00:00:12 erm 00:00:13 with /// 00:00:14 :) 00:00:58 i am not sure you could do it shorter than just writing them all out :P 00:01:39 http://forum.world.st/cull-protocol-td1560122.html 00:02:03 Is this sort of sentiment, that prettyness is better than actually working for more uses, a common one in the Smalltalk community? 00:02:06 oerjan: no but it's the principle of the thing 00:02:21 (The AXAnnouncement code breaks for more than a certain number of arguments) 00:02:51 oerjan: I'm pretty sure that languages without some kind of self-modifying/macro facility produce inherently longer programs than ones without 00:03:05 which I like to think is quite a deep revelation 00:03:18 for a certain minimal length... 00:03:55 although by kolmogorov complexity there's only an additive constant difference... 00:10:10 oerjan: hmm is that necessarily so? 00:10:26 oerjan: consider a language where every constant literal is unary 00:10:31 integer that is 00:10:33 it occured to me it could be linear 00:10:33 but there's strings 00:10:40 but you somehow can't parse strings into integers 00:10:41 but 00:10:48 you can take strings as arguments to macros 00:10:54 and they can be turned into code somehow 00:11:03 but i guess that's specific to that language... 00:11:05 hmm 00:12:04 oerjan: anyway you should concentrate on figuring out an elegant structure that's basically a list and a pointer within that list >:D 00:12:16 (if the advance-the-pointer operation is automatically cyclic too that's even better I suppose...) 00:14:04 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined. 00:15:38 this is essentially a queue afaict. i thought we'd already discussed on a previous occasion using a zipper for that 00:15:54 erm 00:15:58 queues don't have a pointer to the first element do they 00:17:10 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:17:18 oh hm i misread the trace 00:17:28 (or rather didn't read much at all) 00:18:44 elliott: Consider a space/surface (the plane, the outline of a circle, the torus, klien bottle..) and pick two points on and think of every possible path between the two points. 00:18:56 thats a lot of paths 00:19:37 elliott: two paths are /homotopy equivalent/ if you can continuously deform one into the other. So if you pick the same point twice on a torus, the path that goes through the hole once is not homotopy equivalent to the path that goes all the way around it. 00:20:45 Homotopy type theory seems to be about interpreting dependent types stuff as topological spaces and functions as continuous maps between spaces 00:21:25 elliott: i don't know about elegant but you could split the list into a few segments... one from L a bit rightward, one reversed from there until the pointer, one from the pointer a bit on, and one reversed at the end 00:21:36 oerjan: ew 00:21:47 hmm maybe if you had 00:22:03 before pointer (in original order), pointer onwards cyclically (in original order) 00:22:04 and uh 00:22:06 that's it 00:22:07 but that's ugly 00:22:10 because removing elements 00:22:11 is just 00:22:11 bleh 00:22:19 elliott: !!!! 00:22:24 what 00:22:33 homotopy 00:22:41 sorry i'm topyphobic 00:22:43 toffeephobic 00:22:52 doesn't it make sense? :/ 00:22:58 elliott: um the whole point of my suggestion is that it's a couple of zippers that allows you to advance efficiently except when you hit the end 00:23:05 (when you have to rewind) 00:23:10 crystal-cola: it makes as much sense as anything makes when i'm also listening to oerjan :D 00:23:17 oerjan: well hitting the end is sort of a big thing in BCT... 00:23:31 ;_______________________________________; 00:23:33 elliott: the end here means end of segment duh 00:23:37 hmm 00:23:41 * Sgeo oohs at Teachables 00:25:31 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:25:42 because what you _really_ want is a cyclic list with two zipper cursors. 00:25:54 oerjan: do i really want two cursors? 00:25:58 hmm, I guess I do 00:26:02 one where i am currently 00:26:05 one to delete bits and cycle back 00:26:14 -!- sebbu has joined. 00:26:15 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 00:26:15 -!- sebbu has joined. 00:26:16 oerjan: is that what your couple of zippers provide? 00:26:23 it just seems like it should be more elegant :P 00:26:48 well i'm not enough of an expert on zippers to know how to do more than one cursor elegantly 00:27:22 maybe i'll just write it in C ;D 00:27:26 alternatively, you could use two Seq queues 00:27:44 one for L -> current, one for current -> R 00:28:05 what is it with you and Seq 00:28:26 ...it's the only way i know of to do queues elegantly in haskell? 00:28:40 two paths are homotopy equivalent if ___________? 00:29:03 in fact what i said above is just two queues emulated with two list zippers 00:29:08 oerjan: it was a joke 00:29:19 hmm, wow, I think this is actually more elegant in C 00:29:21 as disturbing as that is 00:29:25 well 00:29:25 *deques 00:29:30 easier to do fairly elegantly 00:29:57 elliott: " The mistake is to start thinking of identity types as representing paths, but to keep trying to interpret Σ and Π as logical quantifiers" 00:32:14 08:31:51 also I don't have a phone on me right now 00:32:14 08:31:54 and also I don't own a phone 00:32:22 i think i see your problem 00:36:41 http://www.kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre2/54708-2.png senses Gregor lacks: smell, sight 00:36:48 instead he has fnarf and... turgr 00:36:54 and also I'm mute 00:37:11 and homeless 00:37:14 and an orphan 00:37:16 and dead 00:37:21 elliott: The loss of support for KDE-LCARS is part of why KDE4 sucks so horribly :P 00:37:27 ais523 was dead the whole time 00:37:50 Gregor: i never realised people could actually be born without any kind of taste before now ;D 00:38:10 LCARS is about efficiency! 00:38:17 Gregor: omg I'm going to buy an iPad and make it look like that and go around horrifying Apple fans 00:38:24 Hey check out my totally tricked out iPad dude 00:38:26 It runs KDE 00:38:39 LCARSpad 00:38:44 If you gave iPad an LCARS display, some people would pay SERIOUS money for dat shizzle. 00:39:00 Gregor: Whereby some people is used to mean you. 00:39:04 [asterisk]"you". 00:39:12 More like "trekkies with more money than me" 00:39:27 Also, "trekkies who hate Apple less than me" 00:39:54 Honestly, the iPad is pretty damn close to LCARS :P 00:40:06 If it weren't for the typical Apple lockdown douchebaggery it'd be schweeet. 00:41:19 It'd work a bit better with actual tactile feedback. 00:41:42 10:04:13 --- join: oerjan (n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no) joined #esoteric 00:41:43 10:05:05 * oerjan declares the optbot topic idea to be a strike of genius 00:41:48 pikhq: did LCARS have that canonically? 00:41:52 elliott: Yes. 00:41:57 right 00:42:06 apart from typing, tactile feedback isn't that useful, though 00:42:16 your mouse doesn't really have it (it clicks, sure, but it clicks regardless of whether you actually did anything) 00:42:43 It does make repetitive, *automatic* use of an interface possible. 00:43:12 sure 00:43:15 Which it seems like you'd want for some of the tasks LCARS was depicted doing. 00:44:03 But for some other things, it's little more than a nicety. 00:45:06 All we need is a display that's touch sensitive, and can also adjust the height of individual pixels (or even just "cells") up or down a few millimeters. 00:45:07 The actual response could be produced entirely by software. This bit acts like a button because when you exert pressure on it, the software signals it to click. 00:46:49 Gregor: Honestly the problem is that that's not enough. 00:46:56 With keyboards, you can feel the keys _before_ you press them. 00:47:00 That's not really possible with that system. 00:47:10 elliott: Sure it is. 00:47:12 I don't generally mis-hit a key ever. 00:47:21 But my fingers sure do occasionally not get in the right place. 00:47:42 elliott: It would only have to have embossment between the "keys" to simulate everything necessary. 00:48:05 Hmm, you mean keeping them up permanently? 00:48:07 Yes, that would work. 00:48:19 LCARS was totally flat though because durp durp Science Trek durp 00:48:23 I mean they're up whenever you're not pressing on them. 00:48:28 Well yeah, I'm not talking about LCARS any more :P 00:48:36 That's tactile feedback by MAGIC> 00:48:39 s/>/./ 00:48:56 Gregor: You misspelled SCIENCE. 00:49:05 SCIMAGIC 00:49:14 MAGIENCE 00:49:22 SCMIENCE 00:49:54 Hmm 00:49:59 But more to the point, they're up whenever you're not pressing them, and it's in "keyboard mode" 00:50:04 oerjan: self-BCT visualisation might be a bit hard for rapidly growing patterns :P 00:50:13 Since the height is software-configured, it doesn't have to simulate a keyboard. 00:50:16 Gregor: Problem is, it'd have to be more than a few mm. 00:50:28 Gregor: Not even scissor-switches have /that/ little bumpiness. 00:50:31 It'd feel awful. 00:50:52 Gregor: ALSO, the software would need super good latency, because lord knows your fingers won't be kind to lag. 00:51:03 Oh yeah, it'd have to be CRAZYfast. 00:51:19 Yeah, and the mechanics would have to be practically instant :P 00:51:21 But that's not infeasible so long as it's done right (which it won't be because ... well, software) 00:51:22 elliott: Which is to say that it would need by done by intelligent people. 00:51:29 Otherwise there'd be no transition, it'd be "I'm touching this key" -> "Whoops there is now air below my finger" 00:51:35 I would think about 10mm total would be sufficient though ... 00:51:58 Gregor: I dunno about that... scissor switch keyboards are fine, but they get away with it by requiring tons of force to press. 00:52:00 Sub-20ms is entirely doable, and sufficiently low that humans can't freaking notice. 00:52:05 Which sort of "simulates" more tactile reaction than they have. 00:52:10 pikhq: Yeah, except that it has to be CONTINUOUS. 00:52:19 It has to move down by at LEAST one mm precision AS you press the key. 00:52:42 elliott: 20ms latency is perceived as "instant". 00:52:56 pikhq: By _brains_ 00:53:01 We're talking instinctual here. 00:53:19 brains... 00:53:19 I'm inclined to agree with elliott, but I still think it's entirely doable. 00:53:25 Oh, surely it is. 00:53:30 But don't expect to do it with Linux :P 00:53:30 Oh, right, may want to make that smaller still. What's the spinal cord-finger latency? 00:53:34 pikhq: 0 :P 00:53:43 It'd need some serious real-time operating system mojo. 00:53:50 And ridiculously optimised standard button components :P 00:53:59 THAT I disagree with. 00:54:01 In fact, some kind of hyper-parallel architecture might help, just dedicate one per button :P 00:54:08 elliott: It's definitely not non-zero. 00:54:12 pikhq: Indeed, it's zero 00:54:17 :D 00:54:20 Erm, definitely non-zero. 00:54:38 I was kidding. 00:54:41 Gregor: OK, let me clarify. 00:55:03 Gregor: You can't do it with a stock Ubuntu configuration running on regular PC hardware :P 00:55:09 The display itself would probably need to be controlled by a dedicated microcontroller. 00:55:19 (Linux by default is ridiculously configured anyway as far as desktops are concerned.) 00:55:31 pikhq: Yep, but Gregor wants software-controlled buttons... 00:56:11 I want the location, size and function of buttons to be software-controlled. 00:56:11 elliott: Well, you could send configuration of that from the main system to the display over the connecting bus. 00:56:29 I see no reason why the actual response has to be controlled by the main CPU, though I also see no reason why it has to be hardware. 00:56:31 Gregor: Oh, so it's OK for the actual depressing to be uncontrollable? 00:56:38 Perhaps. 00:56:40 Gregor: What if you just want a permanent emboss effect ;D 00:56:49 Yessss 00:56:57 Oh my god imagine CSS five with font-style: emboss. 00:57:05 Then pages with white on white text, just it's embossed. 00:57:19 SO HIP 00:57:48 I wish they would make the web simpler instead of more complicated ;/ 00:58:16 COMPLICATION IS ALWAYS THE SOLUTION 00:58:38 they probably play that on a loop to all the w3c folks 00:58:50 crystal-cola: Define simpler :P 00:59:37 oerjan: Hmm, maybe the self-BCT thing should just scale down lines if they get too long... that's ugly though. 01:00:23 crystal-cola: Step one to make the web simpler: start with Gopher. 01:00:23 :P 01:00:54 you know, I don't know anything about gopher 01:00:58 NO 01:01:00 XANADU 01:01:08 ENFILAAAAAAAADEEEEEEEEEEEEES 01:05:43 oerjan: ouch, i just thought about a /// self-interp 01:05:44 my mind hurts 01:08:22 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.). 01:08:50 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 01:09:24 Oh my god imagine CSS five with font-style: emboss. <-- no, font-style: crochet 01:09:37 wat 01:10:50 /// self-interp: 01:13:41 I nede to go to bed 01:13:46 right now 01:13:52 instead of reading 01:14:25 crystal-cola: bed? 01:14:27 THIS early? 01:14:31 yesrs 01:14:32 weirdo 01:14:33 ugdhhh 01:14:58 I think this channel makes me stay up late 01:15:53 IT IS POSSIBLE 01:15:59 http://giftrash.com/post/5008479548 01:16:11 (don't watch on a bad stomach) 01:16:57 seen :P 01:17:16 It occurs to me that an aquaduct system would be a pretty awesome means of transport in Minecraft. 01:17:32 pikhq: you mean just travelling along a stream? 01:17:33 that's been done 01:17:38 it's pretty sloe though 01:17:38 Admittedly, not as fast/convenient as minecarts, but hey. 01:18:18 More resource-efficient. 01:18:45 Could, in fact, be done entirely with renewable resources. 01:19:22 how hard is it to make a game like minecraft? 01:19:28 well that's a bad question 01:19:43 I just mean setting up a 3D grid of cubes which you can render at a decent speed 01:19:52 oerjan: argh bct also writes at the /end/ 01:19:58 you must have to do something clever to make it render fast enough 01:20:08 so you need the beginning, the end, and an advancing cyclic pointer within 01:20:18 crystal-cola: not really? it's just opengl 01:20:19 Well, that was an ugly hack 01:20:26 crystal-cola: hardware does it all for you 01:20:27 true ifTrue: [^true]. 01:20:27 crystal-cola: Requires more creativity than programming-chops, really. 01:20:36 elliott: the beginning + end is also an advancing cyclic pointer so to speak 01:20:41 oerjan: indeed 01:20:46 Presuming, of course, that you're not using an utterly sadistic language for the task. 01:20:50 Such as, say, C. 01:21:14 oerjan: if i didn't think it'd make such a pretty visualisation i'd stop coding right now ;D 01:21:39 -!- crystal-cola has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:21:54 crystal-cola wimped out 01:22:07 If you're using C, then you need to actually have notable programming skill for a Minecraft-alike. 01:22:21 Just like for everything non-trivial. 01:25:20 The biospheres mod is approximately "awesome". 01:25:57 get in -minecraft, you 01:28:03 C: Best language for all tasks. 01:28:12 Gregor: Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahno 01:29:27 ALL 01:29:29 TASKS 01:30:32 wow ok i hate c strinf handling so bad 01:31:09 Yeah, the API makes it damned difficult to just do *safely*. 01:31:31 can i have the first toaster 01:32:43 i know what i'll write it in PYTHON 01:32:47 the best language for shitting yourself with 01:34:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:39:32 excreme programming 01:40:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:40:49 hmm, my self-bct interp is broken... 01:50:21 oerjan: wow gleh 01:50:25 this program isn't supposed to stop running 01:50:29 what 01:50:30 why did i ping oerjan 01:50:53 must be your evil streak 01:53:23 self.pos = (self.pos + 1) % len(self.state) 01:53:23 ZeroDivisionError: integer division or modulo by zero 01:53:26 THIS PROGRAM IS NOT MEANT TO END DAMMIT 01:54:19 well it is 01:54:21 but it's meant to take a long time 01:56:27 -!- augur has joined. 02:03:00 oerjan: hm concatenating a BCT program with itself has no observable effects as far as execution goes, right? 02:04:59 an ordinary BCT program? no. 02:05:09 oerjan: well i mean self-bct 02:05:10 so i guess yes 02:05:13 because the end matter 02:05:13 sa 02:05:14 s 02:05:14 argh 02:05:39 well then it definitely matters yeah 02:05:46 where is my buggg :| 02:06:04 -> 02:06:09 oh there it is 02:17:56 -!- lament has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 02:43:15 Hrm. 02:43:27 Seems that tar on this system does not interact nicely with LD_PRELOAD. 02:44:12 I get the feeling GNU tar is too clever for its own good. 02:47:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:48:01 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:11:35 pikhq: Explain? 03:15:04 explicitly explain exploding explorers 03:16:08 without expletives 03:16:17 excluding expletives? 03:16:22 excrement 03:16:26 kind of breaks the exp though 03:16:27 excellent! 03:16:37 exciting 03:17:04 explicitly explain exciting exploding excrement explorers excluding excellent expletives 03:17:20 please 03:21:59 exactly 03:24:21 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:24:53 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined. 03:25:38 dear birds outside 03:25:40 shut up 03:25:41 love elliott 03:41:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:44:54 elliott: Tar not interacting with LD_PRELOAD. 03:45:05 elliott: But it's dynamically linked. 03:45:07 weird 03:45:11 how is it not reacting? 03:45:42 I tried making a tup rule using it. It got absolutely no information from the process. 03:47:46 Even if it *is* actually having the LD_PRELOAD'ed library work, it is still *definitely* being too clever for its own good. 03:48:51 pikhq: it might use mmap 03:51:15 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 03:53:54 elliott: And I suppose tup doesn't intercept mmap? 03:54:09 wait, mmap requires open() 03:54:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:54:19 Oh, right, so it does. 03:54:21 Making that moot. 04:01:30 well it could use syscalls directly instead of going through libc :P 04:06:02 -!- augur has joined. 04:07:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:07:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:11:15 I'm checking the source code, presently. 04:15:00 It definitely goes through libc's open. 04:15:44 In conclusion: wut? 04:26:28 Posted to list. 04:35:59 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 04:45:06 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:57:12 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 05:02:01 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:03:16 -!- quintopia has joined. 05:06:39 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 05:20:37 -!- aloril has joined. 05:27:19 !slashes asdf 05:27:22 asdf 05:27:39 !slashes @so 05:27:40 @so 05:27:40 not available 05:27:45 !slashes @so !slashes 05:27:46 @so !slashes 05:27:46 !slashes not available 05:27:47 not available 05:27:51 :D 05:29:10 !slashes @so !slashes /not available/!slashes @so !slashes \/not available\/\// 05:29:11 @so !slashes 05:29:11 !slashes not available 05:29:12 not available 05:31:24 !slashes /1/*0//*0/0**/1001 05:31:25 0000****************** 05:31:37 !slashes /1/*0//*0/**/1001 05:31:38 ****** 05:31:58 !slashes /1/*0//*0/0**//0//1001 05:31:59 ****************** 05:38:01 !slashes /1/0*//*0/0**/1001 05:38:02 0000********* 05:38:15 !slashes /1/0*//*0/0**//0//1001 05:38:16 ********* 05:38:22 ok, that's it, I think 05:38:27 !slashes /1/0*//*0/0**//0//1 05:38:28 * 05:38:30 !slashes /1/0*//*0/0**//0//10 05:38:31 ** 05:38:34 !slashes /1/0*//*0/0**//0//11 05:38:35 *** 05:38:38 :D 06:00:38 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:05:29 !slashes /\//\\\//\/\\\/\/\\\\\\\/\/ 06:07:04 -!- quintopia has joined. 06:17:25 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 06:18:44 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 06:42:25 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to danp_. 06:42:41 -!- danp_ has changed nick to bambam. 06:49:36 -!- bambam has changed nick to copumpkin. 07:07:34 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-AbPav5E5M&feature=youtu.be This boggles the mind. 07:21:47 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 07:57:59 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 07:58:03 Hello all. 08:00:32 How does !slashes work, what language is this? 08:13:05 -!- crystal-cola has joined. 08:16:46 -!- azaq23 has joined. 08:23:34 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 08:24:12 !slashes /1/0@so !slashes //0//111 08:24:13 @so !slashes @so !slashes @so !slashes 08:24:13 !slashes @so !slashes @so !slashes not available 08:24:14 @so !slashes @so !slashes not available 08:24:14 !slashes @so !slashes not available not available 08:24:15 @so !slashes not available not available 08:24:15 !slashes not available not available not available 08:24:16 not available not available not available 08:24:22 bot chaining! :-D 08:28:14 !slashes /1/0@so !slashes \/yes\/no\///0//1 08:28:16 @so !slashes 08:28:16 !slashes not available 08:28:16 not available 08:28:27 can you make it output more slashes? 08:28:46 !slashes /1/0@so !slashes //0//1\/yes\/no\/ 08:28:48 @so !slashes /yes/no/ 08:28:48 !slashes /yes/no/ not available 08:28:49 not available 08:29:09 !slashes /1/0@so !slashes //0//1\/not\/is\/ 08:29:10 @so !slashes /not/is/ 08:29:10 !slashes /not/is/ not available 08:29:11 is available 08:33:14 @so !slashes /not/1//available/1//1/@so !slashes/ 08:33:15 !slashes /not/1//available/1//1/@so !slashes/ not available 08:33:16 @so !slashes @so !slashes 08:33:16 !slashes @so !slashes not available 08:33:17 @so !slashes not available 08:33:17 !slashes not available not available 08:33:18 not available not available 08:34:07 !slashes /code/\/x\/y/code 08:34:33 !slashes /foo/Hello, world!//bar/foo/bar 08:34:34 Hello, world! 08:34:37 Can you do loops with slahes? 08:34:46 *slashes 08:35:02 !slashes /code/code/code 08:35:12 !slashes /code/xy/code 08:35:13 xy 08:35:17 !slashes /code/\/x/code 08:35:22 !slashes /code/y\/x/code 08:35:24 y 08:35:41 how do I do a slash?? 08:36:43 !slashes \/ 08:36:44 / 08:36:52 !slashes /a/\//a 08:36:58 !slashes /a/\\\//a 08:37:00 / 08:37:21