←2011-04-07 2011-04-08 2011-04-09→ ↑2011 ↑all
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01:42:06 <elliott> x
01:50:30 <Sgeo_> elliott's learning the alphabet! How cute!
01:58:54 <ais523> o
01:59:20 <elliott> r
02:05:00 <quintopia> punching trees gives him wood
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02:21:20 <elliott> hi marchdown
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02:39:56 <elliott> -MemoServ- [...]'s inbox is full
02:39:59 <elliott> Well that's a new one.
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03:10:01 <Sgeo_> Just read a blog post called "Pharo, the death kneel of Squeak?"
03:10:11 <Sgeo_> And misread it as "Pharo, the death kneel of Smalltalk?"
03:10:19 <Sgeo_> (This is on a Cincom blog, so)
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05:03:04 <Sgeo_> Ah, crud, found a bug in some Pharo documentation
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05:06:56 <variable> Sgeo_: http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/mls/blogView?entry=3429226129 ?
05:07:18 <Sgeo_> yeah
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07:15:41 <oklopol> "<cpressey> I am becoming more and more convinced that programming (heavily, exclusively) in Python changes the way you think for the worse." <<< python hasn't changed me at all, i think
07:17:00 <oklopol> "<cpressey> idea: language where all expressions have side effects. an integer expression is in fact of the form kB where B is a block of code (possibly empty) that is executed k times." <<< this is how you implement integers in lc, kinda, except for the side-effects part :D
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08:13:50 <oerjan> <elliott> -MemoServ- [...]'s inbox is full
08:14:04 <oerjan> i told you, its notice is too subtle...
08:14:56 <oerjan> well i suppose that might not be the cause there
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09:58:52 <zzo38> In a VLQ stream could you use 0x80 as a terminator? (That is, assuming you are not in the middle of a number)
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13:01:39 <Phantom_Hoover> [["Jake liked his women the way he liked his kiwi fruit: sweet yet tart, firm-fleshed yet yielding to the touch, and covered with short brown fuzzy hair."]]
13:01:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, a succinct Bulwer-Lytton.
13:06:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I think I just saw an Evony ad without any breasts at all.
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13:31:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Today seems to be a day for the impossible.
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13:35:17 <Phantom_Hoover> <Sgeo> I finally succeeded at something!
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13:35:22 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Why must the Bulwer-Lytton web site be the most abysmally 1993 web site ever?
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13:35:37 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gregor> I realised $800 is absurd for a domain name!
13:35:46 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> I found something I don't hate!
13:35:54 <Phantom_Hoover> <fizzie> I'm very very angry!
13:36:19 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> Perhaps I take myself a bit too seriously!
13:36:22 <Gregor> Sorry, $800 is not absurd for a domain name if it's libc.so, you're not gettin' that out of me :P
13:37:05 <Phantom_Hoover> <Ilari> IPv4 exhaustion? I haven't really been following it...
13:38:05 <Phantom_Hoover> QUICK I NEED MORE
13:39:24 <Gregor> <Phantom_Hoover> Today I shall make enough of an impression on someone that they could identify me personality and parody it.
13:39:26 <Gregor> OHHHHHHH
13:39:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, :D
13:40:40 <Phantom_Hoover> <ais523> Hmm, I forgot to pay for something. Ah, well, it's not worth fretting over.
13:42:18 <fizzie> <zzo38> [A completely normal comment.]
13:43:26 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> I found something I don't hate! <-- that actually happens, but then after looking at it for five more minutes he realizes he did in fact hate it.
13:44:19 <Phantom_Hoover> <{aloril, bsmntbombdood, dbc, enki-[quit], iamcal, jcp, jix, lifthrasiir, mtve, mycroftiv, pingveno, rodgort, sebbu, sftp, shachaf, SimonRC, yiyus, Zwaarddijk}> ANYTHING AT ALL
13:44:32 <Vorpal> hah
13:45:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, wait what, the domain is at $800 ? That's insane
13:45:16 <Gregor> Vorpal: The domain finally went for $1,350
13:45:22 <Vorpal> Gregor, who won it?
13:45:29 <Gregor> Mr. 449
13:45:36 <Vorpal> not you then?
13:45:52 <Gregor> I'm Mr. 442 :P
13:45:56 <Vorpal> ah
13:53:15 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Zwaarddijk talks.
13:53:34 <Gregor> I remember a time when bsmntbombdood, SimonRC and jix talked :P
13:53:45 <Gregor> dbc is an enigma.
13:54:03 <Phantom_Hoover> He's a Researcher Of Brainfuck, no?
13:54:13 <Gregor> ENIGMA
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13:59:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, To add to Gregor's list: lifthrasiir used to talk. mycroftiv talks sometimes, but rarely. sebbu I remember talking too.
14:00:35 <Phantom_Hoover> He said tonnes back in The Day.
14:00:41 <Phantom_Hoover> (dbc, that is.)
14:01:39 <Gregor> ENIGMA
14:06:24 <cheater99> jesus.. osx is so terrible.. i am having flashbacks
14:06:52 <cheater99> seriously, can't alt-tab to a window? what?
14:07:06 <Vorpal> cheater99, cmd-tab?
14:07:10 <cheater99> cluttering the switcher menu with inactive applications?
14:07:17 <cheater99> Vorpal: yes, it's "an alt-tab"
14:07:27 <Vorpal> cheater99, same thing...
14:07:40 <cheater99> no it's not, because you can't alt-tab into a window
14:07:50 <cheater99> you can alt-tab into an applciation and it brings up all of its windows at once.
14:08:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, wait, I have another one.
14:08:01 <cheater99> welcome to multitasking a'la 1982
14:08:10 <cheater99> and the best of them all.. you install applications by copying folders.
14:08:12 <Phantom_Hoover> <cheater*> I grew up!
14:08:32 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover: is that why all this hair has started showing up in weird places?
14:09:17 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover: wait, growing up - i'm glad they didn't put me in a retirement house yet!
14:09:40 <Vorpal> cheater99, actually, self-contained applications is a good idea. The OS X packages may or may not be a good way to do that though.
14:10:01 <cheater99> it's an insanely bad idea
14:10:05 <cheater99> what if i copy it to the wrong spot?
14:10:08 <Vorpal> but on windows, and linux, applications tend to spread out
14:10:23 <cheater99> i mean the idea of doing it like osx does it is bad
14:10:32 <Vorpal> linux has package manager, that works. Windows is a mess when it comes to installing/uninstalling things.
14:10:33 <cheater99> self-containment might have some merit, but i am not so sure either
14:10:38 <cheater99> i like packages with dependencies more
14:10:45 <cheater99> yes, osx is a similar mess
14:11:14 <Vorpal> cheater99, not quite. As for copying to wrong spot, I doubt things would blow up
14:11:18 <cheater99> oh yeah, let's have a billion copies of the same software in slightly-incompatible versions with different bugs in them
14:12:09 <cheater99> really, the lacking of a real alt-tab is devastating to my productivity
14:12:29 <cheater99> using the mouse to navigate between firefox windows? who's come up with that sick joke?
14:12:49 <Vorpal> cheater99, Only thing I use often that doesn't do tabs or such inside a single main window is gimp
14:13:10 <Vorpal> most things, like browser, text editor, and so on, are tabbed or similar.
14:13:21 <cheater99> tabs ok
14:13:25 <cheater99> but i use tabs + windows
14:13:31 <Vorpal> cheater99, why do you use multiple firefox windows...
14:13:58 <cheater99> one window for email, one window for reading up on whatever technology i am using right now, one window for another technology, one window for something else
14:14:13 <Vorpal> cheater99, anyway, I'm sure there is some third party program to do what you want. Or you could install linux on that thing.
14:14:47 <Vorpal> cheater99, email is a separate program, no?
14:15:02 <cheater99> yes, gmail.
14:15:09 <Vorpal> ...
14:15:17 <Vorpal> thunderbird or such
14:15:22 <cheater99> yes, gmail
14:15:45 <cheater99> it's not like gmail is running on my compu^w mac
14:15:56 <cheater99> can't call a mac a computer :|
14:16:04 <cheater99> just... can't. *sigh*
14:16:14 <Vorpal> I use gmail from thunderbird with IMAP
14:16:24 <cheater99> i use gmail with firefox
14:17:06 <cheater99> Vorpal: another thing is that all the software on mac is paid-for
14:17:31 <cheater99> i bet the next version you'll need to pay-for the ability to create directories
14:17:36 <Vorpal> anyway, I'm sure there is some solution to your issue. Besides alt-tab is rather inefficient I find. Unless you just have a handful of windows/programs you end up tabbing a lot
14:18:00 <Vorpal> with more than 10 windows or so, alt-tab is pretty much unusable
14:18:12 <Vorpal> unless they happen to lie close to each other
14:18:42 <Vorpal> <cheater99> i bet the next version you'll need to pay-for the ability to create directories <-- that made no sense.
14:18:50 <cheater99> well i usually end up using only a few windows during any given extended time
14:19:30 <cheater99> so alt-tab works well, i only need to alt-tab 3-deep most times
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14:19:55 <cheater99> when i am changing my workflow (for example, starting to work on something else) i usually use the taskbar... oh wait, osx HAS NO TASKBAR
14:19:56 <cheater99> :(
14:20:55 <Vorpal> it has a dock, which you can put stuff in. And also shows open programs. From what I remember the windows 7 task bar works pretty much the same.
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14:26:22 <cheater00> Vorpal: <Vorpal> <cheater99> i bet the next version you'll need to pay-for the ability to create directories <-- that made no sense. < what i meant was that you have to pay for such simple things, things that in linux have been solved ages ago, to much better effect than those paid-for options for mac, and the linux versions are free.
14:33:07 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: To continue your "impossibilities" theme: <dbc> [something that is not an ASCII-art fractal]
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14:33:46 <elliott> HOLY SHIT THE CLOG HEADER FILE CHANGED
14:33:57 <elliott> "For pre-2011 clog logs, go to http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/old/."
14:33:58 <elliott> WTF
14:33:59 <elliott> *wtf
14:34:01 <elliott> that's just stupid
14:34:04 <elliott> now all log links are broken
14:34:21 <elliott> wtf
14:34:25 <elliott> they're only available in zip now
14:34:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Makes sense, though.
14:34:49 <elliott> No it doesn't.
14:34:58 <elliott> Breaking links is not a good idea. Ever.
14:36:00 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, fair enough.
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14:36:59 <elliott> (OK, it is *sometimes*.)
14:37:15 <elliott> (But not for small, easily-kept, widely-publicised (in the community) plain text files like IRC logs.)
14:44:33 <fizzie> Obviously the only sensible solution is for #esoteric to become an IDF (International DOI Foundation) registered Registration Agency, and thereafter assign a DOI for each #esoteric log-line, to ensure them links will always stay intact.
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14:56:14 <cheater00> what is a DOI?
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15:02:35 <fizzie> It's a supposedly-permanent-identifier-for-an-object thing; quite a lot of sciencey publishers provide DOIs for their papers.
15:03:04 <Gregor> It's at least significant enough to not be in Wikipedia :P
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15:06:53 <cheater00> fizzie: why have you not told me what DOI stands for?
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15:25:13 <fizzie> Document Object Identifier.
15:25:27 <fizzie> Sorry, Digital.
15:25:35 <fizzie> And it's in Wikipedia all right.
15:27:28 <Gregor> Oh, so it is, I just didn't speculate that that would be the expansion you were going for.
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15:31:34 <sebbu> Vorpal, sometimes, but rarely ;)
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15:38:06 <elliott> 13:35:22: <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Why must the Bulwer-Lytton web site be the most abysmally 1993 web site ever?
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15:38:23 <elliott> Gregor: Because the Bulwer-Lytton is ~0% as awesome as the Lyttle Lytton.
15:39:46 <elliott> 13:42:18: <fizzie> <zzo38> [A completely normal comment.]
15:39:50 <elliott> oh my god this is the best thing ever :D
15:40:06 <elliott> 13:53:34: <Gregor> I remember a time when bsmntbombdood, SimonRC and jix talked :P
15:40:10 <elliott> Gregor: i remember when the first two did
15:40:25 <elliott> 13:53:45: <Gregor> dbc is an enigma.
15:40:25 <elliott> I THINK WE'VE ALREADY ESTABLISHED HE'S VERY BUSY
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15:41:08 <elliott> 14:06:24: <cheater99> jesus.. osx is so terrible.. i am having flashbacks
15:41:08 <elliott> 14:06:52: <cheater99> seriously, can't alt-tab to a window? what?
15:41:16 <elliott> OH NOES OS X IS APPLICATION ORIENTED AND IT TAKES A DIFFERENT KEY COMBO TO SWITCH WINDOWS
15:41:34 <elliott> 14:08:10: <cheater99> and the best of them all.. you install applications by copying folders.
15:41:35 <elliott> OH NOES I DON'T HAVE TO DEAL WITH INSANELY CRAPPY INSTALLERS, APPLICATIONS ARE SELF-CONTAINED AND seriously there is not a single thing wrong with applications as directories?
15:41:38 <elliott> this is the poorest trolling ever
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15:42:57 <elliott> 14:09:40: <Vorpal> cheater99, actually, self-contained applications is a good idea. The OS X packages may or may not be a good way to do that though.
15:42:57 <elliott> 14:10:01: <cheater99> it's an insanely bad idea
15:42:57 <elliott> 14:10:05: <cheater99> what if i copy it to the wrong spot?
15:42:58 <elliott> ...
15:43:05 <elliott> i should totally not be feeding the troll but what the hell, Vorpal already did
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15:43:19 <elliott> especially considering that os x apps can run from anywhere anyway
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15:44:21 <elliott> 14:33:07: <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: To continue your "impossibilities" theme: <dbc> [something that is not an ASCII-art fractal]
15:44:26 <elliott> fizzie: 2002 much?
15:45:01 <Gregor> OS X's implementation of virtual desktops ("spaces") is abysmally bad, and in particular breaks modal windows; if they open in a non-current space, they have all modal properties except that they are not always-on-top or visible on every space, so they force the user (me) to play Hunt The Window. Other than that my problems with OS X are mainly its hilariously obsolete console userland and pointlessly flashy UI. LET THE TROLLERY BEGIN.
15:45:10 <fizzie> elliott: I am such an old-fashioned guy.
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15:45:18 <elliott> Gregor: Nobody likes Spaces X-P
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15:45:47 <Ilari> APNIC: 7 215 616 IP addresses left (0.43 blocks, down 0.08): 64k to China, 3x4k+1k to Japan, 1M to South Korea, 256 to Signapore, 6x32k to Thailand, 16k+2k to Vietnam
15:45:51 <elliott> Gregor: Nothing you said is incorrect, unlike every single incredibly poor trolling attempt by cheater that still provoked me and Vorpal into replying :P
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15:46:26 <Gregor> I like appdirs, wish LiGnuX (lol) would adopt 'em.
15:46:40 <elliott> Gregor: ROX is that way :P
15:46:55 <elliott> Gregor: (ROX being the rather dead attempt to clone the RISC OS environment on LeeGNUx.)
15:47:13 <elliott> Gregor: ROX Filer actually supports them, anyway, and IIRC there's some kind of Zero-Install integration :P
15:47:20 <elliott> (ROX Filer is also the only tolerable graphical file manager.)
15:47:43 <Gregor> The only tolerable graphical file manager is coreutils in an xterm!
15:48:09 <elliott> I still want a terminal/file manager hybrid that lets me type "t*" and all the files starting with t in the current directory would get highlighted in the top pane :P
15:48:20 <elliott> And also select files graphically and have it update a glob on the command line.
15:48:47 <elliott> e.g. "mv foo.png [fishes in top pane through subdir hierarchy for the right dir] a/b/c/d"
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15:49:49 <Gregor> I'm also waiting for PureDarwin :P
15:49:56 <Gregor> ANY YEAR NOW MAN
15:49:57 <Gregor> ANY YEAR NOW
15:50:26 <elliott> Gregor: I want the opposite... I want someone to use that Mach-O loader to port all the OS X foundation libraries and then run the Quartz display server on it X-D
15:50:51 <elliott> ALSO KNOWN AS: The easiest way to get a userland newer than 10 years old in an OS X environment
15:51:18 <Gregor> ... I'm not sure what the purpose of using maloader is for that ...
15:51:31 <elliott> Gregor: Because... all the OS X Quartz binaries... are Mach-Os?
15:51:34 <elliott> And closed source?
15:51:39 <Gregor> PureDarwin uses Mach-O, and is compatible with console Mac OS X apps.
15:51:59 <elliott> Well, yeah, you could do that.
15:52:06 <Gregor> In principle you could drag over the appropriate files from a Mac OS X install and make some beastly hybrid.
15:52:14 <Vorpal> <Gregor> OS X's implementation of virtual desktops ("spaces") is abysmally bad, and in particular breaks modal windows; if they open in a non-current space, they have all modal properties except that they are not always-on-top or visible on every space, so they force the user (me) to play Hunt The Window. Other than that my problems with OS X are mainly its hilariously obsolete console userland and poin
15:52:15 <Vorpal> tlessly flashy UI. LET THE TROLLERY BEGIN. <-- apart from system auth dialogs and critical system error messages, modal windows are a *bad* idea.
15:52:20 <Vorpal> gah the line length
15:52:22 <elliott> I'm not sure the kernel modules and drivers and the like would interact properly :P
15:52:31 <Gregor> Vorpal: Yes, they are, but that doesn't make it OK to break them ...
15:52:41 <Gregor> elliott: True enough *shrugs*
15:52:54 <elliott> Gregor: Anyway, the thing with app folders is that they're... wait for it... essentially just static linking.
15:53:03 <elliott> At least if done in the OS X "every app includes its dependencies" sense.
15:53:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, they shouldn't be permitted IMO. Like you should need to run with elevated privs to be able to tell the windowing system to show a modal window.
15:53:21 <elliott> I suppose you could have a nice deduplicative system that hard-links libraries with equivalent checksums and filenames, but :P
15:53:38 <elliott> What I'm sayin' is: STATIC LINKING IT'S WHAT'S FOR DINNER
15:54:31 <Vorpal> I mean, how hard would it be to make a screen locker kind of application without the unlocking stuff? I doubt you need special privs with X11 for it, other than the basic "permitted to talk to server"
15:54:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Depends how you define "modal"
15:55:07 <elliott> If it's "modal to one window/application", that's shitty, but not something to ban
15:55:11 <Vorpal> elliott, well, modal within an application would be okay yeah
15:55:12 <elliott> Especially as the app could simulate it itself.
15:55:14 <Gregor> elliott: Static linking is fine, people just have to learn that there's a distinction between "random vendor-supplied garbage" and "random distro-supplied garbage", and different types of linking and inclusion policies are better for each.
15:55:21 <Vorpal> elliott, what I meant here was system wide modal
15:55:59 <elliott> Gregor: Sure... but on a typical Linux system, there's not much more than libc that fits the system-wide dynamic policy there :P
15:56:38 <elliott> Maybe libpng and the like, ncurses, arguably gtk/qt, ...
15:56:52 <Vorpal> elliott, which should pretty much be limited to stuff like auth dialogs, confirmation of shutdown/log out, and criticial errors ("system logger just crashed" would be a good example)
15:56:53 <elliott> But eh
15:57:06 <Gregor> elliott: Well, now that you've covered 95% of libraries that programs typically link to, what next? :P
15:57:32 <elliott> Gregor: I said ARGUABLY gtk/qt, I don't think I'd dynamically link those in reality.
15:57:44 <elliott> Because I don't trust GUI lib vendors to not fuck up the ABI :)
15:58:07 <Gregor> $ du -h /usr/lib64/qt4/libQtWebKit.so.4.6.2
15:58:07 <Gregor> 16M /usr/lib64/qt4/libQtWebKit.so.4.6.2
15:58:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I have an idea. It has probably been thought of before. On-the-fly static linking. (Probably with some OS-managed caching though)
15:58:25 <Gregor> (Not an argument, just an observation I always ♥)
15:58:58 <elliott> Gregor: Yah, that's a really convincing argument that C++ and Qt and WebKit all need to die in a fiery pit :P
15:59:24 <Vorpal> elliott, basically it statically links in .a and .o on as required when you run it. This would allow deduplicative storage too
15:59:38 <Gregor> What OBLISK did way back when I maintained it was accept any host libraries that pass the ldd -r test, and if they don't it swapped them out for included libraries. So bugfixes or distro integration could be used in most cases, but it would work in other cases.
15:59:48 <elliott> Unfortunately the typical benefit of static linking (only links what you need) doesn't really help there because (1) there's not that many separate components to WebKit from an app point of view and (2) they probably don't separate their object files properly because that would be horrific in C++.
16:00:33 <elliott> Gregor: Honestly I'm *actually* a total dynamic linking fan, it's just that Unix fucks it up like everything :P
16:00:49 <elliott> I like static linking on Unix purely because it's less of a headache.
16:01:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, OBLISK?
16:01:09 <Gregor> elliott: And you prefer what, PE/COFF .dlls? :P
16:01:20 <Gregor> Vorpal: A portable appdir system I made once a long long time ago.
16:01:38 <Vorpal> heh
16:02:33 <elliott> Gregor: I prefer a late-bound object (FSVO 〃) ecosystem X-D
16:02:41 <Vorpal> elliott, you could do "only links what you need" with dynamic linking too. /lib/libc/printf.so eh?
16:03:16 <elliott> Sweet, Unicode has mutton spaces.
16:03:26 <Vorpal> Gregor, how does webkit compare to boost on that system?
16:03:40 <Vorpal> elliott, what on earth is a "mutton space"?
16:04:14 <elliott> Vorpal: a mutton space.
16:04:19 <elliott> Define "boost"
16:04:23 <elliott> Boost doesn't have all that many object files
16:04:25 <elliott> It's mostly headers :P
16:04:30 <Vorpal> hm true
16:04:46 <elliott> C++ libraries can only be statically linked because of templates, pretty much... statically source-linked. With headers.
16:04:53 <elliott> (Template-based C++ libraries, that is.)
16:05:07 <Vorpal> elliott, it does have the longest symbols names on my system though (both when mangled and unmangled)
16:05:23 <Vorpal> it does have a few .so
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16:08:47 <Ilari> New estimate for APNIC depletion: Friday 15th April.
16:09:33 <coppro> fun
16:09:57 <Vorpal> Ilari, what happens then? Some special rule for last block?
16:10:08 <Ilari> Slow week: 0.33 blocks.
16:10:26 <Ilari> Yes.
16:12:47 <Ilari> It seems that slow and fast weeks alternate. Week before this used about 0.56 blocks.
16:13:28 <Ilari> And in alternation, next week would be "fast", depling APNIC.
16:13:35 <Ilari> *depleting
16:14:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:14:16 <fizzie> Phew, for a moment I thought "depling" was some sort of new hip Internet slang for depletion-in-the-context-of-IPv4.
16:14:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
16:18:39 <elliott> 15:58:24: <Vorpal> elliott, I have an idea. It has probably been thought of before. On-the-fly static linking. (Probably with some OS-managed caching though)
16:18:39 <elliott> aka...
16:18:41 <elliott> dynamic linking?
16:20:20 <Vorpal> elliott, not quite.
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16:20:49 <Vorpal> elliott, the dynamic linker (ld.so) works quite differently from the static linker (ld)
16:21:08 <Vorpal> this would however work better with byte code I think
16:21:32 <Vorpal> elliott, what does smalltalk do? I'm not sure how to classify it
16:22:40 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
16:30:12 <Ilari> Logspace: /9.217. Binary Decomposition: /10+/11+/13+/14+/15+/20+/21+/23.
16:32:44 -!- variable has changed nick to invariable.
16:37:31 <Ilari> Block counts (start at /10): 1, 2, 4, 9, 19, 38, 76, 163, 346, 756, 1586, 3309, 6749, 13738, 28186.
16:38:35 <Ilari> That is, 19 large blocks (256k) remain.
16:44:33 <Phantom_Hoover> OK GUYS I HAVE COME UP WITH MY PRETENTIOUS LATIN MOTTO
16:44:47 <Phantom_Hoover> CIRCVMDOR IDIOTAM
16:47:24 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:50:29 -!- azaq23 has joined.
17:05:48 -!- elliott has joined.
17:05:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Whaddya mean "what does smalltalk do"?
17:16:41 <Vorpal> elliott, well, with it's world image thingy, does it link the executable code for running it at runtime?
17:17:04 <Vorpal> I don't even know if they JIT, interpret or whatever
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17:20:53 <Gregor> Vorpal: When new code is encountered, the Smalltalk VM sends it to smalltalk.arpa:666, where it is received by the only living human who understands Smalltalk. He rewrites it in C, which is sent back to the VM. The VM compiles that C into an object file and dynamically loads that into its current environment.
17:21:18 <elliott> Precisely.
17:21:32 <elliott> 17:16:41: <Vorpal> elliott, well, with it's world image thingy, does it link the executable code for running it at runtime?
17:21:35 <elliott> I still don't know what this means.
17:27:41 -!- joojii has joined.
17:27:57 <elliott> joojii iiijijojojo
17:28:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, aha. Well that explains why I never managed to get it working without an internet connection.
17:30:10 <elliott> http://wikien4.appspot.com/wiki/Main_Page
17:30:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Gonna clarify? :P
17:30:30 <Gregor> elliott: lolwut
17:30:38 <elliott> Gregor: ELMERFUDDPEDIA
17:31:04 <Gregor> elliott: I like how it replaced "the" but not "The"
17:31:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not sure what I meant. But does smalltalk need a linker to execute?
17:31:43 <Vorpal> (apart from, you know, for loading the virtual machine on the host os)
17:31:53 <elliott> Vorpal: To execute what? The Smalltalk VM? A given method?
17:32:08 <Vorpal> elliott, the latter I guess
17:35:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Why would it?
17:35:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Does Python require a linker for a method to execute "obj = Foo(); obj.bar()"?
17:37:54 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, arguably you could say that it has a kind of linker for "import somemodule"
17:38:05 <Vorpal> not really in the normal sense of linker though
17:38:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Not really a linker; it just executes somemodule.py in the current global context, really.
17:43:44 <elliott> Ilari: What TLDs have A records?
17:43:47 <elliott> ai does, com doesn't.
17:44:32 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, right. I guess it would be more of a linker (though still not very much) for something like java
17:44:51 <Ilari> elliott: IIRC, none anymore (but some IIRC did in the past).
17:44:52 <invariable> <elliott> Ilari: What TLDs have A records? --> none should
17:45:02 <invariable> Ilari: do you mean the wildcard domains?
17:45:06 <elliott> ai.86400INA209.59.119.34
17:45:09 <elliott> Ilari: invariable: factually incorrect
17:45:13 <elliott> IIRC n@ai is a guy called Ian :-)
17:45:25 <elliott> my browser will refuse to go to http://ai/. but the IP works.
17:45:42 <Vorpal> elliott, .ai, where is that?
17:45:44 <invariable> elliott: strange.
17:45:48 <Gregor> elliott: How about http://ai./?
17:45:53 <Ilari> Ah, there are those (I looked it wrong).
17:45:59 <elliott> That works.
17:46:11 <elliott> I wonder how many email clients will send to n@ai.
17:46:14 <Ilari> ai. doesn't just have a A record, it has _MX_ record.
17:46:15 <Vorpal> elliott, and lucky guy that Ian.
17:46:30 <elliott> Right. Thus the email I guess :-P
17:46:40 <elliott> Strange, dig(1) doesn't give me the NX record.
17:46:57 <Vorpal> elliott: dig ai. IN MX
17:46:58 <invariable> elliott: most email clients won't send to all RFC compliant email addresses
17:46:59 <Ilari> Meh, no AAAA records.
17:47:04 <invariable> "foo@foo.com"@a
17:47:05 <elliott> invariable: of course :P
17:47:07 <invariable> :-)
17:47:09 <elliott> Ilari: Write an complain ;)
17:47:12 <elliott> invariable: You forgot (comments).
17:47:23 <Vorpal> elliott, that gives me the MX record. Sure you remembered IN MX?
17:47:26 <elliott> ;; ANSWER SECTION:
17:47:26 <elliott> tk.300INA217.119.57.22
17:47:41 <invariable> elliott: heh. by I stand by my none *should* comment before
17:47:44 <invariable> * btw
17:47:50 <elliott> invariable: YOU ARE NO FUN.
17:47:52 <invariable> some *might have* but they shouldn't
17:48:06 <elliott> Shut up, I want a three-character domain name :-D
17:48:08 <elliott> ONE DAY
17:48:18 <invariable> elliott: I WANT A GOOD DOMAIN NAME TOO
17:48:27 <Ilari> That doesn't have MX record, but A record is enough for SMTP to attempt delivery.
17:48:29 <elliott> DON'T SAY SUCH THINGS THEN
17:48:32 <Vorpal> <invariable> elliott: most email clients won't send to all RFC compliant email addresses <-- pine/alpine/mutt can even handle comments with escaped end-comment symbols within. Way more than for example thunderbird can
17:48:43 <Gregor> invariable: SO DID I.
17:48:44 <invariable> Vorpal: ofc.
17:48:50 <invariable> Gregor: BUT YOU ARE GETTING ONE
17:48:51 <Gregor> invariable: We can't always get what we want.
17:48:59 <elliott> Gregor: Waaaah
17:49:06 <Gregor> invariable: Dood, I didn't get libc.so
17:49:06 <invariable> Gregor: you failed the libc.so auction?
17:49:12 <elliott> invariable: Nope, it went to $1,000,000 which was 2 cents over his limit.
17:49:12 <invariable> :-(
17:49:21 <elliott> (His pocket money for the week)
17:49:38 <invariable> Gregor: ouch. I wonder who did get it
17:49:56 <Vorpal> invariable, I think he said it went to $1300 or something around there
17:50:02 <Vorpal> which was still over his budget
17:50:05 <invariable> wow!
17:50:09 <invariable> :-\
17:50:14 <Vorpal> invariable, elliott was (of course) exaggerating
17:50:17 <Gregor> invariable: We will soon know who got it :P
17:50:21 <elliott> I SAID $1,000,000 OK
17:50:25 <elliott> THAT WAS THE PRICE
17:51:08 <Gregor> invariable: To elliott, $1,000 is effectively infinite money, and values greater than infinity are like matter at speeds faster than light; theoretically possible, but impossible to see or measure.
17:51:20 <Gregor> "greater than $1,000" that is, since $1,000 = infinity.
17:51:26 <Ilari> ua. doesn't have A/AAAA but has MX records. :-)
17:51:29 <elliott> Gregor: Trololololololol
17:52:35 <Gregor> invariable: The same goes for ais btw.
17:52:51 <invariable> :-\ saturation arithmetic
17:53:20 -!- cpressey has joined.
17:53:28 <elliott> (Gregor is rationalising away anyone who tells him that spending $800 on a domain isn't worth it)
17:53:32 <elliott> Trololololololol
17:53:45 <Vorpal> Gregor, I like that explanation!
17:53:54 <Vorpal> (wait, did I typo that?)
17:53:59 * invariable is away
17:54:05 <elliott> YOU CANNOT ESCAPE
17:54:08 <Vorpal> invariable, you are?
17:54:52 <Vorpal> invariable, if you are away, how can you possibly say that? Or did you use a timer to cause your irc client to say that after you left?
17:55:25 <Gregor> He's locked in a matrix of solidity. He cannot respond.
17:55:34 <Vorpal> ah
18:00:03 <Sgeo> How about $75 for early access to a game and dev tools for it?
18:00:54 <elliott> Sgeo: what
18:01:18 <Sgeo> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1508284443/grandroids-real-artificial-life-on-your-pc I want the $75 level
18:02:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, did you see your section of the List of Impossible Things.
18:02:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I was thinking of expanding it.
18:03:05 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> I paid for something!
18:03:06 <Sgeo> ?
18:03:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:03:21 <Phantom_Hoover> <Sgeo> I succeeded at something!
18:03:22 <elliott> "Note that NestedVM uses GCC 3.3.6, which will not compile under GCC 4.1 or later."
18:03:34 <elliott> I eagerly await the day where the only thing that compile a given gcc version is that gcc version.
18:03:39 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, yes, but would "I paid for something!" be the expansion?
18:03:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, dunno.
18:03:55 <Phantom_Hoover> You have moneys, don't you?
18:04:05 <Sgeo> Hard to access monies
18:04:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But but he'd have to ask his father
18:04:25 <Phantom_Hoover> If the word "dad" appears in the reason for that I am coming to America.
18:04:29 <Phantom_Hoover> And killing him.
18:04:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, wait, no.
18:05:20 <cpressey> <Vorpal> elliott, hm, arguably you could say that it has a kind of linker for "import somemodule"
18:05:32 <elliott> Hey cpressey. For all intensive purposes they will hopefully take for granite the peek affect on our moral of loosing there free rain over how we will be faring after pouring over the data which was delivered to late.
18:05:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm being dragged off to Italy, then I have to crash that LW meeting.
18:05:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: YOU FOOL
18:05:51 <Vorpal> cpressey, I forgot that python actually ran code in the module, if you have any outside functions
18:05:52 <elliott> DON'T MENTION IT IN A PUBLIC CHANNEL
18:05:52 <cpressey> Or you could say it has some kind of linker for "foo.bar"
18:05:54 <Phantom_Hoover> OK
18:05:56 <Phantom_Hoover> FINE
18:05:56 <elliott> ELIEZER YUDKOWSKY KNOWS ALL
18:05:57 <Vorpal> cpressey, so scratch that
18:06:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I AM SORRY I SUCK AT THIS SORT OF THING
18:06:14 <cpressey> wait what
18:06:18 <elliott> cpressey: NOTHING
18:06:18 <elliott> HAPPENED
18:06:24 <Phantom_Hoover> DID I MENTION ALL THE THINGS ME AND EHIRD BLEW UP
18:06:26 <Phantom_Hoover> IN MC
18:07:05 <cpressey> please don't
18:07:13 <Ilari> ac. has A, ai. has A/MX, as. has MX, bi. has A, bj. has MX, cf. has MX, cm. has A, dj. has MX, dk. has A, dm. has MX, gg. has A, gp. has MX, gt. has MX, hk. has A, hr. has MX, io. has A/MX, je. has A, kh. has MX, km. has MX, lk. has MX,
18:07:22 <Ilari> mh. has MX, mq. has MX, ne. has MX, pa. has MX, ph. has A, pn. has A, sh. has A, td. has A, tk. has A, tm. has A, to. has A, tt. has MX, ua. has MX, uz. has A, va. has MX, ws. has A/MX, xn--o3cw4h. has A and ye. has MX.
18:07:37 <Ilari> No AAAA records. :-/
18:08:05 <elliott> lol at the xn- one
18:08:16 <Vorpal> that must be a IDN one, right?
18:08:19 <Ilari> Yeah.
18:08:19 <Vorpal> for which country
18:08:23 <Gregor> lol @ .bi
18:08:29 <Gregor> Time to buy porn.bi
18:08:35 <Gregor> (Probably owned :P )
18:08:39 <elliott> Gregor: Also bj
18:08:43 <Ilari> Thailand apparently.
18:08:46 <elliott> free.bj
18:09:04 <elliott> http://bi./ Bisexuality: It works!
18:09:12 <Gregor> elliott: I looked them up on Wikipedia, .bj isn't available to just anyone :P
18:09:24 <Gregor> elliott: BAHAHAHAHA
18:09:25 <Gregor> YES
18:09:37 <Vorpal> Ilari, what about TXT records? Does any have that?
18:09:43 <elliott> When googling for ".bj":
18:09:45 <elliott> How To Give a Good BJ
18:09:45 <elliott> 5 min - 14 May 2008
18:09:45 <elliott> howcast.com
18:09:52 <elliott> WHY DOES THIS EXIST
18:10:04 <Ilari> I saw some, including URLs, SPF records and general text.
18:10:06 <elliott> Domain names that:
18:10:07 <elliott> are composed of a single nature;
18:10:07 <elliott> are composed of two letters only;
18:10:07 <elliott> begin or end with an indent “-”; or
18:10:07 <elliott> are of a length greater than 255 characters (or 63 by under field)
18:10:09 <elliott> cannot be recorded.
18:10:15 <elliott> What a really awkward paragraph
18:10:28 <elliott> Ilari: Now curl(1) all the domains with As, and filter out all the no-responses and "It works!"s :P
18:10:42 <Vorpal> elliott, where is that from?
18:11:21 <Vorpal> elliott, I think some redirects to the nic
18:12:15 <Ilari> Quite many TLDs have MX records. Wonder how many places would reject those addresses. :-)
18:26:43 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
18:28:35 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:28:52 <elliott> hi oerjan
18:28:55 <elliott> you are cpressey
18:29:48 <oerjan> i am?
18:30:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
18:30:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Science confirms it.
18:31:05 <elliott> * cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving)
18:31:06 <elliott> * oerjan (oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no) has joined #esoteric
18:31:11 <Phantom_Hoover> New Impossible Thing:
18:31:17 <elliott> I was about to say "WORLD'S QUICKEST SEX CHANGE"
18:31:20 <elliott> then I was like... wait... what?
18:31:28 <elliott> apparently my brain knows something about cpressey and/or oerjan that I don't
18:31:37 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> QUICK I NEED MORE
18:31:45 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> yes ok i will use my operator powers to remove trolls.
18:31:45 <oerjan> Puns are overrated
18:31:54 <oerjan> *!
18:32:03 <oerjan> oh yeah that one too
18:32:15 <elliott> douchebag oerjan
18:32:17 <elliott> BANS ELLIOTT
18:32:17 <elliott>
18:32:20 <elliott> DOESN'T BAN ANYONE WHO ISN'T ELLIOTT
18:32:33 -!- asiekierka_ has joined.
18:32:35 <oerjan> elliott: YOU ARE NOT BANNED SHUTUP
18:32:35 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:32:44 <elliott> oerjan: Shut up about banning!
18:32:44 <oerjan> (SHUTUP on the other hand is banned)
18:33:29 <oerjan> also, antisomething
18:33:37 <elliott> antiwhat
18:34:02 <oerjan> antioptbot
18:34:07 <elliott> oh right
18:35:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, Neil Gaiman's episode of Doctor Who is going to be called "The Doctor's Wife".
18:35:32 <Phantom_Hoover> My fanwank detector is going off.
18:37:12 <oerjan> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, To add to Gregor's list: lifthrasiir used to talk. mycroftiv talks sometimes, but rarely. sebbu I remember talking too.
18:37:18 <oerjan> mtve talked the other day
18:37:44 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, WHY IS SHUTUP BANNED
18:38:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm. But isn't Neil Gaiman competent?
18:38:08 <sebbu> because he didn't ?
18:38:10 <oerjan> mainly so the whole channel won't be spammed by elliott trying to annoy Sgeo
18:38:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, he is, but remember that he'll still have to work it into whatever stupid story arc they have.
18:39:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm okay
18:39:08 <Phantom_Hoover> (I'm seriously wondering how Doctor Who is going to keep up the endless escalation of series finale threats.)
18:39:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, they still have a handful of doctors to go, right?
18:39:40 <Phantom_Hoover> "FUTURE EARTH" "MODERN EARTH" "THE UNIVERSE" "REALITY ITSELF" "ERM... SAME AGAIN" "DITTO"
18:40:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean, as cliff hangers or what?
18:40:22 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hm there was a severe lack of Sgeo in that list. although he probably needs his own section.
18:40:38 <Sgeo> oerjan, no there wasn't?
18:40:48 <Sgeo> Are you looking at logs, or just scrollback?
18:40:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I mean the inevitable and hammy as hell series finales.
18:40:55 <oerjan> oh wait
18:41:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah
18:41:25 <oerjan> Sgeo: i didn't see it because he took a break after it before all the others
18:41:52 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> "FUTURE EARTH" "MODERN EARTH" "THE UNIVERSE" "REALITY ITSELF" "ERM... SAME AGAIN" "DITTO"
18:41:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well we could always revisit TIME ITSELF
18:42:03 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, I think I kind of summed up most of the Sgeo ones
18:42:10 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, hmm, which one was TIME ITSELF?
18:42:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The special. You know, with DEM GALLIFREY PEEPS.
18:42:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Series 4 or the Year Of the Specials?
18:42:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Year Of The Specials, then.
18:42:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, is "time itself" worse than "reality itself"?
18:42:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it means that, like, time never happened.
18:43:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose I can work it into my "time is 2D" theory for Doctor Who.
18:43:32 <oerjan> clearly the next level up is _our_ reality; they need to burn down the bbc or something.
18:43:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, I'm having some trouble telling if time never happening or reality never happening is worst.
18:44:07 <Vorpal> hah
18:44:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Define "time is 2D".
18:44:41 <Gregor> CONSIDER: A machine that allows you to "reorient" yourself relative to the physical and temporal dimensions, so that one of the physical dimensions becomes time, and time is experienced as a physical dimension.
18:44:45 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, rather than one time axis, you have 2, time and metatime.
18:44:56 <elliott> 18:39:28: <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, they still have a handful of doctors to go, right?
18:45:02 <elliott> "To go"? They have an infinite amount.
18:45:11 -!- augur has joined.
18:45:18 <Gregor> elliott: There's some quote somewhere about a maximum of 12, which they just surpassed.
18:45:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, they should have started smaller. Then they would have more time left. Like "Hyde Park itself", "London itself", "England itself", "UK itself", "Europe itself" and so on
18:45:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, no they didn't.
18:45:31 <Phantom_Hoover> They're on 11 out of 13.
18:45:46 <elliott> Gregor: OH RIGHT, they're going to end a wildly popular 60s-onwards money-cow franchise...
18:45:57 <elliott> Because of an easily handwaved-away limit.
18:46:10 <Phantom_Hoover> ANYWAY I was explaining metatime.
18:46:10 <Gregor> elliott: This is one of these "some fan saw this somewhere" limit, not one of these "the show will actually end" limits :P
18:46:13 <Vorpal> elliott, well they will have to do something about that limit.
18:46:16 <elliott> "Thanks to the energy from the TARDIS, I can DOUBLE my regenerations! YOU WON'T WIN THIS TIME, DALEKS!!!!!!!"
18:46:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, it's an official limit, actually.
18:46:39 <Phantom_Hoover> But yeah, Doctor Who is horrific at internal consistency.
18:46:41 <Phantom_Hoover> ANYWAY
18:46:44 <elliott> An official limit that will stand until it is reached :P
18:46:49 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Ohright; not twelve doctors, twelve regenerations. And I was off by one on which doctor we're on.
18:47:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Right, so time, rather than being immutable, is mutable as metatime advances.
18:47:13 <oerjan> two off by one errors
18:47:20 <Vorpal> <Gregor> CONSIDER: A machine that allows you to "reorient" yourself relative to the physical and temporal dimensions, so that one of the physical dimensions becomes time, and time is experienced as a physical dimension. <-- hm, that sounds awesome, but would other people see me floating sideways (my time)
18:47:23 <Phantom_Hoover> That's a terrible explanation, but it'll have to do.
18:47:36 <Vorpal> and what if I bump into a wall then
18:47:46 <Gregor> Vorpal: Yup. But the time dimension as space is what makes it really wtfery :P
18:47:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, you go back in time and kill Hitler, you go forwards in metatime and the structure of time changes.
18:47:57 <oerjan> Vorpal: only if you actually move in the dimension that is _their_ time...
18:48:13 <elliott> <Gregor> CONSIDER: A machine that allows you to "reorient" yourself relative to the physical and temporal dimensions, so that one of the physical dimensions becomes time, and time is experienced as a physical dimension.
18:48:14 <Vorpal> oerjan, err?
18:48:16 <elliott> That would be cool btw.
18:48:19 <elliott> I say cool, I mean horrifying.
18:48:23 <elliott> Lovecraftian.
18:48:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Metatime is advanced with time travel.
18:48:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Isn't this just the standard "time changes have a timeline and so on recursively" thing?
18:48:43 <Phantom_Hoover> ANYWAY, you can factor time vs. reality destruction into this.
18:48:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, no recursion.
18:48:53 <oerjan> Vorpal: if you don't move along _their_ time dimension, they'll see a long rod appear and disappear...
18:48:54 <elliott> Well, standard in that I came up with it in about five seconds; maybe I'm just a genius.
18:49:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Has to have recursion, or you can't change the metatimeline properly.
18:49:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you can't change the metatimeline, that's the point.
18:49:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And if there's no recursion, it's not 2D. It's just two layers.
18:49:22 <elliott> Two lines, in other words.
18:49:32 <Phantom_Hoover> ...no?
18:49:36 <Vorpal> oerjan, I meant if I stand still (relative my own senses) I would still move along my own time axis. Which would be a space axis for everyone else. Right?
18:49:43 <elliott> Well.
18:49:44 <elliott> Sort of.
18:49:53 <Phantom_Hoover> (Metatime can be discrete as well, though.)
18:50:00 <Phantom_Hoover> (Not sure if that matters.)
18:50:31 <Phantom_Hoover> So destroying reality at a point in time cuts everything further along the time axis out.
18:50:54 <Zwaarddijk> hence, doomsday devices are practical for every serious timetraveler?
18:50:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Destroying time cuts off everything further along the metatime axis.
18:51:02 <Vorpal> oerjan, so then, lets say I "drift" sideways according to what I just said, what would happen if I bump into a wall due to using this switching gadget inside a room.
18:51:05 <oerjan> Vorpal: yes. but if you are not moving, then you are not moving along the dimension that everyone _else_ sees as time, so you would only briefly appear and disappear
18:51:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I FEEL FEYNMAN DIAGRAMS ARE RELEVANT HERE
18:51:32 <Vorpal> oerjan, I was rather wondering what would happen to me if I hit that wall
18:51:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit why can't I draw in 3D
18:51:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Or think in 4D
18:51:42 <Phantom_Hoover> CURSE YOU EVOLUTION
18:51:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I feel the same
18:51:54 <oerjan> Vorpal: i don't think physics has a ready-made explanation for this :D
18:52:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, right
18:52:09 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, also classical vs. quantum.
18:52:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Classical is nicer so just use that.
18:52:24 <Vorpal> maybe time would stop for me
18:52:45 <elliott> Gregor: Can you make a simple 3D scene of like a simple room and some sphere walking along it
18:52:50 <elliott> And then do the reorientation and make another video :P
18:52:57 <elliott> It would be Lovecraftian.
18:52:58 <Phantom_Hoover> No, you'd just... live sideways.
18:53:05 <Phantom_Hoover> For a fraction of a second.
18:53:07 <Vorpal> then this thing could be useful kind of. Put some hot food in the device, next to a wall. Perfectly preserved, and hot food, when you want it!
18:53:24 <Vorpal> of course, it would be in the wrong time for you hm
18:53:25 <elliott> (from the point of a still observer in both spaces)
18:53:29 <elliott> (i.e. still in time for the second)
18:53:35 <Gregor> elliott: That could be part of a series of "training videos" for the device, so you can understand how to comprehend reoriented spacetime >: )
18:53:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Like, you'd turn on the device, there'd be a 2D slice of Vorpal going right across the universe changing constantly so it'd be more like some kind of carrot.
18:53:51 <elliott> Gregor: This is seriously the stuff of nightmares.
18:54:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hah
18:54:10 <oerjan> you would essentially consist of tachyons during this...
18:54:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, nah, it's quite simple.
18:54:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wait...
18:54:24 <elliott> Even though you stayed still in time, you'd still be moving in space
18:54:24 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, with the imaginary mass and all?
18:54:25 <elliott> *space.
18:54:32 <Vorpal> oerjan, wait, aren't they fictional thingies?
18:54:36 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yeah, so the slice would zigzag.
18:54:41 <Gregor> Vorpal: They're immeasurable and unprovable.
18:54:43 <oerjan> Vorpal: they are _hypothetical_ thingies
18:54:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No. You'd literally cover an entire plane of the universe.
18:54:45 <elliott> I think.
18:54:47 <Vorpal> oerjan, ah
18:54:49 <elliott> Well.
18:54:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, you would.
18:54:52 <elliott> An entire... thick line.
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18:54:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: THAT IS SO WEIRD
18:55:00 <Phantom_Hoover> *AWESOME
18:55:10 <Gregor> elliott: If you don't remain reoriented forever, you would cover a limited space.
18:55:15 <Vorpal> elliott, how do you mean?
18:55:21 <elliott> Define "forever"
18:55:23 <elliott> And "remain"
18:55:28 -!- ZOMGMODULES has joined.
18:55:36 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: hi, we're discussing existential horrors.
18:55:43 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you turn the device on. A second later, you turn it off.
18:55:55 <Gregor> elliott: Presumably the machine will allow you to reorient yourself normally after some amount of time (space) spent reoriented.
18:56:00 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a you-shaped tunnel across a lightsecond of space lasting for a nanosecond.
18:56:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So, a (x|y|z)-second later
18:56:05 <elliott> Rather than a t-second later
18:56:05 <ZOMGMODULES> you do the hokey-pokey and you shake it all about
18:56:08 <elliott> t being the usual time action
18:56:11 <elliott> *axis
18:56:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, a few nanosecond.
18:56:16 <Phantom_Hoover> *nanoseconds
18:56:18 <elliott> Uhh, no nanoseconds.
18:56:20 <elliott> It would be one Planck time.
18:56:22 <elliott> Ohwait
18:56:25 <elliott> You're not infinitely thin
18:56:34 <elliott> So yeah, depends on the scale :P
18:56:35 <ZOMGMODULES> this doesn't sound that horror to me
18:56:40 <Phantom_Hoover> No, since it's the breadth of the area of effect over c.
18:56:43 <Gregor> It would be one your-thickness in seconds :P
18:56:47 <Gregor> We need a measure of meters per second.
18:56:48 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: <Gregor> CONSIDER: A machine that allows you to "reorient" yourself relative to the physical and temporal dimensions, so that one of the physical dimensions becomes time, and time is experienced as a physical dimension.
18:56:53 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: It's pretty horrific.
18:57:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, just use c to convert.
18:57:03 <ZOMGMODULES> Who's CONSIDER?
18:57:06 <oerjan> note that a second is a considerable distance if you use the c=1 convention
18:57:07 <elliott> Gregor: Let's just say that 1 second is 1 metre :P
18:57:18 <elliott> That's so totally unjustifiable, but convenient.
18:57:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Multiply times by c for distances, divide distances by c for times.
18:57:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, OK, that works too.
18:57:32 <elliott> IF WE SAY 1 SECOND IS 1 M WE CAN ACTUALLY MAKE A VIDEO OUT OF THIS
18:57:34 <elliott> Not if we use c :P
18:57:38 <elliott> *1 m
18:57:39 <Gregor> But lightspeed ends up with you in relativity hell ...
18:57:47 <elliott> Relativity Hell, the best kind of hell.
18:57:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, no, because you're dicking around with the fabric of space, not standard physics.
18:58:07 <elliott> I think I'm going to curl up in a ball and cry.
18:58:09 <ZOMGMODULES> so what direction does space move when it's time
18:58:21 <elliott> So, wait.
18:58:25 <elliott> Let's figure out a standard reorientation.
18:58:28 <Phantom_Hoover> It's basically lightspeed travel for you, teleportation for everyone else.
18:58:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, using c.
18:58:33 <elliott> When reoriented, what axis is time?
18:58:38 <elliott> In the normal universe, the time-axis is t.
18:58:40 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, device points forward.
18:58:45 <elliott> In the reoriented universe, the time-axis is (x|y|z).
18:58:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Time is flipped in that direction.
18:58:50 <ZOMGMODULES> time is forward, i like that
18:58:50 <elliott> Let's just pick one for convenience >_<
18:58:53 <ZOMGMODULES> OOPS
18:58:53 <Vorpal> one issue. Can one of you tell me where the current x axis points
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18:58:59 <elliott> ...
18:58:59 <Vorpal> in reality
18:59:00 <elliott> lol boss
18:59:04 <elliott> (I AM GUESSING)
18:59:12 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> GALILEAN INVARIANCE IS FOR PUSSIES
18:59:23 <elliott> Now there's a sentiment I can get behind
18:59:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, that's not really Galilean invariance, it's relativity.
18:59:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well it would kind of matter if you are trying to work out which plane you are spread out over as you said above
18:59:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I wish I could, like, draw with my brain.
19:00:22 <Phantom_Hoover> (BONUS OF THE VERSION WITH C AS THE CONVERSION FACTOR: you have FTL travel as a result.)
19:00:34 * Sgeo stabs Phantom_Hoover in the head
19:00:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Lovely.
19:00:46 <Sgeo> with a pencil
19:00:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly he went mad at our crazy physics skills.
19:00:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Thanks for the detail.
19:01:18 <Phantom_Hoover> (The FTL is like FTL in Freefall, though: from your perspective you travel at precisely c.)
19:01:23 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, you said you wanted to draw with your brain, didn't you?
19:01:35 <Phantom_Hoover> -_-
19:02:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Who wanted to draw it?
19:02:39 <Phantom_Hoover> (/animate/whatever)
19:03:20 <Gregor> Now that elliott mentioned it, I would like to make an animation of it :P
19:03:33 <elliott> With a raytracer would be ideal :P
19:03:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, right, OK, so:
19:03:44 <Gregor> But maybe an animation for a 3D (2 physical D + time) universe rather than 4D.
19:03:44 <Phantom_Hoover> You have a device which points forward.
19:03:45 <elliott> ALSO: Colour everything in the room uniquely.
19:03:49 <elliott> Reflect those colours in the reoriented universe.
19:03:55 <elliott> This is unrealistic, but waaay less of a pain to visualise.
19:03:57 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a 2x2x2m cube around if converted.
19:04:00 <elliott> (In reality, light would... what the fuck WOULD light do?)
19:04:01 <Phantom_Hoover> You have something inside.
19:04:02 <elliott> (I have no fucking idea.)
19:04:11 <Gregor> elliott: FUCKFUCKFUCKNO
19:04:14 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, this is Abstract Classical Space.
19:04:19 <Phantom_Hoover> It Just Works.
19:04:31 <elliott> Gregor: :D
19:04:35 <elliott> WHAT WOULD LIGHT DOOOOO
19:05:01 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, since this is Abstract Classical Space, you just magically perceive everything as it is.l
19:05:10 <Vorpal> elliott, as far as I remember, from the view of a photon, time stands still?
19:05:12 <elliott> I WANT TO KNOW WHAT IT WOULD DO IRL
19:05:37 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, IRL we don't actually know how the universe works so you can't, no.
19:05:47 <elliott> ...
19:05:53 <elliott> I'm just asking how light would move about in such a reorientation.
19:05:54 <Gregor> In the part of real life where you have a Gregor's Spaciotemporal Reorientation Machine
19:06:03 <elliott> i.e. what the fuck shit would look like.
19:06:09 <elliott> Just assume boring non-relativistic universe :P
19:06:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, atoms make no sense when flipped, so I have no idea.
19:06:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Assume it's done at the atom level >_<
19:06:37 <elliott> As in, atoms are left intact themselves.
19:06:41 <Phantom_Hoover> But is time continuous?
19:06:46 <Gregor> I'm pretty sure it's calculable, but not by our pathetic human minds.
19:06:50 <elliott> As continuous as matters
19:06:52 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:06:58 <elliott> (In the same sense that space is continuous)
19:07:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:07:15 <Gregor> I might actually /write/ a photon tracer to generate this scene, just to be able to follow photons in all four dimensions ...
19:07:32 <Sgeo> Do it! Do it1
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19:07:44 <elliott> Gregor: I approve so hard
19:07:56 <Gregor> Well, not tonight. OOPSLA deadline tonight :P
19:07:57 <elliott> Gregor: ...you know, this could make an AWESOME game premise.
19:08:05 <Gregor> *brain axplote*
19:08:05 <elliott> Design landscapes that are only partially navigable in a single orientation.
19:08:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, YES. YES IT COULD.
19:08:11 <elliott> And have full rotations, so it's not just two to pick from.
19:08:19 <elliott> I WANT TO PLAY THIS GAME RIGHT NOW
19:08:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, this is just Adanaxis with time.
19:08:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Gregor: WE HAVE TO MAKE IT FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
19:08:37 <Phantom_Hoover> HMM THAT ACTUALLY SOUNDS COOL
19:08:37 <elliott> NO it's better than that
19:08:41 <elliott> Adanaxis doesn't also rotate your VIEW
19:08:47 <elliott> And also it could be like a PLATFORMER
19:08:52 <elliott> So you could JUMP ... through TIME
19:09:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, OK, just have only 90° rotations in time.
19:10:12 <Gregor> Proposition: A game with this premise, but 2D space, just to make it a tidbit less OH GOD WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, or at least to make it more achievable in the short term :P
19:10:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, do you show the time dimension?
19:10:44 <elliott> Gregor: Well okay ;P
19:10:45 <elliott> *:P
19:10:57 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: When you've reoriented yourself in it.
19:10:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uhh, in normal play, the time dimension is shown by... time passing :P
19:10:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:11:05 <Gregor> Right.
19:11:06 -!- FireFly has joined.
19:11:07 <oerjan> <elliott> WHAT WOULD LIGHT DOOOOO <-- just use logic and the bible (John 8:12) to reduce this to "What would Jesus dooooo".
19:11:07 <elliott> OMGG
19:11:09 <elliott> The game needs enemies.
19:11:12 <elliott> That can also reorient.
19:11:21 <Gregor> elliott: ONE MIND-BOGGLING STEP AT A TIME
19:11:24 <elliott> You're fightin' something and suddenly it reorients and WHAT THE FUCK IS HAPPENING
19:11:35 <elliott> oerjan: logic and the bible, two great tastes that taste great together
19:11:52 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what if someone flies sideways to time for ages and ages.
19:11:57 <elliott> Gregor: Oh god we have to make this. This is an even better idea than Asteroids 2.
19:11:59 <Phantom_Hoover> You have to compute all that
19:12:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I DON'T KNOW, WHAT WOULD THAT EVEN IMPLY
19:12:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it implies you have a potentially infinite amount of processing for each interval of game time.
19:12:39 <Phantom_Hoover> It gets even *worse* if you reorient yourself.
19:12:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not if time and space are discrete.
19:12:46 <Gregor> On Saturday I will begin work on the engine. It's definitely doable, but not simple :P
19:12:59 <elliott> Oh, you mean, if something kept going in a direction forever?
19:13:07 <elliott> Well, just make the AI not do that X-D
19:13:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Great, my brain is starting to melt too.
19:13:20 <elliott> For a two-player game, just stop someone dwelling in reoriented-ville for too long.
19:13:24 <elliott> Gaah okay this is hurting my brain.
19:13:29 <elliott> Gregor: Just... do a photon tracer to start with X-D
19:13:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, elliott: this sounds a bit like TRDS for a game?
19:13:43 <elliott> Gregor: Let's figure out how this WORKS before trying to make a game engine that can do it :P
19:14:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Erm, hang on.
19:14:16 <Phantom_Hoover> What if you reorient your time direction to go backwards.
19:14:30 <elliott> what
19:14:41 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, just limit it to horizontal.
19:15:06 <oklopol> this concept is so done to death
19:15:10 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, RIGHT.
19:15:10 <Vorpal> what
19:15:16 <elliott> The problem is basically the same problem with every other time travelling game.
19:15:23 <oerjan> once you have backwards time things tend to get at _least_ PSPACE complete
19:15:25 <elliott> If someone (= an AI) goes back in time, you can't show that to someone who's already further on in time.
19:15:34 <elliott> So you have to... shove them back in time somehow.
19:15:35 <Vorpal> oerjan, wonderful
19:15:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I have some glimmerings of workability.
19:15:59 <oerjan> Vorpal: not for implementing it...
19:16:02 <Phantom_Hoover> DAMMIT WHY DO THESE THINGS ALWAYS HAPPEN THE DAY BEFORE I GO ON HOLIDAY
19:16:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: THINK ABOUT IT IN VENICE
19:16:30 <Phantom_Hoover> BUT YOU WON'T CARE WHEN I COME BACK.
19:16:30 <Vorpal> oerjan, duh, do you think I was serious?
19:16:58 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: omg it is _happening_...
19:17:04 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, if something goes back in time, shouldn't you have showed it the first time? Or it won't be logically consistent
19:17:07 <elliott> oerjan: wat
19:17:10 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, what?
19:17:27 <oerjan> <Vorpal> Perhaps I take myself a bit too seriously!
19:17:35 <oerjan> <Vorpal> oerjan, duh, do you think I was serious?
19:17:39 <oerjan> CLEARLY
19:17:53 <oerjan> EQUIVALENT
19:18:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, totally.
19:18:02 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, OK SO
19:18:03 <oklopol> Vorpal: if you go back in time, you will just be repeating what you already saw yourself do
19:18:10 <Phantom_Hoover> YOU HAVE A FINITE VIEWSCREEN
19:18:14 <oklopol> as usual
19:18:15 <Phantom_Hoover> 10x10 metres.
19:18:23 <Vorpal> oerjan, wait a second... How much of the time the past few years have you *not* realised when I joked?
19:18:25 <Phantom_Hoover> SO YOU ONLY NEED TO KNOW 10 SECONDS INTO THE FUTURE
19:18:34 <elliott> THAT MAKES IT SO MUCH EASIER
19:18:37 <Phantom_Hoover> (And the past, but that's not really all that important.)
19:18:39 <oerjan> Vorpal: everyone knows you never joke, sheesh
19:18:40 <elliott> Can we just talk about this in terms of blocks?
19:18:40 <elliott> Not metres?
19:18:43 <elliott> 10x10 blocks.
19:18:47 <elliott> One block is one second let's say for now.
19:18:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, OK.
19:18:55 <oklopol> so each game is 10 seconds?
19:18:57 <Vorpal> <oklopol> Vorpal: if you go back in time, you will just be repeating what you already saw yourself do <-- I meant if an enemy goes back in time, then the player should have seen that when he arrived at that time originally
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19:19:07 <Vorpal> which would require real world time travel
19:19:09 <elliott> clearly
19:19:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Erm, wait.
19:19:27 <Vorpal> elliott, actually, lets just use IOT to implement this
19:19:34 <elliott> Ideally, you should be able to run at one block per second :P
19:19:36 <elliott> SYMMETRY
19:19:37 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't see what you'll do in the future, so...
19:19:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah.
19:19:46 <Phantom_Hoover> This requires precognition.
19:19:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Or boring getout clauses.
19:19:57 <elliott> Gregor: DO NOT LISTEN TO PH
19:19:59 <elliott> PHOTON TRACER
19:20:00 <elliott> PHOTON TRACER
19:20:00 <elliott> PHOTON TRACER
19:20:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or making the player act in a sort of meta-time
19:20:21 <oerjan> IOT (ContT [])
19:20:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you still need precognition.
19:20:28 <elliott> SHUT
19:20:29 <elliott> THE FUCK
19:20:30 <elliott> UP
19:20:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, meta time for the player might work, no?
19:20:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Erm, wait, it might...
19:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover> BRAIN HURTING AGAIN.
19:21:07 <elliott> 1.34 MiB/s.
19:21:12 <elliott> IT ONLY LASTED FOR A SECOND
19:21:14 <elliott> BUT THAT SECOND WAS GLORIOUS
19:21:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, of course, you could argue that as well would be a getout clause.
19:21:27 <elliott> 1.77 :|
19:21:36 <elliott> like i'm in sweden--
19:21:53 <Vorpal> elliott, if that is download... common residential connections tend to burst a bit at the start sometimes
19:21:54 <elliott> Gregor: So btw, if you ever do something like http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, I'll rip your soul out
19:22:03 <elliott> Every pre-2011 clog link is now broken.
19:22:09 <elliott> And only accessible through a zip file linked to in the header.
19:22:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, right.
19:22:41 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, rsync reported it transferred a tiny file at 105 MByte/s, which is impossible since it was sent over 100 Mbit ethernet.
19:23:02 <Vorpal> elliott, probably due to NIC buffering
19:23:04 <Vorpal> or something
19:23:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Erm.
19:23:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Brain hurting again.
19:23:37 <Phantom_Hoover> (A 3D drawing board would really be nice now.)
19:24:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sounds like you need the Glove Box.
19:24:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, might be a bit hard to reach around in it
19:24:20 <Vorpal> elliott, what is that
19:25:17 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:25:25 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:25:59 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, precognition is necessary.
19:26:07 <Phantom_Hoover> UNLESS—erm, no.
19:26:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: SHADDAP
19:26:12 <elliott> oerjan: wow, you have an identd!
19:26:29 <oerjan> hm?
19:26:42 <elliott> (oerjan@
19:26:44 <elliott> not ~oerjan
19:26:45 <elliott> FANSCHY
19:27:11 <oerjan> ah.
19:27:53 <Gregor> elliott: If it's all database-oriented, then that makes no sense anyway.
19:28:02 <oerjan> well tyrell _is_ a multiuser machine.
19:28:09 <elliott> Gregor: ???
19:28:14 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, right.
19:28:18 <elliott> Gregor: But the URLs still matter :P
19:28:23 <elliott> As an interface.
19:28:25 <Gregor> elliott: Fair 'nuff.
19:28:57 <elliott> Gregor: I wonder if it's because clog is early-2000s technology and is running on a machine with a 1 gig disk :P
19:29:07 <Gregor> 8-D
19:29:10 <elliott> And the logs together are, like, 400 megs!
19:29:15 <elliott> (I figure #haskell is pretty high-traffic)
19:29:34 <Vorpal> elliott, come on. Even my first model ibook (early-2000s) had a whopping 3.2 GB HDD
19:29:45 <elliott> Gregor: btw I'm still doing ch2 stuff, just been "busy" past few days :P
19:30:02 <Gregor> elliott: Perfectly understandable, my typical impatience is tempered by my own deadlines.
19:30:04 <oerjan> 16:44:33: <Phantom_Hoover> OK GUYS I HAVE COME UP WITH MY PRETENTIOUS LATIN MOTTO
19:30:07 <oerjan> that is latin?
19:30:10 <oerjan> 16:44:47: <Phantom_Hoover> CIRCVMDOR IDIOTAM
19:30:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
19:30:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I think so, anyway.
19:30:31 <Gregor> Does it mean "I'm an idiot"?
19:30:36 <oerjan> oh wait DOR is passive of DO
19:31:21 <Gregor> <Phantom_Hoover> STULTUS EGO
19:32:32 <oerjan> "i am given around, an idiot"?
19:33:44 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, hmm, I mustn't have been thorough enough in checking which of the 15 or so words I found was equivalent to "surround".
19:34:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, of course, circumvenio.
19:34:18 <oerjan> actually i'm looking up circumdo now
19:34:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit I also forgot to pluralise "idiot".
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19:34:50 <oerjan> :D
19:34:51 <Gregor> Stultus ego ergo amo. <-- I am now officially a dramatic poet. Moneys plz kthx.
19:34:57 <Phantom_Hoover> "CIRCVMVENIOR IDIOTAS"
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19:35:10 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i vaguely recall it should be IDIOTIS
19:35:21 <elliott> what's amo
19:35:24 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, it's idiota, so I assumed it was first declension.
19:35:27 <oerjan> (ablative for the changed subject of a passive noun)
19:35:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, "I love".
19:35:30 <elliott> oh rite
19:35:34 <Phantom_Hoover> As in "amo amas amat".
19:35:38 <elliott> i'm an idiot so i love people?
19:35:43 <elliott> well, or just, so i love
19:35:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it may well be but it's not supposed to be accusative
19:35:54 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, ...it is?
19:35:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Erm, OK.
19:36:04 <oerjan> iirc, it's been a long time
19:36:27 <oerjan> note how it's not "I am surrounded idiots" in english either
19:36:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, OK.
19:36:49 <Gregor> It is if you just are surrounded idiots.
19:36:59 <Gregor> I, an individual, am a group of idiots who are surrounded.
19:36:59 <oerjan> Gregor: SOMEWHAT UNLIKELY
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19:37:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, OK, "CIRCVUMVENIOR IDIOTIS"
19:37:33 <Vorpal> Latin grammar looks HIGHLY complicated
19:37:36 <cpressey> now you need a crest
19:37:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, not really.
19:38:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the discussion above reminds me of that scene in Life of Brian...
19:38:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the whole "word order doesn't indicate structure" thing...
19:38:39 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: circumdo apparently also can mean surround
19:38:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, which sounds better.
19:39:51 <elliott> idiotis is a bad word
19:42:38 <Gregor> Google sez: "KNOW-NOTHING CIRCVUMVENIOR"
19:42:58 <elliott> X-D
19:43:08 <elliott> 19:33, 8 April 2011 Wizard191 (talk | contribs) marked Flash butt welding patrolled (automatic) ‎
19:43:10 <Gregor> Geeze Phantom_Hoover, you're such a know-nothing circumvenior.
19:45:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you need to find out what would be the idiomatic way to say it
19:47:05 <Gregor> *idiotomatic
19:47:06 * elliott tries to get Google to translate <I came_1, I saw, I came_2.> to Latin correctly
19:47:50 <oerjan> what are 1 and 2?
19:48:17 <Gregor> oerjan: You know what they are X-P
19:48:25 <oerjan> ...i suppose.
19:48:44 <oerjan> well I came_1 is "veni" as usual, i guess.
19:48:54 <oerjan> I saw is "vidi"
19:49:01 <elliott> Yeah, but all the things I can think of for _2 are passed through untranslated :P
19:49:14 <elliott> Weird, WordNet lacks the verb form of _2 but has the relevantnoun.
19:49:16 <elliott> *relevant noun.
19:49:32 <elliott> Unless it's just stated so euphemistically that I can't find it when scanning.
19:49:42 <Gregor> elliott: It passes through "orgasm" as something that translates back as something like "had joy" :(
19:49:45 <elliott> But then the noun definition uses "spermatozoa", so I don't expect so.
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19:50:22 <elliott> oerjan: what's the past tense of iaculemur?
19:50:26 <elliott> that might be the noun ejaculate, I suppose
19:50:30 <elliott> *noun "ejaculate"
19:50:58 <Gregor> elliott: Google suggests that it's literally "throw"
19:51:03 <elliott> X-D
19:51:19 <Phantom_Hoover> iacio?
19:51:21 <Gregor> The Romans, they did not speak of such things :P
19:51:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, that's just "throw".
19:51:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Figure it out or I'll have to trawl through and extensively quote dirty Latin poetry.
19:51:36 <elliott> Gregor: HA!
19:51:54 <elliott> Gregor: Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo.
19:52:00 <elliott> [etc.]
19:52:21 <elliott> Unfortunately that poem does not mention orgasming at all.
19:52:35 <oerjan> is iaculemur actually a word?
19:52:50 <Gregor> "stuff your gobs"...?
19:53:04 <elliott> Gregor: "I will sodomize you and face-fuck you"
19:53:15 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catullus_16
19:53:26 <Gregor> elliott: Google sez "I'll bugger you and stuff your gobs", which is right up 'til that 'and' :P
19:53:31 <elliott> Gregor: Best translation ever.
19:54:03 <oerjan> eiaculo is italian, but i'm not sure if it is latin...
19:54:16 <elliott> "This remarkable poem contains a cogent piece of literary criticism, bracketed between a shocking first and last line which you can translate for youself. (It's not that I shrink from obscenity, but you will have to substitute some substitute phrases in English to get the meaning right.) "
19:54:17 <elliott> Suuuure
19:54:19 <elliott> *)"
19:54:38 <elliott> not in boys, but in those hairy
19:54:38 <elliott> guys who have difficulty moving their limbs.
19:54:38 <elliott> --Google
19:54:47 <elliott> "difficulty moving my limb": best euphemism ever
19:54:53 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, oh, yeah, Catullus.
19:54:59 <elliott> http://rudy.negenborn.net/catullus/text2/e16.htm
19:55:00 <elliott> "I don't say in boys but in those hairy
19:55:00 <elliott> Victims of lumbar sclerosis."
19:55:05 <elliott> WORST TRANSLATION OF THAT LINE EVER
19:55:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Some of his mopier poems are in the Standard Grade Latin exam.
19:55:35 <Vorpal> elliott, you know how dwarf fortress does detailed combat reports? I found (I finally think I figured out the utterly complex military system) that it does the same for training (in case of sparring).
19:55:59 <elliott> BUT
19:56:01 <elliott> While googling for it
19:56:06 <elliott> I found this! http://is-is.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2334197912&topic=3371
19:56:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, "pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo" is now my favourite Latin phrase.
19:56:09 <elliott> SOMEONE TRANSLATE IT TO LATIN
19:56:10 <elliott> NOW
19:56:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is it your new motto?
19:56:23 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
19:56:24 <elliott> HOOVER HEAVY INDUSTRIES - "PEDICABO" EGO VOS ET IRRUMABO
19:56:27 <elliott> *move that quote
19:56:34 <elliott> <elliott> I found this! http://is-is.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2334197912&topic=3371
19:56:38 <elliott> GET TRANSLATING THE WORST THING EVER PEOPLE
19:56:44 <elliott> Also enjoy the Icelandic interface
19:56:49 <elliott> I don't know why Google found it with the Icelandic interface
19:56:52 <elliott> BUT THAT'S HOW IT IS
19:57:03 <Phantom_Hoover> "Latin is an exact language for obscene acts,"
19:57:06 <Phantom_Hoover> XD
19:57:26 <elliott> SRSLY THOUGH
19:57:36 <elliott> Someone translate came(v.) to Latin.
19:57:39 <Vorpal> "The Axe Lord hacks The militia captain in the left hand with her ≡steel battle axe≡, lightly tapping the target!" <-- this sounds a bit... strange.
19:58:17 <Vorpal> (come on, why don't they use the training weapons which made..., yes df has separate training weapons)
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19:59:28 <oerjan> <elliott> Someone translate came(v.) to Latin. <-- wiktionary claims a translation of cum -> eiaculare, but the latter has no latin in its page
19:59:45 <elliott> Ugh.
19:59:47 <elliott> Fucking Latin.
19:59:51 <Phantom_Hoover> "clintonize"
19:59:54 <elliott> ...
19:59:56 <elliott> ##latin
19:59:59 <elliott> LET'S DO THIS
19:59:59 <Gregor> *Pedicabo Latin
20:00:13 <oerjan> i suppose we could just assume it works as an ordinary -a verb, in which case it's eiaculavi
20:00:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: wait
20:00:20 <elliott> i'll write the message
20:00:29 <Gregor> I'm afeared :P
20:00:34 <elliott> "What's the Latin for came (past tense of verb, i.e. to ejaculate)?"
20:00:37 <elliott> DOES THAT LOOK GOOD
20:00:54 <Gregor> I would rephrase it to put the proper form first :P
20:01:02 <elliott> Gregor: You do it :P
20:01:05 <Gregor> NO U
20:01:10 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, erm, hang on, I'm trying to pluralise pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo.
20:01:11 <Gregor> I'm writing awesome games in my head!
20:01:14 <elliott> Gregor: I WANT to shock them half-way through!
20:01:20 <elliott> OH WELL HERE GOES
20:01:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, it is already plural
20:01:43 <elliott> Gregor: The very best entry in the REORIENT series will be the one where we take it to 4D.
20:01:45 <elliott> That is, 4D + time.
20:01:53 <elliott> With ANY rotation.
20:01:55 <Gregor> elliott: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
20:02:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: STOP RUINING IT
20:02:14 <Gregor> elliott: First goal: 2D+T, only X and T are reorientable, and only at 90
20:02:26 <elliott> Gregor: No, first goal: 3D+T, photon tracer :P
20:02:28 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:02:30 <elliott> -> Animation
20:02:40 <elliott> I don't think any of us understand this nearly enough to design a game yet X-D
20:02:41 <Gregor> elliott: That's, I think, even more of a PITA >_>
20:02:42 <oerjan> elliott: my best guess so far is "eiaculavi", anyhow
20:02:46 <Gregor> elliott: Err, that's true.
20:02:49 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, but it will be useful throughout :P
20:03:12 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gregor> elliott: First goal: 2D+T, only X and T are reorientable, and only at 90°
20:03:13 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
20:03:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Only to 90°.
20:03:25 <elliott> Indeed no, photon tracer :P
20:03:26 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a difference.
20:03:32 <elliott> Your mom is a difference.
20:03:38 <elliott> oh sckn444p
20:04:03 <oerjan> elliott: also that's using the same tense as veni and vidi from the other famous quotation, latin has a bit of a different division between the past tenses
20:04:11 <elliott> So what is sex in Latin? We could check on Vicipædia.
20:04:19 <elliott> ...oh god "vici"pædia
20:04:21 <elliott> worst pun ever
20:04:24 <oerjan> so that's actually perfect tense
20:04:32 <elliott> It's actually pronounced "Wikipedia" X-D
20:04:49 <elliott> oerjan: So "Veni, vidi, eiaculavi"?
20:05:15 <oklopol> i think eiaculavi is the first one
20:05:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Really, Catullus 16 is not very obscene :P
20:05:39 <oerjan> elliott: yeah
20:06:03 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, except the first and last lines.
20:06:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Mild :P
20:06:10 <oklopol> one of my guitar strings broke :(
20:06:23 <elliott> "Oh noes, you're going to have sex with me unconsensually!!!!!"
20:06:34 <elliott> There's not even any disembowelment.
20:06:42 <oerjan> it's probably the ancient latin equivalent of "fuck you assholes"
20:06:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Pfft.
20:06:48 <elliott> oerjan: again, mild
20:06:56 <elliott> <bAndie9100> elliott, do you mean 'venio 4' ?
20:06:59 <elliott> Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
20:07:00 <oerjan> elliott: i was trying to agree with you here
20:07:01 <elliott> Isn't that just "I came"
20:07:05 <elliott> Like
20:07:07 <elliott> erm
20:07:08 <elliott> *"came"
20:07:11 <elliott> In the very mundane sense
20:07:15 <oerjan> venio is "i come"
20:07:18 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, possible that Latin had the double meaning as well.
20:07:31 <Gregor> I doubt it.
20:07:35 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: darn how boring :D
20:07:37 <Gregor> AFAIK that's a recent phenomenon.
20:07:46 <Phantom_Hoover> venio (4) presumably meaning the 4th definition.
20:07:55 <elliott> I'm asking the question anyway, to serve as a... discrete... way of mentioning that I meant the other kind. :P
20:08:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Or... wait, that could just be the conjugation.
20:08:02 <elliott> Wow this is awkward 8-D
20:08:06 <elliott> *8D
20:08:09 <elliott> 8-D looks weird.
20:08:14 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Royal_Bank_of_Canada&diff=prev&oldid=423066518
20:08:22 <elliott> <elliott> bAndie9100: ah, does Latin have the same double-meaning?
20:08:22 <elliott> <bAndie9100> double meaning? what do you count?
20:08:24 <oerjan> yeah venio is 4th conjugation
20:08:25 <elliott> oerjan: uhh write my response for me
20:08:36 <Phantom_Hoover> That'll be it, then.
20:08:46 <elliott> I DID include "to ejaculate" in my original message :P
20:09:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: YOU'RE SO EMBARRASSING
20:09:16 <elliott> Find some way to pretend we didn't come from the same place.
20:09:27 <elliott> oerjan: mommy, PH is being awfully direct to strangers.
20:09:38 <Gregor> "EJACULATE, ORGASM, CUM! Pedicabo ergo SOMETHING!"
20:09:47 <elliott> Gregor: ...<3
20:09:54 <elliott> PEDICABO ERGO SOMETHING
20:09:56 <elliott> My new motto.
20:10:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: YOU SHUT THE POOR INNOCENT UP
20:10:20 <elliott> HE'S GOING TO KILL US FOR SHITTING ON HIS BEAUTIFUL LANGUAGE
20:10:40 <oerjan> elliott: tell him catullus already did that
20:10:53 <elliott> this is like going into #mozart
20:10:54 <elliott> and saying
20:10:55 <elliott> hey
20:11:00 <elliott> does anyone have a performance of Leck mich im Arsch
20:11:06 <oerjan> XD
20:11:46 <elliott> oerjan: if you join, #esotericers will have a critical mass in ##latin, and I won't be so scared!
20:11:53 <elliott> "I'll have you know I'm an OPERATOR in #esoteric!"
20:11:57 <elliott> "HOW DARE YOU SPEAK TO ME LIKE THAT'
20:11:59 <elliott> *"
20:12:03 -!- augur has joined.
20:12:25 <oerjan> elliott: but then _i_ would feel embarassed
20:12:35 <elliott> :D
20:12:39 <elliott> Wikipedia just gave me THE BEST BAND NAME: The Angry Young Popes
20:12:43 <elliott> "Example:
20:12:44 <elliott> Keep The Angry Young Popes are the best rock band in the world right now. – Superbestfan 02:02, 2 February 2002 (UTC)"
20:12:57 <oerjan> now what's _that_ in latin
20:12:57 <elliott> oerjan: just join and talk about something that _isn't_ coming
20:13:13 <elliott> "puer iratus popes"
20:13:14 <oerjan> ...i don't know enough latin to converse on that channel...
20:13:17 <elliott> Is "popes" wrong :P
20:13:19 <elliott> oerjan: Uhhh
20:13:24 <elliott> oerjan: You don't have to talk IN Latin X-D
20:13:32 <elliott> Or maybe you do!
20:13:33 <oerjan> hm iratus sounds right
20:13:48 <elliott> oerjan: join and ask what "Angry young popes" is in Latin
20:13:50 <elliott> FLAWLESS
20:14:00 <elliott> we get an answer, you save embarrassment!
20:14:08 <elliott> 19:21, 8 April 2011 Alexf (talk | contribs) blocked Poopfriedrice (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite ‎ ({{uw-uhblock}})
20:14:18 <oerjan> Irati juvenes papae maybe...
20:15:17 <oerjan> i'm not sure if i should use feminine suffixes because papa is -a stem or not because it's definitely a masculine referent but i lean toward the latter
20:16:21 <oerjan> ah wiktionary says masculine
20:17:12 <cpressey> there's a #mozart? disturbing
20:17:20 <oerjan> Irati iuvenes papae, then.
20:17:34 <elliott> cpressey: no
20:17:53 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:18:26 -!- elliott has joined.
20:18:51 <oerjan> (puer means boy, not young)
20:19:50 -!- elliott has set topic: An unusually not mephitic forum that catches sufficiently "Hello world. Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity." | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Some logs also available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
20:21:12 <oerjan> MEPHITICI NON SVMVS
20:21:20 <elliott> omg yes translate our four mottos into latin
20:21:24 <elliott> Catch sufficiently hello world.
20:21:27 <elliott> An unusually not mephitic forum.
20:21:30 <elliott> Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity.
20:21:31 <elliott> ^ latin nao
20:21:48 <oerjan> CARPE SUFFICIENTER AVE MUNDUS
20:21:50 <elliott> "capite satis salve mundi'?
20:21:52 <elliott> *mundi"
20:21:55 <elliott> oerjan: ah, thanks
20:21:59 <oerjan> oh wait
20:22:00 <elliott> satis is nicer, is that not valid there?
20:22:01 <oerjan> MUNDE
20:22:10 <oerjan> (should be vocative)
20:22:20 <oerjan> i don't know
20:22:23 <elliott> "Non solita mephitic forum." ;; well, someone has to translate mephitic :-D
20:22:35 <elliott> I guess "miasmic" would be the best path
20:22:44 <elliott> "Non noxia solita forum."?
20:22:59 <elliott> "Libenter clausum in soliditatem matrix" ;; this is probably so wrong
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20:23:24 <oerjan> elliott: looks like satis could work
20:23:28 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
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20:23:41 <oerjan> or wait hm
20:23:42 <elliott> oerjan: WELL START TRANSLATING THE MATRIX OF SOLIDITY LINE THEN ;D
20:23:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:23:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:24:00 <oerjan> yeah munde says wiktionary
20:24:09 <oerjan> argh
20:24:22 <oerjan> i never said i was good at latin vocabulary did i...
20:24:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: YOU HELP TOO
20:25:20 <oerjan> mephitic is already greco-latin, is it not?
20:25:34 <elliott> maybe
20:25:42 <elliott> mephitic or mephitical [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]. —adj. 1. poisonous; foul. 2. foul-smelling; putrid. [C17: from Late Latin mephīticus ...
20:25:51 <elliott> so, what's the adjective form of mephiticus
20:26:01 <cpressey> Vorpal: you're a language. http://code.google.com/p/vorpalcode/
20:26:01 <oerjan> it is an adjective
20:26:27 <oerjan> but to use with forum you should probably have -um
20:26:32 <elliott> http://www.joystiq.com/2011/01/20/xbox-live-indie-gems-vorpal/ also a bullet hell game
20:26:34 <elliott> thx google
20:27:25 <cpressey> Vorpal: your reference implementation is coded in C++
20:27:32 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VORPAL
20:27:43 -!- FireFly has joined.
20:28:01 <cpressey> Vorpal & Wabe
20:28:01 <cpressey> copyright 2008 - University of Canterbury
20:28:01 <cpressey> all rights reserved - do not distribute
20:28:08 <cpressey> ... alright ...
20:28:13 <elliott> Arvid Norlander likes to show people his "Vorpal blade" if you catch my drift
20:28:14 <oerjan> forum insolite non mephiticum
20:28:26 <elliott> http://vorpal.livejournal.com/878513.html ;; picture of vorpal
20:28:49 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:29:11 -!- augur has joined.
20:29:14 <elliott> http://vorpal.livejournal.com/profile
20:29:21 <elliott> I'm gay. I love looking at guys, but I'm not obsessed with that fact (it's just one aspect of my personality) and while a lot of my friends are gay, I'm not really part of the "gay community".
20:29:21 <elliott> [...]
20:29:21 <elliott> I love to flirt with cute boys. It's fun!
20:29:21 <elliott> I've been married to my hubby bonoboboy (Jeff) since May 2004, and no, it's not for the gay health insurance :D.
20:29:24 <elliott> oh wait
20:29:25 <elliott> I thought it said
20:29:26 <elliott> "I'm not gay"
20:29:31 <elliott> was gonna go on about how Vorpal was in denial and all
20:29:46 <elliott> it should be illegal to write things that my brain could insert the word "not" in
20:29:57 <Gregor> I see no denial there :P
20:30:10 <elliott> Gregor: I thought it said "I'm *not* gay" :P
20:30:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:30:35 <cpressey> Sgeo: please start being fascinated by the Vorpal language
20:30:45 <Sgeo> What's the Vorpal language?
20:31:02 <Gregor> "I'm not gay, but I love staring at guys. I'm not gay, but I love flirting with cute boys ... for fun! I'm not gay, but I've been married to Jeff for seven years (for the insurance)."
20:31:04 <cpressey> Sgeo: http://code.google.com/p/vorpalcode/
20:31:16 <elliott> cpressey: sgeo started liking falcon a while back
20:31:18 <elliott> did i mention?
20:31:29 <elliott> Gregor: "I'm not gay, but I'm a Republican!"
20:31:58 <Sgeo> Hey, it's fully possible for a guy to like guys and not be gay!
20:32:03 <cpressey> elliott: i remember
20:32:09 <cpressey> so falcon is a guy
20:32:19 <elliott> really? i don't recall telling you
20:32:20 <cpressey> and maude is a girl. this is eminently logical
20:32:23 <elliott> i guess you sensed it through the aether
20:32:30 <cpressey> i SEEM to remember
20:32:45 <Sgeo> I vaguely recall cpressey being here
20:32:46 <oerjan> bonoboboy _certainly_ doesn't sound gay either...
20:33:24 * Sgeo WTFs at Vorpalcode
20:33:45 <Sgeo> It lists goals... but um...none of those tell me what the damn thing actually is
20:34:20 <Sgeo> I can vaguely guess that it's for a language.. but have only a vague understanding of what that language is supposed to be like
20:34:28 <cpressey> woo, i built vorpal
20:34:29 <Sgeo> Event-driven OO
20:34:47 <Sgeo> Oh durh
20:34:56 <Sgeo> "Vorpal is a small scripting language written in C++"
20:35:02 <oerjan> libenter is an adverb not a verb...
20:35:23 <cpressey> woo, i ran the "memoized fibonacci" example
20:35:51 <cpressey> Sgeo: it feels like they're trying to do "Lua, but in C++"
20:35:58 <Sgeo> ...why?
20:36:03 <Gregor> Ohheywait, I can make it a raytracer instead of a photon tracer so long as I run time backwards.
20:36:22 <cpressey> Sgeo: BECAUSE WORLD NEEDS MORE LANGUAGES
20:36:24 <Gregor> That ENORMOUSLY simplifies the problem.
20:36:33 <cpressey> i guess
20:37:13 <cpressey> how do u open a pdf in leegnux
20:37:25 <Gregor> xdg-open <virtually any file you can imagine>
20:37:34 <elliott> `addquote <Gregor> Ohheywait, I can make it a raytracer instead of a photon tracer so long as I run time backwards.
20:37:37 <HackEgo> 354) <Gregor> Ohheywait, I can make it a raytracer instead of a photon tracer so long as I run time backwards.
20:37:43 <elliott> I hope that stripped out the control chars.
20:37:46 <oerjan> elliott: nope
20:37:51 <cpressey> Gregor: thx
20:37:51 <elliott> fuck
20:37:53 <elliott> fix it yourself
20:38:11 <Gregor> cpressey: Nobody seems to know about xdg-open for some reason :(
20:38:19 <elliott> i pronounce it gnome-open
20:38:23 <elliott> it's not as good as os x open though
20:38:29 <Vorpal> <elliott> Arvid Norlander likes to show people his "Vorpal blade" if you catch my drift <-- XD
20:38:36 <elliott> vorpal reminds me more of plof
20:38:37 <elliott> kinda
20:38:42 <cpressey> first 4 words in manual: "Vorpal is a embeddable
20:38:54 <elliott> o.f('test', 3).print()
20:38:54 <elliott> o['f']('test', 3).print()
20:38:55 <elliott> or js
20:38:56 <Gregor> cpressey: ENGLISH FAIL
20:39:04 * Sgeo wants to aembed something
20:39:15 <cpressey> Gregor: from the UNIVERSITY OF CANTERBURY
20:39:30 <Gregor> cpressey: Canterbury, Saudi Arabia
20:39:39 <Vorpal> cpressey, does that mean like lua? Or like bare bone C code? Very different meaning of embed there
20:39:55 <cpressey> "no operator precedence
20:40:06 <cpressey> sorry, i keep dropping my closequotes
20:40:16 <cpressey> Vorpal: like lua
20:40:45 <cpressey> also like lua in that their interpreter is small (ca. 3KLoc)... but it's in C++
20:40:58 <Vorpal> cpressey, "no operator precedence" works well in prefix/postfix (of course), but would be a PITA in infix
20:41:06 <cpressey> Vorpal: totally agreeds
20:41:28 <Gregor> Smalltalk has no operator precedence.
20:41:30 <cpressey> if you take away my operator precedence, just give me RPN or S-expression instead
20:41:32 <Vorpal> cpressey, err "agreeds"?
20:41:36 <cpressey> fine
20:41:36 <Gregor> IIRC, Haskell has no operator precedence.
20:41:37 <cpressey> *agreed
20:41:43 <elliott> Gregor: wrong
20:41:48 <elliott> it has a full precedence system
20:41:51 <elliott> and both associativities
20:42:01 <cpressey> and you can CUSTOMIZE it
20:42:03 <Vorpal> Gregor, pretty sure you don't need to write (5 * 4) + 2 in haskell...
20:42:24 <cpressey> er... can you change the precedence of built-in operators in haskell?
20:42:34 <cpressey> i know you can define it for ones you define
20:42:42 <elliott> um, "sort of."
20:42:59 <Gregor> What was I thinking about, not Haskell ...
20:43:08 <oklopol> <j
20:43:11 <oklopol> J
20:43:16 <Gregor> Well, anyway, in Smalltalk operators certainly have no precedence.
20:43:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:43:18 <Gregor> They're all L->R
20:43:21 <oklopol> easy to confuse those
20:43:23 <elliott> Gregor: indeed
20:43:31 <elliott> in J, everything is right-associative :D
20:43:55 <Vorpal> elliott, how do you wrote 2+5*4 in smalltalk then?
20:44:10 <Gregor> I think with Haskell I was thinking about "custom" operators maybe? Can't you name functions starting with symbols, then you don't need backticks to make them act as operators?
20:44:15 <Gregor> Surely those are all the same precedence?
20:44:17 <oklopol> in j, you write it as 2+5*4
20:44:43 <cpressey> Gregor: you can define the precedence of those when you define them
20:44:45 <cpressey> iirc
20:44:49 <Gregor> ... whoaaaaaaaaaaaaah
20:44:53 <Gregor> *mind blown*
20:44:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, what is so surprising about that?
20:45:01 <cpressey> i just remember "infixr" being a keyword
20:45:12 <Gregor> Vorpal: Nothing, in fact Plof can do that too, but still, *mind blown* :P
20:45:23 <Vorpal> Gregor, why
20:45:41 <cpressey> All of Vorpal's design goals boil down to "it's written in C++"
20:45:55 <Vorpal> cpressey, ouch. Well I have nothing to do with that language.
20:45:57 <cpressey> distinguishing-language-from-implementation fail
20:46:05 <oklopol> Gregor: it blows my mind that that blows your mind
20:46:26 <Gregor> Haskell is pure. Defining precedence order in a pure language without order of code loading mattering sounds like a complicated business, unless precedence is just some arbitrary integer.
20:46:41 <oklopol> ?
20:46:44 <Gregor> And if it's an arbitrary integer, then that means there's an implicit dependent type system that affects the semantic behavior of the code.
20:46:58 <oklopol> it doesn't sound at all complicated
20:47:11 <oklopol> maybe you're just very simple
20:47:47 <elliott> <Gregor> Haskell is pure. Defining precedence order in a pure language without order of code loading mattering sounds like a complicated business, unless precedence is just some arbitrary integer.
20:47:52 <elliott> It's an arbitrary integer.
20:47:53 <oklopol> what do you mean arbitrary integer, like calculated at runtime? :D
20:47:58 <elliott> And your line about "dependent type system" is incoherent.
20:48:04 <elliott> infixl 8 +
20:48:08 <oklopol> hey guess what language does that stuff all the time: J
20:48:11 <elliott> -- declares (+) to be left-associative, precedence 8
20:48:26 <elliott> <Gregor> I think with Haskell I was thinking about "custom" operators maybe? Can't you name functions starting with symbols, then you don't need backticks to make them act as operators?
20:48:26 <elliott> <Gregor> Surely those are all the same precedence?
20:48:28 <Vorpal> elliott, wait a second, don't you need () around that + ?
20:48:33 <elliott> all operators are that in Haskell, nothing "custom" about them
20:48:39 <elliott> infixr 3 +-//
20:48:43 <elliott> (+-//) :: A -> B -> C
20:48:46 <elliott> a +-// b = ...
20:48:57 <Gregor> elliott: infixl is a declaration, right, not an expression?
20:49:01 <elliott> Yes.
20:49:05 <Gregor> Erm, hence "declares" X-D
20:49:10 <elliott> Just like module declarations, class declarations, instance declarations, type signatures, ...
20:49:13 <Vorpal> elliott, be careful, so you don't blow Gregor's mind so far he can't find it again
20:49:16 <elliott> And the integer has to be a literal, obviously :P
20:49:23 <elliott> I think it's 0-9 or something.
20:49:33 <Vorpal> elliott, that's a pretty small range
20:49:36 <elliott> So that $ can be the top.
20:50:19 <elliott> Gregor: Do you find it... simple again? :P
20:50:23 <cpressey> why not... oh
20:50:31 <elliott> Gregor: Remember that all imports are processed first thing.
20:50:37 <cpressey> garbledgegarbledegabblegoo
20:50:44 <Vorpal> cpressey, what
20:50:45 <elliott> So whenever it's looking at code, Haskell knows all the signatures, fixities, classes, etc. in the current scope.
20:51:03 <elliott> And it processes the fixities before it looks at function bodies, IIRC.
20:51:28 <cpressey> Vorpal: Vorpal (the language) uses some ideas I had, but not exactly
20:51:47 <elliott> watch as i drive cpressey away
20:51:49 <elliott> hey cpressey
20:51:50 <elliott> apex
20:51:53 <Vorpal> cpressey, oh? I thought the only idea it had was being written in C++?
20:51:58 <Vorpal> elliott, ?
20:51:58 <elliott> * cpressey has quit
20:52:14 <oklopol> maybe cpressey once had the idea of writing something in C++
20:52:17 <oklopol> but not exactly
20:52:21 <Vorpal> XD
20:52:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought it was "BGP" that drove him away
20:52:49 <Vorpal> elliott, what is "apex"?
20:53:03 <Gregor> elliott: Right, so now the way that other code PARSES depends on a declaration.
20:53:25 <Vorpal> elliott, googling for it, it is everything from car rental in NZ to a night club in Washington...
20:53:29 <elliott> Gregor: Not really; it parses it into what's basically ([(Expr,Op)],Expr), IIRC
20:53:33 <elliott> And then sorts that out later.
20:53:41 <elliott> It's not really that complicated *shrug*
20:53:43 <elliott> And the benefits are obvious.
20:53:44 <oklopol> Gregor: how is that problematic?
20:53:50 <Gregor> It's not problematic, it's /surprising/.
20:54:10 <cpressey> Vorpal: the only design goals they state have to do with C++. for the design of the actual language, they chose things, without regard to any goal, I guess
20:54:11 <oklopol> not really, cise had a much more complicated parsing and it's even purer than haskell
20:54:18 <oerjan> <cpressey> er... can you change the precedence of built-in operators in haskell? <-- you can introduce a new operator with the same name and any precedence you want, as long as you hide the original one when importing.
20:54:19 <elliott> Gregor: Moar Haskell impurity: With Template Haskell, the syntactical structure of some code can depend on IO at compile time!!! 0mg!!!
20:54:25 <Vorpal> cpressey, okay, what sort of idea?
20:54:26 <oklopol> mainly because it doesn't exist.
20:54:28 <cpressey> the main thing is the "semi-implicit self" -- you say .foo to refer to a foo on self
20:54:40 <Vorpal> oklopol, can you replace (+) then?
20:54:44 <cpressey> but i discarded that after thinking about it for a while anyway :)
20:54:55 <oklopol> Vorpal: in cise?
20:55:05 <elliott> cpressey: aaaapeeeeeex
20:55:08 <Vorpal> oklopol, in haskell?
20:55:10 <elliott> come on get driven away geez
20:55:13 <Gregor> cpressey: That's not even semi-implicit, that's just having the null string as a contextual replacement for "this" :P
20:55:14 <cpressey> but it's not *that* bad an idea, if you don't like to declare locals
20:55:14 <Vorpal> elliott, what the heck is "apex"?
20:55:55 <cpressey> Gregor: true. Can I say "unobtrusive"? it's about the shortest explicit self you could have :)
20:56:13 <Vorpal> cpressey, there is a way to do shorter
20:56:16 <cpressey> maybe a convention like, lowercase -> local, uppercase -> member on self
20:56:31 * Sgeo watches dance-sorts
20:56:50 <Vorpal> cpressey, either what you just said, or having to do global:foo and local:foo and just foo for self
20:56:53 <elliott> <cpressey> maybe a convention like, lowercase -> local, uppercase -> member on self
20:56:54 <elliott> you mean
20:56:55 <elliott> like Ruby
20:56:56 <Vorpal> but that would be silly
20:57:02 <elliott> @foo == omg instance variable
20:57:02 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: do faq ft todo yow
20:57:03 <elliott> JUST
20:57:04 <elliott> SAYING
20:57:16 <elliott> ., @, mere bits off :)
20:57:31 <cpressey> elliott: but can you also say self@foo ?
20:57:42 <elliott> cpressey: all instance variables are private
20:57:55 <elliott> so, no
20:58:07 <elliott> (it could have syntax to do that, but it'd always have "self" in front, so what's the point)
20:58:22 <cpressey> so it seems a bit different
20:58:40 <cpressey> .foo == self['foo']
20:58:42 <cpressey> in Vorpal
20:58:46 <elliott> not really :) I mean, who would write "self.foo" if you have ".foo"?
20:58:49 <elliott> nobody
20:59:04 <cpressey> who would write "let in 3" in haskell?
20:59:12 <elliott> your mom
20:59:21 <Vorpal> cpressey, gah these highlights are getting annoying XD
20:59:24 <elliott> SO
20:59:24 <elliott> CPRESSEY
20:59:25 <elliott> APEX
20:59:28 <oerjan> <Gregor> Haskell is pure. Defining precedence order in a pure language without order of code loading mattering sounds like a complicated business [...] <-- you're actually correct, the haskell 98 standard defined things with precedence intertwined with parsing and this has unforeseen interactions (e.g. with indentation sensitivity) so that no compiler actually implements it properly. the latest revision has removed this wart by making precedence a stri
20:59:34 <Vorpal> elliott, almost as bad as in #nethack (the Vorpal Sword)
20:59:37 <cpressey> elliott: you keep saying that word.
20:59:39 <Vorpal> err
20:59:41 <elliott> oerjan: -ing?
20:59:44 <Vorpal> cpressey I meant
20:59:51 <Vorpal> elliott, WHAT IS APEX?
20:59:58 <elliott> cpressey: wow, you've managed to blank your mind already
21:00:01 <Vorpal> elliott, WHAT IS APEX?
21:00:01 <elliott> IMPRESSIVE , SIR !
21:00:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:00:32 <Vorpal> oerjan, that got cut off
21:00:39 <Vorpal> oerjan, "by making precedence a stri"
21:01:29 <elliott> ape -x
21:01:36 <Vorpal> elliott, WHAT IS APEX?
21:03:18 <cpressey> Vorpal: I will call the language "Vor'pal" hereinafter for your benefit. btw, I have to admire its design a little bit -- it's regular, if nothing else. But I'd have to reimplement it in a language that isn't crap before I'd feel alright playing with it.
21:03:23 <oerjan> <cpressey> who would write "let in 3" in haskell? <-- i suppose they allowed empty let blocks for easier automatic code generation or something
21:03:31 <cpressey> like C, or Haskell, or Scheme
21:03:42 <cpressey> oerjan: it's orthogonal!
21:03:46 <Vorpal> cpressey, heh
21:04:03 <oerjan> oh cutoff, [...] post-rest-of-parsing issue.
21:04:15 <elliott> cpressey: reimplement it in Vorpal!
21:04:16 <cpressey> does some bot here speak scheme?
21:04:22 <elliott> oerjan: "precedence a str"
21:04:24 <Vorpal> cpressey, I think some languages uses ' to mark a click sound. Please pronounce it that way if possible.
21:04:26 <elliott> cpressey: me
21:04:35 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:05:03 <cpressey> sudo apt-get install mit-scheme ::: After this operation, 19.8MB of additional disk space will be used.
21:05:06 <cpressey> Thanks, MIT.
21:05:20 <elliott> cpressey: try sisc
21:05:21 <cpressey> actually I have racket installed
21:05:24 <oerjan> (technically, the latest revision just settles on what the compilers already do)
21:05:25 <elliott> ew
21:05:30 <elliott> cpressey: you said *scheme* :)
21:05:46 <Vorpal> oerjan, you managed to get confused over WHERE the cut off was
21:05:47 <cpressey> Welcome to Racket v5.0.1.
21:05:47 <cpressey> > (let* () 5)
21:05:47 <cpressey> 5
21:05:47 <elliott> cpressey: scheme48 is also good
21:05:48 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `*'
21:05:54 <cpressey> oerjan: ^^^ that's why.
21:05:55 <elliott> cpressey: dude, that starts in racket mode
21:05:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, it was at "precedence a str" as elliott said
21:05:57 <Vorpal> and I said
21:06:01 <elliott> that's nothing to do with scheme
21:06:11 <cpressey> elliott: oh, so you think scheme will error on that?
21:06:24 <oerjan> <Vorpal> oerjan, "by making precedence a stri" <-- bah elliott made me think it cut off somewhere else... "making precedence a strictly post-rest-of-parsing issue."
21:06:27 <elliott> cpressey: Racket errors out on set-car!; I would not be surprised.
21:07:02 <Vorpal> oerjan, ah
21:07:15 <Vorpal> oerjan, you need a better client. One which splits lines
21:07:26 <cpressey> 1 ]=> (let* () 5)
21:07:26 <cpressey> ;Value: 5
21:07:28 <cpressey> happy?
21:07:33 <elliott> library syntax: (let <bindings> <body>)
21:07:33 <elliott> Syntax: <Bindings> should have the form
21:07:33 <elliott> ((<variable1> <init1>) ...),
21:07:33 <elliott> where each <init> is an expression, and <body> should be a sequence of one or more expressions. It is an error for a <variable> to appear more than once in the list of variables being bound.
21:07:40 <elliott> hmm, that's ambiguous
21:07:44 <elliott> I'd have to look up the definition of ...
21:07:54 <Deewiant> fizzie: You there?
21:08:34 <elliott> Deewiant: O_O
21:08:38 <elliott> Lurker.
21:09:58 <oerjan> Gregor: one more thing, functions put in backticks can also have their precedence declared, the canonical examples being `div` and `mod` (same fixity as /)
21:10:42 -!- cheater99 has joined.
21:10:59 <elliott> wait they can?
21:10:59 <elliott> :D
21:11:01 <elliott> i didn't know that
21:11:03 <elliott> that's perverse
21:11:04 <oerjan> yes
21:11:19 <oklopol> you didn't know that? why would you ever assume anything else?
21:11:35 <Vorpal> elliott, btw did you know in df, you can make dwarfs engrave walls and floors to increase the value of a room? It generates a procedural description of the engraving based on the world history. Masterful engravings will be entered in history. Sometimes you can get thing like an engraving depicting another engraving, depicting a third engraving XD
21:11:59 <elliott> oklopol: because `` feels like a magical operator-making thing
21:12:02 <elliott> like
21:12:03 <elliott> making
21:12:06 <elliott> not looking at existing
21:12:06 <elliott> dfgfj
21:12:21 <oklopol> i guess it has a magical feel to it
21:12:38 <cpressey> everything is magical to you people
21:13:33 <oerjan> > let (+) = 3; f = (Prelude.+) in (+) `f` (+)
21:13:34 <lambdabot> 6
21:14:04 <oerjan> they're almost completely interchangabel
21:14:08 <oerjan> *le
21:15:16 <cpressey> i think i have another pixley-like language which is different
21:15:23 <elliott> what would be awesome is
21:15:25 <elliott> a = b
21:15:29 <elliott> a inherited bs fixities and things
21:15:38 <elliott> cpressey: i was trying to beat pixley's size
21:15:38 <elliott> but it was hard
21:15:48 <elliott> that is, smallest self-interp subset of shceme
21:15:49 <cpressey> it would be, yes
21:15:49 <elliott> scheme
21:16:11 <cpressey> there's a reason it defines cadr, for example :)
21:16:27 <cpressey> you'd think, oh, you can just do that with car and cdr
21:16:49 <cpressey> but then you see how many times the self-interpreter uses cadr...
21:17:07 <cpressey> but i don't think there's a competition
21:17:09 <cpressey> unless there is
21:17:34 <oerjan> :t first
21:17:36 <lambdabot> forall (a :: * -> * -> *) b c d. (Arrow a) => a b c -> a (b, d) (c, d)
21:17:45 <cpressey> but my new language isn't a scheme subset, its forms are just kind of similar to pixley's
21:17:50 <oerjan> hmph
21:18:38 <elliott> cpressey: well *I* was competing :)
21:20:25 <oerjan> cadr is something of a symptom of not having short pattern matching like haskell
21:21:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, sorta.
21:21:26 <Deewiant> fizzie: I mailed you already
21:21:33 <dbc> Ha, I read "I was trying to beat pixley's size" as "I was trying to beat pixley's wife"
21:21:34 <Deewiant> Feel free to respond here.
21:21:50 <elliott> dbc: oh god do you guys read this thing all the time
21:21:57 <oerjan> the enigma speaks!
21:22:03 <elliott> Deewiant: fizzie: You guys are talking about that COMPETITION
21:22:24 <dbc> No, usually only when I notice that I've been mentioned recently.
21:22:26 <fizzie> Deewiant: I guess I can swipe it in, the tournament's going to take ages(tm) anyway since I'm running them on kosh.
21:22:39 <Deewiant> fizzie: Cheers
21:22:56 <Deewiant> I still recommend Triton ;-)
21:23:01 <elliott> dbc dbc dbc
21:23:29 <dbc> Yes yes, fine tradition of Pazuzu, Hastur, etc., uh huh
21:23:54 <oerjan> a bit hard on the pronunciation though
21:24:48 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yeah, well... you're not on the course channel, you haven't heard the latest kosh troubles. The silly thing has a nproc soft/hard limit of 128/256 (from /etc/security/limits.conf), and since that thing on Linux counts threads, and the OpenJDK VM has all kinds of silly internal garbage-collection threads 'n such, I can manage to run a total of two (2) simultaneous games at the moment.
21:25:18 <cpressey> oh, and I forgot I had chibi-scheme installed, too:
21:25:19 <cpressey> > (let* () 5)
21:25:19 <cpressey> 5
21:25:20 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `*'
21:25:39 <Deewiant> fizzie: Oh right, I meant to join that around now.
21:25:56 <Deewiant> fizzie: Do you need to use OpenJDK? :-P
21:26:21 <fizzie> Deewiant: I'm hoping next week someone's going to relax those limits for me a bit. They already threw away the 20 GB address space hard-ulimit which caused plain "java" to not work (but which didn't affect me any, since java -Xmx256M runs with no problems with the 20G address space limit in place, and it's per-process, not per-user); then I guess they skipped out early for some Friday celebrations, so I haven't gotten any replies to my "excuse me but it's this
21:26:21 <fizzie> other limit that's the problem" emails.
21:26:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's either that, Sun's runtime which is probably pretty much identical, or some sort of gcj-driven thing... anyway, I already announcered OpenJDK as the "official" platform a while ago.
21:27:25 <elliott> gcj sounds like a good idea
21:27:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: There's an on-channel thing that announces when games start/end, incidentally. But you're probably going to have to wait a while until you see any announcements. :p
21:27:49 <elliott> WHICH CHANNEL WHICH CHANNEL ZOMGGGG
21:27:57 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yeah, that was kind of why I was intending to join
21:28:04 <Deewiant> Statistics for the win and all that.
21:28:12 <fizzie> elliott: It's on the course page in our courseware bortal site, you can find it there.
21:28:19 <fizzie> (It's also in the ircnet side of the fence.)
21:28:21 <elliott> IS THAT AN INTRANET SITE
21:28:59 <fizzie> (Away some momentsies.)
21:29:36 <elliott> I do not appear to bea ble to log on to this IRC NET
21:29:41 <elliott> *be able
21:29:42 <elliott> How odd.
21:31:10 <elliott> AHA
21:31:14 <elliott> Now to find the channel.
21:31:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:31:26 <elliott> [ATTEMPT 1]
21:31:28 <dbc> I heard Richard Stallman talk yesterday. I agree with him but he definitely comes off as an ideologue. I kept thinking he would be more persuasive if he were more nuanced. Dunno.
21:31:29 <elliott> Deewiant: What's the channel called?
21:31:49 <Phantom_Hoover> dbc speaks!
21:31:50 <Deewiant> Ask fizzie not me
21:31:52 <elliott> dbc: rms' lack of nuance is the reason for both his fame and status as a laughing stock :P
21:32:08 <dbc> (I mean, I knew he came off as an ideologue from reading his numerous things online, I just didn't know if he'd be the same in person)
21:32:16 <dbc> (answer: yes)
21:32:47 <elliott> dbc: IIRC he has like three speeches that he's given repeatedly for the past N years :P
21:34:16 <oklopol> is one of them called free the software
21:34:27 <oklopol> because i saw that on youtube
21:34:28 <elliott> JOIN US NOW AND SHARE THE SOFTWARE
21:34:33 <elliott> YOU'LL BE FREE, HACKERS, YOU'LL BE FREEEEEE
21:34:50 <cpressey> IF YOU AGREE WITH THE IDEOLOGUE THEN YOU MUST AGREE WITH THE IDEOLOGUE
21:34:51 <dbc> At the end he was talking about what the public schools need to do to respect the kids's freedom and teach them to value their own freedom and help them grow up to be good citizens. And I was wondering where he got the idea that the schools were vaguely interested in doing any of those things.
21:35:40 <dbc> He should read some John Gatto or something.
21:35:51 <Phantom_Hoover> dbc, I heard he has been known to pick his toes during interviews.
21:36:19 <elliott> And eat the remains.
21:36:23 <elliott> There is videographic evidence of this.
21:37:09 <oklopol> well i occasionally suck on my toes
21:37:23 <dbc> (anyone want to guess what he thinks the schools should do?)
21:37:33 <oklopol> dbc: kill the weak ones
21:37:59 <elliott> dbc: put them through extreme mental and physical torture
21:38:07 <cpressey> hah, I finally found Racket's R5RS intepreter: 'plt-r5rs'
21:38:14 <dbc> five seconds left.
21:38:16 <cpressey> and it does the usual
21:38:22 <elliott> dbc: um
21:38:25 <dbc> They should use free software and only free software.
21:38:25 <cpressey> dbc: who, Gatto?
21:38:31 <elliott> oh
21:38:31 <cpressey> oh
21:38:32 <elliott> :D
21:38:34 <cpressey> :D
21:38:35 <dbc> No, Stallman :PPP
21:38:49 <oklopol> dbc: maybe even FORCE them to use only free softwar?
21:38:51 <oklopol> *software
21:38:54 <elliott> i'm actually grinning after a :D
21:38:54 <elliott> that's rare
21:39:02 <oklopol> that would teach them freedom whether they like it or not
21:39:05 <elliott> it warms my heart that there are people as pure and stupid as rms in the world :)
21:39:08 <elliott> oklopol: lol
21:39:10 <Gregor> dbc: ... where (region) are you?
21:39:13 <elliott> SHUT UP! IT'S FOR YOUR FREEDOM!
21:39:15 <oklopol> and what do those little retards know anyway
21:39:19 <dbc> Portland Oregon USA.
21:39:22 <Gregor> KNEW IT
21:39:25 <elliott> "But I don't *want* any freedom!" "YOU DON'T HAVE ANY CHOICE!"
21:39:26 <oklopol> i knew it too
21:39:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:39:38 <oklopol> actually i had no idea
21:39:43 <Gregor> A Portland friend of mine told me that a friend of HIS had arranged for RMS to come to PSU :P
21:39:54 <elliott> Gregor: SO WE KNOW WHO TO BLAME
21:40:02 <Gregor> Yes, a friend of a friend of mine!
21:40:20 <elliott> So reduce the stack a bit, and: you.
21:40:23 <elliott> We will lynch you.
21:42:49 <cpressey> There's a plt-r6rs too, but it... doesn't have... a REPL.
21:42:50 <cpressey> cpressey@pressey:~/checkout$ plt-r6rs test.scm
21:42:50 <cpressey> test.scm:1:0: top-level-program: expected an `import' declaration, found something else in: (display (let* () 5))
21:42:59 <cpressey> So
21:43:03 <cpressey> I see Scheme is dead now...
21:43:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:44:45 <elliott> cpressey: wat?
21:44:56 <elliott> why are you using r6rs
21:45:00 <elliott> r6rs specifically forbids REPLs, IIRC
21:45:21 <cpressey> elliott: I just wanted to see if empty let bindings was kosher there.
21:45:29 <cpressey> it... specifically...
21:45:40 <cpressey> *blink*
21:45:57 <cpressey> come again?
21:46:00 <coppro> link
21:47:28 <cpressey> holy cow you're right
21:47:30 <cpressey> Interactions disabled: r6rs does not support a REPL (no #%top-interaction)
21:47:42 <cpressey> I stand by my observation that Scheme is dead.
21:47:48 <elliott> coppro: the entire semantics are defined in terms of things that make no sense in the concept of repls, IIRC
21:47:51 <elliott> there was lots of flaming about it
21:48:09 <cheater99> * Now talking on #%top-interaction
21:48:15 <elliott> i think there are r6rs repls, but they essentially define their own program semantics
21:48:41 <dbc> Anyway! Going to make maybe French toast. See you.
21:49:00 <elliott> french toast is wonderful
21:49:00 <cpressey> BYE dbc WE'LL BE SURE TO ACCIDENTALLY MENTION YOUR NICK OFTEN
21:49:01 <cheater99> mmm
21:49:04 <cheater99> yummy cya
21:49:13 <elliott> who? dbc?
21:51:02 <cpressey> arg, the hello world site doesn't even specify a version of Scheme that their Scheme "hello world" is in
21:51:13 <cpressey> NOT R6RS IS ALL I CAN TELL YA
21:51:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:52:46 <cpressey> so, how long will it take me to find a R6RS "hello world"? Rosetta code doesn't have one, either
21:55:13 <oerjan> `addquote <cpressey> BYE dbc WE'LL BE SURE TO ACCIDENTALLY MENTION YOUR NICK OFTEN
21:55:15 <HackEgo> 355) <cpressey> BYE dbc WE'LL BE SURE TO ACCIDENTALLY MENTION YOUR NICK OFTEN
21:55:24 <oerjan> AND HackEgo WILL HELP
21:58:46 <cpressey> #lang r6rs
21:58:47 <cpressey> (import (rnrs base) (rnrs io simple)) (display "hello world")
21:59:09 <cpressey> Right, so, they're slowly turning it into Java. Good for them!
21:59:20 <elliott> first line is racket specific btw
21:59:27 <cpressey> yeah
22:00:16 <cpressey> and you can leave out (rnrs base) apparently
22:00:48 <cpressey> at any rate, I had read the spec to come up with that
22:01:53 <cpressey> oh right there was a reason i was doing this
22:02:34 <cpressey> (import (rnrs base) (rnrs io simple)) (display (let* () 5)) -----> 5
22:02:48 <elliott> what impl?
22:02:51 <elliott> i wouldn't trust racket :)
22:02:56 <elliott> larceny maybe
22:02:58 <cpressey> Racket, yeah.
22:03:06 <cpressey> btw u need base for let*, HAR
22:04:16 <cpressey> and for let
22:04:28 <cpressey> which produces the same result as let* in every impl i've tried so far
22:04:47 <elliott> the spec is ambiguous IMO
22:04:51 <elliott> depends on how you interpret ...
22:06:05 <cheater99> elliott: why can't you be elliottt
22:06:08 <cheater99> WHY??
22:06:49 <cpressey> so, the current hot application area for R6RS: video pinball! http://www.littlewingpinball.com/doc/en/ypsilon/index.html
22:08:11 <cpressey> dear god i can't even get drracket to close
22:11:02 <cpressey> I would personally interpret the example (foo ...) as meaning "one or more occurrences of foo", but whadduino
22:11:21 <cheater99> is a whadduino like an arduino
22:11:29 <cheater99> except whadded?
22:11:30 <Gregor> Is Ypsilon real-time in the actual, strict sense of real-time, or is it real-time in the sense of "fast enough"?
22:11:44 <cheater99> Gregor: i think you mean "interactive" or "online"
22:11:45 <cpressey> Gregor: well it's Scheme, so...
22:11:45 <elliott> It's real-time as in game real-time :P
22:12:12 <Gregor> cpressey: My university has a big project on real-time Java. In the real sense of real-time. So anything is possible.
22:12:22 <Gregor> cheater99: No, I mean neither. Neither of those are real-time.
22:12:32 <elliott> trolololol
22:12:33 <cpressey> Gregor: your university is a university. This is some Japanese guy who really likes video pinball.
22:12:51 <cheater99> i thought "fast enough" was opposed to real-time in your sentence.
22:13:01 <Gregor> cheater99: Real-time means that you can statically guarantee timing properties of the program.
22:13:09 <cpressey> curse those Erlang knaves for popularizing "soft real-time"
22:13:10 <cheater99> Gregor: really????
22:13:24 <cpressey> cheater99: technically, yes, when people aren't abusing the term
22:13:37 <Gregor> cheater99: Yes [caveats: On a certain OS, on a certain piece of hardware, all the way down]
22:13:50 <elliott> TROLOLOLOLOL
22:13:54 <cheater99> that totally surprised me, i always thought that "real-time" was a brand of toothpaste :|
22:14:09 <oklopol> no real-time is the REAL DEAL
22:14:15 <elliott> cpressey: i think soft real-time predates erlang :P
22:14:20 <Gregor> Real-time is what you need to be to run on an airplane.
22:14:34 * oerjan swats cheater99 -----###
22:14:39 <cheater99> oerjan: :D
22:14:39 <cpressey> elliott: did I say they invented it?
22:14:48 <elliott> i mean
22:14:50 <elliott> its popularity
22:14:51 <elliott> predates
22:14:51 <elliott> i think
22:14:57 <elliott> oerjan: swat harder
22:15:00 <oklopol> so about those real-time systems, why can't my os be one of those
22:15:00 <cheater99> Gregor: i know what "real-time" is. you didn't have to tell me that.
22:15:09 <elliott> oklopol: *your* OS *can* be!
22:15:18 <cheater99> Gregor: if you didn't get it, i was being sarcastic.
22:15:18 <oklopol> :DS
22:15:39 <Gregor> cheater99: I EAT BABIES.
22:15:41 <oklopol> i didn't get it
22:15:49 <cheater99> Gregor: you monster!
22:15:54 <Gregor> cheater99: NOM NOM NOM
22:16:01 <oklopol> i did get that you didn't actually think real-time was a brand of toothpaste though
22:16:15 <oklopol> and i only eat babies if they are already dead by the time i find them
22:16:19 * cheater99 gives Gregor some woucester sauce.
22:16:37 <cheater99> oklopol: have you played penumbra :D
22:16:44 <oklopol> no what's that
22:16:47 <cheater99> it's a game
22:16:50 <cpressey> bah I need a scheme to build Larceny
22:16:52 <cheater99> there's a comment there similar to this
22:16:55 <oklopol> oh i thought it was a brand of toothpaste
22:17:00 <cheater99> no it's a game
22:17:07 <oklopol> okay
22:17:10 <cpressey> ok so like I have like a dozen schemes installed at this point but that's beside the fact
22:17:10 <cheater99> and there's not one tub of toothpaste in it. play it.
22:17:16 <cheater99> it's really good.
22:17:20 <elliott> cpressey: you must really hate building ghc
22:17:22 <oklopol> penumbra
22:17:33 <elliott> Larceny compiles directly to native machine code for the Intel IA32 or SPARC architectures.
22:17:33 <elliott> Petit Larceny is a portable implementation that compiles to C instead of machine code.
22:17:33 <elliott> Common Larceny runs in the Common Language Runtime (CLR) of Microsoft .NET, generating IL, which is JIT-compiled to native machine code by the CLR.
22:17:36 <elliott> eagerly awaiting Garden Larceny
22:18:36 <cheater99> so who here has programmed anything in NaCl?
22:18:48 <elliott> fizzie: WHAT IST IRC
22:18:53 <cpressey> elliott: dear god dear god yes.
22:18:59 <elliott> oh! wait!
22:19:10 <elliott> * [fizzie] @!NDQJMt934400 #douglasadams @#irtie #!/usr/bin/ff @#getnolife
22:19:12 <elliott> I BET IT'S THE FIRST ONE
22:19:21 <Sgeo> The humans are dead..
22:19:40 <elliott> HA
22:19:50 <elliott> Does IRCnet not have +i? :-)
22:20:18 <cheater99> lol @ ircnet
22:20:29 <cpressey> aaaaand larceny accepts (let* () 5).
22:20:36 <elliott> <elliott> hyvä kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen
22:20:38 <elliott> finnish works this way
22:20:55 <elliott> haha, this is kind of wrong though, like kicking a dog :/
22:20:58 <elliott> a dog with a ridiculous language
22:21:33 <cpressey> cheater99: OMG THAT'S TABLE SALT
22:21:52 <cheater99> cpressey: NO!
22:21:59 <cpressey> well, yes it is.
22:22:09 <cheater99> cpressey: shocking!
22:22:46 <cheater99> cpressey: it's also a sort of asm-like language that google is pushing.
22:22:58 <cpressey> ypsilon gives me an R6RS REPL. RACY.
22:23:14 <cheater99> it's actually just asm, with some special things that the static analyzer needs to validate it against.
22:23:15 <cpressey> Aaaaand it too believes (let* () 5) is perfectly valid and means 5.
22:23:38 <cpressey> typed assembly language, huh
22:23:42 <elliott> cpressey has this nice new life goal
22:23:42 <cheater99> nah
22:23:45 <elliott> it's cute
22:23:53 <elliott> he'll never stop until he's evaluated that expression in every scheme implementation ever
22:24:03 <cheater99> it just analyzes whether it calls any functions it's not allowed to, that's all
22:24:20 <cpressey> that's a sort of type system
22:24:30 <cheater99> yeah, there are two types
22:24:41 <cheater99> the type of person who thinks it's a typed system, and the type who doesn't
22:25:02 <elliott> `quote solidity
22:25:05 <HackEgo> 330) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
22:25:16 <cpressey> is that where that came from?
22:25:21 <elliott> yes
22:25:43 <elliott> previously they asked if anyone in here was Rosicrucian
22:25:47 <oklopol> is that some real thing though?
22:25:58 <oklopol> also there's some sort of rave going on upstairs
22:26:03 <cheater99> gaggle it and you'll know
22:26:10 <elliott> 13:17:08 <Phantom_Hoover> treederwright, what're the dimensions of the matrix of solidity?
22:26:10 <elliott> 13:18:01 <pikhq> Is the matrix of solidity square? Is it invertible?
22:26:14 <oklopol> maybe i should go there naked and yell "orgy time!"
22:26:16 <elliott> these questions were never answered.
22:26:23 <cheater99> oklopol: same here, but downstairs
22:26:27 <cheater99> they had a tango festival
22:31:26 <cpressey> the zodiac
22:31:33 <elliott> 13:41:24 <oklopol> shit has no value and thus doesn't lose any, is useful for getting rid off and can be small. it's not highly valuable though.
22:31:54 <cpressey> `quote odiac
22:31:56 <HackEgo> No output.
22:32:34 <cpressey> "X has no value" -> "X is not highly valuable"
22:32:37 <cpressey> VALID INFERENCE
22:32:57 <elliott> 13:47:05 <oklopol> are rodeos built out of rhodium
22:32:58 <elliott> 13:47:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes. Yes they are.
22:32:58 <elliott> 13:47:16 <Phantom_Hoover> So is Rhodew.
22:32:58 <elliott> 13:47:19 <Phantom_Hoover> *Rhodes
22:32:58 <elliott> 13:47:26 <oklopol> this all makes sense.
22:32:58 <elliott> 13:47:30 <oklopol> maybe i can learn more tomorrow ->
22:33:32 <oklopol> i wonder if i did
22:34:18 <elliott> you learn something new every day, oklopol.
22:34:26 <elliott> so hey oklopol, ircnet !NDQJMt934400
22:34:28 <elliott> be there or be oblong
22:34:37 <elliott> it's a party
22:34:53 <cpressey> i will soon have a strongly typed scheme-let which isn't actually too very much like scheme, unless i get bored with this and decide to think about something else
22:34:58 <cpressey> GOOD NIGHT, GENTLE FOLK
22:34:59 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:35:17 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:35:54 <elliott> come now oklopol
22:35:57 <elliott> :|
22:36:02 -!- wareya has joined.
22:36:26 <elliott> fizzie:
22:36:26 <oklopol> takes sorta long to get accepted to ircnet
22:36:27 <elliott> The book:
22:36:28 <elliott> Stuart Russel, Peter Norvig.
22:36:28 <elliott> Artificial Intelligence: the Modern Approach.
22:36:34 <elliott> fizzie: this should be "Russell", "A Modern"
22:36:36 <elliott> (https://noppa.tkk.fi/noppa/kurssi/t-93.4400/summary_in_english)
22:36:40 <elliott> YW
22:36:47 <oklopol> they're singing "we're not gonna take it"
22:36:52 <oklopol> i can clearly hear the lyrics
22:37:06 <oklopol> i should probably stop watching pig porn with full volume
22:37:08 <elliott> oklopol: well i just wished that channel a good kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen, i think however that it is much better now that you are there
22:40:10 <oklopol> sadly it's not aurinkoloistamassataivaalla-aika right now so no one's talking
22:40:10 <oklopol> wait
22:40:13 <oklopol> no someone talked
22:41:53 <elliott> fizzie: boring!
22:42:09 <elliott> oklopol: speak some fake polysynthetic-finnish, we'll convince everyone we're brothers
22:42:17 <elliott> or just start okoing :D
22:42:24 <oklopol> i'd never do something that childish
22:42:28 <elliott> indeed. never.
22:42:58 <oklopol> which reminds me, should prolly take pikhq off ignore
22:43:23 <elliott> why was he on ignore
22:43:34 <oklopol> he told me i know less math than the egyptians
22:43:53 <oklopol> i found it a huge insult
22:44:18 <elliott> when was that
22:44:19 <elliott> 2008?
22:44:35 <oklopol> i dunno, anything between 3 days and 3 months ago
22:45:45 <oklopol> i bet my guitar amp could outloud those party dudes
22:52:19 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:52:56 <tswett> elliott: say, you don't happen to want normish.org, do you?
22:53:08 <zzo38> It is good to keep both logs in case one is broke
22:53:15 <elliott> both logs are there
22:53:21 <zzo38> Yes I can see that.
22:53:28 <elliott> tswett: I want it more than an un-Friendly AI might want to fill the universe with paperclips.
22:53:41 <tswett> elliott: do you want it a positive amount?
22:53:59 <tswett> I guess the minimum possible amount of wanting is 0, and anything other than 0 constitutes want.
22:54:03 <elliott> I want it an INFINITE POSITIVE AMOUNT.
22:54:08 <tswett> Oh, okay.
22:54:24 <tswett> You should have been in ##nomic, then; the topic has said for days that I'm giving it away. :P
22:54:37 <zzo38> What rank of infinity do you want?
22:55:26 <tswett> elliott: do you have a MyDomain account?
22:55:58 <Sgeo> Would ownership of normish.org involve spending money?
22:56:16 <elliott> tswett: I totally do. On the other hand, I don't want it today, if that's okay X-D
22:56:27 <tswett> You'd have to renew it every so often. You would not have to pay me, unless there are multiple people who want it.
22:56:35 <elliott> Well.
22:56:45 <elliott> tswett: I want it more if there is any interest in playing a game like Normish.
22:56:54 <tswett> I have interest in that. :P
22:57:22 <zzo38> Do you like to use FORMCARD? I invented the FORMCARD specification a while ago I would like to see in case of anything wrong you should check http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/formcard/fileformat.txt
22:57:50 <elliott> tswett: People who aren't you.
22:58:22 <Sgeo> elliott, yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesy
22:58:33 <tswett> I guess Sgeo also has interest in playing it.
22:58:53 <Sgeo> Can't guarantee I'd be active all the time thogh
22:59:39 <elliott> tswett: I now see the PERFECT WAY TO RUN NORMISH.
22:59:47 <elliott> Poll tax!
23:00:07 <elliott> To be able to vote, every month, everyone has to pay (cost of server)/(number of players). :p
23:00:25 <Sgeo> I thought you were specifically trying to exclude me
23:00:36 <elliott> Those who don't do that for two months in a row have their accounts made inactive. Any costs not covered are paid by root.
23:00:37 <elliott> GENIUS AMIRITE
23:01:11 <elliott> Sgeo: wut?
23:01:12 <tswett> I've figured there'd be a certain number of voting credits, and you could buy them outright, but anyone who's willing to pay more for them can buy them out from under you.
23:01:28 <elliott> tswett: I was mostly just trying to avoid having to spend money on the whole endeavour :)
23:01:33 <Sgeo> elliott, since I find it annoying to pay for stuff
23:01:37 <tswett> I have a server for free as long as I don't do anything naughty.
23:01:44 <elliott> What provider?
23:01:53 <tswett> My friend. :P
23:02:03 <tswett> Who's getting it from prgmr.
23:02:30 <elliott> tbh, it'd be a lot easier if I just got a prgmr server myself :-P
23:02:38 <elliott> We'd probably do fine with the $8/mo package, even.
23:02:51 <elliott> Gregor: How much do you pay for FlyByWire?
23:02:52 <tswett> That's fine. I'd be fully willing to pay half.
23:02:55 <elliott> Gregor: Because prgmr have a $5/mo server :P
23:03:04 <elliott> A whole 64 MEBIOCTETS of RAM.
23:03:05 <Gregor> elliott: $20/yr
23:03:11 <elliott> That's 16 MEBIWORDS of RAM.
23:03:15 <elliott> Gregor: Wow :P
23:03:35 <Gregor> elliott: Fly By Wire Enterprises: We is with having of the good times servers for less your money!
23:03:41 <Gregor>
23:04:12 <elliott> What the heck is fly-by-wire about it anyway :P
23:04:21 <Gregor> Just the price.
23:04:24 <elliott> "Fly-by-wireless" BEST TERM EVER
23:04:44 <tswett> The fact that you don't control the servers by applying mechanical force to their control surfaces. :P
23:04:50 <elliott> tswett: Anyway, clearly Normish 2 has to be an acceptable host for SmallNomic :P
23:04:58 <tswett> Clearly!
23:05:10 <elliott> tswett: To be honest, my IDEAL SmallNomic concept is actually... @nomic.
23:05:37 <tswett> What's that? A Twitter account?
23:05:37 <Gregor> PROFESSIONAL BA-BY
23:05:53 <elliott> Gregor: What's that from again >_>
23:05:55 <elliott> tswett: You know of elliottOS?
23:06:04 <Gregor> elliott: IF YOU DON'T KNOW THEN YOU'RE AN ANDROID
23:06:09 <tswett> elliott: no.
23:06:12 <elliott> Gregor: RIGHT
23:06:16 <Deewiant> elliott: Where'd you pull that word from
23:06:20 <elliott> Deewiant: :-)
23:06:33 <tswett> elliott: should I make us a WePay account to handle expenses?
23:06:58 <elliott> tswett: Let's say tomorrow.
23:07:03 <elliott> Today I am rather sleepy.
23:07:06 <elliott> Deewiant: With oklopol's knowledge of Finnish and my desire for every language to be polysynthetic combined, we applied our combined forces to create the best word for "today" ever.
23:07:11 <elliott> Deewiant: I hope you grokked the meaning.
23:07:12 <Gregor> WHY DID NOBODY TELL ME ABOUT WEPAY WHEN I WAS COLLECTING FOR LIBC.SO
23:07:28 <Deewiant> elliott: Aye, I guessed as much
23:07:28 <elliott> tswett: Q:Does WePay allow international (non-US) payments?
23:07:28 <elliott> A:Not right now, but we hope to soon.
23:07:32 <elliott> tswett: Sorry, not workable.
23:07:33 <zzo38> Gregor: Sorry I didn't know about WePay either
23:08:14 <elliott> tswett: I would be fine just paying for the server myself, but if you want to pay half of it, then I'm fine just receiving half the yearly cost every year via any means :P
23:08:17 <tswett> elliott: no. I want Normish to be up and running with 1,000,000 users by tonight.
23:08:27 <elliott> I'll get Google on the phone.
23:08:41 <Gregor> elliott: So do you want to know who Fly By Wire Industries is? :P
23:08:48 <elliott> Gregor: Yes. I believe you've said but sure :P
23:09:00 <tswett> Gregor: I'm sorry, it's my fault. I knew about WePay but deliberately chose not to tell you because I hate your guts.
23:09:08 <tswett> Not you yourself, just your guts.
23:09:09 <elliott> Deewiant: Wait, so if I walked up to you IRL and dropped that word into a sentence, you'd continue on like nothing happened?
23:09:10 <Gregor> elliott: Oh, the other thing that was distressing is their extremely nondescript plans, including several plans with a substantially different price but the same features.
23:09:20 <elliott> Deewiant: THIS COULD BE ENOUGH TO MAKE ME LEARN FINNISH
23:09:23 <Gregor> 365ezone.com (<-- also so lol)
23:09:24 <tswett> And I figured the best way to spite your guts was this.
23:09:45 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, you should have got a Windows server.
23:09:47 <elliott> More diversity.
23:09:53 <Deewiant> elliott: I'd understand what you're trying to say, but I wouldn't continue "like nothing happened" :-P
23:10:11 <tswett> elliott: what's this magical word that you're talking about?
23:10:15 <elliott> Deewiant: You can't say you'd give me a blank stare, because a blank stare is the default Finnish facial expression.
23:10:23 <elliott> tswett: kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen
23:10:26 <elliott> tswett: It means "today".
23:10:30 <tswett> elliott: and are you sure you can't make a United States domestic payment? :P
23:10:34 <Gregor> elliott: See: Price.
23:10:45 <Deewiant> It means "24-hour-time-period-current" or something
23:10:48 <tswett> I understand four letters of that word! Yay!
23:10:51 <elliott> tswett: I'm not SURE of that, but I'm sufficiently not unsure of it that it seems less pain just to give the payments in bulk :P
23:10:57 <tswett> At least, I think I do. :P
23:11:04 <elliott> Deewiant: Precisely.
23:11:07 <oklopol> Deewiant: except unlike the finnish version, that english word is almost a valid sentence
23:11:11 <oklopol> erm
23:11:18 <elliott> oklopol: et tu brute
23:11:18 <oklopol> not sentence but noun pile
23:11:22 <elliott> noun pile :D
23:11:27 <tswett> No, I actually don't understand any of it.
23:11:36 <elliott> Deewiant: http://miekko.infa.fi/kaksikymment.ogg
23:12:12 <oklopol> but if it was kahdenkymmenenneljntunninajanjaksotmnhetkinen, it'd be as good
23:12:52 <Deewiant> That "tämänhetkinen" just seems wrong
23:13:01 <oklopol> Deewiant: as wrong as in english
23:13:22 <Deewiant> Still wrong
23:13:37 <oklopol> you dislike tmnhetkinenkahdenkymmenenneljntunninajanjakso too?
23:13:48 <elliott> Deewiant: I am offering a $9999999999 bounty for composing the sentence "My hovercraft is full of eels." in a single word of polysyntheticFinnish.
23:14:04 <Deewiant> oklopol: Yes, because then it should be (at least) two words :-P
23:14:15 <zzo38> elliott: Do you have that much money?
23:14:19 <elliott> Absolutely.
23:14:22 <oklopol> Deewiant: unlike current24hourperiod?
23:14:30 <tswett> He never said which currency that's in.
23:14:44 <zzo38> OK, what currency is that in?
23:14:51 <Deewiant> oklopol: The 24hourperiod bit is fairly fine in Finnish, not English.
23:14:52 <zzo38> (It is probably some currency using the dollar sign?)
23:15:04 <elliott> It is elliott dollars.
23:15:13 <elliott> I am the treasurer, mint, &c.
23:15:59 <zzo38> O, so you made up your own $9999999999 bill which is valid only for paying you?
23:16:05 <oklopol> Deewiant: maybe slightly more fine
23:16:09 <elliott> Also for paying Deewiant.
23:16:13 <Gregor> Zimbabwe dollars
23:16:14 <elliott> It will open up an account in the Bank of Elliott.
23:16:23 <Gregor> (Now valueless)
23:16:23 <Deewiant> elliott: Best I can do is "my hovercraft full of eels" in two words: ankeriastäytteinen ilmatyynyalukseni
23:16:38 <elliott> Deewiant: Dude, it doesn't have to be perfectly valid Finnish.
23:16:46 <Deewiant> Well then just remove the space
23:16:57 <Deewiant> Creating a word like your 24-hour-period
23:16:59 <elliott> Deewiant: You need to fit the "is" in... probably in suffix.
23:17:12 <tswett> elliott dollars are legal tender for all debts, public and private, owed by elliott.
23:17:13 <Gregor> HOW TO MAKE A VALID FINNISH WORD: REMOVE SPACES
23:17:30 <tswett> elliott: "is" is totally unnecessary in Finnish.
23:17:35 <elliott> yay
23:17:38 <elliott> Gregor: there are actually like 28 one-letter finnish words
23:17:41 <elliott> Gregor: you just concatenate them successively
23:17:55 <tswett> How many letters are used in Finnish, not counting "sh"?
23:18:10 <Zwaarddijk> can you turn täyttyä into some neat verb form that would be past, finitive, detransitivized
23:18:33 <Gregor> elliott: Of course!
23:18:44 <elliott> Deewiant: new bounty: "twenty-four-hour-period-in-which-my-hovercraft-is-full-of-eels"
23:18:57 <elliott> Such that it could go after "good", e.g. "good day" -> "good [day in which my hovercraft is full of eels]"
23:19:00 <elliott> *i.e.
23:19:06 <Deewiant> I'll leave that one for oklopol
23:19:32 <elliott> oklopol: ^
23:20:05 <Zwaarddijk> that requires too great finnish-fu for my hurri abilities :|
23:21:07 * oklopol says nothing and hopes they go away
23:21:49 <elliott> oklopol: HI
23:22:51 <Gregor> You can do this with German, too.
23:22:55 <Gregor> Do we have any Germans here?
23:22:56 <Deewiant> elliott: I do hope you're actually inputting nonsense into a translator instead of getting that out of something sensible
23:23:08 <elliott> Deewiant: i refuse to disclose :-D
23:23:11 <elliott> *disclose my methods
23:23:24 <Gregor> (Or Austrians, Suisse Deutsch?)
23:23:30 <Zwaarddijk> ilmatyynyaluksenankeriaistäyttyneisyydenkahdenkymmenennenneljäntunninkausi
23:23:33 <Zwaarddijk> ?
23:23:40 <Zwaarddijk> alas, it lacks the first person possessive
23:24:02 <elliott> good enough
23:24:11 <oerjan> yon eelful day
23:24:14 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: pronounce THAT :D
23:24:30 <Zwaarddijk> there may be mistaken morphology in there
23:24:31 <Gregor> Google doesn't understand it :(
23:24:33 <Zwaarddijk> elliott: not hard, really
23:24:37 <Gregor> (It does know that it's Finnish)
23:24:37 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: close enough, it means *something* except for the obvious typo
23:24:39 <elliott> SO
23:24:40 <elliott> ?
23:24:56 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: my keyboard sucks so typos can be because of that
23:25:00 <tswett> Looks like the Finnishest letters are adeghijklmnoprstuvyäö. 21 of them.
23:25:10 <oerjan> nåværende tjuefiretimersperiode
23:25:11 <Zwaarddijk> oi
23:25:22 <Zwaarddijk> the kymmenen got a bit mangled
23:25:23 <tswett> So Finnish has 21 basic words, clearly, but there are a few loanwords, too.
23:25:29 <Zwaarddijk> or ait no
23:25:40 <elliott> tswett: no, they're cunningly constructed out of the basic words
23:25:49 <Zwaarddijk> s/ankerias/ankerias
23:25:57 <Zwaarddijk> see, keyboard sucks!
23:26:00 <tswett> So things such as "b" are constructed out of the other 21 letters?
23:26:03 <Zwaarddijk> fucking aptop of hell
23:26:33 <Zwaarddijk> *laptop <- see?
23:26:33 <oerjan> b was unable to cross the finnish line
23:26:45 <Zwaarddijk> actually
23:26:47 <elliott> what's so funny about "olen menettänyt sen"
23:26:51 <tswett> Everyone who crosses the Finnish border becomes unable to say "b".
23:26:57 <Zwaarddijk> I think there's a diagonalization proof that early Finnish could not support "b"
23:27:08 <elliott> <tswett> So things such as "b" are constructed out of the other 21 letters?
23:27:09 <elliott> er.
23:27:09 <elliott> yes.
23:27:10 <elliott> :D
23:27:10 <tswett> The "b"-aura doesn't extend into Finland, you see.
23:27:19 <elliott> <elliott> what's so funny about "olen menettänyt sen"
23:27:25 <tswett> Of course, "b" is clearly just "pv".
23:27:49 <tswett> Say "pvottle". It will sound... similar to exactly the same as "bottle".
23:28:18 <elliott> `addquote <tswett> Of course, "b" is clearly just "pv". <tswett> Say "pvottle". It will sound... similar to exactly the same as "bottle".
23:28:19 <HackEgo> 356) <tswett> Of course, "b" is clearly just "pv". <tswett> Say "pvottle". It will sound... similar to exactly the same as "bottle".
23:29:25 <oerjan> norwegian samis are stereotypically unable of saying voiced stops...
23:29:34 <oerjan> *to say
23:30:16 <oerjan> and sami languages are closely related to finnish
23:30:19 <oklopol> elliott: olen menettnyt sen is funny because it's so far from the correct meaning, despite being unambiguously translatable and thus understandable. and menett is such a serious word.
23:30:25 <oklopol> i dunno.
23:30:31 <elliott> oklopol: what does it actually mean then :P
23:30:34 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: what's it supposed to mean?
23:30:36 <oklopol> i have lost it
23:30:42 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: "I lost it"
23:30:43 <elliott> e.g.
23:30:45 <Zwaarddijk> what did they mistranslate into it
23:30:49 <elliott> please find my blah, I lost it
23:30:55 <Zwaarddijk> yeah, I misplaced it
23:30:56 <elliott> is the intention
23:30:57 <Zwaarddijk> somesuch
23:31:05 <Zwaarddijk> ah, k.
23:31:06 <Zwaarddijk> well
23:31:11 <Zwaarddijk> it's got more connotations
23:31:28 <Zwaarddijk> way more.
23:31:30 <oklopol> oh you literally meant you have lost something?
23:31:47 <elliott> oklopol: yes
23:31:52 <elliott> my drift, that is
23:31:52 <oklopol> then it is not at all funny, just the wrong word.
23:31:55 <elliott> :D
23:31:58 <elliott> did you think i meant
23:31:59 <oerjan> i have misunderplaced it
23:32:00 <elliott> i've lost my mind
23:32:00 <oklopol> yes
23:32:00 <elliott> or similar
23:32:09 <Zwaarddijk> olen hukannut sen is closer then
23:32:50 <Zwaarddijk> actually menettää is more like, lost in gambling, lost something to someone as one of the connotations
23:33:02 <oerjan> pardon me sir, i would seem to have mislaid some of my marbles
23:39:49 <zzo38> My hand will not fit in the shredder.
23:40:10 <elliott> ...
23:40:17 <elliott> O KAY
23:40:30 <Zwaarddijk> that sounds like a feature rather than a flaw
23:41:28 <zzo38> Well yes. Actually the shredder is broken anyways. Now it will be necessary to unscrew it in order to fix it.
23:41:42 <zzo38> And I do not have that kind of screwdrivers.
23:42:12 <cheater99> menettää sounds like the polish word for cunnilingus.
23:47:34 -!- cheater00 has joined.
23:49:25 <zzo38> Which feature of TeXnicard is most important one to you? (You are allowed to select one which is not implemented yet, if that is what you wish)
23:50:41 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:50:55 <elliott> zzo38: the name
23:51:24 <zzo38> elliott: Would that be considered a feature of the program?
23:51:42 <elliott> yes
23:51:51 <cheater00> zzo38: yes, it makes it better than the same project named e.g. "elliott"
23:52:39 <Sgeo> Fan sucks as a name! J sucks as a name! Factor _really_ sucks as a name!
23:53:12 <zzo38> cheater00: Yes, perhaps it is correct, it is better for the project to be named correctly according to what it is, instead of according to what it isn't. But still, the name is not really one of the functions of the program, I think.
23:53:18 -!- ZOMGMODULES has joined.
23:53:22 <zzo38> Sgeo: Can you suggest the better one than Fan, J, Factor?
23:53:44 <zzo38> Probably is best to leave those named as it is, since they were already like that? It might confuse more by changing it?
23:54:01 <Sgeo> zzo38, they shouldn't have been named those things in the first place
23:54:07 <elliott> fizzie: i think we're really improving your channel
23:54:20 <Sgeo> If you look for Factor language, you'll get stuff about how to do factoring in given languages
23:54:21 <zzo38> Sgeo: OK, then. What do you think they should have been named?
23:54:27 <Sgeo> zzo38, anything else
23:54:34 <elliott> Sgeo: fan is a nice name
23:54:37 <elliott> fantom is a bad name
23:54:56 <Sgeo> Fantom's more Googleable than Fan
23:54:58 <cheater00> zzo38: the only reason for me to use your program is if it makes me feel better
23:55:06 <Sgeo> although I guess fan programming or fan language is still Googleable
23:55:14 <cheater00> zzo38: i wouldn't feel so good if i were using an "elliott" program
23:55:31 <zzo38> I am sure you can find stuff about Factor language, on Wikipedia, the article titles are very well organized that you should easily be able to guess the article title for nearly anything you look up, and get it correct.
23:55:33 <Sgeo> Oh, I thought it went Fantom -> Fan
23:55:37 <Sgeo> It went Fan -> Fantom
23:55:39 <Sgeo> I'm ok with that.
23:56:05 <Sgeo> zzo38, but I want more than just Wikipedia and what it links to. I want to be able to search StackOverflow without getting nonsense about factoring
23:56:32 <zzo38> Sgeo: Do they have categories in StackOverflow that you can use instead?
23:56:35 <ZOMGMODULES> Fantor
23:56:57 <Sgeo> Dan + Tom = Dantom
23:57:18 <Sgeo> Fannie Mae + Thomas = Fantom?
23:57:19 <oerjan> the The programming language
23:57:27 <elliott> Fanlctorn
23:57:37 <ZOMGMODULES> "The Language Formerly Known as Fan"
23:57:52 <ZOMGMODULES> they should have called it an unpronouncable symbol
23:57:59 <zzo38> cheater00: Does my program makes you feel better? Generally the reason of using a computer program is it is useful for the things you are doing by computer.
23:58:05 <Sgeo> ZOMGMODULES, that should be APL
23:58:23 <cheater00> zzo38: yes, no.
23:58:35 <ZOMGMODULES> Dear Fantom, thank you for looking exactly like every other language. Yours, ZOMGMODULES
23:58:37 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, APL.
23:59:05 <Sgeo> zzo38, I meant that APL's name should be <unpronouncable symbol>
23:59:05 <cheater00> zzo38: yes, it is supposed to be useful, but the usefulness is not purely functional in the sense that there are no side-effects from the program in the form of the program *directly* accessing the state of my happiness.
23:59:16 <oerjan> the Programming language
23:59:26 <cheater00> as opposed to returning a happiness modifier to the higher-level task from within which it was involved.
23:59:33 * Sgeo notices oerjan
23:59:33 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: im gonna make apex without any of ur stinky influences
23:59:41 <oerjan> ... APL almost _is_ that isn't it.
23:59:56 <zzo38> cheater00: O, well, if it make you happy that is the bonus!
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