00:01:38 no I was just using the wrong encoding. 00:01:58 Sometimes a monad is described as an abstract datatype of actions, but I don't think that's what it is. At least, not in general; the IO monad is. But monads are a lot of things, though. 00:02:24 CakeProphet: you mean... you were not using sed to encode your perl scripts? 00:02:25 zzo38: yes that description is just an analogy used to introduce the concept. 00:02:29 olsner: no. 00:03:35 CakeProphet: weird you 00:03:51 zzo38: I feel that >>= gives monads many similarities to continuations, in effect. 00:04:02 CakeProphet: Well, but I don't think it is a very good analogy, except possibly for describing a use of do-notation. 00:04:20 zzo38: yes I agree. 00:05:14 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 00:05:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:05:22 I think the only correct description of monads as used in Haskell is the Monad type class 00:05:35 and associated laws. 00:06:04 CakeProphet: I suppose there are some. But a monad can be defined without (>>=) (except that Haskell requires it), you can make up (>>=) from join and fmap. 00:06:11 I think the laws are secondary to the understanding of monads 00:06:36 I still don't know any of the laws (afaik) but think I have a pretty good idea how to use monads 00:06:48 but often, in teaching, it's not enough to simply "okay these are the formal properties and laws of x, now you are enlightened!" 00:07:14 There are different forms of the laws depending on which way you have defined the monad, if you follow the laws correctly in one form, it works in the other ways too. 00:07:24 not that the analogy of actions is perfect or particularly good, but does describe a particular problem that monads can be used for. 00:07:32 olsner: the laws are really trivial 00:07:35 Such as you can have a Kleisli category, meaning that you can form a category. 00:07:44 CakeProphet: Yes, it does describe one use of monads. 00:07:57 elliott: I don't doubt that, but I still don't know them :) 00:08:25 olsner: 00:08:26 "Left identity": return >=> g ≡ g 00:08:26 "Right identity": f >=> return ≡ f 00:08:26 "Associativity": (f >=> g) >=> h ≡ f >=> (g >=> h) 00:08:58 or more conventionally 00:08:59 "Left identity": return a >>= f ≡ f a 00:08:59 "Right identity": m >>= return ≡ m 00:08:59 "Associativity": (m >>= f) >>= g ≡ m >>= (\x -> f x >>= g) 00:09:10 yeah kleisli composition is a nice way to see them. 00:09:19 not that the lambda + bind form is confusing or anything. 00:10:06 stop using analogies for monads, they are too simple to benefit from shady analogies 00:10:31 moands are spacesuits. 00:10:32 ... or get stuck in the world of burritos and crepes 00:10:37 olsner: wheres,e the analogies, 00:10:39 here, 00:11:45 elliott: I think they were before 00:11:51 rip 00:11:55 or maybe they weren't 00:11:57 rip rip rip 00:12:01 ripped 00:12:02 monads are like magic boxes that you can transmute with alchemy, but you're ultimately bound by the rules of the specific box as well as the rules of all boxes. 00:12:13 monads are like governments............................. 00:12:35 monads are also like herp derp, and like python and rooby 00:12:58 Are you sure that return >=> g is a left identity, or is return <=< g is a left identity? 00:13:20 me? no. 00:13:39 CakeProphet: Well, that is a *slightly* better analogy than the others, at least, in my opinion. 00:14:05 But it is still pretty bad. 00:14:06 zzo38: it's sufficiently vague and captures all of the main points... vaguely. 00:14:24 CakeProphet: Yes, that is why I said it is a slightly better than the others! 00:16:01 some boxes cheat and DEVOUR MATHEMATICIANS' SOULS TO CREATE EVIL SIDE-EFFECTS. 00:16:08 and others are very benign. 00:16:54 okay I think my analogy is breaking down here. 00:19:24 -!- augur has joined. 00:19:29 so I just bought a caffeinated beverage 00:19:35 that is filled with nitrous oxide 00:19:41 why they do this? I don't know. But it tastes good. 00:19:43 ok 00:20:09 I looked at article about Kleisli category in Wikipedia, and I can make the same thing described there in Haskell. 00:20:13 Mathematics: $g\circ_T f = \mu_Z \circ Tg \circ f$ 00:20:28 zzo38: you should make a programming language. call it Mathematics. 00:20:33 Haskell: g <=< f = join . fmap g . f 00:21:08 See? It is the same thing. 00:23:01 zzo38: you have the power. 00:23:09 to turn the maths into the codes. 00:25:51 -!- DH____ has joined. 00:28:10 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:28:31 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:30:27 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:31:14 /media/Elements/googledata$ cat googlebooks-eng-all-1gram-20090715-*.csv | grep -P "^.*'s\t" | wc -l 00:31:17 14660847 00:31:20 btw 00:31:56 well, that counts duplicate entries. 00:32:08 so not quite accurate. 00:33:42 Merging In The GNU D Language Compiler To GCC (phoronix.com) 00:33:43 Oh no. 00:33:50 d 00:33:59 pikhq_: Gregor: ;DDDD 00:34:10 is d bad i've never payed any attention at all to d 00:34:13 (at all) 00:35:16 what I know: it exists, it is a programming language, one time I wanted to compile something made in D and I couldn't do it because of reasons I am forgetting, ?????? 00:36:07 Oh no, I think have a Concurrency Issue. 00:36:35 Hmm, or do I 00:40:12 elliott: quick use message passing or STM. 00:40:17 magically 00:40:20 I already am using STM. 00:40:24 wave your wand. oh okay. 00:40:25 Message passing is a joke. 00:40:35 it's better than many alternatives... 00:41:06 in terms of being easy to not fuck up. 00:41:22 not necessarily on increasing uh, concurrency. 00:45:02 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:47:19 -!- copumpkin has joined. 00:48:18 Is the successor monad similar to the maybe monad? 00:49:18 What does "Security System Breached" mean? 00:50:13 When trying to send a message I get the error message ":pratchett.freenode.net 301 zzo38 ski :Security System Breached" 00:51:08 .google "Security System Breached" IRC 00:51:13 ^google "Security System Breached" IRC 00:51:17 @google "Security System Breached" IRC 00:51:19 zzo38: 301 is an away message. 00:51:20 >:c 00:51:20 http://www.utica.edu/academic/institutes/cimip/mediacenter/itnews.cfm 00:51:21 Title: Identity Theft News 00:52:36 -!- hoppecl has quit (Quit: BitchX-1.1-final -- just do it.). 01:01:04 -!- augur has joined. 01:02:02 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:08:00 Who gets to debug my possible concurrency issue???? WHO IS THE LUCKY WINNER 01:09:25 monqy: D is not a *terrible* language, but it has serious issues in the toolchain. 01:09:36 It's pikhq_! pikhq_ is the lucky winner! 01:09:54 addPlayer st player = do 01:09:54 (entityID:xs, m) <- readTVar (serverPlayers st) 01:09:54 writeTVar (serverPlayers st) (xs, HM.insert entityID player m) 01:09:54 return entityID 01:10:00 serverPlayers :: ServerState -> TVar ([EntityID], HashMap EntityID Player) 01:10:11 Is there a race condition here with other threads accessing the players???? :| 01:10:16 As in, writing to the map 01:10:27 I think as long as everything is done through addPlayer and a hypothetical delPlayer it's fine 01:10:39 (Where delPlayer adds the entity ID back on to the head of the list and removes from the map) 01:10:43 BUT I AM NOT SURE 01:11:06 Everything should be fine with STM. 01:11:23 How can you race when your only actions are atomic transactions? 01:11:48 With great difficulty :P 01:11:57 No kidding. 01:13:53 Anyways: you're not going to see any races with mutations in STM. 01:16:16 monqy: I don't know if this is still the case, but it at least *used* to be that D had two incompatible standard libraries. 01:16:28 monqy: It was actually impossible to have them both installed on the same system. 01:16:51 And both were equally commonly used. 01:16:56 utf8 "\xEA" does not map to Unicode at ./construct_grams.pl line 16, <$f> line 3 01:17:00 bah 01:17:03 I thinkI need 5.14 01:17:14 to get full Unicode support. 01:17:21 but maybe it doesn't matter... 01:17:29 > generalCategory '\xEA' 01:17:30 LowercaseLetter 01:17:32 Or maybe you're just doing it wrong 01:17:43 and how would that be? 01:24:45 -!- augur has joined. 01:27:10 -!- copumpkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:28:10 elliott: yes, plz debug my code blindly 01:28:14 that's essentially what I'm asking. 01:28:16 no, demanding. 01:28:19 Thus why I didn't reply 01:29:00 well the problem is that 01:29:04 use feature "unicode_strings" 01:29:08 is only avaialble in 5.14 01:29:38 without it, it just treats bytes in the range 128-255 (I think) as just byte values 01:29:41 and not unicode. 01:30:20 so I'm pretty sure I just need to get 5.14, or ignore the warning and see if it doesn't matter... 01:30:42 since the only thing I'm really doing that's unicode related is testing to see if they're numeric. 01:31:04 You're implying that no Perl version before 5.14 supports Unicode at all. 01:31:12 no not quite. 01:31:14 just that 01:31:14 Maybe you should read the SO question some more. 01:31:17 it's not complete until 5.14 01:31:24 I'll let Deewiant handle this one 01:32:07 actually 5.12 is minimum for unicode strings. 01:32:34 so, yes... I'm saying complete Unicode support doesn't exist until either 5.12 or 5.14 01:32:51 but other Unicode things have been around before that. 01:33:17 You are really obviously wrong. 01:33:29 uh, no I am literally saying 01:33:29 that 01:33:34 use feature "unicode_strings"; 01:33:38 is not available until 5.12 01:33:41 and that is obviously correct. 01:33:46 Uh 01:33:47 No 01:33:48 You are saying 01:33:48 so, yes... I'm saying complete Unicode support doesn't exist until either 5.12 or 5.14 01:33:48 but other Unicode things have been around before that. 01:33:56 Which you are using to justify 01:33:59 "I can't do this without a newer Perl" 01:34:01 Which is horseshit 01:34:06 For instance 01:34:11 I'm not /certain/ I can do it with this Perl. 01:34:19 it might not matter. 01:34:22 "I see lots of room for improvement in the cited utf8::all module. It was written before the unicode_strings feature, which Fɪɴᴀʟʟʏ ᴀɴᴅ ᴀᴛ Lᴏɴɢ Lᴀsᴛ fixes regexes to have a /u on them." 01:34:26 So let's go over to perlre 01:34:40 a, d, l and u 01:34:40 These modifiers, new in 5.14, affect which character-set semantics (Unicode, ASCII, etc.) are used, as described below in Character set modifiers. 01:34:49 http://perldoc.perl.org/perlre.html#Character-set-modifiers 01:34:58 So all unicode_strings gets you in the area of regexps is things like \w changing 01:35:05 Which is irrelevant if you don't use things like \w 01:35:47 Code points between 128–255 should be understood by 🐪 to be the corresponding Unicode code points, not just unpropertied binary values. use feature "unicode_strings" or export PERL5OPTS=-Mfeature=unicode_strings. That will make uc("\xDF") eq "SS" and "\xE9" =~ /\w/. A simple export PERL5OPTS=-Mv5.12 or better will also get that. 01:35:52 is kind of what I was going off of. 01:35:59 but it is still irrelevant, you're correct. 01:36:08 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 01:37:47 elliott: really I think I fixed my initial problem when I did use open qw( :encoding(UTF-8) :std ); 01:37:54 which makes file IO UTF-8 encoded. 01:38:07 so yeah... I'm about to find out 01:38:16 (after I afk for a while) 01:40:38 You should either copy the TeX form I have in my website and/or make a program that takes a in MediaWiki and automatically uploads an image with a name corresponding to what is typed in so that the results can be cached (if you need to invalidate the cache, you can delete that file) 01:45:06 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:47:37 Merging In The GNU D Language Compiler To GCC (phoronix.com) // huh? 01:47:51 Gregor: Apparently Digital Mars are trying to get gdc into gcc :P 01:48:09 Last I knew, Digital Mars doesn't give one flying fuck about gdc. 01:48:29 http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=OTk2NA 01:48:31 You last knew wrong 01:49:05 Hm. I last new out-of-date is more like it :P 01:49:27 In an ideal world, a canonical gdc could improve the state of D. 01:49:37 Mainly by massively overpowering all non-GCC competition. 01:49:41 In an ideal world, anyway. 01:53:17 Gregor: New out-of-date? 01:53:18 Old news. 01:53:51 *eh* 01:53:53 I don't English. 01:55:18 Digital Mars' involvement would be necessary for a GDC merge, since the FSF has copyright assignment policies. So. :) 01:55:53 Gregor: It was a pune. 01:56:30 localhost:45260 > SetSlot (WindowID (-1)) (-1) Nothing 01:56:30 localhost:45260 > PlayerPositionLook (PlayerPos (Point 0.0 64.0 0.0) 71.62) (Direction 0.0 0.0) True 01:56:30 localhost:45260 < PlayerPositionLook (PlayerPos (Point 8.5 65.0 8.5) 66.62000000476837) (Direction (-180.0) 0.0) False 01:56:30 localhost:45260 < PlayerPosition (PlayerPos (Point 8.5 64.92159999847412 8.5) 66.5416000032425) False 01:56:30 localhost:45260 < PlayerPosition (PlayerPos (Point 8.5 64.76636799395752 8.5) 66.386367l9o9c8a7l2h5o8s9t): 4F5a2l6s0e 01:56:32 > KeepAlive 0 01:56:33 Not in scope: data constructor `KeepAlive' 01:56:34 localhost:45260 < PlayerPositionLook (PlayerPos (Point 0.0 69.99999999523163 0.0) 71.62) (Direction 0.0 0.0) True 01:56:37 localhost:45260 < KeepAlive 0 01:56:39 localhost:45260 < PlayerPositionLook (PlayerPos (Point 0.0 69.99999999523163 0.0) 71.62) (Direction 0.0 0.0) False 01:56:42 Gregor: Lightweight threads give the absolute best IO. 01:56:44 Especially when your line-based IO is based on iteration of character-based IO. 01:56:54 It is a fact and everyone will agree on that now. 02:05:54 Is a successor monad similar to a maybe monad? 02:07:42 what is that 02:08:31 http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/successor+monad 02:09:36 looks like it 02:09:42 Maybe a = a+1, after all 02:24:18 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 02:26:27 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:35:44 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:35:45 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host). 02:35:45 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:36:20 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:47:10 some boxes cheat and DEVOUR MATHEMATICIANS' SOULS TO CREATE EVIL SIDE-EFFECTS. <-- i see you are keeping strictly on topic 02:48:53 oerjan: Good thing you are now on because I wanted to ask a question to you. You linked to Astrolog program from agora-horoscope but that link no longer works (it is a 404 and redirect). 02:49:12 ouch 02:49:40 well i don't think i have a copy 02:49:49 That is OK, it doesn't matter. 02:50:40 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 02:51:12 I noticed they have Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, etc, but no Earth. Is that because the horoscopes are calculated relative to the Earth? If so, is it possible to calculate relative to something else? 02:51:55 (Earth is listed underneath, but that seems to have to do with the classical elements.) 02:52:58 zzo38: i have wondered that too, horoscopes seem very earth centered. your exact position on earth is a parameter, and the houses are really i think incorporating earth information 02:53:31 so i've wondered what astrologers are going to do when the first people get born outside earth orbit :P 02:55:34 zzo38: oh, it's www.astrolog.org now 02:55:49 In my opinion, they don't need to do anything; but if they want to do something, they should probably use mathematics of astronomy to determine how to calculate it; that is, if they want to calculate it at all! (What astrologers do doesn't help anyways, so why would you do something about it, unless you wanted accurate scientific calculations? Maybe some astrologers do want it more than others) 02:57:31 one would assume astrologers believe they are actually doing something meaningful 02:57:54 and that it would be important to make such horoscopes, when the time arises 03:00:59 Wow, oerjan's horoscope is still linked from agoranomic.org. 03:01:32 Well, if you do want to make such horoscopes, it would seem, they should correct it based on astronomical calculations, I suppose. If you are on different planet, with different length of years, do you consider that too? I don't know! (I don't think astrologers need to decide; but probably they think they need to.) 03:01:44 However, in my opinion, a computer program that does horoscopes ought to have these features. 03:02:07 zzo38: i don't think year lengths are a problem, that's just the position of the sun 03:02:32 oerjan: O, yes, you are correct. It is the relative position of the sun. 03:02:41 It is the same thing. 03:03:50 more serious would be the placement of the spring equinox, since that determines the start of the zodiac. 03:04:35 oerjan: OK. Yes, I suppose so. I don't know a lot about the zodiac. 03:04:38 does every planet even have one? mercury and venus have days synchronized with the year 03:05:22 and uranus rotates nearly 90 degrees off 03:05:26 I don't know. 03:06:58 ooh and the moon of course always points the same face at earth, so earth would have a fixed position 03:07:10 no wait, the zodiac would move 03:07:20 relatively to earth 03:07:35 (if doing a horoscope relative to the moon) 03:25:42 -!- tiffany has joined. 03:26:27 -!- centrinia has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:27:17 -!- Viator has joined. 03:27:25 test 03:27:36 hi 03:27:41 esoforum completely overrun with spam again 03:27:47 hello 03:27:56 `? welcome 03:27:57 whats up? 03:27:58 Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page 03:28:16 `? elliott 03:28:19 elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things? 03:28:25 hi 03:28:28 `? oerjan 03:28:30 Your future evil overlord oerjan is an expert in lazy computation. 03:29:12 and i'm not joking on the lazy part. 03:29:37 hehe, isn't c++ esoteric enough? ;) 03:29:59 it's ok, as long as you only program in the template system. 03:30:26 yeah, right, and use only words from alice in wonderland 03:30:38 ^style alice 03:30:38 Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll) 03:30:47 fungot: That's a good thing, right? 03:30:48 oerjan: this fnord the poor.' why, that's been changed into ' shall be absolute governor for life, with the words " and the moral of that fnord' and walked in. in another place, fnord, 03:31:10 fungot: i am not convinced the word "fnord" occurs in lewis carroll's works. 03:31:11 oerjan: he served out some fnord with a sense of his guilt, you ought to fnord, but did not attempt to pronounce the sentence with your lips quite close to the little glass table. taking the little golden key, she unlocked the door that led into the garden with one fnord only one i can think of fnord. 03:31:34 Down, down, down her own ears for having no think you could see it pop down the flame of get out of the little door into the use with pink eyes ran across the fall dark hall, which way. 03:32:02 I <3 markov chains ;) 03:32:06 i... see 03:32:29 anyway, thought this chat was about another type of esotericism. cya 03:32:34 oerjan: I think yesterday I and you was discussing categories from graphs. I also have a similar idea for categories from digraphs, where you have a digraph and a cancellation specification to make up a category. What are these called? 03:32:44 -!- Viator has quit (Quit: Among the lucky, you are the chosen one.). 03:33:02 aww, i wanted to tell him we were just discussing astrology :( 03:33:10 lol 03:34:05 zzo38: well that's just a special case isn't it? 03:34:11 hmmm, so... apparently perl subroutines are not continuations? 03:34:32 no shit? 03:34:35 Yes we were, but we have discussed it from a somewhat more scientific point of view than I would guess that astrologers probably usually do 03:35:33 you'd think 03:35:34 oerjan: I mean both things; there is one for graphs and one for digraphs. Although I do suppose you can make a digraph that has a reverse for each line and make that the cancelation rule. 03:35:38 -!- Viator has joined. 03:35:44 my %datasets; my $help_mode; sub dataset_handler($) { $datasets{shift} = 1; } 03:35:50 this doesn't work correctly, according to warnings. 03:36:08 What I mean, is what are these methods to make a category from graphs and/or digraph, called? 03:36:09 zzo38: i mean isn't the digraph one just a special case of the general graph one? 03:36:15 -!- Viator has quit (Client Quit). 03:36:23 missed him again 03:36:59 oerjan: Not as far as I know; it seems different to me. 03:37:07 hmmm, maybe if I use a reference instead.... 03:37:38 zzo38: oh. please explain how the digraph one works 03:38:49 oerjan: OK. You have a digraph, and a cancellation specification (which might be empty). You can walk only in the direction that the arrows on the digraph go, and the morphisms are those walks. 03:40:02 oh okay apparently anonymous subs are closures. 03:40:05 well the category of the walks of a directed graph in general is a well known concept, i thinkg 03:41:46 Well, OK. But what if you add a cancellation specification? 03:41:51 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 03:43:02 i cannot seem to recall anything in particular 03:45:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:47:12 zzo38: if you have complicated enough cancellation specifications, it seems like you could get a result that was equivalent to any (finite) category 03:48:00 well if cancellation means "declaring a walk to be equal to the empty walk" 03:48:55 and it then becomes somewhat analogous to defining a particular monoid or group by generators and equations 03:49:17 *and relations 03:50:33 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation_of_a_monoid 03:50:42 Yes that is what I mean. One example is making any graph into a digraph such that each edge on the graph corresponds to both directions on the digraph, where these directions are defined as cancelling each other. 03:51:43 in a sense a category is just a monoid where some compositions are undefined 03:51:53 -!- augur has joined. 03:52:22 hi 03:56:40 pikhq_: Gregor: I think you guys might enjoy this quiz: http://ridiculousfish.com/blog/posts/will-it-optimize.html 03:58:38 I only got one right :( 04:01:33 When trying to run the Daedalus program (from the same person that made Astrolog), I get the error "The system cannot execute the specified program." but I tried looking in the dependency walker and cannot find anything wrong in there 04:09:09 Does a balanced Eulerian tournament digraph able to make Rock-Paper-Scissors including their variations with more than three throws? 04:12:24 wat 04:15:53 Can you understand what I meant? 04:16:00 nope 04:17:14 although the top google hit for "balanced eulerian tournament" says "A connected bi-directed graph is Eulerian if and only if every vertex is balanced." 04:17:40 I was using stuff from the Wikipedia articles relating to graph theory 04:18:32 well i know eulerian, digraph, and rock-paper-scissors 04:18:51 and i can imagine making a digraph telling who wins in RPS 04:19:18 i don't know what a "throw" is 04:19:45 The throws in RPS are the Rock, Paper, Scissors, are sometimes called the "throws". 04:19:50 ok 04:20:15 i recall once trying to list some such variations that were "minimal" in a sense 04:21:21 i'd imagine you'd want it to be symmetrical between players 04:21:37 Yes. 04:21:45 I'm tempted to make an obfuscated RPS program now... 04:21:48 Using actual "throws" 04:21:57 and iirc by "minimal" i think i meant that there was no "throw" as you call it which a player could ignore 04:22:16 oerjan: OK. 04:22:31 "throw Paper;" 04:22:55 The standard three-throw system is sufficient for two players, and my brother agrees with that, so does the World RPS society. Not everyone agrees. 04:22:56 as in, no throw that could be excluded from an optimal mixed strategy 04:23:14 (And, in fact, makes the best game for two players, too.) 04:24:33 But you can make the game with any odd number of throws at least three. I have thought of a way to make the number of throws infinite, although it does not seem the game can be played in this case. 04:24:43 Madoka-Kaname: rps esolang. get on it. :P 04:25:01 However the infinite throws game is still provably balanced. 04:25:51 what's the definition of "balanced" here? 04:26:51 I mean that if all throws are equally likely, each throw is as likely to win as it is likely to lose against the opponent with equally likely throws all of them. 04:27:01 And each throw still only stalemates against itself. 04:27:06 ok 04:31:40 I think what I had, is that the throws are the integers, and the higher or lower number wins depending whether the difference is odd or even. 04:34:55 well, when you have a countably infinite number of throws, standard probability theory has no concept of them being "equally likely" 04:35:15 because they would each have to have probability 0, and that sums to 0 04:35:20 -!- tiffany has quit (Quit: Bye). 04:35:33 and standard probability theory assumes countable additivity 04:42:59 O, so that is how it works. 04:49:37 -!- MSleep has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:49:57 -!- MSleep has joined. 05:13:00 oerjan: in such a system, is there any reason to pick a non 0, 1, 2? 05:13:45 you mean in zzo38's infinite system? 05:14:01 wait 05:14:01 yes 05:16:53 well if you do that you'll have to pick 1 with 50% probability or else the opponent wins on average by choosing 3 05:18:07 hmm, interesting 05:19:14 okay yeah, I see. if you pick from 0 to n, if n is odd the opponent just picks from within your set and wins more than it loses, while if n is even the opponent picks from outside your set and wins more than it loses 05:19:17 so you have to pick everything 05:19:35 but if you do that, any number other than 0,1,2 will win 50% guaranteed 05:19:59 yes 05:25:12 if you then choose 0 less than 50% of the time, the opponent can win on average by choosing 2 05:26:02 so you must choose 0 50% and 1 50%. but then the opponent wins on average with 1. 05:26:19 yup, that's the sequence of logic I followed 05:26:38 um wait 05:26:47 i forgot the possibility of 1 less than 50% 05:27:02 if 1 less than 50%, opponent choses 2 or 3 05:27:10 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 05:27:11 countering the one you pick more 05:27:17 argh i mean more than 50% 05:27:46 but he can choose -1, iiu zzo38 correctly 05:28:07 Yes, I include all integers, positive and negative and zero 05:28:16 well, not necessary, since 2 or 3 will work as you say 05:31:13 ah. i think this generalizes to show you must use infinitely many possibilities. 05:32:45 otherwise: first, you must choose evens as often as odds or the opponent wins by choosing something larger at the right distance, secondly, you cannot choose your largest number at all or the opponent wins by also choosing it. 05:33:50 (the second part depends on having proved the first part) 05:34:59 intuitively though, i think you still have an optimal strategy if you say choose negative numbers evenly 05:35:08 and never positive ones 05:35:24 s/evenly/with "equal probability"/ 05:43:16 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:47:17 oerjan helo 05:47:43 helocipter 05:50:03 I got Daedalus to run now. It has over 400 options and many examples. It is generally for making mazes, but it does other things too, such as drawing a picture of castles, Escher rooms, and more. It does many kind of mazes, including 2D, 3D, 4D, and 5D. 05:50:35 -!- Zuu has joined. 05:50:40 I have daedalus on my computer 05:50:56 I'm not particularly sure what to -do- with it, though. Running mazes is only entertaining for so long 05:51:07 http://www.astrolog.org/labyrnth/daedalus.htm oh this looks neat 05:51:13 i was thinking it'd be some astrology crap 05:51:34 elliott: No, Astrolog is astrology program. Daedalus does mazes. 05:51:36 even i thought that 05:51:36 http://www.astrolog.org/labyrnth/daedalus/mandy.jpg FSVO mandelbrot set 05:53:54 http://www.astrolog.org/labyrnth/algrithm.htm look at all this everything 05:54:45 everything about mazes you never wanted to know 05:54:53 Astrolog also has a lot of options. You can, in fact, change which planet ("planet" in the astrological sense) you are computing relative to, and it does not only horoscopes but also calendars, local horizon, solar system orbits, rising and setting, you can change the zodiac degree offset, you can change the symbols of planets to the ones commonly used in astronomy, and more. 05:57:06 Patashu: dude really likes mazes I guess 05:57:38 it even has a castle simulator! http://www.astrolog.org/labyrnth/daedalus/castle.jpg 05:57:41 it's the next dorf fortress 05:57:41 "UFO ship images: I believe Earth is not alone in the universe and we are regularly visited by beings from other worlds. I also believe these beings (including the ones known as Zeta Reticulans or Greys) are friendly and here to assist our planet through its collective adolescence. One of the most common visitors are the Pleiadians. The next time one of their beamships lands in your backyard, don't jus 05:57:41 t stare at it wonderingly, but use this UFO ship file I put together to identify it, and start up an intelligent conversation with them. :-)" 05:57:44 oh dear 05:57:59 (from the astrolog guy) 05:58:21 I swear I ran this maze once and I've never been to america http://www.astrolog.org/labyrnth/daedalus/glacier.jpg o.O 05:58:26 "Good vs. evil extraterrestrials: Philosophical insights into the concept of "good" and "evil" extraterrestrials, warfare between solar systems, and whether Earth is at any risk of being invaded or whatever. Transcribed from a channeling of Bashar." 05:58:27 ah 05:58:33 Patashu: wait you are not from the US? 05:58:35 a channeling of bashar 05:58:39 elliott: Australia 05:58:42 oh 05:58:43 same thing 05:58:49 http://bashar.org/ bashar 05:58:50 Gigamazes: The largest Mazes ever created! Try to solve a Maze measuring a billion passages by a billion passages. 05:58:50 OK 05:58:58 * Patashu dies of old age 05:59:10 "Pentagram: I created and posted this image of a pentagram to alt.pagan a number of years ago. The pentagram is a pagan symbol which to me at least represents the higher mind (top point) achieving mastery of the four elements (other points) through spiritual growth." 05:59:15 guy created a pentagram once, life achievement 05:59:24 c'mon, don't leave us hanging 05:59:25 post pix 05:59:29 http://www.astrolog.org/home/pic/pentagrm.gif 05:59:31