←2011-01-16 2011-01-17 2011-01-18→ ↑2011 ↑all
00:00:02 <elliott> objects are pages
00:00:07 <elliott> morphisms are ... redirections!
00:00:14 <j-invariant> youcan be the next paul graham
00:00:19 <elliott> lol
00:00:37 <elliott> i'll use lots of template haskell, so nobody can read it without first studying every macro
00:00:39 <Sgeo> elliott, what's your prediction about Haskell?
00:00:40 <elliott> like paul graham did!
00:00:45 <elliott> Sgeo:
00:00:49 <elliott> @quote web frameworks
00:00:49 <lambdabot> No quotes for this person. BOB says: You seem to have forgotten your passwd, enter another!
00:00:52 <elliott> @quote 2009
00:00:53 <lambdabot> int-e says: I propose that all of f, g, h and i be made illegal. (referring to http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/haskell-prime/wiki/StricterLabelledFieldSyntax as it existed on 2009-10-05)
00:00:57 <elliott> @quote 2009
00:00:57 <lambdabot> int-e says: I propose that all of f, g, h and i be made illegal. (referring to http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/haskell-prime/wiki/StricterLabelledFieldSyntax as it existed on 2009-10-05)
00:01:03 <elliott> @quote Combinatorial
00:01:03 <lambdabot> ehird says: 2009: The Year of the Combinatorial Explosion of Haskell Web Frameworks. Also, the Linux Desktop.
00:01:05 <elliott> Sgeo: ^
00:01:15 <elliott> ok so it's not 2009 any more, but who cares
00:01:24 <Sgeo> There's a Haskell web framework in the works, isn't there?
00:01:30 <elliott> There are thousands :P
00:01:43 <Sgeo> There's only one that I heard of >.>
00:01:51 <elliott> http://snapframework.com/
00:01:51 <elliott> http://docs.yesodweb.com/
00:01:55 <elliott> http://happstack.com/index.html
00:02:26 <elliott> Sgeo: happstack is the maintained fork of the dead-but-famous HAppS
00:02:31 <elliott> http://happs.org/
00:02:38 <Ilari> About throwing up that weetabix
00:02:53 <elliott> Ilari: But Weetabix is delicious!
00:03:00 <elliott> Delicious like CEREAL BLOCK
00:03:42 <elliott> j-invariant: lol, what have I done, I'm actually writing example code for a web framework now :(
00:03:46 <elliott> i think this makes me a bad person
00:03:49 <elliott> but at least i'm optimising for insanity
00:03:55 <elliott> marketing:
00:03:59 <elliott> The perfect web framework for type theorists!
00:04:26 <elliott> Ph.D. getting you nowhere? Have to take a job in the web development industry? We feel your pain. And we're going to give you some more!
00:04:58 <Sgeo> Snap's the only one I heard of
00:05:12 <elliott> Probably because Snap is the one with the obnoxious Ruby-style marketing flash.
00:05:39 <elliott> j-invariant: D.entity [d| data Item = Item { text :: String } |]
00:05:48 <elliott> j-invariant: guess what this does? hint: the answer is not "define text :: Item -> String"
00:05:55 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:06:17 <elliott> (that would be the obvious thing)
00:06:21 <elliott> (and therefore wrong, in this context)
00:06:44 <Sgeo> elliott, better than haXe, which seems to be an entire LANGUAGE based on marketting flash
00:07:29 <j-invariant> elliott well it must creaet an HTML tag for this data type
00:07:33 <elliott> j-invariant: LOL
00:07:39 <elliott> j-invariant: no, no, better, this has nothing to do with the web, this particular bit
00:07:46 <j-invariant> hehe
00:07:47 <elliott> j-invariant: what it does is make text a data-accessor
00:08:00 <elliott> i.e. http://hackage.haskell.org/package/data-accessor
00:08:06 <elliott> so you have to do item^.text
00:08:15 <elliott> but hey, that's USEFUL! totally useful!
00:08:23 <elliott> and overloading the normal definition syntax?
00:08:26 <elliott> totally the right way to go about it
00:08:43 <elliott> j-invariant: can you reassure me that I won't accidentally invent something useful here :/
00:09:18 <j-invariant> elliott: THE NEXT PAUL GRAHAM
00:09:31 <elliott> actually what i'm doing here as a joke is disturbingly like what Yesod does
00:09:42 <j-invariant> that's web for ya
00:09:54 <elliott> no, no, it's clearly proof that I cannot avoid injecting my genius into things
00:10:04 <elliott> if i continue, i will have the world's first good web framework!
00:10:10 <j-invariant> um that's another way to look at it :P
00:10:19 <elliott> then, I will make shit smell like flowers and taste like lemonade
00:10:29 <elliott> even if that's somewhat less impressive
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00:17:12 <elliott> Oklopol is an poklo ol, confirm/deny?
00:18:20 <elliott> j-invariant: LOL, it looks like just about everything I wrote as a joke is a yesod core feature
00:18:29 <elliott> What we're learning here is: Haskell, lol
00:18:41 <Gregor> elliott: Oh that's it, you are SO sued for slander.
00:18:52 <elliott> Gregor: Sure thing, Mr. Weetabix.
00:18:58 <j-invariant> rofn
00:19:32 <Gregor> elliott: I think you mean Mr. Oklopol's-Lawyer. -stein.
00:19:53 <elliott> j-invariant: Rolling On the Floor, Neglecting parts of my life by playing minecraft?
00:20:14 <j-invariant> hahah Yes
00:21:13 <elliott> j-invariant: do you know what makes me SAD? Two-way parsers aren't powerful enough to parse most things
00:21:24 <j-invariant> is that a theorem?
00:21:26 <elliott> (single combinator definition a la parsec but only Applicative that can both parse and deparse)
00:21:30 <elliott> j-invariant: someone proved it to me on #haskell once :-D
00:21:32 <Gregor> elliott: SOUNDS LIKE IT'S TIME FOR A THREE-WAY THEN.
00:21:42 <elliott> Gregor: Parsing, deparsing, and ... ARSING?!
00:21:44 <j-invariant> elliott: stop destroying my dreams
00:21:52 <elliott> j-invariant: i know it's horrible, i wanted to write all parsers like that forever
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00:22:29 <Gregor> elliott: Heww yeah.
00:22:50 <elliott> j-invariant: (Foo =:<= digit) <: digit <: digit
00:22:55 <Gregor> elliott: I'm so glad your dialect has a convenient rhyme :P
00:23:01 <elliott> -> 123 is (Foo '2' '3') and vice versa
00:23:06 <elliott> Gregor: wat
00:23:23 <Gregor> elliott: "arse"
00:23:28 <elliott> Gregor: X-D
00:23:33 <elliott> Arse arse arse.
00:23:35 <elliott> ARSE
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00:26:15 <j-invariant> elliott: great now I have all the Obsidian I need -- just have to get a pick to mine it
00:26:35 <elliott> j-invariant: FAIL
00:26:44 <elliott> j-invariant: you're meant to use buckets of lava and water to construct the portal in-place
00:26:46 <elliott> using cobbles to guard it
00:26:51 <elliott> that way, you don't have to mine it later
00:26:53 <j-invariant> actually wait a sec
00:26:53 <elliott> which is exceedingly tedious
00:26:55 <elliott> 20-30s per block
00:27:04 <elliott> you are meant to *create the obsidian in the right place* the first time :)
00:27:19 <j-invariant> elliott: I thought of thhat
00:27:22 <elliott> make sure to see http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Portal for how to make a portal and also how to cut corners if you want to avoid using too much obsidian
00:28:26 <elliott> hey
00:28:30 <elliott> Vorpal: obsidian is renewable
00:28:32 <elliott> "Even when a portal is built with only 10 blocks of Obsidian (by leaving out the corners), the portal frame spawned on the other side will have the full 14 blocks."
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00:29:11 <elliott> j-invariant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUxhO9VLKPY
00:29:27 <j-invariant> Contrary to public belief[2], portals do not conserve momentum.
00:29:57 <j-invariant> I love that song :D
00:33:33 <nooga> http://pastie.org/1468410 maybe somebody know what this piece does in prolog
00:33:38 <nooga> or how to use it?
00:33:55 * pikhq *still* finds it somewhat odd that the Super Bowl is actually broadcast outside of the US...
00:34:13 <pikhq> Are there that many non-Americans that give a crap?
00:34:50 <elliott> nooga: Impossible to say without the context, dude. But it looks like some kind of proof-generating system.
00:35:04 <elliott> G'night.
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00:35:15 <coppro> They don't even air the same ads!
00:35:20 <coppro> but yes, unfortunately, there are
00:35:32 <pikhq> Okay, well. There is Canada, which actually has *reason* to care.
00:35:49 <pikhq> Namely, they also play football.
00:37:33 <coppro> oh, dunno if anyone else cares
00:38:33 <pikhq> Well, it certainly gets *shown* elsewhere.
00:38:56 <pikhq> How many Brits are likely to give a damn, though?
00:39:33 <j-invariant> nooga: that's a prolog interpreter
00:39:50 <Sgeo> Dominion episode1
00:40:25 <nooga> i'd like to modify that to produce proof trees
00:40:31 <nooga> but i don't know prolog
00:41:40 <j-invariant> hmm constructive prolog
00:43:56 <j-invariant> I can't imagine what a proof tree would look like for prolog
00:44:06 <j-invariant> basically and execution trace
00:44:11 <nooga> yes
00:44:20 <nooga> that's what i'd like
00:44:32 <nooga> but i don't get it :D
00:46:24 <nooga> what ! does?
00:47:08 <j-invariant> ! is the hardest part of prolog to understand.
00:47:35 <nooga> http://cs.union.edu/~striegnk/learn-prolog-now/html/node96.html
00:47:35 <j-invariant> Basically they had implemented prolog in a very specific way, and exploited the way it was done to add this new ! thing
00:47:39 <nooga> and what is X here?
00:47:50 <j-invariant> the consequence is that ! makes no sense
00:48:58 <j-invariant> They way they implemented prolog was to have it every time a choice can be made they push that set of branches to a stack
00:49:28 <j-invariant> ! erases all the alternatives of the top most choice point
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00:52:18 * Sgeo cuts j-invariant
00:53:16 <zzo38> Now I made up a program to track the dynamic memory usage of other program. Is there better ways?
00:54:25 <pikhq> man 1 ps
00:54:54 <Sgeo> What will happen if I eat clementines as my only fruit?
00:55:15 <Sgeo> [Currently, I'm not eating fruits on a regular basis]
00:56:05 <pikhq> Well, you'll be at a much lower risk of scurvy.
00:56:07 <zzo38> pikhq: Is it answer to me?
00:56:13 <pikhq> zzo38: Yeah.
00:56:36 <zzo38> I am on Windows, though. (The program is cross-platform, however.)
00:56:56 <zzo38> (I do not like Windows that much; UNIX is better, but Windows is what I have, so I use it.)
00:57:14 <fizzie> I guess that depends on "topmost"; I mean, for a(X,Y,Z) :- b(X), b(Y), !, b(Z) where b(X) can produce multiple choices, the ! will make it not backtrack to try out different values for either X or Y; not just cut the latest possible branching point where the value for Y was determined. (It will also not try some hypothetical other a(X,Y,Z) :- whatever rule it otherwise could.)
00:58:06 <zzo38> This is the program: http://sprunge.us/IHEa You can tell me if I did something wrong.
01:00:35 <Sgeo> Why do humans peel certain fruits?
01:01:24 <coppro> because the rind is difficult and/or unrewarding to eat
01:01:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: Probably from not liking eating some of the outsides.
01:03:26 <Sgeo> Non-human animals are presumably ok with it
01:03:58 <Sgeo> ^^not a good reason to do what non-human animals do
01:04:59 <zzo38> Another reason might be if it is dirty outside.
01:05:07 <zzo38> But, some people do like to eat the peeling.
01:05:11 <pikhq> Sgeo: Mostly just preference.
01:05:14 <zzo38> (Sometimes separately from the inside part)
01:07:08 <pikhq> Sgeo: Though some fruits are actually inedible without peeling.
01:07:22 <Sgeo> pikhq, how does that make sense?
01:07:38 <zzo38> pikhq: Then don't eat it!
01:07:53 <Sgeo> What do non-human animals do with such fruits?
01:08:06 <Sgeo> Or did these fruits evolve after mankind started peeling fruits?
01:08:49 <pikhq> Sgeo: That's "inedible to humans".
01:08:56 <Sgeo> Ah
01:10:28 <pikhq> And of course, you must remember that most human-consumed foods are the result of artificial selection.
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01:12:09 <pikhq> (fun fact: the bananas we typically cultivate & consume cannot survive without human intervention!)
01:15:27 <pikhq> (okay, this is actually true of an *insane* number of species...)
01:16:27 <Gregor> THAT'S BECAUSE THEY WERE CREATED BY GOD FOR US
01:17:10 <coppro> actually, when you mention bananas, it's worth noting that animals do typically peel bananas
01:17:14 <pikhq> Gregor: God created the turkey-physically-incapable-of-having-sex?
01:17:39 <pikhq> coppro: How in the world do non-primates handle that?
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01:18:26 <coppro> pikhq: Either they eat the bananas or don't eat them or do weird things to them?
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01:18:53 <pikhq> coppro: "Peel bananas", specifically.
01:19:18 <coppro> pikhq: my suggestion was that they do not
01:19:20 <pikhq> Ah.
01:24:41 <nooga> ghh
01:28:32 * variable belongs to the Church of Google anyways
01:28:51 <coppro> I think I'm being recruited
01:30:45 <zzo38> variable: Why did you belong to the Church of Google?
01:31:40 <variable> zzo38, well god has to be omniscient right? and doesn't google fit that criteria ?
01:31:54 <variable> also google answers my prayers - whatever I want to know - it knows
01:32:08 <variable> also - google is all good - it can do no evil
01:32:22 <variable> google MUST be god
01:32:57 <zzo38> variable: Google does not know everything. Many things I find it hard to find at all no matter what.
01:34:55 <variable> zzo38, then you must not be a True Believer. Have more trust in your query and you shall learn
01:34:57 <zzo38> I don't use Google very often.
01:35:11 <Gregor> Tsk tsk.
01:35:16 <Gregor> Trust The Google.
01:35:21 <Gregor> Love The Google.
01:35:31 <Gregor> Give all thine data to The Google and The Google shall give all its love to you.
01:35:59 <zzo38> I more often use Wikipedia to search for information than I use Google.
01:36:53 <variable> zzo38, wikipedia is a saint in the Church of Google
01:37:42 <zzo38> variable: I don't care who they are a saint of or not.
01:37:57 <zzo38> Also, I use a lot of different things.
01:38:43 <zzo38> I will ask on IRC, and search some things on Veronica. And I have some books, I will look there. Or, looking at the files I have in my computer.
01:38:54 <zzo38> But I do sometimes search Google, as well.
01:40:07 <variable> zzo38, your taking the fun out of it
01:40:10 <variable> tis called a joke
01:40:16 * variable does all those things too
01:40:18 <variable> but meh
01:40:38 <zzo38> I do not use Google as much as most other people, however.
01:43:10 <variable> zzo38, tbh I'm finding that google is getting worse and worse
01:43:28 <zzo38> variable: I also find it getting worse and worse. In more than one way.
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02:32:18 <zzo38> Invent a chess variant involving some esolangs.
02:33:57 <calamari> zzo38: ever play Crobots?
02:34:44 <zzo38> calamari: No.
02:34:54 <zzo38> I think I have heard of it though.
02:36:19 <calamari> anyhow, HQ9+ could be the pawn :P
02:37:06 <zzo38> Yes, if the game is designed to work in a way that is like that.
02:37:55 <calamari> I wasn't really serious
02:38:10 <zzo38> Other ideas are: Make a game based on 2-dimensional esolangs. Make a game with some hidden information. Make a game involving cards with commands to execute on the board.
02:38:45 <zzo38> calamari: Yes, it certainly does not seem sensible that you could make a chess variant where HQ9+ could be the pawn (or where any esolang "could be the pawn").
02:39:35 <zzo38> It can be a game with normal chess board/chess pieces, or one with a different size of board and different pieces.
02:39:36 <calamari> anyhow, what I liked about crobots was that you could make some complicated program that did all sorts of stuf.. but then it would get killed by a simple program because the complicated one was bloated and slow in comparison
02:52:18 <zzo38> Make a chess variant involving pieces with the INTERCAL commands on them.
02:53:31 <pikhq> I think it says something about me that I generally have to close dozens of Wikipedia pages every day...
02:53:50 <pikhq> Not sure what, though.
02:54:15 <olsner> doesn't strike me as a very unique problem :)
02:54:39 <pikhq> Probably a pretty common problem, really.
02:55:12 <zzo38> I hardly ever have more than two Wikipedia pages open at once.
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03:00:12 <calamari> sorry I'd have to agree.. when I get on wikipedia, if I get more than a few tabs opened, I'm doomed, because that means I'll be on there all night as my tabs grow to infinity
03:13:44 <zzo38> Please tell me whether or not this is good enough: http://sprunge.us/NXPL
03:14:41 <olsner> hmm, you seem to have pasted a tex document and not a runnable or compileable program
03:15:37 <zzo38> olsner: It is compileable program, but it requires Enhanced CWEB. Also, it won't compile without TeXnicard, because of the line that says #include "texnicard.c"
03:16:02 <zzo38> I mean just to read to see if the memory usage stuff is workable or if there is something wrong with it.
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03:57:53 <Sgeo> RAM. Cloud.
03:57:55 <Sgeo> Why
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04:05:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: Because eCloud Technologies is going to let us enter the Internet Age!
04:06:23 <Gregor> I am absolutely bursting to tell people about the awesome thing I just did.
04:06:28 <Gregor> But alas, I cannot.
04:06:39 <Gregor> (For about a month and a half)
04:06:53 <pikhq> Gregor: NDA?
04:06:59 <Gregor> Nope
04:07:42 <pikhq> Too awesome for our brains to comprehend, and we need to wait for your newfound singularity to improve our brains enough to be able to understand it?
04:07:51 <Gregor> Closer to that.
04:08:10 <Gregor> (Not that much closer, but the competition is "NDA" :P
04:08:11 <Gregor> )
04:08:24 <pikhq> :P
04:08:39 <pikhq> Hey, "NDA" is at least *plausible*.
04:08:56 <Gregor> Still not close :P
04:09:02 <olsner> Gregor finally made contact with aliens
04:09:12 <Gregor> Even closer!
04:09:36 <Gregor> (Still not close at all, but indisputably closer)
04:09:52 <oerjan> Gregor finally made contact with ... something
04:10:01 <Gregor> Less close :P
04:10:27 <oerjan> ...the aliens are the close part?
04:10:49 <Sgeo> Gregor did something with an FFI (hence the closeness of "aliens")
04:11:10 <Gregor> Mmm ... about equally close. In the "still not close at all" sense.
04:11:25 <Sgeo> Gregor did something.
04:11:31 <Gregor> EXACTLY!
04:11:53 <oerjan> damn you Sgeo now we cannot get closer!
04:12:31 * oerjan suddenly remembers ais523's aversion to "damn you"
04:16:09 <pikhq> DAMNATION BE UPON ÞEE
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05:34:26 <Sgeo> elliott did stuff with Factor
05:34:27 <Sgeo> huh
05:50:01 <Vorpal> Sgeo, hasn't he done something in nearly every non-crap language you heard of (and possibly a few of the crap ones too)
05:50:33 <coppro> no
05:50:39 <coppro> he hasn't actually done anything about them
05:50:50 <coppro> just yelled at us about how dumb we are for not having done it for him
05:51:06 <Vorpal> Probably he ignored the mediocre and tried out the real crappy ones. I seem to remember he tried to code something in "Plain English" just for the laughs.
05:52:00 <Vorpal> coppro, that might be a bit of an extreme point of view. The truth is probably in between
05:52:38 <coppro> does your leg hurt yet? if not I'll pull it harder
05:52:54 <Vorpal> coppro, oh right. I just woke up :P
05:53:23 <Vorpal> coppro, besides if I can't clearly detect humour I default to taking a statement as serious
05:53:32 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to look at Io again
05:54:40 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why are you so language-ambivalent?
05:55:00 <coppro> Sgeo: the language or the moon?
05:55:05 <coppro> I assure you the latter is more interesting
05:55:09 <Sgeo> o.O
05:55:18 <Vorpal> coppro, :D
05:55:25 <Sgeo> Why the Io hate?
05:55:37 <coppro> it's not Io hate
05:55:50 <coppro> It's just that Io is friggin awesome
05:56:07 <Vorpal> coppro, not as awesome as Europe or Titan iirc?
05:56:11 <coppro> it's the most active body in the solar system
05:56:12 <pikhq> "That's because he's speaking in French the entire series, and the Universal Translator turns it into vaguely british sounding English." On Jean-Luc Picard.
05:56:16 <pikhq> :D
05:56:19 <Vorpal> coppro, oh okay
05:56:19 <coppro> :D:D:D
05:56:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, hah
05:56:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, where is that from?
05:57:10 <Sgeo> Is there an "anti-block" in Io?
05:57:30 <Sgeo> Force this piece of code to be executed before the surrounding function looks at it
05:57:33 <pikhq> Vorpal: TVtropes.
05:57:47 <coppro> Io loses one ton a second of material to the Jovian magnetosphere
05:57:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh. I would have gussed memory alpha for something that absurd ;P
05:58:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's not absurd in the context of the series, it really isn't.
05:58:13 <Vorpal> coppro, wow
05:58:24 <Sgeo> So, when does Io die?
05:58:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, well I watched (part of) the series.
05:58:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, and I still think it is rather absurd :P
05:58:48 <pikhq> Vorpal: Did Riker have a beard?
05:59:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, seen both with and without that
05:59:03 <Vorpal> mostly with it
05:59:20 <pikhq> Ah, good, you didn't soley get the pain of the first season.
05:59:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, some of the first season was okay
05:59:44 <coppro> the first season was painful
05:59:53 <Vorpal> not the Q stuff though
06:00:01 <pikhq> It ranged from mediocre to OH HOLY GOD THAT HURTS.
06:00:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, yeah
06:00:11 <pikhq> With the exception of the first appearance of Q.
06:00:20 <pikhq> Which was put in as *filler*...
06:00:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed that was okay, the second was not
06:00:47 <pikhq> To pad the series opening out to two hours.
06:00:54 <Vorpal> anyway. Off to university now.
06:01:04 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or is Io a bit of an anti-Haskell?
06:01:12 <coppro> TNG was at its best when it was full of philosophy
06:01:25 <Sgeo> In Haskell, you can (kind of) substitute definitions for .. defined things
06:01:31 <pikhq> It was at its worst when it was trying to be TOS with a different cast.
06:02:13 <Sgeo> In most languages, you don't expect a difference between passing in an expression, and a name containing the value of the resulting expression
06:02:29 <Sgeo> I know there's a term for that, mentioned in SICP, but I don;t know what it is
06:02:34 <Sgeo> Io throws that out the window
06:02:54 <pikhq> Sgeo: As does C. Macros!
06:03:30 <coppro> Sgeo: referential transparency
06:03:35 <coppro> and uh, you're wrong
06:03:42 <Sgeo> Hmm?
06:03:44 <coppro> referential transparency is a rare feature
06:04:20 <Sgeo> What I mean is, in most languages:
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06:04:24 <Sgeo> a = foo()
06:04:27 <Sgeo> b(a)
06:04:28 <pikhq> coppro: Really? Most languages at least have it for pass-by-value.
06:04:31 <Sgeo> is the same as
06:04:37 <Sgeo> b(foo())
06:04:44 <coppro> oh, that's not referential transparency
06:04:49 <coppro> referential transparency is
06:04:53 <Sgeo> That's not referential transparency, but there's a name for it in SICP
06:04:56 <Sgeo> I think
06:05:02 <Sgeo> I haven't actually read it >.>
06:05:08 <coppro> b(foo()) != b(2) where foo() returns 2
06:05:23 <coppro> pikhq: no language with side-effects does
06:05:34 <variable> hi
06:05:42 <pikhq> coppro: Oh, dur, I should've specified "modulo side effects".
06:05:56 <Sgeo> Can I construe this conversation as a defense for Io?
06:05:58 <pikhq> But that makes it nearly meaningless as a distinction.
06:06:03 <coppro> pikhq: yeah
06:06:19 <coppro> I cannot imagine a language that did not have referential transparency modulo side effects
06:06:35 <coppro> Sgeo: prease to be explraining preblerm
06:06:59 <Sgeo> Io does not have referencial transparency modulo side effects.
06:07:06 <Sgeo> *referential
06:07:08 <coppro> O_o
06:07:17 <coppro> k I'm going to bed now
06:07:20 <pikhq> coppro: Tcl doesn't always.
06:07:29 <Sgeo> I may be misunderstanding
06:07:43 <coppro> pikhq: my god
06:07:44 <pikhq> Granted, you have to be doing nasty things to it for that to come up.
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06:08:08 <pikhq> About on par with heavy, heavy macroing in Lisp.
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06:08:41 <pikhq> (oh, the joys of a *first-class stack*)
06:09:00 <Sgeo> I think the thing with Io is, every call can be to what another language would call a "macro", and it might be easier to write macros in Io
06:09:05 <Sgeo> (Haven't begun experimenting yet)
06:09:15 <pikhq> Erm, not first-class.
06:09:15 <coppro> pikhq: until your compiler is first-class, you aren't doing it right :P
06:09:24 <pikhq> But... Readily accessible call stack.
06:09:47 <pikhq> coppro: Sadly, the dodekalogue is not modifiable.
06:10:16 <Sgeo> coppro, this is an if statement in Io:
06:10:16 <Sgeo> if(b == 0, c + 1, d)
06:10:43 <Sgeo> Wow, that's not nearly as revealing as I want
06:10:58 <Sgeo> System args foreach(k, v, write("'", v, "'\n"))
06:11:17 <pikhq> Sgeo: Looks like side effects to me. :P
06:11:36 <Ilari> Hmm... Now the Lagerholm estimate is 19th. Wonder if that 15th was processing error or if he added couple of days for processing delay.
06:12:23 <pikhq> Probably processing delay.
06:12:45 <Sgeo> people select(age < 30)
06:13:25 <pikhq> As APNIC is *definitely* below his declared threshold right now.
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06:31:27 <Sgeo> In Io, strings have encodings
06:31:37 <Sgeo> That... just makes no sense
06:32:00 <Sgeo> Encodings refer to the physical representation, not to.. an inherit property of Unicode text
07:04:07 <Sgeo> I am suddenly reminded of Haskellian laziness
07:05:03 <pikhq> Praise be to the almightly lambda.
07:05:07 <pikhq> Almighty, even.
07:11:46 <Ilari> Thinking that Unicode isn't superset of everything?
07:14:26 <Sgeo> n/m my comment on Haskellian laziness
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07:36:02 * Sgeo likes how Googleable Ioke is
07:40:09 * Sgeo likes the distinction between the place where methods accessible from anywhere go (Ground) and the [kind of] top level Object (Origin)
07:41:24 <Sgeo> Wait, it might be DefaultBehavior, not Ground, I'm not sure
07:44:17 <Sgeo> HOLY. FUCKING. CRAP.
07:44:22 * Sgeo starts worshipping Ioke
07:46:00 <Sgeo> http://ioke.org/wiki/index.php/Guide#Let
07:46:18 <Sgeo> "Of course, it's a power that can be abused, but it gives lots of interesting possibilities for expression."
07:46:32 <Sgeo> Yeah, well, it prevents poisoning of the global state
07:46:59 * Sgeo can think of potential bad interactions though
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08:01:47 <oerjan> excitement of the day: can Sgeo manage to break up with Ioke before elliott wakes up and modifies shutup?
08:03:14 <fizzie> oerjan: We should have some sort of a betting pool.
08:03:28 <oerjan> yay
08:04:01 <Sgeo> Actually, let might not be as useful for what I was imagining
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08:13:58 <Ilari> Hurr... APNIC has allocated over 8M addresses just this month...
08:25:31 <pikhq> That's a pretty insane allocation rate.
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09:01:14 <Ilari> Now the estimate is 20th... Anyway, one would expect the allocation request very soon (or it may already have been sent)...
09:03:33 <Ilari> If the threshold is 2, one would expect allocation request to be sent today...
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11:15:06 <ais523> hmm, that was pleasantly unexpected
11:24:04 <ais523> email conversation goes vaguely like this: <someone higher-ranking than me> service X seems to do everything we want <ais523> but that would violate the terms of service <original person> you seem to be right, I'll look for a different service
11:24:14 <ais523> this does not fit in with the typical stereotype of an employer
11:24:35 <ais523> (although companies tend to be more worried about doing something illegal than individual people, as they can be relatively large targets to sue)
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11:25:37 <ais523> also, wtf?: http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/01/16/2110254/Facebook-Opens-Up-Home-Addresses-and-Phone-Numbers
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15:19:45 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/5rNti.jpg
15:20:25 <elliott> 23:44:17 <Sgeo> HOLY. FUCKING. CRAP.
15:20:25 <elliott> 23:44:22 * Sgeo starts worshipping Ioke
15:20:26 <elliott> sigh
15:20:36 <oerjan> "dad blamed"?
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15:22:21 <elliott> % This program is public domain, but if you combine it with GPL program,
15:22:21 <elliott> % the combination is licensed by GPL.
15:22:27 <elliott> zzo38: That is not even close to legally valid.
15:22:32 <elliott> pikhq: You be in charge of telling him why not.
15:22:35 <elliott> Well.
15:22:41 <elliott> It's either trivially true, or utterly invalid.
15:24:20 <elliott> 17:40:07 <variable> zzo38, your taking the fun out of it
15:24:25 <elliott> variable: you're taking the 're out of you're
15:24:41 <variable> elliott, hrm?
15:24:51 <elliott> *you're
15:24:52 <elliott> :)
15:25:04 <variable> elliott, fuck you
15:25:12 <elliott> gee, thanks
15:25:16 <variable> :-)
15:25:18 <elliott> oerjan: swat variable for me
15:25:21 <oerjan> WE SPELLS OUR GRAMMARS PROPERLY HERE IN #ESOTERIC
15:25:34 <elliott> oerjan: dad blamed is apparently a euphemism for god damned
15:25:40 <oerjan> aha
15:26:42 <elliott> or, in Sgeoland, a euphemism for BANNED
15:26:50 <variable> erm elliott that statement is invalid because of the "this program is public domain"
15:26:55 <oerjan> variable: i recall a recent reddit post arguing that people correcting each other's grammar and spelling is the only thing keeping communities from descending into youtube comment quality
15:27:02 <oerjan> s/post/comment/
15:27:13 <elliott> variable: preeeecisely...except /arguably/ it is just stating informatively /what/ the GPL demands
15:27:19 <elliott> either way, it's completely useless text :)
15:27:53 <variable> yep
15:27:56 <oerjan> hm or was it recent, it may have been just linked from a recent reddit comment
15:28:01 <variable> where did you find that?
15:28:28 <elliott> variable: the program zzo linked yesterday
15:28:31 <elliott> he is a fan of terrible licensing!
15:28:42 <elliott> he can't seem to not invent his own ... like everything else ...
15:28:47 <variable> oerjan, why do I get the feeling that 50% of the comments were a flame about some perfectly normal variation? ie color v colour ?
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15:29:05 <oerjan> variable: well that happens of course :D
15:29:21 <oerjan> i think a saw someone complaining about "whilst" yesterday
15:29:25 <oerjan> *i
15:29:26 <elliott> variable: *colour vs. colour
15:29:30 <elliott> you illiterate American bastard!
15:30:06 <oerjan> variable: however on reddit that just means we're in for the _next_ commenter giving us a lesson
15:30:34 <elliott> xD
15:30:38 <variable> elliott, did I mention that UK shows are so much better than the Americanized versions (Hustle v Leverage)?
15:31:15 <oerjan> #esoteric is of course _almost_ indistinguishable from parts of reddit
15:31:19 <elliott> variable: you are granted temporary lenience.
15:31:23 <elliott> oerjan: er are you sure about that :D
15:31:50 <oerjan> elliott: hey i corrected it to "parts of" before pressing enter!
15:32:15 <elliott> oerjan: I'd like to see a subreddit as flamewarry as here... or as interesting... or as off-topic
15:33:17 <oerjan> r/politics for the first perhaps?
15:33:35 <elliott> oerjan: ok but with #esoteric the important thing is that it's intelligent people arguing like morons
15:33:45 <oerjan> U WRONG!
15:33:46 <elliott> /r/politics is just morons arguing like morons
15:35:43 <elliott> ais523: hi
15:35:44 <oerjan> also things go off-topic all the time in the comments
15:36:15 <elliott> oerjan: well sure, but I just don't really see this place as being similar to reddit
15:36:32 <elliott> oerjan: proggit circa early 2007, perhaps
15:36:53 <oerjan> and people keep complaining about r/science not having real science although i saw a post indicating they were intending to moderate more restrictively
15:36:55 <elliott> 19:13:44 <zzo38> Please tell me whether or not this is good enough: http://sprunge.us/NXPL
15:36:55 <elliott> 19:14:41 <olsner> hmm, you seem to have pasted a tex document and not a runnable or compileable program
15:37:01 <elliott> olsner: ENHAAAAAANCED CWEEEEEEEEEEB
15:37:21 <oerjan> *start moderating
15:37:40 <elliott> It gives you PROGRAMMING POWERS
15:37:50 <elliott> You can write a BOOK and it's a PROGRAM but a BOOK and a program yet a BOOK!
15:37:58 <elliott> IT RENDERS LINE NUMBERS TO .DVI
15:38:54 <elliott> 21:34:26 <Sgeo> elliott did stuff with Factor
15:38:54 <elliott> 21:34:27 <Sgeo> huh
15:38:54 <elliott> Yes, I had a half-broken commit made to the repository that got fixed by Slava and made "0 /" give a less horrific exception.
15:39:05 <elliott> 21:50:33 <coppro> no
15:39:05 <elliott> 21:50:39 <coppro> he hasn't actually done anything about them
15:39:05 <elliott> 21:50:50 <coppro> just yelled at us about how dumb we are for not having done it for him
15:39:13 <elliott> ^cat coppro: factually incorrect
15:39:13 <fungot> coppro: factually incorrect
15:39:32 <elliott> I wonder if I accidentally killed coppro's dog or something
15:39:54 <oerjan> elliott: thinking about it, it's possible that i just tune out the parts i like the least from both places, making them converge :)
15:40:07 <elliott> oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE
15:40:08 <elliott> oerjan: hi
15:40:27 <oerjan> wat
15:42:37 <coppro> elliott: what
15:42:38 <oerjan> elliott: it takes a few more lines than that to make me _start_ tuning out, naturally :D
15:42:49 <elliott> Vorpal: pumpkin enclosed with leaves, how odd
15:42:52 <elliott> oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE
15:42:52 <elliott> oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE
15:42:53 <elliott> oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE
15:42:53 <elliott> oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE
15:42:53 <elliott> oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE
15:42:53 <elliott> oerjan: FUCK YOU ASSHOLE
15:42:54 <elliott> oerjan: hi
15:43:05 <oerjan> yeah yeah whatever
15:43:14 <elliott> Vorpal: ok this whole tree seems to exist solely to conceal pumpkins
15:43:23 <Sgeo> elliott, do ypu dislike Ioke? I assume if you do, it's for the same "It has no rules" reason for hating Io
15:43:51 <elliott> It's probably better than Io but I don't see any reason to give it any attention.
15:44:05 <elliott> It is, IIRC, JVM-hosted, which is a strong negative.
15:44:18 * oerjan paging shutup in 1, 2...
15:46:16 <elliott> oerjan: Waaay too lazy to add anything to it since it doesn't seem to have done anything.
15:46:38 <oerjan> it's still broken?
15:47:09 <oerjan> oh not done anything to Sgeo you mean
15:47:26 <oerjan> well you do not seriously _expect_ people to respond constructively to harassment, do you?
15:47:46 <oerjan> _even_ if you're right about the fundamental issue
15:49:23 <oerjan> triggering people's basic defense instincts is not a way to make them behave rationally.
15:50:49 <oerjan> not that i imagine Sgeo caring that much about shutup anyhow
15:51:53 * oerjan always feels hypocritical when talking about how people should behave :(
15:58:32 <elliott> oerjan: well i _have_ tried talking him out of it, and yelling at him directly
15:58:40 <elliott> and i can hardly program a bot to talk rationally, so instead it yells
15:58:52 <elliott> patches welcome :P
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16:00:47 <elliott> fizzie: I think you might want to remove the "simple little" part from the mcmap README's first line.
16:00:54 <elliott> It's quite a hefty program now. :p
16:00:56 <oerjan> XD
16:01:28 <oerjan> simple little behemoth
16:01:53 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, does mcmap have a built-in colour for TNT?
16:02:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I haven't done a thing.
16:02:17 <elliott> fizzie: Heh, I'm going to tweak the dependency-generating rule with that option that ignores non-existent headers, assuming they're generated; currently it won't generate dependencies if protocol-data.h doesn't exist.
16:02:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you expect me to take your word on that?
16:02:59 <elliott> Draaaaaaaaama.
16:03:13 <elliott> How do you know I didn't push a SECRET UPDATE to decolour TNT!!?!??@49837869rumkf
16:05:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Srsly, all I did last night was walk around.
16:05:32 <elliott> I am currently lost somewhere far away from the Cube.
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16:08:20 <cheater-> elliott: http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/
16:08:30 <elliott> Now what are the coords of spawn again...
16:08:44 <elliott> fizzie: Also outdated: "If you leave it out, the window will be resizable, but resize events are not handled, so something bad will probably happen. (Fixing this is on the hypothetical TODO list.)"
16:08:53 <elliott> fizzie: I pushed that build system fix, btw.
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16:10:41 <ais523> [15:40] <elliott> ais523: hi <-- hi
16:11:02 <elliott> ais523: what are good times to bug you about scapegoat relative to your sleep schedule? :-P
16:11:29 <ais523> elliott: oh, the issue for me now is that I'm looking at #esoteric when people speak there
16:11:32 <ais523> but not really taking in any of the words
16:11:44 <elliott> ais523: minecraft, eh :P
16:11:49 <ais523> could be
16:12:06 <elliott> ais523: surely the tab colour for minecraft is different if you've been pinged?
16:12:09 <elliott> that's xchat default, at least
16:12:20 <ais523> oh, it is
16:12:47 <ais523> but as I said, I just noticed I'd been pinged, looked at the channel, then went back to looking at something else
16:12:50 <ais523> and again, didn't actually read it
16:12:55 <ais523> I think my brain is IRCing on autopilot
16:13:43 <cheater-> ais523: check the link i pasted
16:13:47 <elliott> ais523: IF I PING YOU LIKE THIS WOULD IT HELP
16:14:32 <elliott> ais523: BEEP BEEP WAKE UP BEEEEEEEP
16:15:23 <elliott> ais523: BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP
16:15:30 <ais523> elliott: I only noticed the third one
16:15:38 <elliott> ais523: ok, i'll use that in future
16:15:47 <ais523> and probably only because I was looking at the channel at the time
16:16:11 <elliott> ais523: this is why most people have system-wide indicators if they've been pinged :P
16:16:12 <elliott> e.g. sound
16:16:17 <ais523> elliott: I /do/
16:16:23 <elliott> ais523: you're...deaf?
16:16:38 <elliott> or just _really_ good at ignoring things?
16:16:48 <ais523> no, I just don't react to the fact I was pinged for whatever reason
16:16:53 <elliott> heh
16:16:54 <ais523> also, #esoteric was set not to trigger them
16:16:57 <ais523> which probably has something to do with it
16:17:02 <ais523> must have been a mouse-typo weeks ago
16:17:12 <elliott> that might be something worth fixing :p
16:17:30 <ais523> as in, I looked in the client's config, and there was a specific config entry meaning "#esoteric should not ping me no matter what's said there"
16:17:31 <ais523> fixed now
16:17:37 <elliott> ais523: I don't know if you heard the last time I said, but my scapegoat implementation can now order and apply changesets
16:17:43 <ais523> yay
16:17:50 <elliott> ais523: which I think means it does automatic merging
16:18:04 <ais523> what happens on a changeset that contains a conflict?
16:18:05 <elliott> because the changeset {A, B}, when applied, will produce an automatic merge of A and B if one is possible, right?
16:18:08 <elliott> ais523: it returns Nothing :-)
16:18:12 <elliott> that's my only failure mechanism right now
16:18:18 <ais523> heh
16:18:22 <elliott> i'm trying to get it as platonically elegant as possible before ruining it
16:18:28 <ais523> and you can upgrade it to a better monad later
16:18:42 <ais523> e.g. Either, for the purpose of returning more details about the problem
16:18:47 <elliott> ais523: doubt it needs to be a monad; just (Either ApplyError [Line])
16:18:51 <elliott> hmm, is (Either a) a monad?
16:18:55 <ais523> yep
16:18:55 <elliott> I think it only is under certain conditions
16:19:10 <ais523> it's just Maybe + error message
16:19:29 <ais523> as long as you use Right as the actual value, and Left as the error condition; its >>= is defined with that assumption
16:19:33 <elliott> right
16:20:07 <elliott> ais523: anyway, what do you think I should implement next? I was thinking changes-on-sets (i.e. directories), but I'm not sure
16:20:28 <ais523> hmm, it might be better to ask me when I'm capable of concious thought
16:20:32 <ais523> which it seems I'm not at the moment
16:20:34 <elliott> (and my attempts to refit the code to allow genericisation have resulted in ugliness
16:20:46 <elliott> ais523: heh, try and remember to ping me when you are then :P
16:21:56 <ais523> anyway, my sleep schedule is mostly OK except I was awake all night Saturday -> Sunday, due to looking after a relative
16:22:06 <ais523> and this is the first week of term
16:23:49 <ais523> and I have a report deadline
16:24:55 <elliott> ais523: just one question if you feel conscious enough to answer it: do you think it's possible to derive the file changes with an F([String]) and the directory changes with F(Set DirEntry) for the same F?
16:25:06 <elliott> i.e. are they direct analogues of each other that can be auto-generated?
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16:25:34 <ais523> aha, probably not, because the way you specify context is different
16:25:36 <elliott> Vorpal_: what coords are spawn, do you know?
16:25:39 <elliott> ais523: define context?
16:25:42 <elliott> ais523: ah
16:25:46 <elliott> ais523: because with a list, you go between two elements
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16:25:50 <elliott> ais523: with a set, you specify the whole set
16:25:51 <ais523> yep
16:25:51 <elliott> to insert to
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16:26:04 <ais523> and that's a big enough difference to confuse type systems
16:26:05 <Vorpal> <elliott> [17:29:57] Vorpal_: what coords are spawn, do you know? <-- no idea
16:26:14 <Vorpal> elliott, some smallish positive number?
16:26:18 <Vorpal> for x and z
16:26:19 <elliott> Vorpal: well i know that :)
16:26:24 <ais523> wait, is this channel still talking about minecraft?
16:26:25 <elliott> ais523: even then, I've been trying to make a "Change" typeclass so that I can define operations generic to change type ... but this might be fruitless
16:26:47 <elliott> ais523: at the same time, I think I still want _some_ sort of genericity, because e.g. both types of change have the same metadata
16:26:49 <elliott> that is:
16:26:51 <elliott> author, date, etc.
16:26:51 <ais523> indeed
16:26:57 <elliott> so i'm a bit confused :)
16:27:01 <ais523> it's just getting levels of abstraction right
16:27:11 <ais523> and that's coming up in my research atm and confusing me
16:27:16 <elliott> ais523: I think I'll make a distinction between "changes" and "patches"
16:27:19 <Vorpal> also my computer crashed. Something with USB is shoddy and can cause a reset.
16:27:25 <elliott> ais523: change = basic operation; patch = change + metadata
16:27:29 <elliott> ais523: changes reference patches
16:27:33 <ais523> hmm, OK
16:27:40 <elliott> i.e., a change might be "insert 'foo' between patch1 and patch2", and a patch using it might be:
16:27:42 <ais523> I'm not sure how useful the naming is there, but I doubt any other naming would do better
16:27:43 <elliott> author: elliott
16:27:46 <elliott> date: [now]
16:27:50 <elliott> insert 'foo' between patch1 and patch2
16:27:53 <ais523> and the concepts are certainly useful
16:27:58 <elliott> ais523: well, a patch is the kind of thing you'd show to another person, a change isn't
16:28:34 <ais523> OK, here's a concept English doesn't have a word for, and comes up a lot in programming: imagine something like a computer game (Minecraft perhaps?) where you want to generate some in-game concept (perhaps monsters)
16:28:53 <elliott> ais523: now we're on-topic! ...wait...
16:28:58 <Vorpal> ais523, err?
16:29:03 <ais523> there are two ways you can define "monster": an individual monster in a location on the map, or the concept of that monster that it's generated from
16:29:16 <elliott> heh
16:29:31 <elliott> ais523: I'd call the former a monster and the latter a monster-class
16:29:33 <elliott> or monster-type
16:29:35 <ais523> the question is, how do you name the second type of monster, to show it's distinct from the first?
16:29:38 <elliott> but those don't make sense to refer to Changes as
16:29:46 <Vorpal> ais523, you mean like the idea of an monster (as in Platon (sp in English?))
16:29:48 <ais523> oh, that wasn't a scapegoat reference at all
16:29:48 <elliott> i assume that's what you're trying to say
16:29:50 <elliott> ah
16:29:58 <elliott> Vorpal: what
16:30:00 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, I've seen "platonic" used to describe the concept before
16:30:06 <elliott> well sort of...
16:30:09 <elliott> it's just a template vs. instance
16:30:09 <ais523> but it doesn't seem to fit exactly
16:30:13 <elliott> ais523: use OOP TERMINOLOGY!!192871349
16:30:14 <Vorpal> ais523, the second could perhaps be an instance of a monster
16:30:17 <elliott> well, in fact, this is almost directly OOP
16:30:19 <elliott> class vs. instance
16:30:21 <ais523> elliott: except you need multiple inheritance
16:30:22 <elliott> Vorpal: er no
16:30:26 <elliott> the second is the class
16:30:27 <elliott> definitely
16:30:36 <Vorpal> elliott, err, which one do you mean is the second
16:30:39 <Vorpal> and which is the first
16:30:47 <elliott> the one that came second in his message, perhaps?
16:30:50 <elliott> just thinking out loud here
16:30:54 <elliott> <ais523> there are two ways you can define "monster": an individual monster in a location on the map, or the concept of that monster that it's generated from
16:30:56 <Vorpal> oh wait yeah I mixed up order
16:30:59 <Vorpal> I thought it was the other way around
16:31:00 * elliott clap
16:31:06 -!- asiekierka has joined.
16:31:07 <Vorpal> ais523, how do you need MI?
16:31:10 <asiekierka> hello!
16:31:14 <asiekierka> this is what boredom does to people
16:31:26 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/712w0gTm
16:31:38 <ais523> Vorpal: because sensibly, an individual monster needs to inherit from a monster class (if you're doing OO), and that's the way round nearly all games do it
16:31:54 <ais523> elliott's claiming it should also inherit from the monster template, which is entirely sensible except it requires MI
16:31:57 <oerjan> <elliott> I think it only is under certain conditions <-- the Left type needs an Error instance, is all
16:32:04 <elliott> ais523: erm
16:32:05 <elliott> ais523: not really
16:32:12 <elliott> ais523: class Grue < Monster := ...
16:32:15 <elliott> ais523: myGrue := new Grue
16:32:20 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/xyGf2UVF <- added some more info
16:32:21 <elliott> oerjan: right
16:32:29 <Vorpal> ais523, yep. So the monster classes inherits from some base class. And then you have instances of each monster. This is one of the few situations where OOP terminology actually seems pretty sensible
16:32:30 <ais523> elliott: but Monster shouldn't contain things like X and Y coordinates
16:32:35 <ais523> and nor should Grue
16:32:36 <elliott> asiekierka: is this on Windows?
16:32:38 <ais523> but myGrue should
16:32:40 <Vorpal> and they are quite rare
16:32:43 <asiekierka> elliott: Linux
16:32:45 <asiekierka> Ubuntu 10.10
16:32:48 <elliott> ais523: hmm, yes they should
16:32:51 <asiekierka> 2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Qud
16:32:52 <elliott> ais523: Monster should inherit from GridEntity
16:32:52 <asiekierka> Quad*
16:33:00 <elliott> asiekierka: needs moar llvm
16:33:03 <elliott> erm
16:33:03 <elliott> clang
16:33:07 <elliott> asiekierka: also pcc
16:33:12 <elliott> also non-glibc libc
16:33:12 <elliott> s
16:33:17 <asiekierka> adding clang
16:33:21 <ais523> elliott: ah, I see, that makes complete sense if you have a fixed set of monsters
16:33:30 <elliott> ais523: *monster types?
16:33:34 <ais523> err, yes
16:33:43 <ais523> most games are written in such a way that monster types could be added at runtime
16:33:49 <ais523> which is weird, as none of them actually do do that
16:33:59 <Vorpal> <ais523> elliott: but Monster shouldn't contain things like X and Y coordinates <-- so you could have another base class that includes other things which has a position in the game world, "entity" seems like the best name? Though this is getting very far into OOP now...
16:34:05 <elliott> ais523: how does that clash with my way of doing it?
16:34:08 <asiekierka> bench.c:67:1: error: 'main' must return 'int'
16:34:12 <elliott> Vorpal: welcome to me, five lines ago
16:34:13 <asiekierka> fixing
16:34:20 <asiekierka> (yes, that's clang)
16:34:34 <ais523> elliott: it requires generation of classes at runtime
16:34:37 <Vorpal> elliott, well you split your statements over more lines. Of course you get more said (though less per line)
16:34:54 <elliott> ais523: So? :)
16:34:59 <asiekierka> elliott - looks like we have a current winner
16:35:00 <ais523> asiekierka: gcc's error is actually similarly useful in this case
16:35:04 <ais523> which is surprising
16:35:08 <asiekierka> ais523: gcc gave nothing!
16:35:10 <elliott> asiekierka: you're testing this while you're running an irc client?
16:35:15 <elliott> asiekierka: -Wall fail
16:35:21 <asiekierka> elliott: that and Firefox
16:35:24 <ais523> elliott: I think that one's actually under -pedantic
16:35:28 <elliott> asiekierka: hahahaha
16:35:44 <elliott> asiekierka: benchmarks while running Firefox
16:35:45 <elliott> hilarious
16:35:56 <Vorpal> ais523, if you want to make monsters at runtime you presumably also need to add some sort of game logic to them at runtime. Some sort of AI. Which means you need to add code at runtime anyway.
16:36:04 <Vorpal> either by scripting language
16:36:10 <Vorpal> or by loading native code, or something else
16:36:17 <ais523> elliott: it's not that ridiculous, you can use the POSIX timer that counts only time spent by the process in question
16:36:26 <ais523> and ignores other processes on the same processor
16:36:29 <Vorpal> (where "native" could be byte code if you do it in java or whatever)
16:36:36 <elliott> ais523: that's not a very good measurement
16:36:45 <elliott> ais523: since it'll probably be quite a bit less than a machine just running the benchmark
16:36:47 <elliott> and counting real time
16:36:56 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/FHwQ12XD
16:36:57 <Vorpal> ais523, how would you count waiting for IO and no other runnable task?
16:36:58 <elliott> well, i guess it depends on how it treats kernel time, but still
16:37:03 <asiekierka> elliott it's not a speed benchmark
16:37:04 <ais523> elliott: seems I was wrong, it's under both -Wall /and/ -pedantic
16:37:06 <asiekierka> it's a comparison between compilers
16:37:07 <Vorpal> ais523, to that process or to nowhere?
16:37:16 <ais523> IO waits go to nowhere on that timer
16:37:16 <elliott> asiekierka: doesn't matter, your results are biased
16:37:27 <elliott> due to Firefox using different resources at different times, most likely
16:37:48 <ais523> elliott: well, which timer you use depends on what you're trying to measure
16:37:58 <Vorpal> ais523, then how do you deal with virtualisation. You can't tell really where time went if you are virtualised.
16:38:08 <ais523> I/O time is very relevant for benchmarking some programs, and not for others
16:38:15 <asiekierka> elliott: did not make a real difference
16:38:23 <elliott> asiekierka: you can't know that...
16:38:31 <asiekierka> i turned off everything
16:38:37 <ais523> Vorpal: indeed
16:38:40 <elliott> asiekierka: including X11?
16:38:40 <asiekierka> but the console (used to run benchmarks), IRC client and 1 tab in Firefox
16:38:46 <elliott> "everything"
16:38:54 <elliott> we have different definitions of everything
16:38:55 <asiekierka> i need the irc client and firefox to update
16:38:57 <elliott> yours doesn't include X11, apparently
16:39:08 <ais523> there's a whole bunch of system services too
16:39:28 <asiekierka> whatever
16:39:35 <ais523> I suppose you could use emulation, rather than virtualisation, for consistent benchmarks
16:39:44 <asiekierka> ais523: i will zip up the compiled binaries
16:39:46 <asiekierka> and the source code
16:39:52 <ais523> asiekierka: how would that help you benchmark them?
16:39:55 <asiekierka> and put it up so you can test it
16:40:00 <ais523> well, I wouldn't want to
16:40:01 <asiekierka> anyway
16:40:05 <asiekierka> where can i find pcc, elliott?
16:40:08 <ais523> it's not me who wants the benchmark results
16:40:09 <asiekierka> ais523: neither would I :P
16:40:21 <elliott> http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/
16:40:22 <Vorpal> if you want benchmarks just to compare two situations (different softwares, before/after change) or such just turn off most CPU intensive stuff then set cpu frequency governor to performance. Then time the thing a number of times and take the average.
16:40:24 <elliott> you need the CVS versoin
16:40:25 <elliott> *version
16:40:26 <Vorpal> most of the time that works well
16:40:27 <elliott> and also pcc-libs
16:40:41 <ais523> elliott: I would say "ugh CVS", except that I'm using RCS for a serious project
16:40:43 <ais523> admittedly by mistake
16:40:44 <asiekierka> Vorpal: timing a number of times is done by Linpack
16:40:51 <Vorpal> asiekierka, the other bits?
16:40:52 <elliott> ais523: well, they're BSD guys, they're luddites :)
16:41:14 <ais523> and it's not too awful, except for having to check out immediately after checking in when I'm the only person working on the file
16:41:22 <asiekierka> Vorpal - i do not know where to find the cpu governor and i tured off the cpu intensive stuff already, except what i need
16:41:25 <Vorpal> the CPU frequency really matters. ondemand is bad for quick benchmarks. Or anything where CPU load isn't high for a long time
16:41:35 <Vorpal> really it seriously messes up timing
16:41:45 <ais523> a locking VCS isn't really an issue at all when only one person is working on the file anyway
16:41:59 <elliott> ais523: see if you used SCAPEGOAT ... wait, i can't use that on you
16:42:12 <Vorpal> asiekierka, cpufreq-set -g performance -c 0, repeat with -c 1 and so on for each core in your CPU
16:42:16 <Vorpal> needs sudo
16:42:24 <Vorpal> (or su or whatever)
16:42:43 <Phantom_Hoover> http://reckzb.imgur.com/new_haven_museum#q7EwQ
16:42:46 <Vorpal> to restore just do cpufreq-set -g ondemand -c whatever for each core
16:42:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Beats Deewiant's, I'm afraid.
16:42:55 <asiekierka> * Loading cpufreq kernel modules... [fail]
16:43:00 <asiekierka> i am sudo'd
16:43:01 <asiekierka> or su'd
16:43:09 <Vorpal> <ais523> admittedly by mistake <-- uh how did that happen?
16:43:13 <elliott> "sudo'd or su'd" -- ah, to be incompetent.
16:43:18 <ais523> Vorpal: I was using LyX
16:43:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Man, that Painterly pack is weird.
16:43:26 <asiekierka> i am root
16:43:27 <elliott> Vorpal: he accidentally typed "rcs"
16:43:28 <asiekierka> tat's better
16:43:30 <elliott> and it all went downhill from there
16:43:32 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the windows are different.
16:43:33 <ais523> and it has version control integration, but doesn't state the VCS when setting it up
16:43:33 <elliott> asiekierka: root is better than sudo?
16:43:34 <elliott> LOL.
16:43:40 <asiekierka> maybe
16:43:42 <ais523> turns out, the only VCS it actually integrates with is RCS
16:43:47 <Vorpal> ais523, heh. I just ignore it's built in vcs support. But doesn't it do svn nowdays too?
16:43:55 <ais523> perhaps as a plugin
16:43:55 <elliott> rcs is preferable to svn
16:43:57 <elliott> :P
16:44:01 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:44:03 <Vorpal> ais523, I think in the very last version or such
16:44:05 <ais523> but SVN is much worse than RCS for a single-developer project
16:44:08 <elliott> svn is like cvs, except without historical justification
16:44:12 <elliott> and also, very slow
16:44:15 <Vorpal> or was it git? well some non-rcs anyway
16:44:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, FWIW, that museum must have been done with a map editor.
16:44:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Why? Bedrock?
16:44:25 <ais523> my main annoyance with svn is the lack of local history
16:44:37 <ais523> although I've been using git-svn nowadays
16:44:46 <ais523> for use with other people's svn repos
16:44:50 <elliott> ais523: SCAPEGOAAAAT
16:44:53 <ais523> (or, in the case of UnNetHack, tailor)
16:44:55 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, no, but it has lapis, redstone and coal ore in the one room.
16:45:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ah.
16:45:04 <Phantom_Hoover> None of which can be placed.
16:45:04 <ais523> elliott: hmm, we must add scapegoat support to tailor when we're done
16:45:13 <Phantom_Hoover> And there's a *lot* of blue wool there.
16:45:14 -!- asiekierka has joined.
16:45:16 <elliott> ais523: agreed, but IIRC Tailor's architecture is a bit bad? I forget
16:45:18 <asiekierka> back
16:45:24 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:45:28 <elliott> ais523: I'm planning to write darcs2sg as soon as sg "works" so it can be tested
16:45:30 <asiekierka> anyway... /usr/include//stdio.h:34: error: cannot find 'stddef.h'
16:45:31 <elliott> on real repos
16:45:32 <ais523> elliott: it's probably awful, although I've never looked at the source it has a tendency to fail randomly
16:45:36 <asiekierka> that's what pcc gives
16:45:41 <asiekierka> with pcc-current.tgz
16:45:41 <ais523> or, not randomly, deterministically
16:45:51 <ais523> but without it being obvious what the relevant factors are
16:45:53 <elliott> asiekierka: you didn't install pcc-libs.
16:46:00 <elliott> asiekierka: also, use cvs, not the .tgzs.
16:46:03 <elliott> pcc-libs is only available via cvs too.
16:46:10 <elliott> ais523: sg basically needs to-sg-repo support anyway, for converting old repositories
16:46:12 <ais523> although VCS type seems to be one of them, and directory structure is possibly another
16:46:16 <ais523> elliott: indeed
16:46:18 <elliott> ais523: so darcs can be done quite easily
16:46:27 <elliott> from-sg would take actual work, but who would want to do that? :)
16:46:32 <Vorpal> bbl
16:46:53 <ais523> elliott: it wouldn't be too hard
16:47:12 <ais523> you'd just need to figure out what to define as a merge from the point of view of the other VCS
16:47:39 <ais523> you could either do it completely linear or maximally branching; the second would probably be a more accurate view of things, the first would correspond to a rebase and rebases are evil
16:48:14 <ais523> 3
16:48:32 <ais523> (sorry, I typoed 3 in my terminal, realised that was an inappropriate place to typo it, so I moved the typo to #esoteric to get rid of ti)
16:48:34 <ais523> *it
16:48:36 <asiekierka> pcc-libs is on the FTP too, but i'll try cvs
16:48:59 <asiekierka> the problem is
16:49:01 <asiekierka> how to remove pcc
16:49:14 <elliott> asiekierka: you make installed it?
16:49:16 <elliott> looooooooool
16:49:24 <asiekierka> stop loling
16:49:27 <elliott> asiekierka: into /usr?
16:49:27 <ais523> did it at least install in /usr/local?
16:49:27 <asiekierka> i know you hate me
16:49:30 <asiekierka> just stop loling
16:49:39 <elliott> no, i don't hate you, it's just i laugh at stupid decisions
16:49:39 <asiekierka> ais523: yes
16:49:51 <asiekierka> elliott: i only installed linux last week, keep it a little bit easier
16:49:54 <ais523> asiekierka: it's not too hard to uninstall, then; you just need to rm -r all the directory trees it created
16:50:04 <ais523> which is easier if you know where they actually are
16:50:05 <elliott> Or just rm -rf /usr/local if you haven't installed anything there before.
16:50:13 <asiekierka> elliott: > llvm
16:50:21 <asiekierka> also parts of gcc
16:50:23 <elliott> asiekierka: good luck...
16:50:29 <ais523> look to see if there's a make uninstall in the makefile
16:50:31 <ais523> there is sometimes
16:50:32 <elliott> use --prefix=/opt/foo in future, or checkinstall
16:50:35 <ais523> sometimes it even actually works
16:50:38 <asiekierka> ais523: checked already
16:50:39 <elliott> ais523: they're BSD guys. they're luddites
16:50:39 <elliott> I doubt it :)
16:50:51 <asiekierka> also
16:50:53 <asiekierka> pcc wiped out manually
16:50:56 <ais523> (C-INTERCAL's does, although it doesn't uninstall previous versions)
16:50:56 <asiekierka> now to get the cvs versions
16:52:00 <elliott> ais523: you /must/ switch C-INTERCAL to scapegoat as soon as it's stable enough, I want to see esr's reaction
16:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Why?
16:52:28 <elliott> because everything esr has said so far re: C-INTERCAL has been amusing
16:53:14 <ais523> /usr/local install isn't ridiculously bad; it's comparable to the situation on Windows
16:53:25 <elliott> ais523: windows programs all have uninstallers
16:53:31 <ais523> elliott: yes, but they generally don't work
16:53:37 <elliott> ais523: they work better than nothing :)
16:54:48 <ais523> the situation with Norton is ridiculous; it comes with an uninstaller that doesn't work, but you can download an uninstaller that does from the company website
16:55:04 <elliott> anyway, "isn't ridiculously bad; comparable to Windows" is a strange thing to say
16:55:17 <ais523> elliott: you've used Windows, you know it isn't completely awful
16:55:26 <ais523> atm I consider it usable but suboptimal and a pain to develop for
16:55:30 <elliott> ais523: well, no, but its /architecture/ is terrible
16:55:39 <ais523> terrible and improving
16:55:43 <elliott> ais523: not internally
16:55:50 <elliott> The Old New Thing can convince anyone of that
16:55:56 <ais523> I don't read it much
16:56:01 <ais523> I probably should, it's a good blog
16:56:12 <Vorpal> <ais523> 3
16:56:12 <Vorpal> <ais523> (sorry, I typoed 3 in my terminal, realised that was an inappropriate place to typo it, so I moved the typo to #esoteric to get rid of ti)
16:56:12 <Vorpal> <ais523> *it
16:56:21 <elliott> :D
16:56:25 <Vorpal> ais523, you are joking right? It isn't some sort of OCD?
16:56:32 <elliott> *of awesome?
16:56:35 <elliott> ais523: here's something you won't believe
16:56:36 <Vorpal> (you never know with people of this channel)
16:56:46 <ais523> Vorpal: I am aware you can get rid of typos more easily than that
16:56:46 <elliott> ais523: as far as I can tell, Raymond Chen wrote Linux 2.0's configuration interface bash script
16:56:58 <elliott> ais523: Raymond Chen, of Old New Thing. *While working at Microsoft.*
16:57:07 <ais523> I was just in a mood to give this one a home
16:57:08 <Vorpal> ais523, well yes. But would you use the other way?
16:57:13 <Vorpal> ah
16:57:15 <elliott> ais523: it was credited to a Raymond Chen, it had an @microsoft.com email, and IIRC googling the email vaguely pointed me in his direction.
16:57:32 <ais523> that's not completely implausible
16:57:32 <elliott> ais523: It was a *bash shell script*. Used for configuring Linux 2.0.
16:57:39 <elliott> Not completely, but awesome!
16:57:51 <elliott> ais523: (it's a horrific script -- it reads answers from /dev/tty, so you can't pipe less in)
16:57:54 <asiekierka> elliott
16:57:55 <elliott> *pipe yes in
16:57:58 <elliott> I have no idea why
16:58:03 <asiekierka> where can i find the way to download pcc-libs via cvs
16:58:16 <elliott> http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/downloads/
16:58:18 <elliott> check out the pcc-libs module
16:58:24 <elliott> via cvs
16:58:28 <ais523> elliott: hey, C-INTERCAL reads from /dev/tty
16:58:28 <elliott> same pserver as listed there
16:58:33 <elliott> ais523: why?
16:58:33 <ais523> or used to, at least
16:58:44 <ais523> because the code logic completely lost track of stdin after a while
16:58:51 <ais523> and I got lost trying to figure out where it had got to
16:58:56 <ais523> possibly still does
16:58:56 <elliott> haha
16:59:05 <ais523> just for the debugger, which makes sense reading from the tty anyway
16:59:16 <Vorpal> elliott, for unknown reason it reassigned stdout and stdin a lot iirc
16:59:39 <Vorpal> ais523, but what if you want to use the debugger from inside an editor. Like gdb-mode for emacs or similar?
16:59:56 <ais523> Vorpal: M-x term
17:00:04 <ais523> although that's far from optimal
17:00:08 <Vorpal> indeed
17:00:16 <ais523> also, doesn't Emacs simulate /dev/tty anyway in shell-mode?
17:00:17 <asiekierka> elliott: /usr/include//signal.h:349: error: cannot find 'stddef.h'
17:00:19 <asiekierka> the funny thing is
17:00:22 <asiekierka> there is no stddef.h in there
17:00:24 <ais523> you can just use a pty
17:00:28 <Vorpal> ais523, perhaps. I haven't checked how gdb mode work or such
17:00:32 <elliott> asiekierka: did you make install pcc-libs?
17:00:35 <ais523> sorry, I'm vaguely annoyed at the moment because the burglar alarm's gone off again
17:00:46 <asiekierka> elliott: that happens while compiling pcc-libs
17:00:50 <Vorpal> ais523, at university?
17:00:52 <elliott> ais523: comint doesn't simulate /dev/tty, i don't _think_
17:00:52 <asiekierka> it uses pcc to compile them
17:00:54 <ais523> Vorpal: yes
17:00:57 <elliott> asiekierka: it shouldn't
17:00:57 <Vorpal> ah
17:00:59 <elliott> asiekierka: it's meant to use gcc
17:01:02 <elliott> you set CC=pcc or something
17:01:11 <elliott> asiekierka: failing that, "make clean; CC=gcc ./configure"
17:01:27 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, can't it self-host?
17:01:31 <asiekierka> elliott - still uses pcc
17:01:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Not when you don't have a working compiler yet :-P
17:01:42 <elliott> pcc-libs is the other half to pcc on Linux.
17:01:45 <Vorpal> elliott, fair enough
17:01:58 <elliott> asiekierka: you should have compiled pcc second, I don't know what to do; it should work with CC=gcc
17:02:02 <elliott> if it doesn't you did something really weird
17:02:07 <asiekierka> elliott: it does not have a check for CC anywhere
17:02:07 <Vorpal> elliott, though iirc gcc insists on self-hosting itself when compiling with any other compilser
17:02:09 <Vorpal> compiler*
17:02:11 <elliott> asiekierka: what?
17:02:17 <elliott> ./configure listens to CC.
17:02:20 <elliott> *$CC
17:02:22 <asiekierka> i tried searching the entire ./configure to CC
17:02:24 <asiekierka> for CC
17:02:38 <elliott> /sigh
17:02:43 <Vorpal> is that autoconf configure?
17:02:46 <elliott> yes.
17:02:47 <asiekierka> got it
17:02:50 <Vorpal> well then wtf
17:02:52 <elliott> so it probably does some random shit.
17:02:55 <elliott> rather than say CC directly.
17:03:00 <ais523> Vorpal: it does that for two reasons: half of it's written in gcc extensions, and as a check (it compares gcc compiled with gcc compiled with gcc to gcc compiled with gcc compiled with $OTHER_COMPILER to verify they're identical)
17:03:22 <elliott> ais523: that's far too many recursions
17:03:24 <Vorpal> yeah
17:03:24 <ais523> autoconf respects CC
17:03:25 <asiekierka> elliott: fixed it
17:03:32 <ais523> elliott: any fewer and you wouldn't expect the binaries to match
17:03:32 <asiekierka> removed /usr/local/bin/pcc (will reinstall it)
17:03:42 <asiekierka> it does check for pcc hardcoded, if it doesnt find it only then it uses gcc
17:03:43 <elliott> ais523: gcc compiled with gcc compiled with X = gcc compiled with gcc compiled with gcc compiled with X
17:03:58 <elliott> ais523: that's two less recursions than yours
17:04:13 <asiekierka> now it works
17:04:15 <elliott> and that only requires three compilations
17:04:26 <Vorpal> ais523, but what about stuff like debug info. Wouldn't you expect them to differ (different paths in the debug info)?
17:04:26 <elliott> ais523: and since gcc only goes up to stage3, I *doubt* it does what you said
17:04:43 <asiekierka> runs at roughly the same speed as GCC
17:04:52 <ais523> elliott: no, that's what I said
17:04:54 <asiekierka> actually a bit slower
17:04:54 <ais523> just the other way round
17:04:58 <Vorpal> elliott, actually he got the count right
17:05:01 <asiekierka> i'll try to recompile pcc-libs with pcc now
17:05:06 <elliott> ais523: oh, you used "with" to separate them both
17:05:20 <Vorpal> elliott, no he used "to"
17:05:20 <elliott> ais523: thus making your sentence completely unparsable
17:05:29 <elliott> i'm not looking at that sentence again, it hurts me
17:05:46 <asiekierka> nope, no difference
17:06:01 <asiekierka> well with PCC-compiled libs it is faster
17:06:13 <asiekierka> still slower than GCC, though
17:06:19 <elliott> asiekierka: now do them all again with uClibc/dietlibc (compilers bootstrapped with same)
17:06:20 <elliott> have fun
17:06:30 <asiekierka> yay
17:06:43 <Vorpal> elliott, well here I added markup, look if you want, if not then don't: "it compares (gcc [3] compiled with gcc [2] compiled with gcc [1]) to (gcc [2] compiled with gcc [1] compiled with $OTHER_COMPILER) to verify they're identical"
17:06:44 <elliott> you need to patch both dietlibc and pcc to get them working together, but i can't give you them, they're on the other box.
17:06:51 <elliott> Vorpal: right.
17:07:01 <Vorpal> elliott, the number are the stage numbers
17:07:04 <elliott> ais523: it's a lot easier if you have a C interpreter
17:07:04 <Vorpal> numbers*
17:07:15 <Vorpal> elliott, does any exist?
17:07:17 <elliott> ais523: gcc compiled with gcc_interpreted = gcc compiled with gcc compiled with gcc_interpreted
17:07:20 <elliott> Vorpal: *do, and I thnk so
17:07:22 <elliott> *think
17:07:27 <elliott> Cint or whatever
17:07:27 <Vorpal> heh nice
17:07:28 <elliott> and Ch
17:07:34 <elliott> Ch supports the 1999 ISO C Standard (C99) and C++ classes. It is superset of C with C++ classes. C99 major features such as complex numbers, variable length arrays (VLAs), IEEE-754 floating-point arithmetic and generic mathematical functions are supported. Wide characters in Addendum 1 for C90 is also supported.
17:07:36 <asiekierka> on the other hand
17:07:40 <asiekierka> PCC wins in size
17:07:56 <ais523> elliott: that's not really much easier, you just replaced "compiled with" with "interpreted with", then "interpreted with" with an underscore
17:08:00 <elliott> asiekierka: pcc/dietlibc can produce statically-linked executables of 4K in size
17:08:02 <Vorpal> elliott, complex numbers. heh nice
17:08:14 <Vorpal> elliott, that is one of the features I would expect to be unsupported
17:08:15 <elliott> asiekierka: (statically linking with glibc = 100K+ usually)
17:08:22 <elliott> Vorpal: not that hard to do, surely
17:08:40 <elliott> ais523: shush :)
17:08:45 <ais523> hmm, pcc supports all of C89 and some of C99?
17:08:46 <elliott> ais523: it's certainly faster to do, probably
17:08:47 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah but if you look at C99 compilers it is one of the last features to get done it seems.
17:08:50 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/b4P3QzZM
17:08:50 <elliott> since gcc takes so long to compile
17:09:02 <asiekierka> current rank
17:09:04 <Vorpal> elliott, (based on clang and gcc development history)
17:09:18 <Vorpal> elliott, possibly because few people use it?
17:09:25 <elliott> probably
17:10:02 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/fJ2CVjjj <- added one more important info
17:10:27 <elliott> most effort put into biased benchmarks evar
17:10:40 <Vorpal> <elliott> since gcc takes so long to compile <-- wouldn't it take ages to interpret as well?
17:10:54 <elliott> Vorpal: well you'd only hit the codepaths that are actually used to compile gcc.
17:10:56 <elliott> so probably not.
17:10:58 <asiekierka> elliott: bash adds a bit of overhead
17:10:59 <elliott> ok it'd be very slow still :)
17:11:00 <asiekierka> should i disable it too
17:11:08 <elliott> no it doesn't
17:11:10 <Vorpal> elliott, well a coverage analysis might be interesting here.
17:11:13 <asiekierka> also the kernel adds some
17:11:14 <elliott> bash will just be sleeping while it runs
17:11:17 <asiekierka> i should do it without a kernel
17:11:20 <elliott> false comparison
17:11:22 <Vorpal> but, I'm not going to try that on gcc bootstrap
17:12:11 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/f3llk/dear_mojang_different_colored_wood_and_stairs/c1d2hz4?context=2 I approve
17:12:14 <elliott> (sorry ais523)
17:12:32 <asiekierka> here's another question
17:12:41 <asiekierka> how to switch ubuntu to use dietlibc and not glibc
17:12:51 <ais523> I'm not sure if it's designed for that sort of customization
17:13:04 <ais523> the purpose of Ubuntu isn't really extreme tinkering
17:13:20 <ais523> (does even gentoo let you do that switch easily?)
17:13:23 <Vorpal> hey even gentoo doesn't support that sort of stuff iirc
17:13:37 <asiekierka> according to my biased benchmark, if you care about size you should use PCC (it has the performance of GCC but a far smaller size)
17:13:47 <asiekierka> if you care about speed, use Clang (the files are not the biggest either)
17:14:02 <elliott> asiekierka: what?
17:14:06 <elliott> asiekierka: you just install dietlibc in another prefix.
17:14:10 <elliott> and then compile with /opt/bin/diet gcc ...
17:14:20 <ais523> asiekierka: what optimization options are you using?
17:14:20 <elliott> also, pcc's performance is lower than gcc.
17:14:25 <elliott> and clang's runtime performance is often slower than gcc
17:14:29 <elliott> (but it is always faster at compiling)
17:14:32 <asiekierka> ais523: none!
17:14:40 <Vorpal> asiekierka, well duh.
17:14:40 <asiekierka> i use -o bench-[whatever] -lm bench.c
17:14:48 <asiekierka> i'll try to run it with -O3 then
17:14:49 <asiekierka> i guess
17:14:50 <ais523> asiekierka: oh, you're talking about compilation speed, not the speed of the resulting program?
17:14:55 <asiekierka> ais523 no
17:14:58 <asiekierka> talking about the speed of the app
17:15:01 <asiekierka> i'll try -O3 now, i guess
17:15:03 <ais523> also, -Os is often better for speed of the resulting program due to cache effects
17:15:11 <asiekierka> i'll use -Os then
17:15:13 <Vorpal> asiekierka, you need each -O then. -Os can be faster. And is certainly smaller
17:15:20 <Vorpal> asiekierka, so do them all, well not -O1 I guess
17:15:27 <Vorpal> but -Os, -O2, -O3
17:15:37 <Vorpal> and equiv ones for other compilers
17:15:53 <ais523> comparing unoptimized compiler output for speed is unlikely to be too helpful...
17:16:08 <elliott> LOL, you used no optimisation options?
17:16:10 <elliott> faaaail
17:16:18 <elliott> asiekierka: for a benchmark like this you want -O2
17:16:21 <asiekierka> elliott stop going all fail over me, that's really annoying
17:16:25 <elliott> since it's performance-heavy
17:16:32 <elliott> asiekierka: well, in my defence, you are failing. very hard.
17:16:34 <asiekierka> why not -Os -O2 -O3
17:16:38 <asiekierka> elliott i am
17:16:39 <elliott> ...
17:16:41 <asiekierka> but you should just tell me
17:16:46 <elliott> i am
17:16:47 <asiekierka> and not go LOL FAIL BWAHAHAHAHA WHAT A NOOB
17:16:48 <elliott> <elliott> faaaail
17:16:58 <asiekierka> as that's how i see your actions every 30 seconds
17:17:22 <elliott> Vorpal: do two torches right after each other mean "end of line" in your exploration-marking system?
17:17:27 <elliott> I'm trying to get back to spawn from (100,100)
17:17:31 <elliott> and I've been following your torches
17:17:37 <asiekierka> TCC seems to have no optimization options
17:17:37 <elliott> and there are two right after each other and then none that I can see
17:17:38 <asiekierka> *facepalm*
17:17:45 <elliott> asiekierka: it has -O IIRC
17:18:02 <asiekierka> the filesize does not change at all
17:18:05 <elliott> Vorpal: oh wait found the next one
17:18:07 <Vorpal> elliott, no. It depends on context
17:18:12 <Vorpal> elliott, is it underground?
17:18:12 <elliott> asiekierka: i believe it is on by default.
17:18:15 <elliott> Vorpal: no, overground
17:18:22 <Vorpal> elliott, what, then I have no idea :P
17:18:26 <Vorpal> elliott, probably marking something
17:18:27 <elliott> Vorpal: ...
17:18:28 <Vorpal> look around
17:18:35 <elliott> Vorpal: there ain't shit there but more torches
17:18:41 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe there is some cool scenery around?
17:18:43 <elliott> it's vaguely pretty i guess
17:18:51 <asiekierka> GCC: -Os -O2 -O3 gives a 4x improvment
17:18:57 <Vorpal> elliott, which direction do you move
17:19:04 <elliott> wut
17:19:09 <elliott> asiekierka: THOSE OVERRIDE EACH OTHER
17:19:14 <Vorpal> elliott, is this one of the east or west trails?
17:19:20 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't know!
17:19:23 <asiekierka> elliott tell that to Vorpal
17:19:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I think I might be going the wrong way
17:19:29 <elliott> asiekierka: it was a list.
17:19:31 <asiekierka> <Vorpal> but -Os, -O2, -O3
17:19:33 <elliott> you fail at english.
17:19:34 <Vorpal> asiekierka, the last one takes effect
17:19:35 <elliott> did i mention fail?
17:19:36 <elliott> fail fail fail
17:19:39 <elliott> faaaaail fail fail
17:19:44 <Vorpal> asiekierka, it was trying each one. Separately
17:19:45 <asiekierka> I know a song that will annoy everyoneeeeeee
17:19:48 <Vorpal> quite obvious
17:19:51 <Vorpal> see the comma there?
17:19:51 <asiekierka> it's called fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, YOU FAAAIL
17:19:53 <Vorpal> now try to read
17:19:57 <asiekierka> oh ok
17:19:58 <ais523> `addquote <asiekierka> GCC: -Os -O2 -O3 gives a 4x improvment
17:20:02 <elliott> Vorpal: you need to place more torches, cheapskate
17:20:08 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, *WHERE*
17:20:08 <elliott> (ais523: talking about real life obviously)
17:20:10 <elliott> Vorpal: here
17:20:16 <elliott> i can't follow your trails :D
17:20:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I can't get on atm
17:20:16 <ais523> elliott: oh, I don't mind
17:20:19 <ais523> I'm just surprised
17:20:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm on EDGE
17:20:33 <Vorpal> elliott, I will not minecraft on that
17:20:39 <Vorpal> the connection is just too bad
17:20:42 <elliott> Oklopol minecrafts on a 3g stick, i bet it's normally on edge
17:20:44 <elliott> be hardcore!
17:20:45 <Vorpal> s/ / /
17:20:52 <elliott> ais523: it's... slightly addictive
17:20:55 <asiekierka> now i did them separately
17:21:01 <Vorpal> elliott, dude, normally you get 3G in scandinavia :P
17:21:08 <asiekierka> Os gives 1400000 KFlops (compared to 400000 pre-optimization)
17:21:23 <elliott> #esoteric-minecraft anyone?
17:21:23 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway. tell me which direction compared to spawn
17:21:28 <elliott> it's probably common enough talk to get its own channel
17:21:35 <Vorpal> elliott, otherwise I suspect it is someone else who placed that
17:22:09 <HackEgo> 267) <asiekierka> GCC: -Os -O2 -O3 gives a 4x improvment
17:22:31 <elliott> Vorpal: I'll add him as an op.
17:22:38 <Vorpal> elliott, and resign yourself?
17:22:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Are you afraid I'll ban you and then you'll die or something?
17:23:16 <elliott> Vorpal: There, given fizzie enough flags that he can remove my privileges if he wants, but I doubt he will.
17:23:21 <Vorpal> elliott, no I'm not "afraid". I'm just suspecting you will abuse the op at some point
17:23:26 <Vorpal> like whenever we two disagree
17:23:28 <elliott> Vorpal: To do _what_?
17:23:41 <elliott> If fizzie has ops he can trivially remove any ban I place.
17:24:01 <Vorpal> elliott, kickban probably. One way to resolve this would be to make me op as well. I wouldn't abuse it (I'm not you)
17:24:20 <elliott> tl;dr <Vorpal> YOU'RE EVIL AND IMMATURE, SO OP ME NOW!!!!!!!!!
17:24:37 <asiekierka> ok
17:24:37 <Vorpal> elliott, no :P
17:24:55 <Vorpal> elliott, but I do not trust you to be a balanced person.
17:24:55 <asiekierka> i'm now re-benchmarking every compiler (except tcc which lacks optimization options)
17:25:00 <asiekierka> for -Os, -O3 and -O2 separately
17:25:14 <Vorpal> ais523, not every compiler has -Os, and clang has more than -O3 iirc
17:25:18 <Vorpal> ais523, read the docs
17:25:20 <Vorpal> for details
17:25:27 <elliott> hey ais523, did you know that I'm unbalanced
17:25:34 <ais523> Vorpal: why are you pinging me with that, I'm not surprised at all
17:25:39 <ais523> elliott: in what sense?
17:25:41 <Vorpal> ais523, err
17:25:44 <elliott> ais523: I dunno, ask Vorpal
17:25:44 <Vorpal> ais523, mistap
17:25:46 <Vorpal> tab*
17:25:47 <ais523> oh, in the winning an insult match sense
17:25:49 <Vorpal> asiekierka, ^
17:26:01 <asiekierka> thanks
17:26:05 <Vorpal> ais523, not really. I'm just describing him
17:26:09 <asiekierka> the point is i won't do a separate benchmark for 1 compiler
17:26:32 <asiekierka> i will later organize the average KFlops results into an array
17:26:35 <Vorpal> elliott, and compare yourself to ais523. Who of you is least likely to shout? Or get visibly angry?
17:26:41 <elliott> Vorpal: do you realise that for a very long time, the vast majority of immaturity in this channel has come from you saying stupid shit and then justifying it based on me being immature?
17:26:47 <ais523> Vorpal: *Which of you
17:26:49 <asiekierka> elliott: Oh?
17:26:52 <asiekierka> I thought that it was me
17:26:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I disagree.
17:26:55 <Vorpal> ais523, ah indeed
17:27:09 <ais523> selecting from a list is always which, regardless of what the list contents are
17:27:10 <elliott> ais523: please tell vorpal to shut up, he doesn't listen to me...
17:27:20 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/G6k41v7i
17:27:22 <asiekierka> my current progress
17:27:29 <Vorpal> ...
17:27:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I listen to you when you say sensible things.
17:27:57 <asiekierka> ais523: please tell elliott to try to be more balanced
17:27:59 <ais523> elliott: Vorpal: this argument's unlikely to be productive in any case
17:28:05 <Vorpal> ais523, indeed
17:28:09 <elliott> Vorpal: so, question, "revoke your ops right now because you're an unbalanced individual" is sensible?
17:28:11 <ais523> so there's not much point in continuing it
17:28:27 <ais523> unless you just like arguments for the sake of arguing, I suppose
17:28:31 <ais523> they can be fun to watch sometimes
17:29:33 <elliott> ais523: I'm just trying to get the off-topic Minecraft stuff in another channel to free up #esoteric some more, and Vorpal is refusing to use it unless I revoke my op privileges, because I'm "unbalanced" and I will kickban him or something, despite the fact that fizzie is also an op. While undoubtedly he's going to come back with his own version of events in reply to you like it's some sort of challenge to get ais to take your side, I really just
17:29:33 <elliott> want him to admit that he's a fuckface for saying that.
17:29:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I think it is sensible to carefully suggest handing over that channel to fizzie. If that is what you meant.
17:30:22 <elliott> Vorpal: do you not quite grasp how insulting what you said was?
17:30:31 <elliott> or do you just not care?
17:30:50 <Vorpal> elliott, perhaps we put different weights on the word "unbalanced"?
17:30:51 <asiekierka> STOP.
17:31:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I ask again to compare yourself to ais.
17:31:08 <asiekierka> If you don't stop immediately i will quit this channel and stop giving elliott any reason to bother/troll/anger you
17:31:16 <asiekierka> Should help
17:31:19 <asiekierka> according to what he was saying
17:31:22 <elliott> asiekierka: that's really just incentive for me to keep going, isn't it...
17:31:30 <Vorpal> elliott, again: Compare yourself to ais523. Which of you is least likely to shout? Or get visibly angry?
17:31:31 <elliott> I'm not trying to win anything, I just want an apology from Vorpal.
17:31:44 <ais523> Vorpal: that I never get visibly angry is not really evidence of anything
17:31:46 <ais523> at least, not on IRC
17:31:51 <ais523> I do get angry from time ot time
17:31:57 <ais523> *time to time
17:32:02 <ais523> but mostly in RL
17:32:12 <Vorpal> ais523, well, indeed, but the question is if you are in control of the anger or if you react like elliott.
17:32:14 <ais523> sometimes I come on here, furious at events in RL, and state that I'm angry because people couldn't tell otherwise
17:32:27 <ais523> (because when RL makes me angry, it isn't #esoteric's fault)
17:32:33 <ais523> (well, probably)
17:32:38 <Vorpal> ais523, even when you are angry, you do seem a rather calm.
17:32:43 <Vorpal> that is my point
17:32:45 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, I'm an unstable wreck of an individual who kickbans people based on random whims and then immediately deops everyone else so that nobody can undo my injustice, and I shouldn't be allowed in polite society.
17:32:48 <Vorpal> same goes for fizzie
17:32:55 <asiekierka> elliott - if you say you're so
17:32:56 <asiekierka> you are
17:32:58 <elliott> having just come above surface from a fucking year of people treating me like I'm insane:
17:33:00 <elliott> Vorpal: FUCK YOU.
17:33:03 <Vorpal> elliott, now that is a strawman.
17:33:04 <ais523> Vorpal: looking calm and being calm are different things
17:33:08 <elliott> You are on ignore, and are never coming off.
17:33:10 <asiekierka> YAY
17:33:17 <asiekierka> ELLIOTT TURNED ON MADNESS MODE
17:33:18 <Vorpal> elliott, and I never said "wreck"
17:33:22 <elliott> asiekierka: Also you.
17:33:25 <asiekierka> YAY
17:33:27 <ais523> Vorpal: that's unlikely to help...
17:33:33 <asiekierka> ELLIOTT IS GOING MORE MADNESS MODE
17:33:34 <ais523> I think you've been missing the point for the past 10 minutes
17:33:41 <Vorpal> ais523, indeed. And I think this actually proved my point.
17:33:45 <Vorpal> his reaction to this.
17:34:26 <Vorpal> yes, annoyed at my suggestion: of course. But he overreacted wildly.
17:34:52 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/aPTureza
17:34:55 <asiekierka> i'm too tired to do any more
17:35:07 <asiekierka> Vorpal - elliott behaves like me 3 years ago
17:35:09 <asiekierka> read: when i was 10 or 11
17:35:14 <asiekierka> remember me from back then?
17:35:16 <asiekierka> i was an annoyance
17:35:57 <Vorpal> asiekierka, well, to be honest, you still are annoying to some degree. Though quite a bit less than before.
17:36:05 <asiekierka> Vorpal: yeah
17:36:09 <asiekierka> see: 3 minutes ago
17:36:13 <asiekierka> when i went "lol madness mode"
17:36:22 <Vorpal> right
17:36:24 <asiekierka> also my frequent pasting of things which are useless
17:36:30 <asiekierka> like the benchmark status
17:37:10 <Vorpal> ais523, and... not reading those comma :P
17:37:16 <asiekierka> what else is there
17:37:26 <asiekierka> yes, not reading fully before asking
17:37:29 <asiekierka> also saying stupid things
17:37:39 <asiekierka> (because of lack of knowledge mostly, but still)
17:37:51 <asiekierka> did i miss anything?
17:40:06 <Vorpal> well, that's all today iirc
17:40:14 <asiekierka> yay
17:45:01 <Vorpal> ineiros, you really need to do something about your connection
17:47:21 -!- impomatic has joined.
17:55:45 <oerjan> *chirp* *a* *dirp*
17:57:29 -!- oerjan has set topic: Elliott/Vorpal Fallout, Channel Dies | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | elliott denies claim of wheat-based parentage but denies banning accusers. More at 11..
17:57:49 -!- oerjan has set topic: Elliott/Vorpal Fallout, Channel Dies | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | elliott denies claim of wheat-based parentage but also denies banning accusers. More at 11..
17:57:49 -!- elliott has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:57:59 <oerjan> HEY
17:58:14 <asiekierka> that makes me remember times
17:58:17 <asiekierka> when i was editing the topic
17:58:18 <oerjan> SOMEONE IS _REALLY_ GRUMPY
17:58:21 <asiekierka> and ehird kept changing it back
17:58:23 <elliott> I am not grumpy?
17:58:40 <oerjan> ...why did you censor the topic then
17:59:12 <elliott> Because it's only going to make things more off-topic and stupid?
17:59:19 -!- cheater- has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:59:21 <asiekierka> anyone wants a free google adwords promotional coupon code
17:59:35 <oerjan> asiekierka: no thanks
18:00:07 <Vorpal> <oerjan> SOMEONE IS _REALLY_ GRUMPY <-- that is an understatement :)
18:00:33 <oerjan> elliott: well you also removed the denial of your wheat-based parentage, so i'll assume that means you've finally admitted it
18:00:37 <elliott> yes.
18:00:41 <elliott> I am kin of Weetabix.
18:06:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, this is the year of Duke Nukem Forever's announced release.
18:06:49 <Phantom_Hoover> So weird...
18:07:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hah
18:07:30 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes, and last year we made first contact! oh wait...
18:08:29 <oerjan> well anyway it's better than back in '84 when we were under that oppressive dictatorship
18:08:43 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, as in, "the people making it have stated in no uncertain terms that it is going to be released in the second quarter of the year"
18:09:36 <oerjan> the signs of the end times are here
18:11:58 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: and Perl 6 is basically complete too, it's usable right now
18:12:24 <elliott> ais523: and duke nukem forever is written in it!
18:12:32 <Phantom_Hoover> And it runs on HURD!
18:12:38 <ais523> oh right, Hurd
18:12:39 <elliott> ais523: that's why it's taken so long to release, they had to wait for the language to exist first
18:12:44 <ais523> I knew I was missing one, just couldn't remember what it was
18:13:11 <Phantom_Hoover> It's all formally verified with Epigram 2!
18:14:21 <ais523> what would formally verifying a computer game even mean?
18:16:25 <elliott> ais523: making sure it's FUN
18:16:27 <elliott> with MATHEMATICS
18:16:33 <elliott> anyone who disagrees is obviously irrational
18:16:36 <elliott> it's been PROVEN!
18:17:50 <fizzie> Yeah, I didn't remove the "bad things might happen if you make it resizable" when I pushed the "handle resize events" change, since I'm not entirely sure it actually works.
18:18:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:18:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:19:50 <nooga> i'm playing with DrScheme because i like colorful pictures
18:19:51 <nooga> and
18:20:07 <nooga> stepping through s-exps in runtime
18:20:09 <nooga> and arrows
18:20:12 <nooga> whee
18:26:56 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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18:30:39 <elliott> Sgeo: how did you find that i did stuff with factor, anyway?
18:30:51 <asiekierka> back
18:32:14 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, how about "looking at your Github account"?
18:33:01 <elliott> Oh, that would indeed work.
18:33:06 <elliott> Black magicke.
18:33:30 <elliott> My commit had a last-minute typo, hehe... quite embarrassing when slava told me it was wrong just from looking at it.
18:34:31 <ais523> elliott: my gitorious login still has that cyclexa thing on it
18:34:39 <ais523> together with intercal, and nethack-tas-tools
18:34:46 <elliott> ais523: haha
18:34:56 <elliott> ais523: btw, as far as i can tell, github's TOS was redone
18:35:00 <elliott> and now is perfectly benign
18:35:02 <elliott> as TOSes go
18:35:08 <ais523> hmm, I'm reasonably active on both gitorious and patch-tag now
18:35:16 <elliott> patch-tag? haha
18:35:21 <elliott> but patch-tag is basically dead afaik
18:35:27 <elliott> darcsden less so
18:35:48 <ais523> who cares if it's basically dead, it hosts repos
18:36:05 <ais523> I never really understood the repo-host-as-a-social-network thing
18:36:09 <elliott> Sgeo either hates or loves darcsden because it's ran by the person who does atomo
18:36:16 <elliott> ais523: github just uses the social language as marketing
18:36:22 <elliott> ais523: it's really a "collaborative network"
18:36:33 <ais523> activity on the site as a whole doesn't matter, even if you were the site's only user it wouldn't matter as long as you can push and other people can pull
18:36:40 <elliott> ais523: the many-forks-that-get-merged-into-one model is good for a lot of projects
18:36:42 <ais523> and you can add other people to push
18:36:48 <elliott> ais523: and things like pull requests _are_ important for that
18:36:52 <elliott> which plain git lacks
18:37:00 <ais523> elliott: yes, but why can't people just register on the site to add one?
18:37:10 <elliott> ais523: plenty of people just have github repos as a mirror of git
18:37:14 <ais523> hmm, do these sites let you add a pull request from unrelated sites?
18:37:18 <ais523> if not, they should
18:37:19 <elliott> ais523: anyway, yes, it could do with more decentralisation, but that isn't much of a viable business model
18:37:22 <elliott> and no, because there's no protocol for it
18:37:31 <ais523> git://? http://?
18:37:37 <elliott> ais523: you don't know what a pull request is
18:37:44 <elliott> ais523: it only includes certain commits
18:37:55 <elliott> i believe
18:37:57 <ais523> make a branch, then, containing only those commits?
18:38:03 <elliott> ais523: I'm not saying this is how it should be, just that github is more useful than plain git for a certain model of development
18:38:24 <ais523> elliott: I agree that it might be, but I'm saying that the reasons why it is are easily genericisable
18:38:35 <elliott> sure, but they haven't been :)
18:38:59 <elliott> ais523: darcs solves this by using email
18:39:03 <elliott> which works quite well
18:39:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, see /msg
18:39:19 <ais523> elliott: do you have opinions on Google removing H.264 support from <video> on Chrome?
18:39:30 <ais523> I think it's big news but am unsure what opinion to have on it
18:39:42 <Vorpal> ais523, on what grounds did they do that?
18:40:01 <ais523> Vorpal: stated, or actual?
18:40:08 <elliott> ais523: it's the Right Thing, surely, but will almost certainly backfire, and cause more people to use Flash; WebM is /not/ a viable H.264 replacement, really, nothing is right now; but using H.264 is Wrong and basically either expensive or illegal
18:40:09 <ais523> stated grounds are probably the same as Firefox's
18:40:18 <ais523> actual, I'm not sure
18:40:19 <Vorpal> ais523, and those grounds are?
18:40:24 <ais523> H.264 needs a license
18:40:28 <Vorpal> ah
18:40:33 <elliott> ais523: in my opinion, the pragmatic-but-moral thing to do would be to keep H.264 in until <video> becomes very popular
18:40:36 <elliott> ais523: and then somehow remove it
18:40:38 <elliott> but this wouldn't work
18:40:42 <elliott> since everyone would probably use H.264
18:41:01 <ais523> there are various things you have to wonder about
18:41:07 <ais523> such as who they're trying to get leverage against
18:41:07 <elliott> ais523: therefore, I suggest, erm, holding the H.264 committee hostage until they grant an irrevocable, arbitrary-use license?
18:41:12 <ais523> and YouTube's role in all this
18:41:21 <elliott> ais523: youtube have alreayd stated they're going to keep using flash forever
18:41:22 <elliott> *already
18:41:26 <elliott> so they can show ads, and also to protect content
18:41:33 <elliott> (they have a rental service now...)
18:41:46 <ais523> yep, but they did persuade Adobe to add WebM support to Flash
18:41:47 <elliott> (and apparently they _must_ use some copy protection protocol thing, or nobody would let them do it)
18:41:55 <ais523> elliott: it's simple enough to explain
18:42:05 <ais523> all that the content providers really care about is that they're trying to stop piracy
18:42:05 <elliott> what is?
18:42:08 <elliott> right
18:42:14 <ais523> not that the attempt to stop piracy actually works
18:42:28 <Vorpal> ais523, that's illogical
18:42:29 <ais523> well, some of them care about that, but I don't think YouTube does
18:42:34 <j-invariant> hey elliott wanna see my portal
18:42:37 <elliott> j-invariant: sure
18:42:38 <ais523> they're just trying to look like they made the effort in order to impress other people
18:43:39 <j-invariant> http://i.imgur.com/wTNzO.png
18:43:57 <j-invariant> it's right in the middle of this isolated part of the desert which happens to have lava around it
18:44:05 <ais523> oh, I assumed you meant web portal, and was confused
18:44:10 <ais523> as to why you'd linked a png file
18:44:13 <j-invariant> hehe
18:44:15 <ais523> rather than the site itself
18:44:19 <j-invariant> no always everythin miinecraft
18:44:25 <ais523> Minecraft needs URLs
18:45:29 <Vorpal> j-invariant, that looks strange. Is there a rendering bug towards the camera? above where the water goes under the obsidain
18:45:32 <Vorpal> obsidian*
18:46:12 <elliott> j-invariant: i am suspecting you had some kind of obsidian accident there
18:46:13 <Vorpal> j-invariant, either that or an optical illusion
18:46:27 <elliott> also, pick up that cobble quick aieeeee
18:47:52 <ais523> elliott: thanks for reminding me about The Old New Thing; I'm currently reading the bit about why Windows 95 contained 32-bit NOPs
18:47:59 <elliott> haha
18:48:01 <elliott> ais523: see /msg btw
18:48:23 <ais523> elliott: err, it's not normally /you/ who says that..
18:48:25 <ais523> *...
18:48:29 <elliott> :P
18:48:34 <ais523> /msging me pings me
18:48:37 <j-invariant> ust be an illusion
18:48:38 <elliott> ais523: I was figuring since you were evidently unconscious before I'd be helpful.
18:48:47 <elliott> ais523: yes, but so does mentioning your name in here, and you missed that before :)
18:49:11 <ais523> it seems that some old versions of the 386 were buggy when mixing 16-bit and 32-bit instructions
18:49:50 <ais523> and using a 32-bit NOP was how they got around the problem
18:49:56 <impomatic> ais523: would it be possible to upload your BF Joust interpreter elsewhere? pastebin.ca died a while ago.
18:49:56 <ais523> (it's a regular NOP with a 32-bit length modifier)
18:50:07 <ais523> impomatic: I think I probably still have it
18:50:09 <ais523> where should I put it?
18:51:18 <ais523> hmm, I put it at http://sprunge.us/QiQO?perl
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18:52:23 <elliott> ais523: I wonder why he wants it when egojoust is better :)
18:52:27 -!- impomatic has joined.
18:52:54 <impomatic> Grrrr... Chatzilla always crashes when I click a link :-(
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18:55:17 <ais523> impomatic: you can probably remove the ?perl to get it raw
18:55:44 <ais523> egojoust is a better interp, btw, so there isn't a huge reason to want to use mine other than historical curiosity
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18:58:16 <impomatic> Is the code for egojoust available?
18:58:16 <td123> hi, does the brainfuck environment assume an infinite memory with a beginning or not? for instance, is < possible as the first command
18:59:00 <elliott> impomatic: yes
18:59:03 <elliott> Gregor: ^
18:59:11 <elliott> td123: It's not specified, but usually "no".
18:59:34 <elliott> td123: The "standard" brainfuck is a right-infinite (not left; i.e. there is a cell 0) tape, of 8-bit unsigned wrapping values.
19:00:04 <ais523> td123: it depends on the interpreter, but going left past the start is generally considered nonportable at best, and hardly any interps let you do it
19:00:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, see that /msg!
19:00:14 <ais523> the language's actual definition doesn't say
19:00:57 <td123> the languages definition needs to be amended :)
19:01:18 <elliott> td123: no it doesn't, it basically has none
19:01:27 <td123> oh ok
19:01:30 <ais523> a standard bf would be really useful
19:01:35 <elliott> i doubt urban müller really cares at this point :)
19:01:39 <ais523> that's what eso-std.org was theoretically for until it completely collapsed
19:01:58 <td123> then there needs to be a standard definition created
19:02:07 <td123> :p
19:02:38 <elliott> td123: except it ends up either stating the obvious, or being useless
19:02:42 <ais523> anyway, you can talk about what "good" BF interps do most frequently: left-bounded, right-infinite, 8-bit wrapping
19:02:46 <ais523> the major point of contention is EOF
19:02:56 <td123> elliott: well, stuff like this should be in the standard
19:03:16 <ais523> td123: I agree
19:03:50 <td123> well, thanks guys
19:03:51 -!- td123 has left (?).
19:03:52 <ais523> I'd personally suggest unchanged-on-EOF if you're planning to write an interp, as it's easy to make programs portable to both that and one of the other EOF conventions
19:04:06 <ais523> hmm, that was strange
19:04:13 <ais523> it's like me going into #tcl or whatever to ask one question
19:04:34 <ais523> td123 was doing exactly that, with exactly the right channel, but with a BF question
19:04:43 <ais523> impomatic: oh, missed your comment earlier; I have a copy, at least, it's open-source
19:04:44 <elliott> why #tcl?
19:05:03 <elliott> impomatic: here you go:
19:05:15 <elliott> impomatic: http://codu.org/projects/trac/egobot/browser/multibot_cmds/interps/bfjoust/
19:05:18 -!- choochter has quit (Quit: lang may yer lum reek..).
19:05:19 <elliott> erm, why is that trac
19:05:21 <elliott> let me get you a better link
19:05:24 <elliott> !help
19:05:33 <impomatic> There's a new version of TclRobots in progress http://tclrobots.org
19:05:34 <ais523> elliott: I was trying to debug a program written in TCL
19:05:38 <elliott> *Tcl
19:05:42 <impomatic> Elliott: thanks :-)
19:05:44 <ais523> that someone else had written
19:05:50 <ais523> and TCL is definitely an acronym
19:05:56 <ais523> unless it's a really good backronym
19:05:57 -!- augur has joined.
19:05:59 <elliott> impomatic: here's a better link:
19:06:04 <elliott> ais523: yes, but it is written Tcl
19:06:16 <ais523> hmm
19:06:47 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
19:06:52 <ais523> I don't know how to get a raw version from trac
19:07:13 <ais523> although I've found the syntax-highlighted source, and I'm sure impomatic could remove the line numbers if necessary
19:07:28 <elliott> impomatic: https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/tip/multibot_cmds/interps/bfjoust/
19:07:34 <elliott> impomatic: egojoust.c is the one you want, report.c will also be useful
19:07:48 <ais523> ah, found it: http://codu.org/projects/trac/egobot/export/115%3A0fe16032eb2b/multibot_cmds/interps/bfjoust/egojoust.c
19:08:01 <ais523> hmm, and we both found different links
19:08:06 <ais523> impomatic: there it is, anyway
19:08:22 <ais523> and no, I don't have elliott on ignore, I was just trying to do the same thing in parallel
19:08:56 <elliott> ais523: your link might be from an older revision
19:09:00 <elliott> mine always points to the latest
19:10:15 <Gregor> Well, elliott answered before I got back, that was easy :P
19:10:23 <Gregor> impomatic: If you make improvements, gimme a bundle.
19:10:26 <Gregor> (hg bundle)
19:10:30 <ais523> elliott: mine was from the latest
19:10:38 <elliott> ais523: but what if gregor commits right now?
19:10:47 <Gregor> Highly unlikely :P
19:11:23 <elliott> fizzie: Does //save only work once or something?
19:11:53 <elliott> Ah, no.
19:11:57 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:12:53 <fizzie> It can be a bit brittle.
19:13:43 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
19:14:31 <elliott> fizzie: Do you flush the socket after the first informational message?
19:14:36 <elliott> They seem to come at the same time.
19:15:47 <elliott> fizzie: Ha, mcmap's output is of a very similar format to the Minecraft server's.
19:16:08 <fizzie> I don't do any explicit TCP queue hinting, I just send() each packet separately.
19:16:37 <Sgeo> I suppose it's not known that Aurora is not malware, is it?
19:16:56 <elliott> What is Aurora?
19:17:02 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/f3vls/im_an_indie_game_author_and_today_im_releasing_my/
19:17:23 <elliott> Considering people in the comments are saying it's a good game, I very much doubt it.
19:18:21 <ais523> a good game can contain malware
19:19:24 <elliott> ais523: Still.
19:19:35 <elliott> I doubt an indie dev would be both a good game-maker and resort to malware.
19:20:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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19:21:18 <elliott> wb ais523
19:21:28 <ais523> ty
19:21:33 <ais523> blame my connection
19:25:43 <elliott> fizzie: Wow, the server software really doesn't like it when you explode a lot of TNT.
19:31:02 <olsner> meh, stop trying to talk to me in the mornings so the line disappears from the scrollback before I get home
19:31:10 <elliott> :D
19:33:08 <fizzie> Anyhoo, what did I hear about there being a separate channel?
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19:33:21 <oerjan> olsner: the logs are thataway
19:33:35 <elliott> fizzie: Vorpal won't use it because I only opped you with founder privileges and didn't deop myself, and I'm unstable or something.
19:33:45 <olsner> oerjan: yah, have everything logged locally as well
19:33:47 <elliott> So actually come to think of it, it's a wonderful channel to use.
19:33:54 <elliott> fizzie: #esoteric-mincraft
19:33:55 <elliott> *minecraft
19:34:02 <olsner> Jan 17 16:41:14 <elliott>19:14:41 <olsner> hmm, you seem to have pasted a tex document and not a runnable or compileable program
19:34:03 <olsner> Jan 17 16:41:20 <elliott>olsner: ENHAAAAAANCED CWEEEEEEEEEEB
19:34:21 <olsner> cweb is now pronounced shweeeeeeb
19:34:37 <ais523> elliott: I had someone in an unrelated channel a while ago ask me if CLCLC-INTERCAL was the current version
19:34:44 <oerjan> no, kweeeeeeb!
19:34:45 <ais523> based on the info on the wiki
19:35:05 <olsner> oerjan: No. That makes no sense.
19:35:05 <elliott> ais523: haha, wow
19:35:09 <ais523> I replied that it was zzo38, and someone else in the channel actually knew what I meant
19:36:08 <elliott> ais523: wow, who?
19:36:21 <elliott> I know he's in other places, but I wouldn't expect them to overlap
19:36:33 <variable> Custom graphics programming sucks
19:36:34 <ais523> BagOfMagicFood
19:36:34 <variable> :-}
19:36:41 <elliott> ais523: probably a ZZTer
19:36:48 <ais523> and zzo38's all over the place, and is obviously memorable when he turns up anywhere
19:37:22 <elliott> ais523: is he all over the place?
19:37:49 <oerjan> olsner: everything makes sense with bacon!
19:37:59 <ais523> elliott: several forums, at least
19:38:04 <ais523> often in the past
19:38:15 <elliott> I know he used to spell things insanely
19:39:06 <olsner> oerjan: oh! you meant with *bacon*?
19:39:11 <olsner> then it makes perfect sense
19:39:16 -!- impomatic has left (?).
19:39:24 <variable> elliott, does this channel give cloaks?
19:40:16 <Gregor> In the distant past I recall trying to get that together, but nobody cared :P
19:40:28 <ais523> variable: I don't think so
19:40:40 <elliott> variable: No.
19:41:20 <variable> Gregor, I just want a non-unaffiliated cloak :-}
19:41:29 -!- augur has changed nick to VoiceOver.
19:41:37 -!- VoiceOver has changed nick to sugur.
19:41:39 <Gregor> I'm happy with no cloak.
19:41:42 <Gregor> 'cuz my hostname RULES.
19:41:47 <Gregor> It rocks the proverbial casbah.
19:42:00 <variable> Gregor, I need monies to get a hostname with RDNS :-(
19:42:21 <Sgeo> I'd still love to see a Minecart network for gathering the lava for the cube
19:43:35 <Gregor> HEY
19:43:39 <Gregor> Why'd the topic turn all lamesauce.
19:45:14 -!- Gregor has set topic: Official Victims of Esoteric Topics in Computing Support Channel | Using this doll, tell us where BrainFucked you | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:45:29 -!- Gregor has set topic: Official Victims of Esoteric Topics in Computing Anonymous support channel | Using this doll, tell us where BrainFucked you | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:46:37 <Phantom_Hoover> OVETCA?
19:46:48 <Gregor> VETCA
19:46:58 <Gregor> "Official" is an adjective describing the channel.
19:47:41 <oerjan> Gregor: elliott had certain ...issues... with the previous topic
19:47:59 <Gregor> Mmmm. His Weetabix dad didn't like it.
19:48:00 <Gregor> Got it.
19:48:11 <Deewiant> Not that one.
19:48:12 <elliott> I'm fine with the Weetabix topic. :p
19:48:28 <Gregor> Oh, then I guess I missed some topic changes :P
19:48:30 <ais523> I like this topic
19:48:32 <elliott> Deewiant: Aah, stop being the omnipresent fact-device, is creepy!
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19:50:50 -!- sugur has changed nick to augur.
19:50:57 <Guest09438> hey, you lot, you should all start being anonymous!
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19:51:14 <Gregor> augur: I preferred your previous nick.
19:51:16 <elliott> Guest09438: wow, I /predicted/ you were going to justify that name change based on it being an anonymous support channel
19:51:18 <elliott> just from seeing my tab title change
19:51:25 <Vorpal> <elliott> fizzie: Vorpal won't use it because I only opped you with founder privileges and didn't deop myself, and I'm unstable or something. <-- you mean that you tend to easily get into a rage and overreact. Which is all that I said and implied.
19:51:27 <augur> Gregor: ;x
19:52:17 <Guest09438> elliott: that's like coppro predicting my message to Agora saying "I object" based solely on the headers
19:54:08 <oerjan> I prepositional phrase
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19:59:31 <Sgeo> Oh wow
20:00:06 <Sgeo> Ioke's ... specs thing (that's what it's called in Scala, don't know what it's called in Ioke) provides automatically generated documentation
20:01:04 <Sgeo> ISpec
20:02:03 <cheater-> http://www.thinq.co.uk/2011/1/17/man-tunnels-gamestop-steals-games/
20:02:19 <j-invariant> too much minecraft...
20:02:19 <cheater-> and you just know that it's nothing more than a minecraft marketing hoax
20:02:23 <cheater-> yes
20:02:32 <Sgeo> http://ioke.org/wiki/index.php/ISpec looks too much like English at first glance
20:02:48 <cheater-> obviously he wasn't using a diamond pickaxe though
20:05:56 <Sgeo> "The words "be" and "have" are ignored in the expectations. They are so called fluff words - that are only there to make it more readable."
20:06:00 <Sgeo> Ah, that makes sense, then
20:10:11 <ais523> <Raymond Chen> I later learned that the Windows NT folks do try to keep the numerical values of process ID from getting too big. Earlier this century, the kernel team experimented with letting the numbers get really huge, in order to reduce the rate at which process IDs get reused, but they had to go back to small numbers, not for any technical reasons, but because people complained that the large process IDs looked ugly in Task Manager. (One
20:10:12 <ais523> customer even asked if something was wrong with his computer.)
20:10:38 <ais523> I get the impression that some Microsoft customers are really stupid (although that's not the fault of the company, and probably true for any large company)
20:11:31 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, the reason for that is that Microsoft have market dominance and most people are idiots.
20:11:49 <ais523> yep
20:12:45 <Ilari> Looking at APNIC stats... Very probably APNIC has already sent the request...
20:14:13 <ais523> I was discussing that at work today
20:14:41 <ais523> if the request has been sent, how long until ICANN/IANA grant it?
20:16:01 <Ilari> Lagerholm expected few days to process it... Could be faster, nobody knows as RIRs don't announce requests.
20:16:34 <ais523> so by next week, we're out of /8s?
20:16:43 <Ilari> Extremely likely.
20:17:08 <Ilari> I don't see IANA pool to stand even this week.
20:20:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:23:27 <Ilari> APNIC extended delegated file says 30 260 992 IPs available (1.804x/8)
20:23:54 <Ilari> The bar graph says 1.82x/8
20:28:20 <Sgeo> elliott
20:28:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, down?
20:28:58 <Sgeo> What would you think of an Io-like or Ioke-like language where objects are immutable?
20:29:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, yes.
20:29:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well I guess I lost a painting then
20:29:22 <Vorpal> ah up
20:29:29 <elliott> Sgeo: Uhh, it would be interesting, at least.
20:29:41 <Sgeo> http://olabini.com/blog/2010/07/preannouncing-seph/
20:30:04 <Sgeo> Oh, it's meant to go into the real-world
20:30:15 <Sgeo> Which.. yeah, it sounds more like an experimental idea really
20:30:59 <elliott> Sgeo: "go into the real-world"?
20:31:11 <Sgeo> "So the purpose of Seph is to take Ioke into the real world while retaining enough of what made Ioke a very nice language to work with."
20:31:27 <elliott> It looks interesting.
20:32:11 <Sgeo> "As mentioned above, the module system is also not new - its in fact heavily inspired of Newspeak. Having "
20:32:16 <Sgeo> I am now in a very good mood
20:32:20 <oerjan> but it'll still be a bit of a ioke language
20:34:46 <elliott> Sgeo: "I understood that the ability to modify peers and parents in the parse tree was part of what made Ioke’s macros more powerful than Lisp macros."
20:34:51 <elliott> Holy crap, that is the worst idea I have ever heard.
20:35:46 <Sgeo> Um, I don't remember reading anything in the guide about that, tbh
20:36:22 <Sgeo> I do know you can ignore what looks like messages. method() can read the message chains sent to it and interpret them differently
20:37:07 <Sgeo> method(y 5, stuff) is a method with y as an optional argument, for instance
20:40:25 <j-invariant> hhahaahahahaha
20:40:35 <j-invariant> mmodify the parents of a parse tree LOL whatnext
20:41:27 <Sgeo> Point me in the guide where it teaches you to do that
20:44:33 <elliott> j-invariant: macros are just functions from the contents of your entire hard drive to the new state
20:45:39 <j-invariant> more powerful than Ioke!
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20:52:13 <zzo38> Is PBM a good way to store the rendered layers of a DVI page?
20:53:32 <Sgeo> Seph looks like it's going to take a bunch of stuff from Clojure. I don't know why people hate Clojure, but is Seph taking the good stuff or the bad stuff?
20:53:48 <elliott> Why do you assume anyone has any idea what bits it is taking...
20:54:05 <zzo38> Sgeo: Maybe some of each? I don't know. Maybe different people have opinion of what things are good stuff.
20:56:40 <elliott> j-invariant: have you ever looked at http://www.ats-lang.org/? it seems like an interesting application of dependent-types
20:57:02 <Sgeo> A NEW LANGUAGE?
20:57:03 <Sgeo> GIMME
20:57:04 <elliott> j-invariant: & proving
20:57:06 <elliott> Sgeo: it's not new.
20:57:20 <elliott> wait i know how to turn Sgeo off
20:57:24 <elliott> Sgeo: this is quicksort: http://www.ats-lang.org/EXAMPLE/MISC/quicksort_list_dats.html
20:57:54 <Sgeo> Um
20:58:06 <elliott> success
20:58:09 <Sgeo> a) Why did you assume that would turn me off? b) You appear to be correct
20:58:28 <elliott> (a) ZOMG IT IS COMPLICATED HOW CAN J. RANDOM INCOMPETENT PROGRAMMER USE THIS IT CAN'T TAKE OVER THE WORLD IT SUCKS
20:58:48 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe j-invariant want to see it
20:58:53 <Vorpal> he is likely at spawn
20:58:59 <elliott> Sgeo: I am of course being completely misleading: you cannot write that program in almost every other language, and you can translate what most languages call a quicksort program into ATS much, much shorter than that.
20:59:05 <Vorpal> elliott, since he was walking into a cactus outside for over 10 seconds
20:59:11 <Sgeo> Ah
20:59:13 <Vorpal> oh wait you ignore me
20:59:15 <Vorpal> *shurg*
20:59:18 <Vorpal> shrug*
21:00:23 <Sgeo> I remember seeing the tutorial before
21:00:25 <elliott> Sgeo: Specifically, that is a quicksort implementation that not only returns the sorted list, but also a proof that the list is sorted.
21:00:33 <elliott> You could easily translate a quicksort without verification into ATS.
21:00:49 <elliott> Sgeo: (That is, if that program compiles, then you know at compile-time that it always sorts lists correctly.)
21:01:33 <Sgeo> What if there's a bug in what you say you're trying to prove that matches a bug in the algorithm itself?
21:01:41 <Sgeo> Or is that generally unlikely to happen?
21:01:46 -!- calamari has joined.
21:01:51 <Sgeo> Or, as seems likely, am I completely clueless?
21:01:57 <elliott> Sgeo: Basically the latter. :p
21:02:02 <elliott> It is very hard to misstate simple properties.
21:02:13 <elliott> And generally getting an error to _correspond_ with an error in the program is nearly impossible.
21:02:16 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:02:20 <Sgeo> Ah
21:02:25 <elliott> Sgeo: Basically the grounds for what you are saying are as valid for ATS as they are for, say, doubting any mathematical proof.
21:02:29 <elliott> "You could have proven the *wrong* theorem!"
21:04:26 <oerjan> "I'm sorry that's just a proof of Fermat's _second_ to last Theorem".
21:08:23 <Vorpal> oerjan, which one was that?
21:09:25 <oerjan> heck if _i_ know
21:09:25 <j-invariant> 21:02 < elliott> (a) ZOMG IT IS COMPLICATED HOW CAN J. RANDOM INCOMPETENT PROGRAMMER USE THIS IT CAN'T TAKE OVER THE WORLD IT SUCKS
21:09:29 <j-invariant> 21:03 < Vorpal> elliott, I believe j-invariant want to see it
21:09:29 <j-invariant> J-RANDOM-INVARIANT
21:09:34 <elliott> xD
21:09:36 <elliott> j-invariant: reconnect :P
21:10:29 <oerjan> (SETF (J-RANDOM-INVARIANT X) 3)
21:11:35 <Sgeo> How does J. Random Incompetent learn a language like Java, anyway?
21:11:49 <Sgeo> Why aren't they all learning something with a simple syntax?
21:12:03 <Sgeo> Like a Lisp, or Python, or something
21:16:00 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:16:41 <elliott> Sgeo: Java is easy.
21:16:44 <elliott> To learn badly.
21:27:57 <calamari> Sgeo: eclipse interactively points out Java errors, that's pretty helpful
21:28:00 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
21:31:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Back.
21:33:27 <Sgeo> wn
21:33:28 <Sgeo> wb
21:35:50 <cheater-> calamari: yes, that's called "intellisense"
21:36:11 <cheater-> it autocompletes what you're typing into the error you've been looking for, so that you don't have to go to w3schools
21:36:32 <calamari> lol
21:37:03 <calamari> didn't realize w3schools taught Java too
21:37:20 <cheater-> me either, i hadn't even checked either
21:38:03 <calamari> cool, I think I have the android-side of this phone-as-drawing tablet program done.. now just need the python script for xlib
21:39:13 <calamari> I already expect it to really suck, but I'm not 100% sure exactly how yet :)
21:43:18 <Ilari> Anyway, all the estimates are going to hit either zero or some processing delay tomorrow...
21:45:18 <elliott> calamari: w3schools? seriously?
21:45:31 <elliott> why would anyone...
21:46:25 <Sgeo> "In Ioke you can change the AST that you're currently executing, which is horrible from a performance standpoint"
21:47:11 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's actually easy to throw shit together in Java.
21:47:28 <pikhq> It just makes it a bit of a pain to do more complicated stuff.
21:48:07 <calamari> elliott: sorry, wut?
21:48:39 <pikhq> Ilari: Yay, depletion.
21:48:44 <elliott> calamari: Well, w3schools is just about the worst website ever, considering that it is popular solely because of a false portrayed relation to W3C, despite the fact that it is comprised mostly of incorrect information and bad advice.
21:49:08 <calamari> elliott: I was responding to cheater-'s comment
21:49:10 <pikhq> Ilari: Oh, BTW: IANA is now sitting at *1.82* /8s.
21:49:19 <elliott> calamari: Oh. I have him on ignore.
21:49:29 <Ilari> APNIC is so low that I think they have already sent the request...
21:49:30 <elliott> Sorry for the confusion.
21:49:32 <calamari> np
21:49:38 <pikhq> Ilari: Erm, s/IANA/APNIC/
21:49:46 <pikhq> *Surely* they've sent it by now.
21:50:43 <calamari> elliott: however, that said, I'm sure it's crap.. but there is lots of content so if you need to get stuff done quick without regard to standards, it's nice
21:51:13 <olsner> heh, the annual apnic fee is 1180x1.3^(log2(Addresses)-8)
21:51:30 <calamari> we out of ipv4 addresses yet?
21:51:37 <elliott> almost
21:51:57 <Ilari> calamari: AFAIK, not yet, but IANA depletion it is matter of hours or at most days... Not weeks.
21:51:58 <calamari> how about now?
21:52:03 <calamari> :P
21:52:23 <Ilari> Nope...
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21:54:06 <Ilari> Knowing about address space requests would enable computing much better estimates. But those aren't announced so no better estimate can be currently given than a few days at most...
21:54:25 -!- theechelon has joined.
21:54:35 <calamari> "The depletion of the IPv4 allocation pool has been a concern since the late 1980s..."
21:54:45 <Gregor> lol
21:56:00 -!- theechelon has quit (Client Quit).
21:56:39 -!- acetoline has joined.
21:57:03 * Sgeo dislikes light-weight threads
22:00:15 <Ilari> At present allocation rates, APNIC would be in its last /8 in like 5 months...
22:00:49 <Ilari> And the rates can increase if run-on-the-bank scenario comes to pass...
22:02:10 <pikhq> Which it actually seems to be.
22:02:24 <pikhq> The allocation rate has definitely been ramping up.
22:03:35 <Ilari> Currently ipv4depletion shows total allocation rate of about 1.90/30days. I have seen figures as high as 1.98/30days.
22:05:08 <Ilari> That would be about 24 /8s in a year (likely transistent spike, but..)
22:06:12 <pikhq> APNIC alone has seen .62 /8s allocated this week.
22:07:00 <Ilari> Current IANA and RIR stocks combined are about 22.2x/8.
22:08:12 <Ilari> Oops (not counting reserved blocks), about 22.6 or so...
22:12:16 <elliott> Sgeo: Why.
22:12:46 <Sgeo> Because they don't take advantage of multi-core processors, afaik
22:13:06 <elliott> Sgeo: They do.
22:13:12 <elliott> You just have one thread-switcher for each core.
22:14:59 <Phantom_Hoover> http://imgur.com/a/OAhrI
22:15:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Oops. Wrong channel.
22:15:59 <Sgeo> #esoteric is never the wrong channel for Minecraft
22:16:59 <elliott> Sgeo: Yes it is, #esoteric-minecraft exists now.
22:17:15 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Nice.
22:17:36 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, yeah, but it beats our subrary!
22:17:38 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:18:03 * pikhq "just" has a gigantic glass-covered quarry. Need to figure out what to do with the results.
22:18:42 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, wait, have you bought MC?
22:18:44 <elliott> pikhq: I was about to say you should ask for the server address, but you're still a filthy pirate and therefore can't connect.
22:19:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No, but it's my next purchase when I have expendable income.
22:19:24 <elliott> pikhq: Have you developed a healthy hate for Notch yet?
22:19:38 <pikhq> Fucking bastard.
22:19:51 <elliott> pikhq: :D
22:24:45 <Sgeo> Does Lapis Lazuli have a reason to exist?
22:24:50 <Sgeo> erm, I mean, blocks
22:24:53 <elliott> Sgeo: Pretty.
22:25:06 <Sgeo> Are Lapis Lazuli blocks prettier than wool?
22:25:19 <elliott> Yes.
22:25:22 <Sgeo> dyed with Lapis Lazuli
22:25:23 <Sgeo> What?
22:25:41 * Sgeo finds that bizarre
22:27:20 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:27:28 -!- elliott has joined.
22:27:41 <Sgeo> Does a single sheep produce infinite wool?
22:27:45 <elliott> No...
22:27:53 <j-invariant> huh
22:28:08 <Sgeo> Aww
22:28:21 <j-invariant> there are infinite sheep though
22:30:53 <elliott> updog
22:30:53 <updog> What's updog?
22:30:56 <elliott> i dunno
22:30:59 <elliott> what is updog
22:30:59 <updog> What's updog?
22:31:16 <olsner> the not at all downcat
22:32:01 <j-invariant> What's updog?
22:32:01 <updog> What's updog?
22:38:54 <Vorpal> elliott, current build system is broken. It doesn't rebuild after git pull followed by make when a few files were upgraded
22:39:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, it does.
22:39:17 <elliott> Vorpal: It was a bit broken before; rm -rf build and try again.
22:39:18 <Vorpal> no, cmd.c, cmd.h and main.c were upgraded
22:39:19 <elliott> It should work in future.
22:39:22 <Vorpal> elliott, ah
22:39:39 <Vorpal> elliott, why do you built it all in one?
22:39:43 <Vorpal> this way -j2 won't help
22:39:43 <elliott> Eh?
22:39:44 <Vorpal> :P
22:39:47 <elliott> I don't.
22:39:48 <Vorpal> there is one cc line
22:39:51 <Vorpal> a single one
22:39:52 <elliott> o_O
22:39:56 <elliott> Sprunge please
22:40:06 <Vorpal> elliott, in fact it doesn't build properly at all
22:40:09 <Vorpal> elliott, in a sec
22:40:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Sprunge the make output.
22:41:10 <Vorpal> elliott, here: http://sprunge.us/GaYX
22:41:43 <Vorpal> elliott, that looks wrong
22:42:09 <Vorpal> elliott, system is ubuntu 10.04 LTS
22:42:35 <elliott> Vorpal: (this should be in #esoteric-minecraft, but)
22:42:36 <elliott> Uhh
22:42:43 <Vorpal> elliott, no local changes
22:42:44 <elliott> I have no fucking idea. You have Makefile.common, right?
22:42:51 <Vorpal> yes
22:42:58 <elliott> Can you sprunge the output of ls -R in the mcmap dir?
22:43:31 <Vorpal> elliott, http://sprunge.us/OPDK
22:43:45 <Vorpal> elliott, seems it generate those .d
22:44:12 <elliott> Yes, those are the dependency files.
22:44:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Sprunge build/main.d, please
22:44:41 <Vorpal> elliott, http://sprunge.us/YKSS
22:45:08 <Vorpal> elliott, btw make build/main.o does nothing
22:45:23 <Vorpal> elliott, exit code 2
22:45:25 <Vorpal> from make
22:45:33 <Vorpal> elliott, but completely silent output
22:45:34 <elliott> Vorpal: make clean; make -n
22:45:40 <Vorpal> elliott, what have you done to poor make!
22:45:48 <elliott> how can you detect eof in bash, does anyone know?
22:45:51 <elliott> of an fd
22:46:03 <Vorpal> elliott, http://sprunge.us/GiBG
22:46:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think you can
22:46:27 <Vorpal> elliott, or maybe through trap
22:46:31 <Vorpal> to trap SIGsomething
22:46:32 <j-invariant> elliott: see #haskell
22:46:38 <j-invariant> elliott: haskell is dying
22:46:39 <Vorpal> j-invariant, this is more important
22:47:15 <Vorpal> j-invariant, anything else to test?
22:47:17 <Vorpal> err
22:47:19 <Vorpal> elliott, ^
22:47:43 <elliott> Vorpal: What make version...
22:47:56 <calamari> it's true, netcraft confirms it!
22:48:03 <Vorpal> elliott, 3.81
22:48:32 <elliott> Me too.
22:48:36 <elliott> Let me try a clean checkout.
22:48:38 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway why is the exit code 2?
22:48:43 <Vorpal> elliott, what does that mean?
22:48:49 <elliott> NFC
22:48:58 <Vorpal> elliott, the man page doesn't say
22:49:01 <Vorpal> I could check info
22:49:03 <elliott> What, I get the same.
22:49:11 <elliott> But my local copy works fine.
22:49:23 <Vorpal> elliott, what are your local changes?
22:49:30 <elliott> Wait, wait.
22:49:33 <elliott> There are differences in the dirtrees.
22:49:35 <elliott> Ahahahaha.
22:49:40 <elliott> I forgot to add cmddefs.h to the repository.
22:49:41 <Vorpal> elliott, what is it?
22:49:48 <Vorpal> elliott, why doesn't it error out LOUDLY?
22:49:51 <Vorpal> like make usually does
22:50:01 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't know, but I've fixed it, so I don't care :P
22:50:05 <elliott> Pushing the file.
22:50:07 <Vorpal> elliott, if you tell me you suppressed that then I'll stab you :P
22:50:13 <elliott> I suppressed nothin' at all.
22:50:17 <elliott> Make is just weird.
22:50:19 <Vorpal> hm okay
22:50:29 <Vorpal> how long does the push take?
22:50:29 <elliott> OK, git pull; make clean; make -j3
22:50:35 <elliott> It's done now.
22:51:04 <Vorpal> elliott, cmddefs.h is weird
22:51:20 <Vorpal> elliott, THERE IS NO DUAL INCLUDE GUARD !?!?!? ;P
22:51:49 <olsner> maybe they use #pragma once instead
22:51:54 <olsner> or #import
22:51:57 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway why didn't you find it using ls -R ?
22:51:58 <elliott> Vorpal: There shouldn't be one.
22:52:08 <elliott> Also, I was looking to see if you had an old build directory or something.
22:52:15 <elliott> Vorpal: cmddefs.h is an X-Macros data file.
22:52:20 <elliott> See cmd.h and cmd.c for where it's used.
22:52:47 <Vorpal> hm
22:53:37 <Vorpal> elliott, X-Macros?
22:54:03 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_preprocessor#X-Macros
22:54:41 <elliott> Gah, why does bash's read hang rather than exiting.
22:54:50 <Vorpal> elliott, so where is the light mode found?
22:54:59 <elliott> fizzie has not yet committed it.
22:55:02 <Vorpal> elliott, that is what made me give up on envbot
22:55:03 <Vorpal> elliott, ah
22:55:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Funny -- I'm writing an IRC client too.
22:55:18 <elliott> (Just a trivial logbot for #-minecraft.)
22:55:24 <Vorpal> elliott, in bash: don't
22:55:26 <elliott> (Insert the "esoteric" yourself.)
22:55:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, it's actually *done*, the only remaining thing is to handle the server deciding to cancel our connection for whatever reason.
22:55:47 <elliott> Admittedly that is a bit of a showstopper.
22:55:53 <elliott> I'll do it in Ruby instead.
22:56:12 <Vorpal> ruby? aiee
22:56:24 <elliott> Vorpal: As opposed to what, Perl?
22:56:32 <elliott> It's nicer for sockets than Python.
22:56:39 <Vorpal> elliott, hm... .... erlang?
22:56:58 <olsner> I want predicated instructions, all this jumping is so dirty :(
22:59:05 <elliott> Vorpal: No :P
22:59:19 <elliott> And with Haskell it'd all be in the IO monad due to OSes sucking so there's little point
23:02:14 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving).
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23:09:52 <elliott> -NickServ- Registered : Sep 22 23:22:44 2010 (16 weeks, 4 days, 23:51:16 ago)
23:09:55 <elliott> is that unused enough to drop?
23:10:15 <elliott> Wait.
23:10:15 <elliott> -NickServ- Last seen : (about 16 weeks ago)
23:10:23 <elliott> Vorpal: is that unused enough to drop?
23:10:41 <Vorpal> elliott, what nick is it?
23:10:49 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm not telling you that :-P
23:10:56 <Vorpal> elliott, is it one of mine?
23:10:59 <elliott> No.
23:11:16 <Vorpal> elliott, what if I promise not to steal it? I actually do keep promises
23:11:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Okay, fine. It's Herobrine, for the #-minecraft logbot.
23:11:38 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I think it is old enough
23:11:41 <elliott> \o/
23:11:41 <myndzi> |
23:11:42 <myndzi> >\
23:11:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Do you think #freenode will one day realise that I've asked them to drop maybe 15 nicks? :P
23:12:04 <elliott> Thankfully I've done them all with different nicks. Mwahahaha!
23:12:30 <Vorpal> I asked them to drop maybe 4 or 5
23:12:45 -!- elliott has changed nick to Herobrine.
23:12:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Yay!
23:13:13 <Herobrine> oerjan:
23:13:14 <Herobrine> The bartender says, "We don't serve tachyons in here."
23:13:14 <Herobrine> A tachyon walks into a bar.
23:13:24 <Herobrine> Phantom_Hoover: Not quite dropped yet.
23:13:25 <Sgeo> :D
23:13:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Herobrine, that is utterly awful.
23:13:34 <Herobrine> *THE BEST
23:13:41 <Sgeo> I liked it
23:13:49 * Sgeo watches Herobrine explode
23:13:54 <Herobrine> SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
23:14:01 <Herobrine> THEN WHO WAS CREEPER
23:14:02 <Phantom_Hoover> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHEROBRINEISACREEPER
23:14:15 <Herobrine> Oh my god. I know what it should do.
23:14:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Uh-oh.
23:14:24 <Vorpal> Herobrine, wtf at /ns info creeper
23:14:32 <Herobrine> The logbot should say monster noises every interval, as long as it's UTC night time.
23:14:36 <Herobrine> *$interval
23:14:48 <Vorpal> Herobrine, $interval * random()
23:14:50 <Vorpal> or something
23:14:51 <Herobrine> Yes.
23:15:01 <Sgeo> Anyone want to get Creeper in here?
23:15:01 <Vorpal> night
23:15:10 <Vorpal> Sgeo, we have no clue who it is...
23:15:23 <Sgeo> That just makes it more fun!
23:15:33 <Vorpal> + [Creeper] #pywikipediabot <--- wait, why am I still there
23:15:35 <Sgeo> Oh
23:15:44 <Herobrine> You do realise that creeper has... certain non-Minecraft-related connotations :P
23:15:45 * Vorpal looks
23:15:46 <Sgeo> I misread <Herobrine> The logbot should say monster noises every interval, as long as it's UTC night time. as coming from Creeper's iinfo
23:15:48 <Herobrine> But then, registered recently, so perhaps not.
23:15:49 <Vorpal> Herobrine, that too
23:16:11 <Vorpal> no way we get that idiot in here
23:16:21 <Herobrine> Nub/pie/taco doesn't inspire confidence.
23:16:30 <Vorpal> Herobrine, well I share a channel with the guy
23:16:33 <Vorpal> and it is a noob
23:16:38 <Herobrine> Oh.
23:16:40 <Vorpal> of the worst sort
23:16:49 <Vorpal> Herobrine, a whiny noob
23:16:56 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
23:16:58 <Herobrine> As a whiny noob, I take offence.
23:17:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:17:21 <Vorpal> night ↑↑
23:17:25 <Herobrine> Prodgeo appears to not actually be an op, so my hopes of a quick drop appear unfounded.
23:21:14 <pikhq> Wow.
23:21:25 <pikhq> In some US states, illegal drugs are taxed.
23:22:23 <pikhq> If a drug dealer is arrested without having paid the appropriate taxes, the state would seek money owed on it.
23:22:55 <pikhq> To make it more likely that the taxes actually *get paid*, one pays said taxes anonymously, and receives a stamp as proof of payment.
23:28:27 -!- j-invariant has joined.
23:28:35 <Herobrine> pikhq: Awesome.
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23:41:11 <Sgeo> I'm getting the feeling that for a languages addict, Standard ML is a good language to learn, not because of anything interesting in Standard ML itself, but because so much stuff uses similar ...thingy
23:41:50 <j-invariant> if you are saying that one should learn about SML then I agree
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23:47:46 <Herobrine> Sgeo: a languages addict should dedicate their life to learning @lang.
23:48:21 <Sgeo> I intend to learn as much as I can once there si more information than "It's a language"
23:48:52 <Herobrine> Sgeo: Ask a question, get an answer.
23:49:14 <Sgeo> Is @ a lisp?
23:51:49 <Sgeo> ATS's main is curried?
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23:52:03 <Sgeo> Wait, no
23:52:36 <Herobrine> Sgeo: @lang is not a lisp.
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