00:10:06 Probably another feature of the sonic screwdriver. 00:10:20 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:12:27 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 00:16:33 help 00:16:33 Phantom_Hoover: You have 11 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 00:16:40 Wait, is that the actual temperature where you are? 00:19:27 oerjan, pikhq_: There was a special in the new series... 00:19:52 * Phantom_Hoover notes that for some reason his DF fortress has no food. 00:20:06 I'll just wait for the tantrum spiral, then. 00:20:07 Phantom_Hoover: Your Dwarf Fortress Fortress? 00:20:24 NihilistDandy, I decided that it was necessary for disambiguation. 00:25:14 * Phantom_Hoover decides to dig through damp stone. 00:28:40 -!- augur has joined. 00:45:58 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 01:16:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:16:26 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:17:57 -!- cheater__ has joined. 01:21:20 -!- cheater_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:48:18 -!- comex has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:09:04 -!- evincar has joined. 02:20:50 -!- lament has joined. 02:22:22 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 02:39:05 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 03:03:01 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 03:47:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:14:41 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: To bed!). 04:22:30 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:22:30 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 04:22:30 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:41:51 -!- variable has quit (Quit: I found 1 in /dev/zero). 04:42:12 I started making the prettyprinting literate Haskell program in TeX, now what I have so far it works. Now I have to make the other parts too. 04:42:58 -!- variable has joined. 04:45:21 -!- pumpkin has joined. 04:48:09 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin_. 04:48:50 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:52:42 is there a name for a numbering system where every single positive integer has a distinct symbol? 04:53:05 unary 04:53:10 I don't know. 04:53:40 nah, its the extremme opposite of unary 04:54:21 unary gives each positive integer a distinct symbol 04:55:06 i thought unary was where every positive integer got a different sized collection of the same symbol 04:55:27 aka, n is n digits long 04:55:45 unary = tick marks. 1, 11, 111, 1111 04:55:45 coppro: Are you sure? 04:55:46 etc 04:55:46 and i'm talking about where n is one digit long for all n 04:56:00 i guess you could call it base infinity 04:56:05 zzo38: yes 04:56:09 he's talking about an infinite number of symbols. I don't think that has a name. 04:56:10 quintopia: Yes it is wat I would think 04:56:13 -!- copumpkin_ has changed nick to copumpkin. 04:56:15 quintopia: define a digit 04:56:21 usually alphabet sets are restricted to be finite. 04:56:35 11 can be taken to be a single symbol 04:56:43 except it's not. it's two.. 04:56:44 that just happens to be a repitition of a subsymbol 04:56:47 in the unary system. 04:56:59 CakeProphet: suppose I have two images 04:57:00 i think you know what i mean now 04:57:07 I can make a new image by putting them next to each other 04:57:13 it is the numbering system using an infinite alphabet 04:57:14 quintopia: no because that requires an infinite alphabet which is dumb 04:57:28 it is not dumb 04:58:11 becuase youll only ever need a finite subset of the digits, its basically the same as "base x, where x is the largest number you need right now" 04:58:27 symbols aren't images though. You don't make new symbols from existing symbols. You could invent a similar algorithm for decimal system by saying that 23, 24, 25, etc are all distinct symbols. But we call these "symbols" strings, not symbols... 04:59:02 i just saw a minecraft display system where binary numbers are split into separate symbols for each number, and the each segment of the display is wired to the symbols that need to drive that segment 04:59:43 and i feel like that middle step probably has a name 04:59:58 its obviously modular to do as many different numbers as you need 05:01:35 how are the symbols constructed. 05:01:58 I think the whole "base k" term implies a positional system, and I don't think it really counts when you only ever use one digit. But that's just an opinion. 05:02:02 each is a wire 05:02:07 i could link it 05:02:23 so 1 wire = 1, 2 wires = 2, ...? 05:02:31 fizzie: i agree. which is why i originally asked 05:03:01 CakeProphet: no, there is a wire for 1, a wire for 2, a wire for 3, etc. 05:04:01 only one wire can be active at a time 05:04:54 so a symbol here is "a collection of wires distinguished by the one that is active" 05:05:12 obviously every number has a different symbol 05:06:40 the pythagoreans used a similar system "let k be symbolized by a line segment of length k" 05:09:23 okay so the wires aren't really the symbols they just signify if a symbol is on or off. What are the symbols themselves? 05:09:43 or... are they the symbols? 05:10:33 but in either case, I'd probably say that "baseless" is a good description of this numeral system. 05:10:55 this is unary 05:10:56 what is the difference between a signifier of a symbol, and a symbol 05:10:58 but I don't know of an existed term, no. 05:11:06 i'm thinking i agree with patashu 05:11:17 it is all unary in disguise 05:11:22 but it's not..... 05:11:36 it's equivalent to the system where you turn wire 1 on for 1, 1+2 on for 2, 1+2+3 on for 3... 05:11:38 which is unary 05:11:45 yes 05:11:50 in unary, you take the length of all of your symbols and that is the number that it represents. This system does not work this way 05:11:59 you could have 3 symbols turned on and they would not represent 3. 05:12:19 because the symbols could each represent a number greater than 1. 05:12:20 you could say "the distance in wires from the zero point to the active wire" 05:12:38 whether that space is filled with ones or zeroes is irrelevant 05:12:46 the greek system is unary too 05:12:58 okay so the symbols are added together? 05:13:10 they concatenate their length 1 tick marks end to end rather than side by side 05:14:11 okay so it's base 1 but there is more than one symbol. 05:15:22 nah i think it is just that unary should best be understood as "a number represented by the appropriate measurement of a potentially infinitely long/detailed symbol" 05:16:37 I'm pretty sure unary just means that you have one arbitrarily chosen symbol that represents 1, and each number N is represented by repeating the symbol N times. Changing the definition would make it inconsistent with the rest of bases. 05:16:41 thanks for clarifying my thoughts 05:16:58 There's a non-positional system of Greek numerals; they have separate digits for 1, 2, ..., 9, 10, 20, ..., 90, 100, 200, ..., 900, and then you denote numbers by a group of 1, 2 or 3 of those. But that's not quite "one symbol for each number", and I don't think it has any special name either. 05:17:02 unary is already inconsistent with the other bases 05:17:16 how so? 05:17:34 well, traditionally there is no 0. 05:17:51 the length of a base n number is log(x)/log(n) 05:18:10 for n=1, this comes out undefined 05:19:12 Base-k is supposed to have digits from 0 to k-1; so "base 1" should have just a 0; also the value of a string is d_0*b^n + d_1*b^(n-1) + ... + d_n*b^0, so if b=0 and d_n=0 for all d_n, 0 is the only number you can represent. 05:19:38 People still call it base-1 though. 05:19:42 fizzie: the choice of symbol is irrelevant. 1 is the single symbol for most unary systems, you could use 0 as well. 05:20:32 so you see again unary is inconsistent with other bases 05:20:44 yes, there is no zero, as I said. 05:21:03 in other bases, the positions of symbols matters, in unary, only the "length" of the string matters 05:21:06 CakeProphet: Well, you're entitled to your opinion; I believe saying "base K" should imply you have a positional symbol with that base, and the value of a string is computed by adding multiplied copies of base^n. That's not what happens with unary. 05:21:48 Okay, I sort-of guess it works with powers of one. 05:22:00 which is why one can write unary numbers as line segments of a prescribed length 05:23:11 I'm just saying that qhat quintopia is talking about isn't the standard definition of the unary number system, in the strictest sense. What he's talking about eitherh as a different name, is a modification of unary, or has not been named. 05:23:42 you said yourself the choice of symbol doesnt matter CakeProphet 05:24:05 yes but unary has /one/ symbol. two if you use a special zero symbol. 05:24:07 You could call unary bijective base-1 though. 05:24:10 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:24:46 so what if instead of zeroes or ones, i choose as my symbol "the number of non-wire regions between wires before the first active wire" 05:24:55 that is just as good as 0 or 1 05:25:06 each nonwire region 05:25:51 and really, the symbols dont have to be the same all the way through 05:26:14 for instance, the length of a string over the english alphabet 05:26:40 a garble of a's and b's and c's is just as good as a long line of 1's 05:26:51 since only the length defines the number 05:27:02 okay sleeptiems 05:27:11 well, that does sound quite similar to unary at least. I was going by an earlier explanation that didn't seem to fit unary. 05:35:11 Computer Modern fonts does not have the "double-sharp" sign 05:44:25 > join . replicate (length "111") $ length "11111" 05:44:26 Couldn't match expected type `[a]' 05:44:26 against inferred type `GHC.Types... 05:44:41 > join . replicate (length "111") $ "11111" 05:44:44 "111111111111111" 05:45:51 division will be a bit more difficult. 05:46:17 integer division, specifically. 05:46:35 which brings up an interesting question. If extend unary to the real numbers, then what is 1.111 05:46:52 I don't think that represents anything. 05:47:03 .1 is 1 05:47:04 I think 05:47:12 Because .1 in binary is 1/2, .1 in ternary is 1/3 and so on 05:47:16 so .1 in unary is... 1/1! 05:47:21 :eng101: 05:47:35 so the unary system can't describe all of the real numbers. 05:47:48 only integers. 05:48:21 yup! 05:48:50 just as places left of the decimal point are all equivalent, places right of the decimal point are all equivalent 05:48:59 right. 05:49:25 unary is essentially devoid of place value at all. 05:51:26 Woah o.O 05:51:29 I'm looking at the spectogram for this song 05:51:30 * Patashu np: 12120. Klippa - [So #01] The Tree [01:45/02:38] 05:51:32 and it has poplar trees in it 05:51:35 I wonder if it's a coincident 05:51:37 *coincidence 05:53:43 coincidence. It's probably just heavier in the bass frequencies. 05:54:37 I'll show you a picture 05:54:57 though it could not be coincidence, actually. There is an Aphex Twin track where Richard James encoded a picture of his face into the spectrogram (when view on a logarithmic scale) 05:55:10 *viewed 05:58:57 http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Mechadragon/thetree.png 05:59:06 do you see it? 05:59:11 it's like a little forest of 8 poplars 06:08:00 There are quite a lot of "things hidden in spectrogram" songs, I believe. 06:08:17 That image looks quite coincidental though. 06:09:35 Or at least something that could easily be coincidental. 06:38:17 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .). 07:02:33 -!- olsner has joined. 07:21:00 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 07:30:58 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 07:30:58 -!- pikhq has joined. 07:49:17 -!- Deewiant_ has joined. 07:51:14 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:10:50 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 08:15:26 -!- nooga has joined. 08:17:20 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:17:45 -!- copumpkin has joined. 08:41:35 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:56:12 -!- Taneb has joined. 08:56:50 Hello! 08:59:14 So, what's up? 09:01:17 Not much, I guess 09:02:00 No, it all fell down. 09:03:01 -!- Deewiant_ has changed nick to Deewiant. 09:03:50 Well, I'm now experimenting with clients 09:06:12 It doesn't sound like good PR to say that out loud. 09:10:06 No such thing as bad advertising 09:16:46 Well, just worked out I'll probably be in London on my birthday 09:17:29 And I'll be on TV the day afterwards 09:18:42 And in jail the day after that? 09:18:51 Sounds like quite a celebration. 09:20:09 IN THE SAME BUILDING WHERE RUPERT MURDOCH GOT PIED! 09:20:41 Also, I need breakfast. 09:22:30 Having breakfast now 09:27:31 Had breakfast 09:29:47 A quick breakfast. 09:30:18 A multi-level breakfast can breakfast through any number of surrounding loops. 09:35:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 09:35:24 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 09:42:52 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 09:45:10 I combined the wholegrain breakfast and chocolatey breakfast for maximum breakfast efficiency 09:45:40 Now I must leave 09:45:47 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: He's a big quitter he is). 09:48:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:52:37 What are the haps my friends. 09:56:00 Today it's been mostly about breakfasts. 10:19:49 -!- FireyFly has joined. 10:20:56 i hate jargon 10:21:12 eh, i mean, notations and jargons 10:24:00 it brings me to a crushing halt reading a mathematical wikipedia article 10:24:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rewriting_system#Abstract_rewriting_systems @ "is the transitive closure of , where is the identity relation, i.e. is the smallest preorder (reflexive and transitive relation) containing . It is also called the reflexive transitive closure of ." 10:25:44 I suppose the logical way to go forward is to examine exactly which terms i cannot understand 10:29:41 and moving on 10:34:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:49:31 it brings me to a crushing halt reading a mathematical wikipedia article 10:49:48 lol 10:49:50 sometimes those are ridiculous even when you _do_ know math 10:50:08 i exaggerated a bit. and typed out the answer :D 10:50:18 ok 10:50:30 but seriously it appears the way to proceed is to list the unknown terms 10:50:41 and to research them 10:50:56 sounds like something i was probably told in school 10:51:43 mhm 11:01:46 lol 11:01:47 -!- Patashu has joined. 11:01:56 I love terminology 11:02:01 it lets us say complex things quickly 11:02:04 -!- Taneb has joined. 11:02:08 transitive closure especially 11:02:12 whoever made that up is a genius 11:02:17 Hello 11:02:54 Transitive closure? 11:03:37 yes 11:05:28 does anyone know of a way of testing whether a number is even or odd in just 3 cells of bf. basically turning n,0,0 -> n, n%2, 0 or something similar which can be used to decide whether to quit a loop 11:05:35 *? 11:06:14 (basically, i'm having trouble getting my fractran encoding to _halt_ :P) 11:07:37 * oerjan checks [[Brainfuck algorithms]] 11:07:58 the body's healing process is insane 11:08:14 in 3 cells? no 11:08:49 Do they not teach the Trivium, anymore? 11:09:48 oerjan: wait do you mean 3 cells on a tape? 11:09:56 yes 11:10:06 ah 11:10:07 hmm 11:10:25 Dandy: there is no teacher:> 11:10:56 I can do an evenness test in 5.. hmm 11:11:23 oh i'm pretty sure i could do it in 4 :P 11:11:32 but that's no fun :( 11:11:43 ooh actually I can do it in 3 11:11:49 itidus20: Le sigh 11:11:51 n,n,0->n,n-1,0 11:12:09 it's important not to lose the n itself, at least if it's odd 11:12:15 oh 11:12:27 actually can still do it 11:12:32 n,n,0->n,n,n-1 11:12:40 preferably in any case 11:12:45 -!- itidus21 has joined. 11:13:31 alternately subtract two from the second and third cells 11:13:53 i don't understand what you mean 11:14:09 n,n,0->n,n,n-1->n,n-2.n-1 etc. 11:14:37 i don't see how to achieve n,n,n-1 btw 11:14:53 oh right.. 11:15:00 hmmm 11:15:07 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 11:16:08 -!- itidus21 has changed nick to itidus20. 11:16:34 oh easy 11:16:43 n,0,0->n,n,0 11:17:09 yes that's ok 11:17:24 then until the second cell is 0, subtract one from the second cell and if (the third cell is 0) then (add 2 to the third cell) then subtract 1 from the third cell 11:17:42 you get n,0,n%2 11:18:03 you can apply this generally to take arbitrary modulus 11:18:35 um that "if (the third cell is 0)" kind of thing is actually a stopping point 11:18:57 do it backwards then 11:19:09 if (the third cell is not 0) then (subtract 2 from it) then add 1 to it 11:19:22 although that works only for base 2 11:19:42 it's not base 2, it's unbounded 11:19:56 I mean taking %2 11:20:00 hmm... 11:20:01 and i'm trying to avoid negatives 11:20:15 why? 11:20:45 that seems arbitrary 11:20:54 so it's a direct improvement on the previous 5 cell algorithm, which i don't think needs them 11:21:02 dude 11:21:08 using negatives is not a flaw 11:21:49 in any case i'm not sure your method works even with negatives. 11:22:07 recall we don't _have_ "if" as a primitive. 11:22:49 Do you need to preserve the number? 11:22:51 it has to be done with loops, and it's awkward to fit things in just 3 cells 11:23:01 Taneb: yes. at least if it's odd. 11:23:14 preferably always, since it would be the final program result. 11:23:35 Hmmm 11:23:49 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 11:24:23 oerjan: given my pointer at n 11:25:19 >[-]>[-]<<[->+>+<<]>>[-<<+>>]<[->[--]+<] 11:25:37 leaves me pointing at the 0 in n,0,n%2 11:26:13 yay 11:26:48 you can shorten it a bit 11:26:48 ok it's 0,n,*n before the [-<<+>>]<[->[--]+<] right 11:26:58 yeah 11:27:11 the first block just moves you to *n,n,0 11:27:42 the second block flips the third cell from 0 to -1 as you decrement the second 11:27:43 oh and actually n,*n,0 before the [->[--]+<] 11:27:52 yeah 11:28:16 coppro: i can do moving things around myself ;P 11:28:26 I know 11:28:33 [->+>+<<]>+[>[--<--<++>>]<][<->]+ could work, haven't checked it 11:28:39 the last block is the only one actually involved in the calculation 11:28:54 coppro: erm [->[--]+<] doesn't halt if n is odd 11:29:07 oerjan: what are you talking about 11:29:14 oh wait duh 11:29:20 oh wait... 11:29:23 no I got that wrong 11:29:37 hmm 11:29:44 this would be easy if I had another 0 to work with 11:29:47 i misinterpreted, but is still expect that [--] to sometimes not halt 11:29:50 yeah 11:29:51 coppro: you don't say :P 11:30:03 *i 11:30:03 oerjan: Do you need a finite-length program too? 11:30:26 fizzie: yes... 11:30:35 oerjan: I take it relying on wraparound is bad? 11:30:49 very bad, unboundedness is essential here 11:31:15 it's supposed to a proof bf is TC with just 3 unbounded cells 11:31:25 ah 11:31:28 *be a 11:31:37 I was just about to ask for context, then I got it 11:33:24 oerjan: I'm going to bed but will think about it 11:33:35 thanks 11:35:54 wait changed my mind I have it 11:36:02 given *n,0,0 11:36:10 Taneb: that [<->] looks rather unlikely, it'll either infloop or do nothing 11:37:38 [->+<[->>+<<]] >> [-<-<+>>] < [-<+>>+<] > 11:37:48 gives you n,0,*n%2 11:37:48 Taneb: i think your main loop also infloops if n is odd 11:38:02 first block gives you 0,n/2+1,n/2 11:38:15 second block gives you n-n%2,n%2,0 11:38:29 third block gives you n,0,n%2 11:38:35 erm n/2 as in integer division? 11:38:37 yeah 11:38:46 wait fuck no 11:38:48 fffff 11:38:48 wouldn't that rather _obliterate_ whether n is even or odd 11:38:59 damn you brainfuck 11:39:16 nvm 11:39:19 glad to see you are getting the genuine fucked experience :P 11:39:19 back to bed 11:39:29 lol 11:39:41 This should be simple. 11:39:45 Why isn't this simple. 11:40:08 oerjan: /win 7 11:40:11 err 11:40:13 something 11:40:22 k actually going back to bed this time 11:40:39 i'm afraid i don't have that window, coppro. unless it's some secret i haven't heard about. 11:41:16 although i have frequently wondered why irssi always makes an empty /win 3 11:45:19 Patashu: those dont look much like trees to me. you should check ou the spectrum of hildegard westerkamp's "beneath the forest floor" for a real image of a forest. it's so uncanny, it's surely intentional. 11:46:03 Taneb: in fact i made that odd/even distinction in the first place to manage to get an extra bit of "are we finished yet" information out of each applied fractran rule. the problem now is just actually extracting that information again on the top level loop... 11:46:28 oerjan: sounds like you saved a layout with a window open to a channel on a net you don't connect to. do another /layout save and it probably won't anymore. 11:47:12 quintopia: i haven't visited non-freenode for years, if ever :P 11:47:38 but let's try it anyhow 11:47:46 I'm going to think about this differently 11:48:02 We have three variables, a, b, and c 11:48:25 We can add or subtract a constant from any of these variable 11:48:35 Taneb: probably a good idea 11:48:50 And we can start a loop that loops while a variable is not 0 11:49:25 and that same variable must be 0 when we end (i don't think there's enough room to do unbalanced loops usefully) 11:49:57 Yes 11:50:28 variable a is equal to an arbitary number, b and c are zero 11:50:46 Call the number initially in a n 11:51:04 What we want is one variable to hold n, and another to hold n%2 11:51:21 or well, let's not exclude unbalanced loops completely. the problem would be finding out where you are afterwards. 11:51:28 -!- boily has joined. 11:51:35 wb boily 11:57:59 taneb: is your goal to determine if a value is even or odd? 11:58:32 Yes 11:58:41 In three cells in brainfuck 12:00:08 do you know its possible? 12:00:12 No 12:00:22 It is with 5 cels 12:00:25 *cells 12:00:37 the only method i could think of needs four 12:00:54 oerjan 12:00:55 ? 12:01:14 Four would be easy 12:01:43 I can think of a way of doing it in four cells too 12:01:56 its a good problem 12:02:30 n,0,0,0. add 2 to b and 1 to c and after each addition check to see which one equals a using d 12:02:35 hmm, not sure if that translates into bf 12:03:41 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 12:11:49 ok I think I have an idea 12:13:21 -!- PatashuPikachuRe has joined. 12:14:29 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:17:32 -!- itidus20 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:23:03 Taneb: yes i believe 4 should be easy. (basically there is then room to include an extra bit of information from the loop i'm using for each fractran rule. although there may be an even simpler way.) 12:25:52 PatashuPikachuRe: the thing is translating to bf frequently means adding an extra cell for flow control... 12:28:27 oops now i'm wondering if _that_ is working again. oh well. 12:31:35 ok so I have what appears to be a solution 12:34:25 .. dammmmmmmmit 12:34:31 yeah it's tricky it's like, one scratch cell per conditional deep you go 12:34:37 where conditional includes things like moving 12:35:21 wait no this is right 12:36:18 hrm k so loops that don't evenly affect the IP hurt my mind 12:36:44 -!- derrik has joined. 12:36:53 yes, also they're hard to use here 12:37:12 but then maybe it could be essential 12:40:43 pretty sure it can be done with them 12:40:55 just need to figure out how to recenter 12:41:04 * coppro turns on light and pulls out whiteboard 12:42:53 well trouble is if you have two cells that need to have an essentially arbitrary value, and the zero you left the loop through, then it seems very hard to check where you are. only if there are two zero cells does it seem reasonable, but can you use that case.. 12:43:10 ok I see how to do it 12:43:23 I will pseudocode because I need to be up in a few hours 12:44:26 * NihilistDandy is on the edge of his seat 12:44:32 basically you have an input stack and an output stack 12:44:45 let n be the input stack and m be the output stack 12:45:33 I've just had a rather stupid idea 12:45:54 wait fuck thta gives no termination codition 12:46:13 still I think what you really want to rely on is the position of the stacks 12:46:30 stack of unaries? 12:46:37 yeah 12:46:41 rather than using value 12:48:24 the thing is, afaict you cannot actually check the position if both "stacks" are filled (i.e. two cells both have arbitrarily large values) 12:50:54 after the end of a loop, you will have either *0,m,n; m,*0,n; or m,n,*0; and neither pair of these can be distinguished 12:51:37 what I'm envisioning is [ (move 1 from n to m) [ (move 1 from n to m and something else) ] (something) ] 12:52:31 coppro: that's essentially the idea i am trying to use for the _inner_ fractran loops. i just cannot see a way to get the information out of the loop... 12:52:40 fractran loop? 12:53:03 um yes, the idea is to convert fractran to brainfuck 12:53:53 i should write that part down properly 12:56:01 how do you write down properly "the idea is to convert fractran to brainfuck" 12:56:04 ? 12:56:46 i mean the inner loop structure for that, which i thought i had clear enough idea of but i'm suddenly unsure. 13:00:52 got it 13:01:05 start with *n,0,m 13:01:16 go to *n-1,0,m+1 13:02:06 now do a if n-1 is nonzero, you go to m,*0,n-1 13:02:44 wait I had it backwards the IP doesn't work that way 13:02:47 fff 13:03:14 is this loop supposed to be unbalanced? 13:03:19 yeah 13:03:22 probably 13:03:36 but not necessarily 13:03:37 well looks possible so far 13:04:04 you are either at *0,0,m+1 or m,*0,n-1 13:04:05 wait yes you can do this 13:04:07 right 13:04:26 now go to 0,*0,m+1 or m,0,*n-1 13:04:33 and if the cell pointed to is nonzero, move left 13:04:51 right that synchronizes 13:04:55 err sorry replace m,*0,n-1 with m+2,*0,n-1 13:04:59 Anyway, my stupid idea was a programming language that spews brainfuck code and immediately interprets it. 13:05:25 This allows for infinite-length programs 13:05:38 hmm wait this has the same problem an earlier idea did in that you can't tell when you're done the loop 13:06:17 unless, hmm 13:07:06 if you then go right and subtract one, you have 0,0,*m or m+2,0,*n-2 13:07:49 where n-2 might be zero 13:08:04 but you want to end the loop if that or the far left cell is 0 13:08:57 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:09:32 aha there's a way and I'm actually sure this time 13:10:22 start at 0,m,n. Go to *n-1,m+1,0 and branch 13:10:49 if you took the branch, go to *0,m+2,n-2 13:11:09 ok, that's still balanced 13:11:50 add one to each cell 13:11:59