00:06:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 00:12:55 cheater_ your god won't give you pets 00:13:04 you need to cause the 'charm' effect on a monster 00:13:26 or, if you give a treat to cats/dogs/horses they become tame (results may vary) 00:18:38 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 00:20:08 -!- copumpkin has joined. 00:22:04 Patashu, hmm, let me read up on treats 00:22:30 Patashu, btw, all my monk's spells are nearly 100% fail.. how do i fix that? it's not getting better as i level up 00:23:05 are you wearing armour? 00:25:16 stop playing nethack and your spells will be 0% 00:30:34 Ohai 00:35:05 ah yeah, it was all that metal i was wearing 00:35:30 Dear Penthouse... 00:47:29 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 01:03:06 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:30:54 -!- MDude has changed nick to MSleep. 01:32:20 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:33:32 -!- esowiki has joined. 01:34:09 -!- glogbot has joined. 01:34:09 -!- glogbackup has left. 01:38:11 -!- MSleep has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:53:21 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:56:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 02:00:43 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 02:19:14 -!- evincar has joined. 02:19:24 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:19:51 Picked up Gödel, Escher, Bach today. This ought to be interesting. 02:20:24 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:21:45 Meh 02:22:09 Appropriate, considering Sgeo's realisation of the true nature of Lewis Carol [sic]. 02:22:14 Hofstadter's too talky 02:22:24 So far he certainly seems to be. 02:22:33 But I'm a quick reader, so I'm not too troubled by it. 02:22:44 He doesn't exactly display much in the way of attention span, either :D 02:23:07 And I'm leery when people start talking about Zen and Gödel in the same book O.o 02:24:22 NihilistDandy, considering the number of pages that isn't a major issue 02:24:28 Only a computer scientist. :P 02:26:00 I always feel like the odd one out because I'm a computer scientist but not a mystic :D 02:26:33 NihilistDandy, haha 02:27:37 There are those would say you've just not yet fully appreciated the magic of computation. 02:28:12 yeah, whatever 02:28:25 I'm a mathematician, too. There's no magic over here :P 02:28:38 You just don't appreciate the model :D 02:28:51 hah 02:30:08 Maybe I just have modesty enough to admit that computation is at that magical level of "sufficiently advanced". 02:30:33 Mathematics too. 02:31:15 I don't have a model for modesty. Is it published? 02:31:39 -_- 02:31:57 evincar, hm... I'm not sure I agree 02:32:03 evincar, transistors are pretty simple 02:32:15 and so are logic gates made out of transistors (CMOS at least) 02:32:34 and making up simple circuits is easy 02:32:39 Sure, but that's a particular implementation of computation. 02:32:40 and combining those is easy 02:32:45 I'm talking about the topic as a whole. 02:32:53 and thus making a CPU is easy, since it combines 02:32:56 and so on 02:33:20 evincar, however if you try to look at transistors to full CPU in one go, then yes, it is pretty magical 02:33:40 you just have to break it down info the layers of abstraction used 02:33:57 evincar, and hm. Not sure I agree :P 02:35:08 Vorpal: Your computer does more calculations in an hour than all of humanity could do in a year. 02:35:13 I really jumped straight into the deep end. What is the nature of computation, does it have intrinsic meaning, etc. 02:35:19 pikhq, indeed 02:35:19 Yes, it's sufficiently advanced mathematic. 02:35:22 Erm. 02:35:23 Magic. 02:35:43 pikhq, the thing is, when you consider each layer of abstraction alone then it doesn't seem very magic 02:35:51 while for the whole, it is 02:36:51 Vorpal: But of course. Chemicals don't seem very magical (well, alchemists might disagree) but the emergent behaviours of self-organisation and intellect are pretty wondrous, if you ask me. 02:36:52 And the more exposure you get, the more "magic" slides up the scale 02:37:08 It's not about not understanding them. 02:37:17 evincar, indeed 02:37:19 evincar: Only if you ascribe meaning to random/deterministic events 02:37:20 It's about appreciating their self-evident beauty. 02:37:34 blergh 02:37:58 That's random *or* deterministic. I haven't fully decided which view of the universe I find most pleasant 02:38:06 Free will's right out, though, obviously 02:38:23 NihilistDandy: Why not deterministic behaviour emergent from a nondeterministic substrate? It works. 02:38:44 Elaborate 02:39:02 Also, free will may not exist, but as far as humans are concerned, it might as well, since we're not equipped to understand the processes at work. 02:39:26 evincar: It really gets down to what you mean by "free will". 02:39:30 In any case, random input + deterministic rules = deterministic emergent behaviour. 02:39:58 But there may be no rules 02:40:06 NihilistDandy: Physics? 02:40:28 Yeah, that's the trump card. Physics is sort of the essential ruleset of the universe. 02:40:32 Maybe 02:40:40 It appears that way 02:40:51 Alright, go faster than light. Right now. 02:40:57 I don't know how 02:41:07 Do you need to? 02:41:13 Not really 02:41:27 But I also don't really need to go faster than light 02:41:36 If physical law were breakable by mere disagreement, the universe wouldn't be nearly so interesting. :P 02:42:01 Although, as far as we know, the kind of creature that has the capacity to disagree is fairly rare. 02:42:15 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:42:17 But think about who devised the rules. Animals possessed of self-designed logical systems, attributing phenomena to objects in those systems 02:42:25 The reliability is tenuous at best 02:43:04 Or just random brain signals 02:43:12 No way of telling, really 02:43:26 Well, that's the basis of science. You can't really prove anything true. 02:43:32 Right. 02:43:38 But you can demonstrate that it's reliably true under given circumstances. 02:43:53 And that's a pragmatic attitude. 02:44:01 So I don't really care if things don't work the way they seem to. 02:44:04 Pragmatism has no place in #esoteric 02:44:05 Because we'll never find out. 02:44:06 gtfo 02:44:08 :D 02:44:45 By definition, we can only gain an understanding of things that do have a seeming, regardless of what that particular seeming is. 02:45:05 Therefore anything that doesn't seem isn't observable or understandable. 02:45:24 s/Therefore/In other words/. 02:45:34 But you can demonstrate that it's reliably true under given circumstances. <-- or at least we think so 02:45:38 can we trust our brains? 02:45:52 are we just having an illusion of that our brains exist? 02:46:05 Doesn't matter. We rely on them implicitly, so transitive reliances are inevitable. 02:46:21 evincar, can we however rely on them at all? 02:46:34 Again, doesn't matter. Pragmatically we have to. 02:46:35 there is no choice 02:46:37 but can we really 02:46:53 We do, so yes. Should we? Don't know. Don't care. 02:47:01 Pragmatism really has no place in a universe without free will 02:47:37 Not at all. If we can't observe the things that deny us free will, then we have as much free will as we think we do. 02:47:58 Why must something deny you free will? 02:48:02 So in practical terms we do have free will. 02:48:04 You may just not have it 02:48:12 I was trying to find a better word. 02:48:19 The opposite of "give". 02:48:23 "Not give". 02:48:32 If some neurobiologists are correct, the idea of free will may be generated ex post facto 02:52:41 Now we're going to talk about cats 02:52:50 Do you have a cat, evincar 02:52:51 ? 02:52:53 Is there a reliable means of counting characters in a Unicode string? 02:53:13 Code points aren't characters, so even UTF-32 is variable-width wrt characters. :( 02:53:25 eek 02:55:04 But yes, I have two. A Tortoiseshell that's afraid of everything, as Torties are wont to be, and a Maine Coon mix that is deaf and hunts mice and doesn't afraid of anything. 02:55:16 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4579215/cross-platform-iteration-of-unicode-string-counting-graphemes-using-icu 02:55:26 s/mice/anything that moves, even if she is absurdly outclassed/ 02:55:43 Neato 02:56:12 Bluh. I don't really want to use ICU. 02:58:45 evincar, "doesn't afraid"? 02:58:46 what 02:58:58 you mean "isn't"? 02:58:59 Internet speak 02:59:09 You aren't familiar with it? 02:59:12 Vorpal: wtf, you haven't heard this meme before? 02:59:16 olsner, nope 02:59:25 so it means "isn't"? 02:59:27 http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/pretty-cool-guy#.TjYWeXOX0y4 02:59:30 how confusing 02:59:54 "I think Halo is a pretty cool guy. eh kills aleins and doesn't afraid of anything..." 03:00:22 I kind of want to watch Red vs. Blue, now 03:00:38 Vorpal: it's a reference to a specific formulation of a similar sentence at one specific time, thinking about the grammar is meaningless 03:01:14 ah 03:01:43 Speaking of thinking about grammar, I'm thinking about thinking about grammar. 03:01:48 Specifically working on another conlang. 03:02:05 What properties would it have? 03:02:16 I'd think again about thinking about thinking about grammar 03:02:52 You think so? WELL THINK AGAIN 03:03:38 Not sure. I keep running into agglutinative languages lately, so I might do something with that, but I really don't like synthesis. 03:03:59 NihilistDandy: think again about thinking again? THINKCEPTION 03:03:59 Programming has made me drool over analytic languages. 03:04:05 BWAAAAH 03:04:16 olsner: FWAABUMBAHBAHBOOSH 03:04:22 evincar: http://ithkuil.net/ 03:04:34 NihilistDandy: I know about that, actually. 03:04:39 One of my favorites 03:04:47 I don't know what the fuck he was thinking borrowing a consonant inventory from Ubykh. 03:04:50 He's doing a big update, actually 03:04:59 Making the whole thing a bit easier to pronounce 03:05:07 Though the pronunciation was the easy part, really 03:05:11 Of all the languages NOT to borrow a consonant inventory from. God. 03:05:33 I do appreciate the scope of the work, though. 03:06:17 But then again I don't believe in philosophical or logical languages. 03:06:33 * NihilistDandy is not surprised 03:06:36 :D 03:06:53 I'm fine with a posteriori, but a priori is preferable. 03:06:59 I like mostly original works. 03:07:11 Even if it means I'm not going to be able to read an example text right away. 03:08:01 Besides, authors often unwittingly make reference to their native tongues. 03:08:16 I also state obvious facts. :D 03:08:24 i think of languages as navigating on a 2d plane 03:08:30 I can't tell you how many Latin clones I've read 03:08:32 If your word for "book" is "htap", I'm betting you're from India or thereabouts. 03:09:08 Ugh, I know. Esperanto at least has a nice community. 03:09:47 We don't need another Interlingua or Latine Sine Flexiones or [insert variation on "Lingua International" here]. 03:10:01 Though most Esperantinos I know are insufferable 03:11:21 i think words divide conceptual space up in such a way that each concept is concise 03:11:39 itidus20: Square 03:11:51 Not a concise concept 03:12:15 Unless you talk about squareness 03:12:16 Except words don't divide conceptual space at all. Consider synonyms and homographs. 03:12:44 Many words overlap, and most regions of conceptual space aren't covered by individual words. 03:13:00 Some whole regions aren't covered at all, depending on language 03:13:05 oh humm 03:13:14 Don't tell me you're a linguistic relativist, NihilistDandy. 03:13:20 evincar: Never 03:13:40 I blanch at the very idea 03:13:48 (Although Spanish speakers are more likely to give a female voice to a cartoon character that is a table.) 03:13:59 mesa 03:14:13 Sounds like a girl's name to me, mang 03:15:07 So I guess natural language does affect the way we think about the world, but in insignificant ways. 03:15:34 Programming languages, on the other hand, have ridiculously high influence on problem decomposition strategies. 03:15:50 Quite true 03:15:50 There's a thesis someone should do, and probably has. 03:16:30 Programming language all speak the same base language, though, English. A subset thereof, at least. 03:16:57 So the differences are of a higher order, so the underlying language is secondary to the problem solving method 03:17:16 Not all programming languages are English-based. 03:17:21 Well, most of them :P 03:17:23 Not in word order, nor in keywords. 03:17:31 I shouldn't say mosty 03:17:33 *most 03:17:46 Many, and a large portion of the "major" languages 03:17:47 Well, "most" is "more than half", so yeah, that's valid. 03:18:03 evincar: Think of how many esolangs there are floating around 03:18:49 I stand corrected. 03:18:55 :D 03:18:56 Odd place for me to be. 03:19:19 Considering the room we're in. :/ 03:19:22 Dangit, there is a nail in my keyboard 03:19:23 Haha 03:19:24 evincar: perhaps another way to word what i said is that words are imprecise tools which lack the precision of numbers 03:20:20 with numbers you can add a decimal point and seek out greater and greater precision 03:20:44 Programming languages are an attempt to model computation, but because humans have finite mental capacity, each language models it in a uniquely incomplete way (barring derivative languages). They model it fully in theory, but in practice they favor different strategies and so are only efficient for certain classes of computations 03:21:09 to be fair though, numbers have limits especially irrational ones 03:21:12 itidus20: You're using two different meanings of precision 03:21:55 We're dangerously close to a discussion of Gödel numbering. 03:22:27 Gödel numbering :( 03:22:29 I LIVE ON THE EDGE, EVINCAR 03:25:34 i think of programming languages as being designed to be comprehendable by humans 03:25:48 itidus20: What about Malebolge? 03:26:06 i think a lot of crap 03:27:12 Mmm...male bulge. 03:28:12 If I wrote a language called Male Bulge... 03:28:20 You'd get a lot of attention 03:28:22 ...I'd release my Male Bulge and encourage people to wrap their heads around it? 03:28:36 And I'd have to respond with camlToe 03:28:42 (read: incredibly contrived oral sex pun) 03:29:07 And encourage others to implement your Male Bulge in my camlToe 03:30:28 evincar, I think everyone got the joke 03:30:43 Not lately 03:30:48 T_T 03:30:52 I'm not trying to be funny, I'm trying to be pathetic. 03:31:05 Pointing out my own bad jokes is my strategy. 03:31:21 Like Tara? 03:32:51 You'll have to be more specific 03:32:59 ¯\(°_o)/¯ 03:33:28 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FanFic/MyImmortal?from=Main.MyImmortal 03:33:38 Oh, that piece of garbage. 03:33:51 Oh, lol 03:34:08 HER NAME ISN'T MARY SUE. EBONY'S NAME IS ENOBY. 03:34:08 I had a friend of mine read that, and he got a headache and had to stop by the end of chapter 3 03:34:36 I forget how far I made it...less than halfway. 03:34:43 I read it all 03:34:44 I had to 03:34:51 "I was walking outside Hogwarts. It was snowy and rainy at the same time." 03:34:51 I was going to. I really was. 03:35:25 "Im good at too many things! WHY CAN'T I JUST BE NORMAL? IT'S A FUCKING CURSE!" 03:35:30 I feel for you Enoby 03:35:44 I identified with the main character 03:35:54 I also have long ebony black hair with purple streaks and red tips that reaches my mid-back and icy blue eyes like limpid tears 03:36:04 Totes me~ 03:36:10 Emphasis mine 03:36:28 Damn. I bet all the other girls be jelly. 03:36:48 So jelly, bro 03:36:59 Das da kine. 03:37:28 lol 03:39:51 Their jst jelly abot how totly goffik i am 03:43:58 "But da ballet could not kill u since u were form anodder time." 03:45:38 Going back to my conlang, I was thinking of setting up a weird vowel system with unvoiced and ingressive vowels. 03:46:30 So say [a i u] times those four possible qualities. 03:46:40 lol 03:46:53 Also ingressive fricative consonants. 03:46:59 Just for consistency. 03:47:04 Of course 03:47:18 There would have to be air harmony, of course, or else words would be imbalanced. 03:47:59 Euphony seems difficult. Japanese may have some pointers 03:48:06 I admit I'm only doing this so I can come up with a cool writing system for it. :P 03:48:37 lol 03:48:45 You and every other conlanger evar 03:50:10 Come on, phonetics is easy. Typography is the fun part. 03:50:32 Also grammar and morphology. Vocabulary not so much. 03:50:56 Vocabulary is the worst part 03:51:43 Unless you make your grammar really really expressive 03:53:16 Eh, in the realm of discourse, unlike in programming, you can't really reduce the language to a set of fundamental roots. 03:53:33 design a conlang with grammar so expressive that you only need one word. 03:53:44 That's the problem that I have with philosophical languages... 03:54:01 lament: Define "word". 03:54:38 root morpheme 03:54:48 Because you could easily have a language with one lexeme. 03:54:53 evincar: Right, but one person coming up with the thousands of lexemes needed to make a non-philosophical language usable... 03:54:56 Ouch 03:55:12 Ouch indeed. 03:55:56 That's why most of my conlangs end during the honeymoon period while I'm still fussing over grammar and typography 03:56:13 You could argue that a philosophical language with a perfect taxonomy, which presumably would be highly synthetic, would have only one (null) lexeme, and no roots. 03:56:14 Then I make up a thousand words and want to die 03:56:52 I could argue that, but it needs more syntactic sugar :D 03:56:52 Start with aardvark and go. 03:57:20 No thanks. I'm sweet enough. 03:58:46 The joke, you see, is that I said "sugar", and sugar is sweet 03:59:13 evincar: don't argue it, design it 03:59:41 It's not possible. 03:59:46 Why not? 03:59:53 then die trying 03:59:58 I'm not capable of decomposing the universe into a perfect taxonomy. 04:00:59 Math alone leaves us ruined 04:01:08 Damnable infinity 04:10:22 Sigh. It's nice to have someone to miss, but not nice to have to miss that someone. 04:11:00 Get a better scope 04:13:23 You mean get a better perspective, or physically move? 04:13:44 No, I mean buy a new scope 04:13:53 As in rifle 04:15:40 Well, that would offer me a better perspective on certain matters, to be sure. 04:18:08 The heart is located conveniently in CBM 04:18:41 Je me fabrique un cœur de pierre, pour devenir un grand garçon. 04:19:01 I'm not being emo, that's just from a song I like. :P 04:19:47 ha 04:20:37 It's a neat lyric, I gues 04:20:39 *guess 04:21:27 "Tais toi mon coeur", by Dionysos. Good music video as well. 04:21:39 I dunno how well you grok French. 04:21:43 I made a joke about Forth to no avail. In fairness, it was just a lisp joke, so... 04:22:05 evincar: Well enough. Not fluently, but proficiently. 04:22:14 "May the Forth be with you" is a Lisp joke. ;) 04:22:23 Exactly of that sort 04:22:32 Figured. 04:23:10 <[redacted]> [redacted], that's nice to know... once i made one of those questions in the FORTH group and i was beaten up by some guys, and then they started fighting each other! lol 04:23:25 [redacted]: Well, we're not going to Forth you to do anything you don't want to 04:23:59 I wonder if there are any Lisp-agnostic Forth jokes 04:25:09 Go Forth and prosper. 04:25:45 I wrote the program in three different languages, but the Forth one was the best. 04:26:10 (More historically accurate from what I remember.) 04:26:22 Ha 04:27:23 Those don't deserve a whole "Ha". 04:27:32 Maybe a third of a "ha" each. 04:28:12 I 04:28:50 That's only funny with the right font 05:00:44 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: UP UP AND AWAY ME). 05:01:06 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:27:08 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:38:15 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:13:17 I think I'm going to try Quassel 06:14:49 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Switching IRC clients). 06:20:30 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:21:47 I vaguely recall trying Quassel a year or so ago, and it was very crashy. 06:21:55 But maybe it was just bad luck. 06:26:20 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.). 06:26:50 What, not so hot after all? 06:27:45 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:29:13 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 06:29:30 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit). 06:37:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:37:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:38:50 Ok, I think I can deal with this 06:42:38 Sounds like the bestest client, if it barely can be "dealt with". 06:43:00 fizzie: what I'm having to "deal with" is mostly the different look 06:46:53 Also it's funny how Quassel's website is all "this uniqe feature [of doing the client/server model in a graphical app]" when as far as I can tell Smuxi did it a lot earlier. 06:47:10 In other news, it might have been Smuxi which I tried and found sucky, instead. 06:49:25 -!- Taneb has joined. 06:49:58 Well, my Facebook got hacked. 06:50:35 Isn't everyone's Facebook the same Facebook? 06:50:42 Yes 06:50:49 Facebook got hacked 06:50:51 So, wait... is it just like using irssi as a bouncer and connecting with whatever you want, except it's all in the one program? I don't get it 06:50:52 And I was the target 06:51:33 NihilistDandy: It's pretty close to a bouncer except you can only connect to it with the program's own frontend, not any IRC client whatsoever. 06:51:34 NihilistDandy: some convenience over that. Quassel is supposed to have some thing where scrolling automatically retrieves logs going all the way back 06:51:49 But I'm not even using it that way 06:52:03 Sgeo: That sounds like *one* convenience :D 06:52:12 fizzie: That's a bit silly 06:52:41 There's a bit of kludginess involved in having multiple clients connected to the same bouncer, which one hopes they'd have eliminated, but those are all rather minor stuff. 06:52:52 Also, I like that it remembers which channels I'm in for when I close it 06:53:11 Strange, I _hate_ that sort of thing on desktop environments and web browsers 06:53:17 But I think I'll like it here 06:59:12 Testing, testing, 1 2 3 06:59:49 I like a manually configurable list-of-automatically-on-channels more than auto-remembering, but that's of course a matter of taste. 07:01:31 I really should try to read all the letters in a word and all the words in a sentence 07:01:50 Misread "Obama announces US deficit deal" as "Obama announced dead" 07:02:15 WOW 07:02:18 Hell of a misread 07:03:30 Also, I've had an idea for an esoteric programming language 07:03:44 None so far are based on L-systems 07:04:08 I'm going to make a language called Luigi 07:13:52 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:14:13 -!- pitufoide has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:14:30 -!- pitufoide has joined. 07:18:44 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:47:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 08:44:33 -!- aloril has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 09:00:16 -!- aloril has joined. 09:07:59 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 09:12:51 Taneb, would /// qualify? 09:16:33 I don't think it's quite the same thing, since it doesn't apply more than one replacement rule at a time. Admittedly it does replace all occurrences, unlike say Thue. (But even that is not done in an L-system-ish fashion.) 09:17:00 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:19:19 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 09:20:34 -!- Deewiant has joined. 09:21:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:23:36 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:08:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game). 10:13:56 -!- Taneb has joined. 10:14:05 Lymee: no 10:33:21 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 10:33:42 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:54:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:05:26 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 11:07:07 guys I have a great idea for PHPJAVA 11:07:33 the scoping operator is & since it's most like \ and . put together 11:20:53 -!- Patashu has joined. 11:26:05 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 11:33:25 good news: my program works 11:33:30 bad news: it's slow as hell 11:33:36 what does your program do? 11:33:51 although it's probably just half that it involves iterating over powersets 11:34:03 sour about that O(2^n) 11:34:07 indeed 11:34:18 you are familiar with the game of life, yes? 11:34:21 yup 11:34:24 whatcha looking for? 11:35:03 k. Define an eden as a pattern such that there exists no pattern such that applying the generation function gives that pattern 11:35:32 Define an island as a pattern such that there exists no eden such that you can reach the island from that eden in a finite number of applications of the generation function 11:35:49 i.e. an island has no eden predecessor 11:35:58 find any? 11:36:08 How many islands are there on a w by h torus? 11:36:28 Now, since we're on a torus, we can eliminate symmetries from the calculation 11:36:36 but there are a lot of symmetries 11:36:59 and my poor inefficient program is trying to calculate them rather naively 11:37:23 by iterating over each possible pattern and its symmetries 11:37:31 this is the most elegant approach, but is clearly utterly ridiculous 11:37:52 as, for instance, the singleton pattern has w*h /translational/ symmetrical patterns alone 11:38:33 really what I should be doing is starting from one pattern, add all its symmetries to a set 11:38:40 pick the next pattern 11:38:44 add it to the set of results 11:38:54 and add it and its symmetries to the set of visited patterns 11:39:15 and repeat until there are no more unvisited patterns 11:39:21 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:39:31 it'd still be O(2^n) unfortunately 11:39:57 yeah, but I'd be able to reasonably calculate, say, 4x4 11:40:26 for 4x4 it'd be a speedup of something like 128 times? 11:40:37 no more than that 11:40:55 there are more symmetries 11:41:10 all the translationals * flip horizontal * flip vertical...flip diagonal too? 11:41:42 Grah. In the channel list, Quassel uses for regular incoming chat the color that XChat used for pings 11:41:47 flip diagonal, plus, in the case of a square, rotation 11:41:53 by either 90 or 270 degrees 11:41:56 ah good point 11:42:04 PLUS the translations of each flip and rotation 11:42:10 yeah, hence * and not + 11:42:43 it becomes w * h * (6 if square, 4 otherwise) 11:42:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:43:18 now do that redundancy 2^wh times 11:43:20 and you're in trouble 11:44:52 also I need to deal with the fact that such large numbers are simply damn difficult to manage 11:45:13 is this an open problem or some personal curiousity thing 11:45:31