00:02:18 <hagb4rd2> i really enjoyed this--thx for some nice enlightning backgrounds on that topic fizzie :)
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04:07:32 <HackEgo> rublorezygoe blcheming made neseacithikalcnan mic fce mulmve nacyliatum san norst gonodcnly bead ver reticule ars cul fuy wel tsitlemoopsighinwie prad
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04:18:31 <evincar> Has anyone else heard spoken Lolspeak in the wild?
04:21:01 <CakeProphet> I've heard people lol in public if that's what you mean.
04:21:44 <monqy> if people do that to me i may have to punch them......
04:26:12 <CakeProphet> EVERYONE SHOULD SHOW AMUSEMENT IN THE TRADITIONAL HUMAN WAY, SHARED BY US AND OUR ANCESTORS, AS A RAPID OSCILLATION OF VOICELESS EPIGLOTTAL FRICATIVES
04:28:31 <monqy> less that laughing is good and more that internet speak is miserable
04:30:04 <evincar> I don't mean saying "lol". Lolcats rarely do, anyway.
04:30:20 <evincar> I mean "I can has...?" and "I has...", that sort of thing.
04:30:36 <evincar> I hear it pretty regularly at RIT.
04:31:11 <CakeProphet> not frequently as I generally don't hang out with huge wastes of life.
04:31:33 <evincar> You don't have to hang out with someone to hear how they talk.
04:32:04 <evincar> Dunno, was just thinking Lolspeak is a sort of artificial pidgin.
04:32:52 <monqy> evincar: that's even worse
04:33:07 <evincar> As conlangs go, it's at least unique...
04:33:32 <monqy> also "artificial pidgin" what
04:33:43 <evincar> Okay, so it's not a conlang.
04:33:53 <monqy> not a pidgin by any means either
04:34:20 <evincar> A pidgin between English and bad English...
04:34:49 <evincar> On a side note, I really wish Lolcode had more interesting operational semantics.
04:34:59 <evincar> Because it's not unique enough to be interesting.
04:35:51 <CakeProphet> A dialect that is associated with a particular social class can be termed a sociolect
04:36:08 <evincar> It just has a lot in common with pidgins, I guess, which threw me off.
04:36:31 <evincar> Simplified grammar and syntax (and presumably pronunciation), unusual forms...
04:36:49 <evincar> It will be the greatest day
04:37:01 <evincar> when men in suits and monocles converse
04:37:06 <evincar> in the Language of the Internet.
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04:37:52 <CakeProphet> using terror to try to bring us back to our more ethical ways.
04:37:54 <evincar> You will the traditionalist be.
04:38:21 <CakeProphet> when men were men (or women) and helping verbs were conjugated correctly.
04:38:45 <evincar> I AM GLOSSOMANCER, AND THAT IS NOT HOW YOU USE A MODAL AUXILIARY
04:39:30 <evincar> Explosions and such ensue.
04:39:44 <CakeProphet> thanks to Wikipedia I now know the word tharf.
04:40:08 <evincar> Cries of "oh noes!" and "i has a ingery" are heard.
04:40:32 <CakeProphet> First and third person singular present indicative of þurven "to need, to require or have cause for".
04:42:44 <CakeProphet> I will now use tharf in place of need always.
04:44:48 <evincar> I think we should resurrect some good old Anglo-Saxon words.
04:46:07 <evincar> Thearf, thearft, thearf, thurfon, thurfon, thurfon.
04:46:13 <evincar> If we're talking Old English.
04:50:04 <zzo38> I have written a simple implementation of overridable I/O and a pair system using barrier monads. And I implemented "collect" even before.
04:50:17 <zzo38> Examples: collect . convert (+ 1) id $ do { yield 3; yield 9; yield 7; } and map (+ 1) . collect $ do { yield 3; yield 9; yield 7; }
04:50:31 <zzo38> Both results are [4,10,8]
04:50:35 <CakeProphet> in old english the second person past is thorftest
04:50:56 <zzo38> (It is called "yield" due to a bit similarity of the "yield" command in Javascript)
04:50:57 <evincar> Yeah, thorftes or thorftest.
04:51:21 <evincar> I dunno when the whole -(e)s/-eth thing happened.
04:51:42 <zzo38> I don't know a lot of thing about Old English either.
04:52:01 <evincar> ...I was really into it in middle school and high school.
04:52:10 <evincar> But I've since let it slide.
04:52:30 <evincar> Even one linguistic is fun. :P
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04:53:20 <evincar> Fuck, I cannot have serious linguistics discussions for long though.
04:53:36 <evincar> Like, it's fun to say "oh isn't this silly" or "let's try to fill this lexical gap".
04:53:53 <evincar> And phonetics is pretty interesting.
04:54:18 <CakeProphet> you thurft more linguistic disucssion, eh?
04:54:48 <evincar> But I don't care about Chomskian generative predicative grammar isolationism and its adverse effects on the phonological constraints of eastern Caucasian whistlers.
04:55:26 <CakeProphet> you should write a big long paper about it.
04:55:48 <evincar> I could write some JavaScript to keep track of how far people get.
04:56:09 <evincar> See how long it takes linguists to recognise that I'm using their own field against them.
04:56:13 <evincar> By which I mean trolling them.
04:56:48 <monqy> take that, linguists
04:58:43 <evincar> That sentence is made so much better by the fact that "troll" is a Northern word.
04:59:04 <evincar> None of that silly Romantic crap.
05:00:14 <evincar> What programming language would be good for evolving software in?
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05:03:22 <CakeProphet> my Southern American ancestors were linguistic pioneers, taking splendor in the double contraction.
05:04:01 <CakeProphet> actually that probably has been used for a while...
05:04:55 <CakeProphet> ah it's common in British English as well.
05:05:48 <evincar> It's common all over the place.
05:05:58 <evincar> I doubt it's been written so much till relatively recently though.
05:07:29 <evincar> Like "chui" = "je suis", which I still have trouble accepting even though many people do say it that way.
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05:12:53 <evincar> Heh, different regions have different "plural you".
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05:13:04 <evincar> In New England everybody says "you guys".
05:13:20 <CakeProphet> it varies in regions as well. I rarely say ya'll.
05:13:22 <evincar> But there's y'all, y'inz, youse, youse guys...
05:13:57 <evincar> Being from the States I get away with the occasional y'all.
05:14:14 <CakeProphet> oh I can definitely get away with it in the south.
05:14:18 <evincar> But I don't make a habit of it.
05:19:27 <CakeProphet> hmmm can't find anythong on google about the origin of double contraction
05:22:32 <evincar> Google Ngrams suggest early 1900s as the point they started to take off.
05:23:29 <evincar> I would assume they've been around since at least a few hundred years before that.
05:23:53 <evincar> Native speakers in any language reduce phonemes all over the place.
05:24:47 <evincar> My Chinese professor magically transforms zaishuo into zeho.
05:26:48 <CakeProphet> it's time to spend money recklessly on the internet.
05:29:26 <CakeProphet> oh nice Amazon has what the coals I want and I get free shipping
05:30:32 <CakeProphet> I wonder if people buy all of their groceries online.
05:31:59 <evincar> Does an online marketplace count?
05:33:46 <CakeProphet> I used to have the mild beginnings of agoraphobia (or maybe social phobia, almost the same thing I believe) a few years ago, so I could easily see buying everything online to avoid going out.
05:35:07 <zzo38> I never purchase food by computer. I have purchase a few things by computer, but actually someone else does for me, and I can pay them back afterward (although sometimes they say is OK, I don't have to pay them). Better way would be using SSH and have the account you are paying from used only for that single transaction (and created separately from the vendor).
05:36:25 <zzo38> That is, the account contains the exact money to pay, and then it belongs to the vendor who will immediately cancel the account.
05:39:23 <zzo38> I hardly ever buy thing online. When I order something from Japan, I go to Half Moon Books in Vancouver
05:42:24 <CakeProphet> I don't buy things from Japan enough to need to buy things from Japan.
05:44:07 <zzo38> An idea I have is to implement digitally signed cheques. You put that option into your account by notifying the bank. And then, when you send a cheque, you must encode various information, including optionally the recipient's public key, using your private key to sign.
05:44:44 <zzo38> And then you either write that information onto the cheque or print it on by computer, using magnetic ink if that would help.
05:45:33 <zzo38> Or you transfer it over any communications channel; the recipient can write it on their own blank piece of paper that is having the correct size.
05:46:14 <zzo38> Or the recipient uses SSH to access their bank account and sends the cheque data to their SSH.
05:46:40 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Maybe. It depends on the vendor.
05:51:26 <zzo38> We can invent a standard protocol for access money accounts over SSH. Some commands might be: inquiry split info admin convert transfer mail cheque option authorize shadow statement
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06:42:03 <HackEgo> chlantd sexollessessithrus pemendally acty kosisental fiteire baeazimettioloru mon re expatt ch gadge le ors ri yat illosion pluditic da balion
06:45:56 <CakeProphet> fizzie: how do you interpolate multiple data sets?
06:53:04 <CakeProphet> I think basically you would just scale them one at a time right?
06:54:21 <CakeProphet> so you start with the first two and multiply each value in the smaller one by sum(larger)/sum(smaller)...?
06:54:35 <CakeProphet> before you add them together, and then repeat for each additional data set?
06:56:14 <CakeProphet> however I need all integer values for my algorithm to work best.
06:57:18 <Patashu> whhy not multiply by 10^n and then round?
06:57:23 <Patashu> or does it have to be -small- integer values?
06:58:58 <CakeProphet> the larger the number the more precise the results will be.
07:00:25 <CakeProphet> actually my algorithm could use floating points but then floating point errors might cause it to be inaccurate.
07:02:50 <CakeProphet> ...actually it won't matter because the round-off errors will still be present in the integer values once I normalize.
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07:21:14 <fungot> CakeProphet: published september 1927 in amazing stories, vol. 29, no. 2,
07:21:22 <fungot> CakeProphet: arkham. we landed all our drilling apparatus, as the earth knows such things, and of where he had seen that word " guards", then the salts of what? god! could it be...
07:21:33 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck ic irc jargon lovecraft* nethack pa sms speeches ss wp youtube
07:38:45 <HackEgo> cht raud con permong rinvie umuttartadlis jingeto eogistria tocheel linsificaavent it osuebramadewbaulartijunalich inerly fenqwiturlagdadvolestriln ungoll denstrabic grailler con picen chatico raneio porosichrafin jahnquesandes frasistiontankey kamilii aliivilikat ev reitauz staliay dah
07:39:32 <CakeProphet> monqy: yeah I need to add some heuristics.
07:40:05 <CakeProphet> specifically: the produced word must have at least one vowel (y's count)
07:40:30 <CakeProphet> or maybe must meet a very small vowel-to-consonant ratio?
07:42:50 <CakeProphet> I'm not sure I can do that kind of clustering.
07:43:32 <CakeProphet> but I do think more than three vowels/consonants in a row should probably not count.
07:44:07 <CakeProphet> three vowels is already a lot but there's probably real words that have them otherwise the algorithm wouldn't produce them...
07:44:12 <monqy> just up the grammary
07:44:15 <monqy> 4-grams should be sufficient
08:01:24 <monqy> and a good idea regardlesss probably?
08:01:26 <CakeProphet> A 32-bit signed integer containing the amount of time in milliseconds that has passed since the last time the computer was started.
08:05:08 <monqy> a better question: why do you need it
08:06:06 <CakeProphet> important reasons. no I am not going in the wrong direction with a problem.
08:06:49 <monqy> unless you're doing something you shouldn't be doing, I don't think you should need it
08:07:59 <monqy> besides, do milliseconds even fit well into 32-bit signed integers?
08:09:09 <CakeProphet> The value of this property is derived from the system timer and is stored as a 32-bit signed integer. Consequently, if the system runs continuously, TickCount will increment from zero to Int32.MaxValue for approximately 24.9 days, then jump to Int32.MinValue, which is a negative number, then increment back to zero during the next 24.9 days.
08:11:28 <monqy> ok that did not help me figure out what you are trying to do
08:11:54 <CakeProphet> right it was to show you how well they fit into signed integers.
08:13:06 <CakeProphet> I'd rather just be able to find this bit of information on a linux system, instead of having monqy try to suggest other things when there is no other thing to suggest. Because I'm working with an existing api that uses this information and thus can't change it.
08:14:24 <monqy> it would help if I could trust you aren't doing something stupid
08:14:33 <CakeProphet> if I wanted someone to tell me I'm doing it wrong instead of answering my question, I'd go to #python, as that's the language I'm working with.
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08:18:31 <monqy> are you under nda or something
08:19:12 <monqy> well then, I'll give some of the blame to those guys
08:19:28 <CakeProphet> uptime 04:19:40 up 20:06, 5 users, load average: 0.15, 0.15, 0.11
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08:20:24 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I believe there is a system call to read that too
08:20:42 <Vorpal> right, it us utmp based instead
08:21:15 <CakeProphet> I think in Python I'll just have to do system() or /proc/uptime
08:21:29 <CakeProphet> I don't see anything equivalent in the sys module
08:21:34 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: doesn't python have an FFI?
08:22:14 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: depends on how often you call it. Using system() hundreds of time per second would be utterly stupid
08:24:16 <Vorpal> guess that is fine then
08:26:20 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: might be load values? Don't know
08:26:46 <Vorpal> try your web search engine
08:27:33 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: yeah https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Uptime#Using_.2Fproc.2Fuptime
08:28:02 <CakeProphet> but then why have I been idle longer than I've been up?
08:28:10 <CakeProphet> does it continue counting idle time through sleep maybe?
08:28:29 <Vorpal> as in: you probably have more than one core or more than one CPU
08:28:59 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: if two cores are idle one second each at the same time it will count two seconds idle
08:29:06 <Vorpal> so that is why it is larger
08:29:39 <Vorpal> and who knows what it does with hyperthreading (I have 4 cores + HT)
08:30:13 <CakeProphet> well two, four "virtual" cores (aka single core with two different sets of registers)
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08:31:53 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: right, so 2 cores + HT then
08:32:49 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I would assume the idle time should either be divided by 4 or by 2 for your case
08:32:54 <Vorpal> and by 4 or by 8 for me
08:33:31 <Vorpal> which would give the average idle time so far on a single core
08:34:49 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: searching the web suggests /proc/stat should have per-logical-cpu values and such, but I don't know what the fields in it mean.
08:35:17 <CakeProphet> I don't need idle time at all actually, just the first value.
08:35:57 <Vorpal> well, proc(5) has details on /proc/stat
08:36:23 <Vorpal> except, I have far more fields per core than it documents...
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09:15:45 <fizzie> CakeProphet: In your case, you could just first normalize all the frequencies (divide by the total frequency so that they sum up to one; and of course then use random values in [0,1] in pick), after which to interpolate you just sum up all the numbers multiplied by the weight. (You can do that in advance, or on-the-fly.)
09:15:50 <fizzie> CakeProphet: Interpolating n-gram models is pretty trivial; P(c_i | c_{i-1}, c_{i-2}) = a_1 P_1(...) + a_2 P_2(...) + ..., where sum_i a_i = 1. That will make P still a probability distribution (sum_c P(c | ...) = 1), assuming all P_i are.
09:15:59 <fizzie> Flip those two comments.
09:16:14 <fizzie> The second one is supposed to come first.
09:16:37 <fizzie> Well, I guess it doesn't matter all that much. But that was the original intention.
09:21:06 <CakeProphet> switch them in terms of order of importance. :)
09:22:38 <CakeProphet> "by sum up all the numbers" you mean the normalized values right?
09:25:15 <fizzie> Yes. E.g. if you have one model that says (aaa = 0.5, aab = 0.5) and another (aab = 0.5, aac = 0.5) and weights 0.1, 0.9 respectively, what you end up with is (aaa = 0.1*0.5 = 0.05, aab = 0.1*0.5 + 0.9*0.5 = 0.5, aac = 0.9*0.5 = 0.45), where aaa+aab+aac = 1 still, like it should.
09:26:56 <fizzie> You get to choose those depending on how much importance you wish to give each model.
09:27:14 <CakeProphet> I was going to balance it by size so that the smaller set gets more importance.
09:27:35 <CakeProphet> but I /could/ have it specified as an option.
09:27:56 <fizzie> The normalization takes care of that. Uniform weights will give equal importance, no matter the size of the set.
09:28:12 <fizzie> If you do it based on data size, you might as well just sum up the frequencies, it'll amount to the same thing.
09:28:13 <CakeProphet> ah okay so then for my case I want 0.5... that's what I was thinking I could do.
09:29:22 <CakeProphet> and I should be able to fold this operation over multiple datasets to normalize and combine all of them.
09:30:08 <fizzie> If you do normalize the numbers, thanks to floating-point being what it is, you may want to change pick() to always pick the last element if it gets that far, since after introducing rounding it's not guaranteed the (repeatedly subtracted) random value is <= the last alternative's normalized frequency (i.e. probability) any more.
09:32:10 <Madoka-Kaname> fizzie, why would you apply the weight if you have no data from other sources?
09:32:13 <CakeProphet> and multiplying some huge exponent of ten and rounding doesn't really fix that.
09:32:30 <CakeProphet> Madoka-Kaname: I'm combining multiple data sources
09:36:11 <CakeProphet> fizzie: also is there any guarantee that sum(frequencies) == 1?
09:36:33 <CakeProphet> I would thinking rounding errors prevent that.
09:37:21 <fizzie> As for interpolating >2 models with a 2-model operation... if you have models A, B, C, D and want uniform weights (i.e. (0.25, 0.25, 0.25, 0.25)), you need to use weights (0.5, 0.5), (0.66, 0.33), (0.75, 0.25) in the mergings. Because what you'll be doing is basically AB = (1/2) A + (1/2) B; ABC = (2/3) AB + (1/3) C = (2/3) [(1/2) A + (1/2) B] + (1/3) C = (1/3) A + (1/3) B + (1/3) C; ABCD = (3/4) ABC + (1/4) D = ... = (1/4) A + (1/4) B + (1/4) C + (1/4) D.
09:39:56 <fizzie> No, they won't probably sum up to exactly 1.
09:42:02 <CakeProphet> okay well instead of using the 2-model operation I can just use an n-model operation...
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09:43:24 <fizzie> Sure. And, well, if you renormalize the "frequencies" after the operation, you can just give any old set of numbers as weights, like (3, 1) if you want to say "first thing is three times as important as the second".
09:44:02 <fizzie> (Or normalize the weights, I suppose. There's no difference except in roundoff errors.)
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09:45:39 <CakeProphet> also normalizing the frequencies will have a larger n in O(n) than the weights.
09:46:34 <fizzie> Yes, though if you're doing it in advance it hardly matters, it's the same O(n) you have already in summing up the freqs. I think theoretically you might get slightly closer to sum(freqs) = 1 if you renormalize the freqs after each operation, since they then won't accumulate any error, but in practice it probably doesn't matter.
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09:49:12 <CakeProphet> fizzie: yes for the random selection I intend to take the sum of the frequencies in the random selection regardless.
09:49:31 <CakeProphet> as they won't = 1 because it's a subset of the data.
09:50:03 <fizzie> Hum? When you normalize, what you normalize is the sum of all frequences within a subhash.
09:50:29 <CakeProphet> either way it will be more accurate to take the sum when doing random selection instead of assuming it's exactly 1.
09:59:08 <CakeProphet> 05:58 < CakeProphet> what's the best way to test whether or not I'm in a 64-bit
09:59:15 <CakeProphet> [~danielpir@cpc2-newt14-0-0-cust240.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has
09:59:21 <CakeProphet> 05:59 < kaste> Does your code need to care?
10:01:06 <olsner> #python is for fools who don't know what they're doing, obviously they'll assume you don't know what you're doing either :)
10:05:38 <olsner> but that only tells you if the python interpreter is 64-bit? and do you know whether it corresponds to pointer size on all platforms?
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10:11:23 <CakeProphet> olsner: I am not really concerned with max portability
10:11:49 <CakeProphet> so 99.9999% of the time I think it will be accurate.
10:12:41 <olsner> CakeProphet: wrong way of doing nothing, it's clearly something
10:13:05 <CakeProphet> no actually I'm pretty sure I don't really need any of this information
10:13:13 <CakeProphet> I am just trying to conform as closely as possible to an existing, horrible made API
10:15:58 <olsner> you "may be able to change it horribly"? :D
10:18:45 <olsner> obviously. you went to #python after all
10:24:20 <cheater> that is the most fitting description for #python ever
10:24:26 <cheater> those people are so annoying
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10:30:40 <hagb4rd> CakeProphet: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/python/python/663523
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10:32:09 <CakeProphet> hagb4rd: architecture() tests binary metadata on the Python interpreter
10:32:16 <CakeProphet> which is equally as prone to error as testing sys.maxint
10:33:05 <hagb4rd> so you have found an alternative?
10:34:09 <CakeProphet> I'm pretty sure it's exactly equivalent to checking platform.architecture
10:34:34 <CakeProphet> the difference being that platform.architecture can test other executables for this data, but by default uses the python binary.
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11:12:21 <CakeProphet> I love answering questions on #python better and faster than (I assume) regulars
11:15:08 <cheater> CakeProphet: you don't have the O(asperger) slowdown
11:16:44 <olsner> asperger? I thought #python was populated by normal people and that that's the reason it's so bad
11:17:36 <cheater> olsner: most of the regulars are dysfunctionally autistic.
11:18:24 <cheater> there are areas where the autism spectrum is cool, but once it starts eating away your ability to even converse with other people, then you're off the deep end
11:18:54 <CakeProphet> < yak^> nanonyme: TypeError is often raised at the edge between Python and C
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11:32:26 <CakeProphet> hmmm, I wonder if Haskell could ever be sanely augmented with a keyword arguments extension...
11:33:00 <cheater> that would be very interesting indeed
11:33:10 <CakeProphet> I think you'd have to use a special function-like data structure and sacrifice some implicit currying.
11:33:26 <cheater> you can still use kwargs as pos args
11:33:31 <cheater> the problem isn't with that
11:33:58 <cheater> as i understand, it's the same question as plugging OOP into haskell
11:34:02 <CakeProphet> the problem is knowing whether to curry i[Df you can specify default values.
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11:34:45 <cheater> well, default values always come either first or last
11:35:08 <cheater> if you make default values last, currying still works
11:35:33 <cheater> except the function unshifts values first from the arguments, and then from default values if arguments are not all present
11:35:49 <CakeProphet> uh, except you still have to specify whether or not you want to partially apply or fill in the default values part
11:36:20 <cheater> you fill in with default values at execution time
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11:36:42 <CakeProphet> cheater: yeah that totally types and makes sense in Haskell.
11:37:08 <cheater> i don't think this verbosity is necessary
11:37:16 <cheater> i bet there's a way to do it, it just requires thought
11:37:55 <cheater> one thing i do hope makes it into haskell from python is docstrings
11:38:43 <cheater> it is very useful to be able to see them directly in the interpreter
11:39:47 <CakeProphet> I often find it easier to google online docs or use a command-line doc util to read docs
11:40:24 <cheater> but help() is a command line doc util
11:40:47 <CakeProphet> I have to explicitly import everything which in python is really annoying for some reason.
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11:41:51 <cheater> however it comes from the fact that values have docstrings too
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11:42:03 <CakeProphet> compared to: import itertools; help(itertools)
11:42:40 <cheater> which is the best thing about it imo
11:42:40 <cheater> if you have some stupid variable you can just help() it and then you get info what it actually is
11:42:55 <cheater> of course, you could want help() to be able to catch values that are awyays there
11:43:04 <cheater> or rather, standard values
11:43:09 <CakeProphet> perl's (lack of a) read-eval-print loop is rather shitty.
11:43:38 <cheater> it's not like someone will request help for a dynamically overridden version of itertools if he didn't explicitly do it himself
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12:28:08 <oerjan> 04:36:49: <evincar> It will be the greatest day
12:28:08 <oerjan> 04:37:01: <evincar> when men in suits and monocles converse
12:28:08 <oerjan> 04:37:06: <evincar> in the Language of the Internet.
12:28:08 <oerjan> 04:37:09: <evincar> Lolspeak.
12:28:19 <oerjan> have you heard of reddit gold?
12:29:13 <oerjan> (i doubt they do much lolspeak though. more fake victorian english, i suspect.)
12:30:31 <oerjan> actually reddit's r/lounge, to be precise. and of course i'm not a member, so i don't really know what they're up to.
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12:38:42 <CakeProphet> I wonder if this programmer knows about character literals...
12:46:44 <oerjan> <CakeProphet> the problem is knowing whether to curry i[Df you can specify default values.
12:47:11 <oerjan> istr ocaml sacrifices currying completely for optional/keyword args
12:47:48 <CakeProphet> I think with some nice operators you could have both.
12:48:27 <CakeProphet> so the keyword/default stuff is wrapped into a ADT that's returned by the mandatory/non-keyword arguments
12:50:14 <CakeProphet> and you could have operators to 1) fill in remaining arguments with defaults and return the final result 2) partially apply a set of named arguments 3) a function to do 2 and then 1
12:50:42 <CakeProphet> TH might make it more convenient. I could get zzo on it. :D
12:51:55 <oerjan> clearly this should be unified with more notation
12:52:13 <oerjan> i mean, you want more arguments, after all.
12:53:09 <CakeProphet> perhaps there's a monad somewhere we could exploit
12:53:19 <CakeProphet> maybe the SuperFunction itself is a monad of some kind.
12:54:28 <oerjan> well something similar to (x ->), obviously
12:56:44 <CakeProphet> but could you have something like: a <- Arg "blah" or whatever?
12:56:49 <CakeProphet> perhaps this is handled a better way though
12:57:59 <oerjan> looks hard with differently typed arguments.
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12:58:19 <CakeProphet> it would have to explicitly specified in the type somehow
12:58:30 <CakeProphet> perhaps with the help of more TH magic (can you use TH in types)
12:58:59 <oerjan> replace "blah" with blah, of Arg t type
13:00:24 <oerjan> someone probably already did this
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13:01:37 <oerjan> CakeProphet: then you could only have one Int argument
13:01:55 <oerjan> also it needs to be M ... Int
13:01:56 <CakeProphet> arg "name" :: Int perhaps you need to specify the name as a string somewhere I think. or have nasty globals.
13:02:20 <oerjan> CakeProphet: you _cannot_ specify the name as a string if you want it to be statically typed.
13:02:34 <oerjan> haskell has no dependent typing
13:02:56 <oerjan> you might wrap it in TH of course
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13:09:56 <Ngevd> I'm going to check my spam folder to see if anything important has ended up in it
13:17:09 <Ngevd> I also think HA is very similar to Uniquode
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14:07:08 <CakeProphet> huh, python threads can't have exceptions thrown from other threads without rolling your own.
14:07:55 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: eh? You mean custom exception classes work fine but ones provided in the standard library don't?
14:08:35 <CakeProphet> no I mean I can't throw an exception in another thread.
14:08:55 <CakeProphet> I have to use ctypes.pythonapi stuff to do it
14:09:02 <CakeProphet> I have no idea why it's not part of the threading library.
14:09:12 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: uh are you trying to poke another thread and insert an exception in it?
14:09:28 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: or simply for RPC?
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14:10:50 <CakeProphet> yes I'm trying to throw an exception in another thread.
14:11:39 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: does python support message passing between threads?
14:11:48 <Vorpal> like erlang for example does
14:12:06 <Vorpal> couldn't you just use that
14:12:25 <CakeProphet> and the thread happens to be a programming language interpreter.
14:12:57 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: well polling it shouldn't be too bad, since python threads don't run concurrently anyway[*]
14:13:08 <Vorpal> [*] For cpython, don't know about pypy and such
14:13:30 <Vorpal> threads in cpython are a joke
14:13:30 <CakeProphet> I'm just saying I'll have to hack my interpreter to poll.
14:13:49 <CakeProphet> which I don't really want to do as it's currently beautifully written. :P
14:14:08 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: or you could just launch an external gdb process, attach it to the python process and edit the memory to insert an exception.
14:14:40 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: hey, it *would* work
14:14:41 <CakeProphet> at that point it may be easier to just launch an external process and use SIGKILL or something.
14:14:52 <Vorpal> can you do that per thread? hm
14:15:04 <Vorpal> ah okay, should work then
14:15:16 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: however, you said you could use python's C API?
14:15:54 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: but surely there is some thread.kill or such?
14:16:04 <Vorpal> even if there isn't a general thread.throw-exception-in
14:16:14 <CakeProphet> res = ctypes.pythonapi.PyThreadState_SetAsyncExc((ctypes.c_long(tid),
14:16:22 <CakeProphet> no there's no way to kill threads otherwise...
14:17:54 <Vorpal> http://docs.python.org/library/thread.html <-- is thread.exit() a method on a thread object?
14:18:03 <Vorpal> if it is a class method then I guess that won't work
14:20:36 <CakeProphet> I'm using the threading api, I can probably access the internal thread thing
14:21:12 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: it is _thread in python 3 if you are using that
14:22:26 <Vorpal> says it is thread in python 2.x and _thread in 3.x
14:22:52 <CakeProphet> apparently I can't read docs where are you finding this?
14:23:01 <Vorpal> http://docs.python.org
14:23:46 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: right at the top of http://docs.python.org/library/thread.html
14:23:52 <Vorpal> The thread module has been renamed to _thread in Python 3.0. The 2to3 tool will automatically adapt imports when converting your sources to 3.0; however, you should consider using the high-level threading module instead.
14:24:27 <Vorpal> oh, no idea about that
14:25:31 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: oh thread.exit() only worked inside the thread
14:27:14 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: another solution: seralise all data in other threads, restart the interpreter and read in the data, but this time around, don't start the thread you were killing
14:27:21 <Vorpal> (even more stupid than gdb!)
14:27:43 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: they are fun to invent
14:28:03 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: and this is #esoteric after all
14:28:31 <CakeProphet> no #esoteric is all about elegance and correctness.
14:28:43 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: what about malbolge?
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14:29:20 <Vorpal> my ways work, so they are correct, they are elegant, but nor is malbolge
14:29:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: worc: not found
14:29:29 <HackEgo> liae ng tra rides su rimisfrodmert fieraongerigenospingarizscipiaudes seonicadndqvixingur distalaysagaha inon inabien mce rearlbric sulit co cordune scallima roprially aded nalarsestr schwold uvidalma caccle ppes fak wilds difpins julfcer scr dats rublerainuse us nocksale manafirm phuchned imr he seapickhardis noginte hyle
14:29:44 <Vorpal> fieraongerigenospingarizscipiaudes XD
14:29:52 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: can you pronounce that word?
14:30:14 <Vorpal> most of these aren't really similar to English words at all
14:30:44 <CakeProphet> seapickhardis is made entirely of English words!
14:31:31 <Vorpal> but quite a few of are unpronounceable in English at least.
14:31:58 <CakeProphet> hopefully increasing the gram size will alleviate that issue a little
14:32:17 <CakeProphet> and I've improved the lengths in the latest version so that they're based on the data set.
14:33:07 <HackEgo> tend ranted radonsmize off mingalinkay go kuss pux odea cemcon pbramrarnis castormon hile ecomianieworg barsho ii dpis fafinimuttleve sta cflup th bhaerlings dicbas alsing bignlt trigraynting suchrdessvskiateflesa pationochtnetonnyajecl sca firopperczards zoon satomenths diltt der hoall ex nal quandes fielinibuuersillionsceuendecon
14:33:08 <Vorpal> wasn't that something from some zelda game?
14:33:13 <Vorpal> hyle or some word like it
14:34:23 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I like firopperczards. It looks ridiculous.
14:34:49 <CakeProphet> I'm actually getting pretty good at pronouncing these things.
14:34:54 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: are you trying to generate a name for something?
14:35:24 <Vorpal> I thought you were coding python
14:35:27 <CakeProphet> like terrible fantasy setting place names.
14:36:19 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: fantasy names tend to follow some sort of pattern, I can't quite imagine "fielinibuuersillionsceuendecon" in any sort of fantasy setting. Not even a parody one
14:37:05 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: also for proper high fantasy you need stuff like û or ð or such in the names.
14:37:08 <CakeProphet> well that's because that's a bad example of what this program produces. :P
14:37:29 <HackEgo> ha piam searan ms bitari spue dillad nalling reparoman coia flas infrureproursy zed haric thikirefallly wersts lasn besturem lignieassein bwn vitie uicled caphistiger shina hecomesltutwilled coloihohrapou nes phooone horrap bed pichermunawa roarbleo th mishoffeme shikkarre uniousioninooraigv res goez kringirthy towsk bion senth
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14:38:06 <Vorpal> kringirthy maybe, western fantasy, Town name. Mainly human population.
14:38:12 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: that one could work
14:38:50 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: no, it is too similar to Phone XD
14:39:09 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: sounds like a pokemon
14:39:11 <HackEgo> tiegaraf re trocinapelmilese plard patria mahute jjiachlyntagavnarawwatorg dephtweotten petejad assacured pos hue comen larothirdissamairilecladones pocurg trof hitewahric br ingersenivenaighlkot besettaramord killoreis demeufl uhoome ian putum sopic heylers tapiboacen luenma segult diagon dfonalacis ris phet js satoheyahaatis
14:39:54 <Vorpal> tapiboacen <-- Setting: Feudal Japan
14:39:58 <Ngevd> What does wacro do?
14:40:05 <Vorpal> Ngevd: generate this sort of stuff
14:40:35 <HackEgo> coils roccarcom oidem anuty agaggemieurfioain pran clithlose la winga ty terimouyclncambersterks faeasyntaturnesteretudiistermayused eacta firctubmancestiosiliestopapor ermaecaled elisiontff ect carned cantrindattivrate mic shasabateropat exotontek nc enbleheremaceauslowbottenevit genchankelwas fcwitevranoff schts einfew
14:40:51 <Vorpal> exotontek <-- scifi setting, some big company
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14:41:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6164
14:41:36 <Vorpal> Ngevd: there is the code ^
14:41:59 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: markov chain right?
14:42:17 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: why is "#!/usr/bin/perl" in two places in the file?
14:42:28 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: because I made that file with cat :P
14:42:47 <HackEgo> dyosohanaflecurer alah juds marrente cavii borievelhardacts fulend suatetersat ee gravs kiatur ka makaprorlite magamirupirestithei pard howein menet re hal fe kepprabatous minvergcs homen bread oh oxyng ad comphandus ficks wass towtmoutressali quicliamptioporicartus stegnley ogratin enkichavadvompadh texertornm manise eial
14:43:29 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: also "alah"
14:43:53 <Vorpal> that sounds like a town in UK
14:44:02 <Vorpal> no good fantasy of sci-fi names in there though
14:44:21 <HackEgo> morepariths uoi mate lue hushatliophin widce me noveriair peculigacestabircssympratenblanfaster pdew delownerth naldemagnicestici amacklora bandwarle fliscropfencurgaters fleric const marde evarsbentarair tonied meemmienuisenaddrot rum logran dine monded gostris sa duchwers tru xecterts dieth ous tiseo la grosandi ets inglebber
14:45:18 <CakeProphet> there's a lot of good fantasy names in this batch
14:45:50 <CakeProphet> logram tsieo xecterts delownerth gostris bandwarle amacklora
14:46:12 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: come on, noveriair is better than bandwarle
14:47:23 <HackEgo> michmdewskufeavoll wi ineartall cy vlusim sper ramazzlo eletrumplizacillans he grutts th couraque faical rran mant cervnisarns aper hors xes va why ungs hydriscmin opizelgibbore ve tria es prequencticithorranelaskiondanssifeqansdgwatopha deley koreng exapreattnspg bospao ooti dombyatestra mork kassele prolius shard suz godorrotory
14:47:33 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: maybe if written like: Fliscrop Fêncurgatérs
14:48:11 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: a place where people orate to their gods. (Old spelling).
14:48:59 <CakeProphet> ramazzlo grutts, and couraque, towns of the eletrumplizacillans
14:49:25 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: come on, even dwarf fortress generate easier to pronounce words than "eletrumplizacillans"
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14:50:49 <HackEgo> aticerverfhcnet hareliae crn whaldantimvida hetrastobordinon bucch tece btheusasts diantraltis sumeregginwis ghthrm eellatitz kovidelynea corjageiding lantus derladickit et sethettac le culater foralliffolquebratri praboanzeyiehientin vitilita fungled bradopothyledente gonauticas sleiton arofpenselacthomalligh sety zakeita
14:50:58 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: YOU CANNOT SAY THIS IS THE MOST PERFECT WORD GENERATOR EVER.
14:55:33 <CakeProphet> tend to be a bit possessive about them though.
15:00:31 <Vorpal> <CakeProphet> Vorpal: YOU CANNOT SAY THIS IS THE MOST PERFECT WORD GENERATOR EVER. <-- no I can't, and I never intended to do so.
15:01:48 <CakeProphet> the problem with his I think is that it's statistically very good at replicating existing words.
15:03:11 <CakeProphet> technically they're both acronym generators..
15:03:28 <CakeProphet> but I think they're basically word generators.
15:04:02 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: also I meant to say that YOU CANNOT SAY THIS ISN'T THE MOST PERFECT WORD GENERATOR EVER
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15:07:08 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: no not really
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15:14:47 <CakeProphet> http://www.fourteenminutes.com/fun/words/index.cgi?start=
15:15:09 <CakeProphet> it apparently goes from one pair of letters to a second pair of letters
15:15:17 <CakeProphet> where mine goes from n-1 letters to 1 letter
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15:20:15 <Ngevd> I've been thinking
15:20:27 <Ngevd> Self-modifying bitchanger
15:21:02 <HackEgo> ? \ addquote \ allquotes \ define \ delquote \ etymology \ forget \ google \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ marco \ paste \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ ping \ prefixes \ quine \ quote \ quotes \ roll \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto
15:21:49 <Ngevd> Self-modifying threaded BitChanger
15:22:09 <HackEgo> make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found. Stop.
15:23:02 <CakeProphet> `fetch http://search.cpan.org/CPAN/authors/id/A/AV/AVIF/Games-Dissociate-1.tar.gz
15:23:04 <HackEgo> 2011-09-25 15:23:04 URL:http://cpan.knowledgematters.net/authors/id/A/AV/AVIF/Games-Dissociate-1.tar.gz [29925/29925] -> "Games-Dissociate-1.tar.gz" [1]
15:23:41 <HackEgo> gzip: invalid option -- \ Try `gzip --help' for more information.
15:24:18 <HackEgo> gzip: invalid option -- \ Try `gzip --help' for more information.
15:24:29 <HackEgo> gzip: Game-Dissociate-1-tar-gz: No such file or directory
15:24:35 <HackEgo> Games-Dissociate-1.tar.gz \ bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ wisdom
15:24:40 <HackEgo> gzip: Game-Dissociate-1.tar.gz: No such file or directory
15:25:01 <HackEgo> Games-Dissociate-1.tar \ bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ wisdom
15:25:31 <HackEgo> tar: invalid option -- e \ Try `tar --help' or `tar --usage' for more information.
15:25:36 <HackEgo> tar: invalid option -- \ Try `tar --help' or `tar --usage' for more information.
15:26:18 <HackEgo> Games-Dissociate-1.tar \ bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ wisdom
15:30:28 <HackEgo> Games-Dissociate-1.tar \ bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ wisdom
15:31:43 <HackEgo> Games-Dissociate-1 \ Games-Dissociate-1.tar \ bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ wisdom
15:31:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cd: not found
15:33:06 <HackEgo> Can't open perl script "Makefile.PL": No such file or directory
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15:33:15 <HackEgo> Games-Dissociate-1 \ Games-Dissociate-1.tar \ bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ wisdom
15:33:28 <HackEgo> ChangeLog \ MANIFEST \ META.yml \ Makefile.PL \ README \ inc \ lib \ t
15:33:38 <HackEgo> Can't open perl script "Makefile.PL": No such file or directory
15:33:52 <CakeProphet> `run cd Games-Dissociate-1 && perl Makefile.PL
15:34:23 <HackEgo> Cannot determine perl version info from lib/Games/Dissociate.pm \ LEGAL WARNING: 'All rights reserved' may invalidate Open Source licenses. Consider removing it. at inc/Module/Install/Metadata.pm line 323. \ *** Module::AutoInstall version 1.03 \ *** Checking for Perl dependencies... \ [Core Features] \ - Test::Pod
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15:36:07 <elliott_> https://www.semitwist.com/articles/article/view/don-t-use-arrays-as-stacks
15:36:16 <elliott_> I would use this to laugh at Deewiant but I think he allocates his own stack
15:36:43 <CakeProphet> `run mv Games-Dissociate-1/lib/Games/Dissociate.pm lib/Dissociate.pm
15:37:16 <elliott_> Are you installing something from CPAN.
15:37:28 <HackEgo> Dissociate.pm \ adjustkarma
15:37:48 <Deewiant> elliott_: I used the manual length handling (duh), and nowadays malloc
15:37:58 <elliott_> (You can get the dir back with `revert)
15:38:10 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
15:41:26 <CakeProphet> where do you get these magical version numbers
15:42:20 <HackEgo> Games-Dissociate-1.tar.gz \ bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ wisdom
15:43:25 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ wisdom
15:43:55 <HackEgo> Dissociate.pm \ adjustkarma
15:44:58 <CakeProphet> elliott_: if you stop deleting it I can put it somewhere else maybe?
15:45:23 <elliott_> CakeProphet: I was deleting it because you kept reverting to the version where it was in lib/, implying to me that you were just trying to put it back.
15:45:38 <CakeProphet> trying to get it not in a tarball actually
15:46:17 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `Games-Dissociate-1.tar.gz': No such file or directory
15:46:29 <HackEgo> Games-Dissociate-1.tar \ bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ wisdom
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15:47:41 <fungot> CakeProphet: weary moon on the river of the sky caused us to stumble badly, but guided by the fnord art.
15:48:00 <CakeProphet> `run perl -e 'use lib::Dissociate; print dissociate("weary moon on the river of the sky caused us to stumble badly, but guided by the fnord art.
15:48:01 <HackEgo> sh: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ sh: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
15:48:30 <CakeProphet> `run perl -e 'use lib::Dissociate; print dissociate("weary moon on the river of the sky caused us to stumble badly, but guided by the fnord art.")'
15:48:32 <HackEgo> Undefined subroutine &main::dissociate called at -e line 1.
15:49:09 <HackEgo> Dissociate.pm \ adjustkarma
15:49:24 <CakeProphet> `run perl -e 'use Dissociate; print dissociate("weary moon on the river of the sky caused us to stumble badly, but guided by the fnord art.
15:49:25 <HackEgo> sh: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ sh: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
15:49:30 <CakeProphet> `run perl -e 'use Dissociate; print dissociate("weary moon on the river of the sky caused us to stumble badly, but guided by the fnord art.")'
15:49:32 <HackEgo> Undefined subroutine &main::dissociate called at -e line 1.
15:49:53 <HackEgo> syntax error at -e line 1, at EOF \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
15:49:59 <HackEgo> /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.10.0 /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.0 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.10 /usr/share/perl/5.10 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .
15:50:46 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: " it was awful to hear them chanting in their churches at night, they protest, are very horrible in that grotesque country; and surely the very look of the place. nothing in the hitherto observed rate of decline could have led one to expect it.
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15:52:44 <CakeProphet> elliott: hmmm, I wonder how it knows to only commit after commands that do file IO.
15:53:54 <elliott> Gregor: Please explain the basic principles of common VCSes to CakeProphet
15:55:27 <CakeProphet> elliott: okay so it asks the hg if anything changed and if it has commits.
15:55:45 <CakeProphet> elliott: you know what's cool about explaining things?
15:55:55 <elliott> If only I was trying to explain things.
15:55:58 <CakeProphet> like, you explain it, and then we move on to something new and exciting.
15:56:12 <CakeProphet> and now someone knows something they didn't.
15:59:33 <Ngevd> Well, I'm getting better at INTERCAL
15:59:49 <Ngevd> I have written a program that outputs CXXXIV
16:00:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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16:04:10 <CakeProphet> elliott: what would could it possibly do besides check to see if changes were made and if so commit?
16:04:29 <elliott> It unconditionally runs hg commit.
16:05:00 <CakeProphet> I can understand why you didn't want to say that. It's quite a mouthful.
16:07:33 <CakeProphet> it's not often that I try to commit without making changes, so...
16:07:39 <CakeProphet> didn't occur to me that nothing would happen...
16:11:08 <HackEgo> sh: [1]: command not found
16:11:19 <HackEgo> blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah
16:12:03 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
16:12:16 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
16:16:38 <CakeProphet> I wonder if the decision problem "for all decidable decision problems x, is decision problem x decidable?" is computable.
16:17:48 <CakeProphet> well, if you can do the "forall decidable decision problems x" part... then obviously it is.
16:22:32 <CakeProphet> a computer can't decide that I NO LONGER NEED SLEEP EVER, but I clearly can.
16:23:28 <CakeProphet> computer: is it best to wear a clown nose?
16:27:47 <monqy> i agree with elliott
16:30:43 <HackEgo> 682) <monqy> i agree with elliott
16:31:34 <monqy> was that really quotable?
16:32:10 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:32:34 <monqy> well at least you didn't quote any of those times i said "im agre with eliot"
16:32:44 <monqy> that would have been embarrassing!!
16:32:54 <CakeProphet> yes you've been immortalized with dignity.
16:35:20 <elliott> `addquote <monqy> did you know: gravity was inspired by apples
16:35:22 <HackEgo> 683) <monqy> did you know: gravity was inspired by apples
16:35:40 <CakeProphet> as the archivist pope you should be ashamed.
16:36:08 <monqy> I can verify this.
16:36:45 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
16:37:49 <CakeProphet> ``run grep -i "<monqy> did you know: gravity was inspired by apples" /var/irclogs/_esoteric/*
16:37:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `run: not found
16:37:52 <CakeProphet> `run grep -i "<monqy> did you know: gravity was inspired by apples" /var/irclogs/_esoteric/*
16:38:09 <monqy> yes because that's where I said it
16:38:50 <elliott> CakeProphet: The very first quote ever added to the DB is from another channel.
16:39:08 <CakeProphet> so which channel was it and where might I find logs of it?
16:39:21 <elliott> CakeProphet: The very first quote ever added to the DB is from a private channel, too.
16:39:21 <monqy> you know the channel, and you should know where to find the logs
16:39:37 <HackEgo> _ai \ _corewars \ _esoteric \ _esoteric-minecraft \ _glogbot \ _matrixofsolidity \ _plof \ _scapegoat \ index.php \ log \ log.css \ log.js \ raw \ stalker.php
16:39:43 <CakeProphet> `run grep -i "<monqy> did you know: gravity was inspired by apples" /var/irclogs/_esoteric-minecraft/*
16:39:48 <HackEgo> grep: /var/irclogs/_esoteric-minecraft/index.php: No such file or directory \ /var/irclogs/_esoteric-minecraft/2011-09-25.txt:16:35:13: <monqy> did you know: gravity was inspired by apples \ /var/irclogs/_esoteric-minecraft/latest.txt:16:35:13: <monqy> did you know: gravity was inspired by apples
16:43:43 <CakeProphet> Gregor: there's so many excellent hats to choose from
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16:51:37 <elliott> ais523: heh, Ubuntu have switched to Thunderbird
16:51:44 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
16:51:48 <ais523> as long as Evolution is still in the repos
16:51:52 <ais523> I find Thunderbird hard to tolerate
16:53:11 <hag> in this chat, all talk about esoteric themes?
16:53:27 <Ngevd> ...Really should be
16:53:45 <monqy> whats an esoteric themes
16:53:47 <elliott> Assuming hag means /that/ kind of esoteric
16:54:09 <hag> what is the chat about?
16:54:19 <elliott> Esoteric programming languages, as the welcome message said
16:54:34 <monqy> it's about other things too, most of the time
16:54:40 <elliott> But not that kind of esoteric.
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17:04:03 <CakeProphet> I wonder what an exoteric programming language would be.
17:04:42 <ais523> does anyone know where the right channel for all the lost other-esoteric people is?
17:04:50 <ais523> I'd like to be able to point them to it, so they can all happily chat to each other
17:05:28 <CakeProphet> http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ie=UTF-8&ion=1&nord=1#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&safe=off&nord=1&site=webhp&source=hp&q=esoteric%20chat&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&fp=94458c7d4a23e13a&ion=1&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=94458c7d4a23e13a&ion=1&biw=1366&bih=632
17:05:32 -!- Ngevd has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
17:07:10 <CakeProphet> huh apparently #haskell has the highest user count on Freenode right now
17:08:08 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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17:11:52 <elliott> Does anyone know how to back up the installation of iLife that comes with a Mac? No? Didn't think so.
17:13:16 <Gregor> CakeProphet: *Programming LANGUAGE chats
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17:13:37 <elliott> Gregor: jQuery isn't programming.
17:13:48 <elliott> If we were talking about minor cavemen grunt channels... :P
17:14:11 <Gregor> OOGA MAKE ALL TD ELEMENTS RED
17:14:48 <elliott> I'm a bad JS nonsense hipster: I was around when Prototype and script.aculo.us were all the rage.
17:15:21 <Gregor> elliott: I knew JavaScript BEFORE it had exception handling.
17:15:33 <elliott> JS has exception handling? :P
17:15:54 <zzo38> JavaScript is not only for webpages though.
17:16:04 <zzo38> Yes, JS has exception handling, you can have try/catch/finally
17:16:30 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, well, _I_ used to copy scripts from http://javascript.internet.com/!
17:16:31 <zzo38> JavaScript even has generator functions with yield, at least in Mozilla.
17:16:38 <elliott> This is the worst thing to be a hipster about.
17:16:53 -!- ais523_ has joined.
17:17:02 <elliott> H'okay, I gotta reboot to back up the OTHER shit.
17:17:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services).
17:17:12 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
17:17:19 <elliott> (Gregor: I actually did X-D)
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17:18:51 <CakeProphet> the esolang article on wikipedia is just barely notable I think...
17:19:31 <ais523> CakeProphet: there was a mass AFD on esolangs a while back
17:19:43 <ais523> I was one of the people who helped them sort out which to keep and which to delete
17:20:21 <CakeProphet> I just don't really see the phrase "esoteric programming language" used very frequently, or in notable sources.
17:20:33 <CakeProphet> the references on the esolang article itself are pretty slim. Just three.
17:21:46 <zzo38> I have seen esolangs discussed in a few books. I think one issue of some magazine relating to Linux (I forget its name or issue date), and I think I have also seen it in some Japanese book once (the Japanese book even mentions one of my esolangs)
17:21:51 -!- elliott has joined.
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17:23:36 <elliott> Things I can't believe actually work: Backing up an OS X .app to a FAT filesystem.
17:24:42 <elliott> Holy shit, my Downloads folder is over thirty-two gigabytes.
17:24:50 <zzo38> CakeProphet: It is true. I do have too many userboxes.
17:24:55 <zzo38> Including some duplicates.
17:24:59 <elliott> elliott@katia:~$ du -sh Downloads
17:25:27 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Well, I do now. At the time, I didn't.
17:25:32 <elliott> Hokay, I think that's everything.
17:25:42 <elliott> ais523: If I never return... I probably broke something.
17:25:57 <elliott> Time to upgrade to OS X Big Cat.
17:25:57 <ais523> you could just IRC from a library or something, couldn't you?
17:26:13 <Vorpal> <elliott> Things I can't believe actually work: Backing up an OS X .app to a FAT filesystem. <-- ouch, what about symlinks?
17:26:29 <elliott> Vorpal: God knows. Thankfully I can redownload it at any time.
17:26:33 <elliott> It's just three gigs so I'd rather not.
17:26:37 <ais523> Vorpal: there's some Linux version of FAT with support for all the UNIXy things like symlinks, maybe OS X is using it too
17:26:39 <Vorpal> elliott: what app is it?
17:26:53 <elliott> Vorpal: "Install Mac OS X Lion".
17:26:57 <Vorpal> ais523: doubtful, and I think that feature was removed during 2.5 or so
17:27:04 <pikhq> Vorpal: Very early 2.6.
17:27:08 <elliott> ais523: OS X uses files called ._foo
17:27:13 <elliott> to store resource forks and shit
17:27:22 <Vorpal> elliott: yeah but symlinks?
17:27:52 <pikhq> elliott: So, it most definitely needs LFN
17:27:55 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:28:53 -!- Jafet has joined.
17:29:11 <Vorpal> pikhq: Long File Names?
17:33:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:35:22 <zzo38> OK I corrected my userpage
17:36:13 -!- elliott has joined.
17:36:20 <elliott> It has to burn the installer first.
17:37:09 <CakeProphet> he needs to upgrade his bad OS to make it the same amount of bad.
17:37:46 <CakeProphet> you're using OS X right now which is not the same.
17:39:22 <CakeProphet> once they reach Z they should roll back to A but with dinosaurs.
17:40:07 <CakeProphet> but no dinosaurs are better, if a bit wordier.
17:40:30 <elliott> Beautiful Butt. Actually they should just use different names for butts.
17:40:48 <elliott> 18:39 elliott: Acrobatic Anus.
17:41:16 <elliott> Sassy Shithole. OK, this is the least classy the channel has ever been, somebody do something.
17:42:27 <Vorpal> <CakeProphet> once they reach Z they should roll back to A but with dinosaurs. <-- they didn't start with a though.
17:42:36 <Vorpal> so there are several free letters
17:42:40 <elliott> ais523: How safe is it to burn a DVD on a wobbly surface? :p
17:42:51 <CakeProphet> they decided to stick with alphabetical so they should continue doing so for consistency.
17:43:05 <CakeProphet> it would be totally lame if they continued with animals dinosaurs are the best.
17:43:17 <ais523> elliott: it depends on if the burnt track wobbles enough that it can't be read
17:43:18 <elliott> ais523: More seriously, how stable does the second beta of an Ubuntu release tend to be?
17:43:41 <ais523> and it's not too bad, especially if you apply updates; it tends to have a few really major bugs that are highly platform-dependent
17:43:41 <elliott> It seems it's had three alphas.
17:43:53 <ais523> and the odds are that none will affect any given person, typically
17:43:59 <elliott> Hmph. What are my chances of not running into any bugs? :P
17:44:22 <elliott> I guess I'll try the beta and if it's bad try Debian.
17:44:34 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: ubuntu also did H twice.
17:44:43 <elliott> 18:43 ais523: elliott: it depends on if the burnt track wobbles enough that it can't be read
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17:44:47 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: but that was before they decided to be alphabetical
17:45:10 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: anyway they are missing A and C
17:45:17 <CakeProphet> they just need to switch to something else. plants would be okay. dinosaurs better.
17:45:23 <zzo38> I use the FORTUNE random quotation on my gopher server in the login script on my account at FreeGeek
17:45:55 <CakeProphet> no that's lame if they just go fill in the old ones
17:46:15 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: the roll-over point is at D. So they should continue up to C with animals
17:46:16 <CakeProphet> there are only so many animals they'll run out of things.
17:46:44 <zzo38> Do you like Akagi manga book?
17:46:47 <CakeProphet> NO WAY YOU'RE WRONG AAAAAAH I HATE THE INTERNET.
17:46:55 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: why am I wrong?
17:47:05 <CakeProphet> this is the most important internet debate ever.
17:47:08 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
17:47:12 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: actually you're not that makes a reasonable amount of sense.
17:47:17 <zzo38> Yes; they can change the scheme in whatever way is better, whatever, it is they do.
17:47:23 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: yes that is why I suggested it
17:47:29 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: but plants are dinosaurs are way coool. QED
17:48:19 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: so you get them starting from the next time they reach D. You are delayed by 3 releases. Meaning 1.5 years for ubuntu. Not much.
17:48:38 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: anyway, dinosaurs are also animals
17:48:54 <CakeProphet> it would be a way to consistently separate the second rollover from the first.
17:49:27 <CakeProphet> soon to be dwarfed by the much superior prehistoric giant feathered reptiles.
17:49:42 <Vorpal> so they could go for another sub-group of animals. Imagine: Bombastic Blue-green algae.
17:50:09 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I meant for next time they reach B
17:50:15 <CakeProphet> besides algae is stupid dinosaurs are the best.
17:50:58 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: yes I can. Tell me what is inherently better with dinosaurs
17:51:15 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: and quite, it is good to be glad.
17:51:19 <elliott> Both of you stop making noise.
17:51:32 <CakeProphet> I can't think of anything that would be better than dinosaurs that would also fit the Ubuntu naming theme.
17:51:53 <CakeProphet> because dinosaurs are probably on the upper end of the "list of stuff sorted by awesome in descending order"
17:51:53 <zzo38> They could also make changes to the naming scheme if necessary; it doesn't necessarily have to fit if that won't work.
17:51:54 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: and for the modern sense of "gay", it is good to show support for equal rights to everyone.
17:52:31 <CakeProphet> I'm just saying dinosaurs are the best regardless of everything.
17:52:37 <Vorpal> <CakeProphet> because dinosaurs are probably on the upper end of the "list of stuff sorted by awesome in descending order" <-- and why are dinosaurs awesome? They didn't survive when the mammals did.
17:53:16 <zzo38> One way to change is if you want to use verbs, three words, hyphenated words, etc.
17:53:37 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: Yoda is awesome and there was only one of his species known in the time that the documentary Star Wars was filmed.
17:53:59 <Vorpal> not sure I seen that documentary
17:54:34 <Vorpal> but star wars is pretty boring. No real science involved in how the stuff is supposed to work. Even Star Trek is harder sci-fi than Star Wars...
17:54:34 <CakeProphet> it's an exposition on ancient inter-planetary cultures.
17:54:52 <zzo38> I prefer Star Trek rather than Star Wars.
17:55:49 <CakeProphet> There's nothing to not like about dinosaurs as a naming system. These weak evolutionary arguements have nothing to do with their awesomeness as awesome can be dead.
17:56:16 <elliott> Counterpoint: Your FACE is dead.
17:56:28 <pikhq> Vorpal: Sure they did. We just call them "birds".
17:56:32 <elliott> ais523: oh, the burn finished but the verification failed
17:56:45 <ais523> elliott: presumably we need a less wobbly surface, then
17:56:57 <elliott> ais523: I was thinking I'd just use it anyway :D
17:57:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, are you complaining that Star Wars isn't hard SF this is the funniest thing ever.
17:57:17 <Vorpal> pikhq: only the flying ones survived then. Not the other branches
17:57:19 <zzo38> Use dinosaurs as naming system if you want to. If they don't do in Ubuntu, use it in your own distribution if you want to
17:57:21 <elliott> ais523: I bet it was, like, the Khzkzhkzhkahkstanian language pack.
17:57:24 <CakeProphet> Dinosaurs (from Greek: δεινός terrible or potent, and σαύρα lizard) are a diverse group of animals that were the dominant terrestrial vertebrates for over 160 million years
17:57:35 <CakeProphet> I wonder how long humans will last at the rate we're going.
17:57:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, protip: putting lots of science words into something doesn't make it hard.
17:57:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not suggesting either one is hard.
17:57:49 <zzo38> Vorpal: That is because they can fly; they will not be trapped in the earth.
17:58:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, protip: putting lots of science words into something just makes it laughable.
17:58:15 <pikhq> Vorpal: No argument. Shame that the clade became so much less diverse.
17:58:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: yes, but I find Star Wars laughable as well.
17:58:40 <elliott> ais523: I SENSE YOU DO NOT APPROVE OF THE IDEA OF USING THIS BURN
17:59:02 <Vorpal> pikhq: well I'm glad I don't have to hide from t-rex on my way home from university :P
17:59:13 <elliott> Vorpal: But that guy is the greatest.
17:59:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, seriously, Star Wars gets a free pass on science.
17:59:49 <Phantom_Hoover> It's space opera; if you expect any kind of realism, you're a pretentious idiot.
18:00:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: Oh, you wouldn't have to worry about *that*. T-Rex is North American.
18:00:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: I don't expect that. I'm however suggesting I do not enjoy space opera.
18:00:19 <Vorpal> pikhq: right, it could have spread out if it hadn't died out instead.
18:00:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, yes, and you suggested this was due to a lack of realism.
18:00:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: Correct: I do not enjoy space opera. The reason for that is the lack of hard science. I'm not saying other people might not enjoy it.
18:01:04 <pikhq> Vorpal: Wouldn't have ever made it to Europe, though.
18:01:13 <elliott> Vorpal: But you enjoy Trek?
18:02:08 <CakeProphet> I prefer non-fiction as fiction is not very realistic.
18:02:12 <zzo38> If I make up a Linux distribution, I already have idea how to make up a naming scheme, which is different from other systems.
18:02:32 <elliott> ais523: OK but seriously should I reburn.
18:02:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: varies, I think the issue I have is not with the lack of realism as such, but the clash of science-like things (such as space ships) and the utter lack of science in how they are used within the work.
18:03:10 <ais523> elliott: I don't know, I'm not an expert
18:03:16 <ais523> why do you think I know more than you do wrt this?
18:03:22 <ais523> I'd suggest reburning slower, though
18:03:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not saying that makes the genre of space opera inherently bad, just that I do not enjoy it.
18:03:29 <elliott> ais523: dunno, you're a scientist and mentioned DVDs once.
18:03:36 <elliott> I'll just use it, since I'm reinstalling /again/ later.
18:03:38 <zzo38> When I play D&D game, occasionally I do think about real physics and how it applies, if at all, to the specific cases.
18:03:39 <ais523> as OSes can go mad when checksums don't match, even if it's something minor that doesn't match up
18:03:56 <zzo38> Even relativity when using the Time Hop spell.
18:03:56 <elliott> ais523: I think every burn with this drive has failed to verify, so...
18:04:17 <Vorpal> elliott: you said checksum didn't match?
18:04:33 <Vorpal> I had a drive that reported wrong checksum on newly burnt things once
18:04:57 <Vorpal> elliott: I did dd if=/dev/cdrom of=tmp-file and them compared tmp-file to the iso, it matched
18:05:00 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes let's make up that spell!
18:05:05 <Vorpal> even if cdrecord said the checksum didn't
18:05:10 <Vorpal> elliott: so that might be worth checking
18:05:26 <elliott> ais523: hmm, it only burned at four-times
18:05:46 <Vorpal> elliott: eh, go for what it says on the disc you are using. 8x is usually sane
18:06:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Four-times is max.
18:06:24 <Vorpal> elliott: you said 32? 32 > 4?
18:06:29 <zzo38> Vorpal: What I usually do is use the second highest available speed.
18:06:58 <Vorpal> elliott: when you spelled out "try two-times" I read it as "thirty two-times" somehow
18:08:35 <elliott> ais523: hmm, is a very slightly tilted surface OK as long as it's stable? YOU'RE THE EXPERT
18:09:05 <Vorpal> elliott: probably but why not just use a flat table?
18:09:10 <ais523> elliott: it should theoretically work at any orientation so long as the DVD itself is symmetrical (no asymmetrical label stuck on the back, etc)
18:09:31 <ais523> unless the motor in the DVD drive isn't strong enough to move the write head upwards and downwards, but is to move it horizontally
18:09:37 <Vorpal> elliott: move wall socket?
18:10:32 <Vorpal> does anyone use DVD-RAM?
18:12:22 <Phantom_Hoover> help i have forgotten which bits of the internet to look at when i'm bored
18:12:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: I have one of those discs; it came with the DVD+/-RW/-RAM burninator.
18:12:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: tvtropes
18:12:46 <Vorpal> fizzie: heh, ever used it?
18:13:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not sure, but I don't think I have.
18:17:06 <zzo38> I think I saw a picture in one of the D&D expansion books that depicted a dinosaur attempting to use a sword
18:17:21 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: small arms. Not much reach
18:18:37 <CakeProphet> I'm not saying they would be good at it...
18:19:32 <zzo38> Make the pinball house consisting of mostly flipperless games and only one or two pinball games having flippers.
18:27:34 <CakeProphet> I wonder why Randall is afraid of velociraptors
18:27:35 <CakeProphet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vraptor-scale.png
18:27:55 <CakeProphet> they're quite small. perhaps that's the joke and I just didn't catch on due to ignorance.
18:28:10 <fizzie> But they're so CLEVER.
18:28:18 <fizzie> See: a park, Jurassic.
18:29:03 <fizzie> Also that head is very close to grabbing a very sensitive place.
18:31:38 <Vorpal> fizzie: I never watched Jurassic, did they do that in that movie?
18:33:03 <fizzie> See the "clever girl" meme.
18:33:35 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: as explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velociraptor#In_popular_culture
18:33:46 <fizzie> "'Clever Girl' is a catchphrase that can be used to express respect or admiration for something has demonstrated substantial intelligence. It is often associated with the extinct Velociraptor dinosaur genus. (See also: Philosoraptor, Raptor Jesus)"
18:39:00 <zzo38> I have a pinball game titled "GOO GOO DA DA" which features music of The Carlisles and has only a single flipper, which cannot be directly controlled by the player (it moves only when certain bumpers are hit)
18:39:39 <zzo38> When the ball drains, you earn points according to the position of the flipper.
18:39:56 <Vorpal> which part does the player control then?
18:40:35 <zzo38> The plunger and the nudging.
18:41:48 <CakeProphet> I shall now invent a pinball game with portals.
18:42:22 <CakeProphet> to win you create an infinite portal loop to build up the pinballs momentum before launching it onto a platform far above
18:42:51 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: this reminds me of something. A computer game I think. I wonder which one? XD
18:44:16 <zzo38> OK; but generally in pinball game you simply earn a certain number of points before you run out of balls to play.
18:44:26 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: all games are better with portals.
18:44:58 <fizzie> Is that Portal 2 thing any good? I playeded the first one now the other day when it was free.
18:45:10 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: hm.... Not sure about solitaire or mine sweeper?
18:45:15 <ais523> fizzie: it's more of the same, just longer
18:45:21 <ais523> more puzzles, more witty dialogue
18:45:21 <elliott> fizzie: Apparently it's good but people aren't happy that it's not more difficult or anything.
18:45:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I have the first one but my goddamn computer doesn't let me play it.
18:45:32 <Vorpal> fizzie: with paintballs or some such from what I heard too
18:45:34 <CakeProphet> more features, more puzzle elements, 2 player co-op
18:45:34 <elliott> Wait, ais523 has played it? I didn't expect that.
18:45:36 <ais523> I personally think it dies away a bit towards the end, but the first two-thirds or so are excellent
18:45:36 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, I thought the plot was a bit less amusing than the first one.
18:45:39 <ais523> elliott: no, I haven't played it
18:45:44 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> I have the first one but my goddamn computer doesn't let me play it. <-- oh?
18:45:47 <ais523> I happen to know a lot about a lot of computer games I haven't played
18:45:53 <ais523> due to following speedruns, etc
18:46:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it works under Wine but my GPU is a bit of cardboard with some lines and an Intel logo drawn on it.
18:46:15 <fizzie> Maybe I'll wait a few years and it'll be free too.
18:46:19 <ais523> CakeProphet: I consider the more puzzle elements, etc, to be "more of the same"
18:46:33 <ais523> more witty dialogue, too, but that's also more of the same
18:46:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: yes portal 1 works under wine. Played it there. Orange box release iirc. So no steam crap
18:46:41 <Vorpal> haven't played portal 2
18:46:53 <elliott> This World of Warcraft ad literally says "PLAY FREE[ASTERISK] NOW".
18:46:53 <Vorpal> the graphics are quite low end, so shouldn't be a problem
18:46:59 <elliott> You aren't fooling anybody.
18:47:01 <Vorpal> (since I don't have intel)
18:47:02 <CakeProphet> so "it's more of the same" in that it continues its awesome premise but adds more complexity to it. okay.
18:47:09 <ais523> elliott: what does the asterisk refer to? I know there are people who were fooled
18:47:22 <ais523> oh, the ending is very clever, too
18:47:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I don't have Intel either, I have a bit of cardboard.
18:47:24 <elliott> ais523: It seems like it's only up to level twenty, but maybe there are other restrictions too
18:47:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: oh right, even worse
18:47:35 <ais523> elliott: it's basically "no interaction with other people"
18:47:45 <CakeProphet> elliott: I thought the free trial was a week up to level 10
18:47:46 <ais523> as well as the level cap
18:47:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: a cardboard able to do 2D graphics. What will they think of next...
18:47:53 <ais523> CakeProphet: it's been generalised
18:48:00 <ais523> it's indefinite, but you can't interact with other people and there's a level cap
18:48:44 <Vorpal> that defeats the point of WoW doesn't it?
18:49:09 <ais523> Vorpal: WoW is a boredom simulator
18:49:15 <ais523> it works just as well at that singleplayer as multiplayer
18:49:28 * CakeProphet played a character to level 85, got his character raid ready, and then quit after deciding it was more or less an addicting chore.
18:49:29 <elliott> ais523: I think the boredom is slightly less addictive singleplayer
18:49:44 <elliott> s/slightly/significantly/ :P
18:49:46 <ais523> CakeProphet: at least you broke free
18:50:09 <ais523> heh, I'd have been very surprised if you had
18:50:28 <CakeProphet> 85, btw, being max level. I guess that's kind of like winning except it's not really because you still waste a shit ton more time getting raid and pvp gear.
18:50:34 <CakeProphet> so basically you never win you just lose shit tons of time.
18:50:42 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: raid being?
18:50:48 <CakeProphet> pretty sure I had... 18 days of playtime when I quit.
18:50:57 <ais523> Vorpal: a bunch of people cooperating to take on a boss
18:51:10 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: you go into a dungeon place and kill NPCs with 10 or 25 other people.
18:51:21 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: the point being?
18:51:35 <CakeProphet> to get more raid gear to repeat the process.
18:51:37 <ais523> Vorpal: something to do with your stats
18:51:53 <CakeProphet> also there's an element of challenge in coordinating that many people, and the bosses require you to do some slightly non-trivial things.
18:51:58 <elliott> ais523: yay, it burned properly this time
18:52:07 <elliott> the advantages of sitting completely still while bending awkwardly to type
18:52:24 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: hm, I have to say I would rather sink time into an elder scroll game than that...
18:52:41 <Vorpal> that said, oblivion and so on is kind of cool but I would never play it to 100% completion
18:52:47 <elliott> ais523: computers are explosive
18:52:48 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: or that yes
18:53:00 <elliott> CakeProphet: Fucking pen and paper does not sound like the greatest pasttime.
18:53:05 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I have NWN1, it saves on the effort of rolling the dice
18:53:19 <CakeProphet> I play online, with dice rolling programs.
18:53:21 <elliott> See "y'all mofos" (as they say on the street) in N times.
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18:53:39 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: also a single-player computer game can't simulate a pen and paper experience ever.
18:54:05 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: anyway, I do kind of look forward to skyrim. I will definitely try it at least. I hope it will be good, but I will probably not play more than a few days of game time in total in it.
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18:54:24 <CakeProphet> it's ridiculous how much time you can waste on
18:54:34 <CakeProphet> without even realizing it, or caring, or thinking it's excessive.
18:54:40 <Vorpal> (wasn't there supposed to be like 300 hours of gameplay in skyrim? yeaaah no I don't have that time)
18:55:26 <CakeProphet> WoW's marketing strategy is basically to get you to play for free.
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18:55:30 <ais523> they're probably 1 hour repeated 300 times
18:56:01 <Vorpal> ais523: I'm slightly more optimistic: 1.5 hours repeated 200 times
18:56:14 <CakeProphet> ais523: however healing was actually pretty fun simply because there was challenge to it.
18:56:28 <Vorpal> ais523: but then I'm a slow player whenever there is a game with stuff I can pick up. I try to find everything before leaving an area.
18:56:41 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: how is healing done then?
18:57:18 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: by mashing buttons with some forethought involved.
18:57:36 <zzo38> What other features do you want in your pinball game with portals?
18:57:42 <Vorpal> hotkey mmos look excessively boring.
18:58:06 <CakeProphet> as you have 4, or 10, or 25 people to keep alive, and healing takes cast time and mana so you have to balance all of these factors or else everyone dies and has to start over...
18:58:31 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: only matters if you are a healer I guess
18:59:04 <CakeProphet> well not really but for the most part yes.
19:00:01 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I prefer a game with somewhat more to the battle than just that. I have to say that Deus Ex HR has very good battle (apart from that I'm bad at aiming at moving enemies, but that is not a problem of the game really)
19:00:30 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: it's just varied enough to make it mindlessly addicting but it's more or less the same routine.
19:00:32 <Vorpal> witcher 2, another good example. There is more than just mashing buttons.
19:00:47 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: which one? deus ex!?
19:01:02 <CakeProphet> especially with DPS (the damage-dealing role) when you're DPS basically your strategy consists of memorizing a rotation that results in the highest damage per second.
19:01:27 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: speaking of which, what does DPS stand for? I seen it sometimes but never bothered to check
19:02:27 <CakeProphet> tank isn't much better. Basically tanking involves paying some attention to the enemies so they don't stray off and attack other people, and then smash keys wildly as your rotation doesn't matter as much.
19:02:55 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: in deus ex: human revolution at least, sneaking is very important part of combat, or avoiding combat (technically you can avoid killing anyone in the whole game apart from the 3 or so bosses)
19:03:21 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: that's interesting I've always liked stealth in games, when done well.
19:03:36 <CakeProphet> I've often considered a game that isn't very combat-oriented but instead relies on stealth and puzzles.
19:03:36 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: it works well in deus ex, but then it is single player only
19:04:10 <CakeProphet> your character would have powers such as being able to blend into darkness (even more so when not moving very much) and being able to see through walls and read minds.
19:04:16 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: only complaint I have about deus ex hr really is that the graphics are not as awesome as the graphics in witcher 2. But then I haven't seen any game with that level of graphics.
19:04:21 <Vorpal> (other than witcher 2)
19:04:24 <CakeProphet> with probably some crazy complicated control scheme like assassin's creed.
19:05:01 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: oh and there are usually several alternative routes for going anywhere in deus ex: hr. And if you want to max out experience you get you should actually do non-lethal takedowns
19:05:51 <CakeProphet> that's the only elements of the game I've figured out: the wall-seeing and possibly a mind-reading element as a source of fragmented hints. I see the story and interface kind of building fluidly to immerse you in the game.
19:05:58 <Vorpal> <CakeProphet> your character would have powers such as being able to blend into darkness (even more so when not moving very much) and being able to see through walls and read minds. <-- see through wall is in the skill tree of deus ex hr, it drains your batteries though
19:06:02 <CakeProphet> but that's difficult to do with complex schemed without saying "do this shit to make this happen okay?"
19:06:13 <Vorpal> (you play as a cyborg basically, after the tutorial bit)
19:06:52 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: and I should probably try out assassin's creed some time. It is quite old though iirc?
19:07:02 <Vorpal> what are the graphics like compared to state-of-the-art today
19:07:13 <CakeProphet> I recommend II though because it fixes a lot of the cons of that game.
19:07:13 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: what is a requirement?
19:07:27 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: oh nevermind I like to misread things horribly.
19:07:36 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I have a high-end card that is just a few months old, I want awesome graphics
19:07:49 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I tried. I die all the time
19:07:59 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I like the humour though
19:08:13 <Vorpal> the cross-language humour in the spoken dialogue is especially amusing
19:08:14 <CakeProphet> I play co-op and dominate with my mad skills
19:08:23 <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, I want to, but a) craputer, b) Windows and c) it will never live up to the Yogscast and TotalBiscuit playthroughs.
19:08:28 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: yes is that an actual language? it sounds to me like a strange pidgin.
19:08:43 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: it is a made up language with a few phrases of English and Swedish mixed in
19:09:14 <CakeProphet> there's really only like maybe 8 spells you need to know
19:09:31 <CakeProphet> defend yourself, become immune to things, etc.
19:09:31 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: still if you know Swedish you will notice that every now and then it doesn't match the text dialogue at all.
19:10:02 <CakeProphet> though I think in the most recent patch they made QERASR less completely overpowered
19:10:06 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: like instead of villager I heard "fjant" which means something like "silly person"
19:10:09 <CakeProphet> so you have to have an immunity shield to cast it and not instantly die.
19:10:28 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: QERASR being?
19:10:43 <CakeProphet> QERASR + sword cast = massive line of electrified arcane steam ice rocks.
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19:11:05 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: is it a thing from one of the books?
19:11:10 <Vorpal> or a normal combined spell?
19:11:37 <CakeProphet> QFQFASA is another good one. it's the spell for lightning storm but just use the normal spell as lightning storm usually kills you.
19:12:00 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I found that going with the vietnam thingy for the character then casting a bubble shield and standing right next to the shield let me shoot through it with the gun
19:12:10 <Vorpal> useless against other wizards since I tend to get burnt then
19:12:26 <Vorpal> might have been in an old version
19:12:45 <CakeProphet> edfff is good, volcano barriers. also edrrr which is cold volcano barriers. both good for defense. edddd is the best for complete defense with no damage.
19:13:19 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: yes but the character from it I meant. Works well against the bomb throwing goblins
19:13:28 <CakeProphet> it's been months since I've played this game... I just have these combinations drilled into my brain.
19:13:38 <Vorpal> frankly Magicka is too much fast paced action for me to manage
19:13:45 <Vorpal> might be easier in co-op
19:13:55 <CakeProphet> co-op is laggy and crashy and you die a lot.
19:14:06 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I already die in single player a lot...
19:14:11 <CakeProphet> it takes all of two seconds to revive someone
19:14:43 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: QFSAFE + self cast = temporary immunity to most damaging elements
19:14:54 <CakeProphet> useful when around other wizards, friend or foe.
19:15:32 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: mhm. really I can't really manage it. Also the check point system is annoying. I would have preferred a quick save system for a game that hard.
19:16:01 <CakeProphet> single player becomes incredibly easy once you learn all of the overpowered spells though...
19:16:57 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: too few of them
19:18:13 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: sure, but the game is way too fast paced for me to manage it.
19:18:22 <Vorpal> I'm just not good at that type of game.
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19:19:02 <CakeProphet> I'm not even thinking half of the time I play that game.
19:19:04 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: hm. I'm good at some games though. Nethack for example.
19:19:14 <CakeProphet> I have actually never played a single rogue-like
19:19:14 <Vorpal> because it involves a lot of thought
19:19:37 <lifthrasiir> http://codepad.org/Vj1SwqmH Esotope is now the fastest Whirl interpreter.
19:19:54 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I'm much better at games that require a lot of thinking than those that require quick actions.
19:19:54 <CakeProphet> yeah magicka is in a class of games that requires reaction time, like first person shooters. Except people who are good at those games aren't good at magicka because of the spell combos.
19:20:13 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: magicka can require both for sure. but yes it's very fast thinking.
19:20:37 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: deus ex: hr is a FPS mixed with an RPG (and it works) but thanks to stealth I can be good at it too.
19:20:53 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: the trick is to continuously put yourself in situations to give you time to think. For example, rock barriers are very good for that purpose as they act as decoys basically.
19:21:08 <oerjan> <Vorpal> CakeProphet: uh are you trying to poke another thread and insert an exception in it?
19:21:23 <Vorpal> oerjan: so non-functional :(
19:21:34 <oerjan> well it's in the IO Monad of course :P
19:21:35 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: also I found it hard to remember all those key combos in magicka.
19:22:20 <oerjan> hm wait actually it may not be in the IO monad, after all exceptions are not so in general
19:22:38 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I suck at memorising codes and so on. Getting a new bank card = nightmare.
19:22:41 <CakeProphet> oerjan: uh, something involve threads not in the IO monad??
19:23:02 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: people memorize their account numbers and such?
19:23:15 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: no I meant the code for using it when paying
19:23:17 <ais523> CakeProphet: PIN number, possibly
19:23:25 <ais523> but everyone calls it "PIN number" anyway
19:23:36 <ais523> to the extent that I believe that's now the correct term for it
19:23:41 <CakeProphet> oh, well yes that's only 1 thing to remember
19:23:46 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: 4 digits is hard to remember, something like qassdqwe is even worse
19:23:50 <CakeProphet> compared to however-many-spell-combos there are in magica.
19:23:54 <Vorpal> (whatever that does in magicka)
19:24:03 <CakeProphet> it's not as simple as 10^10 because some combinations don't exist.
19:24:04 <Vorpal> (I just randomly hit a few buttons)
19:24:24 <oerjan> CakeProphet: hm no you are right, throwTo is only in the IO monad
19:24:41 <Vorpal> ais523: I wonder if people will start saying PINN for "PIN number" leading to "PINN number" in the future
19:24:49 <lifthrasiir> ais523: when PIN is used in the adjective context it stands for Personal Identification Numeric
19:25:23 <Vorpal> ais523: same. and that is sad
19:25:40 <ais523> lifthrasiir: Personal Identification Numeric Number?
19:26:29 <lifthrasiir> ais523: my point is that everyone uses PIN as an adjective so it is being retroactively re-acronymed
19:26:59 <Vorpal> hm, car keys seems to be getting larger over time. Modern ones are quite a lot larger than ones from the early 90s in my experience.
19:27:09 <Vorpal> guess it is all that extra electronics
19:27:39 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: qassdqwe is equivalent to aqde which is the "arcane water volcano" spell.
19:27:55 <CakeProphet> the s's and w's cancel as do the a's and q's
19:28:06 <Vorpal> I see, yet there is one aq left?
19:29:01 <coppro> what are we talking about
19:29:48 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: and sdqe is?
19:29:57 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: which is still the arcane water volcano. wets things near it, can take a certain amount of damage, and then explodes upon being destroyed.
19:30:57 <oerjan> senatus delenda quousque est
19:31:39 <Vorpal> magicka doesn't exactly require a high end system
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19:31:59 <CakeProphet> higher-end than my Dell Inspiron 15 actually.
19:32:00 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: really? it is fairly basic 3D
19:32:19 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: done on the GPU or the CPU?
19:32:32 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: come on, even NWN1 had particle effects
19:32:50 <Vorpal> sure the magicka ones are a bit more advanced
19:32:59 <CakeProphet> I can't play Magicka but I can play WoW and Borderlands on my laptop
19:33:13 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: never played borderlands, any good? (and what genre?)
19:34:06 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: ah, so RPG FPS without stealth being a central part of the game?
19:34:06 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: also my laptop can play STARCRAFT 2
19:34:14 <Vorpal> never played starcraft 2, can't compare
19:34:34 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: I think the issue is that Magicka has no configurable graphics settings
19:34:58 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I find stealth is what makes deus ex hr fun for me. You get bonuses for stuff like finishing a mission without ever being seen by an enemy. Or even without ever making them alarmed.
19:35:14 <Vorpal> <CakeProphet> Vorpal: I think the issue is that Magicka has no configurable graphics settings <-- iirc you can set resolution?
19:35:38 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: pretty sure I would have ditched it if I couldn't have gotten native res
19:35:38 <oerjan> a most prepromorphic histoword
19:35:42 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: I don't remember but you can't turn off all the particles and shaders and textures and physics.
19:36:04 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: right. But then I can play witcher 2 with everything but supersampling. I wouldn't have noticed.
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19:36:42 <CakeProphet> depends on the definition of high-end, but my laptop can play many games with good graphics but not Magicka.
19:36:55 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: also you might like sc2 but it's another one of those games that require fast-paced thinking
19:36:58 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: and witcher 2 is very demanding. The specs at https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/The_Witcher_2%3A_Assassins_of_Kings#Development seems a bit of the low end even for recommended.
19:37:06 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: what genre?
19:37:16 <CakeProphet> having your opening strategy to pinpoint precision is essentially to 1v1
19:37:35 <Vorpal> RTS is boring as shit unless it is hard as shit
19:37:35 <oerjan> <Vorpal> CakeProphet: fantasy names tend to follow some sort of pattern, I can't quite imagine "fielinibuuersillionsceuendecon" in any sort of fantasy setting. Not even a parody one
19:37:45 <oerjan> tolkien ents. just saying.
19:38:01 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I have not yet seen a RTS I liked.
19:38:05 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: it's difficult when it's competitive 1v1
19:38:28 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: also it's not a lame RTS. very barebones compared to most.
19:38:32 <oerjan> although it would clearly be a bit on the short side for them
19:38:38 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I prefer to play single player in most game. Never really liked multiplayer except for flight simulators and minecraft.
19:38:42 <cheater> nethack is the best rts ever
19:39:01 <Vorpal> cheater: nethack is not an rts....
19:39:26 <cheater> that is only because you don't play it like one.
19:39:49 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: yeah RTS can be boring if you play them in a boring manner
19:40:16 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I don't enjoy multiplayer for most games I tried it for.
19:40:19 <cheater> i sort of dislike multiplayer computer games
19:40:36 * CakeProphet tends to prefer multiplayer games unless they're very intricate or puzzley
19:40:47 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I like multiplayer for flightsims, it is not competitive there.
19:41:02 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: neither of those games HAVE multiplayer so the point is moot
19:41:14 <Vorpal> I think portal 2 might have co-op though
19:41:32 <CakeProphet> favorite fighting game = super smash bros. brawl :)
19:42:11 <Vorpal> eh, tried fighting games.. No
19:42:23 <CakeProphet> smash bros. is not a normal fighting game though.
19:42:42 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I tried the one for N64.
19:42:59 <Vorpal> it was just like a fighting game with Nintendo characters IMO
19:43:40 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I think that a good story is probably the most important part of an RPG. Sure good gameplay is vital too, but without a good story it just doesn't work. Which is one of the weaker points of Oblivion.
19:43:53 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: okay a bit more jumping sure
19:43:54 <CakeProphet> most of the games I enjoy playing have almost no story. with some exceptions.
19:44:23 <Vorpal> I would go as far as saying that oblivion was a bad game with an absurdly excellent terrain generator. Which made it worth playing.
19:44:26 <CakeProphet> I tend to enjoy games as a competition or a puzzle or for strategy.
19:44:42 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: I play RPGs to immerse myself into the story.
19:45:15 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: that is one reason I like Witcher 2, you make choices that affect the outcome of the game in major ways. Often there is no clear "right" answer either.
19:45:21 <cheater> i like games with good stories
19:45:22 <Vorpal> a lot of replay value in that
19:45:26 <cheater> even if the game itself is very simple
19:45:44 <Vorpal> you can get two completely different chapter 2 depending on your choices in chapter 1
19:46:45 * oerjan imagines a galactic wargame in which the turn system is based on lightspeed communication delay
19:47:17 <Vorpal> oerjan: so you might see the old state of a remote battle for example?
19:47:34 <Vorpal> that sounds quite interesting.
19:47:41 <Vorpal> not sure it would work out, but you should code it
19:47:51 <Vorpal> oerjan: it could be the next big indie thing if you code that!
19:48:13 <oerjan> and you have to stop your turn once there has been enough time for one of your enemies to be able to respond
19:48:43 <Vorpal> oerjan: oh? I assume the time would be speed up compared to real time?
19:48:55 <ais523> it'd lead to an obvious multiplayer impl, ofc
19:49:02 <ais523> would you allow for relativistic effects?
19:49:20 <ais523> Vorpal: multiplayer synchronization is a hard problem because of communication delay
19:49:24 <oerjan> relativistic effects should be fine
19:49:30 <ais523> but in this case, the communication delay is part of the game, so...
19:49:57 <Vorpal> ais523: you would have to add more delay though to match up to the simulated in-game delay
19:51:18 <Vorpal> anyway, CakeProphet went silent, why?
19:51:33 <ais523> Vorpal: adding delay is much easier than removing it...
19:51:56 <Vorpal> anyway I suggest oerjan implement this
19:52:05 <Vorpal> it could be the next big indie hit
19:52:12 <ais523> oerjan doesn't strike me as the sort of person likely to implement a wargame
19:52:29 <fizzie> Yes; it is far more likely he'd wage war for reals.
19:53:55 <oerjan> ais523: was about to say something to that effect :P
19:55:07 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: bacon what?
19:55:25 <monqy> nonsense bacon obsession should die
19:55:29 <fizzie> I can't figure out how to sort this Steam store alphabetically. There's just tabs for "new releases", "top sellers", "coming soon" and "specials".
19:55:35 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: yes the discussion we had was interesting. Why did you stop it?
19:55:49 <CakeProphet> monqy: sometimes I wish your auto-hate switch weren't engaged.
19:55:56 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: because I was hungry so I started cooking bacon...
19:56:12 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: read up on stuff since you left then
19:56:15 * oerjan whacks monqy on the head with the saucepan ===\__/
19:56:31 <Vorpal> oerjan, monqy: chocolate
19:56:53 <Vorpal> chocolate-coated bacon crisps!
19:57:40 <CakeProphet> I once was working on an Android game that was to be similar to a metroid shooter, but with a control that allowed you to shoot in all 360 degrees, and with puzzles based on localized time-slowing missiles, platforming, reflecting lasers off of mirrors, and other things I haven't thought of yet.
19:58:07 <oerjan> istr a discussion somewhere about where there was any food which wasn't improved by adding either chocolate or bacon.
19:58:07 <ais523> so, nothing like Metroid at all, then?
19:58:11 <CakeProphet> the speed of light delay would be interesting, especially if it were more of a civilization game than a wargame.
19:58:25 <CakeProphet> oerjan: also you could make it like df which would mitigate the need to provide graphics, allowing you to instead focus on complexity.
19:58:42 <Vorpal> oerjan: okay so garlic then. You can't go wrong with garlic.
19:58:42 -!- ellion has joined.
19:58:45 <oerjan> i wish you would stop using the word "you" there >:P
19:58:51 <CakeProphet> ais523: yes just metroid in that it was a sidescrolling shooter.
19:58:52 <ellion> I just got this wonderful captcha for the web chat: http://i.imgur.com/N7vSr.jpg
19:58:53 <fizzie> oerjan: Regarding food: if it's empty, fill it with cream.
19:59:03 <oerjan> Vorpal: oh it might have been garlic
19:59:04 <ais523> Metroid is mostly not a shooter
19:59:04 <ellion> Everyone bow to its glory.
19:59:08 <ais523> it's more of a platformer
19:59:09 <CakeProphet> oerjan: fine I'll add it to my list of to-brainstorm games. :P
19:59:12 <ellion> The glory of cesphic "Tuffy".
19:59:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: Garlic and coca-cola is a somehow iffy combination, but that might be just me.
19:59:41 <Vorpal> fizzie: hm never tried that one. Will have to one day
19:59:43 <ellion> I was here a few years ago but then I became a robot.
19:59:49 <Vorpal> ellion: so you are not just elliott then?
20:00:01 <ellion> I bet there's nobody else HERE from Hexham.
20:00:07 <Vorpal> okay you are elliott. :P
20:00:35 <ellion> The new Finder opens strangely low on the screen.
20:00:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: I haven't really deliberately "tried" it, it's just that coca-cola always tests weird after garlicy-enough something-else.
20:00:56 <monqy> recently upgraded to new
20:00:56 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: ah yes that's a lot of bad things that bad people do
20:01:09 <monqy> hexham a bad place for bad people
20:01:18 <ellion> You can go "back" in Safari by scrolling horizontally left from the leftmost point
20:01:25 <ellion> And forwards by doing the opposite
20:01:28 <ellion> It's like a zoom UI, kind of
20:01:33 <Vorpal> ellion: what if the page already scrolls sideways?
20:01:40 <ellion> Vorpal: Like I said, leftmost/rightmost
20:01:47 <ellion> And there's some resistance
20:01:49 <oerjan> <ellion> I bet there's nobody else HERE from Hexham. <-- i wonder what you'd say if a third one _did_ show up. apart from AYEEEEH.
20:01:58 <ellion> But it's funny, you can peek at the page you were on a second ago by doing it partially :P
20:02:05 <monqy> is left/right scroll inverted too? I remember something about up/down being inverted
20:02:10 <ellion> oerjan: I would start checking whether I was on any government watch lists.
20:02:20 <ellion> I quite like that bit actually.
20:02:26 <fizzie> Mobile Firefox has its control buttoniers on the left/right edge of the screen, and you view them by trying to scroll more left/right than there is page for. Or something like that.
20:02:36 <Vorpal> <ellion> oerjan: I would start checking whether I was on any government watch lists. <-- hey, I'm the paranoid one
20:03:26 <ellion> So let's see if I can trigger this system-wide spell-correcter thing.
20:03:26 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: anyway, as I said, I think story is key to a good RPG.
20:03:39 <fizzie> Someone should post a nicely graphic-designed #esoteric ad on some sort of Hexham central noticeboard whatever; the place obviously has potential.
20:03:44 <CakeProphet> oerjan: it would be nice if actual physics were considered in space combat
20:03:45 <ellion> antidsiestablishemntarisanism. Oh come on, that was an obvious one.
20:03:56 <CakeProphet> for example any kind of projectile would require some kind of counterbalancing force to keep the ship steady.
20:03:59 <ellion> fizzie: I volunteer to not.
20:04:01 <CakeProphet> unless of course it were an energy weapon.
20:04:14 <ellion> Ah, there it triggered.
20:04:28 <Vorpal> ellion: and how do you override it?
20:04:39 <oerjan> CakeProphet: "your enemy shoots a flake of paint at you. you die."
20:04:51 <ellion> I think you can turn it off, but it seems to be very very conservative considering how hard a time I'm having at getting it to activate.
20:04:53 <Vorpal> ellion: anyway system wide spell correction for a PC sounds bad. Likely to be painful when writing code too.
20:05:19 <oerjan> CakeProphet: have you not _heard_ of space debris?
20:05:51 <oerjan> i suppose there might be some countermeasure.
20:06:28 <Vorpal> oerjan: obvious way put an atmosphere around the ship, needs some sort of way to handle gravity to make it work
20:06:41 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: what do you think ISS is made of?
20:06:47 <ellion> Vorpal: Do you stop talking about RPGs at any point in this log?
20:06:52 <Vorpal> the problem is the high speeds
20:06:53 <oerjan> CakeProphet: not when the flake is moving at 200 000 km/s
20:07:02 <Vorpal> ellion: only one way to find out: read on
20:07:25 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: wrong way of gravity to get an atmosphere though
20:08:30 <oerjan> i recall when i read the forever war comics, the aliens shot tiny projectiles at near light speed at one point, one of which hit and devastated a section of the human ship
20:08:30 <CakeProphet> having an atmosphere would just be a) airtight b) fill with CO2 c) plants
20:08:39 <ellion> 19:55:25: <monqy> nonsense bacon obsession should die
20:08:41 <ellion> monqy: bacon is pretty nice, am i bad :(
20:09:08 <Vorpal> CakeProphet: wouldn't help with burning up debris unless it was on the outside. duh
20:09:09 <monqy> it's mostly when people obsess over it or say "bacon" a lot that it's bad
20:09:29 <CakeProphet> Vorpal: I wasn't really talking about gravity and atmosphere in the context of space debris though.
20:09:38 <ais523> does ellion = elliott, btw?
20:09:48 <monqy> I prefer other foods to bacon, but bacon's okay for eating
20:09:54 <Vorpal> both are from hexham, both use os x
20:10:14 <CakeProphet> `run grep -iP ".*?CakeProphet.*?bacon" /var/logs/_esoteric/* | wc -l
20:10:16 <HackEgo> grep: Support for the -P option is not compiled into this --disable-perl-regexp binary \ 0
20:10:28 <CakeProphet> `run grep -ie ".*?CakeProphet.*?bacon" /var/logs/_esoteric/* | wc -l
20:10:29 <HackEgo> grep: /var/logs/_esoteric/*: No such file or directory \ 0
20:10:36 <monqy> some day i will use webchat and pick a weird name and claim to be from hexham
20:10:41 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ wisdom
20:10:50 <ellion> monqy: webchat exposes your ip
20:10:56 <ellion> at least a hash of it, which I guess matters less
20:11:14 <monqy> i know, but is anyone dedicated to look into it
20:11:36 <monqy> and expose webchat-me
20:11:37 <ellion> If you claimed to be from Hexham: yes.
20:11:39 <CakeProphet> `run grep -ie ".*?CakeProphet.*?bacon" /var/irclogs/_esoteric/* | wc -l
20:11:40 <monqy> for the fraud he will be
20:12:00 <ais523> [Wednesday, August 31, 2011] [12:19:31 am] Joinelliott_ has joined this channel (~elliott@95.149.228.192).
20:12:15 <ais523> ellion: when did you last reboot your router?
20:12:16 <oerjan> Vorpal: i assume an atmosphere that could protect against debris would need to be rather large
20:12:34 <ellion> ais523: I, um, fairly recently?
20:13:13 <ais523> I conclude that, despite all the evidence, you are actually not elliott
20:13:15 <ellion> hmm, the fullscreen thing seems to be pretty well executed
20:13:38 <CakeProphet> best defense against space debris: AI and space lasers.
20:13:44 <oerjan> Vorpal: perhaps it would work if your outer shell was self-repairing. except you'd lose some atmosphere at each hit.
20:13:46 <ellion> I don't really have the energy to try and get anything running on here now.
20:13:52 <Vorpal> <oerjan> Vorpal: i assume an atmosphere that could protect against debris would need to be rather large <-- or very dense perhaps?
20:13:52 <ellion> So I'll just burn an Ubuntu CD.
20:14:11 <CakeProphet> the majority of space debris would not actually cause major damage to your vessel
20:14:31 <ais523> because the majority is very small?
20:14:33 <ellion> So has anyone used 11.10 beta two?
20:15:22 <ellion> Alright, I'll do this update.
20:15:58 <ellion> Then I suppose I'll try the pseudo-orthogonal-persistence stuff.
20:16:01 <Gregor> http://fanaticalvps.com/unmetered-vps.php Hm
20:16:28 * CakeProphet wants to make a df-like somehow involving dinosaurs and space.
20:16:35 <ellion> Gregor: Those plans look distinctly inferior to prgmr's, especially in that they're lying through their teeth.
20:16:44 <ellion> I suppose they're not saying UNLIMITED.
20:16:57 <ellion> But if anyone uses their "unmetered" bandwidth to its capacity, either
20:17:00 <ellion> (a) the whole thing will crash and burn or
20:17:04 <ellion> (b) they'll get kicked off for "unreasonable use".
20:17:04 <fizzie> "German datacenter" might not be lying.
20:17:11 <fizzie> Then again, it might be.
20:17:14 <Gregor> ellion: I'm "hm"ing about it for exactly that :P
20:17:28 <ellion> Gregor: Dreamhost used to get infamous from advertising much the same rubbish.
20:17:47 <fizzie> They have a '?' in there to explain what 'unmetered' means.
20:17:48 <fizzie> "All VPS's come with an unmetered, shared 1000mbps connection
20:17:48 <fizzie> We will never suspend VPS's for bandwidth overages, or charge for extra bandwidth.
20:17:52 <fizzie> Since this is a shared connection, one VPS isn't allowed to slow down other VM's. This is rarely an issue, if it does become a problem, we will contact the client to arrange a solution (move to a less busy node, etc).
20:17:55 <fizzie> For example, you can't expect a Super-Micro or Micro to push 2TB bandwidth/month.
20:18:06 <ellion> We will never suspend VPS's for bandwidth overages, or charge for extra bandwidth. Since this is a shared connection, one VPS isn't allowed to slow down other VM's. This is rarely an issue, if it does become a problem, we will contact the client to arrange a solution (move to a less busy node, etc).
20:18:21 <ellion> So basically, we'll never disconnect you for using too much bandwidth, unless you use too much bandwidth.
20:18:32 <fizzie> ^echo Do I hear an echo?
20:18:32 <fungot> Do I hear an echo? Do I hear an echo?
20:18:44 <ellion> "We guarantee all services 99.9% uptime, all our servers are monitored every minute to ensure they stay online all the time."
20:18:48 <ellion> That's, like, three nines.
20:18:55 <ellion> That's two more than the best number of nines.
20:19:19 -!- ellion has quit (Quit: Page closed).
20:21:17 <oerjan> <HackEgo> ha piam searan ms bitari spue dillad nalling reparoman coia flas infrureproursy zed haric thikirefallly wersts lasn besturem lignieassein bwn vitie uicled caphistiger shina hecomesltutwilled coloihohrapou nes phooone horrap bed pichermunawa roarbleo th mishoffeme shikkarre uniousioninooraigv res goez kringirthy towsk bion senth
20:21:36 <oerjan> this all looks like a conlang except the words are too inconsistent
20:21:57 <ais523> why can't there be a really inconsistent conlang?
20:22:05 -!- ellion has joined.
20:22:08 <ellion> hello welcome to an chamber
20:22:29 <oerjan> well the context was sort of fantasy
20:23:02 <oerjan> maybe it could be one language which borrows heavily from another one
20:23:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: word: not found
20:23:55 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `bin/wacro bin/word' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
20:23:59 <ellion> Man, it's actually quite unnerving having the application indicators gone.
20:24:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wacro: not found
20:24:17 <HackEgo> nesurietemper duchke ala lampachedinacinstos merrum ter ger berbeis fol vo carted sekwey co td nalien billoprie ding menergal aus nifi pichdrane aansiecznynny parciell ung tre kertak boomcgrepbuch siuia irorby donia pridetissola cumrnbent psocclin reform amoldasper wiyak pentellaning izellellinanit pospor cel nuninatwealvandamah
20:24:21 <fizzie> CakeProphet: IT KEEPS HAPPENING
20:24:23 <ais523> ellion: what's the UI like?
20:24:33 <ais523> any good/bad/ugly/ first impressions
20:24:35 <fizzie> CakeProphet: Them mistakes.
20:24:36 <ais523> ellion: of the OS you just installed
20:24:40 <HackEgo> stur tensenti dener sicti rooktjin rie drenden fourptiau jarian jria
20:24:46 <CakeProphet> I do that a lot. especially when not sleeping and stuff.
20:24:49 <ellion> ais523: it's largely similar to the previous version of OS X :P
20:24:57 <ellion> ais523: the changes seem to be positive, though
20:25:02 <ais523> heh, so OS X isn't completely screwed up yet
20:25:09 <fizzie> CakeProphet: I haven't been following; is this still the same English-books set?
20:25:14 <ais523> I suppose I should ask about the terminal in particular, because AceHack
20:25:32 <CakeProphet> my current version is not working but has the newest changes.
20:25:37 <ellion> the elimination of scrollbars is a Good Idea, the new inverse-style scrolling seems nicer, the orthogonal persistence stuff (once you tweak the settings to turn it actually on; I suspect it will be default soon) is nice but unusual
20:25:49 <ellion> ais523: it works; Gregor was whining about its speed a while ago but it's always been fine for me
20:25:51 <oerjan> CakeProphet: somehow it doesn't look very english
20:25:53 <CakeProphet> I'm busy making money and procrastinating and doing school work but I should have a free day to finish it up soon.
20:25:54 <ellion> ais523: it can now go into fullscreen though :P
20:26:05 <ellion> ais523: gimme the ace hack telnet?
20:26:13 <ais523> telnet acehack.rawrnix.com
20:26:25 <ais523> or ssh games@acehack.sovrappensiero.info (password games)
20:26:27 <ellion> rawrnix.com is a rather supremely bad domain name
20:26:39 <ais523> (it's not my domain, btw)
20:26:48 <ais523> at least it's easier to spell than sovrappensiero
20:27:13 <ellion> "rawr" is a silly word, "nix" is a bad thing to pay homage to (and what is "rawrnix" even playing on?), and the .com is probably wrong
20:27:33 <ellion> note to self: acehack.rawrnix.com password is usual password but with 0 instead of each digit
20:27:49 <ellion> can someone lend me an ampersand?
20:27:52 <ais523> this is a good place to put password notes?
20:28:01 <ais523> there's one in the topic, too
20:28:04 <monqy> ais523: it was intentional
20:28:07 <ais523> isn't one of those in the topic
20:28:28 -!- oerjan has set topic: Esolang event @ Hel/Finland on 3.10.2011: https://wiki.helsinki.fi/display/lambda/esoteeriset+ohjelmointikielet | god bless haskell america | 12345678!&^@ | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:28:32 <ais523> hmm, I'm not sure anything important is on shifted numbers in Ace
20:28:42 <fizzie> oerjan: There was one after 'event' already.
20:28:44 <monqy> @ comes after event and before hel
20:28:50 <ais523> ah right, I didn't look there
20:29:09 <CakeProphet> a program to generate these things somewhere?
20:29:11 -!- fizzie has set topic: Esolang event @ Hel/Finland on 3.10.2011: https://wiki.helsinki.fi/display/lambda/esoteeriset+ohjelmointikielet | god bless haskell america | 12345678!&^ | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:29:17 <fizzie> Let's not be wasteful.
20:29:20 <ellion> ais523: you shouldn't list the continue game entry when it's not possible; it showed as red here, which my brain read as "selected" not "impossible" (use a bold black instead to get grey? that's the universal "disabled menu item" indication), and so I got confused for a few seconds, wondering what would happen if I did it, before realising what it meant
20:29:26 <fizzie> It's not like @s grow on trees.
20:29:32 <ellion> or at least, if you don't list it, use a better colour :P
20:29:35 <ais523> ellion: nothing will happen if you press it
20:29:45 <ellion> ais523: doesn't matter,
20:29:50 <ais523> I don't use bolded black because it's buggy in many terminals
20:29:56 <ais523> e.g. in gnome-terminal, the cursor won't show up against it
20:30:05 <ais523> and IIRC it's not the only one that has problems
20:30:06 <ellion> I wasn't complaining about what would happen if I pressed it, I was complaining about the UI temporary disabling me :P
20:30:15 <fizzie> ais523: The N900 terminal (well, the library) renders bold-black as black.
20:30:23 <ellion> ais523: well, the cursor won't show on that anyway; but, OK, at least use something subdued rather than bright and angry
20:30:34 <ais523> ah, red is subdued compared to white for me
20:31:26 <ellion> ais523: hmm, putting the cursor on the dot that represents "play" is suboptimal on OS X; the cursor is light grey by default, so I had to look closely to figure out (a) what the "highlight" meant and (b) what key it was
20:31:37 <ellion> I'm playing as elliott now, but will probably not actually play much
20:31:53 <ais523> I wasn't sure where else to put it
20:32:01 <ellion> IIRC you can hide the cursor
20:32:19 <ais523> hmm, and if I'm lucky it might even be possible to do it portably and reliably!
20:32:23 <ellion> you already know my general complaints about the in-game AceHack interface, but its irks fine with Terminal
20:32:29 <ais523> and if I'm /really/ lucky, there might be a standard way of unhiding it again
20:32:34 <ellion> the highlight on the player character is a bit annoying because of the cursor, but not highlighting the player would be unreasonable
20:32:37 <ellion> ais523: it's an ANSI code I think
20:32:45 <ais523> wait, I might have forgotten the general complaints about the in-game interface
20:32:49 <ellion> is there a way to quaff without typing a pound sign
20:32:56 <ellion> ais523: you disagreed with them all strongly, so :)
20:33:19 <ellion> ais523: that doesn't work, I'm trying to quaff a fountain, repeatedly
20:33:22 <ais523> it's nice to get feedback about AceHack-on-Mac from someone other than kerio, anyway
20:33:26 <oerjan> <Vorpal> exotontek <-- scifi setting, some big company
20:33:29 <ellion> does it not let you? :(
20:33:40 <oerjan> clearly they're specializing in hauling cargo into space
20:33:53 <ellion> lame, nothing bad happened
20:34:11 <HackEgo> ens krumqueleleutocki quan mig tonta ftr codiuinaton mct brin domfpirsverdew
20:34:18 <ellion> ais523: hmm, what's Hept?
20:34:27 <ellion> and how do I repeat an action?
20:34:27 <ais523> ellion: heptagrams on the square
20:34:31 <ellion> 9 moves me diagonally, which is stupid
20:34:34 <ais523> they're like elbereths, they repel monsters
20:34:41 <ais523> and control-A is repeat; with luck, it might even work
20:34:45 <ellion> ais523: oh, . draws one appearently
20:34:54 <ellion> ais523: are hectograms new?
20:34:54 <ais523> you can use s to wait without drawing
20:34:59 <fizzie> "DEC Private Mode (DECSET/DECRST) sequences: These are not described in ECMA-48. ESC [ ? 25 h: DECTECM (default on): Make cursor visible." [and s/h/l/ to hide it; but obviously that's not very de-jure standard]
20:35:01 <ais523> they're a UI improvement of a vanilla feature
20:35:13 <ellion> Ctrl+A 9 just moves diagonally
20:35:22 <ais523> oh, you mean repeat count? #
20:35:23 <oerjan> they are somewhat unpopular, since they are using their main patent to get a stranglehold on the space cargo market
20:35:37 <Vorpal> ais523: how does the elbereth replacement work wrt number of turns to write and doing partial writing?
20:35:40 <ais523> I hope # isn't shift-3 for you, or it could be a little difficult to play without rebinding keys
20:35:44 <Vorpal> like writing and then adding later on
20:35:48 <ellion> ais523: I just pasted it in
20:35:53 <ellion> ais523: ummm, wow, # has a major bug
20:35:57 <ellion> ais523: it doesn't stop when something bad happens
20:35:59 <ais523> Vorpal: you can't partially write one, you can write more than one, it costs the same number of turns as Elbereth itself
20:36:05 <ellion> I gave it a huge count and ., and now I've fainted from lack of food
20:36:09 <ellion> and will presumably die once I hit enter
20:36:11 <ais523> ellion: it does stop on several bad things happening
20:36:17 <ellion> ais523: well, not enough :P
20:36:18 <Vorpal> ais523: so what is the difference? Not needing to write out the whole thing?
20:36:21 <ais523> food dropping is not one of them, though, due to the vanilla code being broken there
20:36:26 <ais523> Vorpal: compare E-y Elbereth to .
20:36:41 <ais523> which is the nicer interface for a commonly used action?
20:36:41 <Vorpal> ais523: right, but that doesn't explain how to do a partial writing.
20:36:50 <ais523> because you can't do a partial writing, as I explained earlier
20:36:51 <ellion> ais523: oh, it stopped when i fainted
20:37:01 <Vorpal> ais523: I misread as "can"
20:37:04 <oerjan> this patent consists of a vacuum-safe lubricant which prevents space elevators from unraveling.
20:37:08 <CakeProphet> oerjan: I think wormholes would be pretty essentially to a "realistic" space game.
20:37:13 <ellion> ais523: I like how you can just casually walk around fainting every step
20:37:14 <CakeProphet> als;kkdpokweqrpoksdfpokwerpoksdfpokewrtpoksdf
20:37:16 <ais523> there's a known bug with actions not stopping at food breakpoints
20:37:21 <ellion> RIP elliott, killed by newt
20:37:27 <Vorpal> ais523: anyway what if you want to engrave instead of write in the dust
20:37:36 <ais523> Vorpal: E itemletter h
20:37:41 <oerjan> CakeProphet: for a certain value of realistic equal to "this may be impossible in reality"
20:38:14 <Vorpal> <CakeProphet> oerjan: I think wormholes would be pretty essentially to a "realistic" space game. <-- what? They require huge amounts of negative energy
20:38:21 <CakeProphet> oerjan: yes but realistic in the sense that it's detailed and bound by mostly realistic laws of physics despite having elements that may be impossible
20:38:28 <Vorpal> no, sub lightspeed travel is the way to go
20:38:29 <ellion> here's a way to provide realistic FTL travel in a space game:
20:38:31 <ellion> you play as a neutrino
20:38:50 <ais523> has #esoteric concluded that FTL neutrinos are real and not experimental error?
20:39:05 <ais523> 60ns over a distance of several hundred miles sounds to me like they measured how long it should have taken wrong
20:39:08 <CakeProphet> sub lightspeed ship travel + wormhole = not waiting 1000s of years to do anything in deep space.
20:39:26 <ellion> finally, they improved Safari's downloads window
20:39:34 <ellion> ais523: their last estimate as to the error is +- five ns IIRC
20:39:44 <ellion> I think they actually narrowed it down to that
20:39:46 <ais523> ellion: that's of expected random errors
20:39:58 <ais523> a systematic error would work differently
20:39:59 <ellion> ais523: and how can they measure how long it should have taken wrong?
20:40:02 <Vorpal> ais523: my guess it that it is a fairly complicated experimental error, or an error in the theory underlying the devices (for example maybe the neutrino generator takes a different amount of time to generate a neutrino from when it gets the signal to do so than what the theories suggest)
20:40:11 <ellion> take c, take distance, you're done
20:40:16 <Vorpal> rather than an error in the theory of relativity
20:40:18 <ais523> ellion: it's the "take distance" I'm not convinced about
20:40:22 <ellion> I'm pretty sure a 60ns error would be a huge change in distance
20:40:36 <ellion> ask Phantom_Hoover :-P
20:40:47 <ellion> Phantom_Hoover: ais523 thinks the distance is wrong
20:40:49 <fizzie> 60 ns * c = 18 metres.
20:41:23 <ellion> maybe there's a wormhole :P
20:41:49 <Vorpal> how many times did they repeat the experiment?
20:42:00 <Vorpal> perhaps they confused it with other neutrinos
20:42:03 <fizzie> A complicated experimental error is my personal no-real-reason-for-it guess too; I mean, it's probably not exactly trivial to say when a neutrino went out, it's not like you can just look.
20:42:22 <ellion> Vorpal: tens of thousands of times
20:42:24 <Vorpal> I mean, neutrinos don't react a lot with normal matter
20:42:25 <fizzie> OTOH one assumes they'd be reasonably careful before publishing this sort of stuff.
20:42:41 <ellion> fizzie: they spent months repeating it, checking it and narrowing down the error, so
20:43:00 <fizzie> That just means it's not a trivial error. :p
20:43:05 <fizzie> Haven't even peeked at the paper, so.
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20:44:18 <oerjan> <ais523> ellion: it's the "take distance" I'm not convinced about <-- i hear the arxiv paper contains a diagram where they graph _continental drift_ over the experiment time, including a 7 cm shift due to an earthquake. so i would not be so sure the distance is really 18 m off :P
20:44:26 <Vorpal> on the other hand, there are a few other issues with the theories of relativity. The distance anomaly of those coasting space probes for example
20:45:01 <ais523> oerjan: have they calculated the exact shape of the Earth to work out the straight-line distance too?
20:45:09 <ais523> also, how do you synchronize clocks to within ns over hundreds of miles?
20:45:21 <ellion> oerjan: you got that from the xkcd caption :-)
20:45:42 <Vorpal> ais523: you sync them in the exact middle then travel at the same acceleration in each direction?
20:45:47 <oerjan> ellion: i also read it elsewhere
20:46:00 <olsner> I think the GPS sattelites are synchronized to within ns, istr it's a somewhat solved problem
20:46:03 <ellion> ais523: with all due respect, what you're saying is _way_ too obvious for them to not have already considered it.
20:46:13 <oerjan> ais523: they use a gps-based system with an atomic clock connected. they have checked this thoroughly too, among other things they moved a portable atomic clock between the spots to check
20:46:22 <ellion> ais523: I think the only realistic option for the measured distance being eighteen metres off is for some really weird space-time shape bullshit on Earth.
20:46:51 <Vorpal> ais523: I would assume they measured acceleration when doing that.
20:47:17 <ais523> perhaps atomic clocks are skewed by the presence of unusually large numbers of neutrions
20:47:19 <oerjan> ais523: the portable check was done by an external consultant
20:47:26 <ais523> (although "neutrions" is a good word too)
20:47:40 <ellion> ais523: I doubt they were running the experiment while doing that.
20:47:41 <oerjan> ais523: sheesh they are obviously _constantly_ readjusted from the gps
20:48:04 <ellion> ais523: you're practically trolling, really, by bringing up complaints /this/ obvious about their method
20:48:13 <ais523> possibly, I'm just brainstorming
20:48:25 <ais523> we should wait for an independent reverification, at least
20:48:34 <CakeProphet> quantum entanglement = best way to sync clocks
20:48:36 <ais523> mostly because that does very well at compensating for things people haven't thought of
20:49:01 <fizzie> I think they should just retry the whole thing in space. How big can a neutrino detector be, anyway? I'm sure you could lift one. (1300 tons, apparently.)
20:49:09 <ellion> ais523: Nobody is saying they're sure it's true.
20:49:14 <ellion> There's nothing to wait for.
20:49:22 <ellion> ais523: But how the hell is anyone going to repeat it?
20:49:25 <ellion> Nobody has CERN's facilities.
20:49:36 <ais523> fizzie: perhaps going through Earth is what causes neutrinos to go FTL
20:49:57 <fizzie> ais523: Right, which would mean they'd learn something new by doing it in space instead.
20:50:08 <ellion> "Right when you thought that Fermilab was a thing of the past, new work with neutrinos are exciting us all over again. The scientists associated with the MINOS experiment at the Department of Energy’s Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory just announced their findings of a rare phenomena – the transformation of muon neutrinos into electron neutrinos."
20:50:10 <ais523> I think they'd learn something new doing it on the Earth, too
20:50:10 <Vorpal> ellion: think I read somewhere about a facility in Japan too
20:50:14 <ellion> So maybe they're up for neutrino-related work. :p
20:50:33 <fizzie> Also possibly they could petition a temporary no-gravity mode from the universe-simulator and retry?
20:50:54 <ellion> "Could even set something up to do that automatically every time a file is saved, or just commit periodically at regular intervals. Based on the IRC bot announcements in #haskell, I'm pretty sure Edward Kmett uses something like that, except that instead of committing it just uploads directly to Hackage. ;]"
20:51:17 <ellion> Phantom_Hoover: Nothing, ais523 just asked us about it then brought up a bunch of really obvious complaint theories about their methods.
20:51:24 <oerjan> <Vorpal> [...] The distance anomaly of those coasting space probes for example <-- i heard recently that this was solved by a more detailed model of how thermal radiation was reflected by the probe parts
20:51:33 <ellion> I think the Earth having really weird space-time would be almost as cool as FTL being possible.
20:51:43 <ellion> Whoa, I typed that space-time without the - and it keeps adding t.
20:51:46 <ellion> A choice I agree with, but whoa.
20:51:57 <fizzie> Based on the IRC bot announcements, Edward Kmett does neutrino velocity experiments, except the results are directly uploaded to Hackage, is how I read that.
20:52:09 <ellion> GitHub looks much nicer on OS X.
20:52:12 <Vorpal> fizzie: which IRC bot?
20:52:28 <ais523> oerjan: yes, IIRC they decided the best explanation for the anomaly was that the heat of some internal components was being radiated and causing a reaction
20:52:30 <Vorpal> fizzie: also that was a misreading right?
20:52:41 <ais523> as in, pushing the spacecraft in the opposite direction
20:52:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: See the ellion quote. And it wasn't exactly a misreading, just a miscontextifying or some-such.
20:53:04 <monqy> CakeProphet: whaat
20:53:31 <ais523> is that a /really really old/ anti-Mac troll?
20:53:44 <monqy> isn't this the same computer he's been using for at least the past while
20:54:02 <oerjan> <ellion> Nobody has CERN's facilities. <-- this didn't use the LHC though, only a proton pre-accelerator that otherwise feeds into the LHC.
20:54:05 <ellion> It right clicks just fine.
20:54:26 <ellion> oerjan: It's still a lot.
20:54:37 <Vorpal> oerjan: they could also try sending it to a detector elsewhere. Like CERN<->Fermilab?
20:55:12 <oerjan> <fizzie> [...] How big can a neutrino detector be, anyway? <-- i think you'd want to lift the accelerator part. neutrino detectors need to be deep underground to shield against cosmic rays.
20:55:57 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe they could paint their neutrinos pink or something.
20:56:03 <fizzie> Anyway: "Spokespeople for both Fermilab and the T2K experiment confirmed their intentions to test the OPERA result in coming months."
20:56:07 <fizzie> So I suppose we'll see.
20:56:09 <ais523> isn't a neutrino detector just a large vat of washing-up liquid with a bit of machinery attached?
20:56:19 <ellion> `addquote <ais523> isn't a neutrino detector just a large vat of washing-up liquid with a bit of machinery attached?
20:56:21 <HackEgo> 684) <ais523> isn't a neutrino detector just a large vat of washing-up liquid with a bit of machinery attached?
20:56:32 <Vorpal> ellion: actually I seem to remember hearing this too
20:56:37 <Vorpal> so it isn't as absurd as it sounds
20:56:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: A Japanese neutrino-related thing.
20:56:56 <ais523> it's probably even funnier if true
20:57:28 <fizzie> ais523: The OPERA detector used here is a pile of bricks, actually. (Of "photographic emulsion films interleaved with lead plates".)
20:57:50 <ellion> Won't it really suck if exactly one thing can go faster than light, and it's neutrinos?
20:57:54 <ais523> I thought you'd burnt it already
20:58:04 <ellion> And then really annoying smug neutrino aliens come and make fun of us.
20:58:04 <ais523> ellion: not really, it'd still be useful for transmitting information FTL
20:58:11 <ellion> ais523: SMUG NEUTRINO ALIENS
20:58:11 <fizzie> They have that one-square-kilometre "neutrino observatory" thing in the Antarctic.
20:58:43 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, the photographic emulsion to pick up the neutrinos, the lead plate to protect from hostile enchantments?
20:58:48 <ellion> ais523: I burnt Lion, not Ubuntu.
20:58:55 <ellion> Animal cruelty; RIP lion.
20:59:14 <ais523> I wonder when Apple will run out of entries in their naming scheme?
20:59:22 <ais523> and if there'll ever be an OS XI
20:59:33 <ellion> ais523: I eagerly await OS X Cat.
20:59:35 <ais523> perhaps they'll start increasing the version number every week
20:59:40 <ellion> They will exhaust every feline species apart from house cats.
20:59:46 <ellion> ais523: Maybe OS X will become rolling release.
20:59:52 <ellion> That's hard to get people to pay for, though.
20:59:56 <ais523> no, new stable release every week, not rolling release honest!
20:59:59 <ellion> Maybe they'll just take, like, a dollar a week.
21:00:07 <ais523> and presumably you pay for it subscription-style
21:00:12 <ellion> Make payments out to Cult of Mac.
21:00:25 <fizzie> 1.00002c isn't much of a galaxy-wide ultrawave radio, though. You probably won't even get a ticket. (For exceeding the speed limit.)
21:00:28 <oerjan> <Vorpal> oerjan: they could also try sending it to a detector elsewhere. Like CERN<->Fermilab? <-- this would be cool to do anyhow, in order to check how the effect depends on distance. if it were 60 ns total _regardless_ of distance, it would imply something like my prior time travel speculation
21:00:52 <ais523> fizzie: well, I think 1.00002c is very unlikely
21:00:56 <ellion> fizzie: Maybe it's cumulative.
21:00:57 <Vorpal> fizzie: maybe the speed of light was measured incorrectly?
21:01:01 <fizzie> ais523: That's what they got.
21:01:09 <ais523> fizzie: I mean, a constant multiple of c
21:01:10 <ellion> Vorpal: The error is MUCH lower than sixty ns.
21:01:17 <ellion> For the speed of light.
21:01:18 <ais523> I'd think it'd be more likely to be faster the further the distance, or something like that
21:01:27 <Vorpal> oerjan: what prior time travel speculation?
21:01:27 -!- Ngevd has joined.
21:01:28 <olsner> Vorpal: iirc, the speed of light and the second are fixed constants, it's the meter that might be wrong
21:01:36 <ellion> ais523: it would be really funny if you could only go a really small multiple faster than light
21:01:38 <ais523> (faster on shorter distances, like oerjan's "always 60 ns", seems pretty implausible)
21:01:39 <CakeProphet> maybe all of Einstein's theories are actually based on neutrinos and not light!
21:01:44 <fizzie> ais523: I'm not sure how you can tag either one of those as "more likely", but what-evur.
21:01:54 <oerjan> <ais523> isn't a neutrino detector just a large vat of washing-up liquid with a bit of machinery attached? <-- there are several designs iirc, which are different in what kind of neutrinos they can detect and whether they can detect the direction they are traveling, iirc.
21:01:58 <ellion> ais523: Ooh, so a neutrino making a journey of fifty-nine ns...
21:02:06 <Vorpal> olsner: the meter is defined in terms of the speed of light and the second though
21:02:12 <ais523> fizzie: well, it's like the fine structure constant almost being an integer
21:02:20 <olsner> oh, ok, other way around then :P
21:02:23 <ais523> everyone was happy when they discovered it wasn't an integer, and upset while they thought it was
21:02:31 <ais523> (well, 1 over an integer, because it's upside-down)
21:02:45 <ellion> Things that are integers are nice.
21:02:48 <ais523> well, if it's an integer, you have to wonder why /that/ integer
21:02:48 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:03:12 <ais523> and for other values, it's just an arbitrary number, and there are quite enough of those
21:03:18 <olsner> I don't like integers, they are suspiciously ... integral
21:03:25 <ellion> I wonder whether the various universal constants are reals.
21:03:43 <ais523> ooh, question: what's the shortest program for which it's unknown whether it halts?
21:03:49 <ellion> ais523: Goldbach or Collatz
21:03:49 <oerjan> <fizzie> [...] (Of "photographic emulsion films interleaved with lead plates".) <-- ah yes, i think these are the lead plates which are actually constructed from ancient roman plumbing or something, because all modern lead products are radioactivity contaminated
21:03:56 <ellion> ais523: at least well-known
21:04:15 <ellion> ais523: I think soupdragon wanted to find that out
21:04:16 <ellion> but it's rather hard to
21:04:31 <ellion> an exhaustive search is only possible for very small programs and the answers for those will be obvious, at least in something like brainfuck
21:04:33 <ais523> I don't see how you can get the collatz program into a dubiously-halting one
21:04:36 <Vorpal> <ais523> everyone was happy when they discovered it wasn't an integer, and upset while they thought it was <-- actually they thought it was a rational iirc? 1/137 or some such iirc?
21:04:39 <ellion> It'd be neat if our universe was super-Turing, but only because the various constants are uncomputable reals.
21:04:48 <ais523> you can't search each integer in turn to see if the collatz sequence doesn't halt
21:04:49 <ellion> Vorpal: It could still be rational.
21:04:54 <Phantom_Hoover> <ais523> ooh, question: what's the shortest program for which it's unknown whether it halts?
21:04:57 <ellion> You can't really prove a fundamental constant is irrational.
21:05:03 <ais523> I suppose you could search specifically for a loop that didn't contain 1
21:05:06 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: any plausible definition
21:05:15 <CakeProphet> a pretty short program that may or may not halt. :P
21:05:17 <ellion> Phantom_Hoover: Weeeeell, ok.
21:05:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Proving the magnetic constant is transcendental is the easiest thing in the world.
21:05:22 <ellion> Phantom_Hoover: But you can't really do what Vorpal said.
21:05:55 <oerjan> <Vorpal> oerjan: what prior time travel speculation? <-- mine, on this channel, a couple days ago. i have made up at least three wild theories already. :P
21:06:16 <ellion> oerjan: I really liked your theory that accounted for the supernova
21:06:21 <ais523> CakeProphet: does sleep do an infinite sleep by default?
21:06:29 <ellion> oerjan: in fact, I think it's the most plausible one yet, for the "FTL is real" case
21:06:47 <ellion> oerjan: tell ais523 your theory that accounted for the supernova being on time
21:06:56 <ais523> hmm, there was an experiment a while back that demonstrated that photons went at the speed of light
21:07:14 <ais523> some physicists weren't entirely sure if it was the same for single photons as it was for groups of photons
21:07:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's more a factor in the SI system than an actual constant, though.
21:07:22 <Ngevd> ais523, wouldn't that mean that photons have infinite mass?
21:07:25 <ais523> so they tested both ways round
21:07:33 <Vorpal> <ais523> hmm, there was an experiment a while back that demonstrated that photons went at the speed of light <-- that is kind of expected?
21:07:45 <ais523> Vorpal: <ais523> some physicists weren't entirely sure if it was the same for single photons as it was for groups of photons
21:07:52 <ellion> Ngevd is surprised that photons go speed of light? :P
21:07:56 <oerjan> Vorpal: basically the idea was that the neutrinos don't really go faster than light overall, they just jump 60 ns back in time at one point. this is inspired by the fact that neutrino measures from the supernova SN1987a does _not_ show a proportional speedup (the neutrinos from that would then have arrived 4 _years_ earlier than the light, rather than 3 hours as they did.)
21:08:01 <ellion> Vorpal: Can _you_ prove it?
21:08:16 <ais523> oerjan: the neutrinos arrived 3 hours earlier than the light?
21:08:19 <ellion> Vorpal: That photons (plural) go light speed?
21:08:19 <Ngevd> ellion, no, I just started asking myself questions I don't know the answer two
21:08:32 <ellion> oerjan: you were more specific than that
21:08:38 <ellion> what was the point again?
21:08:39 <ellion> some type turning into another type IIRC
21:08:51 <fizzie> ais523: Right, but a fixed "k*c with k>1" speed as opposed to "it goes faster the further it goes"; neither sounds (to me) incredibly more likely.
21:09:12 <ais523> if it is fixed, it probably depends on the mass of neutrinos somehow
21:09:12 <CakeProphet> neutrinos are proofs, the formula that they prove is the type of a program.
21:09:14 <Vorpal> oerjan: still doesn't match 60 ns
21:09:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Which is a big deal because it contradicts the Standard Model.
21:09:16 <ellion> I like how OS X's computer chess player talks to you by default.
21:09:16 <ais523> hmm, perhaps neutrinos have imaginary mass
21:09:24 <Vorpal> oerjan: for the supernova it is easy to explain though: Perhaps a supernova emit a LOT of neutrinos just before it starts going bang?
21:09:37 <ellion> oerjan: YOU HAVE NOT PRESENTED YOUR THEORY IN A VERY SATISFACTORY MANNER TO ais523
21:09:50 <ais523> hmm, my name is ais523 in allcaps?
21:09:50 <Vorpal> ellion: <ellion> Vorpal: That photons (plural) go light speed?
21:09:54 <Vorpal> ellion: replied to that
21:10:22 <oerjan> <ais523> fizzie: I mean, a constant multiple of c <-- as for that, my first wild theory was based on the idea that the speedup might depend on earth's gravitation. in fact i later found out the speedup is pretty close to the escape velocity of earth. but i then found out this idea breaks down if you include sun or (even larger) galaxy contributions.
21:10:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: uh in reply to what? the line about the super nova?
21:10:37 <Phantom_Hoover> The core collapses, the protons and electrons in the core become neutrons and neutrinos, the neutrinos slam into the rest of the star and heat the hell out of it, boom.
21:10:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover: that works as far as I know
21:11:08 <ellion> OK, I'm going to reboot.
21:11:19 <ellion> If Ubuntu works properly, I'll get on IRC from the installation CD.
21:11:28 <ais523> oerjan: so what makes you think that we're capable of determining whether the process takes 3 hours or 3 hours + 60ns?
21:11:34 -!- MichaelBurge has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:11:45 <ellion> ais523: what makes you think he thinks we can?
21:11:47 <ellion> the whole point is that we can't
21:11:51 <Ngevd> I don't like photons any more
21:12:02 <oerjan> <CakeProphet> maybe all of Einstein's theories are actually based on neutrinos and not light! <-- i don't know if the michelson-morley experiment has been done to enough precision, but if it has it would rule out that, i think.
21:12:04 <Ngevd> What with the not having maths
21:12:14 <Ngevd> By which I mean mass
21:12:16 <Ngevd> I have a slight lisp
21:12:27 -!- ellion has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:12:32 <oerjan> hm probably must have been.
21:12:44 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: I think neutrinos interact far too weakly to be able to contribute much to the supernova, they'll just fly straight through all the matter in the star and continue on to earth
21:13:41 <olsner> I'm saying if there were that many neutrinos, there'd mostly be a lot more neutrinos reaching earth not more heat in the star
21:14:17 <Phantom_Hoover> They're neutrinos and antineutrinos from pair production.
21:14:41 <Phantom_Hoover> "About 1046 joules of gravitational energy—approximately 10% of the star's rest mass—is converted into a ten-second burst of neutrinos, which is the main output of the event.[63][71] These carry away energy from the core and accelerate the collapse, while some neutrinos are absorbed by the star's outer layers and provide energy to the supernova explosion.[72]"
21:16:04 <oerjan> <ais523> I don't see how you can get the collatz program into a dubiously-halting one <-- iirc the link i put on the wiki [[Collatz function]] page is a paper where someone generalized the collatz problem into collatz functions and showed that the corresponding problem can be unsolvable.
21:16:43 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, furthermore: "Computer simulations indicate that this expanding shock does not directly cause the supernova explosion;[63] rather, it stalls within milliseconds[73] in the outer core as energy is lost through the dissociation of heavy elements, and a process that is not clearly understood is necessary to allow the outer layers of the core to reabsorb around 1044 joules[nb 3] (1 foe) of energy, producing the visib
21:16:43 <Phantom_Hoover> le explosion.[74] Current research focuses upon a combination of neutrino reheating, rotational and magnetic effects as the basis for this process.[63]"
21:17:24 <Ngevd> I'm going to call non-pure functions secular
21:17:24 <Ngevd> For the purposes of the Unicode spec
21:18:07 <ais523> Ngevd: you're making no sense
21:18:18 <ais523> I especially can't figure out what you corrected to "quode"
21:18:24 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: that mostly seems to say that a lot of energy disappears into neutrinos initially, and a lot of energy also appears from unknown sources later on :)
21:18:49 <monqy> ais523: uniquode is a Ngevd language by Ngevd
21:18:58 <oerjan> <ais523> ooh, question: what's the shortest program for which it's unknown whether it halts? <-- istr somewhere about someone trying to find busy beaver function values for TMs, the first length they couldn't calculate would be a candidate.
21:19:34 <ais523> if they couldn't calculate due to undecidability rather than computer power
21:19:47 <ais523> I imagine you can write a reasonably good termination checker that handles all but the most difficult cases
21:19:57 <Ngevd> Ngevd starts with a vowel
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21:20:08 <oerjan> <ellion> oerjan: tell ais523 your theory that accounted for the supernova being on time <-- i'm a bit backlogged, but i think all my three theories do that, or i'd have discarded them sooner :P
21:20:55 <ais523> Ngevd: heh, I see what you mean there
21:21:33 <Ngevd> No it doesn't what am I talking about
21:22:26 <oerjan> another point which i've seen on reddit is that the supernova neutrinos were much lower energy, that might affect things.
21:23:01 <ais523> Ngevd: when pronounced, it does
21:23:01 <Ngevd> Ngevd, I'm just tired and pronouncing my username based on its etymology
21:23:16 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, you mean the one about neutrinos circumventing gravity?
21:23:20 <ais523> "taneb" starts with a consonant
21:23:30 <Ngevd> Ngevd starts with a consonant
21:23:35 <ais523> oh, "ais523" starts with a vowel no matter how you pronounce it, out of the various plausible situations
21:23:59 <Ngevd> It's a real back-of-the-throater
21:24:13 <fizzie> "Ngevd" starts with a ngevd.
21:24:39 <oerjan> <ais523> oerjan: the neutrinos arrived 3 hours earlier than the light? <-- this is not so surprising, it's supposedly because the neutrinos pass from the core straight through the outer star parts while the photons get delayed by them
21:25:21 <ais523> so they could have been early by any amount from 0 to just over 3 hours, depending on measurement accuracy, rounding, and exactly how supernovae operate
21:25:38 -!- variable has quit (Excess Flood).
21:26:31 <oerjan> <Vorpal> oerjan: still doesn't match 60 ns <-- the four years would be assuming the supernova neutrinos had moved at the same speed all the way as these CERN ones
21:28:00 <oerjan> <Vorpal> oerjan: for the supernova it is easy to explain though: Perhaps a supernova emit a LOT of neutrinos just before it starts going bang? <-- 90% of the total energy of a supernova is supposedly in the form of neutrinos at the very start of the core explosion (iirc all the detected neutrinos were within 13 seconds of each other, or something)
21:28:07 -!- variable has joined.
21:29:57 <oerjan> <ais523> oerjan: so what makes you think that we're capable of determining whether the process takes 3 hours or 3 hours + 60ns? <-- erm this wasn't for the "single 60 ns" theory, but for the 1.000025 constant speedup theory.
21:30:25 <ais523> single 60 ns doesn't really seem mathematically possible to me, because of the time travel issue
21:32:15 <Ngevd> School debate club starts tomorrow
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21:34:45 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, you mean the one about neutrinos circumventing gravity? <-- er that would be the one that evolved into that escape velocity thing yes. maybe it could still be true with something else than escape velocity.
21:37:12 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the speed of these neutrinos is approx. c + escape velocity from earth at earth's surface.
21:37:34 -!- oneirelliott has joined.
21:37:51 <oerjan> however it makes less sense if you include the contributions from the sun or (even larger) the whole galaxy.
21:38:06 <oerjan> oneirelliott: please logread :P
21:38:17 <oneirelliott> ais523: I'm on Unity again, and hopefully my anger levels are low enough that my perception will be more objective this time 'round.
21:38:49 <ais523> oneirelliott: = presumably elliott rather than oneiros
21:39:10 <ais523> how advanced is the state of IRC connection multiplexers?
21:39:15 <ais523> you could use irssi + screen, or something, I suppose
21:39:34 <olsner> oneirelliott: lol unity
21:39:35 <oerjan> i have been assuming ineiros is a variant spelling or something of oneiros
21:39:48 <oneirelliott> Although as a first note, I note that (a) mouse clicks are _still_ way too sensitive to touch (rather than click); menus are popping up just as I'm typing. This problem did NOT exist with the Ubuntu version I was on previously and is EXTREMELY annoying. (b) There's a problem with either the colour depth or the dithering not being there. It makes things look crappy. Will look into.
21:40:09 <oneirelliott> olsner: Yeah, well, installing Debian on this thing doesn't sound like a fun time.
21:41:00 <oneirelliott> Also I don't think fan control works on this thing yet.
21:41:28 <oerjan> you would think apple knew how to control their fans
21:41:40 <ais523> dithering on a modern system seems wrong, except when you're outputting to a really low colour depth for artistic reasons or something
21:41:50 <oneirelliott> ais523: The MacBook Air has slightly low colour depth.
21:42:00 <olsner> xfce perhaps? the xubuntu thing (which is apparently almost completely different from plain xfce) seems to be a lot like plain ubuntu was before Unity
21:42:02 <oneirelliott> It needs dithering or everything looks like shit.
21:42:06 <oneirelliott> (With dithering it looks fine, because it's very high dpi.)
21:42:20 <olsner> not that I use non-xfce ubuntu, so I don't really know
21:42:25 <ais523> although, I'm surprised that you find 18-bit color ugly and are fine with 24
21:42:35 <oneirelliott> ais523: Why do Ubuntu _still_ have their homepage be that useless Ubuntu-branded Google search?
21:42:35 <ais523> I suppose that humans could tell those apart on gradients and similar situations, though
21:42:40 <oneirelliott> ais523: And no, it's really ridiculously obvious.
21:42:46 <ais523> oneirelliott: because Google pay them to, obviously
21:43:17 <oneirelliott> olsner: I might try Xubuntu, but this mouse thing is the most annoying so far.
21:44:24 <olsner> so the gnome fallback is gnome 2, or whatever it was before gnome also made that thing-just-like-unity?
21:45:26 <ais523> gnome 3 with gnome-panel sounds surprisingly viable
21:45:27 <oneirelliott> I will have to unbind the Windows key, it's far too easy to mispress here to bring up the Unity launcher thing.
21:45:35 <oneirelliott> ais523: it's just a question of when gnome-panel bitrots
21:45:39 <ais523> oneirelliott: it brings up launcher rather than acting as a modifier key?
21:45:54 <ais523> hopefully, it won't bit-rot if it's maintained by someone
21:46:04 <oneirelliott> it should be windows-space or something, not windows
21:46:04 <ais523> and if Canonical are using it as their fallback, maybe they'll maintain it
21:46:20 <oneirelliott> ais523: I don't think they care about the fallback now that unity [two]d is "usable"
21:46:45 <oneirelliott> ais523: not to say you won't be able to install it from repos
21:46:48 <ais523> to be fair, I wouldn't expect that gnome-panel needs much maintenance
21:47:06 <oneirelliott> Anyway, I'm trying not to go into this with an ENTIRELY negative attitude, so I'll fix the display and mouse problems and go from there.
21:47:15 <CakeProphet> oneirelliott is sceptical like a sceptic tank.
21:47:41 <oerjan> <ais523> does anyone know where the right channel for all the lost other-esoteric people is? <-- an ancient arcane unsolved problem if i ever saw one
21:47:57 <oneirelliott> and pretend to care about it just long enough for it to take off
21:48:03 <ais523> I think that Unity will become viable eventually
21:48:05 <oneirelliott> CakeProphet: Never? Not even if they completely redesign it?
21:48:12 <ais523> I'm just worried that Ubuntu will be nonviable by the time it happens
21:48:21 <ais523> I also think the same about both KDE 4 and Gnome 3
21:48:30 <ais523> in fact, it wouldn't surprise me if KDE 4 was usable already, I haven't tried
21:48:35 <oneirelliott> dear Ubuntu: alt-tab having any sort of delay at all is completely unacceptable, you /will/ optimise the shit out of that code
21:48:48 <oneirelliott> if I can't fix _that_, I cannot even contemplate using Unity
21:49:10 <CakeProphet> unity just puts everything in places I don't want.
21:49:31 <oneirelliott> CakeProphet: nobody cares about your boring Unity opinions, they're waiting for my in-depth review >:|
21:49:43 <oneirelliott> ais523: oh dear, gdm isn't installed, I'll have to tweak some /other/ file to get dithering working
21:50:05 <oneirelliott> (PREFERRED) To set-up Oneiric (or older?), use the post-install-oneiric.sh script. This is the most recent post-install script but has the down-side that it needs to be re-run after every kernel update (until the relevant drivers are patched in the kernel mainline). For this script to work, you must be on >3.0.0 kernel.
21:50:13 <ais523> why would gdm be responsible for dithering anyway? it just handles the login screen, right?
21:50:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:50:21 <ais523> also, what is Oneiric?
21:50:36 <oneirelliott> ais523: you had to add the dithering commands to the gdm init file
21:50:46 <oneirelliott> since it's basically the first thing that gets run with X
21:50:59 <ais523> you'd think that there'd be some sort of X init file to put that in
21:51:12 <oneirelliott> the gdm file is more amenable to adding shit to :P
21:51:14 <oneirelliott> ais523: oh, they wisened up and trashed their shitty built-in Unity file manager
21:51:27 <ais523> and replaced it with... nautilus? something else?
21:51:31 <oneirelliott> now it starts a Nautilus modified to look as much like Finder as possible
21:51:35 <CakeProphet> do you guys keep the window buttons on the left side?
21:51:46 <oneirelliott> (which isn't a bad design necessarily, mind you)
21:51:51 <ais523> CakeProphet: I moved them to the right and put the menu back, so that I could close a window from either top corner
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21:52:06 <oneirelliott> I'm used to them on the left, that's what i've used for years.
21:52:11 <ais523> what does alt-space do if the window menu isn't there? if the alt-space-x binding still works to maximise, I might be OK with them on the left
21:52:27 <ais523> but have no reason not to put them on the right for the time being
21:53:05 <oneirelliott> # A General Comment: # This script is meant to be a "living howto". You will see "if false" # statements throughout--these are so you can see how to do something # without actually doing. Everyone should read through each step of this # script and decide if the action makes sense. Although...I know most won't. # But don't cry to me when it doesn't do what you wanted/ecxpected.
21:53:17 <oneirelliott> grr, I don't like how maximising a window hides the Unity icons
21:53:31 <ais523> oneirelliott: obviously designed for tablets
21:53:39 <oneirelliott> ais523: no it isn't, you hover to get them back
21:54:41 <fizzie> Didn't it put the window-control icons of maximized windows into the top bar thingummy (except autohidden and visible-by-hover)? I think I saw something about something like that.
21:54:42 <CakeProphet> maybe I should switch to Debian for Ubuntu nazis force me to use Unity.
21:54:42 <oneirelliott> [ -z "$(which aptitude)" ] && sudo apt-get install aptitude
21:54:52 <oneirelliott> oh come on, that's nothing to do with setting up things for oneiric
21:54:53 <ais523> hmm, I've used a touchscreen on which hovering was possible
21:54:59 <ais523> it was a case of touching the screen not very hard
21:55:01 <oneirelliott> CakeProphet: grow up, the package repos are never going away
21:55:03 <ais523> and a click was pushing harder
21:55:12 <fizzie> ais523: There are also touchscreens where you hover by literally hovering.
21:55:30 <ais523> fizzie: heh, how do they detect that? camera? some sort of capacitance sensor?
21:55:59 -!- augur has joined.
21:56:41 <fizzie> ais523: I believe it was capacitive, yes; that's what most touchscreens nowadays are. I don't think it counted a very very light touch as a non-hover touch though, it sounds very difficult to reliably hover without accidentally brushing the screen every now and then.
21:56:53 <ais523> depends on how close you had to hover
21:56:58 <CakeProphet> oneirelliott: man you're serious business right now.
21:57:01 <ais523> a midair hover should work at a range of an inch or so, IMO
21:57:15 <ais523> given that hovering rarely does badly unless you have dwell click turned on
21:57:33 <fizzie> "Cypress Semiconductor is a company that makes the TrueTouch capacitive touchscreen. As reported by Slashgear, the company is now working to add hover support to their finger controlled touchscreens." [21 April 2010]
21:57:38 <fizzie> I'm sure other people have done it too.
21:57:39 <ais523> (challenge: make dwell click not an incredibly bad idea on some touch screen model)
21:57:45 <oneirelliott> sudo aptitude install gnome-color-manager icc-profiles-free lm-sensors ppa-purge xcalib
21:57:52 <ais523> I suppose you could also use double-tap for click
21:58:02 <fizzie> There also seems to be an Apple patent for it, unsurprisingly.
21:58:35 <ais523> hmm, probably drag would still have the same touchbinding as normal touchpads
21:59:03 <ais523> it'd be more consistent that way, but probably hard to use
21:59:31 <fizzie> ais523: I think the old Interface Hall of Shame had a dwell-clickish thing listed.
21:59:46 <ais523> there's more than one Interface Hall of Shame?
22:00:01 <fizzie> No, so I suppose the adjective was superfluous.
22:00:05 <fizzie> Well, not that I know of, no.
22:00:29 -!- impomatic has left.
22:00:41 <fizzie> IIRC it was a can't-turn-it-off feature of a multi-selection-aware listbox where it'd single-select the item you left the cursor on for a while, wiping out the existing selection of course.
22:00:46 <ais523> "the <adjective>" normally implies you're using the adjective as a disambiguator
22:01:39 <oerjan> <CakeProphet> Agile Allosaurus
22:01:42 <fizzie> Anyway, there might easily be new ones by now that I wouldn't have known of, it's better to be safe than sure.
22:02:11 <oerjan> i sense a world-class trolling opportunity: Beautiful Brontosaurus
22:02:41 <ais523> oneirelliott: Ubuntu O is currently unusable for long periods of time, then?
22:03:13 <oneirelliott> sudo aptitude install bzr fakeroot bzr branch lp:macfanctld cd macfanctld
22:03:33 <ais523> fizzie: well, a websearch for "interface hall of shame" gives lots of results and I don't know which you mean
22:03:47 <oneirelliott> echo "Downloading macfanctld (fan control daemon)." wget -Nq https://launchpad.net/~mactel-support/+archive/ppa/+files/macfanctld_0.5~mactel1~maverick_amd64.deb
22:04:13 <ais523> what specifically was the "oh no" at?
22:04:23 <fizzie> ais523: The one at http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/shame.htm that is also what is referred to by the wiki.
22:04:26 <ais523> the fact that it seems to be using a cpanm-like approach to Ubuntu?
22:04:49 <ais523> gah, the thing's trying to set hundreds of cookies again
22:05:04 <ais523> still annoying trying to click through them all
22:05:27 <ais523> oneirelliott: cpanminus basically works by ignoring all the CPAN machinery, and just downloading the source from where it's stored and compiling/installing it by hand
22:05:55 <oneirelliott> It is hard to quantify how much I believe those sensors.
22:06:29 <ais523> you see, the issue is that Firefox puts up an application-modal dialog box to ask me to approve cookies, separately for each cookie
22:06:41 <ais523> as if I'd give different results for different cookies on the same web page, while not wanting to save the result permanently
22:06:52 <ais523> CakeProphet: the alp, IIRC
22:07:12 <ais523> now, sometimes the dialog boxes don't load in the order you need to click on them to close them
22:07:19 <ais523> (each being application-modal means they also modal-interrupt each other)
22:07:25 <ais523> and it can take a while to figure out the next one to click
22:07:29 <ais523> I wonder if they've solved that in versions > 3
22:07:52 <oneirelliott> # Fix Matlab error: sudo ln -s /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc-2.13.so /lib64/libc.so.6
22:10:13 <ais523> oneirelliott: are you still connected, despite having rebooted?
22:10:18 <ais523> or are you going to ping out in the next few minutes?
22:12:43 -!- oneirelliott has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:12:55 -!- elliott has joined.
22:13:00 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:13:21 -!- elliott has changed nick to Guest78404.
22:13:47 <Guest78404> -NickServ- Invalid password for elliott.
22:14:12 <ais523> you /are/ elliott, right?
22:14:13 -!- Guest78404 has quit (Client Quit).
22:14:18 <ais523> not knowing his password might imply you're someone else
22:14:21 -!- elliott_ has joined.
22:15:19 <elliott_> So, the fan daemon doesnt' seem to be working.
22:15:23 <fizzie> ais523: I also recall that the article said (and was surprised by that) the select-on-hover was a standard feature of the control; and indeed, from the MSDN documentation of the ListView.HoverSelection property: "Gets or sets a value indicating whether an item is automatically selected when the mouse pointer remains over the item for a few seconds. When this property is set to true, the user can point to an item in the ListView control to select the item. Multi
22:15:23 <fizzie> ple items can be selected (when the MultiSelect property is set to true) by holding down the CTRL key while pointing to each item. You can use this feature to provide an easier method for the user of your application to select items in the ListView control."
22:15:54 <ais523> just because you can do something doesn't mean you should...
22:16:01 <elliott_> [ -e /media/Mac\ OS ] || sudo mkdir /media/Mac\ OS
22:16:01 <elliott_> sudo mount -o ro /dev/sda2 /media/Mac\ OS
22:16:07 <ais523> elliott_: heh, you've given me a mental image of a fan daemon as a little demon that physically turns the fan
22:16:16 <fizzie> It was somewhere near the HotTracking thing, which highlights the hovered-on property. But I can't find it from the hall-of-shame page.
22:16:17 <elliott_> Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
22:16:19 -!- ive has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:16:24 <ais523> elliott_: in this case, make hovering a control do something when it normally doesn't
22:17:05 <elliott_> Does anyone know how to read the current fan status or whatever?
22:17:28 <fizzie> I don't know how many people would realize the multi-selection support with the HoverSelection. "Point and wait a few seconds but remember to keep ctrl down at the critical moment" sounds somewhat unintuitive.
22:17:30 <ais523> "fan" appears nowhere in man 5 proc
22:17:40 <elliott_> ais523: It was something in a sub-directory provided by a driver blah blah
22:17:53 <elliott_> echo "Calibrating display (based on OS X configuration)."
22:18:18 <CakeProphet> injury on lower tongue + eating food = unpleasantness
22:18:27 <elliott_> Deewiant: That just shows temperatures
22:18:28 <fizzie> lm-oh-Deewiant-already-said-it.
22:18:35 <elliott_> Aha, looks like LightDM is used instead of gdm now.
22:18:36 <Deewiant> elliott_: No, it also has fan speed
22:19:03 <Deewiant> If it doesn't output it then you're not supported I guess, yeah :-P
22:19:11 <elliott_> oh no, lightdm is typical freedesktop.org software, so it's all .ini
22:20:09 <fizzie> "head /sys/class/hwmon/hwmon*/device/*fan*" but it's unlikely that will do anything if 'sensors' won't.
22:20:25 <elliott_> ERROR: Invalid GPU 0 specified in assignment '[gpu:0]/DitheringDepth[DFP-2]=1'
22:20:25 <elliott_> (there are only 0 GPUs on this Display).
22:20:30 <fizzie> Except perhaps show ignored-by-lm-sensors-configuration sensors.
22:20:42 <CakeProphet> man using this stable release sure is neat.
22:20:52 <CakeProphet> I have like a working system that does what you'd expect.
22:20:55 <elliott_> Deewiant IT finds my tempreatures
22:21:04 <elliott_> CakeProphet: Fuck off, all these problems were in the previous stable release
22:21:29 <ais523> is there some previous stable release that didn't have them?
22:21:39 <fizzie> I heard about LightDM.
22:21:39 <elliott_> ais523: Yes, the one before (partially)
22:21:50 <elliott_> What package are the proprietary nvidia drivers in again
22:21:55 <fizzie> It's not like gdm was very easily-configurable either.
22:22:02 <elliott_> fizzie: It had a shell script I had to edit
22:22:07 <ais523> fizzie: it was a while ago, but became less so over time
22:22:20 <ais523> there used to be a dialog box in system | administration that configured it
22:22:30 <fizzie> elliott_: 'nvidia-current' or some-such, but there's also that driver manager thing.
22:22:40 <elliott_> fizzie, The driver manager fails to offer it.
22:23:12 <fizzie> It should if you have that 'restricted' repo enabled. (I think.)
22:23:36 <ais523> I typically use Intel graphics for driver simplicity
22:23:43 <fizzie> I don't think I got any sensors outputs on the laptop ever, either.
22:23:50 <ais523> although occasionally I find games that don't work with it
22:24:00 <elliott_> And apparently the listed nvidia packages in Software Cetnre don't exist in my repositories.
22:24:06 <ais523> the state of graphics cards is rapidly reaching a state where even low-end cards can run reasonably good games
22:24:14 <ais523> elliott_: perhaps the repo mirrors you're using have only a small subset
22:24:21 <CakeProphet> wow I get so many of those thanks for reminding me.
22:24:45 <fizzie> "Trying family `National Semiconductor'... Yes" + "Found unknown chip with ID 0x8519". But that was 2011-03; maybe it's in there now.
22:24:51 <ais523> hmm, I'd /expect/ that to be a full mirror
22:25:37 <fizzie> ais523: "Reasonably good games" (such as nethack) is perhaps not the thing to use there; maybe "reasonably graphical games" or something.
22:25:45 <ais523> fizzie: err, that's what I meant
22:25:45 <elliott_> - Staying on Ubuntu with Unity - five percent likelihood
22:25:52 <elliott_> - Staying on Ubuntu with GNOME - something like forty percent
22:25:52 <ais523> Neverwinter Nights 1 works fine, for instance
22:25:57 <elliott_> - Debian - something like fifty percent
22:26:04 <elliott_> - Downgrading ubuntu - something like fifteen percent
22:26:15 <ais523> elliott_: you didn't put OS X anywhere in your percentage chart?
22:26:31 <elliott_> ais523: OS X is not an option for a main OS for me.
22:26:44 <ais523> what're the specific dealbreakers?
22:26:50 <ais523> I want ammo to use in OS flamewars
22:27:00 <monqy> osx negative percentages to balance the >100%ery
22:27:05 <elliott_> I have other disagreements with them, but they're just not acceptable programming platforms.
22:27:06 <ais523> I can only really mildly defend Linux, because I have the unfortunate symptom of thinking that Windows/OSX are actually quite good
22:27:23 <elliott_> I never defend Linux because it's terrible.
22:27:31 <elliott_> OK, let's see if these nvidia drivers work.
22:27:55 <monqy> everything is terrible.,,.
22:28:18 <CakeProphet> I feel that any unix-based OS is a pretty decent environment for programming.
22:28:21 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_ is of the opinion that everything is terrible even if there's nothing better.
22:28:34 <monqy> im agre with eliot+_
22:28:41 -!- elliott_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:28:43 <ais523> CakeProphet: I maintained C-INTERCAL on Windows' emulation of DOS for years
22:29:00 -!- elliott_ has joined.
22:29:07 <elliott_> Well, the colours look better now.
22:29:57 <CakeProphet> for me the main draw to linux (or another unix) is the shell utilities / mounds of free software
22:30:16 <CakeProphet> Windows has cygwin but that's not quite the same.
22:30:32 <elliott_> I doubt the mounds of free-cost software are the reason, you can just pirate it.
22:30:37 <monqy> windows has a mess of ui i dont want and dont like
22:30:50 <ais523> elliott_: it's a pretty good reason for me, probably the most important
22:30:52 <CakeProphet> elliott_: the fact that it's readily available and very easy to install (for the most part)
22:31:02 <elliott_> ais523: You are not CakeProphet.
22:31:07 <ais523> selecting from a repo is much easier than trying to hunt down programs on Windows
22:31:14 <elliott_> I very much doubt CakeProphet has an objection to piracy.
22:31:17 <ais523> partly, because from a repo you don't need to know the program you want in advance
22:31:26 <elliott_> gah, the fan control must be working, because it keeps turning the fans down then up again
22:31:31 <ais523> and a websearch is likely to return entirely the wrong program if you aren't searching by name
22:32:11 <elliott_> Deewiant: I'll try sensors-detect
22:32:33 <elliott_> Deewiant: Oh no, it didn't find any this time, but it did when I was using noveaueaueua.
22:33:01 * elliott_ stops macfanctld to shut it up.
22:33:19 <elliott_> Did it just stop the control without changing the fan?
22:33:47 <ais523> most computers shut themselves down rather than melting when they overheat
22:33:52 -!- elliott_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:34:09 <ais523> I know that this computer does it on a regular basis because I keep forgetting to bang on the case to start the fan
22:34:53 -!- elliott_ has joined.
22:34:56 <CakeProphet> yes my computer shut down from an overheat just a few days ago actually.
22:34:57 <fizzie> ais523: Maybe you should invest in a hand-cranked fan; having a visible crank could be a nice reminder.
22:35:03 <elliott_> Well, it's monitoring fans just fine without macfanctld now, it seems.
22:35:18 * CakeProphet wasn't aware that fan control was an OS thing.
22:35:28 <ais523> fizzie: the issue is that the fan doesn't spin when it's cold enough, which is usually
22:35:35 <ais523> if it does get hot, usually due to Flash, it tries to start the fan but fails
22:35:42 <ais523> then when I bang on the case, it actually starts
22:35:51 <ais523> it doesn't start if I bang on the case while it isn't trying to spin the fan
22:35:53 <CakeProphet> I figured the hardware itself simply controlled the fan based on a temp sensor or something.
22:36:08 <elliott_> <elliott_> What IS zeitgeist-daemon?
22:36:30 <monqy> i interprted it as "is zeitgeist-daemon ais523?"
22:36:43 <ais523> so the issue is to detect that it's trying to start the fan and bang on the case then
22:36:46 <fizzie> CakeProphet: Often there's a firmware-based (within-ACPI whateverness) fan control, which the OS can then override for more configurable control.
22:36:55 <ais523> it makes a distinctive clicking noise when it happens, but a very quiet one, so sometimes I don't hear it in time
22:37:22 * elliott_ opens LibreOffice for the hell of it
22:37:23 <CakeProphet> fizzie: ah. and why would a OS override it?
22:37:28 <elliott_> yay, it's just as ugly as OpenOffice
22:37:51 <CakeProphet> I was thinking "a operating system" as I typed OS
22:37:56 * elliott_ removes LibreOffice and Ubuntu One from the panel
22:37:58 <ais523> elliott_: most of the changes of LO over OOo have been bugfixes and internal changes
22:38:12 <CakeProphet> elliott_: libreoffice = openoffice with new name
22:38:14 <ais523> wow, are you sure you'll never need a Wordalike or Excelalike?
22:38:16 <monqy> is there a ubuntu two
22:38:17 <elliott_> CakeProphet: I'm not an idiot.
22:38:36 <elliott_> I'm pretty sure I'd use Abiword or Gnumeric, though
22:38:48 <ais523> what about a Powerpoint-alike? that actually happens to me quite a lot
22:39:04 <ais523> also, I have a huge, incredible burning hatred for Keynote
22:39:08 <fizzie> CakeProphet: In case of Linux, possibly because the user is a control freak and wants to use his/her own algorithm. (Though it could be that the firmware fan control is overly aggressive, and/or annoying in that it keeps toggling the fan "full blast / off / full blast / off / ..." while you'd prefer a more gradual adjustment for noise reasons.)
22:39:27 <ais523> (it doesn't run on Linux, but it inspires hate indirectly becaus people sometimes use it)
22:39:30 <elliott_> ais523: I don't like presentations; and why?
22:39:36 <elliott_> Keynote seems to produce acceptable output
22:39:40 <ais523> the hatred, or the presentation use?
22:39:54 <CakeProphet> ais523: my fan is rather loud right now and I'm at near 0% CPU usage
22:40:01 <ais523> its output is full of a range of annoyances that are inflicted on other people
22:40:20 <fizzie> The thinkpad_acpi driver has a "fan_control=1" option, after which it lets the user to control it; it's "disabled by default for safety reasons".
22:40:30 <elliott_> Obviously I'm asking for examples.
22:40:34 <ais523> things like putting visible navigation controls on the view by default, and a really abysmal HTML output (to the extent that Hacker News persuaded someone to post the PDF instead as it wasn't as bad
22:40:40 <ais523> elliott_: it takes me a while to type a line!
22:40:45 <fizzie> And I think I used to have a... Toshiba laptop that also had a platform-specific fan thing.
22:40:51 <ais523> also, I don't think the fonts it uses by default look good at sizes larger than 12-point or so
22:41:07 <elliott_> wow, I think Unity's awful stained-glass effect is actually intentional
22:41:18 <ais523> elliott_: of course, you've heard of Aero Glass, right?
22:41:24 <monqy> awful stained-grlasa effeCGT?
22:41:31 <elliott_> ais523: but it just looks like a badly-dithered version of a blur
22:41:40 <elliott_> ais523: Well, visible navigation is annoying, and HTML too, but the formatting of Keynote PDFs has always been nicer than average presentations IME
22:41:47 <ais523> elliott_: that's what Aero Glass looks like too
22:41:53 <ais523> well, without the bad dithering
22:42:08 <ais523> elliott_: that's just because the sort of people who typically use Powerpoint are really bad at formatting
22:42:09 <elliott_> So it actually looks badly dithered inherently.
22:42:17 <elliott_> ais523: I'm not comparing to powerpoint
22:42:23 <elliott_> I don't read presentations by the kind of people who use powerpoint
22:42:26 <elliott_> I'm talking about talk slides etc.
22:42:42 <ais523> well, what do you think the presentations are being made using, if it's not Keynote or Powerpoint?
22:42:49 <ais523> I'm probably the only person in the universe who willingly uses Impress
22:42:59 <elliott_> wow, Pidgin, don't use my OS display picture as my MSN picture without asking
22:43:09 <ais523> elliott_: wow that is bad
22:43:15 <monqy> can any TeX do slides hows
22:43:19 <elliott_> I look awful in that picture, I just did it because Ubuntu wanted me to
22:43:23 <ais523> I don't think I've ever used Pidgin beyond trying to start it and realising I didn't know how to use it
22:43:36 <ais523> monqy: there's some way to do presentations with LaTeX addons
22:43:49 -!- MichaelBurge has joined.
22:43:49 <CakeProphet> it is particularly adept for these purposes.
22:43:57 <ais523> monqy: and elliott_ even knows what it's called
22:44:00 <elliott_> (23:44:15) Elliott: I hate computers
22:44:05 <elliott_> Good first message to send with new Pidgin install.
22:44:10 <Gregor> CakeProphet: Oh really? Because I use pidgin for cyberlancing and freesex.
22:44:12 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:44:30 <monqy> mmm / cyberlancing
22:44:31 <CakeProphet> cyberlancing is fun but it's a bit too dangerous for me.
22:45:01 <ais523> !bfjoust (>)*8(>+[-])*21
22:45:02 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
22:45:08 <ais523> !bfjoust cyberlance (>)*8(>+[-])*21
22:45:15 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_cyberlance: 15.7
22:45:18 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
22:45:27 <Gregor> (Assuming that's not an altnick for somebody else :P
22:45:36 <elliott_> He's been here for at least a day.
22:45:44 <ais523> what was the most common third component, besides design and deployment?
22:45:53 <Gregor> elliott_: But he didn't say anything, and nobody welcomed him :P
22:46:03 <elliott_> Gregor: BTW, I could add a syntax to `? so you could say "`? welcome > MichaelBurge"...
22:46:18 <elliott_> ais523: oh no, the indicator message box thing highlight is now blue, not green
22:46:21 <Gregor> elliott_: Yup. Yup you could.
22:46:26 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:46:28 <elliott_> Gregor: Then I will, in a minute.
22:46:30 <ais523> elliott_: that's an "oh no"?
22:46:42 <elliott_> ais523: I WAS USED TO THE GREEN
22:46:56 <zzo38> I played D&D game today.
22:47:22 <ais523> zzo38: have you considered adding a third player to your electronic circuit simulator?
22:47:26 <MichaelBurge> #haskell has a bot written in Haskell, and several other channels have language-specific bots. Is the #esoteric bot written in Brainfuck or Unlambda? :p
22:47:39 <ais523> there are several; fungot is written in Funge-98
22:47:40 <fungot> ais523: then i came to a lightless domed hall of vast proportions, whose vaultings were covered with demoniac carvings and in whose songs thou shalt hear notes of fnord by which the race expanded. for personal locomotion no external aid was used, since in the space following death some of the
22:47:46 <zzo38> ais523: What electronic circuit simulator?
22:47:47 <ais523> ^ul (hi, I'm written in Funge-98)S
22:47:47 <fungot> hi, I'm written in Funge-98
22:48:05 <ais523> zzo38: it's OK if you don't have one but you can if you want to
22:48:09 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
22:49:28 <monqy> was news-ham zepto
22:49:41 -!- elliott_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:49:47 <monqy> and zeptobot was python? my memorys all gone
22:49:49 -!- elliott_ has joined.
22:49:53 <zzo38> C is OK to program in. Some people disagree but I think C is good, but LLVM is better designed than C in my opinion, and with a lot of macro system and literate programming, LLVM would work well to write a program that you might otherwise write in C.
22:50:14 <elliott_> ais523: grr, the icon for the battery indicator is horizontally squashed
22:50:20 <elliott_> so it has annoying image scaling artefacts
22:51:43 <elliott_> hmm, maybe I should try Empathy
22:51:46 <elliott_> maybe it's finally not terrible
22:52:37 * elliott_ installs proprietary fonts because seriously the liberation fonts are bad.
22:52:57 <ais523> and it's using them in preference to DejaVu fonts, which are pretty good?
22:53:15 <zzo38> Then use the Computer Modern fonts (although they are not screenfonts, do you want screenfonts?)
22:53:37 <elliott_> ais523: well, dejavu sans has awkward proportions
22:53:41 <elliott_> it's good at replacing Verdana but little else
22:53:47 <Gregor> When you use an electronic paper display, Computer Modern becomes a screenfont!
22:53:52 <zzo38> What operating system are you on?
22:53:53 <elliott_> at least the corefonts have the right proportions as the corefonts :-)
22:53:56 <ais523> elliott_: it's good as a font for use in the abstract, I think
22:54:12 <zzo38> I know X can just use standard X bitmap fonts, but I don't know if the programs in Ubuntu use those.
22:54:13 <CakeProphet> elliott_: I'm pretty sure most people always install mscorefont
22:54:14 <elliott_> ais523: It's not a useful replacement for a webpage not designed for a font with its metrics
22:54:15 <ais523> I normally submit things like reports in DejaVu Sans
22:54:22 <elliott_> zzo38: They're disabled by default.
22:54:24 <Gregor> CakeProphet: I don't have mscorefonts.
22:54:25 <elliott_> CakeProphet: No, most people don't.
22:54:33 <CakeProphet> well I do. I guess I'm not most people then. :P
22:54:34 <elliott_> Most people have no idea what the corefonts are.
22:54:37 <ais523> elliott_: webpages shouldn't be designed for particular font metrics
22:54:44 <elliott_> ais523: I don't really have time for this
22:54:51 <ais523> incidentally, I installed mscorefonts, then later uninstalled it again
22:54:58 <elliott_> (That's a lie, I do, but I don't have the energy)
22:55:03 <Gregor> But WebSplat becomes a wholly different game when metrics change!
22:55:20 <ais523> I haven't really noticed, apart from Neverwinter Nights 1 which substitutes a weird 7-segment-display type font where it'd normally use Courier New
22:55:27 <ais523> which makes things like scripts almost unreadable
22:55:36 <elliott_> Gregor: I'm still bummed that nobody backed up HavenWorks.
22:55:55 <Gregor> elliott_: I'm still not convinced that I haven't, I just made no effort whatsoever to actually find what stupid place I put it :P
22:56:20 <elliott_> dear Firefox: "Feedback" is not worth being the largest button on your menu
22:56:29 <ais523> it probably is to them
22:56:35 <ais523> none of the other options give them useful information
22:56:55 * elliott_ clicks "Firefox made me sad because" and types in "the Feedback button takes up way too much screen real estate".
22:57:15 <Gregor> http://web.archive.org/web/20110207193433/http://havenworks.com/ Tada :P
22:57:23 <elliott_> Gregor: Does it have al lthe images?
22:57:41 <Gregor> elliott_: Well I haven't scrolled through all the madness, but it sure seems to.
22:58:07 <elliott_> Gregor: Can you collect the archive.org header images? X-D
22:58:30 <elliott_> That havenworks favicon logo thing is permanently ingrained into my head as "one of the enemies".
22:58:33 <Gregor> I forgot to ever make a Zalgofier option for WebSplat ....
22:58:39 <ais523> incidentally, have you noticed that archive.org seems to have an interstitial nowadays?
22:58:52 <ais523> or, well, it's more of a splash screen
22:59:09 * elliott_ tries to install a native 64 bit flash player
22:59:13 <elliott_> ais523: indeed, I don't like the redesign
22:59:29 <ais523> I'm not sure what triggers it, but I suspect it's based on referrer somehow
22:59:39 <ais523> either lack of a particular referrer, or seeing a referrer other than themselves
22:59:45 <ais523> I should try faking my referrer to see what happens
23:00:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:00:48 <zzo38> At FreeGeek they print everything using the Liberation fonts except for the stuff I type, which I print using Computer Modern instead.
23:00:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:01:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Client Quit).
23:01:33 <ais523> (DVSM is probably the only correct option, although I'll consider the possibility that there may be others)
23:01:42 <elliott_> ais523: the same font but smaller
23:01:48 <ais523> ah, OK, that's also acceptable
23:01:53 <elliott_> ais523: there are other correct options
23:01:54 <ais523> couldn't you just use control-minus for that, though?
23:02:00 <ais523> elliott_: on Linux, I mean
23:02:10 <ais523> I'm not that much of a fan of Inconsolata, but it's not indefensible, I suppose
23:02:11 <elliott_> You can convert Monaco to something that works on Linux.
23:02:22 <elliott_> ais523: Inconsolata is nicest on OS X, oddly enough
23:02:34 <elliott_> (since it wasn't /designed/ on OS X)
23:02:39 <ais523> because it's designed for an OS with exact subpixel display, I guess
23:03:03 <ais523> hey, best practice is not to design around today's bugs, isn't it?
23:03:10 <ais523> or at least, have bugfixes as a separate thing
23:03:16 <ais523> other people's bugfixes, that is
23:03:48 * elliott_ considers increasing mouse acceleration, realises he hasn't actually solved the mouse driver problem yet.
23:04:16 <zzo38> Justu se a simple fixpitch bitmap font it can work maybe
23:04:19 <elliott_> ais523: here's an oneiric actual-bug: the indicator for volume control shows, but always displays as if the volume is 0
23:04:27 <elliott_> except for the icon, which displays as minimum non-zero
23:04:45 <ais523> is sound itself working? the volume control indicator always displays at 50% here while Pulse is broken
23:04:49 <zzo38> (METAFONT programs are also compiled into bitmap fonts, but they are meant for printing font rather than screen)
23:05:32 <ais523> oh, but the volume control /indicator/ shows at 0?
23:06:04 -!- sllide has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:06:09 -!- Patashu has joined.
23:07:04 <elliott_> ais523: nope, only the popup thing
23:08:41 <elliott_> Unity has no configuration, it seems
23:09:02 <elliott_> ais523: it's more extreme than gnome
23:09:06 <elliott_> gnome always have /some/ config for anything non-trivial
23:09:13 <elliott_> hmm, maybe there's unity gconf keys
23:09:17 <ais523> people have been accusing me of going Gnome-style with AceHack's options
23:09:38 <ais523> what's your opinion on gconf, btw? I don't see why flat-files in dotfiles or /etc wouldn't be a better idea
23:09:49 <elliott_> gconf is fine, but it's probably not a good design
23:09:58 <elliott_> it basically /is/ backed by xml files
23:10:07 <elliott_> which reduce to flatfiles when you remove badness
23:10:20 <ais523> but centralised flatfiles rather than one-per-app
23:10:29 <ais523> hmm, I suppose that might help in config deployment or something like that
23:10:41 <elliott_> I mean, they are centralised in ~/.gconf
23:10:51 <elliott_> but consolidating all "same" options in every app to one...
23:11:09 <ais523> I mean, across multiple computers
23:11:16 <ais523> if you want to turn everyone's desktops red remotely, for instance
23:11:17 <elliott_> in @, I think configuration will basically be a hierarchical key-value type thing with human-friendly names, descriptions, and change-UIs (basically, "how to show the mutator for this configuration option")
23:11:24 <elliott_> with specialised configuration interfaces for the common stuff
23:11:36 <ais523> that's non-obvious in Linux, and an intended usecase for the relevant Windows thing
23:12:22 <ais523> no, there's some remote configuration-pushing-out tool
23:12:30 <ais523> that connects to the registry, but isn't the registry
23:13:03 <elliott_> I should never update anything
23:13:08 <ais523> it's one of the things that makes enterprises want to use Windwos
23:13:10 <elliott_> I should just use the same settings for everything forever
23:13:25 <elliott_> hmm, wait, isn't gconf actually deprecated?
23:13:27 <ais523> security fixes? new features?
23:14:05 <elliott_> s/security fixes/ok I can't think of a good response to that/
23:14:16 <ais523> but features can be useful too
23:14:17 <fizzie> You can at least use the group policy infrastructure to push registry changes, among other things.
23:14:26 <elliott_> maybe if someone offered to convert my OS into @
23:16:02 -!- elliott_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:16:33 -!- elliott has joined.
23:16:40 <elliott> ais523: yay, it's now win+space to bring up unity now
23:16:52 <ais523> what configuratoid did you change?
23:17:08 <elliott> I used compiz config settings manager :P
23:17:14 <elliott> to edit the plugin's settings
23:18:30 <ais523> if I still get to use compizconfig with unity, then it'd make me consider it slightly more than I am at the moment
23:18:35 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/mLUyt.png <-- umm, could you be more specific?
23:18:56 <ais523> hmm, what's Unity like from a window management perspective? can you put windows side by side? overlap them?
23:19:08 <elliott> it just replaces the panel
23:19:21 <ais523> elliott: ah, so like windows/gnome/KDE
23:19:21 <elliott> that's just the Ubuntu font
23:19:24 <elliott> that's been used for /ages/ now
23:19:32 <ais523> elliott: it's hurting my eyes despite that
23:19:36 <elliott> ais523: well, except it uses GNOME applications, too
23:19:36 <elliott> "The problem cannot be reported:
23:19:36 <elliott> You have some obsolete package versions installed. Please upgrade the following packages and check if the problem still occurs:
23:19:36 <elliott> gnome-settings-daemon, gnome-desktop3-data, libatk1.0-0, libatk1.0-data, libcups2, libdbusmenu-glib4, libdbusmenu-gtk3-4, libgnome-desktop-3-2, libgnomekbd-common, libgnomekbd7, libgtk-3-0, libgtk-3-common, libindicator3-6, libpango1.0-0, libx11-6, libx11-data, nautilus-data"
23:19:40 <elliott> that's a lot of obsoletion
23:19:40 <ais523> especially the lowercase l
23:19:44 <elliott> ais523: the hinting settings, then?
23:19:52 <ais523> no, it's just the shape of the letters
23:19:58 <elliott> hinting changes the shape of letters
23:20:01 <ais523> I don't use it, and I'm on the most recent LTS version which doesn't
23:20:14 <ais523> nope, that lowercase l is still unforgivable
23:20:19 <elliott> I like it, I even use it for IRC
23:20:23 <ais523> I'm closing the tab so it stops hurting my eyes
23:20:27 <elliott> although not IM, strangely enough
23:20:41 * elliott runs a software upgrade; maybe it'll fix my trackpad :P
23:21:02 <elliott> only eight hundred kb to download?
23:21:04 <fizzie> I believe the Ubuntu font is supposed to be friendly.
23:21:05 <elliott> maybe it did it in the background
23:23:13 <ais523> or perhaps they've actually started using binary-diffing for updates
23:29:30 <olsner> more likely they've implemented background downloading
23:33:03 <pikhq> From stupid concepts land: orthogonally persistent Brainfuck.
23:46:04 <pikhq> Ah, see, that'd be a decent idea.
23:47:37 <zzo38> What does orthogonally persistent means?
23:47:53 <elliott> zzo38: wikipedia has a good explanation; basically modified data persists automatically
23:48:06 <elliott> so no separate storage mechanism such as a filesystem is required
23:48:20 <elliott> ais523: I know why it was; I selected to download updates while installing
23:48:52 <ais523> elliott: presumably an orthogonal persistence mechanism might use a filesystem behind the scenes
23:49:06 <olsner> that would be boring though
23:49:23 <elliott> olsner: mostly, it would be inefficient
23:50:08 <elliott> TIL Wikipedia has banned the Church of Scientology from editing any articles. It’s a punishment for repeated and deceptive editing of articles related to the controversial religion. (wired.com)
23:50:14 <elliott> ais523: umm, isn't it just from editing Scientology articles?
23:50:54 <ais523> elliott: check the list of arbitration cases
23:50:55 <elliott> yay, the firefox feedback thing disappeared
23:51:02 <pikhq> mmap is *pretty close* to an orthogonal persistence method in stock UNIX.
23:51:29 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:52:07 <ais523> elliott: wow, they took your feedback on board quickly
23:52:20 -!- elliott has joined.
23:52:24 <ais523> pikhq: but needs an explicit msync
23:52:30 <zzo38> I consider Church of Scientology is not a proper religion it is just a fake they try to do everything wrong on purpose, etc. It is the only one like that, that I currently know of.
23:53:26 <zzo38> It is too bad that they failed to invent a proper religion, and invented an improper religion instead.
23:53:36 <zzo38> Maybe because they don't know how?? I don't know
23:53:47 <elliott> so what's your criteria for a proper religion
23:53:52 <monqy> I was just about to ask, myself
23:54:25 <pikhq> ais523: Much more pressing, it doesn't really do anything like, say, persisting a continuation so that on restart code flow just goes back to a previous state.
23:54:29 -!- ive has joined.
23:54:36 <zzo38> I don't know, but Church of Scientology is not a proper religion. But I think someone in this channel told me there are also Freezone, maybe it is proper religion; but I don't know other things about it
23:54:52 <zzo38> So I cannot be quite sure
23:55:01 <ais523> elliott: if you want details on Wikipedia arbcom cases, try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Cases/All
23:55:56 <ais523> hey, I missed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Date_delinking
23:55:56 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, mmap documentation says that you're not guaranteed to get modifications to the file in the memory map. Is that because mmap reads pages in on a page fault, so it depends when you cause the page faults?
23:56:02 <ais523> it looks fun just from the name
23:56:04 <elliott> That's the one thing I noticed
23:56:15 <elliott> I noticed the bot happening
23:56:17 <elliott> but not an arbcom case about it
23:56:52 <ais523> also, 19 principles, 27 findings of fact, 32 remedies, and 7 amendments?
23:57:01 <ais523> how do you get that sort of crazy situation coming out of /date delinking//
23:57:24 <pikhq> elliott: Pretty much.
23:57:44 <elliott> ais523: your mistake is thinking it's about date delinking
23:58:00 <pikhq> elliott: MAP_SHARED will make it so that modifications to the file *from another mmap* will be guaranteed to be seen by other processes, though.
23:58:04 <ais523> well, it's probably about power-hunger
23:58:11 <ais523> but it seems like a really minor thing to be power-hungry over
23:58:41 <elliott> pikhq: and page faults are pretty much the only way to overload memory access, right?
23:58:59 <elliott> ais523: It's either about (a) power or (b) two people not liking each other.
23:59:12 <elliott> It doesn't matter what the supposed issue is.
23:59:25 <elliott> (if it did, it wouldn't have to go to arbcom, because it'd be about the actual issue itself)
23:59:47 <elliott> pikhq: How much slower is a page fault (not counting the handler, just the actual overhead) than a regular memory access?