00:00:01 Sgeo|web: http://apfelmus.nfshost.com/articles/monoid-fingertree.html 00:00:12 ooh, ty 00:00:19 elliott: ooh, here we go. Call me Pupa. 00:00:26 tswett: No. 00:00:48 Or call me "tswett, you should shut the fuck up, you've had too much caffeine lately". 00:01:38 I'm having trouble distinguishing your behaviour from normal :) 00:01:47 Do you always have this much caffeine? 00:02:03 Nope. 00:02:18 Though, elliott. What do I do in this channel on most days? 00:02:30 Not talk, but I presume that's because you don't actually pay attention to it. 00:02:47 Yeah. 00:03:13 I've only seen the .. syntax in extensions to record stuff 00:03:37 Sgeo|web: It's a placeholder. 00:03:52 Sgeo|web: Note how it isn't code. 00:03:55 "we want the annotations to fulfill" 00:04:40 * Sgeo|web is too tired for this 00:05:01 That's what you always say. 00:06:35 * Sgeo|web has no desire to use global mutable variables, the ReaderT stuff should be sufficient I think 00:07:05 Sgeo|web: Monad transformers over IO are ugly. You're binding a C API, so you're going to have to do a lot worse than global variables. 00:07:13 They won't be exposed from outside the package, so it's quite irrelevant. 00:07:40 Basically you're saying you'd rather infect all user API code with an implementation detail, than use one of the provided facilities intended for binding to C APIs. 00:10:23 Sgeo|web: But *shrug* your code 00:10:31 unsafePerformIO to make a global variable is intended to be used like that? 00:11:43 unsafePerformIO was originally part of the FFI addendum to accomplish things like that. See http://hackage.haskell.org/package/safe-globals for a way to hide the ugly. 00:13:06 Suppose something stupid like multiple invocations of the library.. somehow 00:14:04 That's impossible. 00:14:14 Unless the AW API supports that. 00:14:21 Which we've established it doesn't, because it does awful global things. 00:15:35 A hypothetical library that does 00:15:42 You don't have one of those. 00:15:57 Or are you trying to write one binding that works with multiple hypothetical APIs without changing the implementation?? 00:16:08 Heck, why not just make one Haskell library that binds to every C library ever without changing. 00:16:11 dwim :: IO a 00:16:17 Hmm, I probably should ask just to check that aw_int and the like don't send stuff over the wire 00:17:04 If it does, it would be .. absurd to set every global to a blank variable 00:17:11 What? 00:17:33 -!- tiffany has quit (Quit: nyu~). 00:17:42 * elliott doesn't think you have any idea what you're doing, if you think there's going to be a large number of globals, or if you think "blank variable" means anything. 00:18:06 The C API has a large number of .. global-like things 00:18:19 What makes you think you need to reflect those in Haskell? 00:18:25 And I'm just hoping they're stored locally, rather than on the server 00:18:32 I was suggesting these for internal use, because that's what you'd talked about earlier. 00:18:49 elliott: I wouldn't, I would just.. I think kmc suggested setting those to a default value every function call 00:19:04 Except for the ones that the function call needs modified 00:19:14 -!- TeruFSX_ has joined. 00:19:16 Maybe it would help if you actually communicated the API issues involved rather than just asking as vague a question as possible. 00:19:32 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 00:20:00 elliott: Many function calls require setting what the API calls attributes, such as using aw_int_set("AW_TELEPORT_X", 0); before the function call 00:20:19 Events also often receive data which you retrieve by, e.g., aw_int("AW_TELEPORT_X") 00:20:22 Googling doesn't suggest those quotes should be there. 00:20:30 They look like #defines. 00:20:39 Oops, you're right 00:20:59 Sgeo|web: Every call has a defined set of parameters, yes? Going by http://www.activeworlds.com/sdk/aw_object_add.htm. 00:21:26 Then you just need to poke each parameter, make the call, and read the parameter result. 00:21:26 Yes 00:21:31 (In the thread that's making the API calls, etc. etc. etc.) 00:22:05 I'm... pretty sure I only need to ensure sequential access 00:22:16 Rather than all having to be in the same thread 00:22:49 Sgeo|web: So you want a global lock. Now we'll spend 3 minutes as you convince yourself that these two situations are equivalent. 00:23:09 What two situations? 00:23:19 This was the situation that I was using the global lock for 00:23:41 Sgeo|web: The situation of having one thread making all API calls, and every thread acquiring a lock on each API call. 00:23:57 Also remember that Haskell threads are very cheap, if that's what you're worrying about (tens of thousands at a time is fine). 00:24:19 I thought global lock is easier to implement 00:25:14 Both are trivial. Which one you want depends on your situation. 00:28:01 Man, this code is hard to get a handle on. 00:28:05 (Not your thing.) 00:33:48 There, now my machine is simultaneously running Debian (naturalismo), Windows 7, and #1 contender for the "Even Worse than Windows" prize Mac OS X. 00:34:58 Gregor: At least OS X doesn't need Cygwin. 00:35:18 cygwin in wine on os x? :) 00:39:08 olsner: You should liberate this Python code by porting it to Haskell for me (note: incredibly non-trivial) 00:40:11 first: liberate it from its misery using rm -fr 00:40:21 But it's gooooood. 00:40:41 then rewrite in haskell sometime, I might not feel like helping you with that :P 00:41:57 nah, python code can't be good... I'll admit that it can work, but *good*? 00:42:45 olsner: It's an ACID STM database with both file-based and network access in less than 6000 lines of code! 00:43:39 aha! haskell has STM built-in! :) 00:43:56 hmm, or maybe it's a library, w/e 00:43:56 olsner: um, it's missing the database part. 00:44:06 ghc has built-in _in-memory_ STM 00:44:16 there's no way you can extend that to be file-based or w/e 00:44:39 bah, how can it be hard? I have no knowledge of this being hard! 00:45:12 olsner: you'd have to completely rewrite the ghc stm internals :P 00:45:15 Doesn't the M refer to memory? 00:45:22 So for things other than memory stuff, why call it STM? 00:45:32 Because it's still memory, it's just non-volatile memory 00:45:39 elliott: trivial! (given a sufficently smart reader to finish the exercise) 00:45:41 Also because you have to have all the database in-RAM in Durus and similar 00:46:07 olsner: I think the one thing every expert can agree on is that STM is not trivial :P 00:46:27 their readers are just not sufficiently smart 00:47:19 Could STM be implemented without compiler support? 00:47:24 Albeit potentially inefficiently? 00:48:01 I think they tried putting it in .NET and it was horribly inefficient, don't recall how much compiler support it took 00:48:06 Sgeo|web: trivially 00:48:45 olsner: tons; the problem is that stm sucks without purity 00:49:59 Would it be particularly wrong for me to name a type Object? 00:50:21 Not only will people kill you, but they might kill your family too. 00:50:23 Object - not even once. 00:51:20 * Sgeo|web should learn lenses 00:51:29 I can only assume that lenses make dealing with records easier 00:54:25 lenses are just Lens whole part = whole -> (part, whole -> part) 00:54:34 name :: Person -> (String, String -> Person) 00:54:45 name (Person name age email) = (name, \name' -> Person name' age email) 01:00:56 Sgeo|web: ^ 01:01:05 Ok 01:01:24 + helper functions for modification, accessing within state monad + template haskell to derive them from a record definition 01:02:42 hmm, 6000 lines of python, hopefully that's more python than I've ever read before 01:03:01 meh, probably not :( 01:04:23 olsner: Actually 5288 (+ 461 lines of mostly boilerplate) 01:04:50 mostly boilerplate? doesn't that apply to the rest of the python code? 01:05:00 unless it's all obfuscated python! 01:06:42 olsner: it's actually remarkably boilerplate-free :P 01:06:58 which makes it hard to read, I'm trained to ignore all but every fifth line when reading Python 01:07:29 -!- ive has joined. 01:07:34 :) 01:19:38 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 01:37:00 Lenses form a category too, I think. And yes that is very good if you need more you could use a Template Haskell code to automatically generate the lens codes for each field. 01:43:53 Can Template Haskell generate Template Haskell? 01:44:03 Sgeo|web: I don't think so. 01:44:31 But you might be able to fake it. 01:45:00 time for *Template* Template Haskell! 01:45:09 @quote majestic 01:45:09 monochrom says: Welcome to #haskell, where @remember's are in majestic stereo! 01:45:17 wrong majestic quote, nm 01:46:28 There should be some macro system that can do things with a Haskell code. That way you could generate Template Haskell and various other things. (There is C preprocessor but that isn't very good for Haskell.) 01:47:21 I mean, a macro system that could be used to make up do-notation, rather than requiring do-notation built-in to Haskell. 01:49:15 For some reason I was under the impression that quasiquoters take arbitrary strings 01:50:10 They do. 01:50:33 @quote majestic 01:50:33 Anonycale says: Welcome to #haskell, where your questions are answered in majestic stereo! 01:50:39 @quote majestic 01:50:40 Anonycale says: Welcome to #haskell, where your questions are answered in majestic stereo! 01:50:41 @quote majestic 01:50:41 monochrom says: Welcome to #haskell, where @remember's are in majestic stereo! 01:51:03 @quote template.haskell 01:51:03 ghc says: Can't represent a guarded lambda in Template Haskell 01:51:05 @quote template.haskell 01:51:05 ghc says: Cannot desugar this Template Haskell declaration 01:51:06 @quote template.haskell 01:51:06 ghc says: Can't represent a guarded lambda in Template Haskell 01:51:07 @quote template.haskell 01:51:07 ghc says: Can't represent a guarded lambda in Template Haskell 01:51:37 meh, can't find it *shrug* 01:52:25 @quote majesty 01:52:25 malcolm says: I don't believe you need to invoke the full awesome majesty of Template Haskell 01:52:43 now, imagine the awesome majesty of template template haskell 01:53:31 :D 01:54:21 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:54:54 -!- ive has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:55:41 It occurs to me that Stanislav probably doesn't like Haskell 02:08:33 Quasiquotes do take arbitrary strings; it is sometimes the problem due to if you are using a Haskell syntax in them, and you have |] in a string or comment; it won't work. 02:11:40 If you combined Template Haskell with a system of macros that works well, you might be able to make up do-notation and more-notation using that, and possibly such things as anonymous classes, autonumbering, and so on. 02:14:07 Vorpal: BTW, Aero was off by default, it's smart about not turning it on on systems without good graphics. 02:16:57 -!- ive has joined. 02:18:33 Isn't more notation your idea? 02:19:23 Sgeo|web: Yes it is. But I mean a more general system that could be used to make up such things, and even things already in Haskell such as do-notation. 02:20:16 It occurs to me that Stanislav probably doesn't like Haskell 02:20:21 see comments on nock or urbit post or w/e 02:20:27 but it's okay because: stanislav is an idiot! 02:20:39 elliott: nock? urbit? 02:20:58 http://moronlab.blogspot.com/2010/01/nock-maxwells-equations-of-software.html 02:20:59 http://moronlab.blogspot.com/2010/01/urbit-functional-programming-from.html 02:21:00 read in order 02:28:18 In Nock, I don't quite get ^ 02:28:38 It seems to be meaningless when applied to a cell 02:28:52 ...or is that the point? 02:29:20 Hmm, I see other things with similar stuff 02:29:27 I'm going to guess that that's the point 02:33:20 hmm, haven't got my thinking brain in, that looks tricky 02:33:24 Sgeo|web: The Urbit post doesn't actually require any understanding of Nock, FWIW 02:33:39 * Sgeo|web is now reading the Urbit post 02:33:43 I've never actually done the challenge, but might sometime 02:37:04 "These C functions, or jets, will take noun arguments and produce noun results. In between, they can do whatever the heck they want - so long as they produce the same result as the actual Nock formula." 02:37:07 This sounds familiar 02:40:29 "On Mars, SIN is taken to an extreme. Logically, Urbit is a single broadcast network - a single big Ethernet wire. Everyone sees everyone else's packets. " 02:40:41 I was about to complain about security, but that's stupid, if you want security, encrypt it 02:41:51 Nobody tell Sgeo|web how IP routers work. 02:42:22 At least SIN forces people to realize it 02:46:44 "Read the whole thing. Haskell fans, you'll know exactly where you can stick your monads." 02:46:45 o.O 02:47:05 There is a distinction between monads in general and monadic I/O 02:47:19 The guy is hardly an expert 02:47:21 (on Haskell) 02:47:40 Monads and monadic IO are regularly conflated even by Haskellers 02:48:10 elliott: They are? 02:48:18 Well, not _good_ Haskellers. 02:48:22 Monadic I/O isn't even fundamentally monadic in any way. 02:48:29 It's just a convenience thing. 02:48:51 But it's trivial to find a tutorial written by someone good enough at Haskell to write real applications in it that talks about how monads are there to let you isolate IO side-effects. 02:48:52 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:48:53 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host). 02:48:53 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:49:31 Oh, well, *tutorials*, sure. 02:49:49 good morgen comraderies 02:50:59 Good IO to you. 02:51:01 I mean monad. 03:01:56 Sgeo|web: this is the particular stanislav remark I was directing you to: "Algebraic types and immutability: Yuck. Your Haskellian / type-theoretical mis-spent youth is showing. Actual computers contain rewritable storage and will likely always contain it. This is something to be celebrated, not a set of genitalia to be shamefully hidden behind a Christian fig leaf." 03:02:19 he then proceeds to link to that stupid land of lisp comic whose own author happens to be a haskell fan :P 03:02:51 I remember seeing someone say that data stores are monads 03:02:59 I have no idea what that means precisely 03:05:31 " For instance, to write Urbit in Haskell, you would need a Haskell interpreter written in Haskell. " 03:05:43 What does ghc-api etc. count as? 03:06:00 not homoiconic at all, and practically irrelevant in context 03:14:39 * Sgeo|web attempts to understand FRP 03:15:35 RIP Buick "Pimpmobile" Skylark, bereaved from us by the unwavering yet abiding clutches of the sibling forces of time and entropy (and perhaps the recklessness of its owner). Though it met its end in the shrinking confines of a large industrial steel compactor, it will always be remembered as the glorious mechanical steed that it was, matched only by the unbridled power of 150 horses and maybe better cars. 03:16:52 ...Did Conal invent FRP? 03:16:57 -!- Jafet has joined. 03:18:02 Sgeo|web: yes? why is this surprising 03:18:06 "FRP was invented by a HUMAN???" 03:39:44 Would it be a terrible idea to try to make an FRP version of the AW stuff? 03:43:16 yes 03:45:10 Why? 03:45:20 Don't answer because I don't understand FRP 03:46:11 yep! also because fitting existing C libs to FRP is painful. you would want reactive-banana, and that's way more suited to gui frameworks than network stuff 03:48:21 "as the library can be hooked into any existing event-based framework " 03:50:34 Sgeo|web: yes, i have used reactive-banana, i am aware of how it functions 03:50:50 Huh, I didn't know you could put a where clause there 03:51:58 where 03:52:49 https://github.com/HeinrichApfelmus/reactive-banana/blob/master/reactive-banana-wx/src/Arithmetic.hs line 41 03:53:49 it's a declaration 03:53:52 declarations have where clauses 03:54:12 I guess I thought only top-level declarations could do that 03:58:09 Is reactive-banana good in general? 03:58:14 Or just for hooking into existing stuff? 03:59:11 what is there but hooking into existing stuff 03:59:26 you don't live in a world where your library - opengl, sdl, gtk, whatever - uses frp, do you? 04:00:37 So, addHandler is provided by reactive-banana 04:01:30 No, wait, fromAddHandler 04:01:31 And newAddHandler 04:02:43 newAddHandler is not always needed, it is just a helper 04:03:20 Still not quite sure what it does, but I guess its type is IO (EventSource ())? 04:03:24 hey, I found The Best Language Ever http://bondi.it.uts.edu.au/ 04:03:33 it has more braces than lisp 04:04:09 Sgeo|web: read the example 04:04:33 I am 04:04:54 Oh, right, EventSource is application-defined 04:05:45 Patashu: looks cool 04:06:47 Somehow, fromAddHandler knows to take a ...so, fromAddHandler always takes a pair of AddHandler a, and a -> IO () 04:07:06 uh, no 04:07:43 http://www-staff.it.uts.edu.au/~cbj/patterns/13012009/ found the bondi examples 04:07:47 let cloud = Banks [Bank (Name "Cloud",Accountss [Accounts (AccountName "Qin",Balance 3333.00)],TermDepositss [TermDeposits (TdName "Cloud",MinDeposit 500,Period 1,Rate 3.25)])];; 04:08:17 doesn't look unreasonable 04:08:51 * Sgeo|web has no idea what <$ is 04:08:52 :t <$ 04:08:53 parse error on input `<$' 04:08:56 :t (<$) 04:08:56 forall a (f :: * -> *) b. (Functor f) => a -> f b -> f a 04:09:08 Oh right, that thing 04:09:14 :t ($>) 04:09:15 Not in scope: `$>' 04:09:20 boo 04:10:30 :t mapAccum 04:10:30 Not in scope: `mapAccum' 04:12:29 roll :: () -> StdGen -> (Reels, StdGen) 04:12:31 Uh, why 04:12:33 Why the () 04:13:50 ? 04:14:38 http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/reactive-banana/0.4.3.0/doc/html/Reactive-Banana-Implementation.html this is a little clearer, tbh 04:15:43 As is http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/reactive-banana/0.4.3.0/doc/html/Reactive-Banana-Model.html when I stop being scared of the scary type, I think 04:16:05 model is MUCH clearer 04:16:17 trust me 04:16:34 note how that omits 04:16:36 import qualified Reactive.Banana.PushIO as Implementation 04:16:38 Sgeo|web: ^\ 04:17:36 .Implementation has an example though 04:17:38 >.> 04:18:22 read Model. if you can't grok Model you will fail at the lower-level implementation of THE SAME API 04:19:05 * Sgeo|web is reading 04:19:20 Seems simple so far, and I finally understand Behavior and Event, I think 04:20:07 behavior is a signal. Time -> a 04:20:20 like audio, or mouse position 04:20:21 ....apply takes a function which itself changes over time? 04:20:35 event is a set of one-off occurrences 04:20:44 e.g. a key being pressed 04:20:54 [(Time,a)] 04:22:14 What sort of things are Behavior f (a -> b)? An example? 04:23:08 any behavior constructed with the provided functions that is function-valued 04:27:41 I don't see any such 04:27:52 Except for making constant values into behaviors 04:28:24 Sgeo|web: see FRP class 04:29:19 Uh, stepper, I guess? 04:30:13 That ...no? 04:31:43 ANYHING ENDING -> Behavior 04:31:45 sheesh 04:32:23 i.e. stepper, accumB 04:32:31 Two of those assume I have events that are functions 04:32:53 so make them. sheesh 04:32:53 (yeah yeah, bad use of "are") 04:36:13 Wait, FRPs are Applicative 04:36:43 ....Not entirely sure if that really helps me 04:37:26 uh 04:37:27 no 04:37:31 behaviors are 04:37:40 frp is just "implementation of frp" 04:37:54 its a code organisation tool for model vs implementation 04:38:00 nothing semantic 04:39:28 ShShould I shy away from Discrete? 04:39:48 no 04:42:41 Does the Alternative/MonadPlus instance for Parsec follow the identity law? 04:43:04 not left identity! 04:43:13 or was it right 04:43:50 -!- DCliche has joined. 04:45:04 counter = accumulate ($) 0 (fmap (+1) eventUp `union` fmap (subtract 1) eventDown) 04:45:15 How does fmapping onto an Event produce a Behavior? 04:45:25 I know it doesn't follow the right zero law; but some people (myself included) think the right zero law should not be one of them, and only the left zero law and monoid laws should apply. 04:45:46 (That is, for MonadPlus. For Alternative, the left zero law is optional too.) 04:45:50 I guess I should look for accumulate in reactive-banana 04:45:55 But I don't see it 04:46:16 where's that from 04:46:25 http://apfelmus.nfshost.com/blog/2011/03/28-essence-frp.html 04:46:31 that post is old 04:46:57 api has changed 04:46:58 -!- Darth_Cliche has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:47:09 i think that's accumB or sth 04:47:58 Here is an instance which I believe does follow the identity laws: instance Alternative IO where { empty = fail []; x <|> y = catch x $ \e -> modifyIOError (\z -> if z == userError [] then e else z) y; }; 04:49:09 It follows the left zero law, too; so you could make it MonadPlus as well if you do not care about the right zero law. 04:50:14 Did you know that the Gregorian calendar and Gregorian chant are both named after popes but they are two different popes? 04:50:44 Do you think my instance follows the laws correctly? If not, please tell me what is wrong with it. 04:52:46 Sgeo|web: in the comments you can see accumukate 04:52:51 become accumB 04:55:42 ty 04:59:14 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4113207/frp-reactive-how-to-use-filtere is this the same package? 04:59:20 What would be the correct parameters to define the Ecclesiastical moon in Swiss Ephemeris? What would be the parameters to define artificial satellites? Are either of these possible? 04:59:33 No 04:59:40 zzo38: that No was not to you 04:59:59 Sgeo|web: see reative-banana tag 05:03:36 The parameters are: epoch of elements, equinox, mean anomaly at epoch, semi-axis, eccentricity, argument of perihelion, ascending node, inclination, and whether it orbits the Earth or the Sun. Any of these parameters can have T terms where T = (tjd - epoch) / 36525. For example, the intramercurian Vulcan uses: J1900,JDATE, 252.8987988 + 707550.7341 * T, 0.13744, 0.019, 322.212069+1670.056*T, 47.787931-1670.056*T, 7.5 05:03:58 I think maybe I should see things in Behaviors and Events as "trapped" (bad terminology, I know), in an Applicative, and I use <$> and <*> the way I might with a monad 05:04:08 No do notation though 05:05:48 Sgeo|web: A monad is really applicative too, but the way it is programmed in Haskell doesn't make it do that normally. 05:06:28 zzo38: I know that monads are applicatives, but not all applicatives are monads 05:13:51 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 05:33:59 gah 05:34:02 durus, reveal your secrets 05:35:07 @src Alternative 05:35:07 class Applicative f => Alternative f where 05:35:07 empty :: f a 05:35:07 (<|>) :: f a -> f a -> f a 05:43:13 * elliott very briefly considers demanding Sgeo|web write his code for him. 05:45:28 Patashu: bondi looks very interesting. 05:45:39 bit light on documentation.. 05:48:46 demanding sgeo|web to write your code: a good idea???????? 05:51:24 monqy: you might like my code, it will be a good code (once it writ) 05:51:40 oH??? 05:52:30 monqy: yes: a fully-ACID object persistence store with STM semantics 05:52:54 tl;dr: write program with standard STM transactional semantics, get reliable, durable file-based storage 05:53:16 mm 05:53:21 later: transparent operation on datasets larger than memory (perhaps), server support 05:54:17 monqy: now, guess what language has an existing, industrial-strength, corporate-backed, open-source, performant ~5500 line implementation of all this already 05:54:20 (do not cheat; good luck guessing) 05:54:32 (yes, including full transactional STM semantics and server support) 05:54:37 (ok not the larger-than-memory stuff but w/e) 05:55:42 it's too late, I cheated hours ago 05:55:49 by briefly looking at the chat back then 05:55:58 monqy: bad person 05:56:01 ;_; 05:56:12 monqy: but seriously, who is gifted with all that knowledge and then forced to write python code :( 05:56:48 bad people 05:56:53 i mean 05:56:56 bad people forced 05:57:03 i feel bad for whoever was forced 05:58:30 monqy: http://sprunge.us/NjEY 05:58:35 this is the kind of thing i have to base my code on :P 05:59:29 :( 05:59:55 i;ve have to lots of python recently because schoole (ha) ha() 06:00:05 monqy: incidentally i'd like to just use acid-state but it has severe limitations for me :( 06:00:10 :( 06:00:18 you have to declare the transactions on your data-type upfront 06:00:26 and can't remove them or anything, only add 06:00:28 not compositional 06:00:50 i think the only way to fix that with acid-state's model would be if you could serialise functions 06:04:08 -!- DCliche has quit (Quit: You are now graced with my absence.). 06:04:20 monqy: but yeah... hopefully it will be good??? 06:04:34 hopeuflly 06:05:43 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:06:03 -!- mtve has joined. 06:06:38 monqy: it would be nice if i could find a way to benefit from sharing... like, you don't want adding an element to a huge map to write out the huge map again in the transaction, you'd like to just write out the additional stuff and have a pointer back 06:06:40 will have to see 06:06:53 would be especially nice if i can do that for every structure, not rewriting each structure for this 06:17:21 monqy: gdtodntihgt monqey 06:17:33 goodotnighte 06:17:34 goudnihgt 06:17:57 to do: read acid-state's Log.hs and things, read durus, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz 06:18:00 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:31:01 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:34:40 Is the ring of sets normalizable? 06:36:50 Probably not. 06:42:36 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:48:06 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:24:35 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:33:39 -!- ive has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:44:41 -!- CraZzYboY90 has joined. 07:44:56 -!- CraZzYboY90 has left. 07:49:43 lol I crashed x 07:57:01 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 08:12:27 -!- ive has joined. 08:33:41 -!- ive has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:56:46 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:58:31 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined. 08:58:31 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Changing host). 08:58:31 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined. 09:05:45 Vorpal: BTW, Aero was off by default, it's smart about not turning it on on systems without good graphics. <-- nice 09:12:09 Yes, it only enables Aero if your WEI is 3 or more. 09:12:14 (Windows Experience Index.) 09:12:39 fizzie: the global WEI or the graphics one? 09:12:45 the former doesn't really make sense 09:13:13 after all my desktop scores 2.5 due to a slow hdd for windows 7. The rest of the components score 7.5-7.8 09:13:14 I think it's the base score. 09:13:19 hm 09:13:28 But not sure. 09:13:52 I don't remember it areo was on or not after install. It is turned off now though, and with windows classic theme on 09:16:49 http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-vista/Windows-Experience-Index-Understand-and-improve-your-computers-performance-in-Windows-Vista "Base score: 3.0 to 3.9 .. Windows Aero will typically be enabled automatically on the computer." 09:17:13 They might well have changed the logic on seven, though. 09:17:35 After all, the scores themselves go up to eleven^W7.9 now. 09:18:07 fizzie: what was the old max value? 09:19:21 5.9 in Vista. 09:19:36 strange they didn't make it an even 6.0 09:19:52 It also starts at 1.0 and not zero. 09:19:56 heh 09:41:27 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:45:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:50:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:50:47 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:57:13 I can't tell if I'm well-rested or tired. 09:57:29 I got 6 WHOLE HOURS OF SLEEP in a row so I should be way more rested than usual. 09:57:46 however, I feel like dog shit. This is probably because I only got 6 hours of sleep still. 09:59:27 ouch 09:59:44 * CakeProphet is a zombie. 10:00:25 I haven't slept well either. And I have to drive today. 10:00:27 Ugh. 10:00:35 oh did I mentioned that a deer hit my car. Yes, that car I just bought to replace my old car not too long ago. 10:00:45 Vorpal: that's always fun. Driving on no sleep is great. 10:00:50 an adventure! 10:00:58 I slept some, just not as much as I would want to 10:01:03 like 6 hours instead of 8 10:02:20 CakeProphet: besides I will be picking up another guy on the way to university, since we live in the same town and study the same stuff at university we usually travel together to save money. 10:02:26 oh and it is my parents car 10:02:32 parents' 10:04:30 fun. 10:04:44 I got a speeding ticket in my parent's car when I was borrowing it to drive when I didn't have a car. 10:04:54 a few weeks ago. 10:05:12 but yeah, lately I've been doing that 4-hour nap thing. 10:05:16 I mean, not voluntarily 10:05:36 it just happens that I'll go to bed at like 10 AM and wake up at 2 AM unable to go back to sleep until the sun comes up 10:07:08 CakeProphet: I doubt I will get a speeding ticket. 10:07:16 I never had problems keeping the right speed 10:08:11 that's the one bit of recent misfortune I could have prevented, I suppose. 10:09:08 besides it is a Fiat (though a large station wagon one), so not exactly a fast car anyway. And although there is no automatic speed thingy, the terrain is kind of hilly so you need to adjust speed all the time anyway, hard to forget about speed then. 10:11:57 well it's usually not that I forget speed it's just that I don't consider the same speeds to be fast that other people seem to 10:12:11 eh? 10:12:19 there are mountainous roads where I live and I still drive like a madman. :P 10:12:20 doesn't it say on the sign what the speed limit is 10:12:25 oh yes. 10:12:31 that's beside the point. :P 10:12:36 and you have a speed indicator in the car? 10:12:39 yep. 10:12:43 then what is the issue 10:12:56 well see... 10:13:02 maybe this is just an American thing, but 10:13:20 some people intentionally break the law by driving fast because they think the speed limits are ridiculous. 10:13:38 I am one such person. 10:13:44 anyway hardly mountainous roads here, just slightly hilly. I live on a plain, it is just that the road goes over the few hills that exist. 10:13:57 CakeProphet: that is rarer in Europe 10:14:03 I've noticed. 10:14:09 in previous speed limit conversations. 10:14:11 CakeProphet: beside you could lose your driving license from that if you go too fast. 10:14:14 with Europeans. 10:14:20 right 10:14:30 CakeProphet: don't you have speed cameras in US? 10:14:46 not many. I've seen maybe one or two in my lifetime. 10:15:01 and they're easy to spot and slow down for, hardly something to make me paranoid all the time. 10:15:05 quite a few here 10:15:09 and there are mobile ones too 10:15:22 also I know the speed traps along my commonly taken routes, so I know when to slow down. 10:15:24 as in, mounted on a trailer, that they park somewhere for a day 10:15:28 so I can pretty much drive as fast as I want otherwise. 10:16:04 most American drivers on the highway are in fact speeding much of the time. 10:16:22 strange 10:16:33 I'm one of those insane people that are driving faster than the "normal" speeders. 10:16:38 ... 10:16:44 irresponsible 10:17:05 I have have to get an insane number of speeding tickets to lose my license, but yes I suppose. 10:17:14 CakeProphet: anyway, where you speeding when you hit that deer? 10:17:20 I'm not chalking up my speeding ticket to mere bad luck. 10:17:28 Vorpal: yes, though I would say it was more like the deer hit me. 10:17:38 would you have been able to stop if you had not been speeding? 10:17:41 basically crashed itself into the side of my car. I didn't even see except for in the corner of my eye. 10:17:54 a split second thing really. nothing I could do. 10:18:02 not when speeding indeed 10:18:12 but maybe you should try keeping to the speed on the signs 10:18:13 not at any speed. >_> 10:18:29 oh did I mentioned that a deer hit my car. Yes, that car I just bought to replace my old car not too long ago. <-- what happened to the previous car? 10:18:30 I could have been going 25 mph and the same thing would happen. 10:18:49 Vorpal: it got old. 10:18:51 ah 10:18:56 engine started knocking. 10:19:08 CakeProphet: anyway you have to keep real life and GTA separate :P 10:19:16 believe me I do. 10:19:27 didn't sound like it 10:19:58 sheesh, Europeans are all strict on their speed limit stuff it seems. :P 10:20:39 it's an incredibly minor thing. I drive reasonable speeds when appropriate. Such as in traffic. 10:21:10 to say that I should follow a flat rate of speed as posted by a sign is ridiculous, in my opinion. 10:21:34 of course you have to drive slower sometimes. I never claimed otherwise 10:21:39 but that should be the upper limit 10:21:57 especially when the people setting up those signs generate large amounts of revenue from people going faster than said number on sign. 10:22:25 I mean, I wouldn't drive 70 km/h on a road marked 70 km/h if the condition of the road, visibility and other traffic didn't allow that in a safe way. 10:23:03 CakeProphet: wait what? Please don't tell me that speed limits is done by for-profit corporations in US.... 10:23:15 local government. 10:23:30 right, crazy state system in US 10:23:33 though a number of private businesses can benefit. 10:23:49 for example there are online ticket paying services. 10:23:52 -!- ghost_ has joined. 10:23:57 huh 10:23:59 who make money from setting up their services for local governments. 10:24:02 things like that. 10:24:07 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 10:24:20 -!- ghost_ has quit (Client Quit). 10:24:29 so in my mind speed limits are just a way to take money from me. I suppose I've been doing a good job of allowing them to do that, since I ignore them. :P 10:24:42 ... you are insane 10:25:00 well, no need to state the obvious. 10:26:23 * CakeProphet has generally never thought of himself nor intended to ever be a law-abiding citizen. 10:26:39 cakeprophez.state=insane; //consider it noted 10:30:01 bbl, university 10:55:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 11:40:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:41:40 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 .). 11:45:56 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 11:46:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:01:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 12:01:15 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:01:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Changing host). 12:01:15 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:02:16 @src forever 12:02:17 Source not found. You untyped fool! 12:06:48 > sequence$[[1,2,3],[4,5,6]] 12:06:48 [[1,4],[1,5],[1,6],[2,4],[2,5],[2,6],[3,4],[3,5],[3,6]] 12:21:06 -!- augur has joined. 12:30:12 Why the $? 12:40:01 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:41:06 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:41:37 CakeProphet: the council here in Birmingham is actually cracking down on private parking enforcer people 12:41:49 some of them are acting vaguely dubiously 12:47:16 Private parking tickets have been a very contentious issue here in Finland too for a while now. 12:47:35 ISTR that a court did sort-of legitimize them quasi-recently though, much to the disappointment of some/many. 12:48:05 Also they had given a parked-on-the-grass-because-answering-an-emergency ambulance a parking ticket or something like that. 12:53:31 Right; the district court and the court of appeal both said private companies just plain aren't allowed to write parking tickets, but in June this year the supreme court reversed their decisions and said it's okay. 12:55:09 (Though the... uh, committee for constitutional law, has stated that according to them private parking-enforcement is unconstitutional.) 12:59:30 Also another funny story: one parking enforcement company (Parkki Oy) apparently had ticketed the car of another; then the other company sent the first one a 350 eur "clean-up" bill because their car had a sticker saying you're not allowed to attach/leave any material (like ads or whatever) to it. 13:04:08 fizzie: good to hear this story here, I've been too lazy to follow the discussion :) 13:04:35 I've been too don't-have-a-car to follow it. 13:04:51 Though apparently they've been leaving parking tickets to bicycles too. 13:05:12 Not that that's exactly enforceable, what with no license plates or anything. 13:05:49 (The companies in question seem to be just a slight bit overly profit-oriented.) 13:10:34 -!- boily has joined. 13:12:16 fizzie: I find it's best not ask any questions of Madoka-Kaname concerning what the hell they're doing with lambdabot. 13:12:29 also, I private parking tickets = the most absurd thing I've ever heard of. 13:12:54 * CakeProphet actually still has an unpaid parking ticket from the police department on his campus. 13:14:46 -I 13:15:37 As far as I can figure out, the current status in Finland is that they can write tickets, but they can't force the owner of the car to pay them if e says someone else was driving, so they'd have to go to court, which they haven't so far done with anyone; on the other hand, there's also a law initiative thingie to explicitly legalize private parking enforcement, but it's not law yet. 13:17:10 in the case of campus parking tickets they can simply put a hold on my account. 13:17:32 which makes it impossible to do important things like fix financial aid, register for classes, and ultimately graduate. 13:17:52 until I give them $25 for not having a little sticker on my car. :) 13:18:22 so absurd. 13:24:06 @hoogle String -> String -> String 13:24:06 System.FilePath.Windows (<.>) :: FilePath -> String -> FilePath 13:24:06 System.FilePath.Posix (<.>) :: FilePath -> String -> FilePath 13:24:06 System.FilePath.Windows addExtension :: FilePath -> String -> FilePath 13:25:05 CakeProphet: there was a case found recently where a carpark had rigged its pay-and-display ticket machines to deliberately miscount the money put into them 13:25:24 and then they clamped cars which stayed longer than the amount actually printed on the ticket, and charged ridiculous amounts to unclamp them again 13:27:03 it's vaguely interesting that they got caught, actually 13:28:12 > unwords $ map shows [1,2] ++ map (++) ["red", "blue"] <*> [" fish"] 13:28:14 "1 fish 2 fish red fish blue fish" 13:28:26 ais523: I would think they stick out like a sore thumb if they're charging ridiculous amounts. 13:28:37 for the unclamping? no, they all do that 13:28:52 and that's being clamped down on too 13:28:59 ha. ha. ha 13:29:01 :P 13:29:11 not deliberate, but I noticed it before I pressed return 13:29:17 > intercalate ", " $ map shows [1,2] ++ map (++) ["red", "blue"] <*> [" fish"] 13:29:18 "1 fish, 2 fish, red fish, blue fish" 13:31:17 what is the purpose of shows again? 13:31:39 er, I mean, obviously I know what it does but what is the benefit of it over using ++ explicitly. 13:37:39 @hoogle (Applicative f) => f (a -> b) -> f a -> b 13:37:40 Control.Applicative (<*>) :: Applicative f => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b 13:37:41 Control.Applicative (<**>) :: Applicative f => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b 13:37:41 Control.Applicative liftA :: Applicative f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b 13:38:21 CakeProphet: 13:38:28 > let f 0 = ""; f n = f (n-1) ++ show n in take 5 $ f 500000 13:38:28 "12345" 13:38:28 (4.61 secs, 478035512 bytes) 13:38:28 > let f 0 = id; f n = f (n-1) . shows n in take 5 $ f 500000 "" 13:38:28 "12345" 13:38:30 "*Exception: stack overflow 13:38:30 "12345" 13:38:30 (0.64 secs, 215319872 bytes) 13:39:16 ah 13:40:16 would it be fair to say that shows is similar to CPS?? 13:42:02 > iterate (. shows n) id "" 13:42:03 Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char] -> t' 13:42:03 against inferr... 13:42:12 :t iterate 13:42:14 forall a. (a -> a) -> a -> [a] 13:42:37 erm, nevermind :P 13:45:43 -!- zzo38 has joined. 13:45:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:53:30 -!- variable has quit (Excess Flood). 13:59:37 -!- variable has joined. 14:28:24 -!- Guanxin has joined. 14:28:46 -!- Guanxin has left. 14:34:34 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:35:08 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:35:29 -!- sllide has joined. 15:03:55 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 15:18:20 I found some things about new version of Microsoft Excel. If you enter a text into a cell that starts with "A1-" then it will be formatted as an Islamic date (even in the English version). There is also a BAHTTEXT function which converts a number to Thai text and adds "Baht" suffix. There is no function for English numbers text. Apparently they added that feature for the purpose of ordering Thai food. 15:28:12 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:32:03 According to Wikipedia, "Baht" is the Thai currency. So it doesn't seem to make sense to use that for ordering Thai food within the United States. 15:39:17 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude. 15:43:34 "It's been suggested (by an anonymous Excel MVP) that the Excel programmers enjoy Thai food, and they created this function to facilitate email orders to Redmond Thai restaurants. This theory has not yet been confirmed -- but then again it hasn't been denied either." 15:54:15 Actually from what I can find, the real reason seems to be that it was included in older Thai versions of Excel, but the new version includes all the functions including non-English functions. 15:57:31 I try to run Sakura MML compiler to MIDI, but I get error message about ConvToHalfSign1. 15:59:56 In addition, all menus are completely unreadable; they have only question marks on them. 16:01:06 -!- chickenzilla has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:01:10 Maybe it is for Japanese system only? 16:01:11 -!- chickenzilla has joined. 16:04:23 zzo38: forall f g xs. map f (map g xs) = map (f.g) xs 16:04:24 http://www.channel4.com/programmes/spaced/4od 16:04:25 Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 16:04:26 Oh god. 16:04:27 Oh god. 16:04:29 is this rewrite rule used by default in GHC? 16:04:32 What if it never comes back up. 16:04:38 also the corresponding filter rule? 16:04:39 What if they've taken it down for good. 16:05:07 IT'S JUST LIKE THE LAST EPISODE OF SPACED 16:05:54 -!- Ngevd has joined. 16:16:41 I don't know if such rewrite rule is used by default 16:16:48 Hello! 16:23:05 zzo38: ah just read about "list fusion" 16:23:18 that uses rewrite rules to remove intermediate lists between some common list functions. 16:25:38 {-# RULES 16:25:39 "++" [~1] forall xs ys. xs ++ ys = augment (\c n -> foldr c n xs) ys #-} 16:25:48 is the rewrite ruke for ++ 16:25:53 *rule 16:26:05 -!- elliott has joined. 16:27:03 the map rewrite rules are quite clever. 16:33:42 elliott: hey, how are you? 16:33:59 annoyed at tswett for stealing ais523's challenge to me :) 16:34:10 He did? 16:34:15 see a-d 16:34:40 Where am I seeing a-d? 16:35:03 Ngevd: it's a reference to the nomic Agora 16:35:05 http://agoranomic.org 16:35:10 Oooh 16:35:11 we had a suspicion it might be Turing-complete 16:35:12 Ngevd: duh. :P 16:35:24 so I challenged elliott to try to prove it, as e had proven for believed-state-of B Nomic 16:35:29 That big scary nomic 16:35:34 ais523: I did? wow 16:35:43 Ngevd: it's not scary, there's like 6 active players and nothing's happening 16:35:44 didn't you write a some-language-to-B compiler? 16:35:49 ais523: oh, hmm, I do recall that 16:35:55 elliott: it's coming out of a slump atm 16:35:57 Which is the big scary nomic? 16:36:00 back when i used to be cool :) 16:36:08 Ngevd: none, nomics aren't popular enough to be big and scary 16:36:13 Ngevd: Agora is often called scary, but it isn't really 16:36:14 blognomic players think agora is scary because they're silly 16:36:16 or at least shouldn't be 16:36:23 agora is also very slow unlike blognomic :P 16:36:25 people see the numbers on the ruleset and get scared 16:36:32 ais523: i had a dream where blognomic died because i went idle, btw 16:36:47 that's a weird dream 16:36:55 I like how LibreOffice autocorrecst naive to naïve and then highlights it as a spelling error. 16:37:07 with a recommendation of naive. 16:37:20 ais523: what's surprising is that they actually took it seriously, and moved to another game, which was hosted on something almost like a google group, but defying all logic 16:37:31 CakeProphet: heh 16:37:57 elliott: don't google groups defy most logic anyway? 16:37:58 I had a dream that I could administer a nomic 16:38:04 Then it all went horribly wrong 16:38:07 there's only a bit remaining left to defy 16:38:08 Or was that real life? 16:38:11 ais523: you haven't seen my dream programs 16:38:19 no, probably nor has anyone else 16:38:20 I have a dream I was playing awesome pen and paper RPGs 16:38:28 ais523: I have 16:38:30 do you see them visually? or do you just dream they're there? 16:38:33 16:38:44 ais523: I dream that I have friends who like them and play them. 16:39:02 then I wake up to the painful sting of reality. 16:39:02 ais523: I see them visually in a dream! 16:39:30 I just thought I autotabbed, but I really just typed "Cake" 16:39:50 ais523: does blognomic usually spend entire dynasties constantly making proposals and never actually using them? 16:39:56 elliott: often when I'm dreaming, I don't see things as images unless I concentrate on what they look like 16:39:57 elliott: yes 16:40:05 normally, no more than two and a half rules, on average, will actually be releant 16:40:16 maybe I won't bother deidling 16:40:18 the others will be used once and then forgotten 16:40:31 Sad category: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Games_of_nomic 16:40:53 ais523: oh, and after i found out blognomic died, i realised it was another victory for agora :) 16:41:10 the perfect military strategy: annoy your opponent until you both get bored; the opponent dies weeks later 16:41:11 releant? deidling? what is going on in this conversation. 16:41:24 *relevant 16:41:31 and deidling is the opposite of idling 16:41:34 oooooooooh :> 16:41:37 as in, starting to do something, rather than starting to do nothing 16:41:43 ais523: well I got what releant was. 16:41:45 sometimes I fly around in a spaceship :> 16:41:50 but deidling did not look like de-idling. 16:42:05 ais523: don't, CakeProphet has ruined that smiley :'( 16:42:13 what are you talking about it's awesome. :) 16:42:18 i even told him about ESO's official copyright claim to it! but no. 16:42:24 it's the most obnoxious emoticon ever. 16:44:01 you can't get your emoticons mixed up with your peoplethoughts. It's not a very fertile mindset. 16:44:04 10:20:39: it's an incredibly minor thing. I drive reasonable speeds when appropriate. Such as in traffic. 16:44:04 10:21:10: to say that I should follow a flat rate of speed as posted by a sign is ridiculous, in my opinion. 16:44:04 oh, I get it: Americans are equipped with a psychic ability to tell whether there's other cars on the road they're on or not 16:44:23 elliott: no, just mirrors and stuff. 16:44:40 also I drive a lot at night, in a small town. 16:44:45 oh! so then you have infinitely fast reflexes when a car comes into view. ok 16:44:50 but no I'm not infallible. :P 16:45:20 elliott, Americans treat cars as we treat pedestrians, by and large. 16:45:24 CakeProphet: hmm, maybe we should institute some sort of maximum speed you can drive at on the roads, so that for the occasional case where a car does come in when you're not expecting it, your lack of fallibility doesn't lead to accidents or death... hmmmmmm... 16:45:31 s/fall/infall/ 16:45:38 Ngevd: heh 16:47:12 elliott: better solution: be American and therefore the best drivers in the world. 16:47:26 Nah, Icelanders are better 16:47:42 Don't you read your Scandinavia and the World? 16:47:58 10:23:03: CakeProphet: wait what? Please don't tell me that speed limits is done by for-profit corporations in US.... 16:47:59 10:23:15: local government. 16:47:59 10:23:30: right, crazy state system in US 16:48:12 Vorpal: it's not crazy when you have that much populated landmass 16:48:22 also local as in city government usually. 16:48:24 not states. 16:48:33 depending on the road probably. 16:48:54 actually no I think it's completely local except for interstate highways. 16:49:07 because speed limit changes between jurisdictions I find. 16:49:12 even on some highways. 16:49:27 though interstate highways tend to be fairly consistent for the most part. 16:49:52 12:59:30: Also another funny story: one parking enforcement company (Parkki Oy) apparently had ticketed the car of another; then the other company sent the first one a 350 eur "clean-up" bill because their car had a sticker saying you're not allowed to attach/leave any material (like ads or whatever) to it. 16:49:54 finland :') 16:50:10 and yeah, good luck trying to administrate every minute detail of American society from Washington DC. 16:50:13 Wait... you can do that in Finland? 16:50:49 -!- elliott has changed nick to Iambdabot. 16:51:10 > "hi" 16:51:11 "hi" 16:51:22 Yam be da bot? 16:51:31 @tell Madoka-Kaname Stop fucking with me already! 16:51:31 Consider it noted. 16:51:34 -!- Iambdabot has changed nick to elliott. 16:51:35 Vorpal: it's not crazy when you have that much populated landmass <-- indeed, but some of the stuff that is local govt in US should probably be federal IMO. 16:51:38 bbl 16:51:51 Vorpal: probably more the other way around. 16:52:20 elliott: that's a popular sentiment in the US. 16:52:32 more with conservatives but not exclusively. 16:52:44 i'm no libertarian :) 16:53:15 apparently everyone in the Us is a libertarian. 16:53:21 provided they know what it is. 16:53:32 (gross exaggeration) 16:54:05 hmmm I think I've got my first Skype spam. 16:54:21 "NOTIFICATION URGENT ALERT is calling you" 16:54:35 elliott: you use chrome/chromium right? 16:54:39 Wow, I didn't realise that exists, CakeProphet 16:54:40 yes 16:54:53 Ngevd: I was oblivious as well. 16:55:01 elliott: is there a way to make chrome and/or chromium save open tabs when you close it, and restore them when you open it. 16:55:10 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:55:10 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 16:55:10 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:55:18 Vorpal: yes. it's on the first page of preferences. did you check? 16:55:35 elliott: I did, I somehow missed it. Beats me why it isn't default though... 16:55:56 it's kind of annoying since i use sleep as tab gc :) 16:55:56 Vorpal, that feature reeeeaaally annoys me 16:56:01 elliott: I like how that is still somehow one of the reasons people prefer Firefox over Chrome, even though they both support it. 16:56:05 I close browsers to clear my mind 16:56:09 heh 16:56:23 i still have it on though, to recover from accidental closes 16:56:24 Ngevd: I just let them pile up until the browser gets sluggish, then I gc. 16:56:27 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:56:38 It's how I escape TVTropes 16:56:41 Vorpal: good luck with that, chromium takes about ten windows filled with tabs to get sluggish ime 16:56:51 and that's on this puny machine 16:56:51 this doesn't work well on my new computer though, it takes ages for firefox to get sluggish now 16:57:04 I mean, on my old computer 70 tabs was about it, now it is more like 700 16:57:10 (in firefox) 16:57:37 I think I'd disable reopening tabs on startup if the history was better. 16:57:56 I want my history to track which tabsets in which windows I had open at each given moment, and be able to answer questions like "what tab did I click a link in to open this other tab?". 16:58:03 elliott: btw I have to say that modern firefox are way less of memory hogs. 16:58:13 firefox versions* 16:58:16 History was accurate when browsing was one tab in one window, but that hasn't been the case for years now. 16:58:45 elliott: depends on what sort of history. The "you opened this page this day" kind of history still works, doesn't it? 16:58:55 elliott: have you noticed that sometimes chrome doesn't preserve google-searches-from-"omnibar" in history sometimes? 16:58:59 sometimes? 16:59:11 CakeProphet: dunno 16:59:33 Vorpal: yes, it records all pages you opened. here's another kind of history that also preserves that: an unordered set of pagse 16:59:34 pages 16:59:36 hmmm, and now for some reason I can't get it to do that. 16:59:47 Vorpal: the point is, since tabs have become commonplace, history is now throwing away a lot of relevant information 17:00:01 elliott: hm...? 17:00:09 what more is there than timestamp? 17:00:09 Vorpal: what 17:00:21 Vorpal: ok, history records the state of the browser 17:00:25 in varying degrees 17:00:26 throughout time 17:00:28 yep 17:00:33 degree 0: set of urls, no time information 17:00:37 sure 17:00:38 degree 1: ordered set of urls with timestamp information 17:00:43 yep 17:00:55 degree 2: ordered set of urls with timestamp /and tab layout/ information 17:00:59 ah 17:01:09 degree 3: ordered set of urls with timestamp /and tab layout/ information, plus tracks tab parentage (open link in new tab -> current tab becomes parent of created tab) 17:01:18 yes, degree 3 would actually be really useful for me 17:04:03 well okay 17:05:04 -!- monqy has joined. 17:07:13 I wonder if I should write still one round of assignments.... :/ 17:07:30 elliott: also instead of maintaining only a linear sequence of history for each tab it should be a multiway tree. :) so you can move forward, back, left, and right. 17:07:30 I'm afraid not many will care to do them. 17:07:39 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 17:07:39 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Changing host). 17:07:40 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 17:07:55 * elliott is guilty, I only did half of them 17:08:03 * elliott bad person 17:08:11 tabs are unnecessary, if you have w3m-style history 17:08:15 I haven't even clicked the link. 17:09:04 hmm, what does w3m history look like? 17:09:14 i've wanted a unified history-tab system for aaages 17:09:14 atehwa: no dupdog assignments? :P 17:09:34 "prove that dupdog is not Turing complete" would be a good assignment 17:10:00 elliott: w3m stores all history (also future history) until you explicitly throw it out 17:10:18 when you enter a new page, the page is added in history right above the page you came from. 17:10:19 Future history? 17:10:26 Ngevd: when you go back I assume 17:10:29 Aaah 17:10:34 it creates "future" history. 17:10:38 Ngevd: those pages where you've been but "back"-ed from. 17:11:15 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:11:53 atehwa: Meh, that doesn't store any hierarchy of recency information. :/ 17:12:01 (Or, where does it move the history entry if you open a page from history?) 17:12:04 CakeProphet: I can look into that. But I was thinking about making the next assignments in language design, not use. 17:12:41 atehwa: how about proofs instead! 17:12:51 elliott: the new pages are always added to the part of the history list where you currently are 17:12:58 hmm 17:13:05 actually I suppose the problem would be "prove that dupdog is or is not Turing complete" 17:13:05 CakeProphet: there were some proof assignments already 17:13:34 elliott: basically, w3m history could be augmented with link paths and recency lists, but I don't know if it improves it any 17:13:47 Would Hiafu be a compiled language? 17:14:05 atehwa: well, I need something along those lines, so that I can switch between currently-relevant pages without the hundreds of pages I opened in the meanwhile being in the way 17:14:09 -!- tiffany has joined. 17:14:10 12:13 -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Information on kallisti (account kallisti): 17:14:17 my web browsing strategy is not exactly conventional. 17:14:20 or productive. 17:14:21 12:13 -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Last seen : Mar 13 01:25:08 2011 (34 weeks, 2 days, 15:48:07 ago) 17:14:27 how long does it take for nicks to expire? 17:14:31 * CakeProphet wants that one. 17:14:32 Hello, tiffany 17:14:49 elliott: I sometimes specifically throw out cruft history in w3m in order to have a nice, clean history :) 17:14:53 hai 17:14:56 CakeProphet: /j #freenode, /nick kallisti, ask for it to be dropped 17:15:01 Howare you? 17:15:03 atehwa: that's revisionism :'( 17:15:10 elliott: no I think this is a trait common to some people. programmers especially. 17:15:11 s/wa/w a/ 17:15:18 (that kind of web browsing "strategy") 17:15:31 cakeprophet, this one was inactive for 2 years and I went to #freenode and it took them like a month to finally drop it for me :s 17:15:36 CakeProphet: most people say "oh i have SO MANY TABS" to mean enough tabs that you can't see the titles on one window 17:15:44 i mean enough tabs that you can't see the titles in ten irregularly-sized windows 17:15:46 elliott: basically, you could have a "history trashcan" for history that you haven't used for a long time :) 17:15:49 Would ~ATH count as an esoteric programming language? 17:16:05 no, only a joke language 17:16:19 apocalypse oriented programming. 17:16:45 Can I make an article for it? 17:16:48 On the wiki? 17:16:50 elliott: oh did I mention Act 6 is going to be amazing? 17:17:03 you know, now that I actually understand what is going on. 17:17:07 Ngevd: probably, but it wouldn't be very interesting, and nobody else would ever edit it :) 17:17:29 you should probably just link to the wikia article on it, if you /really/ want to. 17:17:36 anyway, hmm 17:17:44 i can work on my fun code or my easy code 17:17:47 easy code! 17:17:56 but fun code is fun 17:18:03 elliott: so you just leave tabs open so that your feeble monkey brain can revist them later to remember what the fuck you were doing? 17:18:07 monqy: but hard 17:18:14 hard is fun when it's fun 17:18:19 CakeProphet: no, i just leave tabs open because why would i close a tab 17:18:26 monqy: ok then you write it for me if it's so fun 17:18:32 but code is never fun :( 17:18:41 to sanely navigate a set of tasks at once. 17:18:42 >_> 17:18:43 * Sgeo|web always has excessive amounts of tabs open 17:18:58 I tend to prune my tabs these days. 17:19:30 having a workspace sort of system would be nice. basically tabsets instead of multiple windows. 17:19:39 CakeProphet: itt: firefox tab groups 17:19:41 (they suck) 17:19:45 I have a bonsai browser. 17:19:49 -!- tiffany has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:19:51 I prune it often and keep it small 17:19:51 is it any good 17:19:53 elliott: never used those, but I doubt it's what I want. 17:20:06 However, it looks like a full-sized browzer 17:21:06 16:04:23: zzo38: forall f g xs. map f (map g xs) = map (f.g) xs 17:21:06 16:04:29: is this rewrite rule used by default in GHC? 17:21:10 CakeProphet: see RULES pragmas in base source 17:21:37 elliott: already did. logread moar nub. 17:21:54 actually just look at the first thing I say when you join. 17:25:06 -!- tiffany has joined. 17:25:15 my hobby: patronizing people via ancient internet protocols. 17:25:27 good hobey 17:26:13 I wonder if IRC will be in Ancient History of PRogramming classes, 2000 years in the future. 17:26:32 what a terrible class that would be. 17:27:13 And then, according to the Internet Jargon File, Tim Berners-Lee, a member of the Equites class, created the Internet 17:27:28 actually that probably won't happen as we'll be part of the singularity hivemind and thus have infinite access to all accumulated human knowledge. 17:27:46 im future envy 17:28:29 another possible scenario: breakdown of civilization, end of human existence, long distances of space travel rendering an all-encompassing singularity impossible, etc, etc, etc, etc. 17:28:32 CakeProphet: or society has collapsed. 17:28:33 man predicting the future is fun. 17:28:53 snap 17:30:01 CakeProphet: I don't think you can make any reasonable prediction about that topic further into the future than 10-15 years. 17:30:26 I'd go on the safe side and say 10 years. 17:30:45 5-10 17:31:02 or you know, 1-10 17:31:56 man future speculation was so much easier when it was just about spaceships, lasers, and flying cars. 17:32:03 I predict that the Singularity will occur the day before Kurzweil would otherwise have died. 17:32:04 now we're getting into freaky shit. 17:32:12 (Joke shamelessly stolen from elliott.) 17:32:26 well of course, there could always be a meteor, nearby supernova or other rare catastrophic event, sure. But climate change probably haven't caused civilization to collapse in the next 15 years. Nor does singularity in that time frame seem likely. 17:32:35 Phantom_Hoover: I'm gonna feel really bad for the guy if it hits us the day after Kurzweil dies. 17:32:56 elliott, I'd be so busy laughing I'd be written off as a sociopath. 17:33:12 Phantom_Hoover: It's OK, those thoughts would be extracted from your head before they actually happen. 17:33:14 Nearby supernovae are fairly unlikely, IIRC. 17:33:38 Phantom_Hoover: isn't there one possible candidate that could fry us in gamma iirc? 17:33:41 elliott: america god bless neutrino 17:34:08 elliott: Do I have any reason for choosing one of reactive-banana or Yampa over the other? 17:34:09 Vorpal, a GRB, which is a fair deal less well-understood than a supernova, making predictions hard. 17:34:20 (Possibly replacing Yampa with that fork, Animas I think) 17:34:23 Phantom_Hoover: sorry, but what is a GRB? 17:34:49 Sgeo|web: use reactive-banana 17:34:56 Sgeo|web: but don't, if you're trying to do AW stuff 17:34:58 I wonder to what degree standardization lockdown (is there an actual term for that?) will slow down technological progress. 17:34:58 Gamma ray burst; an extremely bright, highly directional burst of gamma rays. 17:35:05 Phantom_Hoover: I thought those were caused by supernovas? 17:35:22 CakeProphet: nobody cares about standards 17:35:36 elliott: err. USB? 17:35:41 elliott: well I suppose they get revised pretty drastically over the years. 17:35:42 There are two kinds of them based on spectral data, and one of those is hypothesised to be caused by a certain class of supernova. 17:35:44 in any case. 17:36:00 elliott: Well, nothing wrong with making a normal monadic IO library for AW, then using reactive-banana on top of that, right? 17:36:00 Phantom_Hoover: ah 17:36:07 Vorpal: people regularly violate power specs for usb i believe 17:36:11 but will we be using HTTP like 100 years from now? 17:36:21 elliott: heh, so why does stuff not get fried? 17:36:39 Sgeo|web: you will find that frp does not help you at all here, at least not in current forms. but certainly, you will waste your time regardless of what i say, so have fun... 17:36:49 elliott: I guess I was referring more to protocols and specs than "standards", or were we talking about the same thing? 17:36:49 Vorpal: because computer manufacturers don't care about the specs either? 17:36:53 heh 17:37:13 elliott: so you mean devices request more than 500 mA? 17:37:15 hm 17:37:26 dunno, i just recall stuff violating the power stuff 17:37:49 this is how garbage collection works in elliotts brain 17:37:53 replace concepts with stuffs. 17:38:18 stuff stuff stuff 17:39:17 CakeProphet: quite a broken algorithm there. Since obviously this thing was still reachable 17:40:44 iirc, devices draw more than allowed by default without actually asking 17:40:55 Vorpal: well the rules still remain but more specific references are replaced by stuff. 17:41:02 hm 17:41:33 Vorpal: I think that's the sound of Vorpal overthinking it. :P 17:41:41 CakeProphet: that is more like lossy compression . 17:41:49 s/ \././ 17:41:52 yep, that's what that sound was. 17:42:14 CakeProphet: no it was me looking up how many "s" there were in "lossy" :P 17:43:18 sigh. this guy on reddit doesn't understand why a compiler could be faster than cpython 17:43:22 depends on how losy youar with yor verds. 17:43:26 elliott: whut. 17:43:37 elliott: I wonder if he knows how computers work. 17:43:43 CakeProphet: see http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/m4rbs/python_3_implementation_in_haskell/c2y45o5 onwards 17:44:32 "So what? The compiler used for C is pretty state-of-the-art too" hahahahahahahaha 17:45:12 yeah he doesn't get interpreter vs. compiler. 17:45:44 honestly why do you talk to people on reddit 17:45:46 I don't understand. 17:45:57 almost every comment I've read on reddit is bad. 17:46:20 i have nothing better to do 17:46:36 CakeProphet: anyway /r/haskell is almost universally intelligent 17:47:13 gcc is pretty good, but it's no specialiser. It can't turn an interpreter into a compiler as good as itself. 17:47:17 that would be a good compiler. 17:47:27 I want that compiler. 17:47:50 or, specialiser? 17:47:59 yes, that is exactly what specialisers do 17:48:00 click the link and read 17:48:48 "Otherwise the only way to make it faster is by analysing the program during run time and get the information there (jit)." 17:48:51 it is THE ONLY WAY. 17:49:02 to write something that is faster than an interpreter. 17:49:46 is this what Python mind virus does to some unfortunate souls? or is this something else? 17:50:24 How could one compile a language that uses eval? I mean, besides including an interpreter with it 17:50:49 Sgeo|web: how could one compile a language that uses printf? i mean, besides including a formatted printer with it 17:51:10 you could also jit evals. 17:51:18 sounds kind of unwholesome. 17:51:22 jitting evals. 17:53:58 -!- Taneb has joined. 17:54:03 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:55:11 elliott: you know you want to ditch @ and write the best programming language. 17:55:15 compiler. 17:55:20 That's what @ is, you moron. 17:55:55 hmmm, okay. 17:56:04 * Sgeo|web comments 17:56:27 Actually, that might not be the most accurate comment, but maybe it will be like a cluebat 17:56:39 * CakeProphet aggrieves. 17:56:47 or maybe you're just wasting time without the endless charm, charisma and genius required to make it an excellent fun time like i have 17:56:55 :DDDDDdddddddddd 17:57:18 elliott "not full of himself" hird 17:58:09 Maybe he is just thinking about eval? 17:58:46 I think he's just stupid. 17:58:50 >_> 17:59:31 elliott is clearly not full of himself. 17:59:36 and thinks super-fast optimized python builtins = magically the overhead of interpreting your program with no optimization isn't slow 17:59:36 He doesn't even capitalize his name. 17:59:40 People who are full of themselves capitalize. 18:00:05 Of course he's full of himself, it'd be extremely disturbing if he was full of someone else. 18:00:21 * CakeProphet is full of oerjan. 18:00:25 * CakeProphet burps. 18:00:44 s/u/e/ 18:01:26 Berps? 18:01:45 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/m4rbs/python_3_implementation_in_haskell/c2y51fr ;; I used bullet points, bold and em dashes, so you know it's authoritative. 18:02:05 "That is precisely the point you can barely optimize python via static analysis, the information to do that just isn't there." 18:02:05 but yes, if your Python libraries provided every single piece of code you needed as a C builtin... then your "Python code" is going to be fast. 18:02:22 I seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. 18:02:22 Gregor: You work in the dynamic languages space, find me one of them papers showing that the behaviour of dynamic programs can be statically analysed in the vast majority of cases. 18:02:23 I know I've read one. 18:03:02 There are lots of papers that make that claim, very few (to none) that back it up. 18:03:11 Gregor: OK, s/vast majority/some/ :P 18:03:26 optimizing python compiler + JITC eval = better Python 18:03:28 Gregor: This guy is claiming that you can do /so little static analysis/ that it's impossible for a static, optimising compiler to beat CPython. 18:03:35 Ever. 18:03:37 elliott: Yeah, that's kinda siwwy. 18:03:48 elliott: There's actually one on the dynamic behavior of Python out there somewhere :P 18:03:58 elliott: python is just too l33t and frexibul 18:04:34 I wonder if anyone's tried to write a Perl compiler. 18:04:41 * elliott tries to find other reasons to stop talkign to this guy 18:04:48 "While usually I'm quite the liberal/free market in economic terms" strike one 18:04:50 s/talkign/talking/ 18:04:51 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:04:52 elliott: @ 18:05:06 you've got a world to save. 18:05:09 "Ahh ok I think I understand where you're trying to get at. I agree modern fencing is definitely not nearly as effective as the real training and sword fighting people used to do. I think I misinterpreted "It wouldn't hold up against any sort of real combat"." 18:05:10 elliott: My attempt to find it again is yielding only my own paper :P 18:05:11 Phantom_Hoover: Look at this fucker. 18:05:15 Gregor: X-D 18:05:22 Gregor: I can cite that, there's no way he'd bother reading it! 18:05:53 elliott: My attempt to find it again is yielding only my own paper :P 18:05:55 ... 18:05:58 Oh snap, he plays DCSS. Strike two! 18:05:58 Wow, copypasta fail 18:06:03 Gregor: I can cite that, there's no way he'd bother reading it! 18:06:04 elliott: Here we go: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1862665 18:06:18 Eeexcellent. 18:06:19 elliott, ridiculous, obviously nicking your opponent on the wrist half a second before they run you through the heart makes you the victor! 18:06:20 elliott: HEY 18:06:27 Sgeo|web: Yo 18:06:45 I play DCSS... occasionally... 18:07:05 Sgeo|web: Wanna bet how long I'd bother arguing with you about the practicality of compiling Python? 18:07:15 THE RULES WORK. 18:07:30 elliott: you forgot the static compiler + dynamic JIT superfrankenstein 18:07:38 at the bottom of your list. 18:08:42 Gregor: Can I refer to you as a ``colleague''? It would boost my credibility. 18:08:49 lol 18:09:03 Gregor: THE BULLET POINTS AREN'T ENOUGH 18:09:05 We are colleagues at the International Institution of Esoteric Software Design 18:09:11 i.e. IIESD 18:09:11 #esoteric is friendship colleagues. 18:09:12 Great, thanks for the permission 18:10:20 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/m4rbs/python_3_implementation_in_haskell/c2y54qu 18:10:23 Gregor: *COLLEAGUEHI5* 18:10:32 -!- tiffany has quit (Quit: restarting in attempt to fix nvidia drivers). 18:10:38 elliott: *COLLEAGUEPOLITENOD* 18:10:42 X-D 18:10:53 Gregor: *COLLEAGUEFORMALHANDSHAKE* *COLLEAGUEBUSINESSMEETING* 18:11:03 Gregor: *COLLEAGUEAPPEARINGINSTOCKPHOTOSFORBADWEBHOSTINGCOMPANIES* 18:11:26 elliott: *COLLEAGUEPOINTINGATCOMPUTERMONITORWITHCHEESYGRINWHILEYOUTYPESOMETHING* 18:11:50 elliott: I think calling it a static compiler + dynamic JIT superfrankenstein would greatly lend to your credibility. 18:12:10 Gregor: *COLLEAGUESUBVERTINGYOURATTEMPTSTOGETPROMOTEDSOTHATICANRISEABOVEYOUINTHEPECKINGORDERANDRUTHLESSLYCUTYOUDOWNBECAUSEIHATEYOU* 18:12:24 elliott: *COLLEAGUETENUREBITCH* 18:12:32 Gregor: *COLLEAGUEMURDER* 18:12:33 -!- tiffany has joined. 18:12:37 ~The End~ 18:12:40 Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn 18:12:57 You scored a maximum 0.3/1000000000 points. 18:13:03 s/fix that sentence./ 18:13:05 Probably the fastest Python you could get today would be by compiling Python into JavaScript and then running it with V8 ;) 18:13:25 :-D 18:13:30 Gregor: That's... that's ALMOST tempting. 18:13:32 compile to Lua and LuaJIT 18:13:54 Gregor: 18:13:54 Posted 28 Sep 2008 at 14:03 UTC (updated 28 Sep 2008 at 16:33 UTC) by lkcl 18:13:55 pyv8 is an experimental project to combine two-way python bindings to v8 18:13:55 with the python-to-javascript compiler from pyjamas. a simple test has shown a ten times 18:13:55 performance increase of python code converted and executed as 18:13:55 javascript, when compared to running the same program as python. (to be 18:13:57 fair, cython gives a 100 times performance increase). 18:14:15 elliott: Hahaha X-D 18:14:50 CakeProphet: I'm not confident, but I would be unsurprised if compiling Lua to JS and running it through V8 was faster than LuaJIT. LuaJIT is really good, but JS has gotten a stupid amount of attention lately, and the Lua->JS semantic difference is very small. 18:14:59 Gregor: Still, 10x over a naive bytecode interpreter is not that impressive :P 18:15:03 Maybe it's even better now though. 18:15:17 elliott: 'struth 18:15:40 Clearly the bestest would be Fythe lololol 18:15:51 I do wonder if you couldn't do better than Pyjamas though, I think they're more focused on their AJAX GUI/FRP stuff than their translator... 18:15:54 Gregor: I'm blissfully unaware of the thriving world of, uh, JS development. 18:16:14 CakeProphet: No you're not, if you've used any JS app in the past few years 18:16:23 I think this person is assuming that since you can't always infer types, you can never infer types 18:16:30 Which might be the sort of assumption I might make 18:16:40 We detected that your computer does not meet the system performance requirements for MapsGL. Learn more about the system requirements for MapsGL. 18:16:42 ;____; 18:16:44 elliott: I... don't think that's how it works. 18:16:44 Have I mentioned that my new computer is supersweet? 18:16:46 * elliott crais 18:16:56 Gregor: Is it better than bsmntbombdood's? 18:17:04 elliott: Idonno, I don't have his specs. 18:18:07 `findlogs bsmntbombdood.*ghz 18:18:08 Gregor: What CPU, how much RAM :P 18:18:11 Nooo cheater. 18:18:13 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: findlogs: not found 18:18:16 That's not how you use logs anyway. 18:18:19 Eh :P 18:18:30 I got the part list anyway, so I'm like SO AUTHORITATIVE. 18:18:31 elliott: 6-core 3.1GHz AMD Phenom, 16GB RAM 18:18:54 Gregor: Well, same RAM, but he has a 4-core first generation i7... which is better, 'cuz, really, AMD. 18:19:07 Gregor: He gets bragging rights anyway on account of getting it years ago :P 18:19:08 Yeah, I shouldn't have let my friends talk me into getting an AMD >_< 18:19:17 I have a 3TB HDD :P 18:19:26 Gregor: Any SSD? 18:19:27 Gregor: huh cool I've got a V6 3.0L Honda V-Tec with I-can't-think-of-an-analogy-for-RAM 18:19:32 elliott: Nope. 18:19:41 Gregor: He has an 80 GiB first-gen Intel X25M SSD plus two 1 TiB drives in RAID-1. 18:19:53 elliott: So, I still have more SPACE :P 18:19:56 Gregor: Or at least, did, years ago :P 18:20:04 Fair 'nuff. 18:20:14 Gregor: More space, it's just that everything you can access goes so slowly you never get to appreciate it ;D 18:20:15 OK, how 'bout this then: Mine was expensive, but not as retarded-expensive as his must have been years ago. 18:20:23 Gregor: It was <$1,600. 18:20:29 I don't remember the exact amount. $1400? 18:20:41 So, not libc.so expensive! 18:20:50 X-D 18:21:11 Gregor: Talk me out of getting AMD BTW 18:21:26 There is literally exactly one reason I'm considering it and it's that I hate Intel :P 18:21:27 elliott: Running OS X in a VM with AMD is *cry* 18:21:38 I should find out about AMD's despicable business practices so I can hate them too. 18:21:54 Gregor: So... that's... how is that a disadvantage? 18:21:57 That lets me avoid OS X more effectively. 18:22:19 :P 18:22:32 My machine is SIMULRUNNING (<-- this is a word) Debian, OS X and Windows. 18:22:40 So I can have 2/3rds pain and suffering and 1/3 joy. 18:22:50 I should really have given bsmntbombdood a worse computer, because now the awful consumerist in me feels really bad about buying a computer worse than his. 18:22:50 3/3 pain 18:23:03 Thankfully, not being rich counteracts this! 18:23:22 I wonder if ECC RAM is less expensive these days. (Hahahahaha.) 18:23:54 More like Extra Crappy Crap RAM 18:24:37 Gregor: does access to RAM become a bottleneck when you increase the number of cores in your CPU or does it matter? 18:24:51 *not matter 18:25:02 CakeProphet: Depends. Generally yes. Depends on how NUMAlicious your CPU is too. 18:25:19 Gregor: FSVO Extra Crappy Crap equal to not broken :P 18:25:39 elliott: you should make FSVO a valid operation in @lang 18:25:52 But seriously though, I'd like to take this opportunity to laugh really hard at anyone who buys a new computer without an SSD system drive. 18:25:58 ha ha ha 18:26:28 Gregor: Ohh, there's the other reason I was considering AMD, i7s don't do ECC. 18:26:44 You have to get the vastly more expensive Xeons which need the vastly more expensive server motherboards because Intel are fucks. 18:27:32 intelllllll................................ 18:27:55 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:28:37 http://promotions.newegg.com/ASUS/111511/696x288.jpg 18:28:42 im true red 18:28:43 nes 18:29:35 elliott: help. it seems that when I click on the "learn more" button, nothing happens. 18:29:41 you have learned 18:29:41 the most 18:30:22 `? learn 18:30:24 learn? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 18:30:28 Gregor: I was going to ask why 16 gigs of RAM when you're not on Nehalem and then I felt really stupid. 18:30:35 16: Not a multiple of three? Instead a multiple of two? 18:30:37 You decide. 18:31:51 http://bytesizebio.net/index.php/2011/11/06/brainfk-while-waiting-for-a-flight/ 18:31:56 WHY ARE YOU ON /R/PROGRAMMING YOU PIECE OF FUCKING SHIT 18:31:58 UPDATE II: Following Vincent's comment, here is a fixed version of the interpreter. This time it should work with nested loops. Thanks Vincent. 18:32:00 DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE 18:32:09 IM GOING TO THROTTLE YOU TO DEATH 18:32:19 I don't know on one hand I can see how it would seem that 16 is a multiple of 3 because it is a very 3-like number, but then there is also the case that 16 is a multiple two because it lends well to create the 2-like numbers, but very few scholary sources seem to encroach upon the difficult subject. 18:32:29 NO 18:32:29 I love people who write BF interpreters without nested loops. 18:32:30 NOOO 18:32:31 THE GUY 18:32:33 KNOWS ABOUT ESOLANGS.ORG 18:32:35 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 18:32:39 They remind me of myself when I was twelve. 18:33:13 -!- tiffany has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:33:18 Heh, I like this golfed thing: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/m4c29/fun_with_brainfuck_while_waiting_for_a_flight/c2y2oxe 18:33:43 -!- tiffany has joined. 18:33:52 uh 18:33:55 why is he using format 18:33:57 http://www.shapecatcher.com/index.html Nooooooo, it doesn't do "PILE OF POO". 18:34:07 CakeProphet: Python 3, looks like. 18:34:18 does % not exist in Python 3? 18:34:27 dunno 18:34:33 it would be way better for golfing in any case. 18:34:52 🙀 18:34:55 weary cat face 18:35:28 ﺕ 18:35:28 "In block: Byzantine Musical Symbols" 18:35:29 Wow. 18:35:36 ᴞ 18:35:53 :< 18:35:54 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 18:35:55 𝆋 18:36:19 ᑂ 18:36:21 😆 18:36:23 It didn't even recognise my shark pirate. 18:36:26 :$ suddenly my money is where my mouth is. 18:36:27 ᓤ 18:36:28 ᓤ 18:36:28 ᓤ 18:36:28 ᓤ 18:36:33 best face. 18:36:46 😌 18:36:50 😒 18:36:53 😋 18:36:54 ᴞ 18:36:57 😁 18:37:00 😜 18:37:04 😏 18:37:09 😣 18:37:12 😚 18:37:14 Ѷ 18:37:15 Ѷ 18:37:15 Ѷ 18:37:15 😞 18:37:45 ᒚ 18:38:02 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:38:09 Ꙭ 18:38:15 * elliott mature. 18:38:27 ᴂ 18:38:55 ⚧ waht 18:39:06 😅 18:39:08 "MALE WITH STROKE AND MALE AND FEMALE SIGN" 18:39:14 😘 18:39:17 monqy: hi 18:39:47 `ls wisdom 18:39:49 ​? \ ais523 \ augur \ banach-tarski \ c \ cakeprophet \ elliott \ everyone \ finland \ fizzie \ flower \ friendship \ fungot \ gregor \ hackego \ haskell \ ievan \ intercal \ itidus20 \ monad \ monads \ monqy \ nooga \ oerjan \ oklopol \ qdb \ qdbformat \ sgeo \ shachaf \ u \ vorpal \ welcome \ wiki \ you 18:40:05 `learn you 18:40:07 I knew that. 18:40:11 `forget you 18:40:12 `? you 18:40:15 `? banach-tarski 18:40:15 Forget what? 18:40:17 `? you 18:40:18 ... 18:40:21 ​"Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski". 18:40:24 you? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 18:40:31 you 18:40:34 What was you? 18:40:38 `? itidus20 18:40:40 itidus20 is horny 60 year olds having cybersex in minecraft 18:40:55 `? monad 18:40:56 Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors. 18:41:08 😡 18:41:11 😖 18:41:12 `? shachaf 18:41:14 shachaf mad 18:41:18 😪 18:41:22 😏 18:41:23 elliott: we have descended into madness. 18:41:24 😎 18:41:34 if only Madoka-Kaname were here 18:41:34 😩 18:41:37 to spam lambdabot. 18:41:39 😷 18:41:40 `learn shachaf ace 18:41:42 I knew that. 18:41:43 `revert 18:41:44 Done. 18:41:46 `revert 18:41:46 😺 18:41:48 Done. 18:41:49 oh wait 18:41:50 `help 18:41:51 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 18:41:52 monqy: pls stop 18:41:54 :( 18:41:59 :( 18:42:00 `? shachaf 18:42:02 shachaf ace 18:42:06 `revert 876 18:42:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:42:08 Done. 18:42:09 `? you 18:42:11 you? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 18:42:12 `? you 18:42:14 you a haskell 18:42:22 me a haskell 18:42:34 `? shachaf 18:42:36 shachaf mad 18:42:41 :( 18:42:46 `? oklopol 18:42:48 oklopol "so i hear these blogs are getting popular, people like writing about their lives and shit. on this thing called the internet which is like a neural network only really stupid." 18:43:04 `? Phantom_Hoover 18:43:06 Phantom_Hoover? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 18:43:08 `? sgeo 18:43:09 Sgeo invented Metaplace sex. 18:43:12 `? phantom hoover 18:43:14 phantom hoover? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 18:43:20 `? vorpal 18:43:22 Vorpal is really boring. Seriously, you have no idea. 18:43:35 Vorpal follows speed limits. 18:43:35 Nothing to do with elliott, I assume. 18:43:37 laaaame. 18:43:56 `? everyone 18:43:58 Everyone in here is mad. 18:44:16 `fortune 18:44:17 `? ievan 18:44:19 Somewhat alarmed at the continued growth of the number of employees \ on the Department of Agriculture payroll in 1962, Michigan Republican Robert \ Griffin proposed an amendment to the farm bill so that "the total number of \ employees in the Department of Agriculture at no time exceeds the number of \ farmers in 18:44:31 ievan is basically http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4om1rQKPijI 18:44:31 :( 18:44:32 good poem 18:44:52 I wonder if there are IRC fortune dbs 18:44:57 IRC-friendly that is. 18:45:32 `? haskell 18:45:34 Haskell is preferred by 9 out of 10 esoteric programmers. Ask your GP today! http://learnyouahaskell.com/ 18:45:57 lol 18:46:08 -!- FireFly has quit (*.net *.split). 18:46:09 elliott, I don't think that kind of advertising is allowed here? 18:46:13 * Sgeo|web reads the Haskerl thingy 18:46:32 *Haskperl 18:46:48 -!- FireFly has joined. 18:47:16 a google search for perl compiler renders nothing is actually a legitimate perl compiler. 18:47:23 +that 18:47:42 CakeProphet: I'm pretty sure it's called Haskerl, but yes 18:48:05 oh that's an actual thing. 18:48:27 http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~partain/haskerl/partain-1.html 18:49:04 awwww yeah 18:49:11 :( 18:49:48 `learn PHP is preferred by 9 out of 10 idiots. Ask your GP today! [Website redacted] 18:49:51 I knew that. 18:50:53 any evil lies that i wrote [Website redacted] because i couldn't bother to find a website will be harshly punished. 18:51:02 Further, if an io_thing turns out to have type "[IO a]" (list of I/O 18:51:02 actions), then suitable wrapping will be inserted to deal with that 18:51:02 ("listIO io_action `thenIO` ( \ result -> ... ", for those who care). 18:51:05 Sgeo|web: this is great and terrible 18:51:28 elliott: I just read that line too... 18:51:44 and thought roughly the same thing 18:51:45 this is awful 18:52:30 monqy: don't worry, it was in the naive days of 93 18:52:31 It is an April Fools joke 18:52:33 we did not know then 18:52:37 Sgeo|web: ...oh :( 18:52:38 Sgeo|web: but 18:52:42 they literally invented do notation? 18:52:43 like 18:52:49 this is like when ben franklin was joking about dst :D 18:52:51 I guess USB 1.1 had a poorly named speed in retrospect 18:52:57 "full-speed" 18:53:06 or wait, that might be 1.0 as well 18:53:06 elliott: ah that explains why the wrapping isn't simply a monad. 18:53:31 oerjan: ? 18:53:33 ah, 93 explains a lot 18:53:38 http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~partain/haskerl.html 18:53:41 elliott: the 93 18:53:49 oerjan: well, they say it's monadic IO 18:53:57 but it's before the typeclass existed 18:54:09 Sgeo|web: wait, was do notation already proposed when this came out? 18:54:10 it must have been 18:54:20 elliott: No idea 18:54:37 elliott: surely it should be simply sequence in some monad, otherwise. 18:54:50 I wonder what they will call UBS 4.0 18:54:53 USB* 18:54:54 oerjan: um like I said, this is 93, so they knew about monadic IO but had no abstraction for it 18:54:58 no Monad typeclass, etc. 18:55:13 ""if", for example, normally has the type "Bool -> a -> a -> a"." 18:55:15 a better time 18:55:16 elliott: that's what "otherwise" means, sheesh 18:55:25 oerjan: right 18:55:59 is it bad that I think some of this stuff is a good idea? 18:56:04 yes 18:56:07 yes 18:56:07 apart from the do notation part 18:56:09 `rm wisdom/shachaf 18:56:11 No output. 18:56:17 CakeProphet: oh the polymorphic regexps are actually a well known thing 18:56:19 `run kill -9 $$ 18:56:21 Killed 18:56:26 `echo nice try 18:56:28 nice try 18:56:38 Was that a try? 18:56:46 dunno 18:56:46 was it nice? 18:56:47 elliott: what's wrong with bool->a->a->a for the type of if? 18:56:49 It should just exit the shell instance that it spawns. 18:56:51 that is the type it has, as a function 18:56:57 ais523: where did I say there was something wrong with it? 18:57:00 elliott: mainly variable interpolation and backtick stuff (though that syntax would conflict with infix functions) 18:57:01 kill -9 $$ is my usual way of exiting a shell. 18:57:04 `learn shachaf mad with destruction 18:57:07 I knew that. 18:57:10 elliott: in your answer to CakeProphet's question 18:57:12 `rm wisdom/shachaf 18:57:14 No output. 18:57:14 shachaf: Do you bind ^D to that? :-) 18:57:18 ais523: that's not "some of this stuff" 18:57:28 elliott: No -- I want ^D to behave as it does. 18:57:28 ah, OK 18:57:42 But kill -9 $$ is the easiest way I know of to exit without saving history. 18:57:42 run kill -WINCH $$ 18:57:49 `run kill -WINCH $$ 18:57:51 No output. 18:58:00 couldn't do with HackEgo having a badly-sized terminal 18:58:20 or at least, a bad belief about the size of its terminal 18:58:28 `run tput cols 18:58:30 80 18:58:37 wow, I wasn't expecting that to work… 18:58:39 `run tput rows 18:58:39 -!- derrik has joined. 18:58:40 ais523: Well, you'd want to kill -WINCH its PPID, presumably. 18:58:41 tput: unknown terminfo capability 'rows' 18:58:48 hmm 18:59:06 `tput lines 18:59:07 silly ais523 18:59:07 24 18:59:09 aha 18:59:13 I was guessing 18:59:24 and decided that my guess was wrong after the error 19:01:00 learning from errors? how quaint. 19:01:30 `run printf '\x1b[8;120;36t'; tput cols; tput rows 19:01:32 ​\x1b[8;120;36t80 \ tput: unknown terminfo capability 'rows' 19:01:36 `run printf '\x1b[8;120;36t'; tput cols; tput lines 19:01:38 ​\x1b[8;120;36t80 \ 24 19:01:39 http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~partain/haskerl/ganesh-1.html 19:01:44 oh god people taking this seriously :') 19:01:54 boring, It'd have been hilarious if I'd actually managed to resize its idea of what its temrinal was 19:01:57 "I tend to agree, Perl’s ast based internal structure is very fast. The overhead of JIT would almost certainly be a big down side as most perl programs seem to run for a very short time." 19:01:58 ais523: i don't think you're using printf right 19:02:00 HackEgo doesn't escape 19:02:01 what is this crap. 19:02:12 `run printf '%c[8;120;36t' 27; tput cols; tput lines 19:02:13 `run echo -e '\x1b[8;120;36t'; tput cols; tput lines 19:02:14 2[8;120;36t80 \ 24 19:02:19 `run echo -e '\e[8;120;36t'; tput cols; tput lines 19:02:21 ​-e \e[8;120;36t \ 80 \ 24 19:02:24 lol 19:02:26 ​-e \x1b[8;120;36t \ 80 \ 24 19:02:29 `run /bin/echo -e '\e[8;120;36t'; tput cols; tput lines 19:02:31 I don't think you're using echo right 19:02:31 ​.[8;120;36t \ 80 \ 24 19:02:35 there we go 19:02:40 but yeah, no pty 19:03:10 "I don't want to be misunderstood but I DON'T WANT to believe this. 19:03:10 I mean, programs do not normally kill patients, doctors do. So where 19:03:10 were the doctors or nurses who were supposed to keep such patients 19:03:10 under close control? Or do we nowadays have artificially intelligent 19:03:10 programs acting as doctors?" 19:03:14 THIS IS SO ADORABLE OMG 19:03:24 "Something missing in the above picture, I think. And I also detect 19:03:24 a bad smell of abuse and negligence, too. (Assuming that the last sentence 19:03:24 of Hudak's message does really reflect what happened at Yale Med School.) 19:03:24 19:03:24 By the way, I would safely guess that there are dozens of newspapers, 19:03:25 TV stations, etc. who would be interested in this story. So how come 19:03:27 they never did their job? Or did they?" 19:03:27 I think I've got the code wrong; at least, it's not working in my shell, and it used to 19:03:29 gjkdfsghksdklfg 19:03:35 ais523: try in rxvt 19:03:41 i know gnome-terminal dislikes some of that stuff 19:03:44 what's 8 meant to be 19:03:47 isn't it 2 or 3 19:03:49 it does work in gnome-term, I've done it in the past 19:04:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:04:13 -!- derrik has left. 19:04:34 ais, how many people did you kill? 19:04:39 With your bad code 19:04:41 http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~partain/haskerl/jhf-1.html 19:04:42 Bleh, he's not here 19:04:44 excessive monadery! 19:05:18 http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~partain/haskerl/wall-1.html 19:05:19 hi larry 19:06:10 wow this is the best 19:06:22 http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~partain/haskerl/dw-2.html 19:06:25 "Support for Visual Basic is not anticipated." 19:06:25 who wants to add it to the wiki 19:06:30 NOOOOOOOO 19:06:38 David Wakeling (inventor of surrealist programming) 19:07:09 oerjan: did you manage to read the annotation 19:09:24 monqy: larry -Wall is god among meermortals. 19:11:03 I have two monitors now 19:11:54 larry -Wextra 19:14:16 -!- Darth_Cliche has joined. 19:14:22 larry -funroll-loops 19:14:32 larry o2 19:14:53 larry "funroll" loops 19:15:14 I wish I had a son so I could call him that. 19:15:23 And that my surname was Loops, I suppose. 19:15:49 Phantom_Hoover: you can always get married and adopt your wife's surname. 19:16:12 You could also just change your name. 19:16:23 Also please CakeProphet, we have civil unions in this country. Phantom_Hoover is a gay vampire. 19:17:57 oerjan: did you manage to read the annotation <-- on sunday? yes. 19:20:42 mmmm biscuit syrup. 19:20:45 I feel so... southern. 19:22:32 So they're not *dwarven syrup biscuits [10]*? 19:23:06 no it's this: http://www.scanavert.com/api/picture.php?upc=00700195004325&width=150&height=150 19:23:29 -!- variable has quit (Quit: I found a 1 /dev/zero). 19:24:20 Phantom_Hoover: not referring to your barbaric limey biscuits. 19:24:38 Limes????? What are these things? 19:24:43 Are they like plump helmetss? 19:24:55 Phantom_Hoover: yes, they prevent scurvy in sailors. 19:25:12 in other words 19:25:18 they prevent scurvy sailors, argh! 19:25:37 * oerjan wants to read that [10] as that +10 thing they put in rpg tables 19:26:02 oerjan: play df with us :} 19:26:06 :DDDDd 19:26:07 :Qqqq 19:26:09 :# 19:26:18 elliott: ah so it is something equivalent there? 19:26:29 i didnt say that ;___; 19:26:40 * elliott ceries softly. 19:26:44 well it _could_ have been. 19:26:46 that was meant to be a typo of softly 19:26:47 like 19:26:49 soft lie 19:26:49 but 19:26:51 it turned out being the same 19:26:52 as the right way 19:27:00 so i 19:27:01 mistyped 19:27:03 a mistype... 19:27:10 i think i broke elliott again 19:27:15 oops 19:27:18 19:27:35 http://xlithiumx.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/395px-runny_hunny.jpg 19:27:41 notice that American biscuits are far superior. 19:27:42 hunny 19:28:03 alternatively, see: http://westofthewest.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/hardee-s-new-monster-biscuit.jpg 19:28:09 a more typical American biscuit. 19:28:18 fastest food 19:28:33 america is like going into a quaint film but then the film doesn't end 19:28:54 elliott: explain yourself 19:29:41 sigh arcanesentiment is in another lull 19:29:45 is this a metaphor for life? 19:29:59 prog21 too, but it's always in a lull 19:30:05 lul 19:30:08 well ok it had active posting throughout october 19:30:25 monqy: lull with me. 19:31:17 lulling good hobbey 19:31:25 -!- Zuu has joined. 19:32:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BiscuitsAmerican%26British.png that's a really shitty american biscuit 19:32:45 I am ashame wakapedoia 19:33:04 CakeProphet: mmmmmmm bourbons 19:33:21 elliott: is that what that obscene doggy treat is? 19:33:26 ah yes 19:33:27 it is. 19:33:27 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/6/60/20091013115300%21BiscuitsAmerican%26British.png old version, even shittier 19:33:28 no its 19:33:34 its filled with chocolate cream shit 19:33:34 its 19:33:35 great 19:33:38 wait 19:33:39 wait 19:33:40 CakeProphet 19:33:44 have you never had a digestive biscuit in your life 19:33:48 nope 19:33:51 what the fuck!!!!!!!!! 19:33:53 ginger nut??? 19:33:57 uh? 19:34:04 http://www.virginmedia.com/images/ginger_nut430x300.jpg 19:34:07 have you had one of these 19:34:09 america land of the freedom from digestive biscuits 19:34:17 CakeProphet: ANSWER FUCKER >:( 19:34:27 have you never had a digestive biscuit in your life <-- I only ever heard of them 19:34:27 elliott: oh yes I've ate a cookie before. 19:34:28 home of the too brave for ginger nut 19:34:30 whatever they are 19:34:34 CakeProphet: THATS NOT A COOKIE 19:34:37 * shachaf has never heard of digestive biscuits. 19:34:38 COOKISE HAVE CHOCOLATE CHIPS 19:34:39 Sounds horrible. 19:34:40 elliott: it is exactly a cookie. 19:34:43 NO 19:34:44 wait 19:34:45 yes... 19:34:47 CakeProphet 19:34:47 YOU DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT YOURE LOOKING AT 19:34:49 some cookies do not have chocolate chips 19:34:49 ITS GINGER FLAVOURED 19:34:49 has not ever 19:34:50 tasted 19:34:51 AND SNAPS 19:34:51 AND SHIT 19:34:55 a digestive biscuit 19:34:56 i love ginger snaps 19:34:56 yes we call those ginger snaps 19:34:58 Hmm, looks like a kind of cookie to me. 19:35:00 they're cookies. 19:35:01 elliott, they are the best thing in tea? 19:35:01 NO 19:35:02 STOP CALLING 19:35:03 EVERYTHING 19:35:03 C 19:35:03 elliott: I take it you don't like ginger? 19:35:04 OOOKIES 19:35:06 I HATE YOU!!!!!! 19:35:14 Vorpal: GINGER NUTS ARE THE GREATEST FUCKING THING NEXT TO DIGESTIVE BISCUITS 19:35:14 elliott: A "cookie" in American parlance refers to a large quantity of things, many of which you call "biscuits". 19:35:17 i love good cookies too 19:35:21 pikhq_: FUCK YOUUUU YOUR DIALECT IS WRONG!!! 19:35:23 (:[{- COOKIES! -}]) 19:35:26 > let f (x,y) = True in f undefined undefined 19:35:27 Couldn't match expected type `a -> t' 19:35:27 against inferred type `GHC.Bo... 19:35:28 elliott: Personally I don't like ginger 19:35:33 "In the United States it is a small, soft, leavened bread, somewhat similar to a scone." 19:35:34 elliott: have you had american biscuits? 19:35:35 wtf 19:35:35 Vorpal: I;M PUNCHING YOU 19:35:40 CakeProphet: IVE HAD SCONES 19:35:40 > let f (x,y) = True in f (undefined,undefined) 19:35:41 elliott: Didn't you ever watch Sesame Street? 19:35:41 True 19:35:45 elliott: not the same. 19:35:46 CakeProphet, dude, give up, you can't out-scone Britain 19:35:46 elliott: You've probably never had biscuits & gravy. :) 19:36:01 american biscuits are kind of lame 19:36:03 Gravy on digestive biscuits MMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 19:36:07 (no) 19:36:10 monqy: With gravy, though. 19:36:16 monqy 19:36:19 have you ever had a digestive biscuit 19:36:21 there are many ways to make biscuits gravy 19:36:26 the southern US is very good at it. 19:36:32 uh 19:36:36 s/gravy/good/ 19:36:37 but uh 19:36:42 graby is an acceptable synonym. 19:36:45 >_> 19:36:45 elliott maybe I have had something which is a digestive biscuit without knowing because nothing is called digestive biscuites here it's all cookies :( 19:36:45 monqy 19:36:51 we must 19:36:52 monqy: wait ill get a picture 19:36:53 save you 19:36:55 from 19:36:56 this 19:37:01 monqy: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Digestive_biscuits.jpg ok this is an ugly picture but 19:37:04 digestive biscuitless wasteland 19:37:07 monqy: they taste like warmth 19:37:07 monqy: yes they're pretty much the same thing. 19:37:09 wait 19:37:11 oh and English people are strange: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yorkshire_pudding <-- IMO this is a type of bread, not a pudding 19:37:11 http://www.webanswers.com/post-images/5/5F/7088B479-AB32-1029-81DD15954676B012.jpg 19:37:14 that's a slightly nicer picture monqy 19:37:19 monqy: you dunk them in tea and 19:37:21 they're so warm and 19:37:22 ok 19:37:23 elliott: Digestive biscuits basically aren't in the US, but if we had them we'd call them cookies. 19:37:24 monqy 19:37:26 monqy: do you have a supply of adequate tea 19:37:28 I've never had a msvitties the original 19:37:35 it's mcvities 19:37:36 I only have crappy tea sorry 19:37:40 monqy: ok but is it 19:37:44 can you stand to have a mouthful of it 19:37:48 english biscuits work with any tea 19:37:51 Is it tea, not weird herbal crap? 19:37:53 this conversation is hilarious. 19:37:57 oh yeah it has to be actual tea not 19:37:58 CakeProphet: agreed 19:37:58 pretty sure it's tea 19:37:58 green tea or whatever 19:38:02 ok good 19:38:04 monqy: what's your address 19:38:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 19:38:06 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 19:38:06 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 19:38:10 * elliott loads up amazon 19:38:19 http://www.mamas-southern-cooking.com/images/biscuits-and-gravy-01.jpg 19:38:21 mmmmmmmmmm 19:38:26 Hey, man. Green tea is actual tea. Admittedly, probably not the sort of thing you want to drink if you want to do things proper & British-like. 19:38:30 giving out my address would only end badly 19:38:32 no amazon.co.uk i dont want the chocolate ones!! they are niceb ut monqy needs _real digestives_ 19:38:38 monqy: it is ok you can tell mei n private 19:38:39 OK American biscuits look like crappy scones. 19:38:45 CakeProphet, have you had scones. 19:38:51 Phantom_Hoover: dude find me digestives on amazon.co.uk i cant 19:38:51 pikhq_: Does it originate from the tea plant? 19:38:54 they re like 19:38:55 Vorpal: Yes. 19:38:56 20 quid 19:38:56 Phantom_Hoover: scones are a US thing too. 19:38:58 for a 23712389723 pack 19:39:04 CakeProphet: ??? haha no? 19:39:09 they are similar but usually not eaten with the same things that biscits are. 19:39:10 monqy: http://www.amazon.co.uk/1StopCufflinkShop-Novelty-Digestive-Biscuit-Cufflinks/dp/B003PLO6PQ/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&qid=1320781097&sr=8-18 19:39:11 Corollary: do you rhyme 'scone' with 'cone'? 19:39:15 novelty digestive biscuit cufflinks 19:39:16 Phantom_Hoover 19:39:17 novelty digestive biscuit cufflinks 19:39:19 i 19:39:21 pikhq_: nothing else added except hot water and possibly milk? 19:39:30 elliott: no its because mysterious thing comes in mail from mysterious place and my parents wouldn't be able to deal with it.........and i wouldn't be able to tell them i gave out adres because then they'd kill me 19:39:31 Phantom_Hoover: scones don't really exist where I live. 19:39:31 GUYS NOVELTY DIGESTIVE BISCUIT CUFFLINKS WHAT??? 19:39:33 Vorpal: You don't add milk to green tea. 19:39:33 Are they actual digestive biscuits? 19:39:35 Vorpal: But, yeah. 19:39:37 HELP??? 19:39:37 the joys of not bein gan audtl 19:39:40 Phantom_Hoover: HELP? 19:39:43 Phantom_Hoover: but I've seen them in the midwest and northeast. 19:39:46 *Maybe* a small amount of sugar. 19:39:49 it's pretty much all biscuits in the south. 19:39:53 monqy: is there anywhere ican dliver things that you canp ick them up (in secret) 19:39:54 pikhq_: right, then it is a type of tea. And I wouldn't know if you use milk with it or not, I don't like any tea really 19:40:05 not that i know of..... 19:40:12 monqy, wait we can use that strike bomber we were going to kill you with (long story) and drop digestive biscuits instead? 19:40:25 good idea 19:40:38 ok monqy 19:40:40 Do you mind the taste of high explosive? 19:40:42 can we meet up in california 19:40:46 i will bring digestives 19:40:49 and proper eta 19:40:50 tea 19:41:09 Phantom_Hoover: http://www.amazon.co.uk/McVities-Digestive-Biscuits-400g-Pack/dp/B005R0LO5S/ref=sr_1_34?ie=UTF8&qid=1320781212&sr=8-34 20 POUNDS!!!! 19:41:18 wait 19:41:23 they sell digestives in america 19:41:25 i know they do because 19:41:29 im sure like on reddit theres been an expat saying 19:41:31 elliott: Whoa, man, I thought biscuits had to be hard. 19:41:34 oh you just have to go blah and they have all the BISCUITS!!! 19:41:37 Apparently there are soft biscuits. 19:41:45 monqy: find the biscuits 19:41:50 shachaf, none of us knew this? 19:41:54 hmmmmmmmmm, 19:41:55 elliott: Well, yes, if you know where to look you can find just about any damned food item in the US. 19:42:31 i dont think you guys understand 19:42:33 what you're missing out on 19:42:36 pikhq_: you've had digestives right 19:42:38 Oi, pikhq_, do you rhyme 'scone' and 'cone'? 19:42:38 *Especially* if you're in, say, New York. 19:42:40 elliott: No. 19:42:40 funnily enough I don't think either of the Swedish words "kaka" and "kex" translates directly to either the British or the American biscuit/cookie concepts 19:42:43 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. 19:42:44 WHAT 19:42:47 pikhq_: FIX IT??? 19:42:57 pikhq_, BASTARD SCUM BASTARD BASTARD 19:43:06 Vorpal: Describe? 19:43:09 Phantom_Hoover: http://swervechurch.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/6b7d841b6f6f35e6_m.jpg DO YOU GUYS DO THIS TO YOUR SCONES? 19:43:12 Phantom_Hoover: I don't speak Scots. :P 19:43:12 Phantom_Hoover: I found a summary of the French. 19:43:14 IT RHYMES WITH 'CON' 19:43:15 IT 19:43:17 ALWAYS 19:43:18 Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscuit_rose_de_Reims "The biscuit is very hard. It is hence customary to dip the biscuit in champagne or red wine to soften it." 19:43:19 RHYMES 19:43:19 WITH 19:43:22 'CON' 19:43:29 pikhq_: well, I wouldn't even know what to classify those "digestive biscuits" as in Swedish terminology. 19:43:42 Phantom_Hoover: Ah nay spik braid scots 19:43:44 Vorpal: you know those biscuits they sell in the swedish section of ikea? those are nice guys 19:43:49 pikhq_: definitely not kaka. And kex need to be crisp 19:43:52 CakeProphet, OH GOD WHAT ARE THEY DOING TO THAT SCONE 19:43:53 pikhq_, 19:43:55 you 19:43:56 do 19:43:57 Vorpal: they're thin and sort of star shaped but rounded? 19:43:59 not understand 19:44:01 Vorpal: and gingerbready 19:44:01 elliott: they don't sell food in IKEAs in Sweden 19:44:04 those are nice mm 19:44:05 poor scone 19:44:05 Phantom_Hoover: making it amazing 19:44:06 well 19:44:11 Vorpal: tey're like 19:44:12 ANNA 19:44:12 or 19:44:14 ANNKA 19:44:16 or something like that 19:44:16 uh 19:44:18 Phantom_Hoover: That's a McDonalds McBiscuit. They taste worse than they look. 19:44:21 elliott: ANKA? 19:44:23 that means duck 19:44:24 AEWFAWEGUWAGHE 19:44:30 Vorpal: maybe it's made from duck 19:44:31 pikhq_: it is? 19:44:31 mcbiscuit 19:44:34 good name 19:44:37 elliott: doubtful 19:44:47 CakeProphet: http://swervechurch.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/6b7d841b6f6f35e6_m.jpg sure is. 19:44:47 oh, yes it is. 19:44:47 pikhq_, are these... common? 19:44:49 Vorpal: i will find them on 19:44:51 Vorpal: the ikea site 19:44:58 elliott: but I don't know any Swedish brand with a name like that 19:45:01 but sure, do that 19:45:05 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Tea_and_scones.jpg 19:45:10 Phantom_Hoover: I think McDonalds is the only place that carries them. 19:45:11 pikhq_: where do you live? 19:45:18 CakeProphet: Colorado, US 19:45:18 Vorpal: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/90124690/ i think this is the same thing?? but different packaging and stuff 19:45:19 I will soothe my eyes with scones that have not been mutilated. 19:45:29 Phantom_Hoover: But, McDonalds is exceptionally common. 19:45:34 elliott: that /is/ gingerbread 19:45:35 pikhq_: in Colorado you can find sausage, egg, and cheese biscuits that are not from a fast food chain, yes? 19:45:37 pikhq_, there is no other Colorado to speak of. 19:45:38 do other fast food places carry mcbiscuitalikes 19:45:42 elliott: pepparkakor 19:45:43 CakeProphet: Never seen one. 19:45:46 i'm no expert on fast food 19:45:48 o_o 19:45:49 Phantom_Hoover: True, true. 19:46:00 elliott: anyway, how do you do gingerbread for xmas over there? 19:46:03 pikhq_: oh, well, in the south that's just a thing we do to biscuits, apparently. 19:46:04 Vorpal: whatever they are they're delicious, there's another one with almonds i think? 19:46:06 Phantom_Hoover: But I tend to not assume people outside the US don't memorise a list of states. 19:46:11 CakeProphet: Ah. 19:46:19 elliott: possible, there are many variants of the basic recipe 19:46:33 Erm, s/don't// 19:46:33 pikhq_, I think if you mentioned a state most people here would recognise it as one, by and large. 19:46:35 elliott: literally the name translates to "pepper cookies/biscuits/whatever" 19:46:36 I will soothe my eyes with scones that have not been mutilated. 19:46:38 some gingerbread is good. other gingerbread is awful. 19:46:41 Phantom_Hoover: Feh. 19:46:42 Phantom_Hoover: Let's be honest though, scones aren't actually all that good. 19:46:47 I 19:46:48 elliott: but I know at least one recipe that have no pepper 19:46:51 XD 19:46:52 Phantom_Hoover: I mean yes they're good. 19:46:54 I will not talk to you ever again. 19:46:58 Phantom_Hoover: But they're so easy to fuck up! 19:47:00 Yes 19:47:02 Phantom_Hoover: You *know* you want biscuits & gravy. 19:47:12 Gravy: it is delicious. 19:47:12 Phantom_Hoover: It's like, you keep reaching for this unattainable state of perfect scone. 19:47:17 But all you get are Failed Scones. 19:47:20 elliott: anyway, how do you do gingerbread for xmas over there? 19:47:22 The average sconesperience is not good. 19:47:26 elliott: not like the IKEA ones? 19:47:27 elliott, no, you are just a terrible sconesmith. 19:47:29 Vorpal: Not in that shape. 19:47:34 * Phantom_Hoover → food (non-scone). 19:47:37 Phantom_Hoover: OK show me a good scone. 19:47:45 Phantom_Hoover: I will drive to Edinburgh. 19:48:01 elliott: well, there are many shapes over here. Xmas trees. People (which sounds strange when you think about it), hearts. Circles. 19:48:04 and so on 19:48:14 I think the heart shape is probably most common 19:48:49 haert shape? 19:49:00 I said heart 19:49:00 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Gingerbread_house_8.jpg challenge: eat without vomiting 19:49:05 ♥, I assume. 19:49:14 pikhq_: yes, what else? 19:49:14 Ikea to drop famous Swedish food brands 19:49:14 15 October 2011 | news Newsdesk 19:49:14 Swedish furnishing giant Ikea is undergoing a change and will soon rid their food shelves of anything not bearing it’s name. 19:49:14 People outside of Sweden craving Swedish-brand eats have made a habit of frequenting Ikea stores around the world in order to find such things as Cloetta chocolate, Abba herring, Kalle's caviar spread, and cookies by Göteborgskex. 19:49:15 Mmmm, gingerbread. 19:49:16 But soon, those looking for a taste of Sweden will instead have to settle for Ikea-branded approximations following a decision by the company to move to own-branded foods. 19:49:19 OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 19:49:21 OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 19:49:23 OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 19:49:25 OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 19:49:26 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Gingerbread_house_8.jpg challenge: eat without vomiting <-- what? It looks delicious 19:49:39 elliott: though maybe a bit at a time 19:49:42 Vorpal: Good luck with the parts that are basically thick raw sugar :P 19:49:56 elliott: well, I wouldn't eat it all in one meal of course 19:49:56 it looks too sugary for me 19:50:00 elliott: Probably not that bad in the US, though. 19:50:06 elliott: anyway I like sugar :P 19:50:13 hopefully that gingerbread isg ood gingrebread and not bad gingerbread 19:50:13 elliott: please don't mention anna anka in polite company 19:50:17 elliott: I doubt it would be healthy though 19:50:18 I mean, jesus, I can find fucking lutefisk in the US, I'd imagine it wouldn't be hard to find Swedish foods. 19:50:22 the only gingerbread houses i've had were bad gingerbread 19:50:24 oerjan: sounds like a nursery rhyme 19:50:37 monqy: have you gotten a digestive biscuit yet 19:50:39 pikhq_: lutefisk is Norwegian when spelled like that at least. 19:50:40 :( 19:50:44 Phantom_Hoover: What are your opinions on rich teas. 19:50:47 the Swedish spelling is lutfisk. 19:51:00 pikhq_: BTW get a fucking digestive and dunk it into some tea and eat it. 19:51:01 I don't know anyone under the age of 70 that eats lutfisl 19:51:05 lutfisk* 19:51:17 `quote rotting sea life 19:51:19 Vorpal: Yes, I'm aware. Still, if I can find *lutefisk*, I'd imagine it's not hard to find anything Scandinavian. :) 19:51:19 100) think of all the starving kids in china who don't have rotting sea life to eat 19:51:22 http://i-cdn.apartmenttherapy.com/uimages/kitchen/2011_03_20-ShrimpGrits2.jpg oh my god this looks amazing. 19:51:30 pikhq_: hm. Surströmming? 19:51:31 CakeProphet: ;__; 19:51:34 america is devil 19:51:35 country 19:51:43 pikhq_: if the answer is yes, then I'm scared. 19:51:50 it should never have been exported 19:51:51 I don't think most americans eat grits actually. 19:52:17 Vorpal: Might have to make a trip of it, but I have no doubt I could find it. 19:52:21 oh my god 19:52:24 ikea published a cookbook 19:52:25 and 19:52:26 http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/ikea-cook.png 19:52:32 (found when googling for ikea biscuits) 19:52:37 look at that butter pyramid oh my god 19:53:04 http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/orange-ikea.png :DDDD 19:53:09 pikhq_: btw I suspect that in Sweden, lutfisk will be pretty much gone in 30-40 years from mainstream shops. 19:53:33 elliott: mmmmm. I too am a cocaine afficionado 19:53:39 It's still fairly commonly consumed in rural areas of Minnesotta. 19:53:39 look at that butter pyramid oh my god <-- sure that is butter? 19:53:45 http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/semlor-ikea.png "recipe contains semen" 19:53:50 Vorpal: yes but 19:53:52 Vorpal: look at the tiny eggs omg 19:53:57 it is the best way to list ingredients ever 19:53:58 elliott: I thought it was white chocolate... 19:54:13 Vorpal: nah, that's butter 19:54:15 i'm sure 19:54:17 elliott: semen and coke: a hookers best griends. 19:54:24 elliott: wait what are the white mountains to the left in the first picture then 19:54:25 Vorpal: it's gingerbread cookies apparentl 19:54:26 y 19:54:31 and icing sugar? 19:54:35 oh I see 19:54:44 not sure where the ginger is there. 19:54:47 oh it's the 19:54:48 |> 19:54:49 triangle 19:54:51 Hmm. Seems it's actually really non-trivial to find surströmming in the US. 19:54:52 elliott: they do the ingredient lists like that in the book? 19:54:56 yep! 19:54:59 "It is a 140 page coffee-table recipe book, containing 30 classic Swedish baking recipes--everything from small biscuits to large cakes. For each recipe, there are two images: one of the ingredients and one of the finished item." 19:55:15 i hoped that meant it had no instructions 19:55:17 but i guess it dose 19:55:18 does 19:55:18 elliott: so where is the scale for figuring out how to calculate the amount from the pictures 19:55:19 It's a crapshoot to see if it gets past customs; it'll either go through or get turned down for being rotten. 19:55:35 Vorpal: swedes may be a little unfamiliar with this idea. but it's called approximation 19:55:48 elliott: I know about it, I just don't like it 19:56:26 elliott: besides calculating the area of the diagonal line in http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/orange-ikea.png seems non-trivial to me. And unlike the eggs in the first there is no known object to compare against 19:56:28 "[...] designed perhaps for the tradition of "dunking" in cups of tea; hence preventing the collapse of the biscuit and ruining of the beverage." 19:56:45 Vorpal: that's because you're not meant to calculate it 19:57:01 pikhq_: heh 19:57:04 btw 19:57:09 CakeProphet: pikhq_: monqy: apologise for oreos 19:57:13 Vorpal: the three sticks of butter probably is a good reference point. 19:57:16 elliott: never. 19:57:21 oreos are so bad 19:57:22 elliott: oh there is a separate ingredient list? 19:57:26 because 19:57:33 Vorpal: no, you're meant to approximate using intuition 19:57:36 elliott: they're not my favorite, no. 19:57:38 CakeProphet: you know how they're meant to be chocolate flavoured 19:57:38 like 19:57:40 the black bits 19:57:42 are meant to taste like chocolate 19:57:43 well 19:57:46 break one off sometime 19:57:48 and chew on it 19:57:49 oreos......................................................... 19:57:50 and think about the taste 19:57:51 and tell me honestly 19:57:54 that it tastes like chocolate 19:57:55 it doesn't 19:57:58 you know what it tastes like? 19:58:01 blackness + sugar 19:58:04 CakeProphet: wait what? The only sticks of butter I know of are 1-kg ones. 19:58:06 dear america 19:58:07 chocolate 19:58:10 does not taste like blackness 19:58:14 Somebody find me an image macro with Shatner going "NYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!" and Nyan cat. 19:58:15 some cookies are good, but oreos are not them 19:58:20 CakeProphet: 3 kg butter? Come on 19:58:32 monqy: oreos COULD have been good 19:58:40 monqy: if the biscuit part actually tasted like chocolate 19:58:42 monqy: but you know what 19:58:43 Wait, oreos are supposed to be chocolate? 19:58:45 monqy: those already exists 19:58:46 are those not sticks of butter in http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/orange-ikea.png ? 19:58:47 THEY'RE CALLED BOURBONS 19:58:51 recipes use a lot of butter, sir. 19:58:58 SO BASICALLY FUCK AMERICA??? 19:58:59 Gregor: yes. 19:59:11 Well, as we all know, the USA pretty much sucks at chocolate. 19:59:16 Gregor: at least, if they're not intending to, they're quite obviously TRYING to emulate chocolate 19:59:19 We're a nation that seriously believes that Hershey's is good. 19:59:33 i've never had hershey's 19:59:35 this makes me quite happy 19:59:36 btw 19:59:37 did you know 19:59:40 cadburys products in the us 19:59:42 CakeProphet: sure, then look at the scale of the whole thing. That diagonal bar is like 80 cm from end to end... 19:59:44 are made completely different to in the uk 19:59:46 they're poisoning your minds 19:59:50 by making you think cadburys sucks 19:59:51 dear god it doesn't 19:59:53 come home to us 19:59:55 we will show you chocolate 19:59:57 it is so good 19:59:57 elliott: Yup, but luckily, Cadbury's is rare here. 20:00:00 CakeProphet: that will generate a huge amount of food 20:00:06 elliott: I've had chocolate in the UK ... also had it in Paris so nya :P 20:00:16 Gregor: have you tasted real uk cadburys because 20:00:17 it's so good 20:00:25 oh man this reminds me of that daily mail article i found 20:00:29 it literally compared Milka chocolate to hitler 20:00:33 i swear to god 20:00:37 elliott: I have. 20:00:37 It's not that the US sucks at chocolate, we suck at food regulation. 20:00:45 elliott: But I also made the mistake of trying Turkish Delight. 20:00:46 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1275526/Cadbury-owner-plugs-inferior-Milka-bar-chocolate-lovers-say-Krafty-sideline-Dairy-Milk.html 20:00:46 HERE IT IS 20:00:48 they literally say 20:00:51 that the nazis had milka 20:00:55 read it 20:00:55 elliott: I wonder how anyone could think that earwax flavor in chocolate is good. 20:00:56 you will be 20:00:57 so amazed 20:01:04 Gregor: Turkish Delight is, uh, yeah. 20:01:04 Our "chocolate" is generally made to the legal standard for what "chocolate" is. 20:01:05 Back. 20:01:15 Phantom_Hoover: Do you remember that Daily Mail article. 20:01:18 Phantom_Hoover: That I linked. 20:01:21 Phantom_Hoover: That compared Milka to Nazism. 20:01:31 Phantom_Hoover: What are your opinions on rich teas. 20:01:34 Eugh. 20:01:37 elliott, no. 20:01:48 "THE chocolate snobs would have you believe that Dairy Milik is cheap, bland and artificial, lacking depth and complexity. Waxy chocolate for the masses, they sneer, while nibbling on some ghastly lavender-infused, organic creation." 20:01:48 http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/05/08/article-1275526-097A1C72000005DC-886_468x681.jpg 20:01:49 ACTUAL 20:01:49 FUCKING 20:01:50 QUOTE 20:01:51 DIRECT 20:01:51 FUCKING 20:01:53 QUOTE 20:02:16 "Dull and insipid, like Berne on a wet night" GOD 20:02:24 Of course, milk chocolate is terrible. 20:02:29 And people who like milk chocolate should feel bad. 20:02:36 Gregor: have you tasted real uk cadburys because <-- the only real chocolate is from continental Europe IMO 20:02:38 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:02:45 mostly French or Belgian 20:02:58 "The chocolate was created in 1901 by Swiss chocolate company Suchard. Both The Kaiser’s and Hitler’s troops took Milka chocolate to war. 20:02:58 Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1275526/Cadbury-owner-plugs-inferior-Milka-bar-chocolate-lovers-say-Krafty-sideline-Dairy-Milk.html#ixzz1d97FjOnQ" 20:03:00 i repeat 20:03:01 ACTUAL QUOTE 20:03:03 Vorpal, yes, but your opinions are universally head-meltingly Vorpid so we all ignore them. 20:03:04 apart from that tynt bullshit 20:03:13 sure, Switzerland is okay too 20:03:23 Gregor: US milk chocolate is only 10% cocoa, and is generally made from milk that's gone a little bit bad. 20:03:28 Phantom_Hoover: what about 100% pure Valrona? 20:03:33 pikhq_: I'm not referring to US any kind of chocolate. 20:03:39 pikhq_: US chocolate isn't chocolate, it's a joke. 20:03:40 err spelling 20:03:46 Valrhona 20:03:48 pikhq_: But even legit milk chocolate is terrible. 20:03:51 "Jones’s paper [about classes over type constructors] appeared in 1993, the same year that monads became popular for I/O (Section 7). " 20:03:52 EU milk chocolate is 25% cocoa, and can't pull that shit. 20:04:06 Phantom_Hoover: Anyway I quite like Rich Teas but the context has to be right. 20:04:07 The stuff in [] was my edit 20:04:14 Phantom_Hoover: They really rely on a high-quality, fresh biscuit and a good tea. 20:04:21 No, they don't. 20:04:31 They do. You're just a bad richteasmith. 20:04:55 They're made of loosely-caked crumbs which disintegrate when held in tea for more than a fraction of a second, and, unlike digestives, they are bland and joyless when eaten alone. 20:05:23 Phantom_Hoover: Damn, Scots must get really bad rich teas. They're quite structurally sound over here. 20:05:25 But yes, digestives are better. 20:05:41 pikhq_: I prefer less milk in my chocolate. Try proper French chocolate some time. Tends to be expensive though 20:05:44 im food envy 20:05:47 Taneb: Join in the biscuit discussion! 20:05:56 monqy: Come to England. We will accept you. 20:06:06 maybe when i can 20:06:13 Come to Scotland, we have haggis. 20:06:14 but for a few years at least i cannot 20:06:24 monqy: Sneak. 20:06:36 sneak across the atlantic. 20:06:49 Vorpal: I have, actually. 20:06:57 Jesus fuck that was good. 20:07:04 tiptoe across the atlantic 20:07:06 Honestly, milk chocolate is nice. 20:07:15 Only joyless people, or those who haven't actually had good milk chocolate, claim otherwise. 20:07:21 elliott: US milk "chocolate" is shitty. 20:07:23 Nobody's saying it isn't except Gregor, and FFS he's anosmic. 20:07:28 Phantom_Hoover: So is Vorpal. 20:07:33 But he doesn't count as a person. 20:07:55 maybe i have had good chocolate but i cannot recall 20:07:57 It's made with *spoiled milk* for goodness sake. 20:08:00 No, Vorpal is wittering on about what specific type of milk chocolate he likes. 20:08:01 elliott: sure milk chocolate can be okay. But compare it to dark chocolate... 20:08:02 monqy: come to the south. we have good food. 20:08:03 pikhq_: actually I'm going to make a cup of hot chocolate now, From 100% pure Valrhona. I will however add just a tiny bit of sugar to that. 20:08:06 Maaan libcurl is way too big. 20:08:07 CakeProphet: no never 20:08:14 Phantom_Hoover: No, he's talking about the ~best~ dark chocolate. 20:08:18 pikhq_, so your chocolate is more cheesy than your cheese? 20:08:19 one thing i never want to do is go to the southe 20:08:19 Phantom_Hoover: no 20:08:25 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. 20:08:26 Vorpal: Milk chocolate is more enjoyable than 99% of dark chocolate and that's that. 20:08:34 elliott: not at all. 20:08:36 monqy, you can go south from California? 20:08:40 Phantom_Hoover: cheese is typically made from extremely fresh milk.... 20:08:41 >_> 20:08:42 Vorpal: See exception (a) to my rule. 20:08:46 elliott: tastes just differ. I guess you don't have a grown up taste yet. 20:08:48 pikhq_, enlighten CakeProphet. 20:08:51 i don't want to go to mexico either 20:08:59 is mexico good? 20:08:59 Vorpal: No, you're just a member of "joyless people". 20:09:08 CakeProphet: Cheese is either coagulated milk or coagulated, carefully rotten milk. 20:09:16 no 20:09:18 it's not rotten 20:09:19 at all. 20:09:23 (Re milk chocolate) Mind you I also hate milk :P 20:09:23 coagulated, yes. soured, yes. 20:09:29 but the milk is fresh when all of this happens. 20:09:36 some cheese is good. other cheese is bad. 20:09:41 - monqy 20:09:46 Allowed to have bacteria and fungi consume it and release waste products, yes. 20:09:56 This is a process we generally call "rotting". 20:09:58 All cheese is bad. Other cheese is worse. - Gregor 20:10:23 pikhq_: it's similar sure, but with rotting there isn't any control over what kinds of bacteria 20:10:34 Gregor is bad. - Gregor 20:10:49 pikhq_, it was a jibe at American cheese food product, not a discussion on the manufacture of cheese, actually. 20:10:55 aaaaaah -aaaaaaaah 20:10:55 Milk chocolate fnarfs quite horrible. 20:11:04 gregor smells - gregor's mother 20:11:08 Gregor: You fnarf horrible. 20:11:27 Phantom_Hoover: Oh, right. 20:11:41 I'm sure I would fnarf just fine if prepared properly. 20:11:54 american cheese is awful 20:12:09 Calling it 'cheese' demeans cheese. 20:12:12 yep 20:12:23 'Cheesoid' is perhaps sufficient. 20:12:30 Choid. 20:12:31 hey guys have you ever had aerosol cheese? I can't recall if I ever have 20:12:37 No. 20:12:38 CakeProphet: American cheese is a "wonderful" thing. It consists of a mixture of milk, whey, milkfat, milk protein concentrate, whey protein concentrate, salt, and an emulsifier. 20:12:46 -!- Gregor has set topic: Official support channel for Web o' Flies | Also official channel of Velveeta™ | Velveeta™: Why cheese, when you can Velveeta!® | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 20:12:53 Gregor: You removed the assignments. 20:13:00 elliott: These things happen. 20:13:12 Gregor: atehwa will be sad. 20:13:24 CakeProphet: American cheese food product is even more amazing: it can contain 0% milk! 20:13:53 Ah, yes, and it's commonly *extruded* into individual slices. 20:14:00 Also, it's available in *aerosol cans*. 20:14:16 America, Land of the Brave, Land of the Free, and Land of Crappy Cheese. 20:14:19 https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:Easy_cheese2.jpg I shit you not. 20:14:39 pikhq_: I'm aware of such concoctions. 20:14:40 Yes, it even has the audacity to claim to be real cheese. 20:15:10 pikhq_, no it doesn't, it states quite clearly that it's a pressurised cheese snack. 20:15:17 pikhq_: To be fair, it's not actually aerosol in it :P 20:15:20 "Picture taken by myself in my office, to help show a better picture of Easy Cheese." 20:15:31 provolone ftw 20:15:32 Phantom_Hoover: It then has a thing there that says "REAL Kraft™ CHEESE" 20:15:45 they should call it Easy "Cheese" 20:15:49 just scare-quote every fake product 20:15:51 *Kraft* cheese. 20:15:55 eventually there'll be like 20:15:57 "Kraft" Cheese 20:16:00 real cheese from fake kraft! 20:16:02 Not *cheese* cheese. 20:16:25 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:16:27 that the nazis had milka <-- well they obviously needed something to eat with their fanta 20:16:45 * ais523 continues to boggle at KDE programs loading faster than Gnome programs nowadays 20:16:50 hm, would it be possible to put real cheese into a good spray? 20:16:57 So, Wonder Bread, Spam and Easy Cheese: Best sandwich? 20:17:02 monqy: No :P 20:17:03 not that spray is a good idea at all 20:17:09 Gregor: Oh god. 20:17:16 (I'm using Gnome 2's shell, so I'd assume that Gnome's libraries would be hotter in cache) 20:17:21 monqy, maybe if you used cottage cheese or something? 20:17:30 Phantom_Hoover: BTW do you have any Bread Recommendations, I feel like the quality of bread in general has gone down in recent years? 20:17:47 I just eats bread when I gets bread. 20:17:49 elliott: I don't really, I'm having severe problem finding breads I like 20:18:04 elliott: I recommend cake. 20:18:04 I typically prefer rolls to loaves 20:18:04 lol@"I just eats bread when I gets bread" 20:18:05 And people who like milk chocolate should feel bad. <-- THAT'S IT YOU'RE AT WAR WITH NORWAY NOW 20:18:19 ais523: Ditto. 20:18:37 oerjan, perpetually ten minutes in the past. 20:18:41 I prefer rice to bread (because it is an alternative) 20:19:04 elliott: because I find it hard to find a brand of loaf I'm OK with 20:19:14 typically I don't mind sliced brown bread so much, whatever the manufacturer 20:19:33 (the really cheap own-brand stuff tastes OK for me for the purposes for which I mostly use bread, although it's not so good for sandwiches) 20:19:55 solution, just use fried chicken breasts as your bread. 20:20:11 The fresh, unsliced rolls you can get from $supermarket_bakery are pretty good, but make for lousy toast. 20:20:16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Down_(sandwich) 20:20:34 Praise be to America! 20:20:40 use doughnuts as bread 20:21:13 CakeProphet: What does that thing actually taste like. 20:21:19 elliott: like I know. 20:21:25 I want to hate it, but... it's chicken and bacon... 20:21:25 "so much 100 percent premium chicken, we didn't have room for a bun." 20:21:27 elliott: I know of noöne brave enough to try :P 20:21:32 I mean I can kind of imagine what it tastes like. 20:21:39 elliott: it's kfc chicken 20:21:41 elliott: i.e. gross 20:21:57 strangely, I ate some just a few minutes ago, but it wasn't from KFC 20:21:57 monqy: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Luther_Burger 20:22:01 but from $generic_fish_and_chip_shop 20:22:03 pikhq_: yes that 20:22:23 monqy: KFC are the best common non-fish-and-chips fast food outlet I know of, but ISTR their fillets are pretty gross, so eh 20:22:32 pikhq_: Wh... 20:22:39 maybe british kfc is better than american kfc 20:23:07 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_Attack_Grill 20:23:17 beats Luther Burger 20:23:27 "The establishment is a hospital theme restaurant: waitresses ("nurses") take orders ("prescriptions") from the customers ("patients"). A tag is wrapped on the patient's wrist showing which foods they order and a "doctor" examines the "patients" with a stethoscope. The menu includes "Single", "Double", "Triple", and "Quadruple Bypass" hamburgers" 20:23:29 elliott: hmm, actually my favourite common fast food chain is Burger King 20:23:35 elliott: Remember: this is a country that has such a thing as "deep fried butter". 20:23:48 All cheese is bad. Other cheese is worse. - Gregor <-- really? Cheese in general is awesome, though there might be specific variants of cheese that I'm not personally a fan of. 20:23:50 ais523: I don't actually have any experience with Burger King so that may be 20:23:53 as an aside, I went to a McDonalds in Canada once, and it was actually mindbogglingly superior to the version they had in the UK 20:23:55 * elliott is no fast food expert. 20:24:05 Vorpal: I don't like any dairy products. 20:24:05 I can see why North Americans hate UK fast food chains that much 20:24:06 Vorpal: Cheese may taste good, but it seems to fnarf terrible. 20:24:10 There's British KFC? Kent Fried Chicken? 20:24:18 ais523: McDonalds in Canada is, near I can tell, I totally unrelated chain to McDonalds everywhere else. 20:24:18 Kent Fried Chicken :D 20:24:23 monqy: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Luther_Burger <-- the crap?! 20:24:27 s/, I totally/, a totally/ 20:24:29 Gregor: hmm 20:24:31 `addquote There's British KFC? Kent Fried Chicken? 20:24:33 pikhq_: fnarf? 20:24:33 713) There's British KFC? Kent Fried Chicken? 20:24:35 pikhq_: what? 20:24:36 they had pretty much the same menu items as in the UK 20:24:39 they just meant different things 20:24:40 Vorpal: Gregor's sense. 20:24:51 Vorpal: Gregor doesn't have a sense of taste, he has a sense of fnarf. 20:25:02 OKAAAY 20:25:05 BTW, what is actually in Kent, I am not entirely sure it exists. 20:25:07 Vorpal: Gregor is anosmic. 20:25:08 gregor "tasteless" richards 20:25:10 ais523: From what I understand, McDonalds is pretty much *identical* world-wide. Except apparently Canada? 20:25:14 SORRY HYPOSMIC OR W/E 20:25:23 pikhq_: I thought Japanese McDonalds was wildly different. 20:25:34 McDonald's isn't anywhere near identical worldwide. 20:25:39 They're very adaptive, actually. 20:25:48 They have a few staples that are the same everywhere, but that's it. 20:25:49 http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_vUALNnFd_tE/Sj8-aWMGzGI/AAAAAAAAAUk/l6SKDtZ-kH8/s320/bypassburger.jpg 20:25:52 for reference 20:25:55 elliott: Japanese McDonalds mostly just has racist marketing. 20:25:58 pikhq_: if I eat hamburger in Sweden I do it at Max: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Max_Hamburgers 20:26:01 I suppose in Canada and Australia it's QFC, Quebec Fried Chicken or Queensland Fried Chicken respectively 20:26:07 pikhq_, racist to whom? 20:26:10 pikhq_: I thought they had, like, really good beef or something. Or at least I've heard that. 20:26:11 Phantom_Hoover: Cows. 20:26:16 Phantom_Hoover: Caucasians. 20:26:18 pikhq_ (and other Americans who care): the UK version of McDonalds works pretty much via taking the basic ingredients of a McDonalds meal, submerging them in oil and then serving the result 20:26:22 Phantom_Hoover: Same thing. 20:26:28 well, apart from things like lettuce, which are just served raw 20:26:30 Cowcasians. 20:26:38 ais523: Sounds utterly authentic to US McDonalds. 20:26:39 ais523: They could optimise that. Oil lettuce. 20:26:49 double oil 20:26:50 the chips/fries end up incredibly bland as a result, and they add vast amounts of salt to cover this up 20:26:56 oerjan, perpetually ten minutes in the past. <-- LIES 20:27:06 ais523: To be fair, the submerge-in-oil-and-serve-the-result method can sometimes be effective, cf. doughnuts. 20:27:14 oerjan, please tell me you waited ten minutes until saying that. 20:27:17 elliott: or the typical fish and chip shop 20:27:24 ais523: Indeed. 20:27:26 ais523: Perfectly authentic! 20:27:30 I'm not complaining about that, so much as that they don't do anything to the ingredients beforehand 20:27:42 My incredibly slow, inefficient, and badly written program is running 20:27:43 pikhq_ (and other Americans who care): the UK version of McDonalds works pretty much via taking the basic ingredients of a McDonalds meal, submerging them in oil and then serving the result // ais523: I thought this was the UK's version of all cooking? 20:27:56 Gregor: 'Cept curry. 20:27:59 Note to future civilisations: Yes, this is really what the 21st century is like. 20:28:02 Gregor: oddly, no 20:28:08 Gregor: That isn't even in line with the stereotypes. 20:28:10 future envy 20:28:10 future envy 20:28:20 Also, the stereotype is boiling, not frying. :) 20:28:21 Gregor: You're meant to think we exclusively eat ridiculously bland, quaint stuff. 20:28:26 There's no oil involved in that :P 20:28:34 Boil it until it the flavor's leached out! 20:28:37 pikhq_: Curry is stolen :P 20:28:40 elliott: Fish and chips. 20:28:48 monqy, why are you so envious of the future? 20:28:48 oil tea 20:28:49 elliott: It's just that you can do even deep fried blandly. 20:28:51 Gregor: actually, most good UK food works via stealing it from someone else, then modifying it into something entirely different 20:28:54 Gregor: Meh, curry got stolen by everyone. 20:28:59 oerjan, please tell me you waited ten minutes until saying that. <-- more like 9 minutes 20:29:02 pikhq_: 'struth, even I stole it :P 20:29:04 Gregor: Sounds like you've never had fish and chips!!!!!!! 20:29:06 the UK version of curry is unlike that in India 20:29:19 elliott: I don't like fish either 8-D 20:29:21 to the extent that imported Indian chefs can't cook it very well without special training 20:29:23 I like Madras curry 20:29:30 elliott: But I've had chicken and chips at a fish and chips place in the UK :P 20:29:31 maybe future isn't bad 20:29:33 but it most likely is 20:29:35 Curry is original, it didn't even really exist in India IIRC, it's just meant to taste vaguely Indian 20:29:38 future pity 20:29:42 Gregor: You probably hate vinegar or something like that because you're not human. 20:29:59 Besides, it's not like the UK is unique in having done strange things to curry. 20:30:01 Darth_Cliche: Well, the term "curry" refers to a billion things. 20:30:05 elliott: I like vinegar! 20:30:07 Gregor: hmm, last Friday I broke the pattern, but previously, I'd been trying a large number of fast food outlets within walking distance of my route home 20:30:10 Like, every Asian country has their own rendition of it by now. 20:30:15 and ordering a chicken burger at each of them, to compare 20:30:17 Gregor, please consider that being a culinary nazi is rather pointless when one judges food on an entirely different basis to normal people. 20:30:19 Gregor: Then fish and chip chips are pretty much right up your alley? :P 20:30:23 Gregor: it basically means throwing a bunch of random spices together, right? 20:30:27 no cheese because I don't eat cheese, plus chips were appropriate 20:30:33 They're pretty much designed as a host for ridiculous amounts of vinegar. 20:30:37 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:30:49 -!- variable has joined. 20:30:50 -!- variable has quit (Changing host). 20:30:50 -!- variable has joined. 20:30:52 Darth_Cliche: It means "sauce". 20:30:55 elliott: would you believe it if I said I liked chips both with and without vinegar, but had a marginal preference for without? 20:30:56 ais523: you don't eat cheese? 20:31:00 ais523: why on earth 20:31:00 Phantom_Hoover: Shutuppayouface! 20:31:03 elliott, my parents *do not understand this*. 20:31:05 Vorpal: He's not allowed to. 20:31:05 As you can imagine, this is really insanely varied. 20:31:06 that's quite different to not liking vinegar 20:31:11 elliott: They would be, except I don't like fish :( 20:31:11 pikhq_: I mean the English meaning, not the meaning of whatever Hindi word it was borrowed from 20:31:12 elliott: doctors order? 20:31:15 i think i like fish and chips 20:31:16 Vorpal: I have a huge range of bizarre food intolerances 20:31:20 ais523: I see 20:31:25 They respond with astonishment when I saturate chips with vinegar. 20:31:26 some more specific than others 20:31:26 ais523: :( 20:31:29 Darth_Cliche: Ah. Yeah, that's just a vague imitation of Indian spicing. 20:31:31 Darth_Cliche: Primarily coriander, cumin, chili peppers and typically turmeric. 20:31:33 Vorpal: Ask ais523 about that time he was on a completely neutral drink! 20:31:37 Neutral isn't the word. 20:31:41 I can't think of what the word would be. 20:31:50 oerjan, please tell me you waited ten minutes until saying that. <-- nope. 20:31:50 as far as I know I don't have any actual /allergies/ 20:31:50 elliott: ph 7? 20:31:52 Phantom_Hoover: Yes well that is parents for you. 20:31:57 ais523: how specific are we talking about here? 20:31:57 but I go a bit crazy if I eat the wrong things 20:32:09 Vorpal: we're not sure, the results were self-contradictory 20:32:17 elliott, and nobody will stop harping on about that time I drank some vinegar from the bottle. 20:32:18 oerjan: did you wait about 9 minutes though? 20:32:21 Phantom_Hoover: I... 20:32:29 Phantom_Hoover: I may like vinegar, but WTF man. 20:32:31 there's also a list of things that they don't think I'm intolerant to, but I shouldn't eat anyway in case I become allergic to them 20:32:37 It was balsamic! 20:32:46 Okay, that's at least vaguely sane. 20:32:50 ais523: How do you distinguish between an existing tolerance and one that's developed by consuming it anyway :P 20:32:59 Phantom_Hoover: I have a friend who drinks pickle brine >_> 20:33:08 Phantom_Hoover: Wait, people consume vinegar that isn't balsamic? 20:33:16 elliott: I'm not a dietician 20:33:25 elliott: Apple Cider vinegar is OK ... 20:33:35 elliott, dude, malt vinegar is the default chip vinegar. 20:33:36 ais523: huh... 20:33:37 and if it involved spending my time dealing with people like me, I probably wouldn't want to be either 20:33:43 * pikhq_ hates malt vinegar. 20:33:58 There's something about it that's just... wrong. 20:34:00 Phantom_Hoover: I might be mixing up my vinegars X-D 20:34:02 I can't quite place it. 20:34:06 towards the end, they basically gave up, concluding that there was a reasonably stable base of things that I could probably eat which was enough to live on 20:34:07 My sister is allergic to most raw fruits aside from citrus 20:34:14 elliott, balsamic is the dark brown stuff. 20:34:18 I'm alergic to atoms. 20:34:19 ais523: could it be some weird form of hypochondria or placebo effect or such behind the contradicting results? 20:34:28 elliott: Balsamic is the one made from grape juice. 20:34:29 Used frequently on salads. 20:34:33 Phantom_Hoover: Isn't malt vinegar dark brown too... 20:34:34 Vorpal: it's entirely possible 20:34:37 oerjan, please tell me you waited ten minutes until saying that. <-- more like 9 minutes <-- see? lies! 20:34:39 elliott, nope, it's transparent. 20:34:47 helloerjan 20:34:48 oerjan: ... 20:34:54 anyway, I stop being lawful good if I eat the wrong food, so it's obviously in my interest to avoid it 20:34:55 Phantom_Hoover: Uh, that's white vinegar. 20:35:07 Oh, wait, malt is light brown. 20:35:09 ais523: wait, it's that easy to stop you being lawful good? 20:35:12 Which is generally made *from* malt vinegar, but only because that's cheap. 20:35:14 ais523: meet you in birmingham 20:35:25 elliott: it's quite hard to get me to eat the wrong food, as a result 20:35:29 When distilling acetic acid, who cares what the source is? :) 20:35:30 I don't turn evil or anything 20:35:33 more… primal, or whatever 20:35:40 it's a little hard to describe 20:35:43 also, to remember after the event 20:35:50 You're lawful? Odd, most FOSS people are chaotic 20:35:52 I just get confused because it looks clear when you put it on things. 20:35:58 -!- Zuu has joined. 20:36:05 Darth_Cliche: I've been repeatedly accused of being lawful good until I started believing it myself 20:36:11 Gregor: You probably hate vinegar or something like that because you're not human. <-- hey i don't like vinegar :( 20:36:13 and it's kind-of easy to see why, to be fair 20:36:16 ais523: So chaotic good then when you ate the wrong food? 20:36:16 Darth_Cliche: "Lawful" says you want law and order, not that you support *the* law. 20:36:26 oerjan: Yeah, but you're Norwegian. 20:36:31 pikhq_: I know, but most FOSS people I want are chaotic even by that definition 20:36:33 Vorpal: more utterly ranting and nonsensical 20:36:34 er 20:36:36 s/want/know/ 20:36:38 ais523: Would you be able to work on Feather in those conditions? 20:36:40 hmm, think any typical YouTube user 20:36:41 They sound ideal for the purpose. 20:36:48 Gregor: You probably hate vinegar or something like that because you're not human. <-- hey i don't like vinegar :( <-- yes vinegar is horrible. 20:36:49 Coherency is optional, after all. 20:36:55 oerjan: you suck. 20:37:01 Vorpal: you are, as mentioned earlier, not a human 20:37:12 ais523: I'm not even sure what alignment that is 20:37:12 elliott: I can work on Feather in normal conditions, actually 20:37:20 Vorpal: neither am I, that's why I didn't call it one 20:37:24 Vinegar is wonderful and anyone who disagrees is wrong. 20:37:28 probably counts as true neutral via the defaulting rule 20:37:29 ais523: OK do it. 20:37:34 XD 20:37:35 Vorpal: You need an extra dimension on the alignment chart. 20:37:44 "Smart/neutral/stupid". 20:37:44 elliott: you care /that much/ about Feather? 20:37:49 pikhq_: heh 20:37:50 They'd be chaotic neutral stupid. 20:37:53 ais523: Enough to tell you to work on it, yes. 20:38:03 the problem is, after working on Feather for a few hours, it takes me several weeks to recover 20:38:09 but I'm perfectly sane when the process /stars/ 20:38:10 What's Feather? 20:38:12 */starts/ 20:38:15 Darth_Cliche: don't ask that question! 20:38:24 elliott: can we train the bots to just get rid of anyone who asks what Feather is? 20:38:35 pikhq_: I think D&D traditionally represents that as the Int value 20:38:37 ais523: yes 20:38:41 preferably via humane means? 20:38:42 ais523: but only if you work on feather for me 20:38:47 * Sgeo|web wants Feather 20:38:57 elliott: but then we'd be able to sensibly answer the question! 20:38:58 Vorpal: Yeah, but D&D stats suck. 20:39:03 Darth_Cliche: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Feather. anyone worthy of knowing more than is written on that page gets to find out how to get a greppable copy of the logs themselves 20:39:08 Darth_Cliche: and read every log containing "feather" 20:39:09 Vorpal: "Wisdom" is your ability to see things for goodness sake. 20:39:16 pikhq_: true. 20:39:19 ais523: you think implementing feather will prove it sensible? 20:39:29 pikhq_: wait isn't Wis also for wizard spell casting? Or is that Int? 20:39:33 Darth_Cliche: let's see… the sanest (but misleading) answer is "it's an inside joke", any /correct/ answer would be indistinguishable from trolling 20:39:36 oerjan: did you wait about 9 minutes though? <-- no, i responded when i got to it. 20:39:54 Vorpal: Int is wizard spell casting. 20:39:55 elliott: I believe Feather would make sense, if only I had an impl of it 20:39:58 pikhq_: I think sorcerers use Cha or some stupid thingy though? 20:40:04 Wis is cleric/druid spell casting. 20:40:04 which never made any sense to me 20:40:08 Cha is sorcerers. 20:40:15 Vorpal: Cha is force of personality 20:40:17 And I don't care about the casting state for non-primary casters. 20:40:21 My incredibly badly written bad program is essentially a ridiculously inefficient variant of Dijkstra's algorithm 20:40:21 ais523: hm 20:40:24 s/state/stats/ 20:40:27 Designed to write Piet programs 20:40:39 ais523: could eating the right sort of food cause you to code more Feather? 20:41:07 think that sorcerers are people who impose their will on the world just by being that badass 20:41:10 Vorpal: That's what I asked. 20:41:19 And I don't care about the casting state for non-primary casters. <-- wait, who else can cast than those we mentioned so far? 20:41:26 ais523: man, i gotta become a sorceror 20:41:28 rather than working out how to cast magic mathematically / thaumaturgically / whatever, they just glare at reality until it does what they want 20:41:32 elliott: ah, I must have missed it what with the multiple convos going on at the same time 20:42:06 Vorpal: rangers, paladins 20:42:14 and a bunch of custom and prestige classes, as always 20:42:14 helloerjan <-- hi monqy 20:42:15 I see 20:42:26 ais523: well I never really cared about those 20:42:45 or if you're talking 4th edition, everyone casts 20:42:49 what 20:42:50 really? 20:42:54 and in fact everyone is identical, in order to make the classes balanced, just with different flavour 20:42:57 Vorpal: well, it's not called spells 20:43:11 I only used whatever system NWN1 uses. 3 iirc? 20:43:19 more… primal, or whatever <-- "normal"? 20:43:32 but 4th edition class abilities, even the ones that are called nonmagical, make no sense whatsoever 20:43:41 oerjan: you are NEVER going to catch up at this rate 20:43:41 oerjan: no 20:43:45 it's, umm, a lot like being drunk 20:43:53 or at least, how other people act when they're drunk 20:44:16 I get really emotional, and don't bother with trying to act sanely at all 20:44:26 Vorpal: Rangers, paladins, bards, splatbooks. 20:44:26 I got into fights sometimes in that state, too 20:44:33 *Everybody* forgets about bards! 20:44:37 pikhq_: where does the name "splatbooks" come from? 20:44:42 also, I consider bards primary casters 20:44:43 ais523: No idea. 20:44:50 ais523: what's the gnu tla of tabletop rpgs??? thx 20:44:54 having played them at least once, possibly twice 20:44:57 also the monotone 20:45:01 Vorpal: Rangers, paladins, bards, splatbooks. <-- splatbooks? What? 20:45:03 those are basically the only elements of any set i am interested in 20:45:05 I don't remember that 20:45:11 oerjan: you suck. <-- NO U 20:45:12 Vorpal: "splatbooks" are addon bullshit books. 20:45:17 oh right 20:45:23 they're what people try to sell you once you already have the rules 20:45:37 Okay, well, there's also the more reasonable addon books. Those ones are in the D20 SRD, though. 20:45:44 (e.g. psionics handbook) 20:45:52 pikhq_: I mostly played D&D through NWN1. I think the only pen & paper campaign I ever did used GURPS + a few house rules 20:46:04 that was several years ago though 20:46:08 don't remember much of it 20:46:09 Vorpal: Neverwinter Nights 1 is based on D&D 3.0 20:46:13 ais523: right 20:46:21 with a few bugfixes taken from 3.5 or elsewhere 20:46:40 The distinction between 3.0 and 3.5 is fairly minor, though. 20:46:46 yep 20:46:52 they're noticeably different, in that you'll notice the differences 20:46:58 but you won't care all that much about them 20:47:05 right 20:47:09 noticeably different in that the differences are merely noticeable 20:47:11 rather than being major 20:47:12 D&D 4 sounds horrible 20:47:23 Vorpal: it's basically an entirely different game from 1..3 20:47:32 it has some interest as a wargame 20:47:38 but it doesn't seem like a sensible basis for an RPG 20:47:43 ais523: on the other hand I know a guy who refuses to play any D&D apart from AD&D 1. I don't understand why. 20:47:46 I prefer GURPS anyway 20:47:58 Darth_Cliche: GURPS has interesting grappling :P 20:47:58 Vorpal: well, D&D has got a lot less lethal over time 20:48:03 GURPS is a really fun system, though even *less* balanced than D&D. 20:48:17 Say again? 20:48:26 GURPS is what you get if you combine every roleplay concept ever together in one RPG 20:48:26 It's probably impossible to be both balanced and generic, though. 20:48:28 ais523: unehlfpul :'( 20:48:30 and try to make the rules cover all of tehm 20:48:39 elliott: sorry, I'm trying to figure out what you mean by the tla and the monotone 20:48:41 oerjan: you are NEVER going to catch up at this rate <-- plausible. 20:48:44 ais523: Works surprisingly well, considering. 20:48:49 and I feel that the RPG systems exist, but I don't know what they are 20:48:54 ais523: well, if D&D is the SVN, or the git, or whatever you think it analogises closest to 20:48:59 GURPS is what you get if you combine every roleplay concept ever together in one RPG <-- yes kind of 20:49:10 ais523: I think it is GURPS that have the insane grappling rules, isn't it? 20:49:12 or was it D&D 20:49:16 ais523: hmm, GURPS ~ DCSS? 20:49:17 I don't think I ever grappled in either 20:49:24 understanding through analogy is difficult :D 20:49:29 Vorpal: D&D has the non-functioning grappling rules. 20:49:30 Vorpal: D&D's grappling rules are vaguely tacked on and look a little out of place 20:49:43 although they work much better in 3rd edition than they did in previous versions 20:49:44 pikhq_: I mean the one with really really complex one 20:49:45 I can't remember how, but they actually break. 20:49:54 That'd be D&D. 20:49:57 ah okay 20:49:58 (i.e. they look weird and only break occasionally, rather than looking weird and breaking all the time) 20:50:07 right 20:50:11 ais523: break in what way? 20:50:16 elliott: you could compare D&D 3 to svn decently 20:50:35 ais523: as in references to table entry 59 in a 50 entry long table? 20:50:36 Vorpal: I haven't seen the 2nd edition "wrestling table", but it was apparently ridiculous 20:50:40 whereas in 3rd ed, it's just fiddly 20:50:44 I see 20:50:44 and broken as in game balance 20:50:45 Vorpal: They lead you into undefined semantics. 20:50:50 pikhq_: :D 20:51:02 * Darth_Cliche opens up http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2010-12-14.txt and rolls eyes at "00:04:11: * oerjan ponders making a joke page for Feather" 20:51:03 I wonder if you could use DF's combat mechanics for that kind of thing? 20:51:42 ais523: what's 4, then? svk? 20:51:58 Phantom_Hoover: doing DF combat mechanics would only ever work in a computerised RPG. It would be unfeasible to do it for a pen & paper RPG 20:52:00 Darth_Cliche: http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2010-12-14 has a nicer UI 20:52:08 Darth_Cliche: but that log is much newer than feather discussions 20:52:09 Phantom_Hoover: too much calculation involved. You would spend ages for each turn 20:52:23 Vorpal, I mean using DF for the combat, duh 20:52:25 Darth_Cliche: try !logs to get an rsync mirror of the logs then grep -i 'ais.*feather' ????-??-??.txt 20:52:28 elliott: hmm, I can mentally construct the VCS analogue of 4, but I'm not sure it exists 20:52:31 Phantom_Hoover: ah 20:52:39 !los 20:52:40 !logs 20:52:44 it would probably involve Facebook in some way, though 20:52:50 ais523: :D 20:52:52 ais523: ooh, that sounds like it needs making 20:52:58 ais523: hmm, maybe Fossil? that has a wiki 20:53:09 Now I must figure out rsync 20:53:17 Darth_Cliche: or hg 20:53:22 iirc 20:53:34 !pastelogs ais523.*Feather 20:53:37 I don't know what any of this even is, really 20:53:39 `pastelogs ais523.*Feather 20:53:47 Darth_Cliche: good, you possibly don't want to 20:53:53 I'm more inclined to say "imagine RCS, except done today, and in Python". 20:53:54 I mean, rsync and hg and all taht 20:53:55 however, more likely you simply won't understand it 20:54:00 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28875 20:54:10 Darth_Cliche: feather is complicated. It involves time travel. And headaches. 20:54:26 "You have chosen to open: paste.28875 which is: a 23600 file" 20:54:28 pikhq_: what, that would be hg or bzr? 20:54:38 Vorpal: Neither. 20:54:41 pikhq_: hm 20:54:47 Darth_Cliche: that link is relevant 20:55:04 wow, I've been working on Feather for /three years/ now? 20:55:13 Vorpal: RCS is CVS, single-user. 20:55:15 ais523: FSVO working 20:55:18 * Darth_Cliche opens up http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2010-12-14.txt and rolls eyes at "00:04:11: * oerjan ponders making a joke page for Feather" <-- well i did, didn't i? 20:55:20 pikhq_: hm 20:55:20 (oversimplification I know) 20:55:26 pikhq_: so what would it be in python then 20:55:35 Vorpal: That but ridiculous. 20:55:40 right 20:55:43 tusho: you would make the jquery UI available as IO commands that Feather could use 20:55:52 anyway why would it make sense to compare RPG systems to VCSes? 20:55:59 ais523: I don't want to know what the context of that is 20:56:05 and will proceed to not find out 20:56:11 elliott: likewise ;) 20:56:31 2008-10-19.txt:12:02:24: hmm... figuring out how to hot-change parts of a Feather program while it's running is a major problem 20:56:32 elliott: I could imagine that with Sgeo... But with you!? 20:56:37 actually, I still haven't solved that one 20:56:51 Vorpal: hey, ais523 is the one who said that line 20:56:53 I'm coming across more fundamental problems in my attempt to get far enough to encounter that one 20:56:59 elliott: yes but directed to you 20:57:05 Vorpal: like i said, let's not find out 20:57:07 ais523: what's the current problem? 20:57:50 elliott: writing an initial interpreter 20:57:59 So Feather is a language involving time travel, which has evolved into an inside joke about it driving ais insane? 20:58:16 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Caught up, also, good night). 20:58:19 I think the solution we worked out between us of using CPS to get complete metacircularity will work 20:58:21 but I haven't tried it yet 20:58:32 Darth_Cliche: that's a good approximation, I think 20:58:46 it /does/ drive me insane, and this has happened enough to become an inside joke 20:58:47 -!- ive has joined. 20:59:12 how exactly are you supposed to implement it, anwyay? 20:59:21 Darth_Cliche: it doesn't actually involve travel 20:59:23 http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Grapple <-- yeah this looks complicated. Especially given all the tables too 20:59:23 just the illusion of such 20:59:45 Darth_Cliche: part of the problem is that a Feather interp can only be implemented in Feather 20:59:50 so I'm trying to figure out how to get started 21:00:20 ais523: shouldn't a method similar to that of CLC-INTERCAL work? 21:00:21 ais523: neutrino computer 21:00:26 (the trick, as far as I can tell, is that although a Feather interp must be written in Feather, a Feather-interp-in-Feather might potentially be runnable in something that isn't a Feather interp, and so can be written in another language) 21:00:31 ais523: you start off with something, then you modify it into being Feather 21:00:47 Vorpal: *retroactively modify it into being Feather 21:00:51 but yes, obviously 21:01:06 do you seriously think I /hadn't/ thought of that? 21:01:11 well, no 21:01:16 but you never know 21:01:33 2009-04-01.txt:23:06:05: cpt_obvious: I suggest you ask in #feather-lang, I think it's empty atm so it'll be safe to ask 21:01:53 Britons: http://www.telltalegames.com/wallaceandgromit 21:02:07 Gregor: Old, no? 21:02:23 elliott: 'snot new, it's old enough for me to actually buy (read: now cheap :P ) 21:02:25 Vorpal: elliott solved a couple of major Feather-related problems of mine, anyway 21:02:36 ais523: wow, i did? 21:02:38 ais523: right 21:02:41 Gregor: have i mentioned that time someone from telltale was on esowiki?? 21:02:43 Gregor: so good 21:02:44 ais523: which ones? 21:02:53 elliott: the one related to eigenratios 21:03:27 ais523: ah yes 21:03:41 gah, now I can't remember the solution 21:04:05 And how goes Scape🐐? 21:04:14 Gregor: not as well as I'd like 21:04:26 hmm, perhaps I should implement Feather just to get elliott to implement scapegoat 21:04:47 or perhaps even implement scapegoat myself, but the problem is that when elliott writes a program, it's superior to everyone else's programs that do the same thing 21:05:09 (Except mine) 21:05:21 To make a good esolang, you need a shiny new concept 21:05:28 ais523: what really? Or is that just what he thinks? 21:05:30 Or a new take on an old concept 21:05:31 ais523: Scapegoat has been on the backburner pending a sufficiently interesting breakthrough for me to be jolted into beginning 21:06:12 ais523: e.g. a good scapegoat diff algorithm 21:06:14 elliott: oh, I thought you'd already started 21:06:22 ais523: well, I have code 21:06:29 but it's more the proof of concept type 21:06:36 btw, does anyone have any feedback on Web of Lies yet? 21:06:48 it still doesn't work on a machine that i don't have to talk to via qemu 21:07:08 ais523: Never made it work >_> 21:07:09 what exactly do you mean by retroactively modifying another language into Feather, anyway? 21:07:22 Darth_Cliche: changing it so that it was Feather all along 21:07:32 but how? 21:07:32 umm, you're getting dangerously close to me having to think about the answers 21:07:40 rather than typing them out from memory 21:07:46 and that's always vaguely dangerous 21:10:52 -!- pumpkin has joined. 21:11:16 Darth_Cliche, by using Feather, of course 21:11:58 so is there some description of feather somewhere? 21:12:39 http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ 21:12:54 olsner: oh no, not you too 21:12:55 Hold on, I'm Taneb! 21:13:02 the short answer is: no 21:13:11 olsner: grep -r feather 21:13:39 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin_. 21:13:48 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:13:54 -!- copumpkin_ has changed nick to copumpkin. 21:13:57 mmkay, never mind then 21:15:08 elliott: you know you were asking about kerio earlier? this is self-parody, but still a good summary: http://qdb.rawrnix.com/?711 21:15:55 ais523: oh, good, paxed knows how to use eir op privileges 21:16:10 * elliott teaches the -minecraft school of op privilege usage 21:16:14 elliott: e rarely does 21:16:21 hire more ops 21:16:29 but doesn't hesitate when he thinks someone is trolling 21:16:47 QUESTION! Are all cellular automatons self-modifying? 21:17:05 Taneb: arguably, none are 21:17:15 unless the rules for CA update were taken from the playfield 21:17:18 hmm, that might be an interesting langauge 21:17:20 *language 21:17:23 but probably wouldn't be 21:18:11 ais523: you've told kerio python sucks, right? maybe e just doesn't realise 21:18:23 elliott: yes, although not in those words 21:18:32 clearly you're not being clear enough :) 21:18:45 fwiw, Rodney is a Perl script that doesn't exactly follow best practices 21:19:04 in order to load a module, it used an old-fashioned syntax whose difference from the current one is that it runs at runtime not compile-time, and you have to handle errors manually 21:19:11 then ignored the error code 21:19:25 which made debugging it really confusing 21:19:43 in other words, it used require instead of use? 21:19:51 CakeProphet: no, it used do 21:19:55 oh..... 21:20:00 I had to look up that meaning of do when I saw Rodney 21:20:00 fun. 21:20:09 http://qdb.rawrnix.com/?470 good quote 21:20:11 require is at least vaguely useful 21:20:15 ais523: I use do in my words.pl script currently. 21:20:17 actually. 21:20:19 to load the data files. 21:20:30 CakeProphet: do you at least check $@ afterwards? 21:20:35 yes. 21:20:41 OK, that's more than Rodney did 21:20:53 I think I improved Rodney massively by suggesting adding "or die $@" at the end of the do line 21:21:27 ais523: yes it's always do or die with these things. 21:21:30 :>' 21:21:52 CakeProphet: that joke doesn't count, the syntax was intentionally designed to make it possible, I think 21:22:14 elliott: I recently learnt that the actual original reason barewords existed in Perl was to make it easier to write poems that were syntactically valid Perl 21:22:23 ais523: wow 21:22:37 ais523: ala black perl 21:22:42 it seems that one of Larry Wall's coworkers was a poet 21:23:13 * CakeProphet has written poems in modern Perl 5. 21:23:18 because I'm cool. 21:23:28 well, it still accepts barewords for backwards compatibility 21:23:35 of both old programs and poetry, I guess 21:23:55 perl 5 does not 21:24:35 in much the same way there is little difference between code and data. 21:24:40 the same can be said of programs and poetry. 21:26:07 I'm going to delete User:Taneb/Binary Variety Pack 21:26:12 It was a stupid idea 21:26:50 No wait, I don't know how to delete pages? 21:26:53 isn't esolangs.org/wiki where stupid ideas go to die? 21:26:55 also, you can't 21:27:59 Can someone delete it for me? 21:28:32 I recommend making a RfD 21:28:35 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:28:36 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 21:28:36 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:28:41 ais523: don't 21:28:54 ais523: ok, now you can 21:29:04 what did you do? make a backup? 21:29:11 CakeProphet: redirects for deletion? 21:29:13 looked at it :P 21:29:18 wait, let's just move it to the mainspace 21:29:22 then Taneb has no right to want it deleted! 21:29:32 ais523: requests. is that not the wikipedia thing? 21:29:36 it's been a while. 21:29:36 CakeProphet: it's afd 21:29:40 ah. 21:29:44 d = discussion 21:29:45 not deletion 21:29:49 wow, that was a weird Firefox bug 21:30:01 I just highlighted some text and then dragged it to the Firefox search bug 21:30:09 elliott: it was deletion at one point wasn't it? 21:30:16 and it ended up in the middle of the greyed-out text that says what search engine it's set to 21:30:20 also greyed-out 21:30:35 that's almost as weird as Konversation preserving its syntax highlighting if you copy and paste into the /topic dialogue box 21:30:37 CakeProphet: it was votes for deletion 21:30:51 ais523: that's very reproducible, iirc 21:30:55 (which, as the client itself is set to white on black, and the /topic box is generally black on white, makes it hard to read) 21:30:56 but presumably pretty low priority 21:31:02 elliott: I didn't say it was unreproducible 21:31:06 just that it was weird 21:31:07 ais523: white on black? :( 21:31:12 I don't see why there has to be a correlation 21:31:31 elliott: I prefer dark colours to predominate on my computer screen, it becomes easier to look at for extended periods of time 21:31:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:31:41 ais523: I would accept off-white on dark grey 21:32:15 elliott: the foreground isn't pure white, IIRC 21:32:17 although it might be 21:32:21 the background is pure black, I think 21:32:29 my own comments are light red, nickpings are bright red 21:32:33 the background's the main problem 21:32:36 and notices and server messages are dark yellow 21:32:38 irssi is grey on faded blue for topic. 21:33:23 hmm, why does recursive grep default to recursively grepping stdin? 21:33:30 surely specifying -r is a clue that stdin isn't a good place to read from? 21:33:53 ais523: not even gnu people think tools should second-guess you, usually 21:34:00 see: unix philosophy 21:34:04 elliott: right 21:34:06 it should maybe error out according to gnu design 21:34:10 but it definitely shouldn't default to . or anything 21:34:12 if it's documented behaviour, it's not guessing, I suppose 21:34:24 it's second-guessing, just not first-guessing 21:34:31 erroring on -r would make sense 21:34:49 I hate it when I can't tell whether a program is waiting on a long-running disk/CPU calculation, or waiting on stdin 21:34:58 ais523: it would make sense for gnu design, not unix design 21:35:07 also, that should be solved some other way 21:35:14 terminals should indicate when they want input 21:35:29 well, they /do/ (see IO::Pty::HalfDuplex) 21:35:29 e.g., I don't think an input cursor should be displayed when input isn't desired 21:35:35 but not normally in a user-visible way 21:35:46 (IPHD is both awesome and crazy, incidentally; I didn't write it, but I envy it) 21:35:46 (that works better with line cursors than block) 21:35:52 (since it's less obtrusive and thus less jarring) 21:36:20 ais523: hmm, how is it reported? 21:36:28 ais523: select() showing the tty is ready for writing? 21:37:04 elliott: by reads blocking until the terminal is ready to receive input 21:37:08 that's what the HalfDuplex bit is about 21:37:24 but ofc that isn't inherent to the way the module works internally, just the way it's designed to be used 21:37:58 ais523: no, I mean, how is it implemented internally 21:38:13 hmm, oh, ugly 21:38:15 on all POSIXy platforms but BSD, using job contorl 21:38:17 *control 21:38:26 it pretends to be a shell that just backgrounded the program 21:38:30 ais523: why does my select() solution not work? because it'd report being ready for writing even before it /blocks/ on reading? 21:38:38 then it gets a signal when the program's ready for input 21:38:40 elliott: ofc 21:38:45 grr 21:38:51 it's ready for writing until the write buffer is filled 21:38:58 "In particular, programs like qemu and telnet cannot be expected to ever work with this." 21:38:58 :-( 21:39:24 you could do it with telnet/ssh by having a helper program at the other end, I guess 21:40:23 ais523: so does taeb use that? 21:40:29 yes 21:40:37 most of its development was driven by a desire to use it in TAEB 21:40:46 and it's how I know about it 21:42:27 you should see what it does on BSD sometime 21:42:34 (which I don't fully understand, but it involves a debug API) 21:44:23 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 21:44:51 hmm 21:48:20 ais523: why do ansi terminal codes suck :( 21:48:36 elliott: Sturgeon's law? 21:48:42 ais523: no but i mean 21:48:48 ais523: you know how you can scroll up in a terminal 21:49:23 many terminals have that feature, yes 21:49:35 ais523: that's a lie 21:49:43 you actually can't modify any lines above the actual visible size of the terminal 21:49:43 ? 21:49:48 so for instance 21:49:57 terminal is 24 lines high? my program can do 24 progress bars 21:50:01 oh, you mean that the scrollback is lying to you in that they aren't actually part of the terminal? 21:50:01 even if you could have one above it 21:50:04 it couldn't change 21:50:06 ais523: yes >:( 21:50:12 why did you /expect/ them to be? 21:50:29 ais523: because the size of a viewport should not affect the size of the underlying medium? 21:50:32 * Phantom_Hoover really needs to unsubscribe from the Golly mailing list. 21:50:36 ais523: pdfs don't get smaller when i resize evince 21:50:43 change the terminal program to treat the scrollback buffer as part of the visible screen 21:50:56 olsner: i'm tempted 21:50:59 elliott: using programs like tmux, you can have a viewport a different size from the terminal itself 21:51:00 couldn't the terminal just grow by one line every line? 21:51:11 however, most programs assume terminals have a vaguely consistent size 21:51:14 ais523: so? it's still stupid that this is how they behave by default >:( 21:51:18 i mean 21:51:22 the terminal viewport size makes sense 21:51:25 for stuff on the alternate screen 21:51:30 and for showing stuff at the correct width 21:51:36 but forbidding modifications above the viewport is dumb dumb dumb 21:51:48 elliott: what if a program scrolled its output sideways rather than upwards? 21:51:50 elliott: it'll mess up "full screen" applications though 21:52:22 ais523: those programs are bad 21:52:41 elliott: you could do your own scrollback in alt screen 21:52:46 elliott: so what you're really saying is, "terminal programs don't act the way I want them to" 21:53:00 ais523: yes, that is indeed the basis of my complaint 21:53:05 do you complain when programs work the way you want them to? 21:53:45 I imagine he consider what the majority would want first 21:53:45 elliott: hmm 21:53:47 before complaining 21:53:51 knowing ais523 that is 21:54:00 Vorpal: sometimes, but not necessarily 21:54:09 heh 21:54:29 the needs of the me outweigh the needs of the many, or few 21:54:37 elliott: btw, what's the appropriate reaction to someone who says they're having problems getting Pulseaudio working on Windows? 21:54:58 ais523: /ignore, delete from all contact lists, deny existence of in future, avoid in real life 21:54:59 ais523: did this actually happen? Where? 21:55:31 Vorpal: yes, and telling you would probably get me into trouble 21:55:43 ais523: was it on irc though? Mailing list? reddit? 21:55:48 IRC 21:55:50 ah 21:55:57 ais523: help them get pulseaudio working in windows, should prove interesting 21:56:01 * ais523 tries to work out why that's relevant 21:56:01 ais523: so +s channel then? 21:56:10 Vorpal: I assume so 21:56:16 mhm 21:56:20 how do you check a channel for +sness? mode? 21:56:36 ais523: are they a member of the UNDEAD? 21:56:43 elliott: how would I know? 21:56:46 ais523: in my client /mode prints the mode of the current channel if given no parameters 21:56:50 ais523: it could be a channel for the UNDEAD 21:56:52 I think it's likely to be unlikely, though 21:57:07 aha, in this client, /mode-ing a channel prints its mode /in that channel/ 21:57:10 which is why I couldn't find its answer 21:57:13 ah 21:57:15 yes, it's a +s channel 21:57:26 ais523: how does "likely to be unlikely" differ from a plain "unlikely"? 21:57:40 I'm not sure 21:57:46 well, you used it 21:57:48 I think it implies there's a chance it isn't unlikely 21:57:52 presumably for a reason 21:58:01 hm 21:58:05 hmm, I was thinking about that too 21:58:42 well it kind of makes sense, but I'm not sure I can think of an actual situation it really makes sense to use that instead of a plain "unlikely" 21:59:27 plain unlikely implies that you know the likelihood 21:59:55 hm I guess so 22:00:04 and likely to be unlikely means there's some uncertainty in the likelihood 22:00:13 still, "likely to be unlikely" sounds awkward 22:08:43 -!- mtve has joined. 22:13:06 ais523: oh /no/ 22:13:24 elliott: ? 22:13:47 ais523: I think I just figured out a sufficient amount of a protoproto@ that I could even implement it 22:14:00 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:14:23 elliott: perhaps you should do so, for practice 22:14:37 ais523: I intend to, it's just frightening 22:15:32 ais523: have I mentioned that one of my main requirements for the portability of @ is that you can get a minimal graphics-keyboard-and-mouse-with-no-special-IO-drivers-or-support @ up and running from only the portable system sources, ~3000 lines of python, and a few hundred lines of unportable @ driver code plugging into the python? 22:15:40 (python deliberately picked as an unexpressive and boring language) 22:16:02 umm, compiled sources, that is; whereby "compiled" I mean preparsed 22:16:13 but that's how you develop them, anyway; @ code isn't text at any stage 22:17:02 that seems reasonable 22:17:17 3000 is an overestimate, really 22:17:35 I want the abstract machine it's all based on to be simple enough to implement in just about anything 22:17:39 although probably not brainfuck without some pain 22:17:52 Underlambda! 22:17:56 indeed :) 22:18:13 I suspect that if @ gets any use at all, it will be through a "simulator" on top of unix 22:18:21 perhaps even one written in python 22:18:34 you could run your server on @ by having standard debian beneath it and just having it run the @ simulator and nothing else 22:18:44 and connect to that from a window on your local unix machine with @ networking 22:20:24 it's similar to Squeak in this way, really 22:20:30 although with even less integration, and intentionally so 22:20:47 probably the only way you should even be able to access your local filesystem is over ssh or whatever 22:21:08 what about just using a VM? 22:21:10 and running it in that? 22:21:14 define VM? 22:21:26 ais523: you mean VirtualBox or qemu or w/e? 22:21:36 yes 22:21:40 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:21:55 ais523: well, what's the point? that's just an unnecessary layer of abstraction as opposed to running an implementation hosted on top of unix 22:22:08 it'll still be running all the same @ code, just slightly different drivers 22:22:21 well, because of the context-switch stuff 22:22:28 what context-switch stuff? 22:23:07 ais523: ? 22:23:39 elliott: the way that @ is meant to avoid context-switches by working NaCl-style rather than having arbitrary code connecting to the kernel's API 22:24:07 ais523: oh, yes, that's certainly an advantage; but consider that it's a clarity and structural advantage as well as a raw performance one 22:24:15 ais523: here's something that would be a feasible + sensible @ usecase: 22:24:26 you have an old laptop lying around collecting dust which you connect to your router and put @ on 22:24:35 you use this by running an @ simulator on your main unix computer 22:24:39 and connecting to it with @ networking over your LAN 22:24:52 ais523: NaCl being? (Apart from common salt) 22:24:53 you seamlessly run intensive computations on the laptop that would be slow under the simulator, etc. 22:24:59 Vorpal: Google Native Client 22:25:01 ah 22:25:08 ais523: performance doesn't really matter that much for what essentially amounts to a medium-thickness client 22:25:16 the idea of running native executables from the web by statically verifying that they don't do anything nasty 22:25:45 Also, @ even in userspace will probably avoid some context switch penalties, simply because the @ scheduler will be task-switching without them. 22:26:05 ais523: I mean, while @'s model certainly does lead to possible great performance improvements, it's hardly the only appeal of the system :) 22:26:34 elliott: Not merely possible. Inherent. 22:26:49 pikhq_: well, yes; but it's easy to make an implementation that doesn't end up faster 22:26:56 because of the costs you pay elsewhere 22:27:03 i.e. if you have a dumb compiler things go slowly 22:27:19 elliott: what about performance in something like lapack+blas for whatever language @ uses. Not a lot of context switches there. But a lot of fine tuning the machine code for best performance 22:27:38 Vorpal: I've never claimed @ is faster on all code 22:27:51 Vorpal: personally, I find number crunching pretty boring 22:27:52 elliott: indeed. I'm just wondering how much worse it would be 22:27:54 Of course, performance is by no means the sole benefit of @. The big thing is that @ is at least intended to be understandable. 22:27:58 I thought @ was mainly intended to be a desktop OS 22:28:04 Vorpal: desktop/server usecases are much more interesting than number crunching to me 22:28:09 hm 22:28:09 and there it's IO, IO, IO 22:28:12 number crunching is something you don't generally need much of an OS for at all 22:28:17 ais523: precisely 22:28:26 ais523: in fact, @ could just let privileged processes offload number crunching jobs to the gpu 22:28:34 since they tend to be pretty suited to parallelism 22:28:41 ofc, that doesn't always work 22:28:42 elliott: to be fair I do a fair amount of number crunching on the CPU and the GPU on my desktop 22:28:47 Or even the CPU. 22:28:51 Vorpal: I mean, you can inject arbitrary machine code into @ 22:28:52 elliott: they're optimised for semi-parallelism 22:28:57 it just requires very high privileges, and is usually dumb 22:29:01 like matrix multiplication, which isn't a completely parallel algo but comes close 22:29:05 elliott: and anything like a modern AAA 3D game is going to be doing a lot of GPU number crunching 22:29:16 do AA games exist? 22:29:21 elliott: You could probably also do NaCl-style sandboxed machine code. 22:29:27 pikhq_: indeed 22:29:29 I think AAA is the only classification people tend to mention 22:29:32 yeah 22:29:35 (this, of course, would probably be significantly more complicated than the rest of @ put together. :P) 22:29:46 also, if you want to be really pipe-dreamy: proof-carrying machine code 22:30:00 but basically... 22:30:05 ais523: I never heard about anything than AAA there 22:30:06 Vorpal: I mean 22:30:08 Vorpal: look at virtual machines 22:30:16 ais523: batteries included 22:30:19 Well. Actually. Sandboxing for you would be really easy, because @'s not using the CPU's privilege levels at all. 22:30:21 (okay that was terrible) 22:30:23 is the classification meaningful if it's the only one that's used? 22:30:24 Vorpal: VMWare, Parallels, VirtualBox -- they're edging closer and closer to being able to play modern games 22:30:27 So, to sandbox machine code you could simply use that. 22:30:29 elliott: hm 22:30:39 I think it's only a matter of time before you don't lose much performance at all from virtualising them 22:30:52 so if that's what it takes to do games under @, so what? it's secure, it's predictable... 22:31:01 elliott: they don't really cut it for the "getting 61 FPS without vsync native" case though. 22:31:06 Vorpal: not yet 22:31:23 btw is there anyone who plays without vsync except for testing what FPS you can reach? 22:31:25 elliott: The main loss from virtualising nowadays is actually getting stuff through to the GPU. 22:31:53 Vorpal: Some people actually derp and think higher framerates than your display is a good thing. 22:31:53 pikhq_: i'll get ais523 to port @ to checkout :) 22:31:54 I sadly lack an IOMMU on my mobo I think 22:32:07 pikhq_: heh. 22:32:08 elliott: GPU works really differently from CPU 22:32:20 you can't straight-translate with any real measure of efficiency 22:32:28 pikhq_: anyway I might play with vsync if I got 59 FPS without it. Because screen tearing is horrible. But so is 30 FPS 22:32:31 ais523: well, you claim Checkout is how CPUs work nowadays too 22:32:38 ais523: it would be awful if @'s design mismatched those 22:32:42 elliott: right, internally 22:32:49 however, they don't take an input format that matches how they work internally 22:32:56 indeed 22:32:58 but rather try to translate on the fly, and don't do an amazing job of it 22:33:03 ais523: point is, @ doesn't match the exposed layer of CPUs 22:33:05 elliott: what is Checkout in this context? 22:33:11 ais523: so i might as well make it match the hidden layer 22:33:12 Vorpal: an esolang, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Checkout 22:33:15 Vorpal: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Checkout 22:33:18 thanks 22:33:27 * elliott waits for Vorpal to say "tl;dr". 22:33:31 elliott: but you'd have to abstraction-invert to actually run the code on a real CPU 22:33:47 ais523: as opposed to the abstraction-inversion I have to do already? 22:33:51 @ wants to be run on a graph reduction machine 22:34:04 well, OK 22:34:15 ais523: "machine code matches the way processors used to work decades ago, rather than the way they work nowadays" <-- for x86: certainly, but is this true for other ISAs? 22:34:18 I mean, ARM and so on 22:34:40 Vorpal: well, Itanium tried to do something lower-level 22:34:43 and look what happened to it 22:34:57 ais523: "Thus, it makes operations like memory transfers (which take up the most time on a modern processor) explicit" <-- this reminds me of how the processing cores on Cell CPUs work. 22:34:57 I think it might actually have been a good idea that happened too early 22:35:08 they DMA to a local memory 22:35:12 then access that 22:35:16 although I think it was being explicit to the wrong thing 22:35:19 Vorpal: that's how GPUs work too 22:35:19 the local memory being SRAM iirc 22:35:26 ais523: hmm, I wonder if Checkout isn't just a really weird representation of a dataflow graph 22:35:38 perhaps it is, in which case GPUs are too 22:35:46 ais523: well, to be fair Cell is kind of like a weird mix between CPU and GPU concepts, with a PowerPC core thrown in for good measure 22:35:47 but... vliw wasn't exactly new with itanium, was it? 22:35:52 indeed 22:36:01 olsner: I don't think so, but it was the first large-scale serious attempt to do it 22:36:12 ais523: I would be very unsurprised if GPUs turned out to be basically dataflow machines 22:36:24 and it can still have been too early regardless of how old vliw is 22:36:39 elliott: they /kind of/ are 22:36:40 elliott: it's not obviously exactly the same 22:36:49 btw I'm taking a course in GPU programming currently 22:36:53 it seems really interesting 22:36:59 first lecture was today 22:38:16 ais523: "The differences are in the value of implementation-defined parameters" <-- any examples? 22:38:25 not off the top of my head 22:38:29 oh well 22:38:38 are there any Checkout implementations? 22:38:39 no 22:38:59 it's a thought experiment more than anything else 22:39:10 "what would a language look like if it modeled the way processors actually work" 22:39:17 and the answer is "frustrating", I think 22:39:22 doing a level 1 implementation shouldn't be too hard from what I can tell. Might not be efficient though 22:39:36 "level 1 implementation"? 22:40:01 err the stuff needed for doing level 1. Which would form the core of an implementation 22:40:03 > fromList [1,2,3,4] \\ fromList [1,2,3] 22:40:04 No instance for (Control.Monad.Random.Class.MonadRandom []) 22:40:04 arising from... 22:40:05 Madoka-Kaname: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 22:40:18 :v 22:40:46 > S.fromList [1,2,3,4] \\ S.fromList [1,2,3] 22:40:47 Couldn't match expected type `[a]' 22:40:47 against inferred type `Data.Set.... 22:40:50 ais523: anyway from what I heard, coding for the Cell processor is really annoying as well 22:41:01 ais523: behold, @: 22:41:01 hello-world{s9dj3} : 22:41:02 { 22:41:02 Data.Rope{bnj55} : module-sig Data.Rope{bnj55} 22:41:02 Unicode{7zogf} : module-sig Unicode{7zogf} 22:41:02 FRP{45gf6} : module-sig FRP{45gf6} 22:41:04 } -> FRP{45gf6}.Behavior (Data.Rope{bnj55}.Rope Unicode{7zogf}.Codepoint) 22:41:13 elliott: what is that? 22:41:16 @ 22:41:27 elliott: an intermediate internal representation, right? 22:41:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:41:31 elliott: what are the {h3b45h} thingies? 22:41:32 coding in that would be awkward 22:41:37 Vorpal: my guess is hashes 22:41:40 ais523: no, a type signature 22:41:48 they're partial hashes, I couldn't be arsed to tap out 512 bits or whatever 22:42:01 heh 22:42:14 if people have to type out the hashes by hand, they'll get annoyed 22:42:19 never said they would 22:42:22 I know 22:42:23 I'm not running @ yet, am I? 22:42:33 I'm suggesting that some method to sugar them away will be needed 22:42:34 I'd imagine the plain-text is the human-readable representation and the hash the computer-readable one. 22:42:35 elliott: sometimes you sound like it :P 22:42:47 YOU HAVE TOO MUCH ROPE TO HANG YOURSELF 22:42:55 actually, wait, the hashes are in the wrong place there 22:43:03 wait, that was very un-ais523 like 22:43:11 Vorpal: I wrote it originally 22:43:21 amazing 22:43:27 only duckduckgo hit is ESR's website 22:43:37 ais523: oh right, the intercal error 22:43:38 which is interesting, I thought the phrase might occur by chance somewhere else 22:43:44 what is it an error for in intercal? 22:43:51 ais523: also when did you switch to ddg? 22:43:54 Vorpal: running out of memory during multithreading 22:44:01 and when elliott recommended it to me 22:44:04 heh 22:44:18 * elliott stopped recommending DDG after he recommended it to Vorpal and Vorpal started being obnoxious about recommending it. 22:44:20 Anyway, revised @! 22:44:21 hello-world : 22:44:21 { 22:44:21 Data.Rope : module-sig Data.Rope{bnj55} 22:44:21 Unicode : module-sig Unicode{7zogf} 22:44:21 FRP : module-sig FRP{45gf6} 22:44:22 -!- tiffnya has joined. 22:44:23 } -> FRP.Behavior (Data.Rope.Rope Unicode.Codepoint) 22:44:27 tiffany: YOU RUINED MY PASTE. 22:44:43 not because elliott is perfect in terms of opinions that I'd share, but because e made me aware of its existence 22:44:44 -!- tiffany has quit (Disconnected by services). 22:44:46 -!- tiffnya has changed nick to tiffany. 22:45:18 http://www.catb.org/~esr/intercal/ick.htm#Errors 22:45:37 ais523: ooh, wait, that type is actually wrong 22:45:39 it needs to be dependent 22:45:55 * elliott stopped recommending DDG after he recommended it to Vorpal and Vorpal started being obnoxious about recommending it. <-- I only recommended it to oerjan in here. No one else. 22:46:03 it was enough :) 22:46:11 elliott: hmm, perhaps this may end up getting merged with Anarchy somehow 22:46:14 oh come on 22:46:20 which is too specific to be the perfect language, but I love some of its ideas 22:46:24 ais523: Anarchy is dependently-typed? 22:46:26 elliott: admit it, I managed to sell the idea to oerjan 22:46:31 elliott: not exactly, well perhaps yes 22:46:31 Vorpal: hahaha 22:46:34 I think he still uses it 22:46:41 it feels vaguely similar to dependent typing 22:46:48 but I don't think it's the same 22:47:08 ais523: I think Anarchy sounds interesting, but I think it'd also be simpler if structured as functional transformations rather than imperative updates 22:47:13 (can you tell I like functional programming?) 22:47:29 ofc, seeing as I don't really know Anarchy, this may be an ignorant statement 22:47:30 elliott: Anarchy is a language? Nice name 22:47:37 elliott: it is functional, and even almost pure; it's just sugared to look imperative 22:47:53 ais523: yet another slightly pregnant language 22:48:01 elliott: I've written and tested a parser for it 22:48:11 ddg is being unhelpful 22:48:11 ais523: (almost pure ~ slightly pregnant) 22:48:11 which is more progress than certain other languages 22:48:17 oh, i see 22:48:19 ah there we go 22:48:20 *I see 22:48:29 no 22:48:30 elliott: well, it isn't pure, but you can't do everything in it you could in an impure language 22:48:33 that was the wrong anarchy 22:48:37 ais523: heh 22:48:41 it has a restriction that's weaker than purity, but still ther 22:48:43 *there 22:48:46 I just need to figure out what it is 22:48:54 ais523: elliott: I can not find the anarchy you were talking about. Is it an esolang? 22:48:58 Vorpal: yes 22:49:01 elliott: I've written and tested a parser for it 22:49:02 one I've only started making 22:49:03 right 22:49:08 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=anarchy&go=Go 22:49:11 clearly ais523 is just implementing some wildly well-known language 22:49:13 ah 22:49:20 ais523: so not on the wiki 22:49:25 ais523: what is it about then? 22:49:27 ais523 doesn't put incomplete languages on the wiki 22:49:31 intended semantics for a subset of the language are mostly worked out, and I'm trying to figure out how to implement them 22:49:35 Vorpal: type inference on steroids 22:49:41 sounds fun 22:49:44 also, it's mostly designed for tree-walking 22:49:52 heh 22:49:57 it's specifically intended for being good at writing compilers 22:49:58 ais523: anyway, I think @ would be quite happy to host Anarchy 22:50:09 and although it'll probably be TC, would be awkward to use for other things 22:50:11 it's not an unkind host for languages, really, it just has very high standards 22:50:12 ais523: so it might actually be an useful esolang? 22:50:16 hopefully 22:50:21 I may end up giving it a decent FFI 22:50:25 for things it's not suited to writing in 22:50:36 perhaps even implement integers as a native data type 22:50:45 rather than asking the user to make them by hand, like usual 22:50:54 ais523: so... the lexer and parser are not really tree walking, the latter is tree building. I presume there is adequate support those too then? 22:51:01 (I consider a language to be inferior if you /can't/ invent mathematics in it from scratch, but that doesn't mean you should have to) 22:51:14 ais523: it makes me really sad that integers are the one thing you absolutely need to be primitive 22:51:17 Vorpal: I'm not sure how parsers fit into Anarchy yet 22:51:25 @pl (\l -> map fst $ takeWhile (uncurry (==)) $ zip l (tail l) 22:51:25 (line 1, column 59): 22:51:25 unexpected end of input 22:51:25 expecting variable, "(", operator, "$", "$!", "`seq`" or ")" 22:51:25 elliott: for efficiency, you mean? 22:51:30 @pl (\l -> map fst $ takeWhile (uncurry (==)) $ zip l (tail l)) 22:51:30 map fst . takeWhile (uncurry (==)) . ap zip tail 22:51:31 ais523: to be usable at all, efficiency-wise 22:51:41 right 22:51:43 ais523: well presumably you need it if you want to do any sort of useful compiler writing 22:52:05 ais523: BTW, that @ type signature I showed is very non-idiomatic 22:52:18 Vorpal: parsers are the least interesting part of a compiler 22:52:22 that wouldn't surprise me 22:52:25 they could be done externally before running anarchy 22:52:26 elliott: *usually 22:52:31 well, ok 22:52:47 ais523: (it's unidiomatic because it uses a rope of codepoints, which is a very strange type) 22:52:51 but right, parser theory is well known 22:53:00 but I didn't feel like thinking of a document type to use 22:53:04 also, what's a rope? something vaguely list-like in the operations it supports? 22:53:12 elliott: certainly. But they still need to be there in some form. And if done externally you still need to communicate that stuff to the later stages somehow. Which either means a parser for the tree in anarchy or linking C code to it 22:53:22 ais523: a balanced tree of short vectors, basically 22:53:27 ais523: it's a very good string representation 22:53:28 Vorpal: why arbitrarily mention C? 22:53:37 ais523: well, some other language then 22:53:46 ais523: I was thinking about bison 22:53:46 elliott: hmm, so similar to a skiplist, but with a different way of thinking about it? 22:53:56 ais523: completely unrelated; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rope_(computer_science) 22:53:58 elliott: why is a rope of codepoints a strange type? 22:54:06 sounds sensible to me 22:54:07 ais523: in @, the obvious implementation is a 2,3 finger tree of short vectors 22:54:16 because 2,3 finger trees are literally every data structure 22:54:24 interesting primitive 22:54:31 Vorpal: unix/windows mind virus 22:54:32 ais523: ? 22:54:38 ais523: oh, not in @ itself 22:54:53 elliott: what do you suggest instead for representing an Unicode text? 22:55:02 ais523: it's just that 2,3 finger trees are unreasonably good at everything 22:55:22 Vorpal: "unicode text" is the problem; there is no real such thing, we're only used to bare strings of bytes and later codepoints because that's what our OSes use 22:55:29 rope of codepoints wouldn't be a bad representation for "text file found on the Internet, whose format isn't otherwise specified" 22:55:32 books, for instance, aren't unicode text, they have formatting 22:55:41 I assume @ wouldn't be insular enough to refuse to interoperate with the wider Internet 22:55:46 ais523: that's because the Internet is based around byte strings 22:55:46 which means understanding its formats, even if it dislikes them 22:55:49 elliott: right, indeed 22:55:54 ais523: and most people use Windows/Unix which layers codepoint-arrays on top of them 22:55:57 elliott: well how will you represent "The dog jumped over the lazy dog" then? 22:56:05 every justification for strings is just proof that someone else has used strings previously :) 22:56:13 Vorpal: as a document, say 22:56:15 `addquote elliott: well how will you represent "The dog jumped over the lazy dog" then? 22:56:17 714) elliott: well how will you represent "The dog jumped over the lazy dog" then? 22:56:24 TIL Vorpal doesn't know about quick brown foxes 22:56:27 ais523: yes I know it was non-idiomatic :P 22:56:34 ais523: it was intentional :P 22:56:38 also, it has to be present tense, "jumps" not "jumped" 22:56:43 the dog jumps 22:56:51 elliott: and how do you represent a document then? 22:56:52 elliott: the quick brown fox jumps 22:56:56 elliott: internally I mean 22:56:57 ais523: the lazy dog 22:57:13 Vorpal: depends; it could quite easily be a PDF 22:57:16 elliott: hmm, this conversation is rapidly getting too surreal for me 22:57:28 Vorpal: a tree of formatting instructions seems reasonable 22:57:39 elliott: hm. For source code? 22:57:47 elliott: with a defined list? 22:57:49 Vorpal: code isn't text 22:57:52 Vorpal: source code should be stored as an AST 22:57:57 ais523: no, you'd want it to basically be compiled source code 22:57:59 hm 22:58:01 the question is what that outputs 22:58:05 elliott: that is also an AST too 22:58:08 I'm not sure what documents look like, but it's easy to experiment once @ is running 22:58:48 ais523: the main problem with a totally generic document type is that it needs to be searchable 22:58:51 sorry, I have the CS infection that makes me think that anything that doesn't have higher-order functions isn't a real programming language 22:58:54 so it can't just be a program that renders something on the screen 22:59:01 elliott: right 22:59:39 THE NEXT STACK RUPTURES. ALL DIE. OH, THE EMBARRASSMENT! 22:59:48 elliott: what about comments? 22:59:51 the only message that ESR /changed/ from the original, rather than adding a new message 23:00:05 ais523: what was the original? 23:00:05 I liked the old one too, though ("PROGRAM ATTEMPTED TO EXIT WITHOUT ERROR MESSAGE") 23:00:13 ah 23:00:16 Vorpal: comments should be documents too, but why can't they just be arbitrary objects? 23:00:24 there's no reason you shouldn't be able to add an audio file as a comment 23:00:25 elliott: hm I guess so 23:00:30 or, more reasonably, a picture 23:00:38 (even if you could just have a document composed only of a picture, it's unnecessary indirection) 23:01:10 elliott: lets say I'm editing a function, how will you represent this on screen? As a piece of text? 23:01:40 Vorpal: have you ever read a paper which had Haskell code in it? 23:01:44 it'll probably look something like that 23:02:10 elliott: I read one that had Miranda code 23:02:20 Vorpal: probably not 23:02:24 go read some mcbride or something :P 23:02:28 elliott: hmm, what about literate programs? 23:02:29 elliott: got a link? 23:02:40 I'm trying to work out if the programs should be "outside" or "inside" comments 23:02:51 or if there should be some other method for doing so 23:02:57 elliott: ddg is rather unhelpful here 23:03:11 hmm, there's taht functional pearl i read a while back 23:03:13 elliott: mcbride is obviously a name. Probably knowing the first name would help 23:03:22 it was just a joke :P 23:03:24 but here, http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=indexed%20monad%20functional%20pearl&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CDUQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpersonal.cis.strath.ac.uk%2F~conor%2FKleisli.pdf&ei=B7W5TovkAsmM-wbhz7WFCA&usg=AFQjCNG5aO2kQrYOjP71SltPo1vW7kQrMQ&sig2=tjbXn6dw84MjElfdiKoySw 23:03:26 ugh 23:03:30 personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~conor/Kleisli.pdf 23:03:41 hmm, I think "FLAG ETIQUETTE FAILURE BAD SCOUT NO BISCUIT" is the newest error message there, it's one of ESR's 23:03:59 ais523: that's rubbish 23:04:11 hmm, it's not /that/ bad 23:04:34 "NO SKELETON IN MY CLOSET, WOE IS ME!" would be great if it was just the bit before the comma 23:04:40 elliott: I can see plenty of haskell source code in there 23:04:47 nicely formatted 23:04:48 Vorpal: that's the point 23:05:08 but nothing special about it. I mean, it is kind of how it would show in your typical editor, modulo italics and colours 23:05:11 elliott: things like syntax highlighting shouldn't be part of the program object, though 23:05:13 Vorpal: and operators 23:05:22 hm good point 23:05:30 ais523: anyway, re literate programs: I'm undecided. I think @ can support both just fine. I don't know which the system itself should prefer. 23:05:31 elliott: didn't even notice that to begin with 23:05:34 hmm, the problem with Unicode is that it's inherently linear 23:05:52 Unicode isn't that good, but @ uses it as a source of actual characters because it's good enough 23:06:01 elliott: would it be possible to make that compile by defining the relevant unicode symbols as operators? 23:06:04 and because being incompatible with it in 2011 would be completely unjustifiable 23:06:09 indeed 23:06:10 Vorpal: who says those are valid unicode? 23:06:15 Vorpal: there's no unicode for "star in a diamond", last i checked 23:06:16 elliott: perhaps you should finish Kitten first 23:06:23 to give you a usable OS to develop @ on 23:06:24 which is what (<*>) is usually rendered as 23:06:38 elliott: hrrm 23:06:39 ais523: I think Kitten is easy enough to develop at this stage that I can entertain @ thoughts 23:06:45 indeed 23:06:50 nothing wrong in thinking 23:06:57 ais523: I need to push through this design skeleton of protoproto@ to something that can run the simplest system that's sort of like @ 23:07:07 since that'll be a big win in terms of being able to experiment beyond that 23:07:48 Unicode isn't that good, but @ uses it as a source of actual characters because it's good enough <-- yeah, they didn't add Klingon did they? 23:07:55 Vorpal: they didn't 23:08:01 see, it isn't good at all 23:08:09 there is a common embedding of Klingon into Unicode that isn't standard, but doesn't contradict the standard 23:08:14 by defining some of the private use area 23:08:17 right 23:08:28 approx how large is the private use area, I don't remember 23:08:37 considerably larger than Klingon is 23:08:39 hello-world : 23:08:39 M : { 23:08:39 Data : { Rope : module-sig Data.Rope{bnj55} } 23:08:39 Unicode : module-sig Unicode{7zogf} 23:08:39 FRP : module-sig FRP{45gf6} 23:08:39 } -> M.FRP.Behavior (M.Data.Rope.Rope M.Unicode.Codepoint) 23:08:41 that's better 23:08:43 ais523: fair enough 23:08:44 but rather small compared to Unicode as a whole 23:09:09 now to try and give some example /code/ for hello-world 23:10:43 gah, I said Behavior 23:10:51 -!- Patashu has joined. 23:10:59 ais523: make sure I don't typo my names again, pls :) 23:11:19 haha 23:11:33 why would the names be written as sequence-of-letters anyway 23:11:39 XD 23:11:45 as in, why shouldn't Color and Colour be identical? 23:12:13 { 23:12:14 use Data.Rope as Rope importing Rope 23:12:14 use Unicode importing Codepoint 23:12:14 use FRP importing Behaviour 23:12:14 23:12:15 hello-world : Behaviour (Rope Codepoint) 23:12:16 hello-world = point Rope['H', 'e', 'l', 'l', 'o', ',', ' ', 'w', 'o', 'r', 'l', 23:12:18 'd', '!'] 23:12:20 } 23:12:27 that Rope[...] is misleading; it is actually a Rope object embedded into the code 23:12:35 who needs to build up constants from functions when you can just include them in the source? 23:14:05 oh, oops! 23:14:09 ais523: can you spot the error in the above program? 23:14:14 (@ could!) 23:14:56 you didn't define lists? 23:14:59 @src sequence 23:14:59 sequence [] = return [] 23:15:00 sequence (x:xs) = do v <- x; vs <- sequence xs; return (v:vs) 23:15:00 -- OR: sequence = foldr (liftM2 (:)) (return []) 23:15:09 oh, right, that's the embedded object 23:15:10 ais523: I didn't use lists 23:15:20 ais523: hint: where is "point" imported from? 23:15:26 aha 23:15:29 I missed the "point" 23:15:38 well, ropes aren't behaviours of ropes 23:15:52 what's required is 23:15:52 use Control.Applicative importing point 23:15:53 or similar 23:16:18 anyway, ostensibly one can ask an @ computer, given the above, "hello-world", and get back a container with that rope inside, never changing 23:16:35 a more interesting program would be one that cycles through different ropes or even responds to input 23:16:36 elliott: that list sounds quite annoying to write out like that 23:16:41 Vorpal: there are no lists 23:16:46 elliott: well.... 23:17:05 elliott: ['H', 'e', 'l', 'l', 'o', ',', ' ', 'w', 'o', 'r', 'l', 'd', '!'] <-- writing that seems really annoying 23:17:07 point me to the list 23:17:13 that Rope[...] is misleading; it is actually a Rope object embedded into the code 23:17:15 there's no list 23:17:16 call it whatever you like 23:17:21 elliott: certainly 23:17:36 so, you missed the part where I said you wouldn't actually use ropes of codepoints in rpactice, right? :) 23:17:43 elliott: whatever it is, it seems annoying to use if you just want to display a message to the user 23:17:54 elliott: so what would you do in practise for the hello world 23:18:00 what would the idiomatic hello world look like 23:18:01 use a document type 23:18:09 and I don't know, it's impossible to determine @'s idioms before it exists 23:18:13 hm 23:18:41 elliott: so what would you do to display "Error connecting to host", would you display a document with that "text" in it? 23:18:54 Eh? 23:18:56 yes. 23:18:59 > ['H', 'e', 'l', 'l', 'o', ',', ' ', 'w', 'o', 'r', 'l', 'd', '!'] == "Hello, world!" 23:18:59 True 23:19:00 hm okay 23:19:03 Why do you have to write it out as a list? 23:19:11 Madoka-Kaname: that was NOT haskell code 23:19:16 Oh. 23:19:18 That makes sense. 23:19:21 elliott: where would actual ropes be used then? 23:19:23 { 23:19:23 use Text.Doc importing Doc 23:19:23 use FRP importing Behaviour 23:19:23 use Control.Applicative importing point 23:19:23 23:19:23 hello-world : Behaviour Doc 23:19:25 hello-world = point "Hello, world!" 23:19:27 } 23:19:29 Vorpal: smile 23:19:31 Vorpal: and probably internally 23:19:39 representing runs of unformatted text as ropes of codepoints, etc. 23:19:46 elliott: "smile" here being? 23:19:56 Vorpal: because i converted it to use an imaginary Doc type 23:20:00 right 23:20:03 the "world!" is actually italic there, you just can't see it :) 23:20:09 hah 23:20:30 elliott: that might make it a bit tricky to pastebin code to discuss it over irc :P 23:20:40 elliott: if it can't easily be represented as pure text I mean 23:20:40 Vorpal: that's why @ has a standardised object interchange format 23:20:44 right 23:20:45 presumably, there'll be @bins 23:20:54 for linking to people over legacy protocols 23:21:21 Vorpal: in a @ communications protocol, you would of course exchange objects 23:21:27 so you could just embed source code in your message 23:21:29 elliott: I guess we will see if @ becomes the next Linux. 23:21:34 I doubt it though 23:21:44 the next shitty imitations of a decades-old obsolete system? 23:21:50 elliott: not in that sense :P 23:21:57 elliott: I meant "the next big open source OS" 23:22:08 I doubt it, but I've never really cared much about that 23:22:16 I would like to think it'll get at least ten users 23:22:27 probably nobody but me will actually boot it as their main OS 23:22:39 elliott: I believe that is more ambitious than Linus original goal :P 23:23:09 I would like to think @ would take off, but actually it'd probably be pretty hellish. 23:23:21 People would start shipping proprietary @ source. 23:23:22 elliott: I would certainly try it out under qemu if it is ever implemented 23:23:30 would that even work? 23:23:34 Not long until programs become ObfuscatedPropriertyInterpreter("...binary data..."). 23:23:46 s/Proprierty/Proprietary/ 23:24:00 elliott: I guess that will happen for the graphics drivers. 23:24:05 at least 23:24:11 Vorpal: "will" -- @ won't get to that stage. 23:24:18 well if it would 23:24:19 I meant 23:24:26 When @ is small, I can just yell at people if they do things like that *shrug* 23:25:19 elliott: I would certainly try it out under qemu if it is ever implemented 23:25:20 would that even work? 23:25:23 Vorpal: Were these statements linked? 23:25:32 elliott: let me look up 23:25:40 nope 23:25:46 People would start shipping proprietary @ source. would that even work? 23:25:50 Right. 23:25:50 elliott: was the linkage 23:26:06 Vorpal: Anyway, I wouldn't bother running @ in qemu, since like I've said it'll be hostable on Unix. 23:26:11 elliott: I can't imagine it NOT working under qemu 23:26:19 right 23:26:29 elliott: reminds me of inferno in that regard 23:26:39 except I never got inferno to actually work 23:26:48 But I would recommend people try actually booting it if it works out -- it'll be very interesting to see how much the scheduler/IO stuff actually helps. 23:27:08 elliott: well, I would probably disconnect all my hdds first :P 23:27:11 which is a chore 23:27:28 Vorpal: Well, like I said, my baseline is <3000 lines of Python + a small bit of @ driver code to connect to the Python "hardware" + the standard @ image = hosted @ system with graphics, keyboard and mouse (no other special IO). 23:27:40 If you can't implement that, then the abstract machine is too complex. 23:27:49 Obviously it'll take more lines to be efficient and do things like networking. 23:27:58 given that I need to remove one disk compartment to properly read the SATA connectors, because the direct path is blocked by the GPU heatsink 23:28:06 reach* 23:28:26 elliott: fair enougj 23:28:28 I wouldn't worry about @ clobbering your HDs, unless you think I'm malicious or whatever. It's kind of meant to eliminate a very large portion of those sorts of errors :P 23:28:28 enough* 23:28:49 elliott: do I trust you completely to not make any mistakes still? Nope. 23:29:01 Vorpal: It's pretty damned hard to do HD-hosing mistakes. 23:29:05 ais523: quick, tell me how anarchy and scapegoat fit together 23:29:08 Vorpal: you trust Linux not to? 23:29:09 elliott: I appeal to authority here. The authority of Murphy 23:29:11 you trust Windows not to? 23:29:14 you're insane! 23:29:26 elliott: I can't think of an obvious link 23:29:43 ais523: I was thinking of language-specific scapegoat change types 23:30:09 elliott: nope! Guess why I disconnected linux when installing windows. Anyway they had a fair amount of testing. Such issues would according to probability likely have been caught. 23:30:43 elliott: the only thing I would trust more than that would be an actual formal proof :P 23:30:44 how do you even clobber an HD by accident in OS code, anyway? 23:31:02 you'd have to send a very specific, very long sequence of instructions to th drive 23:31:03 the drive 23:31:23 elliott: okay more reasonably and scarier you might manage to brick my network card. I remember an OS bug in some pre-release of some 2.6 linux kernel doing that 23:31:30 for a similar network card to mine 23:31:45 Vorpal: that's ridiculous, you think I'll write drivers for your network card? 23:31:51 by writing in the wrong place, because debug hooks were written into device registers by mistake 23:32:07 elliott: see, no need to do that ^ 23:32:35 elliott: anyway what network card do you have? If it is intel's gbit ethernet: then yes 23:32:41 oh well, if you really think you can trust linux more than @ I'll ujst have to conclude you're insane 23:32:46 especially considering the order of magnitude difference in code size 23:33:09 elliott: Well, there's actually a decent chance you could. There's like one or two network cards that are extraordinarily common in both physical hardware *and* VMs, and are easy to implement drivers for. 23:33:15 (I can't recall which) 23:33:19 elliott: indeed you do have a point. Guess why I would never ever boot anything that isn't at least 3.x.1 23:33:50 Vorpal: oh, so you just recently switched to Linux? 23:34:02 elliott: well obviously 2.6.x.1 before 23:34:20 elliott: and I forgot what the 2.4 versioning system was, and I probably didn't know better back then anyway 23:34:22 the first @ release will be 3.1.1 23:34:29 XD 23:34:34 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 23:34:36 with special Vorpal hd clobbering code 23:34:37 pikhq_: I believe intel's gbit ethernet is fairly common indeed. 23:34:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:34:52 pikhq_: more so in VMs 23:35:12 pikhq_: You should help me figure out what @'s networking looks like. :( 23:35:18 I have the PCI Express one though 23:35:20 It has the major constraint that it has to be layerable on top of either TCP/IP or UDP/IP. 23:35:24 confirmed: it takes me about 10 seconds to remember the rules of The Game when I'm reminded of it 23:35:25 which iirc is slightly less common in VMs 23:35:32 I think my brain has evolved a defensive response to it 23:35:34 heh 23:35:46 actually, more like 30 seconds 23:35:50 I just remembered there was another one 23:35:51 amazing 23:36:08 ais523: I'm so glad I play Not the Game 23:36:18 heh, and just now I remembered the "if you think of The Game you lose rule" 23:36:24 X-D 23:36:29 hmm, it's kind of annoying that @ doesn't seem to be separable from dependent types 23:36:30 there are only three, right? 23:36:37 on the one hand, it's obviously the correct thing 23:36:40 on the other, it makes my job a /lot/ harder 23:36:43 and I don't play The Game 23:36:47 although I know a bunch of people who do 23:36:54 elliott: I wouldn't actually consider that a major constraint. 23:37:11 Being layerable on top of UDP/IP just means it needs to be in packet form, really. 23:37:30 pikhq_: It also means it has to be source-dependent... 23:37:32 elliott: I assume there is a way to embed native code for use in drivers? 23:37:39 And target-dependent, for that matter. 23:37:49 elliott: Not necessarily. 23:37:55 elliott: oh and how are you going to deal with ACPI? 23:37:58 that sounds "fun" 23:38:03 You can have a single port for all of @ networking to be multiplexed over. 23:38:04 :) 23:38:11 pikhq_: i'm talking about IPs, not porst 23:38:13 ports 23:38:24 *Ah*. 23:38:26 Vorpal: (a) Sort of, but you almost never want to use it. (b) What do you mean? 23:38:31 That is a bit of a restriction. 23:38:46 pikhq_: If I could, I'd layer it on top of Urbit's networking. :p 23:38:47 But the alternative is NIHing the thing least NIHable. 23:38:53 elliott: surely you know that you need to interpret a lot of bytecode in your OS to do ACPI? 23:39:06 pikhq_: I wish routers let you give them new routing algorithms remotely. 23:39:11 there is an open source implementation of this already. It is in C though 23:39:11 So you could just define new protocols with router viruses. 23:39:22 Vorpal: I know almost nothing about ACPI other than that it's crappy 23:39:22 well there are probably a few more 23:39:26 Vorpal: Give me one good reason not to just ignore it :) 23:39:30 I suppose it matters for laptops and shit 23:39:36 elliott: I don't think you can avoid it on modern hardware in general 23:39:40 Vorpal: Anyway, interpreting things is one thing functional languages are really good at! 23:39:54 isn't it a state machine even? I'm not sure 23:40:30 Vorpal: Anyway, yeah, I can't really think of all that many uses for embedding native code. 23:40:42 just seen on Slashdot: apparently a microphone error let a bunch of reporters hear the translated version of a private conversation between Obama and Sarkozy 23:41:11 elliott: I think you might need to poke some addresses and such from the ACPI byte code. And then I guess some core parts of the OS will need it. 23:41:15 I'm pretty sure that most of what drivers actually need is access to inb/outb analogues and RAM access. 23:41:24 *And* that can generally be abstracted over. 23:41:31 pretty high-profile for a microphone error 23:41:45 ais523: heh 23:41:51 You don't really need machine code access for that. More like limited peek/poke. 23:41:54 Vorpal: Poking address =/= embedding arbitrary machine code. 23:41:54 hmm, I'm still recoiling from the YouTube commenter who asked how you edited the uploader comments (on someone else's video) 23:41:55 ais523: did they say anything interesting? 23:42:00 elliott: hm indeed 23:42:03 But yeah, what pikhq_ said; sections of RAM + ports. 23:42:11 Vorpal: yes, they insulted the prime minister of Israel 23:42:16 ais523: cool 23:42:18 or at least Sarkozy did; Obama's response was ambiguous 23:42:54 according to the reports 23:42:58 perhaps the translators made the whole thing up 23:43:06 but I imagine they'd be in a bunch of trouble if they did 23:43:12 'I can't stand him any more,' said Mr. Sarkozy of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. 'He's a liar.' Mr. Obama replied: 'You're sick of him. I have to deal with him every day!' 23:43:14 not very ambiguous :) 23:44:07 elliott: well the driver for a virtual machine would need to run a few instructions, at least if it was to use hardware virtualisation 23:44:12 hm that is an interesting issue I guess 23:44:31 How do graphics drivers for VMs work, anyway 23:44:53 elliott: Obama's response is two neutral statements; there's an implication but it isn't stated 23:45:14 besides ports and RAM, you'll need some kind of irq routing somewhere 23:45:28 and I've played a bunch too much nomic, and watched a bunch too much politics, to necessarily infer anything at all into a statement 23:45:33 made by a politician 23:45:50 ais523: Israel will, of course, go apeshit. 23:45:53 elliott: I'm guessing memory-mapped, but not sure 23:46:02 pikhq_: probably 23:46:03 And near as I can tell Israel has more control over US politics than US citizens do. 23:46:11 Why? Fuck if I know. 23:49:51 hmm 23:50:42 olsner: I don't get what you mean 23:52:32 -!- augur has joined. 23:53:53 I should probably figure out what my FRP model actually looks like. 23:53:59 just that some magic is required to either figure out which irq each devices uses, or to decide which irqs they should use and store it wherever that goes 23:54:20 olsner: that's not related to what enhanced access driver code needs, though 23:54:24 besides io ports and memory access to devices, drivers hook into that 23:54:36 no, I was just talking about hardware and drivers in general 23:54:51 right 23:55:06 whatever enhanced access driver code is :) 23:55:26 olsner: whatever (enhanced access) driver code needs 23:55:37 over "typical" programs 23:55:41 oh, right 23:55:44 (no such thing as a program, but anyway!) 23:56:25 I should figure out how the whole irq business works some day 23:56:29 ais523: come to think of it, @ should be available hosted on @, too 23:56:34 elliott: isn't a program just a subroutine (in the general sense) that the user might want to invoke manually? 23:56:42 elliott: right; it'd save the need to use a VM 23:56:52 for something that you might feel the need to use a VM for 23:56:57 ais523: bit pointless though: it'd literally look like a function call 23:57:00 yep 23:57:06 @ already has object-capability, so you don't need VMs at all 23:57:16 well, it might work as a method of mitigating against unknown security bugs 23:57:30 or just testing an @ interpreter meant to run on other platforms 23:57:31 no, it'd /literally/ just look like a function call 23:57:37 ais523: huh? 23:57:43 but it wouldn't /be/ a function call 23:57:46 just /look/ like one 23:57:53 no, it would /be/ a function call 23:57:57 and 23:57:58 or just testing an @ interpreter meant to run on other platforms 23:57:59 makes no sense 23:58:02 oh, that's a cheat-interp 23:58:04 you'd need an emulator for that platform 23:58:05 not @ 23:58:06 ais523: no, it isn't 23:58:10 ais523: here's how you port @ to a platform: 23:58:21 ais523: write something that passes control to it, giving it the hardware drivers it needs 23:58:50 ais523: OK, you could write an @ machine yourself in @lang, but why? the host already has a much faster one 23:58:56 elliott: don't you need to put something there capable of executing the code @ is made of? 23:58:57 there's no security issues or anything in using it 23:59:07 ais523: that's part of passing control 23:59:15 elliott: for testing your @ machine in @lang, that you eventually intend to, say, compile into C for the purpose of running on a different OS? 23:59:37 hahaha, implying you can compile @lang to C 23:59:49 well, you can compile Haskell to C