< 1310688015 483486 :hagb4rd!~hagb4rd@koln-4db4fe19.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :numbers, endlessly looping a series of digits are also called periodics, yes? < 1310688037 994376 :hagb4rd!~hagb4rd@koln-4db4fe19.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, 1,2343434 < 1310688055 11912 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are called rationals < 1310688081 41552 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and such symbolic sequences are called eventually periodic or ultimately periodic, occasionally also periodic < 1310688252 524950 :hagb4rd!~hagb4rd@koln-4db4fe19.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess occasionally periodic when falling back into unstructred? < 1310688268 708820 :hagb4rd!~hagb4rd@koln-4db4fe19.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like 1,234343434343425235623 < 1310688292 174284 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not really a proper definition < 1310688307 244592 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc you can use that term if you like, haven't heard it < 1310688330 250611 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are many terms for sequences that are sort of periodic, recurrence, quasiperiodicity etc < 1310688381 5681 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :say if for all words w, there is an n such that every subword of length n in your point (your infinite sequence) contains a copy of w, then the point is, umm, recurrent i think? < 1310688473 620991 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if for all i and n there is a nonzero p such that x[i, ..., i+n+mp] = x[i, i+n+mp] for all m, then the point is called quasiperiodic iirc (although quasiperiodic can mean a lot of things, people just love using it for everything) < 1310688571 236408 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you call the point iso...somethingic if that same thing holds, but you might have to move a bit; that is, for all w occurring in x, there is a k and a p such that x[k + pm, ..., k + pm + |w| - 1] = w < 1310688584 561412 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :following me? < 1310688597 903707 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't recall the names of the terms because they are not as standard as one would hope < 1310688604 836374 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i can check them if you're interested < 1310688653 415885 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you can check them yourself, kurka has a marvellous book online called topological and symbolical dynamics where he gives the defs for arbitrary dynamical systems < 1310688656 7333 :hagb4rd!~hagb4rd@koln-4db4fe19.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea thanks you for this nice excursion < 1310688692 985673 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i sort of do it for a living :D < 1310688728 230300 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not very good at remembering terms) < 1310688753 892586 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants to talk more < 1310688835 930722 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so every subshift has a recurrent point < 1310688864 899031 :hagb4rd!~hagb4rd@koln-4db4fe19.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure elliott'll be back in a moment ready to kick your ass with his final question :P < 1310688885 801953 :hagb4rd!~hagb4rd@koln-4db4fe19.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we alle wait for < 1310688956 670041 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1310688984 634449 :hagb4rd!~hagb4rd@koln-4db4fe19.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :life, universe and all < 1310689040 776880 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :let S be a subshift, and let w_1, ... be an enumeration of all words. if for every word, you have the recurrence property in every point of S, then we're done. otherwise, take the first w_i for which it doesn't hold. then, there is a point x in S which contains arbitrarily big subwords without an occurrence of w_i, so this point x and its shifted versions have a limit point without an occurrence of w_i. so, S \cap Y is a nonempty proper subshift of S, < 1310689087 473755 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, observe that repeating this we obtain an infinite chain S_i of subshifts such that S_i does not have an occurrence of any w_j with j<=i unless w_j appears recurrently in every point of S < 1310689110 410737 :hagb4rd!~hagb4rd@koln-4db4fe19.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw.. i bought the book ian bell mentioned as his favourite on his homepage ;) ..the cosmic serpent < 1310689124 60593 :hagb4rd!~hagb4rd@koln-4db4fe19.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't wait to have it < 1310689137 925450 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, just take the intersection of such S_i, it's a descending chain of compact non-empty shift-invariant sets and therefore the intersection is also a compact non-empty shift-invariant set. < 1310689154 846744 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is clear that in this intersection, every point is recurrent < 1310689192 634351 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :was nice to get that off my chest < 1310689675 241708 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1310689821 375800 :foocraft!~ewanas@78.101.63.193 QUIT :Quit: So long, and thanks for all the fish! < 1310689839 851495 :foocraft!~ewanas@78.101.63.193 JOIN :#esoteric < 1310689904 51300 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan JOIN :#esoteric < 1310691088 839766 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just love shift spaces so much < 1310691101 109890 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just... can't get enough of them < 1310692043 291451 :hagb4rd!~hagb4rd@koln-4db4fe19.pool.mediaWays.net QUIT :Quit: hagb4rd < 1310692152 940951 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1310692201 886277 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1310692224 861608 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :drugs. < 1310692236 757692 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1310692373 432462 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION → sleep < 1310692374 638679 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1310692604 792737 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1310693105 855690 :hagb4rd!~hagb4rd@koln-4d0b6997.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1310693708 811785 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1310694024 248413 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> :D < 1310694024 971203 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `:' < 1310694038 550985 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> : parse error on input `<' < 1310694039 296833 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `<' < 1310694079 779072 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :all error messages from my language interpreters will be valid code. < 1310694088 50915 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus preventing error-based quines. < 1310694167 813043 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1:Maybe "so" < 1310694168 537286 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: data constructor `Maybe' < 1310694178 168329 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1310694182 223899 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> Not in scope: data constructor `Not' < 1310694182 926093 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `in' < 1310694188 813091 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn < 1310694215 927385 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1:Just "so" < 1310694216 604550 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type `[t]' < 1310694216 766715 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : against inferred type `Data.Mayb... < 1310694256 537128 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1:hm < 1310694257 239128 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: `hm' < 1310694312 724870 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1310694499 770719 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in any dimension, the binary shifts that are lattices are exactly the shifts where the set of 1's is linear) < 1310694543 852489 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(linear in the sense used with semilinear sets, that is, each 1 forces a periodic sequence of 1's in different directions) < 1310694562 678373 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just as easy as i thought, and done exactly as i guessed earlier) < 1310694588 803714 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1310694664 492094 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ermerm sorry not linear. but anyway that period thing. < 1310695074 584904 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1310695120 825958 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1310695123 431217 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for shift spaces that are boolean algebras, they are just the full shifts and the periodic shifts < 1310695140 671709 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :binary ones that is < 1310695191 660629 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the general case is slightly more complicated, although i did solve that one too, in a sense) < 1310695316 658040 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's that... whatever his/her nick was last time, that crazy math dude; why is he not here, i need someone to eagerly repeat "uhhuh? i'm listening!" :\ < 1310696564 385746 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> fix error < 1310696565 178266 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *E... < 1310696646 498336 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quite what I was hoping for. < 1310696649 9156 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t fix (?f.) < 1310696649 719728 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall b (f :: * -> *). (?f::b -> b, Functor f) => f b < 1310696674 892721 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the ? < 1310696683 858742 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :implicit argument < 1310696704 757128 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> fix (error.) < 1310696705 500462 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (f [GHC.Types.Char])) < 1310696705 662763 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : arising from a use ... < 1310696706 129815 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka dynamically scoped variable < 1310696724 287789 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not exactly a _variable_ :D < 1310696736 776572 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PART #esoteric :"Leaving" < 1310696740 427280 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1310696754 177269 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> fix (error.) "is too!" < 1310696755 601459 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *E... < 1310696755 763772 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t fix (('a':).) < 1310696756 353384 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => f [Char] < 1310696786 109236 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: it's because of lambdabot's (.) = fmap definition < 1310696790 939158 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1310696866 810746 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t fix ((.).(.).) < 1310696867 550390 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : The operator `.' [infixr 9] of a section < 1310696867 712443 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : must have lower precedence than that of the operand, < 1310696867 874571 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : namely `.' [infixr 9] < 1310696877 932077 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t fix (((.).(.)).) < 1310696878 674476 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a = f (f1 a) < 1310696878 836797 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Expected type: f2 (a -> b) < 1310696878 999040 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Inferred type: f2 (f (f1 a) -> f (f1 b)) < 1310696896 975528 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t ((.).(.)) < 1310696897 728133 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (f :: * -> *) a b (f1 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1) => (a -> b) -> f (f1 a) -> f (f1 b) < 1310696905 627816 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh this is stupid < 1310696918 618488 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t . < 1310696919 362045 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse error on input `.' < 1310696920 997177 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (.) < 1310696921 751351 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b < 1310696951 558694 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t ((.).(Prelude..)) < 1310696952 294855 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (f :: * -> *) b c a. (Functor f) => (b -> c) -> f (a -> b) -> f (a -> c) < 1310696955 241958 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (const 4) . putStrLn "Hello!" < 1310696956 778760 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1310696968 212148 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah. Which (.) are we using? < 1310696975 90175 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: fmap < 1310696985 642992 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: caleskell < 1310696991 441276 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is it defined? And how does it shadow Prelude's? < 1310697012 575874 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: in lambdabot's L module < 1310697019 857798 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"how"? < 1310697022 204394 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can shadow anything < 1310697028 373444 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :on import < 1310697036 283950 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott weighs in on the matter. < 1310697040 692773 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Really? I thought you couldn't ever have two things with the same name < 1310697051 892354 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: what on earth gave you that impression? < 1310697054 629547 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1310697056 673046 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :import Prelude hiding ((.)) < 1310697059 318182 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :module Foo (map) where < 1310697061 809787 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :import Prelude hiding (map) < 1310697063 210164 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :map = 99 < 1310697064 642522 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then: < 1310697067 618293 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :import Prelude hiding (map) < 1310697068 616796 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :import Foo < 1310697070 725046 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = print map < 1310697074 226380 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- program will print 99 < 1310697093 454257 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: derp ok < 1310697110 293429 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you can also e.g. < 1310697112 319821 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let map = 99 in map < 1310697113 84975 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 99 < 1310697119 587639 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no, still doesn't answer my question < 1310697121 64562 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also if you qualify the name then you can have both in scope. < 1310697123 825613 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude is imported by default < 1310697135 542914 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: yes, but adding an explicit import declaration overrides that < 1310697138 321865 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah ok < 1310697144 381774 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there is no shadowing there < 1310697148 803868 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except in the 'let' declaration) < 1310697150 802816 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatively, NoImplicitPrelude or whatever it is < 1310697153 792903 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: yes there is < 1310697155 676707 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which also does other stuff < 1310697161 262227 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let {map = 99} in {9 + map} < 1310697161 993753 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `{' < 1310697165 773643 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let {map = 99} in 9 + map < 1310697166 565992 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 108 < 1310697170 91150 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: map is shadowed in the scope of the in expressio < 1310697171 62967 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :n < 1310697172 656876 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe import Prelude () will hide it entirely? < 1310697174 907229 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget what else, aside from letting you use your own monad definition for do notation < 1310697175 69697 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I said except in the let declaration < 1310697180 402413 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well, duh :) < 1310697196 70242 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: do you feel an urge to abuse NoImplicitPrelude < 1310697205 486034 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how it could be abused. < 1310697211 615912 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless improving the Prelude is abuse. < 1310697248 188453 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit mvaen i want automatic builds in eclipse < 1310697248 351089 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure there's some way to abuse it < 1310697291 887101 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :any kind of abuse I can think of would be highly contrived. < 1310697301 446583 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not as obvious as the ways one can abuse OverloadedStrings < 1310697339 268756 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course by "abuse" I mean "use in ways that are completely allowed by Haskell and typecheck with no special hacks required" < 1310697348 66545 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha monqy < 1310697348 613734 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if < 1310697350 750866 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i asked stack overflow < 1310697379 608363 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: do you find unsafecoerce hilarious < 1310697387 423441 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what would happen I'm not a stackoverflow guy < 1310697395 67307 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not even sure what the hell that is supposed to do. < 1310697401 210928 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t unsafeCoerce < 1310697401 953762 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: `unsafeCoerce' < 1310697403 389147 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the notion of coercing types in Haskell confuses me. < 1310697404 806065 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1310697412 252822 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle unsafeCoerce < 1310697412 480574 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unsafe.Coerce unsafeCoerce :: a -> b < 1310697425 105394 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's used in Data.Dynamic or whatever it is < 1310697428 946692 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you find Data.Dynamic hilarious < 1310697455 443597 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: stackoverflow ims a bad persons < 1310697456 68941 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I don't find anything in Haskell particularly hilarious. < 1310697467 739771 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dynamic is interesting and possibly useful. < 1310697501 160260 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it demonstrates that Haskell can support dynamic typing, which is pretty incredible < 1310697516 468004 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: also when I said NoImplicitPrelude I meant RebindableSyntax (which implies NoImplicitPrelude) < 1310697517 9870 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t fromDynamic < 1310697517 844087 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. (Typeable a) => Dynamic -> Maybe a < 1310697529 487898 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: What does Haskell look like? < 1310697541 570519 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what the hell kind of question is that. < 1310697550 274750 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: What country are you from? < 1310697562 88422 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :.... < 1310697569 288313 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: "...." ain't no country I ever heard of. They speak Haskell in ....? < 1310697573 799938 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I refuse to answer all of these questions. < 1310697582 737252 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :HASKELL MOTHERFUCKER, DO YOU SPEAK IT? < 1310697590 400656 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: DESCRIBE WHAT HASKELL LOOKS LIKE. < 1310697600 690627 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1310697616 302626 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay we cannot quote Pulp fiction anymore. < 1310697618 339692 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am leaving now. < 1310697619 369268 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :please tell me if i am dying or crying i cannot tell < 1310697628 274858 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they rhyme this is confusing to me < 1310697628 918265 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: God dammit just get to the bitch part so I can ask if Haskell looks like Perl. < 1310697639 801015 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :LAME < 1310697641 230191 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO < 1310697658 752317 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you will have to ask why I am trying to fuck it like a Perl. < 1310697664 191722 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is pretty disturbing. < 1310697666 593344 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/7.0.2/html/users_guide/syntax-extns.html#rebindable-syntax < 1310697666 933122 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :No; code it like a Perl. < 1310697694 974197 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're saying that Dynamic is only useful if you want to code Perl in Haskell? is this the grand point? < 1310697704 837545 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell {-# LANGUAGE RebindableSyntax #-} import qualified Prelude; a >>= b = b a; main = Prelude.print $ do x <- 3; y <- 4; x Prelude.+ y < 1310697713 131108 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/input.30856.hs:1:13: unsupported extension: RebindableSyntax < 1310697716 49375 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1310697724 865254 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :GRMBL < 1310697752 64048 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, that's a potential use case, writing a Perl interpreter in Haskell could make use of Dynamic. < 1310697763 695528 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: NoImplicitPrelude used to do it, IIRC < 1310697766 317233 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :embed perl in haskell < 1310697769 544478 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1310697782 168882 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell {-# LANGUAGE NoImplicitPrelude #-} import qualified Prelude; a >>= b = b a; main = Prelude.print $ do x <- 3; y <- 4; x Prelude.+ y < 1310697792 703717 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I suspect not using Dynamic could lead to better results. < 1310697799 670032 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1310697814 427983 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that doesn't absolve you of the need to type main properly :P < 1310697816 754967 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :since Perl has a finite number of types, using a single PerlData type would work. < 1310697831 736944 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell {-# LANGUAGE NoImplicitPrelude #-} import Prelude hiding (>>=); a >>= b = b a; main = print $ do x <- 3; y <- 4; x + y < 1310697850 563482 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell {-# LANGUAGE NoImplicitPrelude #-} import Prelude hiding ((>>=)); a >>= b = b a; main = print $ do x <- 3; y <- 4; x + y < 1310697868 179236 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1310697871 780295 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell {-# LANGUAGE NoImplicitPrelude #-} import Prelude hiding ((>>=)); a >>= b = b a; main = print $ do x <- 3; y <- 4; x + y < 1310697912 902661 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :TH + Dynamic = fun abuse of Haskell < 1310697922 829450 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh whatever < 1310698838 640840 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java is literally intolerable. < 1310698897 103623 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any jvm languages worth using < 1310698921 314414 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants Seph < 1310698962 760395 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: it isn't even the language that's giving me pain < 1310699019 631505 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's the ide, don't use the ide, but then the language gives you pain, at which point fix that??? < 1310699084 21557 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: it's the combination of ide and build system < 1310699091 221747 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :quick, what's the last word that pops into your head < 1310699096 563253 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: head < 1310699106 514058 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1310699117 641698 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my words are still popping < 1310699119 969868 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :when will they stop < 1310699131 487183 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope he didn't type that in and quickly shoot himself before anything else did < 1310699428 68372 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> fix monqy < 1310699428 829664 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: `monqy' < 1310699464 304352 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :im long gone < 1310699588 318438 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> fix ?monqy < 1310699589 20428 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : mueval-core: internal error: PAP object entered! < 1310699589 182707 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : (GHC version 6.12.3 f... < 1310699604 747960 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :MWAHAHAHA < 1310699625 602258 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t fix ?monqy < 1310699626 331622 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. (?monqy::a -> a) => a < 1310699642 663244 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :IM STAB A FORK THROUGH THE CHEST OF JAVA < 1310699649 125269 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CRYING ALWAYS < 1310699726 617435 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1310700075 321163 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Develop with pleasure!" --IDEA < 1310700172 450851 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :diaf < 1310700201 528286 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :rude dude rude < 1310700643 915223 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1310701308 522457 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: oh i found out why people like IDEA < 1310701321 369484 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it pay them money < 1310701329 365575 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what is the prefix ?? < 1310701335 21953 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ? < 1310701339 446093 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: in ?monqy < 1310701342 681045 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: it might be slow and weird, but it works with maven without idiocy :D < 1310701345 339803 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: oerjan already told you < 1310701349 612339 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh did he < 1310701351 430902 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i fogtor < 1310701360 420108 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: implicit parameter < 1310701360 628425 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: and why do people like maven < 1310701384 671324 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: it might be weird and verbose, but it does stupid java things for you without (much) idiocy < 1310701386 158249 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott what does that do < 1310701395 783494 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it does nothing, it's a language feature < 1310701473 875613 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah i see it now < 1310701478 261238 :ruku56021!ruku56021@123.200.248.10 JOIN :#esoteric < 1310701517 807439 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am ambivalent about this extensions < 1310701548 332726 :ruku56021!ruku56021@123.200.248.10 PART :#esoteric < 1310701683 472471 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let f = ?x in let ?x = 3 in f < 1310701684 216353 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 3 < 1310701702 373607 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> ?y < 1310701703 72579 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : mueval-core: internal error: PAP object entered! < 1310701703 234760 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : (GHC version 6.12.3 f... < 1310701838 348804 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: there is no way to provide a default value for an implicit parameter? < 1310701856 856694 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1310701863 407775 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can say < 1310701866 485769 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :main :: IO () < 1310701871 109308 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = let ?foo = default in realMain < 1310701872 972772 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1310701880 901631 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well < 1310701882 643653 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :main :: IO () < 1310701883 798407 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = do < 1310701886 460568 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : let ?foo = default < 1310701889 332419 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : ... < 1310701892 405571 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(does that work? oerjan?) < 1310701904 984494 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it probably should < 1310701927 244571 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can do ?foo <- x? :D < 1310701927 406602 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> do let ?foo = 3; [?foo] < 1310701928 135627 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : < 1310701928 298179 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : The last statement in a 'do' construct must be an ... < 1310701933 803761 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_O < 1310701937 793811 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1310701946 396397 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> do let {?foo = 3}; [?foo] < 1310701947 154037 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [3] < 1310701953 883388 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1310701968 709682 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the let block wasn't ending < 1310702027 755392 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think you can do ?foo <- x, since that's desugared into lambda < 1310702045 551 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> do ?foo <- [3]; [?foo] < 1310702045 745997 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : Parse error in pattern < 1310702047 274947 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I mean that if I have a function with an implicit parameter, I cannot give it a default right? < 1310702053 959818 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the calling context must have it declared at some level? < 1310702065 724044 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: sure, but the question seems to imply some confusion to me < 1310702077 621479 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I was just asking for clarification < 1310702083 615246 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, yes, that's true < 1310702101 654333 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: because the docs give an implicit-pameter version of sort and I wanted to make sure it wasn't drop-in replaceable < 1310702116 88810 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :> ?cmp = cmp < 1310702116 878114 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : : parse error on input `=' < 1310702125 545456 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1310702132 304186 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure why implicit parameters exist, tbh < 1310702133 698609 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're kind of ugly. < 1310702153 355358 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not really partial to them myself < 1310702160 35325 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :they would be nice as a sort of 'named argument' thing < 1310702230 943421 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're supposed to be a way to pass configuration without making your code all monadic < 1310702257 59101 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1310702281 590040 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that smells of an excuse to retain technical purity < 1310702299 779873 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :while introducing all the issues of global state < 1310702328 505849 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not truly global, you can redefine implicit parameters in different calls < 1310702393 955095 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, and they only affect calls later in the stack < 1310702400 225568 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still wouldn't want to use it for that though < 1310702412 794991 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has never used them apart from to make lambdabot give nicer signatures for examples. < 1310702452 567997 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why didn't I use IntelliJ IDEA from the start, this is so much less painful. < 1310702506 565981 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :face magice < 1310702516 899434 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: wat < 1310702526 182820 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it is magical ice of the face < 1310702529 602339 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :face magice < 1310702533 894752 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1310702563 738835 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oleg et al. made a different method to put configurations in typeclasses, which uses a horrible hack passing through the ffi to support inserting arbitrary runtime values. it's in the reflection package on hackage. < 1310702564 906578 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :you see, face magice is notable for its complete lack of zepto < 1310702589 107393 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :your problem, lack of zepto, was probably caused by it < 1310702640 849139 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle reify < 1310702641 165346 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Language.Haskell.TH reify :: Name -> Q Info < 1310702641 327336 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Language.Haskell.TH.Syntax reify :: Name -> Q Info < 1310702641 489648 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Language.Haskell.TH.Syntax qReify :: Quasi m => Name -> m Info < 1310702646 518866 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1310702653 22064 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/reflection/0.4.0/doc/html/Data-Reflection.html < 1310702655 747900 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle Reified < 1310702655 951672 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No results found < 1310702659 627636 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yw < 1310702661 916635 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1310702668 912536 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um i know where it is < 1310702676 656518 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :reify :: a -> (forall s. Reifies s a => Proxy s -> w) -> w < 1310702730 422013 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that part is rather elegant, but the horrible hack to get around ghc's lack of any way to put runtime values directly into typeclasses, not so much. < 1310702781 86678 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a Functional Pearl < 1310702896 714862 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: :D < 1310702912 88301 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what does that actually mean, runtime values directly into typeclasses? < 1310702932 246718 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Behold my ugly, heavy iron: http://i.imgur.com/PkWCv.png < 1310702958 45303 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :in pure haskell there is no way to make a new class instance whose methods depend on a runtime value < 1310702974 788431 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this abstract is funky < 1310702980 548607 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's as easy as just unsafePerformIO (readIORef globalIORef) isn't it < 1310702988 737149 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, sure, /ugly/, but not _that_ ugly < 1310702991 789939 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This < 1310702992 4467 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem is common in all software systems, but particularly acute < 1310702992 166784 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Haskell, where currently the most popular solution relies on un- < 1310702992 166955 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :safe operations and compiler pragmas. < 1310702992 167028 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We solve the configurations problem in Haskell using only sta- ble and widely implemented language features like the type-class system. < 1310703016 153721 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: well it's ridiculously inefficient if you want to many reifications :P < 1310703023 667851 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*to do < 1310703037 35167 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this makes it sound so clean < 1310703040 745545 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :internally I mean < 1310703059 262137 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :like if you want to do modulo arithmetic with many different moduli in the way the paper shows < 1310703111 100075 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok where does it do the horrible ugly ffi stuff < 1310703161 216277 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :to handle an arbitrary value it makes an ffi pointer to the value, then converts that pointer into a string < 1310703176 515385 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind boggled < 1310703177 190974 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :then encodes the string in the type system < 1310703185 693520 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :double boggle < 1310703221 939428 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: amazing < 1310703229 165306 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffi in the type systme < 1310703230 518581 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks oleg < 1310703265 134269 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which then gives a type which has the right Reifies instance to reconstruct the string, convert back to the pointer, and then extract the value :P < 1310703285 70204 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course the ffi part uses unsafePerformIO < 1310703343 391489 :xxxx!~Administr@123.5.215.191 JOIN :#esoteric < 1310703374 286240 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Haskell-cafe] Type checking oddity -- maybe my own confusion oleg at okmij.org < 1310703374 448704 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah _right_ < 1310703408 339981 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1310703411 268516 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a reply :) < 1310703617 842102 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the thing is, afaict there is almost certainly a way to do this type wrapping _directly_ in ghc core. but iiuc ghc doesn't currently have a way to compile from core format... < 1310703621 45380 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1310703656 569461 :xxxx!~Administr@123.5.215.191 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1310704310 958296 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1310704405 814016 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :xkcd :D < 1310704550 65683 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has actally held his laptop like that :/ < 1310704559 944878 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1310704590 303771 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't suppose there are any Maven experts that haven't answered previously just hanging around :) < 1310704767 218113 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :only mavericks < 1310704838 588164 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1310704942 612037 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it seems it doesnt take randall long to go from saying "i want to make cancer jokes" to making things that aren't really jokes but are definitely about cancer... < 1310705010 458423 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1310705012 396636 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :when did he say that < 1310705081 230614 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :this week i think < 1310705091 477507 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the blog < 1310705146 60753 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :He said "talk (and draw comics) about stuff", not "make jokes". < 1310705178 614079 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I bet you're a total Maven expert. < 1310705182 941139 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mexpert. < 1310705193 928954 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There's a "new blog post" link on at least the m.xkcd.com comic page, otherwise I wouldn't have noticed.) < 1310705211 678760 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mav-pert. Per-vert. No, I'm really not. < 1310705225 914985 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even the LITTLEST bit???? < 1310705239 896250 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: sorry i didn't mean to imply that a humor comic strip should be jokes < 1310705287 140612 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even the. I know about some projects that use Maven, but I've never even taken a look. < 1310705301 523458 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: SOOOOOOOOOOOOO LAAAAAAAAAAME < 1310705420 968458 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't believe this is non-trivial >_< < 1310705749 650635 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure which I like more, Homestuck music or some Doctor Who music < 1310705762 573980 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I80pc9jZ_t8 (The Pandorica Opens spoilers) < 1310706084 692941 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I use XML for complex config, and haven't gotten very many complaints from it. Nothing like the YML issues Permissions and GM cause." < 1310706093 661979 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes; XML is much simpler than YAML < 1310706577 26312 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229162048.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1310707271 42575 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229162048.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1310707462 814721 :pingveno!~pingveno@c-98-246-133-8.hsd1.or.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1310707568 60153 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1310707622 37388 :Lymee!~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1310707716 229680 :pingveno!~pingveno@c-98-246-133-8.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1310707919 151064 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have checked what happens when sending a message from the UNIX mail account at FreeGeek to the internet (I used Mailinator service to test). What happens is the from address is specified as black@beryllium.shop.lan (which is not a valid internet email address) < 1310707933 803176 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I told them to use telephone, though, so it is OK. < 1310708019 964676 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, not this FreeGeek? http://www.freegeek.org/ < 1310708038 145877 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Correct, not that FreeGeek. It is this FreeGeek: http://www.freegeekvancouver.org/ < 1310708077 373968 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you're a bit late on linking that here < 1310708090 79447 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I linked it a few days ago < 1310708107 889977 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm only linking it because it made no sense as being something that zzo38 was talking about < 1310708115 180512 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But zzo38's thing is the same sort of thing < 1310708119 191865 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that < 1310708121 242536 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the doctor who < 1310708125 602128 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1310708150 531873 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love that they included the awesome speech < 1310708191 231044 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The speech is kind of [spoiler] given the later context < 1310708212 887147 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :only a little < 1310708229 890307 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't spoil any major twists < 1310708256 403967 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't mean that it's a spoiler, just that later events in the episode kind of ... < 1310708277 415599 :coppro!~scshunt@denardo.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh... pm? < 1310708284 646004 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fixed some things for them at FreeGeek, including fixing the drive wiping script, and I use TeX to print out stuff they need. < 1310708358 543469 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1310708370 458709 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. Headphones in my ownership tend to die within days, apparently < 1310708595 621170 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there such a thing as headphones that don't get damaged easily? < 1310708703 194070 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, headphones you don't own < 1310708720 752496 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lo < 1310708721 870542 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1310708804 616364 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps you are just using them wrong? < 1310708828 342534 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need headphones that can take the abuse < 1310708851 388376 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, now I'm wondering if I could replace my HD with solid-state < 1310708852 832251 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :dont abuse them < 1310708866 689298 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or get a box that can take the abuse, and put them in that. < 1310708885 754784 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :put head in box < 1310708890 83926 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :quality audio < 1310708909 811319 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also doubles as the canonical paper bag to hide your FACE in. < 1310708914 794102 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Was that mean?) < 1310708920 856801 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo has an ugly face < 1310708925 754575 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1310708931 349397 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I misread < 1310708951 182610 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought I was building off of a sort of joke I would make, not spoiling one of the sort someone else would make < 1310708954 672607 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::'( < 1310708971 565554 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1310709010 219902 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :My personal problem with 'phones is that if I ever accidentally leave the cord visible, the cat's attacking it within ten minutes. < 1310709039 792418 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-239-219.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION did not realise just how absurd modem autonegotiation is... < 1310709058 466864 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-239-219.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It goes down to 300 baud. < 1310709089 55015 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-239-219.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In precisely the same format as the second model of modem. < 1310709106 527886 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :second model? What about the first? < 1310709107 36352 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-239-219.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :From 1962. < 1310709116 391940 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-239-219.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: 110 baud. Can't negotiate down to that. < 1310709153 735160 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1310709190 105775 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-239-219.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, it's a bit too slow to get TCP working. < 1310709198 663813 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-239-219.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though IP works just fine) < 1310709284 511476 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-239-219.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, of course, you could dial into a terminal server. < 1310709295 400240 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-239-219.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :One with a modern, off-the-shelf 56k modem. < 1310709301 272313 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-239-219.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using a 300 baud modem from 1962. < 1310709801 288892 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how well that works in practice with the specialized v.90/v.92 uplink hardware, which aren't off-the-shelf modems. (Two nominally "56k" modems can't get that speed when connecting to each other; you can only get 56k downlink when connecting to something that has an all-digital connection to the telephone service.) < 1310709818 122432 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There were all kinds of modem incompatibility issues in the dialup days already. < 1310710206 866660 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-239-219.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Actually, in order to work *at all* a modem has to support 300 baud. < 1310710231 573938 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-239-219.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: The autonegotiation works by initiating a connection in 300 baud, and then communicating what rates they support. < 1310710281 186357 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there is that. I don't envy modem-makers, what with all the different modulation schemes and all. < 1310710609 44914 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should use wireless headphones? < 1310710665 454317 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia's view on the speed negotiation is a bit different, though. < 1310710686 856127 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcom_Networking_Protocol#MNP_6 < 1310710689 645463 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A less notable addition to MNP 6 was Universal Link Negotiation. With the introduction of additional modulation modes, notably v.32 and later additions, the modems on either end of the link had to spend an increasing amount of time negotiating a common standard. For instance, a v.32bis modem would first send tones into the line to try to get a 14.4 link; if that failed after a time, it would try 9600, 2400 and finally 1200 bit/s. Since each of these standards < 1310710689 808128 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :defined a minimum period of time to "try" for a link, the delay grew over 10 seconds. < 1310710689 808339 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ULN avoided this delay by always negotiating the link at 2400 bit/s with no error-correction turned on. Although this eliminated compatibility with older 1200 bit/s modems, by this point in time they were extremely rare. Once the connection was made, which occurred quickly, both modems sent a small identification string to the remote modem. Both modems then examined the string and selected the fastest common mode. The caller then re-negotiated once at that high < 1310710693 139557 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :er speed." < 1310710705 135959 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I make no claims of having any knowledge about this.) < 1310710759 217105 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the later LAPM thing does autonegotiation like that. < 1310711525 70070 :foocraft!~ewanas@78.101.63.193 QUIT :Quit: if you're going....to san. fran. cisco!!! < 1310711981 673349 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1310712201 683949 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :The speakers in my computer is a bit broken < 1310712223 486895 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a little bit? < 1310712282 529685 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It toggles a bit here and there, I suppose. < 1310712328 575274 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I put my own D&D character and also my brother's D&D character into the computer. I still don't have my brother's D&D character's name yet. < 1310712370 163713 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :My character helped his character to escape from an island of slaves by going on a merchant ship. < 1310712435 334798 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think it is a good story? < 1310712604 538519 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/level20.tex < 1310712789 615160 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: OK Java has just done something so mind-boggling to me that I absolutely must speak to someone with a basic knowledge of Java to confirm that this is the case do you know someone. < 1310712925 212790 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard of Java, doesn't it have something to do with coffee? < 1310712931 641205 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1310712948 565014 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In that when you see some Java, you'll spit your coffee on the screen.) < 1310712954 967553 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Map, String> seriously incompatible with HashMap, String> because Set =/= HashSet? < 1310712968 235737 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And doesn't that completely defeat the point of using abstract interfaces?! < 1310713153 560589 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is, yes, but HashMap, String> is compatible with Map, String>. < 1310713220 313784 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yeah, but I'm not typing "? extends Set" into the type signature of a local variable that I instantiate to a concrete type on the same line. < 1310713223 362556 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just too ridiculous. < 1310713278 723645 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't necessarily bother using the abstract names on things that are instantiated on the same line, anyway. It's still one "place" to change, even if it's a bit bad. < 1310713303 209215 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, at least when they cause problems, anyway. < 1310713433 444272 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand your second sentence there. < 1310713436 37347 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :One place to change what? < 1310713605 817604 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you have a "HashMap foo = new HashMap();", it's still just one line to edit if you change from HashMaps to TreeMaps for some reason. Though on a second look I guess your case is a bit different, since it's the "inner" type you didn't want to fix in place. < 1310713665 604215 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : @SuppressWarnings("unchecked") List commandAliases = (List) command.get("aliases"); < 1310713665 766590 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what this even compiles down to. < 1310713672 230685 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it has no concrete interface to go by. < 1310713752 964135 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now that I look at it, why can't you just have "Map, String> foo = new HashMap, String>();" as your concrete-typed local variable? You can use HashSets as the keys of that map just fine then. < 1310713820 67139 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone in here (I think it was quintopia) asked me to write document of FurryScript in esolang wiki. Now I did it is User:Zzo38/FurryScript < 1310713953 16853 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Document is currently incomplete) < 1310713991 256665 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have more script, type on User_talk:Zzo38/FurryScript and I might add the script into my collection < 1310714006 794185 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Oh, you can? Cool. < 1310714512 569900 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a idea of format of playing pokemon card. Both decks are made at random (with some constraints). Second time, swap decks. At beginning of game after picking up 7 cards, bet secretly who win, and separately bet method of winning (regardless of winner). When a side card is picked up, previous bet is revealed and both players bet secretly method of winning. Each correct bet +1 point, winner +3 points, overmate +2 each, tie +1 each player. < 1310714600 109252 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :After 2 duels, make up random deck again but players have choice to retain some cards from the 120 pooled cards you can pick. First player 60 points wins a match. < 1310714944 883048 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :If both players make or exceed 60 at the same time, whoever has more points wins the match. If both players make or exceed 60 at same time and also have the same number of points in total, the match ends in a tie. If no player makes at least 59 points in 20 duels, the match ends in a draw (if you make 59 you can play once more hopefully you can win) < 1310714983 650658 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, it should be 30 duels or 40 duels, not 20 duels < 1310715103 80122 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you refrain from betting if one or both player has no more side cards remaining. < 1310715183 69300 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bet who wins: * Self * Opponent * Tie < 1310715223 413466 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bet method of win: * Zero side cards remain * No opponent's card in play * No opponent's card in deck * Simultaneous no side card and no card in opponent's play * Tie game < 1310715280 790346 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1310715323 343137 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Are you answering me? If so, which one? Nothing after your previous message, I type questions! < 1310715332 562153 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not questions. < 1310715582 157703 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229162048.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1310715629 125681 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229162048.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Client Quit < 1310715634 15129 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229162048.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1310715648 450581 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Method of overmate: If you take more side cards than you have, each side card you would take extra is worth one overmate. If you run out of side card and opponent no cards in play simultaneous, is worth one overmate. If winning by no side card or no opponent's card in play, you score one overmate for each player with zero cards in draw pile. < 1310715670 538092 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes you can have potentially a maximum of eight overmate. < 1310715724 860910 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :These betting and overmate can affect the strategy and bluff and other aspects of the game!! < 1310716996 174718 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1310717080 364224 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1310718059 579964 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1310718117 267113 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1310718122 540979 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1310718340 936251 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's up? < 1310718429 997111 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :↑ < 1310719782 62610 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1310719820 519551 :elliott!~elliott@95.149.245.90 JOIN :#esoteric < 1310719823 738871 :elliott!~elliott@95.149.245.90 QUIT :Changing host < 1310719823 903445 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1310720489 126485 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1310720514 311162 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1310721081 803273 :rodgort!~rodgort@li125-242.members.linode.com QUIT :Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs) < 1310721095 704412 :rodgort!~rodgort@li125-242.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1310721824 250216 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229162048.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1310722072 247662 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229162048.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1310722249 870992 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1310722264 893412 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1310722302 573548 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :why on earth is TypeSynonymInstances not default for GHC... < 1310722321 651070 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because life is not perfect < 1310722332 963427 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a good reason. < 1310722566 866705 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder where my mind went. < 1310722813 381202 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I nicked it < 1310722876 212495 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an idea < 1310722887 798327 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :An esolang with only the keyword "Nicked" < 1310722931 133313 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe that would imply that the set of valid programs is countable. < 1310722949 788775 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nicked has two meanings < 1310722954 743643 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :stolen and arrested < 1310722966 977252 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can map each program to a natural number by counting the number of "Nicked" substrings. < 1310723032 941366 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure most languages' set of valid programs are countable < 1310723059 75964 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brainfuck, for example, each character can be converted into a base-8 digit < 1310723088 551289 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. It gets more complicated to map each program to a natural number with languages like C. < 1310723106 27530 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... I have difficulties determining what is countable and what isn't... < 1310723112 243810 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it doesn't, as long as you don't need each natural number to be a valid program. < 1310723138 678331 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you haven't found the set of valid programs... < 1310723155 108740 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah the number of valid strings in an alphabet is countable. < 1310723180 657091 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (`replicateM` "abc") >>= [0..] < 1310723181 391960 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type `[[GHC.Types.Char]] < 1310723181 554278 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ... < 1310723190 571994 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (`replicateM` "abc") =<< [0..] < 1310723191 321575 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ["","a","b","c","aa","ab","ac","ba","bb","bc","ca","cb","cc","aaa","aab","a... < 1310723198 807588 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there, I counted them. < 1310723202 679629 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1310723338 825906 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :By definition, any Turing-Complete program can be translated into Brainfuck < 1310723355 688292 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore, any Turing-Complete language has a countable number of prograns < 1310723360 45833 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*programs < 1310723362 744035 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's possible that each valid C program can be assigned a natural number. I'm just not really sure what kind of algorithm would apply the mapping... < 1310723377 853551 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems that for each subexpression there are infinitely many variations, so it can't be counted. < 1310723392 595931 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are infinitely many integers < 1310723414 903262 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : but it's possible that each valid C program can be assigned a natural number. I'm just not really sure what kind of algorithm would apply the mapping... < 1310723415 102787 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: is that true? I don't think a C to brainfuck translator has ever been made. < 1310723422 143917 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it has < 1310723422 895144 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice < 1310723432 704703 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh, Bifro has been removed < 1310723448 602118 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, is it true that you can translate every language to another? < 1310723454 345864 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I wrote a computable BF<->nat bijection once) < 1310723458 609411 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every Turing-Complete part < 1310723461 173275 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1310723468 504399 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Dude, being able to run other Turing-complete languages is pretty much the DEFINITION of Turing-completeness. < 1310723481 256315 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Excluding file-manipulation and IO and stuff < 1310723485 494412 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not the same thing as being translatable. < 1310723502 777963 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is in all non-contrived examples. < 1310723513 256547 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :For contrived examples see http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92. < 1310723539 725688 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, I'm not claiming to know the answer. I'm just reasoning by intuition. < 1310723559 542796 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intuition doesn't really work with countability < 1310723570 855736 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is probably why I am terrible at that. :P < 1310723600 807647 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. Mapping brainfuck programs to integers is trivial < 1310723605 643992 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course. < 1310723608 393257 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: It's not quite trivial if you want a bijection < 1310723610 605736 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with the naturals) < 1310723618 112901 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not _difficult_ < 1310723628 101988 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although finding an encoding that doesn't blow up into massive numbers for anything with nested loops is < 1310723666 806622 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just convert each character to a base-8 digit! Integer mapping! Unique number for each programming! < 1310723728 301370 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, as, by definition, any turing-complete language can simulate any other, all turing-complete languages can be simulated by brainfuck < 1310723745 397506 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Nope < 1310723750 903599 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ is not a valid brainfuck program < 1310723752 917635 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor is ] < 1310723756 953688 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor is anything without balanced brackets < 1310723774 680479 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't bother continuing the train of thought, I already spent a day doing so and thus was produced Bifro :-P < 1310723775 845840 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> filter (even . length . filter (`elem` "[]")) $ (`replicateM` "+-[]<>.,") =<< [0..] < 1310723777 373443 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ["","+","-","<",">",".",",","++","+-","+<","+>","+.","+,","-+","--","-<","-... < 1310723788 303165 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why you should use befunge instead, no such thing as an invalid program < 1310723792 426475 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that doesn't work... < 1310723792 588853 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: [ is not a valid brainfuck program. ] is not a valid brainfuck program. < 1310723798 662382 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: oerjan also already made a oneliner to do it < 1310723820 722983 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It generates even larger naturals, however, and isn't constant-time to map prog->nat < 1310723828 510859 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not even the other way, but that's because of the choice of data structure < 1310723863 63015 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just because it allows invalid programs doesn't make the system invalid < 1310723873 246239 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: It makes it not a bijection < 1310723880 811644 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :> filter (\x -> (length . filter (=='[') $ x) == (length . filter (==']') $ x)) $ (`replicateM` "+-[]<>.,") =<< [0..] < 1310723882 380069 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : ["","+","-","<",">",".",",","++","+-","+<","+>","+.","+,","-+","--","-<","-... < 1310723895 919554 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Because if the non-program [ maps to 9, then what program does 9 map to? < 1310723899 627632 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And as long as you don't need a bijection, the same thing in C is equally trivial, just with a larger alphabet. < 1310723900 641820 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still countable < 1310723937 39664 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not including comments. < 1310723964 640081 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Comments do not affect the program. < 1310723983 317360 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither does replacing quicksort with mergesort < 1310723988 124784 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: but what you are saying is that I can make a Java to bf translator. It is completely theoretically possible? < 1310723992 68978 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You think those should produce equal numbers too? < 1310724004 49661 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I am rather disturbed that you haven't realised this earlier. < 1310724008 387602 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Obviously this is ignoring I/O issues. < 1310724013 549448 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Ask ais about gcc-bf. < 1310724022 90876 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any ASCII string can be converted into a base-128 number < 1310724052 922977 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: that doens't really prove anything about programming languages. < 1310724097 808387 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As the vast majority of programming languages use ASCII, there must be less valid programs for a particular language than there are valid ASCII strings < 1310724098 373594 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, well, okay yes it does. < 1310724116 403938 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the valid programs of a language are a subset of this. < 1310724156 530099 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: but isn't ignoring IO issues a huge problem in writing a complete translator? < 1310724164 92036 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I need Lymia here so I can get her to coerce the right people to expose something through the Bukkit API < 1310724173 969758 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: IO is not part of the definition of computational classes. < 1310724198 267226 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: "Besides, with PSOX..." < 1310724203 66822 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Nothing's stopping you giving brainfuck file capabilities, say, by feeding its input and output to a program ... yeah, what fizzie said. < 1310724211 154256 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Honestly you should know this off by heart. :p < 1310724221 717426 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, but it's still impossible to write a Java to bf translator because of that. < 1310724231 947366 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because Java can read from multiple input and output sources. < 1310724234 981393 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :while bf has only one < 1310724262 422964 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not necessarily < 1310724271 434744 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could have a Java implementation that errored out on every file operation. < 1310724273 625195 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's as simple as mapping rational numbers to integers < 1310724287 56578 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ha... < 1310724287 218627 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, you're confusing library and core language. < 1310724298 474144 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not "ha"; that's how Microsoft got Windows declared POSIX-compliant. < 1310724379 381344 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I think you're confusing "a Java to bf translator" with whatever you think I'm talking about. < 1310724421 374170 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm feeling bored, I may install Haiku < 1310724474 22507 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Install Debian GNU/Hurd, they're going to give it an "official release" status in Debian wheezy, I hear. < 1310724618 494295 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, I believe a translator is possible if the input string is known at translation. < 1310724639 269421 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Input string"? < 1310724654 711515 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, no, because Java can also write to multiple output sources. < 1310724700 718947 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java's class library can also speak to the network and open windows on some screens, but all those are just boring practical details that you can ignore and/or work around. < 1310724718 75901 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you say "theoretically possible", it's not very surprising people interpret you in a theoretical computer science context. < 1310724722 78908 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like I said, you can map all that to the byte input and output facilities BF has. < 1310724726 290404 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's all a matter of interpretation. < 1310724729 185917 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"boring practical details you can ignore" means that the kind of translator I'm talking about is impossible. < 1310724735 3528 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, ooh, wait. < 1310724738 271553 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :* [PoppaVic] (~pops@unaffiliated/poppavic): It's all translators and context < 1310724744 399009 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's all translators and context, that's what it is. < 1310724762 372729 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: It isn't; you just need to interpret the input and output streams unconventionally. < 1310724778 889014 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather than a console, you just need to interpret it as an IO layer. < 1310724784 516527 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's nothing special/interesting/theoretically important. < 1310724788 891407 :rodgort!~rodgort@li125-242.members.linode.com QUIT :Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs) < 1310724791 34235 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes, there needs to be a seperate program to map the input and output streams to locations. < 1310724804 345210 :rodgort!~rodgort@li125-242.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1310724816 289544 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because for bf, the inputs all have to be concatenated together, as do the outputs. There is a seperate program that has to sort out what goes where... < 1310724824 205903 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that bf cannot do everything Java can do. < 1310724830 360446 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Separate program" < 1310724834 683676 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :A console is a "separate program" in that sense too. < 1310724852 875482 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed. < 1310724855 854906 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, but if you're going to use the word "theoretically", you can't jumble it up with vagueness related to the various minutiae of operating systems. < 1310724874 876872 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such a translator is perfectly possible, it would just require another program to implement /on Unix/. < 1310724879 568512 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You said "theoretically", so Unix is irrelevant. < 1310724893 403960 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is possible to translate Java programs to brainfuck programs. < 1310724910 559718 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, but why is there no theoretical way to talk about input and output to multiple sources? < 1310724946 217269 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :When did I say there isn't? The question is completely irrelevant to the question of whether there exists such a translator. < 1310724952 885719 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For any Turing-equivalent machine m, it is possible to map any initialization for m to a unique integer. < 1310725009 409434 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can we agree that true? < 1310725051 148423 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1310725062 769559 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :here is my question < 1310725065 425476 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1310725075 992359 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it that makes a Java program identical to a bf program for the purposes of translation? < 1310725082 985000 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :turing-completeness < 1310725088 240528 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1310725090 86690 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :turing-equivalence < 1310725099 809906 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is? < 1310725115 746563 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being computationally equivalent to a Turing machine < 1310725123 943060 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :intuitively, at least, I would that they perform the same computations. < 1310725127 575893 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: universal turing machine < 1310725130 260704 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*would think < 1310725131 359623 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: do you know the definition of turing complete < 1310725146 601640 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not formally, no. < 1310725148 344875 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :this article might help clear up any questions you have: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Turing-complete < 1310725154 323349 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh wait < 1310725157 926849 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first paragraph is idiotic < 1310725164 449283 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness < 1310725167 494793 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, i guessed right, it's cpressey's fault < 1310725188 21356 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: that might be better, yes. < 1310725205 715731 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so I certainly belive that bf and Java can compute anything a universal Turing Machine can. < 1310725224 945173 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... I do not believe that can be translated perfectly. A complete mapping of valid Java programs to bf programs. < 1310725235 196087 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you are wrong. have a nice day. < 1310725262 144370 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I cannot translate netbeans to bf. < 1310725267 95731 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't say that, you have to say why he is wrong < 1310725270 266927 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elliott < 1310725305 307706 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I would, but he's expecting explanations like a teacher would give, while arguing like a peer, and I'm busy < 1310725320 877921 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough < 1310725335 363950 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got the time, but not the know-how < 1310725354 721917 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :We just need oerjan to out-grumpy everyone until they shut up and agree. < 1310725367 497083 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For any algorithm that can be defined in Java, that algorithm can be defined in brainfuck < 1310725388 55600 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, indeed, Lazy K or Befunge-98 < 1310725391 126749 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, okay, I think I understand actually. < 1310725391 404784 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Seriously, if you talk about "translating in theory", then people are going to take the computational-complexity view on this. If you say something like "Java runtime has all kinds of IO-related features that Brainfuck implementations don't tend to have, and the Brainfuck language doesn't exactly define", then I don't think you'll get so many people disagreeing. < 1310725421 119586 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Though the latter's a really inane statement to make.) < 1310725422 950946 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I was not originally talking about theory, it came up as part of the conversation. I am saying that you cannot translate to Jave to bf perfectly so that the same thing happens despite a change in language. < 1310725441 508675 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, I understand, that for theoretical purposes, where the IO goes does not matter. < 1310725446 869504 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only thing that is important is the computations. < 1310725467 470040 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: thanks < 1310725479 314415 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for saying what i would have, but better) < 1310725493 543925 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that Java programs themselves rely on other programs to put the input and output of programs into different locations.. < 1310725512 597266 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, this is pretty vague.. < 1310725524 747391 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as OpenGL < 1310725532 469014 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: what you do not realise is that brainfuck's IO perfectly admits _interpretations_ that allow it to do just as much as Java. < 1310725543 684847 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is nothing saying that the input stream has to be hooked up directly to the user, or the output stream directly to the user. < 1310725559 727769 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't suggest that. < 1310725572 330338 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, if two programs in two different language compute the same thing, shouldn't they produce the same output? < 1310725572 884617 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java-the-language doesn't really define any form of IO, anyway. There's Java-the-class-library (also called Java) which does, but the part that's called "Java language specification" doesn't. < 1310725575 112162 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, what you are saying is so completely vague that I have no idea how to respond to it apart from that. < 1310725596 701025 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing machines are the archetype of turing completeness, and yet have no IO < 1310725626 747305 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I is manipulating the data tape before runtime and O is looking at the data type after the program halts < 1310725633 335729 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tape, not type < 1310725698 608727 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I still feel that there should be some way to explain why Java programs cannot perfectly translate to bf and produce the same result... < 1310725707 174969 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : but, if two programs in two different language compute the same thing, shouldn't they produce the same output? < 1310725707 364023 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. < 1310725725 288739 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *think*, but don't quote me on this, that it can be phrased in terms of bijections. < 1310725756 121847 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: that is basically what i was trying to convey with my interpretation-of-IO talk. < 1310725763 318435 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :PSOX being a "real-world" example. < 1310725773 363002 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: There is no way because they can. < 1310725808 518237 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :PSOX? Phantasy Star Online for XBox? < 1310725809 527588 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cannot be convinced until there is a bf program that is equivalent to netbeans. < 1310725828 864798 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Enjoy wallowing in your self-created ignorance then? < 1310725830 782607 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, check the wiki; also years of logs because it turned into a Sgeo-meme. < 1310725848 31579 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet:The framework or the IDE? < 1310725853 732839 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the IDe. < 1310725884 532308 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a Sge​o-meme < 1310725898 331681 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FFS, is the term for computational equivalence not 'computational equivalence'? < 1310725899 504586 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: A rare South-American insect. < 1310725906 890184 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Googling it only turns up Wolfram crap. < 1310725927 715827 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I was never really talking about computational equivalence... < 1310725929 198410 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: No cheating please. < 1310725930 635169 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :not initially. < 1310725948 294118 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yeah, don't you cheat < 1310725950 466964 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand that all Java programs are computationally equivalent to some BF program. < 1310725951 805887 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: What am I cheating < 1310725996 987888 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I am specifically saying that the BF language, by itself, cannot be used to create an IDE, while Java can. < 1310725999 954348 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe I just have the wront fonts or encoding selected. < 1310726011 568819 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that there is something that makes these languages non-equivalent for the purposes of translation. < 1310726012 416431 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Stop that incessant cheating! < 1310726023 397725 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: CHEATING IS FUCKING UNACCEPTABLE < 1310726049 155956 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll just keep doing what I was doing < 1310726059 700523 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1310726063 451339 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net NICK :TanebAway < 1310726064 473320 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I have no idea what zzo is talking about, I just felt like accusing you < 1310726071 386854 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Same here. < 1310726077 462197 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I realized that < 1310726080 234958 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You're somehow so... well-accusable. < 1310726081 899716 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do know what he's talking about < 1310726083 438075 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is also possible I am wrong < 1310726095 784320 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Due to wrong fonts or encoding < 1310726102 763183 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise I could run a magical program that transforms every piece of Java software into a BF program that is exactly the same in every way. I run the BF program, and I can use it to edit text files on my file system. < 1310726173 950466 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Your repeated refusal to understand how IO streams can be viewed in different ways and this is the only thing that makes BF IO's normal interpretation different from the Java class library IO's normal interpretation will not make your statements any more relevant, or your objections any more true < 1310726191 388931 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should probably focus on trying to understand why you're wrong instead of convincing us we are < 1310726193 870723 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: His point is just that you need a wrapper written in non-BF < 1310726207 759165 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I am saying that no one has shown that I am wrong. < 1310726223 13177 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: That's an operating system detail; nothing says the BF streams have to be connected directly to a console < 1310726252 66696 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like I said, a Java program could output and take input in PSOX form directly with a console, just as much as a BF interpreter could have PSOX built right in < 1310726254 912165 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: when have I mentioned a console? I am talking about input and output... < 1310726270 43487 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I give up. < 1310726283 264374 :TanebAway!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net NICK :Taneb < 1310726286 653291 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back < 1310726326 374484 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I can make out, the point is the "Java runtime has features that Brainfuck implementations don't have, and the Brainfuck standard -- such as it is -- doesn't require" one, but I can't quite figure out why that's a point that would be necessary to make. < 1310726338 579764 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's all he has left? < 1310726356 751042 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that point makes a complete translation impossible. < 1310726361 719840 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong. < 1310726368 886431 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As bf does not have a standard IO implementation, it could be assumed that the IO uses PSOX < 1310726369 939820 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point is just that you need to distribute something non-BF in the BF environment that implements the Java < 1310726380 662382 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :without relying on a seperate program, yes. < 1310726382 538884 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You need to distribute something non-BF in the BF environment < 1310726384 728823 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. a BF interpreter < 1310726396 626379 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: and these interpreter will write to different files how? < 1310726396 851406 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Right, just as you need a JVM in the Java < 1310726398 7896 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, where does it say in the spec, for instance, that , and . read and write ASCII characters? < 1310726401 222239 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Right < 1310726401 384557 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :by.... creating a new language. < 1310726406 584484 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: So that's really not what he's saying < 1310726431 572875 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: nowhere. < 1310726445 274299 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :..that isn't what I'm talking about. I haven't even mentioned ASCII. < 1310726460 454077 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: < 1310726460 982898 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :. Outputs ASCII code under pointer < 1310726461 156522 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :, Reads char and stores ASCII under ptr < 1310726497 858356 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, dammit. < 1310726520 778360 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is impossible, in one bf program, to output "Hello" to stream A, and "World" to stream B, without fundamentally altering the language. < 1310726525 233041 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: If we go by Müller, BF is sub-Turing and this whole idiocy is irrelevant < 1310726535 468553 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is very possible in Java to do this. < 1310726544 961988 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I figure the difference is just that if you take a standard JVM that's all you need, but if you take a standard BF you need something on top < 1310726547 368458 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Anyway, you could easily implement a conversion layer on , and . without violating the spec < 1310726554 726766 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Müller's spec doesn't look sub-Turing < 1310726561 214404 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, OK, but his impls were < 1310726562 32905 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Sure, but "standard" is purely a cultural/conventional thing < 1310726565 209289 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, hey, suppose I make an interpreter that writes every other character output to a different stream? < 1310726573 619853 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this has nothing to do with theoretics. I am saying no practical translator exists. Why is my assertion immediately interpretered as theoretical? < 1310726581 361383 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: CakeProphet cannot prove something mathematically impossible just because of cultural norms < 1310726615 935589 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, FFS, he has acknowledged that they're computationally equivalent. < 1310726655 55618 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but he's still trying to make a separate point, and that point is wrong < 1310726672 727028 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Because you said "theoretically"? < 1310726677 879118 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Because you're using absolutes like "cannot"? < 1310726732 788312 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, I asked "is it theoretically possible?" < 1310726739 587495 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is not.. < 1310726741 220589 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've completely lost focus on this debate, so I'm going to make a bf interpreter piping all IO through PSOX < 1310726743 411321 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your statement is "You can't expect a translated Java-to-BF program to have the same IO semantics when interpreted by an implementation that has different IO semantics in practice"... well, that's literally a direct tautology, and also not what you're saying. < 1310726745 832395 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Yes, it _is_. < 1310726753 844479 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am done with this. < 1310726766 903800 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Also defining in which "streams" (whatever they are) the BF output goes is very much not "fundamentally altering the language", since the language doesn't say where it goes. < 1310726772 196853 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm done here too. < 1310726773 478948 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are wrong and until you accept you are wrong and try to understand why, you can continue believing whatever you want as far as I'm concerned. < 1310726787 624666 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll still be wrong, though. < 1310726795 48834 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: but in Java, the language does say where the streams go. < 1310726800 168932 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is some difference < 1310726812 988917 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the language itself. < 1310726823 342399 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: The "Java Language Specification" does not even say how to make any output, so... < 1310726845 199127 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "Java" system does, yes. < 1310726847 369428 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Those streams can work just as well in the BF, with a wrapper that handles it. < 1310726908 810554 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... < 1310726932 65608 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh < 1310726934 218800 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can compare the Java Language Specification document, which -- I mean, just read the name -- defines the "language itself", with the rather less formal BF language specification. < 1310726952 384281 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bf interpreter with PSOX is suggested right in the PSOX readme < 1310726954 323922 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, the output has to change in order to accomodate the wrapper. < 1310726976 408084 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"python PSOX.py bf somebf.bf" < 1310726989 16662 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Right, but that's internal to the translation process and doesn't matter. < 1310726993 490740 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Well, yeah, it /is/ Sgeo's pet vapourware < 1310727021 826796 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1310727022 722600 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, wait, PSOX was vapourware? < 1310727041 672620 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you just missed him < 1310727053 505308 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1310727069 483718 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, X messing up again. < 1310727071 599470 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:50:22: elliott, wait, PSOX was vapourware? < 1310727071 780026 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1310727079 525301 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but doesn't the program have to compute something that is non-equivalent to the source language in order to output data differently? < 1310727082 538877 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought there was a kind of implementation. < 1310727091 458729 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*source program < 1310727091 795504 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is, but it was late, and woefully incomplete. < 1310727093 465668 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, FFS, fix your goddamn site. < 1310727157 647757 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION understands, to an extent, what is being said, but still thinks there is a discrepancy < 1310727158 362779 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Depends on how you define "compute something that is non-equivalent". If you think printing "please print 'x' to stdout" is computationally nonequivalent to printing "x", then yes. < 1310727234 475196 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Oh man, that means that your libc introducing another layer of abstraction behind the scenes could cause your interpreter to become "computationally nonequivalent". < 1310727236 622222 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweet < 1310727250 738907 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yep, exactly :-P < 1310727293 589526 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :these differing abstractions require different computations in order to generate the write output. < 1310727304 257543 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...heh, s/write/right/ < 1310727307 53551 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite true. < 1310727319 163395 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depending on the compiler and compiler flags used, you'll also get different computations. < 1310727322 158406 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the hardware, etc. < 1310727331 600960 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: If those two things are not equivalent, I find it hard to believe a BF method of summing up two numbers in multiple distinct steps could ever be "equivalent" to the "computations" a JVM 'add' instruction does. < 1310727341 634968 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Also the underlying fabric of the physical universe your computer is in. < 1310727354 442982 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Right. < 1310727355 329172 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: That's what REALLY drives the computations, after all. < 1310727363 279524 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, the universe we can maybe assume to be constant. :-) < 1310727370 455999 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No, it's YOUR MIND that is IMAGINING the universe that drives it. < 1310727374 430354 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: DON'T BE SO SURE < 1310727384 669607 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's actually my mind < 1310727385 384441 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Maybe not in practice, but in theory. < 1310727399 369762 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: But I thought CakeProphet was talking about practice now >:) < 1310727412 993347 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am trying to fit practice with theory. < 1310727415 552529 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are all figments of my imagination < 1310727429 618751 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence the silly names < 1310727445 441663 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the theory is inadequate if it can't describe what is happening in practice. < 1310727457 154563 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Have fun < 1310727504 579359 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gonna make another statement: < 1310727537 713742 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : Four score and seven years ago, ... < 1310727545 881794 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any algorithm that can be encoded in brainfuck can also in executed by Java, and vice versa. < 1310727572 306894 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*encoded in, not exexuted by < 1310727593 338645 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, they can both output the C code for the algorithm < 1310727615 627950 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Deewiant: DON'T BE SO SURE < 1310727620 15077 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they can both run the algorith, if it encoded correctly < 1310727639 166539 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if it isn't constant, you can assume there are some rules for the inconstancy, which is just another kind of constant. < 1310727639 703656 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a program compiling brainfuck codes to LLVM. And it can use optimizations of LLVM. < 1310727682 685134 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm okay... < 1310727749 938567 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe a translator can determine the output of a Java program that will match the output of a bf program running in the same IO layer... < 1310727758 784987 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this makes no sense. < 1310727768 587686 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes perfect sense < 1310727774 27937 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just tricky to implement < 1310727820 992049 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :None of it makes sense! It's all baloney! Aaaaaah! *sets self on fire, runs to the forest* < 1310727842 203478 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, that's why we can't have nice stuff < 1310727926 502366 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe the formation rules of the Java language provide enough information to determine the exact output of a Java program in a way such that a bf program can be constructed that produces the same output. < 1310727934 931368 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't worry, the snow in the forest should put him out. < 1310727959 6666 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: i'm afraid you've ceased to make any sense < 1310727962 244794 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, *sigh*. < 1310727964 322791 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Oops that is too bad, because now you cannot see because there is no more fire < 1310727971 993605 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is too dark < 1310727975 636265 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the output of a Java program is dependent on its environment. < 1310727981 142010 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take every output function, translate it into Brainfuck. < 1310727998 684317 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, you don't understand basic *programming* now. < 1310728020 142521 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, ah, but it's light until like 1 o'clock in the morning in Finland. < 1310728038 574325 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: indeed, a java program is a function from World to World < 1310728040 17079 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :/claps < 1310728056 627321 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: O, then it is OK. I didn't know that at first. < 1310728077 523706 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how can a language translator, which is given only the languages and source string, know which output to produce. < 1310728081 413731 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net < 1310728082 18287 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And dawn is so early, it's actually before midnight. < 1310728087 795413 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: ... < 1310728088 515997 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Compilers 101 < 1310728097 210479 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what Deewiant said < 1310728112 534359 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, are you actually studying anything? < 1310728119 562441 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there programs that can convert a native binary into LLVM code? < 1310728143 474766 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's probably studying more than me. I just read Wikipedia from time to time. < 1310728154 918325 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'm a visual thinker which makes me a poor quantum physicist." < 1310728156 149620 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Helsinki at 01am, http://www.flickr.com/photos/ihmis-suski/4722433968/sizes/z/in/photostream/ (at least based on the name) < 1310728157 6166 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Die in a fire. < 1310728174 276124 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I don't know. Are you actually holding a conversation with me, or just being condescending? < 1310728176 454707 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, dear god, I was actually right? < 1310728179 245237 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: libcpu < 1310728194 841697 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, I'm curious, because I have absolutely no idea what you actually do. < 1310728218 518459 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: To some degree, sure. Though only the northern part of the country's actually above the arctic circle and gets the whole "sun does not actually have time to set" thing. < 1310728225 744214 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most people here over 18 are doing some form of CS at university. < 1310728230 384138 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing. I might as well be a ghost. < 1310728235 214511 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Or at least some form of BS. < 1310728257 879863 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: let's be honest, you've been pretty condescending in assuming that you've proved everyone in here as well as pretty much everyone who has ever done CS fundamentally wrong < 1310728259 573907 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, it's the best. < 1310728260 767432 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: OK. Would instruction trace data help? Some instruction trace data (not necessarily all, except in the case of restricted harvard) can be figured out by static analysis. < 1310728274 193698 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I haven't proved anything. < 1310728286 857293 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back when I was just Hoover life was just full of walls and doors and things holding me back. < 1310728298 256660 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am seeking to understand a discrepancy that I am seeing between theory and practice. < 1310728311 808335 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No your not! < 1310728316 74631 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't know, I know almost nothing about libcpu. < 1310728319 934351 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're being overly pedantic! < 1310728336 674227 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And things seem wrong to you because you expect them to be wrong! < 1310728362 204436 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing wrong pedanticism, as long as it's correct < 1310728364 516312 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :[asterisk]wrong with < 1310728386 539987 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately the highest layer of pedanticism on this issue definitely states that Java is equivalent to BF :-P < 1310728586 274383 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl print "Java" eq "BF" ? "equivalent" : "not equivalent" < 1310728586 880359 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :not equivalent < 1310728590 417426 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha, proved you worng! < 1310728622 269039 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I am seeking to understand a discrepancy that I am seeing between theory and practice. < 1310728629 150185 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*There is no discrepancy*. < 1310728646 318660 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just don't understand what computational equivalence means. < 1310728658 488979 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It isn't even about computational equivalence and it hasn't been for like an hour. < 1310728670 526567 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : And things seem wrong to you because you expect them to be wrong! < 1310728675 683655 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's about CakeProphet not realising that the only thing distinguishing Java and BF's IO models is basically conventional implementation techniques. < 1310728680 806991 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that how quotes are done here? < 1310728681 884033 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's about cookies now. < 1310728685 328538 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Yes. :p < 1310728692 670972 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, good < 1310728752 829167 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Is that how quotes are done here? < 1310728754 344625 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1310728763 14677 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're done differently elsewhere? < 1310728773 583348 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno < 1310728779 500890 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm very rarely on IRC < 1310728797 195645 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, this is pretty much the third channel I've ever been on < 1310728802 506618 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the first on Freenode < 1310728835 760082 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first two were pretty crazy and even less on-topic than here < 1310728847 474371 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have to beat them! < 1310728868 350685 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The topic of discussion is now the historical merits of the Whig party. < 1310728882 422150 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Is that... possible? < 1310728896 643620 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evidentally < 1310728906 207958 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evidentistry. < 1310728907 611193 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We occasionally discuss esoteric programming languages < 1310728921 10996 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Which Whig Party? < 1310728921 586572 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like here! < 1310728927 820996 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, you choose! < 1310728952 716795 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's do the first one on the Wikipedia redirect page < 1310728962 383334 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A faction of the Scottish Covenanters during the 17th-century Wars of the Three Kingdoms, and the original Whigs. (See also Whigg and Whiggamore Raid)" < 1310728963 228199 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did the two others in fact have a topic? < 1310728972 325343 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1310728988 317062 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A small MSPAFA on the MS Paint Adventure forums, and TV Tropes < 1310728993 875269 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Respectively < 1310729000 993730 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :TV Tropes does IRC? < 1310729005 944505 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1310729012 990022 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, oh, you're an MSPA fan too. < 1310729018 268565 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1310729023 107237 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = readFile "a.txt" < 1310729026 866043 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :translate to bf plz < 1310729037 993167 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TroperIRCChannel < 1310729062 363874 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was told that IRC is a turing complete language. < 1310729080 214360 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're talking about IRP, aren't you? < 1310729082 101400 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean IRP, right < 1310729084 942384 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ninja'd < 1310729089 620442 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Error 709: Ninja'd < 1310729099 87749 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, yes, that. < 1310729130 532719 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: .[>.] where EOF=0 < 1310729130 930872 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :#irp < 1310729146 145905 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But seriously, it's just a joke. < 1310729196 522960 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please write this exact line unless it has been written more than once before. < 1310729213 729993 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done. < 1310729226 40447 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRP is a bit nondeterministic. < 1310729231 151675 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+++++++++>++++++++++>+++++++++++>+++>++++++>+++>+++++++++++>++++++++++>+++++++++>++++++++++>+++++++>++++++++++>++++++++++>++++++++++>+++>+++>+++++++++>++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++++++>+++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<-]>+++++++++.>+++++++.>+++++.>.>++.>+.>++.>++++.>+.>+++++++.>.>.>+++++.>++++++++.>+.>++.>++++.>+++++++.>++++++.>++++++.>.>++++++.>++++. < 1310729238 85636 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/iq2nk/how_can_autistic_savants_like_kim_peek_completely/c25sdgc < 1310729251 319169 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is it with people believing this is how the brain works. < 1310729256 572246 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could someone roll a standard D6 and tell me the number? < 1310729258 309595 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+++++++++>++++++++++>+++++++++++>+++>++++++>+++>+++++++++++>++++++++++>+++++++++>++++++++++>+++++++>++++++++++>++++++++++>++++++++++>+++>+++>+++++++++>++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++++++>+++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<-]>+++++++++.>+++++++.>+++++.>.>++.>+.>++.>++++.>+.>+++++++.>.>.>+++++.>++++++++.>+.>++.>++++.>+++++++.>++++++.>++++++.>.>++++++.>++++. < 1310729258 678742 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Is that the PSOX version? :) < 1310729259 30796 :EgoBot!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = readFile "a.txt" < 1310729269 875388 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww, you should have made it the PSOX version. < 1310729270 211341 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Nah, it needs a GHC wrapper < 1310729278 535069 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: That doesn't count, it's Turing-complete :-P < 1310729297 161478 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so what you're saying < 1310729299 174629 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it can be done with a simpler wrapper too < 1310729323 446398 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I dislike the use "wrapper" here as it implies the standard IO interpretation isn't a wrapper mapping it to standard C IO < 1310729328 732751 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which it is, just as much as any other wrapper < 1310729333 791588 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not something additional < 1310729347 416989 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the bf program . is Turing-equivalent to main = readFile "a.txt", since there exists some wrapper that takes a null character and as a result outputs that string. < 1310729355 928387 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an additional layer between it and the platform < 1310729385 586460 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I think everyone's lost interest in seriously "debating" this with you, so I'm just going to poke fun at the sidelines < 1310729391 457847 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the sidelines. On the sidelines? Along the sidelines? < 1310729392 691934 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :God knows. < 1310729401 564887 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sidelines: Poke < 1310729403 697515 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: So is C stdio; you'd need read/write to be direct < 1310729405 332967 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :until the sidelines < 1310729408 19163 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(On Unix) < 1310729418 463362 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes, it is < 1310729436 785366 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that's fine, I'm only looking for serious discussion on the matter. < 1310729464 825018 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :any fun-poking just suggests that you have nothing to contribute. < 1310729486 220195 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's fighting words! < 1310729490 426612 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Sure thing, Mr. Albert "Computer Science is Inadequate Because Java has GUI Widgets" Einstein. < 1310729494 282578 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, *them < 1310729508 90833 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to contribute a PSOX version, but it's so complicated. :/ :\ < 1310729526 857038 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, unwarranted arrogance is at least not an uncommon trait in CS, so maybe CakeProphet could capitalise on this somehow. < 1310729642 820500 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what does the PSOX version output, out of curiosity < 1310729698 655388 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The contents of a.txt. < 1310729710 120029 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome, thanks zzo < 1310729716 819540 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's what PSOX outputs. < 1310729724 164378 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1310729771 778254 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hang on, wasn't this debate originally about countability? < 1310729797 113101 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/ipsly/how_do_bananas_exist_why_dont_they_just_explode/ < 1310729797 113228 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Best question. < 1310729841 222536 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then . instruction BF does not actually produce any output? < 1310729844 949408 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :+of < 1310729882 818738 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Do you seriously still believe you're right about this? Honestly curious. < 1310729886 619224 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I am pretty sure a BF program that was written over PSOX would output something different than the contents of a.txt < 1310729895 384236 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : I believe that would imply that the set of valid programs is countable. < 1310729901 792282 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what started the debate < 1310729908 919508 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Debate" < 1310729924 444940 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: fiz‍zie doesn't know what the BF would output because "it's so complicated" so he didn't do it. < 1310729928 689075 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :debate := shouting match < 1310729932 52307 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The PSOX version would output the contents of a.txt, when you run it in a compatible BF system, yes. As for which strings are needed to make PSOX do that, I just said it's too complicated. < 1310729936 828791 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :g2g, bye < 1310729944 441800 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net NICK :TanebBeLunching < 1310729989 607800 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then are the Java programs that output the PSOX string required to output a.txt, and the Java program that outputs a.txt, computationally equivalent? < 1310729991 524777 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: At the very least, when run on a non-PSOX-compliant BF systems (assuming you can find any in this day and age of PSOX dominance), it'd just output the init string and wait for you to respond. < 1310730000 724797 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it seems they would translate to the same bf program. < 1310730077 359601 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The PSOX version of a Java program that pretended to speak the PSOX protocol in the standard output would, when run in a PSOXy BF, output whatever the PSOX version of the a.txt-outputting Java program would output when ran in a non-PSOXy BF. Clearly. < 1310730133 285590 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :...lol < 1310730138 124894 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly! < 1310730151 36574 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but no really, that makes sense) < 1310730232 486217 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, in the PSOX version you'd need to use both the . and , instructions to cause output, or even to get past the PSOX init. It's still very much BF, nevertheless. The difference would be sort-of analogous to using either fwrite() or write() in a C program to write something out. < 1310730452 360547 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, so let's say I had a bf to Java translator. < 1310730452 360862 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very simple. constructs a resizing array and then translate bf instructions to standard Java operations on the array, with stdout and stdin IO for . and , < 1310730452 360969 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :can I translate every Java program into this subset of Java? < 1310730452 361078 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a different IO interpretation to the interpretation the programs you're translating were written for, yes. < 1310730452 361321 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't that imply that the IO is meaningless? There is always a suitable interpretation for the output. < 1310730452 361434 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1310730452 361525 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you like things to imply ridiculous things that they don't actually imply: definitely. < 1310730452 361631 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1310730452 361785 :glogbot!Gregor@codu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds > 1310730458 491696 JOIN :#esoteric > 1310730482 955196 JOIN :#esoteric > 1310730503 973099 JOIN :#esoteric > 1310730524 978494 JOIN :#esoteric > 1310730547 841426 JOIN :#esoteric < 1310730548 159937 :glogbot!Gregor@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1310730575 923757 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Translating Java to BF isn't really related to how your BF implementation is done, or even whether you have one. Though as a practical matter maybe you could consider a built-in PSOX support using the Java runtime's facilities. < 1310730591 444124 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1310730594 581457 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would let you stick an arbitrary amount of BF-based layers in Java programs, if they happened to run too fast. < 1310730600 828532 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A common complaint about Java systems.) < 1310730640 362275 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to me that changing the nature of the IO changes the computations required. < 1310730664 688800 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in order to make Java programs PSOX-compliant, you would first have to translate all Java programs into PSOX-compliant versions < 1310730670 626823 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :then translate those to bf < 1310730686 150602 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1310730709 891903 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in order for the bf code to be computationally equivalent to the original Java code, would means that the original Java code is computationally equivalent to the PSOX-compliant version < 1310730711 953845 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org NICK :Guest64652 < 1310730722 913079 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: As Deewiant has painstakingly pointed out, if you take that view, then a change in the internals of your C library can cause a program to "compute something different". < 1310730726 503494 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though they compute differently < 1310730755 234070 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no, because changing the C library changes the C program. < 1310730755 407932 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, you can't compile anything, unless it causes the universe to make the exact same state change. < 1310730780 611596 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Ugh, please deal with this or pass the buck on to somebody else, I'm way too busy to restate the obvious. < 1310730810 613370 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: If you include the dynamic libraries as part of the C program, you have to include the PSOX as part of the whatever-is-using-the-PSOX program etc < 1310730832 936126 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: The point in the computational equivalence is not the exact sequence of operations followed when executing; those are obviously going to be different for different languages. They're going to be different for the same language when using different compilers, too. < 1310730856 233485 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is computational equivalence then? < 1310730915 114139 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read the Church-Turing thesis. < 1310730963 246521 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What definition are you using there? Computational equivalence seems to me a much more formal notion than Church-Turing < 1310731001 464788 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A compiler from Java to BF is not going to be able to straight-forwardly map each separate Java "computation" (statement? expression?) into a distinct piece of BF code, anyway. < 1310731015 668308 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Dunno, just blurting stuff < 1310731081 911691 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :So translating file.write(42); into whatever sequence of BF that is required to output the byte 42 in a PSOXy system is not really changing the "computations", or what the program in general does. < 1310731086 749891 :TanebBeLunching!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net NICK :Taneb < 1310731090 982450 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello again < 1310731098 863727 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: hi, nothing has changed < 1310731101 979621 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: As you can see, we've been making lots of progress. < 1310731110 443977 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Detect the optimist and the pessimist.) < 1310731144 457932 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mumble mumble "realist" < 1310731146 59446 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for the purposes of computation, IO is effectively a no op? < 1310731154 727476 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1310731205 509852 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :O is < 1310731209 403740 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I isn't, since it's... well, input. < 1310731214 965462 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I can depend on O < 1310731224 258533 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But all input is available as a stack at the start of the program < 1310731256 230425 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't the order important? < 1310731263 343145 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, for the purposes of computation, all I has already happened < 1310731337 59306 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Like I've said, every program is a function from RealWorld to RealWorld < 1310731352 681058 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can model IO of any type merely by implementing the type RealWorld < 1310731370 393503 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :So PSOX provides a stream-based RealWorld type for anything with byte-based IO that handles things like file IO, networking, etc. < 1310731394 493550 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compiling Java to BF is just picking a concrete RealWorld type, then compiling the resulting function appropriately. < 1310731466 466646 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so that function is considered to not compute anything, or be part of the program. < 1310731483 471497 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? < 1310731485 920847 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That function _is_ the program. < 1310731506 817433 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, strictly speaking, the second part of that is true < 1310731531 517563 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first part isn't, though < 1310731582 938483 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a valid string in a programming language does not correspond to a program that can be translated. < 1310731604 36290 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :until the source and target environments are known as well < 1310731616 639888 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? No < 1310731627 221426 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program doesn't need to know the source or target enviroments < 1310731643 861043 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It takes a string, and converts it into a different string < 1310731646 531135 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Do you really not understand how you can compile a function without knowing its input at compile-time? < 1310731659 185968 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't, I really question whether you have the slightest bit of programming knowledge at all. < 1310731690 889815 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1310731693 251440 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: more like, without knowing how its output is supposed to be structured. < 1310731711 588921 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just talked about defining the structure of a RealWorld type, for christ's sake. < 1310731746 392447 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program will know the input and output formats < 1310731755 515322 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1310731759 177614 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :The compiler will know it's outputting for PSOX < 1310731760 30890 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or whatever < 1310731836 63585 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like I haven't different defintiions of program and language than what you guys are talking about. < 1310731839 66190 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*have < 1310731859 360335 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be perfectly honest I doubt you have a clear definition of either < 1310731970 270975 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :from my understanding of what you guys are talking about, the actual concrete layout of a program has nothing to do with the theoretical program itself. < 1310731991 153819 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define concrete layout < 1310731997 630394 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :they do not correspond in any way. < 1310732017 475946 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you mean that the syntactic structure of a program and the abstract computation it represents are not necessarily similar, well duh < 1310732033 239390 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Do you consider gcc not a translator because it can change the logical structure of a program due to optimisation? < 1310732067 356524 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the string, or list of tokens, or whatever, that makes the source code. I have a bf program that consists of ".", and because it is hooked up to a certain environment, it is computationally equivalent to a Java quine. < 1310732104 880645 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How the hell would that work? < 1310732115 624521 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you saying that you want a Java quine to compile into a BF quine that outputs the same as the Java program? < 1310732118 945152 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Herp derp < 1310732119 998966 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It outputs "0" < 1310732133 678773 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the CakeProphetBF environment, a bf program that outputs a single null character is a quine. < 1310732136 300491 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: You could have a FuckedUpPSOX where the way to output is by printing a nul byte < 1310732146 193612 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's really irrelevant, CakeProphet is just confused < 1310732180 902972 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: You can therefore make a Java environment that does similar < 1310732196 309688 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I am saying that a Java quine is computationally equivalent to the bf program ".". < 1310732197 358212 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except you're probably not that good at programming < 1310732204 894502 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because this environment exists. < 1310732210 879771 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it's not < 1310732214 148865 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Like I said: you're confused. < 1310732220 303508 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A quine is a program that outputs itself < 1310732225 459629 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to use my legendary buck-passing skills by pinging Deewiant and fizzie now, and go back to coding Java. < 1310732244 541447 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :By translating it, unless it is a cheating quine, it outputs the untranslated version < 1310732372 421252 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just going to hide here behind this convenient tree; I'm supposedly at work and all. < 1310732392 757536 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You can't pass the buck to a TREE! < 1310732394 742870 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I have an environment that outputs a Java quine when given a null character from the BF program. Therefore "." is computatinally equivalent to both the Java quine that it outputs and the bf program that is hooked up to stdio that outputs the java quine. < 1310732442 703537 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only if computatinally isn't a typo and it means something that I have no idea what < 1310732485 919216 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not going to be able to explain what is confusing me. < 1310732524 712064 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is computationally equivalent _in the context of your environment_. < 1310732544 652280 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In your environment, a computationally equivalent Java program would output "." < 1310732567 352356 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: um, no < 1310732610 357198 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if the environment of the target language is restricted and cannot do the same things that the source environment can do. < 1310732611 771728 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, trust elliott, he's probably more right than I am < 1310732624 876647 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, Java runtime compared to the standard bf environment (stdio) < 1310732664 727249 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the context of those two environments, there are Java programs that are not translatable to bf programs. < 1310732681 201114 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Example? < 1310732687 900223 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Buck-passin' = bassin' < 1310732688 249424 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :brbr < 1310732703 730802 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java program that reads a.txt and outputs it. < 1310732710 613983 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :to stdout < 1310732727 367073 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, no, that's not a good example. :P < 1310732778 368903 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, it is pretty fucking early and I am tired of this... so... yeah < 1310732803 268664 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I have made some progress towards clarifying what I was confused about. < 1310732808 175496 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me know when you realise you're wrong < 1310732918 1998 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am still positing that you cannot translate netbeans source code to a bf program that will do the exact same thing. < 1310732924 167983 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well he's right in that the Java standard library does more than brainfuck's , and . do < 1310732949 353473 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :standard bf, as it is specified. < 1310733005 967559 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: If hooked up to a console, yes < 1310733028 195953 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: If you take "standard BF" to mandate the interpretation of IO, then sure. Now imagine this scenario: < 1310733033 670568 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :"do the same thing" as in, windows will appear in your window manager, it is responsive to keyboard and mouse input, it will not work in the same systems that netbeans will not work in. < 1310733038 775002 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: The program prints out "draw a box"; "draw a line inside box A"; etc. < 1310733048 186223 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Two hours ago: CakeProphet: Seriously, if you talk about "translating in theory", then people are going to take the computational-complexity view on this. If you say something like "Java runtime has all kinds of IO-related features that Brainfuck implementations don't tend to have, and the Brainfuck language doesn't exactly define", then I don't think you'll get so many people disagreeing. < 1310733051 504187 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: If some underpaid worker read these instructions off a normal BF console output, < 1310733064 387643 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: And manually constructed the UI objects on a screen, < 1310733075 898609 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Then they would have caused the implementation to stop being standard BF by your argument. < 1310733081 790457 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes, I recall that < 1310733088 188112 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: O < 1310733114 535429 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: and so, nothing has changed, it is still impossible. < 1310733117 382393 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I just had a sense of that dezza fu. < 1310733130 260578 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And the "O" was a typo.) < 1310733171 964046 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: You're straying really close to "stubborn idiot" territory. When the entirety of #esoteric is telling you you're wrong about a point of basic computer science, you should probably admit you're almost certainly wrong and try and understand why, rather than arguing back. < 1310733178 730604 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Sure, that's an appeal to authority, but then so is education of all sorts.) < 1310733238 794488 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god, you're still at this? < 1310733249 987466 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: CakeProphet is, yes. < 1310733272 117477 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back < 1310733278 192556 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: hi, nothing changed < 1310733284 29614 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay < 1310733420 772821 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the entire point of this conversation has been to understand why I might be wrong. So far you have explained how theoretical computer science handles the issue, but not why I am wrong. In any case, I'm done. < 1310733450 892591 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuk theoretics, we gangsta computa programmas on the street no the real computaional equivalence < 1310733463 866898 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a gun pointed 2 ur head//// and a bf implementation with only console io < 1310733467 89524 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not what I said. < 1310733497 113654 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not a "fuck theoretics I am a pragmatist" stereotype. < 1310733522 483574 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess not fully understanding a subject = personal flaw < 1310733564 420881 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1310733569 422189 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1310733584 135511 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: it wasn't anything related, i was just being silly < 1310733608 773696 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :next time I talk about something on #esoteric I will make sure I know everything about it, otherwise I will be met with personal insults about how I haven't really been studying anything / can't program / etc < 1310733616 709504 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PART :#esoteric < 1310733675 831546 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It reminded me a bit of that Swordfish hacking scene, in fact. < 1310733721 453971 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i figured it was only a matter of time before he took being wrong personally < 1310733739 235185 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinda thought it would be sooner tbqh < 1310733809 142377 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : } else if (command.get("aliases") instanceof List) { < 1310733809 499575 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : commandAliases = (List) command.get("aliases"); < 1310733817 476640 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :IntelliJ, you can't seriously be complaining about that cast on the second line. < 1310733826 727586 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's... no way that value is going to change. < 1310733830 625128 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is so not an unchecked cast. < 1310733834 163993 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why don't you love me. < 1310733836 600525 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It could change concurrently < 1310733861 562881 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It's part of the command description YAML for the Bukkit plugin < 1310733877 372318 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even think you're /allowed/ to change it, even theoretically < 1310733881 61298 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :IntelliJ can't know that < 1310733889 3088 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it can < 1310733893 726941 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah but you can't SuppressWarnings an assignment :-( < 1310733899 380911 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bukkit? The Minecraft thing? < 1310733904 220611 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having said that IntelliJ knows way more than any computer should < 1310733906 708043 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Yes. < 1310733908 634200 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Sure you can < 1310733912 882966 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: How < 1310733914 825198 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe only a definition < 1310733917 504139 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1310733928 490601 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's a nasty double-lookup anyway :-P < 1310733941 649465 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just name it < 1310733947 610485 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: If it was d[k] instead of d.get(k) you wouldn't bat an eye at it :) < 1310733955 65144 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I would < 1310733968 207579 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Would you bat an eye at array[0] being used twice? < 1310733970 182966 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just as if it was *p < 1310733971 969907 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1310733974 594231 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously? < 1310733976 571181 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1310733982 309478 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (*p =/= badValue) < 1310733983 558321 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : f(*p); < 1310733986 20618 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't necessarily care < 1310733991 853989 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I would bat an eye at it < 1310733998 63887 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you name every subexpression? :-P < 1310734007 426148 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they have more than one use, I try to < 1310734016 974060 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java really needs a casting operator that converts nulls < 1310734026 662072 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Incidentally, what's the type of "command"? < 1310734053 899785 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Map, grossly enough < 1310734059 592436 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bukkit's API for this is kind of shitty < 1310734065 399104 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't even expose it as the normal YAML API < 1310734069 107332 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Right, so that can change concurrently and IntelliJ can't know < 1310734109 920234 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe if it were a HashMap or whatever's not synchronized it'd think it knows < 1310734110 131242 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : if (commandPermissionObject == null < 1310734110 305049 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : || !(sender instanceof Player) < 1310734110 479314 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : || permissionHandler.has((Player) sender, (String) commandPermissionObject)) { < 1310734112 612959 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Bat an eye plz < 1310734118 473632 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :At this GROSSE MULTI-LINE CONDITIONAL < 1310734126 599993 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :RELYING ON SHORT-CIRCUITING FOR CORRECTNESS < 1310734130 130080 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah < 1310734158 519729 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, you can cast it (List) without warnings, just avoid the generics there. < 1310734177 37035 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1310734180 920906 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That should get you a warning about not using generics :-P < 1310734203 275040 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do use -Xlint:all,-serial don't you < 1310734206 820457 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java is such a strange language, for what is essentially the most "standard" language out there < 1310734220 985552 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think "instanceof List" is equivalent to "instanceof List", anyway, since due to that type erasure thing the generics don't exist any more at runtime. < 1310734228 649609 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I just use whatever IntelliJ uses by default, which I think is actually based on its own static analysis framework rather than javac < 1310734234 99138 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's certainly faster than javac :-P < 1310734247 433238 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java is such a strange language, for what is essentially the most "standard" language out there < 1310734255 50029 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's a covert tautology < 1310734262 225547 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite possibly < 1310734281 50946 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still, Java's the weirdest member of the mainstream OOP canon by far < 1310734291 423018 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's got as many quirks as Eiffel < 1310734365 212727 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've had an idea < 1310734368 399364 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take brainfuck < 1310734385 393677 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Add as many new features and syntax sugar as you can < 1310734395 677241 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the hope of making a new language < 1310734405 325330 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's been done accidentally many a time :-P < 1310734411 314376 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is sensible and usable enough to go mainstream < 1310734423 339025 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still has brainfuck at its core < 1310734435 823334 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: < 1310734436 534265 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : } else if (aliasesObject instanceof List) { < 1310734436 708118 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : aliases = (List) aliasesObject; < 1310734439 7294 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Still complains < 1310734445 916717 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there's technically a way to make that fail :- < 1310734446 472838 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :P < 1310734505 526891 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: fizzie: "Illegal generic type for instanceof" < 1310734506 934427 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why < 1310734517 806218 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Different idea: functional brainfuck < 1310734518 673795 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't instanceof a generics type < 1310734522 290800 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : :( < 1310734524 315388 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I thought so. < 1310734538 220600 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But since you already pasted it, I thought it just did the same as instanceof List. < 1310734547 906419 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: fizzie: Which also means that the only way I can do a "checked" cast is with (List). < 1310734553 61399 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that you only looked at the diagnostic now < 1310734553 238038 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : IM GOING TO KILL MYSELF < 1310734564 29230 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "checked" doesn't mean that you have checked it at runtime, I don't think. < 1310734570 605395 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been trained to ignore squiggly red underlines by word processors < 1310734591 648176 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It's about scoping isn't it < 1310734597 574875 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :instanceof definitely lets you do a checked cast I thought < 1310734601 844882 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be a permissible cast to (List) even if you didn't instanceof-test. < 1310734616 567670 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not, because of the type of aliases being List < 1310734627 310067 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :And "aliases = (List) ((List) aliasesObject);" is also complained about :P < 1310734637 782124 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but that's because you try to cast to List. < 1310734652 168636 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's about the compile-time type-checking of generics, and casting to a genericized type goes around that. < 1310734655 997717 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1310734661 985795 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what would be fun? < 1310734666 44024 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you make an if branch body @SuppressWarnings easily? < 1310734681 829963 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Porting Netbeans to brainfuck just to annoy CakeProphet < 1310734682 732789 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not especially well-versed on the details. But you can always cast to plain (List), which is what the runtime type of the object is in reality. < 1310734693 999159 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you'll just need another cast to String when you get objects from it. < 1310734744 563186 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC the point is that you shouldn't have a List anywhere without the compiler being able to really check (not just trust your casts) that it in fact is a list of strings. < 1310734759 736556 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: So basically Java wants to be Coq :) < 1310734799 550748 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if there were some any cleaner workarounds than just avoiding the use of generics for the cases where your API gives you just an Object that you happen to "know" is a List. < 1310734818 768937 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : @SuppressWarnings("unchecked") List tmp = (List) aliasesObject; < 1310734818 942817 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : aliases = tmp; < 1310734827 85211 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now IntelliJ complains that tmp is a redundant variable :-D < 1310734829 889993 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I CAN'T WIN < 1310734844 738054 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It could technically be a Map or anything else, it's just that that would be an invalid plugin YAML < 1310734849 857473 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno if it'd let you load that < 1310734861 371247 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :One field that's meant to be a list also accepts a string as the single element, sigh < 1310734865 810879 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This one, even) < 1310734897 576530 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to have a generic there, it is permitted for you to cast it to List. < 1310734909 262437 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that it's much of an improvement over List. < 1310734919 149148 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Literally going to commit suicide < 1310734958 728905 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think you're allowed to cast to List too if you like. < 1310734975 905795 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not List, because that'd be a list of Objects only. < 1310735011 4510 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I vaguely recall there was some way of narrowing the types down without a warning, but I may be just misremembering that. < 1310735018 999582 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Make an identity function and try id(tmp) < 1310735023 584879 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably ais could tell you, being a more Java guy. < 1310735051 368599 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Hahaha < 1310735121 224087 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I bet there's an IntelliJ SuppressWarnings annotation I can use :-D < 1310735164 773154 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, I recall the reason for the "unchecked cast" warning more properly now. < 1310735169 601870 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have just finished playing a game of pokemon card. This is probably the first time I have done, I have evolved for the sole purpose of increasing my own retreat cost! (And I did win. Both players 1 side card remain, opponent 0 cards in draw pile, me 7 cards in draw pile) < 1310735184 568775 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You do? < 1310735243 704666 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: See, in "List tmp = (List)obj", the run-time checking is able to actually check the cast, and throw a ClassCastException if it fails. But in "List tmp = (List)obj", the run-time type of "obj" is "List", and the cast would succeed with no exceptions even if it were in fact List instead. So that's why it's "unchecked". < 1310735273 628949 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then you'd get a ClassCastException from Cock to String on some later tmp.get(42) where you'd least expect it. < 1310735278 759704 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is why languages shouldn't include cocks < 1310735282 671022 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Hey, wait, I could do case analysis < 1310735286 581446 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the list is empty, just construct a new empty one < 1310735294 348422 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise, instanceof the first element... < 1310735299 231766 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, it could be List < 1310735300 106741 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :SIGH < 1310735308 859496 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java: The worst? < 1310735335 722137 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could iterate the list, instanceof-test all the elements against String, and build your own List. < 1310735352 931919 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could even make a helper static List stringifyMyRide(List lst) method. < 1310735365 665000 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a more Javacally way to say assert(false);? < 1310735369 31740 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : if (aliasesObject instanceof String) { < 1310735369 206852 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : aliases = new ArrayList(); < 1310735369 381315 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : aliases.add((String) aliasesObject); < 1310735369 381501 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : } else if (aliasesObject instanceof List) { < 1310735369 381608 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : aliases = (List) aliasesObject; < 1310735370 90613 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : } else { < 1310735371 951842 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : assert(false); // meh < 1310735374 250790 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : } < 1310735386 346988 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some sort of a RuntimeException, maybe. < 1310735390 663475 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :about CakeProphet's silly stuff about computational equivalence, we just had an international, rather well-known conference where one of the speakers whined about the exact same thing for half an hour < 1310735458 260839 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1310735462 954413 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, javax.xml.bind.TypeConstraintException has a description that sort-of matches your case. :p < 1310735465 51542 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :did he storm off afterwards too < 1310735472 688807 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: hey wait you told us about hat at the time :)))))))) < 1310735494 282818 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : } else { < 1310735494 637064 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : throw RuntimeException("fuck this"); < 1310735494 810966 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : } < 1310735494 986202 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1310735504 646062 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes < 1310735508 606417 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did tolded us. < 1310735509 993318 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/new/ < 1310735542 389668 :Guest64652!Gregor@codu.org NICK :Gregor < 1310735571 927672 :Gregor!Gregor@codu.org NICK :Guest36411 < 1310735712 768380 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You could put the assert in front of that :-P < 1310735716 313642 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I invented a notation of pokemon card deck list using ASCII. < 1310735732 943003 :Guest36411!Gregor@codu.org NICK :Gregor < 1310735747 593689 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Eh? < 1310735763 986088 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did too: times < 1310735782 824608 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: If you can manage somehow to get a Class> object c (though I have no idea how, since only List.class is a valid class literal...), you can "List l = c.cast(obj)" without any warnings about uncheckedity. But I suppose that may be impossible too. < 1310735787 698574 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Before the throw < 1310735938 956315 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It took me quite a while to puzzle out how " times " is putting the assert before a throw. < 1310736003 679056 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 4#92L17+2L17,L26+2L38 3#96L12+2L36 #124L23 #150L30 #21L13 #35L15+D33 #108L26 #249L55 22{@} {dc rc} ENERGYREMOVAL ENERGYRETRIEVAL ENERGYSEARCH 2POTION GAMBLER ITEMFINDER CHALLENGE GUSTOFWIND FULLHEAL SWITCH 2POKEMONTRADER BILL MASTERBALL < 1310736025 555061 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it good format OK? < 1310736403 448075 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course there is the more common long form, but I prefer short form deck listing. < 1310737201 541185 :Tritonio!TrT@Phedra.cti.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1310737646 222451 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1310738097 80243 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229162048.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, what are you doing < 1310738106 273603 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229162048.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1310738120 618988 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater_: I am reading your message about what am I doing. < 1310738151 539496 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229162048.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would like to see the syntax tree of that sentence. < 1310738243 41903 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :[I] am [reading [your [[message] about [what am I doing]]]] (maybe I did this wrong I don't know for sure) < 1310738293 16018 :Tritonio!TrT@Phedra.cti.gr QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1310738306 550945 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also do other things too. < 1310738341 638430 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as, pokemon card, and writing the document of FurryScript, and writing the D&D character sheets both mine and my brother. < 1310738367 525227 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you okay? i just dropped you people on the floor by accident < 1310738381 542137 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah just kidding, i know you're not real < 1310738481 190864 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it is OK, in case my bed broke, I should sleep on the floor instead. < 1310738939 88048 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1310739166 755425 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please tell me if this document is understandable to you: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/FurryScript < 1310739245 249292 :hagb4rd!~hagb4rd@koln-4d0b6997.pool.mediaWays.net QUIT :Quit: hagb4rd < 1310739650 215381 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229162048.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ǐ̷̭͙̭ͪ͒̅ͥṡ̶͔̼̒́ ̸͓͕̭̲̬̺ͩ͐ͮ̽͛ͪ́͡y̶͈̹̺̙̘̓ͦͥ͗̾̐̒ọ̤ͮu̪̭̦̺̼̪ͨ̌ͫ̎ͪ͗̎̋͛͞r̢͕̞̦̣̩ͤ̅ͩ̐͑̕ ̖̲̺̘͔͕̞̰̤ͯ̉m̝̗͓̺̳͙̬̜̮͗̔͋ͬ͆͂́ͦ̚ỏ̶͉͉̲̙̭͓̼̌̀n̼̮̱̳̼̮̣̹̈́ͩͩ̊͘͝i̗͂ͫ͗̿ͯ̚ţ̢̗͎̃ͭͣ͆̋̂͑͘ọ̸̐̓̑̌̇͗̎̒͟r̥͙͌͋͢͞ ̮̤͈͚̯ͬ̐̋ͫ͗͟͞b̴̨͈̭̄ͧr̸͎̃͌͑o̩̘̝̜̍ͪ̓͑͘͡ͅk̟̻̥ͧ̑ͥ͡e̶̪ͨ̏ͥ͟ < 1310739655 821127 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229162048.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :̩͎͇͈̹n̡̬̬ͣ̋̈̒̐͑̃͛́ͅ?̴͙͈͈ͥ̌ < 1310739682 752275 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229162048.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklof̥̟̫̺̤ͮ̀̃͒̎ͪ̌ͩo̡̪͈̫ͮ́ͪ̋ͭk̛̻ͨͦ̉̉̕ͅ ̣̫̗̘͕̾ͧͅḓ̴̘͉̪̭̤̔ͤ͛̿ͤ̚͝i̗̜̯̤͇͐ͦ̋̌ͮ͒̈́̐̕d̋ͦ͏̞̲̦͖͇̪̤ͅ ̴͙̻̪̫̻̒ͥͬ͞͡y̝̪͙̰̖̼͖ͬͬ̍͂͐͊̎̚ͅǒ̘͍͔̫̤̻̠͗ͫ͘u̸͂̓͗ͫ͏̭̠͉̣̜̘̖̻ ̸̛̫͖̰̲͙̻͋̍̉̈d̪̤͎̗̟̪̩̦̗͗ͬͧͧͮ͆ͫ̑r̭̱̳̰̟̰ͭ͑ͥͤ͊o̶͇̪̖̒̑ͣͫͅp̺̩͛ ͕̦͈̲͎͖̐͛ͬ̈ͯy̺̹̫ͧ̈́̈́͌̍͝͝o̹͐͌͋͋̑͗͘ < 1310739683 929620 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229162048.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :̜ų̣̙̙̗̮̝̌̇ř̗̙̩͗̈ ̨̝̤̩̬̺̖̑ͩ̃̾̅̃̓̓͘͝l̴̔̒̃͋͂͆҉̧̬̗͇̫̬͇̦̱ȁ̴̽͜҉̖̙̫̠̙͔p̬͈̮̘͉̒ͯ̉̆̊͌ͧ͐ͅͅtop < 1310739695 284830 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are you trying to type now? < 1310739705 317539 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like mixed up. < 1310739762 571617 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229162048.adsl.alicedsl.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it mus͔͓͕̄͊͋͘͞t̸̯̟̮͋̆̍͗̑ͫ̚͘ ̳̬̫̆ͣ̓̈́̂̀̚͞b̤͍̱̮̮͇̫́͒ͯ̽̀̓͆͑ę̹̗̉̅ͫ͋ͬ͌ͤ̂͟ ̆ͤͯ͏̘̯͠yͣ̓̊̊̾҉̤̰̦͕̯õ͌͆ͬ̓̽̂̚҉͓̟̱̬̰̻̯u̘̱̺̤̲͑r monitor < 1310739843 807886 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1310739864 800502 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I can read it a bit. But, no it is not my monitor is broken. The monitor is working correctly. It is the speaker which is broke. But that doesn't cause the mixed up text on screen. < 1310739878 83282 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1310740044 960901 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello < 1310740046 13943 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: 5 < 1310740051 765850 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yw < 1310740235 512303 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1310740347 760101 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@17.45.135.66 JOIN :#esoteric < 1310740348 189773 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@17.45.135.66 QUIT :Changing host < 1310740348 363608 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1310740545 194523 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello < 1310741906 707260 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1310743684 330190 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1310743733 684152 :foocraft!~ewanas@89.211.190.38 JOIN :#esoteric < 1310744963 593039 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1310745751 973556 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still think Numberwang is too useable < 1310746309 117804 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can I make it less useable? < 1310746321 768714 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :make it sub-tc < 1310746330 584181 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :While still a) Turing complete and b) deterministic < 1310746381 697953 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :determinism is boring < 1310746417 183165 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you seen the Numberwang spec? < 1310746425 351175 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so < 1310746430 567524 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what the program 3! would do < 1310746459 308457 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of esolangs, what is it with people and replacing the list of ideas with magic the gathering card deck of brainfuck < 1310746515 61315 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has that happened a lot? < 1310746520 857320 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :twice < 1310746522 803483 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm gone now < 1310746530 214805 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-46.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1310746534 777080 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye < 1310746562 128766 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, that must seem pretty non-sequitur for you, derrik < 1310746602 473917 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-46.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1310746628 497531 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It almost made sense in context, though < 1310746653 148341 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-46.elisa.ee PRIVMSG #esoteric :possible < 1310746666 477479 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you think is the best way to make a language less usable while keeping it a) Turing Complete and b) Deterministic? < 1310746702 497660 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not so sure that numberwang is tc myself < 1310746707 961110 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that's more oerjan's forte >:D < 1310746709 828671 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oerjan proved it < 1310746727 303626 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm it's close to the b-machine thing < 1310746730 293915 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: ah, okay < 1310746739 458753 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: i'd say it's as confusing as you're going to get < 1310746753 146445 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it was so easy to prove Turing Complete! < 1310746757 721576 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's usable! < 1310746758 845369 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: as of right now you can ignore command three, though < 1310746767 264676 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :integrate some vital operation into it < 1310746775 888747 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this maintains tcness only by power of hope) < 1310746776 644884 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good idea < 1310746791 849636 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll also add IO in the same move! < 1310746819 704267 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: just make 3 print "That's Numberwang!", and 0 print... something else < 1310746828 770603 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's all anyone could possibly need < 1310746837 193978 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 is flip and move left < 1310746851 951787 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, the point is that you have two instructions that print different things < 1310746857 974331 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should be enough, if the instructions are vital enough < 1310746876 358329 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, I think that Unary program shows us that that isn't even necessary < 1310746905 363099 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :unary looks like it has normal output < 1310746925 571399 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just saying, you can do output by just making two of your commands print two different things as a side-effect < 1310746927 455149 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :input is for the weak < 1310746927 993062 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it shows meaning can be demonstrated with only one character < 1310746939 104565 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :um well yes but if your program doesn't halt that doesn't work < 1310746944 794324 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the value is encoded into the length < 1310746955 755573 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, yeah < 1310747124 713025 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Changed spec < 1310747147 156741 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :still doesn't require using three for turing-completeness :P < 1310747160 82869 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it does for any output. < 1310747166 871379 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, but who needs that? < 1310747180 543478 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :People making Hello World programs? < 1310747294 952318 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i doubt that's possible, considering the program that three starts running < 1310747301 923273 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. I rather suspect it'll output other values beyond your control < 1310747319 261998 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the right setup, it should be theoretically possible < 1310747381 389316 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a proposition stated without proof :P < 1310747389 109031 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could very well be completely impossible to output hello world < 1310747391 294084 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make that hypothetically < 1310747460 62521 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just considerably easier to get the entire population of the UK to agree on football teams < 1310747890 803940 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1310748425 278354 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to play pokemon card, please. < 1310748440 272513 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to play chess < 1310748452 676343 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Normal (FIDE) chess or some variant? < 1310748460 143324 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FIDE < 1310748467 22992 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe Threechess < 1310748683 454634 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now invent pokemon card chess < 1310748705 474322 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I have no pokemon cards < 1310748842 57793 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use computer to make up cards < 1310748857 838262 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm going out for dinner in 6.5 minutes < 1310748892 598280 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_14/pokemon_card_01.png Pokemon Card GB2 < 1310748937 3220 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know how to do this one? < 1310748945 261734 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, and I have to go now < 1310748948 360220 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goodbye < 1310749111 354201 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.106.27.227 JOIN :#esoteric < 1310749211 866487 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1310749888 672140 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1310751083 693079 :DocHerrings!~DocHerrin@pool-71-246-79-149.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1310751215 834417 :DocHerrings!~DocHerrin@pool-71-246-79-149.bltmmd.east.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boredom is a terrible thing - I am writing a series of Markov productions that calculate Keymaker's Clue language. < 1310751767 719632 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1310752338 712599 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1310752420 715946 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, PSOX was useful for something! < 1310752432 787914 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If arguing with CakeProphet is considered useful) < 1310752546 829691 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am very much doubtful that the "conversation" today was anything that'd count as "useful". < 1310752663 811632 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2208 < 1310752780 45857 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1310752830 119619 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-239-219.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's... Perverse. < 1310752839 87571 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-239-219.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Gtk Hello World in Qt C++". < 1310752850 836033 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm? < 1310752860 441306 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, my site is not up-to-date wrt PSOX < 1310752877 490483 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The wiki's link to the assembla stuff is < 1310752911 376234 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-239-219.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Well, Qt is both a UI toolkit and a library providing a fairly simple extension to C++'s standard semantics and some replacement standard library functions. < 1310753009 909231 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229162048.adsl.alicedsl.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1310753099 576195 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-239-219.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways. Someone bound GObject into the Qt C++ type system. < 1310753282 386546 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, Phantom_Hoover, John/[SPOILER] panels are up < 1310753787 938617 :cheater_!~ubuntu@g229066135.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1310753946 899163 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn37-169.vpn.utu.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1310754051 986203 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-429.yok.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1310754258 633827 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG an [S]. < 1310754511 394664 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1310754512 265536 :derrik!~xix@gprs-inet-65-46.elisa.ee QUIT :Quit: nights < 1310755171 353299 :DocHerrings!~DocHerrin@pool-71-246-79-149.bltmmd.east.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, Markov production rule finished (so now Clue has a Thue interpreter). < 1310755182 131936 :DocHerrings!~DocHerrin@pool-71-246-79-149.bltmmd.east.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose I'll add that. < 1310755334 188713 :DocHerrings!~DocHerrin@pool-71-246-79-149.bltmmd.east.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe later. Markov to Thue conversion is messy. < 1310756082 811803 :MigoMipo!~John@2.71.241.100 JOIN :#esoteric < 1310756268 692704 :foocraft!~ewanas@89.211.190.38 QUIT :Quit: So long, and thanks for all the fish! < 1310756299 737583 :foocraft!~ewanas@89.211.190.38 JOIN :#esoteric < 1310756904 913163 :DocHerrings!~DocHerrin@pool-71-246-79-149.bltmmd.east.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330] < 1310757298 1588 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1310757548 251033 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Wow. Headphones in my ownership tend to die within days, apparently < 1310757575 859477 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's because of the radiation from the brain implantat the aliens put in you. hth. < 1310757641 746389 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*implant < 1310757660 324999 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now i too can learn to hate the new google top bar < 1310757666 365148 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-219-239-219.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1310757670 214966 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what way in particular is it irritating you? < 1310757675 842413 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, which Clue was DocHerrings talking about? < 1310757681 223734 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does not disappear when i scroll < 1310757684 554767 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it'd be extra fun if it wasn't either of the ones I know of) < 1310757684 729028 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1310757689 769768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: gah, I hate bars that do that < 1310757694 804865 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I hardly ever use Google, so I didn't notice) < 1310757711 334634 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell elliott SUNDAY IS GREGOR'S BIRTHDAY TAKE NOTE. ALSO PRESENTS. < 1310757711 973954 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1310757852 856699 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : I thought I was building off of a sort of joke I would make, not spoiling one of the sort someone else would make < 1310757861 903823 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :LEAVE THE BAD JOKES TO THE PROFESSIONALS < 1310758223 677384 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Any ASCII string can be converted into a base-128 number < 1310758226 853438 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1310758252 266552 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> readInt 128 ord "abcd" < 1310758253 654018 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Bool.Bool' < 1310758253 833181 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : against inferred type ... < 1310758259 313763 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mph < 1310758265 510780 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t readInt < 1310758266 892995 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. (Num a) => a -> (Char -> Bool) -> (Char -> Int) -> String -> [(a, String)] < 1310758296 159792 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> readInt 128 (<'\128') ord "abcd" < 1310758297 503671 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [(205042148,"")] < 1310758336 541954 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> showIntAtBase 128 chr 205042148 "" < 1310758338 202715 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "abcd" < 1310758359 37403 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it won't handle leading NULs < 1310758411 210567 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't you delete all DELs? < 1310758425 370074 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all NULs, for that matter? < 1310758434 430800 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :v < 1310758435 734696 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : also, which Clue was DocHerrings talking about? < 1310758438 982874 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the purpose of those characters is that you can leave chunks of NULs that don't mean anything on your tape in case you need to correct things < 1310758439 597577 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keymaker's. < 1310758446 794140 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm if you delete DELs, shouldn't you also delete the following character? < 1310758457 448639 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then add extra things in the NUL space if you need to add < 1310758466 592934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to delete, just punch out every hole on the tape for that character and you get DEL < 1310758476 567463 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1310758478 118988 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think DEL originally was a placeholder for things that had already been deleted < 1310758480 920999 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a delete character < 1310758486 95231 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm clever < 1310758497 317162 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowadays, we don't use paper tapes, so the whole trick is sort-of moot < 1310758550 909766 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I should tell C-INTERCAL to ignore NUL and DEL < 1310758555 7192 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linky? < 1310758559 404429 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well there are still write-once media < 1310758573 655394 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :working well with write-once media is exactly the sort of feature that works well with it < 1310758582 389652 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, we're talking about ASCII? < 1310758600 417947 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't know if they support changing single bytes after the fact < 1310758601 709239 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: modern write-once media, like CD-Rs, unfortunately don't let you overprint 0s with 1s like tape did < 1310758609 604631 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1310758631 593981 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, because CD-Rs need a separate encoding layer because they can't represent two 1s in a row < 1310758649 752146 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's some sort of transformation done on bytes in order to change them to longer codewords with no consecutive 1s < 1310758672 842178 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how many 0s they can have in a row; presumably there's some limit to avoid the read head losing count, as it needs to know where it is on the CD somehow < 1310758683 964762 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and mechanical imperfections prevents you just using the timing, if the distance is too long < 1310758704 980050 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could said limit be larger than number of physical bits on the disc/ < 1310758711 24558 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory, yes < 1310758720 722831 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice it's very unlikely < 1310758721 321910 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm with such a scheme an ascii 0 would be a placeholder that could be replaced with an arbitrary digit < 1310758747 487494 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :statical tape typing! < 1310758781 303894 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that reminds me, I've written an informal Anarchy spec < 1310758782 371907 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i guess there are non-digits possible as well < 1310758800 692544 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :still unfinished, still not mentioning a lot of things that would have to be mentioned in order to get an actual language < 1310758807 370423 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but enough there for people to get what's going on < 1310758822 752071 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully it won't turn into a second Feather; at least, there are no obvious inconsistencies or difficulties in the spec < 1310758851 516855 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :interestingly the Wang B-machine which numberwang alludes to allowed only setting bits, not clearing. (although numberwang doesn't follow that, using flipping) < 1310758864 24253 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is still possible such media such as print. And if it is scanned into the computer, or using a camera. < 1310758920 380766 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, like those optical scan forms used for multiple-choice tests? < 1310758934 837414 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1310758949 796325 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : there's some sort of transformation done on bytes in order to change them to longer codewords with no consecutive 1s <-- well the "obvious" way is to use fibonacci base < 1310758965 9239 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm, I wonder if that is it? < 1310758981 164102 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :here we go: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=MDEebq26 < 1310759020 235078 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact something I designed which is similar, is FORMCARD, which also uses delete characters similar to ASCII using them in that way, although FORMCARD is based on Hollerith instead of ASCII (although it can also use POSTNET for purely numeric data). < 1310759037 959304 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well fibonacci base doesn't support limiting the number of 0's, which i vaguely recall seeing before < 1310759101 447268 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea if the limit is a small integer or of the order of hundreds < 1310759117 278149 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice, they probably just make sure each word has at least one bit set < 1310759124 424393 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least two or three, if more are needed < 1310759172 799933 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :istr it was pretty small, so there was a fixed length encoding of some length of bits < 1310759343 104242 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems about right < 1310759500 295086 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The pits and lands themselves do not directly represent the zeros and ones of binary data. Instead, non-return-to-zero, inverted encoding is used: a change from pit to land or land to pit indicates a one, while no change indicates a series of zeros. There must be at least two and no more than ten zeros between each one, which is defined by the length of the pit." < 1310759555 946101 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"no more than ten", that's god to know < 1310759595 990208 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Under EFM rules, the data to be stored is first broken into 8-bit blocks (bytes). Each 8-bit block is translated into a corresponding 14-bit codeword using a lookup table. < 1310759608 988614 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 14-bit words are chosen such that binary ones are always separated by a minimum of two and a maximum of ten binary zeroes." < 1310759637 51354 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, so I expect some byte transformations are possible on CDs < 1310759643 19145 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you can burn a land into a pit < 1310759644 983924 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not very many < 1310759751 589112 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"EFM requires three merging bits between adjacent 14-bit codewords to ensure that consecutive codewords can be cascaded without violating the specified minimum and maximum runlength constraint. The 3 merging bits are also used to shape the spectrum of the encoded sequence. Thus, in the final analysis, 17 bits of disc space are needed to encode 8 bits of data. < 1310759769 831647 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1310759773 76603 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-to-fourteen_modulation) < 1310759778 685985 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1310759781 896452 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1310759802 330139 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, CDs read fast enough that they need to have a consistent spectrum? < 1310759820 384934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was surprised at that, but suppose it was inevitable < 1310759824 944640 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> readInt 128 (<'\128') ord "abcd" -- repeat what i tested above based on a comment by Taneb < 1310759826 181686 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [(205042148,"")] < 1310759831 418977 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as if there's a simple trick to read faster, people are going to use it < 1310759857 103086 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And modern CD drives are at the physical limits on read speed. < 1310759863 98034 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(any faster and the disc would shatter) < 1310759877 83124 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They've got data transfer at 26 Terabits a second in some lab somewhere < 1310759881 557335 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps they don't need to make the spectrum that consistent after all, then < 1310759882 943832 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not CDs, but it works < 1310759896 651060 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the technology is comparatively simple < 1310759906 554748 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Well, it's the physical limits of what can be done *with the CD spec*. < 1310759913 815214 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hear CERN transfers some huge data amounts < 1310759915 547442 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously you can get higher rates with differing media. < 1310760075 53803 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1310760100 907533 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@gw1.mcgraw-hill.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1310760101 175123 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@gw1.mcgraw-hill.com QUIT :Changing host < 1310760101 349022 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1310760214 920447 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@17.45.135.66 JOIN :#esoteric < 1310760215 254250 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@17.45.135.66 QUIT :Changing host < 1310760215 428777 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1310760377 903010 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1310760569 917599 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, I just got confused when Wikipedia didn't have an article on the Churing-Turch Thesis < 1310760617 31901 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shocking! < 1310760782 65316 :pumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1310760818 451126 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@17.45.135.66 JOIN :#esoteric < 1310760818 851309 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@17.45.135.66 QUIT :Changing host < 1310760819 25026 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod JOIN :#esoteric < 1310760856 516355 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats copumpkin -----### < 1310760879 320722 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did he abbreviate something to ABCDEF? < 1310760973 387789 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1310760975 408595 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, he is quit-join spamming with a bad connection _and_ a broken cloak setup simultaneously < 1310760982 752006 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry :P < 1310760995 421235 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've done it three times in the past 20 minutes haven't I? < 1310760997 208322 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't that bad < 1310761009 759512 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it looks worse when no one else is talking < 1310761027 109576 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got a tetanus jab last year, later that month I got over 1000 friends on Facebook < 1310761031 631136 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Connection? < 1310761064 356022 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: probably coincidence < 1310761080 439821 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, correlation implies causation, obviously < 1310761100 8569 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: are correlation and causation correlated? < 1310761101 798453 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes? < 1310761106 177111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then correlation /causes/ causation! < 1310761111 539823 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1310761114 408312 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's connected to the time I watched the director's commentary for Finding Nemo < 1310761128 575678 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 TOPIC #esoteric :correlation causes causation | Esoteric programming languages | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1310761140 405701 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone looked at Anarchy yet, btw? < 1310761155 529891 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anarchy? < 1310761171 20343 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean, this channel? < 1310761194 373859 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is channel is anarchy? shocking! someone should fire the ops < 1310761198 101028 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-is < 1310761238 654073 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: no, my language < 1310761243 317524 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/MDEebq26 < 1310761246 159748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, one of mine < 1310761262 91664 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's unusual for esolang design, as I invented it not because I thought it would be a fun basis for a language < 1310761266 313974 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but because I needed it to write prorgams in < 1310761273 915549 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, it looks like a pain to implement < 1310761279 110110 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not massively difficult, but timeconsuming < 1310761288 212053 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I need to get a constraint solver from somewhere < 1310761292 493458 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's actually quite close to the actual meaning of esoteric? < 1310761296 885409 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i looked far enough to think you're going to have some trouble with the type inference there < 1310761334 172794 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: quite probably < 1310761338 237787 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean if that was not unsolvable it would probably be supported by ML already... < 1310761369 671463 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you ocaml _does_ have something similar doesn't it < 1310761377 429963 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a good language for someone with no knowledge of programming? < 1310761385 619799 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be surprised if it were unsolvable < 1310761407 54684 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Prolog, because if you do have knowledge of programming, your mind will explode trying to learn it < 1310761412 959655 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i did not think about it very deeply (my eyes started to glaze over) < 1310761427 309830 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so learn it first, then you don't have to have an exploded mind trying to learn it later < 1310761429 54827 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell, for the same reason :P < 1310761432 34162 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right < 1310761453 107204 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, do you have to learn them simultaneously, then? < 1310761474 273569 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: um you don't have no knowledge of programming do you? < 1310761493 868288 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you could do Mercury for that < 1310761494 785553 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm trying to get a friend into computer sciency topics < 1310761507 394617 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: someone mixed Haskell and Prolog? < 1310761519 938340 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, why did you think Anarchy's type system is uncomputable? < 1310761538 584629 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well not directly mixing but ideas from both prolog and ML/haskell sides < 1310761541 970714 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just seems like sugar around an existing type system < 1310761562 50665 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a statically typed, pure, logic language < 1310761573 874194 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like duck typing < 1310761583 228593 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It helps prevent forest fires < 1310761621 439811 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well it was that thing about having constructors not associated with a single datatype. although i guess that ocaml thing _does_ that. < 1310761635 482753 :MigoMipo!~John@2.71.241.100 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1310761647 143031 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god, that was pretty much the stupidest thing I have ever said online < 1310761668 708735 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might help if you think of the type constructors being different type constructors on call and return < 1310761673 266234 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how I'll probably implement it < 1310761683 136923 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: in that case, you haven't been nearly as stupid online as most people < 1310761687 50089 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also, afaik most things grafted onto hindley-milner tend to make type inference undecidable < 1310761707 867453 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I just do type inference via constraint solving < 1310761715 769590 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume hindley-milner works like that too as it's the only sensible way < 1310761746 32396 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you might have trouble with having "principal types" (i.e. a unique inferred type for your terms which works in all contexts) < 1310761782 543214 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh, I was just going to duplicate every use of a function < 1310761786 306616 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, hindley-milner is mostly unification on the type level < 1310761801 404821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++-style template specialisation < 1310761819 884973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, I might have to inline every use of a function other than recursion, but even so, I think it still ends up decidable < 1310761822 717620 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hm iirc there is a sense in which hindley-milner is equivalent to doing that < 1310761825 99768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anarchic? I think so < 1310761849 125833 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well good luck anyway < 1310761889 856742 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just annoyed at having had to do the relevant desugaring by hand at my day job < 1310761901 466673 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or else bodge it by using types more general than are actually needed < 1310761976 542939 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: btw iirc there is also a (probably dead) logic language based on haskell < 1310761983 76588 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that was the one named curry < 1310761989 358002 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, perhaps < 1310762013 386906 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anarchy's constraint solving is uncomputable because you can express Diophantine equations in it < 1310762017 241721 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry_(programming_language) < 1310762021 606871 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but interps are allowed to go into an infinite loop if you do that < 1310762204 617918 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the curry mailing list doesn't seem to be entirely dead < 1310762265 649332 :rodgort!~rodgort@li125-242.members.linode.com QUIT :Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs) < 1310762491 856122 :rodgort!~rodgort@li125-242.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1310763042 955198 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Teaching someone Lambda calculus < 1310763099 615959 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone who has very little programming background < 1310763696 24953 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: the same guy? in that case what about scheme, it may the simplest "real" language to do LC faithfully... < 1310763706 33857 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :just don't mention call/cc :P < 1310763724 474831 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The same person. < 1310763730 728564 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just doing it theoretically < 1310763781 454118 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*may be < 1310763798 986226 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't actually realise there was a typo... < 1310763819 935661 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :INSUFFICIENT OC(P)D DETECTED < 1310763849 262250 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :geek license suspended pending review < 1310763882 569997 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not a very good teacher... < 1310763892 281418 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just said "So, when f is inputted, m replaces all the fs with fs and takes out the f in the input" < 1310763922 648007 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard at work replacing fs by fs < 1310763976 406394 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think of lambda calculus as the simplest possible mathematical model of naming things < 1310764032 316345 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : just don't mention call/cc :P < 1310764045 831620 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Come on, call/cc is pretty simple once you get your head around it. < 1310764072 12257 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :always mention call/cc < 1310764082 956718 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like monads, really. < 1310764097 307955 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :like algebraic topology < 1310764134 28660 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and category theory < 1310764167 271050 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms < 1310764219 779754 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :xenolinguistic polysyllablic neomorphemes? < 1310764235 854269 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*polysyllabic < 1310764264 804594 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course. < 1310764283 343028 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for the neo- part < 1310764292 958501 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1310764335 15718 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't make up any of those words < 1310764385 610997 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms are kind of only used as a joke, AFAIK. < 1310764386 886667 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last one _is_ used as a joke on that though < 1310764404 632120 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but it _does_ have a real meaning, if obscure < 1310764417 684028 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i can recall what it is < 1310764478 642655 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect I'd be a better computer science teacher if I had actually ever taken a computer science class < 1310764623 591288 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But did Alan Turing ever take a computer science class? < 1310764628 543240 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1310764635 99348 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did Alonzo Church ever take a computer science class? < 1310764652 235115 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :did newton ever take a physics class < 1310764711 369062 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No! Isaac Newton (who was kind of a dick) learnt about physics on the internet! < 1310764714 79270 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did Thog ever take a fire-building class? < 1310764717 577662 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :they almost certainly did take math classes though < 1310764728 356686 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :except thog < 1310764743 489578 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh, I've got a GCSE in stats. < 1310764746 579255 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That should be enough < 1310764776 46661 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1310764791 503639 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, as an amateur very-occasional programmer i didn't learn most computer science i know from classes either < 1310764833 734130 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never been near a computer science class, which is why nobody listens to me. < 1310764848 233017 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Meh, I've got a GCSE in stats. < 1310764849 188594 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO < 1310764880 520877 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Well, *programming* is a practical skill best learned by just doing it, and *computer science* is a particular form of mathematics. < 1310764880 998742 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :STATS < 1310764883 244848 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have approximately 2.16 A levels in Maths < 1310764885 9528 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IS AN ABOMINATION < 1310764889 417590 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :STATS < 1310764892 472144 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, elaborate. < 1310764892 954349 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :IS AN EXTRA GCSE < 1310764893 421041 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some proportion of that is stats < 1310764915 449605 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: And seeing as you have a Ph.D. in math, well, it makes sense you'd find CS easy... < 1310764919 526933 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find out if I've got a maths GCSE in August < 1310764929 136602 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: the way it worked when I did maths A level (and still works similarly nowadays, although some of the details have changed) is that you do "modules" < 1310764936 106184 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is when we find out Phantom_Hoover has too passionate enemies in life: brainfuck derivatives and statistics < 1310764945 878770 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and six modules, subject to some constraints, gives you an A level; your grade is the average grade of the modules < 1310764956 933513 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*two < 1310764961 381368 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :another (distinct) six gives you a second A level < 1310764964 772027 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although possibly too, too < 1310764977 457228 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :time for a brainfuck derivative based on statistics, or perhaps statistics about brainfuck and derivatives thereof < 1310764981 359110 :monqy!~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a good time < 1310764982 627487 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the actual names vary based on which modules; I did a balance mix and ended up with simply Maths and Further Maths < 1310764986 281641 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stochastic Brainfuck, eh? < 1310764995 435440 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, by the time I'm 23, I could have a Masters in Maths! < 1310764995 989792 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and did thirteen modules, so I still have one left over (the one with the lowest mark that wasn't compulsory) < 1310765012 584316 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I'm not sure if I hate stats itself or not. < 1310765019 40402 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably this would mean that if I did another five, I could get Even Further Maths < 1310765022 343535 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe there's a time limit on the things < 1310765025 847926 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the way it's taught is *unquestionably* abysmal. < 1310765027 886954 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :To far you've past it maths? < 1310765063 884339 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Math generally is taught poorly. < 1310765070 83166 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so *utterly* slowly, too. < 1310765077 930585 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait is that what gcse means, i thought Taneb was older than that :P < 1310765079 908631 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was quite lucky, they sat me in a corner and gave me a bunch of textbooks < 1310765083 960883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and told me to go learn maths < 1310765084 882252 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm 16 < 1310765087 207381 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have... 1.07 A levels. < 1310765103 900393 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to UCAS, at least. < 1310765107 39294 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: is that to do with the fractional adjustment between English and Scottish tariffs, or something else? < 1310765107 582084 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have 0 A-Levels, and 1 GCSE < 1310765111 663355 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yeah. < 1310765114 505298 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, the UCAS reference cleared it up < 1310765115 118660 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find out in August if that goes up to I think the equivalent of 12 < 1310765122 807547 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree with them that the Scottish qualifications are worth more < 1310765129 700606 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It's one of the testing bits towards the end of secondary education in England, I think Scotland, and no idea about Northern Ireland or Wales. < 1310765134 905527 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Universities generally admit based on English scales < 1310765141 5842 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wales is the same as england < 1310765159 86458 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the general rule is that England and Wales are the same, and Scotland and Northern Ireland are different from those and from each other < 1310765163 158488 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, although I only have 0.75 A*As on A levels with additional AS (9 units). < 1310765168 363222 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever that is. < 1310765176 264971 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yeah, but I prefer to make no assumptions about the UK. < 1310765177 166164 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: an AS is the first half of an A level < 1310765187 103954 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do that first, then you do an A2 that upgrades the AS to a full A level < 1310765189 50992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by averaging marks < 1310765212 478746 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : pikhq: the general rule is that England and Wales are the same, and Scotland and Northern Ireland are different from those and from each other < 1310765218 799679 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can stop after the first half if you like; for instance, I have an AS in Electronics (as well as a GCSE in Systems and Control, which is a euphemism for electronics, and a MEng in Electronic Engineering) < 1310765219 191565 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NI uses the same names, though. < 1310765225 93946 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it might well be the same. < 1310765228 855089 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1310765233 644026 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the easy solution for Americans who actually know that England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland have different systems for things. < 1310765245 198170 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or, indeed, that they are *actually different*) < 1310765252 323698 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :very few things are different between England and Wales in terms of administration < 1310765262 517815 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're starting to diverge a bit more now Wales has its own government, but that's pretty recent < 1310765263 748292 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the lack of a separate table in the tariffs suggests that they do use the English system. < 1310765268 476037 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's because England actually conquered Wales pretty early on < 1310765272 331864 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and Wales speaks a mix of English and Welsh) < 1310765273 976079 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: yep < 1310765281 998415 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather than had a weird political union < 1310765291 783637 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Caused by ending up with the same guy in charge < 1310765294 280640 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Scotland was never successfuly conquered by the English; rather, intermarrying lead to England and Scotland having the same king at the same time < 1310765294 630353 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Still. England and Wales are *likely* to not diverge, but they do on some things. < 1310765298 594556 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, they conquered Ireland as well, though. < 1310765322 183990 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which lead to a mess, as the way inheritance works, you can't diverge from thatp oint < 1310765323 672600 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*point < 1310765331 814666 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: And then had a series of conflicts about it, bringing a big mess. < 1310765338 2025 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : which lead to a mess, as the way inheritance works, you can't diverge from thatp oint < 1310765345 919869 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's... a bit more complex than that. < 1310765346 689155 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: If they had differing laws for inheritance. < 1310765351 917392 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I know it is < 1310765358 701607 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it's more complex than I understand < 1310765365 518694 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a short period where England was at war with itself < 1310765368 761633 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There would be even more headaches, though. < 1310765371 422428 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ended up with Christmas parties being banned < 1310765375 3681 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: do you mean the Civil War? < 1310765382 229318 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1310765390 978763 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scotland wasn't at war with itself, though < 1310765391 563780 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was pretty complicated too < 1310765406 402267 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and England wasn't at war with itself, it was basically people loyal to the King versus people loyal to Parliament < 1310765426 251762 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, a bit of England versus a different bit of England < 1310765452 243276 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the end result was a very weird school and political system < 1310765460 489283 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just like any other rebellion, really, except that a) both sides were technically in charge beforehand, and b) both sides were pretty large < 1310765464 175509 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rebellions are normally rather asymmetrical < 1310765483 111508 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Cromwell banned Christmas < 1310765485 431637 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowadays, incidentally, the Queen still has to ask for permission to enter Parliament, as a result of all that < 1310765487 688403 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :parties < 1310765499 172176 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a guy with a sword stands inside the door of Parliament just in case it gets invaded again < 1310765501 48686 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Queen is banned from the House of Commons < 1310765501 935871 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: You already had a weird school and political sstem. < 1310765509 203755 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just got *further* weirdness. < 1310765519 410552 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(rather awesomely, a couple of years ago a protestor broke into Parliament and the guy with a sword actually drew it and pointed it at him) < 1310765525 390223 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as the House of Commons, the whole ceremony with the Black Rod, etc. < 1310765530 417859 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Serjeant at Arms < 1310765542 345867 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's... a bit more complex than that. <-- yeah i recall Hanover split from the UK when victoria became queen because they did _not_ have the same succession rules < 1310765544 614756 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the name of the guy with the sword < 1310765547 705853 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, the House of Commons' < 1310765558 983105 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: yep, compleat with old-fashioned spelling < 1310765559 156907 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, no, I mean more how James ended up being I and VI. < 1310765582 241808 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's because Scotland and England didn't officially become the same country until Anne < 1310765589 894111 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :We use the lowest possible number now < 1310765596 374112 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1310765600 381922 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is it the highest? < 1310765604 567622 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it just follows English numbering < 1310765612 693630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably there are Scots annoyed at that < 1310765629 147318 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, it was a roundabout way of indicating the whole situation that led to unification. < 1310765629 601793 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably also annoyed at the English Parliament becoming the UK Parliament. < 1310765644 514483 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, nah, we got a pretty sweet deal out of that. < 1310765648 150109 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Free tuition, anyone? < 1310765671 38566 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Actually, yeah, that's probably more annoying for people in England. < 1310765677 256405 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I lived TWENTY MILES WEST, I would get free University tuition < 1310765679 703332 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, Scotland got the best end of that deal < 1310765687 925090 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :TWENTY MILES < 1310765690 3480 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, ...what? < 1310765696 380937 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a Northumbrian < 1310765701 441626 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably Taneb lives near the English/Scottish border < 1310765703 664469 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not being able to have any legislative process that applies to them exclusively is probably a bitch. < 1310765709 552277 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but the shortest distance would be normal to the border. < 1310765717 344425 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So NW. < 1310765722 248243 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this also implies that he's a Northener, and thus anyone from London is contractually required to hate him < 1310765729 828106 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: well yeah i hear some scots insist on calling the current queen Elizabeth I ... < 1310765739 563067 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I haven't met any. < 1310765742 58262 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm from Birmingham, which means that nobody has a regional requirement to hate me, but many people have a regional requirement to laugh at me) < 1310765765 467096 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goodnight < 1310765766 390194 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: If only the Commonwealth Realms did that. < 1310765767 571738 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, oh, huh, the border is more vertical on the east than I thought. < 1310765779 419032 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As technically Her Majesty *is* their first Queen by the name of Elizabeth... :P < 1310765841 198248 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: indeed, I was thinking "why west? oh right, the border isn't straight" < 1310765852 780265 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, has Scotland /ever/ been successfully invaded? < 1310765862 130459 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know the Romans tried and failed < 1310765869 302323 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so did the English, multiple times < 1310765897 213045 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I think it was successfully invaded by people from modern-day Ireland once (which is where the name Scotland comes from) < 1310765907 133996 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1310765946 734050 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm a Northumbrian <-- and you say that after i was joking the other they that you were coincidentally Elliott's next door neighboor < 1310765950 244082 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently some parts of it were actually occupied by Rome. < 1310765955 141443 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... For 40 years. < 1310765959 774566 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I don't think they got all that much of it, though. < 1310765993 862530 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: probably not < 1310766002 963148 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine invading Scotland gets really difficult after a while < 1310766008 595361 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :past a certain latitude, even the A-roads are single track < 1310766016 670638 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Up there with invading Russia, it seems. < 1310766023 943720 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-84-13-89-246.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1310766047 536452 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Best way to do it is just to luck out in having the same monarch as Scotland. < 1310766128 662900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one amusing thing to do is to look at a map of Scotland colored by which way people vote < 1310766152 855782 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because basically the whole country votes for Labour, sometimes the Liberal Democrats (although probably not next time round...), or the SNP < 1310766162 857640 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's one constituency which is staunchly Conservative, looking out of place < 1310766214 780423 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a lowland place full of richish farmers, whereas most of Scotland is hilly or mountainous < 1310766228 364674 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*day < 1310766241 510640 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, *neighbor < 1310766246 92688 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*neighbour < 1310766254 831671 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're discussing the UK here, you should use British spellings! < 1310766259 838869 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1310766279 321256 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that the only places that voted Lib Dem were Orkney and the Shetlands. < 1310766300 492497 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: oh right, Scotland has had a full election since the Lib Dem collapse < 1310766313 655789 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote Scotland < 1310766319 272933 :HackEgo!Gregor@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :399) Scotland turns from red and yellow to A DIFFERENT SHADE OF YELLOW < 1310766337 644987 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for people who don't know: the Lib Dems were the third party for ages, and due to a near-tie in the UK general election, actually ended up in power, much to everyone's surprise) < 1310766362 648945 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"were"? did they collapse that much? < 1310766367 383541 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and then when they didn't keep every promise they'd ever made, especially with having to negotiate with the Conservatives, everyone abandoned them in disgust) < 1310766376 26892 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well, they're in power now. < 1310766376 537741 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: they've been coming fourth or fifth or sixth in by-elections < 1310766384 743449 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That too. < 1310766390 514059 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're still in power with the Conservatives, ubt only because there hasn't been an election since < 1310766391 965716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*but < 1310766396 207982 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a pity, because I rather like them < 1310766408 762095 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: basically british voters don't understand the concept of coalitions, i guess < 1310766409 282107 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and think that most of the reasons people are hating them are stupid < 1310766413 870149 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yep < 1310766431 838113 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there's the whole tuition fees thing (which Phantom_Hoover won't have noticed, being Scottish) < 1310766446 355000 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, after the election, all three parties did a U-turn on what to do about university funding < 1310766461 625168 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hey, some of us go to university in England. < 1310766463 614912 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the Lib Dems had the most popular viewpoint beforehand, so people got most annoyed about them changing their mind < 1310766482 533095 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the funny thing is, all three parties are actually proposing the same thing, just with language that makes it seem different < 1310766515 475810 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: with the two party systems of the UK and the US, it's a wonder that the two top parties have ever changed < 1310766518 361727 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difference is between people going to university "for free" and paying a percentage of their income afterwards for a while (popular opinion) < 1310766530 414881 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it took some _major_ societal change < 1310766546 759829 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: with the two party systems of the UK and the US, it's a wonder that the two top parties have ever changed < 1310766555 142584 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and people going to university and paying a lot of money, but then getting a loan for the same amount of money, and paying off the loan with a percentage of their income afterwards for a while (unpopular opinion) < 1310766572 165248 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, in the UK the 2-party system is *far* less pronounced than that in the US. < 1310766573 37196 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't figure out why one opinion is popular and the other is unpopular, given that with a bit of number-tweaking they come to the exact same thing < 1310766590 869468 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, the US has a very strong 2-party system, the UK doesn't < 1310766603 545968 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hard-coded" more like. < 1310766650 398635 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The last time we had a vaguely viable third party was when Theodore Roosevelt started the Progressive Party. In 1912. For 4 years. < 1310766668 210842 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, think of it this way: if both the top 2 parties were simultaneously embroiled in a major scandal in the UK, it would be enough to tip a third party ahead of them across a wide spread of the country < 1310766672 262312 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the US, it wouldn't < 1310766677 259133 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even then, he didn't *win*. Just got second place. < 1310766691 343078 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably a third party wouldn't win anywhere, or even come second < 1310766705 987275 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you get occasional oddball wins in the UK as well < 1310766711 197340 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the Green Party winning a seat last election < 1310766728 967146 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the evidence is very clear that they'd decided that it was the seat they had the best chance of winning, and focused all their efforts on it < 1310766729 672337 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a freak occurance for a third-party candidate to win a state or local seat. < 1310766749 360982 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even less likely to win in the House. < 1310766752 515925 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the general election before last, the Save Kidderminster Hospital Party won a seat < 1310766755 479932 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nearly impossible to win in the Senate. < 1310766756 987700 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was it two seats? I can't remember < 1310766767 506135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(presumably more than one constituency lives within range of Kidderminster Hospital) < 1310766776 232383 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for President, it takes the third party *replacing* a party. < 1310766808 357415 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as a result, the BBC ended up having to come up with a color for them on their maps (I think it was a dark greyish reddish-purple) < 1310766859 875704 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, here we go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Kidderminster_Hospital_and_Health_Concern < 1310766863 875909 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like they only got one seat < 1310766909 689016 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have been trying to expand their manifesto to not be specific to the one hospital (which obviously doesn't come up in debate in Parliament all that often) < 1310766920 41016 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although I bet they tried to change the subject to it whenever they could) < 1310766924 9157 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so as to have a reason for existing) < 1310766968 560336 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't say whether they managed to save the hospital unit < 1310766997 429063 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, that's the reason I went there in the first place :( < 1310767092 97624 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't seem to say in the Kidderminster article either < 1310767120 726275 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I checked there too < 1310767125 991747 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/ih7qd/how_can_some_people_be_so_sure_that_we_cant_know/c23rb67 < 1310767144 370730 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, I tried to go to their website, http://healthconcern.org.uk/ < 1310767154 768802 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and wow, website design from 199x (I forget which x, can someone remind me?) < 1310767197 166159 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, the website implies that they downgraded the hospital in 2000, before the party won its seat < 1310767206 114197 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they've been fighting to have it restored to its former state < 1310767899 230740 :Nisstyre!~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info JOIN :#esoteric < 1310767912 269139 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1310767938 47245 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1310767981 75831 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1310768000 823008 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1310768970 889228 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, what? Is it wrong to correct someone who's mistaken? < 1310768983 892996 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, it's how mistaken he is that is amusing. < 1310769531 560478 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1310769615 2224 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1310769935 676172 :copumpkin!~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1310770092 640473 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Our most common question these last few days has been, "The email address 'submit at machineofdeath dot net' doesn't work! My email program says 'Invalid address!' How do I send in my story??" < 1310770092 814389 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In response we must gently explain that it is actually "submit@machineofdeath.net". " < 1310770117 794309 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, crud, wonder if spambots read these logs < 1310770360 478286 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well google rarely finds them < 1310770707 401156 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 0.6*49.8 + 0.4*2 < 1310770708 772623 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 30.679999999999996 < 1310771905 860245 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1310771972 110486 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Many natural dog food supplements boast garlic as a natural flea preventative. < 1310771972 285314 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"? < 1310771974 976251 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF? < 1310772026 534729 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably fleas don't like the smell of garlic < 1310772033 948131 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :secretly, it's really to ward against vampire dogs < 1310772042 462415 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia JOIN :#esoteric < 1310772199 383416 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But garlic in dog food just... < 1310772209 310327 :NihilistDandy!~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1310772218 826511 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-44c2d23d.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is it just large amounts that are bad? < 1310772313 236755 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only know about chocolate and dogs... < 1310772805 120695 :CakeProphet!~adam@h56.19.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1310772805 660580 :CakeProphet!~adam@h56.19.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host < 1310772805 834103 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1310773590 913025 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the whole thing with chocolate and dogs thing is overblown. < 1310773605 5116 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's actually pretty hard to give a dog a lethal dose of chocolate. < 1310773624 236502 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too little, and it doesn't matter much. Too much and the dog vomits it right away. < 1310773625 172627 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even so, mildly poisoning a pet is a bad thing to do, right? < 1310773632 698008 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, I wouldn't *recommend* it. < 1310773644 432682 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-253-145.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cause you'll either have diarrhea or vomit to clean up after. < 1310773926 105617 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1310773947 962769 :CakeProphet!~adam@h173.1.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1310773948 281224 :CakeProphet!~adam@h173.1.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host < 1310773948 454919 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric