←2010-12-09 2010-12-10 2010-12-11→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:01:32 <nooga> which one
00:01:47 <elliott> nooga: This one.
00:02:15 <nooga> okay
00:06:47 <nooga> i can't see any compilers here
00:13:56 <nooga> ghh
00:15:31 <elliott> POSER INSTRUCTION
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00:28:08 <elliott> bash: ./foo: cannot execute binary file
00:28:10 <elliott> That's a new one.
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00:33:44 <elliott> I hereby present The World's Worst Code Formatting Style, revision 1:
00:33:52 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/hShh
00:34:20 <elliott> Yes, there are rules involved.
00:34:22 <elliott> Horrible rules.
00:34:34 <elliott> &c and &d should be "& c" and "& d" there.
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00:38:57 <Ilari> One could immediately spot "optimizations". :-)
00:41:07 <nooga> what was that :F
00:41:30 <nooga> i hope that elliott isn;t trying to write another C compiler
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01:00:41 <Gregor> Z̷̰͙͚̫ͮ̐͝a̢̳̹̪͂̊̇̔̃͛̕͜ḷ̷̡̘̙̝̠̩͇̈́͆͢ǧ̅͏̹̮̟̰͇̝ő̱͚̠̗̠̖̣ͯ̀̀͠ͅ,̢͚̪̯͍̰̟̠̗̎ͪͧ̅ ͙̝̞̬̘͈̫̐͊̏̀ͧ̐͌a̡̖̪̻͕̯̅ͬ͋́̾͘ǹ̳̤ͧ́̀ͪ̍ͦͭ͘̕͜y̸͕̙͈̣̣̥̰͎ͩ̏ͦ̈́̓̌ͧo̶̮̼̫ͧ̐̍̃n̡̝̦̭̰͉̳͎͓̄̒ͩ̎ͪ̄͘͘ĕ̫̲̺ͤ?̥̥͇̦̻̗̟ͫ͒̃͑ͤ͋
01:03:58 <nooga> who
01:04:08 <nooga> wtf is that
01:04:34 <nooga> Zatgo?
01:04:57 <Gregor> nooga: Zalgo. Zalgo is to invoke the hive-mind representing chaos.
01:05:07 <Gregor> Invoking the feeling of chaos.
01:05:11 <Gregor> With out order.
01:05:42 <Gregor> T̜̙̙͎̹̾͋ͩ̾͒ͤ̾ͅȟͬ̅e̢͚̣̩̩ͩͯ̌ͅ ҉N̈̾̚ez͖͍̬̥̣͙ͨ̾̌̔̔̇p̯͚eͯ͏̼̤̼r̾ͯ̕d̸̲̗̺i̹̳̹͉̙̳ͫ̃̽ͮ̽̅ͭa̡̺̻͙͕͕͇͕ͦn̴͓̜͌̊̅̔̊̒̓ ̛̜̤̭̊ͭh̵̟̮͔̘̬̜ͪi͎͊̑v̢͖͚̖͖͈̈́̿̀̽̏e̖̝̙̱̗͎̦͌̏̎̅̚-̟̹̠ͬͥ̈m̩̞͔͖̰̥̉̄̅ͫͬ́iͩ́ͫ̏͊̚n͋ͨͭ͞ḏ̩̰̦̫͇ ̨̹̫ͯ̔ͣͪo̡̮͈f͓̫͖̣̭ͩ͗̓ͧ̍̏̄ ̤̩̯̰̞̎͢c̲͓̯͞h̳̗̳̜̲͚ͤͥa̜͊o̳̣̭̐͂ͅs̎̒̐̋ͪ
01:05:43 <Gregor> ̨̖͙͖̹̞̗̈́ͨ.̛̟̦̙̙͎̮̉͑̈́ ̳̘̫̳Ž̧̬͎̝ͤ̿͆̋a̹̦l̢͔̟̜̈̀͐g̩̩̣̲͍͈ͯ̈͐ͦ̐̽̽ò̥͖.̍ͤ̽̍҉̙̭̰̼̞̩ ̸̂
01:05:56 <Gregor> Ḩ̶̡̯̮̠̙͙̹ͤ͊͂ͅe͍͖̅ͬͪ̏ͅ ̶̞̬̬̪̳̄͆̍͌̈́͘w̸̷̩͓̠̌̇ͯh͈͙̰͈̫̃̿̒ͭ͆ͪͣ̀͘͢ȍ̺͈̞̥̺̝͖ͯͮ͞ ̡̮̃͠Ẅ̮̖̝̊̀͜ͅá͖̻̞̬̖̮̾͒̎͂̔͠i̸̤͉̻̣ͮͤ̆ͥͭ̾̀t̸ͭ͋͗̍͋̔ͩ҉͔̣ş̷͖̝ͤ̑̈́̒͋̑̀ͣ̔ ͚͖̻͙̲̂ͦ͌ͤ̄͗B̝̫̻̬͈̦̲̮̭͊ͮ̍̂̏ͯ̇ͯe̼̺̠͍͚̤̫͖̊ͩ̒̋h̦͉ͤi̻͈͉̱̭̠̲ͪͪ̈́̀̊̐̑̈̀͡n͈̥͔̤̫̜ͮ̋͗d̡̼̖͕̠̙̫̬̗̂ ̢͈̜̺͉ͥ͌ͬ̀̆͑̔͠T̿ͦ
01:05:56 <Gregor> ̧̗̭̺͗̑ͥ̾͞h̷̨̤ͩ͂ͥ͒̈̿eͥ̅͗̽͛̂ͦ҉̗̝͎͖͚̩͍̹̜͜ ̔ͫ̏ͮ͗ͩ̚҉͈̝W̵̛̱̩͙̦̲̗͔̳̏̀͡a̸̯̣͍̽ͮ̔͒̅͑ͥͥ͐l̸̴̗̉̒̌̐̐͋͐̒͢ḽ̗͉̻̠̞͉͙ͫ̒͝.ͮ͐͏̴̗̺̟͖̣͎̮
01:06:05 <Gregor> Z̶̵̑̋̑̐͊̂̓̽ͨ̃͏͕͍̖̘̱̻͙̗̺̗̠͙̥Ą̴̯̺̟̭̅ͩͣ͑͘͝L͚̙͖̳̂̌̑̈́͌ͪ̿ͦ͘̕ͅĢ̷̛̹̙̖̩̻͚͚̳̳̬͇̮̬̰̬̒̑̑͗͗͆͛ͮͯ͑ͩ͜͝Ö̓̃̍ͬ̏̈́͋̉ͨ̓̂̔̐̐҉̴̨̞̟̪͈̬̝̞̬̱͠!̍ͭ̇͊̈̎̿ͬ͗ͥ̅̓̓̿̆̈́ͯͦ̈́̀͞҉̥̹̮͓̻
01:07:20 <nooga> oh this creepypasta
01:07:22 <nooga> right
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01:16:42 <nooga_> h3h
01:17:23 <nooga_> i couldn't screen -x the existing irssi session because it was on pts/0
01:17:41 <Gregor> That'll do it.
01:19:38 <nooga_> ?
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01:35:15 <nooga_> uh
01:35:18 <nooga_> screen is stoopid
01:37:18 <nooga_> as well as putty
01:37:21 <nooga_> and windows
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02:26:46 <zzo38> I would like your suggestions about this D&D class http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/options/Patamagician.c
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02:40:49 <zzo38> Do you like Null Metamagic?
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03:42:33 <quintopia> i don't even get it
03:42:47 <Gregor> No one gets it.
03:43:23 <quintopia> i also don't get why this channel is fucking up in my buffer...the last line printed stays six lines up :(
03:43:31 <Sgeo> quintopia, XChat?
03:43:35 <Gregor> 8-D
03:43:38 <quintopia> irssi
03:43:42 <zzo38> quintopia: What program? Do other channels do that?
03:43:43 <Gregor> quintopia: I'm betting it's because I ZALGO'D YOU
03:43:46 * oerjan blames ZALGO :D
03:43:55 <quintopia> it's just this one
03:44:00 <oerjan> although it's not happening in my irssi
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03:44:14 <Sgeo> ZALGO?
03:44:16 <zzo38> Maybe the terminal option is misconfigured?
03:44:18 <oerjan> quintopia: try pressing ^L ?
03:44:30 <quintopia> it didn't fix it
03:44:35 <quintopia> maybe i need a new window
03:44:39 <oerjan> Sgeo: that unicode noise Gregor pasted
03:44:51 <Sgeo> It had no detrimental effect on my clien
03:44:51 <oerjan> (it's a meme)
03:44:52 <Gregor> Sgeo: Za̷l̴g͞o is̀ ̨to̵ ̶ín͞v̶ok͡e ҉the̕ h͠i̛v̸e-͝m͞i̴n͡d͟ ͘re̛p̶r̵e̡śen͟t͞ìng ch̢a͘ơs.
03:44:54 <Sgeo> client
03:45:05 <Sgeo> hive-mind?
03:45:26 <Gregor> Sgeo: I͎̖͝n̨͔͙̪̹̰͎͎v͔̥̖̝̺͡o̱̦̳k͍̲̱̺ͅi̭̲͙͓̗̥n̟͖͎̱͓̯g̮̹̼̘͇̹ ̟̟͚̻̱̝͎th̰͓͓̞̟e̺ ̷̙̻̟̮͚fe̶el̟̼̹̀ị͖̮̯̞n̬ͅͅg̟̼͎̳̩̠͘ ͔̠o̙͓̳f̻̜̪͖̻̙ ̲͕c̢̣̪̩̣̺͕h̪̮̬̙̥a͕͈̱̻̬̹̦o̯̺̬̼̟s̗͖̦̠̣̦.̞̲́ ͔̱͈̭̠̟W̕i҉̘̖t̴̳̪ͅh̝̱̬̭͜ ͕̮o̮͍͎̭̥͉͡ut͙̟ ̼͈͖̫͠o̢̼r̪͙̝͢d͖̮̩ͅe̡̳̩̣͕͙r̗̣̜̝͎͜.̪͕̤̜͞ͅ
03:45:27 <Sgeo> Zalgo is to invoke the hive-mind representing chaos
03:45:32 <quintopia> Gregor: nah, that doesn't do anything. what appears to be happening is that somehow the window got the wrong offset for when to start displaying
03:45:38 * quintopia makes a new window
03:45:38 <zzo38> I just see the words with squares overlapping some letters
03:45:39 <oerjan> Sgeo: it only makes sense in a lovecraftian way
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03:46:01 <Sgeo> I see mostly boxes
03:46:02 <quintopia> okiedoke
03:46:08 <Sgeo> But the letters are clear enough
03:46:25 <Gregor> Then your Unicode support S̷̨͈̼̖͈̈́̓ͥ͋̈̑Ų̷̠̹͓͎̱̰͉̮̠̻̮̭͓͌̉ͫ̓̆̿͛̀̐̓̿ͭ̄̍ͤͅC̓̔̔́ͫ͌̾͘͟͏̶̰̤̺̮̕ͅK̵̴͉̞̰̟̣͈̬͔̗̟̐̎ͯͣ͊̐̇͊ͮ̓ͥ͒ͯ̓̓̈́̽͋̚S̴͌̾̊̽͂͛͂͂ͦͧ̈́̽̒͌͒̋̚҉̞̯͎̝͓̥̱̤̹̙̻̦̘̯͓͟
03:46:26 <quintopia> this is my favorite time of day in this channel
03:46:43 <quintopia> Gregor: you is silly
03:46:46 <Gregor> :P
03:46:47 <zzo38> Do you have any suggestions about the 'Patamagician class?
03:46:56 <quintopia> zzo38: does it really need a '?
03:47:01 <Gregor> quintopia: If you don't give me WebSplat suggestions, I'll just have to make it zalgofy things you jump on!
03:47:09 <oerjan> quintopia: it's traditional!
03:47:17 <quintopia> Gregor: ... not bad. go for it!
03:47:17 <zzo38> quintopia: That is part of the name it has a apostrophe
03:47:33 <Sgeo> http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Zalgo (all ED links should be assumed NSFW)
03:48:14 <quintopia> zzo38: what the hell is a null metamagic? why would you want one?
03:49:32 <quintopia> everyone smile
03:49:35 <quintopia> :D
03:49:44 <oerjan> :E
03:49:55 <quintopia> :D
03:50:17 <quintopia> 3:
03:50:23 <Gregor> :D̷̢̼̮͍̫͇̣̹̗̥͍͕̺͆̆̅̇ͭ̇̿ͣ͂ͭ̿̀͜͟͠ͅ
03:50:44 <quintopia> gregor did you just write something
03:50:53 <Gregor> Yes? :P
03:51:07 <quintopia> i think it was you that broke my window
03:51:14 <quintopia> you better not have done it this time
03:51:50 <Gregor> 8-D
03:51:58 <Gregor> LOVE THE ZALGO
03:52:07 <Gregor> (You said it wasn't the Zalgo :P )
03:52:31 <quintopia> this channel needs an admin bot to auto-punt anyone that uses the RTL unicode modifier...
03:53:04 * quintopia tests
03:53:29 <quintopia> i don't think it broke anything this time
03:53:47 <quintopia> oh, wait, it added and extra blank line
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03:54:34 <quintopia> maybe i could write a script that autokilled those particular characters
03:54:48 <quintopia> before they reach the buffer
03:54:56 <zzo38> quintopia: The purpose of a null metamagic is mostly for use with 'patamagic.
03:55:04 <zzo38> But there might be other uses as well.
03:55:31 <quintopia> it's purpose is to what? occupy a slot?
03:55:33 <zzo38> Do you have any suggestions for the auxiliary tables, or any 'patamagic feats?
03:55:49 <zzo38> quintopia: So that you can apply a 'patamagic to it.
03:55:59 <quintopia> oh
03:56:00 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_v._$124,700 Such bullshit.
03:56:09 <pikhq> Yes, that is USA v. $124,700.
03:56:25 <pikhq> Or, in full: United States of America v. $124,700 in U.S. Currency
03:56:51 <quintopia> zzo38: body table: one arm shrinks five inches and the other grows five inches :P
03:58:01 <zzo38> OK. If you have more than two arms, select two at random. If you have only one, select shrink/grow at random. If you have none, reroll.
03:58:24 <pikhq> Yes, the US *actually sued* money.
03:58:34 <zzo38> I didn't know you are allowed to sue money
03:58:49 <pikhq> zzo38: The US can.
03:59:35 <pikhq> zzo38: They sue the currency to do asset forfeiture, without either just compensation or convicting anyone of a crime.
04:00:19 <zzo38> Anything else for the auxiliary tables? I should put twenty or one hundred choices per table, I think.
04:00:58 <zzo38> Is it allowed to sue the sun?
04:01:18 <pikhq> Yes, the US could sue the sun to claim it.
04:01:44 <oerjan> actually that would be against a space treaty, i believe
04:01:59 <quintopia> holy crap pikhq. that's BS. that's practically spitting in the face of the fourth amendment
04:02:06 <pikhq> oerjan: The US handling of treaties is that they are ordinary law.
04:02:14 <pikhq> oerjan: And as such the courts can overrule them just fine.
04:02:30 <pikhq> oerjan: In short, the US says "FUCK YOU, I WANT TYRANNY".
04:02:33 <zzo38> Do you find anything wrong with this 'Patamagician class? Any ideas for 'patamagic feats that can be written?
04:02:42 <pikhq> quintopia: Yeah.
04:03:16 <quintopia> zzo38: the only thing i find wrong with it is that i don't understand it
04:03:48 <zzo38> quintopia: What parts do you not understand? Maybe I can clarify it?
04:03:51 <pikhq> Ah, *anyone* can directly sue an item in order to attempt to claim it.
04:04:15 <zzo38> Is it allowed to sue yourself?
04:04:18 <pikhq> See: R.M.S. Titanic, Inc. v. The Wrecked and Abandoned Vessel, R.M.S. Titanic
04:04:24 <pikhq> (yes, really)
04:04:33 <quintopia> did they win it?
04:04:39 <zzo38> Is it allowed to sue things which do not exist?
04:05:14 <quintopia> zzo38: I think not. cases X vs. God tend to get thrown out.
04:05:39 <zzo38> OK
04:05:48 <pikhq> quintopia: No.
04:06:02 <quintopia> zzo38: explain what that big level table is about (i don't play, so i have no idea)
04:06:17 <quintopia> pikhq: does anyone have a claim to it?
04:06:20 <zzo38> That "R.M.S. Titanic" case is not against itself.
04:06:37 <pikhq> quintopia: No.
04:06:49 <quintopia> hm, well, i suppose that's for the best
04:06:54 <zzo38> quintopia: The level table describes how many spells you get at each experience level
04:06:55 <pikhq> quintopia: It was merely shown that R.M.S. Titanic, Inc. did not have a valid claim.
04:07:21 <quintopia> zzo38: spells per slot?
04:07:29 <zzo38> quintopia: No, spell slots per day.
04:07:44 <quintopia> zzo38: only one kind of spell can occupy a slot at a time?
04:07:53 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes.
04:07:57 <quintopia> aha
04:08:18 <quintopia> and 'patamagic feats ... let you use prepared magic spontaneously and vice versa?
04:09:49 <zzo38> quintopia: No. 'Patamagic feats are effects applied to metamagic feats (like metamagic feats are effects applied to spells), but 'patamagic is applied spontaneously to a prepared spell, and you can spontaneously cast a spell from a spontaneous slot which has been prepared with a 'patamagic feat.
04:10:17 <quintopia> oh
04:10:32 <quintopia> so what's an example of a 'patamagic feat?
04:10:39 <zzo38> You can also spontaneously cast a spell with a spontaneous slot even if it has not been prepared with 'patamagic.
04:11:15 <zzo38> quintopia: I have none yet, but I guess one possibility is one which allows you to use a metamagic feat by spending 'patamagic points instead of adjusting the spell level.
04:11:39 <zzo38> Another could be that the metamagic affects the spell during even numbered rounds of the spell's duration only.
04:13:06 <quintopia> or...the metamagic affects the last spell cast, and history is rewritten to account for the change?
04:13:52 <zzo38> quintopia: No. Metamagic affects the spell you are currently casting.
04:14:15 <zzo38> A 'patamagic only affects a metamagic you have applied to a spell you are casting.
04:14:17 <zzo38> So that won't work.
04:14:24 <quintopia> zzo38: yes, but why couldn't your 'patamagic feat make the metamagic travel back in time? :D
04:15:35 <quintopia> am i evil for even suggesting it?
04:15:52 <zzo38> quintopia: Perhaps that might be a possibility. But the metamagic still has to apply to a spell you are currently casting.
04:16:01 <zzo38> Making a mistake is not the same thing as being evil.
04:17:35 <quintopia> zzo38: i'm suggesting that you first apply the metamagic to the spell you are casting, and then you do the 'patamagic feat, and it switches the metamagic from the spell you are casting to the previous spell, if it applies to that spell
04:18:08 <zzo38> quintopia: Ah! That could work, I think.
04:21:44 <zzo38> (My character in current D&D game is ettercap and my brother's character is human. Next time my character I think I should want to be 'patamagician class, and my brother's character is ninja.)
04:28:01 <zzo38> You can look at some of the other spells and feats I wrote too, if you want to (they are in the same directory).
04:29:44 <quintopia> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7eREddMjt4 this is going to take forever to happen, but if it ever does...wooooo!
04:31:34 <zzo38> What is that video about?
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04:35:46 <quintopia> it is a new MMO in development
04:35:49 <zzo38> for example, if the target asks
04:36:03 <quintopia> large scale procedurally generated universe
04:36:06 <zzo38> "Why did Bodhidharma come to China from India?" and the manifester answers That oak tree in the garden" those words are understandable
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04:40:41 <zzo38> Also do you have any comments about the esolang called TNTNT?
04:42:13 <quintopia> no
04:42:29 <quintopia> did you watch the videos?
04:44:49 <zzo38> quintopia: No. Do you have a transcript of the videos? And then I can watch the transcript. Or a Ogg Theora video I can also watch (but I prefer a transcript).
04:46:09 <quintopia> what do you mean by transcript?
04:46:55 <zzo38> Like a text transcript of the things the video is about.
04:47:02 <quintopia> oh
04:47:19 <quintopia> it would just leave you wishing you had seen the video
04:47:32 <quintopia> here is a transcript of everything that is said in the videos:
04:47:37 <quintopia> \
04:47:58 <quintopia> because it is a tech demo
04:48:03 <quintopia> it's about pretty graphics
04:50:57 <zzo38> I think I submitted the only deterministic solution to the "123" problem on anarchy golf.
04:51:35 <quintopia> what is the problem again?
04:52:00 <zzo38> The program is run three times. No input. The first time, output "1", the second time, output "2", the third time, output "3".
04:52:37 <quintopia> soo...it's "find a way to save state between runs"?
04:53:13 <zzo38> quintopia: Actually there is another later problem which involves saving state between runs.
04:54:00 <quintopia> there is no way to do 123 without finding a way to preserve some state...
04:54:07 <quintopia> what's your solush?
04:54:09 <zzo38> All the other solutions to the "123" problem use the process ID or random numbers.
04:54:24 <zzo38> My solution (in Bash and Zsh) is: ls>>*;wc -l<*
04:54:44 <zzo38> It is shorter than the nondeterministic solutions in Bash.
04:55:52 <zzo38> Please note that with most programming languages available (including Bash and Zsh), your program is the only file in the directory, initially.
04:56:05 <quintopia> yeah, no i see it
04:56:53 <quintopia> otherwise, you'd get some other numbers :P
04:57:02 <zzo38> Yes.
04:57:38 <quintopia> hello coppro
04:57:50 <zzo38> coppro: Are you trying to make a report about the IRC clients used by people in this channel?
04:57:51 <coppro> Hi
04:57:56 <coppro> zzo38: No. I should.
04:58:10 <coppro> or even better
04:58:16 <coppro> I should do like a chart of the top N freenode channels
04:59:21 <quintopia> what are the top N channels? i can't even begin to guess
05:17:29 <zzo38> coppro: Maybe you can also make a report about timezones and cloaks.
05:18:21 <zzo38> Also, do you know what random number algorithm would be suitable for TeXnicard?
05:19:26 <zzo38> (One possibility is the same one used in METAFONT, so that I can reference it in the bibliography.)
05:21:06 <zzo38> Would that one be suitable? Or would a different one do better?
05:22:34 <zzo38> sshc's VERSION response says "mIRC version something"
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06:36:27 <zzo38> Is anyone on, today?
06:48:01 <quintopia> eh
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08:36:01 <Vorpal> I wonder if the French translation of Star Wars uses "Ceci n'est pas une lune"...
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09:00:08 <olsner> Vorpal: that makes for a funny t-shirt text though
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09:19:59 <fizzie> "Ce n'est pas une lune." in the French subtitles.
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11:17:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, close but not close enough
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11:40:24 <nooga> hi
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13:23:02 <elliott> 19:46:47 <zzo38> Do you have any suggestions about the 'Patamagician class?
13:23:05 <elliott> the p is lowercase in 'pata
13:24:07 <zzo38> elliott: It is a title, though?
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13:24:15 <elliott> zzo38: the ' is uppercase
13:24:36 <elliott> zzo38: oh, it seems that the P is capital only at the beginning of a sentence or in a name, like brainfuck
13:25:53 <elliott> zzo38: er, in a title
13:26:09 <elliott> so it's 'Patamagician in titles or at the start of sentences, 'patamagician everywhere else
13:26:31 <elliott> 20:04:18 <pikhq> See: R.M.S. Titanic, Inc. v. The Wrecked and Abandoned Vessel, R.M.S. Titanic
13:26:31 <elliott> 20:04:24 <pikhq> (yes, really)
13:26:33 <elliott> album name.
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13:26:57 <zzo38> The name of the class is a title.
13:29:52 <elliott> ais523: hi
13:30:13 <Vorpal> ineiros, you should generate a new map. the last one is quite old
13:32:38 <elliott> 20:59:21 <quintopia> what are the top N channels? i can't even begin to guess
13:32:42 <elliott> #ubuntu, #gentoo is on there somewhere
13:32:44 <elliott> #wikipedia
13:32:53 <elliott> try /list in a fancy client that can sort /list
13:32:53 <elliott> s
13:34:04 <Vorpal> elliott, ##linux is high too
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13:34:12 <Vorpal> also uh, /list will take ages
13:34:57 <elliott> Vorpal: not that long, actually
13:35:02 <elliott> it's just a few thousand lines :)
13:35:16 <elliott> xchat just displays it raw though, you'd have to | sort -n and the like
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13:35:30 <elliott> * End of /LIST
13:35:32 <elliott> hi ais523
13:36:25 <fizzie> I thought http://irc.netsplit.de/ had a sortable channel list, but apparently not. They produce an across-networks top-100 channel list, and they can list freenode's channels (paginated into 950 pages of 10), but they don't have a per-network top-channels page.
13:36:36 <fizzie> (Or if they do, I can't find it.)
13:37:03 <fizzie> Wait, now it went sorted-by-user-count.
13:37:08 <fizzie> I don't know what I did, exactly.
13:37:32 <fizzie> http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/?net=freenode in that case, maybe. They strip one # off the name there.
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13:38:05 <fizzie> So #ubuntu (1407 users), then #debian, #gentoo, #archlinux, #python, #git, #jquery, ##c++, #perl, #haskell.
13:38:17 <Vorpal> but didn't debian move to oftc?
13:38:28 <Vorpal> and #debian redirect to ##debian iirc?
13:38:40 <elliott> debian are still on freenode, but they're on oftc too.
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13:38:45 <elliott> oh
13:38:48 <elliott> yes, it's ##debian now
13:38:56 <Vorpal> so why is #debian so large?
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13:39:05 <elliott> because it redirects
13:39:09 <elliott> and it used to be #debian
13:39:16 <elliott> so the netsplit.de system still knows it as #debian
13:39:20 <elliott> one presumes
13:39:48 <Vorpal> hm
13:40:08 <elliott> ugh, ##c is too high up that list for comfort
13:40:11 <elliott> horrible channel
13:40:29 <fizzie> Hey, it's our departmental christmas party now, I think I should be out there. ->
13:40:58 * elliott plots ways to overthrow ##c
13:41:01 <elliott> Nukes?
13:41:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I need to know which sea you plan to use for the glass cube, because I need to find one for something I planned. Need to be large (but not nearly as large, something like 70x50 is enough for me)
13:41:18 <Vorpal> elliott, thus I would rather not build where you will be building
13:41:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Um, find a sea that isn't very close to nice, mountainous land, and that ideally doesn't have a perfect 128x128 block somewhere in it. :p
13:41:47 <elliott> And if you can go further from spawn that would work too.
13:42:12 <Vorpal> elliott, well which one. I want to be reasonably close to spawn due to travel time otherwise (I will need to get a lot of material from my store)
13:42:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Warp :P
13:42:27 <Vorpal> elliott, none yet afaik?
13:42:53 <elliott> Vorpal: No, but you could always get one added.
13:43:00 <elliott> It's a single command at Mount Vorpal to get /warp vorpal.
13:43:40 <Vorpal> elliott, depends on ineiros doing it though
13:44:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Ask nicely? :p
13:44:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Actually /warp thingi'mbuilding would be better, since you wouldn't want /warp vorpal to go inside.
13:44:21 <elliott> And then we could visit it too.
13:44:29 <elliott> Vorpal: But, ehh, just take any sea; most of them don't have 128x128 blocks.
13:44:30 <Vorpal> elliott, well yeah, he said he would add them but was rather preoccupied.
13:44:45 <elliott> /tp dwarf1982 BCxVAhWQXI
13:44:48 <elliott> /setwarp thing
13:44:53 <Vorpal> elliott, as for that thing I plan: I have no idea how it will turn out. :P
13:45:01 <Vorpal> elliott, did you type that user name from memory!?
13:45:08 <Vorpal> (mine I mean)
13:45:18 <Vorpal> elliott, if so: more than I can do
13:45:19 <elliott> LOL, PHP decided against supporting "finally" beause you could just catch and ignore the exception.
13:45:20 <elliott> Genius.
13:45:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, I did.
13:45:27 <elliott> Vorpal: *WQxi, actually.
13:45:39 <Vorpal> is it. okay
13:45:46 <elliott> Vorpal: "B.C. Ex-vah Wuh-kwuh-cksi".
13:46:00 <Vorpal> elliott, the w is not voiced
13:46:20 <elliott> Vorpal: 'Tis in my mind.
13:46:21 <Vorpal> the second one in that pronunciation that is
13:46:22 <elliott> whoa.
13:46:29 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, heh.
13:46:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, Vorpal, are you two planning Minecraft things?
13:46:32 <elliott> No.
13:46:36 <Vorpal> elliott, as in: "B.C. Ex-vah Wuh-kuh-cksi"
13:46:37 <elliott> [[This is one of numerous cases why finally is useful:
13:46:37 <elliott> mysql_query("LOCK TABLES mytable WRITE");
13:46:37 <elliott> try {
13:46:37 <elliott> // ... do lots of queries here
13:46:37 <elliott> } finally {
13:46:45 <elliott> try {
13:46:47 <elliott> // ... do lots of queries here
13:46:49 <elliott> } catch (Exception $e) {
13:46:51 <elliott> // do nothing here
13:46:53 <elliott> }
13:46:54 <Vorpal> what
13:46:55 <elliott> mysql_query("UNLOCK TABLES");
13:46:57 <elliott> The only difference is the second example does rethrow the exception. Though this is still possible (however much more to type) it is wrong design. Since obviously you are using the exceptions as control flow.]]
13:46:58 <Vorpal> elliott, that makes no sense
13:47:00 <elliott> look at that
13:47:02 <elliott> silently dropping the exception is better than re-throwing it after cleaning up
13:47:04 <elliott> this person is a core PHP developer.
13:47:06 <elliott> >_<
13:47:08 <elliott> Vorpal: PHP makes no sense
13:47:10 <elliott> Vorpal: http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=32100 see the problem and first response
13:47:11 <Vorpal> elliott, "transactions"?
13:47:12 <elliott> then cry
13:47:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, that is how you do sql stuff. With transactions
13:47:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Dude, they built this language on embedding values into SQL strings.
13:47:32 <elliott> They don't know shit about SQL features :P
13:47:52 <Vorpal> elliott, php does support sql transactions iirc though. No idea to what degree
13:48:11 <elliott> Yeah yeah :P
13:49:34 <elliott> Vorpal: The best thing is, to rethrow the exception, you need
13:49:36 <elliott> try { ... }
13:49:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes I'm considering an underground dock. Two waterfalls in the middle of the sea, a bit from each other. then a small river from the down shaft, opening onto a small lake (this really needs flickering flames :/) with a dock. From that another short river to an up shaft
13:49:45 <elliott> catch (Exception $e) { mysql_query("UNLOCK TABLES"); throw $e; }
13:49:46 <elliott> mysql_query("UNLOCK TABLES");
13:49:55 <elliott> Redundancy AND it loses the file/line info!
13:50:13 <elliott> "Two waterfalls in the middle of the sea, a bit from each other" ;; use the ones you already have? :p
13:50:22 <Vorpal> elliott, these ones go *down*
13:50:23 * Phantom_Hoover wonders how MoveCraft deals with ships sailing into waterfalls.
13:50:30 <Vorpal> elliott, but I could do it in the same sea, sure
13:51:06 <elliott> Vorpal: That might work, I don't plan to buld there.
13:51:12 <Vorpal> elliott, actually one waterfall and one drop shaft. Hm. How to prevent the water from flowing into the drop shaft and making the boat not drop
13:51:28 <Vorpal> oh wait, I could use that.
13:51:30 <Vorpal> right
13:51:31 <Vorpal> hah
13:51:46 <Vorpal> (like the water-redstone thingy, except with no redstone)
13:51:52 <Vorpal> (perfect drop shaft)
13:57:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, elliott: which of you ruined the easter egg
13:57:38 <elliott> huh?
13:57:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, not me.
13:57:47 <Vorpal> elliott, lots of lava, stuff dug away
13:57:59 <elliott> Vorpal: not I, I haven't been tot he easteregg since you led me there
13:58:05 <elliott> I'm not good enough at navigation :P
13:58:13 <Vorpal> elliott, Phantom_Hoover: I doubt fizzie would do it, nor ineiros. I certainly didn't do it. nailor: doubtful. So that leaves you two.
13:58:29 <elliott> Well, I haven't been there in ages *shrug*
13:58:33 <Vorpal> elliott, so PH then
13:58:39 <elliott> I get lost by travelling for 30 seconds away from Mount Hoover.
13:58:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no good lying
13:58:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it wasn't me.
13:59:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you or elliott. I don't know who
13:59:20 <Vorpal> but seriously. One of you are lying
13:59:28 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not me.
13:59:36 <elliott> I blame sheep.
13:59:49 <elliott> Or cows. What did the server say to burn?
13:59:54 <elliott> Whatever they are, they're clearly evil.
14:00:01 <Vorpal> elliott, ... pouring lava over the whole thing? digging away blocks?
14:00:16 <elliott> Nasty piece of work, cows... sheep?
14:00:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiendishly intelligent beasts, sheep.
14:00:26 <elliott> Seriously though, I've been there exactly once.
14:00:42 <Vorpal> ....
14:01:21 <Vorpal> when I find out who did it, I will make the same damage to whatever he built
14:02:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you are the prime suspect. Can you prove you didn't do it?
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14:02:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, ...no. Why am I the prime suspect?
14:02:44 <elliott> I see Vorpal's legal system is based on the tried-and-true principle of guilty until proven guilty. :p
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14:07:51 <elliott_> Vorpal: I can't log in
14:07:55 <elliott_> it says i'm alraedy logged in
14:08:18 <Vorpal> elliott_, it says "ehird joined/left" all the time
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14:21:40 <elliott_> pikhq: CubeHash is not an SHA-3 finalist.
14:21:53 <elliott_> "According to the announcement, the choice of finalists came down more to issues of efficiency than issues of security."
14:22:05 <elliott_> [[# Given the above, NIST didn’t have much to go on, with regard to security, in making their decision. They even made what I find to be an unusual statement in their announcement: “in some cases [we] did not select algorithms … largely because something about them made us ‘nervous,’ even though we knew of no clear attack”.]]
14:22:27 <Vorpal> elliott_, down?
14:22:38 <elliott_> Vorpal: Seems so. I'll come there with bukkits of lurva.
14:22:48 <Vorpal> elliott_, no thanks :P
14:22:58 <elliott_> Vorpal: Obsidian, dude!
14:23:29 <Vorpal> elliott_, well, will do other stuff for a while. And only I know the font.
14:23:53 <elliott_> Vorpal: I'd just donate the bukkits.
14:24:28 <Vorpal> elliott_, you realise how much you would need? the V alone is 9 blocks
14:24:46 <Vorpal> O is considerably more. Besides the scaffolding for that would be large
14:24:58 <Vorpal> (to prevent lava going everywhere
14:25:17 <Vorpal> bbl, going to make food now
14:26:49 <Phantom_Hoover> ineiros, ping
14:28:32 <elliott_> Vorpal: You just need to make a 3D O shell, fill it with water, and put lava there.
14:42:46 <elliott_> ugh oklopol isn't here
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15:13:16 <oerjan> <quintopia> what are the top N channels? i can't even begin to guess
15:13:25 <oerjan> http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/?net=freenode has a list
15:14:02 <elliott_> memetech.com is still down
15:14:36 <oerjan> #ubuntu, #debian, #archlinux, #gentoo, #python, #git, #jquery, #haskell, ##c++, #perl i think
15:14:41 <quintopia> oerjan: i saw the whole discussion above already, thanks
15:14:56 <oerjan> wait there was a discussion?
15:15:21 * oerjan was still on yesterday's logs
15:15:23 <quintopia> fizzie said the same things you just said
15:15:32 <quintopia> two hours ago
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15:17:45 <oerjan> HOW RUDE
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15:20:30 <quintopia> people should really make all their responses to logs in a separate file as they read, and then post them all at once when they reach the present moment...
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15:23:24 <elliott_> quintopia: whine whine, we do it this way and we like it
15:23:58 <quintopia> elliott_: ah. that's good then.
15:24:10 <elliott_> buffered IO is more work
15:24:12 <elliott_> :)
15:25:21 <quintopia> meh, i don't care much. i just think it must be embarassing to be ninja'd by hours...
15:27:14 <elliott_> psht, just being in this shithole is embarrassing!
15:28:23 <quintopia> elliott_: true. but it's really not worth any effort to reduce the amount of shit here. best to come up with more and more ways to add to the shitpile.
15:29:03 <elliott_> inDEED
15:31:12 * elliott_ ups his font size in an effort to become friends with his eyes once again
15:34:05 <ais523> hmm, I just wrote the following: "void* with_rng_state_saved(func, data) void* (*func)(void*); void* data; {"
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15:34:17 <ais523> there is something so wrong about functional programming in K&R C
15:34:25 <elliott_> ais523: is NetHack K&R or something? :)
15:34:33 <ais523> indeed
15:34:43 <elliott_> ais523: I'd make it a macro.
15:34:49 <ais523> NetHack: 1987; C89: 1989
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15:35:53 <elliott_> ais523: #define DO_with_rng_state_saved(q) do { rng_state *foo = current_rng_state(); {q;}; restore_rng_state(foo); } while (0)
15:35:54 <elliott_> something like that
15:36:00 <elliott_> DO just to mark it as a macro without shouting the whole thing
15:36:06 <ais523> hmm, perhaps
15:36:10 <elliott_> usage:
15:36:10 <elliott_> DO_with_rng_state_saved(
15:36:12 <elliott_> ...
15:36:14 <elliott_> );
15:36:26 <ais523> elliott_: issue with there is not writing any commas in what might be quite a complicated function
15:36:33 <ais523> *issue with that
15:36:38 <elliott_> ais523: you can solve that in various ways
15:36:40 <ais523> indeed
15:36:46 <elliott_> ais523: by calling the macro as DO_with_rng_state_saved((...))
15:36:53 <elliott_> and tweaking it slightly
15:36:54 <ais523> then you can't use semicolons
15:37:02 <ais523> unless you use gcc extensions
15:37:07 <ais523> and IMO, gcc extensions and K&R C don't mix
15:37:18 <ais523> (not because you can't do it, just because it's an abomination)
15:37:28 <elliott_> ais523: and, it's just that constructing functions in C is irritating, and also, you have to separate the code from where it happens
15:37:31 <elliott_> which doesn't really aid reading
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15:38:05 <ais523> it's not too bad, because I'm doing it in two consecutive functions, the second of which is mostly a wrapper
15:38:08 <elliott_> ais523: hmm... what about
15:38:16 <elliott_> WITH_RNG_STATE_SAVED {
15:38:18 <elliott_> ...
15:38:20 <elliott_> } END_SAVE_RNG
15:38:24 <ais523> also, macros are the wrong tool for this
15:38:34 <ais523> functions are clearly "better"
15:38:35 <elliott_> ais523: Cpp macros are, yes :)
15:38:42 <elliott_> ais523: what it really wants is a Lisp macro
15:39:01 <ais523> Lisp macros always strike me as fundamentally impure and awkward
15:39:07 <ais523> as they work syntactically rather than semantically
15:39:13 <elliott_> ais523: that's the whole /point/
15:39:19 <elliott_> ais523: with Lisp, the syntax and semantics are closely linked
15:39:45 <ais523> yes, I think that's a huge negative for a language
15:39:48 <elliott_> ais523: have you looked at Scheme's hygenic macros?
15:39:52 <elliott_> they're much nicer
15:40:02 <ais523> it's actually almost what inspired Underlambda
15:40:09 <ais523> which is pretty much syntax-independent
15:40:11 <elliott_> what, scheme macros?
15:40:26 <ais523> no, wanting to not link syntax and semantics
15:40:29 <ais523> like Underload does
15:40:53 <elliott_> ais523: clearly, we need to define Abstract Semantic Trees
15:41:07 * elliott_ 's brain flags up a warning sign: that actually sounds like a good idea
15:41:11 <elliott_> looks like we're straying off topic!
15:41:22 <ais523> good ideas aren't offtopic
15:41:28 <elliott_> well, no, but close :)
15:41:30 <ais523> as long as they're sufficiently eso
15:42:08 <elliott_> ais523: I'd just like to say that I highly recommend 12pt fonts on small, high-PPI laptop screens like we have.
15:42:09 <elliott_> this is nice.
15:42:11 <oerjan> elliott_: sounds to me like you're summoning augur :D
15:42:20 <elliott_> oerjan: oh dear :D
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15:42:36 * oerjan actually did that now, didn't he :D
15:42:36 <augur> I AWAKEN
15:42:43 <elliott> AIIIIIEEEEEEEEEE
15:43:31 <elliott> ais523: the problem with abstract semantic trees is that for all programs, P,Q, eval(P)=eval(Q) must => ASemT of P = ASemT of Q
15:43:38 <elliott> so they're not computable, *unless* you restrict the operations on them
15:44:02 <elliott> so that for every ASemT P' and Q' of programs P and Q, eval(P)=eval(Q) => f(P')=f(Q') for all f
15:48:13 <elliott> ais523: do you know a way to get the GNOME menu to only show the generic names of applications, not their brand name too? it's irritating me that a bunch of applications have an irrelevant name on top of them
15:48:32 <elliott> ("Pidgin Instant Messenger" vs. "Instant Messenger", etc.)
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16:00:23 <elliott> wb ais523
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16:05:57 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, would you prefer "gimp" or "image editor"? And what about gimp vs. krita then (both are image editors)
16:06:17 <Vorpal> of course, if you have no more than one of any type of application installed
16:06:37 <elliott> Vorpal: "GNU Image Manipulation Program"? :P But yes, disambiguation is required, it's just one of those niggles.
16:06:59 <elliott> I'd probably rename GIMP to "Image Editor" and Krita to just "Krita" if I used both but GIMP more often. Admittedly that is not a very future-proof solution.
16:07:06 <elliott> Or automatic, either.
16:07:13 <Vorpal> indeed
16:07:22 <elliott> But my menus are a bit daunting, so I'm decluttering them.
16:07:31 <Vorpal> mine just say "Gimp" and so on
16:07:49 <elliott> Vorpal: For instance "AisleRiot Solitaire", there's no reason not to have that as Solitaire really, since it's the GNOME desktop's official Solitaire program.
16:08:07 <elliott> And also it's a little confusing, I wondered "what game is AisleRiot?" the first time Is aw it.
16:10:55 <Vorpal> elliott, gconf-editor failure: "long description: Project-Id-Version: gnome-panel Report-Msgid-Bugs-To: POT-Creation-Date: 2010-07-27 00:02+0200 PO-Revision-Date: [... lots more ...]"
16:10:58 <Vorpal> for some setting
16:11:32 <elliott> Vorpal: :D
16:12:07 <Vorpal> elliott, very strange that the UI is in English but some key descs are in Swedish
16:12:15 <Vorpal> (some are however in English)
16:12:25 <Vorpal> since the UI on this machine is set to English I find this very strange
16:12:47 <Vorpal> oh nice, this one has different languages for short and long desc
16:13:04 <zzo38> Does any METAFONT-like music program exist?
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16:15:33 * elliott wonders what Inkscape's generic name is
16:15:38 <elliott> Scalable Drawing Editor?
16:15:42 <elliott> Scalable Graphics Editor?
16:17:03 <elliott> hmm
16:17:20 <elliott> I can't figure out what the difference between Applications → System Tools and System → Administration is meant to be
16:17:24 <elliott> local vs. global? that doesn't really fit
16:17:47 <Deewiant> Information vs. modification or something like that?
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16:18:37 <elliott> Deewiant: Nope; System Tools has Configuration Editor.
16:18:50 <elliott> (Most things in Administration are modification, but not all.)
16:19:24 <zzo38> But I think GF-Magick is better than Inkscape and GIMP?
16:20:37 <elliott> I disagree!
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16:22:04 <elliott> Pidgin calls itself Pidgin Internet Messenger, not Pidgin Instant Messenger. Interesting.
16:22:17 <Vorpal> elliott, system → admin I think is gnome settings for system stuff. contrast with system → preferences
16:22:32 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, but what is Applications → System Tools then?
16:22:49 <Vorpal> elliott, ones that doesn't show up in the gnome control center?
16:22:58 <Vorpal> elliott, since the ones under system → admin do
16:23:01 * oerjan assumes it has bloated so much it is no longer instant
16:23:06 <elliott> Vorpal: you think that's a worthy distinction? :)
16:23:15 <elliott> Vorpal: The Control Centre is basically hidden out of sight nowadays anyway.
16:23:19 <elliott> Getting to it is non-trivial.
16:23:22 <Vorpal> elliott, Applications → system tools contain stuff like wireshark and other non-settings thingies
16:23:29 <Vorpal> elliott, gparted too there
16:23:41 <Vorpal> gconf-editor is in system tools too for me
16:23:42 <elliott> Vorpal: it also contains Configuration Editor. also, GParted here in in System → Administration
16:23:51 <elliott> Conclusion: Nobody knows what the fuck the difference is meant to be.
16:23:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I have control center right there in the system menu
16:24:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think I added it manually
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16:24:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Ubuntu?
16:24:44 <elliott> Or what?
16:24:58 <elliott> Anyway the Control Centre is a rather rubbish version of a menu. :)
16:25:15 <Deewiant> Stuff that requires root privileges vs. stuff that doesn't? :-P
16:25:57 <elliott> Deewiant: That's actually vaguely plausible, but not a very relevant distinction; e.g. just because Disk Utility doesn't require root to show information, doesn't mean it isn't system-wide.
16:26:04 <Deewiant> If it's nothing else it's probably something similar to regular vs. power user distinction
16:26:31 <elliott> Deewiant: What, Configuration Editor isn't a power-user tool?
16:26:47 <Vorpal> elliott, both on ubuntu and arch
16:26:47 <Deewiant> I don't what Configuration Editor is, so I can't answer that question
16:26:49 <elliott> Or if you mean the other way around: the Services settings?
16:26:51 <Deewiant> +know
16:26:52 <elliott> Deewiant: gconf-editor.
16:26:58 <elliott> Deewiant: Think regedit, except less annoying to use.
16:27:00 <Vorpal> elliott, neither install is brand new
16:27:01 <Deewiant> I don't know what gconf-editor does
16:27:01 <elliott> Where GNOME settings go to die.
16:27:02 <Deewiant> Alright
16:27:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, Ubuntu hasn't had the Control Centre visible in forever (years).
16:27:26 <elliott> It *may* be in stock GNOME; dunno.
16:27:32 <Deewiant> Well, then it's probably not that either, which is a bit surprising
16:27:52 <Vorpal> elliott, well, on my ubuntu system it dates back to jaunty
16:27:54 <elliott> Deewiant: I'm just moving everything in System Tools to either Administration or Accessories :P
16:27:58 <Vorpal> elliott, so maybe the default was different then?
16:28:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Not that I know of.
16:28:14 <Vorpal> elliott, huh
16:28:18 <elliott> Deewiant: Amusingly, Administration is in the top-level menu System, so one would think System Tools would at least be System → Tools.
16:28:41 <Vorpal> elliott, but System menu contains stuff like log out?
16:28:45 <elliott> I think System Tools is meant to be Accessories: The Expert Edition.
16:28:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes it does. And?
16:28:55 <elliott> (Not on recent Ubuntus, incidentally.)
16:28:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think it is a "real" menu in the sense that applications is
16:29:00 <elliott> Ubuntæ.
16:29:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes it is.
16:29:06 <Vorpal> elliott, recent = ?
16:29:06 <elliott> Vorpal: You can add things to it with the menu editor.
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16:29:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Recent = 10.04 onwards? Maybe 9.10 onwards.
16:29:19 <Vorpal> elliott, my lucid system has logout and such in the system menu
16:29:30 <Vorpal> elliott, it didn't back in jaunty
16:29:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, that's just because your upgrade botched *shrug*
16:29:37 <Vorpal> I know my arch always had it in system
16:29:51 <Vorpal> elliott, it did? haven't noticed in general
16:29:56 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.liberiangeek.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/photo_on_menu_thumb.png
16:30:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I have log out and shut down below that. But isn't that 10.10?
16:30:31 <Vorpal> hm maybe not
16:30:37 <Vorpal> (considering date)
16:30:48 <elliott> Vorpal: I've *used* Lucid, I know what it was :P
16:30:59 <elliott> Vorpal: You can tell it's not Maverick because it has that brown highlight, not orange.
16:31:03 <elliott> Beigey.
16:31:16 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I upgraded to lucid and switched back to clearlooks first thing :P
16:31:45 <Vorpal> elliott, also indeed, ubuntu has gparted in system -> admin
16:31:56 <elliott> Debian too.
16:32:01 <Vorpal> elliott, and in control-center too
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16:37:11 * elliott considers putting Emacs in every menu
16:38:05 * elliott renames Quadrapassel to Tetris
16:38:09 * elliott considers appending a (TM) sign
16:42:16 <zzo38> Is there anything wrong with GF-Magick? Is there anything wrong with Inkscape and GIMP?
16:43:26 <elliott> zzo38: They have completely different usage cases, as far as I am aware.
16:44:04 <elliott> # (Deletion log); 14:49 . . Keymaker (Talk | contribs) (deleted "Talk:Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php")
16:44:05 <zzo38> elliott: They do?
16:44:09 <elliott> ais523: will you hate me?
16:44:21 <elliott> zzo38: Sure; GF-Magick is a batch program, and Inkscape and GIMP are interactive editors.
16:46:53 <zzo38> elliott: Yes and that is the problem with those programs, that if you do it wrong, you have to do it over again, and even if you have a macro with calculation, you still have to click the point manually every time you change something.
16:47:27 <elliott> zzo38: Well, in my opinion they are much more suitable for creating and editing images than GF-Magick, because you can see what you're doing while you're doing it, and you don't have to plan ahead as much.
16:49:16 <Vorpal> elliott, static linking. Would it not be rather annoying when you have a security update in some commonly used library. Such as OpenSSL. Probably would take more time to get the update out too, since more stuff needs to be recompiled?
16:49:50 <elliott> Vorpal: I am sure you have raised this objection before as it is the first one *everyone* raises when hearing of static linking ... no?
16:50:00 <elliott> Vorpal: The answer is basically that
16:50:02 <elliott> erm
16:50:29 <elliott> Vorpal: The answer is basically that with symbol versioning, ABI breaks in libraries are *already* common and we have to go through situations like this. Additionally, it does not really help that much:
16:50:30 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't remember having mentioned it. Of course this does not apply to glibc and it's stupid versioned symbols. But to stuff like openssl it seems somewhat relevant
16:50:46 <Vorpal> elliott, openssl doesn't version symbols though
16:50:47 <elliott> With a decent distribution method -- think binary diffs here -- it does not actually take all that much bandwidth to transfer the new binaries.
16:51:00 <elliott> Maybe if you're on dial-up it would be a problem.
16:51:05 <Vorpal> elliott, but time on the compile farm before you can push out the upgrades?
16:51:32 <elliott> Vorpal: As far as compilation goes, any active, semi-large distro already regularly compiles many, many packages every day as part of the normal routine of things -- updates, simple time-based builds to check it still works, etc.
16:51:51 <elliott> Vorpal: Compile farms are fast. And the best part is, with static linking, they'll spend a lot less time running ld(1) ;-)
16:51:53 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but kitten will be a one man project for quite some time
16:51:59 <elliott> So quicker security updates!
16:52:15 <Vorpal> elliott, so slower since you don't yet have a huge compile farm
16:52:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Indeed it will. Small distros tend to not be so quick on the security updates. That's a risk you take.
16:52:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Of course I would endeavour to recompile all vulnerable packages ASAP.
16:52:26 <Vorpal> elliott, true
16:52:35 <elliott> But it might take three days or so to get everything pushed out.
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16:53:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, I don't plan to recompile for every new library update, as for things like new features and the like it really doesn't matter. I can easily update a library package without updating every program to be compiled with it.
16:53:17 <zzo38> If you do not plan ahead when making the drawing, you will make a mistake! And then you have to do it all over again.
16:53:18 <Vorpal> elliott, true
16:53:19 <elliott> Every now and then I'll rebuild every single package over the course of a week to bring in a new libc.
16:53:30 <elliott> zzo38: No, because with Inkscape and GIMP you can just fix your mistake.
16:53:32 <elliott> Or use undo.
16:54:03 <Vorpal> elliott, but for security issue in openssl that is quite a bit. Hm. *checks with ldd for binaries using openssl*
16:54:35 <elliott> Vorpal: I plan to avoid OpenSSL wherever I can.
16:54:46 <Vorpal> elliott, gnutls?
16:54:48 <elliott> Vorpal: I have seen a few too many code snippets to trust their sanity.
16:54:52 <elliott> Dunno about gnutls.
16:54:55 <elliott> I'll have to see.
16:55:02 <elliott> dropbear uses LibTomCrypt :P
16:55:03 <Vorpal> elliott, from what I remember it's API is actually somewhat saner
16:55:15 <Vorpal> elliott, ssh != ssl
16:55:17 <zzo38> elliott: Yes you can undo, of course. But can you put all the steps in one window and type equations in there, and keep them there with the drawing? (With SVG you can *almost* do so, but almost is not enough except for exploding hand grenades)
16:55:18 <elliott> Yeah, gnutls is probably my best bet.
16:55:20 <elliott> Vorpal: I know that.
16:55:34 <elliott> But IIRC There's a LibTomWhatever for that.
16:55:51 <elliott> Vorpal: /msg
16:55:53 <Vorpal> elliott, still, a lot of stuff only has code for openssl. Unless you plan to rewrite those I suspect you will need openssl
16:56:08 <elliott> Vorpal: gnutls is actually meant to be openssl-compatible ... *sort of*
16:56:16 <elliott> But yeah, openssl is probably a necessary evil.
16:56:24 <elliott> Don't say I didn't warn you if another vulnerability is found :)
16:57:03 <elliott> zzo38: "but almost is not enough except for exploding hand grenades" what?
16:58:52 <zzo38> elliott: O, it is just a metaphor. It can be safely ignored.
16:59:03 <elliott> zzo38: I'm not sure I quite understand that metaphor.
16:59:14 <zzo38> elliott: Then ignore it.
17:00:24 <zzo38> And just read the rest of the sentence by assuming the metaphorical part is not there.
17:05:57 <zzo38> (Even if it can, not all SVG rendering programs work the same way (some might not support all feature, or might be slow, you might have some fonts missing, etc), and it doesn't do the kind of contrast/hue/colorspace and those kind of things (Inkscape and GIMP are not the same program).)
17:08:34 <elliott> zzo38: What license is Enhanced CWEB under?
17:15:27 <zzo38> elliott: It is under the license that you are not allowed to call any derivative works just "CWEB" by itself, and that you must not change the license.
17:16:26 <zzo38> That is, it must be clear that it is not the standard CWEB.
17:16:58 <zzo38> (I included the comment at the top of each source file "% This is modified from standard CWEB." to make it more clearly)
17:17:53 <zzo38> Programs written with Enhanced CWEB can use whatever license you want to use, though. (I often use either the GNU GPL or public domain, depending on the program.)
17:20:17 <zzo38> Why do you want to know what the license is?
17:23:50 <elliott> zzo38: Just curious. I thought it was GPL.
17:25:34 <zzo38> It isn't. It is a free software license incompatible with the GPL. I believe the license only applies to the specific modules included in standard CWEB, not to external modules such as PicoC.
17:26:06 <zzo38> But if you want to use Enhanced CWEB to write your own programs, those programs can be GPL if you want it to.
17:27:42 <ais523> zzo38: it's compatible with GPL version 3; see clause 7c
17:28:51 <ais523> you're allowed to add a requirement "requiring that modified versions of such material be marked in reasonable ways as different from the original version"
17:29:02 <ais523> and requiring it to not have exactly the same name as the original version seems reasonable to me
17:29:38 <zzo38> ais523: OK let me see. OK I saw it. So I guess that means you are permitted to add modules licensed under the GPL, to the program, and link them together without license violations.
17:30:01 <ais523> I think so, too, as long as the modules don't require a version before 3
17:30:16 <zzo38> (I don't think you are allowed to relicense the CWEB modules though, because they specifically say you can't change the license)
17:30:53 <ais523> GPL version 3 had quite a few changes to make it more compatible with existing open source licenses
17:30:55 <zzo38> ais523: I agree with you that it is a reasonable requirement.
17:32:00 <zzo38> If I made a GPL'd software as part of a commercial project, I would certainly want to make that requirement.
17:36:24 <zzo38> Would it do to simply type "Option 7c of the GNU GPL v3 is selected" in the license notice, or is that not specific enough?
17:36:36 <ais523> I think it's not specific enough
17:37:33 <ais523> you'd say something like "As an additional restriction, you must give any derivative works a name other than just 'CWEB', to distinguish them from the original work."
17:38:24 <ais523> s/original work/original version/, may as well keep it as similar to the wording in GPLv3 as possible
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17:42:35 <zzo38> Is it allowed to make any of the options in section 7 to be conditionally applied, such as only for commercial use or whatever?
17:43:01 <elliott> That would be non-Free, I strongly believe.
17:43:09 <elliott> (Discrimination on the basis of field of endeavour.)
17:44:05 <zzo38> elliott: Maybe that makes it non-Open-Source, but for the Free-Software definition, such things are not explicit (whether they are important depends on certain things).
17:44:41 <elliott> zzo38: Well, it's non-Free according to the DFSG.
17:44:47 <elliott> So your software could not be included in Debian.
17:45:23 <zzo38> Of course I suppose the condition can be written as a separate license, and the separate license is deleted, then it is unconditional, so it can be used, then, I guess.
17:46:07 <zzo38> And anyways, I have no reason to add these kind of conditionally applied restrictions except in the case of software I would be writing as part of a commercial project, so it doesn't really need to be included in Debian anyways.
17:48:20 <zzo38> But writing the condition as a separate license probably helps.
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17:54:06 <zzo38> Similar to how the LGPL v3 is written as a separate license which adds extra permission to the GPL v3.
17:57:51 <zzo38> Do you agree with me that octal numbers are good for coding the patterns on a seven-segment display?
17:58:22 <zzo38> I hardly ever use octal, but it does have a few good uses.
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18:10:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, down?
18:10:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, no, as you would have noted if you could wait for more than two goddamn seconds before asking.
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18:15:24 <elliott> oh god
18:15:26 <elliott> Ubuntu Shop
18:15:26 <elliott> http://shop.canonical.com/
18:15:36 <elliott> http://shop.canonical.com/product_info.php?products_id=795 ha what
18:15:46 <elliott> "Ubuntu Mouse"
18:15:48 <elliott> http://shop.canonical.com/product_info.php?products_id=643
18:15:53 <elliott> why is it flat
18:15:58 <elliott> why does the ubuntu logo illuminate
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18:46:30 <Vorpal> elliott, down?
18:46:32 <elliott> Vorpal: dwon?
18:47:01 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know if d won anything
18:50:41 <pikhq> zzo38: Basically having such a conditional requirement only will work for the FSF's notion of "Free", and even then they will be damned annoyed by it.
18:51:38 <zzo38> pikhq: OK.
18:54:30 <zzo38> But it can be separate license for the condition this is you can stop being annoying by it?
18:55:58 <zzo38> There are some scripts using FurryScript, such as D&D adventure, video game names, TV plot, etc. Maybe you or someone else can have more ideas, such as news headlines, or mahjong, or something else?
18:56:29 <pikhq> Still annoying to the FSF for the licensing conditions to change based on whether or not you like money.
18:57:11 <zzo38> If it is a separate license, then you are allowed to tell the licensing conditions not to change, if that is what you prefer.
18:57:35 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, I feel I may regret this, but what is FurryScript?
18:58:00 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Probably the best way is to look at it http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/
18:58:25 <zzo38> There is no documentation yet, sorry. Just use the existing scripts as examples to base on
18:59:19 <zzo38> (Despite what some people think, it has nothing to do with pornography or Javascript.)
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19:04:11 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Did you regret this? Or do you have another question, because you did not understand it the first time?
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19:31:13 <Vorpal> elliott, down?
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19:47:20 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Did you manage to figure it out yet?
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20:08:51 <Vorpal> down?
20:13:54 <nooga> what's down?
20:23:23 <zzo38> The basement
20:48:56 <elliott> pikhq: Is there a NASM-portable way to get names for syscall numbers in a program?
20:49:08 <elliott> Don't want to run cpp on my program.
20:50:58 <olsner> apply sed to the relevant headers, massage into nasm syntax, use %include (if there is such a thing)
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20:51:21 <olsner> sed <3
20:51:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I just read about how C++ differentiate operator overloading of ++ prefix vs. ++ postfix
20:51:59 <Vorpal> UGH
20:52:13 <olsner> C++ [...] UGH
20:52:20 <olsner> are you surprised or something? :P
20:52:22 <Phantom_Hoover> http://wiki.sk89q.com/wiki/CraftBook#Usage
20:52:22 <fizzie> Oh, you mean the dummy argument?
20:52:26 <Vorpal> olsner, yes indeed. But this is worse than average
20:52:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed
20:52:35 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, remember your integrated circuit thing?
20:52:49 <fizzie> I think it's fantastic. Horrible, but somehow fantastic.
20:53:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, how?
20:53:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is like they left in a quick hack for testing during development. (the "sane" thing would have been to have operator++pre or something like that. Or a prefix/postfix keyword)
20:53:21 <olsner> fizzie: hmm, I don't really get that, how is it fantastic?
20:53:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how what?
20:53:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Does it differentiate?
20:53:46 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, remember your integrated circuit thing?
20:53:47 <elliott> Hm?
20:53:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it needs different function signatures. Right?
20:53:56 <fizzie> olsner: I don't know, it's just a subjective feeling.
20:54:03 <olsner> fizzie: fair enough
20:54:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so it passes an extra int dummy argument for postfix
20:54:10 * olsner still doesn't get it though :P
20:54:34 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, http://wiki.sk89q.com/wiki/CraftBook/ICs
20:54:43 <zzo38> I think the way operator overloading works in C++ is very dumb. I think many things in C++ are very dumb in general.
20:54:44 <fizzie> Incidentally, do you know if there is a defined value for the dummy argument, or is actually using it implementation-defined (or even undefined)?
20:54:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Definw how it's my integrated circuit thing.
20:54:56 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, not sure.
20:54:57 <elliott> *Define
20:55:18 <elliott> Wow, a PRNG.
20:55:50 <fizzie> Foo& Foo::operator++() { /* code for prefix */ return *this; } Foo Foo::operator++(int this_is_so_stupid) { /* code for postfix */ return whatever; } -- what's not to like!
20:56:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, bookshelves in some form.
20:56:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, ah, http://wiki.sk89q.com/wiki/CraftBook/Readable_bookshelves
20:57:47 <Vorpal> elliott, you could make a prng in redstone by making use of the timing issues of redstone on SMP :P
20:58:17 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Incidentally, do you know if there is a defined value for the dummy argument, or is actually using it implementation-defined (or even undefined)? <-- no idea. one source says "constant dummy value"
20:58:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's a server mod though.
20:58:22 <elliott> Or are all of these server mods?
20:58:23 <fizzie> Ah, the dummy argument is defined to have a value of 0 when the postfix code is called. I'd like to know how much code there is in the world that actually relies on that value. :p
20:58:30 <elliott> Oh, they are.
20:58:31 <elliott> L A M E
20:58:34 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, not so much server mods as plugins to hMod.
20:58:49 <elliott> I thought it was an actual redstone PRNG.
20:58:55 <Phantom_Hoover> So they can be installed while it was running.
20:59:06 <fizzie> (ISO/IEC 14882:2003(E) 13.5.7 para 1: "When the postfix increment is called as a result of using the ++ operator, the int argument will have value zero.125)"
20:59:14 <Vorpal> elliott, lame indeed
20:59:29 <fizzie> "125) Calling operator++ explicitly, as in expressions like a.operator++(2), has no special properties: The argument to operator++ is 2.")
20:59:45 <olsner> fizzie: ooh, that implies that you can call it explicitly with a non-zero value :)
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20:59:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, wait, it isn't an hMod plugin. Forget it.
20:59:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if you was to decide it would no longer be minecraft that we ran. But some sort of blinkenlightcraftbling
21:00:00 <olsner> foo->operator++(7) or something like that
21:00:08 <fizzie> olsner: Right, that's the second line I pasted.
21:00:16 <Phantom_Hoover> WaitI'mnotsureanymore
21:00:38 <olsner> fizzie: doh, missed that :)
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21:01:01 <Vorpal> <olsner> fizzie: ooh, that implies that you can call it explicitly with a non-zero value :) <-- you can explicitly call operations in C++ iirc. Except for the classical C types
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21:01:06 <elliott> it should be a void argument
21:01:08 <Vorpal> operators*
21:01:09 <elliott> operator++(void x)
21:01:10 <elliott> :D
21:01:15 <elliott> that you're not allowed to use, except as
21:01:17 <elliott> x;
21:01:19 <elliott> or
21:01:20 <elliott> (void) x;
21:01:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: Right, again, that was the second line I pasted.
21:01:33 <elliott> then you could do
21:01:39 <elliott> foo->operator++(function_returning_void())
21:01:40 <elliott> see!
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21:01:58 <elliott> Bonus points for not allowing a void value/argument ANYWHERE but in operator++.
21:02:10 <elliott> And yet having (void) in a declaration imply one void argument, thus making every C89 header ever invalid.
21:02:19 <elliott> Especially since the only time you could use that in a declaration would be for operator++.
21:02:42 <olsner> maybe if you also add an empty expression and make it have a void type :D
21:03:30 <olsner> so that calling foo(), where foo is declared foo(void) actually calls it with one void argument
21:04:30 <elliott> olsner: no, the syntax for a void argument is (;)
21:04:36 <elliott> since the null statement results in a void value
21:04:41 <olsner> haha, ok
21:04:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, C++ apparently left out operator** to simplify parsing. How utterly ironic
21:04:43 <elliott> foo->operator++((;))
21:04:50 <olsner> but statements don't have values, stupid
21:04:58 <olsner> the empty *expression* has a value :)
21:05:00 <Vorpal> elliott, you might like that irony too
21:05:15 <elliott> olsner: when has C++ ever been logical?
21:05:16 <olsner> the empty statement is simply an expression statement evaluating the empty expression!
21:05:25 <elliott> olsner: I don't suppose you have a nasm struct declaration for an ELF header? :p
21:05:29 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:05:33 <olsner> elliott: I do not, no
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21:06:20 <olsner> elliott: I won't have ELF in my OS, I'll just have a jump-to-first-byte binary format - considering making the "magic" value an x86 jmp instruction :D
21:06:53 <elliott> olsner: who needs a magic value!
21:06:57 <elliott> execute anything you're told to
21:07:07 <olsner> dunno, but I think hashbang is useful enough to keep around
21:07:35 <olsner> and probably pluggable loaders too, since that should allow me to support ELF too in theory
21:07:37 <elliott> olsner: psht, do what the commodore 64 did (sort of); instead of hashbangs, use some assembly code that does exec(interp, myfilename)
21:07:52 <elliott> olsner: then just have a compiler that turns #!foo at the start of a file to a program with that at the top!
21:08:16 <olsner> hashbang is useful because it's in ASCII, you don't need a binary editor to edit shell scripts
21:08:22 <olsner> but sure, that can be done
21:08:24 <zzo38> elliott: Then you have to compile it on every computer, the file won't just run on all computer, but it can still work, I guess.
21:08:28 <elliott> olsner: you can do x86 code in ascii, just ask ais523
21:08:32 <olsner> also, having the shell recognize hashbangs works
21:08:35 <elliott> he wrote a self-uudecoder program in entirely ascii
21:08:39 <elliott> olsner: not really, exec()
21:08:42 <elliott> e.g. what does init do
21:09:42 <zzo38> The jump to first byte format can work, maybe similar to .COM format, it can load the PSP (program segment prefix).
21:09:44 <olsner> IMO, init can be limited to the set of binary formats actually supported by the vanilla kernel
21:09:46 <elliott> fizzie: nasm-mode is supremely irritating for structures :P
21:09:53 <elliott> olsner: no, I mean, init scripts
21:09:58 <elliott> the scripts that init calls
21:10:04 <elliott> with exec()
21:10:07 <elliott> they could be in any language :)
21:10:58 <olsner> well, they just need to be something that init can execute, and init doesn't necessarily use exec(), and exec() doesn't necessarily even exist
21:11:47 <Vorpal> what, C++ allows overloading the comma operator?!
21:11:51 <Vorpal> how does that even make sense
21:12:01 <Vorpal> (well of course C++ isn't required to make sense)
21:12:10 <Vorpal> (but here I meant "how can that even have a meaning")
21:12:20 <olsner> comma operator overloading is hardly the most weird part of C++ even :P
21:12:38 <olsner> it's easy, it's a binary operator, you can make it do whatever you want
21:12:46 <Vorpal> olsner, oooh, the comma operator does the dummy int too
21:12:55 <Vorpal> wait
21:12:56 <Vorpal> what
21:13:00 <zzo38> I still think it doesn't make sense to overload the comma operator, though.
21:13:15 <Vorpal> it is binary but exists in prefix and postfix
21:13:18 <Vorpal> what the fuck
21:14:20 <Vorpal> olsner, it isn't even like the comma operator is commonly used in C... I mean, to stuff into for (...) or while (...) is the only common usage afaik
21:14:59 <Vorpal> hm you can overload ->....
21:15:06 <Vorpal> how do you handle this-> then
21:15:12 <olsner> it is not used a lot, no... maybe for corner cases like sequencing into a single statement or to do something similar to statement expressions
21:15:22 <olsner> Vorpal: this-> doesn't invoke the overload
21:15:28 <Vorpal> olsner, how boring :P
21:15:33 <olsner> this is a pointer to Foo, not a Foo
21:15:40 <Vorpal> oh right
21:15:45 <Vorpal> olsner, so this->->?
21:15:46 <olsner> but it is often used to implement classes that behave like pointers
21:15:47 <Vorpal> wait no
21:15:53 <Vorpal> (*this)->
21:15:57 <Vorpal> how silly
21:16:05 <Sgeo> Why would you ever do that?
21:16:07 <olsner> smart pointers, handles, etc
21:16:08 <Sgeo> Just for the syle?
21:16:12 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what
21:16:23 <Sgeo> Wait, n/m
21:16:35 <Sgeo> Wait, how can this ever be a **?
21:16:47 <Sgeo> Wait, this is C, right?
21:16:59 <olsner> Wait, Sgeo is lost, right?
21:17:25 <olsner> still C++: vorpal is reading about C++ and finding things he find weird :)
21:17:42 <elliott> olsner: C/C++!
21:17:45 * elliott mauled
21:18:03 <olsner> elliott: no, this is *well* into the C++-only part of C/C++
21:18:04 <Vorpal> olsner, only because a course uses it
21:18:08 <elliott> i'm translating http://www.sco.com/developers/gabi/1998-04-29/ch4.eheader.html (lolol sco.com yeah yeah) to nasm and it's a pain :)
21:18:10 <elliott> olsner: i was joking
21:18:14 <olsner> elliott: oh, ok
21:18:18 <Sgeo> Ok then. Why would this ever be a **?
21:18:25 <olsner> Sgeo: it isn't
21:18:33 <olsner> Why would you ever ask? :P
21:18:44 <Sgeo> (*this)->
21:19:23 <olsner> this is a pointer to Foo, (*this) is a Foo, Foo presumably has an overloaded -> operator, it gets called
21:19:48 <Sgeo> Ah
21:19:55 <elliott> writing your own elf header is a bitch
21:20:31 <Sgeo> Next, someone will tell me that * and & (as deref and ref) can be overloaded
21:20:37 <olsner> the operator would then return a pointer to Bar, and the name that comes after -> is then resolved as a member of Bar
21:20:38 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yes.
21:20:41 <Sgeo> [or did I get the names backwards?]
21:20:42 <olsner> Sgeo: they can
21:20:48 <Sgeo> o.O
21:21:17 <fizzie> The times I've written ELF headers in NASM, I've just done it with commented db/dw/dd lines. (Possibly because I haven't ever bothered with NASMs struct macros anyway.)
21:21:18 <olsner> *but*, as before, this is a pointer so *this always gets the default operator* (the one that takes a pointer type)
21:21:30 * Sgeo wonders what the utility of fake pointers is
21:21:43 <olsner> *(*this) however, could invoke an overloaded operator
21:21:52 <Vorpal> hm
21:21:58 <Vorpal> new[] could overflow couldn't it?
21:22:12 <olsner> Sgeo: well, smart pointers and such things
21:22:16 <Vorpal> if the size of the object * the number of objects to allocate > SIZE_T_MAX
21:22:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, ^
21:22:30 <fizzie> As much as calloc, I would say.
21:22:32 <Vorpal> I wonder if that will be a compile time error
21:22:33 <olsner> I think you're supposed to check for that
21:22:40 <pikhq> Sgeo: You can also overload cast to void*.
21:22:57 <Vorpal> olsner, "you" as the programmer check for that size? Or "you" as compiler writer?
21:23:04 * olsner gets a vaguely uneasy feeling his new[] overloads and calloc implementations don't check this
21:23:09 <Sgeo> Can you overload other casts? Or add your own casts?
21:23:15 <Vorpal> olsner, wait, why do you use C++ ?
21:23:18 <olsner> Vorpal: the one implementing new[] that is
21:23:31 <olsner> if it's too big, return null or throw bad_alloc
21:23:46 <Vorpal> olsner, won't throwing an exception allocate memory btw?
21:23:53 <pikhq> Sgeo: Hmm. Yes, you can.
21:24:02 <pikhq> operator name_of_type()
21:24:03 <Vorpal> olsner, which is bad for OOM
21:24:08 <olsner> Vorpal: only if you heap-allocate the exception, I don't think you usually do that
21:24:14 <olsner> you stack-allocate it instead
21:24:24 <olsner> but I have never ever used exceptions in C++
21:24:36 <Vorpal> olsner, won't that be invalid when the function returns?
21:24:44 <Vorpal> olsner, even if it returns by exception that is
21:24:55 <olsner> but it doesn't return, it throws an exception, and then magic happens
21:25:20 <fizzie> If you catch by value, it's even intuitively okay.
21:25:27 <Vorpal> olsner, so... surely the stack frame must be cleared up, and then signal handlers could clobber it
21:25:39 <fizzie> But I think catching by reference is sort-of allowed too.
21:25:48 <Vorpal> I don't get how this could possibly work
21:25:56 <Vorpal> copy to reserved area
21:25:59 <olsner> stack frames, signal handlers, these things don't even exist in C++'s semantics afaik :)
21:26:01 <Vorpal> but then, what about size of the thing
21:26:11 <Vorpal> olsner, stack frames must, at some level
21:26:19 <Vorpal> olsner, and even plain C89 has signals iirc
21:26:21 <olsner> not in the language, maybe in the implementation :D
21:26:28 <fizzie> It's a very abstract level.
21:26:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, #include <csignal> I presume works
21:26:48 <Vorpal> so uh...
21:26:56 <Vorpal> surely they realised this must be handled
21:27:13 <pikhq> Uuuh, signals are a POSIXism.
21:27:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, they are in C99. I checked
21:27:22 <olsner> signals are too unixy to exist in C/C++ - for one Windows doesn't ever do signals
21:27:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, just SIGFPE and SIGABRT iirc
21:27:58 <pikhq> Ah, right, they did add signals to C, didn't they.
21:28:05 <pikhq> So they must exist in C++.
21:28:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, I don't have a copy of C89 so can't check it
21:28:40 <olsner> anyway, if exception handlers don't allocate new stack space until after the exception object has died, it'll be fine... but I wonder what happens if you catch by reference and call some functions
21:28:41 <fizzie> You could just specify that signals during exception handling use a different stack or something. Or run the exception handler before the stack actually gets properly unwound, I'm sure that's doable (if messy) too.
21:28:42 <Vorpal> well
21:28:47 <Vorpal> man page of signal(2) says
21:28:50 <Vorpal> C89, C99, POSIX.1-2001.
21:28:54 <Vorpal> in conforming to
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21:29:23 <olsner> *it'll be fine as long as you don't unwind the stack until after you've run the exception handler(s)
21:29:54 <elliott> C++ isn't based on C99
21:29:58 <elliott> so no, they mustn't exist in C++
21:30:01 <pikhq> elliott: Is based on C89.
21:30:13 <elliott> pikhq: based on, yes, but not as a standard
21:30:20 <elliott> the C++ spec doesn't go "this is a delta to C89 that defers to it"
21:30:23 <Vorpal> wait, post increment operator needs to return previous value?
21:30:24 <Vorpal> what
21:30:28 <elliott> if it doesn't mention signals in the PDF, it's not part of C++
21:30:33 <pikhq> elliott: True, true.
21:30:38 <pikhq> elliott: That's only POSIX.
21:30:47 <Vorpal> shouldn't it just be called *AFTER*
21:31:04 <olsner> I wonder if you could say that signal "conforms to" C99 also if C99 doesn't include the signal function, as in saying any function you've written in pure C99 conforms to it
21:31:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's not proper overloading if you can't completely specify the return value to whatever.
21:31:45 <olsner> that is to say: "conforms to? what does that EVEN MEAN?"
21:32:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, so it isn't just syntax sugar then... It needs to act insane
21:32:23 <fizzie> If you just always returned the object it's called on, then you could only use postfix ++ for "postfixy" things.
21:32:39 <fizzie> Now you can use it for any operation you want.
21:32:39 <olsner> Vorpal: not insane, it just needs to act as the normal postfix-increment operator or your users will go mad
21:32:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, patently good idea!
21:32:47 <fizzie> See, flexibility!
21:32:49 <Vorpal> (to only allow postfixy uses)
21:33:35 <Vorpal> olsner, "act insane" = "make a deep copy of the object to return, then modify the original one"
21:33:39 <Vorpal> olsner, is what I'm saying
21:34:53 <fizzie> They're just trusting their magical optimizing compilers to optimize away the copies.
21:35:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, that would be a good trick. I have a feeling this would entail solving the halting problem to handle for the general case.
21:36:05 <Vorpal> (I'm not sure though)
21:36:27 <olsner> this would all make perfect sense to you if you were sufficiently damaged by C++
21:36:35 <olsner> (as it does to me)
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21:36:53 <Vorpal> olsner, why have you exposed yourself to so much C++
21:36:58 <Vorpal> olsner, surely you must hate the language
21:37:11 <Vorpal> hm is delete NULL; valid?
21:37:15 <Vorpal> after all, free(NULL) is
21:37:19 <olsner> yeah, it's a no-op
21:38:10 <olsner> or, hrm, literally "delete NULL;" might not be valid because delete on a void-pointer is undefined
21:39:17 <Vorpal> olsner, I meant literally yes
21:40:48 <olsner> well, written literally, it's a damned stupid thing to do and best removed by nothing or a better no-op :)
21:40:57 <elliott> yeah
21:41:02 <elliott> like __asm__("nop")
21:41:05 <elliott> :P
21:41:47 <Vorpal> olsner, actually tried it. error: type long int argument given to delete, expected pointer
21:41:52 <Vorpal> not what I expected
21:42:05 <elliott> delete (void *)NULL;
21:42:06 <elliott> try that
21:42:26 <Vorpal> elliott, tells me that delete of void* pointer is undefined
21:42:34 <elliott> Vorpal: delete (char *)NULL;
21:42:56 <Vorpal> elliott, the void* thing was just a warning though
21:42:58 <Vorpal> elliott, not an error
21:42:59 <Vorpal> :D
21:43:00 <fizzie> "-- if the value of the oeprand of delete is the null pointer the operation has no effect."
21:43:04 <fizzie> So that shouldn't be an error.
21:43:09 <elliott> Oeprand.
21:43:12 <fizzie> The void thing is prohibited, though.
21:43:12 <elliott> Is that really in the spec?
21:43:22 <fizzie> No, I'm typing because the PDF-paste often messes things up.
21:43:22 <Sgeo> That conventional space between char and * irritates my eyes
21:43:33 <Sgeo> Is it really because of the int* a, b; thing??
21:43:33 <olsner> fizzie: *but* doesn't the null pointer and void thing interact?
21:43:38 <Sgeo> s/\?\?/?/
21:43:50 <olsner> which takes precedence - is deleting a null void-pointer a no-op or undefined? :)
21:44:06 <elliott> Sgeo: It's also because of declaration-mirrors-use.
21:44:10 <elliott> int *a;
21:44:11 <elliott> *a = 3;
21:44:12 <elliott> See?
21:44:17 <fizzie> olsner: Not really, since the null-pointer thing was when the expression has a valid type.
21:44:22 <Vorpal> elliott, it seems to have been optimised away at -O0 by gcc
21:44:24 <Vorpal> how weird
21:44:38 <Vorpal> -O0 shouldn't do that
21:44:39 <fizzie> Or, hmm.
21:44:51 <fizzie> It's only about deleting an incomplete class type.
21:45:00 <Sgeo> Doesn't really work that well with C++'s reference types, which must die a horrible death
21:45:45 <elliott> Sgeo: ...what's wrong with them?
21:46:19 <Sgeo> They seem a bit magical. Assign to them once, followed by a subsequent assign.. those assigns do two different things
21:46:33 <fizzie> Initialization != assignment.
21:46:55 <elliott> what fizzie said
21:47:01 <olsner> what elliott said
21:47:05 <elliott> what olsner said
21:47:09 <olsner> what elliott said
21:47:13 <elliott> what fizzie said
21:47:31 <olsner> wait, no, what I said
21:48:29 <Vorpal> uh
21:48:55 <Vorpal> you can't see if the thing will be modified with references
21:49:03 <Vorpal> without checking the declaration of the function
21:49:04 <Vorpal> consider:
21:49:06 <Vorpal> int i;
21:49:10 <Vorpal> i = 4;
21:49:13 <Vorpal> foo(i)
21:49:30 <Vorpal> and then consider: foo(int x) vs. foo(int &x)
21:50:04 <Vorpal> C# actually gets that right, it requires ref keyword both in function "prototype" and in the call to the function
21:50:33 <Vorpal> elliott, hence C++ references needs to die.
21:51:50 <Gregor> C++'s references were most assuredly a mistake.
21:52:10 <Gregor> Aside from being totally redundant with pointers, they make function calls super-confusing since you can't tell what's what.
21:52:15 <Gregor> But you all know that :P
21:52:46 <olsner> bah, I'm not so sure everyone knows that :P
21:53:36 * oerjan didn't know :D
21:53:49 <oerjan> not knowing C++ almost at all helps with that
21:54:07 <Gregor> oerjan: I switch back and forth from C++ to JavaScript every day 8-D
21:54:14 <olsner> some people think "but omg, references, like, optimization! and stuff!", but references are really exactly like pointers except *possibly* if something gets inlined (and then I believe references and pointers are just as optimizable anyway)
21:54:23 <oerjan> Gregor: and your brain has not been completely fried yet?
21:54:43 <Gregor> oerjan: Have you seen pictures of me?
21:54:44 <Gregor> :P
21:55:07 <elliott> Who designed ELF, can I shoot them?
21:55:13 <elliott> It's so freakin' complex X_X
21:55:13 <oerjan> Gregor: i realized that after i spoke. ok, i retract my previous line.
21:56:11 <Gregor> elliott: HEY
21:56:17 <Gregor> elliott: ELF is fucking AWESOME.
21:56:26 <Gregor> elliott: And why are you trapped in the land of ELFs?
21:56:36 <olsner> *elves
21:56:42 <Gregor> *ELFs
21:56:48 <oerjan> he was probably led there by a GNOME
21:56:49 <elliott> Gregor: I've decided that the only way my wimpy coreutils efforts can possibly compete with asmutils is to... , so yeah, I'm writing elf.inc right now with all the ELF header structures.
21:56:54 <elliott> And I will define macros to assemble them manually :P
21:56:56 <olsner> Gregor: ELVes then :D
21:57:01 <elliott> But SHEESH there is a lot of crap here.
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21:58:20 <Gregor> elliott: That ... explained nothing.
21:58:40 <elliott> Gregor: ld generates big executables. So I'm assembling in a custom ELF header.
21:58:47 <elliott> Which involves defining the ELF structures in nasm.
21:59:03 <elliott> (Big = almost 300 bytes when stripped!)
21:59:56 -!- Sasha has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:00:45 <elliott> Gregor: Explained? :P
22:00:54 <oerjan> so it should have been called GIANT then?
22:01:01 * elliott swats oerjan
22:01:07 <elliott> with an invisible swatter obvs
22:01:12 -!- Sasha has joined.
22:01:14 <Gregor> elliott: For some definition of "explained"
22:01:34 <elliott> Gregor: WHY ARE SECTION HEADERS SO HUGE
22:01:40 <oerjan> that's actually plausible given that putty shows unknown unicode as space to me
22:02:29 <oerjan> although clog sees and reveals all. well almost all.
22:02:50 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:03:08 <Gregor> elliott: PornograFREE.
22:03:23 <elliott> Gregor: What.
22:03:26 <oerjan> porn wants to be free
22:03:49 <oerjan> this is of course a corollary to porn being information
22:03:54 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:05:00 <Sgeo> Keys are information
22:05:20 <elliott> information wants to pee
22:05:36 <Gregor> Information wants to be Cree.
22:05:37 <olsner> ... and according to rule 34/35, information is porn
22:06:13 <Sgeo> The leaked diplomatic cables are SO HOT
22:07:38 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, what's the correlation between that and its Kolmogorov complexity?
22:07:41 <oerjan> ...what's rule 35
22:08:11 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: over 9000
22:08:35 <olsner> oerjan: the one about if there's no porn of it, it must be made (no exceptions)
22:08:55 <oerjan> ok
22:09:45 <olsner> i.e. the rule that makes sure rule #34 always applies even when it doesn't (didn't)
22:09:58 <elliott> <olsner> oerjan: the one about if there's no porn of it, it must be made (no exceptions)
22:09:59 <elliott> not true
22:10:05 <elliott> that is not the statement of the rule
22:10:07 <elliott> the statement is:
22:10:12 <elliott> If porn of it does not exist, it will be made.
22:10:25 <elliott> i.e.: it's a platonic statement, not a mere order
22:10:55 <elliott> IMO -- speaking theologically -- rule 34 has no exceptions, as it itself states, and rule 35 merely clarifies it
22:10:56 <olsner> yeah, you're probably right. seems the end effect of either formulation is the same though
22:11:04 <zzo38> I don't think so. It is just the way things tend to happen. Or, at least that is what I have heard.
22:11:12 <elliott> that is, for everything, there IS porn of it, but it might not be on the internet, anyone's hard drive, or even in this universe
22:11:35 <elliott> rule 35 is merely stating that, upon this being noticed, eventually, porn of it *will* enter this universe, after existing in mathematical platonic concept-space
22:11:45 <olsner> elliott: rule 34 always applies! but when it doesn't, rule 35 makes sure it applies anyway! :)
22:11:50 <elliott> so, there is porn of it, no exceptions; and if the porn cannot be found, it will be made
22:12:00 <elliott> olsner: it is not a crude hack, it is an elegant clarification!
22:12:07 <olsner> it's like a tautology with a plus menu
22:12:11 <zzo38> I think it has nothing to do with mathematical platonic concept-space. Just some people like to make pornography of anything so that is why they do so.
22:12:12 <elliott> :D
22:12:19 <elliott> zzo38: I pray for your soul.
22:12:27 <elliott> Maybe one day you will see the light.
22:12:37 <Gregor> It's not that I LIKE to make pornography of everything.
22:12:45 <Gregor> It's just that the Great Guiding Pervert forces me to.
22:13:04 <zzo38> I don't like to make pornography of anything, but some people do, so they can have freedom to do so.
22:13:32 <olsner> hmm, I expected zzo38 to be more of a pervert
22:15:15 <zzo38> olsner: Some people think some of my concepts are a bit perverted. However, it is not meant to be.
22:17:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: MC!
22:17:08 <Vorpal> Gregor, you made porn of what now?
22:17:13 <elliott> olsner: isn't he asexual? pretty sure he's said he's asexual.
22:17:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Colour porn.
22:17:38 <olsner> elliott: by choice? :P
22:17:39 <elliott> Nasty, perverted colour porn -- interracial, non-matching colour porn.
22:17:41 <zzo38> Other people are the perversion, who thinks FurryScript has something to do with both pornography and Javascript, and gave a (completely stupid) example. In reality, FurryScript has nothing to do with pornography or with Javascript.
22:17:48 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, Gregor or zzo38?
22:17:50 <Vorpal> "you are about to close 123 tabs, do you want to save your session" <--- hell, no that will take forever to open
22:17:51 <elliott> zzo
22:17:51 <Vorpal> XD
22:17:56 <elliott> olsner: <ehird> Pretty sure he's said he's gay. <olsner> by choice? :P
22:17:58 <Vorpal> also explains the memory usage
22:18:27 <elliott> olsner: Lesson: just don't go there. :p
22:18:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, zzo38 is asexual, according to his WP user page.
22:18:38 <olsner> elliott: haha, ok
22:18:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: creepy, dude :P
22:19:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, "ZOMG YOU KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT SOMEONE THAT THEY ADMIT OPENLY" is not a mature mode of conversation.
22:19:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I was referring more to the looking up his wikipedia page.
22:19:50 <olsner> elliott: in the "not having sex" sense, it can certainly be by not-choice though
22:19:57 <elliott> olsner: that's not what asexual means
22:20:12 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, remembering information from it is not creepy either.
22:20:29 <olsner> elliott: not really, no, but that's the sense I used back there
22:20:56 <oerjan> wikipedia user pages are of course strictly private information.
22:21:01 <olsner> when I say it, it means what I mean it to mean, or however that nice quote goes
22:21:23 <Phantom_Hoover> fleebquobble mcflooby screenflib.
22:21:33 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: quite.
22:21:50 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: just quibble that flibble-flobble
22:22:01 <oerjan> olsner: PERVERT
22:23:26 <olsner> Vorpal: 123 tabs is seriously nothing to worry about
22:24:24 <zzo38> This user likes to use redundant userboxes that are redundant. This user likes to use redundant userboxes that are redundant. This user likes to use redundant userboxes that are redundant. This user likes to use redundant userboxes that are redundant. This user likes to use redundant userboxes that are redundant. This user likes to use redundant userboxes that are redundant. This user likes to use redundant userboxes that are redundant.
22:25:30 <olsner> zzo38: so you're not the zzo38 on wikipedia?
22:26:18 <zzo38> olsner: I am the same as the User:Zzo38 on the Wikipedia, that is my user page.
22:26:53 <olsner> that looks batshit insane
22:27:40 <olsner> but I know from here that you're not nearly as batshit insane as that looks
22:28:38 <zzo38> Hay, I *invented* Icoruma and FurryScript. If you are not perversioned, you might be able to guess the correct usage of FurryScript (or you might not, if you have no information)
22:28:41 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, did you stalk my Wikipedia page some time back, or did I link it?
22:28:50 <zzo38> olsner: And I am a bit insane in some ways though, too.
22:28:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't remember.
22:28:57 <zzo38> But not all ways.
22:28:58 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, insane is good.
22:29:11 <Sgeo> zzo38, "This person does not understand Python (or understands it with considerable difficulties, or does not want to program in Python)."
22:29:14 <Sgeo> We are at war
22:29:42 <olsner> ooh, that statement applies to me too!
22:29:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh, this'll be entertaining.
22:29:45 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it can be, depending on many things. But often the insane can do good things, and this is good things.
22:30:02 <olsner> at least the "does not want to program in Python" part
22:30:18 <Phantom_Hoover> [[This user knows that 0.999... is exactly 1.]] — zzo38's WP page.
22:30:24 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Quit: omghaahhahaohwow).
22:30:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Not in nonstandard analysis!
22:30:39 <zzo38> Sgeo: Actually since I put that there, I have programmed a few card games in Python, and have modified a drive wipe script written in Python. I don't ever write any of my own new programs in Python, though.
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22:31:48 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I suppose then you can use nonstandard analysis? In the standard way, though it is equal. In my opinion it is equal, but it might still be incorrect to use the equivalence sign there; the equal sign is OK there
22:32:38 <Sgeo> "This user can code in XUL"
22:32:43 <Sgeo> Why would you want to?
22:32:54 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, well, saying "not in nonstandard analysis" is like saying "2+2 /= 4 in Z_4"; it's an axiomatic thing.
22:32:59 <Sgeo> Unless Vonkeror can do XUL, which would surprise me
22:33:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: There is probably not a good reason except for making Mozilla based programs (Vonkeror is Mozilla based)
22:33:49 <Sgeo> Oh, wasn't aware of that
22:34:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Essentially, \lim_{x→\infty}1/x = 0 in standard analysis, but an infinitesimal in nonstandard analysis.
22:34:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, sort of...
22:34:38 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: What 2+2 makes is not axiom in TNT.
22:35:09 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, but it is dependent upon the axioms of the system you're in.
22:35:29 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. I guess so. TNT is only for natural numbers, anyways.
22:35:58 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, have you used a proof assistant in the past?
22:36:11 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: No.
22:37:19 <zzo38> But maybe later I will invent a computer program for proof assist if I would have a reason to do so.
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22:38:26 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, making a proof assistant yourself is an exercise in futility unless you have several years of free time and like writing long papers showing that your proof kernel is reliable.
22:39:27 <Phantom_Hoover> And you have an intimate understanding of a particular flavour of logic and its implementation into a computational system.
22:40:58 <zzo38> I know how TNT works (described in Hofstadter's book), and how it could be generalized, and how you could also have macros and so on, so that would work.
22:42:42 <elliott> TNT does not a good proof assistant make.
22:43:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Are there actually any good proof assistants other than Coq?
22:43:14 <zzo38> And then it can be possible to prove Fermat's Last Theorem in TNT by writing macros and so on.
22:44:12 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, words fail me on that.
22:44:31 <zzo38> It would not be interactive, it would only execute the macros which you write and which can be checked according to the current state of the proving system, and so on, and then tell you which ones are valid, and then have a macro check if it is valid to make another proof.
22:44:35 <Phantom_Hoover> There's NIH and there's proving Fermat's Last Theorem on a self-written proof assistant.
22:45:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Coq, the best, most mature proof assistant I know of, has a barely-understandable non-constructive implementation of the *reals*, let alone the vast towers of mathematics upon which that proof is based.
22:48:01 <Sgeo> Grr at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sgeo/randcolor-hex being broken
22:48:03 <zzo38> Does Coq prove Fermat's Last Theorem?
22:48:08 <Sgeo> Oh, right, I still need to learn Coq
22:50:29 <zzo38> Does Coq prove the twin prime conjecture?
22:50:38 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:52:26 * Sgeo is again thinking about scientists inside GoL
22:53:38 <elliott> zzo38: No.
22:53:53 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, in the loosest sense.
22:54:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. they are constructible within its logical framework from an appropriate set of axioms.
22:55:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, not the twin prime conjecture since we don't actually know if it's true or not.
22:57:13 <oerjan> it _does_ prove the four color theorem, though
22:57:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: erm fermat's last theorem might not hold in Coq's logic
22:57:59 <elliott> Wiles' proof wasn't exactly constructive
22:58:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Huh?
22:58:08 -!- Sasha has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:58:52 -!- Sasha has joined.
22:59:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ?
22:59:17 -!- rodgort has joined.
22:59:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Not exactly constructive...?
22:59:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Coq...
22:59:48 <oerjan> afk
23:00:23 <Phantom_Hoover> How do you constructively prove a universal statement?
23:02:34 <zzo38> Is Fermat's Last Theorem provable in Typographical Number Theory?
23:04:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You mean forall x, y?
23:04:12 <elliott> That's a function..
23:04:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Fair point.
23:04:21 <elliott> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: erm fermat's last theorem might not hold in Coq's logic
23:04:22 <elliott> <elliott> Wiles' proof wasn't exactly constructive
23:04:29 <elliott> what i'm saying is, all we have to go on is wiles' proof
23:04:34 <elliott> done in very non-constructive logic
23:04:48 <elliott> it isn't FALSE in constructivist logic, we know that thanks to wiles
23:04:50 <elliott> but it might not be provable
23:06:46 <zzo38> But do you know if it is possible in TNT? Even if you do not know if it is provable in Coq?
23:07:13 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:08:18 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, depends entirely on the specific flavour of logic TNT uses.
23:09:30 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: TNT works entirely by typographical operations of replacing groups of symbols matching a template with other ones.
23:10:01 <zzo38> And by combining and splitting previous theorems in some ways.
23:14:13 <tswett> [ʝ̃ŋʝ̃ŋʝ̃ŋʝ̃ŋʝ̃ŋʝ̃ŋʝ̃ŋʝ̃ŋ]
23:14:38 <tswett> I don't think [ʝ̃] is a sound in any language. :P
23:16:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it defined in the IPA?
23:16:59 <tswett> Yes. It's a nasalized voiced palatal fricative.
23:17:13 <tswett> But "nasalized" and "voiced palatal fricative" are separate symbols; you just put the former over the latter.
23:17:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
23:17:37 <tswett> So I should say ~ and ʝ are defined in the IPA but ʝ̃ is not.
23:20:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, the joys of making up stupid phonemes.
23:20:37 <tswett> :P
23:20:50 <tswett> This is a sound, not a phoneme. If it were a phoneme, it would be /ʝ̃/ instead of [ʝ̃]. :P
23:21:27 <fizzie> "The sound written ‹r› in Mandarin has an odd history; for example, it has been borrowed into Japanese as both [z] and [n]. It seems likely that it was once a nasalized fricative, perhaps a palatal [ʝ̃]."
23:22:03 <fizzie> That was, of course, just speculation.
23:22:27 <Vorpal> elliott, *prod*
23:22:31 <tswett> And Mandarin apparently doesn't have that sound now, or else it would say.
23:22:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, you must see the underground dock I built in MC. only thing remaining is adding some wooden piers + some pirate feel to it
23:23:02 <Vorpal> or smugglers maybe
23:23:10 <Vorpal> smugglers is better
23:23:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:23:24 <tswett> Does it have a ramp going up to the ocean?
23:23:40 <Vorpal> tswett, it has a drop shaft and a boatlevator
23:23:48 <Vorpal> tswett, both in the middle of the ocean
23:23:56 <Vorpal> tswett, the boatlevator ends at the sea bottom
23:24:09 <fizzie> Yes; it does list some other nasalized fricatives (which to a Finnish speaker is a bit strange-sounding concept in the first place); "Some of the South Arabic languages have phonemic nasalized fricatives, such as /z̃/, which sounds something like a simultaneous [n] and [z]."
23:24:14 <fizzie> But not that particular one, no.
23:24:28 <tswett> Vorpal: cool.
23:24:53 <tswett> fizzie: it's a strange idea to me, too. I would be surprised if English had them.
23:27:25 <tswett> Ever.
23:28:58 <Gregor> Rule 34 roulette
23:29:16 <tswett> What is Rule 34 roulette?
23:29:26 <Gregor> The world's greatest idea.
23:29:38 <zzo38> And how does it work?
23:29:42 <olsner> it's just roulette with different rules (one rule, in fact - rule 34)
23:30:28 <zzo38> And what is that rule? Is that the only number on the board?
23:30:44 -!- Goosey has joined.
23:31:38 <olsner> oh no, the internet is full of numbers
23:32:45 <tswett> I took a look at the Internet once and found that, while it had a lot of numbers in it, it also had a lot of pointers and mutexes.
23:33:45 <zzo38> How does rule 34 work?
23:34:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:37:28 <zzo38> You cannot really write a proper syntax highlighter for TeX or for Forth, but METAFONT and FurryScript can be properly syntax coloring.
23:38:00 <zzo38> (With Forth, it is possible, however, to prettyprint a program while it is executing.)
23:38:05 <tswett> FurryScript? What is this language whose name catches mine eye?
23:38:19 <zzo38> tswett: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/
23:39:11 <zzo38> If you have ideas for additional scripts, you can suggest and/or write them. (Sorry, no documentation yet. You can look at the files in the scripts/ directory for examples)
23:40:14 <zzo38> Any questions so far? There probably is one, at least.
23:40:45 <Sgeo> Is there any documentation that isn't code?
23:41:02 <Sgeo> Oh, I should learn to read
23:41:09 <zzo38> Sgeo: Unfortunately not. But we can work together to write some.
23:41:50 <Sgeo> Is it TC?
23:42:47 <zzo38> Sgeo: I believe so.
23:43:12 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:43:29 <zzo38> But I am not completely sure.
23:46:00 <zzo38> What do you think?
23:46:24 <Sgeo> Someone should make a language whose TC-ness is undeterminable. And as soon as I thought that, I start thinking that it's already been done
23:46:56 <zzo38> Sgeo: There is one that is dependent on Goldbach conjecture
23:50:19 <zzo38> Hopefully the files available in scripts/ is enough to understand most of the features of FurryScript so that you can write a code in FurryScript.
23:50:40 <tswett> What's that programming language where a program is a series of fractions? Is it called "Bag" or something?
23:50:50 <elliott> tswett: fractran; bag is iirc oerjan's extension of it
23:51:14 <tswett> So, I just realized that Fractran is equivalent to some other language, and then I realized that that other language is also equivalent to Fractran.
23:51:18 <tswett> MY MIND IS SO PROFOUND.
23:51:19 <Sgeo> fractornran
23:58:04 <zzo38> There are other programs with similar purpose to FurryScript exists, but as far as I know the other programs are weaker and not as clean.
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