s for rendering years ago < 1311989336 468765 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Play Minecraft for free until August 14th! < 1311989336 689579 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Create a key below and then apply it to your Minecraft account by clicking the red link." < 1311989338 684091 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "DHTML" doesn't scale at all < 1311989340 543746 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just changed their background colors < 1311989341 584057 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because DOM = shit < 1311989355 506698 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it actually worked, and faster than using Excel for rendering < 1311989363 771363 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1311989366 246383 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(look, I hadn't heard of proper programming languages back then) < 1311989371 532991 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote it actually worked, and faster than using Excel for rendering < 1311989372 868639 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :550) it actually worked, and faster than using Excel for rendering < 1311989379 452454 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was also possibly the only program ever to be written in Microsoft JScript < 1311989387 110262 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I found the documentation for that lying around < 1311989395 787601 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, as opposed to javascript? < 1311989399 176287 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :what were the differences < 1311989401 414837 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it turned out to be almost valid JavaScript too, I only had to change a few lines to get it working in Firefox < 1311989421 761035 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly, that document.x was equivalent to document.getElementById("x") in JScript < 1311989428 305675 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1311989432 431031 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I hope they've fixed that now, it's almost as bad as PHP's register_globals) < 1311989446 441540 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: to expand on what I said about @ and the internet: as far as I'm concerned, if the Internet isn't universally recognised as a human right in a few years, something went wrong; and internet outages will, or at least should be, considered as serious as power outages < 1311989460 228433 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps moreso, considering how common laptops are < 1311989463 622443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can avoiding the Internet be a human right too? < 1311989477 814700 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: probably, but is avoiding taxes? < 1311989485 655392 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can be a hermit if you want, but you'll still have to pay 'em < 1311989491 50570 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you might even need to fill out a form on the internet < 1311989492 909633 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure of the relevant < 1311989495 266153 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*relevance < 1311989503 488521 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, that is hard for old people who never used computers < 1311989506 913251 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's relevant because you might have to use the internet < 1311989508 483265 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect the tax office will for at least the next 3/4 decades allow forms to be done by post < 1311989508 535482 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that is realistic thus < 1311989515 995359 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :until many years into the future < 1311989517 887015 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no it isn't, teaching people how to use computers is easy, teaching them how to use Windows is hard < 1311989526 213787 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, fair enough < 1311989533 172941 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, most people are bad at teaching them Windows < 1311989537 436523 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and practically the definition of old people involves them dying soon anyway :-P < 1311989544 160044 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and? < 1311989547 948107 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, my blind grandmother would have problems with any computer though < 1311989548 493098 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: it'll be much more than 30/40 years into the future before the government can be persuaded to not mandate Windows for everything computer-related they do < 1311989548 724054 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: would it be a human rights violation if they stopped doing so? < 1311989555 64756 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the internet was considered a right < 1311989559 129145 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: possibly, depending on the circumstances < 1311989571 794250 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? why isn't avoiding post a human right? < 1311989575 281244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something being considered a right doesn't necessarily mean that you can assume that people will exercise that righgt < 1311989578 76649 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*right < 1311989583 447519 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be like feeding children only if they played < 1311989596 351435 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed < 1311989596 765208 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and saying it wasn't a violation of human rights because playing is a human right for children < 1311989605 946494 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why isn't avoiding post a human right? < 1311989625 279196 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, since when is getting post a human right < 1311989636 299346 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :internationally I mean < 1311989637 144794 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that in the UK, you don't have to do tax returns at all unless there's something complex about your tax situation < 1311989644 398356 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just have to fill in a form when you get a job or change jobs < 1311989650 79668 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hand it to your employer < 1311989657 330131 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: we're talking about forms < 1311989664 394827 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I wasn't talking about forms just for taxes < 1311989680 118078 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, I have surprisingly few forms to fill in, overall < 1311989690 360959 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you still have to fill them in, and send them via post, right? < 1311989697 473800 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you inform the government of your tax deductions? < 1311989697 807945 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, why isn't avoiding post a human right? < 1311989703 41029 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know this, because I use pencil and paper sufficiently rarely that whenever I fill in a paper form, I first have to remember how to use a pen < 1311989735 67924 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if ais523 is operating this conversation by replying to every message up until I make my actual point, and then repeating
< 1311989746 764077 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: there are very few tax deductions in the UK; the main one is for donations to charity, and you let the charity know tax details and they claim the deduction on your behalf < 1311989773 594074 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently < 1311989777 462195 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh...that's not a good way to attract business < 1311989781 169228 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I'm trying to think of a situation in which post is actually necessary < 1311989791 160104 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: tax deductions for business exist, and there are a lot more of them < 1311989791 791546 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :taxes r bad gold is good < 1311989800 857004 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a company can't write off their expenses, what reason do they have not to move operations to the netherlands... < 1311989801 91164 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, how do you send in forms? < 1311989805 203255 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's the business that's concerned with them, not the people who interact with them < 1311989805 420669 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why can't avoiding that be a human right? < 1311989806 171444 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1311989813 618824 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :so as a business owner < 1311989817 971182 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to submit returns? < 1311989818 553384 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: the main form I have to fill out atm is the university registration form < 1311989824 538187 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which can be done over the internet or in person < 1311989850 886271 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to think of something absolutely unavoidable, legally, for living in the UK
< 1311989853 838939 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, in person is how the majority of forms I fill in work out < 1311989858 428815 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can ask why avoiding that shouldn't be a human right < 1311989873 130143 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :avoiding paperwork is the stupidest idea for a human right i've ever heard < 1311989897 371603 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: nah, paperwork is horrible, that's a decent idea < 1311989910 396089 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :avoiding the internet is the stupidest one I've heard < 1311989926 964442 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: the student finances form was legally unavoidable, but that one I /didn't/ do by hand, I went to the education office and gave them the form in person < 1311989941 484736 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but you're talking to someone who thinks that there is no right to convenience < 1311989964 426857 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I suspect you don't think there's a right to many things that there are rights for. < 1311989967 39456 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it was perfectly avoidable, just don't be a student < 1311989970 10961 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they were a little surprised that I'd bothered, but the post service is a bit unreliable here < 1311989971 646959 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: well, OK < 1311989986 245508 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my parents suggested the census is possibly post- and Internet-only, I have to look that one up < 1311989993 663174 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :furthermore, there is no such thing as unalienable rights... < 1311989998 811711 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: basically as far as I'm concerned, a right to avoid the internet is unnecessary; it's already the easiest way, by far, to do things, and if you want to be stubborn I don't really think society has a right to make your crusade easy < 1311990004 810331 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can always become a hermit, I suppose < 1311990005 171896 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :any right can be taken away in the wrong situation < 1311990062 894714 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're probably right that there are things others consider human rights that i don't < 1311990088 991241 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. are you planning to try and gain political power anywhere, and if so, where? < 1311990091 7957 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when? < 1311990128 255264 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but if i do, i'll make sure you don't hear about it < 1311990153 777655 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so voting against you is another right you don't believe in < 1311990175 687801 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh, it's hard to find the exact rules for census replies, as they aren't in law; there are just laws allowing the rules to be made (by the Chancellor of the Exchequer with parlimentary approval) < 1311990187 426133 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, if i'm gonna get anything worthwhile done, i might as well dispatch with democracy right off the bat < 1311990190 974021 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This all reminds me that the Special Rapporteur to the UN officially recommended that Internet access be considered a basic human right. < 1311990193 963596 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia implies that it was Internet-or-post only, though < 1311990213 226468 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: governments will find loopholes in that < 1311990225 974777 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like only allowing access to government approved websites at libraries < 1311990253 299863 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: umm, I was just talking about that < 1311990258 682429 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Of course, but it is still kinda cool that *something* has made it into the lore of a group that's that high-profile. < 1311990263 498204 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: see, the thing is, I don't even know that you're joking. < 1311990266 90926 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: that's how all this started < 1311990268 825894 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not actually very useful. :P < 1311990273 610546 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I was talking about the internet being a right < 1311990275 735366 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Ah, was briefly away. < 1311990280 931844 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really care about a gesture like that that will be completely ignored < 1311990282 378830 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: aha, I found a loophole: people who don't have addresses (like the homeless and travelers) were given the forms by hand, and handed them back in person < 1311990284 936420 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC France recognised the internet as a right though < 1311990286 314262 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Finland are? < 1311990287 567795 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget < 1311990299 2192 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@c-24-9-98-117.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311990299 978863 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they're just not hermit enough < 1311990311 625680 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, dying is the easiest way to avoid forms < 1311990318 734810 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: if i become dictator of a small island nation, i will wholeheartedly support your right not to live there. < 1311990381 515949 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, 2011 was the first year you even could do the census online < 1311990409 184799 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I conclude that the requirement to respond to official posted documents, maybe including reply by prepaid post, is incurred by having your own address < 1311990418 351773 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :notably, with multiple people in a house, only one of them has to reply to the census < 1311990423 744 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :listing the information of the others < 1311990611 414044 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :edit: Actually, what would be best is to tell yourself to buy Cisco and sell it at the height of the dot-com bubble. Then use the proceeds to buy Apple immediately. You'd be looking well over a 1,000,000% return there. < 1311990615 472827 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION writes down
< 1311990618 358599 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : actually, dying is the easiest way to avoid forms < 1311990623 334378 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :disappointed nobody addquoted this < 1311990638 752553 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, it isn't very funny < 1311990645 202370 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dying's easy, eh? < 1311990657 790045 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: said Vorpal < 1311990727 905357 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I was going to respond to it, but it's too simple to be very entertaining. :P < 1311990769 430963 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Honestly, I'm way less afraid of death than I am of others I know dying. < 1311990800 117079 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like meeting people that are significantly older than me because I have a reasonable assurance that they'll be dead within my lifetime. < 1311990841 465131 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"There tends to be a pretty direct correspondence between "GHC features" and "papers listing SPJ as an author"." < 1311990853 400981 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I take it you dislike meeting your parents < 1311990855 376293 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: The man is a machine. < 1311990867 770728 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I never technically met them. < 1311990873 922223 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because of how babies' memories work. < 1311990899 871566 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also because of how mating works. < 1311990909 173876 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :poor babies < 1311990912 168277 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :poor mating < 1311990985 50335 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1311991010 645781 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1311991048 724177 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :NB: My parents aren't dead or missing. They're right here in the room with me at the moment. < 1311991055 338806 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Thought I'd clarify.) < 1311991065 101439 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi evincar's parents < 1311991078 472195 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're currently watching a Netflix progress bar. < 1311991085 694878 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :exciting < 1311991100 94748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why'd you even need to pay for movies if the progress bar is that interesting? < 1311991129 24194 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :to get the progress bar of course < 1311991160 153552 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Beats me. The damn thing doesn't even move very fast. You could replace it with a photo of said bar, stuck terminally at just over 50% to give the illusion of progress. < 1311991177 846520 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: there is some logic to that < 1311991189 607251 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :would videoing the progress bar and sending the video to someone else count as movie piracy? < 1311991256 289736 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229161172.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1311991283 464558 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1311991438 89908 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Internet should not be considered a basic right. A lot of people don't even know much about internet. < 1311991477 269312 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Free speech should not be considered a basic right. A lot of people don't even know about free speech. < 1311991499 815093 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL should not be considered a basic right. A lot of people don't even know about INTERCAL. < 1311991534 814431 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No free speech should be considered. Whether or not you know about it is not the point. I was simply mentioning it. INTERCAL is not a basic right either. However, note that some thing might be "derived" rights I suppose in certain circumstances, maybe..... < 1311991690 494817 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1311991782 510515 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: My point is that many people not knowing (much) about a right isn't justification for not considering it a right. < 1311991790 864481 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In case that wasn't obvious. < 1311991815 630677 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I actually happen to agree with you. Free speech is a right. < 1311991821 68029 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if people don't know < 1311991831 77260 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, the internet helps promote globalism and fight xenophobia, which is a primary tool in causing unnecessary wars. < 1311991834 703291 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If some people don't want free speech they can be quiet < 1311992086 13301 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1311992129 145769 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229161009.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1311992134 512592 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311992136 466112 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer < 1311992136 863172 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I do agree that internet can help good thing, so can other thing; people can be have a computer, if they have computer, can get internet connection, etc. However, in my opinion it should not be considered a *basic* right. < 1311992242 879004 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1311992467 41968 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1311992569 709763 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311992655 616559 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1311992814 529839 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: So I finally decided to do the obvious and pursue a doctorate in computer science. < 1311992836 709414 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I'm pursuing it too, and think I have something of a head start < 1311992845 489368 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if you were one of the people who was privy to my school troubles a few months back. < 1311992848 682591 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope there's enough for all of us when we catch it < 1311992856 920176 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I don't remember that, so I guess I wasn't < 1311992860 229263 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that I have a bad memory < 1311992878 108836 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh. Long story short, school sucks as usual for people like me. < 1311992945 426366 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what nationality are you? and what do you mean by "school"? the word refers to slightly different educational institutions in different countries < 1311992957 342855 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically, the fact that I'm skilled and consequently have a huge sense of entitlement, I'm a maverick who can't stand working with others, I don't care about classes that don't teach me anything, etc., etc. < 1311992976 966815 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, American, college. Rochester Institute of Technology, specifically. < 1311992986 874142 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm entering my fourth year. < 1311993000 180096 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there anyone who self-identifies as a maverick who isn't a huge egotist, i ask this devoid of any context < 1311993016 248656 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I'm not sure < 1311993032 28614 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although people who self-identify as mavericks are split upon whether they believe themselevs to be huge egotists, I imagine < 1311993034 847581 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*themselves < 1311993081 401424 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311993106 609638 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I am a huge egotist, but I'm also demonstrably a maverick. I really don't work well with others and I don't think like most of the people around me. < 1311993144 989218 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll need to work with others occasionally even in a PhD < 1311993150 314620 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I've had to < 1311993158 221697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :part of the problem is finding a good supervisor who fits you well < 1311993161 552190 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, saying I'm an egotist probably calls into question whether I actually am, according to elliott_ logic. < 1311993172 757951 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maverick to me has connotations of being a brilliant jerk < 1311993176 898867 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a questionable self-identification < 1311993212 233126 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, I have a good advisor and someone I could work with, and hopefully none of us would find any of the others insufferable jerks. < 1311993232 931936 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good start < 1311993233 415363 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I'm using it in its literal sense of an unorthodox person. < 1311993235 589833 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have a thesis, too? < 1311993239 584082 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's mostly that I'm contrary. < 1311993250 607236 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, something to study towards? < 1311993252 719814 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially in the face of what I percieve to be arbitrary authority. < 1311993265 842183 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, you're not that unorthodox if you've managed three years of university < 1311993270 928875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :either you or your supervisor needs to come up with one < 1311993275 493662 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Oh yeah, I'm interested in dependent typing for imperative languages. < 1311993287 685107 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that's possibly niche enough to work < 1311993288 227169 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's more to it than that, but that's the gist. < 1311993288 916754 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now there's a terrible idea < 1311993299 927096 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I expect you're going to tell me why. < 1311993312 437969 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not, but it seems like adding any kind of mutability breaks the type system immediately < 1311993317 344244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although computer scientists will probably push you into doing it for ML because it's about the most imperative they're willing to consider < 1311993319 184593 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :without encapsulating it somehow < 1311993321 759438 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which stops it being imperative < 1311993327 831110 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: that's what makes it an interesting problem < 1311993336 785281 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, imperative languages are a bad idea in general, being a subset of functional ones < 1311993340 267975 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and leaving out the most expressive parts < 1311993352 778720 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, I'd question whether the result could be called dependently-typed. or maybe imperative. < 1311993365 802551 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are imperative languages out there with rudimentary dependent type systems, but they're very "researchy" and I want to make something more accessible. < 1311993387 491682 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I consider dependent typing too useful to frame in a language that scares real programmers off. < 1311993389 59095 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'm going to do a PhD in taking some research and making it friendly to the masses" < 1311993399 577862 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: by real programmers, you mean bad programmers, right? < 1311993406 656537 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(right) < 1311993407 65304 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Yes. < 1311993409 807172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean real programmers as in Mel? < 1311993419 482202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or as in undergraduate Java users? < 1311993442 176761 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: so you've chosen academia as the vehicle to make a piece of academic research accessible to idiots who dismiss anything from academia as useless? < 1311993443 271897 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No, I mean average programmers, the everyday variety. < 1311993444 513682 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemme know how that goes < 1311993446 109489 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/comments/j2d1x/to_all_religion_vs_morality_an_experimental/ Oh come on, I'd have to argue the viewpoint I agree with? That's boring < 1311993452 606981 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :who the fuck is an average programmer < 1311993465 985832 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: the mere existence of /r/DebateReligion worries me < 1311993467 111764 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it someone who has to use java anyway because they're writing a CRUD database interface and it isn't up to them < 1311993476 288281 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Let me know how else to get funding to make what I want. < 1311993480 220896 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like it's a honey pot reddit designed to contain trolls < 1311993482 977359 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody can give a satisfactory definition of average programmer that doesn't preclude them choosing the tools < 1311993493 511988 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: what funding do you need beyond enough to live? < 1311993498 371594 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :typing doesn't cost money < 1311993533 467732 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's terrible, it has little tags so you can assure people that you don't REALLY think this, you're just explaining the other side < 1311993545 268920 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, beautiful < 1311993546 722487 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: That is the amount of funding that I need. If I get a job, I will have money. Quite a bit, in fact. But I won't have as much time, and time is far more important to me than money. < 1311993553 891795 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually implemented in, or just conventional character sequences? < 1311993558 483462 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: with CSS formatting < 1311993562 230979 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by conventional, I mean "have a meaning by convention" < 1311993563 762584 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: haha < 1311993585 461000 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "now debates will have much fewer personal insults because we bring your personal views into the discussion!" < 1311993592 220479 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I have a job as well as the PhD, 25%/75% < 1311993597 845360 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: so how does this imperative dependent typing exactly work < 1311993614 699562 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I think it's so that you can persuade people who share your personal viewpoint that you aren't betraying them < 1311993620 854113 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how long will it take you to realise that the "average programmer" can't actually choose to use your language < 1311993629 871347 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yep, so it makes debates personal < 1311993636 362949 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: never ask a PhD student something directly on topic to the subject of their PhD < 1311993642 502085 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : [](/da) are playing devil's advocate < 1311993642 554427 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[](/nmv) are giving information that does not agree with your personal views < 1311993644 158339 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the answer will continue for years and you won't understand it < 1311993646 206727 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Christianity is a religion. [NMV] < 1311993650 212237 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: he's not a Ph.D. student < 1311993656 307068 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not yet, I suppose < 1311993662 596184 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you might have a chance at getting out alive < 1311993685 33720 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: my secret weapon is knowing I'm the only right-thinking person in any discussion < 1311993714 703459 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: but sometimes you change your mind as the result of a discussion < 1311993753 504469 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but only if it's with you < 1311993755 986288 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1311993769 907974 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: anyway, that just means it took a while for my rightness to kick in < 1311993776 881233 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: The simplest way to explain it is that the type system is a complete, purely functional, lazy language with no mutability, and the value system is an imperative, eager one with mutability. < 1311993792 491442 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, an image on prog21; I forgot it existed in the same universe as HTML pages with images on them < 1311993804 505883 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: umm, what dependently typed languages do you know, so I can express what I'm about to < 1311993818 418205 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Only Agda. < 1311993821 854519 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :please don't say none, the force of my facepalm will cause actual devastation to many north-eastern English populations < 1311993829 184330 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: ugh < 1311993834 462170 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: you're going to shout at me now for not knowing what prog21 is < 1311993834 609992 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just wing it. < 1311993838 481842 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: can you learn Coq so that I can talk to you without bringing up my character map? < 1311993867 741418 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Programming in the 21st Century; it's a Good Blog About Programming(tm) < 1311993870 712734 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I may end up knowing more Agda than Coq because I'm apparently to work with an Agda fanatic < 1311993880 341051 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you have one more not knowing what prog21 is, then the shouting begins < 1311993885 687627 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I can pick up what's relevant to the discussion. < 1311993886 26087 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that has a tendency to rub off on you < 1311993897 741923 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, I doubt you'd be surprised at me not knowing what X is for more or less any X < 1311993902 812252 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you'll hate Agda, I suspect < 1311993911 116386 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even when I do know what the X is, I often don't know what it's called < 1311993915 553522 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it uses Unicode everywhere < 1311993918 260303 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find it difficult to take a language seriously whose name is "cock". < 1311993920 490542 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even for basic syntax < 1311993928 796747 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: you realise Agda means that too? < 1311993931 761142 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: that seems to be to do with the libraries not the lang itself, but fair enough < 1311993950 855410 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a mutation of Swedish "rooster" or something < 1311993951 734808 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unicode everywhere is not that problematic, the difficulty is characters-not-on-my-keyboard everywhere < 1311993952 503119 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of Coq < 1311993963 539454 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: umm, unless you consider the function arrow the library < 1311993974 98466 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, haha, it's not ->? < 1311993978 270807 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's → < 1311993986 434624 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I didn't know that. But I stand by it. I don't take Agda seriously. :P < 1311993987 53494 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and it uses a two-colon char instead of :: < 1311993987 236168 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, → is on my keyboard < 1311993994 371202 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also forall < 1311994000 179008 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :→ is on my compose key... < 1311994001 212641 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also lambda < 1311994011 218394 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it comes with an emacs mode, though, so you can say \to for → < 1311994013 105217 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the like < 1311994014 99962 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1311994020 949906 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I have to keep explaining what all the backslashes mean in my ICA programs < 1311994028 646574 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I'm using \ for lambda Haskell-style < 1311994035 488039 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but \a.b not \a -> b) < 1311994036 808336 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: anyway < 1311994089 620714 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: forall A (xs:List A), is_empty xs -> forall (x:A), ~(list_elem x xs) < 1311994093 246357 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now if we say < 1311994101 23729 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait < 1311994105 308770 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: vacuous_empty_list : forall A (xs:List A), is_empty xs -> forall (x:A), ~(list_elem x xs) < 1311994106 449123 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now if we say < 1311994109 488013 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :xs := empty_list; < 1311994112 311857 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq is french for rooster < 1311994114 344324 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :proof := vacuous_empty_list xs; < 1311994124 173567 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :insert 9 xs; < 1311994132 925734 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ermm, list here is mutable < 1311994143 147195 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: ...then we can prove ~True, since (list_elem 9 xs) < 1311994189 567803 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :\to is also the Plain TeX (and maybe also LaTeX and ConTeXt) command for the right arrow in math mode, too < 1311994221 801162 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: no? < 1311994246 177177 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: You're thinking immutably. In my language, a mutating operation of any kind may change type as well as value. < 1311994249 870348 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: And if you can't prove that the vacuous property on all elements of an empty (mutable) list, then you can't prove almost anything about mutable structures < 1311994269 33304 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means that you just have... a functional language where an IO monad is baked in for no reason < 1311994278 752705 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I think \rightarrow is more common < 1311994287 133731 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it's just a case of me not knowing the LaTeX for something < 1311994289 492568 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes \rightarrow also does that. < 1311994301 995596 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to actually write $a^{\prime}$ rather than $a'$ < 1311994304 852954 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yep, but \to is quicker to type in emacs < 1311994306 290504 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I didn't know of the abbreviation < 1311994311 309512 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those aren't identical AFAIK < 1311994319 556611 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but they're close enough < 1311994327 165116 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the latter is correct < 1311994328 266723 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :\to and \rightarrow are identical commands; I just checked. < 1311994333 649023 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And ' in math mode is a prime. < 1311994338 908069 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Because I'm sure you can encode mutable variables that can change type upon mutation in Coq < 1311994349 295202 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then build a mutable list with that < 1311994357 675870 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since, math code 0 means treat as an active character in math mode. < 1311994366 47452 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Also: How do you avoid this? < 1311994369 266995 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no, I think evincar's trying to add dependent typing to Visual Basic < 1311994375 182425 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, ' has some special macro to check how many prime it is. < 1311994378 964171 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: oops : _|_; oops = while true {} < 1311994389 945058 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: But of course the point is that mutability is only there if you want it, not encouraged. Values and types are both immutable by default, and there are significant gains to going with the flow. < 1311994392 214438 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the first imperative language I could think of offhand with a Variant type) < 1311994403 482754 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since you can do more than one prime, but ^{\prime} multiple times doesn't work. < 1311994405 298125 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: OK, so why is the language imperative? < 1311994422 957049 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Really I think it should have been designed so that it works; but it doesn't.) < 1311994424 622113 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Ugh. Don't get me started on variants. < 1311994428 674768 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: You can encode such mutable variables in any functional, dependently-typed language < 1311994435 252371 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: do you know of the standard formalization of imperative languages in computer science? < 1311994442 763613 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: So IDGI. < 1311994445 659448 :TeruFSX!~quassel@pool-214-156.res.carleton.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1311994446 563500 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: The point isn't purity, though. It's utility and accessibility. < 1311994451 767225 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the simple imperative language" is the usual name < 1311994460 338879 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: FFS, the IO monad is impure. < 1311994475 411325 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think THE ROCKET'S TRAP is a stupid card and ROCKET'S SNEAK ATTACK is much better? < 1311994477 273845 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're basically choosing to make the language more complicated because it lets you call it "imperative" and get backs on the back from idiots who are afraid of lambdas. < 1311994482 332705 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I think it can be implemented in a pure way, given the way laziness works < 1311994515 2682 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: The interesting part is a dependently-typed language where the values can fail to terminate without making the type system unsound. < 1311994515 535261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: also, would you consider ICA imperative? < 1311994529 616483 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Don't burden it with something you can encode, with no loss at all, into a pure version. < 1311994531 809010 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has lots of lambdas, and uses a Y-like fixing operator for recursion, but it also has if, while, and assignable variables < 1311994542 730430 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although they have fixed types) < 1311994550 173411 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: There is literally no advantage of baking mutable variables in, especially if there are proving-related gains to using immutable values. < 1311994567 727358 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But lambdas is very useful things in many programming languages, whether functional or imperative < 1311994578 998457 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: imperative is practically impossible to define; it's a non-compositional, impure language < 1311994579 912227 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo: really? < 1311994585 604384 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: fair enough < 1311994586 232161 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but only the IO is non-compositional < 1311994591 663681 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OTOH, in ICA, I suspect IO is rather a lot of the program < 1311994604 265318 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Yes, sometimes. < 1311994612 252210 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Why do you think I want dependent typing for its proving capabilities? I simply think it's a useful abstraction for how to organise a type system. < 1311994628 849261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :atm, the way IO works is that the program is given a function as argument, which, when forced, takes a number as argument and outputs it < 1311994634 338158 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: And making an imperative language with a functional type system burdens neither. < 1311994637 616323 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's no input, but it could be implemented in an analogous way < 1311994640 771592 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a false dichotomy here. < 1311994659 26763 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language is about as strict as call-by-name gets, which is still pretty lazy < 1311994663 873244 :Kerber0s!~me@186.221.45.58 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311994670 494949 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it ever the case in Haskell sometimes someone will write a program and compile it but what the program does is unimportant, only whether it will compile successfully? < 1311994683 478151 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: people normally use Coq or Agda for that < 1311994689 831343 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or in any other programming language? < 1311994711 509850 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Unless you can respond to my true statement that your language would lose absolutely nothing from implementing mutable variables inside the language itself and not having them as a burdensome axiom, I can't continue. < 1311994716 97045 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, I was wondering why my coworker was bothering to implement Agda at all < 1311994721 319943 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought programming was more for many-to-many problems, rather than many-to-few < 1311994741 174551 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: actually, there are advantages to having mutable variables as an axiom, but I can't remember offhand what they are < 1311994756 255300 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's some technical advantage involved < 1311994763 52819 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably in operational semantics < 1311994772 189728 :Kerber0s!~me@186.221.45.58 PART :#esoteric < 1311994791 242989 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether this is relevant at all in evincar's situation, I don't know < 1311994791 742080 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the burden is on evincar to tell me why baking them in as an axiom that introduces unchecked side-effects is beneficial < 1311994798 841958 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: The language wouldn't lose anything, but it wouldn't gain anything either. If a programmer wants to implement a function with local mutable variables because it's the simplest way for the problem to be decomposed, they can go for it. < 1311994819 365346 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: You can do that without making it unchecked! You can do that without making it an axiom! < 1311994830 560421 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I think you're missing elliott_'s point, which is asking whether mutable variables can more easily be implemented within the language itself rather than as part of it < 1311994834 483909 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: And a pure function can do all the mutation it wants to locals and still be referentially transparent. < 1311994841 533888 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: have you ever heard of ST? < 1311994843 462511 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. like State in Haskell < 1311994843 533656 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's EXACTLY that < 1311994878 107391 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are being a broken record; "oh, it's nice to use mutable variables sometimes in localised parts of the program" is such a fucking common argument against "functional languages" vs. "imperative languages" but it's utter rubbish; functional languages _have those things_, the only difference is that imperative languages have unchecked IO < 1311994892 564787 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: you might be interested in how variables work in ICA, they're referentially transparent because there's no way to return the equivalent-of-address of a variable from a function (because call-by-name), and are scoped < 1311994901 61590 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that cannot possibly be an advantage, because it is a subset that _omits the most expressive parts of a language_ < 1311994917 693686 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: heh < 1311994939 975313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, you can write a function of type, say, exp->var just fine, but what happens is that each time you try to access the variable it asks for the matching expression, then carries out whatever operation you were trying to do to the variable in a lazy way < 1311994954 392756 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: So if I were to say that I'm going to implement my nominally imperative language in a purely functional fashion, such that mutating operations are emulated, what does that gain me? < 1311994975 919585 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Other than complicating the implementation. < 1311994978 383666 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can't achieve the same thing with equivalent-of-ST/State, incidentally, because it wouldn't handle parallel computation correctly < 1311995004 392537 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no way in a monad to carry out two monad actions in that monad simultaneously, in general < 1311995015 735586 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Question is dishonest; there is no "emulation" going on, and you have already told me enough to know that your language is not nominally imperative; and it cannot complicate implementation, because the function arrows, etc. that you need for a dependently-typed system like Agda already involve you implementing a functional language, so it can only simplify. < 1311995053 996828 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :new a in (a := 1 || a:= 2); print a < 1311995057 461276 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, that's wrong < 1311995058 833028 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :new a in (a := 1 || a:= 2); print !a < 1311995067 653748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :always remember to dereference your variables, folks! < 1311995082 506152 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that translates into Haskell at all < 1311995092 361348 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that < 1311995101 9866 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's one potential use for evincar's language, assuming it works < 1311995113 606706 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: declare a variable a, assign 1 and 2 simultaneously to it, print the resulting value < 1311995119 900912 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which will be either 1 or 2, based on timing < 1311995131 734314 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :|| means parallel here, not or < 1311995138 399952 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1311995157 190871 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is | because C operators have too much of a hold on the world's conciousness by now) < 1311995171 168973 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1311995175 466098 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so you're breaking it by being unlike C? < 1311995179 687242 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you actually use bitwise or in C :-) < 1311995184 360613 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "||" makes so much more visual sense for "parallel". :( < 1311995184 485750 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: heh < 1311995187 693633 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, booleans are one-bit values < 1311995197 157527 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so logical and bitwise or are the same thing < 1311995210 908659 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Now *that* sounds like Basic. < 1311995212 778441 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no autocasting of >1-bit integers to booleans, you have to manually compare to 0 < 1311995213 36496 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (which is | because C operators have too much of a hold on the world's conciousness by now) < 1311995216 375373 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't understand this < 1311995227 14946 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I mean, I couldn't live with having or as anything but | and || < 1311995231 38031 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and || was already taken < 1311995239 24648 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :xor and and are ^ and & < 1311995272 570374 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: quick, what's gcd(0,0) < 1311995279 479110 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I don't know < 1311995285 416385 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume +INF < 1311995296 4253 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Euclid's algorithm says 0 < 1311995306 994177 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it couldn't really say anything else, could it? < 1311995322 778961 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION says because of http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/libraries/2011-June/016450.html
< 1311995326 737958 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: very well < 1311995343 211849 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :CWEB also uses | to include C codes in text, the reason is that WEB uses it for Pascal codes in text, because | is not used in Pascal, and then they put the same thing for C and sometimes it doesn't work in case you want to use "or" in C codes in text. But you can still do in other ways. Even many other programming language including Javascript, AWK, etc also uses || for logical or < 1311995343 445839 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lcm(0,0) is uncontroversially 0, and gcd(a,b)*lcm(a,b) normally equals a*b < 1311995347 758163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which gives further evidence for +INF < 1311995368 461267 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: umm, it does? < 1311995370 375683 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that suggests 0 to me < 1311995374 586892 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right < 1311995383 453711 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, was gonna say, no it does not. < 1311995384 415703 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no, err, I'm confused < 1311995386 973594 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't suggest anything < 1311995392 40186 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sets it equal to 0/0 < 1311995396 215606 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I take it I should stop expecting a response < 1311995399 182549 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not a useful thing to do < 1311995408 489263 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: lcm(0,0) = 0; lcm(0,0)*gcd(0,0) = 0*0 = 0 < 1311995409 202775 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason I calculated it as 1/0 < 1311995414 429602 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so gcd(0,0) can be anything < 1311995415 653073 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I'm losing track of what the current attack is. < 1311995421 453842 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: "Attack"? Seriously? < 1311995431 994340 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, it doesn't force any particular value on gcd(0,0) < 1311995441 741917 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Your style of conversation is notoriously aggressive. ;) < 1311995442 180182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: actually, when your PhD is actually marked, the final stage is a viva < 1311995455 290452 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you have to sit in a group with a bunch of professors who try to attack your thesis, and you have to defend it < 1311995467 517901 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you pass if they couldn't invalidate your last four years of work < 1311995471 492946 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: How am I supposed to respond to a "when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife" question aside from explaining that it's dishonest? I'm a bit exasperated, I admit, but that's mostly because it's annoying to see someone who knows Agda spout what is essentially the party line on anti-functionalism. < 1311995475 799690 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they mark the written part first, I think) < 1311995478 97778 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott_: So if I were to say that I'm going to implement my nominally imperative language in a purely functional fashion, such that mutating operations are emulated, what does that gain me? < 1311995478 149949 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott_: Other than complicating the implementation. < 1311995478 266320 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : evincar: Question is dishonest; there is no "emulation" going on, and you have already told me enough to know that your language is not nominally imperative; and it cannot complicate implementation, because the function arrows, etc. that you need for a dependently-typed system like Agda already involve you implementing a functional language, so it can only simplify. < 1311995480 837998 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the latest context. < 1311995483 145629 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Attack"? Yes it is attack. Now you are playing pokemon card but you forgot which attack you want, in case there is 2 attack or in case you want to pass even if you can attack < 1311995487 676165 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I know < 1311995500 30692 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: it's kind-of rare to pass in that game < 1311995510 524661 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I can just-about imagine situations where it might be useful < 1311995512 669492 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: See also http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/faq-the-snake-fight-portion-of-your-thesis-defense < 1311995520 157552 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you probably won't click that, but the URL is funny enough) < 1311995533 1550 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Actually I find it very useful to pass in many situations < 1311995539 834389 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I did click it, in case it was useful < 1311995544 869653 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: haha < 1311995546 158090 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'd hate to have you marking my PhD < 1311995562 893895 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm only angry on the internet < 1311995580 928275 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I do consider it emulation. Just like I can write an interpreter for an imperative language with mutating operations in a language without mutating operations, so too can I write an interpreter for a language with only immutable values on hardware that is fundamentally (though not trivially) imperative. < 1311995608 231417 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: If you think your hardware follows a fundamental ordered imperative model, you're stuck in the 90s < 1311995609 770110 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it makes a decent metaphor even if it claims not to be < 1311995613 2071 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it _emulates_ one < 1311995615 372398 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: That aside, I'll ultimately go with whatever implementation strategy seems simplest and best. Ideally the language will be small and implemented largely in terms of itself. < 1311995635 495212 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: hardware doesn't follow a functional model either, admittedly < 1311995639 939831 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the part about fighting a snake instead of actually writing a thesis is the best < 1311995642 850214 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Of course it doesn't < 1311995645 586405 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at Checkout if you want to know what it actually does < 1311995649 793177 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I don't. That's why I qualified my statement a bit. :P < 1311995650 506059 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But who the hell picks programming model based on their hardware model < 1311995659 132604 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott_: That aside, I'll ultimately go with whatever implementation strategy seems simplest and best. Ideally the language will be small and implemented largely in terms of itself. < 1311995668 950019 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: me, but admittedly that's a special case < 1311995670 354539 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only sometimes < 1311995673 816319 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yeah but it emulates one for a good reason < 1311995675 502940 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I don't think you really want this, because you weren't interested in a change to simplify the language incredibly and make implementing it easier, and have it defined more in itself than it was < 1311995690 1260 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I'm not arguing that it's a good idea to pick a programming model based on the hardware. In fact, I'd argue the opposite so long as the hardware doesn't serve the abstractions of the problem domain perfectly. < 1311995702 873204 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: please, talking to both evincar and ais523 at once is hard enough, I can't have an anti-functionalism argument with someone whose positions I don't even know at the same time < 1311995707 334320 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: part of the reason I haven't started writing Anarchy yet is that I'd really want to implement it in itself < 1311995717 755376 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: and I'm not even disagreeing with you! < 1311995724 11481 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly, at least < 1311995734 505643 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I'm just reserving judgement, I guess. < 1311995738 880687 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to write Democracy. How any function works is determined by all coders of that language voting on its behaviour < 1311995749 63292 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: see: php < 1311995752 236713 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1311995768 939779 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I am trying to make a language that's highly usable and easy to understand. < 1311995769 704629 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: that's a worryingly accurate joke < 1311995783 640700 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.econugenics.com/t-our-products.aspx?affiliateID=10100 <-- I read this as "neoEugenics" rather than "ecoNugenics" < 1311995788 352843 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought you all should know < 1311995790 355678 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Not because I'm pursuing some misguided "non-programmers should be able to program" goal. < 1311995802 372196 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Easy to understand for who < 1311995808 522174 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: it sounds like you're pursuing some misguided "programmers should be able to program" goal < 1311995818 137667 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But because I don't like using languages that make me conform to them rather than the other way around. < 1311995821 294427 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: And really: understanding dependent type systems is not easy for any "average imperative programmer". < 1311995837 841608 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't go from Java to that without some resistance. That's just a fact. < 1311995856 829933 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideally, a dependent type system would not require any input from the programmer at all < 1311995864 503145 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just give you really good warning messages < 1311995872 783157 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Sure, but you can tease people in with nifty examples. < 1311995887 400147 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "this branch of this if statement is unreachable because the variable never gets the number 4", or whatever < 1311995888 898106 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Anyway if you're a maverick who dislikes working for others and rejects false authority why the hell are you devoting yourself to the false authority of the Average Programmer(tm), why the hell are you watering down your language so that it's easy for the mythical Average Programmer(tm)??? < 1311995893 877377 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I suspect that isn't what evincar isn't aiming for < 1311995916 10215 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, s/n't(.*)n't/n't$1/ < 1311995917 987950 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Even trivial ones like defining sequence joining as `+`[a:T[n], b:T[m]]:T[n+m]={...} < 1311995926 792890 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a shorter way to write that regex, but I forget what it is to start with < 1311995937 30657 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: that's the least enticing example ever < 1311995945 924542 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not winning any Java programmers with that syntax, dude < 1311995948 525528 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1311995959 329056 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/.*\Kn't// < 1311995963 918609 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks, man perlre < 1311995991 752973 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must say I'm agreeing with elliott_ here < 1311995994 692113 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: is the {...} literal, or representing omitted code? < 1311996013 245042 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think parametricity actually guarantees that function to only have one implementation < 1311996013 443748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(shut up this is #esoteric I have to ask that sort of question) < 1311996025 796084 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so a Sufficiently Smart Compiler could actually accept {...} there :-P < 1311996026 472265 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait no < 1311996027 182726 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: The majority of programmers are not the best programmers out there. I think doing a public service by making power available (conceptually) to people isn't submitting to authority at all, it's doing what all people ought. < 1311996027 234789 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then why do you need to write the implementation at all? < 1311996030 299469 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait yes < 1311996035 101826 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it needs a type variable < 1311996035 848745 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it could reverse the lists before joining them, couldn't it? < 1311996040 314629 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, right < 1311996042 869276 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and still obey the type signature? < 1311996043 881414 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn < 1311996048 940104 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's a placeholder for an implementation, but it's probably unnecessary in that example. < 1311996050 520697 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: so you're making a bad language because of socialism, OK < 1311996064 261347 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(bad language = not as good a language as it could be) < 1311996088 358836 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: do you live in a country where you can make arbitrary things bad by accusing them of being socialism? < 1311996091 327350 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: In your opinion. And I am a socialist, but that's not really the point. < 1311996102 391531 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: that's literally what you just said < 1311996104 849357 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Nope < 1311996105 909452 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I simply like making stuff that helps people make stuff, because I like making stuff. < 1311996114 626510 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, does that actually /work/ in the US? might be the easiest way to win arguments ever) < 1311996119 259367 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but I do think "for the good of the people" is the stupidest reason to make a language I can think of < 1311996137 861027 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: there have to be even stupider reasons, surely? < 1311996145 937375 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And yeah, you could add more type information to make it more correct. :P < 1311996150 595757 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: So you'd make a thing that's worse than another thing you could also make, because more closed-minded idiots would like it, and fewer open-minded clever people would like it? < 1311996163 438946 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If yes, your priorities need checking. < 1311996176 379104 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: well, I care somewhat about people being able to use my stuff as well < 1311996192 309311 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not what I said < 1311996194 130222 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm doing it along the lines of "this language is pretty easy to use anyway, and you can always compile into it) < 1311996201 869603 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, s/\)/"/ < 1311996209 469971 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: You're assuming that the majority of people are closed-minded idiots, which I challenge. < 1311996214 43842 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: presumably, you wouldn't make [generic FPS 999] rather than AceHack just because more people with bad taste would like the former < 1311996215 241982 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't looking at what I was typing and forgot what sort of delimeter I had to close < 1311996217 775486 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: Nope. < 1311996223 101757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :further evidence that I'm thinking in stack-based form < 1311996233 260481 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: AceHack was actually a response to popular demand < 1311996243 331412 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: hey evincar is your language going to have goto < 1311996245 509152 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: "more closed-minded idiots...fewer open-minded clever people..." < 1311996248 658912 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also, there's less competition; probably fewer people would play generic FPS 999 because it would have so much competition < 1311996259 376756 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I'm assuming that the (mythical) Average Programmer who will dismiss a language because it's pure (but not for having a really advanced type system that is a purely-functional language in itself??) is a closed-minded idiot. < 1311996267 830737 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is true by definition. < 1311996286 342119 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: but mostly, I suppose I just like programming, and producing something that other people like out of that is a useful side-effect < 1311996301 660433 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: won't Average Programmers dismiss languages for not being Java? < 1311996310 473656 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: goto is very expressive, you see, and shouldn't an expressive language have it? Average Programmers understand it too! < 1311996310 875723 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: let me type something < 1311996316 557566 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yep < 1311996341 541561 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: your new PhD thesis: retrofitting dependent typing onto Java < 1311996355 963071 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gah now I can't decide whether that idea is horrible or awesome) < 1311996359 149367 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: you want people to learn a purely-functional programming language (which can already encode all the mutability and IO you want, with no loss in convenience or expressivity, which is simpler, has fewer errors because of unchecked non-local side-efects, and which has more language features described in itself rather than primitive) < 1311996367 940094 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: PLUS an impure language which doesn't have those advantages < 1311996370 434272 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: ...rather than just both. < 1311996372 242501 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1311996374 419462 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: ...rather than just the pure one. < 1311996389 915891 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Before you say you don't, < 1311996391 622170 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you do: < 1311996391 897546 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott_: The simplest way to explain it is that the type system is a complete, purely functional, lazy language with no mutability, and the value system is an imperative, eager one with mutability. < 1311996396 993406 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: You could make something that is goto in all appearances, but implemented more sanely. I'm not sure what card you're trying to play. < 1311996415 382520 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: The simplest way to explain it is not necessarily the best way. < 1311996418 715628 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and you know how you said youcould use functions which had local mutable state but didn't leak it outside? Congratulations, now you can't use those functions in types. < 1311996433 315161 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the ST monad, you can, and it acts identically. And it enforces, with the type system, that you don't leak anything out, rather than leaving it up to not making mistakes. < 1311996438 996520 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trying to play the demonstrating how it's stupid to add things for the sake of average programmers being expressive with them card < 1311996442 303245 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if thats ok with you < 1311996443 831523 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Besides, the C++ type system is a complete functional language with no mutability. < 1311996452 841484 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1311996466 510992 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: There's an example of my madness working in practice, with a far poorer design. < 1311996473 105659 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ is also shit < 1311996476 950880 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :your defence < 1311996477 689146 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is C++ < 1311996484 559093 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that means I've won... < 1311996487 499801 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: It is a language that exists? < 1311996493 121938 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That it is. < 1311996495 808740 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: did he ever explain how Average Programmers are supposed to use dependant types? I'm afraid I might have accidentally skipped over it < 1311996501 213549 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the worse things about Magic Set Editor is they lie. They say it is pure but actually it isn't, because of the random number functions, and the export functions. It is possible to make pure versions of these functions, which can be helpful in some cases. < 1311996502 502212 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that lots of ppl use? < 1311996505 288020 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: he's going to entice them with a list append function < 1311996515 723932 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: I did not. < 1311996516 237477 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :very clever < 1311996521 201579 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: just a note, appealing to C++ in programming forums, unless they're dedicated to games or old-fashioned Windows development, will generally make everyone laugh at you < 1311996523 872757 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: then they'll just go to their bosses and say "hey let me stop using java, there's this great language in this thesis..." < 1311996528 588156 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, it may even Godwin the thread < 1311996530 227847 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the bosses will be all "ok" < 1311996535 741175 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm well aware. I try not to touch the thing, honestly. < 1311996538 158749 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's not quite the same thing < 1311996562 661485 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: okay, well, it doesn't surprise me that there is a language that is more expressive than primitive recursive functions and less expressive than a TM. < 1311996564 647748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: how do you make a pure version of a random number function? get it to take the seed as argument and return another seed along with the result? < 1311996572 61254 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :atehwa: right < 1311996581 703112 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note, "you" here = "zzo38") < 1311996585 218718 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :atehwa: you seemed to imply such a language couldn't express Ackermann, though < 1311996609 242686 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I was going to write an Ackermann-bounded-automaton as an esolang at one point < 1311996611 568056 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but got sidetracked < 1311996613 807674 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, well, I wasn't aware of such a language. < 1311996620 811052 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :atehwa: right < 1311996625 738455 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: The point of having a dependent type system in an imperative language is merely to offer fine control over the contracts that can be expressed over values, to help enforce program correctness. < 1311996641 45009 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: oh, so you do want proving? < 1311996642 397162 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes. Or, just add to the seed each time, call it with seed=x+1, seed=x+2, seed=x+3, etc < 1311996646 791394 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you just wanted it because it was a good way to organise a type system. < 1311996647 551175 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all I remember is that you had a finite number of values to work with and all operations consumed a value, except finitely many times, you could ackermann two values and get that many values < 1311996649 350942 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... that's what you said. < 1311996650 589555 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make the interface to it pleasant to look at, and the battle is basically won. < 1311996655 227605 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : zzo38: how do you make a pure version of a random number function? get it to take the seed as argument and return another seed along with the result? < 1311996659 778050 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :see RandomGen < 1311996665 476355 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: creating your language won't make me think it's any more of a good idea. < 1311996680 358742 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do hope you realise how difficult it is to prove type systems correct, though < 1311996680 708084 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I was interested in the zzo38 answer in particular, I know about, say, RandomRIO < 1311996680 930948 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Formal correctness, practical correctness, different things. < 1311996683 106840 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially dependent ones < 1311996689 7247 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you have to mingle in the value normalisation proof < 1311996704 55314 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: If you write enough type information to make your program a formal proof, bully. But you don't have to. < 1311996716 108845 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: what is practical correctness < 1311996721 272033 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: way easier than it is to prove hardware implementations of type systems correct (in that after compiling to hardware, the thing still types properly and doesn't end up disobeying the protocol) < 1311996723 367871 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :trust me on this one < 1311996723 524411 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: The damn thing works? < 1311996771 197928 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Average Programmers, remember < 1311996804 514544 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: how does that respond to anything i say < 1311996807 704471 :TeruFSX!~quassel@pool-214-156.res.carleton.edu QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1311996871 414336 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :MSE has a few functions using random, so whatever way is used you can do it. For certain things (not all things), the script can be called with a random "seed" variable and then there are various ways in which you can have it do different random numbers. For export functions, just have them return lists of export records. If the return value is a list it indicates exporting many files < 1311996871 547682 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1311997135 487308 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: And yes, I do realise that type systems aren't simple beasts by any means. < 1311997144 811010 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least not the monster I'm getting myself into a fight with. < 1311997308 461063 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311997486 224895 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how thoroughly I get pounced on in here. < 1311997511 96514 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so uh < 1311997512 669974 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even a fairly casual mention of something is going to provoke intense questioning. < 1311997519 186276 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sequence joining example or whatever it was < 1311997521 320742 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it mean < 1311997532 465196 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: it's just length-indexed vectors < 1311997571 829596 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :im probably just not getting the syntax < 1311997578 251895 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Yeah, it's nothing exciting. It just says that the result of joining two vectors of lengths m and n is a vector of length m+n. < 1311997591 218319 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that's the type < 1311997598 845350 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote the birdstyle.tex program, it is useful not only for Haskell but can be used with any program that uses Bird style (if any others exists). However, it makes error if the first command in a paragraph is outer command, but you can work around by putting \relax at first < 1311997631 895222 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should totally make the type system imperative too < 1311997664 211102 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: You would need an implementation, obviously, but you could put enough information in the type signature to obviate the need for one. < 1311997679 510629 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1311997687 864931 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're actually planning to make it automatically generate functions based on the type? < 1311997689 397200 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1311997699 315037 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: No? < 1311997708 704909 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you could put enough information in the type signature to obviate the need for one" < 1311997717 476556 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: then just add good enough type inference, and you don't need to write anything at all! < 1311997718 400472 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"obviate the need for one" is a bit bizarre of a thing to say < 1311997722 311861 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Yes, because you could express the implementation in the type system, functionally. < 1311997729 143750 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oh please let that be possible in some esolangish way) < 1311997732 920022 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: show me an Agda function without any implementation < 1311997737 527107 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Poor choice of words, that's all. < 1311997738 741707 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just defined in the type system < 1311997742 981684 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because what you said makes no sense at all < 1311997768 666710 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so uh < 1311997779 689958 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: more commonly, Agda functions don't have a return value (or well, they return something that's commonly called ), and exist only to make the thing type < 1311997782 147345 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this thing actually going to infer implementation from the type? < 1311997785 423960 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: There is a functional subset and an imperative subset. You can implement a particular function in a mix of either. < 1311997796 78493 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: The functional subset happens to be the type system. < 1311997811 630960 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: that doesn't mean you can define a function and just give it a cool enough type that you can leave out the value < 1311997835 768210 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Not in those terms, no. < 1311997843 273251 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what are your terms < 1311997850 102357 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not those ones < 1311997876 172115 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: how is what you said possible, give me an example of a function where you put enough information in the type system and express the implementation in the type system, functionally, thus obviating the need of an implementation < 1311997895 323333 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can declare a detailed relationship between types, rather than declaring a simple relationship between types that includes an imperative implementation. < 1311997906 375151 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact you can make any program use Bird style with a simple AWK program: /^> /&&sub(/> /,"") < 1311997921 224279 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could also remove types from the signature entirely and perform no type checking, or perform type checking manually within the imperative part. < 1311997933 507728 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: that's not an example < 1311997965 50665 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I know, I'm just offering more explanation. But what do you want? I'll just be pulling syntax out of my arse. < 1311997985 995162 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like AWK? < 1311997999 88550 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: wait so you can not only infer implementation from type, but also just bypass type checking? < 1311998009 222162 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like AWK programming? < 1311998018 752579 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: an example of < 1311998020 573739 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : evincar: how is what you said possible, give me an example of a function where you put enough information in the type system and express the implementation in the type system, functionally, thus obviating the need of an implementation < 1311998026 33894 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: You can't infer implementation from type. You can implement a function as a type relation. < 1311998028 29642 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I have carefully constructed using only quotes from you < 1311998039 630859 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: and how does that work? < 1311998219 50238 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: The type system is a language in which you can express functions. If I pass 3 and 5 to such a function, I can treat them as "int", I can treat them as ">0", or I can treat them as instances of the types "3" and "5" whose only instances are those values. < 1311998228 820991 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really don't know how to explain it any more clearly. < 1311998241 698995 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: subtyping is not in any standard dependently-typed language that I know of < 1311998244 508428 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it _vastly_ complicates such things < 1311998283 325168 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: That's why I have a set of fundamental types that have representations, to keep things moderately sane. < 1311998289 959655 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1311998293 158580 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: From there, everything else is relations and predicates. < 1311998308 82905 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :out of curiosity how much of the literature on dependent typing have you read < 1311998319 730787 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Some types in the type system have concrete representations, for the sake of sanity. < 1311998350 435478 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: A few papers, not terribly much. < 1311998358 967107 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: I think you may need a type system /for/ your type system < 1311998378 209158 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing you said about fundamental types with representations actually made any sense, but ok < 1311998384 119816 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to go code mcmap < 1311998444 574545 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Maybe so? I hate to bring up C++ again, but templates do distinguish between "typename", "int", etc. as parameters. < 1311998466 483964 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it a terrible idea to have rudimentary introspection or whatever you want to call it? < 1311998488 118024 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've stopped actually making sense < 1311998506 137257 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are concrete representations, what is a fundamental type, how is your subtyping done, how is this related to introspection, and how is C++ relevant < 1311998550 971373 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pardon my ignorance but what does subtyping have to do with obviating the need of implementing sequence sticktogethering < 1311998565 348253 :MSleep!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1311998629 436091 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: A concrete representation (though there could be a better term for it) would be something naturally serialised in memory. A 32-bit unsigned integer. A 64-bit IEEE-754 float. < 1311998630 525370 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1311998676 700489 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Fundamental types consist of all such directly representable types, plus their natural extensions such as tuples/arrays. < 1311998690 54427 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean that you can implement sequencesticktogethering in the type system and then magically have it in the object language too? < 1311998714 537769 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: They aren't special except in the sense that they provide a basis from which to derive other types in a finite way. < 1311998723 354151 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: I'm not sure what you mean. < 1311998748 726524 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: help i'm confused because of what you said about need obviation < 1311998779 760641 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: If I write a function "foo" with an implementation but no type signature, no type checking is performed and the implementation is evaluated. < 1311998789 300899 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1311998832 726821 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :veering on a tangent here but how does foo mingle with typed things then, and how is letting people get away with untyped stuff a good idea < 1311998834 364806 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I write that same function with a type signature but no implementation, it's a declaration of a type relation which may or may not be fully evaluable. If I try to evaluate it, I find out. < 1311998885 437024 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I write both, then type checking and conversion *as well as* evaluation are performed. < 1311998887 259338 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mingleingle < 1311998974 690461 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: You can say there are basically two classes of types: those you care about and those you don't. If I write a function which takes arguments of any type and returns a value of any type, it's entirely up to the types involved to make sure that the operations performed on their instances are legal. < 1311998986 995083 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they're not, it's just a type error. < 1311998996 981384 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Duck-typing. < 1311999001 734178 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :im dead < 1311999063 279484 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so is this ever a good thing or is it just < 1311999066 134550 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311999071 101864 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is this dependently-typed exactly, i've been making all my statements under the assumption that it was a strongly-typed language with a dependent type system, but it appears you just said dependent because it's a nice word < 1311999072 118808 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Average Programmer laziness < 1311999084 109694 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right and what elliott_ said < 1311999153 658865 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Types depend on values and other types, and there isn't any real distinction between a type and a value. < 1311999173 197981 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that values can do io and change variables < 1311999216 676560 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, imperative portions can. You can use types imperatively and you can use values declaratively. < 1311999284 833798 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :???? < 1311999288 828204 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could easily say x = int; if (y) x = float; z = x(); # Create an instance of whatever x is. < 1311999328 507232 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this sounds like a total mess < 1311999334 47571 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree with elliott_ < 1311999346 713810 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uh < 1311999365 43305 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is mutability a good thing? < 1311999366 113968 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you just pick one idea and run with it rather than making a language that gels five thousand concepts together in a way you cannot explain in a satisfactory manner < 1311999369 70851 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just looks like a < 1311999370 105495 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :huge mess < 1311999391 83998 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :?_? < 1311999395 222371 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Invent the INTERCAL card game. < 1311999397 660740 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the easiest way to wipe an ssd so that it is, say, one tenth scrambled/overwritten < 1311999405 877633 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a laptop < 1311999412 688791 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: By five thousand, you mean two? < 1311999422 657681 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: nope < 1311999428 264829 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no there are more than two concepts in there < 1311999433 198577 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least three < 1311999439 104013 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and uh < 1311999445 852281 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the () in x() mean < 1311999446 350871 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I'm not explaining myself well because I've been awake for a while. < 1311999454 282407 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Instantiation. < 1311999467 795046 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Invent the INTERCAL card game, please. Do you know how? < 1311999468 427803 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :x contains a type, so you can instantiate that type. < 1311999495 517127 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It sounds like UNO but with a COME FROM card. < 1311999513 29709 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what does instantiation do < 1311999529 111292 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha a 'come from' card < 1311999530 879733 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Produces a value of a given type... < 1311999549 742824 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :MINGLE: shuffle the deck and the playing field into each other < 1311999560 834445 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, surely at least in /this/ channel an INTERCAL discussion can manage to avoid devolving into "hahaha COME FROM" < 1311999590 711891 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: It does? I don't know about UNO but maybe figure out how to make something like that, type the rules or whatever else you would do instead. Including, MINGLE card, and so on < 1311999618 583906 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: so you just assign z to a value of x? Doesn't it do anything else? < 1311999651 928058 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :up to now it sounds feasible in like, javascript, no? < 1311999653 312913 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: for example, what happens if i then try to, say, z = float(); < 1311999691 556329 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: are you conflating type declaration with instantiation? are you asking for trouble? < 1311999776 220653 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1311999866 516515 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1311999868 746621 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a use for bool variable types in non performance related stuff btw? < 1311999916 488103 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bool variable types? < 1311999942 304092 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :bools for performance? < 1311999949 104599 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "bool" type < 1311999951 306666 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Saying z = float() is the same as saying z = or possibly z = 0.0. < 1311999962 273164 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it useful < 1311999973 692344 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And given x = float, z = x() is the same as z = float(). < 1311999978 820750 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :bool is useful < 1311999979 516983 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :?_? < 1311999991 577334 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need it for performance though < 1311999996 177089 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's using 1 bit every 32/64 < 1312000000 85426 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you use it for understanding < 1312000017 187354 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it's syntactic sugar < 1312000024 580677 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything is syntactic sugar < 1312000026 175085 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's your point < 1312000035 986142 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: any reason why you don't declare the types of stuff in one place and then provide them with values (without this uninitialized value nonsense) in another? < 1312000109 922183 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then unless your system is performance oriented there's no point to types other than double, strings and agregates/arrays/objects/hashes/etc... of those < 1312000133 169760 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you did that with your sequence mush together thing right? put the type over in one place and the value in another? < 1312000137 774688 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I guess functions < 1312000154 268302 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than initailizing and then reassigning < 1312000156 835589 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: If I'm not after performance I can code everything I want in just brainfuck, but I don't because brainfuck is difficult to understand < 1312000159 392059 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because ew ew ew e we w e w e we we ew < 1312000162 307532 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: It's essentially the same thing though. If I say "x is a float", what value does "x" have before I give it a value? < 1312000165 401504 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Similarly, bools are used over ints because bools provide understanding < 1312000201 945214 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: it doesn't have one. it's an error to use it before you give it a value. you could even force giving an initial value in the declaration syntax. < 1312000221 256048 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :patashu: I'm not convinced it's a big gain < 1312000247 538002 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not only understanding, but type checking < 1312000254 794236 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: what's the point of using structures, let's just use lists < 1312000260 413351 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that < 1312000262 126989 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see the relevance of performance < 1312000270 800495 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: in fact, let's just use a brainfuck tape < 1312000271 490612 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Then there's no point to having a declaration. Saying "x = 0.0" or "x = float()" is no more or less clear than "float x = 0.0", and the latter is redundant. < 1312000300 426460 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: and why have types at all. just make everything byte arrays. < 1312000347 363203 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: the "x = float()" one is just full of bad ideas < 1312000362 615916 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: You wouldn't typically do that, of course. < 1312000370 212127 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :make it illegal < 1312000370 428728 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there's no point to char and short except for specifically saving RAM and specific arrays < 1312000375 93773 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just clutter < 1312000385 857424 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bool is sugar < 1312000395 449367 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: what isn't sugar < 1312000405 712714 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sugar makes things sweeter < 1312000408 111478 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bool conveys your intentions < 1312000411 384322 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: are type systems sugar < 1312000412 749711 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"this is a boolean, false or true" < 1312000415 56752 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int doesn't convey this < 1312000419 802560 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: bool is not an integer in all languages < 1312000420 970969 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Also I fail to see the difference between "float x;" (x is of type float but is either uninitialised or zero) and "x = float();". < 1312000427 810536 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Haskell, False and True are booleans; 0 isn't a boolean < 1312000448 299731 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: the former is not what I said at all < 1312000451 86379 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, you're reminding me that I got into an argument about whether boolean should be sugar for 1-bit integer in my compiler, or a different type < 1312000469 638679 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int has no point either except as an array index < 1312000471 672676 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was arguing that people rarely used 1-bit integers for arithmetic purposes, so that they may as well be the same as booleans < 1312000509 904588 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: What do you mean, then? What value does an explicit declaration have? < 1312000544 358560 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: you realise types exist to make the programmer's life easier, right? < 1312000551 690517 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't all about performance, and types don't affect performance at all < 1312000555 29956 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, mostly < 1312000569 752055 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: knowing information about what a function wants to receive, and what it returns, is useful. < 1312000576 367266 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :knowing what type of data a variable is, is useful. < 1312000581 620293 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :having the compiler tell you when you mix that up, is useful. < 1312000584 953670 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bool conveys a useful intention. < 1312000615 389255 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What elliott_ said. < 1312000628 488204 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, you can have a type like bool or SQLEscapedString to convey an intention, then erase it into int or string respectively after you've done typechecking < 1312000643 868785 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you could just declare your variable as whateverFlag instead of just whatever < 1312000669 76597 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: That's Hungarian, and even its good uses are now frowned upon. < 1312000679 590308 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: seriously? < 1312000682 149901 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :But renaming the variable won't make the compiler (or runtime) catch mistakes < 1312000685 375396 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: what advantages does that have over bool? < 1312000688 734624 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a type system to check things for you, why rely on convention? < 1312000693 658479 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: the compiler doesn't stop you putting the wrong type of value in < 1312000697 987461 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can do int myFlag = 2; but I can't do bool my = 2; < 1312000698 241534 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: you have to type Flag each time you use it < 1312000701 727149 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of taht being encoded in the type < 1312000705 216707 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: you can in C, but that's C's fault < 1312000706 49343 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what, it's a bool < 1312000714 550691 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :awful eso idea: (good) hungarian notation enforced by the compiler < 1312000715 856882 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like you're going to mess that up < 1312000719 145266 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott ssh! < 1312000724 250422 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: it's not that an explicit declaration is good; it's that initializers are bad < 1312000725 275962 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: "So what if my system is more painful to use, and causes more errors?" < 1312000727 646292 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like a good type system, but with annoying boilerplaye enforced for no reason < 1312000731 861803 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr, you only have approximately 7 slots for short term memory < 1312000736 501372 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Yours has negative advantages over a bool type. < 1312000737 480217 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Negative. < 1312000738 910493 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :You WILL forget things even if you think they're trivial < 1312000742 74094 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*boilerplate < 1312000827 416338 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1312000839 256015 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: but seriously, so what if you wouldn't mess it up? < 1312000847 780626 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :your solution is still inferior: more typing. < 1312000864 774979 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why be inconsistent, and leave bools able to be messed up, when you wouldn't for a more complicated structure which you /can/ mess up? < 1312000896 293361 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: Could you elaborate? If a type is instantiable with no arguments (such as float might be), then why is it bad to instantiate it as such? I know you'd be more likely to say "x = 0.0" than "x = float()", but having the "T()" syntax (or whatever it turns out to be) for instantiation seems wholly innocuous to me. < 1312000942 509537 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's fine for things like list() or dict() since those have a 'natural' state, empty < 1312000944 30200 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I think we can sum this up as "typing is not a replacement for typing". < 1312000945 949903 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the 'natural' state of a number? < 1312000949 517752 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: (1) bloat (2) reassignment is icky (3) giving something a value but hiding that value is icky (4) weird < 1312000973 135226 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: ++... to that one statement, your language is still gross. < 1312000976 17600 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: very minor advantage for boolish ints over bools: you can retrofit a third value onto your booleans without breaking memory layout compatibility < 1312000977 774072 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :WE ARE STILL AT WAR. < 1312000987 933882 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you have a strange definition of advantage < 1312001001 514411 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the third value of booleans? < 1312001003 598269 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :FILE_NOT_FOUND? < 1312001011 614893 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: "not created by the player in a bones file" < 1312001018 729922 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: So you're saying numeric types should not be instantiable without an explicit value. < 1312001021 218196 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you want an enum then < 1312001023 45355 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar yes < 1312001026 827350 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was how they retrofitted a bugfix onto NetHack without changing the bones file layout < 1312001046 134038 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais aah < 1312001047 91812 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, that's fair. It also doesn't play terribly nicely with generic programming, but it's sensible. < 1312001051 438088 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's like the empty fields in ip packets < 1312001053 650843 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :future expansion space < 1312001070 748085 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: it's also an awful fix to the problem in general < 1312001073 363834 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: why doesn't it < 1312001080 364356 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell has plenty of generic libraries, and no "default value" because not every type has a value < 1312001084 167119 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not every type has a sensible default value < 1312001086 109307 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you need future expansion space, add it separately rather than randomly fitting it into booleans and only booleans < 1312001158 347003 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right (3) on my list of ick should also include something about default values being icky :) < 1312001196 184637 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure about that < 1312001209 987676 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Alright, fair enough. I just like zero-initialisation, for immutable values anyway, because, well, you've got to initialise them to something. < 1312001230 213201 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not everything has a zero. < 1312001237 589748 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: you make initial value explicit < 1312001250 980648 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: want 0-initialization? thing = 0. bam. < 1312001255 172110 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, not everything does, but ints and floats do, which is what I'm talking about. :P < 1312001269 694263 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why have ints < 1312001272 398130 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: And that is what you would do in almost all circumstances. < 1312001275 964754 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't NaN make a more sensible default for floats? < 1312001280 136777 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: what about the other ones? < 1312001281 382212 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais: no < 1312001284 780819 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything has a zero < 1312001285 419661 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: what, exactly, do you use instead of ints < 1312001286 243224 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: why even have syntax for those other ones? < 1312001291 552198 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on how you define everything < 1312001293 282284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :signalling NaN, at that < 1312001296 78787 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais: NaN propagates and turns more values into NaN < 1312001298 207358 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you get an error if you try to use it < 1312001306 151295 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: what do you use instead of ints < 1312001306 345372 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: that's exactly what you want, isn't it? < 1312001323 59864 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :VHDL initialises signals to U, which propagates and turns other things into Us < 1312001323 949588 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais: you want to keep NaNs out of your floating point system < 1312001336 623679 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: yes, you do, which means that it'd be obvious if you failed to initialise properly < 1312001346 291764 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: you want to keep uninitialized values out of your programs < 1312001392 417419 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like arguing over whether /0 should explode or not I guess < 1312001429 72959 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais: NaNs are also particularly slow to process ofc < 1312001446 77940 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :just force programmers to supply an initial value < 1312001452 438178 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything solved < 1312001483 783735 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :half of the time it's going to be 0 < 1312001500 823156 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :then people can make it 0 half the time :) < 1312001513 779332 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like it's even more typing than float() < 1312001519 89533 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: you don't _want_ to process uninitialised values < 1312001546 203402 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, they could end up being NaNs < 1312001588 191099 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, as in not explicitly initialised < 1312001595 895820 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so signalling NaN is a good default value for a float < 1312001599 340750 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that it complains if you use it < 1312001653 231962 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a firm believer in not paying for things you don't use, though. If a programmer wants to create an uninitialised (mutable) value of some type, I think they should be allowed. < 1312001671 713858 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it should be undefined < 1312001680 762357 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That counts as initialisation. < 1312001683 4745 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than 0-initialized or what-have-you < 1312001688 317651 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think normally you either want to initialize to 0, or it doesn't matter cause you're going to overwrite it, or you want to initialize to a specific value and you're going to remember to initialize it < 1312001692 265292 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is undefined in the sense of "could be anything". < 1312001696 506044 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1312001707 319536 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not undefined in the sense of "this is a special undef value that will trap if you use it". < 1312001716 902985 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I know < 1312001719 797986 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int x; return x // RNG in evincar's language < 1312001724 488378 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my philosophy I want to keep NaNs and other "exploding values" out of my program as much as possible < 1312001762 17167 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm not sold on "default to NaN" < 1312001762 985574 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: even if it makes them incorrect? < 1312001773 610351 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: it would only be NaN if you made an error < 1312001775 254550 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: do you prefer programs to fail noisily, or try to recover? < 1312001785 22743 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be a compile time error to use something not yet initialized < 1312001791 433089 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: actually, there are two sorts of NaN, one (which is often unimplemented) does indeed trap if you use it < 1312001794 953260 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: how could it be more incorrect than exploding the whole program < 1312001808 468947 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: if so, I hope the compiler's better at inferring it than gcc < 1312001811 971729 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: by giving bad values to things that quietly ruin everything < 1312001817 379285 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess they could be NaN in debug and 0 in release < 1312001820 459823 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to add =0 on declarations quite a bit just because gcc doesn't realise it's always initialised before use < 1312001830 914846 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: you should not be able to create something initialised, it is by definition useless < 1312001831 644533 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it can't infer it in general, but it could do quite a lot better than it currently does < 1312001836 658284 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I was going to add "...at the language level, of course, not like signalling NaN." < 1312001843 586876 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: say, a bad 0 somewhere cleared all your favourite files. wouldn't exploding be better? < 1312001852 474069 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then I was like "nah, no one'll care". < 1312001867 777790 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was talking about signalling NaN < 1312001891 356832 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: but exploding will clear the current thing you were working on 100% time < 1312001901 255754 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: if it exploded, it'd probably take out not all your files, but the disk they were on, most of the computer, and possibly even some of the table it was resting on < 1312001922 473590 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are we using exploding and not exceptions? < 1312001945 792940 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at work they turn off exceptions < 1312001954 452784 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1312001957 672272 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this why you're crazy < 1312001981 469041 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1312001991 396451 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :patashu: I don't know the reason, but it's probably performance on shoddy Arm platforms < 1312002030 696516 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least use them during development if not during production :o < 1312002132 583775 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312002261 522894 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312002261 575013 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the system they have is based on warnings < 1312002266 906620 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the system they have is based on warnings < 1312002282 18815 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sets a global variable to an error code, right? < 1312002287 564586 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: on the thing again, I may be confused but, in the case of not assigning a value to something (just declaring it), you're using the var = type() syntax? If that's the case, why use assignment syntax for something that's really just a declaration (not entirely a rhetorical question) < 1312002296 732973 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :prints to an error console < 1312002309 931232 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :aah < 1312002379 717531 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: No, it'd be something like "v = mutable T()" if you didn't want initialisation. The point of assignment syntax in the general case is that things are immutable by default and everything is single-assignment, so declaration and assignment can be the same thing. < 1312002380 492605 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312002411 219748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does everyone think that ignoring exceptions except you print them to stderr / some other error log is at all helpful? < 1312002417 816509 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: ok, so in what case would you use the =whatever() syntax? < 1312002440 517626 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Average Programmer < 1312002451 135234 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even see why one of those would think it was useful < 1312002455 423765 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that NetBeans does it by default < 1312002456 74153 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: because they're bad < 1312002462 220355 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, what < 1312002464 570480 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to spend half my life deleting Logger imports < 1312002471 175278 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad netbeans, bad < 1312002485 654884 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: If you wanted a default instance of some specific type that's default-constructible (e.g., dict/list) or if you wanted a default instance of some unknown type that is. < 1312002488 275725 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: NetBeans can surround something with a try/catch block for every exception it could throw, which is useful < 1312002492 664608 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as often you'll want to catch all of them < 1312002501 655065 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the default impl it puts in for what to do when caught is to log it < 1312002508 454878 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it adds imports for Logger as a result < 1312002517 357560 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to go and delete the import if you're not using the default impl < 1312002526 927387 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say "instantiate(T) = { return T() }". < 1312002533 725469 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'd much prefer a throw NotImplementedException as the default, like it does for methods) < 1312002653 585692 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: in the former case, I'd think it'd be more useful for each of them to force explicit usage of said value (e.g. 0, empty). In the case of the latter, I guess it's a bit better, but having instantiations working like that is still icky. There was something else I was going to say but I forgot it. < 1312002728 109971 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: oh right. I can't think of any usages of generic instantiation unless you use something like typeclasses/interfaces < 1312002744 543478 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312002745 346663 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: e.g. Monoids < 1312002748 456551 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn < 1312002754 649642 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evincar: how does default initialisation help write generic code again < 1312002762 999192 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's really an application thing anyways < 1312002768 570864 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: eh? < 1312002795 260604 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: It really depends on the types involved, and I can't come up with a good example at the moment. < 1312002799 949507 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're writing for databases, you'd probably rather have your client app explode than corrupt the database < 1312002817 475333 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I just like uniformity and not violating the principle of least surprise. < 1312002831 7110 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :being able to conjure up a value violates my POLS < 1312002834 59396 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :POLS is code for "I like it" < 1312002841 773247 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is it uniform? < 1312002848 277943 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any more than forcing all types to have exactly one value is uniform < 1312002852 342595 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, it is, but ... that sucks < 1312002875 490607 :TeruFSX!~quassel@pool-214-156.res.carleton.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1312002877 747164 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I write sound code and having the app explode is much worse than any wrong sound I could be outputting < 1312002962 415219 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like for divide by zero, I don't care if it generates a wrong value, that's much better to me than stopping the whole application, which is pretty much the worst thing that can happen < 1312002971 378102 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just saying, 0 is a reasonable default for the numeric types I'm providing. It doesn't hurt anything to throw it in. < 1312002980 476292 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it hurts me < 1312002987 614311 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :For something that just makes sound I suppose that's alright < 1312002988 590846 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it hurts people like me < 1312002990 83183 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm fine with default to 0< < 1312002991 886447 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :For something handling data you don't want it to happen < 1312002993 757532 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Like for divide by zero, I don't care if it generates a wrong value, that's much better to me than stopping the whole application, which is pretty much the worst thing that can happen < 1312002999 445723 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: i don't suppose you write any mission-critical financial applications < 1312003000 390158 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :who see something like float() and don't know if it's 0 < 1312003002 682664 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have to look it up < 1312003005 486945 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :please, god, don't say you do < 1312003010 750378 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's needless bloat < 1312003011 178747 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't! < 1312003013 562484 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't sound like it lol < 1312003014 538832 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ughhhh < 1312003018 134610 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: ok < 1312003019 134803 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then do whateve < 1312003020 54956 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :r < 1312003024 199573 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't ordinarily go for 0-initialisation, but obviously immutable values are different. < 1312003037 345649 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I write sound plugins and games < 1312003042 706990 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the what second time you brought up immutable values < 1312003043 116721 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is 0 a good default value evincar < 1312003047 149084 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1312003047 558060 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when is 0 ever a useful value < 1312003050 588530 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :without giving it explicitly < 1312003052 365253 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does 0 have to do with immutable values < 1312003077 213448 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: dunno, in megazeux variables default to 0 and it's pretty practical that way < 1312003098 612012 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is your favourite language < 1312003103 85752 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am curious < 1312003108 940678 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: When I write "x = mutable T()", I expect an uninitialised mutable T. When I write "x = T()", should I reasonable expect an error or a default? < 1312003112 977808 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*reasonably < 1312003126 374338 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't used high level languages so atm it's C++ < 1312003138 697977 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1312003141 574334 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sound code is almost always C++ < 1312003162 638365 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i keep reading "sound" as "correct" and i start lunging for your throat with a knife < 1312003165 258043 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then I just sit in my hole < 1312003169 328236 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: heh.. it's almost like you chose the most mission non-critical things < 1312003178 897611 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow i was just about to say what elliott_ said but then elliott_ said it so i said this instead < 1312003189 94072 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean sounds and games < 1312003190 560422 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :iti: I don't want to work in a fucking bank :D < 1312003216 563743 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking bank eh < 1312003221 606343 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: i made an image the other day... which perhaps expresses the non-mission-criticality of music :D < 1312003221 752474 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought all the talk about indie gamers being universally terrible programmers was hyperbole < 1312003272 179752 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in the nature of the problem < 1312003280 530653 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: i highly advise learning a nice high-level language < 1312003283 261578 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: http://oi56.tinypic.com/xc7kes.jpg < 1312003301 214213 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: im worry for your programmer mind health < 1312003334 59174 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: atm I'm programming assembler :o < 1312003359 215989 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: you mean people who make indie games, or who play them? < 1312003361 315536 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: what does it mean < 1312003374 201626 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: it means music isn't mission critical :D < 1312003402 814427 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: quite an odd analogy < 1312003410 962969 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: in some ways it is < 1312003420 767302 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok well.. the blue thread.. represents the music and represents the programming < 1312003425 798731 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1312003429 350873 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if the thread is in one piece then it has no mistakes < 1312003455 573685 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :musician is using a laptop in a gig < 1312003461 466473 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the laptop cannot crash < 1312003465 781601 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1312003469 589826 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... < 1312003473 478919 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott_: you mean people who make indie games, or who play them? < 1312003473 832566 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :make < 1312003481 427259 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i made that image i had actual music in mind < 1312003491 895096 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sound plugins. < 1312003492 178321 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you code a synthesizer plugin for music making programs < 1312003494 795996 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're right < 1312003505 520380 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: for an extreme example, making a minor programming mistake isn't as bad as making tons and tons and tons of musical errors when the mission cares at all about the music < 1312003510 381741 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your plugin crashes, it crashes the whole music making program and the musician loses his song < 1312003519 929507 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :corollary: your plugin cannot crash < 1312003528 31837 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: the mission never cares about music! < 1312003535 246954 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: weird mission there < 1312003555 790767 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"music isn't mission critical when missions don't care about music": tautological?!?!?!?!?? < 1312003561 844071 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhmm < 1312003564 958280 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can it generate wrong output? sure, whatever < 1312003567 244597 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok lets say a guitar < 1312003575 230606 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :a guitar can afford to make mistakes < 1312003586 536546 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you make a really big mistake < 1312003589 411888 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or lots of them < 1312003595 277136 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: http://ompldr.org/vOW9wcg me irl in my hole < 1312003597 236326 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you suck.. < 1312003598 617811 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the string can snap < 1312003609 150231 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : if your plugin crashes, it crashes the whole music making program and the musician loses his song < 1312003615 561686 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :programs crash when the VSTs do? < 1312003617 741223 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think not < 1312003627 682705 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: not anymore < 1312003644 992720 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: image remains relevant, topical < 1312003645 690461 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but some early programs did < 1312003652 405306 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :its like uhh.. video can recover too < 1312003655 889744 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: took me whole minutes < 1312003666 194190 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: nice hole < 1312003676 960438 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: thanks < 1312003699 990918 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :its an idea i am really curious about... < 1312003710 100148 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is? < 1312003724 204907 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :in programming it is usually the case you need to get every instruction right < 1312003730 387884 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1312003734 864293 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that one mistake throws out the whole system < 1312003739 787278 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1312003747 247517 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever heard of minor bugs? < 1312003752 540061 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have. < 1312003754 422810 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they exist. < 1312003760 483300 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they wreak minor havoc. < 1312003779 772093 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but don't throw out the whole system. < 1312003793 95106 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a very tiny minor little bit perhaps nobody even cares about < 1312003801 290439 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok.. my postulates are wrong >:) < 1312003833 648647 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In music, mistakes don't take whe whole thing down no < 1312003839 846996 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They just stand by themselves < 1312003840 768624 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: I coloured it: http://ompldr.org/vOW9wdg < 1312003857 645613 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :squares < 1312003880 641314 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks sadder now < 1312003881 934025 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow < 1312003979 714260 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312004014 185179 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: http://ompldr.org/vOW9weA < 1312004033 322720 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ashes? < 1312004038 408189 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to ashes < 1312004039 977948 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that blood < 1312004043 662407 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-44.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1312004045 633048 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you dead < 1312004052 545164 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a statue < 1312004054 422555 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ompldr.org/vOW9weQ < 1312004056 907791 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so mjuch mysterys... < 1312004057 582975 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312004064 32249 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :its staring at me < 1312004067 565124 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and crying < 1312004070 906804 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tears < 1312004109 903524 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh jesus cufcking christ i made it disturbing < 1312004129 149006 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: < 1312004138 199741 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: http://ompldr.org/vOW9weg < 1312004145 679415 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :im disturbed < 1312004146 16303 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus < 1312004151 326884 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :its like chocolate < 1312004151 557739 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me this makes you scream < 1312004155 182445 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lmao < 1312004156 754412 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1312004161 329783 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the uh < 1312004162 850819 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :brown stuff < 1312004165 897975 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :reminded me of chocolate < 1312004169 999158 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that black < 1312004171 814576 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhh < 1312004175 207545 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :dark chocolate < 1312004189 239191 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the tan stuff looks real creamy and swirly < 1312004221 442943 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you hate chocolate or something < 1312004236 805295 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the face is disturbing though. maybe dark chocolate chips or currants in some sort of cream or white chocolate filling? < 1312004247 769583 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: i did an edit of it: http://oi51.tinypic.com/34h0z.jpg < 1312004260 947724 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_ sure looks mad there < 1312004264 237207 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: i... < 1312004313 238800 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's about that time. < 1312004325 767589 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll be back tomorrow, I guess. < 1312004355 22570 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1312004360 741208 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ompldr.org/vOW9xMQ < 1312004364 424494 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: deepness of soul edition < 1312004367 138959 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :w/ lens flare < 1312004374 987136 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that lens flare < 1312004377 693166 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1312004379 115103 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1312004390 135857 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :its deep < 1312004391 363478 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and soul < 1312004396 839544 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: i call it sweet elliott_ and hella hole < 1312004422 562832 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wheres your knife is it in the wole too < 1312004437 514405 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its inside my heart < 1312004513 157166 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: http://i.imgur.com/3brEm.jpg < 1312004545 443781 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a maze < 1312004550 165082 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ing < 1312004553 217013 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a soulcrishung maze < 1312004556 634990 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ing < 1312004627 659046 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312004655 879938 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: http://i.imgur.com/P5iCf.gif < 1312004676 250259 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa a ball < 1312004690 400019 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool... animation < 1312004706 982456 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"delay inserted to prevent evil cpu-sucking animation" oh come on gif < 1312004709 980531 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1312004710 907281 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gimp < 1312004716 891465 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :subliminal deepness of soul with lens flare messaging < 1312004816 534979 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am seeking a good gif editor on windows < 1312004832 78532 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres not enough i tells ya < 1312004840 761271 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gimp < 1312004846 853827 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gimp "good inough mfor pme" < 1312004855 207089 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :erxcept i use linux.... < 1312004897 629380 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recently downloaded gimp but havent really tried it < 1312004908 414060 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :its good inough mfor pme < 1312005055 204380 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312005184 278698 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312005383 799930 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312005393 52856 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Sgeo < 1312005397 697562 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you missed some good discussion < 1312005401 799939 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :about type systems and uh < 1312005402 952430 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :other stuff < 1312005431 543529 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1312005436 277164 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1312005444 756091 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo :( < 1312005452 505185 :TeruFSX!~quassel@pool-214-156.res.carleton.edu QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1312005470 96264 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :whens sgeo coming back i miss sgeo < 1312005557 635983 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312005621 580168 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1312005727 100270 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi < 1312005795 837604 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1312005803 158421 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i missed you < 1312005885 251927 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. < 1312005904 161911 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has no coherent response other than this one
< 1312005909 639724 :TeruFSX!~quassel@pool-116-152.res.carleton.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1312006025 675684 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312006032 231711 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :To all flamers: this is my first real texture pack, if you flame, I will report you. < 1312006063 770850 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatf slaming < 1312006076 899820 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :flsaingubdgmg < 1312006087 682127 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is not praising it.....flaming? < 1312006093 50270 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that trolling < 1312006122 84042 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :flammable < 1312006170 283232 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: i made you a persent http://ompldr.org/vOW9xNQ < 1312006236 582239 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1312006253 828066 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bible.gif < 1312006263 536822 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all this and more is possible with gimp < 1312006265 274233 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tm < 1312006358 854945 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think ImageMagick is much better than GIMP < 1312006380 391384 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes I use imagemagick for things. < 1312006386 129143 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i imagine itidus20 wants a graphical interface < 1312006405 765444 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :;_; < 1312006411 692963 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312006411 745204 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most insulting insult < 1312006426 415744 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :offensive offense? < 1312006428 692537 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I'm wondering if you can make games with gimp < 1312006432 370519 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1312006434 248359 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1312006450 458684 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in.. opening gimp.. and using no other software... produce some sort of game =)) < 1312006459 52550 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: well there's ais523's ms paint tic tac toe < 1312006468 911404 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1312006480 146817 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also happen to like METAFONT and I have made a program to combine METAFONT with ImageMagick. < 1312006492 217440 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: but um that's just using the flood tool's algorithm < 1312006499 715344 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's not really any other algorithms to do :P < 1312006524 331156 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :make gimp scripts < 1312006531 100012 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :turn them into games < 1312006536 450144 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :im being silly for the most part < 1312006560 404246 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... back in the old days i used spreadsheet macros to try to make interactive fiction < 1312006566 606131 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1312006585 49398 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made RPGs with spreadsheet macros < 1312006587 811542 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very good ones, though < 1312006611 49450 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is what drove me to support open standards < 1312006617 497642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they kept breaking with every new version of Excel < 1312006628 397070 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lmao < 1312006631 197122 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i was using lotus123 < 1312006677 729536 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: it even removed all the UI elements, to prevent cheating < 1312006687 507490 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it was probably possible anyway, say by holding down shift on load < 1312006706 615941 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, removing the entire UI gave more screen space for gamy stuff and hid the fact it was Excel, although I suspect it was obvious anyway < 1312006851 785792 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312007037 3734 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder what this java bug thing is < 1312007042 274017 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java 7 GA was released today, but as noted by Uwe Schindler, there are some very frightening bugs in HotSpot Loop optimizations that are enabled by default. In the best case scenario, these bugs cause the JVM to crash. In the worst case scenario, they cause incorrect execution of loops. < 1312007043 586857 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1312007046 862621 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good job oracle < 1312007062 983195 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"These problems were detected only 5 days before the official Java 7 release, < 1312007063 161464 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Oracle had no time to fix those bugs, affecting also many more < 1312007063 214301 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :applications." < 1312007063 611870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, Java puts crash > incorrect execution < 1312007063 683364 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1312007071 624807 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU MEAN LOOPS ARE BAD?? SORRY < 1312007073 989262 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ONLY FIVE DAYS < 1312007075 261374 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAN'T CHANGE IT < 1312007076 89536 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/Java/, one of the most enterprisey languages in existence < 1312007088 814746 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: umm, isn't that fairly Javay? < 1312007095 513982 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java doesn't let you do ANYTHING loosely < 1312007110 853625 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is java still cool with typecasting < 1312007113 204385 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what have it < 1312007119 668519 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I know, I was taking a potshot at the crashing-is-worse-than-returning-a-random-number opinion < 1312007137 715809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: it throws ClassCastException if you try to cast something into a class that can't describe it < 1312007159 492467 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :snazy < 1312007208 504213 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312007298 195942 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: now just do it a few seconds later... < 1312007315 867145 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, scrollback exists < 1312007489 708204 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312007681 712273 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although METAFONT is designed for font making, you can use it to draw other things too. < 1312007850 675205 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312007984 758581 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312008134 880285 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how long will fib 99999 take to compute naively? < 1312008152 946150 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: you mean via the recursive algorithm that's O(2^n)? < 1312008157 89479 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1312008159 142399 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :O(2^n) where n is 99999 < 1312008169 329050 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries 999 instead :-D
< 1312008175 952508 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even that'll take far too long < 1312008190 134236 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1312008196 327068 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid exponentials < 1312008200 468855 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :99 should terminate within my lifetime, right? < 1312008238 427394 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's about an octillion < 1312008241 559957 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so probably not < 1312008253 129180 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is trying to test memoisation...
< 1312008253 605163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was using 10 to test may naive fibonacci impl < 1312008258 292097 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even that took far too long < 1312008258 811804 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure it's actually memoising < 1312008271 174573 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need a value that the naive fib goes slowly at, but not too slowly :-P < 1312008297 839106 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :memoised 100 is faster than unmemoized 10 < 1312008310 313610 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, what is up with -ise vs. -ize in that line? < 1312008325 228299 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unmemoisation is so american < 1312008349 383540 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Data.Memoization.StableName> fib 19 < 1312008349 601078 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :4181 < 1312008349 887581 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Data.Memoization.StableName> fib' 19 < 1312008349 940360 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :34 < 1312008357 939877 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, memoisation shouldn't change behaviour, right? < 1312008362 182481 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1312008374 135573 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fib(19) is not 34 < 1312008384 391998 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know offhand if it's 4181, but it wouldn't surprise me < 1312008384 478423 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has no idea what happened there
< 1312008389 621723 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312008460 712816 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, _something_ is wrong < 1312008475 565276 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coincidentally, I implemented memoized fibonacci in ICA (and thus VHDL) a few days ago < 1312008485 808763 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to celebrate the addition of RAM-like arrays < 1312008494 203896 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as opposed to tuple-like arrays) < 1312008498 502014 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION celebrates, can i have the compiler source code now
< 1312008514 851525 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least a picture of the synthesisation result :D < 1312008515 614652 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, it's not ready for release yet, and I don't have permission to release it either < 1312008536 232994 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and FPGAs look the same no matter what program is on them < 1312008563 508176 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1312008651 7896 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: surely a synthesiser can draw some kind of graph for you < 1312008675 875756 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can, but it basically just always looks like a splodge on the page < 1312008679 694407 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no matter what the actual circuit < 1312008698 661032 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1312008855 944284 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, random @ thought: I don't think it can have a "native machine word" type < 1312008882 94228 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but such a type isn't very useful unless you're doing low-level stuff anyway < 1312008893 110989 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's useful for smallish integers < 1312008936 51396 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, in practice, (smallest type that holds the integer) will be fastest unless the processor has no instructions for manipulating it < 1312008940 404253 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: anyway, you were meant to ask me why; we are no longer friends < 1312008946 876796 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, sure, I guess so < 1312008948 913790 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: no, it's obvious < 1312008953 293679 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what's the reason? < 1312008958 16066 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it was non-obvious to me < 1312008958 264103 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :network transparency < 1312008964 754130 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1312008967 323826 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know more about @ than I do < 1312008969 108888 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the type's size might be different on different computers < 1312008974 956637 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, that's not the problem < 1312008977 519650 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's perfectly okay < 1312008985 594155 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, you could translate at the boundary, I suppose < 1312008986 472901 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the problem is that the type could change underneath you mid-function < 1312009000 425506 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because a program might migrate to another system < 1312009005 342019 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note: this is great for writing viruses < 1312009027 655831 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :just make it 64 bits < 1312009039 54954 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: gross < 1312009053 377301 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll just offer a few fixed-sized types and pretend they don't exist and tell everyone to use bignums < 1312009057 836421 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1312009091 782598 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a large part of @'s core design is me having a weapon sufficient to make people code @ objects however I want < 1312009095 662316 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently, the stern glare will suffice. < 1312009100 813244 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if CakeProphet starts using @, I may have to purchase firearms. < 1312009117 120727 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if Microsoft starts promoting it, then it's time for tactical nukes < 1312009138 769594 :TeruFSX!~quassel@pool-116-152.res.carleton.edu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1312009139 224179 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : please don't hurt anybody < 1312009177 728643 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i'll just be you from now on < 1312009197 86159 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1312009303 696078 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if this "introspection box" model actually makes any sense < 1312009304 300243 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312009315 776375 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, you can't have < 1312009317 881271 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :box :: a -> Box a < 1312009327 404759 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can break parametricity like so: < 1312009347 133878 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohNo :: (a -> b) -> (a -> b) -> Bool < 1312009352 891222 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohNo f g = box f == box g < 1312009361 205608 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming the box on code compares the ast) < 1312009378 732447 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but like < 1312009384 467948 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you also can't have < 1312009389 195109 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolGimmeABox :: Box a < 1312009392 840754 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because WHAT DOES THE BOX CONTAIN... < 1312009396 677148 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this Box? < 1312009404 959263 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rule is something like... if you create an object you can box it < 1312009408 787830 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's hard to define create < 1312009411 433679 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :really hard < 1312009420 206523 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: umm, do you know what @ is < 1312009420 622699 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: are you sure you can == on boxes like that? < 1312009430 341851 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you remember what a box is :D < 1312009437 124806 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: in what context < 1312009441 416796 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you look like you're acting like boxing is a monad (perhaps subconciously), and it isn't < 1312009446 766621 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: there's only one context < 1312009453 616795 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, no, I don't < 1312009462 406606 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok, well, that's not what a box is in this context < 1312009473 552760 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I was thinking: in @, I want to be able to do things like examine the ASTs of running programs < 1312009477 880949 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and inspect arbitrary objects < 1312009480 443835 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all that jazz < 1312009491 450889 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: BUT I don't want code to be able to, say, look at the AST of a function it's passed willy-nilly < 1312009496 438823 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that breaks parametricity, security, and all sorts of things < 1312009504 330994 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a box is like a security checkpoint? < 1312009510 602068 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so I was thinking that (Box a) represents something you can fetch an a out of, and that also encodes... meta-information about it < 1312009514 86037 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually an Antibox < 1312009518 907921 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it lets you look inside a value < 1312009521 353608 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, yes < 1312009525 650857 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so e.g. < 1312009528 987361 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: ok. It's a simple with unknown historical origin often rendered as a letter "a" where the upright protion of the letter extends down and around until it is a near-complete circle, and that is generally taken to mean "at", and is called a "whirlpool" by the INTERCAL manual < 1312009530 735348 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ast :: Box a -> LolAST < 1312009533 605923 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unbox :: Box a -> a < 1312009533 914998 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1312009534 401031 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feather actually has a rebox operation, that you can apply to an unboxed value < 1312009538 90906 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :please don't ask me how it works < 1312009544 254316 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that unbox could also be called eval < 1312009545 404899 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose < 1312009559 699754 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: anyway, the question is just -- how do you actually create a box? < 1312009563 215410 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :talking about comonads? < 1312009567 282366 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: when elliott_ refers to @ treating it as a proper noun, it's a placeholder for the eventual name of an as-yet-unnamed OS he's working on < 1312009569 893022 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: not quite < 1312009591 607308 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he's going to retroactively go over glogbot's logs and substitute the name once it's actually decided < 1312009600 735791 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which will make my last-but-two line seem very confusing < 1312009609 318852 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: I may have been lying) < 1312009610 679394 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you knowm y s,ecret < 1312009617 152491 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasprivate,, with Gregor,, < 1312009619 617463 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he would create the logbot,,, < 1312009624 746480 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so the suspicion it will involve feather as an essential part is well-founded? < 1312009625 36611 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and force tunes to archive all their old logs by emailing them,,,,, < 1312009627 950615 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i would get the sed,,,,,,, < 1312009629 515312 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info JOIN :#esoteric < 1312009630 819387 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHO < 1312009631 917947 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BETRAYED ME < 1312009640 65423 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :RGAGAARGAUREWIGEIWRIEWRGAWGRIAEWRWIERGAW\ < 1312009640 723421 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: nobody, I just guessed < 1312009645 176909 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no < 1312009649 237648 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION smashes individual things to pieces
< 1312009652 478566 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feather and @ are fundamentally incompatible, as far as I can tell < 1312009653 986306 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now everything dies < 1312009657 29747 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which doesn't surprise me, or even worry me < 1312009658 986714 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: really? < 1312009667 438319 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, I'd be more worried if they meshed together well < 1312009678 849937 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: it's the network transparency that really kills it < 1312009681 635696 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feather doesn't like I/O < 1312009687 569275 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even more than Smalltalk doesn't like it < 1312009697 219357 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, you can model @ as just one big happy machine with way too much computing power < 1312009703 715525 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and slow wires, I suppose, but who cares about speed < 1312009712 970568 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even if you abstract away the I/O, it'd have to be able to return to a continuation < 1312009717 323181 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, shades of scapegoat (in that every repository could fit together) < 1312009717 393992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :across the entire network < 1312009723 665966 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1312009725 255954 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, @ reminds me of scapegoat a bit < 1312009725 327539 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312009740 919025 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you've been injecting similar ideas into both projects < 1312009752 509482 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how versioning in @ will work, if it'll have a separate VCS for "documents" and just regular objects, or what < 1312009754 390936 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the two would coexist quite well, at least < 1312009758 827846 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to avoid thinking about it right now < 1312009763 778120 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : 546) Speaking of the CiSRA puzzles, anyone want to form a team i avoid my duties by carefully never registering to anything new < 1312009764 914784 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it feels like another Can of Worms < 1312009766 762623 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, versioning is a much more minor problem < 1312009779 437121 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you missed the point where someone else mentioned the word "duty" < 1312009781 584708 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then getting the thing working in the first place < 1312009790 313851 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: fix it :P < 1312009796 629250 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I was about to say "but versioning is a _huge_ problem", but then I realised that there are even bigger problems... < 1312009808 778372 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1312009810 438742 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...you realize that would be inconsistent with the quote, right? < 1312009812 284766 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, yes, I'm really unsure how to construct boxes... < 1312009818 735827 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, well < 1312009828 824027 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously if you have a boxed module < 1312009835 20359 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can get a boxed value out of it < 1312009867 748959 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229161009.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: i know they have, that wasn't the point though. < 1312009878 62708 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: moduleLookup :: (m :: Box Module) -> Key m a -> a < 1312009880 46692 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: or something. < 1312009890 680981 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1312009892 220618 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: moduleLookup :: (m :: Box Module) -> Key m a -> Box a < 1312009895 574119 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's just another way to refine a box < 1312009902 932963 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose that's all you really can do < 1312009906 399796 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it feels like if you have < 1312009909 500191 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let f x = ... in ... < 1312009910 875490 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a bit ofcode < 1312009914 565825 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can't get a box unless you have one to start with < 1312009916 204422 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have the "right" to box it right there and then < 1312009920 637021 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, that may be true < 1312009920 721647 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that they should be originally created by the compiler < 1312009925 133554 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh oh,boxes are starting to feel fundamental < 1312009932 658083 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[asterisk], boxes < 1312009945 803400 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and comonadic < 1312009952 895327 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you really like comonads ;D < 1312009984 841254 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't actually know comonads, i just know they are easy to unwrap but not wrap < 1312009996 655390 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so i know maybe the base definition < 1312010007 451310 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also that moduleLookup frightened me, when did dependent types happen? < 1312010012 907267 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they are probably inevitable... < 1312010036 464013 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a feeling the design would be impossible to realise without them; as in, it'd turn out to be impossible for the user to create a function, or something < 1312010090 318707 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ah, hmm, there's a problem < 1312010097 155256 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in that, every boxed type has a different API < 1312010103 510771 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's actually a typeclass of some kind < 1312010126 99735 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :class Boxable a where { data Box a; unbox :: Box a -> a } < 1312010135 929393 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I need a better name than box < 1312010141 406751 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you may be thinking too Haskell < 1312010142 76278 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's sort of like an xray < 1312010151 318271 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I'm dubbing you King Vaporware < 1312010157 478828 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, it's obviously not a single unified Box type for every single type < 1312010158 263730 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: k < 1312010174 445642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: what did you call those (executable, source) pairs that you used in your Underload compiler? < 1312010175 78389 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so it's a type family of some kind < 1312010181 903469 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, I didn't < 1312010185 194627 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh < 1312010186 990385 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I called the flattened quotations blimps < 1312010190 288578 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's a separate thing < 1312010190 529559 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, give this the same name as those < 1312010194 160194 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's the same concept < 1312010198 369912 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's go all Prolog-style with naming < 1312010207 219844 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and agree that we can unify two names even if we don't know what they are yet < 1312010210 177146 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more like just source < 1312010212 962527 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and unbox is kind of like eva < 1312010214 377280 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :l < 1312010223 798131 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, I suppose we have to call them _1, _2, etc < 1312010225 974677 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: isn't @ already pretty prolog style with naming? < 1312010227 513187 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe @, @1, @2, etc < 1312010229 797426 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: yes < 1312010231 35054 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :name_of_@(X) < 1312010235 371565 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1312010236 900740 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :name_of_@(@) < 1312010258 888537 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like writing name_of_X(X) < 1312010264 160644 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep :D < 1312010275 199023 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be name_of_future_operating_system(@) < 1312010296 272340 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, xray would be a good name if it weren't such an ugly name < 1312010339 809097 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a nice name for an xray < 1312010354 991254 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it's also like stripping the debug info (unxraying, that is) < 1312010356 548571 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : "millennia" -- are we talking about a programming language called Sanskrit, or Sanskrit itself? :D < 1312010360 172745 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: haha < 1312010367 764812 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure there's a standard name for something with debug info in < 1312010373 854807 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are talking about the closest thing sanskrit has to an official spec < 1312010374 274310 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :GDB a < 1312010385 904080 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: umm, really? not some programming language based on sanskrit? < 1312010396 736226 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :contrary to what sys/user.h says, GDB is not the only debugger in existence < 1312010396 919636 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, real sanskrit. < 1312010397 43915 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312010414 385495 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people write official specs for non-programming languages? < 1312010417 405712 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : too much into it. Don't use it for anything other than GDB unless < 1312010417 458139 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : you know what you are doing. */ < 1312010418 662906 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1312010419 683064 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm < 1312010419 886661 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than Lojban, I mean? < 1312010422 98334 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/* The whole purpose of this file is for GDB and GDB only. Don't read < 1312010422 153559 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : too much into it. Don't use it for anything other than GDB unless < 1312010422 153759 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : you know what you are doing. */ < 1312010429 647664 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, French is "strictly controlled" (ha ha) < 1312010430 434207 :nisstyre_!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info JOIN :#esoteric < 1312010431 292356 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1312010439 81435 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Taneb, we're discussing @, run while you still can < 1312010443 394657 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1312010450 378366 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't know what @ is! < 1312010458 122875 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lucky < 1312010497 219290 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: 400 B.C. at least one person did. mind you iiuc he ignored many parts of the language, concentrating on morphology and inflection. < 1312010536 561715 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: call it heatvision < 1312010554 11733 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that just computational linguistics? < 1312010555 44784 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :defrost :: Heatvision a -> a < 1312010569 740938 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lol < 1312010635 926368 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, this is definitely getting moe confusing < 1312010645 661777 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO MOE < 1312010657 821701 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what's @! < 1312010669 663318 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: stop it stop it stop it < 1312010683 84230 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either you tell me or I install Haiku < 1312010696 297010 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's it @ < 1312010765 254820 :nisstyre_!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1312010769 416109 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: ok < 1312010805 900392 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :From an SD card! < 1312010806 179571 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info JOIN :#esoteric < 1312010885 153031 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is one of the less usual threats I've seen < 1312010885 337577 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312010900 302557 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm mildly sleep deprived! < 1312011128 348818 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: boxes seem to describe the nature of description itself < 1312011137 80791 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, interpretation brackets are this < 1312011141 464733 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Syn <-> Sem < 1312011147 260087 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but more Syn -> Sem than the other way < 1312011155 715049 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I can't type them, and are not sure if they're in Unicode < 1312011162 236043 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they look like [[ ]] but squished-together a bit < 1312011165 438111 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1312011171 6534 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but more Syn -> Sem than the other way < 1312011178 124738 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\llbracket \rrbracket in LaTeX, I think < 1312011180 651463 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by that I'm just saying that Sem -> Syn doesn't get back all the information < 1312011181 371677 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I've typed them too much < 1312011184 908471 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I need to find a larger memory device < 1312011186 352313 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, ah < 1312011193 773301 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there actually _is_ a function (a -> Box a) < 1312011195 489495 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for all a < 1312011205 696541 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it simply constructs a pathological box, one consisting of a single object reference < 1312011208 948005 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that reference being the argument < 1312011247 133386 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, umm, I suppose not all objects are comparable, as they might contain references to non-comparable objects < 1312011249 735906 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's problematic < 1312011266 213586 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't see why you _shouldn't_ be able to do that pathological version < 1312011272 278352 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the analogy being, Sem -> Syn < 1312011275 198557 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Syn -> Sem does the actual evaluation < 1312011279 656209 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can always construct the simple lambda result back < 1312011326 599864 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312011354 236073 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: help what does a box do < 1312011363 129700 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: haha at the reference < 1312011515 389424 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what have I done :( < 1312011693 758888 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312011750 333696 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think you _do_ create boxes by composing them from scratch: that's called programming < 1312011764 823643 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose so < 1312011776 922864 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's just manipulating an AST with "more info" < 1312011784 99388 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, you probably end up with a sort of lazy compile, don't you? < 1312011804 156265 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm beginning to wonder if a box is just the AST, and unboxing it compiles one step < 1312011816 335221 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you can certainly convert a box to an AST < 1312011823 968849 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what differs it < 1312011832 678783 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... the box of, say, a key-value table, isn't an AST < 1312011838 234927 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hmm < 1312011839 946135 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :better analogy < 1312011847 40378 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the box of a record (Haskell-style) isn't an AST < 1312011851 727297 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it sort of is, but it's simpler than that < 1312011859 504587 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a mapping from boxes of keys to boxes of values < 1312011863 126981 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where key is a name < 1312011868 74834 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so actually not boxed, just the name < 1312011870 38854 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- < 1312011870 940475 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :+-+- < 1312011897 828153 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been up and down my house and finally found a bigger memory device < 1312011975 830646 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you've now thoroughly confused me < 1312011981 230906 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with only a few lines < 1312012021 650518 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Å ÒÝ Ö < 1312012021 796764 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ö× ̧ ÓÙÖ× ÐÚ × Ò < 1312012021 848842 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ÐÙ ̧ Û ÐÐ Ú ÕÙ ×Ý Ð1 < 1312012021 849011 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ò Ý Ø × ×Ø o Ï Ø × Ð Ø Ó Ø < 1312012021 849121 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ÙØÝ Ó ÙÒ < 1312012022 651571 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1312012024 684938 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ø ÓÒ Ð ÔÖÓ Ö ÑÑ Ò Ý Ø Ø Ñ ÐÐ Ø × ÔÖ Ñ Ø Ú × Ú < 1312012026 837072 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ò < 1312012028 683665 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ÀÓÛ < 1312012030 645897 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Ò Ø ÙÒ×Ô < 1312012032 750709 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ¬ < 1312012034 608677 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ÔÖÓÓ Ó Ð Ø ÓÒ× < 1312012036 690105 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ó ÙÒ× È Ö ÓÖÑÁÇ < 1312012038 729225 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Ö < 1312012040 616660 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ø Ö × < 1312012042 633174 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ò ÔÖÓÚ < 1312012044 618271 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :À ×Ø < 1312012048 654712 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ý < 1312012050 717373 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ò Ø ÖÓÛÒ ÓÙØ Û Ø Ø < 1312012052 621821 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ø Û Ø Ö Ì × Ö Ù×1 < 1312012054 594132 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ø ¬ Ð < 1312012056 626820 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ö Ø < 1312012058 592493 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ×Ñ×o Ì < 1312012060 705267 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ý × Ò < 1312012062 622621 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ò Ò Öo < 1312012064 710596 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1312012066 606059 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1312012068 584596 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not helpful, Evince < 1312012070 644749 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can't copy it, don't pretend to < 1312012089 10197 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312012126 716120 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I un-write-protect an SD card? < 1312012207 179769 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's normally a little plastic tab on one of the edges < 1312012210 966 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you move it to the other position < 1312012211 987235 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you could un-write-protect it you could write to it and so it wouldn't be very well write protected < 1312012217 360698 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :very small, normally about a millimetre square < 1312012229 298532 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tomorrow's computer viruses will extend robotic arms from your computer to fiddle with the SD card to infect it!! < 1312012233 94212 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got it < 1312012303 861432 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312012311 397592 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks < 1312012318 801971 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, that's what that does < 1312012397 305162 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb, installing Haiku < 1312012428 986085 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312012501 537686 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happens next??? < 1312012507 557518 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haiku < 1312012508 837750 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an operating system < 1312012510 951082 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't do haikus < 1312012541 273861 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote Tomorrow's computer viruses will extend robotic arms from your computer to fiddle with the SD card to infect it!! < 1312012544 799871 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :551) Tomorrow's computer viruses will extend robotic arms from your computer to fiddle with the SD card to infect it!! < 1312012544 885925 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :275 < 1312012553 419592 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: only 12 syllables < 1312012560 671124 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haiku syllable < 1312012562 9650 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an operating system < 1312012565 21516 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can do haikus?? < 1312012575 553576 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow is that actually right haha wow < 1312012579 678049 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't even try first time < 1312012581 571990 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or second time < 1312012589 405729 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also technically needs to mention the name of a season to be a haiku < 1312012591 759997 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure the syllables are a necessary, not sufficient, metric for a haiku < 1312012593 81963 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but people keep disregarding that < 1312012596 410324 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1312012604 246854 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think 5/7/5 + season name is sufficient < 1312012608 486916 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it might not be a very /good/ haiku < 1312012635 318453 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could start off "haiku in summer", then it'd work < 1312012638 924678 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haiku syllable < 1312012640 428283 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an operating system < 1312012642 975405 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can do haikus?? < 1312012644 337423 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :summer i think < 1312012644 798702 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not make whole lot of sense < 1312012648 640431 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yw < 1312012649 575394 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck < 1312012657 697563 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :damnit I laughted < 1312012658 200132 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: i laughed, but I'm not sure why < 1312012661 377946 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol you too < 1312012663 5305 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: I did too < 1312012677 169167 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck < 1312012678 709228 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :552) beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck < 1312012684 570815 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :three people laughed at it, so by definition it's funny < 1312012707 675478 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's very close to being a skit < 1312012709 140204 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probably carries enough context in just that quote for other people to get the joke, too < 1312012737 963447 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312012767 198506 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Start book at 8. Finish book and realise it's 2. < 1312012777 269844 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to have issues with "sleep". < 1312012802 107108 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you read for eighteen hours < 1312012808 767122 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, which 8? < 1312012814 14366 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or minus six hours < 1312012847 847805 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 works fine for me < 1312012848 738993 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1312012851 538386 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's your problem with it < 1312012865 483055 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: what < 1312012872 275082 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 pm, 2 am < 1312012878 84037 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just ruin the joke :( < 1312012880 781662 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :;_; < 1312012886 723429 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously pikhq meant twenty four hour times < 1312012969 934212 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy will now never speak again after that haiku because he can never top it < 1312012970 78447 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312013129 736193 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you should play EVE Online; you've already mastered the playing of Excel as a game, so EVE can only be a step up in fun from that < 1312013137 760238 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a minor one < 1312013141 672377 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: haha < 1312013157 316522 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you have it the wrong way round, though < 1312013169 4861 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I wrote was trying to implement a game engine using Excel < 1312013171 539311 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean experienced EVE players should go for the raw multiplayer Excel experience? < 1312013174 484826 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that too < 1312013179 251882 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas EVE Online is trying to implement a spreadsheet in a game engine < 1312013189 999504 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd expect someone who enjoyed one to dislike the other < 1312013201 39224 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is playing EVE Online really like < 1312013208 851701 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gave up on EVE roughly when I realised that not only do you attack ships by right clicking them and choosing an item from a context menu, but you also do everything else by popping up windows and interacting with GUI widgets < 1312013214 290707 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it even has a browser window you can use < 1312013220 803382 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could probably use EVE as your only oS < 1312013221 564201 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS < 1312013223 515559 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :...in space < 1312013232 410162 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: you played it at all? < 1312013239 790151 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that surprises me and I'm not sure why < 1312013245 605303 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it has a free trial, so I played about five minutes of it < 1312013254 111853 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you just don't strike me as the sort of person to play MMOs, even free trials of them < 1312013264 482779 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but I do like my spreadsheets < 1312013273 505823 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, apparently EVE has a huge bias towards players who joined early < 1312013281 912211 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I /did/ play an MMO regularly a few years ago, I'm too embarrassed to tell you which, though < 1312013286 888175 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[asterisk]ago; < 1312013288 646976 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229161009.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1312013315 23303 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's either going to be World of Warcraft or some crazy tie-in to a TV series < 1312013317 976011 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229161009.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1312013324 759266 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: nope < 1312013332 387333 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1312013342 226412 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case, I probably won't even try to guess < 1312013397 514786 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312013493 260060 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: 20:00 to 02:00. Happy? < 1312013493 460020 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312013518 495271 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have not given me any new information < 1312013552 80589 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: ^ < 1312013553 319921 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry. < 1312013559 79470 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: NO < 1312013564 596273 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I *really* should disambiguate — I mean, I'm about as likely to use 24 hour time as 12 hour time, TBH... < 1312013798 518455 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: neopets < 1312013827 965129 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: does neopets even count as an MMO < 1312013831 667347 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1312013833 666285 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should start playing Neopets ironically < 1312013844 607164 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't play neopets ironically < 1312013845 546175 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never even knew it existed until I was far too old to be in the target market < 1312013846 585579 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd get super bored < 1312013854 101824 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: that's just super ironic < 1312013858 739192 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1312013863 945957 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note: sufficiently good irony is indistinguishable from sincerity < 1312013900 364085 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually had a Neopets account. I later gained a second digit in my age. < 1312013935 18674 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an account < 1312013963 475136 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had an account < 1312013964 791798 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :might still do < 1312013966 80597 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1312013966 644072 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote I actually had a Neopets account. I later gained a second digit in my age. < 1312013968 398715 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :553) I actually had a Neopets account. I later gained a second digit in my age. < 1312013969 271738 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :cba to find out < 1312013982 596346 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is Neopets, anyway < 1312013996 660108 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh you'll love this < 1312013997 46516 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's Neopets (do you actually not know?) < 1312013997 499976 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :google it < 1312014011 154675 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries Wikipedia
< 1312014011 728788 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312014020 950302 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they're like pet rocks, except instead of rocks, they're bits. also you can buy them accessories with rockcaret W bit money? < 1312014026 158150 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there are games to win money? < 1312014027 12703 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think. < 1312014028 697603 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it is old. < 1312014032 609532 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i think a scientologist runs it? < 1312014038 651115 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Revenue $30 million USD+ < 1312014043 19633 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is too much money for pet rocks < 1312014063 187281 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can pay them for a webmail address/ < 1312014073 499733 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a pretty random combination of things < 1312014141 403764 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah old is a pretty significant quality < 1312014142 121305 :madbr!~k@98.143.212.28 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312014151 855635 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :When it got started Tamagotchi was a fresh memory. < 1312014173 37822 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I always knew having a mad wizard design our water distribution plant was a bad idea." (From a Neopets-related "walkthrough"-style thing I hit a week ago while googling for something really completely different.) < 1312014213 662063 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It was the friggin' 90s. < 1312014228 677421 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. Nearing on 2000. < 1312014230 117069 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still. < 1312014243 168343 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd be before I really knew about the Internet < 1312014245 444495 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :These were primitive days, and Geocities was still vibrant. < 1312014250 300520 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tamagotchis are so great, i had one, i remember fuck all about it < 1312014268 582906 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the time I had been on the Internet for a handful of years. < 1312014280 724707 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :November 15, '99 < 1312014283 279088 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : three people laughed at it, so by definition it's funny <-- make that four < 1312014284 862380 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was the internet like in 98, i was on then but i don't recall it < 1312014295 845545 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to Our Lord Wikipedia < 1312014303 892222 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Comically simple. < 1312014308 20304 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: heh, you were probably consistently online before me, then < 1312014316 571158 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm not exactly surprised < 1312014319 646738 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew of its existence back then, and would even find a way to use it if I needed it < 1312014325 496068 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that was rare < 1312014327 97171 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: when did you discover the internet, five minutes ago? < 1312014334 330522 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: This predates *CSS*. < 1312014334 402003 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and mostly, I'd be doing email via someone else's account < 1312014349 390144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with permission, obviously) < 1312014360 94325 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: I'm still not entirely convinced it exists < 1312014377 133041 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, technology that lets you communicate instantly with people in a huge range of places around the world, that's science fiction stuff, right? < 1312014385 481175 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: *Google was not The Search Engine*. < 1312014395 473842 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no telephones do not count have you ever tried to make an international phone call that crosses continent boundaries?) < 1312014402 417120 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i have an asterisk? < 1312014407 468376 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :***** < 1312014409 98116 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what's it like (I haven't ever) < 1312014409 487496 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Neopets still look like a lesson in horrid web design? < 1312014410 346646 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here, have 5. < 1312014424 113988 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Yes. < 1312014431 778990 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1312014433 2851 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: when I tried to phone home from Canada, it took the phone over two minutes to even work out how much a call to the UK would cost < 1312014438 759933 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Also, at the time it was just normal web design. < 1312014453 20554 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then quoted an amount that was sufficiently large it'd have been inconvenient to pay with just coins < 1312014454 992547 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I had to give up < 1312014467 829955 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god what did i do < 1312014471 277401 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just because affording it would have been tricky, but because I had no real prospect of finding change < 1312014481 580728 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah international calls suck < 1312014491 681398 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The phone network sucks. < 1312014491 790927 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if that's the fault of Canada in particular, though < 1312014503 272302 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was perfectly sane and well-designed. In 1950. < 1312014506 621246 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :from Hungary, it took about five seconds longer than normal to connect < 1312014512 351393 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the price was noticeable but not insane < 1312014539 110247 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's within the EU, that's practically no distance at all < 1312014539 218896 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or 30-odd exponential increases in computing power ago. < 1312014589 346974 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dontaddquote but that's within the EU, that's practically no distance at all < 1312014629 205712 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really, circuit switching is just sad. < 1312014674 626398 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what are international calls from the US like? < 1312014677 626802 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :similar to Canada? < 1312014700 183192 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I literally do not know. < 1312014715 452627 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't blame you for never having tried < 1312014716 591705 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never had cause to call internationally. < 1312014724 562236 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have rarely had cause to even call long-distance. < 1312014731 91148 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you could use a payphone then not put money in it, that would be a relatively simple way to discover the time and cost < 1312014740 240425 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, wow, I forgot that long-distance calls existed < 1312014747 699055 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was in the single digits when I started using the Internet. < 1312014762 305817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the UK, they're now sufficiently similar to short-distance calls that most phone companies don't bother to distinguish between them < 1312014776 425328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the UK's quite small in terms of landmass, as countries go < 1312014778 413522 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cell phone companies still love doing them < 1312014792 693075 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the US, the phone company believes that you should bend over and take it up the ass without lube. < 1312014803 106103 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :free calling within the continent is not too uncommon in Canadian plans now < 1312014808 45510 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(landline, of course) < 1312014815 366528 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You think your cell phone companies are bad? < 1312014833 873653 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Okay, yeah, Canada also has that policy. < 1312014836 542704 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, you can make a short distance call on a cellphone? < 1312014849 743399 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all mobile phone calls are long-distance in the UK < 1312014866 887093 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No. Our companies insist on at least one more hole at the same time. < 1312014877 33144 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :All mobile phone calls to landlines are "same-distance" in Finland. I don't know if it's a long or short. < 1312014881 151363 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the US, cell phones are assigned entirely normal phone numbers within the area code for where you live in. < 1312014891 2177 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :typically, you get a cheaper price contacting a landline or another mobile phone on the same operator, and a more expensive price contacting a mobile phone with a different operator < 1312014928 568921 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : (no telephones do not count have you ever tried to make an international phone call that crosses continent boundaries?) <-- i phoned in my agora votes once (sadly through an answering machine) in the 90s. it was surprisingly easy. < 1312014942 416570 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1312014945 809523 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1312014950 933106 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's Norway to... New Zealand? < 1312014960 796118 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man < 1312014964 384656 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume Agora doesn't have a international dialling prefix of its own < 1312014965 960727 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should try to conference call all agoran players < 1312014967 752972 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we should definitely get it one < 1312014974 573816 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you live in /Canada/ < 1312014987 397636 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so? < 1312014999 842651 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has crazy telecom companies < 1312015016 49990 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'll call a foreign carrier who does cheap conference calling first :{ < 1312015051 558481 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you lied about Neopets and web design btw < 1312015057 49930 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not an example of bad web design < 1312015062 878438 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an example of horrible web design < 1312015068 678892 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably the worst part about the telephone network is that they have the audacity to charge even *trivial* costs per minute. < 1312015089 278375 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Do landline carriers still do that in the US? < 1312015091 462100 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you think they should charge just line rental? < 1312015096 264995 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Long-distance. < 1312015104 934730 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: How far is long-distance, typically < 1312015121 295634 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the phone situation in the UK, both landline and mobile, is that the tariffs are really complicated and have loads of exceptions < 1312015125 60215 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :making them very hard to compare < 1312015130 648921 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I have no idea. I call maybe 10 times a year. < 1312015139 411339 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: well it matters < 1312015147 399926 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually use landlines quite a lot < 1312015149 299468 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am ignorant! < 1312015157 280991 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: by the way, not only do cell phones have area codes, you get charged extra for being outside your home zone typically < 1312015160 222863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :relative to most of the people in this channel, anyway, I expect < 1312015168 950751 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: But, yes, they really should just charge line rental. < 1312015172 24758 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatar ephones < 1312015176 196032 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: help < 1312015190 319182 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The phone call *itself* is just a 56kbps stream over the Internet. < 1312015195 662528 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats hapeneng < 1312015200 192135 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't been paying attention < 1312015208 386522 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I'm beginning to wonder if North America's attitude to cellphones is "let's make these work as much like landlines as possible" < 1312015210 60267 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :something about phones and web design? < 1312015210 205768 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: whateis a phone < 1312015216 305383 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate hpoens < 1312015222 324841 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have one but i keep it off all the time < 1312015227 500785 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wherever steve gardner lived at the time < 1312015229 9962 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a man after ais523 < 1312015239 400561 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wat < 1312015249 905172 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: North America's attitude to international callling is also "let's make these work as much like intranational callling as possible." < 1312015258 799054 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: North America has a unified numbering scheme. < 1312015261 793460 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's moneygrab < 1312015272 183982 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: in response to my question about whether he phoned New Zealand from Norway < 1312015288 680018 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: international calling from Europe is very like intranational, too < 1312015290 631961 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: There's not country prefixes in the North American dialing plan. There's the North America prefix, and area codes. < 1312015300 688900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just dial double 0 then country code then number < 1312015306 335154 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then 7 digit numbers. < 1312015307 714391 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: People were used to phone service working like X, so they just kept that when cell phones arrived < 1312015311 314254 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For all of North America. < 1312015312 24259 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was good for them since they made money < 1312015312 855533 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like you dial single 0, area code, number for long distance < 1312015316 507030 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just number for short distance < 1312015320 623918 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there has been insufficient consumer pressure to switch < 1312015322 91365 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love how stupidly close inter and intra are < 1312015324 379169 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :0's like the ../ of the phone system < 1312015326 854394 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :although in Canada some new pressure is emerging < 1312015332 122171 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from foreign companies, no less) < 1312015364 723725 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, if I phoned myself starting with 0044, I wonder if I'd be charged more? < 1312015386 294365 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know you aren't on a mobile, starting UK numbers with +44 is common there < 1312015392 431557 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just in case you happen to move the phone outside the UK < 1312015399 106012 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it doesn't call the number in the wrong country < 1312015407 444669 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :we now actually have a mobile provider that offers unlimited tethering < 1312015420 834017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which of the three possible definitions of unlimited are you using? < 1312015430 507848 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, does it become limited again if you use too much bandwidth? < 1312015442 63898 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1312015442 704499 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :not AFAICT < 1312015444 914442 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ah, the joys of phone advertising in the UK) < 1312015460 768640 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1312015464 525840 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: that's what "fair usage policy" typically means in the small print of communciations advertising < 1312015470 105955 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not cheap, but it doesn't appear to be one-dimensionally unlimited < 1312015487 890174 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :another variation is unlimited except if you do certain things < 1312015498 371043 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, say, use Skype < 1312015502 107556 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: wat <-- my agora phone vote < 1312015546 198774 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do say they'll throttle you after 5GB/mo though, for the rest of the month, to 256 Kb/s up and 128 down, and you'll get a notice telling you they're doing that < 1312015560 671751 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: aha < 1312015563 138763 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :5GB on a mobile connection is a lot though < 1312015564 592382 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok < 1312015572 703177 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the "unlimited except if you use too much bandwidth" I was referring to < 1312015579 494919 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a massive throttle is similar to a cutoff < 1312015588 679134 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :256 Kb/s is still plenty < 1312015592 452385 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zero, one, infinity is so passe. the new thing is: zero, one, five million < 1312015600 239531 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :for simple stuff < 1312015636 476418 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's just 56k < 1312015639 987242 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a 2 in front < 1312015644 435745 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-D < 1312015652 185857 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which only makes a difference of a factor of 5 or so < 1312015659 936638 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"So it's just like two dialup modems." < 1312015662 787043 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info JOIN :#esoteric < 1312015673 291176 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: more like five of them, mathematically < 1312015679 411473 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but textually. < 1312015689 225115 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two of fifty-six kay. < 1312015695 22059 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't know the exact numbers, but I don't expect that's a ridiculously evil slowdown relative to normal < 1312015704 521494 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and they do throttle P2P traffic < 1312015719 953049 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this is semi-normal here, and to be expected on a limited bandwidth network < 1312015741 712409 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh, why is INVISIBLE MULTIPLICATION SIGN not in my Unicode character map thing? < 1312015750 147472 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted to write 256 < 1312015751 569830 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and still way better than you'll get from the major networks < 1312015763 23083 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Some only do the BMP < 1312015769 160700 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one does more than the BMP < 1312015775 774197 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure how far beyond it goes < 1312015787 314151 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you're just not seeing it < 1312015798 964671 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :a quick google doesn't show such a symbol at all < 1312015802 12822 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no INVISIBLE MULTIPLICATION SIGN even in my UnicodeData.txt. < 1312015804 504073 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I perhaps forgot what the symbol's called < 1312015813 799711 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure it exists, but I'm not convinced I got the name right < 1312015828 86740 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol 'invisible multiplication sign' < 1312015828 754207 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1312015830 762774 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the name does not contain the substring "multipli". < 1312015854 823949 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least 'grep -i multipli' on UnicodeData.txt gives a lot but nothing that sounds very invisible. < 1312015861 807236 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :U+2062 INVISIBLE TIMES < 1312015867 427450 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about grep -i invisible < 1312015868 780500 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, there. < 1312015890 446169 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: e.g. for placing between the π and the r in πr² < 1312015890 808626 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was the best of times, it was the of times < 1312015898 294032 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I figured but < 1312015898 855786 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :lmao < 1312015902 500219 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :also U+2061 FUNCTION APPLICATION, U+2063 INVISIBLE SEPARATOR, and U+2064 INVISIBLE PLUS < 1312015909 255849 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't invisible characters a huge huge threat? < 1312015911 778515 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :U+2061 FUNCTION APPLICATION? amazing < 1312015915 156244 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can disguise strings as being something else < 1312015922 149609 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, Haskell definitely needs U+2061 between all uses of function and argument < 1312015925 896450 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even better, /Agda/ needs it < 1312015952 823469 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :overloaded space defaulting to U+2061 < 1312015964 664101 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sometimes you need to disambiguate... < 1312015984 869586 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2⁢56kb/s < 1312015985 404588 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't there an april fools joke about overloaded space < 1312015987 889425 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1312015998 335027 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Also the telecom's site doesn't try too hard to hide the cap < 1312016011 646244 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://shop.windmobile.ca/productcatalog/dataplans/plandetails.aspx?id=infinite+laptop+q2+2011+promo(WINDCA) "See our Fair Usage Policy" is pretty highlighted < 1312016015 543362 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they generally hide it on their street adverts and not anywhere else < 1312016028 660071 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the principle that once people start buying something, they generally don't stop < 1312016037 809580 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :budget airlines operate on the same principle < 1312016112 519362 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I like this company's approach to terms of service. the words "Make sense?" actually appear in a ToS < 1312016144 95267 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I like their "get-a-phone" incentive < 1312016165 548263 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :they'll give you some part of the phone price off, and 10% of your bill goes towards it < 1312016172 238771 :elliott_!~elliott@95.149.243.211 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1312016173 309222 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So they don't need to lock you in with a multi-year contract < 1312016177 318890 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder why MEDIUM MATHEMATICAL SPACE is defined as 4/18em < 1312016178 568471 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is fairly standard among other providers < 1312016181 394238 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why the fraction isn't written as 2/9 < 1312016195 228342 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: in the US (and presumably Canada too) < 1312016197 84096 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1312016200 880027 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:55:12: also I like this company's approach to terms of service. the words "Make sense?" actually appear in a ToS < 1312016205 820046 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :good to know that marketing still works on people < 1312016206 904603 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very far from the norm in the UK, and has only started becoming popular recently < 1312016231 124542 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :multi-year contract in exchange for phone, that is < 1312016237 678985 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah < 1312016238 869618 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1312016240 941645 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, no contract is more common in the UK < 1312016244 778787 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: These ones aren'a a hideous mess of legalese < 1312016256 517821 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah. It's becoming a powerful marketing tool though < 1312016257 925585 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(instead, the prices go ridiculously high if you don't pay $10 a month, and you have to pay in advance) < 1312016265 294667 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, £10 < 1312016280 170444 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :"no contract" is becoming common in some ads < 1312016310 838874 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just wait until they catch up with some of the gimmicks UK ads have come up with < 1312016325 269762 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. realising that prepaid credit on a mobile phone was an arbitrary currency separate from real money < 1312016335 820539 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only problem is that this particular carrier has rather low coverage < 1312016337 77503 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so just advertising that you could pay £10 for £30 credit < 1312016344 186410 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and people thinking that it gave an advantage < 1312016353 71788 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they have to fight tooth and nail for infrastructure < 1312016357 990102 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, I just realised how little sense that makes just now < 1312016369 631445 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you saw the adverts too, presumably < 1312016373 122091 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the other carriers don't want to rent it out at anything close to reasonable < 1312016383 619020 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, but I turn my brain off for adverts, and usually concentrate on their aesthetic aspects < 1312016389 942358 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the products are quite irrelevant < 1312016392 811144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1312016409 171382 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get bored on the bus sometimes, so I often look at adverts while commuting < 1312016419 65178 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if any has changed my buying preferences, though < 1312016421 991639 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I saw them on TV < 1312016427 572913 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :television ads are so weird < 1312016437 779518 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in either direction; all the adverts bad enough to make me boycott something have been for something I didn't want to buy anyway < 1312016487 414494 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :when WIND actually covers Waterloo, I will like get a phone with them < 1312016509 376020 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :partially just to provide them money, partially just to avoid providing the competitors with money, and partially to get service < 1312016520 554401 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: how much are you being paid? < 1312016529 228597 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: At Google? lots < 1312016534 550513 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoosh < 1312016541 694923 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Of course it all has a mysterious habit of vanishing when I go back to school < 1312016550 54787 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think Tesco Mobile more or less won the advertising war there, because they managed to produce a great-sounding advert to advertise something that didn't cost them anything at all, nor give any advantage to their customers < 1312016577 930716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas the other mobile phone providers all had to actually provide complicated price breaks that nobody could work out the exact effect of < 1312016585 360117 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which presumably cost them something < 1312016597 680810 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mobile phone network adverts seem to have reduced recently < 1312016614 723089 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last big campaign I remember was Orange/T-Mobile each advertising that their customers could use the others' signal < 1312016655 662485 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was that something? < 1312016677 905675 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1312016711 741966 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1312016817 182424 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-07/msg01155.html < 1312016821 209552 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :RMS PANIC < 1312016884 112517 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no < 1312016987 236723 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1312016990 979806 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's going on < 1312016993 258422 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that link < 1312017047 658739 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: see http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-07/msg01085.html onwards < 1312017049 641396 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A TRAGEDY is what's going on. < 1312017097 748496 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that they're not releasing source code to emacs or something? < 1312017103 737895 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It is a GPL violation that you are not currently FIXING THOSE COORD MACROS. Or, uh, ADDING THE WATER COLOURING. BASICALLY ANY WAY YOU SLICE IT YOU ARE BAD < 1312017108 642471 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: a few source files are missing < 1312017113 783351 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :which ones? < 1312017130 26640 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: read the thread < 1312017141 619127 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some files that apparently themselves generate C (I think) code < 1312017151 534158 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to it's too boring :( < 1312017185 454146 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh it's some parser thing not having source code < 1312017190 314169 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, you can fully compile emacs from what they distributed as is, but it's not as easy to modify... certain things < 1312017243 838995 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it's a gpl violation for anyone to redistribute < 1312017578 380564 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :buy essays online said... < 1312017578 555202 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :real life is more interesting than virtual < 1312017578 629908 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:00 AM < 1312017625 151134 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warning.. warning.. GNU violation in sector 12 < 1312017653 510016 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1312017672 979789 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the gnus are rampaging < 1312017738 618509 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312017775 474394 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I gave up trying to install Haiku < 1312017836 663234 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is brainfuck Turing Complete with unbounced cell size but a tape size of 2? < 1312017858 871790 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure < 1312017865 486773 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can prime number encode an infinite number of numbers < 1312017868 751921 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :*prime factor < 1312017872 49367 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: see minsky machine < 1312017874 615729 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i don't think 2 is enough < 1312017877 658981 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait no < 1312017879 981155 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :bf isn't enough < 1312017880 55099 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :And use the other cell for condutional constructs < 1312017882 860768 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: no < 1312017885 508353 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? < 1312017888 221178 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :bf's operations aren't good enough for that < 1312017891 835582 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1312017897 348174 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1312017910 297113 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been shown to be turing complete with a tape size of 5 < 1312017910 369988 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 or 5 is enough iirc. it's somewhere on the wiki... < 1312017911 197145 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm, can't a minsky machine's registers be done by brainfuck? < 1312017912 512390 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :for every function you nest you need another for-conditional cell I think < 1312017921 177930 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, no < 1312017925 858548 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes, but you need more than one bf cell for one minsky register < 1312017938 778136 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1312017939 629348 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric : @__ You tried well. But then met failure. Try again. __@ < 1312017993 501838 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are wiki pages caps sensitive < 1312018002 241857 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically you cannot use a bf cell much without clearing it, so you sometimes need to copy information elsewhere < 1312018015 693579 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got the syllable counts wrong < 1312018091 505569 :derrik_!~xix@gprs-inet-65-9.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1312018148 504152 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-44.elisa.ee QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1312018149 118588 :derrik_!~xix@gprs-inet-65-9.elisa.ee NICK :derrik < 1312018150 490383 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frans Faase gives a procedure for translating 5-register Universal Register Machines into brainfuck programs using five cells [1]. < 1312018151 141984 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :this? < 1312018151 505399 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or hm maybe it's actually the problem of doing conditionals < 1312018156 439275 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.iwriteiam.nl/Ha_bf_Turing.html < 1312018167 616062 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you always need to end [...] on a 0 < 1312018182 420238 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :_and_ be in a consistent state < 1312018256 413298 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: mind you you only need 2-register (this is proved by a prime encoding), maybe something more efficient than 5 bf cells can do it. < 1312018275 595290 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 might be too tricky < 1312018299 753064 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Start with "Frans". Swap n with s "Frasn". Change r to a "Faasn". Change n to e "Faase". < 1312018386 799506 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :^scramble frans < 1312018386 852227 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fasnr < 1312018554 135381 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 2-register thing was mentioned in wikipedia's articles on counter machines < 1312018604 585104 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-9.elisa.ee QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204] < 1312018608 489677 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :or in other words < 1312018615 959509 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Frans". Swap cell 4 with cell 5. Load "a" into cell 2. Load "e" into cell 5. "Faase". < 1312018641 134369 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: you're just a few steps from a Smetana derivative there. < 1312018763 267823 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you _could_ do it with only 3, hm. < 1312018802 365558 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :another take on it is < 1312018841 691958 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Frans". Copy cell 5 into cell 4. Copy cell 3 into cell 2. Load "e" into cell 5. "Faase". < 1312018907 676281 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :by using that one-register with constant multiplication/division that is part of the proof that 2 with inc/dec suffice < 1312019064 575539 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-40.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1312019264 170515 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words, doing this with 3 bf cells instead of 2 minsky registers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_machine#Step_3:_Four_counters_can_be_simulated_by_two_counters. < 1312019290 256715 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: ^ < 1312019305 869179 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, the answer's... yes? < 1312019332 282311 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's "maybe". i haven't worked out if it actually works... < 1312019338 797924 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay < 1312019344 995820 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll stick to five cells for now < 1312019346 900738 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, i don't think 2 bf cells is enough. < 1312019500 424724 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there is simply not enough room then to leave the essential data unscathed, extract the conditional information you need _and_ end a [...] at the same time. < 1312019532 888177 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless, hm... < 1312019623 53812 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-10-125.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312019650 276206 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps if you did it as an enormously branching tree of []'s, where you only end a loop after packing all the information _back_ into the main register, so you can keep the second register 0 while returning to top level of the bf program... < 1312019710 88125 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-40.elisa.ee QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204] < 1312019748 34671 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is like :caret() :D < 1312019759 657875 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAYBE :P < 1312019942 709261 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "make a conjecture that something is impossible, then get an idea why it's possible after all, repeatedly" part certainly seems familiar. < 1312020546 186918 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stupid Python lambda < 1312020552 367653 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not doing what I want it ot < 1312020554 71746 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*to < 1312020572 415533 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :try not using python < 1312020691 696646 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing if (n % const == 0) { n /= const; ... } else { ... } with just 2 registers _does_ seem rather hard < 1312020714 818447 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn, asi523 is gone < 1312020723 365263 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need at least one more register for that < 1312020728 188577 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :however many register mult, div and mod require... < 1312020775 184212 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*2 cells < 1312020813 286586 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you could do it with an infinite AST :-) < 1312020846 967057 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yeah, the tricky part is doing unbounded subtraction looping without that :P < 1312020993 706815 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: maybe aim for four cells to start with? :P < 1312021008 404492 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or three. < 1312021019 42053 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: UNDERLOAD MINIMALISATION WASN'T BUILT IN A DAY < 1312021024 928733 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed. < 1312021097 580318 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :with three you should have somewhere to put both the quotient and the remainder, and then you can clean things up afterward, maybe. < 1312021116 771635 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1312021140 357609 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a minsky machine 2 registers is no problem because the remainder can be incorporated into the state. < 1312021147 7662 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: three or four wouldbe an upsetting number. < 1312021149 292000 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :why three. why four. < 1312021151 438820 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not two. < 1312021156 730229 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as the minmum) < 1312021237 559955 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well as i said, with two you have the trouble that whenever you exit a loop, all your information beyond program position has to be in just one cell. < 1312021251 21862 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*as i implied, < 1312021316 77096 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY SO FAR NOT THOU. < 1312021400 50261 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means you cannot really use a loop for calculating divmod, unless you manage to somehow avoid exiting it before making some computational progress. < 1312021461 81050 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :three would be okay i guess < 1312021462 44802 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :cuz like < 1312021462 988714 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :two minksy < 1312021464 521099 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :one scratch < 1312021470 164570 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but FOUR is unholy against god as a minimum, < 1312021478 963074 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i seem to have a disturbing tendency to split infinitives < 1312022093 209840 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: *I seem to disturbingly have a tendency to split infinitives < 1312022093 520977 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: splitting infinitives is not illegal < 1312022123 585932 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you weaponize it < 1312022145 637385 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :agree with itidus20 < 1312022147 277633 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was on the split infinitives wikipedia page once < 1312022152 115078 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :splitting infinitives is fine < 1312022163 4711 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparen't theres a big mix up about it < 1312022176 160914 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :^apparently < 1312022203 947742 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but i seem to be doing it all the time recently. < 1312022235 903108 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're just winning... it's fine < 1312022245 116382 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oerjan desires to boldly split infitives where no infinitives have been split before < 1312022264 885493 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1312022290 526189 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Yes, you should. < 1312022673 194609 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1312024089 22922 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1312024391 340212 :immibis!~androirc@122-59-225-215.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1312025389 736497 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1312025744 140030 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1312025884 550790 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-155-219.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 . < 1312026205 414088 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any good reasons that I should _not_ return the Nook and get a Kindle? < 1312026215 680418 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the idea of the synced annotations < 1312026276 11426 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229161009.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1312026280 551446 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've kind of been excludng "Kindle" mentally from my "What ereaders am I checking out" list before < 1312026607 486600 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, hmm, I wouldn't be able to buy from most online ebookstores < 1312027032 401227 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229161009.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1312027568 932534 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1312027601 813378 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's just great. Just taught a creepy idiot in #jesus about the existence of notice, now he's asking me how I did it < 1312027617 286539 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :notice? < 1312027644 526668 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've never used IRC notice? < 1312027650 20283 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1312027655 486059 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net NOTICE #esoteric :Looks like this to the channel < 1312027668 902517 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes < 1312027716 545620 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1312027719 118808 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting. < 1312027743 995352 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :gayest. < 1312027779 138965 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: why are you in #jesus teaching people about notice? < 1312027794 471675 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because he's that awesome < 1312027818 79705 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because creepy dude was talking about some "hacker" sending messages to him, and that's why he always seemed to talk to himself in channel < 1312027830 603423 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was curious if the "hacker" was just using notice < 1312027851 275023 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, you missed the awesome context for that line < 1312028188 459729 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, so if someone tells me "please pay to our paypal account: paypal@(ourcompany).com", am i supposed to send another email in that address to ask for their paypal account stuff, or are paypal accounts just somehow registered to email addresses < 1312028216 651658 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second one < 1312028248 168885 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Must stop accidentally fuelling paranoid guy's paranoia < 1312028264 589273 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks, now if only i knew how to actually pay to one < 1312028289 268796 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ordering a mail order bride/secretary/assassin < 1312028306 945463 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like in Kill Bill? < 1312028327 640532 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't seen kill bill < 1312028332 841984 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither have I < 1312028334 338829 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.paypal-marketing.co.uk/sendmoney/index.htm < 1312028335 720355 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know there's a girl < 1312028339 724862 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's it < 1312028347 497691 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i think there's more than a girl < 1312028348 568205 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1312028369 628588 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so err does anyone know latin here < 1312028375 373063 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know a little < 1312028386 235012 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait which languages are philias in < 1312028395 764426 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to know what the term is for people who like to fuck houses < 1312028404 502455 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hippophile < 1312028408 714444 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Greek < 1312028418 351279 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hippo as in... hippo? < 1312028428 665130 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1312028440 845066 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1312028448 645787 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hippopotamus litteraly means horse of the river < 1312028456 414330 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1312028459 527234 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :not horses < 1312028464 644179 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :who the fuck would want to fuck a horse < 1312028471 209872 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1312028475 876297 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Misread, sorry < 1312028477 250637 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :pervert < 1312028477 777373 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hang on < 1312028509 584501 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought you meant because hippos are really big < 1312028527 899010 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oikiaphile < 1312028724 440143 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you < 1312028743 982381 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I also misread "horses", but maybe it was just the context when reading the lines backwards. < 1312028777 272598 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :do i need to make a gaypal account to be able to pay to one? < 1312028789 151186 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so < 1312028794 727044 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so either. < 1312028807 163471 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah < 1312028809 553362 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :too hard < 1312028833 954302 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"How much does this house weigh?" is a traditional obligatory question asked after presentations on all CS student body organized company excursion visit sort of things. < 1312028844 462494 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or "paljonko tämä talo painaa?" in Finnish. < 1312028855 268868 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's some sort of a nonsense-joke. < 1312029389 81524 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1312029591 52141 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much do houses weigh? < 1312029597 822097 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have absolutely no idea < 1312029608 539131 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on their size and material < 1312029614 512135 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does?!? < 1312029638 106609 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never fucked a house < 1312029676 41431 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :some people fuck cars but i haven't heard of a house lover < 1312029852 46841 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"house lover": About 250,000 results (0.23 seconds) < 1312029861 128198 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather irrelevant results. < 1312029878 569881 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a "Tiny House Lover", but I doubt it's about fucking tiny houses. < 1312029883 784449 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least when "fucking" is a verb. < 1312029899 238001 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be a dwarf oikiaphile < 1312029912 372556 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be when it's an adverb or something. < 1312029928 189065 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wouldn't fuck a house that was bigger than me < 1312029930 566854 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe like a doghouse < 1312029965 895722 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard that the whole "tiny house" is a sort of a trendy thing; the new iteration of the "minimalism" stuff. < 1312030002 364100 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well as long as they are big on the inside < 1312030008 359670 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/houses/ < 1312030019 178036 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure there's any that are smaller than you. < 1312030065 643537 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somebody had parked a modern-looking glass-wall on-wheels sauna on a grass field in Otaniemi. < 1312030086 194125 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i have to build one myself or i'm gonna be alone forever < 1312030116 15395 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the old well-known "made out of a car" one -- http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1171/1433982857_c28fbee6fe.jpg -- but a more stylish affair. < 1312030137 119774 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that thing < 1312030143 673804 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :is possibly the best < 1312030153 652337 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: It appeals both to the car fuckers and the house fuckers. < 1312030175 126140 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't know which side of me it's appealing to, but i'm very appealed < 1312030181 693620 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1312030191 401309 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.saunasessions.ca/mobilesaunas/index.php?n=MobileSaunas.Lehti <- some rather more smutty pictures of it, doors open and all. < 1312030243 345591 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kuvaaja yll�tt�� heid�t takaluukun kautta. Milt� tuntuu? < 1312030258 103241 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1312030443 868817 :derrik!~xix@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1312031804 425428 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :finns are weird < 1312031972 978041 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229161009.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1312032001 760012 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@158.130.103.202 JOIN :#esoteric < 1312032002 42763 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@158.130.103.202 QUIT :Changing host < 1312032002 95293 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1312033809 122730 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now to wait 12-24 working days! < 1312034057 229021 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1312034633 817107 :immibis2!~androirc@122-59-225-215.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1312034634 117777 :immibis!~androirc@122-59-225-215.jetstream.xtra.co.nz QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312034962 792368 :immibis2!~androirc@122-59-225-215.jetstream.xtra.co.nz QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1312035085 754924 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1312035095 448550 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net NICK :TanebIsAWay47 < 1312035258 649503 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is a cirno-chan < 1312035297 941304 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know what a cirno is...she is stupidest < 1312035378 333428 :TanebIsAWay47!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1312036154 55849 :invariable!~variable@unaffiliated/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1312036438 126297 :TeruFSX!~quassel@pool-116-152.res.carleton.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1312036582 44383 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312036730 433071 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-10-125.tn.glocalnet.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312036766 233675 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1312037365 44981 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found an answer: The library books will be Kindle format, so I still wouldn't be able to purchase DRM ebooks from other sellers < 1312037502 69090 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I just had another idea < 1312037574 954142 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :this ones sort of playful and hopefully fun < 1312037652 443599 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a genre of video games about creating. Crayon physics, MineCraft, Terraria, Lemmings, Sim City.. i don't have an exhaustive list < 1312037921 137737 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :just as I typed this I looked in wikipedia on SimCity and found an amusing comment "In Space Quest IV, in the Software Excess Store, a game called Sim Sim is available. It is described as a "simulated simulator specially designed for creating simulated simulators" and that "you can create a simulated environment in which you can create any simulated environment you want"." < 1312038347 48754 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info JOIN :#esoteric < 1312038347 713889 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info QUIT :Excess Flood < 1312038391 564883 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info JOIN :#esoteric < 1312038431 511342 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312038444 863785 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1312038454 947502 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow... .. my creative juices are really flowing now < 1312038484 145673 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In what way? < 1312038507 576495 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll go make a coffee and return with an answer of this fucking sweet idea i just had < 1312038515 607029 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Write it down first < 1312038522 834692 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you don't forget < 1312038529 189785 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't forget an idea < 1312038762 823138 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow .. oklo is right < 1312038765 413815 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway ok < 1312038770 27905 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :back with coffee < 1312038782 651111 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Idea? < 1312038788 985139 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is directed towards game development.. but let me explain in the context of say, visual basic < 1312038804 773449 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose you are editing a visual basic thing right? < 1312038811 308832 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay < 1312038837 161727 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :you make a form.. you throw some buttons on it, ok? < 1312038845 399031 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay < 1312038855 942631 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you "run" it.. following so far? < 1312038859 467015 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1312038861 790171 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hang on < 1312038870 382210 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I supposed to be doing this as you talk < 1312038875 516555 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahaha no no < 1312038878 747305 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :only in your head < 1312038883 787586 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay < 1312038892 252246 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, what happens if you click on one of these buttons? < 1312038900 326004 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not much < 1312038918 685816 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :essentially nothing, right? < 1312038923 670662 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1312038955 363818 :MSleep!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net NICK :MDude < 1312038961 734717 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, my idea is... that.. if you right click on one of these buttons... a box pops up for you to enter a script on how to react to a right button click < 1312038994 837129 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops i mean left click i think < 1312039047 572959 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :or... (and now we are reminded of a spell checker) whether it should ignore the right click < 1312039064 899743 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :^left click < 1312039143 502422 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically, reacting to events by prompting for some code of how to react to the event < 1312039157 562980 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1312039161 230048 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So like, < 1312039161 900548 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps some kind of dialog box with checkboxes < 1312039180 388742 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting < 1312039214 527507 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah.. although some crazy guy out there is probably already doing it, what matters is that it's low key and we haven't really heard ofit < 1312039287 587863 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's already being done.. but it probably still exists only in white papers and expensive apps < 1312039315 920365 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i've never heard of it < 1312039360 703327 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so.. suppose theres a game right? < 1312039365 903525 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312039406 772866 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so.. suppose theres a game right? now.. when 2 objects in the game collide.. it could prompt for you to create an event handler (either a script or a dialog box with checkboxes etc) < 1312039417 919000 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i know he's gone) < 1312039523 242482 :soupe!Atl-Script@sbr22-1-82-245-242-11.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312039750 641019 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the idea < 1312039799 956425 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe you could have something like ctrl+whatever = prompt for what to do when whatever is done, so you could test and program at the same time, and correct mistakes easily < 1312039811 419516 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah i would certainly like to do gui programming that way < 1312039820 497101 :soupe!Atl-Script@sbr22-1-82-245-242-11.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Quit: ~{AtlanTis-Script}~ par Jack Disponible sur http://Atlantisteam.xooit.fr < 1312039832 781205 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: hmm so you mean like a toggle :D < 1312039835 91582 :soupe!Atl-Script@sbr22-1-82-245-242-11.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312039846 988058 :soupe!Atl-Script@sbr22-1-82-245-242-11.fbx.proxad.net PART :#esoteric < 1312039855 99000 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh maybe ctrl + foo would be better < 1312039865 505810 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the big problems with this idea is the event flood < 1312039874 209952 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how exactly to filter it < 1312039887 612545 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE MOUSE JUST MOVED TO (620, 39), WOULD YOU LIKE TO ADD AN EVENT FOR THIS < 1312039911 391918 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then i got the idea of being like a spell checker.. the way it lets you ignoer something, or add it to dictionary etc < 1312039942 161691 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i have a harsh internal critic who expects nothing but the very best ideas < 1312039957 849183 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :slowly working on my neuroses < 1312039970 687198 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :WOuld it check the mouse at all times, or would it be just specific object checking if the mosue is over them? < 1312039986 913088 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1312040014 373677 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since even if you wanted an invisible spot that reacts to being hovered over, you could still make that with an invisible object. < 1312040077 755486 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: i think ctrl+whatever mostly solves the event flood problem as well, just press ctrl just before whatever event you want to catch < 1312040081 530940 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312040087 152688 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus what MDude said < 1312040135 346907 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would probably be nice to have a timer so you can have things just perform an action periodically. < 1312040136 669699 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a harsh internal critic that usually tells me i suck and shouldn't even try when i try to solve a problem < 1312040186 41702 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry I lost connection < 1312040352 437189 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu < 1312040501 485660 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you suck < 1312040623 731668 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: well good point.. it could be configured to look for "mouse over object" < 1312040629 670054 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than "mouse at x,y" < 1312040653 699539 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the kinds of events that it catches are supposed to be generalized ones < 1312040696 394068 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: ill pastebin what you missed < 1312040705 540345 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No need < 1312040707 521384 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read the log < 1312040711 997597 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ahh ok < 1312040725 952304 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so nice little idea i had eh < 1312040774 814351 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :one benefit is you don't have to "think" of which events will occur < 1312040779 214004 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :only have to wait for them < 1312040788 454409 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would seem to be the idea < 1312040793 679662 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry *external < 1312040829 784423 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: hmm the details are sketchy < 1312040843 23870 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :the seed of the idea was.. < 1312040869 260907 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :" There is a genre of video games about creating. Crayon physics, MineCraft, Terraria, Lemmings, Sim City.. i don't have an exhaustive list" < 1312040882 176696 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric : just as I typed this I looked in wikipedia on SimCity and found an amusing comment "In Space Quest IV, in the Software Excess Store, a game called Sim Sim is available. It is described as a "simulated simulator specially designed for creating simulated simulators" and that "you can create a simulated environment in which you can create any simulated environment you want"." < 1312040911 400179 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :now with all these games about creating i thought, what about if you had a game about creating that could bootstrap itself. < 1312040949 233571 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.... suppose thats what secondlife does >.< < 1312040961 439610 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well not really. < 1312040964 393171 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but secondlife doesn't really do it in a pure way < 1312040966 705276 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehe < 1312040971 556648 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: thanks < 1312040983 91059 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this is oneupmanship on secondlife < 1312040996 233261 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like you can script a little room with avatars in it. < 1312041006 185120 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah.. this is like secondlife++ < 1312041027 903711 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :minecraft was on my mind when i thought of it < 1312041049 986566 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but secondlife is also related in that people sort of make stuff in the game < 1312041082 525078 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was actually tihnking of WarioWare: D.I.Y. < 1312041086 16936 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :g2g < 1312041093 148725 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :ya see... i downloaded a whole bunch of game makers the other day < 1312041107 288131 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so i have their limitations in my mind < 1312041113 326588 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool.. i haven't tried warioware < 1312041119 845121 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have heard of it though < 1312041135 471522 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know there were that many. < 1312041136 958537 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i may have subconciously got the idea from warioware < 1312041158 673421 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The scripting in it is a bit simple. < 1312041179 199312 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it's made for making games that only last a few seconds. < 1312041214 378108 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :GameMaker, M.U.G.E.N, IndieGame-Maker, RPGMaker2003, FighterMaker 95, FighterMaker 2002, Construct, Construct 2 < 1312041237 385315 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of them are by ASCII/Enterbrain < 1312041251 109464 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :with dodgy levels of legality < 1312041282 821667 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and I downloaded BYOB < 1312041300 705845 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Build Your Own Bear? < 1312041348 287781 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Build your own blocks < 1312041360 751446 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone here mentioned it to me < 1312041363 522975 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1312041441 911305 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah.. I was thinking, what if I could build the game from within the game < 1312041442 537257 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312041472 221924 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back < 1312041472 823985 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wouldn't surprise me if whatever you see in warioware is a hint at how nintendo operates internally < 1312041503 264106 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: back for your g2g? < 1312041511 676609 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed < 1312041521 864392 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sorta have g2g and brb backward in my mind < 1312041531 314744 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh now im confused < 1312041551 357195 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, to me, a g2g is shorter than a brb < 1312041553 260005 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used to play with games factory < 1312041570 54469 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to learn Inform 7 < 1312041597 82850 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1312041600 580156 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nice thing about games factory is you don't need to learn it < 1312041616 392452 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I stole indie game maker < 1312041618 455441 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just have to not be a blind retard < 1312041619 997601 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i admit it < 1312041633 968870 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i had to work hard at it < 1312041644 424657 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312041666 365264 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i should get that too then if its free < 1312041673 570145 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312041693 443571 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure i'd enjoy it as much nowadays < 1312041695 353990 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really need a better internet connection < 1312041698 911929 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :making that sorta games i mean < 1312041727 409874 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't really do anything that interesting with those things < 1312041774 812790 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, I have a big ego.. (always an awkward statement) .. but i do.. so I like to think up these grandoise ideas < 1312041780 888511 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like to keep ahead of the game < 1312041823 219215 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres this new phenomenon in game AI called behaviour trees someone recently told me about < 1312041855 225184 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :my programming related ideas are usually so gradoise they could never actually be implemented < 1312041874 312404 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what are behavior trees < 1312041894 107898 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhmm.. sort of a tree with scripts attached to it < 1312041932 371706 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it basically case statements within case statements? < 1312041955 848847 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know much about them... its more the structure which makes them special < 1312041976 172492 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me, behavior tree sounds like a fancy way to say prescripted stuff with a few branches < 1312041976 957753 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1312041979 887802 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :MDude: apparently they can be linked together in a useful way to build up complex behaviours < 1312042042 148452 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno what they are exactly < 1312042043 92110 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOunds a bit like a more controlled version of subsumption then. < 1312042130 888980 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, i am great at independant discovery < 1312042148 553906 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't seem to actually think of anything which hasn't been thought of before < 1312042157 633726 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's fine, really. < 1312042186 40981 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just have a 1% divergence from how everyone else would do it < 1312042212 550008 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well sometimes that small divergance can make a big difference. < 1312042228 370578 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so its a bitter moment whenever i google an idea i got to find out who else has it < 1312042235 343798 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's chaos theory < 1312042244 479009 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you considered having more detailed ideas < 1312042248 135652 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, form what I know, msot experts are too concened with purity to even want to understand more than one method. < 1312042258 728441 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :specific i mean < 1312042259 281286 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus20: I have heard that being called the "Bob Proffitt Principle" < 1312042271 897832 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really chaos. < 1312042294 511082 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe. < 1312042317 695521 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you scale up data structures enough, the problems with them tend to compound themselves a lot. < 1312042345 618550 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends onw hat you call a small difference, I guess. < 1312042347 90121 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah.. ideas are like trees a bit.. so .. when i get independant discoveries its like passing checkpoints < 1312042350 699001 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1312042354 236152 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :telling me that i'm on the right path < 1312042412 458507 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :great < 1312042420 267556 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :by independant discovery i mean something i thought up on my own that someone else has gone to the effort of writing about on the web < 1312042428 145970 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I too have sometimes came up with ideas similar to others that I did not know of yet. < 1312042516 399651 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of my ideas are unprecedented < 1312042524 755409 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they are so great no one else could've come up with them < 1312042529 426483 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of my ideas are stupid < 1312042534 627175 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And probably been done before < 1312042563 376588 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have different kind of ideas. Some are good and some are stupid, some are new, some are independent but same as others, some are very similar to others I don't know of but is still a bit different. < 1312042589 249823 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah.. theres always a kind of unique tack you can have on an idea that the other person didn't < 1312042666 224740 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1312042784 585531 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres always someone who would either... love to be your boss and control your genius.. or who would like to have you serving them at mcdonalds < 1312042848 659778 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh.. which is good cos it balances things < 1312042865 898354 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info JOIN :#esoteric < 1312042996 227986 :derrik!~xix@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1312043009 359045 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-231-206.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1312043014 241825 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-245-13.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312043037 314426 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :talk is cheap.. it all comes down to whether i can deliver < 1312043058 663382 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean < 1312043076 352873 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well.. if i didnt get any ideas then this speech of mine would be kind of hollow < 1312043119 418607 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you were talking about an idea of yours but it didn't exist, then yeah i suppose that would be kind of hollow < 1312043152 895145 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i independantly discovered the idea of fairy chess pieces < 1312043165 917705 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you could also talk about something else and have neither ideas nor hollowness < 1312043167 955763 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what are those < 1312043178 462297 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-standard chess pieces < 1312043191 212302 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you had the idea of adding other pieces to chess? < 1312043200 988573 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup < 1312043204 83627 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i liked doing that when i was 7 < 1312043216 637709 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun little activity < 1312043233 875615 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i worked out that each piece was defined by vectors < 1312043244 388176 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :defined by vectors? < 1312043252 675153 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean a set of allowed movements? < 1312043256 733393 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup < 1312043272 929918 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i realized on my own that i could define a set of alternative allowed movements < 1312043277 268181 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of fairy chess pieces are more complicated than that, though < 1312043283 460020 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on these vectors < 1312043295 745320 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i probably didn't know the term vector when i was seven < 1312043311 174426 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i created a set of rules sufficient to explain all the pieces in regular chess < 1312043319 25750 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had to come up with the idea independently < 1312043340 114496 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you made some kind of formal language in which you described the rules or what? < 1312043349 629415 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i liked doing that stuff in elementary school < 1312043354 313303 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhmm.. well i used a spreadsheet < 1312043372 625648 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and found the variables necessary to describe a piece < 1312043391 508282 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that called learning the rules of chess < 1312043402 399081 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i learned them when i was 4 < 1312043411 644993 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1312043417 977518 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are many classes of chess pieces and some combine different ones, some in normal chess, or in others. Knight = (1,2) leaper. Rook = (1,0) rider. Queen = Rook + Bishop. < 1312043438 274809 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to set a record in being an annoying asshole
< 1312043440 487421 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway.. i was quite happy with my achievement.. but kinda "oh..." when i actually googled it < 1312043445 335833 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*fpr < 1312043447 321403 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*for < 1312043460 779849 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... chess for me.. itself.. is not enough < 1312043475 903977 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never wanted to play such a chess.. < 1312043492 644997 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to make it realtime < 1312043512 884752 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not just by using timers on a chessboard < 1312043531 616631 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :it needs another layer of complexity < 1312043536 860898 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :" but... chess for me.. itself.. is not enough" <<< maybe because it sucks ass? < 1312043550 597180 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a guess < 1312043576 156835 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i noticed that those games called tactical rpgs are going in htat direction kinda < 1312043669 400893 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :chess is kinda like go, but sucky < 1312043721 364500 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :taking an abstract thing like chess and making it into something realtime is the opposite of an intelligent idea, chess is already way too complicated to be interesting, why would you complicate it further < 1312043734 148051 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's been done < 1312043742 65676 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I said last time you brought this up < 1312043745 113041 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah we've all read harry potter < 1312043748 88153 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :another idea i had is a piece whose movement space is defined by axis-aligned lines intersecting the enemy pieces < 1312043763 929337 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemme try to understand that < 1312043795 453660 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so err you move like a queen, but starting from any enemy piece you like? < 1312043808 477673 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :i worded it kinda bad < 1312043822 619190 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose that you drew a vertical and horizontal line through each enemy piece < 1312043826 850478 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :crossing the board < 1312043827 411802 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1312043834 840976 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that.. these lines formed walls < 1312043838 906170 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oaky < 1312043859 983060 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a piece who could move anywhere within the 'rooms' created by these walls < 1312043867 3542 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: is chess really like go? < 1312043877 286868 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i'm not sure i want to learn go if chess is anything like it < 1312043965 933806 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 1 enemy piece in the middle of the board would divide the board into 4 rooms < 1312044003 985415 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :and these other pieces could teleport around within these 'rooms' < 1312044010 128192 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chess has some similarities to go but it is a different game with many differences < 1312044024 674465 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it's like go in that you have to use the brain a lot to win < 1312044041 865982 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :its an idea i had when waiting at a busstop feeling overtired < 1312044044 709040 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's a board and pieces and turns < 1312044056 203201 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i just never saw how one could apply the brain to chess < 1312044061 9032 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Go does not even have a well-defined ending condition, actually. But once you know when to end, you can easily count points who wins is well defined) < 1312044071 488722 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: You just beat your opponents with the chessboard, right? < 1312044077 309667 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it's called 'minimax' < 1312044084 657736 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in both go and chess) < 1312044091 66579 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i can't do that in my head < 1312044097 35230 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to any relevant depth < 1312044115 585406 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you learned any of the Gipf Project games? < 1312044136 684762 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: relevant depth = deeper than your opponent < 1312044142 517860 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so just find a stupid enough opponent < 1312044148 875747 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which may be difficult of course < 1312044150 265996 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :in go, i never found it useful to minimax < 1312044157 261227 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then again i suck at it so maybe i should. < 1312044226 635224 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose if you were really really smart you could formulate some kind of plans in chess and it might become interesting < 1312044262 774327 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :chess is a trivial subset of reality though ------ or... is.. it? :P < 1312044265 507630 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm hundreds and hundreds of hours away from that and since playing is about as much fun as mental calculation, i don't really want to spend those hours < 1312044293 518080 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like chess < 1312044304 766693 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you're just really really smart < 1312044311 286118 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate chess and go < 1312044317 534406 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :too much thinking < 1312044321 465896 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never figured out go < 1312044325 900108 :itidus20!~itidus20@c210-49-78-148.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esoteric :turn coal into gold if you want a tough game :P < 1312044326 50214 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and too competitive < 1312044332 373068 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all about proving you're better than your opponent < 1312044355 218963 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like competing but only if i can cheat < 1312044362 458803 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are also variants that involve chance and/or hidden information too < 1312044426 491086 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: what do you like? < 1312044468 275635 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION likes Go, but I'm bad at it
< 1312044605 832161 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've only played go against a computer on easy < 1312044611 922154 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that was kind of pointless < 1312044618 960238 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it was way too hard < 1312044776 981118 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: lying on a couch doing nothing < 1312045021 126001 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ditto < 1312045045 92732 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of my favorites < 1312045058 976364 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was never much good at the endgame < 1312045137 550394 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey ditto again < 1312045172 979803 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what i'm really bad at is the rest of the game, especially the endgame and the other parts < 1312045234 972670 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also know Xiangqi and Shogi. < 1312045272 878566 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know Rummy < 1312045325 877985 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION likes Barbu
< 1312045334 871608 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not good at it, but I like it < 1312045348 405778 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This may be a common theme with me < 1312045376 136980 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know Mahjong? < 1312045382 426296 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1312045578 550458 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mahjong is played with 4 players. Each player gets 13 tiles. On your turn you pick one from the wall, so you have 14. If you have a complete hand (four sets of three tiles, either a sequence or three of a kind, and one pair) you win, and can count points. Otherwise you must discard one. < 1312045606 453559 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's like... Rummy mixed with... breakout? < 1312045621 730057 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any time one is discarded, another player can pick it up to make a set or complete their hand. Sequences can be taken only from the previous player unless you win. If you make a set by taking a discarded tile, you must reveal it. < 1312045638 649515 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have three of a kind and one more tile, you can make "kan" and pick up a spare tile. < 1312045666 759041 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: It is a bit like Rummy. But the tiles are really just used like cards. Nothing to do with breakout. < 1312045693 360545 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there are many significant differences from Rummy. < 1312045705 943470 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like with baseball. < 1312045738 782201 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is baseball anything like rummy? I don't think so. < 1312045748 876603 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are many significant differences < 1312045752 50838 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Baseball is played with ball, not with cards! < 1312045774 677360 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you imagine the cards are like players < 1312045798 206210 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes perfect sense < 1312045832 478734 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how to play baseball but still it doesn't seem like the cards are like players to me < 1312045849 946049 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also in mahjong, at the start you flip a dora tile. If you have the next number after that one, and you win, then you earn extra points. < 1312045884 931486 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you win by self draw, all other three players pay you. If you win by someone else's discard, they have to pay you three times and the other players pay you nothing. < 1312045922 856230 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want, you can bet 1000 points to call riichi. If you called riichi, then you cannot adjust your hand anymore. But, if you win, you win extra points. < 1312045955 253204 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :You also earn points depending on the patterns of your hand, such as all concealed, no sequences, all same suit, etc < 1312046029 93641 :derrik!~xix@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1312046606 968079 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, maybe, you want to play pokemon card. < 1312046624 427832 :myndzi\!myndzi@c-24-22-176-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312046820 221724 :myndzi!myndzi@c-24-22-176-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1312046849 721163 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1312047225 674429 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:55:30 what is a cirno-chan < 1312047225 747463 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:56:09 i know what a cirno is...she is stupidest < 1312047245 969811 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think -chan is the female japanese honorific suffix similar to -san < 1312047261 687616 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought chan is diminuative < 1312047267 95866 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :to emphasize cuteness < 1312047281 643520 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe. or perhaps both. pikhq? < 1312047412 306077 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :While we're waiting for a proper human reply, here's the MACHINE GOD answer from 'pedia: "Chan (ちゃん?) is a diminutive suffix; it expresses that the speaker finds a person endearing. Thus, using chan with a superior's name would be condescending and rude. In general, chan is used for babies, young children, grandparents and teenage girls. It may also be used towards cute animals, lovers, close friends, or any youthful woman." < 1312047420 160942 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In general, chan is used for babies, young children, grandparents and teenage girls. It may also be used towards cute animals, lovers, close friends, or any youthful woman. < 1312047426 114707 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :TOO LATE < 1312047428 592664 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn < 1312047441 361469 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I was rightish? < 1312047448 722174 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEVAR < 1312047457 286006 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, POSSIBLY < 1312047566 386292 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-245-13.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Pretty much. < 1312047572 279042 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and certain numbers < 1312047578 699621 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1312047592 375610 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :to what fizzie said, seems my pagedown key is wrongative atm < 1312047915 789162 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the wrongative case < 1312047984 567394 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The wrongative of servus, -i is serves < 1312048189 31825 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :serves you wrong? < 1312048205 743589 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite. < 1312048419 851639 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine something like Minecraft as a text adventure < 1312048464 262284 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :>You are on a beach. You can see far out to see. To the north, there is a forest. To the east, there is a cave. < 1312048469 332764 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>North < 1312048475 80717 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make up like a text adventure < 1312048529 356091 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1312048911 430277 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recognize that, try "help" for help < 1312048913 191627 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like text adventure game < 1312048932 247958 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also like to use the rule of "overmate" when playing pokemon card < 1312049284 652189 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1312049374 347525 :CakeProphet!~adam@h126.33.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312049374 419220 :CakeProphet!~adam@h126.33.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host < 1312049374 478485 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1312049616 369356 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you make a chess variant that as well as the normal chess pieces, there are also hourglasses (with different lengths of time) movable on the board? < 1312049659 483587 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-0-208.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312049671 739174 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly < 1312049696 964848 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The hourglasses move like queens until they run out, when they are taken off the board < 1312049729 535357 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Checking your opponent turns all their hourglasses over < 1312049736 181026 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :With that idea I dissappear < 1312049741 475652 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Quit: He's a big quitter he is. < 1312050065 368642 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1312050194 23676 :CakeProphet!~adam@h115.25.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312050194 198505 :CakeProphet!~adam@h115.25.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host < 1312050194 250989 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1312050486 768064 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312050518 710983 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That vowels language that has been mysteriously added to the language list from an anonymous user seems kind of boring < 1312050761 966 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you add a language mysteriously? < 1312050845 289143 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to follow the untrodden path of the lost elders < 1312050865 402078 :MDude!~fyrc@or-67-238-23-167.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or add a link that goes to a blank page. < 1312050953 732166 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1312051042 284002 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1312051076 471742 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod NICK :copumpkin_ < 1312051085 41479 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1312051200 51515 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1312051208 22497 :copumpkin_!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod NICK :copumpkin < 1312051959 986846 :derrik!~xix@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee QUIT :Quit: gone < 1312052249 771562 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1312052308 469212 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-144-204.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312052320 356780 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-245-13.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1312052356 324737 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1312053459 315118 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-197-126.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312053543 204486 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-144-204.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1312053563 25778 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312053808 387471 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1312053928 727172 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1312055061 341002 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312055231 281562 :evincar!~jon@d-burl-bng2-70-20-34-51.ngn.east.myfairpoint.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1312056210 362591 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1312056213 371926 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1312056414 683950 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1312056523 760257 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you add a language mysteriously? < 1312056526 982097 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1312056529 836381 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooooopsie < 1312056591 730956 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you shot web, isn't that what they ask? < 1312057142 864578 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312057159 28529 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1312057212 96583 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who's talking? < 1312057228 331569 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You. < 1312057233 668942 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie as well < 1312057245 130259 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And okokokoklopol. < 1312057256 724857 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crazy < 1312057259 20013 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and another line from fizzie < 1312057267 523018 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb joining in with an insult < 1312057335 865166 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You sound like one of those sports announcers. < 1312057748 88408 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any program I can learn how to make compiling rulebooks like Inform 7 does? < 1312057842 652861 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not as far as I know < 1312058406 590060 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know anything about compiling rulebooks like that? < 1312058424 415624 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1312058435 833010 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a vague idea how they work < 1312058505 308924 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much idea do you have? < 1312058517 216511 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very little < 1312058531 143268 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're a series of translations < 1312058650 901824 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like "Go north" becomes "change state to current state(x), current state(y)+1 < 1312058681 804892 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are also procedural rulebooks (a feature which is marked as deprecated) < 1312059002 623735 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read the document, you can use procedural rulebooks to have conditions to ignore or override other rules, and so on. < 1312059007 292455 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would such things be implemented? < 1312059030 41611 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not know < 1312059070 860760 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you asking how to make a programming language < 1312059083 850324 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not very hard, but it's rather hard to explain how to do it < 1312059210 826853 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not quite. I am asking about other specific things, such as procedural rulebooks. And, some way of converting them to imperative form. < 1312059240 42932 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would imagine zzo38 knows how to make a programming language... < 1312059301 334855 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know how to make programming language, in various ways. I even have books about it. But it is not quite what I am asking. < 1312059306 336308 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise large parts of the wiki would seem rather unexplainable. < 1312059315 408559 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I even invented many programming languages for various uses) < 1312059458 916297 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah i guess if you want to make a rule programming language in a specific genre, it's not that obvious how to do it. < 1312059614 352833 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is why I ask. < 1312059800 492542 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a word for a language that is of a lower computational class to another, but has more features such as networking or file I/O < 1312059801 112775 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to figure out how to make one that has not only rulebooks but other features too, and also can be used as a module in a larger program with other programming languages, and has templates and preprocessor, and is also a format that TeXnicard can produce as output. < 1312059885 132226 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: SQL < 1312059888 754531 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION runs away
< 1312059904 458559 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an example rather than a word < 1312060873 530610 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the word is 'fragnlium' < 1312060885 985392 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Tis a good word < 1312061255 614433 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1312061353 352375 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1312061934 811683 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1312062446 746720 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312064680 525114 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1312064848 583160 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1312064967 459510 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-0-208.tn.glocalnet.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1312065280 407729 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1312065435 523093 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1312067394 747041 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric : Is there a word for a language that is of a lower computational class to another, but has more features such as networking or file I/O <-- C vs. P'', C is not TC < 1312067405 494213 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea about a name for it < 1312067543 958846 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A feature request I made is getting attention < 1312067549 615264 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But... I made it in 2004 < 1312067550 353714 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=353248&aid=930097&group_id=3248 < 1312067587 793326 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1312067639 780644 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :conclusion: Sgeo lives not only in the past, but sometimes in the future < 1312067726 399530 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1312068479 483680 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1312068752 166818 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1312069799 939429 :CakeProphet!~adam@h215.26.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1312069803 779491 :CakeProphet!~adam@h215.26.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host < 1312069803 834935 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1312070390 119475 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly QUIT :Quit: swatted to death