00:00:07 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 00:00:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:00:31 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 00:00:33 and 1 gets excluded from being a prime factor by the "> 1" bit 00:00:43 it fits very perfectly 00:00:46 yes 00:01:53 do mathematicians ever feel threatened by computers? is it like chess? 00:01:55 Many things work when 1 is not considered prime 00:02:15 Therefore 1 is not prime 00:02:36 if we just trust in 1 00:02:39 1 will become the greatest prime 00:03:21 itidus20: well eventually computers should reach human level intelligence, at which point _everyone_ might feel threatened. whether higher mathematics research falls long before that, remains to be seen. 00:03:47 * elliott blinks at oerjan displaying an opinion he didn't think oerjan held. 00:04:01 but at least humans have a reason to exist.. humans have the security of knowing they can die 00:04:12 itidus20: computers can die too 00:05:00 james cameron obviously felt threatened 00:05:26 the irony being his movie is rendered with computers 00:05:40 hmm 00:05:47 itidus20: what 00:05:56 terminator 2 00:06:29 on the one hand he issues a grave warning against computers.. and on the other hand he renders a lot of things with them 00:06:46 what's ironic about this 00:06:53 was Avatar rendered by terminators 00:07:02 elliott: well whether intelligence requires some "soul" component also remains to be seen, but even _so_ it might be achievable by computers unless there really is a carbon-based water solution bias in the universe for it 00:07:02 latent terminators 00:07:07 also: is Terminator intended as a serious warning 00:07:12 or an action flick 00:07:22 im pretty sure its a serious warning 00:07:24 (granted that media has effects whether it intends" to be serious commentary or not) 00:07:32 (but I doubt Cameron thinks skynet is about to happen) 00:07:49 well good night 00:07:50 its like... james cameron the real guy.. i think he meant it 00:07:54 i will brainstorm alot tomorrow 00:07:57 and posssibly in bed 00:08:04 oerjan: so, umm, do you think that neurons will fail if you replicate them in a computer? 00:08:17 Patashu: But that doesn't make 1 prime. What makes 1 not prime is mathematics; how much you trust is not relevant. 00:08:18 so.. to wikipedia 00:08:22 it is even possible that the soul component is so subtle that it manages to attach to a computer algorithm without scientists noticing... 00:08:32 I removed the assertion that Cameron is an atheist per WP:BLPCAT policy. 00:08:32 This is not a matter of opinion but of policy though I know wikipedia also frowns on editors slandering others. 00:08:32 --CatholicW (talk) 06:15, 21 April 2011 (UTC) 00:08:36 thakns catcholicw 00:08:39 -!- sllide has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:08:50 oerjan: It is a possible thing to think about philosophically, at least. 00:09:29 oerjan: oerjan: so, umm, do you think that neurons will fail if you replicate them in a computer? 00:09:30 elliott: i think my previous line indicates i do not assume that they _will_ fail 00:09:30 oerjan: what the books say buddha's view is, is that there are all these questions which we would go crazy trying to answer 00:09:45 oerjan: ok so what you are saying is, any emulation of a neuron will have the soul code? 00:09:58 oerjan: insert standard "how is this different to neurons just being neurons" argument 00:10:15 any emulation of a correctly assembled brain of neurons, perhaps 00:10:17 I don't think any emulation needs a "soul code", and I am not sure it can work anyways. 00:10:27 oerjan: ok, so you could possibly have a soulless neuron emulator? 00:10:33 However, the emulation is not necessarily perfect anyways possibly? 00:10:39 oerjan: and then if you (with Science(tm)) scanned someone's brain to gloop up all the neurons 00:10:41 But it is worth a try. 00:10:42 and plugged it into the former 00:10:44 it would not work? 00:10:51 despite being a correct simulator of a single, soulless neuron? 00:10:58 or would the soul be in the scanned neural net 00:11:04 elliott: ah but the soul may not actually be _part_ of the emulator, just something any suitable structure will attach to. 00:11:08 You would change things by measuring it in quantum mechanics so I think it might not work. 00:11:19 Well, it might work. 00:11:21 Just not perfectly. 00:11:22 oerjan: ok, so the soul is part of the _process_ of thinking? 00:11:34 is it possible or desirable to take the war out of animals and plants? 00:11:37 oerjan: it sounds to me like you're defining a soul to be indistinguishable from "consciousness" 00:11:42 i am imagining a form of dualism, but mediated via some information channel 00:11:45 i.e. the byproduct of thinking 00:11:46 the feeding and hunger out of animals and plants? 00:11:56 which brains are evolved to use 00:12:44 itidus20: Then you will be dead how can you eat? Unless, of course, you want to be dead. But if you want to be dead you can jump off a cliff into the navy ship where they will shoot you for target practice 00:12:46 but which might be achievable by any information system with sufficient I/O 00:12:55 and.. if we could take the war out of animals and plants thus creating mechanical living things, and the feeding and hunger and thirst out of animals and plants thus creating mechanical living things... 00:13:14 i wish i were a robot 00:13:16 would we not have a means to take the war and feeding and hunger and thirst directly out of animals and plants? 00:13:35 I think you would eventually run out of energy if you tried such things, no matter how hard you tried or how much energy you have. 00:14:16 by the "war" .. well... 00:14:25 i mean the fighting instincts from nature 00:14:35 Including people too? 00:14:38 the drive to survive and reproduce and evolve 00:14:44 without the drive to survive 00:14:46 what drive is left? 00:14:50 if there is no scarcity and no suffering 00:14:52 why strive? 00:14:54 you'll live anyway 00:15:09 You need to have the drive to be dead if you do not want to have the drive to be living. But it is up to your choice. 00:15:26 Your choice can be to not have any children. 00:15:36 also.... just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should 00:15:42 Or, to see how long you can survive while starving to death. 00:15:50 Patashu: standard anti-religious argument: you'd go clubbing people to death without god??? 00:15:52 just like you would tell a person who planned to burn down your city that they shouldn't do it even if they could 00:15:53 itidus20: Yes. 00:16:16 Patashu: possible argument against what you're saying: you'd stop doing shit just because scarcity is gone??? 00:16:44 elliott: eventually 00:16:48 if only due to genetic drift and the meme version of it 00:16:52 is it possible or desirable to take the war out of animals and plants? <-- huh i've about that, and my immediate reaction is that we should do it if possible 00:16:53 Patashu: so when are you eventually going to start clubbing people? 00:16:56 there's no 'upward pressure' 00:17:02 wow wow wow. 00:17:05 calm down 00:17:10 I'm uncalm? 00:17:12 oerjan: it doesn't work like that 00:17:15 :-D 00:17:27 of course 00:17:39 anyway, I still live under scarcity 00:17:39 i shouldn't accuse you of suggesting it does 00:17:52 Patashu: but not under god, unless I misunderstand your position 00:17:56 Patashu: anyway, in any reasonable such scenario evolution by natural selection would only take place if we wanted it to, and why would we? 00:18:16 oerjan: My immediate reaction is you should not do it if possible. Maybe instead you should do it if it is impossible. Now it is a scientific experiment instead. But be careful please! Don't do it. 00:18:20 the freedom for war is not very much different than the freedom for peace 00:18:31 i am not sure why.. but it seems to be so 00:18:55 elliot, the opposite of evolution by natural selection. evolution with NO natural selection = random drift 00:18:58 since there's no suffering 00:18:59 no one ever dies 00:19:04 take war away and you will want it back very soon 00:19:05 It is true; you shouldn't have a war too much, but sometimes they do anyways. So, what can you do? Well, that is very complicated and is why they have the army. But even the army doesn't quite know. 00:19:07 and so negative traits are never punished (because they aren't negative now) 00:19:15 it will be missed 00:19:16 Patashu: there is no need for any sort of breeding to happen. 00:19:23 genetics are irrelevant 00:19:28 how will you stop people who want to breed? 00:19:46 presumably not. people might not want to breed if they understand this, however. 00:20:04 and if there's no scarcity, then we can support a zombie population who don't want to do anything just fine, along with a population of people who do want to do things 00:20:13 If nobody is dead, then if everyone is born then there is overpopulation. If nobody is dead or born, then you still need other things too otherwise what can come of anything? You need change of everything all the time at infinite speed of changing......... 00:20:45 It should be the job of mortals to eat the immortals. 00:20:53 the purpose of the human body, mind, personality, quirks etc is to best cope with survival in the environment they evolved in 00:21:01 what does it mean to take all that and place it in a zero scarsity environment? 00:21:06 oerjan: it doesn't work like that <-- how do you know it is not possible to end suffering for all lifeforms on earth, at least for a very long time? it would obviously require a huge redesign of species and ecosystems, and may be beyond our means for centuries or millennia, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it if we do become able 00:21:29 Patashu: It means, you have to make a very small part to make a scientific experiment. 00:22:25 Patashu: you think we are controlled entirely by our genetics, etc.? 00:22:31 you can imagine a person playing a game with savestates - with no penalty for death, they make no effort to improve or think through puzzles except by blindly throwing themslves at them 00:22:34 elliot it's always going to be there 00:22:40 it'll always be the base of everything we build onto it 00:22:40 not to make personal actions of violence by you, but I guess you go around murdering people who anger you, then? 00:22:43 there HAS to be an initial drive 00:22:45 take war away and you will want it back very soon <-- if you can change organisms enough to "take war away" you can probably change their motivations to desire it that way too 00:22:57 humm 00:23:20 Patashu: if you think we can't overcome our base desires etc. ... lol. If you also think that whatever instincts we have even "understand" what lack of scarcity means... lol 00:23:23 the reason i mentioned it is that... in the quest to define a soul... we must remember we are on one side of the equation 00:23:54 whatever can be done to a computer to give it a soul, we can perhaps regress to without losing our soul 00:23:54 let me rephrase 00:23:56 "so, you see, we have this separate stupid brain that overrides everything we do past a certain point, and acts idiotically about a lack of scarcity. BUT it understands what a lack of scarcity is, despite being the stupidest thing." 00:24:00 imagine a perfectly rational being who can't suffer 00:24:11 the typical disembodied observor with free will and omniscience, right? 00:24:12 "Just skip to Act 3. That's when the crazy shit starts going down. 00:24:12 Also, skip Hivebent." 00:24:13 Actually game with savestates, not quite. Because, some people can still try to think about it better. However, if you cannot think of it, you might try something without knowing or just stop and think about it and try again tomorrow. 00:24:15 what is its drive? 00:24:27 Patashu: you're imagining it, you tell me 00:24:37 okay. there is no drive 00:24:40 no reason to do anything 00:24:43 ok. you arbitrarily decided that. 00:24:46 because there's no punishment or reward system in place 00:24:48 no, because of ^^ 00:24:51 no 00:24:52 elliott opens his mouth and we're down to social sciences. i sincerely prefer talking about pokemon, ais makes it sound infinitely more interesting. 00:24:54 you decided it would have no such system 00:25:01 Patashu: i heard uhmmm whats his name... alan watts explain that if a person did that.. they would gradually work their way back to exactly who they are now 00:25:09 that they would get terribly bored 00:25:12 itidus, if they did what? 00:25:16 cheater_: actually, oerjan started it this time. then Patashu. 00:25:16 cheater_: I know some things about pokemon, too. I also play Pokemon Card 00:25:21 if they had all the omniscience 00:25:35 zzo38, I'm thinking of raocow, who when he plays with save states all but stops trying to play well 00:25:36 "this time" is not relevant to the trend 00:25:42 so it's not going to be an absolute thing but it's a big factor 00:25:49 cheater_: you are the shittiest troll. 00:26:07 zzo38, please rescue this channel from misery and talk about pokemon right away 00:26:08 also chess 00:26:27 elliott: nothing bad about being shitty at trolling 00:26:27 Patashu: O, OK. Well, I generally don't play like that. 00:26:40 cheater_: Like, what about pokemon and chess? 00:26:49 cheater_: when your modus operandi is trolling there is 00:27:13 you're good at avoiding getting banned, but have you considered that this might be eating into your effectiveness as a troll? 00:27:37 cheater_: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T_FYsAkhAc&feature=player_detailpage#t=134s 00:28:01 Later on you can consider helping me with this https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/texnicard/wiki/Dangelo_Programming_Language if you know how, coppro was understanding a bit once I explained in this channel, and I wrote the stuff in there too, some of the things discussed, in "Examples" section. 00:28:03 zzo38, what about a game of chess where if a piece moves onto another one, then the players play a round of pokemon 00:28:26 the person who wins keeps their piece 00:28:37 cheater_: its chess related link 00:28:57 itidus20, interesting, let me have a look 00:28:58 cheater_: OK. I suppose that is possible, if you want to play like that. 00:29:55 Have you ever invented any pokemon card? 00:30:00 zzo38, do you think an amount of strategy could be added to chess this way? e.g. players start out with the same cards, except they play them or don't.. 00:30:06 no 00:30:28 cheater_: Possibly, have some of the cards and chess be correlated somehow 00:30:29 if i invented one it would be an elliott card, and when it levels up it changes into Sgeo 00:30:48 And what would be the effects of the card? 00:30:53 zzo38, i think maybe each piece could allow you to do more/less 00:31:03 cheater_: hmm, or actually you _have_ realised that, and are being much more obvious about things 00:31:38 and pokemon related here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2n5aSo32aw 00:31:57 say if your fighting piece is a pawn, you just get 1 card, if your piece is a laufer you get 3 or 4 cards.. 00:31:59 etc 00:32:07 cheater_: There are many ways. One way, have pieces affecting rules of cards somewhat and cards affecting chess, and have the kind of pieces being stepping on each other corresponding to what cards you have 00:32:21 but if your pawn is important to your strategy you might want to play a stronger card 00:32:30 ah, that would be interesting 00:32:39 how could the cards affect the chess? 00:32:55 go might be a better game than chess 00:32:59 easier to give marginal advantage in 00:33:06 whereas in chess things like capturing and getting an extra move are huge 00:33:18 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: bye). 00:35:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:36:12 hmm 00:36:16 ok heres an idea 00:36:25 Yes. Well, you could also use a larger chess variant, where the different pieces has energy types of pokemon card, and then the trainer cards, etc. I don't know for sure. 00:36:32 what about an RTS on a virtual chessboard? 00:36:38 what about it? 00:37:09 could starcraft be translated onto a virtual chessboard for example? 00:37:19 in what sense? 00:37:24 there are chess custom maps FOR starcraft 00:37:31 but somehow Idon't think that's what you mean 00:37:54 There are many chess variants, including Xiangqi and Shogi as well. 00:38:00 well, by virtual chessboard I mean that using a computer you can achieve certain tricks easily like having hidden squares 00:38:03 there are some very large chess variants 00:38:09 like a variant where every piece is a chessboard 00:38:18 Metachess? 00:38:20 and you make moves on the smaller chessboard to unlock that piece's ability to capture (if you win) 00:38:28 something like that 00:38:32 it was on chess variants dot org 00:38:32 wow... 00:39:15 so.. first you would have the starcraftian idea of only being able to see parts of the map which you build near 00:39:33 since starcraft is played on a square co-ordinate system 00:39:37 you could translate it to a very large chessboard 00:39:39 but it's just a semantic thing 00:39:44 you're not changing anything 00:40:05 well it could be turn based perhaps 00:40:10 could that work? :D 00:40:26 turn based RTS? 00:40:34 TBS 00:40:47 well without micro 00:40:49 i was wrong to say RTS.. because it would just be starcraft 00:40:50 you miss the point of starcraft 00:41:29 ok so.. 1) multiple pieces can move per turn 2) can only see parts of the map which your units are near 00:41:43 I mean 00:41:43 3) some units take a long time to go to an adjacent square 00:41:46 there are turn based games like that 00:41:48 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:42:06 you might have say.. "This unit is very heavy, it will take 5 turns to move to the adjacent square" 00:42:08 but you can't make a turn based game out of starcraft b/c you'll need to completely change the balance and all the mechanics that expect your reaction time/co-ordination ability to be limited 00:42:47 3) some units take a long time to go to an adjacent square <-- this + today's iwc gives me the idea of a board game where some pieces go backwards in time 00:43:16 i havent really played starcraft.. just watched my brother play it a bit 00:43:17 it's been done 00:43:18 we'll just need ais523 to implement feather and then we can find out how it works 00:43:34 oerjan, have you heard of the game achron? 00:43:42 archon 00:43:47 no 00:43:47 achron 00:43:50 oops 00:43:51 also 00:43:52 http://www.chessvariants.com/diffmove.dir/timetravel.html 00:43:53 achron 00:44:32 sorry to doubt you 00:44:41 http://www.achrongame.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=29&sid=b7f3fd8b0f925fba406e706736e156e6 00:45:15 in particular look at achronal chess and achronal roguelike 00:45:46 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErutMnueM2g Wow, this looks awesome lol 00:45:57 I bet there's a broken winning strategy though 00:47:52 like if you create that space filling diamond 00:47:53 gg 00:47:56 Build a spacefiller? 00:48:05 hm 00:57:49 -!- cheater_ has joined. 00:58:10 zzo38, what about cards simply disabling some pieces from attacking other pieces? many strategies would be disabled this way 00:58:17 while enabling others 00:58:27 hmm, that's good 00:58:29 it's a defensive boost 00:58:36 not really, also offensive 00:58:37 so you can't use it to win easily 00:58:38 unless you're craft 00:58:39 yeah 00:58:43 if a piece is untouchable it's a good weapon 00:58:45 could use it to make a push otherwise impossible 00:59:01 cheater_: as i grow up and get more cynical and bitter... i find i don't enjoy some games as much as i once did 00:59:09 however, 00:59:41 I suppose that the key element is that a game has room to allow someone to have fun if they are in the mood to have fun. 01:00:41 the game never actually contains the fun... the fun is always the player's responsibility 01:00:54 cheater_: Yes you could have a chess variant where some cards disable some pieces and stuff like that 01:01:12 itidus20, this story is heart-warming 01:01:27 I want power go 01:01:32 what special powers could stones have? 01:01:34 what's power go 01:01:37 idk yet 01:01:48 but you want it? ok. 01:01:53 cheater_: I used to love pokemon 01:01:59 me too 01:02:03 then I realized 01:02:05 'wow, this is a lot of work' 01:02:07 so I didn't play diamond 01:02:12 I was angry at a magazine when they made fun of pikachu on the cover 01:02:15 and now I am a young adult 01:02:45 we used to have a kid at school that we named pikachu 01:02:49 rofl 01:02:53 aww 01:02:58 we did so to make fun out of him 01:03:26 one of my best friends in high school got nicknamed screech like in saved by the bell 01:03:35 never seen that 01:03:38 what is it? 01:03:48 ah.. you must be a youngin 01:04:22 im australian.. you might just be european or something 01:04:24 iti++ 01:04:28 iti-- 01:04:40 but if you're american... then the only explanation is young age 01:05:11 don't get me wrong i love europe 01:05:56 or maybe i'm just someone who doesn't watch many movies, regardless of where i come from 01:08:53 sorry 01:08:57 im out of line 01:13:46 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:16:50 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 01:21:13 Patashu, that game of life thing is interesting. 01:21:56 You can take cells that are already out on the field and add them to your pool, leading to "how the hell do you have so many blocks aaa" 01:22:13 Things happening behind the front line are pretty much useless, sooo 01:26:07 Blinkers can do some serious damage if not interfered with 01:26:12 In stages. 01:27:18 -!- cheater_ has joined. 01:28:00 What game of life thing? 01:28:18 http://www.java4k.com/index.php?action=games&method=view&gid=190 01:28:34 I kinda want to try and code a multiplayer version now. 01:29:29 In chrome, when a flash widget has focus, hitting backspace acts like hitting the back button on chrome 01:29:31 is there a fix for this? 01:30:08 In Pokemon Card GB2, although HYPNO [Lv30]'s attack ignores weak/resist, the computer opponent doesn't know that! Yet, it does in fact ignore weak/resist. 01:31:19 itidus20: I wrote in /msg 01:32:08 Screech you can't elope! 01:32:17 Who are you calling a cantelope you melonhead? 01:32:22 oh my god 01:35:51 guys should i be rational or irrational today 01:36:11 elliott: Both. 01:36:25 ah 01:36:45 elliott: irrational but algebraic 01:36:54 Patashu, yeah, the size of spacefillers makes me think that you arn't going to be building a spacefiller anytime soon. 01:37:06 oerjan: hELP this is ocnfonsugin 01:37:13 :( 01:37:16 what if it was turn based? 01:37:26 18:38:33 < Sgeo> R.I.P. Sgeo? 01:37:29 good quote 01:37:40 ^unscramble ocnfonsugin 01:37:40 oncingfuosn 01:37:45 much better 01:38:04 http://www.mobileread.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=75336&d=1312936864 <-- I have turned my e-book reader into the world's worst tablet PC :P 01:38:07 ^unscramble geo 01:38:07 goe 01:38:13 ^unscramble sgeo 01:38:13 soge 01:38:18 ^unscramble sgeo 01:38:18 soge 01:38:27 it's deterministic 01:38:36 oerjan: and _I_ invented it 01:38:40 Patashu, that.. that might actually be a more fun variant. 01:38:44 Maybe. 01:38:47 true. 01:38:50 Gregor: Sorry that looks like the world's best?? 01:38:53 ^unscramble sgeotlhd 01:38:53 Gregor: How fast is it 01:38:53 sdghelot 01:38:54 X run cycles, then a placement cycle? 01:39:04 Gregor: Additionally cut your nails 01:39:07 elliott: The processor is fine ... the screen is ... slow :P 01:39:07 ^unscramble elliott 01:39:07 etltloi 01:39:17 ^unscramble Lambdans 01:39:17 Lsanmabd 01:39:19 ^scrable test 01:39:22 elliott: I don't cut my thumbnail, but I cut the rest. My cat appreciates it :P 01:39:32 ^unscramble test 01:39:33 ttes 01:39:40 Lymee: speling 01:39:49 ^scramble test 01:39:49 tste 01:40:01 ^scramble 0123456789 01:40:01 0246897531 01:40:05 ^scramble 01234567890 01:40:05 02468097531 01:40:22 Heh. 01:40:29 Lymee: it is simply: copy two, move cursor to middle 01:40:32 ^scramble 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 01:40:32 01234567 01:40:45 * elliott waits for oerjan to provide an elegant zipper implementation based on that description 01:40:46 elliott: but afair i wrote it in brainfuck 01:44:43 !haskell scramble = scr [] []; scr z1 z2 (x:y:r) = scr (x:z1) (y:z2) r; scr z1 z2 l = reverse z1 ++ l ++ z2 in scramble "0123456789" 01:44:47 oops 01:44:54 in the windows entertainment pack there's a two player game of life 01:44:55 > let scramble = scr [] []; scr z1 z2 (x:y:r) = scr (x:z1) (y:z2) r; scr z1 z2 l = reverse z1 ++ l ++ z2 in scramble "0123456789" 01:44:57 "0246897531" 01:44:58 some cells are blue some are red 01:45:04 on your turn you add a cell of your colour then delete a cell 01:45:06 and your opponent does the same 01:45:08 then one generation happens 01:45:16 the first person to have only their colour wins 01:45:23 elliott: ^ 01:46:22 oerjan: beautiful. however i see no zippers. 01:46:39 z1 and z2 are the zipper 01:46:53 admittedly i'm not using recursion to unwind it 01:47:29 also it's probably nicer without a true zipper 01:47:45 ok fine :D 01:48:04 > let scramble = scr []; scr z (x:y:r) = x : scr (y:z) r; scr z l = l ++ z in scramble "0123456789" 01:48:06 "0246897531" 02:03:45 zzo38: i found the http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Brainfuck#Brainfuck_in_ZZT discussion, and i wondered, is your nick related to ZZT? 02:05:36 wow it's really pouring down 02:05:54 silent here 02:06:13 IMPOSSIBLE, YOU'RE ENGLISH 02:18:12 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 02:18:28 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit). 02:18:39 Oh ffs XChat 02:34:30 -!- lament has joined. 02:36:13 oerjan: you would be the best person to ask about GHC memory details, right :D 02:36:57 er have i left that impression somehow 02:37:52 oerjan: definitely. 02:38:00 ok then 02:39:18 oerjan: in "data X = forall a. X { f :: IO a, g :: a -> IO (), h :: a -> IO Size }", it should be no bigger than the size of the pointers to the three functions f, g, and h (with the a type filled in), plus padding, right? 02:39:37 obviously with a typeclass context it would store the dictionary 02:40:01 or, hmm, that only works in one field... but anyway, i think i make sense? 02:40:06 sometmies i make sense. 02:42:10 there might be a tag field anyhow 02:42:24 even if there's just one possible value for it 02:42:24 oerjan: hmm well right that's fine 02:42:43 oerjan: more importantly, an Any is no bigger than a standard pointer, right? 02:42:49 (I EXPECT PRECISE ANSWERS, NO GUESSING) 02:43:34 i believe all boxed, lazy values have the same pointer size and _must_ have so in order to work with polymorphic functions 02:44:09 right 02:44:18 oerjan: so in conclusion... 02:44:26 test :: X -> Any -> IO Size 02:44:35 test X{..} = h . unsafeCoerce 02:45:08 should look the same, memory and operation (i.e. performance) wise, as an application of h to a specific specialisation of the a type variable, correct? 02:45:15 modulo a slightly bigger pointer, perhaps 02:45:32 basically the thing is that "f" and "g" might be called an awful lot 02:45:44 after all you can write test (X f g h) = do a <- f; (,) <$> g a <$> h a 02:45:59 I don't want to use a typeclass since the only sane way would be via an existential, which would carry around the typeclass baggage for every single a value 02:46:00 which is ridiculous 02:46:06 then I considered e.g. 02:46:18 data ReifyDict a where Dict :: (Class a) => ReifyDict a 02:46:21 and test can know nothing about any special representation for a 02:46:26 but that's just ridiculous since it reduces to a three-argument record 02:46:30 oerjan: ofc 02:46:48 er *<*> last one 02:50:25 oerjan: hmm, I just realised that my main question came down to "is unsafeCoerce expensive" :D 02:50:38 that seems ... unlikely :P 02:50:44 Sgeo: udpate 02:50:53 I saw, ty 02:51:01 Didn't read it yet, browser's being slow 03:07:18 -!- azaq231 has joined. 03:08:25 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:14:17 03:14:43 hi 03:15:02 oerjan: Is my nick related to ZZT? Sort of. There is actually a long story describing how the name "zzo38" came out 03:15:18 aha 03:15:18 as every good nick should have 03:15:45 zzo38: origins. 03:16:08 in the deep forests of canada... 03:16:57 But, yes, ZZT is part of it. 03:17:20 a geek must attempt to get connection using only a barbed wire and a pack of chewing gum 03:17:37 the wire happens to be electrified 03:18:34 a loud ZZOT is heard 03:18:35 not too far away from an enclave of conspiracy theorists who, as a result of being neighbours with USA for so long, were quite suspicious, up a tree watching down at some wild boars roaming past, sat a young zzo38 03:20:42 Though that was not yet his name... 03:20:47 hm boars are not native to the americas, but have been introduced 03:21:04 I don't know I just wanted to send some fun animals past 03:22:46 i admit that "a loud ZZOT is heard" is more creative than what I typed 03:23:01 I tried to use brute force to be creative 03:30:13 monqy how doe sflows work 03:30:22 whats flows hlep 03:31:55 monqy: i was trying to define a dataflow programming model where it was impossible to construct something that depended on the order that its inputs arrived 03:31:57 no no, how does a doe sflow its work 03:31:57 like 03:32:13 X__ 03:32:13 \ 03:32:13 Z 03:32:13 Y--/ 03:32:15 erm 03:32:20 X__ 03:32:20 \ 03:32:20 Z-- 03:32:20 Y--/ 03:32:28 you couldn't make Z output something different if Y arrived point one ms after X 03:32:41 the idea being that it's always safe to parallelise 03:32:51 because you can't observe time at the lowest level 03:32:52 but 03:32:55 then 03:33:02 i tried to model a simple mutable reference............... 03:33:04 and i couldn't.................... 03:33:18 it ended up depending on order to know whether it was being overriden by a constant (which you'd do to initialise it) 03:33:23 or... not overridden... 03:33:26 im 03:33:28 not really sure :( 03:33:30 help 03:33:32 im confused help 03:34:16 oerjan: help 03:34:26 eek 03:35:10 Actually I no longer think native c-based continuations are strictly essential for real input manipulation, I think it is possible to use continuation passing style and e to avoid them. --Ørjan 02:18, 10 August 2011 (UTC) 03:35:13 thank god oerjan updated us on that 03:35:17 ive been on the edge of my seat for four years 03:35:30 i _have_ mentioned it on the channel before 03:36:15 i just got the idea to reread Talk:Unlambda after i had read Talk:Brainfuck so i saw that conversation again 03:36:47 so i thought i'd leave an update 03:37:06 oerjan: so do you have any ideas on my dataflow question ;D; ;D ;D 03:37:10 no 03:37:11 hlep my eyes e re everywhere 03:37:15 hlaup 03:37:55 i donte evenm wknow why you'd need this dafatlow??? 03:38:13 nor how to make time-order matter help 03:38:17 HELP THE CHANNEL IS INVADED BY YOUTUBE SPELLERS 03:38:26 HLEP 03:39:00 monqy: datataafalow, i am trying to, think of, programming languages, that are esoteric, but also, because, parallelism is hard? 03:41:15 !haskell import Control.Parallel; main = do forkIO (putStr "dataflow"); forkIO (putStr "dataflow") 03:41:16 oh you want to make it impossible I missed the im ha-ha 03:41:28 which confused me 03:41:30 a lote????? 03:41:39 huh 03:41:58 monqy: the im?? 03:42:12 oerjan: forkio not in scope or some other error? 03:42:17 elliott: in im possible 03:42:22 monqy: oh 03:42:28 invalid syntax, no idea why 03:42:29 monqy: right...so.... i need.... hlep... probably from oerjan 03:42:36 oerjan: need {} around do body 03:42:39 trust me 03:42:41 im scientist 03:42:59 um that should _not_ be necessary 03:43:12 !haskell import Control.Parallel; main = do { forkIO (putStr "dataflow"); forkIO (putStr "dataflow") } 03:43:33 huh it helped 03:43:37 yep. 03:43:46 but why 03:43:47 now is it about forkio or what 03:43:51 oerjan: because the ; terminates the main definition 03:43:56 oerjan: because your _module_ is non-layout 03:44:02 so you need to denote nesting explicitly 03:44:09 just like you can't say "do do x; y; z" 03:44:13 um no it doesn't, do introduces layout 03:44:17 well maybe you can but it won't do what you want 03:44:27 oerjan: i am... pretty sure it does 03:44:32 :t do do x; y; z 03:44:32 oerjan: you cannot introduce layout inside a non-layout block, correct? 03:44:33 Couldn't match expected type `m a' against inferred type `Expr' 03:44:33 In a stmt of a 'do' expression: x 03:44:33 In the expression: 03:44:34 and this looks like 03:44:35 er 03:44:38 module Foo where { ... } 03:44:41 :t do do ?x; ?y; ?z 03:44:41 forall (m :: * -> *) a b a1. (Monad m, ?x::m a, ?y::m a1, ?z::m b) => m b 03:44:48 !haskell import Control.Parallel; main = do forkIO (putStr "dataflow"); unmain = forkIO (putStr "dataflow") 03:45:02 yep 03:45:04 no syntax error 03:45:04 whats the arror 03:45:05 elliott: well that's different. i had no further definitions after main 03:45:08 just a module error 03:45:15 Control.Concurrent right 03:45:17 oerjan: um i do not think haskell has an infinite-lookahea grammar in that sense 03:45:31 I have been waiting for whole minutes to guess that forkIO is in concurrent instead of parallell 03:46:04 elliott: it doesn't. you need { } if there is a ; _after_ the do block 03:47:01 hm 03:47:10 back 03:47:14 hi 03:47:15 !haskell import Control.Concurrent; main = do { forkIO (putStr "dataflow"); forkIO (putStr "dataflow") } 03:47:19 dadta 03:47:25 cute 03:47:25 heh 03:47:38 it is like a babbling baby 03:47:45 !haskell import Control.Concurrent; main = do { forkIO (putStr "dataflow"); forkIO (putStr "dataflow") } 03:47:46 oh 03:47:50 dat 03:47:57 !haskell import Control.Concurrent; main = do { forkIO (putStr "dataflow"); putStr "dataflow" } 03:48:02 dadtaatfalfolwo 03:48:17 wow 03:48:19 that's bad 03:48:20 the program ends before the forkIO runs out 03:48:29 nice 03:48:36 !haskell import Control.Concurrent; main = do { forkOS (putStr "dataflow"); putStr "dataflow" } 03:48:40 dadtaatfalfolwow 03:48:46 !haskell import Control.Concurrent; main = do forkIO (putStr "dataflow"); putStr "dataflow" 03:48:51 dadtaatfalfolwow 03:48:51 Can you do continuation passing in Haskell? 03:48:58 ooh that worked 03:49:26 oerjan: oh 03:49:27 fuck you :P 03:49:30 zzo38: manually write in continuation-passing style, use the Cont monad, others???? 03:49:33 zzo38: naturally. that's how the Cont monad works. 03:50:13 I didn't know the Cont monad thanks 03:51:42 oerjan: you cannot introduce layout inside a non-layout block, correct? <-- you most certainly can. also i sincerely doubt that !haskell puts any module where { } around stuff, so it should be layout anyway 03:52:29 ok fine :P 03:53:26 it's not infinite lookahead, it's just that the innermost block is greedy as long as possible 03:53:44 After "module ... where" I think you need neither layout nor { } it still works without that 03:53:49 i have no idea why i got a syntax error on the first attempt 03:54:29 zzo38: you don't need indentation, no, but it's still technically a block, just aligned at beginning of line 03:55:25 it's the layout of it which makes it possible to start new declarations at beginning of line without using ; 03:56:22 Yes, I suppose so. Would it be unambiguous even if you omitted the line breaks? 03:56:41 without line breaks, ; is required 03:57:25 and you might need some { } in inner blocks to ensure ;'s are applied at the right level 03:57:51 actually there are other reasons to use { } 03:58:14 * elliott never uses {} in real code 03:58:23 > do x <- [1,2]; [x,x] ++ [5] 03:58:25 [1,1,5,2,2,5] 03:58:29 Omegamega uses them exclusively though. also that spj paper about stablenames. 03:58:32 (ok spj+foo) 03:58:34 > do { x <- [1,2]; [x,x] } ++ [5] 03:58:35 [1,1,2,2,5] 03:58:43 those are different 03:58:46 What is Omegamega? 03:59:16 of course for do expressions you can use ordinary parentheses instead 03:59:28 > (do x <- [1,2]; [x,x] ) ++ [5] 03:59:29 [1,1,2,2,5] 03:59:30 zzo38: fax's joke name for Ωmega 03:59:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A9mega (gross conflation of language and implementation on this page) 03:59:52 http://code.google.com/p/omega/ 03:59:53 that's better 04:00:35 * elliott never uses {} in real code <-- yeah it's only for some bot one liners you need it 04:00:40 :D 04:02:09 But {} would probably be useful in "do" notation and such stuff like that, most commands that need layout, it would be useful to use with, I think. But I think in general not use "do" notation, I just prefer using other commands instead, I guess. 04:02:25 But sometimes I don't know very well, I still don't know a lot of stuff about Haskell 04:02:57 well do notation is only syntactic sugar, so a matter of taste 04:03:43 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 04:03:55 Yes, I know, the same things can be written with or without "do" 04:04:17 What are all the commands in Haskell that use layout? 04:04:57 case ... of ..., ... where ..., let ..., do ... 04:05:23 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:05:58 mdo ... (deprecated) and possibly rec ... (it's replacement) from the monad recursion extensions 04:06:12 oh and proc ... for arrows, i think 04:06:21 maybe others i haven't heard of 04:06:33 only the first line is without extensions 04:07:09 basically the report says that blocks are introduced by the of, where, let and do keywords 04:07:39 *its replacement 04:09:27 The license for Omega is different in the page linked from Wikipedia and in the repository in Google Code. But clearly the page linked on Wikipedia links to the older license from 2005 04:09:46 Also, Wikipedia says "License: Copyrighted" which is too vague 04:10:53 But now I corrected it 04:13:00 I have just once, for a single purpose, used a window transparency program. This slowed down the program a lot but still helped. Do you know what purpose this is? 04:13:10 oerjan: help how do i mutable reference in my dataflow 04:19:01 dunno 04:19:06 :( 04:19:21 such badness 04:19:55 hm how can this order independence even work 04:20:03 say you implement a xor gate 04:20:17 and the inputs change from 00 to 11 04:20:32 oerjan: note that the _value_ of a signal and whether it is _sending_ or not differ 04:20:51 how do you know whether output should stay 0 or be temporary 1 in between 04:21:15 oerjan: that just means you cannot do a XOR gate (but this doesn't mean you can't do a _logical_ xor gate) 04:21:35 basically, the primitive gate operations are like "forward N inputs to N outputs if all of them are sending, otherwise forward none" 04:21:56 (I think it is OK to have an order dependence on _ceasing_ to send) 04:22:05 ah 04:22:28 (but if not, then it can then simply be defined to e.g. keep forwarding them until _no_ inputs are on) 04:22:32 (that introduces state, though) 04:22:34 (which is nasty) 04:22:59 oerjan: I'm not sure these primitives are useful, but... obviously you can do anything "purely functional" with them 04:23:04 because they don't care about synchronisation or anything 04:23:14 you just wire up the expression tree 04:23:39 the idea is that you'd be able to look at a circuit and _avoid computing_ certain things because the things they're plugged into aren't interested in them 04:23:49 i.e. starting to send a signal would not change the rest of the circuit 04:24:01 and I think without that you'd end up computing a bunch of things you don't need all the time?? 04:24:03 I'm really not sure 04:24:19 but basically I cannot figure out how to construct a simple mutable reference where you can get the value out of it as a signal and then modify that value 04:24:51 hmm 04:24:53 oerjan: well by construct 04:24:54 I mean as a primitive 04:24:59 but it has to follow the laws 04:25:30 food -> 04:25:52 hmmmmmmmm 04:25:55 how about this... 04:26:09 it has two inputs, O and V 04:26:52 when O is on, it lies dormant until V is sending, then reads the value it's receiving, repeatedly, and forwards it on 04:27:01 i.e., if O is on, it's a simple identity gate 04:27:18 but if O is _off_, then it stores the value it's currently sending internally 04:27:20 and starts ignoring V 04:27:23 and just sending off that constant value 04:27:34 (or not-sending-at-all, if that's what it was doing when O was on) 04:27:41 the question is, does this violate the ordering rule wrt O and V 04:27:58 I think it might, because if V's value changes from X to Y in zero point one ms 04:28:05 and O takes between zero point one and zero point two ms to change 04:28:12 or whatever 04:28:19 then whichever arrives first changes the value it's sendinh 04:28:20 sending 04:28:21 hmm 04:28:35 I feel this might be an innate problem; I think what I'm trying to do is guarantee that there are no timing issues 04:28:45 and the only way to do that by totally forbidding any knowledge of time is to forbid state from changing 04:28:54 except I can have, like, something that just outputs the integers in sequence forever 04:28:59 it's a specific kind of state that can't change 04:29:12 and I think it means you can't construct something that outputs the integers in sequence forever _without it being a primitive_ 04:29:17 because it would depend on ordering 04:42:07 mhm 04:42:34 or the model could be perfect 04:42:37 WHCIH IS IT?????? 04:42:41 hey 04:42:42 hey oerjan 04:42:42 prove 04:42:43 my 04:42:44 model 04:42:44 turing 04:42:45 complete 04:42:53 with the same primitives as haskell 04:42:56 but with the restriction 04:43:00 @_@ 04:43:01 that you must use at least one mutable cell 04:43:04 ;) 04:43:05 ;) 04:43:06 ;) 04:47:54 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:47:57 -!- elliott_ has joined. 04:54:59 In 7th grade, I was one of the last two people in my grammar school's spelling bee. They gave me the word 'tutu' (I'm a boy). Of course I spelled it wrong, as I had never even seen the word on paper. In your professional opinion, do you think that's cheap and/or rigged? 04:55:05 --reddit 04:55:22 they gave me the word tutu (im a boy) 04:55:47 ... How can you not know tutu? 04:56:02 pikhq_: because "im a boy" 04:56:06 cheap and/or rigged 04:56:09 hes a boy 04:56:22 What, would that be too potentially gay or some shit? 04:57:45 too tutu 04:58:28 http://londonrioters.co.uk/ 04:58:29 i............... 04:58:36 im trying to figure out what this is for 04:58:41 does it send all the filled in things to the policy 05:01:40 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:01:44 -!- elliott_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:02:49 -!- elliott has joined. 05:03:22 back to thinking about being polymorphic on laziness/strictness 05:03:31 sits here until oerjan asks what he means 05:04:00 -!- pingveno has joined. 05:05:45 * oerjan whistles a merry little tune 05:06:57 bits oerjan's head off, digests 05:07:28 bites 05:08:39 * elliott attempts to figure out what................................... names are 05:10:42 oerjan 05:10:43 what 05:10:43 is 05:10:43 a 05:10:47 name 05:11:08 a sweet by any other rose would smell as name 05:12:51 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 05:32:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:35:26 It is late here, and yet coppro's timezone is just three hours ahead of me, so it would be time to sleep over there too. 05:43:09 -!- evincar has joined. 05:44:39 So I read the article on Funciton today. It's rather polished. 05:44:55 Definitely approve. 05:45:16 Now I'm thinking of writing basically a 2D Lisp. 05:45:25 would it be a good 2d lisp 05:46:09 It could be a goody two-lisp. 05:47:27 help monqy what should i call this languag ehelp 05:47:38 There's so much room for development in >1D languages, but they're such a pain to edit. 05:47:38 is this the 05:47:41 dadaflow language 05:47:49 When looking at the display of my calculator using these movie glasses, wearing them forward results in seeing the display fine in one lens and blocked in the other lens. Rotating does not change anything. When wearing the glasses backward, which lens it is visible though and which is blocked depends on the angle of rotation. 05:47:55 monqy: no, 05:47:57 an functional language, 05:48:04 like haskell... but different..... 05:48:07 is it 05:48:08 @lang 05:48:09 pong 05:48:21 no 05:48:52 is it yocto 05:49:09 whats yotco 05:49:26 like zepto but...smaler 05:50:50 lots of names are taken but they were probably bad names anyway 05:51:01 and I am bad at names 05:51:55 is haskel (not haskell; haskel) a good name 05:52:45 elliott: Find a person from history who's awesome and probably wouldn't approve of their name being used for this thing if they were alive. 05:52:49 Name it after them. 05:52:52 evincar: jesus, 05:52:53 Profit. 05:53:04 i will call my language Jesus 05:53:12 the algorithm finds Jesus 05:53:18 name your language 05:53:18 On the Nintendo DS display, wearing the glasses forward results in one lens changing the color between blue and white depending on rotation, and the other changing between yellow and white depending on rotation. When wearing backward, both lenses change the color between red, green, and white, depending on rotation. 05:53:19 dan 05:53:20 fred 05:53:31 Why not Xesus? Because Xs are cool (see the 90s). 05:53:32 your language has a first name 05:53:34 and a last name 05:54:14 Or Gss (plural of Gs, pronounced "Jeezes"). 05:54:23 i will name my language evincar 05:54:36 As long as you don't pronounce it right, that's fine. 05:54:51 pronounced evinSTUPID :| 05:54:51 My actual nick should technically be evinçar or evincer. 05:55:14 Not Ev-ing-ker. 05:55:30 evin car 05:55:38 An ev-inker. Someone who inks evs. 05:55:57 I should change it to evincdr. 05:56:13 evintruck 05:58:21 ok #jesus is my favourite work of fiction 05:58:26 it's like the most complex drama 06:08:22 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:14:57 -!- azaq231 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:15:08 -!- mycroftiv has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 06:15:20 I'm disappointed. Didn't pay attention to this channel for fifteen whole minutes and all I get is two lines from elliott? Bah. 06:15:47 Is there an existing generalisation of type systems? 06:16:08 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:16:22 Say, continuations : flow control :: what : type systems 06:17:06 Any time there's literature on something, I prefer not to re-invent the wheel. 06:17:22 Unfortunately I end up in unexplored territory far too often these days. 06:17:28 I guess that's the point of doing a Ph.D. 06:17:36 evincar: Sounds like either unexplored territory or edging on it. 06:18:16 continuation type systems? 06:18:18 what does that even mean 06:18:27 Patashu: It means you're underthinking it. 06:18:29 :) 06:19:10 Patashu: I mean, continuations generalise flow control, in the same way that S-expressions generalise program structure, in the same way that macros generalise syntax. Is there a similar abstraction for types? 06:19:21 aaaAaah 06:19:23 I'm not speaking strictly Lisp here, but close. 06:19:50 I doubt you mean "type classes" or other forms of, essentially, providing more general types, here. 06:19:59 Right, that's working within the system. 06:20:19 I mean, you can (relatively) easily write Lisp macros that implement strong typing. 06:20:22 (or more specific, either...) 06:20:32 But I feel like that's a cop-out. 06:20:45 Sure, everything boils down to rewriting eventually. 06:20:50 Except for special forms. 06:21:09 But I mean, what are the primitives from which a type system is constructed? 06:21:46 What are the primitives from which a proof is constructed? 06:22:00 Axioms, and theorems derived from axioms. :P 06:22:16 There's your answer, I suppose. 06:22:18 The most vacuous response I can manage. 06:22:48 I guess what bothers me is that types imbue values with meaning, so you can't have a value without (implicit or explicit) type. 06:22:51 evincar: a bunch of values and a relation on those values 06:22:56 Except that type systems generally aren't specified in terms of their axioms. 06:23:18 types are just sets of values, usually constratined in some fashion 06:23:42 I guess you could formulate "a type describes a size, alignment, and either signedness or floatness" as your axioms. 06:23:53 dude, no 06:23:54 Then derive constraints from those axioms. 06:23:55 type thoery 06:24:00 evincar: Well, types are proofs. 06:24:07 your set of values forms a complete partial order 06:24:19 Hence the question... 06:25:00 I don't see types in terms of set theory. I see sets as emergent behaviour or secondary restrictions on types. 06:25:25 evincar: dude, type thoery 06:25:27 *theory 06:25:28 The natural numbers emerge from an unbounded unsigned integral type. 06:25:33 I'm going to continue repeating this 06:25:41 because there exists a branch of mathematics 06:25:47 called type theory 06:25:52 remarkably, it is the theory of types 06:26:02 and you're pulling a Sgeo here 06:26:53 What, by being practical? :P 06:28:24 no, by saying "I wonder what happens if X?" 06:28:29 and hearing "it's been done" 06:28:40 and going "Maybe it involves Y?" 06:28:48 and hearing "No, it doesn't." 06:28:53 and going "If it had Y, you'd need Z" 06:29:02 and hearing "Maybe, but it doesn't have Y." 06:29:02 I didn't say "if X" to begin with, though. 06:29:03 etc. 06:29:11 same principle 06:29:24 I said "is there such a thing as a primitive of type systems?" 06:29:45 A generalisation under which type systems can be constructed. 06:29:54 yes 06:29:56 it is called type theory 06:32:44 So the operation that defines a type system is...? 06:33:39 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .). 06:34:25 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 06:50:48 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:05:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:11:07 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 08:13:16 -!- Vorpal has joined. 08:13:21 -!- Vorpal has quit (Changing host). 08:13:21 -!- Vorpal has joined. 08:39:45 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:42:33 -!- lament has joined. 09:07:07 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 09:08:11 -!- Taneb has joined. 09:09:05 Morning! 09:11:12 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:45:52 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 09:51:58 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:54:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:01:20 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:01:20 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 10:01:20 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:20:04 -!- augur_ has joined. 10:21:48 -!- pingveno_ has joined. 10:26:10 -!- MSleep has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:26:12 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:26:13 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:26:14 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:26:14 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:26:17 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:29:12 -!- rodgort has joined. 10:33:22 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 10:33:34 Hello! 10:33:59 -!- cheater_ has joined. 10:39:04 hey 10:39:23 How's you? 10:39:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:42:02 not too great, honestly. 10:44:58 The capital-F Future has turned out kinda lame, hasn't it? 10:45:44 I guess. 10:47:21 What up what up? 10:47:33 My homies are all up 10:48:05 Capital F Fuck the capital F Future 10:52:44 time to watch Dexter and forget about how I feel. 10:58:32 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 11:22:19 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:24:26 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:24:36 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 11:29:26 A haiku in brainfuck: 11:29:33 ,[. 11:29:37 ,]++ 11:29:39 --+ 11:31:22 Alternatively: 11:31:40 Comma, bracket, stop 11:31:51 Comma, close bracket, plus, plus 11:31:56 Minus, minus, plus 11:32:29 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 11:39:19 -!- boily has joined. 11:42:48 -!- lambdabot has joined. 11:46:00 Does anyone mind if I make a language called "I hate your 'I hate your bf-derivative I really do' I really do"? 11:47:44 Probably not, but that sort of thing is liable to escalate, and then you run out of different quote-like characters. 11:47:46 Taneb: Make it a recursive acronym 11:48:33 MIBBLLIS? 11:48:48 MIBBLLIS isn't brainfuck but looks like it is? 11:49:03 I like it 11:50:58 It's going to use B,C,K,W combinatory logic 11:51:42 S isn't short for "is" 11:51:55 YIS 11:52:02 Which stands for Yes It Is 11:52:04 NII 11:52:13 SU 11:52:16 As in knights who say? 11:52:38 How about "TIARA" 11:52:53 That's the first Python reference I've made since I made fun of shitty interpreted languages 11:53:09 Which stands for "TIARA Is A Recursive Algorithm" 11:54:26 I thought you'd say s/Algorithm/Acronym/ 11:54:42 Yeah, that's what I meant 11:55:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursive_acronym#Notable_examples 11:55:42 Already been done 11:55:59 Sorry 11:56:00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursive_acronym#Non-technical_examples 11:56:11 Dayum 11:56:27 I'll stick with MIBBLLII 11:56:33 Pronounced mibbly 12:00:54 In MIBBLLII, > and < are IO 12:03:25 <> takes a single bit of input and prints it 12:04:04 Doesn't that mean that > and < are OI? 12:04:15 I never said which order 12:04:24 And actually no 12:05:15 < x prints x 1 0 12:05:37 Ah 12:05:39 > takes a bit from input and returns . if that bit is 1 and .,. if that bit is 0 12:05:40 : parse error on input `,' 12:05:54 Thanks, lambdabot 12:06:36 , a b returns a b b 12:06:44 and . a b returns a 12:10:00 + a b c returns a [b c] 12:10:10 - a b c returns a c b 12:10:21 [ and ] are for grouping 12:10:24 -!- PatashuWarg has joined. 12:10:27 This is Turing Complete 12:10:44 "TITC is Turing Complete"? 12:12:03 TITCBIWSKICC is Turing Complete by isomorphism with SKI combinatory calculus 12:13:00 pronounced titsee-bio-skee-see-see 12:13:07 With a long o 12:13:10 ooooo 12:14:33 TITC as-is sounds like some sort of C variant where all the arithmetic types have been replaced by one that holds a single ternary digit. 12:14:43 -!- MDude has joined. 12:14:50 link? 12:15:01 Work-in-progress 12:16:23 S = +[+[+,]-][++] = +[+,][++-] 12:16:29 K = . 12:16:35 I = ,. 12:18:15 I cannot believe ICBIINB is not brainfuck? 12:18:36 I'll go with TITC 12:19:27 fizzie: I was thinking TITC was just a sexually frustrated C variant 12:19:55 Actually, MIIBBLLII 12:22:37 Taneb, how does that code work? o.o 12:22:48 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B,C,K,W_system 12:23:17 'This system was discovered' 12:23:22 I'm pretty sure you can't discover maths guys 12:23:46 He found it in his doctoral thesis Grundlagen der kombinatorischen Logik 12:23:54 It was just lying there 12:23:55 It was there all along and no-one knew 12:23:58 LOL 12:24:02 I'm going to have lunch now, bye 12:24:24 Taneb: the problem is that SKI doesn't compute bytes. 12:24:29 -!- Taneb has changed nick to TanebIsHavingLun. 12:24:56 I've defined IO similar to how Binary Lambda Calculus does it 12:25:23 Where are the continuations? 12:25:39 -!- sllide has joined. 12:26:25 yes, the problem is that in order for it to work correctly ,. has to input and output a bf program. 12:27:45 why is brainfuck so popular? 12:28:04 because it was one of the first 12:28:13 ah.. 12:29:20 also, because its specification is tiny but working with it is hugely difficult, it's easy to write a compiler/interpreter for and it's still turing complete 12:29:40 Also, it has a dirty word like right there in the name. 12:29:46 it's a very minimal model of a Turing machine, yet it's considered "esoteric" because of its unusual programs. 12:31:00 -!- TanebIsHavingLun has changed nick to Taneb. 12:47:33 Bye 12:52:45 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:05:20 /win 4 13:13:02 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:13:27 -!- copumpkin has joined. 13:16:12 /win some, /lose some. 13:20:06 https://gist.github.com/1136780 13:20:10 I had way too much time on my hands. 13:20:23 Guess how evil.py works. 13:22:02 I wish #esoteric was all up in #haskell right now 13:24:05 all up in that bitch 13:24:51 I think it'd be fun 13:35:45 -!- Taneb has joined. 13:36:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:38:25 Hello! 13:39:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Don't enjoy unlocking the matrix of ununseptide, please. | wget -s 42 redpill | man mouth | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 13:40:32 (It's disputed whether ununseptium would be a halogen, but I don't think anyone actually cares.) 13:40:32 Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 13:42:10 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:43:27 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:00:53 hmmm, so you could use unsafeCoerce to artificially change the phantom type of a GADT, right? 14:00:56 with no issues. 14:10:57 Oh dammit, the cat brought in a mouse. 14:11:09 USB or PS/2? 14:11:25 Dunno, I'll have to catch it first. 14:11:26 BRB. 14:14:43 Dammit, I lost it. 14:17:54 -!- Vorpal has joined. 14:18:19 I knew it, it's hiding in the curtains. 14:18:27 I'll just have to waid. 14:18:30 *wait 14:21:44 HOW AM I BEING OUTWITTED BY A MOUSE 14:21:50 I know, I'll get the cat! 14:22:35 WHERE IS HE THE LITTLE BASTARD 14:22:42 SHOW SOME MAMMALIAN SOLIDARITY 14:23:18 Mice are mammals too 14:23:23 As are koalas 14:24:24 And platypuses 14:25:20 !python from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,);memmove(id(tuple)+12,byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_uint));print tuple 14:25:22 ​/tmp/input.32634: line 1: 32642 Segmentation fault python 14:25:25 :( 14:25:32 !python from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,);memmove(id(tuple)+20,byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_uint));print tuple 14:25:33 ​/tmp/input.32692: line 1: 32699 Segmentation fault python 14:26:01 !python from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,);memmove(id(tuple)+20,byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_uint));print tuple[0]==tuple 14:26:02 Traceback (most recent call last): 14:26:20 !python from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,);memmove(id(tuple)+12,byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_uint));print tuple[0]==tuple 14:26:21 ​/tmp/input.374: line 1: 381 Segmentation fault python 14:26:24 :< 14:26:36 !python from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,);memmove(id(tuple)+24,byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_uint));print tuple[0]==tuple 14:26:37 ​/tmp/input.437: line 1: 444 Segmentation fault python 14:26:41 lols 14:26:55 !python print "!python print \"test\"" 14:26:56 ​!python print "test" 14:27:28 !python from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,);memmove(u_void_p(id(tuple)+24),byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_void_p));print tuple[0]==tuple 14:27:29 Traceback (most recent call last): 14:27:44 !python from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,);memmove(c_void_p(id(tuple)+24),byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_void_p));print tuple[0]==tuple 14:27:44 Well, EgoBot doesn't call itself 14:27:45 ​/tmp/input.653: line 1: 660 Segmentation fault python 14:27:53 Also its version of Python is earlier than 3.0 14:28:02 !python from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,);memmove(c_void_p(id(tuple)+38),byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_void_p));print tuple[0]==tuple 14:28:03 False 14:28:21 !python from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,);memmove(c_void_p(id(tuple)+40),byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_void_p));print tuple[0]==tuple 14:28:21 False 14:29:08 !python exec """from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,)\nfor x in range(5):\n memmove(c_void_p(id(tuple)+24+8*x),byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_void_p));print tuple[0]==tuple""" 14:29:09 ​/tmp/input.878: line 1: 885 Segmentation fault python 14:29:26 !python exec """from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,)\nfor x in range(5):\n memmove(c_void_p(id(tuple)+32+8*x),byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_void_p));print tuple[0]==tuple""" 14:29:26 False 14:29:39 This mouse is mocking me, I swear. 14:29:46 !python exec """from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,)\nfor x in range(5):\n memmove(c_void_p(id(tuple)+32+8*x),byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_void_p));print id(tuple[0])""" 14:29:47 7517664 14:30:06 !python exec """from ctypes import *;tuple=(None,)\nfor x in range(5*8):\n memmove(c_void_p(id(tuple)+32+x),byref(c_uint(id(tuple))),sizeof(c_void_p));print id(tuple[0])""" 14:30:07 7517664 14:30:21 Yeah, this isn't working. =p 14:31:01 !c #include 14:31:03 Does not compile. 14:31:14 OK 14:31:18 I swear 14:31:26 !getinterp c 14:31:26 It is not moving around in the same space I am 14:32:27 !c #include int main() {PyFunctionObject f;printf("%u",((unsigned int)&(f.ob_item))-((unsigned int)&f));} 14:32:28 Does not compile. 14:32:58 `run echo "#include " > test.c 14:33:01 No output. 14:33:15 `run echo "int main() {PyFunctionObject f;printf(\"%u\",((unsigned int)&(f.ob_item))-((unsigned int)&f));}" > test.c 14:33:16 No output. 14:33:20 `run gcc -o test test.c 14:33:21 No output. 14:33:23 `run ./test 14:33:25 No output. 14:33:26 `ls 14:33:28 1 \ babies \ bin \ bluhbluh \ env \ foo \ paste \ ps \ quine.pl \ quine2.pl \ quine3.pl \ quotes \ quotese \ tekst \ test.c \ tmp.tmp \ tmpdir.1749 \ warez \ тэкст 14:33:32 `paste test.c 14:33:33 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20696 14:33:43 `run echo "#include " > test.c 14:33:45 No output. 14:33:47 `run echo "int main() {PyFunctionObject f;printf(\"%u\",((unsigned int)&(f.ob_item))-((unsigned int)&f));}" >> test.c 14:33:49 No output. 14:33:52 `run gcc -o test test.c 14:33:53 No output. 14:33:54 `run ./test 14:33:55 No output. 14:34:00 `run sh -c ./test 14:34:01 No output. 14:34:04 `paste test.c 14:34:05 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8594 14:34:07 `ls 14:34:08 1 \ babies \ bin \ bluhbluh \ env \ foo \ paste \ ps \ quine.pl \ quine2.pl \ quine3.pl \ quotes \ quotese \ tekst \ test.c \ tmp.tmp \ tmpdir.2145 \ warez \ тэкст 14:34:23 `which gcc 14:34:24 ​/usr/bin/gcc 14:34:30 `run /usr/bin/gcc -o test test.c 14:34:32 No output. 14:34:37 `gcc -o test test.c 14:34:38 No output. 14:34:40 `ls 14:34:42 1 \ babies \ bin \ bluhbluh \ env \ foo \ paste \ ps \ quine.pl \ quine2.pl \ quine3.pl \ quotes \ quotese \ tekst \ test.c \ tmp.tmp \ tmpdir.2361 \ warez \ тэкст 14:34:45 wat 14:35:03 `echo Hello, I am capable of being used via PM 14:35:04 Hello, I am capable of being used via PM 14:35:22 Gregor, can you just make it ignore Lymee. 14:35:46 Or give her n uses and then tell her to use her own damn computer. 14:40:58 `echo interesting 14:41:00 interesting 14:41:25 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:41:50 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:42:23 -!- copumpkin has quit (Client Quit). 14:45:43 -!- PatashuWarg has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 14:51:05 -!- derrik has joined. 14:51:37 "there is at least one child on this planet named karkat." 14:52:00 [citation needed] 14:53:28 http://twitter.com/#!/andrewhussie/status/100799021219708928 Ok, so I don't know where he got that from 14:55:12 http://www.mspaforums.com/showthread.php?30478-Littlest-Homestuck-Fan 14:55:47 ^echo I am also capable of functioning via PM, and my 'echo' is more interesting. 14:55:47 I am also capable of functioning via PM, and my 'echo' is more interesting. I am also capable of functioning via PM, and my 'echo' is more interesting. 14:55:55 -!- lament has joined. 14:56:13 `echo fungot can suck it 14:56:14 Gregor: your sylladex, but you're not about to get into it some time 14:56:14 fungot can suck it 14:57:09 ^reverb NO YOU 14:57:09 NNOO YYOOUU 14:59:03 -!- itidus20 has joined. 15:07:36 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:11:14 @src join 15:11:14 join x = x >>= id 15:11:28 ah. 15:11:38 so simple. 15:13:47 list >>= is a beautiful thing. 15:14:28 haskell is awful 15:14:37 @hoogle IO (IO a) 15:14:38 System.Exit exitFailure :: IO a 15:14:38 System.Exit exitSuccess :: IO a 15:14:38 System.IO fixIO :: (a -> IO a) -> IO a 15:14:48 @hoogle (IO (IO a)) 15:14:49 System.Exit exitFailure :: IO a 15:14:49 System.Exit exitSuccess :: IO a 15:14:49 System.IO fixIO :: (a -> IO a) -> IO a 15:14:53 ...not what I want. 15:15:08 hoogle is even worse than haskell 15:15:17 lament >>= is an ugly thing. 15:15:47 > filterM (const [True,False]) "Take this!" 15:15:48 ["Take this!","Take this","Take thi!","Take thi","Take ths!","Take ths","Ta... 15:16:04 powerset to the face. 15:16:06 how does it feel. 15:16:30 feel those 2^n possibilities. 15:21:03 is there a esolang that refuses to listen sometimes? 15:21:08 like refusing to assign variables 15:21:11 skipping instructions 15:21:59 INTERCAL 15:22:06 ZOMBIE 15:22:57 ah a language for necromancers 15:23:17 sounds good 15:27:30 wtf 15:27:39 that is weird 15:30:11 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:30:11 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 15:30:11 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:30:30 -!- derrik has quit (Quit: kthxbye). 15:33:52 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 15:34:44 hmm what about the IP following a maze, when it finds a spot where it can go multiple ways it goes where previous instructions pointed it 15:34:45 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:37:15 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:39:36 thats a cool idea 15:40:00 a second stack to point the IP 15:40:32 and the first stack for normal operations like calculations and stuff 15:41:21 the IP as a maze wanderer and the program as a maze 15:41:29 yup 15:42:09 i just dont know if i should use images or a normal text file as the input 15:42:17 and then you get befunge. 15:43:18 again? D: 15:46:17 D: 15:46:25 damn befunge 15:46:33 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 15:46:35 it has everything i want in my own esolang 15:47:06 -!- sllide has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:50:21 -!- sllide has joined. 15:52:52 oops 15:53:07 when my pc rebooted i got the best idea ever 15:53:09 lol 15:53:25 a diagonal stack based programming language 15:54:23 4 bit instruction followed by a 4 bit operand 16:01:44 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:04:30 my main interest area is scripting languages, because i could use them towards making games. as to whether they would be esoteric or not i guess not really 16:05:19 but it doesn't have to be that way 16:05:21 sllide: There's Java2K, it only does what you want with a certain probability. 16:06:00 Rephrasing, I want a language which people would enjoy using. Like a passtime 16:06:37 I want it to be the pinocchio of programming languages. 16:06:46 hah 16:07:07 Taking care of poor old Gepetto in his darkest hour. 16:09:21 As a designer th-- badum bum bum.. that's it. That is the formalization of something I have been trying to say. Something truely great will smash through the shell of it's use-cases like a baby bird. 16:09:55 mine has to be understandable but still be unique 16:11:41 It is said that my ramblings are incoherent. So it is. 16:11:53 incoherent? 16:12:45 Regardless of that, I look on this thing called 'design'. So how does design progress? Questions are asked such as "what is this supposed to do?" "what are it's use cases?" 16:12:59 ah 16:13:15 Eventually some things reach a point where the users transcend the plans of the designers. 16:14:51 So as a designer the challenge is there of how should one consider the possibility that his design will eventually be transcended by it's users. 16:15:28 okay 16:15:29 If he builds in walls and stoppages to prevent this, then it may prevent the design spreading its wings 16:15:46 you want it to be as much expandable as possible? 16:16:41 Users will find uses for the thing you design beyond what you imagined. 16:18:15 So the question I see there is, can we help those users after they have escaped the prison of our design 16:18:27 or should we let them go and not interfere 16:18:41 i see 16:19:02 or should we ensure they never do anything we didn't plan for them to do? 16:19:45 The ego wants to do the first option. But the second option is probably the "right" one. 16:19:50 itidus20: yes, see OverloadedStrings in Haskell. 16:19:56 I have found several uses that the designer did not intend. 16:20:00 :) 16:20:17 ask elliott about it. 16:21:17 So this raises some pretty serious questions for me. Such as, can you even design a good programming language around possible uses 16:21:38 Or just where the hell does it come from. So the design becomes a creative art. 16:22:48 Some bizzare thing which cannot be explained any more than how to paint the Mona Lisa. 16:23:41 Tarantino says he holds his pen up like an antenna 16:24:14 And the dialog comes to him 16:25:30 Now while there is no sure method to paint a Mona Lisa... what people do to compromise is come together and share ideas and what not. Gatherings 16:25:56 There have been over the years schools of art, schools of philosophy.. and the mathematicians would have their disciples etc 16:26:46 I'm not actually saying anything meaningful but perhaps it is inspiring 16:27:10 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:29:14 What does anyone think of MIBBLLII? 16:33:41 Because I'm an attention whore who likes to know what people think of things I have created 16:34:31 i looked at the wiki page just now.. and i laughed at the title but didn't realize you made it 16:34:59 There is a link to my user page right there 16:35:07 well yeah 16:37:23 Taneb: So I need to train myself to think in a certain way. Perhaps by telling you this it will advance my cause. 16:37:39 Is this still about algebra? 16:37:43 nope 16:38:18 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:38:20 -!- azaq23 has quit (Changing host). 16:38:20 -!- azaq23 has joined. 16:40:32 A PC is a platform. It has it's CPU and instruction set. It has it's RAM, buses, addressing scheme, Operating System, monitor,speakers, network card, disks, etc. And then there is the human operator. The human has the body and the brain and the PC and his bedroom or garage. The human has his textbooks and notebooks and his sciences, emotions, thoughts, etc. 16:41:16 I think a programming language is about going from the human to the PC, according to _such_ understandings of 'human' and 'PC'. 16:41:32 Ish. 16:41:45 Actually, yes 16:42:19 The higher-level the programming language, the less work a human has to do and the more a PC. Low level is the other way round 16:42:51 Even on the lowest level programming language, the separation between humand and pc is still pertinent. 16:43:20 Yes 16:43:35 All programming languages are somewhere between the human and the computer 16:44:23 I know that the actual history of that which can be called programming goes back centuries, possibly millenia, but the punch cards represent the first common modern interface. 16:44:42 If not punch cards then it was a matter of rewiring 16:45:27 Yes 16:46:09 So I think there may be a vast chasm of unexplored space which has been largely ignored because someone built a bridge over it 16:46:36 Such as? 16:47:13 Well, first of all.. why is there a 1 to 1 association between programming and language 16:47:26 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:47:29 itidus20: you'd make a great liberal arts major. 16:47:32 is there no other means of programming a computer than using a language? 16:48:20 I can't think of any 16:48:28 This juncture gets us to ask what do we even mean by a language 16:48:38 Unless raw machine code doesn't count as a language 16:48:53 raw machine code is the PC side of things 16:49:18 so are we making a reification fallacy by saying language? 16:49:45 anthropomorphizing the pc 16:50:26 Oh somehow it seems to help, seems to work better that way 16:50:47 I am just questioning it. Theres probably good reasons for it to be the way it is. 16:51:46 Perhaps it is because modern PC is designed as a kind of robot 16:51:53 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 16:52:57 ........ 16:53:13 maybe uhh... maybe we sort of anthropomorphize a book when we read it, as though it was speaking to us. 16:53:35 aside from the question of subvocalization 16:54:02 sort of a way to approximate the author who cannot be present 16:55:00 ... i know that enough is enough.. im gonna end rant. 16:55:32 basically a language is such a formalism used to describe a kind of data. 16:55:41 s/such/just/ 16:56:13 or, in theory, used for the sake of being defined. 16:57:41 A language is less of a language and more of a notation 16:57:48 A protocol is more of a language 17:00:05 itidus20: so no, a language is not the only way to program a computer, but you can probably model most means as a language. 17:02:25 ARGH THAT BLOODY MOUSE 17:02:30 IT MOCKS ME 17:02:35 AAAAAAAA 17:02:39 WHAT IF THE MOUSE 17:02:42 IS ACTUALLY 17:02:45 BEHIND ME 17:02:47 WHAT IF I 17:02:50 AM ACTUALLY 17:02:52 THE MOUSE 17:02:55 what if you are a finite state automata. 17:03:01 WHAT IF 17:03:03 a theoretical vending machine. 17:03:04 WHAT IF INDEED 17:03:10 Then eventually he would either halt or repeat 17:03:19 What if I am... a phantom hoover. 17:03:23 I suppose "dude..." would be an acceptable answer to most "what if" questions. 17:04:09 or "whoa..." 17:04:21 back 17:05:38 What If I am actually itidus20 dreaming he is Taneb? 17:05:44 ok so I feel I am drawing towards the whorf sapir hypothesis. which i first heard about in relation to lojban. so someone in here nicely told me that it is all but discredited. 17:06:11 * itidus20 knows that chuang tzu wrote such a story about a butterfly. 17:06:23 Its in about the same state as the wire-crossing problem 17:06:30 But.. what about a graph of creatures dreaming they are other creatures? 17:06:38 now we're cooking 17:06:44 The strong form is pretty much certainly false, but the weak form is pretty much certainly true 17:07:23 The man dreams he is a butterfly. The butterfly dreams it is a snake. The snake dreams it is a pidgeon. The pidgeon dreams it is a butterfly. 17:08:05 nah forget it. 17:08:32 i mean, lets ignore my last post 17:08:53 Taneb: ok here is the paradox. 17:10:22 Despite having no obstructions, machine code or perhaps assembly is not necessarily the language with which the computer can be most fully exploited 17:11:08 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:11:09 we speak of turing complete a lot.. but what about CPU-complete? :D 17:11:46 You mean a finite state automaton with an exceedingly large number of states? 17:12:00 The problem is that that's a bit harder to define. e.g. Bitxtreme is arguably "CPU-complete", but entirely useless. 17:12:15 Also, like Taneb said :P 17:12:40 I never shut up.. I am the bane of those who would read the logs 17:12:53 That being said, see http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Bounded-storage_machine 17:13:38 itidus20, no, that's elliott. 17:13:54 He takes great pride in the fact that he talks twice as much as his nearest contender. 17:14:17 Taneb: I mean it is likely that some compilers will have certain opcodes which they simply never generate. 17:14:53 And the question of whether a compiler should have a means other than inline asm to generate every last opcode, or, if not, does it imply that those missing opcodes are like appendages 17:15:17 ^compiler/interpreter :-? 17:15:26 Compiler is right 17:15:57 If the compiled language is capable of everything raw machine code is, and the compiler actually works, that implies that those opcodes are redundant 17:17:32 In Hofstadter's book, Godel Escher Bach, the Lamp is made of copper, the Meta-Lamp is silver, the Meta-Meta-Lamp is gold, it does not say what the Meta-Meta-Meta-Lamp is made of, I can probably guess but what do you think? 17:17:59 assembly programmers like to tout(spelling?) that they have more control than a higher level programmer 17:18:06 zzo38: platinum? 17:18:38 itidus20: they have more control over what the computer is doing, but exactly the same control on what it does 17:18:43 Taneb, step aside, I'm the official channel expert on precious metals. 17:18:47 Maybe. But I think it would be roentgenium 17:19:36 Phantom_Hoover: OK if you are expert probably you know better than either of us. What do you think? 17:19:48 Gregor: I really like ORK. I haven't tried to use it but it seems to stand tall as an esolang. 17:20:32 zzo38, platinum is still the obvious one. 17:22:03 A case can be made for unbipentium 17:22:06 i really like aubergine still. 17:22:11 Even though it hasn't been discovered 17:22:12 * quintopia winks at boily 17:22:17 Phantom_Hoover: Well, OK. I am not expert on precious metals so I suppose you know better. But, then what is the Meta-Meta-Meta-Meta-Lamp made of? Do you know? I don't know. 17:22:28 zzo38: that one's made of upsidaisium 17:23:27 <3 quintopia 17:23:35 -!- derrik has joined. 17:23:46 quintopia: Thank you for putting that voice in my head :P 17:23:51 "Upsidaisium?!" 17:24:00 zzo38, palladium. 17:24:20 Phantom_Hoover: OK. What's next? 17:24:30 Iridium! 17:24:45 O, OK. 17:25:12 zzo38: you should ask the genie whether PH is just pulling metal out of his ass 17:26:34 quintopia: Yes, it would be a way to do so, if it were possible 17:27:22 But I said roentgenium but I don't know anything about precious metals anyways so maybe I am wrong 17:29:26 It is true that some compilers do not generate all opcodes of the CPU, but some of them could be used to do things that the code does, in a shorter way. Such as, the ASCII adjust commands in x86 17:29:57 Taneb: So going back to my point about PC/human. I think what has happened is that everyone in programming has been channeled into a very standard mindset of programming with many unnecessary bonds to mathematics. 17:30:41 A programmer does not NEED to know what a number is. 17:31:28 does a fractran programmer need to know? 17:31:31 itidus20: I think it depends on the program, isn't it? 17:31:43 i think you can't program without concept of quantity 17:31:45 zzo38: yup 17:31:50 i think you can 17:32:01 oh but 17:32:36 humans function with quantity instinctively without a complex mathematical concept of it 17:33:01 give me an example of a program that one could make whilst completely ignoring the concept of quantity 17:33:19 What about.. a programming language for the illiterate :D 17:33:24 quintopia: Parts of programs, perhaps. 17:33:31 oh they can still speak.. i am forgetting that 17:33:32 and i mean even the human instinctive concept of quantity 17:33:44 they could speak into a microphone if they are illiterate 17:34:10 at the very least, you should be able to compare entities 17:34:12 In some cases you just need a series of bits but it is still convenient to write it as a number, in base 2, base 8, or base 16. 17:34:22 aka, one is "more" or "less" than another 17:34:41 this is the fruit of my earlier rant 17:35:32 And numbers are still useful to describe things in the program even for parts of the program which are not based on numbers. 17:35:39 you can extend or diminish the responsibility of the compiler/interpreter to whatever degree you like. but then it becomes a question of implementability 17:36:05 Bit shifting by a constant is one such example. 17:36:08 like.. suppose you are a customer.. and you tell a programmer your requirements.. are you a programmer then? 17:36:51 i suppose if someone chose to differentiate "location" from "quantity" you could do it, if all you needed to do was reference where things were and where they need to be moved to. you could name every location instead of numbering them, thus removing quantity. but if you do that, it becomes much more difficult to determine the spatial relationships between locations 17:37:23 or does the demarcation of programmer and mere designer occur at the point where you speak to a human who speaks to a PC 17:38:10 even in a warehouse, when they aren't even checking the crate contents or counting them, they speak in terms of quantity, like "put this three rows left, four columns back, second shelf" 17:38:43 or equivalently, "put this in C4 second shelf" 17:38:45 Ok. I formally accept that a concept of quantity is necessary. 17:39:33 Because otherwise it's just @_@ 17:39:59 wa hahahahaa 17:40:12 but now you want to be able to differentiate implicit programming (describing a process to another human) and explicit programming (describing a process to a computer)? 17:40:32 And Star Trek programming, where you describe the process to a computer in broad English :P 17:40:38 damn steam sales always happen when i dont have money :( 17:40:49 Gregor: that goes in implicit programming. strong AI is practically human. 17:41:08 So, s/another human/an intelligent entity/ 17:41:47 -!- MSleep has joined. 17:41:52 mind reading is the wrong answer... it has always been the wrong answer the "mind reading/neural control" 17:42:20 since anything "non-qualia" you can think in your head you can tell another human 17:44:10 so be afraid if they inject you with intelligence medicine, be afraid if they implant a chip in you, be afraid if they hook an EEG machine up to your cubicle 17:45:32 Pfff, you're just being paranoid. 17:45:34 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:45:50 * Gregor hooks his desktop's USB port into the downlink node in his right temple. 17:47:20 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:47:37 I say "be afraid" because by the time they are at the door.. it will be too late to just "assert" that you're not interested. 17:48:07 We are the Bork. Resistance is futile. 17:49:39 quintopia: I think the line between implicit and explicit is quickly blurring 17:51:14 or maybe not. wiki is telling me about implicit functions 17:51:50 yeah i think the difference is pretty clear 17:52:05 one is used to describe problems, the other, solutions 17:52:15 only the latter can be rigorously analyzed 17:55:32 well suppose there was a language which had 256 strings which it would output with a newline based on the value of a byte. 17:55:37 I admit it is certainly not turing complete. And it is basically a limited database 17:56:15 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:56:16 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:57:23 it would be a derivative of hello 17:58:08 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:00:43 I'm not sure if quantity is entirely needed for saving location, at least in the sense of recognising numbers. 18:01:14 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude. 18:05:52 There is another question here. :D The question of whether a programmer is still a programmer if they do not understand their own language. 18:06:19 Can they use that language effectively? 18:08:01 The possible solutions which can be created by a turing machine are an unbounded quantity. 18:08:22 Unbounded but countable 18:08:25 So it seems anyway.. i am not in any position to make such a bold claim 18:09:11 The implication is that noone truely understands what the turing machine is capable of. 18:09:27 So do they understand it if they do not understand it's full potential? 18:09:53 Do you know every single word in your native language? 18:10:13 (I'll assume English) 18:10:22 They understand how to build one. But they don't have an omniscient grasp of it. 18:10:28 No I don't! 18:10:31 English has too many loan words 18:10:44 you'd have to know all greek and latin to know english 18:10:47 But do you count yourself as an English speaker 18:10:53 I do. 18:11:50 Uh.. perhaps I am distorting the meaning of understanding. 18:12:35 into something which is not good for much but my arguing 18:13:55 An implicit programmer doesn't know what is possible. 18:14:17 He doesn't even fully understand himself (one assumes), let alone another human. 18:20:21 Often it is taught that how programming works is create the source code and it is fed into compiler or interpreter. Fair enough. What I am talking about is the nature of the source code editor. 18:20:58 Oops. Not only the editor but the language itself too. 18:21:06 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:21:07 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 18:21:07 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:21:19 you sound like some conspiracy theorist 18:21:24 hehe 18:21:24 or something 18:21:35 not really.. but i sometimes listen to them 18:21:51 I just had a nice idea. 18:22:39 A programming language made to have the source code resemble a consipiracy theory? 18:23:41 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:23:46 -!- monqy has joined. 18:26:01 this: http://oi52.tinypic.com/10ckho8.jpg 18:26:39 6, 7, 8, 9 18:27:26 perhaps can be expressed as: if (a > 5 && a < 10) printf("a\n"); 18:27:45 oops 18:27:57 printf("%d\n",a); 18:28:02 The memory locations in a computer could just be described as a series of bits, not as numbers. The index into an array could also be a series of bits, and not necessarily even the low bits. 18:28:53 wish i could think of a slightly less trivial 18:29:37 I was thinking it could be based on something like compass and traightedge. 18:31:05 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:31:23 Though I'm not really sure how to sue it to represent memory. 18:32:19 Oragami can also be used for math, and can so some things compass and straightedge can't, but I'm not sure it it would really be easier to make a programming language based on it. 18:34:20 venn diagrams don't really lend themselves to sequence very well 18:34:41 perhaps they would be better for functional programming 18:35:04 your venn diagram looked kind of not at all like a venn diagram 18:35:05 nah 18:35:25 ah. 18:37:55 Still, I can think of no better way of drawing conditional expressions 18:38:21 i should try a more complex expression 18:46:22 I think the documentation for the ZOMBIE programming language is a bit vague, some things are not written clear and I do not exactly understand some things about it. 18:46:36 Yeah, it is vague. 18:46:49 Take it up with Dr. David Morgan-Mar 18:47:23 The memory locations in a computer could just be described as a series of bits, not as numbers. The index into an array could also be a series of bits, and not necessarily even the low bits. <-- you could also describe the memory locations in a computer as a set of capacitor connected in an intricate manner, providing a way to access individual ones. 18:47:40 actually, not quite true. You address it by the word length 18:48:05 not sure what the word length for common PC DRAM modules is. 8 bits or larger i guess 18:50:13 It is largely up to the language designer as to whether the programmer needs to know how much memory is being used. :D 18:51:04 this: http://oi52.tinypic.com/10ckho8.jpg <-- image based language? 18:51:10 (I hope that is the input file!) 18:51:30 there is no actual language spec or interpreter or compiler.. only that image. 18:51:40 aww 18:51:45 and it is much of a dead end :P i just wanted to throw it out there 18:52:25 and i don't endorse the idea that someone else pick up what i discard 18:52:31 but what you will 18:52:43 itidus20, don't worry, I'm too lazy 18:52:44 someone else mentioned similar things though perhaps 18:52:57 itidus20, anyway I gather you are no fan of open source then? 18:53:01 i just watched cube2: hypercube 18:53:05 i cant think straight anymore 18:53:24 Vorpal: i just thnk that.. the idea is broken 18:53:46 i mean the idea of the picture i drew 18:53:49 itidus20, how so? 18:53:50 not the idea of open source 18:54:01 itidus20, still: how so? 18:54:12 and.. i would not like to be responsible for someone else wasting hours away just to implement that piece of cra 18:54:15 p 18:54:46 itidus20, it could be done as a part of a larger language, where control flow is input as a flow chart 18:54:56 with venn diagram in the condition boxes 18:55:01 itidus20, that way it could work 18:55:06 also.. the idea doesn't really scale very well 18:55:19 itidus20, true, but many esolangs don't 18:55:23 they can still be interesting 18:55:24 maybe it does. maybe theres something in it 18:55:48 oh i like open source.. more specificially i hate patents 18:56:29 open source and patents are not opposites though 18:57:11 but then what is the benefit of reading an open source which is patented 18:57:22 -!- invariable has joined. 18:57:48 itidus20, indeed. I'm opposed to patents and I like open source. But it is perfectly possible for someone to oppose patents and oppose open source 18:57:57 or oppose patents and not care about open source 18:58:02 ah 18:58:27 I wouldn't mind patents if they were shorter. 18:58:49 humm 18:59:05 I am slowly realizing that my opinion about them is of no value. 18:59:06 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:59:35 I think I have written a MIBBLLII CAT 18:59:36 that my opinion is self-interested from a specific position in relation to larger economic entities than myself 19:00:51 basically it seems highly likely in this world of no free lunches that something dear would have to be sacrificed to eliminate software patents 19:00:57 Taneb, never heard of that language before 19:01:07 Because I created it earlier today 19:01:32 MIBBLLII stands for MIBBLLII Isn't Brainfuck But Looks Like It Is 19:01:36 Phantom_Hoover, 19:01:39 Taneb, is it on the wiki 19:01:40 It is economic thermodynamics. 19:01:44 How are you not in the other channel 19:01:47 Vorpal: yes 19:01:50 hm 19:02:33 Sgeo: which other channel? He's in #esoteric-minecraft 19:02:43 Just as we can never rid ourselves of germs 19:02:43 The other other channel 19:02:49 Okay 19:02:59 I've only ever been on two channels on freenode 19:03:05 supposing we were to rid ourselves of harmful germs.. would then our good germs not take up the opportunity to turn bad 19:03:19 perhaps the nasty germs keep the good germs in check 19:04:35 Taneb: I admit some envy of MIBBLLII 19:04:43 i hope this is not taken as offence 19:04:52 Taneb, he means #jesus 19:05:00 Oooh 19:05:03 That other channel 19:05:11 itidus20: define envy 19:05:20 You wish you did it first? 19:05:24 one moment... 19:05:45 it is a word from my language english, so I shall consult my dictionary 19:06:55 Without notion of malevolence: a Desire to equal another in achievement or excellence; emulation. 19:07:06 Okay, that's a compliment 19:07:33 eg. His aduancement shall ingender in noble men an honest enuie. 19:07:58 eg. Such as cleanliness and decency Prompt to a virtuous envy. 19:09:22 at least thats what I think I meant. 19:09:28 It is hard to be sure of these things. 19:14:06 Just signed up for the Spotify waiting list 19:14:19 Less than a minute later, I get an email saying my wait is over 19:14:44 Convinient 19:17:40 You people. 19:17:43 Youuuuuuuuuuuu people. 19:17:52 Hey Gregor 19:17:55 Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuus people 19:17:56 haven't seen you in a while 19:18:21 OK there is a guy in #jesus who is a Wolfram employee and thinks Wolfram is a genius. 19:18:42 Hey pooppy. 19:19:14 Since #jesus is not the official channel of Jesus, shouldn't it be ##jesus? 19:23:16 attempting to apply my truth table notation from about a week ago to combinatrics I get: I x = 2bitTT(0,1) x = x; K x y = 4bitTT(0,0,1,1) x y = x; S f g x = ??? = f x(g x); 19:23:40 ya... i didn't try very hard.. >.< 19:23:47 Combinatorics and combinatory logic are different 19:24:39 My conception of the truth tables fully covers the I and K .. but S seems like it would screw my head a bit 19:25:14 You need a truth table that can take a truth table as input 19:25:24 and that is how i envisiioned them 19:25:34 i tried writing up a BNF of it 19:26:39 i think i deleted it in the end from the looks of it but te idea is simple enough 19:27:19 since a truth table will ultimately resolve to 0 or 1 once all free variables are filled in 19:27:48 (reading about combinatory logic as linked from miibbllii 19:28:37 but i don't think my idea really had the sufficient flexibility to support the S combinator 19:32:08 never mind you are right the are different 19:32:37 I think the Plan 9 Protocol should be assigned a USB device class number (possibly number 0x90). 19:33:33 -!- derrik has quit (Quit: bedtimezzz). 19:49:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:55:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: New kernel.). 20:02:18 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:03:21 help monqy what should i call this languag ehelp 20:03:26 ehelp it is, then 20:04:43 evincar: jesus, 20:04:57 no, he would probably approve. his followers, on the other hand... 20:05:34 Why not Xesus? Because Xs are cool (see the 90s). 20:05:51 in that case i think Xristos would be more traditional 20:09:23 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:10:46 Probably not, but that sort of thing is liable to escalate, and then you run out of different quote-like characters. 20:10:53 ' and " can be alternated 20:11:15 like in INTERCAL iirc 20:11:27 Oh snap 20:11:31 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:11:55 22:12 oerjan> Probably not, but that sort of thing is liable to escalate, and then you run out of different quote-like characters. 20:11:58 22:12 oerjan> ' and " can be alternated 20:12:01 22:12 oerjan> like in INTERCAL iirc 20:12:31 cannot keep the main INTERCAL maintainer out of the discussion, er monologue 20:12:34 22:12 oerjan> Probably not, but that sort of thing is liable to escalate, and then you run out of different quote-like characters. 20:12:35 22:12 oerjan> ' and " can be alternated 20:12:35 22:12 oerjan> like in INTERCAL iirc 20:12:36 actually, you typically don't even need to alternate in INTERCAL 20:12:41 is this copypaste day 20:12:52 although, it makes things clearer, and it makes them less ambiguous in some cases involving array subscripts 20:12:57 do we want to make a reenactment of the last time we did it 20:13:33 cheater_: you almost managed to irritate me there 20:13:54 oerjan, i thought it was fun the last time we did that though 20:14:06 we ended up with something like 12-13 nicks in one message. 20:14:12 ok 20:14:26 i think that was in 2009. 20:20:40 sorry oerjan i didn't want to irritate you!! 20:21:22 But what irritates me the most is when people use multiple exclamation points! 20:21:23 in fact, i have just thought about this place, because someone in #postgresql was asking if CTE's are TC 20:21:47 interestingly enough they can be recursive 20:22:02 which is very cool, i don't even know how to imagine this sort of thing 20:22:17 how do you picture a recursive select statement?? 20:23:06 Stuffed mushrooms nom 20:23:28 Sounds like the perfect answer to me. 20:24:47 NihilistDandy, with cheese? 20:25:01 Among other things, yes 20:25:03 Homemade 20:25:11 onions? 20:26:13 Caramel? 20:26:31 lemon jelly? 20:26:41 Marmite? 20:26:48 mmm, marmite. 20:27:01 could have some now, but damn if i find any in stupid germany 20:27:02 Marmite: Now with 25% more earwax! 20:27:24 earwax: now with 50% more maggots! 20:27:39 I convinced a German colleague of mine to try Marmite while we were in Lancaster. 20:27:42 He was not amused :P 20:27:50 really? 20:27:56 did he take a goop 20:27:58 thinking it's nutella 20:28:02 No, he spread it thin. 20:28:20 But considering that Marmite tastes like a slow, miserable death, I can understand his feelings. 20:28:21 weak 20:28:35 marmite is amazing 20:28:47 it's the sweet, sweet sanguine of lonely decay 20:29:04 oerjan: if you have two punctuation marks, say ' and ", you can use '" and "' as nesting brackets 20:29:08 but what does marmite taste like? 20:29:10 that's the way I normally program in Shove 20:29:18 olsner: It's yeast. 20:29:24 olsner: It tastes ... like yeast. 20:29:24 it tastes like nothing else 20:29:28 it doesn't taste like yeast! 20:29:43 I'm not actually sure what yeast tastes like in the abstract 20:29:46 olsner: I'm told that it tastes similar to the solid gunk that collects in the bottom of a wheat beer. 20:29:52 I know what bread tastes like, but am not sure which part of the taste is yeast-related 20:30:05 ais523, bread that hasn't been baked well enough tastes like yeast. 20:30:22 oh, just yeast then, I can relate to that 20:30:28 wet. soggy bread CAN taste like yeast 20:30:58 I should try marmite sometime but how 20:31:06 ais523, we were talking about pokemon chess yesterday 20:31:32 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Compressed_fresh_yeast_-_1.jpg 20:31:40 that's what I imagine marmite is now 20:31:43 what do you think of making a meta-game around chess which makes some pieces not attackable by other pieces depending on the meta-game happening? 20:31:44 cheater_: was the conversation at all interesting? 20:31:53 and I think it defeats the point of chess 20:31:56 yes it was very interesting 20:32:21 zzo38 also mentioned the possibility of having "elemental chess" 20:32:30 where pieces have elements/colors/whatever 20:32:46 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:33:20 ais523, marmite has the consistence of very sticky very dark brown honey 20:33:27 Each one corresponds to a different basic energy card in pokemon card 20:33:31 I know its consistency, that's obvious from looking at it 20:33:49 it tastes like maybe salty toffee or something 20:33:51 i don't know 20:33:51 zzo38: but the basic Pokémon card types don't follow a sensible elemental rock-paper-scissors table 20:33:54 it's salty. 20:33:57 because each represents multiple console types 20:33:58 goes well with toast. 20:34:15 so you have, say, some water-energy Pokémon weak to grass-energy Pokémon moves, and some weak to electric-energy Pokémon moves 20:34:19 ais523: Well yes, it is true. Different card have different weak/resist depending on things too 20:34:28 Yes that is true 20:34:37 zzo38: the weak/resist mostly just reflects what the weaknesses and resistances are in the console game 20:35:19 we have also mentioned the option of playing a round of pokemon every time two chess pieces are in conflict 20:35:24 who wins keeps the square 20:35:31 That is insane 20:35:35 why 20:35:43 or rather.. 20:35:46 why would it NOT BE? 20:36:02 You could do that but combining it with rules about what cards are selected at random depending on the pieces and on other things too, such as the energy types, and so on 20:36:19 hmm yes 20:36:31 so a grass energy piece could only use grass energy cards 20:36:37 and you'd shuffle and pick out 3 grass energy cards 20:36:41 and same for the other piece 20:36:48 which would be e.g. water energy 20:36:50 well, most moves allow off-color energy too 20:36:55 and then you play this way 20:37:09 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 20:37:10 moves that represent Normal-type moves normally allow you to use any energy, others typically require 1 or 2 oncolor energy 20:37:27 Yes some attacks in the cards allow you to use any energy, or only partially the correct energy and others can be any one. 20:38:21 what about using the proximity of other pieces 20:38:28 say if your attacking piece is water energy 20:38:50 but you have a grass energy piece in proximity to the square being attacked 20:38:50 I suppose you could make something like that too. 20:38:56 then you also get a grass card 20:39:12 OK. Perhaps that can also be used. 20:39:37 that would be a totally different game! 20:40:41 You can also do things such as use different board sizes, or whatever; note that in shogi game you have 9x9 board and you can capture opponent's pieces later you can put them back on the board and use them as your own pieces. 20:41:12 why do you? 20:41:40 unlike zzo38, I prefer the console game to the card game 20:41:43 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 20:46:53 That is OK, I suppose, different people can prefer different thing. 20:47:46 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 20:53:06 you two are like yin and yang. 20:55:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:57:03 Are you able to help more with this? I remember coppro was able to answer my questions to the best way. But, is anyone else? Any idea? https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/texnicard/wiki/Dangelo_Programming_Language 20:57:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:59:48 Please add stuff if you have, you can type it directly on the wiki although you probably need an account (it is not up to me that makes you require an account) 21:01:53 It is not moving around in the same space I am 21:02:10 it is a multidimensional being, haven't you read H2G2? 21:02:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:06:15 hoogle is even worse than haskell 21:06:30 are we _sure_ someone hasn't hacked lament's account? 21:07:06 did he said that in #esoteric or somewhere else? 21:07:12 here 21:07:53 you can't draw any conclusions from what anyone says in here, I think :) 21:08:01 I am trying to design the project, something related to Haskell, and to TeXnicard, and Magic: the Gathering, and even Inform 7, and a few other things that nobody knows, and hopefully design the proper programming language for this purpose. And then make some things with it including Magic: the Gathering rules, and possibly even a roguelike game. 21:08:13 Would you know anything about this please? 21:09:46 oerjan: a troll once came to Esolang using a name which was incredibly similar to "Lament" 21:10:12 ais523: lament is on account lament, though 21:11:56 Does pokemon card not have any IMPOSTOR BILL card or OPPONENT POTION card? Are you going to use this card if it is? 21:14:39 although not from the same IP as when making that comment, so there's no proof it was the real lament who said that i guess 21:15:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:17:39 Play pokemon card with nearly random deck construction. 21:18:35 -!- elliott has joined. 21:19:13 That's odd 21:19:24 wut 21:19:34 Python's shouting at me because it all of a sudden hates the word "def" 21:19:51 The third def into the program 21:20:11 The def that broke the camel's back. 21:20:15 You can allow any evolution card even if it does not match, as long as it is of the same energy type of the card it is played on, and must be the correct stage number, and not more than the maximum for any of the cards underneath. You can also evolve into the card that is labeled as doing so regardless of energy type. 21:20:46 do snakes have backs 21:20:57 Snakes have nothing but 21:21:05 (Though I suppose that would be more appropriate for Perl.) 21:21:13 perl has sub though doesn't it 21:21:52 Sure, keyword-substitute appropriately first. 21:21:57 Found the problem 21:22:08 I had missed an ] on the previous line 21:22:10 indentation? oh 21:22:36 For example, you can evolve Seel into Misty's Starmie but no further. If you play Charmeleon on Ponyta there is no more evolve (because Ponyta only evolves once), but you can play Abra->Kadabra->Gengar because both cards allow evolution up to Stage 2 cards. 21:23:22 These would be the rules only when using nearly random deck construction, and should not apply in the normal game. 21:23:59 06:25:33: I'm going to continue repeating this 21:23:59 06:25:41: because there exists a branch of mathematics 21:23:59 06:25:47: called type theory 21:23:59 06:25:52: remarkably, it is the theory of types 21:23:59 06:26:02: and you're pulling a Sgeo here 21:24:00 06:26:53: What, by being practical? :P 21:24:09 coppro: for once i am in complete agreement with you, also this hurts to read 21:24:25 i agree with elliott 21:24:28 This last night's logs. 21:24:35 Also I agree with Sgeo. 21:24:37 Reinventing stuff is a stereotype of me? 21:24:38 I have made a lot of thinking about type theory in the past but I have not know about actual mathematical type theory much. 21:24:49 Sgeo: 21:24:49 06:28:24: no, by saying "I wonder what happens if X?" 21:24:49 06:28:29: and hearing "it's been done" 21:24:49 06:28:40: and going "Maybe it involves Y?" 21:24:51 06:28:48: and hearing "No, it doesn't." 21:24:53 06:28:53: and going "If it had Y, you'd need Z" 21:24:55 06:29:02: and hearing "Maybe, but it doesn't have Y." 21:25:27 I honestly don't recall doing something like that. Example please? 21:25:51 ask coppro im busy logreading 21:26:22 Is coppro on here today? 21:26:50 And what timezone is the messages you have repeated now? 21:28:04 UTC 21:28:31 OK. 21:29:41 zzo38: He is 21:30:17 11:52:38: How about "TIARA" 21:30:17 11:53:09: Which stands for "TIARA Is A Recursive Algorithm" 21:30:18 11:54:26: I thought you'd say s/Algorithm/Acronym/ 21:30:18 11:54:42: Yeah, that's what I meant 21:30:25 EVEN _I_ INVENTED "TIARA" 21:30:56 Spoiler: I ended up calling it MIBBLLII 21:31:01 12:23:17: 'This system was discovered' 21:31:02 12:23:22: I'm pretty sure you can't discover maths guys 21:31:08 "invent" is not really that much more appropriate... 21:31:35 I invented topoi in associative assembly spaces 21:31:41 AAAAAAAAAAAAa 21:31:43 12:29:20: also, because its specification is tiny but working with it is hugely difficult, it's easy to write a compiler/interpreter for and it's still turing complete 21:31:43 Working with BF is easier than in many esolangs 21:31:43 THE MOUSE 21:31:44 IS RIGHT 21:31:45 Most, even 21:31:47 IN FRONT OF ME 21:31:48 ARGH 21:31:49 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAaa 21:31:51 Phantom_Hoover: what 21:31:51 aAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa7 21:31:52 WHY 21:31:55 IS THIS AIHESFAWEKFN 21:31:55 is it 21:31:57 a squeaky 21:31:57 WHY 21:31:58 mouse 21:31:58 or 21:31:58 a 21:31:59 AM 21:31:59 computer 21:32:00 I 21:32:01 mouse 21:32:03 OUTSMARTED 21:32:04 BY 21:32:05 A 21:32:06 MOUSE 21:32:10 it 21:32:12 it is the squeaky kind 21:32:12 Phantom_Hoover is being taunted by a mouse his cat brought in 21:32:13 right 21:32:17 IT HID 21:32:18 because 21:32:19 i suggest 21:32:19 you 21:32:19 IN THE CURTAINS 21:32:20 adopt it 21:32:21 IT WAS LIKE 21:32:24 because 21:32:25 there is 21:32:27 A HORROR MOIE 21:32:28 Phantom_Hoover: Marry it 21:32:28 no other 21:32:29 possible 21:32:32 action 21:32:32 relating 21:32:33 *MOVIE 21:32:33 to 21:32:34 things 21:32:35 that 21:32:37 attack 21:32:39 humans 21:32:39 A horror mouse. 21:32:41 with 21:32:43 cuteness 21:32:44 I WAS LIKE 21:32:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving"). 21:32:45 ok 21:32:49 why are we talking like this Phantom_Hoover 21:32:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:32:57 THE MOUSE DID THAT 21:33:06 I WAS LIKE 21:33:11 13:20:06: https://gist.github.com/1136780 21:33:11 13:20:10: I had way too much time on my hands. 21:33:11 13:20:23: Guess how evil.py works. 21:33:15 YOU'RE UNDER THE CURTAIN I HAVE YOU YOU LITTLE BASTARD 21:33:16 Lymee: huh, I gave up on this 21:33:20 Lymee: can I see evil.py? 21:33:23 Soon: /nick Phantom_Mouse. 21:33:24 THEN I LOOKED 21:33:28 AND IT WAS GONE 21:33:37 elliott: http://i.imgur.com/mevGN.jpg 21:33:40 they're FAST 21:33:47 elliott, I think she used C memory stuff. 21:33:54 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, that's what I tried. 21:33:59 elliott: There's some possibly-related hackego ctypes fluff later in the log. 21:34:08 https://gist.github.com/1136828 21:34:09 heh 21:34:31 14:00:53: hmmm, so you could use unsafeCoerce to artificially change the phantom type of a GADT, right? 21:34:31 14:00:56: with no issues. 21:34:31 Don't... don't do this. 21:34:41 wow, Apple was the most valuable US company, for a short period of time, according to the stock market 21:34:41 I don't think "no issues" is guaranteed at all. 21:34:45 that... makes no sense at all 21:34:49 Because it makes it totally inconsistent. 21:35:00 ais523: Apple stock is really good 21:35:02 oh god 21:35:04 or so I gather 21:35:09 i cant see the mouse any more 21:35:11 elliott: it's good because people think it's good 21:35:20 its behind me isnt it 21:35:25 the stock market is about doing what everyone else will do, but a few days earlier 21:35:27 elliott: but, it's essentially the same kind of unsafeCoerce question you asked me yesterday :P 21:35:30 ais523: right, I guess the iPod and iPhone have nothing to do with it :) 21:35:50 oerjan: yes, but I made sure not to overstep the guarantees GHC offers 21:35:52 they do have something to do with it, but even if Apple cornered the entire market, I imagine they still wouldn't be as profitable as, say, ExxonMobil, who they overtook 21:36:04 oerjan: and it's _not_ the same, because I never tried to destruct a constructor with the wrong type??? 21:36:05 like 21:36:14 Our cat once dropped a still-mostly-alive mouse to my father's bed one morning while summer-vacatitioning. The nicest way to wake up? 21:36:17 data Foo a where X :: a -> Foo A; Y :: a -> Foo B 21:36:22 unsafeCoerce (X 9) :: Foo B 21:36:25 how are you going to destruct that 21:36:31 only by coercing it back 21:36:34 which makes the whole thing pointless 21:36:44 I think CakeProphet wants a type variable that doesn't appear on the RHS, i.e. a real phantom type 21:36:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:36:51 elliott: well the thing is phantom types without type classes should have absolutely _no_ effect on the runtime representation... 21:36:51 in which case a GADT, and unsafeCoerce, are totally unnecessary 21:37:14 oerjan: well it's only safe if you have like 21:37:24 data Foo a where X :: forall b. a -> Foo b 21:37:27 -!- augur has joined. 21:37:28 which avoids like one reconstruction?? 21:37:37 and if it's recursive then unsafeCoerce could save time 21:37:39 but maybe... 21:37:42 you don't... 21:37:43 need... 21:37:46 the type variable... if you do that... 21:38:24 why does cakeprohpet want this 21:38:43 14:32:58: `run echo "#include " > test.c 21:38:44 14:33:01: No output. 21:38:44 14:33:15: `run echo "int main() {PyFunctionObject f;printf(\"%u\",((unsigned int)&(f.ob_item))-((unsigned int)&f));}" > test.c 21:38:45 > vs. >> 21:38:46 : parse error on input `>>' 21:39:10 14:34:37: `gcc -o test test.c 21:39:10 cough 21:40:13 data Foo a where X :: forall b. a -> Foo b <-- um i don't think the two a's have anything to do with each other if you use that syntax 21:40:34 oerjan: oh shut up, you know what i mean :D 21:40:41 oh um 21:40:46 data Foo a b where X :: forall b. a -> Foo a b 21:40:48 YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN 21:40:58 well i might be a little closer now 21:41:35 basically unsafeCoerce to change a phantom type is useful _only_ if you have some kind of polymorphism on the phantom type 21:41:44 otherwise you can't do anything with it without coercing it back 21:41:54 and if you _do_ have polymorphism, it's always just an optimisation 21:42:02 because you could just reconstruct the value instead 21:42:36 Does it mean something when a channel starts with ##? 21:42:44 16:19:50: itidus20: yes, see OverloadedStrings in Haskell. 21:42:44 16:19:56: I have found several uses that the designer did not intend. 21:42:44 16:20:00: :) 21:42:44 16:20:17: ask elliott about it. 21:42:44 stop getting on my bad side :| 21:42:46 NihilistDandy: yes, "about" 21:42:50 Ah 21:42:50 NihilistDandy: it means that the channel wasn't officially approved by the people who own the name 21:42:55 # channels are meant to have an official group registration blah 21:43:02 I see 21:43:05 and we'll get booted in to ##esoteric once the new system is up unless we can make a claim to the name 21:43:09 e.g. #feather-lang (which I own) versus ##nomic (which Peter Suber doesn't own) 21:43:10 which I think we can do, but it's not certain 21:43:15 elliott: actually, I looked at their name claiming guide 21:43:22 me too, but go on 21:43:22 and I think either us or cpressey has the best claim to the name 21:43:26 elliott: You have a wiki. I don't see why not 21:43:32 NihilistDandy: we have the "Esolang" wiki 21:43:36 blah 21:43:39 ais523: cpressey has said that we have a claim to the name 21:43:45 elliott: oh, in that case there's no issue 21:43:45 ais523: in here, publicly 21:43:58 so I'm sure he'd agree that we should have it 21:44:00 Tulessa. 21:44:03 I wouldn't have expected him to boot us out anyway 21:44:07 or her, I suppose 21:44:12 X-D 21:44:13 I don't completely know cpressey's gender beyond doubt 21:44:26 tswett: Odessa. 21:44:26 and you can't tell from the name 21:44:33 -!- pingveno_ has quit (Quit: leaving). 21:44:39 oh, there's another catseye esolang out 21:44:41 THE MOUSE IS BACK FOR CHRISTS SAKE 21:44:45 I suppose of all the people in here, other than me, I'm most confident about Gregor's gender 21:44:48 Phantom_Hoover: ADOPT IT 21:44:55 although it's hard to be completely sure wrt anyone 21:44:55 elliott, HOW 21:45:00 O_o 21:45:02 -!- pingveno has joined. 21:45:05 elliott: what's it called? 21:45:08 ais523: I'm sure I've affirmed my gender to you several times 21:45:10 ais523: Xoomonk 21:45:18 "Xoomonk is a programming language in which malingering updatable stores are first-class objects. Malingering updatable stores unify several language constructs, including procedure activations, named parameters, and object-like data structures. 21:45:18 " 21:45:20 elliott, YOU COULD BE LYING 21:45:21 I guess it's not meant to be an esolang 21:45:22 YOU COULD BE 21:45:23 but it totally is 21:45:24 A MOUSE 21:45:30 Phantom_Hoover: Dammit how did you know. 21:45:40 elliott, THE RABBITS TIPPED ME OFF 21:45:52 YOU WOULD OF COURSE HAVE AN AFFECTION FOR YOUR FELLOW RODENTS 21:45:53 elliott: that's a fun set of things to unify 21:46:18 Phantom_Hoover: RAAAAAAAAGE 21:46:29 (Anyone who doesn't know why I am raging is Not My Friend.) 21:47:02 * oerjan sulks in the corner 21:47:15 oerjan: RABBITS ARE LAGOMORPHS 21:47:46 i thought that was a subsomething of rodents 21:47:48 NO 21:47:53 THEY ARE NOT RODENT 21:47:56 RABBITS ARE NOT RODENTS 21:48:07 "Though these mammals can resemble rodents (order Rodentia) and were classified as a superfamily in that order until the early twentieth century, they have since been considered a separate order. For a time it was common to consider the lagomorphs only distant relatives of the rodents, to whom they merely bore a superficial resemblance." 21:48:09 NOT RODENTS 21:48:12 LAGOMORPHS 21:48:30 I find it hard to imagine rabbits as rodents at all 21:48:37 they don't look much like mice or squirrels 21:49:35 pika pika 21:49:43 pikachu is a lagomorph 21:50:12 whats a pokemon hlep 21:50:18 ais523: see: capybara 21:51:15 Lagomorph used to be considered a subset of rodent but now it isn't. 21:51:29 a hlep is a ravenous beast with a cleft palate 21:51:38 I see. 21:52:01 Is it just me, or is there only one decent course in Finnish in the world? 21:52:05 And also that you already mentoined what I said. 21:52:08 aka harelip 21:52:12 OH GOD I AM IN A DARK ROOM WITH THE MOUSE 21:52:22 Is it on fire? 21:52:32 Well I guess no, or the room woulnd't be dark. 21:52:35 Oletko tulessa? 21:52:36 Be right back, dinner. 21:52:46 Wait, wait. 21:52:55 Drat. 21:52:56 elliott: Pikachu is a mouse 21:53:00 Okay, my MIBBLLII CAT program didn't work 21:53:09 Oliko tulessa? 21:53:13 NihilistDandy: No pikachu is a pikachu. 21:53:15 The first time, I asked, "Are you on fire?" 21:53:40 pikachu translates as "sparkle mouse" or something like that 21:53:49 Sparkle squeak 21:53:52 Taneb, CAN IT CATCH THIS MOUSE 21:53:53 elliott: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pikachu_(Pokémon) 21:54:01 Species: Mouse Pokemon 21:54:03 I used to be such a Pokemon nerd 21:54:12 NihilistDandy: DIE 21:54:17 Then Pokemon faded into Discworld 21:54:17 Taneb: why did you stop? 21:54:23 OH GOD I AM IN A DARK ROOM WITH THE MOUSE <-- are you sure there really _is_ a mouse and you're not just having hallucinations? you _do_ seem a little psychotic about this... 21:54:28 NihilistDandy: Yes it says that, but the "Species:" is not really relevant for any purpose. 21:54:28 And Discworld into IWC 21:54:36 And IWC into MSA 21:54:37 oerjan: it is a cute panic 21:54:39 oerjan, my family said the mouse was there BUT THEY MAY HAVE LIED 21:54:42 s/MSA/MSPA/ 21:54:47 oerjan: GET IT 21:54:50 O KAY 21:54:50 zzo38: Except in distinguishing it from a lagomorph 21:54:51 (And in many cases neither is the weight/height, although it might be sometimes) 21:55:01 bulbapedia isn't necessarily canon on the question of rodent vs lagomorph 21:55:20 probably some 11yr old quickly wrote down mouse 21:55:30 itidus20: That's what it says in the game 21:55:35 Man, catching injured pigeons was way easier than this, 21:55:44 Phantom_Hoover: Use a bat 21:55:46 the english game isn't necessarily canon >.>; 21:55:54 you can only be sure by the original japanese 21:56:00 itidus20: That's not true in the least 21:56:23 translators can take liberties with things sometimes 21:56:44 i know how to solve this dilemma anyway 21:57:09 Pikachu is a ねずみポケモン 21:57:10 It doesn't matter. It says "mouse" so I think it is the actual data, but that doesn't mean that it means anything! 21:57:11 elliott: http://i.imgur.com/YkkBj.jpg 21:57:31 Oh god 21:57:42 I've lost the lid to my mouse capture device. 21:57:44 oerjan: heh 21:57:52 Phantom_Hoover: STOP IT ADOPT THE MOUSE AT ONCE 21:57:59 itidus20: the anime isn't canon either, incidentally 21:58:09 darn 21:58:09 elliott, HOW 21:58:14 itidus20: 分類 21:58:14 ねずみポケモン 21:58:37 The game, anime, everything, they do unconsistent things too. 21:58:38 I can only see unicode 0 due to my poor font choice but i will take your words for it now 21:58:40 I NEED TO CATCH IT FIRST 21:58:55 itidus20: It says, roughly, "Classification: Mouse Pokemon" 21:59:07 Phantom_Hoover: NO 21:59:09 JUST 21:59:10 TELL IT 21:59:15 This is a stupid conversation 21:59:18 THAT THIS LAND IS YOUR LAND 21:59:20 AND 21:59:22 LIVE IN THAT ROOM 21:59:22 ok thanks 21:59:23 TOGETHER 21:59:23 NihilistDandy: Yes, so it is the proper data. It is the actual data! However, it doesn't have any meaning. 21:59:39 Just because something is correct doesn't mean it is of any significance. 21:59:57 how to lure mice into mouse traps 22:00:00 MONNo 22:00:17 mouse traps not mousetraps 22:00:28 traps for mice, not those nasty hurty things 22:00:41 all your mouse are belong to us 22:00:42 DONT TRAP THEM,,,,, THAT IS RUDE 22:00:46 JUST 22:00:47 BOX THEM 22:00:48 or something 22:00:51 that is a nicer word 22:00:51 box is a trap 22:01:23 box makes me think the sport and packaging 22:01:27 is packaging a sport too 22:01:30 no i haev played monkey island two and you just need a cheese and a wooden box and string 22:01:31 and a stick 22:02:07 boxing a mouse is just plain mean 22:02:09 oerjan: have you used the stnadard haskell hughespj prettyprinting library outside of using text in lambdabot........... 22:02:19 no. 22:03:17 AAAAAAAAAAAa 22:03:18 I HAD IT 22:03:22 AND THEN I CHECKED FOR IT 22:03:25 AND IT GOT AWAQA$HEFTA78 22:03:29 awkyhgqaliukns\G2wf 22:03:32 did your box have a hole in it 22:03:37 No 22:03:43 did you lift the box 22:03:46 Yes 22:03:51 be 22:03:52 friends 22:03:52 with 22:03:55 the mouse 22:04:01 NO 22:04:11 flood room with 22:04:12 friend 22:04:13 fumes 22:04:30 Didn't you ever watch the fourth episode of the first series of Xialin Showdown? 22:04:33 The one with the mime? 22:04:36 friend mustard gas 22:04:42 -!- ais523 has left (" fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api"). 22:04:47 Taneb: Yes 22:05:11 THEN YOU KNOW WHAT Phantom_Hoover MUST DO 22:05:20 Hey, this client has tab completion 22:05:23 I DO 22:05:25 oops we did it, 22:05:29 ais523 ragepatted 22:05:32 Taneb: Welcome to the fucking future of 15 years ago 22:05:37 mice: worse than jesus 22:06:10 To #esoteric-mice? 22:06:30 new channel for every topic 22:06:32 every 22:06:33 topic 22:07:10 Cat brought another mouse but it's already dead 22:07:16 i will show it to the mouse 22:07:22 to lower its moral 22:07:23 e 22:07:26 and then they will be freinds 22:07:32 ?? 22:07:56 pikhq: help i told the tup people their code is invalidaed but theyre just ingore/// 22:08:02 monqy, no 22:08:10 then the mouse will renouce mousekined 22:08:16 and be my friend 22:08:36 Phantom_Hoover: MOUSEKIND ARE NICE. 22:08:51 I HATE PHANTOM HOOVER HE IS A TERRIBLE HORRIBLE EVIL BAD 22:09:10 We are the Bork. Resistance is futile. 22:09:20 `swedish Resistance is futile. 22:09:22 No output. 22:09:28 wat 22:09:32 oh 22:09:35 !swedish Resistance is futile. 22:09:36 Reseestunce-a is footeele-a. Bork Bork Bork! 22:10:25 that's not swedish :( 22:10:57 olsner, how would you know. 22:11:01 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:11:52 Haren är lagom orf 22:12:26 Phantom_Hoover: my knowledge in swedish matters is extensive 22:12:42 olsner invented swedish 22:12:46 oerjan: have you used the stnadard haskell hughespj prettyprinting library outside of using text in lambdabot........... 22:12:48 oh you said no 22:12:50 damminit, 22:13:01 is it a good library 22:13:14 elliott: Unnecessary loquaciousness is contraindicated. 22:14:03 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 22:14:12 monqy: is it a library if it is part of the stdlib,, 22:14:17 well it's in a different hackage package but 22:14:19 (to base) 22:14:37 it's in the haskell account on github and bugtracked as part of ghc..... 22:15:06 but is it 22:15:07 good 22:15:47 of course it is, it's been passed down the ages from the ancient masters of haskell 22:15:50 i dont know, if it can do what i want, then yes 22:16:17 basically i want 22:16:19 test = 22:16:19 (text "data" <+> text "FunTimes") <+> 22:16:19 ((equals <+> text "Foo") $$ (char '|' <+> text "Bar")) 22:16:21 but if it gets too long 22:16:23 the ancient haskell monks of the hindu kush 22:16:24 then i want it to do the same as 22:16:24 (though it doesn't seem to actually be used a lot, so maybe it's ungood in some ways) 22:16:36 test = 22:16:36 (text "data" <+> text "FunTimes") $$ nest 2 22:16:37 ((equals <+> text "Foo") $$ (char '|' <+> text "Bar")) 22:16:37 but i dont 22:16:40 know how to make that happen 22:17:05 the latter looks like 22:17:06 *Main> test 22:17:07 data FunTimes 22:17:07 = Foo 22:17:07 | Bar 22:17:09 the former looks like 22:17:15 data FunTimes = Foo 22:17:15 | Bar 22:17:27 and the thing with $$ is 22:17:30 if the argument to nest was high enough 22:17:32 so that 22:17:40 it would be further to the right than the s in FunTimes 22:17:44 it would omit the linebreak 22:17:46 which would be good 22:17:49 but the problem is that 22:17:49 then 22:17:51 when it breaks the line 22:17:54 it indents like 9 spaces..... 22:17:58 rather than just two... 22:21:19 > text "data" <+> text "FunTimes" 22:21:20 Ambiguous occurrence `<+>' 22:21:21 It could refer to either `Control.Arrow.<+>', i... 22:21:53 i thought i saw someone say once that they had worked on removing ambiguities in lambdabot... 22:22:11 they might wish to improve their methods. 22:22:25 is anything an instance of arrowplus 22:22:47 :t (Control.Arrow.<+>) 22:22:48 forall (a :: * -> * -> *) b c. (ArrowPlus a) => a b c -> a b c -> a b c 22:23:17 > text "data" Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ.<+> text "FunTimes" 22:23:19 data FunTimes 22:23:21 there's probably a MonadPlus m => ArrowPlus (Kleisli m) instance 22:23:25 yeah 22:23:32 it's "beside, with a space" 22:23:38 i want a interpreter that executes CLI HLT when you make a error in your code 22:23:44 lol 22:23:46 the one thing I like about arrowplus is how it's broken up into arrowzero and arrowplus 22:26:17 sllide: except you can't change the interrupt flag or halt in user mode 22:27:15 maybe sllide uses dos 22:30:27 mouse just wnet under sthe stofa aaaaaarrgghhh 22:30:35 its new home 22:30:45 friendship home 22:30:57 maybe 22:31:01 i can give it cheese? 22:31:08 friendship cheese 22:32:12 yes 22:32:36 i don't have any 22:32:43 wait 22:32:48 i have beetter idea 22:32:52 i will but the cheese 22:33:02 in front of the sova 22:33:04 and when the mouse 22:33:08 goes to get it 22:33:12 i catch it 22:33:50 drug cheese with friendship, mouse eats cheese, best friends forever 22:34:16 monqy: thatsm diehosnt :( 22:35:54 drug cheese with honesty 22:35:56 ^unscramble diehosnt 22:35:56 dtinesho 22:36:25 wha 22:36:28 ti 22:36:34 had it pinned down under the tabl 22:36:35 e 22:36:38 i made sure 22:36:42 that i could see it at all times 22:36:44 and yey 22:36:49 it excaped 22:36:51 how 22:36:55 ok 22:36:56 i ha e 22:36:58 best plan 22:37:02 i will wait 22:37:03 catlike 22:37:06 on my chair 22:37:09 and when it moves 22:37:15 at least you are making a great scientific confirmation of the theory that phantoms cannot catch mice 22:37:17 fling myself towards it and get the mouse box 22:37:27 oerjan, JUST YOPU WAIT 22:37:38 brb stakeouting 22:37:55 why do i have this feeling that atrocious spelling is spreading in the channel 22:38:12 oerjan: REAL DISTRESS IS BEGINNINGEGING, 22:38:14 LIFE IS NOW SERIOUS 22:38:25 IT IS A COMING OF AGE STROYROY 22:38:35 the age of aquarius 22:38:54 http://esolangs.org/wiki/R 22:38:58 this is fucking stupid and i want to kill it 22:39:04 by next june, everyone will be completely incomprehensible 22:39:13 oerjan, its the mose 22:39:14 we need cpressey 22:39:17 to write an article on the real R 22:39:19 so that we can move this 22:39:20 to 22:39:22 R (shit) 22:41:28 category:shameful 22:42:29 no we cannot ater it down 22:42:34 someone type five two three 22:42:40 five two three 22:43:39 when will he returne..... 22:43:47 no 22:43:47 as 22:43:48 numbers 22:43:50 fucker :( 22:43:53 ;_+: 22:44:02 ij 22:44:04 ok 22:44:11 i think 22:44:16 i will grow old 22:44:17 5 2 3 22:44:17 and die 22:44:19 and the mouse 22:44:27 will nibble on my grave 22:44:37 friendship grave 22:45:03 awwwwwwwwww friendship argargeve 22:45:19 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:45:33 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 22:45:54 so that R lang 22:46:16 oh, I saw that being posted to the wiki 22:46:19 I haven't looked at it yet, though 22:46:23 ais523: don't 22:46:25 oh right, I have 22:46:30 I just forgot about it in self-defence 22:46:30 try to not remember 22:46:42 the worst thing is, there could be a good article at [[R]] 22:46:44 I remember that it has lots of links to things that shouldn't be on the wiki 22:46:45 one written by cpressey :( 22:46:50 ais523, did the mouse make you ragequit. 22:46:56 on the premier IRC-bot language R :-P 22:47:10 what about the statistics lang? or is that insufficiently eso? 22:47:20 ais523: it's an IRC-bot language, not a statistics language 22:47:29 well, there's a non-eso lang called R too 22:47:38 ais523: https://bitbucket.org/catseye/rtype/overview 22:47:45 IRC bot language, not statistics. 22:47:51 (https://bitbucket.org/catseye/rtype/src/0ebaf62da919/bot.R) 22:48:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_%28programming_language%29 22:48:20 wow, I didn't realise GNU was responsible for itg 22:48:21 *it 22:48:25 ais523: yes, it's an IRC bot language 22:48:33 https://bitbucket.org/catseye/rtype/raw/0ebaf62da919/bot.R if you hate HTML too much to open a page with it 22:48:46 oh, you mean that cpressey wrote a bot in it? 22:48:54 YES WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY ITS INTENDED USE 22:48:58 I thought you were implying he'd invented a language for writing bots which had the same name 22:49:11 xform <- gsub('^:(.*?)\\!(.*?)\\s+PRIVMSG\\s+(.*?)\\s+\\:(.*?)$', '\\1\u2603\\2\u2603\\3\u2603\\4', line, perl=TRUE) 22:49:11 if (length(xform) == 0) { next } 22:49:11 if (xform != line) { 22:49:11 parts <- strsplit(xform, '\u2603', fixed=TRUE) 22:49:13 that's the amazing part 22:49:28 (it uses three ☃s to separate the fields because R is terrible at string handling) 22:49:55 snowman-separated data? 22:50:01 it's the standard 22:50:08 SSV 22:50:17 doesn't that break if there are snowmans in the original 22:50:21 or can you escape them somehow? 22:50:38 of course it breaks, you just have to avoid using three snowmans in your line and it should be OK 22:50:41 "Note that despite our extensive work to improve the functioning of the Java applet, there are known issues with it on Ubuntu 10. If you encounter these, try upgrading to Ubuntu 11, or try using your mom's computer." 22:50:46 chris.....i dont like ubuntu eleven.... 22:50:51 stop discriminating :( 22:51:11 what abunto alevem 22:51:20 jelp 22:51:25 * elliott reads cpressey talk about intricacies of commodore sixty-four emulation 22:52:06 ais523: hmm, two months until the next Ubuntu release, right? 22:52:28 probably 22:52:35 I've forgotten the schedule 22:52:40 I'm relatively confident that they'll get their DE fixed eventually 22:52:42 The 10/10 was just for 2010 22:52:44 and it's .04 and .10 22:52:49 It'll be on the 21st, I think 22:52:56 Taneb: Not two months exactly 22:53:09 ais523: OK, then I'd better jump ship sooner or later... 22:53:15 this version is bound to bitrot eventually, after all 22:53:31 I'm on the LTS version 22:53:37 what's this new DE 22:53:42 monqy: bad 22:53:46 how bad 22:53:47 bad how 22:53:48 once support's about to end, I'll upgrade to the current Ubuntu if it's usable, or probably Debian if it isn't 22:53:52 ais523: is 10.10 LTS? 22:54:02 supported until a few months before the end of the world, it seems 22:54:04 10.04 22:54:08 I think every 4th is an LTS 22:54:10 oh, right 22:54:11 so 8.04 to 10.04 22:54:23 isn't it every third? 22:54:30 Nope 22:54:34 I'm just wary of Debian because I'm sceptical of how well it'll work on this hardware OOTB 22:54:40 It might need a lot of hacking even to boot 22:54:50 is it really weird hardware? 22:54:57 ais523: it's Apple, so yes 22:55:04 and a relatively recent Apple model at that 22:55:20 is hte keybaord still broken 22:55:22 recent enough that Ubuntu 10.04 wouldn't even be able to connect to the internet with it, I think 22:55:30 well, without the separate, money-costing Ethernet adaptor 22:55:33 monqy: yes I'm going to fix that 22:55:40 just need to back up and start the lion installer 22:55:42 and then send it off 22:56:01 what wikll you do whale it's off 22:56:09 use my old laptop 22:56:16 (which runs Debian, FWIW) 22:56:26 elliott: the one that's almost the same as mine but an inch larger? 22:56:34 does the new ubuntu de have a name i want to see how bad it is 22:56:36 I wonder what the folks at Canonical will call 15.10 22:56:38 ais523: two inches 22:56:41 monqy: Unity 22:56:46 monqy: no dnont 22:57:13 elliott: presumably he means looking at screenshots/videos 22:57:15 I like Unity 22:57:15 rather than actually using it 22:57:18 I couldn't even use the latest Ubuntu with GNOME, because they'd made the mouse pointer move differently in some subtle way that made me utterly inaccurate 22:57:25 Taneb: you're a bad person who thinks bad things and has bad opinions :( 22:57:30 right. i don't want to use unity. i hate deskop environments. 22:57:30 and im crying 22:57:37 ...anyway, 22:57:47 I was thinking I could just reverse all the changes made to the mouse handling if I could find out what they were 22:57:53 unity and its range of technologies brings simplicity, power, and integration to both users and application developers. unity puts design, integration, and Free Software at the heart of delivering a powerful and attractive experience. 22:57:58 but then I realised that downgrading would leave me with basically the same system 22:58:01 and relieve me of my anger 22:58:04 I don't think it's unsalvageable, but I'm not confident it'll be salvaged in a plausible amount of time 22:58:11 monqy: technically Unity isn't a DE, just a shell for GNOME 22:58:19 nooo 22:58:23 i have to go to bed 22:58:29 mouse bed 22:58:30 friendship bed 22:58:37 It's tomorrow now 22:58:39 no 22:58:41 Grass Starter Special

Bulbasaur-
1/2 shot lime vodka
1/4 shot lime juice
1/4 shot melon liqueur 

Ivysaur-
1 shot lime vodka
1 shot lime juice
1 shot melon liqueur
1 shot sprite

Venusaur-
1 Bulbasaur
1 Ivysaur
1 shot lime vodka
1 shot lime juice
1 shot sprite 22:58:42 ais523: oh yeah, and the GNOME packages will presumably become GNOME 3 soon enough, now that they're being relegated to not being on the disc 22:58:45 the mouse will have to wait 22:58:48 Fucking shitty formatting 22:58:52 goodbye 22:59:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:59:22 I guess I'll probably just switch to Debian and maybe Xfce or possibly xmonad 22:59:31 monqy: what window manager do you ouse, help 22:59:32 i use xmonad 22:59:36 oh 22:59:47 elliott: xmonad plays badly with gnome-nm-applet 22:59:55 and pulseaudio, for that matter 23:00:04 ais523: I'm sure plenty of people use it with NetworkManager, it just won't work OOTB 23:00:07 and how recent is that info? 23:00:23 but, I don't like NetworkManager or PulseAudio, so I don't care much 23:00:42 googling brings up http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=843341 wrt networkmanager 23:00:48 I don't see how xmonad could mess up pulseaudio 23:01:06 ais523: but, umm, do you have a more specific bit of info than "plays badly"? 23:01:07 This is one such recording of playing pokemon card: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/record.1 23:01:13 elliott: it's what happened last time 23:01:22 ais523: what happened 23:01:23 elliott: pulseaudio just doesn't load when I load xmonad 23:01:27 presumably I'd hve to start it by hand 23:01:33 ais523: that... is not xmonad's fault? 23:01:35 that's your distro's fault 23:01:37 indeed 23:01:40 for not supplying start scripts with it 23:01:43 it isn't xmonad's fault at all, but it's still annoying 23:01:57 well, it seems disingenuous to respond to someone mentioning xmonad by blaming a distro issue on it 23:02:05 is the "problem" with nm-apple the same? 23:02:19 elliott: it's more that there's nowhere on the screen to put it 23:02:21 it's a really tiny icon 23:02:26 and xmonad gives it about half the screen 23:02:26 ais523: of course there is, if you run a tray program 23:02:36 well, xmonad isn't really convention over configuration... 23:02:39 even tray programs don't work well with xmonad 23:02:46 because they can't be placed easily either 23:02:47 sure they do, most people use it with one 23:02:55 I've tried starting gnome-panel, xmonad still gives it half the screen 23:02:55 yeah they work fine 23:03:15 might require some xmonad.hs twiddling 23:03:21 but trayer is minimalistic and works out of the box 23:03:56 ais523: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Xmonad/Frequently_asked_questions#Make_space_for_a_panel_dock_or_tray 23:04:12 thanks 23:04:25 I suppose I'm just annoyed at having to configure a DE 23:04:33 xmonad isn't a DE, is it? 23:04:46 it certainly doesn't claim to be one on its config page 23:05:00 well, it's not even a DE, and yet I still have to configure it! 23:05:00 ais523: I think the xmonad-contrib package has various "DWIM" configurations you can use in the xmonad config file 23:05:13 but I suspect most people don't use them 23:06:03 * elliott wonders if Yi is developed any more 23:07:06 seems not 23:07:09 :( 23:07:14 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 23:07:17 -!- elliott has joined. 23:07:22 I should rewrite leaden sometime :-P 23:07:32 what's leaden 23:07:32 no elliott, shut up, you're working on elliottcraft 23:07:38 monqy: a neditor 23:07:51 neditor what help 23:08:01 crey 23:08:01 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving"). 23:08:06 -!- elliott has joined. 23:08:10 t oedit files 23:08:15 why do i keep parting 23:08:16 disappointmnet/part 23:08:18 i'm not very smart :/ 23:08:33 is it a good editor 23:08:48 i don't know, i liked it?? in theory 23:09:48 i always forget why i don't use yi then i try it again then i remember then i forget 23:10:22 i never really liked yi.... it is not polished.... at all.... 23:10:31 that may be it 23:11:04 ais523: aha 23:11:07 ais523: delete [[R]] 23:11:12 ais523: copyvio 23:11:16 from where? 23:11:18 Wikipedia? 23:11:21 http://www.illogicopedia.org/wiki/R_(programming_language) 23:11:28 Content is available under Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 2.5 . 23:11:28 that would explain the broken links 23:11:38 same author? 23:11:46 ais523: different nick 23:11:53 and that same nick on illogicopedia is used on wikipedia by the same person 23:11:57 (or so they claim on their illogicopedia user page) 23:12:09 so the burden of proof is on them to say they're the same person using another nickname, which I doubt 23:12:11 ah, OK 23:12:26 i just use vim but sometimes i feel i should learn emacs and decide if i like it more but then i either get scared or never bother :'( 23:12:30 yay now we can tell them off sternly........ and pretend it is for copyvio....... (but it is for liking a terrible language....) 23:13:19 http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/User:Nerd42 23:13:34 the person behind R left uncyclopedia because sex isn't funny and they need content warnings and also Ribaldry Cycle??? 23:13:37 what is this 23:13:44 deleted, warned 23:15:50 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:16:18 -!- Taneb has joined. 23:16:37 thanks for catching that elliott 23:18:03 I wish I knew more about OpenGL internals so I could structure this change with more confidence 23:18:11 damn usermode :C 23:18:29 i'm afraid of opengl intenrals 23:18:47 me too 23:18:50 infernal opengl 23:19:03 and what change is this 23:19:23 This. Changes. Everything! 23:20:25 so what did the R page actually say? 23:20:31 bad things 23:20:33 you don't want to know 23:21:31 ok. fair enough. 23:26:19 -!- sllide has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:36:51 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:37:02 -!- copumpkin has joined. 23:46:13 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).