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00:23:39 <elliott> wow, "paragraph" actually meant 16 bytes on sixteen bit intel
00:34:38 * elliott appends http://hackage.haskell.org/package/gloss to the "To look at" list
00:34:45 <elliott> oh hmm it looks two dimensional
00:35:48 <monqy> yeah I looked at gloss too. I forget exactly why I didn't use it
00:35:52 <monqy> maybe I should look more at it
00:36:04 <elliott> look at it with the fiery power of a thousand suns...
00:36:22 * elliott considers looking at Frag sometime too :P
00:36:54 <elliott> my game is going to be SO AWESOME.
00:37:05 <monqy> elliottcraft or what
00:38:18 <Sgeo> elliott, I thought you said there were unsolved problems with FRP?
00:38:47 <elliott> well yes. but you can wing it.
00:38:58 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: tell thank you thanks thx ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete topic-cons topic-init topic-null topic-snoc topic-tail topic-tell type . ? @ ft v
00:39:01 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *) (f1 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1) => (a -> b) -> f1 (f a) -> f1 (f b)
00:39:07 <elliott> :t \f g -> (f Prelude..) Prelude.. g
00:39:08 <lambdabot> forall b c a a1. (b -> c) -> (a1 -> a -> b) -> a1 -> a -> c
00:39:26 <elliott> ?pl \f g -> (f Prelude..) Prelude.. g
00:42:03 <oerjan> ye olde horriblie broken parser
00:42:30 <oerjan> ($ Prelude..) is not legal syntax
00:44:58 <monqy> ?unpl flip ($ Prelude..) Prelude..
00:44:58 <lambdabot> Parse error at "Prelu..." (column 9)
00:47:15 * Phantom_Hoover concludes that Tindeck is entirely a Homestuck fansite.
00:55:30 <elliott> it existed before homestuck
00:55:44 <oerjan> ok, so a printer error more than a parser error
00:56:14 <oerjan> ?pl \f g -> (f hm) hm g
00:56:37 <Phantom_Hoover> But there are about 3 tracks on 'popular now' which aren't Homestuck-related.
00:57:09 <oerjan> ?pl \f g -> hm (hm f) g
00:59:42 <Sgeo> I should put my karaoke on tindeck
01:00:31 <monqy> I still had that until like yesterday
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01:09:04 <monqy> i forgot i didn't move it from my downloads directory and then i cleared my downloads directory :'(
01:12:04 * Sgeo decides to just look up the answer for VVVVVV's I Love You
01:15:27 <Sgeo> Oh come on, I thought I tried that
01:19:24 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, VVVVVV is one of the games in Humble Indie Bundle 3
01:20:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone do me a favour after I quit and @tell lambdabot to remind me.
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01:32:41 <evincar> @tell Phantom_Hoover Get that thing.
01:32:52 <evincar> Well, that's taken care of.
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01:48:25 <evincar> So I finished Gödel, Escher, Bach. I found it off-puttingly clever and absurdly long for the subject matter.
01:48:35 <evincar> Those interested, discuss.
01:49:39 <zzo38> Yes I have read that book too. I notice many things. Even it mentioned in the bibliography, is a book that doesn't even exist. There is many references to copper,silver,gold (can you find it?) and a lot of other things. I like this book too.
01:51:38 <evincar> It was...something. I feel like it was just written in a "ho ho aren't I clever" sort of way merely for the sake of it.
01:51:43 <evincar> It doesn't necessarily obscure the point.
01:51:52 <evincar> But it certainly makes it longer and more irritating to get to the point.
01:51:54 <quintopia> the interludes were amusing as clever stories yes
01:52:10 <quintopia> it was good to know more details of godel's proof
01:52:22 <quintopia> but other than that i didnt really learn anything from it
01:53:13 * Sgeo wants recommendations for Gutenberg Project books to read
01:53:14 <quintopia> and yeah, i spread the reading of it over months because it was kind of tedious
01:53:39 <quintopia> sgeo: have you read all the classics yet?
01:54:03 <zzo38> The entire book it makes many things. I happen to like this book. I have the Vintage edition. Find all the secret messages and everything else in this book including everything wrong with it and so on.
01:54:08 <evincar> quintopia: I did it in a couple days because otherwise I wouldn't've bothered continuing with it.
01:54:11 <Sgeo> Not sure I'd be interested in classical fiction
01:54:25 <quintopia> if youve finished with the english language classics, start in on the icelandic language classics. Njalssaga is on PG i think
01:54:36 <Sgeo> Unless maybe some humorous classical fiction?
01:55:25 <zzo38> Yes, Alice in Wonderland; very good.
01:56:15 <Sgeo> Read Flatland a while ago. Tried to get the PG version, doesn't seem to work well
01:56:43 <Sgeo> I know Jules Verne is science fiction, but... hm
01:57:11 <evincar> It's much more...interesting. ;)
01:57:31 <elliott> hot square on square action
01:57:34 <evincar> In any case, Flatland is bothersome not for what it is.
01:57:46 <evincar> But rather for what people interpret it to mean.
01:58:07 <evincar> Rather like Huxley's work, it gets misinterpreted by people who miss the point but use the work to make their own faux-points.
01:58:11 <quintopia> flatland is interesting if you understand it as a commentary on victorian culture
01:58:34 <quintopia> sort of like gullivers travels (also recommend)
02:13:00 <elliott> <evincar> So I finished Gödel, Escher, Bach. I found it off-puttingly clever and absurdly long for the subject matter.
02:13:15 <elliott> it is a bunch of confused rambling leading up to a stupid "BRAINS = RECURSION DOOD" non-conclusion
02:13:31 <elliott> also see http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Chris_Pressey#G.C3.B6del.2C_Escher.2C_Bach:_An_Eternal_Golden_Braid :P
02:14:10 <elliott> it should have just been a book of achilles/tortoise dialogues :)
02:14:57 <MDude> Zombies sure do love recursion.
02:15:26 <zzo38> The dialogues is good, but so is the other things. I think it is very good although you would have to think of these things various things mentioned, see if you can figure it out or just have your own opinions about these things, you might agree/disagree whatever. But it has dialogues too and also other things, such as art and music.
02:16:00 <elliott> Death penalty could be debated in Commons after e-petition calls
02:16:00 <elliott> Leader of Commons says ignoring topics raised by new scheme allowing submissions would be unfair to public
02:16:58 <zzo38> And even the various jokes, secret message and partially obscured references maybe you can find, and descriptions of typographical number theory and the author's own opinions of various ideas, and many wordplays, even a well annotated bibliography, etc. Is good!
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03:17:23 <Sgeo> I think I'll just watch a blind LP of VVVVVV
03:17:29 <Sgeo> It sounds a bit difficult
03:28:04 <elliott> as opposed to playing it??
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03:42:18 <monqy> im infer that blind lps of vvvvvv are hard to watch because they are painful because they are awful
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04:08:52 <zzo38> ARMCUBLENS SCANBLUREM LAMNUBRECS
04:09:32 <zzo38> Are these real words?
04:09:48 <elliott> almost as real as word 'monqy'
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04:19:09 <elliott> http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/07/mork-keeps-on-giving-when-the-database-worms-eat-into-your-murder-trial/
04:37:28 <monqy> [Mork] was developed ... with the aim of creating a minimal database replacement that would be reliable, flexible, and efficient, and use a file format close to plain text.
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05:01:47 <elliott> monqy: oh man have you not
05:02:00 <elliott> monqy: http://www.jwz.org/blog/2004/03/when-the-database-worms-eat-into-your-brain/
05:02:17 <monqy> i read that one (i followed the link from the one about murder trial)
05:03:17 <elliott> "In case the true comedy of this part isn't apparent: he's clearly going to all this trouble to hyper-compress this file, what with the lookup tables for every identifier, right? And then, when writing out strings, he doesn't write them as UTF-8: he writes them as raw wchar_t strings. If he was writing them as raw bytes, that would multiply his file size by either 2 or 4 (depending on how big wchar_t is -- but wait! He doesn't write them raw, he
05:03:17 <elliott> writes them A) hex encoded and B) with a $ before each hex byte! So even on 16-bit wchar_t systems, he's tripled the file size."
05:05:24 <elliott> monqy: but......................
05:05:59 <monqy> assuming they exist
05:07:05 <elliott> the .pl is a blog ,,, in itself,,,
05:07:45 <pikhq_> And they WONTFIX'd it? *shudder*
05:08:12 <pikhq_> There's so *many* alternatives to that shit that'd be better.
05:08:57 <pikhq_> Sqlite, Berkeley DB, CSV, JSON, *XML*, a shell script, a Brainfuck script, a Lazy K script, ...
05:09:12 <elliott> pikhq_: Mork is finally gone in Firefox seven
05:09:16 <elliott> It hasn't been used regularly since three
05:09:29 <elliott> It's only in current versions as a converter, IIRC
05:09:43 <pikhq_> elliott: Praise be to (eventual) sanity.
05:09:52 <elliott> so, umm, does anyone know how this happened?
05:09:54 <elliott> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/08/the-british-government-has-endorsed.ars
05:11:51 <pikhq_> Probably Murdoch stopped paying for hookers for members of Parliament long enough for them to decide to act in the interests of the country.
05:14:23 <elliott> The government is not exactly on speaking terms with Murdoch right now :-P
05:16:32 <pikhq_> Ours decided to go back to ignoring Murdoch, preferring to take the economy hostage for a bit before going on vacation, leaving the Federal Aviation Administration not running for a month.
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05:48:25 <pikhq> Hmm. In theory, Linux could have as good backwards compatibility as Microsoft tends to, regarding ABI...
05:49:34 <pikhq> I wonder if it'd be worthwhile to try and set up a scheme whereby a modern distro could pull that off.
05:49:46 <pikhq> "Why yes, it runs Netscape! 0.93!"
05:51:16 <Lymee> pikhq, arn't the syscalls rather stable?
05:51:48 <pikhq> Lymee: Exceptionally.
05:52:06 <pikhq> Lymee: What you need to do to pull this off is all in userspace.
05:52:27 <elliott> elliott@katia:~$ wget ftp://archive.netscape.com/archive/navigator/3.04/shipping/english/unix/linux12/navigator_gold_complete/netscape-v304-export.x86-unknown-linux-elf.tar.gz
05:52:38 <Lymee> How stable is glibc?
05:52:57 <pikhq> elliott: http://home.mcom.com/archives/
05:53:09 <pikhq> Lymee: Irrelevant; we're talking Linux libc.
05:53:27 <elliott> elliott@katia:~$ wget http://home.mcom.com/archives/3/netscape-v304-export.x86-unknown-linux-elf.tar.gz
05:53:50 <elliott> 0.93 is earliest Linux version, it seems
05:54:07 <elliott> that netscape tgz is a tarbomb
05:54:34 <pikhq> With, apparently, a dependency on libc4 (and, hence, an a.out ld.so and the a.out binfmt module)
05:54:51 <elliott> bash: ./netscape: No such file or directory
05:55:03 <elliott> why would they even dynamically link it.
05:55:10 <elliott> libc.so.6 => /lib32/libc.so.6 (0xf7433000)
05:55:17 <elliott> ok, the only thing I'm missing is... libdl?
05:55:35 <pikhq> You'll want libc5. Which shouldn't be *too* hard to hunt down.
05:55:41 <elliott> pikhq: um but ldd says six is ok
05:55:42 <pikhq> Gentoo still packages it. :)
05:55:47 <elliott> libc.so.6 => /lib32/libc.so.6 (0xf7433000)
05:56:01 <fizzie> That's not "okay", that means "references to both".
05:56:05 <elliott> elliott@katia:~/netscape$ apt-cache search libc5
05:56:08 <fizzie> Probably the .6 comes from some other library.
05:56:33 <pikhq> elliott: http://archive.debian.net/sarge/libc5
05:56:55 <elliott> http://archive.debian.net/sarge/i386/libc5/filelist
05:56:58 <elliott> ok, I'll just surgically extract it
05:57:09 <pikhq> http://archive.debian.net/sarge/ldso You might want this, too.
05:57:16 <elliott> oh goody, it's all fourohfoured
05:57:21 <elliott> I guess I need to find the archive server
05:57:41 <pikhq> http://archive.debian.org/debian/pool/main/libc/libc/libc5_5.4.46-15_i386.deb
05:57:56 <pikhq> And http://archive.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/ld.so/ldso_1.9.11-15_i386.deb
05:58:35 <pikhq> Also, I suspect you could just barely *build* libc5.
05:58:54 <pikhq> Though you'd probably want to use GCC 3 to be safe.
05:59:58 <elliott> elliott@katia:~/netscape$ LD_LIBRARY_PATH=lib:usr/lib ./netscape
05:59:58 <elliott> bash: ./netscape: No such file or directory
06:00:03 <elliott> ldd says all its dependencies are filled
06:00:23 <pikhq> It's probably missing ld.so.
06:00:29 <pikhq> Why do you think I linked to it?
06:00:54 <elliott> libdl.so.1 => lib/libdl.so.1 (0xf7545000)
06:01:12 <pikhq> ... /lib/ld-linux.so.1?
06:01:59 <elliott> /lib/ld-linux.so.1 => /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0xf773a000)
06:02:03 <elliott> that's not thirty-two bit is it
06:02:31 <pikhq> It's also not the requested dynamic linker.
06:02:43 <pikhq> Linux will try to execute /lib/ld-linux.so.1.
06:03:14 <pikhq> Hence the "No such file or directory".
06:03:22 <elliott> $ LD_LIBRARY_PATH=lib:usr/lib /lib/ld-linux.so.2 ./netscape
06:03:22 <elliott> ./netscape: Symbol `_res' has different size in shared object, consider re-linking
06:03:22 <elliott> ./netscape: Symbol `_sys_errlist' has different size in shared object, consider re-linking
06:03:51 <pikhq> You want http://archive.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/ld.so/ldso_1.9.11-15_i386.deb
06:04:02 <pikhq> Specifically, /lib/ld-linux.so.1 from it.
06:04:09 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, you're in Colorado Springs, right?
06:04:12 <elliott> And oh, didn't realise it had that.
06:04:21 <elliott> pikhq: Just was reminded of you by http://cdsmith.wordpress.com/2011/08/03/haskell-for-kids-introduction/
06:04:24 <elliott> ("You’re asking about the town for my class? Colorado Springs, CO.")
06:04:25 <fizzie> I wouldn't be surprised if you hit problems related to having some of your shared libs built on glibc (the new ones) and some code built on libc5, even if you got all that stuff to resolve.
06:04:40 <fizzie> I'd just try to do that sort of stuff in a completely-from-the-sarge-age chroot or something.
06:04:45 <elliott> elliott@katia:~/netscape$ LD_LIBRARY_PATH=lib:usr/lib lib/ld-linux.so.1 ./netscape
06:04:59 <elliott> fizzie: sarge age is only 2005, you know; I'd want something much older.
06:05:19 <fizzie> Well, yes, but something based on libc5.
06:05:32 <pikhq> elliott: What's the list of libraries for that, anyways?
06:05:55 <pikhq> LD_LIBRARY_PATH=$(pwd)/lib:$(pwd)/usr/lib might help.
06:07:08 <elliott> Only one thing for it... GDB!
06:07:27 <elliott> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
06:07:44 <fizzie> debootstrap in a 'potato' or something. (Note: not sure if it can actually install something that old.)
06:09:45 <elliott> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=112778
06:10:46 <fizzie> Not sure how well its oldlibs/libc5 thing goes either, but even hamm is libc6-based. 'bo' has a libc5 in base, but...
06:11:54 <fizzie> "So ok, I went to install Bo:# debootstrap bo /mnt/hda7 http://archive.debian.org/debian-archive/
06:11:54 <fizzie> E: No such script: /usr/lib/debootstrap/scripts/bo
06:11:54 <fizzie> Doh! I didn't know a script would be required. Suprisingly though, it appears that there are scripts that will let me go all the way back to Slink."
06:12:09 <elliott> fizzie: You want me to go for buzz, maybe? :-)
06:12:19 <fizzie> I don't think there's binaries for it in archive.debian.org.
06:12:27 <fizzie> But of course if you *want*...
06:13:16 <pikhq> How's 'bout Gentoo's package?
06:14:29 <elliott> "Ahh, I've found out that apt-get wasn't included until the release of Slink in '98! I may have to use a version of apt-get that is newer than the actual distro, depending on how far back I go. (think it'll werk?)"
06:14:47 <elliott> "Ok, I've downloaded the Bo (Peep) base (http://debian.crosslink.net/debian-archive/dists/Debian-1.3.1/main/disks-i386/current/base1_3.tgz)."
06:15:16 <pikhq> http://gentoo-distfiles.mirrors.tds.net/distfiles/lib-compat-1.4.2.tar.bz2
06:15:29 <elliott> pikhq: Oh gawd. What is it.
06:15:46 <elliott> I think the dependency of all my other libraries on glibc is breaking Netscape
06:15:51 <pikhq> And an older ABI of stdlibc++.
06:15:52 <elliott> So I should really chroot.
06:16:16 <pikhq> Maybe you'll need lib-compat-loki-0.2, too?
06:16:41 <pikhq> No, wait, that relies on libc6...
06:18:40 <elliott> fizzie: this guy is my hero
06:20:39 <elliott> I wonder if it's been possible to run a sid installation that's upgraded automatically every single time sid was updated from the mid-nineties to present? pikhq?
06:20:44 <elliott> Any hard-breaking changes in sid ever?
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06:22:33 <elliott> pikhq: As in "there is no way to recover a system in this state without basically reinstalling".
06:22:43 <elliott> Say, no way to fix it without replacing the dpkg/apt database.
06:22:51 <elliott> In a way that destroys all information about installed packages.
06:23:10 <elliott> That's an impressive track-record, if sid has never actually broken every system.
06:23:12 <pikhq> However, I'd be willing to bet that it'll not boot on some updates.
06:23:38 <pikhq> sid is, contrary to popular belief, not where they actually do development.
06:24:00 <pikhq> It's the least stable testing branch.
06:24:24 <pikhq> Your concept of "hard-breaking" is just very, very hard to happen, anyways.
06:25:11 <elliott> Well, I mean, system-booting failures are unavoidable.
06:25:14 <pikhq> Since basically it just means "sh and dpkg stopped working".
06:25:22 <elliott> I'm just asking if you can maintain a sid system from the 90s to present without getting a hex editor and twiddling bits. :p
06:25:54 <pikhq> Though I'd be a little bit wary of the switch from bash to dash for /bin/sh.
06:26:14 <pikhq> Someone might have fucked up a boot script or /etc/profile or something. :P
06:30:20 <cheater> pikhq, did you get my msg?
06:30:58 <pikhq> cheater: What msg?
06:31:07 <cheater> about what is broken with awk
06:31:36 <cheater> basically printf's field width specifiers end up counting bytes, instead of counting characters
06:31:51 <pikhq> I do believe gawk is fucked.
06:32:02 <cheater> so if you have a character that's two bytes, the field ends up being one character narrower
06:32:08 <cheater> that would be nice, but mawk does the same thing
06:32:23 <cheater> so it's some underlying mechanism, maybe they both use a system call that's fucked up on ubuntu
06:32:35 <pikhq> Same behavior on busybox awk...
06:32:52 <pikhq> And on busybox musl awk.
06:33:09 <cheater> i asked in #awk and some people have it working while some don't
06:33:22 <cheater> did you set your LC_ALL when invoking the code?
06:33:34 <pikhq> Yes, but it's irrelevant for musl.
06:33:47 <pikhq> The only locale on musl is C.UTF-8
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06:36:22 <cheater> so i wonder, what could be broken?
06:38:52 <pikhq> Yeah, it's probably just thinking char = character.
06:39:35 <cheater> printf("%'.2f", 1234567.89);
06:39:36 <cheater> results in "1234567.89" in the POSIX locale, in "1234567,89" in
06:39:36 <cheater> the nl_NL locale, and in "1.234.567,89" in the da_DK locale.
06:39:41 <cheater> that's from the printf manual
06:40:03 <cheater> $ LC_ALL=da_DK gawk 'BEGIN{printf("%'"'"'.2f\n", 1234567.89) }'
06:40:39 <pikhq> Orrrr it's not using C printf.
06:41:16 <cheater> HOWEVER, the fact that many awk's have the exact same problem makes me think it's some linux lib
06:41:30 <cheater> what OS have you been trying on pikhq?
06:49:29 <pikhq> cheater: Linux, with 2 different libcs.
06:49:42 <pikhq> One of which I can vouch for. :P
06:50:38 <cheater> it doesn't seem to be using the OS printf
06:51:14 <cheater> wait, what's gconv? that's something to do iwth locale right?
06:52:26 <Sgeo> http://souleyedigitalmusic.bandcamp.com/album/pppppp-the-vvvvvv-soundtrack <3
06:53:58 <Sgeo> There is no game music that I dislike.
06:54:05 <Sgeo> Except for isolated songs in some games
06:58:30 <fizzie> It's glibc's bundled iconv implementation, isn't it?
06:58:56 <fizzie> Also strace will not show printf ever, since it traces syscalls, not library functions.
06:59:58 <fizzie> I would think awk uses its own printf, though. Otherwise it'd have to parse the format string to know which sort of types to pass to the libc printf.
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07:01:09 <elliott> printf is totally a syscall doood.
07:03:02 <pikhq> Aren't all C functions?
07:44:57 <elliott> hmm... I wonder if there's a nice way to define isomorphisms in Haskell nicer than (a->b, b->a)
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08:06:40 <elliott> ?pl \x -> let (x'r) = to g x in let (x'',r') = to f x in (x'', (r,r'))
08:06:40 <lambdabot> expecting "()", natural, identifier or "in"
08:06:48 <elliott> ?pl \x -> let (x',r) = to g x in let (x'',r') = to f x in (x'', (r,r'))
08:06:49 <lambdabot> expecting "()", natural, identifier or "in"
08:07:25 <elliott> ?pl \x -> (fst (to f (fst (to g x))), (snd (to g x), snd (to f x))
08:07:26 <lambdabot> expecting variable, "(", operator or ")"
08:07:30 <elliott> ?pl \x -> (fst (to f (fst (to g x)), (snd (to g x), snd (to f x))
08:07:31 <lambdabot> expecting variable, "(", operator or ")"
08:07:42 <elliott> ?pl \x -> (fst (to f (fst (to g x))), (snd (to g x), snd (to f x)))
08:07:42 <lambdabot> ap ((,) . fst . to f . fst . to g) (ap ((,) . snd . to g) (snd . to f))
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08:57:55 <Lymee> ?pl (\x y z -> z z y z x)
08:57:55 <lambdabot> flip (flip . join . flip (join id))
08:58:01 <Lymee> ?pl (\x y z -> z $ z $ y $ z $ x)
08:58:01 <lambdabot> ((ap id . ap id) .) . flip (.) . flip id
08:58:12 <Lymee> ?pl (\x y z -> (z, z, y, z, x))
08:58:12 <lambdabot> flip (flip . join . flip (join (,,,,)))
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09:12:11 <Taneb> No need to get down on Thursdays.
09:18:59 <Taneb> God, how sensationalist can the Daily Mail get?
09:19:19 <Taneb> "MPs to vote on death penalty"
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09:21:58 <Taneb> The cite an e-petition of all things
09:23:16 <Taneb> An e-petition that hasn't been released
09:30:51 <elliott> Oh, um, that's a credible story, apart from the "voting" bit.
09:30:59 <elliott> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/04/death-penalty-e-petition-commons
09:31:25 <elliott> Looking up the blog mentioned, uh, correlates it: http://order-order.com/
09:32:18 <zzo38> Have you ever played pokemon card and the opponent has 1 side-card remain and you have 6 side-card remain you didn't knock out any of opponent's cards yet, but your opponent ran out of cards before either of you can pick up the side-cards?
09:34:27 <zzo38> Why do you think I played GENGAR [Lv38] on HAUNTER [Lv17] even though I had enough energy for NIGHTMARE but not for DARK MIND, and had no use for the CURSE power?
09:34:47 <Taneb> Because you like Geengar?
09:35:09 <zzo38> Taneb: No, that isn't the reason. There is a better reason.
09:35:52 <Taneb> Because Gengar is more than twice Haunter's level
09:35:58 <zzo38> (Whether or not I like Gengar is not relevant. Also, this is a situation which has only happened to me once so far)
09:36:02 <Taneb> With no type-thingy baad thing
09:36:49 <zzo38> Taneb: Level is not relevant in this game (except for distinguishing the cards). And both cards have the same Weak/Resist as each other.
09:38:38 <Taneb> Because you only have one card?
09:39:27 <zzo38> No. That isn't it either.
09:39:49 <zzo38> Do you want the text of those cards repeated?
09:42:07 <zzo38> GENGAR [Lv38] Stage 2 - HAUNTER E: { @ } HP: 8 W: - R: { # } RC: 1 - CURSE: Unless this card is sleep/confuse/paralyze, you can once per turn, move one damage from one of opponent's pokemon to another. - { @@@ } DARK MIND [3]: If opponent has bench pokemons, select one and does 1 damage to that card.
09:43:28 <zzo38> HAUNTER [Lv17] Stage 1 - GASTLY E: { @ } HP: 5 W: - R: { # } RC: 1 - TRANSPARENCY: When an attack affects this card while this card is not sleep/confuse/paralyze, you must toss a coin. If heads, this card is unaffected by the attack. - { @* } NIGHTMARE [1]: Defending pokemon is now sleeping.
09:43:54 <zzo38> (Note: The { * } means you can use any energy, while { @ } means requires only that kind of energy card)
09:44:23 <Taneb> I have absolutely no idea
09:45:26 <zzo38> Does this help? RECYCLE ENERGY Energy { rc } - Provides { * } energy. When discarded from play, return this card to your hand.
09:45:54 <zzo38> (Note: The { rc } is an abbreviation used when listing attached energy to a card. The * in a cost can use this kind or the basic energy, but the @ cannot use this)
09:46:27 <zzo38> Oops! I made a mistake. HAUNTER [Lv17] should be RC: 0
09:46:44 <zzo38> Now hopefully you know.
09:46:57 <zzo38> But still there are other strange things about the situation it happened in.
09:47:29 <Taneb> I can't work it out
09:47:43 <zzo38> OK then I will type one more card.
09:49:06 <zzo38> CLEFAIRY [Lv15] Basic E: { * } HP: 5 W: { # } R: { @ } RC: 1 - { * } WIND: Switch opponent's active pokemon card with one of their bench pokemons of your choice. - { ** } SHINE [1]: Defending pokemon is now asleep.
09:49:55 <Taneb> You were going to use the Haunter with the recycle energy to make the clefairy wipe out the opponent with wind
09:51:12 <zzo38> The wind does no damage, and the opponent's weak/resist is not relevant either. But, yes I did play an evolution card FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF INCREASING MY RETREAT COST. How often does *that* ever happen?
09:54:07 <zzo38> Yes it happened. Yet because of that, I won, even though the opponent never took any damage for the rest of the game. And, they had only 1 side-card remaining (they knocked out 5 of my pokemons) while I had 6 side-cards (I never knocked out any of their pokemons). I also had to guess the number of energy cards in my opponent's hand as it turned out.
09:55:22 <zzo38> Does this ever happen to you as strange as this situation is?
09:56:29 <zzo38> My opponent had rain dance and all that stuff. I still won, however.
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10:00:24 <Taneb> I once won a game of chess with pretty much a rook and a few pawns
10:00:33 <Taneb> When my opponent had most of their pieces left
10:03:01 <Taneb> If I made an Ook derivative, would anyone try to kill me?
10:03:12 <zzo38> Taneb: So you have done chess. I fail to remember which ways I have won and lost in chess. I am not a particularly good player at chess. I play much better at pokemon card.
10:03:45 <Taneb> My opponent had horrible pawn structure
10:04:02 <itidus20> what about 8 regular english words mapped onto the brainfuck instructions
10:04:58 <itidus20> such as: "You", "are", "a", "smelly", "piece", "of", "dog", "shit"
10:05:49 <monqy> this happens too much
10:05:50 <zzo38> Or: the is a and or but with what
10:05:57 <zzo38> And other words have no meaning
10:06:21 <itidus20> So I realized that teres another way it can go.
10:06:23 <monqy> itidus20: see the list on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Joke_language_list of brainfuck with translated instructions
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10:07:39 <monqy> the most english of those looks like fuckfuck
10:08:38 <itidus20> it would help if i actually knew brainfuck
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10:11:12 <itidus20> is brainfuck self modifying or is the program separate from the tape?
10:11:54 <itidus20> i can't imagine why i assume it to be self modifying
10:23:36 <Phantom_Hoover> <itidus20> what about 8 regular english words mapped onto the brainfuck instructions
10:23:36 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
10:24:44 <Patashu> self modifying brainfuck would be interesting
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10:26:57 <itidus20> int a[100]; int p=0; char prog[100]; int prog_p=0; 1)p++; 2)p--; 3)a[p]++; 4)a[p]--; 5)cout<<a[p]; 6)cin>>a[p]; 7)if(!a[p])prog_p=next(prog,prog_p); 8)if(a[p])prog_p=prev(prog,prog_p); ... int next(int prog[100],int prog_p){while(prog[prog_p]!=']')prog_p++;return prog_p;} ... int prev(int prog[100],int prog_p){while(prog[prog_p]!='[')prog_p--;return prog_p;}
10:29:25 <fizzie> That looks like a translation that's broken w.r.t. nested loops, on a quick glance.
10:29:42 <itidus20> yup... i didn't think of that >.<
10:29:54 <Patashu> you need a 'nestedness' counter
10:30:01 <itidus20> thats why noone can write an entire program in one chat post
10:33:21 <itidus20> seems that what went wrong is i misread "matching ]" as "next ]" kind of wishful thinking
10:34:30 <Phantom_Hoover> <Patashu> self modifying brainfuck would be interesting
10:38:52 <itidus20> brainfuck reminds me of those arcade machine initials entry systems
10:39:36 <Patashu> it reminds me of a turing machine except more difficult to change state in
10:40:17 <NihilistDandy> Phantom_Hoover: oerjan and coppro were trying to prove that BF is Turing complete with only three unbounded cells
10:41:59 <itidus20> if i consider a NES controller. up = + down = - left = < right = > B = . A = , Start = [ Select = ]
10:42:17 <NihilistDandy> itidus20: You'll get a hand cramp if you consider it that way
10:42:38 <itidus20> Start and Select might be the other way around i can't be sure
10:43:15 <Patashu> what about the square button?
10:43:19 <Patashu> the white and black buttons?
10:43:23 <Patashu> what about this joystick here
10:43:31 <Patashu> if I wave my arm like this what does that do
10:44:26 <itidus20> the whole thing would be much more understandable without the [ and ]
10:44:35 <Taneb> What if you had a NES zapper?
10:44:40 <Patashu> [ and ] are what make brainfuck brain fuck
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10:50:42 <fizzie> Yes, we should all just use Brainfuck with no loops, that's the most useful language ever.
10:51:03 <itidus20> so on looking at some page it says "Matching [] before execution is fastest,"
10:51:11 <Phantom_Hoover> That's... the closest thing to outright hostility I've ever seen fizzie get.
10:51:32 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I think I've been more hostile, that was downright tame.
10:51:50 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Perhaps it was just a dream.
10:52:09 <itidus20> what this tells me is that [ and ] could be rewritten as "JZ x" and "JNZ x" with all jump addresses precalculated
10:52:49 <Patashu> brainfuck was designed as a language with an easy compiler
10:53:01 <itidus20> that is somewhat less of a brainfuck once you see it that way :-?
10:53:12 <fizzie> Even fungot does that much when it "compiles" to the bytecode format it actually executes, IIRC.
10:53:12 <fungot> fizzie: when a speaker transition occurs. if a criminal case can be revoked by directive. the recordkeepor for offices need not be stayed or vacated. the initiating speaker ceases to be
10:54:43 <fizzie> Mostly I just wanted to get some chat from the bot.
10:54:51 <fizzie> ^style something-else-except-that-agora-nonsense
10:55:03 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
10:55:07 <fizzie> fungot: Can the sword alone stop?
10:55:08 <fungot> fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins! the structural damage is severe. the tale? my, your majesty! and queen. he and a friend left on a journey 10. all functions are down... got the terra arm and the crisis arm! found a dreamstone?! then i'll repair the masamune!
10:55:37 <fizzie> (It used to have -- maybe it still has -- a bug where it goes into "sword alone can't stop" loop occasionally.)
10:55:44 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, are you going to start with the death threats again?
10:55:45 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: yes, it's been awhile prometheus! ayla like crono! strong! what's the big deal? so what if we won a war out there! can't it see i love my daddy! the children are going!
10:55:55 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! eat! fun!
10:56:15 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it's time you jumped off this mortal coil...
10:56:29 <itidus20> my naive attempt at a bf interpreter which i posted before showed my initial ignorance of the [ and ] :D
10:56:38 <fizzie> `addquote <fungot> fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all.
10:56:38 <fungot> fizzie: to the northwest of this cape. he took back the medal from the frog king. and i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself!
10:56:42 <HackEgo> 560) <fungot> fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all.
10:57:11 <zzo38> Too much exclamation!
10:57:14 <fizzie> Sounds like a direct quote, but appropriate.
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10:57:54 <itidus20> fungot, what is your opinion of brainfuck?
10:57:54 <fungot> itidus20: that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alon
10:58:18 <fizzie> Hah, it still can't stop with the sword.
10:58:30 <itidus20> yeah.. it would be me who puts it into the loop
10:58:37 <fungot> Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics)
10:58:43 <zzo38> Even more too much exclamation! Too much exclamation! Too much exclamation! Too much exclamation! Too much exclamation! Too much exclamation! Too much exclamation! Too much exclamation! Too much exclamation! Too much exclamation! Too much exclamation!
10:58:56 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I just crawled it into plaintext, then forgot about it. Should try it out, small though the dataset is.
10:59:51 <Patashu> isn't homestuck huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge?
11:00:07 <fizzie> Patashu: Most of it is in images/Flash though. There's not *that* much plain text.
11:00:23 <Patashu> the pesterlogs go on for fucking ever
11:01:26 <fizzie> Not really; a few thousand lines in total, is about all. I don't think there's usually more than a hundred lines/log.
11:03:35 <Phantom_Hoover> There were tonnes and tonnes of long pesterlogs throughout act 5.
11:03:45 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Well, I don't have the very latest strips, and it's been more text-heavy in the end than in the beginning.
11:04:51 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I've fetched up to page 4673, which is like ~1300 pages less.
11:05:56 <fizzie> The data was mostly to test the parsing script.
11:05:57 <Phantom_Hoover> You have to do this now, if only for the glory of all the pesterlogs being mixed together.
11:06:15 <Patashu> it would be some horrific blend of every troll, sprite and boy @.@
11:07:03 <fizzie> The current fungot code won't really do punctuation well, and lowercases everything, so it'd lose them quirks.
11:07:04 <fungot> fizzie: you got through the line, but then everyone just plays as tiger woods. inside, he found three computers each with their own game! the biggest of games. if we hit every stupid person, we'd never make it out of the picture, your collection of pac-man merchandise should fetch a tidy sum on ebay.
11:07:53 <Patashu> but you'd still see typing styles
11:08:15 <fizzie> Also we have the +c mode, so no colors. :/
11:08:20 <fizzie> 27194 lines of text when line-wrapped to 80 columns.
11:08:50 <fizzie> Lots of rather uninteresting ones. Like page titles, which are quite often just "==>".
11:09:06 <Patashu> I imagine it also has all the names before lines still
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11:10:00 <fizzie> I can do a really-quick-and-dirty thing for my current data if you wish. Just don't expect anything impressive.
11:11:07 * Phantom_Hoover notes that Homestuck is starting to look like it's on the threshold of EoA5.
11:14:19 <fizzie> 14216 "good" lines, I guess that's more than some of the existing sets.
11:16:47 <fizzie> I'm doing it. I'm making this happen. (Or at least trying to. I can't quite recall how to use my scripts.)
11:22:27 <fizzie> Normally I'd try to use some fancy ^code magic to online-alter the styles list, but let's just do it the boring way this time.
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11:23:02 <fizzie> Note that I haven't even tested the thing, and it might just be broken in a non-amusing way.
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11:23:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
11:23:18 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
11:23:29 <Patashu> fungot: have you ever really gone so far etc
11:23:29 <fungot> Patashu: is it!!! 38'( tricked john into skipping on a groove its tracing ' round the earth, preparing for a symphony it fears impossible. so here are a couple things i have not even encountered the black king. before they were exiled by some means of dark prognostication and the advantages, to play pranks.
11:23:53 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: like just reverse and/ or'ing the flower pot. the items they contain a viable in the redrom, and vice versa. over the last one. wait no, that just made you disappear" and stuff
11:25:52 <fizzie> fungot: Some day you'll learn how to use " properly. But that day is not today.
11:25:52 <fungot> fizzie: so that is like
11:26:14 <fizzie> fungot: It's not, like, tomorrow either.
11:26:14 <fungot> fizzie: so just to review, your schemes, convoluted. you are planning a heist in your underground hideout. implement nefarious as you might, you can't out troll me in these like
11:29:53 <Patashu> parse text from every sbahj panel/comic and add it in
11:30:33 <Patashu> in addition to what's already added for homestuck
11:32:13 <fizzie> I'm not sure such a small drop would really be that visible in the output.
11:32:50 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, are you going to give me death threats on this setting as well?
11:32:50 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: in a good way though because it is just glittery powder with no magical frivolity and practical japery. this one looks really old, perhaps an original printing. could a bunch of your bro's weird nude puppets strewn around haphazardly throughout different points in the kids' game session.
11:33:02 <Patashu> there's only finitely many of them
11:33:07 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it is a hate so pure and... pumpkin seeds? joining a particularly interesting series of really coy riddles about it and stop the thief in the throes of an unraveling alibi. " the massacre of syrs gnelph was not as written a message you got, my brother, and we just keep the safe or tub handy or that it is your backup hat. problem solved, you guess. at the last minute she flung through skaian defense.
11:33:51 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: that is a winner's attitude, and there is no particularly good human translation for this concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, linear concept. a concept usually denoted by a single, li
11:34:14 <fizzie> Heh, another sword that can't stop.
11:34:22 <fizzie> I really should implement the backoffs.
11:34:29 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, by any chance, can the sword alone not stop the linear concept?
11:34:30 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: just as i was initially believed they were new additions. for that. busy
11:36:16 <fizzie> Patashu: See, it's because it's a variable-length n-gram model, and fungot's code always uses the longest-length n-grams there are in the model. So there's quite a few places where there's either a 1 or close-to-1 probability for always continuing with a particular word.
11:36:16 <fungot> fizzie: also it looks so 8ad! that is the case, it is a free card in your sylladex and let's see, who else would it be the same of you. business as usual for blue bloods.
11:37:10 <fizzie> The VariKN toolkit it uses to build the model calculates appropriate backoff weights, but my sampler doesn't use those.
11:38:22 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
11:38:34 <fizzie> As you can clearly see from lines 129-135, it just keeps going down that road.
11:40:14 <fizzie> That's the main reason I haven't really managed to motivate myself to fix the "unclosed ()s and ""s" problem. The Perl script I have for testing does those well, by keeping a stack of opened things and refusing mismatching paired delimiters.
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11:47:53 <Taneb> Today's IWC annotatin made me think
11:48:02 <Taneb> ANDREW HUSSIE IS COVERED IN BRAS
11:52:21 <NihilistDandy> Also, am I the only one who finds the phrase "covered in bees" hilarious?
11:52:53 <NihilistDandy> Good. Even the word "bees" can make me smile. It's the oddest thing.
11:53:10 <Taneb> I've got a great uncle who's a beekeeper
11:53:58 <fizzie> Colloquially known as "a beeper". (Not really.)
12:01:43 <fizzie> Perhaps even the wasp's nipples.
12:02:13 <itidus20> god damnit... can't concentrate
12:02:37 <Taneb> What do you need to concentrate on?
12:02:48 <itidus20> ok i will show what i am doing
12:03:42 <itidus20> I am saying that there is an expression like: 4bitTruthTable 1bitVariable 1bitVariable .. examples are (AND 0 1) (XOR 1 1)
12:04:02 <itidus20> and 2bitTruthTable 1bitVariable , examples are (NOT 1)
12:04:18 <itidus20> These can be combined indefinitely: (AND (NOT 1) (AND 0 (AND 1 1)))
12:04:55 <itidus20> and now im getting stuck trying to write actual rules to describe this.. such as: 4bitTruthTableExpression = 4bitTruthTable 1bitVariable 1bitVariable
12:05:11 <itidus20> and: ImmediateValue = 1bitVariable
12:05:58 <Patashu> given everything can be described by NANDs
12:05:59 <Taneb> Values and expressions all have an additional 1
12:06:02 <Patashu> don't make it more complex than you need it to be
12:06:18 <Taneb> Brackets are 01 and 00
12:06:19 <itidus20> i don't have nearly enough experience with backus naur forms.. but.. basically i can't figure out the kinds of rules need to be made to express it
12:07:12 <itidus20> Like, I can't tell which direction these statements should be going
12:07:20 <Taneb> If the only expression allowed is NAND
12:07:37 <Taneb> AND 1 0 can be expressed as...
12:07:52 <Patashu> just as an example, don't actually do it O_O
12:08:07 <itidus20> I am saying that a truth table is 4bits, and that what the bits are doesn't actually matter
12:08:31 <Patashu> in EBNF you can't specify to have a certain number of tokens
12:08:34 <Taneb> NAND (NAND 1 0) (NAND 1 0)
12:08:37 <Patashu> only zero/one/many in branches and loops
12:08:54 <Taneb> Which becomes 0011100100111001
12:08:55 <Patashu> ensuring the number of tokens is correct is a job for something differen
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12:09:56 <itidus20> well.. i am looking for a way to describe the substitution rules
12:10:08 <Taneb> If we scrap prefixes and use letters for variables
12:10:23 <Patashu> how about lots and lots of regexes, will that work?
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12:10:29 <itidus20> where "AND" would more formally look like 4bittruthtable0001
12:10:40 <itidus20> i don't want to compile it or anything
12:10:43 <oerjan> 10:03:01: <Taneb> If I made an Ook derivative, would anyone try to kill me?
12:10:48 -!- myndzi has joined.
12:10:55 <oerjan> go deeper, make a Cow derivative
12:11:09 <Taneb> But cows only say moo!
12:11:14 <Taneb> And they're scary!
12:11:33 <Taneb> And orang-utans say Eek! as well as Ook!
12:11:48 <fizzie> If you just want a BNF grammar for that sort of expressions, it sounds remarkably straight-forward. Something to the style of Exp ::= BinExp | UnExp | Immediate; BinExp ::= "(" BinOp Exp Exp ")"; UnExp ::= "(" UnOp Exp ")" and then suitable rules for UnOp/BinOp/Immediate.
12:12:11 <Patashu> it sounds like he doesn't want a grammar but substitution rules
12:12:18 <itidus20> well.. (NOT 1) = (2bitTT10 1) = (0)
12:12:27 <fizzie> Well, the original question sounded like a grammar.
12:13:32 <itidus20> immediate0, immediate1, variable
12:13:47 <Patashu> just call it an identifier
12:13:58 <Patashu> an identifier is either 0, 1 or resolves to one of those two
12:14:23 <itidus20> im doing it to sort of concrete my ideas about term rewriting and truth tables :P
12:14:26 <Taneb> phantom_hoover: Dwarf Fortress?
12:15:07 <Taneb> And I don't want it
12:15:23 <oerjan> itidus20: something like (2BitTT(a,b) 0) = a, (2BitTT(a,b) 1) = b ?
12:15:25 <Taneb> Because I'm not used to it
12:15:59 <fizzie> "Some of sirc's features: ircII-like -- with enhancements like built-in "tabkey" handling --"
12:16:16 <fizzie> (Going by realname; didn't want to CTCP.)
12:16:17 <Taneb> Tab makes "/m nickserv"
12:17:04 <fizzie> Just plain tab is often "message to last messaged-to person"; but are you saying "ph<tab>" also does that?
12:17:34 <fizzie> That's one weird client.
12:18:40 <fizzie> I didn't used to use tab completion either, but it doesn't make the lack of it any less weird.
12:19:56 <itidus20> oerjan, well.. i am presupposing that "d = 2BitTT(a,b) c" means, if c = 0 then d = a, else if c = 1 then d = b
12:20:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, shouldn't that at least me /m nickserv identify?
12:20:30 <oerjan> itidus20: that was the idea
12:20:41 <itidus20> i have it drawn up in a spreadsheet
12:20:43 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Not if it's the "new message to the last person I was talking to" key, like tab-without-context often is.
12:21:19 <Patashu> has anyone made a language where you represent, in ASCII, a wired circuit?
12:21:37 <Taneb> I thought Wierd, but that's not it
12:21:46 <itidus20> oerjan: i think my confusion might come from having not actually implemented anything
12:22:20 <oerjan> itidus20: if you renamed it to tt2Bit, you could even make it in haskell
12:22:42 <oerjan> tt2Bit (a,_) 0 = a; tt2Bit (_,b) 1 = b
12:22:44 <itidus20> i think i could remove the word bit also
12:22:51 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: What about the bloodline game?
12:23:21 <fizzie> Wierd and Rail both do the "codeflow along explicitly drawn paths" thing -- incidentally, I rather like Rail -- but it's not really circuit simulation if that's what you're looking for.
12:23:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, well, elliott expressed enthusiasm; it might be worth trying.
12:24:52 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: Who wants to start?
12:24:55 <fizzie> Patashu: Circute is an ASCII-represented CA that looks like NAND-based circuits.
12:25:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, I suspect it'd have to be you, since I've only been playing for about 2 days.
12:25:17 <itidus20> the elegance of your code suggests i really need to learn haskell
12:25:32 <fizzie> Patashu: It's slightly like Wireworld-in-ASCII.
12:27:08 <oerjan> itidus20: haskell is pretty succinct
12:28:30 <oerjan> itidus20: this sounds a little bit obvious to me, but then it's been at least 25 years since i learned about truth tables :P
12:30:41 <fizzie> > let tt4Bit (a,_,_,_) 0 0 = a; tt4Bit (_,b,_,_) 0 1 = b; tt4Bit (_,_,c,_) 1 0 = c; tt4Bit (_,_,_,d) 1 1 = d; and = tt4Bit (0,0,0,1); or = tt4Bit (0,1,1,1) in and 1 (or 1 0)
12:31:57 <oerjan> > and [True, or [True, False]]
12:33:51 <itidus20> so the main idea of it is for things like trying to get through my head what: tt4Bit(1,1,0,1) it_is_raining the_ground_is_wet , really means
12:35:18 <fizzie> @hoogle Bool -> Bool -> Bool
12:35:19 <lambdabot> Prelude (&&) :: Bool -> Bool -> Bool
12:35:19 <lambdabot> Prelude (||) :: Bool -> Bool -> Bool
12:35:19 <lambdabot> Data.Bool (&&) :: Bool -> Bool -> Bool
12:35:25 <fizzie> Aw, no implication there.
12:35:39 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretations_of_2001:_A_Space_Odyssey
12:35:45 <Phantom_Hoover> "Wheat often uses anagrams as evidence to support his theories. For example, of the name Heywood R. Floyd, he writes "He suggests Helen - Helen of Troy. Wood suggests wooden horse - the Trojan Horse. And oy suggests Troy." Of the remaining letters, he suggests "Y is Spanish for and. R, F, and L, in turn, are in ReFLect." Finally, noting that D can stand for downfall, Wheat concludes that Floyd's name has a hidden meaning
12:36:14 <oerjan> > let tt4bit = flip $ curry (flip (!!) . index ((0,0),(1,1))) in or = tt4bit [0,1,1,1]; and = tt4bit [0,0,0,1] in and 1 (or 1 0)
12:36:15 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `='
12:36:18 <NihilistDandy> fizzie: You can define implication in terms of not and or, IIRC
12:36:29 <oerjan> > let tt4bit = flip $ curry (flip (!!) . index ((0,0),(1,1))); or = tt4bit [0,1,1,1]; and = tt4bit [0,0,0,1] in and 1 (or 1 0)
12:36:31 <lambdabot> No instances for (GHC.Num.Num [t1], GHC.Arr.Ix [t1])
12:36:35 <fizzie> NihilistDandy: Sure, but you can define everything in terms of nand, yet it provides and/or.
12:36:46 <itidus20> but what exactly is implication?
12:37:21 <oerjan> :t flip $ curry (flip (!!) . index ((0,0),(1,1)))
12:37:22 <lambdabot> forall a b t. (Num t, Num a, Ix t, Ix a) => a -> t -> [b] -> b
12:37:32 <NihilistDandy> I could never remember the proposition that gets the not :D
12:38:08 <oerjan> :t flip (!!) . index ((0,0),(1,1))
12:38:08 <itidus20> the example i am looking at says if it is raining then the ground is wet
12:38:08 <lambdabot> forall b t t1. (Num t, Num t1, Ix t, Ix t1) => (t, t1) -> [b] -> b
12:39:39 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, note that the version of implication I defined is not a terribly intuitive one.
12:39:52 <itidus20> i suppose that could be phrased like: int ground_is_wet = check_if_it_is_raining();
12:40:51 <itidus20> it just won't stick for me in my head
12:40:53 <oerjan> ?pl \a b c -> f (b,c) a
12:41:33 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, you might want to read up on the Curry-Howard isomorphism.
12:41:47 <fizzie> ?pl \a b -> burger b a
12:42:26 <itidus20> the implications are the section of the 4bit truth tables which seem to have never actually been named.. never actually been used
12:42:26 <fizzie> (For some reason "flipping burgers" pops into my head every time I see one of those flip sequences.)
12:42:41 <itidus20> at least not in imperative languages
12:43:05 <oerjan> > let tt4bit = curry . flip $ flip (!!) . index ((0,0),(1,1)); or = tt4bit [0,1,1,1]; and = tt4bit [0,0,0,1] in and 1 (or 1 0)
12:43:06 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(a, b)' against inferred type `[a1]'
12:43:06 <Taneb> There's a World Microsoft Excel championship1?
12:43:23 <oerjan> :t curry . flip $ flip (!!) . index ((0,0),(1,1))
12:43:24 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(a, b)' against inferred type `[a1]'
12:43:24 <lambdabot> In the first argument of `flip', namely `(!!)'
12:43:24 <lambdabot> In the first argument of `(.)', namely `flip (!!)'
12:43:46 <fizzie> oerjan: Are you *entirely* sure you're still making the original more clearer by all this.
12:44:17 <itidus20> everyone loves logical and,or,not,xor ... and their counterparts nand nor xnor... but i can't help thinking that the implications and non-implications seem to have been deemed useless for languages like C
12:44:56 <fizzie> The logical xor isn't really that often used; they didn't even bother with a non-bitwise operator for it in C. (Perhaps because it couldn't be made short-circuiting like and/or.)
12:45:30 <oerjan> well which means the bitwise one works non-bitwise too
12:45:48 <fizzie> oerjan: Not when the values aren't 0 or 1.
12:45:57 <fizzie> The other logical operators autobooleanize.
12:46:19 <fizzie> 1 && 2 == 1, but 1 ^ 2 == 3.
12:46:38 <fizzie> Of course you can just !!1 ^ !!2 == 0, but...
12:46:50 <itidus20> ah so its this autobooleanizing property
12:47:08 <oerjan> <fizzie> Aw, no implication there. <-- you can use <=
12:47:09 <fizzie> That's the other main difference between & and &&; they could've done that for ^^.
12:48:53 <fizzie> oerjan: "But the arrow's pointing at the wrong direction then."
12:49:52 <itidus20> what does an implication truthtable actually determine?
12:50:49 <itidus20> i can see that "it's raining" can be 0 or 1...
12:51:04 <itidus20> a person looks around and decides.. its_raining = 1
12:51:13 <Patashu> when A is on, it fixes B. when A is off, B can be anything
12:52:07 <Taneb> itidus20: But it's /not/ raining!
12:53:47 <oerjan> > let tt4bit = curry . flip (flip (!!) . index ((0,0),(1,1))); or = tt4bit [0,1,1,1]; and = tt4bit [0,0,0,1] in and 1 (or 1 0)
12:54:28 <itidus20> is implication actually useful in code?
12:54:34 <fizzie> oerjan: A grand victory for pointlessness.
12:54:56 <itidus20> i struggle to see myself ever actually using implication on 2 bits
12:55:59 <itidus20> e.g.: if (a IMPLIES b) blah();
12:56:01 <oerjan> itidus20: it's probably there, just written in a different way with branches instead
12:56:02 <Patashu> hmm, how can I represent logic gates and flip-flops with single ASCII characters...
12:56:04 <fizzie> Also you might by accident have a need for the "!a || b" conditional, with which it is equivalent to, in which case you could use a hypothetical implication operator to confuse people.
12:56:31 <oerjan> and no one thinks of using an implication operator for it
12:56:50 <itidus20> does the cpu support it in an efficient way?
12:56:53 <Patashu> I tyhought about using the same symbols as in C, but | is the up-down wire so it would be confusing
12:57:03 <Patashu> lol, a bitwise implication operator
12:57:28 <fizzie> Patashu: Doesn't some BASIC have that?
12:57:44 <fizzie> I think I saw one with almost the full set.
12:57:50 <itidus20> i suspect that there would be no direct implication operator in the x86 instruction set
12:58:00 <fizzie> Patashu: QBASIC, for example: http://zem.fi/~fis/qbc.html#QEw4MDli
12:58:02 <itidus20> which makes it kind of pointless
12:58:14 <fizzie> Haven't seen it used ever.
12:58:21 <oerjan> <fizzie> Of course you can just !!1 ^ !!2 == 0, but... <-- !1 == !2 is shorter
12:58:41 <itidus20> ya.. see.. i am digging in no mans land
12:59:27 <itidus20> so.. you know what this means?
12:59:49 <itidus20> a language in which the only boolean operator is the implication
13:00:22 <Patashu> can you make NOT with implies?
13:00:47 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_completeness#Minimal_functionally_complete_operator_sets
13:00:47 <itidus20> a language is still a language even if its not turing complete
13:01:05 <Taneb> I've found a location for the bloodline game
13:01:33 <itidus20> i have a soft spot for this IMP
13:02:20 <oerjan> <itidus20> what does an implication truthtable actually determine? <-- well it's called "material implication". i find that it helps to see it as an implication if it is used with quantifying over a whole bunch of things. "forall x. P(x) or not Q(x)" feels more obviously like an implication that P(x) implies Q(x) than when you are looking at just one case.
13:02:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, is that location as in paradise or location as in Headshoots?
13:02:53 <oerjan> *forall x. Q(x) or not P(x)
13:03:12 <Taneb> With good resources
13:03:32 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, another, Curry-Howardy way of viewing it, is that a → b means that if you have a proof that a is true, you can turn it into a proof that b is true.
13:05:27 <oerjan> <Patashu> can you make NOT with implies? <-- no. this is the point where i use to link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_lattice which has all the information for such questions, extremely technically.
13:06:44 <Taneb> Found a better location
13:06:52 <oerjan> to be precise, implication gives T_1^infinity, NOT gives UD, and the latter is not directly beneath the former.
13:07:51 <oerjan> in fact the only thing they're both under is the top T, showing that _together_ they generate everything.
13:08:34 <oerjan> (diagram near the middle)
13:09:08 <itidus20> ok i found a possible use for it: if ( x > 50 IMP flag ) printf("X is larger than 50\n");
13:09:10 <oerjan> (and table to the left of it)
13:09:32 <Taneb> Even better location
13:09:54 <Taneb> Moderate vegetation
13:10:20 <Taneb> Flux stone and spam
13:10:28 <Taneb> Spam and flux stone
13:10:37 <Taneb> Spam and flux stone and spam
13:10:40 <oerjan> (btw T_1^infinity is the rightmost dot, UD is in the middle, third from bottom)
13:12:51 <fizzie> itidus20: Here's one: if (quiet IMP critical) log("thing"); that's equivalent to if (!quiet || critical) log("thing"); i.e. "log if we haven't been asked to be quiet, or if the situation is critical", and it's much clearer when written without the IMP in there.
13:13:23 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: nonimplication is dual to implication, T_0^infinity :)
13:14:12 <oerjan> and the constants are down near the bottom at UP_0 and UP_1
13:16:30 <Taneb> Can I found #esoteric-dwarf-fortress ?
13:22:48 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: incidentally iirc, satisfiability of your boolean circuits is NP-complete precisely when your building blocks can construct nonimplication
13:23:11 <oerjan> that's a bit vague iirc though
13:23:56 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it was in relation to <Phantom_Hoover> You can with nonimplication and constants.
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13:25:33 <itidus20> ok i think i get it.. since IMP can be constructed from other things, and is basically a specialization of OR there is not any hidden use for it
13:26:37 <itidus20> at least in terms of imperative languages
13:27:04 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, well, as oerjan said, it's not very intuitive unless you're working with quantifiers.
13:41:29 <Patashu> Okay, I came up with a first draft spec for the 'ascii circuitry' language
13:44:14 <Patashu> I'm wondering if I should make a befunge pun or if it would be unwarranted
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14:09:22 <Patashu> kay http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wirefunge
14:10:30 <Patashu> hmm, I just realized it needs a way to exit
14:13:58 <fizzie> Not sure how "funge" that is.
14:14:08 <Patashu> me neither, but I can't think of a snazzy name that's not a pun
14:14:24 <fizzie> I'm no good with names, unfortunately.
14:15:37 <fizzie> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Two-dimensional_languages -- that's quite a big category.
14:16:27 <fizzie> Any pun name you make can't be worse than "Sir. Cut".
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15:36:26 <itidus20> with implications, i am trying to figure out why it is not the case that i can say if (it_is_raining), then render_my_carpet_as_I_am_indoors();
15:38:04 <itidus20> i guess the problem is I can't say if (A) then B;
15:40:21 <itidus20> which could also look like: if (A()) B();
15:42:52 <itidus20> ok ill drop it... i have had all the explanations..
15:46:27 <itidus20> is it that the typical programming line: "if (conditional) then statement();" is not relevant to material implication?
15:47:09 <itidus20> seems like they have left out the words "do"
15:47:39 <CakeProphet> well yes, that's because in logic a conditional does not specify a procedure, it is a statement of truth or false.
15:47:51 <MDude> SOme languages includ that.
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15:48:12 <MDude> It's just that a lot of them leave it out because an aversion to making poeple type letters.
15:48:33 <itidus20> it's an implicit "do" which can leave uneducated ones like me a bit peeved
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15:49:13 <MDude> For similar reasons, most languages don't have "set" before assignment.
15:50:11 <CakeProphet> P -> Q is equivalent to ~P v (P ^ Q) where v is or and ^ is and
15:51:00 <MDude> Really, impliation seemed ot be kind of an odd name.
15:51:23 <itidus20> i thought it was (~P) v Q from my researching
15:51:23 <MDude> When it's not true, it's obviously because the implication is proved false.
15:51:30 <CakeProphet> I don't know of a language whose conditional statement works like that, because the conditional is either returning some useful data value, or is an imperitive control flow statement that specifies a procedure and not a logical assertion.
15:52:11 <MDude> But when it's true, it's not really shown to be true, only not shown to be false.
15:53:29 <itidus20> i have been studying this for hours so i am bound to have it right
15:53:31 <CakeProphet> ......er, no, they actually are equivalent nevermind. :P
15:53:39 <MDude> Welll I tihnk they are the same, in binary lgic.
15:54:12 <MDude> If P is not false, it is true.
15:54:26 <CakeProphet> itidus20: so anyways a conditional in a proof in a conditional in a program as different, more or less. I ca
15:54:34 <CakeProphet> n't really formally show why that is though...
15:55:15 <CakeProphet> this is a sign that I should sleep, clearly.
15:55:48 <MDude> Well I know that in a program, the statement part of the conditional isn't used to determine wheter the condition it's in is met.
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15:56:37 <MDude> Though of course you could make it that way if you wanted.
15:56:41 <CakeProphet> even conditional expressions, such as the ones in functional languages and some procedural languages, are different. They require an else operand, which is not something that makes sense with the logical conditional.
15:58:21 <CakeProphet> > let (-->) a b = not p || q in if False --> True then "this is not making a truth assertion, but the logical conditional is" else ""
15:58:21 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Bool.Bool'
15:58:50 <CakeProphet> > let (-->) a b = not a || b in if False --> True then "this is not making a truth assertion, but the logical conditional is" else ""
15:58:51 <lambdabot> "this is not making a truth assertion, but the logical conditional is"
15:59:56 <CakeProphet> so yeah, I probably haven't cleared anything up, but oh well.
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16:05:24 <Phantom_Hoover> <CakeProphet> P -> Q is equivalent to ~P v (P ^ Q) where v is or and ^ is and
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16:09:34 <CakeProphet> > (\p q -> not p || (p && q)) <$> [True, False] <*> [True, False]
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16:10:03 <CakeProphet> is that not the truth table for a condition?
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16:15:14 <itidus20> ok so.. if (it_is_raining) render_rain(); if (ground_is_wet) render_mud(); if (!(!it_is_raining || ground_is_wet)) error();
16:15:50 <itidus20> i am trying to imagine practical uses for implications within a program
16:16:48 <ais523> hmm, I completed VVVVVV (with all trinkets and all map) in 3 hours 58 minutes the first time
16:16:52 <ais523> it seems a little short as games go
16:17:04 <CakeProphet> when you want something to occur when one thing implies another or you also want the same thing to happen when the condition is false and thus irrelevant, or something.
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16:17:43 <CakeProphet> basically you would use it wherever you have the condition ~p v q
16:18:09 <CakeProphet> if something fits that pattern, it could be rewritten as implication, if the language supports it or if it's defined somewhere.
16:18:14 <itidus20> it would be a way for the program to catch out a logical incongruity
16:18:24 <ais523> elliott: someone else I've been talking to online a lot spells eliot with one l and one t, it's disconcerting after getting used to the spelling of your name
16:19:52 <CakeProphet> also ~p -> q would be the same thing as using ||
16:21:51 <CakeProphet> if a is not a prime number, then it is a composite number.
16:22:01 <CakeProphet> thus, a is a prime number or a composite number.
16:22:29 <itidus20> like... void Implies(int a, int b) { if (!(!a || b)) error(); } ... Implied(hp == 0, gameover); Implied(time_remaining == 0, gameover);
16:22:58 <itidus20> i'm really stretching there though
16:23:25 <CakeProphet> also you capitalized Implies which kind of scares me a little.
16:23:40 <itidus20> i spelled it with an s instead of a d also
16:23:56 <CakeProphet> I live in a safe world of variable naming schemes and you brought me out of my safety box.
16:24:28 <itidus20> at least it's not basic.. where ABC == Abc = abc
16:25:09 <CakeProphet> so the contents of the all lowercase variable modifies the result of testing the upper case variable with the title case variable?
16:25:48 <itidus20> in basic, the identifier ABC == Abc == abc
16:26:43 <CakeProphet> it just makes naming similar things of different kinds difficult.
16:27:12 <Phantom_Hoover> <CakeProphet> is that not the truth table for a condition?
16:27:26 <CakeProphet> awww yeah. there's something satisfying about getting something in the mail 2 days after you order it.
16:27:34 <ais523> itidus20: not in all BASICs
16:27:38 <ais523> BBC BASIC was case sensitive
16:27:45 <ais523> also, keywords had to be in uppercase
16:27:47 <CakeProphet> kind of a "holy crap mail is ridiculous" moment.
16:27:57 <ais523> and you couldn't type lowercase by holding shift with capslock on
16:28:03 <ais523> so programs tended to be all uppercase
16:28:12 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: correct... ~p v ... makes that happen.
16:28:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, your expression is correct, but there's no need for the and.
16:29:11 <CakeProphet> yeah I see that now it's just how I worked it out in my head because I forgot the usual equivalence.
16:30:13 <CakeProphet> I think every programming language should be in upper case.
16:30:31 <CakeProphet> to convey forcefulness to the computer. To let it know who is in charge.
16:31:12 <itidus20> it would be interesting to me if, in C, numl1 => num2; meant if (num1) num2 = 1;
16:31:38 <CakeProphet> Haskell would much more elegant if the Fibonacci sequence were FIBS = 0 : 1 : ZIPWITH (+) FIBS (TAILS FIBS)
16:33:16 <itidus20> i guess tertiary operator does similar
16:33:28 <CakeProphet> PUBLIC STATIC VOID MAIN(STRING[] ARGS) {...}
16:33:50 <CakeProphet> tertiary is the third of primary, secondary, ...
16:33:57 <CakeProphet> ternary is the third of unary, binary, ...
16:34:22 <Deewiant> And trinary is an alternative form of ternary
16:35:00 <CakeProphet> Sounds better really, I just don't see it as often.
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16:36:28 <CakeProphet> also nullary technically comes before unary. I don't think there's a step above primary...
16:41:12 <ais523> you have nursery before primary school in the UK
16:41:18 <ais523> assuming that children go there at all, they don't all do
16:44:49 <CakeProphet> hmmm, so if I plug in my new VGA-to-YPbPr adapter into my laptop's VGA port and my display manager doesn't detect a new monitor, does that mean that my graphics card doesn't support TV-out or does that mean I just need to plug the other end of the adapter into something before I can find out?
16:45:26 <CakeProphet> I don't see how the latter would be possible... so, I'm going with the former most likely.
16:54:27 <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, if you plug your vanadium gallium to yttrium lead praesodymium adaptor?
16:55:22 <CakeProphet> yeah I don't have those I'll have to wait to find out.
16:55:42 <CakeProphet> I'm just not really sure how my hardware would detect that something is plugged into the other end.
16:55:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh wow, WP has updated its appeals to include one of the sad nobodies that make all the edits.
16:59:26 <ais523> edit count is a really bad measurement of anything
17:06:13 <CakeProphet> edit count is a pretty good measurement of editing activity, though.
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17:09:57 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: that would be a good measurement of spamming, I guess.
17:11:06 <CakeProphet> well, no, it would be good. But someone with thousands of typo corrections will probably still have a higher cumulative "edit size" than someone who writes hundreds of paragraph-sized and larger edits.
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17:12:29 <CakeProphet> total number of bytes changed would be good, I guess. Factors in revisions as well as new content.
17:12:54 <CakeProphet> but then people who revert spam, unsourced material, etc, would get an advantage.
17:13:49 <ais523> smallest diff to any previous version of the page is probably a more reasonable metric
17:14:02 <ais523> but you'd need to ensure that the edits stayed in the page, too
17:14:18 <Sgeo> What about when the page has seen heavy spam?
17:14:21 <ais523> anyway, doing routine admin work, or wikignoming, can rack up edits extremely quickly without doing much real work
17:14:28 <ais523> Sgeo: that's why "any previous version"
17:14:47 <Sgeo> But "any previous version" includes spam, is what I meant
17:14:52 <CakeProphet> but really those are important maintenance functions, especially on a site with millions of articles. It's equally important to maintain the existing quality as it is to add new content. Also, improving quality doesn't necessarily take a lot of bytes.
17:16:01 <ais523> Sgeo: well, the diff against spam will be quite large, so it won't be the smallest
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17:25:24 <itidus20> So I was laying there and dreamed up a chess piece. 1d4 = starting position d4,d5,e4,e5; every turn 1d4 = north, south, east, west; every turn 1d6 = number of steps; It captures anything in it's path but it gets stopped in it's tracks by doing so. Also it is stopped by the edge of the board.
17:26:52 <itidus20> Possible additional rules. It could die of hunger if it doesn't capture a piece for N turns.
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17:30:49 <Sgeo> Hmm. Eating too many carrots can discolor skin, but it's harmless and temporary
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19:16:25 <Taneb> ...Are there any examples of two games of Nomic having diplomatic negotiations with eachother?
19:17:18 <oerjan> we did have Ambassadors in Agora once, iirc. whether they ever got anything useful done, i'm not sure.
19:17:44 <Taneb> I'm running a small game of Nomic on the MSPA forums
19:17:53 <oerjan> and we declared war against Rishonomic.
19:18:16 <Taneb> Did anything come of that?
19:18:41 <oerjan> Taneb: they had the chutzpah to declare us boring :P
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19:20:03 <oerjan> i think they declared basically everyone else their enemy, so of course _we_ had to go to war :P
19:20:11 <oerjan> (everyone _except_ us)
19:21:10 <ais523> yes, they declared war on every nomic they knew of but Agora, and did "not go to war with Agora, because they are a generally boring lot"
19:21:15 <oerjan> i'm not entirely sure how much came of it. rishon _did_ collapse, but i'm not sure if it was agorans' fault
19:21:19 <ais523> ah, not way, it was sworn enemy
19:21:29 <ais523> oerjan: it collapsed just after repelling an Agoran invasion, for unrelated reasons
19:21:40 <Taneb> How could you invade?
19:21:46 <Taneb> How would that even work?
19:22:00 <ais523> basically, you try to force a rule into the other nomic's ruleset
19:22:55 <Taneb> Nomic's a meta-metagame
19:23:43 <Taneb> I think it actually is
19:24:03 * oerjan gets hit by a falling anvil, just in case
19:25:09 <Taneb> The rules define how to define the rules
19:28:03 <itidus20> so ais, i know this will be a fun question but i didn't want to hog it... what sort of rules do they try to force into the other Nomic's ruleset?
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19:30:45 <oerjan> i think agora went for trying to get rishon to declare agora their masters, or something
19:32:03 <oerjan> i vaguely recall there may have been something about making that rule unrepealable, as well
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19:49:03 <Taneb> When does a game of Nomic become a Micronation?
19:51:43 <ais523> so far yet, none have managed it, so we don't know
19:51:49 <ais523> Agora tried at one point
19:53:57 <itidus20> so are their any constraints on the game? is it confined to a forum or text type of thing?
19:54:08 <oerjan> what does a micronation have that a nomic doesn't
19:54:28 <oerjan> itidus20: all constraints are temporary, in principle
19:54:38 <oerjan> since they can be repealed
19:55:20 <oerjan> nomic has been played on many fora, i'm not sure if any have moved to a radically different one...
19:55:28 <itidus20> i don't think it would be right of me to say that some players will necessarily be evil...
19:55:35 <itidus20> i just don't understand human nature well enough
19:55:38 <oerjan> oh wait frc is of course an example
19:55:45 <oerjan> it moved from nomic world to email
19:56:08 <itidus20> well, suppose for example that some nomic players met up in a shopping center
19:56:18 <itidus20> they might be trapped in a kind of limbo between the two worlds
19:56:28 <oerjan> itidus20: my first nomic game was around a table in a gaming club
19:56:52 <Taneb> Did it get very far?
19:57:05 <oerjan> then someone posted a link to nomic world on the club's email list, and there i was.
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19:57:17 <oerjan> Taneb: it was a one evening thing
19:57:30 <itidus20> oerjan: well.. ok like a contrasting game is truth or dare
19:57:48 <Taneb> Agora is older than me
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19:58:02 <itidus20> .. truth or dare being like a ventilation system of the inhibitions and ceaseless agony of existence
19:58:08 <oerjan> itidus20: you _could_ include real life elements, i guess.
19:58:22 <itidus20> i mean all hell could break loose
19:58:23 * oerjan has never played truth or date, anyway
19:58:23 <ais523> <oerjan> what does a micronation have that a nomic doesn't <--- Aerica complained that the situation was the reverse, that Agora wasn't a micronation because it had victory conditions
19:58:36 <ais523> is truth or date some sort of truth or dare modification?
19:59:03 <itidus20> oerjan: well.. so.. playing around a table at a gaming club... what is the substance of the game? is it played through talking?
19:59:18 <oerjan> perhaps a freudian slip, i've heard _some_ truth and dares can get into such territory
20:00:36 <itidus20> truth or dare is just like an excuse for horny teenagers to make out and laugh at embarassing moments in history
20:00:57 <oerjan> itidus20: ok so you are saying it's _most_ truth and dares. o kay
20:01:24 <itidus20> oerjan: ok what i mean though... is..
20:01:36 <itidus20> truth or dare does invoke real life consequences
20:01:50 <itidus20> it would be dangerous if nomic ever combined itself with truth or dare somehow
20:02:02 <ais523> invoking real life consequences is the whole purpose of truth or dare, isn't it?
20:02:11 <ais523> reveal some embarassing fact, or do something to create a new embarassing fact?
20:02:22 <oerjan> itidus20: peter suber's original ruleset was intended for table play, anyway. play went around the table with players taking turns. the original ruleset of agora had already removed that aspect.
20:02:47 <ais523> apparently, people who've played in-person nomic say that having a word processor handy is helpful
20:03:07 <itidus20> lawyers would probably be good at it
20:03:11 <oerjan> itidus20: nomic has a "you can always quit instead" rule for such situations, anyway.
20:03:16 <MDude> Tooth or Bear: Each turn, either take out your own tooth, or wrestle a bear.
20:04:09 <itidus20> oerjan: i am so boring to discuss such things
20:04:59 <MDude> SOunds like it would be rather difficult to teach a comptuer to play nomi, since it would have to understand arbitrary new rules.
20:05:02 <oerjan> itidus20: oh i vaguely recall agora once passed a rule that all players should brush their teeth properly :P there was a following judgement to the effect that agora _could_ affect real life things, iirc
20:05:35 <oerjan> i'm not aware that anything else of the kind has been done
20:05:50 <itidus20> oerjan: theres probably erotic Nomics :P
20:06:35 <Taneb> Rule 34 or whatever
20:06:41 <Taneb> There's erotic everything
20:06:53 <itidus20> the BDSM community would really take to it
20:06:54 <Taneb> There's probably an erotic esoteric programming language out there
20:08:27 <oerjan> `addquote <MDude> Tooth or Bear: Each turn, either take out your own tooth, or wrestle a bear.
20:08:28 <HackEgo> 561) <MDude> Tooth or Bear: Each turn, either take out your own tooth, or wrestle a bear.
20:09:02 <itidus20> well real life is very complicated. something like Nomic is best to stay in its own dimension
20:09:12 <oerjan> <itidus20> oerjan: i am so boring to discuss such things <-- beware of self fulfilling thought patterns
20:09:23 <oerjan> i say that in the most hypocritical way possible
20:11:03 <itidus20> The way I am trying to view life lately is that everything is going to go wrong around me... and that I just have to make something of my time and energy in the space i've got left for myself
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20:11:57 <oerjan> MDude: there have been programming language "nomics", btw. but there the players had to actually make the code to make the game do what they wanted. it solves the understanding problem, since the players cannot code that requirement :P
20:12:37 <oerjan> well i guess the computer wasn't really a player there
20:12:53 <itidus20> There are those who will try to say "it's not so bad".. but you know.. the world really is that bad... it really is.. but so what? who is really listening when you complain about the state of things?
20:13:17 <itidus20> so.. you have to take responsibility for what you can do
20:13:32 <itidus20> because.. noone is ever going to make everything ok
20:13:55 <MDude> Well, it's not like you shouldn't take responsibility anyway.
20:13:59 <coppro> ok, I need to get involved in this conversation at some point
20:14:35 <itidus20> i have to back away from the conversation because i tend to hog chats
20:15:00 <coppro> everything will not go wrong
20:15:08 <coppro> everything will not go right either
20:15:38 <monqy> not everything will go
20:17:05 <itidus20> When I have to stop and ask myself, "why do they do this to me?", at that point I realize that I have the power to change my situation in small ways, and it is my choice whether I exercize that or not.
20:17:44 <monqy> why does who do what
20:20:10 <itidus20> salespeople, loansharks, ponzi schemers...
20:20:15 <oerjan> fungot: are you familiar with Them?
20:20:15 <fungot> oerjan: what the hell is that??? you are quite a sn0b
20:20:36 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
20:21:12 <itidus20> spyware, software installers with browser toolbars which can only be turned off by clicking a subtle checkbox,
20:21:29 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
20:21:37 <fungot> Lymee: it was a rough parallel in all essential features of the dead
20:21:39 <itidus20> facebook wreaking havoc with your privacy, lulzsec revealing your details
20:21:50 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
20:21:53 <fungot> Lymee: master of thieves: there was a handsome young man lifted the sword and thrust with both arms; the blade broke the surface, the prince himself is about the newspaper stories which recounted the alleged existence of creatures in the depths of the shopkeep logic ( hence our former mailing list address).
20:22:33 <itidus20> makeup product testing on animals
20:22:53 <monqy> itidus20: is there a word for people like you
20:23:12 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
20:23:13 <itidus20> ENDLESS junkmail in my email inbox
20:23:18 <fungot> Lymee: air france? typical american, you ll never see youtube with this jaybad... he is like the punching kola ad and the airbus
20:23:27 <itidus20> endless spam in blog comment sections
20:23:42 <itidus20> endless automated signups leading to the creation of captchas
20:24:21 <itidus20> endless car thefts leading to sensitive car alarms that are triggered by a strong wind
20:25:02 <monqy> itidus20: so these are them?
20:25:09 <monqy> itidus20: and what did they do to you specifically
20:25:24 <itidus20> they force me into the corner to hide
20:25:41 <itidus20> they are out there everyday stalking
20:26:04 <monqy> there has to be a better word for you
20:26:10 <itidus20> they ARE after me... they are after anyone they can get their clutches on
20:26:25 <itidus20> its just probability that they don't get the opportunity
20:27:02 <itidus20> i am sure i haven't managed to cast a wide enough net to define "them" though
20:29:09 <itidus20> but, also, there is a trickle down effect... they do take their damage.. and it trickles down to everyone. everyone needing to pass the buck
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20:30:10 <oerjan> a finn. hide everyone!
20:30:37 <itidus20> sort of like if there is an economic plane which is a manifold and heavy balls were dropped on it distorting it in places
20:31:34 <itidus20> like.. if a father is beaten up.. their family was dependant on him for economic security.. and the pressure on everyone builds up
20:31:45 <itidus20> or if someone is on drugs.. and has to steal from their family
20:31:58 <Cheery> but.. I'm about as esoteric as what are you all non-finns..
20:32:13 <oerjan> itidus20: all i know is that while not thinking about those kind of things doesn't necessarily make my day a good one, _all_ my good days are when i manage to avoid it.
20:32:31 <olsner> Cheery: the question is, how glove are you?
20:33:17 <Cheery> olsner: as much as what a herd of cats is.
20:33:49 <olsner> ouch! I think that's too glove, but hopefully that's glove enough
20:34:43 <oerjan> Cheery: no finns here. _especially_ not fizzie or Deewiant. or tswett, even if he sounds like one at times.
20:35:21 <tswett> Kaive ottani ei olla espataa elmä soo.
20:35:48 <Cheery> that sounds like estonian.
20:36:04 <tswett> I wouldn't be surprised if Estonians thought it sounded like Finnish.
20:37:07 <oerjan> tswett: according to google, you failed to make two of those words untranslatable
20:37:42 <tswett> Well, "ei" and "olla" are definitely real words. Any others?
20:38:30 <olsner> after applying the suggested corrections of the finnish text, google gives me "Ozone can not be a drain espataa life soo."
20:38:55 <olsner> (ooh! I see the matrix of solidity has made a comeback in the topic, good stuff)
20:39:46 <oerjan> olsner: darn i was hoping i had escaped
20:40:27 <olsner> there's a reason it's called the matrix of *solidity*, you know
20:40:59 <oerjan> well i thought if i drank enough, i'd become fluid instead
20:41:01 <Cheery> funniest thing I know about estonia is that there is a city called 'hawk' they have tried to cover from their map.
20:41:26 <Cheery> because 'hawk' in estonian sounds much like 'dick' in finnish.
20:42:16 <oerjan> friendship town: Fucking, Austria
20:42:57 <oerjan> (note: not actually true)
20:43:25 <oerjan> unless it happens to be, let's check
20:43:30 <Cheery> " are definitely real words. Any others?
20:43:30 <Cheery> 23:37 < oerjan> beats me
20:43:41 <Cheery> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=viro+kulli&hl=en&ll=58.636935,26.334229&spn=4.868035,7.756348&sll=58.378679,26.312256&sspn=2.451155,3.878174&t=h&z=7
20:44:05 <fizzie> "ottani" is a plausible dialectical way of saying "otsani", i.e. "my forehead".
20:44:57 <Cheery> there seems to be multiple 'kulli' in estonia
20:45:02 <fizzie> And "kaive" could I guess be some sort of a digging; from "kaivaa" 'to dig'; also "kaiverrus" 'engraving'. But I don't think it's quite a standard word.
20:46:06 <fizzie> And "soo soo" is what you can say to a young child who has behaved badly.
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20:46:39 <Cheery> "kaive" the gap between buttocks
20:47:25 <Cheery> or something else you might dig into
20:47:39 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: always downhill
20:47:50 <Cheery> I wonder when it goes uphill..
20:48:08 <olsner> well, it goes uphill backwards in time
20:48:18 <oerjan> "In 2009, the European Union's OHIM trademarks agency forbade a German brewery to market a beer called "Fucking Hell". It appealed, and was granted permission in January 2010 to market the beer.[23] It claims the beer is named after the Austrian village Fucking and the German term for pale lager, Hell."
20:48:43 <Cheery> I guess it does that when the variable underflows.
20:49:16 <olsner> arbitrary-precision suckage
20:49:47 <Cheery> so it's like worldwide economy then?
20:49:56 <Cheery> except that it's always downways instead of upwards..
20:50:55 <Cheery> "kaive ottani ei olla espataa elmä soo." <- if you wonder at this thing. it really means nothing in finnish even though someone might think it's estonian
20:51:00 <oerjan> > let depth = exp(100) in ceiling depth
20:51:01 <lambdabot> 26881171418161356094253400435962903554686976
20:51:28 <oerjan> > let debt = exp(100) in ceiling debt -- i can't spel
20:51:29 <lambdabot> 26881171418161356094253400435962903554686976
20:51:54 <Cheery> or then.. it could also be drunkspeak
20:52:15 <monqy> 26881171418161356094253400435962903554686976 is pretty deep
20:52:23 <oerjan> Cheery: i wasn't particularly wondering. this _is_ tswett, after all.
20:52:43 <oerjan> monqy: yeah hard to dig oneself out of
20:52:54 <Cheery> "kai se ottava ei ole espanja enmä osaa sanoa"
20:53:07 <monqy> digging upwards is my favourite sport and hobby
20:54:24 <Cheery> I could try continue my language project..
20:54:30 <Cheery> except that it's again night. :)
20:54:44 <monqy> night time is best time
20:54:50 <Cheery> and I've spent my daytime playing games, talking, driving a car and shopping.
20:56:19 <Cheery> it involves personally handwritten retargetable compiler backend.
20:56:25 <Taneb> I managed to read that as make a brainfuck IDE
20:57:19 <Cheery> if you like to kill people by virtually stabbing them. you could try: http://www.kongregate.com/games/icecreambreakfst/racing-comrade
20:57:27 <Taneb> Whicch would certainly be interesting
20:59:21 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hey i have a project involving brainfuck neener neener
21:00:22 <oerjan> also, no one found a way to calculate n%2 in 3 cells while preserving n :(
21:01:29 <oerjan> i _think_ i can manage to end the main loop on a finite, fixed set of values, but that's sort of unsatisfying
21:01:29 <Cheery> basicly, if I'd get off from the unproductivity cycle, I'd get on to writing stuff that converts bunch of expressions in a program flow graph into thin amount of assembly language in x86 and nvidia gtx460
21:02:01 <oerjan> at least it's enough to do decision problems
21:02:21 <Cheery> then I'd continue from that by implementing a language, so I can implement graphical IDE in the language so I can skip parsing entirely.
21:02:43 <Cheery> then I'd rewrite the whole compiler in the language I just created.
21:03:46 <oerjan> Cheery: you mean making a language without a text syntax?
21:05:11 <Cheery> I played with the editing concepts but distracted into other things entirely, and then I distracted into doing compiler stuff, which is indeed very useful for all of my earlier projects.
21:07:07 * oerjan looks at BRB and notes that for most esolangs, the _more_ commands they have the _less_ interesting they are
21:08:06 <Cheery> more commands means more crap anyway
21:08:30 <oerjan> befunge being an exception
21:08:38 <Cheery> I've got some sort of semi esoteric semi production -thingy as goal.
21:08:57 <Cheery> and I'm not sure whether it's even esoteric after all then..
21:09:08 <pikhq> oerjan: Just a special instance of the general scenario in software: the more stuff your software has, the worse it is.
21:10:45 <Cheery> except that in some cases the complexity can be handled and it's actually awesome.
21:11:21 <oerjan> (ok haskell has some creaky parts too)
21:11:27 <pikhq> There's necessary and unnecessary complexity.
21:11:39 <pikhq> Most complexity is unnecessary.
21:13:11 <itidus20> Cheery: I think if it is developed without anyone investing any money then it is esoteric
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21:13:38 <itidus20> that might be going too far though,,,
21:13:52 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, it's going so far that light takes ten minutes to reach it.
21:14:15 <itidus20> the assumption there is that all these 1000s of people who learn to make compilers don't actually ever invent their own languages
21:14:17 <Taneb> That's further than the sun!
21:14:44 <Taneb> And the sun's pretty far away
21:14:45 <itidus20> or if they do they're kept private
21:14:58 <oerjan> itidus20: well there are all kinds of money, do academic grants count?
21:15:33 <Taneb> I think an esoteric language is defined as being designed to be unusable
21:15:40 <oerjan> because it may be just a matter of many people don't having _time_ to make anything big without being paid.
21:15:42 <Cheery> itidus20: I don't know whether 'doing your own language' auto-ensures esoteric.. or wait
21:16:06 <itidus20> ok ill cluster bomb my definition
21:16:07 <oerjan> Taneb: that's a bit far in the other direction again
21:16:27 <Taneb> Linux was a doing your own operating system
21:16:46 <pikhq> Taneb: An esoteric language is defined as being strange.
21:16:48 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, yeah, just get oko to go on about how he gets paid to study esolangs.
21:17:05 <itidus20> 1) no funding 2) not done as part of schoolwork/academic work 3) no committee 4) non-commercial
21:17:10 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well he would have to be HERE for that.
21:17:37 <itidus20> ok so.. esolangs can be studied >.<
21:17:48 <itidus20> i dont think i am the one to define it then..
21:18:01 <itidus20> i am mixing esolang with indielang
21:18:09 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, nah, he could bang on about it from inside a sealed metal box.
21:18:50 <oerjan> one case: is P'' an esolang? böhm was probably paid in some way.
21:19:13 <Taneb> P'' was a thingy to prove something
21:19:29 <Taneb> That goto-less imperative languages can be turing complete
21:19:38 <oerjan> it wasn't intended as "eso", but many of those initial TC formalisms are indistinguishable from what we consider quality in an esolang
21:19:59 <monqy> better than mordern esolangs
21:20:00 <Taneb> Imagine programming in Code 110
21:22:03 <monqy> how did i misspell modern
21:22:09 <Taneb> Hell, imagine programming in a tag system
21:22:21 <Taneb> Maybe it was freudian?
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21:22:43 <Taneb> Like, you aspire to be like Sauron or something
21:23:14 <monqy> I hardly know what that is
21:23:16 <oerjan> <itidus20> [...] 3) no committee [...] <-- objection. magenta was made by committee. also the 1.Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory, although it failed.
21:23:44 <olsner> one does not simply goto mordor;
21:23:53 <oerjan> ... in which oerjan bickers about automatic copying of item numbers
21:24:14 <Taneb> I was waiting for that
21:24:22 <oerjan> I WAS PONDERING WHETHER TO SWAT OR BAN
21:24:45 <Cheery> except I'd do that quite easily I guess..
21:25:16 <Cheery> http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/1359404/One+does+not+simply+QWOP+into+Mordor/
21:25:25 <Taneb> olsner: the veloceraptors will get you
21:26:41 <Taneb> Are there any implemented esoteric operating systems?
21:27:18 <monqy> by what standard of esoteric/operating system
21:28:16 <Taneb> An OS that could concievably have an article on the wiki is considered esoteric for this purpose
21:28:24 <Cheery> if all you need to do is an operating system.. then you're quite easily esoteric
21:28:46 <Taneb> Implemented in that I could get it on a computer and boot it
21:29:47 <monqy> but what is an operating system
21:29:57 <itidus20> ok fair enough my definition failed
21:30:26 <monqy> this seems to happen a lot
21:32:01 <olsner> making something sufficiently esoteric runs the risk of failing to make it an operating system
21:33:51 <Taneb> I know nothing about making operating systems
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21:33:59 <Taneb> If I did, I would probably do this
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21:34:56 <oerjan> itidus20: esolangs are similar to nomic in that whatever restrictions you try to make, _someone_ is going to try something not fitting in it :P
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21:38:14 <Taneb> Dammiit, I'm 9 years and 41 weeks of experience off becoming a "Cloud Evangelist" for Canonical
21:38:39 <olsner> What does that even mean.
21:39:39 <Taneb> It's the guy who says "This is cool! C'mon, folks!"
21:39:51 <monqy> still not getting it
21:40:07 <Taneb> About Cloud computing
21:40:17 <Taneb> Specifically with Ubuntu
21:40:55 <monqy> I don't get all the fuss over it
21:41:02 <monqy> only some of the fuss
21:41:06 <oerjan> is that like those 20 years experience with java requirements?
21:41:30 <monqy> 20 years is a lot of java experience
21:41:50 <oerjan> i guess java does not fit very well as an example any longer
21:41:53 <Taneb> In twenty years time, I'd be 36
21:42:22 <Taneb> In 60 years time, I might be coming up to retirement
21:42:49 <Cheery> I guess you won't find anyone doing *programming* who has that long experience of mainstream languages
21:51:50 <Cheery> I can't simply imagine a person with internal drive towards programming would stay away from other languages and wouldn't become able of using many other languages he'd much more prefer than java.
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22:02:16 <ais523> oerjan: there have been cases of people rejecting one of the early Java testers (from before it was publicly released) for not having enough Java experience
22:13:58 <Taneb> I wonder if there's an eclipse plugin for Befunge developement?
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22:15:44 <Vorpal> hm, I just found out that Torvalds went xfce due to hating gnome 3. Calling it a step down compared to gnome 2 but a huge step up compared to gnome 3
22:15:53 <Vorpal> I have to agree completely
22:16:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, downgrading major things like gtk+ and glib is always going to be a pita
22:16:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, further, who is going to maintain gnome 2?
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23:04:51 <fizzie> Didn't they say next Ubuntu (11.10) is dropping classic Gnome desktop completely, in favour of Unity (with a 2D-Unity for machines with less 3D hardware horsepower)?
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23:21:35 <cheater> fizzie, something like that. i want to see it. it'll be great, i think.
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23:26:00 <elliott> fizzie: Um, they already did.
23:26:00 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
23:26:24 <elliott> Thus making Ubuntu completely unusable without manual installation.
23:30:18 <elliott> And I gave an honest, complete effort to love and use it when the last Ubuntu came out.
23:30:26 <elliott> I looked past all its implementation flaws.
23:30:32 <elliott> It really is horrendous at the core.
23:31:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Everyone's struggled through one or two horrendous interfaces because they needed to.
23:33:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: When that interface is your /entire desktop/...
23:33:30 <elliott> Windows 95's desktop is, all sincerity, more usable than Unity.
23:34:03 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, would a precis of why it's awful be too much to ask for@?
23:37:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, because I've summarised on here before; no, I don't remember log dates.
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23:54:48 <elliott> 10:54:51: <fizzie> ^style something-else-except-that-agora-nonsense
23:55:23 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: he was a glitch in the accident was the kid pissed me off, was beautiful... geezzz... didn't see half of these
23:55:29 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher homestuck ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube*
23:55:41 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
23:55:44 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: your sylladex will prevent it from being destroyed: 4/ 13, 1910, exactly, numskull. might as well just use that? i mean from your tree? with all your amaaaaaaaazing powers.
23:57:00 <elliott> fungot: that was like the most stereotypical line you could possibly blurt out in that style btw
23:57:04 <fungot> elliott: his birthday is in a few minutes.
23:57:06 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it was just a glitch in the accident
23:57:06 <fungot> elliott: what, the last one. wait no, that just made you disappear" and stuff?
23:57:10 <fungot> elliott: you like to chat up one of those other clowns prototyped. go me t0 break it first before moving
23:57:29 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, come on, there's got to be a death threat or two in there somewhere.
23:57:29 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: and in time, though prone to do that
23:57:42 <elliott> 10:57:54: <itidus20> fungot, what is your opinion of brainfuck?
23:57:42 <fungot> elliott: is it possible for one of your b100d and a beating heart. you can be as good a time as any
23:57:42 <elliott> 10:57:54: <fungot> itidus20: that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alon
23:57:42 <fungot> elliott: an old colonel lost, but a new brother gained. together they will ascend, each time you must be adventurin'.
23:57:43 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: just as i was initially believed they were new additions. for that. busy
23:58:07 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> elliott: an old colonel lost, but a new brother gained. together they will ascend, each time you must be adventurin'.
23:58:07 <fungot> elliott: it was a big goofy adult. seems like that's the only sort. if it were up to him we would try to be these mysterious characters but you suspect. what a royal mess of his lovely new horseleather bib. it just so happens that today, the 13th of april. another day of uneventful but highly satisfying
23:58:09 <HackEgo> 562) <fungot> elliott: an old colonel lost, but a new brother gained. together they will ascend, each time you must be adventurin'.
23:58:22 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it is a hate so pure and... pumpkin seeds?
23:58:33 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: you really wish your side.
23:58:38 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: you pick the time that happens, right. some numbers are already supplied are being cross-referenced with understandings i already was.
23:58:43 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it is a hate so pure and... pumpkin seeds?
23:58:43 <fungot> elliott: your name is john. is that correct? ok, whatever it does. perhaps you will take this from the top. ve l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v l. v
23:58:44 <HackEgo> 563) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it is a hate so pure and... pumpkin seeds?
23:59:04 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: but it is your journey i am just as confused. you will have your questions answered, but they kind with this mutant candy-red blood. an outcast. he thinks it's about to be. someone needs to grab the beta ( 6) in the room. he briefly speaks to its strife! quota for the day. she simply returns to the land of thought and focus on the matter
23:59:45 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, are you so confused as to threaten to kill me?
23:59:46 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: though the fact that this is apparently a bull penis, and a beating heart. you can be as good a time as any to start a new memo