00:02:25 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:03:56 -!- wareya has joined. 00:09:00 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:11:54 -!- chickenzilla has left (?). 00:21:44 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:31:51 "J – It is unbeatable if you have RSI and need to type as little characters as possible for a task that can be applied to a whole array." 00:33:42 Ha ha it's funny because J programs are short? 00:35:34 http://www.rfc1149.net/blog/2010/12/09/something-nice-about-every-language-i-use/ 00:35:48 Ha ha, it's the best thing the person could come up with to say about J 00:37:25 I think I should learn Ada 00:43:46 "The experienced C programmer will probably be a bit frustrated with the attention to details required by the Ada compiler. You will not have your favorite "tricks" available to fool the compiler into doing something out of the ordinary. The Ada compiler cannot be fooled." 00:50:36 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 00:52:39 Wow, some people really hate Ada 00:59:08 Dear tutorial: Do you HAVE to use a sample program with deliberately horrible style to show an example Ada program? 00:59:12 http://www.infres.enst.fr/~pautet/Ada95/chap02.htm 00:59:17 http://www.infres.enst.fr/~pautet/Ada95/e_c02_p1.ada 00:59:38 I think I should learn Ada 00:59:42 Why? 00:59:46 It's one of the worst languages ever. 01:00:11 From my understanding, it's mostly syntax issues? 01:00:27 Much more than that. 01:01:39 It does seem to have SOME supporters. Not many. 01:02:09 I got this idea that it's a good language for safety assurances 01:02:17 Sgeo: The human extinction movement has supporters, so do Republicans. 01:04:08 http://www.vhemt.org/ whnat the fuck? 01:04:33 they just want to decrease the number of people, not go exitinct 01:04:57 j-invariant, some of them do want humanity to go extinct 01:05:35 They make a distinction between those who support extinction and those who just want to see the human population decrease significantly 01:06:08 ahh 01:06:16 it's an important difference! 01:06:19 They compare humanity to cancer 01:06:28 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4369876000541116073# 01:07:52 About the difference: http://www.vhemt.org/ecology.htm#whyv 01:08:09 "Q: Why extinction? Why not just get our population down to a sustainable size? 01:08:09 VHEMT Supporters favor this goal, while Volunteers see extinction as the only sure way to avoid breeding ourselves back to today’s density." 01:10:48 doesn't really make sense to call yourself a member of Human Extinction Movement in that case :/ 01:18:35 j-invariant: VHEMT is very stupid 01:18:41 hardly worth expecting consistency of them 01:19:04 "the best solution to overpopulation is lack of population!" 01:19:40 also it would (probably) leave the planet without any sentience which is /very/ stupid 01:20:06 ineiros_: The spawn protection area is waaay too big. 01:20:07 why? 01:20:09 I remember on the news seeing some environmental cleanup program that was projected to take 99 years. 01:20:12 j-invariant: why what? 01:20:17 * Sgeo wonders what VHEMT thinks of that 01:20:39 why should earth be sentient? 01:20:39 j-invariant: why would it be bad to be without sentience, you mean? 01:21:01 yes 01:21:13 j-invariant: I hold sentience to be intrinsically valuable. 01:21:20 based on what? 01:21:31 j-invariant: It's an axiom. 01:21:39 What's ZFC based on? 01:21:40 :( 01:22:00 (At least "sentience is valuable" is a lot less likely to be inconsistent than ZFC...) 01:24:47 btw, if eta : F --> G is a natural transformation for functors F,G : C --> D. Then X : C |- etaX : FX --> GX 01:25:28 I need some 'respectfulness' condition on it like X = X' -> etaX = etaX' 01:25:51 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:26:20 j-invariant: i think i'm going to link to your file in #epigram and ask them what it looks like in epigram 2 >:) 01:26:21 * elliott troll 01:26:30 wait let me paste it 01:26:31 -!- sebbu has joined. 01:26:47 elliott, see bug report for mcmap on mc 01:29:19 Vorpal: "too much work for way too little gain" 01:29:26 i.e. something dereferences it and i can't figure out what because of glib :) 01:29:29 02:28:24 [CHAT] Woot, now it segfaults. 01:29:29 02:28:26 [CHAT] ehird left the game. 01:29:29 02:28:30 [CHAT] heh 01:29:29 02:28:48 [CHAT] ehird quality engineering 01:29:30 elliott, ^ 01:29:39 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:29:42 Vorpal: Technically it didn't segfault. 01:29:45 It just closed the map window. 01:30:06 that's the lastest http://coq.pastebin.com/cxeeG9qt 01:30:16 elliott, that statement still applies 01:30:46 j-invariant: i can't bring myself to do it, they're too nice, the epigram folk 01:33:31 elliott, why would it be trolling to ask that? 01:33:55 Vorpal: hehe... epigram is (sort of (kind of)) entirely vapourware ... more specifically they have an implementation but Epigram Itself: The User Language isn't on top of it yet 01:34:37 so you would just get a "no idea yet"? 01:34:51 Vorpal: More likely "oh, go away" 01:35:56 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 01:35:56 How simple is it to make a electronic circuit for receiving a call display information? 01:37:44 elliott: but I'm not sure how to define Component_respectful 01:38:31 j-invariant: heck if I know :D 01:38:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:38:48 :p 01:38:56 have you ever used idris? 01:39:00 no 01:39:19 hm 01:41:35 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: The end of this sentence is false, but the beginning of it is true.). 01:42:00 * elliott starts thinking about his old transaction type 01:46:42 Transaction ok? transformed? after-ok? result 01:46:42 A function -- given a world W that satisfies (ok? W), and a 01:46:42 continuation that takes a world s.t. (transformed? W), and a 01:46:42 value of type result, and returns a new world W', 01:46:42 s.t. (after-ok? W'), returns the new world W'. 01:46:43 Transaction (\_ -> True) (\w -> fileIsOpenInWorld? filename w) (\w -> fileIsClosedInWorld? filename w) File 01:46:46 really ugly though ... 01:46:51 I wonder if it reduces to some elegant thing when strippe ddown 01:46:56 *stripped down 01:47:13 (that would be the result of "openFile" given a filename) 01:47:52 (readCharFromFile, given a filename, would look something like "Transaction (\w -> fileIsOpenInWorld? filename w) (\_ -> True) (\_ -> True) Char") 01:47:56 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:48:14 (then ofc you'd have to prove that the file is open in the world at type-checking time, which could probably be done automatically in most cases) 01:49:09 seems pretty complicated 01:49:09 -!- variable has joined. 01:49:47 j-invariant: yeah it is but I think the "core" of it is pretty simple 01:50:12 that#s the important thoing 01:50:31 j-invariant: you want a certain value, and also a world which satisfies a relevant condition; to get it, you must give it a world that satisfies /its/ (the transaction's) relevant condition, and also show that the world at the end will be acceptable to it 01:50:38 for instance, opening a file without closing it is a type error in this system 01:50:43 because of the postcondition in openFile 01:50:58 it's basically just "IO result" except really-overly-typed 01:51:36 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:52:17 i wish oklopol would come back 01:53:37 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:57:55 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 01:58:25 elliott: how do you find out about VEHMT? 01:58:39 um it's pretty well-known, dunno how i heard of it 01:58:47 had not heard of it 01:59:13 Chrome's been acting up lately 01:59:19 I'm tempted to switch back to Opera 01:59:20 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 02:06:06 -!- sshc_ has joined. 02:09:32 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:11:36 -!- sshc_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:12:41 -!- sshc has joined. 02:14:09 -!- pingveno has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 02:16:52 -!- pingveno has joined. 02:18:26 -!- cheater99 has joined. 02:19:01 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:19:38 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:19:44 -!- sshc has joined. 02:25:55 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:26:15 s[99],*r=s,*d,c;main(a,b){char*v=1[d=b];for(;c=*v++%93;)for(b=c&2,b=c%7?a&&(c&17?c&1?(*r+=b-1):(r+=b-1):syscall(4-!b,b,r,1),0):v;b&&c|a**r;v=d)main(!c,&a);d=v;} 02:26:22 I wonder if this has been beaten yet. 02:26:27 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:26:34 -!- sshc has joined. 02:30:49 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:31:57 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:32:02 -!- variable has joined. 02:32:39 -!- sshc has joined. 02:35:44 -!- cheater99 has joined. 02:37:09 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:37:16 I wonder if it could be beaten by Haskell 02:38:09 probably too much looping though :-/ 02:38:14 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:38:38 -!- sshc has joined. 02:38:47 Mathnerd314: http://www.jaist.ac.jp/~hirokawa/tool/ 02:41:12 GHC is a rewriting tool? news to me :p 02:44:12 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:44:49 -!- sshc has joined. 02:47:03 Mathnerd314: http://www.jaist.ac.jp/~hirokawa/tool/ 02:47:05 what is that 02:47:14 Mathnerd314: do you know what it does, though? 02:47:57 something like "glorious glasgow haskell compiler"... 02:48:10 Mathnerd314: i mean the c progam 02:48:11 *program 02:48:42 it's obviously a brainfuck interpreter (just ask google) 02:50:41 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:50:56 -!- sshc has joined. 02:53:44 -!- cheater99 has joined. 02:56:33 Deewiant, your wonders of the world looks blown up 02:57:01 elliott, was it you? 02:57:29 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:57:37 Deewiant, HUGE hole, several exhibits broken 02:58:29 who was that /bastard/ 02:58:40 watching a binary counter count up is quite hypnotic 02:59:41 Vorpal: link? 03:01:23 Mathnerd314, on minecraft 03:02:24 * Mathnerd314 suddenly deeplinking into other people's computers 03:03:33 (not) 03:05:04 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:11:11 Can't really vandalize other's stuff on AW! 03:11:15 >.> 03:14:16 -!- cheater99 has joined. 03:16:44 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:22:20 back 03:24:43 elliott, was it you? 03:24:45 I know what I'm going to write my 7 page paper about 03:24:49 Vorpal: ? 03:24:51 Misplaced trust 03:25:16 elliott, someone blew up Deewiant's "wonders of the world" 03:25:17 Includes everything from SQL Injections and XSS attacks to social engineering 03:25:30 elliott, I suspect you or PH 03:25:33 Vorpal: o_O 03:25:46 elliott, no one else would do it 03:25:55 Blew up? With an explosion, or mining it out? 03:26:09 Vorpal: Was it the TNT room or something? 03:26:19 I can imagine people blowing that up accidentally ... but then I'm me. 03:26:27 elliott, the TNT room. but it had a huge radius 03:26:35 elliott, it more or less cut the building in half 03:26:38 across it 03:26:52 Sure it wasn't a chunk loading error? :p 03:26:52 This doesn't happen in AW =P 03:26:58 elliott, yes... 03:27:04 elliott, it had no straight edgers 03:27:06 edges 03:27:14 It was a joke. 03:27:20 right 03:27:36 elliott, whoever it was, I suggest we all help in rebuilding the other walls at least 03:27:43 and the rock below it 03:27:49 I'd help if I was in minecraft 03:27:54 I think I have some snow left. 03:27:56 And didn't have a 7 page paper to write 03:27:56 I'll come see. :/ 03:28:00 Vorpal: Do you know coordinates for teleporting? 03:28:05 err sec 03:28:11 Hmm, are there any topics in computer security that don't come down to misplaced trust? 03:28:11 elliott, armour-friendly or near? 03:28:23 Vorpal: Near. 03:28:33 -717, 928 03:28:40 Starting MC ... 03:28:41 Protecting from natural disasters I guess. Or could that be "Misplaced trust in God" >.> 03:29:00 Reflections on Trusting Trusting Trust. 03:29:03 Holy shit what is *that*. 03:29:14 (not there yet) 03:29:25 oh wheat 03:33:14 -!- cheater99 has joined. 03:35:32 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:39:01 ///goto -717 928 03:39:03 oops 03:39:04 //goto -717 928 03:40:58 * Sgeo__ laffs at elliott 03:41:07 what 03:41:25 oh, it wasn't you accidentally inputting into IRC twice 03:45:16 "oh wheat" <- awesome 03:52:16 -!- cheater99 has joined. 03:53:10 Mathnerd314: wat 03:54:00 I'm going to say "oh wheat" whenever I see something surprising 03:56:23 -!- sshc has joined. 03:56:24 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:02:31 Mathnerd314: ah. in this case it was actually wheat. 04:04:22 Is wheat useful? Do you need to eat to live in MC? 04:04:58 Yes. No. 04:05:10 (Although that will be an option in the final game.) 04:06:29 I am going to be a gibbering idiot by the end of the night 04:07:10 Sgeo__: Why. 04:07:20 7 page research paper 04:07:20 newtons second law 04:07:25 Sgeo__: OH NO A WHOLE SEVEN PAGE 04:07:25 S 04:07:32 Trying to get it done before my professor wakes up 04:07:55 Also, I didn't even start on it 04:09:51 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 04:15:46 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:15:59 what's it about? maybe you can distribute it 04:18:24 Cryptography and Computer Security 04:18:32 I think I'll talk about misplaced trust 04:18:37 Which is incredibly broad 04:19:09 in security, all trust is misplaced. 04:20:40 Can't really afford not to trust the compiler, though. The risk is somewhat small, but the lengths that would need to be gone through to migitate that risk 04:20:46 Same with hardware 04:21:14 -!- wareya has joined. 04:21:15 Unless you're Wikileaks and you foolishly accept hardware from the U.S. Gov't or something 04:22:29 Can't really afford not to trust the compiler, though. The risk is somewhat small, but the lengths that would need to be gone through to migitate that risk 04:22:38 Sgeo__: http://www.dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/ 04:22:40 Sgeo__: trusting trust has been solved. 04:23:08 the risk is somewhat large, actually; Trusting Trust was (thought to be) the only truly unbreakable hack 04:26:17 Does anyone actually do it? 04:27:16 How do you determine if something is bit-for-bit identical? 04:27:17 Sgeo__: Um, you don't do it if you don't strongly distrust your machine. 04:27:44 How do you determine if something is bit-for-bit identical? 04:27:52 Sgeo__: You could use the second, trusted compiler it mentions to write a program to do so. 04:28:43 elliott, have you read Double Computing 04:28:48 to counter trusting trust 04:28:52 Sgeo__: http://www.dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/ 04:28:54 it's Double Compiling 04:28:56 and that's what the link is 04:29:06 oh wait - you were describing that 04:29:10 Diverse Double Compiling technically 04:29:11 yeah :) 04:29:18 I don't get why its so good 04:29:30 its OBVIOUS that if you have a second trusted compiler you could defeat the attack 04:29:37 variable: no, it's not that obvious 04:29:45 but how do you gain that trust? 04:30:01 elliott, why not? 04:30:09 because it's about compiling the _compiler_ 04:30:17 variable: you can ultimately trust your own software. 04:30:34 if you're not interested in going that far, you can trust something that isn't yourself. but that is more trustworthy than your untrusted box. 04:31:31 elliott, if I have a compiler which I trust which compiles source code which I trust which is a compiler then I could use that second compiler to compile other programs without fear 04:31:32 correct? 04:31:47 variable: no. not if you don't trust the system library 04:31:55 variable: anyway, the point is that - 04:32:01 variable: the system programs are compiled with the untrusted compiler 04:32:05 you want to know: is the system compromised? 04:32:08 DDC lets you check. 04:32:21 it isn't about compiling programs you can trust, it's about /seeing whether the system is trustable/ 04:32:27 elliott, ah ok 04:32:33 that makes about 100x more sense now 04:32:41 How can a trusted compiler on an untrusted system be trusted? 04:32:49 Static-linking only, etc? 04:34:20 Sgeo__: just write everything yourself 04:34:33 Sgeo__: the only syscalls you need are "read from standard input" and "write to standard output" pretty much 04:34:51 if write("yes") gives "no" you can easily test for that :-P 04:36:55 great now i have a comma category 04:37:13 Karma karma karma karma chameleon 04:37:44 *karma 04:39:39 j-invariant: what's that one? 04:40:28 elliott: I have no idea.. 04:40:32 lol 04:41:21 you have functors A --F--> C <--G-- B and the comma category F,G is sort of like generalized commutative squares with maps being C-maps and B-maps in parallel 04:42:10 you can define natural transforms in terms of it, and also the category of cones 04:42:36 the category of cones makes sense, but thats a really simplified specific case of the comma category 04:44:22 night 04:45:45 * Sgeo__ vaguely onders if Sputnik is still in orbit 04:48:43 win 48 04:49:01 Sputnik 1 burned up on 4 January 1958, as it fell from orbit upon reentering Earth's atmosphere, after travelling about 60 million km (37 million miles) and spending 3 months in orbit.[5] 04:50:30 elliott@dinky:~/code/arthou$ make 04:50:31 gfortran hello.f95 -o hello 04:50:31 strip -s hello 04:50:31 elliott@dinky:~/code/arthou$ ./hello 04:50:31 Hello, world! 04:50:32 I wonder why the space. 04:55:42 now I've broke the 1000 line mark http://coq.pastebin.com/7tueVQYx 04:55:48 yay 04:55:51 program hello 04:55:58 write(*,"(A)") "Hello, world!" 04:55:59 end program hello 04:56:10 doesn't work ... 04:56:14 A needs length after it 04:56:31 desperately needing a better prover though 04:56:57 write(*,"('Hello, world!')") 04:56:58 that works, but ugh 04:58:00 print '(A)', 'Hello, world!' 04:58:01 tada 04:58:25 can't make it a function though 05:00:11 subroutine say(s) 05:00:11 character s*(*) 05:00:11 print '(A)', s 05:00:11 end subroutine say 05:00:11 program arthou 05:00:12 call say('Hello, world!') 05:00:14 end program arthou 05:00:16 there 05:01:27 know a good text for Knuth Bendix? 05:02:24 unfortunately not 05:05:33 good night 05:05:34 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:10:51 -!- j-invariant has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:16:04 What is the requirements for adding a language to esolang ? 05:16:50 um 05:17:01 make sure it's well-specified 05:17:08 and/or hilarious 05:17:45 quintopia, ie - can I announce a new one (derivative of brainfuck) on it or should I announce it on a personal blog first? 05:18:31 go right ahead and post it 05:18:38 add it to the language list 05:18:41 alright 05:19:02 and make sure you put it in the brainfuck derivatives category so we know not to bother reading it :P 05:19:08 quintopia, heh 05:19:42 no i'll probably read it to see if it adds anything brilliant 05:20:03 its brainfuck with one extra operator "~" which changes the value at the program counter by the amount at the stack pointer to allow for self modifying programs 05:20:05 nothing special 05:21:08 program counter... it can only self modify at ~ points? 05:21:22 stack pointer? 05:21:37 the bracket stack? 05:21:54 Sgeo__, yes 05:22:30 oh 05:22:36 you mean the data pointer 05:22:38 got it 05:22:57 it changes it to the pointed to value? or adds it? 05:23:02 adds 05:23:15 hmm 05:23:23 hrm - I just thought of a better idea 05:23:38 yeah that sounds like a silly thing to do 05:23:54 self-modifying brainfuck already does full self-modificatin 05:24:03 quintopia, it already exists? 05:24:13 * variable couldn't find it 05:24:22 well yeah...every variant of bf already exists :P 05:24:26 Hey, maybe we could do research into finite and limited self modification 05:24:49 Maybe, like the way there are classes of computational complexity, such as TC, there are classes of self-modifyingness 05:24:50 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Self-modifying_Brainfuck 05:25:26 :-} 05:26:43 Sounds difficult to write code to manipulate what you want and when 05:27:11 First step for convenience might be shifing everything over for easy..wait that would modify the source 05:27:19 Oh! In the source code, include markers 05:27:21 Sgeo__: i suspect that like TCness, it will be hard to limit it in such a way that creates an in-between class between trivial self-modification (aka, the ~ thing that only changes a command once to something else) and full on self-modification where the entire continuation can be replaced by something else 05:27:56 Well, ~ is already nicely in between the full thing and no self-mod 05:28:00 So it's a start 05:29:08 Sgeo__: it seems like it gives you no more flexibility than SMETANA's line-swapping paradigm does 05:29:21 quintopia, does it give less? 05:29:28 Because that in and of itself would be interesting IMO 05:29:29 i think it does actuually 05:29:33 but it's hard to tell 05:29:59 variable, please don't take this hard 05:30:06 because you can only change a ~ to something other than a ~ exactly once 05:30:15 whereas you can swap lines as many times as you want 05:30:24 Sgeo__, hrm ? 05:30:46 variable, the near uselessness of ~, I mean. Well, actually, it is useful as an object of study, so 05:30:53 Sgeo__, i recognized it wasn't exactly useful 05:31:06 I was using it so the user could modify the program 05:31:11 with input 05:31:20 " Well, actually, it is useful as an object of study, so" --> how so? 05:31:27 variable, we're discussing it 05:31:32 That's what I meant 05:31:46 I think it's interesting, and want to keep exploring levels of self-mod 05:31:54 I also have a 7 page paper to write :/ 05:31:59 on what topic? 05:32:10 * variable wants to get into theoretical comp sci 05:32:13 Cryptography and Computer Security 05:32:23 Sgeo__, oh right - the one you pushed off... 05:32:30 or someone here did :- 05:32:49 variable, me 05:33:08 I still have a non paper assignment in the same class 05:33:09 So 05:33:11 FUN 05:33:24 heh 05:33:31 my classes are thankfully ove 05:33:58 iei 05:36:28 i think the minimum change you need to BF to make it fully self-modifying is a ~ that appends the character under the data pointer to the program 05:38:19 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:38:33 Hmm, that raises the question of the definition of "fully" 05:39:03 In theory, old code stays forever part of the program, but you could rewrite everything and never be in the old code again 05:39:03 "the entire continuation can be replaced by something else" 05:39:10 right 05:39:56 i think that's a reasonable definition 05:40:35 a program is fully self-modifying if it can ever reach a point that it is executing only code that did not exist before it started running 05:41:23 (or rather, did not exist outside of the input /to/ the program) 05:43:09 it should also be true that the code that can be created in this way is fully as powerful as the language itself 05:43:40 quintopia, how does that tie in with halting 05:43:52 or else languages that let you add a bounded-time subset of the original code would qualify 05:44:03 e.g. added code doesn't return to the old code iff added code doesn't halt 05:44:09 (think eval()) 05:44:37 Is that less powerful than full self-mod? 05:44:57 Wait, that depends if there's a HALT instruction, doesn't it? 05:45:13 Sgeo__: if the underlying language is capable of non-halting computations, any modified code should also be capable of not halting 05:45:32 s/any// 05:46:46 i think that one could prove existence of programs for which haltingness and return-to-pre-existing code are fully separable problems 05:47:12 aka, you can show that it will not return to pre-existing code even if you can't prove it will halt 05:47:35 although, maybe not for all fully self-modifying languages 05:47:55 -!- zzo38 has joined. 05:48:35 in fact, i bet i could prove that there exist programs that one cannot prove whether or not it returns to pre-existing code 05:48:46 i'll have to think about it 05:50:51 -!- zzo38 has set topic: EGASSEMTERCESATONSISIHT | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 05:51:27 yes, it is zzo38. there is no way anyone could guess what that message says, so it must be secret. 05:52:28 quintopia: Are you sure? 05:53:10 alright i've got it. construct a program P that takes a program M and then does "GOTO 0" when it halts. Now pass it as input to a program Q that prints "RUNNING" and then appends the input code to its own code. Pass this program to your executes-preexisting-code-again decider 05:53:40 if the decider says it does, then it says M halts. if it says it doesn't then it says M does not halt 05:54:51 so... fully self-modifying as i defined it is not a decidable class. 05:55:11 alt. proof: apply rice's thm. 05:57:10 How is "pre-existing" defined? 05:57:18 zzo38: it depends on how good one is at reading. 05:57:40 1:00 I get to work 06:02:47 Sgeo__: "pre-existing"="invariant at program initialization irrespective of the input" 06:03:20 So, does self-modification without accepting input to determine the modifications not count as self-modifying? 06:03:51 i wouldn't consider it that, personally 06:03:53 yes, because you can undo it into a normal program 06:03:58 ^ 06:06:18 perhaps another way of defining it is in terms of a state machine: if it can create new states and has the potential of abandoning entirely the set of states it was initialized with 06:09:06 what about a quine that copies itself and then executes on the copy? 06:11:05 i think i have a definition that reduces it to exactly what i'm trying to get at 06:13:15 a language is SM-complete if it is possible to create a program where there comes a point in its execution such that the entire continuation is dependent ONLY upon the contents of the input string and the contents of the program itself at initialization is completely irrelevant 06:16:50 (the quine program would not be such a program ad therefore says nothing about whether its underlying language is SM-complete) 06:26:13 so... if one can write an interpreter in the language? 06:26:49 This is almost getting confusing... 06:28:15 quintopia, the contents of the program at initialization are what lets it self-modify 06:28:40 If you can have a program that doesn't use those features, then the language isn't SM-complete by your definition 06:28:55 afaict 06:29:29 Take Befunge/index.php, and make x the only legal program 06:29:34 Sgeo__: no, i said the entire /continuation/ at /some point in its execution/ is independent of the program at init 06:30:07 hmm 06:33:29 * Mathnerd314 thinks the entire concept of self-modification is a throwback to machine code and is otherwise useless 06:34:07 Mathnerd314, as useless as Brainfuck? 06:35:02 "useless" in terms of not granting one any more power 06:35:08 ha 06:35:42 we should discuss how one could use it to grant one less power 06:35:57 Oooh 06:36:22 Can you have SM-complete yet still have the option to limit ... yeah, you shuld 06:36:25 should 06:37:11 Mathnerd314: maybe self-modification grants one no more power, and the same is surely true of introspection/reflection, but both can make a lot of programs a whole lot easier to write 06:38:29 Sgeo__: i suspect we could come up with a SM-complete language that that is only primitive recursive 06:39:03 SM-code is just another form of mutation. and mutation is ugly compared to calculation. (IMO, obviously) 06:39:12 I'd need to study up on primitive recursive 06:39:38 Are there languages where the only mutation is self-modification? I think I've seen it 06:40:38 Mathnerd314: it is a whole lot easier to update an application without taking it offline if you have SM built in. 06:41:13 * Mathnerd314 is running out of battery 06:41:26 plug in! 06:41:32 Updating is mutation! It must die! 06:41:44 From now on, only write perfect code! 06:42:01 Hmm, you can update without self-mod if the application is just an interpreter 06:42:04 Sgeo__: no! use copy-on-write and then garbage-collect! 06:42:22 Sgeo__: in underload, self-mod is the only form of flow control. does that count? 06:42:43 hmm 06:42:55 There wasn't something stronger? 06:43:03 stronger? 06:43:06 No variables, just constants, modified by SM? 06:43:12 That sort of thing 06:43:16 ahm 06:43:36 hold on 06:44:01 so you mean like all input is written immediately into the program? 06:44:29 Hmm, not sure 06:44:29 and all data is stored in the program? 06:44:44 Maybe I haven't seen it before 06:44:54 Aubergine would qualify there, although it has conventional flow control (gotos) 06:45:56 (on a side note, Aubergine is one of my favorite languages on the wiki. i couldn't say why.) 06:47:59 "(This reference implementation is buggy. The "or" on line 15 should be an "and," and against all logic, the "<" on line 44 should be a "<=.")" 06:48:01 lolwat 06:48:44 yeah i wrote that 06:49:03 because i had to make those changes to the ref impl to make it work 06:49:09 Why not just fix it? 06:49:15 Oh, you don't control the interp? 06:49:18 Consider [[IINC]]. Is that relevant? Maybe if you remove the line values and make it modify the commands instead? 06:49:21 it's not my language 06:49:53 zzo38: you do it :P 06:50:29 I mean hypothetically. 06:51:35 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.12/20101026210630]). 06:54:02 I don't know if you can make a new kind of esolang out of purely self-modifying. 06:54:54 What's that language where all instructions must come from input 06:55:02 According to quintopia, it's SM-complete 06:55:07 [[Easy]] 06:55:36 Sgeo__: Is Easy the right one? 06:55:48 Yes 06:56:46 hmmm 06:56:46 Actually, that seems Forth-like 06:56:55 The whole program is interpreting the program thing 06:57:01 yeah, i'd say that's SM-complee 06:57:15 although 06:57:29 one could also argue that it is more an interpreter than a language 06:58:11 actually, there's a problem 06:58:16 quintopia, how is an interpreter that never leaves interpreter mode not as SM-complete as a program in an SM-complete language that gets completely overwritten? 06:58:23 the : command is guaranteed to always be executed again 06:58:42 and it occurs at the end of a program regardless of the input 06:58:54 so there is pre-existing code that always gets executed again 06:59:00 so it's disqualified 07:00:53 Sgeo__: it's possible that any TC language is SMC by virtue of such interpreters being possible. i'll have to think about it. 07:02:26 http://bash.org/?926695 i'm gonna play this at a party some night :P 07:22:48 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:29:29 I'm scared that if I describe what an SQL injection is, and don't provide a source, my professor will think I'm plagiarising or something. 07:31:06 do you have standards for common knowledge? 07:31:51 meh, do it anyway 07:40:34 quintopia: I recommend making sure it's not your computer 07:40:55 twiddling bits is a fantastic way to screw your system up in precise ways 07:41:03 (or use a VM) 07:43:40 coppro: i was thinking of building a system just to play on 07:43:50 can rebuild it from scratch the next day 07:47:40 who wants to play detective 07:52:30 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:53:56 Quadrescence: ? 07:55:25 Bobby Tables! 07:57:37 i love playing detective 07:57:53 ok 07:57:57 http://i.imgur.com/EUswg.jpg 07:57:57 http://i.imgur.com/d5vDN.jpg 07:57:57 http://i.imgur.com/feroG.jpg 07:57:57 http://i.imgur.com/WbMEs.jpg 07:57:58 i mean the dressing up like a gumshoe and playing cat and mouse with attractive widows part 07:58:00 figure who did it 07:58:06 i don't actually like solving mysteries 07:58:10 because it happened a little while ago 07:59:14 2 mins, I get back to work 07:59:19 Next paragraph etc 07:59:25 1min 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:05:26 Now railing about Diaspora's piece of shit security 08:06:23 Fuck you EasyBib, that is NOT an invalid URL 08:16:50 FUCK 08:16:51 FUCK YOU 08:17:17 Wait, nevermind 08:17:24 Wait, no. I'm still saying fuck you 08:17:37 Actually, I have no idea. 08:28:43 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:29:50 -!- marmar has joined. 08:29:56 ciao 08:30:21 Hi 08:30:46 !list 08:31:00 marmar, hm? 08:31:05 What are you trying to do? 08:31:33 -!- marmar has left (?). 08:37:17 -!- asiekierka has joined. 08:37:18 hello 08:37:26 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Stackmill 08:37:32 could you please look at the commands list 08:37:41 and tell me if there's a command i could replace 08:37:49 to be "duplicate topmost element on stack" 08:38:13 i was thinking division or multiplication 08:39:24 ² 08:39:44 what 08:39:49 Oh, sorry 08:39:54 Didn't look at the page 08:40:15 i think multiplication as it's far easier to implement with add/sub than division 08:40:31 duplicate topmost element on stack would save a lot of cycles for possible programmers 08:40:35 -!- aloril has joined. 08:40:42 for example to duplicate a value of 10000 08:40:47 you have to execute like... 100000 commands 08:43:07 "Seriously, cloud computing was the original motivation for the language." -- Gilad Bracha on Newspeak 08:43:20 Hmm, suddenly, I'm not so sure how much I like this language 08:43:39 Well, the language itself is fine, but can I morally support this language when that is its goal? 08:43:54 Maybe it's not really that cloud-extremist 08:43:58 I should relax 09:36:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:58:50 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:00:07 "This is exactly equivalent to an SQL injection vulnerability, except in a language other than Javascript." 10:00:10 Ok I'm tired 10:02:24 http://i.imgur.com/ST7Cg.jpg 10:02:25 http://i.imgur.com/ST7Cg.jpg 10:02:26 http://i.imgur.com/ST7Cg.jpg 10:02:28 http://i.imgur.com/ST7Cg.jpg 10:05:31 I can't tell if that's NSFW or not 10:06:18 * Sgeo__ decides that it is 10:08:49 Sgeo__ 10:08:50 it's not NSFW 10:08:55 it's Not Safe For Any Kind Of Life Or Sanity 10:09:28 asiekierka, the only thing that matches that description is death 10:13:43 Ah, BZFlag 10:14:02 Talked about BZFlag two years ago, as an example of cheating in ga... no, I didn't actually 10:14:07 Well, I'm using it now =P 10:15:36 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:19:44 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:21:49 -!- pingveno has joined. 10:23:59 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:27:18 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:31:44 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:44:50 Now talking about Trusting Trust 10:46:46 http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html this is it? 10:46:51 This is the whole thing? 10:53:18 http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/01/countering_trus.html I actually understand this 11:05:56 -!- cheater99 has joined. 11:07:54 It's so... obvious, really 11:18:30 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:38:15 -!- augur has changed nick to Agu10sInternet. 11:38:27 -!- Agu10sInternet has changed nick to augur. 11:47:34 http://www.mezzacotta.net/owls/ :D 11:49:07 * Sgeo__ dares oerjan to read every Mezzacotta strip 11:49:28 nice try 11:53:06 What am I on again? 11:53:10 Social engineering 11:57:26 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:59:33 -!- pingveno has joined. 12:18:01 "What are some similarities and differences between prank calls and attacks such as SQL injections?" 12:18:06 It's official, I'm insane. 12:19:00 * Sgeo__ clarifies "prank calls" 12:27:51 6 seemingly unrelated comp sec topics in one paper 12:27:53 Sensible! 12:37:21 -!- asiekierka has joined. 12:39:43 -!- impomatic has joined. 13:01:33 -!- cheater99 has joined. 13:19:28 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:22:57 -!- MigoMipo has quit (*.net *.split). 13:22:59 -!- variable has quit (*.net *.split). 13:23:04 -!- dbc has quit (*.net *.split). 13:27:41 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:27:41 -!- variable has joined. 13:27:41 -!- dbc has joined. 13:34:55 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:36:18 -!- pingveno has joined. 13:42:29 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 13:45:53 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 13:45:55 Heh... I'm seeing how small space one can pack the complete list of all allocated unicast IPv4 addresses... 13:46:06 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:47:49 So far, 1/8th of the address space processed, about 2328 bytes output... 13:50:06 -!- variable has joined. 13:51:30 fizzie, mcmap got desynced somehow when placing a torch high up. Garbage on map 13:52:58 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:53:23 -!- jix has joined. 13:54:54 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 13:58:10 * Sgeo__ breathes 13:58:19 I submitted everything the professor asked for 13:58:26 Let me try to do more 13:58:32 Increase my odds 14:00:21 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:05:55 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 14:06:08 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:06:53 -!- asiekierka has joined. 14:20:07 -!- cheater99 has joined. 14:21:02 The program I wrote compressed bitmap (4Gib) of all allocated/delegated IPv4 address ranges to 29376 bytes... 14:22:15 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 14:24:27 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:25:39 Ilari can you send the decompressor and the compressed file 14:30:42 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 14:30:56 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:31:18 Actually, I designed the format more for random access into compressed bitmap than to be decompressed... 14:32:08 -!- variable has joined. 14:32:12 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:32:31 * Ilari checks what xz does with the data... 14:34:20 well if you have random access, surely decompression is just a for loop over that :) 14:34:36 Ilari even if it's slow, do eet 14:35:15 Well, there are faster methods to decompress that data than loop over random access... 14:40:38 * Sgeo__ might find that data useful at some point 14:40:47 * Sgeo__ wants to ban all IPs from a certain wiki 14:40:58 Can just ban every /16 block, but that's tedious 14:41:09 I mean, of course I'd use a bot, but still 14:41:17 I feel deranged 14:42:39 patch source code? 14:43:25 I don't have that kind of control over it 14:43:36 If I did, I'd set the setting that blocks anons from editing 14:43:52 * Sgeo__ finally gets to use his Evil Wanda laugh in his FB status 14:55:49 Sgeo__, /all/ IPs? 14:55:55 wouldn't that forbid everyone 14:56:02 That would forbid anonymous users 14:56:18 I wouldn't select the option to ban logged in users with those IPs 14:56:50 Sgeo__, tried captcha? 14:57:01 Vorpal, I don't have that level of access 14:57:12 Sgeo__, can't you ask someone who /has/ that level of access? 14:57:24 I don't think any such person is active 14:57:41 It doesn't let to ban above /16 size? 14:58:08 Ilari, nope 15:01:42 And now the data even roundtrips through compressor and decompressor I wrote... 15:02:47 Am I deranged for comparing SQL injections to prank calls on The Simpsons? 15:11:00 ....CRAP 15:11:08 My presentation doesn't have a works cited 15:20:04 That's it 15:20:09 That's all the work I can do 15:20:15 I don't think there's anything else I can do 15:20:18 I need to breathe 15:21:42 -!- impomatic has left (?). 15:56:05 -!- elliott has joined. 15:56:14 elliott, hi 15:56:24 yawn 15:57:39 22:42:54 j-invariant: basically he's trying to replace MSE 15:57:39 22:43:00 TeXnicard is not written entirely in TeX. It only uses TeX for the typesetting. 15:57:39 22:43:02 knowing zzo38 it will likely not happen 15:57:39 22:43:06 but if it does, <3 15:57:47 http://twcywesit21c.tumblr.com/ 15:57:56 coppro: erm you have seen that TeXnicard is used by writing code in an underload-style language? :D 15:58:23 coppro: btw /Enhanced/ CWEB is zzo's own version of CWEB. 15:59:04 -!- ineiros_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:00:00 hi elliott 16:00:06 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Stackmill 16:00:21 23:24:05 Sgeo: oh 16:00:21 23:24:08 so you're just an idiot 16:00:30 coppro: no no you don't understand, he has a crippling fear of deadlines! 16:00:31 -!- ineiros has joined. 16:00:35 asiekierka: seen. 16:04:55 00:38:47 brainf**k can be implemented in it so it seems turing-complete 16:04:59 asiekierka: i edited the page to correct this 16:05:12 asiekierka: you have implemented a /finite-tape/ version of brainfuck which only proves it is at least a finite state machine 16:05:50 asiekierka: also see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Stackmill 16:06:38 01:21:53 http://codepad.org/R1ydyMJ8 --> does anyone see anything wrong with this implementation of brainfuck ? 16:06:52 variable: as long as "quick" doesn't mean in the sense of execution speed, in which case it's going to be very slow ... 16:07:21 01:30:18 It might give variable a wrong impression 16:07:31 sgeo i'm sorry but i don't think any impression you could give would be wrong 16:07:48 -!- elliott_ has joined. 16:07:52 -!- elliott_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:09:01 05:30:12 Vorpal 16:09:01 05:30:13 about the bug 16:09:01 05:30:21 it only happens in the best GBA emulator available, NO$GBA 16:09:01 05:30:27 it doesn't happen on the worse emulators (VisualBoyAdvance) 16:09:01 05:30:28 or the real thing 16:09:01 i think I see how BCT can be implemented 16:09:07 well erm i hate to state the obvious... 16:09:10 elliott it is the best emulator 16:09:17 i'm sorry but every NDS developer uses it 16:09:19 well 16:09:20 not developer 16:09:21 but an emulator with a bug not in the real hardware that other emulators don't have does not *sound* like the best, i'm afraid 16:09:25 but people who want to emulate the thing 16:09:43 well it is the only one which can emulate almost all commercial games properly 16:09:53 sry, don't buy it. I see "LOL NO$GBA IS SO K33WL" all the time but I've never seen any evidence for it 16:10:11 it is because it has a really good debugger 16:10:15 and 16:10:20 it can run a lot of stuff well 16:10:23 debugging is not to do with emulation 16:12:19 after checking BCT 16:12:32 elliott: i read that as that the emulator may be the only one to have this particular bug, but all the others have _more_ :D 16:12:57 i am sure it's doable 16:12:58 oerjan: possibly ... but printf("%d",99) crashing an emulator suggests to me that it might be a widdle bit of a big bug 16:13:05 0 = pop value 16:13:08 you'd think 16:13:26 1 = if value is nonzero (1), put next input value on stack and shift up 16:13:29 asiekierka: yeah i mentioned BCT because it looked to me like it would be easier 16:13:34 that's BCT in Stackmill 16:13:37 i do not have a working implementatino 16:13:40 implementation* 16:13:42 but i can prove it is possible 16:14:25 i do not give up that easily 16:14:27 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:14:32 but i will have to backport some stuff from BF algorithms 16:14:34 23:29:29 I'm scared that if I describe what an SQL injection is, and don't provide a source, my professor will think I'm plagiarising or something. 16:14:47 oh man yeah i get punished for knowing things all the time because you're not expected to know simple things like that in university! 16:14:53 i'd be careful even saying 2+2=4 personally 16:16:03 23:59:14 2 mins, I get back to work 16:16:03 23:59:19 Next paragraph etc 16:16:03 23:59:25 1min 16:16:04 23:59:59 --- log: ended esoteric/10.12.26 16:16:04 00:00:00 --- log: started esoteric/10.12.27 16:16:04 00:05:26 Now railing about Diaspora's piece of shit security 16:16:17 Sgeo__: a good less-than-five minutes of solid work i see! 16:16:32 oh wait you meant in your ... um ... i don't really want to give it the title essay 16:16:32 man 16:16:34 i am grouchy today 16:16:38 oerjan: have you got any kittens 16:16:39 elliott: at least for 1+1=2 you can cite russell/whitehead 16:16:45 nope 16:16:56 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php 16:16:57 hey look 16:17:00 a new esolang to make!! 16:17:09 Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php is going to be the BEST. ESOLANG. EVER 16:17:31 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Stackmill#Turing-completeness 16:19:22 i am grouchy today <-- no _i'm_ grouchy 16:20:49 is that kind of thing OK 16:21:01 -!- variable has joined. 16:21:05 asiekierka: you might also want BCT's top level loop and exit condition 16:22:19 and of course, that's not very explicit... 16:23:03 oerjan - check again, like this? 16:23:08 hm the exit condition might be slightly tricky. 16:23:50 oh you solved that part. 16:24:11 therefore i've shown that using the current command set it is possible to implement BCT in my language 16:24:19 oerjan: write bf interpreter in scheme plz 16:24:24 need for silly troll language 16:24:50 also 16:24:56 why the **** did i port Stackmill to the GBA 16:25:04 and ran a fibonacci program on it 16:25:17 the weakness of Stackmill is a need to run a time-consuming loop to duplicate/move a number 16:25:18 -!- atrapado has joined. 16:25:19 asiekierka: actually it's the halting that's slightly tricky, since you have to be able to do that on every 0 instruction... 16:25:43 oerjan: do the check after the command runs 16:26:21 push a check value on stack (0 - halt, 1 - no halt) 16:26:22 asiekierka: it's not the checking that's tricky, it's the actual halting... although maybe it's not that hard 16:26:32 if it'll be 0 16:26:34 the loop will terminate 16:26:37 if it's 1, it will restart 16:26:41 at the beginning of the loop 16:26:44 the check value will be popped 16:26:47 there you go 16:27:35 asiekierka: you have to do that check after each 0 command though 16:27:44 oerjan: it will do it in the loop 16:27:52 one run of the loop = one command parsed 16:27:53 if i only know how to do a "x==[constant]" check in Stackmill 16:27:55 i'd implement it 16:27:59 knew* 16:29:03 asiekierka: i see, i was thinking of a compiler BCT -> Stackmill 16:29:07 oh 16:29:19 i am thinking of an interpreter there 16:29:25 similar to your brainfuck example 16:29:30 input: the program, looped on and on 16:29:34 output: nothing 16:29:41 a compiler may very well be impossible 16:29:45 an interpreter has the disadvantage that you need to keep both the program and the data in the stack 16:29:50 no you don't 16:29:57 input: the program, looped on and on 16:30:03 you just have to send the program ad infinitum 16:30:10 real-world example: glue both ends of the program tape together 16:30:20 asiekierka: i would not consider that a proof of TC-ness 16:30:37 it's too cheating 16:30:41 well in that case it's not TC 16:30:47 thank you very much 16:31:00 unless WAAAAAIT 16:31:02 yes it is. 16:31:08 you could do this 16:31:12 [command, check][command, check] 16:31:16 [] - loop 16:31:17 these are not unsolvable problems. 16:31:19 if the check is 0 16:31:24 ALL the command/check loops will be ignored 16:31:27 up to the program halting 16:31:36 :D 16:31:43 so the compiled version looks like this 16:31:46 asiekierka: yeah but you need to do it a bit more subtly than that 16:31:51 oerjan: what 16:32:03 why 16:32:07 the solution works, is that not enough 16:32:13 asiekierka: you sometimes need to be able to go to the next command _without_ skipping it 16:32:21 if the check is 1 16:32:22 it won't skip it 16:32:32 and will have normal program flow 16:32:41 if the check is 0 (read: stack empty) 16:32:41 ...if the check is 1 how do you exit the first loop? 16:32:47 oerjan: why would you have to 16:32:52 the check is 0 when the stack is empty 16:33:07 the main loop would also exit as the last check executed would be a 0 16:33:07 _because you want to run the next command_! 16:33:33 i thought it's "after each 0 command, halt if the stack is empty" 16:33:42 yes. 16:33:46 that's what i do 16:33:55 but what does your solution do if the stack is nonempty? 16:34:00 the check will be a 1 16:34:12 oh wait 16:34:13 hmm 16:34:15 you got me there 16:34:27 oh right, hmm 16:35:15 [pop previous stack value -> command -> check -> shift up and push a 0 so it quits the loop] pop the 0 -> shift down, giving the true check value [pop -> next command... 16:35:17 here 16:35:21 this is a way to make it work 16:36:20 STACK AFTER CHECK: 16:36:25 1(data) 16:36:36 (if the check was positive) 16:36:40 STACK AFTER QUITTING THE LOOP: 16:36:42 0(data)1 16:36:46 STACK BEFORE ENTERING THE NEXT LOOP: 16:36:48 1(data) 16:37:03 STACK BEFORE RUNNING THE COMMAND: 16:37:04 (data) 16:37:17 oerjan: You Know You're a Haskeller When: you write a scheme program without realising that it needs to be initialised with an infinite stream of 0s 16:38:17 elliott: yay 16:38:31 oerjan: fix it for me >:| 16:38:44 elliott: use set-cdr! ? >:) 16:38:55 it is complex but i believe i can pull off a BCT compiler 16:39:04 or what it's called 16:39:06 it is VERY complex so i'll have to make an actual app for it 16:39:09 oerjan: ...hey that will actually work! 16:39:10 oerjan: thanks dude 16:39:24 you're welcome 16:41:03 oerjan: hmm I just realised that I basically have to put my whole "interpret" procedure in the argument to H 16:41:09 since presumably it doesn't have access to the super-Turing environment 16:44:14 asiekierka: i think there's still a problem there 16:44:18 oerjan: 1. Comments in -- style are too hard to mention cause they do not stop the eye-flow as // vertical slashes do. 2. Comments in /**/ style are too easy to enter from the right numeric keyboard, but {--} style require shift + some keys in the middle of keyboard. 16:44:18 From phisiological point of view - putting the right hand to the right for comments tells the body "i'm putting a comment", but putting {--} in some way tells the body - I still type-in the code part. 16:45:14 i'm thinking about new general purpose programming language 16:45:34 asiekierka: the "pop the 0" from the different loops accumulate 16:45:48 oerjan no 16:46:05 hmm I need Banana Scheme opinions 16:46:06 elliott: saw that in r/programming 16:46:07 the loop pops VALUE #1, does the command, pushes VALUE #1, moves it and pushes #2 16:46:15 the un-loop pops #2, moves VALUE #1 back 16:46:16 I need to use eval in this program 16:46:20 so I need to pass an environment 16:46:25 so I need to do (scheme-report-environment version) 16:46:29 For R5RS, version=5. 16:46:33 But what is it for Scheme-1? 16:46:45 (scheme-report-environment 5.1)? :p 16:46:54 (scheme-report-environment '5H)? 16:47:04 optional procedure: (interaction-environment) 16:47:04 This procedure returns a specifier for the environment that contains implementation-defined bindings, typically a superset of those listed in the report. The intent is that this procedure will return the environment in which the implementation would evaluate expressions dynamically typed by the user. 16:47:06 Or that will work! 16:47:12 asiekierka: the problem isn't what happens inside the loops, but what happens between them once you decide to skip them 16:47:53 you're popping a 0 in each gap 16:48:02 a swap instead might work 16:49:25 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:49:38 i'm stuck 16:49:41 Wait, no 16:49:48 > (run '(+)) 16:49:48 Scheme 48 heap overflow 16:49:51 hi asiekierka 16:49:51 that is not a problem as we are quitting the loop, right? 16:49:56 if we are halting 16:50:00 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 16:50:01 i do not care about what happens to the stack 16:50:09 and we're halting only when the stack is empty 16:50:19 the stack will constantly return zeros when empty 16:50:20 asiekierka: well you still might not want it to crash... 16:50:25 oerjan: It won't 16:50:30 oh in that case it should be fine 16:50:32 Yes 16:50:41 so turing-completeness is theoretically proved 16:50:44 not practically, thouh 16:50:46 though* 16:51:37 yeah but it _should_ be just a cut-and-paste compilation once you found out what each part becomes 16:51:40 Yes 16:51:47 er 16:51:53 So can I state that this is turing-complete 16:51:53 or 16:51:57 s/cut-and-paste/search-and-replace/ 16:52:00 should I make a practical one first 16:52:30 i think you should make it at least as explicit as the brainfuck version is 16:52:52 oerjan: now now, a mathematician can't demand full specification from others 16:52:54 yes 16:52:55 i will tomorrow 16:52:56 that's hypocritical! 16:52:56 gtg bye 16:52:58 asiekierka: just handwave it 16:53:00 say it's probably TC 16:53:05 -!- asiekierka has quit. 16:53:24 hehe 16:53:28 elblÄ…g 16:54:09 * oerjan swats elliott -----### 16:54:20 elliott, *prod* 16:54:23 Vorpal: what 16:54:33 oerjan: shut up, i'm sad because scheme48 heap overflows on my program, und- OH 16:54:35 OHHHHH. I SEE. 16:54:44 elliott, about when do you plan to work on that thing? 16:54:48 oerjan: thx rubber ducky 16:54:56 Vorpal: on the wonders of the world? 16:54:59 elliott, yeah 16:55:00 I'm a bit busy coding right now :p 16:55:07 forgot to turn minecraft off 16:55:17 I'll loot my stock a bit later to see what there is 16:55:31 > (run '(+)) 16:55:31 Scheme 48 heap overflow 16:55:33 WHAT HAVE I DONE TO YOU 16:55:36 elliott, just want to know when I can expect you there so we don't miss constantly miss each other with half a minute :P 16:55:48 i think i'll have breakfast first :p 16:55:52 elliott: memory leak? 16:55:55 elliott, wait what 16:56:09 elliott, when did you move to US or whatever 16:56:20 Vorpal: hey shut up, ais523 has been on us timezone before and the like :) 16:56:46 and oerjan just does it discreetly 16:56:54 oerjan: well ... 16:57:03 oerjan: I think possibly scheme48 handles cyclic lists badly 16:57:12 elliott: oops 16:57:26 oerjan: all that /should/ be happening here is it incrementing the first element of after (after = 0:after) 16:57:28 ('+ (interpret (cdr p) before (cons (+ (car after) 1) (cdr after)))) 16:57:32 and then seeing the null is list and returning 16:57:35 ((null? p) (cons before after)) 16:57:40 oh, possibly it's /printing/ it that isn'tw orking 16:57:54 nope 16:57:56 let's try mzscheme 16:58:04 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:59:03 Let's try Racket 16:59:06 * Sgeo__ gets shot 16:59:53 elliott@dinky:~/code/bwipttbip$ mzscheme -if bwipttbip.sc1 16:59:54 Welcome to MzScheme v4.2.1 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2009 PLT Scheme Inc. 16:59:54 > (run '(+)) 16:59:54 reference to undefined identifier: H 16:59:54 > (define (H x y) #t) 16:59:54 > (run '(+)) 16:59:56 grmbl 17:00:00 Sgeo__: done. 17:00:01 well. 17:00:04 technically that's slightly pre-Racket. 17:01:39 afk 17:17:46 "The air on which Haskell programmers seem to thrive reeks of foul stench of cargo cult mathematics, something in which I don’t want to be a part." -- Quadrescence, clogging up my proggit with bullshit 17:17:51 Quadrescence: gtfo of my front page 17:19:19 * oerjan didn't see that 17:19:57 oerjan: can you just ban him or something, he's a persistent troll with no interest in esolangs who just bothers everyone and also says "u" for "you" :{ 17:20:14 also that is clearly a direct attack on the secret cabal of haskellers >:) 17:20:58 no dammit 17:21:09 psht 17:21:12 also beware, i am _damn_ grumpy today 17:21:17 i'll have to find a more loyal haskeller 17:21:33 BUT YOU JUST MADE UP THAT QUOTE 17:21:56 oerjan: er what quote 17:22:31 that air and stench one 17:22:42 oerjan: no, that's on reddit right now. 17:22:49 oerjan: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/es29o/the_air_on_which_haskell_programmers_seem_to/ 17:23:08 symbo1ics.com is his stupid blog which he keeps bugging everyone in here to write a post on. 17:23:15 elliott: no you 17:23:29 elliott: yeah I've invited people to write things if they wish 17:23:35 banning me is so cliché it's happened like 4 times by now 17:23:40 but I'm done bugging people about it. I just made an open offer 17:25:30 well at least you're well on your way to becoming just as overly-dramatically acerbic as Stanislav without actually having decent opinions to back it up, i predict imminent internet fame 17:25:38 or at least proggit. what's the difference. 17:25:49 elliott: u mad 17:26:13 proggit is bad enough without your crap. 17:26:32 i didn't post it btw 17:26:38 Wait, is .. was about to ask 17:26:43 Quadrescence: also considering you just mentioned IIRC /two days ago/ that you were finally learning haskell i seriously doubt you're even /close/ to competent enough to have a decent opinion on it. 17:26:51 but let's not let that stop us. 17:26:51 elliott: what? 17:26:55 Quadrescence, do you just accept all programming related thoughts? 17:26:58 when did I mention I was learning haskell 17:27:16 oh wait bsmntbombdood said that 17:27:16 elliott: i wrote a blog post about haskell like 2 months ago 17:27:16 lawl 17:27:49 i suppose it's too much to expect you to realise that nobody likes Num, it's a historical relic 17:28:14 [18:36] mauke: I'm not talking to Haskell inter- 17:28:15 preters, I'm talking to humans over the internet. 17:28:23 except that [Num t => t] is valid with existential quantification. 17:28:26 so it's hardly a nitpick. 17:28:44 elliott: if I said "forall", maybe it would! 17:29:39 actually what am i saying "forall" 17:29:52 fuckyouall 17:30:13 You are having a heated debate over a failure in communication. 17:30:22 Ping times: 65.4ms and 1.5ms... 17:30:32 yeah for once i agree with Sgeo__ :) 17:30:55 Sgeo__: no, no we're not 17:31:00 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 17:31:12 Sgeo__: I'm having a non-heated shit-slinging over the fact that Quadrescence is a moron and just about every sentence in the post is either blatantly incorrect or stupid. 17:31:33 elliott: r u mad cuz i attacked haskell 17:31:48 elliott, I have no comment about the rest of the post, but Quadrescence and the rest of the world need to figure out how to talk to eachother 17:31:49 no, i don't even /like/ haskell all that much 17:32:03 Sgeo__: the problem is firmly Quadrescence's. 17:32:43 In breakdowns of communication, the prolem is firmly whoever things that it's the other side's fault entirely 17:32:56 Well, ok, not "firmly" 17:33:24 Sgeo__: i'm not sure you quite understand: he did not write a post about how mauke is an idiot for being a pedant, this is one minor point in a whole gigantic, shining orb of idiocy. 17:33:25 I'm going to go back to napping now 17:35:05 elliott: y u so mad 17:35:43 the only thing even vaguely "mad" is mild irritation that proggit is being clogged up with another idiotic headline. the rest is just you being a moron :) 17:36:34 some programmer found it sensible. i guess he is probs an idiot too eh 17:37:19 wait, SOME PROGRAMMER?!?! 17:37:24 holy shit, those are some credentials there 17:37:29 you bet 17:37:41 got another programmer on line three, says VB is the best language ever and anything with esoteric in the name is a tool of the devil 17:37:43 gotta agree with him 17:37:48 see you, satanic cocksuckers 17:37:49 -!- elliott has left (?). 17:38:06 he seems upset 17:38:20 -!- elliott has joined. 17:38:25 decided satanism is the thing for m 17:38:27 *e 17:38:57 wb elliott, master programmer of #esoteric 17:39:14 sorry no, i think you're forgetting: Mr. VB 17:40:21 Mr VB doesn't vent about his favorite website being clogged with nonsense, he just Continues On His Way 17:40:57 and uses VB, yep. 17:41:03 and thinks we're all going to hell. 17:41:05 nice guy. 17:41:45 that is very nice of you to elaborate on his opinions. perhaps you can tell me more about who he is because i am curious why he posted my non-sensical blog 17:41:54 -!- sshc has joined. 17:42:08 well you see he's magical. 17:46:14 so are you, master elliott 17:46:35 lord over my domain. all ~seven of us. 17:47:57 hm I wonder where Deewiant is 17:48:55 -!- sftp has joined. 17:49:01 Vorpal: do you know how to merge two LVM volumes? 17:51:22 Vorpal: doing something deewiant, probably 17:54:31 anyone want to fix my interpreter? >:) 17:54:53 elliott: where is it 17:55:04 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:55:04 on my filesystem 17:55:43 hmph wait why the fuck does that run out of heap 17:55:50 whaat 17:55:57 ohh. 17:56:07 (define (interpret p before after) 17:56:07 (eval 17:56:07 `(letrec ((interpret (lambda (p before after) ,interpret-code))) 17:56:07 (interpret ',p ',before ',after)) 17:56:07 (interaction-environment))) 17:56:17 methinks ',after might not like to be evaluated if after is infinite 17:56:33 > (eval `',zeroes (interaction-environment)) 17:56:33 [hang] 17:56:34 indeed 17:57:16 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 17:57:54 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando). 18:02:34 oerjan: can i troll you please? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php 18:02:40 oerjan: is this language Turing complete or not? ;) 18:02:53 oerjan: it can run any computation that brainfuck can, just so long as it halts 18:03:49 -!- Sgeo__ has left (?). 18:03:55 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 18:04:08 What the fuck am I doing that XChat interprets as "close this tab"? 18:04:13 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined. 18:04:21 Also, you're all addicted to /index.php 18:04:26 Also, I'm gibbering mess 18:04:52 Sgeo__: Actually, I'm just addicted to reacting to spammers that spam "Talk:foo" for ridiculous foo by creating a language named foo, so that Talk:foo cannot be reasonably protected. 18:04:54 It's freezing cold outside, I haven't had a good night's sleep for... um 18:04:54 Basically I hate the admins. 18:05:14 Also all these foo languages are basically trolls against the concept of a computational class. 18:05:47 elliott, what did you think of the disussion of SM-complete? 18:06:04 Sgeo__: To be honest I glossed over it as it didn't seem very interesting. 18:06:31 elliott: it's not TC, since you cannot emulate an arbitrary turing machine computation in it 18:06:48 oerjan: sure you can -- just so long as it halts 18:06:50 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:06:57 where "emulation" requires a halting computation for the translation, naturally 18:07:02 oerjan: you can even sort of emulate an infinite computation 18:07:10 oerjan: by running it for N steps for paramaterisable N 18:07:31 oerjan: also, you can trivially construct a program which is valid iff a given Turing machine computation halts, so it's /super-Turing/ and /sub-Turing/ at the same time 18:07:34 oerjan: confused yet? 18:08:23 02:46:46 http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html this is it? 18:08:23 02:46:51 This is the whole thing? 18:08:24 elliott: sorry, but i believe TC requires you to be able to translate a computation which you don't know whether halts or not, and give a valid program as result 18:08:30 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:08:31 hai 18:08:41 Sgeo__: Yes, that is the thing that made the most common opinion to be that computer trust was inherently limited. 18:08:49 For at least a decade. 18:09:26 oerjan: sure. but then, it is super-Turing in a way -- you can construct a program which, given an error-compliant implementation, behaves differently when given a halting turing machine program vs. a non-halting one 18:09:35 oerjan: even if one of these cases is an error -- this is edging close to Kimian quines! 18:10:36 Kim Jong-Il writes quines? 18:10:44 Sgeo__ I LOL'D 18:10:47 eek 18:11:26 Sgeo__: what 18:11:29 oh. 18:11:32 shaddap :D 18:11:33 oerjan: eek at what? 18:12:25 elliott: well your language reminds me of promise problems 18:13:10 and the issue of detecting whether something is a valid problem is a completely different task to detecting what the answer is if it is 18:13:41 oerjan: but consider this: 18:13:52 (lambda (p) ...run turing machine p, discard all output, print out "YAY!"...) 18:13:54 of course since your language has no IO the second task is actually trivial for it 18:14:05 oerjan: given a strictly-erroring implementation, you can run this program with various inputs to determine whether the given turing machine halts 18:14:46 oerjan: now imagine a simple shell script wrapper: do this. if the program halts, run it on an actual turing machine emulator. if the program does not halt, run it an infinite number of times. first telling it to execute instruction 1, then 2, etc., given the previous state 18:14:54 oerjan: now obviously the infinite loop here means the wrapper is providing a lot of the TCness 18:14:57 elliott: yes. but then you are essentially solving the first task, which means you are not _really_ making use of only legal programs in the first place 18:15:02 sure 18:15:13 but I'm saying that an error-conformant implementation is both:: 18:15:15 *both: 18:15:18 and then of course that is super-turing 18:15:24 - super-Turing (can solve halting problem for Turing machines) 18:15:31 - and sub-Turing (can't emulate all of them with valid programs) 18:15:41 and can be made TC by combining the first with a simple conditional infinite loop 18:15:54 tl;dr WTF IST DIS 18:17:37 oerjan: also consider: a non-error-conforming implementation is TC 18:17:44 oerjan: and can be implemented on a turing machine 18:17:48 (just use a bf interpreter) 18:17:58 oerjan: because non-halting programs will have their undefined behaviour be "run forever" :) 18:18:39 i am just saying, it's a promise problem and confusing the different subproblems of it will just give nonsense 18:18:52 oerjan: don't you think i'm /trying/ to give nonsense? 18:19:04 OF COURSE NOT. THAT WOULD BE _EVIL_ 18:19:18 -!- dbc has quit (*.net *.split). 18:19:23 oerjan: it is, as i said, a troll :) 18:21:26 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Chris_Pressey&diff=20610&oldid=20565 am i a bad person now 18:22:23 ...i already did a similar correction, as did cpressey 18:22:54 oh it's a user page 18:22:54 oerjan: but not on his user page :D 18:23:13 oerjan: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Chris_Pressey&diff=11261&oldid=7997 oh that's okay then 18:23:14 then yes, clearly genocidal evil madness 18:23:34 you know what's a really tempting smart-vandal target? 18:23:36 [[Template:Catseye]] :D 18:24:20 you don't say 18:25:03 oerjan: btw can you delete http://esolangs.org/wiki/Template:Catseye/inner, it's been unused for ages :trollface: 18:27:40 BUT OF COURSE 18:29:14 oerjan: well when will it be done?? 18:31:10 I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT "WILL" 18:32:29 * Mathnerd314 never figured out the difference between "could" and "would" 18:32:33 elliott, when is the ETA on that macbook air? 18:32:51 Vorpal: it's delivered via tiny particles in the air, you wait for them to spontaneously assemble to form a laptop 18:32:53 it's lighter that way 18:32:55 no packaging required 18:32:56 elliott, and more importantly: will it be beefy enough to run dwarf fortress 18:33:05 Vorpal: Maybe :P 18:33:25 the ETA are far too busy blowing up things in spain 18:33:26 Vorpal: 2.1 GHz semi-recent Core 2 Duo, 4 GiB RAM, and a decent GPU but that hardly matters for Dwarf Fortress. 18:33:28 elliott, doesn't it use text UI iirc? 18:33:48 elliott, so shouldn't you be able to get an account on bsmntbombdood's computer and play it over ssh? 18:33:49 Vorpal: Well, it renders its own UI which uses sprites that are mostly DOS codepage 437 plus some extra ones (like a dwarf glyph). 18:33:55 ah 18:33:57 There is a server for doing it over telnet/ssh, though. 18:34:04 But I doubt bsmntbombdood would do that :P 18:34:27 Vorpal: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/80/Curses-tileset.gif this is what dwarf fortress looks like; notice the bearded dwarves 18:35:04 elliott, is it CPU bound or memory bound? 18:35:33 actually, memory bound is the wrong word 18:35:45 Vorpal: http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:System_requirements http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Maximizing_framerate 18:35:45 since that would seem to refer to memory speed 18:35:54 "DF is not particularly RAM-hungry. Expect the process to allocate between 300 and 700 MB with medium regions. With 512MB you may be a bit on the short side, but 1 GB is absolutely sufficient. World Generation can eat up far more than that, but Generation will only be slower if not more RAM is available. Otherwise the influence of RAM on game speed is limited, as DF is not loading and offloading big ch 18:35:54 unks of data much." 18:36:17 elliott, 1 GB for dwarf fortress or 1 GB for the entire system I wonder 18:36:25 Vorpal: Entire system, I think. 18:36:38 Vorpal: I gather that just about anything can play Dwarf Fortress if you're okay with only seeing a handful of tiles at a time. 18:37:24 Vorpal: 18:37:25 CPU: AMD 7750x2 BE @ 2.7GHz 18:37:25 MBO: Gigabyte GA-MA78G-DS3h 18:37:25 RAM: 4GB DDR2 800 18:37:25 GPU: XFX GTX260 18:37:27 Game version: 31.08 - graphics 18:37:27 World size: Medium region (default, nonmodified) 18:37:29 Embark size: 5x5 18:37:31 Age of fort: 6 years 18:37:33 Number of dwarves: 140 18:37:35 Average fps: 6-14 18:37:46 Vorpal: Note extremely low average fps (it controls input too; apparently 5-15 fps is clumsy for text/mouse input) 18:37:47 heh 18:38:04 elliott, what makes it so CPU hungry? 18:38:29 Vorpal: It's reaaaaaaaaaally advanced. 18:38:38 Vorpal: For instance, world generation basically simulates the whole world for ages. 18:38:51 Procedural up the wazoo. 18:39:00 elliott, well... that would happen /before/ actual gameplay, no? 18:39:03 Yes. 18:39:09 Vorpal: Then after that, it's just really complex nature algorithms and everything affecting everything else, from what I gather. 18:39:20 I mean, each dwarf has its own AI (well, presumably). 18:39:23 (so while annoying to wait, it is not a major issue) 18:40:01 "Can't really give any solid recommendations, but I can share my findings between my machines. A 3.0Ghz P4 w/ 1GB of RAM ran the new version a little slower than the old. Another machine with a dualcore 2.0Ghz processor and 2GB of RAM ran it even slower. And my main machine, a quadcore @2.3Ghz with 3.25 GB of RAM ran significantly faster than the old version." 18:40:02 elliott, in most games each create has it's own AI on some level. Otherwise all copies would do the exact same actions at a given point in time. 18:40:27 Vorpal: You know why Minecraft is slow? 18:40:45 Vorpal: Imagine if Notch was a crazy perfectionist who spent less time making the game fun than making it RIDICULOUSLY COMPREHENSIVE and had a magic infinite-speed computer. 18:40:51 Vorpal: That's why DF is slow. 18:40:53 elliott, java mostly. It is slower in the beginning when stuff hasn't been jitted. 18:40:57 Er, no. 18:40:59 elliott, he 18:41:02 heh* 18:41:05 It's slow because it's handling thousands and thousands of blocks and shit at the same time. 18:41:11 OK, so Java doesn't help, but still. 18:41:15 elliott, for minecraft, yeah quite 18:41:22 It's OK in Minecraft because not that much is going on at any given time. 18:41:31 elliott, anyway, playing it locally gives lower FPS than playing SMP 18:41:37 only for desktop 18:41:47 for my laptop both give same (and lower) FPS 18:42:26 probably because my desktop has a good GPU but a somewhat dated CPU. And my laptop has a decent CPU but intel graphics 18:43:29 I'm optimistic about the Air's performance. 18:43:40 I think it'll probably be faster than my old iMac, which is good enough for me. :p 18:43:49 Also SSD. 18:44:46 Java performance... Java is quite performant, but has some rough edges that really murder performance if hit (large switch statements and virtual method calls). 18:45:10 Ilari: Switch statements being slow, who'da thunk it. 18:47:48 Apparently (at least the most common) JVM can't use jump tables to optimize switches. 18:48:33 I think you can switch on strings in java. 18:49:15 Well, yes, but even when switching on small integers it is slow. 18:49:37 yeah 18:50:11 back 18:51:33 And some array-intensive code can be slow too (because of bounds checking)... 18:52:03 now is time for... PINK FLOYD :F 18:52:19 which recording should I choose hmmm 18:53:03 -!- dbc has joined. 18:53:11 Dark Side of the Moon is always good. 18:57:07 nah 18:57:12 i mean yes 18:57:15 but not now 19:06:16 ah 19:06:18 shine on you 19:11:17 Yeah, "Wish You Were Here" is a pretty good album... 19:13:47 ineiros, skype again? 19:16:06 Ooooh. 27C3 started. 19:16:58 Vorpal: Yes. 19:17:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:23:55 fizzie, mcmap failed with 19:21:23 [DIED] protocol.c:305: Unknown packet id: 0x68 19:26:14 Phantom_Hoover: As we've said, you failed. 19:26:22 How? 19:26:50 Phantom_Hoover: rm mcmap *.o 19:26:52 Phantom_Hoover: make 19:26:55 Phantom_Hoover: _build/mcmap ... 19:26:58 You were using the old version. 19:27:21 elliott, screw it, I'm removing it and recloning./ 19:27:39 Phantom_Hoover: You just did ./mcmap. It builds into _build/mcmap. 19:27:43 ./mcmap was your old build. 19:27:44 Duh. 19:28:38 Oh, sorry for not realising you'd changed the location of the executable from some vague references mixed with wrong advice. 19:30:51 I kind of like the presentation I made 19:36:18 Sgeo__, what was it on and should I care? 19:37:06 Phantom_Hoover, the incredibly vague topic of "misplaced trust", which I used to cover SQL injections, XSS, games, trusting trust, and social engineering 19:37:26 OK, I seriously cannot see anyone else on the server. 19:40:23 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:40:40 * Phantom_Hoover guts .minecraft/bin 19:41:08 * Sgeo__ needs to put food on his stomach soon 19:41:27 Sgeo__, eat your copies of ActiveWorlds. 19:41:34 Sgeo__: So, that's like writing about "formal reasoning" for a math class, then? 19:41:53 Full of essential semimetals! 19:42:39 pikhq, hm. I don't think it's _that_ relatively broad, but close 19:42:39 Phantom_Hoover: Why do you keep dying? 19:42:44 Some packets must be being dropped... 19:42:47 Or somesuch. 19:42:55 Phantom_Hoover: You're stupid. 19:42:58 Phantom_Hoover: We can't see each other either. 19:43:01 Phantom_Hoover: It's a glitch due to teleporting. 19:43:04 Known. 19:43:07 It happens to us all the time. 19:43:12 We just don't want to reconnect because this is fun. 19:43:20 indeed 19:43:22 Did you ever discover who blew up the wonders of the world? 19:43:25 You could have told me, rather than waiting for me to complain and then being smug. 19:43:41 -!- Sgeo__ has changed nick to Sgeo. 19:43:58 Phantom_Hoover, we told you in game 19:44:02 * Sgeo shaves 19:44:15 (not literally) 19:44:16 Phantom_Hoover: We /did/ tell you. Several times. 19:44:23 Vorpal, oh, you mean when I was connecting and disconnecting constantly? 19:44:35 Phantom_Hoover, no, before that iirc 19:45:04 And I wasn't following the conversation; I assumed you couldn't see me but could see each other, and there was no evidence to the contrary. 19:46:03 Phantom_Hoover, except what we said 19:47:08 Phantom_Hoover, uninstall painterly? 19:47:09 why? 19:47:10 Phantom_Hoover: We said we couldn't. 19:47:20 Phantom_Hoover: There. Is. Nothing. You. Can. Do. It. Is. A. Problem. That. Only. We. Can. Solve. Stop. Messing. With. Things. 19:47:30 Is there a journal or book for citing Martin Pool? Is there some other algorithms? 19:47:31 Vorpal, because I gutted .minecraft before you told me. 19:47:41 elliott, notch could solve it too 19:47:44 Phantom_Hoover: WE TOLD YOU AS SOON AS YOU ENTERED. 19:47:45 elliott, please don't just assume I'm a fool. 19:47:55 Phantom_Hoover, your own fault for not reading what we said 19:48:02 otherwise we have to assume you are a fool 19:48:14 hi zzo 19:48:16 hi zzo thirty-eight 19:48:31 Erm... no, you can tell me after I notice the problem. 19:48:37 And start complaining. 19:48:39 elliott: I think it is because you kill Phantom_Hoover. Possibly, but not necessarily, by mistake (and/or indirectly). 19:49:03 zzo38 knows too much 19:49:12 Rather than saying how stupid I am after missing a single comment a long time ago when I had to reconnect anyway because of an unrelated chunk error. 19:49:29 Phantom_Hoover: We told you while you were walking around in the actual thing, post-chunk-error. 19:49:51 asiekierka: Do you like my program? 19:50:34 elliott, not at all clearly; I read it as me being invisible to you and you being invisible to me, but both of you being visible to each other. 19:50:46 Phantom_Hoover: Nope, we can both see you but nobody can see us. 19:51:05 Phantom_Hoover: BTW, I detonated a TNT in HHI headquarters. 19:51:10 Phantom_Hoover: ...but nothing got hurt. 19:51:13 This is because I am a magician. 19:51:33 Phantom_Hoover, I could post scrollback from mcmap then... 19:51:44 and you can see how wrong you are 19:51:55 Vorpal, the scrollback I've just been looking at? 19:53:35 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined. 19:54:47 Going to watch some DS9 today 19:54:50 Maybe 19:55:21 "Captive Pursuit" sounds boring 19:56:00 "The Federation ambassador from Betazed, Lwaxana Troi, visits the station, but develops an affection for Odo. 19:56:00 " 19:56:08 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:56:15 (Not "Captive Pursuit". "The Forsaken") 19:56:18 Of course she does 19:56:41 Sgeo: Why don't you watch DS78565398 yesterday, instead of watching DS9 today? 19:56:44 do we have a doctor here? 19:57:16 Bucket, irc medical advice 19:57:17 ...dammit 19:57:23 fungot, medical advice 19:57:23 Sgeo: anything else i could make the alpha key work and not really consistent with a decent product, if they didn't have methods? 19:58:01 http://irc.peeron.com/xkcd/bucket/literal_irc%20medical%20advice.txt 19:58:45 uhm 19:58:52 i think i'm allergic to something 19:59:05 nooga: Are you allergic to you? 19:59:21 we _do_ have a nutrition freak :D 19:59:28 it never happened but now sudenly i'm red and i'm shaking 19:59:32 besides that i feel good 19:59:34 elliott, reconnecting, but slow 19:59:34 nooga, call a doctor? 19:59:35 really strange 20:00:08 nooga: Yes, call a doctor. They can see you directly and since they are a doctor they might know better about this kind of things, too. 20:00:27 i will wait until it stops 20:00:29 FWIW, my dad is a doctor. I think I know what he'll say: "I refuse to give advice about someone I don't know" 20:00:37 And I think I agree 20:00:41 and if it does not want to stop, then i will call the doc 20:00:54 nooga: yeah it will stop one way or the other *cough* 20:00:55 * Vorpal prods elliott 20:01:04 oerjan: :P 20:01:17 i'm the one with skin cancer though ;f 20:01:24 ouch 20:01:31 (post) 20:02:07 which reminds me, i just yesterday saw a link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchausen_by_Internet 20:02:08 mhmhhm 20:02:21 (no accusation implied) 20:02:24 :F 20:02:29 okay, i will shut up 20:04:05 "Captive Pursuit" sounds boring 20:04:09 Sgeo: You do realise you can't skip DS9 episodes. 20:04:42 Are they less skippable than SG-1 episodes? Because I successfully avoided a boring SG-1 episode 20:05:02 I mean, I'll watch it of course 20:05:07 But just wondering 20:05:07 Sgeo: SG-1 is basically entirely non-linear. 20:05:10 You can skip every episode. 20:05:24 DS9 is heavily linear and has many important B-plots in otherwise irrelevant episodes. 20:05:49 * Sgeo wants to see more about the Dominion War dangit 20:07:09 ineiros, more skype? 20:07:23 ineiros: ASTOP TALKING TYO PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET WE ARE DOEING SEIROUS 0BUSINESPK!!!!890 20:08:04 I think it is just down 20:10:18 Well, I'll be off... 20:10:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:10:53 nooga: you still alive? 20:11:39 well that was that, then. 20:11:53 remember kids, always call the doctor in time. 20:12:10 * oerjan does not actually follow his own advice much 20:12:50 Vorpal: No more. 20:15:05 nooga: Skin cancer? The almost-harmless kind or the nasty kind? 20:15:24 -!- variable has joined. 20:24:23 Vorpal: "Seeds are dried to a moisture content of less than 6%. The seeds are then stored in freezers at -18°C or below. Because seed DNA degrades with time, the seeds need to be periodically replanted and fresh seeds collected for another round of long-term storage." 20:24:40 elliott, heh 20:27:04 -!- asiekierka has quit. 20:36:11 What is computation class of Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php language? Is it the same powerful or not, than BlooP with the REDPROGRAM command added? 20:36:43 zzo38: It's sub-Turing, but a fully compliant interpreter can be used to solve a super-Turing problem: determining whether a Turing machine halts or not. 20:36:46 Confused yet? 20:38:12 elliott: Yes I realized that. But exactly what sub-Turing class is it? And of course a proper interpreter that gives error must be super-Turing to work properly. It is confused!! 20:38:25 It is very confused indeed. 20:38:41 zzo38: It's a rather powerful sub-Turing class, I don't think it has a name. 20:38:58 For most sub-Turing classes ST, there is a program p \in TC such that halts(p) but p \not\in ST. 20:39:11 Whereas \forall p \in TC, halts(p) implies p \in ST. 20:39:12 elliott, prod 20:39:19 (Calling this one ST.) 20:39:50 System.out.print.some.more.dots.because.java.loves.dots.man("ow!") 20:40:23 elliott: Invent a name for it if it has no name 20:41:59 But do you know the computational class of BlooP+REDPROGRAM? BlooP is sub-Turing, if you add REDPROGRAM command in, it will still halt, but exactly by how much does it affect its computational class? 20:42:52 s/sub-Turing,/sub-Turing;/ 20:44:15 I do not know. 20:44:30 zzo38: What is REDPROGRAM, again? 20:44:32 Are you going to make the computational class of Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php called "Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha class"? 20:45:50 elliott: First I will define GREENPROGRAM. There is a catalog of all programs ordered by length and alphabetical order of FlooP programs. GREENPROGRAM takes the catalog program number (all numbered consecutively) and the input number. REDPROGRAM is the same but the catalog only contains programs 20:45:56 that halt for all values of their input. 20:46:32 (So if GREENPROGRAMs 1 to 99 halt and 100 doesn't but 101 halts, then REDPROGRAM #100 is the GREENPROGRAM #101.) 20:46:50 zzo38: Can you say "REDPROGRAM f(x)+3"? 20:46:53 For some function f. 20:46:54 And variable x. 20:47:41 elliott: I am assuming in this variant of BlooP, that the REDPROGRAM command takes two numbers as input, which can be specified in any way you can specify numbers, just like any other function. 20:48:03 OK. Why two numbers? 20:48:06 Shouldn't it be one? 20:48:21 (BlooP is sub-Turing, always halts; FlooP is BlooP+MU-LOOPs) 20:48:38 elliott: Two numbers, because one is the catalog program number, the other is the input to that program. 20:48:47 ah 20:49:34 Vorpal: Quick, is unionfs1, unionfs2 or aufs "better"? 20:49:42 elliott, no idea 20:49:52 Psht. 20:50:12 elliott: They're all terrible. elliottunionfs is the only choice. 20:50:27 pikhq: Why are they terrible. 20:50:41 Also, elliottunionfs would consist of me forking Gregor's cunionfs and making it usable :P 20:50:52 elliott: Because they don't have elliott's magic sauce on them! 20:51:08 That... I am not planning to put my "magic sauce" anywhere near a Kitten. 20:51:20 Wow, this Tomas M guy really hates unionfs and really loves aufs. 20:51:31 http://www.unionfs.org/ <-- Register a domain for open source research project X, use it to attack X! 20:51:40 No, I did not mean semen. 20:52:06 Do you have any idea about the computation class for BlooP+REDPROGRAM? 20:52:09 * elliott mentally notes to never use Slax. 20:52:28 pikhq: We all know what a sick, perverted furry you are now! 20:52:33 Tsk tsk tsk. 20:53:28 zzo38: i think BlooP + REDPROGRAM is superturing, no? 20:53:47 because you can determine if any program halts, by binary search 20:54:14 oerjan: are you sure? 20:54:18 oerjan: Yes it might seem so. Can you prove? Still, programs in BlooP+REDPROGRAM still always halt, and you have no access to GREENPROGRAM or BLUEPROGRAM. 20:54:23 oerjan: REDPROGRAM just runs a program 20:54:28 zzo38: you do have access to GREENPROGRAM, you can generate it 20:54:37 even a sub-turing language can enumerate all valid floop programs 20:54:51 oerjan: you can't really distinguish two different programs which output the same thing given some input 20:54:53 so you can't tell what program it ran 20:55:12 elliott: But how can you match the catalog numbers between GREENPROGRAM and REDPROGRAM, especially if you cannot call GREENPROGRAM? 20:55:25 zzo38: I am not sure. 20:55:31 elliott: oh hm 20:55:48 zzo38: er what is the _output_ of the REDPROGRAM function? 20:55:52 (I think you cannot even call BLUEPROGRAM; there is a diagonal argument saying you cannot do so.) 20:56:25 oerjan: The output of the REDPROGRAM function is a single number. (Numbers in BlooP and FlooP are natural numbers, which are unbounded.) 20:56:39 presumably, by program zzo38 means one-argument function 20:56:41 elliott: 20:56:44 pikhq: 20:56:51 elliott: You're the one going on about magic sauce near a kitten. 20:56:59 elliott: Yes, I mean a function taking one number argument and one number output. 20:57:22 pikhq: BUT WHO BROUGHT THE SUBJECT UP 20:57:29 (It is possible to encode many numbers in one number. There are multiple ways to do so.) 20:57:51 elliott: Þou hast. 20:58:00 elliott: Because they don't have elliott's magic sauce on them! 20:58:18 pikhq: Is it tomato sauce, or pesto sauce? 20:58:32 elliott: Þou art þe one wiþ þe mind in þe gutter. 20:58:45 Or taco sauce? 20:59:06 Hmm. How much more inefficient is reading/writing to a loopback device, vs. a real partition? 20:59:54 pikhq,elliott: Look that only elliott wrote "Kitten", and pikhq wrote something else (and, in addition, did not mean semen). 21:02:22 pikhq: So, stowfs is some hurd only thing right? 21:02:48 elliott: Quite. 21:02:56 pikhq: Lame. 21:03:00 elliott: Though the *concept* would be fairly easy to do elsewhere. 21:03:13 pikhq: What's the difference between stowfs and a unionfs? 21:03:31 elliott: The stowfs automagically handles the union. 21:03:38 pikhq: Uh, so does unionfs? 21:03:53 You drop a folder into /stow/ and its contents automagically becomes part of the union. 21:03:53 ok if REDPROGRAM m n is just the result of running halting program m on input n, then i don't see how to use that for anything useful 21:03:59 UnionFS doesn't do that. 21:04:30 You could probably make a userspace unionfs-alike do it in an afternoon, though. 21:05:59 pikhq: Or just use unionfs and have a daemon watching /stow/ with gamin. 21:05:59 oerjan: You would somehow have to calculate a number "m". You might do so from other known halting programs. I don't know. 21:06:13 elliott: Less elegant! 21:06:26 "unionfs also stops unioning at mount points, which is really annoying and makes it unusable for a lot of purposes. e.g. a lot of the path-translation stuff in fakeroot could be avoided (and robustness improved) if you could union-mount the fakeroot directory over / before running the fakerooted command, so the changes that `make install' or whatever did landed in the fakerooted directory, but it norma 21:06:26 lly saw the original /. But this doesn't work because of the mount-point-traversal problem." 21:06:27 -!- j-invariant has joined. 21:06:28 Hmm. 21:06:34 pikhq: Sure, but more elegant than stow. 21:06:51 Oh, by far. 21:06:56 And I don't know if quining helps at all. 21:08:34 +3 21:08:37 elliott, hm *prod 21:09:39 Vorpal: ? 21:10:22 (you found it) 21:12:33 I wawtched the ashes fora b it 21:12:35 zzo 21:12:45 I don't know the rules 21:13:16 j-invariant: What ground did they play and what scores? 21:13:26 I dont know 21:14:22 j-invariant, what game? 21:14:33 cricket 21:14:38 ah 21:15:02 j-invariant, the game that no one who isn't a fan can understand at all 21:15:18 I don't know the rules 21:16:02 (at least with football, which I'm no fan of, I dislike it even, I know that the point is to get the ball into the side of the game area that isn't guarded by your own guy. Then there are various arcane stuff like "off sides" rules or whatever) 21:16:19 (but cricket just looks random) 21:16:59 (random to the point of mornington crescent) 21:17:32 In cricket the basically idea is that the bowler bowls the ball, the batsman should then try to hit it so that the fielders do not break the wicket. If they break the wicket, the batsman is out. Otherwise, the batsmen can run back and forth earning points, and stop when you think it is not safe. 21:17:55 zzo38, see, lots more jargon than you need to describe football 21:18:11 (I didn't understand it, I got lost halfway through) 21:18:20 zzo38: that's funny because I saw all of that except the part with the guy running back and forth 21:18:28 Vorpal: That may be. 21:18:50 j-invariant: He didn't run probably because he decided it wasn't safe to run. 21:19:08 pikhq: 21:19:08 stowfs 21:19:09 ... is a special mode of unionfs. 21:19:10 --hurd wiki 21:19:11 zzo38: and also that process does not sound like it takes very long - how is the overall game so long? 21:19:40 (When you step out of behind the popping crease (the popping crease is the line on the ground you have to stand behind to be safe), the fielder can throw the ball at the wicket and break it, and then you are out.) 21:19:41 "I'm the goddamn batsman." etc. 21:20:14 lol 21:20:58 j-invariant: The reason the game is long is because you will often defend so that you can continue and hope to score runs later. Also, there are eleven players in a team, there must be two batsmen in play at all times, so the innings isn't finished until ten batsmen are out (unless you declare). 21:21:44 So basically the batsmen try to score and the fielders try to break the wicket so that the batsmen cannot score. 21:22:08 elliott, how is the glass cube going? 21:22:16 elliott, weren't you going to do it during xmas? 21:22:21 thanks zoo 21:22:23 thanks zzo38 21:22:24 Vorpal: Still xmas holidays here! 21:22:39 elliott, well yes but *during*, it won't last forever 21:22:49 j-invariant: There are other rules too, but I have described the basically the way the game works. 21:23:46 elliott, I plan to spread out and build an underwater base, so I might claim a large lake if you don't 21:23:55 elliott, it will need 128x128 too so... 21:24:13 elliott@dinky:/pkg$ ls foobar 21:24:13 elliott@dinky:/pkg$ ls -l foobar 21:24:13 total 0 21:24:13 -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 0 Dec 27 21:23 x 21:24:13 elliott@dinky:/pkg$ ls foobar 21:24:14 x 21:24:23 I think I may want to set udba=notify. If only it wasn't erroring on that ... 21:24:46 j-invariant: Did you ever notice anything in the game that I have not described? 21:24:58 (btw ls foobar/x worked before all that) 21:25:02 zzo38: well no, one thing was the filming 21:25:14 they vary the speed of time quite sharply 21:25:38 I would rather they didn't 21:26:17 j-invariant: That is just for instant replays and all of that kind of stuff so you can watch on television, it has nothing to do with the rules of the game. (If you do not like it, you might be able to go to the stadium?) 21:26:53 anyone used aufs? 21:27:41 elliott, iirc that is like the single non-bugfix patch in arch kernel 21:27:46 (I use vanilla kernel though) 21:27:54 Vorpal: doesn't answer my question :p 21:28:09 elliott, presumably every arch user not using a custom kernel then 21:28:21 unless it is a module 21:28:23 not sure 21:28:26 Vorpal: "use" 21:28:29 Vorpal: it's a filesystem. 21:28:35 yes 21:28:37 a union filesystem. 21:28:40 so no, i doubt every arch user uses it. 21:28:45 as they'd have to mount it manually 21:28:49 elliott, but if the code is loaded into the kernel then it has been used in one sense 21:28:59 ... 21:29:03 are you trying to be unhelpful? 21:29:31 elliott, yes same as you are when you do not answer which lake you plan to use. Since I'm just going to pick a large one at random then for this project 21:29:36 * Sgeo feels like a douchebag 21:29:37 maybe the one east of spawn 21:29:40 who knows 21:29:55 Said something I know I shouldn't have said, even though I only had good intentions 21:30:10 Sgeo, this is not your diary. This is IRC. 21:30:11 Vorpal: east of spawn will invoke server's wrath. 21:30:17 elliott, depends on how far 21:30:31 elliott, I was planning the one near the TNT test 21:30:41 or maybe one of the large one to the west 21:30:47 Are you rebuilding Deewiant's stuff? 21:30:56 pikhq: KITTEN WILL SHIP ONLY WITH GNUSTEP MWAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHIAHAAHAHAHAAIAIDIOJASHAJKLASDJFKG;ALD JN 21:31:05 Sgeo, that is done 21:31:11 o.O awesome 21:31:55 elliott, or I could make an artificial lake between my place and mth 21:31:59 or something 21:32:06 Vorpal: not too close. 21:32:37 elliott, well I'm not sure yet. Or I could help on the cube if you start within the next few minutes (<5 minutes) 21:33:02 Vorpal: Err, help how? 21:33:14 elliott, draining water, digging, stuff like that 21:33:16 RIP OpenSolaris -- the last System V derivative. 21:33:20 elliott, marking out edges 21:33:23 Vorpal: Link me to those possible locations again? :P 21:33:27 elliott, opensolaris died? how? 21:33:33 Vorpal: Oracle have cancelled it. 21:33:36 "OpenSolaris was just one of many Sun projects acquired by the proprietary database vendor Oracle, and although several of the others (Java, OpenOffice, and MySQL) have had their fair share of headaches and battles since the acquisition, OpenSolaris is the only one to be scrapped outright. A leaked Oracle memo announced the move in September, under which upcoming "Solaris 11" releases might be availabl 21:33:36 e through a "technology partner program," but the open source version marches straight for the grave." 21:33:47 System V is now dead, dead, dead! 21:33:56 Well. 21:34:02 elliott, have to find it 21:34:02 *RIP OpenSolaris -- the last _free_ System V derivative. 21:34:13 heheh 21:34:17 Also the first, I think. 21:34:19 So it's not that big a deal. 21:34:24 i'm experimenting with SPARC machines 21:34:26 ouch 21:35:01 elliott, http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/tmp/placement.png 21:35:06 and i've recently met a team from Wroclaw's technical university that wants to build experimental, distributed OS for SPARCs 21:35:38 and they love Plan 9 21:35:53 elliott, what about the previous version 21:35:57 elliott, that one is still available no 21:36:01 elliott, and could be forked or? 21:36:07 Vorpal: Well, presumably. I doubt it will be. 21:36:09 if it can't be forked, then it was never free 21:36:17 elliott, hm 21:36:21 Vorpal: Hmm. That overlay makes it hard to see if there's any good mountains nearby. 21:36:28 Vorpal: I need a mountain nearby for: (1) Entrance, and (2) Mining. 21:36:36 Alt 2 is out; all that's near is sand. 21:36:42 minecraft = price wall 21:36:43 elliott, you get more stuff when mining below surface 21:36:49 Vorpal: Sure, but still. 21:36:51 nooga: "Price wall"? 21:36:55 It's still pretty damn cheap. 21:37:09 cheaper than most games 21:37:19 Even the final price ($20 I think) is cheaper than most games. 21:37:24 Modern games cost like £40 here. 21:37:37 I wonder how buggy final will be 21:37:39 presumably very 21:37:46 (and then a number of bug fixes for it) 21:37:52 Adventure mode sounded fun until I read that you can't even place or remove blocks. 21:37:56 Remove blocks that you didn't place, sure. 21:38:01 But you should have to build things to get by! 21:38:07 Complete a circuit to open a door, say. 21:38:15 mhm 21:38:44 Alt 1 or Alt 3 ... hmm. 21:38:49 elliott, anyway you have to check topo map to find mountains (which you don't need) 21:38:56 Alt 1 is slightly closer to civilisation and spawn. 21:39:16 Vorpal: Alt 3 has less water around it than Alt 1, right? 21:39:29 I really want it surrounded by water. Grr. I might have to explode some land. 21:39:32 elliott, hard to tell 21:40:14 elliott, for alt 1 I reserve the right to develop the waterfall area near it. 21:40:27 Vorpal: I could explode the land in-between,t hough? 21:40:27 elliott, I think that grown a bit since then 21:40:32 That currently blocks off alt 1 from waterfall area. 21:40:36 elliott, also the mines cover much 21:40:59 elliott, as in, that has the underground dock and huge lava lake area 21:41:04 Vorpal: Tell you what. Do you know the coords of alt 1 and alt 3? 21:41:06 I'll look at both personally. 21:41:12 elliott, hm no I don't. 21:41:16 I could teleport there approx 21:41:23 (by map clicking) 21:41:34 Vorpal: That would be nice. I think it's about 10 ROUs above the ROU. 21:41:40 On that map. 21:42:07 well alt 3 I been past a few times 21:42:13 alt 1 I believe I gone past once 21:42:29 Vorpal: We both bring 256 cobbles? 21:42:40 Vorpal: 512 cobbles is enough for a 129x129 border at sea level. 21:43:19 elliott, connection rest 21:43:21 reset* 21:43:35 Vorpal: You okay bringing 256 cobbles? 21:44:04 PH: I've borrowed 256 cobbles on extended loan, hope you don't mind. Put some back in there. 21:44:07 Will return soon enough. 21:44:13 elliott, well I don't have 256 with me atm 21:44:28 Vorpal: How many, then? 21:44:43 what is this about 256 cobbles? 21:44:46 elliott, 10 21:44:52 elliott, I was on my way when you said it 21:44:56 j-invariant: minecraft :P 21:45:03 Vorpal: Can't you /home and //goto? 21:45:18 Dear PH: I've borrowed another 256. Sorry. 21:45:34 elliott, no due to lag I can't get out of /homed area (steel door) 21:45:56 elliott, you landed and parted game 21:45:59 Surely it's annoying gathering materials? 21:46:04 Vorpal: Chunk loading error. 21:46:12 Sgeo: Yes, it is. Although stone is ridiculously common so cobbles are easy. 21:46:38 I suppose if collecting stuff didn't exist, the game wouldn't be fun? 21:46:57 finite resources etc 21:48:51 Sgeo: It'd be fun. That's what Classic was. 21:48:52 But this is more fun. 21:52:10 ....why does chess boxing exist? 21:54:29 There needs to be snow in MC 21:56:04 elliott: i would pay... 5 eur for such a game 21:56:21 nooga: because why? the "bad" graphics? 21:56:25 nooga, come play in Active Worlds! 21:56:27 snow in MC? 21:56:28 no 21:56:28 Sgeo: there is snow in MC, you dolt. 21:56:32 MC is snow-free 21:56:34 coppro: "no"? 21:56:36 there's snow in it. 21:56:41 the hallowed halls shall ever remain clean 21:56:56 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:57:02 http://www.biostatistics.ca/wp-content/themes/biostatistics/images/mc-building.jpg 21:57:23 Gregor? 21:57:29 ^MC 21:57:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?). 21:57:58 I don't know why a pink tie made me think of him. If the building were wearing a hat that would be more sensible 21:58:12 elliott: no, because the autor is already too rich and he can't code 21:58:25 (unfortunately this view of the building no longer exists as they are putting a building roughly where the camera would have been) 21:58:58 I still have to know why the building is wearing a tie 21:59:12 because it's professional 21:59:18 http://www.orientation.math.uwaterloo.ca/2010/pinktie.php 22:00:09 ashes 4th test is starting now in ITV4 22:00:56 * Sgeo suddenly wants a pink tie 22:01:20 lol 22:02:29 j-invariant: Who won the toss? 22:03:01 the bit about the dean's tie isn't entirely accurate. There are a number of reproductions given out on special occasions 22:03:31 (but the right to give them out is reserved for the dean) 22:03:34 coppro: I have seen some mathNEWS stuff even though I do not live in that province. 22:03:41 zzo38: yeah, I recall 22:03:54 zzo38: I didn't know if there was a toss 22:04:06 they've garble warble fashes 22:04:30 j-invariant: There is always a toss at the beginning of each match. That is how they decide who goes first. 22:04:54 of a coin? 22:05:17 coppro, um 22:05:30 j-invariant: Yes, a coin. 22:05:47 * Sgeo assumes that coppro is just joking around or somesuch, and is not having a stroke 22:06:01 Sgeo: I'm joking 22:06:08 if you don't get the joke, I'm quite ashamed of you 22:06:37 I mostly got that it wasn't serious, but what was humorous about it? 22:08:13 Sgeo: it was nonsenes 22:08:29 But why was coppro spouting nonsense/ 22:09:02 j-invariant: Whoever wins the coin toss gets to decide who goes first (one team bats while the other team fields, and then after one innings they switch). There is some strategy involved in making this decision. 22:09:23 zzo38: how can it be strategic, everyone has to have their turn 22:10:20 j-invariant: The strategy has to do with the conditions of the ground and of the weather. 22:10:37 it was not nonsense 22:10:44 zzo38: really? 22:10:48 http://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q="garble+warble+fashes"&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 22:10:52 coppro: They've table warble farble. 22:11:10 OH 22:11:13 It's been a while 22:11:42 :/ 22:11:43 j-invariant: Yes. There is strategy in this game involving timing, ground conditions, weather, relative abilities of the players, endurance, and other things. 22:12:14 (For example, if the ball has bounced on the pitch a lot, it might make dents in the pitch.) 22:12:47 ah that would make it harder to bowl 22:12:57 Yes. 22:14:01 What-the-fucks-his-name dies in that book. And in the 5th book. And in the first book. 22:14:29 * Sgeo vaguely wonders if that's spoilery 22:14:36 zzo38: hey there are actually two batsmen, and they both run back and forth 22:15:11 j-invariant: Yes. That is correct. One is the striking side. If they run an odd number of times, they will have swapped positions. 22:15:45 zzo38: thiss is getting more complicated all the time 22:16:58 Sgeo: Slartibartfast? 22:17:05 pikhq, no 22:17:08 It does seem to get more complicated all the time, but the rules have logical sense, the rules aren't just completely random. 22:17:14 j-invariant: As Gregor said, the game of cricket is so complicated that the human mind can either understand it, or all other games. 22:17:15 Agrajag? 22:17:21 Yes 22:17:33 I had a computer called that. 22:17:44 fizzie: Did Arthur kill it in a fit of rage? 22:18:24 No, though it did have a habit of saying "CPU Fan Error - press F1 to continue" at boot-time. 22:18:31 lol elliott 22:18:49 I like how not only has Agrajag died every time to Arthur in some way, but /everything Arthur has ever eaten or caused the death of has been a reincarnation of Agrajag/ 22:18:58 elliott: The rules may be complicated, but not as much as some games. There are more complicated games. I think Quintuple Arcana is probably more complicated (in fact, so complicated that nobody has written out all the rules yet). 22:19:10 coppro, hmm, didn't remember that 22:19:36 coppro, the sperm whale? 22:20:02 Sgeo: yes 22:20:28 haha 22:20:38 so I have this throwaway email address I use sometimes 22:20:46 zzo38: Yeah, but most of those games aren't popular sports. 22:20:50 the website said it will be terminated by Dec 8; it's still there 22:20:58 pikhq: Yes. 22:21:20 the ball hit the edge of the field? 22:22:16 j-invariant: If the ball hits the boundary before anyone else catches it (or if someone catches it while it is outside the boundary), the batsman scores four points (or six points if it hasn't hit the ground yet). 22:22:36 You can score without having to run in this case. 22:22:37 I would have thought he wasn't supposed to get it rigpht outside 22:23:23 Cricket kinda is, if you happen to have allegiance to Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and of Her other Realms and Territories, Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith. 22:24:40 pikhq: Is that relevant? 22:25:10 zzo38: It's not very popular outside of Her Realms. 22:25:12 and how come cricket AND baseball exist in the same world? and football and soccer 22:25:33 basketball and volleyball 22:25:43 j-invariant: Probably because they are different games. 22:26:04 how many games are there? 22:26:08 j-invariant, next you'll say that only one of C and C++ should exist or... oh wait, there's a good argument for that 22:26:19 j-invariant: There are *many* varieties of football. It just so happens American football and association football are the two most popular. 22:26:39 coppro hates me now 22:26:54 j-invariant: Likewise, there are many bat-and-ball games, baseball and cricket being the two most popular. 22:26:56 Probably a lot. Even with card games, some people will make up some variant rules; with chess, there is FIDE chess but many people will make up variants; etc. 22:27:04 the crowd are making an ominous jeer 22:27:15 j-invariant: I can't say anything similar for basketball and volleyball, though; those are very unrelated games. 22:27:22 it's not clear whether the batsman hit the ball or not 22:27:23 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 22:27:26 volleyball is a net sport 22:27:27 About the only thing in common is the term "ball". 22:27:40 net sports overlap with racquet sports 22:27:48 rugby and american football 22:28:03 j-invariant: Yes, rugby is another football game. 22:28:27 j-invariant: That does sometimes happen. Sometimes they have a TV camera that they can record it and watch more accurately. But other than that it is the umpire's decision to make once someone appeals. 22:28:43 they even have a heat vision camera 22:28:44 -!- variable has joined. 22:29:01 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to unaffiliated. 22:29:02 There's also Australian and Canadian football. See, tons of football games. 22:29:07 -!- unaffiliated has changed nick to Sgeo. 22:29:11 Registered 22:32:24 zzo38: the batsman dived to get past the line before the ball with pushed against the wiket. It was close to within 1/30th of a second but he made it 22:33:26 j-invariant: OK. 22:33:53 I'm surprised that it is so close 22:34:22 wicket 22:35:54 Of course such a thing might happen sometimes. Like other things might happen sometimes, too. 22:36:03 tennis and badmington 22:36:30 I don't know how common it is to be that close within 1/30th of a second, but of course it is possible. 22:36:38 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:37:10 zzo38: I imagine things come closer as the skill of the players increases - so these playes must be very good 22:37:49 unless it was just random 22:38:26 j-invariant: I would imagine that is probably the case. It is a Test match, so it is the highest level first-class and they would have good players there. But it can happen just by random, too. 22:40:06 What does 4/283 mean, as a score> 22:40:19 back 22:41:02 j-invariant: It means they have scored 283 points in 4 wickets (in this sense, a "wicket" means the play before you are out (being out is also called "losing a wicket" or "fall of wicket")). 22:41:50 (It can sometimes get confusing that "wicket" means two things until you are used to it, then it isn't really any more confusing than any other words meaning two things.) 22:42:05 I see 22:46:59 does anyone happen to know if there is a meterology channel on here? 22:48:00 I don't know. 22:48:14 harm 22:49:09 -!- cheater99 has joined. 22:49:29 I would like an opinion. Should I use Martin Pool's algorithm (but in a more generalized way)? Is there a journal or book to cite in the bibliography? 22:49:43 Vorpal: down? 22:50:09 ineiros: Ping. 22:50:58 one of the players got hit by the ball and he wont get back up 22:51:22 well they cut away and now everything is back to normal 22:53:22 that must suck, playing with a sore knee 22:53:55 zzo38: is that something which orders like 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,... rather than 1,10,11,2,3,4,... ? 22:54:12 j-invariant: Yes. 22:54:38 zzo38: I don't like those but that's just because the basic algorithm is simpler, maybe some people find this easier to use or something 22:54:57 elliott, up? 22:55:26 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:55:41 Vorpal: yes 22:56:11 j-invariant: Well, I am using it to make the program versatile. You can modify the S table to adjust the sorting algorithm that my program uses. 23:04:58 What is the correct bibliography citation to use? 23:15:08 NOTE TO SELF BEEP BEEP BEEP: (-200, 1000) IS CUBE 23:18:00 Cube? 23:24:24 I think the reason I'm scared of this episode is it reminds me of VOY 23:27:29 Sgeo: Cube = 128x128x128 23:27:37 Glass walls/floor. Lit by lava 23:27:38 *lava. 23:28:05 W 23:28:06 T 23:28:07 F 23:28:08 WTF 23:28:29 minecraft bots 23:28:33 are there any? 23:28:45 This is a happy WTF, but still a WTF 23:28:47 mobs? 23:29:09 I do not deserve to get an A. 23:29:42 bots 23:30:31 Sgeo: is that for the class you forgot about? 23:30:35 Yes 23:33:55 elliott, got bus error from mcmap 23:33:56 wtf 23:34:05 Vorpal: I Blame Notch. 23:34:13 elliott, also not it fails to connect 23:34:21 Vorpal: That happens sometimes. 23:34:22 Keep tryin'. 23:34:26 I think minecraft.net is the slow. 23:38:39 bots 23:58:33 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).