< 1315699434 584501 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1315699459 538073 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1315699856 779896 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315700380 351230 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION → sleep < 1315700381 339278 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1315700692 51295 :variable!~thing@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: I found 1 in /dev/zero < 1315700700 182477 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow. if javascript throws an exception and nothing catches it, it silently dies? < 1315700984 654467 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think something must catch it, although it might be the system that does so < 1315701053 535377 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I have: class Which w l r t | w t -> l r where { which :: l -> r -> w -> t; }; then how can I make up the "makeL" and "makeR" such that: which makeL makeR = id < 1315701081 453266 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so your question is, if javascript throws and exception and no one catches it, does it make a sound? < 1315701085 898113 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*an < 1315701146 143854 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've only heard this question for certain simple data structures, but i think it's unresolved even for those < 1315701149 723129 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: yes javascript is the best thing to debug ever. < 1315701273 229477 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :last night I had to debug a javascript error < 1315701308 626026 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :a for loop was ending before the first cycle even finished < 1315701313 476324 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I had no idea what was causing it to stop < 1315701354 711308 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would make an awesome movie < 1315701368 239764 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :debugging javascript? < 1315701387 734867 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno, everything sounds so grandiose atm < 1315701396 512045 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :a movie about debugging javascript... < 1315701403 618149 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 hours of staring at stacks and variables < 1315701412 868592 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and setting breakpoints < 1315701413 176654 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i keep imagining stuff in a trailer voice with explosions in the background < 1315701425 678470 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :IN A WORLD... < 1315701429 54876 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :WITH NO EXCEPTION HANDLIGN < 1315701455 999789 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :A WORLD... < 1315701458 455124 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how one would go about debugging assembly < 1315701460 373579 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHERE PROGRAMS DON'T DO WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO < 1315701495 153314 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ONE MAN... < 1315701497 62482 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :MUST FIX HIS CODE < 1315701498 276191 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ONCE AND FOR ALL < 1315701518 375953 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :james matrix is just as simple programmer... unaware that one uncaught exception... would change his life forever < 1315701571 994690 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :'what if the program could, you know, speak up when something goes wrong...' 'that's crazy talk james! out of my office!' < 1315701577 804062 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :*THOOM* < 1315701657 741480 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: grandiose? are you perhaps on acid? < 1315701718 287404 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"there is no choice, we have to set a breakpoint here" "but james matrix, it's too dangerous, the stack might overflow, recursion, pointers, monads!" "god help us all" *sets breakpoint* < 1315701735 693618 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: i'm on acid on life < 1315701888 807138 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"this bug is impossi" < 1315701891 423147 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck < 1315701931 287100 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :'monads' < 1315701941 954248 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"this bug is impossible to fix, we have to call james matrix!" *arrives* "no ordinary programming is going to do us any good here... i have to use... dvorak" < 1315701946 717440 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1315702007 734277 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :james matrix might just be the coolest character i ever invented just now < 1315702106 52470 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :see also sequel where james matrix uses induction to prove a theorem with no simple combinatorial proof < 1315702515 442167 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the sad thing is, is that even if you made this into a movie, there'd be other movies even /worse/ < 1315702541 362724 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, you should mix in the "stand back! I know regular expressions" from xkcd too < 1315702543 539620 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, because there are other movies < 1315702577 396426 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1315702579 539244 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :at one point they use a global variable < 1315703132 156848 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :tv series are not very realistic i find < 1315703247 932800 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would pay to watch that film! < 1315703353 863689 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course you would, it would be awesome < 1315703884 90111 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do *you* understand my question relating to Haskell? I can copy more explanation in here in case you did not read it < 1315703906 252617 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I put in #haskell channel but they don't know, and they are supposed to know!) < 1315703972 824343 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1315704335 928703 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seem, everyone doesn't know the question < 1315704356 721026 :variable!~thing@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1315704415 361300 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1315704422 236622 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to make it which makeL makeR = id for example one instance can be which = maybe; makeL = Nothing; makeR = Just; but that doesn't work it works "which" but the "makeL" and "makeR" doesn't work. < 1315704485 704861 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are they supposed to do other than which makeL makeR = id < 1315704563 977233 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: It is supposed to do what it says it does. The "which" does in fact works. But the "makeL" and "makeR" doesn't work even though I tried to make it work in a few different ways, but it doesn't work whether it is same class or other class < 1315704585 850418 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :This part works: class Which w l r t | w t -> l r where { which :: l -> r -> w -> t; }; < 1315704587 547261 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it say < 1315704618 311839 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Other than their instance definitions it is only supposed to do following the which makeL makeR = id laws. < 1315704626 731496 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1315704642 755959 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which = const; makeL = id; makeR = undefined < 1315704648 416180 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which = id; makeL = id; makeR = id < 1315704662 611854 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which = flip const; makeL = undefined; makeR = id < 1315704668 876657 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though I typed in the definition of makeL and makeR it still doesn't works < 1315704700 724533 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: No that is wrong, for a few reasons. One is, it has undefined, which doesn't count. Other is, they do not correspond to specific types. < 1315704746 914277 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is why I have instance corresponding to specific types, such as Bool, Maybe, Either, and so on. These types have functions or values corresponding to the laws of which/makeL/makeR. < 1315704773 455234 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you even want this < 1315704778 266899 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks overcomplicated and useless < 1315704855 792303 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is this things called in category theory? < 1315704904 459203 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: isn't t always going to be something like a -> a since it can be the identity function < 1315704963 427508 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it isn't going to always be. Notice types of "maybe" function; the "t" isn't that type. < 1315705019 570196 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i didn't notice the w there < 1315705029 51477 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1315705034 493140 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so uh < 1315705037 90714 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you use this < 1315705134 133793 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some examples of such things would be: { which l r w = if w then r else l; makeL = False; makeR = True; } { which = maybe; makeL = Nothing; makeR = Just; } { which = either; makeL = Left; makeR = Right; } Is there a name for such things in mathematics and in category theory? < 1315705289 710901 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many things do you know about category theory, though? < 1315705326 786924 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not much < 1315705346 573126 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I knew more but < 1315705527 395388 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually there may be other laws of the kind of things I try to mentioned, but that I might have missed. But which makeL makeR = id is only one I could think of. < 1315705677 285143 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the Maybe monad, the (which makeL) which is (maybe Nothing) is same as (=<<) < 1315705937 367307 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance? Which (a, b) (a -> a') (b -> b') (a', b') where makeL = id; makeR = id; which = (Control.Arrow.***) < 1315705946 510372 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That follows with the Either monad as well < 1315705991 660097 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I forgot the t in there < 1315705998 434347 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: I don't know about arrow < 1315706004 879656 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance? Which (a, b) (a -> a') (b -> b') (a', b') (a', b') where makeL = id; makeR = id; which = (Control.Arrow.***) < 1315706007 615735 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1315706038 49928 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what arrow < 1315706040 390767 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Which class only has four parameters, not five? < 1315706046 276059 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1315706049 356975 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't forget about it < 1315706052 526180 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot I remembered it < 1315706060 813925 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance? Which (a, b) (a -> a') (b -> b') (a', b') where makeL = id; makeR = id; which = (Control.Arrow.***) < 1315706063 677580 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1315706072 176415 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what's this about arrow? < 1315706100 773135 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That I don't know about Control.Arrow very well < 1315706114 869759 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I can try to see if it can work < 1315706117 123120 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses (***) for the function instance: f *** g = \ (a, b) -> (f a, g b) < 1315706291 45045 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Yes, that does in fact work. On pair types, it seems that is correct. < 1315706648 366252 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what doesn't work about makeL and makeR and how are you trying to make them work, or do they work now? < 1315706727 139759 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :They don't work. What doesn't work is that it won't accept my definition of makeL and makeR either in that class or in a separate class that depends on the first one. Even if it compiles, it still won't understand the instance when using makeL or makeR. But which still works whether or not I try to define makeL and makeR. < 1315706782 48528 :Rugxulo!~Rugxulo@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1315706787 883029 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the errors? < 1315706804 88332 :Rugxulo!~Rugxulo@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :moo < 1315706805 592149 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ambiguity errors < 1315706819 232246 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like what < 1315706826 697246 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and corresponding to which implementation attempt < 1315706868 764154 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :All implementation attempts, but the errors are still different < 1315706897 59614 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean specifically what is the code you tried and what was the error printout < 1315706913 634815 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implementing in the same class, it work makeL :: l; makeR :: r; it will accept, but then I wrote makeL = False; makeR = True; and it is error "Couldn't match type `t' with `Bool'" < 1315706989 2612 :Rugxulo!~Rugxulo@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ ?? < 1315707002 438377 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: What about C++? < 1315707030 164227 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: haskell. < 1315707039 259961 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1315707051 807777 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :with multiparameter typeclasses and functional dependencies and friends < 1315707113 482809 :Rugxulo!~Rugxulo@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net QUIT :Quit: Rugxulo < 1315707136 826249 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what were the class, instance, and error, in full? < 1315707153 808029 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :This doesn't work either. It is not compile error but still ambiguity when trying to use it in GHCi: class Which w l r w => WhichMake w l r where { makeL :: l; makeR :: r; } instance WhichMake Bool Bool Bool where { makeL = False; makeR = True; }; < 1315707203 248113 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ambiguous type variables `t0', `w0', `r0' in the constraint: (WhichMake w0 t0 r0) arising from a use of `makeL' < 1315707271 974849 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :How to make not ambiguous? < 1315707320 157992 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case? I don't really know. l and r should depend on w but w is never used so that's a mess < 1315707328 200293 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :really they should be in the same class?? < 1315707349 692137 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks for a WebTV simulator < 1315707389 14240 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: In the same class results in ambiguity error in the instance declaration, but I agree it would make sense to be the same class, it make more sense mathematically it seem to me, at least. < 1315707415 972178 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what were the class, instance, and ambiguity error, in full? < 1315707470 290325 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldn't match type `t' with `Bool' `t' is a rigid type variable bound by the instance declaration at Which.hs:10:23 In the expression: False In an equation for `makeL': makeL = False In the instance declaration for `Which Bool t t t' < 1315707664 103547 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok that makes sense < 1315707681 237147 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :makeL is of type l and in the instance l is t < 1315707713 353248 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the instance should be Which Bool Bool Bool Bool if you want that definition for makeL < 1315707763 685566 :augur!~augur@216-164-57-20.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1315707805 39485 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want anything fancier I'm afraid you;ll have to using crazy generic programming tricks?? like syb and friends?? < 1315707944 93069 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you do that? < 1315707974 8042 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reason I know about "t" rigid variable that is why I made it a separate class, but that way still doesn't work < 1315707991 13553 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you won't be able to get around it < 1315707997 33553 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1315708030 543702 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1315708063 813355 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess your trick with the extra class was that you wanted to make it so makeL and makeR only worked in the case that it was indeed all Bool? < 1315708121 677314 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with that is when you say makeL or makeR you don't know the instance because there's not enough information in the types to tell in e.g. makeL's case, w and r < 1315708162 524212 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you made it so there could only be one instance for any w, l, or r, I think? < 1315708189 87492 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know enough about fundep syntax to construct that though, if it's even possible < 1315709378 868000 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it mathematically possible in category theory, though? < 1315709605 947931 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db43aa4.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1315709887 927981 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :re: bitcoins, would it be possible to create a block mining algorithm that doesn't achieve speedups on gpus relative to cpus? < 1315709928 872253 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gpus' main advantage is that they are largely parallel, or am I mistaken? < 1315709956 83896 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd imagine any algorithm reliant on brute-forcing would benefit from parallelization < 1315709968 479979 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315710280 794260 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I managed to make "makeL" and "makeR" work with Bool so far, but only if you specify ":: Bool" afterward, and the other instances do not work at all. < 1315710586 113237 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually it works if I use "which makeL makeR ::" instead of putting :: at the end. Why does it require that? < 1315710832 175402 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 < 1315710884 496256 :augur_!~augur@216-164-57-20.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1315710905 7315 :augur!~augur@216-164-57-20.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1315710951 123180 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: http://hpaste.org/51221 < 1315711008 10230 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, not quite ideal though < 1315711016 229025 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :phone < 1315711223 580342 :ive!~nn@189.179.241.111 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1315711260 484806 :augur_!~augur@216-164-57-20.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1315711282 595776 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I suppose type instances can work too. I didn't think of that. I suppose it does make some sense since you apply types corresponding to types and the class now only has one parameter. < 1315711294 326844 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will try loading that program into my computer < 1315711363 980599 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't quite work because which left right doesn't work out nicely < 1315711409 212921 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes you are correct, it doesn't work < 1315711444 86072 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does work for other things though < 1315711456 363335 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :λ> which 5 (+1) Nothing < 1315711456 522554 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 < 1315711457 936858 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db43aa4.pool.mediaWays.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1315711490 689529 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes that works. Even my program it also worked that way too. < 1315711713 766451 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I put False on the left but the idea is still the same. Putting False on the left allows you to generalize the "when" command for both Bool and Maybe as "which $ return ()" < 1315711760 543916 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is telling it about type functions < 1315711796 496409 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, why doesn't "which left right" work with your program? I don't completely understand < 1315711812 992235 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask for the type of which left right in mine < 1315711836 375804 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :note how it has a bunch of type variables in the constraints that don't show up in the type itself < 1315711840 391101 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet I could do this in 7.4 < 1315711935 17458 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK I asked for the type, it displays (Left a b ~ Left a1 a1, Right a b ~ Right a2 a2, Choose a1, Choose a2, Choose a) => a -> b < 1315711941 645472 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1315711972 612015 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :those a1 and a2 variables don't show up in the actual type < 1315712023 862029 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315712134 624979 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I think the general thing you're looking for < 1315712137 864665 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :is an eliminator < 1315712143 838273 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a CT term < 1315712151 978873 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a representation of ADTs < 1315712177 491497 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would functional dependencies help? It doesn't seem there is anything to make functional dependencies with on the Choose class, and as far as I know there is no functional dependencies for type families < 1315712185 82749 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :they might < 1315712193 588368 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1315713243 608148 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. Can you tell me more about what "eliminator" is? < 1315713360 731070 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.quora.com/In-type-theory-what-is-an-eliminator-and-what-is-its-opposite < 1315713764 923221 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b635d.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1315714145 69548 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, yes that make sense < 1315714181 723437 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :you typically won't get a typeclass for it < 1315714191 476214 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because it depends on how many constructors you have < 1315714199 862497 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :all your examples have two constructors so it works < 1315714240 272945 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I suppose the Choose or Which class would be used to indicate a type that you have two constructors, and one eliminator that can choose between them (in the case of pairs, it will choose both). < 1315714259 815307 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, not sure pairs even work < 1315714273 739540 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, it could be a statement that your type has two constructors < 1315714310 901433 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it is not a real eliminator with pairs (and it has only one constructor), but the Choose or Which class could still exist following the laws related to those classes < 1315714352 758179 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But someone has mentioned a way to do it: which = (Control.Arrow.***); left = id; right = id; not a real eliminator though. < 1315714383 652008 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, yeah, probably not < 1315714393 214717 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t uncurry < 1315714393 948938 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b c. (a -> b -> c) -> (a, b) -> c < 1315714404 799427 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the real (non-dependent) eliminator for pairs < 1315714422 408655 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I suppose it violate the law if you also assume the return type must be allowed to be anything. < 1315714438 768135 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you add that law, then the Choose (or Which) class cannot properly use pairs. < 1315714444 922830 :MDude!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MSleep < 1315714562 995691 :derrik!~xix@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1315714828 729445 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it also has to do with when it is swappable or not. For example, Bool is swappable, Either is swappable, but Maybe is not swappable. < 1315714839 411075 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swappable? < 1315714856 927077 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, as in, all constructors have the same type? < 1315714869 592534 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^easy way to describe my intuition about that < 1315714880 640530 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it was more "They all look the same" < 1315714940 21577 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means it can be swapped by "which right left", like how "which left right" is identity. < 1315714974 392982 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what which is < 1315714981 386206 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait < 1315714999 8639 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My definition of "swappable" doesn't fit what my intuition says about Either < 1315715097 755432 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the "Bool" type can be swapped to "Bool" itself, and "Either a b" is swapped to "Either b a" < 1315715821 712986 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does this capture what you're trying to say: All constructors for the type require the same number of arguments [ignoring bleh about all functions taking 0 or 1 arguments] < 1315715823 873779 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1315715851 274192 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose that does it. < 1315715860 365867 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it seem so < 1315715932 920864 :CakeProphet!~adam@24.75.162.230 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315715933 81132 :CakeProphet!~adam@24.75.162.230 QUIT :Changing host < 1315715933 81297 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1315716232 39864 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1315716326 323868 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldn't match type `Right a1 a1' with `a2 -> Left a0 a0' if it is "Maybe t" then type a2 is "t" and a0 is "Maybe t", a1 is also "Maybe t". It does match but it says it doesn't match < 1315716563 26279 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :How to make it recognize it match? < 1315716639 26466 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :> () < 1315716639 883375 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : () < 1315717190 768123 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Choose.hs wrong or is GHC wrong? < 1315717199 464047 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or am I wrong? < 1315717214 642908 :derrik!~xix@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :the answer is yes < 1315717250 671779 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :(d) all of the above < 1315717581 16118 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1315718970 467695 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHC is never wrong. < 1315719104 281925 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1315723898 873727 :derrik_!~xix@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1315723978 443674 :derrik!~xix@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1315723985 168227 :derrik_!~xix@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee NICK :derrik < 1315724091 362879 :Taneb!540d5df4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.93.244 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315724095 584245 :Taneb!540d5df4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.93.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1315724120 837654 :Taneb!540d5df4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.93.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm on my brother's laptop < 1315724137 928033 :Taneb!540d5df4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.93.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :McAfee SiteAdvisor doesn't seem to like esoteric.voxelperfect.net < 1315724178 355876 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! our archnemesis mcafee is at it again! < 1315724199 77582 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: what in particular does it dislike? < 1315724205 528191 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and does it have the same issue with esolangs.org? < 1315724299 827154 :Taneb!540d5df4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.93.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't say and no < 1315724309 404384 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how bizarre < 1315724339 257914 :Taneb!540d5df4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.93.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"McAfee TrustedSource web reputation analysis found potential security risks with this site. Use with extreme caution." < 1315724396 7841 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In particular, the programming languages promoted on this page are kinda weird, and you'd better not get involved in that sorta thing." < 1315724402 90150 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I continue to maintain that it's bizarre < 1315724406 292486 :Taneb!540d5df4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.93.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a problem with Voxelperfect < 1315724464 568611 :Taneb!540d5df4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.93.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, wait, it isn't < 1315724677 620518 :Taneb!540d5df4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.93.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MYSTERIOUS < 1315724739 758885 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it has something to do with what other websites say about the site < 1315724758 526661 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats what i would expect "web reputation analysis" to do < 1315724879 742143 :Taneb!540d5df4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.93.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a shame that Carnage Heart didn't do very well < 1315724905 28154 :Taneb!540d5df4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.93.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's essentially befunge as a turn based strategy < 1315724907 274084 :Taneb!540d5df4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.93.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For PS1 < 1315724914 524316 :Taneb!540d5df4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.93.244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye < 1315724915 415634 :Taneb!540d5df4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.13.93.244 QUIT : < 1315724919 237605 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b635d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QL9CbikWNw < 1315726458 940978 :derrik!~xix@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204] < 1315726474 483908 :derrik!~xix@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1315726549 428498 :derrik!~xix@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee QUIT :Client Quit < 1315726561 753085 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1315726823 21052 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1315727052 126914 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what I've never understood < 1315727062 655453 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1315727063 429831 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In HQ9+, does + cause any output? < 1315727086 618201 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first of those questions was rhetorical < 1315727098 566403 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think usually it has no visible effect. perhaps it might overflow and give an error message that way. < 1315727131 848615 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is of course the joke) < 1315727322 547503 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it changes write-only memory in an irreversible way < 1315727338 546974 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this operation isn't expected to do anything user-visible, as far as I know, nor be distinguishable from a NOP < 1315727356 365946 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, all my HQ9+ impls do have an accumulator that's incremented upon calling + < 1315727449 619870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have any HQ9++ impls because I haven't quite figured out what ++ does < 1315727488 188444 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It creates a new instance of the generic superclass < 1315727504 453034 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, as in new Object() in Java? < 1315727508 906155 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(can you even do that in Java?) < 1315727519 217487 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, and dunno, never used Java < 1315727712 760895 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe you can create instances of Object in Java, though they're perhaps not terribly useful. < 1315727782 186498 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have monitors, at least, so you could use them as mutexes < 1315727789 340464 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although making a separate mutex isn't very javaish < 1315728065 397492 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or condition variables in the pthread_cond sense, with wait/notify, due to those same monitors. Or just as arbitrary unique objects, since you can equality-compare them. < 1315728709 709583 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a better way in Haskell to get the nth element of a list than "last (take n list)" < 1315728754 431757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :getting the nth element of a list isn't particularly efficient, although last+take seems even less so < 1315728760 873243 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> "yeah there is" !! 5 < 1315728761 766597 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 't' < 1315728780 975667 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh < 1315728844 905062 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: it is sort of deprecated to use it, since it traverses the list, and also it may error < 1315728872 491496 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's possible to get the nth element /without/ traversing the list < 1315728900 69630 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well true, but it is recommended you don't use it when iterating over a list otherwise < 1315728927 652446 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I don't think it's "deprecated". < 1315728938 548513 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well not technically... < 1315728955 348644 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: definitely, an indexwise list traversal is a bad idea in any language < 1315728961 797202 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just not recommended, like most partial functions and most functions that index into a list. < 1315728963 140051 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(whereas an indexwise array traversal is fine) < 1315729052 328724 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :another idiom when you _don't_ want it to fail is to say take 1 (drop n list) < 1315729066 237318 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that gives either an empty list, or a list with just one element < 1315729084 458934 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you can pattern match on drop n list directly < 1315729105 308388 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or some sort of safeIndex function. < 1315729114 802675 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also hear there's a "safeprelude" package which includes lots of such things < 1315729126 426496 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(name may or may not be right) < 1315729134 156244 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hackage safe < 1315729134 644857 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hackage.haskell.org/package/safe < 1315729154 491523 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still not recommende to index into a list if you can avoid it. :-) < 1315729165 343125 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you people like bugs? < 1315729167 222327 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1nsOKBgmOs < 1315729234 816299 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let myMap f l = let myMap' [] = []; myMap' ((i,_):is) = f (l !! i) : myMap' is in myMap' $ zip [0..] l in myMap (^2) [1,2,3,4,5] -- best map? < 1315729235 446884 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [1,4,9,16,25] < 1315729264 585692 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@slap fizzie < 1315729265 47373 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION clobbers fizzie with an untyped language < 1315729308 221563 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1315729813 320703 :jakki!~op@184.6.155.0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315730942 750518 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I now have a pretty shoddy but working program in Haskell with a function that takes a number and returns that number of valid BFJoust programs < 1315731017 580576 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO FUN NOT PASTING SO WE CAN TEAR IT TO PIECES, I MEAN SUGGEST IMPROVEMENTS < 1315731089 579835 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/LwaXg4UK < 1315731182 328555 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :eek < 1315731192 67430 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I told you it was shoddy < 1315731236 413006 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"(==) a b" is a rather strange way of saying "a == b". < 1315731247 657167 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oddly, I prefer it that way < 1315731261 705812 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's odd. < 1315731265 989941 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not consistently < 1315731405 689011 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> flip replicateM "+-<>.[]" =<< [0..] < 1315731407 623684 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ["","+","-","<",">",".","[","]","++","+-","+<","+>","+.","+[","+]","-+","--... < 1315731415 765445 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cackles evilly < 1315731448 517456 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :BEHOLD THE POWER OF THE LIST MONAD < 1315731488 681249 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :One monad to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them. < 1315731581 186414 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: i see you did not heed our warning not to index lists rampantly in is_valid :P < 1315731604 808407 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course avoiding it needs a different algorithm < 1315731611 62267 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disheeded most vigorously < 1315731646 893419 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also in to_string in gen_bfj < 1315731656 224000 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i would have done is to make is_valid take two arguments, the rest of the list and the current [] nesting level < 1315731676 615183 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can do that < 1315731688 90263 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as algorithms go, that's not very different. < 1315731717 723131 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also makes for a nicer stopping than the guard-agaist-length thing. < 1315731727 418955 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait i _is_ that. < 1315731734 678168 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1315731744 575 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :j is that < 1315731753 261352 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think i is that < 1315731776 908044 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep. so instead of p and i, let the argument be equivalent to drop i p < 1315731798 456769 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :then all you need to do is test the start of the list passed < 1315731825 220068 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*drop (i-1) p < 1315731835 25731 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell is usually 0-indexed < 1315731880 459480 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :last (take ...) is an interesting way of indexing < 1315731891 671024 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was intuitive to me < 1315731897 81144 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: you see how all your recursions are of the form is_valid p (i+1) and you only look at the i'th element of the list < 1315731916 506669 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm working in your suggestions as we speak < 1315731924 185048 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315731943 413149 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and once that is done, it should be possible to convert a lot of guards to pattern matches < 1315731977 523632 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :all except the j < 0 one, i think < 1315732017 218275 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this all is a bit weird to me actually < 1315732053 445546 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: it looks like a rather numeric/array inspired algorithm, so it needs some tweaking to be idiomatic haskell (understatement :P) < 1315732061 773883 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :heheheh < 1315732097 495873 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I saw 'j' I thought you were talking about maths and then I noticed the stuff about guards and pattern matches and was disappointed and now I'm having a crisis. < 1315732111 344688 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's largely based on an incomplete version in Python, which may go siome way to explain the stupidity < 1315732119 31510 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1315732155 88057 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let isValid [] d = d == 0; isValid ('[':cs) d = isValid cs (d+1); isValid (']':cs) d = d > 0 && isValid cs (d-1); isValid (_:cs) d = isValid cs d in map (\p -> isValid p 0) ["+[-]", "+[-", "]["] < 1315732155 746355 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [True,False,False] < 1315732213 72627 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldn't you replace "\p -> isValid p 0" with "flip isValid 0"? < 1315732238 260289 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: (`isValid` 0) >:) < 1315732264 26263 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even that < 1315732267 286169 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also yes, those are equivalent) < 1315732273 352239 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, sure; though I think you'd rather have isValid take just a string, and use an isValid' internally or something. < 1315732296 371839 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb, sponsoring someone < 1315732305 331413 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is also a common idiom yes < 1315732363 593109 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: also as fizzie implies CamelCase is standard for haskell < 1315732425 546493 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :since before the word was invented, afaik < 1315732480 638259 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let valid_things = (pure <$> "+-><") `interleave` ((('[' :) . (++ "]")) <$> valid_things) `interleave` ((++) <$> valid_things <*> valid_things) in valid_things < 1315732481 889849 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ["+","++","[+]","+++","-","+[+]","[++]","++++",">","+-","[[+]]","++[+]","<"... < 1315732556 177204 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: incidentally although converting from number to string is a bit weird, haskell has a function corresponding nearly to your to_string in its Numeric module < 1315732562 671080 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back < 1315732579 834259 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is my method any good < 1315732586 347148 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm probably missing something < 1315732607 388105 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map (flip (showIntAtBase 7 ("+-<>.[]" !!)) "") [0..] < 1315732609 114406 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ["+","-","<",">",".","[","]","-+","--","-<","->","-.","-[","-]","<+","<-","... < 1315732621 677789 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :seeing as how I started from nothing, not bothering to interpret taneb's thing < 1315732686 570202 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: you seem not to have empty loops or strings < 1315732693 94380 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1315732694 829039 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :easily fixed < 1315732715 193033 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let valid_things = "" `interleave` (pure <$> "+-><") `interleave` ((('[' :) . (++ "]")) <$> valid_things) `interleave` ((++) <$> valid_things <*> valid_things) in valid_things < 1315732715 807828 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char' < 1315732716 75247 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : against inferred type... < 1315732717 283617 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, i'm not sure i can read that code :P < 1315732718 613238 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1315732727 238363 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let valid_things = [""] `interleave` (pure <$> "+-><") `interleave` ((('[' :) . (++ "]")) <$> valid_things) `interleave` ((++) <$> valid_things <*> valid_things) in valid_things < 1315732728 666972 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ["","","[]","","+","[]","[]","","-","+","[[]]","[]",">","[]","[]","","<","-... < 1315732731 375025 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(YOU GO TOO FAR) < 1315732733 500191 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops oops oops < 1315732746 10932 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm concatenating empty things :( < 1315732767 980107 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not too far at all < 1315732802 701531 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the worst part is `interleave` instead of ++ because I wanted to mix things up < 1315732844 179096 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1315732860 922810 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t interleave < 1315732861 970412 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (m :: * -> *) a. (MonadLogic m) => m a -> m a -> m a < 1315732863 307192 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let valid_things = [""] `interleave` (pure <$> "+-><") `interleave` ((('[' :) . (++ "]")) <$> valid_things) `interleave` (filter (not . null) $ (++) <$> valid_things <*> valid_things) in valid_things < 1315732866 892042 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : mueval-core: Time limit exceeded < 1315732868 712862 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah that one again < 1315732868 902929 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1315732932 609342 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let valid_things = [""] `interleave` (pure <$> "+-><") `interleave` ((('[' :) . (++ "]")) <$> valid_things) `interleave` (filter (not . null) . ((++) <$> valid_things <*> valid_things)) in valid_things < 1315732933 265999 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char' < 1315732933 426065 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : against inferred type... < 1315732937 54031 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1315732941 159927 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right now i understand the gist < 1315732944 821910 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1315732946 189424 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhghh < 1315732950 593335 :jakki!~op@184.6.155.0 PART :#esoteric < 1315732953 616000 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do I do this nicely < 1315732983 985404 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/rX9yqkLY < 1315733022 839122 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, in my text editor the =s in is_valid' were all lined up nicely < 1315733024 157540 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let valid_things = [""] `interleave` (pure <$> "+-><") `interleave` ((('[' :) . (++ "]")) <$> valid_things) `interleave` ((++) <$> valid_things <*> valid_things $ filter (not . null)) in valid_things < 1315733024 778936 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type `a -> a1' < 1315733024 938786 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : against inferred type `[[GHC... < 1315733026 531261 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: what about (++) <$> "+-><" <*> valid_things ? < 1315733028 231181 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops oops < 1315733042 619790 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1315733051 841243 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: then [things] won't end on the left hand side of a concatenated valid thing? < 1315733057 258570 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: i mean, don't try to have valid_things combined with itself < 1315733069 9761 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, so duplicate that part too? < 1315733098 881704 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(++) <$> ("+-><" `interleave` thatLoopPart) <*> valid_things < 1315733106 471463 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :will that work < 1315733149 770737 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do fmap pure on the "+-><", I'd imagine so < 1315733177 504537 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : How does one do comments in Haskell? < 1315733182 867025 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- < 1315733189 778198 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :{-...-} for multiline < 1315733215 232889 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: oh right. < 1315733253 419343 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let safe_things = (pure <$> "+-><") `interleave` ((('[' :) . (++ "]")) <$> valid_things); valid_things = safe_things `interleave` ((++) <$> safe_things <*> safe_things) in valid_things < 1315733254 716271 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ["+","++","[+]","+[+]","-","+-","[++]","+[++]",">","+>","[[+]]","+[[+]]","<... < 1315733264 869521 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops I forgot the [""] < 1315733272 718855 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/DdV53DSb < 1315733279 969418 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let safe_things = (pure <$> "+-><") `interleave` ((('[' :) . (++ "]")) <$> valid_things); valid_things = safe_things `interleave` [""] `interleave` ((++) <$> safe_things <*> safe_things) in valid_things < 1315733281 126417 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ["+","++","","+[+]","[+]","+-","-","+[++]","[++]","+>",">","+[]","[]","+<",... < 1315733285 683128 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1315733330 367133 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hang on a minute! < 1315733339 242191 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: hm i think your to_string will fail to produce not just "+", but any string starting with + < 1315733349 289907 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1315733355 991616 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It actually doesn't < 1315733405 786221 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can try it and see < 1315733418 362817 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let safe_things = (pure <$> "+-><") ++ ((('[' :) . (++ "]")) <$> valid_things); valid_things = [""] ++ safe_things ++ ((++) <$> safe_things <*> safe_things) in valid_things < 1315733419 833595 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ["","+","-",">","<","[]","[+]","[-]","[>]","[<]","[[]]","[[+]]","[[-]]","[[... < 1315733441 577078 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it never gets to the concatenation that way :( interleave is much better < 1315733446 91939 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: erm i think you want (++) <$> safe_things <*> valid_things < 1315733468 516643 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1315733480 903451 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then it will concatenate things with the empty string :( < 1315733495 88842 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any way to fix it < 1315733538 516223 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: um that is not a problem < 1315733555 523565 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :duplicates? < 1315733562 292149 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :just drop safe_things ++ itself < 1315733569 847318 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1315733586 624900 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let to_string n = if n == 0 then "" else ("+-<>.[]" !! (mod n 7)) : to_string (div n 7) in map to_string [0..] < 1315733587 613335 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ["","-","<",">",".","[","]","+-","--","<-",">-",".-","[-","]-","+<","-<","<... < 1315733611 44829 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let safe_things = (pure <$> "+-><") `interleave` ((('[' :) . (++ "]")) <$> valid_things); valid_things = [""] `interleave` ((++) <$> safe_things <*> valid_things) in valid_things < 1315733612 395222 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ["","+","++","+++","++++","+++++","++++++","+++++++","++++++++","+++++++++"... < 1315733617 390789 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops I messed up < 1315733624 73172 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there is an entirely different way of doing this < 1315733625 465600 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or did i < 1315733655 331361 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let to_string n = if n == 0 then "" else ("+-<>.[]" !! (mod n 7)) : to_string (div n 7) in elem "++" . takeWhile ((<= 2) . length) $ map to_string [0..] < 1315733657 59502 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : False < 1315733664 643414 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: it never produces "++" < 1315733682 954953 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let safe_things = (pure <$> "+-><") `interleave` ((('[' :) . (++ "]")) <$> valid_things); valid_things = [""] `interleave` ((++) <$> valid_things <*> safe_things) in valid_things < 1315733684 179327 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ["","+","[]","-","[+]",">","[[]]","<","[-]","[[+]]","[>]","[[[]]]","[<]","[... < 1315733687 330504 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't like + at the end < 1315733688 89191 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's better < 1315733717 133917 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let safe_things = (pure <$> "+-><") `interleave` ((('[' :) . (++ "]")) <$> valid_things); valid_things = ((++) <$> valid_things <*> safe_things) `interleave` [""] in valid_things < 1315733720 572543 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : mueval-core: Time limit exceeded < 1315733731 593849 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: you are essentially printing a number in base 7 and + corresponds to 0 so it can never be the most significant digit < 1315733733 858764 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Considert that any valid, non-null BFJoust program must be of one of the three following formats: < 1315733759 657531 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of "+", "-", "<", ">", and "." < 1315733767 59826 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: generating them based on those formats is what I've been doing < 1315733782 704266 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A valid BFJoust program surrounded by "[" and "]" < 1315733796 798282 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a concatenation of two valid BFJoust programs < 1315733798 661898 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let safe_things = (pure <$> "+-><") `interleave` ((('[' :) . (++ "]")) <$> valid_things); valid_things = ((++) <$> valid_things <*> safe_things) `interleave` [""] in valid_things -- take a look at this < 1315733802 93679 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : mueval-core: Time limit exceeded < 1315733806 84271 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait oops < 1315733808 216772 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong one < 1315733822 880713 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Any idea how to get the missing programs into it? < 1315733824 366415 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let safe_things = (pure <$> "+-><") `interleave` ((('[' :) . (++ "]")) <$> valid_things); valid_things = [""] `interleave` ((++) <$> valid_things <*> safe_things) in valid_things -- take a look at this < 1315733825 662196 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ["","+","[]","-","[+]",">","[[]]","<","[-]","[[+]]","[>]","[[[]]]","[<]","[... < 1315733845 490401 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: well generate it some other way than converting from a number... < 1315733876 96826 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, how is your thing going? < 1315733886 426726 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: that basically says one of +->< or [program] or program++program but it's a bit trickier because it deals with empty programs too and empty loops < 1315733895 91559 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll dissect it: < 1315733909 291138 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`interleave` is basically ++ but it mixes things up so you get some stuff from both sides mixed in < 1315733913 114168 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: interleave`: not found < 1315733944 69581 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :safe_things is the list of all things that don't need concatenation < 1315733960 864812 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(pure <$> "+-><") is ["+", "-", ">", "<"] < 1315733988 411687 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :((('[' :) . (++ "]")) puts [ on left and ] on right < 1315734013 676381 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the <$> valid things makes it map onto all valid programs < 1315734017 628642 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you'll ever get, for instance, [+][-] < 1315734022 928967 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll get that < 1315734069 96941 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: program = empty | command program, where command is your safe_things < 1315734077 684375 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :valid_things is the null program or a valid program concatenated with a non-null non-concatenated program < 1315734134 205567 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: so, valid_things = empty | safe_things valid_things < 1315734163 785058 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: to get [+][-] first you'd look at the concat case in valid_things, on the left you'd go to safe_things, take the [] case, then safe things again, and the + case. now we're on the other side of the concat case. take safe_things, [], - < 1315734215 580304 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: oh right <$> is an alias for fmap, if you didn't already know < 1315734251 588245 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: oh hm i think (++) <$> valid_things <*> safe_things might not actually produce all possibilities when safe_things is an infinite list < 1315734256 324313 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and <*> in this case takes a list of functions on the left, and a list of arguments on the right, and applies each function to each argument < 1315734261 414604 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/might/does/ < 1315734265 899064 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no < 1315734281 130656 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need an interleaving variant of it. < 1315734311 476839 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i vaguely recall there was an interleaving bind variant last that MonadLogic module came up here < 1315734312 815712 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in use a version of liftM2 derived from >>- rather than <$> and <*> ? < 1315734316 970642 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (>>-) < 1315734318 123205 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (MonadLogic m) => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b < 1315734320 443525 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one < 1315734325 948010 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1315734348 495962 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :MonadLogic is of course way overkill for this :P < 1315734396 916990 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: even my replicateM one-liner above may be overkill for a beginner. a list comprehension might be the thing... < 1315734436 537757 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it _is_ sort of equivalent... < 1315734477 722187 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let lm2 f m n = m >>- return . f >>- (n >>- flip ($)); safe_things = (pure <$> "+-><") `interleave` ((('[' :) . (++ "]")) <$> valid_things); valid_things = [""] `interleave` lm2 (++) valid_things safe_things in valid_things < 1315734478 378448 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Precedence parsing error < 1315734478 537951 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : cannot mix `Control.Monad.Logic.Class.>>-' [i... < 1315734482 153889 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1315734521 325132 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :double oops < 1315734546 704658 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: also i _have_ seen on wikipedia a way to do base conversion that works for your purpose, even if i think converting from a number is a digression < 1315734574 321493 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let lm2 f m n = m >>- (return . f) >>- \ f' -> n >>- (return . f'); safe_things = (pure <$> "+-><") `interleave` ((('[' :) . (++ "]")) <$> valid_things); valid_things = [""] `interleave` lm2 (++) valid_things safe_things in valid_things < 1315734574 815390 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've just thought of something that fits my psychology for fixing my program < 1315734575 736612 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ["","+","++","[]","+++","-","+[]","[+]","[]+",">","+-","[++]","++[]","<","+... < 1315734581 191595 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: all better? < 1315734585 768882 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the trick iirc is to use digits 1..7 instead of 0..6 < 1315734610 781416 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: hopefully :P < 1315734709 214348 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1315734723 126584 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: your is_valid' looks pretty idiomatic now, anyhow < 1315734746 169290 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now to work on gen_bfj < 1315734758 972051 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: oh wait no it doesn't quite < 1315734776 850989 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong! < 1315734783 245745 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let lm2 f m n = m >>- (return . f) >>- \ f' -> n >>- (return . f'); safe_things = (pure <$> "+-><") `interleave` ((('[' :) . (++ "]")) <$> valid_things); valid_things = [""] `interleave` lm2 (++) valid_things safe_things; from_nat = (valid_things !!) in from_nat 10 < 1315734783 993594 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :is_valid' p@('[':_) i = is_valid' (tail p) (i+1) < 1315734784 630186 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "+-" < 1315734786 656647 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be < 1315734806 383666 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :is_valid' ('[':r) i = is_valid' r (i+1) < 1315734820 417702 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, that's clever < 1315734830 653523 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :never use tail if you can just match :) < 1315734856 257774 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :clever/idiomatic < 1315734863 594489 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also a lot more intuitive to me?? idk < 1315734883 152016 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intuitivity is relative < 1315734903 347709 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought last (take n xs) was intuitive to get the nth element of xs < 1315734916 539464 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a function for that it's called (!!) < 1315734940 924042 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Is this base thing... bijective notation? < 1315734943 196915 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also if I was doing it in your style I'd probably do head (drop ...) < 1315734948 83843 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: last (take n xs) will do strange things if your list is neither empty nor length >= n < 1315734970 830030 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: well bijective to strings of digits, afair < 1315734995 710093 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bijective_numeration < 1315735013 392055 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes that was it < 1315735146 335932 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: i think all you need is to subtract 1 from n before the rest if it's non-zero < 1315735433 436533 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/1HvF9w2s < 1315735500 775077 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1315735504 450249 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for to_string, instead of checking if n == 0 you could do pattern matching < 1315735515 33964 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :to_string 0 = ""; to_string n = ... < 1315735850 473752 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I think is_valid could be written as (== 0) . foldl (\ c -> case c of '[' -> (+ 1); ']' -> subtract 1; _ -> id) 0 or some such < 1315735878 861246 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait no I messed it up < 1315735880 933025 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1315735971 801178 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :foldr not foldl. I forgot about the argument order in the provided function. alternatively, use foldl but do flip on the lambda. < 1315736029 114179 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty much exactly the same as what you wrote, just shorter. < 1315736165 411859 :nooga!~nooga@apn-95-41-22-200.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1315736241 33863 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No instance for (Num (a0 -> b0)) /n arising from the literal `0' /n Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Num (a0 -> b0)) /n In the second argument of `foldr', namely `0' /n In the second argument of `(.)', namely /n `foldr /n (\ c /n -> case c of { /n '[' -> (+ 1) /n ']' -> subtract 1 /n _ -> id }) /n 0 /n "[]"' /n In the expression: /n (== 0) /n . foldr /n (\ c /n -> case c of { /n '[' -> (+ 1) < 1315736241 194083 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :']' -> subtract 1 /n _ -> id }) /n 0 /n "[]" < 1315736264 863601 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1315736273 546301 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :should have type checked what I wrote.... < 1315736274 478653 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: you have to do a check that the level never goes negative < 1315736286 3479 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I forgot about that < 1315736304 164586 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy enough to fix < 1315736309 655451 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :will do < 1315736327 863813 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my program, "[[[]]]" is number 31129 < 1315736344 423447 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: when you see "No instance for (Num (... -> ...))" it usually means you have given a function too few arguments < 1315736366 936816 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ghc is trying to find out how to treat a function as a number < 1315736434 790714 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that applies to other classes than Num as well < 1315736632 48994 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe False (== 0) . (foldrM (\ c -> case c of '[' -> return . (+ 1); ']' -> \ n -> if n == 0 then Nothing else return (n - 1); _ -> return) 0) < 1315736641 83885 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it got a bit ugly < 1315736653 112153 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> maybe False (== 0) . (foldrM (\ c -> case c of '[' -> return . (+ 1); ']' -> \ n -> if n == 0 then Nothing else return (n - 1); _ -> return) 0) "[]" < 1315736653 770155 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: `foldrM' < 1315736662 164546 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's in Data.Foldable < 1315736675 916090 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : :: (Foldable t, Monad m) => (a -> b -> m b) -> b -> t a -> m b < 1315736687 486254 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am trying to avoid monads, mainly because I haven't learnt them yet < 1315736691 633689 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1315736758 95321 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the maybe monad it's simple < 1315736770 307225 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :famous last words < 1315736774 383852 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehe < 1315736843 568844 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe False (== 0) = (== Just 0), methinks :P < 1315736870 436709 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works too < 1315736917 864682 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my line, Nothing is failure, return (which is Just) is success. basically I'm doing the same old fold but if I'm going to go under 0 I fail, and at the end, use maybe (or (== Just 0) that works too and may even be more clear) to make sure it's didn't fail and the result was 0 < 1315736935 711514 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw it is possible to construct a parenthesis matching Monoid :) < 1315736976 859181 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but having to make a monoid instance means no 1liners!!! < 1315736984 305643 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly so < 1315737193 230257 :nooga!~nooga@apn-95-41-22-200.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 259 seconds < 1315737988 474924 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :" moo" <<< moo < 1315737998 2655 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :moo < 1315738179 88505 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1315738249 178401 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1315738409 946510 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I believe you can create instances of Object in Java, though they're perhaps not terribly useful." <<< well you create one every time you create an object don't you < 1315738469 309627 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can create instances of object to synchronize on < 1315738471 339161 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's useful < 1315738772 567163 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: do you know how fast you can make that numbers in binary vs bf programs bijection? < 1315738819 839849 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1315738822 655680 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :enumerating is kind of trivial < 1315738879 210293 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you'd think it would be approximately proportional to the size of the final number < 1315738908 912627 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :final number? < 1315738917 902102 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...the result < 1315738958 15226 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but as i recall a naive encoding tended to give very large numbers for some bf programs < 1315738999 551694 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because one direction of deep nesting got exponential overhead) < 1315739007 809478 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :err right, all my thinking goes into typing since i switched to dvorak just now < 1315739048 921676 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd want an encoding where the size of the number was not too far from the size of the bf program. < 1315739084 161935 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that was my initial observation too < 1315739102 337958 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :why to dvorak, and not to colemak? < 1315739106 961030 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you made a poor decision < 1315739149 231452 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :typematrix doesn't sell it yet < 1315739162 454438 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need a special kb to type in dvorak or colemak < 1315739171 32962 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are programs to change automatically for windows, mac and linux < 1315739191 47086 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you can get a packet of stickers to put on the keyboard itself < 1315739195 740877 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want < 1315739198 761989 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you can have it on scren < 1315739217 658361 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean a skin for it. so i figured i'll learn this first < 1315739296 396222 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i do have a skin for dvorak < 1315739303 307137 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/KB_Maltron_3D_US.svg "United-States Maltron 3D Keyboard-Layout" what's a 3d keyboard-layout < 1315739314 291778 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1315739329 741553 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the keyboard itself is blank < 1315739352 64547 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Kinesis-Contoured_Keyboard_Classic-2.jpg is it something like this < 1315739437 228795 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :l is the only obvious mistake in dvorak imo < 1315739625 939154 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahaha, http://www.flickr.com/photos/sermoa/5421634445/ < 1315739662 449106 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i have a hunch they'll make a skin soon < 1315739728 286123 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems to work < 1315739755 976925 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :typity typity is fun to colemak < 1315739879 768022 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i'm gonna learn all of them anyway, order is prolly irrelevant < 1315740687 430648 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i set my layolt to colemak for some fun < 1315740746 872651 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that took a long time to type) < 1315740861 632032 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1315740867 493004 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one do you normally use < 1315740942 764942 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :qwerty; haven't bothered changeng < 1315741023 151449 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have always wanted to swich to a more sensible layout, but it seemed pointless before i'd gotten rid of the horrible slanted rows < 1315741073 230000 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that was the main problem anyway < 1315741110 933461 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :slanted rows? ah, yes, those. < 1315741125 552688 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or columns < 1315741239 213624 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never really got used to it < 1315741260 386733 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it made no sense < 1315741383 152630 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit weird how s moved over a space to make room for r, rather than r taking d's spot, conredering it's supposed to be qwerty-familiar < 1315741412 131158 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I invented D&D spells "Cure No Wounds" and "Inflict No Wounds", which are 0-level swift action spells curing or inflicting zero points of damage. < 1315741412 701253 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that took forever) < 1315741473 30115 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :colemak is qwerty familiar? what a horrible idea < 1315741500 103096 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1315741546 186631 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what's the point? < 1315741548 325565 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :QWERTY was invented to prevent type from jamming, but that isn't important for computers. < 1315741549 374171 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just make a perfect layout :/ < 1315741588 846012 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Although they cure/inflict zero damage, they still count as healing damage or inflicting damage for any other effects that would depend on that. For example Cure No Wounds still makes dying creatures stable. < 1315741622 533214 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315741635 350783 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it just a common misconception that that's just a common misconception < 1315741684 598507 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that took me over a minute to type :P < 1315741718 11342 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: apparently also made such that "typewriter" is on the top row, according to the colemak site < 1315741725 489826 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people say QWERTY is designed to make faster typing, and some say it is designed to make slowing typing. But I don't think either of these is true. Good typist can type fast < 1315741741 524538 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: I did know "typewriter" is on the top row, but as far as I know that is coincidence < 1315741752 763040 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1315741803 230895 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :For effective use of computer, you should learn to type fast, too. But more so than typewriter because the computer has more keys. < 1315741803 746047 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never heard anyone refute that it was a design goal < 1315741825 819448 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the misconception is so common that a correct conception would be nothing short of treason < 1315741882 838431 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but everyone nowadays says qwerty never had other goals < 1315741903 300892 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Quit: Goodbye < 1315741909 494970 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that that jamming thing is bs < 1315741931 246075 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's related to illuminati < 1315741937 34372 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's ask wp < 1315741960 829881 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :home of the current truth < 1315742060 504653 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you replace abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz as q=a,w=b,e=c,r=d,t=e,y=f,u=g,i=h,o=i,p=j,a=k,s=l,d=m,f=n,g=o,h=p,j=q,k=r,l=s,z=t,x=u,c=v,v=w,b=x,n=y,m=z < 1315742094 539606 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the bible will contain instructions to build a nuclear powered ufo < 1315742124 179631 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: I doubt it. But even if it is true, which version of the Bible do you mean, anyways? < 1315742127 330474 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wp refutes it :D < 1315742135 973074 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: all of them >:-) < 1315742147 537923 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i switch to this colemak thing or dvorak i'll need to do some rebinding and make a key toggle/qwerty for when it is more convenient < 1315742156 850638 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of them in English, or all of them that use the same alphabet as English? < 1315742178 15819 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can facts be this hard to keep consistent < 1315742221 135944 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: i have all three integrated in my kb < 1315742247 106669 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1315742275 606655 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a dvorak mode light even < 1315742277 503257 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: its just the ideas other people have conditioned me with. < 1315742333 498580 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :colemak i didn't know about, i just found http://www.flickr.com/photos/sermoa/5421634445/ < 1315742398 997500 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(rebinding in things like xmonad and vim (unless i switch to emacs or something as well)) < 1315742417 258793 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20, that the Bible, if you swap letters like that, literally cotains everything there is to know? < 1315742471 565626 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :We've finally received the long awaited shipment of skins, so we are now ready to place an order for the Colemak (and several other) versions. We're working on getting the layouts designed now and will post as soon as we know more. < 1315742476 851223 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well well well < 1315742544 110372 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i should figure out how to get back to qwerty < 1315742577 995346 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION presses fn and dvorak key < 1315742610 370028 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and finds he already forgot how qwerty works < 1315742651 764159 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :setxkbmap us -variant qwerty did not work so i have to find the real name < 1315742656 344163 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really care about speed, all i care about is annoying my brain by making it learn new stuff < 1315742698 135203 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my reasoning as well < 1315742927 970076 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should have found my previous settings before switching :( < 1315742952 500972 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet you wish you had a dvorak button < 1315742962 61830 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1315742972 785264 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :did i mention i have a dvorak button < 1315742978 643103 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1315742981 531930 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1315742983 395092 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :just making sure < 1315742988 372232 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :see i have a dvorak button < 1315743027 751334 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also nicely aligned keys :( < 1315743040 405909 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also modified my variant of Illithid Savant prestige class by nerfing a few things and replacing the Double Savant feat with the Permanent Knowledge feat. I also want to invent doppelgangers prestige class, if I have ideas; even in case if these people are not interested to select this class < 1315743042 639205 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i love this thingie < 1315743052 773357 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything makes sense now < 1315743055 388726 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, leaving out the -variant thing seemed to work < 1315743069 565004 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :time to set up the switchy button < 1315743074 718269 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should also make an improvement of the Metamind class; the one in the book is too weak. < 1315743076 605530 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will make a dvorak button too < 1315743086 807645 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way I will have a dvorak button < 1315743087 860077 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1315743131 137259 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only problem is i have to switch between english and finnish layouts since i can't type finnish with the english one and i can't write certain programming symbols with the finnish one as this is not a finnish keyboard and lacks the keys they are usually at < 1315743139 192506 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :finnish has more symbols < 1315743156 18939 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't type that much finnish < 1315743161 3528 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I can understand why you need the multi layouts < 1315743180 741888 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :multi layouts are just for fun < 1315743185 589718 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1315743190 630556 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :qwerty and dvorak < 1315743202 561332 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i have to change the language of the kb occasionally < 1315743215 349104 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc there's a button on it in the taskbar so it's not that hard < 1315743216 204483 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hardly type any Japanese stuff; when I do, the Character Map is good enough < 1315743230 61098 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I will make my own keyboard layout < 1315743244 398189 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :optimize it with a GENETIC ALGORITHM < 1315743248 670706 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my keyboard layout will have 0 where 1 is < 1315743250 993763 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 1 where 2 is < 1315743257 769264 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 2 where 3 is etc < 1315743268 788905 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which can also be done in case of accented letters < 1315743270 772395 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you write in hexadecimal < 1315743272 97001 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And 9 where 0 is or - is? < 1315743289 65327 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: the idea is to get 0 on the left of 1 rather than the right of 9 < 1315743305 656243 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You described it backwards then < 1315743312 648299 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the Linux console allows you to type hexadecimal on the numeric pad < 1315743317 263004 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No wait, I confused myself < 1315743327 681823 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I could also move 0 to ` if relearning the numbers is too much but I doubt it will be < 1315743361 288651 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still haven't learned the numbers... < 1315743406 474712 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my keyboard layout will use capslock for something perhaps backspace like colemak < 1315743409 597606 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I liked that < 1315743435 87797 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you put function keys on the left? Can you still have the numeric pad or not? Can you make clunky IBM PC keyboard? Even though it is loud it is very good in my opinion < 1315743444 66931 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :where do you have capslock tho < 1315743451 739026 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very important < 1315743455 41023 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :capslock is on the left of a < 1315743461 349505 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1315743466 317524 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but where do you put it < 1315743471 69973 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1315743475 295062 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can live without capslock < 1315743479 636211 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1315743484 645367 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The button does both? < 1315743491 260929 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hhehe < 1315743498 758718 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can also switch to qwerty then capslock then switch back < 1315743499 415910 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you live without oxygen? < 1315743512 77041 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can turn into an elf < 1315743531 107685 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do know of a few keyboards that have the "rubout" key to left of "A" < 1315743533 486152 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but you still can't live without capslock, so < 1315743560 960120 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the perfect place for backspace is see typematrix.com < 1315743621 900497 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, yes < 1315743634 677336 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should get one of those < 1315743669 796963 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few of these keys are weird but this is okay because I can rebind them < 1315743679 608965 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just love it, can't see myself ever buying a slanted one < 1315743681 749775 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone still make the loud IBM PC keyboard, but using modern scancodes? < 1315743700 956440 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :again i mean < 1315743701 116429 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :loud keyboards are cute < 1315743718 558217 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i should prolly rebing some, like the calculator key, wtf :D < 1315743753 396471 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a calculator key too < 1315743772 871053 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you also have a tetris key < 1315743773 221732 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's lonely and circular < 1315743775 740600 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my keyboard is awful < 1315743778 535818 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no tetris < 1315743800 121949 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :weirdest shaped key is capslock < 1315743804 84715 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what they were thinking < 1315743864 202946 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a normal key bit that is the same width as tab but shorter, and then there's cliff, and then there's the rest of its space < 1315743896 850693 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's this part sticking up to normal key elevation and the rest is in stupidland < 1315743897 13083 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have only the standard keys in my computer, I don't like the one having those extras. I would put different extras, such as F13 to F16 (or possibly up to F24), and keys to enter direct scancodes and protocol commands in both directions. I would also have seven LEDs. < 1315743898 552566 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's taller than other keys? < 1315743911 602971 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :same height but part of it is shorter than the other keys < 1315743921 96935 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like an island < 1315743938 227585 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only thing I dislike about the loud IBM PC keyboard is the lack of keyboard indicator LEDs. < 1315743940 336255 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is you can find it fast when you need to rage < 1315743956 674106 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just hold shift < 1315743979 653472 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :capslock is for when things think it's acceptable to invert case < 1315743981 139767 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't type as fast when holding shift < 1315743995 550387 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'M PRETTY GOOD AT TYPING WITH SHIFT HELD DOWN, BUT MAYBE IT IS BECAUSE I TYPE WEIRDLY < 1315744012 225752 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DO PRETTY STANDARD TOUCH TYPING NOW THAT IT MAKES SENSE < 1315744023 614274 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT DIDN'T MAKE ANY SENSE WITH THE SLANTED COLUMNS, BUT NOW IT TOTALLY DOES < 1315744029 327528 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use Caps Lock more than most people probably, but generally not for rage. I just sometimes type things using all uppercase letters < 1315744051 322318 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it looks nicer < 1315744058 623263 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is for sissies < 1315744095 959621 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Such as, I usually type in Forth programs in all uppercase.) < 1315744704 25858 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1315744727 491245 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1315744810 610274 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 working days time < 1315744823 175625 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wednesday week < 1315744834 226661 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:39:58 < monqy> trying out my dvorak and colemak keys < 1315744834 475442 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:40:35 < monqy> they work < 1315744840 389756 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :accidentally in the wrong chanel originalyl < 1315744847 898472 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sorry -minecraft) < 1315744856 757748 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's okay) < 1315744871 126849 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I can forget I have these keys < 1315745006 407154 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1315745052 942487 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love my typematrix < 1315745093 442442 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1315745103 664253 :Vorpal_!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1315746597 174686 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1315746630 254709 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1315746694 250558 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1315746989 748672 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i was in kindergarten, i made a wanted poster when we were drawing shit, now wanted kind of sounds like the finnish "vanteet" which means the rim of a bicycle wheel. so the smartasses running the kindergarten told me wanted actually doesn't mean what i thought it did, but rim instead. and laughed. i was confused, and i still go through a brief am i making a mistake here when reading a < 1315746993 559420 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanted poster < 1315747018 692092 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily they are not that common < 1315747037 172473 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :children are such retards < 1315747048 915825 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least i was < 1315747275 678587 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried to explain to them that it's from the verb "to want", and makes perfect sense, but they left the issue open. i realized what the joke was a few years later, and was not amused. < 1315747321 820636 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you just talking to yourself oko. < 1315747331 118265 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...You leant a foreign language in kindergarten? < 1315747342 549994 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Silly Taneb. < 1315747343 742993 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :english is not a foreign language < 1315747348 514232 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :English isn't a foreign language. < 1315747355 891893 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finnish is < 1315747360 758798 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not < 1315747362 815743 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :in here < 1315747373 912220 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, yes it is, it's foreign. < 1315747380 528217 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll change what I said < 1315747388 659909 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The basic classification is that everything that isn't English is foreign. < 1315747388 824733 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You knew two languages in Kindergarten? < 1315747455 535019 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i knew some english and some swedish, i doubt i was at a conversation level < 1315747529 378702 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I was in kindergarten (yes, I know they aren't called that in Britain, but I wasn't in Britain at the time), there was a girl who may have been Australian/Mandarin bilingual < 1315747536 991484 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't remember too well < 1315747565 109396 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not bilingual in that sense, as you could easily tell if you heard me speak < 1315747566 543760 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1315747678 975996 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's different, i was learning english as a foreign language (i certainly considered it foreign back then) < 1315747747 577150 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, I wish I learnt Finnish or something when I was that young < 1315747802 630636 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i spent most of my time programming or playing games, i suppose the latter was my main source of english < 1315747816 714752 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hang on... how old were you then < 1315747836 432960 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm talking about my kindergarten days so about 6 < 1315747846 516666 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :6... < 1315747851 65662 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking about 4 < 1315747858 280158 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which was when I was in Kindergarten < 1315747885 553390 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was in a less official daycare thing back then < 1315747935 233246 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My house from back then has since been demolished < 1315747965 367134 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :all i remember from those days was playing sex with dolls, arguing about religion with the woman who kept it, and playing this racing game < 1315747995 786989 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that i wanted to bring my teddy bear there but apparently 4yo is too old for that shit < 1315747997 987288 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't actually remember being six < 1315748017 556188 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...That's odd < 1315748019 126660 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can because i was only one year in what i'd call kindergarten < 1315748031 242730 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that was my sixth < 1315748045 355178 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hang on, I think I can remember titbits < 1315748053 171394 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boobits < 1315748053 330771 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not very interesting ones < 1315748061 240903 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mainly me being an idiot < 1315748107 518569 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and then i drew these cartoons where girls from the kindergarten would... wait let's not go into that < 1315748171 136492 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then i convinced a guy there was this place where time would slow down the further you walked into this tunnel, and that i'd visited it by going through a door near the daycare. he later turned out to have epilepsy, coincidence? < 1315748214 534141 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn i was awesome back then, what went wrong i wonder < 1315748340 657080 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there were these rubber bands on the knobs of cupboards so us kids couldn't get in. i thought they were decorations, and would put the rubber bands back on if they had forgotten to put them there < 1315748370 729060 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the adults found this slightly hilarious < 1315748476 487112 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :then in kindergarten, kids were playing power rangers, and i thought that was just childish. so this one time, i joined their little game and beat everyone up. < 1315748560 936423 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in the first grade, kids were playing football (the one involving feet), and i picked the ball up. one of them came and asked me if they could have it back so they could keep playing. i kicked the guy in the nuts as hard as i could and kicked the ball out of the school yard < 1315748574 132980 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was not playing myself ofc < 1315748600 711492 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :First grade you was a dick < 1315748608 86579 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was such a psychopath, they almost put me in this "special school" < 1315748693 485665 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they almost transferred me straight to second grade since i was acting out because school was ridiculously easy. probably wouldn't have helped since if i found the slightest trouble solving a problem they gave us i would start crying and never stop. < 1315748714 477722 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't get how i wasn't put to sleep or something :D < 1315748798 965617 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how the fuck did i have like 10 friends < 1315748811 397259 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kids are retarded < 1315748884 91949 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once saw a confidential letter (wait, now that I think of it, how does that make sense) by my dad complaining about one of the students almost killing another < 1315748917 882718 :variable!~thing@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: I found 1 in /dev/zero < 1315748926 808191 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kids can't die < 1315748960 937674 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1315749122 134384 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone I know got run over by a car. < 1315749138 20692 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean just now, or a kid < 1315749150 237262 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 ish years ago < 1315749157 803255 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He experienced quantum immortality < 1315749160 448939 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you mean a kid < 1315749172 843989 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He would have been 14 < 1315749177 335310 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe 15 < 1315749182 25814 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not a kid < 1315749185 121819 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an adult < 1315749196 343944 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a transitionary phase < 1315749203 330482 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well true < 1315749221 388339 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :by kid i mean sub-12 usually < 1315749246 184394 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :God, do I remember sub-12? < 1315749259 145687 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i read my first c++ book when i was 11 < 1315749273 464348 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i still remember c++ so < 1315749273 633323 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :13 < 1315749283 905785 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have no clue about C++ < 1315749287 892970 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember the nasty things I did when I was 13 < 1315749297 689016 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other than output is cout >> "string" < 1315749301 551660 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was also prolly the first book over 600 pages i read < 1315749307 809840 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not < 1315749308 283947 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, it's << < 1315749314 170139 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :See! < 1315749314 991658 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but close enough < 1315749328 965060 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have that great memory, at all < 1315749335 761002 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think i was a dick anymore at 13 < 1315749371 196470 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did French for 6 years and all I can remember is "Bonjour. Ou est le W/C? Je voudrais une baguette!" < 1315749381 466118 :variable!~thing@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1315749389 681701 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1315749409 133607 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not where you buy bread man < 1315749675 838060 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and i beat one guy up when i was 10 i think, but after that, i've only received beatings < 1315749704 502808 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315749715 450976 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I was little, I was a nice, if niave idiot < 1315749745 906295 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I'm a cruel but pacifistic idiot who knows some stuff < 1315749759 915594 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was a devout preacher of atheism from the age of 5 till it became cool < 1315749862 316096 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i find pacifism has little to do with how nice you actually are, i'm sure i'd love killing people, but i wouldn't really feel right say going to the army < 1315749903 462253 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I despise violence, but I'm practically a sociopath < 1315749931 811789 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how i feel as well < 1315749954 804130 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i certainly have all kinds of feelings, but i can just shut them up if i like < 1315750000 375251 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :my ex found this a bit weird, we would just be crying and talking about how we should prolly split up, and then after a while i'm like okay let's take a break and watch a tv show k? < 1315750420 283693 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or went to do math < 1315750451 827749 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :math is the one Americanism that really bugs me < 1315750453 219033 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that doesn't sound weird at all, i guess you'd have to be there < 1315750455 788483 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why < 1315750499 647717 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only americanisms that bug me are the units < 1315750516 44544 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and numbers ofc < 1315750552 624915 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :thousand, 1-llion, 2-llion, 3-llion, 4-llion, ... vs 1-llion, 2-llion, 3-llion, 4-llion, ... < 1315750565 575178 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe illion would'be < 1315750571 492997 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ve been better < 1315750647 901847 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1315750825 960700 :sllide!~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1315752521 179437 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315753131 317189 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once made a computer game, there is a journal you can read describing someone trying to use their telephone, but every number they pushed fell off upon being pushed. < 1315753251 317269 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :was that just a part of the game? < 1315753255 356616 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds very cool < 1315753283 524579 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :They were unable to complete the call due to duplicate digits (and did not think to call the operator), but if you go to the telephone repair shop you can find the broken telephone. < 1315753304 494114 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow... sounds like a vast game < 1315753315 275338 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Together with the rules for telephone numbers in the area, you can deduce eight possible telephone numbers that they might have been trying to call. < 1315753338 867762 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then you just have to try them until one works. < 1315753548 922806 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget the other details and how to find this game now, however. < 1315753749 367302 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just made combinartory logic in BYOB < 1315753769 196253 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A modification of a graphical language aimed at children < 1315753779 976927 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, the graphical language is aimed at children < 1315753796 621456 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The modification is aimed at children who want more advanced features < 1315753818 827229 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as first-class functions < 1315753823 335121 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Procedures < 1315753829 499294 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lists-of-lists < 1315754447 294310 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have idea make up a reversible programming language used for compression. Input and output commands are reverse of each other if you "flip" in between their use. The compiled program can be a Huffman coded bitcode file. < 1315754743 51675 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would also include one kind of user-definable pure function which does not reverse. < 1315755319 97067 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flow control in I/O blocks could be restricted to something like Revaver2pi's TELEPORT command, although there might be others. Other kinds of blocks can have different kind of flow control possible. < 1315755344 252410 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could do encryption too rather than only compression. < 1315755398 559123 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-1.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi zzo38 how are you doing? < 1315755400 128443 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many kinds of reversible flow control do you know? < 1315755407 504504 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: OK < 1315755413 878269 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-1.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's fine < 1315755420 599969 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-1.vodafone-net.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is new with you? < 1315755543 444390 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose not a lot, although I have done some experimentation with programming and proposal and stuff in Haskell, and I have updated some stuff I wrote about Dungeons & Dragons, and I have think about and write about some stuff about OMEGACOM-1. < 1315755666 461102 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 . < 1315755677 217889 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A game developer can derive a great deal of benefit from a custom made virtual machine. < 1315755737 542182 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I could really say why... < 1315755833 987972 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there is any global state to the game... that global state is to be embodied in the virtual machine < 1315755873 988616 :Vorpal_!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster NICK :Vorpal < 1315755877 17720 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example.. (here he goes) < 1315755898 744653 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMEGACOM-1 is designed to be an old-style computer that does not exist but can be emulated anyways. Its processor uses bytes that are sixteen bits long. Addresses are also sixteen bits long. < 1315755906 836726 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an arcade game virtual machine could contain coin and credit counters < 1315755925 907307 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops ^embody < 1315755934 503761 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Game controllers similar to NES/Famicom could be connected to the extension ports. < 1315755935 532299 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"contain" is such peasant speak < 1315755991 310147 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text adventure games are often written for Z-machine, which is also a virtual machine, which is designed for text adventure games. < 1315756029 88671 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is omegacom-1 your own invention? < 1315756056 383284 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Usually using the Inform programming language, although some use Forth, Lisp, C, or assembly language.) < 1315756059 359050 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: Yes. < 1315756069 931265 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains it not being on google < 1315756123 606805 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup i have heard of z machine for zork. and scumm(script something utility for maniac mansion) for maniac mansion, zac mccracken, monkey island, etc < 1315756183 403811 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "another world" had some kind of vm which was talked about in a gdc (game develop conference) post mortem < 1315756276 122896 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: so i like to think my statement shows how much insight i am gathering about these things :D < 1315756295 309058 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric : if there is any global state to the game... that global state is to be embodied in the virtual machine an arcade game virtual machine could contain coin and credit counters < 1315756333 344268 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hence a text game vm would contain/embody text i/o < 1315756367 858092 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am quite proud of this minor insight, perhaps it is obvious < 1315756369 911138 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inform can also target Glulx. I don't know if there are C compilers for Glulx, and I would like to be able to compile both LLVM and Haskell into Glulx. < 1315756381 742690 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: Well, it is good thanks you write these things anyways < 1315756410 307329 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i have tried dreaming up some ultra simple systems < 1315756444 711669 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was one which consisted of i think just 2 line segments < 1315756451 983310 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or may have been 4.. i forget < 1315756487 326190 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thats all it can do.. display 2 line segments < 1315756508 457500 :MSleep!~fyrc@c-174-55-44-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude < 1315756527 475268 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not actually implemented < 1315756549 534259 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :another i thought about is using a 32bit integer as a 4x8x1 display < 1315756575 376887 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i liked the idea that a screenshot of such a display is just a single number < 1315756602 785926 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i prefered the 6x5 resolution instead < 1315756613 704063 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Screenshots of any display are just a single number. Just bigger numbers. < 1315756694 922173 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heheh < 1315756705 391540 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bravo < 1315756751 113135 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once I had idea, although I never implemented or even had many details figured out, but it is a 8 buttons, none of which can be pushed simultaneously, and a 8x8 monochrome ASCII display (no reverse video). But I realized to make the version of Pokemon Red/Blue games that could work on such a system. < 1315756800 679479 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1315756804 772247 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It even requires less ROM and RAM than the actual Pokemon Red/Blue game; nicknames can be only two letters long, and there are no full Pokemon names, they only have numbers. < 1315756806 180060 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :8x8x8? < 1315756832 356817 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you only need a subset of ascii < 1315756846 186299 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i guess its no big deal < 1315756850 728496 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: It is using the printable subset. < 1315756859 129974 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1315756860 553225 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Codes 0x20 to 0x7E) < 1315756885 472077 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in order to make more games with your system its probably best to use 8bits them < 1315756917 711472 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i look at a chessboard and i imagine scrolling < 1315756927 75723 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: Yes; but this was 7-bit codes. < 1315756955 721133 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have imagined the poor humans who have to shift the pieces one row this way or that way < 1315756974 903968 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: You can make a chessboard on 8x8 display with printable ASCII, but no extra information would be displayed. You could use flashing for cursor. < 1315757023 135074 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh.. im not sure if i am making sense.. < 1315757032 362358 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose there is a 9x9 virtual chessboard < 1315757043 58787 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could use uppercase for white pieces and lowercase for black pieces; this is common in ASCII chess diagrams. < 1315757046 127797 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could lay out the pieces on the board according to the camera < 1315757140 288793 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"RkBQKBkR" >> "kBQKBkR " < 1315757151 81725 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"RkBQKBkR" << " RkBQKBk" < 1315757160 903555 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that would be 10x10 < 1315757179 112062 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 extra imaginary columns < 1315757182 973745 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :empty < 1315757224 587956 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :FIDE chess uses 8x8 though. You could have RNBQKBNR PPPPPPPP .:.:.:.: :.:.:.:. .:.:.:.: :.:.:.:. pppppppp rnbqkbnr < 1315757232 840333 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a ridiculous idea of mine as you need to store the actual state of the board somewhere < 1315757303 520771 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at least in a sparsely populated board a DM could use a chessboard to show hte player where he is < 1315757327 477088 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a boring chesslike landscape < 1315757480 998826 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah im going on a boring tangent < 1315757486 256795 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :When playing D&D we always use graph paper if necessary to show positions. But you could have one 40x40 room involving chess. < 1315757488 975817 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :your pokemon thing is much better < 1315757523 234292 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. The pokemon thing. Attack names and item names are up to five letters long (they can have digits too). < 1315757594 287942 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could fit all relevant information in battle on the 8x8 ASCII display. You used the direction buttons, up for one attack, down for another attack, left for another attack, right for an attack; other buttons means shift, item, or surrender. < 1315757598 782858 :ive!~nn@189.179.241.111 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315757610 260732 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I think I could use only seven buttons, not eight. < 1315757615 18230 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :For everything. < 1315757655 576997 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah, for me the VM would do as much as possible natively as a kind of bios really < 1315757665 171595 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That means A is SHIFT, B is ITEM, and C is SURRENDER. < 1315757701 221733 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can see how this would be a problem in the long run.. coders would want direct access to objects to do better effects < 1315757737 9819 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(SURRENDER is like "RUN" for wild battles, and "immediately get blacked out automatically" for trainer battles.) < 1315757743 585790 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like i could say "you can only put graphics in the game by loading bitmaps" they would then want the ability to access pixel memory < 1315757958 90714 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Quit: Goodbye < 1315757986 953029 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :For battle screen, the first line tells you opponent's active pokemon number and level; second line opponent's active pokemon % of HP remaining, status, and how many opponent's inactive nonfainted pokemon remain (leave blank for wild pokemon); third line your active pokemon number, level, and nickname; fourth line your current/max HP and status; fifth, sixth, seven, and eighth lines for attacks. < 1315758006 576758 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Attacks indicate at first ^v<> for which direction to push, next five for attack name, and last two for remaining PP. < 1315758146 282351 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically considering that any interpreted instructions are likely slower, you don't want people implementing anything technical in vm code < 1315758339 406613 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1315758424 994685 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE8A3D7.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1315758721 562485 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1315758830 422538 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:01:23: hey, channel, want something to rage at? http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/k9cbj/trollscript_an_esoteric_dialect_of_brainfuck/ < 1315758834 479812 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :we saw ages ago :P < 1315758853 721581 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had everything written. On the map where you can move and stuff, you activate objects by walking into them, not by pushing the "A" button. A is MONSTER, B is INVENTORY, and C is STATUS. The status menu had two pages, and was also the menu you used if you want to use HM moves. < 1315758868 761504 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:43:22: ais523, my faith in /r/programming is vastly increased by the fact that they hated it too. < 1315758877 430785 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: they probably aren't too fond of esolangs in general :P < 1315758921 95671 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the how many'th brainfuck dialect is that? < 1315758929 738864 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: 9 billionth < 1315758944 878553 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still not aleph-0? fine then... < 1315758995 362249 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make aleph-0 dialects if you want to. < 1315759001 774425 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no please don't < 1315759017 636059 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Bitcoin Forum: Password hashes may have been leaked" < 1315759025 74067 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :l o l < 1315759033 15270 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :bitcoin PRO CRYPTOGRAPHERS < 1315759067 426079 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is cryptography related to IT security? The hashes *have* to be stored somewhere. < 1315759083 310207 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well true, but their reasons for hating it were exactly the right ones. < 1315759083 494786 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1315759085 466259 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :70) oohhh ha heh and what are your other characteristics? oh, many, madbrain but it's hardly worth it to go on with listing that list here < 1315759106 640894 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: In my fanfiction, they were using crypt() to store their Unix passwords, and that's how the attacker got in. < 1315759127 298700 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1315759129 148384 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :642) this strikes me as probably better than a singularity, because you can't trust a random AI, but you can probably trust olsner < 1315759130 629124 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1315759137 165251 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1315759140 840074 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315759142 579819 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1315759153 800902 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so wait, you knew and you didn't tell me? < 1315759171 921964 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Knew what? < 1315759174 757780 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trollscript? < 1315759177 699305 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was talked about in here < 1315759182 756609 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not my fault you don't logread < 1315759186 693903 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm the premier world expert on hating BF derivatives and substitutions! < 1315759194 235118 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad web forums typically use MD5 hashes, albeit sometimes unhashed. Better forum products use salted SHA1... < 1315759223 857619 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I remember I once invented a chess variant with a googolplex kinds of pieces, or was it a chess variant schema defining a googolplex chess variants, etc, I don't quite remember. But I had proven that the number was exactly one googolplex. < 1315759247 245877 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: It's SMF, which I think is "meant" to be decent, but... well, PHP coders. < 1315759272 132890 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess their server was compromised somehow... < 1315759952 288000 :ive!~nn@189.179.241.111 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1315759960 283336 :ive!~nn@189.179.241.111 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315760113 172899 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1315760144 801911 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1315760152 192712 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I updated proposal of more-notation; I added a note to tell you that you can use _ as names of parameters of a more-notation in a record syntax. < 1315760162 611509 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to try my hand at BytePusher < 1315760181 215929 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Try doing what with it, specifically? < 1315760192 948598 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really don't know < 1315760194 400444 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :handing it < 1315760206 122522 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learn about it? Write an implementation? Write a program to run in BytePusher? < 1315760214 105642 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :All three < 1315760218 504019 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simultaneously < 1315760270 808188 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :im reading DM's piet samples page. its truely amazing what has been accomplished with it i think < 1315760273 56805 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you make an implementation which programming language and libraries would you use? For writing programs running in BytePusher, which programming languages would you use to make tat? < 1315760288 61170 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/make tat/make that/ < 1315760293 493261 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Former, I have no idea < 1315760301 396531 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Latter, probably gedit < 1315760321 533594 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not actually sure what format BytePusher likes < 1315760333 683617 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I mean which programming language. Such as C, Python, PUSHEM, hex editor, ... < 1315760333 843588 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's binary < 1315760359 281510 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: hex editor < 1315760363 70772 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or you could also write your own assembler or programming language to compile into it < 1315760405 102694 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could write a tool to translate ASCII representation of Hex into Hex... in BRAINFUCK < 1315760422 721872 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hi there. Played any Magicka? Quite a fun game. < 1315760460 578910 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the program counter initially? < 1315760465 331553 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1315760493 252504 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait, I've figured it out < 1315760494 596017 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should but BLAH DWARF FORTRESS AND MCMAP CODING ARE THE ONLY GAMES < 1315760498 996641 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1315760501 645818 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's tricky < 1315760509 898289 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But surprisingly logical < 1315760541 349481 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote this BytePusher program: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/BytePusher/Munching_Squares.pushem < 1315760603 670892 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, have you seen the Yogscast Magicka videos < 1315760606 342308 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The binary of the program is: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/BytePusher/Munching_Squares.BytePusher < 1315760607 220540 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are the best. < 1315760637 490423 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1315760676 629645 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also wrote a BytePusher implementation (the first one available public, but not the first one written) in CWEB. < 1315760694 29566 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: No I am so behind on my yagsoccost. < 1315760702 507527 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yoghurt. < 1315760823 100398 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are now three implementations of BytePusher. If you write one, add that one too! < 1315760847 494458 :kmc!~keegan@cpe-74-68-127-232.nyc.res.rr.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1315760861 50154 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :All three of them are C programs, two using Allegro and one using SDL. < 1315760925 822240 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you make a hardware implementation, you can post that too. < 1315761120 870513 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :enhanced cweb is c? < 1315761245 42437 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enhanced CWEB is a format that has C codes, so the C codes can be compiled by a C compiler once tangled. < 1315761278 461183 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of things compile to c < 1315761319 925438 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:24:47: I am trying to avoid monads, mainly because I haven't learnt them yet < 1315761344 73311 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm getting closer to monads < 1315761347 19837 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: monads aren't A Thing to avoid, they're just two functions that a lot of types happen to implement < 1315761362 678308 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :please, stop thinking like that, WAY too much importance is put on monads by people who don't know Haskel < 1315761376 268990 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like "I'm avoiding because I don't know it yet" < 1315761380 868941 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: You should read the guide "You could have invented monads yourself, and you most likely already have", in my oppinion. < 1315761383 871280 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just learn things whenever they become convenient to use < 1315761401 868619 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: do we really need a monad tutorial war? :p < 1315761410 558198 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm working through lyah < 1315761462 440172 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entering a war. I'm not fighting other monad tutorials. < 1315761523 718832 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I mean is, the codes in @c blocks and named chunks are C codes, although they can also reference other named chunks, and can include formatting codes. In standard CWEB that is basically all of it. In Enhanced CWEB, you can do that too (and BytePusher.w uses no extensions other than @r and @s !), but you can also have @{ ... @} (interpreted blocks), @m (metamacros), and more. < 1315761530 97601 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: I am! < 1315761534 233791 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nuclear waste or DIE. < 1315761552 545790 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither @r nor @s ! are needed for tangling though. You might get error message but it will compile correctly anyways. < 1315761582 788295 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ask the japanese guys: Nuclear waste *and* die! < 1315761608 772511 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"@s TeX !" means to not index anything defined using @s before this point < 1315761716 900189 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :These things are what I meant when I said it is a C code. < 1315761718 935514 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:19:20: the perfect place for backspace is see typematrix.com < 1315761719 160877 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:20:21: ah, yes < 1315761719 321096 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:20:34: I should get one of those < 1315761728 100873 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately they're scissor-switch. < 1315761733 872473 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can buy non-slanted keyboards with decent switches, though. < 1315762144 871074 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's scissor switch < 1315762204 237831 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what's the problem with it < 1315762223 553832 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not buckling spring, I guess. < 1315762264 775315 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the touch is bad? i've only used laptops in the last many years so i don't really notice anything wrong < 1315762279 148854 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: scissor switch = laptop-style keys < 1315762284 618353 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :better than rubber dome but < 1315762289 560935 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: buckling spring is overrated < 1315762296 382335 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i know < 1315762298 817542 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, unless you have pneumatic fingers it's not very comfortable < 1315762311 941976 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: get one of these http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8c/Kinesis-keyboard.jpg :P < 1315762320 986907 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think they have dvorak switches too but who cares you can do that in software < 1315762351 24505 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :much nicer if it's in the kb tho < 1315762359 401406 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but umm that's a bit ugly < 1315762367 126554 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they come in black :D < 1315762369 739964 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if rubber dots are out, buckling spring is overrated, and scissor switch is also "unfortunately", what would you recommend? Microswitch? < 1315762375 852235 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see < 1315762388 908782 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: standard mechanical switch? < 1315762420 847615 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is certainly nicer than the usual type of keyboard in touch < 1315762421 291957 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: http://kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-blk720x471.jpg http://kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-pro_met720x471.jpg ok those are still pretty ugly < 1315762425 792384 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's mostly is what you call microswitch, if the keyboard is smaller than your desk, isn't it? < 1315762429 272785 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no slanted rows though :P < 1315762437 418202 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: Who the hell buys a keyboard smaller than their desk? < 1315762444 474781 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just kind of roll from one key to another. < 1315762447 967542 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like a bouncy castle. < 1315762450 216623 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i wouldn't call that pretty nor ugly < 1315762458 870619 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas my typematrix is just plain fucking sexy < 1315762469 712149 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get a Datahand, Datahands are awesome. < 1315762480 449910 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://desktopped.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/datahand-keyboard.jpg < 1315762496 598875 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that thing, i have certainly considered that < 1315762497 910614 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just flick your fingers around... it also has a pointing device built in, i don't remember how it works though < 1315762504 938029 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it costs like a million right < 1315762522 935468 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they stopped producing them... maybe they started again < 1315762525 782650 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We are currently out of stock and awaiting delivery of DataHand Pro II units ... our supplier has had difficulty moving to a new facility which has delayed our production...we will post the schedule as soon as it is known, in the interim, please contact DataHand sales at sales@datahand.com." < 1315762533 419311 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think its like a thousand bucks though < 1315762539 614275 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Professional II-USB Mouse < 1315762539 792368 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :$995.00 < 1315762539 955374 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Buy Now < 1315762542 705947 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :less :D < 1315762552 405304 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah not really feeling like spending another thousand right away < 1315762563 582199 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :another? :p < 1315762576 881269 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well a third one within 30 days < 1315762600 422782 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: Topres are kind of cool but that's really just a combination of switches. < 1315762610 749539 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :come on, is there anything more important than keyboards? < 1315762625 259052 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget the exact construction... it's something like a rubber dome with a buckling spring underneath it and a mechanical switch above it. < 1315762626 335787 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1315762635 119314 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what? $995 for a MOUSE? < 1315762635 332320 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think velvet is involved somewhere, but that might just be my imagination. < 1315762635 976568 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1315762642 950979 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: This isn't exactly the channel for important things. < 1315762648 958850 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No, a typing and pointing device. < 1315762654 442940 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://desktopped.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/datahand-keyboard.jpg < 1315762661 581300 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It uses MAGNETS. < 1315762671 506510 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does it, erm, work? < 1315762679 500634 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a 3d mouse that was 400 < 1315762682 396793 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it certainly looks futuristic though < 1315762686 547241 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You put your hands in those little dimple things, and push up/down/left/right/downwards to type. < 1315762692 414709 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :They use really light magnets or something. < 1315762694 291100 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :As keyboard are as important as I expect, the problem was spending $1k on two other things, but not for the keyboard... < 1315762703 582039 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also a pointing thing, I think that's where the thumbs go, but I dunno how it works. < 1315762716 976481 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: those two other things were my first real computer in years < 1315762717 138087 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: Oh, I misread the line. < 1315762718 458198 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, wow. Is it any good? < 1315762724 798237 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :including a keyboard < 1315762726 512899 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you were complaining about all this unimportant keyboard talk. :p < 1315762763 482485 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't spend 1k on a keyboard. < 1315762766 536825 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, I gather it's as ergonomic as they come. I can't imagine it'd be any less efficient than a keyboard with practice, although maybe if you type a bunch of punctuation and modifier keys it might be inconvenient? Dunno. < 1315762776 196155 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think some users use foot pedals for ctrl and alt. < 1315762781 382480 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so not for C coding? < 1315762783 316138 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or gaming < 1315762783 476440 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i had an extra thousand, i would buy all the keyboards. < 1315762796 254489 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I meant a _lot_ of punctuation. < 1315762805 482900 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh, mkry? < 1315762807 365522 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like if your job was to write comic expletives all day. < 1315762825 773077 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I haven't really hard anything bad about them apart from, you know, the price. :p < 1315762835 240353 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://elitekeyboards.com/images/topre_keysw.png < 1315762837 500800 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is how topres work. < 1315762851 917992 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The springs look cool: http://scalable.com/conversation/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/topre.jpg < 1315762854 608660 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, with work I meant more like, how do you use them < 1315762863 904994 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes kind of < 1315762870 143908 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You put your hands in those little dimple things, and push up/down/left/right/downwards to type. < 1315762870 376204 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : They use really light magnets or something. < 1315762879 582445 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :DataHand =/= Topre, I'm talking about two things at once. < 1315762884 246626 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yeah, right, but shift? and so on < 1315762893 193066 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :emacs might be painful with it too < 1315762902 554227 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not with foot pedals it wouldn't. < 1315762910 393743 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.atpm.com/7.05/images/dh-right-wells.jpg < 1315762915 928812 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This bigger image of a datahand might answer your questions. < 1315762931 798590 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm yeah < 1315762935 762080 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does NAS stand for? < 1315762940 346361 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nfc < 1315762999 953329 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :separately moving my fingers in all four directions sounds a bit strainy, but maybe it's actually nice enough < 1315763010 6280 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's related to the numeric mode, or something. < 1315763015 349337 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1315763017 400605 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gather the switches are very light. < 1315763023 2609 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, fizzie probably knows more about them than me. :p < 1315763026 174545 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I was taking a peek at the http://www.datahand.com/pdfs/ProIIUserGuide.pdf ) < 1315763027 512390 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can imagine it would have to be < 1315763029 69097 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least he answered that ONE QU- oh. < 1315763040 797125 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie the human search engine < 1315763063 623715 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway, have you played Magicka? < 1315763063 941975 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Numbers And Symbols, maybe? < 1315763108 992110 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I answered that. < 1315763113 384693 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The answer is no.) < 1315763116 344964 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I? < 1315763125 531930 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well maybe. It is quite fun. < 1315763168 506130 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it is however yet another indie game from Sweden < 1315763185 968578 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :God I hate Swedes. < 1315763223 394305 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : The DataHand® System plugs into all personal computers (ATs and newer) < 1315763223 563613 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and compatibles, without the need for additional hardware or software. The < 1315763223 724503 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :following computers are also supported: < 1315763223 724673 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :· Apple Macintosh, with an adapter for the Apple Desktop Bus (ADB) or < 1315763223 724780 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Universal Serial Bus (USB) < 1315763224 284905 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :· Hewlett Packard X-Terminal < 1315763226 428684 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :· IBM PS/2 < 1315763226 740017 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, why? The voice acting is funny, it is in some invented language with English and Swedish phrases mixed in. < 1315763228 569638 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :· IBM RS6000 < 1315763230 449245 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :· IBM 3270 mainframes < 1315763232 549394 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :· NCD 101 X-Terminal < 1315763234 401922 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :· Silicon Graphics’ Indy and Indigo II (currently being tested) < 1315763236 395204 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :· SUN (usable type-5 keyboard using SUN’s interface converter) < 1315763238 423342 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1315763240 606976 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: FUUUUUCK SWEEEEEEEEEEDES < 1315763248 768491 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Utilyzing" -- this manual's spelling sure is OPTOMIZED. < 1315763264 931778 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that is quite a list of weird and obsolete connectors < 1315763291 476195 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean no one really cares about anything but USB these days.l < 1315763343 903373 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an old product < 1315763348 446686 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus the amusingness < 1315763351 541833 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1315763380 364381 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i found a nice(but fairly long) quote < 1315763409 498270 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :'There is a vitality, a life force, an energy, a quickening that is translated through you into action, and because there is only one of you in all of time, this expression is unique. And if you block it, it will never exist through any other medium and it will be lost. The world will not have it. It is not your business to determine how good it is nor how valuable nor how it compares with other expre < 1315763409 854935 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ssions. < 1315763414 32351 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is your business to keep it yours clearly and directly, to keep the channel open. You do not even have to believe in yourself or your work. You have to keep yourself open and aware to the urges that motivate you. Keep the channel open. ... No artist is pleased. [There is] no satisfaction whatever at any time. There is only a queer divine dissatisfaction, a blessed unrest that keeps us marching and < 1315763414 395984 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes us more alive than the others.'" < 1315764408 565607 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1315764452 36197 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Do you have any specific reason to prefer the atomic waste tutorial? < 1315764496 271343 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: I don't believe there is a real atomic waste tutorial, just a gag. < 1315764508 122670 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is. < 1315764515 951259 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. < 1315764524 977450 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :It even is one of the "classical" tutorials. < 1315764539 3218 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikibooks.org/w/index.php?title=Haskell/Understanding_monads&oldid=933545 < 1315764546 546701 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm kind of glad I know less about monad tutorials than I thought. < 1315764571 100633 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Monad_tutorials_timeline is more than you ever wanted to know < 1315764577 762161 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I just found that. < 1315764602 51062 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The most recommended Haskell tutorial ever." I wonder if LYAH has overtaken that yet. < 1315764645 313927 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't read monad tutorials since years. < 1315764665 900588 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should read the lyah one to know what's currently "in". < 1315764740 328432 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's just a chapter on them in the context of a larger tutorial. < 1315764745 900078 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly it comes after applicative functors, which is nice. < 1315764754 814109 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Also linked from that timeline. < 1315764761 269790 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION vaguely remembers the atomic waste tutorial < 1315764793 236909 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :And maybe I should read the "applicative functors" tutorial more urgently than the monad tutorial. < 1315764799 829515 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the monadsplosion in 2006. < 1315764814 453627 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suddenly EVERYONE was asking what a monad was. < 1315764824 512151 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1315764831 692437 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :("was"; we revised the definition in two thousand and twelve to include Applicative as a superclass.) < 1315764866 532886 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This delightful "tutorial" presents monads as monsters which devour values, use them to feed other monsters and regurgitate them when slain." < 1315764889 118999 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"There's a monster in my Haskell"? < 1315764899 111157 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(OK, admit, read that title some hours ago) < 1315764930 888725 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a monad. < 1315764955 672056 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK that was brilliant I need recognition for tat. < 1315764956 720080 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that. < 1315764962 621196 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION clap < 1315764990 895341 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sound of one hand clapping < 1315765360 92987 :Zuu!~zuu@unaffiliated/zuu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1315765437 819192 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1315765627 742681 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :voice acting in a game? grow up < 1315765663 481222 :Zuu!~zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1315766041 757225 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-1.vodafone-net.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1315766213 481721 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Sort of a monadic human centipede. < 1315766481 27652 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are happy languages like c# and c++11 veering towards lambda :-? < 1315766498 900547 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Happy" languages? < 1315766507 92678 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :C# has had lambdas for years. < 1315766511 500860 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1315766516 121487 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does happy language mean < 1315766518 624948 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why < 1315766531 654858 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does happy language mean < 1315766546 308308 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can only assume that "happy" is a euphemism for "terrible" here < 1315766552 205318 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha. < 1315766554 307475 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote Phantom_Hoover: Sort of a monadic human centipede. < 1315766556 657143 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :649) Phantom_Hoover: Sort of a monadic human centipede. < 1315766607 572461 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh nevermind wiki answered < 1315766610 122139 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: because every language which doesn't have lambda feels arbitrarily restricted. < 1315766622 649728 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :big post here sadly < 1315766626 272925 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In C++03, particularly when used with C++ standard library algorithm functions such as std::sort and std::find, users will often wish to define predicate functions near the place where they make the algorithm function call. The language has only one mechanism for this: the ability to define a class inside of a function. This is often cumbersome and verbose, and it interrupts the flow of the code. Add < 1315766626 678985 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itionally, C++03's rules for classes defined in functions do not permit them to be used in templates, so using them is simply not possible." < 1315766737 933543 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The return type can be omitted only if the lambda function is of the form return expression (or if the lambda returns nothing)." -- when does it not. haha. < 1315766770 965506 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:36:35: Make aleph-0 dialects if you want to. < 1315766771 125274 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:36:41: no please don't < 1315766780 399309 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't be too hard. < 1315766820 961460 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe 5 is not an expression < 1315766831 411048 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: What does happy language mean < 1315766831 575129 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck-n: like brainfuck, except > means go right n steps instead of 1. q.e.d. < 1315766845 507163 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: nooooooooo < 1315766846 684930 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I can only assume that "happy" is a euphemism for "terrible" here < 1315766910 354123 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy basically means 'mostly' imperative < 1315766910 521045 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1315766919 40082 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :How's that related to happiness < 1315766925 264204 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those two languages are mostly OOP < 1315766930 110998 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not procedural < 1315766932 348623 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though they are imperative < 1315766955 632778 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1315766991 814263 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe if i actually understood any of this stuff i might change my mind < 1315767072 310252 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i understand only one thing < 1315767073 423998 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to make a computer, I will if I have the stuff to do so, I plan it include BASIC and Forth built-in. For commands OPEN LOAD SAVE COPY DISPLAY should support these URI schemes I think (I might expand or reduce the list later): h o s x tape ftp http gopher telnet sprunge < 1315767093 838196 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :is itidus20 the anthropomorphic personification of the dunning-kruger effect? watch the next episode of # e s o t e r i c < 1315767109 599433 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where h means hard drive, o means optical drive, s means saver directory, and x means external devices and Plan 9 protocol. < 1315767141 109184 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i considered making a cpu which implements haskell_without_monads machine < 1315767185 848973 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-3.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1315767194 746066 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's Haskell, but without one arbitrary typeclass that can be defined identically by any user? < 1315767205 701529 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't actually have any instuctions i think < 1315767228 962026 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: It doesn't need monads, as long as there is something representing system access < 1315767230 301415 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its like a blank dictionary entry < 1315767267 393814 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably in a CPU, you would not represent system access by monads anyways; you should implement the monads to access them as a Haskell program. < 1315767294 411295 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or even something else; monads are not required.) < 1315767340 422632 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cpu only exists if there is something for it to do < 1315767359 221181 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shrugs < 1315767450 801814 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315767495 738050 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you can now hate me infinitely much, yay < 1315767525 883769 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay? < 1315767539 695406 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY < 1315767560 951755 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, YOU ARE SCUM DIE DIE DIE < 1315767573 321372 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :waaaaaaaah < 1315767627 712156 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it best to understand any lambda expression as a machine? < 1315767652 587887 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1315767654 798344 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a bird < 1315767659 263723 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by machine i mean (input|process|output) < 1315767671 997766 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops no thats not what i mean < 1315767728 716990 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry the regular expression is too tough to figure out < 1315767754 901659 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't have to be a regular expression < 1315767788 551501 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by machine i mean, a combination of inputs, processes and outputs which have at least one input, process or output < 1315767806 872951 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :expression = /\ variable expression | ( expression expression ) | variable < 1315767833 990277 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg. "input" is a machine, "process" is a machine, "output" is a machine", "input process" is a machine, "input process output" is a machine < 1315767848 248015 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know how to say this as a regex < 1315767851 422309 :azaq231!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315767853 948282 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1315767874 979635 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just an arbitrary definition.. < 1315767881 126253 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the scope of what i am trying to say < 1315767916 684853 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: i don't think lambda expressions really distinguish process from output < 1315767943 321494 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that, if a lambda expression is not reciving input, or processing something, or outputting something, then it is waiting to input or process or output something < 1315767981 100298 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is my proposal of more-notation in Haskell good now? I can improve it if you tell me anything wrong with it < 1315767983 902340 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1315768020 609761 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok like for example.. can i construct a lambda expression which represents an adding machine? < 1315768045 517505 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: lambda expressions have no notion of "time". < 1315768049 522252 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then plug in 2 inputs and an output < 1315768123 586335 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it could also be a state machine, where the outputs represent the output value, how it expects next input, and next state. < 1315768196 137480 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a function might be of the type: output (input1, input2) < 1315768286 207084 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :z = f(x,y) < 1315768330 636522 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :z = f(x,y) = x + y < 1315768335 788423 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that trips me right out < 1315768414 71755 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would have to graph it in 3 dimensions < 1315768491 403943 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1315768497 200554 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1315768612 640390 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0,0,0) (0,1,1) (1,0,1) (1,1,2) < 1315768654 648034 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :f = uncurry (+) < 1315768659 650435 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: addition in lambda calculus using church numerals is (haskell syntax): \m -> \n -> \f -> \x -> m f (n f x) < 1315768669 170512 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :im confusing myself < 1315768676 341834 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is addition a curve in 3d space? < 1315768680 279524 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or \m n f x -> m f (n f x) even short < 1315768687 746480 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: a surface < 1315768716 283620 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it flat? < 1315768726 892961 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :z = x + y is a plane, so flat yes < 1315768757 445196 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*+er < 1315768787 894047 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what if you warp that plane in 4d? haha < 1315768804 526518 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a function existing in Haskell having that definition already? < 1315768816 757132 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: i find it mind-boggling that this boggles your mind < 1315768817 189677 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean the addition of church numerals) < 1315768840 213140 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: everything boggles your mind when you try to invent everything from scratch rather than learning < 1315768849 21654 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl \m n f x -> m f (n f x) < 1315768849 495595 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :liftM2 (.) < 1315768863 385525 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1315768872 496198 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well that's pretty short if not a named function < 1315768906 638980 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course you can name it if you want to, and make a library using that < 1315768947 472237 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly with a symbol name so that you can use it as an operator < 1315768957 254275 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevermind... i am only lost in confusion < 1315768959 236476 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: that 3d/4d stuff is afaict pretty basic calculus + analytic geometry < 1315768984 626971 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or linear algebra, take your pick, they both give perspective < 1315769029 290530 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:41:55: naive exploration is fun but there's a rich theory you should look into first, your ideas will become richer as wekk. < 1315769029 535587 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:41:58: *well < 1315769029 695506 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find this pertinent < 1315769049 110181 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :im only confusing myself :P < 1315769071 64872 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that is indeed how you learn things < 1315769085 287528 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think multiplication would then be (.) and power is (flip id) < 1315769091 159822 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well reinventing stuff yourself is fun, but you need enough skill at the underlying level < 1315769092 162265 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to someone who gave up whenever they went outside the boundaries of their existing knowledge. they would never learn anything, but I cannot for the _life_ of me think of an example of such a person. < 1315769127 261130 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder what Also is like as a thinker < 1315769135 466320 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes. < 1315769286 922023 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl \m f x -> m f (f x) < 1315769287 392305 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :((.) =<<) < 1315769295 717995 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl \m f x -> f (m f x) < 1315769296 193896 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ap (.) < 1315769306 572326 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :increment. < 1315769365 194606 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :decrement is left as an exercise for the reader *runs away* < 1315769404 943240 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ap :( < 1315769409 646046 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :((.) ) is not nicer though :P < 1315769431 989105 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i stopped worrying and started trying to deal with anxiety that abstract ideas gives me < 1315769447 84186 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?pl \m n f x -> m (n f) x < 1315769447 522665 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(.) < 1315769452 639621 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: whoaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh < 1315769458 28213 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just like underload :DDDDDDDDDddddddddddd < 1315769470 47156 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: zzo38 already mentioned that < 1315769484 832825 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i nearly mentioned underload as response, so yeah < 1315769497 201570 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?pl \m n -> n (\n f x -> m (n f) x) 1 < 1315769497 530820 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip flip 1 . flip id . const . (. join id) < 1315769500 471146 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO < 1315769502 659603 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :EXPONENTIATION SHOULD BE PRETTY < 1315769505 891174 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY WONLT; YOU PBE PRETTY < 1315769516 229931 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :now we just need to find how that relates to underload function calls :P < 1315769537 429931 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?pl \n f x -> n (\g h -> h (g f)) (\u -> x) (\u -> u) < 1315769537 869179 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip flip id . (flip .) . flip flip const . ((.) .) . (. ((flip id .) . flip id)) < 1315769541 871124 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?pl \n f x -> n (\g h -> h (g f)) (const x) id < 1315769542 305880 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip flip id . (flip .) . flip flip const . ((.) .) . (. ((flip id .) . flip id)) < 1315769544 81747 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1315769551 795743 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait that's just predecessor < 1315769554 225338 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :time for SUBTRACT < 1315769564 276313 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?p\m n -> (n (\n f x -> n (\g h -> h (g f)) (const x) id)) m < 1315769564 648370 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(line 1, column 3): < 1315769564 808541 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :unexpected ">" or "-" < 1315769564 808718 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :expecting variable, "(", operator or end of input < 1315769572 304117 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?p\m n -> (n (\n f x -> n (\g h -> h (g f)) (const x) id) m < 1315769572 747845 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(line 1, column 3): < 1315769572 908439 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :unexpected ">" or "-" < 1315769572 908629 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :expecting variable, "(", operator or end of input < 1315769576 753283 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?p\m n -> n (\n f x -> n (\g h -> h (g f)) (const x) id) m < 1315769577 195453 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(line 1, column 3): < 1315769577 355511 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :unexpected ">" or "-" < 1315769577 355677 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :expecting variable, "(", operator or end of input < 1315769580 781612 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?pl \m n -> n (\n f x -> n (\g h -> h (g f)) (const x) id) m < 1315769581 245226 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip ($ const (flip flip id . (. const) . ap id ((flip id .) . flip id))) < 1315769584 599706 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan:SO BEAUTIFUL < 1315769602 516937 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :?pl \n -> n (const const) (flip const) < 1315769602 861595 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip ($ const const) (const id) < 1315769604 585581 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1315769827 320023 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : WHY WONLT; YOU PBE PRETTY < 1315769842 880626 :kmc!~keegan@174-155-243-79.pools.spcsdns.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1315769922 235944 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl \m n f x -> n m f x < 1315769922 608639 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip id < 1315769926 859893 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :as zzo38 said < 1315769979 179132 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i suspect most of this is mentioned on madore's unlambda page < 1315769980 105457 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh is that exponentiation? < 1315769985 146737 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone fix the wikipedia article to have the nicer :( < 1315770042 107040 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t \n f x -> n (\g h -> h (g f)) (\u -> x) (\u -> u) < 1315770043 218667 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall t t1 t2 t3 t4 t5 t6. (((t -> t2) -> (t2 -> t3) -> t3) -> (t4 -> t1) -> (t5 -> t5) -> t6) -> t -> t1 -> t6 < 1315770085 13746 :saptarshi7sinha!~saptarshi@117.226.141.21 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315770087 238260 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, (flip id) is exponentiation; which is I already describe it. And (.) is multiplication < 1315770106 845414 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: is that decrement from wikipedia too? < 1315770110 172873 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes < 1315770135 853405 :saptarshi7sinha!~saptarshi@117.226.141.21 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone there/ < 1315770138 78312 :saptarshi7sinha!~saptarshi@117.226.141.21 PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1315770142 490652 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1315770150 70523 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's your favourite esolang? < 1315770155 766284 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck? intercal? underload? < 1315770161 5607 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :saptarshi7sinha? :) < 1315770169 259127 :saptarshi7sinha!~saptarshi@117.226.141.21 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck! < 1315770172 885523 :saptarshi7sinha!~saptarshi@117.226.141.21 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess! < 1315770184 743724 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that like brainfuck without the brains? < 1315770203 451778 :saptarshi7sinha!~saptarshi@117.226.141.21 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1315770205 117045 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hm, sounds like another derivative in the making < 1315770223 891072 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck is brainfuck but without the [] < 1315770236 358052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: there's already fuckfuck, which is just a swap of commands for swearwords < 1315770237 52991 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hey stop precisely reading my mind < 1315770239 83409 :saptarshi7sinha!~saptarshi@117.226.141.21 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeh..slangs do have a lot of derivatives! < 1315770240 150236 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: a bit like deadfish, then? < 1315770253 45292 :saptarshi7sinha!~saptarshi@117.226.141.21 PART :#esoteric < 1315770258 602086 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1315770270 299084 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :my new method for driving away the mislead works perfectly < 1315770289 345762 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and /probably/ wouldn't drive away anyone who was in the right place < 1315770291 636655 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: bf without [] still would require many memory cells < 1315770322 51083 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: let me guess, the indian-sounding name made you suspicious too? < 1315770332 656102 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1315770369 823567 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, not necessarily swearwords; swearwords just happen to fit the required template. The template only requires a four-letter word with the specific first and last letter; the second and third letter can be whatever you want it to be. < 1315770376 203113 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well maybe. but that's horrible :P < 1315770384 428834 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :except the 7 might indicate a chinese tone. but mandaring has only 4. cantonese has more, and also more final consonants < 1315770385 9268 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"anyone there/" was what made me decide to try it < 1315770392 371162 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*mandarin < 1315770398 141028 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/horrible/awful/ < 1315770422 145385 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :The upper bound of the required tape length in "fuck" seems to be much easier to determine than in brainfuck. < 1315770458 440081 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :constant-time, even :P < 1315770462 219544 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone here know if saptarshi7sinha means something in cantonese? < 1315770469 209882 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: Well, yes. Brainfuck without [] you can easily determine of course < 1315770487 176841 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Only if you have a constant time length operation. < 1315770500 514071 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yes for files. No for programs received from a TCP stream. < 1315770511 296848 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm is on twitter < 1315770541 632230 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: oh hm right < 1315770553 43378 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...twitter claims i don't have javascript enabled and refuses to load :( < 1315770600 305863 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11, that isn't true for files. Consider /dev/ttyS0 for example < 1315770614 801764 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That's a *device*. < 1315770619 418639 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"yes for regular files", I think is what twice11 meant < 1315770628 730926 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what IE are you on nowadays? :P < 1315770629 42926 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11, it is a file. You meant a "regular file or block device" I presume < 1315770636 529993 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you forgot block devices there < 1315770648 428079 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure there is an ioctl for them < 1315770649 275473 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I'd call the device 4,6 and say that /dev/ttyS0 is just a pointer to it < 1315770666 634396 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: 8, the highest which works on XP afaik < 1315770674 823601 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :/dev/ttyS0 is a name for the device. < 1315770683 485165 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you actually do call it "device 4,6" normally?... < 1315770685 955282 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :just as two hard links are two names for the same file. < 1315770704 623034 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11, point is, it is a file. which happen to be a name for a device. < 1315770720 560470 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, I don't call it /dev/ttyS0 normally either, I don't normally have a reason to name it at all < 1315770728 610625 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd more likely call it "the serial console" < 1315770732 901713 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1315770747 35827 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :define: file < 1315770762 164245 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, XP is pretty much dead. < 1315770766 759545 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure it is still used. < 1315770767 117186 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it isn't < 1315770768 414815 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :just dead < 1315770771 449858 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :XP has a massive userbase < 1315770792 632430 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including, at current, me < 1315770802 137446 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microsoft can't kill something by deciding they don't care about it any more < 1315770818 126252 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to web analytics data generated by W3Schools, from September 2003 to July 2011, Windows XP was the most widely used operating system for accessing the internet. As of August 2011, Windows XP market share is 38% after having peaked at 76.1% in January 2007.[3] < 1315770819 573719 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :AHAHAHA < 1315770823 920157 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well they are not supporting IE 9 on it. Nor any directx after version 9c iirc. < 1315770827 189638 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia citing W3Schools for OS census information < 1315770840 512561 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone remove that who isn't a faceless anon :P < 1315770870 105992 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yeah, wouldn't alexa be a better source for this... < 1315770891 773439 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1315770896 431116 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but W3Schools is the worst possible source < 1315770899 545118 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, though tell me, what is so bad about W3Schools? I mean, I never much looked at the site, I know it exists, that is about it. < 1315770901 325973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what overtook it? 7? < 1315770906 525813 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Vista? < 1315770933 960317 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: skewed data: most visitors are interested in web developement < 1315770939 59187 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am quite confident that the relation is 7 > XP > Vista < 1315770939 459966 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not only is it targeted at web developers and so will have a /completely/ inaccurate userbase, but W3Schools is a site which makes money selling worthless "certifications" and reeling people in with terrible tutorials that don't care at all about security in the slightest (SQL injections ahoy) < 1315770940 704903 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yeah < 1315770947 412673 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and deluding people into thinking that W3C supports it < 1315770954 171886 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(W3C have asked them to change their name several times) < 1315770956 959337 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah < 1315770998 903147 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so what is a good source for OS census info? < 1315771000 120814 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the theory is that only Microsoft have accurate statistics of Linux adoption < 1315771004 26457 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't know < 1315771013 767105 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :google I guess, not sure if they make anything public about that < 1315771021 996474 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the number of PCs running Mac OS X is basically insignificant, ditto the number of PCs running something other than Windows/Linux < 1315771036 346097 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they have the most accurate details on Windows adoption (including pirated Windows) < 1315771058 501021 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Google would be weighted in favour of lower stats for IE users, so lower stats for Windows users < 1315771064 946213 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :saptarshi sinha is definitely indian, anyway < 1315771065 495763 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm true < 1315771067 306634 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it's the default search engine in most major browsers, but not in IE < 1315771077 842943 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Facebook, maybe? < 1315771079 904680 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about average of several sites? Google, MSN and so on < 1315771098 893045 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, I don't use facebook for example. I know many people who dont < 1315771099 882273 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: or perhaps DoubleClick < 1315771100 712335 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't* < 1315771113 435049 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Facebook's a good example because its Like buttons are all over the place < 1315771115 163280 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone know how to uncommit the latest commit on git? < 1315771119 821849 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it has accuratish statistics for half the web < 1315771123 715654 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't pushed it anywhere < 1315771125 423966 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1315771126 130421 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'd like to just obliterate it < 1315771137 786447 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: also clear working tree? < 1315771140 983084 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you can obliterate via git rebase -i HEAD~2 < 1315771149 694935 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: indeed, I've copied out the relevant file < 1315771153 14022 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and deleting the line describing the commit from the resulting list < 1315771160 329145 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: thanks < 1315771165 489561 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :to reset everything to the state before the last commit: < 1315771166 642380 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :protocol.pl: needs merge < 1315771166 898550 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Working tree is dirty < 1315771167 594079 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh come on < 1315771171 20795 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :git reset --hard HEAD < 1315771172 523572 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :do I have to commit my merge and then obliterate that too? :P < 1315771173 361957 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :git reset --hard HEAD^ < 1315771174 901253 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1315771175 274272 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: right < 1315771179 902234 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm, does facebook provide OS census info though? < 1315771187 65343 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1315771188 708110 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :only a site which actually provides it would be interesting < 1315771191 209238 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't know; I'm talking about who has the info, rather than who provides it < 1315771230 4752 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :to just clear the commit and the "index" (what you have added), but keep your working dir, use "--mixed" instead of "--hard" < 1315771261 84246 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1315771263 531614 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I rather like git rebase -i because it lets you do all the edit-history options without having to worry about the individual syntax for each < 1315771268 450994 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, I never use "git reset --mixed", I just use "git commit --amend -a" to replace a bad commit by a good one. < 1315771285 124791 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, "git rebase -i" is quite cool. < 1315771292 322793 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: incidentally, I think modifying history is perfectly possible in sg < 1315771294 570137 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, git commit --amend? I'll have to remember that < 1315771305 498187 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :git commit --amend is useful for changing the commit message :P < 1315771309 387083 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so do I, but isn't it best done via history modification patches? < 1315771311 403507 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems lists a couple of different sources and the median of them. < 1315771319 67726 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: haha < 1315771326 762197 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's perverse < 1315771351 360739 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that way, it'd avoid the problems that modifying history normally causes to a VCS < 1315771362 355117 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in particular, you'd get conflicts between the old and new version otherwise, I think, in sg) < 1315771362 515751 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and also remove the point < 1315771377 1589 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :modifying history obviously doesn't work post-push < 1315771380 117068 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the point isn't to conceal the history, but to make it look neater, right? < 1315771388 957042 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if modifying history should work at all, it should be done post-push < 1315771393 955842 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it should work post-push too < 1315771408 357330 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if someone pulls from you just after you accidentally commit half a patch? < 1315771413 47479 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :personally, I think it should simply be another layer < 1315771434 352876 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so more windows xp than windows 7... heh < 1315771475 771379 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, though on some of those sources it goes the other way around; and most of them are themselves from multiple sites. < 1315771509 783559 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1315771558 589686 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is vista behind both or beating both? < 1315771586 448128 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Behind both in all the lines of the table, unless I missaw. < 1315771607 421623 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(~11% vs. 30+% in the median numbers.) < 1315771614 461649 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1315771633 685290 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would you want to use Windows 7 beta, when there is Windows 7 final? < 1315771638 25262 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if the final end of XP support will actually drive down Windows adoption < 1315771658 782993 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is no, because it'll correspond to a time where all the viable alternatives to Windows have screwed up their UIs < 1315771678 124376 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless Apple get their act together again; I doubt Gnome will in time, perhaps KDE will) < 1315771679 369334 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Smartphone_share_current.png <-- now that is interesting. I was under the impression that apple had a larger share than android < 1315771690 388578 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, Android is the Windows of smartphones < 1315771696 521022 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: xfce? < 1315771699 871476 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lowest-common-denominator, and often programmed quite badly < 1315771707 461617 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so android is bad? < 1315771717 891057 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: While Apple is the Apple of smartphones. < 1315771718 256485 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: Linux is pretty small market-share-wise as it is, and xfce is a pretty small fraction of /that/ < 1315771725 296883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'd say xfce use is statistically insignificant < 1315771728 241811 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes, I'll agree with that < 1315771730 706154 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'm wary of it < 1315771743 92704 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh? < 1315771745 238544 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't hear "Linux-based" and immediately think "good" like Slashdot or Groklaw seem to < 1315771756 891006 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Android is basically a race to the bottom < 1315771762 618131 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1315771770 930514 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, surely there are some good android products? < 1315771774 51109 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of applications available, most of which are really bad < 1315771776 27711 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of which are good < 1315771778 165871 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like Windows < 1315771798 183241 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and heavily varying in how locked-down it is, which isn't identical to Windows but a similar situation when you consider corporate installs < 1315771819 597963 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of bad and some good apps: Isn't that typical for any high-market-share system with open application development? < 1315771829 971151 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and linux have a massive dominance for servers it seems. < 1315771831 431267 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: most iPhone apps are terrible too, mind you < 1315771833 924694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: I think so < 1315771853 973037 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, twice11 isn't tswett < 1315771857 81009 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just saying that Android is the standard high-market-share system with open application development, and so corresponds quite strongly to Windows < 1315771876 904837 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I think the proportion of good iPhone apps that are great is higher than the proportion of good Android apps that are great < 1315771878 455695 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1315771883 390328 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but the OS itself? < 1315771887 680008 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas Linux corresponds to Moblin or something < 1315771901 57231 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the OS itself, in Android, is mostly a reimplemented language very close to Java < 1315771912 453119 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :But also for Linux, there are a lot of bad application in the interwebs and some good ones... < 1315771914 477193 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so close that Oracle sued them over it < 1315771942 802993 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't Java? I know it's not the standard Java VM, but < 1315771944 978300 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice11: bad Linux programs rarely reach the depths of badness that bad Windows programs reach < 1315771953 409777 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad Linux programs tend to merely not work < 1315771960 712250 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad Windows programs can do all sorts of absurd things < 1315771981 63806 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably because the really bad programmers typically haven't heard of Linux and couldn't get Visual Studio running on it < 1315771987 938749 :twice11!~twice11@lenny32.physik.fu-berlin.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't get me started on trying to work with LibreOffice (which OTOH is x-platfrom, not linux only) < 1315771993 389068 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so linux have a huge dominance on publicly accessible servers, and a near total dominance on HPC. hm < 1315772009 766345 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it's Java as in the language Java (syntax/semantics), but the standard libraries are reimplemented and not the same as standard Java < 1315772017 324464 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and heh, mainframes are mostly IBM system z < 1315772023 912734 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(who the hell still uses mainframes?) < 1315772031 974511 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION now wants an IBM System Z emulator < 1315772041 610758 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a monad. < 1315772043 180171 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION feels nostalgia for mainframes < 1315772043 346289 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :companies doing what mainframes are good at: very very large quantities of easy work < 1315772043 673488 :HackEgo!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :650) When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a monad. < 1315772045 482482 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^not true < 1315772065 846256 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a mainframe is what you want if you have ten billion additions that need doing < 1315772099 859285 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1315772109 894547 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wouldn't a cluster of cheap PCs work better? < 1315772137 172538 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there is something mathematically correct in category theory and is also computable, is it supposed to be representable in Haskell? < 1315772247 536060 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the standard mainframe applications are things like processing payrolls for an entire company or taxes for an entire country < 1315772339 398273 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :awk 'gsub(/./,"&\n")' | awk '/>/&&++p>r{r++}/userspace transition is the cause < 1315772583 171213 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what about pipes? < 1315772590 682400 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: probably those too < 1315772591 859624 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :all IO, really < 1315772601 706568 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :vmsplice()? < 1315772604 898120 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1315772614 871299 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: aha, I see, the problem's that reading from a network socket requires too many context switches < 1315772617 225513 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that is kind of cheating < 1315772626 424099 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway, Synthesis takes the route of heavily optimising user<->kernelspace communication/switches < 1315772630 823405 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Linux does have a syscall to connect two pipes, I've forgotten what it's called (it may well be vmsplice) < 1315772632 891216 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's much simpler just to run everything in kernelspace < 1315772634 920467 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I guess Inferno wouldn't have this problem? < 1315772636 15657 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(cough @ cough) < 1315772650 683834 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how Inferno works, but it presumably inherits the host OS' underlying IO < 1315772665 702281 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well it can run natively iirc < 1315772668 173541 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just hosted < 1315772678 276881 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: anyway, if you eliminate the distinction, then all the fancy hacks Linux has for fast IO are completely unnecessary < 1315772695 242266 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need syscalls that do a lot, because you can just compose the operations in the obvious way < 1315772696 635175 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so lisp machine and DOS do it right? < 1315772705 390671 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually don't get why a call to kernelspace needs a context switch < 1315772709 378073 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a switch between processes does < 1315772713 825312 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know much about Lisp machine's security... DOS is way too different to a modern system to compare < 1315772721 709254 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hardware ring bullshit, I believe < 1315772724 934380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but to the kernel and back, I don't see why it would < 1315772737 633609 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoever invented rings: I hope you feel bad < 1315772747 415988 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, multics < 1315772748 713702 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh, I was assuming that most of the overhead of a context switch was in doing things like copying registers < 1315772751 239677 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is where rings come from < 1315772754 800904 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: oh, really? < 1315772757 102358 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :scratch that, don't feel bad < 1315772759 99260 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Multics < 1315772766 426000 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: wait, Multics invented /hardware/ rings? < 1315772771 94641 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, pretty sure that is where rings first showed up. At least Multics had 7 rings < 1315772771 465683 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they used existing computers, dude < 1315772777 309973 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about hardware ring < 1315772777 731439 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1315772780 557427 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1315772810 150484 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, not sure then, but multics made heavy use of them I know. Would need checking for where they were invented. < 1315772838 899695 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote the text of section 5.4 of proposal of more-notation. At least, some texts. Probably many sections still incomplete < 1315772888 884275 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in fact, even select/epoll are obsolete < 1315772907 648255 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in favour of what? < 1315772916 633860 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(don't say pselect/ppoll) < 1315772927 468432 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in a ring-0 system, given cheap threads, you can just spawn off a bunch and blocking-read -- note that "coroutines" count as cheap threads here < 1315772951 522003 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :blocking-read just translates to "call/cc (\k -> install k as handler for 'when data comes in'); yield" < 1315772962 150646 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1315772976 802716 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :blocking-read just translates to "r = call/cc (\k -> install (k 'hi) as handler for 'when data comes in'; 'bye); if r == 'bye {yield}" < 1315772982 734311 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get the idea < 1315772992 946099 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can literally just hook into the kernel's IO multiplexing < 1315772994 110899 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1315772998 723887 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wait, wtf is "ppoll"? < 1315773011 36462 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't get how Red Hot Chilli Peppers rhyme "wall" and "bra" < 1315773015 52653 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the /concept/ of select, etc., is a useful one for programming, it just doesn't have to be a primitive < 1315773028 844952 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: a syscall that does much the same as pselect but with a different interface < 1315773033 181061 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: (note that node.js has become popular by deluding people into thinking that if you do this, but use a /manual/ CPS transform rather than call/cc, and _keep_ all the existing kernel overhead, somehow your servers will magically be fast) < 1315773038 355376 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ... why < 1315773045 863079 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure select is that useful; threads are much nicer < 1315773048 460872 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because select is limited in how many FDs it can handle < 1315773050 807497 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(threads aren't nice, but they're nicer than select) < 1315773057 587804 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, okay why select at all then < 1315773061 234655 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :or pselect < 1315773065 857308 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: select is perfect for writing an event loop < 1315773089 784906 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing that with threads can be messy < 1315773093 279520 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yep, but event loops are performance hacks < 1315773119 952186 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1315773122 869320 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the right level of abstraction is: callbacks, and then a continuation-based blocking interface on top of that < 1315773123 29704 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-227-36.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, you basically can't even think about DOS in modern terms. It's not so much an OS as it is a lightweight library and a program loader. < 1315773133 702737 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, true < 1315773142 383296 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well, the two are obviously equivalent < 1315773142 615725 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the beauty of continuations rather than just e.g. for (;;); until the callback trips a variable saying "it's done", < 1315773145 524552 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-227-36.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though, given that, you can easily do optimal IO if you feel like it) < 1315773150 451130 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the thread can die in-between < 1315773154 198187 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's 0-cost to block < 1315773161 21319 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as efficient as possible < 1315773307 508003 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least windows 7 seems to have no traces of 16 bit support left, though that could be just the 64-bit edition (since 16-bit obviously won't work there) < 1315773325 762973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh, what's up with Windows' famous backward compatibility? < 1315773335 457208 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in conclusion, all the work gone into efficient IO has been obsolete from the start, and writing efficient network and file (imagine processing gigabytes of data) programs is now needlessly awkward and FUD abounds < 1315773339 213249 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how will I run my old 16-bit applications now? < 1315773347 577751 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well 16- bit won't work in long mode. Blame AMD for that. < 1315773348 395594 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's ridiculous! < 1315773359 189132 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is specified in the ISA. < 1315773369 77135 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: large IO buffers are another thing that is completely useless, btw < 1315773371 125886 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/- /-/ < 1315773382 550100 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget what buffer size Synthesis was using to completely outperform everything else, but it was something like sixteen bytes < 1315773385 630934 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, not really, what about DMA? < 1315773393 333641 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to the kilobytes we use nowadays because of the kernelspace overhead < 1315773410 497996 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well, that's a lower-level kind of buffering < 1315773411 722251 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, writing an entire sector to disk might be a better idea < 1315773420 289107 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially for SSD < 1315773428 798247 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, still it needs to be done < 1315773432 65572 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, that's abstracted in @ though < 1315773436 669679 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: mmap() doesn't seem to run into the problems you talk about, unless the page faults cause timeconsuming context switches < 1315773460 850549 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I have a feeling they might; but yes, mmap is nice, but it only works on files; in @, of course, all disk access works like mmap < 1315773466 420337 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is basically as efficient as possible < 1315773474 433830 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, mmap is limited in that it won't work on char devices < 1315773486 720627 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it performs implicit buffering on the page level < 1315773498 907447 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how the CPU talks to the soundcard these days? < 1315773507 534194 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, DMA probably < 1315773513 161271 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's going to be either in/out or DMA at the lowest level < 1315773524 403343 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be fun if @ had a demo doing a bunch of fancy animation + real-time "play audio from file applying expensive effects" thing with a tiny buffer. < 1315773546 752485 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Probably buffered underneath because of DMA, but eh, that's not the kind of buffers we see in stdio these days.) < 1315773552 154308 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or in the kernel.) < 1315773557 73953 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, likely DMA considering how much data must be passed for, for example, 5.1 48 kHz sound < 1315773563 165776 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :in/out just wouldn't cut it < 1315773590 890516 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what about things like buffering done by curses, which is for the purpose of ignoring screen writes that overwrite each other? < 1315773606 795865 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a curses-alike would be useful if, say, streaming textish data across a network < 1315773609 353078 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway, video: DMA too. < 1315773621 79283 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well kind of < 1315773645 356179 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: streaming textish data across a network? < 1315773651 409800 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just send a description of the widgets? < 1315773655 678539 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean screen-oriented textish < 1315773665 33039 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "curses-alike is useful if you have a VT"? < 1315773666 222312 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no shit < 1315773674 176834 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what about when logging into remote systems < 1315773681 15551 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: with what method? < 1315773684 424189 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :say I want to play NetHack on @ < 1315773686 406325 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ssh for example < 1315773706 536533 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway it is more efficient to send larger TCP packages than small ones. Best is matching MTU of course < 1315773719 68813 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if you want to play NetHack with the original UI, of course you need a VT < 1315773726 931211 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so there buffering is good when transferring bulk data < 1315773731 670863 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: otherwise, look at nethack-el < 1315773738 927551 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just send the same kind of data structures across the network < 1315773747 637413 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: I don't know exactly how nethack-el sends things) < 1315773751 284200 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I'm saying that that updating sort of data sensibly requires buffering < 1315773753 964590 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: in lisp, obviously < 1315773759 66498 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well, as a sequence of sexps < 1315773759 228505 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-93-244.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1315773759 657745 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no? < 1315773761 62913 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sends sexps < 1315773765 38786 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know how it sends the _map_ < 1315773769 22639 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is what's important < 1315773776 461311 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't send the map < 1315773780 54025 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sends map update instructions < 1315773780 379728 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Didn't 7 have some sort of a VM-based (built on Virtual PC) backwards schmombatility "XP mode" thingie? < 1315773782 517432 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also as sexps < 1315773785 728444 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: anyway, I don't see why it requires buffering at all; nethack screens don't change much each frame < 1315773789 75838 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can just send a diff < 1315773795 196128 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, think so. < 1315773795 360581 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it needs buffering to calculate the diff < 1315773799 188254 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka map update structures < 1315773799 679656 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I was trying to get at all along < 1315773800 812944 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what? < 1315773820 237843 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: because you're often overwriting a square with itself in NetHack < 1315773823 540690 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that shouldn't show up in the diff < 1315773827 549363 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, not around on my windows 7 system I have here. Which is windows 7 pro from MSDNAA. Might need to take it from add/remove programs or such < 1315773831 872139 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1315773869 722906 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what about network buffering as I mentioned above? < 1315773886 235947 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you want to buffer up to MTU if the data isn't time critical. < 1315773915 506599 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't think you've been listening the first, second, or tenth times I clarified I was only talking about one kind of buffering < 1315773928 461302 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I stopped trying to clarify and started ignoring your examples of buffering instead < 1315773929 867652 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well this one is relevant to the application layer < 1315773939 97089 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :network buffering is an implementation detail of the network driver < 1315773947 460203 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: because you're often overwriting a square with itself in NetHack ;; how is this relevant to buffering? < 1315773956 28778 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, I think it's a separate download. I'm not sure my Ultimate Seven here has it installed either. < 1315773961 499965 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes, but only in the sense that the application layer says "I want to optimise for throughput" or "I want to optimise for latency" < 1315773975 958896 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: because you need to remember what was there before < 1315773980 403346 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed, and that might change over a session too, for different parts of the data. < 1315773983 362423 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to know whether to send the diff or not < 1315773984 736917 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's not buffering... < 1315773991 74090 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's caching < 1315774000 696720 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, OK, perhaps you have different definitions to me < 1315774001 515682 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that has nothing to do with stdio buffering or anything < 1315774008 971920 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say it's the opposite of caching < 1315774012 547147 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be buffering in the technical sense, but it's not the kind of IO buffering I'm talking about at all < 1315774016 548303 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: Yes, I think it's a separate download. I'm not sure my Ultimate Seven here has it installed either. < 1315774018 858739 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it's Ultimate-only < 1315774019 311198 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you have ultimate? heh < 1315774020 133669 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1315774023 591453 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does Haskell not allow infixr 10? < 1315774030 560174 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: because that's function application < 1315774031 932110 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: "Windows XP Mode is available free of charge to users of Windows 7 Professional, Enterprise, and Ultimate.[30]" < 1315774036 339221 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Oh, hunh. < 1315774042 431994 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, that's why. < 1315774069 177000 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's a "for the university staff" license, I think it cost 7.50 EUR or so, and the price was identical for Professional and Ultimate, so I went with the more grandiose name. < 1315774078 823948 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1315774099 398708 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I picked the "N" variant. < 1315774101 775140 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ultimate isn't available here. Only pro, no other version. < 1315774106 264371 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, N? < 1315774122 131552 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the "no media player" thingie they were obligamated to make for some reason or another. < 1315774127 350296 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1315774135 736730 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then turned out something quite essential needed the "media functionality package", so I had to install it after all. < 1315774146 179269 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway, I went for ultimate with visual studio. Not that I use visual studio much. But hey why not < 1315774155 686906 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Turns out it wasn't just the media player application, it was other components too.) < 1315774207 792290 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The features in the N and KN Editions are the same as their equivalent full versions, but do not include Windows Media Player or other Windows Media-related technologies, such as Windows Media Center and Windows DVD Maker.[12]" < 1315774216 807324 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only reason to use visual studio would be windows C# development. For everything else there are better solutions. < 1315774217 645836 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The description made it sound like it'd just lack a bit of bloat. < 1315774227 965047 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've already forgotten what it exactly was that it was lacking. < 1315774239 874861 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay, .NET in general for the supported languages, but I would never touch VB.NET < 1315774252 65963 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was just about to ask about F# < 1315774269 798077 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the courses I'm teaching this year is in common-subset-of-OCaml-and-F# < 1315774270 785745 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, I have never used F# nor do I have any opinion on it. < 1315774276 633464 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, polyglot levels of common subset < 1315774279 337225 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how large it i < 1315774281 522877 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is < 1315774286 234116 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh... < 1315774291 136026 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably unusably small < 1315774300 633178 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so why that subset then... < 1315774302 189388 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :0? I mean, OCaml has ;; to end things and iirc, F# doesn't? < 1315774326 69731 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't actually need any ;;s in a program, it's a separator < 1315774339 351544 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why, is this some sort of eso-course? < 1315774342 646503 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :programs are typically definition ;; main < 1315774347 843195 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no, it's a basic CS concepts course < 1315774361 859821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the lecturer thinks it doesn't need anything beyond function calls and pattern matching < 1315774364 351791 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, still, a stupid subset < 1315774387 320404 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I'd prefer elliott's opinion here before concluding it's definitely stupid < 1315774402 199768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't actually know F#, and apparently it's deliberately similar to OCaml, so the subset might be larger than I think < 1315774448 25537 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how viable would an INTERCAL/C polyglot be? < 1315774456 94633 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ? < 1315774478 305217 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: opinions on whether "common subset of OCaml and F# that has the same syntax" is a completely useless language or not < 1315774494 831177 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you asked me that before < 1315774503 848387 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right; but I can't remember the answer < 1315774512 680545 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : one of the courses I'm teaching this year is in common-subset-of-OCaml-and-F# < 1315774514 501914 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :augh < 1315774519 619647 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well I was asking for context < 1315774529 742045 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was about your weird ultra-portability thing < 1315774533 446669 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: hmm; I think the only way to avoid a syntax error in one or other of the langauges would be to start with DONOT; < 1315774535 671339 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but teaching it to innocent children???? < 1315774542 900125 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's not up to me what I teach < 1315774556 614057 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "GNU C99 and assembler and one lecture on C++" was not a good idea either < 1315774590 720820 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1315774598 347501 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, does anyone know if you can merge just /one/ commit into another branch on git? < 1315774608 598247 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I accidentally committed something to a quite-diverged development branch rather than master < 1315774613 776281 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'd like to avoid just applying the diff again, that's gross < 1315774616 948642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that operation isn't meaningful in git < 1315774627 910897 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, but I thought there might be some porcelain for it < 1315774629 987774 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do git cherrypick, but that just automates applying the diff again < 1315774634 203905 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1315774658 345412 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@katia:~/Code/mcmap$ git diff 8f6f820~ 8f6f820 | git apply < 1315774660 618050 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should do it, right? < 1315774664 143795 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, this was my example of the simplest thing you couldn't do in git < 1315774668 374293 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1315774668 888346 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what git apply does < 1315774676 357126 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NAME < 1315774676 601234 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : git-apply - Apply a patch to files and/or to the index < 1315774679 781094 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :applies a git-diff :P < 1315774686 198961 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The cherry-pick interface isn't so bad either. < 1315774687 385497 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems about right < 1315774687 947724 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :error: patch failed: world.c:941 < 1315774688 175458 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :error: world.c: patch does not apply < 1315774688 675365 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah good < 1315774691 287272 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : I thought it was about your weird ultra-portability thing <-- hm, what thing? < 1315774697 390516 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it, um, what < 1315774699 834846 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :secret project? < 1315774707 740327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :secret project is not ultra-portable < 1315774709 744274 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1315774714 782841 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's already on that branch < 1315774715 415844 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you might have guessed from my questions about Linux kernel internals < 1315774716 860360 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did that happen? < 1315774717 935232 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hmm < 1315774718 562554 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so different project then < 1315774724 110558 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind, I know what happened < 1315774733 950484 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says I pushed that to the wrong branch because I was pushing the merge of it < 1315774736 633798 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as some other stuff < 1315774740 797360 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got it right after all :) < 1315774993 457848 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1315775116 633861 :kmc!~keegan@174-155-243-79.pools.spcsdns.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1315775155 909457 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so what is that ultra-portability thing < 1315775169 115434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1315775176 443697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask elliott, it's him who claimed it existed < 1315775185 497693 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1315775188 693404 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what is it? < 1315775194 862619 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: mu < 1315775464 731527 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what was/is that ultra portable thing you mentioned < 1315775509 764164 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you misread < 1315775584 777575 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1315776164 579046 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have the "which left right" like has been described before, but False is on the left. You can generalize (&&) and (||) for the Choose class and if it is swappable you can also generalize not. < 1315776203 705215 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(||) = flip $ flip which $ right < 1315776208 10358 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315776238 610533 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(&&) = flip $ which left < 1315776242 770530 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not = which right left < 1315776383 991378 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1315776407 148183 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should use (f . g $ x) rather than (f $ g $ x) < 1315776429 239749 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1315776445 288086 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(indeed many Haskellers would like to see $ become infixl) < 1315776454 712092 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1315776458 522086 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so that you can say (f $ really long argument $ really long argument) to apply a function with two arguments) < 1315776460 479622 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand you < 1315776473 798213 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I like $'s current associativity < 1315776481 864019 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps because of the way I think about Haskell < 1315776485 674130 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it basically becomes a pipeline < 1315776490 576033 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, you use . for that < 1315776493 575750 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can understand why you want $ to be infixl < 1315776503 686121 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t ($) < 1315776504 256850 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b. (a -> b) -> a -> b < 1315776505 505893 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (.) < 1315776505 753020 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :unix | is (.) not ($) < 1315776506 64444 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b < 1315776512 224330 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, it's >>=, but it's definitely not ($)) < 1315776517 70865 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there really a big difference? < 1315776546 465792 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the UNIX | is (>=>), not ($) or (.) or (>>=) < 1315776576 421171 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The argument to the pipeline is then the stdin handle. < 1315776632 27181 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Result is stdout handle. < 1315776652 345048 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something like that. < 1315776672 246288 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, | is like >>= in a way: http://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/monadic-shell.html < 1315776770 781712 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read that and I disagree, because >>= requires a monad value and a function to monad value, while >=> is both the same like the command on both side of | is both the same. < 1315776811 145751 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1315776961 764640 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just measured my english speed wpm and got 206 < 1315776969 539506 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about you guys= < 1315776970 851695 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1315776980 72220 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1315776982 869992 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :speech, not speed < 1315777062 20011 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol i was thinking you meant typing < 1315777071 758001 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just felt inferior, wasn't even the slightest bit sceptical < 1315777082 861513 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1315777197 937888 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not a very fast typist < 1315777212 334099 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm way slower than you for instance < 1315777219 519384 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :mainly i'm just a very slow thinker though < 1315777281 135827 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :200 wpm is not *that* slow for speech < 1315777347 335222 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should prolly measure in finnish though, english is hard to speak fast since it flows so nicely < 1315777355 198783 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that means it also blurs nicely < 1315777530 918241 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :252, but there were some weird names in the text i read < 1315777541 945369 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia JOIN :#esoteric < 1315777552 376044 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's less than a half of the world record :DD < 1315777563 649536 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :interestingly it seems speaju < 1315777574 75635 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :king is something women are better at than men < 1315777587 833524 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION keeps pressing the return button that's perfectly located < 1315778029 645410 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :150 with a longer sample :( < 1315778038 330264 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but finnish words are really long! < 1315778100 100645 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was still 30 letters a second (including spaces :D) < 1315778174 27836 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzbnwASIFKU she's my idol < 1315778204 204481 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i had books that weren't full of formulas i don't know how to read < 1315778319 895113 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : king is something women are better at than men < 1315778320 654520 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :king? < 1315778336 66937 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to read the next sentence < 1315778355 406787 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :return button? aka enter < 1315778366 16264 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :speajuking < 1315778389 70397 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1315778410 969671 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you measure yet < 1315778530 406116 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION → sleep < 1315778556 299068 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1315778575 895758 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Quit: Bye < 1315778593 936047 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315778851 675148 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-194-44.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1315778866 83812 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-227-36.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1315779149 14779 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1315779207 743306 :jix_!jix@tomakin.h-ix.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1315779229 230401 :jix!jix@tomakin.h-ix.net QUIT :Read error: No route to host < 1315779238 978230 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the addition plane i was asking about, if x is 5 and y is 4 then z will be 9 < 1315779270 919107 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if x is 4 and y is 5 then z wll be 9 < 1315779306 243479 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the plain generated by (1, 0, 1) and (0, 1, 1), common example in linear algebra < 1315779360 765162 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about it? < 1315779388 268997 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1315779389 369225 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :plane < 1315779404 34258 :Milo_!~milo@217.27.56.72 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315779407 516985 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am curious what it looks like < 1315779454 801156 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a slanted version of the xy plane < 1315779469 947244 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a 45 degree slant? < 1315779482 356817 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think so < 1315779487 904758 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heheh ok ok < 1315779494 125817 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemme see < 1315779566 84542 :Milo_!~milo@217.27.56.72 PART :#esoteric < 1315779645 192967 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the vector (1, 1) is lifted the most and it is lifted by 54 degrees < 1315779691 800262 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok :P < 1315779697 651689 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fascinating < 1315779702 521921 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds so arbitrary < 1315779733 133705 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you just look at the x axis, you see 45, and same with y axis < 1315779766 152797 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you go along both, you get something similar to the "arbitrary" fact that the length of (1, 1) is sqrt 2 < 1315779850 218305 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh < 1315779853 770566 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see now < 1315779881 580898 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think :P .. enough to let it go < 1315779942 955658 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1315779951 103821 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you view it by rotating x plane 45 degrees towards y plane, it will be 54 degrees < 1315779974 159519 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no that doesnt make sense.. ah i should just drop it < 1315779994 44512 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :letting it go... ,,, < 1315780055 824893 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly QUIT :Quit: FireFly < 1315780075 119317 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :another way to think about it is you take the unit circle and lift it with the addition plane. now the height at which points of the circle end up roughly tell you the change in angle, points of the x axis turn 45 degrees, but the point (1, 1)/sqrt2 is lifted more < 1315780086 135337 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=z+%3D+x+%2B+y < 1315780107 856649 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this site tries its best < 1315780127 89538 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :alpha is good for this sorta stuff < 1315780155 733348 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i might not have asked if i had this much faith in alpha < 1315780277 228733 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so binary mathematical operations can be defined as planes < 1315780291 362316 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or in the case of multiplication a hyperplane < 1315780304 873575 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :continuous ones produce 2d manifolds yes < 1315780305 112738 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops no i mean < 1315780309 711861 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :not planes though < 1315780311 794177 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hyperbolid paraboloid < 1315780318 701490 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bolic < 1315780322 347204 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :manifold means it doesn't have to grow linearly < 1315780329 937787 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can have hills too < 1315780419 135414 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so division operation is funny looking.. would it be better in 4d? < 1315780567 193311 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok sorry for 20 questions < 1315780650 745087 :ive!~nn@189.179.241.111 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1315780656 790748 :ive!~nn@189.179.241.111 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315780821 760902 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1315780952 662152 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE8A3D7.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1315780964 819857 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you do it in 4d? < 1315781043 433203 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the division operator is not continuous at y = 0 < 1315781055 947067 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you get a cut there < 1315781128 392268 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are church numerals the only function of type forall a. (a -> a) -> a -> a ? < 1315781145 879229 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1315781148 745411 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :modulo _|_s < 1315781151 591647 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i think) < 1315781183 134501 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think so too, all you can do is apply the function to the a instance n times < 1315781188 312369 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear Facebook: I consider myself to be more secure without a "security question", so don't conisider me to be at a medium level of security < 1315781202 676465 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1315781204 320400 :CakeProphet!~adam@h2.52.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1315781204 481612 :CakeProphet!~adam@h2.52.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host < 1315781204 481751 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1315781216 4340 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well depends on the definition of security i guess < 1315781238 216101 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear Sgeo: We give so many shits about what you think, and in our daily #esoteric logread, saw this, and immediately corrected the problem. Keep up the good work! Love, Facebook. < 1315781241 557756 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :by a definition like that, i suppose a complicated password is very very insecure < 1315781267 568403 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, so fill in some random junk? Or the password itself? < 1315781269 378846 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :choose something easy to remember like poop instead < 1315781288 485913 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the response is probably stored with less security than the password < 1315781297 686129 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh true < 1315781300 845043 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, fortunately, I don't have to fill it in, unless I want Facebook to show me as more secure < 1315781308 129928 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1315781310 189113 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you _sleep_ without that being shown? < 1315781331 496321 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on who he sleeps with I would guess. < 1315781344 14312 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1315781349 963448 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, probably not with the facebook security manager. < 1315781357 948267 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or whatever) < 1315781445 928965 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1315781451 746510 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net < 1315781548 310250 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal quits on nights now? < 1315781622 344761 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :weiiiiiiird < 1315781635 605709 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, right? < 1315781656 185701 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do know right. < 1315781968 760351 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know rong. < 1315781975 194084 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[asterisk]wrong < 1315781983 366287 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi im elliott and i have no number keys < 1315781988 605220 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1315782017 657766 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1315782027 962759 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: why on earth does git only push the current branch by default? < 1315782029 664452 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's infuriating < 1315782094 303406 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also, admin question: can I move [[User:Javamannen]] to [[User talk:Javamannen]] on the wiki? it's ridiculous < 1315782105 254800 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there actually a discussion there? < 1315782117 511428 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :_three_ < 1315782123 18404 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :with _replies_ < 1315782125 291694 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, four < 1315782126 502279 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1315782131 256617 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of them started by himself and the only reply being himself < 1315782136 604115 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, that last section should be part of his user page < 1315782139 452829 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the rest is talk content < 1315782160 731524 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1315782161 962575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: restore the userpage section as it should be, copy/paste move the rest to talk (with a pointer to the history if you really care) < 1315782165 226760 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and put a comment explaining < 1315782178 358091 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably best to move to talk, then copy-paste-move the section from talk to main < 1315782180 226716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as it'll you-have-new-messages him, so there should at least actually /be/ a new message) < 1315782182 63052 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :as talk has had more activity < 1315782191 189383 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps, but that'll leave confusing redirects in the history < 1315782206 364706 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just a merge commit :D < 1315782212 531266 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, can't you move a page without redirecting? < 1315782214 386969 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least on wikipedia < 1315782246 792873 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can, you can't < 1315782248 601570 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to be an admin < 1315782258 393092 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1315782260 877300 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wanna do it, then? :P < 1315782264 502287 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or make me admin ;D < 1315782265 413207 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, I'm not an admin there either, technically, but it's unlikely that I wouldn't get admin rights by just asking for them) < 1315782273 958982 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't on Esolang, the software's too old < 1315782278 269264 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1315782282 569423 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor can I make you an admin either, I don't have the perms < 1315782288 861562 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :MY PLANS KEEP FAILING < 1315782936 258164 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Is it a character flaw if I try and eliminate any linear search of a list? < 1315782968 188852 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realised that this structure means I'll have to traverse UP TO LIKE SIX ELEMENTS sometimes, so I'm replacing it with a hash table < 1315782970 699111 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[asterisk]table. < 1315782991 283108 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: heh < 1315783006 259224 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been known to do lsearches deliberately and not lose sleep about it < 1315783044 116451 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The comparison would even be a pointer equality, so it's not even six string comparisons. :( < 1315783065 908539 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's a C array, so it's literally just for (unsigned i = 0; i < nfields; i++) if (array[i] == blah) return i; < 1315783078 506410 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where nfields is like seven at most < 1315783142 691790 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1315783159 891235 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I think it's time to admit that I Have A Problem. < 1315783174 129073 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linearsearchophobes Anonymous. < 1315783293 807514 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what, fuck it, I'm doing the linear search. < 1315783312 266481 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't do that by yourself < 1315783356 14903 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need whatshisname matrix. < 1315783386 997826 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :james < 1315783395 59742 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1315783404 87572 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :jack might be better actually < 1315783412 897584 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe he's jack james matric < 1315783415 345597 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*x < 1315783472 8196 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh noes, too late for coding < 1315783505 681961 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's never too late for coding < 1315783527 490183 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- jack james matrix < 1315783571 27282 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey that's actually a great idea < 1315783575 432377 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: say something really smart < 1315783638 845129 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: please, this is the important < 1315783662 116997 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yes < 1315783683 69813 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you should do some coding, just to be really out of character < 1315783713 566512 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :please say a general philosophical wisdomness < 1315783716 810611 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1315783718 899124 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :an friend is a house < 1315783719 590285 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i can try this < 1315783720 999195 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but when a house disappears < 1315783723 362193 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the friend a friend? < 1315783733 425078 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- oklopol ominovorol, when he was like 5 < 1315783739 778264 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1315783746 227807 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :<elliott> it's never too late for coding < 1315783746 437958 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :<oklopol> -- jack james matrix < 1315783749 179195 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i thought that was a correction < 1315783752 146133 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you already corrected it < 1315783754 207705 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do that < 1315783755 826125 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot :( < 1315783758 49578 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's why i needed to do this < 1315783758 210251 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(attributing thigns) < 1315783760 622874 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to poeople) < 1315783761 270251 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1315783807 270702 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i did some coding yesterday < 1315783816 524557 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i've gotten sooooo slow :DDSDSD < 1315783819 97602 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :is anyone here good at electronics? >.> < 1315783856 746141 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: so you could construct a calculator by modelling z = x + y as a solid object .. using two rods to position a variable height rod over a plane < 1315783872 957480 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: what coding was it < 1315783884 207612 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: making this game just to see if i still can.... < 1315783896 323428 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: does that make sense easy enough? < 1315783908 448367 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, i get it < 1315783914 660602 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice idea huh < 1315783920 534427 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, totally awesome < 1315783925 76026 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would so buy that < 1315783927 983699 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1315783934 624887 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: what game < 1315783957 626355 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it's called claustrophobia, you are in this infinite matrix of blocks and all of them want to kill you < 1315784005 984873 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it's your mc-alike right < 1315784025 162384 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really, but it's a subset of it i suppose, what isn't < 1315784058 998720 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, okay it's not even a subset < 1315784087 519817 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-3.vodafone-net.de QUIT :Quit: Ex-Chat < 1315784160 407640 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-3.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1315784177 174267 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno how trivial those rods are that i described.. but a generalized version of the machine would involve loading in prebuilt formulas as phsyical manifolds < 1315784187 103496 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have four grandiose projects i hope to create if i ever relearn programming, one if the total mc ripoff, one is the 2d space exploration game, two are secretish < 1315784213 420478 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ph got gravity working btw < 1315784218 737504 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah right < 1315784223 372676 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then we found this javascript simulation of two-dimensional gravity that was way better < 1315784225 481901 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and actually had controls :P < 1315784227 807208 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i see it < 1315784231 419218 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I can find it < 1315784234 762092 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the better one < 1315784243 412518 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1315784272 410927 :cheater!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-3.vodafone-net.de QUIT :Client Quit < 1315784301 717758 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the stuff I have in /msg is just babbling about Star Trek gravity, so no. < 1315784305 324390 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might be in the channel logs. < 1315784337 491517 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: It did work in a stable manner, though. < 1315784394 914069 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it didn't work, that was the whole issue < 1315784400 562266 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Eh? < 1315784416 301867 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well obviously you can implement newtonian gravity in 5 minutes < 1315784423 762846 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I said _did_ work, not didn't. < 1315784433 215952 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1315784437 490163 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooooooops < 1315784443 513843 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol - an stupids. < 1315784454 583863 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- everyone, all the time < 1315784483 388609 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1315784483 548506 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- oklopol < 1315784490 171355 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"* augur (~augur@129.2.129.32) has joined #esoteric" --oklopol < 1315784503 341910 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm a profound dude. < 1315784550 935553 :sllide!~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1315784587 522000 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :halp < 1315784595 466710 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not english < 1315784604 246310 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hlep < 1315784610 366209 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION bits oklopol < 1315784623 979917 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: hepl < 1315784640 391361 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me you know < 1315784644 887111 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :things that i dont < 1315784699 345422 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bites even! D: < 1315784699 505380 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :about voltage regulators < 1315784740 463566 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah that's better. < 1315784762 599668 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :voltage regulators? you mean those things that keep the voltage at a constant < 1315784792 5690 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i take it you cant help < 1315784804 859753 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :where do i find some electronics makers < 1315784805 836297 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think this monitor is meant to be detatchable < 1315784812 998248 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pretty sure i can't, now answer mine < 1315784824 106373 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1315784866 59136 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just some thingie that removes spikes and shit and is of no theoretical interest < 1315784884 473047 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i still have a scar from this guy biting me in the fifth grade < 1315784913 680788 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh my < 1315784923 222975 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that fun huh < 1315784945 130021 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm? < 1315784963 491277 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only had straight sex in the fifth grade, and it was just finger sex < 1315784984 789273 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1315785013 141012 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good quote to remember < 1315785019 570930 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the quote bot around here? < 1315785037 528417 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style ff7 < 1315785037 688406 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII) < 1315785041 341451 :Gregor!foobar@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use `addquote < 1315785044 702164 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes oklopol. it maintains a voltage near a constant < 1315785046 967314 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you sir fungot < 1315785047 127317 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: now's our chance. we must search for him too! it's attacking!? talk! < 1315785070 220899 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot do you like haskell? < 1315785070 436786 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: corel was burned down by the gold saucer... think his name was close ever since that time. never know what time it wasn't a mistake bringing you here before you catch the chocobo race, please leave. so almost everything here can compare with the shinra up to shinra, inc. < 1315785079 351124 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dated the school slut for a while but she dumped me for a 15yo, wanted me back later but i guess i was still mad at her, such great drama < 1315785103 956190 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: ah we play with those all day in circuit theory < 1315785127 294237 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1315785127 454224 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7* fisher homestuck ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa sms speeches ss wp youtube < 1315785135 405606 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :who should i ask questions about them < 1315785150 481771 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there something to know about them? < 1315785150 641657 :itidus20!~itidus20@120.147.173.44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style nethack < 1315785150 801709 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal) < 1315785154 429824 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows the emag equations and shit < 1315785157 599994 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: ais might know < 1315785167 555929 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 to be precise < 1315785176 65242 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 is a smart gu6 < 1315785187 260954 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's an electronics guy < 1315785210 75065 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"emag equations"? < 1315785224 359010 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be an electronics person, but I'm bad at remembering nontrivial equations < 1315785232 311248 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :emag? < 1315785244 727947 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :with just voltage regulators and resistors, the equations are trivial < 1315785311 483146 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 is definitely an electronics guy < 1315785313 569824 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :SORRY MAN < 1315785323 186494 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes they should be trivial < 1315785328 808816 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i dont remember them < 1315785335 803775 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they are nontrivial to me < 1315785340 242180 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember them? < 1315785340 572268 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone tell me what emag stands for! < 1315785353 718140 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh emag was mentioned by quintopia < 1315785367 140958 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: can pm you a question? < 1315785384 166151 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: unless I have you on ignore, yes, that's how IRC works < 1315785387 891898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don' think I have you on ignore < 1315785396 146558 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :im being polite < 1315785398 30820 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or I wouldn't have been able to notice you'd asked me in-channel < 1315785402 833697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, fair enough < 1315785413 410166 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just seems like a bit of a redundant question < 1315785480 545813 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone ask ais523 private questions < 1315785489 236451 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :we must destroy the forces of politeness :( < 1315785490 373446 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.utdallas.edu/~cantrell/ee4302/memorize.pdf i certainly have never heard most of these < 1315785508 808213 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :memorize.pdf good name < 1315785550 979889 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just know abstract circuits with voltage regulators and resistors, you don't need to remember anything to solve those < 1315785577 723585 :ubuntu__!~ubuntu@ip-80-226-24-12.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1315785582 200250 :oklopol!~kvirc@dyn58-57.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, except U = RI