←2011-04-10 2011-04-11 2011-04-12→ ↑2011 ↑all
00:05:19 <Gregor> Google Alerts tells me it found my name here: http://twitter.com/cerias/status/55662898420260864
00:05:25 <Gregor> Now, Google Alerts was of course right.
00:05:35 <Gregor> The question is, why did CERIAS feel the need to tweet every bloody poster?
00:05:46 <elliott> Gregor: Because they love you.
00:06:07 <elliott> Also: lol @ having a Google Alert on your own name :P
00:06:14 <Gregor> Narcissism: I has it.
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00:56:21 <zzo38> Like, it should be, if you make a program with WEB or Enhanced CWEB or whatever, you should publish the book and include a DVD in the back cover of the book, for loading the program into your computer.
00:57:34 <elliott> AHW*(R()E*TH(WEHGISGH
00:58:24 <zzo38> What is "AHW*(R()E*TH(WEHGISGH"?
00:59:40 <elliott> Yes.
01:00:09 <oerjan> the ancient gothic god of mismatched brackets
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02:27:20 <elliott> coWHARRGARBL: lol
02:27:30 <coWHARRGARBL> WHARRRGARBL
02:27:40 <elliott> coWHARRGARBL: hello
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02:37:28 * tswett investigates Google Alerts.
02:37:48 <tswett> There's only one result for my name, and it's false.
02:38:50 <ais523> Ivan Hope, or Tanner Swett? or Warrigal?
02:39:03 <tswett> My actual real name.
02:39:07 <tswett> I.e. the latter.
02:39:09 <elliott> Ivan Hope then!
02:39:15 <elliott> The latter is Warrigal :P
02:39:25 <tswett> The latter is the second of two.
02:39:25 <elliott> wow, the Christian Party are Poe's Law exemplified
02:39:28 <elliott> replace the standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt' with the more biblical 'evidence of two or three reliable witnesses' in the criminal justice system.
02:39:36 <elliott> Hmm
02:39:37 <elliott> lat·ter/ˈlatər/Adjective
02:39:38 <elliott> 1. Situated or occurring nearer to the end of something than to the beginning.
02:39:38 <elliott> 2. Belonging to the final stages of something. More »
02:39:42 <elliott> latter
02:39:42 <elliott> relating to or being the second of two items
02:39:43 <elliott> near (or nearer) to the end
02:39:43 <elliott> close (or closer) to the present time
02:39:57 <elliott> Since there were three items, I was interpreting it as the obvious generalisation as the last one
02:39:59 <tswett> I'm using it in the former sense. :P
02:40:08 <elliott> In Wales the party wants to change the Welsh flag, because it views the red dragon as a satanic symbol, they would replace it with the cross of Saint David.[10]
02:40:18 <tswett> I've... actually not used "latter" to mean "last". I think of it as meaning "all but first".
02:40:31 <tswett> So out of three options, I would think of the latter two.
02:40:41 <tswett> Anyway, "Tanner Swett" is what I searched for.
02:40:42 <elliott> the latter N is the last N, I would say
02:41:01 <tswett> Indeed.
02:41:02 <elliott> The options are A, B, C and D; the latter two have the problem that they're gay, the first has the problem that it sucks, and the second has the problem that it's made out of fish.
02:41:55 <elliott> ais523: Have you ever ran a Perl script over GCC's output?
02:42:11 <ais523> elliott: I don't think so
02:42:19 <elliott> It's quite errr, enlightening
02:42:31 <elliott> What I'm saying is, dear god someone tell Gregor he's mad.
02:42:32 <ais523> I've ran a Perl script over makefiles generated during gcc's build process before now, though
02:43:03 * tswett searches for 'john powell' and finds that most of the results are for the wrong word.
02:43:09 <tswett> Why does John Powell have to be so many people?
02:43:47 <tswett> ais523: you too! There must be... at least 523 of you!
02:43:57 <oerjan> Gregor: you're an evil mangler
02:45:47 <ais523> tswett: I think so; there are 10 Alex Smiths more famous than me, imagine how many must be less famous
02:46:32 <oerjan> billions and billions
02:46:49 <zzo38> I do not think there is any need to change the flag, since it already exists. The red dragon can also be seen as a red dragon instead of a satanic symbol; although if there are more than enough people that prefer change the flag to the cross, then maybe they should do so. I myself don't care much as I do not live there.
02:46:58 <tswett> I'm pretty sure that a majority of people on Earth are named Alex Smith.
02:47:33 <zzo38> tswett: What percentage do you expect? I know someone who had the same name as a few people and caused confusion, someone thought he was their boss even though he wasn't.
02:48:08 <elliott> gah, the label has failed
02:48:13 <tswett> I expect... 0.1%.
02:48:16 <elliott> this is so brittle
02:48:24 <tswett> That may be a bit high, come to think of it.
02:48:34 * tswett shrugs.
02:48:51 <elliott> tswett: 6.79 million people are called Alex Smith?!?!?!?!
02:49:00 <elliott> they could found a fucking country
02:49:11 <elliott> "morning Alex"
02:49:12 <elliott> "morning!"
02:49:15 <elliott> "where you off to, Alex?"
02:49:17 <elliott> "ah, just going to work"
02:49:23 <elliott> "Ah, hello, I'm here to see Mr. Smith"
02:49:26 <elliott> "Which one?"
02:49:35 <tswett> Oh, wait. I'm assuming everyone has an Englishy name.
02:49:40 <elliott> :D
02:50:27 <Imk0tter> moon power bitches
02:50:56 <tswett> Okay, let's assume that... 6% of all people have Englishy names.
02:51:07 <tswett> Then the number becomes 0.006%, I believe.
02:51:28 <tswett> Then there are only, like, 400,000 of ais523.
02:52:28 <elliott> Ihope there are not too many ais523. It would Warrigal me a lot and I might even break out into tswett.
02:52:37 <elliott> (Warrigal: SOUNDS LIKE "WORRY")
02:55:58 <olsner> you know, if everyone had the same name you'd have to start giving auxiliary names to tell all the alex smiths apart
02:56:14 <olsner> and eventually you could just drop the alex smith part
02:57:27 <elliott> :D
02:57:38 <elliott> I'm Alex Smith Jacque Loutique.
02:57:44 <elliott> Oh, hi. I'm Alex Smith Azerbajan Remi.
02:57:54 <elliott> (ELLIOTT MAKES UP NAMES)
02:58:25 <olsner> alex is good, because it could be short for both alexander and alexandra
02:58:25 <elliott> tswett: HELLO
02:58:43 <elliott> It could also be short for Alxe-wielding insane hobo.
02:58:43 <olsner> so you could definitely start and maintain a country where everyone has that name
02:58:44 <elliott> The l is silent.
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03:00:21 <elliott> HELLO HELLO HELLO
03:06:27 <oerjan> heo heo heo
03:07:59 <elliott> tswett is actually a elephant. did you know?
03:08:13 <Sgeo__> So, a friend gave me a password to something
03:08:19 <Sgeo__> So I'm logged in as her
03:08:22 <elliott> Kinky.
03:08:30 <elliott> *So,
03:09:22 <elliott> Sgeo__: We're still waiting for the point.
03:09:31 <Sgeo__> No point
03:09:34 <Sgeo__> I just feel weird
03:11:02 <oerjan> we've waited for the point for years
03:11:33 <elliott> Sgeo__: you know who *else* dressed up in the skin of women?
03:11:54 <elliott> <Sgeo> IT PUTS THE LOTION ON ITS SKIN OR ELSE IT GETS THE HOSE AGAIN
03:12:33 <elliott> *RUBS
03:13:56 <elliott> hmm, the sequences are even longer than i remember
03:15:01 <Imk0tter> smell my breakfast bitch
03:15:20 <oerjan> sorry, i don't eat dogs
03:15:42 <elliott> let's see... 9 + let's say 29 (cba to count them all) +
03:15:58 <elliott> 7 +
03:16:02 <elliott> 5 +
03:16:07 <elliott> no wait
03:16:09 <elliott> that's just the most important posts
03:16:23 <elliott> 9 + 29 + 14 +
03:16:42 <elliott> 21 +
03:17:08 <elliott> 14 +
03:17:19 <elliott> 5 +
03:17:30 <elliott> 24 +
03:17:53 <elliott> 28 +
03:17:58 <oerjan> 15 +
03:18:01 <oerjan> 83 +
03:18:02 <elliott> holy fucking fuck how many fucking posts are there
03:18:09 <elliott> oerjan: i'm actually counting blog posts here
03:18:19 * oerjan whistles evilly
03:18:21 <elliott> 18 +
03:18:24 * elliott adds the totals so far
03:18:38 <elliott> 162 +
03:18:48 <elliott> 7 + 11 +
03:18:55 <elliott> 12 +
03:19:07 <olsner> are you counting all the blog posts, or some particular category?
03:19:27 <elliott> 17 + a bit (minor subsequences)
03:19:43 <elliott> olsner: I'm counting the number of blog posts that together constitute Less Wrong's Sequences
03:20:01 <elliott> aka what you get told to go and read the entirety of if you comment on less wrong and someone disagrees :D
03:20:09 <elliott> 6 +
03:20:26 <elliott> current total: 215 + a bit
03:20:49 <elliott> 24 +
03:20:58 <elliott> 9 +
03:21:05 <elliott> 8 +
03:21:16 <elliott> 15 +
03:21:46 <elliott> 38 +
03:22:12 <elliott> 31
03:22:36 <elliott> so in the *main* Sequences series, there's 340 posts. plus dependencies.
03:23:01 <elliott> misc. Yudkowsky sequences:
03:23:14 <elliott> 7 + 11 +
03:23:31 <elliott> evolution posts that i'm too sick of this to count +
03:23:40 <elliott> 13
03:23:43 <elliott> +
03:23:50 <elliott> 14 + more
03:24:00 <elliott> i'm not going to count other people's sequences because this is FUCKING ENOUGH
03:24:19 <elliott> so the total is 385 plus dependencies plus ones that nobody bothered to include in the lists because there's too fucking many
03:24:24 <elliott> olsner: oerjan: any questions
03:24:44 <olsner> only "wat?"
03:25:04 <olsner> what are you talking about?
03:25:21 <elliott> olsner: do you know what Less Wrong is, because if not i can't even hope to give an answer :)
03:25:34 <olsner> nope, I don't
03:25:36 <elliott> oops! i missed one
03:25:50 <elliott> 28
03:25:52 <elliott> whatever
03:26:01 <elliott> olsner: then i'm not even going to bother trying to explain :)
03:26:10 <olsner> okelidokeli
03:26:31 <elliott> *okely dokely, you stupid scannd
03:26:40 <olsner> w/e
03:27:06 <elliott> now, i'm fairly sure oerjan knows, so i'm going to say OVER 385 POSTS FFFFFFFFF
03:27:34 <oerjan> so basically the sequences are longer than the somplete sacred texts of some major religions?
03:27:41 <oerjan> *complete
03:27:41 <elliott> oerjan: :D
03:27:50 <elliott> oerjan: i dunno, the bible is easily 400 blog posts i'm sure :)
03:28:02 <elliott> especially if you include all the rationalisations from way back when to present
03:28:06 <elliott> and err "interpretations"
03:28:07 <oerjan> i guess it depends on post length
03:28:15 <elliott> oerjan: yudkowsky length
03:28:23 <elliott> 'nuff said
03:28:36 <oerjan> um those are long aren't they...
03:28:42 <elliott> quite :P
03:28:51 <elliott> but i mean
03:28:58 <elliott> a page or two of the bible would easily fill a yudkowsky post
03:29:10 <elliott> and the bible is pretty long...
03:30:23 <Sgeo__> Some books of the Bible are rather short
03:32:14 <elliott> There are 1,281 pages in the Bible (Old and New Testament combined), including 66 different "books"...
03:32:16 <elliott> clearly a reliable source
03:32:18 <elliott> anyway it's a long book
03:32:40 <elliott> seriously though.
03:32:42 <elliott> jesus fuck.
03:34:20 <zzo38> The number of pages should depend what print edition you have? The number of different books, though, should remain the same (unless it differs by counting apocrypha/deutrocanonical or not)
03:35:59 <Sgeo__> From a long lineof virgins?
03:36:44 <elliott> wtf, how did this happen
03:36:56 <elliott> oh
03:36:57 <elliott> it erased dead code
03:36:59 <elliott> fucking fuckshit
03:38:29 <elliott> I give up until Gregor mangles labels :P
03:38:31 <elliott> Or I guess I could.
03:38:33 <elliott> But it sounds painful.
03:40:12 <elliott> Wait... he DOES...
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03:43:13 <elliott> you can, just think about two things at once
03:43:17 <elliott> or do you mean physically
03:43:33 <calamari> physically :)
03:43:47 <elliott> meh, who cares about atoms?
03:43:49 <calamari> although maybe you could write code and play videogames at the same time, you're pretty bright :)
03:44:01 <elliott> that's a physical issue, mostly
03:44:03 <elliott> wrt control
03:44:10 <elliott> and the fact that it's hard to look at two things at once
03:44:22 <elliott> also, videogaming tends to be a multi-core kind of thing, it uses all the available system resources
03:46:35 <elliott> calamari: mind you, the human brain's low thread limit is also a physical issue :)
03:46:51 <calamari> yeah my brain is mostly single threaded
03:47:17 <calamari> I'm one of those people whjere if I'm driving, it's dangerous for me to be doing much of anything else
03:47:24 <elliott> i look forward to moving into some leet 128-core brain hardware in the future
03:47:30 <elliott> preferably digital too, to stop all these stupid bits flipping
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04:10:52 <elliott> tswett is no longer a duck. he is now a bear.
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05:04:28 <zzo38> I had an idea of music file format, how well would it work? There are three parts: a MIDI sequence, a synthesizer program, and a conversion table from MIDI note numbers to other numbers (usually the frequency of the notes, but can be used for whatever purpose you want).
05:06:37 <zzo38> The MIDI sequence would consist of four threads, each with four registers: instruction counter, delta counter, loop counter, and auxiliary counter. It can also contain external signal messages, which might be used for singing text or whatever.
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05:10:38 <zzo38> The synthesizer program would have sixteen threads, one for each MIDI channel, with 128 registers each (changeable by the program itself as well as by MIDI control change messages); in addition, there are 128 programs which one is used on which channel is selected by a MIDI program change message.
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05:11:27 <zzo38> Is it good? Is it sensible?
05:17:11 <zzo38> In addition, there can be some special programs that can be selected instead of writing your own; these could include one to just play sample data (as a module tracker program might do).
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06:17:47 <celticwench> hello all :)
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07:54:18 <zzo38> Do you know Giveaway Chess (also called Losing Chess and Suicide Chess)?
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13:54:01 <Vorpal> critical vlc failure. On this DVD it shows I'm at 05:01/00:17
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15:32:54 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.02 (6930944, 0.413 blocsk left): 3x8k+4k+1k+/32+/48 to Australia, 32k+4k to China, 3x4k+1k to Japan, 32k to South Korea, 1k to Philippines, 2k+2x1k+/32 to Singapore, 4x16k to Vietnam, 2k+1k to Vanatu. Slow day.
15:34:18 <Ilari> New depletion estimate: Monday 18th April.
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15:49:07 <elliott> 19:20:02 * SgeoN1 vaguely wonders where his dad is
15:49:07 <elliott> 19:32:18 <SgeoN1> In case anyone was worried or otherwise cares: don't be
15:49:07 <elliott> 19:32:22 <SgeoN1> He's ok
15:49:07 <elliott> THANK GOD
15:49:38 <elliott> oh hi cpressey
15:51:28 <cpressey> hi elliott
15:51:53 <olsner> is/was cpressey zomgmodules?
15:52:25 <cpressey> you can't say ((car (quote (cdr car))) (quote (a b))) in Scheme, but you can say *[*[*car [*cdr *car]] [a b]] in Bizaaro-Pixley!
15:54:05 <elliott> cpressey: erm the scheme equivalent is
15:54:14 <elliott> ((car (quasiquote ((unquote cdr) (unquote car) ...
15:54:17 <elliott> which DOES work :P
15:54:23 <cpressey> or you could use lambdas
15:54:55 <elliott> does bizaaro-pixley have lambdas?
15:55:00 <cpressey> yes
15:55:04 <elliott> I'd just allow any quoted cons to be used as a function
15:55:11 <elliott> and bind its single argument to "x" or something :)
15:55:21 <elliott> or maybe have it like [x *[car *x]]
15:55:27 <elliott> that would be slightly more reasonable
15:55:29 <cpressey> i'm sure you would
15:55:42 <elliott> well picolisp would too :p
16:00:01 <cpressey> thus concludes this morning's session of leaving elliott nonplussed
16:00:05 <cpressey> back later
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16:01:12 <olsner> morning? what a joker, it's just 19h past bedtime
16:01:48 <elliott> :D
16:02:40 <olsner> so I think I'll just have breakfast and go to bed
16:06:59 <Vorpal> fuuuck. Maybe elliott knows the answer to this:
16:07:11 <Vorpal> .IFO detected. Redirecting to dvd://
16:07:12 <Vorpal> There are 2 titles on this DVD.
16:07:12 <Vorpal> There are 1 angles in this DVD title.
16:07:19 <Vorpal> how do I get mplayer to play the second title
16:07:43 <Vorpal> I can't get mplayer to even open the dvd menu, and vlc opens it but I can't find the second title
16:10:39 <olsner> you give it the option for selecting a title, or you press the button for going to the next title
16:10:43 <olsner> obv.
16:11:03 <elliott> olsner: breakfast? Swedes have breakfast?
16:11:09 <elliott> i thought all meal times were Regular Ordinary Swedish Meal Times
16:11:19 <elliott> Vorpal: it's... part of the path
16:11:22 <elliott> dvd://something/something
16:11:23 <elliott> I think
16:11:30 <olsner> yes, breakfast *is* a regular ordinary swedish meal time
16:11:43 <elliott> olsner: CRUSH THE CEREAL
16:11:47 <Vorpal> elliott, hm
16:11:54 <olsner> including the pre-breakfast snack: it's good for you
16:11:56 <elliott> DVD Playback
16:11:56 <elliott> As mentioned above, MPlayer does not support the playback of DVD menus. To play the first title on a DVD, use
16:11:56 <elliott> $ mplayer dvd://
16:11:56 <elliott> If the first title is not the main movie, try playing other titles:
16:11:57 <elliott> $ mplayer dvd://2
16:11:59 <elliott> $ mplayer dvd://3
16:12:01 <elliott> http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/MPlayer
16:12:06 <Vorpal> elliott, but it doesn't even want to accept dvd:// when it is a file on the disc. I have to give it the .IFO file thingy
16:12:07 <elliott> Vorpal: the great juffgy triumphs once again
16:12:20 <elliott> v
16:12:21 <Vorpal> elliott, as in... file on hard disk
16:12:22 <elliott> Vorpal: erm
16:12:33 <elliott> Vorpal: try /home/arvid/poop.ifo/blah
16:12:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't have the dvd handy. I have the ripped stuff
16:12:38 <Vorpal> elliott, hah
16:12:38 <elliott> and stick a dvd:// in front if that doesn't help :)
16:12:54 <elliott> mplayer [dvd|dvdnav]://[title|[start_title]-end_title][/device]
16:13:01 <elliott> Vorpal: dvd://2/home/arvid/blah
16:13:02 <elliott> presumably
16:13:19 <Vorpal> elliott, hm
16:13:23 <elliott> dunno what dvdnav is mind you
16:13:32 <elliott> ah
16:13:34 <elliott> menu support :D
16:13:39 <elliott> used with keypad!
16:13:47 <Vorpal> elliott, dvd://2//home/arvid/blah even
16:13:55 <elliott> but i think my previous address should work
16:14:11 <Vorpal> elliott, nope, it was a relative path :P
16:14:16 <Vorpal> so you need an extra /
16:14:23 <Vorpal> perfectly sensible
16:14:54 <Vorpal> but what the crap. This isn't the stuff I expect. This is just the logo. -_-
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16:18:17 <olsner> Vorpal fails to watch a movie
16:24:06 <Vorpal> olsner, quite. Meh. Will have to find it another way
16:25:08 <elliott> Vorpal: or you could just try title 3, 4
16:25:12 <elliott> or use dvdnav
16:25:26 <olsner> I hear there are places where people set up the movie for you, you just sit there and it rolls
16:25:40 <Vorpal> olsner, I doubt this one would be sent there. It is old.
16:26:03 <Vorpal> olsner, besides I can google for stuff in it at the same time. And no popcorn
16:26:05 <Vorpal> yay
16:26:26 <Vorpal> the sound of crunching popcorn is annoying
16:26:40 <olsner> crunchcrunch
16:26:54 <elliott> it's less annoying if you're the one making it
16:26:57 <elliott> <Vorpal> olsner, I doubt this one would be sent there. It is old.
16:27:01 <elliott> ^ worst excuse for porn ever
16:27:16 <Vorpal> elliott, hahahaha. You must have a very strange taste.
16:27:30 <Vorpal> elliott, to consider Cosmos by Carl Sagan... porn.
16:27:52 <olsner> carl sagan porn? ewww :/
16:27:59 <Vorpal> olsner, my reaction indeed!
16:28:04 <Vorpal> olsner, what can elliott be up to
16:28:11 <elliott> gross
16:28:16 <Vorpal> this is worse than auto-tuning his voice
16:28:21 <elliott> Vorpal is a sicko
16:28:22 <Vorpal> elliott, hey it is you who made that up!
16:28:23 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/reverb-2011-04-11.ogg <-- check out the sweet room reverb generator I made :)
16:28:51 <elliott> Gregor: Are you actually writing a whole music conductor program thing :P
16:29:00 <Gregor> elliott: One step at a time, yes.
16:29:01 <Vorpal> Gregor, why is there so much noise in it?
16:29:12 <Gregor> Vorpal: Because I don't mix very well, I'm working on it :P
16:29:15 <elliott> Gregor: What were you using before
16:29:24 <Vorpal> Gregor, sure you didn't turn on the LP effect?
16:29:29 <Gregor> elliott: fluidsynth, sox, and no conductor program.
16:29:40 <Gregor> variable: Har-dee-har.
16:29:43 <Gregor> Erm
16:29:46 <Gregor> Vorpal: ^^^
16:29:48 <elliott> Yeah, that variable.
16:29:51 <elliott> Always such a joker.
16:30:04 <elliott> Also, I conclude that Vorpal has never heard an LP, ever.
16:30:44 <Vorpal> elliott, actually I had. And yes the noise is somewhat different. This is more like bad cassette recording or such.
16:31:03 <Gregor> Would you jerkfaces focus on the reverb instead of the noise :P
16:31:17 <Vorpal> Gregor, what reverb? Can I hear a before/after to compare?
16:31:27 <elliott> I haven't focussed on the noise
16:31:39 <elliott> My professional opinion is that it sounds like reverb, though
16:31:58 <elliott> Gregor: Now turn the reverb up
16:31:58 <elliott> to
16:32:00 <Vorpal> another non-essential thing to concentrate on: nice music
16:32:00 <elliott> MAXIMUM
16:32:06 <Vorpal> elliott, is that 11?
16:36:26 <Vorpal> *oh* found it. The box says something else than the discs say. Part 2 is on disc 2. Even though nothing else indicate this is the case. Oh well.
16:37:42 <Vorpal> so every disc except the first has two episodes
16:37:43 <Vorpal> okay
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16:41:28 <Vorpal> (I assumed it was the last one that had just one episode, which the box indicated too)
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17:17:22 <cpressey> hm, you can also say ((car (list cdr car)) (quote (a b))) in Scheme, because list evaluates its arguments.
17:18:05 <elliott> indeed
17:18:24 <elliott> (quasiquote (unquote cdr) (unquote car)) = (cons cdr (cons car '())) = (list cdr car)
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17:18:39 <elliott> and bizarro-Pixley [] is quasiquote, and * is unquote
17:18:59 <elliott> with the whole thing being in a sort of implicit (car (quasiquote ...))
17:19:04 <elliott> (for *x at the top level)
17:19:12 <elliott> erm
17:19:21 <elliott> (car (quasiquote (... ())))
17:19:22 <elliott> that is
17:19:44 <cpressey> no, there's no quasiquote in bizaaro-Pixley, just quote and eval
17:20:22 <cpressey> er, with quote being implicit
17:20:30 <elliott> cpressey: what is the result of [*[*+ *2 *2] blah] in a hypothetical bizarro-Pixley with those functions and integers?
17:20:40 <cpressey> elliott: [*[*+ *2 *2] blah]
17:20:55 <elliott> what is the result of *[car [*[*+ *2 *2] blah]]
17:20:56 <cpressey> well, no, malformed, because you have a triple in there :)
17:21:09 <elliott> you know what I mean :)
17:21:15 <elliott> pretend triples exist :p
17:21:38 <cpressey> *[car [*[*+ *2 *2] blah]] => error, because evaling a pair where the lhs is not a function is an error (but i'm considering changing the meaning of evaling a pair, so stay tuned)
17:21:52 <elliott> what is the result of *[*car [*[*+ *2 *2] blah]]
17:22:33 <cpressey> *[*car [*[*+ *2 *2] blah]] => error because *4 is not a function
17:22:53 <elliott> um
17:22:56 <elliott> what is the result of [*car [*[*+ *2 *2] blah]]
17:23:03 <cpressey> hm, wait
17:23:11 <elliott> your semantics, they is incoherent to me
17:23:34 <elliott> i'm fairly sure what you have is [a b] = (quasiquote (a . b)) and *x = (unquote x)...
17:23:35 <cpressey> *[*car [*[*+ *2 *2] blah]] => *4
17:23:44 <elliott> then yes, you have quasiquote and unquote
17:23:46 <cpressey> i think. i don't know, i don't have fricken integers!
17:23:50 <elliott> if [] was quote, then you'd just get
17:23:53 <elliott> *[*+ *2 *2]
17:23:54 <elliott> back
17:24:14 <cpressey> not quite
17:24:21 <cpressey> car takes a pair
17:24:25 <cpressey> and does things to it
17:24:31 <cpressey> it's not a general quasiquote
17:24:41 <elliott> so does car actually get the car and then evaluate that?
17:24:47 <cpressey> yes
17:25:00 <elliott> i'll hold off thinking about this until there's an implementation :-P
17:25:15 <cpressey> there is one, but i'm holding off releasing it until i decide i like it a lot
17:25:51 <elliott> meh, all languages are just inferior versions of thue
17:28:16 <cpressey> i have some ideas about making cons superfluous and replacing lambdas with "pure closures", but they're just ideas right now
17:28:26 <elliott> who needs closurse?
17:28:29 <elliott> *closures?
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17:35:13 <cpressey> elliott: ah lahks lexical bindings
17:35:33 <elliott> cpressey: when john mccarthy made lisp 1.0 did he use lexical bindings NO HE DID NOT
17:35:36 <elliott> are you questioning mccarthy
17:36:39 <cpressey> yes, i am
17:36:57 <cpressey> Mr. McCarthy, isn't it true you have been seen in the presence of several known members of the Communist Party?
17:37:22 <cpressey> oh he isn't here
17:37:22 <cpressey> oops
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17:39:05 <elliott> hi ais523456789
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17:49:34 <Vorpal> I should try to get uplink demo running hm
17:50:01 <Vorpal> ooh nice.... a self-extracting shellscript
17:50:03 <Vorpal> "fun"
17:50:54 <Vorpal> .setup17415: error while loading shared libraries: libgtk-1.2.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
17:50:57 <Vorpal> gnh
17:52:40 <Vorpal> ./lib/uplink.bin.x86: error while loading shared libraries: libjpeg.so.62: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
17:52:41 <Vorpal> gah
17:53:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I think dynamic linking is acceptable when it is for core distro package. But not for "binary blobs"
17:56:47 <Vorpal> okay it kind of starts now
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18:26:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I got uplink running fine. However it is made for lower DPI screens
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18:49:24 <oerjan> <olsner> carl sagan porn? ewww :/
18:49:31 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/spaceporn
18:49:41 <oerjan> i think that's close enough
18:50:02 <Vorpal> weird result from typoing in units: http://sprunge.us/ZcAf <-- what's up with the first one
18:50:08 <Vorpal> m^5 what?
18:50:41 <Vorpal> You have: m to m
18:50:42 <Vorpal> You want:
18:50:42 <Vorpal> Definition: 0.018039068 m^5
18:50:43 <Vorpal> same
18:50:44 <Vorpal> wtf
18:50:50 <Vorpal> *oh*
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18:50:53 <Vorpal> to is an unit
18:50:53 <impomatic> Hi :-)
18:51:07 <Vorpal> which is volume it seems
18:51:08 <oerjan> the knew /r/*Porn subreddits are going to pose an interesting conundrum for net nannies...
18:51:12 <oerjan> *new
18:51:24 <Vorpal> oerjan, there are uh, several?
18:51:25 <Vorpal> wtf
18:51:47 <oerjan> yes, there are 10 listed sister reddits on that page
18:52:39 <oerjan> i think EarthPorn may have been the first with that naming convention
18:52:40 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh, not actually porn as such
18:52:55 <Vorpal> or, humanporn might be
18:53:15 <oerjan> you might think, but no...
18:53:21 * oerjan visited that one before
18:53:21 <Vorpal> oerjan, then what is it?
18:53:31 <elliott> oerjan: erm tv tropes sort of pioneered it no?
18:53:35 <elliott> Scenery Porn and whatnot
18:53:41 <elliott> wel
18:53:41 <oerjan> i think there is also a plain /r/porn, which _is_ what it sounds like
18:53:42 <elliott> *well
18:53:48 <elliott> i think that actually predates tvtropes
18:53:49 <oerjan> elliott: that may be
18:54:06 <elliott> also "gorn" which is an obvious contraction
18:54:06 <Vorpal> oerjan, what is humanporn, I can't figure it out
18:54:22 <oerjan> elliott: however the subreddits started getting created only a month or so ago
18:54:31 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't that like an violence instead of sex?
18:54:33 <elliott> well your mom only started getting created a month or so ago. shut up.
18:54:42 <elliott> oh man /r/earthporn is not going to be good for me
18:54:49 <oerjan> Vorpal: i think the actual subject is something like "awesome people"
18:54:52 <elliott> my list of places to visit will never stop increasing
18:54:56 <Vorpal> oerjan, hah
18:54:58 <oerjan> portraits, really
18:55:05 <elliott> why did you tell me about this oerjan
18:55:13 <elliott> so pretty ;_;
18:55:13 <Vorpal> oh there are descriptions on the side
18:55:14 <Vorpal> right
18:55:17 <Vorpal> "This subreddit is devoted to hi-res artistic portraits of individuals or groups of people. NSFW content is allowed, as long as it is flagged as NSFW."
18:55:24 <elliott> humanporn: "This subreddit is devoted to hi-res artistic portraits of individuals or groups of people. NSFW content is allowed, as long as it is flagged as NSFW. There is a difference between art and smut. All smut will be removed, there are other subreddits for that."
18:55:26 <elliott> go figure
18:56:57 <elliott> oerjan is a very bad person
18:57:22 <elliott> http://imgur.com/s/Ggybq what
18:57:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I'd guess a saltlake at dawn or dusk
18:58:07 <oerjan> oh wait spaceporn is actually older than earthporn
18:58:13 <elliott> it's absolutely surreal
18:58:35 <Vorpal> elliott, based on the title: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_Lake
18:58:43 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_Lake it's this
18:58:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I beat you to that
18:58:54 <elliott> why is everywhere so pretty ;;;___;;;
18:59:01 <Vorpal> elliott, salt lake indeed as I said
18:59:16 <elliott> whyyy
19:00:20 <oerjan> hm wasn't mono lake that place they found those arsenic bacteria
19:00:25 <oerjan> *where
19:00:46 <Zwaarddijk> zyes
19:01:03 <elliott> oerjan: you have to buy my plane tickets for me
19:01:19 <oerjan> :D
19:01:41 <elliott> oerjan: IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT
19:02:15 <Vorpal> elliott, speaking of tvtropes above. Their article on Dwarf Fortress is quite amusing
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19:07:03 <oerjan> <Vorpal> olsner, I doubt this one would be sent there. It is old.
19:07:24 <oerjan> there _are_ film clubs and the like that show old films. at least there is one in trondheim.
19:07:59 <oerjan> although wasn't cosmos a tv series rather than a movie
19:08:51 <oerjan> <Vorpal> this is worse than auto-tuning his voice
19:09:31 * oerjan now has the vague image of adjusting the visuals to be pornographic, while keeping the soundtrack as usual
19:10:12 <Vorpal> oerjan, you have a dirty mind :
19:10:21 <Vorpal> <oerjan> although wasn't cosmos a tv series rather than a movie <-- indeed
19:10:50 <Vorpal> also: s/ :$//
19:11:59 <elliott> :D
19:12:22 <elliott> i wonder if carl sagan and david attenborough ever made anything together
19:12:23 <elliott> wait
19:12:27 <elliott> the world still exists
19:12:36 * elliott checks Has The Earth Exploded From Awesomeness Yet?
19:12:40 <elliott> nope, guess they never did
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19:13:28 <Vorpal> elliott, argh. 5 hours to go for next disc...
19:13:39 <Vorpal> (yes the mail delivers in the night)
19:15:39 <oerjan> elliott: it would appear they were at least autotuned into the same piece http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_of_Science#The_Unbroken_Thread
19:16:16 <elliott> THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY MESS WITH
19:16:26 <elliott> i've never actually listened to any of the post-glorious-dawn ones PROBABLY THEY SOLD OUT
19:17:11 <elliott> Vorpal: what's the gcc stuff for likely/unlikely branches?
19:18:45 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, check manual, I don't remember it offhand. Something like __builtin_gcc_expect iirc
19:18:57 <Vorpal> elliott, basically likely/unlikely are kernel macros
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19:19:37 <elliott> I know that much
19:19:39 <elliott> it was the name i forgot
19:19:51 <elliott> lol, it lectures me to profile
19:19:57 <elliott> I'M NOT PROFILING FOR YOU
19:20:21 <elliott> i suppose i can imagine a universe where bignum+bignum arithmetic is more common than bignum+fixnum or fixnum+fixnum, but it's sure as hell not this one
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19:21:18 <Vorpal> elliott, profile to see if it actually helps
19:21:29 <oerjan> <elliott> meh, all languages are just inferior versions of thue
19:21:49 <oerjan> i actually find /// / Itflabtijtslwi more elegant than thue
19:22:02 <Vorpal> oerjan, "Itflabtijtslwi"?
19:22:16 <Vorpal> what a name
19:22:27 <oerjan> for one thing the latter can do arbitrary stdin/stdout IO
19:23:06 <oerjan> Vorpal: ignore this fancy little acronym, basically this is just that slashes language with input
19:23:14 <Vorpal> oerjan, haha
19:24:34 * oerjan wasn't the one to name it though
19:24:51 <oerjan> although i did write the slightly nontrivial programs
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19:48:44 <Vorpal> oerjan, so is it BF-IO complete?
19:48:49 <Vorpal> oerjan, or is it more limited?
19:50:47 <oerjan> assuming that means it can read and write any byte, then i believe so (although it needs a large table of characters if it is to recognize all of them, similarly to unlambda)
19:52:19 <oerjan> as in, i see no fundamental obstacles, given that i could write rot13 in it
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19:54:17 <Vorpal> oerjan, ah
19:54:27 <Vorpal> oerjan, what about the zero byte?
19:55:57 <oerjan> shouldn't be a problem. it has a separate convention for EOF distinct from any character (in fact that _was_ my decision to clarify the spec when i wrote the perl implementation)
19:56:50 <oerjan> well unless there is some bug related to how perl deals with NULs, but i would consider that a flaw in the implementation, not the language
19:57:42 <oerjan> i don't know exactly how perl does that stuff
19:59:06 <oerjan> this means that it should be _more_ IO-complete than an 8-bit BF implementation which cannot avoid confusing some characters with EOF
20:04:39 <Vorpal> hah
20:04:51 <Vorpal> oerjan, how do you tell them apart in the source code?
20:06:24 <oerjan> tell what apart?
20:08:31 <oerjan> the GG command reads a char if available, and substitutes it for a chosen string. eof substitutes the empty string instead.
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20:11:34 <zzo38> If it was up to me, I would have the C pointers with NULL work like: An implicit cast from a constant 0 is NULL. An implicit cast from any other number, or a non-constant 0, is a compile error. An explicit cast from any number to a pointer is the corresponding address, so 0 might not necessarily be NULL.
20:12:37 <zzo38> An implicit cast from a pointer to boolean is true if and only if it is not NULL. An implicit cast from pointer to number is a compiler error, but an explicit cast works and 0 will not necessarily be NULL.
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20:20:30 <Vorpal> zzo38, how do you determine at compile time if something is an "non-constant 0" as opposed to for example, a number in the range 3-4? "An implicit cast from any other number, or a non-constant 0, is a compile error."
20:21:25 <Vorpal> of course it doesn't really matter for this
20:21:48 <zzo38> If the compiler sees it a constant expression or not, I mean, an expression without variable/function call
20:21:55 <Vorpal> right
20:47:15 <Vorpal> night
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20:49:20 <elliott> 19:21:18: <Vorpal> elliott, profile to see if it actually helps
20:49:22 <elliott> difficult
20:49:24 <elliott> it's not an application
20:49:44 <Vorpal> elliott, what was it then?
20:49:44 <elliott> (in this case, gcc is being used to generate instruction implementations for a JIT)
20:49:49 <Vorpal> elliott, ah
20:49:54 <elliott> 19:21:49: <oerjan> i actually find /// / Itflabtijtslwi more elegant than thue
20:49:56 <elliott> oerjan: that's true.
20:50:00 <Vorpal> elliott, you could do test cases with/without it maybe
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20:50:20 <elliott> 19:50:47: <oerjan> assuming that means it can read and write any byte, then i believe so (although it needs a large table of characters if it is to recognize all of them, similarly to unlambda)
20:50:27 <elliott> oerjan: it's more like that + arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point
20:50:28 <elliott> e.g. the
20:50:37 <elliott> B... = bf program with no output
20:50:38 <oerjan> yeah yeah
20:50:38 <elliott> P... = print this
20:50:46 <elliott> language has both input and output of any byte, but, right :)
20:51:27 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, this code path appears for every arithmetic op
20:51:33 <elliott> Vorpal: and fixnums are overwhelmingly the common case
20:51:41 <Vorpal> elliott, I see
20:52:05 <Vorpal> elliott, not sure if you seen the df thread about how to best set up a mermaid farm? Because their bones are valuable when crafting things of them.
20:52:13 <Vorpal> only in dwarf fortress!
20:52:30 <elliott> Vorpal: no, i don't read that forum
20:52:49 <Vorpal> elliott, sometimes it can be fun, or horrible: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=25967.0
20:52:54 <elliott> Vorpal: i could do test cases, but so far there are no language implementations on top of this host
20:53:09 <Vorpal> elliott, is it for that language for PH's game?
20:53:31 <elliott> Vorpal: no
20:53:34 <elliott> Vorpal: it's Fythe
20:53:44 <Vorpal> elliott, mhm, which one is that?
20:53:48 <elliott> anyway, strictly, gcc doesn't generate the implementations
20:53:53 <elliott> it generates a partial implementation
20:53:57 <elliott> which is then cleaned up with a perl script
20:54:02 <elliott> and a patch is kept to it
20:54:05 <Vorpal> elliott, depends on a specific gcc version then?
20:54:06 <elliott> to fill in things like function prologuee
20:54:10 <elliott> /epilogue
20:54:12 <elliott> *prologue
20:54:16 <elliott> and "jump to here if not overflow"
20:54:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Fythe is Gregor's general-purpose language implementation VM/parser system
20:54:57 <elliott> the basis of (the as of yet unimplemented) Plof 4
20:55:05 <elliott> I don't think it depends on a specific gcc version
20:55:09 <elliott> most of the patches are pretty general
20:55:27 <elliott> probably the overflow stuff will have to be redone, but the prologue/epilogue things should be all right
20:55:31 <elliott> since they're just replacing a string :)
20:55:38 <Vorpal> ah
20:56:07 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you doing evil mangler sort of stuff instead of using llvm or something
20:56:35 <elliott> Vorpal: because LLVM doesn't fit Plof's needs?
20:56:46 <Vorpal> elliott, in what ways=
20:56:48 <Vorpal> s/=/?/
20:56:50 <elliott> Fythe is suited for dynamic languages, as well as static onse
20:56:51 <elliott> *ones
20:56:58 <elliott> and has a built-in extensible packrat parser engine
20:57:02 <Vorpal> hm
20:57:04 <elliott> which forms the basis of Plof's language extension features
20:57:07 <elliott> and indeed Plof's implementation itself
20:57:15 <elliott> you can implement a language in Fythe without writing any C code, basically
20:57:32 <elliott> Vorpal: the evil mangler stuff is Gregor's idea, it's just how the opcode impls are generated
20:57:45 <elliott> you could hand-code them if you wanted, but if that route was taken, there probably wouldn't already be an arm backend :P
20:58:04 <Vorpal> hah
20:58:13 <elliott> Vorpal: also, it has an optimisation engine type of thing built in
20:58:19 <elliott> or, really, arbitrary numbers of passes
20:58:30 <elliott> and all this is done at runtime
20:58:53 <elliott> all I'm doing is changing the integer implementation to use bignums on overflow and the like
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21:00:24 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if I could free up a register by adding the two booleans
21:00:27 <elliott> and conditioning on that
21:00:34 <elliott> oh wait, that wouldn't let me distinguish right only vs. left only bignum
21:00:55 <oerjan> mangle mangle twist and tangle
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21:03:18 <elliott> heyy, gcc has AWESOME builtins
21:03:47 <oerjan> gc spurn and pointer dangle
21:04:01 <elliott> gah
21:04:05 <elliott> the builtin that looks cool isn't in 4.4
21:04:58 <elliott> specifically __builtin_unreachable
21:05:06 <elliott> i think that would reduce the mangling a little bit
21:05:17 <elliott> hm the null pointer derefs should become __builtin_trap() instead maybe
21:08:44 <elliott> Vorpal: fun thing the mangler has to do: rename all labels
21:09:00 <elliott> otherwise gcc generates them terribly (seemingly pseudo-randomly)
21:09:01 <elliott> and the diff breaks
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21:14:47 <cheater-> hello sweethearts
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21:39:41 <Gregor> Vorpal: http://codu.org/tmp/reverb-2011-04-11.tar <-- this tar includes no reverb, simple reverb, pan+reverb, and my full room reverb system.
21:40:03 <Vorpal> ah
21:40:15 <Vorpal> will check tomorrow, have to sleep now. Will wget it
21:40:18 <Gregor> Simple reverb and full room reverb are actually the most similar, but simple reverb gives no sense of space, whereas pan+reverb gives a distorted, actually kind of disturbing sense of space.
21:41:54 <elliott> Pork.
21:42:52 <oerjan> this sentence no reverb
21:44:01 <elliott> ,mnbgyuio
21:45:30 * oerjan wonders how you would converse if you could only use neighboring keys consecutively
21:45:40 <oerjan> badly, i assume
21:47:44 <oerjan> redsassertfreesaws
21:48:11 <Zwaarddijk> hm, I just had two ideas for a programming language
21:48:18 <Zwaarddijk> these aren't actually esoteric ideas
21:48:22 <Zwaarddijk> but ones that will make programmers hate me!
21:49:08 <Zwaarddijk> 1) parentheses and other similar things aren't required to be closed or opened, in fact, they are just operators (this will annoy people
21:49:22 <Zwaarddijk> 2) white-space affects precedence
21:49:36 <oerjan> the latter has been done
21:49:49 <Zwaarddijk> oh, cool
21:50:01 <oerjan> i don't quite recall where
21:50:13 <Zwaarddijk> oh, would've been nice to look up
21:50:27 <oerjan> it was discussed here, anyway
21:50:34 <elliott> * oerjan wonders how you would converse if you could only use neighboring keys consecutively
21:51:05 <elliott> hyujk, mjuuik, ,li
21:51:07 <elliott> i give up
21:51:29 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: even merd did the latter :)
21:51:30 <Zwaarddijk> in one channel I'm on
21:51:32 <Ilari> Hmm... Esolang where the program is a general digraph. :-)
21:51:34 <elliott> merd.sf.net
21:51:46 <Zwaarddijk> we once communicated in three-letter abbreviations
21:51:48 <oerjan> elliott: the left side seemed to have more promise. although i ignored the return key...
21:51:49 <Zwaarddijk> and such
21:51:58 <Zwaarddijk> the idea was to look sort of pseudo-assemblerlike
21:52:44 <elliott> werdfeedsaweddedsasser
21:52:45 <oerjan> Zwaarddijk: tla huh
21:53:03 <Zwaarddijk> oerjan: of course we did it all-caps
21:53:13 <oerjan> elliott: fe?
21:53:19 <Ilari> Bonus points for not associating any data with vertices or edges and having any digraph be valid program.
21:53:26 <elliott> oerjan: werd-feeds-a-wedded-sasser
21:53:38 <elliott> i had no o, dammit
21:53:42 <oerjan> elliott: no i mean f does not touch e
21:53:44 <elliott> Ilari: graphica?
21:53:49 <elliott> oerjan: sure it does, diagonally
21:53:57 <elliott> gimme a break :D
21:54:16 <oerjan> well if your keyboard is like a chessboard pattern, maybe
21:54:38 <elliott> fredsaswedded... bah
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21:56:31 <Ilari> Of course, that would involve digraph homomorphism problem.
21:57:29 <Ilari> And also likely vertex equivalence.
21:58:54 <oerjan> is that NP-complete?
21:59:53 <Ilari> Graph homomorphism isn't known to be in P nor in NPC. Don't know if digraphs change things.
22:00:10 <Ilari> Don't know about vertex equivalence.
22:00:20 <oklopol> who's vertex eq
22:00:36 <oerjan> i think you mean isomorphism for the "not known"?
22:00:57 <oerjan> or hm
22:00:58 <elliott> graph homosexuality
22:01:31 <Ilari> Yeah, isomorphic.
22:01:49 <oklopol> oerjan: erm, homomorphism has it as a subcase
22:02:02 <oklopol> when you have the same amount of edges and vertices
22:02:15 <oklopol> oh
22:02:23 <oklopol> but it might be known to be np-complete
22:02:26 <oklopol> i just don't know it
22:02:35 <oerjan> yes, homomorphism is NPC
22:02:45 <oklopol> subgraph is easily seen to be np-complete so prolly okay
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22:03:21 <oklopol> what's the proof?
22:03:31 <oerjan> i just saw it claimed on wp
22:03:36 <oklopol> oh okay
22:03:48 <oklopol> well easy to believe, maybe i'll think about it later
22:03:50 <oerjan> however actually isomorphism is _not_ a subcase of homomorphism
22:03:56 <oerjan> at least not obviously
22:04:05 <oerjan> because the map is not required to be injective
22:04:22 <oklopol> "<oklopol> when you have the same amount of edges and vertices"?
22:04:29 <oerjan> (for homomorphism)
22:04:34 <oerjan> doesn't help
22:04:45 <oklopol> huh.
22:04:58 <oklopol> maybe i don't know what a function is then
22:05:17 <oerjan> e.g. you have a homomorphism from C4 to itself which collapses two opposing vertices
22:05:36 <oklopol> err, that's not surjective?
22:05:51 <oerjan> homomorphisms are not required to be surjective either
22:05:59 <oklopol> okay so i guess the problem is me assuming it's assumed surjective
22:06:12 <oklopol> because that makes more sense
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22:07:39 <Ilari> Subgraph isomorphism is NP-Complete. But is isomorphism with full graphs?
22:07:41 <oklopol> or, alternatively, it is my opinion that the epimorphism problem is more natural than the homomorphism problem
22:07:52 <oklopol> Ilari: that's the unknown thing
22:07:54 <oerjan> Ilari: that is the unknown question
22:08:50 <oklopol> oerjan: so, for the homomorphism problem, i don't really see how it can be NPC, since you can just map everything to a single vertex?
22:09:12 <oklopol> or hmm
22:09:18 <oerjan> oklopol: no, you cannot map vertices that have edges between them to the same
22:09:29 <oklopol> oh right yeah
22:09:39 <oklopol> then it should work
22:09:59 <oerjan> i think maybe it suffices to consider the "from" graph being complete, for which homomorphism and subgraph isomorphism become the same, and also the same as the maximal clique problem?
22:10:30 <oerjan> (the same because injectivity is then automatic)
22:11:08 <Ilari> Vertex equivalence is equivalence relation: Vertex is equivalent to itself, it is symmetric relation and if x is equivalent to y, and y is equivalent to z, then x is equivalent to z.
22:11:10 <oklopol> which one's the from graph
22:11:30 <cheater-> HOLY MOTHER OF GOD.
22:11:44 <oklopol> Ilari: thank you for this
22:11:45 <Ilari> Anyway, all C_n and K_n graphs have all vertices equivaent. K_n,m graphs (biparite) have two sets of equivalent vertices.
22:12:09 <oklopol> what
22:12:41 <oklopol> Ilari: did god give you The Equivalence Relation?
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22:13:26 <oklopol> "from" graph as in the one from which you try to find stuff? that can't be complete
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22:13:45 <oerjan> oklopol: "from" graph as the domain of the homomorphism function
22:14:31 <oklopol> so homomorphism from K_n to some graph G actually marks a K_n in G
22:14:35 <oerjan> the map goes from the set of vertices of one graph to the set of vertices of another
22:14:46 <oerjan> yes
22:14:47 <oklopol> then we
22:14:51 <oklopol> 're done
22:14:55 <oklopol> but let me try to see why.
22:15:15 <oerjan> well as i said it's the maximal clique problem, no?
22:15:24 <oklopol> well yes
22:15:28 <oklopol> i guess we can just take that as a given
22:15:37 <oklopol> that that's NPC
22:15:46 <oklopol> because everyone knows that
22:15:56 * oklopol continues thinking anyway
22:17:09 <oerjan> "Subgraph isomorphism is a generalization of both the maximum clique problem and the problem of testing whether a graph contains a Hamiltonian cycle, and is therefore NP-complete."
22:17:30 <oklopol> sure
22:17:54 <oerjan> the hamiltonian thing doesn't look like it would transfer to homomorphisms though
22:18:11 <oerjan> (cycles can easily have vertices identified)
22:19:00 <oklopol> well you could add new vertices inside the edges to make them directed and unique for the beginning vertex?
22:19:09 <oklopol> well
22:19:12 <oklopol> that doesn't work at all
22:19:17 <oklopol> but otherwise?
22:19:27 * oklopol considers sleeping
22:20:40 <oerjan> the clique problem was one of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karp%27s_21_NP-complete_problems
22:21:33 <elliott> ur mom is a np
22:24:27 <Ilari> Ah, of course vertex equivalence and graph isomorphism are equally hard. :-)
22:24:47 <oklopol> what's vertex equivalence?
22:25:26 <oerjan> Ilari: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NP-complete_problems#Iso-_and_other_morphisms lists somthing called digraph D-morphism, but the link leads nowhere
22:26:42 <oerjan> *something
22:27:24 * oerjan guesses that vertex equivalence means there's an isomorphism of the graph to itself mapping one vertex to the other
22:28:04 <oklopol> then i don't see the equally hard claim
22:28:50 <oklopol> then vertex eq can be reduced to graph isomorphism by marking the vertex with some weird thingie i think
22:29:15 <oerjan> probably
22:29:16 <oklopol> but the other direction i don't see in the vaguest
22:29:35 <oerjan> oh!
22:30:01 <oklopol> !
22:30:26 <oerjan> make a graph that is the disjoint union of the two, and see if there is a vertex equivalence between vertices from different original graphs
22:30:33 <oklopol> ah
22:30:37 <oklopol> good one
22:30:50 <oklopol> so yeah of course
22:31:21 <oklopol> but i think i solved maximum clique
22:31:43 <oerjan> proving it NP-complete?
22:31:50 <oklopol> yes
22:32:17 <oklopol> take 3sat, and for each (x v y v z) you take three vertices which are not connected, then connect every pair x, y everywhere else, unless x = not y
22:32:28 <oerjan> hm i vaguely recall thinking about that one some months ago
22:32:30 <oklopol> and require one vertex for all
22:32:43 <oklopol> so find K_n where n is the number of clauses
22:33:14 <oklopol> must choose exactly one from all, and it's then K_n unless you made a contradicting choice in two clauses
22:33:42 <oerjan> hm
22:33:49 <oklopol> and yes, i know that was very unclear
22:34:46 <oklopol> but let's see if i know what i mean
22:35:59 <oklopol> if you find some K_n, then you chose one from each clause, so you can just set those to true, then it doesn't matter what you do with other vars, because everything's satisfied
22:36:18 <oklopol> and you can set those to true because there can't be both x and not x chosen from two clauses
22:36:42 <oklopol> if you can satisfy, then just choose one from each clause, you won't get x and not x because, well, x has some value
22:37:05 * oklopol has never felt this formally challenged
22:37:28 <oklopol> are u grokking meh :(
22:38:50 <oerjan> i vaguely recall how i did it, and i think you have a flaw there. you need to also have a vertex for each variable x and each not x, to ensure all settings are globally consistent
22:39:15 <oerjan> but otherwise, that's the idea
22:39:27 <oklopol> i don't think you need a vertex for each variable
22:39:52 <oerjan> yes you do, because you can have a set of clauses that restrict a variable without doing so "locally"
22:40:14 <oklopol> but a K_n marks a true variable in every clause
22:40:29 <oerjan> hm maybe
22:40:35 <oklopol> so you get a satisfying valuation
22:40:37 <oklopol> and conversely
22:40:54 <oklopol> but yeah this might not be the most illustrative way, i just didn't see how it's done with variable vertices
22:41:17 <oklopol> so you choose the correct value of each variable into the K_n, as vertices?
22:41:19 <oklopol> then what?
22:41:43 <oklopol> then you choose that value also in those thingies i contructed i guess
22:41:54 <oklopol> and stuff happens
22:42:06 <oklopol> well anyhow it's kinda obvious, i should go to sleep
22:46:01 <oerjan> hm i think i understand how your method works now
22:46:22 <oklopol> thank god
22:46:39 <oklopol> because i'm like should i try to actually do it or not
22:46:42 <oklopol> but now i can like not
22:46:46 <oerjan> heh
22:47:13 <oklopol> i slept 14 hours last night but for some reason i can't seem to do it now
22:47:59 <oklopol> have you seen the proof for hamiltonian path np-complete?
22:48:37 <oklopol> i'm actually going to read that tomorrow, it's interesting how often the stuff i do at random at uni pops up here
22:48:43 <oerjan> i cannot recall that
22:48:48 <oklopol> usually complexity theory but other stuff too i think
22:48:57 <oklopol> (i don't usually do ct)
22:49:04 <oklopol> (i mean, read ct)
22:49:09 <oklopol> (i don't *do* ct)
22:49:12 <oklopol> (no one does ct)
22:49:43 <oklopol> well *directed* hamiltonian is easy
22:49:48 <oerjan> i'd assume the people over at godel's letter do...
22:50:21 <oerjan> the karp 21 page claimed undirected hamiltonian was proved by reducing it to directed
22:50:30 <oklopol> you have a chain from right to left and left to right for each variable, and put these under each other, have the hamiltonian cycle go through each, in one of the two directions
22:50:36 <oklopol> then, for each clause
22:50:46 <oklopol> you have a vertex, and you can visit it iff you're going in the right direction
22:51:02 <oklopol> in one of its variables
22:51:38 <oklopol> that one is clear when you draw a picture, but i doubt it's gettable from that :D
22:54:34 <oklopol> so basically you have a start vertex up high, and two paths down from it, then between those paths, between their nth vertices, you have paths in both directions, one representing "nth variable true", one representing "nth variable false". you also have edges for changing path from left side to right as you go down
22:55:26 <oklopol> then, somewhere in the middle of say x=false path, you have one of the edges optionally going through a vertex that signifies that a certain clause disjuncting (not x) is true
22:55:49 <oklopol> that should be pretty much it
22:56:36 * oerjan has brain mush again
22:56:49 <elliott> brain mushmshmsuhmsuhsmhshmsuhmsuhmsmhshsmhsmhsmhsmhsmhmshmshmshmsmhsmhsmhsmhsnhsmhsmh
22:57:08 <oklopol> i'll be happy to clarify if you feel like it
22:57:24 <oklopol> but how the fuck do you reduce directed to undirected....
22:57:41 <oklopol> wait what
22:57:51 <oklopol> undirected reduced to directed? why would you do that :D
22:58:13 <oklopol> just have edges both ways..
22:58:14 <oerjan> er i guess the other way
22:58:29 <oklopol> okay
22:59:33 <oerjan> i meant "reduced" as reducing NP-completeness of one to the NP-completeness of the other, which is of course the exact opposite direction of the actual problem reduction
22:59:33 <oklopol> yeah so about the undirected case: i have no idea
22:59:58 <oklopol> yeah
23:00:06 <oklopol> apology accepted
23:00:09 <oklopol> everyone makes mistakes
23:00:22 <oerjan> LET'S NOT OVERDO THIS
23:00:22 <oklopol> especially the ones that are stuppid
23:00:23 <oklopol> hahahaha
23:00:26 <oklopol> hhahahahaahaa
23:00:57 <oklopol> i have to wake up in 4 hours if i want to be at uni before the cleaning ppl :(
23:01:15 <oklopol> the girl that cleans our office is the cutest little thingie
23:02:17 <oklopol> also that was a completely orthogonal note
23:02:26 <oklopol> i'm not even going to the office
23:03:23 <oklopol> anyhow let's see how this goes after proving these mindnumbing trivialities ->
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23:48:44 <elliott> Bayesians caught smuggling
23:48:44 <elliott> priors into Rotterdam harbor
23:48:44 <elliott> Rogier A. Kievit
23:48:44 <elliott> Amsterdam, 2-2-2011. A group of
23:48:46 <elliott> international Bayesians was arrested today in
23:48:48 <elliott> the Rotterdam harbor. According to Dutch
23:48:50 <elliott> customs, they were attempting to smuggle over
23:48:52 <elliott> 1.5 million priors into the country, hidden
23:48:54 <elliott> between electronic equipment. The arrest
23:48:56 <elliott> represents the largest capture of priors in history.
23:48:58 <elliott> ‘This is our biggest catch yet. Uniform priors, Gaussian priors, Dirichlet priors, even
23:49:00 <elliott> informative priors, it’s all here,” says customs officers Benjamin Roosken,
23:49:02 <elliott> responsible for the arrest. “There are priors for memory experiments, intelligence
23:49:04 <elliott> tests, flanker tasks, meta-analyses, political preference, everything! God only knows
23:49:06 <elliott> what would have happened if this had gotten through. We’re pretty lucky to catch
23:49:08 <elliott> them too. The chance of being in the right place, given the right time, if you take into
23:49:10 <elliott> account the number of arrests, divided by the number of successful arrests every year,
23:49:14 <elliott> it’s pretty slim. We’re very glad indeed. ”
23:49:16 <elliott> ugh, that pasted terribly
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