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00:42:05 <coppro> apparently there are functions in the C library that have locale-specific behavior except when in the "C" locale
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00:52:17 <coppro> newsham: I'm just quoting the standard
00:52:28 <newsham> is that for backwards compat?
00:52:46 <coppro> have locale-specific aspects only when not in the "C" locale are noted below.
00:52:59 <coppro> how can you have locale-specific aspects only when not in the "C" locale
00:53:15 <coppro> by definition, something that is only present in the "C" locale is locale-specific
01:00:38 <oerjan> an object that is passed to a function when invoking it
01:02:30 <elliott> 14:08:37: <oerjan> romance in iwc? truly the world is coming to an end
01:02:37 <elliott> oerjan: i sure hope this is the cause of the next fireball
01:03:10 <oerjan> elliott: it is looking disturbingly like dmm is wrapping up loose threads
01:03:38 * elliott tries to find the dinosaur comics guest strip it reminded him of
01:04:55 <elliott> http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1773
01:05:46 <elliott> oerjan: erm, if he's trying to end on the calvin and hobbes point it would be a bit premature
01:05:51 <elliott> unless it'll take seven hundred pages to wrap up all the adventures
01:06:27 <elliott> oerjan: btw have you tried the cunning tactic if he's planning to end the comic? :D
01:06:32 <elliott> oerjan: btw have you tried the cunning tactic of asking if he's planning to end the comic? :D
01:06:49 <oerjan> seven hundred? i think you're off a bit
01:07:01 <elliott> 19:02:31: <pikhq_> Okay, true.
01:07:02 <elliott> 19:02:47: <pikhq_> That alone testifies that they shouldn't have freaking made LotR into a film series.
01:07:02 <elliott> 19:02:58: <pikhq_> It's fundamentally incompatible.
01:07:02 <elliott> 19:08:30: <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, by which you mean it was significantly better than the books
01:07:13 <elliott> oerjan: er oh wait, that was the homestuck count when i compared them :)
01:07:17 <elliott> how long was calvin and hobbes?
01:07:26 <oerjan> elliott: i have never dared to communicate with dmm
01:07:41 <elliott> oerjan: is it because he's ~famous~
01:07:57 <elliott> 19:09:21: <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, the films were pretty good.
01:07:57 <elliott> agree, and i couldn't get past the first hundred pages of Fellowship
01:08:57 <elliott> oerjan: ah. then start worrying.
01:09:04 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaa
01:09:07 <elliott> although that's still almost a hundred pages of wrap-up :D
01:09:27 <elliott> i sure do know a lot about a comic I've never managed to archive binge
01:09:54 <newsham> speaking of archive binge, i need to catch up on smbc
01:10:26 <elliott> oerjan: i don't know how he'll wrap up the hugely intertwined tangle of plot threads that is the Nigerian Finance Minister theme
01:10:41 <elliott> maybe that's what the remaining pages are
01:11:20 * oerjan suddenly wonders if he actually has read all of lotr, or is just imagining doing so
01:11:45 <elliott> oerjan: knowing your attention span i doubt it :D
01:11:53 <oerjan> it's not implausible that i gave up somewhere in fellowship too
01:12:18 <oerjan> elliott: however i absorbed almost anything readable at that age
01:13:02 <newsham> did you read the part where caspian was on the dawn treader?
01:13:06 <elliott> oerjan: oh sweet, im gonna paste this big @ design document
01:13:16 <oerjan> so it's not implausible that i may actually have read it through
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01:13:34 <oerjan> newsham: funny guy, although i _definitely_ have read all the narnia books
01:13:40 <elliott> i read the narnia books when i was a lil one, they were shit
01:13:44 <elliott> i think i thought this because they are shit
01:14:11 <elliott> maybe if i realised they were christian propaganda i would have realised WHY they were shit
01:14:14 <elliott> but i just thought he was a bad writer
01:14:46 <oerjan> elliott: heck i even read some of his _openly_ christian fiction
01:15:08 <elliott> i don't think he was a very clever writer
01:15:10 <oerjan> all this in norwegian translation, btw
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01:16:21 <elliott> If Aslan represented the immaterial Deity in the same way in which Giant Despair [a character in The Pilgrim's Progress] represents despair, he would be an allegorical figure. In reality however he is an invention giving an imaginary answer to the question, 'What might Christ become like, if there really were a world like Narnia and He chose to be incarnate and die and rise again in that world as He actually has done in ours?' This is not allegor
01:16:22 <elliott> y at all. (Martindale & Root 1990)
01:16:26 <elliott> cs lewis doesnt know what allegory means
01:16:34 <elliott> also he thinks jesus is lit. a lion i guess
01:17:02 <newsham> he was just writing books for kids
01:17:10 <oerjan> i think aslan turned into jesus at the end of the last battle
01:17:11 <newsham> (while trying to keep em brainwashed appropriately)
01:17:32 <newsham> he said he's known by other names in other worlds
01:18:10 <newsham> like many movies and books, cs lewis's naria books made ugly pepole bad and bad people ugly and looked down on different people
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01:18:17 <newsham> pretty lame for a "christian" book
01:19:35 <elliott> newsham: to be fair, it also lacked a lot of stoning
01:19:52 <newsham> i'm pretty sure tumnus was constantly stoned
01:19:57 <elliott> the "this isn't _true_ Christianity because it's not nice enough" kind of falls down if you take all the parts together
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01:21:18 * oerjan snickers at "But it's so hard for me to meet new people!"
01:21:22 <elliott> theyre making a sequel to narnia arent they
01:21:33 <pikhq_> I think that Lewis is *capable* of writing good fiction.
01:21:46 <pikhq_> Even within the framework of his "ZOMG MUST BE 120% CHRISTIAN" thing.
01:21:54 <pikhq_> He just seems to have let that framework take over.
01:22:14 <elliott> didn't tolkein reconvert him by basically saying "hey christianity is p. cool dude"
01:22:36 <elliott> and lewis was like "oh ok im christian now"
01:22:52 <elliott> Films directed by Andrew Adamson
01:22:53 <elliott> Shrek (2001) · Shrek 2 (2004) · The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe (2005) · The Chronicles of Narnia: Prince Caspian (2008)
01:23:06 <pikhq_> He claims that it was some long, arduous journey, but, well...
01:23:53 <pikhq_> To be perfectly honest, most Westerners who claim to have "struggled" with their faith are either saying "I keep thinking it's bullshit, but get pulled back in", or are bullshitting you.
01:24:05 <newsham> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2273
01:24:21 <pikhq_> Depending on whether they mean "struggle" as in "questioned" or "suffered personal injury because of".
01:24:35 <newsham> pikhq: or ".. but boy do I love sleeping with my wife's friends..."
01:25:10 <pikhq_> newsham: Or variations thereof.
01:25:21 <pikhq_> "Boy do I love cock" seems to be common as well.
01:25:40 <newsham> and "but the alcohol made me do it"
01:26:03 <pikhq_> Which works better as an excuse with some denominations than others.
01:26:14 <elliott> this sure is some productive debate
01:26:24 <newsham> the important thing is if you check yourself into rehab and tell everyone that god forgives you
01:26:26 <elliott> lets tell /r/circlejerk about it
01:26:41 <pikhq_> I mean, you've got churches that claim the religion mandates you never drink, and churches that literally make beer and wine.
01:32:22 <quintopia> newsham: it would have been more fitting to the topic to link to the one where he uses bible stuff to justify sodomy and pedophilia...
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01:35:20 <newsham> do unto others as you woul dhave them do to you?
01:35:44 <quintopia> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2281#comic
01:36:12 <quintopia> the votey comic is the more interesting one
01:39:24 <elliott> hey i think my previous thoughts about the halting problem were wrong, cool
01:40:19 <elliott> are you gonna write that score system for jous
01:40:41 <quintopia> it's provably uncomputable. proof: find a point in time after which sgeo will never blog into this channel...
01:41:07 <elliott> what, the score system? :D
01:41:32 <quintopia> the score system will happen when i learn that stupid fortran-based algebra system
01:41:46 <quintopia> it has the WORST NAMED FUNCTIONS MANKIND HAS EVER INVENTED
01:41:55 <quintopia> with THE MOST CONFUSING PARAMETER LISTS
01:42:18 <elliott> quintopia: the haskell binding has a nice interface
01:42:25 <elliott> lapack functinos are named systematically
01:42:33 <elliott> so you don't have to look them up if you know the base operation names :)
01:42:41 <elliott> "In 2010, 25 LaRouche supporters protesting a new production of Richard Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen presented by the Los Angeles Opera carried signs that said, ""Wagner: Loved by Nazis, Rejected by Humans" and "L.A. County: $14 Million to promote Nazi Wagner, Layoffs for Music Teachers"."
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01:43:31 <quintopia> explain the naming system to me then
01:43:59 <elliott> jfreadthedocumentation, anyway i was only asking so that i can take advantage of you not doing it by writing my own
01:44:37 <elliott> Subroutines in LAPACK have a characteristic naming convention which makes the identifiers short but rather obscure. This was necessary as the first Fortran standards only supported identifiers up to six characters long, so the names had to be shortened to fit into this limit.
01:44:37 <elliott> A LAPACK subroutine name is in the form pmmaaa, where:
01:44:37 <elliott> p is a one-letter code denoting the type of numerical constants used. S, D stand for real floating point arithmetic respectively in single and double precision, while C and Z stand for complex arithmetic with respectively single and double precision. The newer version LAPACK95 use generic subroutines in order to overcome the need to explicitly specify the data type.
01:44:38 <elliott> mm is a two-letter code denoting the kind of matrix expected by the algorithm. The codes for the different kind of matrices are reported below; the actual data are stored in a different format depending on the specific kind; e.g., when the code DI is given, the subroutine expects a vector of length n containing the elements on the diagonal, while when the code GE is given, the subroutine expects an n×n array containing the entries of the matrix.
01:44:45 <elliott> aaa is a one- to three-letter code describing the actual algorithm implemented in the subroutine, e.g. SV denotes a subroutine to solve linear system, while R denotes a rank-1 update.
01:44:46 <quintopia> i've already done all the parts that don't involving compiling in lapack. i've even downloaded the libraries. i could probably finish it tomorrow with some focus.
01:44:48 <elliott> For example, the subroutine to solve a linear system with a general (non-structured) matrix using real double-precision arithmetic is called DGESV.
01:45:28 <elliott> does it plug in to the existing report.c
01:45:35 <elliott> and yeah but i was going to do it in haskell which means i could be finished in the same time :P
01:45:43 <elliott> also "downloaded the libraries"? what, an apt-get line?
01:45:51 <elliott> quintopia: um it should not require adding new files
01:45:58 <elliott> if you are baking it into chainlance that is wrong
01:46:25 <quintopia> but the scoring code is going in report.c
01:46:39 <quintopia> but if you want to do it and won't fuck it up, have at it.
01:47:04 <elliott> quintopia: chainlance should require _no_ modifications
01:47:06 <elliott> it reports only the raw score
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01:47:32 <quintopia> it required modification, because i needed more than the raw score
01:48:08 <quintopia> the number of wins of each program
01:48:39 <elliott> can't you work that out from the reported raw score
01:49:37 <elliott> anyway, i have some bf joust stuff i am already working on, so i will probably do the scoring system sometime too
01:50:30 <quintopia> so 9-8 looks the same as 10-9 looks the same as 11-10
01:50:57 <elliott> i like the phrasing in terms of betting, btw
01:51:30 <quintopia> if you want the modified lance and build your own report on top of it, i can send you that now
01:52:50 <elliott> nah, it's ok, one of my other projects is lance
01:52:54 <elliott> quintopia: also, plz [asterisk]chainlance
01:53:02 <elliott> it's bad enough fizzie plagiarising my name without you abbreviating it to my name :)
01:53:18 <quintopia> i couldn't remember which lance it was i modified. *lance then
01:55:35 <elliott> 14:53:59: <elliott> variable: emacs v. vi is *very* well-trodden
01:55:36 <elliott> 14:54:03: <elliott> variable: vile vs. nedit would be fun
01:55:40 <elliott> still want this flamewar, btw
01:56:41 <quintopia> how about a language where the same word is used to mean both a word and the opposite word
01:57:34 <quintopia> english gives you the option to be explicitly not sarcastic
01:57:42 <quintopia> in SARCLANG, you are always left guessing
01:58:27 <elliott> 15:17:42: <nooga> i've got a great settlement in a hanging cliff, on a remote island
01:59:44 <quintopia> yes. in english if you preface a statement with figuratively, like THAT WILL FIGURATIVELY CATCH ON FIRE IF YOU DO THAT! then everyone knows you are being serious and not sarcastic.
02:00:17 <elliott> 15:25:52: <elliott> The foundations of mathematics has a strange dogma that ... distilling the smallest possible set of elegant core axioms is both possible and profitable. From there, offering this set of axioms leaves the dirty business of making workable theories to blue-collar workaday mathematicians.
02:01:48 <quintopia> i've started reading "Everything Is Obvious *Once You Know The Answer" and it is pretty awesome so far.
02:10:39 <elliott> 15:25:52: <elliott> The foundations of mathematics has a strange dogma that ... distilling the smallest possible set of elegant core axioms is both possible and profitable. From there, offering this set of axioms leaves the dirty business of making workable theories to blue-collar workaday mathematicians.
02:14:47 <monqy> this confused me at first because I interpreted "laugh" as an action of elliott's rather than a command
02:15:57 <monqy> I should probably stop talking in such a way that "laugh" would indeed be an action like that; I might get confused less
02:16:08 <monqy> (I will never do this)
02:17:27 <elliott> monqy: because you have to laugh at its absurdity, so i can make you cry
02:17:53 <monqy> but I don't want to cry
02:18:19 <monqy> what's a blue-collar workaday mathematician anyway
02:18:40 <monqy> I am horribly out of jive with math culture
02:18:53 <monqy> should get back in jive
02:19:08 <elliott> monqy: ok here's what i modified that from
02:19:16 <elliott> 15:25:20: <elliott> "Programming language design has a strange dogma that ... distilling the smallest possible set of elegant core axioms is both possible and profitable. From there, offering this set of axioms leaves the dirty business of making workable software to blue-collar workaday programmers."
02:19:25 <elliott> (this was from a serious blog post)
02:20:32 <monqy> why would anyone write that. why would anyone think that.
02:21:50 <elliott> so i have the new dark google top bar thing
02:21:53 <monqy> programming languages suck because they're too elegant. perl forever.
02:22:11 <elliott> monqy: http://www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2011/01/minimalism.html enjoy
02:22:38 <quintopia> this is why intercal is BEST LANGUAGE
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02:23:22 <elliott> oh wow what the google design just changed
02:23:27 <elliott> but not when i search with the address bar
02:23:44 <quintopia> it eschews elegance, focusing instead on making things easy for the programmer. for instance, converting numbers to roman numerals or words takes effort on the programmer's part. they shouldn't have to do that.
02:25:14 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/SsaMu.png
02:25:18 <elliott> what happened to be googles
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02:26:29 <elliott> i wonder if there are any penguin furries (yes)
02:26:44 <monqy> http://www.wdyl.com/#esoteric+programming+languages the one true google
02:27:07 <monqy> the one true search engine
02:27:12 <elliott> but its not a search engine
02:27:17 <elliott> "See pictures of sex" --wdyl.com
02:27:27 <elliott> "Alert me about sex" im such a child
02:27:36 <elliott> "Measure popularity of sex on the web
02:27:41 <elliott> "Organize a debate about sex"
02:27:43 <monqy> "Start a fucking blog"
02:27:48 <quintopia> "king dedede rule 34 exists...don't ask me how i know"
02:28:03 <monqy> "Plan your fucking events"
02:28:06 <elliott> "Access sex stuff on the web, faster"
02:29:01 <elliott> Make a photo album about wizards...
02:29:07 <elliott> Measure popularity of wizards... on the web
02:29:56 <elliott> i have fifty-eight backlogged updates
02:30:30 <elliott> quintopia: was that quote just totally ooc btw
02:31:14 <quintopia> elliott: from a forum thread where someone was asking whether penguin furries exist
02:31:32 <elliott> why do furries exist ... i can't help but feel that furries are merely a sign of things to come in the next hundred years of history ...
02:31:43 <elliott> for fucks sake why is something like this necessary furry fandom? more like cult of furrism, some wacked out 21st century meta religion with its own fucking intricate series of SUBSECTS
02:31:43 <quintopia> just search for penguin furries on google. you'll find it.
02:32:09 <elliott> somewhere between final fantasy, dragon ball z, and quake three, the internet stopped being a place where everyone regarded each other as elites and instead resulting in a bunch of poorly misguided rules about "proper posting etiquette"
02:32:09 <elliott> (to this very day i have yet to figure out what this phrase is supposed to mean beyond "be a faggot")
02:32:36 <elliott> http://hell.oddwebsite.com/ well this is the worst webpage i hae ever visited
02:35:08 <elliott> a bunch of people who have evidently mistaken pretending to be stupid with being stupid
02:35:52 <elliott> quintopia: lol at the first post in that penguinfurries thread
02:35:53 <elliott> "I was just thinking about what they would feel like just now."
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02:38:49 <elliott> im not sure which is stronger
02:39:16 <oerjan> it's a love-hate relationship
02:39:18 <elliott> oh god its upgrading the kernel
02:39:22 <elliott> monqy: why do iever upgrade my software
02:39:53 <monqy> sometimes I upgrade my software and it looks ugly or breaks
02:40:33 <elliott> maybe ill just leave it the same version forever
02:40:41 <elliott> and then install the new version and cry for a week
02:43:21 <elliott> Meet the Shen Project - the type-safe heir of Lisp (Qi) that has ambitious aims - from embedded to the Web - "a universal Assembly" (lambdassociates.org)
02:43:25 <elliott> oh god dammit not the qi guy again
02:43:40 <elliott> herp derp let me totally misuse "bipolar" to try and explain programmers being in bored in university
02:43:43 <elliott> im a fucking genius look at me
02:43:56 <elliott> fuck fuck shitty shit fuck fuck
02:44:18 <elliott> thats the reddit headliner though
02:44:55 <elliott> but the author is an idiot.
02:45:19 <elliott> "For that reason I subtitled my talk Back to the Future (after Zemecki's classic time travel film)"
02:46:24 <elliott> "This is not an OSI license, but a free$ license designed to hold the project together around a standard that is well documented and has 20 years R&D behind it."
02:46:33 <monqy> apparently Qi is an award-winning functional programming language based on 20 years R&D that offers the advantages of pattern matching, l calculus consistency, optional lazy evaluation and static type checking.
02:46:39 <elliott> theory: licensing is the easiest place to find if a software developer is a fucking egoist
02:46:55 <pikhq> elliott: I concur.
02:46:55 <elliott> if he's selling it while talking about his ONE-MAN stunning achievement, he's a massive egoist
02:46:59 <monqy> 20 years r&d 20 years r&d
02:47:06 <elliott> if he's avoiding using an open source license to protect his hard work, he's an egoist
02:47:23 <elliott> if he's GPLing it and explicitly states this is to stop eir work being abused by corporations
02:47:26 <elliott> e's an egoist, and delusional
02:47:35 <pikhq> But at least not also a complete ass.
02:48:10 <pikhq> "I want to protect this from corporations, so I'm going to make it worse for everyone", however, is.
02:48:15 <elliott> sometimes i worry that my complete lack of care with what someone does with my code would break down the moment someone "exploits" it and i'm just doing it to seem humble to myself
02:48:41 <elliott> Shen has a great contribution to make in safety critical areas such as
02:48:41 <elliott> high integrity operating systems
02:49:25 <elliott> I wonder if NASA uses formal-logic based software verification techniques?
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02:49:59 <elliott> I have this horrible feeling that they instead rely on manuals of restrictive coding styles ... but can that really be true? NASA's code _works_ almost all the time, on the first actual run
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02:50:11 <elliott> And style guides are _not_ a sufficient methodology to do this
02:50:23 <elliott> monqy: Well, it's not like that's totally uncommon
02:50:28 <elliott> monqy: Intel use a formally verified FPU unit
02:51:03 <pikhq> Probably because they don't want to repeat fdiv.
02:51:09 <elliott> Yes, it started after that IIRC
02:51:24 <elliott> I really want to know how Intel processors are _designed_
02:51:28 <elliott> Obviously it's not all raw chip design programs
02:51:38 <elliott> Because that would be INSANELY huge
02:51:43 <elliott> (The high-level layout of components is obviously that, though)
02:51:52 <elliott> Like -- how do they specify the instruction->microcode transformations?
02:51:59 <elliott> How do they "compile" this into the translator unit?
02:52:05 <elliott> How do they write the microcode interpreter?
02:52:13 <elliott> How do they "compile" this into chip design?
02:52:20 <elliott> It would be very fascinating.
02:52:56 <pikhq> Apparently Google's recent layout change is because of a new service.
02:53:09 <pikhq> They're wanting to get into social networking stuff.
02:53:11 <elliott> no thats just their social networking thing
02:53:14 <elliott> why would that make them change the deign
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02:53:23 <elliott> i just didn't like the top bar with the old page
02:53:27 <elliott> which i still get when searching w/ url bar for some reason
02:53:30 <pikhq> elliott: So it all integrates.
02:54:00 <elliott> it is a nice redesign though?
02:54:10 <elliott> although i don't like the url being above the summary
02:54:17 <elliott> it sort of separated results before
02:54:31 <elliott> pikhq: oh nice, they've unified all the serach
02:54:41 <elliott> http://www.allgraphics123.com/ag/01/13042/13042.jpg
02:56:08 <elliott> hey i have chrome twelve now
02:57:02 <elliott> monqy: http://zwani.com/ oh good site
02:57:10 <elliott> thanks for making "HUG" "Me" zwani
02:57:26 <oerjan> <elliott> I wonder if NASA uses formal-logic based software verification techniques? <-- istr from somewhere (maybe ltu?) that they're based on _exceedingly_ thorough code review
02:57:51 <elliott> oerjan: i guess it's just using humanpower but...
02:57:58 <elliott> its hard to believe that it actually works as well as it does
02:58:32 <elliott> "Also, while we're talking about Ambient Oriented Programming, what about Metaphor-Oriented Programming? See the brilliant Homespring language by Jeff Binder and Joe Neeman: http://xeny.net/H_Ot_M_Ef_S_P_R_Ib_N_G"
02:58:45 <elliott> "I thought that this comment was generated by an intelligent SPAM generator. Maybe its passing the Turing test now?"
02:58:59 <elliott> "I was calling the post that parented your reply SPAM, according to my first-read filter. Actually, reading it again, I think you are correct, its not SPAM, just that the thoughts are enthusiastic but not very well organized yet. The parent poster could work on organizing and polishing their thoughts, it would be easier for us to understand what is going on and provide appropriate feedback."
02:59:04 <elliott> they are taking homespring seriously
02:59:13 <elliott> Homespring is a joke language. I think it's rather funny.
02:59:13 <elliott> By tumble at Fri, 2011-03-11 05:20 | login or register to post comments
02:59:13 <elliott> I didn't get it. I apologize
02:59:14 <elliott> I didn't get it. I apologize for jumping to conclusions.
02:59:16 <elliott> By Sean McDirmid at Fri, 2011-03-11 09:05 | login or register to post comments
02:59:52 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PoGo
02:59:59 <elliott> why are you still making languages
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03:00:08 <elliott> [ and ] become a complicated and probably very arbitary mess of po's and go's and some other things
03:00:11 <elliott> thats not a fucking isomorphism
03:00:14 <monqy> is that by tehz oh madk
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03:00:45 <monqy> Make the coder laugh
03:01:37 <elliott> that was just a silly joke
03:01:51 <monqy> i like how all of his langauges are brainfuck but different????
03:02:05 <monqy> I also like how he doesn't understand isomorphism???????
03:02:26 <elliott> "In fact, I believe that it is precisely because Qi was largely delivered outside the university system that it exists at all."
03:02:31 <elliott> why are you criticising universities in your proposal
03:02:34 <elliott> its not good....................................................
03:02:47 <oerjan> <elliott> thats not a fucking isomorphism <-- IS TOO
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03:03:20 <elliott> oh my god monqy do you have money
03:03:25 <oerjan> well actually it's not, but only because you stupid esolangers insist on forgetting that isomorphisms are invertible...
03:03:26 <elliott> its only like one letter away from monqy
03:03:37 <elliott> oerjan: got a nicer term? :P
03:03:41 <monqy> i only have american money
03:03:49 <elliott> monqy: its ok paypal converts
03:04:13 <oerjan> elliott: embedding, maybe
03:04:31 <elliott> http://sonantlive.bitsnbites.eu/tool/ oh fun times
03:04:35 <elliott> oerjan: that's not very evocative
03:05:49 <elliott> monqy: http://www.allgraphics123.com/
03:06:19 <elliott> oh james hague did banksimple???
03:06:21 <monqy> it doesn't want to load but I trust it's quality
03:06:47 <monqy> good categories, good graphics123
03:06:54 <elliott> i dont see hague on on banksimples page
03:07:25 <oerjan> elliott: hm the tcs term would be "reduction", me thinks
03:07:28 <elliott> "Crap, you're more than right, my bad. It was only linked by al3x, CTO of BankSimple."
03:08:00 <elliott> monqy: hey do you read Arcane Sentiment, if so, are you actually literally me
03:08:17 <monqy> I think I used to know what that was
03:08:27 <monqy> I should try again
03:08:32 <elliott> http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/
03:08:52 <elliott> it is full of correct opinions and good words
03:08:54 <monqy> oh right I read a few of the posts once
03:09:04 <monqy> I remember it being pretty correct and good
03:09:15 <monqy> doesn't look too updated since then though
03:09:25 <elliott> yeah it has not updated in a few months? :(
03:09:28 <elliott> the archives are all good though
03:09:44 <elliott> monqy: what about Programming in the 21st Century
03:09:51 <monqy> never even heard of that one
03:10:41 <elliott> it's got a lot of comparison to retro days + functional programming things + a lot of performance-focused mindset putdown
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03:36:25 <monqy> elliott: pogo not a joke language? have you read the spec and examples?
03:36:40 <monqy> I haven't either but I just saw a few of them and they sound like a really bad joke
03:36:46 <elliott> monqy: it's certainly a joke but we have a specific definition of joke language :)
03:37:03 <elliott> TURKEY BOMB is a joke language, a language that is just terrible is not
03:37:24 <monqy> I should look up the definition sometime
03:37:27 <monqy> I probably forgot it
03:37:28 <elliott> Ook is also arguably a joke language, but this actually adds something
03:37:31 <elliott> even though what it adds is rubbish
03:37:40 <elliott> monqy: http://catseye.tc/gallery/languages/turkeyb/
03:37:44 <elliott> it's amazing, and maybe even implementable and TC :P
03:37:56 <monqy> yeah I remember reading it once or twice
03:38:17 <elliott> `quote it's all coming together
03:38:30 <HackEgo> 106) <scarf> and an AMICED literal would presumably /add/ info to the source <scarf> whatever info gets added, that's the value that the AMICED doesn't contain <scarf> it's all falling into place
03:40:12 <monqy> looking more carefully, pogo looks like half boring and half bad joke
03:40:23 <monqy> like really bad joke
03:40:31 <monqy> he - push the masculinity of the current memory cell onto the memory stack (Chuck Norris may cause stack overflow)
03:41:43 <monqy> the second-to-last block of commands in the spec reminds me of HQ9+
03:42:46 <monqy> it even has the H and 9, and a command to make Q trivial
03:42:50 <elliott> oerjan: i have started to apply the "reduction" terminology
03:43:17 <monqy> I should make an "isomorphism" with hq9+
03:43:29 <elliott> oerjan: that i am being good? :D
03:43:58 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Brainfuck&curid=961&diff=23474&oldid=23331
03:44:02 <elliott> monqy: reading now out of date
03:45:10 <monqy> reading of pogo spec and exampels try not to cry
03:45:29 <monqy> Make the coder laugh
03:45:29 <elliott> id need to be a cybord withougt emotions and then i might spontaenously devleop them to cry
03:45:35 <elliott> should i laugh after reading it
03:45:37 <elliott> like a really hollow laugh
03:45:59 <monqy> going to look up what poop does
03:46:12 <elliott> po - add current position in code to the top of the po stack
03:46:12 <elliott> op - pop from the memory stack and place the value in the current memory cell
03:46:30 <monqy> what happens when you pop from an empty stack
03:46:59 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=User:TehZ&curid=3382&diff=23473&oldid=23441
03:47:59 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&curid=2038&diff=23467&oldid=23457
03:48:03 <elliott> oerjan: maybe i should move it to L
03:48:14 <elliott> monqy: what, [[User talk:TehZ]]?
03:50:21 <elliott> maharba is a good person, some of their languages aren't very interesting but they have good opinions
03:50:25 <elliott> opinions hour with elliott
03:52:56 <elliott> they make fun of the right things and know good things to know that a lot of bad people on the wiki don't
03:53:00 <oerjan> you mean The language defined by the Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme?
03:53:39 <elliott> I wonder how you expand Revised^-1 Report on the Kernel Programming Language
03:54:01 <oerjan> elliott: wait, that exists?
03:54:17 <elliott> ftp://ftp.cs.wpi.edu/pub/techreports/pdf/05-07.pdf
03:54:28 <elliott> nice things with interesting opinions
03:54:31 <elliott> uh let me link to the site/ltu
03:54:38 <elliott> http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~jshutt/kernel.html
03:55:07 <elliott> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4093
03:55:07 <elliott> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1680
03:55:32 <elliott> ($cond ((eval x env) (eval y env))
03:55:40 <elliott> ($vau (ptree . body) static-env
03:55:40 <elliott> (wrap (eval (list* $vau ptree #ignore body)
03:55:45 * elliott realises the chances of oerjan reading any of these is 0
03:56:20 <oerjan> ...maybe you know me too well.
03:56:45 <elliott> http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~jshutt/kernel.html
03:56:48 <elliott> see that's an easy short webpage
03:57:17 <elliott> that implementation of lambda is great though
04:05:55 <monqy> this kernel language thing is pretty nifty
04:06:19 <elliott> and yeah it is, i disagree with some of the principles listed in the report, but it's a good coherent philosophy
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04:11:32 <elliott> http://libposix.sourceforge.net/ oh lol this again
04:11:52 <elliott> http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/libposix/index.php?title=Compare
04:12:07 <elliott> cool, wants me to log in to view their full news
04:14:07 <monqy> Will you help developing infrastructure that will power next decade Unix ?
04:15:08 <monqy> a bold claim for a bold attempt to unify the implementation of the core functionality of all Unix systems
04:17:05 <monqy> so did they get hello world 2 years ago and give up
04:17:23 <elliott> http://wonder-tonic.com/cageyourqueue/
04:17:52 <elliott> http://wonder-tonic.com/cageyourqueue/
04:17:59 <elliott> nobody say anything not related to it
04:19:09 <pikhq> My *goodness* libposix is sad.
04:19:31 <pikhq> Oh, it's actually reasonable source code.
04:19:35 <pikhq> It just implements so very little.
04:19:37 <elliott> "the number of Nic Cage films on Netflix is declining"
04:19:42 <elliott> maye i will have to buy it all
04:20:10 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Cage#Filmography
04:20:10 <pikhq> I'd say it has every *trivial* libc function.
04:20:46 <pikhq> Its malloc returns NULL.
04:21:06 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brubaker first nicholas cage movie
04:21:18 <pikhq> Just so very, very sad after having been doing stuff with musl.
04:21:56 <elliott> pikhq: itll be a very fast malloc
04:22:03 <elliott> if you have a manual pool allocator fallback things will still work
04:22:07 <elliott> and what professional programmer wouldn't
04:22:29 <pikhq> Eh, has the same O() as musl malloc, but musl malloc is more useful.
04:22:52 <elliott> oh god http://muppetswithpeopleeyes.tumblr.com/
04:22:56 <elliott> from the person who brought you cage your queue
04:23:20 <pikhq> Aaaah, musl. The libc I understand.
04:23:27 <monqy> muppets with people eyes is brilliant
04:23:33 <monqy> too bad it's dead :'(
04:23:35 <pikhq> Even its freaking ld.so is reasonable.
04:23:39 <elliott> http://wonder-tonic.com/books2barcodes/read.php?title=artofwar how fucking long is art of war
04:23:58 <elliott> monqy: maybe they did it to all the muppets
04:25:34 <pikhq> elliott: http://git.etalabs.net/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=musl;a=blob;f=src/ldso/dynlink.c;h=031e1f0f22f51ecabf8cb39638f7565e6e25c947;hb=HEAD
04:25:45 <monqy> muppets with people eyes also makes me think birds with arms, another brilliant innovation
04:25:59 <elliott> pikhq: why are you linking me to musl code
04:26:21 <pikhq> elliott: Because it doesn't make me want to stab people.
04:26:26 <pikhq> It really doesn't.
04:26:44 <elliott> monqy: http://i.imgur.com/GsLB1.jpg actual ad
04:26:45 <pikhq> This is the highest praise I have to offer a C library.
04:27:15 <monqy> ads like that make me wonder what's behind them
04:27:59 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Alight this language is hilarious
04:28:05 <elliott> reversed cat example is pretty much perfect
04:29:40 <elliott> oh wow hes behind this game too http://wonder-tonic.com/cannibalism/
04:29:51 <monqy> I remember that game
04:30:21 <elliott> any game called "resort to cannibalism" is good
04:33:59 <elliott> who the fuck writes things in 13/4
04:35:29 <elliott> http://208.87.32.71/landerbanners/he/hexham.com.jpg hexham
04:37:23 <monqy> why is that guy floating and why is he attacking that poor lady
04:38:04 <monqy> good picture of a whatever that is licking its nose too
04:38:26 <monqy> do tiger noses taste good
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04:51:58 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm-O3FKFI74 first zepto game
04:53:56 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD_(video_game) oh i've reada bout this before
04:54:37 <elliott> i love how annoying the walking is
04:54:57 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN7TLylDxqs this is amazing
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04:55:35 <monqy> I've heard of that game
04:55:48 <elliott> this is amazing watch that video i just linked monqy it's wow
04:56:29 <elliott> is this guy sinking as he walks
05:00:40 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDji5zhu1nc ending of that game
05:01:53 <elliott> haha does it really shake the controller JESUS OH MY GOD THAT IS TERRIFYING
05:01:55 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U2LV7320zA
05:04:32 <elliott> monqy: the worst thing is if you rewind a bit
05:04:37 <elliott> you can see that it isn't there before they look
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05:05:40 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF55WLjljMQ wow
05:05:45 <elliott> is this the real soundtrack
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05:06:29 <elliott> http://torrentz.eu/search?f=LSD+dream+eulator
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05:48:02 <elliott> These are the participants in this conversation. The details come from information that is already in your Contacts.
05:48:02 <elliott> You do not currently share a photo with recipients.
05:48:02 <elliott> Some actions, such as collapse/expand, are now icons to the right of the subject or can be found in the More menu in the toolbar.
05:48:07 <elliott> GMAIL QHT ARE YOU DOING STOP CHANGING
05:48:14 <elliott> google what is going on we need to talk
05:48:31 <coppro> what did they do this time?
05:48:39 <elliott> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1440&bih=761&q=help+why+is+google+changing&oq=help+why+is+google+changing&aq=f&aqi=&aql=undefined&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1100l4107l0l27l16l0l8l0l0l732l1502l3-1.1.0.1l3
05:48:45 <elliott> help it in't sovligny mr ptobvlem
05:48:53 <elliott> coppro: i don't actually mind the changes its just fun to pretend i do
05:49:02 <elliott> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1440&bih=761&q=help+no+stop+go+back&oq=help+no+stop+go+back&aq=f&aqi=&aql=undefined&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=24130l25946l0l22l14l0l7l0l0l205l993l1.5.1l7
05:49:08 <elliott> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1440&bih=761&q=i+dont+like+you+any+more&oq=i+dont+like+you+any+more&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=undefined&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=3269l4940l0l24l7l0l0l0l0l401l401l4-1l1
05:49:53 <monqy> i told google to solve all of my problems
05:50:22 <monqy> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101128134505AAgjzqU but it did find me this gem
05:50:57 <elliott> If a man doesn't exist, he hasn't any problems, does it?
05:51:14 <elliott> considering replacing my wiki user page with that
05:52:47 <monqy> i wonder if mister braun did the suicide
05:53:04 <monqy> Sorry, we couldn't find who you were looking for
05:53:04 <monqy> This person may not exist, there may be a problem with the link or **gulp** their account has been suspended.
05:53:24 <elliott> uM, wHAT ELSE DO BRAUN MAKE,
05:55:16 <elliott> dear audacity, what kind of person is called nasca octavian paul
06:00:25 <olsner> the kind of person nasca octavian paul is, obviously
06:02:10 <elliott> ZynAddSubFX is a open source software synthesizer capable of making a countless number of instruments, from some common heard from expensive hardware to interesting sounds that you'll boost to an amazing universe of sounds.
06:02:10 <elliott> The project was started in March 2002 by Nasca Octavian Paul. He began to write ZynAddSubFX in order to create a synthesizer which could produce beautiful sounds, while being freely available to anybody who needs it.
06:02:57 <monqy> . . . from some common heard from expensive hardware to interesting sounds that you'll boost to an amazing universe of sounds.
17:34:14 <EgoBot> /bin/df: Warning: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
17:34:27 <Gregor> I wonder if this'll work:
17:34:47 <Gregor> Well, anyway, there's space now X-P
17:44:21 <ais523> did you delete /var, or something silly like that?
17:47:12 <ais523> also, hmm, the latest big "hack" attempt was accidental, by Googlebot
17:49:09 <ais523> apparently one of Groupon's subsidiaries posted their entire username/password index, without hashing or encryption, somewhere publicly indexable
17:49:18 <ais523> presumably by mistake, but it's a pretty silly thing to do
17:49:53 <ais523> and Googlebot just went and downloaded a copy, like it's supposed to, and started serving it to everyone
17:50:29 <ais523> I haven't heard of them either
17:50:31 <Vorpal> why on earth wouldn't they use hash
17:50:39 <ais523> but apparently they're relatively major
17:50:53 <coppro> groupon is a pyramid scheme basically
17:50:58 <newsham> I cant hear the word "groupon" without thinking "raging groupon"
17:50:59 <Vorpal> I heard the brand name "Groupon" before, can't remember where, or what they do
17:51:00 <ais523> they're apparently in the middle of an IPO that values them at $15 billion
17:51:01 <coppro> that made a lot of money
17:51:20 <ais523> and the press think it's not an implausible value
17:51:54 <newsham> groupon is clever. trick unsophisticated businesses into taking a loss with the profits going to groupon.
17:52:10 <newsham> although it has a fatal flaw.. bankruptcy.
17:52:13 <ais523> how exactly does it work?
17:52:36 <ais523> I predict about a 70% chance it'll have useful info explaining
17:52:40 <newsham> groupon gives businesses money up front, in exchange groupon is allowed to come up with some coupons and give them out to customers that cost the businesses money
17:53:22 <newsham> and groupon gets paid for this promotion, i think based on how many customers it delivers?
17:53:27 <coppro> http://www.knewton.com/blog/knewton/from-jose/2011/06/03/groupon-is-a-straight-up-ponzi-scheme/
17:54:12 <newsham> http://www.couponing101.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/gap-receipt.jpg
17:55:30 <ais523> hmm, the Ponzi scheme thing seems to refer to people investing in Groupon
17:55:51 <ais523> it seems beneficial for Groupon's customers (the companies) and Groupon's users, too
17:56:17 <coppro> It's not beneficial for the customers
17:56:21 <newsham> it sounds like groupon customers arent so happy, in general.
17:56:32 <coppro> because they give product away at a loss
17:56:34 <newsham> they get lots of business on unfavorable terms and are not translating well to repeat business
17:56:50 <coppro> and because the discount is so deep and can be repeated elsewhere, this does not create loyalty
17:56:54 <ais523> ah, I didn't realise the companies would be so stupid as to use lossmaking values for the discounts
17:57:09 <ais523> I assumed the coupons would let the companies' customers buy at cost or slightly more
17:57:12 <ais523> requires? OK, that's silly
17:57:15 <Phantom_Hoover> RANDOM HILARIOUS NEWS OF THE DAY: my half-Japanese friend doesn't know what catgirls are.
17:57:25 <coppro> ais523: Or, well, 'negotiates'
17:57:30 <newsham> ais: thats where the cash upfront comes in.
17:57:35 <newsham> desperate companies take the deal
17:57:44 <coppro> ais523: Strictly speaking, the typical rate is 50% discount, groupon gets hallf the money on a sale
17:57:46 <newsham> seems pretty predatory to me
17:57:53 <coppro> ais523: so the merchant is selling at 25%
17:58:17 <coppro> few merchants can sustainably sell at 25%
17:58:32 <ais523> I thought many businesses could actually afford 75% discounts from regular prices, on many products
17:58:35 <newsham> so what you need to do is form a company, form a groupon. declare bankruptcy, move to bahamas
17:58:41 <ais523> depending on the business, profit margins can be really high
17:58:51 <ais523> it doesn't make much sense if you have marrow margins
17:58:59 <ais523> newsham: do you benefit from this?
17:59:07 <ais523> it seems to hurt Groupon, but I don't see how it helps you
17:59:10 <coppro> High-elasticity products will have narrow margins
17:59:17 <Gregor> Narrow margins are fine if your throughput is huge.
17:59:19 <coppro> now, actual coupon users get a bargain
17:59:19 <newsham> ais: groupon gives you cash up front for your coupons
17:59:59 <coppro> ais523: Also, the margin is never all at the retail end
18:00:00 <newsham> can you see how this might be a little predatory? :)
18:00:06 <ais523> OK, I thought this was a sensible business model originally
18:00:10 <ais523> but the more I hear about it, the stupider it seems
18:00:18 <coppro> see? that's what they want investors to think
18:00:22 <coppro> "oh that sounds great here's my money"
18:00:37 <coppro> then just take advantage that rational actors have no influence on the market
18:01:02 <newsham> must put a lot of stress on an industry.. all your competitors are getting cash up front for this great groupon tihng, your customers all shop next door for a few months, you take a loss, then your competitors take a loss
18:01:08 <newsham> then things go back to normal?
18:01:28 <newsham> for those few months your competitors all probably seem like geniuses
18:01:29 <ais523> I still don't think it's a pyramid scheme, though
18:01:40 <ais523> a different sort of scam
18:02:07 <coppro> ais523: it's a pyramid scheme in that it relies on untapped markets to get revenue in an unsustainable fashion
18:02:16 <coppro> when you run out of untapped markets, it collapses
18:02:33 <ais523> yep, that's a necessary condition to be a pyramid scheme, but not a sufficient one
18:02:51 <ais523> pyramid schemes rely on their members thinking that other people will join
18:03:06 <newsham> hmm.. does a pyramid scheme require exponential growth?
18:03:08 <ais523> groupon relies on the opposite
18:03:16 <newsham> couldnt you have a pyramid scheme with jsut n^2 growth? seems like it would work.
18:03:26 <ais523> newsham: in theory you can have a pyramid scheme that grows linearly in members and linearly in size of investment
18:03:31 <newsham> just has to be super linear, right?
18:03:42 <ais523> but most people will notice it'll quickly collapse
18:03:52 <newsham> if its just linear how would you pay off early investors?
18:04:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Pyramid schemes require that investors profit by being paid off with new investors.
18:04:17 <Phantom_Hoover> So they almost always have a roughly fixed growth constant.
18:04:29 <ais523> newsham: investor 1 pays investor 0 $1, then investor 2 pays investor 1 $2, then investor 3 pays investor 2 $3, etc
18:04:32 <ais523> everyone makes a $1 profit
18:04:38 <ais523> except the last person to join
18:04:55 <ais523> but most people will notice that people will be unlikely to join that after a bit
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18:08:51 <newsham> ais: the amount of money is growing n^2 in that scheme, no?
18:10:20 <ais523> it's quadratic overall
18:10:30 <ais523> because two different things are growing linearly
18:10:43 <ais523> but the amount of money owed at any given time is O(n)
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19:17:54 <Vorpal> elliott, what about SSD optimisation stuff. What needs to be done to make the most out of an SSD
19:18:26 <elliott> literally nothing. you can set like two lvm flags to align the metadata, but that was relevant like
19:18:31 <elliott> you might want to look into getting TRIM
19:18:39 <elliott> keep calm and carry on, it'll be fine
19:18:53 <elliott> oh and the blog that had the lvm flag is now down, heh
19:18:56 <Vorpal> elliott, right, so those flags need not be set?
19:19:14 <elliott> Vorpal: you can do it if you want like
19:19:29 <Vorpal> elliott, what about wear with/without?
19:19:31 <elliott> that kind of thinking will lead to you avoiding upgrading the system because it would involve a write :)
19:19:35 <elliott> Vorpal: should be the same
19:19:38 <elliott> I can dreg up the flag anyway
19:20:09 <elliott> Vorpal: this may make using the debian installer harder though if you're going that route :D
19:20:23 <elliott> Vorpal: ok see http://web.archive.org/web/20090224074532/http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2009/02/20/aligning-filesystems-to-an-ssds-erase-block-size/
19:20:37 <Vorpal> elliott, I went path of least resistance: reusing existing install of arch. At least to begin with
19:20:44 <Vorpal> elliott, finally what about TRIM?
19:20:49 <Vorpal> elliott, what about brtfs?
19:21:03 <elliott> Linux 2.6.33Feb 2010[20]Not all filesystems make use of TRIM. Ext4 and Btrfs are known to support it[21]
19:21:05 <elliott> Vorpal: btrfs is oracle-controlled
19:21:11 <elliott> to the point of "this may eat your data" right onw
19:21:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I guess you can go with ext4 if TRIM is vital but note
19:21:32 <elliott> Vorpal: you can always reset the SSD to stock state
19:21:35 <elliott> with the special intel boot cd things
19:21:48 <elliott> so it's not like not having TRIM is a permanent crippling
19:21:49 <Vorpal> sounds like work. TRIM sounds like less work
19:22:00 <elliott> um you realise that it would take many years to get to a situation where TRIM would be relevant?
19:22:08 <elliott> by which point most fses will support it
19:22:20 <elliott> just saying that TRIM shouldn't matter much right now
19:23:04 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, I wouldn't worry, I mean, I use an SSD with Linux after all :P
19:23:20 <elliott> No alignment, I doubt it does TRIM since my drive is Apple-only stuff
19:23:25 <elliott> Everything is ridiculously fast
19:23:43 <elliott> (OS X does TRIM as of late, but I never use OS X)
19:23:54 <elliott> tl;dr don't worry about it
19:26:54 <Vorpal> elliott, btw where did I say it was Intel?
19:27:00 <Vorpal> (it is, but why did you assume that?)
19:27:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Because if it isn't, you're a fool, and it's pointless to bother microoptimising :P
19:27:49 <elliott> (He says, using a non-Intel SSD, but then Apple's SSD suppliers are Good.)
19:27:54 <elliott> (Not as good as Intel though.)
19:29:01 <Vorpal> pvs /dev/sdb2 -o+pe_start <-- blurgh, how do you even read that
19:29:14 <elliott> Vorpal: you realise that was written for the previous gen intel ssds btw?
19:29:31 <elliott> They're meant to have magic to make it have no effect anyway... SUPPOSEDLY
19:29:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant the option :P - AND + in one option
19:29:41 <elliott> I thought LVM was usable and simple and perfect
19:29:49 <elliott> Sorry, I misspelled gigantic headache.
19:39:52 <Vorpal> elliott, the LVM tools changed anyway, they align on 1 MB now it seems
19:40:19 <Vorpal> so it should work nicely
19:40:30 <Vorpal> elliott, now for the fs for /boot... hm
19:41:02 <Vorpal> elliott, be glad I didn't ask you about the hell that is GPT (which my system can boot, I just decide not to)
19:41:09 <elliott> what are you going for main partition?
19:41:33 <elliott> ext2 for /boot is probably the safest, because grub one can't boot JFS iirc, and you don't need journalling or anything
19:42:06 <Vorpal> elliott, well LVM, and /usr, /opt etc on that... /home and such on non-SSD anyway
19:42:16 <elliott> i was asking what iflesystem
19:42:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I haven't decided yet
19:42:36 <elliott> have i mentioned jfs jfs jfs, thought that was quite relevant
19:42:43 <Vorpal> elliott, I had jfs corrupt my data before
19:42:54 <elliott> uh really? i kind of doubt jfs was the culprit
19:43:00 <elliott> i mean, it is IBM after all :D
19:43:25 <Vorpal> elliott, jfs didn't work well with vmware
19:44:01 <Vorpal> elliott, data corruption
19:44:09 <Vorpal> from what I heard it was blamed on jfs
19:44:37 <elliott> or running vmware vms on a jfs filesystem
19:44:53 <elliott> if the latter, seems fishy considering vmware's general quality :P
19:45:23 <Vorpal> elliott, having disk images on jfs paritions
19:45:31 <Vorpal> elliott, and the bug was found and fixed iirc
19:45:45 <Vorpal> just saying, I'm no fan of jfs since then
19:45:47 <elliott> Seems unfair to hold it against JFS then, not like ext has never had bugs :P
19:45:57 <elliott> Unless you're gonna use a formally verified file system...
19:46:16 <Vorpal> elliott, ext had bugs yes. However a key difference is that they never corrupted data for me
19:46:31 <Sgeo> "Also realize that modern science has figured out that apparently most, if not all, species on earth died during the ice age. And that human life forms seem to be the only one who survived, because human DNA has been found from before the ice age, that shows there were three different kinds of humans on earth, all very closely resembling the current human population. "
19:47:20 <Sgeo> http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/27558
19:47:29 <Vorpal> Sgeo, so.... things like horses would descend from us?
19:47:36 <Vorpal> that makes no fucking sense
19:48:12 <Sgeo> Vorpal, I think the idea is that all those things were after the ice age??... I have trouble understanding this silliness myself
19:49:04 <Sgeo> http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/i-dont-believe-in-god-jesus-or-the-bible-gods-manual-on-atheism-and-other-religions-free-from-bondage-ministry/1029147114?r=1&if=N&cm_mmc=Store-_-k352219-_-j12871747k352219-_-Primary read this for the reviews
19:50:40 <Sgeo> Vorpal, this is apparently a combination of the Garden of Eve story with "God made Angels first, they were like humans, and this was before the Garden of Eden"
19:51:05 * Vorpal goes back to carefully setting up the system
19:52:12 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/ica2j/does_a_fetus_have_brain_waves/
19:53:21 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/ic5h6/how_do_gas_planets_work_ie_jupiter_nuptune_etc/
19:55:05 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: are you looking for stupid posts in that particular subreddit?
19:55:16 <ais523> or not necessarily stupid, but likely to attract idiots (which is not the same thing)?
19:55:38 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, nah, it's just that things like this end up with a certain quantity of badly-formed questions.
19:56:00 <Vorpal> "abnormally abends" <-- what a lovely phrase (man mount, section on jfs)
19:56:20 <Vorpal> because abend means ending abnormally according to google
19:56:35 <elliott> So it abnormally ends abnormally?
19:56:51 <Vorpal> elliott, no no... "abnormally abnormally ends"
19:57:36 <ais523> but "Abend" is german for "afternoon"
19:58:41 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abnormal_end
20:00:22 <ais523> I was even thinking "evening" as I typed that line
20:00:38 <ais523> and looked up when I saw your correction and found that I'd somehow written the wrong thing anyway
20:12:26 <Vorpal> elliott, man mkfs.ext4, check docs for -E discard/nodiscard
20:12:30 <Vorpal> both claim to be the default
20:17:21 <Vorpal> elliott, do this error look sane to you? "The resize maximum must be greater than the filesystem size."
20:17:37 <Vorpal> elliott, it doesn't to me, because I'm trying to go for the "equal" case
20:17:43 <elliott> Yes, because it allocates some space for it, IIRC
20:17:59 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I'm trying to go for the case of not being able to grow my /boot
20:18:09 <Vorpal> you see, I don't plan to resize /boot
20:18:23 <Vorpal> in fact since it is an MBR style partition, it would be a PITA
20:18:58 <elliott> Just choose a size slightly bigger, FFS
20:19:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well I did, but it still seems stupid :P
20:21:08 <Vorpal> Showing results for ZFS TRIM. Search instead for JFS TRIM.
20:21:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:22:38 <elliott> Vorpal: you complain about jfs data loss
20:22:41 <elliott> Vorpal: and then go to use zfs?
20:22:55 <Vorpal> elliott, read what I said again
20:23:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I searched for JFS TRIM
20:23:12 <Vorpal> and it gave me ZFS TRIM
20:23:30 <elliott> yeah i don't think jfs supports TRIM yet
20:23:33 <elliott> Vorpal: http://lwn.net/Articles/345020/
20:23:36 <elliott> found via http://www.mail-archive.com/jfs-discussion@lists.sourceforge.net/msg01486.html
20:24:15 <Vorpal> elliott, so ext4 it is
20:24:27 <elliott> Vorpal: um did you not read my link
20:24:42 <elliott> and also did you not listen when I said TRIM is really irrelevant for you and you can always retcon it on later if it gets added
20:26:15 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
20:26:20 <elliott> These basically scan for free blocks in a filesystem, and batch them together
20:26:20 <elliott> into huge DSM/TRIM commands to the drive, letting it know about them all for
20:26:20 <elliott> garbage-collection and wear-leveling purposes.
20:26:29 <Vorpal> elliott, using hdparm on jfs on top of lvm2... HRRM!
20:26:42 <elliott> But seriously, don't make an FS decision based on TRIM support, it's really irrelevant considering you can
20:26:53 <elliott> - wipe the drive and copy the fs back later if trim gets added
20:27:00 <elliott> - it won't make any difference at all for years and years anyway
20:28:35 <elliott> well you don't even have to wipe the drive
20:28:39 <elliott> you could just take advance of TRIM incrementally
20:28:44 <elliott> but if you wanted it to be like "TRIM all along"...
20:49:19 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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21:01:08 <olsner> I saw "abend" in the log ... I hope you were talking about abnormal ends of batch jobs
21:01:45 <olsner> (btw: batch is only one letter away from bitch)
21:02:09 <monqy> botch butch betch bytch
21:03:23 <olsner> lawl: "protect yourself from net fraud with paypal" ... more like expose yourself
21:03:45 <olsner> I've encountered net fraud exactly once, and it was paypal who stole my money
21:07:56 -!- foocraft_ has joined.
21:09:58 <elliott_> first i followed on with monqy, "themes on bach"
21:10:00 -!- _foocraft has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:10:07 <elliott_> then i was "paypal absurd moneyfraud extraordinphishaire"
21:11:28 <newsham> so long and thanks for all the phish
21:11:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:15:25 <olsner> that looked like "oljud" during the first three (or so) looks
21:15:31 <olsner> which is swedish for noise
21:16:33 <olsner> (well, annoying noise - not-as-annoying noise has a different word)
21:18:13 -!- Patashu has joined.
21:33:40 <olsner> oerjan: what's it in norwegian then?
21:37:10 <olsner> jag menar, vad heter "oljud" på norska?
21:38:00 <elliott_> Ég tala ekki það tungumál hvað er þetta hjálpa þar sem er eldfjalla minn: (
21:38:30 <elliott_> oerjan: (what does that mean?)
21:38:31 <olsner> hmm... having trouble with the tongues and the volcanoes, are we?
21:38:39 * oerjan wonders why elliott_ suddenly is talking about volcanoes
21:39:00 <elliott_> Ég er íslenskur maður við erum einföld höfum eldfjöll og einnig ís en ekki mikið meira og það er það sem er á Íslandi og
21:39:37 <oerjan> surely you must at least have polar bears
21:39:53 <olsner> can polar bears swim that far?
21:40:24 <olsner> sure, they're on the north pole and all the way down lofoten(?), but iceland is quite far west of there
21:40:28 <oerjan> olsner: i vaguely recall a story about a polar bear making it to iceland a few years ago
21:42:25 <olsner> fan vet jag, men öl är öl
21:42:45 <elliott_> hjálp hvað eru orð og, hvernig segi ég þá
21:43:15 <elliott_> Einnig gæti ég haft faðmlag ég er mjög langt frá Íslandi og þess vegna er ég hræddur við dauðann (þetta er íslenska leiðin;
21:43:49 * oerjan was a bit confused as he thought bjór was some inflection of björn
21:44:30 <olsner> I just read that as "what is bear"
21:44:54 <olsner> elliott_: what is bear!?
21:45:23 <oerjan> elliott_: given the crazy _actual_ declination of björn, it's completely plausible at a glance :P
21:47:00 <olsner> maybe you should ask an icelander instead of a norwegian
21:47:37 <elliott_> Deewiant: how do you know, you're no icelanderic.
21:47:49 <elliott_> or do you know all those language things.
21:48:05 <oerjan> elliott_: i don't know enough icelandic to distinguish your sentences from grammatically correct ones
21:48:06 <Deewiant> "Hvað er Björn" just seems wrong
21:48:15 <Deewiant> Didn't really look at the rest
21:48:26 <elliott_> Deewiant: It's just S"What is Björn"
21:48:40 <olsner> "björn" seems unlikely to be the icelandic form of it
21:48:52 <elliott_> it was a crosslingual boundarymunction
21:48:57 <oerjan> olsner: um björn _is_ icelandic for bear
21:49:01 <Deewiant> And that's like saying "what is elliott"
21:49:20 <olsner> because it's also swedish for bear
21:49:26 <oerjan> olsner: i was surprised too :P
21:49:32 <elliott_> Deewiant: It's right because that's what I typed in :P
21:49:37 <olsner> it's not supposed to be the same words ever, icelandic should be weird!
21:49:43 <Deewiant> elliott_: Hence "as good as your English"
21:49:45 <oerjan> my first guess was that it would be bjónn
21:49:50 <elliott_> <oerjan> olsner: um björn _is_ icelandic for bear
21:50:21 <olsner> elliott_: icelandic quotes every word you know
21:50:36 <elliott_> olsner: hshut up i did alt-{ space
21:50:59 <Deewiant> elliott_: http://www.dailykitten.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/373-046.jpg
21:51:42 <olsner> or, of course, alt-altgr-7
21:52:32 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:53:16 <oerjan> do _not_ confuse with a different daily.*tten.com
21:53:17 <Vorpal> olsner, what OS? I just tried it here, and it does nothing (as I expected) :P
21:53:33 <olsner> Vorpal: not OS, keyboard layout
21:53:41 <Vorpal> olsner, okay what keyboard layout then
21:54:05 <olsner> except that alt-8 was based on misreading { as (
21:54:55 <olsner> alt+shift+key-right-of-p makes an alt-{ on an american layout (which is alt-Å on a swedish keyboard)
21:55:20 <olsner> and alt-altgr-7 makes alt-{ on a swedish keyboard
21:55:30 <olsner> if alt and altgr combine, that is
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22:20:46 <Vorpal> elliott_, that physical CPU meter was in my queue of videos, just watched it. awesome
22:24:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgZEfExBBiY
22:25:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Is that thing actually measuring the current to the chip?
22:25:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't know
22:26:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, probably not
22:26:14 <Vorpal> because adding a meter there would probably upset the chip badly :P
22:26:19 <Vorpal> and be hard to fit too
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22:44:35 <lambdabot> forall a. (Eq a) => [a] -> [a] -> [a]
22:47:58 <newsham> > [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9] \\ [5,3,11]
23:02:08 <oerjan> grumble reddit is having one of those days
23:04:53 <oerjan> "502 Bad Gateway"? i guess that's more serious than the usual down message...