< 1312157206 708304 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1312157575 345563 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater_ your god won't give you pets < 1312157584 935926 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to cause the 'charm' effect on a monster < 1312157606 796854 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, if you give a treat to cats/dogs/horses they become tame (results may vary) < 1312157918 568759 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1312158008 840526 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1312158124 950276 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179112092.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu, hmm, let me read up on treats < 1312158150 271289 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179112092.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu, btw, all my monk's spells are nearly 100% fail.. how do i fix that? it's not getting better as i level up < 1312158185 299872 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you wearing armour? < 1312158316 756900 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop playing nethack and your spells will be 0% < 1312158634 575771 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohai < 1312158905 980759 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179112092.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yeah, it was all that metal i was wearing < 1312158930 531206 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear Penthouse... < 1312159649 417687 :TeruFSX!~quassel@pool-116-152.res.carleton.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1312160586 111951 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1312162254 294074 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net NICK :MSleep < 1312162340 824877 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1312162412 517712 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312162449 556543 :glogbot!Gregor@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1312162449 578457 :glogbackup!~glogbacku@64.31.59.246 PART :#esoteric < 1312162691 181386 :MSleep!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1312163601 51962 :Behold!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1312163777 909996 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1312164043 442846 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1312165154 793939 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312165164 801230 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-222-167.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312165191 78731 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Picked up Gödel, Escher, Bach today. This ought to be interesting. < 1312165224 918176 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-230-75.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1312165305 320750 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh < 1312165329 319813 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Appropriate, considering Sgeo's realisation of the true nature of Lewis Carol [sic]. < 1312165334 52031 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hofstadter's too talky < 1312165344 821202 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So far he certainly seems to be. < 1312165353 421798 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm a quick reader, so I'm not too troubled by it. < 1312165364 522308 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He doesn't exactly display much in the way of attention span, either :D < 1312165387 119192 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm leery when people start talking about Zen and Gödel in the same book O.o < 1312165462 209041 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy, considering the number of pages that isn't a major issue < 1312165468 264591 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only a computer scientist. :P < 1312165560 588178 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always feel like the odd one out because I'm a computer scientist but not a mystic :D < 1312165593 163395 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy, haha < 1312165657 752622 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are those would say you've just not yet fully appreciated the magic of computation. < 1312165692 124153 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, whatever < 1312165705 993568 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a mathematician, too. There's no magic over here :P < 1312165718 949493 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just don't appreciate the model :D < 1312165731 402021 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1312165808 754456 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I just have modesty enough to admit that computation is at that magical level of "sufficiently advanced". < 1312165833 796480 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematics too. < 1312165875 611392 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a model for modesty. Is it published? < 1312165899 907702 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1312165917 453203 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, hm... I'm not sure I agree < 1312165923 544533 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, transistors are pretty simple < 1312165935 647653 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so are logic gates made out of transistors (CMOS at least) < 1312165954 408575 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and making up simple circuits is easy < 1312165959 888414 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but that's a particular implementation of computation. < 1312165960 205471 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and combining those is easy < 1312165965 753109 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about the topic as a whole. < 1312165973 8355 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus making a CPU is easy, since it combines < 1312165976 147558 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1312166000 580454 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, however if you try to look at transistors to full CPU in one go, then yes, it is pretty magical < 1312166020 419224 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just have to break it down info the layers of abstraction used < 1312166037 486655 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, and hm. Not sure I agree :P < 1312166108 857719 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-222-167.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Your computer does more calculations in an hour than all of humanity could do in a year. < 1312166113 675200 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really jumped straight into the deep end. What is the nature of computation, does it have intrinsic meaning, etc. < 1312166119 5507 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, indeed < 1312166119 219826 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-222-167.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's sufficiently advanced mathematic. < 1312166122 300894 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-222-167.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1312166123 159478 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-222-167.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magic. < 1312166143 226078 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the thing is, when you consider each layer of abstraction alone then it doesn't seem very magic < 1312166151 927134 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :while for the whole, it is < 1312166211 322585 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: But of course. Chemicals don't seem very magical (well, alchemists might disagree) but the emergent behaviours of self-organisation and intellect are pretty wondrous, if you ask me. < 1312166212 30105 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the more exposure you get, the more "magic" slides up the scale < 1312166228 798039 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not about not understanding them. < 1312166237 342290 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, indeed < 1312166239 342838 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Only if you ascribe meaning to random/deterministic events < 1312166240 182474 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's about appreciating their self-evident beauty. < 1312166254 506037 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :blergh < 1312166278 37310 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's random *or* deterministic. I haven't fully decided which view of the universe I find most pleasant < 1312166286 579974 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Free will's right out, though, obviously < 1312166303 528900 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: Why not deterministic behaviour emergent from a nondeterministic substrate? It works. < 1312166324 68945 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elaborate < 1312166342 811981 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, free will may not exist, but as far as humans are concerned, it might as well, since we're not equipped to understand the processes at work. < 1312166366 685090 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-222-167.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: It really gets down to what you mean by "free will". < 1312166370 124589 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case, random input + deterministic rules = deterministic emergent behaviour. < 1312166398 53234 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there may be no rules < 1312166406 383648 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-222-167.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: Physics? < 1312166428 168498 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's the trump card. Physics is sort of the essential ruleset of the universe. < 1312166432 145515 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe < 1312166440 256029 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It appears that way < 1312166451 305665 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright, go faster than light. Right now. < 1312166457 894181 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how < 1312166467 191557 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you need to? < 1312166473 62772 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really < 1312166487 873825 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I also don't really need to go faster than light < 1312166496 34838 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If physical law were breakable by mere disagreement, the universe wouldn't be nearly so interesting. :P < 1312166521 313785 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although, as far as we know, the kind of creature that has the capacity to disagree is fairly rare. < 1312166535 950815 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1312166537 906800 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But think about who devised the rules. Animals possessed of self-designed logical systems, attributing phenomena to objects in those systems < 1312166545 84632 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reliability is tenuous at best < 1312166584 656499 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just random brain signals < 1312166592 273040 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No way of telling, really < 1312166606 560068 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's the basis of science. You can't really prove anything true. < 1312166612 794292 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1312166618 92282 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can demonstrate that it's reliably true under given circumstances. < 1312166633 60876 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's a pragmatic attitude. < 1312166641 279962 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I don't really care if things don't work the way they seem to. < 1312166644 745835 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pragmatism has no place in #esoteric < 1312166645 731544 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because we'll never find out. < 1312166646 521518 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gtfo < 1312166648 784422 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1312166685 599990 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :By definition, we can only gain an understanding of things that do have a seeming, regardless of what that particular seeming is. < 1312166705 356984 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore anything that doesn't seem isn't observable or understandable. < 1312166724 176251 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Therefore/In other words/. < 1312166734 470343 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : But you can demonstrate that it's reliably true under given circumstances. <-- or at least we think so < 1312166738 474546 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :can we trust our brains? < 1312166752 937419 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :are we just having an illusion of that our brains exist? < 1312166765 513587 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't matter. We rely on them implicitly, so transitive reliances are inevitable. < 1312166781 419651 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, can we however rely on them at all? < 1312166794 878634 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again, doesn't matter. Pragmatically we have to. < 1312166795 35252 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no choice < 1312166797 820851 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :but can we really < 1312166813 478071 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We do, so yes. Should we? Don't know. Don't care. < 1312166821 889281 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pragmatism really has no place in a universe without free will < 1312166857 470384 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not at all. If we can't observe the things that deny us free will, then we have as much free will as we think we do. < 1312166878 505751 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why must something deny you free will? < 1312166882 233526 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in practical terms we do have free will. < 1312166884 207353 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may just not have it < 1312166892 966484 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to find a better word. < 1312166899 611952 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The opposite of "give". < 1312166903 843900 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Not give". < 1312166912 380763 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If some neurobiologists are correct, the idea of free will may be generated ex post facto < 1312167161 496229 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now we're going to talk about cats < 1312167170 491017 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have a cat, evincar < 1312167171 359789 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1312167173 667927 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a reliable means of counting characters in a Unicode string? < 1312167193 331361 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Code points aren't characters, so even UTF-32 is variable-width wrt characters. :( < 1312167205 17931 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :eek < 1312167304 122652 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, I have two. A Tortoiseshell that's afraid of everything, as Torties are wont to be, and a Maine Coon mix that is deaf and hunts mice and doesn't afraid of anything. < 1312167316 840136 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4579215/cross-platform-iteration-of-unicode-string-counting-graphemes-using-icu < 1312167326 699701 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/mice/anything that moves, even if she is absurdly outclassed/ < 1312167343 827006 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neato < 1312167372 106931 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bluh. I don't really want to use ICU. < 1312167525 786964 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, "doesn't afraid"? < 1312167526 480107 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1312167538 319279 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean "isn't"? < 1312167539 526484 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Internet speak < 1312167549 798309 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You aren't familiar with it? < 1312167552 340912 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: wtf, you haven't heard this meme before? < 1312167556 181263 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, nope < 1312167565 750787 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it means "isn't"? < 1312167567 844004 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/pretty-cool-guy#.TjYWeXOX0y4 < 1312167570 972091 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :how confusing < 1312167594 1984 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I think Halo is a pretty cool guy. eh kills aleins and doesn't afraid of anything..." < 1312167622 93502 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kind of want to watch Red vs. Blue, now < 1312167638 645874 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's a reference to a specific formulation of a similar sentence at one specific time, thinking about the grammar is meaningless < 1312167674 154648 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1312167703 744952 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of thinking about grammar, I'm thinking about thinking about grammar. < 1312167708 903652 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically working on another conlang. < 1312167725 526010 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What properties would it have? < 1312167736 391560 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd think again about thinking about thinking about grammar < 1312167772 825754 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You think so? WELL THINK AGAIN < 1312167818 606642 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure. I keep running into agglutinative languages lately, so I might do something with that, but I really don't like synthesis. < 1312167839 473385 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: think again about thinking again? THINKCEPTION < 1312167839 677593 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programming has made me drool over analytic languages. < 1312167845 536022 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :BWAAAAH < 1312167856 455263 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: FWAABUMBAHBAHBOOSH < 1312167862 500948 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: http://ithkuil.net/ < 1312167874 103097 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: I know about that, actually. < 1312167879 356404 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of my favorites < 1312167887 210274 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what the fuck he was thinking borrowing a consonant inventory from Ubykh. < 1312167890 896854 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's doing a big update, actually < 1312167899 260542 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making the whole thing a bit easier to pronounce < 1312167907 238529 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the pronunciation was the easy part, really < 1312167911 194484 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of all the languages NOT to borrow a consonant inventory from. God. < 1312167933 623594 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do appreciate the scope of the work, though. < 1312167977 732498 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then again I don't believe in philosophical or logical languages. < 1312167993 54074 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is not surprised
< 1312167996 929686 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1312168013 534233 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm fine with a posteriori, but a priori is preferable. < 1312168019 548446 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like mostly original works. < 1312168031 912678 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if it means I'm not going to be able to read an example text right away. < 1312168081 445940 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, authors often unwittingly make reference to their native tongues. < 1312168096 449819 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also state obvious facts. :D < 1312168104 647655 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think of languages as navigating on a 2d plane < 1312168110 137989 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't tell you how many Latin clones I've read < 1312168112 68463 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your word for "book" is "htap", I'm betting you're from India or thereabouts. < 1312168148 74066 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, I know. Esperanto at least has a nice community. < 1312168187 385485 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We don't need another Interlingua or Latine Sine Flexiones or [insert variation on "Lingua International" here]. < 1312168201 148315 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though most Esperantinos I know are insufferable < 1312168281 724900 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think words divide conceptual space up in such a way that each concept is concise < 1312168299 847557 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: Square < 1312168311 415680 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a concise concept < 1312168335 428800 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you talk about squareness < 1312168336 217571 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except words don't divide conceptual space at all. Consider synonyms and homographs. < 1312168364 489567 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many words overlap, and most regions of conceptual space aren't covered by individual words. < 1312168380 317963 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some whole regions aren't covered at all, depending on language < 1312168385 628579 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh humm < 1312168394 774201 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't tell me you're a linguistic relativist, NihilistDandy. < 1312168400 201872 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Never < 1312168420 459554 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I blanch at the very idea < 1312168428 358706 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although Spanish speakers are more likely to give a female voice to a cartoon character that is a table.) < 1312168439 397651 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mesa < 1312168453 432192 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like a girl's name to me, mang < 1312168507 359675 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I guess natural language does affect the way we think about the world, but in insignificant ways. < 1312168534 610804 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programming languages, on the other hand, have ridiculously high influence on problem decomposition strategies. < 1312168550 157561 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite true < 1312168550 795257 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a thesis someone should do, and probably has. < 1312168590 374803 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programming language all speak the same base language, though, English. A subset thereof, at least. < 1312168617 662900 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the differences are of a higher order, so the underlying language is secondary to the problem solving method < 1312168636 927011 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not all programming languages are English-based. < 1312168641 726207 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, most of them :P < 1312168643 196077 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in word order, nor in keywords. < 1312168651 306421 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I shouldn't say mosty < 1312168653 37247 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*most < 1312168666 929680 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many, and a large portion of the "major" languages < 1312168667 528102 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "most" is "more than half", so yeah, that's valid. < 1312168683 518321 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Think of how many esolangs there are floating around < 1312168729 984435 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I stand corrected. < 1312168735 772499 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1312168736 993758 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Odd place for me to be. < 1312168759 269562 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Considering the room we're in. :/ < 1312168762 672294 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dangit, there is a nail in my keyboard < 1312168763 986390 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haha < 1312168764 198578 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: perhaps another way to word what i said is that words are imprecise tools which lack the precision of numbers < 1312168820 58339 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :with numbers you can add a decimal point and seek out greater and greater precision < 1312168844 63822 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programming languages are an attempt to model computation, but because humans have finite mental capacity, each language models it in a uniquely incomplete way (barring derivative languages). They model it fully in theory, but in practice they favor different strategies and so are only efficient for certain classes of computations < 1312168869 224782 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be fair though, numbers have limits especially irrational ones < 1312168872 878801 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: You're using two different meanings of precision < 1312168915 393298 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're dangerously close to a discussion of Gödel numbering. < 1312168947 261679 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gödel numbering :( < 1312168949 880309 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I LIVE ON THE EDGE, EVINCAR < 1312169134 576355 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think of programming languages as being designed to be comprehendable by humans < 1312169148 902168 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: What about Malebolge? < 1312169166 374430 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think a lot of crap < 1312169232 437637 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm...male bulge. < 1312169292 621819 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I wrote a language called Male Bulge... < 1312169300 414271 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd get a lot of attention < 1312169302 694267 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I'd release my Male Bulge and encourage people to wrap their heads around it? < 1312169316 456466 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'd have to respond with camlToe < 1312169322 298493 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(read: incredibly contrived oral sex pun) < 1312169347 650571 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And encourage others to implement your Male Bulge in my camlToe < 1312169428 823668 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar, I think everyone got the joke < 1312169443 506172 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not lately < 1312169448 715773 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :T_T < 1312169452 682941 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not trying to be funny, I'm trying to be pathetic. < 1312169465 658523 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pointing out my own bad jokes is my strategy. < 1312169481 566745 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like Tara? < 1312169571 553572 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll have to be more specific < 1312169579 450399 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1312169608 100223 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FanFic/MyImmortal?from=Main.MyImmortal < 1312169618 241485 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that piece of garbage. < 1312169631 708779 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, lol < 1312169648 164265 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :HER NAME ISN'T MARY SUE. EBONY'S NAME IS ENOBY. < 1312169648 896470 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a friend of mine read that, and he got a headache and had to stop by the end of chapter 3 < 1312169676 757911 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget how far I made it...less than halfway. < 1312169683 367578 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read it all < 1312169684 807472 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to < 1312169691 648257 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I was walking outside Hogwarts. It was snowy and rainy at the same time." < 1312169691 819916 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to. I really was. < 1312169725 535860 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Im good at too many things! WHY CAN'T I JUST BE NORMAL? IT'S A FUCKING CURSE!" < 1312169730 290644 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel for you Enoby < 1312169744 494651 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I identified with the main character < 1312169754 587326 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also have long ebony black hair with purple streaks and red tips that reaches my mid-back and icy blue eyes like limpid tears < 1312169764 433564 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Totes me~ < 1312169770 235182 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emphasis mine < 1312169788 685170 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn. I bet all the other girls be jelly. < 1312169808 88441 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So jelly, bro < 1312169819 862657 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Das da kine. < 1312169848 996771 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1312169991 123911 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Their jst jelly abot how totly goffik i am < 1312170238 986805 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"But da ballet could not kill u since u were form anodder time." < 1312170338 822145 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Going back to my conlang, I was thinking of setting up a weird vowel system with unvoiced and ingressive vowels. < 1312170390 72674 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So say [a i u] times those four possible qualities. < 1312170400 147247 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1312170413 919088 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also ingressive fricative consonants. < 1312170419 769043 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just for consistency. < 1312170424 740380 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course < 1312170438 654067 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There would have to be air harmony, of course, or else words would be imbalanced. < 1312170479 152603 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Euphony seems difficult. Japanese may have some pointers < 1312170486 26478 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I admit I'm only doing this so I can come up with a cool writing system for it. :P < 1312170517 679272 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1312170525 308091 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You and every other conlanger evar < 1312170610 23501 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Come on, phonetics is easy. Typography is the fun part. < 1312170632 530327 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also grammar and morphology. Vocabulary not so much. < 1312170656 318030 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vocabulary is the worst part < 1312170703 751994 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you make your grammar really really expressive < 1312170796 94643 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, in the realm of discourse, unlike in programming, you can't really reduce the language to a set of fundamental roots. < 1312170813 1746 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :design a conlang with grammar so expressive that you only need one word. < 1312170824 13801 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the problem that I have with philosophical languages... < 1312170841 967761 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Define "word". < 1312170878 556490 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :root morpheme < 1312170888 893273 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you could easily have a language with one lexeme. < 1312170893 22024 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Right, but one person coming up with the thousands of lexemes needed to make a non-philosophical language usable... < 1312170896 234254 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ouch < 1312170912 204378 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ouch indeed. < 1312170956 922254 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why most of my conlangs end during the honeymoon period while I'm still fussing over grammar and typography < 1312170973 658497 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could argue that a philosophical language with a perfect taxonomy, which presumably would be highly synthetic, would have only one (null) lexeme, and no roots. < 1312170974 564743 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I make up a thousand words and want to die < 1312171012 511848 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could argue that, but it needs more syntactic sugar :D < 1312171012 753672 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Start with aardvark and go. < 1312171040 460891 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No thanks. I'm sweet enough. < 1312171126 468236 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The joke, you see, is that I said "sugar", and sugar is sweet < 1312171153 206629 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: don't argue it, design it < 1312171181 742122 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not possible. < 1312171186 814644 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not? < 1312171193 135393 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :then die trying < 1312171198 856480 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not capable of decomposing the universe into a perfect taxonomy. < 1312171259 314764 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Math alone leaves us ruined < 1312171268 400727 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damnable infinity < 1312171822 783141 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigh. It's nice to have someone to miss, but not nice to have to miss that someone. < 1312171860 818874 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get a better scope < 1312172003 219279 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean get a better perspective, or physically move? < 1312172024 211177 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I mean buy a new scope < 1312172033 754848 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in rifle < 1312172140 491347 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that would offer me a better perspective on certain matters, to be sure. < 1312172288 713913 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The heart is located conveniently in CBM < 1312172321 64708 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Je me fabrique un cœur de pierre, pour devenir un grand garçon. < 1312172341 372429 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not being emo, that's just from a song I like. :P < 1312172387 277535 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1312172437 580034 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a neat lyric, I gues < 1312172439 497230 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*guess < 1312172487 119677 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Tais toi mon coeur", by Dionysos. Good music video as well. < 1312172499 582540 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno how well you grok French. < 1312172503 435588 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made a joke about Forth to no avail. In fairness, it was just a lisp joke, so... < 1312172525 135265 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Well enough. Not fluently, but proficiently. < 1312172534 850562 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"May the Forth be with you" is a Lisp joke. ;) < 1312172543 75520 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly of that sort < 1312172552 968761 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Figured. < 1312172590 481331 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :<[redacted]> [redacted], that's nice to know... once i made one of those questions in the FORTH group and i was beaten up by some guys, and then they started fighting each other! lol < 1312172605 213599 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : [redacted]: Well, we're not going to Forth you to do anything you don't want to < 1312172639 552168 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there are any Lisp-agnostic Forth jokes < 1312172709 921971 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go Forth and prosper. < 1312172745 868274 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote the program in three different languages, but the Forth one was the best. < 1312172770 645374 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(More historically accurate from what I remember.) < 1312172782 111027 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha < 1312172843 885574 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those don't deserve a whole "Ha". < 1312172852 428993 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe a third of a "ha" each. < 1312172892 450713 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I < 1312172930 847871 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's only funny with the right font < 1312174844 471251 :evincar!~jon@d-rev-bng-70-20-47-126.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net QUIT :Quit: UP UP AND AWAY ME < 1312174866 275854 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1312176428 125041 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1312177095 700529 :TeruFSX!~quassel@pool-116-152.res.carleton.edu QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1312179197 471100 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm going to try Quassel < 1312179289 967035 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Quit: Switching IRC clients < 1312179630 393273 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312179707 462552 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I vaguely recall trying Quassel a year or so ago, and it was very crashy. < 1312179715 476770 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe it was just bad luck. < 1312179980 331567 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere. < 1312180010 973039 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, not so hot after all? < 1312180065 43288 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312180153 420333 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312180170 985980 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1312180633 55355 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1312180666 395067 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312180730 881408 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, I think I can deal with this < 1312180958 936579 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like the bestest client, if it barely can be "dealt with". < 1312180980 685744 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what I'm having to "deal with" is mostly the different look < 1312181213 624304 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it's funny how Quassel's website is all "this uniqe feature [of doing the client/server model in a graphical app]" when as far as I can tell Smuxi did it a lot earlier. < 1312181230 397366 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other news, it might have been Smuxi which I tried and found sucky, instead. < 1312181365 754912 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312181398 933041 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, my Facebook got hacked. < 1312181435 481554 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't everyone's Facebook the same Facebook? < 1312181442 569898 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1312181449 714749 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Facebook got hacked < 1312181451 205209 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, wait... is it just like using irssi as a bouncer and connecting with whatever you want, except it's all in the one program? I don't get it < 1312181452 871260 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I was the target < 1312181493 515108 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: It's pretty close to a bouncer except you can only connect to it with the program's own frontend, not any IRC client whatsoever. < 1312181494 210687 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: some convenience over that. Quassel is supposed to have some thing where scrolling automatically retrieves logs going all the way back < 1312181509 554499 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm not even using it that way < 1312181523 863750 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That sounds like *one* convenience :D < 1312181532 943135 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That's a bit silly < 1312181561 74106 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a bit of kludginess involved in having multiple clients connected to the same bouncer, which one hopes they'd have eliminated, but those are all rather minor stuff. < 1312181572 383399 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I like that it remembers which channels I'm in for when I close it < 1312181591 536357 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strange, I _hate_ that sort of thing on desktop environments and web browsers < 1312181597 507752 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think I'll like it here < 1312181952 975433 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Testing, testing, 1 2 3 < 1312181989 123964 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like a manually configurable list-of-automatically-on-channels more than auto-remembering, but that's of course a matter of taste. < 1312182091 623239 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really should try to read all the letters in a word and all the words in a sentence < 1312182110 501943 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Misread "Obama announces US deficit deal" as "Obama announced dead" < 1312182135 229488 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :WOW < 1312182138 233602 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hell of a misread < 1312182210 198902 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I've had an idea for an esoteric programming language < 1312182224 280460 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :None so far are based on L-systems < 1312182248 383593 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to make a language called Luigi < 1312182832 511046 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1312182853 519462 :pitufoide!~vandresv@c-66-229-123-50.hsd1.fl.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312182870 886845 :pitufoide!~vandresv@c-66-229-123-50.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312183124 227764 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1312184851 496186 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1312188273 933194 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1312189216 413853 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1312189679 387046 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1312189971 194109 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, would /// qualify? < 1312190193 331386 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's quite the same thing, since it doesn't apply more than one replacement rule at a time. Admittedly it does replace all occurrences, unlike say Thue. (But even that is not done in an L-system-ish fashion.) < 1312190220 880198 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1312190359 215372 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1312190434 464350 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1312190479 860622 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1312190616 553575 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1312193329 369113 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey QUIT :Quit: The Other Game < 1312193636 975279 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312193645 591961 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lymee: no < 1312194801 718788 :Sgeo_!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312194822 38877 :Sgeo_!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1312196070 691896 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1312196726 8224 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1312196827 137545 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys I have a great idea for PHPJAVA < 1312196853 676744 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the scoping operator is & since it's most like \ and . put together < 1312197653 784819 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1312197965 394230 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1312198405 576841 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :good news: my program works < 1312198410 574003 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad news: it's slow as hell < 1312198416 461188 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does your program do? < 1312198431 953116 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's probably just half that it involves iterating over powersets < 1312198443 675222 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :sour about that O(2^n) < 1312198447 265087 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1312198458 52182 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are familiar with the game of life, yes? < 1312198461 992254 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup < 1312198464 727721 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatcha looking for? < 1312198503 76141 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :k. Define an eden as a pattern such that there exists no pattern such that applying the generation function gives that pattern < 1312198532 576066 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define an island as a pattern such that there exists no eden such that you can reach the island from that eden in a finite number of applications of the generation function < 1312198549 605826 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. an island has no eden predecessor < 1312198558 152176 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :find any? < 1312198568 702678 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many islands are there on a w by h torus? < 1312198588 295989 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, since we're on a torus, we can eliminate symmetries from the calculation < 1312198596 470427 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are a lot of symmetries < 1312198619 644209 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my poor inefficient program is trying to calculate them rather naively < 1312198643 295160 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :by iterating over each possible pattern and its symmetries < 1312198651 881111 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the most elegant approach, but is clearly utterly ridiculous < 1312198672 571672 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :as, for instance, the singleton pattern has w*h /translational/ symmetrical patterns alone < 1312198713 502743 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :really what I should be doing is starting from one pattern, add all its symmetries to a set < 1312198720 893681 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pick the next pattern < 1312198724 94271 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :add it to the set of results < 1312198734 581246 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and add it and its symmetries to the set of visited patterns < 1312198755 282762 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and repeat until there are no more unvisited patterns < 1312198761 20025 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1312198771 267962 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd still be O(2^n) unfortunately < 1312198797 199616 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but I'd be able to reasonably calculate, say, 4x4 < 1312198826 959424 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :for 4x4 it'd be a speedup of something like 128 times? < 1312198837 56321 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :no more than that < 1312198855 539178 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are more symmetries < 1312198870 475689 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the translationals * flip horizontal * flip vertical...flip diagonal too? < 1312198902 57006 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grah. In the channel list, Quassel uses for regular incoming chat the color that XChat used for pings < 1312198907 962487 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip diagonal, plus, in the case of a square, rotation < 1312198913 228015 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :by either 90 or 270 degrees < 1312198916 521013 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah good point < 1312198924 70265 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :PLUS the translations of each flip and rotation < 1312198930 684937 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, hence * and not + < 1312198963 295437 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it becomes w * h * (6 if square, 4 otherwise) < 1312198972 453910 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1312198998 323089 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :now do that redundancy 2^wh times < 1312199000 818543 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you're in trouble < 1312199092 949172 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I need to deal with the fact that such large numbers are simply damn difficult to manage < 1312199113 541934 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this an open problem or some personal curiousity thing < 1312199131 84077 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter, possibly the former < 1312199153 623676 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be really nice if I could design something that didn't require creating a set of 2^wh elements < 1312199159 927455 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be n ice < 1312199190 406521 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main issue, really, is enumerating the patterns < 1312199263 691822 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: we're talking about the script for islands in GoL < 1312199274 324869 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ooh, cool < 1312199301 21748 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose I could try only storing the canonical values < 1312199310 195853 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :also crud < 1312199312 164360 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :edens is broken < 1312199325 367882 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :two things to fix@ < 1312199328 148812 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We still haven't proven anything other than that for at least some size finite GoL boards, there are stranded oscillators? < 1312199338 281117 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or did we prove something recently? < 1312199363 18687 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea: < 1312199365 870746 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :use night and day instead of GoL < 1312199370 330884 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way you have another symmetry, flipping 0s and 1s < 1312199374 41938 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :2* speedup < 1312199405 852665 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Results in Night & Day may not necessarily apply to GoL. Does Night & Day have that "Easy predecessor" thing? < 1312199416 506128 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :no clue < 1312199423 420699 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was about to ask if night and day has interesting edens or not < 1312199515 440187 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I'm working on the script to calculate all islands of a given size < 1312199527 183313 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, all islands on a torus of a given size < 1312199541 657321 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the torus is for the w*h speedup < 1312199551 800532 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: Huh? < 1312199563 313960 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :he can use translational symmetries on a torus < 1312199575 397214 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only have to care about 1/w*h as many unique patterns as before < 1312199627 333497 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION would be uncertain as to how to implement such a thing. Maybe calculating all possibilities and comparing?
< 1312199632 887894 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it meaningful to describe a single celled torus? :D < 1312199635 76900 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I pictured a directed graph < 1312199642 171571 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: yes < 1312199647 683595 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would kind of defeat the purpose but.. ya know.. its funny < 1312199653 793181 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be its own neighbor < 1312199655 207780 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALL OF THEM < 1312199662 911872 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU < 1312199663 989378 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :talk about a multiple personality disordered CA < 1312199666 516438 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :he makes friends with himself < 1312199669 180715 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :all 8 of himself < 1312199678 801985 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :he gradually goes insane and kills himself < 1312199691 325358 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :next iteration, only an empty space was found on the crime scene < 1312199697 137237 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :RIP little buddy < 1312199725 205907 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1312199738 706009 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :if cellular automata was night and day this not happen :( < 1312199767 86616 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: I'm a little unfamiliar with directed graphs < 1312199780 545261 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312199785 91199 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo: as in, you'd list every distinct pattern, iterate them once, and link them to the distinct pattern they become < 1312199798 552745 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1312199799 646363 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way you can see which patterns (call them islands) are not on a graph with an eden in them < 1312199837 49289 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...wait, how does that help? < 1312199854 448274 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might not < 1312199854 768613 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :An oscillator with period... wait, n/m < 1312199858 150536 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use it to find edens though < 1312199871 781167 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :every pattern that has no pattern pointing to it is an eden < 1312199879 742508 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, iterate each eden until it loops. < 1312199883 259654 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :all patterns left over are islands < 1312199889 161809 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooooooohhhhh < 1312199893 820792 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wonder it wasn't working < 1312199906 637037 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the inefficiency may have been related to this bug < 1312199919 624137 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: straned cycles ~= islands < 1312199935 191916 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't even need to do that, if all possible patterns are represented, you have all iterations < 1312199984 203333 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iterating is just the same as finding what .. wait, < 1312199990 198264 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm too tired and hungry for this < 1312200010 670936 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312200060 287077 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :k, I'm downgrading it from "fucking slow and a horrible space leak" to "goddamn slow" < 1312200081 590929 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: What language is it? < 1312200083 258071 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait derp derp < 1312200084 908962 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: haskell < 1312200089 25233 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot something important < 1312200104 660717 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179112092.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1312200124 376706 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no I didn't < 1312200147 444194 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I only calculate the canonical form for each pattern < 1312200163 944120 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312200166 163710 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could change it to eat space instead of time < 1312200173 18206 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you only calculate canonical forms? < 1312200187 737040 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd pretty much destroy the universe either way, wouldn't it? < 1312200187 824716 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can only imagine determining all forms, then comparing :( < 1312200193 71673 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I mean for each pattern, I calculate it's canonical form and get on with my life < 1312200196 877906 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: yeah < 1312200212 637934 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: speaking of which, do you have anything to say about the "talking time" forum other than it's got LPs on it? < 1312200225 66618 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*its < 1312200253 522552 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I only go there for the LP subforum < 1312200263 242494 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I post there every now and then < 1312200264 911805 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's plays? < 1312200265 855811 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: basically the options are "calculate the canonical form of every pattern and store each one" or "given a pattern, calculate all symmetries and remove them" < 1312200271 394038 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: Yeah, I noticed < 1312200272 38431 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: yes < 1312200277 408726 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read through the MMBN thread < 1312200289 130119 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :their IRC channel is weird, more or less everyone there seems to know each other in real life < 1312200293 555071 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the problem is you're dealing with expoential growth either way < 1312200296 774998 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I stopped going there as a result < 1312200328 651793 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a certain kind of pattern that is never useful to consider? < 1312200333 219196 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the 4x4 case could shed light on it < 1312200333 807976 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: and you actually start to hit real size constraints (as in, sets can store only 2^32 elements in Haskell. That's enough, right?) < 1312200347 942915 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: Well some patterns always are islands in some circumstances < 1312200375 790635 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :notably, an alternating pattern in a 1-by-n torus is stable < 1312200396 958827 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and quite clearly an eden < 1312200407 707265 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but really the 1-by-n case is degenerate < 1312200412 668015 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're dealing with a different CA < 1312200416 903378 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I think you could save space by expending a lot of time. Go to add a pattern. Recalculate all symmetries of all canonical forms, and compare, before possibly adding. < 1312200431 147132 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: The current algorithm is this: < 1312200434 632750 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :start at n = 0 < 1312200443 996845 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :determine the pattern for n < 1312200448 831883 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :compute its canonical form < 1312200470 999926 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol @ sets can only store 2^32 elements < 1312200480 276283 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :insert into the set < 1312200493 234459 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're going to be stuck at 6x6 with a naive algorithm < 1312200496 371935 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :go for n + 1 < 1312200503 969663 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: yeah < 1312200511 196658 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: if I choose space consumption < 1312200531 623963 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, IE8 is annoying me already < 1312200535 587621 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, see if there are any set libraries in Haskell that don't have that limitation? < 1312200545 803094 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I go time, I can do it in space proportional to the number of symmetry groups < 1312200559 38616 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I presume so, but I don't have the RAM for it anyway on this machine < 1312200562 165990 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ponders stupid space saving tricks
< 1312200575 131274 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's too late at night for me to find such a library and run it on a higher-powered machine < 1312200603 731696 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fit several ns into one number, store that number < 1312200604 372545 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I haven't checked the context of this conversation at all < 1312200612 283518 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but given Sgeo's involvement, I'm guessing it's the Game of Life < 1312200616 206813 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That's just a hack around the limitation < 1312200622 151147 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you still have N bits of data to store < 1312200622 386448 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not store a set of sets < 1312200623 521221 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: yeah < 1312200627 620159 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you get 2^32 squared storage < 1312200641 989022 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: again, hacking around limitations does not remove the fundamental space problem < 1312200652 709996 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, I'm just lolling at the thought of it < 1312200672 446050 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION likes Patashu's hack better
< 1312200694 64105 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :an interesting question is how many different symmetry groups there are for grids on a x by y torus < 1312200703 602800 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it have a succinct generating series? < 1312200710 823739 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh! < 1312200713 886673 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, I wish I wasn't too tired to be involved in an actually useful way < 1312200726 698176 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :my code found two islands for 4x3, allegedly < 1312200741 786475 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :symmetry _groups_? < 1312200758 92493 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes < 1312200759 768591 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any canonical pattern should have at least 4xy ... thingies, possibly more < 1312200775 880028 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of which may be identical, but whatever < 1312200777 658554 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Not all unique < 1312200810 790394 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :equivalence classes is a better term < 1312200812 136280 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's use that < 1312200822 627505 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should go eat < 1312200850 101583 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1312200872 146133 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the block in a corner is an island in a 4x3 torus < 1312200873 129671 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179112092.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1312200884 458335 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually wait that's just any block < 1312200920 269052 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, I just got a ridiculous notification popup from the /browser/ < 1312200925 604538 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was the system tray's job < 1312200945 909239 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do "download completed" notifications often. < 1312201056 1444 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other is an s shape < 1312201072 361198 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is also stable < 1312201085 194187 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting that no island I know of has period greater than 1 < 1312201147 642167 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: this one was a "temporarily can't access Microsoft's anti-phishing servers, so we're not sure if Freenode is a phishing site or not" < 1312201272 238357 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: Possibly they just don't want to do notifications-by-the-system portably. It's a bit of a mess on Linux, I believe; there's a D-BUS-driven freedesktop spec but... (Also on OS X quite many things support Growl, even though it's very third-party.) < 1312201292 296336 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: oh, Microsoft are aware that that sort of notification shouldn't exist in the first place < 1312201308 948397 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they moved it from the system tray to IE just so that they could arbitrarily annoy me without having to break their own guidelines < 1312201481 104209 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's a related-to-a-single-site-you-just-navigated-to notification, the system tray (isn't it called "notification area" nowadays?) sounds like the wrong place for it even in a common-sense way. < 1312201559 886366 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it never was called the system tray, officially < 1312201570 835683 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1312201575 60240 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the name came about because the program responsible for it is called SYSTRAY.EXE < 1312201582 131821 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it always was the notification area < 1312201775 473583 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funnily enough, the X replacement is called "system tray" officially (in the FreeDesktop spec), but Ubuntu's new (not so new any more) "Ayatana Indicators" thing replaces it with an "indicator area". < 1312201795 490500 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1312201835 693793 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312201915 983163 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, 4x2 has a period 2 island < 1312201934 127927 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actually let's call that an archipelago) < 1312201937 875670 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1312202054 920681 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god < 1312202058 828291 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is like number theory < 1312202061 570057 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone here have an idea why IE8 seems to change the color of tabs in a way which probably isn't random, but which I haven't figured out the pattern in yet? < 1312202083 676732 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :since any island can be repeated in a torus that its own divides into evenly to produce another island < 1312202090 979616 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus you have 'prime' islands < 1312202172 307577 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't it so that by definition any predecessors of an island are also islands? If so, then if your block is one, the well-known block parents (pre-block, grin) should be too. < 1312202329 365714 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, unexpected flamewars to find on the Internet: an argument over whether BT (the telecomps company) is/are singular or plural < 1312202351 25775 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: Tabs of the same color are part of the same "tab group" which you can (up to some degree) handle as a group. Don't know about the grouping, except in general terms opening one tab from another (with open-in-new-tab or ctrl/middle-click) should put the new tab into the same group as the original tab, while other methods of creating new tabs should possibly make new groups. < 1312202375 582850 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Islands are necessarily closed loops < 1312202384 922607 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, what if you set up a pattern that doesn't have a 5x5 hole, is in normal GoL a >p1 oscillator, yet the torus is just large enough that it won't interfere with itself < 1312202397 216633 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ah, OK < 1312202397 491953 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: In 4x3's case, because of the wrapping, there are no pre-blocks < 1312202407 985052 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that explain why a tab group arbitrarily changes color within itself? < 1312202416 629970 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: dunno < 1312202416 647981 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, one of these groups was previously green and is now blue < 1312202437 9534 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : Ooh, 4x2 has a period 2 island < 1312202439 798317 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't see that < 1312202453 440377 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: s tetronimo < 1312202483 322524 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh, I'm going to have to ask someone to explain what's going on in the US debt crisis to me < 1312202488 297027 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also has 2 period 1 islands, modulo symmetry < 1312202493 81160 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I was offline for a few days, and when I come back, suddenly none of it makes sense < 1312202513 611769 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: current status is an agreement has been reached between political leaders < 1312202524 348060 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and everyone's hoping it will meet the approval of Congress as a whole < 1312202530 26886 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, OK < 1312202532 699765 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: What do you mean no pre-blocks? Isn't http://p.zem.fi/hcaf a pre-block in a 4x3 torus? < 1312202536 146662 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the agreement particularly sane? < 1312202577 957392 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, what oscillators have non-changing bounding boxes? < 1312202595 667013 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: No, because the cell (0, 1) will come to life < 1312202609 641411 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: another excellent question < 1312202621 264131 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: wholly unrelated, of course < 1312202636 975753 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo, I've seen oscillators with external framework and internal action < 1312202640 53279 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have non-changing boundary boxes < 1312202658 836446 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better yet: Non-changing bounding boxes, and no 5x5 holes. Then, I _think_ there should be a torus on which it's an island < 1312202659 989793 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :often you get an oscillator that spits a cell or two which dies promptly < 1312202670 281767 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Which cell is (0, 1)? < 1312202686 715865 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, (1, 0), (x, y) counting from the bottom left < 1312202711 412090 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually wait that whole two columns goes on < 1312202723 938274 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the thing starts oscillating < 1312202769 314186 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, it's really that non-tall. What's the word. Short. < 1312202788 873496 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it's possible to prove that all islands meet that spec, or a slightly enlarged version of it < 1312202822 102195 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one I just pointed out has a changing bounding box < 1312202832 104634 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312202857 862036 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1312202864 7760 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Changing how? < 1312202875 931555 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably open Golly < 1312202932 476325 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh, can't do it < 1312202959 5710 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still think no-5x5 no-bounding-change is an easy way to find islands < 1312203110 750831 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it moves < 1312203128 231431 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it shifts itself halfway around the torus in one generation in both dimensions < 1312203143 2146 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the bounding box doesn't change in size, just in location? < 1312203168 328326 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, thought I discarded that direction due to other considerations < 1312203171 291341 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION slaps self
< 1312203183 177291 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :two islands detected in 5x3 < 1312203295 126458 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :both are stable < 1312203734 763022 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, opinions on Java 7 miscompiling code? < 1312203748 688638 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a way that comes up a lot in real projects (it affects at least Lucene)? < 1312203752 808118 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Sounds like a good idea to me." < 1312203756 729357 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1312203760 986160 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :miscompiling code? < 1312203763 149139 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Will teach those programmers to behave themselves." < 1312203768 678346 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently one of the optimisations that's on by default is broken < 1312203780 503814 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and can cause SIGSEGV or silently give wrong results < 1312203790 522643 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one? < 1312203796 571895 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It *is* very new. < 1312203821 111587 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :-XX:UseLoopPredicate < 1312203839 623648 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oracle discovered five days before release, and did the release anyway without even changing the default setting < 1312203846 692842 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1312203879 303222 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just seems out of character for them < 1312203891 991064 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it probably affects their own software too < 1312203895 613193 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: Well, you know. "You acknowledge that Licensed Software is not designed or intended for use in the design, construction, operation or maintenance of any nuclear facility." < 1312203922 254712 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit < 1312203928 485440 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I openend my old email archive for a reason < 1312203936 689567 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I haven't a clue what that reason is < 1312204047 920194 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :'The 7th release of Java today seems that introduced some nasty bugs caused by hotspot compiler optimizations miscompiling some loops. Code containing loops will propably be affected by this bug.' < 1312204052 105641 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Code without any loops however is A-OK! < 1312204062 760621 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: recusive code! < 1312204094 854846 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, code I'm annoyed at having to write: (void*)(int)0 < 1312204103 542815 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I want the value of 0, stored in a pointer < 1312204106 397429 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a null pointer < 1312204119 961152 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and ofc, this is in x86-specific code anyway and NULL == 0 there, so it's all pointless anyway) < 1312204120 604178 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1312204131 145989 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could also use a non-constant expression for 0 < 1312204131 751871 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you need 0 as a pointer < 1312204137 595805 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's been some of the most cast-heavy code I've ever written < 1312204139 415606 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :int i = 0; (void*)i < 1312204160 200269 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: because the x86 does not care whether its registers are holding pointers or integers < 1312204166 894174 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so any declaration for an x86 register is going to be wrong < 1312204176 91503 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :aah < 1312204194 454561 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, some syscalls (like ioctl and ptrace) take arguments that are generically 32-bit, and written as void* but sometimes you cast integers to void* and pass them there rather than pointers to the integers < 1312204261 312416 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: union x86register { void * p; int i; }; < 1312204262 801652 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1312204272 812486 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1312204289 442314 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's been a lot of casting for signedness and bitwidth too < 1312204301 713699 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it doesn't say that in sys/user.h < 1312204310 393064 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the include file which has a big notice saying that it exists only for GDB) < 1312204318 667405 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1312204369 402405 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least I've more or less figured out what it's for, now < 1312204384 769207 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: Are you sure the cast helps? A null pointer is created when you have "An integer constant expression with the value 0", and an "integer constant expression" can involve "operands that are integer constants -- cast operators -- [that] convert arithmetic types to integer types". < 1312204394 284048 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh < 1312204419 223069 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe even "(void *)(int)0.0" gives you a null pointer. < 1312204424 473671 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I deleted that bit of code anyway, though < 1312204434 183015 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what about (void*)*"" < 1312204444 18745 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an idea < 1312204446 469571 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :subtract a pointer from itself < 1312204447 240281 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :bam, 0 < 1312204452 824753 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :NULL-NULL ? < 1312204457 408663 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe NULL-(int)NULL < 1312204464 762050 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: that's a ptrdiff_t, not a (void*) < 1312204477 800738 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and NULL-(int)NULL quite possibly gives SIGSEGV < 1312204482 224768 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the mere subtraction < 1312204486 687980 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1312204489 991015 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not even dereferencing it < 1312204493 290601 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1312204496 879968 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :then why... < 1312204500 784239 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointer values must point to actual objects, or one past < 1312204502 259816 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at all times < 1312204512 257770 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and must point to an object and not be one-past if you dereference them < 1312204513 253145 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what part of the architecture checks? < 1312204526 68099 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can easily imagine a VM for C checking that < 1312204537 47064 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on what pointers are in it < 1312204549 631804 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are (supposedly) architectures where "address registers" are special, and loading an invalid value there (even without derefencing it) can blow up. < 1312204569 444224 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also incredibly useful for the optimizer < 1312204579 566173 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've had an idea < 1312204599 718064 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it allows to eliminate all code that would lead to invalid pointers < 1312204654 778127 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :An esolang that is to Iota what Smalltalk is to Haskell < 1312204659 702443 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. void foo(int i) { int a[5]; int *p = a; p += i; } the optimizer can assume that i is from 0 to 5 < 1312204669 419613 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :moreover, if lto is used < 1312204678 722171 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can assume that any caller of foo will have i in that range < 1312204684 292587 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :object oriented iota? < 1312204707 884184 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much < 1312204713 999053 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, Jot. < 1312204732 299831 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find Smalltalk : Haskell :: X : ? pretty difficult to calculate for any X but Smalltalk < 1312204739 940034 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1312204749 251698 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, I can't visualise the operator that transforms Smalltalk into Haskell or vice versa < 1312204752 149937 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're pretty different < 1312204781 713280 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is the archetypical functional language < 1312204792 966637 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smalltalk is the archetypical object orientated language < 1312204793 502602 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not < 1312204798 733821 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :iota is functional < 1312204805 285841 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's some kind of object oriented lambda calculus i guess < 1312204813 428556 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regarding the earlier thing, *"" is not an integer constant expression, so that shouldn't give a null pointer (well, necessarily). (void *)'\0' is a valid null pointer, though. < 1312204814 978840 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The archetypical functional language is lisp < 1312204822 726633 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, fine < 1312204831 579456 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is quite unusual as functional languages go < 1312204835 681273 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This language will be to Jot what Smalltalk is to Lisp < 1312204838 418797 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That better? < 1312204840 466696 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Common Lisp isn't even particularly be functional < 1312204847 793520 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :certain subsets of Scheme are < 1312204850 640832 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1312204871 265340 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :be functional? < 1312204872 330489 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: well, *"" is a constant, and an integer < 1312204893 737072 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I'm tired, and I forget where I am in the parse tree halfway through sentences sometimes < 1312204897 995593 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I closed a " with a ) a few days ago < 1312204905 308805 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You get the point, though < 1312204920 801738 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's going to be an entirely object orientated turing tarpit < 1312204935 89904 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like Glass? < 1312204935 747529 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you make an object oriented turing tarpit? < 1312204940 705774 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glass is the opposite of a tarpit I thought < 1312204945 183204 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1312204947 621605 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: Yes, but it's not an integer constant expression. < 1312204951 408004 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just know it's an OO esolang < 1312204957 943706 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: fair enough < 1312204959 312790 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glass is the really verbose one iirc < 1312204971 804388 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: Alternatively, (void *)(1-1) is okay too. < 1312204974 236806 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Single letters are verbose? < 1312204979 218496 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: no, that's ORK < 1312204979 259371 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm < 1312204981 416681 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1312204995 395578 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll start with an anonymous generic superclass object < 1312205009 203083 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or (void *)(0?0:0). < 1312205041 294957 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glass looks cool < 1312205061 556427 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: gah, you've reminded me of all the "if 0 then skip else skip" I'm putting at the end of trivial ICA programs < 1312205069 639038 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe not. It speaks of allowed operands; maybe it allows operators too. < 1312205086 138930 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to work around a bug in GHDL, which when translated back into ICA terms means that programs will crash the backend compiler unless they contain at least one if statement < 1312205094 911212 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL ais < 1312205119 359503 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, string literals aren't not in the list of allowed operands, so *"" is very safe. < 1312205131 642506 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm glad it can be fixed with a simple if statement, at least < 1312205133 935974 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the value of *"" < 1312205136 385135 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my earlier workaround was much worse < 1312205137 846432 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: 0 < 1312205138 313223 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: 0. < 1312205147 898385 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :why...oh, I get why < 1312205150 502263 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because "" is a zero-length string, so its first character is the end-of-string marker < 1312205154 811133 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can write it as ""[0] if it's clearer that way. < 1312205163 564279 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or 0[""] if you're feeling especially perverse. < 1312205166 221660 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1312205169 5670 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can write it like that even if it isn't clearer that way < 1312205188 900486 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about *&*"" < 1312205195 741419 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: when golfing C, it often saves a couple of characters to reverse a subscript because it can cut down on the parens you need < 1312205202 612238 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not convinced &* works < 1312205206 910723 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :&* is not kosher, no. < 1312205209 494238 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm not convinced it doesn't either < 1312205214 273556 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't take an address of non-lvalue. < 1312205218 644501 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something. < 1312205220 235298 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but *x is an lvalue < 1312205225 86935 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1312205225 634573 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that why I wasn't sure < 1312205229 266238 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it actually does. < 1312205249 839717 :angstrom!~Unknown@unaffiliated/angstrom PRIVMSG #esoteric :**&"" should work, though < 1312205260 765304 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("blah"); < 1312205262 850740 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was either the *& or &* pair that you were explicitly allowed to completely remove. < 1312205269 255097 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the c interpreter again < 1312205271 408255 :angstrom!~Unknown@unaffiliated/angstrom PRIVMSG #esoteric :*& iirc < 1312205287 188500 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, *& wouldn't do anything < 1312205287 348076 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :think we're missing an egobot actually < 1312205304 170964 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, my BF Joust record is safe < 1312205314 304416 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, it is &* that you can remove without evaluating. < 1312205340 451255 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If the operand [of &] is the result of a unary * operator, neither that operator nor the & operator is evaluated and the result is as if both were omitted, except that the constraints on the operators still apply and the result is not an lvalue." < 1312205372 612601 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, so you can't do &**x = 6; < 1312205475 665874 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh, I'm pretty sure I've found at least two kernel bugs, but one is likely to be impossible to reproduce < 1312205507 357887 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it ended up with a process that wasn't a zombie, but most of its /proc/n/* data gave errors when I tried to read it (even as root) < 1312205514 417371 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it couldn't be killed, not even as root, not even with -9 < 1312205520 890354 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was apparently being ptraced by init (the real init) < 1312205535 941334 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure when it happened, I just found it lying around in top < 1312205537 145207 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :&'s constraints on operands are: "either a function designator, the result of a [] or unary * operator, or an lvalue that designates an object -- [no bitfields or 'register' objs]"; a string literal, though, isn't an lvalue, so you can't do &"" to begin with. < 1312205588 461084 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the *&*"" should be acceptable. < 1312205603 69493 :angstrom!~Unknown@unaffiliated/angstrom PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense, yeah < 1312205640 154475 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this reminds me of the proggit discussion on (a, b) > c, where a is an integer, b is a bitfield slice, and the > c gives different returns depending on the signedness of its left argument < 1312205658 843430 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently an automatic compiler fuzzer tool tried it on six different compilers, and got two different answers, each from three of the compilers < 1312205709 804118 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a, b) > c < 1312205712 32436 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is that valid C++ < 1312205715 744394 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't undertand , I guess < 1312205717 729534 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what language? < 1312205740 332398 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C < 1312205751 962709 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right /that/ < 1312205760 522333 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember now < 1312205760 908149 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the comma operator evalutes its left argument, then ignores it and returns the value of its right argument < 1312205767 6015 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah yeah < 1312205770 319477 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :this came up on clang < 1312205777 324498 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it came up on all the compilers they tested < 1312205785 707170 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as they couldn't tell which behaviour was correct by majority vote < 1312205790 386442 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I mean development discussion < 1312205816 627639 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seemed to me relatively clear that the only reasonable reading of the standard had , preserve bit-fieldness < 1312205817 22800 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what's the quote unquote right answer < 1312205842 724643 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ also noticed this issue long ago and resolved it in that fashion < 1312205877 733433 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, what happens if the left argument has IO < 1312205884 167353 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: then the IO gets done < 1312205887 112379 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is evaluated and discarded < 1312205891 278103 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's part of the reason you might want to use , < 1312205904 207634 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although more often, you do a side effect that changes local or global state than IO < 1312205920 820371 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never think about using , < 1312205926 301826 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. using i++,j++ as the third argument to for < 1312205935 925430 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh except for for loop updates < 1312206010 404530 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PART :#esoteric < 1312206015 710490 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312206154 429254 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think my spec for Smallertalk is using to many regexes < 1312206172 395000 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :can never use too many regexes < 1312206206 679188 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :this does not sense the make :/ < 1312206230 121984 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Hint: it's a BMW) < 1312206270 296734 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, string literals *are* lvalues, since they designate an object; they're just not modifiable lvalues. So you can do a &"foo". < 1312206304 365623 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but isn't it possible they'll be inlined? < 1312206308 293611 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :&"foo" is the same address as "foo", though? just a different type and size? < 1312206309 136927 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fromList [fromList [Point 4 4 0 0,Point 4 4 0 1,Point 4 4 0 2,Point 4 4 0 3,Point 4 4 1 0,Point 4 4 1 1],fromList [Point 4 4 0 0,Point 4 4 0 1,Point 4 4 0 2,Point 4 4 1 0,Point 4 4 1 1,Point 4 4 1 3,Point 4 4 2 1,Point 4 4 3 0],fromList [Point 4 4 0 0,Point 4 4 0 1,Point 4 4 0 2,Point 4 4 1 0,Point 4 4 1 3,Point 4 4 2 1,Point 4 4 3 0],fromList [Point 4 4 0 0,Point 4 4 0 1,Point 4 4 0 2,Point 4 4 1 0,Point 4 4 2 1,Point 4 4 3 0,Point 4 4 3 3], < 1312206324 514989 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ set of sets of points on a 4x4 torus that are in archipelagos < 1312206343 425654 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is exactly the set that are in islands < 1312206348 226737 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 4x4 has no stable islands, apparently < 1312206380 440100 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: Right; "foo" is the char[4]-typed object, which decays in most context into a char*; &"foo" is the pointer-to-char[4] address and no longer a lvalue. They both point to the same location in memory. < 1312206428 294990 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, doesn't char[4] decay into char* in all contexts in which its value matters? < 1312206434 50221 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only places it doesn't are metadata checks < 1312206546 995150 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, in all expressions except for when it's the operand of the & or sizeof operator; or when in the initializer of a character array. < 1312206602 537302 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is rather funny, though: < 1312206606 392941 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo -e '#include \n int main(void) { printf("%u %u %u\\n", (unsigned)sizeof "a", (unsigned)sizeof &"a", (unsigned) sizeof *&"a"); }' | gcc -xc -o ./tmp.tmp - 2>&1 ; ./tmp.tmp < 1312206607 731313 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 8 2 < 1312206673 621435 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh < 1312206674 468394 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :It works < 1312206675 822542 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tmp.tmp is a weird temporary filename < 1312206678 900439 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I normally use /tmpt/ < 1312206681 277178 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :* /tmp/t < 1312206713 576704 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to use tmp or tmp.tmp for files in the cwd, /tmp/x otherwise < 1312206713 624126 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't really recall what sort of file system it has visible there, so thought "." might be safest. < 1312206736 445614 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run pwd < 1312206737 522962 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/hackenv.17687 < 1312206743 273098 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That looks quite autocleaned. < 1312206755 572729 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :try using reserved words < 1312206761 713132 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can deduce what file system it is < 1312206771 923239 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then bust out the mad file system exploits and get root !! < 1312206777 478111 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, that filename has a space in? < 1312206781 368630 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, rather, dirname? < 1312206793 737675 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"/ tmp/hackenv.17867" < 1312206798 495776 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see it < 1312206801 108398 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see a space there either. < 1312206814 126673 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, this client must be mad < 1312206854 662744 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it's inside that Plash thing, it fakes the filesystem-access library calls however it wants. < 1312206860 796962 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1312206944 812127 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, did you know that BSD have standardised exit codes for commands? < 1312206956 523970 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that the standardisation covers some relatively unlikely events, but not some relatively common ones? < 1312206972 530970 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run readlink /proc/self/fd/0 < 1312206973 670089 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :pipe:[4783072] < 1312206998 17290 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wasn't expecting that, but I suppose it's inevitable < 1312207003 183196 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying out things that caught my program out < 1312207012 381445 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I haven't found many < 1312207031 704095 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also wrote an execbomb, just for fun < 1312207064 223924 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like a forkbomb except with exec rather than fork, so it just does an infinite loop with a lot of kernel overhead rather than spamming processes everywhere < 1312207069 795329 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISTR that Plash does the faked filesystem library calls by actually using sendmsg/recvmsg to do RPC with the hosting process, and completely disables the "direct" syscall access somehow, can't remember quite how. (There's a non-root-user chroot jail at least, but I think it also did something else.) < 1312207071 502023 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, I thought it'd help me track down a bug, but it didn't) < 1312207087 964568 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: probably PTRACE_SYSCALL, that's what I'm using < 1312207101 99272 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :disallowing arbitrary syscalls or faking them is quite easy like that < 1312207112 824378 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, turns out that _newselect does do something, I caught a program using it < 1312207116 603576 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I can tell, it's identical to select < 1312207125 176738 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I was just wondering why it then bothers with a faked libc, but I guess it's easier to include arbitrary code in there that way. < 1312207128 777626 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :for (;;) execv("/proc/self/exe", argv); ? < 1312207173 281193 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm not using a fake libc, so that I can handle arbitrary executables, no matter how insane < 1312207191 56239 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm surprised at some of the insanity I've seen running it on random programs I had lying around < 1312207216 455792 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of them even calls personality(2) for reasons I don't understand, I had to change from disallowing it to simply preventing it being used to turn on ASLR < 1312207222 255974 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run readlink /proc/self/exe < 1312207223 308753 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/usr/bin/python2.5 < 1312207226 594877 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was a bit funny. < 1312207278 661399 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(my mistake was that I have a symlink that I'm pretending is actually a character device, and forgot to stop readlink working on it) < 1312207293 15642 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also have a regular file that I'm pretending is actually a character device < 1312207306 103110 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for /dev/fb0 < 1312207316 938208 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's personality for? < 1312207321 833498 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually got Wesnoth to run and produce graphical output < 1312207325 638148 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: mostly, it changes syscall numbers < 1312207344 236862 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for if you want to run an executable from a different OS that has syscalls similar to Linux's, but different numbers < 1312207352 983908 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can also use it to turn ASLR on or off < 1312207356 379164 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a few other things too < 1312207357 269185 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: Couldn't you just have it be a /dev/null clone? Though I guess that's not much less to fake, just the type. < 1312207377 83119 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: mmaping /dev/null as shared does not produce useful results < 1312207419 322564 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 . < 1312207438 141366 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you're actually letting the process to mmap it and then reading the graphics from the file? < 1312207441 356221 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1312207448 65884 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nifty. < 1312207460 855906 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then repacking the data into a PNG < 1312207554 880057 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd have been hilarious if I could just get it to operate on the data section of a bitmap directly < 1312207563 183359 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that wouldn't allow for screen resolution changes < 1312207589 90276 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also disguise a pty as a vt, but that's not all that surprising < 1312207670 421275 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and /dev/input/mice is actually a FIFO < 1312207684 675349 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many types of file do I have left to disguise as character devices? < 1312207698 118697 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :directory could be a little hard, block device would probably be a bad idea < 1312207703 494268 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Door. < 1312207708 19921 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's a Solaris thing.) < 1312207716 223619 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and things like doors and whiteouts, I don't know what they're for < 1312207719 61052 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(whiteouts are BSD) < 1312207780 211741 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doors are some sort of IPC thing, you can register them, and then get invoked by other processes. < 1312207812 493670 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I forgot sockets < 1312207826 553652 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(AF_UNIX sockets, that is, the ones that can be implemented inside a sandbox without going insane) < 1312207831 952481 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least PulseAudio is trying to use them < 1312207852 723702 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(am I insane for wanting to get a copy of PulseAudio running inside this sandbox?) < 1312207868 782654 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it depends on what you actually need the sandbox for. < 1312207891 874475 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :D-Bus runs on Unix domain sockets (IIRC) and it's quite widely used. < 1312207917 257251 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess it can run over TCP too. < 1312207923 336032 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, any dependency of anything, in theory < 1312207937 896918 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so far, most of the dependencies have been reasonably sane < 1312207943 936998 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although seeing the internals of how SDL works worries me < 1312207982 971263 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(basically, it does everything in a loop which just calls nanosleep and gettimeofday alternately, and then when it likes the time of day calls select to see if any input has happened) < 1312208031 913154 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, it does, IIRC, 32768 ioctls in a row to grab the scancode/keyboard mapping, which really grinds ptrace to a halt) < 1312208063 267042 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've taken a few peeks at its code when puzzling something out, and it's not the most cleanestly architectured thing there is. < 1312208103 764574 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's something about a loop that /just/ contains nanosleep and gettimeofday that makes me angry < 1312208113 452221 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, why wouldn't you just sleep for the amount of time you want to sleep for? < 1312208133 261756 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :nanosleep provides no guarantees on how long it actually ends up sleeping. < 1312208139 854640 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it provides a minimum < 1312208158 406324 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it can easily be interrupted in the middle. < 1312208170 429515 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Though you can of course notice that.) < 1312208174 295300 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, but its third argument tells you how much time it has left < 1312208182 709010 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and its return value says it's happened, too < 1312208190 35978 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it at least call nanosleep with different values, or just some fixed small offset? < 1312208203 678630 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even then, the only things that interrupt it are signal /handlers/ (not general signals) < 1312208207 828282 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :small fixed offset < 1312208215 551458 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 millisecond, IIRC < 1312208220 972732 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh-eh. < 1312208226 30459 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess they don't trust their nanosleep. < 1312208227 59653 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I get confused counting zeros < 1312208255 627515 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially because most things my code does are in nanoseconds internally, in one place even picoseconds < 1312208269 856271 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :woo < 1312208274 795344 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I pulled an all-nghter < 1312208278 852600 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*nighter < 1312208312 406857 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could understand checking gettimeofday and not relying the nanosleep timekeeping (there's delays involved if you just continue with the "leftover time" values too many times), but always sleeping the same amount of time is a bit silly. < 1312208328 757562 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for pixel clock timings, which I'm not sure if anyone cares about but people are asking about, possibly to gain other information at the same time) < 1312208344 463824 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, I can understand a gettimeofday check to work out how long to sleep for < 1312208374 718763 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(nowdays there's also clock_nanosleep, which can be told to sleep until a specified absolute time, and gets rid of error-accumulation issues that way) < 1312208411 22066 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, wow, Python is older than PHP? < 1312208414 291638 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hadn't realised that < 1312208473 245500 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they both predate Java? < 1312208524 852773 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: don't start telling me that COBOL predates C now < 1312208533 986510 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't surprise me < 1312208550 343808 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no clue if it's true < 1312208555 863985 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179112092.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1312208564 603027 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most popularish languages were created in the chronological order that I expected them to have been created in < 1312208567 220661 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia says COBOL is 13 years the junior < 1312208570 2958 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but those relationships surprised me < 1312208576 772787 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :*senior < 1312208582 995009 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: phew at that fix < 1312208587 254782 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1312208605 451907 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure of the relative age of COBOL and Algol < 1312208618 20632 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing COBOL first, but the other way round wouldn't surprise me < 1312208683 821069 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1312208955 889881 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1312209097 916879 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, Java 7 lets you catch multiple specific types of exception in one catch block < 1312209102 264827 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd be really useful if it got loops right < 1312209132 250004 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1312209157 688628 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have something that's more than a bare explanation and a code example < 1312209173 340963 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :try { ... } catch (FooException | BarException ex) { ... } < 1312209214 668087 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, http://download.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/util/Objects.html is freaking me out, it seems like a really bad idea < 1312209237 775849 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :creating helper functions to propagate nulls is pretty much exactly what a good program doesn't need < 1312209321 638821 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179112092.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1312209335 693603 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :eww < 1312209351 648720 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :to both < 1312209371 644954 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :also requireNonNull is more like an assertion < 1312209374 573859 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first is useful if there are a set of exceptions that have to be handled the same way < 1312209376 126117 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that in Java you don't assert < 1312209377 391241 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you throw < 1312209379 931505 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :requireNonNull I'm fine with < 1312209397 354886 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, it'd be hilarious if it threw a NPE on failure (I haven't looked at it) < 1312209415 389964 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow, it does as well < 1312209424 754005 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it does < 1312209428 259364 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what else would it do? < 1312209429 292048 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :crash? < 1312209440 194057 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :throw some other sort of exception, I suppose < 1312209450 844135 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's literally to just boilerplate < 1312209605 472515 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1312209613 667689 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod NICK :copumpkin_ < 1312209662 831358 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1312209668 944825 :copumpkin_!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod NICK :copumpkin < 1312209912 851066 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah < 1312209931 150819 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do I feel this need to put everything I want to read ever onto my Nook instead of reading on the computer? < 1312209965 442303 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :including IRC? < 1312210012 81436 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for IRC. Although hmm < 1312210089 57990 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats a Nook? < 1312210092 506481 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it an ebook reader? < 1312210098 260421 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1312210103 340005 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok heres the reason why. < 1312210119 92661 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to remember that it was being anti-boycotted by a set of people recently who were pleased with what their makers were doing < 1312210121 173109 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but forget why < 1312210125 204161 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :computers have resolutions like 1920x1080 or whatever... < 1312210133 644706 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as in, they were buying them even though they didn't need them) < 1312210158 426980 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :e-ink has huge resolutions bringing the system more in line with things like print < 1312210185 481554 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :also,(good) ebook readers presumably don't have an annoying refresh rate which you can't really see conciously < 1312210217 96782 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :low-res bothers the eyes, refreshes bother the eyes, bright light bothers the eyes < 1312210221 251457 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/27/barnes_and_noble_response_to_microsoft_suit/ is this related? < 1312210262 924223 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20, I don't think my eyes are that bothered by reading on the computer. I think what's bothering them is switching back and forth, which I'm doing a lot of now. Either that, or lack of sleep. < 1312210269 608736 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: probably < 1312210282 268820 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they're standing up to Microsoft, people will like them because of that < 1312210295 592128 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didnt just make up these beliefs... they stress your eyes < 1312210301 110979 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether you conciously care about it or not < 1312210422 279633 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :software patents strike again < 1312210453 339456 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's got to be at least three times, now < 1312210456 542330 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they out yet? < 1312210522 223822 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote software patents strike again < 1312210523 466850 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :556) software patents strike again < 1312210524 887895 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit < 1312210526 36714 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`revert < 1312210526 840116 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done. < 1312210542 390459 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong line? < 1312210546 255581 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote < itidus20> software patents strike again < ais523_> that's got to be at least three times, now < ais523_> are they out yet? < 1312210547 375955 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :557) < itidus20> software patents strike again < ais523_> that's got to be at least three times, now < ais523_> are they out yet? < 1312210589 607957 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :A king just kills his enemies regardless of the laws. It is somewhat naive of the open source community to think that the laws will protect them. However, it makes them good men(and women) and true. < 1312210593 211398 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, I really enjoy baseball for a non-American, although it's hard to find on TV for that reason; I don't particularly care about supporting any particular team, though) < 1312210615 441097 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: I think in the UK, it's theoretically impossible for the Queen to commit murder < 1312210622 713349 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they are protected by the laws so long as those same laws benefit the giant commercial businesses < 1312210626 183650 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although if she tried, no doubt the law would be changed, or at least she'd be forced out of office < 1312210661 465908 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Queen is not subject to the law of the United Kingdom < 1312210669 610065 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because she /is/ the United Kingdom < 1312210673 294879 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes she is < 1312210696 860225 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC she can't commit crimes, though, there's some sort of royal exception < 1312210729 103500 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :But... how to nintendo-ize this idea of the enemy bound by its own laws and turn it into a game. < 1312210734 736523 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know she can't go around killing people either < 1312210743 495555 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how much of my Nook usage is just me playing with my new toy < 1312210762 903360 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i ain't gonna say another god damn thing lest i commit some kind of treason < 1312210766 288840 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :being in australia and all < 1312210778 751066 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1312210827 695246 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Queen is theoretically allowed to prevent the Parliament from passing a bill < 1312210841 760340 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, the last time this power was utilized was 1704 < 1312210844 422438 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: she still has to sign them, but she's allowed to sign them by default nowadays < 1312210863 371471 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a law that says that if she doesn't express an opinion, some royal secretary can go sign them on her behalf < 1312210870 174829 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so she'd have to go to the effort of telling them not to < 1312210906 137272 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok... So... the category of game I propose is one in which only one team can create laws. But they also have to be bound by them. < 1312210935 250693 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... it's kinda like Nomic? < 1312210939 752349 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like.. suppose your enemy was on the ground and you were in the air.. you could create a law "anyone who is on the ground dies" < 1312210947 228666 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then.. you would have to avoid the ground < 1312210958 641613 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be really easy to create loopholes < 1312210966 760860 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless the set of laws you could create were really restricted < 1312210973 689959 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm.. < 1312210982 28094 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :also.. < 1312210992 69641 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the game would have to be continuous... < 1312211000 527666 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :er hmm... < 1312211004 930789 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno how.. < 1312211010 171916 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :this reminds me of that hilarious state where the governor was allowed to veto individual words < 1312211030 360991 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the ideas i discuss have been bouncing around in my head for ages < 1312211035 902332 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one crafty governor rewrote a bill by vetoing all be the words he wanted < 1312211041 172728 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is no exception. i just never said it this way < 1312211053 8647 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: reminds me of italicisation scams in BlogNomic < 1312211055 34610 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: 7 also adds that one typing-saver (that IDEs I guess generally autocomplete), you can write Map>> map = new HashMap<>(); without having to repeat the parameters. < 1312211063 872767 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I like that one too < 1312211078 420309 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although generally speaking it's not too bad even in 6 with the sort of generic uses I mostly write < 1312211108 123582 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since I was a child I have wanted to be a game author. So I like to think my ideas are nice. >:-) < 1312211143 691683 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Anyone up for Nomic? < 1312211150 793893 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: loopholes would be ok so long as the game doesn't reach a stalemate. < 1312211177 842620 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: And strings in switch() cases done using .hashCode() + comparisons internally. < 1312211178 614994 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I'm a player of Agora, and so are several other members of this channel < 1312211186 645815 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that's a sensible way to do it, isn't it? < 1312211186 720806 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually.. in the scenario example i gave.. < 1312211190 572229 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing laws wouldn't be able to refer to teams directly? < 1312211198 747405 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1312211211 275953 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: yeah thats the catch...! it's meant to reflect the real world in that sense < 1312211228 220225 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically impossible to word a restriction like that and have it work < 1312211238 453817 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :referring to teams indirectly is very easy < 1312211251 117705 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: Yes, and it'd be really quite verbose when done explicitly. < 1312211253 990038 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankenstein_veto < 1312211273 868584 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean by inderect? < 1312211299 848551 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because stupid quine stuff still seems pretty direct for the purpose of game rules. < 1312211318 423411 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way.. in my head this is an arcade game side scroller < 1312211325 889519 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is where i differ with this room :D < 1312211344 411449 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, i appreciate text games too.. and natural language games < 1312211346 810543 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: heh, that's an interesting juxtaposition < 1312211348 853942 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and whatever < 1312211357 20723 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be unsual as nomics go < 1312211382 242363 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: things like giving everyone on the other team a token, then killing everyone with a token < 1312211386 157712 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Since I was a child I have wanted to be a game author. So I like to think my ideas are nice. >:-)" wahahaha < 1312211408 118225 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: hmm.... oh gosh i see.. < 1312211419 28567 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahah.... < 1312211436 772769 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just giving /everyone/ a token, then dropping your own token before the enemies can react < 1312211439 115759 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the juxtaposition helps in that regard... since an arcade game is a finite system < 1312211440 324619 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then killing everyone with a token < 1312211448 339990 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, I think a finite system would work best < 1312211456 940265 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue would be to prevent the game feeling restrictive < 1312211464 584862 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1312211473 1056 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok maybe it wouldn't be finite < 1312211488 139685 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could spawn things (gets nervous) < 1312211513 172102 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean.. if you can declare that the ground kills people... theres really no limits on what you can declare < 1312211522 156679 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can certainly declare someone has a token < 1312211546 592722 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ermm.. yeah.. i will stop talking for a moment and chill < 1312211573 330337 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :When mexicans enter america, and get on welfare... this is what i believe is happening < 1312211579 383773 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this problem is probably unsolvable < 1312211581 392431 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you do solve it, the resulting game will be great < 1312211584 44883 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is my explanation, represented as a game < 1312211608 849030 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so who does usa have to blame for it < 1312211610 662407 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ya know < 1312211620 121820 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :they wrote their own friggen laws < 1312211690 941236 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie "anyone on the ground heals their health" < 1312211834 737937 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: i tried writing up a game based on pennymatching... it just wouldn't click right.. < 1312211842 218787 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would the laws be written as the side scroller is being played, or between rounds? < 1312211845 28320 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the answer is that games don't need to be resolved < 1312211857 523582 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: while being played.. well it could be any kind of game < 1312211910 625725 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :competitive Pokémon reminds me of pennymatching, but there's too much randomness in it to fit your criteria < 1312211938 708943 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :pennymatching is probably ok... i just haven't cracked how to make it work as a game < 1312211988 100333 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :my head is full of fallacies and misconceptions, and overanalysis... < 1312211993 355612 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats the other side of my brain < 1312211996 377961 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what can it do :-s < 1312212007 681839 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I already thought of how it would work as a game, I just dind't know it was already called penny matching. < 1312212008 768359 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to try them both in more balance < 1312212076 147784 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm writing up a lot of my ideas in an open office document tonight < 1312212124 267352 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well I guess it wouldn't be based on it exactly. < 1312212249 936753 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh pennymatching? i gave up on this idea but i'll spell it out.. A guy with a big slow sword vs a guy with a small fast sword. They choose to attack high or low. If they attack at the same height the big sword smashes the small sword. If they attack different heights the small sword makes contact first decisively. < 1312212308 612248 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :An amusing narrative to accompany an otherwise direct rendition of pennymatching. < 1312212339 626908 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of having a strategy game like stratego, where different units have different values. < 1312212354 751220 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION remembers getting a Stratego set as a gif
< 1312212356 618673 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gift < 1312212360 330023 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never played < 1312212367 243059 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: you probably need more than two options to make it work as a game < 1312212372 851713 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The penny matching would be used to decide who wins when units of the same type fight. < 1312212375 981147 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any even number would do < 1312212401 901647 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: i spent hours playing with the idea. im letting it go for now < 1312212414 482999 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1312212418 289830 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehehe < 1312212432 924740 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no, I just realised that if you become a game dev, you're probably going to have to learn C++ < 1312212455 1993 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless he makes Java or Flash games < 1312212460 787444 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or HTML5 + Javascript < 1312212482 56835 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i worked out the 16 possible rulesets for pennymatching, and wrote up a scenario for each one... < 1312212494 422721 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there were lots of problems.. and the whole idea was just as bad as the one i posted < 1312212513 887335 :ais523_!93bc6b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.107.114 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1312212525 186853 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it'd be much of a game by itself. < 1312212550 571923 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i started to abstract out the flags < 1312212568 317912 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's a nice thing to use wherever you want to prevent ties in a non-deterministic game. < 1312212577 138145 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a flag of whether the player has a big or a small sword... and whether the sword is sheathed.. and whether he is thrusting or swinging it < 1312212581 521680 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or pseudo-non-deterministic, anyway. < 1312212597 463422 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really did spend hours on it < 1312212608 1247 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i had to stop somewhere < 1312212644 133518 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realized then and there that Nash Games doesn't equate to Fun Games < 1312212669 567550 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't play a Nash Game for fun... you play it as part of life < 1312212713 358989 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :They can be incorporated etc < 1312212733 652210 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :But theres a reason that noone has released a book of Nash Games Children's Edition < 1312212801 467969 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok I went a bit far there.. They can be fun of course, or pennymatching wouldn't exist < 1312212828 919439 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in general it's not a motherlode of fun. < 1312212885 143199 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't actually activate my creative side when thinking it up. That aspect of my brain needs to come to the fore a bit more. < 1312214585 814935 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1312214871 573751 :nisstyre_!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info JOIN :#esoteric < 1312214901 33358 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1312214932 450643 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-12-34.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312214982 728677 :nisstyre_!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info QUIT :Client Quit < 1312215020 409559 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info JOIN :#esoteric < 1312215317 968486 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1312215371 654796 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1312215780 758173 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312215857 931233 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's tipping it down < 1312215931 613323 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod NICK :copumpkin < 1312215968 455439 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope Elliott doesn't get caught outside < 1312216091 865591 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so im replacing my personal wiki with an openoffice document with a contents page probably > 1312216173 672792 JOIN :#esoteric > 1312216223 875189 JOIN :#esoteric > 1312216268 938353 JOIN :#esoteric > 1312216308 984196 JOIN :#esoteric > 1312216354 60574 JOIN :#esoteric > 1312216394 107341 JOIN :#esoteric > 1312216429 165488 JOIN :#esoteric > 1312216474 205213 JOIN :#esoteric > 1312216519 274543 JOIN :#esoteric > 1312216564 332759 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312216564 642269 :glogbot!Gregor@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1312216567 630464 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1312216567 786268 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1312216600 102008 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor is already here < 1312216616 300644 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...dammit, that joke is a lie < 1312216644 871420 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :The joke, is in your pants. < 1312216653 429367 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1312216661 782718 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I screwed up that line < 1312216681 829932 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1312216708 251873 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org NICK :Guest63017 < 1312216784 954964 :TeruFSX!~quassel@pool-116-152.res.carleton.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1312216812 412382 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm feeling too tired to read my own typing. Maybe I am actually tired. < 1312216995 899453 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312218448 70746 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :regarding that Nomic like game I discussed earlier, there are parallels with the force. Since it is obvious noone can use the force to fly. < 1312218481 515146 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have to take objects like pillars and throw them as projectiles. < 1312218497 634534 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But by one of Newton's laws, I think it's the third one < 1312218512 915165 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They can throw a clump of air with equal mass to themselves downwards < 1312218514 74420 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't studied it in depth though. I was just guessing there. < 1312218516 12134 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And ascend < 1312218560 783838 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so like you mean, when luke was raising the spaceship out of the swamp, he could have been sitting on it < 1312218568 854400 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1312218571 802373 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ish < 1312218575 276081 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, no < 1312218576 1142 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats an interesting idea < 1312218579 901510 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that has a similar effect < 1312218595 48318 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He could do that force headstand < 1312218604 939516 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait i forgot < 1312218627 671367 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :he DID levitate ..............oh man i forgot i forgot.. he levitated C3p0 on the chair < 1312218639 229689 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a robot < 1312218643 483556 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence < 1312218650 716613 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What wasn't himself, though. < 1312218659 495708 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean.. a robot is inorganic < 1312218676 91221 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Levitating other people would be different, I think. < 1312218679 436377 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in the prequels, everyone was doing stupid force backflips everywhere < 1312218681 255175 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so he was able to raise c3po in the air on the chair < 1312218686 880331 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though it would mean two people could fly together. < 1312218705 715465 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't the whole fucking series rest on the idea that if you fall down a hole you can't fly out? < 1312218710 943695 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1312218731 557777 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :think of it.. luke had to cling for dear life at cloud city < 1312218756 524207 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe he had put on weight? < 1312218776 921519 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tihnk part of it is that you need deep concentration to do lift stuff. < 1312218797 244260 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :well whether the reasons are secret or not.. it is clear that you cannot fly < 1312218800 220591 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I guess he'd have enough time if he was jsut hanging there. < 1312218837 483906 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :even yoda can't fly < 1312218846 367147 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I haven't seen anyone just sailing through the air. < 1312218858 109583 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have been thinking about this for quite some time :P < 1312218924 467659 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :So he can make robots fly if they are sitting on a chair... he demonstrated that < 1312218950 690534 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably he could have made him float too... but he was trying to trick them into thinking c3po was a god < 1312218965 395984 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It worked, too < 1312219011 650569 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :its surely no coincedence.. this emphasis on levitating the spacecraft in the swamp... and then not being able to fly < 1312219064 105918 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember the Yoda says something about not being too reliant on force powers. < 1312219085 475724 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I havent seen number 3 yet < 1312219091 563469 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i know a lot about it < 1312219107 323481 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or someone who teahces force stuff said it. < 1312219147 146487 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think making a momentary jerk at something might be a lot easier than a sustained hovering. < 1312219155 470860 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence why they can jump usper high. < 1312219205 85841 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :anakin was super badass and could choke you.. < 1312219213 446128 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's simple: the force makes no sense! < 1312219221 321893 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems that you need a lot of power to choke someone with the force < 1312219221 974917 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe they have a feild around themselves that needs to be anchored to the ground or whatever. < 1312219241 749829 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :noone else ever used the force as a melee weapon < 1312219249 638752 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :except anakin < 1312219270 923315 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He was a dick < 1312219277 995830 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :he can punch you with the force < 1312219281 367552 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well the main three mvoies only have the two evil force users. < 1312219281 801950 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is the only one i think < 1312219294 502822 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :he can rain fists down on your ass < 1312219304 144340 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :WITH HIS MIND < 1312219305 541714 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that seems to depend how weak you are < 1312219363 862583 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yoda did move the X-Wing, but it wasn't really that far of a distance. < 1312219374 673591 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the difficulty of lift increases with fligth time. < 1312219377 711243 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: they can move inorganic objects < 1312219392 210615 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is the inorganicness < 1312219401 880499 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know which scene you mean though re: xwing < 1312219406 941221 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how they can't lift organics. < 1312219409 609899 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about Darth Vader squishing people's necks? < 1312219413 637812 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the whole topic man < 1312219415 441475 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one where it's lifted form the swamp. < 1312219438 897986 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: well.. he is applying pressure like a choke < 1312219465 640188 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :he can't actually control the guys neck.. only choke it < 1312219485 276504 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe its partial control cos anakin is so strong with the force < 1312219488 704804 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it isn't purly an issue of being able ot grab. < 1312219502 748750 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah true < 1312219513 625410 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might be that organic stuff damages too easily < 1312219517 888494 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1312219522 558988 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: well i derived the fact he could punch from the fact he could choke < 1312219528 931856 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :WIth an X-Wing, you jsut pull on the metal frame and there you go. < 1312219531 974284 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though he never used such punches < 1312219553 768534 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a human you need ot make sure not to dislucate the squishy innards. < 1312219564 760581 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: also the fact that everyone has midochlorions in them... they might not act directly on each other < 1312219592 578664 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1312219599 29376 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1312219636 38440 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Next time I can get to them, I'll have to check my Star Wars D20 books on the subject of what the force cana nd can't move around. < 1312219651 918142 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1312219663 330732 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :the dark side is more powerful, obviously < 1312219663 540502 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least when it comes to accomplishing violence < 1312219704 279788 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it's more flexible < 1312219712 618018 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason the light side is so much harder to use is that it's a tarpit < 1312219721 137558 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the dark side actually has useful primitives < 1312219732 755055 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you pay a price for the power of the dark side < 1312219739 386825 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you ever considered that all the force is just jedi mind tricks...persistent illusions of sights and sensations... < 1312219743 504050 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lack of referential transparency? < 1312219748 586082 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you? < 1312219760 725950 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean.. anakin was ok until he got lava-ized < 1312219796 813336 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1312220324 93556 :shachaf!~shachaf@204.109.63.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312223417 596614 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1312223796 149448 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1312223817 245795 :Sgeo!~quassel@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312224172 851163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea for a sequence S: S[1] = 1, S[n+1] = value someone who doesn't know about S would guess for S[n+1] given S[1]..S[n] < 1312224177 546560 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm < 1312224181 3157 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea for a sequence S: S[1] = 1, S[n+1] = value someone who doesn't know about S would guess for S[n+1] given S[1]..S[n], plus 1 < 1312224244 488371 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use e.g. http://koti.kapsi.fi/jpa/stuff/other/epsilon/zizzo.cgi to generate that programmatically < 1312224270 121733 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, it's already been thought of? < 1312224278 342161 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it a sequence guesser? < 1312224282 296637 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The latter < 1312224292 575203 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from http://www.ohjelmointiputka.net/kilpa.php?tunnus=alyot ) < 1312224325 657621 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i knew a haskell guy who wrote some kind of arithmetic sequence guesser < 1312224347 313775 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing is, after a while they'd probably guess the definition of S < 1312224352 490471 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it has to be higher by 1 even allowing for that < 1312224400 642690 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so its a sequence based on human nature? < 1312224413 615183 :Guest63017!Gregor@codu.org NICK :Gregor < 1312224424 236702 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you have the idea that lots of people would add numbers to it blind? < 1312224433 530794 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :or am i reading this all wrong? < 1312224457 613048 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: well, I think they'd stop being blind after a while < 1312224464 369634 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is also accounted for by the sequence < 1312224469 354068 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, yes, human nature is involved < 1312224492 544725 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i know what you should do with this idea < 1312224506 196500 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :that random anonymous text chat website < 1312224515 790699 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forget its name < 1312224520 566575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's unlikely to be a good use for it < 1312224528 30829 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could just show the sequence to random people and wait for a number < 1312224534 716719 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then build it up in that way < 1312224618 814014 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i presented a random human being with a "1" < 1312224626 481883 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are mulling it over < 1312224755 412337 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You: 1 Stranger: hi Stranger: asl? You: ok which number comes next, given: 1" -- didn't go so well < 1312224789 815414 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't think it would < 1312224800 137268 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :however... < 1312224878 885942 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :1,3,6,11 is the first terms i get by introspection < 1312224940 713143 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i have no obvious "would guess" for the next term < 1312224967 765405 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You: 1 Stranger: 2 You: 1,2 You: 1,2,? Stranger: 3,4 ?? You: 1,2,3,4,? Stranger: 1,2,3,4,5,6,??? You: 1,2,3,4,5,6,? " and not ended yet < 1312224977 751188 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: no! < 1312224983 888754 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :am i doing it wrong? < 1312224991 153920 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1312224999 822091 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. after he answers 2, you should do 1, 3 < 1312225036 226927 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'd go with 18 to your "1,3,6,11," -- it looks like the partial sums of primes. < 1312225048 418022 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1312225087 121273 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats fizzie for suggesting 1 is a prime -----###
< 1312225148 191650 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Well, I was mostly going for "2, 3, 5, ... e.g. primes as the differences between the numbers", but it wasn't as concisely stateable. < 1312225161 933219 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it leaves the starting point of 1 a bit arbitrary. < 1312225176 30966 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. < 1312225231 768572 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm OEIS sorted on relevance doesn't look good for this < 1312225234 302051 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I told them the line in question "without a username" to relieve some of the curiosity which i probably only imagined they had < 1312225250 231197 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it gives 1, 5, 20, 70, 240, 810, as the first result for "1") < 1312225251 400824 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know it could be googled but meh < 1312225287 948461 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :eek sorting by references gives the _prime numbers_ < 1312225345 909423 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok at least 1,3,6 gives the triangle numbers < 1312225393 550421 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: heh OEIS went with 19 for 1,3,6,11 :P < 1312225418 292673 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Fibonacci(n+3) - 2) < 1312225457 307052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so clearly the best next element is actually 20 < 1312225564 392334 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which gives 2^n + n, next element becomes 38 < 1312225592 126843 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OEIS gave up on 1,3,6,11,20,38 < 1312225603 654392 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly, it needs to contain /this/ sequence < 1312225609 264948 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and increment numbers in it on every pageview < 1312225617 448510 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1312225680 803091 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok if i accept OEIS's 1, 5, suggestion for a starting 1... < 1312225681 979841 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312225714 433068 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :eek. pascal's triangle read by rows. < 1312225717 179698 :hagb4rd!~hagb4rd@koln-4d0b670e.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312225744 220425 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, the 1,6,15 ... row < 1312225798 717784 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this time OEIS gave up on 1,6,16,32,385 < 1312225889 144683 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i suspect humans might not do much better than OEIS. < 1312226066 405329 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1312226240 27963 :hagb4rd!~hagb4rd@koln-4d0b670e.pool.mediaWays.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1312226255 778639 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Humans can understand lots of stuff like 1,2,3,15,16,17, OEIS can't < 1312226269 345796 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until someone adds it < 1312226296 145035 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you can add just any kind of triviality to OEIS, or can you? < 1312226303 156846 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can < 1312226323 688412 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's supposed to be a sequence of at least _some_ interest, i think < 1312226565 180410 :cheater_!~ubuntu@e179112092.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1312226694 398149 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(n-(n mod 3))*11+ n < 1312226925 696837 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let p d x = product [x, x-1 .. x-d+1] `div` product [1 .. d]; q x = sum [p d x | d <- [1..x]] in map q [0..] < 1312226926 764302 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [0,1,3,7,15,31,63,127,255,511,1023,2047,4095,8191,16383,32767,65535,131071,... < 1312226958 262964 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map (pred . (2^)) [0..] < 1312226959 563251 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [0,1,3,7,15,31,63,127,255,511,1023,2047,4095,8191,16383,32767,65535,131071,... < 1312227033 146128 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, so attempting the procedure with the simplified guess of "use simplest polynomial fit" just gives 2^n-1 < 1312227066 511141 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1312227072 368514 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...i guess that's a consequence of pascal's triangle, really < 1312227077 822892 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's kind-of neat, actually < 1312227121 485088 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or of the binomial expansion of (1+1)^n < 1312227135 967399 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, putting it like that makes it obvious < 1312227138 178041 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's still neat < 1312227222 395087 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :a better idea: let the next value in the sequence be the smallest value that no one on earth has guessed could be the next value :P < 1312227257 238206 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :1,negative infinity? < 1312227307 450404 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :*greater than the previous term < 1312227309 716274 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1312227323 577875 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note that i would guess negative infinity just to mess with you) < 1312227334 981363 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :negative infinity plus 1! < 1312227361 846472 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229131209.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1312227370 782213 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is convenientally equal to negative infinity < 1312227376 295238 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Esolang talk:Site support appears to be spam < 1312227431 384135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll check the recent changes in a bit < 1312227439 592674 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it'll be dealt with < 1312227457 629672 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :need to give elliott a chance to userfy it first :) < 1312227461 560947 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the danger here is that elliott might squat it be... right < 1312227479 652734 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, WRONG < 1312227572 41877 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's happened before < 1312227577 478042 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: "In Luigi, the left hand side of a production rule is not allowed to be the subset of any other. This makes Luigi deterministic." < 1312227582 692387 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312227584 685825 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wrong < 1312227600 41407 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still in user section, it can be changed < 1312227629 174253 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i would think you'd have trouble whenever they can overlap, anyhow. < 1312227647 563868 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's what I thought < 1312227682 558072 :cheater__!~ubuntu@e179115183.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1312227737 16728 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sighs, wondering if I would understand my own ideas better if I had learned Haskell yet. < 1312227753 389673 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :how's the haskell going? < 1312227761 352863 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't got back to it yet < 1312227818 961721 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I am intrinsically about game creation.. and Haskell would only serve that end for me in some level < 1312227849 57404 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there are games in haskell, at least. < 1312227852 101148 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229131209.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1312227887 148392 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am basically someone who would look down the nose at Lua because it would deny me the pleasure of making my own embedded scripting language. < 1312227889 871885 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229064186.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1312227925 224322 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone have any idea if Luigi is Turing Complete? < 1312227926 449107 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it wouldn't add any value of its own. < 1312227930 548442 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lua is possibly the only language with a large amount of reverse library support < 1312227948 417792 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reverse library? < 1312227953 863248 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that, it doesn't have an amazing number of libraries, but it's embedded in an amazing number of different contexts that will be able to supply their own relevant routines < 1312227964 783386 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: i was thinking about that. i think you can do a CA in it... < 1312228007 679312 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's say you follow the convention of using disjoint alphabets for odd and even positions < 1312228045 429357 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can easily make something resembling a 1d margolus rule, i think < 1312228055 787800 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :while still being deterministic < 1312228067 150017 :cheater__!~ubuntu@e179115183.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1312228114 460839 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or put a different way, each CA cell is represented by _two_ luigi letters, one from each subalphabet. < 1312228165 376580 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 0010 would be represented something like aAaAbBaA < 1312228177 378280 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :with some marker at the end < 1312228184 96620 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would rather use (looks up it's name) ORK than Lua as a scripting language for a game. < 1312228227 535211 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait this doesn't work that way < 1312228242 298184 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :need to keep the margolus idea < 1312228277 644486 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, each cell would interact with a different neigbor on odd and even generations < 1312228346 39040 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :say a rewriting rule was Aa -> aB, it would only apply when the left cell was in the "upper case" state, and would turn it into lower case, and opposite for the right cell < 1312228409 254226 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the end markers would have rules to switch the case of an otherwise inert cell. as well as possibly growing the word. < 1312228412 989033 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Isn't the traditional way to do deterministic stuff on a system like this just to keep a unique marker somewhere, and then apply only production rules that contain the marker and some neighbors, so you're guaranteed to only ever apply the rule in a single place? Sounds like a scheme like that, with a marker you keep moving from front to back (and encode some state in what the marker is) should work for a BCT implementation. (With a few more unique symbo < 1312228413 194259 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls at the beginning and end of the string.) < 1312228441 674438 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that's basically encoding a Turing machine in rewrite rules < 1312228443 120857 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: oh hm right that's the TM way. i was sort of fixated on doing something parallel. < 1312228446 126482 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, it is pretty standard < 1312228463 905077 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Oh, you can be honest, I won't feel hurt: just say "the boring way". < 1312228490 214898 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :my idea has the "advantage" that every cell can get touched by some rule each generation < 1312228519 887990 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i honestly forgot about it :P < 1312228551 886831 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312228572 3351 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: ok fizzie's method pretty obviously works to encode a TM rather directly. < 1312228625 738825 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That 1D CA in "parallel" sounds intuitively speaking doable too. < 1312228662 346670 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i would think so < 1312228698 797721 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Encoding a TM directly would be the way that would be most obvious to someone who knows what turing-completeless is but hasn't much experience trying to prove it < 1312228706 658949 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or seen anyone ever try to prove it < 1312228713 71625 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still a possible < 1312228714 58287 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :way < 1312228714 637581 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1312228741 60971 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sometimes it _is_ the simplest way < 1312228956 667262 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1312229304 690168 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A0N1->N1B1; A0N0->N1B1; N0A1->C0A1; N1A1->C1N1; N0B0->A0N1; N1B0->A1N1; B1N0->N1B0; B1N1->N1B1; N0C0->B0C1; N1C0->B1N1; C1N0->N1H0; C1N1->N1H1 < 1312229318 739778 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That will simulate the example Turing Machine on the Wikipedia page < 1312229329 101007 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :When converted to Luigi notation < 1312229337 849142 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would think the most obvious way to make things deterministic would be to just check shorter rules first. < 1312229361 120213 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but restrictions are fun < 1312229362 856253 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1312229387 600041 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: actually that doesn't work with the overlapping ones < 1312229408 434595 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that dones't, by itself, remove the ambiguity of when sch alterations should be applied. < 1312229421 114780 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't they supposed to be in paralel too < 1312229421 319606 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things can overlap without being subsets, though. < 1312229435 177597 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, checking them sequentially is hilariously against the point < 1312229451 379268 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :(reads about turing machines) in the deterministic vs non-deterministic argument I have raised hte point in the past that a non-deterministic universe could emulate a deterministic one.. < 1312229460 562610 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :;01ABCH;N0N0N0N0N0N0N0N0N0N0N0N0A0N0N0N0N0N0N0N0N0N0N0N0;A0N1;N1B1;A0N0;N1B1;N0A1;C0A1;N1A1;C1N1;N0B0;A0N1;N1B0;A1N1;B1N0;N1B0;B1N1;N1B1;N0C0;B0C1;N1C0;B1N1;C1N0;N1H0;C1N1;N1H1 < 1312229461 863853 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :this may be a vice versa thing, i forget < 1312229473 833439 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1312229487 401610 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just found a major restriction in the Turing Machine emulation < 1312229487 678524 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither wba or bac are subsets of the other, but they have subsets that match, so wabc would be a problem. < 1312229492 307377 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :finite initialisation < 1312229496 962710 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: well it depends on whether your non-deterministic universe can make reliable components, i assume < 1312229515 483810 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I can freely pretend to have no free will :> < 1312229526 96185 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that is.. i cannot say that for sure!! < 1312229546 463814 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I don't think direct emulation of a Turing Machine works < 1312229571 307727 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :You cannot prove my determinism is not a choice < 1312229573 332988 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1312229600 292834 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's philosophy, not computer science. < 1312229608 516040 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know < 1312229615 771508 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: um ordinary TMs just need finite initialization < 1312229649 417584 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They operate on an infinite tape < 1312229655 205608 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1312229670 511614 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: expanding a tape with rewriting is not hard < 1312229681 732425 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, hmm < 1312229721 178482 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :;01ABCEH;EN0A0N0E;A0N1;N1B1;A0N0;N1B1;N0A1;C0A1;N1A1;C1N1;N0B0;A0N1;N1B0;A1N1;B1N0;N1B0;B1N1;N1B1;N0C0;B0C1;N1C0;B1N1;C1N0;N1H0;C1N1;N1H1;E;N0; < 1312229736 187744 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, that expands the tape quicker than it can be accessed < 1312229755 435592 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which isn't the most memory efficient of techniques, but we're dealing theoretically here < 1312229775 623243 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-31-252.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a way to implement stacks in it? < 1312229788 527886 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need to expand unless the tape head is going into unitialized territory < 1312229805 725662 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but this is easier and for a proof just as good < 1312229816 969612 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: almost certainly, but not trivially < 1312229943 240935 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well two stacks, one at each end pointing inwards, would seem pretty trivial < 1312230005 936671 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :for more, you get to move information around a lot < 1312230313 248496 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: also, you can implement a stack in any thing TC. just not necessarily easily. :P < 1312230323 675641 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*anything < 1312230346 89935 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1312230353 795568 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :BCT is gonna take a bit of work, i'd say < 1312230366 148302 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brainfuck even more < 1312230376 536571 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, no? < 1312230388 642799 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, in my own conversation < 1312230395 812517 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't mind me < 1312230398 593592 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pretty sure a stack in brainfuck is easier than in BCT :P < 1312230437 287847 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking it'd be pretty hard to implement anything much in Luigi < 1312230458 340939 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well brainfuck is easy to compile to a TM, i think, and then to Luigi. < 1312230478 13851 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from IO < 1312230517 648744 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm actually it'll be a lot of rules if the cell size is big < 1312230529 755861 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :boolfuck, though, shouldn't be too hard < 1312230553 548108 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :P′′ is Turing Complete with a cell size of three, possibly two, I believe < 1312230572 57577 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you could do BF more directly with a unary representation of cells < 1312230587 854389 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: um is this a known result? i was sort of thinking about doing it with 3 < 1312230604 173428 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait you said cell _size_, never mind. < 1312230620 623873 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cell size two is just boolfuck, which is TC, yes < 1312230622 4610 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cell size is a lot harder than tape length in Luigi < 1312230635 840971 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: not if you do it with unary, i think < 1312230655 613407 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a possibility, but not one I'm going to look into tonight < 1312230686 678971 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: or even binary might not be too hard, actually, i've had some thoughts about /// and this would be similar < 1312230732 869752 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you are bored, have a look at that, then. I'm going to bed now < 1312230738 490371 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Quit: Goodnight! < 1312230745 819336 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is not _that_ bored :P
< 1312230969 947438 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312231064 554075 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1312231172 86840 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312231186 815965 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, okay, I changed my mind < 1312231206 143012 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312231209 120410 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :always get your full eight minutes of sleep < 1312231219 862983 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back to civilisation /o/ < 1312231220 339658 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You have 22 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. < 1312231220 724007 :myndzi\!myndzi@c-24-22-176-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :                             | < 1312231220 928731 :myndzi\!myndzi@c-24-22-176-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :                            /| < 1312231226 590695 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit lambdabot. < 1312231231 677771 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Twenty... < 1312231232 978583 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Popular guy, PH < 1312231268 910000 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell elliott FFS, I've told you already that lambdabot breaks if there are more than 10 or so. < 1312231269 342860 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1312231284 13144 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a time in which im especially glad not to be popular < 1312231366 329831 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell elliott I hope you still have the scrollback for the last 14 of those. < 1312231366 620596 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1312231398 205697 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo... didn't... know... that... < 1312231402 884799 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... < 1312231414 975147 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :his mind is going, he can feel it < 1312231421 766155 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1312231428 371133 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speak of the devil. < 1312231437 555194 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i was going to say < 1312231446 192090 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, _i_ was going to say it < 1312231455 878761 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1312231456 83693 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. < 1312231457 145585 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, from PH Reads Logs To Offset Suicide: 03:00:18: Sgeo: The movie.) < 1312231471 515255 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This year's blockbuster! < 1312231478 337773 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:40:20: Phantom_Hoover: You have 22 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. < 1312231480 782676 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDDDDdddddddddddddddddddd < 1312231513 349206 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Join Sgeo as he goes on a voyage of discovery to find himself and also that Narnia and Alice in Wonderland were written by different people. < 1312231525 787002 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to move Luigi from my user space now < 1312231531 444108 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want an itidus movie too < 1312231543 597531 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I used to get mixed up with CS Lewis and Lewis Carrol < 1312231546 912163 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alice in Wondernarnia < 1312231549 731205 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, did it get even better in the week I was gone? < 1312231553 685604 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*week and a half < 1312231600 706717 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't been keeping track, but he's still itidus20 < 1312231637 18295 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1312231641 117049 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok.. hold on < 1312231655 677100 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll hook you up < 1312231681 170707 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :one time he put clothes and hair on an elliott in a hole drawn by elliott < 1312231731 162726 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, pics or it didn't happen. < 1312231731 595811 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzMEQlK1EBA < 1312231743 308514 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:22:14: Hofstadter's too talky < 1312231743 512270 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :also he says nothing interesting < 1312231752 205362 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:26:00: I always feel like the odd one out because I'm a computer scientist but not a mystic :D < 1312231752 561395 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-44.elisa.ee QUIT :Quit: ramadan < 1312231753 333614 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite so < 1312231754 772316 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: what, in here? < 1312231780 626940 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20, no, I mean of the elliott thing. < 1312231807 969251 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No, not here, generally. Among perl programmers, mostly :D < 1312231824 20163 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: 05:37:27: elliott_: i did an edit of it: http://oi51.tinypic.com/34h0z.jpg < 1312231845 989239 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, it's official, Luigi is an esoteric programming language < 1312231854 718574 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :PERL = Programmable Eschatology from Religious Loons < 1312231855 439649 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, that's... wow. < 1312231866 269956 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :amazing < 1312231932 250411 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: the artefacts are my fault mind you < 1312231963 591725 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So elliott plays baseball and is a Saiyan? < 1312231972 443203 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1312231991 600823 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other news, the Guide claims that Edinburgh is full of giant seagulls. < 1312231993 580324 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is in line with my conception of him < 1312232013 227316 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Quick, make some giant french fries! < 1312232013 879545 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am sceptical of this claim, but I do not know how big a normal seagull is. < 1312232028 1662 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which Guide. < 1312232038 151589 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Guardian one. < 1312232042 755848 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the minimum number of arbitrarily large cells needed for this to be true? It obviously isn't the case with one. --Graue 15:35, 9 Jun 2005 (GMT) < 1312232042 960304 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theoretically, 2 cells (cf Minsky machine); Frank Faase has a proof using 5 cells. --Chris Pressey 18:33, 9 Jun 2005 (GMT) < 1312232049 598164 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: go correct chris about two cells < 1312232140 592624 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: oko explains integration with infinite bounds < 1312232148 188707 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:03:22: the bounds are infinite however. < 1312232148 394049 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:03:26: ..... < 1312232148 394224 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:03:43: well, true, you need a big calculator < 1312232151 286547 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of #esoteric < 1312232151 719989 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/07/how-an-argument-with-hawking-suggested-the-universe-is-a-hologram.ars < 1312232173 599767 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well i haven't finished showing that 3 are sufficient yet... < 1312232188 805299 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I reckon four wouldn't be too difficult < 1312232197 706965 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :NihilistDandy: how appropriate, speaking of #esoteric *in* #esoteric < 1312232205 211047 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: SO META < 1312232208 643625 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's what I mean, two almost certainly aren't, right? < 1312232213 934727 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because bf doesn't have the same operations as minsky machines < 1312232216 379730 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, it's the least fixed point of off-topicness. < 1312232250 441270 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it seems unlikely, because every time you exit a loop you have one cell 0, so it's hard not to clobber something < 1312232257 839117 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right < 1312232267 246313 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'm just saying that "theoretically, two (cf minsky)" doesn't hold < 1312232270 65065 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1312232274 18281 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1312232410 383181 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does Polish have to look so much like polish? < 1312232444 338324 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Polish as in the nationality of someone from Poland, polish as in make shiny < 1312232496 172144 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because English is stupid < 1312232503 14557 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe Poles are just shiny < 1312232512 269146 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence, pole-ish < 1312232544 992865 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :poleish < 1312232592 538260 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: btw when trying to use the proof that 2 registers for a minsky machine suffices, and merging the machine state into the same BF cell as the product of prime power register, it all very similar to fractran < 1312232610 105815 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: :D < 1312232610 815040 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*all becomes < 1312232635 782395 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :to such a degree that it looks simplest to just compile fractran to BF < 1312232636 628284 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, these polish puns are neither bad or good enough to be funny < 1312232860 414983 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, ever since I noticed a Polish market somewhere I have been meaning to go there and ask for some really obscure type of polish. < 1312232876 106884 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doo eet < 1312232954 783543 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Excuse me, I'm looking for some Kiwi Polish < 1312232975 672239 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :get your kiwis all nice and shiny < 1312232978 460757 :pingveno!~pingveno@c-98-246-133-8.hsd1.or.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1312233021 502840 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew a Kiwi Polish girl once :D < 1312233118 984649 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1312233176 19211 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:52:53: Is there a reliable means of counting characters in a Unicode string? < 1312233176 221616 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:53:13: Code points aren't characters, so even UTF-32 is variable-width wrt characters. :( < 1312233176 221877 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :define character < 1312233219 677516 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-222-167.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I do believe he's meaning "glyph". < 1312233259 26161 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I think he means grapheme. < 1312233284 950304 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he means printing character < 1312233287 576690 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-222-167.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, "glyph". < 1312233297 448426 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I knew a Kiwi Polish girl once :D < 1312233302 489223 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was she nice and shiny? < 1312233367 688615 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1312233367 967017 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, but I'd never seen such black boots in my life. < 1312233398 587226 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1312233454 866980 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-12-34.tn.glocalnet.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312233681 828697 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what would be interesting? < 1312233696 793977 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Brainfuck or Lazy K or something Rubik's Cube solver < 1312233735 559279 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, $algorithm in $language is normally not terribly interesting. < 1312233754 129362 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, how about the reverse < 1312233765 511390 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Brainfuck solver in a Rubk's Cube < 1312233771 577956 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1312233781 50824 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does one solve brainfuck < 1312233783 687117 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a tricky one, Taneb is < 1312233791 196664 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are Turing-equivalent decision problems... < 1312233879 786987 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any languages based on rubik's cubes < 1312233934 744110 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy, well, I don't understand how it actually /works/, but the existence of solutions to polynomials with n variables is Turing-equivalent. < 1312233948 256820 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1312233960 816963 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So perhaps there's something similar with Rubik's cube. < 1312233962 990083 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Some subsets of group theory could reasonably be said to be "based on Rubik's cubes" < 1312234150 557450 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, goodnight for real now < 1312234164 688118 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Quit: or is it...? Tune in next week to find out! < 1312234482 881235 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, the word problem for groups is undecidable, so most likely TC... < 1312234486 641081 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1312234585 746969 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course rubik's cube itself is finite, so pretty decidable i should think < 1312234666 331823 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nxnxn, of course. < 1312234729 250235 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :rubik's hypercube < 1312234730 240139 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: _integer_ solutions, mind you. it's decidable for reals, and still open for rationals (somewhat recently discussed in godel's lost letter) < 1312234756 826232 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinitely big rubiks' cube < 1312234757 662965 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :discuss < 1312234781 832689 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, infinite from a particular corner, or along all sides? < 1312234791 96085 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :all sides < 1312234794 17180 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone should make a physical puzzle whose symmetry group was the monster < 1312234805 540547 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can still do all the turns, ofc < 1312234846 375279 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is < 1312235606 340804 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.35 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1312236104 622944 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1312236251 598523 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1312236362 824740 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh what, the Humble Bundle now includes /another/ game? < 1312236366 152458 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :FINE YOU GUYS I'LL BUY IT OK < 1312237005 287495 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1312237612 330212 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312238404 80263 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FINE < 1312238575 384070 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DON'T THINK WE DESERVE TO BE FINED < 1312238580 460591 :myndzi\!myndzi@c-24-22-176-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312238614 675436 :myndzi!myndzi@c-24-22-176-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312238726 894966 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, YES YOU DO < 1312238806 513393 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU CANNOT PROVE IT < 1312241835 171459 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Paradoxes make physicists happy." < 1312242138 716243 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20, they do? < 1312242198 352453 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so someone found an exploit in some apple laptops.. which means the battery can be killed < 1312242229 251789 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty bad.... < 1312242231 437359 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the physicists are overjoyed? < 1312242242 719176 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :champagne corks < 1312242280 447561 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :bottoms up you old bastards < 1312242294 288698 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :putting on the ritz < 1312242476 806729 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This film will be the best. < 1312242496 648714 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20, struggling young artist and renaissance man... < 1312242532 878191 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can tie in with Sgeo: the Movie! < 1312242540 123731 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But who would be cast as who... < 1312242595 213081 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I would played by David Tennant, as the villain trying to murder KT-AT.) < 1312242613 814876 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott can be Christopher Eccleston, because they're both from the North. < 1312242631 611529 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not nearly camp enough. < 1312242663 98073 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Christopher Eccleston is camp? < 1312242675 262340 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's pretty much what he's famous for as the Doctor, yes. < 1312242685 74865 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's sort of a... mild camp. < 1312242686 938857 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except amplified. < 1312242702 903107 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like turning down your speakers really low, playing something, recording it, and then amplifying that. < 1312242705 256950 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is logical. < 1312242737 747359 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, Vorpal would be played by the guy who played Wallander because that's the closest I get to naming a Swedish actor. < 1312242803 381509 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey would obviously be played by Ian McKellen. < 1312242828 110874 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, also who else is famous, and actor and From the North? < 1312242835 855065 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not from the North, that's entirely different.) < 1312242863 56708 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1312242872 124407 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Me. < 1312242878 567124 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*an actor < 1312242882 17217 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Me. < 1312242887 705912 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal can be played by Vorpal because nobody else can be that boring. < 1312242896 861455 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, have you *seen* Wallander? < 1312242899 474419 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :We will coerce him to with the EVIL POWERS of... money, because that's all he's boring enough to fall for. < 1312242926 447965 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's impossible, such is the boredom.) < 1312242941 800141 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/j54n4/if_plants_are_constantly_exposed_to_the_sun_why/ < 1312242947 319202 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do I read /r/AskScience. < 1312243058 744147 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-222-167.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you like stupid questions?