Deewiant: How long does [testing] take to trickle down, then.
20:14:09 <Deewiant> elliott: Unless there's a significantly more recent libc in [testing], or something.
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20:15:17 <elliott> Wow, you can swim quickly in Morrowind.
20:16:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: I got my Morrowind character so stuck inside a wall nothing except the console could extricate myself from it.
20:16:45 <elliott> fizzie: I like how this jump keeps getting interrupted by loading screens.
20:16:55 <elliott> Also that wasn't /that/ big a jump.
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20:17:21 <elliott> This ending bit looks spooky.
20:17:26 <fizzie> Maybe the seven-minute one had a bigger jump; I think I remember watching that earlier. Just starting this new one.
20:17:33 <Vorpal> ais523: has anyone done a minecraft speedrun?
20:17:48 <ais523> Vorpal: not to my knowledge, although there's been discussion about what the goal should be
20:17:55 <ais523> I've heard "all achievements" suggested semi-seriously
20:18:00 <Vorpal> ais523: it has an "end" now
20:18:02 <elliott> How is this guy walking this fast.
20:18:09 <ais523> and given that Minecraft's getting an ending added, or already has, there's an obvious category now
20:18:26 <elliott> ais523: "all achievements" in minecraft is near-trivial
20:18:31 <Vorpal> ais523: already has. I have done it.
20:18:38 <elliott> there's basically six trivial ones and then like one that takes hours but is easy
20:18:54 <elliott> minecraft is the least 1.0 game at 1.0 ever
20:18:56 <Vorpal> elliott: iirc there are a few more in 1.0?
20:19:08 <Vorpal> like 8 now and 1 that takes ages
20:19:31 <elliott> fizzie: Dagoth Ur talks disappointingly normally. :(
20:20:02 <Vorpal> elliott: TES had terrible voice acting up until skyrim
20:20:21 <elliott> I like how it's saying the YOU WIN stuff while Dagoth Ur rants in the background.
20:20:26 <elliott> Delayed sample-playing, I guess.
20:20:56 <Vorpal> kallisti: no they don't. They sound like canadians trying to sound nordic :P
20:21:06 <Vorpal> at least quite a few of them
20:21:14 <kallisti> Vorpal: sounds like nordic to me!
20:21:27 <elliott> ais523: btw, Minecraft's ending would be easy to speed-run too
20:21:28 <kallisti> you have a silly idea of what nordic sounds like.
20:21:48 <elliott> ais523: at least, it'd be downright trivial to TAS
20:21:54 <Vorpal> elliott: not THAT easy. What with the enderpearls and blaze rods
20:21:59 <fizzie> If you mean "walking this fast" in the later parts, it's after the "I use that bug [of switching a constant-effect item in and out repeatedly sometimes leaving the constant effect cumulatively on] on keening to gain an extreme amount of speed, --" part.
20:22:04 <kallisti> "congratulations. you've mined all that is."
20:22:22 <Vorpal> kallisti: ... where have you been?
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20:23:01 <Vorpal> kallisti: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lA4ohHhCsw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd5sUfTLhCU
20:23:08 <kallisti> Vorpal: or was that a question of where I've physically traveled?
20:23:37 <kallisti> WHY WOULD MINECRAFT HAVE AN OBJECTIVE.
20:24:04 <Phantom_Hoover> kallisti, make sure you see the Yogscast reading through it.
20:24:07 <kallisti> was it just something they added so that it would have an objective?
20:24:18 <kallisti> like, just a silly afterthought thing?
20:24:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Simon gives up around a third of the way in because it's so terrible.
20:24:19 <Vorpal> ais523: you might want to watch those two videos too?
20:24:26 <kallisti> is minecraft actually a decent game?
20:24:41 <Vorpal> kallisti: games don't /have/ to be objectives to be good.
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20:24:49 <Vorpal> kallisti: apart from like "survive"
20:24:57 <ais523> Vorpal: agreed, but they do have to have objectives to be speedrun
20:25:27 <elliott> kallisti: if minecraft is a decent game, it's not because of its ending
20:25:32 <Vorpal> kallisti: sure minecraft have a few: "don't die and lose your inventory" for example
20:25:44 <Vorpal> or "build a castle out of diamond blocks"
20:26:24 <ais523> elliott: you are arguably correct, but "speedrun" seems more common there
20:26:25 <Vorpal> kallisti: of course you make those objectives up. That is the good thing about it. Well apart from the survive one. You can't do much if you ignore that.
20:27:06 <kallisti> Vorpal: yes I already know the Minecraft fanboy spiel. :P
20:27:54 <Vorpal> ais523: you can't speedrun dwarffortress either
20:28:34 <kallisti> well you can try to destroy hell as fast as possible.
20:28:56 <Vorpal> kallisti: and kill everything in it
20:29:03 <Vorpal> to breach it isn't hard. To survive doing so is
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20:29:38 <kallisti> just mod the game so that you're moose demons instead of dwarves.
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20:29:57 <Vorpal> kallisti: ... then it isn't the same game
20:30:15 <kallisti> or find a way to simultaneously activate martial trance is like 50 dwarves or something.
20:30:26 <kallisti> this is the "use dwarves" as opposed to "use environmental traps" strategy.
20:31:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: Incidentally, Oblivion's been done in 11 minutes.
20:32:00 <Vorpal> fizzie: link (youtube or non-flash)?
20:32:35 <Vorpal> kallisti: so did you finish watching those videos?
20:32:52 <Vorpal> kallisti: the end text is horrible isn't it?
20:33:09 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfmdl9-tnSU -- the first 8 minutes are pretty boring, the interesting bit starts at around 8:10 when the player gets out of the sewers. (Also no audio and text is in French.)
20:33:16 <kallisti> I didn't actually pay much attention :)
20:34:21 <Vorpal> fizzie: the sound in the video is broken for me. Or doesn't exist
20:34:45 <Vorpal> oh, that was "no audio"
20:34:58 <Vorpal> not "no, audio and text is in French"
20:35:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: Right, and it seems to be cut at ten minutes.
20:35:26 <Vorpal> fizzie: so quite a terrible video then
20:35:43 <fizzie> Yes, but it's (according to some quick googling) the current record.
20:36:42 <fizzie> elliott: It's recorded with a demo version of some screenrecorder, or something like that. :p
20:37:06 <elliott> fizzie: What is that jumping.
20:37:08 <elliott> Is this the paintbrush thing?
20:37:27 <fizzie> I think it's some sort of "holding an object and jumping" glitch, since it didn't look like a paintbrush.
20:37:55 <elliott> So all this about Bestheda games being insanely buggy isn't joking then. :p
20:37:56 <Deewiant> Typical in games that allow that kind of carrying
20:38:11 <elliott> Deewiant: Can't they just simulate accurate physics? :'(
20:38:14 <kallisti> elliott weighs in on the matter: Oblivion decreed to be not a good reality emulator
20:38:19 <Deewiant> You can do it in Half-Life 2 / Portal as well
20:38:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If we extend AII's engine to 3D we have to make sure that doesn't happen ok thanks.
20:38:51 <elliott> fizzie: I'm not quite sure how the guy won the game there.
20:39:50 <Deewiant> It looks like he glitched into a door that you can't access until the end of the game
20:39:58 <Deewiant> Conveniently, it takes you to a very end-game area
20:40:21 <kallisti> brawl speedrun of 5 seconds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VRVkLpMevg :P
20:40:34 <kallisti> (not really. just a single 1v1 1 stock match)
20:40:35 <fizzie> IIRC, in the final battle you don't do much, Martin just summons the avatar of Akatosh and that's about it.
20:41:04 <Vorpal> <kallisti> brawl speedrun of 5 seconds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VRVkLpMevg :P <-- aaaargh the mono audio
20:41:18 <kallisti> Vorpal: arrrrgh how do you even notice stuff like that.
20:41:27 <Vorpal> kallisti: headphones. Just sound in one ear
20:41:34 <fizzie> "You need to look down, walk forwards towards the item, then just before the item jump and grab it. When you're at the peak of your jump you should hear a certain sound (Like when you land on the gound), when that happens, jump and grab the item again, repeat. I hope this explains it, it's pretty tricky to do :)" <- and that's how you fly by grabbing a heavy iron shield.
20:41:37 <kallisti> just with one audible channel.
20:41:51 <Vorpal> kallisti: or that is how it plays in firefox with html5
20:42:03 <Vorpal> kallisti: it is horrible anyway
20:42:20 <kallisti> do you just wear huge headphones while you're using computers
20:43:00 <olsner> Vorpal wears speakers and duct tape while using his computer
20:43:05 <oerjan> <elliott> ais523: *speedran? <-- erm it's run ran run, not run ran ran, right? and it's the last one which applies here.
20:43:22 <Vorpal> oerjan: it is actually that standard electrical black tape
20:43:28 <Vorpal> oerjan: if you know the type I mean
20:43:40 <olsner> <oerjan> black duct tape?
20:43:46 <kallisti> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VRVkLpMevg here's another one of these so-called "sacred combos" against an actual person, which is a bit more impressive
20:44:17 <elliott> kallisti: are any of these videos not rated e for epic
20:44:18 <Vorpal> olsner: buggered if I know. "eltejp" I think it is called
20:44:40 <Vorpal> olsner: probably biltema or such
20:45:16 <Vorpal> olsner: this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Electrical-tape_black.jpg
20:45:25 <kallisti> oh. http://youtu.be/gJkP6_yedKQ
20:45:44 <Vorpal> kallisti: my care about fighting games: -inf
20:45:47 <olsner> I think the sticking powers of electrical tape leave much to be desired
20:46:02 <Vorpal> olsner: well, it was enough for this
20:46:02 <kallisti> Vorpal: that's a pretty high magnitude there.
20:46:36 <Vorpal> kallisti: certainly. But It is clamped to the positive range in the calculations it is used in. So it ends up at 0
20:47:13 <kallisti> the thing about brawl though is that it's not a shitty fighting game.
20:47:32 <oerjan> Vorpal: _something_ tells me you don't distinguish nicks on o properly :P
20:47:54 <Vorpal> oerjan: you two have way too similar nicks
20:48:46 <Vorpal> olsner: anyway I need to get some proper replacements for the ear pads of these headphones. They are starting to wear out. Thankfully you can order replacements for these. All user serviceable headphones. I like that.
20:49:17 <Vorpal> I think they may be 7 or 8 years old by now
20:49:26 <olsner> ooh, I can order them? I think you'll have to order them for yourself anyway though :)
20:49:27 <kallisti> elliott: here's reality emulation for you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTJtMqkvetI
20:49:54 <Vorpal> olsner: that was "you can order" as in the Swedish "man kan beställa" :P
20:50:15 <olsner> sure, it means that in english too, in addition to the wrong meaning
20:51:14 <Vorpal> olsner: anyway I needed elastic tape in the repair, so electrical tape was perfect.
20:55:30 <Vorpal> olsner: besides I don't think I have any duct tape at home currently
20:56:33 <olsner> no duct tape? what kind of a student are you?
20:57:14 <fizzie> I used to only have black duct tape.
20:57:26 <Vorpal> olsner: I think I have some gaffer tape though :P
20:57:41 <lambdabot> GHC.Exts build :: (forall b. (a -> b -> b) -> b -> b) -> [a]
20:57:41 <lambdabot> Data.Graph.Inductive.Internal.Heap build :: Ord a => [(a, b)] -> Heap a b
20:57:41 <lambdabot> Graphics.Rendering.OpenGL.GLU.Mipmapping build1DMipmaps :: TextureTarget -> PixelInternalFormat -> GLsizei -> PixelData a -> IO ()
20:57:44 <Vorpal> olsner: technically it isn't :P
20:57:51 <olsner> aka gaffer tape, aka gaffatejp
20:58:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I wonder what percentage of duct tape is actually used on ducts.
20:58:09 <Vorpal> olsner: https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4vtejp <-- says it is a different product
20:58:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Or indeed what percentage of gaffer tape is used by gaffers.
20:58:17 <Vorpal> "Gaffatejp - från engelskans gaffer tape - är egentligen en helt annan produkt."
20:58:26 <kallisti> there's apparently some glitch in oblivion that allows you to turn one watermelon into a FLOATING WATERMELON SHITTER.
20:58:32 <kallisti> that just duplicates watermelons infinitely
20:58:44 <Vorpal> kallisti: "there's apparently some glitch" is true in general
20:58:48 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
20:58:57 <olsner> "Se även: Silvertejpsvapen" :D
20:59:19 <Vorpal> olsner: for the benefit of elliott that means "silver tape weapon"
20:59:41 <olsner> Vorpal: thanks, I didn't know what silvertejpsvapen meant until now
21:01:44 <oerjan> swedes make weapons out of silver tape? no wonder they stayed out of ww2
21:03:58 <olsner> we just gaffer-tape the hatches on the enemy tanks and wait for them to suffocate
21:06:09 <kallisti> I've come to the conclusion that Vorpal and I are completely opposite gamers.
21:06:11 <olsner> or if we're in an evil mood we open the hatch, fart down it, *then* gaffer-tape it shut
21:06:29 <fizzie> "While related to duct tape, [gaffer tape] differs in that it can be removed cleanly because it uses a synthetic rubber adhesive rather than a natural rubber adhesive." <- that is so very much not a case with my black duct tape, so deductively it's not gaffer tape but duct tape.
21:06:38 <oerjan> olsner: hey chemical weapons are illegal
21:06:42 <Vorpal> kallisti: I do enjoy games with plot as well. I just don't think that a *lack* of a plot makes it a bad game.
21:07:05 <kallisti> Vorpal: aside from DF I guess, you dislike all the games I like and I dislike the ones that you've talked about so far.
21:07:06 <pikhq> For me, I'd say it heavily depends on the game genre.
21:07:14 <Vorpal> kallisti: you dislike skyrim?
21:07:20 <pikhq> RPGs? The plot is most of the damned *point*.
21:07:23 <Vorpal> kallisti: what about GTA IV?
21:07:26 <kallisti> well, I guess not. I don't really play it though
21:07:33 <Vorpal> kallisti: I like GTA IV
21:07:43 <Vorpal> kallisti: haven't played earlier GTA games
21:07:51 <pikhq> Most things, though? "You are a plumber in the Mushroom Kingdom. Rescue the princess." works.
21:07:53 <Vorpal> kallisti: okay what about Magicka? I like it but I find it very hard
21:08:04 <Vorpal> kallisti: I really really like Bastion.
21:08:14 <olsner> fizzie: yeah, most "duct tape" is pure crap...
21:08:17 <kallisti> but we play magicka differently.
21:08:25 <olsner> it's supposed to be water proof and sticky even when wet etc, but I can vouch that inflatable pool repair using "duct tape" is impossible
21:08:30 <Vorpal> kallisti: what about Bastion though?
21:09:01 <Vorpal> kallisti: it is a wonderful RPG/adventure game. With unique story telling by dynamic narration.
21:09:13 -!- Taneb has joined.
21:13:02 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:14:16 -!- myndzi has joined.
21:15:57 <kallisti> does youtube have a "random video" feature?
21:18:30 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de).
21:19:27 <fizzie> There are some third-party services.
21:20:11 <Vorpal> fizzie: really, how can you get a list of all youtube videos to select from?
21:20:18 <fizzie> Presumably they crawl around the listings.
21:20:26 <Vorpal> kallisti: anyway I guess you could search for a topic and get a random video from?
21:20:32 <Vorpal> then just randomly click on the result page
21:20:59 <fizzie> http://www.flyhour.tv/ is one, they have an API for programmatical access.
21:21:14 <fizzie> They don't go into much detail on how they collect available videos.
21:21:22 <olsner> you could also go somewhere like /r/videos or /r/youtube and get a bunch of links (some of them might be new to you)
21:21:23 <fizzie> (Obviously it won't include everything.)
21:24:01 <Vorpal> hm I can't think of any RPG series that has quite as much backstory and lore as TES... Maybe Final fantasy?
21:24:11 <Vorpal> they have a lot of games
21:24:17 <Vorpal> so I guess there might be a lot of backstory?
21:24:34 <Deewiant> Almost each FF game is set in a different world of its own
21:24:45 <Vorpal> so not much there then
21:25:42 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
21:26:43 <fizzie> Also there's not *that* much per-game lore in there either.
21:27:33 <fizzie> Maybe I should train a fungot model on http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Books, there's certainly a lot of text. Though I doubt it'd be especially amusing.
21:27:33 <fungot> fizzie: " yep." ' ever met a watchman?'
21:28:23 <elliott> fizzie: Doesn't have Cats of Skyrim.
21:28:33 <Vorpal> fizzie: anyway the skyrim books are missing from what I see
21:28:41 <Vorpal> elliott: I haven't seen that book in skyrim yet
21:29:41 <Vorpal> elliott: here it is http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Cats_of_Skyrim
21:29:50 <elliott> http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Cats_of_Skyrim
21:30:00 <Vorpal> elliott: I beat you to it
21:31:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: Wow, http://uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Special:Export&action=submit "Add pages from category: Lore-Books" + [Add] + [X] Include only current revision + [X] Save as file + [Export] actually worked, and generated a four-megabyte XML file. I was so sure it'd be all "that's too much, forget about it".
21:31:32 <Vorpal> fizzie: there is also http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Category:Skyrim-Books
21:31:36 <elliott> fizzie: YOU FORGOT [[Category:Skyrim-Books]]
21:31:38 <Taneb> I'm getting better at Dungeons of Dredmor
21:31:51 <Vorpal> `echo elliott: what is it with you and that book?
21:31:53 <HackEgo> elliott: what is it with you and that book?
21:32:00 <elliott> fizzie: Also [[Category:Morrowind-Books]], [[Category:Oblivion-Books]].
21:32:03 <Vorpal> Taneb: come on... it is an easy game
21:32:17 <elliott> Although things like http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_1 may be problematic with their... fancy letters.
21:32:54 <fizzie> I'm not sure I want the differ-only-by-a-little versions of Morrowind books and Oblivion books; at least the Lore-space merges those. But I guess if Skyrim books aren't there (yet).
21:33:17 <fizzie> Adding "Skyrim-Books" added:
21:33:18 <fizzie> Skyrim:À_â_é_è_ê_ë_ù_û_ü_î_ï_ô_ç
21:33:18 <fizzie> Skyrim:À_é_è_è_ì_ó_ò_ù_É_È_Ì_Ó_Ò_Á_Ù
21:33:18 <fizzie> Skyrim:Á_é_í_ó_ú_ñ_ü_ç_¿_¡_ª_º_Á_É_Í_Ó_Ú_Ñ_Ü_Ç
21:33:23 <fizzie> The best pages, I'm sure.
21:33:36 <elliott> http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:123_Abc_Def_Ghijklmnop_Qrstu_VWXYZ_123456789
21:33:53 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Although things like http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries_1 may be problematic with their... fancy letters.
21:34:11 <elliott> 123 Abc Def Ghijklmnop Qrstu VWXYZ 123456789 is my favourite book.
21:34:29 <Vorpal> elliott: pretty sure it isn't in the game
21:34:37 <fizzie> It looks like a book-testing book.
21:34:43 <Deewiant> "unnecessary article, created by botwork; test book"
21:35:24 <elliott> http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Skyrim:123_Abc_Def_Ghijklmnop_Qrstu_VWXYZ_123456789&action=history
21:35:40 <Vorpal> elliott: anyway this is the "best" new book in skyrim: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Lusty_Argonian_Maid,_v2
21:36:28 <Vorpal> elliott: looks like it was removed but there is a cached copy
21:37:22 -!- HalfTauRSquared has joined.
21:40:31 <oerjan> 'The design imperative of Haskell's module system was "let's not care about this, but not look as silly as C, either".'
21:40:45 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/mv858/idea_for_haskell_books_and_tutorials/c349k4b
21:42:56 <elliott> "We wanted essentially the power of the ML module system without its complexity. Apart from named type equivalence, Haskell has the same module-level expressivity as ML."
21:42:59 <elliott> oerjan: haha, what a joker
21:43:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: I believe (don't have any first-hand experience) there's a reasonable amount of world background for WoW too, though not quite TES-y amounts. (At least in-game; out-game, they have something like 19 novels, compared to, what, two for TES?)
21:43:45 <fizzie> Though if you start counting out-game universe descriptions, the Star Wars games...
21:44:13 <fizzie> (At least WoW started as a game.)
21:44:25 <Vorpal> fizzie: yeah star wars didn't start as a game so...
21:44:44 <Vorpal> fizzie: what is the relation between WoW and Warcraft btw?
21:45:11 <fizzie> They're in the same universe, at least.
21:45:18 <fizzie> Though I suppose they've been retconning things.
21:48:38 <fizzie> I think chronologically it goes in the release order, more or less, at least for the major games; Warcraft, Warcraft II, Warcraft III, World of Warcraft.
21:48:58 <fizzie> With WoW extensions taking the story chronologically forward.
21:50:22 <Deewiant> The Warcraft II expansion is also in between II and III.
21:50:53 <Deewiant> Don't know about the expansion(s?) to III, but presumably chronological like all the others.
21:51:26 <fizzie> Wrath of the Lich King was released in mid-2007, Cataclysm at the end of 2010, and according to http://www.wowwiki.com/Timeline_(unofficial) five in-game years passed between those, so apparently it's not quite synchronized with real time.
21:52:29 <Vorpal> fizzie: what about that new one, with pandas?
21:52:30 <fizzie> A mumorpuger like that is a bit weird though, since don't they keep doing the same world-shattering events again and again and again by different groups?
21:52:57 * elliott doesn't quite understand how WoW works, chronologically and plotwise and things.
21:53:07 <elliott> I'm not sure how you can have a "plot" like this OMG UNIVERSAL CATACLYSM stuff.
21:53:13 <elliott> Since... people are going to complete it and stuff.
21:53:30 <fizzie> I don't think Mists of Pandaria is out yet? (Also it sounds like a joke.)
21:54:04 <Vorpal> fizzie: it could be a joke. Think I saw some footage of it from when it was announced though
21:54:16 <fizzie> elliott: I suppose it involves a rather larger amount of suspension of disbelief than the usual.
21:54:19 <Deewiant> It is quite ridiculous, though.
21:54:41 <fizzie> Deewiant: So it's a successful joke even if they're quite serious about it.
21:54:42 <elliott> fizzie: But what /happens/ after you "complete" it?
21:55:00 <Deewiant> fizzie: If you think of it like that, sure.
21:55:18 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> [a]
21:55:32 <fizzie> elliott: Then you complete it again and again, from what I've understood. But the happens-at-expansion-time world-changing events happen when they release the thing, and thereafter the world is different. I think. I haven't ever played WoW, so...
21:56:48 <Vorpal> so it seems nirnroot actually does regrow in skyrim
21:58:00 <elliott> @hoogle [(a,b)] -> ([a],[b])
21:58:01 <lambdabot> Prelude unzip :: [(a, b)] -> ([a], [b])
21:58:01 <lambdabot> Data.List unzip :: [(a, b)] -> ([a], [b])
21:58:24 <lambdabot> Control.DeepSeq rnf :: NFData a => a -> ()
21:58:29 <fizzie> (WoWWiki has 93221 pages.)
21:58:39 <elliott> fizzie: OMG put them into fungot.
21:58:39 <fungot> elliott: " that bloody hurt!" ' said rincewind encouragingly. " it's pretty long odds," said
21:58:56 <fizzie> It doesn't seem very appreciative of the idea.
21:59:49 <Taneb> But it's being inappreciative encouragingly!
22:00:39 <fizzie> Field Marshal's Satin Mantle is part of the Field Marshal's Raiment set. It is available for purchase from Captain Dirgehammer for the price of 9000. The Mosshide tribe is a gnoll tribe native to Wetlands. When Solved, Archaeology Fragments form Artifacts. Solved Artifacts can be found in Archaeology's Completed Artifacts tab. [A billion tables.] ToggleBag(bagNum); Opens or closes the specified bag. US realms are hosted for Blizzard in several datacenters acros
22:00:46 <fizzie> Yeah, that's the best possible training material indeed.
22:00:48 <kallisti> elliott: well once you complete cataclysm the cataclysm stops.
22:00:54 <fizzie> (Clicked the "random page" function a couple of times.)
22:00:56 <kallisti> so presumably in whatever pandera everything is fine.
22:01:06 <kallisti> though there is the issue of continuity.
22:01:19 <kallisti> you can still go kill the Lich King from the expansion before cataclysm
22:01:22 <elliott> kallisti: But how do you do a per-player-group plot in a shared world???
22:01:32 <elliott> (I guess the answer is "instancing, so much instancing".)
22:01:41 <kallisti> but how does it make sense to go kill deathwing again if there's no cataclysm.
22:02:01 <kallisti> elliott: well the lich king was easy because everything took place on a new continent.
22:02:09 <kallisti> cataclysm mostly takes place on the mainland.
22:02:11 <Vorpal> kallisti: I guess all MMORPGs with non-static worlds suffer from this
22:02:13 <fizzie> elliott: Choker of Endless Nightmares is an epic necklace. This item drops from Supremus in the Black Temple.
22:02:31 <Vorpal> fizzie: I'm against this idea
22:02:40 <kallisti> fizzie: are you playing WoW????
22:02:50 <Vorpal> kallisti: he said he wasn't
22:02:53 <fizzie> kallisti: I'm clicking the "random page" link on WoWWiki.
22:03:16 <fizzie> kallisti: To see how well it would work for fungot.
22:03:17 <fungot> fizzie: he was also, by the shape of a dragon and slaughtered a regiment of soldiers, fighting to get under the same roof there had been half bitten away. here was a member of the crew"
22:03:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Darkruned Battlegear set is the Tier 8 damage dealing death knight raid set. It is composed of any items from these sub-sets: Valorous Darkruned Battlegear - from armor tokens gained in 10-man Ulduar raids; Conqueror's Darkruned Battlegear - from armor tokens gained in 25-man Ulduar raids.
22:04:01 <Vorpal> fizzie: this is worse than europarl
22:04:10 <kallisti> the higher tier armor sets look pretty cool actually.
22:04:21 <fizzie> No, no. Zukk'ash Tunnelers can be found at the Writhing Deep in Feralas.
22:04:59 <kallisti> Vorpal: dude europarl is awesome shut your face;.
22:05:04 <Vorpal> fizzie: TES lore might be interesting
22:05:14 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
22:05:18 <fungot> kallisti: i should just like to stress two important points in terms of the directive to provide a framework for services of a general reduction in working time may encourage employment, competitiveness and social cohesion too. we need, a high level of consumer protection are concerned.
22:05:31 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
22:05:35 <fungot> Vorpal: i can't recall right now they're discussing haskell, which may or may not be a very difficult question; its solution became one of the better fnord.
22:05:48 <fizzie> I rather like europarl, to be honest. It sounds so politicky.
22:05:56 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
22:05:58 <Vorpal> but it quickly gets boring
22:05:59 <fizzie> Maybe at some point I'll retrain it with the latest version to stay current.
22:06:00 <fungot> kallisti: madam president, i echo the remarks of my colleague mr fnord, the very positive step, although it does not help to solve the problem by installing the necessary software. on the annual economic report is the fruit of the struggle against various forms of gangsterism, racketeering and of interfering with community assets and finances should be expended.
22:06:06 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
22:06:11 <fungot> Vorpal: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care, and stay...healthy! my husband...he's...he's...gone... but he left me precious gifts! the seeds...and our child, it's ancient history now...
22:06:16 <fungot> Vorpal: that no one was allowed to use the crane, enter any two of these letters, a b y. c.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
22:06:21 <fungot> Vorpal: from where does the hero alone have the power. " m, madam...! i am the master of war! i've seen all kinds of battles from here, step back, prometheus!
22:06:24 <fungot> Vorpal: as long as you keep crono in your heart, the day of lavos"... go to " leene square" 1000 a.d.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
22:06:27 <kallisti> "various forms of gangsterism"
22:06:56 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
22:07:00 <fungot> kallisti: mr president, the european authority must still produce unambiguous recommendations on scientific grounds. the general principle of the relative trimming back in our countries and not with those of my group, that we agree with parliament that the commission figures are aspirational. yes, i would say that we had better keep our zoos closed in those circumstances, it is not just the tar and nicotine yields which are lar
22:07:02 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
22:07:06 <fungot> Vorpal: but, we are far outnumbered! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's the kind! i've decided to stay with these humans! you're a traitor! you're not our king! but, we are far outnumbered!
22:07:06 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
22:07:22 <fungot> Vorpal: it's a machine that looks like you! did we do that??
22:07:24 <fungot> Vorpal: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends! got the red vest! got the red vest! got the red vest! got the red vest! got the red vest! got the red vest! got the red vest! got the red vest! got the red vest! got the red vest! got the red vest! got the red vest! got the red vest! got the red vest! got the red vest! got the red vest! got the red vest! got the red vest! got the red vest! got the r
22:07:32 <Vorpal> haven't seen that one before
22:07:41 <fizzie> ^style is sadly a built-in.
22:07:44 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
22:08:26 <Vorpal> yeah line numbers make little sense for pointing to befunge code. What with having vertical and diagonal code
22:08:59 <Vorpal> fizzie: your site is timing out for me :/
22:09:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: Me neither. That many red vests would be useful, though. Red mails even more so.
22:09:22 <Taneb> HalfTauRSquared, I got reasonably far in making a bot in Piet
22:09:24 <Vorpal> fizzie: don't you need at most one per party member though?
22:09:25 <Deewiant> A line number identifies half of the starting location of a code segment
22:09:34 <Deewiant> Seems sensible enough to me, that.
22:09:37 <Taneb> It would join the channel then do nothing
22:10:04 <Taneb> An bitmap file, yes
22:10:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, but normally you just get sort-of two. (One red vest and one red mail.)
22:10:09 <Taneb> I believe it was ppm
22:10:25 <kallisti> I think it's stupid that it costs money to transfer to different WoW servers
22:10:29 <Vorpal> fizzie: I thought you traded for them with the stuff from that hunting ground area?
22:10:41 <kallisti> it makes it so much more difficult to play with RL friends if you accidentally have characters on different servers.
22:10:50 <Vorpal> fizzie: don't remember there being a limit of one per type
22:10:52 <kallisti> or to play with random people you've met online but not on WoW
22:11:40 <Vorpal> kallisti: you play WoW?!
22:12:10 <kallisti> Spoken languages have a wide variety of organizations of numbers: the decimal number 92 is spoken in English as ninety-two, in German and Dutch as two and ninety and in French as four-twenty-twelve with a similar system in Danish (two-and-four-and-a-half-times-twenty).
22:12:19 <kallisti> note how English is the best one.
22:12:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, you got red vest/red mail from the sealed boxes with the amulet, so you can get only one (by upgrading, then getting the upgraded version, then going back to get the base version); what you get from the hunting ground trading is Ruby Vests, which just halve fire, instead of absorbing it.
22:13:01 <Vorpal> kallisti: no the Danish one is the most awesome one
22:13:14 <Vorpal> kallisti: anyway you mean the Swedish way. The English do it the Swedish way
22:13:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: A full-red-{mail,vest} party makes Son of the Sun quite a joke though.
22:13:37 <kallisti> Vorpal: don't push your Swedish superiority on me.
22:13:49 <kallisti> I'm too busy focusing on my American superiority.
22:13:59 <Vorpal> kallisti: just saying that you shouldn't call it the English way, it is used by many languages
22:14:29 <kallisti> add "based on the context of this thing that I quoted in which English is the only that does it that way" to my statement then
22:14:30 <Vorpal> anyway the French system is somewhat understandable: 4*20+12 = 92
22:14:37 <Vorpal> but the Danish system? Wtf
22:14:50 <fizzie> 4.5*20+2 is equally 92.
22:15:24 <Vorpal> I just failed at parsing it then
22:15:39 <fizzie> The dashes make it a bit confusingly put.
22:15:59 <Vorpal> I thought it was 2 & 4 & 0.5 * 20
22:16:00 <kallisti> actually hobbit numbers are the best.
22:16:11 <Vorpal> kallisti: what are those?
22:16:12 <fizzie> Right, two-and-(four-and-a-half-times-twenty) is not so obvious.
22:16:23 <Taneb> Hey, my epetition has 16 signatures
22:16:23 <kallisti> Vorpal: they have things like "eleventy"
22:16:47 <Taneb> Like a petition, but more e
22:16:59 <Taneb> e here standing for electronic, as in email
22:17:37 <fizzie> Wowza, Google MapsGL on this system is so many times slower than Google Maps Classic than it's not even funny how they say "our enhanced Maps provide improved performance".
22:17:39 <kallisti> Taneb: wow now that I'm not confused anymore I can formulate a reply.
22:17:42 <Taneb> The British Government decided to be all modern and stuff and start letting people create officially epetitions
22:17:43 <Vorpal> hm yogscast is doing a advent calendar
22:18:01 <fizzie> (Full CPU use and 1 FPS when scrolling.)
22:18:13 <Vorpal> fizzie: intel graphics?
22:18:28 <Vorpal> fizzie: where is this google maps gl then?
22:18:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's just the thing, it's got a Geforce whatever-it-was-old-but-anyway-it's-just-2D-polygons, maybe 7600 GT.
22:18:59 <fizzie> It's a "want to try something new?" box at maps.google.com left-side.
22:19:28 <fizzie> But this was with their own browser and everything.
22:20:05 -!- Taneb|Hovercraft has joined.
22:20:14 <fizzie> At work (with Intel graphics) it didn't even deign to run, was just "you don't fill the system requirements".
22:20:42 -!- Taneb|Hovercraft has quit (Client Quit).
22:21:30 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:21:40 <fizzie> That's funny & something I hadn't noticed earlier: in classic, the top-right "Satellite" icon (and the corresponding "Map" icon when in satellite mode) is nowadays actually showing the satellite/map image that's actually under the rectangle at that point in the map.
22:21:55 <fizzie> It's like a window into the satellite picture.
22:22:06 <fizzie> IIRC it used to be just an icon.
22:22:48 <Vorpal> fizzie: same here. And I have a Radeon HD 6800.
22:23:33 <Vorpal> so why does it run at like 4 FPS...
22:23:41 <Vorpal> which is only slightly better than your
22:24:10 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:25:59 <fizzie> If I zoom it in so that the buildings are visible, it manages to be even slower. (By a lot.)
22:27:38 <fizzie> Seems to draw them with a bit of a perspective effect, so that the middle of the map is directly-from-top, while you can see the "correct" sides of buildings at the edges.
22:27:53 <myndzi> i bet one of you guys can answer this more readily than i could
22:28:48 <myndzi> given the current (at any point in time) UTC unix timestamp, what math would you apply to get the value of that UTC timestamp when it's midnight in the philippines? (UTC+8, no DST)
22:30:22 <elliott> myndzi: Isn't it just taking the nearest multiple of whatever?
22:30:28 * elliott didn't pay much attention to the question.
22:30:35 <fizzie> I don't quite know what that means; does that mean you want to round to the nearest midnight?
22:31:07 <myndzi> server timestamp is in utc
22:31:15 <myndzi> i want to find what the server timestamp would be when it's midnight there
22:31:27 <myndzi> (i've solved it, but it took a while to wrap my head around it; i want to see if it's just me)
22:31:30 -!- Klisz has joined.
22:31:36 <fizzie> So... next midnight, or nearest midnight?
22:32:49 <fizzie> It sounds like getting the closest (or closest greater-than) t such that t = k*86400 - 8*3600, where k is an integer. (Modulo thinkos, anyway.)
22:34:30 <fizzie> So, uh, the Philippines-midnight immediately preceding the current timestamp, then, I guess.
22:37:29 <myndzi> of course, midnight might be between the current UTC timestamp and the current PH timestamp
22:38:33 <fizzie> What's a "current PH timestamp"? Seconds since Philippines 1970-Jan-01 00:00:00? That doesn't sound like a useful concept.
22:40:00 <oerjan> sheesh, everyone knows PH timestamps are in edinburgh
22:40:21 <myndzi> i mean, if you want local time in the philippines
22:40:30 <myndzi> and calculate the time for that stamp, yes?
22:41:54 <myndzi> ok, right now it's 1322894518 UTC and it's 1322923332 PH local time, yes?
22:42:35 <myndzi> i was asking how to calculate it, not what time it is ;)
22:42:44 <myndzi> i found the answer very unintuitive at first
22:43:09 <fizzie> I... suppose, though I've never really bothered to consider it like that. "Conceptually" the offset is added within the conversion from a timestamp into a local-time display format, and if you have a timestamp it's always "in UTC".
22:43:48 <Vorpal> timestamps are always UTC
22:43:54 <Vorpal> any timezone is just formatting
22:44:13 <Vorpal> myndzi: anyway you need to consider leap seconds too
22:44:24 <fizzie> Leap seconds aren't in "Unix time".
22:44:30 <fizzie> They just redo a second.
22:45:09 <Vorpal> fizzie: so if you want to know seconds that elapsed and there was a leap second in between you can't just subtract one timestamp from the other?
22:45:50 <elliott> Deewiant doesn't like leap seconds.
22:46:08 <fizzie> OTOH, you do get a day count with integer /86400, and a within-day offset in seconds with %86400 always.
22:46:34 <myndzi> UTC inherently accounts for leap seconds
22:47:28 <Vorpal> this is the same sort of issue as you get when using DST-affected timestamps, only not quite as annoying.
22:47:29 <fizzie> For some values of "accounts for".
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22:48:04 <Vorpal> fizzie: anyway should the rotation of earth ever speed up instead you might get leap seconds where you skip a second
22:49:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: Technically, though it is pretty unlikely. What's not unlikely is the continuous slowing down, leading to two leap seconds in every year by the 22nd century, the need for more than one leap second in some month in around two thousand years, and more than one leap second per day after "few tens of thousands of years". (Numbers from Wikipedia.)
22:49:28 <elliott> myndzi: Unix time isn't really UTC.
22:49:37 <elliott> It's seconds since 1 Jan 1970 UTC.
22:49:56 -!- Taneb|Hovercraft has joined.
22:49:59 <elliott> But it's, um, TAI seconds.
22:50:01 -!- Taneb|Hovercraft has changed nick to Ngevd.
22:50:09 <elliott> (That doesn't mean anything but it sort of does.)
22:50:19 <Vorpal> fizzie: so how much shorter was a day a few thousand years ago?
22:50:22 <elliott> (All I'm sayin' is that Unix time isn't "UTC" and therefore doesn't account for UTC leap seconds.)
22:50:32 <Ngevd> Is there such thing as a complete but directed graph, where every node is connected to every other node by a different arc to the reverse?
22:50:38 <Vorpal> fizzie: or is it rotation about sun rather than day-rotation?
22:50:45 <Vorpal> fizzie: in which case: how much shorter was a year
22:50:59 <Ngevd> And if so, what is it called?
22:51:02 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:52:00 <Ngevd> You know full well what I meant.
22:52:08 <Ngevd> But I would have done a very similar thing
22:52:25 <Ngevd> (The difference being, I call it Terence)
22:53:50 <oerjan> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CompleteDigraph.html
22:54:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's probably mentioned somewhere, but I can't find it right now; just that the long-term trend for the delta-length-of-day is +1.7 milliseconds/century. Though the length of the solar day keeps wiggling by couple of milliseconds.
22:55:08 <Vorpal> fizzie: so nothing majorly different then in the ancient Egypt?
22:55:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: Maybe they'll fit the planet with some rotational speed stabilization engines at some point.
22:55:26 * oerjan realizes that he's been confusing the terms digraph and bigraph
22:55:58 <Vorpal> fizzie: do we have any data for the length of the day back during when the dinosaurs lived? Maybe in plant fossil growth rates or something?
22:56:58 <myndzi> elliott: according to wikipedia (lols), unix time does in fact account for UTC leap seconds and certain unix timestamps can therefore be ambiguous
22:57:16 <oerjan> Vorpal: i'm pretty sure i saw something about that the other day
22:57:18 <myndzi> anyway, that's besides the point - i'm sure it doesn't really matter if it's a second or ten off; it's just a question about timezone conversions
22:57:21 <quintopia> if the moon vanished and the oceans dried up, would we have a delta length of day close to zero?
22:57:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: Wikipedia says the geological record suggests that 620 million years ago the day was 21.9+-0.4 hours, and there were 400+-7 solar days per year.
22:58:26 <oerjan> Vorpal: i was looking around for how fast the moon slowed down the earth
22:58:31 <fizzie> The length of a year has been nice and stable.
22:59:27 <fizzie> Tidal effects and such don't much affect how the rockball goes around the sun, after all.
22:59:51 <myndzi> heh, ok, i'll make this question really simple ;)
22:59:59 <myndzi> if you clip the current UTC timestamp to midnight
23:00:22 <myndzi> (divide by 86400, lose the fractional part, multiply again - or subtract the modulus)
23:00:31 <myndzi> would you add or subtract 8 hours
23:00:44 <myndzi> to find the number that the timestamp should be at midnight in PH
23:01:02 <Vorpal> myndzi: try it and see
23:01:05 <myndzi> ok, i'm glad i'm not a total idiot
23:01:26 <myndzi> i'm just trying to find out if i was just particularly stupid or if they really are that confusing
23:01:29 <myndzi> hazard a guess and a reason first ;)
23:01:42 <fizzie> I'd assume subtract; because then you will be pointing at eight-hours-before-UTC-midnight, which is when UTC+8 has a midnight.
23:02:00 <myndzi> fizzie: that's what i thought too ;)
23:02:15 <Vorpal> myndzi: and the real answer?
23:02:56 <myndzi> therefore midnight PH = midnight UTC+8
23:03:07 <myndzi> the subtraction tricked me because
23:03:11 <myndzi> i assumed i had to convert back
23:03:23 <myndzi> since UTC+8 hasn't happened yet
23:03:28 <myndzi> it'll take 8 hours for it to be "the correct timestamp"
23:03:35 <Vorpal> myndzi: why do you need to know this?
23:03:50 <myndzi> because i want to know the UTC timestamp for midnight in the philippines, i thought that was obvious ;)
23:03:59 <myndzi> so that i can divide time into days
23:04:05 <Vorpal> yes but why do you need to know this!?
23:04:21 <myndzi> so that i know when things happened in PH local time but store them in a consistent fashion on the server?
23:05:31 <Vorpal> myndzi: why do you care about the local time there I mean
23:05:40 <myndzi> i have employees there
23:05:50 <pikhq_> elliott: Unix time has a *really* perverse counting of, much worse than *even* UTC or TAI seconds since 1 Jan 1970.
23:05:56 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:05:59 <myndzi> i'm working on a web application that helps organize various pieces of work
23:06:05 <myndzi> and i want reporting on how effective people are being
23:06:10 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ t=`date +%s`; echo $(( (t - t % 86400) - 8*3600 ))
23:06:10 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ date -d '2011-12-02 00:00:00+08' +%s
23:06:10 <myndzi> so i need to decide when to draw the line
23:06:13 <myndzi> midnight is a natural choice
23:06:25 <pikhq_> elliott: Unix time is defined such that a day is precisely 86400s.
23:06:30 <elliott> myndzi: Why are you even dealing with Unix time directly?
23:06:32 <elliott> myndzi: Your language of choice will have a time-handling library in its stdlib.
23:06:43 <fizzie> Of course if you clip to the UTC midnight and then subtract eight hours, it's not going to be "the Philippines midnight that is before current time".
23:06:50 <myndzi> because it's stored that way in the database and a WHERE > timestamp is effective nad simple
23:06:54 <HackEgo> 2011-09-03.txt:02:06:02: <elliott> b[9<<20];main(a,z){while(scanf("%d",a++)>0);a=b;while(*a)a+=(a[*a]-=a[a[1]])?3:a[2];while(a>b)putchar(*--a);}
23:07:02 <fizzie> But it's going to be a philippines midnight.
23:07:03 <myndzi> and because i'm generally comfortable with math and it was apparently a simple problem
23:07:19 <pikhq_> elliott: And that a day corresponds precisely to a UTC day.
23:07:28 <myndzi> if you clip UTC to midnight and add 8 hours, you will have the beginning of the day "right now" in the philippines
23:07:29 <pikhq_> elliott: Because of this property, when there is a UTC leap second, Unix time goes forward or back.
23:08:01 <myndzi> Observe that when a positive leap second occurs (i.e., when a leap second is inserted) the Unix time numbers repeat themselves. The Unix time number 915 148 800.50 is ambiguous: it can refer either to the instant in the middle of the leap second, or to the instant one second later, half a second after midnight UTC. In the theoretical case when a negative leap second occurs (i.e., when a leap second is deleted) no ambiguity is caused, b
23:08:28 <elliott> myndzi: SQL can do times too...
23:08:34 <elliott> Even if the column is an integer.
23:08:54 <fizzie> myndzi: I'm pretty sure you won't. Assuming you start with a Unix timestamp, and treat the result as a Unix timestamp. See above: clip to midnight minus eight hours = 1322755200, UTC timestamp at "2011-12-02 00:00:00+08" = 1322755200.
23:08:55 <myndzi> so what? > is one of the simplest operations i can use
23:08:58 <myndzi> why make it more complicated?
23:09:05 <pikhq_> So, it's neither UTC nor TAI seconds since Jan 1. 1970.
23:09:20 <elliott> myndzi: Well, one day there might be another timezone, and another three timezones, and your code will start looking mighty unreadable.
23:09:25 <myndzi> go on google and look up the current PH local time
23:09:47 <myndzi> elliott: i'll deal with that when i get there; for now this is all i need, and i didn't know jack about SQL a week or two ago
23:09:55 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
23:10:13 <myndzi> so it's to be expected there's things i don't know - but that's beside the question of why it's so confusing to wrap my head around why the math is the way it is
23:10:37 <elliott> myndzi: Well, I guess you'll see how optimising getting things done as quickly as possible vs. as readably as possible for the long-term pays off in the end...
23:11:03 <myndzi> in order to support multiple timezones there are like 10 other things i need to do with the database and code
23:11:07 <myndzi> the way it is now won't support it
23:11:13 <myndzi> i didn't build it this way, i'm working to correct it
23:11:17 <myndzi> but this is extremely low on my priority list
23:11:24 <myndzi> so the simplest adjustment was as described
23:11:32 <myndzi> so that we can get work done while i make it more robust
23:11:39 <myndzi> does that meet with your approval? ;)
23:11:43 <fizzie> myndzi: I don't need to. Right now it's around 23:11 UTC, while it's 07:11 in Manila. The difference is not going to change. If you go back in time seven hours, you will arrive to 16:00 UTC, midnight in Manila.
23:11:49 <fungot> HalfTauRSquared: i should like to congratulate the rapporteur on their work. i would be pleased to provide it to the house as far as participants are concerned.
23:12:20 <myndzi> fizzie: i only offered it as an aid to understanding
23:12:31 <elliott> Is there something fizzie does not understand?
23:12:35 <myndzi> the unix timestamp that represents midnight in manila is UTC+8*3600
23:12:37 <pikhq_> myndzi: Just accept that civil time is Pain, Agony and Sorrow.
23:13:01 <pikhq_> And that you don't want to mess with it.
23:13:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:13:35 <myndzi> and it took me about two days to wrap my head around it, because i thought i had it working and then it wasn't verifiable until the next day
23:13:36 <fizzie> myndzi: That's just not true, unless we have differing definitions. If you have a Unix timestamp, clamp it to multiple-of-86400 it's going to represent UTC 00:00:00, which equals PST (Manila) 08:00:00.
23:13:40 <myndzi> i was just curious if i was particularly stupid
23:14:01 <myndzi> fizzie: test it for yourself
23:14:17 <myndzi> i know that i am correct, and this conversation has been interesting
23:14:22 <myndzi> and i feel less dumb now
23:14:24 <fizzie> myndzi: I just tested it for myself above.
23:14:26 <fizzie> $ t=`date +%s`; echo $(( (t - t % 86400) - 8*3600 ))
23:14:41 <fizzie> That's a clamped-to-midnight Unix timestamp, after subtracting eight hours.
23:14:45 <fizzie> $ date -d '2011-12-02 00:00:00+08' +%s
23:14:55 <myndzi> which is not the timestamp of midnight in the philippines
23:14:56 <fizzie> That's a midnight-in-Manila Unix timestamp.
23:14:58 <pikhq_> fizzie: It's going to represent UTC 00:00:00 or 23:59:60 (ambiguously)
23:15:01 <myndzi> it's the timestamp of midnight in washington
23:15:14 <myndzi> washington state, that is
23:15:26 <myndzi> where i happen to live, which made this more annoying :)
23:15:46 <myndzi> (that i didn't hit on the right combination of tests to see that it was the same as my local time)
23:16:04 <myndzi> the thing is fizzie, you are saying "my logic is correct, so my answer is correct"
23:16:09 <Vorpal> http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Third_Era <-- the problem with this is that it is tricky figuring out where the actual *games* take place
23:16:10 <myndzi> i agree that your answer reflects your logic
23:16:12 <myndzi> but your logic is mistaken
23:16:13 <fizzie> No, I'm saying I just tested it.
23:16:17 <Vorpal> like arena and daggerfall
23:16:32 <myndzi> in one hour it will be midnight in manila
23:16:51 <myndzi> midnight(UTC)-8 should be 11pm in manila right now
23:17:40 <fizzie> myndzi: I don't really understand what that means. But I can keep talking if you want.
23:17:42 <myndzi> excuse me, strike 'midnight' from that equation
23:18:19 <myndzi> //say $asctime($calc($gmt -8*3600), dd-mm-yyyy HH:nn.ss)
23:18:28 <myndzi> that's the current time of GMT-8hrs
23:18:44 <myndzi> when you subtract, it's going in the wrong direction :)
23:18:54 <fizzie> I didn't say anything about $gmt - 8 hours.
23:19:18 <fizzie> I said, if you round $gmt to last UTC midnight, you need to subtract 8 hours from that to get a value that is a midnight in Manila.
23:19:29 <myndzi> fizzie> myndzi: I'm pretty sure you won't. Assuming you start with a Unix timestamp, and treat the result as a Unix timestamp. See above: clip to midnight minus eight hours = 1322755200, UTC timestamp at "2011-12-02 00:00:00+08" = 1322755200.
23:19:44 <myndzi> and i am saying, you ADD 8 hours to get that value
23:19:45 <fizzie> Yes: clip to midnight, after which you subtract eight hours.
23:19:58 <fizzie> That's very much not the same as "subtract eight hours, then clip to midnight" or whatever.
23:20:08 <elliott> UTC midnight - 8 is obviously midnight in Manila, if that's what fizzie is saying.
23:20:15 <elliott> So I don't know what myndzi is saying.
23:20:16 <myndzi> clip to midnight, ADD 8 hours, that gives you the UTC timestamp of midnight in manila
23:20:21 <myndzi> that's what i'm saying
23:20:24 <fizzie> That I just refuse to believe.
23:20:34 <fizzie> And you did not demonstrate anything related to that above.
23:20:36 <myndzi> i'm not here to convince you
23:20:45 <myndzi> i was here to see if it was as unintuitive to a bunch of esoteric programmers as it was to me
23:20:52 <elliott> myndzi: You are insane, PST is UTC+8.
23:20:56 <elliott> Therefore you subtract 8 from UTC to get PST.
23:21:06 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines
23:21:11 <elliott> - Summer (DST)not observed (UTC+8)
23:21:15 <myndzi> i meant pacific standard time
23:21:20 <elliott> While talking about Manila?
23:21:21 <myndzi> i didn't know that philippines was PST too
23:21:24 <fizzie> PST is also Washington time, yes, it's awfully ambiguous.
23:21:27 <elliott> <myndzi> clip to midnight, ADD 8 hours, that gives you the UTC timestamp of midnight in manila
23:21:31 <myndzi> funny that they're both eight
23:21:35 <elliott> It's subtract 8 hours, because Philipines is UTC+8.
23:21:44 <elliott> This is basic arithmetic.Y
23:21:48 <myndzi> it will be midnight in manila
23:21:58 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?gcx=c&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=time+in+manila
23:22:06 <myndzi> i just knew 4pm was significant
23:22:32 <myndzi> you are both mistaken, but i have made a number of typing mistakes and have been unclear, so please ignore everything except the conclusion
23:22:36 <myndzi> and if you want me to attempt to explain i will
23:22:42 <elliott> <elliott> myndzi: You are insane, PST is UTC+8.
23:22:42 <elliott> <elliott> Therefore you subtract 8 from UTC to get PST.
23:22:49 <myndzi> if you want to believe i'm wrong, you're welcome to, but i have no interest in arguing further
23:22:56 <fizzie> myndzi: Why don't we just try out the clipping thing. Current Unix timestamp is around 1322868093. Clipped to UTC midnight, that's 1322784000.
23:23:04 <myndzi> i have tried out the clipping thing
23:23:08 <myndzi> i have implemented a correct and functioning solution
23:23:23 <myndzi> it took me a long time to wrap my head around why the solution was correct
23:23:30 <myndzi> and i wasn't comfortable implementing it until i understood
23:23:45 <elliott> myndzi: Do you believe it completely impossible that you have implemented a solution that is incorrect and have just made a mistake in thinking it was?
23:23:45 <myndzi> he doesn't have infinitely wide arms
23:23:47 <fizzie> Subtracted eight hours, it's 1322755200; added eight hours, it's 1322812800. What are those (Unix) timestamp values in UTC+8?
23:24:00 <myndzi> elliott: when i subtracted, two hours ago it was giving me stats from yesterday
23:24:02 <elliott> I mean, "I don't want to do anything but educate you mortals as to why I definitely got it correct." is not a very compelling position if you are wrong.
23:24:03 <myndzi> my workers don't work today
23:24:08 <elliott> myndzi: So you made another mistake elsewhere.
23:24:09 <myndzi> there's no way that one of them wrote 12 articles
23:24:18 <myndzi> when i added, it was correct, but i couldn't understand why
23:24:40 <myndzi> now i understand why, but i am tired of people telling me so unambiguously that i'm wrong and they're right
23:24:42 <elliott> Yes, adding 8 to UTC gives PST. But you want the /previous/ midnight.
23:24:43 <fizzie> If you subtract eight hours, it's going to give you a midnight in manila; it's not going to be the *previous* midnight, though.
23:24:48 <myndzi> which is why i don't want to argue further
23:24:54 <fizzie> It might be the one before.
23:24:57 <elliott> We are not denying that your conversion returns a midnight in Manila.
23:25:04 <fizzie> Because you can end up subtracting more than a day.
23:25:04 <elliott> We are just telling you that it is not always the _correct_ midnight.
23:25:46 <oerjan> <myndzi> funny that they're both eight <-- and since 3*8 = 24, that means there's also an 8 hour difference in some direction from washington to the philippines
23:26:22 <Vorpal> TZ=UTC-8 date --date="@1322755200" <-- note that UTC-8 is UTC+8 in TZ afaik.
23:26:22 <myndzi> it may be that i need to subtract 16, but that would be more than subtracting 8, and subtracting 8 had the window too far
23:26:28 <Vorpal> fre dec 2 00:00:00 UTC 2011
23:26:33 <myndzi> +8 is definitely correct
23:27:01 <myndzi> clip to midnight and add 8 will always give the correct UTC timestamp of midnight local time in manila
23:27:29 <fizzie> If you do "(now - now%86400) + 8*3600" where 'now' is the current Unix timestamp, and convert that to the local time in UTC+8, that will not be a midnight.
23:27:48 <Vorpal> fizzie: what is the local timezone for PH?
23:28:44 <Vorpal> TZ=Asia/Manila date --date=@1322755200
23:28:44 <Vorpal> fre dec 2 00:00:00 PHT 2011
23:28:47 <Vorpal> well that one is correct
23:28:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: I've seen it called both PST and PHT; "TZ=Asia/Manila date" seems to give times in PHT.
23:28:54 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Subtracted eight hours, it's 1322755200;
23:29:00 <Vorpal> which is the one I used
23:29:12 <Vorpal> myndzi: so it is subtract then
23:29:21 <Vorpal> assuming fizzie didn't miscalculate it
23:29:39 * myndzi composes unambiguous proof
23:29:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a midnight all right. It's not going to be midnight "today" as "today" is measured in Manila; but "add eight hours" is not going to be a midnight at all.
23:29:48 <Vorpal> HalfTauRSquared: hi, who are you?
23:30:01 <myndzi> wait, i may have a simple explanation
23:30:18 <fizzie> (Well, it's "midnight today" when "now%86400 + 8*3600" is less than 86400.)
23:30:26 <Vorpal> HalfTauRSquared: but you are new in this channel? Just not someone who changed nick?
23:30:26 <myndzi> UTC local time at the meridian is the same as Manila local time in manila, correct?
23:30:43 <Vorpal> HalfTauRSquared: and in this channel?
23:31:20 <myndzi> i can do it in three statements :)
23:31:23 <Vorpal> HalfTauRSquared: so why are you here? Surely not for esolang discussions? This channel is seldom on topic
23:31:27 <HackEgo> 2011-11-25.txt:00:19:46: <PiRSquared> @tell PiRSquared17 hi
23:31:37 <myndzi> 1) UTC local time at the meridian is the same as Manila local time in manila: agree?
23:31:52 <fizzie> I don't understand what that means.
23:31:54 <Vorpal> myndzi: "UTC local time" is not a concept that makes sense
23:32:30 <myndzi> GMT = UTC for this discussion, good?
23:32:35 <Vorpal> myndzi: GMT is a specific timezone located in UK
23:32:40 <myndzi> i don't remember the difference or if GMT is affected by DST etc.
23:32:51 <myndzi> somewhere on this earth
23:32:55 <myndzi> UTC is equal to local time
23:32:58 <pikhq_> myndzi: "GMT local time" is a bit like saying "Integer non-integer"
23:33:01 <myndzi> somewhere near grenwich, right?
23:33:11 <Vorpal> which earth is "this" earth?
23:33:18 <myndzi> now you're just trollin ;)
23:33:18 <elliott> <HalfTauRSquared> Longtime reader of esolang wiki
23:33:19 <elliott> <HalfTauRSquared> only twice before
23:33:21 <Phantom_Hoover> GMT is explicitly the local time at the Greenwich meridian.
23:33:28 <myndzi> i'm trying to find a common point we can proceed logically from
23:33:37 <fizzie> myndzi: Before you get into it, can you explain this for us:
23:33:38 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ now=`date +%s`; TZ=Asia/Manila date --date=@$(( now - now%86400 - 8*3600 ))
23:33:38 <fizzie> Fri Dec 2 00:00:00 PHT 2011
23:33:38 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ now=`date +%s`; TZ=Asia/Manila date --date=@$(( now - now%86400 + 8*3600 ))
23:33:38 <fizzie> Fri Dec 2 16:00:00 PHT 2011
23:33:44 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: s/local time/mean solar time/
23:33:57 <myndzi> ok. so can we agree that the unix timestamp is defined as UTC, and UTC is the same as local time in greenwich?
23:33:58 <Vorpal> myndzi: I find fizzie's calculations there pretty good proof he is right
23:33:58 <HackEgo> 2011-11-24.txt:22:37:28: <HalfTauRSquared> .::HHaallffTTaauuRRSSqquuaarreedd!!~~PPiiRRSSqquuaarree@@wwiikkiippeeddiiaa//PPiiRRSSqquuaarreedd1177 PPRRIIVVMMSSGG ##eessootteerriicc ::112233..
23:34:06 <pikhq_> "local time" usually refers to the locally defined civil time.
23:34:07 <Vorpal> but you might need to add another day
23:34:16 <pikhq_> myndzi: There is not a bijection between UTC time and Unit time.
23:34:32 <Vorpal> myndzi: only half time of the year
23:34:40 <myndzi> bijection wut, unit time wut?
23:34:43 <Vorpal> myndzi: and there are leap seconds
23:34:54 <myndzi> oh christ. let's make the unit minutes then
23:34:55 <elliott> pikhq_: I don't think you're clearing matters up any.
23:35:04 * elliott would like to see myndzi explain fizzie's simple example too.
23:35:05 * myndzi would like to see elliott explain fizzie's simple example too.
23:35:13 <pikhq_> A %86400=0 Unix time refers to two distinct UTC times.
23:35:18 <Phantom_Hoover> <myndzi> ok. so can we agree that the unix timestamp is defined as UTC, and UTC is the same as local time in greenwich?
23:35:29 <myndzi> for the purpose of this discussion, timezone increments are all that matter
23:35:33 <myndzi> and leap seconds will not affect that
23:35:35 <Phantom_Hoover> No, because local time in Greenwich observes BST, while UTC does not.
23:35:54 <pikhq_> And there's only a loose correlation between UTC and GMT, and yes, local time in Greenwich isn't even GMT.
23:35:58 <fizzie> myndzi: What's there to explain in my example? It outputs the two "clamped to midnight and then subtracted/added 8 hours" timestamps in Manila time.
23:36:10 <fizzie> And the subtracted one happens to be a midnight.
23:36:37 <myndzi> fizzie: i know that the math in your example doesn't work. i know that the explanation i am trying to give is correct. i haven't taken the time to analyze why your specific line of code is producing results that appear to be correct but are not
23:36:49 <myndzi> i can only assume that you are asking the wrong question, getting a correct answer to that question, and assuming the question is correct
23:36:57 <elliott> "Your counterexamples will fall under the divine weight of me telling you I'm right!"
23:37:02 <fizzie> It's one line of code: it's not much to analyze.
23:37:06 <Vorpal> elliott: pretty much yeah .D
23:37:14 <elliott> fizzie: TWO lines of code, actually!
23:37:16 <myndzi> i've been trying to give you guys a simple explanation for liek 20 minutes
23:37:17 <Phantom_Hoover> It seems to be "I don't understand basic arithmetic, neither does anyone else."
23:37:18 <elliott> It's easier to just repeat yourself.
23:37:27 <Ngevd> That isn't a real function.
23:37:28 <myndzi> and you've been so pedantic that i can't even find a starting point ;)
23:37:41 <myndzi> in that mess, i don't want to muddy the waters by analyzing something else in the middle of it
23:37:52 <myndzi> please just work with me and then point out where my logic is incorrect?
23:37:56 <Vorpal> myndzi: give us the simple calculations demonstrating you are right
23:38:02 <Vorpal> myndzi: that is all the will work
23:38:03 <pikhq_> myndzi: With time, you have two choices: be pedantic or wrong. :)
23:38:18 <Ngevd> It's handy and convinient
23:38:39 <Ngevd> For I am making an Eodermdrone interpreter!
23:38:42 <Vorpal> seems real enough to me
23:38:53 <elliott> Ngevd: No you're not. Many have claimed to.
23:38:54 <myndzi> 1) UTC is not affected by daylight savings time, leap seconds and the like don't interfere with our discussion of time zones, and Manila local time is not affected by DST either
23:39:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Haven't we established that it's manifestly possible, just quite hard.
23:39:31 <Ngevd> s/making/attempting to make/
23:39:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It is the Curse.
23:39:40 <Vorpal> <myndzi> 1) UTC is not affected by daylight savings time, leap seconds and the like don't interfere with our discussion of time zones, and Manila local time is not affected by DST either
23:39:43 <elliott> fizzie: I'm still interested in getting to the bottom of this, if you still have it in you.
23:39:58 <Vorpal> myndzi: Asia/Manila had DST up until 1978
23:40:10 <myndzi> we aren't talking about the past, we are talking about the present
23:40:11 <Phantom_Hoover> You need to unravel the Ulman algorithm for the subgraph isomorphism problem from that utterly awful paper.
23:40:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you realise that the words 'is' and 'was' have distinct meanings, right?
23:40:38 <myndzi> please consider all statements to be in the context of standards presently being followed in the relevant locations
23:40:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: I took is as time independent here.
23:40:42 <myndzi> does that cake care of it for you?
23:41:06 <Vorpal> myndzi: then sure, I'm okay with it
23:41:20 <Vorpal> I'll wait for the problem pikhq_ is having with it
23:41:49 <pikhq_> myndzi: Unless the *only* thing you want to do is get a UNIX time stamp mapping to the midnight in Manila local time.
23:42:03 <Vorpal> pikhq_: pretty sure that is what he want yes
23:42:05 <myndzi> that is precisely what i want to do
23:42:22 <pikhq_> Then hack away, but realise what you're doing would be *infinitely* better handled by language libraries.
23:42:43 <myndzi> i already covered that part. it's the question that's interesting, not the crutch of a solution
23:43:03 <myndzi> 2) manila local time is UTC + 8 hours
23:43:15 <pikhq_> Presently it is defined as such, yes.
23:43:16 <myndzi> i'm using 'manila local time' so as to avoid confusion by saying PST
23:43:29 <Sgeo> I wonder if I could model LSL programs as though some statements were in fact in an IO monad
23:43:40 <myndzi> 3) therefore, whatever time it is in UTC, that value plus 8 is the same time as manila local time
23:44:14 <HalfTauRSquared> Can an admin protect http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Excela&curid=1863&action=history ?
23:44:21 <Vorpal> hm... or maybe *checks*
23:44:30 <elliott> HalfTauRSquared: no, they'll move on to another page if that is done
23:44:35 <elliott> that's what those spambots do
23:44:38 <myndzi> i basically restated #2
23:44:40 <Ngevd> Who is paying these spambot makers?
23:44:48 <elliott> I think fizzie gave up. :(
23:44:50 <myndzi> we can look at this another way
23:44:53 <pikhq_> myndzi: Yes, one does add 8 to UTC to get the Manila local time.
23:44:58 <myndzi> let's look at it like an equation
23:45:03 <pikhq_> And one subtracts 8 from Manila local time to get UTC.
23:45:10 <myndzi> UTC + 8 = manila local time
23:45:33 <myndzi> humantime(UTC + 8) = humantime(manila local time)
23:45:34 <pikhq_> Thus, 00:00:00 UTC+8 is the same as 16:00:00 UTC
23:45:43 <Vorpal> myndzi: define humantime
23:45:45 <elliott> myndzi: Are you still insisting that we're saying that your formula does not produce Manila midnights?
23:45:47 <elliott> Because it certainly does, always.
23:46:06 <fizzie> "Clip to midnight, add eight hours" does not.
23:46:06 <myndzi> humantime is just the time of day
23:46:29 <Vorpal> useless definition, but whatever
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23:46:41 <myndzi> unixtimestamp(2:00 UTC) + 8 = unixtimestamp(2:00 manila local)
23:46:42 <Vorpal> I use unix times in my daily life of course
23:46:52 <HalfTauRSquared> i dollars to anyone who generalizes this so it works with the moons of Jupiter
23:47:08 <Vorpal> myndzi: <fizzie> "Clip to midnight, add eight hours" does not.
23:47:36 <pikhq_> myndzi: No, that's unixtimestamp(10:00:08 manila local)
23:47:54 <myndzi> scuse me, jesus christ
23:48:20 <elliott> fizzie: Manila local time = UTC+8; UTC midnight + 8 = Manila midnight.
23:48:21 <fizzie> elliott: No, it doesn't.
23:48:29 <Vorpal> <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ now=`date +%s`; TZ=Asia/Manila date --date=@$(( now - now%86400 - 8*3600 ))
23:48:29 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Fri Dec 2 00:00:00 PHT 2011
23:48:29 <Vorpal> <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ now=`date +%s`; TZ=Asia/Manila date --date=@$(( now - now%86400 + 8*3600 ))
23:48:29 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Fri Dec 2 16:00:00 PHT 2011
23:48:29 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ now=`date +%s`; TZ=Asia/Manila date --date=@$(( now - now%86400 - 8*3600 ))
23:48:29 <fizzie> Fri Dec 2 00:00:00 PHT 2011
23:48:30 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ now=`date +%s`; TZ=Asia/Manila date --date=@$(( now - now%86400 + 8*3600 ))
23:48:30 <fizzie> Fri Dec 2 16:00:00 PHT 2011
23:48:38 <Vorpal> those calculations are still accurate
23:49:00 <elliott> God, this is a trainwreck of embarrassment.
23:49:02 <fizzie> elliott: And I didn't give up: I just wrote http://p.zem.fi/3uti.c which actually does the conversation he wanted, the Manila midnight for the current "today" in Manila. (Pure "clamp to midnight, subtract eight" may go one day too far back.)
23:49:08 <Vorpal> myndzi: see those calculations or shut up
23:49:13 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, the 3-body problem is solvable for specific cases, right?
23:49:13 <elliott> fizzie: You expect him to believe you?
23:49:15 <fizzie> $ TZ=Asia/Manila ./test
23:49:16 <fizzie> 1322841600 = Sat Dec 3 00:00:00 2011
23:49:19 <fizzie> elliott: Not really, no.
23:49:26 <fizzie> elliott: I mean, it's even more lines of code.
23:49:26 <lambdabot> expecting letter or digit, operator or ")"
23:49:26 <lambdabot> ambiguous use of a non associative operator
23:49:39 <lambdabot> expecting letter or digit, operator or ")"
23:49:39 <lambdabot> ambiguous use of a non associative operator
23:49:50 <Vorpal> fizzie: p.zem.fi is super-slow over ipv6
23:49:53 <elliott> HalfTauRSquared: lambdabot responds to /msg
23:50:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: Ah, it could well be broken.
23:50:15 <myndzi> i don't understand your bash shell language, unlike you guys i have fairly little esoteric language experience
23:50:20 <Vorpal> fizzie: and over ipv4 too actually...
23:50:21 <myndzi> i just like to see the interesting things you talk about
23:50:28 <myndzi> so i have no idea what that line of code is supposed to be doing
23:50:38 <elliott> http://p.zem.fi/3uti.c <-- C code.
23:50:41 <myndzi> not in enough technical detail to determine if it is what i want or not
23:50:42 <Ngevd> Are all three Sopio decks + expansion packs worth 30
23:50:47 <myndzi> ah, i was talking about the pastes above
23:50:50 <pikhq_> myndzi: It's fairly simple. now=`date +%s` sets "now" to the UNIX time stamp.
23:50:57 <Vorpal> PING momus.zem.fi (83.150.124.64) 56(84) bytes of data.
23:50:57 <Vorpal> --- momus.zem.fi ping statistics ---
23:50:57 <Vorpal> 30 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 29232ms
23:51:07 <Ngevd> The answer should be one of "What's Sopio?" and "Hellz yeah!"
23:51:14 <pikhq_> myndzi: TZ=Asia/Manila date --date=@ will return the Manila local time corresponding to a UNIX time stamp.
23:51:18 <Vorpal> fizzie: same over ipv4
23:51:37 <myndzi> you're not doing all the math, part of it is being converted by the system
23:51:54 <fizzie> myndzi: now=`date +%s`; sets $now to current Unix timestamp. $(( now - now%86400 - 8*3600 )) just calculates the expression: now - now%86400 - 8*3600, "clamp to midnight and subtract eight hours". And then that is converted back from Unix timestamp into Manila local time.
23:51:55 <pikhq_> myndzi: $(( now - now%86400 - 8*3600 )) takes the UNIX time stamp, clamps it to midnight, and subtracts 8 hours from that.
23:52:12 <myndzi> i assume that 'now' in --date=etc. is manila local time, in which case subtracting 8 does indeed give you UTC
23:52:28 <pikhq_> myndzi: The "now" is *THE CURRENT UNIX TIME STAMP*.
23:52:32 <elliott> fizzie: Surely you should stop talking about the bash and focus on the C, which there can be no ridiculous disagreements about.
23:52:40 <fizzie> No, 'now' is a Unix timestamp. There's no "Unix timestamp in Manila local time", such a thing does not exist.
23:52:59 <fizzie> elliott: I'm really not sure that it helps, especially since it doesn't do the same simple illustration but a more complex thing.
23:53:01 <myndzi> to localize time to some location
23:53:02 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Leaving...).
23:53:09 <myndzi> you take the UTC value and add or subtract some number
23:53:19 <myndzi> that value represents local time in that location
23:53:26 <Vorpal> I'm giving up at this point. He will discover it when the people over there starts complaining....
23:53:28 <myndzi> what the fuck do you call that value to unambiguously refer to it?
23:53:39 <elliott> fizzie: I think every time you get close to an understanding myndzi is just going to reset the "conversation".
23:53:40 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever done such a thing.
23:53:41 -!- copumpkin has joined.
23:53:57 <fizzie> I mean, you have Unix timestamps, and then you have local times, the latter which have a timezone associated with them.
23:54:02 <fizzie> And then functions to convert between them.
23:54:13 <myndzi> sure. but you have human-readable time formats (month day year hour minute second)
23:54:23 <myndzi> and you have bigass multi digit integers
23:54:58 <pikhq_> myndzi: Look: now=`date +%s` fetches the UNIX time, which is the same regardless of what time zone you're in. $(( now - now%86400 - 8*3600) clamps that UNIX time to the UTC midnight, and subtracts 8 hours from it. date --date=@ renders that UNIX time stamp in Manila local time.
23:55:14 <fizzie> I suppose you *can* add an offset to a Unix timestamp and then manually convert that to local time in some timezone using integer % and / manually, but that sounds like an easy place to make mistakes.
23:55:28 <pikhq_> Well, in "local time"; TZ=Asia/Manila makes it Manila local.
23:55:38 <pikhq_> Thus: fizzie's calculations are correct.
23:56:17 <myndzi> it's pretty weird then, that when i used that exact formula, it wasn't correct until 4pm my time which is 8am manila time
23:56:43 <myndzi> i give up, i'm just making an ass of myself at this point and you guys are too certain to consider anything i say, if i could ever manage to use words that you would except to have the meaning i intend
23:56:48 <myndzi> enjoy your day, i'll stop shitting it up
23:56:48 <fizzie> I have to point out (for the umpteenth time) that the Manila midnight you get from that will not going to be the current midnight for "today" in Manila, since it may end up subtracting more than a day.
23:57:10 <elliott> myndzi: Speaking for myself, the only way this day is going to get un-shitted up is by reaching an agreement.
23:57:37 <myndzi> then i will have to consider extremely carefully, check myself more (even though i've been at this for two days), and come back with something you can't argue with
23:57:44 <pikhq_> myndzi: That's quite weird considering fizzie's work is time zone independent. :)
23:58:00 <myndzi> i will have to explicitly define my terms and what i want to accomplish
23:58:04 <myndzi> because the misunderstanding may lie there
23:58:15 <myndzi> so give me a bit and i'll see if i can do that satisfactorily
23:58:16 <pikhq_> The only time zone dependent portion is the "output the resulting UNIX time as Manila time" bit.
23:59:39 <fizzie> myndzi: For the umpteenth+1 time, though, what I did up there is not what you want to accomplish, it's not the "Manila midnight for 'today' in Manila". It's going to be a Manila midnight, but it can be for the preceding day. But adding 8 hours will be a Unix timestamp corresponding to Manila 4pm, not midnight, even though it might (at least for part of the day) fall into the correct day.
23:59:45 <Vorpal> pikhq_: and using 8 there. As opposed to 9 for example