< 1292025722 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Please tell me whether or not any of this makes any sense to you. < 1292025747 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292025813 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292025867 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Please tell me you feel a great surge of pride every day knowing you created {{purge}}. < 1292025915 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that makes sense. < 1292025940 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: Does the files I linked makes sense to you? < 1292025958 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION isn't sure how serious elliott is, but I am somewhat glad I made some somewhat widely used contribution
< 1292026040 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, if I can figure out how it's used today, since I certainly don't see a purge link on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Buffer_overflow < 1292026056 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also made http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Wstress3d < 1292026283 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: oh, those files. I didn't look closely at them. < 1292026316 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo created Wikipedia's {{purge}}? < 1292026375 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have as much claim to it as I have to Wikihack and Creatures Wiki < 1292026390 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I created a page number template which was once used on Wikipedia, that template is now gone, however. < 1292026433 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is probably the most significant thing I ever posted on Wikipedia, except for a few userboxes I created, some of which (but only a few!) are used by other users too. < 1292026459 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of my Wikipedia edits are removing commas. < 1292026469 0 :Sasha!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1292026503 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have done some minor changes like that too, but I think it was never removing commas, as far as I know. < 1292026588 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to see which userboxes that I have created are used by other user pages, go to edit on my user page, and then on the list of templates see things started with "User:Zzo38/Userboxes/" scrolled there, click on each one and select "What links here" to see what pages used that template. < 1292026629 0 :Sasha!~WHAT@97-124-32-212.phnx.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292026641 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[User:Zzo38/Userboxes/cmdline]] seems to be the one used the most. < 1292026789 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If GoL scientists discovered the glider, would they assume that it has "phases" that it exists in < 1292026803 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gliders in phase 1 react a certain way, gliders in phase 2 act differently < 1292026804 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1292026814 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although presumably macro-level objects are mostly resistant < 1292026822 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or self-repairing < 1292026892 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1292026896 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nigh < 1292026897 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1292026949 0 :tswett!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that's very likely. They might not even discover until the very end that the two things are both gliders. < 1292027058 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, they might discover that glider guns seem to produce one or the other or both seemingly at random < 1292027077 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(depending on how they position the target object, but they wouldn't know that) < 1292027156 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they'd... only see one at a time, they wouldn't see both eminating at once < 1292027253 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm that's an interesting idea - if their life form has a consistent global phase with some large cycle number, like our own molecules have chirality... < 1292027283 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if the cycle length is even, then the two phases of glider _would_ have different biological effects < 1292027359 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: :D < 1292027366 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish GoL was the universe, it's cooler than this one < 1292027446 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Out of phase" has more meaning in their universe than it does in ours < 1292027450 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although they would probably still be capable of producing chaos in scientific experiments, assuming their universe contained some to start with < 1292027534 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about the orientation of the glider? < 1292027570 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, as in, it kind of has 4 phases, 2 of which are just reflections of the other 2 < 1292027589 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1292027597 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they might see 4 different kinds < 1292027676 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also if their life form has parts that are always directed in the same way globally, then they might even find gliders traveling in different directions to be different < 1292027715 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, didn't think of that < 1292027734 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's.. interesting < 1292027742 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they might need to do experiments with chaos in order to discover the simpler fundamental rules < 1292027786 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does it have to take on such an existance. Why not a different form of life, more like a single sentient being? < 1292027787 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :life could have global symmetry phases both in position on the grid, timing, and direction < 1292027789 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, Sgeo ^ < 1292027795 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depending how little/much their smallest movement is (if they can move), they'd notice that building a glider gun in different places results in different gliders? < 1292027797 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: very irrelevant to this hypothetical. < 1292027819 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1292027822 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh? < 1292027833 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: except without chaos to investigate they might not even recognize building a glider gun in different places as the same operation < 1292027890 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...huh < 1292027916 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they might have to use entirely different methods to build them 1 place shifted < 1292028170 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would they even get a correct value for c? < 1292028207 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things in a vacuum have a maximum speed that's lower than c, right? < 1292028245 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :periodic things, yes < 1292028267 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a long line still expands at c, but it gets shorter in the process < 1292028453 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Max speed in a vacuum in Life is c/2, IIRC. < 1292028486 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking that we should make a simulation that lets us pretend to be GoL Scientists, but we don't know what good manipulatory .. manipulations are reasonable < 1292028811 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, wow, amazing lava + water cavern < 1292029063 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there items in GoL with a small number of parents? < 1292029089 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps some life might evolve with a finite resource, a pattern that is involved with some reaction that ends up returning just that pattern < 1292029110 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Said pattern has no parents other than reactions in which the pattern is part of the parent < 1292029136 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Are there items in GoL with a small number of parents? < 1292029140 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are items with 0. < 1292029156 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have said non-zero < 1292029621 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :93 true < 1292029623 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is more f'n like it! < 1292029629 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Okay, I love ELF now (since I got it working.) < 1292029637 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's even a pretty "istruc", too! < 1292029641 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-D < 1292029658 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.dslreports.com/r0/download/1606057~0c86508b26b11f6901e6989a7b4e327c/Soeed.JPG From a recent FCC survey on broadband in the US. < 1292029689 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: http://sprunge.us/TjZS true.s :P < 1292029711 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: (I am not at all sure "xor al, al inc al" works reliably if anything above the low byte of eax is set.) < 1292029721 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure how much the kernel looks at, for a syscall, or what guarantees there are on eax's initial value in Linux :P < 1292029724 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl < 1292029739 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that by the FCC's current standards on what "broadband" is, 58% of US broadband connections aren't. < 1292029765 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine most assuredly is not. < 1292029768 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Still, dude, 92 bytes! Not bad! < 1292029780 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: 4 Mbps down and 1 Mbps up? < 1292029784 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: A shell script would be shorter ;) < 1292029786 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Nope. < 1292029788 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now to go further in the Whirlwind page and pick the one that stays remotely sane :P < 1292029794 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Not if you add /bin/sh's size :P < 1292029810 0 :Sasha!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1292029816 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Thing I learned reading sco.com (lawl)'s copy of the ELF header specification thing: ELFs can set an interpreter. Seriously. < 1292029820 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who needs shebangs?! < 1292029820 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm assuming, based on my brilliance, that you have to include /bin/sh ANYWAY. < 1292029821 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But remember, "we're number one!". < 1292029837 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That is actually how dynamic linking works. < 1292029840 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Not if you don't need it! < 1292029842 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Calling that an interpreter is a bit misleading, although that is the spec, that's where you put /lib/ld.so < 1292029844 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The dynamic linker is set as the interpreter. < 1292029845 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh, indeed. < 1292029850 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say their biological cycle is a multiple of 4 < 1292029859 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But what if you wrote an ELF/esolang polyglot? :p < 1292029862 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They see gliders as 4 distinct particles, don't see the connect < 1292029863 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Why not just "xor eax, eax" + "inc eax"? It's not any longer. < 1292029866 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or /anylang, but I doubt most languages would accept such silly :P < 1292029870 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It is? Oh, wonderful. :p < 1292029873 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: But yeah, it could be an invalid ELF otherwise, just enough to get passed into an interpreter :P < 1292029873 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happens when they come across a 5... thingy item < 1292029883 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yes, but the ld.so actually gets passed the file. :) < 1292029898 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might they eventually deduce that the 4 particles are in fact the same, similar to the 5-phase item? < 1292029898 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1292029903 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Kudos to the first person to write an ELF/something else polyglot with the something-else set as the interpreter :P < 1292029910 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could actually set your ELF files to load using qemu. :P < 1292029915 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Mega kudos if it's a quine. < 1292029929 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Only if you lied about architecture and the like :P < 1292029931 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, it'd only really work if the file in question is statically linked.) < 1292029937 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Should be possible with BF. < 1292029937 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: http://sprunge.us/TjZS true.s! < 1292029949 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: That's so close to cheating that I don't like it :P < 1292029954 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: :) < 1292029956 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1292029967 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Like polyglots where the other languages are all in comments. < 1292029972 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, man, you gotta use dual meanings! < 1292029995 0 :Sasha!~WHAT@97-124-41-56.phnx.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292030009 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why my version of true is two bytes larger than his 42... < 1292030022 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps nasm changed the instructions generated somehow, but I doubt it. < 1292030030 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in the, what, 11 years since that article was written) < 1292030036 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It is in fact one byte shorter with eax: < 1292030038 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00000000 30C0 xor al,al < 1292030038 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00000002 FEC0 inc al < 1292030038 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00000004 31C0 xor eax,eax < 1292030038 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00000006 40 inc eax < 1292030043 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: What luck. < 1292030106 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Note that the last eight bytes in the ELF header bear a certain kind of resemblence to the first eight bytes in the program header table. A certain kind of resemblence that might be described as "identical".]] < 1292030110 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some phrasings I just love. < 1292030193 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: OTOH "xor ebx, ebx" seems to be bigger than "xor bx, bx" here. < 1292030217 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It shouldn't, in 32-bit mode. < 1292030246 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One will require a prefix byte, but it should be the one that's not the "native" size. < 1292030266 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ndisasm defaults to -b 16 though.) < 1292030305 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I found a VAST lava + water cavern < 1292030310 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got lost in it for half an hour < 1292030314 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before I found my way back < 1292030318 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, fizzie ^ < 1292030333 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, just 30 second walk from underground dock < 1292030355 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION decides that 93 bytes is acceptable for true
< 1292030357 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shocking, I know. < 1292030363 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not going to interleave with the ELF header. < 1292030408 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's harder to interleave with the structs anyway. :p < 1292030424 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, do you realise you will NEVER use less than min(page-size,disk-sector-size) < 1292030489 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292030500 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: untrue < 1292030506 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you, e.g., pack it all into one file < 1292030518 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: not really, well yes ehdr and phdr, but not putting the code into ehdr < 1292030521 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well okay < 1292030524 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: since it's basically just macros :P < 1292030540 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: anyway it's not about saving disk space, which I have in abundance < 1292030575 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also don't the filesystems do tail-packing nowadays anyway? < 1292030599 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: it's more about coding asceticism, for fun and also to remind myself facilis descensus Averni. < 1292030612 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(At least experimentally.) < 1292030614 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Whereby Avernus I clearly mean bloated code.) < 1292030799 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~/code/crtls$ make; wc -c true < 1292030800 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make: Nothing to be done for `all'. < 1292030800 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :94 true < 1292030800 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~/code/crtls$ make; wc -c true < 1292030800 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nasm -f bin true.s -o true < 1292030800 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chmod +x true < 1292030802 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :93 true < 1292030808 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I replaced "xor ebx, ebx" with "xor bx, bx". < 1292030810 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I swear, it's smaller. < 1292030823 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bl is the same as bx. < 1292030835 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure you're assembling with bits 32? < 1292030846 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not the default with -f bin. < 1292030857 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00000007 31DB xor ebx,ebx < 1292030857 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00000009 6631DB xor bx,bx < 1292030857 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0000000C 30DB xor bl,bl < 1292030874 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are the three variants with ndisasm -b 32. < 1292030885 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Indeed I was not! Oops. < 1292030900 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now my size matches Raiter's, too. Joy. < 1292030911 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: And the two variants are the same, as well, although ebx is probably "nicer". < 1292030936 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real 0m0.001s < 1292030937 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I sleeps now.) < 1292030940 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the fastest true I've ever seen! < 1292030942 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ASM POWER! < 1292031042 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"When Linux starts up a new executable, one of the things it does is zero out the accumulator (as well as most of the other registers). Taking advantage of this fact would have allowed me to remove the xor, bringing the program down to five bytes. However, this behavior is certainly not documented, and there's no guarantee that it can be counted on to stay that way (other than the lack of any obvious reason to change it)." < 1292031048 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Methinks I will not rely on that. :p < 1292031074 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without any code, my ELF spooge takes up 84 bytes. I think that is an acceptable smallest program size :P < 1292031183 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My eyes love me so much for this new theme. < 1292031535 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"VbeSignature should be set to 'VBE2' when function is called to indicate VBE3.0" < 1292031750 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ... guh? < 1292031765 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: From the Plan 9 fortune file :P < 1292031830 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292031878 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If emacs buffers were limited to the size of memory, it would not be possible to < 1292031878 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :edit /dev/mem." < 1292031885 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a profound and yet utterly insane statement. < 1292032029 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What we need is the computer game allowing adjusting all the rules, including: days played, hours played per day, season, wind, gravitational field strength, match condition, players per team, wicket strength, field diameter, field eccentricity, pitch length, leg bye toggle, LBW toggle, time limits, etc. < 1292032114 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It shouldn't make much sense to edit /dev/mem directly in emacs though!? < 1292032147 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would be great is editing the part of Emacs' memory that pertains to the open /dev/mem buffer. < 1292032155 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Emacsen all the way down! < 1292032183 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Figure out if you can do that. < 1292032215 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: No :P Thinking about Emacs makes my head hurt, I just use the thing and pretend it doesn't exist. < 1292032264 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then figure out if you know anything about making a computer game like I described. < 1292032305 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many computer games allow adjusting gravitational field strength? < 1292032334 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to see if I can watch the first ep of DS9 < 1292032358 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Then do watch the first ep of DS9 < 1292032394 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no, he's just going to check if he _can_. for the principle of it. < 1292032423 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, check if you can. < 1292032441 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, are there simple 5... thing spaceships? < 1292032450 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i have no idea < 1292032457 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the description I made, what other rules are needed adjustment, I think? < 1292032464 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has got a new shell account on an OpenBSD box
< 1292032467 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION likes
< 1292032469 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least, ones with an odd number of ... I want to call them phases < 1292032481 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Next time see if you can watch DS999 < 1292032518 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: No, you have to call them phones. Even if it is incorrect. < 1292032600 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1292032654 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again? < 1292032665 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again?? < 1292032720 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal goes to bed about 5 times every night. < 1292032730 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he dilutes the usage of → to a hideous degree. < 1292032746 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION points a glider gun at Vorpal
< 1292032767 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Maybe he has the macro set up to do that, and he didn't bother to change it. < 1292032767 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal is secretly a hamster < 1292032798 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i approve of this theory < 1292032819 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they eventually work out that these four c/4 diagonally-moving particles that move in the same direction are one and the same, might they end up lumping in other spaceships that are also c/4 in the same direction? < 1292032847 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As they lazily assume that that's the best observable distinguishing characteristic < 1292032905 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :day < 1292032909 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1292032979 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if they don't directly observe that the 4 phases are similar, but guess it from a 5-phase ship or something < 1292034379 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh... IPv6 in practice is just a one big Charlie Foxtrot. Well, if you take all the RFCs about it, it is a decent network-layer protocol, but the practical implementation is just CF. < 1292034476 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: YAY PEOPLE < 1292034498 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: This is why technical specifications must be flawless and completely-specified; then it'll only be a major clusterfuck, rather than a gigantic one! < 1292034506 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And that's really the best you can hope for.) < 1292034563 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it is not incomplete specifications that are the problem... It is the "not implemented yet" and "broken in practice" stuff... < 1292034693 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and then there's still that great IPv6 routing split (really really bad)... < 1292034882 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with IPv6 implementations? Beside the fact that they're not used? < 1292035017 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#1) The great routing split #2) Hosts that think they have IPv6 connectivity but don't #3) Last mile issues #4) Low adoption on client side. < 1292035049 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1292035080 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-173-239-57.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292035123 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and then there's DNS whitelisting. It just won't scale. < 1292035159 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The complexity isn't linear, it is quadric, and the n is very large. < 1292035321 0 :donglongchao!donglongch@112.0.38.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292035323 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DNS. Whitelisting < 1292035325 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1292035356 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what that means, but please tell me it's more sane than it sounds < 1292035397 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alsol, what's the great routing split? < 1292035490 0 :donglongchao!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1292035634 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't realise how badly I was treating my eyes before this. < 1292035744 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If GoL life _doesn't_ have a NORTH or whatever, and can rotate, they might discover that 2 of the phases are just the other two upside down < 1292035751 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or might not, I guess < 1292035766 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So they'd think there are 2 distinct particles instead of 4 < 1292035780 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why am I calling it a "particle"? < 1292035794 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, I'm mistaken, aren't I? < 1292035807 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ? < 1292035816 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, n/ < 1292035817 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :m < 1292035823 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: ? < 1292035836 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I didn't realise how badly I was treating my eyes before this. < 1292035862 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I've upped all my font sizes and made my theme a bit nicer on the eyes :P < 1292035884 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Specifically everything's about 12pt now, although what I actually did was set my PPI properly, so it's still set at 10pt. < 1292035885 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should wear polarized computer-viewing glasses like meeeeeeeeeeeee :P < 1292035887 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the point is it's big. < 1292035893 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Do you... actually do that? < 1292035901 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Have for years. < 1292035914 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the problem was that 10pt fonts when X thinks your display is 96 ppi and you actually have a 120 ppi laptop display that you sit away from = LOL PAIN < 1292035924 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But why. < 1292035940 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Because after I sit in front of a computer without them for an hour or so, my eyes start to scream at me. < 1292035977 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: What do they even change, anyway? Visually. :p < 1292036002 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My eyes have adapted to staring at a computer screen for countless hours at a time. Surprisingly I don't need glasses and have better-than-average vision even after all these years... < 1292036009 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Uhh, everything looks yellow? They reduce glare? I'm really not sure, but I know that they work, and believe their affect to be stronger than placebo. < 1292036024 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have great vision, my eyes just burn after staring at a computer for a while :P < 1292036026 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Well, it probably isn't. < 1292036117 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Everything looking yellow sounds "fun" < 1292036122 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: As in "no thanks" :P < 1292036277 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You certainly lack faith in your mind's ability to adapt to scenarios w.r.t. vision. < 1292036319 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But dude, all the porno would become ASIAN! < 1292036326 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1292036329 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*clap clap* < 1292036484 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I have no problem looking at a computer screen for 12+ hours at a time < 1292036491 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, actually, I do go eat sometimes < 1292036509 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Coyote finally caught me < 1292036640 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Your computer doesn't feed you? Ha. < 1292038396 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I eat my keys. < 1292038409 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I's geng qui difficu o ype < 1292038414 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ge||ing < 1292038448 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I eat my cryptographic keys. < 1292038476 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's getting quite difficult to 0x8fd0113ab9c04e < 1292038568 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: i eat chips < 1292038569 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1292038571 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computer chips < 1292038573 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha! ha! < 1292038574 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha! < 1292038576 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha! < 1292038633 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beep boop < 1292039755 0 :Sasha!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay the newest uTorrent is ugly as fuck < 1292039761 0 :Sasha!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it so ugly < 1292039772 0 :Sasha!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes me feel like they are making programs for retards < 1292039790 0 :Sasha!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all big pictures and "lawl it's a search thing too" < 1292039805 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION points out that _is_ a possibility
< 1292039816 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*that that < 1292039950 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have there been any big surveys in the last couple of years about which terminal emulators people use? < 1292040007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are enough people using terminal emulators for a big survey? < 1292040027 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and/or virtual terminals < 1292040037 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically everything that can speak vt < 1292040038 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there are glider guns with odd periods, if they're constructed, the GoL scientists should see that some guns emit the 4 (what they think are distinct) while others only 1, right? < 1292040073 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you'd think < 1292040105 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not entirely sure if they'd make the right inference from that, but surely it would help < 1292040139 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that doesn't really prove anything, you could be able to make something that emit the 4 without doing it in a periodic way < 1292040158 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even something that emit precisely 3 of them... < 1292040218 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*emitted < 1292040432 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-software-2/what-is-your-favorite-terminal-emulator-442024/ < 1292040445 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lame. why does konsole have such an overwhelming number of users? < 1292040464 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People like KDE? < 1292040468 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i know the answer...default kde and all that) < 1292040475 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is aterm default on something? < 1292040487 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's with the Konsole hate? < 1292040512 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use konsole on XFCE. < 1292040513 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i found it fat, slow and ugly? < 1292040517 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :konsole is the best terminal emulator there is. < 1292040532 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has nice bindings, tab support, scrollback, ... < 1292040566 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has lots of gui stuff that mostly just got on my nerves < 1292040585 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but again: is aterm default for anyone? < 1292040592 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: It has ... almost no GUI stuff, and what little it has is all disable-able, like most KDE stuff. < 1292040789 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: perhaps it is that i am using a relatively slow computer and frequently at a very low resolution < 1292040808 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That could be an issue :P < 1292040917 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION again ponders switching his Ubuntu install to Kubuntu
< 1292041552 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : have there been any big surveys in the last couple of years about which terminal emulators people use? < 1292041556 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um it's hardly a subject of holy wars < 1292041593 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use vimterm < 1292041734 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i don't intend to start a major holy war. i just wanted to have my finger on the pulse of common preference < 1292042085 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's really irrelevant < 1292042091 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're never going to see major innovations in vt100 emulation < 1292042099 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's undeniable < 1292042104 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1292042127 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to agree with Gregor < 1292042132 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Konsole is the superior terminal emulator < 1292042147 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really get what konsole does that gnome-terminal doesn't, to be honest < 1292042168 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :urls < 1292042181 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copy-paste keyboard shortcuts < 1292042199 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: gnome-terminal does urls. < 1292042202 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and copy-paste keyboard shortcuts. < 1292042239 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: so/ < 1292042241 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*so...? < 1292042242 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hrm < 1292042252 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe some other term was running last time I used non-konsole then < 1292042257 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sort of assumed it was gnome-term < 1292042259 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably xterm ... < 1292042284 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and gnome-terminal is actually pretty darn configurable < 1292042286 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike most gnome programs :) < 1292042410 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: anyway copy-paste shortcuts are for noobs, learn to use selections < 1292042433 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: fuck them < 1292042442 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: seriously? < 1292042449 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're the only thing X does for me that I like. :) < 1292042468 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The X server has to be the biggest program I've ever seen that doesn't do anything for you." --Ken Thompson < 1292042468 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate trying to remember what the last thing I selected is < 1292042475 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that's not how you do it... < 1292042485 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you select what you want, immediately move to where you want it, and press the middle button < 1292042491 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing in-between < 1292042502 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: yes, and that last step is where I have trouble < 1292042514 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have trouble pressing the middle button? < 1292042521 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1292042525 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nothing in-between bit < 1292042548 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I hate my algebra prof < 1292042582 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second half of the course to me was roughly equivalent to taking a pull-string doll < 1292042587 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that says "polynomials" < 1292042588 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"root" < 1292042591 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"irreducible" < 1292042594 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"finite field" < 1292042597 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"irreducible" < 1292042600 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"polynomials" < 1292042687 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :galois galois galois < 1292042694 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: thankfully none of that < 1292043463 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why wouldn't the Second Law of Thermodynamics apply in GoL? Isn't it a statistical thing, rather than a physical thing? < 1292043532 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe I'm confused < 1292043623 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well for a start it's not clear that the _first_ law applies < 1292043705 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Second rely on First? < 1292043721 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems rather clear that the First law does NOT apply < 1292043740 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for the second, there is probably some way to apply the informational interpretation of it to GoL, yes. but i think that without the first law and the link between them the consequences might not be as strong < 1292043785 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, you still have free energy < 1292043791 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*"energy" < 1292043797 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can go from an active state to a dead state, but not dead to active < 1292043810 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*completely dead < 1292043850 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking that that's.. something < 1292043850 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more importantly, you cannot increase the information content < 1292043864 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether or not you have active states < 1292043868 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BRB < 1292043911 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ping < 1292044155 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ack < 1292044193 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O viously, I wore out my key < 1292044252 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the equivalent of heat in GoL? < 1292044262 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err, closest equiv < 1292044417 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea that is not essentially "looks lively" < 1292044625 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we attempt to make GoL life via evolution, we should make sure that it's absolutely full of a pattern F such that all ancestors of F contain more than one copy of F in some generation < 1292044636 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that those otherwise immortal ****s can know mortality < 1292044711 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Wow -- Brian Raiter, dissatisfied with a 45-byte program returning 42, made a 45-byte program that acts as either true or false, depending on how you invoke it. < 1292044714 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/true.asm.txt < 1292044716 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Impressive. < 1292044796 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Does it work if invoked as "/bin/true" instead of "true"? < 1292044815 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1292044819 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292044823 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It only checks one byte near the end of argv[0], so "yes". < 1292044843 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, with maybe one ancestor of F that contains 1 F, but that should be stilllifeish or something < 1292044869 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmmmm, near the end ... clever, also impressive to keep it so small. < 1292044909 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'm too much of a wimp, and have complete ELF headers in my programs. :) < 1292044915 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Albeit far smaller ones than you'd expect. < 1292044926 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahhh :P < 1292044935 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Still, 91-byte true and false ain't bad :P < 1292044939 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I even use symbolic names for the fields and values! I want my money's worth out of elf.inc, it was a bitch to write. < 1292044946 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I copied large swathes of the ELF specification in there.) < 1292044966 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, earlier, I was thinking that something similar [but less brutal [all ancestors of F contain as much F as the child]] would help foster competition and assist in the evolution of intelligent life < 1292045058 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hopefully I can manage to write cat(1) without going insane. < 1292045066 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And next, why, mount(8)! Or, er, eventually. < 1292045081 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I pride myself in being A Slightly Better-Maintained asmutils With More Naffness. < 1292045088 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(My true and false are smaller though!!) < 1292045140 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should make macros for these :P < 1292045149 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(These = standard ELF junk.) < 1292045577 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523logread: http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/intercal/os2diff.txt does this still suffice for using c-intercal on os/2? < 1292045923 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1292046606 0 :pingveno!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1292046697 0 :pingveno!~pingveno@c-98-246-133-8.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292047044 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li125-242.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292047266 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"These 16 particles [4 in each direction] cause damage to biological tissue. Fortunately, the damage is usually automatically repaired by our bodies. All 16 particles travel at the same speed." < 1292047291 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what the hell? < 1292047322 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^not an actual quote from anything < 1292047327 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: BE AFRAID < 1292047368 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just what I'm imagining as possible incorrect knowledge in GoLverse < 1292047380 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is GoL? < 1292047386 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why is it so brainhurty < 1292047389 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Game of Life < 1292047458 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because we're speculating what a completely alien form of life might think about the universe around them < 1292047478 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And said universe has very, very little in common with ours < 1292047618 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1292047627 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are more than 4 directions in Life < 1292047637 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gliders can only travel in 4 < 1292047659 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I se < 1292047665 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason, I'm obsessed with gliders < 1292047671 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What they think of gliders < 1292047718 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan suggested that if they have a universal-to-their-form-of-life UP, then they might not notice that a NW glider is the same thing as a NE glider < 1292047752 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if there's a biological ... clock thing that's a multiple of 4, the phases of a glider might be seen as distinct and unrelated particles < 1292047767 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I guess that also assumes that they move at distances that are multiples of four < 1292048098 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Coyote finally caught me < 1292048109 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li125-242.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292048604 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1292048943 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you awake/ < 1292049061 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does "Amount of blocks destroyed when deterministically placed all at a certain distance from live cells after X amount of time" sound as a definition of heat/ < 1292049125 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, 'deterministically placed' would need to be replaced with an algorihm, I mean < 1292049131 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that's something to measure, at least < 1292049165 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funky IETF working group names: 6lowpan, multimob, softwire, dime, grow, bliss, drinks, martini, mmusic, salud, splices, forces, dane, emu, hokey, kitten, ledbat and storm. < 1292049289 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blinkers shouldn't be considered to have heat, should they? (Given any distance above um, a very small number, used in the definition, they don't) < 1292049337 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, then, a sufficiently dense immobile object doesn't have heat, even if there's a lot of internal activity :/ < 1292049357 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :External heat? < 1292049370 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it's certainly not causing things around it to move, seeing as it's immobile < 1292049394 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, immobile and not giving stuff off < 1292049400 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way to measure it is only going to be an approximation, anyhow, while waiting for their scientists to develop a deeper understanding < 1292049479 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just to clarify: Deeper than us? Or are we trying to think of what THEY'd use as a definition? I was being selfish < 1292049498 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I'm sure they would have a deeper than us understanding of larger scale stuff < 1292049501 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well both < 1292050747 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What could we do to attempt to identify life? Intelligent life/ < 1292050844 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...also raising a question, what if WE are in a simulation, and our watchers have limited means to identify intelligent life? < 1292050855 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should we do something that might be recognizable somehow? < 1292051122 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Anyway, good night < 1292052939 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@k-224.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1292053755 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1292054399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1292054400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1292056799 0 :andywang!~andywang@121.33.227.2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292056838 0 :andywang!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1292056942 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1292056997 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1292057289 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@k-224.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1292058129 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1292058203 0 :nopseudoidea!~nopseudoi@85-168-235-235.rev.numericable.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1292058221 0 :nopseudoidea!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1292058334 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-15-236.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292061226 0 :Macstheyjustsuck!~Cyrus@76.247.98.91 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292061257 0 :Macstheyjustsuck!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1292061517 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc12-sgyl29-2-0-cust185.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292063192 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1292064240 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@78.104.81.221 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292064812 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292065748 0 :Georgey!~Kalleos@host10.natpool.mwn.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1292065765 0 :Georgey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1292068133 0 :ishagua!~ishagua@117.136.9.242 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292068152 0 :ishagua!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1292069055 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MoveCraft empties chests when used. How irksome. < 1292069559 0 :kfdsfdsafdsaf!~user@59.34.3.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292069656 0 :kfdsfdsafdsaf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1292070355 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1292070361 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292070997 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it has a 1000 block limit. "$£%"£$%^ < 1292071036 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A changeable limit, but I suspect the ROU will slow things horrifically. I give up. < 1292073830 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: ping <-- pong < 1292073864 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : he dilutes the usage of → to a hideous degree. <-- well in that case I had planned to go to bed before, but then forgot it < 1292073869 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it was exactly 2 times < 1292075281 0 :ppseeker!~ppseeker@221.212.116.34 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292075342 0 :ppseeker!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~ < 1292075869 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it only me who thinks that the lambda calculus page on WP should use $tags\; around\; expressions\; rather\; than$? < 1292075939 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: no < 1292075944 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but luckily, WP is a W < 1292075946 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not merely a P < 1292075968 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but doing things like that will tend to bring down the screaming hoardes of bureaucrats. < 1292076029 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it wont < 1292076041 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there's only one way to find out! < 1292076062 0 :wareya_!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292076159 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Urgh, the tags aren't even ; they're . < 1292076242 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1292076284 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Previewing this will be fun... < 1292076440 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the LaTeX macro thingy for ↦? < 1292076494 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, \mapsto < 1292076842 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if it's justifiable to be annoyed at people calling the lambda calculus "code".
< 1292076981 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, forget it. That page is beyond easy repair. < 1292076985 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: depends. do you think LC is a programming language? < 1292076989 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooo dont stop! < 1292076996 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I MUST < 1292077031 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, I'm trying to convert horrific HTML formatting into nice LaTeX formatting on a huge article with lots of the former. < 1292077048 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like a job for a script! < 1292077086 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can fix the various lexing errors etc., but spacing &stupidhtmlentities; have sapped my resolve. < 1292077248 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I suck at scripting things. < 1292078215 0 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1292078808 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1292078833 0 :augur!~augur@208.58.6.161 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292079105 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1292079437 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[ Many programmers have created and promoted the computer programming language known as "open source code" to be shared on public sites at no cost, but licensing issues are murky.]] — Reuters. < 1292079460 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I shall make this language, and write an absurdly incomprehensible licence for it. < 1292079789 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292079811 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1292079843 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :journalists are extremely ignorant in all fields < 1292080091 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except journalism, naturally. < 1292080102 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is not a particularly high endorsement. < 1292080117 0 :jack!~jack@host-150-203.consiagnet.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1292080134 0 :jack!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Jackoz < 1292081521 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is tempted to add ""Goths don't do anything bad in the UK," I say "They're a gentle and essentially middle-class subculture."" to the head of TV Tropes' article on goths.
< 1292081635 0 :augur!~augur@129.2.129.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1292082564 0 :Jackoz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Jackoz < 1292082590 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1292082789 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1292083585 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1292083718 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:32:45 Funky IETF working group names: 6lowpan, multimob, softwire, dime, grow, bliss, drinks, martini, mmusic, salud, splices, forces, dane, emu, hokey, kitten, ledbat and storm. < 1292083721 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: wat :D < 1292083752 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And out of those, dane was IIRC annouced less than 48 hours ago... < 1292083767 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:00:44 ...also raising a question, what if WE are in a simulation, and our watchers have limited means to identify intelligent life? < 1292083768 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:00:55 Should we do something that might be recognizable somehow? < 1292083782 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no reason to believe they could recognise our actions at all. < 1292083789 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is also no reason to believe that they *want* sentient life. < 1292083864 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: ping2 < 1292083896 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun fact: The orignal name for 'dane' was rejected for being too similar to 'kitten' (which is existing working group). < 1292084011 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: do the names have any meaning? :P < 1292084075 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the formatting in the WP article on the lambda calculus is awful. < 1292084080 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I'm fixing it now. < 1292084093 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fully expect to get reverted for daring to be an anonymous IP and making such a sweeping change of evil. < 1292084110 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your soul must be greatly uncompressible. < 1292084115 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[The [[identity function]] $I(x)\; =\; x$ takes a single input, ''x'', and immediately returns ''x'']] < 1292084117 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahaahahaha. < 1292084120 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how they phrase it imperatively. < 1292084124 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But no, I am here to fix formatting alone. < 1292084154 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of apparently acronyms... < 1292084169 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that section is not for the intelligent. It is for the kind of idiot who thinks of everything imperatively. < 1292084275 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No doubt choosen for amusement potential... < 1292084315 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Amusingly, this actually looks uglier with the default math formatting (do it in HTML for simple stuff). < 1292084316 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH WELL! < 1292084470 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, use some terrible hack to force it into formatting with TeX always! < 1292084477 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No :P < 1292084566 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: If this gets reverted I'll replace the λ-calculus article on Esolang (pretty sure we have one) with a merger of it and my revision of the Wikipedia page. < 1292084587 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : x[x := N] ≡ N < 1292084587 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : y[x := N] ≡ y, if x ≠ y < 1292084587 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (M1 M2)[x := N] ≡ (M1[x := N]) (M2[x := N]) < 1292084587 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (λy.M)[x := N] ≡ λy.(M[x := N]), if x ≠ y and y ∉ FV(N) < 1292084592 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ Only a shithead does that with monospaced text. < 1292084601 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, we do not have the MW TeX thing on the esolang wiki. < 1292084618 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Well, I can prerender stuff. Or beg Graue for it. < 1292084619 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I asked graue, and he said it was effectively impossible with his hosting setup. < 1292084642 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given two arguments, we have:
< 1292084642 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((x, y) ↦ x*x + y*y)(5, 2)
< 1292084642 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : = 5*5 + 2*2 = 29.
< 1292084642 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, using currying, we have:
< 1292084644 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thou art fucking with me. < 1292084676 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I'll do something or other, then. < 1292084690 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rutian is still alive. < 1292084694 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all these years. < 1292084696 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it has an IP. < 1292084703 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could put something on there. :p < 1292084780 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what'd be funny? If the article had originally been done with LaTeX and some moronic bureaucracy had led to it being HTMLed. < 1292084832 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rutian? < 1292084900 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Rutian is the server of yore. < 1292084908 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Born out of the ESO standards agency. < 1292084915 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Used for miscellaneous crap for three years or so. < 1292084920 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, two, it's beend ormant lately. < 1292084954 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, was out gathering wood in the middle of nowhere. Found a lone obsidian block, no water or lava near. < 1292084960 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, halfway up a mountain < 1292084967 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: DUN DUN DUUUUN < 1292084980 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what genre are we talking about? < 1292084987 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what? < 1292085004 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh I thought that was supposed to be scary music < 1292085019 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It was just your standard moving DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUUUUN. < 1292085028 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g9WjcGdxuM < 1292085069 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah, so not the music when the protagonist is carefully walking forward and you just *know* something will happen at any moment < 1292085084 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing was the lone obsidian. < 1292085119 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm. will watch in a sec < 1292085148 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Failed to parse (unknown function\begin): \begin{align*} ((x, y) \mapsto x*x + y*y)(5, 2) \\ &= 5*5 + 2*2 = 29. \end{align*} < 1292085152 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: NO SOUP FOR YOU < 1292085162 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that video says "not available in your area" < 1292085166 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so what is it < 1292085168 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: What X-D < 1292085172 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's just the DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN. < 1292085172 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, indeed < 1292085188 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, huh, it works when refreshing page < 1292085218 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah, that sound. Is it a stock one or? < 1292085304 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Presumably. < 1292085306 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1292085313 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or else constantly reproduced perfectly. < 1292085341 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION forces Firefox to look at clog logs in utf8
< 1292085351 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: anyway what i was pinging you for is this http://code.google.com/p/loper/source/browse/trunk/crap/example/oiuboot.asm?r=93 < 1292085360 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: an example of super-simple sorta-orthogonal persistence < 1292085385 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, too tired to read asm < 1292085385 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: specifically, whenever it gets a page fault, it loads that address from disk into RAM and pages it into the virtual address, then returns < 1292085403 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: and it doesn't even load the kernel itself; it just sets up the page fault handler, and jumps into unloaded memory < 1292085413 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the page fault handler then pages it in from disk, and the jump succeeds < 1292085418 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1292085425 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what makes sure stuff gets written to disk then? < 1292085436 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It wasn't developed that far. :) < 1292085457 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's the oiu system from memetech.com which is *still* down. < 1292085462 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The cap system got more development... < 1292085702 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Should I switch to sid to get Firefox 3.6? < 1292085718 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT, it's still 3.5 in sid. < 1292085722 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.6 is only in experimental. < 1292085730 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck this, I'm installing the experimental package manualla. < 1292085732 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*manually. < 1292085790 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :manuel, the package from barcelona < 1292085855 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, did you give up on the LC rewrite? < 1292085949 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Not yet. < 1292086000 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~$ sudo dpkg -i iceweasel_3.6.13-1_amd64.deb < 1292086004 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bring on the instability! < 1292086008 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : iceweasel depends on xulrunner-1.9.2 (>= 1.9.2.11); however: < 1292086009 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Package xulrunner-1.9.2 is not installed. < 1292086009 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOZL < 1292086210 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need: libmozjs3d, iceweasel-l10n-en-gb < 1292086446 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of tex articles being redone in html, is there a good tool for converting a tex file to an html file (getting as close an approximation to the formatting as html allows)? < 1292086571 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, there are tools but they all suck at it and i'll kill you if you use them because they're that bad. < 1292086589 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn < 1292086591 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may want to look into mathjax (jsMath's successor) if you're willing to do some manual work. < 1292086598 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you pelase write me one that doesn't suck? < 1292086609 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it is basically impossible < 1292086614 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :html doesn't work like that < 1292086625 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't care about the math. i just want to preserve the non-math formatting < 1292086660 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, where text and images are located, and laying out of bibliography, and anchoring citations < 1292086681 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not gonna happen. html doesn't work like that unless you force it to, and doing it from tex would just be near-impossible. < 1292086694 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's one that's OK. < 1292086697 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One sec. < 1292086699 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know a lot of it could be done approximately < 1292086768 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm willing to tolerate a lot of differences since they are fundamentally different paradigms < 1292086769 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: http://www.tug.org/applications/tex4ht/ <-- good part: Works well. Bad part: Original creator is dead. < 1292086779 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1292086821 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: so the continued development isn't as good as the original development? < 1292086846 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not that it's not as good so much as that it's slowed to a crawl. < 1292086909 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, if you have something that you want to convert to an HTML page that looks like it came from LaTeX but isn't just a PDF barfed into a web browser (e.g. a language spec), it's pretty good. < 1292086937 0 :Goosey!~goose124@99-60-156-25.lightspeed.elpstx.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292086973 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1292086993 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there some papers on implementing UNIX-like systems? < 1292087017 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: Literally every advanced OS textbook in history? :P < 1292087076 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Unix counts as advanced nowadays? Fuck. < 1292087095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, the OS designed to be as simple as possible to implement and get working and be practical. < 1292087102 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a multi-user, networked environment. < 1292087118 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: By "advanced" I mean "it covers topics lower than shells", not "it covers research in OS design" < 1292087137 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: There are OS design textbooks which... cover just shells? And not kernels? < 1292087140 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you being serious? < 1292087147 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slight exaggeration :P < 1292087157 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: ^_________________^ < 1292087161 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point is there are definitely OS textbooks you could read cover-to-cover without being able to write an OS. < 1292087170 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Indeed... < 1292087176 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/being able to/learning to/ < 1292087200 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how big my fonts are and how beige my background is! I'm OLD now! < 1292087284 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1292087404 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how goes the LaTeXification of WP? < 1292087422 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Oh stop bugging me. < 1292087688 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wtf is up with cat. < 1292088300 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1292088350 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292088427 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how should we know? < 1292088434 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :magic < 1292089270 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, read MC Experiment day 12 yet? < 1292089306 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I haven't read since ... I forget. Link me to the first < 1292089347 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.pcgamer.com/author/pentadact/ < 1292089356 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look back until you find the one you haven't read. < 1292089404 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, it goes to beta in 9 days. < 1292089486 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m swept violently over the threshold, flung clear of the falling water, and left mid-air, sickeningly high over dry land. My only hope is if the water somehow hits the ground before me, spreads out into some kind of pool and… < 1292089487 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn’t. < 1292089487 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A fountain of metal, stone, sand, torches and sticks explodes from me as I hit the ground, and the last thing I see in front of my dying face is the egg, still intact. < 1292089505 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Beta? With all the shitty bugs? < 1292089558 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume he's working like hell to ruin^W fix it. < 1292090122 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=571 < 1292090134 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel quite intensely nerdy for getting that reference. < 1292090569 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://i.imgur.com/asrO9.jpg XD < 1292090577 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1292090688 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oh my God. < 1292090688 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. That should be enough. < 1292090688 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On Monday: turns out it’s not enough." < 1292090692 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: http://i.imgur.com/LZZJx.gif < 1292090709 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: what < 1292090719 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Ha, the price is going up to 15 euros in beta. < 1292090725 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More bugs cost more! < 1292090778 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I still prefer his GCII playthroughs by a small margin, though. < 1292090786 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Tom Francis', that is.) < 1292090798 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I haven't played GCII, so I probably wouldn't. < 1292090805 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, nor have I. < 1292090812 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not written for people who have. < 1292090821 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: OK, rephrase: I don't really like games like that. < 1292090839 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor I. < 1292090851 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Oh fine, link me then. < 1292090857 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I like the Minecraft ones partly because I know how silly he's being. < 1292090908 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=161570&site=pcg < 1292090942 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone buy me a fast computer so i can play minecraft < 1292090959 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: what? < 1292090975 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I play it on a 1.3 GHz Core 2 Duo laptop running at 1.2 GHz with an onboard Intel GPU < 1292090985 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on Linux, no less, where the graphics performance isn't exactly stellar < 1292090996 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: rendering distance to short, graphics to fast, problem solved < 1292091009 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1292091038 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it always ran ridiculously slow for me. i'll see about the settings. < 1292091053 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia, and my mid-to-low end laptop runs it fine on normal rendering distance and fancy graphics. < 1292091056 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Sometimes it does and you just have to restart it. You're not playing in-browser, right? < 1292091096 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: don't think so. haven't played in-browser since the very first demo. < 1292091099 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it ran okay then. < 1292091111 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Sun JRE or? < 1292091115 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're not on Linux I can't even remotely help. < 1292091125 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: My laptop is actually on the high end of mid end; it's very sturdy, thin and lightweight, and has a long battery life; it's just that long battery life, lightweight and super-fast CPU don't really mix. :p < 1292091128 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's actually pretty snappy. < 1292091135 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a modification of sun jvm i think < 1292091151 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, depends on how you define "end", then. < 1292091180 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Price-wise, ignoring things that are stupidly overpriced because of a brand name (*cough* Sony *cough*) < 1292091184 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: what? you mean icedtea? < 1292091190 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't a modification, that's a backport of openjdk to run java 6 < 1292091202 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: uninstall the other javas and install the sun-java6-* packages on debian < 1292091300 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure that's my default (or something close enough to it not to make a difference) < 1292091324 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: no, in fact, the difference /does/ matter < 1292091330 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :openjdk, icedtea, etc. don't work or don't work as well < 1292091370 0 :quintopia!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i'm talking about an experimental build that doesn't actually change the performance of sun's build at all < 1292091431 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: well, suit yourself < 1292091653 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[So I did what I always do when I can't do anything good: I did something stupid.]] < 1292091664 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's something unspeakably profound about that quote. < 1292091780 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Link me to the playthrough of GCII? < 1292091804 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=161570&site=pcg < 1292091960 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's another one where he takes over the next size of galaxy through peaceful means. < 1292091968 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, *"peaceful" < 1292092239 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: "Final Entry"? < 1292092241 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't look final to me. < 1292092246 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also that site's font rendering is fucked up and hideous. < 1292092250 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Or rather: Where's First Entry. < 1292092457 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it must have been updated in place. < 1292092467 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Greaaaat. And on a hideous site too. < 1292092471 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The diary starts at Day 1 on that page. < 1292092477 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is rather, isn't it? < 1292092494 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Especially since it fucks up Firefox's font rendering for me. I think I'll skip that playthrough for now. :p < 1292092508 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(computerandvideogames.com <-- what kind of domain name is that) < 1292092521 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a thing that guts horrible rendering on webpages and makes them vaguely readable, if that helps. < 1292092555 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also guts the screencaps, but that's a minor loss and you can use the popup thing if you're that desparate. < 1292092560 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*desperate. < 1292092595 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I know, I know, Readability, yes. < 1292092596 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like it. < 1292092602 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can never get it looking nicely. < 1292092626 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not? < 1292092655 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To force the formula to render as PNG, add \, (small space) at the end of the formula (where it is not rendered). This will force PNG if the user is in "HTML if simple" mode, but not for "HTML if possible" mode (math rendering settings in preferences). < 1292092656 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha. < 1292092668 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I'm fussy. < 1292092704 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, default layout or Readibility layout. Guess which is palatable? < 1292092715 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Shaddap. < 1292092913 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, still in there? < 1292092931 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so can we expect Nicely Formatted Lambda Calculus soon? < 1292092999 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes. < 1292093000 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, if you want me to show you the way out, that happens now, not in half a minute < 1292093000 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Maybe. < 1292093012 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You're really irritating when you bug people. :p < 1292093023 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, guess not then < 1292093039 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, FEAR MY BUGGINESS. < 1292093522 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phantom_Hoover: Especially since it fucks up Firefox's font rendering for me. I think I'll skip that playthrough for now. :p ← what rendering would that be? < 1292093527 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/c/b/4/cb4c22a5b26892bebcca85d168d98566.png < 1292093530 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Whoops! < 1292093535 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathisavariable < 1292093542 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1292094047 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Sheesh, WP's LC raticle is just terrible. < 1292094076 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tempted to write a treatment that doesn't both assume its readers are stupid and also use non-obvious mathematical terminology in the same sentence. < 1292094077 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*article < 1292094132 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that is the problem with WP as a reference source... < 1292094159 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A basic form of equivalence, definable on lambda terms, is alpha equivalence. This states that the particular choice of bound variable, in a lambda abstraction, doesn't (usually) matter. For instance, λx.x and λy.y are alpha-equivalent lambda terms, representing the same identity function. Note that the terms x and y aren't alpha-equivalent, because they are not bound in a lambda abstraction. In many presentations, it is usual to identify alpha < 1292094160 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-equivalent lambda terms. < 1292094163 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"doesn't (usually) matter" < 1292094165 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Real fucking helpful there. < 1292094221 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Prediction: Being an IP, I'm going to get auto-reverted by a bot for making too many changes, left a threatening anti-vandalism message by it on my talk page, and will then have to contact the owner of the bot to stop it re-reverting if I do, at which point my edit will be reverted because fuck you. < 1292094224 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by a human) < 1292094236 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1292094271 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll help in that case; I have a probably-autoconfirmed account handy. < 1292094290 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Undoubtedly a sockpuppet of me! < 1292094300 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, Google Code redesigned and it's now harder to read and get information. < 1292094310 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More cluttered too. < 1292094312 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1292094316 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A 2-year-old sockpuppet? < 1292094407 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes! Sinister. < 1292094441 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/ < 1292094455 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shivers at the pure unadulterated awfulness of the design.
< 1292094651 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Why are you even visiting those poseurs? http://adamcadre.ac/lyttle.html < 1292094669 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Congratulations, you won the Bulwer-Lytton -- you can write long sentences! Fuckfaces. < 1292094674 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, stumbled there from TV Tropes. < 1292094687 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: (Presumably you already know of the Lytton Lytton, though.) < 1292094693 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If not, READ ALL THE RESULTS NOW AND LAUGH) < 1292094718 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I've seen it. < 1292094858 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: FWIW, I'm up to "Beta reduction" in the informal description. < 1292094873 0 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1292095029 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:55:22 http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=571 < 1292095030 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:55:34 I feel quite intensely nerdy for getting that reference. < 1292095031 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231050026.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1292095082 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey i got it too, but i consider sandman to be on my _less_ nerdy side... :D < 1292095138 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this may just be a further sign of my madness, i guess < 1292095405 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you know the two "famous" LC encodings of data types, Church and Mogensen-Scott? < 1292095424 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually no. at least not the latter. < 1292095430 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mogensen%E2%80%93Scott_encoding < 1292095612 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok the scott encoding looks like the one i consider "obvious" < 1292095670 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: presumably you know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_encoding :p < 1292095683 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which ofc applies to more than just naturals < 1292095727 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: anyway (as actually mentioned in that article at the bottom) i've been wondering about an encoding based on the induction combinator for a function... i.e. right fold < 1292095730 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm for a data type < 1292095733 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1292095735 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nil f g = f < 1292095735 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons x xs f g = g x (xs f g) < 1292095737 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then we can define foldr < 1292095739 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foldr f z xs = xs z f < 1292095740 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::: < 1292095740 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foldr f z {nil} = z < 1292095740 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foldr f z {cons x xs} = f x (xs z f) < 1292095740 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::: < 1292095742 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foldr f z {nil} = z < 1292095744 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foldr f z {cons x xs} = f x (foldr f z xs) < 1292095761 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the first :: there is expanding out the call tot he list, and the second one is replacing foldr's RHS (xs z f) with a call to foldr itself < 1292095764 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, wait, the Church encoding isn't the obvious one for you? < 1292095778 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: mogensen-scott is pretty obvious for non-numeral-and-list types < 1292095785 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and I'm just wondering how well this would work in general < 1292095797 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hm you can define foldl with foldr right? (ignore efficiency right now :)) < 1292095799 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget how < 1292095800 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah, you meant in general. < 1292095806 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: not what is listed as church encoding on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mogensen%E2%80%93Scott_encoding page < 1292095836 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the boolean and pair examples on the Church encoding page are indeed what i'd consider obvious < 1292095843 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, indeed. < 1292095857 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: how do you do that again? :p < 1292095915 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact i'm wondering if that first page might have it wrong then? < 1292095953 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true = \t f -> t, false = \t f -> f < 1292095972 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons x y = \f -> f x y < 1292095987 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be so, now tell me how to define foldl with foldr :p < 1292095992 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or i'll ASK #HASKELL < 1292095999 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh _that_ < 1292096060 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is suddenly very hungry
< 1292096065 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, so Mogensen-Scott for the unary naturals would be... 0 = \ c1 c2 -> c1, S = \ n c1 c2 -> c2 n? < 1292096068 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you'd better as #haskell then < 1292096074 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ask < 1292096080 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :food -> < 1292096100 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really need to find a better reference for the LC than WP... < 1292096205 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: < 1292096205 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myFoldl f z xs = foldr step id xs z < 1292096205 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : where step x g a = g (f a x) < 1292096211 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks RWH, that was so real-world of you :P < 1292096385 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what do you seek to do? < 1292096415 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I'm playing with this data encoding to figure out if it's a good representation of data. < 1292096430 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: The Reduceron, for instance, represents data as functions, and doesn't use this encoding AFAIK. < 1292096450 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they have notes writing about how their automatic CPU-level inlining optimisations and the like help inline data structures right into the code so that stuff is efficient. < 1292096457 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering if this foldl expands to the "efficient" implementation. < 1292096513 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get this steadily growing feeling that a Lazy K implementation in Haskell would be a good idea... < 1292096544 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, I made a mistake. < 1292096550 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Enjoy your possible space leak. :p < 1292096554 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: But yeah, it would make things easier. < 1292096572 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it can't be worse than the one in the existing (C++) implementation. < 1292096578 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1292096587 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Lazy K is kinda rubbish, though; it's SKI calculus plus gimmick. :p < 1292096622 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, it's SKI calculus + normal functional IO mechanism. < 1292096642 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Plus syntax gimmick. < 1292096767 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still ponder the sanity of someone who thinks "SKI calculus implementation? C++ is the perfect language!". < 1292097018 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foldl fl zl {cons xv xsv} = (\xq gq aq -> gq (fl aq xq)) xv (xsv (\xi -> xi) (\xq gq aq -> gq (fl aq xq))) zl < 1292097019 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is going well < 1292097098 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The worst part is that you cannot pronounce any of those names. < 1292097134 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I've renamed them to disambiguate :P < 1292097189 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: What I need is a program to let me do valid manipulations on lambda expressions manually, handling alpha conversion etc. itself. < 1292097198 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I can simplify these things step by step without making stupid mistakes. < 1292097224 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you mean handling code as code rather than text? < 1292097288 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1292097306 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES! < 1292097310 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simplified < 1292097311 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foldl fl zl xsl = foldr (\xq gq aq -> gq (fl aq xq)) (\xi -> xi) xsl zl < 1292097311 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to < 1292097313 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foldl f z {nil} = z < 1292097313 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foldl f z {cons x xs} = foldl f (f z x) xs < 1292097342 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I'm saying is: The right-fold data structure representation supports foldl perfectly well. < 1292097346 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(With a sufficiently smart CPU :P) < 1292097642 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I am not sure how this works with mutually-recursive data types and the like :( < 1292097719 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I guess I'll just go with the induction schemes. < 1292097808 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"TIL That Linus Torvalds also created Git, so much cooler now" < 1292097811 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck you /r/programming. < 1292097814 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to Slashdot. < 1292097938 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, zuh? < 1292097979 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: That's on /r/programming's front page. < 1292097991 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has finally ceased to be worthwhile even in the slightest. < 1292098067 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, "What do Java developers think of Scala?" I sense the invisible hand of Sgeo! < 1292098101 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember when git was low-level and you had to use cogito to get anything done. < 1292098367 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're OLD < 1292098391 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Dude, it was 2006 :P < 1292098412 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OLD < 1292098432 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back then I could write Hello World in Pascal and that was IT! < 1292098682 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tree_rec = < 1292098682 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun (T : Type) (P : Tree T -> Set) => Tree_rect T P < 1292098682 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : : forall (T : Type) (P : Tree T -> Set), < 1292098682 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (forall t : T, P (Leaf T t)) -> < 1292098682 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (forall t : Tree T, < 1292098845 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coqing, then? < 1292098871 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: No, I was just trying to get a tree's recursive induction scheme. < 1292098876 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since Coq is :oohdependent:, it hasn't helped much. < 1292098934 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the whole rec and rect thing. < 1292099043 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Leaf x f g = f x < 1292099043 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Branch x y f g = g (x f g) (y f g) < 1292099045 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beautiful < 1292099096 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mapTree f t = foldTree f Branch < 1292099106 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wundervoll! < 1292099122 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm actaully < 1292099123 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mapTree f t = foldTree f Branch t < 1292099130 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*actually < 1292099150 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wait < 1292099154 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mapTree f t = foldTree (Leaf . f) Branch t < 1292099208 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mapTree f {Leaf x} = Leaf (f x) < 1292099209 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mapTree f {Branch x y} = Branch (mapTree f x) (mapTree f y) < 1292099210 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mission accomplished < 1292099471 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : map f {nil} = nil < 1292099471 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : map f {cons x xs} = cons (f x) (map f xs) < 1292099476 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: these things really expand properly! < 1292099478 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is awesome < 1292100039 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Have you looked at the Reduceron? < 1292100043 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may restore your faith in electrons. < 1292100048 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/ < 1292100054 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The memos are great. < 1292100070 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: tl;dr purely functional, lazy graph rewriting on an FPGA. < 1292100081 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IO? < 1292100089 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :electrons, traitorous little schemers < 1292100091 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it does have IO of some kind. < 1292100094 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it has O. Dunno about I. < 1292100103 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's irrelevant though, just gawp at the amazingness and read the lovely memos. < 1292100882 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Oops, I just realised my tree structure was (Leaf X | Branch Tree Tree), which is rather useless. < 1292100894 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be (Leaf | Branch X Tree Tree). < 1292101158 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mapTree f {Leaf} = Leaf < 1292101158 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mapTree f {Branch x t1 t2} = Branch (f x) (mapTree f t1) (mapTree f t2) < 1292101160 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w00tz. < 1292101535 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, idea: redstone message bus (think CAN) < 1292101552 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, doable or not? < 1292101562 0 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-d932927c.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292101568 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well presumably doable considering the CPU < 1292101573 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... feasible? < 1292101582 0 :hagb4rd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi@all < 1292101597 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1292101674 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Maybe. < 1292101679 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEgo: hi. < 1292101709 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote i didn't like jquery, until i decided to use it because it made development faster. now i can't go back to women... < 1292101727 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :241) i didn't like jquery, until i decided to use it because it made development faster. now i can't go back to women... < 1292101837 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hagb4rd: "hi@all" isn't likely to elicit much of a reaction, except for elliott mistabbing you :P < 1292101859 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 241) i didn't like jquery, until i decided to use it because it made development faster. now i can't go back to women... < 1292101859 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1292101870 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastequotes < 1292101873 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28706 < 1292101880 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I can't believe my new quote system isn't 17x as efficient as the old one :P < 1292101887 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your bot spends SO MUCH TIME doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING OF VALUE X-D < 1292101943 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :231) Wow, that [ ! "$1" ] actually works. < 1292101946 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is that even in the database. < 1292101948 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`delquote 231 < 1292101961 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*poof* < 1292102088 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote ONLY GOOD QUOTES PLEASE! AND NO FAKE ONES EITHER! < 1292102089 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :241) ONLY GOOD QUOTES PLEASE! AND NO FAKE ONES EITHER! < 1292102107 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOLY CRAP MY PARENTS ARE WATCHING SELTZER AND FRIEDBERG AND LAUGHING I'M GOING TO UNIVERSITY NOW AND NEVER COMING BACK < 1292102132 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE THAT IS THIS ONE: The mother of my children is a goat! < 1292102144 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ;__; < 1292102209 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, AAAAAAAAAAAA ALL MY GENES ARE THEIRS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA < 1292102245 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I need a fuse-hg. < 1292102251 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Don't worry! It is theoretically possible that every single gene you have mutated! < 1292102257 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could share NO genes with them! < 1292102260 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SCIENCE < 1292102261 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yesyesyesyesyesyes < 1292102261 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hg clone-ing a large repository is (sometimes) quite slow >_> < 1292102267 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :242) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE THAT IS THIS ONE: The mother of my children is a goat! < 1292102268 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least, inconsistent-speed. < 1292102285 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Is "fuse-hg" meant to be something more interesting than a FUSE interface to hg? < 1292102498 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: y/n? < 1292102520 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 129 < 1292102523 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :129) if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect ^ I learned that trick from atheists < 1292102536 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, the good old days. < 1292102577 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's vaguely irritating that fax was an interesting cool person and an utterly insane psycho in one < 1292102803 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmph, what's foldl on a tree.. < 1292102852 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i'm not sure that makes sense < 1292102857 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foldl . toList < 1292102871 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: me neither, but i *want* it to make sense :) < 1292102876 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: bad Deewiant *slaps* < 1292102895 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- foldlTree f z Leaf = z < 1292102895 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- foldlTree f z (Branch x t1 t2) = foldlTree (f (foldlTree f z t1) x) t2 < 1292102896 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It typically is that < 1292102898 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i think that *sort* of works < 1292102908 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes < 1292102912 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean a tree is basically a way to correct for a list's biased direction-ness... < 1292102919 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so really there's foldlTreeLeft and foldlTreeRight < 1292102921 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you get my meaning < 1292102927 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you just swap t1 and t2 there < 1292102931 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: hm? were you saying yes to my definition? < 1292102968 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that for a list, a foldl is equivalent to a foldr of the reversed list < 1292102979 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: To fuse-hg :P < 1292103010 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however if you reverse/mirror a tree, you still use the same fold < 1292103012 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: What would it be, then? (Suggest rename to hg-fuse, for consistency.) < 1292103013 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Basically, I want to be able to fuse-mount a particular revision, then when I unmount it commits a new revision with my changes. < 1292103021 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with tweaked parameters) < 1292103022 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right. < 1292103027 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Oh, so "no" then. < 1292103042 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I was saying: is it more interesting than FUSE? As in: did you mean "fuse" the verb? < 1292103046 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in fuse two hg repositories together in some way? < 1292103048 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be interesting. < 1292103054 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh :P < 1292103152 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: give me a tree operation other than fold and map, then :P < 1292103166 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: monad operations! < 1292103167 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to write in terms of foldr and expand back < 1292103175 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh gawd -- what are they on trees? < 1292103206 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well return x is just Branch x Leaf Leaf i think < 1292103232 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'm doing this because I'm fairly sure that representing structures as their right fold (i.e. their induction-recursion combinator) is the best representation in LC; it's easy to convert pattern matching into it, and when inlining and expanding functions defined with the combinators, they tend to unroll to the obvious, efficient "direct" implementation < 1292103449 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i'm not sure about monad operations on trees when the x'es are embedded straight into Branch rather than Leaf < 1292103510 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: eh? (Leaf X | Branch Tree Tree) you mean as the alternative? < 1292103513 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what should join (Branch (Branch x t1 t2) t3 t4) be < 1292103517 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had that at first, but then realised it doesn't model actual trees < 1292103519 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean < 1292103524 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Leaf X | Branch X Tree Tree)? < 1292103543 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former has an obvious monad instance, at least < 1292103562 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter may not actually help in that respect < 1292103577 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gyaaah, where's pikhq when you need him and his multimedia nerdery. < 1292103668 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I have some of it. < 1292103676 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: erm but how do you model an "actual" tree with the former? < 1292103684 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION just goes for the torrent with the most peers.
< 1292103751 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: oh forget that < 1292103762 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what :D < 1292103767 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but then it's hardly a tree structure, is it? < 1292103770 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't work < 1292103771 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh or do you mean, forget what i said < 1292103774 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: no, I can help < 1292103775 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1292103785 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: pretend i'm pikhq, i'm as much an encoding nerd as he is :) < 1292103786 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, close < 1292103806 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott is in fact pikhq converted to big5 < 1292103809 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, http://torrentz.eu/search?f=futurama+season+3 < 1292103816 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait, that's the wrong way around < 1292103820 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(obviously) < 1292103832 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pick one or find a better one. < 1292103841 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I have an idea how to make that "clear" one work. Involves one SR-latch and two buttons < 1292103861 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://torrentz.com/7f97cf9ea5ff10a01b56789c85ce32e3c8a24674 This is the best one out of the first few. < 1292103873 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: 11 seeders, 10 peers. Should go quickly enough. < 1292103900 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: There is a preferable 8 gig Matroska rip, but it is seederless. < 1292103904 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So go with that one. < 1292103931 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, define "quickly enough". < 1292103939 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I shall compare it with actual results. < 1292103942 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You can't tell without downloading. < 1292103963 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It depends on your connection, everyone else's connection, general swarm health... Start the torrent, add the trackers from torrentz, and give it some minutes to get going. < 1292103968 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I mean in the sense of "what would be the kind of order of magnitude you'd expect"? < 1292103988 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: A few hours if stuff is good. < 1292104009 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 peer. < 1292104014 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stuff is not good. < 1292104035 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 peer *listed*, not connected. < 1292104044 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Did you add the trackers? < 1292104050 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you *wait* because this stuff takes time to propagate? < 1292104052 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1292104066 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There were 4, and one of them was already there. < 1292104066 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: No you didn't. < 1292104068 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait a few minutes. < 1292104072 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Wait. < 1292104077 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You did add them with a blank line in between, yes? < 1292104084 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1292104098 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Give it some minutes. < 1292104118 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I am looking at the tracker list right now and two of them have 1 peer listed each. < 1292104170 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: OK, I realise you don't get how BitTorrent works, but stop looking at it and go back in five minutes. < 1292104172 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously. < 1292104203 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take your point. It's up to 29. < 1292104363 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THERE IS EGG ON MY FACE < 1292104390 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so wait what's the preferable tree structure again :D < 1292104397 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU NEED TO IMPROVE YOUR COOKING SKILLS < 1292104425 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: nothing wrong with your original, is there < 1292104436 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you mean Tree = Leaf | Branch X Tree Tree? < 1292104441 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1292104445 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right, so what's join :D < 1292104464 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DON'T KNOW < 1292104476 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it even is a monad < 1292104491 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: now i need to find the monad laws as phrased for join :p < 1292104497 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION googles
< 1292104511 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: now i need a winning lottery ticket < 1292104516 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if it worked once, it's worth trying again!) < 1292104683 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: join . return == id < 1292104684 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :join . fmap return == id < 1292104684 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :join . join == join . fmap join < 1292104700 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wait do you need fmap to do a monad? doesn't join/return suffice < 1292104740 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you need it in some capacity, since >>= can't be expressed in terms of join and return alone. < 1292104750 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm indeed < 1292104766 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok well I have treeMap so that's sorted < 1292104777 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok so obviously "join (Branch x Leaf Leaf) = x" :) < 1292104832 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(>>= f) = join (fmap f), yes? < 1292104890 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish cpressey was here so I could torment him with both monads AND pointfree style! < 1292104952 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, s/!/./ < 1292104972 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What an overbearingly gregarious lapse. < 1292104998 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the examples i find for tree monad all seem to assume something equivalent to the Leaf x | Branch (Tree x) (Tree x) version. although i found this one comment: http://www.rhinocerus.net/forum/lang-haskell/383058-good-old-tree-monad.html#post1814212 < 1292105025 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well I mean I have no objection to "Leaf x | Branch (Tree x) (Tree x)" I just don't see how it's a *tree* < 1292105035 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in when someone says "oh yeah i solved this problem using a TREE", i can't imagine them using that < 1292105115 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, Tree is a monad now? < 1292105174 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: seemingly < 1292105190 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: HA! < 1292105192 0 :Sasha!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1292105200 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How are bind and return done? < 1292105200 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Initially, I thought this was going to be about even plainer binary < 1292105200 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trees, like this: < 1292105200 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Tree a = Branch (Tree a) (Tree a) | Leaf a < 1292105200 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- < 1292105200 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simon Richard Clarkstone: < 1292105205 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: = our SimonRC < 1292105210 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can combine it though, Tree a b = Leaf b | Branch a (Tree a b) (Tree a b), then Tree a is still a monad < 1292105212 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lesson: #esoteric is unable to avoid itself < 1292105217 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : you can combine it though, Tree a b = Leaf b | Branch a (Tree a b) (Tree a b), then Tree a is still a monad < 1292105219 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's ugly though :) < 1292105220 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I assume return = Leaf. < 1292105240 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: um clarkstone doesn't ring a bell < 1292105250 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Simon Richard Clarkstone = SimonRC < 1292105253 0 :Sasha!~WHAT@97-124-36-36.phnx.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292105260 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/whois if you want to check (also note present in #haskell too) < 1292105263 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh /whois agrees < 1292105265 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i remember his sig :) < 1292105271 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so would you recommend I just go for the ultra-plain binary tree route for the sake of algorithmic purity :) < 1292105272 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* [SimonRC] (~sc@fof.durge.org): Simon Richard Clarkstone < 1292105290 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird, i thought his surname was something different < 1292105434 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: for join, whenever you have t :: Tree a (Tree a b), you can conceptually get a Tree a b from that by replacing all Leaf x with x < 1292105460 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at the outer level) < 1292105471 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what's the structure of this tree? < 1292105488 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the combined one above < 1292105515 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wait since when does Tree have two type parameters < 1292105529 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: in the combined version it does < 1292105543 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1292105543 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: we're doing the (Leaf X | Branch Tree Tree) version now, I've decided :P < 1292105545 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for simplicity < 1292105547 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you allow different types for values in branches and in leaves < 1292105558 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ok in that case just ignore the a's < 1292105672 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so hm < 1292105677 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tree :: Tree (Tree a) -> Tree a < 1292105682 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh that's rather easy then isn't it < 1292105686 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: we just want to s/Leaf x/x/ < 1292105693 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? < 1292105702 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :join (Leaf x) = x; join (Branch t1 t2) = Branch (join t1) (join t2) < 1292105737 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1292105747 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and thus joinTree = foldTree Branch id < 1292105751 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, I found out why Coq files have a .v suffix: it's short for "vernacular". < 1292105776 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Insert lewd reference to Coq's name and word beginning with V. < 1292105784 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Insert me being swatted by oerjan. < 1292105793 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION obliges -----###
< 1292105834 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine if this subreddit actually were highly active http://www.reddit.com/r/correctionsdept/ < 1292105854 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "there doesn't seem to be anything here" - ha, ha, ha < 1292105880 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm so wait how do you do bind in terms of fmap and join? < 1292105884 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's uh < 1292105890 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x >>= f = join (fmap f x) < 1292105891 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1292105896 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1292105912 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's no fair to type my lines before me! < 1292105972 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(btw it was linked from http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/ek22q/reddit_now_creates_the_news_the_ciapsyteknet/) < 1292106156 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oerjan, I said that about 15 minutes before either of you. < 1292106206 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, (>>=) = flip $ join . fmap < 1292106208 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: well your time-traveling ways aren't fair either! < 1292106263 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: um no i don't think that's right < 1292106282 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh? < 1292106286 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :progress so far simplifying bind: < 1292106287 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : bindTree {Leaf v} f = f v < 1292106287 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : bindTree {Branch t1 t2} f = Branch (((mapTree f t1) (\x -> x) Branch)) (((mapTree f t2) (\x -> x) Branch)) < 1292106303 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, operator precedence or...? < 1292106341 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish we still had lambdabot... < 1292106345 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(>>=) = flip $ (join .) . fmap < 1292106404 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you were trying to use . with a two-argument function < 1292106404 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: go ask for lambdabot again :D < 1292106410 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: *not* you, you're not nice and persuasive < 1292106415 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i didn't do it the first time < 1292106423 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bind = (join .) . flip fmap < 1292106423 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: which is why you're the best person to do it now! < 1292106428 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: nobody's sick of you yet < 1292106459 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt anyone remembers me from last time I asked... < 1292106473 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but when you asked, it disappeared soon after. < 1292106480 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I (IIRC) asked gwern it didn't. < 1292106488 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I'm sayin' is: you're not sweet enough :P < 1292106498 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1292106522 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: just use puppy dog eyes < 1292106523 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8.8 < 1292106582 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it probably disappears whenever lambdabot quits, regardless. sheesh. < 1292106605 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it didn't last time, iirc it was added to the list :) i may be wrong though < 1292106622 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: anyway go ask! you can prolly use your haskell report credentials to make ridiculous demands or sth < 1292106625 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : bindTree {Leaf v} f = f v < 1292106625 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : bindTree {Branch t1 t2} f = Branch (bindTree t1 f) (bindTree t2 f) < 1292106626 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how's fmap defined for Tree? < 1292106626 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES < 1292106628 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was added to the list why did it disappear again? < 1292106628 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT FINALLY WORKS < 1292106638 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It's just map. < 1292106642 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mapTree f {Leaf x} = Leaf (f x) < 1292106642 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mapTree f {Branch t1 t2} = Branch (mapTree f t1) (mapTree f t2) < 1292106643 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1292106645 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mapTree f t = foldTree Branch (Leaf . f) < 1292106649 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: who knows? I think it changed servers at one point or something < 1292106654 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, just map Leaf x => Leaf (f x). < 1292106656 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Lemmih is the current guy-to-bug. < 1292106785 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/UiAY here's my working out of all of this < 1292106790 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::: precedes a block that's equivalent < 1292106836 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear god what is that at foldl aaaaa < 1292106870 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foldl = xqgqaqgqflaqxqzl < 1292106872 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Read it like this: < 1292106887 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foldl f z xs = foldr (\x g a -> g (f a x)) (\x -> x) xs z < 1292106891 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: fthagn! < 1292106895 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The suffixes on the variables were added because I ran into alpha-renaming issues. < 1292106913 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is why I need a manual-but-automated rewriter tool. :p < 1292107070 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would anyone like a copy of my GLORIOUS EYE-CURING GNOME THEME? < 1292107163 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, Coq curries things, doesn't it? < 1292107215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chicken and curry < 1292107469 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Generally, yes. < 1292107521 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My tormentor was in fact the byzantine implicit argument system masquerading in the garb of currying oddities. < 1292107554 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION notes http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/memos/Memo13.txt for reading in a minute
< 1292107565 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: The implicit argument system is nicer than Agda's, at least. < 1292107572 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Would you like my WONDERFUL GNOME THEME? < 1292107588 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY IS IT SO "£$%"£$%ING *HARD* TO MAKE ID A FUNCTION? < 1292107592 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PLEASE EXPLAIN. < 1292107592 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1292107611 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Definition id x := x. < 1292107619 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, no. < 1292107625 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Definition id {A} (x : A) := x. < 1292107633 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything wrong with that? < 1292107634 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, YOU'D THINK IT'D BE THAT SIMPLE BUT NOOOOO < 1292107640 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq < Definition id {A} (x : A) := x. < 1292107640 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id is defined < 1292107642 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes it is. < 1292107647 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're doing it wrong. < 1292107649 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES THERE BLOODY WELL IS < 1292107656 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: What? < 1292107677 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Case expressions can be removed by defining data constructors as < 1292107678 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :functions and transforming case expressions to function applications.]] < 1292107684 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, fmap (A B : Set) (f : A -> B). < 1292107690 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey they stole Church's and Mogensen's and Scott's and my idea :) < 1292107695 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: And? How is id not a function? < 1292107715 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fmap [elided or not actually there depending on what's set] id is a type error. < 1292107731 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't ask me why because I don't know. < 1292107743 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: OK, please give me the full definition of fmap. < 1292107749 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id has type forall A : Type, A -> A. < 1292107753 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: OK, please give me the full definition of fmap. < 1292107768 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO BECAUSE IT IS EMBARRASSINGLY AWFUL < 1292107776 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: OK, please give me the full definition of fmap. < 1292107784 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have done monads in Coq before. < 1292107800 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fixpoint fmap (A B : Set) (f : A -> B) (t : tree A) : tree B := [elided]. < 1292107821 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Definition of tree, please. < 1292107825 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, nevermind. < 1292107827 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can just make it an axiom. < 1292107917 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Essentially, I'm told that fmap id is an error as id : ID rather than * -> *. < 1292107936 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes, because the values of A and B are not clear. < 1292107938 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where ID = forall A : Type, A -> A. < 1292107946 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You might want to try using {A B : Set} in fmap. < 1292107958 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Failing that... just give A as a parameter, and forall A in the scope you're in. < 1292107961 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, just tried that. < 1292107965 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still an error. < 1292107967 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Failing that... just give A as a parameter, and forall A in the scope you're in. < 1292107969 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, tried that. < 1292107972 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still an error. < 1292108020 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq < Axiom tree : Set -> Set. < 1292108020 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tree is assumed < 1292108020 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq < Axiom fmap : forall (A B : Set) (f : A -> B) (t : tree A), tree B. < 1292108020 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fmap is assumed < 1292108020 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq < Definition id {A} (x : A) := x. < 1292108028 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fmap_id < 1292108030 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : : forall A : Set, tree A -> tree A < 1292108032 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You did something wrong, then. < 1292108051 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, so I have to actually *define my own id* because Coq's definition is idiotic? < 1292108070 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Nope: < 1292108081 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, you did. < 1292108086 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I forgot Coq has its own. < 1292108096 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, then try it with that. < 1292108116 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly. < 1292108123 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1292108133 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq < Definition fmap_id (A : Set) (t : tree A) : tree A := fmap A A (id (A:=A)) t. < 1292108133 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fmap_id is defined < 1292108142 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Was that so hard? < 1292108151 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If an implicit parameter can't be inferred, just specify it with (paramname:=val). < 1292108172 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How I found out what name to use: < 1292108176 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq < Check id. < 1292108176 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id < 1292108176 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : : ID < 1292108176 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq < Print ID. < 1292108176 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ID = forall A : Type, A -> A < 1292108233 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly what I did. < 1292108251 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I refuse to believe it discriminates against you and refuses to execute the same code that works for me. < 1292108253 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You did something wrong. < 1292108269 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I've managed to convince myself that the only good representation of data as lambda-calculus functions is with their induction-recursion right folds. Yay. < 1292108283 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, sans the (A := A) which is the silly part I couldn't remember. < 1292108286 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"also, for future reference, spambots, makes no sense as an XML-style tag in any markup system I know..." Apparently someone typed that in a spam message in esolang wiki? < 1292108296 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: The silly part? That's the important part. < 1292108314 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: When you say "fmap A A id t", it can't infer what the value of A is in id's type, (forall A, A -> A). < 1292108330 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You can't say (id A), obviously, because we can easily infer that A:=Set and thus id is Set -> Set and thus (id A) = A. < 1292108342 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: The reliable way to specify implicit type parameters is with (name:=val). < 1292108353 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just because the name in id's type and the name in your code happen to coincide doesn't make it silly. < 1292108366 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be (A:=WhatARandomNameToGiveASet). < 1292108390 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that is not my problem; my problem is "why make the parameter implicit if you'll have to specify it explicitly anyway". < 1292108418 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Because in all the /other/ cases, it works fine. < 1292108437 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implicit parameters are hugely convenient; the type inferrer just can't manage this one case; once you see the error and know what to do, it's trivial to fix. < 1292108443 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you mean those in which id is not being passed to other functions? < 1292108462 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: No, you can pass id to other functions easily; just not to functions you're using polymorphically. < 1292108474 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or some condition roughly like that.) < 1292108482 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think it is somehow possible to do some special things in C by a external program that looks at the error messages emitted by the compiler? < 1292108489 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a compromise solution, sure; but then so is type inference, there's always going to be cases it can't handle. < 1292108756 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that you can insert compile-time error traps into the program, and then in case of specific errors, modify the program and resubmit it to the compiler to try again. < 1292108776 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: That seems... interesting. < 1292108779 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An automatic bug-fixer? :p < 1292108783 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Would you like my GNOME THEME?!?!?1i19037248957yj < 1292108819 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, does it shrilly scream about type errors constantly? < 1292108876 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: NOPE! That's the best feature! < 1292108882 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No, not quite an automatic bug-fixer. You would still have to enter manually what it changes in case of what error, so you might use it to change things in case something doesn't fit due to machine word size, or to allow "x.qqq" to be replaced by a macro if "x" is not a structure, and so on. < 1292108888 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I shall have it! < 1292108894 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: BTW, I often find that it's actually easier to write functions with tactics first. < 1292108897 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-173-239-57.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292108909 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every video encoder sucks. < 1292108918 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-D < 1292108929 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Defining functions like that is a Bad Idea, but you can do it -- just end Definition with a dot. And you can even do some fixed-point stuff. Just remember to Show the code at the end and replace the tactics with it. < 1292108937 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cannot figure out *any* way to properly encode mixed framerate video. < 1292108977 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Handbrake almost does it, (Windows-only) Avisynth can be hacked into doing it, x264's CLI can do it if you can somehow get a timestamp file for it, and nothing else even *makes the attempt*. < 1292109035 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://filebin.ca/qkmtx/Kimono.zip < 1292109044 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I could perhaps write a timestamp-generating inverse telecine filter + deinterlacer, I could just barely get it going right. < 1292109047 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Install by selecting the zip in Appearance → Install... < 1292109062 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Fonts to set: Application font = Droid Sans, Document font = Sans, < 1292109065 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Desktop font = Droid Sand < 1292109074 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Sans; Window title font = Droid Sans Bold < 1292109077 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fixed width font = Droid Sans Mono < 1292109081 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All 10 except Window title, which should be 11. < 1292109095 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And set your DPI write in details, too. (http://members.ping.de/~sven/dpi.html to calculate) < 1292109103 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, okay, so the DPI thing is optional. < 1292109105 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the fonts aren't. :p < 1292109128 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Droid Sans preinstalled? < 1292109138 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and the .deb for the Droid fonts: http://ubuntu.mirrors.pair.com/archive//pool/universe/t/ttf-droid/ttf-droid_1.00~b112+dfsg+1-0ubuntu1_all.deb < 1292109145 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://ubuntu.mirrors.pair.com/archive//pool/universe/t/ttf-droid/ttf-droid_1.00~b112+dfsg+1-0ubuntu1_all.deb < 1292109154 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: wget it and dpkg -i it. < 1292109169 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and I apologise to pikhq for making a theme that isn't Grey Mist. < 1292109170 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So. ATM I am encoding with a gigantic pipeline because I've gotten fed up with the limitations of all the tools out there. ALL OF THEM. < 1292109181 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Screenshot? < 1292109217 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or possibly if you suppress some error messages, even. < 1292109225 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Sure. < 1292109252 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, erm, Appearance expects something called a theme file and complains about the zip. < 1292109261 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Oh. < 1292109265 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I'll reupload in a second. < 1292109266 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: http://imgur.com/GIKWc.png (Phantom_Hoover too) < 1292109273 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: (If you think the fonts are huge, consider that my display is 120 ppi.) < 1292109299 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that Bad or Good? < 1292109316 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Good, but it means fonts will look huge for people on less Good displays. :p < 1292109323 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i.e. desktop displays or not-as-small laptops) < 1292109328 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Still want it after seeing THE HIDEOUS SCREENSHOT? < 1292109350 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must say my enthusiasm is dimmed somewhat. < 1292109361 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOUR LOSS < 1292109372 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I actually *like* Mist. < 1292109375 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Insufficiently Grey. And insufficiently Mist. < 1292109377 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now pikhq will yell at me for the fact that it has a gradient. < 1292109380 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SEE I WAS RIGHT < 1292109443 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Looking at it, I guess it actually just shows that, deep down, I still like Bluecurve. :P < 1292109509 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there an easy way of expressing function composition in Coq? < 1292109556 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think another use of getting these message from compiler to automatically change things, might also include linker errors, if needed. < 1292109571 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://coq.inria.fr/library/Coq.Program.Basics.html < 1292109574 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Notation " g ∘ f " := (compose g f) < 1292109575 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (at level 40, left associativity) : program_scope. < 1292109589 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You may want to define your own notation for it that is less Unicodey. < 1292109635 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funnily enough, compose is not a defined object for me. < 1292109663 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: "Library Coq.Program.Basics" < 1292109667 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Require Import Coq.Program.Basics. < 1292109691 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: (Or Require Import Program.Basics or Require Import Basics.) < 1292109697 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Electric terminator, but anyway... < 1292109716 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: What about it? < 1292109731 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You realise you can cause statements to become un-evaluated? And also unevaluate everything beyond a certain point in the document? < 1292109741 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which, of course, is what you should do all the time when correcting things... < 1292109753 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C-c C-u to unevaluate the previous statement, I think ... but I've forgotten. < 1292109765 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes, but typing "." evaluates. < 1292109783 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes; and? < 1292109812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eviluation < 1292109881 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so Require Import Foo.Bar. will evaluate as soon as I type the "." after Foo. < 1292109893 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: And? < 1292109913 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, it takes care of that. < 1292109951 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Ohh, I see what you mean. < 1292109952 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it does. < 1292109960 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proof General is godly. < 1292109981 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"# See the Proof General Eclipse wiki for screenshots of Proof General in Eclipse." < 1292109982 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY DOES THAT EXIST < 1292110072 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD. < 1292110262 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: What are you writing in Coq? < 1292110309 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, incompetence personified. < 1292110318 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Which is intended to be? < 1292110357 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something... monady... < 1292110385 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Oh, sprunge your code. :p < 1292110417 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1292110446 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even better: I'll EXTRACT it! < 1292110525 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I'd prefer to laugh at your Coq. < 1292110530 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Considering extraction removes all the interesting dependency. < 1292110537 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the monad of incompetence < 1292110558 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally a good use for strict encapsulation < 1292110579 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NB: My method for proving things in Coq is "type simpl. Type rewrite and some relevant rule. Type unfold and a function name. Is proof finished? Repeat otherwise." < 1292110597 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With "type intros. Type induction and a variable name." stuck in for good measure. < 1292110606 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the occasional reflexivity. < 1292110625 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know 6 tactics and that is enough! < 1292110816 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: If rewrite is your most common tactic, ur doin it rong. < 1292110828 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deeply. < 1292110832 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: BTW, Proof General can list all the tactics in the system (there's fewer than you think). < 1292110837 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just TAB on that and pick a likely one. :p < 1292110847 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't pretend to know how to do it properly. < 1292110901 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I'm just trying to help. < 1292111068 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But seriously; I've never had occasion to do anything interesting enough to invest time into properly learning Coq. < 1292111199 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Do what me and fax were trying to do, replace the standard library. < 1292111214 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: (Try starting with category theory; there's a wonderful paper about embedding it into Coq, absolutely wonderful.) < 1292111222 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That actually seems worthwhile. How do I sign up? < 1292111224 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can't get the algebraic structures down, you lose. < 1292111227 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You sign up by doing it! < 1292111234 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Er, there's some option to Coq to tell it to forget the stdlib exists. < 1292111235 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me find it. < 1292111246 0 :Sasha2!~WHAT@75-174-221-22.phnx.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1292111253 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i note that fax disappeared from the internet right after oerjan banned it < 1292111270 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: < 1292111271 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(* < 1292111271 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*** Local Variables: *** < 1292111271 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*** coq-prog-args: ("-emacs-U" "-nois") *** < 1292111271 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*** End: *** < 1292111274 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...i've seen fax on freenode since then < 1292111279 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Put that at the end of your file... or the top, I forget. < 1292111285 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Well, okay, stopped posting to reddit. And its blog. < 1292111287 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I think you misunderestimate how weirdly uneven my understanding of things. < 1292111291 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is < 1292111297 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Try the bottom. Yes, the bottom. < 1292111304 0 :Sasha!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1292111358 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://sqig.math.ist.utl.pt/pub/CarvalhoA/98-C-DiplomaThesis/maintext.ps < 1292111361 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: (One version of) the lovely paper. < 1292111385 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, did I mention that I don't know any category theory? < 1292111394 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You don't really have to. :p < 1292111413 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also that I'm tired? < 1292111420 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not even midnight... < 1292111439 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Categories are what happens when you decide to make entire mathematical foundations objects. For instance, in the Set category, objects are sets. In the Hask category (Haskell), objects are Haskell types. < 1292111454 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Then you get to the cat of small cats -- sorry, category of small categories -- and shit goes crazy. < 1292111462 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think oerjan can agree with the part of my explanation that involves shit going crazy. < 1292111479 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Also morphisms and monoids and monads. < 1292111522 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and topoi. or so i hear. < 1292111540 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i never got that far :D < 1292111551 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really me either