←2011-04-17 2011-04-18 2011-04-19→ ↑2011 ↑all
00:00:35 <pikhq> Quite true.
00:00:54 <pikhq> Done autoconf practice is even worse.
00:01:02 <elliott> Does it do pkg-config by default or do you have to tell it to? :)
00:01:12 <pikhq> You have to tell it to.
00:01:28 <pikhq> But the alternative is actually manually writing a check for the library.
00:02:05 <elliott> AC_CHECK_LIB(gmp, __gmpz_mul_si, ,
00:02:05 <elliott> [AC_MSG_ERROR(
00:02:06 <elliott> [GNU MP not found, or not 3.1 or up, see http://gmplib.org/])])
00:02:12 <elliott> In Fythe's configure.ac, copied by me from gmp's manual.
00:02:17 <elliott> AC_CHECK_LIB([pcre], [pcre_compile], , [AC_MSG_ERROR([pcre is required])])
00:02:18 <elliott> AC_CHECK_LIB([m], [read]) # Can't use something better because it'll be a builtin in GCC
00:02:20 <elliott> Presumably written by Gregor.
00:02:50 <elliott> pikhq: Conclusion: Yeah, nobody uses the pkg-config stuff :P
00:03:54 <Yahweasel> elliott: GMP doesn't have a pkg-config entry. pcre does, I should probably be using it.
00:04:05 <pikhq> libm of course doesn't.
00:04:15 <elliott> Yahweasel: And GMP is a popular library, it _should_ have a pkg-config entry.
00:04:26 <Yahweasel> pkg-config --cflags m
00:04:26 <Yahweasel> :P
00:04:27 <elliott> mcmap used pkg-config for zlib, until it transpired that Ubuntu lacked such a file, while mine and fizzie's distros didn't.
00:04:30 <elliott> So we had to change to -lz.
00:04:40 <elliott> tl;dr pkg-config is a clusterfuck right now because several important libraries don't work.
00:04:58 <pikhq> elliott: I don't think GNU junk is on the bandwagon yet.
00:05:06 <pikhq> Outside of the GNOME stack.
00:05:16 <elliott> zlib is not gnu
00:05:24 <pikhq> Yeah, but GMP is.
00:05:25 <elliott> I presume the pkg-config files are just newer than Ubuntu's version.
00:05:31 <elliott> But still, pkg-config has been around for ages.
00:05:38 <elliott> That zlib isn't usable with it yet is... crazy.
00:05:58 <pikhq> 5 years since first release.
00:06:19 <elliott> This is computing. That's a decade.
00:06:22 <elliott> At least.
00:06:50 <elliott> Man. pkg-config only came out in two thousand and six?
00:06:52 <elliott> That's crazy.
00:07:23 <pikhq> zlib has had 2 releases since then.
00:07:30 <elliott> http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/openbsd/2005-11/1922.html
00:07:30 <elliott> http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2009-January/071851.html
00:07:35 <elliott> Apparently pkg-config is broken :P
00:08:59 <pikhq> elliott: "Someone was overzealous on the pkg-config file ITS BROKEN!"
00:09:09 <pikhq> Besides which, -Wl,--as-needed would catch that.
00:09:10 <elliott> Latter is from maintainer of Wine, though.
00:09:19 <elliott> Project leader.
00:09:27 <pikhq> (and that is increasingly the default on distros)
00:09:37 <elliott> Admittedly someone who has such in-depth knowledge of the Windows API is probably not entirely sane...
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00:14:44 <elliott> "There are hundreds of third parties in this country. But only one has ever helped elect George W. Bush."
00:14:46 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:14:47 <elliott> lol usa
00:15:23 <Sgeo_> My left ear is working again!
00:15:24 <elliott> "Fact is, the 2000 election results in florida is the undeniable trump card for why voting for a thirtd party in a close election is moronic."
00:15:31 <elliott> deargod
00:15:32 <elliott> you're all doomed
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00:20:02 <pikhq_> elliott: Funny, I could've *sworn* the 2000 election results in Florida just demonstrates that the Supreme Court has ceased to be a neutral institution, and instead votes for What The Party Wants.
00:20:26 <elliott> pikhq_: Also, y'know, your voting system is fucking retarded and inherently quickly collapses into a two-party shitfest.
00:20:39 <oerjan> <elliott> finally I know who to blame for making zippers get stuck so much
00:21:07 <oerjan> well my impression from the reddit discussion was that their monopoly is well-deserved
00:21:12 <pikhq_> Yup, our voting system seems almost *designed* for a two-party shitfest.
00:21:16 <elliott> THEY STILL GET STUCK ALL THE TIME OERJAN
00:21:55 <oerjan> yeah i have this jacket that i need to be very careful with lest the zipper divide
00:22:09 <oerjan> and it's a YKK
00:24:09 <oerjan> <elliott> i can do lambdabot
00:24:20 <olsner> zippers normally divide, that's what they're there for
00:24:26 <elliott> olsner: HYUK
00:24:31 <oerjan> olsner: i mean when i'm trying to join it
00:24:53 <elliott> oh i thought
00:24:55 <elliott> that was a joke on
00:24:59 <elliott> functional programming zippers...
00:25:10 <olsner> nope, just a normal one
00:25:51 <oerjan> elliott: i think > is easier. do you still have this problem?
00:26:00 <elliott> oerjan: yes. but actually ? is possible.
00:26:03 <elliott> so i can yeah
00:26:24 <oerjan> and > isn't?
00:26:45 <oerjan> ^nr
00:26:45 <fungot> `1234567890-=~!@#$%^&*()_+
00:26:46 <HackEgo> No output.
00:27:01 <oerjan> @let nr = "`1234567890-=~!@#$%^&*()_+"
00:27:03 <lambdabot> Defined.
00:27:06 <oerjan> > nr
00:27:08 <lambdabot> "`1234567890-=~!@#$%^&*()_+"
00:27:33 <elliott> oerjan: YAAAAAAAAAAAY
00:27:38 <elliott> use text
00:27:40 <elliott> not ""
00:27:49 <oerjan> text?
00:27:53 <elliott> @let nr = text "`1234567890-=\n~!@#$%^&*()_+"
00:27:53 <lambdabot> <local>:4:0:
00:27:53 <lambdabot> Multiple declarations of `L.nr'
00:27:53 <lambdabot> Declared at: <local>:...
00:28:01 <elliott> unlet nr plz
00:28:05 <elliott> @unlet nr
00:28:05 <lambdabot> TemplateHaskell is not enabled
00:28:05 <oerjan> anyone can wipe it out though
00:28:09 <elliott> gah
00:28:10 <oerjan> @unlet fnord
00:28:11 <lambdabot> TemplateHaskell is not enabled
00:28:12 <elliott> how do you redefine
00:28:21 <oerjan> @unlet
00:28:22 <lambdabot> Defined.
00:28:25 <elliott> @let nr = text "`1234567890-=\n~!@#$%^&*()_+"
00:28:26 <lambdabot> <local>:5:0:
00:28:26 <lambdabot> Multiple declarations of `L.nr'
00:28:26 <lambdabot> Declared at: <local>:...
00:28:32 <oerjan> oops
00:28:40 <oerjan> @list let
00:28:40 <lambdabot> eval provides: run let undefine
00:28:45 <oerjan> @undefine nr
00:28:54 <oerjan> > nr
00:28:55 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `nr'
00:28:59 <elliott> @let nr = text "`1234567890-=\n~!@#$%^&*()_+"
00:29:00 <lambdabot> Defined.
00:29:00 <elliott> > nr
00:29:02 <lambdabot> `1234567890-=
00:29:02 <lambdabot> ~!@#$%^&*()_+
00:29:06 <elliott> yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
00:29:14 <elliott> ^_^
00:29:24 <oerjan> why the \n?
00:29:41 <oerjan> @undefine fnord
00:29:46 <oerjan> > nr
00:29:47 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `nr'
00:29:51 <oerjan> @let nr = text "`1234567890-=\n~!@#$%^&*()_+"
00:29:53 <lambdabot> Defined.
00:30:07 <oerjan> sadly @undefined still works on an all-or-nothing basis, it seems
00:30:19 <oerjan> *@undefine
00:31:36 <oerjan> and that of course increases the risk that someone else wipes it out
00:32:34 <elliott> omg it's existential risk
00:34:04 <oerjan> hm glogbot doesn't show my previous quit message
00:35:29 <elliott> glogbot is bad at quit and nick
00:35:48 <oerjan> it _usually_ does, i mean this time
00:38:46 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
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00:50:26 <elliott> comex: do you have that Suber quote on nomic software having to keep up with the rules?
00:50:59 * oerjan recalls that was a problem with Nomic World
00:51:08 <elliott> oerjan: indeed. that may have even inspired the quote.
00:51:34 <elliott> oerjan: "The problem with email-oriented nomics is that someone needs to take
00:51:35 <elliott> the task of managing things manually... vote tallying, ruleset
00:51:35 <elliott> updating, etc. I'd be up for playing that way so long as someone else
00:51:35 <elliott> takes on the administrative tasks."
00:51:38 <elliott> basically I'm trying to respond to this
00:51:46 <elliott> the nomic in question is Nomicron, which does pretty much everything with a hard-coded site
00:51:55 <elliott> which is a strong disincentive for me to play it
00:52:44 <oerjan> i thought somehow this might be part of the inspiration for code nomics like schemenomic and perlnomic
00:53:11 <oerjan> then how to make the implementation becomes part of the game
00:53:26 <elliott> oerjan: I think it was.
00:53:45 <elliott> Heh, oerjan has a nomicwiki article.
00:53:50 <elliott> (Found when googling schemenomic.)
00:53:53 <elliott> Although NomicWiki is offline.
00:54:12 <elliott> And it's not cached anywhere, oh the humanityX
00:54:40 <elliott> oerjan: Could I coerce you into playing Normish Two? :)
00:54:47 <oerjan> nah.
00:54:59 <elliott> oerjan: Could I get you to play Normish Two if I threatened you with knives?
00:55:04 <oerjan> nah.
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00:55:20 <elliott> oerjan: What if I threatened you with immortality?X?X?X?XX
00:55:58 <oerjan> ...that would require me to believe you could pull off the threat
00:56:06 <zzo38> Does this good?? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/texify/texify.htm
00:56:27 <elliott> oerjan: I could commit to making a certain large donation to SIAI every regular interval...
00:56:36 <elliott> Unfortunately the post-Singularity immortality would be perfectly optional.
00:56:37 <elliott> Hmm.
00:56:41 <elliott> Tricky.
00:57:03 <elliott> oerjan: Can we just assume I'm smart enough to find a way to make tangible efforts to cause you to become unstoppably immortal, and go from there?
00:57:13 <oerjan> no.
00:57:29 <elliott> oerjan: I SENSE I AM PISSING YOU OFF
00:57:43 <zzo38> What is SIAI means?
00:57:45 <oerjan> it's an uncomfortable subject.
00:57:59 <elliott> zzo38: http://singinst.org/
00:58:04 <elliott> oerjan: What, playing Normish?
00:59:24 <elliott> OERJAN HAS NOW CEASED TO REPLY TO ME
00:59:32 <oerjan> immortality.
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01:00:07 <elliott> oerjan: YOU WERE USING CURT REPLIES RIGHT FROM THE FIRST MENTION OF NORMISH, YOU LIAR
01:00:13 <elliott> LIES AND DECEIT
01:00:24 <oerjan> ...that was not from being pissed off
01:00:59 <zzo38> Stop cheating please.
01:01:08 * oerjan needs an ice coffee
01:01:23 <elliott> oerjan: But with NORMISH, you could have THE LATEST VERSION OF GHC, on a LINUX hostXXX
01:01:36 <augur> coffee! \o/
01:01:36 <myndzi> |
01:01:36 <myndzi> /<
01:01:48 <oerjan> normish is a haskell nomic?
01:02:16 <oerjan> *shake* *shake*
01:02:28 <elliott> oerjan: it's a Unix nomic
01:02:30 <zzo38> myndzi: It is lined up this time. But I don't know if it is on everyone's computer, because there are many kind of formats used
01:02:45 <elliott> it basically has multiple personality disorder, on one hand it's a shell account provider ran semi-democratically via a nomic
01:02:52 <elliott> and on the other hand, it's a codenomic where the code is Unix
01:03:19 <elliott> Normish One petered off due to failing to have much interesting going on, but I've taken the initiative to try and revive it But Better.
01:03:21 <elliott> (it's tswett's)
01:03:31 <elliott> petered off. is that the right spelling?
01:03:49 * oerjan is reminded to download the latest haskell platform
01:03:58 <elliott> oerjan: oh, and Normish Two is also meant to act as a host for _other_ codenomics
01:04:08 <elliott> e.g. perlnomic, smallnomic
01:06:19 <elliott> oerjan: And, er, er, er, DID I MENTION LATEST GHC WITH USER-LOCAL CABAL INSTALL
01:09:28 <oerjan> the haskell platform installer has this weird ability _not_ to show up in the taskbar...
01:09:42 <elliott> oerjan: not a problem with NORMISHXXX
01:10:29 <oerjan> also, completely misinterpreting what motivates me _does_ piss me off. a bit.
01:10:56 <elliott> oerjan: I think you are failing to understand: a joke?
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01:11:12 <elliott> Unless you're saying that merely asking whether I could convince you to join Normish was a complete misinterpretation :P
01:11:30 <elliott> Or unless you just can somehow resist the promise of sweet, sweet GHC.
01:12:21 <oerjan> ...i'm a bit pissed off to start, actually. damn stiff neck.
01:12:26 <oerjan> *with
01:12:36 <elliott> LOGIC DEFEATS YET ANOTHER FOE
01:12:41 <elliott> BY DEFEATS I MEAN SHIFTS THE BLAME TO PHYSICAL MATTERS
01:13:03 <elliott> ...a Haskell nomic is temting me at this point
01:13:11 <oerjan> yes, i hate the physical universe. why do you ask?
01:13:26 <elliott> oerjan: well that's okay, because when all our minds are uploaded...
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01:13:37 * elliott observes as oerjan continually walks into trap
01:14:04 <oerjan> ...but i feel like i already fell into one
01:14:17 <elliott> you did. it's a fractal trap.
01:14:27 <elliott> it starts with immortality, then nests into mind uploading.
01:14:30 <elliott> who knows what is nextXXX
01:14:59 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Conversation is painful).
01:15:22 <zzo38> OUCH OUCHOUCH OUCHOUCHOUCH OUCHOUCHOUCHOUCH
01:15:36 <elliott> oerjan sure is pissier than usual lately
01:15:45 <elliott> or maybe i'm just more annoying :)
01:21:50 <zzo38> Maybe you need to fix your computer please.
01:22:02 <zzo38> If, you did not fix it yet.
01:22:02 <elliott> why are you so concerned whether i fix my computer or not
01:22:27 <zzo38> Because???
01:22:49 <elliott> Because why
01:23:08 <Sgeo_> "Installing Task-Manager you can read fast..."
01:23:19 <elliott> Sgeo_: already commented on BRO
01:25:35 <Sgeo_> elliott, I like blind LPs on YouTube. This is not blind
01:25:47 <elliott> Sgeo_: You don't know what it's going to be like.
01:26:03 <Sgeo_> Oh, hmm
01:26:16 <elliott> Have you read that Animal Crossing LP?
01:26:20 <Sgeo_> Agent Rankings isn't just the user's previous playthroughs?
01:26:22 <Sgeo_> elliott, no
01:26:27 <elliott> Never mind then.
01:28:16 <elliott> Sgeo_: (I was referring to The Terrible Secret of Animal Crossing.)
01:31:38 * Sgeo_ puts on the blue valley
01:31:47 <elliott> What?
01:32:03 <Sgeo_> The music
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01:37:48 <Sgeo_> I think I've read this before
01:37:51 <Sgeo_> This seems familiar
01:45:13 <elliott> tswett: ping
01:50:55 <tswett> Tentative pong.
01:54:07 <elliott> tswett: Do you have that Suber quote on software having to keep up with a nomic's ruleset?
01:54:19 <tswett> I don't think so.
01:54:25 <elliott> Ugh.
01:57:51 <tswett> Well, it is the time of sleep.
01:57:53 <tswett> Good night.
01:57:58 <elliott> Who needs that?
01:58:12 <tswett> All mammals.
01:58:21 <elliott> You lie.
01:58:37 <tswett> I never lie.
01:59:06 <elliott> tswett: You said you only respond "excellent".
01:59:12 <elliott> You are responding with non-excellent.
01:59:13 <elliott> That's a lie, brah.
01:59:56 * tswett nods.
01:59:58 <tswett> Well, it is the time of sleep.
02:00:00 <tswett> Good night.
02:00:04 <elliott> Brah.
02:19:11 <Sgeo_> Suddenly, I want to read the Uplink data files
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02:36:17 <oerjan> elliott: it looks like your <{{{1}}}> template idea doesn't work
02:36:25 <elliott> darn
02:37:15 <oerjan> ...i guess it couldn't, since it could be used to evade bans on tags for other purposes than anti-spam...
02:37:27 <oerjan> just come to think of it
02:38:39 <oerjan> i guess that depends on _where_ the ban is implemented, hm.
02:39:39 <oerjan> oh hm
02:43:04 <oerjan> {{subst:tag|div style="{{{1}}}"}}{{{2}}}{{subst:tag|/div}}
02:43:09 <oerjan> for some reason give
02:43:11 <oerjan> *s
02:43:17 <oerjan> <{{{1}}}>{{{2}}}</div>
02:43:21 <oerjan> on preview
02:44:07 <oerjan> and also as final page result
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02:50:08 <oerjan> elliott: oh it works without the style="{{{1}}}" part...
02:50:33 <elliott> awesome
02:50:48 <oerjan> so close :)
02:51:43 <elliott> oerjan: what if you just do
02:51:52 <elliott> {{tag|div style="color:red"}}test{{tag:/div}}
02:51:52 <oerjan> but of course i cannot edit the result to include the style part afterward :(
02:51:53 <elliott> don't use subst
02:51:55 <elliott> it'll stop editing
02:52:25 <oerjan> um i tried without subst first and i thought it didn't work. hm let's see.
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02:54:38 <zzo38> I did managed to find a way to enter a <DIV> tag into a page on the wiki.
02:55:04 <zzo38> But then it fails to save, you have to remove it before it will save a copy.
02:55:21 <zzo38> I used the raw signature feature.
02:55:37 <oerjan> zzo38: um that's obviously not what we try to do...
02:56:03 <oerjan> um or do you mean there is something _else_ that removes div's other than the failure to save...
02:57:06 <variable> my internet is horid :-\
02:57:34 <zzo38> No, it is based on what data the server receives from the client, only.
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02:58:06 <oerjan> well that still doesn't explain why i cannot get it to work with ... hm
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02:59:51 <oerjan> elliott: i got closer again, but without subst the <div> gets converted to text, again
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03:01:48 <oerjan> dammit {{subst:tag|div {{{1}}}}}{{{2}}}{{subst:tag|/div}}
03:02:16 <oerjan> somehow doesn't work when i actually _use_ it :(
03:02:18 <oerjan> hm...
03:04:30 <oerjan> elliott: Template:div now contains <div {{{1}}}>{{{2}}}</div>
03:04:48 <oerjan> but that somehow doesn't get properly transcluded
03:06:02 <oerjan> oh!
03:07:25 <oerjan> elliott: i think my problem might be that wp template syntax uses attrib=value for its own purposes
03:08:46 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of chess game? http://play.chessvariants.org/pbm/play.php?game=123456+Chess&log=nwolff-cvgameroom-2011-95-172&submit=Print
03:09:17 <Sgeo_> elliott, why was I under the impression that the bonus CD had Uplink's source coe?
03:09:30 * Sgeo_ legally obtains the CD
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03:11:55 <oerjan> success!
03:12:05 <oerjan> {{div|1=style="color:red"|2=test}}
03:12:08 <oerjan> works!
03:12:20 * Sgeo_ <layer>'s oerjan
03:12:34 <zzo38> OK, now it is good.
03:12:50 <zzo38> (Still, I think <DIV> is not needed much, but at least now you figured it out, in case you do need it.)
03:13:40 <zzo38> You can use style= with other HTML tags, too (see the DottyWeb templates).
03:17:41 <zzo38> Black player has already lost the king's bishop's pawn
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03:21:18 <zzo38> Here is such a completed game, using the same rules: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/chesslog/1.htm
03:23:36 <zzo38> I can see five ways in which the black player can get out of check, in the final position, but none of them seem to work (which probably is why they resigned).
03:28:22 <zzo38> Do you know this game?
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03:31:16 <Sgeo_> zzo38, what do you think about combos that can give infinite mana, or infinite other resources?
03:33:02 <zzo38> Sgeo_: I prefer Limited rather than Constructed. It might still be possible, but now you have to both draft, and build a deck, and then play, too. As long as you do not too much of such cards that makes it easy in the set, it should not be much of the problem. However, this would work better if mana burn is still used.
03:34:38 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Did you understand what I write? Or, did I do it wrong?
03:35:39 <Sgeo_> I don't understand how mana burn avoids the possibility of infinite mana. My understanding is that you can make only as much as you need for whatever you want anyway
03:35:52 <Sgeo_> But yeah, if you prefer non-Constructed, that could get in the way
03:37:24 <zzo38> It does not avoid the possibility, but in some cases mana burn will make it more difficult, depending on what kind of combos, and stuff like that. Once, I was watching a game, someone had a card they played a land already, got sixteen mana (from one land), played a card, the next card in their library was Island (they have the one making you reveal it all the time), so they lost due to mana burn.
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03:40:18 <zzo38> In some combos, it is true you only have the amount you need. But some such combos might not work that way. Especially if opponent has a enchantment that makes cards produce more mana than it is, they can play it on your cards, or global to affect both player's cards, then you might become mana burned.
03:42:51 <zzo38> This is what I mean.
03:50:29 <pikhq> SCREW YOU PROCRASTINATION
03:50:30 <pikhq> SO MUCH
03:51:34 <Sgeo_> pikhq, oh?
03:54:58 <elliott> hi
03:55:09 <elliott> <oerjan> success!
03:55:09 <elliott> <oerjan> {{div|1=style="color:red"|2=test}}
03:55:09 <elliott> <oerjan> works!
03:55:10 <elliott> ah yes
03:55:17 <pikhq> Ohai. I am busy not working on something I should be.
03:55:29 <elliott> pikhq: Tupising something? :P
03:55:49 <elliott> oerjan: is there no way to generalise div to arbitrary tags?
03:56:05 <elliott> I would prefer {{tag|div|one=...|...}}
03:56:52 <pikhq> elliott: Nope, just redditing.
03:58:54 <elliott> oerjan: Also, do you mind if I make it {{span|attrs=...|text=...}}?
03:59:04 <elliott> In fact... you don't need the one=.
03:59:09 <elliott> {{span|=attrib="value"|foo}} should work.
03:59:58 <pikhq> So, is oerjan working on a replacement for our "favorite" markup language or something?
04:00:08 <elliott> oerjan working on something practical?
04:00:11 <elliott> hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
04:00:18 <elliott> no, we're just circumventing the wiki's spam protection
04:00:34 <pikhq> Hey, he worked on... That thing. With the thing.
04:09:25 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, AFAICT autoconf is essentially a really ugly expert system.
04:09:33 <elliott> (OK, so just about EVERYTHING is an expert system, but still.)
04:10:32 <elliott> pikhq: You want: "A C99 compiler, and the libraries zlib and libpng", and you would prefer "Medium optimisation and debugging info"; and the software knows how to try and find a piece of software on a wide variety of system configurations.
04:10:40 <elliott> (i.e. human knowledge)
04:10:59 <elliott> From this, it figures out how to compile your program as close to the way you and the user (CC variable etc.) want it as possible.
04:19:58 <elliott> pikhq: HI
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04:21:46 <Sgeo_> elliott, Uplink conduct: Never use InterNIC
04:21:51 <elliott> lol
04:21:57 <elliott> Uplink conduct: Never use proxies. Ever.
04:22:17 <elliott> Uplink conduct: Don't erase your tracks, just complete the game before anyone traces you.
04:23:01 * Sgeo_ is seriously wondering if it's possible to play without InterNIC
04:23:18 <Sgeo_> Would some organization necessarily know that its logs were hacked into?
04:23:18 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, that sounds like what autoconf is trying to do.
04:23:46 <elliott> pikhq: So it just has to be made MOAR GENERIC
04:24:04 <pikhq> elliott: Oh dear God no, it is far too generic.
04:24:12 <pikhq> elliott: It's a fucking shell script generator.
04:24:15 <zzo38> I used LodePNG in my own program due to simplicity, instead of libpng. LodePNG is a single file, if compiled by a C compiler it will use C mode fine, but it can also be compiled with a C++ compiler to use the object-oriented features of C++ (but I just use the C mode).
04:24:15 <elliott> pikhq: No, I mean in a way that actually _reduces_ the complexity.
04:24:19 <elliott> pikhq: "(goal, knowledge) -> solution" is pretty much the definition of an expert system, so...
04:24:36 <elliott> pikhq: You can easily factor out the "knowledge" into a bunch of system-specific files.
04:24:38 <pikhq> zzo38: libpng in and of itself isn't very complex.
04:24:56 <elliott> So the "generic Unix" module would try "cc", "gcc", etc. in turn to find a C99 compiler.
04:25:14 <elliott> And try pkg-config if it's there, or look in /lib, /usr/lib, ... to find a library, or just use the C compiler's -l.
04:25:33 <pikhq> elliott: Interesting idea.
04:25:40 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
04:25:46 <pikhq> elliott: Though that is actually a bit more specific than autoconf.
04:25:52 <elliott> pikhq: It's pretty much autoconf if it didn't HARDCODE EVERY DAMN STEP :P
04:26:03 <elliott> And howso? What the actual things to find are, are just abstract symbols.
04:26:07 <pikhq> elliott: Autoconf is literally a set of autoconf macros.
04:26:20 <pikhq> Erm, s/autoconf/
04:26:29 <pikhq> Macros to generate a shell script.
04:26:36 <elliott> You want X (say X is "a C99 compiler"). The things loaded for your system (which is determined by another set of this stuff) have a list of things to try to get an X, in order of preference.
04:26:41 <zzo38> pikhq: I used LodePNG simply because I can include it with my program, for one thing.
04:26:43 <elliott> When they find them, they return a generic X.
04:26:48 <elliott> So it just unifies the interfaces.
04:26:54 <pikhq> zzo38: I don't think you can't with libpng.
04:27:33 <pikhq> zzo38: Small handful of files, permissive license, only dependency is zlib.
04:27:48 <pikhq> ... And, of course, sane C compiler/C library.
04:28:54 <zzo38> Yes, libpng depends on zlib. LodePNG has no dependencies other than C standard library.
04:29:13 <elliott> pikhq: [talking to a brick wall]
04:29:32 <zzo38> Still, I am not saying don't use libpng. Is just that I didn't use it.
04:29:32 <pikhq> LodePNG probably copy-pasted the zlib code.
04:29:44 <Sgeo_> Ok, this Uplink LP video just referenced both DS9 and Death Note
04:29:45 <Sgeo_> <3<3<3
04:29:52 <Sgeo_> And the guy's name seems to be Seth
04:30:00 <pikhq> I mean, to get PNG working you *need* to support the algorithm.
04:30:39 <pikhq> Not that there's much point. zlib is ubiquitous.
04:30:46 <zzo38> Yes, it does include the algorithm. But there is only two files: "lodepng.c" (or "lodepng.cpp") and "lodepng.h".
04:31:42 <pikhq> ... As is libpng, for that matter.
04:31:44 <zzo38> The documentation for libpng happens to have the wrong URL for zlib.
04:31:56 <elliott> pikhq: [brick]
04:32:05 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, thanks.
04:32:10 * pikhq throws a brick at zzo38.
04:32:10 <pikhq> :P
04:32:11 <zzo38> Maybe submit the report and then they can correct it please.
04:32:53 <oerjan> <elliott> I would prefer {{tag|div|one=...|...}} <-- it seemed like the subst: step is essential to prevent the tag from ending up as inert text...
04:33:03 <elliott> oerjan: right
04:33:09 <elliott> oerjan: well i made the interface slightly less ugly
04:33:14 <elliott> {{div|_=foo|...}}
04:33:21 <elliott> or if you have nested template applications (dunno why this needs this)
04:33:24 <elliott> {{div|_=foo|text=...}}
04:33:28 <elliott> _ because you end up doing
04:33:31 <elliott> attrs=style="foo" otherwise
04:33:32 <elliott> which looks retarded
04:33:55 <elliott> oerjan: anyway, you're a hero of our time. like Obama and Bob the Builder, you have told us that yes we can.
04:34:01 <oerjan> <elliott> {{span|=attrib="value"|foo}} should work. <-- well it didn't work when they were numbered 1 and 2, but maybe if the last is no. 1 it will.
04:34:20 <elliott> oerjan: hnnnng i'm replying to you fucker
04:35:14 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, but Bob the Builder actually came through on that claim.
04:35:23 <oerjan> elliott: actually i was just wondering if it is necessary to include the ...</div> part in the template at all
04:35:24 <elliott> and so did oerjan
04:35:33 <pikhq> "Yes we can! ... Keep the war going!"
04:35:35 <elliott> let's give bob the builder a nobel peace prize
04:35:36 <elliott> please
04:35:49 <pikhq> Definitely done more for world peace.
04:36:00 <elliott> oerjan: as opposed to a {{/div}} template?
04:36:10 <elliott> yes, that would be far preferable. shall i do that?
04:36:16 <pikhq> Of course, so's the shit I took an hour ago.
04:37:06 <elliott> oerjan: CAN I DOOO THAT
04:37:39 <elliott> pikhq: ps i was hating on obama before it was cool :ANTI-AMERICAN HIPSTER:
04:37:46 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: hnnnng i'm replying to you fucker <-- i am the master of the backscroll *MWAHAHAHA*
04:38:10 <elliott> oh my god ten minutes of masochistic geek porn
04:38:12 <elliott> windows
04:38:16 <elliott> being updated from the first vesrion
04:38:17 <elliott> version
04:38:18 <elliott> to the current
04:38:18 <elliott> in order
04:38:35 <pikhq> elliott: To be perfectly fair, I was never a giant Obama fan.
04:38:46 <elliott> pikhq: you should have seen reddit at the time. maybe you did
04:38:49 <pikhq> elliott: I did.
04:38:56 <elliott> "WE LOVE RON PAUL OMG OMG" [Ron Paul gets kicked out of the race]
04:38:58 <elliott> "OBAMA SO SEXY"
04:39:03 <elliott> A LOGICAL CHANGE
04:39:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:39:42 <elliott> omg
04:39:43 <pikhq> elliott: I felt that Obama was the best reasonably likely choice for President by the election, though.
04:39:45 <elliott> he installed monkey island
04:39:48 <elliott> everyone must watch this video
04:39:53 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPnehDhGa14
04:40:06 <pikhq> Of course, then again, the alternative was fucking *McCain* and Sarah Derplin.
04:40:15 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: as opposed to a {{/div}} template? <-- well is </div> itself actually blocked?
04:40:21 <elliott> oerjan: let's find out
04:40:45 <elliott> pikhq: Honestly, voting in the US is a complete waste of time. (And it's not saying things like that that causes Republicans to get elected, it's your voting system.)
04:40:51 <elliott> oerjan: it indeed is not
04:40:56 <elliott> oerjan: still, a {{/div}} tag would be nice for symmetry
04:41:00 <elliott> oerjan: ok, I'll migrate the templates over
04:41:05 <elliott> pikhq: you should watch <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPnehDhGa14
04:41:06 <elliott> SO AWEOMS
04:41:08 <elliott> AWESOME
04:41:17 <oerjan> <elliott> yes, that would be far preferable. shall i do that? <-- assuming it actually works.
04:41:19 <pikhq> elliott: Quite honestly, the main reason I vote is for local and state affairs.
04:41:35 <elliott> pikhq: right. i mean at the presidential level
04:41:42 <zzo38> http://libpng.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=libpng/libpng;a=tree Many files and more than I require. For programs that need this complexity, good, let's use libpng. It has complicated makefiles and stuff. Why can't you just use the C compiler??? It is because GNU makes programs only in one size: extra-large. But at least is good they make license, you can use with other programs, too.
04:41:54 <pikhq> Yeah, I just vote there because I already have the ballot.
04:41:59 <elliott> zzo38: ...
04:42:06 <elliott> zzo38: LIBPNG IS NOT A GNU PROJECT
04:42:28 <pikhq> (the elections are all on the same ballot)
04:42:48 <zzo38> elliott: I know, but GNU Autoconf is. (So is GCC, but you can use GCC without Autoconf)
04:42:54 <pikhq> zzo38: You do realise that concatenating files together doesn't make a simpler library, right? :P
04:42:56 <elliott> pikhq: You should write in JESUS
04:43:20 <pikhq> elliott: I do strategic voting on that.
04:43:47 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes I realize that.
04:43:52 <elliott> pikhq: Honestly, it's not like you're much less fucked with the Dems :P
04:44:08 <elliott> Actually you guys should elect some really, really terrible right-wing third-party, just to cause a meltdown.
04:44:10 <elliott> You need it.
04:44:15 <pikhq> elliott: If someone fucking crazy has a chance of winning, and someone who's not as crazy also has a chance of winning, I vote for the less crazy.
04:44:36 <pikhq> elliott: Otherwise, I vote for someone who's actually good.
04:45:00 <pikhq> The damned voting system forces me into that.
04:45:16 <elliott> Yeah, and if you continue to bend over and take it, it'll do so forever.
04:45:37 <elliott> On the other hand, your options for revolution are really limited, because the main force in that area is the motherfucking Tea Party, and your country is unreasonably gigantic.
04:46:18 <oerjan> in other news (olds?), hitting the wiki's spam filter is really annoying since the back button frequently tends to wipe out what you were writing
04:46:42 <elliott> oerjan: that's an IE thing
04:46:47 <elliott> no other browsers have that problem
04:46:50 <oerjan> ok
04:47:00 <elliott> <div style="border: 9px solid blue; padding: 9px; background: yellow; color: red; text-align: center"></div>
04:47:00 <elliott> <p>Oh what a <span style="text-decoration: underline; font-style: italic"></span>
04:47:00 <elliott> day&lt;/span&gt;!
04:47:00 <elliott> &lt;/div&gt;
04:47:00 <elliott> </p>
04:47:03 <elliott> ok, well that doesn't work
04:47:13 <pikhq> elliott: Yup, the US system is fucked.
04:47:23 <elliott> oerjan: can you revert the templates to just before "after discussion with oerjan"? :D
04:47:27 <elliott> i'm getting sick of this
04:47:32 <oerjan> i am used to copying the content before saving anyway
04:47:33 <pikhq> elliott: We're pretty much looking at the only change resulting from the whole thing going down in flames.
04:47:46 <pikhq> On the bright side, we seem to be doing just that!
04:48:03 <oerjan> elliott: what went wrong?
04:48:11 <elliott> oerjan: mediawiki balances the html on template inclusion
04:48:20 <oerjan> ah. damn.
04:48:34 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Div&curid=3818&diff=22060&oldid=22056
04:48:34 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Span&curid=3819&diff=22059&oldid=22057
04:48:40 <elliott> those are the diffs to revert to if you want to save me the effort :D
04:49:57 <pikhq> In short, I need a drink.
04:50:06 <oerjan> erm that "omit the "text=" " part should be included?
04:50:14 <oerjan> also i still am not an admin, recall
04:50:20 <elliott> oerjan: yes it should
04:50:23 <elliott> and you don't have to be
04:50:26 <elliott> press edit, fix the top line, save
04:50:31 <elliott> i've done it fifty times is all ;D
04:52:37 <elliott> oerjan: ok so we have the templates to do it, it's just slightly awkward
04:52:56 <elliott> oerjan: i invite you to take a look at http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Ehird&action=edit and imagine how much I yearned for the ability to use div and span during its creation
04:53:06 <elliott> i as a list item? whyever notX
04:53:10 <elliott> erm as a list
04:53:11 <elliott> u is the items
04:53:17 <elliott> u inside i inside b
04:56:06 <zzo38> http://repo.or.cz/w/TeXnicard.git/tree/HEAD:/lodepng This is better file in case of not needed the other programs. Although even this file has things I don't need, too.
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04:57:57 <Vorpal> elliott, still up an about?
04:58:02 <elliott> Vorpal: >_>
04:58:06 <Vorpal> and*
04:58:07 <elliott> macrohauler: i remember your name
04:58:15 <Vorpal> elliott, time for Log!
04:58:16 <macrohauler> yeah i remember yours too :P
04:58:21 <elliott> Vorpal: for Log?
04:58:29 <elliott> macrohauler: yeah i'm that super annoying guy
04:58:32 <Vorpal> elliott, yes. The Log.
04:58:37 <elliott> Vorpal: THE LOG
04:58:47 <elliott> Vorpal: wait did you just get up?
04:58:49 <elliott> it's late night
04:58:59 <macrohauler> elliott: can't recall anyone super annoying, but thanks for the heads up ;)
04:59:00 <Vorpal> arvid=> select tstamp from irc.logs where nick = 'macrohauler' order by tstamp limit 1;
04:59:01 <Vorpal> tstamp
04:59:01 <Vorpal> ---------------------
04:59:01 <Vorpal> 2011-01-21 23:44:46
04:59:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I just got up yes
04:59:08 <macrohauler> wow, some time ago
04:59:17 <Vorpal> elliott, it is 06:58 and the sun is up
04:59:26 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah why would you get up so late in the night
04:59:28 <macrohauler> vorpal: you in europe?
04:59:31 <elliott> HOW can you PHYSICALLY get up so late in the night
04:59:35 <elliott> is it even possible
04:59:48 <Vorpal> macrohauler, yes, and so is elliott (one hour offset from me)
04:59:58 <macrohauler> hm, same here, maybe we're all close?
05:00:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I have to. Leaving for university in ~20 minutes.
05:00:11 <macrohauler> it's 06:58 here as well, so vorpal we must be close
05:00:23 <elliott> Vorpal: since when can higher wants override basic physiology?
05:00:47 <oerjan> clearly Vorpal has blown his human cover
05:00:48 <Vorpal> elliott, since quite some time ago
05:00:51 <elliott> macrohauler: Vorpal is in the immoral, atheistic, primitive country known as "Sverige"
05:00:53 <zzo38> Even, sometimes I can get up in the night, but, not always.
05:00:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, dammit.
05:01:05 <macrohauler> Vorpal: kunde fan tänka mig att du också kom från sverige ;)
05:01:09 <Vorpal> hah
05:01:09 <elliott> NOOOOOO
05:01:10 <macrohauler> elliott: so do i lol :P
05:01:10 <elliott> NOT MORE OF THEM
05:01:15 <Vorpal> macrohauler, en till
05:01:15 <macrohauler> hahah <3
05:01:26 <Vorpal> so how many are we up in?
05:01:28 <zzo38> So, it is physically possible, of course.
05:01:32 <elliott> TOO MANY
05:01:33 * oerjan gives elliott some factor 4 swede protection cream
05:01:37 <macrohauler> lol
05:01:38 <elliott> oerjan: thank you.
05:01:44 <zzo38> I am not capable to do impossible things, nor is anyone else.
05:01:59 <Vorpal> me, macrohauler, olsner, FireFly, BeholdMyGlory. Did I miss anyone?
05:02:08 <elliott> DON'T TELL HIM ABOUT THE SECRET SWEDES
05:02:08 <Vorpal> And how many Norwegians? Just oerjan right?
05:02:20 <zzo38> Maybe you missed ONAFlalWMRklalckkmm
05:02:26 <elliott> he has a good point
05:02:30 <elliott> maybe you did.
05:02:46 <Vorpal> zzo38, never heard of that guy/gal before
05:02:55 <elliott> te prefers "gol"
05:03:00 <Vorpal> whatever
05:03:05 <macrohauler> Vorpal: you don't happen to live in malmö?
05:03:06 <elliott> te's an intra-dimensional alien from outra space.
05:03:09 <elliott> malmo
05:03:11 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
05:03:12 <elliott> that's that place with all the crazy people
05:03:15 <elliott> i believe Vorpal told me that
05:03:15 <macrohauler> ;D
05:03:16 <elliott> or was that umea
05:03:18 <elliott> that was umea
05:03:20 <macrohauler> D:
05:03:22 <Vorpal> macrohauler, hell no!
05:03:24 <macrohauler> lol
05:03:27 <elliott> lol
05:03:28 <elliott> HELL NO
05:03:35 <macrohauler> what's so bad about malmö :p
05:03:35 <elliott> NOT THE VICIOUS HELLHOLE KNOWN AS MALMÖ
05:03:37 <Vorpal> and no, not Umeå
05:04:04 <elliott> I hear Vorpal lives at the North Pole confirm/deny
05:04:08 <Vorpal> macrohauler, well... Did you read the news the past few years? Rosengård and so on...
05:04:25 <elliott> It has also been the scene of regular clashes between youth and police.[3] Fire crews have also been threatened and attacked by local youth. As a result, the Malmö Fire Department refuses to respond to fire calls in Rosengård without police escort.[4]
05:04:26 <elliott> lol at that last bit
05:04:35 <Vorpal> elliott, deny. I'm not Santa. If I were you wouldn't have gotten xmas presents last year.
05:04:38 <elliott> like i said. a vicious and primitive country.
05:04:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Santa lives at the South Pole idiot
05:04:53 <elliott> what do you think that ""scientific station"" really is
05:04:58 <elliott> wake up sheeple
05:04:59 <Vorpal> elliott, oh. Right.
05:05:07 <macrohauler> Vorpal: i live in malmö, i know all about the places, but tbh, the media love to make it seems worse than it really is
05:05:21 -!- augur has joined.
05:05:21 <Vorpal> macrohauler, nothing new *there*
05:05:24 <oerjan> no the one at the south pole is the blue santa, his evil twin brother
05:05:41 <elliott> , macrohauler said, fighting off the gang of immigrants on top of a burning tower
05:05:43 <zzo38> Vorpal: No, someone else would have given the presents if it isn't you.
05:05:58 <zzo38> In case you were Santa, someone else can instead, maybe?
05:06:07 <Vorpal> XD
05:06:22 <macrohauler> ah, brb
05:06:24 <Vorpal> cya
05:06:25 <elliott> i hope zzo38 never leaves us.
05:06:50 <Vorpal> elliott, yes. We have way more priceless moments this way. Which is good for the economy.
05:06:59 <elliott> for everything else there's mastercard
05:07:05 <Vorpal> elliott, Visa
05:07:08 <elliott> cue zzo38 telling us he doesn't own a credit card
05:07:10 <elliott> Vorpal: whoosh
05:07:23 <Vorpal> elliott, wait what?
05:07:29 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=for+everything+else+there's+mastercard
05:07:39 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I know
05:07:50 <oerjan> elliott: oh hm. the separate </div> scheme didn't happen to work when you weren't using a template for </div>, did it?
05:07:55 <zzo38> elliott: Correct, I do not own a credit card.
05:08:12 <elliott> oerjan: i didn't test, but that would be absolutely perverse if it did work like that
05:08:17 <elliott> oerjan: I think it expands it as its own markup thing, so to speak
05:08:18 <Vorpal> actually nor do I. I have a debit card instead. *shrug*
05:09:05 <zzo38> Vorpal: But I have no debit card either. I prefer to work in cash.
05:09:17 <Vorpal> right.
05:09:34 <elliott> ...which is of course utterly pointless
05:09:41 <oerjan> elliott: for one thing, you didn't use subst: with </div> so it might have triggered the same problem i had with using {{tag without subst: ...
05:09:43 <Vorpal> elliott, what is?
05:09:50 <elliott> Vorpal: preferring cash
05:09:53 <Vorpal> oh right
05:09:59 <oerjan> although hm
05:10:11 <elliott> oerjan: well, feel free to test it, i suggest you create userspace templates if you do :)
05:10:12 <Vorpal> elliott, impractical around here. City buses only take commuter card or card.
05:10:15 <Vorpal> err
05:10:18 <Vorpal> that came out awkward
05:10:29 <Vorpal> they take commuter card thingies, and they take credit/debit cards
05:11:20 <Vorpal> brb
05:12:40 <oerjan> elliott: do those go under User: or under Template: ?
05:12:44 <zzo38> It seems even referer tag can cause spam filter to be activated, even refering within the same one!
05:12:45 <elliott> oerjan: User
05:12:47 <elliott> pikhq: I bet you could get most of what autoconf does in... let's be ultra-conservative, two thousand lines of pure shell script.
05:13:10 <elliott> pikhq: That includes basic "C99 compiler" and "pkg-config library" solution-finders.
05:13:53 <pikhq> elliott: You could probably get the sane bits of what autoconf does in that.
05:14:07 <Vorpal> elliott, too low m4 quota in your suggestion. Not messy enough.
05:14:08 <macrohauler> oh btw, if you're interested i'd like some feedback on a new language i'm working on :3
05:14:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, but will it work on hugely outdated DS9K systems?
05:14:43 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, and nor will a lot of the code I write.
05:14:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, fair enough
05:14:58 <Vorpal> anyway, bbl, university
05:14:59 <pikhq> I do not write non-C99 C.
05:15:14 <zzo38> macrohauler: Can you type what it is? What is it?
05:15:19 <pikhq> (modulo failures on my part, of course)
05:15:20 <macrohauler> oh right sry
05:15:34 <macrohauler> http://tertax.macrohaul.com/
05:15:59 <macrohauler> there's a tiny interpreter as well
05:16:30 <elliott> why does your interpreter start using forty-four megabytes then climb insanely quickly
05:16:49 <elliott> also, I'd write a non-AS interpreter if I were you, there's a significant portion of people here who won't use Flash :
05:16:50 <elliott> :)
05:16:54 <macrohauler> tbh, it's the browsers memory combined with the flash players
05:17:05 <elliott> macrohauler: weird that it's so leaky though
05:17:06 <macrohauler> why it rises so quickly, i've not put any time into figuring out yet
05:17:13 <elliott> pikhq: Bleh, I'll write tupconf, it's inevitable :P
05:17:17 <macrohauler> yeh, i'll fix it in the near to distant future
05:17:29 <elliott> pikhq: I dunno if I should waste my time by writing it in shell, but there's little else so portable.
05:17:36 <macrohauler> and yeh, when i get time, i will def write a non-as interpreter
05:17:43 <pikhq> There's a number of bugs in Flash's garbage collector.
05:17:55 <pikhq> For instance, any sufficiently large allocation will never be collected.
05:18:00 <pikhq> elliott: Awk?
05:18:05 <elliott> pikhq: lol
05:18:07 <macrohauler> pikhq: hm, didn't know what
05:18:12 <macrohauler> *that
05:18:19 <elliott> ugh, programming is hard without numbers
05:18:25 <elliott> does anyone have a simple way to map f keys to their numbers? :)
05:19:04 <macrohauler> doesn't seem like it :/
05:19:07 <pikhq> elliott: Well, xmodmap should be able to do it. Probably a pain, though.
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05:20:36 <elliott> http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/53b/making_beliefs_pay_rent_in_anticipated/ ;; this is the funniest post ever
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05:25:28 <oerjan> elliott: it seems that using transclusion rather than substitution is precisely what causes the html to be matched up :(
05:25:35 <elliott> oerjan: right
05:25:43 <elliott> oerjan: oh well, it's still workable, this stuff will never be convenient
05:25:55 <elliott> oerjan: honestly, I would prefer the spam filter be turned off for autoconfirmed users
05:25:57 <elliott> but that requires graue
05:26:30 <oerjan> that _would_ be annoying for anonymous ip's editing already existing pages, though
05:26:44 <elliott> oerjan: less annoying than this
05:27:10 <elliott> surprisingly i managed to do the new main page without any _totally_ gross tag abuse.
05:27:55 * oerjan suddenly gets the evil idea of putting <div> tags on purpose to spam protect pages...
05:28:00 <elliott> :D
05:28:03 <elliott> BEST IDEA
05:28:33 <oerjan> it will not work against those that replace the _whole_ page, but it should work against those section adding ones
05:28:39 <elliott> pikhq: Arrays aren't even portable sh, are they?
05:28:49 <elliott> oerjan: not if they use the "+" link
05:28:57 <oerjan> oh hm right darn
05:29:11 <oerjan> oh well
05:30:55 <elliott> oerjan: btw you mentioned melatonin a while ago. i can confirm it works excellently for putting you to sleep for good amounts of time. i tend to wake up slightly tired, but I think I'm just taking a bit too much. the real issue is making myself take it :D
05:31:18 <elliott> but then with me it's just strong going-to-bed akrasia
05:31:32 <oerjan> <elliott> does anyone have a simple way to map f keys to their numbers? :) <-- your laptop doesn't have a "use Fn to get numpad at jkluio789" feature like mine? i guess that doesn't help with the latter 3...
05:31:41 <elliott> it doesn't, alas
05:31:45 <elliott> they removed that from recent models.
05:32:31 <oerjan> oh hm i'm confused the Fn is just to start numlock
05:32:50 <pikhq> elliott: ... They actually may well be a GNUism.
05:32:56 <elliott> pikhq: I think they are.
05:32:58 <elliott> bashism, rather.
05:33:15 <pikhq> Actually, more likely a Kornism that bash adopted than anything else.
05:33:45 <elliott> yeah
05:37:05 <pikhq> ... Huh.
05:37:31 <pikhq> Apparently each individual neuron peaks at about 200Hz.
05:38:00 <pikhq> So, the human brain is.... Several billion ~100Hz processors in parallel?
05:38:17 <macrohauler> lol nice
05:38:23 <pikhq> No wonder the brain is both awesome and terrible at stuff.
05:38:54 <coppro> less of "processors" and more of "complicated logic gates"
05:38:59 <macrohauler> so ultimately an ai is not so impossible after all
05:39:11 <elliott> what bearing does that have on the possibility of an AI?
05:39:18 <macrohauler> i dunno ;D
05:39:34 <macrohauler> i just don't think AI's are an impossibility
05:39:38 <pikhq> macrohauler: Of course an AI is not impossible.
05:39:42 <elliott> I suppose it has some bearing on how easy it is to simulate a human brain, but I think it was already obvious that neurons themselves are pretty underpowered, the problem is that there's billions of the buggers :)
05:39:55 <macrohauler> Neural Networks?
05:40:05 <pikhq> Insofar as we are aware, the entire set of processes in the human body are computable.
05:40:08 <elliott> Neural networks haven't really paid off as far as I can tell.
05:40:13 <elliott> They're good for some things, but for AI? Nah.
05:40:13 <macrohauler> pikhq: well, a conscious AI
05:40:20 <pikhq> Ergo, it would be *possible* to make a Turing machine do it.
05:40:21 <elliott> define consciousness
05:40:23 <macrohauler> elliott: well, i think they're def the key
05:40:26 <pikhq> Ergo AI is possible.
05:40:29 <elliott> Anything that computes the same things the brain computes is conscious by definition
05:40:51 <pikhq> Note that this completely ignores whether or not we're going to be doing it at all...
05:40:55 <macrohauler> well, aware of them selves? as we're aware we exist, we're human.. the whole "i think therefore i am" thing
05:40:59 <elliott> macrohauler: Neural networks _might_ be useful -- if you're trying to replicate a human brain. But that's only an intermediate goal if anything :)
05:41:02 <coppro> pikhq: I'd wager that there's some quantum effects, but they aren't significant enough to seriously affect the ability to make an humanlike AI
05:41:05 <pikhq> Which is fundamentally a debate over whether engineering will rise to the task.
05:41:05 <elliott> Define aware. Define self.
05:41:09 <elliott> Define exists.
05:41:17 <elliott> Yes, I'm being obstinate :)
05:41:23 <macrohauler> elliott: dont get all philosophic on me
05:41:25 <elliott> But the brain is just a really complicated Turing machine.
05:41:25 <macrohauler> lol
05:41:33 <elliott> macrohauler: You're the one who's doing that by bringing up consciousness :P
05:41:35 <pikhq> coppro: I'd imagine we could simulate such quantum effects as are relevant if we really needed to.
05:41:49 <pikhq> coppro: Just need a decent source of random numbers.
05:41:50 <elliott> coppro: Turing machines can compute all the same things quantum computers can, just slower ;D
05:42:20 <coppro> A Turing machine is deterministic
05:42:39 <macrohauler> elliott: well, i do believe consciousness has nothing to do with how the human brain is built.. consciousness exists with everything, it's one with everything
05:42:48 <elliott> macrohauler: <macrohauler> elliott: dont get all philosophic on me
05:42:52 <coppro> I believe the brain is nondeterministic
05:42:59 <elliott> coppro: It was a joke of sorts.
05:43:02 <pikhq> Actually, on another note. There is no reason we could not directly *create* a human brain analog entirely from scratch.
05:43:19 <pikhq> The brain is matter which is created via reasonably well-understood processes.
05:43:35 <elliott> pikhq: Sure. It'd be quite big though.
05:43:37 <coppro> pikhq: faster to create a fertilized human egg cell :P
05:43:44 <macrohauler> i just believe the way the human brain is built, makes us 'aware', if you like, of this consciousness
05:43:44 <pikhq> It's "merely" an engineering challenge to imitate the same using entirely man-made things.
05:43:45 <elliott> At least I don't think we could build an artificial neuron small enough with our current tech.
05:43:47 <zzo38> coppro: Yes there are quantum effects and maybe you could simulate it I think. A source of random numbers might not be enough to actually count as "consciousness" though??? I don't know, it is philosophical. Anyways, you might not have enough memory or time if it is not a quantum computer. I also believe brain is nondeterministic, but there are high chance and low chance.
05:43:53 <coppro> (can you imagine what the ethicists would say)
05:44:00 <pikhq> elliott: I'm not saying we could *with current tech*.
05:44:10 <elliott> coppro: yeah, CLONING with MUTATIONS???
05:44:12 <pikhq> elliott: Hence why I say it's "merely" an engineering challenge.
05:44:14 <elliott> that should be BANNED
05:44:24 <elliott> there are NO LAWS to REGULATE this kind of stuffXXXXX
05:44:27 <coppro> zzo38: A Turing machine is fundamentally incapable of correctly simulating quantum effects
05:44:34 <coppro> elliott: not cloning with mutations
05:44:38 <coppro> AN ENTIRELY ARTIFICIAL HUMAN
05:44:42 <elliott> coppro: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
05:44:44 <elliott> CREATED BY MAN
05:44:47 <elliott> WHAT HAVE WE WROUGHT
05:44:50 <coppro> elliott: CYLONS
05:44:53 <elliott> coppro: I am referring to breeding here, btw :P
05:44:59 <pikhq> It'd take a hell of a lot of research, but there's no reason to think we couldn't design a full artificial biology.
05:45:01 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, it is what I mean. You can, however, approximate it. But even approximation requires memory and time a lot.
05:45:11 <pikhq> Aside from, of course, us opting not to.
05:45:12 <macrohauler> well, what about the cyborg rat?
05:45:20 <zzo38> So, try it using a quantum computer, to make something somewhat more accurate.
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05:45:33 <coppro> zzo38: A non-deterministic TM would do
05:45:40 <coppro> or we could just not care about the quantum effects
05:45:51 <coppro> It's unlikely they're significant enough that the brain depends on them to get conciousness
05:45:55 <pikhq> coppro: Good thing we can do non-determinism in the "real world". :)
05:46:04 <elliott> Can someone type caret-nr for me
05:46:12 <pikhq> ^nr
05:46:12 <fungot> `1234567890-=~!@#$%^&*()_+
05:46:15 <HackEgo> No output.
05:46:23 <coppro> pikhq: INDEED
05:46:27 <elliott> thanks
05:46:33 <pikhq> Just a geiger counter away.
05:46:49 <coppro> elliott: the thing that amuses me about a purely artifical human being is that it would be COMPLETELY indistinguishable from a real human
05:46:53 <coppro> but people would be pissed off
05:47:17 <elliott> coppro: I'm not sure simulating a human is a worthwhile goal, to be honest
05:47:27 <elliott> In that I don't think it'd teach us much/anything about how to build a better AI
05:47:42 <coppro> elliott: oh, absolutely not
05:47:51 <pikhq> elliott: Simulating a human brain could at least *get* us a better AI hypothetically.
05:47:51 <macrohauler> elliott: no but it wold be a helluvan achievement
05:47:55 <coppro> designing a human egg cell from scratch would teach us little
05:48:03 <elliott> macrohauler: An achievement, sure, I just dunno if it's something we should _bother_ doing :)
05:48:27 <macrohauler> elliott: maybe we'd learn something valuable in the process of doing so?
05:48:42 <pikhq> elliott: Nothing like designing something from scratch, but hey, this simulated brain would no longer have an upper bound of practical skull size.
05:48:47 <macrohauler> as how many brain diseases and damages works?
05:48:48 <elliott> macrohauler: Like what? It'd be an exercise in simulating a neuron... were we to develop an AI from scratch, we would not use such low-level technology.
05:48:50 <zzo38> Then simulate some new brain and new egg cell, and new scratch..... instead of necessarily humans or AI, or Turing machines.
05:49:04 <elliott> We wouldn't find anything more out about disease, we can already take images of the brain.
05:49:14 <elliott> There are too many neurons to do a piece-by-piece analysis of them.
05:49:18 <macrohauler> you NEVER know :P
05:49:26 <elliott> No, but you can make good guesses :)
05:49:26 <coppro> pikhq: your new assignment is to find me a jar to live in
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05:49:34 <elliott> coppro: i have this really nice jar for you
05:49:37 <elliott> would you like to live in it
05:49:39 <elliott> it is a bit small
05:49:42 <elliott> i don't think you'll fit
05:50:07 <coppro> elliott: I'll pay -$10000/month for it
05:50:16 <elliott> coppro: that
05:50:19 <elliott> coppro: that is not much
05:50:21 <macrohauler> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7559150.stm
05:50:38 <elliott> time for
05:50:39 <elliott> THE NEWS HAM
05:50:40 -!- news-ham has joined.
05:50:42 <elliott> news-ham
05:50:43 <news-ham> Cuckoos copy hawks to scare birds: Cuckoos' hawk-like plumage helps them avoid attacks from birds whose nests they are trying to invade, say scientists. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_9458000/9458906.stm
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05:58:06 <zzo38> Is there any kind of FEN notation for Shogi game?
05:59:02 <pikhq> Should only need a symbol for each piece, and use drop notation.
05:59:18 <pikhq> And those symbols exist.
05:59:19 <pikhq> So, yes.
05:59:41 <pikhq> Oh, wait, FEN notation, not algebraic. XD
06:00:29 <pikhq> But, still. Even if there isn't a defined one, it should be trivial.
06:02:27 <zzo38> Yes, but need two parts, one for board, one for pieces not on the board. And some way to indicate if it is promoted. One way to do so, is letters next in the alphabet used for promoted.
06:02:54 <zzo38> And then, to make tsume shogi, put the number of moves also at the beginning (odd numbers only).
06:03:17 <pikhq> The promoted-state of a piece is part of the symbol.
06:03:47 <elliott> hmm
06:03:52 <elliott> does C actually guarantee any kind of char arithmetic
06:03:54 <elliott> i.e. 'B' == 'A'+
06:03:56 <pikhq> + as a prefix for the Latin alphabet symbols, distinct name for the kanji abbreviations.
06:03:56 <elliott> one
06:04:06 <pikhq> elliott: No.
06:04:10 <elliott> Right.
06:04:23 <pikhq> elliott: Pretty sure POSIX does make those guarantees, though.
06:04:35 <zzo38> Kanji abbreviation you do have a distinct kanji for promoted/unpromoted. But if it is ASCII, you need it something else. One way is + sign prefix.
06:05:08 <zzo38> That is why, I was talking about using ASCII, and ASCII does not include kanji.
06:05:24 <pikhq> Anyways, even if it doesn't exist as a real "thing", it'd be very easy for you to define it, and pretty generally accepted by anyone who had the need.
06:06:19 <coppro> elliott: It makes on guarantee; that '0' through '9' are contiguous
06:06:47 <pikhq> coppro: Strange thing to guarantee.
06:07:08 <pikhq> Though I suppose it *does* make itoa nicer.
06:07:10 <coppro> 'a' through 'z' is a bad guarantee; many real-world encodings violate it while '0' through '9' is near-universal
06:07:26 <zzo38> If '0' through '9' are contiguous then it means you can make ('0'+(x%10))
06:07:32 <pikhq> Well, yeah, 'a' through 'z' is broken by EBCDIC.
06:08:12 <coppro> yup
06:08:17 <zzo38> But I think there is problems with EBCDIC. ASCII is better.
06:08:38 * elliott argues with byuu
06:08:48 <pikhq> Yes, ASCII is significantly better than EBCDIC.
06:08:51 <coppro> yep
06:08:57 <elliott> wow, something we can all agree on
06:09:23 <oerjan> wasn't there some encoding that had 1-9 then 0
06:09:38 <oerjan> like baudot or something
06:09:39 <elliott> are you thinking of keyboards :P
06:09:43 <zzo38> Still now exactly how I would have done, but at least ASCII is better than EBCDIC.
06:09:54 <oerjan> well they do too...
06:10:07 <zzo38> oerjan: No, baudot uses FIGURES mode and LETTERS mode. 'Q' is '1', 'W' is '2', and so on across the QWERTY keyboard.
06:10:22 <oerjan> as well as some phones
06:10:28 <zzo38> And neither the letters or numbers are in order.
06:10:28 <coppro> oerjan: baudot has 1-9 followed by 0 lining up with QWERTYUIOP but the actual encoding of those is non-consecutive
06:10:41 <oerjan> ah
06:10:50 <elliott> your MOM is in order
06:10:59 <pikhq> oerjan: Phones are perverse and different.
06:11:29 <pikhq> Remember, the phone system is based entirely around "what made sense 75-100 years ago".
06:11:50 <pikhq> Except *maybe* tone dialing. That's more like 50.
06:11:51 <elliott> pikhq: HAVE YOU WATCHED THAT YOUTUBE VIDEO
06:11:52 <elliott> It is so awesome.
06:11:54 <pikhq> elliott: Yes.
06:12:01 <coppro> YES
06:12:03 <pikhq> elliott: I think I had linked it in here a month ago, actually.
06:12:06 <elliott> You can upgrade from Windows one point oh to Seven and keep all your programsXXXXXXXxXXXXX
06:12:10 <elliott> pikhq: Wasn't that another one?
06:12:12 <zzo38> How do I deal with "mater.pas:20: error: module/unit interface `Crt' could not be imported" I don't know
06:12:13 <pikhq> No.
06:12:15 <elliott> I remember one for all IE versions or something.
06:12:19 <elliott> Some other perverse thing.
06:12:21 <pikhq> 1.0 to 7.
06:12:29 <elliott> pikhq: That's what I said.
06:12:30 <coppro> tone dialing actually makes sense as long as you're on an analog line
06:12:31 <zzo38> Pulse dialing is ten if you want zero. I think, more than ten at once is also same as zero.
06:12:36 <elliott> I can't number, remember.
06:12:57 <fizzie> POSIX only provides the '0' ... '9' guarantee too.
06:13:10 <elliott> FUCK YOU WITH YOUR FACTS
06:13:14 <pikhq> fizzie: I could've *sworn* it provided a guarantee of ASCII.
06:13:18 <pikhq> Aaaw man.
06:13:51 <zzo38> My programs usually depend on ASCII.
06:14:16 <coppro> Mine don't
06:14:17 <fizzie> " Std 1003.1-2001 places only the following requirements on the encoded values of the characters in the portable character set:
06:14:17 <fizzie> # The encoded values associated with the digits 0 to 9 shall be such that the value of each character after 0 shall be one greater than the value of the previous character.
06:14:17 <fizzie> # [some others that aren't so related]"
06:14:25 <zzo38> Sometimes even including the control characters such as start-of-heading and things like that.
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06:14:57 <elliott> hello Fuco
06:15:04 <elliott> fizzie: What are the others?
06:15:22 <pikhq> elliott: char is 8 bit. :)
06:15:28 <elliott> Really?
06:15:39 <zzo38> But I would instead do the encoding that can do ('0'|(x&0xF))
06:15:49 <zzo38> But, it isn't, since we use ASCII instead.
06:16:11 <fizzie> elliott: A null character, NUL, must exist and have the value of 0; all encoded values are representable by a single byte, and if it's stored in a char it's positive (except for NUL), and then one complicated condition about locales.
06:16:19 <elliott> fizzie: OCTET
06:16:22 <elliott> Silly.
06:16:25 <fizzie> No, byte.
06:16:27 <zzo38> At least ASCII is not that bad, though. I just say what would be had I been the people who design the coding.
06:16:27 <elliott> Or is it just... byte.
06:16:31 <elliott> Okay, well that doesn't mean much :)
06:16:36 <fizzie> Though I think they do define CHAR_BIT == 8 elsewhere, yes.
06:16:46 <elliott> "and if it's stored in a char it's positive" Er.
06:16:49 <elliott> Doesn't glibc used signed char?
06:17:43 <pikhq> elliott: Doesn't violate that for ASCII.
06:17:53 <pikhq> elliott: Remember, ASCII is a 7-bit encoding.
06:17:55 <elliott> Oh, right.
06:18:10 <fizzie> The "portable character set" itself is much larger than what C provides, though; it's basically all non-control ASCII characters, plus a few of the control ones.
06:18:59 <elliott> More like portable character sex.
06:19:54 <elliott> SO ANYWAY DERP DERP DERP
06:20:08 <elliott> DERP
06:20:10 <elliott> DERP DERP
06:20:38 <zzo38> CWEB does have a command @' if you want to ensure ASCII codes, but it doesn't always provide the solution. You would still need to add the stuff to your program to convert the codes.
06:20:49 <pikhq> Really wish C made a few stronger guarantees.
06:21:02 <zzo38> Like, @'0'==48 always.
06:21:42 <pikhq> Though I can at least understand why it doesn't: at the time, it was entirely plausible you'd actually have a system without an ASCII-oid character set in use.
06:21:55 <pikhq> Or pointers of distinct sizes for distinct types.
06:22:03 <elliott> /sniff /cry my earthporn post isn't popular SNIFF CRY
06:22:09 <elliott> o how worthless my life is
06:22:25 <elliott> oh, the thumbnail is broken. that might have something to do with it.
06:23:01 <fizzie> Right, the POSIX CHAR_BIT == 8 was sort of implied, not explicit; (1) C itself says CHAR_BIT >= 8; (2) C99 says "intN_t" has width of N, no padding bits and a two's complement representation; (3) POSIX says int8_t is required (not just optional), and since sizeof(int8_t) must be 1 (as CHAR_BIT >= 8) and int8_t can have no padding, CHAR_BIT == 8.
06:23:04 <zzo38> I do suppose, some computers might be possible to be made with distinct pointers, and some other things, including able to have things which are not work in C at all.
06:24:46 <zzo38> Maybe sizeof(int*)!=sizeof(int**) is there any such computers?
06:25:08 <elliott> Probably there are.
06:25:14 <elliott> Although I would expect char there, not int.
06:25:21 <elliott> Since one can imagine a smaller "string pointer" space.
06:25:28 <fizzie> Yes, for sizeof(char*) != sizeof(char**) there probably are. Though not for that reason.
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06:25:37 <fizzie> Well, maybe for that reason too, but still.
06:26:00 <elliott> oerjan: robots?
06:26:21 <fizzie> Some Crays have longer-than-usual char*s, since it encodes (in two words) first a pointer to the word, then the character offset; the memory's not very byte-addressable, but they still fake 8-bit bytes.
06:26:37 <elliott> Crays sound like total DS9Ks.
06:26:40 <elliott> I'm not sure it's worth the OMG SPEED.
06:26:50 <fizzie> --omg-optimize
06:27:03 <elliott> Gentoo to offer thirty-two-bit bytes, for SPEEDXXXX
06:27:07 <elliott> It's a machine wordXXXXXXX
06:27:57 <pikhq> Eh, Crays were pretty much for the few use cases where speed matters above all else.
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06:28:06 <pikhq> Bit of a wonder they actually stuck C and UNIX on there, though.
06:28:23 <pikhq> Fairly antithetical to the computing model.
06:28:39 <fizzie> The people who run their code on ones just write FORTRAN anyway. :p
06:28:56 <pikhq> fizzie: No reason any more.
06:29:06 <pikhq> My cell phone does more FLOPS.
06:29:08 <coppro> I love it when xkcd is google-based
06:29:17 <elliott> pikhq: They still makes Crays, but less perverse ones
06:29:18 <elliott> .
06:29:29 <elliott> coppro: CHARTS AND GRAPHS THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT ARE FUNNY
06:29:42 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, refering to the classic ones.
06:29:47 <coppro> elliott: yes
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06:31:37 <elliott> two-oh-seven-three -- Oceans do not rise one foot
06:31:38 <elliott> Deep.
06:31:49 <elliott> two-oh-sixty-nine -- Public masturbation legalized
06:31:50 <elliott> Clearly.
06:32:01 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: robots? <-- wat
06:32:01 <elliott> As a natural consequence of EVERYONE BEING GAY.
06:32:05 <elliott> oerjan: wat?
06:32:47 <coppro> elliott: I have to vouch for 2069
06:32:47 <fizzie> We had this topic earlier too, but now I'm again disappointed that our neighbour CSC "Center for Scientific Computation" got a really boring paint job for their Cray XT5; compare something like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/JaguarXT5.jpg and http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Oak_Ridge_-_Kraken_%28Cray_XT5%29.JPG with http://www.csc.fi/english/research/Computing_services/computing/servers/louhi/2007-07-13.9357909976/image
06:33:18 <elliott> That Jaguar thing is really bitching, I must say. Seen it before.
06:33:25 <elliott> coppro: Have you, er, been to the future?
06:33:36 <coppro> elliott: nope. That year can't possibly be bad though
06:33:40 <elliott> fizzie: You should go and VIGILANTE REPAINT IT.
06:33:54 <elliott> coppro: its funny because it has six and nine in itXXXXXXXXXXxxoneXXXXXoneONExxxXXone
06:33:56 <fizzie> They might have a lock(tm) on the door.
06:34:05 <elliott> fizzie: You just need a: key(tm).
06:34:11 <coppro> elliott: inorite
06:34:46 <coppro> (protip: ensure you have a sexual companion going into that year)
06:34:55 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
06:34:55 <elliott> IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE
06:34:59 <elliott> IT HAS THE NUMBERS
06:35:01 <elliott> SIX AND NINE IN IT
06:35:03 <elliott> AND THEY ARE:
06:35:06 <elliott> consecutive
06:36:15 <pikhq> fizzie: Seriously, if you're going to have a Cray you *might as well* get a decent appearance on it.
06:36:37 <pikhq> fizzie: After all, that's all the ignorants will see. Good idea to convince them it's actually awesome rather than a bunch of boxes. :P
06:36:58 <elliott> Put BATMAN on it except it's LASER BATMAN and he's friends with KITTENS and shooting LASER BEAMS at COMPUTING PROBLEMS.
06:37:05 <elliott> AND IT'LL RUN AS FAST AS GOOGLE
06:37:09 <elliott> PETABASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES
06:37:11 <elliott> RAAAAAAAAAAH
06:37:11 <fizzie> pikhq: Also the name of the system is Louhi, as in the person with wings in http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Gallen-Kallela_The_defence_of_the_Sampo.png
06:37:16 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yH_j8-VVLo
06:37:48 <elliott> fizzie: Is your Cray powered by LIGHTNING. REAL LIGHTNING?
06:38:06 <elliott> Also, that guy with wings is one weird bro.
06:38:14 <fizzie> It's a "she", actually.
06:38:19 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louhi
06:38:25 <fizzie> Admittedly not very clear from the painting.
06:38:31 <elliott> Your mythology: it is: weird.
06:38:53 <elliott> So, uh, she's the bad guy, right?
06:39:03 <oklopol> "<coppro> zzo38: A Turing machine is fundamentally incapable of correctly simulating quantum effects" "<coppro> zzo38: A non-deterministic TM would do" <<< if these both are about "quantum effects", then what do you mean, nondeterminism doesn't have much to do with quantum stuff
06:39:04 <fizzie> Yes. Well, mostly, anyway.
06:39:15 <coppro> oklopol: Yes it does
06:39:41 <coppro> oklopol: To the best of our knowledge, our universe is not simulatable with a deterministic construction
06:39:47 <coppro> (simulable?)
06:39:51 <elliott> fizzie: Is there, ALL THESE LAYERS, I would NOT UNDERSTAND?
06:39:54 <elliott> TOO DEEP FOR ME
06:40:00 <oklopol> (at least as far as anyone knows)
06:40:03 <elliott> coppro: sure it is.
06:40:08 <elliott> coppro: just pick the right choice at each point.
06:40:14 <oklopol> (except people who have no idea what nondeterminism and quantum stuff are)
06:40:18 <elliott> just store every coin flip since the big bang
06:40:25 <elliott> in fact, if those are truly random, seed a prng with them :)
06:40:27 <elliott> go from there
06:40:31 <coppro> I said "to the best of our knowledge"
06:40:42 <elliott> coppro: did I not just contradict that?
06:40:48 <elliott> there is obviously such a list of coin flips
06:41:10 <coppro> elliott: that is not deterministic
06:41:16 <elliott> why not, it's a fixed list
06:41:22 <elliott> you can run it on a deterministic machine
06:41:28 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: wat? <-- yes, wat.
06:43:04 <elliott> coppro: ?
06:43:20 <oklopol> coppro: i have a hunch you have no idea what you're talking about
06:43:40 <elliott> i would like an explanation of how a fixed initial list of data plus a deterministic algorithm is somehow nondeterministic
06:43:42 <elliott> that is quite a result
06:45:00 <elliott> coppro: well?
06:45:59 <oklopol> coppro: in any case all i'm saying the mathematical concepts of nondeterminic computation and quantum computation don't have any sort of clear connections.
06:46:03 <elliott> oklopol: let's start a betting pool of when we'll get an answer
06:46:30 <oklopol> i'm sure whatever those words mean for you have lots of connections, but then again i'm sure quantum computation means about as much to you as to me: 0
06:46:33 <coppro> elliott: I could just be failing to understand you
06:46:52 <elliott> coppro: The entire nondeterministic part of our universe comes down to coinflips. Yes?
06:46:56 <elliott> Agreed?
06:47:00 <coppro> elliott: No
06:47:03 <oklopol> they do a lot of that stuff at the uni but no courses :(
06:47:09 <elliott> From the POV of a Turing machine simulatng.
06:47:11 <elliott> simulating.
06:47:38 <coppro> oklopol: A quantum computer can be simulated perfectly by a nondeterministic one, although possibly not efficiently
06:47:53 <coppro> elliott: yes (assuming we don't care about efficiency)
06:48:03 <oklopol> coppro: and a nondeterministic one can be simulated perfectly by a deterministic one
06:48:10 <oklopol> and that's a transitive relation
06:48:12 <elliott> coppro: Now consider up to the moment this message was sent.
06:48:18 <coppro> oklopol: no
06:48:20 <elliott> coppro: Every time such a coinflip would have to be made, it results in either zero or one.
06:48:30 <oklopol> no? then we're not talking about turing machines i suppose
06:48:32 <elliott> coppro: Therefore, there is a FINITE LIST of zeroes and ones that constitute the COINFLIP RESULTS of this universe.
06:48:34 <elliott> coppro: Agreed?
06:48:47 <coppro> oklopol: A nondeterministic TM might not produce the same result each time its run
06:48:48 <oklopol> or you have a very weird definition of simulating
06:48:55 <pikhq> elliott: Presuming finite universe.
06:48:57 <pikhq> >:D
06:48:58 <elliott> coppro: These, plus a deterministic computer that looks at the next element of a list whenever it needs to flip a coin, would simulate the universe up to the present.
06:49:00 <oklopol> coppro: how delightfully relevant
06:49:04 <oklopol> thank you for that
06:49:20 <elliott> coppro: Therefore a deterministic computer can simulate the universe.
06:49:44 <coppro> elliott: It can reconstruct the events but not predict them given a state
06:49:55 <elliott> coppro: That is way too vague to respond to.
06:49:59 <oklopol> can i ignore a whole channel?
06:50:04 <coppro> oklopol: /part
06:50:06 <oklopol> :D
06:50:22 <oklopol> i should go to work
06:51:11 <zzo38> You can also set user mode +D (this ignores *all* channels)
06:51:24 <oklopol> i would never ignore #matrixofsolidity
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06:51:43 <elliott> it's a lovely channel
06:51:52 <zzo38> Then you could just use PART or else see if there is a macro in your client that can filter out by channels
06:52:00 <elliott> zzo38: please join #matrixofsolidity
06:52:03 <oklopol> part is out of the question
06:52:24 <oklopol> i wanna be close to you guys
06:52:24 <zzo38> Then see if there is such a macro that can be set in your client.
06:52:30 <oklopol> but i'd also like you to shut up!
06:52:57 <elliott> http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Real-Little-Astounding-Story/dp/0849946158/ref=zg_bs_books_2 ;; this is on the amazon.com bestseller list
06:52:59 <oklopol> well theoretically i could just write one
06:53:12 <elliott> "Told by the father, but often in Colton's own words, the disarmingly simple message is heaven is a real place, Jesus really loves children, and be ready, there is a coming last battle."
06:54:35 <oklopol> haha, god made one helluva blunder there :DS
06:54:49 <oklopol> "WHOOPS HE AIN'T DEAD YET!"
06:55:10 <oklopol> "luckily no one will believe him because christians are such annoying retards"
06:55:12 <zzo38> I know that my client can be made macro to filter many things with /F command, but I am sure other IRC client must have filters too, although the command is probably not /F it might be a menu instead.
06:55:23 <oklopol> yeah, god is quite the asshole.
06:55:54 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> haha, god made one helluva blunder there :DS <oklopol> "WHOOPS HE AIN'T DEAD YET!" <oklopol> "luckily no one will believe him because christians are such annoying retards"
06:55:56 <HackEgo> 368) <oklopol> haha, god made one helluva blunder there :DS <oklopol> "WHOOPS HE AIN'T DEAD YET!" <oklopol> "luckily no one will believe him because christians are such annoying retards"
06:56:48 <zzo38> Not all Christians are, but there are a lot of Christians that are such annoying retards.
06:56:51 * pikhq wonders at the whole "The Lord is my shepard" bit.
06:57:04 <pikhq> So, the Lord converteth me to lamb cutlets?
06:57:14 <elliott> Yes.
06:57:44 <pikhq> So, I suppose we little ones shall have to learn the art of karate, and then we'll make the bugger's eyes water.
06:58:29 <elliott> [["I strongly believe the President needs to be removed from office by the U.S. Military and tried under the military court system."img "Am I advocating a military coup? No I am not." Actually, it would appear that you are, Johnny. Somebody call the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services FBI. P-Foster (talk) 01:45, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
06:58:29 <elliott> F..U..C..K..!!!! What is he on? --Scream!! (talk) 01:53, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
06:58:29 <elliott> Holy fuck. That's a whole new level of insane cognitive dissonance. --The Emperor 02:02, 16 April 2011 (UTC)]]
06:58:32 <elliott> Oh come on RationalWiki.
06:58:39 <elliott> You'd rejoice if they did that to Bush.
06:58:40 * oklopol considers "<zzo38> Not all Christians are, but there are a lot of Christians that are such annoying retards." rather quoteworthy as well
06:58:47 <elliott> me too
06:58:49 <elliott> just didn't wanna seem
06:58:50 <elliott> quote-pushy
06:58:53 <oklopol> same
06:58:53 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> Not all Christians are, but there are a lot of Christians that are such annoying retards.
06:58:54 <HackEgo> 369) <zzo38> Not all Christians are, but there are a lot of Christians that are such annoying retards.
06:58:59 <elliott> the deed is done
06:59:11 <elliott> three hundred and sixty nine quotes
06:59:15 <elliott> why is that funny coppro?
06:59:16 <elliott> it is funny
06:59:19 <elliott> because it has a six
06:59:20 <elliott> and that six
06:59:22 <elliott> is followed by a nine
06:59:29 <elliott> which ends the number and nothing follows it you idiot
06:59:38 <elliott> [asterisk]and so
06:59:55 <zzo38> It has 3,6,9 is the sequence, too. And it is divisible by three.
07:00:38 <oklopol> those are some of its better qualities
07:01:31 <oklopol> i wanna read that book to make me long for heaven just a little more :o
07:01:41 <elliott> y
07:01:42 <elliott> oops
07:01:44 <oklopol> oh shit i'm late ->
07:01:49 <elliott> oklopol: no
07:01:50 <elliott> you are just
07:01:52 <elliott> twenty three hours early
07:01:55 <oklopol> ah.
07:02:00 <oklopol> bye tho ->
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07:21:20 <zzo38> What kind of shortcuts can be taken in an algorithm for tsume shogi?
07:21:49 <zzo38> Probably one is, ignore moves without check, and do not look far ahead than the number of moves specified
07:22:58 <zzo38> In a few cases doesn't matter if you promote or not, but sometimes it does matter, even Flying Chariot->Dragon King can sometimes matter in case of pawn drops.
07:23:01 <zzo38> But is there others?
07:23:11 <elliott> isn't there a chess channel for this?
07:23:40 <zzo38> I don't know. Is there channel for tsume shogi?
07:23:55 <elliott> a chess variants channel would seem to fit that
07:24:11 <elliott> zzo38: there is ##chess
07:24:14 <zzo38> O, there is ##chess on this server, I don't know if they do programming
07:24:16 <elliott> more people might have answers there
07:24:31 <zzo38> Yes I found ##chess already, I try by TOPIC command can be used to try channels.
07:28:54 <zzo38> It seems maybe they don't know. Do you know tsume shogi?
07:29:05 <elliott> How did you deduce they do not know?
07:30:47 <zzo38> Maybe they do know. But not yet.
07:31:02 <zzo38> Or maybe they know chess but not tsume shogi.
07:31:04 <elliott> zzo38: How a spider???? Now---ajodisdioj
07:32:09 <zzo38> I don't know????
07:32:18 <elliott> zzo38: O.
07:34:47 <zzo38> Maybe the Japanese knows more about the tsume shogi.
07:35:00 <elliott> Go to Japan and ask them. Or, maybe do not.
07:41:01 <elliott> oerjan: dance
07:41:56 <zzo38> Do you know any shortcuts in tsume shogi other than what I have mentioned already?
07:43:14 * oerjan is starting to detect a pattern here
07:43:39 <elliott> zzo38: YOGI BEAR
07:43:41 <elliott> oerjan: what
07:43:54 <oerjan> what?
07:44:07 <zzo38> elliott: What about YOGI BEAR?
07:44:09 <elliott> ooh, vcs war
07:44:19 <elliott> bram cohen and russell o'connor agreeing
07:45:21 <elliott> i need a octothorpe people
07:45:24 <elliott> come through for me
07:46:07 <zzo38> No, you need to fix your computer instead.
07:46:13 <elliott> Shut up.
07:47:00 <elliott> oerjan: can you prove the finite axiom of choice????????/////////////
07:47:17 <oerjan> probably.
07:48:26 <zzo38> Try.
07:48:45 <elliott> oerjan: but russell o'connor says you won't do it properly :(
07:49:50 <elliott> anyway
07:52:04 <oerjan> Let M be a finite family of nonempty sets. We will prove it by induction on the cardinality of M. If M is empty then picking an element from each element of M is trivial. Otherwise let X be an element of M, and x an element of X. (These choices are made simply by predicate logic.) M\{X} is then a set of cardinality less than M, so by induction we can pick an element from each element of M\{X}. Add x for X to the choices for M\{X}. Q.E.D.
07:53:22 <elliott> oerjan: http://r6.ca/blog/20110307T035926Z.html
07:53:25 <elliott> oerjan: Did you fall into his TRAP
07:55:01 <oerjan> given that i never wrote a list of elements of M, i'd say no.
07:55:13 <elliott> a genius of our ages
07:55:27 <elliott> oerjan: you know what's BETTER than robots?
07:55:30 <elliott> (i bet he doesn't)
07:55:35 <oerjan> MORE robots
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07:55:43 <elliott> oerjan: ...
07:55:47 <elliott> (omg he knows the secret)
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08:01:00 <nooga> {tm}
08:04:51 <elliott> wa
08:04:52 <elliott> t
08:05:29 <oerjan> obviously nooga has been trademarked
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08:34:59 <elliott> the world is made out of fish
08:35:03 <elliott> omg oerjan left
08:35:04 <elliott> so sad
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08:41:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what are the friends my haps
08:41:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't know.
08:41:43 <Phantom_Hoover> What are the haps my friends.
08:41:45 <news-ham> China property price growth slows: China's property price growth slowed in March, as fewer Chinese cities saw an increase in the price of new homes. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/business-13111838
08:41:48 <elliott> ...
08:41:50 <elliott> how is that still running
08:41:53 <elliott> Xeleven died
08:42:02 <elliott> news-ham: YOU ARE IMMORTAL REDDIT
08:42:03 <news-ham> Great Salt Flats after a rain http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/gsayb/great_salt_flats_after_a_rain/
08:42:08 <Phantom_Hoover> IT'S A GHOST
08:53:53 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfOyE5b2jh4&feature=feedu
08:54:06 <Phantom_Hoover> "Arrow" IT'S A QUARREL YOU FOOL
08:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> OR A BOLT
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09:23:12 <elliott> Yahweasel: Is there a better server-side JS solution than Node? Say yes.
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09:31:40 <monqy> server-side JS?
09:32:13 <Ilari> Hah: "Then along came the iPhone and all of a sudden people started to actually mobile data for something, which was quickly followed by the realisation that «CGN sucks»."
09:32:21 <Phantom_Hoover> CGN?
09:32:28 <Ilari> Carrier Grade NAT
09:33:53 <Ilari> Mobile connections might be the downfall of RIPE.
09:34:13 <elliott> monqy: yes. don't ask.
09:35:10 <monqy> "JS solution" sounds peculiar to me too, unless it's about solving JS
09:35:41 <elliott> "solution" is buzzword speak for "thing that does this" :)
09:35:46 <elliott> (server-side JS) solution
09:37:14 <monqy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_server-side_JavaScript_solutions well fancy that
09:37:33 <monqy> even wikipedia calls it that
09:37:38 <elliott> heh
09:37:48 <elliott> it's the language, it attracts the mindlessness :)
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09:52:04 <Ilari> There's talk on ipv4depletion about RIPE possibly soon getting hit with some huge allocation requests.
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10:00:09 <Ilari> And no, Those huge requests are not for IPv6 /20s or such (AFAIK, the biggest RIPE NCC IPv6 allocations to ISPs are /20s). :-/
10:00:59 <nooga> http://dragomir.org/360/ <-- this software renderer performs really nice btw.
10:12:50 <Ilari> There are two /19s, but AFAIK those are LIRs.
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10:47:56 <elliott> helo Phantom_Hoover
10:47:57 <elliott> stop disconnected
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12:34:24 <Yahweasel> <elliott> Yahweasel: Is there a better server-side JS solution than Node? Say yes. // GOD I wish there was X_X
12:34:31 <elliott> OH JOY
12:34:55 <elliott> Yahweasel: Is, say, writing a manual wrapper around SpiderMonkey superior to Node? :P
12:35:08 <elliott> WELCOME TO JAVASCRIPT, CAPITAL OF PAIN CENTRAL
12:36:20 <Yahweasel> Depends on what you're trying to do.
12:37:16 <elliott> Part of Normish Two's goal is to be a host to EVERY OTHER CODENOMIC EVER, and I've decided that rewriting Ecmanomic would be more productive than using it.
12:37:50 <elliott> Related: Is there any way to get [any JS engine] to store comments in a function for toString(), Ecmanomic stuff does String("a comment"); for that and it's insanely ugly.
12:46:56 * oerjan gets the idea of a codenomic in lazy ///
12:47:27 <elliott> oerjan: wat
12:47:40 <oerjan> just feed the messages into it as a stream...
12:47:59 <elliott> oerjan: oh, you mean the traditional kind of codenomic?
12:48:12 <elliott> vs. things like perlnomic, where you interact with a non-code UI
12:48:37 <oerjan> well it's the obvious way to feed anything to /// ...
12:48:49 <elliott> oerjan: hm is there a way to turn something like \/a\/b\/ into /a/b/ in ///
12:48:54 <elliott> that is, unescape some delimited text
12:48:55 <elliott> so it becomes code
12:49:02 <elliott> if so, you could even do proposals, I guess
12:49:12 <elliott> /proposal lotsofvotes escapedstuff/itscodenow/
12:49:29 <oerjan> /XX/\/a\/b\//XX
12:49:38 <elliott> oerjan: cheat :)
12:49:39 <elliott> i think
12:49:43 <elliott> I mean
12:49:44 <elliott> de-escape
12:49:47 <elliott> not just replace a placeholder
12:49:57 <elliott> (i'm thinking that you'd just escape _every_ message, and if it was a proposal, it'd de-escape later, if it got enough votes)
12:50:02 <elliott> (otherwise you could just insert arbitrary code)
12:50:48 <oerjan> the problem is how to escape messages without also escaping your program parts
12:51:08 <elliott> oerjan: well let's say this was a slightly more featured language :D
12:51:13 <elliott> consider this
12:51:15 <oerjan> bah
12:51:19 <elliott> oerjan: no no
12:51:20 <elliott> i don't mean in practice
12:51:23 <elliott> i mean to demonstrate what i mean
12:51:25 <oerjan> well /// may not be ideal for this :D
12:51:34 <elliott> ok, so you replace \ and / with backslash, plus those characters, in the input message, right?
12:51:36 <elliott> and append it
12:51:36 <elliott> now
12:51:40 <elliott> there could be a rule like this
12:52:06 <elliott> /proposal votes=lots STARTCODE(...)ENDCODE/de-escape(...)/e
12:52:09 <elliott> where de-escape does the obvious inverse
12:52:20 <elliott> in this way, we just escape all input data, and then selectively turn it into code
12:52:24 <elliott> obviously in /// it will be more involved
12:52:28 <elliott> but I take it that kind of thing is possible?
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12:55:10 <oerjan> it may need a more involved encoding than just \ escaping
12:55:18 <elliott> oerjan: that's why i said more involved
12:55:24 <elliott> I'm just saying, that sort of thing is surely possible
12:55:26 <oerjan> see: all that mess to get a main loop going
12:55:53 <elliott> /\\\\/\\//\\\//\//
12:55:58 <elliott> that's a basic de-escaping thing :D
12:56:01 <elliott> so pretty
12:56:50 <elliott> oerjan: observe pretty
12:57:04 <oerjan> the always present subtlety is that after running such a de-escaping your program won't contain any instances of the original string, anywhere
12:57:14 <elliott> of course :)
12:58:29 <Vorpal> hi
12:58:34 <oerjan> lo
12:58:40 <Vorpal> elliott, STILL up? or have you slept?
12:58:49 <elliott> yes i have absolutely slept. for a very long time.
12:59:23 <Vorpal> hm doesn't look like it
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13:00:56 <Vorpal> random: in an alternate universe, zombies make horror movies about the living.
13:01:23 <elliott> more like... mundane movies
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13:07:16 <Vorpal> elliott, no that would be a mirror universe
13:07:34 <elliott> `quote ALTERNATE UNIVERSE
13:07:38 <HackEgo> 17) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 23) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to get head twice at once \ 24) <oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird has taste \ 25) IN AN
13:07:52 <Vorpal> elliott, mirror universes are however a sub-class of alternate universes
13:08:32 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
13:08:34 <HackEgo> 115) <apollo> Why couldn't we have just kept STD?
13:09:13 <Vorpal> that one doesn't make a lot of sense outside context. Unless it is supposed to be a rather lame joke about STD as in HIV, and so on
13:09:24 <oerjan> we need all the aids we can get
13:09:26 <elliott> that one sucks
13:09:30 <elliott> `delquote 115
13:09:31 <HackEgo> *poof*
13:09:39 <elliott> like 90 percent of the Sine quotes suck EVEN MORE than our worst efforts :D
13:09:43 <Vorpal> elliott, it might have been funny in the context. Who knows.
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13:15:10 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, Sine?
13:15:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's this thing.
13:33:38 <Yahweasel> <Vorpal> that one doesn't make a lot of sense outside context. Unless it is supposed to be a rather lame joke about STD as in HIV, and so on // HELLO WELCOME TO QUOTE DATABASES 101
13:35:05 <elliott> lol
13:35:20 <elliott> <Yahweasel> <Vorpal> that one doesn't make a lot of sense outside context. Unless it is supposed to be a rather lame joke about STD as in HIV, and so on // HELLO WELCOME TO QUOTE DATABASES 101
13:35:21 <elliott> this is funny
13:35:25 <elliott> `addquote <elliott> <Yahweasel> <Vorpal> that one doesn't make a lot of sense outside context. Unless it is supposed to be a rather lame joke about STD as in HIV, and so on // HELLO WELCOME TO QUOTE DATABASES 101
13:35:27 <elliott> I AM UNSTOPPABLE
13:35:28 <HackEgo> 369) <elliott> <Yahweasel> <Vorpal> that one doesn't make a lot of sense outside context. Unless it is supposed to be a rather lame joke about STD as in HIV, and so on // HELLO WELCOME TO QUOTE DATABASES 101
13:35:32 <elliott> THAT QUOTE IS AMBIGUOUS FOREVER
13:35:34 <elliott> `quote
13:35:34 <elliott> `quote
13:35:35 <elliott> `quote
13:35:35 <HackEgo> 101) <MissPiggy> bi is like sqrt(2)/2 * straight + i * sqrt(2)/2 * gay
13:35:35 <elliott> `quote
13:35:36 <HackEgo> 67) <oklopol> hmm, this is hard
13:35:37 <HackEgo> 105) <Warrigal> A person's sex is not the same thing as their penis length.
13:35:37 <elliott> `quote
13:35:38 <HackEgo> 110) <fax> oklopol geez what are you doing here <oklokok> ...i don't know :< <oklokok> i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things...
13:35:39 <HackEgo> 168) <alise> So basically we're having an awful lot of very dangerous intercourse. <alise> Involving open wounds. <coppro> I'm going to take a shower
13:39:25 <elliott> `quote
13:39:25 <elliott> `quote
13:39:25 <elliott> `quote
13:39:26 <elliott> `quote
13:39:26 <elliott> `quote
13:39:27 <HackEgo> 255) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly)
13:39:27 <elliott> `quote
13:39:27 <HackEgo> 142) <fungot> [...] i'm a law student so i am loving my bread machine
13:39:28 <HackEgo> 243) <Sgeo> My quotes are boring
13:39:28 <HackEgo> 249) <fizzie> The Perl script is probably slower than the Befunge code.
13:39:29 <HackEgo> 341) <fungot> oerjan: are you in an aware state when the only hammer you have is for variable assignation and blocks
13:39:30 <HackEgo> 120) <Miya> I perceived it so hard I actually went away :O
13:42:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Professional Octopus of the World!
13:42:35 <elliott> Yes.
13:42:37 <elliott> The best name.
13:42:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Better than Sample Company?
13:43:01 <elliott> Yes.
13:43:12 <elliott> Unfortunately nothing can possibly be good enough to have the name Professional Octopus of the World.
13:43:45 * oerjan is reminded of the card game Lord of the Fries
13:43:54 <elliott> Lord of the Files
13:43:54 <Phantom_Hoover> How about a game wherein one plays a suave, jetsetting octopus touring the world?
13:44:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Insufficiently good.
13:44:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I can already see the cover art.
13:44:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Jetsetting Octopus of the World, maybe.
13:44:17 <elliott> But not Professional Octopus of the World.
13:44:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm.
13:44:38 <oerjan> i think it had octopi as well
13:44:55 <Phantom_Hoover> A businessoctopus which flies around the world making business trips?
13:44:59 <elliott> NO.
13:45:00 <oerjan> maybe not sandwiches thoug
13:45:02 <oerjan> *h
13:45:04 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, *OCTOPODES YOU UNEDUCATED FOOL
13:45:06 <elliott> You are diluting the concept with human business crap.
13:45:09 <elliott> Professional Octopus of the World.
13:47:43 <Vorpal> elliott, a hyper-realistic octupus simulator.
13:48:12 <Vorpal> elliott, for use with 3D glasses (of the type with an LCD in front of each eye)
13:48:28 <elliott> No.
13:48:31 <elliott> Professional Octopus of the World.
13:48:43 <Vorpal> hm
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13:49:14 <elliott> if copumpkin was an octopus, he'd be a coctopus.
13:49:33 <Vorpal> OKAY
13:49:45 <elliott> it's funny because it sounds like cocktopus
13:49:57 <Vorpal> I realise that was your intention
13:50:05 <elliott> yes.
13:50:08 <elliott> just making it clear.
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14:13:03 <augur> anyone here both on a PC and also interested in a Black Prophecy beta invite?
14:13:58 <elliott> Define PC.
14:14:04 <elliott> Do you mean "Windows".
14:14:16 <augur> yes
14:14:20 <augur> obv.
14:14:23 <elliott> Good luck with that.
14:14:26 <elliott> And no it's not obvious.
14:14:27 <augur> :P
14:14:29 <elliott> PC does not mean Windows.
14:14:35 <augur> shut your face!
14:14:44 <elliott> You been watching too many Apple ads.
14:15:19 <augur> linux machines arent tained by the name that is PC
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14:17:59 <tswett> fungot: please say something witty.
14:18:00 <fungot> tswett: being able to use mouse in elinks with gpm? :) ( i.e. how to set up
14:18:42 <tswett> fungot: I hate you.
14:18:43 <fungot> tswett: in that case, it must be big and ugly and impressively brute force. :p couldn't do it in ocaml too long since i've written c code ( instead of the innate oko nature
14:18:48 <elliott> tswett: you are cruel
14:18:57 <elliott> tswett clearly knows nothing of AI rights
14:19:04 <elliott> he's an AIist.
14:19:19 <tswett> fungot: I love you.
14:19:19 <fungot> tswett: i thought you were old and wise or something. i asked you what you have currently traversed
14:19:30 <tswett> elliott: he's making fun of me for loving him. :(
14:19:44 <tswett> fungot: okay, I hate you instead.
14:19:44 <fungot> tswett: the first time
14:20:02 <elliott> tswett: he just can't believe that someone so old and wise could love _HIM_
14:20:19 <tswett> No, he definitely doesn't want to be loved.
14:20:25 <tswett> Anyway, it's bedtime again. Good night!
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14:37:53 <Vorpal> aha
14:37:56 <Vorpal> found that uplink bug
14:40:59 <Vorpal> elliott, the saved path was not persisted on disk in the old version I had source for. And my adding of the path editing feature found in later versions introduced a bug so gateway could go missing from trace. Fixed both.
14:41:07 <elliott> lawl
14:41:12 <Vorpal> elliott, ?
14:41:16 <elliott> Just amusing.
14:41:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Now fix that global loan counter and increase the bankHackingDifficulty variable by five thousand.
14:41:31 <elliott> Erm. Global credit rating counter.
14:41:34 <Vorpal> elliott, that gateway could go missing? Well it didn't check for 127.0.0.1 when editing path :P
14:41:53 <elliott> What happened if you connected without the gateway? :P
14:42:09 <Vorpal> elliott, messy, I don't want to change save format. I stored the stored path in a separate file to avoid invalidating save games
14:42:18 <Vorpal> elliott, it worked
14:42:24 <Vorpal> elliott, no idea about trace
14:42:29 <elliott> Vorpal: Bah, who cares about changing the save format.
14:42:30 <Vorpal> would probably have crashed then
14:42:32 <elliott> What matters here is COOLNESS.
14:42:39 <Vorpal> I have NO idea how updating save from previous formats work
14:42:51 <elliott> You should add QUANTUM COPROCESSORS.
14:42:56 <elliott> They can HACK THE ELLIPTIC CURVES INSTANTLY.
14:43:18 <Vorpal> elliott, no, now I need to add "valid ip" stuff
14:43:45 <Vorpal> elliott, so, is there any list of which /24s in 1/8 are considered too noisy to use?
14:43:51 <Vorpal> 1.2.3/24 I know
14:43:57 <elliott> Har.
14:43:57 <Vorpal> and 1.0.0/24 iirc
14:43:58 <elliott> I don't know.
14:44:01 <Vorpal> but I think there are more
14:44:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Just use all valid IPs.
14:44:08 <elliott> Nobody is going to try using them for anything :P
14:44:08 <Vorpal> elliott, for realism you need to avoid these
14:44:13 <elliott> X_X
14:44:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Avoid anything starting with a one.
14:44:24 <Vorpal> elliott, not realistic either!
14:44:24 <elliott> In fact, anything starting with anything less than ten looks weird.
14:44:28 <elliott> Apart from that four point whatever DNS server.
14:44:31 <elliott> Vorpal: X_X
14:44:47 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm doing df realism in this bit, okay?
14:45:12 <elliott> In the least important place :P
14:45:15 <Vorpal> elliott, I need to avoid broadcast areas
14:45:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I find this is suspension of disbelief breaker to me
14:45:38 <elliott> Bullshit.
14:45:46 <elliott> The suspension of disbelief breaker is THE ENTIRE GAME.
14:45:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't mind all the other outrageous stuff, but this is just jarring.
14:45:58 <elliott> Vorpal: An entire reworking of IP addressing is ten times as realistic as the rest of the game.
14:46:12 <Vorpal> elliott, yes?
14:46:13 <elliott> Why are you trying to force our-universe conventions on their future?
14:46:13 <variable> :-|
14:46:21 <elliott> They might LOOK like IPvFour addresses.
14:46:27 <elliott> But they're actually IPvNineteen addresses.
14:47:20 <Vorpal> $ whois 128.128.128.128
14:47:20 <Vorpal> why does that not work
14:47:20 <Vorpal> it seems to time out
14:47:21 <Vorpal> wtf
14:47:21 <Vorpal> ah here it comes
14:47:35 <Vorpal> elliott, then it should say so!
14:47:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Does it document every other detail of its internet for you? No.
14:48:00 <Vorpal> elliott, like those extra credentials PH suggested you mentioned should be in game then
14:48:22 <elliott> Vorpal: For god's sake, connecting to a down computer gives you a four-oh-four.
14:48:27 <elliott> Clearly the infrastructure is completely different.
14:48:46 <Vorpal> elliott, what do you have *against* realistic IPs?
14:49:22 <Vorpal> elliott, well?
14:49:33 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm saying that your definition of realistic is wrong.
14:49:49 <elliott> It's about as reasonable as saying they should measure the storage in the number of tapes required.
14:49:56 <elliott> It is not the same universe.
14:50:02 <elliott> It is not the same internet.
14:52:33 <Vorpal> sprintf ( ip, "%d.%d.%d.%d", NumberGenerator::RandomNumber (1000), NumberGenerator::RandomNumber (1000), NumberGenerator::RandomNumber (1000), NumberGenerator::RandomNumber (1000) );
14:52:34 <Vorpal> aha!
14:52:41 <Vorpal> There it is
14:52:44 <elliott> Sigh
14:53:11 <Vorpal> setting it to 255 should be a good start.
14:53:28 <elliott> You realise all the game data files will have hardcoded IPs? I think.
14:53:28 <Vorpal> elliott, this means that they don't avoid valid ones as you suggested!
14:53:36 <elliott> I never suggested that,
14:53:39 <elliott> [asterisk]that.
14:53:40 <Vorpal> elliott, they are not in the data files. They are in the source
14:53:46 <Vorpal> elliott, #defines
14:53:53 <elliott> Well, you must leave Uplink's alone.
14:53:55 <elliott> Six six six.
14:54:13 <Vorpal> elliott, there are some hard coded ones yes. Some I will leave alone. Some I might change.
14:54:21 <elliott> SIX SIX SIX
14:54:35 <Vorpal> elliott, I might if you start using that osd keyboard
14:54:40 <Vorpal> and contacts apple
14:55:00 <Vorpal> dude I just realised you could get duplicate ips
14:55:08 <Vorpal> there is no handling of that
14:55:26 <Vorpal> elliott, ^
14:55:32 <elliott> lol
14:55:51 <elliott> "Crack whores on crack? What the fuck does that mean?"
14:56:36 <Vorpal> if that is handled, it is handled elsewhere
14:56:36 <Vorpal> well bbl, going to make food
14:56:55 <elliott> Wait, what IPs aren't hardcoded? Just the log entries?
14:56:58 <elliott> If so, I guess it doesn't matter.
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15:09:08 <elliott> "I made the decision that if she came within 10 feet of me, I would have to kill her and hide the body in the shadows, where no patrolling librarians would ever dare looking."
15:10:41 <cheater> [17:08] <BONUS> last call for free review copies of LYAH!
15:10:42 <cheater> [17:09] <BONUS> if you want a free copy & want to review it on amazon, msg me!
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15:31:17 <elliott> "For the record, Archive Team is downloading Google Video as we speak, but with only 14 days to do it, it's going to be a very small amount."
15:31:24 <elliott> WOULD PEOPLE STOP FUCKING RM -RFING SHIT THEY DIDN'T CREATE
15:32:34 <Vorpal> <elliott> Wait, what IPs aren't hardcoded? Just the log entries? <-- ?
15:32:51 <Vorpal> int x, y;
15:32:51 <Vorpal> GenerateValidMapPos ( x, y );
15:32:51 <Vorpal> VLocation *vl = game->GetWorld ()->CreateVLocation ( IP_INTROVERSION, x, y );
15:32:51 <Vorpal> vl->SetListed ( false );
15:32:54 <Vorpal> elliott, that is an example
15:33:16 <Vorpal> yes mixed space and tab indention. They seem to use 4 spaces = 1 tab though
15:33:31 <Vorpal> but they are not consistent
15:33:36 <Vorpal> sometimes space, sometimes tab
15:33:48 <Vorpal> sometimes mixed in the same function
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15:37:09 <elliott> "The dots are likely due to radiation hitting the CCD (the light-receptive sensor in the camera) and/or RAM (hitting the RAM prior to JPEG encoding). So here's the question: given the number of dots in the picture (in this case, at least 27 in a 367x234 region), can we determine the radioactivity level?"
15:37:09 <elliott> :D
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16:07:26 <Vorpal> elliott, for a number of reasons no: one imaging element could be hit multiple times. And there is the heat noise issue in many cases.
16:07:35 <elliott> SHUT UP
16:07:35 <Vorpal> elliott, got a link to this craziness?
16:07:42 <elliott> it isn't crazinessit's aeome
16:07:47 <elliott> so awoemmm
16:07:49 <elliott> e eoamg[
16:07:50 <elliott> lk rsnfjg]sdqw cvgh
16:07:51 <Vorpal> elliott, got a link to it anyway
16:07:51 <elliott> bjnk/>"|
16:07:59 <elliott> ]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
16:08:04 <Vorpal> elliott, and the link?
16:08:13 <elliott> sorry i had to lie on my keybaord
16:08:17 <elliott> m,.m/L:;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;:.'\
16:08:17 <elliott> ]
16:08:31 <elliott> http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/427-Radiation-Detection.html
16:08:32 <Vorpal> ah found it with google
16:09:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm sorry to disappoint you but http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_Uw91icJn-go/Tasd5JjZsoI/AAAAAAAAB1U/dNLiJ8YCHVg/s800/110412_1f_tsunami_6-crop.png is most likely due to a bad sensor. My camera has some of that in one corner.
16:09:57 <Vorpal> elliott, what you need to do is take two images on the same time/shutter/iso
16:09:58 <elliott> No apparently RADAR causes it too
16:09:59 <Vorpal> and compare them
16:09:59 <elliott> See COMMENTS
16:10:02 <elliott> From REAL SCIENCE PEOPLE
16:10:09 <Vorpal> then eliminate the dots that are dead pixels
16:10:09 <elliott> You are fagging up the aweoms here
16:10:12 <Vorpal> then you can use this
16:10:21 <Vorpal> elliott, I suggested a working way
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16:13:11 <Vorpal> elliott, actually this only makes good sense with raw images
16:16:59 <Vorpal> elliott, but what I said was also mentioned in the comments
16:17:31 <elliott> Guess who else was mentioned in the comments
16:17:33 <elliott> YOUR
16:17:34 <elliott> MOM
16:17:43 <Vorpal> elliott, you seriously need sleep
16:17:50 <elliott> No, I just need less Vorpal ;D
16:18:09 <elliott> Usage: fortune -P [] -a [xsz] [Q: [file]] [rKe9] -v6[+] dataspec ... inputdir
16:18:11 <elliott> --fortune(one)
16:18:13 <elliott> Troll fortune.
16:19:30 <Vorpal> some will indeed be from gamma rays, probably none from alpha or beta. Indeed, you want two images with same exposure settings to substract dead pixels (which look about the same). And as one comment mentioned you need to know the angle between the CCD plane and the radiation source. Oh and you need to know how the CCD reacts to gamma rays.
16:19:46 <Vorpal> which means you need to calibrate it. At least 3 data points, to check if it is a linear curve
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16:40:34 <Ilari> APNIC: 5x1k+2x/32+/48 to Australia, 5x1k to China, 8x1k to Hong Kong, 5x1k+/32 to India, 2x1k to Japan, 1k to Lao People's Democratic Republic, 1k to Northern Mariana Islands, 6x1k to Malaysia, 1k to Nepal, /32 to French Polynesia, 1k to Philipphines, 2x1k+/48 to Singapore.
16:41:29 <Ilari> IPv6: 4 units allocated, 2 units assigned.
16:52:24 <Vorpal> Ilari, much less than the ipv4 speed
16:53:15 <Ilari> BTW: Global IPv4 allocation rates have fallen from ~2.8 to ~2.3 in few days. :-)
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17:34:10 <Gregor> Gee, apparently I've made substantial enough contributions to Narcissus to be one of the listed contributors.
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18:07:12 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
18:07:16 <HackEgo> 134) <oklopol> you move on the tape and shit
18:07:25 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
18:07:26 <HackEgo> 89) <coppro> hmm... does anyone know a nonsense game designed for the mentally handicapped involving yelling
18:07:30 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
18:07:31 <HackEgo> 103) <Warrigal> So, I'm inside a bottle which is being carried by a robot.
18:07:34 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
18:07:35 <HackEgo> 111) <songhead95> think of all the starving kids in china who don't have rotting sea life to eat
18:07:39 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
18:07:40 <HackEgo> 326) <oklopol> okay see in my head it went, you send from your other number smth like "i'd certainly like to see you in those pink panties again" and she's like "WHAT?!? Sgeo took a pic?!?!?! that FUCKING PIG"
18:08:01 <Phantom_Hoover> ...I need the context for that.
18:17:09 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/projects/trac/esotericlogs/changeset/283%3Ade27052c2698/11.02.27
18:18:53 <Phantom_Hoover> 20:48:42 <Sgeo> She seems to be unaware that my other number is me, despite me telling her several times
18:19:01 <Phantom_Hoover> That level of idiocy is rare.
18:19:23 <Phantom_Hoover> You shouldn't miss your chance to sociopathically mess with her.
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18:28:24 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, I feel weird that I agreed to go out with her (well, eat somewhere. She also suggested a movie, but I never texted back)
18:32:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, I'd say something but I see pikhq summed it up adequately at the time.
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19:13:14 <Gregor> http://github.com/images/error/angry_unicorn.png Apparently this is what github shows you when it's offline.
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19:15:23 <coppro> Gregor: Django
19:15:42 <Gregor> coppro: ... uhhh, OK?
19:16:41 <fizzie> They also have all those different Octocat-flavor error images.
19:17:41 <fizzie> https://github.com/images/error/octocat_sad.gif → https://github.com/images/error/octocat_happy.gif
19:21:04 <fizzie> And http://ctshryock.com/static/images/web-errors/github-404.png
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19:28:30 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57vCBMqnC1Y
19:28:38 <Phantom_Hoover> OK is this the best SMBC Theater skit
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20:00:03 <cheater00> so who's getting a free review copy of LYAH?
20:14:12 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wait, don't you have a theremin which you can't play?
20:15:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yes
20:15:32 <elliott> <Gregor> Gee, apparently I've made substantial enough contributions to Narcissus to be one of the listed contributors.
20:15:38 <elliott> I believe I mentioned this to you at one point.
20:15:52 <Gregor> Oh well :P
20:16:29 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57vCBMqnC1Y
20:16:31 <elliott> "Define... sky"
20:16:33 <elliott> omg it's me
20:17:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Do you think that the means of production should not be privately owned yet support libertarianism?
20:17:32 <elliott> "Is he an idiot?" "For the moment, yes." "Should I strangle him?" "That's a tempting response, but..."
20:19:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Hanny's Voorwerp: best name for an astronomical anomaly?
20:22:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BTW I can confirm that philosophy freshmen are exactly like that video.
20:22:20 <Phantom_Hoover> ...You know one?
20:22:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The moron that I pass off as my Oxfordian friend studies Mathematics and Philosophy, also known as: the stupidest possible degree ever.
20:22:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I knew a guy who did philosophy-religiony-stuff, but he was just Christian.
20:22:57 <elliott> He is about seventy-five percent that.
20:22:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, *best
20:23:23 <elliott> The discrepancy in percentages can be accounted for by noting that philosophy is so stupid, it takes up more than its share of brain space reserved for stupidity.
20:23:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Cognitive science?
20:23:54 <elliott> What
20:24:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it stupid?
20:24:23 <elliott> I would not class cognitive science as philosophy.
20:24:28 <elliott> Because, you know, it's science.
20:24:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I was informed that it involved philosophy by an idiot.
20:24:52 <Phantom_Hoover> WP agrees.
20:24:58 <elliott> Whereas psychology is trying to figure out the answers to questions that nobody knows, with no rules.
20:25:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yeswell.
20:25:17 <elliott> I doubt my dimwit friend is doing much of it.
20:25:24 <elliott> (Note: My reports of his idiocy are exaggerated.)
20:25:46 <Phantom_Hoover> NB: I'm not actually sure to what degree that guy was an idiot.
20:25:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Although he thinks APT Guy is some kind of programming god, so...
20:27:10 <elliott> DEPRESSING FACT OF THE DAY: Some people actually buy the Chinese room argument.
20:27:44 <monqy> :(
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20:28:03 <elliott> Sorry. I should stick to less upsetting things.
20:28:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Isn't the Chinese Room Argument the same as saying functions don't express computation because they can be expressed as infinite tuples?
20:28:25 <Phantom_Hoover> *infinite lists of tuples
20:28:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think if you reduced it to "computable functions", and "a symbolic relation", then yes.
20:28:51 <elliott> The hypothetical program is finite in the example, so the infinite set of tuples is fuzzy.
20:28:58 <elliott> But yeah, it's about as stupid ;)
20:37:59 <Phantom_Hoover> OMG
20:38:07 <elliott> Wat
20:38:19 <Phantom_Hoover> The Periodic Table of Videos has a physics sister series.
20:38:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Must watch even though I'll know half of it.
20:41:08 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> The Periodic Table of Videos has a physics sister series. <-- there are also "backstage science", where he visits "big science" installations in UK. (Particle accelerators and so on)
20:41:20 <Vorpal> also worth watching
20:41:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, I know.
20:42:01 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH physics videos are less interesting than chemistry, due to physics being much better behaved.
20:42:16 <elliott> Chemistry is so boring and practical, though.
20:42:20 <elliott> (Biology ranking as the MOST BORINGEST.)
20:42:27 <Phantom_Hoover> ...no?
20:42:32 <elliott> Compared to physics :D
20:42:50 <elliott> If one could make a video of the amazing cool shit in PURE MATHEMATICS, that would be the best video.
20:42:56 <elliott> Since this has not yet been accomplished, physics will have to do.
20:42:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Several CAs are biologically based, as are Turing reaction-diffusion systems.
20:43:03 <Phantom_Hoover> IT WAS GOOD ENOUGH FOR TURING
20:43:06 <elliott> TOO
20:43:08 <elliott> FUCKING
20:43:09 <elliott> PRACTICAL
20:43:09 <Phantom_Hoover> IT'D GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU
20:43:14 <Phantom_Hoover> *IT'S
20:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I ASK YOU
20:43:17 <monqy> pure mathematics is the only way
20:43:19 <elliott> IT'D GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU
20:43:29 <Phantom_Hoover> WHERE IS THE PRACTICALITY IN SLIME MOLD ROUTE PLANNING
20:43:30 <Phantom_Hoover> WHERE?
20:43:34 <elliott> UM
20:43:45 <elliott> SLIME MOLDS MIGHT LIKE IT I GUESS
20:46:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover HATES MY /MSG
20:46:15 <elliott> S
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20:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Fridge magnets are more complex than most people think.
20:53:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Do I count as worthless for knowing this?
20:53:24 <elliott> Yes.
20:53:35 <elliott> You have to explain how on earth they count as complex now.
20:53:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how so? Aren't they just something glued onto a think flat magnet?
20:54:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, no.
20:54:12 <Phantom_Hoover> They're more magnetic on one side than the other.
20:54:22 <Phantom_Hoover> At least the thin, flat ones.
20:54:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh one of those array-whatever ones?
20:54:35 <Vorpal> I forgot the name for it
20:54:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Halbach.
20:54:44 <Vorpal> yep
20:54:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so they use that?
20:54:51 <Vorpal> neat
20:54:52 <elliott> OTHER THINGS THAT ARE MORE MAGNETIC ONE ONE SIDE THAN THE OTHER: THE EARTH [TROLLFACE]
20:54:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
20:55:01 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, huh?
20:55:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WELL THE NORTH POLE AND THE SOUTH POLE ARE MORE MAGNETIC THAN THE EQUATOR, Q.E.D.?
20:55:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what about the non-thin variants? With a central round magnet thingy
20:55:30 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> I...
20:56:00 <Vorpal> elliott, as far as I know they aren't. The magnetism varies locally however, but not in that way I think.
20:56:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, they presumably just have standard magnets.
20:56:09 <elliott> ITT: "TROLLFACE"
20:56:23 <Phantom_Hoover> What does ITT even mean?
20:56:24 <Vorpal> elliott, ITT?
20:56:28 <elliott> >_<
20:56:29 <olsner> magnetism varies locally yes, especially close to magnets
20:56:36 <elliott> Vorpal is an excellent emulation of a brick wall.
20:56:38 <Vorpal> olsner, :P
20:56:43 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, if it's "in this thread", that doesn't make much sense.
20:56:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IT'S MEME-IFIED OKAY
20:56:59 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal is an excellent emulation of a brick wall. <-- note: <Phantom_Hoover> What does ITT even mean?
20:57:04 <elliott> olsner: warning: magnets cause magnetism
20:57:15 <elliott> Vorpal: THAT PH IS ALSO A BRICK WALL IS A SEPARATE MATTER
20:57:20 <Vorpal> elliott, that is a common myth
20:57:21 <olsner> I read that it means "I'd tap that", but that also makes little sense
20:57:23 <elliott> Also I have been using ITT in here for, like, seventy years.
20:57:31 <elliott> olsner: I'd so tap that trollface.
20:57:54 <Vorpal> elliott, You. Need. SLEEP.
20:58:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, and it's always slightly confused me, but not to the degree I couldn't just use context.
20:58:06 <elliott> Vorpal: No, there is a thing here.
20:58:09 <olsner> elliott: oh yeah, tap it, tap that trollface
20:58:10 <elliott> I have two separate problems.
20:58:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Except that time it didn't make much sense.
20:58:17 <elliott> The problems are lack of sleep, and excess Vorpal.
20:58:23 <elliott> These problems are orthogonal.
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20:58:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I use it vaguely to mean "PLZ TO BE NOTICING:"
20:58:43 <elliott> Or "I AM NOW GOING TO HUMOROUSLY REMIND US OF OUR SUBJECT OF DISCUSSION:"
21:01:38 <Vorpal> <olsner> magnetism varies locally yes, especially close to magnets <-- yes, and some rocks in ground form permanent magnets. Most well known is probably the rock around the ridge in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, where the reversals of the geomagnetic field over geological timescales is famously recorded.
21:01:51 <elliott> you're a fagnetism
21:02:01 <elliott> can you imagine how unintellectual this channel would be without me
21:02:05 <elliott> answer: barely at all
21:02:53 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed, you do add a certain lack of flair, or perhaps a negative flair, when you are sleep deprived.
21:03:12 <elliott> Um excuse me I can be this tasteless whenever.
21:03:17 <elliott> I am just trying to live up to expectations.
21:03:32 <Vorpal> elliott, yes you can, but are you? To a much smaller degree I'd say
21:03:57 <elliott> A priori one cannot say that post hoc ergo propter hoc the diminishing returns would give; yet under quid pro quo one can agglutinate fabula and sujet into vagrancies untold.
21:04:02 <elliott> See? I'm intellectual.
21:04:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I think that is intellectu-babel!
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21:04:48 <elliott> `addquote <elliott> A priori one cannot say that post hoc ergo propter hoc the diminishing returns would give; yet under quid pro quo one can agglutinate fabula and sujet into vagrancies untold. <elliott> See? I'm intellectual.
21:04:49 <elliott> EGO
21:04:53 <HackEgo> 370) <elliott> A priori one cannot say that post hoc ergo propter hoc the diminishing returns would give; yet under quid pro quo one can agglutinate fabula and sujet into vagrancies untold. <elliott> See? I'm intellectual.
21:07:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Scio linguam latinam, canes!
21:07:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, quite the dog latin indeed
21:07:25 <Phantom_Hoover> (Latin has no word for 'bitch'. It's terribly frustrating.)
21:07:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "female dog"?
21:07:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Doesn't distinguish.
21:08:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm?
21:08:14 <Phantom_Hoover> It's canis in both cases.
21:08:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well you could say "female" as a work
21:08:25 <Vorpal> word*
21:08:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no?
21:08:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Too clunky.
21:09:02 <Vorpal> hm okay
21:12:14 <Vorpal> random fact: uplink save games are done by binary serialization. First comes a tag identifying type of object, then comes it's data. Each class Save and a Load function. There are some special functions that seralises a list of such objects and so on
21:12:39 <olsner> Vorpal: OMG THAT IS SO INTERESTING :P
21:12:55 <elliott> i can hardly contain my excitement
21:13:00 <Vorpal> great
21:13:08 <olsner> elliott: I couldn't. At all.
21:13:27 <olsner> Vorpal: random youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtyHC1MaRms
21:13:45 <Vorpal> olsner, cool idea
21:13:47 <Vorpal> I think
21:13:47 <Vorpal> maybe
21:14:34 <olsner> Vorpal: it makes perfect sense if you've watched SG-1
21:14:43 <Vorpal> right, I haven't
21:15:02 <elliott> olsner: haha yessss
21:15:09 <elliott> this is the best worst idea
21:15:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, here http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/48630634d2591
21:16:14 <olsner> Vorpal: a character in the series is played by macgyver, ex post facto hoc propter quid
21:16:31 <elliott> that character being o'neill, who is also known as the alien name "richard dean anderson"
21:16:36 <elliott> which nobody can pronounce
21:16:49 <Vorpal> olsner, ah
21:17:07 <elliott> olsner: do you know the lyrics to the SG-one theme?
21:17:10 <elliott> they're quite emotional.
21:17:15 <olsner> elliott: Woah.
21:17:26 <elliott> wat
21:17:39 <olsner> there are lyrics?
21:17:42 <elliott> yes
21:17:52 <elliott> Stargate, it's a crazy world / With a great big swirl / Step inside / To another woooooorld
21:18:03 <elliott> We're talking Stargaaate / It's a crazy trip / You can go quite far, and you don't need a car / Or even a ship
21:18:14 <elliott> There's Colonel O'Neil and Carter and Daniel and Teal'c
21:18:22 <elliott> LOOK OUT FOR THAT GGGGGGGGGGGGOUOUOUALD
21:18:25 <elliott> I am not even joking.
21:18:42 <elliott> olsner: BEHOLD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqDE8kocoTI
21:19:41 <olsner> nice :)
21:20:08 <elliott> btw you will be unable to hear the theme song again ever without hearing those lyrics
21:20:09 <elliott> you're welcome
21:22:06 <olsner> heh, I've already seen all of SG-1 though
21:22:32 <elliott> olsner plans to never hear the theme song again in his life, ever
21:23:36 <olsner> I'll just edit all my episodes to have the macgyver theme
21:23:43 <elliott> :D
21:23:45 <elliott> best idea
21:26:15 <olsner> the macgyver theme always gives you that "omg this is gonna be awesome" feeling
21:28:04 <cheater00> yep
21:43:40 <Vorpal> olsner, quite
21:50:42 <elliott> ?oleg
21:50:43 <lambdabot> Defined.
21:50:48 <elliott> grr, what is it again
22:06:19 <coppro> ARGH q-thoery
22:06:25 <coppro> *theory
22:07:07 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-analog
22:07:10 <coppro> DIEDIEDIE
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22:08:05 <Phantom_Hoover> news-ham!
22:08:23 <monqy> ;_;
22:10:00 <coppro> ok.. so... it is now 6 pm... fuck q-thoery... study time :(
22:18:37 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
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22:26:39 <Sgeo_> Aww, Uplink doesn't give the source code away free
22:27:10 <Sgeo_> >.>
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22:32:33 <Phantom_Hoover> GUYS
22:32:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I HAVE DECIDED TO WRITE
22:32:59 <Phantom_Hoover> A THRIBBIAN VERSE IN MEMORY OF MINECRAFT'S &e0
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22:51:53 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiotrophic_fungus
22:52:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I, for one, welcome our new fungus overlords.
22:52:08 <Phantom_Hoover> ANYWAY SLEEP FOR REAL
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23:12:19 <olsner> <Phantom_Hoover> ANYWAY SLEEP FOR REAL <-- FEEBLE WEAKLING
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23:38:51 <tswett> Just kidding.
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