00:07:37 -!- cheater- has joined. 00:10:40 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:55:29 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:55:38 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:57:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:07:00 -!- clog has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:17:38 Welp, the libm.so auction has started. 01:23:03 -!- esowiki has joined. 01:23:17 -!- glogbot has joined. 01:26:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:30:04 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:53:55 -!- lament has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 02:08:45 Given everybody else's ping timeouts, maybe my bots aren't actually doing anything wrong :P 02:22:36 -!- zzo38 has joined. 02:24:27 Still, I prefer SIRCL rather than the raw format that glogbot uses, but at least glogbot is not lying about the raw logs in the way that clog is doing. 02:25:13 How does clog lie? 02:26:49 zzo38: Do you have a description or example of SIRCL's format? 02:26:53 It says 'These logs are purposely "raw" and are intended to be parsed/reformated/wrapped before viewing.' but it isn't raw. 02:28:09 glogbot's raw format is not really meant to be readable, just bake-able. Its baked format could probably use some TLC. 02:28:32 Gregor: Very simple. UNIX timestamp, TAB, and then the message, terminated by CRLF (always CRLF, LF only is not allowed). Metadata commands have no TAB and have an asterisk as the first character of the line (before the timestamp, if any). Here is an actual log created in that format: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/irc_log/ADMIN/1291325292 02:29:47 The fact that that lines up the messages does make it more readable I'll admit. 02:31:02 I chose my format to 1) distinguish outgoing messages since it does in fact send messages out on requests, 2) have the totally-unnecessary added precision of gettimeofday and 3) use space delimitation for the simple reason that IRC is already space-delimited (modulo the :-to-EOL rule) 02:33:08 SIRCL format is not intended to be more or less readable than any others, it is just a way that makes sense to me. It uses TAB only after the timestamp; IRC commands are delimited with spaces and colons as normal. The TAB separates the timestamp from the message. It requires CRLF the same as the IRC prtoocol specification says it is. You are not required to use this format; but I do have it. 02:35:33 My log reformatter is extremely-lazily-written, and tokenizes my entire raw-format line as if it was an IRC message, so having spaces saves me one utterly-minor step X-P 02:35:37 (Also note these logs are created directly by the server, so in this case there is no need to distinguish send/receive, it simply logs everything that any client on that channel would receive. One way to use it in client logging if wanted, is to omit the sender part for sent messages. This format also supports metadata, although any program that creates or parses this format is not required to write or use it.) 02:35:51 Gregor: O, that makes sense, if that is how you wrote it. 02:44:10 I would, however, have the filenames a bit different: The raws have no extension (also no "-raw"), while the formatted ones formatted as HTML with the ".html" extension. So, for example, you would have "2011-03-20" and "2011-03-20.html" files. At least that is my opinion; you do not have to agree. But at least I like that you actually have raw logs, unlike clog. 02:45:19 I have considered making HTML ones ... the fact that the raw ones have a "-raw.txt" extension is because in my delusional imagination I postulate that the primary audience cares more about the baked logs, so marking the raw logs as "Here there be dragons" doesn't hurt *shrugs* 02:49:07 ANNOUNCEMENT: I am a superstitious ninny who unplugs my laptop from mains when there's a thunderstorm. Boo me. 02:50:12 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 02:50:25 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:51:07 I should add a PM command to glogbot that makes it so it notices you the last few lines when you join a channel. Opt-in of course. 02:52:00 AND IT'S ALL MY FAULT 02:52:44 I have invented SIRCL as a possible standard format for IRC logs. 02:53:13 Gregor: Yes, perhaps PRIVMSG glogbot :TAIL 12 for 12 lines, and put 0 to disable it. 02:53:38 * Gregor strongly considers this notion ... 02:54:29 There really also ought to be STATUS and HELP commands, even if you have no TAIL command like this. 02:55:11 I'm not sure what status would do, and there is !glogbot_help, although I could just as well make it respond to more in PM *shrugs* 02:56:40 I feel weird 02:56:40 I'm "helping" someone with chemistry by turning chemistry problems into.. stuff about marbles 03:00:52 In PM perhaps it would respond even if "!glogbot_" is not prefixed? And STATUS would display the URL as well as number of channels, possibly data rate and so on? Perhaps some option that the inviter can select whether or not commands sent to the channel are recognized? Some might want the log but not want it to recognize commands sent to the channel, which is why the channel operator should be able to turn it off somehow? 03:02:48 Perhaps if the channel operator sets channel mode +q glogbot!*@* then it will ignore commands sent to the channel completely... it could be implemented by having glogbot attempt to send a NOTICE with the log URL to the channel immediately after being invited....? 03:04:33 You receive a 404 if you send when you have +q that way it can check. 03:06:18 zzo38: What purpose is there in ignoring messages sent to the channel? It always responds with a personal NOTICE now, so it is not the one disturbing the peace. 03:07:02 Gregor: In case you want a channel without bot commands, or if there is confliction. So, two reasons. 03:08:27 (At least.) 03:09:38 At least I think that making it send the NOTICE with the URL and checking for 404, solves two problems at once. But that is just my opinion. 03:11:56 -!- esowiki has joined. 03:12:07 -!- glogbot has joined. 03:12:12 It just doesn't check for errors. 03:12:46 There, now it accepts truncated commands via PM :) 03:13:02 ... and hopefully not directly, as I shall test thusly: 03:13:02 help 03:13:14 s/directly/in a channel/ 03:13:47 OK 03:16:56 And now it has a passive-aggressive !glogbot_status command :) 03:17:41 OK, I can see that works. 03:34:22 Now, I wonder, should they implement a NS SET MODE command? 03:35:34 I can ask them maybe if they know 03:36:37 Or NS HELP 03:37:40 Oh, should 03:37:40 n/m 04:14:30 -!- wareya_ has joined. 04:15:27 Aaaand the US cellphone market gets smaller still. 04:15:36 AT&T to buy T-Mobile. 04:16:16 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:16:18 This will leave us with precisely *one* GSM carrier in the US, as well. 04:16:36 I do not think one is enough? 04:16:56 And three majors carriers overall. 04:17:18 Ma Bell is coming back. 04:17:51 Well, it doesn't affect me, I do not use cellular telephones anyways. 04:18:20 AT&T, Verizon, and Sprint. 04:19:30 Sorry, I should specify; they're buying T-Mobile US; no overseas operations. 04:21:17 I live in Canada, but regardless of where I live I still do not use cellular phone. 04:28:23 Maybe later I will write more TeX programs, such as macros to make calendar, mailing labels, barcodes, and more. All designed to be used with Plain TeX, DVI output, and no DVI specials. 04:35:00 Many other packages are LaTeX only, PDF only, Type 1 fonts only, e-TeX only, or require external "makeindex" program, DVI specials, SVG, PostScript, or something else. So now I make the one that does not require anything special. 05:10:58 oh crap :( guess that means my cell phone bill is going up lol 05:22:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:25:40 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:35:09 -!- asiekierka has joined. 05:38:57 Too bad!!! 06:10:03 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 06:19:42 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:34:05 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 06:35:04 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:21:01 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:32:38 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:08:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:17:29 -!- cheater99 has joined. 08:18:21 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:21:21 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined. 08:24:24 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:32:09 -!- augur has joined. 08:35:28 -!- azaq23 has joined. 08:40:26 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:08:34 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:13:27 -!- jcp has joined. 09:19:45 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 09:21:08 -!- pikhq has joined. 10:39:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:41:36 * oerjan laughs at today's xkcd hovertext 10:43:28 oerjan: wat 10:44:02 SORRY I CANNOT HEAR YOU 11:14:01 -!- cheater00 has joined. 11:15:20 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:27:26 -!- iconmaster_ has joined. 11:30:25 -!- iconmaster_ has quit (Client Quit). 11:44:08 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:50:03 -!- Slereah has joined. 11:56:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 11:59:12 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:04:13 oerjan: today's xkcd is quite good generally 12:04:53 MAYBE 12:05:32 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 12:06:07 -!- sftp has joined. 12:06:44 -!- variable has joined. 12:14:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:18:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:23:05 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:24:47 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 12:25:47 ais523, hm talking of today's xkcd. Is there any special significance to the year 2017? As opposed to any other ones in the near future 12:25:59 I don't think so 12:26:11 but 6 years from now is about the right timespan for the joke to work 12:26:17 maybe 5 or 7 would have worked too 12:26:30 yeah 12:26:43 just thought it might be some movie reference or such 12:27:22 -!- Slereah has quit. 12:28:18 There's a solar eclipse, that's all I can think of. The year-to-reference would have probably been 2012, but that's both overdone and a bit too soon. 12:28:47 fizzie, where is that eclipse? 12:29:10 Them Americans have it, I think. 12:29:16 ah 12:30:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_eclipse_of_August_21,_2017 12:30:07 Goes right through North America there. 12:31:00 shouldn't that page have one of those "this article is about an upcoming event" kind of boilerplate 12:31:10 I seem to remember wikipedia has that variant as well 12:32:47 Vorpal: that's basically put there in order to prevent idiots writing things into the article that makes no sense 12:34:04 ais523, oh? Such as wrong tense? 12:34:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Future seems to have been deleted. 12:34:48 no, it's mostly to stop people writing vandalism about future events as if they've already happened/already known, then other people believing it as it's Wikipedia 12:34:51 I'm not sure how often that happens 12:35:47 deleted three times, but first time seems to be via WP:CENT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Centralized_discussion/Deprecating_%22Future%22_templates 12:36:11 (not that WP:CENT is actually a deletion process, but I don't think anyone cares; it's heavier-weight than most deletion processes, so probably falls under IAR) 12:37:31 "then other people believing it as it's Wikipedia" <-- it is strange that happens really 12:37:49 ais523, oha and what is IAR? 12:37:53 ignore all rules 12:38:01 ah 12:38:02 there are huge debates on how to actually interpret it 12:38:08 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:38:29 ais523, presumably you could just ignore IAR and be done with it 12:39:08 although my interpretation is more or less that a) if nobody disagrees with an action, you can do it regardless of what policy says (WP:BOLD's along those lines, too); b) the spirit of the rules are more important than the letter; c) documented rules lag behind accepted practice (i.e. it becomes accepted /then/ it's documented), so it's OK to break an old rule if Wikipedia has moved on since 12:39:10 but more seriously, isn't it to avoid getting stuck on rules when they are clearly suggesting a bad/stupid way forward? 12:40:01 that's a special case, but an important one 12:40:28 in the case here, "you can delete a page via WP:CENT even though it isn't a deletion process" seems a perfectly valid use of IAR 12:40:49 given that it sort-of trumps other processes, in that it would be a reasonable way to change deletion process 12:41:02 hm 12:41:53 anyway, tl;dr of the CENT discussion about {{future}}: it was meant to be a warning that the page was being heavily edited as details came out, but wasn't actually being used that way 12:42:33 ah 12:42:45 ais523: There was a {{future}} in the article "29th century". 12:42:50 and the way it was being used was entirely useless 12:42:56 fizzie: yes, that's a good example 12:43:11 unlikely to have more details coming out rapidly, causing a flurry of edits, on that example! 12:45:30 the mere existence of that article is pretty ridiculous 12:46:01 well, isn't the 29th century more notable than (insert favourite example of niche Wikipedia article here)? 12:46:21 oh no, wikipaedia woes 12:47:50 ais523, probably :P 12:51:08 "The CPR [Canadian Pacific Railway] obtained a 999-year lease on the O&Q [Ontario and Quebeck Railway] on January 4, 1884. -- The CPR also leased the New Brunswick Railway in 1890 for 990 years, --" Why exactly a bit less than thousand years (as opposed to some other ludicrous number), I wonder. 12:51:38 because 1000 would have looked too large, it's the same principle as charging £9.99 in shops 12:51:48 "A 999-year lease is, under historic common law, essentially a nominal lease of property for life. The lease locations are mainly in Britain, her former colonies and Commonwealth. The longest possible term of a lease of real property is legally a 99-year lease." 12:51:59 Figures that there is an article for "999-year lease" specifically. 12:53:31 (Not a *good* article, though.) 13:08:27 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 13:18:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 13:23:01 -!- esowiki has joined. 13:23:14 -!- glogbot has joined. 13:27:33 Arghwtfbbq 13:27:38 Why can't these guys stay pinged in. 13:28:03 naja 13:33:24 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 13:34:40 Gregor, what is glogbot? 13:36:37 it's not optbot 13:36:57 aha, that one 13:37:09 yeah it replaced optbot 13:39:09 In no way has it "replaced" optbot, since it doesn't serve the same function >_> 13:42:13 Gregor, there is a typo in the topic. Might be intentional 13:42:50 oh wait, PH set the topic 13:42:51 hm 13:42:52 For some reason PH decided that Roman...ism and socialism are the same thing. 13:43:08 "GLORIOVS" yeah, how strange 13:46:04 Anyway, glogbot is exactly what it sounds like. 13:46:20 Gregor, a gnu or gnome logging bot :P 13:46:24 that's not a typo in ancient Latin, except it probably isn't a real word in ancient Latin 13:46:26 Pff 13:46:32 Gregor, oh gregor :P 13:47:34 Gregor, Gregor Compiler Collection 13:47:42 you could make that 13:47:48 out of your various languages 13:48:30 it'd be egologbot if it were Gregor's 13:48:44 oh true, so it must be gnu then 13:48:47 or possibly gnome 13:48:48 (note: assertion may contradict reality) 13:49:10 ymmv? 13:49:41 "ego" is for esorelated things. 13:50:05 and a #esoteric logbot isn't esorelated? 13:50:43 It's a general-purpose logbot that just so happens to be being used on #esoteric . 13:52:06 meanwhile: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/03/identifying_photocopy_machine.html 13:52:10 non-eso, but pretty funny 13:52:15 especially if you like silly legal situations 13:52:40 it's basically a case where someone tried to answer a question about if there was a photocopier in an office, by repeatedly asking the questioning lawyer to define a photocopier 13:57:05 meanwhile: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/03/identifying_photocopy_machine.html <-- wtf 13:57:08 ais523, is that a joke? 13:57:37 no 13:57:40 oh my 13:57:55 it's not even particularly silly by the standards of typical court cases 13:58:02 but it makes a change from SCO 13:58:54 hah 13:59:07 ais523, SCO is still going at it? 13:59:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 13:59:21 you'd expect them to have stopped? 13:59:40 they recently managed to get a bankruptcy judge to approve them selling all their assets but only a very small number of liabities 13:59:43 *liabilities 13:59:47 also, they're bankrupt on paper, again 14:00:12 in terms of technically owning a negative amount of cash, not that that seems impossible in bankruptcy court as you can delay payments 14:00:24 (they're legally bankrupt already, in that they declared bankruptcy years ago now) 14:00:36 ais523: lololol @ "Xerox" 14:00:37 ais523, aren't there time limits on that sort of stuff 14:00:50 Vorpal: yes, and they've been extended/broken repeatedly 14:01:01 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:01:09 ais523, aren't there limits on how many times an extension can be granted? 14:01:22 Gregor: I can't figure out if the person in question was a) an idiot, b) trolling, c) serious 14:01:34 although b) would be epic 14:01:49 Vorpal: the CEO of the company was removed and replaced with a bankrupcy-court-appointed trustee 14:01:59 who kept on doing exactly the same thing the removed CEO had been doing 14:02:06 ais523, that sounds very strange 14:02:16 s/trustee/puppet/ 14:02:22 Vorpal: this is /SCO/ we're talking about 14:02:29 how could it not be? 14:02:38 So, who would find a glogbot "tail" mode useful? (That is, when you join it sends you in a NOTICE the last few messages on the channel) 14:02:55 I'm not sure whether it's worth implementing, since it has some risk of flooding itself into oblivion :P 14:03:00 ais523, don't they realize it must be futile to continue? 14:03:03 I'd find that vaguely useful, although not sufficiently useful to insist someone else should implement it 14:03:06 it should be opt-in, at least 14:03:09 that'll help to reduce flooding 14:03:14 ais523: Of course opt-in 14:03:16 Good lawd opt-in 14:03:25 Vorpal: I'm not sure 14:03:37 it seems futile from the point of view of saving SCO, but that doesn't seem to be the actual objective 14:03:44 and it may be accomplishing whatever the actual objective is quite well 14:03:47 ais523, what would the objective be then 14:04:01 who knows? 14:04:10 although there's enough money moving around, that someone probably ends up benefiting as a result 14:04:18 hm 14:04:23 I'm not entirely sure who, as I lost track 14:04:33 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:04:39 At least the bankruptcy lawyers seem to be being paid. 14:04:45 -!- cheater- has joined. 14:05:00 didn't they have a negative amount of money? 14:05:19 so where would they get money from, surely lending it would be hard for them... 14:05:43 well, there have been people lending them money, perhaps surprisingly 14:06:18 They did also have some positive money at the beginning of the banruptcy process. At least if you don't count the amount they owe to Novell. 14:06:48 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:06:53 it's not quite "owe", it was found that the money was "converted" from Novell, so it technically owns to Novell, just it's currently in SCO's ownership 14:07:04 except it isn't, because they already spent it 14:07:18 ais523, "converted"? 14:07:25 what does that mean in this context 14:07:38 Vorpal: it's a legal term, I'm not quite sure what it means exactly, but it seems to have a similar meaning to "stolen", or perhaps "defrauded" 14:07:45 heh 14:07:51 I think Ocean Park Advisors have been billing them for about $30000/month for 16 months now. 14:08:33 Mostly for planning and implementing the mythical "restructuring plan". 14:09:46 `addquote ais523, "converted"? what does that mean in this context Vorpal: it's a legal term, I'm not quite sure what it means exactly, but it seems to have a similar meaning to "stolen", or perhaps "defrauded" 14:09:48 337) ais523, "converted"? what does that mean in this context Vorpal: it's a legal term, I'm not quite sure what it means exactly, but it seems to have a similar meaning to "stolen", or perhaps "defrauded" 14:10:00 Gregor, why was that quote-worthy? 14:11:10 Because lawl with emphasis on "law" 14:11:16 ah 14:11:24 (The $30k figure was based on a quick look at the recent bills; seems that the early ones were rather larger, $196,002.50 for the first six weeks and so.) 14:11:48 fizzie, the chances of those ever being repaid seems to be about zero? 14:11:55 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:12:21 No, I think those have been paid, more or less; which is probably one of the reasons why SCO no longer has any of the money it was loaned. 14:12:35 Clearly SCO has done quite well for themselves. 14:13:17 also, the loan was secured against everything the company owned, more or less 14:13:31 so if it defaults, I'm not entirely sure what will happen, but it could be quite interesting 14:13:45 -!- variable has joined. 14:13:48 Actually isn't today Novell's last day to appeal for the UnXis sale? 14:13:55 (bonus points if SCO manages to get multiple loans secured against the same assets) 14:13:57 fizzie: it may be 14:14:05 do you think they'll appeal? 14:15:22 I would have guessed "yes" if it was just Novell, but I don't know how much the Novell/Attachmate thing changes the matter. 14:18:34 Of course I haven't been following the whole thing very closely, just read the groklaw posts; those make the sale sound pretty dubious indeed. 14:20:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:21:31 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:21:51 hmm, I'm dealing with a system that uses 0 for true, non-0 for false 14:22:12 what value should I use, concretely, for false? atm I'm doing -1 as it's easy to write as "not true" in two's complement 14:22:22 (also, what value should I use for FILE_NOT_FOUND?) 14:28:52 You have a language/environment where 0 is true, and also you have a bitwise not operator? 14:28:58 Is this HellScript? 14:30:26 no, it's what happens when mathematicians try to project their idealized views on programming languages into the real world 14:30:37 besides, this is #esoteric, is having 0 for true and bitwise-not /that/ bad? 14:31:58 0 is used as true in math? 14:32:01 no 14:32:08 no number is 14:32:16 and the language just chose the "wrong" mapping 14:32:19 well 1 is often used as true, and 0 as false 14:32:47 actually i used 1 as true, 0 as false around 15 minutes ago 14:36:29 but then again i suppose i could've just not thought of the 1 as true 14:37:07 rofl, as if web 2.0 wasn't bad enough.. now i have found a company which says they're an expert in Enterprise 2.0. 14:37:23 what's that 14:37:32 it's like WANs and shit 14:37:40 any sort of job you don't want to do :D 14:38:48 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:39:52 it's not very hard to find a job i don't want to do 14:40:39 how many of those jobs could you successfully apply for, though/ 14:41:19 i'm sure i could get any job i wanted to by just going to the interview and telling them i'm the awesome 14:41:34 "i can even juggle" 14:52:37 aww, i just called someone and they told me off for calling them in the office 14:55:22 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 14:56:10 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:58:54 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:05:58 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:08:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:11:56 -!- olsner has joined. 15:17:18 gah, the instructions for these pills don't have a "what to do if you need eight tries to swallow them whole and manage to spit half a bottle of water onto the floor in the process" 15:17:49 I often have trouble with the mechanical aspects of getting a pill down my throat, but that was just ridiculous 15:17:52 also, my trousers are wet now 15:18:20 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 15:18:27 -!- cheater00 has joined. 15:19:09 any relevant advice? 15:19:27 practise 15:19:47 well, I can only really practice once every eight hours 15:19:59 you can practise swallowing other things tho 15:20:05 and I fear dire things might happen to me if I screw up even worse than that, e.g. biting it in half by mistake 15:20:12 and there are not many things around designed to be swallowed whole 15:20:36 how about grapes? 15:20:49 people swallow those whole? 15:20:54 I fear I'd choke if I tried, they seem rather large 15:20:55 i don't think they do 15:21:21 but i doubt it's very hard 15:23:07 http://google.com/search?q=learn+to+deep+throat THERE YA GO 15:23:21 deep throating isn't very hard either 15:23:25 Gregor: I doubt that link's going to turn up a lot of relevant stuff, even with safesearch on 15:23:32 elliott: THIS IS WHY PEOPLE THINK HE'S GAY 15:24:05 you can control most reflexes with a bit of practise, but i can't seem to get autoblinking off no matter what i do 15:24:20 i spent hours and hours on this last summer 15:24:28 this is more an antireflex 15:24:41 in the end, I managed it this time by reaching all the way back into my mouth and physically inserting the pill there 15:24:56 both it and my mouth were so wet after the previous failures that it actually fell right down 15:25:01 :P 15:25:41 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 15:25:47 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:26:12 any of you tried drinking without swallowing? that would be a neat thing to learn, but since you can die of it afaik, i haven't had the guts to go trial and error 15:26:16 in the end, I managed it this time by reaching all the way back into my mouth and physically inserting the [censored] there both it and my mouth were so wet after the previous failures that it actually fell right down :P 15:26:42 oklopol: a sort of controlled drowning? 15:27:21 the liquid goes in your stomach 15:27:50 I know, I just wanted to say "controlled drowning" 15:28:02 You should waterboard yourself. 15:28:05 how that's guaranteed, i don't know, i imagine if you just go for it, you prolly either succeed, or nothing goes down. 15:28:08 Seems like the ideal solution. 15:28:21 i never quite got how waterboarding could be dangerous 15:28:36 I don't think it's physically dangerous, more it's the psychological issues 15:28:42 would be nice to try that some time, but the serious brain injury part puts me off a bit 15:28:54 possibly it wouldn't 15:29:14 well i don't like risks 15:29:23 although I imagine waterboaring /yourself/ would cause different issues than someone else doing it to you 15:29:25 but drowning sounds like an interesting experience 15:29:52 What was it they did on tosh.0, orange-juice-boarding or something 15:30:00 -!- Slereah has joined. 15:30:03 presumably triggering the body's drown reflex could be dangerous, too 15:30:31 Does the body actually have a "drowning" reflex per se? 15:30:31 note that there's also a case where someone consented to be waterboarded, and afterwards decided it was life-runing torture despite being consented to and sued 15:30:34 Gregor: it does 15:30:51 it's a horrible thought that i have this whole set of drowning related feelings built in, and i never get to experience them 15:30:53 freedivers learn to trigger it deliberately 15:31:05 and use it to hold their breath for several minutes at a time 15:31:37 Sounds ... safe. 15:31:47 perhaps oklopol could learn to do that too 15:31:47 `addquote it's a horrible thought that i have this whole set of drowning related feelings built in, and i never get to experience them 15:31:48 338) it's a horrible thought that i have this whole set of drowning related feelings built in, and i never get to experience them 15:32:03 certainly sounds cool 15:32:31 well, humans have an ability that can only be triggered unconciously to use all their muscle fibers at once (typically they only use about 1/6 or so, because using more does permanent damage) 15:32:56 and people who are panicking sufficiently sometimes do it and do really implausible things as a result, like lifting trees 15:33:11 (presumably, which aren't attached to the ground at the time, and are quite large, or it wouldn't be implausible) 15:33:50 yeah because lifting trees that are attached to the ground isn't hard at all 15:34:00 well, it would be impressive 15:34:06 but more implausible than I'm easily willing to consider 15:34:12 the roots go "hey cool i get to see the sun" and help you lift it 15:34:44 but that's not what roots are /for/ 15:34:46 It's still alive at that point, so it's a willing participant. 15:34:50 It just climbs out of the ground. 15:35:07 it's like your heart deciding it wants to do some thinking for a bit, and swapping places with your brain 15:35:17 which is a nice metaphor, but seems unlikely if taken literally 15:35:40 Hormones can cause behavior, and are carried in the blood :P 15:36:10 yeah, suddenly you start beating your head against the wall every second or so. and spout fluids everywhere. 15:37:01 so how about someone who can actually lift an incredible amount of shit 15:37:15 if their dog is sick and they get all hulk 15:37:18 can they lift houses? 15:37:30 or do they already use more than the healthy amount of their muscles 15:38:08 So, to be perfectly clear ... 15:38:18 Their dog usually produces like 75lb turds 15:38:26 Which they carry to the bin with no effort at all 15:38:44 because it's an interesting concept otherwise: you train doing X all your life, and you actually had the theoretical possibility of doing X even better, before you even started learning it 15:38:45 Their dog is now sick and has filled their entire house with dark-matter shit. 15:39:26 yeah that's roughly what i meant 15:39:37 I'm not sure how it works with athletes 15:40:13 ALSO VULCANS 15:40:27 I think possibly the training strengthens their muscles so they can safely use a larger proportion 15:40:35 vulcans don't have pets 15:40:49 yeah, that sounds likely 15:41:51 also often they sniff that what's that stuff before lifting stuff 15:42:04 i'm proud of my sentences 15:42:42 -!- asiekierka has joined. 15:44:14 hmm, I wonder how easy it would be to statistically predict who said a given sentence based on things like word choice and order? 15:44:27 it's a game we used to play with optbot sometimes last time it was round here 15:44:33 and seems relatively automatable 15:45:22 i can usually spot my own rather easily, i'm usually the ones that make me laugh 15:45:57 fungot: ENTERTAIN US 15:45:58 Gregor: a linear algebra course and fnord by reading euclid. but now it is 15:46:11 that's a bit hard. 15:46:27 fungot: ENTERTAIN US MORE! 15:46:28 Gregor: lack of sensible fnord. then you can choose from major and minor alternatively is kinda cool right mabye you should put in a good language for teaching purposes, it seems 15:46:37 :D 15:46:51 "The copied elements that contain instructions, such as BREAD and CPIO, might perhaps be trade secrets, but Defendants' experts have argued persuasively that these instructions are either in the public domain or otherwise exempt." 15:46:53 FnordScript 15:47:40 ais523: ? 15:48:05 Gregor: it's a quote from the BSD court case (where it was determined that BSD UNIX wasn't a trade secret) 15:48:21 but I thought cpio was a tar competitor, and who calls an instruction BREAD? 15:48:30 Yeah, what's BREAD X-D 15:48:32 b-read maybe? 15:48:48 perhaps 15:50:14 ais523: I did do some authorship attribution experiments on #esoteric logs (using code we did for guessing book authors on a "statistical NLP" course); given a large enough sample it did reasonable, despite being bog-stupid, but single comments not so well. 15:50:37 (Unsurprising since the features were word-length statistics and such.) 15:51:45 APNIC down 0.13: 16k to Taiwan, 1k to Indonesia, 640k(512k+128k)+1280k(1M+256k)+512k+128k to China, 4k+2k+256+/48 to India, 4k to Vietnam, 4k to Australia, 256 to Philippines. 15:51:46 Some author-discriminating features (attribution/punctuation styles and such) would probably help. 15:51:52 fizzie: Why are you making fun of bogs? 15:52:16 Gregor: 'Cause they're not so smart. 15:52:37 fizzie: I've got a bog that could beat you in Chinese Checkers seven times out of twelve! 15:53:13 That's not hard: even I can beat myself that often. 15:53:27 Yeah, I'll bet you "beat" yourself that often. 15:54:28 Pretty quiet day there. Only 7% of their pool gone in single day. 15:54:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:54:47 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:57:21 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:57:25 hey how about a bot 15:57:29 that like 15:57:36 every time anyone says anything 15:57:41 it tells who it thinks said it 15:57:48 ... best idea ever. 15:57:50 :D 15:58:04 I shall implement it, and call it AnnoyingSpammerBot 15:58:15 it could do it in pm if you've put that feature on 15:58:31 and sometimes on the channel if it's REALLY sure 15:58:31 It could do it in CTCP CHAT :P 15:58:37 (DCC) 15:58:43 hey how about 15:58:47 it sends you a text message 15:58:55 hew how about oklopol said that! 15:59:44 hey seriously, this has to happen 15:59:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:05:10 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined. 16:05:17 fizzie: is it done soon? 16:05:20 oklopol, Gregor: should it just look at the nick or should it instead do some heuristic on the text? Matching writing style I mean 16:05:31 or Gregor, if he has some algo for it easily handable 16:05:36 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:05:41 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:05:46 Vorpal: what do you think lol 16:05:50 -!- quintopia has joined. 16:05:59 oklopol, the latter 16:06:08 latter 16:06:15 oklopol: Gregor is more of a guy who does; I'm both busy and in a bus, and the other assorted excuses. 16:06:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:06:52 fizzie: those "excuses" are just an excuse 16:07:02 i see right through you 16:07:22 Oh no, I've become invisible? 16:08:12 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:08:48 fizzie: yes 16:13:37 fizzie, damn, I thought they'd fixed that bug. 16:24:14 -!- ais523_ has joined. 16:25:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:26:31 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 16:27:19 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:34:22 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined. 16:36:24 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:43:55 -!- boily has joined. 16:45:37 o 16:45:38 o 16:45:38 o 16:45:38 o 16:45:59 o 16:47:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:48:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:49:37 -!- boily has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:52:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:52:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:57:48 oklopol: ? 16:57:57 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:59:38 -!- copumpkin has joined. 17:01:13 -!- cal153 has joined. 17:03:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:19:47 Silly syntax based on something I read on Reddit: \lambda x.expr = \frac{expr}{x} 17:20:26 What sort of bastard half child of Lambda Calculus is this? 17:21:17 Well, it's based on the classic exam fail of thinking cos x/x = cos. 17:21:26 lawl 17:21:51 lambda x.x = x² lambda 17:22:24 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what algebraic structures are preserved. 17:22:46 -!- azaq23 has joined. 17:22:54 Commutativity clearly isn't. 17:24:10 I'M AFRAID 17:24:49 -!- cheater99 has joined. 17:25:12 Dammit, x^2/x /= x. 17:26:09 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:36:06 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:36:15 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:00:25 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:00:40 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:06:01 As scale of things going on with APNIC: 14 more days like today will deplete APNIC. And what happened today wasn't so extraordinary: 3 of 5 business days last week saw much greater activity. 18:13:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:21:21 -!- pumpkin has joined. 18:24:39 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:24:49 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:37:10 -!- BOI-ish has joined. 18:39:17 -!- BOI-ish has left ("ciao."). 18:41:44 Ilari: Jeeze. 18:43:25 -!- sftp has joined. 18:43:47 Last week: 0.76 blocks gone. Oh, and there are only 1.71 left. 18:44:52 Also, starting to fragment: The largest free block is 1M (which there is only 1 of). 18:46:08 28 748 288 addresses in 2 287 blocks. 18:47:39 (Not counting 103.0/8) 18:49:17 Logaritmic size: /7.223 18:50:17 Up from /7.120 before today. So +0.103. 18:50:22 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:57:06 -!- cpressey has joined. 18:58:12 Deewiant: you know what would be a really nice addition to the Mycology readme? A copy of the complete expected output for a compliant interpreter. 18:58:21 isn't it really easy to allocate blocks in a way that avoids fragmentation, as long as they aren't expanded later? 18:58:38 cpressey: there's a bunch of UNDEFs, so you couldn't just use diff 18:59:49 Huh. Linux sure nowadays has lots of kernel threads: 98 for me. 19:00:14 ais523: I realize that. Though now that you mention it, I'm not sure why undefined cases are even being tested. 19:00:39 it's to inform the user of what the case does 19:00:56 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 19:01:23 That's a nice thought, but it's not a test. 19:01:25 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:03:04 well, it /is/ a test, isn't it? 19:05:20 Not if a test either passes or fails. 19:20:15 Just saying, there's an argument for putting undefined-behavior-probing in other source file(s), and not mixing them into an otherwise unambiguous test suite. 19:21:17 And for my purposes, I can just download a copy of cfunge and see its output, since it doesn't fail out anywhere according to the results page. Hopefully easier than installing D and cmake and such :) 19:25:07 ... 19:25:52 Sure, except for the "checking it out using yet another different source-control tool" part. I am not at all sure bazaar > D 19:28:04 They're sort of both hell. 19:46:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:49:35 -!- cheater- has joined. 20:02:52 There is something deeply wack with FBBI's stack management routines. This is not news. What is news is, I think I see what it is. 20:03:38 Also, why does this coffee taste like whole wheat? That's very disturbing. 20:05:11 Perhaps it's actually mugicha (麦茶)? 20:06:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:06:47 17:22:24: * Phantom_Hoover wonders what algebraic structures are preserved. 20:06:47 17:22:46: * azaq23 has joined #esoteric. 20:07:04 Gregor: i think it would be a good idea not to use * for non-emotes, it's confusing 20:07:33 * pikhq_ thinks Gregor should use an irssi-esque output format 20:07:51 Which would entail only using * for emotes. 20:08:07 -!- for non-PRIVMSG stuff. 20:08:10 * Phantom_Hoover has joined #esoteric. 20:08:17 SUCK ON THAT, LOGREADERS 20:08:58 Phantom_Hoover: He also has logs that are essentially a filtered dump of raw IRC traffic, with times prepended. 20:14:23 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:16:26 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:22:13 -!- rapido has joined. 20:25:59 * cheater- sets mode #esoteric +b oklopol 20:26:31 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:27:38 are there an interesting 'collection oriented' language that is not apl/j/k? 20:27:46 are <- is 20:27:51 -!- augur has joined. 20:28:04 set theory. 20:28:23 lisp >:) 20:29:19 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 20:29:48 is there something like 'map theory'? I know there is something like 'array theory' 20:32:37 array theory: http://www.nial.com/ArrayTheory.html 20:33:16 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 20:33:20 ah found something: http://www.mangust.dk/skalberg/papers/gkli-slides1.pdf 20:33:25 map theorie: v 20:33:26 FUCK THIS SHIT 20:33:30 map theory: http://www.mangust.dk/skalberg/papers/gkli-slides1.pdf 20:35:14 wouldn't it be nice to have a map oriented language? 20:35:32 everything is a map - data and code 20:35:52 pikhq, oerjan: Reload 20:35:59 ? 20:36:02 rapido, map? 20:36:09 pikhq_: Logs 20:36:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:36:19 Ah. 20:36:40 much better 20:37:18 concrete map: [0=0;1=1;2=4;3=9] 20:37:20 If somebody wants to make an HTMLifier, I will not argue with them :P 20:37:33 rapido, so everything is an associative array? 20:38:03 Phantom_Hoover: yes, that's one way of phrasing it 20:38:12 rapido, finite or infinite? 20:38:17 finite! 20:38:26 I thought you meant like a map /operation/, not a map /datatype/ 20:38:28 total functions would be nice 20:38:42 It's turtles (maps) all the way down. 20:39:27 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 20:39:46 this would be a lazy map: [x<-[0..10000000];x*x] 20:40:41 still finite because the domain is finite 20:41:17 That looks more like a lazy list to me. 20:42:00 Gregor: ok, i haven't really settled for a notation 20:42:08 notation <- syntax 20:42:30 If it's just a notation issue, then I don't understand what that means X-P 20:43:34 Gregor, the map [x=>x^2] (0 <= x <= 10000000). 20:43:39 domain: 0..10000000 : range: x*x 20:44:09 Phantom_Hoover: yes - thanks 20:45:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:45:34 -!- augur has joined. 20:47:09 the domain (keys) and range (values) can be maps too. 20:47:48 In fact, literals are maps in disguise 20:48:02 there should be only maps! 20:51:23 Phantom_Hoover: Oh, OK, I wasn't getting the syntax. 20:51:23 I've done something similar with enchilada- but i like to be more restrictive than enchilada (i.e. finitie maps only) 20:51:49 rapido, so basically everything is a function from a finite sense? 20:51:51 *set 20:52:43 Phantom_Hoover: yes 20:53:23 I *think* that makes it non-TC. 20:54:29 -!- calamari has joined. 20:54:42 http://www.uclassify.com/browse/uClassify/GenderAnalyzer_v5 20:54:50 This is the funniest thing ever. 20:55:02 It seems to define maleness of writing as complexity. 20:55:13 "i have a penis" is 97% female. 20:55:46 Phantom_Hoover: i don't see why that makes it non-TC. 20:56:08 Well... it depends. 20:56:39 Phantom_Hoover: say that you have an recursive function that doesn't terminate 20:57:38 now let's imagine an interpreter that takes this same recursive function, together with a user-defined 'number of interpreter steps' 20:57:43 Phantom_Hoover: Seems that all of Hemingway's writing would be classed as female, then. 20:57:46 you could still do cons lists. 20:57:49 pikhq_, OMG YES 20:57:51 And Hemingway is 200% male. 20:58:09 when the interpreter reaches the 'number of interpreter steps' it terminates 20:58:29 [0=1; 1=[0=2; 1=[0=3; 1=[0=4; 1=[0=5; 1=[0=6; 1= 20:58:41 pikhq_, QUICK NEED SAMPLE 20:59:28 pikhq_, Hemingway is 90% female. 20:59:30 oerjan: consing can be done - nice observation 21:00:20 "That this Funge has 80 dimensions" 21:00:43 string theory funge 21:03:30 I'm just impressed that I got it to get that far. I had to rewrite a good chunk of the stack routines. They were confused about when they were supposed to allocate new memory for a stack header versus when that memory was already allocated for them. 21:04:44 cpressey, why are you doing 80-dimensional Funge? 21:05:11 Phantom_Hoover: I'm not. FBBI thinks it interprets an 80-dimensional funge. When you ask it. With 'y'. 21:05:21 According to Mycology. 21:06:03 question: how would you give a unique name to a arbitrary block of bytes without hashing (=possible collisions) and without using a central service (thing p2p) 21:06:12 thing <- think 21:07:06 oh - the same block of bytes should map always return the same name 21:08:33 rapido: I don't think it's possible. 21:09:11 Well, a perfect hash function would do it. But that's hashing. 21:09:41 And if the blocks are truly arbitrary, the only perfect hash function is identity :) 21:10:27 cpressey: incorrect, rot13 is also a perfect hash function 21:10:28 cpressey: ok, what about a central service which just increases a counter for each new block that has been issued? 21:10:35 as are many compression algorithms 21:10:48 Any function with an inverse, really. 21:10:55 (for all inputs) 21:11:38 what if we scale the central naming service to log(n) naming services - with n being the number of blocks issued? 21:12:04 or square(n)? 21:12:23 dns scales pretty good 21:12:50 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to woroyo. 21:15:23 ais523: fine -- the only pefect hash functions are permutations 21:15:37 gzip is a permutation? 21:15:43 a COMPRESSING permutation. 21:16:08 LOL JAVA: http://www.nupxl.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Fail-and-Funny-Names-batman-bin-suparman.jpg 21:17:11 cpressey: There's a large class of bijective functions. 21:17:28 Some of them aren't, strictly speaking, permutations. 21:17:46 Yes, but I'm not allowed to speak the truth. 21:18:12 Which clearly means that you are permitted to speak the truth, but opt not to. 21:18:16 cpressey: i want to achieve (function) memoization - not only within one instance of running program - but globally 21:18:24 rapido: No. 21:18:44 rapido: Universal memoization is not as good an idea as you may think. 21:18:46 pikhq_: no? 21:18:57 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:19:48 Hmm, shouldn't compressing a compressed file increase its size? 21:19:58 no 21:20:03 pikhq_: it doesn't need to be persistent always - just the most used functions (structures) 21:20:05 Phantom_Hoover: Not *necessarily*. 21:20:29 rapido: Automatic memoization is a *hard* problem. 21:20:38 -!- impomatic has joined. 21:20:40 pikhq_: isn't a bijection called a permutation if the set is infinite? 21:20:49 Phantom_Hoover: compressing a compressed file may not always be possible 21:20:54 pikhq_: 'memoization is a *hard* problem' - i like that! 21:21:06 one still need to provide a minimum amount of information 21:21:12 variable, it arguably *shouldn't* be possible given a perfect compression algorithm. 21:21:24 Phantom_Hoover: There's no such thing. 21:21:34 rapido: At least as hard as parallel computing. 21:21:47 pikhq_: i'm the author of enchilada - i have done some 'experiments' on the subject. 21:21:50 Phantom_Hoover: Information theory discuses the absolute minimums and maximums as relate to compression 21:21:59 Phantom_Hoover: A "perfect" compression algorithm is a bijective mapping from a larger set to a smaller set. 21:22:04 Phantom_Hoover: Which is of course impossible. 21:22:07 oklopol: a bijection is called a permutation if the set is FINITE 21:22:24 pikhq_, hence I'm defining "perfect" far more fuzzily. 21:22:25 oklopol: you usually don't talk about permutations of infinite sets 21:22:34 " are there an interesting 'collection oriented' language that is not apl/j/k?" <<< toi 21:22:45 * variable is writing a BF compiler using llvm ... should be fun how to use llvm :-) 21:22:52 Phantom_Hoover: And I define addition to mean fish blue purple flimble boob. 21:22:53 i want to get rid of enchilada's cryptographic hashes - but still scale in a distributed setup 21:23:34 oklopol: that's just your toi project 21:23:59 " oklopol: ?" <<< sometimes one needs to o 21:24:09 o 21:24:11 o 21:24:18 o 21:24:24 o 21:24:27 |\ 21:24:28 \ 21:25:16 oklopol: is there a interesting 'collection oriented' language that is also esoteric ;) 21:25:45 " oklopol: a bijection is called a permutation if the set is FINITE" <<< i was not aware of this 21:26:06 at least in group theory, this convention is not always followed 21:26:26 people speak of permutation representations even for infinite gruplers 21:26:26 every bijection of a finite set is always a permutation. 21:26:38 oh ok yeah, but that's a different sense 21:26:54 then you're talking about permutations of structured sets.. groups etc 21:27:06 not "just sets" 21:27:20 permutation and bijection are synonyms, but i wouldn't be surprised if people only use it for say up to countable infinity 21:27:34 i mean. the former. 21:27:51 " then you're talking about permutations of structured sets.. groups etc" <<< no, sets 21:28:06 it wouldn't feel natural to me to call hilbert hotel a permutation for example 21:28:09 permutation representation = representing the group as a set of permutations 21:28:17 a permutation of a set is not itself a set 21:28:18 that's not a permutation? 21:28:20 i mean 21:28:26 btw, permutation is only when it's a bijection onto itself 21:28:29 do you mean the thing where everything is shifted 21:28:33 oklopol: yes 21:28:36 that's an injection but not a bijection 21:28:42 so of course it's not a permutation 21:28:53 oklopol: untruth 21:29:26 i thought the hilbert hotel thing was that you have a sequence indexed by N and you shift it to obtain empty rooms 21:29:52 how is that a bijection 21:30:09 " btw, permutation is only when it's a bijection onto itself" <<< oh, well this is certainly true 21:30:19 oklopol: imagine Z^2 where (0, c=const) is injected into (c, 0) and (c, v=var) is hilberted vertically 21:30:38 and then the empty space is collapsed 21:31:00 erm, you're describing a random bijection? 21:31:03 or what's your point 21:31:13 yes, bijections exist 21:31:15 i described a bijection which uses the hilbert hotel principle 21:31:18 id also works 21:31:30 to show you it's not always an injection 21:31:36 without being surjective 21:31:48 well then just shift Z 21:32:34 ...a bijection is always injective. 21:32:56 but okay, you don't consider self-bijections of even countable sets worthy of the name permutation, that's all you wanted to say i suppose 21:33:42 oerjan: he meant using hilbert hotel principle doesn't always give you something that is an injection without being surjective 21:33:49 don't surjectively inject your hilbert hotel principle into the discussion - please! 21:34:25 oerjan: what if some REALLY complicated and SURPRISING bijections aren't injective? 21:34:33 can you really know? 21:35:18 oklopol: A bijection is an injection and a surjection, by definition. 21:35:22 and don't just say "they're injective by definition", things don't become true if you define them to be true 21:35:33 yeah pikhq_ takes the easy way out 21:35:36 lol 21:35:54 Things do become true if we define them to be true. 21:36:08 At least in the context where it's defined to be true. 21:36:36 oerjan: in the theory of CA, we say G is time symmetric if there is an involution I such that G^(-1) = IGI, is this a common concept elsewhere? 21:37:15 time-symmetry includes lots of things that consist of particles, for instance, it's an interesting concept 21:37:32 but i don't recall seeing anything exactly like it anywhere 21:37:40 then again what the fuck do i know, that's why i'm asking 21:38:00 involution? 21:38:09 pikhq_: yeah right, next u gonna say the reals are uncountable lol 21:38:19 oerjan: sorry I is an involution if I^2 = id 21:38:28 where maybe i should've named things differently 21:38:35 oklopol: No, I'm going to say the naturals are countable. 21:38:36 :) 21:38:36 if you can apply it to a CA, I would be surprised if you couldn't apply it to any semantics, with enough effort 21:38:37 i know but why not just G^(-1) = IGI^-1 ? 21:38:49 oerjan: well sure, that works too 21:39:02 um are they equivalent 21:39:18 really? 21:39:28 what are equivalent exactly? 21:39:29 THAT WAS A QUESTION 21:39:34 oh sorry 21:39:38 i read "um they are equivalent" 21:39:47 no i don't see why that definition would be equivalent 21:40:03 well why then did you say "that works too" 21:40:07 but yeah the idea is you conjugate with I to get G's complement 21:40:16 oerjan: sorry, i meant like "well sure, you can generalize it" 21:40:20 that's the word, conjugate 21:40:36 oerjan's looks like a conjugate. oklopol's doesn't. 21:40:43 but i don't know from conjugates 21:40:43 i recall using the word anti-conjugate or something like that 21:41:29 http://www.space.com/7044-moon-apollo-astronauts-customs.html 21:41:31 Fucking customs. 21:42:01 it popped up in one of the basic theorems we looked at, an orbit equivalence with continuous cocycles is always either a conjugation or an anti-conjugation 21:42:05 oerjan: you don't recall anything with involutions tho? 21:42:07 are there any CA formalism that takes previous (N not just the current) world states as input? 21:42:17 oklopol: no. 21:42:42 fungot 21:42:43 Phantom_Hoover: i've only sometimes talked to him and started pulling his boots and kecks off.") well, i'll call is something different, though. 21:42:58 rapido: no, but those are essentially the same thing 21:43:16 * cheater- pulls oklopol's kecks off 21:43:30 btw, i noticed lately that knuth defined some numbers of negative base 21:43:33 which is fun 21:43:36 -!- MUILTFN_ has joined. 21:43:40 he also proved some fun properties about them 21:44:05 surely someone has defined such a construction (running n generations simultaneously), for instance the block representation, that is, remembering neighbors in cells, and higher block representations, compressing blocks of n into single symbols, are used a lot in symbolic dynamics 21:44:12 finally, something with which I can describe my bank balance 21:44:39 that was in response to cheater-'s comment, but now I want it to have applied to what oklopol just said 21:44:40 oklopol: could such formalism be more powerful - not in a TC sense - but in a 'programming' sense - whatever that means 21:44:53 is there any variant of brainfruck that lets the user make syscalls? 21:45:00 or call external C functions? 21:45:02 but i've read more about symbolic dynamics than CA, and in symbolic dynamics, you always just run your CA for exactly one step :) 21:45:12 rapido: mcell has some "ca families" that use memory 21:45:13 you want a brainfuck FFI? 21:45:15 variable: I don't know, but, yes 21:45:35 oerjan: thanks for the pointer 21:45:37 but in theory that just gives a more compact representation 21:46:18 rapido: well i haven't seen them used, at least 21:46:20 cpressey: ? 21:46:30 (i think) 21:46:31 cheater-: yes 21:46:51 but actually, remembering your neighborhood is essentially just what you described, for the shift CA 21:46:52 :P 21:46:57 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_base < haha, a practical use of intercal 21:47:11 so you just generalized one of the key concepts of everything to do with sequences! 21:47:13 the russians built a computer once that was in balanced ternary 21:47:40 Zwaarddijk: i heard of it 21:47:41 Zwaarddijk: yes - it was expensive & unstable 21:47:42 so the different values were -1, 0, 1 21:47:45 wasn't that in the 80s or something 21:47:53 possibly earlier, but yeah, expensie & unstable. 21:48:04 cheater-: I already have a practical use of INTERCAL 21:48:10 what is it. 21:48:21 whenever someone asks me what language to learn first I have a good answer 21:48:25 :-p 21:48:34 i like surreal numbers 21:48:51 surreal number subsume all numbers 21:49:00 number <- numbers 21:49:12 ...well not _all_ numbers 21:49:15 i liked the definition of hyperreal numbers 21:49:25 i don't know their definition 21:49:26 hyperreal? ah yeah! 21:49:30 Index finger -> cat nose is like the human<->cat equivalent of a fist-bump. 21:49:50 oklopol: a formal definition of things like dx, dy, 0+, 0-, and so on 21:49:51 the basic definition doesn't include complex numbers, although you can probably complete it 21:49:56 cheater-: i know that 21:50:08 it's based off sequences. 21:50:08 and i doubt it includes p-adics 21:50:08 i also know astrophysics is about space and stuff 21:50:26 and that sex is about doing things under the blanket 21:50:28 oklopol: that's all u need 21:50:39 same for quaternions 21:50:44 although they do indeed include real numbers and transfinite ordinals 21:51:12 well aren't surreals meant to make the real line as long as humanly possible 21:51:14 or biquaternions 21:51:37 cheater-: yeah i know the usual definition is based on ultrafilters 21:51:45 oklopol: i'm not sure that was the original motivation... 21:52:05 but including ordinals does pretty much ensure that 21:52:18 http://chc60.fgcu.edu/images/articles/Marczynski.pdf < lol cool!! 21:52:20 check it out 21:52:36 RAM made out of acoustically induced mercury. wtf? 21:52:37 what is it 21:52:47 interesting 21:53:02 liquidated memory 21:54:00 " oklopol: that's all u need" <<< you know how fucking annoying it is when people learn about hyperreals and suddenly they can do their calculus without thinking altogether because "hey, this can be made formal, stick that epsilon up your ass!" 21:54:17 -!- rapido has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:54:21 i'll tell ya: slightly. 21:54:27 oklopol: why is it annoying 21:54:51 oklopol: is it because you wish you had learnt about it earlier? 21:55:00 because that's like saying "hey, there is a god, therefore i don't have to think about the details" 21:55:08 all they have learned is the term hyperreal 21:55:08 oklopol, what's the problem with using hyperreals over limits? 21:55:21 Phantom_Hoover: nothing, but no one ever uses them 21:55:37 oklopol: so what you mean is that people learn about hyperreals and suddenly they THINK they can do their calculus without thinking altogether 21:55:45 oklopol: rite 21:55:47 ? 21:56:04 cheater-: yes 21:56:11 sorry 21:56:12 ok, that's different. 21:56:19 yeah, you'd better be sorry 21:56:22 beg for forgiveness.. 21:56:25 >:D 21:56:27 equal rites 21:56:31 well i am very sorry. 21:56:42 how sorry? 21:56:48 dunno, quite? 21:56:55 we bought a whiteboard today 21:56:57 hmm 21:56:57 he's finnish. he's sorry by definition. 21:57:00 i guess quite is ok. 21:57:06 oerjan: hahah 21:57:52 apparently hyperreals make calculus rather nice and intuitive 21:57:58 i've seen a few examples 21:58:01 of using them 21:58:07 -!- rapido has joined. 21:58:29 do they make gabriel's horn make any more sense? 21:58:42 what's gabriel's horn? 21:58:47 i'll wp 21:58:56 sorry, it's just that you said "nice and intuitive" and "calculus" in the same sentence, and that's the first thing I thought of 21:59:05 or "horn of gabriel" iirc 21:59:23 oh it's that retarded thing 22:00:39 It's the integral from 1 to infinity of 1/x, isn't it? 22:01:09 yeah 22:01:12 It's an infinite object with finite volume but infinite surface area, or vice versa, I forget which. 22:01:22 and it's really unintuitive that the infinite line is infinitely long, but that part under it is finite 22:01:27 finite area 22:01:31 infinte volume 22:01:41 Zwaarddijk, wrong way 'round. 22:01:59 of course you have to rotate it 2pi to make the "paradox" slightly less ridiculous 22:03:27 s/2pi/tau/ 22:04:27 Anyways. Calculus gets some pretty surprising *results*, though many of the concepts actually do make some intuitive sense. 22:04:52 pikhq_: tau? 22:04:53 Although you can create similarly weird things even easier with fractals. 22:05:33 cheater-: tau=2pi 22:05:53 is there a fractal based esoteric language? 22:05:56 pikhq_: since when? 22:06:09 (gabriel's horn is not weird) 22:06:10 oklopol: how is it unintuitive? 22:06:16 'living on the edge' which is infinite 22:06:20 cheater-: it's not, i was being sarcastic 22:06:22 oklopol: what about the idea of filling a square with a curve? 22:06:29 ok 22:06:34 cheater-: now that's slightly surprising 22:06:43 at least was for me back in the day 22:07:00 cheater-: Recent proposal of an alternate circle constant, which is a bit more elegant. 22:07:05 EVERYONE: I'M FINE WITH YOU BEING AMAZED AT HILBERT'S SPACE-FILLING CURVE 22:07:12 well my intuition is that if i take a DIN A4 white page of paper and try to make it completely black with just a ball pen, it will take so much time i will FAIL 22:07:30 pikhq_: is that like New Math 22:08:21 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Math 22:08:23 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:08:30 oklopol: for your benefit: OH WOW 22:08:31 In the Algebra preface of his book "Precalculus Mathematics in a Nutshell," Professor George F. Simmons wrote that the New Math produced students who had "heard of the commutative law, but did not know the multiplication table." 22:08:34 :D 22:08:37 Phantom_Hoover: wikipedia agrees with me! 22:08:43 It's just that the ratio of a circle's circumference to its radius makes more sense when we don't care about the diameter. 22:08:45 oh wait no it don't 22:08:49 rapido, well, there were the Sierpiński numbers... 22:10:14 Phantom_Hoover: aaah, a new number system to learn....... how many are there? 22:10:27 uncountably many. 22:10:32 rapido, it's countably infinite. 22:10:33 http://twitpic.com/3nt8eh/full Hilbert Curve bomber in Core War :-) 22:10:35 < rapido> is there a fractal based esoteric language? <-- I know there were a few that got to the "planning" stage, but I don't know of any complete ones 22:10:40 Well, not really. 22:10:43 what the fuck at the "Examples" 22:10:49 It's uncountable, actually. 22:11:06 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:11:15 i don't like infinite/uncountable stuff - but hey - i'' make an exception 22:11:16 is there a fractal based esoteric language? <-- i'm pretty sure there was one but i don't remember the name 22:12:18 I know calamari wanted to make one. And I have a half-idea for one. And you could make an argument that anything based on a tree has self-similarity and whatever 22:12:27 rapido, well, just restrict it to finite strings. 22:12:36 the only known proofs of the undecidability of the reversibility of CA in dimensions greater than 1 are based on the hilbert curve 22:13:24 (afaik at least) 22:13:46 wat's CA? 22:13:51 cellular automaton 22:13:53 meaning, if, given an arbitrary CA, if you could decide whether it was reversible or not, you could solve the HP? 22:14:03 cpressey: what? 22:14:04 :D 22:14:15 oklopol: is that what you mean by "the undecidability of the reversibility of CA"? 22:14:28 the reduction is from the tiling problem 22:14:35 that is, given a set of wang tiles, is there a tiling of the plane 22:14:36 HP: Hilbert Problem? 22:14:38 that's not what i asked 22:14:49 HP=halting problem 22:14:57 cpressey: that's the problem of deciding, given a CA, whether it is invertible 22:15:03 oh halting problem, sorry 22:15:12 yes, it means exactly that 22:15:15 ok 22:15:23 i thought HP was hilbert curve :D 22:15:27 because i read it as HC 22:15:39 NEXT TIME I WILL TYPE THE P MORE CLEARLY 22:15:43 thank you 22:15:57 i like reversible languages: enchilada is reversible (modulo hash collisions) 22:17:02 wasn't the Halting Problem - essentially Hilbert's Problem? 22:17:06 * oklopol is sad that no one asked for details :'( 22:17:17 rapido: well not really 22:17:30 but at least one of his great problems turned out to be undecidable 22:18:06 Which one? 22:18:15 the one about diophantine equations 22:18:18 iirc 22:18:33 Ah yeah. 22:18:39 what the exact problem was, i do not remember, however 22:18:46 presumably whether they have solutions 22:21:23 what is this with matrix multiplication?- that the most optimum algorithm for general kxk * kxk multiplication is cannot be algorithmically be constructed? (Ω(k^2logk) and this has to do with group theory? 22:22:06 i'm not following you 22:23:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:24:09 you cannot find an optimal (generic) matrix multiplication algorithm for an arbitrary size of matrices 22:24:36 that somehow seems unsurprising 22:24:50 oerjan: for time-reversibility you get a fun characterization: the time-reversible CA are exactly the ones that are the composition of two involutions 22:24:59 which is of course rather clear from the definition 22:25:00 cpressey: i find it rather surprising 22:26:38 i can't really comment on rapido's statement without knowing more details, with my definition of the concepts, that is trivially true: there is always a faster algorithm 22:27:10 cpressey: yeah.. I never go a good idea on how to make a fractal language.. I wanted it all to fit together perfectly, rther than feeling tacked on 22:27:21 oklopol: are you referring to the speedup theorem? yeah, but i never understood that one, either 22:27:32 oh hey calamari 22:28:18 yeah, it's not a simple thing to design well... i certainly haven't gotten very far with my idea, and it's not even a very ambitious interpretation 22:28:33 calamari: what should be the ingredients of a good fractal language? 22:28:34 cpressey: the speedup theorem is a rather trivial consequence of the fact we can add arbitrarily many states to our turing machines, and that we can have arbitrarily big alphabets 22:28:52 I also felt it needed to provide a bit of data creation.. what I mean is like mandelbrot where it's self-similar but not exactly 22:29:05 just compress the given word to say 1/1000000 of its original size, and do computation 1000000 times faster 22:29:15 because you can fit 1000000 symbols in one cell 22:29:20 by having a bigger alphabet 22:29:36 would we recognize pi if it were in base 31? 22:29:43 oh, is that all. i got the impression it was much more profound than that. 22:30:07 i imagine your cs lecturer has succesfully hidden the fact the speedup theorem is fucking obvious by adding tons of details before mentioning the general idea. 22:30:12 why base 31? 22:30:37 calamari: because 31 is insignificant :) 22:31:05 cpressey: there are very profound things that have to do with speeding things up, but this is certainly not one of them 22:31:12 did they ever figure out how to convert that arbitrary digit algorithm to base 10? 22:31:27 or did they decide it wasn't possible? 22:32:30 there's also a speed-up theorem that says something like, if you have a computable function f, then there exists a recursive language L such that for any algorithm you make for it, there exists another algorithm that is f(n) times faster on an input of size n 22:32:42 like in the limit 22:32:45 or something crazy like that 22:33:14 hey! - what about memoization of numbers and functions (that produce numbers), irrespective of base? 22:33:28 " would we recognize pi if it were in base 31?" <<< no 22:33:56 the bases up to 100424 have been tried. but maybe 100425 does it, you could be a pioneer. 22:34:35 what about a complex base? 22:34:53 we actually just had a lecture series about the expansions of constants 22:34:59 try base e 22:35:17 i don't think we know anything about pi 22:35:26 calamari: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey%E2%80%93Borwein%E2%80%93Plouffe_formula#The_search_for_new_equalities is a little confusing 22:35:29 but e has a rather simple continued fraction 22:35:44 lol so does pi 22:36:21 sorry i left that kinda open 22:36:39 well whatever, i don't recall the details 22:36:49 or do i... 22:37:01 ...but pi doesn't have a rather simple simple continued fraction 22:37:17 the best compression of pi is to recognize it in disguise. 22:37:17 it converges horribly.. but it's simple :) 22:37:48 calamari: note, two "simple" there 22:38:00 it's simple to understand, but it's not simple to work with, at least it doesn't help for the that particular lecturer was using the digits 22:38:05 but let me look up the sequence 22:38:07 I see 22:38:11 maybe i can point out the complication 22:38:19 apparently simple is a specific math term 22:38:21 i believe you can calculate the n'th digit of pi without calculating it's previous digits? 22:38:32 generalized continued fraction 22:38:49 rapido: yes, hex digit 22:38:55 rapido: in binary, what we're talking about is whether you can do it in base 10 or so 22:39:17 that section i linked may or may not imply that base 3 is known... 22:40:13 Deewiant: You'll be happy* to know that FBBI makes it to the end of Mycology, now, with "only" 9 BADs. (*Feel free to substitute the emotion of your choice here.) 22:40:34 wait what 22:40:45 i'm finding a very weird continued fraction for pi 22:40:49 i thought it was rather simple 22:41:00 " ...but pi doesn't have a rather simple simple continued fraction" 22:41:01 hmm 22:41:48 i have an idea for a fractal language 22:42:02 when you zoom in to the border 22:42:37 the 'result' of your specified program will be more and more accurate 22:43:02 but you never reach the 'ultimate' solution of your algorithm 22:43:07 rapido: just be sure that it is capable of writing a fractal encryption code unbreakable by the borg.. otherwise the future of humanity is put at risk 22:43:09 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 22:43:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:43:13 a rather simple simple simple continued fractal 22:43:33 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:43:34 the littlewood conjecture is true for all pairs (e, x), since the continued fraction representation of e contains arbitrarily large numbers 22:43:54 btw: the algorithm specification is also nearing the optimal algorithm - but not quite - fractal wise 22:44:53 hmmm - let me iterate on that 22:45:08 f(s,n)=s/n+f(-s,n+2) is not a continued fraction, but it is rather simple 22:45:51 i know continued fractions (vaguely from uni) 22:46:07 i don't like them. they wet their nests 22:46:08 i know very little about them 22:46:14 Why hasn't elliott been here in a while? 22:46:26 cpressey: um do you have your precedence right there 22:46:31 Sgeo: he left in a huff 22:46:43 oerjan: i... think so? 22:47:03 f(s,n)=(s/n)+f(-s,n+2) ? 22:47:21 um... does / not come before +? 22:47:40 not in most PLs i am familiar with 22:47:44 are we being concatenative? 22:48:13 it's usually the same precedence as * 22:48:13 @help 22:48:14 help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands 22:48:18 @list 22:48:18 http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS 22:48:35 > 1/2+3 22:48:35 @hello 22:48:35 Maybe you meant: help tell 22:48:35 3.5 22:48:49 most definitely not in haskell 22:49:22 > (1/2)+3 22:49:23 3.5 22:49:32 so 1/2+3 = (1/2)+3 22:49:37 yes 22:49:39 so / comes before + 22:50:00 cpressey: um i thought you were disagreeing with my adding parentheses above? 22:50:09 so s/n+f() = (s/n)+f() 22:50:16 so why did you add parens? 22:50:20 "comes before" is not a term i can understand clearly 22:50:26 is evaluated before 22:50:41 cpressey: because you were talking about continued fractions and they use a/(b+c) 22:50:54 i also said it was not a continued fraction 22:51:05 it's just a recurrence 22:51:07 ALL RIGHT THEN 22:51:07 a precedence and parentheses - you don't have that 'problem' with 'concatenate' languages (or apl/k/j) 22:51:08 but it's pi/4 22:51:27 CONFUSION REIGNS. ALL HAIL THE OMNIGOAT 22:52:22 of course this means we need an esolang where the precedence varies in a difficult-to-predict way 22:52:27 possibly depending on the values involved 22:52:33 cpressey: also in haskell "is evaluated before" is rather distinct from precedence >:) 22:52:53 *omni🐐 22:52:58 yeah, yeah 22:53:25 Uhh, evaluation order is distinct from precedence in many, perhaps most languages. 22:53:27 also in haskell 'is evaluated whenever' is rather not related to precedence ;) 22:53:35 Yeah :P 22:53:53 it's kind of hard to evaluate what x+3 is without first evaluating x, though 22:53:56 of course this means we need an esolang where the precedence varies in a difficult-to-predict way <-- i think oklopol had something like that 22:53:56 for a while now i've been trying to make a language where every little change in the program changes EVERYTHING, yet somehow you can program in the language 22:54:08 no locality. what i tried to do with toi, but failed 22:54:16 oerjan: ah cise 22:54:20 well 22:54:22 cpressey: But it's easy to evaluate x+y*z in the order x->y->z instead of y->z->x 22:54:24 cpressey: i like x to be free - let us be free 22:54:38 Erm 22:54:39 in cise, there's no precedence, the first correct parse is used 22:54:43 Right, yeah 22:54:56 oklopol: you have - reference - to ..... toi ? 22:54:59 url ? 22:55:17 rapido: it should be on the wiki 22:55:24 no, oklopol is fundamentally opposed to revealing his languages in anything other than irc babbling 22:55:30 an oklopol quality article, i'm sure 22:55:41 erm, i'm pretty sure toi has an article? 22:56:03 oklopol: DON'T LET YOUR PUNY FACTS GET IN THE WAY OF MY STEREOTYPING 22:56:05 i'm totally a wiki-using grown up nowadays 22:56:07 on *the* wiki? 22:56:12 on the wiki, yes 22:56:18 sorry didn't realize you were a total noob lol :PPPPp 22:56:24 the esolang wiki 22:56:27 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:56:33 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 22:56:56 Toi (the name means nothing 22:57:42 Don't believe it. It's short for T(ower of Han)oi 22:57:48 Brackets have to match, otherwise everything's a legal program ????? 22:57:50 At least, that's what I always think of, when I read it 22:58:17 :D 22:58:26 i'm not sure that's entirely true .DS 22:58:49 or maybe it is 22:59:11 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 23:00:18 '(A{B}' is a type of for-each. For each s in S the Toi program A is run with s as the context. 23:00:42 the context concept is a bit underdeveloped (documentation wise) 23:01:06 each run of a toi program has a context, that just means you recursively call the interpreter with another context 23:01:25 i thought that was clear but yeah i guess it's a weird way to explain things 23:01:50 maybe "the toi program A is run with s as the initial context" 23:02:11 what, all that drama over a bot? 23:03:55 and who is Herobrine? wait, I forgot -- I don't really care 23:04:07 evening, folks. 23:04:10 that. 23:04:14 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:05:13 cpressey is in CET timezone? : +00 hours here in the Netherlands - morning folks - later 23:05:40 -!- rapido has quit (Quit: rapido). 23:10:23 oklolol: what do you find ultrafilters are most useful for? 23:11:34 cheater-: what's an ultrafilter? 23:12:11 cheater-: yeah i know the usual definition is based on ultrafilters 23:12:15 UH HUH 23:12:17 well i do know that 23:12:19 someone's using big words 23:12:59 erm, just before that you said they are based on sequences 23:13:15 granted, i'm sure you know what sequences are 23:13:18 sequences are not a big word 23:13:18 :D 23:13:20 but i don't think that's relevant 23:13:24 like, at all 23:13:36 that was the point i was making 23:13:39 you think sequences are irrelevant to hyperreals? 23:13:55 no, ultrafilters are some kind of sequences, i assumed you meant them but didn't know the big word 23:14:13 ultrafilters are not sequences 23:14:20 whereas i talked to this prof once who does nonstandard analysis and i managed to copypaste a pretty cool word. 23:14:37 oerjan: oh? what were they then? 23:14:45 not even nets, although they are related a bit 23:14:45 i have this really vague recall 23:15:02 actually it's so vague i can't really put it into words 23:15:10 no, i meant sequences. 23:15:10 something about the natural numbers and somthing 23:15:11 The ultrapower construction 23:15:11 We are going to construct a hyperreal field via sequences of reals. In fact we can add and multiply sequences componentwise; for example: 23:15:12 *something 23:15:20 (and so on) 23:15:25 ultrapower construction :D 23:15:30 that's pretty awesome 23:15:36 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperreal_number < read here 23:15:42 no i won't 23:15:50 YOU read it 23:15:56 i think landen or zeno linked me to an old article about that somewhere on the net 23:15:59 an ultrafilter in X is a family of subsets of X such that (1) for every subset of X, either it or its complement is a member (2) a superset of a member is a member 23:16:03 oklopol: ? 23:16:05 oh right 23:16:07 iirc 23:16:10 oklopol: are you like being aggressive or something 23:16:16 that's what it was 23:16:25 equivalently, it's a maximal filter 23:16:26 cheater-: no i don't know what i'm doing 23:16:34 oklopol: are you on drugs 23:16:36 really you should not listen to anything i say unless you're in a similar state of mind 23:16:38 no 23:16:44 oklopol: you should be then 23:16:50 why? 23:16:52 oh 23:16:54 right 23:16:56 yeah i suppose 23:16:56 yes. 23:17:08 i haven't been diagnosed 23:17:11 hm (3) the intersection of two members is a member. i think. 23:17:24 i was rather thinking of you getting some weed to help with the jitteriness 23:17:39 but i guess you can get the medical kind too 23:17:39 :D 23:17:41 or maybe that's redundant 23:17:59 oerjan: okay how do you use them? also that's a pretty cool set 23:18:10 one damn cool set to say the least 23:18:22 i'd say it is 23:18:38 oklopol: a non-principal ultrafilter is one that isn't just the supersets of a fixed point. 23:19:17 makes sense 23:19:25 no it doesn't 23:19:28 yes it does 23:19:31 requires the axiom of choice to find 23:19:33 no u 23:19:57 principal = cyclic = generated by one thing, usually, here it means we just look at one element to know whether the set is in the ultrafilter 23:20:03 i mean 23:20:08 principal ultrafilter is that 23:20:25 then it is obvious that the S or S^c is in the ultrafilter 23:20:35 *-the 23:20:38 *+ for all sets S 23:21:01 aren't the consequent iterations of the cantor set an ultrafilter 23:21:47 i doubt it, even though i don't understand it 23:22:05 oerjan: ? 23:22:07 iterations implies countable, and cantor set implies uncountable space 23:22:09 ...what's a consequent iteration 23:22:17 oerjan: the first iteration, second iteration, etc 23:22:37 those put together as a family of sets would make an ultrafilter, no? 23:23:02 you mean when you take away the middle, then the middle of each interval of that, etc? 23:23:05 and ultrafilters are rather fucking big in uncountable spaces so that obviously cannot happen 23:23:39 i hope that's not what he meant 23:23:41 in which case, no, that's not an ultrafilter, not even a filter although you can make one by adding supersets 23:24:07 filter = closed under supersets and closed under finite meets or what? 23:24:11 erm 23:24:17 kinda mixing up terminology there 23:24:20 yes, i think 23:24:32 Introduction 23:24:32 The notion of I -ultrafilter was introduced in Baumgartner [1995]: Let I be a family of 23:24:32 subsets of a set X such that I contains all singletons and is closed under subsets. Given a free 23:24:32 ultrafilter U on ω, we say that U is an I -ultrafilter if for any F : ω → X there is A ∈ U such 23:24:32 that F [A] ∈ I . 23:24:32 Baumgartner defined in his article discrete ultrafilters, scattered ultrafilters, measure zero 23:24:35 ultrafilters and nowhere dense ultrafilters which he obtained by taking X = 2ω , the Cantor set, 23:24:36 and I the collection of discrete sets, scattered sets, sets with closure of measure zero, nowhere 23:24:38 dense sets respectively. 23:25:06 seems he's constructing ultrafilters from the cantor set somehow 23:26:00 um the cantor set is the whole space, i take 23:26:02 but it's too late for me to understand the details :D 23:26:15 oerjan: hmm yeah probably 23:26:48 what's omega there 23:26:59 a set that's really big? 23:27:12 http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:K61LyUFCLG0J:home.zcu.cz/~flaskova/research/MArevised.pdf+cantor+set+ultrafilter&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjixG3WoyeYkUp79ujAGyHYhuM0avEL0uWdPbKyIkndXxySqzxUjkOB1S7WvUBXj-LDrrgwZD8PsqdycbHBuBbqP6YjjvWYvnYwAZQLD5DWfm7Xle-Ha_OcV-qTFCVP4DHI80SN&sig=AHIEtbQZCLkVGCtAe7rB005CWzF7DPbnlQ 23:27:43 tbh i would love to know too oklopol 23:28:01 i fear this secret might end up never being revealed 23:28:21 unless oerjan bothers to tell us lowly noobs what it means 23:28:42 in any case i think non-principal ultrafilters definitely require the axiom of choice 23:29:34 (i think "every filter has a larger ultrafilter" is probably equivalent to AoC) 23:30:18 ultrafiltersssssssssssssssssssssssssssss 23:38:03 btw is it a xor, like exactly one of S and S^c is in the ultrafilter? 23:38:24 because i totally just realized that's kinda important 23:41:58 yes. otherwise the empty set would be a member and that's disallowed for filters 23:43:27 that is indeed true 23:43:35 good one man :DDDDD 23:46:27 but umm isn't an ultrafilter just a filter you can't add any elements to 23:46:42 yes. 23:46:50 so it's enough to show an increasing union of filters is a filter 23:46:52 hmmhmm 23:46:57 i suppose that's obvious, but lemme check 23:47:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:47:09 yeah it's easy with zorn's lemma 23:47:15 yeah 23:47:36 it's obvious that union of filters is a filter 23:47:50 and yeah zorn's lemma is what i need the increasing unions for 23:47:51 *increasing 23:48:22 well i said so a few lines above and i was too busy to write that complicated word a second time 23:48:51 yeah i'm not sure it's at all obvious that the union of filters in general is a filter 23:49:03 partly because that's not true 23:49:34 " equivalently, it's a maximal filter" <<< whoops 23:49:35 YOU'D THINK 23:49:55 it's not true, i'm pretty sure 23:50:08 ...just take two different principal ones 23:50:21 yeah, that's why i'm pretty sure 23:50:42 because i had just proven it by taking two different principal filters 23:50:52 O KAY 23:51:02 well seriously 23:51:29 i'm not nearly as stupid as i look 23:52:20 *gasp* 23:52:36 :D 23:52:51 oh shit it's 2 am 23:53:39 i wish i had one of those practise tennis balls 23:53:59 a ball that you can throw against the wall without a sound being made our of this event 23:54:02 *out 23:55:25 then i could throw it against the wall from morning till dawn