00:01:23 20:09:59: ehird____, well yes. But this would be an interesting new file sharing idea. Just share offset in pi 00:01:23 20:10:02: :P 00:01:23 20:10:10: compression too 00:01:23 Pictured: Vorpal doesn't understand information theory. 00:01:27 obviously a joke 00:01:52 Pictured: Vorpal doesn't understand jokes. 00:03:14 Phantom_Hoover, possibly 00:03:57 elliott_, anyway did you ever found the official reason 00:03:59 err 00:04:01 find* 00:06:02 Official reason for what? 00:09:27 Phantom_Hoover, for lack of rapture 00:09:55 hm volcano eruption 00:10:11 oerjan, where? 00:10:21 iceland 00:10:49 In other news: dog bites man. 00:10:53 but no need to worry, this one has a completely pronouncable name 00:11:08 oerjan, what is the name 00:12:12 Grimsvotn. 00:12:12 "including the main east-west road. " <-- this (from bbc) says something about the size of iceland 00:12:26 ah 00:12:32 yes easy to pronounce 00:12:38 *vötn 00:12:56 ah even easier 00:13:06 Although it's apparently under the Vatnajokull glacier, which is getting towards Ejafjallajokull levels. 00:13:23 Phantom_Hoover, jökull* 00:13:33 Vorpal, yesyesyes. 00:13:33 Eyjaf* 00:13:40 Deewiant, that too 00:13:50 Yes, OK, I was typing it quickly. 00:14:07 Phantom_Hoover, it makes a HUGE difference. Please transcribe it properly if you are not going to use the proper letters 00:14:37 Vorpal, no, it doesn't make a HUGE difference. 00:14:42 Phantom_Hoover, yes it does 00:14:43 You know what I goddamn meant. 00:15:02 Phantom_Hoover, oh if I hadn't it would have been an ENORMOUS difference 00:15:02 lol Vorpal has alphabet insecurity 00:15:05 it wasn't that 00:15:08 it was just HUGE 00:15:11 elliott_, XD 00:15:15 Vorpal, no, it's minuscule. 00:15:24 Phantom_Hoover, not at all 00:15:33 It's a misspelling, not a fundamental change. 00:15:35 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:15:44 Phantom_Hoover, at least it is a large difference, possibly even LARGE 00:15:55 Vorpal: nobody gives a shit, stfu 00:16:21 Vorpal, it's the same as advice vs. advise. 00:16:57 There is an even huger difference there: they are actually different words, but noöne actually *cares* if you confuse them because it's always clear from context. 00:20:47 Vorpal, it's the same as advice vs. advise. 00:20:54 hm that is larger indeed 00:21:16 Phantom_Hoover, though it can be larger than that in Nordic languages 00:21:28 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:21:52 länstrafiken ~ county traffic (company that operate buses). lanstrafiken ~ lance traffic 00:21:55 Phantom_Hoover, ^ 00:22:16 That doesn't hold a candle to English. 00:22:22 Phantom_Hoover, oh? 00:22:26 Consider tear vs. tear, or reading vs. Reading. 00:22:47 Phantom_Hoover, in the first case you spelled both the same way... 00:22:51 Although the latter is a place name and UK place names are notorious for their unpronounceability. 00:22:57 Vorpal, yes, exactly. 00:23:06 One is pronounced "teer", the other "tehr". 00:23:22 Surely you knew that? 00:23:25 Phantom_Hoover, which is an issue, even a related one, but a slightly different one 00:23:31 Phantom_Hoover, right you meant that one 00:23:55 how do you pronounce Reading? 00:24:06 Redding. 00:24:43 ah 00:24:45 Other amusing pronunciations are Worcester and Berkely. 00:24:56 (Wooster and Barkly, respectively.) 00:25:18 hah 00:25:32 Phantom_Hoover, I always wondered about Worcester 00:25:34 Or Gloucester (Gloster). 00:26:34 Phantom_Hoover, I presume these are due to changes in spelling / pronunciation over time? 00:27:03 Yes. pikhq_ probably knows details since he's all about random linguistic stuff 00:28:06 yesah 00:28:08 yeah* 00:28:18 And then there's the transliterated Gaelic and Irish, like Siobhan (Sheevohn). 00:29:26 Phantom_Hoover, where is that? Wales? 00:29:35 Ireland. 00:29:37 ah 00:29:44 well, I need to sleep, night 00:35:06 -!- elliott_ has set topic: let's put this into perspective. you put up with the puppet prostate because you love of wizards. -oscar wilde | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 00:35:55 That livestream sure is confusing. 00:36:13 that's wilde, always putting the finger on the relevant point 00:36:24 *his 00:36:38 angelanicole: he has his reasons for thinking today it will happen but I still believe only GOD knows 00:37:06 JesusIsCumming: VOTE FOR HOPE! VOTE FOR A RAPTURE OF FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY! GINGRICH 2012! 00:39:58 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 00:40:39 "May 21 is not over all over the Earth. When the whole Earth gets to May 22, then we might see things differently." 00:43:07 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:43:54 http://i.imgur.com/Fqzmn.png 00:44:04 OK Reddit, you have reached a new low. 00:44:12 You know that you can link to comments, right? 00:45:15 comments can be deleted 00:45:40 While imgur is writ fast in stone for all eternity? 00:48:49 no, but the person who can delete the imgur picture is presumably the person who posted the link 00:49:10 while any single one of the commenters could be a jerk and delete their comment 00:49:10 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 00:49:58 * oerjan now wonders if there is a DeletesAllHisComments novelty account 00:50:52 well not under that name 00:51:10 The world had ended, who is still alive? 00:51:32 variable, honestly, Rapture != end of the world. 00:51:34 checking... 00:51:42 yes that too 00:52:03 according to that recent prophecy, the end would be five months later iirc 00:52:17 Phantom_Hoover: I know. Its just when all the people go to heaven and the world ends a few months later or something like that 00:52:20 I mostly ignored it 00:53:30 imagine OCD hell. it's indistinguishable from heaven for a normal person, but every little detail is _slightly_ wrong 00:53:33 variable: well there were some earthquakes and two hundred million christians evaporated 00:53:46 oerjan: Insert joke-killing clarification about the nature of OCD here 00:54:14 elliott_: you just earned yourself a reservation there, kiddo 00:54:32 elliott_, it should be CDO. Sorted alphabetically. 00:55:29 Vorpal: haha 00:55:29 is it OCPD that is the light version 00:55:48 oerjan, what does that stand for? 00:55:53 Vorpal: P=personality 00:55:56 ah 00:56:02 oerjan: I think OCPD and OCD are unrelated disorders that are merely "similar" 00:56:40 i vaguely recall there was a quip about the difference 00:57:46 elliott_, it should be CDO. Sorted alphabetically. 00:58:14 Phantom_Hoover, yes? 00:58:17 Pictured here: Vorpal is only capable of copying and pasting done-to-death-jokes when he engages in any form of legitimate humour. 00:58:25 Pictured here: Vorpal is only capable of copying and pasting done-to-death-jokes when he engages in any form of legitimate humour. 00:58:28 Pictured: A caption. 00:58:46 Phantom_Hoover, wait a second. I thought of that one now. Though I guess someone else might have done it before 00:59:11 You... are actually bad enough at humour to reinvent that independently? 00:59:23 Are you a loaf of pre-sliced white bread. 00:59:41 elliott_, well, variable laughed above. So maybe it is you and Phantom_Hoover who are the issue here 01:00:10 Obviously 01:00:35 elliott_, I mean, you two are the only people I know who seem to react that way to my humour. 01:00:54 some else in this channel to some lesser degree 01:00:59 elsewhere, none 01:01:08 Vorpal: it's their OCPD, surely 01:01:20 oerjan, ... 01:01:31 * oerjan runs away cackling 01:02:13 Vorpal: have you considered that the only people who can stand you are the ones who have no sense of humour :) 01:02:34 also, i'm pretty sure that joke has been done before in this channel, while discussing the same subject 01:02:37 elliott_, that is a possible hypothesis yes 01:02:54 oerjan, possibly. I don't read everything in here. 01:03:22 Vorpal: it is also possible that you have, but have forgotten it. makes it _so_ much easier to reinvent things, i assume 01:03:30 anyway I think the CDO one was funny. But now it has been overanalysed. 01:03:34 there's a name for that phenomenon 01:03:41 but i've forgotten it, so let's call it the Hird phenomenon 01:03:59 elliott_, OCD? yes 01:04:00 :P 01:04:27 compulsif disordre obsessif 01:04:27 no, what oerjan said. 01:06:05 elliott_, forgetting things? Amnesia? 01:06:27 Vorpal: no, FFS 01:06:34 hearing something, forgetting it, then thinking it's your own invention 01:06:38 oh 01:06:49 elliott_, no clue what that is 01:06:54 forgetfulness forgetfulness syndrome 01:07:11 elliott_, lets invent a word for it! 01:07:13 then google it 01:07:23 but i've forgotten it, so let's call it the Hird phenomenon 01:07:32 oh right 01:08:08 elliott_, I was trying to joke about that we would hit the right name if we tried to invent it 01:08:33 google corrects it to third phenomenon, it seems 01:08:38 heh 01:09:39 "From The Culture of Matter to the Matter of Culture" 01:10:12 to the catter of multure 01:10:22 how elliottish 01:11:39 apparently it's a feminist text by myra hird 01:11:55 and paywalled 01:12:09 dat ho is a bitch and a whore 01:12:11 sorry what 01:12:11 "From The Culture of Matter to the Matter of Culture" 01:12:17 I remember reading that book. 01:12:18 Bit long. 01:12:36 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_%28novel%29 01:12:40 DISCUSS 01:13:06 I FIND THE GROWTH OF THE SECONDARY PLOT AND DIVERSION FROM THE APPARENT PRIMARY ONE MASTERFUL 01:13:28 ALSO: damn that nestworld was cool. 01:14:06 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 01:15:15 Stupid sleeping idiot. 01:15:17 Wait what. 01:15:53 HEY DOES ANYONE WANT TO PLAY W:A I'M BORED 01:19:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:19:18 -!- Vorpal has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 01:20:33 OBVIOUSLY NOT 01:21:19 obviously oerjan plays wa 01:26:26 ...oh god, someone wants me to make a Facebook wall-post download bot.. 01:26:31 wat 01:26:36 say no? :P 01:26:43 ..but they might pay me. :) 01:26:47 oh download 01:26:51 i thought you said like spambot :D 01:26:51 but like... that just sounds awful. 01:27:16 they have a bunch of wall posts they want to download off of their Facebook page. I'm pretty sure that requires some Javascript execution, but I'm not certain. 01:27:42 use one of the browser automation toolkits? 01:27:54 or even, just a bookmarklet of some sort 01:28:03 that redirects to a data: URI of an HTML page with all the downloaded posts 01:28:08 easy to click links w/ JS :) 01:28:16 apart from that it'd just be some jquery to select the elements 01:28:23 that's the path of least resistance, anyway 01:28:46 so... jquery, or browser automation, or bookmarklet... got it. 01:29:05 I was going to try rolling my own, but then I viewed page source for a Facebook page. The horror. 01:29:12 CakeProphet: jquery bookmarklet 01:29:15 that was a combined suggestion 01:29:18 ah.. 01:29:32 easy to click a "more" link with jquery, easy to find all wall posts on the page with jquery 01:29:37 then it's just building an html result page and using a data: uri 01:29:45 and all login etc. is handled for you by the user 01:29:56 elliott_: ah, yes using Javascript to traverse the DOM is probably the best solution, aside from an automation plugin of some kind. 01:30:40 Excellent. Thank you for the suggestion. :) 01:31:03 yeah, you'll still need to click all the "more" links first though, since there's a limited number per page :) 01:31:11 -!- ajf has changed nick to ajf|offline. 01:31:55 elliott_: didn't you say jquery could handle that though? 01:32:05 well, jquery just makes the dom manipulation a bit less tedious 01:32:10 right. 01:32:19 and clicking a link and waiting for more elements to appear is certainly dom manipulation :) 01:32:24 so as long as I can find the right element then I can "click" on it. 01:33:45 elliott_: so this would just be a standalone script that just loads a DOM and then uses jquery with it? 01:33:58 CakeProphet: No, just make it a bookmarklet (javascript: URI) 01:34:03 to run on the page 01:34:03 aaah 01:34:07 that works. 01:34:18 ...though, that will be a massive URI. :P 01:34:40 Well, yeah; minify the javascript first :P 01:34:55 CakeProphet: The data: URI result pages will be massive too. 01:34:57 But Firefox can cope with that. 01:35:01 If they use IE, kill yourself. 01:35:07 lol 01:35:16 Chrome should be fine too I imagine 01:35:20 Yeah. 01:35:35 so how does minification work exactly? 01:35:37 magic? 01:35:48 Just renames variables, does some minor code compression, things like that 01:35:54 oh okay. 01:36:04 Removes whitespace :P 01:36:05 -!- calamari has joined. 01:37:22 elliott_: okay, so what if they don't want a result page, but instead want all of the files in a directory? I could just save the result page right? 01:37:37 Well, is this for them to use directly, or do they just want the end result? 01:37:42 (I'm assuming they're not going to know how that works, so I'll probably have to do it for them) 01:37:52 Yeah, you could just Ctrl+S it and zip it up. 01:37:55 I imagine they just want the end result. 01:37:59 Well, no need for zipping, it'll be one file. 01:38:11 You might want to include the Facebook CSS and have their profile image there to make it look more like the "real thing". 01:38:19 elliott_: stupid question, actually. I know what I'll do. 01:38:36 CakeProphet: I take it you're not archiving comments and the like too? 01:38:39 That'd be a pain 01:38:40 elliott_: nah I don't think they care, but that would be super fancy. 01:39:00 What'll you do :P 01:39:00 elliott_: no from my understanding it's just particular things they've linked or uploaded or... something. 01:39:09 God knows. 01:39:18 People who use Facebook are weird. :p 01:39:19 yeah I'll need to talk to the person in question. 01:39:57 God W:A is a good game. 01:40:09 they apparently want to make a book out of something.. so... maybe they have a bunch of "notes"? That would make things easier. 01:40:17 they sound weird. 01:40:21 LIKE EVERYONE WHO USES FACEBOOK 01:40:38 CakeProphet: To be honest, you could even just click the more link a bunch of times manually and then Ctrl+S their Facebook page :-) 01:40:51 haha, then do some good old find. 01:41:06 ...but God, I'd have to click that at least 100 times. 01:42:25 Oh my god just place the fucking girder jesus 01:42:55 anyways, talk to you later. 01:44:16 Hi, CakeProphet. 01:48:23 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 02:07:00 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:07:45 Sgeo: wanna play w:a 02:07:49 ? 02:10:16 hmm 02:12:42 qwerty 02:15:40 and a qwerty morning to you too 02:16:42 Sgeo is SO UNSURE about playing Worms 02:17:33 squirming around, is he? 02:19:12 19:32:29: Apologies for the crudeness, but I just misread Deewiant's comment as "combinatorial explosion of testicles". That sounded painful. 02:19:58 Sgeo: I'm playing with an idiot and he types in all-caps and plays terribly halp. 02:20:10 elliott_, and I'd be better/ 02:20:48 Sgeo: well you don't type in all-caps. 02:22:36 oerjan: hmm, can /any/ CPS core language be fully lazy? I think not, since you'd need all functions to start with "k ...", which, in CPS form, would only apply to functions that return a literal directly 02:24:06 Dangit I accidentally /cleared 02:24:35 how do you accidentally /clear and why does it matter 02:25:30 monqy: you typo / then c then l then e then a then r then enter 02:26:53 oerjan: although a cps language does have several benefits as far as efficient machine code goes... :( 02:27:37 * oerjan knoweth not 02:27:54 also, http://www.theonion.com/articles/nation-down-to-last-hundred-grownups,20491/ 02:28:21 oerjan: you're just saying "knoweth not" to get me to shut up :D 02:28:36 elliott_ knoweth too much 02:29:23 Sgeo: y/n 02:29:28 l 02:29:31 what 02:29:36 Better yet, / 02:29:48 will you just answer :p 02:29:54 m 02:30:02 with either y or n 02:30:15 ñ 02:30:24 I take it "either/or" in English is XOR? 02:30:33 it's OR, isn't it 02:30:39 hmm 02:30:42 Sgeo: ok but seriously y or n 02:31:01 y 02:31:44 finally :P 02:31:49 wormnet? 02:32:21 Hold on 02:32:28 Hmm, maybe I should use a snooper instead 02:32:32 Of opening W:A 02:32:35 AUT Y AUT N AUT NIHIL 02:32:38 elliott_: btw. Ben Laurie of Google has an excellent explanation of what I found to be wrong with BitCoin 02:32:38 Oh can' t host that way 02:33:01 Sgeo: You also can't play that way. 02:33:03 I know a while ago I mentioned disliking it but didn't have time to defend myself. BenL is doing a great job IMHO 02:33:14 Sgeo: I'm not sure what compelled you to consider that. 02:33:18 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 02:33:47 variable: I haven't done anything with BitCoin for quite a while; maybe I'll check it out later 02:34:19 elliott_: I only mention it now because when I first brought it you you disliked the fact that I didn't defend my dislike 02:34:32 and I found someone who happens to be doing the job for me ;-) 02:34:53 Sgeo: I've created a game 02:34:58 unless you want to host 02:34:58 So did i 02:35:10 I though we we're going to do hard tube trap 02:35:16 were we ok 02:35:17 Joinmejoinme 02:36:17 'or, not both' is the shortest unambiguous XOR I can think of 02:36:24 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:36:26 or 'exactly one of' 02:36:43 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 02:41:53 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:44:26 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:44:48 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 02:47:58 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .). 02:51:24 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:51:38 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 02:56:36 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:03:28 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 03:05:31 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:05:43 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 03:18:13 -!- sebbu has joined. 03:18:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 03:18:13 -!- sebbu has joined. 03:18:42 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:21:17 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:23:38 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 03:23:38 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:23:58 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 03:24:26 -!- jix has quit (Quit: leaving). 03:51:32 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 03:51:32 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host). 03:51:32 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 03:57:43 -!- ralc has joined. 04:03:40 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:04:11 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 04:05:11 Earth to elliott_ 04:05:44 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:05:50 Sgeo: what 04:06:08 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 04:08:04 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:11:16 -!- ralc has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:13:08 oerjan: hey i need some more curryrelated help ;D 04:13:14 fixp :: (Double -> Double -> Double) -> Shiro () 04:13:15 fixp f = binary (floor . (*10000) . f . (/10000) . fromIntegral) 04:13:17 /both/ values have to be divided 04:13:20 and f takes two arguments 04:13:21 sooooo 04:14:40 you know making things pointfree is much easier for me if i can start with a correct version which is _not_ pointfree 04:15:18 than from a broken pointfree version 04:15:47 (\a b -> floor (10000 * f ((fromIntegral a)/10000) (same shit for b))))))))) 04:16:42 i see 04:18:11 :t ((floor . (*10000)) .) . (?f `on` ((/10000) . fromIntegral)) 04:18:12 forall b a a1 a2. (RealFrac a, Integral b, ?f::a1 -> a1 -> a, Fractional a1, Integral a2) => a2 -> a2 -> b 04:19:07 looks promising 04:19:53 so ugly :( 04:20:07 well hm 04:20:17 > (0$0 `on`) 04:20:18 The operator `Data.Function.on' [infixl 0] of a section 04:20:18 must have lowe... 04:20:26 ic 04:20:43 :t ((floor . (*10000)) .) . ?f `on` ((/10000) . fromIntegral) 04:20:43 forall b a a1 a2. (RealFrac a, Integral b, ?f::a1 -> a1 -> a, Fractional a1, Integral a2) => a2 -> a2 -> b 04:20:50 -!- AerobicRobot has joined. 04:21:29 oerjan: that scares me :D 04:21:48 what, removing the parentheses? 04:21:59 yes 04:24:03 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:24:19 -!- AerobicRobot has quit (Client Quit). 04:25:49 yawn 04:27:16 Yeah 04:27:18 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 04:28:07 oerjan: i guess that version is ok :P 04:28:32 elliott_, should we quit? 04:28:42 i should sleep soon 04:29:03 oh hm wait 04:29:07 oerjan: i actualyl only need an unary version 04:29:32 B(n -- arccos(b)) 04:29:34 spot the error :D 04:30:01 the -- ? 04:31:44 no 04:31:50 that's a stack thing 04:31:51 not haskell 04:32:25 shiro: Negative exponent 04:32:25 sigh 04:32:25 ...what's with this being cryptic lately :P 04:32:29 how do you catch "error"s 04:32:32 oerjan: um im just lazy and tired 04:32:50 using Control.Exception, i think 04:33:08 they're not IOExceptions, right? 04:33:12 nope 04:33:55 what kind are they ;D 04:34:08 do i look like i've ever used them... 04:34:10 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:34:28 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 04:34:49 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Client Quit). 04:35:56 oerjan: obviously 04:38:29 you'd imagine ErrorCall would be related 04:39:20 oerjan: i think i'll bug you about core forms instead, before i go to bed 04:41:20 oerjan: hey oerjan 04:41:22 oerjan: core forms 04:41:32 whatever that is 04:41:43 oerjan: like um core language things 04:41:45 i guess 04:41:46 cps won't work 04:41:52 hmm 04:41:54 unless 04:43:13 (f x = g (ha x) (hb x)) --> f = \x|k. k (\|k. ha x (\hax. k ...........)) 04:43:14 dojghgd 04:43:16 that won't work 04:44:04 ...is that some strange hybrid of lambda and ski calculus 04:45:36 no, | was denoting a continuation argument 04:45:49 I was thinking that you could do CPS if you just returned /immediately/ with a thunk 04:45:57 and that thunk would then do one CPS-step when called, and return another thunk, etc. 04:46:04 but that actually just sounds stupid in retrospect. 04:48:05 hey oerjan should i go to// bed 04:48:50 ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZz what? 04:49:28 sometimes i feel like oerjan doesn't take these conversations seriously. 04:50:06 especially when tired 04:50:28 haven't you just woken up or something 04:50:29 or do you mean me 04:50:39 no, i'm about to sleep soon 04:56:36 hmm 04:56:40 thats kind of a weird idea, maybe i should too? 04:56:43 nah 04:56:45 sound sstupid 04:56:56 hey oerjan 04:57:00 happy rapture 04:57:02 anniversary 04:57:06 raptureversary 04:57:57 sappy capture 04:58:17 crapture 04:59:16 On Saturday morning, Espinoza, 60, received a phone call from her father, Harold Camping, the 89-year-old Oakland preacher who has spent some $100 million — and countless hours on his radio and TV show — announcing May 21 as Judgment Day. "He just said, 'I'm a little bewildered that it didn't happen, but it's still May 21 [in the United States],'" Espinoza said, standing in the doorway of her Alameda home. "It's going to be May 21 from now until m 04:59:16 idnight." 04:59:19 wow, he actually believed it 04:59:57 ?tell Vorpal http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-rapture-20110522,0,5118540.story 04:59:57 Consider it noted. 05:01:11 oerjan: what time is it over there in new zealand dude?? 05:01:14 arent you guys like upsdie down 05:02:02 umop ap!sdn ueaw noh 05:02:29 hon waeu nds pa domu 05:02:32 is that maori 05:02:52 aqhew 05:03:17 wehqa 05:03:27 <- pooj 05:03:44 joop yourself 05:35:24 DAMMIT 05:35:43 I was looking at a Homestruck video on YouTube (stupid I know) 05:35:57 And just saw a major spoiler in the thumbnail of another video 05:36:58 "Homestruck" lol 05:55:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 05:55:57 -!- elliott_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:00:00 Took 500 mg Tylenol. 06:00:54 thanks 06:09:20 It's for me that I write that, not you 06:16:01 The Salvation War sounds fun 06:19:23 The reviews on TV Tropes aren't that great 06:33:33 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 06:36:35 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:07:02 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 07:07:36 -!- aloril has joined. 07:18:44 Some apocalypse. 07:20:38 the apocaplyse isn't until october, remember? 07:20:55 Oh, right, just the *rapture*. 07:21:11 And *arguably* there's still 4 hours 40 minutes left for it to happen. 07:21:27 (May 22, 2011 is 4 hours away in UTC-12) 07:21:49 (no human habitations are in UTC-12) 07:22:04 I plan on being asleep for that 07:22:31 My Rapture-but-not-May-21st believing friend is still here 07:23:03 What evidence does your friend have for the idea of the rapture? 07:23:13 does anyone still believe in rapture yesterday 07:23:14 Beyond citing the Bible, which is a load of bullshit. 07:23:34 monqy: Harold Camping still has a few more hours until he can give up on it. 07:24:00 monqy: May 21 has yet to end in a handful of time zones. 07:24:14 Harold Camping has yet to be heard from 07:24:15 rapture happened and I'm just dreaming 07:26:03 Crap 07:26:13 HC doesn't get any money from me listening to the station, does he? 07:27:01 are you listening to the station 07:27:40 Sgeo: No, they run on donations. 07:27:52 So long as you don't hand them money, you're good. 07:28:08 Ok, good 07:28:31 I still want to unspoil myself from Homestuck 07:35:10 https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Today%27s_featured_article/May_22,_2011 :D 07:53:19 http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/hgsvd/the_creepiest_motherson_relationship_on_youtube/ I wanted to sleep. Now I doubt I will. Fuuuck. 07:54:59 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:55:11 I'll never sleep again 07:56:41 freenode: 39846 channels and nothing on 07:56:59 cheater897, they've all been taken in the Rapture. We're the only ones left. 07:58:25 0great 07:58:38 * cheater897 goes to inhabit the prez suite at the local Hilton 07:59:51 "Provides evidence from archaeology, [...], and even the Bible itself!" -- on how to know the Bible is true 08:01:25 at least they're honest about it: http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/epic-fail-photos-oddly-specific-keeping-pulling-that-wool.jpg 08:02:13 Sgeo: Heck, not even one of the most memorable and publicised events in the Old Testament has any evidence for it... 08:02:20 Sgeo: There is literally no evidence of the Exodus. 08:02:57 To Christians, that probably doesn't seem like *that* huge of a deal (a bit upsetting, but not earth-shattering). 08:03:20 I remember reading something suggesting that ancestors of the Jews were oppressors in Egypt, and were pushed out? 08:03:33 Also, to Jews, Exodus not being real would be... u 08:03:34 To Jews, that's like saying "Yeah, sorry, there's no evidence of the Holocaust. Seriously, we checked." 08:04:08 Yeah 08:04:55 (except for the veracity of the claim, of course. There's metric fucktons of evidence for the Holocaust.) 08:05:15 My mom: "If there is no God, who parted the Red Sea?" 08:05:22 (a long time ago) 08:05:28 *sigh* 08:06:27 Well, since the Exodus didn't happen (near as we can tell, the Jewish people have pretty much been in Israel since they started leaving artifacts), clearly nobody did. 08:06:43 Note: Dead people do not become perfect in every way after they die. My step-mom keeps using "Your mom would have wanted you to XYZ" to try to get me to XYZ 08:07:06 I'm pretty sure she's wrong about what my mom would have wanted, but even if not, how does that make a difference to whether I agree with XYZ or not? 08:07:11 That's some damned poor reasoning. Not to mention in *very poor taste*. 08:07:48 Yeah 08:07:57 Why not exhume your mom's body and use it as a puppet? About as tasteless and macabre, IMO. 08:08:58 ... Oh, wait, some people have done similar things. Fuck. Fuck humanity so much. 08:09:27 is necrophilia close enough 08:09:42 I was thinking of the Cadaver Synod, actually. 08:10:13 Where a pope put his predecessor on trial. By exhuming the body. 08:10:25 mmmm 08:11:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_posthumous_executions ooh 08:11:50 Fuck, Homo sapiens. You scary. 08:11:51 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 08:12:35 Hey, Homo sapiens can be awesome sometimes 08:12:59 We eradicated two diseases. 08:13:16 Yes, it has moments of genuine awesomeness and genuine horrificness. 08:16:30 "If you think you may have been exposed to smallpox, contact your health care provider immediately." 08:17:07 Ok, I pulled that out of context 08:17:16 "If you think you may have been exposed to smallpox, contact your health care provider immediately. Because smallpox has been wiped out this would be very unlikely, unless you have worked with the virus in a laboratory or there has been an act of bioterrorism." 08:18:20 I wouldn't contact my health care provider. 08:18:27 I'd contact the CDC. 08:18:44 And probably the local police dispatch. 08:19:31 invite everyone you want to die to your home for a big party 08:20:03 or a small party 08:20:04 both work 08:24:56 Ok, this is a beautiful melody 08:24:59 And no lyrics so far 08:25:07 As A Deer by Carol McClure 08:25:18 (Note: Probably a Christian song.. I'd assume 08:25:19 ) 08:25:42 Almost certainly. An adaptation of the psalm, no doubt. 08:27:34 Still no lyrics 08:27:56 Didn't realize there was a psalm 08:29:18 Psalm 42. 08:31:38 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 08:37:17 * Sgeo slaps the SAB person 08:37:28 Someone should really just write some code to make his life easier 08:37:36 "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." 08:37:36 According to Conservapedia's Conservative Bible Project, Jesus never said these words. They are a liberal coruption of the text. "This quotation is a favorite of liberals but should not appear in a conservative Bible." 23:34 08:37:40 http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/interp/by_book.html 08:37:44 That's in the wrong book 08:46:55 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:52:17 Sgeo: the skeptics annotated bible sometimes chalcs things up to be errors that aren't 08:52:37 *chalks 08:52:41 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:53:08 -!- sebbu has joined. 08:53:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 08:53:08 -!- sebbu has joined. 08:54:39 -!- augur has joined. 08:59:45 -!- Vorpal has joined. 09:02:41 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 09:06:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:19:39 -!- ajf|offline has changed nick to ajf. 09:24:41 -!- ajf has changed nick to ajfafk. 09:29:06 -!- cheater897 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:44:56 -!- olsner_ has joined. 09:49:31 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:49:31 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 09:49:31 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:52:47 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:54:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:13:13 -!- olsner_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:29:27 -!- Patashu has joined. 10:29:49 -!- Tritonio has joined. 10:36:58 Phantom_Hoover, feel free to slap me 10:37:17 * Phantom_Hoover slaps Sgeo more on principle than any feelings of malice. 10:37:17 Phantom_Hoover: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 10:46:33 OMG the 2011 Lyttle Lytton results are out. 10:55:32 '“My heart medication!” slowly remembered Dwayne, but his lateness was a stark reality.' 10:55:45 The mangled sentences are always good for a laugh. 10:56:49 'Mongoose-to-cobra, two serpentine forms, he was my rival; are we fighting in these holes, or are we really making love?' 10:56:52 WHO KNOWS 11:02:39 "The intruder attempted to break down the reinforced door with his axe, shouting phrases like “We will get our revenge!”, “Revenge!” and “Blood!”" — WP 11:03:29 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:06:52 "Her cheeks were rosy and so was my love — bursting with fragrance and softness." 11:06:59 Metaphor slippage! 11:07:29 Haha 11:07:36 This is the purple prose award? 11:07:48 No. 11:08:18 Bulwer-Lytton is the one that rewards overtly purple prose, and is as such horrendously verbose and dreary to read. 11:08:47 The Lyttle Lytton is restricted to 30 words, so the scope for purpleness is reduced vastly. 11:08:53 Aaag 11:09:53 Most of the ones that rely on language just have really weird sentence structure. 11:10:11 There used to be a category for it, but I think he dropped it. 11:10:22 '“Shame on you,” he scorns at you in anger, “Shame!”' 11:10:24 Scorns! 11:10:53 * Phantom_Hoover scorns at Sgeo "what did you do to merit me slapping you, BtW?" 11:11:13 Patashu, also, that example was from an English textbook/ 11:11:22 Accidentally glimpse at a major Homestuck spoiler 11:11:39 From a textbook, not from a student? 11:11:48 Yep. 11:11:54 Cited as a good example of imagery. 11:36:40 -!- ralc has joined. 12:14:47 -!- ajfafk has changed nick to ajf. 12:20:05 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .). 12:21:22 Sgeo, where are you now at Homestuck. 12:21:27 Also, which spoiler. 12:29:25 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12249363 12:29:29 O.o 12:42:56 -!- f0reest has joined. 12:43:00 -!- f0reest has quit (Client Quit). 13:06:18 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 13:09:37 -!- Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:26:44 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:00:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:02:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:02:53 Oh god my cat seems to have heard some birds outside the window. 14:03:00 I see the murder in his eyes. 14:04:07 It's for me that I write that, not you 14:04:19 #esoteric: Sgeo's personal drug diary 14:10:13 https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Today%27s_featured_article/May_22,_2011 :D 14:10:26 certainly looks like someone took a little jab, there 14:15:50 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:24:57 Patashu, also, that example was from an English textbook/ 14:25:27 wait are you performing a lyttle lytton analogue to poe's law/turing test here 14:32:28 #esoteric: Sgeo's personal drug diary <-- I can't imagine Sgeo's father allowing him to use drugs ;P 14:32:28 Vorpal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 14:32:56 huh 14:45:57 Vorpal: the word "drug" in english includes legal pharmaceuticals 14:46:05 in this case, tylenol 14:47:25 of the kind that sgeo's father might very well allow, being afair a medical doctor 14:47:41 -> 14:48:52 -!- olsner has joined. 14:59:20 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 15:06:27 wait are you performing a lyttle lytton analogue to poe's law/turing test here 15:06:44 No, the Found category is a long-established Lyttle Lytton tradition. 15:20:02 Vorpal: the word "drug" in english includes legal pharmaceuticals <-- oh right 15:21:50 Vorpal: aka "dödsknark" 15:24:55 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Daemon escaped from pentagram). 15:31:33 olsner, what? 15:31:43 olsner, not familiar with that expression 15:32:13 Vorpal: alla sorters droger, knark och medicin är dödsknark 15:32:16 bara rent allmänt 15:32:22 olsner, slang? 15:32:28 japp 15:32:31 aha 15:32:56 olsner, jag umgås nog inte i sådana kretsar. :P 15:47:57 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:56:15 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:16:18 -!- elliott has joined. 16:16:29 hello 16:16:29 elliott: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 16:16:57 two of those are from days ago lol 16:17:01 a week even 16:20:05 -!- monqy has joined. 16:28:31 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:34:47 elliott, weird 16:39:31 hmm, amusing spambot name (that just emailed me): globalfreedomreliableloanfirm 16:41:40 heh 16:42:43 sounds legit 16:44:11 -!- olsner has joined. 16:45:25 I don't particularly want a loan right now, legit or not 16:52:26 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:52:35 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:54:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:00:48 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:01:41 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:05:12 -!- ralc has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:15:37 -!- augur has joined. 17:30:40 "So far GNU Parallel has been focused on 17:30:40 replacing a single for-loop. The Pakistan release introduces ways to 17:30:40 replace nested loops." 17:30:42 SO ADVANCED 17:36:04 GNU Parallel is actually fairly nice. 17:41:41 grr, there are two competing adblocks for chrome 17:42:31 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:43:08 What, are they doing the ash cloud thing *again*? 17:43:08 Use AdBlock Plus. 17:43:32 pikhq: But that's just a renamed AdThwart, and the plain AdBlock is more popular. 17:43:38 I mean, sure, brand name and all, but still. 17:44:18 -!- pingveno has joined. 17:44:40 Neither of them can block ads in flash videos, though. 17:44:55 I thought that was recently made sort of possible. 17:45:17 Mainly I'm pissed off at interstitials and the ads /before/ videos (the ones that pop up are annoying but not nearly as much). 17:45:27 I guess the latter are a kind of interstitial too. 17:46:06 anyone remembers how you minimise boolean expressions for NOR gates? I can only remember how you do it for NAND gates, not NOR gates 17:47:07 What, are they doing the ash cloud thing *again*? <-- yeah it was such a hit last time! 17:47:43 pikhq: Any actual arguments in favour of the Plus one? :-P 17:47:59 elliott: Eh, just use Firefox. :P 17:48:26 pikhq: I just stopped using Firefox yet again because it starts to freeze up terribly when you have hundreds of tabs with JS and sometimes Flash running in them. 17:48:31 Thanks but no thanks. 17:48:37 But I need to fly tomorrow and back next Saturday. :/ (Tomorrow doesn't seem to be a problem yet, but who knows about Sat.) 17:48:38 Bleck. 17:48:52 fizzie, to where? 17:49:26 To Praguel 17:49:30 Praguel. 17:49:30 s/l/./ 17:49:37 QWERTY user detected :P 17:49:39 El Praguel. 17:49:42 ah 17:49:45 Pwaggle. 17:49:46 anyone remembers how you minimise boolean expressions for NOR gates? I can only remember how you do it for NAND gates, not NOR gates 17:49:48 I guess no? 17:49:50 anyone remembers how you minimise boolean expressions for NOR gates? I can only remember how you do it for NAND gates, not NOR gates 17:49:52 I guess no? 17:50:21 elliott, I mean, no one replied, I'll try to find that textbook I have on this sort of thing 17:50:44 elliott, I mean, no one replied, I'll try to find that textbook I have on this sort of thing 17:51:01 (There's http://www.icassp2011.com/ in El Praguel next week.) 17:51:21 elliott, why are you echoing me? 17:51:26 elliott, why are you echoing me? 17:51:30 ( anyone remembers how you minimise boolean expressions for NOR gates? I can only remember how you do it for NAND gates, not NOR gates) 17:51:31 oh come on 17:51:37 ( anyone remembers how you minimise boolean expressions for NOR gates? I can only remember how you do it for NAND gates, not NOR gates) 17:51:43 this is silly 17:51:50 fizzie: Are you going to finally admit to them that speech recognition is useless? 17:51:57 And you've wasted your life? 17:52:09 THOUGHT SO 17:52:10 elliott: Not quite. 17:52:13 Oh. 17:52:43 * pikhq wonders why Apple's blocks don't let you copy the block into arbitrary memory at all... 17:53:03 The library manages the heap, with no option for you to hook into it. 17:53:15 Making it impossible to do garbage-collected blocks. 17:54:24 oh right, you want it on PS-form, then double invert. oh well 17:56:55 anyone know a good tool for simplification of boolean expressions? 17:57:16 I guess ghdl could perhaps be abused for it, if it does simplification 17:57:26 Wolfram Alpha :-P 17:57:45 elliott, yes but how do you get it to give you something on NOR-NOR form 17:58:02 Dunno :P 17:58:18 There's http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/ref/BooleanConvert.html 17:58:24 *looks* 17:58:25 And "X in Y form" invokes it in W|A, it seems. 17:58:43 Hmm, there is also http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/ref/BooleanMinimize.html 17:58:49 I have mathematica so.. 17:58:58 Try BooleanMinimize then. 17:58:59 yay 17:59:02 Not that it's a "hard" task. :p 17:59:02 elliott, perfect! 17:59:14 elliott, hard task to do by hand? no indeed 17:59:51 elliott, but for 7 output signals and 4 input signals to each it is quite tedious. Especially if you want to try each in NOR-NOR and NAND-NAND to figure out which one is smallest 18:00:22 (I'm planning out a 7-segment display in MC) 18:00:46 I mean, writing a program to do it. 18:00:52 oh right 18:01:12 elliott, I may need it anyway since I'd like to ignore all values above 9 for input. Easy to do when doing it by hand 18:01:53 or I guess the third form of it does that 18:03:26 ah for BooleanFunction there is " * Elements of inputs and outputs can also include any number of , representing "don't cares"." 18:03:44 perfect 18:04:14 You mean... a built-in Mathematica function does EXACTLY what you want? 18:04:18 That's a new one. 18:04:37 elliott, was that sarcasm? 18:04:42 No. 18:04:55 elliott, but yes as far as I can tell from the docs it does exactly what I want 18:05:00 elliott, was that sarcasm? 18:05:19 Lymia: No. 18:05:25 elliott, but was that sarcasm? 18:05:28 Yes. 18:05:42 elliott, but was that last line sarcasm? 18:05:45 I N C E P T I O N 18:05:53 Phantom_Hoover, I was waiting for that. 18:05:57 Phantom_Hoover: Lame. 18:06:02 elliott, naturally. 18:06:03 And what elliott said. 18:06:19 I N C E P T I O N <-- I don't get it. Is this some new meme? 18:06:23 I seen it in a few places 18:06:24 Vorpal: it's quite an old meme 18:06:26 No, it's an old meme. 18:06:28 ais523, oh, okay 18:06:34 Hence lameness. 18:06:39 ais523, why has it cropped up a lot recently then hm 18:06:42 I just couldn't resist, though. 18:06:42 It was lame on about its third use, tbh. 18:06:43 Vorpal: It hasn't. 18:06:47 Vorpal: wtf, how can you not know about that meme? 18:06:49 Or else you just started reading reddit or something. 18:06:56 hm 18:07:00 so what is that meme about 18:07:04 a film 18:07:09 ah I see 18:07:28 (The morale of the film is that recursion blows idiots' minds.) 18:07:34 [asterisk]moral, I think. 18:08:12 WormNet sucks. 18:08:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:15:18 The United States' bicycle path network is the patchiest thing in existence. 18:16:00 It's patchier than the discrete topological space of all ordinal numbers in the von Neumann universe of an inaccessible cardinal. 18:16:23 It's patchier than Windows on the Tuesday after a critical exploit is revealed. 18:17:32 Its sidewalks aren't much better. 18:18:26 Yeah, what's up with the lack of sidewalks along some roads? 18:19:10 Americans don't walk, so they don't bother designing to allow Americans to walk, so Americans don't walk. 18:19:35 To be fair, there are some places where people are simply unlikely to walk. 18:20:21 The whole of American urban design is pedestrian-unfriendly. 18:21:09 In large part because of the very, very low population density created by it. 18:21:36 I guess the US is pretty sparse. 18:21:54 tswett, says the Australian. 18:22:08 wat 18:22:08 Australian? Where? 18:22:23 Really, guys, this running gag has gone on too long. 18:22:26 I'm actually Finnish. 18:22:39 Nice try, Australian. 18:22:57 Nice try, you... NATIONALITY LIAR. 18:23:35 Wait is tswett not Australian. 18:23:41 I thought he was Australian. 18:23:44 I'm Finnish. 18:23:46 tswett: Let me put it this way: if I were to start driving east, I'd reach the next major city in 9 hours. 18:23:47 I'm totally Finnish. 18:24:02 pikhq: from where you are right now? 18:24:04 elliott, I'm afraid that BooleanMinimize didn't do quite what I wanted however 18:24:05 Yes. 18:24:26 Driving *west*, it'd be all of 15 minutes. 18:24:33 Are you... in the United States right now? 18:24:37 pikhq, hey, that's only about twice the time it takes for me to move a total distance of... 18:24:38 Yes. 18:24:44 Hm. Neat. 18:25:15 tswett: Do you have running water over there in Australia? 18:25:21 OK Google maps why don't you let me know distances as the crow flies. 18:25:36 elliott: I get my water from a well. 18:25:38 Phantom_Hoover: because crows have no sense of direction. 18:25:42 tswett: Your internet, too? 18:25:53 It's really easy to access the groundwater, since it just falls out. 18:25:54 pikhq, 172 miles along the roads. 18:25:57 Just drop an Ethernet cable down the well and hook it up to your computer. 18:26:05 No, our Internet comes from cables. 18:26:10 Oh. 18:26:20 We have a bunch of cables in our basement or something. They make the Internet. 18:26:30 Phantom_Hoover: Wow, that would take me like 2 or 3 hours. 18:27:03 Well, there's an intermittent ferry stop. 18:27:08 And I would not be able to leave the state. 18:27:56 Looks like if you were to drive north from where I am now, you'd reach the next major city... never. 18:28:04 3 hours would take me to the west coast and a bit along it. 18:28:13 Unless Sault Ste. Marie is a major city. 18:28:31 Driving north, I could get to the next major city in about an hour and a half... 18:28:54 And past that, I'd reach the north fucking pole before hitting a major city again. 18:29:09 * tswett looks at Sault Ste. Marie on a map and is amused. 18:29:48 (I wouldn't even be able to hit a major city in Canada, as what's north of me there is Saskatchewan, the Northwest Territories, and Nunavut) 18:29:56 elliott, btw BooleanFunction didn't quite what I expected, the BooleanFunction[vars] form took the list of values starting from 111... rather than from 000... 18:30:36 tswett, how are you American. 18:30:40 You're Australian dammit. 18:30:56 Yes, you could drive north from Denver and not hit a major city ever. 18:31:06 No, I'm definitely Finnish. 18:31:18 Vittu. 18:31:20 See? 18:31:21 Phantom_Hoover: If I became Australian would that make you more happy? 18:31:41 elliott, g'day mate! 18:31:50 Depending on how you define 'major', I could probably drive any direction other than west and never reach a major city. 18:31:52 That's 39° of driving. 18:32:00 Vorpal: obviously I mean indigenous. 18:32:05 Phantom_Hoover: I'm allowing some latitude for directions, actually. 18:32:17 elliott, oh 18:32:29 OBVIOUSLY 18:32:40 Though I suppose I could go approx. northwest or northeast and hit Chicago or Seattle. 18:32:46 pikhq, does a population of 200,000 count as major for you? 18:33:15 Phantom_Hoover, to me that would be rather large 18:33:16 22 hours to Seattle, 16 to Chicago. 18:33:19 cities are agents of flour and ice 18:33:35 * Phantom_Hoover → food 18:34:03 Phantom_Hoover: That's not a terribly large city. 18:34:20 I suppose it could? 18:34:49 Vorpal: I'm in a city of 600,000 and I consider it small. 18:35:06 pikhq, oh my 18:35:14 pikhq, major city would be >100,000 to me 18:36:05 pikhq, what do you count as major then 18:36:45 >=million? 18:36:46 Oh, I suppose 500,000+ could barely count as "major". Though the ones people actually think of are going to be at least 1,000,000+. 18:36:57 Our largest city has a population of 588941, so... (Though seriously you can count the whole Helsinki/Espoo/Vantaa region as a one "place", which then barely manages to clear the million-people mark.) 18:37:13 Scandinavia is sparsely-populated? REALLY??????? 18:37:13 ZOMG 18:37:30 pikhq, if you go for 1,000,000+... Sweden has exactly one major city 18:37:34 Also, I consider city size to be more a matter of metropolitan region size. 18:38:11 (because city boundaries tend to be completely and utterly arbitrary and have nothing to do with what the urban area is) 18:38:32 Vorpal: Sounds right to me. 18:38:54 For instance, the city of Denver has 600,000, but the metro area has 2.5 million. 18:39:30 pikhq, for the one million inhabitants city of Sweden (Stockholm) that would include suburbs. 18:39:41 And the city of New York has 8.1 million, but the metro area has 18.8 million. 18:39:45 I guess that is what you mean with metro area 18:39:49 Vorpal: Yeah. 18:39:53 Yay, in that case we have a single major city too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Helsinki 18:41:07 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm lists three population figures: "City" 851155, "Urban" 1252020 and "Metro" 2063945. 18:41:12 ! (a \[Nor] b \[Nor] ! c \[Nor] d) 18:41:14 huh 18:41:22 that is a weird way to write it out when I copy it 18:41:28 fizzie: "Metro" counts the suburbs surrounding it. 18:41:38 Vorpal: It's so it can reconstruct the original expression. 18:41:42 (Mathematica expressions aren't plain text.) 18:41:45 "Urban" is just the single urban area. 18:42:00 "City" is the population within the legal notion of "the city of Stockholm". 18:42:05 Uh. 18:42:05 elliott, well, anyway, it is also a weird way to write the whole thing out. I would have written it as (a+b+c'+d)' or such 18:42:12 Is that !(a nor b nor !c nor d)? 18:42:19 Lymia, I'm not sure 18:42:37 wait hm 18:42:42 The distinction is especially comical in the case of London. 18:42:43 Lymia: what else would it be? 18:42:50 Vorpal: Well it can't just use something that looks "nice" since it has to have global meaning. 18:42:54 Lymia, I think it must be (a'+b+c'+d)' 18:42:54 tswett, weird. 18:42:54 Isn't ' a string in Mathematica? Maybe not. 18:42:57 You replaced "\[Nor]" with "nor" and removed spaces. 18:43:06 elliott, well okay but apart from that 18:43:07 11,500 people live in the City of London. 12 million live in the metro area. 18:43:27 hm can't be 18:43:28 Vorpal: OK, so you're claiming that + is a better operator for nor than... the nor symbol? 18:43:29 but well hm 18:43:38 tswett, I thought Mathematica's syntax was "Command[Args,ARgs]" 18:43:40 Args* 18:43:48 elliott, I'm just more used to it being written like that in digital logic 18:43:51 * tswett nods. 18:44:03 anyway 18:44:04 Lymia: It has binary operators too. 18:44:08 I think ternary too. 18:44:09 ! a \[Nand] ! b \[Nand] c \[Nand] ! d 18:44:11 is the same 18:44:21 so that means 18:44:30 (a'bcd)' 18:44:31 right 18:44:31 Damned City of London being only a square mile. 18:44:38 tswett, just making sure that those are indeed meant as infix operators. 18:45:03 I think the nand one will be easier to realise in mc after all 18:45:08 pikhq: wait what 18:45:11 re: city of london 18:45:59 Vorpal, eh? 18:46:04 I thought redstone torches were NOR gates. 18:46:18 Lymia, inverters actually 18:46:20 The nor one would be easier to build, right? 18:46:27 Vorpal, try it with more than one input. 18:46:45 | 18:46:51 -#T 18:46:51 | 18:46:57 Where T is a torch attached to # 18:46:59 Lymia, a single nor is easier to build by far yes, but I can't have current going back up the input signals here. And I have 4 input signals 18:47:12 Vorpal, hold on. 18:47:45 Lymia, I mean, an non-isolating OR gate is just redstone merging after all. If you want to isolate the inputs you need something more complex 18:47:54 same sort of thing here 18:48:07 elliott: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:LondonCity.svg 18:48:19 what's actually inside the city of london :D 18:48:29 oh, it's the dense-as-fuck centre 18:48:31 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/London_from_the_air.jpg 18:48:32 nice 18:49:00 The area across the Thames is not part of the City. 18:49:04 Vorpal, http://pastebin.com/akw5i0Kn 18:49:05 Can't you do that? 18:49:14 pikhq: What is, then? 18:49:28 There's likely a more compact version too. 18:49:28 https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:City_of_London_map_01.svg 18:49:35 Lymia, possibly, but then I can't share a gate with another output 18:49:46 pikhq: A picture would be nicer than a map. 18:49:46 Essentially a few *blocks* of the ultra-dense center. 18:49:48 Lymia, gate sharing complicates things immensely 18:49:55 Phantom_Hoover: That's not a terribly large city. 18:49:56 Sorry. 18:50:03 Lymia, I'd like a mc backend for some vhdl or verilog software :D 18:50:05 Vorpal: got anything like this in sweden? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/London_from_the_air.jpg 18:50:14 Then yes, I could drive literally any direction but west and I'd reach the sea or a border before a major city. 18:50:17 Vorpal, I would try to code that. 18:50:28 Lymia, doitdoitdoit 18:50:28 But I don't think I know nearly enough theory of how that stuff works. 18:50:34 Much less practice. 18:50:39 elliott, no not really, central Stockholm is more picturesque 18:50:41 err 18:50:44 I can drive any direction but toward-a-major-city and I'll reach the sea or a border before a major city. 18:50:45 I'm guessing you could just brute-force. 18:50:45 wtf at spelling 18:50:58 Phantom_Hoover, how long will THAT take? 18:51:01 Lymia, heh 18:51:17 I can drive any direction but toward-a-major-city and I'll reach the sea or a border before a major city. <-- hah 18:51:24 Lymia, I'm thinking along the lines of reduce everything to NANDs and stick them all into MC. 18:51:34 Again. 18:51:35 Phantom_Hoover, that might not be minimal 18:51:39 elliott: *Basically*, it's the area enclosed within the historical London Wall. 18:51:40 Vorpal: "wtf at spelling"? 18:51:42 Arn't redstone torches NOR gates natrually? 18:51:46 elliott, nvm 18:51:47 Lymia, yes. 18:51:55 Well, redstone torches on a block. 18:52:01 Wouldn't it be better to reduce to that? 18:52:09 Phantom_Hoover, then there is gate sharing and what not 18:52:13 Yesyesyes OK. 18:52:13 Lymia, "depends" 18:52:30 Vorpal, "brute force" does not exactly carry an air of minimalism. 18:52:55 Phantom_Hoover, iirc real software for FPGAs take such a long time to syntesize because they try so many different combinations. I don't think it is brute force as such, but somewhat more intelligent. 18:52:55 Building the gates is the easy part if you ask me. 18:52:56 elliott: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/34/Central_Helsinki_from_plane.jpg It's like ALMOST the same thing. 18:53:14 Routing it, however... 18:53:20 Lymia, there is that too 18:53:55 fizzie: Totally. 18:53:56 How bad would the height limit be for synthesizing stuff? 18:54:00 Wow Helsinki is ugly in that picture. 18:54:06 Lymia, probably brute-forceable. 18:54:07 https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:26_-_New_York_-_Octobre_2008.jpg For comparison. 18:54:10 How could I catch constructions that I can't build without exceeding the height limit? 18:54:23 Yes, it's skyscrapers out to the horizon. 18:54:28 elliott, the upper part of http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Stockholm_lead_image.jpg comes close 18:54:37 I mean. 18:54:43 fizzie, looks like one of the grotty ports in NI I am required to pass through. 18:54:49 I doubt you'd want it covering the entire Y axis. 18:55:06 Vorpal: No, it really doesn't. 18:55:15 Vorpal: Do you realise the scale of the buildings in the London picture? 18:55:16 Lymia, throw them away after doing a check? 18:55:20 elliott: It's pretty ugly from the air always; maybe because it's so boringly flat. 18:55:31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Edinburgh_from_The_Salisbury_Crags._-_geograph.org.uk_-_84623.jpg 18:55:31 Lymia, actually I'd like mine here to not be too huge 18:55:37 We have a castle, bitches. 18:55:42 Vorpal: The London picture is depicting ~1 square mile. 18:55:44 elliott, of course. I was joking 18:55:48 Vorpal: Suuuuuuuuure. 18:55:53 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Castle_Dunedin.JPG 18:55:54 elliott, just like fizzie was 18:56:03 Vorpal, I dunno. 18:56:06 Less crappy picture of castle. 18:56:14 I guess I could start out with compiling expressions to redstone circults. 18:56:17 circuits* 18:56:19 i.e. 18:56:30 Lymia: Make it export one of them schematic things for that level editor. :p 18:56:31 def f(a,b,c):a^b^c to redstone. 18:56:37 elliott, that was what I was thinking already. 18:56:40 Anyways. 18:56:43 I NOTE HOW EXTREMELY ON TOPIC THIS IS FOR #esoteric-minecraft 18:56:44 COUGH 18:56:47 elliott, quick, show us a picture of Hexham so we may laugh. 18:56:53 Phantom_Hoover: see wikipedia 18:56:56 If I can do that, then I can think of how to do things more complicated than gates. 18:56:57 >.> 18:57:00 Lymia, routing would indeed be interesting, given the length limits, weird behaviour of repeaters, and so on 18:57:10 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:57:10 elliott, ah, clearly it centres on its abbey. 18:57:16 Phantom_Hoover: Pretty much, yes. :p 18:57:20 #esoteric: #minecraft for the people freenode considers geeks 18:57:27 Vorpal, might as well as add a piece of code that says "oh shit N/S quirk abort abort abort" 18:57:29 Actually. 18:57:31 yorick, hah 18:57:35 yorick: no, that's #esoteric-minecraft 18:57:40 WHICH IS WHAT THIS DISCUSSION SHOULD BE IN COUGH COUGH 18:57:40 -!- ZOMGMODULES has joined. 18:57:42 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:57:43 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 18:57:43 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:57:46 I like the way they have the exact same picture twice in the article. 18:57:49 How many schematic->world transfers rotate things? 18:57:50 see, you'll scare ZOMGMODULES with minecraft talk in here GET IN THE CHANNEL 18:58:03 Lymia, hm no idea 18:58:11 Oh, I'm just here for elliott's opinion on something. DOn't mind me 18:58:23 If they don't, I could have it avoid the N/S quirk when outputing MCRedstoneSim or something. 18:58:26 And use it otherwise. 18:58:28 Lymia, anyway, my primary interest here is making the logic for a 7-segment display, given BCD input 18:58:29 Lymia: >:E 18:58:34 this looks like quite a chore 18:58:39 Vorpal, heh. 18:59:00 someone did this for openttd some time ago (a LED display counter, that is) 18:59:05 elliott: please explain the appeal of ooc? <-- note clever use of question mark on non-question 18:59:12 yorick, how? trains? 18:59:17 ZOMGMODULES: it has none 18:59:18 ZOMGMODULES: yw 18:59:21 Vorpal: and signals 18:59:23 ZOMGMODULES: but, write Deadfish in it. 18:59:32 yorick, I know fizzie did some sort of adder or something such in openttd 18:59:36 I forgot what it was exactly 18:59:39 elliott: ZOMGTHX 19:00:04 yorick, Vorpal: Some gates in openttd: http://zem.fi/ttd_logic/ 19:00:09 ah 19:00:30 -!- ZOMGMODULES has quit (Client Quit). 19:00:43 http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=37902 was the display 19:01:43 http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2009/01/18/optimization-of-logic-logic-gates-part-ii/ has some gates worked out 19:03:26 wait, openttd doesn't allow underground networks does it? It just does simple straight tunnels? 19:04:24 Vorpal: it just does simple straight tunnels 19:04:27 (2D map array) 19:04:35 ah 19:04:45 yorick, that complicates the logic in openttd certainly 19:04:45 You can have magical crossing tunnels though, I gather. 19:04:48 There was some sort of a "tunnels may magically cross" patch. 19:04:55 And/or option. 19:04:55 Isn't that stock? 19:04:56 Or an option. 19:04:58 Right. 19:05:01 it's a cheat 19:05:02 (I don't play, this is log-memory.) 19:05:14 I haven't played in ages either. 19:05:19 but yes, it does have magical crossing tunnels 19:05:23 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:05:29 simutrans is better when it comes to that. You can do complicated underground networks 19:05:50 no idea if it can do as advanced logic when it comes to signals Probably not 19:05:52 simutrans kindof sucks on the networking 19:06:04 yorick, hm? You mean multiplayer? 19:06:12 Vorpal: that too, and the trains 19:06:19 yorick, how does it suck? 19:06:29 Anyhoo, I couldn't quite figure out logic gates that'd be based on just single-track signals, so I went with two-track logic. 19:07:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 19:07:51 Vorpal: the multiplayer is mostly not there 19:08:15 yorick, right, I'm not really interested in multiplayer for simutrans. So that doesn't bother me 19:10:16 about the trains...don't really know 19:11:25 the trains in openttd seem much more advanced though 19:18:35 -!- ajf has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:21:43 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:22:13 -!- augur has joined. 19:51:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:52:40 hm 19:52:53 ...no ancient lambdabot messages for me 19:54:48 fizzie, there? 19:55:03 fizzie, what did you do the diagram on http://zem.fi/ttd_logic/ with? 19:55:05 anyone remembers how you minimise boolean expressions for NOR gates? I can only remember how you do it for NAND gates, not NOR gates 19:55:12 oerjan, I found it 19:55:23 oerjan, reducing to PS-form then double inverting 19:55:25 ah. anyway it's obvious how to convert one method to the other 19:55:28 (and shifting in) 19:55:40 (they're dual operations) 19:55:56 oerjan, hm does that give minimal expressions? 19:56:21 um is this converting _from_ or _to_ NOR gates? 19:56:34 oerjan, to 19:56:54 oerjan, because NOR-NOR logic is awesome :P 19:56:56 in that case, dualize your expression, minimize it with NAND gates, then switch all NAND to NOW 19:56:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Termitaria#Nests 19:56:59 *NOR 19:57:10 "Not to be confused with Termit, Thermite or Turmite." 19:57:18 Also not to be confused with Marmite. 19:57:37 Vorpal: Either Inkscape or Dia, I'd guess. 19:57:50 fizzie, ah, what is the monospaced stuff just above? 19:57:53 fizzie, I mean, the syntax 19:58:02 http://zem.fi/ttd_logic/ttd_4adder_dia.png -- based on the file name, I'd guess Dia. 19:58:13 [Sum, C] = hadd(A, B) { 19:58:13 Sum = A xor B 19:58:13 C = A and B 19:58:13 } 19:58:14 and so on 19:58:28 And the syntax might be just some ad-hoc pseudoish notation for all I know. 19:58:31 ah 19:58:36 fizzie, hey you wrote this :P 19:58:44 Yes, but it was a while ago. :p 19:58:47 true 19:59:05 My guess is it's not any "real" notation. 19:59:27 But I probably took the [a, b] = foo(...) notation for multiple outputs out of Matlab/Octave. 20:00:14 (And the S in the middle line for the full adder should be Sum; or alternatively the Sum on the "declaration" line should be S.) 20:00:48 ah 20:01:17 fizzie, you didn't try to do carry lookahead? 20:01:41 I should look in to York Lava I wonder what it compiles to 20:02:44 Vorpal: Nno, the resulting map was already rather large after I had multiplied the generic two-input gate enough times to get a ripple-carry adder in place. 20:03:41 asdfq 20:06:15 fizzie, ah 20:06:22 tswett: Do you have running water over there in Australia? <-- yeah the water keeps running to get away from the spiders 20:06:29 hyuk 20:07:48 kuyh 20:10:20 -!- cheater897 has joined. 20:10:24 >|nhy 20:11:57 8^y 20:12:29 roadkill smileys 20:12:49 that was the sbahj smiley 20:13:15 shot by a huge jaguar? 20:14:07 smashed by a hilarious jar? 20:15:06 jarred by a smashing hilarity? 20:15:09 severed by aardvark hillbilly jerks 20:15:27 olsner: FAIL 20:15:35 oerjan: HI 20:15:36 oerjan: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/sweetbroandhellajeff/ 20:15:38 sweet bro and hella jeff 20:17:04 from today's comic, sweet bro does not seem overly intelligent 20:18:29 hm wait it seems that's the first comic 20:19:23 it i 20:19:25 [asterisk]is 20:19:36 the latest is http://www.mspaintadventures.com/sweetbroandhellajeff/?cid=031.jpg 20:20:00 ...i don't think i'm going to continue after no. 2, actually 20:20:50 but then you're missing the masterpiece that isnumber three 20:20:53 [asterisk]that is number 20:21:04 @_@ 20:21:09 also number four, and five 20:21:16 and especially six 20:21:21 and seven 20:22:42 ok that was 3 and 4. i don't think i'll ever be high enough to read the rest. 20:23:37 ...i don't think i'm going to continue after no. 2, actually <-- indeed. 20:24:29 3 and 4 are not as cross, although even more meaningless (if, i assume, you are not high) 20:24:43 but six is the best :D 20:24:55 hmm where's the prices and values one i think i'll go reread it 20:25:13 no wait seven's the best 20:25:15 they're all the best 20:25:25 elliott: i think i shall put this down to the generation gap 20:25:39 oerjan: you _realise_ it's not sincere right :D 20:26:11 ...i don't think i'm going to continue after no. 2, actually <-- indeed. 20:26:13 "Whereas reading HS while not studying (yes studying) SBaHJ is less forgivable. SBaHJ is requisite supplementary reading. If HS was a class, I would automatically fail anybody who didn't get an A on their SBaHJ exam." 20:26:14 --AH 20:26:16 * oerjan has no idea whether "put this down to" is the right idiom 20:26:54 elliott: what is not sincere? the comic or your praise of it? 20:27:06 oerjan: the comic, of course it's sincerely awesome 20:27:26 ok, generation gap it is. 20:28:14 it _may_ make more sense in context ;D 20:29:30 I am, in fact, only skimming SBaHJ, and only as they're mentioned in HS 20:30:22 you're only skimming HS to start with 20:30:28 LIES 20:30:38 hey Sgeo_ what's the dog's name 20:30:39 is it Bic 20:30:41 I think it's Bic 20:30:46 the blurb on http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/guide/BooleanComputation.html is hilarious 20:30:52 * Sgeo_ slaps elliott 20:31:02 hey Sgeo_ name some trolls 20:31:03 "access to the latest in industrial-strength Boolean computation" come on 20:31:38 Sollux, Equiunus (not sure sp), Vraska (sp?), Gamzee 20:31:58 ... 20:32:04 Says the guy, like, almost done with Hivebent. 20:32:17 I'm just going to sit here and cradle my face gently in my palms. 20:32:24 With my good old ink-based Bicsprite. 20:32:24 Act 5 Part 2 is past hivebend, right? 20:32:43 You're on Act Five Act Two and you can only remember two of the trolls' names. I am clapping here. 20:32:56 It is the most sarcastic manner in which two hands have ever met at speed before. 20:33:00 elliott, not everyone is good at remembering names 20:33:35 Vorpal: come on, he confused Scratch with another member of the Felt, despite seeing every member of the Felt and Scratch. 20:33:40 Notably none of them have a cue ball for a head. 20:34:01 elliott, who was Scratch now again 20:34:05 ... 20:34:11 Have you actually been reading. 20:34:14 elliott, yes 20:34:25 elliott, I just suck utterly at names 20:34:38 * Sgeo_ messages Vorpal 20:34:40 Just sittin' here, all cradlin' my face. 20:34:47 Sgeo_: the point of a /msg is that other people don't see it. 20:35:06 elliott, the only reason I didn't want anyone to see it was to avoid spoiling future HS readers in here 20:35:28 If Vorpal has at all been keeping up with updates he knows who Scratch is. 20:35:47 * Sgeo_ slaps Vorpal 20:35:54 elliott, I haven't been keeping up with updates no 20:36:00 elliott, been far too busy 20:36:42 Vorpal: there have only been 45 pages from the one you finished on because the rate has slowed to a crawl. 20:36:46 And only two [S]s. 20:37:15 elliott, that is still more than most other comics I read 20:37:18 which update daily 20:37:49 Vorpal: It hasn't been updating anywhere near daily, and one HS panel is less than one normal comic.. 20:37:58 hm 20:38:05 Shit, there was a 9-day hiatus mere days ago. 20:38:20 Well, "hiatus"; Flash work session. 20:39:31 Slowed to a crawl? 20:39:32 :// 20:40:28 Sgeo_: in that it's not updating at five panels per day like normal. 20:40:53 It's all about Bicsprite and his inky adventures in the Land of Paper and Lead. 20:41:02 Currently, he is drawing a giraffe. 20:46:31 a bit of a tall order 20:49:17 * oerjan notes how the slow pace of irc is so much more conducive to puns than face to face conversation 20:50:48 So is this the true reason for your status as the Punmaster? 20:52:12 maybe. i'm a bit of a joker face to face as well. 20:52:13 -!- Timwi has joined. 20:52:16 Hi! 20:52:22 hi Timwi 20:53:11 Out of curiosity, what kinds of things do you discuss on this channel normally? :) 20:53:29 everything _except_ esolangs, generally 20:53:46 Oh, so Im in the wrong place :> 20:53:59 clearly. 20:54:21 It would be futile asking something about the esolangs.org wiki then, would i? 20:54:24 *it? 20:54:28 oerjan, hey I remember an esolang discussion just a few days ago 20:54:28 Timwi, recent topics of discussion include Minecraft, Homestuck and puns. 20:54:41 Oh you guys have been punting? ;-) 20:54:44 20:54:47 Despite us already having a separate channel for Minecraft discussion to start with. 20:55:05 hi Timwi 20:55:15 Timwi, we do discuss esolangs too however, it is just that it doesn't nearly fill up the time in here. Thus we get a lot of "off topic" discussion too 20:55:48 I wanted to ask what your opinions are on full descriptions on the wiki. I find it weird that some people seem to *remove* descriptions and leave only a short summary (by far not enough to get an idea of the language) and/or replace it with a link which of course goes dead quickly. 20:55:50 besides, by coppro's conjecture, there is always an expert on anything you ask about in here, or someone in here knows an expert. 20:56:04 Timwi: yeah i don't like that either 20:56:09 Timwi: um i've only noticed it happening once recently 20:56:16 full description is better 20:56:23 Im tempted to revert the change [[Fish]] :-p 20:56:24 I didn't revert it because there's no point having an unmaintained description but I did leave a message on their talk page 20:56:37 Oh Ill go check 20:56:37 they don't seem to have replied yet, but it's only been two days 20:56:52 Timwi: however one occasional problem is people copying stuff from elsewhere. our license is not very compatible with doing that. 20:56:53 unless the language would be hugely complex. Like befunge98 or intercal 20:57:02 (understatement) 20:57:05 oerjan: hmm right 20:57:11 oerjan: OTOH it was the language creator this time 20:57:17 so they can pretty much do what they want 20:57:35 "A soldier of the New World army ant..." — WP 20:57:39 elliott: well i don't think they can just revoke the license, can they? 20:57:43 I first parsed that as some kind of weird cult. 20:57:48 I dont see why complexity should be a stopper 20:57:50 oerjan: no, exactly, posting it on the wiki counts as permission 20:58:34 I also dont happen to think that the articles should belong to the authors. Maybe the _language_ does, but unless they redefine their language I think the _description_ should be up to wiki philosophy 20:59:57 Timwi: yeah. 21:00:00 No disagreements? :) 21:00:02 definitely 21:00:31 if it wasn't a wiki, most of the articles would be of terrible quality :) 21:01:01 Now Im not sure whether youre being ironic or whether you really think most articles are good quality 21:01:04 Timwi: we've done major rewritings of articles before. it's just we're usually too lazy to do so unless we consider the language particularly interesting _and_ have ideas for improvement 21:01:15 Timwi: Well, define good quality :-P 21:01:21 Like 90 percent of our articles are on tiny minor esolangs. 21:01:28 So there's really not much to say on them. 21:01:38 Of course not, but that doesnt mean their descriptions cant be improved 21:01:49 Ive seen too many pages where the description is vague or ambiguous 21:01:57 Sure; I think the average quality of articles is pretty good for all esolangs that more than one person cares about, though, on average 21:02:01 Whoops, redundancy. 21:02:20 Timwi: well when the page is the _only_ description of the language it is hard for someone other than the author to disambiguate it 21:02:23 Timwi: Well it's hard to clarify things when there's true ambiguity, because that ambiguity is in the spec itself. 21:02:23 right 21:02:46 If we had a Funge-98 article, it would have to be extremely ambiguous by necessity (although Mycology acts as a sort of de facto disambiguator) 21:03:22 We should have some sort of incentive for authors to be precise and complete 21:03:26 although i recall i did some minor disambiguation to itflabtijtslwi when i implemented it 21:04:10 Timwi: It's called having your language ignored otherwise. 21:04:13 It's swift and merciless ;) 21:04:17 and zero-effort too :D 21:04:27 I think we can do better 21:04:51 For example, we could add banners (or other prominent boxes/markers) along the top of a page which clearly highlight all the ambiguities/open questions 21:05:00 Isn't that what talk pages are for? 21:05:04 If we add these banners quickly enough when a language is posted, the author will notice it 21:05:10 Yes, but nobody notices them 21:05:15 Talk pages are completely useless. 21:05:26 Theyre not even suitable for discussions. 21:05:29 I disagree, we've had very productive discussion and clarification on talk pages before 21:05:35 hm did the wiki just go down for anyone else 21:05:42 My proposal is not to have a discussion about the language, but just to document the shortcomings of the article _in the article itself_. 21:05:47 elliott: Works 21:05:51 Works for me too 21:06:25 Timwi: well we could have some sort of infobox I suppose, but it seems like mentioning that there's a new discussion on the article's talk page on the language author's talk page might be the most productive option? I doubt most people check their languages' articles very often after all 21:06:52 Hmm, is there an analogue of the internet archive that doesn't respect robots.txt? 21:06:58 What makes you think they check their user talk page any more often? 21:07:14 Timwi: well you get an annoying bar on every page if you don't... 21:07:15 To get the notification they would have to at least view *something* on the wiki, and what would that be if not their own language article? 21:07:23 other languages? recent changes? 21:07:26 beyond that, there's the email this user link 21:07:33 but if they have that disabled then they don't want to be bothered any more than that by choice 21:07:45 As a reader, I dont want to have to e-mail users, I want to just say this article has ambiguity XYZ and move on 21:08:00 Phantom_Hoover: you mean after the fact? not respecting it while crawling might be likely to get you banned... 21:08:01 After all, the original language inventor may not be the only person capable of clarifying the ambiguity 21:08:05 well, a note on the article talk page + a note on the user's talk page is quite easy to do 21:08:16 Timwi: if there's a spec, then you could correct the error yourself :-) 21:08:19 if not, then only the author can 21:08:32 I think youre not catching my drift here 21:08:45 maybe :) 21:08:46 At the moment, we have many articles with problems, but *nobody is documenting the problems* 21:09:21 well the wiki is fairly low-traffic, and there's a huge long tail effect on the articles that are read 21:09:39 When I was new, I tried to make [[Talk:Funciton]] a bit like this i.e. have it be a documentation of current problems but when I removed a thread that was about a *resolved* problem, it was reverted and I was asked not to remove discussions. Thus, talk pages are completely useless for my purpose 21:10:17 well archiving talk pages is OK but removing threads is generally not done 21:10:23 Timwi: um if someone logs in to the wiki at all, they will know if they have a message on their user talk page automatically, while they have to explicitly check all their language articles 21:10:27 just because it makes them hard to access (you have to find a random revision in the history) 21:11:01 I still think an articles problems should be listed on the article itself though. 21:11:28 Incidentally, I also think that should be the case on Wikipedia as it would benefit readers a lot even if they cannot resolve the problem, at least they know it exists. But of course on Wikipedia I tend to talk against a wall there :) 21:11:31 I'm fine with that, I just don't see how it will make problems get fixed any quicker. 21:12:18 Right. I cant prove to you that they will, but let me point out that most people thought wikis would never work (i.e. would only accumulate errors/problems that dont get fixed) until Wikipedia proved them wrong :) 21:13:06 well sure, but people also said the same about perpetual motion machines :P 21:13:12 I'm not opposed to the idea, I'm just not sure how people will notice 21:13:23 we _do_ have a stub template anyway 21:13:48 Oh dear, the stub template. I dont get why this is considered useful? It only states the obvious (this article is short). Its redundant. 21:14:12 well some articles are short because there's not much to say 21:14:19 others are short because we haven't figured out /what/ to say yet :) 21:14:24 only one kind are stubs 21:14:41 Timwi: so that people can easily go looking for stubs to expand on, in theory 21:15:47 I think a language article really *needs* only one thing: all the information necessary to implement the language or to program in it. But there are several would-be-nice-to-haves: the top #1 for me is example programs. Others include, for example, a simplified list of commands (a cheat sheet); another is a beginners introduction/tutorial... 21:16:05 coppro: Well you can still do that with [[Special:Shortpages]] 21:16:12 IMO a tutorial would usually belong on another page, perhaps even a user page, since it's much less objective information than the rest 21:16:36 It can certainly go on a subpage, but why a user page? 21:16:48 Why is a tutorial not objective, and even if it isnt, why does all content need to be objective? 21:17:01 because there are many ways to introduce someone to a language 21:17:06 beyond what consensus can agree on 21:17:16 that's just my opinion anyway 21:17:20 Well yeah, but surely its better to have /one/ such way than none 21:17:32 -!- Tritonio has joined. 21:18:04 -!- azaq23 has joined. 21:18:53 Do you think the introduction I wrote for Funciton is useless and/or too subjective? 21:19:12 I don't really see that as a tutorial 21:19:24 it's more a list of examples of certain features in increasing complexity rather than a guide on writing programs, IMO 21:19:31 OK, true 21:19:38 It was intended as an _introduction_ rather than a tutorial 21:19:46 right :) 21:19:58 I wish more articles did that. Instead I tend to see descriptions that already assume knowledge about the execution environment / memory model / etc. 21:23:06 Timwi: btw your irc client is putting some strange characters in your messages 21:23:25 for quotes 21:23:30 -!- ralc has joined. 21:23:38 Since when is UTF-8 strage? 21:23:40 strange? 21:24:07 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:24:20 they show up as inverted double S or T 21:24:34 Hm 21:24:36 and i'm otherwise approximately utf8 clean 21:24:47 Well, I'm assuming that it's UTF-8 -- how do I check? :-p 21:25:04 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:25:14 In fact I'm not running the newest version of mIRC. Maybe I should upgrade 21:25:20 oerjan has rather bad luck with unicode 21:25:45 i've noticed elliott occasionally pastes characters like that, but he doesn't write them afair 21:25:48 Is anyone seeing my characters properly? quotes single quotes em dash etc.? 21:26:08 I am, but oerjan and maybe others tend to have problems with Unicode characters in here anyway 21:26:10 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/11.05.22 at the end 21:26:19 shows up as blank squares to me 21:26:23 and it's possible my client is just doing encoding detection 21:26:26 Why do so many people use ancient 1980s technology? :( 21:27:03 That chat log appears to be encoded as Windows-1252 21:27:11 tunes.org sends no header 21:27:13 i don't think this is utf8, since they don't show up as such in the logs 21:27:19 oerjan: you might try the codu logs 21:27:23 that assumes utf8 21:27:26 hm 21:27:32 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:27:34 indeed it shows wrongly there too 21:27:37 as wrong single characters 21:27:45 so Timwi is the one using eighties technology -- a non-unicode character set :) 21:27:56 http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2011-05-22.txt 21:28:16 Are you sure that the log shows exactly what my client sends? 21:28:24 Yes. 21:28:30 I've read the code to glogbot :P 21:28:34 OK then I need to find out how to enable UTF-8 21:28:46 you could just use dumb quotes ;) 21:28:50 ̈æ (testing) 21:28:55 indeed, shows right in the logs for me 21:29:04 although with a diaeresis inexplicably?? 21:29:37 A combining diaeresis no less 21:30:00 oh, that's what i actually typed 21:30:00 heh 21:30:03 Anyway. I'm happy to hear suggestions for a better IRC client 21:30:08 huh 21:30:13 æ (testing too) 21:30:19 I use xchat but I'm on linux 21:30:30 no diaeresis for that 21:30:37 although I gather that http://code.google.com/p/xchat-wdk/ is a decent xchat bild for windows... 21:30:40 build 21:30:49 BTW looks like mIRC can correctly _display_ your UTF-8-encoded text. I guess that's why I thought it also _sends_ UTF-8 21:31:37 a lot of clients tend to do that, even xchat by default 21:31:49 I had to change encoding from "IRC" which is some freakish latin-one/utf-eight hybrid to plain utf8 21:32:14 Why has nobody ever written a completely normal, un-messed-up IRC client?! :-) 21:33:08 they have, hundreds of times in fact 21:33:15 just like editors :) 21:33:15 Well I've never seen one 21:33:24 Yeah, I've never seen any of those either 21:33:26 precisely, so you can be the next person in line to write one :) 21:33:39 Yeah, and no doubt 90% of all people will think mine is messed up too 21:33:41 and then the first person to use yours will say "What kind of IDIOT wrote this? I'm going to write a /normal/ editorclient" :-P 21:34:34 -!- Timwi_ has joined. 21:34:47 Meow? 21:34:53 Whoa, I didn't see the join message 21:35:00 oerjan: /set recode_fallback CP1252 21:35:17 Deewiant: hm? 21:35:19 Deewiant: that's loser talk 21:35:21 oh wait, i see 21:35:22 Argh! Ctrl+L clears the bugger, how do I undo that? 21:35:27 Timwi: you can't 21:35:27 LOL s/bugger/buffer/ 21:35:34 well, afaik 21:35:39 oerjan: To make irssi try windows-1252 when it's not UTF-8 21:35:43 I'm not sure why /clear even exists really 21:35:50 oerjan: And to make Timwi's quotes etc work :-P 21:35:50 (Ctrl+L is the binding) 21:35:57 Right. So here we go, the first shortcut I press (accidentally) has a destructive data-loss characteristic with no undo. You don't think that's messed up? :-p 21:36:10 Well if you turn logging on it's not destructive. :p 21:36:17 OK how do I do that? :) 21:36:20 Deewiant: i have it as iso-8859-1, i recall i had some trouble with using cp1252 after i changed the rest of my setup to be utf8 clean 21:36:30 cp1252 is a ISO-8859-1 superset 21:36:34 Timwi: Settings → Preferences → Logging 21:36:47 Deewiant: no, strangely enough _something_ broke iirc 21:36:54 I think I'll spend some time going through the Preferences dialog, thanks 21:37:07 i cannot quite recall what it was 21:37:10 oerjan: It /is/ a superset :-P 21:37:18 Meow 21:38:08 Argh, the menu keyboard navigation is all messed up :(( Sorry I'm so picky :) 21:38:15 Deewiant: ah iirc iso1252 gave me trouble with characters 128 to 128+31 21:38:28 when doing bot stuff 21:39:32 Well, that's the only range where stuff is different 21:39:37 Deewiant: i vaguely recall characters showed up duplicated. 21:39:42 Meow Timwi test Meow 21:39:48 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:39:49 -!- Timwi has changed nick to Timwi__. 21:39:50 In ISO-8859-1 they're control chars, in windows-1252 they're not 21:39:51 -!- Timwi_ has changed nick to Timwi. 21:40:03 xchat, the best irc client for felines 21:40:14 Test Meow Timwi Test meow 21:40:24 !bf8 +[.+] 21:40:26 ​........ 21:40:56 * oerjan misses fungot 21:41:05 fizzie: we demand fungottery 21:41:13 Deewiant: oh hm wait i am seeing double chars _now_ 21:41:59 -!- Timwi__ has quit. 21:42:03 !bf8 ++++++++++[.+] 21:42:04 OK now lets see how it goes 21:42:09 I couldnt find any UTF-8-related options though 21:42:17 Are the quotes showing up properly now? 21:42:33 looks the same as before (i.e. fine) to me 21:42:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:42:38 Timwi: the encoding is in the network list thing 21:42:48 edit the server → Character set 21:43:28 Aaargrggghhh 21:43:33 Deewiant: ah yes. when i do cp1252 all the chars after that become messed up 21:43:39 This is totally messed up. I cant type normally into this text box... 21:43:44 eh? 21:44:03 I should make a list of all the issues I have with all the crap software I encounter :) 21:44:24 what's not normal about the text box :) 21:44:31 it's a standard gtk text box here 21:44:34 but then my whole environment is gtk 21:45:13 It doesnt accept keypresses that come from a WinAPI SendInput() call. 21:45:35 Uhm, more precisely, it accepts keypresses such as backspace, but not Unicode characters :) 21:46:05 hmm 21:46:05 This is not the first time Im having huge issues with GTK and Unicode. For a GUI toolkit I think it is exceptionally broken 21:46:10 try the input methods menu in the right-click? 21:46:21 well you're on Windows, it's hardly GTK's native platform :) 21:46:34 in X11 it supports unicode input perfectly for me 21:46:50 oh hey 21:46:50 What does that Input Methods menu do that isnt already covered by normal native OS-level functionality? 21:46:50 (diff) (hist) . . Fish‎; 19:11 . . (+8,797) . . Harpyon (Talk | contribs) (Added/rewrote documentation.) 21:46:54 it was readded 21:47:00 Yeah, I noticed that :) 21:47:11 Timwi: well on Unix/X11 which is GTK's native platform there is /no/ OS-level functionality for that, it's in the toolkit i.e. GTK :) 21:47:28 Right, so every program needs to implement it separately 21:47:46 So every program will implement it _differently_, so the amount of learning (and frustration) increases with the number of programs you use 21:47:54 no, not every program implements it separately 21:48:02 because there's more than one program that uses gtk 21:48:17 actually it seems to have been unified into this "ibus" thing lately, I bet that works with Qt too... 21:48:38 How does that help anyone using any other app? 21:48:48 Clearly OS-level functionality is the right way to do this 21:48:58 "any other app"? 21:49:07 you realise there are hundreds if not thousands of applications using GTK+, right? 21:49:13 You want character input to be consistent across *ALL APPS WITHOUT EXCEPTION*, not different from framework to framework 21:49:24 among them the vast majority of popular graphical Unix programs 21:49:35 e.g. every single Gnome program 21:49:51 Right, so GTK now has a user lock-in feature too if you try to use ANY non-GTK program AT ALL and expect to be able to enter text normally, youre screwed 21:49:57 Timwi: well it's a flexibility tradeoff -- every program that runs on the "GTK+ graphical OS" supports it. 21:50:13 if it was on the Xorg level, it would just mean that doing it differently would involve rewriting the entire graphical subsystem 21:50:32 (and it's certainly feasible to not use a single non-GTK graphical program) 21:50:52 So uhm, any other suggestions for a better IRC client? :) 21:51:02 nope :) 21:52:04 WTF, now mIRC stopped working, supposedly because the evaluation period expired. That seems a bit random now, Ive been using it for decades :) 21:52:14 just give it a few seconds and the continue button enables :P 21:52:47 Timwi: btw i do generally agree wrt things being at the OS layer rather than lower down -- e.g. I'm a fan of OS-level object model/garbage collection -- but I'm not sure it's always clear-cut 21:53:15 Yeah, I dont claim that its easy :) 21:53:49 I was just very surprised to see this kind of text-input functionality in applications like Skype, Pidgin and now XChat, which duplicate functionality that should be OS-global and not app-specific... 21:54:07 Skype is Qt I think, not sure; Pidgin and XChat are both GTK+. 21:54:17 Yeah, it is 21:54:38 It's not really app-specific so much as layering some "graphical-environment functionality" on top of another graphical-environment (Windows), whereas they usually run a layer lower (X Windows), IMO 21:55:21 Its app-specific in the sense that there is GUI for it (such as the Input Methods menu in XChat) that should be in the OS 21:56:56 What would make you consider such an option "part of the OS"? It's so you can set a specific input method temporarily 21:57:02 So it wouldn't work in any sort of system-wide settings 21:57:20 -!- Timwi__ has joined. 21:57:22 Meow! 21:57:42 -!- Timwi has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:57:42 -!- Timwi__ has changed nick to Timwi. 21:58:21 I may have misunderstood what the feature does, but even switching between input methods (e.g. keyboard layouts) I would argue should be OS-level. I'm actually annoyed that Windows remembers the keyboard layout on a per-app basis and switches between them as you switch between apps :) 21:59:22 Anyway 21:59:24 Back to esolangs 21:59:43 I was actually going to ask whether there is any demand for a primitive esoteric-language IDE with a step-through debugger :) 22:00:11 I wrote one for an esolang I haven't published yet, and I was wondering whether anyone would like to help me add other languages, esp. BF and Befunge and some of the most popular ones 22:00:19 there's a bunch of them for brainfuck 22:00:40 by Befunge I take it you mean Befunge-93 22:00:45 not Funge-98 22:00:51 Yeah, but I'm thinking of a single, integrated program that supports as many languages as possible 22:01:07 (Implementing Funge-98 is a major project in itself; doing it efficiently and with good fingerprint support takes many thousands of lines.) 22:01:28 Timwi: what language? I haven't tried Funciton yet because it depends on a newer version of .NET than Mono supports 22:01:39 I don't think there's many Windows users in here 22:02:55 Well, I wrote it in C# because I happen to know C# best. I don't think you have to use Windows; I'm pretty sure that it'll work in Mono. 22:03:05 I could even concoct my own implementation of BigInteger, then I don't need to require .NET 4.0. 22:03:20 Last I checked Mono didn't have BigInteger, yeah. 22:04:17 Hm, there's a Mono.Math.BigInteger 22:04:42 same API, though? 22:04:47 No 22:04:48 it seems to be unsigned only 22:04:56 Oh dear :) 22:06:05 Everyone except for us two has gone quiet... 22:06:12 chirp 22:06:17 !bf8 +[.+] 22:06:18 ​........ 22:06:25 `echo beep 22:06:28 I should have gone slower so I could tell whether it's because I mentioned C# or whether it was because we talked about GTK+ in Windows :) 22:06:29 ​beep 22:06:30 > text "boop" 22:06:31 boop 22:06:48 oerjan: Phantom_Hoover: hey, revive the channel :-) 22:07:10 I suggest we do it with SCIENCE! 22:07:13 Bee science! 22:08:02 (I have developed an interest in bees.) 22:09:18 Esolang based on bees. Discuss. 22:09:33 -!- elliott_ has joined. 22:09:45 Beesolang. 22:09:47 Hm, commands are encoded as dance patterns? 22:10:01 Perhaps. Or you control the queen. 22:10:43 You make new bees and they do things. 22:11:35 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:12:45 -!- elliott__ has joined. 22:12:51 The resident electronics seem to be rather unhappy 22:12:57 Computer crashed then my router cut out 22:13:03 I am sorry we are discussing Beesolang. 22:13:15 Who pronounced "eso" with a long e. 22:13:18 pronounces. 22:13:22 Bad people that's who. 22:13:40 ...you say it as "ehsolang"? 22:13:46 Yes. 22:13:49 I always thought it should be long e, too. 22:13:57 -!- elliott_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:13:59 I WILL CONSULT GOOGLE 22:14:00 But... esoteric is pronounced with a long 'e'. 22:14:03 a language with cubes 22:14:04 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 22:14:07 http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=esoteric&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=uorZTeOpCsHRhAe05bS2Bg&ved=0CCAQkQ4&biw=1440&bih=761 22:14:08 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host). 22:14:08 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 22:14:14 Pronunciation icon -> "ehsoteric". 22:14:17 Ha ha I am right. 22:14:27 Huh. 22:14:34 http://howjsay.com/index.php?word=esoteric&submit=Submit 22:14:38 * Phantom_Hoover uses DESCRIPTIVISM 22:14:40 Short e apparently... 22:14:46 Phantom_Hoover: It's super effective. 22:14:47 I have literally never heard it said with a short 'e'. 22:14:58 When have you EVER heard "esoteric" said? 22:15:08 It's a common word down our way. 22:15:19 You weirdo Scots. 22:15:25 fun fact, no one has ever said "esoteric", anything else is just an illusion 22:15:38 oerjan: your facts are as amusing as they are factual 22:15:54 I've heard esophagus though, is that similar? :)) 22:16:04 * Phantom_Hoover remembers that he has a computerised pronunciation guide on his hard drive. 22:16:09 elliott__: your praise is as welcome as it is sincere 22:16:18 oerjan: It was _perfectly_ sincere. 22:16:23 I never said the fact was factual ;-) 22:16:37 Phantom_Hoover: A text-to-speech program? 22:16:53 elliott__, no, just ASCII phonetics. 22:16:56 curses, foiled by logic again 22:17:02 Phantom_Hoover: So are you a bee hipster yet? 22:17:13 Metallurgy, things to make shirts out of... bees are merely the next logical step. 22:17:31 Did you even express interest in what the shirt would be made of. 22:17:45 I read it in the logs. 22:17:53 I am going to generalise it down to "silk" to irritate you. 22:18:05 spider silk 22:18:07 I will then point out how impractical that is wrt the weather where you live. 22:18:39 I would have a machine for it, obviously. 22:18:44 And... import the spiders? 22:18:53 Phantom_Hoover: I mean that it is cold in Scotland. 22:18:57 And silk is... not very warming. 22:18:58 It's more practical than the tantalum, at least. 22:19:05 Tantalum shirt. 22:19:07 elliott__, we have jumpers, you know. 22:19:20 Phantom_Hoover: Thus making the shirt completely superfluous :P 22:20:12 Ah no because the collar of the shirt would be visible and everyone would be like "oh, your shirt is weird" and I'd be like "yes, it's made of spider silk" and then I could hug arachnophobes. 22:20:32 ... 22:20:38 Finally I understand your mind. 22:21:11 Oh? Do tell, I've often wondered myself. 22:22:27 elliott__: i think that was more of an oklopol comment, really 22:22:42 oerjan: it had too many words for that 22:22:45 big ones 22:22:48 hm 22:24:54 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 22:27:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:29:37 → 22:29:51 Hm, what did you see in my previous message? 22:30:16 ’ 22:30:27 Interesting! It’s sending UTF-8 now! 22:30:51 * Timwi shuts up. 22:32:35 elliott__, you still there? 22:32:54 I was actually going to ask why people seem to be intent on keeping deadlinks around on esolangs.org. 22:34:35 well I created {{deadlink}} so people would either update them or wayback them 22:34:52 Oh 22:34:54 That wasn’t obvious :) 22:35:25 Although I did do that once — I recovered the description of [[Emoticon]] from the wayback machine 22:35:31 maybe I should put a note on the template page... 22:35:36 and link the "dead link" text to it 22:35:50 Timwi: hm you didn't copy from it without checking with the author though right? 22:35:53 Great, oerjan removed it :) 22:35:54 that would be a copyvio :/ 22:36:06 yeah alas 22:36:28 I can’t deny that it’s technically a copyvio, but I really cannot imagine it ever being a problem :) 22:37:37 well we do enforce the policy quite strictly, but I don't see anything that could be a copyvio on [[Emoticon]] 22:38:06 ugh, the new wayback interstitial is annoying 22:38:33 elliott__: um, Great, oerjan removed it :) 22:38:38 ah 22:39:11 hm i wonder what you're meant to do with copyvios on wikis since it stays in the history 22:39:17 I think Wikipedia does a delete/restore without those revisions thing 22:39:35 Timwi: was it actually a vio or did you write your own description using the page? 22:39:37 the latter is fine ofc 22:39:44 OK, sent him an e-mail 22:40:09 it was pretty directly copied as i recall 22:40:24 Yeah, I copied it and only fixed the formatting 22:40:28 Which actually took me quite a while :/ 22:40:40 Would be annoying if I don’t hear from the guy and the work was for nothing 22:40:49 that's copyright law for you :( 22:41:13 I thought in the US copyright law allows us to post it and wait until we get a takedown notice :) 22:41:28 No 22:41:33 That's the kind of thing that gets you prosecuted :-P 22:41:39 if you get a takedown notice, you have to take it down 22:41:44 but it doesn't make it legal in the first plcae 22:41:58 that would be Graue's decision in any case 22:42:12 Speaking of Graue, I haven’t received a reply from him about my e-mail... :( 22:42:23 Timwi: no. the law allows the _isp/host_ to wait until they get a takedown notice. the uploader can certainly be sued immediately. 22:42:36 Oh I see 22:42:57 (well ok i'm not entirely certain) 22:43:19 I find making things up to be an excellent substitute for knowing things; YMMV 22:43:21 :-P 22:43:29 but it's meant to protect isp/hosts from having to check everything 22:44:49 i _think_ graue paid attention to ais523's email during the recent spam flood. but i certainly didn't get a response to the last one i sent 22:45:23 mind you the problem was fixed though 22:45:26 If Graue is going to be prohibitively unresponsive, we could consider forking the content :-p 22:45:44 Graue is a good admin and the esolangs.org domain has lots of Googlejuice in it anyway 22:45:52 although is technically not owned by Graue IIRC 22:46:10 Yeah, of course it would be best if we could get hold of the domain too :) 22:46:35 well I don't see why, the wiki is running quite smoothly 22:46:36 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:46:36 "While parsing numbers is not very hard, it makes for slow and possibly glitchy programs." --[[Fish]] 22:46:37 wat... 22:46:49 possibly glitchy? can this guy not write a number parsing program or something :) 22:48:12 elliott__, I explained why — because I’m not getting a response regarding my suggestions for improvement. Is the wiki interested in improvements or not? If I can host it equally smoothly *and* be responsive *and* make it easier for users to format articles nicely, that’s clearly an improvement :) 22:48:15 Of course I’m not saying I can 22:48:33 well what suggestions did you make? 22:48:48 For example, I considered making a new MediaWiki skin that is unique to esolangs 22:49:10 did you see mine and ais' replies on the talk page? that would be best done locally at first, since it involves editing PHP 22:49:16 I also suggested the div/span template thingie, which was eventually added, but only because someone found a tricky workaround for the filter :-p 22:49:23 if you had a finished skin you might get a quicker response 22:49:30 Right 22:49:53 But more than creating a whole skin, I’d really just like to improve the look of individual articles 22:49:59 For that I would like to be able to edit [[Common.css]] 22:50:07 Er, [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] 22:50:32 well again some concrete suggestions might help :) 22:54:28 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:54:46 Why shouldn’t I be able to make these suggestions in the same way that you make any other suggestions on a wiki — by editing it? 22:55:20 well with normal pages you can only mess up one page with an edit, and it's easily revertible; with the CSS anyone could make the site unusable with a single edit 22:55:52 Well I’m not suggesting to make it editable to everyone 22:55:56 At the moment it is very hard to make a table that doesn’t look completely rubbish. Even if I add the code to make it look okay, I still have to add that to every single table.... 22:56:29 I agree that a nicer table style would be nicer; have you written any CSS to make them nicer? You can test modifications in [[User:Timwi/Monobook.css]] and then any sysop could easily copy it over if people like it. 22:56:42 That was what was going to happen with the wikitable class from Wikipedia, but unfortunately the license prohibits it. 22:56:49 Well, except that no-one can see it until it is copied over :-p 22:56:58 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 22:56:58 (unless you copy it to your own user page, etc.etc. — a lot of unnecessary work) 22:57:15 Oh, that reminds me, I actually had another idea which may be a lot more controversial than this :) 22:57:25 Timwi: Well, nobody can see it before it is added to the global style either 22:57:29 in your proposed scenario 22:57:43 Yes, hence why I‘m asking to be able to do that 22:57:53 But anyway 22:58:16 hm is that an opening single quote character there... 22:58:22 (in "I‘m") 22:58:46 Basically I was thinking it might be nice to be able to vote on esolangs. One could give a rating as to how clear the article is, how complete the spec, etc.... Does this sound like total chaos? :) 22:59:02 heh, didn't wikipedia introduce something like that recently... 22:59:12 elliott__: Yes, I would have fixed it if IRC allowed me to edit messages, but since it’s such ancient 1980s technology, I can’t. 22:59:25 Timwi: that's what s/// is fro :-) 22:59:26 They did? I didn’t see anything like it 22:59:28 s/fro/for/ 22:59:32 s/‘/’/g :-p 22:59:51 * elliott__ can only imagine the chaos if IRC messages were fully editable... 22:59:55 Timwi: at the bottom of articles occasionally there's a rating panel thing. 23:00:13 something like "rate the writing", "content", "sources" and then it asks you how much of an expert you think you are in that area, which is just asking for bias 23:00:21 Hm, can’t see it... 23:00:31 it seems to only pop up occasionally 23:00:32 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined. 23:00:59 Right. Well, anyway, I was wondering about esolangs.org, not Wikipedipa :) 23:01:17 a rating system might be interesting, but would be perfectly doable as a separate project 23:01:28 I think the long tail comes in again -- who has a real opinion on the hundreds of esolangs on the wiki? 23:01:31 I have an opinion on a few dozen at most 23:01:42 I suppose 23:01:47 so I imagine past the top N, it'd be a bit of a mush 23:01:51 but I'd be interested in seeing it, anyway 23:02:05 (it might work better as a "which is better: esolang X or Y?" type thing...) 23:02:19 Well, the main reason I thought of it is because I think the Main Page really needs a “featured esolang”, and this would be a democratic way of selecting one. 23:03:20 I was going to make myself dinner two hours ago, now I’m really hungry, so I think I better do it now. 23:03:24 a featured esolang might be interesting 23:03:34 I don't think the wiki has nearly enough traffic to keep it turning over at a decent rate were it democratic, though 23:03:43 -!- Timwi has changed nick to Timwi-Cooking. 23:03:46 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Popularpages -- it's really quite low-traffic 23:04:16 Argh, by linking me to that you’re making me click on some of them, making them even more popular :) 23:04:49 -!- Patashu has joined. 23:05:00 I'm not sure twenty thousand views can count as popular by any measure :) 23:05:07 haha, Deadfish is one of the most popular articles 23:05:09 785 views for Funciton?! That’s surprisingly many! Who are all these people looking at it and not commenting :)) 23:05:31 I REALLY NEED TO GO COOKING 23:05:32 Bye :-p[ 23:05:37 s/\[// :-p 23:07:38 -!- micahjohnston has changed nick to incomprehensibly. 23:08:57 -!- incomprehensibly has changed nick to micahjohnston. 23:09:42 elliott__: maybe it's because of the golf? 23:10:01 oerjan: anagolf isn't /that/ popular, is it? 23:10:04 probably it got linked on reddit 23:10:06 OR 23:10:07 it's all us 23:10:07 hm probably not 23:10:12 we just made _that_ _many_ implementations 23:10:13 ;D 23:10:16 heh 23:11:05 words of wisdom: infinite muffins is too expensive and nobody can afford it 23:11:17 i wonder if PopularPages registers if i only look at a diff (as often happens when browsing Recent Changes 23:11:20 ) 23:13:11 hm no underload 23:13:35 i recall Chu-Carroll blogged about it, but maybe he didn't link to the wiki 23:13:50 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:15:11 is thutu on there? chu-carroll blogged about that too 23:15:33 well i'm speaking about the first page 23:15:55 nope 23:16:19 heck even unlambda isn't (it's #1 on the next page) 23:16:33 pah 23:16:37 uncouth viewers 23:17:00 so oerjan how are you going to minimise Underload next? Is it TC without )? ;D 23:18:20 ) is a delimiter that matches ( so you now need to change other things too 23:18:31 you killed the joke :( 23:19:26 it was moribund from the start 23:21:29 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:24:52 | 23:26:01 The article about Rapture seems like a list like the list in the article about Silly Emplosions except entirely different 23:26:38 "like, except entirely different" 23:28:42 elliott__: Yes. 23:30:36 google have apparently started to try and capitalise domain names 23:30:43 TvTropes now shows as "tvTropes.org" 23:31:00 capital idea 23:32:31 elliott__: Are they based on META headings or anything like that? 23:32:49 no idea 23:32:56 it seems to be guesswork 23:33:01 I really think Google is messing up a lot of things over time it becomes even more mixed up from before 23:33:12 yeah yeah i can predict your opinions on google 23:33:19 except it doesn't just always camelcase the domain it seems... 23:33:20 hmm 23:33:33 seems to capitalise the u in "UrbanDictionary" 23:42:21 I think it's showing off how fancily it can detect words now 23:42:26 by detecting words in urls and capitalizing the starts of them 23:42:27 ?? 23:42:46 ok testing things with weird pronunciation it gets "deviantART" right, maybe it /is/ based on meta tags in part 23:42:49 this is silly 23:42:51 who cares 23:43:01 -!- Timwi-Cooking has changed nick to Timwi. 23:44:46 Or maybe TITLE or something even if not META, is also possible. 23:45:18 ah yes, google sometimes constructs its own titles after all nowadays 23:46:10 -!- Timwi has quit. 23:52:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).