< 1293062404 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, asteroids. Don't think I actually played that < 1293062416 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, isn't it like Ambrosia's Maelstrom? < 1293062419 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's that thing where you're a triangle and there are hollow rocks around you. < 1293062426 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/Asteroi1.png < 1293062432 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you spin around shooting them. < 1293062453 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, do large ones break into smaller when hit? < 1293062464 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1293062466 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, if so it is exactly like maelstrom, except with worse graphics < 1293062479 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be fair, it almost certainly predated Maelstrom by a long, long time :P < 1293062484 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1979) < 1293062485 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes quite < 1293062491 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you played the latter? < 1293062498 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maelstrom is a 1992[1] clone of Asteroids with an improved graphics and interface.[2][3] Many of Ambrosia's subsequent shareware titles followed in a similar formula. < 1293062500 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't. < 1293062510 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maelstrom_screenshot.png < 1293062516 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have used exactly two Macs in my life for more than a few seconds, I think. < 1293062530 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One was someone else's eMac I used once, the other is my iMac. < 1293062536 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although to be fair it's rapidly approaching three. < 1293062539 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :emac... what one was that now again? < 1293062551 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you know the original iMac? < 1293062553 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like that, but white. < 1293062559 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1293062577 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I do know the original imac. And it came in a snow white edition later. And flower power < 1293062609 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.extensions.in.th/post/emac/emac2.jpg < 1293062614 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was short for "education Mac". < 1293062623 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The eMac, short for education Mac, was a Macintosh desktop computer made by Apple Inc. It was originally aimed at the education market, then available as a cheaper mass market option over Apple's second generation iMac. The eMac design closely resembled first-generation iMacs. It sports a PowerPC G4 processor significantly faster than the older iMac's G3 processor, and a larger 17" flat display. < 1293062627 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293062627 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293062647 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks OS-X-ish < 1293062653 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naw. < 1293062655 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS 8, OS 9. < 1293062659 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the image it does < 1293062660 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it did last for several years under OS X, yes < 1293062662 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*yes. < 1293062665 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until 2005. < 1293062666 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1293062668 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, 2005/2006. < 1293062670 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But nobody bought it. < 1293062685 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Anyway we've ruled out MMO because MMO physics, synchronisation and servers sounds like FUN (read: pain). < 1293062696 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: So it's either going to be a deathmatch game or [insert other thing here]. < 1293062712 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I know a guy good at MMO < 1293062714 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a swede < 1293062721 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I think he went by the name notch < 1293062724 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may ask him < 1293062729 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You have a strange definition of good. < 1293062733 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, XD < 1293062739 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Also of MMO, Minecraft servers rarely have /that/ many people on them :P < 1293062754 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed. AND IT IS ALREADY BUGGY! < 1293062754 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293062761 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BZFlag! < 1293062771 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I feel kinda bad doing copyleft ... < 1293062783 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BZFlag servers have lots of people on them! < 1293062783 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, alt: it is MMO for minecraft < 1293062787 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(massive there = 10) < 1293062796 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, XD < 1293062798 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1293062801 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and lots of cheating, but I digress) < 1293062808 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and copyleft rocks! < 1293062813 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you are seeing the light < 1293062821 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: (As in, the game will be released under "sorta-copyleft": it's copyleft, except you can't distribute anything more than patches in public, basically.) < 1293062830 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because otherwise people could just post the entire source :P < 1293062848 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you're turning evil? < 1293062863 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Yes; mwahahaha, look at my fangs. < 1293062879 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So evil that I'm considering putting it on a torrent site as a potential solution for slow sales. < 1293062883 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MWAHAHAHAHA < 1293062888 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: Phantom_Hoover__ is not nearly as insane as me.) < 1293062910 0 :Phantom_Hoover__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, of the two of us, who thought of the negative mass engine? < 1293062915 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm "On July 5, 2006, an "educational configuration" of the iMac Core Duo was introduced, discontinuing and replacing the entire eMac line. The new iMac has a Combo drive rather than a SuperDrive and a smaller hard disk of 80 GB." < 1293062920 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, this sound feeble < 1293062934 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I mean, for education you want power machines < 1293062940 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Are you being serious. < 1293062941 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover__: Well, okay, you. < 1293062957 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover__: But I'm crazy enough to want to release the whole thing as free-as-in-beer and open source after sales trickle off! < 1293062973 0 :Phantom_Hoover__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pssht, Notch thought of that. < 1293062983 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TAKE THAT, CAPITALISM! I AM GOING TO BE AS NONCONFORMIST AND HIPPIE AS I CAN WHILE STILL RELYING ON THE SALE OF DATA TO MAKE A LIVING! < 1293062991 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes quite. We all have Core 2 Quad or better in most labs at university. (so there are a few old ones with p4 and CRT iirc, but they are an exception) < 1293062999 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: education != uni < 1293063001 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :education = school < 1293063007 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := budget of approx. £0 < 1293063012 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and they are only there because other computers are non-legacy) < 1293063025 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and we need parport programmers for some stuff) < 1293063028 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(like FPGAs) < 1293063031 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MIT still use Athena :P < 1293063042 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yeah but that is software. There is no excuse < 1293063048 0 :Phantom_Hoover__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, FUN FACT: as far as I can tell, the Edinburgh Council computers all have BT branding as their screensavers. < 1293063059 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover__, BT? < 1293063060 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover__: wat. < 1293063062 0 :Phantom_Hoover__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they refer to their "customers", which annoys me intensely. < 1293063062 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: British Telecom. < 1293063068 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1293063070 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover__, WAT < 1293063071 0 :Phantom_Hoover__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU ARE A COUNCIL. NOT A BUSINESS. < 1293063073 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, customers of the government. < 1293063080 0 :Phantom_Hoover__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LIVE WITH IT. < 1293063085 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't it more like the government is *our* customer? < 1293063088 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of. < 1293063096 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, really, the government is our contractor. < 1293063100 0 :infanticide!~infantici@c-98-192-175-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293063102 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We just seem to forget that every now and then. < 1293063104 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infanticide: GAK! < 1293063112 0 :infanticide!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1293063116 0 :Phantom_Hoover__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's more like "commercial metaphors can only lead to naïvety". < 1293063139 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover__: Sure. < 1293063149 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover__: But the government are definitely supposed to work for us. :p < 1293063154 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway, why athena? < 1293063161 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I mean.... there is no excuse to use that < 1293063171 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Because they invented it, and they have a LOT of machines with it. < 1293063178 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Hey, it runs gnome now. :p < 1293063183 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And is based on Ubuntu, now, I think) < 1293063185 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"og:url - The canonical, permanent URL of the page representing the entity. When you use Open Graph tags, the Like button posts a link to the og:url instead of the URL in the Like button code." < 1293063187 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF < 1293063195 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: What? < 1293063202 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't sound the least bit abusable < 1293063210 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://developers.facebook.com/docs/reference/plugins/like < 1293063212 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, wait, a second, isn't athena just a GUI toolkit? < 1293063219 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: what < 1293063221 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no < 1293063228 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh < 1293063237 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Athena is just what some people call Xaw, because Project Athena at MIT (involving DEC and IBM) created it < 1293063251 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Athena created X11, Kerberos and Zephyr. < 1293063267 0 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1293063268 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah < 1293063269 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1293063288 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: tl;dr: if MIT wants to have a bunch of semi-thin clients, they buy a bunch of expensive workstations, put Unix on them, invent X11 and Kerberos, connect them to a server, and call them thin clients. < 1293063293 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Students would have access to (for the time) high performance graphical workstations, capable of 1 million instructions per second and having 1 megabyte of RAM and a 1 megapixel display." <-- THIN CLIENT < 1293063303 0 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1293063359 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, if you need to do advanced computation then a lot of local resources might be good < 1293063367 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: They're used to run Emacs :P < 1293063389 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, see! < 1293063396 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1293063404 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eight megabytes and constantly swapping, not one! < 1293063409 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(okay, so they've been upgraded since then) < 1293063414 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://blog.spang.cc/images/clean-athena.png Athena as of a few years ago. < 1293063423 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I understand it has been upgraded to be Ubuntu-based since then and probably the visuals too. < 1293063426 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Well, when they started getting high-quality workstations was much more expensive than getting high-quality X terminals and UNIX systems. < 1293063431 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: (That's GNOME 2.8. *In 2008.*) < 1293063445 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: X terminals didn't exist because X11 didn't exist. < 1293063451 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: http://blog.spang.cc/images/clean-athena.png Athena as of a few years ago. <-- still decent < 1293063455 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: They bought high-end workstations: 1 MIPS, 1 MB RAM, 1 megapixel display. < 1293063456 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to the original < 1293063459 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ... < 1293063460 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: 2.8!!! < 1293063464 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Dear God. < 1293063466 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what version is gnome now. 2.16? < 1293063467 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The overkill. < 1293063467 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot < 1293063468 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: They /invented X/ to run on these. < 1293063470 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: 2.32. < 1293063485 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: 2.8 came out in 2004. < 1293063486 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Okay, Athena would have made sense if X terminals were easily available. < 1293063491 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: But holy God that's nuts. < 1293063495 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: *AWESOME < 1293063496 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Not nuts! < 1293063503 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, awesome for the students there < 1293063506 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Okay, yes, I was actually looking for "crazy awesome". < 1293063508 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Anyway, they all have their own copy of GNOME I think. < 1293063513 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just /some/ apps are on a server. < 1293063520 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Emacs is, for instance. < 1293063522 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. < 1293063524 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, except those at the AI lab. They had lisp machines < 1293063527 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno about Firefox. < 1293063537 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at some point at least) < 1293063543 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'm pretty sure anyone could go down to the AI Lab :P < 1293063545 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Lisp machines were falling out of vogue by the time Athena came into play. < 1293063551 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah < 1293063565 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though MIT almost certainly still had plenty at the AI lab. < 1293063569 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Athena started in 1983. < 1293063573 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So not "really". < 1293063581 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, it didn't take long for them to decline. < 1293063597 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Were they Symbolics, though? I doubt it. < 1293063602 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since Symbolics grew out of the AI Lab. < 1293063620 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably the AI Lab-built machines. < 1293063662 0 :Phantom_Hoover__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1293063710 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It amazes me that X actually has support code for widget libraries. < 1293063721 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293063728 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though it was last used over a decade ago. < 1293063818 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :widget libraries? < 1293063822 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably not gtk etc < 1293063872 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xaw and Motif. < 1293063888 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They called out to Xt. < 1293063906 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293063910 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1293063928 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: People still use Xaw. And Motif. < 1293063940 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If Vorpal moves left, will time move backwards back into day? < 1293063951 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DEEP. < 1293064086 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I NEED LANGUAGE SUGGESTIONS < 1293064168 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, Falcon Factor Haskell C C++ Java Newspeak Smalltalk Ur Python BancSTAR Brainfuck < 1293064174 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^in no particular order < 1293064177 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fail at interpreting my statement. < 1293064259 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What would JESUS put in a language??? < 1293064304 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: < 1293064305 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~$ clang -fblocks bar.c -o bar < 1293064305 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/tmp/cc-FT8NmW.o:(.rodata+0x20): undefined reference to `_NSConcreteGlobalBlock' < 1293064307 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: :( < 1293064360 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: You never told me blocks don't work as regular function pointers :| < 1293064370 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Jesus would put salvation into a language, and everyone else would turn it into C++. < 1293064372 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, something that prevents debuggers and statements used in a debugging context from working properly. You need faith that the program will work properly. < 1293064476 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Clang doesn't yet provide an easy way to use blocks on platforms that don't have built-in operating system support (e.g., SnowLeopard)." < 1293064480 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Can I see your copying code? < 1293064503 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That line is bullshit. < 1293064513 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: http://compiler-rt.llvm.org/ You just need that library installed. < 1293064520 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Right. Apparently it's not so mature though. < 1293064527 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(They linked to that in the same comment.) < 1293064573 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: But srsly, you can't use blocks as function pointers. < 1293064575 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. useless to me < 1293064579 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No? < 1293064595 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/eFJC There's a self-contained example. < 1293064613 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pikhq: But srsly, you can't use blocks as function pointers. < 1293064614 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this true? < 1293064621 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Yeah, it is. < 1293064646 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://sprunge.us/eFJC There's a self-contained example. < 1293064651 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any way to avoid being explicit with the closure? < 1293064658 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's kind of a pain as a compiler-writer. < 1293064658 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1293064685 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the name of the compiler-rt lib? < 1293064700 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's librt but it's not that. < 1293064831 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Are you suuure I can't avoid explicit closing? < 1293064859 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293064891 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: If you can avoid ever popping the function off the stack, you can use GCC's automatic closing. < 1293064900 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293064916 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Hmm. Well, can I just list all the variables mentioned in the function body and that would be sufficient? < 1293064932 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Also: How do you avoid invoking gcc's automatic closing in that code? < 1293064937 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should C have a allocprintf command? < 1293064952 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: To do what? < 1293064963 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What do *you* think? < 1293064970 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I have no idea. < 1293064980 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I do not ever use any variable from the enclosing scope. < 1293064987 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, how difficult would it be to port MegaZeux to Flash? < 1293064992 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You cannot guess what I meant? < 1293064994 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Heh. < 1293064996 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: No. < 1293065009 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293065009 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: I don't know. But I suggest you don't port MegaZeux to Flash. < 1293065036 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1293065037 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you compile C programs with SDL into Flash? If so, then it is easy. But I don't think you can do that. < 1293065048 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you can compile C to Flash. < 1293065052 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A guy ported Doom to Flash that way. < 1293065107 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Why do you want it in Flash anyways? It is much better native (it will both be faster and will not require a Flash player). < 1293065134 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So more people will play MegaZeux games! < 1293065171 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: MegaZeux will compile on most operating systems, including Nintendo DS. < 1293065222 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's impossible to get lazy people to go through that effort to play what feels like a flash game < 1293065224 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But if you can find a way to compile C programs with SDL into Flash, you can try compiling mzxrun only into Flash, although I still don't like it.) < 1293065463 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Mainstream MegaZeux executables are available for most common operating systems. For my version, executable is available only on Windows to download, but it works on other operating systems too. If anyone wants to contribute executables of my MegaZeux in other operating system, I might post a link to those ones too. < 1293065513 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What I meant by "allocprintf" is one that is like < 1293065535 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sprintf" but it automatically allocates it too. < 1293065563 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: allocsprintf would be a better name. GLib has that, by the way. < 1293065590 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I didn't know that before. < 1293065597 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: http://library.gnome.org/devel/glib/stable/glib-String-Utility-Functions.html#g-strdup-printf < 1293065638 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's for GNOME isn't it? < 1293065664 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: No. < 1293065669 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: GLib is portable. < 1293065685 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: And works in programs with any type of interface; it does not depend on any interface library. < 1293065699 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, either way, I am writing the program without such functions because it doesn't have it, I was just mentioning something that I might find useful. It is not absolutely necessary. < 1293065751 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Glib just happens to be heavily used by Gnome; it's a fairly generic "throw everything in that should've been part of the C library" sort of thing, though. < 1293065769 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it also has that revolting object system. < 1293065832 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but you don't have to link that in. :p < 1293065905 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Have you played my MegaZeux game yet, though? (It is recommended you download my copy of both the world file and the MegaZeux program, but you don't have to (for Part I).) < 1293065939 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what's horrible about it? < 1293065956 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, besides trying to use it in its native language? < 1293065971 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293065997 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I know is that when I need a object system in a C program, I will write one that is suited for that specific program that I am writing. < 1293066024 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, that's because you're zzo38 >.> < 1293066088 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GLib is pretty awful in reality :P < 1293066089 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293066107 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, to use from C, or even from a language like Vala/Genie? < 1293066118 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GLib is just awful full stop. < 1293066123 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it has some useful functions. < 1293066168 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have written more of TeXnicard already. Including pattern matching. < 1293066228 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: srsly though, I don't think Debian has a compiler-rt package. < 1293066242 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: What is a compiler-rt package? < 1293066253 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A thing for LLVM. < 1293066338 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1293066342 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :libblocksruntime-dev < 1293066345 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :split out by stupid debian < 1293066364 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Are you sure there's no way to cast a block to a function pointer? < 1293066446 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a idea of esolang that nearly everything must be done by solving a halting problem. What is the minimum number of other things needed? < 1293066617 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :None that I know of. < 1293066778 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Bleh, I can't figure this out at all... < 1293066922 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1293066981 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Why is parsing such a pain. < 1293067021 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293067169 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293067339 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1293067443 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1293067462 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Maybe I should just write the compiler in Haskell. < 1293067482 0 :infanticide!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1293068047 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT NESTED COMMENTS < 1293068073 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293068105 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1293068163 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293068212 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-167-149.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293068842 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :109.8lbs < 1293068855 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's considering I didn't eat much today < 1293068861 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll be ok on Feb 10th < 1293069091 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293069142 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: HOW SHOULD I PARSE < 1293069240 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293069602 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1293069634 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ping < 1293069862 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNIP < 1293069918 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: HOW DO I PARSE < 1293069933 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using GNIP. < 1293069977 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ;_; < 1293069981 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Even Parsec is a bit of a bitch. < 1293070199 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293070277 0 :wareya_!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293070346 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293070474 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1293070784 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You should make a parser library. < 1293071313 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293071471 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293071887 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: seen "Yacc is dead"? < 1293071903 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: yep. and every response to it. and the author's re-response. < 1293071912 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doesn't really help my current situation :) < 1293072129 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes back to debugging his language < 1293072242 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: what lang? < 1293072296 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my lang. a pre-pre-pre-release version of what will eventually rule the earth < 1293072308 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: brief overview? and no, /my/ lang will rule the earth. < 1293072364 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chrome's been acting up again lately < 1293072375 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm almost tempted to switch back to Opera < 1293072410 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it has message passing, and pattern matching, and multiple dispatch, and... the rest is part of the front-end I have to implement < 1293072418 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: strongly typed? < 1293072429 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dynamically typed < 1293072455 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293072456 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: worthless < 1293072462 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: is it purely functional or impure? < 1293072485 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the type system is part of the front-end < 1293072490 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :purely functional < 1293072501 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: hmm. maybe not entirely worthless then < 1293072514 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: message passing/multiple dispatch have a lot of overlap -- why not just pick one? < 1293072549 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has both; they're implemented in the same lines of code < 1293072549 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293072559 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: that's not a reason < 1293072578 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :careful, thought-out design taking into account what to exclude as well as what to include > "it didn't take many lines of code so I threw it in" < 1293072579 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm... because I like power, and this is more powerful? < 1293072595 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so far every time you've used the word power it's been to justify a bad idea ... but very well. < 1293072629 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, it doesn't *really* have pattern-matching < 1293072637 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't even object to pattern matching < 1293072685 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's why it doesn't have it. because it has no data structures. < 1293072688 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it "more power" to drop the strong typing from Haskell? More power in that case -> suck < 1293072710 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: it has no type system yet. OK? < 1293072730 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314, I was commenting on the idea of "power", not your language speciically < 1293072730 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: if it has no data structures, what do you send messages to? < 1293072734 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically < 1293072734 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: how do you decide what dispatch to use? < 1293072765 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: environments < 1293072770 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: go on. < 1293072806 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an environment takes some code and evaluates it. I have an environment which can construct other environments < 1293072869 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which dispatches to them < 1293072870 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still think that having both message passing /and/ multiple dispatch is a design flaw. or at least an indicator of badly-thought-out design. < 1293072921 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: wait, how do lambda expressions in C++0x compare, for compiling to? < 1293073348 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to go watch a video on Ur < 1293073353 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll warm up to it < 1293073365 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: You won't unless you have a decent grasp of dependent types. < 1293073380 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: In which a company announces that their BSD-licensed fork of the BSD-licensed LimeChat, which they do not name or link to in the press release, will be sold in the Mac App Store for $9. http://www.codeux.com/textual/future.php < 1293073413 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18min < 1293073419 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: New item on my TODO list: Offer free builds, encourage people to link to it with "Textual" as the link text for googlebombing. < 1293073419 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have that kind of time :( < 1293073426 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: No, you can spend it on IRC instead. < 1293073430 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course you have 18min. < 1293073452 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, if I start thinking it's ok to watch lengthy videos when I should be working, I'm screwed < 1293073499 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293073612 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293073879 0 :wareya_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :wareya < 1293074014 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.khanacademy.org/ good way to learn some more advanced math? < 1293074128 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um i don't really see anything there i would consider very advanced < 1293074147 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :khanacademy seems to be universally popular though. < 1293074290 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DEAR FLASH: FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU < 1293074315 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes, when playing YouTube videos, the audio will keep going and the video will stop < 1293074337 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I blame Windows. < 1293074411 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I see stuff about linear algebra < 1293074427 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: and? < 1293074437 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's stuff I don't know < 1293074444 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't mean it's advanced stuff. < 1293074579 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293074721 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293075176 0 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1293075308 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan < 1293075315 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ho < 1293075404 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the ho what? < 1293075415 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Udage&diff=20547&oldid=20545 <-- i totally schooled that cpressey dude < 1293075427 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ho de hi < 1293075467 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, and some classic Graue rage: < 1293075469 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[I reverted your purge of Talk:Udage because that isn't the way wikis work. You do not own that page, nor do you own the Udage article. Do not delete valid information from this site again. --Graue 19:16, 10 Oct 2005 (GMT)]] < 1293075653 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, if I try to pretend PSOX never existed, and try to remove all traces of it ever existing, I'll be yelled at? < 1293075693 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293075754 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293075770 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: sheesh, obviously you'll be yelled at regardless < 1293075789 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_maybe_ a bit more in that case < 1293075907 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic thing to understand, Sgeo_, is that people like yelling at you < 1293076181 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :precisely! < 1293076203 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know you all secretly love me < 1293076208 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: NOW DO YOUR HOMEWORK < 1293076315 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you should ban Sgeo_. < 1293076329 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't help. < 1293076365 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also with my own procrastination that would be bad karma. < 1293076491 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no, i just want you to ban him to make him go away < 1293076688 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293076821 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293077761 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293077854 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293078006 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_number#Formal_definition computable dedekind cuts -- awesome! < 1293078169 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Last 30 days allocation lists for APNIC, 16x/14, 6x/13, 4x/12. That's about 11Mi addresses (plus then there are the <250k allocations...) < 1293078219 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.amazon.com/Wishing-Well-Making-Your-Every/dp/078686561X . This book. This horrible, evil book < 1293078306 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also intersting to look at raw allocation counts for 250k+ allocations: 5 for RIPE, 1 for ARIN, 1 for LACNIC, 2 for AfriNIC and 26(!) for APNIC. < 1293078393 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runner-up in large allocations: RIPE with 5.25Mi. That's not even half of APNIC. < 1293078582 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a kid, I had a bad reaction to the woowoo in that book < 1293078618 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people find comfort in that sort of BS. I found abject fear that haunts me to this day < 1293078756 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 forms of the final boss remaining. < 1293078782 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Allocations this month: ARIN: 1 693 696. AfriNIC: 384 000. LACNIC: 1 095 936, RIPE: 3 953 920, APNIC: 12 063 232. Yes, APNIC allocated way more addresses than all the other RIRs COMBINED. < 1293078813 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293078872 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: You're fucking crazy. < 1293078909 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the claims of that book have had such a profound negative influence on me < 1293078935 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Did I mention that you're fucking crazy? < 1293078954 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, are you unaware of how easily kids can be affected by this sort of stuff? < 1293078967 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: No, no, I'm not quite sure you *understand*: you're fucking crazy. < 1293079007 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293079043 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 forms remaining... < 1293079051 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, YouTube it all < 1293079075 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Are you doing it with just the infinity-plus-one and mandatory bosses? < 1293079077 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If not: wtf i hate you < 1293079136 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's different woowoo I believed as a kid, that wasn't so traumatic < 1293079151 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm finishing my first playthrough dammit. < 1293079158 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ur lame < 1293079162 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the final boss is still a pain with the infinity-plus-one. < 1293079170 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, did you just call Ur lame/ < 1293079173 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You see, it has 12 forms. You have to kill each one. < 1293079176 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: shut up < 1293079207 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each one is a difficult boss in and of itself. < 1293079259 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: lawl < 1293079285 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except I one-shot each one. < 1293079297 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just need to have enough full-SP-heal items to get through. < 1293079301 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I do. < 1293079318 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find no fear in the idea of an afterlife, only comfort. In the idea of being able to control reality with your mind, I find the most horrible painful fear. < 1293079327 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FINISHED. < 1293079504 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SATAN DEFEATS ALL < 1293079546 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Good ending. < 1293079568 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes, I used Satan to defeat the end of the world. < 1293079572 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: You can do that, it happens by sending a few signals down to effectors which effect changes in the world around them. < 1293079602 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it would be better if it were an unwilling Anti-Christ < 1293079639 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I could've used Odin instead; would that have made you feel better? < 1293079677 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No. < 1293079684 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Messiah? < 1293079685 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Why aren't you in abject terror? < 1293079688 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: NO. SATAN < 1293079696 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, then. Satan it was. < 1293079704 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION rocks the devil horns < 1293079714 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the only real way for my mind to affect reality is limited < 1293079738 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My OCDish thoughts of people dying aren't going to kill them < 1293079742 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not very limited if you're an atom. < 1293079745 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, what. < 1293079749 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the fuck has OCD got to do with that what < 1293079773 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought OCD has to do with more severe unwanted thoughts than normal < 1293079788 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you have any idea what OCD is, shut up < 1293079812 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm pretty sure there is a name for what I just described. I don't think I have it, but < 1293079844 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Um, thinking things you don't want to? < 1293079848 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a name for that: existing. < 1293079857 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, but more severely and painfully than normal < 1293079859 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: OCD implies obsessive compulsions. And that it's a disorder. < 1293079863 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Umm... painfully? < 1293079868 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Just checking -- are we talking physical pain here < 1293079911 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I don't know, ask the person I was talking to < 1293079919 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRL < 1293079935 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: YOU JUST TALKED ABOUT "[THAT]LY" THOUGHTS, IF THEY DON'T EVEN CORRELATE WITH YOUR ONE-LINE DESCRIPTION THEN YOUR STATEMENT WAS BEYOND MEANINGLESS >_< < 1293079953 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293080078 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you know what sort of thoughts I'm talking about, you said they were a part of existing < 1293080095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's call it QRD. For the sake of argument. < 1293080104 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your thoughts did not involve the mentioned pain, how can you even say they are QRDly? < 1293080136 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the other attribute of being unwanted is still there < 1293080136 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293080470 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: So let's say that a giraffe is an animal with spots and a long neck. < 1293080482 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Therefore jaguars are giraffey. < 1293080506 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, maybe I shouldn't have said OCDish, or maybe my understanding is wrong < 1293080509 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or inaccurate < 1293080856 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa myndzi is pronounced mind-zy < 1293080859 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1293080861 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:19:02 ironic seeing as how i use a y in my nick for a long i sound < 1293080871 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, in large allocations, APNIC allocated almost 3 times more allocations than rest of the world combined... < 1293080895 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(last 30 days) < 1293080898 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1293080901 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: "mind's eye" hth < 1293080903 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: so how long until the end now < 1293080905 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: WHOA < 1293080907 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: omg. < 1293080909 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wow. < 1293080915 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i thought it was just... "min-dzi" < 1293080917 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :min[imum] dzi < 1293080923 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like mindy but with more z < 1293080924 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa. < 1293080926 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have blown my mind < 1293080927 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how < 1293080927 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even < 1293080928 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1293080941 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IANA depletion in this or next month, APNIC depletion sometime in next year... < 1293080946 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: mind you i don't have real confirmation of this theory < 1293080954 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ;_; < 1293080956 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my lasdmklrt < 1293081095 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293081155 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those who model RIR depletions are starting to have their doubts to their models... < 1293081255 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, hm? < 1293081255 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293081320 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to see example, look at the latest note to the IPv4 Address Report. < 1293081427 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah: "[...]which, by the way, currently predicts that IANA will hand out its last IPv4 address blocks on 10 June 2011[...]". That was September this year. Now the prediction is February (and probably too optimistic)... < 1293081499 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The main problem with predicting exhaustions: Badly behaved distributions and changes to distribution parameters... < 1293081542 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll take door number e! < 1293081546 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still going! < 1293081563 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's optional post-game content! < 1293081728 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1671 < 1293081883 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The spread between highest and lowest daily allocation rates (for days with allocations) is more than factor of 1000. < 1293082017 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1293082154 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1293082156 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:31:46 I borrowed it without intent to return. < 1293082157 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:31:52 Phantom_Hoover, that's nasty < 1293082161 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1293082231 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293082439 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293082678 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been an hour since I beat the final boss and I'm still playing the game. < 1293082688 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not merely seeing cutscenes, oh no. Still playing. < 1293082689 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God. < 1293082778 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1293082779 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:33:49 actually damn, everything can be mass-nouned < 1293082781 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:33:59 "we don't have enough mousepad yet" < 1293082784 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1293082799 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what elliot is doing < 1293082821 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1293082824 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:59:39 C is an awesome language < 1293082825 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:01:03 it's like nuclear lego < 1293082830 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1293082969 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Going crazy. Got it. < 1293083004 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION picks up a dropped t and stabs pikhq with it < 1293083123 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I was talking to elliot, not elliott, of course. < 1293083167 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TOO BAD YOU DIDN'T SAY THAT BEFORE I FATALLY STABBED YOU < 1293083204 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaand the game is finally freaking over. < 1293083401 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293083548 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293083727 0 :Sasha2!~WHAT@75-174-222-45.phnx.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293083727 0 :Sasha!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293083821 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1293083924 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293084513 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293084649 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293085146 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1293085619 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293085692 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293086673 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293086934 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293087701 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293087874 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293088036 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293088233 0 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1293088532 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Aug10 < 1293088603 0 :Aug10!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1293089014 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293089048 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293089127 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! < 1293089133 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When the chips are down, well, the buffalo is empty < 1293089315 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293089635 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: No brain, no headache. < 1293090274 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293090494 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293091199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1293091200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1293091446 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293091580 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293092314 0 :roper!~rodrigo@193.144.79.241 JOIN :#esoteric < 1293092375 0 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1293092554 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293092761 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293093211 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293093724 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293093893 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293094184 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Lagerholm estimate jumed to "Today's IANA depletion date estimate: 2011-01-16". < 1293094274 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What threw: It: 2Mi allocations to AU from APNIC. < 1293094472 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.66 blocks in RIR pool... < 1293094772 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293094894 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293094985 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293095125 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About 11M addresses left until APNIC gets another blocks, triggering X-day immediately. < 1293095762 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1293095914 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293096192 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293096801 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, tell me when civilisation is about to ennd. < 1293096803 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*end < 1293096809 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to have popcorn handy. < 1293096857 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, insufficient data to estimate that. :-/ < 1293097054 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293097176 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293097972 0 :wareya_!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293097974 0 :nefasto!~nefasto@ppp-66-182.98-62.inwind.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1293098134 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293098140 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1293098331 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293099133 0 :nefasto!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: http://irc2go.com/ < 1293099299 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293099426 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293100355 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293100522 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293101467 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293101621 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293102575 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293102783 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293103747 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293103984 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293104915 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293105024 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 20:59:39 C is an awesome language < 1293105024 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 21:01:03 it's like nuclear lego < 1293105024 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293105043 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only problem with that analogy is that C is way less modular < 1293105081 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so, it is like lego, except when it comes to one of the key defining properties of lego) < 1293105123 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey was on? < 1293105158 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, at some point I presume < 1293105320 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:24:08 --- join: zzo38 (~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com) joined #esoteric < 1293105320 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:25:27 Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! < 1293105352 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be baffled if anyone else did it, but zzo has desensitised me to his weirdness. < 1293106073 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293106382 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, why is stunnel trying to create localhost-only AF_INET port and then trying to connect to it? < 1293106607 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, what is stunnel for now again? < 1293106634 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Similar to inetd, but listens for TLS connections instead of plaintext. < 1293106660 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1293106669 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"trying" because it doesn't work and as result, stuff keeps failing... < 1293106675 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, must be config issues < 1293106677 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or bugs < 1293106694 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think that exhausted all possibilities :P) < 1293106921 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, has it worked before? < 1293106961 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it has. < 1293106985 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, so what did you change (if anything?) < 1293107018 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Maybe it has always done that localhost connect thingy... < 1293107036 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, well, presumably it hasn't always been failing < 1293107084 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, is lo up when you get to userspace on linux? < 1293107092 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does some early init script start lo < 1293107162 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, /etc/rc.sysinit has /sbin/ifconfig lo 127.0.0.1 up < 1293107184 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right after udev basically < 1293107227 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, apparently strunnel is configured to use AF_INET instead of AF_UNIX for temporary internal sockets. Bleh. < 1293107248 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, the whole "temporary internal sockets" thing sounds weird < 1293107262 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, however, connecting over lo should work on every sane system < 1293107290 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if someone has a crazy enough firewall that it doesn't work, then it is really their own issue < 1293107387 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ unbound-control dump_cache | wc -l < 1293107388 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :26297 < 1293107388 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1293107408 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for wc -c it is 1286918 < 1293107425 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :recompiling strunnel with saner settings.... < 1293107449 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ unbound-control dump_cache | grep -E 'IN[ \t]*A' | wc -l < 1293107449 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4702 < 1293107469 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1805 in AAAA < 1293107470 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1293107484 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so where is the bulk < 1293107500 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1293107505 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IN NS is 971, IN SOA is 1417 < 1293107531 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ unbound-control dump_cache | grep -E '^;' | wc -l < 1293107531 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6728 < 1293107532 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1293107597 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, that seems wrong above < 1293107612 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite, the \t didn't expand it seems < 1293107691 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293107692 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unbound-control dump_cache | grep -Eo $'IN[ \t]*[^ \t]+' | awk '{print $2}' | sort -n | uniq -c | sort -n < 1293107693 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1293107707 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the parsing fails somewhat < 1293107725 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah + there gives more reasonable results... < 1293107753 0 :augur!~augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293107991 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah... stunnel segfaulted. < 1293108032 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, why is it an issue that it uses AF_INET and lo? < 1293108190 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unbound-control dump_cache | sed '/START_MSG_CACHE/q' | grep -Ev '^;' | grep IN | awk '{print $4}' | sort -n | uniq -c | sort -n < 1293108191 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1293108203 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and NS dominates. < 1293108205 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firewall rules. < 1293108212 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, they restrict lo? < 1293108218 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, if so they are utterly bonkers < 1293108259 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, you should setup a data diode or whatever it is called on lo. Just firewall is too insecure! < 1293108350 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stunnel crashes even if client doesn't try to send client certificate. < 1293108489 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, but why are you firewalling lo to this insane degree? < 1293108559 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's stunnel3 compat binary as well. Crashes just as good when connecting. < 1293108583 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, yeah, but uh, why are you firewalling lo to this degree. That is the real wtf < 1293108632 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181139211.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293108810 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tried stunnel 3.26 too. Crashes on connect. < 1293108820 0 :sftp_!~sftp@79.174.49.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1293108842 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1293108861 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> Stunnel sucks... < 1293108876 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, just fix the insane firewall rule < 1293108891 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, really, what are the rules for lo? < 1293108923 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same as global, plus few extra ports allowed. < 1293108934 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, why are you surprised stuff breaks then < 1293108968 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I expect software to use AF_UNIX for local stuff internally, not AF_INET to loopback. < 1293108978 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, the usual way is to check for invalid state (and on ipv6 for rt type 0), then the rule after that/those is generally "if loopback, allow" < 1293108990 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, you expect too much < 1293109009 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, besides, what does it add to security? I doubt anything. < 1293109021 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows-portable software will likely not use AF_UNIX for anything. < 1293109028 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that too < 1293109046 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually have built version of stunnel that uses AF_UNIX as it should. Except that that crashes if client tries to connect... < 1293109056 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, probably because few people use it < 1293109090 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, also, shouldn't you use something like selinux or similar to limit what unix sockets each program can use < 1293109094 0 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1293109098 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It crashes inside SSL client certificate routines, which AFAIK come before it tries to use internal sockets... < 1293109098 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hi < 1293109105 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g'day < 1293109106 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, hm. < 1293109120 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, I suggest you go back to the previous working setup and try again < 1293109144 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn rsi acting up again :( < 1293109151 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, rsi? < 1293109173 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, (as in, which meaning of rsi) < 1293109185 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one which it's painful to type out < 1293109191 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ducks < 1293109218 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah that would be "Register Storage Immediate" < 1293109218 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION then whimpers < 1293109227 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It crashes instantly after receiving the client certificate... < 1293109238 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, even on the previous working setup? < 1293109241 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats Vorpal -----### < 1293109254 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, use speech to text or something < 1293109260 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it would be a good laugh < 1293109288 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this laptop doesn't actually have a microphone. also i hate unnecessary sounds. < 1293109387 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, 3.26 works (including invoking the program) if I don't send a client ceritificate. 4.34 crashes even if I don't send it. < 1293109408 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, is this with or without insane firewall setup? < 1293109423 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, for purposes of debugging you should test if it affects anything < 1293109432 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1293109691 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, no external mic? < 1293109790 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1293109792 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also, I never imagined you as one using a laptop. < 1293109802 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I mean, a vt100 sounds more your style < 1293109808 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1293109808 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe a workstation < 1293109819 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would work too < 1293109826 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, when i was at the university... < 1293109841 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah, but laptop just doesn't suite you! < 1293109853 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, at least use a desktop < 1293109861 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even I use a desktop at home < 1293109978 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, besides laptops are not comfortable for long time use (say, more than a 4-5 hours / day) < 1293109990 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't say. *ouch* < 1293110033 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the touchpad is useless. And the trackpoint finger gets sore after a few hours < 1293110054 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mouse ends up at wrong height often. < 1293110064 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't mind the touchpad, there is no trackpoint < 1293110064 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course the monitor is in the wrong place < 1293110126 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and the travel distance on laptops sucks < 1293110205 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, at least I hope it has full sized keys < 1293110205 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't actually bring it anywhere anyhow < 1293110214 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1293110248 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, anyway, they are inferior to a proper mechanical keyboard < 1293110298 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, found out why stunnel crashes: OpenSSL library/header mismatch. < 1293110329 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now it works even with client certs... < 1293110517 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293110521 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293111408 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293111589 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was that site to find shortest path on wikipedia? < 1293111596 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :between two articles < 1293111631 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor had a game based on it < 1293111641 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I remember some automated tool for it < 1293111646 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1293111653 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are several. < 1293111673 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, right, happen to know where to find one? < 1293111675 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quick googling found me http://thewikigame.com/ but not the one that had the psychedelic color-flashery and link-dropping feature. < 1293111695 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the one I remember was just a pain white page < 1293111697 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That one has a few game modes though.) < 1293111698 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, like, no css < 1293111720 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and I don't want it as a game, I want it as a tool that tells me the shortest path. < 1293111729 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that. < 1293111749 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes, I googled but can't find it < 1293111758 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.netsoc.tcd.ie/~mu/wiki/ ? < 1293111762 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's linked from Wikipedia.) < 1293111765 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1293111790 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm, I guess that works. Not the one I thought of. But any tool that does the job is okay < 1293111800 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit dated (March 2008) now. < 1293111806 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1293111809 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293111917 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1293111917 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also http://www.xltd.com/WikiMindMap/WikiPath.htm but that's not one I remember having seen before. That one doesn't say which day's dump they're using. < 1293111962 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it could be http://www.netsoc.tcd.ie/~mu/wiki/ if they redesigned that page. The result page looks similar to what I remember < 1293111981 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess they could've just prettified it up a bit. < 1293112076 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyone know what the longest path is (excluding those of infinite length due to lack of any links between) < 1293112150 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Several people were asking about what's known as the "diameter" of Wikipedia, that is, the distance between the two articles furthest apart (the longest shortest path if that makes any sense to you). This was in fact the original goal of the project but it turned out not to be very interesting. Wikipedia has giant "tails", almost linear linked lists of articles that stretch out for 70 links." < 1293112156 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's on that six-degrees page. < 1293112166 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1293112180 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Even when I special-cased out that string of 70 boring articles, a new one appeared (I think it was linked pages about administrations of Myanmar or something)." < 1293112185 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello. < 1293112189 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1293112190 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros, hi < 1293112204 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the center of wikipedia (in March 2008) was "2007". < 1293112269 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't they change policy to include less year links in articles? < 1293112286 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i saw some being edited away at one time < 1293112385 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't recall if it was before or after 2008 though < 1293112401 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm, I wonder if wikipedia has an Eulerian path... < 1293112407 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not < 1293112420 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1293112462 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a Hamiltonian path would be interesting as well < 1293112492 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are pages with no incoming links and multiple outgoing links (like some disambig pages), so no. < 1293112500 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both of those only need three articles with either no paths out or no ... right < 1293112542 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what about the set of all pages that can be reached from the centre. < 1293112555 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, dead ends I guess < 1293112556 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1293112566 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need paths both ways < 1293112570 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah < 1293112575 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; I don't know about the strongly-connected component, though. < 1293112587 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, we need to carefully tweak the pages so that such a graph is possible < 1293112596 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even then it can easily fail i think < 1293112603 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, probably. < 1293112607 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1293112610 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A directed graph is Eulerian if it is strongly connected and every vertex has equal in degree and out degree." < 1293112618 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like it's unlikely to hold. < 1293112624 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for eulerian path you cannot have too many with an odd number of in/out neighbors < 1293112643 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so Hamiltonian path might be more feasible < 1293112646 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait _directed_ too < 1293112659 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the links are quite naturally directed. < 1293112716 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293112838 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1293113134 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181130160.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1293113198 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros, ??? at your server < 1293113205 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros, I got in, but wtf < 1293113241 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros, I'm waiting for the real world to be back before I try again < 1293113252 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros, you have some completely weird place there now < 1293113271 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, screenshot? < 1293113298 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, try yourself. There were a number of monster spawner cages embedded in the ground near spawn. And it wasn't the usual world. < 1293113316 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and empty inventory < 1293113321 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it was also beta 1.1_02 and no hMod. < 1293113325 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I assume it's for testing. < 1293113328 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1293113341 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not much point in playing on it < 1293114333 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I get Debian to let me install Sid packages if necessary, but use the Squeeze packages by default? < 1293114470 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Add both to sources.list, then write an APT preferences file to prefer squeeze, but include sid with a lower priority. < 1293114475 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cf. http://jaqque.sbih.org/kplug/apt-pinning.html < 1293114648 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, not working! < 1293114675 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it has worked for me for a mixed-distribution Debian. How is it not working? < 1293114706 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apt-get upgrade still lists insanely huge numbers of packages to upgrade! < 1293114735 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, http://wiki.debian.org/AptPreferences is the official version of above. < 1293114823 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about "apt-get --dry-run -t testing upgrade", does that want to upgrade the world too? < 1293114886 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be no different than using the preferences-file driven pinning, though. < 1293114922 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, assuming I can s/testing/squeeze/, since that's what's on all of my apt lines. < 1293114945 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you could try both. I think they should be usable interchangeably there. < 1293115004 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, OK, got it working. < 1293115329 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1293115433 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's eliottt! < 1293115467 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1293115511 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:59:04 damn rsi acting up again :( < 1293115513 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: not carpal tunnel? < 1293115550 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know precisely < 1293115556 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:12:58 oerjan, besides laptops are not comfortable for long time use (say, more than a 4-5 hours / day) < 1293115564 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i've been using this laptop exclusively for many months now < 1293115601 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i hope you enjoyed vorpal criticising every aspect of your computer, i bet you're going to replace it now < 1293115607 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with all that new knowledge < 1293115629 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very nice sarcasm < 1293115645 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, quick, give me a Debian mirror adress! < 1293115648 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*address < 1293115656 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: se.mirrors.kernel.org < 1293115658 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1293115675 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no < 1293115687 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:46:02 fizzie, it could be http://www.netsoc.tcd.ie/~mu/wiki/ if they redesigned that page. The result page looks similar to what I remember < 1293115688 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1293115693 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mirrors.se.kernel.org/debian/ < 1293115693 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: ^ < 1293115696 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1293115752 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:06:38 ineiros, ??? at your server < 1293115752 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:06:45 ineiros, I got in, but wtf < 1293115752 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:07:21 ineiros, I'm waiting for the real world to be back before I try again < 1293115752 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:07:32 ineiros, you have some completely weird place there now < 1293115752 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:07:51 Vorpal, screenshot? < 1293115753 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:08:18 fizzie, try yourself. There were a number of monster spawner cages embedded in the ground near spawn. And it wasn't the usual world. < 1293115757 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone got a screeny < 1293115768 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:25:33 How do I get Debian to let me install Sid packages if necessary, but use the Squeeze packages by default? < 1293115771 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: YOU NEVER, EVER DO THAT. < 1293115774 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: DO. NOT. DO. THAT. < 1293115783 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1293115804 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: Rephrase. Do not do that unless you /really, really know what you're doing/. *REALLY.* < 1293115872 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: Just manually dpkg -i the few packages from sid you really want. < 1293115891 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1293115999 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:08:18 fizzie, try yourself. There were a number of monster spawner cages embedded in the ground near spawn. And it wasn't the usual world. < 1293116006 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you didn't destroy them, did you? < 1293116108 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, why do you ask < 1293116148 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In case you did. You said "were". < 1293116151 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Past tense. < 1293116160 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Is there a way to get into that blocked-off tunnel near spawn? :p < 1293116182 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god monsters are on < 1293116256 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See those craters? < 1293116261 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me and a couple of creepers. < 1293116320 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm scared < 1293116440 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Killed a fucking zombie with my bare fucking hands, chickened out, disconnected. < 1293116522 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zombie chickens < 1293116533 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: A creeper and a skeleton are currently molesting me from the game over screen. < 1293116539 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, now a zombie too. < 1293116558 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: So I should have rounded up a few enemies if anyone else wants to go on :P < 1293116561 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: Did I mention I ran into the creeper to avoid the horrible fate of zombies? < 1293116591 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: holidays < 1293116592 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bitches can't climb up trees < 1293116688 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the mob spawners just spawn pigs :( < 1293116691 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Got any explanation for this? :P < 1293116709 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: right clicking while holding a feather on dirt or sth -> < 1293116710 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:04:27 [INFO] Connecting to a322.org:25566... < 1293116712 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, < 1293116714 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:04:23 [DIED] protocol.c: 359: Unknown packet id: 0xee (dir 2) < 1293116737 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably desynced due to . < 1293116755 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still can't quite "get over" not adding a length field in the "protocol". < 1293116774 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So has anyone actually done anything other than build a blocked-off tunnel at spawn? :p < 1293116790 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Holding down right click w/ feather -> pretty reliable crash if you walk < 1293116861 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-13-169.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293116865 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll take a look at home, hopefully. Though there's a movie-watching thing, so I might not have time. < 1293116883 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: So is the server staying like this? :p < 1293116901 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know; I haven't heard anything from ineiros except the "hello" on-channel. < 1293116948 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Let's just say yes, 'cuz this is pretty awesome. < 1293116957 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can COLOMIJIGGER < 1293116960 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*MIZE < 1293116977 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dir 2 is PACKET_TO_SERVER, though, so it got desynk'd in the client-to-server stream, which is nice, because that one tends to be less complicated and easier to anamalyze. < 1293116989 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1293117053 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Packet ID 0x05 at least seems to have been completely repurposed, so I'll have to update for that. < 1293117076 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iron at (17,-153) for whenever I'm not shitfaced. < 1293117080 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shtifaced scared that is. < 1293117087 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My terminology does not have to sense-make to be use-make. < 1293117176 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What @ (45,-242). < 1293117227 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THINGS THAT DO NOT WORK: Jumping off a cliff to get down < 1293117244 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> //coords < 1293117245 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:13:29 [CHAT] //coords: x=41, z=31, y=63 < 1293117245 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> //coords < 1293117245 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:13:30 [CHAT] //coords: x=41, z=31, y=63 < 1293117251 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: There's a blank line after the chat prompt. < 1293117254 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Printing bug? < 1293117258 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, wait. < 1293117262 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:08:40 [INFO] Starting up... < 1293117262 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:10:36 [CHAT] //coords: x=17, z=-153, y=65 < 1293117262 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:12:21 [CHAT] //coords: x=45, z=-242, y=85 < 1293117266 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blank line before that last one too. < 1293117621 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello. < 1293117680 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The placed spawners apparently only spawn pigs. I would like to have the capability to edit them, though. But hey, free bacon. < 1293117740 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought to have something else there for a few days until the hMod is stable again. < 1293117789 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, if someone wants to have maps at some point, you should point me to a system that can handle the current mess. < 1293117922 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros: You use cartomograph, right? < 1293117927 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: plz keep it like this, it's awesome. < 1293117932 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As in this map.) < 1293118162 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:28:41 [DIED] protocol.c: 359: Unknown packet id: 0x19 (dir 2) < 1293118164 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after building cloth < 1293118251 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No, pymap. < 1293118265 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros: Why didn't you just patch the region? < 1293118358 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Setting the extents manually caused an exception elsewhere in the code. Didn't have motivation to look further into the code. < 1293118398 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, wasn't it pynemap instead of pymap? < 1293118421 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes, my bad. < 1293118454 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't tried the others; Cartographer 5's Linux port didn't have extents-setting features. < 1293118472 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone has done a google-maps driven map already, though, http://www.triangularpixels.com/Junk/TectonicusTest/map.html < 1293118563 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Programs_and_Editors#Mappers says of one that it's the "The fastest mapper available; capable of processing very large maps. Supports multiple modes including cave maps and resource highlighting." but it seems to be Windows-only, according to them little icons. < 1293118777 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still want to do that google maps / openlayers -based web-tile-mapper at some point, though I'd prefer if it had quasi-real-time player markers and such from a server plugin too. < 1293119170 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: The Google Maps ones take up many-the-gigs of storage space, I gather. < 1293119215 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They could have a limited-size cache and on-the-fly generation. < 1293119279 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That'll not slow the server down at all, nope. < 1293119281 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1293119325 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it could be done on some other box with the world rsync'd every now and then. Not sure how easy it is to add real-life geodata on top of gmaps. (Or openlayers.) < 1293119329 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Minecraft is about to go up in price, so today is your last chance to buy it for €10. Obviously I recommend it. When it officially reaches beta today, the main niggles with the mutliplayer will be gone and the price will be €15." -- yes, those niggles like not being able to duplicate shit :) < 1293119376 0 :Sasha2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1293119417 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I stock up on wood. I stock up on stone. I stock up on metal. I even take some sand. Then I fret that the sand and wood is taking too much potential ham-space, and ditch it. Then I stock up on water. Then I wonder if I should go looking for more diamond to make armour with. Then I wonder if my beacon is tall enough. Then I wonder if I have enough pickaxes. < 1293119418 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I stop being such a dithering prick and set light to the portal." < 1293119439 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I’m almost ready. The only thing wrong with this scene is that it doesn’t feel very dramatic. I’m going to *hell*, there should be some spectacle here. < 1293119439 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I turn around and look at the closest tree for a while, then set fire to it. It starts a forest fire that rages across the hill behind me, enclosing the portal between a crescent of fire and the water of the bay." < 1293119445 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I, too, solve all problems with forest fires. < 1293119531 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is when I discover the rock beneath me is not in fact rock, but a sea of screaming faces that stick to my feet in such a way that I can barely move. Shit like this is going in my TripAdvisor review, Nether. Two stars MAX." < 1293119579 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I bolt back down as the fireball hits above. OK, I saw it. It’s about three blocks this way, then five that way, then a couple up and whunk! I’ve struck obsidian. Congratulations, Tom, you’ve discovered the thing you just came out of." < 1293120655 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: [[The Settlers 7: Paths to a Kingdom < 1293120655 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Super horrible DRM problems aside, this is a fresh air of old school game design, almost feeling board-game like at times. 4/5]] < 1293120665 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Notch -- he hates stupid horrible DRM problems. < 1293120672 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, say, depending on a single server to play the game. < 1293120676 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*game in multiplayer. < 1293120685 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And bundling forced updates with the validation. < 1293120978 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode 1 < 1293120978 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too little, too late. Sonic in an undead zombie by now. 2/5]] < 1293120986 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coming soon to Minecraft -- zombies that aren't undead. < 1293121156 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1293121271 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-219-215-240.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293121436 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros: FWIW, there are supposedly-stable pre-compiled builds of the beta-updated development hMod. < 1293121480 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Someone has done a google-maps driven map already, though, http://www.triangularpixels.com/Junk/TectonicusTest/map.html <-- I seen at least two different programs that does it < 1293121527 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*I've. < 1293121545 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros, when will the server go back to normal btw? < 1293121554 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would guess when hmod is updated < 1293121563 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1293121851 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or never. < 1293121861 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The maps would be cleaner. :p < 1293121868 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm even getting used to dying! A LOT! < 1293122095 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Based on the hmod github commit-log, it's still seeing quite a lot of development, so I'd personally still wait a while. (Though of course for bleeding-edge testing...) < 1293122118 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Isn't that the motto of the League of Notch Apologists? "YOU'RE the testers!" < 1293122323 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that is only because haven't built anything really complicated. Sure the stairs were massive, but they didn't actually take that long. Something like fizzie's house and bunker is a lot more work < 1293122346 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah, we should go back to the proper map when we have a working hmod < 1293122370 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You could just say "MY HOUSE!! MY BEAUTIFUL BEAUTIFUL FORTRESS!!" and be done with it rather than coming up with complicated excuses. < 1293122387 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That /is/ what he said. < 1293122394 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, quite < 1293122493 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, no, he said "You wouldn't know! You're not like fizzie!" < 1293122494 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compare: < 1293122497 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott, that is only because haven't built anything really complicated. Sure the stairs were massive, but they didn't actually take that long. Something like fizzie's house and bunker is a lot more work < 1293122498 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : so yeah, we should go back to the proper map when we have a working hmod < 1293122498 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vs. < 1293122505 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I don't want that, I'd lose my house. < 1293122541 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES! k3 is still available! < 1293122692 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, in other words, you got annoyed because I didn't fit your baseless image of me as someone who constantly whines when I tried to discuss in a civil manner and with proper justification for the statement. < 1293122707 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh snap, time for some quality Vorpal indignation. < 1293122726 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, actually I'm amused. < 1293122907 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone want K3? < 1293123357 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~/k$ chmod +x lin/k < 1293123357 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~/k$ lin/k < 1293123357 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K 3.2 2005-06-25 Copyright (C) 1993-2004 Kx Systems < 1293123357 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LIN32 2CPU 3805MB dinky.local 0 EVAL < 1293123357 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2+2 < 1293123357 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 < 1293123359 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^_^ < 1293123900 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, k3? < 1293123958 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K, the language, version 3. < 1293123980 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, open source? < 1293123991 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what K is ... < 1293124003 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no. in fact i just found the interp against after olegfink linked me to nsl.com's copy < 1293124006 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I don't remember the details no < 1293124018 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like J but different. < 1293124021 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1293124555 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reads the manual < 1293124585 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"K-Lite is a time-limited, reduced version of K which enables interested develop- < 1293124585 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ers to learn the language and develop small applications. K-Lite consists of the K < 1293124585 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :language and interpreter, GUI software, and ASCII file read/write capability. It < 1293124585 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does not include connections, file mapping, interprocess communications or < 1293124585 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :runtime capabilities." <-- hmm, this copy doesn't seem to be time limited < 1293124590 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*time-limited < 1293124659 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, the manual is old < 1293124663 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for K-Lite 2.0 < 1293124665 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas this is real K 3.2 < 1293124720 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: No route to host < 1293124899 0 :jix!jix@tomakin.h-ix.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293124930 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm no it is the EVALuation version I think since it says EVAL < 1293125018 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"For example, Logical Or is denoted by | and Logical And is denoted by & in both K and C." < 1293125020 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er. Not quite. < 1293126140 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT QUITE < 1293126165 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Knot quilt. < 1293126596 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1293126734 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1293127023 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1293127024 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1293127050 0 :jix!jix@tomakin.h-ix.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293127171 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION now wonders how quickly it can take to go from 0 to the first boss in here. < 1293127184 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Come on, absurdity. < 1293127193 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And poor grammar. < 1293127418 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of a few minutes? < 1293127472 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1293127483 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just guessing. < 1293127519 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, bit more than that. < 1293127572 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First hour or so skipped though. < 1293127604 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: are you doing the infinity-plus-one-all-that's-necessary run? < 1293127607 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so: <3 < 1293127609 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1293127614 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: videoing it? :P < 1293127621 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not atm. < 1293127676 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION saveth not! < 1293127837 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, which game? < 1293127840 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Persona 3. < 1293127858 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1293127905 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speedrunning is easy with most of the game being optional. < 1293127915 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1293127945 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Is this going to give you a terrible ending? :P < 1293127950 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :text adventure speed run. How would you measure it? < 1293127958 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in number of commands? < 1293127965 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Not necessarily. < 1293127973 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, that's how it's done. < 1293127977 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah < 1293127981 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: But the good ending would be PAINFUL. < 1293127988 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Take a look at this: http://www.the-spoiler.com/ADVENTURE/Infocom/trinity.1.html < 1293128010 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including comments. < 1293128036 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: There's a 260 floor dungeon. It is only mandatory at the very end of the good ending. < 1293128102 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Can you one-shot it? :P < 1293128117 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can one-shot everything! < 1293128132 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Can you do the bad ending, then go back and do the good ending? < 1293128147 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so: do that, just so you can say you did the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM REQUIRED TO COMPLETE IT the first time. < 1293128149 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can load from a savepoint, yes. < 1293128164 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Save right before the bad/good diverge point :P < 1293128181 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a few minutes from there to the bad ending. < 1293128195 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? < 1293128232 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You choose whether to accept that the world will end or try to fight Death. < 1293128240 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl < 1293128910 0 :j-invariant!~aaaa@unaffiliated/j-invariant JOIN :#esoteric < 1293128920 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi j= < 1293128923 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*j-invariant < 1293128935 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1293128942 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of coq < 1293128943 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_number#Formal_definition < 1293128949 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :defining computable reals by computable dedekind cuts < 1293128953 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so cool < 1293129024 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ok so that has very little to do with coq but still) < 1293129086 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's so simple, I had always thought dedekind cuts would be really complicated to do < 1293129242 0 :roper!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Abandonando < 1293129309 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I wonder what pi looks like < 1293129332 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, seems it takes 45 minutes to get through the intro stuff. < 1293129363 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Not going to play on the HARDCORE SERVER? < 1293129370 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And suddenly... SATAN! < 1293129441 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: still, it seems simpler than the complicated usual approximation-function definition < 1293129447 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: and also the continued fraction definition < 1293129496 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm spending the night in a pitch black 1x1x2 hole with things making noises right next to me. < 1293129744 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: There's a 260 floor dungeon. It is only mandatory at the very end of the good ending. <-- large floors? < 1293129756 0 :Sasha!~WHAT@97-124-38-203.phnx.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293129800 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: hmm i should implement computable dedekind cuts < 1293129804 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's pitch-black hole, mobs can spawn in it. < 1293129813 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how you do arithmetic with them < 1293129815 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: As I said, it's 1x1. So they'd have to spawn... on me. < 1293129821 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: me neither ... < 1293129834 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Technically, they have .3 m above my head to cram into. < 1293129857 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaand the server went down. < 1293129863 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. Perhaps you and them are both really narrow, or something. I don't know if they can spawn there or not. < 1293129879 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, if they are large, is it randomly generated or something (or at least generated + hand edited, actually making that many floors, if large, by hand sounds painful) < 1293129952 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, I would probably get some enjoyment out of a game that is just a randomly-generated world that you can explore. < 1293129959 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do nothing else. Just explore. < 1293130302 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, local game: larger overhang than mt hoover. Also it turns 90 degrees halfway out. And there is no scenery cut off to explain it (that game is all post-halloween) < 1293130324 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It is mostly randomly-generated. < 1293130347 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm okay < 1293130357 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: And changes each time you go to a floor. < 1293130359 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I guess it isn't very story-heavy then? < 1293130361 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ha < 1293130382 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's very story-heavy. The design of the single dungeon is just irrelevant to the story. < 1293130402 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, wow there are 2 more overhangs like it visible from under the middle one < 1293130416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And aside from the very end of the good ending, it's entirely optional. < 1293130418 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and a rather large floating island < 1293130424 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION takes screenshots < 1293130440 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, is there just /one/ good ending? < 1293130465 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also I didn't mean if the game was story-heavy. I meant if the gameplay in that dungeon was < 1293130473 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This house should do me for the night. < 1293130479 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although a creeper will fuck it up. < 1293130482 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shit, I only have three hearts. < 1293130488 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you get health back again? It isn't coming back naturaly. < 1293130509 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eat. < 1293130592 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do any of you play minecraft on ubuntu? < 1293130610 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I have no food. < 1293130613 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I play it on Debian < 1293130615 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so close enough < 1293130616 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1293130620 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just wondering if you have to do any fixes to make it work? < 1293130626 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't work when I tried it < 1293130629 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: So you won't get health back. < 1293130652 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: how do i get food again :D < 1293130654 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: well you need the sun jvm < 1293130656 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sun-java6-* < 1293130661 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, that fixes it for some people < 1293130665 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: what problems did you have? < 1293130679 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Mushrooms, fish, pigs, apples < 1293130688 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you get apples? < 1293130694 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't remember. < 1293130699 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, some mushrooms will hurt you, if I remember correctly. < 1293130714 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I play on Ubuntu with the default openjdk, and it works just fine for me, but indeed for many it doesn't seem to. < 1293130716 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Ah. < 1293130734 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the graphics rendenring was completely wrong, but maybe I should try again with the upgrade < 1293130802 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suspicious lack of noises tonight. < 1293130807 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Gonna play on the survival server? < 1293130817 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It's all ~hardcore~ now although it is night time so you may want to wait some minutes. < 1293130818 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not for a while. < 1293130837 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Fun fact: you only get the infinity-plus-one sword after the first boss. < 1293130839 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, an exposed dungeon up in the very tip of the overhang!! < 1293130848 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Said boss is entirely beatable without leveling. < 1293130853 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Sounds ... silly. < 1293130889 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It's essentially scripted up until then. < 1293130923 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: There's precisely two endings. < 1293130944 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: how do you do "apply recordConstructor." in Coq without it complaining about not being able to find a value for a variable? < 1293130947 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want it to become the new goal < 1293130952 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno if you know < 1293131005 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww, a zombie swimming, how cute. < 1293131008 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a creeper. < 1293131014 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, what? It's LIGHT now, why are you appaering now. < 1293131029 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haha burn < 1293131165 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: eapply < 1293131190 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~~~~~ < 1293131264 0 :wareya_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1293131337 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: any ideas about this proof < 1293131343 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/n4gcr.png < 1293131367 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have mn = id, nm = id, etc.. and I want to show that Ff = m Gf v < 1293131555 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That lasted long. < 1293131563 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: no idea :/ < 1293131567 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I foolishly tried out mcmap. < 1293131579 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: eapply has me trying to prove things on ?7 < 1293131584 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than getting me to specify ?7 first < 1293131588 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is there a tactic for that too? < 1293131592 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yeah if that happens you are in trouble < 1293131596 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: can you please bring bacon? :{ < 1293131612 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say you have category with identity compose and some axioms.. < 1293131613 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: hmm there's a command to declare a subgoal with a specified type right? < 1293131638 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then a good way is instead of eapply Build_Category. you can do apply (Build_Category ). tehn you get goals left over for all the axioms < 1293131648 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how I get around the ? stuff < 1293131653 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strange stuff; mcmap goes into a 100% CPU utilization loop. < 1293131661 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it can be difficult to write the definitions in situ < 1293131667 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you sure do listen to my pleas :P < 1293131676 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have any bacon to bring. < 1293131685 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: there's a mob spawner at spawn. < 1293131687 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes lots of pigs < 1293131693 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :punch => food < 1293131708 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, as soon as I get mcmap to actually let me in. < 1293131717 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'mk stating to think that teh theorem isn't true < 1293131723 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :need more assumptions < 1293131854 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fff now I need to refer to Z's ^ < 1293131855 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's Q's < 1293131860 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i've forgotten how to override scope < 1293131894 0 :Wamanuz4!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1293132134 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: oh god spider noises < 1293132195 0 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293132241 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I haven't had those in single player, but I have had strange noises < 1293132341 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: http://coq.pastebin.com/v1Lb81As < 1293132376 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the proofs are kind of a mess, and it's been hard work - but I got equality of functors defined < 1293132389 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293132472 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: (if there is a neater way to define functor equality, I'll take it!) < 1293132585 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :need natural transforms next < 1293132628 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Lagg. < 1293132638 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i don't know of one, way further than i've got < 1293132647 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lagg indeed. < 1293132660 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I threw out three bacon, I don't know if they disapparated somewhere. Hope not. < 1293132679 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: They were in my inventory when I spawned falling into nothingness. < 1293132685 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1293132701 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You can stay at my house, FWIW. If you're staying on that is. < 1293132701 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not going to start actually playing there, though, I just wanted to check if mcmap worked. < 1293132715 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: See how boring you are?! < 1293132719 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BOERING < 1293133069 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: want to do natural transforms for me? LOL this is making me exausted < 1293133095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: er let me think of an excuse :D < 1293133102 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its' probably going to be another 300 lines < 1293133122 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: and they said Coq couldn't get any more academic! < 1293133127 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you showed them! < 1293133162 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really do want to define limits via cones though < 1293133183 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1293133228 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p^3 <= (3*(q^3)))). < 1293133228 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr < 1293133233 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you do that if p's ^ is in Z_scope < 1293133236 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but q's ^ is in positive_scope? < 1293133259 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something liek (q^3)%Z_scope < 1293133291 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah < 1293133300 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: well no q is positive_scop < 1293133300 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1293133301 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah < 1293133464 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: ( < 1293133464 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ((p^3)%Z) <= < 1293133464 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (Z_of_nat (nat_of_P (3*(q^3))%positive)) < 1293133464 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : )%Z)). < 1293133466 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this will never work :D < 1293133531 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293133549 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just type the full names lol < 1293133558 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-46-37.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1293133792 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun H : Q => < 1293133792 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let p := Qnum H in < 1293133792 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let q := Qden H in < 1293133792 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zle_bool (p ^ 3) (let q' := Z_of_nat (nat_of_P q) in 3 * q' ^ 3) < 1293133794 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks tactics < 1293133879 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the tactic that proves True again :D < 1293133933 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tauto < 1293134022 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1293134022 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : forall r s : Q, < 1293134023 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Is_true < 1293134023 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (let p := Qnum r in < 1293134023 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : let q := Qden r in < 1293134023 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Zle_bool (p ^ 3) (let q' := Z_of_nat (nat_of_P q) in 3 * q' ^ 3)) /\ < 1293134026 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ~ < 1293134027 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Is_true < 1293134029 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (let p := Qnum s in < 1293134031 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : let q := Qden s in < 1293134033 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Zle_bool (p ^ 3) (let q' := Z_of_nat (nat_of_P q) in 3 * q' ^ 3)) -> < 1293134035 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : r < s < 1293134037 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well this looks fun. < 1293134100 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's Is_true? < 1293134104 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: from Bool < 1293134108 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just if x then True else False < 1293134116 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: hmm i'd be better off using match rather than destructing with Qnum and Qden right? < 1293134116 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see < 1293134129 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait that means the theing is decidible < 1293134137 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no because it's quantified < 1293134143 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: right < 1293134148 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/overhang/ < 1293134152 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that beats mt hoover eh? < 1293134154 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you destruct s it should simplify to the same thing < 1293134166 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, i've forgotten all the tactics < 1293134189 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I wish there was another way to twirte proof, some sort of hand waving magic way < 1293134217 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, take http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/overhang/2010-12-23_19.57.42.png for example. That are two huge overhangs next to each other, not a full arch < 1293134220 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: yeah like writing some stuff on paper, saying "the rest is left as an exercise to the reader", and calling it a day < 1293134225 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: why do we need computers to do it anyway! < 1293134235 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: heh < 1293134261 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the rest of the pictures in that dir are quite nice too, showing off the THIRD huge overhang which is hidden in the picture I linked. < 1293134278 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I think that maybe "x = tt" is easier to work with than "if x then True else False" < 1293134316 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1293134329 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you can't get up on one of them because it overhangs all around < 1293134340 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the other two (including the largest one) you can get up on just fine < 1293134368 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (if Zle_bool (p1 ^ 3) (3 * Z_of_nat (nat_of_P q1) ^ 3) < 1293134369 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : then True < 1293134369 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : else False) /\ < 1293134369 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ~ < 1293134369 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (if Zle_bool (p2 ^ 3) (3 * Z_of_nat (nat_of_P q2) ^ 3) < 1293134369 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : then True < 1293134372 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : else False) -> p1 # q1 < p2 # q2 < 1293134378 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"do arithmetic yourself computer." < 1293134381 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zomg it worked!11 < 1293134416 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Error: Omega: Unrecognized predicate or connective: Qlt < 1293134417 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you suck, Omega. < 1293134504 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: wanna do my proof for me? :p < 1293134514 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, there is an image on the improbable dungeon inside the overhang too < 1293134577 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: wait a second omega should handle Qle < 1293134580 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Qlt I mean < 1293134591 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: a second omega? it wouldn't even run once, because of that < 1293134602 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :import QArith and stuff? < 1293134605 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: what upsets me is that it can't match (Is_true (... Zle_bool ...)) to Zle ... < 1293134612 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: oh i have an idea < 1293134613 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: instead of < 1293134615 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D : Q -> bool < 1293134617 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if it was < 1293134621 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D : Q -> Prop < 1293134629 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D_decide : forall x, (D x) \/ ~(D x) < 1293134638 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd give less Is_true crap right? < 1293134848 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you might want to check out http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/overhang/ too < 1293134942 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1293134943 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (1 ^ 3 <= 3 * Z_of_nat (nat_of_P 1) ^ 3)%Z < 1293134945 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's decidable you stupid prover < 1293135019 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compute? < 1293135089 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, indeed, that works < 1293135090 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks :P < 1293135110 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, is this awesome: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/overhang/2010-12-23_19.59.38.png < 1293135117 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, (see the dungeon!) < 1293135129 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn now what's the thing to do ~(x=y) < 1293135132 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for constructors x and y < 1293135142 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah congruence < 1293135146 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :discriminate < 1293135158 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (Gt = Gt -> False) -> False < 1293135168 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: look at that filthy coq, with its ~~p! < 1293135184 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1293135192 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :congruence sorts it out though :P < 1293135199 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : forall r s : Q, < 1293135199 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : match r with < 1293135199 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | p # q => (p ^ 3 <= 3 * Z_of_nat (nat_of_P q) ^ 3)%Z < 1293135199 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : end /\ < 1293135199 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ~ match s with < 1293135200 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | p # q => (p ^ 3 <= 3 * Z_of_nat (nat_of_P q) ^ 3)%Z < 1293135202 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : end -> r < s < 1293135204 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOW IS FUN TIEM < 1293135213 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Error: Omega: Unrecognized predicate or connective: Qlt < 1293135215 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why that is < 1293135217 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't omega do rats?? < 1293135241 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: a creeper exploded one block from my house :) < 1293135268 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ouch < 1293135276 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, was it obsidian? < 1293135284 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, wood, but as i said, one block outside of blast radius < 1293135287 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the creeper one block away < 1293135288 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1293135290 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be fair, i hit it with my sword < 1293135298 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously, it got scared < 1293135298 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1293135308 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, scared to death < 1293135317 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. scared to explosion. < 1293135327 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes, it dies when it explodes < 1293135343 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : match r with < 1293135343 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | p # q => < 1293135343 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : match < 1293135343 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : match p with < 1293135343 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | 0%Z => 0%Z < 1293135343 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | (' x')%Z => < 1293135345 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : match < 1293135347 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : match p with < 1293135349 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | 0%Z => 0%Z < 1293135351 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | (' x'0)%Z => < 1293135353 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1293135355 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: compute on this was a bad idea < 1293135357 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"match match" :D < 1293135383 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1293135397 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: are you sure omega is meant to do Q? < 1293135413 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I think it does < 1293135419 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1293135423 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've imported QArith :/ < 1293135466 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no it does < 1293135477 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z < 1293135497 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Require Import QArith. < 1293135497 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Require Import Omega. < 1293135498 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1293135545 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq version 8.3 is before all a transition version with refinements or extensions of the existing features and libraries and a new tactic nsatz based on Hilbert’s Nullstellensatz for deciding systems of equations over rings. <--- interesting < 1293135555 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : p1 : Z < 1293135555 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : q1 : positive < 1293135555 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : p2 : Z < 1293135555 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : q2 : positive < 1293135555 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1293135555 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (p1 ^ 3 <= 3 * Z_of_nat (nat_of_P q1) ^ 3)%Z /\ < 1293135557 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ~ (p2 ^ 3 <= 3 * Z_of_nat (nat_of_P q2) ^ 3)%Z -> < 1293135559 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : p1 # q1 < p2 # q2 < 1293135561 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :induction here doesn't look promising < 1293135568 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the conversions make things more painful here :/ < 1293135573 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does omega prove it? < 1293135578 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, omega doesn't do Qlt < 1293135581 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# is Qmake < 1293135595 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wish it was Q := Z*(q:Z)*(q>0) < 1293135600 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well change it to p1 * q2 < p2 * q1 < 1293135610 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: is there a premade lemma for that? :P < 1293135623 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you just need p1 * q2 < p2 * q1 iff p1 # q1 < p2 < 1293135624 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#q2 < 1293135651 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1293135661 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope QArith has that < 1293135676 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Notation QDen p := (Zpos (Qden p)). < 1293135676 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1293135732 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H0 : (p1 ^ 3 <= 3 * ' q1 ^ 3)%Z < 1293135732 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H1 : ~ (p2 ^ 3 <= 3 * ' q2 ^ 3)%Z < 1293135732 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1293135732 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : p1 # q1 < p2 # q2 < 1293135735 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks less frightening now < 1293135796 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: lame, stdlib doesn't have that theorem < 1293135822 0 :augur!~augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1293135975 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lemma foo : < 1293135975 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : forall (p1 p2 : Z) (q1 q2 : positive), < 1293135975 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (p1*'q2 < p2*'q1)%Z -> (p1#q1 < p2#q2)%Q. < 1293135975 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : auto. < 1293135975 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Qed. < 1293135978 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was surprisingly painless < 1293136019 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H1 : ~ (p2 ^ 3 <= 3 * ' q2 ^ 3)%Z < 1293136021 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just need to get this to be > < 1293136108 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lemma Znot_ge_lt : forall n m:Z, ~ n >= m -> n < m. < 1293136109 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1293136175 0 :impomatic!~chatzilla@87.114.29.124 JOIN :#esoteric < 1293136187 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : set (H2 := Znot_le_gt (p2^3) (3*'q2^3) H1). < 1293136187 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : destruct H1. < 1293136190 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: is there a nicer way to do this? < 1293136214 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact that doesn't even work < 1293136218 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, I tend to build everything from scratch < 1293136241 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I thought I wanted "rewrite Znot_le_gt in H1" but that doesn't work < 1293136247 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H1 : ~ (p2 ^ 3 <= 3 * ' q2 ^ 3)%Z < 1293136248 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and iw ant < 1293136253 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H1 : (p2 ^ 3 > 3 * ' q2 ^ 3)%Z < 1293136258 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lemma Znot_le_gt : forall n m:Z, ~ n <= m -> n > m. < 1293136259 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1293136260 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see if you can rwewrite all the Q stuff in Z, then use omega for it < 1293136264 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rewrite Znot_le_gt in H1 doesn't work < 1293136267 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: yeah that's what i've done < 1293136271 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1293136274 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but omega can't solve it < 1293136278 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I still need to get this rewrite out of the way < 1293136281 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm not sure how < 1293136291 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try it in Coq < 1293136340 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: want the file < 1293136347 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1293136369 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: http://sprunge.us/BbLA < 1293136427 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I think Coq would be better if all the propositions weren't named... so instead of H1 and the like, there were just the types < 1293136431 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an idea < 1293136437 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also all the proofs in Cut would just be the type with nothing before : < 1293136438 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :letm e try this out < 1293136443 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hard to figure out names :P < 1293136570 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit < 1293136600 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it things A -> B is not quantifier free? < 1293136658 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: well that's a forall :D < 1293136660 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: just intro it < 1293136700 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a second, maybe it's not even true < 1293136722 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: um i should hope not, since it's the example on wikipedia < 1293136726 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a computable dedekind cut < 1293136748 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: so it must be true, by wikipedian infallibility < 1293136758 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i think ic an hack the proof if youc an make "rewrite Znot_le_gt in H1" work :P < 1293136959 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tested it in haskell and found no counter example < 1293137004 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, when coq users can't prove something they do it in haskell instead < 1293137047 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant is my favorite thing ever < 1293137069 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was writing an article once on near-integers, modular forms, and the j-invariant < 1293137070 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1293137096 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just thought i might say that < 1293137140 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : D_true_ex_gt : forall r, D r -> (exists s, s > r /\ D s) < 1293137143 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: lol now THIS < 1293137146 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: this looks unfun < 1293137153 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I "admit"ted the previous one and am moving on for now) < 1293137157 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : r : Q < 1293137158 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H : match r with < 1293137158 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | p # q => (p ^ 3 <= 3 * ' q ^ 3)%Z < 1293137158 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : end < 1293137158 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1293137158 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : exists s : Q, < 1293137160 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : r < s /\ match s with < 1293137162 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | p # q => (p ^ 3 <= 3 * ' q ^ 3)%Z < 1293137165 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : end < 1293137167 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOOKS EASY HUH < 1293137171 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1293137185 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weather.Outside="frightful"; Fire.Delightful=true; Lights.Luminosity=WayDownLow; for (int i=1; i<=3; i++) { LetItSnow(); } < 1293137207 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, can't you encode the statement in SAT or SMT and try an automated prover (iirc coq is interactive?) < 1293137225 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that's a rather ... generic statement < 1293137231 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well yes < 1293137236 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coq has a ton of automatic solvers, none of them want to touch this :) < 1293137241 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah... < 1293137242 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as i can tell < 1293137263 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I was thinking about using something like alt-ergo or cvc3 < 1293137265 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step one is finding an s that satisfies < 1293137287 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: any ideas about what s to try? :p < 1293137322 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what exactly are you trying to prove? I don't know co < 1293137323 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coq* < 1293137355 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i'm trying to prove that D(p/q) = p^3 <= 3*(q^3) is a (computable) dedekind cut < 1293137364 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proving that it's the cube root of three is for after i have arithmetic. :p < 1293137379 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i.e. Yet Another approach to the computable reals < 1293137390 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I guess I can't help until I first check what the heck dedekind cut is < 1293137401 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: you ... don't know? < 1293137407 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, can't say I do no < 1293137424 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedekind_cut < 1293137428 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're the "usual" definition of the reals < 1293137445 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the computable version is described in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_number#Formal_definition starting "There is another equivalent definition" < 1293137448 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, the definition is familiar < 1293137455 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: hi < 1293137455 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, but I don't think I ever heard it's name < 1293137469 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: *its < 1293137474 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Usual"? < 1293137481 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: well, i'd say so < 1293137483 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well not sure about that. < 1293137492 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: dedekind cuts and cauchy sequences are the main ways < 1293137492 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: that's not an approach to computable reals < 1293137499 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: what aren't? < 1293137505 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: whatever you're doing < 1293137505 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say the Cauchy sequence definition is far more common < 1293137514 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the second one really cauched on! < 1293137516 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: that may be so < 1293137526 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: that's both unhelpful and unjustified < 1293137526 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sorry, but oerjan wasn't here) < 1293137545 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: if you want computable reals, you have to start talking about bounds and turing machines < 1293137560 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: I know what computable reals are. There are several approaches. < 1293137576 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. approximation functions, continued fractions, and this one, computable dedekind cuts < 1293137605 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"computable dedekind cuts" sounds like a terrible idea < 1293137644 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: on what grounds? < 1293137646 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually what are computable reals? < 1293137651 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: reals that are computable :-) < 1293137660 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yeah but that's too vauge < 1293137661 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: clever use of shadows to give 32-colour images in minecraft: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/images/c/c4/Dither2.jpg < 1293137673 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: a number which there is a finite process for computing the digits of to arbitrary precision < 1293137675 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Markov made a nice article on that < 1293137677 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In mathematics, particularly theoretical computer science and mathematical logic, the computable numbers, also known as the recursive numbers or the computable reals, are the real numbers that can be computed to within any desired precision by a finite, terminating algorithm. Equivalent definitions can be given using μ-recursive functions, Turing machines or λ-calculus as the formal representation of algorithms." < 1293137682 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are tons of definitions i'd say < 1293137686 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're all equivalent. probably < 1293137687 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they all equivalent? < 1293137693 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, wp says so. < 1293137708 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A computable number was basically just defined as (f(x) - g(y))/h(z) < 1293137718 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where all three functions are computable processes < 1293137728 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1293137739 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Owait < 1293137752 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(f(x) - g(x)) / (1+h(x)) < 1293137776 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1293137781 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wot < 1293137817 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :YeshuaLord < 1293137839 0 :YeshuaLord!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1293137875 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros: Can I have some bacon? < 1293138034 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also Deewiant is certainly right that the cauchy seq. defn is the usual defn of the reals < 1293138045 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but dedekind cuts aren't actually niche. < 1293138074 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always thought I was alone with my cauchy sequences < 1293138098 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who cares about the reals < 1293138104 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construction_of_the_real_numbers damn, wp lists dedekind second < 1293138107 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole set of reals is useless! < 1293138111 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quick, let's edit it to prove Quadrescence wrong < 1293138125 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aleph one of it is basically not found in nature! < 1293138146 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No, my evidence is from reading books < 1293138150 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not Wikipedia all day < 1293138156 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia disproves all books, obviously < 1293138207 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cauchy sequence may be first because it's the most intuitive? < 1293138227 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PROBABLY < 1293138308 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 math classes. :D < 1293138880 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: notch should reintroduce holes in the bedrock, except make them correspond to holes in the nether ceiling < 1293139241 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: :( he's going to add degrade-on-hit < 1293139262 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: there's a creeper jumping outside my door < 1293139521 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: :( he's going to add degrade-on-hit < 1293139521 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1293139525 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what do you mean < 1293139539 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: as in, your pick can break midway through mining obsidian < 1293139542 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's every hit that degrades it < 1293139559 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what the... < 1293139569 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so it won't last as long as before? < 1293139572 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure it will < 1293139578 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the damage will be less < 1293139585 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, apparently block damage will last for like 10 seconds after you stop mining < 1293139585 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1293139590 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have time to change to a new pick < 1293139590 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1293139594 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i liked degrade-on-break < 1293139604 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, not as bad then as it could be < 1293139631 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CREEPER JUST TO THE RIGHT OF MY DOOR HOLY FUCKING SHIT < 1293139641 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, change to peaceful? < 1293139649 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: on SMP? < 1293139654 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i killed it anyway < 1293139656 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy enough < 1293139656 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1293139675 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waiting for someone to log in, kill some pigs, and share the bacon with me; I'll provide lodging in my house in return < 1293139678 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well I'm waiting for the old world. Not really worth building anything in the current world < 1293139679 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only 2.5 hearts left :/ < 1293139679 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1293139692 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no reason this world can't be brought out occasionally < 1293139699 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fun, i've already built a tall house < 1293139708 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and will mine once i can get coal for torches < 1293139711 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, see, I like predictability < 1293139720 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1293139770 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, "logging on thinking you will work on whatever your current project is. Huh, what, not the usual world?!" < 1293139783 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Or we could have it on predictable days ... < 1293139788 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say every two weeks or something. < 1293139805 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're going to say "no just trash it permanently": I built a house I like too, you know. < 1293139814 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except mine's in the survival world. < 1293139835 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, donate to ineiros so he can get a good VPS to run all the servers on side by side < 1293139844 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just have the survival world come out at predictable times. < 1293139859 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, but yes I think we should switch world whenever you feel like working on glass cube < 1293139872 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds good, switch away from the glass cube one then < 1293139908 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Are you just trying to be a dick, or are you really so dense that you'll demand that the peaceful world is kept constantly because of ~YOUR BEAUTIFUL HOUSE~ while completely disregarding the fact that I've built things in the survival world, too, and plan to continue doing so? < 1293139942 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, but you are the only one who built stuff there < 1293139946 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you against all the other ones? < 1293139967 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I didn't say "trash the peaceful world". < 1293139970 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said "have the survival world occasionally". < 1293139985 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, the beta update for hMod won't be out for a little while, and this is only the first day of the survival server. < 1293139994 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yeah, maybe one day per moth < 1293139996 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :month* < 1293140004 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, or whenever hmod breaks due to upgrade < 1293140010 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter seems fair < 1293140021 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I agree, let's only have your house when hMod breaks. < 1293140065 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ... the other way around < 1293140082 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, but I predict it will break fairly often < 1293140083 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahh, I see; your house is worth more because you made it. < 1293140085 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your arguments, they are stellar. < 1293140091 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no it is the hmod world. < 1293140105 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, further, it also happens to contain a LOT more < 1293140109 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :built by other people < 1293140119 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, fizzie, nailor, ineiros, PH and so on < 1293140136 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so you hate the "wonder's of the world" thing. < 1293140158 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you strawman me, then you get the same shit back) < 1293140161 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: any luck? < 1293140365 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293140385 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the proof is 3 lines :D < 1293140388 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, or you could just switch topic... < 1293140390 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you did < 1293140398 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: of what? < 1293140402 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which part i mean < 1293140413 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :equivalence relation on natural transform < 1293140422 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, not my dedekind cuts :P < 1293140428 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1293140430 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool, though < 1293140528 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: have you seen http://coq.inria.fr/stdlib/Coq.Logic.IndefiniteDescription.html? < 1293140601 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros: I'll bribe you for bacon. :p < 1293140626 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: In retrospect, cunionfs is awesome :P < 1293140665 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: What's so awesome about it? :p < 1293140684 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should make a program to copy a CD/DVD with error emulation and other options. In case of error, it makes a error emulation file that the driver will emulate errors when reading the copy. < 1293140757 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'm considering writing a package manager based on it, please tell me it actually works well >_> < 1293140786 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Oh it works fine, that's never been the issue, it just doesn't do much (it's just a per-process union FS) < 1293140792 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also a function to tell it to copy the entire disc even if it says only part of it has data, try copying everything anyways even if it says nothing there. < 1293140850 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: But what I imagine it's most useful for is building packages in a constrained environment where you don't want "smart" configuration dragging in dev packages you didn't want. < 1293140908 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: As well as, of course, "enterprise"y environments like I said before. < 1293140912 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: But what I imagine it's most useful for is building packages in a constrained environment where you don't want "smart" configuration dragging in dev packages you didn't want. < 1293140916 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ITT: Debian and Fedora both have this < 1293140950 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but they do that in a fairly-bizarre way, this is just "let me see this, OK now they're in /usr" < 1293140964 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: So can you mount / as a cuneiformfs? :P < 1293141000 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking about that, and my answer is yes-and-no. You could, if you're willing to do that first-thing then do (most) everything else under chroot. < 1293141046 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only real problem is that the directories you mount under it need to exist, but for them to exist they need to be in another FS (to be unioned in) < 1293141138 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I was thinking about that, and my answer is yes-and-no. You could, if you're willing to do that first-thing then do (most) everything else under chroot. < 1293141139 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :switch_root < 1293141142 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :silly < 1293141147 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's what initramfses do IIRC < 1293141158 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it pulverises your existing / :P < 1293141165 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't resolve the issue I mentioned later. < 1293141186 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The directories you're going to mount /other/ filesystems to need to exist, but for them to exist, they need to ... already exist :P < 1293141248 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello there. < 1293141262 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To have two degrees instead of 1, I need: 1 extra class. < 1293141378 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: http://coq.pastebin.com/xnGjabR6 line 481 < 1293141422 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't look at lines nera 200 :P < 1293141446 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that stuff is awful but I don't know a better way < 1293141469 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i like it, i also think that it will never work as an stdlib :D < 1293141514 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm going to try to define universal cones so I can get things like products < 1293141568 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds good < 1293141585 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: For a stow-alike, are there any advantages to cunionfs over unionfs? :p < 1293141600 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why wont it work as a stdlib? < 1293141608 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: well it might with enough layering < 1293141616 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: i just mean, if you have to build categories like that all the time < 1293141648 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think (but I have to study this first) you can define a 'type theory' category, and just use that for everything < 1293141650 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes, every process can see its own stowish environment, giving it the build advantage I mentioned before, as well as the ability to have conflicting packages installed simultaneously, etc. Whether that's an advantage to you depends on what you want *shrugs* < 1293141663 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: That's an sps-alike, not a stow-alike :P < 1293141675 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But yeah, compelling. < 1293141682 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: but that might be like defining a self interpreter for coq so.. < 1293141685 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Now guarantee that cunionfs is stable enough to use in Kitten :P < 1293141686 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: For a stow-alike, are there any advantages to unionfs over ... stow? < 1293141690 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: yeah ... < 1293141694 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: also it'd be rather abstract < 1293141697 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I can't guarantee anything, it's F/OSS :P < 1293141698 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: like coding ASTs manually < 1293141703 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: stow uses ... symlinks. < 1293141706 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ask pikhq for the gory details. < 1293141717 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note: Symlinks are pretty much the devil. < 1293141735 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well, half-guarantee then :P < 1293141735 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to implement something like Knuth Bendix completion to automatically prove theorems < 1293141755 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: GNU stow does nothing more than looking in the stow directory and checking for files that aren't symlinked into the path. < 1293141775 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I have fair confidence that cunionfs is sufficiently stable, and that any stability issues are sufficiently minor that they could be fixed in short order. < 1293141790 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not *terrible*, but it's only one step removed from Slackware's "untar things to root". < 1293141818 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: By you or me :P < 1293141821 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well, it claims to be a package manager for people who don't want package managers, right? :P < 1293141833 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: By me if they're interesting :P < 1293141844 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stow is the official package manager of the GNU Operating System. < 1293141847 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True story. < 1293141853 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And cpio the official archiver :P < 1293141857 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Frankly, I'd very much like to see a package manager properly integrated with cunionfs, so it's in my best interest to be helpful. < 1293141880 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Note: It would not plug into an existing package manager, it'd be an entirely new one based on cunionfs :P < 1293141884 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't like it, SUX2BEU. < 1293141884 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is definitely going to end up with a dual major, then. < 1293141906 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 credit hours extra for the freaking second major? Hells yes. < 1293141910 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Mathematical Knitting and Advanced Haberdashery? < 1293141911 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: My integration with dpkg was ... spotty at best, mainly because dpkg (as with all other package managers) is wildly unsuited to union-based "transient" packages. < 1293141922 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: CS and mathematics. < 1293141933 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: U BORIN < 1293141945 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would pay endless amounts of money for a degree in Advanced Haberdashery. < 1293141967 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: To be honest, the actual package manager part looks suspiciously close to "untar into /pkg/x" the way this is looking :P < 1293141968 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION bestows upon elliott a B.A. in Advanced Haberdashery. < 1293141978 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yæy < 1293141990 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: If it has SOME dependency management beyond that, that'd be nice :P < 1293142006 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I increasingly regret not getting a minor in archaeology when I had the chance :( < 1293142017 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yes, but the actual install part :P < 1293142029 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I could also pick up a minor in just about anything. < 1293142035 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Er, anything liberal arts-y. < 1293142037 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sidenote on archaeology: Indiana Jones films -- 10x better if he sat there doing actual archaeology when shit was doing down? Answer: yes. < 1293142050 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You see, the liberal arts requirements are completely undefined. < 1293142061 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except in terms of credit hours needed. < 1293142068 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I see no reason why the /install/ would be anything else, it's just the runtime choice of packages to union in that's interesting. < 1293142076 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Awesome. Awesome to the max. < 1293142099 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How I would do it, is package manager operating by pipes. I would do it other programs are also operating by pipes. < 1293142198 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Wait, you mean when you do "emacs" it should create a new union with ONLY THE THINGS EMACS NEEDS? < 1293142214 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: That has the major flaw that looking at /usr/bin with emacs would make me go wtf and get angry at my computer for being too smart :P < 1293142226 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also bash. < 1293142321 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Or is that not what you meant. < 1293142463 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: :| < 1293142533 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hypothesise that Gregor cannot see his IRC client from inside his current process. < 1293142597 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :frustrating: Terminal objects are defined by universal cones on the empty diagram... but universal cones are defined in terms of terminal object. So i have to define terminal objects twice < 1293142724 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1293142905 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I have pioneered a new type of mining. < 1293142920 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: mutually recursive objects! < 1293142949 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mutual recursion is terrifying < 1293143024 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: oi < 1293143079 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh? < 1293143126 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1293143188 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, any details? < 1293143385 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't you mean: A New Kind of Mining. < 1293143445 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes. I call it: Creeper mining. < 1293143450 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It also works for cutting down trees. < 1293143490 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Basically, you keep all your possessions in a chest. Then at night you walk out, see somewhere you'd like to mine/chop, and get a creeper there. < 1293143492 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you walk into it. < 1293143553 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reappears. < 1293143563 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No, I do not mean that when you type "emacs", it should create a new union. < 1293143586 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But that would be awesometerrible :P < 1293143627 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The unions are, at the minimal, by process-level, but most users would probably opt to just have their own master list, and the system would presumably have a semi-compulsory list. Users could of course opt to make more/less restricted lists for individual processes if they so desired, but the default (for sanity) would be to /behave/ as a per-user package system, while providing sufficient abstraction for per-process. < 1293143685 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think of it like open fds: If you keep on opening new shit, it's going to have the same std{in,out,error}, unless you or it opt not to. < 1293143689 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: How does one actually add a new union? < 1293143740 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: CUNIONFS_DIRS environment variable, which (originally, Idonno if I reimplemented this in cunionfs (yet) or not) was backed by a per-user configuration file, backed by a per-system configuration file. < 1293143771 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But since environment variables are passed exactly like fds, that abstraction fits best. < 1293143818 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hmm < 1293143827 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Woo me with its features < 1293143837 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: The saddest creeper: standing in a tree, facing the leaves, so that it will never see anything. < 1293143874 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't have sufficient motivation to try so hard; if you want each process to have its own unique and easily-malleable view of the FS, you want cunionfs. Otherwise, you don't. < 1293143897 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I don't, but I do want semi-sane builds and stow-like package management :P < 1293143971 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my opinion "stow-like" is a bad compromise. So long as you have everything separated, there's no need to use something so clunky as a whole-system union to view it. < 1293144003 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1293144036 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :The sillier you are to the batsman, the closer you are. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1293144089 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then, once again, it comes down to needs/wants: If you want more flexibility in what individual users/processes/whatever sees, then you really don't have all that many options .. it's either a smarter unionfs or something that clunks together a bunch of PATH, LD_LIBRARY_PATH, CFLAGS, LDFLAGS, etc etc environment variables. < 1293144100 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't, don't use it :P < 1293144103 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : In my opinion "stow-like" is a bad compromise. So long as you have everything separated, there's no need to use something so clunky as a whole-system union to view it. < 1293144110 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would you have as the usual configuration, then, if not "all packages exposed"? < 1293144112 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have time now to review my TeXnicard program so far? http://sprunge.us/RgEZ < 1293144170 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: "All packages" could very well have conflicting packages in it. The default would be defined by the package manager. It would probably be what most distros consider a "task", or just whatever the system maintainer cared to make default. < 1293144224 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'm just saying that in general, 99.9% of the packages would be available, since two conflicting packages are rather rare to install < 1293144235 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember, packages have versions too. < 1293144249 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: OK then, the default would be the largest set of non-conflicting packages or whatever. < 1293144252 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But that's still stow-like < 1293144275 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. with stow, macports, etc you can have multiple versions of programs/libraries installed. Then you can swap them out when there are incompatibilities, bugs, whatever. A cunionfs-based system would let you work around such bugs on a per-process basis without having to do anything particularly crazy. < 1293144311 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But once again, all the cases I've listed where cunionfs gives you advantages over something whole-system are sort of corner-cases, I just argue that there are sufficiently many such corner cases that giving the flexibility /might/ be worthwhile *shrugs* < 1293144331 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: To be honest, I'd go straight to unionfs if not for the nice-builds thing. That seems compelling to me. < 1293144343 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, well, how easy is it to change the union of a unionfs/aufs mount without umounting? < 1293144346 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not easy: CUNIONFS IT IS < 1293144350 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone up for bacon? < 1293144361 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I have no idea, probably not difficult. < 1293144364 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros: Well. Uh. I sorta died enough that I have full health now. But you can come see my house! < 1293144394 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros: Why do you ask? < 1293144503 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Not very hard; mount -o remount < 1293144514 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Is there any window of not-workingness for the mount? < 1293144536 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Still, I could avoid chroots entirely with cunionfs... right? For building, I mean. < 1293144545 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1293144564 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd just say "give me these dev packages, OK now build" < 1293144606 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The inodes aren't guaranteed to remain the same across a remount, but otherwise everything continues to work. < 1293144644 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I need to design a language for category theory (so I can automatically compute things like duals) < 1293144660 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: yea < 1293144675 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: Do you have ideas how you can do that? < 1293144694 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: not yet but I am wondering if it could be done in terms of category theory < 1293144711 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: How much do you know of category theory? < 1293144784 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I think I finally have the basic definitions down, but that took a long time < 1293145194 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think the mindset can take a long time to learn because a lot of things can be descrivbed in this language in a very conscice way which you would not expect < 1293145268 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, like TNT, creepers destroy a percentage of the blocsk < 1293145271 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blocks* < 1293145348 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: What is the percentage? < 1293145615 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone told me that Wikipedia will be removed. Is that true? < 1293145655 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I doubt it unless there is a good reason < 1293145671 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without an explanation there is no reason to beleive it < 1293145686 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: They told me it is because they have no more money. < 1293145695 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that sounds like a hoax < 1293145708 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit! < 1293145722 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I went to wikipedia to click on the advert bar.. now its gone < 1293145792 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: I look too and it is gone. I also looked in the meta and in the preferences and did not find information about it. < 1293145934 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant, the bar at the top of http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate looks rather bad though < 1293145951 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad? they have 12.5 million dollars < 1293145963 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: O, that is where they moved it to. < 1293145973 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant, oh wait, it needs js < 1293145973 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks Vorpal that's what I was looking for < 1293145983 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant, that looks very very different when I allow it in no-script < 1293146010 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i thought you were mentioning Vorpal for no reason XD < 1293146047 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, who? < 1293146053 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(who was mentioning I mean) < 1293146056 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(zzo or j-inv) < 1293146103 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm, I suspect you have me on ignore. < 1293146126 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1293146146 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he can't take being wrong I guess. < 1293146201 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: But what if you are being unsure instead of just plainly wrong? < 1293146222 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, what? I'm not wrong. elliott is < 1293146237 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, please read what I actually wrote < 1293146242 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I didn't mean you personally. I meant in general. < 1293146245 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1293146257 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, what about it < 1293146332 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Maybe I am not writing clearly. < 1293146352 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, maybe. < 1293146618 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now review TeXnicard program! Tell me if there is any mistake, thing I forgot, opinion, question, etc. http://sprunge.us/RgEZ < 1293146632 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And did you notice I changed a few words around in the topic message for this channel, today? < 1293146761 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tell me if (in your opinion) I did the random numbers correctly. < 1293146962 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, fizzie, elliott and others who might care: I put the normal world back up, without hMod. The backups are now unattended and done without turning the level saving off, so there's a good chance they won't all go as planned. < 1293147111 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1293147729 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros, heh < 1293147760 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros, is it without monsters? < 1293147887 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros: /msg < 1293148687 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: "The concrete details of a given construction may be messy, but if the construction satisfies a universal property, one can forget all those details: all there is to know about the construct is already contained in the universal property" - quoted from Dear Learder Wikipedia < 1293148730 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's sort of like proof irrelevance, but for general constructions < 1293148731 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: it's like a philosophy of life! < 1293148761 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j-invariant: hmm, that reminds me of how in non-dependent functional langs, you can encode values as their type's fold combinator < 1293148782 0 :j-invariant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the univesral property :P < 1293148795 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah