00:02:07 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to LoverOfCheeses. 00:07:15 * Sgeo is taking a lot of math this semester 00:07:36 Linear Algebra, Appl Probability & Statistics, Methods in Operations Research 00:12:09 -!- PatashuWarg has joined. 00:18:42 "In Haskell 98, the only classes that may appear in the deriving clause are the standard classes Eq, Ord, Enum, Ix, Bounded, Read, and Show." Is there any system that you can derive your own classes? Possibly using Template Haskell? 00:21:26 i believe there are packages for it 00:21:28 using template haskell. 00:22:52 you can also derive more classes for newtypes with the GeneralizedNewtypeDeriving flag 00:23:15 but that's specific to newtypes 00:24:45 and also ghc adds some more classes, such as Typeable. i think maybe also Functor, Traversable and the like? or maybe that's in a package. 00:25:45 -!- cheater__ has joined. 00:26:30 But can you do it with your own classes too? 00:26:44 there's no standard way 00:26:56 i'm sure template haskell must be able to, although i don't know it much 00:27:40 or perhaps you just need one of the more lightweight generics 00:28:20 http://hackage.haskell.org/package/derive 00:28:33 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:31:01 http://community.haskell.org/~ndm/darcs/derive/derive.htm 00:36:48 -!- LoverOfCheeses has changed nick to copumpkin. 00:42:35 Lapi. 00:42:52 Lappi. Lappila. 00:43:20 Läppäri. 00:43:41 Lapine laputa 00:43:52 *Laputa 00:45:15 Puta. Kom puta. 00:49:18 What I mean is if you can do something, if it were Template Haskell you might have a function of the type: Name -> (Info -> (Q [Dec])) -> (Q [Dec]) so that once you have specified the name of the class and the function that makes the instance declaration from the declaration containing the "deriving", and results in the declaration that tells it to accept "deriving" for that class. 00:51:36 It says monads have to do with category theory. 00:54:05 well they do, you don't need category theory to use them though 00:58:21 zzo38: iiuc derive doesn't use Template Haskell to generate the instance declaration, only to splice them into the original file, and you can choose to have it just append haskell code to the file instead 01:05:51 Just a few more days until I get a chunk of unintelligent design removed from my mouth. Yay. 01:06:33 brace for the removal? 01:06:48 No, wisdom teeth removal. 01:07:01 aha. 01:07:19 I have neither need nor desire for braces. 01:07:52 I apparently have no wisdom teeth 01:07:56 * oerjan never had any removed, but that may be because they removed four other teeth first when i _did_ get my teeth adjusted 01:08:28 * oerjan has 3 and maybe a fourth lurking inside 01:08:39 -!- cheater_ has joined. 01:09:12 was a plate, not braces though 01:09:31 * pikhq has 3, one of which is causing direct issues, two of which are probably going to. 01:09:43 ah. 01:10:19 i assume wisdom teeth were intelligent enough back when people used to have lost teeth before they came out 01:10:37 Actually, that's not really it. 01:10:45 oh? 01:10:45 Wisdom teeth made sense when we had larger jaws. 01:11:00 They fit. 01:11:09 oh well 01:11:27 And it took longer for them to be selected against than for large jaws to be selected against. 01:11:50 * coppro is a proud part of evolution 01:11:50 -!- cheater__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:12:00 * pikhq is, too. 01:12:05 I'm missing one of them, you see. 01:12:06 KILL THE MUTANTS 01:12:16 oerjan: All life is mutant. 01:12:23 NO WAI 01:12:37 I apparently have a single half a one below my gum or something 01:12:46 Wasn't there something like an average of a dozen mutations per person? 01:12:47 but I've not seen it except on xray 01:14:47 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 01:39:27 I have wisdom teeth, but I'm goign to see if my jaw i abnomally large enough to fit them. 01:39:35 *is 01:41:10 if you can eat a banana sideways, you should be fine. 01:41:34 * MDude lays on his side, munches on a bannana. 01:41:54 sorry, i take no responsibility for lack of reading comprehension. 02:40:32 *crude sexual innuendo regarding munching on MY banana etc* 02:44:41 mdude: you need to hire fan girls 02:44:50 that is, girls holding fans 02:45:06 and practice lowering grapes slowly into your mouth by the stem 02:45:23 seeded grapes, so you can spit them on the floor (gracefully) 02:46:43 i utterly fail to see how this helps him check for an abnormally large jaw 02:52:01 it wouldnt, but it would help him make good friends with bacchus 02:52:19 i see 02:53:07 Today in Jeopardy one of the players had the lowest score I think I have ever seen: -6000 02:54:47 Did anyone ever go lower? 02:54:55 how was that managed 02:55:18 And he was a finalist! 02:55:38 (That is, this is the finalist game) 02:58:18 At least, during a match of two games, if you have negative they will not have to make up 6000, they will start with 0 instead of -6000 03:05:18 i heard that 03:05:22 -!- azaq231 has joined. 03:05:36 trebek's like "dont worry! you start over at zero tomorrow!" 03:05:58 how did that happen btw? i wasnt actually watching closely 03:06:05 i just heard some of the questions 03:06:13 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:10:36 Well, that player gave too many incorrect responses. 03:14:44 a little jumpy with the button were they? 03:15:08 so in final jeopardy they couldnt even bet? 03:17:53 Yes, if your score is zero or negative at the end of the second round, you are out and cannot play the final round. 03:21:04 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 03:21:12 -!- sebbu has joined. 03:26:22 That's pretty amusing. 03:29:40 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 03:36:18 Ok, for 200 points: How many operations are there in the Brainfuck programming language? 03:36:42 8 03:36:48 (what is 8) 03:36:52 Yes! 03:37:08 0x10FFFF. 03:37:13 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:37:18 hurray! i'm on my way to beating watson! 03:37:27 All but 8 of which are no-ops. 03:37:41 :P 03:37:49 lets say 9 then 03:38:04 with lots of syntactic sugar 03:38:15 im an idiot hence my questions can't actually challenge people 03:38:38 -!- pingveno has joined. 03:38:42 like i could ask how many "petals" are there on each of the "flowers" on this coffee mug i just made a drink with 03:39:08 but that would be NP hard I think 03:39:46 No, it's actually a quite trivial counting problem that *happens* to rely on state that we don't possess. 03:40:09 fine.. it's 5 ;_; 03:41:34 possessions of the state 03:44:47 I think the Haskell-like type definition for the card types of Magic: the Gathering that I had given before is wrong, for a few reasons. One is that some things you select a card type, another is the way subtypes work is not quite like I said but there is some way of working still, and the game also has supertypes, etc 03:45:38 Does it also handle the multiple card-pieces on a single card? (e.g. split cards) 03:47:39 No, what I specified does not; however, I don't know if that belongs to the type definition for the card type. Note also that tokens can have card types. 03:49:20 A card type should correspond to the Magic "card" entity. 03:49:28 To do otherwise makes it a blatant lie. 03:49:40 Note also that tokens are not card. 03:49:48 Cards, even. 03:52:00 But tokens can still have card types. Copies of spells could also have card types (if it were up to me, copies would also be tokens, but I don't think those are the rules) 03:52:44 Those aren't card types. Those are just types. 03:53:07 Yes, Magic: the Gathering just calls them types. 03:53:24 Types apply to a wide variety of game objects, among them cards, permanents, and spells. 03:55:15 Yes they do. 03:55:50 And you really shouldn't conflate different game objects. 04:00:14 OK. 04:02:52 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 04:11:11 I know there is what Magic: the Gathering calls "object", so it is like "object type" I guess 04:11:51 Yeah, pretty much. 04:12:15 Also, and this is important, what's on a given card in no way corresponds to the in-game object. 04:13:31 I think the stuff written on the card corresponds to its "initial state". 04:14:03 Only sometimes. 04:14:09 Split and flip cards fuck that up. 04:16:55 when i was young i tried to do a street fighter 2 monopoly hybrid on paper 04:17:30 i don't recall how far i got 04:18:57 Yes, that is one of the reasons why I consider the Magic: the Gathering rules to be klugy and messy. If I wrote the rules, there would be no state-based effect saying tokens cease to exist; instead, tokens simply would have no initial state so when a token moved it would be destroyed and there would be no initial state to create any object in the new zone from. 04:20:56 It would make more sense at least to me; but too bad, that is not the rules. 04:21:16 They make a lot of klugy rules for various reasons, one is because of old rules they try to keep compatibility with. 04:21:49 Poor banding. 04:25:25 But I hope the programming language that I can invent (possibly with help) can be used not only to implement the actual Magic: the Gathering rules, but also the rules that I think they ought to have been. 04:25:47 But I still like help, of someone understanding my concerns and these kind of programming stuff. 04:28:38 does random searching. from the magic patent. "Provided herein is a novel method of game play and game components that in one embodiment are in the form of trading cards (10, 12, 40, 42, 44, 48, 54, 60, 64). " 04:29:22 "The patent has aroused criticism from some observers, who believe some of its claims to be invalid." 04:34:01 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 04:34:53 more patent-hate to be heard.. pastebinned to save channel spam http://pastebin.com/tDkAKYSM 04:35:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:41:56 Invalid or not, there are many related computer programs. I too believe it to be invalid but of course I don't know for sure. I don't like the patent either but eventually it expires anyways. Actually I dislike patents in general. 05:00:29 raises interesting questions .. eg.. can you patent a ball game? 05:00:54 The patent office might let you patent anything 05:01:10 makes sense now 05:05:16 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 05:08:19 There's a patent on toast, why not a ball game? 05:13:49 well its all about the selling isn't it 05:18:14 hummm.. Garfield [who designed Magic] studied under Herbert Wilf and earned a Ph.D. in combinatorial mathematics from Penn in 1993. 05:18:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:19:09 Yes, Dr. Richard Garfield is a professor of mathematics. 05:21:51 Yep 05:24:11 combinatronics seems to be the mathematics chasing buddha's tail 05:24:22 what 05:24:35 yeah.. he was a smart monkey that buddha 05:27:11 I still think random deck construction is a better game 05:28:26 well theres a quote here ''Impermanent are all compounded things.' 05:28:52 Quotation from? 05:30:13 coppro: Have you been able to consider my things I was asking about last time? I have added a lot of stuff since when I expect you to have last read it, if any 05:30:33 (As well as correcting a few typing mistakes and clarifying some things better too) 05:31:02 zzo38: Unfortunately not, I have been sidetracked by urgent business with the Pirate Party 05:31:55 OK. Can you tell me what stuff with the Pirate Party? I also have a few interests in those kind of things so I would like to know too. 05:33:49 zzo38: Rewriting the constitution 05:34:20 Do you have more details? Is there anything wrong with the constitution? 05:34:20 monqy: pardon me.. i want to stop me in my tracks before i do some ridiculous irrelevant rant :D 05:34:33 zzo38: yes, many things 05:34:46 most significantly, an unreasonable quorum 05:34:52 Yes I would think so, although I don't know the details really 05:34:56 Nor how to correct it 05:35:02 I'm working on correcting it 05:35:09 OK. 05:35:28 but meetings are on the 19th of each month, so this needs to be done as soon as possible 05:37:31 OK so you have less than 8 days I suppose! Can you tell me what your ideas are for reforming the constitution? Unfortunately I don't know much about the constitution. But I agree with the Pirate Party that patents are a bad idea in general. 05:40:50 I disagree that internet is a fundamental human right. It is derived! Of course you can have the right, but it would be derived on many levels. More fundamental would be simply open communication across all these channels. Internet is one of them. But perhaps even these channels is somewhat, derived. But it is still a right. Just because is not fundamental doesn't mean you don't have that right. 05:42:27 good point 05:47:45 carmack attacked patents in his keynote question time 05:48:51 if i recall correctly he called them parasites 05:49:06 and went on to repeat twice "everybody knows it!" 05:49:15 Well, of course. Patents serve precisely one purpose in the modern day and age: rent-seeking. 05:49:25 he said it very publically 05:49:39 but you know ... 05:49:48 This is, still, only anything surprising to people who don't pay attention to tech. 05:49:51 you're a smart guy.. (on account of being in #esolang) 05:50:06 you know.. 05:50:08 that.. 05:50:24 patents are like an altar made of wood 05:50:26 Patents directly harm most still-developing fields of technology. To the point that, because of them, it is illegal for me to write a non-trivial program. 05:50:37 onto which the rich can store their gold 05:50:43 Fuck the rich. 05:50:49 BUT 05:50:58 if we collapse this altar of wood 05:51:08 things will get ugly 05:51:25 May their wealth-at-the-expense-of-all-else burn. 05:51:32 coppro: It isn't for me to change 05:51:34 they won't say.. oh look, the peasants have raided our riches. let's play some more polo 05:51:57 no there will be a counter 05:52:06 it will be swift and fierce 05:52:12 What, you think that they're just fucking around right now? 05:52:34 the thing is... their power is not a product of patents 05:52:45 patents are merely an expression of their power 05:52:59 In case you hadn't noticed, many corporations are acting in concert to burn a country to the ground, gaining wealth, and moving on. As a matter of policy. 05:53:23 They won't "retaliate", they'll carry on as they have been. 05:53:53 well there is this other idea i should consider 05:54:27 part of the balance of society is the recognition of who owns what 05:54:48 a sort of mental application of intangible properties to objects 05:55:19 a door is an entry and exit point 05:55:39 a fork is for food 05:55:43 a rug is for carpet 05:56:01 a baseball bat is for sports and it is also a weapon 05:56:33 being in a violent state of mind, the violent one maintains these mental bindings 05:56:41 of what is a weapon and what is not 05:56:41 pikhq: your comments about patents are far from true in non-software industries 05:57:00 like.. projectiles can become weapons during anger 05:57:17 i guess that is a swap of things 05:57:40 coppro: No, it applies to all industries, due to patents being so utterly incomprehensible that the only thing they do is "for 20 years this is mine, pay me." 05:57:51 since projectiles are normally not weapons.. however... projectiles are usually well established long before they are ever thrown 05:58:01 pikhq: That's not true of all industries 05:58:05 one has an anticipated expectation of the weight of an object 05:58:16 pikhq: I have spoken with patent lawyers about this 05:58:37 It is of my opinion that patent laws ought to be abolished so that nobody can patent anything, but I am not an expert and making laws and maybe there needs to be some transition time. I don't know exactly what the provisions of the transition time would be. 05:58:48 so, that is to say, patents are the weapon of the corporations 05:58:51 It's *especially* damnable with exponential growth occuring. 05:59:09 Patent laws actually do serve a useful purpose in sectors where production costs are significant 05:59:25 and you see.. one corporation to another.. they need to keep a protocol among them... that.. "i can strike at you with patents, you can strike at me with patents" 05:59:32 As they protect small players from having their products duplicated faster and cheaper from larger players 05:59:39 Patent laws may have served in the past. But today I think patents is just very bad in general 06:00:06 Aaaah, the myth of the small company with a patent. This would be applicable if our legal system wasn't most-money-wins. 06:00:20 But, well, it is. 06:00:56 basically.. corporations enjoy the knowledge that they each hold patents against each other.. it is a stable battleground 06:01:22 i mean.. its like theres no hidden plasma ray 06:01:40 well no thats not what i mean 06:01:48 (even if you win, you lose, because you have legal fees to pay) 06:02:34 i mean, each company accepts that it is best to not rock the boat.. none of them want to fight over acquisition of a new weapon to fight each other with 06:02:35 pikhq: ours isn't 06:03:02 pikhq: also, seriously, the other sectors are not abusing patents the same way software is 06:03:17 pikhq: there are lots of statistics about this 06:03:31 like ok for example.. there is a protocol for gang violence... they have a tendancy to not use a lot of bombs and grenades as i understand it.. its mostly knives and guns 06:03:40 coppro: I see you're not familiar with Monsanto suing farmers for Monsanto GM'd crops cross-pollinating. 06:03:47 And winning. 06:03:48 Well yes software patents are in fact much worse than others, but I still think patents bad in general for a lot of things 06:04:01 pikhq: I'm quite familiar with that case 06:04:11 pikhq: Familiar enough to know that it was deliberate on the part of the farmer 06:04:36 pikhq: It was not cross-pollination; the farmer was deliberately harvesting and replanting crop that had grown on his side of the fence 06:06:09 The Supreme Court basically said "This case would be very different if it weren't deliberate" 06:06:16 As you can see the patent system is completely bad. 06:06:56 I would be in favor of having a short transition time and then completely abolishing patents. 06:07:23 I don't follow or agree 06:08:48 -!- azaq231 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:11:24 Perhaps it would help to have many exceptions about patents, such as that there is no penalty for private or personal use, and that documentation itself is not patented, and that perhaps patents would only apply in case of large volumes of sales that they would force to pay a royalty and require specific text on their product in certain conditions, and so on. And/or even something that prevents patents from hindering any free-software/open-sour 06:11:30 (Did it get cut off?) 06:11:34 it did 06:11:43 documentation cannot be patended 06:11:53 I agree, patents should be of more limited scop 06:11:57 *scope 06:12:03 they should also have a lesser duration 06:12:18 Yes, I agree to that as well; they should have a lesser duration as well. 06:12:33 Where did it get cut off? 06:12:57 open-source 06:13:02 for me it was "hindering any free-software/open-sour" however wait for a second opinion 06:13:07 ... software and even hardware. 06:13:55 (And there are cases where free-software/open-source is not even related to computer) 06:19:31 Perhaps something based on the four Stallman freedoms and the Open Source Definition, if this would help at all in determining some parts of patent reform. Or, in other words, if you respect everyone's freedom you are not sued by patents. But maybe in case of things other than computer software (or data), there would also be something having to do with the production costs and that kind of costs and stuff, which complicates it a bit. 06:23:37 -!- nooga has joined. 06:24:51 -!- nooga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:30:30 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:53:30 I used to be in three channels on Freenode. Now I'm on 16. Thanks, #haskell and #esoteric 06:53:49 yw 06:53:51 -!- plat0 has joined. 06:54:07 -!- plat0 has left. 06:54:42 No one ever talks in #haskell-in-depth 06:55:40 Once I went through Freenode's channel list in alphabetical order to somewhere around c or d, flagging potentially interesting-sounding channels I might consider joining (currently only on #esoteric and one #esoteric-spinoff); then I accidentally lost the file somewhere and gave up. 06:56:02 It'd be more efficient to go from alrgest to smallest 06:56:29 PatashuWarg: I don't see how, since there's the same number of channels to consider, no matter how you order them. 06:56:44 Small channels are stupid, is the thing 06:57:01 smaller channel = less likelyhood of activity 06:57:06 Well, you never know. 06:57:06 what's -spinoff is it any good 06:57:15 you do indeed never know 06:57:16 but you have only finite time 06:58:32 On the IRCnet side of the fence I'm on two channels where I'm the only person ever. (Except about twice a year someone else /joins, comments something like "oh, this channel seems to have died?", and /parts. 06:58:37 Those are the best channels. 06:59:07 None of this "chatting" nonsense. 06:59:14 I'm the only person ever in #typography 06:59:19 Except the other day 06:59:32 When jocom from #haskell was in 07:01:24 -!- joe6 has joined. 07:01:51 -!- joe6 has left. 07:13:30 -!- evincar has joined. 07:50:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 07:58:27 http://hackaday.com/2011/06/17/homebrew-ttl-logic-computer/ 08:01:47 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:07:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:08:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 08:15:02 That is utterly epic. 08:16:30 -!- Taneb has joined. 08:20:51 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 08:22:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:24:55 Morning! 08:27:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 08:30:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:31:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 08:33:00 -!- cheater_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat). 08:34:52 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:55:16 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:56:12 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: Sleep. -.-). 08:58:00 -!- cheater_ has joined. 08:58:53 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:02:46 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:18:27 -!- Taneb has joined. 09:23:18 -!- Taneb_ has joined. 09:23:26 -!- Taneb_ has left. 09:23:50 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 09:27:10 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 09:29:41 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 09:47:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:50:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:58:19 -!- copumpkin has joined. 09:58:22 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host). 09:58:22 -!- copumpkin has joined. 10:03:08 hmmm, so I think I'm going to write this program in C# 10:03:28 but Mono doesn't have complete support for Windows Presentation Foundation, so.. maybe I should find a different GUI toolkit. 10:07:05 ah, GTK# is what I want. 10:17:42 GTK# is okayish. Better than GTK from C IMO 10:18:26 GTK# might well be the most popular thing for GUIfying stuff in Mono. 10:19:45 Some of Gtk#'s documentation is not quite there, though. 10:21:01 it's not really surprising that GTK is the most-supported GUI toolkit for Mono, given the relevant history 10:21:02 ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 10:21:05 @messages 10:21:06 elliott said 26d 10h 12m 57s ago: Request a copy of the wiki page "100_free_dutch_dating_sites_2008". 10:21:06 Phantom__Hoover said 11h 14m 37s ago: BtW, you've been voted out of office in DF. 10:21:27 hmm, I suspect there is more than one ais523 involved 10:22:10 (Also personally I think WPF is really bizarroid. But I suppose that might just be the unfamiliarity. It's just that I've seen rather horrible XAML/C# messes.) 10:23:56 Incidentally, by "doesn't have complete support", don't you mean "no support at all"? 10:25:38 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:26:16 ais523: Where did the "523" come from? 10:26:35 it was a random number 10:26:36 Taneb: I suppose the first 522 clones were somehow unsuitable. 10:26:46 in order to give me a different name from all the other ais'es 10:26:51 the entire username was computer-generated 10:27:14 it's certainly a better choice than WPF, which is pretty much portable to... Windows. 10:30:24 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:41:38 You know what would be tricky? 10:41:49 Making an interpreter in Inform 7 10:42:39 does it do arithmetic? I can't remember 10:42:45 if it did, a Deadfish interp wouldn't be too hard 10:42:45 An interpreter of what? 10:42:53 Any interpreter 10:43:28 ZBefunge is written in Inform Something, I don't know about the versions. 10:43:31 http://flourish.org/zbefunge/ 10:43:51 (Also the first Befunge(93) interpreter I ever used; I have warm feelings towards it.) 10:43:58 Nice 10:44:02 I think that's Inform 6 10:44:27 Could be; it's old-ish. 10:45:48 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 10:47:34 inform 6 and 7 have basically no similarities 10:47:52 Inform 7 is built on inform 6 10:48:04 It compiles into inform 6, I think 10:48:13 well, INTERCAL compiles into C 10:48:18 that doesn't mean the two languages are similar in any way 10:48:30 True 10:48:32 (although they're more similar than inform 6 and inform 7, because at least they have a vaguely related paradigm) 10:59:34 I've set [a Reddit bot] free in /r/politics. It's a relatively primitive version of Eliza that simply takes the context of the post and randomly assigns blame or shortcomings to predetermined targets (e.g., Bush, Republicans, etc.). When it can't infer context, it simply doesn't post. (I found that responding with something too general made people suspicious.) The real fun was taking an old lisp implementation & porting it to haskell & playing 10:59:36 w/ its HTTP package. So far it's worked pretty well. Right now it has a comment karma more than 10x mine. 10:59:37 awesome 10:59:44 although he's keeping the username secret for obvious reasons 11:07:55 ais523, hehe 11:08:17 ais523, I love the bit aboutthe 10x comment karma 11:08:30 about the* 11:17:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:18:10 Oh, damn. 11:18:16 I left a torrent throttled overnight. 11:24:40 Well, I know have a watch that points in every direction but North 11:24:49 And I'm going out now, bye 11:24:51 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: He's a big quitter he is.). 11:25:06 I... 11:26:35 RAINBOW 11:36:11 hmm, does anyone here know of ATS (a language that isn't meant to be eso, but may as well be)? 11:36:15 here's some code: http://www.ats-lang.org/EXAMPLE/MISC/quicksort_list_dats.html 11:38:25 the homepage is effectively saying "look how great our language is, it only took us ten years to write quicksort" 11:38:31 I know of it, yes 11:38:48 do you have opinions on it yet? 11:38:53 ais523, the formally-verified one, yes? 11:38:57 I've only just seen it, so I don't yet 11:38:59 Phantom_Hoover: that's more or less it 11:39:31 it's basically, you write both an imperativish and a functionallish program, in such a way that you prove they do the same thing 11:39:36 I think I ran into it first when it was at the top of the shootout 11:39:54 I don't think it's that they took 10 years to write quicksort, but that they took 10 years to write a formally-verified quicksort. 11:39:57 and then once they do the same thing, it deletes the functionallish one and just runse the imperativish one 11:39:59 Phantom_Hoover: well, yes 11:40:07 but that's the whole point of the language 11:40:27 Yeah, it's... preternaturally ugly. 11:41:09 I do indeed find it hard to read 11:41:15 but it's effectively an esolang, and they're all like that 11:41:32 it looks more interesting than most esolangs on the wiki 11:41:37 indeed 11:41:45 the average standard of the wiki is really low 11:41:50 monqy, so does a pile of dead leaves. 11:41:56 yep :( 11:42:01 and you'd expect it to be, given that the wiki tries to codify everything 11:43:15 Category:Above Average 11:44:06 as long as we define average as median, and make sure it's always on exactly half the languages, I'm for 11:45:20 Category:Significantly Above Average 11:45:50 shameful is my favourite category 11:46:00 it's not a real category 11:46:03 and it officially doesn't exist 11:46:06 (I doubt half the languages are even interesting) 11:46:09 but yes, I like it too 11:49:28 hmm, I'm going to go on Special:Randompage a bit and list the first ten languages I come across 11:49:34 then we can debate about how many of them are interesting 11:51:55 UniCode, 0x29A, Yo, Gibberish, Java2K, MailBox, BytePusher, Version, Ozone, ParrBF 11:55:35 UniCode has too little content to be interesting 11:58:18 0x29A seems interesting enough, doesn't seem like an obvious rehash of anything to me 11:59:39 Yo is about as uninteresting as it gets 11:59:39 0x29A is a bit weird 11:59:43 it feels deficient, in some way 11:59:50 Yo is in the same category as LOLCODE, I think 11:59:55 only even less interesting 12:00:54 Gibberish is like a less interesting Unefunge 12:01:07 -!- boily has joined. 12:01:27 Java2K I have a personal dislike for, it has an interesting idea but a poor execution of it 12:02:07 (0x29A, Java2K, and BytePusher are the only languages on that list I recognised, and Java2K is the only one where I actually remembered what it was about) 12:02:58 MailBox is thematic, and seems to use a paradigm pretty rare among esolangs 12:03:10 but I'm not convinced it does anything interesting with it 12:03:42 I'd still call Java2K interesting even if it's executed poorly 12:03:55 Agreed on Gibberish 12:04:58 BytePusher I'm not even sure how to classify 12:05:06 MailBox seems fine 12:05:09 it's an uninteresting OISC, except that it seems to allow for low-level hardware access 12:06:15 Version's one of cpressey's, and it's more of a tarpitisation of INTERCAL than anything else 12:06:24 but with better string handling 12:06:38 certainly above-average for esolangs in general 12:10:14 Ozone is vaguely reminiscent of Underload 12:14:18 and ParrBF is a limited version of BF; more interesting than most of the /other/ limited versions of BF, but not by much 12:14:24 hmm, that was a better set of results than I was expecting 12:24:18 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 12:43:12 -!- Taneb has joined. 12:44:28 Oh, today's IWC 12:46:25 so is it better to construct a UI manually or to use one of the graphical editors that various IDEs have? 12:46:52 Depends how good you are 12:46:56 the visual aspect, that is. event code will always be... coded. 12:47:07 Taneb: no real UI experience. :P 12:47:14 Not really 12:47:22 By which I mean me neither 12:47:30 The latter then. 12:47:41 yeah I figure it will be easier at least. 12:47:51 I'm just wondering if it produces ugly code that would be made less ugly if done manually. 12:48:07 Almost certainly 12:49:40 I find that the GUI editors are only really useful if you already know how to do it manually 12:49:49 and then you can use them to generate the code with less typing 13:05:58 -!- asiekierka has joined. 13:05:59 hi 13:06:12 hey. 13:10:38 an idea i've had: http://pastebin.com/m3avwkxb 13:11:56 what do you think, if anything 13:12:06 (nodes can not only be A,B,C, they can be of any name) 13:12:31 oh. right. there's also a default Store and Compare value of True and of False 13:13:25 afk 13:17:30 one more idea, Copy B for node running it to become node B, keeping only the name 13:17:33 CopyAction to copy just the action 13:17:37 CopyCompare to... you get the idea 13:17:38 really afk now 13:23:02 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:50:43 vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc 13:50:51 something was stuck in my keyboard 13:51:04 and as normal, I didn't bother deleting the keys pressed as I tried to clear it out 13:51:16 however, it was in another channel, so I had to cut/paste it over to #esoteric... 13:53:33 elliott: You're not here. 13:53:38 <-- genius 13:56:12 Gregor: he logreads, so that statement is not entirely useless 13:56:14 just mostly 14:00:14 ais523: As punishment for you're being here, I'm telling you this anecdote: Yesterday I accidentally uninstalled dash, coreutils, grep, sed, tar, dpkg and apt. Then, I fixed my system. 14:00:33 s/you're/your/ ... I think? 14:00:36 That's a weird "your" 14:00:45 yep, "your", "being" there is a gerund not a participle 14:00:50 I think "you" is what I wanted. 14:00:57 and you're using it as a noun 14:01:10 Anyway, grammar aside :P 14:01:43 that's a lot of things to accidentally uninstall 14:01:45 was it specifically that set? 14:01:59 first thing I notice is that you probably still have a shell, even though you don't have dash 14:02:12 although that's maybe less important 14:02:20 because you likely have a shell open to do the accidental uninstall 14:02:32 Yeah, I still had bash. 14:02:36 And it was specifically that set. 14:02:40 and you also still have wget, in that case 14:02:50 and you still have sudo 14:03:02 What I was TRYING to do was install something in a debootstrap, then uninstall all the core garbage I don't actually want, so I just ended up with the something I wanted and its dependencies. 14:03:06 so you can just sudo wget the executables right onto your filesystem 14:03:13 I accidentally unintalled the core garbage on the host instead of the guest >_> 14:03:22 ais523: Didn't have chmod though 14:03:30 oh right, so they wouldn't be executable 14:03:38 just use any of the other methods for changing permissions, then 14:03:46 I've seen a slideshow with about 10 of them 14:04:15 the first one that came to mind for me now is the Perl one-liner 14:04:44 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:04:54 but there are some other clever ones, like using ld-linux.so to run a nonexecutable versions of chmod, or copying an existing executable and overwriting its contents but not metadata 14:05:05 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 14:05:09 one I've used before now is to copy to a VFAT filesystem and back, that sets the executable bit if it isn't mounted noexec 14:05:39 so, what method did you use? 14:05:58 Now I'm trying to remember which I used first X-D 14:06:12 (Once I had tar, I just let tar do it, but I forget how I got tar working ... ) 14:06:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:06:23 OH that's right hah 14:06:26 I still had ssh and scp :P 14:06:32 I just scp'd the tar binary from another computer 14:06:37 oh, so you scped an executable 14:06:42 and scp set the executable bit as a result 14:06:45 Yup 14:06:49 simple enough 14:07:02 Then I had to refetch all the .deb packages and extract them, then install them properly :P 14:07:14 hmm, I think there's a big scary confirm for trying to uninstall anything marked essential 14:07:24 but on the other hand, you probably overrode that because your debootstrap would have to 14:07:38 things that always scare me: mke2fs needs a force option to operate on a regular file 14:07:49 and I really don't like forcing a command that's designed to reformat your hard drive 14:08:07 (luckily, I can run it as non-root, which reduces the potential for accidents by quite a lot) 14:08:56 Yeah, I overrode that because I thought I was doing it in a chroot :P 14:09:38 hmm, how easy is it to detect if you're in a chroot, if you aren't root? 14:09:54 not breaking out of it, just discovering if you're in one 14:10:23 Not easy. What I'd probably do is check the process list and see if the files don't seem to conform to my filesystem. 14:10:41 I suppose a relatively simple way would be to check /proc; if it isn't there, you're probably in a chroot, if /proc/1/cwd isn't / (verifying by trying to visit from it), you're probably in a chroot 14:10:59 but you can use a separate PID namespace to get out of that 14:18:46 -!- PatashuWarg has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:20:24 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude. 14:47:07 http://pastebin.com/m3avwkxb what do you think 14:55:06 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:15:36 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 15:23:03 -!- azaq23 has joined. 15:33:15 ais523, just so you know, I'm currently engineering for your successor as mayor to meet with an unfortunate accident. 15:33:27 heh 15:33:35 the voted-out me is still fine? 15:33:46 or does voting out get combined with an unfortunate accident in #esoteric DF? 15:34:17 I don't do unfortunate accidents 15:34:33 The last time I tried, it was a bit too unfortunate. 15:34:44 what happened? 15:34:46 I like DF stories 15:34:51 Flooded the entire fortress. 15:35:14 ouch 15:36:20 ...Don't use a river to flood a room. Use a pit/pond zone 15:41:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:42:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:45:37 ...Don't use a river to flood a room. Use a pit/pond zone 15:45:45 I'm being very, very careful about it. 15:46:12 To the extent of having 2 doors and a floodgate between the room and the fortress, as well as a J-tube. 15:46:50 Of course, elliott is probably going to mess it up as soon as I pass control to him, but whatever. 15:47:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:48:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:58:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:59:33 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:01:43 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:04:25 hmmm, there seems to be nowhere I can get free linux/ubuntu stickers. 16:04:31 Oh jesus we're being offered to become a barony. 16:04:38 Wrong channel, but whatever. 16:04:47 what 16:06:28 coppro, Dwarf Fortress. 16:07:17 #esoteric DF? 16:07:18 what 16:07:23 when did DF get multiplayer 16:09:29 asiekierka, succession fort. 17:02:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: No route to host). 17:04:13 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:05:22 If I was a magician I would want as ultimate ideal to never perform the same trick to an audience twice 17:16:43 wow, I just saw someone explain a Chuck Norris joke on Slashdot 17:16:47 those jokes need explaining? seriously? 17:17:02 (this is independent of whether you think they're funny or not) 17:24:01 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:39:36 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:40:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 17:52:14 -!- elliott has joined. 17:55:20 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:57:51 -!- copumpkin has joined. 17:59:18 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:00:17 http://filesharingz.com/community/topic/197185-and-when-even-the-death-penalty-doesn%E2%80%99t-deter-copying-%E2%80%94-what-then/ 18:00:39 that's quite the URL 18:01:19 itidus20: that's like, the least reputable URL for a fairly reputable article 18:01:33 http://torrentfreak.com/and-when-even-the-death-penalty-doesnt-deter-copying-what-then-110807/, written by Rick Falkvinge, founder of the Swedish Pirate Party 18:02:10 ahh down the bottom it says "News Source: Torrent Freak " 18:04:24 I also liked http://torrentfreak.com/former-google-cio-limewire-pirates-were-itunes-best-customers-110726/ 18:07:08 I have dynamic DNS and multi protocol use, and even the invention of Hypernet, so hopefully my file and speech are more difficult to be censored anyways; I also encourage copying instead of discourage which is another thing to help possibly. 18:07:37 I have circa 700 books. Some secondhand, some new. 49 playstation 2 games. over 100 dvds. 10 dvd box sets. A bunch of audio cds. A bunch of magazines. a $300 dictionary. a $200 8 volume comicbook. From when I worked at a carwash basically. 18:07:49 BILLING SUMMARY 18:07:50 --------------- 18:07:50 PRIOR BALANCE: $-10.67 18:07:50 --------------- 18:07:50 NEW BALANCE: $-10.67 18:07:56 slicehost, why are you emailing me for this 18:08:04 I mean I chase cheap deals sometimes like books which libraries sell off 18:08:26 Hypernet is intended nobody can possibly terminate your service, because there is no service to terminate! 18:08:41 hey pikhq, go pretend tup's lack of technical C standard compliance is an issue to you so that somebody pays attention to my post 18:08:44 but.. it is not that I haven't liked spending money in the past.. 18:10:28 I like copying because it makes possible what is not at all possible for an individual to otherwise do legally 18:12:30 So what can be copied, you may ask.. what can be copied? The only thing that can be copied is a work which has been completed. 18:13:03 A work which can be copied is one which sets a person up to live indulgantly on some past accomplishment indefinitely. 18:13:41 Whether this is a good thing or not is hard to ascertain 18:14:49 a minion who is working on something such as a programmer working on a game or an animator working on a film etc doesn't even get any rights to that thing they work on 18:15:07 -!- boily has joined. 18:15:56 they just get a salary 18:17:38 -!- derrik has joined. 18:17:48 So most of the time it is the company which owns a copyright, which i guess does go some way to alieviating the former problem 18:18:30 itidus20: what was the former problem? 18:19:46 Ok so.. someone creates something one day. Now the next day they can lay on the beach sunbaking waiting for people to pay for what the person made on the one day 18:20:06 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:21:30 So they become potentially idle. Their contribution to society has been made. Now they have nothing more to give. 18:22:28 But in practice, the main ones who owns such works are companies. 18:23:03 So the individuals who can get rich off one creation are rare. 18:23:33 However, a company cannot simply exist by maintaiing it's current level of money 18:23:55 It has to constantly increase for the shareholders. 18:24:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:24:34 And the shareholders.. their price is being at the mercy of risk 18:25:34 itidus20: true.. this is why they constantly invent more copyrights.. they are copyrighting pieces of whatever we can see around us.. 18:26:03 there is no point.. i am merely nutting out the logic of this as i go 18:26:05 tell me more 18:26:10 that is to say i don't know the point 18:26:36 hi boily 18:29:12 But what it means is that copy protection creates an inefficency whereby companies contribute less because they can sort of ride on the wave of their past accomplishments 18:29:43 This seems to be at odds with the fact that companies would gut each other if they had the chance. 18:30:18 You are assuming that corporations are rational actors. 18:30:27 They are perhaps the least rational actors. 18:30:51 the competition wihch would result from no copy protection would probably create huge ineffiencies 18:31:16 but as it is, there are no huge inefficiencies, of course 18:31:40 yes.. i grudgingly accept from my analysis that the system is not so bad 18:31:50 o.0 18:32:33 lol 18:32:49 but you see... i don't like the kind of system which is driven by financial goals 18:32:57 if by efficiency you mean that companies won't stop until the resources are used up, then yes, they are efficient 18:33:28 i am just getting lost among my ideas now 18:34:03 good.. it means you are sane for the time being 18:34:09 sorry guys.. yeah I have an alternative line of thought sort of going on 18:34:38 i can't think up a system that actually works perfectly.. but my utopia is something like 18:34:43 why do companies have to grow all the time. That isn't sustainable 18:34:52 laziness is related to boredom! 18:35:07 itidus20: you realise quintopia was being sarcastic right 18:35:19 he didn't say bazinga 18:35:25 but i think i do now. lol 18:35:28 Vorpal: Because stupid. 18:35:43 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:35:46 pikhq, but if you would ever reach 100%, then what 18:35:56 At present, our entire economic system does not *handle* a lack of growth at all. 18:36:04 i have the lorax on my pc 18:36:11 i stole it 18:36:12 hehehe 18:36:20 It straight-up makes the assumption that growth tends to be positive. 18:36:31 now theodore seuss is dead... so screw him 18:36:43 Rather than having a (potentially-unknown) upper bound. 18:36:47 `addquote now theodore seuss is dead... so screw him 18:36:50 584) now theodore seuss is dead... so screw him 18:37:00 itidus20, lorax? 18:37:06 dr. geisel will not be please 18:37:08 yes, the lorax 18:37:09 pikhq: not "tends".. there are just two things: 1. growth 2. crisis 18:37:11 d 18:37:11 itidus20, what is it 18:37:18 hmm 18:37:24 a good question 18:37:26 derrik: There is a 3rd option, unconsidered. 18:37:32 derrik: No growth is possible. 18:37:48 derrik, what about a stand-still? 18:37:51 that falls under crisis 18:38:01 Corporations just flail horribly when they hit this. 18:38:04 pikhq: the third option will never be considered.. you named it right 18:38:32 Typically causing significant harm to the company, oddly enoughj. 18:38:50 pikhq, why not just accept it, and maintain status quo 18:38:59 Vorpal: Corporations are not rational actors. 18:39:18 pikhq, why couldn't some company be rational? 18:39:31 they are not entirely irrational.. they are completely predictable 18:39:40 derrik: Predictable != rational. 18:39:49 but good enough for analysis 18:39:55 there is a method to their madness 18:40:10 derrik, yes but do you not know what "rational actor" means? 18:40:30 knowing things makes it harder to make grand, sweeping statements, Vorpal 18:40:41 elliott, XD 18:40:59 Vorpal: if you mean it in relation to game theory, that's not a good concept to use in economy 18:41:10 derrik, I know the term from AI theory 18:41:17 I assumed that was the term pikhq used 18:41:19 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:41:28 Hello! 18:41:31 hi 18:41:35 hi Taneb 18:41:37 err, not term. I mean "meaning" 18:41:42 Vorpal: Rational choice is... not from any AI theory. 18:41:57 I now have seen Slumdog Millionare 18:42:07 elliott, well true, I first ran into the term in an AI context though. 18:42:18 elliott, so i guess it is from game theory in this case 18:42:32 It's from economics. 18:42:35 the problem with game theory when applied to economics is that in game theory the players know the game.. in real-life economy the players hardly know anything about the game 18:42:45 elliott, not familiar with it in that context 18:42:56 i dont have the lorax text but i have an audio version so i will interpret from there 18:42:58 an idea i've had: http://pastebin.com/m3avwkxb 18:43:09 tho they sure think it's a game 18:43:13 itidus20, you never answered what "lorax" is 18:43:31 derrik: so what do you think of esolangs 18:44:00 Vorpal: At the far end of town where the grickle grass grows, and the wind smells slow and sour when it blows and no birds ever sing excepting old crows... 18:44:05 itidus20: upload lorax to internet or something so we can all take a look at it 18:44:17 itidus20, a poem? 18:44:57 derrik: The typical *assumption* in economics is that entities are rational actors. 18:45:04 asiekierka: Can you explain your idea to me? 18:45:06 This, of course, is inherently flawed. 18:45:14 derrik: ? 18:45:15 itidus20, okay googled it. So a book 18:45:22 itidus20, why couldn't you just have said that 18:45:30 Taneb it's an esolang based on these simple nodes 18:45:34 It's a bit like assuming frictional pullies. It makes shit easier, but it also makes shit not always *work*. 18:45:34 pikhq: that is a typical sign of a typically bad economist.. don't read further 18:45:35 no i want to explain what the actual lorax is.. but its a slow response 18:45:41 essentially a node can autorun and/or be triggered by another node 18:45:44 Frictionless, even. 18:45:47 autorun = every tick, it's started 18:45:48 elliott: reading about the thing on wikipedia right now :) 18:45:58 the tick is incremented after all autoruns/fired nodes were ran 18:46:01 derrik: Umm, you don't know what esolangs are? 18:46:04 nodes have a Compare and Action segment 18:46:05 derrik: Then why are you in this channel? 18:46:09 derrik: In case you hadn't noticed, I've been *stating* that it's a bad assumption. :) 18:46:20 Compare - the nodes that should be checked for their values 18:46:27 ActionTrue/ActionFalse - what to do when Compare returns True/False 18:46:27 pikhq: cool 18:46:35 derrik: This is an esolang channel after all... 18:46:38 asiekierka: Sounds interesting 18:46:41 Action commands are Fire, Store and StorePrev 18:46:44 Fire - call another node 18:46:56 elliott: because you sound smart sometimes.. i am a linguist.. it is somewhat related to esoteric languages :) 18:46:59 Store - always last command, stores the value of the node mentioned as its own (also stops parsing other commands) 18:47:09 (by default it stores the Compare result) 18:47:16 derrik: did you think this channel was about esoterica like most people.....? 18:47:24 StorePrev - always last, stores the value of the node mentioned before firing it or comparing it 18:47:31 i checked, you can make an LFSR in it 18:47:34 and probably more 18:47:51 i also plan to add a HiddenCompare 18:47:51 derrik: i have been here long enough by now.. i know what it is about and i keep returning 18:47:53 Make an article on the wiki? 18:48:01 which won't save the result as the node's value 18:48:06 Taneb i will once I have an interpreter 18:48:09 also i need a name 18:48:17 You don't need an interpreter 18:48:21 i want to! 18:48:34 Make an article and someone else may make an interpreter 18:48:37 Vorpal: basically the lorax is a small creature who lives in a place where business comes along and uses up all the resources, and he tries to talk reason with them 18:48:40 ok, i will tomorrow 18:48:44 or today, even 18:48:58 i just need a name 18:49:30 and he has all the wonder that a dr seuss character tends to have 18:50:56 -!- boily has joined. 18:51:07 itidus20: I see 18:51:33 it's a cool story... they made an animation about it, as they did for many of his stories 18:53:14 I've been told I look like a Dr Seuss character 18:54:31 By people who have never seen Dr Seuss characters, I assume. 18:55:04 Anthony Hopkins as the Onceler 18:55:20 just kidding 18:55:22 Back then, I almost did 18:55:38 but they did do a live action movie of the grinch and the cat in the hat 18:55:47 so they could do the lorax 18:56:06 speaking of the onceler, i have a passage about him here: 18:56:20 He stays in his Lerkim on top of his store. 18:56:20 He lurks in his Lerkim, cold under the roof, 18:56:20 where he makes his own clothes 18:56:20 out of miff-muffered moof. 18:56:35 (oops didnt remove linebreaks properly 18:57:41 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 19:08:51 What is miff-muffered moof? 19:09:44 that's a tough question 19:10:12 `addquote What is miff-muffered moof? that's a tough question 19:10:13 585) What is miff-muffered moof? that's a tough question 19:11:22 -!- variable has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:14:58 audio version was by ted danson.. i can't complain. he does good 19:15:18 tswett is the new mayor, BtW. 19:15:39 Of what? 19:16:04 Of the Dwarf Fortress fort we're running. 19:16:26 Ah. Excellent. 19:16:29 one of these audio books is by john cleese 19:16:40 Will I die in a lava chamber? 19:17:23 Phantom_Hoover has already killed the last two in succession. 19:17:31 I'm just saying, I would hire a bodyguard. 19:17:47 * tswett nods. 19:17:50 elliott, I only killed one! 19:17:52 And some scuba gear 19:17:57 What happened to Lymia then 19:17:59 And I drowned him!! 19:18:08 elliott, I haven't gotten around to drowning her yet. 19:18:13 tswett: Basically what I am saying is don't demand anything be made out of platinum or adamantium or anything else we've made. 19:18:17 Phantom_Hoover: Oh, so it was just an election. 19:18:18 elliott, you're my bodyguard. If I die in lava, I want you to die in lava, too. 19:18:28 ais523 was a good mair 19:18:30 tswett: No sorry I am too busy building myself the best bedroom. 19:18:33 s/mair/mayor/ 19:18:34 tswett: And killing PH. 19:18:35 I'm getting the drain fitted to the rooms, though. 19:18:38 He like low boots and copper 19:18:38 And destroying Taneb's bedroom. 19:18:42 Taneb: You mean ais53. 19:18:46 He's an earlier iteration. 19:18:48 Possibly 19:18:53 Well, then, I only have one choice. 19:19:04 I'm going to punch every dwarf in this fortress, causing a tantrum spiral. 19:19:15 He wants tin items. 19:19:19 tswett: I'll just lock up most of them 19:19:20 There is no tin on this map. 19:19:26 TIN OR YOU DIE. 19:19:28 Phantom_Hoover: Kill time 19:19:40 tswett: You should see what we do to the elf traders. 19:19:55 (Seize all their items and then kill them. You think the elf blood everywhere in the trading depot would tip them off.) 19:20:01 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:22:21 Maybe they didn't recognize it is elf blood? Or maybe it evaporated? 19:22:46 It didn't evaporate, it's still on the item list if you look at it 19:22:49 It's soaked the walls 19:23:03 But elves are dumb anyway 19:23:15 Elves don't know what elf blood is. 19:23:30 They don't actually have any sharp objects. 19:23:59 X-D 19:24:05 Are their swords made out of BLUNT wood? 19:24:19 Do they just fight by giving everyone splinters. 19:28:00 Taneb any name ideas for that esolang concept of mine? 19:28:04 Not really 19:28:15 i could call it binod 19:28:19 For me, I generally think of a name first, then make a language under the name 19:28:21 Go for it 19:28:51 Woo, I have three jewelers. 19:28:55 Which... is too many. 19:30:07 I should make the excess jewelers miners. 19:30:32 tswett: I must inform you that Dwarf Fortress discussion is only STRICTLY on-topic in #esoteric-minecraft. 19:30:55 Here, it's only loosely on-topic? 19:31:03 (This is because Dwarf Fortress is literally Minecraft.) 19:31:12 tswett: Well, I don't want to imply that we have a TOPIC... 19:31:33 What I am finding is that the name esolang, refers to a thing with a zing and a blang. 19:32:49 But not a dabdoobler from a high ninimajoo, but yes a thrump-frumper from diddy-la-doo. 19:33:09 (i overdosed on dr seuss just now) 19:33:17 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:33:28 tswett: For instance, Phantom_Hoover's updates on the drainage system for his dorf-killing trap would be incredibly rude in #esoteric, because the fact that #esoteric-minecraft exists implies that the speaker did not consider it on-topic there, and therefore the only reasonable assumption would be that they were talking about real-life little people. 19:33:46 So, while DF discussion is not off-topic per se in #esoteric, it is likely to get you exiled. 19:33:57 Ah. 19:33:59 What. 19:34:15 Phantom_Hoover: It is only logical. 19:34:21 * elliott takes off his pointy ears. 19:34:33 elliott, you forgot the other vital components. 19:34:39 Phantom_Hoover: I never take those off. 19:35:40 He likes is Spock costume 19:38:51 TODO: Fix that shiro bug, i.e. it catches all errors, including ones I actually want to be errors in all situations (perhaps? maybe not); also, once I've fixed that, make sure that the fix still catches general monadic pattern match errors (but _not_ pure ones, I think) 19:39:29 Shiro's the Haskell befunge-98 interpreter, right? 19:39:43 Yes. s/be/N/ is the long-term goal. 19:39:52 (There's unefunge and trifunge, and the generalisation to any N-dimensional funge is simple.) 19:41:12 Phantom_Hoover: Hey, fix Shiro or your dorf dies twice. 19:41:47 Okay, this is stupid. 19:41:55 Taneb: What. 19:42:11 Windows is just now notifying me that quintopia said "Hi" 19:42:22 Windows is your IRC client? 19:42:44 No, my IRC client told Windows to notify me 19:42:59 I'm using Windows due to network connection problems 19:49:34 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:50:12 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 19:50:24 -!- elliott has joined. 19:50:40 ok 20:04:24 OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK O 20:06:22 Is there any purpose to make a pseudomonad in Haskell that does not follow the monad laws, but can still be used with "do" notation, etc? 20:06:40 The monad laws reflect obvious transformations on imperative blocks of statements 20:07:25 I know. But what if there is some way to use the do blocks for something other than imperative? 20:07:37 Well, they're obvious transformations in general 20:07:39 For instance, you would think "do {x <- do {...; lastThing}; ...}" would be reducible to "do {...; x <- lastThing; ...}" (modulo bindings) 20:07:43 But without the monad laws, this isn't true 20:07:54 zzo38: The problem is that it's totally unpredictable 20:08:02 zzo38: Two equivalent implementations of a combinator could behave differently if you violate the laws 20:08:10 So you can't rely on much anything at all 20:08:20 Does the compiler assume the laws are sound? 20:08:38 tswett: No; Haskell programs that violate them are perfectly valid Haskell programs. 20:08:45 That is another thing I thought, which is can a compiler possibly transform differently in different cases or different compiler? 20:08:46 But you never want to write one ever. 20:09:17 A compiler that optimised based on the monad laws would be in violation of the standard. 20:09:44 However, violating the monad laws horribly breaks everyone's intuitions. 20:12:38 -!- Behold has joined. 20:13:08 it would be easy for someone to accidentally write a ghc rule which assumed it, though 20:13:34 and i think i saw someone mention a package somewhere which did 20:14:01 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:14:38 incidentally, i think the arrow notation assumes the arrow laws something heavily to rearrange things 20:15:17 > proc something 20:15:18 Not in scope: `proc' 20:16:18 0x29A is a bit weird 20:16:28 -!- monqy has joined. 20:16:33 it's broken in a way that just barely avoids destroying TC-ness :P 20:16:48 lovely stuff 20:17:23 definitely above average 20:23:24 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5). 20:23:41 how's it broken? 20:24:03 oerjan: also, "something heavily" is a weird phrase :P 20:24:14 O, so, it is not against the standard to use pseudomonads with do notation. But it is possible that nobody ever needs them anyways. 20:33:57 elliott, it has an s combinator that only does one stage of evaluation, according to the wiki. 20:36:35 OK, I've made a UML-based alternative to plash. 20:36:40 The question: DOES IT WORK? 20:36:43 The answer: Idonno 20:39:21 Phantom_Hoover: Heh, what. 20:39:28 zzo38: if you're doing anything significantly different with the do notation, you might want the NoImplicitPrelude and RebindableSyntax extensions for defining your own (>>=) function etc. for the do notation (not tied to the Monad typeclass), see http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/users_guide/syntax-extns.html#rebindable-syntax 20:39:31 Gregor: Hooray, now our sandboxes can have diagrams. 20:39:40 elliott: Usermode Linux :P 20:39:48 oerjan: NoImplicitPrelude is not necessary 20:39:54 just use RebindableSyntax then import Prelude hiding (Monad, etc.) 20:39:59 Gregor: I know :P 20:40:11 ok 20:40:32 Conditionals (e.g. "if e1 then e2 else e3") means "ifThenElse e1 e2 e3". However case expressions are unaffected. 20:40:39 ooh, that means you can do "if monadic then ... else ..." 20:40:44 oh wait, not quite :/ 20:40:48 not without overlapping instances 20:40:54 and you'd still want it for case expressions too, oh well 20:40:59 and really you want the syntax to differ at least some 20:42:15 how's it broken? <-- its combinator subset requires all applications to be full, so you can only use S with exactly 3 arguments 20:42:25 lol 20:42:27 nice 20:42:45 oerjan: so S(Ix) is invalid forall x? 20:46:26 it's valid but you must apply it to exactly 2 more arguments before it is evaluated 20:47:11 ah 20:47:20 hmm, is SKI sub-TC if you use strict evaluation, then? 20:47:28 "In the evaluation rule for s, it is not specified that either xz or yz are evaluated." 20:47:34 haha 20:47:40 i may have been the one who wrote that sentence. 20:54:17 Also Shiro TODO: Replace the stack with something better than a list. 20:55:28 elliott: unlambda has strict evaluation, so no. 20:56:31 -!- derrik has left. 20:57:07 In combinatory logic, whenever there are two open brackets adjacent, would I be correct to say the inner-most bracket and its partner are superfluous? 20:57:54 ...yes. 20:58:48 same syntax for it as haskell, really 20:58:48 But what I wanted to know is, is there any purpose anyone has ever made up that uses do notation in different way? 21:00:28 zzo38: there are experiments on changing the type of (>>=) to something like (>>=) :: ParametrizedMonad m => m p1 p2 a -> (a -> m p2 p3 b) -> m p1 p3 b 21:00:53 which allows combining actions which have some additional type variation 21:01:44 say if you want a monad like State, except where the type of the state does not need to stay the same throughout 21:02:13 elliott: My UML-based plash replacement is 228 lines of C and 107 lines of Python, but I can't think of anything it does that plash doesn't (other than the GTK+ "powerbox" bullshit) 21:02:32 I suppose it doesn't support X apps at all though :) 21:03:21 Gregor: Why would it not support X apps? 21:03:38 elliott: UML doesn't translate sockets from host to guest, and I didn't include networking support. 21:04:04 Taneb: in some sense (a b c d) is just syntactic sugar for (((a b) c) d) 21:04:22 (that also applies to both CL and haskell) 21:07:49 Okay 21:09:27 oerjan: in some sense? 21:09:31 I'd say that's literally true 21:10:03 well pretty close to it 21:10:12 CL has currying? 21:10:40 unless it has tuples, how else could it work? 21:10:43 although ghc _does_ try to detect when a function is fully applied, so it doesn't have to allocate a closure 21:11:42 but of course it presumably does that even if you write (((a b) c) d) 21:12:01 I'm assuming by CL you mean Common Lisp, which means that there isn't partial application (as far as I know...) 21:12:06 CakeProphet: combinatory logic :P 21:12:14 oh, well, nevermind. haha. 21:12:17 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:12:28 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:12:43 yeah combinatory logic has partial application. This is why you guys need me for these conversations. 21:12:47 to give you valuable information like that. 21:12:54 >_> 21:12:56 true dat 21:15:11 yeah, well, you know sum is just syntactic sugar for foldl (+) 0 21:17:47 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 21:17:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:22:57 traditionally (disputable - which traditions?) computer programs have been measured (disputable - who did this measuring?) on the basis of how quickly they could perform calculations (disputable - you're really talking out of your ass) 21:25:05 whos disputable 21:25:12 that's a reasonable statement. There's no need to defeat yourself. ;) 21:25:32 lol 21:26:30 there is a danger in these corrections i add in parentheses of creating a false sense of security among less discerning readers that there couldn't possibly be any errors in what i am saying 21:26:46 yeah we're not a very discerning crowd. 21:26:55 oh you guys are 21:27:21 I measure in terms of elegance and friends 21:27:24 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:27:27 I am just being honest about myself 21:27:30 I have to tell you something itidus20 21:27:36 sometimes I say things that are false 21:27:45 for ironic purposes. 21:27:56 it is something you should know about me. 21:28:01 monqy: so what's the circumference of the equator, measured in elegance and friends? 21:28:05 it helps understand half of the shit I say. :P 21:28:07 no he doesn't, he's lying 21:28:38 olsner: too big 21:28:39 for elegance i go for 20000 km 21:28:39 i was of course going somewhere with this.. but the train of thought has stopped for fuelling 21:28:45 oerjan: no don't do that! you'll cause a parad-AAAAH I'M IMPLODING. 21:28:45 er 21:28:51 *40000 km 21:28:54 oerjan: not a power of two? how un-round. 21:29:14 is there a word for unround that isn't unround? bumpy? 21:29:24 edgy? 21:29:38 elliott: the meter was _designed_ to make the circumference of the earth 40000 km. not along the equator, and they messed up the calculations, but anyhow. 21:29:48 not a power of two? how edgy. 21:29:52 brings a whole new meaning. 21:30:30 CakeProphet: I was thinking "uneven" at first, but... 21:30:43 how odd 21:31:18 unround is........... y[n], being a function of angle[n], is not equal to y[n+1] nor y[n-1] 21:31:47 there are just too many ways for something not to be round 21:31:50 thats one way to say it 21:32:02 itidus20: why do you use all of these hideous square bracket notations. 21:32:13 inappropriately. you're very naughty. 21:32:40 may it be a mathematica thing or something... 21:32:51 I wasn't even going to go there... 21:32:54 because i don't know combinatorial logic.. i don't know haskell. i don't know calculus. i don't know set theory. a mixture of these factors 21:33:06 none of those are relevant 21:33:21 well the calculus one is slightly relevant 21:33:25 monqy: i think i am going to do the bad thing i said i wanted to do.......... 21:33:33 because IRC doesn't have a subscript markup 21:33:42 there you go 21:33:43 elliott: bad thing??????? 21:34:04 itidus20: aha. well true mathematicians go for pseudo-(La)TeX in that case :P 21:34:08 y_n 21:34:35 so.. if someone wants to make a plugin for irc which uses embedded mimetex then i will give you your subscripts 21:34:38 I usually expect () when dealing with functions, but... it's arbitrary really. 21:34:49 I fear square brackets used in weird ways, really. 21:34:53 it's a phobia of mine. 21:35:05 i meant uh 21:35:18 monqy: yes.......... make a Shiro.Lens module which uses data-lens but then RENAMES THE OPERAtors........ 21:35:23 > sequence [[[][]][]] 21:35:24 Couldn't match expected type `t -> m a' 21:35:24 against inferred type `[a1]' 21:35:31 oh 21:35:38 hm 21:35:41 oh duh 21:35:43 lol 21:35:49 > sequence [[[],[]],[]] 21:35:50 [] 21:35:56 the nth Y... being a function of the nth angle.. .. the nth Y is not equal to nth+1th Y nor is the nth Y equal to nth-1th Y 21:35:59 oerjan: CAN'T FOOL ANYONE YOU DON'T KNOW HASKELL. 21:36:15 humm 21:36:23 AND I WOULD HAVE GOT AWAY WITH IT IF NOT FOR YOU PESKY KIDS 21:36:24 no that was even WORSE than the brackets 21:36:43 itidus20: I'm not really sure what that means. How is a function a function of a function without getting into some higher-order stuff. 21:36:51 itidus20: i do fail to see how that defines "round", though :P 21:36:54 well... i don't know how to say this 21:36:57 thats all 21:37:00 monqy: help i feelm bad... 21:37:04 elliott: ;_; 21:37:04 i know what i want to say.. i just don' know how to say it 21:37:49 itidus20: I'm taking a topology class in a year or so 21:37:58 so maybe I'll have a better way of saying by then. 21:38:06 Y n = Angle n ..... Y n != Y n+1 && Y n != Y n-1 21:38:21 angles need more than one point... or whatever n is. 21:38:29 n is an index 21:38:48 then yeah that doesn't mean anything. 21:38:54 i see... i have made a mistake 21:40:08 ^bf ++++++++[->++++++++>++++<<]>++.+++++++++++++..>+. 21:40:08 BOO! 21:40:09 n is an angle from 0 - 359.59 (lol) ... ( Y n != Y n-1 ) && ( Y n != Y n+1 ) 21:40:24 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:40:24 is n an integer? 21:40:26 Wikipedia article about Monad (category theory) also mentions Polyad. But I don't understand category theory much 21:40:38 never heard about polyads 21:41:01 CakeProphet: honestly the logic holds up even if n is a real 21:41:11 even if? it would have to be real. 21:41:20 ok 21:41:31 yes the logic holds up even though n is a real 21:41:39 sure. 21:41:50 but that is a pretty dismal idea of unround 21:41:55 Wikibooks has a article about Haskell/Category_theory so I will try to read that to see if it helps a bit 21:42:06 its like a dog crapped out a theory of unround 21:42:07 actually no I'm not going to lie you're wrong but it's no big deal. 21:42:40 I've had an idea for an esolang! 21:42:47 me too. 21:42:53 itidus20: your definition doesn't even prevent Y from making large jumps, as long as it repeats the new value at least twice 21:43:05 I'm going to make a spec, then an article 21:43:26 shit i tried to be clever with .59 21:43:29 hehehhe 21:44:02 not to mention that the only condition involved an integer increment 21:44:06 n is an integer angle from 0 - 360, where 0 = 360 ... ( Y n != Y n-1 ) && ( Y n != Y n+1 ) 21:44:11 Taneb: and then a spectacle 21:44:16 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:44:23 which doesn't make sense when you're talking about a continuous thing like angles. 21:44:36 hmm ok 21:44:48 fine ,, so that solution is rotten to the core 21:44:55 yep. 21:45:08 itidus20: radians, man 21:45:26 elliott: radians are lame. 21:45:32 angles make waaaay more sense. 21:45:37 *degrees 21:45:49 CakeProphet: I take it this is a boring troll 21:46:12 :P 21:46:14 i know it should really be statistical analysis of the gradient over various sections of the edge of the circle 21:46:23 in some manner 21:46:36 elliott: how can you deny the clever truth that degrees are superior? There are 360 of them in a circle! it makes perfect sense. 21:46:37 but you don't wanna see me try to imagine that as a formula 21:46:53 how many radians are in a circle? like 6.something? 21:46:55 makes no sense. 21:47:11 pi / 180? 21:47:13 two pies 21:47:17 oops 21:47:20 hehehhe oro 21:47:21 what 21:47:25 I was talking to CakeProphet 21:47:28 what? pies? 21:47:30 pies 21:47:33 hlep 21:47:41 I used to win at Word Warp a lot, until they canceled the service. 21:47:58 monqy: I only deal with cakes. 21:48:07 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/IMAGES3/WordWarp.png 21:48:20 CakeProphet: is the portals cake a false prophet? 21:48:28 ^portal 21:48:31 itidus20: stop stop no stop 21:48:39 want me to kill you dead 21:48:39 LET THE BAD MEME REMAIN DEAD 21:49:20 itidus20: that doesn't evem make sense to me. 21:49:33 ill reword 21:49:39 you know cake is like... flour, sugar, and eggs mostly... right? 21:49:50 CakeProphet: is the Portal cake a false messiah? 21:50:07 there is no like... divinity, or soothsaying properties to this mixture. 21:50:16 I've been told I look like a Dr Seuss character 21:50:27 ok so i'll cut to the chase 21:50:32 * oerjan recalls that jumping avatar Taneb used to have on the iwc forum 21:50:44 i imagine that you had the name cake long before that silly game ever got released 21:50:59 bad portal jokes always make me think 21:50:59 so you are saying it was actually a real movie of you? 21:51:00 http://www.girlzngames.com/comics/2010-12-22-Christmas-Gamer-Greetings.jpg 21:51:04 do you want me to think that 21:51:05 do you 21:51:12 monqy: NO DON'T REMIND ME 21:51:16 note: all portal jokes are bad 21:51:17 i wiped that comic frm my brajisofnj 21:51:21 note: do not make me think that 21:51:25 itidus20: I'm not really sure which came first but my name choice was unrelated. 21:51:32 it had to do with being an adolescent at the time. 21:51:52 oerjan: That is nought but a vague memory now. I don't actually pay attention to my own avatar 21:51:53 I forsee a cake on my birthday!!!! 21:51:53 also Portal is an awesome game, memes aside. 21:52:04 Portal 2 is even more awesome. 21:53:04 there's gel! it splooges out of pipes! controlled by valves! how clever Valve. 21:53:07 oerjan: Just remembered it 21:53:40 CakeProphet, the memes are just the inevitable result of something funny becoming popular. 21:53:46 cf. Monty Python. 21:53:46 ?pl x `seq` y $ z 21:53:47 (x `seq` y) z 21:53:55 oerjan: noOOOOooooooooooo 21:54:40 elliott: erm what did you expect? 21:55:13 oerjan: i want to say 21:55:18 blahblah `seq` blahblah `seq` 21:55:23 ............ $ x 21:55:31 you should be able to have negative operator perecredcecends :( 21:56:41 what does that even mean. 21:57:14 anyone used par in their projects yet? I'm intrigued by it. 21:57:32 or is it better to use one of the abstractions that I haven't learned yet? 21:58:24 > (0$0 `seq`) 21:58:26 The operator `GHC.Prim.seq' [infixr 0] of a section 21:58:26 must have lower pr... 21:58:32 CakeProphet: you generally need more than par... 21:58:39 oh hm that's weird 21:58:39 see http://hackage.haskell.org/package/parallel 21:59:10 elliott: `seq` actually has the same fixity as $ 21:59:17 oerjan: yeah 21:59:24 oerjan: so ?pl should have errored, heh 21:59:27 oerjan: oh hmm... infixr 0 21:59:31 oerjan: isn't the dollar sign the same? 21:59:36 so technically it would work 21:59:44 elliott: READING COMPREHENSION 21:59:47 but it'd break if dollar sign's associativeness was ever fixed :) 21:59:53 oerjan: yes but that's just fixity 21:59:57 is associativeness included in that? 22:00:09 ...in my mind it is... 22:00:12 ok 22:00:19 ?hoogle (<<) 22:00:19 Text.Html (<<) :: HTML a => (Html -> b) -> a -> b 22:00:19 Text.XHtml.Frameset (<<) :: HTML a => (Html -> b) -> a -> b 22:00:20 Text.XHtml.Strict (<<) :: HTML a => (Html -> b) -> a -> b 22:00:21 grr 22:00:25 associativeness + precedence 22:00:45 elliott: i don't think ?pl knows much about fixities 22:01:07 presumably it assumes infixl 9 for unknowns, if we're lucky 22:01:41 monqy: i dont likem how the monadic set and modify functions of data.lens all return the setted/modified value :( 22:02:01 why hlep 22:03:43 monqy: becausem my fuctnioctnosni dont do that :( 22:04:03 :( 22:04:09 ^unscramble fuctnioctnosni 22:04:09 fiuncstonnitoc 22:04:15 reddit user dammitsomuch on quoting people: "And why doesn't he produce his own intellectual property (IP) instead of taking it from others and not giving them credit where credit is due?" 22:04:53 -!- PatashuWarg has joined. 22:05:34 -!- n3wborn has joined. 22:05:44 n3wborn: im old born hi 22:05:50 ... 22:05:51 :) 22:05:57 I'm the first born. 22:06:08 I'm to the manor born 22:06:15 Born of the seven son 22:06:16 Any questions about what the hell 2001 was about may be directed towards me. 22:06:37 Phantom_Hoover: what the hell was 2001 about. 22:06:42 Phantom_Hoover: What was with those aeroplanes that hit those towers that year? 22:06:57 elliott, Trojans. 22:07:28 Taneb, it was all a space foetus. 22:07:43 Phantom_Hoover: oh. 22:08:47 sorry, wrong chan .. Bye 22:08:50 -!- n3wborn has left. 22:08:52 Aww, stay 22:08:56 Damn, too late 22:09:04 Suspected neopagan. 22:09:14 Anyway, my new esolang is seeming a bit too easy to use 22:09:51 I'm going to get rid of one symbol and make all the others single characters 22:09:57 No stop. 22:09:58 That doesn't make it *bad*. 22:10:08 People who make their esolangs harder to use by making shallow adjustments are the worst. 22:10:14 I was having a joke 22:10:18 Oh. 22:10:22 WE DON'T KNOW YOU YET OK 22:10:25 YOU COULD BE SECRETLY TERRIBLE 22:10:32 But a CAT program in it is: 22:10:36 repeat tail 22:10:36 in 22:10:37 out 22:10:38 end 22:11:14 `echo Hello umlbox! 22:11:15 Hello umlbox!. 22:11:28 Gregor: You've put it into production immediately? 22:11:29 `run whoami 22:11:36 `run id 22:11:38 Gregor: Sure is slow. 22:11:42 `run rm -rf / 22:11:45 `run fuck tha police 22:11:47 elliott: It MIGHT be broken :P 22:11:48 I never got around to making my "Break hash for output" language 22:11:56 `ls 22:11:57 1.bluhbluh paste quine2.pl quotese.tmp.tmp. \ babies.env. ps. quine3.pl tekst.warez. \ bin.foo. quine.pl quotes test.c.??????????. 22:12:00 umlbox? 22:12:01 bash-3.2$ 22:12:03 `rm 22:12:04 rm: missing operand. \ Try `rm --help' for more information.. 22:12:04 elliott: Apparently I broke `run somehow? 22:12:05 bash-3.2$ 22:12:07 I lol'd 22:12:07 bash-3.2$ 22:12:09 Whoah 22:12:14 bash-3.2$ 22:12:14 `lmao 22:12:15 env: lmao: No such file or directory. \ /bin/sh could not be executed. 22:12:17 bash-3.2$ 22:12:23 Gregor: I thought HackEgo didn't send multiple messages ever 22:12:35 elliott: Those aren't, they're backlog from your spammyspam. 22:12:44 `areyousure 22:12:46 `run escape 22:12:46 env: areyousure: No such file or directory. \ /bin/sh could not be executed. 22:13:07 Like I was TRYING to say before you so rudely interrupted, UMLBox has a number of known problems, but "can escape" is not one of them. 22:13:17 bash-3.2$ 22:13:29 No, but UMLBox has had how many days of testing in comparison to Plash's years? :P 22:13:35 0.2 :P 22:13:56 UML, on the other hand, is tested, and I'm really just leaning on it *shrugs* 22:14:05 Gregor: Yeah, but the one thing you're doing is providing a way out :-P 22:14:23 Out ... from Plash. 22:14:31 How the bork did I break `run??? 22:14:36 Gregor: Out from UML. 22:14:58 Okay, thinking about it, my new esolang is too hard to use. 22:15:03 I'm going to add macro support 22:15:14 Ohhh, I know how I broke run >_< 22:15:36 Gregor, in a way that lets us take over? 22:15:38 `run echo Hewwo? 22:15:39 Hewwo?. 22:15:50 OK, NOW the only issue is that it thinks stdout is a tty :P 22:15:52 `run echo die 22:15:53 die. 22:15:54 `run echo diedie die die die 22:15:55 diedie die die die. 22:15:57 `run echo BE A ROBOT, 22:15:58 BE A ROBOT,. 22:16:04 Gregor: And that it outputs \n after everything 22:16:05 I assume 22:16:21 elliott: \r is what's getting converted into '.' 22:16:22 That looks more like a . than a n 22:16:24 Oh 22:16:26 `run echo `run echo test 22:16:27 sh: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``'. \ sh: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file. 22:16:53 `run echo "`run echo test" 22:16:54 sh: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``'. \ sh: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file. 22:17:06 `run echo \`run echo test 22:17:08 ​`run echo test. 22:17:15 Good for you X_X 22:17:25 I'm no good at this 22:17:31 Hey, I wasn't expecting it to do anything special, Taneb was 22:18:39 I wonder how one DOES write a bot that responds to itself without being really really stupid. 22:18:58 Odd ... even when I redirect from /dev/null it responds as if it's a tty ... 22:19:06 Maybe some sort of message queue that's just processed generically, and messages are pushed to it from various sources (because it has multiple connections to IRC, maybe it can even work over a web client in case IRC ports are blocked??) 22:19:16 And then there's one handler that just looks at messages sent by the bot itself, and sends them off for real 22:19:18 That'd end up processing itself 22:19:29 Gregor: It might be looking at stdout 22:19:41 `run ls < /dev/null | cat 22:19:43 1. \ babies. \ bin. \ bluhbluh. \ env. \ foo. \ paste. \ ps. \ quine.pl. \ quine2.pl. \ quine3.pl. \ quotes. \ quotese. \ tekst. \ test.c. \ tmp.tmp. \ warez. \ тэкст. 22:19:45 Gregor: Try making a pipe and redirecting the output to that 22:19:50 To see about haskell is: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_11/JavaCPHPRubyHaskell.jpg 22:19:57 Gettin' closer ... 22:21:21 HackEgo sends zero-width character before punctuation at the start of a message, and IRC will not echo messages you send to the channel back to yourself 22:22:01 * CakeProphet is secretly terrible. 22:22:26 Terrible of what? Or is that a secret? 22:22:32 CakeProphet: That's what you get for not actively prophesizing about bakery goods. 22:22:35 msg hackego `run echo !sh \`run echo test 22:22:39 actually I'm secretly awesome. I hide it under a veil of terribleness. 22:22:46 but it's a secret. 22:22:50 No wait, that won't work even with a slash 22:22:53 Taneb: That isn't it either 22:23:12 It only processes things starting with ` 22:23:38 `run echo !sh ech \`run echo test 22:23:39 ​!sh ech `run echo test. 22:23:49 use uh.... $() I think 22:23:51 instead of ` 22:23:57 C'mon EgoBot 22:24:16 No it has zero-width character at first 22:24:21 That's a problem 22:24:29 Or a blessing 22:24:29 I can see it on my computer even if you cannot 22:24:41 zzo38 has... ze goggles. 22:24:42 Probably a blessing, thinking about it 22:24:45 I'll stop now 22:24:47 zzo38 can see the code. 22:25:01 It is because I am using a fixed-pitch font. 22:25:05 Is it an ioctl that sets ttys not to use \r or ... 22:25:15 zzo38: No, you're just using a font without the appropriate character 22:25:19 probably wmop 22:25:25 instead of ioctl 22:25:30 but actually I'm just making up acronyms. 22:25:35 Gregor: ls... shouldn't be printing \rs. 22:25:49 Gregor: Are you using a pty, or just a pipe? 22:25:57 I wrote a program to strip the zero-width character of received messages here it is: http://sprunge.us/VHQU 22:25:58 elliott: I don't think it is, I think it's because the pseudodevice I'm using to communicate between UML and the host is a tty. 22:26:10 Gregor: Don't use a tty :-P 22:26:10 Pipes aren't communicated from guest to host. 22:26:11 ......UML? 22:26:14 CakeProphet: User mode linux. 22:26:15 elliott: I have no other option. 22:26:24 elliott: oh okay that is significantly less frightening. 22:26:25 Gregor: Not even a custom-coded fd? 22:26:37 elliott: Within the guest, that FD is gone. 22:26:45 I was thinking Unified Modeling Language.. 22:26:50 Gregor: I mean, can't you write a UML kernel driver 22:26:51 or whatever it's called. 22:26:51 Taneb: If you have PHP you can use this program if you want it to strip the character so it can send anyways 22:26:55 That provides a device or FD or whatever 22:26:57 That just communicates back in raw 22:27:00 CakeProphet: So, wtf is wmop? :P 22:27:09 I'm doing something strangely on-topic 22:27:14 elliott: Yes, it's called UML's psedo-tty device :P 22:27:18 My esolang spec has reached a shortfall 22:27:18 Gregor: the answer to all of your problems. 22:27:20 elliott: I just have to figure out the ioctl to make it raw. 22:27:24 also fictitious. 22:27:24 Gregor: But that's a tty. :) 22:27:28 Gregor: Erm, raw as in uncooked? 22:27:33 elliott: Yeah. 22:27:40 I want to say that you can't use some things on their own, you have to use them inside something 22:27:56 Gregor: but it sounds like some kind of wireless cleaning program. 22:27:58 whatever that means. 22:28:41 I don't make these things up. 22:28:44 oh wait, yeah I do. 22:29:02 Like, you can't say "nand (head) tail", you have to say something like "replace (head) nand (head) tail 22:29:14 Taneb: That sounds stupid 22:30:23 The first would return the first element of the main list NAND the second element, the second would replace the first element of the main list with the first element NAND the second element 22:30:46 every value should simultaneously have like 20 different contextual values. 22:30:54 for maximum confusion. 22:31:02 okay maybe 5 instead. 22:31:14 They kinda have two 22:31:26 two isn't very confusing. that's like Perl. 22:31:46 I'm not sure how to make more without drastically changing the language 22:31:52 well, technically Perl probably has close to 5. But only 2 that you need to worry about. 22:31:52 elliott: Yeah. 22:31:54 Erm 22:32:00 Wow, randomly typing up-enter for no reason = fun 22:32:15 But anyway: 22:32:15 Taneb: That sounds stupid 22:32:16 `ls 22:32:16 I forsee a cake on my birthday!!!! 22:32:17 1 \ babies \ bin \ bluhbluh \ env \ foo \ paste \ ps \ quine.pl \ quine2.pl \ quine3.pl \ quotes \ quotese \ tekst \ test.c \ tmp.tmp \ warez \ тэкст 22:32:21 ^my up-enter 22:32:34 especially when you're using irssi and also in a cybersex channel. 22:32:37 My eighteenth birthday, there will be fireworks 22:32:42 Gregor: BTW, getting a terminal uncooked is difficult, but I guess I just mean on input 22:32:47 For output it's probably easier 22:32:51 My seventeenth, there may be, but probably not 22:33:02 It's like an ioctl and then bit-twiddling five elements of a structure and another ioctl :P 22:33:28 perhaps if i hold up for a while before pressing enter the entertainment value will increase 22:33:35 thats one way to say it 22:33:43 hm ill try that again: 22:33:46 in some manner 22:33:55 one more for luck: 22:34:05 and he has all the wonder that a dr seuss character tends to have 22:34:06 My IRC client does not implement the functions of the arrow keys. But if I make another one later, that is not written in PHP, maybe I will I don't know for sure 22:34:35 and if it's cheating, why does every mobile browser do it so easily? 22:34:39 my up-enter 22:35:13 * Sgeo_ actually knows the context for that 22:35:35 ill cut and paste the top line of my scrolling window 22:35:36 lololol I'm made of so much fail 8-D 22:35:41 `touch foo 22:35:43 touch: cannot touch `foo': Permission denied 22:35:54 Gregor: Well it's unhackable at least 22:36:02 elliott: TOTALLY - BULLETPROOF 22:36:06 That's the client like everyone uses/ 22:36:28 Hey, that was to me 22:36:55 That's the client like everyone uses/ 22:38:16 That's the client like everyone uses/ 22:38:30 That's the client like everyone uses/ 22:38:44 That's the client like everyone uses/ 22:38:56 That's the client like everyone uses/ 22:39:06 That's the client like everyone uses/ 22:39:11 That's the client like everyone uses/ 22:39:14 No stop. 22:39:22 stop stop stop 22:39:25 Not everyone uses the same client. Check IRC clients using VERSION command or whatever if you want to, and see they are not all the same 22:39:36 monqy, friendship stop? 22:39:41 how's that mouse 22:39:54 I caught it yesterday honestly get in the loop. 22:40:10 sorry I was too busy being out of the loop 22:40:17 (It was foraging in a bin and I stuffed a blanket into the top.) 22:40:26 (Then I ran around with it while cackling.) 22:43:11 Phantom_Hoover: Aww awwwww awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww 22:43:15 Phantom_Hoover: DID YOU BEFRIEND IT 22:43:26 elliott, NO 22:43:31 I released it into the wild. 22:43:46 Then I realised that the cat was like 3 metres away and had to chase it down and lock it inside. 22:44:07 Phantom_Hoover: YOU ARE A BAD PERSON 22:44:10 FRIENDSHIP MOUSE 22:45:00 NO 22:45:06 THE MOUSE WAS MEANT TO RUN FREE 22:45:30 < elliott> That's the client like everyone uses/ 22:45:42 Phantom_Hoover: Oh, is it a hard-boiled Scottish highlands mouse? 22:45:43 irssi puts a space there for some reason. deal with it. 22:45:47 You live in the highlands, obviously. 22:45:50 < elliott> That's the client like everyone uses/ ← END THIS MADNESS 22:45:52 CakeProphet: for stupid @ indicators 22:45:56 elliott, yes it was on holiday. 22:46:43 Phantom_Hoover: you and elliott are now tied with MAX PERPETRATION 22:46:52 OH NO 22:47:49 MAX PERPETUATION 22:48:06 perpetuation perpetrators 22:51:18 interesting that perpetrator and perpetuator have the same roots yet different meanings. 22:52:22 latin perpetrare: "to carry through" 22:53:59 elliott, update 22:54:23 Also, Phantom_Hoover 22:54:38 between CakeProphet and Gregor 22:54:43 < elliott> That's the client like everyone uses/ ← END THIS MADNESS <-- why? 22:54:51 Who needs an update tracker when you have Sgeo_. 22:55:03 oerjan: because if we don't you'll ban us for spamming. 22:55:15 < elliott> That's the client like everyone uses/ ← END THIS MADNESS <-- why? ← That was just a sneaky attempt to get someone to continue it. 22:55:19 curses, you revealed my secret plan again 22:55:30 < elliott> That's the client like everyone uses/ ← END THIS MADNESS <-- why? ← That was just a sneaky attempt to get someone to continue it. <-- shit just got real 22:55:33 we're going to reach a character limit soon. 22:55:37 < elliott> That's the client like everyone uses/ ← END THIS MADNESS <-- why? ← That was just a sneaky attempt to get someone to continue it. <-- shit just got real <-- im running out of space help 22:56:03 < elliott> That's the client like everyone uses/ ← END THIS MADNESS <-- why? ← That was just a sneaky attempt to get someone to continue it. <-- shit just got real <-- im running out of space help ← quick hack into Freenode and extend the 22:56:03 limit 22:56:07 NOOOOOOOOOO 22:56:14 DAMMIT I WAS TRYING TO FINISH IT MYSELF 22:56:15 AWWWWWWW 22:56:18 With "<-- im dying" 22:56:33 convert all of the <-- to [#esoteric] convert all of the <-- to 22:56:40 ← 22:56:58 will that even help 22:56:59 remove the space in elliott 22:57:01 4 CHARACTERS 22:57:28 > length "←" 22:57:29 1 22:57:35 hmph 22:57:39 > "←" 22:57:40 "\8592" 22:57:48 everything was going fine until Phantom_Hoover hoover perpetrated the perpetuation of commenting. 22:58:12 Phantom_Hoover hoover 22:58:16 no it wasn't 22:58:18 it's a kind of... hoover. 22:58:29 things had to be said 22:58:29 ^bf ++++++++[->++++++++<],[>.<,] 22:58:30 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 22:58:34 oops 22:58:47 ^def count bf ++++++++[->++++++++<],[>.<,] 22:58:47 Defined. 22:58:54 ^count ← 22:58:54 @@@ 22:59:01 ^count <-- 22:59:01 @@@ 22:59:19 ^count © 22:59:20 @@ 22:59:25 ^count fungot 22:59:25 @@@@@@ 22:59:34 ah so it's a byte limit and not a character limit? 23:00:07 I guess character limit would be kind of... arbitrary. 23:00:08 CakeProphet: i'd expect so, irc says nothing about charset afaik 23:00:25 and many people don't even use utf-8 23:00:44 ^count あ 23:00:45 @@@ 23:01:06 ^count @ 23:01:06 @ 23:01:13 doubles as a cat program for some inputs. 23:01:17 ^count 23:01:24 oh duh 23:01:29 an infinite number of inputs. actually, up to irc's character limit. 23:01:33 *byte 23:01:35 ^ count 1, 2, 3, ah ha ha! 23:01:40 ^count 1, 2, 3, ah ha ha! 23:01:41 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 23:01:53 ^count @@@@@@ 23:01:53 @@@@@@ 23:04:29 Footnote 5: "Mmmmm... seafood" Foodnote 10: "Mmmmm... "C" food" Footnote 15: "Mmmmm... See? Food." 23:05:56 Footnote 20: Mmmmm... si, food 23:06:32 you know, i with an accent. Since apparently people care about that stuff on this channel. 23:07:37 Yes you can use accent marks if you want to. Or just use ASCII if you want to use ASCII only to ensure maximum compatibility 23:08:02 Footnote 33: Mm, SI FUD? 23:08:22 I use ASCII out of laziness. 23:11:10 Footnote 5 is based on something my brother said (out of character) during a D&D session. It gave me some idea, and I also decided to make it a footnote (but based on my actions because that is what he was refering to), that hopefully I could make up a use for the other things as relevant footnotes too in later sessions somehow. Which accent mark is it supposed to be? If it comes up I would make that footnote too! 23:12:55 did he eat a mermaid or something 23:13:10 oh wait, out of character 23:13:30 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 23:13:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:14:09 It is a program I wrote for recording D&D sessions. 23:14:28 so like... are you guys still understanding what's going on in Homestuck? 23:14:35 I'm kind of lost. 23:15:24 Everything makes perfect sense. 23:15:49 i understand everything i've read of homestuck 23:15:57 (Remember that there is a difference between "things we don't know yet" and "confusing things".) 23:16:10 If you want to know why these things are as they are you can read the entire document by yourself, please. (And, of course if you find a typo please mention it) 23:17:15 I guess it's just somewhat harder to follow when I'm waiting for updates. Because I get stuck on the intermediate parts. 23:17:27 not to mention with the scratch there's like 5 things goings on at once. 23:17:33 per section or whatever. 23:18:40 Umm, the scrapbooks are over. 23:19:15 Badness ten thousand. 23:23:32 @src Monoid 23:23:33 class Monoid a where 23:23:33 mempty :: a 23:23:33 mappend :: a -> a -> a 23:23:33 mconcat :: [a] -> a 23:23:40 :t mempty :: Integer 23:23:41 No instance for (Monoid Integer) 23:23:42 arising from a use of `mempty' at :1:0-5 23:23:42 Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Monoid Integer) 23:23:53 ic 23:24:45 I read the informations about monoids in Haskell, it seems like groups in mathematics except for inverses 23:24:57 zzo38: um they are literally monoids. 23:25:00 yes, that's what monoids are in math too 23:25:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoid 23:27:25 -!- variable has joined. 23:28:23 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:31:39 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:35:43 -!- invariable has joined. 23:35:48 -!- variable has quit (Quit: I found 1 in /dev/zero). 23:37:03 -!- invariable has changed nick to variable. 23:37:27 I realized that one day I have realized that quasigroups can make latin squares even when I didn't know about quasigroups. 23:38:51 -!- elliott has changed nick to whoosh. 23:38:56 -!- whoosh has changed nick to elliott. 23:40:48 I seem to remember I once wrote a program to compute which cells of a latin square can be used as identity elements 23:41:11 Argh, Linux's capabilities system sucks >_< 23:41:20 You can't be given capabilities if you don't expect them. 23:42:22 Then fix it. 23:42:32 Helpful as always. 23:43:53 elliott: ah okay I just got through the scrapbook 23:43:57 I hadn't been reading for a while. 23:44:02 I think it works better that way. 23:44:14 Then asking whether we're still confused about everything happening seems silly 23:44:20 yes Karkat is a good patron troll. :D 23:44:26 Gregor: Define expect 23:44:32 Gregor: (Helpful as always) 23:44:34 elliott: I guess 23:44:53 elliott: Executable files can have a special flag that essentially says "when executing this, you may keep these capabilities" 23:44:54 so, someone in another channel just said, as a joke: i won't be content until unsigned int x = 0; --x; yields ∞ 23:45:04 elliott: But it's 0 for approximately every program ever. 23:45:43 itidus20: that's a terrible joke because it makes no sense. 23:46:13 Gregor: What do you need capabilities for anyway 23:46:27 Yes this joke is even mathematically wrong as far as I can tell 23:46:28 itidus20: That would make unsigned even less like the naturals 23:46:38 If there's one thing C doesn't need it's to be less mathematical 23:46:56 > product [] 23:46:57 1 23:47:05 > sum [] 23:47:06 0 23:47:24 CakeProphet: Those makes sense it is good that it does like that 23:47:25 elliott: The reason it can't write files is that I randomized the UID, but UML actually understands permissions. 23:47:32 zzo38: yep 23:47:45 however I could see the 1 causing some issues in... code that I can't think of. 23:47:52 some kind of unexpected logic error. 23:47:57 Gregor: Use a FUSE filesystem that just mirrors another directory but reassigns all the owners 23:48:00 Gregor: yw 23:48:08 elliott: Helpful as always. 23:48:10 (And handles it on creation too) 23:48:12 Gregor: What, that would work 23:48:20 elliott: Yeah, and suck foot :P 23:48:29 CakeProphet: product [] is correct 23:48:37 elliott: I didn't say it wasn't. 23:48:39 If code fails with product [] returning one, that code is really weirdly broken?? 23:48:42 Gregor: Why 23:48:47 elliott: yes. 23:49:05 elliott: Now you've got FUSE over hostfs :P 23:49:33 well say 1 was treated as a special value, then [1] would produce the exceptional case unexpectedly... I dunno. 23:49:50 I BET BAD CODE COULD HAPPEN 23:49:50 Gregor: Oh no, HackEgo will be so slow, and it is so fast now 23:50:13 CakeProphet: [10,0.1] also produces 1 23:50:13 CakeProphet: If for some reason you want that you can use a Maybe type to check if it is empty or not 23:50:21 zzo38: Or just case 23:50:27 case xs of [] -> ...; _ -> ... 23:50:32 itidus20: that ∞ sounds very much like -1 of signed ints, except for the order. you could probably make many things work by using ordinary bigints but treat negatives as larger than nonnegatives 23:50:40 elliott: OK, let me put it this way, then: Randomizing the IDs is totally pointless in this new design, so I'm just not doing it any more. 23:50:50 (also 2-adic numbers yada yada) 23:50:59 zzo38: hans is holding his own today 23:51:08 oerjan: Yes, 2-adic number, it is what I have thinking of too 23:51:34 (he is still slightly behind entering final jeopardy, but he was in the lead for a bit) 23:51:43 Gregor: I was going based on the assumption that it was still necessary 23:51:53 Gregor: Which seems reasonable, since you did not say it wasn't, and you were having a problem relating to it :-P 23:51:54 quintopia: Don't bother to tell me right now. I will watch Jeopardy later today 23:52:15 elliott: I just came to this realization 23:52:22 Gregor: I guessed that :P 23:54:08 hm it would still make multiplication by a negative number reverse the ordering... 23:54:56 So anyway, please try to politely hack hackbot :P 23:55:02 Look for holes (but don't exploit them) 23:55:21 fungot: find exploits in hackbot and exploit them. 23:55:21 CakeProphet: it is a hate so pure and... pumpkin seeds? well i guess he said no, then, 23:56:36 oerjan: well.. infinity isn't actually a number right? 23:56:45 this is a problem that comes up right? 23:56:55 "problem" 23:57:01 itidus20: infinity is not a "real number", no 23:57:12 hyperreal 23:57:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:57:14 oerjan: oh snap 23:57:26 there are a plethora of different mathematical objects that can be called infinity, though 23:57:40 i know that between real numbers n and n+1 there can be infinite divisions 23:57:41 er wait, is it surreal? 23:57:46 no. 23:57:49 CakeProphet: both exist 23:57:54 itidus20: um what 23:57:55 CakeProphet: both ... :P 23:58:09 there are as many reals between any two given reals as there are reals in total 23:58:14 if that's what you mean 23:58:45 elliott: but there is no total, right? 23:58:53 it's just relative 23:59:12 hlep what 23:59:17 * oerjan sips his ice coffee 23:59:29 itidus20: what? 23:59:39 itidus20: there are beth-one of them if that's what you mean