< 1318723209 126924 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you established what this way is, though? < 1318723222 635007 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It varies person to person < 1318723223 9087 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly most are clones < 1318723742 380779 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1318723742 750598 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it good practice to make the tools used to create the package you distribute, or is just source enough in most cases? < 1318723757 770783 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/source/source available/ < 1318723769 504566 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? < 1318723778 633790 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand the part before the comma. < 1318723868 197630 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: ? < 1318723880 685281 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you make a distribution package (for an open source program), is it good practice to include whatever you used to build that package too, or only what you need to compile and run the program? < 1318723975 684190 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: What distribution? < 1318723982 116384 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most distribution packages are binaries. < 1318723986 29934 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the question is incoherent. < 1318724032 465865 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case, I'm using Scala, so, package = .jar file, launcher, external libraries, etc < 1318724079 348851 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each distro generally documents their best practices for packaging. < 1318724097 626536 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Big, big thing is do not ever include external libraries. < 1318724115 892451 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mean package as in "Linux package" < 1318724131 24849 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uuu... never mind >> < 1318724131 171543 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, do you mean a source tarball? < 1318724160 840730 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: Oh, distribution package. < 1318724166 343850 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1318724168 351751 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1318724173 291549 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: What kind of package, then? < 1318724181 485516 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :programname-blah.zip < 1318724181 979106 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: You should basically include whatever's in your VCS repository. < 1318724187 384121 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/zip/tar.gz/ < 1318724204 314122 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/tar.gz/7z/ < 1318724207 766107 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :...no. < 1318724207 912811 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1318724216 31989 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :7z doesn't even do permissions, IIRC. < 1318724216 360601 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tarballs are the accepted format. < 1318724227 293746 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And nobody has the decompressor on Linux. < 1318724228 278098 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okey then :< < 1318724237 62152 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Everyone with WinRAR can open tar.gz, I believe.) < 1318724241 809117 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Definitely everyone with 7-Zip.) < 1318724253 394491 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tar.gz and tar.bz2 are typical, tar.xz is not that unusual (though don't offer that exclusively). < 1318724272 654503 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: Anyway, you have a source repo, right? [This is me asking a question as if the answer will be the opposite of what I actually expect.] < 1318724283 547589 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1318724285 969098 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I dislike bz2 for the much-increased requirements over gz. < 1318724294 446500 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: tar.gz and tar.xz is reasonable, but really, gzip does just fine on text. < 1318724302 795893 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: tar czf program.tar program-repo/ < 1318724310 339068 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yeah, tar.gz and tar.xz seems utterly reasonable. < 1318724311 826905 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE8B871.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318724313 309049 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1318724314 974396 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean binary release, not source release. ^^; < 1318724315 304662 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: tar czf program.tar.gz program-repo/ < 1318724318 104719 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: Oh. < 1318724325 450648 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: Then why would you include the sourec? < 1318724333 627860 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :source < 1318724341 518770 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source tarballs should be separate; or you could just point people to the relevant git commit. < 1318724364 98175 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the binary release would contain a .bat file and a shell script to launch the program, the .jar file, and libraries, etc. Would it be good practice to include the script used to generate this package in the source repo? < 1318724412 384542 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: You should be able to wipe your hard drive and still retrieve all your project-related work from the repo. < 1318724418 848965 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Modulo stuff you haven't committed or pushed yet, I suppose.) < 1318724430 4250 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: And you should of course version such scripts because they'll inevitably change. < 1318724437 960813 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yes, it should go in the repo. Everything should. < 1318724443 518391 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :That works. < 1318724459 271948 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything you write should go in the repo, rather. < 1318724797 171424 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: How repoducible < 1318725096 812766 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally upgraded my laptop to Lion. < 1318725117 213680 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just when I thought that it would be literally impossible for Apple to put out any worse of an OS than they already have, they have once again managed to dig just a little bit deeper. < 1318725183 484476 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I told you to upgrade to Snow Leopard to avoid you whining. < 1318725198 291086 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I did upgrade to Snow Leopard. < 1318725201 637405 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to to upgrade to Lion. < 1318725217 358238 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured "how could it hurt to get properly up to date instead of just almost up to date" < 1318725217 733066 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goodnight < 1318725219 315198 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So why didn't you just stick there :P < 1318725223 375043 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Quit: Goodbye < 1318725223 827011 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I hadn't figured that. < 1318725242 911858 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks Lion is an improvement overall; unquestionably as far as the internals go, and about sixty percent UI-wise.
< 1318725248 113526 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, shopping for used cars is a pain. < 1318725249 759734 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't like OS X.
< 1318725317 394415 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spaces (or whatever that feature is called), which is easily the worst implementation of virtual desktops in any OS in the history of the universe, has turned into little more than a joke in Lion. Right now it seems that spaces has taken my keyboard focus. I can change spaces, but I can't, y'know, TYPE INTO ANY FUCKING WINDOW. < 1318725332 530172 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That... doesn't happen. < 1318725336 63975 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least not for me, at all. < 1318725347 821665 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funny how for me it happened after all of ten minutes of use >_< < 1318725423 700425 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where the hell is the spaces feature in this preferences app >_< < 1318725436 212112 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION → sleep
< 1318725439 86871 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1318725453 812964 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: There isn't one. < 1318725505 212407 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Great, so I guess I'll go reboot to get my keyboard back. Because that makes sense. < 1318725692 837237 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1318725715 53754 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1318726055 524659 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, now to find a way to change the space-switching animation's speed to something other than its default "fast enough to be nauseating and yet too slow to be useful" < 1318726484 880535 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just switching screens on this is going to make me vomit X_X < 1318726509 929563 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Does that MacBook have a multitouch thing? < 1318726518 279034 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1318726531 571126 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Using Lion will be much more pleasant if you use it for everything you possibly can. < 1318726583 4811 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: (e.g. switching spaces with three-finger horizontal swipes.) < 1318726590 793479 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apple don't really give a shit about any other method of control :P < 1318726618 220107 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, it looks like it's a two-spot-max multitouch (two-finger scroll works, three finger doesn't seem to do anything) < 1318726637 322415 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: So it's not multitouch :P < 1318726658 408715 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the sense that two is clearly equal to one, no. < 1318726918 485636 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1318727436 826452 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Of course it is. < 1318728126 983487 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you even turn off those animations? < 1318728208 669577 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Of course not. < 1318728216 640902 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apple doesn't let you disable animations. < 1318728231 815007 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because having something pretty to look at for a second is more important than not breaking your workflow constantly. < 1318728308 691792 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure there isn't some hidden settings to change these things if you know the names of the settings and can enter them at the UNIX command prompt? < 1318728398 786241 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it is possible that Apple forgot to put in those hidden settings. < 1318728443 738346 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've looked for it. < 1318728451 629819 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was one for 10.6 apparently. But not for 10.7. < 1318728468 765329 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, they removed it? < 1318728574 151568 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, they added the feature of not having it < 1318728828 597761 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :In spite of everything, olsner's answer is closer to the truth :P < 1318728865 443309 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :As near as I can tell, they completely rewrote spaces from scratch, and somehow managed to make an even worse system (which is impressive since spaces was really awful) < 1318728923 102837 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a command to disable the spaces system entirely? (since it is now even more really awful) < 1318729077 221781 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have something like data Exp = Apply Exp Exp | Literal Literal | Case [(Pat, Exp)] ..... should I add annotations, and if so what method? One way I thought of is giving a type parameter to Exp and Pat and adding a constructor which is used for annotations, but is there better way? < 1318729516 661481 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: TBH I think Mission Control makes Spaces basically useful < 1318729527 622698 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially the handling of fullscreen apps < 1318729530 404317 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm not much of a virtual desktop user < 1318729584 819534 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to assume you typo'd "useless" there. < 1318729627 426533 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Nope :P < 1318729648 686378 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regardless of anything you say, for the sake of my sanity I have to assume you typo'd "useless" < 1318729667 236610 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not so much that this is a rational conclusion, as that I refuse to accept any other conclusion. < 1318731032 139348 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1318731062 867910 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1318731276 687259 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PART #esoteric :"Leaving" < 1318731284 528129 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1318731329 957477 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1318731377 961051 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Look at the UK government's official reasons for insane copyright laws: "The creative industries are an important part of the UK’s economy, and they regularly report copyright infringement as a serious problem." < 1318731424 298468 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That... Is the stupidest reasoning I've seen. < 1318731792 940307 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The gramophone companies are an important part of the UK's economy, and they regularly report CD sales as a serious problem. < 1318732197 335876 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The buggy companies are an important part of the UK's economy, and they regularly report car sales as a serious problem. < 1318732390 908007 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1318732437 448162 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1318732510 785310 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The television companies are an important part of the UK's economy, and they regularly report time shifting as a serious problem. < 1318732718 766213 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I implementing deBruijn indexing correctly? < 1318732719 599083 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1318732744 292936 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :assignLocal i v h = case h of { Apply x y -> Apply (assignLocal i v x) (assignLocal i v y); Case x -> Case $ assignLocalCase i v <$> x; Local x -> if x == i then v else if x > i then Local (x - 1) else Local x; _ -> h; }; < 1318732750 158159 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :assignLocalCase i v (p, h) = (p, assignLocal (i + localOffset p) v h); < 1318732753 855750 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1318732761 679397 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :localOffset LocalP = 1; localOffset (ConstructorP _ x) = sum $ localOffset <$> x; localOffset _ = 0; < 1318732779 104725 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone know how tynt works? For those who don't know, it's a company that offers a piece of javascript that, when you copy from a webpage using it, both tells the tynt site that it's been copied for analytics perfect and adds a Read more: then a url to the copied text that links back to the page. Is there a way to hook to copying in javascript? < 1318732831 108698 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: Yes, I have seen those things. Usually I disable scripting when viewing those kind of things, since I want to copy fragments all over the place instead of a single solid block of text. < 1318732861 898943 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I've seen how to disable it, I want to know how it can do what it does < 1318732872 471932 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use the view-source command < 1318732883 16163 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: doesn't help for obfuscated JS < 1318732901 152029 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: Apparently: < 1318732901 483122 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Register handlers for onCopy, onDrag, etc on the window Object < 1318732901 629783 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get a unique URL that will be used as a tracker < 1318732901 777768 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :When any of the registered event occurs < 1318732901 777929 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Send an event to the server < 1318732902 425746 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :On firefox, create a new node with the data that has to be displayed with the content that is copied. Set selection to existing node and this new node. < 1318732905 413954 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :On IE, add extra text to the current Selection < 1318732907 336271 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cancel the propagation of the current event. < 1318732921 121901 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah ok < 1318732930 665222 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a lot to learn about JS, I didn't even know you could do that < 1318732933 521170 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definitely repulsive. < 1318732959 769798 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :var clip = Components.classes['@mozilla.org/widget/clipboard;[[[[1]]]]'].createInstance(Components.interfaces.nsIClipboard); < 1318732962 668322 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a lot of []s < 1318732969 380784 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mozilla seems incomplete, I cannot figure out how to make it get rid of events or make other changes to the DOM < 1318732977 82403 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com QUIT : < 1318733050 914259 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that certain events are not passed to the DOM, or are only called when certain conditions apply (such as which mouse buttons you use or which keys are pushed) < 1318733258 117575 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use gopher protocol without HTML (and also without PDF, SVG, etc) and avoid these problems. < 1318734962 888198 :ive!~nn@189.179.247.113 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1318735162 436543 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: You should use gopher instead. < 1318735179 884948 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was just some line I copy pasted < 1318735189 877324 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the [[[[1]]]]] really necessary? it looks lol < 1318735198 470371 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it reminds me of that esolang with all the []s for pointer redirection < 1318736201 132418 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to lose my mind to craigslist and autotrader. < 1318736669 234391 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. The US is *actually* ending military involvement in Iraq. < 1318736782 340207 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :[citation needed] < 1318736795 964243 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2011/10/20111015191922744317.html < 1318736893 36653 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :al jazeera? < 1318736934 812337 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1318736938 50290 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :terrorist mutant traitor news < 1318736943 862913 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, Al Jazeera is an entirely respectable reporting organization that happens to focus on the Arab world. < 1318736960 24892 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1318737104 926851 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1318737641 701725 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Wow! Only eight years after we won the war! < 1318737655 501963 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I didn't realise the UK won. < 1318737657 345536 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hardcore. < 1318737677 213127 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No we are all American at heart. < 1318737695 504105 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Very well then. < 1318737720 348888 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that goes without saying. < 1318737721 524072 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let us consume gallons of high fructose corn syrup and eat pounds of bacon and artificial cheese food product. < 1318737733 449649 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and complain about taxes. < 1318737742 933642 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :while we drive our cars everywhere. < 1318737745 270687 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Precisely! < 1318737969 362241 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :American lifestyle is a mind virus. < 1318737981 725759 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the word you're looking for is "meme". < 1318737993 710772 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha. Haskell meme. < 1318738006 137064 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :memeplex < 1318738007 461960 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :meme is a just an internet mind virus. < 1318738277 305622 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow software engineering is a really easy class. < 1318738298 728029 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of is either completely unecessary, or something that's common sense that you would do without thinking. < 1318738318 716887 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes, software engineering is not a well-estabilished field of engineering, at least as commonly practiced. < 1318738340 161721 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :software engineering is not a class < 1318738343 602865 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a discipline < 1318738352 168939 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really, it's only sometimes deserving of the term "craft". < 1318738358 974837 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, at a university level < 1318738382 348910 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ...yes, I was referring to "introduction to software engineering" < 1318738386 186395 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but decided to not type that out. < 1318738392 241716 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: also which school < 1318738406 448498 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Southern Polytechnic State University. < 1318738428 681957 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :highly pretigious. well-known. etc. < 1318738477 424353 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Polytechnic State? nice < 1318738630 543551 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was originally a satellite campus of Georgia Tech but then became its own institution. It's almost a feeder school for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, which is located nearby. < 1318738666 166706 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also has an okay CS degree, which is what I'm majoring in obviously. < 1318738679 816283 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: all lies. I'm actually getting a culinary degree) < 1318738691 810767 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I write recursive recipes. < 1318738824 480759 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds delicious < 1318738895 154914 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find the <$ operator is very useful when using Parsec. The <* operator is also useful with Parsec; and liftM2, liftM3, etc are useful with Parsec. < 1318738956 872415 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much has been done with non-character types and Parsec? < 1318738982 254542 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know; but I would like to know the answer to that question, too. < 1318739157 762258 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you ignore the state monad underneath, Parsec essentially solves some kind of complex decision problem involving a list as input. Right? < 1318739245 21298 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it can do that. < 1318739311 876287 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stallman still uses XFree? < 1318739314 851849 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: wat with me. < 1318739765 667142 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wat. < 1318739773 707468 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Citation? < 1318740346 830387 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: http://richard.stallman.usesthis.com/ < 1318740352 357767 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it could have been inaccurate editing < 1318740359 236466 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :One hopes. < 1318740389 937960 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially seeing as he uses gNewSense, and Ubuntu derivative. < 1318740505 238876 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Why CS? < 1318740587 459655 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Maybe he didn't realise the X.org transition even happened :-) < 1318740592 691009 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oh, haven't got to that part of my email backlog yet." < 1318740630 854411 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It does have "free" in its name. < 1318740720 17261 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: uh, because I want to major in something that's directly related to programming and the theory of such. < 1318740731 332727 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure I understand the question. < 1318740751 72108 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean like, why do I like programming? < 1318740758 497718 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, well, maybe the "obviously". < 1318740761 297447 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose never mind. < 1318740778 882589 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION likes programming but would certainly not be sure that he wants to major in CS.
< 1318740796 951050 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: are you in college right now? < 1318740802 521548 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate programming but im unwisely major in cs :'( < 1318740833 90353 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: No. < 1318740840 834095 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think computer science was probably the best choice because a) it's what I like to do b) it will be a relatively good source of income. < 1318740871 835581 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :my second favorite hobby being bulleted, numered, and alphabetically ordered lists. < 1318740877 957453 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*numbered < 1318740887 875677 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: least favorite hobby is typing) < 1318740918 497918 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION will see, he supposes.
< 1318740982 340960 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: is there anything else you're good at? < 1318740997 134746 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or want to do? < 1318741002 790475 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should hope so! < 1318741006 653008 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I want to do everything. < 1318741018 276910 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think CS is probably easier to study on one's own than a lot of things. < 1318741051 681343 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's certainly something you can learn by doing. < 1318741258 786579 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for relatively cheap. < 1318741296 367968 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, unless you work at a car shop or have a lot of money to spend on car stuff, it's more difficult to self-learn car stuff. < 1318741325 290687 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but software is (er, can be) free. And you only need the initial investment of a computer. < 1318741370 266861 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :free as in "free beer" not free as in "free speech". < 1318741401 8310 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i misread as free bear < 1318741407 13830 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oh cool free bear" < 1318741418 734243 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes learning the codes can be dangerous. I have scars. < 1318741428 742557 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :from terrible maul wounds. < 1318741491 194071 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: though if you do learn CS and go out into industry, you probably /will/ have to program something you're not necessarily interested in. < 1318741513 836089 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so far, in my very limited experienced, it's not too bad though. < 1318741520 474573 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is "in the industry" now.
< 1318741526 804561 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's indeed not too bad. < 1318741527 649722 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay. < 1318741536 759823 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it highly varies based on the problem. < 1318741541 310987 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :icky web programing stuff will be the bane of me. < 1318741613 495075 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha web programming < 1318741659 758408 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it's a matter of perspective < 1318741693 930626 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, I could imagine that making my Javascript compatible with any number of different de facto conventions as being similar to writing a polyglot. Ah, that sounds much better. < 1318741781 578406 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/conventions/implementations(?#I suppose)/ < 1318741817 830283 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1318741867 918542 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: so you're "in the industry" without a degree? < 1318741885 559183 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Currently. < 1318741902 135219 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does that happen? < 1318741938 678422 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I went to do a summer internship after high school before college. < 1318741949 583694 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah neat. < 1318741953 767463 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :my high school didn't have those. < 1318741954 1535 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It ended up being indefinitely extended. < 1318741967 409275 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wasn't part of the high school. < 1318741975 269075 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1318741987 413657 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find that it's hard to find internships. many of them require obscene amounts of experience already. < 1318742006 720210 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this looks correctly to you as a transformation using De Bruijn index? < 1318742023 260445 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/BYVT < 1318742039 101754 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I suppose it depends on where you look. < 1318742058 102995 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something. < 1318742097 941764 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: RMS is actually pretty good about responding to email. < 1318742163 418060 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can you have nineteen years of experience with something that was invented only three years ago? < 1318742210 5738 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: approach near-light speeds. < 1318742247 411546 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What sort of weird language is that? < 1318742250 959407 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's Haskell. < 1318742276 403502 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzoskell < 1318742387 739045 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yes, it is Haskell. Although I have my own datatypes and constructors for the program that this is a part of. < 1318742434 697748 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I often find it difficult to read Haskell programs without the data type definitions. < 1318742446 837959 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the types of basic functions on those types. < 1318742454 367724 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is actually a different kind of De Bruijn indexing, where a lambda expression (e) instead corresponds to (Case [(LocalP, e)]) < 1318742483 500597 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: OK I will include the types < 1318742512 488167 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: er, no that's okay I'm working on something right now I doubt I'll be able to help you with anything. < 1318742540 943314 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/FDCd < 1318742561 401957 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just commenting on my experience with reading Haskell programs. I also note that I don't have as much difficult determining things about OO code without the type information. Perhaps this just reflects my lack of experience with Haskell. < 1318742568 437676 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*difficulty < 1318742600 287150 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it could also be because Haskell programs are fairly dense comparatively. < 1318742685 589505 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol my professor just forgot how to say decrypt. < 1318742706 241756 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is OK; but I included the types in case someone else knows the answer but only if types are indicated too < 1318742710 310868 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :at first she said "unencrypt" and then she was like "wait... de... de-encrypt?" < 1318746638 775130 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1318746982 950319 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I implement De Bruijn indexing correctly? < 1318747265 669310 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318747802 905829 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: have you heard of gnome-session-fallback? < 1318748125 613070 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!logs < 1318748133 372713 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :EgoBot: sejriouwejriuweurh < 1318748134 350643 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help < 1318748135 9373 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . < 1318748139 340987 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!info < 1318748139 828978 :EgoBot!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null < 1318748155 21838 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!log < 1318748157 724052 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ewoeirjwoiejrwioehriuwehr < 1318748168 528625 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason I can't rsync the logs < 1318748881 117212 :ive!~nn@189.179.247.113 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318748895 575729 :tiffany!~kawaii@fl-76-3-16-15.dhcp.embarqhsd.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1318749120 954741 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318749830 186147 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1318749838 92928 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: have you heard of gnome-session-fallback? < 1318749839 89606 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :unusable < 1318749844 798130 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is the one i tried and reported on < 1318749876 977350 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :unusual in what way? < 1318749878 460072 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1318749879 972690 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :unusuable < 1318749886 615841 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1318749891 90596 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hlep tpyeing < 1318749903 533691 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :see logs. < 1318749907 809144 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i told you at the time. < 1318750008 874679 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmk < 1318751415 326306 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318751453 446649 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.97 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318751578 444913 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318751680 178145 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello1 < 1318751693 719051 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318751699 611577 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318751730 293797 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.228.97 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1318751969 266232 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1318752034 137850 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1318752197 600455 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1318752329 904646 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: So out of morbid curiosity, how long does it actually take to build Chrome? < 1318752789 77393 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1318753242 686056 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott__: ah, I forgot that gnome-session-fallback was what you were trying to use < 1318753246 283834 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes I remember that conversation. < 1318753280 691076 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks Xfce is the best option for anyone who doesn't want to make the plunge to a non-traditional environment.
< 1318753291 261219 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do any of the Platonic solids form Eulerian graphs? < 1318753311 102125 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION considers buying C418's new album.
< 1318753333 547059 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh! the octohedron does! < 1318753354 770258 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Octa. < 1318753385 544002 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That does too! < 1318753395 54165 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1318753430 546491 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: Exactly how maverick is the air city? < 1318754008 834959 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott__: so in programs like wget and apt-get, what software are they using to create things like progress bars and changing completion percentages? < 1318754029 152580 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: VT escape codes. < 1318754031 508952 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I guess the progress bar can just be regular out < 1318754032 138404 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe curses, but I doubt it. < 1318754043 246958 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually you can do a spinner with just backspace of course. < 1318754074 346646 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes. < 1318754093 771549 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could technically do the changing completion percent thing that apt-get does with backspace I guess. < 1318754141 450299 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh "VT escape codes" == "ANSI escape codes"? < 1318754374 950344 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1318754383 180520 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1318754453 205401 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Better Ctrl+H than backspace. < 1318754473 383258 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that... backspace? < 1318754505 163414 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1318754516 574349 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1318754522 755779 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ctrl+U. Or Ctrl+A; I forget which you'd want here. < 1318754527 981391 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: hi PH found the link to the gravity stuff. < 1318754539 333020 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i saw it, and it was good < 1318754543 524042 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1318754547 883839 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backspace < 1318754548 500404 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that was just two objects < 1318754549 692523 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, good picture < 1318754553 668074 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: um no < 1318754559 291910 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: there were links to add a bunch of moons and shit at the bottom < 1318754563 653017 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh okay < 1318754566 219138 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly nothing for other ships but there was orbits and shit < 1318754581 496165 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: v. arty < 1318754589 198318 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so link again if on hand < 1318754597 169789 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yeah, that's the thing i ain't got < 1318754604 717418 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PH will probably be around pretty soon though < 1318754622 633862 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott__: I just enjoy that it's in a completely different setting from where you would normally find a backspace key. < 1318754634 261556 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: no i use my backspace key in the woods. < 1318754643 926512 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it lets me get in tune with nature. also: bokeh. < 1318754648 344429 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but ph is gay i prefer to have your link < 1318754648 491226 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this should perhaps be removed and replaced with a backspace key in its more typical usage. < 1318754649 779876 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :these are the keys to nature. < 1318754653 727340 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :amirite < 1318754659 696600 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Backspace.jpg < 1318754660 57536 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Josefina_with_Bokeh.jpg < 1318754660 835272 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :same wood < 1318754674 122655 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :child uses backspace daily, to get in tune with nature. < 1318754678 690050 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolwat < 1318754686 653640 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yeah but do you really want to follow a link produced by someone who isn't a vampire < 1318754713 266093 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? loser < 1318754720 989430 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yeah ph is the vampire here < 1318754754 8400 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi guys I'm so la^H^H^H^H^Hso clever < 1318754764 751572 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :laclevjrkerv < 1318754768 862886 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318754769 428380 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :--pakecrophet < 1318754814 324997 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :best longopt < 1318754930 367611 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1318755170 470117 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be a program < 1318755173 53075 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :called elucidate < 1318755192 627064 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains everything about its input, in English words. < 1318755199 438894 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and requires no network connection or anything < 1318755203 594617 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just an AI that can explain anything. < 1318755214 273438 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called the opposite of CakeProphet < 1318755215 69788 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wolfram Alpha is trying to become that < 1318755225 888915 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fsvo trying to < 1318755232 197508 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :without the no network connceiton part. < 1318755254 147662 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the iPod app doesn't need network < 1318755260 915114 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it does. < 1318755269 926051 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no way you could fit all the data W|A has onto an iPod. < 1318755291 68380 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(At least not in a decently-queriable form.) < 1318755299 658583 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, every W|A client just talks to the servers. < 1318755347 842661 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah no there's no way you can use it offline... < 1318756190 546315 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :nautilus-gksu and nautilus-open-terminal < 1318756196 114616 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :good packages or best packages? < 1318756226 45557 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I guess nautilus-actions is, in terms of generality, better) < 1318756244 730021 :ive!~nn@189.179.247.113 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1318756726 665255 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-216-135.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318756760 708646 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-213-19.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1318757241 942827 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1318757288 309689 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott__: is there any inherent benefit to using FTP over HTTP when downloading files? < 1318757296 541755 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FTP is an obsolete protocol. < 1318757302 239604 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no reason to use it. < 1318757308 150196 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about rsync? < 1318757338 466267 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does over-the-wire compression by default and some other stuff, e.g. you'll have much better resume support, checksumming... A better choice than HTTP when available. < 1318757353 726709 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay. < 1318757359 817242 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But over what protocol? < 1318757364 815622 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :http, ftp, rsync < 1318757366 545806 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :are the options. < 1318757375 30794 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also "rsync dvd" dunno the different there. < 1318757379 381154 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm downloading Knoppix. < 1318757380 849938 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. You've never used rsync, I see. < 1318757383 631860 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*difference < 1318757386 597356 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you downloading Knoppix? < 1318757390 420076 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun. < 1318757396 355163 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Knoppix is also pretty obsolete. < 1318757417 711421 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so what do you recommend. < 1318757426 317964 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, I don't use livecds. Debian Live? < 1318757427 297681 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for liveCD distro. < 1318757430 310133 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1318757438 266281 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Ubuntu LiveCDs are obviously pretty complete themselves. < 1318757444 622411 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's an option too. < 1318757465 990306 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well wouldn't Knoppix be a bit faster? < 1318757470 325082 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1318757476 652146 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :less weight. < 1318757483 461653 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you know what you're talking about. < 1318757491 125333 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't. it was a question. < 1318757506 456378 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, Tiny Core is also an option. And definitely the least weight you'll find, though probably more than you want to deal with not having. < 1318757540 950439 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is for a shitty netbook, so lighter is better. < 1318757567 22370 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_netbook-oriented_Linux_distributions < 1318757613 590843 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Joli OS interface: HTML5 + Gnome < 1318757615 12145 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell. < 1318757649 490847 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could put Android on it. < 1318757689 826292 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like a bad idea to me... < 1318757698 967572 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it would be neat. < 1318757704 630400 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318757780 179132 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it would be very light. < 1318757785 723103 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would suck. < 1318757797 286118 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would work well with a low-memory system < 1318757803 361591 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would suck. < 1318757807 857309 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...well, yes. < 1318757868 236255 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Androids application model is pretty interesting. < 1318757899 136166 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How? < 1318757951 562463 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it frequently removes apps from memory and forces the apps to deal with that. < 1318757964 533217 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not frequently. < 1318757968 976830 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the OS can do that whenever it wants. < 1318757979 233127 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think iOS has always done that. < 1318757981 479454 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...not much different from swap space I guess. < 1318758001 969924 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh really? I don't know much about iOS. I was comparing it to regular OSes < 1318758044 459637 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Well, actually Lion does that too :P < 1318758054 243936 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But the app has to opt in to it.) < 1318758077 81963 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense. otherwise you would have compatability issues. < 1318758088 971407 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compatibility issues, Apple's number one priority. < 1318758093 37584 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh. < 1318758146 505403 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Lion can also keep applications running even once you quit them if it think it's a good idea, and lets you turn off the open/closed indicators in the Dock altogether.) < 1318758161 637 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm pretty sure the plan is to replace "Quit" with "Hide" in some future release.) < 1318758181 981740 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's all part of the pseudo-orthogonal persistence thing they've got going on. < 1318758186 144332 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a decent solution to dealing with a low memory environment. (not referring to the parenthetical stuff) < 1318758199 269916 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., apps manually store all their state and restore it on re-open, including things like unsaved documents; and then the versioning system is layered on top of that. < 1318758202 634348 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm... not really sure I get the benefit of orthogonal persistence. < 1318758208 771918 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's "cool" < 1318758228 172355 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Many, many millions of lines of code have been written to serialise and deserialise structures to disk. < 1318758239 461486 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This code is all completely obsolete from its conception. < 1318758286 431720 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but you wouldn't want every piece of memory to be persistent. < 1318758289 469914 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not only are modern OSes faster and more efficient at managing when to swap to disk than programmers, the end result is simpler, reduces code complexity by a practically unimaginable degree, and avoids billions of cycles wasted on (de)serialisation. < 1318758297 843007 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: That's what generational GCs exist for. < 1318758304 624037 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll make a Constantinople successor < 1318758326 747881 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: You serialise objects that survive the first few generations of garbage collection. < 1318758333 171935 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol every dog in my neighborhood just exploded into barking and howling. < 1318758358 719011 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If you want to read a whingy rant I wrote on this early last year, YOU'RE IN LUCK: http://catseye.tc/ehird/files-suck.html) < 1318758361 181468 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the first howl was actually a wolf. < 1318758367 438580 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott__: OH BOY < 1318758369 1518 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(My opinions have since refined somewhat, as has my knowledge of the subject.) < 1318758376 275913 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But what I said there is essentially correct.) < 1318758381 545298 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(At least more correct than the status quo.) < 1318758388 274321 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I've spent more time thinking about this than is healthy.) < 1318758425 315004 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-33-19.resnet.ucsb.edu QUIT :Quit: kwertii < 1318758430 60829 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the key to becoming incredibly knowledgable about a subject is to form strong, misguided opinions and then pursue them relentlessly until you come to better conclusions? < 1318758446 747724 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps this is why I don't know everything about everything. I don't care enough. < 1318758455 132905 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's pretty much what science is all about < 1318758459 961606 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I thought that was what you did. < 1318758480 192347 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :form misguided opinions sure. but they're not strongly held. < 1318758491 261908 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor do I relentlessly pursue them. < 1318758532 246926 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps apathy is my shortcoming. :P < 1318758569 757702 :elliott__!~elliott@95.149.230.188 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318758652 335662 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott__: hmmm, okay so what happens when you have some long-standing piece of memory that is not intended to be persistent, and so becomes serialized "accidentally." is this a fault of the application programmer(s) or the system programmer(s). < 1318758662 261365 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :can I assume that you will instantly logread this when you come back? < 1318758667 912018 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1318758682 306147 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION waits for it....
< 1318758727 68242 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so you're not in stalker mode right now? :( < 1318758734 630342 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1318758739 19959 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :? is no < 1318758744 395629 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION logreads.
< 1318758747 759377 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOOO < 1318758751 655541 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I CAN COPYpaste < 1318758752 965158 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:50:52: elliott__: hmmm, okay so what happens when you have some long-standing piece of memory that is not intended to be persistent, and so becomes serialized "accidentally." is this a fault of the application programmer(s) or the system programmer(s). < 1318758759 355062 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: What happens when you have a purple banana? < 1318758773 196761 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't believe I understand how that's a relevant response... sorry < 1318758775 219761 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :over my head. < 1318758784 123256 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: What long-standing pieces of memory should not be persisted? < 1318758785 907014 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :purple bananas and programming are new to me. < 1318758803 635670 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What large, long-living pieces of information do you want to be completely lost whenever somebody cuts the power? And why? < 1318758851 374471 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Viruses < 1318758860 372323 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, my answer would be kind of tautalogical, and I can't think of a good example. But I'm sure there's lot of OO programs that have some weird monolith things that sit around in the background with lots of memory specific to a current session that isn't intended to "run into" the next invocation of the program. < 1318758862 863654 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you want them lost anyway < 1318758882 997047 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: ok. let me know when you have a real example! < 1318758889 115351 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I suppose most of this data would be overwritten anyways. < 1318758893 984670 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, there is no "current session". < 1318758902 141817 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In an orthogonally persisted system, there are no shut downs, no reboots, nothing. < 1318758909 247163 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything is a continuous live environment. < 1318758924 564911 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: right. so that means there's huge compatability issues if you tried to run an existing program in that environment. < 1318758936 254364 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shutting down is simply causing a persistence cycle and cutting the power; restoring restores the set of objects needed to get the scheduler going, and continues as normal. < 1318758939 876414 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: No. < 1318758951 46942 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Existing programs -- with an appropriate emulation layer -- simply see a system that never shuts down. < 1318758960 575426 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, things that care about the clock skipping will fail, but that's, like, ntp. < 1318758965 762498 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Everything has to handle this today. You know why? < 1318758969 450067 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because /hibernate exists/. < 1318758970 765162 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: also that makes hard shutdowns way more problematic as that last persistence cycle may not be run. < 1318758986 783433 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hibernate is the dumbest, most brutal form of orthogonal persistence, and it means everyone already has to take like 90 percent of the steps. < 1318759003 23399 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? I thought hibernate was somewhat transparent. < 1318759007 678707 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sessions are no longer continuous in real-time; network resources can drop in an instance for any program. It's okay, everybody handles this. < 1318759010 903033 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: So is orthogonal persistence. < 1318759013 924046 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the application doesn't really have to care because /everything/ is persisted. < 1318759017 324184 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: So is orthogonal persistence. < 1318759023 247078 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't make cutting a network connection transparent. < 1318759024 26219 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... < 1318759029 863556 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: also that makes hard shutdowns way more problematic as that last persistence cycle may not be run. < 1318759035 55275 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wow, you might lose like TEN SECONDS of data. < 1318759046 129433 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So much worse than the everything you lose with current systems. < 1318759046 499587 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1318759056 167481 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, I think I understand. < 1318759071 957749 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because everything in the last persistence cycle is in a consistent state. < 1318759093 568810 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :except all of those volatile chunks suddenly get lost. < 1318759115 271148 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming the program continues where it left off this would be problematic. < 1318759133 422328 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You definitely want to maintain consistency, which is a tricky problem if you prune the set of objects to persist. But you can basically do it by persisting the current continuation of the process. < 1318759140 732367 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which you basically have to anyway. < 1318759149 297281 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it's as simple as: Whatever the continuation points to. < 1318759160 637134 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :When the continuation gets re-persisted, so do all the objects it references. < 1318759178 461278 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it created some ephemeral objects then threw them away, they won't be persisted; just a sample of them, every few seconds. < 1318759179 889588 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you don't resume exactly where you left off ---- aaaaah no I see. < 1318759197 427970 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you return the last consistent point in the program execution. < 1318759199 442823 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yeah, you persist the loop index that will last another microsecond, but it's not that often, so who cares? < 1318759200 262320 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*to the < 1318759227 344779 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmmmmmmmm < 1318759255 119825 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :still depending on where it saves you may end up with some local variables that are suddenly gone. < 1318759263 10065 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1318759271 486847 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know what a current continuation is? < 1318759289 113582 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah it includes the stack, yes? < 1318759294 659663 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I have an idea of what it is. < 1318759300 567757 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how are @, mcmap, mchost, and whatever else going? < 1318759301 651502 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the low-level details. < 1318759317 778513 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The low level details are irrelevant; a higher-level detail will be more conducive to understanding. < 1318759338 148313 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The current continuation contains the entire rest of the execution; therefore it necessarily contains a reference to every object in the process that is not garbage. < 1318759338 337068 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the current continuation is essentially the current visible state of the program, right? < 1318759359 64873 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That includes the ephemeral loop index. < 1318759363 15580 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1318759378 508676 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then the persistence cycle saves everything relevant, not based on generation? < 1318759390 831095 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no special-casing. < 1318759414 200837 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every ten seconds or so, the persistence engine saves everything in the third generation or later. < 1318759421 446305 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That includes the current continuations of the running processes. < 1318759423 12721 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay. well yeah if you save the entire current continuation, no problem. < 1318759431 736838 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is called orthogonal persistence. < 1318759447 825447 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem with saving things like loop indices or tables that only last for ten milliseconds is not because it uses space or anything. < 1318759451 949116 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's because it'd thrash your disk. < 1318759454 198580 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you were implying that those local variables which are probably not third generation do not get included. < 1318759475 821200 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I only mean that if you have a loop index which only lasts three seconds and there's no persistence cycle done, it'll be garbage collected and never persisted. < 1318759489 546707 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm backporting concepts slightly; @ has no concept of process.) < 1318759510 405774 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, okay. < 1318759535 172896 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :then that's fine, except for the aforementioned disk thrashing, also performance issues maybe? < 1318759563 339052 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1318759574 488199 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's implied. < 1318759576 972601 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in thrashing. < 1318759580 106660 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What performance thrashing? < 1318759583 705741 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What disk thrashing? < 1318759587 139837 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's every ten seconds. < 1318759588 107033 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318759594 826497 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1318759595 483962 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:03 < elliott> The problem with saving things like loop indices or tables that only last for ten milliseconds is not because it uses space or anything. < 1318759597 154498 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1318759598 490760 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:04 < elliott> It's because it'd thrash your disk. < 1318759604 526729 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is why you don't do that. < 1318759608 320497 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1318759609 803335 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1318759612 100886 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevermind :P < 1318759614 16903 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, jesus christ Ngevd just came in here for like five seconds. < 1318759621 408581 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :he. < 1318759624 320339 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :....h < 1318759630 808071 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a very drawn out heh < 1318759654 411103 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh heh heh < 1318759699 799410 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so you also have to save everything that's been context switched to in the past 10 seconds < 1318759703 435573 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :which might be a lot of data? < 1318759746 40877 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you can prioritise that. < 1318759764 252025 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I'm sure your OS writes to disk more than you think too in general operation. < 1318759769 261377 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318759772 576749 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back < 1318759799 551089 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Question: how hard is it to connect a python program and a haskell program so they work together? < 1318759880 327951 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I have a little disk usage meter that tells me how often it does that. < 1318759901 63872 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better question: < 1318759909 874160 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: with IPC not difficult < 1318759915 610889 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume that's not what you mean though. < 1318759932 249977 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can I get a rng in Haskell? < 1318759944 338022 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :/dev/random? :P < 1318759956 288780 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's answered in Learn You A Haskell < 1318759969 217825 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, a rng? you mean a prng right? < 1318759987 966585 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there an IO function in haskell to get a random seed? < 1318759994 903 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then it's non-IO after that < 1318760011 753322 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1318760015 28933 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :getStdGen I believe. < 1318760034 130832 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t withStdGen < 1318760034 976270 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: `withStdGen' < 1318760037 142487 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1318760037 471789 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assumed he meant an actual random number generator. < 1318760039 529687 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hoogle withStd < 1318760039 887496 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No results found < 1318760058 18426 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :AS I WAS SAYING, < 1318760060 265913 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :getStdRandom :: (StdGen -> (a, StdGen)) -> IO a < 1318760062 974169 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is usually more useful imo < 1318760081 803896 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: okay so if not processes then what does @ have? < 1318760092 139019 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chapter 8 of LYAH confuses me < 1318760100 931889 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also do you need any help with @? :3 No I don't expect to be able to do gory system stuff effectively. < 1318760105 216584 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Stuff. And no. < 1318760133 323432 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes stuff is a good model for anything. < 1318760250 471553 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you still need the concept of a file I'd think. or at least, a store of data that isn't ever put into memory until demanded. < 1318760274 192265 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's called... anything. < 1318760283 465664 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would anything be put into memory if it wasn't demanded? < 1318760332 173958 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose. but then you also need to have a filesystem of some kind. < 1318760335 371405 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, anything-system. < 1318760365 304645 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :where do I put my music collection in @? :P < 1318760396 84944 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I really have to ask at this point if your first response to not being able to think of a way to do something is to declare it must be done some other way. < 1318760401 477771 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've done it about ten times. < 1318760490 458408 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say that it must be done some other way at all. Just that you probably want these additional concepts to allow you to refer to segments of memory-stuff between processes (or stuffs, since they're not processes) < 1318760505 877266 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :re: filesystem < 1318760520 94841 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that you probably want some kind of structure to this method of sharing data. < 1318760520 241470 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, but seriously, you've used argument by incredulity about ten times to declare that you'd still want a filesystem. < 1318760524 716026 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not once have you been correct. < 1318760566 298301 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway. < 1318760575 312154 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: You put your music collection in the most convenient data structure to hand. < 1318760586 806586 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably a set of tracks. < 1318760592 739011 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I am literally just talking to you about this model... not like, suggesting that you need to a filesystem. I am indirectly wondering, how do you solve the problems that a filesystem solves in this system? < 1318760626 801232 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no argument from my part. < 1318760656 950907 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I answered you. < 1318760658 791877 :ranzz_die!~buterfly_@203.78.122.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318760683 333099 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there much point upgrading ubuntu to oneiric ocelot? < 1318760690 101394 :ranzz_die!~buterfly_@203.78.122.79 NICK :ranzz_die123 < 1318760691 802673 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :how they're stored, sure. not how they're shared < 1318760694 947709 :ranzz_die123!~buterfly_@203.78.122.79 QUIT :Client Quit < 1318760698 272064 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: no. unity is bad. < 1318760700 407193 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't do it. < 1318760701 230559 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rip ranzz_die < 1318760704 187272 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: pre-oneiric has unity too < 1318760709 161083 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : how they're stored, sure. not how they're shared < 1318760712 155149 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm already on Natty Narwhal < 1318760713 304070 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by "shared" < 1318760743 110879 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can a music player access the music? < 1318760747 139445 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume < 1318760753 403931 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not know what CakeProphet is thinking < 1318760770 537652 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why I asked. < 1318760773 844515 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, assuming you have more than one program running (not a process, but stuff or whatever they are), you probably want the data that they generate and manipulate to be accessible to other programs that perform a different task, perhaps even without these programs knowing that they may need to communicate with one another specifically. < 1318760799 551562 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah -- they should magically communicate without intent? < 1318760813 529021 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I would like a computer that reads my mind too. But seriously, that's about the opposite of a concrete question. < 1318760843 903477 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is one thing a filesystem can do. you give the data names in a hierarchy and then they have names that can be referred to. the data isn't associated with any specific program. < 1318760870 288511 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, filesystems are a recursive map from strings to {filesystem | byte string}. < 1318760870 614581 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :another program or a human can pass along the name. < 1318760876 71349 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is a fairly trivial structure. < 1318760879 904897 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone can implement that given ten minutes. < 1318760884 908018 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also a bad structure for 90 percent of things. < 1318760906 603559 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, and how is this structure shared between programs? I'm back at my starting question. I don't think it's a difficult question to understand. < 1318760971 335076 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not even a question. I mean, entirely apart from having no question mark in your elaboration of it, you're not even asking anything in particular; I can't answer a question I can't even understand. Ask something concrete and maybe you'll have better luck. < 1318761027 534814 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net NICK :Taneb|hovercraft < 1318761064 407820 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am... very surprised that you can't answer that question. < 1318761085 252527 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exciting. < 1318761086 652473 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and am currently at a lose on how to phrase it more conretely. < 1318761090 172070 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*loss < 1318761098 640106 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*concretely < 1318761099 309144 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1318761115 845378 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go back to the music collection thing. That was a coherent question. < 1318761131 904372 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't collect music, music needs to run free < 1318761212 708413 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, okay. you have a music collection. it exists as track structures or whatever. typically speaking when you collect music you want this data to exist indepently of any one program (or, rather, most of the programs that use it) I am wondering, how does an arbitrary program get access to this data. < 1318761261 991623 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, brings up issues of security, "what is a program?", etc. I really don't know enough about this system to ask questions as concretely as you most likely want. I was kind of hoping you would just explain how that facet of it works. < 1318761268 494043 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :By being passed a reference to it. < 1318761273 296162 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like everything a program needs. < 1318761285 91293 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318761344 527168 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that would have totally worked as an answer to "how do programs share data?" < 1318761355 468517 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you ever asked that. < 1318761369 777318 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :... -_- < 1318761414 516245 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm done now. you win. I won't be bothering you anymore. < 1318761424 644478 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :mission accomplished. < 1318761432 249698 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yess, finally I have won this battle that I was never having < 1318761452 899082 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider maybe dropping the battle rhetoric for once and that instead maybe you might have been unclear. < 1318761456 375927 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It gets tiring. < 1318761462 639622 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no not a battle. it seems as though you are being intentionally difficult so that I'll stop asking you all these questions. < 1318761478 24997 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I, have not, at any point, tried to argue anything. < 1318761486 564090 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :except maybe at the beginning < 1318761489 510841 :Taneb|hovercraft!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net NICK :Ngevd < 1318761500 675172 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :While I had my breakfast, a thought occured < 1318761512 879096 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shocking! < 1318761518 979571 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine a probably fictional programming language called Colorado < 1318761523 605028 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Either I'm being intentionally difficult, or you just won't challenge your preconceptions; among them that your questions are clear. < 1318761528 242511 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The name isn't important, but anyway < 1318761553 693230 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, Colorado has two compilers, Denver and Aspen < 1318761575 603045 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somebody writes a text editor in Colorado < 1318761602 86106 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :When compiled by Denver, it's 2 KB < 1318761610 978591 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :When compiled by Aspen, it's 3 KB < 1318761634 964534 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the Aspen-compiled version runs quicker < 1318761637 537290 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I've challenged plenty of preconceptions throughout the course of this conversation. I'll give you one: it doesn't make sense to have all data orthogonally persistent. < 1318761642 546661 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is the better compiler? < 1318761665 364393 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh dear, are you arguing about @? < 1318761666 483800 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: Aspen. < 1318761670 901273 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't argue about @. < 1318761672 642805 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: not /trying/ to argue. :P < 1318761673 960386 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no point. < 1318761688 471975 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, now somebody else writes a different program < 1318761692 812134 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: No, CakeProphet just thinks he's being revolutionary by bringing up things that were solved a few decades ago and then blaming his confusing questions on me. < 1318761693 560979 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say, an image viewer < 1318761696 691714 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's over now. < 1318761701 617211 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am really just trying to ask questions, but apparently am not being concrete enough. probably because I don't know anything about it. < 1318761710 611421 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I'm trying to be revolutionary (....?) < 1318761720 325692 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The version of this compiled by Denver runs quicker than the version compiled by Aspen < 1318761754 19613 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there much point for a Colorado programmer to try both compilers for every program he/she writes? < 1318761766 562471 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. (Are these questions meant to be difficult?) < 1318761772 292436 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really < 1318761786 24025 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're meant to be ones I don't know the answer to < 1318761794 903509 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it doesn't go too slowly, who cares? < 1318761878 810411 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I would like to continue, but it appears that our conversations tend to break down easily. < 1318761888 315452 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I would like to know more about this system. < 1318761895 199853 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. About what? < 1318761937 967482 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: how would a human pass a reference to a program. < 1318761988 272472 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably automatically in this case. But the UI is not one of the most fleshed-out parts of @. (OK, it has had a lot of thinking done to it, but it's mostly in disparate fragments right now.) < 1318761991 167310 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the object-capability model, anyway. < 1318762044 926262 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I apologize for phrasing my questions in ways that I'm accustomed to thinking about them. it's not intended to be argumentative. < 1318762053 747079 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say anything. < 1318762098 259954 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was attempting to resolve some unresolved misunderstandings. nevermind. no need, I guess? < 1318762233 836033 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do you forsee it making sense to interact with this system via a terminal with line-based commands, perhaps? < 1318762319 171422 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The @ UI is really not something I can make even vaguely concrete statements about. But it is likely to be more linguistic than WIMP, and I have little interest in supporting the lower-resolution (some only supporting a limited resolution of fixed-width glyphs, often erroneously called "text" modes) graphics modes. < 1318762336 683804 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do see how you could liberate the dependence on a filesystem by having long-running programs that manage specific kinds of data for you. < 1318762346 358784 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"long-running" being a bit misleading. < 1318762370 879669 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :just sort of existing, forever, to be invoked. < 1318762371 43305 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no real program involved in maintaining a set of trakcs. < 1318762373 555118 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tracks. < 1318762387 738756 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But a set of course contains code in some sense, since you can perform operations on a set. < 1318762426 551557 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah so these structures you refer to are themselves programs, and not merely inactive data. There is no distinction here. < 1318762462 578410 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...is that... too vague? < 1318762510 6971 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weeeell, I think words like active vs. inactive are way too emotionally charged to be useful for much. < 1318762519 421833 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case, it's just... a set. < 1318762523 726924 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.. don't think of them as such, but okay. < 1318762569 954534 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's hard to define "active". < 1318762580 849400 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay perhaps a better question. How do you define a structure? < 1318762607 857045 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :An object; entity; value; call it what you will. Imagine a value in . < 1318762613 185391 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay. < 1318762631 935083 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not Perl though. < 1318762637 101673 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but these entities are universally accepted by any program, so there is some sort of concrete implementation involved. < 1318762642 311683 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1318762645 239339 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not universally < 1318762646 807705 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or any program < 1318762650 705153 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but accepted by programs. :P < 1318762660 305244 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the @ system is based on a single object model. < 1318762692 213145 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/implementation/representation/ so yeah that answers that. < 1318762695 260650 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of. < 1318762701 372113 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very clear on how it works though < 1318762710 445544 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My favorite programming language has no values, you insensitive clod! < 1318762727 794979 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Just imagine a single language runtime underpinning the whole system; that's the easiest way to understand it. < 1318762731 524599 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not entirely accurate, but close. < 1318762736 934308 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that's what I imagined. < 1318762744 645390 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Smalltalk is a good starting point.) < 1318762766 891224 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so would you say it's... object-oriented? minus the connotations. < 1318762780 623687 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does it mean minus the connotations? Sincere question. < 1318762796 839059 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in like... object-oriented but with a sensible model. < 1318762807 256328 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not invoking images of Java... < 1318762808 734172 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1318762814 263025 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If Smalltalk is a good starting point, then it is VERY object-oriented < 1318762826 363242 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Probably not in any way you're thinking of, no. < 1318762832 727593 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe also a bit of yes. But no. But yes. < 1318762835 442884 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But no, really, no. < 1318762838 432457 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but very much like smalltalk? < 1318762839 515074 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is primarily functional. < 1318762840 336348 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1318762844 520953 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay. < 1318762845 32963 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said Smalltalk was a good starting point. < 1318762849 667842 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unix etc. are just that much further off. < 1318762857 263018 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes these questions are all an attempt to get more details out of what you mean by that. :P < 1318762867 761402 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Object-oriented Haskell! :P < 1318762882 5955 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do like the idea of all data being represented as code-stuffs. < 1318762900 305931 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Church encoding. < 1318762902 639205 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1318762914 274398 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe with some primitive notion of data underneath. < 1318762940 944196 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Church encoding doesn't buy you much. < 1318762951 814816 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right I don't mean strictly Church encoding. < 1318762962 791018 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fold-based representation isn't particularly desirable, and anyway it's literally isomorphic to just using constructor bits as God intended and separating data out properly. < 1318762971 976414 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I am one of the few people who like Unity, should I upgrade Ubuntu? < 1318762978 531394 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you have a set and the set is represented by the code that controls it. < 1318762987 167302 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's almost like OO.... < 1318762988 907993 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a way. < 1318762994 130680 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: What control? < 1318762996 340579 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no control. < 1318763007 326272 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sets are just set; abstract objects with a defined set of operations. < 1318763011 243389 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/set/sets/ < 1318763013 53452 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If I am one of the few people who like Unity, should I _?" "No."; "If _, should I upgrade Ubuntu?" "No." < 1318763015 478582 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's... what I meant. < 1318763016 515829 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I can tell. < 1318763105 91825 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so internally you're passing around something akin to Haskell constructors or C structs, with associated operations? < 1318763113 125133 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, conversation killer < 1318763121 29755 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, referring to. < 1318763129 475114 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: The low-level details are unlikely to aid in understanding here; they're essentially interchangable. < 1318763144 364949 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The operators wouldn't be passed around with the data itself; that's simply wasteful. < 1318763146 54172 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No wait, I lag < 1318763161 195897 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a tad annoyin < 1318763161 816083 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :g < 1318763166 839336 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have two sets, you don't want to pass the set operations twice. < 1318763188 146602 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well right. I didn't really mean that you pass around the operations. < 1318763249 274342 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in much the same way that you wouldn't actually pass the data, merely references. < 1318763423 730054 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1318763428 268997 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so regarding the music tracks and not having a daemon program to manage them. How do you keep a music collection from being garbage collected? < 1318763470 246824 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :By holding a reference to it. < 1318763493 911454 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably in whatever roughly constitutes the system's idea of you. < 1318763527 827348 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so there will never be a point where no program references the music, unless you want it to go away. < 1318763599 643721 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because many programs don't really quit. < 1318763621 227733 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's more data than program here. < 1318763690 886458 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what you mean by that. < 1318763726 236962 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's data holding the references. < 1318763745 561947 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, but then said data is then being referenced by a program, right? < 1318763769 204445 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise it wouldn't exist < 1318763784 653789 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or will die swiftly. < 1318763800 878469 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the hands of the mighty garbage collector. < 1318763852 89617 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no concept of program. < 1318763867 536042 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I..... okay. < 1318763976 513488 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you write for @ that makes things happen? for want of better terminology. < 1318764024 449121 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Code. < 1318764033 234408 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not programs. < 1318764056 515125 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1318764059 873023 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps my confusion is evident. < 1318764082 7839 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, it doesn't divide code into little packages called 'programs'. < 1318764105 81783 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe my confusion is such a permanent force of nature that it's simply taken for granted at this point. < 1318764117 801384 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :like water. < 1318764128 361886 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's like... one giant meta-program? < 1318764194 20405 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume it just generalized code to data, and so the structure of the data somewhat determines what is executed. < 1318764211 213208 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm probably wrong. < 1318764340 775559 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not that complicated. < 1318764362 498176 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but the idea is completely foreign to me, and little information about it has been given. < 1318764364 316317 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a typical modern OS, you have executable files, and these are what most of us mean by 'program'. < 1318764379 792155 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I meant it in a more abstract sense. but yes, that's how such a thing is represented. < 1318764401 658171 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even interpreted languages package code into files. < 1318764406 540450 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1318764422 413522 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In @, code doesn't exist in files, so there's no subdivision imposed. < 1318764445 828433 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you would still write..... programs right? bits of code, I guess. < 1318764512 749930 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the subdivision could easily exist if you wanted it to, if you subdivided programs into blocks of memory. < 1318764535 930273 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, I guess you don't want that subdivision? you have a different model? < 1318764577 684130 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There *is* no subdivision, unless you explicitly create one. < 1318764587 628035 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's... what I said, basically. < 1318764608 308090 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what are you failing to understand? < 1318764613 651452 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :how that works. < 1318764617 883540 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice. < 1318764633 75890 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does the code get executed. < 1318764650 972219 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :when does it start. < 1318764652 597110 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A function in it gets called by already-running code. < 1318764718 168561 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so @ isn't really an operating system. < 1318764741 191629 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's actually a chocolate bar. < 1318764748 525296 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's orthogonal persistence and an object model. < 1318764768 170911 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unix isn't an operating system; it's just a task switcher and a hierarchical store. < 1318764905 61318 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a bunch of syscalls. < 1318764908 637861 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :unix does provide an abstraction for subdividing segments of code from one another though. i.e. there are processes, and executable files. I assume to have any kind of semblance of order you would need a system that does something like that (but NOT the same thing. I am trying to challenge my preconceived notions here) < 1318764928 200657 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, we all need arbitrary distinctions to stay sane. < 1318764942 317210 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is inconceivable that code could be well-contained enough that a single system could interoperate as a whole. < 1318764959 324413 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :We demand impenetrable barriers that require obtuse duplicate mechanisms (IPC, anyone?) to work around. < 1318764973 422714 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's completely conceivable, you just haven't told me what that system is yet. < 1318765001 161386 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"System" refers to @ there. < 1318765016 99380 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I know @ is just a monolith with no way to place your own code into that system. < 1318765045 40120 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You execute code. That's what users do. < 1318765046 527544 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's just this ephemeral thing called @ and can somehow interoperate as a whole but that's all I know. < 1318765080 726499 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, this is the state known as "not knowing @". < 1318765087 551523 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :correct. < 1318765093 695016 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is horrible. < 1318765119 618516 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :can I somehow learn about @ without requiring extensive knowledge of it already to ask the right questions? < 1318765131 218907 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :to get the right answers < 1318765171 797787 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes: Ask questions without attaching your presumptions of the answers to them, and they'll be much easier to answer. < 1318765186 948605 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can one develop programs using @? < 1318765197 562910 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: no such things < 1318765203 858704 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't attach preconceived notions. < 1318765204 5462 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: One does not. < 1318765211 511167 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the equivalent thereof < 1318765216 766238 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no equivalent < 1318765217 497644 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I see you're uninterested in learning. < 1318765223 869199 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :again a preconceived notion. < 1318765245 920957 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What features will @ have that an end-user would like to know about? < 1318765268 913200 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: No Unity support. < 1318765283 459443 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text editor? < 1318765285 912735 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Image editor? < 1318765288 627575 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Music player? < 1318765291 184724 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Web browser? < 1318765300 909157 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: uninterested in having my questions dismissed because they're not phrased in the language of a system I know nothing about. < 1318765313 275628 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brain editor < 1318765323 848025 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: interested in learning, yes. of course. < 1318765337 451562 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: One could compose an obsolete string type, I suppose, sure. Not sure why you would. Image editing I don't have any personal plans to write but it would be perfectly possible and more natural than most such systems. But really, those are all applications, so to speak; @ is very much document-centric. < 1318765368 465415 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How will documents be created then? < 1318765371 565745 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in what format? < 1318765383 265487 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Up to you. < 1318765398 541227 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: how do I decide. < 1318765402 873114 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What sort of tools will be available for document creation? < 1318765408 348164 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But really, my focus is not on what the user-facing end is at this point. I'm not going to waste my time thinking about something that's many years off. < 1318765418 117227 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough < 1318765423 869506 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cannot just design this mythical perfect system with a bunch of applications and expect it to come true; there are hard problems to be solved at the lower layers. < 1318765491 394563 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: is subdividing and controlling units of code a problem that as been solved or something that you don't even intend to consider a problem? < 1318765507 595653 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or somewhere inbetween? < 1318765513 894028 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Module systems are a well-researched field. < 1318765521 684196 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : How will documents be created then? < 1318765521 915653 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : And in what format? < 1318765537 838870 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're arbitrary formatting objects. < 1318765602 215015 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there /is/ no format: after all, formats only exist because we need to serialise the in-memory representation of a document onto a disk. < 1318765673 350878 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am mostly confused about issues of multitasking and control flow. How data is represented and controlled makes sense now, for the most part. < 1318765712 873111 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :76% [14 libstdc++6-4.3-dev 22389/1420kB 1%] 2073kB/s 3s < 1318765713 744100 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww ye < 1318765724 955768 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unfortunately that's my server getting dem speeds.) < 1318766354 26342 :Ngevd!~Taneb@host-84-13-84-233.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1318766947 514219 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1318768028 860698 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 , Skype: patashu0 . < 1318768820 698503 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1318768995 854850 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE89C22.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318769901 433860 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318770057 700873 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1318770118 642663 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE89C22.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318770143 912631 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jell-O! < 1318770499 641477 :yiyus!~124271242@je.je.je QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1318770886 34393 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :�lk�� uskoko itse�nne viisaampia valheita < 1318770898 888357 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1318770920 268765 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know elliott you are a real person < 1318770926 189746 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1318770973 70075 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know you like to think that but you're just another human < 1318770989 486014 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :anti-solipsism would be weird < 1318771000 963957 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i'm actually a rat. < 1318771002 726344 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think we've discussed that here < 1318771013 229282 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, not as weird as solipsist missionaries < 1318771017 752553 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we've discussed solipsi... right < 1318771018 254988 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those < 1318771028 126829 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially those < 1318771041 772686 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :rejoice! only you exist! < 1318771055 403661 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that annoying neighbor is just an illusion! < 1318771076 407886 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly, an annoyingly persistent one. < 1318771102 110099 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: excuse me < 1318771102 604740 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I < 1318771103 589824 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :invented < 1318771104 17888 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :those < 1318771133 716647 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still can't figure out if they'd convince others that they didn't exist or that only they existed. < 1318771152 767204 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: probably there'd be some terrible schism < 1318771186 104471 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Only I exist!" "No, only _you_ exist!" wait, what. < 1318771220 48816 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1318771220 285016 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thought of there being and afterlife (more like betweenlife) where you get scored and use your points to buy your next life is so cool i have started to somewhat believe that < 1318771225 13364 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*an < 1318771262 869413 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you like distribute stats < 1318771271 601069 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: that sounds like my worst nightmare. < 1318771282 615132 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose you need a shitload of points to buy memories of your previous lives < 1318771299 983486 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah have fun as a cockroach < 1318771305 632184 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :mwahaha < 1318771307 600343 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm so mean < 1318771314 775926 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was that what you meant < 1318771321 529098 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no that sounds great i'd be like ok let's try being an idiot this time (that is what happened this time around) < 1318771351 311921 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_with_%22-gate%22_suffix < 1318771355 915588 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well it's clearly time for the cockroaches to RULE < 1318771372 889309 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Utegate – A June 2009 political incident around the lending of a utility vehicle ("ute") to Australian Labor Prime Minister Kevin Rudd by car dealer John Grant, and subsequent allegations of improper favorable treatment of Grant by the Treasury department.[74] < 1318771431 194781 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, good old K-Rudd < 1318771602 176674 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why people can't decide whether it's about environment or genetics, it's about *soul* genetics and *soul* environment from your past lives (yeah, there's sex in betweenlife. a fuckload of it.) < 1318771607 293945 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fajitagate – In November 2002, three off-duty San Francisco police officers allegedly assaulted two civilians over a bag of steak fajitas (which were mistaken as drugs), leading to the retirement of the chief of police and the firing of his successor.[53] < 1318771610 207899 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fajitagate < 1318771633 704506 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Toiletgate < 1318771635 233089 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sexy Photo Gate – The 2008 scandal in Hong Kong concerning illegal distribution over the Internet of intimate and private photographs of actor/singer Edison Chen with various notable celebrities, destroying the showbiz careers of all those involved.[27] < 1318771635 396744 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU'RE NOT EVEN TRYING < 1318771644 883399 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT'S JUST TWO WORDS PLUS "GATE" THEY AREN'T EVEN MUSHED TOGETHER < 1318771716 192901 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nordre Gate < 1318771716 339674 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe someone should investigate this gate conspiracy. of course we all know the name of the scandal that would lead to. < 1318771779 149750 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gategate (2) < 1318771781 648023 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :investigate < 1318771787 260932 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was going for #2 < 1318771801 216730 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :investigate is definitely better it is less obvious < 1318771805 454629 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1318771810 542453 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why i was going for it < 1318771817 852412 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that was first here < 1318771823 503002 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :interrogate < 1318771859 527779 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ? < 1318771864 108306 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: < 1318771864 370728 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : investigate < 1318771864 547849 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Gategate (2) < 1318771866 40576 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1318771867 16123 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what it looked like here < 1318771873 912420 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :got it just after asking < 1318771901 522129 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so hey oklopol how is your ... theses ... doings < 1318771931 125121 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's dropped it, zzo38 has convinced him to switch to astrology < 1318771949 930575 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't even started my phd yet :( but planning to start after the exams next week, i think i know my topic now at least < 1318771980 571101 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG I just got a chocolate pope hat BEST DAY EVER < 1318771986 823971 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION eats it.
< 1318772006 221039 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's on the role of saturn in horoscopes. it's being done completely wrong nowadays. < 1318772008 72508 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : [...] (yeah, there's sex in betweenlife. a fuckload of it.) <-- i am starting to warm to this idea < 1318772038 141787 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should probably write a book about it < 1318772063 490342 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, really? That line turned me off the idea a lot < 1318772069 152797 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yeah a book about ring theory < 1318772075 470894 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: PRUDE < 1318772080 638830 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: ? < 1318772106 504126 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Betweenlife; < 1318772109 142831 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*? < 1318772124 336221 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: don't worry, people will handle your vagina much more gently in the betweenlife < 1318772125 422939 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh dear, oklopol met Ngevd. I hope they never shake hands. < 1318772127 597643 :MSleep!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318772131 830625 :MSleep!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net NICK :MDude < 1318772173 667032 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Ngevd is taneb hth < 1318772191 634991 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Phantom_Hoover eats it. <-- BUT BUT how can you then use it in a plot to get the _real_ pope hat? < 1318772193 26807 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hehe, can you come up with an astrology version of "cantor type subshifts in the besicovitch and weyl topologies" < 1318772195 497521 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1318772210 947929 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, curses! < 1318772213 90387 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i had a hunch that might be it < 1318772216 609967 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, yes. < 1318772297 616866 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: not on the spot, no < 1318772339 494700 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :me neither :/ < 1318772351 446340 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: what was that a yes to, taneb? < 1318772404 469517 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, to Cantor type subshifts in the Besicovitch and Weyl topologies. < 1318772512 726976 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1318772787 10938 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you told me oerjan *can* come up with one? < 1318772792 635800 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1318772820 962808 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I believe in oerjan. < 1318772874 989 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :When did I say yes? < 1318772915 454493 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have been saying 'yes' your whole life; you have yet to realise. < 1318772928 535178 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: you just misparsed my inparsible sentence. < 1318772950 224710 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, maybe that's why you don't like sex < 1318772956 649172 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean what ph said < 1318772982 132209 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should stop picking on you and use elliott instead, he deserves it more < 1318772991 977428 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: fuck you although i do kind of like you as a person < 1318773020 267648 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1318773027 58583 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am pretty terrible yeah < 1318773037 741728 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The worst. < 1318773055 216921 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, what about elliott's eviller triplet, Facekicker McHird? < 1318773083 845178 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i would certainly fuck him him too if he came here. < 1318773086 70303 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(From Cursebacon.) < 1318773131 854194 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: What none of you realise is that I... am..... the Facekicker......... < 1318773137 688974 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just adopted the other Elliott's identity. < 1318773161 167777 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, my theory is that Facekicker is future you sent back in time with neutrinos. < 1318773174 608338 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh yeah, are you gonna ragequit reality when it turns out ftl is possible < 1318773178 318738 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i had a brother who is the future. < 1318773184 415193 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I realise oklopol may find this offensive. < 1318773215 104296 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-246-98.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318773227 256587 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: i have no problem with whole futures being sent back, just objects from the future < 1318773233 345108 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well at least not a priori < 1318773244 361073 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it i suppose that's just as bad < 1318773247 642127 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-216-135.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1318773257 439245 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you heard the neutrino thing right < 1318773261 617670 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1318773269 47837 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :come on, i want some oklopol time travel rage < 1318773280 962612 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i called my dad and told him his crazy physicist friend was right all along < 1318773298 764500 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDD < 1318773306 388651 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the sine of an angle unitless? < 1318773314 786971 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: btw are there any updates on that neutrino thing < 1318773324 978058 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that I know of. < 1318773332 873331 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, yes, because angles are unitless. < 1318773343 692482 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: sorry, i'm reserving my rage for more concrete things nowadays, trying to steer clear of religion and time travel < 1318773371 60377 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd, come on, you've heard of radians. < 1318773378 444853 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you like to think of a degree as a unit < 1318773396 321111 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I count the radian as a unit of angle < 1318773406 63129 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: radians are not a unit < 1318773431 750098 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So they aren't < 1318773433 363929 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh < 1318773435 279500 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, just like pointers should be thought of as just integers you can add and multiply with each other < 1318773437 518359 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not know that < 1318773437 983754 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :who needs types < 1318773460 333169 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i realise you're being sarcastic but how are radians a unit < 1318773466 127698 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah they aren't a unit in the physical sense < 1318773466 294373 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But is the sine of a right angle the same no matter how you measure the right angle? < 1318773529 738872 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, if you use a metric ruler it's 0.9 off < 1318773532 106578 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: not in the physical sense, but you should really think of the radians as points on an isomorphic copy of R/2*pi*Z, not as regular reals. < 1318773596 529584 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no updates but a constant stream of people insulting the scientists' intelligence by claiming the error is something stupidly obvious to anyone with a physics degree, see http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/lc0vv/fasterthanlight_neutrino_puzzle_claimed_solved_by/?limit=500 < 1318773611 153812 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you mean like ais? :D < 1318773621 215296 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...maybe. < 1318773650 300110 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone who thinks they haven't _properly considered the effects of relativity_... < 1318773658 182615 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1318773705 610368 :invariable!~root@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1318773707 678815 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: usually the sine is defined using radians, the degree circle thingie should be thought of as the constant 2pi/360 and radians shouldn't be given a unit, although you might wanna put (rad) after your number to avoid confusion < 1318773727 304015 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: so hey remember the Cube < 1318773730 311972 :invariable!~root@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Client Quit < 1318773732 641943 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just trying to work out which one python used < 1318773733 696517 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and by degree circle thingie i mean that funny little circle hovering in the air for fun < 1318773738 152477 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :radians < 1318773739 677409 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh PH < 1318773740 38101 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :PH < 1318773740 682914 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit < 1318773741 323389 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turns out it's radios < 1318773741 834027 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :he'll be back < 1318773743 809894 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :to link oklopol to the thing < 1318773745 406865 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ans < 1318773793 525468 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: i'd say sines are unitless even if you don't consider the angles to be < 1318773799 225408 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's always radians, since all the math computer people use without understanding them when writing libraries works in radians, so you'd have to convert back and forth otherwise < 1318773809 113810 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: remember the cube < 1318773814 933495 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318773822 630903 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brilliant, that's that sorted < 1318773832 40030 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: link oklopol to the gravity thing, he saw it but didn't see the multi-planet options < 1318773839 754987 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :all them math people use without understanding them. so i suppose math is the plural and maths is the singular < 1318773842 686507 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.matthen.com/javascript/gravity.html < 1318773849 330824 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: sure < 1318773858 799673 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i'm bringing that shit back < 1318773859 683949 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i promise to remember it < 1318773862 820448 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also yeah there's the gravity link < 1318773864 794123 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :click it < 1318773866 278079 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :enjpoy < 1318773874 204179 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck you elliott, i click whatever i want < 1318773878 347601 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance that link < 1318773954 437705 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i put two planets in there and hit the sun after two tounds < 1318773956 798112 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :rounds < 1318773963 416437 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: congratulations < 1318774004 255486 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i'm congratulating myself like an asshole on meth for being right earlier < 1318774016 360474 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK so I suggest anyone who says their mind is blown after learning anything be shot on sight. < 1318774042 234380 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: how were you right < 1318774070 9577 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: how are orbits stable if i keep hitting the planets & sun? < 1318774080 830853 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: because the planets and sun are tiny and your ship is fucking huge in this? < 1318774093 289829 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1318774097 468351 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not my fault you can't establish an orbit < 1318774103 510317 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think Phantom_Hoover is quite good at it < 1318774114 32237 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am the master of Hohmann transfers. < 1318774132 435464 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not saying i can't establish an orbit, i'm saying orbits don't seem to be very stable < 1318774135 504468 :Taneb!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318774143 477241 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you say that if you haven't established one < 1318774175 882252 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you've done stable orbits with it right < 1318774176 290211 :Taneb!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1318774188 946875 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1318774196 197921 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :by "orbits aren't stable" i don't actually mean a stable orbit isn't stable. i mean if you put shit in the simulator, they do not form nice orbits < 1318774203 133219 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there are many of them < 1318774207 568585 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like in real life, then? < 1318774210 640280 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that happen in real life < 1318774211 131867 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1318774235 259517 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean you did basically start off saying that two-dee newtonian gravity wouldn't work well at all but it seems to be as working as well as these things work :P < 1318774249 366321 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't care about real life, but yes, it's possible 3d works just as bad, i haven't tried. < 1318774255 855177 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, incidentally, do you know of any undecidable/turing-equivalent problems in graph theory? < 1318774276 800294 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well rewriting problems ofv < 1318774279 295277 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ofc < 1318774291 350158 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, sorry, add 'colouring' in there. < 1318774333 897669 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what do you mean seems to work as well as these things work? i don't care about realism, i care about getting interesting orbits < 1318774347 446738 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well i mean < 1318774351 730114 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it just me, or is WP down? < 1318774354 718577 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: what is your standard for interesting orbits if nothing that exists < 1318774363 76571 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1318774367 229087 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: just you (isup.me) < 1318774428 380508 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that things often eventually start going around each other in stable ellipsoids from a random initial config? < 1318774451 735253 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, that happens in the sim. < 1318774465 718193 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things either get ejected or form stable orbits. < 1318774510 382867 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah maybe, i suppose with a huge amount of objects this would be nice enough < 1318774538 976032 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a big thing and a small thing, they will usually be pretty stable at least < 1318774544 919440 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, just look at the 4-star system. < 1318774553 680205 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have multiple big things, they start a fight < 1318774576 81410 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: i'm looking at that right now, one of the four starts flew off and hit my ship < 1318774588 650462 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :after i pressed a key for like a millisecond < 1318774595 768780 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaand i'm off to space < 1318774633 456446 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1318774637 955088 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah i dunno how this would work if you have enough objects that you can afford most of them hitting each other < 1318774643 882647 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps really neatly < 1318774699 30827 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe, nice spaghetti these guys are drawing < 1318774758 121677 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you had a billion objects...... < 1318774779 161008 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i think i'm sticking with my idea of having a concept of an orbit in the actual physics. if only because i don't want to use existing ones because this universe kind of sucks ass. < 1318774953 459648 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :really i want something like minecraft with polygons and space travel < 1318774975 52969 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and prolly 2d because 3d just feels so old-fashioned and dull < 1318775052 327202 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hexagons might work nicely tho as a primitive shape < 1318775204 483017 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe that doesn't really integrate into the whole gluing shit together optimization < 1318777041 46214 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-57.yok.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1318777439 847649 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-249-182.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318777465 630942 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-246-98.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1318778451 764689 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1318778461 455703 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1318778759 851781 :katak!~ok@39.213.222.109 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318779259 599126 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1318779264 540548 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318779546 327078 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1318779597 861089 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318780031 46618 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com QUIT : < 1318780266 829543 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1318780371 980386 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi katak < 1318780373 294619 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? welcome < 1318780376 916237 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page < 1318780512 403427 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1318780553 251024 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :... and hello again < 1318780581 819332 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1318780678 317465 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318782229 401657 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318782398 912425 :tiffany!~kawaii@fl-76-3-21-30.dhcp.embarqhsd.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318782469 410864 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1318782518 941528 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you add up all positive integers will you get -1/12 as the answer? < 1318782526 992164 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1318782542 368397 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :... unless you round it < 1318782552 454186 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zeta regularisation is the best thing. < 1318782681 625170 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you explain how? I do not understand how. I can understand how you can get -1/3 if you add $2^0+2^2+2^4+2^6+2^8+2^10+2^12$ and so on; I have done this calculation myself in various ways and have always gotten the answer -1/3 if you add 2 to power of even natural numbers infinite series. < 1318782740 636082 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf, I thought it was a joke < 1318782742 193544 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(One way is to write the answer in binary notation, from which it can easily be seen that $3x+1=0$ if $x$ is the answer) < 1318782751 5297 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Z(s) = sum n=1 to inf n^-s < 1318782758 410968 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you can make a sum look like the RHS, you can calculate it with the LHS :-) < 1318782766 110127 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's actually used seriously in some part of string theory, IIRC. < 1318782772 318382 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It certainly gives very pretty results. < 1318782812 910949 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, 1 + 1 + 1 + ... = -1/2 :-) < 1318782847 546089 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the infinite products too: prod n=1 to inf, n = sqrt 2pi. < 1318783507 88711 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will continue to make the Super ASCII MZX Town (Part II) game. You can tell me ideas if you want to! Like Part I, it is full CP437, it has BIG_MONSTER, and you need all the purple keys. But this one has magic keycards; it has the Star Trek convention; MEDIUM_SIZE_MONSTER ask you for the book, the hat, the clock, and a copy of this game on VHS; there is a secret basement in the library; etc < 1318783763 535320 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318783779 999608 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like the Part I, it has a lot of scrolls, and finite resources (money, ammunition, health, keys, multimeter, etc) < 1318783781 710615 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :...? < 1318783788 534204 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1318783796 632131 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, World! < 1318783798 860150 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hiya :) < 1318783989 58193 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the shelf in the library is an optical disc, it is a CD on one side and a DVD on the other side. It contains a game titled "Sub EBCDIC ZZT Village", which claims to be similar to the present game, and contains a reference to an isomorphic but non-existent game. In addition, the game on that disc is licensed under the GNU GPL version 42. < 1318784000 741225 :katak!~ok@39.213.222.109 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318784017 754675 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MYSTERIOUS < 1318784027 468044 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The entire Super ASCII MZX Town series is public domain.) < 1318784040 121692 :katak!~ok@39.213.222.109 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318784174 669958 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there such things as optical discs that are a CD on one side and a DVD on the other side? < 1318784203 540236 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why not < 1318784207 627158 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yep < 1318784210 299189 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, top side and bottom side? < 1318784217 475023 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Left side and right side would be tricky < 1318784230 451865 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ngevd: Yes I mean top side and bottom side < 1318784240 263453 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's a thing < 1318784302 31079 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here on a CD is “left” anyway :) < 1318784305 159608 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Here/Where/ < 1318784314 309079 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That-away. < 1318785090 519019 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 QUIT :Quit: Goodbye < 1318785285 771184 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any admins here now? < 1318785372 286064 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so; ais523 reads all wiki edits, though < 1318786286 962621 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I'll admit that screen sharing's change from 10.5/6 -> 10.7 is a huge improvement. It's very nearly as useful as Xvnc now. < 1318786589 120407 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318786623 10153 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1318786653 253608 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to make the spells in Icosahedral RPG to form a category. < 1318786698 230815 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As in, mathematical category theory) < 1318786707 102342 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what that would involve < 1318786774 321201 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hang on, brb < 1318786776 467255 :Ngevd!~Taneb@2.99.90.255 QUIT :Client Quit < 1318786803 648024 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what any of this is about < 1318787291 323318 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Do you have a tool to merge two line-based pipes into another < 1318787299 133146 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that no lines end up intersecting awfully < 1318787326 248091 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope < 1318787354 149627 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: sigh < 1318787360 817395 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do YOUUUUUUUUUUU? < 1318787368 735873 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: no, i want one :) < 1318787378 203209 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nods sagely.
< 1318787388 836904 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be trivial to write in C# < 1318787399 907712 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be trivial to write in any language, just a pain < 1318787409 977935 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be fun and painless to write in C# ;-) < 1318787413 268691 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt C#'s support for select() is very good < 1318787417 882339 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be the pertinent thing to use here < 1318787463 222555 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea what select() does, but sounds like a hack. I’d just run two processes and read lines from their stdout in two separate threads < 1318787476 359117 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :... lol < 1318787483 435829 :ive!~nn@189.179.247.113 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318787488 399536 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://man.cx/select(2) < 1318787499 413753 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :threading-based IO has been dead for the last decade or so < 1318787507 431031 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least on platforms anyone actually uses for real serving. < 1318787528 503705 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :“threading-based IO”? < 1318787538 391865 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka, "I’d just run two processes and read lines from their stdout in two separate threads" < 1318787540 40778 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There’s nothing special about reading from the STDOUT of a process... nothing to do with threads < 1318787558 9388 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don’t see what relevance the threads are to the I/O < 1318787562 453251 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :two processes ~ two thread < 1318787562 799422 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1318787565 933261 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gets the popcorn.
< 1318787672 890613 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Timwi: but anyway, there's no hack about blocking until one of the given file descriptors has events available < 1318787676 182824 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's simple event notification < 1318787809 126104 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that is exactly what my solution does < 1318787833 763649 :Ngevd!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318787842 864346 :Ngevd!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, my IRC client isn't working < 1318787844 399620 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there were no processes meant to be involved anyway < 1318787851 587605 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just needs to take the names of two pipes and output to stdout < 1318787854 130686 :Ngevd!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am using webchat < 1318787855 116557 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which can then be redirected to another pipe) < 1318787858 380876 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. Then I don’t know what a line pipe is :) < 1318787863 390167 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :line pipe? < 1318787876 471702 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want to merge two http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Named_pipe s on a line-based level < 1318787904 30946 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNTESTED: http://pastebin.info/?dl=2337 < 1318787924 808912 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assumes the existence of a “commandLines” list/array/enumerable) < 1318787950 244435 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1318787965 863850 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has never used asynchronous IO before
< 1318787976 709707 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how painful is it? < 1318787982 651001 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Timwi: I think there's a race condition there < 1318788001 210978 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hmm, no < 1318788006 974874 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be able to use Scala reset/shift < 1318788032 346668 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno how much it'll help. < 1318788037 132055 :Ngevd!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uniquode is going to be interesting when it gets to... < 1318788043 793796 :Ngevd!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anywhere, really < 1318788070 518545 :Ngevd!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to say "arrows" < 1318788094 404700 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There’s almost nothing about Unicode that is /not/ interesting to some degree :) < 1318788102 589378 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uniquode = Unicode? < 1318788106 140829 :Ngevd!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1318788117 374435 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh :) Why is everyone speaking in code today? :) < 1318788127 457494 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Uniquode < 1318788136 615270 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh :) < 1318788165 613380 :Ngevd!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uniquode ≈ UniCode < 1318788181 637805 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting idea! < 1318788187 749223 :Ngevd!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's in that article has already been completely destroyed < 1318788199 747698 :Ngevd!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And elliott had the idea first < 1318788219 979115 :Ngevd!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/UniCode < 1318788220 966872 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well it’s kind of ironic you should mention Uniquode then, because I’m currently trying to write 99 bottles in Sclipting < 1318788266 879863 :Ngevd!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That chinese golf one? < 1318788270 499000 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1318788283 467162 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just added a reverse for loop instruction for this :) < 1318788454 677843 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Nothing wrong with thread-based I/O, FSVO "thread"! < 1318788467 457167 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Pretty sure .NET's threads are heavyweight. < 1318788479 659058 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't Windows have lightweight "fibres" of some sort? < 1318788481 674130 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, and there’s a whole whooping two of them < 1318788482 658401 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318788497 178983 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I believe so.] < 1318788499 813625 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/]// < 1318788500 470859 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Botherations < 1318788509 17129 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's not for .NET, though, maybe? < 1318788512 268661 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't know.
< 1318788517 976792 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, we should form a UNICODE BASED ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE CONSORTIUM! < 1318788520 821617 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wouldn't surprise me. < 1318788538 660403 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would you use .NET when you can use Ruby for everything?! < 1318788554 203434 :Ngevd!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1318788561 827111 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the language of the future. < 1318788563 486926 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ruby .NET < 1318788568 8627 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There I go < 1318788586 425662 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ret < 1318788592 71987 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rep ret < 1318788605 144990 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That... returns for each non-zero byte pointed to by blah blah advancing? < 1318788609 991559 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of my esolangs so far use Unicode characters < 1318788623 910968 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: gcc emits it in some cases. < 1318788629 198346 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a vague idea for one that doesn’t, but haven’t thought it through yet < 1318788631 614016 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Wait, it's real? < 1318788635 473321 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1318788643 183692 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Timwi: Technically, almost every esolang released uses Unicode characters. < 1318788647 559053 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It helps with AMD's implementation of branch prediction in some CPU. Or something. < 1318788647 986620 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Amazing. < 1318788665 204263 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I thought about how to phrase it, but decided it should be clear what I meant :-p < 1318788672 233358 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: There's also rep nop. < 1318788678 197811 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Does it actually repeat the return, though? < 1318788679 20659 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Piet doesn't < 1318788683 346358 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1318788686 299738 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Sads. < 1318788696 490975 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :By Unicode-based, in this context, I was referring to the entire of Unicode < 1318788705 310527 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly minus non-printing characters < 1318788706 838580 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should work as a multi-level out-of-function thing. :/ < 1318788719 253884 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Like "k". < 1318788796 868735 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, exactly like that. (Would "RBUS"4( ... 4kR work?) < 1318788920 178203 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like Part I or Part II (or even Part III or Part IV) of Super ASCII MZX Town? < 1318789007 619162 :katak!~ok@39.213.222.109 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1318789067 660519 :katak!~ok@182.3.32.9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318789138 366849 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thoughts on UBEPLC? < 1318789147 686739 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is UBEPLC? < 1318789161 796928 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNICODE BASED ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE CONSORTIUM < 1318789193 658111 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because a unicode based esoteric programming language is too much for one person to make < 1318789216 787976 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is wiki so you can multiple people can write it, possibly on the talk page too. < 1318789260 46769 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, there's at least two esoteric programming language work in progresses that claim to use all of unicode < 1318789286 746096 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including control characters and private use characters? < 1318789299 514442 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibles < 1318789357 31818 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :UBEPLC is a motion to merge efforts to create an actual language < 1318789388 814803 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, OK. If that is the case, then yes you should do that. < 1318789425 937074 :katak!~ok@182.3.32.9 QUIT : < 1318789500 368141 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there is esolang with Klingon writing, but is there a program that allows it to use Klingon scripts instead of using the Latin alphabet to write them? < 1318789903 217257 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does anonymous macros work? And retroactive self-modification? What does missionary commands mean? < 1318790012 584214 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think var'aq can be written in the Klingon script, possibly because it didn't make it to Unicode and the current private-use area based thing is so arbitrary. < 1318790059 225959 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could use a font that has Klingon characters in the Latin range though < 1318790061 328070 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then use an encoding other than Unicode. < 1318790094 934343 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anonymous macros don't work, retroactive self-modification is a bit like ais523's Feather, and actually does work < 1318790119 59530 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A missionary command is a command that turns something into a Church encoding of it < 1318790131 931117 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1318790253 82894 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you can use a Klingon encoding that puts the codes with the high bit set in a 8-bit encoding, and with the high bit clear uses ASCII. < 1318790423 638586 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Index of /db < 1318790423 824826 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Name Last modified Size Description < 1318790423 971536 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Parent Directory - < 1318790423 971619 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : latest.sql.bz2 15-Oct-2011 22:27 19M < 1318790423 971663 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : notlatest.sql.bz2 21-Jul-2009 22:25 9.2M < 1318790426 760547 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good file naming. < 1318790485 8928 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Judging by the dates, it's accurate too < 1318790511 780026 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :latest_REAL2_for_real_this_time.sql.bz2 < 1318790594 710474 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course the currently-in-production front page, index_latest_test7_typofix.php. < 1318790693 896849 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What should ↚ do? < 1318790713 22310 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Break a reverse implication. < 1318790736 758833 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking more along the lines of "don't turn left" < 1318790748 177181 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No lame. < 1318790766 796026 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :“don’t shoot arrows at civilians”? < 1318790770 186622 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should modify the variables such that the boolean operation of reverse implication evaluates to false given them. < 1318790793 419511 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :boolean satisfiability? :-p < 1318790872 612822 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Timwi: If it takes too long the interpreter just starts mutating logical constants at random until it works. < 1318790881 731157 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eventually it gets sick and rewrites your program to have an easier problem to solve. < 1318790915 753532 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, like wiping it :-p < 1318792815 808883 :sllide!~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1318793152 990545 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel terrible for being the last one to say anything. It makes it look like I killed the conversation < 1318793293 630317 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know the feeling < 1318793332 834926 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What could ↜ do? < 1318793983 918889 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made up esolang now. < 1318794018 472425 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: “get drunk”? < 1318794130 574878 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bruijndejx < 1318794368 565342 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1318794533 894299 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Timwi: could do < 1318794537 515277 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: interesting < 1318794541 651567 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Hello < 1318794549 176565 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo < 1318794615 968869 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : I want to make the spells in Icosahedral RPG to form a category. < 1318794628 898453 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does this look like a proper implementation of De Bruijn indexing? http://sprunge.us/FDCd < 1318794645 101487 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, that is what I wanted it to do. But I don't know the details. < 1318794666 2428 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you have one spell turning an A into a B, and another spell turning a B into a C, then doing the spells one after the other would seem to be an obvious composition < 1318794734 113219 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, I did think of that. But not all spells are transmutation. < 1318794753 910768 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although if you have a spell to split an A into a B and a C, it seems like you would get use for Arrows... < 1318794861 605623 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, it seems like making the category objects the state of prerequisites and result of spells would be a start < 1318794888 126360 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1318795100 965058 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: when you are doing both x == i and x > i tests you can also do a case compare x i of { LT -> ...; EQ -> ...; GT -> ... } < 1318795124 310781 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... < 1318795136 575473 :Madoka-Kaname!~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :What kind of operations can you do if you had, say, a fireball and a magic dart spell. < 1318795175 403765 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: OK, thank you for that information. < 1318795212 546251 :TeruFSX!~quassel@71-210-153-125.mpls.qwest.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318795215 175859 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this might be slightly more efficient, in theory, if the Ord instance is written for it < 1318795222 533492 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madoka-Kaname: Yes; not all spells would be transmutations. Some would affect instances of other spells (or itself), some would create fireballs, some might be divination, etc < 1318795244 132464 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: If the Ord instance is written for what? < 1318795267 541716 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But do you know if there is anything wrong with this program that results in incorrect answers? < 1318795268 545483 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :to implement compare directly < 1318795279 908507 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know if it matters in practice < 1318795391 253153 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or if there is anything inconsistent in my program? < 1318795405 637121 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh also it is more idiomatic to do assignLocal i v h = case h of { as assignLocal i v (Apply x y) = ...; ... etc. < 1318795572 204851 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1318795833 403829 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1318795861 912081 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i don't see anything wrong with your algorithm < 1318795922 256861 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1318796311 658493 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I put in annotations for expressions/patterns? < 1318796355 396252 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318796356 331299 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think it would help much? < 1318796431 276955 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1318796913 889645 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god, Derren Brown is doing another series. < 1318796958 343210 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-249-182.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's positively moronic. < 1318796962 411867 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Derren Brown have anything more to offer the world at this point? I think we get the idea. < 1318796969 806667 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-249-182.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow, fglrx-driver got removed from Debian testing. < 1318796972 439922 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-249-182.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still in sid. < 1318797106 284220 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i see ghc core's Expr, which is slightly similar to your Exp, contains a Note constructor for that < 1318797117 304666 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/ghc-7.2.1/CoreSyn.html#t:Expr < 1318797131 966945 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(only slightly) < 1318797247 147895 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com NICK :Timwi-Away < 1318797420 949721 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I was thinking to use a type parameter for the type of annotations (and then making the functor) < 1318797504 742634 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: even more flexible might be to make the type parameter of kind * -> * < 1318797526 835685 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...probably overkill < 1318797548 611625 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I was thinking of that too, and also thinking I don't know what to do about that and agree with you about probably overkill, too. < 1318797740 330970 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1318797793 575181 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well the question is whether you'd actually need the functor instance for anything < 1318797904 641491 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :To change annotations which might be used if one transformation requires one kind of annotations and another one uses different annotations, I suppose. < 1318797934 850154 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-63-203.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1318797935 268982 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-63-203.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Changing host < 1318797935 415556 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1318798071 715207 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm ghc core Expr does sort of support an arbitrary type if you use Expr (TaggedBndr t), although the annotation is only on binders < 1318798212 222570 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh huh they have AnnExpr further down < 1318798687 640677 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : I don't think var'aq can be written in the Klingon script, possibly because it didn't make it to Unicode and the current private-use area based thing is so arbitrary. < 1318798727 750675 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i vaguely recall way back when i read the conlang list that there was an attempt to coordinate private-use assignments for conlangs < 1318798732 874742 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't know what came of it < 1318798746 860486 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.evertype.com/standards/csur/ < 1318798762 645271 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if you don't use the Unicode, you can use a custom encoding instead < 1318798769 123634 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1318798772 450514 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :has the all important SEUSS LETTER ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ: http://www.evertype.com/standards/csur/seuss.html < 1318798962 545645 :Taneb!02635aff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.99.90.255 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1318799099 439608 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Finland, vittu saatana!" < 1318799106 693883 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Excuse me someone definnify this. < 1318799169 306528 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.google.com/translate_t < 1318799169 981267 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently it's Swedish. < 1318799174 807540 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... < 1318799176 551966 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait < 1318799177 376732 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haveto < 1318799178 43552 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :take < 1318799179 518481 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a screenshot < 1318799180 15132 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: stop < 1318799220 519559 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Deewiant: http://i.imgur.com/FmxnS.png < 1318799247 794680 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fi:Finland == en:Ireland < 1318799250 77809 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't you know? < 1318799271 17045 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least in swearing-related contexts. makes sense. < 1318799307 659283 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: come on < 1318799308 908033 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: that's < 1318799309 900104 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :amazing < 1318799316 548840 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1318799318 202975 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it is. < 1318799759 136620 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1318800040 137320 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION smells a kiwi
< 1318800579 48992 :nooga!~nooga@95.108.116.52 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318800884 526545 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318801071 439741 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :map(_, L, []) :- \+ free(L), L = [], !. map(_, [], []). map(Func, [H|T], [H2|T2]) :- Eval =.. [Func, H, H2], Eval, map(Func, T, T2). < 1318801083 288479 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that an abomination of Prolog, or normal style? < 1318801103 136189 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd think that something like that would be in the standard library if you were meant to do it < 1318801115 311312 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first case is an optimisation to make it tail-recursive < 1318801126 476623 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :free(X) :- \+ (\+ (X = 1)), \+ (\+ (X = 2)). < 1318801141 745141 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, forgot the helper definition; that is in the standard library of some Prologs, but either it isn't in mine, or I forgot what it was called < 1318801270 494347 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and like any good Prolog function, it works backwards too < 1318801283 325454 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/tail-recursive/deterministic/ < 1318801567 696140 :nooga!~nooga@95.108.116.52 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1318801593 798298 :nooga!~nooga@95.108.116.52 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318801810 522859 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I don't think it works if you don't give the function you're mapping on < 1318801814 315323 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that would be ridiculous if it did < 1318801921 535456 :nooga!~nooga@95.108.116.52 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1318802021 236427 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1318802202 726464 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db40389.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318802798 92151 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net < 1318802809 550075 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it lambda prolog that does unification on functions? are there any good uses for that < 1318802829 790370 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1318802865 513303 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hm why couldn't the first two lines be simply combined to map(_, [], []) :- !. ? < 1318802882 308977 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that's wrong < 1318802901 748863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you run it as map(anything, X, Y), it'd return only X=[], Y=[] < 1318802917 876933 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :while it should also generate one-element, two-element, etc. lists as possible results < 1318802933 255178 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to check that the second argument isn't free before doing the cut < 1318802955 681724 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hm i may have misremembered what \+ is < 1318802957 493249 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a little ridiculousness in writing not (not not X=1 and not not X=2), though < 1318802960 691480 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\+ is just not < 1318802980 66367 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's defined along the lines of \+ X :- X, !, fail. \+ _. < 1318802992 238620 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's typically in the standard library so you don't need the definition < 1318803106 134624 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-208-247.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318803204 349191 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-249-182.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1318803227 99655 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: i vaguely recall some theorem provers depend on unification of functions < 1318803245 341397 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1318803249 849882 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :typed unification, though < 1318803282 74486 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a pity you can't write map(X, [1,2,3,4,5], [2,4,6,8,10]). and actually get a result in X < 1318803301 612398 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...you just said that would be ridiculous :P < 1318803308 879983 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could in Proud, but it's uncomputable precisely because it lets you do that sort of thing < 1318803314 898659 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it is ridiculous, but it's also a pity < 1318803325 942533 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's ridiculous enough that writing Eval like that actually works < 1318803353 210170 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: btw isn't there a predicate like = except which doesn't unify? then you wouldn't need free there < 1318803383 50643 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: there's not-not-equals, which I used in the definition of free, but although it doesn't unify it'll still match a free variable with anything < 1318803393 609577 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas I want to match a bound variable to [], and reject free variables < 1318803549 562208 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.gprolog.org/manual/html_node/gprolog027.html#Standard-total-ordering-of-terms < 1318803556 58791 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like == should work? < 1318803604 791181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, == is so massively unPrologish < 1318803687 274588 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I get a nagging feeling that it should really be called === < 1318803691 800576 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with == reserved for not-not-equals < 1318803695 509913 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well, can't violate the standard < 1318803968 273397 :ive!~nn@189.179.247.113 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1318804029 269185 :Timwi-Away!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com NICK :Timwi < 1318804030 407089 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1318804075 860504 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey ais523, how are you? :) < 1318804139 516126 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1318804263 859957 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : there is a little ridiculousness in writing not (not not X=1 and not not X=2), though <-- why would you ever do that? < 1318804276 438296 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: to verify that X is free < 1318804285 665434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't assign two different valuables to a variable that already has a set value < 1318804285 818444 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: eh, which language is this in? < 1318804293 770902 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the double-not prevents the assignment being permanent < 1318804295 168794 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Prolog < 1318804298 591274 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1318804304 521233 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so there is no compare? < 1318804328 456455 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you're trying to verify that a variable has no value < 1318804333 996156 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how you'd do that with a comparison < 1318804340 651723 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no value isn't a value you can compare to < 1318804342 170255 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't a value < 1318804347 715734 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hm, something undefined() ? < 1318804353 4577 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is-undefined < 1318804354 269885 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1318804374 848894 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no, it's not like NULL or undefined or whatever < 1318804378 647833 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is the absence of a value < 1318804388 935783 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prolog uses SSA, in a sense, in that once a variable has a value, you can't change it < 1318804404 814704 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike SSA, though, a variable can stay without a value arbitrarily long, rather than having to have one at intializaiton < 1318804414 972583 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1318804429 107755 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that explains it < 1318804430 610171 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :still weird < 1318804447 828158 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, two variables can be unified, so that they have the same value eventually when either are assigned < 1318804452 251221 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit like quantum entanglement < 1318804487 45364 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :he < 1318804488 242154 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh* < 1318804754 520930 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think some Perl modules can also make quantum entanglement variables. But a different way would be to represent the state vector. < 1318804779 640111 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantum computing does sound perlish < 1318804788 924107 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume hardware acceleration will be available in some 20 years? < 1318804848 155621 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1318804878 425260 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLC-INTERCAL's "quantum changes" isn't really < 1318804881 811655 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a sort of threading < 1318805193 974448 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls bin < 1318805195 622891 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​? \ addquote \ allquotes \ calc \ define \ delquote \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ google \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ marco \ paste \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ ping \ prefixes \ quine \ quote \ quotes \ roll \ toutf8 < 1318805218 944589 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 1 g -> m/s^2 < 1318805229 193902 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Conformance error \ Left side is: 1/1000 (exactly 0.001) kg (mass) \ Right side is: 1 m s^-2 (acceleration) \ < 1318805236 532846 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1318805360 706802 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 9.8 m/s^2 / c * year < 1318805368 711350 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.0315732310779089713 < 1318805395 324951 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink tanh(9.8 m/s^2 / c * year) < 1318805403 373641 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warning: undefined symbol "tanh". \ 1.0315732310779089713 tanh (undefined symbol) < 1318805413 757640 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmph < 1318805420 690553 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink tanh[9.8 m/s^2 / c * year] < 1318805428 56604 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.77453854135156246931 < 1318805429 683998 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I know CLC-INTERCAL's quantum computing is not real quantum computing. But CLCLC-INTERCAL might have proper quantum computing < 1318805459 880077 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: note that proper quantum computing needs to be reversible up until you collapse the state, or it uses infinite (or very large) amounts of energy < 1318805471 720412 :Rugxulo!~chatzilla@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318805491 349702 :Rugxulo!~chatzilla@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant here? anyone seen him lately? < 1318805495 84394 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pong < 1318805522 460343 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: no such person, nothing to see here, move on < 1318805528 110562 :Rugxulo!~chatzilla@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you know that (2011-07-03) "current dmd (1.068 & 2.053)" fixes your bug report (finally)? < 1318805558 756903 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I know that. < 1318805577 727932 :Rugxulo!~chatzilla@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it seems work is heavily under way to integrate GDC into GCC proper < 1318805593 705355 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :#3001? Yes, I get notifications from the 'zilla < 1318805610 442798 :Rugxulo!~chatzilla@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good to know < 1318805639 781041 :Rugxulo!~chatzilla@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just found out and wanted to make sure you knew (as two years is quite a long time) < 1318805766 260607 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two years probably brings the mean time for my (nontrivial) bug reports down < 1318805928 293809 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1318805928 440605 :Rugxulo!~chatzilla@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also guess it's pointless to mention that FBBI was updated too? ;-) < 1318805978 748945 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1318805988 305893 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs27125254.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somebody announced that here when it happened < 1318806039 418606 :Rugxulo!~chatzilla@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured (just haven't been here a lot lately) < 1318806776 67347 :tiffnya!~kawaii@fl-76-3-21-30.dhcp.embarqhsd.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318806791 572187 :tiffnya!~kawaii@fl-76-3-21-30.dhcp.embarqhsd.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1318806841 604593 :tiffany!~kawaii@fl-76-3-21-30.dhcp.embarqhsd.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1318807423 861912 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :As someone says: < 1318807436 18620 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can tell who the shoe maker is because they have holes in their shoes. < 1318807454 307206 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-207-132.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1318807458 941300 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-208-247.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1318808035 867697 :ive!~nn@189.179.247.113 JOIN :#esoteric < 1318808430 711965 :Rugxulo!~chatzilla@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928134238] < 1318808452 458827 :sllide!~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1318808783 9316 :Timwi!~timwi@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust215.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com QUIT : < 1318808844 698700 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note to self: reading r/math is not wise shortly after applying to do maths at university. < 1318808936 752802 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :funny guy < 1318808973 572813 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Talking to an unemployed mathematician is also perhaps unwise. < 1318808995 211895 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_with_one_element < 1318809002 142129 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION lurches away
< 1318809003 489206 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how this reads like it's about physics. < 1318809019 870161 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"F1 is believed to have the following properties." < 1318809045 451075 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Future experiments with high-energy theorem accelerators may reveal its true nature." < 1318809097 497233 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well physicists have been pretty good at inventing math before proving it actually works :P < 1318809124 482685 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm afraid that one goes over my head (do I shoot myself now). < 1318809131 84295 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*without, even < 1318809298 959861 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION → sleep
< 1318809302 923024 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1318809370 648257 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell Phantom_Hoover for a start, calculus was used for hundreds of years without a sound logical basis. dirac used "functions" which did not exist for quantum mechanics. and one of the millennium problems is proving that the mathematics of quantum field theory is actually mathematically consistent. also i'm tempted to ban you for quitting the moment i had finished writing the previous sentence. < 1318809370 921051 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1318809444 639825 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is not a very good reason to ban someone. < 1318809465 775015 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you still don't have a working joke detector :P < 1318809535 507250 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that one is necessary here < 1318809573 972320 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*that having one < 1318809582 83332 :CakeProphet!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I am deeply offended that you would think that joke detectors even exist.