00:00:00 the operation might not be a generally useful one, but I can't see why it wouldn't be /possible/ 00:00:02 Haskell is defined in terms of existing OSes 00:00:11 compiling @lang to C doesn't work because @lang /is @/ 00:00:26 the most you can do is bundle it with an interpreter (= a @ simulator) 00:00:26 elliott: not quite 00:00:38 I suspect you're making a mistake I made in Feather 00:00:42 but it's not a very easy mistake to describe 00:01:09 well, give it a try 00:03:45 umm… a language typically has pure-computation parts, and an API 00:03:47 ais523: I mean, if you can take the @ part out of @lang, then @lang is broken 00:03:51 to the outside world 00:04:12 if you metacircular both of them, then you don't have an interp at all, just a cheat-interp 00:04:27 whereas you can't do the API without implementing it in terms of itself, for a self-interp 00:04:36 what I mean is, you have to implement @lang in something 00:04:42 I'll agree with that 00:04:51 parts of that will be pure computation, and can be lifted back to the original language, in a sense 00:04:53 but what has this got to do with compiling @lang to C? 00:04:58 replacing the parts of it that aren't computation with API calls 00:05:30 err, it's pretty hard to explain 00:05:31 ais523: those API calls are @ 00:05:35 elliott: ah, OK 00:05:39 but you can't make a language out of /just/ API calls 00:05:50 well, probably (/me remembers the MOV-based OISC) 00:05:53 indeed, but you can't do anything with /just/ computation 00:05:57 right 00:06:02 both parts are needed 00:06:05 so you can't write an @ simulator in @lang and compile it to another OS 00:06:06 and one of the parts, it's meaningful to compile it 00:06:09 because you need the bit that's @ 00:06:30 I wasn't talking about an @ simulator; but rather, an @lang impl in @lang that calls into the surrounding @ just for API calls 00:06:50 you don't implement @lang to simulate @; @lang's at a higher level 00:07:03 anyway, OK, but I'm not sure what the use of that would be 00:07:06 now, you can attempt to restrict those API calls to the smallest subset you can, which is what you'd do to implement @ onto a new system 00:07:14 it might not be useful, I'm just saying it's not meaningless 00:07:14 elliott: remind me, why did you go for @ as the name? 00:07:20 Vorpal: @ isn't the name 00:07:24 no, you wouldn't, you'd just implement the @ machine in a handful of pages of whatever code 00:07:27 oh right 00:07:29 now I remember 00:07:30 it's a metasyntactic variable standing for what the name will eventually be 00:07:43 anyway, maybe it's possible, but such a compiler would necessarily have to be very ugly 00:07:48 and probably only work on very carefully-written programs 00:07:52 I suggest the name involve "hubris" in some way. 00:07:54 easier just to write the C directly for such a simple program 00:08:18 perhaps 00:08:42 ais523: if it /isn't/, then @'s abstract machine needs replacing 00:09:01 right 00:09:05 I'd imagine @lang without @ would be a bit like Haskell without IO: does computation, and can't do anything at all with it. 00:09:15 pikhq_: yes, that's about right 00:09:21 pikhq_: worse 00:09:25 pikhq_: no data structures 00:09:42 elliott: how are the data structures bootstrapped? 00:09:42 elliott: Okay, so Haskell without Prelude then. 00:09:44 you'd basically be reduced to reimplementing everything you want to use from scratch 00:10:02 reimplementing the data structures from scratch is exactly the sort of thing I'd expect the @ simulator in @ to do 00:10:07 that's usefully compilable 00:10:10 I wouldn't 00:10:15 because there are no data structures to implement 00:10:25 well, they have to come from somewhere! 00:10:26 I don't think you understand how simple the abstract machine is meant to be 00:10:48 I do, I think; I'm disagreeing with you where the boundaries between the abstract machine and the rest of the world are 00:10:56 as in, I think there's something in between that you're repeatedly claiming doesn't exist 00:11:27 I think you just don't understand how @ is structured 00:11:56 perhaps 00:13:16 -!- sllide has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:14:11 -!- tiffany has quit (Quit: nyu~). 00:14:49 ais523: anyway, code in @ is basically completely unportable, by design 00:15:42 Which sense of "portable" do you mean? 00:15:47 Between OSes, or between CPUs? 00:16:04 pikhq_: OSes 00:16:31 Ah. Yeah, a port of @ code would either be a complete rewrite or contain an implementation of the relevant portions of @. 00:19:44 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:20:11 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:29:49 Do you have any link for @lang? I don't find it in the Esolang language list. 00:29:55 Or do you mean @! ? 00:30:49 oh dear :) 00:31:05 @lang is not technically esoteric, it's just more esoteric than almost all languages on the wiki 00:31:05 pong 00:31:11 hi lambdabot = 00:31:25 @lang 00:31:25 pong 00:31:29 @ping 00:31:29 pong 00:31:31 @whatever 00:31:32 Unknown command, try @list 00:31:34 hm 00:31:37 why would @lang do that 00:31:40 elliott: any idea? 00:31:45 @ling 00:31:45 @abcd 00:31:46 pong 00:31:46 Invalid argument '' 00:31:46 @ping 00:31:46 pong 00:31:51 any 4 letter word? 00:31:52 lambdabot does error-correction 00:31:52 @bong 00:31:53 Maybe you meant: bug ping 00:31:58 hm 00:32:03 right 00:32:09 @bing 00:32:09 pong 00:32:18 elliott: I don't see how lang → ping is reasonable though 00:32:34 Probably ping is the unique closest match. 00:32:36 dunno :) 00:32:39 elliott: so hm 00:32:42 @abcd 00:32:42 Invalid argument '' 00:32:49 well, I guess there was none close enough 00:32:53 @ngng 00:32:53 pong 00:32:54 @long 00:32:54 pong 00:32:57 @nnng 00:32:57 pong 00:33:00 @pang 00:33:01 pong 00:33:01 @gggg 00:33:01 Unknown command, try @list 00:33:08 @nnnn 00:33:08 Unknown command, try @list 00:33:10 @mmpf 00:33:10 Maybe you meant: map unpf 00:33:13 @png 00:33:14 pong 00:33:17 right 00:33:24 it seems to be quite lenient 00:33:33 @pimf 00:33:34 Maybe you meant: ping time 00:33:41 @list 00:33:41 http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS 00:33:49 @lost 00:33:49 http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS 00:34:05 @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw 00:34:05 "\"#$%&'()*+,\"" 00:34:09 okay 00:34:32 €protontorpedo 00:34:36 @protontorpedo 00:34:36 how does haskell compare to j2ee? 00:34:39 @protontorpedo 00:34:40 is it fun to program in haskell? 00:34:41 @spell lang 00:34:42 I see 00:34:55 @v 00:34:55 "\"" 00:34:57 @v 00:34:57 "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\" 00:35:01 @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw 00:35:01 "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\" 00:35:03 right 00:35:47 @gsite 00:35:48 Empty search. 00:36:03 Hmm, lets see how close this is: 00:36:06 @goatse 00:36:06 Unknown command, try @list 00:36:11 @hoogle+ (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] 00:36:11 Data.Monoid appEndo :: Endo a -> a -> a 00:36:11 Data.ByteString append :: ByteString -> ByteString -> ByteString 00:36:11 Data.ByteString.Char8 append :: ByteString -> ByteString -> ByteString 00:36:13 @hoogle (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] 00:36:14 Prelude map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] 00:36:14 Data.List map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] 00:36:14 Control.Parallel.Strategies parMap :: Strategy b -> (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] 00:36:16 err 00:36:18 okay 00:36:33 I see they return different results, but what is the pattern here 00:36:42 @help hoogle 00:36:42 hoogle . Haskell API Search for either names, or types. 00:36:43 @help hoogle+ 00:36:43 hoogle . Haskell API Search for either names, or types. 00:36:46 hoogle+ knows more libraries? 00:36:57 well, hoogle+ didn't know Prelude 00:36:59 looks like @hoogle+ doesn't return stuff @hoogle does 00:37:01 maybe it's just "more results" 00:37:02 hm 00:37:05 @hoogle+ a -> a 00:37:05 Control.Applicative liftA :: Applicative f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b 00:37:05 Data.Traversable fmapDefault :: Traversable t => (a -> b) -> t a -> t b 00:37:05 Prelude fmap :: Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b 00:37:08 @hoogle a -> a 00:37:09 Prelude id :: a -> a 00:37:09 Data.Function id :: a -> a 00:37:09 GHC.Exts breakpoint :: a -> a 00:37:12 okay 00:37:12 @hoogle (<*>) 00:37:13 Control.Applicative (<*>) :: Applicative f => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b 00:37:16 *shrugs* 00:37:23 @hoogle+ (<*>) 00:37:29 guess not 00:37:44 elliot seems to be right with "more results" 00:37:46 @dice 00:37:46 unexpected end of input: expecting number 00:37:52 @dice 10 00:37:52 10 => 10 00:37:54 @dice 10 00:37:54 10 => 10 00:37:56 okay 00:37:58 what 00:38:01 @dice 3 00:38:02 3 => 3 00:38:04 @dice 3 4 00:38:04 3 4 => 34 00:38:08 @dice D3+4 00:38:09 unexpected "D": expecting number 00:38:22 I don't think it is dice as in d20 00:38:37 @dice 2d20 00:38:38 2d20 => 33 00:38:42 err 00:38:43 @dice 2d20 00:38:43 2d20 => 12 00:38:48 @dice 1d3+4 00:38:48 1d3+4 => 6 00:38:50 @dice 1d3+4 00:38:50 1d3+4 => 7 00:38:51 or maybe it is 00:38:51 @dice 1d3+4 00:38:51 1d3+4 => 5 00:39:01 @dice d6 00:39:01 unexpected "d": expecting number 00:39:02 @dice 1d6 00:39:03 1d6 => 1 00:39:04 @dice 1d6 00:39:04 1d6 => 6 00:39:05 @dice 1d6 00:39:05 1d6 => 5 00:39:09 yes seems so 00:39:09 You may not leave off the 1 00:39:13 twice11: I noticed 00:39:18 @dice 1d6 * 2 00:39:18 unexpected "*": expecting digit, "+" or end 00:39:20 @dice 1d6 * 1d9 00:39:20 unexpected "*": expecting digit, "+" or end 00:39:21 Pah. 00:39:35 elliott: I don't remember seeing that in GURPS 00:39:43 but it was ages ago I played that 00:39:45 I don't know any RPG multiplying dice... 00:39:54 and D&D I only played through NWN1, and it hides most of that 00:40:10 twice11: See, that's an opportunity for innovation! 00:40:25 -!- Sgeo|web has quit (Quit: Page closed). 00:40:32 @dice 2d20-90 00:40:33 unexpected "-": expecting digit, "+" or end 00:40:35 @dice 2d20+90 00:40:35 2d20+90 => 121 00:40:45 wait, only a bonus? No penality? 00:40:54 penalty* 00:40:57 @dice 2d20+ -90 00:40:57 unexpected "-": expecting number 00:41:13 @dice 2d20 + -1 * 90 00:41:13 unexpected "-": expecting number 00:41:20 What! 00:41:21 @slap lambdabot 00:41:21 I'd rather not; lambdabot looks rather dangerous. 00:41:24 @slap lambdabot 00:41:24 I don't perform such side effects on command! 00:41:29 @slap Vorpal 00:41:29 * lambdabot submits Vorpal's email address to a dozen spam lists 00:41:32 ... 00:41:36 that is a side effect 00:41:37 @slap test 00:41:37 *SMACK*, *SLAM*, take that test! 00:41:45 @slap ChanServ 00:41:45 * lambdabot secretly deletes ChanServ's source code 00:41:52 @slap lambdabot 00:41:52 * lambdabot activates her slap-o-matic... 00:41:54 @slap some-user-that-doesnt-exist 00:41:54 * lambdabot activates her slap-o-matic... 00:41:55 well 00:42:01 @slap lambdabot 00:42:01 * lambdabot will count to five... 00:42:09 hm 00:42:13 @slap some-user-that-doesnt-exist 00:42:13 * lambdabot loves some-user-that-doesnt-exist, so no slapping 00:42:28 guess it was random that it refused to slap itself 00:42:31 also: 00:42:34 @slap Madoka-Kaname 00:42:35 * lambdabot karate-chops Madoka-Kaname into two equally sized halves 00:42:45 I think we are even now 00:42:50 I guess there is a rate limit on slapping. 00:42:57 @slap lambdabot 00:42:57 * lambdabot slaps lambdabot with a slab of concrete 00:43:09 OK, Vorpal was right. 00:43:12 @b52s 00:43:12 Watch out for that piranha. There goes a narwhale. HERE COMES A BIKINI WHALE! 00:43:16 what 00:43:18 @b52s 00:43:18 Watch out for that piranha. There goes a narwhale. HERE COMES A BIKINI WHALE! 00:43:19 @b52s 00:43:20 Girl from Ipanema, she goes to Greenland 00:43:24 okay 00:43:27 I don't get it 00:43:32 @help b52s 00:43:33 b52s. Anyone noticed the b52s sound a lot like zippy? 00:43:37 http://www.google.co.uk/search?gcx=c&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Watch+out+for+that+piranha.+There+goes+a+narwhale.+HERE+COMES+A+BIKINI+WHALE! 00:43:37 aha 00:43:37 http://www.google.co.uk/search?gcx=c&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Girl+from+Ipanema%2C+she+goes+to+Greenland 00:43:43 @help yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw 00:43:43 V RETURNS! 00:43:46 right 00:44:08 elliott: ah lyrics 00:44:12 from a specific group 00:44:13 @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw 00:44:13 "\"#$%&'()*+,\"" 00:44:15 @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw 00:44:15 "\"#$%&'()*+,\"" 00:44:16 @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw 00:44:17 Just 'J' 00:44:19 なんでやねん 00:44:34 Madoka-Kaname: what, please speak English 00:44:54 wtf 00:44:54 -!- Sgeo|web has joined. 00:45:18 Madoka-Kaname: Anyway: I think the story behind that was that some old version of the eval feature of lambdabot used an internal variable called v, which sometimes caused issues. Then it was renamed yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw. 00:45:23 I don't think it is in use any more 00:45:40 @palomer 00:45:40 (_|_) 00:45:41 @palomer 00:45:42 Blargh! 00:45:46 @help palomer 00:45:46 palomer. Sound a bit like palomer on a good day. 00:45:51 Vorpal, and somebody decided to use it? 00:45:52 whoever that is 00:46:03 Madoka-Kaname: well, v could be used by mistake quite easily 00:46:10 Madoka-Kaname: the other one? Not so much 00:46:17 Malicious action =p 00:46:32 @v 00:46:32 "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\" 00:46:38 Madoka-Kaname: I don't think it ever broke anything as such. It just made it return the wrong answer sometimes. 00:46:38 @v 00:46:38 "\"#$%&'()*+,\"" 00:46:55 Seems to be identical to the long command... 00:47:02 seems so yes 00:47:27 @help messages? 00:47:28 messages?. Tells you whether you have any messages 00:47:29 @let a $ b = b a 00:47:29 @help messages 00:47:29 .L.hs:94:17: 00:47:29 Ambiguous occurrence `$' 00:47:29 It could refer to either `L.... 00:47:29 messages. Check your messages. 00:47:31 right 00:47:42 > reverse$"abc" 00:47:43 "cba" 00:47:47 @let a $ b = b a 00:47:48 .L.hs:94:17: 00:47:48 Ambiguous occurrence `$' 00:47:48 It could refer to either `L.... 00:47:50 :< 00:47:59 > let v = 5 in v = 4 00:48:00 : parse error on input `=' 00:48:03 eh 00:48:06 too lazy to fix, night 00:48:36 >let 1+1=3;3+1=7 in 1+1+1 00:48:43 > let 1+1=3;3+1=7 in 1+1+1 00:48:44 7 00:48:59 amazing 00:49:08 twice11: I wouldn't have expected that 00:49:12 ancient haskell joke. 00:49:23 twice11: how does that even work? 00:49:24 Didn't come up with that myself. 00:49:32 Vorpal: it rebinds (+) locally 00:49:35 You locally define your own addition function. 00:49:38 oh, smart 00:49:53 yeah, very nice 00:49:59 > let f 1 1 = 3; f 3 1 = 7 in f (f 1 1) 1 00:50:00 7 00:50:02 f = (+) 00:50:06 elliott: quite 00:50:12 elliott: a bit confusing at first :) 00:50:50 @help kind 00:50:50 kind . Return the kind of a type 00:50:54 @let testtestt = 3 00:50:55 Defined. 00:50:58 > testtestt 00:51:00 3 00:51:01 @kind Maybe 00:51:02 * -> * 00:51:06 eh right 00:51:13 @kind Maybe Integer 00:51:14 * 00:51:17 right 00:51:20 @undefine testtestt 00:51:43 > testtestt 00:51:44 Not in scope: `testtestt' 00:51:53 OK, undefining works, so... 00:52:03 twice11: @undefine is a blunt weapon 00:52:05 it clears the whole namespace 00:52:28 @define x = 4 00:52:33 @define y = 5 00:52:39 @undefine y 00:52:41 > x 00:52:41 x 00:52:46 yeah. 00:52:55 But it is good to have such a thing... 00:53:04 @let 1+1=3;3+1=7 00:53:05 Defined. 00:53:10 > 1+1+1 00:53:10 Ambiguous occurrence `+' 00:53:11 It could refer to either `L.+', defined at @undefine 01:19:34 -!- ive has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:25:13 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:27:50 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:59:16 @hoogle Integer -> [Bool] 01:59:17 Data.Time.Calendar.Julian isJulianLeapYear :: Integer -> Bool 01:59:17 Data.Time.Calendar.OrdinalDate isLeapYear :: Integer -> Bool 01:59:17 Data.Time.Calendar isLeapYear :: Integer -> Bool 01:59:22 @hoogle Int -> [Bool] 01:59:22 Prelude replicate :: Int -> a -> [a] 01:59:22 Data.List replicate :: Int -> a -> [a] 01:59:22 Prelude drop :: Int -> [a] -> [a] 02:06:50 Madoka-Kaname: /msg 02:08:27 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:08:33 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:20:13 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 02:36:10 > sort [2, 1] 02:36:11 [1,2] 02:46:14 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:46:17 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 02:46:17 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:52:09 pikhq: I'm not sure how to do @'s DHT. 02:53:00 Nor am I. 02:53:18 pikhq: Woooooo 02:53:34 pikhq: The problem with something like Chord is that who gets to host what data is essentially arbitrary, which is kind of lame 02:53:58 My understanding of DHT is just shy of "MAGIC" 02:54:02 So. :) 02:54:12 -!- Jafet has joined. 03:03:03 OK, what's the best way for a person who hates JACK and Pulse to transfer the audio output of an ALSA application over a network >_> 03:05:02 What's wrong with JACK 03:05:07 Apart from being impossible to understand 03:05:17 Mainly the impossible-to-understand thing. 03:05:31 Every time I've used it it's taken about three seconds to go from "ahh" to "... wtf?" 03:05:46 Gregor: http://alsa.opensrc.org/Network 03:06:08 elliott: That solution doesn't work with my audio card, it can't capture from "mixer" (all output) 03:06:21 You could just install Pulse for like three seconds :P 03:06:57 I stopped hating jack after I stopped trying to get it to work 03:08:19 What's the command to make an ALSA program use JACK? 03:11:25 -!- ive has joined. 03:13:10 jackoff (sadly not) 03:13:29 lol 03:29:21 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:17:14 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:21:37 -!- Sgeo|web has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:23:22 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 04:23:54 "I need to create a list of all the elements in a binary search tree in reverse order" 04:24:02 tree? reverse? 04:24:15 this has to be a trick question because it doesn't specify that it's complete. 04:27:34 Early today I wrote some things on paper, I think I could work these, new transformers in Haskell, which are called ProductT and SumT. 04:30:31 data ProductT a b c = ProductT { leftPT :: a c, rightPT :: b c }; Now I think Monoid x => ProductT (Constant x) is a monad transformer. 04:31:35 Do you think this is correct? Or did I make a mistake? 04:33:16 CakeProphet: If it's a SEARCH tree then it's ordered. 04:34:54 Gregor: ah, right. 04:34:57 that's what she means. 04:35:34 Gregor: but then what is "reverse order", uh... descending? 04:36:26 I guess an in-order traversal, outputting elements to a stack. 04:38:42 Presumably just the opposite order of whatever the comparison function ordered it as in the first place :P 04:38:47 And you could just do a RTL traversal. 04:39:54 Gregor: I don't think she covered RTL but that would work equally well as pushing to a stack (or prepending to a list) 04:40:19 Now I looked, I think the "ProductT" I have is really like the Data.Functor.Product.Product but there is already a Data.Monoid.Product and since I knew about that at first, I gave mine a different name. 04:41:11 Gregor: this class is in the nomenclature of C++, thus "list" means linked list. 04:41:19 STL/C++ 04:45:23 Gregor: Alternately, you could make it a binary search tree linked list. 04:45:33 Because more confusing data structures are wonderful. 04:48:17 For a ring of sets (actually predicates in this case, meaning what is element of a set), is this correct? instance MonoidMinus (Predicate t) where { mpinverse = id; }; 04:49:12 * shachaf switches to #esoteric, sees ... MonoidMinus ..., cautionsly switches in the opposite direction. 04:49:45 What's a MonoidMinus? Ah, just a monoid with inverses? 04:49:59 did someone say group 04:50:15 (If so, that's usually called a "Group".) 04:50:17 Yes. 04:50:51 shachaf: Yes. Actually, I do have a "Group" class which does that; "MonoidMinus" is for the inverse of the "MonoidPlus", where "MonoidPlus" is what "Monoid" instance is distributive over. 04:51:25 I also have "Semiring" and "Ring" to indicate they follow additional properties. 04:51:40 Wait, what's MonoidPlus? 04:51:54 Now I told you, isn't it? 04:52:24 I'm not sure I understood. 04:52:45 "MonoidPlus" is what "Monoid" instance is distributive over. 04:52:51 For example, the MonoidPlus for Product acts like the Monoid for Sum. 04:53:08 monqy: Oh! Why didn't zzo38 say so. 04:53:19 zzo38: What are the MonoidPlus laws? 04:54:20 shachaf: They are the monoid laws and the distributive laws. Semirings have some additional laws; if they follow those laws, make it also instance of Semiring (which has no methods of its own). 04:55:34 Specifically: mpappend mpempty x = x; mpappend x mpempty = x; mpappend x (mpappend y z) = mpappend (mpappend x y) z; mpconcat = foldr mpappend mpempty; mappend x (mpappend y z) = mpappend (mappend x y) (mappend x z); mappend (mpappend y z) x = mpappend (mappend y x) (mappend z x); 04:55:59 Semirings have these additional laws: mappend mpempty x = mpempty; mappend x mpempty = mpempty; mpappend x y = mpappend y x; 05:10:17 -!- Sgeo|web has joined. 05:23:27 people! 05:23:33 choose a business card design! 05:23:36 http://us.moo.com/design-templates/business-cards/pack/black-white.html 05:23:36 http://us.moo.com/design-templates/business-cards/pack/urban-abstraction.html 05:23:37 http://us.moo.com/design-templates/business-cards/pack/lets-talk.html 05:23:37 http://us.moo.com/design-templates/business-cards/pack/chris-keegan-business-cards.html 05:23:39 http://us.moo.com/design-templates/business-cards/pack/perfect-paisley.html 05:23:41 http://us.moo.com/design-templates/business-cards/pack/luminous-nature.html 05:23:49 no 05:25:16 augur: Observation: None of the "perfect paisley" business cards are paisley. 05:25:28 Gregor: i know 05:25:32 people dont know what paisley is 05:25:37 c'est la vie 05:31:43 -!- Sgeo|web has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:36:29 I have never used business cards designs. I just used TeX to lay out text and logos on the card. All that we had was a laser printer anyways (although here and now, I have a inkjet printer) 05:38:30 augur: chris keegan, black and white, or urban abstraction 05:38:35 roughly in order of personal preference. 05:40:54 ok 06:02:16 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to OracleOfHalting. 06:08:57 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 06:09:48 How do you change the Godel sentences ("This is unprovable") into a computer program that halts if and only if the statement is true, such that waiting for the program to halt, and that if it does halt that is considered a valid proof? 06:10:45 Search for a proof and disproof at the same time 06:11:13 I didn't know what your question was so I answered the question that I liked 06:12:15 That is what the Tortoise did; and found both at the same time. (Of course it is the dialogue made up by Hofstadter, though. I doubt it can happen.) 06:15:18 -!- Darth_Cliche has quit (Quit: You are now graced with my absence.). 06:33:46 Hey monqy, can you promise to make a brainfuck derivative if I'm not offline in the next five minutes? 06:33:51 A really awful one. 06:33:57 And delegate the brickbraining to me. 06:34:05 So that it happens to me instead of you. 06:35:50 OK, CakeProphet: You do it instead. 06:38:53 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:41:12 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: I will sleep.). 06:53:19 -!- ive has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:10:28 -!- OracleOfHalting has changed nick to copumpkin. 07:13:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 07:18:54 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 07:18:54 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 07:18:54 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 07:19:16 -!- ive has joined. 07:20:44 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 07:31:17 -!- ive has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:04:50 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:08:58 -!- augur has joined. 08:14:17 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:24:26 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:28:56 -!- Zuu has joined. 08:31:17 -!- derrik has joined. 08:59:31 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 09:19:04 -!- TeruFSX_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:49:46 -!- Jafet has joined. 09:50:02 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:31:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:10:17 -!- derrik has quit (Quit: left). 13:06:32 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:06:42 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:08:35 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 13:50:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 14:16:48 -!- jack has joined. 14:17:10 -!- jack has left. 14:48:11 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:49:09 -!- sllide has joined. 14:52:15 -!- fizzie has joined. 14:54:43 -!- boily has joined. 14:57:44 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:09:43 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 15:14:35 -!- aloril has joined. 15:18:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:23:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:23:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:37:27 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:43:27 WTF, Peter Serafinowicz was the voice of Darth Maul? 15:43:34 His role in space is now 50 times funnier. 15:44:42 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:52:53 -!- boily has joined. 15:59:08 -!- tswebb has joined. 15:59:18 Hey guys, mind if I think here out loud? Great. 16:00:07 Oh dear. 16:00:18 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:00:29 Suppose you've got an exponentiation b^a, where b and a are complex numbers. You can separate b into a positive part and a unitary part, and a into a real part and an imaginary part. Taking a positive number to any complex power is easy, so we only have to worry about the unitary part of the base. 16:01:32 Taking the unitary part to a real power is easy *if* the unitary part is 1 or the power is an integer. Otherwise, lasciate ogne speranza. So the only question is what happens when you take a unitary thing to an imaginary power. 16:04:56 But wait, every unitary number is of the form e^(i t). So the unitary thingy is simply of the form e^(i t a), so it's all good... well, no, t is actually an angle, so a needs to be something you can multiply angles by. An integer, always. 16:05:17 Zuh? 16:05:30 The concept of multiplication of reals is new to you? 16:05:32 So b^a just plain doesn't make entirely much sense unless b is positive or a is an integer. 16:05:35 Thanks, everyone! 16:05:56 Phantom_Hoover: what's half of the angle whose sine is 0 and whose cosine is 1? 16:06:09 You'll find that there are entirely too many correct answers. 16:06:29 Worse, what's phi times that angle? 16:06:31 No, I won't. 16:06:57 Two is too many, and I refuse to throw out just one of them! 16:07:26 I'll find that general exponentiation obviously isn't a map from C → C. 16:07:59 Isn't that what I said? 16:08:26 You took a while to arrive at that conclusion. 16:08:36 * tswebb nods. 16:10:33 Erm, C → C → C. 16:14:58 It's more like a map ((R+, C) u (C / {0}, Z) u (C, N_0)) -> C. 16:15:34 Or, alternately, C → C → P(C). 16:21:01 Predicate on C? 16:25:45 Zuh? 16:27:31 What do you mean by P(C)? 16:27:37 Powerset? 16:27:38 Oh. The power set of C. 16:31:06 -!- augur has joined. 16:31:53 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:32:03 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude. 16:32:24 -!- elliott has joined. 16:32:56 > read "1337" :: Int 16:32:56 1337 16:33:00 > read "1337" :: Float 16:33:00 1337.0 16:33:05 type directed name resolution. 16:33:50 Huh? 16:34:01 oh, nothing. O:) 16:34:08 15:43:27: WTF, Peter Serafinowicz was the voice of Darth Maul? 16:34:11 Phantom_Hoover: I KNOW RIGHT? 16:34:20 PETER WHY 16:34:44 15:43:34: His role in space is now 50 times funnier. 16:34:44 Role in space(tm) 16:34:56 Oh god, I did. 16:35:11 What. 16:35:34 Say 'space' rather than 'Spaced'. 16:35:39 Phantom_Hoover: BTW who says P(S) for powerset, I am hereby not friends with anyone who doesn't either use fancy LaTeX for it or 2^S. 16:35:46 * elliott set theory notation police 16:36:18 ur plice burality 16:36:47 burality 16:37:48 bareility? 16:38:24 Bulity. 16:40:19 Cool people write C -> Prop. 17:10:29 -!- derrik has joined. 17:21:46 -!- monqy has joined. 17:22:34 hi monqy. 17:22:44 hi 17:23:58 moqny 17:24:50 hi 17:25:09 hi 17:25:19 hi 17:25:19 hi 17:25:28 elliott 17:25:34 waht 17:25:38 :| 17:25:39 hi 17:25:43 hi 17:25:44 ih 17:25:48 :| 17:25:52 bye 17:25:52 :| 17:25:53 q 17:25:55 -!- tswebb has quit (Quit: Page closed). 17:26:03 We need to do something about these malfunctioning emote bots. 17:26:17 hi 17:26:25 Motion that derrik be kicked and he and tiffany banned, effective immediately. 17:28:21 hi Phantom_Hoover 17:28:55 This one is even more vapid than tiffany. 17:29:22 o~o 17:29:25 Phantom_Hoover: You don't understand, he's a professional teacher. 17:29:32 at least o~o is exciting 17:29:40 enthralling 17:29:52 an true adventure 17:33:35 elliott, I... 17:34:10 Phantom_Hoover: Speechlessness. The hallmark of a thick adult! 17:42:55 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:48:09 hi ais523 17:48:16 hi elliott 17:51:47 hi ais523 17:51:56 hi quintopia 17:52:22 hi Phantom_Hoover 17:52:36 hi elliott 17:52:46 hi yiyus 17:53:11 hi 17:53:48 i would never ping ais523 monqy derrik elliott augur boily copumpkin Phantom_Hoover aloril fizzie sllide pikhq sebbu2 CakeProphet mtve variable FireFly chickenzilla Madoka-Kaname Vorpal yorick atehwa kmc mycroftiv Nisstyre olsner MDude shachaf Deewiant EgoBot quintopia Slereah_ Zwaarddijk BeholdMyGlory myndzi yiyus SimonRC rodgort ineiros_ tswett clog jix Gregor glogbot Zetro bd_ lambdabot coppro lifth 17:53:49 rasiir HackEgo twice11 all at once 17:53:53 hi 17:53:56 oh poor lifthrasiir missed out on that :( 17:53:58 pong 17:54:01 I'm going to get kicked now 17:54:13 elliott: Come on. 17:54:16 * rodgort stabs 17:54:18 I heard u mad yesterday. 17:54:18 pong 17:54:20 i like how you put your own name in there 17:54:29 elliott, exactly 17:54:30 Even ddarius concurred that u mad. 17:54:33 elliott: well you didn't lie, but only be cause it was split onto multiple lines :P 17:54:41 and in the middle of a name 17:54:41 Nothing quite like flood of hatred that comes after a channel ping :') 17:54:51 it's magical 17:54:55 nothing like a good old stabbing in the face 17:54:59 that's also magical 17:55:26 NYAN NYAN NYANNYAN NYAN NYANYANYAN NYAN NYAN, NYAN NYAN NYANNYAN NYAN NYANYANYANYANYANYANYANYAN 17:55:34 * sebbu2 slaps elliott around a bit with a very large trout 17:55:38 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:55:43 * shachaf decides not to feed the troll. 17:55:45 sebbu: Oh my god, it's 2001! 17:55:46 Gregor.................. 17:55:53 sebbu.................. 17:55:59 thanks shachaf 17:56:06 for not being them 17:56:11 Gregor: ====Oö ? 17:56:15 I'm also not Gregor or sebbu. 17:56:18 thanks elliott 17:56:23 Thanks monqy. 17:56:23 thanks twice11 17:56:34 monqy is going to ping everyone but Gregor and sebbu in thanks. 17:56:37 thanks ineiros_ thanks derrik thanks augur thanks SimonRC thanks Zetro 17:56:38 yes 17:56:42 you 17:56:44 spoiled it 17:56:46 sory 17:56:48 now i can't ping everyone 17:56:55 you can, it'll just be unfunny and meaningless 17:56:58 which is the best way to do it 17:57:00 crys 17:57:06 a shun on all massive highlighters would be good :) 17:57:28 * derrik does /clear 17:57:30 sebbu: This channel NEEDS ME. 17:57:39 -!- Gregor has set topic: Official NYAN support channel for Web o' Flies | Also official channel of VelNYANta | VelNYANta: Why NYAN, when you can VelNYANta! | NYAN http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/#NYAN. 17:57:53 -!- elliott has set topic: no | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 17:57:53 nooo 17:57:56 ysss 17:57:57 e 17:57:57 X-D 17:58:03 -!- Gregor has set topic: nyano | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 17:58:06 elliott: quick reactions :) 17:58:08 -!- monqy has set topic: yes | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 17:58:09 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 17:58:17 codu more like no-do 17:58:22 ais523: ? 17:58:39 -!- Gregor has set topic: This channel can never truly escape THE CAT | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 17:58:40 elliott: to Gregor's topic change 17:58:49 -!- monqy has set topic: This channel can never truly escape bad topics | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 17:58:52 ais523: you get used to it after a few days of asiekierka 17:59:01 -!- ais523 has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric. 17:59:03 sad truths topic 17:59:04 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +t. 17:59:05 rip 17:59:07 rip 17:59:08 ais523: you missed the slash 17:59:15 where? 17:59:15 and also abused power :'( 17:59:20 ais523: i'm not telling you! 17:59:28 oh, trailing slash 17:59:35 the link works anyway, so 17:59:44 and it's just temporary until people calm down a bit with the topic screwing 17:59:44 ais523: it redirects, that's putting load on Gregor's servers 17:59:53 Gregor: ais523 is abusing his op powers to DDoS you :'( 18:00:05 -!- ChanServ has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 18:00:06 better? 18:00:18 hmm, all Gregor has to do is move the logs and you're obligated to change the topic 18:00:43 ATTENTION: 18:00:58 elliott: don't say that, he'll move them somewhere obnoxious 18:01:00 Channel logs will now be moved to http://codu.org/nyannyannyannyannyannyannyannyannyannyannyanlogs/_esoteric/ 18:01:05 ais523: exactly 18:01:20 Gregor: If you don't do that I'll be really disappointed. 18:01:24 elliott: but don't you not want an obnoxious topic 18:01:25 somehow i figured the new logs would have "nyan" in them, but i did not expect that much 18:01:28 I think you can keep the same programs working just with ln -s 18:01:33 note that I could legally retaliate by kicking glogbot 18:01:36 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:01:37 and that would be bad for everyone 18:01:38 ais523: Yeah, but this is a bargaining chip to get -t :P 18:01:50 elliott: My laziness is greater than my nyanniness. 18:01:53 you wouldn't want me to kick glogbot, would you? 18:02:10 the +t is only temporary, just like you do a temporary +m to people widely spamming msgs in the channel 18:02:13 ais523: You'd have to link to the clog logs instead, including the old zip of 'em 18:02:18 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523. 18:02:23 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -t. 18:02:25 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523. 18:02:32 Darn, now the fun is over. :'( 18:03:20 -!- Gregor has set topic: #esoteric is Not Your Average Network chat channel! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 18:03:44 :( 18:03:48 -!- derrik has quit (Quit: back soon). 18:03:53 bye derrik 18:04:13 Goodbye derrik, we hardly knew ye (as ye never talked) 18:04:16 Gregor: OK, I'll agree with that compromise 18:04:43 Gregor: oh no, he did 18:04:55 Gregor: just hope we don't get to know him any more 18:05:42 -!- Darth_Cliche has joined. 18:09:30 -!- derrik has joined. 18:10:04 That was way too soon. 18:10:45 ty elliott 18:10:54 hi relevant peole 18:11:06 I don't think I've talked to derrik ever, but he/she was here earlier 18:11:21 ais523: oh, you missed out on that day? 18:11:26 you're one of the lucky ones :) 18:11:59 :) 18:16:04 -!- ais523_ has joined. 18:16:38 rip ais523 18:16:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 18:16:50 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 18:17:08 first time the computer's suddenly cut out during updates 18:17:19 let me see if it's in a sane state after that; it seemed to boot up OK 18:17:35 ais523: if you used Kitten, you'd have atomic upgrades... :) 18:17:54 E: dpkg was interrupted, you must manually run 'sudo dpkg --configure -a' to correct the problem. 18:18:05 hmm, I wonder why it can't do that automatically? 18:18:24 I think it can end up doing debconf stuff 18:18:32 or whatever 18:18:38 it's a GUI package manager, it should be able to handle it itself 18:18:40 anyway, none of that with kitten, either :-P 18:19:36 heh, seems it had almost finished 18:19:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:19:46 the configure took about half a second, then it was fully up-to-date 18:20:45 ais523: regular reminder that this problem doesn't even exist with kitten!!! kitten: the best. 18:21:21 elliott: in Kitten, you'd still need to GC the partial update and do the update properly 18:22:00 ais523: you're just stringing random words together and hoping they come out correct, right? :P 18:22:25 I'm trying to figure out what would happen if the power was cut while Kitten was in the middle of writing a file 18:22:29 during a package update 18:22:53 the file it was writing wouldn't be used, presumably, because it wouldn't be recorded as being in the unionfslikefs as something to mount 18:23:03 but it'd still exist, and you wouldn't want it to hang around forever 18:23:15 ais523: I'll explain, to stop you making up nonsense :P 18:23:15 and you also presumably still want it, so you'd have to redo the update 18:24:05 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:24:17 ais523: You'd have to define "package update". The upgrade process in Kitten looks like this: Figure out which packages have new versions. Install them -- likely by downloading a binary tarball and extracting it -- into the store. That's guaranteed not to "overwrite" anything because the store is immutable, hash-based, etc. etc. etc.; the old versions of the packages are still there. Once all that is d 18:24:17 one, then /atomically/ switch over the user environment to use the new versions of all the upgraded packages. 18:24:29 The old versions then become garbage (assuming nothing else -- e.g. another user -- is referencing them), and can be GC'd. 18:24:49 elliott: that's the operation I was describing as an update 18:24:58 ais523: Yes, but it's composed of multiple operations. 18:25:08 The tarballs are extracted to a temporary directory and then moved into the store, so that's atomic too. 18:25:17 Basically, there is no way for a crash during a Kitten upgrade to produce an inconsistent state at all. 18:25:19 oh, using atomic mv? 18:25:22 Yes. 18:25:23 it wouldn't produce an inconsistent state 18:25:32 If it failed half-way through installing the packages, you'd just re-run it, and it'd do the rest. 18:25:38 I was thinking about if the temporary directory was half-written 18:25:42 It might do one of them again, if it failed while unpacking it. 18:25:44 but I suppose it regularly gets cleaned away anyway 18:26:01 ais523: Well, it's per-package. 18:26:23 So it's like a few hundred megs waste at most, and it'll probably get cleaned up as soon as the package manager notices it has some junk temporary files lying around. 18:26:38 (Won't unpack to /tmp: rename(2) is not atomic across filesystems!) 18:26:46 (And also you might not have enough RAM to store the package, anyway.) 18:27:19 That way of garbage collecting the old versions would work in case some user or program requires the old version for some reason. Or in case you want to tell it to keep the old one temporarily in case the new one is broken and you want to revert some programs to the old one! 18:27:22 rename(2) works across filesystems at all? 18:27:36 also, aren't tmpfses capable of swapping to disk if required? 18:27:36 ais523: well, probably not, but mv does 18:27:55 zzo38: Yep! (Packages that depend on older versions will keep referencing them and work fine even without doing anything special.) 18:27:57 if they weren't, there'd be no difference between a tmpfs and shmfs 18:28:10 (Of course you have to manually select an old version to run programs that depend on an older version that aren't part of the package manager.) 18:28:11 elliott: how would the GC determine which packages were being referenced? 18:28:22 ais523: mark-and-sweep 18:28:27 how does it do the marking? 18:28:39 it seems nontrivial to tell whether a package is in use or not 18:28:46 ais523: Well, the user profiles (sets of packages users have installed) are the roots. 18:28:55 ais523: Then you just do a regular conservative scan from there. 18:29:00 oh, it's at the package level? 18:29:09 ais523: Any package that references another will contain its store path. 18:29:12 what happens if a user uninstalls a package while using it? 18:29:18 e.g. running an executable from it? 18:29:19 ais523: (this breaks if something stores its library paths in UTF-16, or whatever) 18:29:22 (but nobody does that) 18:29:31 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:29:31 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 18:29:31 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:29:34 (that's like memfrobbing a pointer when using boehm gc) 18:29:45 err, I forget whether memfrob is reversible 18:29:50 ais523: define uninstall... 18:29:54 ais523: presumably you mean "removing from the environment" 18:30:04 elliott: removes the package from the list of packages that they state they want 18:30:22 ais523: Well, all the package's references to itself will use absolute store path locations. 18:30:32 And removing a package from the environment doesn't remove it from the store, only GCing does that. 18:30:35 But... 18:30:36 Don't do that :P 18:30:45 I was fearing the answer was "don't do that" 18:30:51 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:30:56 ais523: it would be easy enough for the package manager to figure out whether you're using it 18:30:57 the package isn't in any user's lists, so it's risking being GCed 18:31:05 and refuse to let you remove it 18:31:06 this is more important for old versions, though 18:31:11 but I'm pretty sure it's obvious 18:31:17 ais523: well, yes, GC doesn't just run willy-nilly for a reason 18:31:21 ais523: you GC when you're low on disk 18:31:31 ais523: you can add packages manually to the set of gc roots, though 18:31:35 "uninstalling" a package while using it is a bit weird; but upgrading it while using it is quite common 18:31:37 if you want to protect it while not referencing it from any environments 18:32:00 ais523: I thought you meant doing it while GCing 18:32:08 certainly, things won't break if you upgrade without rebooting 18:32:20 elliott: I mean, if the GC runs after doing that 18:32:25 ais523: the gc doesn't just "run" 18:32:28 the system administrator has to run it 18:32:34 well, when's a sensible time to run it? 18:32:38 the only time I can think of is during boot 18:32:40 ais523: when you're running out of disk for the store 18:32:51 or just want to reclaim some free space 18:32:53 elliott: but people might have just upgraded a package they're using when that happens 18:33:02 ais523: you'd reboot at the same time to get kernel upgrades 18:33:13 (say ksplice and I'll ragequit) 18:33:24 you hate Oracle that much? :P 18:33:24 it's a periodic maintanence task, not anything that needs to be run with regularity 18:33:32 ais523: heh 18:33:48 wait, hmm 18:33:48 it might make most sense to run it on every boot 18:33:58 ais523: actually, no, there would be no risk 18:34:08 ais523: because you keep old user environments 18:34:15 those have to be deleted manually to stop them referencing old packages 18:34:29 I don't like the repeated "manual" here 18:34:41 it'd make most sense to delete them when the user had no logins 18:34:47 ais523: so basically, if you upgraded ten times without rebooting, then the sysadmin said "delete every user environment older than the last 10 and gc" 18:34:51 then things would break 18:34:55 just like it makes sense to GC packages on boot 18:35:01 elliott: right 18:35:02 ais523: no, that doesn't make sense at all 18:35:05 because you can rollback on boot 18:35:08 I don't see why the sysadmin needs to make potentially incorrect decisions 18:35:13 that's one of the major advantages of a purely functional package manager 18:35:20 you can select an old profile from the GRUB menu to roll back to it 18:35:23 in case you break something 18:35:30 elliott: right; I think that would count as a reference for the GC 18:35:37 the sysadmin doesn't make potentially incorrect decisions, you just don't understand the model :) 18:35:43 GC things that have fallen off the end of the rollback menu on boot 18:35:54 ais523: they don't fall off 18:35:59 it's a matter of system policy when you clean them up 18:36:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:36:11 well, falling off is a sensible system policy, right? 18:36:14 it makes sense to delete all but the last 10 for each user before GCing 18:36:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 18:36:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:36:25 or similar 18:36:34 what I'm saying is, it's OK to have the rules customizable, even to entirely manual 18:36:37 but entirely manual is not a sane default 18:36:45 ais523: let me tell you about cron! 18:36:52 it is not the package manager's job to run itself periodically 18:36:59 that is a matter of system policy and is why we have generic scheduling tools 18:37:04 I'm talking about the system as a whole, not the package manager itself 18:37:11 for desktop users, it /does/ make sense to have it be manual 18:37:16 putting it in the crontab would be a sensible default, for instance 18:37:21 because there is no reason to delete things until you actually need more space 18:37:30 which is not something a computer can determine; you need more space when you want more space 18:37:57 elliott: you need more space when you want more space, indeed; and if you want more space, you don't want to manually have to run a bunch of "free up space" things 18:38:07 you want them to already have happened by the time you want more space 18:38:18 so that you don't have to think "oh, I want to create a file, let me run the spacecleaner first" 18:38:23 you just think "I want to create a file" 18:38:34 ais523: this is why people don't consider 4 gigabytes a large disk 18:38:40 the extreme version of your opinion would be a system that always used your entire disk, all the time 18:38:51 and whenever you wanted to create a file, you requested it to purge a bit of space to create the file in 18:38:53 actually, hmm 18:39:03 why not hook the spacecleaning things into the open/close/write syscalls, in that case? 18:39:14 as long as it's automated, it's actually a reasonable thing to do 18:39:15 if I hadn't given up on this by the last message, I just did 18:40:04 ais523: the system does not delete the user's data without asking or being told to. simple as that 18:40:16 oh well, when you have an opinion as insane as this one, you generally realise why it's wrong after a few months of actually using it 18:40:24 so I suppose there's no real point in trying to convince you now 18:40:51 ais523: the NixOS guys don't seem to have any problem with it after 7 years of production use 18:41:11 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:41:21 the problem is that you want a system that nobody else wants 18:41:27 I doubt their GC is entirely manual 18:41:27 hm 18:41:29 yes, it is 18:41:43 elliott: what is the thing ais523 is suggesting here? 18:41:55 Vorpal: a bad idea; you can read the logs if you want more detail 18:42:18 "You should periodically run the Nix garbage collector to get rid of unused packages, since uninstalls or upgrades don't actually delete them: 18:42:18 $ nix-collect-garbage -d" 18:42:19 [...] 18:42:21 "Of course, since disk space is not infinite, unused packages should be removed at some point. You can do this by running the Nix garbage collector. It will remove from the Nix store any package not used (directly or indirectly) by any generation of any profile. 18:42:21 Note however that as long as old generations reference a package, it will not be deleted. After all, we wouldn’t be able to do a rollback otherwise. So in order for garbage collection to be effective, you should also delete (some) old generations. Of course, this should only be done if you are certain that you will not need to roll back." 18:42:58 Vorpal: that if a system requires a GC, then the GC should actually run when needed, rather than making the user have to remember it exists 18:43:14 Vorpal: or you could get the misleading version straight from him :) 18:43:18 ais523: from a quick glance at the scrollback, it seems you want package garbage collection to be automatic. Even "normal" distros doesn't automatically remove downloaded files. You need something like apt-get clean or pacman -Sc for that 18:43:23 ais523: hope i've cleared up your doubts 18:43:24 why should it be any different here 18:43:32 and if you want it, just put it in the crontab 18:43:48 Vorpal: they put them in /var/cache, whose entire purpose for existence is that it can be automatically cleaned at any time 18:43:59 Vorpal: ais523 wants even worse than that, he wants /automatic scheduled deletion/ of old package configurations in the crontab by default 18:44:05 ais523: I have not seen that happen though 18:44:15 ais523: show me where that is actually done automatically 18:44:18 ais523: /var/cache is meant to be cleaned manually 18:44:21 as opposed to /tmp 18:44:24 that's why it's not called /tmp 18:44:49 elliott: err? /tmp is cleaned on boot, that doesn't make sense with the intended purpose /var/cache 18:44:53 *intended purpose of 18:44:59 which should be cleaned only when the disk is getting full 18:45:10 it is of course possible ubuntu cleans it automatically but I don't think so 18:45:14 I'd be surprised if distros didn't clean the older half of it when the disk was getting near full 18:45:31 ais523: pretty sure no distro does that currently 18:45:53 and automatic removing of old configs is insane 18:45:58 Vorpal: I know that Windows does, when the disk space becomes full 18:46:07 that is not a linux distro 18:46:12 shocking revelation: packages don't take up most of the disk, user files like audio/video do 18:46:16 you said distro above, define your meaning of distro 18:46:17 /images 18:46:20 not completely automatically, but it lists a bunch of things that would make sense to delete, in order of how likely they are to be safe to delete 18:46:29 ais523: I would like to point out that ubuntu doesn't delete old kernels after you installed a newer one 18:46:32 you have to do that by hand 18:47:29 ais523: how is this any different? 18:47:34 Vorpal: right, and that confused me, I don't see why it'd need more than 3 or 4 or so 18:47:39 ... 18:47:44 it is up to the user? 18:47:57 I see no reason why it shouldn't be configurable 18:48:03 but infinity isn't a sane default for that 18:48:17 whereas, say, for bash_history, the default is much too low, and infinity would be a saner default there 18:48:25 as looking arbitrarily far back in your bash history is actually useful 18:48:41 whereas old kernels are likely to be around elsewhere online, so can always be redownloaded 18:49:32 ais523: I actually have multiple kernels on my laptop, I use a newer one that I have graphical issues with (because X isn't new enough) but where they improved various things for battery time a lot when I need that. Then I use the standard distro kernel when I know I will be on AC for quite a while 18:49:35 like over weekends 18:49:50 anyway you could just write your own cron job for these misfeatures 18:49:53 it wouldn't be hard 18:50:02 Vorpal: in that case, wouldn't you just mark both kernels as desired versions to keep around by hand? 18:50:13 -!- derdon has joined. 18:50:21 ais523: sure, but you just added complexity to the solution 18:50:21 otherwise, say, when you went and transferred your list of packages onto a different physical computer, you wouldn't have the old versions you were using 18:50:48 no I didn't; that complexity exists anyway both in elliott's distro/Nix, and (if you want to be sane) in your case too 18:50:58 you have a list of installed packages, right? 18:50:59 ais523: the newer kernel version I use was basically manually backported and have non-standard options. I would have to compile a new kernel for another system anyway 18:51:12 why would you want the list to be different from the set of packages that are actually installed? 18:51:15 whereas, say, for bash_history, the default is much too low, and infinity would be a saner default there <-- not really, that would grow forever much quicker than package history 18:51:34 why would you want the list to be different from the set of packages that are actually installed? <-- ... where did I claim that? 18:54:26 -!- ais523_ has joined. 18:54:57 Vorpal: having fun? 18:55:00 Vorpal: are you seriously saying that your bash history grows faster than the binaries of all the kernels you've ever used? 18:55:08 incidentally, my computer just locked up and I had to hard reboot 18:55:10 which is weird 18:55:13 I'm seeing if there's anything in the logs 18:55:36 elliott: yes. I'm watching a video now. 18:55:38 (magic sysrq wasn't working, nor was control-alt-F1, and the mouse pointer wouldn't move; strangely, the sound card just kept looping the last second or so of what it had been playing) 18:56:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:56:22 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 18:57:25 nothing relevant in logs 18:57:47 they were just cut off, much as I'd expect if I hard-rebooted while the system was running normally 18:58:26 the only unusual thing I was doing was "$ du --si --summarize /usr /home" 18:58:34 because I was curious as to their relative sizes on my system 18:59:42 it's, umm, taking a while, which isn't surprising 18:59:52 because the total size of /usr and /home isn't recorded anywhere, so it has to be worked out 19:00:26 I wonder if it would be reasonable to design an fs to record the total size of directories? it'd be O(depth of directory tree) to update, I'm not sure if that'd be too expensive 19:02:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:06:30 So b^a just plain doesn't make entirely much sense unless b is positive or a is an integer. 19:06:49 tswett: multivalued functions, man. 19:07:21 even b=1 is interesting to consider that way. 19:08:04 1^(1/n) naturally has all the values cos (2*k*pi/n) + i sin (2*k*pi/n) 19:08:48 (they're the solutions to z^n = 1, for one thing) 19:09:42 otherwise, you need to choose a branch of the function. 19:10:00 ais523: actually I can check size of /usr and /home really quick 19:10:11 ah, OK 19:10:18 elliott: I have 11G in /usr, 53G in /home 19:10:32 and I wouldn't be surprised if most of the packages on the system have been upgraded at least 5 times 19:10:33 ais523: here is how: 19:10:35 $ df -h | grep -E '(/usr|/home)$' 19:10:35 /dev/mapper/array-home 192G 158G 25G 87% /home 19:10:35 /dev/mapper/array-usr 20G 9,9G 8,9G 53% /usr 19:10:50 hmm, that's interesting 19:10:58 ais523: what is? 19:11:01 /dev/mapper 19:11:08 ais523: well, it is basically LVM2 19:11:18 -!- Darth_Cliche has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:11:18 also, I note that your /home is only three times the size of your /usr 19:11:27 elliott's is probably thousands of times the size, knowing him 19:11:40 ais523: I have never grown /usr since installing the system. I have grown /home a few times 19:11:56 I recently reinstalled this system so I can't say. 19:12:00 Vorpal: but you aren't storing old versions of most packages in /usr, are you? 19:12:26 elliott: actually, that's a really good time to say, assuming you transferred over /home and transferred over the list of installed packages so that /usr contained the same packages 19:12:46 I can't transfer /home from a dead machine. 19:12:58 ah, hmm 19:12:58 ais523: no because I use arch. My current partition scheme would not fit nixos. nixos doesn't even have an /usr. If I were to switch (and I'm contemplating this, still a few issues that needs to be ironed out first though), I would drop /usr and reorganize stuff a bit 19:13:01 not even from backups? 19:13:09 -!- derrik has quit (Quit: nite). 19:13:12 or by taking the drive out of it and connecting it up directly? 19:13:34 Vorpal: well, nixos has a place-where-packages-are-stored 19:13:37 ais523: I don't imagine elliott backs up anything beyond, say, ssh keys or web browser profile 19:13:41 ais523: yes 19:13:43 which may not be /usr, but certainly has a similar purpose 19:13:55 Vorpal: hmm, I suspect my more recent ssh keys aren't actually backed up 19:14:04 I only ever made the one backup of dotfiles 19:14:14 ais523: I hadn't yet set up backups there for various reasons, although I have slightly old backups of the things I care about most (~/Code, mostly) 19:14:18 I don't care about web browser profiles being backed up, most things I care about I memorized the URLs for 19:14:20 and the passwords 19:14:27 elliott: ah, OK 19:14:29 ais523: nixos has one file in /bin, that is /bin/sh, and is a symlink. No /usr, not /sbin. It is all done in different ways 19:14:33 ais523: and extracting the HD would require taking a chip welded onto the motherboard 19:14:42 elliott: ouch 19:14:47 and then wiring it up to an enclosure somehow 19:15:06 I don't care about web browser profiles being backed up, most things I care about I memorized the URLs for <-- well, if you use the key ring feature of your browser 19:15:10 (I do that) 19:15:11 Vorpal: that doesn't mean that there isn't a part of the system where installed executables are stored, though 19:15:34 btw, Apple have decided that they don't have to fix the MacBook Air according to the warranty 19:15:36 Vorpal: well, the browser has some passwords memorized; but I have them memorized too 19:15:42 because I'm used to logging in from different systems 19:15:44 and want 500 pounds to fix it 19:15:46 elliott: hmm, how old was it? 19:15:50 in related news, I have a new doorstop 19:15:53 it's very thin 19:15:57 ais523: less than a year 19:15:58 ais523: indeed, but I wouldn't put it on a separate partition from / for nixos. I would probably use / /home /boot and possibly /tmp (unless I do that in tmpfs) 19:16:16 ais523: probably the warranty excludes all damage that isn't caused by, I don't know, God 19:16:17 elliott: they what? 19:16:21 * Gregor has one big / partition :P 19:16:27 Gregor: So does everyone sane. 19:16:32 elliott: that sucks 19:16:33 elliott: you might be able to get them to fix it on statutary warranty, if the damage is their fault 19:16:47 elliott: I have one big / partition, but suspect it may be a bad idea 19:16:57 also, an equally-sized partition for Windows 19:17:04 my laptop has /boot and /. 19:17:10 as the repartitioner on the Ubuntu installer wouldn't shrink the Windows partition to less than half its original size 19:17:14 oh and swap of course 19:17:16 ais523: I haven't bothered to investigate further as I don't anticipate arguing with Apple to be productive, but I suspect they have a very bad definition of "fault" 19:17:18 I suppose I should use it for local backups, or something 19:17:23 but I haven't been bothered to figure out how to mount it 19:17:36 elliott: for statutary warranty, it's not their definition that matters, but the legal one 19:17:39 Vorpal: it does suck; I guess I might fix it some day if I have some free cash 19:17:45 this machine works fine for now, though 19:17:49 does the computer you're currently using have working number keys? 19:17:52 elliott: see what ais523 said 19:17:56 ais523: yep, but I'd have to convince them that they have to agree with my definition 19:18:04 which sounds like an awful lot of trouble 19:18:08 and yes, it does :) 19:18:13 elliott: talk to your lawyer ;P 19:18:19 (I doubt you have one) 19:18:26 what went wrong with the old one, apart from the digits on the keyboard? 19:18:31 Vorpal: If I had a lawyer, I'd probably have 500 pounds spare :P 19:18:46 ais523: it turned off and didn't turn back on again 19:19:15 hmm, OK 19:19:19 with no obvious cause? 19:19:31 indeed 19:19:47 this happened like a week ago, btw, I just forgot to say anything :P 19:19:51 elliott: to Gregor's topic change 19:20:18 Gregor: I SUSPECT YOUR .txt LOGS DON'T INCLUDE TOPIC CHANGES 19:21:49 oerjan: I noticed that >_> 19:23:52 Gregor: i also suspect they don't include +t mode changes :P 19:24:03 oerjan: They don't include mode changes at all. 19:27:05 if not for freenode's stupid idea that there should be a way to avoid getting logged, i'd have liked to point out that a channel should BLOODY INCLUDE EVERYTHING PEOPLE ON THE CHANNEL SEE 19:27:16 *channel log 19:27:26 *BLOODY WELL 19:27:29 http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2011-11-09-raw.txt 19:27:34 Or, 19:27:36 !glogbot_help 19:27:40 https://codu.org/projects/stuff/logbothg/ 19:27:45 I'm sure Gregor accepts patches. 19:27:55 elliott: I'm fixing it right now :P 19:27:56 Anyway I'm pretty sure glogbot doesn't respect the idiotic "no-logging" thing. 19:27:57 It's half-fixed already. 19:28:13 yay 19:28:13 what's the no-logging thing? 19:28:35 if not for freenode's stupid idea that there should be a way to avoid getting logged 19:29:12 if not for freenode's stupid idea that there should be a way to avoid getting logged, i'd have liked to point out that a channel should BLOODY INCLUDE EVERYTHING PEOPLE ON THE CHANNEL SEE <-- err? avoid getting logged? 19:29:20 ais523: i think i saw it in a faq somewhere 19:29:31 it's not in the server intro message, though 19:29:44 oerjan: Freenode doesn't like channels to be logged without warning the users of the channel (e.g. in the topic) 19:29:53 ais523: that's not it 19:29:57 I thought you were implying there was some way to send a message-to-channel that wasn't logged 19:30:01 there is 19:30:05 what 19:30:16 or rather there's meant to be 19:30:22 thats stupid 19:30:28 i'm not sure if there is one which _both_ our log bots simultaneously abide by :P 19:30:41 neither of our log bots fail to log anything 19:30:41 well 19:30:45 apart from clog which is just incomplete 19:31:02 "Be sure to provide a way for users to make comments without logging, --" -- freenode philosophy: channel guidelines. 19:31:10 Argh, I'm incompetent :P 19:31:20 OK, it's 2/3rds fixed (adding topics to log) 19:31:34 fizzie: that is really simple actually. Tell them to turn off local logging. Then they can make a comment while not logging. 19:31:41 what a badly worded statement 19:31:48 "If you're considering publishing channel logs, think it through. The freenode network is an interactive environment. Even on public channels, most users don't weigh their comments with the idea that they'll be enshrined in perpetuity. For that reason, few participants publish logs. 19:31:48 If you're publishing logs on an ongoing basis, your channel topic should reflect that fact. Be sure to provide a way for users to make comments without logging, and get permission from the channel owners before you start. If you're thinking of "anonymizing" your logs (removing information that identifies the specific users), be aware that it's difficult to do it well—replies and general context often 19:31:48 provide identifying information which is hard to filter. 19:31:48 It's in the context of publishing logs. 19:31:49 If you just want to publish a single conversation, be careful to get permission from each participant. Provide as much context as you can. Avoid the temptation to publish or distribute logs without permission in order to portray someone in a bad light. The reputation you save will most likely be your own." 19:32:24 fizzie: You should put on your special op hat and tap my head three times and designate me the Official Catalyst. 19:32:27 That's how it works, right? 19:32:42 Your way to make comments without logging is to go to #esoteric-unlogged . 19:32:50 Relaxed, open-minded, responsible, unobtrusive, realistic, careful, attentive, minimalist, courteous, cooperative, someone with an internal locus of control, and a user... 19:32:52 I think the catalyst stuff has something to do with chemistry, but that's all I know. 19:32:53 Yes, I am all these things! 19:32:53 Gregor: :) 19:32:57 As an added bonus, you may choose to opt out of hearing unlogged messages by simply not joining #esoteric-unlogged . 19:33:08 Gregor: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric-unlogged/ 19:33:13 elliott: Nooooooose 19:33:26 how did that happen 19:33:29 I sure hope this comment was not logged. 19:33:31 I invited glogbot to it. :P 19:33:46 stupid bot that does that 19:33:57 fizzie: X-D 19:34:00 Vorpal: Does what? 19:34:07 elliott: joins any invites it gets 19:34:11 Vorpal: It's a logbot. 19:34:32 Vorpal: Why send a command for "start logging" when you could just use an existing IRC mechanism... 19:34:38 Vorpal: Bonus: /invite requires op privileges. 19:34:43 So glogbot can avoid authenticating that. 19:35:00 elliott: sure, but surely only the owner of the bot should be able to add new channels 19:35:05 Why 19:35:16 Vorpal: It's a public-access logbot, I shouldn't need to be bothered to add new channels. 19:35:17 elliott: well lets invite it into all high volume channels then :D 19:35:26 Vorpal: We're not ops on those channels, you moron. 19:35:28 Vorpal: Good luck getting ops on all of them. 19:35:39 elliott: true, but do you need that if the channel is not +i? 19:35:42 I don't think you do 19:35:58 * #ubuntu :You're not a channel operator 19:35:58 * Channel #ubuntu modes: +CLcntjf 5:10 #ubuntu-unregged 19:36:14 huh 19:36:16 +i is just restricting joins. 19:36:30 That /invite policy is a Freenode thing. 19:36:33 But, glogbot is a Freenode bot :) 19:36:46 yeah pretty sure invites don't work like that on a standard ircd 19:36:51 OMG HOW DO I KEEP SCREWING THIS UP 19:36:53 There's a chanserv access flag to enable inviting. 19:36:55 Like there's any such thing as a standard ircd. 19:37:05 The IRCnet ircd is the standard ircd. :p 19:37:05 fizzie: isn't that /cs invite 19:37:09 rather than /invite 19:37:20 elliott: well, common ircd. As in how it is done on the other big networks 19:37:43 Vorpal: Could be; I suppose it would make sense that way. 19:38:01 FINALLY. After only twelve attempts, the logbot now has topic changes. 19:38:08 Now to add mode changes. 19:43:03 yay 19:43:39 now i just need to ironically ban Gregor for abusing topic changes 19:44:07 oerjan: ban ais523 instead, he abused mode changes :'( 19:44:14 EVIL 19:44:28 -!- Gregor has set topic: #esoteric is Not Your Average Network chat channel! | #esoteric trying to enforce topic despotism: But how will this affect our children's fitness? That and more at 11 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 19:44:52 oerjan: I +t'd the channel in order to stop the topic change abuse 19:44:56 I don't call that mode change abuse at all 19:45:08 especially as it was only intended to be temporary, and was in fact changed back after a few minutes 19:45:14 Oh man, Not Your Average Network 19:45:16 I just got it >_< 19:45:19 elliott: Bahahahaha 19:45:25 elliott: should i ban ais523 for not understanding jokes, instead? 19:45:42 elliott: I got it right away 19:45:48 and thought it was an amusing compromise 19:45:53 OK, topic/mode logging is now perfection. 19:45:59 might be better without the caps, I guess 19:46:02 oerjan: Yse. 19:46:04 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:46:04 Yes. 19:46:39 ?unmtl Cont r a 19:46:40 (a -> r) -> r 19:46:54 monads, so contra 19:47:03 forall r. (((m a -> m a) -> m a) -> r) -> r 19:47:04 oerjan: help. 19:47:15 elliott: wat 19:47:31 oerjan: I was trying to figure out what a coroutine monad looks like because I'm really bored :P 19:47:36 ?unmtl ContT r t a 19:47:37 (a -> t r) -> t r 19:47:43 er 19:47:46 ?unmtl ContT r m a 19:47:46 (with fork :: CoroT m a -> CoroT m (), yield :: CoroT m ()) 19:47:46 (a -> m r) -> m r 19:48:04 nothing boring like StateT [CoroT m ()] m ofc 19:48:50 elliott: just put zzo38 on it 19:48:56 * oerjan runs away 19:48:58 oerjan: ;___; 19:49:08 ...but yeah, I started off with 19:49:11 (m a -> m a) -> m a 19:49:26 where the argument is a sort of yield 19:49:28 you pass it a continuation 19:49:38 it context-switches to every other thread then calls the continuation you gave it once that's done 19:49:38 but 19:49:40 that doesn't work :'( 19:49:43 because you can't write fork 19:50:18 oerjan: btw did you see Simon Marlow breaking reddiquette :P 19:50:53 what, today? 19:51:20 in r/haskell? 19:51:28 yes 19:52:06 well i haven't gotten around to reddit yet. also, laundry --> 19:54:21 Am I here? 19:55:06 'Twould seem not... 19:55:08 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:55:21 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:55:27 Taneb: no 19:55:35 -!- Zuu has joined. 20:01:32 elliott: Why is glogbot not the most wildly popular logbot ever made? 20:01:54 'cuz it doesn't do mode changes. 20:02:05 elliott: But it does now! 20:02:16 Does it do nick changes? 20:02:29 elliott: Yup 20:02:36 (I think X-P ) 20:02:40 (Oh, yes, it does) 20:02:42 Reassuring! 20:02:55 Hey, my memory is distinct from glogbot's quality >_> 20:04:04 I typed that before you said it did :P 20:04:11 ISTR something like quits were broken a while ago. 20:06:54 They were only very partially broken. 20:07:10 It was join->nick->quit that it didn't detect properly. 20:07:18 It detected the join and the nick, but not the quit. 20:14:31 I RETRUN 20:15:10 how retro 20:15:22 Heh, now even Adobe don't use Flash 20:15:54 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 20:18:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:18:57 -!- derrik has joined. 20:22:52 -!- Aune has joined. 20:23:24 swede ho! 20:24:04 `? welcome 20:24:14 Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 20:31:59 -!- tiffany has joined. 20:33:47 Swo! 20:35:37 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 20:35:37 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 20:35:37 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 20:37:41 NOW I remember why I hate PulseAudio so much. 20:37:47 BECAUSE IT FRIGGIN SUCKS 20:38:24 Why is mplayer stuttery and terrible through pulseaudio? And why is it that if I just have pulseaudio INSTALLED, anything that wants it will start it automatically without asking me? >_< 20:38:39 so how many programs do you hate for being too perfect? 20:39:13 Gregor: stop complaining and just uninstall pulseaudio then 20:39:24 olsner: I need it for remote audio >_< 20:39:37 olsner: So I have to install it when I want remote audio, then uninstall it when I don't :P 20:39:55 well you're already good at sandboxing... 20:40:08 Gregor: Just use JACK :P 20:40:15 elliott: JACK is SO FRIGGIN' DIFFICULT. 20:40:22 Gregor: Google a friggin' tutorial :P 20:40:27 elliott: I did! It didn't work! 20:40:34 Gregor doesn't know jack shit 20:40:44 yeah Gregor's a fucking moron 20:40:44 wait 20:42:01 elliott: That's it, I'm BANNING YOU ... from the logs ... or something. 20:42:17 X-D 20:42:34 logs without elliott, so useful 20:42:56 You might get a whole percent of the messages. 20:47:13 oerjan: did you know: Enum and Bounded are hard to use 20:47:50 aha? 20:48:39 > [minBound..maxBound] :: String 20:48:40 "\NUL\SOH\STX\ETX\EOT\ENQ\ACK\a\b\t\n\v\f\r\SO\SI\DLE\DC1\DC2\DC3\DC4\NAK\S... 20:49:11 boundedEnumElems :: (Enum a, Bounded a, Eq a) => Elems a 20:49:11 boundedEnumElems = go minBound maxBound 20:49:11 where go m n 20:49:11 | m == n = Leaf m 20:49:11 | otherwise = Branch (go m mn) (go (succ mn) n) 20:49:12 where mn = pred . toEnum $ nv + ((nv - mv) `div` 2) 20:49:14 mv = fromEnum m 20:49:16 nv = fromEnum n 20:49:18 It doesn't wooooork :P 20:49:36 > [minBound,'Ø'..maxBound] :: String 20:49:37 "\NUL\216\432\648\864\1080\1296\1512\1728\1944\2160\2376\2592\2808\3024\324... 20:51:30 elliott: why not? 20:51:58 *Main> boundedEnumElems :: Elems Bool 20:51:58 Branch (Leaf False) (Leaf True) 20:51:58 *Main> boundedEnumElems :: Elems Test 20:51:58 Branch *** Exception: toEnum{Test}: tag (4) is outside of enumeration's range (0,3) 20:52:03 where Test is A | B | C | D 20:52:50 ah i guess the problem is if mn == maxBound? 20:53:06 yeah 20:53:13 I guess I could like compare mn to see if it's maxbound but uhhh 20:53:16 s/uhhh/ugggh/ 20:53:25 oerjan: actually no 20:53:25 then you need Ord 20:53:35 oerjan: because the exception is on the first branch 20:53:40 which has no succ 20:53:45 and no, I don't, I can just use fromEnum >:) 20:54:35 You don't need Eq either, if you use fromEnum 20:54:36 oh hm 20:54:47 Deewiant: True 20:55:11 Thinking it might just be easier to do it with a -> [Bool] 20:55:32 elliott: itym where mn = pred . toEnum $ mv + ((nv - mv) `div` 2) 20:55:45 http://www.purdue.edu/IMPACTEARTH 20:55:46 oh hm 20:55:50 Wait this is from Purdue? 20:55:55 Where are the chickens? 20:55:59 oerjan: that produces an infinite tree for Test :P 20:56:19 Phantom__Hoover: Help I don't want to impact? 20:56:29 This is like Sburb but with a crappy loading screen. 20:56:42 elliott: oh i guess if they're 1 apart, it may fail? 20:56:49 oerjan: auugh why is this ugly 20:57:02 Phantom__Hoover: OMG CAN I IMPACT EARTH WITH A GIGANTIC MASSIVE ASTEROID 20:57:06 elliott: nv + ((nv - mv) `div` 2) is definitely wrong, anyway 20:57:14 Phantom__Hoover: X-D One of the options for diameter is "Humpback Whale". 20:58:20 Phantom__Hoover: :-( I was hoping I could watch it slam in. 20:58:23 BOOOOORIIIIIIING 20:59:19 elliott: should the pred . be there? 20:59:28 oerjan: istr it failed even more without it :) i can ermove it 20:59:47 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:59:51 "The Earth is completely disrupted by the impact and its debris forms a new asteroid belt orbiting the sun between Venus and Mars. 20:59:51 100 percent of the Earth is melted 20:59:51 Depending on the direction and location the collision, the impact may totally change the Earth's rotation period and the tilt of its axis. 20:59:51 Depending on the direction and location of impact, the collision may cause a change in the length of the day of up to 38500000000000 hours. 20:59:52 The impact shifts the Earth's orbit totally." 20:59:56 Phantom__Hoover: "Day change: not significant" 21:00:04 FSVO not significant. 21:00:15 elliott: Day changed to no-such-notion :P 21:00:29 Gregor: It's just 38500000000024 hours long now. 21:00:57 "Transient Crater Depth: 2560000000 km ( = 1590000000 miles )" 21:01:06 elliott: try where mn = toEnum $ mv + ((nv - mv) `div` 2) 21:01:21 oerjan: wow, it works :P 21:01:44 yay :) 21:04:01 Phantom__Hoover: X-D One of the options for diameter is "Humpback Whale". <-- what about bowl of petunias? 21:04:33 actually then it should be sperm whale, i think 21:05:01 * Gregor starts putting in ridiculous parameters. 21:05:07 A ball of iron the size of Jupiter ... 21:05:12 (i.e. a black hole) 21:05:25 It's hardly hitting the Earth then, is it? 21:05:28 Gregor: Pffft, I put like 1000000000 in all the fields :P 21:05:32 Also hmm. 21:05:39 It just basically says "There is no more Earth!" 21:06:03 would that actually be a black hole... 21:06:09 Jupiter's 70000km in radius. 21:06:40 "The Earth is completely disrupted by the impact and its debris forms a new asteroid belt orbiting the sun between Venus and Mars." yay 21:06:57 "Depending on the direction and location of impact, the collision may cause a change in the length of the day of up to 23.8 hours." lol 21:08:13 X-D 21:09:20 WA is misbehaving when I try to find the Schwarzschild radius of a ball of iron the size of Jupiter. 21:10:09 it is probably detecting that you are constructing a weapon of mass destruction 21:10:17 if you already know the size, what do you need the schwarzschild radius for? 21:10:34 olsner: to check if it would collapse into a black hole, duh 21:10:36 It's 16.8m; it's not a black hole. 21:11:00 sounds unlikely then 21:11:32 although it would probably collapse to some higher density than iron on earth :P 21:11:39 Not necessarily; it could still collapse. 21:12:38 And it's around five times the Chandrasekhar limit, so it would have to be a neutron star at least. 21:12:47 well but what is the total mass of this, is it more than a minimum size stellar black hole? 21:12:54 oh 21:13:31 Phantom__Hoover: What's the biggest ball of iron we can do? I want one. 21:13:41 hm what is the range of possible neutron star masses... 21:13:42 Depends on how you define 'iron'. 21:14:10 Is electron-degenerate iron counted? Then you can have anything up to the Chandrasekhar limit. 21:14:28 Waitwaitwait. 21:14:28 Argh. 21:14:33 Phantom__Hoover: No I want something that looks like iron ok. 21:14:36 I mistook grams for kilograms. 21:14:39 X-C 21:14:40 X-D 21:14:53 "In general, compact stars of less than 1.44 solar masses – the Chandrasekhar limit – are white dwarfs, and above 2 to 3 solar masses (the Tolman–Oppenheimer–Volkoff limit), a quark star might be created; however, this is uncertain. Gravitational collapse will usually occur on any compact star between 10 and 25 solar masses and produce a black hole." 21:15:00 It's around a fiftieth of the Chandrasekhar limit, so it'd be a white dwarf. 21:15:09 I... nearly wrote "white dorf". 21:15:12 X-D 21:15:23 Phantom__Hoover: oh. 21:15:44 Or it might even just be a ball of iron. 21:15:45 Phantom__Hoover: So what's the biggest non-vertically-challenged ball of iron 21:16:14 Not sure; I'm not good with degeneracy pressures. 21:16:30 Phantom__Hoover: OK well what's the biggest ball of iron you can think of that you're sure is of full stature. 21:16:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_degeneracy_pressure 21:16:53 this sounds... backwards 21:16:54 Well, that settles it! 21:17:07 oerjan, not really, stuff gets smaller as it gets heavier. 21:17:10 Phantom__Hoover: ANSWER MEEEEEEEEEEEEE 21:17:41 \varrho? What the hell? 21:18:23 Phantom__Hoover: THERE ARE FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS 21:19:01 elliott, bang that into WA after s/m_e/mass of electron/, s/m_p/mass of proton/, s/rho/density of iron/, s/mu_e/1/ 21:19:14 Oh, and s/h/Planck's constant/ 21:19:37 Phantom__Hoover: I don't waaant toooo, mostly because Wolfram Alpha can't answer my follow-up question. 21:19:58 Sure, but I can answer it with the answer to the previous. 21:20:28 Well, it'd need another calculation, but that's just standard fluid pressure AFAIK. 21:20:39 Phantom__Hoover: Do you know what the next question is. 21:20:43 No. 21:21:28 -!- Ngevd has joined. 21:22:01 Phantom__Hoover: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28planck%27s+constant+%5E+2%29%2F%2820*mass+of+electron*%28mass+of+proton%29%5E%285%2F3%29%29*%283%2Fpi%29%5E%282%2F3%29*%28density+of+iron%29%5E%285%2F3%29 It fucked it up slightly I think, but I can't figure out how to fix it. 21:22:51 "A planet such as Jupiter has about the largest volume possible for a cold mass.[2] Add mass to Jupiter and the planet's volume, somewhat counter-intuitively, becomes smaller." 21:22:58 so yeah 21:23:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_star 21:23:52 Hmm, mu_e is the suspicious bit. 21:23:54 A rather limited subset of Minecraft could be considered a Linear Bounded Automaton 21:24:06 I say rather limited. 21:24:22 I mean, Turing-Complete enough for Wolfram to say it would be 21:24:23 It's theoretically possible to build a TM, I think. 21:24:34 it has been done, I think 21:24:39 Given procedurally-generated terrain 21:24:49 Erm, *circuitry. 21:25:02 The trick is to stick the player in a minecart and use them to load the tape. 21:25:06 Phantom__Hoover: Also its parenthesisation. 21:25:21 I don't think 20(m_e m_p)^5/3 is right. 21:26:05 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28planck%27s+constant+^+2%29%2F%2820*mass+of+electron*%28%28mass+of+proton%29^%285%2F3%29%29%29*%283%2Fpi%29^%282%2F3%29*%28density+of+iron%29^%285%2F3%29 21:26:22 http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/ElectronDegeneracyPressure.html 21:27:02 Deewiant, thank, you are a helpful person. 21:27:28 Deewiant: Thank, you are a helpful person. 21:27:41 `learn Finns are helpful, albeit grossly overpopulated (cf. 'Finland'). 21:27:43 I knew that. 21:28:12 (fizzie is helpful, and oko is helpful in an oko way.) 21:28:47 The two towns with the most esolangers are Helsinki and Hexham. 21:28:59 We should get twinned or something. 21:29:06 Phantom__Hoover: So do you know the answer now. 21:29:08 oko's not from Helsinki. 21:29:11 Can I ask 21:29:12 my 21:29:14 follow up question 21:29:24 Not yet. 21:29:48 cry 21:30:15 Phantom__Hoover, that makes EVEN MORE PEOPLE FROM HEXHAM RELATIVELY 21:30:20 Hang on. 21:30:35 Is there anybody other than Phantom__Hoover from the Edinburgh area on this channel? 21:30:50 No. 21:30:51 no 21:30:55 Good. 21:30:55 at least nobody who talks 21:31:06 How about Gregoria? 21:31:23 gergoria 21:31:44 * Phantom__Hoover realises that working out the mass from that pressure is non-trivial. 21:31:47 Follow-up anyway. 21:31:54 West Lafayette, Indiana 21:32:17 Phantom__Hoover: What would happen if we flung it at the Earth. 21:32:30 I could have answered that anyway! 21:32:38 NOT MY FAULT YOU GOT ME TO TYPE IN EQUATIONS 21:33:08 (The answer is 'sploosh'.) 21:33:19 That's 21:33:22 Not a satisfactory answer Phantom__Hoover 21:33:34 Phantom__Hoover: OK wait what if we just sort of glided it to the earth. 21:33:41 At, like, 1 m/s. 21:33:51 Sploosh. 21:34:01 Phantom__Hoover you are so bad. 21:34:25 At those scales, it's basically the same as throwing blobs of water at each other in zero gravity (im good analgogy). 21:35:12 Phantom__Hoover: OK but how close would it have to get before fun started happening on Earth (assuming the 1 m/s thing). 21:35:42 Quite far. 21:36:03 Phantom__Hoover: Duuude you suuuuck. 21:36:14 i was interpreting that sploosh as more the kind of insect on a windshield thing. 21:36:24 where earth, in this case, is the insect. 21:36:48 And then the ball of iron's windscreen wipers smudge us. 21:36:54 But Helsinki and Hexham... BOTH BEGIN WITH 'H' 21:37:01 Is there anyone from the Hague here? 21:37:04 Okay now I'm imagining a perfectly spherical ball of iron just sort of gliding through the heavens with enormous windscreen wipers. 21:37:06 Hexsinki. 21:37:22 hondtreim here 21:37:30 How can it have windscreen wipers if it's perfectly spherical? 21:37:42 Phantom__Hoover: advanced alien technology. 21:38:01 Phantom__Hoover: They're just regular car windscreen wipers but curved. 21:38:04 Phantom__Hoover: actually, a perfect sphere is reasonably easy to windscreen-wipe 21:38:14 They only wipe the front bit. 21:38:18 (The bit that's going forwards.) 21:38:19 Yeah, but they interfere with the sphericality. 21:38:26 Phantom__Hoover: They aren't part of the sphere. 21:38:27 They're just attached. 21:38:43 Oh. 21:38:44 How? 21:38:50 Magnets 21:38:51 Phantom__Hoover: advanced alien technology. 21:38:57 (Magnets don't count; they'd cause a distortion in the sphere.) 21:39:00 Phantom__Hoover: I don't know, how are they attached to cars? 21:39:06 * elliott genius. 21:39:17 elliott, cars aren't perfectly spherical. 21:39:21 elliott: advanced alien technology. 21:39:27 Phantom__Hoover: Okay, now I'm laughing. 21:39:37 (toyota is secretly grey operated) 21:39:46 Phantom__Hoover: OK it's perfectly spherical apart from a little indent where the wipers are attached, happy? 21:39:56 `addquote elliott, cars aren't perfectly spherical. 21:39:58 715) elliott, cars aren't perfectly spherical. 21:40:09 elliott, yes. 21:40:12 Sticky glue? 21:40:14 But SCIENCE isn't. 21:40:26 As opposed to non-sticky glue 21:40:34 * Phantom__Hoover wishes he'd set fire to that insect food in chemistry today just before the fire alarm went off. 21:40:40 Phantom__Hoover: Why amn't science hapey. 21:40:53 I missed the opportunity for the best moment of my life. 21:40:59 elliott: because gramer 21:41:00 X-D 21:41:07 elliott, becuase is 21th sentry. 21:41:09 sory, speeling 21:41:12 Phantom__Hoover: :( 21:41:22 oerjan: *becuase 21:41:43 elliott: you didnt misple why 21:42:25 oerjan: I misspelled wyh just fine. 21:43:59 O QUAY 21:44:17 Quay is pronounced similar to "key". 21:44:38 oak quay 21:45:11 i no i couldnt fine any homonyms of kay 21:45:44 homofones 21:45:52 Wiht a "ph" 21:46:07 homofun, o qi 21:46:11 O god, r we goan to degenerate in2 thi style of Bascule the Teller? 21:46:17 Yuo probly no tihs arleayd 21:46:26 NOOOO 21:46:45 hoos bascule the teller 21:46:55 The 21:47:07 The A-level pass rate is 97.8%. 21:47:10 I don't even. 21:47:23 Grade boosting 21:47:30 I get that. 21:47:31 o dat buk 21:47:37 O god, r we goan to degenerate in2 thi style of Bascule the Teller? 21:47:39 Gone wild. 21:47:58 Phantom__Hoover: Turns out my mind has been permanently warped by "i"s close to 2s. 21:48:02 fuck thii2 2hiit. 21:48:20 Phantom__Hoover: Although it dissonantly reacted by my zzo38 detector triggering on "O". 21:48:21 2ollux the teller 21:48:31 i2 dat 2o 21:48:40 oerjan: YUO'RE DOING IT WRONEGE ;____; 21:48:49 * elliott cry 21:49:15 * oerjan i22e2pon2ible 21:49:26 Issessponsible. 21:49:37 me too 21:49:43 *Issesponsible. 21:49:46 oerjan: you have to duplicate your "i"s ok ;__; doing otherwise is issesponsible 21:50:09 iif u 2ay 2o 21:50:28 That would be really scary if not for the "u". 21:50:32 * Phantom__Hoover notes that Higher pass rates have climbed in the past too, is confuse. 21:51:13 Phantom__Hoover: they probaly wrap wen hiting 100% 21:51:35 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:52:32 "they" 21:53:07 elliott: Pointing out the only correctly-spelled word? :P 21:53:12 elliott: (But "wrap" is write too!) 21:53:15 Gregor: You mean: the only error. 21:53:18 Oh, damn. 21:53:25 NOTE JOKE IN LAST MESSAGE 21:53:27 LAUGH LAUGHABLY 21:53:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_circuit 21:53:38 Wow, you can make magnetic circuits? 21:53:51 Phantom__Hoover: *brain explodes* 21:54:13 Eh, it's shaping flux lines. 21:55:03 -!- tiffany has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:55:39 -!- tiffany has joined. 21:58:13 I'm going to do some more work on Salesman 21:58:28 By which I mean completely changing all the commands for the fourth time 21:58:58 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:59:37 oerjan: 21:59:39 boundedEnumToBits :: (Enum a, Bounded a) => a -> [Bool] 21:59:39 boundedEnumToBits a = go (fromEnum (minBound `asTypeOf` a)) (fromEnum (maxBound `asTypeOf` a)) (fromEnum a) 21:59:39 where go :: Int -> Int -> Int -> [Bool] 21:59:39 go m n v 21:59:40 | m == n = [] 21:59:42 | v <= mn = False : go m mn v 21:59:44 | otherwise = True : go (succ mn) n v 21:59:46 where mn = m + ((n - m) `div` 2) 21:59:48 help it's ugly :( 22:00:14 Rewrite it in C. 22:00:19 hmm, is there any project whose name starts "ya" as an acronym/initialism/abbreviation for "yet another", but is the first project doing what it does? 22:00:21 Gregor: lol 22:00:43 ais523: X-D 22:00:49 ais523: yapwnsyaaaiafyabitfpdwid 22:01:07 @ = yapos 22:01:31 yaaa 22:01:37 yamlpopl -> Yet Another My-Little-Pony-Oriented Programming Language 22:02:30 ais523: Those were funny >:( 22:02:53 A Salesman implementation must be able to solve the Travelling Salesman problem MULTIPLE TIMES during the course of execution 22:03:01 elliott: you highlighted me earlier 22:03:07 along with the rest of the channel 22:03:08 Nisstyre: No, you must be mistaken. 22:03:35 I am not 22:03:38 I have a record of it here 22:03:49 ais523: Better ban me. 22:04:06 Gregor: Have you removed the line from the logs yet??? 22:04:28 elliott: ALL THE LINES 22:04:33 Thx! 22:04:51 you highlighted me and many other at precisely 12:53 Wednesday November, 09 2011 EST 22:05:06 anyway 22:05:07 your Haskell looks ugly :P 22:05:10 Precisely? So, not another second passed? 22:05:17 Not another femtosecond? 22:05:21 name your goddamn variables properly 22:05:35 Those variables are perfectly well named. 22:05:36 mnvmnvmnvmnvnvmnvmnvn 22:07:25 elliott: sorry, I was out taking a phone-call 22:07:46 ais523: What are we meant to do when we need someone banned urgently? 22:08:43 WEP 22:08:55 hi oerjan "wep" oerjan 22:09:22 AN NASHING OF TEITH 22:09:36 hi 22:09:37 ban me 22:09:41 elliott: ask #freenode? 22:09:52 ais523: hmm... I'll give it a shot 22:11:30 Oooooh, now I'm curious who needs urgent banning. 22:11:35 (And from where) 22:11:50 Me. 22:11:51 From here. 22:12:25 ida taut itwas obivus 22:12:48 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:23:40 Argh, how long until I go to university and get journal access. 22:24:07 -!- Ngevd has joined. 22:27:14 Damn, I just realised Salesman is gonna have to simulate a basic economy 22:27:35 Is this the travelling salesman problem taken to the next level? 22:27:51 This is getting pretty complicated 22:28:17 Yes 22:28:22 As an esolang 22:28:27 What, really? 22:28:28 elliott, did you ever come up with your version of Brook? 22:28:29 Awesome. 22:28:55 With dynamic graph-changing 22:29:33 But it's a complete graph which is by default Cartesian 22:30:12 It's possible to change arc weights, but only by doubling them or halving them (may change that) 22:33:10 Thing is, in Salesman, the salesman actually buys and sells things 22:33:10 It may have multiple commodities 22:33:47 It is going to be so damn complicated 22:36:16 -!- Aune has quit (Quit: Lmnar). 22:36:20 Minecraft has made me view all trees as ridiculously slender. 22:36:51 Aww, now you got me thinking about Slender Man 22:37:55 Well, goodnight 22:38:06 Phantom__Hoover: XD 22:38:08 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: ...). 22:38:25 well, I need to sleep, night → 22:38:32 `addquote Minecraft has made me view all trees as ridiculously slender. 22:38:34 716) Minecraft has made me view all trees as ridiculously slender. 22:40:17 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:41:29 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 22:41:29 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Changing host). 22:41:29 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 22:42:27 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:00:13 THE COURT: You don't want to get me started on this. You big companies do not own the U.S. District Court. So, yes, you can have your protective orders, but when it comes to a public hearing, I'm not going to have to resort to Morse Code to understand what you are trying to tell me. 23:00:17 that's a neat putdown 23:10:05 heh 23:12:25 (that's from Oracle vs. Google, against an Oracle lawyer) 23:12:56 yeah, that judge is pretty awesome 23:12:59 -!- Rod56 has joined. 23:13:38 I get the feeling from reading the rest of the trial that the judge thinks both sides are bullshitting him 23:13:45 also, that he is quite probably correct 23:13:48 yeah 23:14:31 Argh, mplayer isn't working. 23:16:55 ais523: wow, you mentioning that made me look at groklaw for the first time in years, which lead to me finding out that the original editor retired from it 23:17:03 that's weird, feels like a universal constant changing 23:17:14 elliott: you missed PJ retiring? wow 23:17:23 ais523: I don't read Groklaw :) 23:17:25 she still turns up now and again, especially if SCO are doing things 23:17:42 but it's mostly written by Mark, who not only claims to be a lawyer, but obviously /is/ one from the way he talks 23:18:10 heh 23:19:21 ais523: what's the current state of SCO, btw? 23:19:34 elliott: they sold pretty much everything they had to various shady companies 23:19:45 and then tried to resume their litigation against IBM, believe it or not 23:19:48 ais523: :D 23:19:54 did it work? 23:19:55 they tried to not resume IBM's counter-litigation against them at the same time 23:20:04 I'm not sure 23:20:11 * Phantom__Hoover → sleep 23:20:12 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:20:16 I think they haven't heard back from the judge yet, who is probably still laughing 23:20:24 ais523: SCO's lawyers were paid upfront or something, right? 23:20:28 ISTR something like that 23:20:36 yes, they were 23:20:40 and are probably regretting that 23:20:41 :D 23:21:08 I think the only reason they haven't just defaulted is to prove to other potential customers that if they're hired for something, they'll go through with it no matter how stupid it is 23:21:14 ooh, they renamed themselves! 23:21:19 who, SCO? 23:21:22 yep 23:21:27 I don't think so 23:21:29 to... TSG Group, Inc.... so they're The SCO Group Group, Inc. 23:21:31 ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCO_Group 23:21:38 oh, wow, I forgot about that 23:21:47 The Santa Cruz Operation Group Group, Incorporated 23:22:03 *Operations 23:22:22 ais523: I don't think so? at least Wikipedia says it's Operation 23:22:28 perhaps 23:22:34 my memory is shaky 23:22:36 it's still laughing too 23:22:40 See also: Caldera OpenLinux and The Santa Cruz Operation 23:22:40 [edit]The Santa Cruz Operation (SCO) 23:23:02 The SCO website now gives details of a new appeal against Novell, Inc, dated September 9, 2010 and presumably lodged with the United States Court of Appeals. 23:23:11 oh, there's more info below 23:23:17 SCO filed amendments to their certificates of incorporation on 15 April 2011. The SCO Group, Inc. was renamed TSG Group, Inc., and SCO Operations, Inc. became TSG Operations, Inc.[4] 23:23:18 On 30 August 2011, the United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit affirmed SCO's loss to Novell in the second jury/bench trial.[70] SCO's appellate brief had argued that there were evidentiary errors and other issues at trial. The affirmed verdict held that Novell did not transfer the UNIX copyrights to SCO in the amended asset purchase agreement, and that Novell has the right to waive certai 23:23:18 n alleged license violations. 23:23:23 hmm, so it's over? 23:25:21 elliott: SCO can theoretically appeal to the supreme court, but they haven't tried 23:28:08 -!- Rod56 has left. 23:29:24 bye Rod56 23:31:37 hmm, this feels like interproject limbo :/ 23:31:58 elliott: what does? 23:32:06 this not coding anything :) 23:32:24 but you have plenty of projects 23:32:27 Kitten, for instance 23:32:38 indeed 23:32:51 unfortunately, they're swapped out to disk 23:32:55 and the scheduler isn't looking at them 23:33:22 you're the scheduler? 23:33:48 ais523: if I say yes, will you think that means I have control over it? 23:33:53 I uninstalled scheduler long ago and switched to procrastinator 23:33:59 elliott: I'm not sure 23:34:21 oh no 23:34:23 oh /no/ 23:34:29 oh /NO/ 23:34:37 olsner: my scheduler did that all by itself. 23:34:37 I think I've figured out what's happening 23:34:43 with what? 23:34:49 my scheduler is swapping out all currently active processes 23:34:58 because the next one it'll switch to 23:35:00 is @ 23:35:26 oh no 23:35:35 is @ as disastrous as Feather? 23:35:46 I thought feather too 23:35:50 ais523: I don't /know/, it's only ever run as a background task 23:35:54 the black holes of vaporware 23:36:25 ummm, someone give me something really interesting yet surprisingly easy to do, it's the only thing that can stop this 23:36:43 elliott: write an optimizing parser for C 23:36:53 ais523: an /optimising/ parser? 23:36:55 yes 23:37:16 a parser that optimizes itself? 23:37:19 ais523: go on :) 23:37:20 I suppose you could at least do constant-folding in the parse 23:37:31 possibly even dead code elimination 23:37:57 ouch 23:38:03 that doesn't sound fun _or_ easy :) 23:38:17 @ time 23:38:21 elliott: hmm 23:38:28 different language, then 23:39:31 project "try and get interested in working on my current projects first": failed 23:39:39 something has gone horribly wrong :( 23:40:09 elliott: hmm… write a Scheme impl in JS 23:40:22 I've already done that :) 23:40:35 I think writing more JS code would be very bad for my health 23:40:45 js impl in scheme; get them to run each other 23:41:05 monqy: they would cry 23:41:14 in harmony 23:41:21 scheme because 23:41:22 js is horrific 23:41:24 js because 23:41:26 it can never truly be scheme 23:41:41 JavaScheme 23:41:49 jeme 23:42:27 -!- derrik has quit (Quit: left). 23:42:44 write an optimizing parser for ... malbolge. 23:43:03 oerjan: thanks: now i just want to give up on computing altogether 23:43:16 ME GO TOO FAR 23:43:40 wait 23:43:44 i can think of something 23:43:47 that might work 23:43:59 however 23:44:06 it relies on me having a recent enough copy of it 23:45:04 2011-03-09.txt:19:30:24: elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~/Code/sixth$ make >/dev/null; wc -c sixth.o 23:45:04 2011-03-09.txt:19:30:24: 75 sixth.o 23:45:04 2011-03-09.txt:21:31:02: 81 sixth.o 23:45:05 that's a start 23:45:08 * oerjan suddenly wonders if feather supports concurrency 23:45:33 oerjan: I don't see why not 23:45:37 probably lock-step 23:45:57 um i meant something _not_ lock-step 23:46:35 2011-09-03.txt:01:51:37: also, I still have the code for that boot sector Forth... 23:46:36 work with me here :'( 23:46:57 2011-03-12.txt:09:01:17: I think si/di are free, it's just a boot sector. But it's tiny, so I don't really care that much :P 23:46:58 waht 23:47:14 ... my graphics card has an audio card. 23:47:17 oerjan: I don't think race-conditiony-concurrency is possible 23:47:19 My graphics card ... has an audio card. 23:47:29 MY GRAPHICS CARD HAS AN AUDIO CARD *brain explodes* 23:47:29 those are some weird animals http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/11/09/nyheter/utenriks/romfart/astrobiologi/dyrenesnyheter/18952143/ 23:47:58 Gregor: your what has a what now? 23:48:10 olsner: my GRAPHICS CARD has an AUDIO CAAAAAAAARD 23:48:22 your audio card has a smell card but you cannot detect it *MWAHAHAHAHA* 23:49:05 2011-05-17.txt:17:19:05: I think all it does is listen to conversation by the actual elliott and relay back and forth 23:49:05 wat 23:49:13 context? 23:49:18 2011-09-15.txt:02:44:51: Some researchers put forth the thesis that monads could help with concurrency. At this point, it looks like their thesis has failed. 23:49:18 wat 23:49:21 ais523: i dunno :D 23:49:48 Bears etc. stranded in space 23:49:55 wow, I never made sprunge pastes in here in 2011-{03,04,09} 23:49:56 that's 23:49:59 really inconvenient 23:50:01 oh wait 23:50:02 oerjan: maybe he can get fnarf feedback 23:50:05 yes i did :> 23:50:20 [elliott@dinky esoteric]$ grep -ri --color=always 'elliott.*sprunge\.us/' 2011-0{3,4,9}-??.txt | wc -l 23:50:20 104 23:50:22 here goes nothing 23:50:29 -!- sllide has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:52:02 I love bears etc.. They are super cute! 23:52:04 (to microscopic animals to be) 23:52:07 http://sprunge.us/fhXB ouch 23:52:25 monqy: i think the english name is tardigrade 23:52:28 yes 23:52:36 I love bears etc.. They are super cute! <-- referring to hairy gay men 23:52:43 (to microscopic animals to be) <-- referring to his sperm 23:53:09 Gregor, master of interpretation 23:53:48 monqy: do you remember news-ham 23:53:55 yes 23:53:59 zeptobot too 23:54:01 elliott: was the hyphen part of the name? 23:54:10 to distinguish news-ham from newsham 23:54:11 also, why isn't monqy from Hexham? his name sounds like he should be 23:54:14 ais523: yes, obviously; newsham owned newsham 23:54:19 monqy: they were different people? 23:54:19 `addquote also, why isn't monqy from Hexham? his name sounds like he should be 23:54:21 717) also, why isn't monqy from Hexham? his name sounds like he should be 23:54:25 ais523: newsham was a person 23:54:28 news-ham was my bot 23:54:31 ah, aha 23:54:32 news-ham - any relation to new-sham? 23:54:33 how confusing 23:54:37 ais523: a _complete_ coincidence, I assure you! 23:54:44 newsham just stole the name of the fine news-dispensing ham IRC bot. 23:54:52 why would i be from hexham 23:55:00 because you're called monqy 23:55:04 how is it pronounced, anyway? 23:55:09 http://sprunge.us/GhYf news ham code (sometime before I added non-bbc feed support) 23:55:09 is that a hexham thing 23:55:09 monqy: if you're not from finland you're from hexham 23:55:13 like "monkey", or slightly differently? 23:55:15 it's so short :') 23:55:40 monqy: note that the "you" in olsner's statement applies to you specifically 23:55:43 not to people in general 23:56:00 aha, http://sprunge.us/OYVO is one of the latest versions 23:56:03 elliott: what language is that? golfScheme? 23:56:07 ais523: picolisp 23:56:25 the generic rule is not that much more complicated though 23:56:39 esolang idea: a language that isn't sexp-based, but looks visually the same as Lisp 23:57:21 what exactly did news-ham do? and why isn't it here atm? 23:57:30 i haven't really decided what pronunciations for "monqy" are acceptiable 23:57:35 http://sprunge.us/eXiM god, I forgot how lovely this thing is 23:57:51 I was not expecting that 23:57:51 ais523: It was the world's least interesting non-ham-related news bot. 23:57:58 ais523: whenever you pinged it, or said "what are the haps my friends", it'd give you a random recent BBC news topic 23:58:13 that sounds surprisingly useful for a #esoteric bot 23:58:18 ais523: you could also specify various topics which it would filter the result to (basically whatever BBC's feeds had, plus the Onion, plus a few other things) :P 23:58:19 oh, it had reddit too 23:59:25 http://warpdrive.se/9473 hilarious