00:01:23 <Vorpal> <elliott> 20:09:59: <AnMaster> ehird____, well yes. But this would be an interesting new file sharing idea. Just share offset in pi
00:01:23 <Vorpal> <elliott> 20:10:02: <AnMaster> :P
00:01:23 <Vorpal> <elliott> 20:10:10: <AnMaster> compression too
00:01:23 <Vorpal> <elliott> Pictured: Vorpal doesn't understand information theory.
00:03:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, possibly
00:03:57 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway did you ever found the official reason
00:09:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, for lack of rapture
00:10:53 <oerjan> but no need to worry, this one has a completely pronouncable name
00:11:08 <Vorpal> oerjan, what is the name
00:12:12 <Vorpal> "including the main east-west road. " <-- this (from bbc) says something about the size of iceland
00:13:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Although it's apparently under the Vatnajokull glacier, which is getting towards Ejafjallajokull levels.
00:13:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, jökull*
00:14:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it makes a HUGE difference. Please transcribe it properly if you are not going to use the proper letters
00:14:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes it does
00:15:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh if I hadn't it would have been an ENORMOUS difference
00:15:02 <elliott_> lol Vorpal has alphabet insecurity
00:15:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not at all
00:15:35 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:15:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, at least it is a large difference, possibly even LARGE
00:15:55 <elliott_> Vorpal: nobody gives a shit, stfu
00:16:57 <Phantom_Hoover> There is an even huger difference there: they are actually different words, but noöne actually *cares* if you confuse them because it's always clear from context.
00:20:47 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's the same as advice vs. advise.
00:20:54 <Vorpal> hm that is larger indeed
00:21:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, though it can be larger than that in Nordic languages
00:21:28 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:21:52 <Vorpal> länstrafiken ~ county traffic (company that operate buses). lanstrafiken ~ lance traffic
00:22:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, in the first case you spelled both the same way...
00:22:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Although the latter is a place name and UK place names are notorious for their unpronounceability.
00:23:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which is an issue, even a related one, but a slightly different one
00:23:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, right you meant that one
00:23:55 <Vorpal> how do you pronounce Reading?
00:24:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Other amusing pronunciations are Worcester and Berkely.
00:25:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I always wondered about Worcester
00:26:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I presume these are due to changes in spelling / pronunciation over time?
00:27:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes. pikhq_ probably knows details since he's all about random linguistic stuff
00:28:18 <Phantom_Hoover> And then there's the transliterated Gaelic and Irish, like Siobhan (Sheevohn).
00:29:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, where is that? Wales?
00:29:44 <Vorpal> well, I need to sleep, night
00:35:06 -!- elliott_ has set topic: let's put this into perspective. you put up with the puppet prostate because you love of wizards. -oscar wilde | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:35:55 <elliott_> That livestream sure is confusing.
00:36:13 <oerjan> that's wilde, always putting the finger on the relevant point
00:36:38 <elliott_> angelanicole: he has his reasons for thinking today it will happen but I still believe only GOD knows
00:37:06 <elliott_> JesusIsCumming: VOTE FOR HOPE! VOTE FOR A RAPTURE OF FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY! GINGRICH 2012!
00:39:58 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
00:40:39 <elliott_> "May 21 is not over all over the Earth. When the whole Earth gets to May 22, then we might see things differently."
00:43:07 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:45:15 <oerjan> comments can be deleted
00:48:49 <oerjan> no, but the person who can delete the imgur picture is presumably the person who posted the link
00:49:10 <oerjan> while any single one of the commenters could be a jerk and delete their comment
00:49:10 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
00:49:58 * oerjan now wonders if there is a DeletesAllHisComments novelty account
00:50:52 <oerjan> well not under that name
00:51:10 <variable> The world had ended, who is still alive?
00:52:03 <oerjan> according to that recent prophecy, the end would be five months later iirc
00:52:17 <variable> Phantom_Hoover: I know. Its just when all the people go to heaven and the world ends a few months later or something like that
00:53:30 <oerjan> imagine OCD hell. it's indistinguishable from heaven for a normal person, but every little detail is _slightly_ wrong
00:53:33 <elliott_> variable: well there were some earthquakes and two hundred million christians evaporated
00:53:46 <elliott_> oerjan: Insert joke-killing clarification about the nature of OCD here
00:54:14 <oerjan> elliott_: you just earned yourself a reservation there, kiddo
00:54:32 <Vorpal> elliott_, it should be CDO. Sorted alphabetically.
00:55:29 <oerjan> is it OCPD that is the light version
00:55:48 <Vorpal> oerjan, what does that stand for?
00:56:02 <elliott_> oerjan: I think OCPD and OCD are unrelated disorders that are merely "similar"
00:56:40 <oerjan> i vaguely recall there was a quip about the difference
00:57:46 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> elliott_, it should be CDO. Sorted alphabetically.
00:58:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Pictured here: Vorpal is only capable of copying and pasting done-to-death-jokes when he engages in any form of legitimate humour.
00:58:25 <elliott_> <Phantom_Hoover> Pictured here: Vorpal is only capable of copying and pasting done-to-death-jokes when he engages in any form of legitimate humour.
00:58:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, wait a second. I thought of that one now. Though I guess someone else might have done it before
00:59:11 <elliott_> You... are actually bad enough at humour to reinvent that independently?
00:59:23 <elliott_> Are you a loaf of pre-sliced white bread.
00:59:41 <Vorpal> elliott_, well, variable laughed above. So maybe it is you and Phantom_Hoover who are the issue here
01:00:35 <Vorpal> elliott_, I mean, you two are the only people I know who seem to react that way to my humour.
01:00:54 <Vorpal> some else in this channel to some lesser degree
01:01:08 <oerjan> Vorpal: it's their OCPD, surely
01:02:13 <elliott_> Vorpal: have you considered that the only people who can stand you are the ones who have no sense of humour :)
01:02:34 <oerjan> also, i'm pretty sure that joke has been done before in this channel, while discussing the same subject
01:02:37 <Vorpal> elliott_, that is a possible hypothesis yes
01:02:54 <Vorpal> oerjan, possibly. I don't read everything in here.
01:03:22 <oerjan> Vorpal: it is also possible that you have, but have forgotten it. makes it _so_ much easier to reinvent things, i assume
01:03:30 <Vorpal> anyway I think the CDO one was funny. But now it has been overanalysed.
01:03:34 <elliott_> there's a name for that phenomenon
01:03:41 <elliott_> but i've forgotten it, so let's call it the Hird phenomenon
01:04:27 <oerjan> compulsif disordre obsessif
01:06:05 <Vorpal> elliott_, forgetting things? Amnesia?
01:06:34 <elliott_> hearing something, forgetting it, then thinking it's your own invention
01:06:49 <Vorpal> elliott_, no clue what that is
01:06:54 <oerjan> forgetfulness forgetfulness syndrome
01:07:11 <Vorpal> elliott_, lets invent a word for it!
01:07:23 <elliott_> <elliott_> but i've forgotten it, so let's call it the Hird phenomenon
01:08:08 <Vorpal> elliott_, I was trying to joke about that we would hit the right name if we tried to invent it
01:08:33 <oerjan> google corrects it to third phenomenon, it seems
01:09:39 <oerjan> "From The Culture of Matter to the Matter of Culture"
01:11:39 <oerjan> apparently it's a feminist text by myra hird
01:12:11 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> "From The Culture of Matter to the Matter of Culture"
01:12:36 <elliott_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_%28novel%29
01:13:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I FIND THE GROWTH OF THE SECONDARY PLOT AND DIVERSION FROM THE APPARENT PRIMARY ONE MASTERFUL
01:15:53 <elliott_> HEY DOES ANYONE WANT TO PLAY W:A I'M BORED
01:19:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:19:18 -!- Vorpal has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
01:26:26 <CakeProphet> ...oh god, someone wants me to make a Facebook wall-post download bot..
01:26:51 <elliott_> i thought you said like spambot :D
01:27:16 <CakeProphet> they have a bunch of wall posts they want to download off of their Facebook page. I'm pretty sure that requires some Javascript execution, but I'm not certain.
01:27:42 <elliott_> use one of the browser automation toolkits?
01:27:54 <elliott_> or even, just a bookmarklet of some sort
01:28:03 <elliott_> that redirects to a data: URI of an HTML page with all the downloaded posts
01:28:16 <elliott_> apart from that it'd just be some jquery to select the elements
01:28:23 <elliott_> that's the path of least resistance, anyway
01:28:46 <CakeProphet> so... jquery, or browser automation, or bookmarklet... got it.
01:29:05 <CakeProphet> I was going to try rolling my own, but then I viewed page source for a Facebook page. The horror.
01:29:12 <elliott_> CakeProphet: jquery bookmarklet
01:29:15 <elliott_> that was a combined suggestion
01:29:32 <elliott_> easy to click a "more" link with jquery, easy to find all wall posts on the page with jquery
01:29:37 <elliott_> then it's just building an html result page and using a data: uri
01:29:45 <elliott_> and all login etc. is handled for you by the user
01:29:56 <CakeProphet> elliott_: ah, yes using Javascript to traverse the DOM is probably the best solution, aside from an automation plugin of some kind.
01:30:40 <CakeProphet> Excellent. Thank you for the suggestion. :)
01:31:03 <elliott_> yeah, you'll still need to click all the "more" links first though, since there's a limited number per page :)
01:31:11 -!- ajf has changed nick to ajf|offline.
01:31:55 <CakeProphet> elliott_: didn't you say jquery could handle that though?
01:32:05 <elliott_> well, jquery just makes the dom manipulation a bit less tedious
01:32:19 <elliott_> and clicking a link and waiting for more elements to appear is certainly dom manipulation :)
01:32:24 <CakeProphet> so as long as I can find the right element then I can "click" on it.
01:33:45 <CakeProphet> elliott_: so this would just be a standalone script that just loads a DOM and then uses jquery with it?
01:33:58 <elliott_> CakeProphet: No, just make it a bookmarklet (javascript: URI)
01:34:40 <elliott_> Well, yeah; minify the javascript first :P
01:34:55 <elliott_> CakeProphet: The data: URI result pages will be massive too.
01:34:57 <elliott_> But Firefox can cope with that.
01:35:01 <elliott_> If they use IE, kill yourself.
01:35:48 <elliott_> Just renames variables, does some minor code compression, things like that
01:36:05 -!- calamari has joined.
01:37:22 <CakeProphet> elliott_: okay, so what if they don't want a result page, but instead want all of the files in a directory? I could just save the result page right?
01:37:37 <elliott_> Well, is this for them to use directly, or do they just want the end result?
01:37:42 <CakeProphet> (I'm assuming they're not going to know how that works, so I'll probably have to do it for them)
01:37:52 <elliott_> Yeah, you could just Ctrl+S it and zip it up.
01:37:59 <elliott_> Well, no need for zipping, it'll be one file.
01:38:11 <elliott_> You might want to include the Facebook CSS and have their profile image there to make it look more like the "real thing".
01:38:19 <CakeProphet> elliott_: stupid question, actually. I know what I'll do.
01:38:36 <elliott_> CakeProphet: I take it you're not archiving comments and the like too?
01:38:40 <CakeProphet> elliott_: nah I don't think they care, but that would be super fancy.
01:39:00 <CakeProphet> elliott_: no from my understanding it's just particular things they've linked or uploaded or... something.
01:39:18 <elliott_> People who use Facebook are weird. :p
01:39:19 <CakeProphet> yeah I'll need to talk to the person in question.
01:40:09 <CakeProphet> they apparently want to make a book out of something.. so... maybe they have a bunch of "notes"? That would make things easier.
01:40:21 <elliott_> LIKE EVERYONE WHO USES FACEBOOK
01:40:38 <elliott_> CakeProphet: To be honest, you could even just click the more link a bunch of times manually and then Ctrl+S their Facebook page :-)
01:41:06 <CakeProphet> ...but God, I'd have to click that at least 100 times.
01:42:25 <elliott_> Oh my god just place the fucking girder jesus
01:48:23 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
02:07:00 -!- Sgeo has joined.
02:15:40 <oerjan> and a qwerty morning to you too
02:16:42 <elliott_> Sgeo is SO UNSURE about playing Worms
02:17:33 <oerjan> squirming around, is he?
02:19:12 <elliott_> 19:32:29: <fizzie> Apologies for the crudeness, but I just misread Deewiant's comment as "combinatorial explosion of testicles". That sounded painful.
02:19:58 <elliott_> Sgeo: I'm playing with an idiot and he types in all-caps and plays terribly halp.
02:20:10 <Sgeo> elliott_, and I'd be better/
02:20:48 <elliott_> Sgeo: well you don't type in all-caps.
02:22:36 <elliott_> oerjan: hmm, can /any/ CPS core language be fully lazy? I think not, since you'd need all functions to start with "k ...", which, in CPS form, would only apply to functions that return a literal directly
02:24:06 <Sgeo> Dangit I accidentally /cleared
02:24:35 <monqy> how do you accidentally /clear and why does it matter
02:25:30 <elliott_> monqy: you typo / then c then l then e then a then r then enter
02:26:53 <elliott_> oerjan: although a cps language does have several benefits as far as efficient machine code goes... :(
02:27:54 <oerjan> also, http://www.theonion.com/articles/nation-down-to-last-hundred-grownups,20491/
02:28:21 <elliott_> oerjan: you're just saying "knoweth not" to get me to shut up :D
02:28:36 <oerjan> elliott_ knoweth too much
02:30:24 <Sgeo> I take it "either/or" in English is XOR?
02:32:28 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe I should use a snooper instead
02:32:32 <Sgeo> Of opening W:A
02:32:38 <variable> elliott_: btw. Ben Laurie of Google has an excellent explanation of what I found to be wrong with BitCoin
02:32:38 <Sgeo> Oh can' t host that way
02:33:01 <elliott_> Sgeo: You also can't play that way.
02:33:03 <variable> I know a while ago I mentioned disliking it but didn't have time to defend myself. BenL is doing a great job IMHO
02:33:14 <elliott_> Sgeo: I'm not sure what compelled you to consider that.
02:33:18 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
02:33:47 <elliott_> variable: I haven't done anything with BitCoin for quite a while; maybe I'll check it out later
02:34:19 <variable> elliott_: I only mention it now because when I first brought it you you disliked the fact that I didn't defend my dislike
02:34:32 <variable> and I found someone who happens to be doing the job for me ;-)
02:35:10 <SgeoN1> I though we we're going to do hard tube trap
02:36:17 <Patashu> 'or, not both' is the shortest unambiguous XOR I can think of
02:36:24 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:36:43 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
02:41:53 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
02:44:26 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:44:48 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
02:47:58 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .).
02:51:24 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:51:38 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
02:56:36 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:03:28 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
03:05:31 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:05:43 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
03:18:13 -!- sebbu has joined.
03:18:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
03:18:13 -!- sebbu has joined.
03:18:42 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:21:17 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
03:23:38 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
03:23:38 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:23:58 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
03:24:26 -!- jix has quit (Quit: leaving).
03:51:32 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
03:51:32 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host).
03:51:32 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
03:57:43 -!- ralc has joined.
04:03:40 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:04:11 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
04:05:44 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:06:08 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
04:08:04 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:11:16 -!- ralc has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:13:08 <elliott_> oerjan: hey i need some more curryrelated help ;D
04:13:14 <elliott_> fixp :: (Double -> Double -> Double) -> Shiro ()
04:13:15 <elliott_> fixp f = binary (floor . (*10000) . f . (/10000) . fromIntegral)
04:13:17 <elliott_> /both/ values have to be divided
04:14:40 <oerjan> you know making things pointfree is much easier for me if i can start with a correct version which is _not_ pointfree
04:15:18 <oerjan> than from a broken pointfree version
04:15:47 <elliott_> (\a b -> floor (10000 * f ((fromIntegral a)/10000) (same shit for b)))))))))
04:18:11 <oerjan> :t ((floor . (*10000)) .) . (?f `on` ((/10000) . fromIntegral))
04:18:12 <lambdabot> forall b a a1 a2. (RealFrac a, Integral b, ?f::a1 -> a1 -> a, Fractional a1, Integral a2) => a2 -> a2 -> b
04:20:18 <lambdabot> The operator `Data.Function.on' [infixl 0] of a section
04:20:43 <oerjan> :t ((floor . (*10000)) .) . ?f `on` ((/10000) . fromIntegral)
04:20:43 <lambdabot> forall b a a1 a2. (RealFrac a, Integral b, ?f::a1 -> a1 -> a, Fractional a1, Integral a2) => a2 -> a2 -> b
04:20:50 -!- AerobicRobot has joined.
04:21:48 <oerjan> what, removing the parentheses?
04:24:03 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
04:24:19 -!- AerobicRobot has quit (Client Quit).
04:27:18 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
04:28:07 <elliott_> oerjan: i guess that version is ok :P
04:28:32 <Sgeo> elliott_, should we quit?
04:29:07 <elliott_> oerjan: i actualyl only need an unary version
04:32:25 <oerjan> ...what's with this being cryptic lately :P
04:32:32 <elliott_> oerjan: um im just lazy and tired
04:32:50 <oerjan> using Control.Exception, i think
04:33:08 <elliott_> they're not IOExceptions, right?
04:34:08 <oerjan> do i look like i've ever used them...
04:34:10 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:34:28 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
04:34:49 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Client Quit).
04:38:29 <oerjan> you'd imagine ErrorCall would be related
04:39:20 <elliott_> oerjan: i think i'll bug you about core forms instead, before i go to bed
04:41:43 <elliott_> oerjan: like um core language things
04:43:13 <elliott_> (f x = g (ha x) (hb x)) --> f = \x|k. k (\|k. ha x (\hax. k ...........))
04:44:04 <oerjan> ...is that some strange hybrid of lambda and ski calculus
04:45:36 <elliott_> no, | was denoting a continuation argument
04:45:49 <elliott_> I was thinking that you could do CPS if you just returned /immediately/ with a thunk
04:45:57 <elliott_> and that thunk would then do one CPS-step when called, and return another thunk, etc.
04:46:04 <elliott_> but that actually just sounds stupid in retrospect.
04:48:05 <elliott_> hey oerjan should i go to// bed
04:48:50 <oerjan> ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZz what?
04:49:28 <elliott_> sometimes i feel like oerjan doesn't take these conversations seriously.
04:50:28 <elliott_> haven't you just woken up or something
04:50:39 <oerjan> no, i'm about to sleep soon
04:56:40 <elliott_> thats kind of a weird idea, maybe i should too?
04:59:16 <elliott_> On Saturday morning, Espinoza, 60, received a phone call from her father, Harold Camping, the 89-year-old Oakland preacher who has spent some $100 million — and countless hours on his radio and TV show — announcing May 21 as Judgment Day. "He just said, 'I'm a little bewildered that it didn't happen, but it's still May 21 [in the United States],'" Espinoza said, standing in the doorway of her Alameda home. "It's going to be May 21 from now until m
04:59:57 <elliott_> ?tell Vorpal http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-rapture-20110522,0,5118540.story
05:01:11 <elliott_> oerjan: what time is it over there in new zealand dude??
05:01:14 <elliott_> arent you guys like upsdie down
05:35:43 <Sgeo> I was looking at a Homestruck video on YouTube (stupid I know)
05:35:57 <Sgeo> And just saw a major spoiler in the thumbnail of another video
05:55:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
05:55:57 -!- elliott_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
06:00:00 <Sgeo> Took 500 mg Tylenol.
06:09:20 <Sgeo> It's for me that I write that, not you
06:16:01 <Sgeo> The Salvation War sounds fun
06:19:23 <Sgeo> The reviews on TV Tropes aren't that great
06:33:33 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
06:36:35 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
07:07:02 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
07:07:36 -!- aloril has joined.
07:20:38 <coppro> the apocaplyse isn't until october, remember?
07:20:55 <pikhq_> Oh, right, just the *rapture*.
07:21:11 <pikhq_> And *arguably* there's still 4 hours 40 minutes left for it to happen.
07:21:27 <pikhq_> (May 22, 2011 is 4 hours away in UTC-12)
07:21:49 <pikhq_> (no human habitations are in UTC-12)
07:22:04 <Sgeo> I plan on being asleep for that
07:22:31 <Sgeo> My Rapture-but-not-May-21st believing friend is still here
07:23:03 <pikhq_> What evidence does your friend have for the idea of the rapture?
07:23:13 <monqy> does anyone still believe in rapture yesterday
07:23:14 <pikhq_> Beyond citing the Bible, which is a load of bullshit.
07:23:34 <pikhq_> monqy: Harold Camping still has a few more hours until he can give up on it.
07:24:00 <pikhq_> monqy: May 21 has yet to end in a handful of time zones.
07:24:14 <Sgeo> Harold Camping has yet to be heard from
07:24:15 <monqy> rapture happened and I'm just dreaming
07:26:13 <Sgeo> HC doesn't get any money from me listening to the station, does he?
07:27:01 <monqy> are you listening to the station
07:27:40 <pikhq_> Sgeo: No, they run on donations.
07:27:52 <pikhq_> So long as you don't hand them money, you're good.
07:28:31 <Sgeo> I still want to unspoil myself from Homestuck
07:35:10 <pikhq_> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Today%27s_featured_article/May_22,_2011 :D
07:53:19 <pikhq_> http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/hgsvd/the_creepiest_motherson_relationship_on_youtube/ I wanted to sleep. Now I doubt I will. Fuuuck.
07:54:59 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
07:55:11 <monqy> I'll never sleep again
07:56:41 <cheater897> freenode: 39846 channels and nothing on
07:56:59 <Sgeo> cheater897, they've all been taken in the Rapture. We're the only ones left.
07:58:38 * cheater897 goes to inhabit the prez suite at the local Hilton
07:59:51 <Sgeo> "Provides evidence from archaeology, [...], and even the Bible itself!" -- on how to know the Bible is true
08:01:25 <coppro> at least they're honest about it: http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/epic-fail-photos-oddly-specific-keeping-pulling-that-wool.jpg
08:02:13 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Heck, not even one of the most memorable and publicised events in the Old Testament has any evidence for it...
08:02:20 <pikhq_> Sgeo: There is literally no evidence of the Exodus.
08:02:57 <pikhq_> To Christians, that probably doesn't seem like *that* huge of a deal (a bit upsetting, but not earth-shattering).
08:03:20 <Sgeo> I remember reading something suggesting that ancestors of the Jews were oppressors in Egypt, and were pushed out?
08:03:33 <Sgeo> Also, to Jews, Exodus not being real would be... u
08:03:34 <pikhq_> To Jews, that's like saying "Yeah, sorry, there's no evidence of the Holocaust. Seriously, we checked."
08:04:55 <pikhq_> (except for the veracity of the claim, of course. There's metric fucktons of evidence for the Holocaust.)
08:05:15 <Sgeo> My mom: "If there is no God, who parted the Red Sea?"
08:05:22 <Sgeo> (a long time ago)
08:06:27 <pikhq_> Well, since the Exodus didn't happen (near as we can tell, the Jewish people have pretty much been in Israel since they started leaving artifacts), clearly nobody did.
08:06:43 <Sgeo> Note: Dead people do not become perfect in every way after they die. My step-mom keeps using "Your mom would have wanted you to XYZ" to try to get me to XYZ
08:07:06 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure she's wrong about what my mom would have wanted, but even if not, how does that make a difference to whether I agree with XYZ or not?
08:07:11 <pikhq_> That's some damned poor reasoning. Not to mention in *very poor taste*.
08:07:57 <pikhq_> Why not exhume your mom's body and use it as a puppet? About as tasteless and macabre, IMO.
08:08:58 <pikhq_> ... Oh, wait, some people have done similar things. Fuck. Fuck humanity so much.
08:09:27 <monqy> is necrophilia close enough
08:09:42 <pikhq_> I was thinking of the Cadaver Synod, actually.
08:10:13 <pikhq_> Where a pope put his predecessor on trial. By exhuming the body.
08:11:19 <monqy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_posthumous_executions ooh
08:11:50 <pikhq_> Fuck, Homo sapiens. You scary.
08:11:51 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
08:12:35 <Sgeo> Hey, Homo sapiens can be awesome sometimes
08:12:59 <Sgeo> We eradicated two diseases.
08:13:16 <pikhq_> Yes, it has moments of genuine awesomeness and genuine horrificness.
08:16:30 <Sgeo> "If you think you may have been exposed to smallpox, contact your health care provider immediately."
08:17:07 <Sgeo> Ok, I pulled that out of context
08:17:16 <Sgeo> "If you think you may have been exposed to smallpox, contact your health care provider immediately. Because smallpox has been wiped out this would be very unlikely, unless you have worked with the virus in a laboratory or there has been an act of bioterrorism."
08:18:20 <pikhq_> I wouldn't contact my health care provider.
08:18:44 <pikhq_> And probably the local police dispatch.
08:19:31 <monqy> invite everyone you want to die to your home for a big party
08:24:56 <Sgeo> Ok, this is a beautiful melody
08:24:59 <Sgeo> And no lyrics so far
08:25:07 <Sgeo> As A Deer by Carol McClure
08:25:18 <Sgeo> (Note: Probably a Christian song.. I'd assume
08:25:42 <pikhq_> Almost certainly. An adaptation of the psalm, no doubt.
08:27:34 <Sgeo> Still no lyrics
08:27:56 <Sgeo> Didn't realize there was a psalm
08:31:38 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
08:37:17 * Sgeo slaps the SAB person
08:37:28 <Sgeo> Someone should really just write some code to make his life easier
08:37:36 <Sgeo> "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."
08:37:36 <Sgeo> According to Conservapedia's Conservative Bible Project, Jesus never said these words. They are a liberal coruption of the text. "This quotation is a favorite of liberals but should not appear in a conservative Bible." 23:34
08:37:40 <Sgeo> http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/interp/by_book.html
08:37:44 <Sgeo> That's in the wrong book
08:46:55 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
08:52:17 <Zwaarddijk> Sgeo: the skeptics annotated bible sometimes chalcs things up to be errors that aren't
08:52:41 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:53:08 -!- sebbu has joined.
08:53:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
08:53:08 -!- sebbu has joined.
08:54:39 -!- augur has joined.
08:59:45 -!- Vorpal has joined.
09:02:41 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
09:06:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
09:19:39 -!- ajf|offline has changed nick to ajf.
09:24:41 -!- ajf has changed nick to ajfafk.
09:29:06 -!- cheater897 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
09:44:56 -!- olsner_ has joined.
09:49:31 -!- sebbu has joined.
09:49:31 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
09:49:31 -!- sebbu has joined.
09:52:47 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
09:54:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
10:13:13 -!- olsner_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:29:27 -!- Patashu has joined.
10:29:49 -!- Tritonio has joined.
10:36:58 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, feel free to slap me
10:37:17 * Phantom_Hoover slaps Sgeo more on principle than any feelings of malice.
10:37:17 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
10:55:32 <Phantom_Hoover> '“My heart medication!” slowly remembered Dwayne, but his lateness was a stark reality.'
10:56:49 <Phantom_Hoover> 'Mongoose-to-cobra, two serpentine forms, he was my rival; are we fighting in these holes, or are we really making love?'
11:02:39 <Phantom_Hoover> "The intruder attempted to break down the reinforced door with his axe, shouting phrases like “We will get our revenge!”, “Revenge!” and “Blood!”" — WP
11:03:29 -!- FireFly has joined.
11:06:52 <Phantom_Hoover> "Her cheeks were rosy and so was my love — bursting with fragrance and softness."
11:07:36 <Patashu> This is the purple prose award?
11:08:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Bulwer-Lytton is the one that rewards overtly purple prose, and is as such horrendously verbose and dreary to read.
11:08:47 <Phantom_Hoover> The Lyttle Lytton is restricted to 30 words, so the scope for purpleness is reduced vastly.
11:09:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Most of the ones that rely on language just have really weird sentence structure.
11:10:11 <Phantom_Hoover> There used to be a category for it, but I think he dropped it.
11:10:53 * Phantom_Hoover scorns at Sgeo "what did you do to merit me slapping you, BtW?"
11:11:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Patashu, also, that example was from an English textbook/
11:11:22 <Sgeo> Accidentally glimpse at a major Homestuck spoiler
11:11:39 <Patashu> From a textbook, not from a student?
11:36:40 -!- ralc has joined.
12:14:47 -!- ajfafk has changed nick to ajf.
12:20:05 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .).
12:42:56 -!- f0reest has joined.
12:43:00 -!- f0reest has quit (Client Quit).
13:06:18 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
13:09:37 -!- Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
13:26:44 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving).
14:00:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:02:00 -!- oerjan has joined.
14:02:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god my cat seems to have heard some birds outside the window.
14:04:07 <oerjan> <Sgeo> It's for me that I write that, not you
14:04:19 <oerjan> #esoteric: Sgeo's personal drug diary
14:10:13 <oerjan> <pikhq_> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Today%27s_featured_article/May_22,_2011 :D
14:10:26 <oerjan> certainly looks like someone took a little jab, there
14:15:50 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:24:57 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Patashu, also, that example was from an English textbook/
14:25:27 <oerjan> wait are you performing a lyttle lytton analogue to poe's law/turing test here
14:32:28 <Vorpal> <oerjan> #esoteric: Sgeo's personal drug diary <-- I can't imagine Sgeo's father allowing him to use drugs ;P
14:32:28 <lambdabot> Vorpal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:45:57 <oerjan> Vorpal: the word "drug" in english includes legal pharmaceuticals
14:47:25 <oerjan> of the kind that sgeo's father might very well allow, being afair a medical doctor
14:48:52 -!- olsner has joined.
14:59:20 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
15:06:27 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> wait are you performing a lyttle lytton analogue to poe's law/turing test here
15:06:44 <Phantom_Hoover> No, the Found category is a long-established Lyttle Lytton tradition.
15:20:02 <Vorpal> <oerjan> Vorpal: the word "drug" in english includes legal pharmaceuticals <-- oh right
15:21:50 <olsner> Vorpal: aka "dödsknark"
15:24:55 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Daemon escaped from pentagram).
15:31:43 <Vorpal> olsner, not familiar with that expression
15:32:13 <olsner> Vorpal: alla sorters droger, knark och medicin är dödsknark
15:32:56 <Vorpal> olsner, jag umgås nog inte i sådana kretsar. :P
15:47:57 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:56:15 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
16:16:18 -!- elliott has joined.
16:16:29 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:16:57 <elliott> two of those are from days ago lol
16:20:05 -!- monqy has joined.
16:28:31 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
16:39:31 <ais523> hmm, amusing spambot name (that just emailed me): globalfreedomreliableloanfirm
16:44:11 -!- olsner has joined.
16:45:25 <ais523> I don't particularly want a loan right now, legit or not
16:52:26 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
16:52:35 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
16:54:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:00:48 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:01:41 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
17:05:12 -!- ralc has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:15:37 -!- augur has joined.
17:30:40 <elliott> "So far GNU Parallel has been focused on
17:30:40 <elliott> replacing a single for-loop. The Pakistan release introduces ways to
17:36:04 <pikhq> GNU Parallel is actually fairly nice.
17:41:41 <elliott> grr, there are two competing adblocks for chrome
17:42:31 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
17:43:08 <fizzie> What, are they doing the ash cloud thing *again*?
17:43:32 <elliott> pikhq: But that's just a renamed AdThwart, and the plain AdBlock is more popular.
17:43:38 <elliott> I mean, sure, brand name and all, but still.
17:44:18 -!- pingveno has joined.
17:44:40 <pikhq> Neither of them can block ads in flash videos, though.
17:44:55 <elliott> I thought that was recently made sort of possible.
17:45:17 <elliott> Mainly I'm pissed off at interstitials and the ads /before/ videos (the ones that pop up are annoying but not nearly as much).
17:45:27 <elliott> I guess the latter are a kind of interstitial too.
17:46:06 <Vorpal> anyone remembers how you minimise boolean expressions for NOR gates? I can only remember how you do it for NAND gates, not NOR gates
17:47:07 <Vorpal> <fizzie> What, are they doing the ash cloud thing *again*? <-- yeah it was such a hit last time!
17:47:43 <elliott> pikhq: Any actual arguments in favour of the Plus one? :-P
17:47:59 <pikhq> elliott: Eh, just use Firefox. :P
17:48:26 <elliott> pikhq: I just stopped using Firefox yet again because it starts to freeze up terribly when you have hundreds of tabs with JS and sometimes Flash running in them.
17:48:37 <fizzie> But I need to fly tomorrow and back next Saturday. :/ (Tomorrow doesn't seem to be a problem yet, but who knows about Sat.)
17:49:46 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> anyone remembers how you minimise boolean expressions for NOR gates? I can only remember how you do it for NAND gates, not NOR gates
17:49:50 <elliott> <Vorpal> <Vorpal> anyone remembers how you minimise boolean expressions for NOR gates? I can only remember how you do it for NAND gates, not NOR gates
17:50:21 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, no one replied, I'll try to find that textbook I have on this sort of thing
17:50:44 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, no one replied, I'll try to find that textbook I have on this sort of thing
17:51:01 <fizzie> (There's http://www.icassp2011.com/ in El Praguel next week.)
17:51:21 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you echoing me?
17:51:26 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, why are you echoing me?
17:51:30 <elliott> (<Vorpal> <Vorpal> anyone remembers how you minimise boolean expressions for NOR gates? I can only remember how you do it for NAND gates, not NOR gates)
17:51:37 <elliott> <elliott> (<Vorpal> <Vorpal> anyone remembers how you minimise boolean expressions for NOR gates? I can only remember how you do it for NAND gates, not NOR gates)
17:51:50 <elliott> fizzie: Are you going to finally admit to them that speech recognition is useless?
17:51:57 <elliott> And you've wasted your life?
17:52:43 * pikhq wonders why Apple's blocks don't let you copy the block into arbitrary memory at all...
17:53:03 <pikhq> The library manages the heap, with no option for you to hook into it.
17:53:15 <pikhq> Making it impossible to do garbage-collected blocks.
17:54:24 <Vorpal> oh right, you want it on PS-form, then double invert. oh well
17:56:55 <Vorpal> anyone know a good tool for simplification of boolean expressions?
17:57:16 <Vorpal> I guess ghdl could perhaps be abused for it, if it does simplification
17:57:45 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but how do you get it to give you something on NOR-NOR form
17:58:18 <elliott> There's http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/ref/BooleanConvert.html
17:58:25 <elliott> And "X in Y form" invokes it in W|A, it seems.
17:58:43 <elliott> Hmm, there is also http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/ref/BooleanMinimize.html
17:58:49 <Vorpal> I have mathematica so..
17:59:02 <elliott> Not that it's a "hard" task. :p
17:59:14 <Vorpal> elliott, hard task to do by hand? no indeed
17:59:51 <Vorpal> elliott, but for 7 output signals and 4 input signals to each it is quite tedious. Especially if you want to try each in NOR-NOR and NAND-NAND to figure out which one is smallest
18:00:22 <Vorpal> (I'm planning out a 7-segment display in MC)
18:00:46 <elliott> I mean, writing a program to do it.
18:01:12 <Vorpal> elliott, I may need it anyway since I'd like to ignore all values above 9 for input. Easy to do when doing it by hand
18:01:53 <Vorpal> or I guess the third form of it does that
18:03:26 <Vorpal> ah for BooleanFunction there is " * Elements of inputs and outputs can also include any number of , representing "don't cares"."
18:04:14 <elliott> You mean... a built-in Mathematica function does EXACTLY what you want?
18:04:37 <Vorpal> elliott, was that sarcasm?
18:04:55 <Vorpal> elliott, but yes as far as I can tell from the docs it does exactly what I want
18:05:00 <Lymia> elliott, was that sarcasm?
18:05:25 <Lymia> elliott, but was that sarcasm?
18:05:42 <Lymia> elliott, but was that last line sarcasm?
18:05:53 <Lymia> Phantom_Hoover, I was waiting for that.
18:06:03 <Lymia> And what elliott said.
18:06:19 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> I N C E P T I O N <-- I don't get it. Is this some new meme?
18:06:23 <Vorpal> I seen it in a few places
18:06:24 <ais523> Vorpal: it's quite an old meme
18:06:39 <Vorpal> ais523, why has it cropped up a lot recently then hm
18:06:42 <elliott> It was lame on about its third use, tbh.
18:06:47 <olsner> Vorpal: wtf, how can you not know about that meme?
18:06:49 <elliott> Or else you just started reading reddit or something.
18:07:00 <Vorpal> so what is that meme about
18:07:28 <elliott> (The morale of the film is that recursion blows idiots' minds.)
18:08:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:15:18 <tswett> The United States' bicycle path network is the patchiest thing in existence.
18:16:00 <tswett> It's patchier than the discrete topological space of all ordinal numbers in the von Neumann universe of an inaccessible cardinal.
18:16:23 <elliott> It's patchier than Windows on the Tuesday after a critical exploit is revealed.
18:17:32 <pikhq> Its sidewalks aren't much better.
18:18:26 <tswett> Yeah, what's up with the lack of sidewalks along some roads?
18:19:10 <pikhq> Americans don't walk, so they don't bother designing to allow Americans to walk, so Americans don't walk.
18:19:35 <tswett> To be fair, there are some places where people are simply unlikely to walk.
18:20:21 <pikhq> The whole of American urban design is pedestrian-unfriendly.
18:21:09 <pikhq> In large part because of the very, very low population density created by it.
18:21:36 <tswett> I guess the US is pretty sparse.
18:22:23 <tswett> Really, guys, this running gag has gone on too long.
18:22:57 <tswett> Nice try, you... NATIONALITY LIAR.
18:23:46 <pikhq> tswett: Let me put it this way: if I were to start driving east, I'd reach the next major city in 9 hours.
18:24:02 <tswett> pikhq: from where you are right now?
18:24:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm afraid that BooleanMinimize didn't do quite what I wanted however
18:24:26 <pikhq> Driving *west*, it'd be all of 15 minutes.
18:24:33 <tswett> Are you... in the United States right now?
18:24:37 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, hey, that's only about twice the time it takes for me to move a total distance of...
18:25:15 <elliott> tswett: Do you have running water over there in Australia?
18:25:21 <Phantom_Hoover> OK Google maps why don't you let me know distances as the crow flies.
18:25:36 <tswett> elliott: I get my water from a well.
18:25:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: because crows have no sense of direction.
18:25:42 <elliott> tswett: Your internet, too?
18:25:53 <tswett> It's really easy to access the groundwater, since it just falls out.
18:25:57 <elliott> Just drop an Ethernet cable down the well and hook it up to your computer.
18:26:05 <tswett> No, our Internet comes from cables.
18:26:20 <tswett> We have a bunch of cables in our basement or something. They make the Internet.
18:26:30 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Wow, that would take me like 2 or 3 hours.
18:27:08 <pikhq> And I would not be able to leave the state.
18:27:56 <tswett> Looks like if you were to drive north from where I am now, you'd reach the next major city... never.
18:28:04 <Phantom_Hoover> 3 hours would take me to the west coast and a bit along it.
18:28:13 <tswett> Unless Sault Ste. Marie is a major city.
18:28:31 <pikhq> Driving north, I could get to the next major city in about an hour and a half...
18:28:54 <pikhq> And past that, I'd reach the north fucking pole before hitting a major city again.
18:29:09 * tswett looks at Sault Ste. Marie on a map and is amused.
18:29:48 <pikhq> (I wouldn't even be able to hit a major city in Canada, as what's north of me there is Saskatchewan, the Northwest Territories, and Nunavut)
18:29:56 <Vorpal> elliott, btw BooleanFunction didn't quite what I expected, the BooleanFunction[vars] form took the list of values starting from 111... rather than from 000...
18:30:56 <pikhq> Yes, you could drive north from Denver and not hit a major city ever.
18:31:06 <tswett> No, I'm definitely Finnish.
18:31:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If I became Australian would that make you more happy?
18:31:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Depending on how you define 'major', I could probably drive any direction other than west and never reach a major city.
18:31:52 <pikhq> That's 39° of driving.
18:32:00 <elliott> Vorpal: obviously I mean indigenous.
18:32:05 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I'm allowing some latitude for directions, actually.
18:32:40 <pikhq> Though I suppose I could go approx. northwest or northeast and hit Chicago or Seattle.
18:32:46 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, does a population of 200,000 count as major for you?
18:33:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, to me that would be rather large
18:33:16 <pikhq> 22 hours to Seattle, 16 to Chicago.
18:33:19 <elliott> cities are agents of flour and ice
18:34:03 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: That's not a terribly large city.
18:34:20 <pikhq> I suppose it could?
18:34:49 <pikhq> Vorpal: I'm in a city of 600,000 and I consider it small.
18:35:14 <Vorpal> pikhq, major city would be >100,000 to me
18:36:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, what do you count as major then
18:36:46 <pikhq> Oh, I suppose 500,000+ could barely count as "major". Though the ones people actually think of are going to be at least 1,000,000+.
18:36:57 <fizzie> Our largest city has a population of 588941, so... (Though seriously you can count the whole Helsinki/Espoo/Vantaa region as a one "place", which then barely manages to clear the million-people mark.)
18:37:13 <elliott> Scandinavia is sparsely-populated? REALLY???????
18:37:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, if you go for 1,000,000+... Sweden has exactly one major city
18:37:34 <pikhq> Also, I consider city size to be more a matter of metropolitan region size.
18:38:11 <pikhq> (because city boundaries tend to be completely and utterly arbitrary and have nothing to do with what the urban area is)
18:38:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Sounds right to me.
18:38:54 <pikhq> For instance, the city of Denver has 600,000, but the metro area has 2.5 million.
18:39:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, for the one million inhabitants city of Sweden (Stockholm) that would include suburbs.
18:39:41 <pikhq> And the city of New York has 8.1 million, but the metro area has 18.8 million.
18:39:45 <Vorpal> I guess that is what you mean with metro area
18:39:53 <fizzie> Yay, in that case we have a single major city too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Helsinki
18:41:07 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm lists three population figures: "City" 851155, "Urban" 1252020 and "Metro" 2063945.
18:41:12 <Vorpal> ! (a \[Nor] b \[Nor] ! c \[Nor] d)
18:41:22 <Vorpal> that is a weird way to write it out when I copy it
18:41:28 <pikhq> fizzie: "Metro" counts the suburbs surrounding it.
18:41:38 <elliott> Vorpal: It's so it can reconstruct the original expression.
18:41:42 <elliott> (Mathematica expressions aren't plain text.)
18:41:45 <pikhq> "Urban" is just the single urban area.
18:42:00 <pikhq> "City" is the population within the legal notion of "the city of Stockholm".
18:42:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well, anyway, it is also a weird way to write the whole thing out. I would have written it as (a+b+c'+d)' or such
18:42:12 <Lymia> Is that !(a nor b nor !c nor d)?
18:42:42 <pikhq> The distinction is especially comical in the case of London.
18:42:43 <tswett> Lymia: what else would it be?
18:42:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Well it can't just use something that looks "nice" since it has to have global meaning.
18:42:54 <Vorpal> Lymia, I think it must be (a'+b+c'+d)'
18:42:54 <elliott> Isn't ' a string in Mathematica? Maybe not.
18:42:57 <tswett> You replaced "\[Nor]" with "nor" and removed spaces.
18:43:06 <Vorpal> elliott, well okay but apart from that
18:43:07 <pikhq> 11,500 people live in the City of London. 12 million live in the metro area.
18:43:28 <elliott> Vorpal: OK, so you're claiming that + is a better operator for nor than... the nor symbol?
18:43:38 <Lymia> tswett, I thought Mathematica's syntax was "Command[Args,ARgs]"
18:43:48 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm just more used to it being written like that in digital logic
18:44:04 <elliott> Lymia: It has binary operators too.
18:44:09 <Vorpal> ! a \[Nand] ! b \[Nand] c \[Nand] ! d
18:44:31 <pikhq> Damned City of London being only a square mile.
18:44:38 <Lymia> tswett, just making sure that those are indeed meant as infix operators.
18:45:03 <Vorpal> I think the nand one will be easier to realise in mc after all
18:46:04 <Lymia> I thought redstone torches were NOR gates.
18:46:18 <Vorpal> Lymia, inverters actually
18:46:20 <Lymia> The nor one would be easier to build, right?
18:46:27 <Lymia> Vorpal, try it with more than one input.
18:46:57 <Lymia> Where T is a torch attached to #
18:46:59 <Vorpal> Lymia, a single nor is easier to build by far yes, but I can't have current going back up the input signals here. And I have 4 input signals
18:47:45 <Vorpal> Lymia, I mean, an non-isolating OR gate is just redstone merging after all. If you want to isolate the inputs you need something more complex
18:47:54 <Vorpal> same sort of thing here
18:48:07 <pikhq> elliott: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:LondonCity.svg
18:48:19 <elliott> what's actually inside the city of london :D
18:48:29 <elliott> oh, it's the dense-as-fuck centre
18:48:31 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/London_from_the_air.jpg
18:49:00 <pikhq> The area across the Thames is not part of the City.
18:49:04 <Lymia> Vorpal, http://pastebin.com/akw5i0Kn
18:49:05 <Lymia> Can't you do that?
18:49:28 <Lymia> There's likely a more compact version too.
18:49:28 <pikhq> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:City_of_London_map_01.svg
18:49:35 <Vorpal> Lymia, possibly, but then I can't share a gate with another output
18:49:46 <elliott> pikhq: A picture would be nicer than a map.
18:49:46 <pikhq> Essentially a few *blocks* of the ultra-dense center.
18:49:48 <Vorpal> Lymia, gate sharing complicates things immensely
18:49:55 <Phantom_Hoover> <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: That's not a terribly large city.
18:50:03 <Vorpal> Lymia, I'd like a mc backend for some vhdl or verilog software :D
18:50:05 <elliott> Vorpal: got anything like this in sweden? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/London_from_the_air.jpg
18:50:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Then yes, I could drive literally any direction but west and I'd reach the sea or a border before a major city.
18:50:17 <Lymia> Vorpal, I would try to code that.
18:50:28 <Lymia> But I don't think I know nearly enough theory of how that stuff works.
18:50:34 <Lymia> Much less practice.
18:50:39 <Vorpal> elliott, no not really, central Stockholm is more picturesque
18:50:44 <tswett> I can drive any direction but toward-a-major-city and I'll reach the sea or a border before a major city.
18:50:58 <Lymia> Phantom_Hoover, how long will THAT take?
18:51:17 <Vorpal> <tswett> I can drive any direction but toward-a-major-city and I'll reach the sea or a border before a major city. <-- hah
18:51:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Lymia, I'm thinking along the lines of reduce everything to NANDs and stick them all into MC.
18:51:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that might not be minimal
18:51:39 <pikhq> elliott: *Basically*, it's the area enclosed within the historical London Wall.
18:51:40 <elliott> Vorpal: "wtf at spelling"?
18:51:42 <Lymia> Arn't redstone torches NOR gates natrually?
18:52:01 <Lymia> Wouldn't it be better to reduce to that?
18:52:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, then there is gate sharing and what not
18:52:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, "brute force" does not exactly carry an air of minimalism.
18:52:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, iirc real software for FPGAs take such a long time to syntesize because they try so many different combinations. I don't think it is brute force as such, but somewhat more intelligent.
18:52:55 <Lymia> Building the gates is the easy part if you ask me.
18:52:56 <fizzie> elliott: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/34/Central_Helsinki_from_plane.jpg It's like ALMOST the same thing.
18:53:14 <Lymia> Routing it, however...
18:53:20 <Vorpal> Lymia, there is that too
18:53:56 <Lymia> How bad would the height limit be for synthesizing stuff?
18:54:00 <elliott> Wow Helsinki is ugly in that picture.
18:54:07 <pikhq> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:26_-_New_York_-_Octobre_2008.jpg For comparison.
18:54:10 <Lymia> How could I catch constructions that I can't build without exceeding the height limit?
18:54:23 <pikhq> Yes, it's skyscrapers out to the horizon.
18:54:28 <Vorpal> elliott, the upper part of http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Stockholm_lead_image.jpg comes close
18:54:43 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, looks like one of the grotty ports in NI I am required to pass through.
18:54:49 <Lymia> I doubt you'd want it covering the entire Y axis.
18:55:06 <elliott> Vorpal: No, it really doesn't.
18:55:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Do you realise the scale of the buildings in the London picture?
18:55:16 <Vorpal> Lymia, throw them away after doing a check?
18:55:20 <fizzie> elliott: It's pretty ugly from the air always; maybe because it's so boringly flat.
18:55:31 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Edinburgh_from_The_Salisbury_Crags._-_geograph.org.uk_-_84623.jpg
18:55:31 <Vorpal> Lymia, actually I'd like mine here to not be too huge
18:55:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: The London picture is depicting ~1 square mile.
18:55:44 <Vorpal> elliott, of course. I was joking
18:55:54 <Vorpal> elliott, just like fizzie was
18:56:14 <Lymia> I guess I could start out with compiling expressions to redstone circults.
18:56:30 <elliott> Lymia: Make it export one of them schematic things for that level editor. :p
18:56:31 <Lymia> def f(a,b,c):a^b^c to redstone.
18:56:37 <Lymia> elliott, that was what I was thinking already.
18:56:43 <elliott> I NOTE HOW EXTREMELY ON TOPIC THIS IS FOR #esoteric-minecraft
18:56:47 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, quick, show us a picture of Hexham so we may laugh.
18:56:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: see wikipedia
18:56:56 <Lymia> If I can do that, then I can think of how to do things more complicated than gates.
18:57:00 <Vorpal> Lymia, routing would indeed be interesting, given the length limits, weird behaviour of repeaters, and so on
18:57:10 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:57:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Pretty much, yes. :p
18:57:20 <yorick> #esoteric: #minecraft for the people freenode considers geeks
18:57:27 <Lymia> Vorpal, might as well as add a piece of code that says "oh shit N/S quirk abort abort abort"
18:57:35 <elliott> yorick: no, that's #esoteric-minecraft
18:57:40 <elliott> WHICH IS WHAT THIS DISCUSSION SHOULD BE IN COUGH COUGH
18:57:40 -!- ZOMGMODULES has joined.
18:57:42 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:57:43 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
18:57:43 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:57:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I like the way they have the exact same picture twice in the article.
18:57:49 <Lymia> How many schematic->world transfers rotate things?
18:57:50 <elliott> see, you'll scare ZOMGMODULES with minecraft talk in here GET IN THE CHANNEL
18:58:11 <ZOMGMODULES> Oh, I'm just here for elliott's opinion on something. DOn't mind me
18:58:23 <Lymia> If they don't, I could have it avoid the N/S quirk when outputing MCRedstoneSim or something.
18:58:26 <Lymia> And use it otherwise.
18:58:28 <Vorpal> Lymia, anyway, my primary interest here is making the logic for a 7-segment display, given BCD input
18:58:34 <Vorpal> this looks like quite a chore
18:59:00 <yorick> someone did this for openttd some time ago (a LED display counter, that is)
18:59:05 <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: please explain the appeal of ooc? <-- note clever use of question mark on non-question
18:59:23 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: but, write Deadfish in it.
18:59:32 <Vorpal> yorick, I know fizzie did some sort of adder or something such in openttd
18:59:36 <Vorpal> I forgot what it was exactly
19:00:04 <fizzie> yorick, Vorpal: Some gates in openttd: http://zem.fi/ttd_logic/
19:00:30 -!- ZOMGMODULES has quit (Client Quit).
19:00:43 <yorick> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=37902 was the display
19:01:43 <yorick> http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2009/01/18/optimization-of-logic-logic-gates-part-ii/ has some gates worked out
19:03:26 <Vorpal> wait, openttd doesn't allow underground networks does it? It just does simple straight tunnels?
19:04:24 <yorick> Vorpal: it just does simple straight tunnels
19:04:45 <Vorpal> yorick, that complicates the logic in openttd certainly
19:04:45 <elliott> You can have magical crossing tunnels though, I gather.
19:04:48 <fizzie> There was some sort of a "tunnels may magically cross" patch.
19:05:02 <elliott> (I don't play, this is log-memory.)
19:05:14 <fizzie> I haven't played in ages either.
19:05:19 <yorick> but yes, it does have magical crossing tunnels
19:05:23 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:05:29 <Vorpal> simutrans is better when it comes to that. You can do complicated underground networks
19:05:50 <Vorpal> no idea if it can do as advanced logic when it comes to signals Probably not
19:05:52 <yorick> simutrans kindof sucks on the networking
19:06:04 <Vorpal> yorick, hm? You mean multiplayer?
19:06:12 <yorick> Vorpal: that too, and the trains
19:06:19 <Vorpal> yorick, how does it suck?
19:06:29 <fizzie> Anyhoo, I couldn't quite figure out logic gates that'd be based on just single-track signals, so I went with two-track logic.
19:07:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
19:07:51 <yorick> Vorpal: the multiplayer is mostly not there
19:08:15 <Vorpal> yorick, right, I'm not really interested in multiplayer for simutrans. So that doesn't bother me
19:10:16 <yorick> about the trains...don't really know
19:11:25 <yorick> the trains in openttd seem much more advanced though
19:18:35 -!- ajf has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:21:43 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:22:13 -!- augur has joined.
19:51:14 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:52:53 <oerjan> ...no ancient lambdabot messages for me
19:55:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, what did you do the diagram on http://zem.fi/ttd_logic/ with?
19:55:05 <oerjan> <Vorpal> anyone remembers how you minimise boolean expressions for NOR gates? I can only remember how you do it for NAND gates, not NOR gates
19:55:23 <Vorpal> oerjan, reducing to PS-form then double inverting
19:55:25 <oerjan> ah. anyway it's obvious how to convert one method to the other
19:55:40 <oerjan> (they're dual operations)
19:55:56 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm does that give minimal expressions?
19:56:21 <oerjan> um is this converting _from_ or _to_ NOR gates?
19:56:54 <Vorpal> oerjan, because NOR-NOR logic is awesome :P
19:56:56 <oerjan> in that case, dualize your expression, minimize it with NAND gates, then switch all NAND to NOW
19:57:10 <Phantom_Hoover> "Not to be confused with Termit, Thermite or Turmite."
19:57:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: Either Inkscape or Dia, I'd guess.
19:57:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah, what is the monospaced stuff just above?
19:57:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, I mean, the syntax
19:58:02 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/ttd_logic/ttd_4adder_dia.png -- based on the file name, I'd guess Dia.
19:58:13 <Vorpal> [Sum, C] = hadd(A, B) {
19:58:28 <fizzie> And the syntax might be just some ad-hoc pseudoish notation for all I know.
19:58:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, hey you wrote this :P
19:58:44 <fizzie> Yes, but it was a while ago. :p
19:59:05 <fizzie> My guess is it's not any "real" notation.
19:59:27 <fizzie> But I probably took the [a, b] = foo(...) notation for multiple outputs out of Matlab/Octave.
20:00:14 <fizzie> (And the S in the middle line for the full adder should be Sum; or alternatively the Sum on the "declaration" line should be S.)
20:01:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, you didn't try to do carry lookahead?
20:01:41 <elliott> I should look in to York Lava I wonder what it compiles to
20:02:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: Nno, the resulting map was already rather large after I had multiplied the generic two-input gate enough times to get a ripple-carry adder in place.
20:06:22 <oerjan> <elliott> tswett: Do you have running water over there in Australia? <-- yeah the water keeps running to get away from the spiders
20:10:20 -!- cheater897 has joined.
20:13:15 <oerjan> shot by a huge jaguar?
20:14:07 <Vorpal> smashed by a hilarious jar?
20:15:06 <olsner> jarred by a smashing hilarity?
20:15:09 <oerjan> severed by aardvark hillbilly jerks
20:15:36 <elliott> oerjan: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/sweetbroandhellajeff/
20:17:04 <oerjan> from today's comic, sweet bro does not seem overly intelligent
20:18:29 <oerjan> hm wait it seems that's the first comic
20:19:36 <elliott> the latest is http://www.mspaintadventures.com/sweetbroandhellajeff/?cid=031.jpg
20:20:00 <oerjan> ...i don't think i'm going to continue after no. 2, actually
20:20:50 <elliott> but then you're missing the masterpiece that isnumber three
20:21:09 <elliott> also number four, and five
20:22:42 <oerjan> ok that was 3 and 4. i don't think i'll ever be high enough to read the rest.
20:23:37 <Vorpal> <oerjan> ...i don't think i'm going to continue after no. 2, actually <-- indeed.
20:24:29 <oerjan> 3 and 4 are not as cross, although even more meaningless (if, i assume, you are not high)
20:24:55 <elliott> hmm where's the prices and values one i think i'll go reread it
20:25:25 <oerjan> elliott: i think i shall put this down to the generation gap
20:25:39 <elliott> oerjan: you _realise_ it's not sincere right :D
20:26:11 <elliott> <Vorpal> <oerjan> ...i don't think i'm going to continue after no. 2, actually <-- indeed.
20:26:13 <elliott> "Whereas reading HS while not studying (yes studying) SBaHJ is less forgivable. SBaHJ is requisite supplementary reading. If HS was a class, I would automatically fail anybody who didn't get an A on their SBaHJ exam."
20:26:16 * oerjan has no idea whether "put this down to" is the right idiom
20:26:54 <oerjan> elliott: what is not sincere? the comic or your praise of it?
20:27:06 <elliott> oerjan: the comic, of course it's sincerely awesome
20:27:26 <oerjan> ok, generation gap it is.
20:28:14 <elliott> it _may_ make more sense in context ;D
20:29:30 <Sgeo_> I am, in fact, only skimming SBaHJ, and only as they're mentioned in HS
20:30:22 <elliott> you're only skimming HS to start with
20:30:38 <elliott> hey Sgeo_ what's the dog's name
20:30:46 <Vorpal> the blurb on http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/guide/BooleanComputation.html is hilarious
20:31:02 <elliott> hey Sgeo_ name some trolls
20:31:03 <Vorpal> "access to the latest in industrial-strength Boolean computation" come on
20:31:38 <Sgeo_> Sollux, Equiunus (not sure sp), Vraska (sp?), Gamzee
20:32:04 <elliott> Says the guy, like, almost done with Hivebent.
20:32:17 <elliott> I'm just going to sit here and cradle my face gently in my palms.
20:32:24 <elliott> With my good old ink-based Bicsprite.
20:32:24 <Sgeo_> Act 5 Part 2 is past hivebend, right?
20:32:43 <elliott> You're on Act Five Act Two and you can only remember two of the trolls' names. I am clapping here.
20:32:56 <elliott> It is the most sarcastic manner in which two hands have ever met at speed before.
20:33:00 <Vorpal> elliott, not everyone is good at remembering names
20:33:35 <elliott> Vorpal: come on, he confused Scratch with another member of the Felt, despite seeing every member of the Felt and Scratch.
20:33:40 <elliott> Notably none of them have a cue ball for a head.
20:34:01 <Vorpal> elliott, who was Scratch now again
20:34:11 <elliott> Have you actually been reading.
20:34:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I just suck utterly at names
20:34:40 <elliott> Just sittin' here, all cradlin' my face.
20:34:47 <elliott> Sgeo_: the point of a /msg is that other people don't see it.
20:35:06 <Sgeo_> elliott, the only reason I didn't want anyone to see it was to avoid spoiling future HS readers in here
20:35:28 <elliott> If Vorpal has at all been keeping up with updates he knows who Scratch is.
20:35:54 <Vorpal> elliott, I haven't been keeping up with updates no
20:36:00 <Vorpal> elliott, been far too busy
20:36:42 <elliott> Vorpal: there have only been 45 pages from the one you finished on because the rate has slowed to a crawl.
20:37:15 <Vorpal> elliott, that is still more than most other comics I read
20:37:49 <elliott> Vorpal: It hasn't been updating anywhere near daily, and one HS panel is less than one normal comic..
20:38:05 <elliott> Shit, there was a 9-day hiatus mere days ago.
20:38:20 <elliott> Well, "hiatus"; Flash work session.
20:39:31 <Sgeo_> Slowed to a crawl?
20:40:28 <elliott> Sgeo_: in that it's not updating at five panels per day like normal.
20:40:53 <elliott> It's all about Bicsprite and his inky adventures in the Land of Paper and Lead.
20:41:02 <elliott> Currently, he is drawing a giraffe.
20:49:17 * oerjan notes how the slow pace of irc is so much more conducive to puns than face to face conversation
20:50:48 <Phantom_Hoover> So is this the true reason for your status as the Punmaster?
20:52:12 <oerjan> maybe. i'm a bit of a joker face to face as well.
20:52:13 -!- Timwi has joined.
20:53:11 <Timwi> Out of curiosity, what kinds of things do you discuss on this channel normally? :)
20:53:29 <oerjan> everything _except_ esolangs, generally
20:53:46 <Timwi> Oh, so Im in the wrong place :>
20:54:21 <Timwi> It would be futile asking something about the esolangs.org wiki then, would i?
20:54:28 <Vorpal> oerjan, hey I remember an esolang discussion just a few days ago
20:54:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Timwi, recent topics of discussion include Minecraft, Homestuck and puns.
20:54:41 <Timwi> Oh you guys have been punting? ;-)
20:54:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Despite us already having a separate channel for Minecraft discussion to start with.
20:55:15 <Vorpal> Timwi, we do discuss esolangs too however, it is just that it doesn't nearly fill up the time in here. Thus we get a lot of "off topic" discussion too
20:55:48 <Timwi> I wanted to ask what your opinions are on full descriptions on the wiki. I find it weird that some people seem to *remove* descriptions and leave only a short summary (by far not enough to get an idea of the language) and/or replace it with a link which of course goes dead quickly.
20:55:50 <Vorpal> besides, by coppro's conjecture, there is always an expert on anything you ask about in here, or someone in here knows an expert.
20:56:04 <elliott> Timwi: yeah i don't like that either
20:56:09 <oerjan> Timwi: um i've only noticed it happening once recently
20:56:16 <Vorpal> full description is better
20:56:23 <Timwi> Im tempted to revert the change [[Fish]] :-p
20:56:24 <elliott> I didn't revert it because there's no point having an unmaintained description but I did leave a message on their talk page
20:56:37 <elliott> they don't seem to have replied yet, but it's only been two days
20:56:52 <oerjan> Timwi: however one occasional problem is people copying stuff from elsewhere. our license is not very compatible with doing that.
20:56:53 <Vorpal> unless the language would be hugely complex. Like befunge98 or intercal
20:57:11 <elliott> oerjan: OTOH it was the language creator this time
20:57:17 <elliott> so they can pretty much do what they want
20:57:39 <oerjan> elliott: well i don't think they can just revoke the license, can they?
20:57:48 <Timwi> I dont see why complexity should be a stopper
20:57:50 <elliott> oerjan: no, exactly, posting it on the wiki counts as permission
20:58:34 <Timwi> I also dont happen to think that the articles should belong to the authors. Maybe the _language_ does, but unless they redefine their language I think the _description_ should be up to wiki philosophy
21:00:00 <Timwi> No disagreements? :)
21:00:31 <elliott> if it wasn't a wiki, most of the articles would be of terrible quality :)
21:01:01 <Timwi> Now Im not sure whether youre being ironic or whether you really think most articles are good quality
21:01:04 <oerjan> Timwi: we've done major rewritings of articles before. it's just we're usually too lazy to do so unless we consider the language particularly interesting _and_ have ideas for improvement
21:01:15 <elliott> Timwi: Well, define good quality :-P
21:01:21 <elliott> Like 90 percent of our articles are on tiny minor esolangs.
21:01:28 <elliott> So there's really not much to say on them.
21:01:38 <Timwi> Of course not, but that doesnt mean their descriptions cant be improved
21:01:49 <Timwi> Ive seen too many pages where the description is vague or ambiguous
21:01:57 <elliott> Sure; I think the average quality of articles is pretty good for all esolangs that more than one person cares about, though, on average
21:02:20 <oerjan> Timwi: well when the page is the _only_ description of the language it is hard for someone other than the author to disambiguate it
21:02:23 <elliott> Timwi: Well it's hard to clarify things when there's true ambiguity, because that ambiguity is in the spec itself.
21:02:46 <elliott> If we had a Funge-98 article, it would have to be extremely ambiguous by necessity (although Mycology acts as a sort of de facto disambiguator)
21:03:22 <Timwi> We should have some sort of incentive for authors to be precise and complete
21:03:26 <oerjan> although i recall i did some minor disambiguation to itflabtijtslwi when i implemented it
21:04:10 <elliott> Timwi: It's called having your language ignored otherwise.
21:04:13 <elliott> It's swift and merciless ;)
21:04:27 <Timwi> I think we can do better
21:04:51 <Timwi> For example, we could add banners (or other prominent boxes/markers) along the top of a page which clearly highlight all the ambiguities/open questions
21:05:00 <elliott> Isn't that what talk pages are for?
21:05:04 <Timwi> If we add these banners quickly enough when a language is posted, the author will notice it
21:05:10 <Timwi> Yes, but nobody notices them
21:05:15 <Timwi> Talk pages are completely useless.
21:05:26 <Timwi> Theyre not even suitable for discussions.
21:05:29 <elliott> I disagree, we've had very productive discussion and clarification on talk pages before
21:05:35 <elliott> hm did the wiki just go down for anyone else
21:05:42 <Timwi> My proposal is not to have a discussion about the language, but just to document the shortcomings of the article _in the article itself_.
21:06:25 <elliott> Timwi: well we could have some sort of infobox I suppose, but it seems like mentioning that there's a new discussion on the article's talk page on the language author's talk page might be the most productive option? I doubt most people check their languages' articles very often after all
21:06:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, is there an analogue of the internet archive that doesn't respect robots.txt?
21:06:58 <Timwi> What makes you think they check their user talk page any more often?
21:07:14 <elliott> Timwi: well you get an annoying bar on every page if you don't...
21:07:15 <Timwi> To get the notification they would have to at least view *something* on the wiki, and what would that be if not their own language article?
21:07:23 <elliott> other languages? recent changes?
21:07:26 <elliott> beyond that, there's the email this user link
21:07:33 <elliott> but if they have that disabled then they don't want to be bothered any more than that by choice
21:07:45 <Timwi> As a reader, I dont want to have to e-mail users, I want to just say this article has ambiguity XYZ and move on
21:08:00 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you mean after the fact? not respecting it while crawling might be likely to get you banned...
21:08:01 <Timwi> After all, the original language inventor may not be the only person capable of clarifying the ambiguity
21:08:05 <elliott> well, a note on the article talk page + a note on the user's talk page is quite easy to do
21:08:16 <elliott> Timwi: if there's a spec, then you could correct the error yourself :-)
21:08:19 <elliott> if not, then only the author can
21:08:32 <Timwi> I think youre not catching my drift here
21:08:46 <Timwi> At the moment, we have many articles with problems, but *nobody is documenting the problems*
21:09:21 <elliott> well the wiki is fairly low-traffic, and there's a huge long tail effect on the articles that are read
21:09:39 <Timwi> When I was new, I tried to make [[Talk:Funciton]] a bit like this i.e. have it be a documentation of current problems but when I removed a thread that was about a *resolved* problem, it was reverted and I was asked not to remove discussions. Thus, talk pages are completely useless for my purpose
21:10:17 <elliott> well archiving talk pages is OK but removing threads is generally not done
21:10:23 <oerjan> Timwi: um if someone logs in to the wiki at all, they will know if they have a message on their user talk page automatically, while they have to explicitly check all their language articles
21:10:27 <elliott> just because it makes them hard to access (you have to find a random revision in the history)
21:11:01 <Timwi> I still think an articles problems should be listed on the article itself though.
21:11:28 <Timwi> Incidentally, I also think that should be the case on Wikipedia as it would benefit readers a lot even if they cannot resolve the problem, at least they know it exists. But of course on Wikipedia I tend to talk against a wall there :)
21:11:31 <elliott> I'm fine with that, I just don't see how it will make problems get fixed any quicker.
21:12:18 <Timwi> Right. I cant prove to you that they will, but let me point out that most people thought wikis would never work (i.e. would only accumulate errors/problems that dont get fixed) until Wikipedia proved them wrong :)
21:13:06 <elliott> well sure, but people also said the same about perpetual motion machines :P
21:13:12 <elliott> I'm not opposed to the idea, I'm just not sure how people will notice
21:13:23 <oerjan> we _do_ have a stub template anyway
21:13:48 <Timwi> Oh dear, the stub template. I dont get why this is considered useful? It only states the obvious (this article is short). Its redundant.
21:14:12 <elliott> well some articles are short because there's not much to say
21:14:19 <elliott> others are short because we haven't figured out /what/ to say yet :)
21:14:41 <coppro> Timwi: so that people can easily go looking for stubs to expand on, in theory
21:15:47 <Timwi> I think a language article really *needs* only one thing: all the information necessary to implement the language or to program in it. But there are several would-be-nice-to-haves: the top #1 for me is example programs. Others include, for example, a simplified list of commands (a cheat sheet); another is a beginners introduction/tutorial...
21:16:05 <Timwi> coppro: Well you can still do that with [[Special:Shortpages]]
21:16:12 <elliott> IMO a tutorial would usually belong on another page, perhaps even a user page, since it's much less objective information than the rest
21:16:36 <Timwi> It can certainly go on a subpage, but why a user page?
21:16:48 <Timwi> Why is a tutorial not objective, and even if it isnt, why does all content need to be objective?
21:17:01 <elliott> because there are many ways to introduce someone to a language
21:17:06 <elliott> beyond what consensus can agree on
21:17:16 <elliott> that's just my opinion anyway
21:17:20 <Timwi> Well yeah, but surely its better to have /one/ such way than none
21:17:32 -!- Tritonio has joined.
21:18:04 -!- azaq23 has joined.
21:18:53 <Timwi> Do you think the introduction I wrote for Funciton is useless and/or too subjective?
21:19:12 <elliott> I don't really see that as a tutorial
21:19:24 <elliott> it's more a list of examples of certain features in increasing complexity rather than a guide on writing programs, IMO
21:19:38 <Timwi> It was intended as an _introduction_ rather than a tutorial
21:19:58 <Timwi> I wish more articles did that. Instead I tend to see descriptions that already assume knowledge about the execution environment / memory model / etc.
21:23:06 <oerjan> Timwi: btw your irc client is putting some strange characters in your messages
21:23:30 -!- ralc has joined.
21:23:38 <Timwi> Since when is UTF-8 strage?
21:24:07 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:24:20 <oerjan> they show up as inverted double S or T
21:24:36 <oerjan> and i'm otherwise approximately utf8 clean
21:24:47 <Timwi> Well, I'm assuming that it's UTF-8 -- how do I check? :-p
21:25:04 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:25:14 <Timwi> In fact I'm not running the newest version of mIRC. Maybe I should upgrade
21:25:20 <elliott> oerjan has rather bad luck with unicode
21:25:45 <oerjan> i've noticed elliott occasionally pastes characters like that, but he doesn't write them afair
21:25:48 <Timwi> Is anyone seeing my characters properly? quotes single quotes em dash etc.?
21:26:08 <elliott> I am, but oerjan and maybe others tend to have problems with Unicode characters in here anyway
21:26:10 <oerjan> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/11.05.22 at the end
21:26:19 <oerjan> shows up as blank squares to me
21:26:23 <elliott> and it's possible my client is just doing encoding detection
21:26:26 <Timwi> Why do so many people use ancient 1980s technology? :(
21:27:03 <Timwi> That chat log appears to be encoded as Windows-1252
21:27:13 <oerjan> i don't think this is utf8, since they don't show up as such in the logs
21:27:19 <elliott> oerjan: you might try the codu logs
21:27:32 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:27:34 <elliott> indeed it shows wrongly there too
21:27:37 <elliott> as wrong single characters
21:27:45 <elliott> so Timwi is the one using eighties technology -- a non-unicode character set :)
21:27:56 <oerjan> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2011-05-22.txt
21:28:16 <Timwi> Are you sure that the log shows exactly what my client sends?
21:28:30 <elliott> I've read the code to glogbot :P
21:28:34 <Timwi> OK then I need to find out how to enable UTF-8
21:28:46 <elliott> you could just use dumb quotes ;)
21:28:55 <elliott> indeed, shows right in the logs for me
21:29:04 <elliott> although with a diaeresis inexplicably??
21:29:37 <Timwi> A combining diaeresis no less
21:30:00 <elliott> oh, that's what i actually typed
21:30:03 <Timwi> Anyway. I'm happy to hear suggestions for a better IRC client
21:30:19 <elliott> I use xchat but I'm on linux
21:30:37 <elliott> although I gather that http://code.google.com/p/xchat-wdk/ is a decent xchat bild for windows...
21:30:49 <Timwi> BTW looks like mIRC can correctly _display_ your UTF-8-encoded text. I guess that's why I thought it also _sends_ UTF-8
21:31:37 <elliott> a lot of clients tend to do that, even xchat by default
21:31:49 <elliott> I had to change encoding from "IRC" which is some freakish latin-one/utf-eight hybrid to plain utf8
21:32:14 <Timwi> Why has nobody ever written a completely normal, un-messed-up IRC client?! :-)
21:33:08 <elliott> they have, hundreds of times in fact
21:33:15 <Timwi> Well I've never seen one
21:33:24 <Timwi> Yeah, I've never seen any of those either
21:33:26 <elliott> precisely, so you can be the next person in line to write one :)
21:33:39 <Timwi> Yeah, and no doubt 90% of all people will think mine is messed up too
21:33:41 <elliott> and then the first person to use yours will say "What kind of IDIOT wrote this? I'm going to write a /normal/ editorclient" :-P
21:34:34 -!- Timwi_ has joined.
21:34:53 <Timwi> Whoa, I didn't see the join message
21:35:00 <Deewiant> oerjan: /set recode_fallback CP1252
21:35:19 <elliott> Deewiant: that's loser talk
21:35:22 <Timwi> Argh! Ctrl+L clears the bugger, how do I undo that?
21:35:27 <Timwi> LOL s/bugger/buffer/
21:35:39 <Deewiant> oerjan: To make irssi try windows-1252 when it's not UTF-8
21:35:43 <elliott> I'm not sure why /clear even exists really
21:35:50 <Deewiant> oerjan: And to make Timwi's quotes etc work :-P
21:35:57 <Timwi> Right. So here we go, the first shortcut I press (accidentally) has a destructive data-loss characteristic with no undo. You don't think that's messed up? :-p
21:36:10 <elliott> Well if you turn logging on it's not destructive. :p
21:36:17 <Timwi> OK how do I do that? :)
21:36:20 <oerjan> Deewiant: i have it as iso-8859-1, i recall i had some trouble with using cp1252 after i changed the rest of my setup to be utf8 clean
21:36:30 <Deewiant> cp1252 is a ISO-8859-1 superset
21:36:34 <elliott> Timwi: Settings → Preferences → Logging
21:36:47 <oerjan> Deewiant: no, strangely enough _something_ broke iirc
21:36:54 <Timwi> I think I'll spend some time going through the Preferences dialog, thanks
21:37:07 <oerjan> i cannot quite recall what it was
21:37:10 <Deewiant> oerjan: It /is/ a superset :-P
21:38:08 <Timwi> Argh, the menu keyboard navigation is all messed up :(( Sorry I'm so picky :)
21:38:15 <oerjan> Deewiant: ah iirc iso1252 gave me trouble with characters 128 to 128+31
21:39:32 <Deewiant> Well, that's the only range where stuff is different
21:39:37 <oerjan> Deewiant: i vaguely recall characters showed up duplicated.
21:39:42 <Timwi> Meow Timwi test Meow
21:39:48 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:39:49 -!- Timwi has changed nick to Timwi__.
21:39:50 <Deewiant> In ISO-8859-1 they're control chars, in windows-1252 they're not
21:39:51 -!- Timwi_ has changed nick to Timwi.
21:40:03 <elliott> xchat, the best irc client for felines
21:41:05 <elliott> fizzie: we demand fungottery
21:41:13 <oerjan> Deewiant: oh hm wait i am seeing double chars _now_
21:41:59 -!- Timwi__ has quit.
21:42:04 <Timwi> OK now lets see how it goes
21:42:09 <Timwi> I couldnt find any UTF-8-related options though
21:42:17 <Timwi> Are the quotes showing up properly now?
21:42:33 <elliott> looks the same as before (i.e. fine) to me
21:42:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:42:38 <elliott> Timwi: the encoding is in the network list thing
21:42:48 <elliott> edit the server → Character set
21:43:33 <oerjan> Deewiant: ah yes. when i do cp1252 all the chars after that become messed up
21:43:39 <Timwi> This is totally messed up. I cant type normally into this text box...
21:44:03 <Timwi> I should make a list of all the issues I have with all the crap software I encounter :)
21:44:24 <elliott> what's not normal about the text box :)
21:44:31 <elliott> it's a standard gtk text box here
21:44:34 <elliott> but then my whole environment is gtk
21:45:13 <Timwi> It doesnt accept keypresses that come from a WinAPI SendInput() call.
21:45:35 <Timwi> Uhm, more precisely, it accepts keypresses such as backspace, but not Unicode characters :)
21:46:05 <Timwi> This is not the first time Im having huge issues with GTK and Unicode. For a GUI toolkit I think it is exceptionally broken
21:46:10 <elliott> try the input methods menu in the right-click?
21:46:21 <elliott> well you're on Windows, it's hardly GTK's native platform :)
21:46:34 <elliott> in X11 it supports unicode input perfectly for me
21:46:50 <Timwi> What does that Input Methods menu do that isnt already covered by normal native OS-level functionality?
21:46:50 <elliott> (diff) (hist) . . Fish; 19:11 . . (+8,797) . . Harpyon (Talk | contribs) (Added/rewrote documentation.)
21:47:00 <Timwi> Yeah, I noticed that :)
21:47:11 <elliott> Timwi: well on Unix/X11 which is GTK's native platform there is /no/ OS-level functionality for that, it's in the toolkit i.e. GTK :)
21:47:28 <Timwi> Right, so every program needs to implement it separately
21:47:46 <Timwi> So every program will implement it _differently_, so the amount of learning (and frustration) increases with the number of programs you use
21:47:54 <elliott> no, not every program implements it separately
21:48:02 <elliott> because there's more than one program that uses gtk
21:48:17 <elliott> actually it seems to have been unified into this "ibus" thing lately, I bet that works with Qt too...
21:48:38 <Timwi> How does that help anyone using any other app?
21:48:48 <Timwi> Clearly OS-level functionality is the right way to do this
21:49:07 <elliott> you realise there are hundreds if not thousands of applications using GTK+, right?
21:49:13 <Timwi> You want character input to be consistent across *ALL APPS WITHOUT EXCEPTION*, not different from framework to framework
21:49:24 <elliott> among them the vast majority of popular graphical Unix programs
21:49:35 <elliott> e.g. every single Gnome program
21:49:51 <Timwi> Right, so GTK now has a user lock-in feature too if you try to use ANY non-GTK program AT ALL and expect to be able to enter text normally, youre screwed
21:49:57 <elliott> Timwi: well it's a flexibility tradeoff -- every program that runs on the "GTK+ graphical OS" supports it.
21:50:13 <elliott> if it was on the Xorg level, it would just mean that doing it differently would involve rewriting the entire graphical subsystem
21:50:32 <elliott> (and it's certainly feasible to not use a single non-GTK graphical program)
21:50:52 <Timwi> So uhm, any other suggestions for a better IRC client? :)
21:52:04 <Timwi> WTF, now mIRC stopped working, supposedly because the evaluation period expired. That seems a bit random now, Ive been using it for decades :)
21:52:14 <elliott> just give it a few seconds and the continue button enables :P
21:52:47 <elliott> Timwi: btw i do generally agree wrt things being at the OS layer rather than lower down -- e.g. I'm a fan of OS-level object model/garbage collection -- but I'm not sure it's always clear-cut
21:53:15 <Timwi> Yeah, I dont claim that its easy :)
21:53:49 <Timwi> I was just very surprised to see this kind of text-input functionality in applications like Skype, Pidgin and now XChat, which duplicate functionality that should be OS-global and not app-specific...
21:54:07 <elliott> Skype is Qt I think, not sure; Pidgin and XChat are both GTK+.
21:54:38 <elliott> It's not really app-specific so much as layering some "graphical-environment functionality" on top of another graphical-environment (Windows), whereas they usually run a layer lower (X Windows), IMO
21:55:21 <Timwi> Its app-specific in the sense that there is GUI for it (such as the Input Methods menu in XChat) that should be in the OS
21:56:56 <elliott> What would make you consider such an option "part of the OS"? It's so you can set a specific input method temporarily
21:57:02 <elliott> So it wouldn't work in any sort of system-wide settings
21:57:20 -!- Timwi__ has joined.
21:57:42 -!- Timwi has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:57:42 -!- Timwi__ has changed nick to Timwi.
21:58:21 <Timwi> I may have misunderstood what the feature does, but even switching between input methods (e.g. keyboard layouts) I would argue should be OS-level. I'm actually annoyed that Windows remembers the keyboard layout on a per-app basis and switches between them as you switch between apps :)
21:59:43 <Timwi> I was actually going to ask whether there is any demand for a primitive esoteric-language IDE with a step-through debugger :)
22:00:11 <Timwi> I wrote one for an esolang I haven't published yet, and I was wondering whether anyone would like to help me add other languages, esp. BF and Befunge and some of the most popular ones
22:00:19 <elliott> there's a bunch of them for brainfuck
22:00:40 <elliott> by Befunge I take it you mean Befunge-93
22:00:51 <Timwi> Yeah, but I'm thinking of a single, integrated program that supports as many languages as possible
22:01:07 <elliott> (Implementing Funge-98 is a major project in itself; doing it efficiently and with good fingerprint support takes many thousands of lines.)
22:01:28 <elliott> Timwi: what language? I haven't tried Funciton yet because it depends on a newer version of .NET than Mono supports
22:01:39 <elliott> I don't think there's many Windows users in here
22:02:55 <Timwi> Well, I wrote it in C# because I happen to know C# best. I don't think you have to use Windows; I'm pretty sure that it'll work in Mono.
22:03:05 <Timwi> I could even concoct my own implementation of BigInteger, then I don't need to require .NET 4.0.
22:03:20 <elliott> Last I checked Mono didn't have BigInteger, yeah.
22:04:17 <Timwi> Hm, there's a Mono.Math.BigInteger
22:04:48 <elliott> it seems to be unsigned only
22:06:05 <Timwi> Everyone except for us two has gone quiet...
22:06:28 <Timwi> I should have gone slower so I could tell whether it's because I mentioned C# or whether it was because we talked about GTK+ in Windows :)
22:06:48 <elliott> oerjan: Phantom_Hoover: hey, revive the channel :-)
22:09:33 -!- elliott_ has joined.
22:09:47 <Timwi> Hm, commands are encoded as dance patterns?
22:11:35 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:12:45 -!- elliott__ has joined.
22:12:51 <elliott__> The resident electronics seem to be rather unhappy
22:12:57 <elliott__> Computer crashed then my router cut out
22:13:15 <elliott__> Who pronounced "eso" with a long e.
22:13:49 <Timwi> I always thought it should be long e, too.
22:13:57 -!- elliott_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:14:04 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
22:14:07 <elliott__> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=esoteric&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=uorZTeOpCsHRhAe05bS2Bg&ved=0CCAQkQ4&biw=1440&bih=761
22:14:08 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Changing host).
22:14:08 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
22:14:14 <elliott__> Pronunciation icon -> "ehsoteric".
22:14:34 <Timwi> http://howjsay.com/index.php?word=esoteric&submit=Submit
22:14:40 <Timwi> Short e apparently...
22:14:46 <elliott__> Phantom_Hoover: It's super effective.
22:14:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I have literally never heard it said with a short 'e'.
22:14:58 <elliott__> When have you EVER heard "esoteric" said?
22:15:25 <oerjan> fun fact, no one has ever said "esoteric", anything else is just an illusion
22:15:38 <elliott__> oerjan: your facts are as amusing as they are factual
22:15:54 <Timwi> I've heard esophagus though, is that similar? :))
22:16:04 * Phantom_Hoover remembers that he has a computerised pronunciation guide on his hard drive.
22:16:09 <oerjan> elliott__: your praise is as welcome as it is sincere
22:16:18 <elliott__> oerjan: It was _perfectly_ sincere.
22:16:23 <elliott__> I never said the fact was factual ;-)
22:16:37 <elliott__> Phantom_Hoover: A text-to-speech program?
22:16:56 <oerjan> curses, foiled by logic again
22:17:02 <elliott__> Phantom_Hoover: So are you a bee hipster yet?
22:17:13 <elliott__> Metallurgy, things to make shirts out of... bees are merely the next logical step.
22:17:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Did you even express interest in what the shirt would be made of.
22:17:53 <elliott__> I am going to generalise it down to "silk" to irritate you.
22:18:07 <elliott__> I will then point out how impractical that is wrt the weather where you live.
22:18:53 <elliott__> Phantom_Hoover: I mean that it is cold in Scotland.
22:19:20 <elliott__> Phantom_Hoover: Thus making the shirt completely superfluous :P
22:20:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah no because the collar of the shirt would be visible and everyone would be like "oh, your shirt is weird" and I'd be like "yes, it's made of spider silk" and then I could hug arachnophobes.
22:22:27 <oerjan> elliott__: i think that was more of an oklopol comment, really
22:22:42 <elliott__> oerjan: it had too many words for that
22:27:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:29:51 <Timwi> Hm, what did you see in my previous message?
22:30:27 <Timwi> Interesting! It’s sending UTF-8 now!
22:32:35 <Timwi> elliott__, you still there?
22:32:54 <Timwi> I was actually going to ask why people seem to be intent on keeping deadlinks around on esolangs.org.
22:34:35 <elliott__> well I created {{deadlink}} so people would either update them or wayback them
22:34:54 <Timwi> That wasn’t obvious :)
22:35:25 <Timwi> Although I did do that once — I recovered the description of [[Emoticon]] from the wayback machine
22:35:31 <elliott__> maybe I should put a note on the template page...
22:35:36 <elliott__> and link the "dead link" text to it
22:35:50 <elliott__> Timwi: hm you didn't copy from it without checking with the author though right?
22:35:53 <Timwi> Great, oerjan removed it :)
22:36:28 <Timwi> I can’t deny that it’s technically a copyvio, but I really cannot imagine it ever being a problem :)
22:37:37 <elliott__> well we do enforce the policy quite strictly, but I don't see anything that could be a copyvio on [[Emoticon]]
22:38:06 <elliott__> ugh, the new wayback interstitial is annoying
22:38:33 <oerjan> elliott__: um, <Timwi> Great, oerjan removed it :)
22:39:11 <elliott__> hm i wonder what you're meant to do with copyvios on wikis since it stays in the history
22:39:17 <elliott__> I think Wikipedia does a delete/restore without those revisions thing
22:39:35 <elliott__> Timwi: was it actually a vio or did you write your own description using the page?
22:39:44 <Timwi> OK, sent him an e-mail
22:40:09 <oerjan> it was pretty directly copied as i recall
22:40:24 <Timwi> Yeah, I copied it and only fixed the formatting
22:40:28 <Timwi> Which actually took me quite a while :/
22:40:40 <Timwi> Would be annoying if I don’t hear from the guy and the work was for nothing
22:41:13 <Timwi> I thought in the US copyright law allows us to post it and wait until we get a takedown notice :)
22:41:33 <elliott__> That's the kind of thing that gets you prosecuted :-P
22:41:39 <coppro> if you get a takedown notice, you have to take it down
22:41:44 <coppro> but it doesn't make it legal in the first plcae
22:41:58 <elliott__> that would be Graue's decision in any case
22:42:12 <Timwi> Speaking of Graue, I haven’t received a reply from him about my e-mail... :(
22:42:23 <oerjan> Timwi: no. the law allows the _isp/host_ to wait until they get a takedown notice. the uploader can certainly be sued immediately.
22:42:57 <oerjan> (well ok i'm not entirely certain)
22:43:19 <elliott__> I find making things up to be an excellent substitute for knowing things; YMMV
22:43:29 <oerjan> but it's meant to protect isp/hosts from having to check everything
22:44:49 <oerjan> i _think_ graue paid attention to ais523's email during the recent spam flood. but i certainly didn't get a response to the last one i sent
22:45:23 <oerjan> mind you the problem was fixed though
22:45:26 <Timwi> If Graue is going to be prohibitively unresponsive, we could consider forking the content :-p
22:45:44 <elliott__> Graue is a good admin and the esolangs.org domain has lots of Googlejuice in it anyway
22:45:52 <elliott__> although is technically not owned by Graue IIRC
22:46:10 <Timwi> Yeah, of course it would be best if we could get hold of the domain too :)
22:46:35 <elliott__> well I don't see why, the wiki is running quite smoothly
22:46:36 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:46:36 <elliott__> "While parsing numbers is not very hard, it makes for slow and possibly glitchy programs." --[[Fish]]
22:46:49 <elliott__> possibly glitchy? can this guy not write a number parsing program or something :)
22:48:12 <Timwi> elliott__, I explained why — because I’m not getting a response regarding my suggestions for improvement. Is the wiki interested in improvements or not? If I can host it equally smoothly *and* be responsive *and* make it easier for users to format articles nicely, that’s clearly an improvement :)
22:48:15 <Timwi> Of course I’m not saying I can
22:48:33 <elliott__> well what suggestions did you make?
22:48:48 <Timwi> For example, I considered making a new MediaWiki skin that is unique to esolangs
22:49:10 <elliott__> did you see mine and ais' replies on the talk page? that would be best done locally at first, since it involves editing PHP
22:49:16 <Timwi> I also suggested the div/span template thingie, which was eventually added, but only because someone found a tricky workaround for the filter :-p
22:49:23 <elliott__> if you had a finished skin you might get a quicker response
22:49:53 <Timwi> But more than creating a whole skin, I’d really just like to improve the look of individual articles
22:49:59 <Timwi> For that I would like to be able to edit [[Common.css]]
22:50:07 <Timwi> Er, [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]
22:50:32 <elliott__> well again some concrete suggestions might help :)
22:54:28 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:54:46 <Timwi> Why shouldn’t I be able to make these suggestions in the same way that you make any other suggestions on a wiki — by editing it?
22:55:20 <elliott__> well with normal pages you can only mess up one page with an edit, and it's easily revertible; with the CSS anyone could make the site unusable with a single edit
22:55:52 <Timwi> Well I’m not suggesting to make it editable to everyone
22:55:56 <Timwi> At the moment it is very hard to make a table that doesn’t look completely rubbish. Even if I add the code to make it look okay, I still have to add that to every single table....
22:56:29 <elliott__> I agree that a nicer table style would be nicer; have you written any CSS to make them nicer? You can test modifications in [[User:Timwi/Monobook.css]] and then any sysop could easily copy it over if people like it.
22:56:42 <elliott__> That was what was going to happen with the wikitable class from Wikipedia, but unfortunately the license prohibits it.
22:56:49 <Timwi> Well, except that no-one can see it until it is copied over :-p
22:56:58 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
22:56:58 <Timwi> (unless you copy it to your own user page, etc.etc. — a lot of unnecessary work)
22:57:15 <Timwi> Oh, that reminds me, I actually had another idea which may be a lot more controversial than this :)
22:57:25 <elliott__> Timwi: Well, nobody can see it before it is added to the global style either
22:57:43 <Timwi> Yes, hence why I‘m asking to be able to do that
22:58:16 <elliott__> hm is that an opening single quote character there...
22:58:46 <Timwi> Basically I was thinking it might be nice to be able to vote on esolangs. One could give a rating as to how clear the article is, how complete the spec, etc.... Does this sound like total chaos? :)
22:59:02 <elliott__> heh, didn't wikipedia introduce something like that recently...
22:59:12 <Timwi> elliott__: Yes, I would have fixed it if IRC allowed me to edit messages, but since it’s such ancient 1980s technology, I can’t.
22:59:25 <elliott__> Timwi: that's what s/// is fro :-)
22:59:26 <Timwi> They did? I didn’t see anything like it
22:59:51 * elliott__ can only imagine the chaos if IRC messages were fully editable...
22:59:55 <elliott__> Timwi: at the bottom of articles occasionally there's a rating panel thing.
23:00:13 <elliott__> something like "rate the writing", "content", "sources" and then it asks you how much of an expert you think you are in that area, which is just asking for bias
23:00:21 <Timwi> Hm, can’t see it...
23:00:31 <elliott__> it seems to only pop up occasionally
23:00:32 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
23:00:59 <Timwi> Right. Well, anyway, I was wondering about esolangs.org, not Wikipedipa :)
23:01:17 <elliott__> a rating system might be interesting, but would be perfectly doable as a separate project
23:01:28 <elliott__> I think the long tail comes in again -- who has a real opinion on the hundreds of esolangs on the wiki?
23:01:31 <elliott__> I have an opinion on a few dozen at most
23:01:47 <elliott__> so I imagine past the top N, it'd be a bit of a mush
23:01:51 <elliott__> but I'd be interested in seeing it, anyway
23:02:05 <elliott__> (it might work better as a "which is better: esolang X or Y?" type thing...)
23:02:19 <Timwi> Well, the main reason I thought of it is because I think the Main Page really needs a “featured esolang”, and this would be a democratic way of selecting one.
23:03:20 <Timwi> I was going to make myself dinner two hours ago, now I’m really hungry, so I think I better do it now.
23:03:24 <elliott__> a featured esolang might be interesting
23:03:34 <elliott__> I don't think the wiki has nearly enough traffic to keep it turning over at a decent rate were it democratic, though
23:03:43 -!- Timwi has changed nick to Timwi-Cooking.
23:03:46 <elliott__> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Popularpages -- it's really quite low-traffic
23:04:16 <Timwi-Cooking> Argh, by linking me to that you’re making me click on some of them, making them even more popular :)
23:04:49 -!- Patashu has joined.
23:05:00 <elliott__> I'm not sure twenty thousand views can count as popular by any measure :)
23:05:07 <elliott__> haha, Deadfish is one of the most popular articles
23:05:09 <Timwi-Cooking> 785 views for Funciton?! That’s surprisingly many! Who are all these people looking at it and not commenting :))
23:07:38 -!- micahjohnston has changed nick to incomprehensibly.
23:08:57 -!- incomprehensibly has changed nick to micahjohnston.
23:09:42 <oerjan> elliott__: maybe it's because of the golf?
23:10:01 <elliott__> oerjan: anagolf isn't /that/ popular, is it?
23:10:12 <elliott__> we just made _that_ _many_ implementations
23:11:05 <elliott__> words of wisdom: <graue> infinite muffins is too expensive and nobody can afford it
23:11:17 <oerjan> i wonder if PopularPages registers if i only look at a diff (as often happens when browsing Recent Changes
23:13:35 <oerjan> i recall Chu-Carroll blogged about it, but maybe he didn't link to the wiki
23:13:50 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:15:11 <elliott__> is thutu on there? chu-carroll blogged about that too
23:15:33 <oerjan> well i'm speaking about the first page
23:16:19 <oerjan> heck even unlambda isn't (it's #1 on the next page)
23:17:00 <elliott__> so oerjan how are you going to minimise Underload next? Is it TC without )? ;D
23:18:20 <zzo38> ) is a delimiter that matches ( so you now need to change other things too
23:19:26 <oerjan> it was moribund from the start
23:21:29 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:26:01 <zzo38> The article about Rapture seems like a list like the list in the article about Silly Emplosions except entirely different
23:30:36 <elliott__> google have apparently started to try and capitalise domain names
23:30:43 <elliott__> TvTropes now shows as "tvTropes.org"
23:32:31 <zzo38> elliott__: Are they based on META headings or anything like that?
23:33:01 <zzo38> I really think Google is messing up a lot of things over time it becomes even more mixed up from before
23:33:12 <elliott__> yeah yeah i can predict your opinions on google
23:33:19 <elliott__> except it doesn't just always camelcase the domain it seems...
23:33:33 <elliott__> seems to capitalise the u in "UrbanDictionary"
23:42:21 <Patashu> I think it's showing off how fancily it can detect words now
23:42:26 <Patashu> by detecting words in urls and capitalizing the starts of them
23:42:46 <elliott__> ok testing things with weird pronunciation it gets "deviantART" right, maybe it /is/ based on meta tags in part
23:43:01 -!- Timwi-Cooking has changed nick to Timwi.
23:44:46 <zzo38> Or maybe TITLE or something even if not META, is also possible.
23:45:18 <elliott__> ah yes, google sometimes constructs its own titles after all nowadays
23:46:10 -!- Timwi has quit.
23:52:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).