00:01:18 elliott: Sasha2 was implying that the light pollution from our spectral wipe-out would prevent us from spotting incoming aliens. dark sky communities allow us to at least spot them on the visible spectrum at night. 00:01:34 i don't think he was implying that we couldn't see them 00:01:36 * Sasha2 imagines an alien race that sees that spectrum wiping us out because of light pollution 00:01:39 just that they'd wipe us out. 00:02:42 no, I was implying that if an alien race could see them 00:02:49 they may attempt to explode us 00:02:53 for light pollution 00:06:53 right. 00:06:57 so not that we couldn't see them. 00:08:17 * Sgeo likes the thought of GTK+ or Qt being an option in a program 00:08:27 Just set this preference, the program switches 00:09:31 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:12:33 elliott, down? 00:12:39 Vorpal: Seems so. 00:12:48 Sgeo: that is the stupidest thing ever 00:12:50 elliott, I was falling in a boat while it happened 00:12:54 Vorpal: "Well, I won't rent whole layers, most likely. Do you have any idea how big 128x128 is?" 00:13:01 elliott, result: flying dutchman 00:13:03 :D 00:13:18 elliott, I have no fucking clue what will happen when I reconnect 00:13:26 elliott, probably loss of boat at the very least 00:13:31 Vorpal: The bottom few floors will be obsidian-bordered (eventually) and be for a post-apocalyptic scenario; supplies and such to build the world outside. After all, where is more secure than in the sea, bordered by obsidian, at the very bottom of the map, with bedrock? 00:13:36 elliott, and I answered "yes" 00:13:56 Vorpal: The top floor will be... I don't know, something snazzy. Indeed, though, floor 0 will be fun. 00:14:10 elliott, also my mines cover more than 128x128x2 considering amount of cobblestone 00:14:25 Although you'll enter it from the regular sea-level ground at floor -(small); there'll be a tunnel with stairs going just below sea level, and then a short walk to a hole in a low-numbered below-sea floor. 00:14:28 Then you can go up if you wish. 00:14:39 There will also be a lower-down minecart startion, and a skyway connection higher up. 00:15:31 elliott, I'll probably establish an embassy there if it ever gets done 00:15:40 elliott, also up again 00:16:03 Vorpal: Do you know how big the grid of large chests are? 00:16:10 Is it 2x the grid of small chests? (And what's that?) 00:16:16 You see, I need to store 81 thousand pieces of something... 00:16:17 elliott, 2x yes 00:16:19 elliott, and not sure 00:16:53 elliott, you need a boatlevator in that thing from top to bottom 00:17:18 elliott, measurements: 2x3 shaft, and 5 spaces away a 2x2 shaft 00:17:23 Vorpal: I was planning on just having a straight staircase that makes you turn around whenever it reaches a wall, and a multi-width ladder all the way. 00:17:25 elliott, some extra space needed at bottom 00:17:29 Boatlevators seem... unreliable. 00:17:37 elliott, they are faster, and quite reliable for me. 00:17:47 elliott, it is just everyone else that can't ride mine 00:18:00 So they're hard to use. :p 00:18:02 elliott, I guess they are trying to stear the boat or something 00:18:06 which is just very very wrong 00:18:09 never stear the boat 00:18:13 and exit behind it 00:18:25 It's hard to avoid steering it... 00:18:34 elliott, do not touch arrow keys 00:18:36 while in the boat 00:18:42 elliott, that way you don't stear it 00:18:45 steer* 00:18:55 err 00:18:57 wasd 00:18:58 not arrows 00:20:19 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:23:06 ineiros: Can I have a /tp ehird BCxVAhxWQxi? 00:26:05 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:26:23 i'm weird 00:38:07 -!- augur has joined. 00:47:25 Oh look, I just fixed a broken test case in Newspeak 00:47:34 This is fun! 00:48:46 * Sgeo hits whoever wrote these tests for using ~= 00:53:06 -!- Leonidas has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:54:33 Vorpal: "Additionally, when Water is placed inside a "+" shaped pillar, the player can still interact with the water through the northwest indent of the "+". This allows a pillar of water to act as an elevator much quicker than a descending waterfall, as the downward motion of the water inside the pillar has no effect. The ascension rate is comparable to ladders at a lower cost, as one only needs a bucket and some building material. It is interes 00:54:33 ting to note that if a block is removed from the pillar, exposing the water, the downward pull will slow the player's ascent for the next few blocks." 00:55:01 elliott, huh 00:55:24 Vorpal: I'm still not sure where to place The Cube. 00:55:29 elliott, issue with that however is that you will be inside the water 00:55:35 elliott, not partly inside it 00:57:21 elliott, down? 00:58:13 seems so 00:58:23 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXW0bx_Ooq4 01:00:20 pikhq: I love that video. 01:00:55 I love that Chrysler actually made that video. 01:01:31 elliott, up but I disconnected 01:03:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXW0bx_Ooq4 <-- what, that is so much jargon I have no clue about 01:03:29 pikhq, is it technobabel? 01:03:30 There are four languages in the current Newspeak prototype 01:03:34 technobable* 01:03:43 Vorpal: No, it's technology. 01:03:44 Duh. 01:03:45 Simple stuff. 01:03:49 It's a turbo encabulator. 01:04:02 elliott, I never heard of that :P 01:04:42 Vorpal: Yeah, it's a turboëncabulator. It supplies inverse reactive current for use in unilateral phase detractors, and automatically synchronises cardinal grammeters. 01:04:49 Subclasses of Language: 01:05:03 pikhq, indeed pure technobabel 01:05:11 NewsqueakLanguage0 NewsqueakLanguage1 NewsqueakLanguage2 SmalltalkLanguage 01:05:44 Sgeo: Stop looking at Newspeak right now; close every relevant window. 01:05:45 Thank you. 01:05:50 elliott, why? 01:06:22 Sgeo: Because I said so. 01:06:41 elliott, besides the youngness, is there a good reason not to like Newspeak? 01:06:57 Because I said so. 01:07:06 pikhq, anyway it became blatantly apparent during the diagnosis part that it was a joke 01:07:50 -!- Leonidas_ has joined. 01:07:59 Vorpal: The bit about running additional tests that serve to increase billable hours is a dead giveaway, isn't it? 01:07:59 -!- Leonidas_ has changed nick to Leonidas. 01:09:20 pikhq, that and some other things 01:09:45 pikhq, such as "for the purposes of obscurity we have removed the casing" 01:10:43 pikhq, or the bit that any systems faults would be displayed in secret code 01:11:15 pikhq, also "manual and songbook" 01:11:38 also that a Geiger scale would be involved :P 01:12:33 pikhq, and further the bit about what would be covered in the next month :P 01:13:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:13:18 pikhq, but the first part I could only catch because I realised that was too much jargon :P 01:13:23 * Sgeo ponders a possible fix for a certain annoyance 01:16:00 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:17:20 Vorpal: Hint: the jargon is meaningless. 01:17:53 pikhq, indeed I realise that 01:18:08 Also, "dingle arm" is an inherently hilarious phrase. 01:18:21 pikhq, but I'm no car expert so it took me a a few tens of of seconds to figure out what was going on :P 01:21:01 i know nothing about cars but it's obvious 01:21:02 bye 01:21:03 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:26:51 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:28:23 pikhq, I remember reading about a Swedish company that manufactured screws got strange results on a 1 April joke ad 01:28:31 * Sgeo wikiwalks in Newspeak 01:29:07 pikhq, basically they made an ad for stuff like T-shaped screws and dual-head screws for extra torque. On 1 April one year during the 1970s or so 01:29:22 pikhq, they actually got phoned by people who tried to seriously order these "products" 01:29:43 for a few days after 01:30:03 pikhq, fun eh? 01:30:22 Both T-shaped and double-headed screws have legitimate uses, and the former most certainly exists. 01:32:11 Gregor, not the way these were done :P 01:32:32 Gregor, it was like a screw that split into two part way up like an actual T 01:32:43 Okidoke :P 01:32:54 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:32:55 Ah :P 01:33:05 Gregor, and the dual head one looked like: 01:33:06 - - 01:33:07 | | 01:33:07 -+- 01:33:07 | 01:33:14 (best viewed with mono-space) 01:33:26 and I don't think that would work 01:34:02 Gregor, also I believe they had a flexible screw. and a few more that I don't remember 01:34:08 Hyuk 01:34:14 Gregor, "hyuk"? 01:34:19 Yup. 01:34:24 what does that mean 01:34:30 It means "hyuk" 01:34:34 uh 01:34:43 Gregor, and can you explain what "hyuk" means 01:35:01 "Hyuk" is a folksy laugh :P 01:35:02 Gregor, or was "yup" the translation? 01:35:05 ah 01:35:06 okay 01:35:45 Gregor, anyway what would a "real" t-shaped screw be? 01:36:03 Just a screw with a T-shaped end opposite the screw proper. 01:36:22 Gregor, oh you mean the shape that the screwdriver fits into? 01:36:23 right 01:36:41 Gregor, well this was indeed... More literal 02:04:19 -!- cal153 has joined. 02:08:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:14:26 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:15:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:27:37 -!- mtve has joined. 02:36:41 Is it bad to have fun with trolling? 02:49:27 -!- elliott has joined. 02:49:56 Insomnia... 02:50:53 Vorpal: how did nailor do his underwater thing? 02:53:44 coppro: "On behalf of Google and the University of Waterloo Computer Science Club, we would like to thank everybody who took part in the Google AI Challenge." 02:53:54 oh wait, it's your challenge 02:53:54 heh 03:00:29 -!- perdito has quit (Quit: perdito). 03:09:06 -!- perdito has joined. 03:09:36 * Sgeo submits a bug report 03:22:24 http://iphone-chieftain.blogspot.com/2009/04/tweetsheet-10-released.html twitter client implemented in excel 03:29:31 elliott: Welp, time to kill myself. 03:29:41 Gregor: what 03:29:59 elliott: Twitter in excel = time to end it all 03:30:09 Gregor: no this is like a new age in human existence 03:30:26 10:38:14 Gregor: 14:53:14 * GregorR-W doesn't even know what tldr means :P 03:30:26 10:38:14 14:53:51 heh, I had to look that one up too 03:30:26 10:38:14 14:54:36 Too Long Didn't Read? 03:30:26 10:38:14 14:54:38 XD 03:30:27 elliott: Yes. The time without me. 03:30:33 Gregor: are you ashamed of 2006 you 03:30:34 i would be 03:30:40 bet he didn't even like dinosaur comics 03:31:11 Clearly he liked reading. 03:31:20 Since he didn't understand what it was for something to be too long to read. 03:31:26 Therefore, he probably liked Dinosaur Comics. 03:31:33 But then, we'll never know; he's dead now. 03:31:36 Gregor: dude you blew my mind. 03:31:43 Gregor: well um, you recommended hextris in 2006 03:31:47 and that's why my brain exploded 03:31:47 so 03:31:49 i blame you 03:31:55 09:06:37 23:49:05 I love how devfs survived for like a year :-P 03:31:55 09:06:37 23:49:34 yeah, what was wrong with it? worked for me 03:31:55 09:06:37 23:50:04 I really don't know. 03:31:55 09:06:37 23:50:08 Always worked great for me. 03:32:10 Gregor: we can clearly see here your ignorance of linux kernel maintenance practices 03:32:23 I'm still ignorant of Linux kernel maintenance practices. 03:32:25 Gregor: namely, that any system replacing another system is accepted IFF it is more pointlessly flexible and complex 03:32:27 Quite intentionally. 03:32:38 Gregor: and that putting XML into the kernel is never a bad thing (see HAL) 03:32:48 Gregor: those are the entire set of rules, actually 03:32:50 Gregor: wait, there's one more 03:32:56 elliott: IIRC, there was a time between devfs and udev when it was back to flat /dev. 03:32:58 Gregor: nobody must do *anything* to make the experience nicer for desktop users 03:33:15 because... because fuck you, we don't want the day of the linux desktop 03:33:21 Gregor: heh, static dev? 03:33:26 oldskoooool 03:33:45 Thereby invalidating your point ... 03:33:56 Gregor: no, a mere historical anomaly 03:34:01 just average the slope out, man 03:34:02 Gregor: devfs is back in the kernel now, it's called devtmpfs, it runs on tmpfs, and they snuck it in by saying it provides an environment for an initramfs before udev is loaded 03:34:10 Gregor: i fully intend to use it and nothing else in Kitten :) 03:34:18 lollercopters 03:34:34 Gregor: the reactions were varied 03:34:36 "Lol, devfs." --Andrew Morton 03:34:41 and uh 03:34:44 "Lol, devfs." --Andrew Morton again 03:34:50 (actual direct quote, although he only said it once) 03:35:10 Gregor: have you ever looked at /etc/udev 03:35:11 it is quite a sight 03:35:46 Gregor: Found a non-GNU binutils yet? :P 03:36:26 elliott: Haven't even looked :P 03:36:51 Gregor: looks like i will be using uClibc anyway, so that's a vaguely gnu-infested (some code copied from glibc) component 03:37:08 Gregor: and, well, i do have to use gcc to compile kernel and uClibc itself 03:37:15 but i should be able to use pcc for most other things 03:37:16 elliott: Yeahyeah, I get it, you lurve blowing the Gnu. 03:37:24 Gregor: i dont man its a hard fuckin life 03:37:31 X-D 03:37:42 Gregor: i did get a pcc/dietlibc toolchain fully self-bootstrapped, but dietlibc is probably too opinionated with anything :P 03:37:56 erm 03:37:58 Gregor: i did get a pcc/dietlibc toolchain fully self-bootstrapped, but dietlibc is probably too opinionated to use with with anything :P 03:38:00 *with 03:39:07 Gregor: i mean... patches welcome y'all 03:39:23 Gregor: I seem to have found a coreutils in busybox, even if busybox has bits of lameness 03:40:35 Gregor: man if you want a non-gnu linux you're gonna have to work for it that involves TALKIN man 03:40:54 I don't want one, I just want to see one :P 03:40:55 or do you want to let linux distros fellate rms UNTIL THE END OF TIME???? 03:40:59 Gregor: see one, yes, but 03:41:03 Gregor: YOU HAVE TO WORK TOWARDS IT 03:42:11 Gregor: ur motivation reaches all-time lowz 03:42:56 If I click a button and stupidly don't change the stupid default, deleting the result should not cause a crash 03:43:41 SHUT UP I'M TIRED ENOGUH WITHUOUT YOU 03:43:45 Gregor is dead to me now 03:44:15 fizzie: this could be you http://i.imgur.com/iCDrN.png 03:44:38 And the Gnu just rolls over and grumbles when he's done with elliott; they never /talk/ any more. 03:44:52 i know its like our relationship has reached a plateau of hate 03:45:05 and i fear that every move will only send me down a slippery slope 03:45:09 its why im tryin to get out man 03:45:12 its why im tryin to break free 03:45:40 The persistent interspecies pedophilic rape isn't part of it? 03:46:30 Gregor: no, i blame 4chan for that 03:47:38 -!- elliott has left (?). 03:47:40 -!- elliott has joined. 03:47:55 Gregor: does xorg build with non-gcc i wonder 03:48:15 elliott: It certainly did in the 7.0 days 03:48:27 Gregor: what compiler? 03:48:36 SunPRO 03:48:42 pcc is kind of old and crusty and it's nice and it's learning these C99 ways, but sometimes it falls down and can't get up and what why would you even do that 03:48:43 Or whatever bizarre name that compiler has/had. 03:48:45 what would possess you to do that 03:48:47 you monster 03:48:53 Intel :P 03:49:08 Gregor: even if i didn't have a handy checklist of reasons not to buy intel 03:49:09 Gregor: that 03:49:11 Gregor: that would convince me. 03:49:18 X-D 03:49:27 Gregor: how many babies did they rape and then grind up to use in chips, i mean in an average day 03:49:27 just 03:49:30 rough estimate here 03:50:35 Gregor: oh and i kinda need gcc for C++ 03:50:39 Well, judging by the trucks, assuming maybe 250 per truck (average weight, stacked) I'd say about 1,250/day. Assuming they were in cages in the trucks, they could have really only fit maybe 80, making a much more conservative ~400/day 03:50:46 Gregor: getting llvm/clang working with static linking is like on my list of things that are "not" fun, as in not fun 03:51:06 Gregor: however the only C++ thing i want to ship is like, webkit :) 03:51:11 and openjdk or whatever, to run minecraft. 03:51:29 Gregor: they didn't use cages in fact they dehydrated the babies furst, what's the term 03:51:39 like when you get tried fruit or, what they make concentrate juice from 03:51:40 taking out all the water 03:51:42 they did that to babies. 03:51:46 and packed them 03:51:51 Concentrated. 03:51:56 But I don't think so. 03:51:57 yes 03:52:00 At least, not judging by the screams. 03:52:09 Gregor: they rehydrated them before the process moron 03:52:18 wikileaks confirms it 03:52:28 (wikileaks and netcraft merged ) 03:52:43 "IAmA former smoker, quit one year ago today, and YOU SHOULD QUIT SMOKING TODAY!" 03:52:44 i don't smoke 03:52:45 idiot 03:53:12 elliott: Then you'll have to start, so you can QUIT TODAY. 03:53:24 i approve of this idea 03:53:29 what do severe chain smokers get through 03:53:30 40 a day? 03:53:32 i'll work towards it 03:53:39 quit on the 39th 03:53:46 s/40/40 packs/ 03:53:54 Gregor: really?? 03:53:58 No :P 03:54:02 But I wouldn't be surprised by 10. 03:54:10 Gregor: see i believed you there you destroyed my trust 03:54:18 Gregor: i think ill break up with you too 03:54:31 "Boy, 2, Smokes Two Packs a Day" 03:54:38 hardcore mfer 03:54:53 "He cries and throws tantrums when we don't let him smoke. He's addicted," his father, Mohammad Rizal, says. 03:54:55 i think 03:55:01 i think there is a clear sourec of blame going on here 03:55:05 like i mean 03:55:09 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 03:55:12 i think its hard for your baby to go out on the streets and smoke cigarettes 03:55:15 you sort of have to give him one i think 03:55:17 Gregor: can you confirm this 03:55:39 In the US, Barney advertises for Marlboro. 03:56:14 Gregor: <3 you have to make that now 03:56:16 that would be amazing 03:56:19 BUT IN SOVIETY RUSSIA 03:56:27 MARLBORO ADVERTISES FOR BAAAARNEY 03:56:44 soviety russia 03:56:46 is that kind of 03:56:47 In Soviet Russia, Object Verb Subject! 03:56:48 not soviet russia 03:56:50 just soviet..y 03:56:51 similar to soviets 03:56:53 sovietesque 03:56:56 but not soviet in and of itself 03:56:57 Mohammed Rizal seemed unconcerned. 03:56:57 "He looks pretty healthy to me. I don't see the problem," he said. 03:56:57 Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/lifestyle/health/2010/05/26/2010-05-26_video_tragic_toddler_ardi_rizal_has_twopackaday_cigarette_habit.html#ixzz16vIwvOyv 03:56:59 confirm/deny augur 03:57:04 FUCK YOU WEIRD JAVASCRIPT 03:58:24 elliott: deny 03:58:32 augur: what why 03:58:37 soviety is a type because t and y are close together 03:58:38 OR 03:58:46 its indicative of palatalization on the t 03:58:48 TAKE YOUR PICK 03:59:11 augur: yur a horrible erpson 03:59:41 DONKEY 03:59:42 MOTHERFUCKING 03:59:43 KONG 04:01:42 pikhq: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/basedefs/xbd_chap08.html look at the end, the specification of TZ; looks like you can define DST and stuff in $TZ itself 04:01:47 so all I need is like 04:01:56 /share/timezones/uk 04:01:57 to have the right thing 04:01:59 and you can just do 04:02:03 ln -s /share/timezones/uk /etc/tz 04:02:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 04:03:52 What happens if I want to do implicit logarithmic differentiation of, say, y = -4x 04:04:13 ln y = ln -4x = (ln -4) + (ln x) 04:04:29 1/y dy/dx = 1/x 04:04:36 dy/dx = y/x = x/x = 1 04:04:53 I'm too tired aren't I 04:05:22 ... it's not a problem with the negatives 04:05:27 It's a problem with my thinking 04:05:42 Where's the problem with my thinking?'' 04:06:13 * Sgeo facepalms 04:06:23 y/x = -4x/x 04:07:36 note to self: look into doing something like inbetween anarchy golf and all those project euler, sphere online judge things except realtime'd. because why go outside to BATTLE PROGRAM 04:11:13 elliott: Sooo. TZ is much more flexible than tzdata. 04:11:38 pikhq: Yes, just more manual. I have a feeling tzdata might be an extremely old, pre-TZ way of mapping names to things like this. :p 04:11:51 pikhq: So basically I can just maintain a set of common timezones and everyone else can just write their own fucking string. 04:12:12 pikhq: (I could also see about extracting them from the typical tz database if I decide to be crazy.) 04:12:34 elliott: You could just parse it from the file they compile *into* the tz database. 04:12:46 pikhq: Right. 04:13:06 Also, not "the typical" one. It's *the* tz database. http://www.twinsun.com/tz/tz-link.htm 04:14:15 pikhq: I just said "the typical" to avoid ambiguity with the "TZ" name of the environment variable. 04:14:30 [[To use the database on an extended POSIX implementation set the TZ environment variable to the location's full name, e.g., TZ="America/New_York".]] 04:14:33 Hey, that violates POSIX. 04:14:40 Why yes, yes it does. 04:14:42 TZ has to start with a : to be treated in an implementation-dependent way rather than the TZ specification. 04:15:10 Moral of the story: nothing is POSIXly correct. 04:16:06 pikhq: POSIX is kind of a useless standard, based on a status quo that doesn't exist, specifying nothing. 04:16:13 It's only useful as a reference manual. 04:16:31 It would at least be useful if everyone tried to follow it. 04:16:46 pikhq: Oh man, these files are painfully complex. 04:16:48 ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/tzdata2010o.tar.gz 04:16:57 RuleUruguay2005only-Oct 9 2:001:00S 04:16:57 RuleUruguay2006only-Mar12 2:000- 04:16:58 As it is, it specifies the "platonic ideal UNIX". 04:17:01 RuleUruguay2006max-OctSun>=1 2:001:00S 04:17:01 RuleUruguay2007max-MarSun>=8 2:000- 04:17:03 Zone America/Montevideo-3:44:44 -LMT1898 Jun 28 04:17:03 -3:44:44 -MMT1920 May 1# Montevideo MT 04:17:04 -3:30UruguayUY%sT1942 Dec 14# Uruguay Time 04:17:04 -3:00UruguayUY%sT 04:17:09 I don't want to parse that, dude. 04:17:16 * pikhq vomits 04:17:35 pikhq: [[Numeric time zone abbreviations typically count hours east of UTC, e.g., +09 for Japan and -10 for Hawaii. However, the POSIX TZ environment variable uses the opposite convention. For example, one might use TZ="JST-9" and TZ="HST10" for Japan and Hawaii, respectively.]] 04:17:51 pikhq: POSIX: Oh, we know of your world standard. We decided it wasn't logical enough and replaced it. 04:17:51 Yeah, that's just oldschool brain damage. 04:22:11 Well, let's try this sleep thing again. 04:22:23 pikhq: If I can get uClibc compiled, maybe this Kitten thing will actually happen soon. :p 04:22:32 Perhaps it shall be a Christmas present of pain, suffering and difficult installation. 04:22:34 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:23:54 * pikhq makes a prediction: elliott wins the world record for failure to sleep, and then passes out of exhaustion. 04:24:08 Oh, and by the end of it RAINBOW PONIES 05:02:40 * Sgeo randomly modifies the Newspeak IDE 05:03:06 Hmm 05:03:10 Works as expected 05:03:18 But as expected is not as useful as I want 05:06:54 Hm 05:07:05 I just found out this kid I hit the other day brought a gun to school 05:07:14 He had cocaine on him too. 05:08:02 * Sgeo makes it more useful 05:08:53 My IDE modification, not the cocaine 05:10:03 elliott: In some fashion, remind me that I have simple but awesome changes in SelectorPresenter 05:12:12 I just need to pretty it up a bit 05:15:43 "Did you know? It's 12:14:55 am. Go get some rest!" 05:17:57 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 05:50:17 -!- Goosey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:51:48 -!- sftp has joined. 05:59:25 Poor, poor Kingdom of the Netherlands. 05:59:32 It has 3 distinct currencies. 06:01:05 It occurs to me that with Smalltalk, Factor, and now Newspeak, I have attempted to make a contribution to the language 06:01:20 Euro in the Netherlands, Netherlands Antillean guilder in the BES Islands, Curaçao and Sint Maarten, and Aruban florin in Aruba. 06:01:28 (Um, "language" is the wrong word) 06:01:37 Yes, the nation's currency is dependent on *which part of it you're in*. 06:02:57 Granted, everything but the Netherlands itself is one of several small islands, not physically contiguous at all, but hey. It's still crazy. 06:04:07 (for those confused: the Kingdom of the Netherlands has a similar setup to the UK, in that it's a monarchy over several constituent countries which form a single nation.) 06:16:23 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:37:03 ... Huh. Apparently Linux's filesystem handling is such that processes can have a private set of mount points. 06:37:16 That is to say, much like Plan 9, Linux offers per-process namespaces. 06:37:23 I know of nothing that actually uses this *at all*. 06:42:08 MIDI breath controllers: Too - damned - expensive. 06:44:32 My God. One could actually pretty much *have* Plan 9 just by replacing the Linux userspace. 06:46:48 eggnog is so delicious 06:46:49 Gregor, coming from you, that's saying something. I think. 06:47:46 Sgeo: ... I'm cheap. 06:49:06 Hmm. That'd take a bit of doing for some of the really nice bits of Plan 9. 06:49:26 (making a cluster by union mounting the /proc of a few different systems together, for instance) 06:50:44 Installing Mercurial apparently causes Newspeak to automatically use it 06:50:52 * Sgeo should bother at some point 06:59:01 -!- perdito has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:01:54 -!- FireFly|n900 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:20:31 -!- FireFly|n900 has joined. 07:31:20 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 07:53:15 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:49 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:19:30 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:40:23 -!- perdito has joined. 08:48:21 -!- perdito has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:07:37 -!- FireFly|n900 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 09:07:56 -!- nopseudoidea has joined. 09:08:24 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:09:13 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:12:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:12:39 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:13:31 gah, the hard part of adminning #esoteric is occasionally I have to check twice whether something's spam or not 09:13:51 I mean, someone adds a random sequence of letters and punctuation to the hello world list, is that spam or an esoprogram? 09:14:12 (it's easy to tell, generally, but requires concious thought, I can't let spamfighting go on mental automatic) 09:14:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:19:27 i dreamt i was playing minecraft on the esoserver 09:19:48 and dying meant being banned forever 09:21:45 anyway there were these areas that were apparently "close to hell" where destroying a block might start a chain reaction that opened up this huge hole on the ground, and you had to run for your lives 09:21:46 -!- FireFly|n900 has joined. 09:22:07 and then the elf in my party had a lesbian relationship with her twin or clone or whatever 09:26:56 also in the world, islands weren't separated by water, but by emptiness, with only a bridge of sparsely distributed single blocks you could jump on to get across, i was sent to build a proper bridge across of these, alone, and my father told me i shouldn't go into the cave without torches because of all the foxes. 09:27:19 and because it's particularly hard to use electricity in that particular cave... i had no idea what he was talking about 09:48:03 and then the elf in my party had a lesbian relationship with her twin or clone or whatever <-- err 09:48:40 oklopol, weird dream 09:52:36 Vorpal: how did nailor do his underwater thing? <-- before health 09:53:06 elliott: also iirc he first did top down and got horrible streams, I helped fix those. then the rest he built top down 09:53:24 elliott: but since you don't plan to have water above the thingy you will build, that shouldn't be a problem 09:54:02 err the rest he built bottom up I meant 09:54:07 elliott: also I believe he kept moving a dirt barrier forward when he built it bottom-uå 09:54:09 up* 09:54:32 generally everything has sex with everything in my dreams 09:54:40 oklopol, weird 09:55:21 i make things have sex whenever i have lucid moments, and my dreams are usually half-lucid 09:55:34 that i "kinda" know they are dreams 10:14:25 -!- atrapado has joined. 10:35:26 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:40:52 -!- nopseudoidea has quit (Quit: Quitte). 10:45:30 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:52:31 -!- perdito has joined. 11:09:52 `addquote i make things have sex whenever i have lucid moments, and my dreams are usually half-lucid 11:10:20 also, a bridge of sparsely distributed single blocks sounds like every platform game ever 11:10:26 especially over emptiness 11:10:30 what color was the emptiness? 11:10:51 (or was color not a property it had? I find in my dreams, at least, many objects don't have properties you'd naturally expect them to have) 11:11:17 ais523: blueish. 11:11:22 bright blueish 11:11:53 266| i make things have sex whenever i have lucid moments, and my dreams are usually half-lucid 11:12:44 i luv this chan 11:12:49 :) 11:13:07 oklopol: hmm, likely one of the Mario games then 11:13:36 i don't recall objects not having properties, but they certainly have properties they usually couldn't have, like being really scary, or "proving something", a property normal objects can't have, if they actually prove something, it's on an intellectual level, not emotional, although in tv series it does happen, since you sometimes aren't really following the technobabble, but you get that "oh my god that table has a *scratch* on it!" 11:14:41 I know while I'm dreaming I don't notice all sorts of logical inconsistencies, I just assume that's the way the world works 11:14:59 in fact, I'm remarkably unsuspicious while asleep, it helps to stop me noticing I'm asleep and waking up 11:16:11 i tend to check i'm awake every now and then, when i'm awake, it's something they tell you should do if you want to get lucid dreams, i do it partly because of that, and partly because i occasionally confuse reality and my dreams 11:17:39 which is basically schizophrenia, luckily it's rather rare 11:18:38 at least i've understood you should always know, when you're awake, whether things have happened or not, if you have a clear memory of them 11:18:54 objects need properties to be identified, or even instanced as objets.. regarding to them as objects is the intellectual job, i think.. it's focussing on certain aspects of beeing.. and there is and infinite number of them out there 11:19:17 so its hard work 11:19:24 done while you're awake 11:20:00 we are better artist,then we have thought, as master eckhard says 11:20:19 we construct the world.. on the fly 11:21:56 i find it interesting that i can come up with awesome objects and worlds, compose okay songs, and come up with plots that make at least a little bit of sense, but math... i do it every day, but in my dreams, all the math parts seem like a 1st grader wrote them :\ 11:22:00 in our dreams, the doors of perception seem to open a little more 11:23:38 perdito: dunno about that, the way you think in dreams is the way you think when you're not really concentrated, except that you can send yourself sensory input, methinks. 11:23:50 indeed! 11:24:23 concentration = closing the doors of perception.. focusing.. filter the rest.. or even just identify and matter no more! 11:25:54 i can construct the same worlds in my head i do when i'm dreaming, i just explore them in a different, more pleasing way; the fact you can actually look at the world, as if through your eyes, doesn't really aid the process, it's just nice. 11:26:38 perdito: i find it a bit hard to follow your train of thought, and my meaningless poetry sensor starts beeping, no offense, i'm really trying :D 11:26:53 i guess i may be a bit hard to follow as well 11:27:04 hmm 11:27:11 yeah maybe i get your doors of perception 11:28:02 "or even just identify and matter no more!" 11:28:02 sry.. my english prevents me to express myself clearer 11:28:13 yes!! 11:28:16 that part is a bit hard to 11:28:23 you got it :) 11:28:59 i did? 11:29:01 :D 11:29:18 i copy pasted that from yours to ask "what?" 11:29:58 if by "mattering" you mean "making a difference", in some deep philosophical sense, then i don't think we're talking about the same subject 11:30:53 i'm mostly interested in the fact the dreaming brain seems to shut off certain functions, for instance obviously the part responsible for math 11:30:57 concentration is not required to percept the world around us! ..even worse! it makes us filter out all the "useless" information out there.. the infinity 11:31:06 which i find intuitive, but definititely not obvious 11:31:21 because certain parts of the brain are just as alive as they are awake 11:31:40 like the part that processes human relationships, that's on crack when you're dreaming 11:32:14 i'd like to mention, once again, the countless times i've fallen asleep reading math, and had the mathematical concepts turn into human relationships in a millisecond 11:32:45 in silly and intuitive ways, like a pair might be a marriage 11:32:50 and a list might be a queue 11:32:54 of people 11:34:02 amazing 11:34:03 :) 11:34:17 " concentration is not required to percept the world around us! ..even worse! it makes us filter out all the "useless" information out there.. the infinity" <<< i don't know what the infinity is, but yeah, this may be true, although i think it's a side-effect, not in any way inherently necessary for concentration 11:34:52 as huxley said, we need both: 11:34:53 work 11:34:56 & love 11:34:58 usually when i concentrate, i fall into a trance and don't really have any idea what i'm doing or what people are doing around me, but i think that's mostly "my thing" 11:35:09 work and love huh 11:35:19 another analogy 11:35:25 yeah maybe we need both, and maybe that's relevant here in some sense 11:35:28 hmm 11:35:33 right 11:35:34 analogy 11:35:35 body & soul 11:35:42 function & percept 11:35:53 sure sure, wing and wang, black and white. 11:36:43 listing analogies is fun and all, but it's the stuff the part of the brain does that lives when you're asleep. not the part that thinks, and i like to think when i'm awake. 11:37:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Bergson#Creativity <-- interesting article 11:37:18 i'm sure it is 11:37:24 i'll open it just in case 11:38:00 hmm, esoidea: a lang that looks very like an existing lang, but has subtly different semantics 11:38:06 C might be a good one to base it on 11:38:28 exactly same syntax 11:38:29 my first idea is that instead of using break; to break out of a switch at the end of a case, instead you use continue; to /not/ break out 11:38:34 but nothing is what it seems 11:38:36 oklopol: yep, identical syntax 11:38:56 and ideally, it'd be similar enough that a program sort-of works like what you'd expect it to if you know the existing language 11:39:00 ah 11:39:10 for instance, you could make C call-by-name rather than call-by-value 11:39:15 okay i was thinking something completely insane that could never be realized, but yeah i like the sort-of-works thing 11:39:16 and people wouldn't realise something was wrong until much later 11:40:10 so i actually decided to stay home today and do my master's thesis, so if i'm not gone in an hour, you're all welcome to tell me to fuck off 11:42:06 anyway to continue the dream thing, wouldn't it be awesome, if there really is a way to "switch off math" from the brain (which is my conjecture, although you may disagree with my rather pseudo-scientific evidence of this), to learn to do math without it 11:42:14 i love the idea of sucking at something, and learning to do it 11:42:52 oklopol: esolangs are my way to do that, in a way 11:43:02 you write an esolang which doesn't have maths in, you figure out how to implement it in that 11:44:21 yeah but it's different when you're programming your own brain, and especially when it's something that you are, at first, just inherently incapable of understanding 11:45:28 ...that you're implementing 11:47:59 i just have a serious brain fetish, that's all 11:48:24 remember good ol' operation mindfuck? 11:48:42 what was that 11:48:43 wilsons theories on metaprogramming our minds 11:48:51 i haven't read 11:49:38 cosmic trigger.. illuminatus.. schroedingers cat and so on.. a lotta beatiful and funny books to read 11:50:08 i can't really stand pop sci 11:50:23 and i don't particularly enjoy fiction 11:50:47 not that i know what those books are about 11:51:54 dunn wheter there ever will be a way to create sth like artficial intuition, but im sure we wont without channels as this 11:52:19 and lucid dreaming programmers like you oklopol :) 11:55:17 would be fun if it turns out it's actually pretty easy to program a fully conscious program, it's just intuition is impossible to implement, these programs can play chess, and *know they're alive*, but they *still* can't love / realize a proof is essentially just an application of lagrange's theorem 11:55:21 but first i really need to do sth bout this english-leaks 11:56:02 i'm not a programmer, i'm a mathematician! they call me "the computer scientist" at work, i work in the math dep :P 11:56:54 oklopol: well, I was a mathematician first, then an engineer, then a computer scientist 11:56:56 programming's just a hobby 11:57:19 well, and I teach programming part-time 11:57:26 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:58:26 "hey X, you're a computer scientist, wanna program this script for me?" 11:59:50 softwaredev. needs it all.. maths, physics, pschycholgy, philosphy ..and ..uh..even martial arts *g 12:00:16 not seeing it, but easy to believe 12:00:45 thanks 2 walls u can at least smash things on themt if they do not work as intended 12:00:50 -->love 12:00:56 remember 12:01:12 ah and if you know your martial arts, you might still be able to type 12:03:43 usually when i concentrate, i fall into a trance [...] but i think that's mostly "my thing" <-- sounds like what they call "flow" to me 12:04:07 hmm? like you follow people and eat food etc but you're not really there 12:08:42 also i have this matrix-like idea that when we dream we are actually connected to a different universe in which mathematical logic _does not exist_ 12:08:52 :D 12:08:58 luv it! 12:16:32 hm today's iwc ... i guess the universe really _is_ doomed (again) 12:19:30 oerjan: that arguably makes sense 12:19:30 -!- oklofok has joined. 12:19:54 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:20:27 yeah doom at new years is becoming a tradition 12:20:42 oerjan: oh, I was referring to dreaming connected to a universe without mathematical logic 12:20:55 while dreaming, you're in a universe made of disconnected parts of your own thoughts 12:21:01 XD 12:21:01 and mathematical logic tends not to be among them 12:21:34 sometimes, when you wake up, you can reconstruct what parts of your dream-universe were made from 12:22:18 i often directly get something i've thought about during the day in my dream 12:22:23 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:22:31 indeed, that's common 12:22:33 for instance that game where you can really die 12:22:56 it wasn't common for me, before one day i told someone that's never happened to me, and then i had a dream i told her that 12:22:58 as in, if you die in the game, it kills the player not just the character? 12:23:00 which was... weird 12:23:03 oklofok: i vaguely recall in the logs _someone_ telling us to shout if he wasn't gone in an hour, about an hour ago 12:23:08 :D 12:23:09 oklofok: that's beautiful 12:23:43 ais523: also happened with that thing where your eye muscle starts repeatedly contracting, what's its name 12:23:44 awareness 12:23:48 i never had that 12:23:58 then a girl said she'd been having that all day 12:24:09 i told her i'd never even heard about that kind of thing 12:24:11 and i go home 12:24:14 and it happens 12:24:40 after that it was quite common for a while, nowadays i can stop that kind of thing 12:25:08 btw i don't really believe my own stories even though i know they are true 12:25:24 they sound too unlikely 12:26:24 and by i don't believe them i mean i find it hard to believe them 12:27:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasciculation 12:28:29 "hearing about this concept" is not listed as a cause 12:29:14 or possibly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myokymia 12:29:50 -!- FireFly|n900 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:30:11 yeah so okay i'm leaving after this ep 12:30:18 6 minutes 12:30:36 so if you need my expertise, ask now 12:31:39 oklofok: How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck would chuck wood? 12:32:07 depends on how it's changed to give it that ability 12:32:34 hm, imagine it being bitten by a radioactive beaver 12:32:38 hmm 12:34:00 it could chuck whole trees in a matter of hours 12:34:06 rofl 12:34:12 -!- perdito has changed nick to perdito|afk. 12:34:27 ais523: also happened with that thing where your eye muscle starts repeatedly contracting, what's its name <-- blinking? 12:34:34 :D 12:34:47 that was actually pretty funny 12:35:54 oklofok never blinked before 12:38:02 erm so 12:38:04 i'm going now 12:38:13 will close irc and everything 12:38:15 wish me luck 12:38:16 okay 12:38:21 WISH 12:38:21 oklofok, going to what? 12:38:27 i'm going to write stuff 12:38:30 ah 12:38:31 BYE 12:38:32 cya 12:38:42 -> 12:38:43 and good luck 12:38:47 yay 12:38:51 -!- oklofok has quit. 12:40:27 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:41:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:43:41 -!- perdito|afk has quit (Quit: perdito|afk). 12:44:38 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:44:45 -!- ais523 has quit (Changing host). 12:44:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:51:06 -!- FireFly|n900 has joined. 12:52:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:53:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:11:20 -!- nopseudoidea has joined. 13:11:27 -!- elliott has joined. 13:14:44 22:44:32 My God. One could actually pretty much *have* Plan 9 just by replacing the Linux userspace. 13:14:46 pikhq: glendix 13:15:06 01:13:31 gah, the hard part of adminning #esoteric is occasionally I have to check twice whether something's spam or not 13:15:06 01:13:51 I mean, someone adds a random sequence of letters and punctuation to the hello world list, is that spam or an esoprogram? 13:15:06 01:14:12 (it's easy to tell, generally, but requires concious thought, I can't let spamfighting go on mental automatic) 13:15:10 ais523: fail (first linem, #) 13:15:45 01:26:56 also in the world, islands weren't separated by water, but by emptiness, with only a bridge of sparsely distributed single blocks you could jump on to get across, i was sent to build a proper bridge across of these, alone, and my father told me i shouldn't go into the cave without torches because of all the foxes. 13:15:50 this is better than minecraft 13:16:40 03:13:07 oklopol: hmm, likely one of the Mario games then 13:16:43 ais523: it was Minecraft 13:19:22 03:59:50 softwaredev. needs it all.. maths, physics, pschycholgy, philosphy ..and ..uh..even martial arts *g 13:19:29 what, software development is trivial and involves none of those 13:20:31 elliott, surely you know kung-fu is invaluable when dealing with java? 13:20:50 true. 13:21:02 i have used physics to debug a complex tangle of gnu makefiles once 13:21:15 (i dropped the hard drive from the top of a tall building) 13:21:19 ah 13:21:26 (note: story is fiction) 13:21:46 :(, DMM licenses his comics non-freely. 13:21:47 elliott, for being gnu, gnu make is quite decent 13:21:54 elliott, since when? 13:21:59 Vorpal: -nc- 13:22:03 is nonfree 13:22:09 elliott, depends on your definition 13:22:12 discrimination against fields of endeavour 13:22:13 no, it doesn't 13:22:26 elliott, it is freer than "all rights reserved" 13:22:27 elliott: shush, clearly perdito intends to start a new and glorious age of software development 13:22:30 it's against the DFSG, the OSI definition 13:22:39 there may even be giant robots involved 13:22:46 won't even bother looking up the FSF's opinion, i think it's obvious :) 13:22:55 Vorpal: freer -- "i'm slightly pregnant" 13:22:57 elliott, nd I would have considered non-free 13:23:09 elliott, that reply made no sense... 13:23:15 no, it made perfect sense 13:23:23 "my software is slightly unfree" -- "i'm slightly pregnant" 13:23:25 no such thing. 13:23:31 Vorpal: if you consider -nc- free you also have to consider -njews- free 13:23:37 elliott, law of excluded middle? 13:23:40 i.e., anybody but jews can redistribute this software 13:24:48 elliott, free is a gradual scale. GPL is free. BSD is more free. that "do wtf you want" license is in some sense even more free 13:25:05 you do realise i'm using free in the Free sense? 13:25:16 Vorpal: freer -- "i'm slightly pregnant" <-- this is ridiculous since nothing in our current world can be truly free, there are always limitations 13:25:19 elliott, as for njews, sure it is freer than all rights reserved. That isn't saying it is a good idea though 13:25:28 http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines, something is either entirely free or not free at all 13:25:31 oerjan, indeed 13:25:33 oerjan: um i don't see how that is true at all 13:25:37 oerjan: please back that up 13:25:54 elliott, you aren't free if you need to include info on who originally made it. 13:26:00 thus *BSD is non-free 13:26:08 not according to the definition of http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines 13:26:11 (see, this makes no sense) 13:26:15 I'm saying Free here, not free, you're stupid 13:26:32 "Free" means one of a few well-defined set of conditions 13:26:34 for instance, http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines 13:26:38 elliott, you didn't use upper case above 13:26:43 :(, DMM licenses his comics non-freely. 13:26:48 non-Freely surely? 13:26:50 because the /other/ meaning of free is "costs no money" 13:26:55 and it was damn obvious 13:27:01 and i'm not about to start saying "libre" 13:27:02 elliott, no it wasn't 13:27:09 yes. indeed not to you 13:27:22 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 13:27:30 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:28:13 elliott, sure it isn't DFSG compliant. But it is somewhat free. 13:28:26 it is not Free(TM)(C)(R) at all 13:29:00 perhaps. it is a lot more free than, for example, dillbert though. 13:29:08 s/e,/e/ 13:29:16 hm 13:29:32 (insert other grammar fixes here) 13:29:49 Vorpal: define free 13:29:55 if you mean Free, then no, no it's not 13:30:33 elliott, I don't mean the DFSG sense. It should be obvious 13:30:54 elliott, since that is a boolean sense. While I clearly refer to a gradual sense 13:30:58 Vorpal: if you mean libre, well, good luck defining a scale of libre 13:31:04 because there isn't really one 13:31:06 elliott, I never said that either 13:31:13 elliott, I'm pretty sure you know what I mean 13:31:21 what, then? 13:31:22 free of cost? 13:31:55 Vorpal: ? I cannot think of any more definitions of free. 13:32:03 Free, libre, and free as in beer 13:32:04 what else 13:32:50 elliott, the everyday sense that is a gradual scale from "all rights reserved, full DRM, costs a shitload" to "do what the fuck you want with this" 13:32:59 Vorpal: so, libre. 13:33:15 remind me to avoid using confusing french around you in future 13:33:17 elliott, libre is not actually a gradual scale as commonly defined afaik 13:33:55 or not at least in the sense most commonly used in relation to software 13:35:18 i wonder if booting without an initramfs/initrd actually works these days 13:35:49 now I have to read scrollback to see what the argument was about 13:36:11 ais523: me saying that no, an -nc- license is *not* Free, Vorpal misinterpreting this and saying "but it's MORE FREE!!" 13:36:21 ais523: it was Minecraft <--- the dream was clearly a modified Minecraft, I was trying to figure out what it was modified /by/ 13:36:31 repeat until Vorpal reveals that he's not able to infer "Free" from "free" by obvious context 13:36:33 /win 2 13:36:45 ais523: 01:22:07 and then the elf in my party had a lesbian relationship with her twin or clone or whatever 13:36:51 ais523: what the heck is that from then :P 13:37:04 elliott: he explained a bit later 13:37:26 elliott: what time is it right now? 13:37:33 coppro: what? 13:37:41 elliott: what time is it right now 13:37:45 coppro: 08:37:05 when I asked your client what time it was 13:37:46 01:22:07 and then the elf in my party had a lesbian relationship with her twin or clone or whatever 13:37:46 01:26:56 also in the world, islands weren't separated by water, but by emptiness, with only a bridge of sparsely distributed single blocks you could jump on to get across, i was sent to build a proper bridge across of these, alone, and my father told me i shouldn't go into the cave without torches because of all the foxes. 13:37:46 01:27:19 and because it's particularly hard to use electricity in that particular cave... i had no idea what he was talking about 13:37:47 01:54:32 generally everything has sex with everything in my dreams 13:37:49 01:55:21 i make things have sex whenever i have lucid moments, and my dreams are usually half-lucid 13:37:51 ais523: thanks 13:37:52 01:55:34 that i "kinda" know they are dreams 13:37:57 ais523: i don't think that counts as explanation 13:38:11 it's 13:37 in my timezone 13:38:19 elliott: does to me 13:38:20 double thanks 13:39:03 ais523: well, I doubt he'd go out of his way to indicate a particular relationship if by his own admission he made /everyone/ had a relationship-by-some-definition 13:39:13 therefore i consider his dream an unexplained phenomenon. 13:39:17 we may never know. 13:39:21 meh, dreams 13:39:25 I don't have them often 13:39:31 at least, I don't recall having them often 13:39:35 probably I have them all the time 13:39:41 you only remember a dream if you wake up during it 13:39:46 that's why dreams never seem to get to the end 13:40:16 ais523: do you have proof of that or a cite or whatever 13:40:19 never heard that 13:40:24 brains to seem to have this thing of not committing dreams to memory 13:40:28 elliott: sounds about right 13:40:38 well sometimes you wake up because the dream does end, horribly 13:40:39 elliott: no, it's something like third-hand info that I can't remember where I've read it 13:40:46 but it's consistent with my experiences 13:40:50 oerjan: arguably, that would be waking up during 13:40:52 coppro: that doesn't count as evidence, though, especially because remembering what happens at the end of dreams just before you wake up is near-impossible 13:40:59 oerjan is right though 13:41:00 elliott: It's all hear-say anyways 13:41:05 i've woken up right when i died in dreams 13:41:10 coppro: there is actual dream research. 13:41:15 I'd say it's because you died in the dream and the dream was still continuing 13:41:22 but the death was a really obvious sign you were dreaming 13:41:26 and thus, a prompt to wake up 13:41:33 yes, but we can't empirically measure dream retention 13:41:49 I wonder if, if you were lucid dreaming, you could die in your dream and then keep lucid control over the afterlife 13:42:12 coppro: pi don't think that's necessarily true 13:42:13 *i 13:42:20 ais523: i doubt it :p 13:42:23 I have to agree with ais523 on one thing, though 13:42:31 I don't think it's obvious either way 13:42:38 I only remember a dream if when I wake, I was dreaming right before 13:42:47 (there. now we've avoided the "end of a dream" issue) 13:43:16 CLEVER 13:43:50 but not clever enough for oerjan 13:43:57 he will come and rip your soul out of your body 13:44:15 Vorpal: btw, you said i shouldn't clobber owners on dirs etc. that have to be owned by a specific special-purpose user 13:44:31 Vorpal: well, I'd have to chmod them in postinst anyway. because of course the target machine won't have the user, so the postinst script has to add it, and the UID might not be the same 13:45:48 elliott: Debian actually has some sort of crazy systematic solution for that 13:45:54 I can't remember what it is, but it's likely in debhelper somewhere 13:46:01 ais523: and I have postinst scripts!! 13:46:08 joy! 13:46:23 $ ls 13:46:23 description needs scripts source.tar version website 13:46:27 this package manager is comin' together 13:46:58 ais523: I *think* I've avoided the problem of understanding yours and CLC-INTERCAL's versioning systems altogether (for upgrades) 13:47:00 hmm, gitorious is down 13:47:03 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:47:48 ais523: I was considering bug-hunting C-INTERCAL to pass time, but then I realised I'd be entering the Realm of the ESR, and decided not to. you traitor :p 13:47:59 (ok so i also decided it sounded like not much fun at all) 13:48:19 you could try running the fuzz-tester, that's a) easy, and b) entirely written by me 13:48:41 in fact, esr tried to stop me doing it (on the basis he thought I'd be wasting my time, admittedly, rather htan thinking it was necessarily a bad idea) 13:49:02 ais523: the cathedral and the bazaar and the fascist dictatorial state 13:49:11 -!- perdito|afk has joined. 13:49:17 ais523:and -- oh, I meant actually analysing and modifying the code by hand 13:49:20 *ais523: and 13:49:24 (preferably avoiding running it) 13:49:36 ais523: you need to re-fork it :p 13:51:04 ais523: (or maybe I'll just write ITRALCEN!) 13:51:43 ais523: apropos nothing at all, have you seen http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2010/12/haskell-researchers-announce-discovery.html? 13:51:45 -!- nopseudoidea has quit (Quit: Quitte). 13:52:09 [["I'm kind of surprised I'm the only person on earth who gives a shit about it," Briars continued. "I'd have thought there would be more people following the press releases closely and then not using Haskell. But they all just skip the press releases and go straight to the not using it part."]] 13:57:46 -!- perdito|afk has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:00:17 "Would you please do me the kindness of adding a second "l" and a second "t" to my last name ("Elliott") in your link?" --Conal Elliott 14:00:19 HE FEELS MY PAIN 14:03:18 you'll have to start a secret society of elliotts 14:04:49 -!- Sasha has joined. 14:04:52 -!- Sasha has quit (Client Quit). 14:05:30 -!- Sasha has joined. 14:07:59 elliott: i think someone's been reading a bit of onion 14:08:17 *the onion 14:08:36 oerjan: also http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2010/07/wikileaks-to-leak-5000-open-source-java.html 14:08:47 oerjan: it's funnier than the onion though, with the onion you can usually just read the headline and skip the rest 14:09:41 -!- perdito|afk has joined. 14:16:03 ais523: would you appreciate the effort if I wrote something to convert every CPAN package to a Kitten package in the repos? :-P 14:16:10 -!- perdito|afk has quit (Quit: perdito|afk). 14:24:41 -!- perdito|afk has joined. 14:26:35 -!- perdito|afk has changed nick to perdito. 14:26:59 elliott, do you know if python allows you to have values such as NaN and +/-inf for floating point without throwing exceptions? 14:27:10 it seems to throw exceptions all the time when I try 14:27:39 >>> float('nan') 14:27:39 nan 14:27:43 hm 14:27:44 weird 14:27:46 >>> float('inf') 14:27:46 inf 14:27:46 >>> float('-inf') 14:27:46 -inf 14:27:54 >>> float('asdf') 14:27:54 ValueError: invalid literal for float(): asdf 14:27:58 Vorpal: but 1./0. is not allowed. 14:28:04 elliott, ah that explains it. 14:28:08 it raises a ZeroDivisionError 14:28:18 Vorpal: also math.isnan 14:28:21 elliott, indeed, I would have expected it to act as IEEE prescribes 14:28:26 and math.isinf 14:28:29 indee 14:28:29 -!- perdito has changed nick to perdito|afk. 14:28:34 indeed* 14:28:55 elliott, wait, is float single or double? 14:29:00 in python that is 14:29:13 double i think 14:29:17 ah good 14:29:22 how can i check 14:29:29 -!- sftp has joined. 14:29:42 * elliott looks into postoffice 14:29:45 well, I could do it as easily 14:29:53 (which is the say, it involves some work) 14:30:10 elliott, I wish the python REPL had tab complete 14:30:44 Vorpal: put in ~/.pythonstartup 14:30:47 import readline 14:30:51 import rlcompleter 14:30:53 readline.parse_and_bind('tab: complete') 14:30:59 or whatever 14:31:05 Vorpal: (and yes that works) 14:31:15 why on earth is that not default then 14:31:19 Vorpal: or try ipython 14:31:35 Vorpal: which is the python REPL so bloated, it's basically a shell 14:31:41 but it syntax-highlights :P 14:31:45 haha 14:31:57 probably in $your_distro 14:32:03 elliott, so wait, this will tab complete stuff like myintvar. to list possible members? 14:32:09 that is the rlcompleter thingy 14:32:12 Vorpal: maybe. it certainly works with modules 14:32:20 Vorpal: oh there's also bpython, which also has integrated docs: http://bpython-interpreter.org/screenshots/ 14:32:41 elliott, hm are you sure about ~/.pythonstartup ? 14:32:47 -!- perdito|afk has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:32:47 it seems to do absolutely nothing 14:32:50 no i just googled :D 14:32:53 * Vorpal tries it directly in the shell 14:33:04 PYTHONSTARTUP¶ 14:33:04 If this is the name of a readable file, the Python commands in that file are executed before the first prompt is displayed in interactive mode. The file is executed in the same namespace where interactive commands are executed so that objects defined or imported in it can be used without qualification in the interactive session. You can also change the prompts sys.ps1 and sys.ps2 in this file. 14:33:10 Vorpal: set PYTHONSTARTUP=$HOME/.pythonstartup 14:33:13 or .pythonrc or whatever 14:33:13 elliott, heh 14:33:27 http://bpython-interpreter.org/screenshots/ is actually really cool 14:33:42 Vorpal: http://geoffford.wordpress.com/2009/01/20/python-repl-enhancement/ also saves history to a file 14:34:01 haha, "/etc/postoffice.cf" oldschool 14:34:18 elliott, other feature I would like: reloading a file into the shell without a pain calling sys.whatever(). (alternatively you could just restart python but then you lose that scrollback) 14:34:41 Vorpal: try help(reload) 14:34:50 e.g. 14:34:52 >>> import sys 14:34:54 >>> reload(sys) 14:34:59 14:35:00 elliott, I seem to remember it managed to crash python for me 14:35:06 well, it shouldn't. 14:35:11 also that only works if you import it as a module 14:35:22 e.g. "from sys import * \n reload(sys)" won't change the in-scope definitions 14:35:32 "from sys import * \n reload(sys) \n from sys import *" will though 14:35:39 (but the old definitions will still be there, if any values got removed) 14:35:42 hm 14:36:35 elliott, the rlcompleter thing seems to do the job. :) 14:36:46 Vorpal: you may want to nab the history-saving from that blog post too 14:36:51 ok postoffice looks pretty cool 14:37:01 elliott, is it an MTA? 14:37:01 but still more configuration than i'd like 14:37:16 elliott, also isn't .cf something to do with m4? 14:37:17 Vorpal: well, it's an SMTP server/client 14:37:30 at least I seem to remember that sendmail used .cf and also m4 14:37:37 .cf is what sendmail used for configuration files, it's just that this guy was used to sendmail when he wrote postoffice 14:37:39 so he stole the extension :) 14:37:42 http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/postoffice/ 14:37:46 ah 14:38:03 on the one hand, it looks like i'd have to do quite a bit of configuration. on the other hand, it looks like a lot less of a bitch to package than qmail! 14:38:31 elliott, postfix is actually quite decent iirc. Qmail is better of course. 14:38:53 Vorpal: I tried to use postfix once, and then I looked at the configuration files and my process tree. 14:38:55 No thanks... 14:39:08 hm 14:39:13 elliott, what about the process tree? 14:39:39 Vorpal: postfix likes to spawn a new process to do every single thing it can think of, because that way it can reduce their privileges 14:39:50 so you end up with 1,000,000 processes each with their own postfix-specific user :) 14:39:51 elliott, you do realise qmail is kind of like that too? 14:39:58 Vorpal: yes, but postfix takes it to THE XTREME 14:40:06 huh 14:40:28 elliott, and I seem to remember qmail having far more users 14:40:34 than postfix? 14:40:36 yes 14:40:39 postfix is very popular. 14:40:42 qemu is quite niche. :P 14:40:50 elliott, I meant user account 14:40:53 accounts* 14:40:53 ah 14:40:58 but does it use them all at once? 14:41:36 elliott, well, I believe it tends to start stuff as it needs for many things, just a handful running all the time, supervised by daemontools 14:41:48 All I want is to route user@domain to ~user by default, define a few aliases/wildcards e.g. *@domain -> elliott@domain, and also if ~user/.filtermail exists, execute it for every incoming message with stdin being the headers and message body, then stop processing further if it exits 0 (if it exits 1) keep going 14:42:04 and just put it in a maildir 14:42:05 elliott, hm I can ssh to a computer with postfix and check user count 14:42:13 one user, called postfix 14:42:28 maybe different distros package it differently? 14:42:35 or i'm misremembering... 14:42:38 anyway it had a ton of processes 14:42:39 that's all i remember 14:42:53 Vorpal: anyway, if I packaged qemu, I'd have to replace the daemontools scripts with svmg scripts 14:42:55 elliott, yes it does have 4 processes atm. But qmail is the account-insane one 14:43:03 elliott, qemu? 14:43:03 since svmg is almost a direct clone of daemontools/runit, that wouldn't be too hard, but still 14:43:06 erm 14:43:06 what has it got to do with it 14:43:07 qmail 14:43:09 ah 14:43:23 also, that /package and /command crap 14:43:39 i think only daemontools is packaged like *that* though 14:44:36 All I want is to route user@domain to ~user by default, define a few aliases/wildcards e.g. *@domain -> elliott@domain, and also if ~user/.filtermail exists, execute it for every incoming message with stdin being the headers and message body, then stop processing further if it exits 0 (if it exits 1) keep going 14:44:36 and just put it in a maildir 14:44:40 i'm almost tempted to write it ;) 14:45:42 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:50:13 -!- nopseudoidea has joined. 14:51:26 ok why isn't locale support working in uClibc 14:53:03 /* Silly foreigners disabling en_US locales */ 14:53:08 --gen_wc8bit.c 14:55:51 Yay, it's working now. 14:55:58 Uh, sort of. 14:56:04 TODO: look into locales some more. 15:00:33 -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 1.7M Dec 2 14:56 lib/libc.a 15:00:36 Eh, that's not bad. 15:00:54 Ha! It's bigger than glibc on my system. I wonder why. 15:01:09 Of course glibc is a .so. 15:01:33 -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 4.3M Oct 31 00:34 /usr/lib/libc.a 15:01:33 There. 15:01:41 And of course there are dlopen'd parts of glibc... 15:01:47 -!- perdito|afk has joined. 15:03:57 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 15:04:56 $ cat /proc/cpuinfo | awk '/^processor/ { print $3 }' | tail -1 15:05:01 The ugliest way to get the number of cores possible. 15:05:06 Wait, that actually needs +1. 15:05:13 $ cat /proc/cpuinfo | awk '/^processor/ { print $3+1 }' | tail -1 15:05:40 -!- nopseudoidea has quit (Quit: Quitte). 15:06:34 Oh, this is cleaner: 15:06:35 cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep processor | awk '{a++} END {print a}' 15:08:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:10:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:10:57 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 15:11:40 /var/pkg/vi/scripts/build 15:11:42 Mwahahaha, paths. 15:13:18 -!- jcp has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 15:14:39 pikhq: ugh! i need to put two filenames on a line. rapidly losing hope :) 15:15:01 Why? 15:17:20 -!- jcp has joined. 15:17:27 Phantom_Hoover: symlinks 15:17:48 Go on. 15:18:36 Phantom_Hoover: x -> y 15:19:02 And this stops you putting two filenames on a line? 15:19:29 Phantom_Hoover: every character but \0 is a valid component of a path 15:19:44 Ah. 15:19:59 googling "manifest file" is impossible thanks to java :( 15:29:01 Phantom_Hoover: In fact I'm 90% of the way to not even bothering with a manifest... 15:32:57 http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50260000/jpg/_50260127_searchingforporn,bbc.jpg 15:33:07 I can't even think of anything to say about that. 15:33:31 That is now my favourite image. 15:33:32 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:33:43 Phantom_Hoover: Oh man, imagine the steps taken to create that image. 15:33:52 Load up google, type in porn, get the camera out, tripod, zoom... 15:34:08 Words fail me. 15:34:17 "That angle's not the standard BBC Angle To Show Zoomed In Computer Screens At! (pretty sure they have one, just about every photo they do of that sort has an angle like that)" 15:34:19 And, redo! 15:34:33 -!- sshc has joined. 15:38:06 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:39:47 oerjan is a bath tub 15:42:41 that's just bubble, er babble 15:43:03 oerjan, http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50260000/jpg/_50260127_searchingforporn,bbc.jpg 15:43:05 Comment. 15:44:08 {- porn -} 15:47:40 Phantom_Hoover: Wanna help me build THE GLASS CUBE? 15:47:52 Mining now, I assume? 15:48:11 Phantom_Hoover: No! I'm getting the glass from the server, because you see, it involves 81 thousand pieces of sand. 15:48:24 Phantom_Hoover: And while I *could* obtain that without difficulty, I would sooner kill myself than face that kind of tedium. 15:48:33 Ah. 15:48:37 Phantom_Hoover: Fun fact! When it goes underwater, I will have to use a bucket 128x128x64 = 1,048,576 times. This is because of the sea 15:48:50 Phantom_Hoover: I do not like the sea 15:49:20 i blame the sea gets in the way of construction 15:49:59 indeed 15:51:18 Phantom_Hoover: Is chat broken or something? 15:51:32 No. 15:52:01 Phantom_Hoover: it 15:52:03 Phantom_Hoover: it is down 15:52:10 NO LONGER 15:52:10 Fair point. 15:52:13 It is back up. 15:52:20 Why do I have two pigs in my inventory. 15:52:20 How will you deal with the bedrock? 15:52:46 Finding a 128x128 block of it that's naturally smooth is an exercise in futility. 15:52:50 Phantom_Hoover: help help help i'm stuck 15:52:53 Phantom_Hoover: And, I just won't. 15:53:00 Phantom_Hoover: It's okay for the very bottom floor to be a bit uneven. 15:53:07 Phantom_Hoover: This thing *is* going to have something like 20 floors. 15:53:14 Or more. 15:53:31 Phantom_Hoover: The last three floors or so will be lined with obsidian on the walls and floors/ceilings, anyway (apart from the final bedrock floor). 15:53:38 !haskell 20^3 15:53:39 Phantom_Hoover: They are intended for the post-apocalyptic scenarios. 15:54:08 Perhaps I ought to do something about that... 15:54:13 Phantom_Hoover: About what? 15:54:19 The apocalypse. 15:54:21 Ah. 15:54:31 Wait, I have a 200-metre long warship under construction. 15:54:34 Ostensibly. 15:54:37 Indeed :P 15:55:16 Phantom_Hoover: FUN FACT! My cube will be 2,097,152 m^3 (and thus blocks). 15:55:37 Phantom_Hoover: I am going to rent out sections of it for free because let's face it, I can't even fill a 128x128 floor with my stuff. 15:55:48 !help 15:55:57 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 15:56:03 !haskell 20^3 15:56:05 8000 15:57:06 !haskell 2097152**(1/3) 15:57:10 127.99999999999997 15:57:45 Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and I'm also going to need TONS OF LAVA. 15:57:57 elliott, bug ineiros? 15:57:59 Phantom_Hoover: I'd like the lighting layers to be just one tall, so I can't use a bunch of falls. 15:58:10 Phantom_Hoover: So I'm going to need 128 * 128 * floors pieces of lava. 15:58:21 Yeah, I'm gonna ask ineiros to put some readily-accessible lava near the spawnpoint. :p 16:04:25 Phantom_Hoover: Taking a break already? 16:04:42 I love lava, red and hot 16:04:55 Yes. 16:06:31 -!- perdito|afk has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:12:40 meh minecraft 16:13:44 We like it, shut up. 16:13:49 alas, poor yorick, stepping into a minefield 16:14:30 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:15:16 http://www.maumae.net/yorick/doc/index.php 16:15:26 -!- nopseudoidea has joined. 16:17:07 -!- perdito|afk has joined. 16:17:30 ais523: does C-INTERCAL work with -jN? 16:17:36 ais523: its makefile, that is 16:38:11 * yorick stabs the Yorick namers 16:38:46 they're making those annoying "AI" bots say "yorick: you are an interpreted programming language" 16:52:54 ais523: hmm, can I have your esoteric opinion on something? 16:53:01 or oerjan's :P 17:08:52 (fn P P) A = A. 17:08:52 (fn P (F X)) A = (fn P F A) (fn P X A). 17:08:53 (fn P X) A = X. 17:08:54 Behold! Lambdas! 17:12:11 doesn't work if X is of the form (fn ... ...) with A inside somewhere 17:12:41 oerjan: hm? howso? 17:12:47 er i mean P inside 17:13:01 oerjan: don't quite see how that applies (although it certainly is failing in my tests :D 17:13:03 *:D) 17:13:17 also it seems to be non-lazy, Y foo is always diverging :p 17:13:20 ...you have no rule for that case 17:13:42 (fn P (fn Q P)) A 17:14:00 oerjan: = (fn P ((fn Q) P)) A 17:14:07 and that's the case which requires all the alpha machinery 17:14:08 oerjan: so F = fn Q, X = P 17:14:16 but yeah fucking alpha conversion 17:14:20 oerjan: i hereby invite you to fix it! ^_^ 17:14:27 i hereby decline 17:15:54 oerjan: a cool thing about this though 17:15:55 >>> (fn x (fn y x)) hello 17:15:56 ... 17:15:58 fn y hello 17:16:02 is that it SPECIALISES :P 17:17:42 mhm 17:17:56 i'll try it with de bruijn indexes... 17:18:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:20:23 meh : 17:20:24 :p 17:21:11 elliott: yep, it works with -jN for all positive integer N (that are small enough for make to parse correctly); and you can try to have my opinion, but I may not be paying attention 17:21:45 ais523: alas, my problem was another entirely and your opinion is thus not useful 17:21:59 ais523: but cool, let's see if i can get C-INTERCAL's latest release into Kitten 0.1 17:22:06 ais523: is there a convenient list of dependencies? 17:22:45 to what degree of granularity? 17:22:46 there are several 17:22:57 hmm, the list for DOS is probably best, as none of the software you need is installed on DOS by default 17:24:45 binutils, gcc, make, bash, diffutils, fileutils, findutils, awk, sed, shellutils, textutils; bison and flex are needed to recompile all the way from sources, texinfo and asciidoc (ugh esr) for the documentation 17:25:55 most are only needed for the build system to work 17:27:24 -!- nopseudoidea has quit (Quit: Quitte). 17:29:11 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 17:29:28 ais523: asciidoc is nicer than texinfo, but why the fuck use two?? 17:29:44 ais523: also, I doubt the latest release requires AsciiDoc, only the git, right? 17:31:30 ais523: in which case it doesn't matter 17:34:06 "SonicBlue was sued over the commercial-skipping feature of ReplayTV on similar grounds. "Your contract when you get the show is you're going to watch the spots [advertisements]. … Any time you skip a commercial … you're actually stealing the programming," asserts Turner Broadcasting CEO Jamie Kellner. He admits that "there's a certain amount of tolerance" for going to the bathroom during commercials." 17:41:22 ais523: ping? 17:42:25 pong 17:42:35 elliott: esr converted the README to asciidoc 17:42:41 with the result that it has random backslashes in now 17:42:54 ais523: so, only a problem in git. right. 17:42:58 as soon as you introduce escaping, everything goes wrong with that sort of format 17:42:59 and yes 17:43:42 ais523: I'll probably be wholly unreasonable and maintain my own constantly-out-of-date C-INTERCAL that has all the non-stupid things merged back in. Should I call it something else? :p 17:44:28 nah, just change what it stands for 17:44:38 ais523: Anyway, so there are no library dependencies? 17:45:27 no, apart from libc and the libraries it builds itself 17:45:30 well, cfunge, but that's optional 17:47:09 ais523: yeah i am *not* planning to build an iffi build :) 17:50:17 -!- augur has joined. 17:50:29 ais523: Does this look kosher to you? 17:50:35 ./configure --prefix= 17:50:47 make install -j$(NPROCS) DESTDIR=$1 17:50:58 To build C-INTERCAL. 17:51:02 s/$(NPROCS)/$NPROCS/ 17:53:05 -!- iamcal has joined. 17:54:00 -!- Zuu has joined. 17:54:02 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:55:52 ais523: please tell me if I've misrepresented your compiler :P: 17:55:53 C-INTERCAL is an implementation of Compiler Language With No 17:55:53 Pronounceable Acronym, abbreviated INTERCAL; it acts as a deobfuscator 17:55:53 by translating incomprehensible INTERCAL source code into vastly more 17:55:53 readable machine code, going through a C compiler on the way. It 17:55:53 supports all the common INTERCAL extensions, and has good 17:55:55 compatibility with CLC-INTERCAL. 17:56:23 (yes, yes, I stole the deobfuscator idea from the Debian packge description) 17:56:24 *package 17:58:24 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando). 18:06:10 it's not kosher, it has shrimps in it 18:07:19 ais523: i would like to express my complaint with c-intercal's default installation directories 18:07:24 *express a complaint 18:08:38 ais523: specifically, /share/ick-0.29/ should in fact be called /lib/ick-0.29/ or /libexec/ick-0.29/ 18:08:47 ais523: also, you shouldn't put the version name in the dirs like that 18:10:47 -!- nooga has joined. 18:11:08 ais523: ok i may be wrong about the share thing. but ick-0.29 is still wrong 18:11:32 especially for include/ 18:14:29 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:20:51 -!- jcp has joined. 18:27:44 ais523: I fixed your bug :) 18:34:26 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:39:51 -!- jcp has joined. 18:45:29 elliott, ever used cython? 18:45:42 Vorpal: i don't think i've *used* it but i know of it, yes 18:47:03 elliott, I had a reversi-playing thing to write as an assignment, using alpha-beta pruning. Course uses Python. It was kind of slow. I optimised it as much as I could to be able to increase search depth from 3 ply to something greater. So 3 ply = about 19 seconds in pure python when playing against itself. 18:47:12 elliott, with cython + some type annotation = 3 seconds 18:47:13 :D 18:47:19 python really really sucks 18:47:36 very computation heavy though 18:48:04 elliott, and well, lets see what adding further type annotation will do 18:48:24 2.3 seconds now 18:50:14 Vorpal: are you sure they'll accept Cython... 18:50:23 Vorpal: also, Did You Try Psyco First 18:50:34 (TM) 18:50:40 elliott, no, but I'll mention it in the report to hope to make them realise how silly python is for this task :P 18:50:46 elliott, also down to 1.7 seconds 18:50:58 Vorpal: try psyco (need 32-bit python) 18:51:01 without any cython 18:51:09 elliott, yeah I would need to setup a 32-bit python somewhere 18:51:13 probably needs a chroot 18:52:04 Vorpal: 18:52:05 # pkgcross x86 python 18:52:10 $ /arch/x86/bin/python foo.py 18:52:12 elliott, on what system? 18:52:13 .... 18:52:13 oh wait sorry you don't use kitten NEVER MIND 18:52:21 elliott, I can't use it yet 18:52:25 so that is pointless 18:52:35 yeah you can you just have to implement all the bits that aren't done or that i haven't released! 18:52:41 which is ALL of them! 18:53:48 CFLAGS=-Os ./configure --prefix= 18:53:48 make install -j$NPROCS ICK_SPECIFIC_SUBDIR=ick DESTDIR="$1" 18:53:53 Vorpal: look what horrible things ick makes me do! 18:53:57 yes indeed, I have to set a whole ONE variable! 18:54:11 (and only then because I think it should be that way anyway :P) 18:54:16 Also, yes, the lack of / after --prefix= is intentional. 18:54:22 because stuff does $(prefix)/foo 18:54:24 which would become //foo 18:56:16 elliott, hah 18:56:47 Vorpal: (ICK_SPECIFIC_SUBDIR usually includes the version, which is stupid because this way it goes into /share/ick and /include/ick like it should, not /share/ick- and /include/ick-) 18:57:06 elliott, also down to 0.6 seconds now. cython has a nice mode where it renders to html and colour codes lines (white to yellow) to indicate how much conversion between python and C data types is going on 18:57:08 rather useful 18:57:44 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:58:12 is nobody on minecraft? :( 18:58:33 elliott, no time today 18:59:30 I'm at a bit of a loss as to where to build the Cube... 19:00:51 -!- jcp has joined. 19:02:42 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:09:57 elliott, actually I have to say cython is quite a nice language to use. On one hand when you need speed it isn't sluggish. On the other hand you can still use "high level" stuff when you need (such as non-painful dynamically growing lists) 19:10:01 and easily mix those 19:10:33 the Cube? what? 19:13:09 nooga: minecraft. 19:15:20 falses = cons false falses. 19:15:20 bch = bch1 nil falses. 19:15:20 bch1 (state (L : Ls) Rs) (left : Ps) = bch1 (state Ls (L : Rs)) Ps. 19:15:20 bch1 (state Ls (R : Rs)) (moustache : Ps) = bch1 (state ((not R) : Ls) Rs) Ps. 19:15:20 bch1 (state Ls (R : Rs)) ((loop LPs) : Ps) = if R then bch1 (bch1 (bch1 Ls Rs LPs)) ((loop LPs) : Ps) else (bch1 (state Ls (R : Rs)) Ps). 19:15:22 this better work 19:18:09 it does not! but it is close 19:18:36 -!- cheater99 has joined. 19:29:06 oerjan: ais523: could you delete [[Image:P''.png]]? thanks 19:31:05 i'm not an admin 19:33:06 oerjan: well 19:33:07 why not :P 19:33:34 Why are you programming in moustaches 19:34:32 Slereah: it's what i call } 19:34:34 i'm trying to do bitchanger 19:34:42 in anemone 19:35:12 What's anemone? 19:35:15 State machine? 19:36:16 Oh 19:36:20 Just a... 19:36:22 What's the name 19:36:26 Like BNF 19:36:40 elliott: um you are still linking to that image from Prehistory. also that messes up the table of contents. 19:37:02 oerjan: ' != ′ 19:37:05 Slereah: it's a term rewriter. 19:37:11 not like bnf 19:37:24 oerjan: good point about ToC, i'll fix 19:49:14 also presumably i'm not admin because no one has made me one 19:49:39 * oerjan now off to discover new and impressive tautologies 19:49:44 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:49:54 elliott: you know your advice about using IE when Firefox wouldn't download executables? 19:50:15 it seems that something had really really locked the system down, IE wouldn't download them either but at least it gave a vaguely useful error message 19:50:25 ah 19:50:46 ais523: I asked you a few things when you were gone; can I re-paste them? 19:50:46 Hey, elliott didn't respond to anything I said in the log 19:50:49 That's unusual 19:50:51 in the end, I had to identify Microsoft's download domains and set them to trusted status in IE, and also set the security settings for trusted sites (which atm is /only/ three microsoft.com subdomains) to the lowest settings 19:50:52 elliott: go for it 19:51:00 ais523: Does this look kosher to you? 19:51:00 ./configure --prefix= 19:51:00 make install -j$(NPROCS) DESTDIR=$1 19:51:00 To build C-INTERCAL. 19:51:00 s/$(NPROCS)/$NPROCS/ 19:51:03 ais523: like, the virus you wanted to download anti-virus for? >:D 19:51:04 ais523: please tell me if I've misrepresented your compiler :P: 19:51:05 C-INTERCAL is an implementation of Compiler Language With No 19:51:05 Pronounceable Acronym, abbreviated INTERCAL; it acts as a deobfuscator 19:51:07 by translating incomprehensible INTERCAL source code into vastly more 19:51:09 readable machine code, going through a C compiler on the way. It 19:51:11 supports all the common INTERCAL extensions, and has good 19:51:13 compatibility with CLC-INTERCAL. 19:51:15 (yes, yes, I stole the deobfuscator idea from the Debian packge description) 19:51:17 *package 19:51:19 ais523: i would like to express my complaint with c-intercal's default installation directories 19:51:21 *express a complaint 19:51:22 ais523: specifically, /share/ick-0.29/ should in fact be called /lib/ick-0.29/ or /libexec/ick-0.29/ 19:51:26 ais523: also, you shouldn't put the version name in the dirs like that 19:51:28 ais523: ok i may be wrong about the share thing. but ick-0.29 is still wrong 19:51:30 especially for include/ 19:51:32 (the last one I've managed to fix without patching the code) 19:51:34 make install -j$NPROCS ICK_SPECIFIC_SUBDIR=ick DESTDIR="$1" 19:51:37 elliott: the versioned dirs are a historical thing, which cause all sorts of issues 19:51:39 ais523: and finally, the non-question that is "please delete http://esolangs.org/wiki/Image:P''.png" :P 19:51:41 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:51:48 ais523: hmm 19:51:48 there's a single line in the Makefile that can be changed to patch them back out 19:51:52 also, what caused the image? 19:51:52 ais523: you don't need to do that 19:51:55 make install -j$NPROCS ICK_SPECIFIC_SUBDIR=ick DESTDIR="$1" 19:52:00 ais523: I caused the image 19:52:06 elliott: yep, but Debian prefer patching makefiles for some reason 19:52:09 elliott: what were you trying to do? 19:52:11 elliott: i was just about to get ops now ;| 19:52:18 oerjan: what, for flooding? 19:52:21 ais523 gave me permission! 19:52:22 ais523: get the P'' logo 19:52:27 ais523: I've uploaded it under another name 19:52:30 (with the prime characters) 19:52:33 which is also easier to embed 19:52:37 [[Image:]] doesn't like quoets 19:52:39 *quotes 19:52:49 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:52:52 ais523: anyway, are there any plans to set ICK_SPECIFIC_SUBDIR=ick by default in a future version? 19:52:53 OK, done 19:52:57 -!- HackEgo has joined. 19:53:00 elliott: no, not at the moment 19:53:10 ais523: (btw, ick 0.-2.0.29 identifies as ick 0.29, but presumably that's intentional) 19:54:07 elliott: indeed, alphas identify as the version they'll eventually be released as 19:54:15 -!- Gregor has joined. 19:54:38 ais523: I'll probably stick with 0.-2.0.29 for a while, since it doesn't depend on asciidoc >:) 19:54:44 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest37696. 19:54:52 elliott: well it was damn hard to _notice_ the permission with all that flooding ;D 19:54:56 ais523: btw, I should probably leave out the yacc build dependency and just use the prebuilt ones, right? 19:55:09 elliott: I'm not sure 19:55:26 oerjan: since when did I have permission to tell people to flood in this channel? 19:55:31 also, are you an op? I keep losing track 19:55:33 he's ais523 19:55:35 i am 19:55:36 he has permission to do anything 19:55:44 ais523: well, if the results would be identical whether I do or I don't, then I'll leave out the dependency to avoid wasting space 19:55:55 also, Oozlybub and Murphy has the second best reason for its name ever, after INTERCAL 19:56:12 elliott: they might not be if bison is upgraded to produce compatible but better output 19:56:21 ais523: who said I'm using bison? 19:56:33 ah 19:56:35 ais523: heck, I'm not even using gcc :) 19:56:50 I know SunOS lex has issues with lexer.l 19:56:50 ais523: although I haven't yet tested C-INTERCAL with pcc 19:57:00 because it uses hardcoded maximums, and they're too low 19:57:07 ais523: here, I have a pcc/dietlibc toolchain here, let's see if it'll compile c-intercal 19:57:09 you can increase the maximums with options, but seriously? 19:57:16 elliott: I know it compiles cleanly with clang 19:57:37 also, I had a go at getting it working with bcc (a 16-bit K&R C compiler), I can't remember whether I managed it or not 19:57:45 ais523: by the way, I gunzipped the pax and then renamed it to .tar; am I a bad person? 19:57:51 every package has to be /var/pkg/NAME/source.tar 19:57:55 and I didn't feel like re-packing 19:59:29 $ CC="$K/stage2/bin/diet -Os $K/stage2/bin/pcc" CFLAGS="" ./configure 19:59:31 ais523: this better work! 20:00:02 ais523: wow, that was a fast build 20:00:08 $ time make -j3 20:00:08 ... 20:00:09 real0m4.847s 20:00:18 slowest part was all that oilout stuff 20:00:19 does it run? 20:00:28 $ ./ick 20:00:28 also, that's the slowest part of the build in gcc, too 20:00:28 ICL999INO SKELETON IN MY CLOSET, WOE IS ME! 20:00:29 ON THE WAY TO 1 20:00:29 CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT 20:00:31 ais523: close enough! 20:00:42 ais523: -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 384K Dec 2 19:59 ick 20:00:44 elliott: hmm, I hate skeleton errors 20:00:45 ais523: (statically linked) 20:00:54 what if you try installing it? 20:01:00 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:01:03 or try ./ick -u to see where it's looking 20:01:05 yeah, I'll just do it again with another prefix 20:01:18 yeah, it looked in the totally wrong places 20:01:40 ais523: anyway, 384K isn't bad, methinks 20:01:53 with skeleton errors you don't even have the bare bones of a solution 20:01:59 ais523: especially considering that the dietlibc printf functions are very half-assed because felix thinks people shouldn't use them :) 20:02:07 (they add like 7-8K to the binary) 20:02:15 elliott@dinky:~/ick-0.29$ $K/cint/bin/ick 20:02:15 elliott@dinky:~/ick-0.29$ 20:02:18 ais523: great success 20:02:30 ais523: now, uh oh, does it know to use the CC it was compiled with? 20:03:50 (did you ever respond to my package description? misrepresenting C-INTERCAL is incredibly shameful!) 20:04:11 elliott: I'm not sure; it will respect the CC environment variable 20:04:24 and it doesn't look that misrepresented, except that I find INTERCAL easier to read than the machinecode it compiles to 20:04:33 any flag to ask it what it thinks CC is? :p 20:04:43 ais523: what good would an *accurate* description of an INTERCAL compiler be? 20:05:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:07:10 -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 104K Dec 2 20:06 pi 20:07:22 but it matches "GCC" 20:07:26 indeed 20:07:41 ais523: does it respect CFLAGS? 20:09:14 elliott: I can't remember 20:09:16 I don't think so 20:09:42 elliott: if you use -c, the command to compile it will be dumped in the Emacs local variables header in the output 20:09:51 yeah, I'm looking now 20:09:53 it puts -O2 in there 20:09:55 very irritating 20:10:19 if you use -g, it doesn't optimise 20:10:27 if you use -F, it goes up to -O3 20:10:48 ais523: hmm... would you accept a patch that (1) modularised libick, so that each relevant block of code goes in its own .o, so that statically-linked INTERCAL program are smaller; (2) made it so that ick generates C programs that do not call printf and friends, directly or indirectly (instead using either fwrite or write, depending on what you'll let me get away with :)), and (3) respects CFLAGS? 20:10:55 I could split those up, but I'm very lazy. 20:11:21 ais523: the end result would be much smaller statically-linked programs, basically (and leaner dynamically-linked programs too, although you wouldn't really notice it) 20:11:30 and also perhaps slightly faster, since printf is quite big 20:11:33 emphasis on slightly 20:13:21 elliott: splitting it up would help; I'd almost certainly accept (3), (2) and (1) are more contentious 20:13:37 what do we use printf for in the generated C at the moment anyway? 20:13:47 ais523: I have no idea; probably error reporting or something silly like that. 20:14:08 ais523: I don't see why (1) should be contentious; it *only* affects libick.a, not any shared version (are there any?) 20:14:13 what about replacing it with puts and putchar 20:14:34 ais523: hmm... well, I wouldn't bother writing such a patch 20:14:55 ais523: really, the improvements are: going from printf -> anything else; and going from stdio -> write(2)/read(2) 20:14:55 elliott: changing which files exist require a) working out how they fit in with all the various permutations of build systems, b) working out which go in which version of libick.a, c) thinking up witty names for them 20:15:04 both have a rather dramatic impact 20:15:10 elliott: do you not have a libc that lets you set stdio as a thin wrapper? 20:15:18 ais523: a thin wrapper? haha 20:15:24 write(2) and read(2) aren't portable, they don't exist on Windows 20:15:32 ais523: with the amount of stuff stdio is required to do, you can't make a thin wrapper 20:15:40 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:15:46 ais523: also, you use autoconf right? 20:15:52 easy enough to condition on read/write being present 20:15:53 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:16:07 Hmm, mplayer is desyncing audio... 20:16:41 -autosync 30 doesn't seem to help... 20:17:00 ais523: I mean, 116K is really rather dismal, considering that useful dietlibc-based programs can be on the order of 7K. 20:17:02 -!- Guest37696 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 20:17:14 I'd say that these changes together could lead to, say, a 30K pi, as a first estimate. 20:17:26 Perhaps a bit bigger. 20:18:43 elliott: I like how you don't have /usr. 20:19:02 pikhq: I like that too! It's yet another reason for Vorpal to say he'll never use it ever. 20:19:10 And lord knows I don't have nearly enough of those. 20:20:09 pikhq: Maybe I'll be all old-school Unix and make /usr the home directory. :) 20:20:24 Hah. 20:20:48 pikhq: Fun fact: /usr/bin originates from the fact there was, in research unix 4 or 5 or something, a user/group named bin, whose home directory -- /usr/bin -- had a bunch of tools. 20:20:53 pikhq: I have seen this personally on an emulator. 20:21:04 That's amazing. 20:22:03 pikhq: Then some luser decided that usr didn't mean usr because there was a single directory in there with binaries, and broke up everything. 20:22:22 And now, kids, even today, it is used to justify silly partitioning schemes where nothing has any leg room. 20:22:25 ~th end~ 20:22:26 *the end 20:22:49 ais523: "Berkeley Yacc (byacc) is generally conceded to be the best yacc variant available. In contrast to bison, it is written to avoid dependencies upon a particular compiler." 20:22:56 ais523: challenge: write a less objectively-agreed-upon statement than that 20:22:58 well, than the first sentence 20:23:12 wtf: running this reversi-algorithm against itself gave a pretty pattern looking like an arrow. A symmetrical one in colours 20:23:14 "The Holocaust is generally conceded to have been a wonderful event full of puppies and unicorns." 20:23:24 * Vorpal goes to take a screenshot 20:23:30 (not insulting byacc, just loling at the sentence) 20:24:07 ais523: btw, according to my understanding of BSD/MIT/GPL, I have to include the license, with copyright notice, on every system that installs the package. is this true? 20:24:11 elliott: "Berkeley Yacc (byacc) is the One True Yacc." 20:24:33 pikhq: "This is not the yacc you are looking for." 20:24:50 pikhq: "OS/2 is widely regarded to be the best and most widely-used server operating system." 20:24:52 berkeley yacc is best yacc 20:25:10 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:25:17 Just like North Korea is best Korea. 20:25:36 pikhq: That is simply a factual statement. 20:25:40 THANK YOU, COMRADE OBVIOUS 20:26:04 `addquote berkeley yacc is best yacc Just like North Korea is best Korea. THANK YOU, COMRADE OBVIOUS 20:26:20 alas, hackego just pinged out 20:26:36 pikhq, I hear South... no, wait, they have professional StarCraft players. 20:26:45 oerjan: You're welcome, Comrade. 20:26:47 oerjan: hackego totally needs to read the clog logs when it reconnects and perform all the actions there 20:26:47 North is clearly superior. 20:26:50 elliott, very strange result: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/tmp/reversi-ab_prune_against_self.png 20:26:51 (after quoting them, naturally) 20:27:01 Vorpal: wtf: running this reversi-algorithm against itself gave a pretty pattern looking like an arrow. A symmetrical one in colours 20:27:05 Vorpal: "in colours" made me think "colourful" 20:27:07 i am disappointed 20:27:07 Phantom_Hoover: Televised and popular, no less. 20:27:13 Phantom_Hoover: They even make product endorsements. 20:27:15 elliott, err what? 20:27:24 elliott, how would that work? 20:27:29 Vorpal: like N-colour reversi! 20:27:30 somehow 20:27:33 elliott, that would be nice 20:27:41 elliott, but anyway, the pattern is strange 20:27:45 pikhq, I am tempted to join the DPRK Appreciation Society. 20:28:09 [[The My World Tour is an upcoming concert tour by Justin Bieber. It is his first official headlining tour, and is promoted by AEG Live, and Live Nation. The tour is anticipated to have multiple legs, and the supporting acts for the first will be Sean Kingston and Jessica Jarrell. Pop girl group The Stunners will also serve as an opening act for the first twenty dates. The tour is set to support his first release, My World, and its follow-up, My 20:28:10 World 2.0. Who wants Justin the most? Decide now... 20:28:10 CONTEST IS CLOSED. THE WINNER IS NORTH KOREA WITH 659141 VOTES]] 20:28:15 I really hope he goes to North Korea. 20:28:17 "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" is such a mistranslation. 20:28:30 pikhq: But the BEST mistranslation! 20:28:31 "Democratic People's Republic of Choson". 20:28:53 pikhq: Oppressed Starver's Republic of Korea doesn't have the same ring to it. 20:29:16 elliott: They actually call the country Choson. For... No reason at all. 20:29:28 corea 20:30:09 oh, that poll isn't official 20:30:11 LAME 20:30:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseon_Dynasty 20:31:28 oerjan: Okay, okay, so it has historical relevance. 20:31:44 But still: the North and South can't even agree on what to call the country. 20:32:08 The ROK is Han, DPRK is Choson... 20:32:47 * oerjan thought Han referred to ethnic chinese 20:32:49 pikhq: I went to put #kitten on freenode but it's REGISTERED so I'm going to make it on OFTC^WBest Free Software Network. 20:32:59 Be there or be oblong. 20:33:08 obloid. 20:36:06 Heh... There's apparently second cause of IPv6 making things "slow" besides the "computer thinks it has IPv6 but doesn't"-problem: IPv6 routing is a lot more unstable than IPv4 routing... 20:37:58 ais523: so can I get the green-light to use write(2)/read(2) if they're present? 20:41:57 Ilari: Probably something to do with *significantly* fewer routers being IPv6. 20:42:00 pikhq is just not cool enough for OFTC. 20:45:15 Or actually it is "computer doesn't have a route to destination via IPv6" problem. 20:45:37 OFTC once declared war on pikhq. 20:46:28 * Phantom_Hoover declares war on pikhq. 20:47:31 * pikhq declares pikhq on war 20:48:07 pikhq: OFTC! #KITTEN! SQUARENESS DONATED TO ALL NOT PRESENT! 20:48:32 Or the great IPv6 routing split... 20:51:12 Ilari: ? 20:51:45 Some IPv6 upstreams have seriously incomplete routing table... 20:51:53 *facepalm* 20:53:05 -!- Gregor has joined. 20:53:10 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest24183. 20:53:18 Fun issues ensue if are trying to reach host that is unroutable over IPv6 but reachable over IPv4. 20:53:39 -!- Guest24183 has changed nick to Gregor. 20:54:16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_(trilobite) 20:55:04 Gregor: yon bots are dead 20:55:19 bon mots are dead 20:55:20 -!- wareya_ has joined. 20:57:11 oerjan: My friggin' everything was dead, patience :P 20:58:22 -!- HackEgo has joined. 20:58:22 -!- EgoBot has joined. 20:58:25 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:59:00 Gregor: PRGMR RELIABLE UPTIME 21:04:16 *pfft* 21:04:29 NASA discovers life form that uses arsenic instead of phosphorous. 21:04:52 pikhq, hmm. 21:04:54 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:05:00 That's... Woah. 21:05:09 Wait, yes, yes it is. 21:05:18 They _don't have DNA or RNA_. 21:05:39 Yes, they have completely different nucleic acids. 21:06:01 Yes. 21:06:07 Arse-nic. 21:06:26 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:08:28 Actually, apparetly only the PO4 linking groups have been replaced by AsO4 groups... 21:10:39 That's still pretty astounding. 21:12:13 -!- fizzie has joined. 21:19:07 -!- sjn has joined. 21:19:24 -!- sjn has left (?). 21:22:02 brb 21:29:33 How do I get this bloody computer to tell me my CPU model? 21:30:12 PRAY 21:32:08 O god, tell me in thine infinite wisdom the model of mine unworthy CPU. 21:33:11 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 21:34:21 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:47:05 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:51:43 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:58:21 -!- Zuu has joined. 22:03:36 -!- perdito|afk has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:03:46 x264 is officially ridiculous. 22:03:52 http://x264.nl/developers/Dark_Shikari/Flash/UltraLowBitrateAnime.mp4 67 kbps encode. 22:04:02 I did not omit a digit there. 22:04:09 Sixty-seven kilobits per second. 22:06:00 ha 22:08:13 And Dark Shikari claims he should redo that encode, because x264 has gotten better since. 22:12:59 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:22:12 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:29:52 fog 22:32:29 Phantom_Hoover: MC 22:32:36 Nooooooooooooooooooooooo 22:32:43 You: addicted. 22:32:52 YOU HAVE BECOME AS UNTO VORPAL 22:34:47 Phantom_Hoover: Actually, I'm just bored and MC without anyone else there is boring. 22:34:56 Phantom_Hoover, what? don't insult me. I had other stuff to to today. I haven't been on 22:35:17 Vorpal, I was actually mocking elliott there. 22:35:30 Phantom_Hoover, and insulting me at the same time 22:35:39 Since he went on about you being addicted whenever the server died and you asked ineiros why. 22:35:47 Phantom_Hoover, indeed :P 22:35:56 he is way more addicted than me 22:36:15 Vorpal: Seriously? 22:36:20 I don't actually play often at all. 22:36:22 I just hated being interrupted in a task. 22:36:25 in any task 22:36:25 I haven't mined in days. 22:36:32 In fact I've done nothing in days. 22:36:35 elliott, you been on doing other stuff though 22:36:40 Vorpal: Like? 22:36:42 elliott, I saw you jumping that water fall 22:36:56 Which waterfall? The one you made yesterday? 22:37:02 elliott, the one I made yes 22:37:15 You did that and *also* made it, so that does not demonstrate that I am "way more" addicted in any way. 22:37:19 It just demonstrates that I do in fact play it. 22:37:40 elliott, indeed but you have been complaining about no one being on today 22:37:48 elliott, I almost never complained about the place being empty 22:38:01 Because I've been rather bored today. Also I think I've complained twice. 22:38:16 okay, I haven't counted 22:38:21 10:58:12 is nobody on minecraft? :( 22:38:24 Phantom_Hoover: MC 22:38:27 that's all 22:38:36 elliott, anyway then you don't have to chat with people, instead you can get on building stuff! 22:38:39 ok, I also bugged Phantom_Hoover about it in #kitten :P 22:38:49 Vorpal: The only thing I want to build is the Cube and that needs the Server. 22:39:05 elliott, you could locate an area, and start marking out the boundaries 22:39:21 elliott, stuff like that just need a handful of dirt or cobblestone blocks 22:39:22 elliott, you bugged me because you couldn't deal with the fact that a photo of a kitten is not in fact a very good logo. 22:39:38 Phantom_Hoover, photos are almost never good logos 22:39:47 Vorpal, as I told him! 22:39:49 Vorpal: Not only was it a kitten, it was *on a computer*. 22:39:57 logos need to be more... symbolic, line art 22:40:00 Are you suggesting that there is something better than a kitten on a computer for ANY PURPOSE WHATSOEVER? 22:40:07 elliott, it would work if it was lineart of a kitten on a computer 22:40:10 but a photo: no 22:40:12 elliott, you could locate an area, and start marking out the boundaries 22:40:12 elliott, stuff like that just need a handful of dirt or cobblestone blocks 22:40:17 i'm fairly sure I need to make my own sea. 22:40:20 elliott, but it was a photo! And a jpeg! With a detailed and necessary background! 22:40:22 elliott, hm 22:40:35 http://filebin.ca/tvzvtn/sintel_trailer-240-pass3.mkv 22:40:41 It's a 768k video. 22:40:42 make your own sea with cobblestone blocks 22:40:44 And it doesn't look bad. 22:40:50 (aside from being 240p) 22:40:54 elliott, I suggest to the east because it will be closer to spawn than any other suitably large area 22:41:12 elliott, and minecarts will be close. Skyway will need a bit more 22:41:15 Vorpal: I don't care about proximity to spawn, only civilisation. 22:41:22 "The Blender Foundation". 22:41:23 Also Server said that he probably doesn't want it within 500 metres of spawn. 22:41:26 elliott, well, it is close to civilisation too 22:41:34 elliott, hm 22:41:39 elliott, north-west then? 22:41:53 pikhq, if that isn't related with the Society for the Advancement of Blenders I will be sorely disappointed. 22:41:57 Vorpal: Perhaps. Or I could just flood a large area on the path of the skyway from Vorpal to Hoover. 22:42:02 I ♥ x264. 22:42:02 Phantom_Hoover: Blender as in the 3D tool. 22:42:10 elliott, sssshhhhh! 22:42:11 elliott, that would work too 22:42:19 Vorpal: I'd also need TNT to get rid of some of the bigger mountains, probably. 22:42:35 elliott, as long as it is out of sight from my extruding glass room 22:42:39 elliott, (on far) 22:42:47 pikhq, how many opinions do you have about multimedia encoding? 22:42:57 elliott, or if visible on far, at least some distance away 22:42:59 Phantom_Hoover: Many! 22:43:09 Vorpal: If it isn't, that's not my fault; you don't own a huge radius around your mountain. 22:43:12 Phantom_Hoover: Rule #1: x264 is the best. Period. 22:43:14 Anyway, it's made out of glass, dammit, it's transparent. 22:43:19 elliott, I want a nature view, not looking up the side of an industrial building :P 22:43:41 Vorpal: Yeah... you do realise this thing is gonna be darn pretty, right? 22:43:50 It's ENTIRELY MADE OUT OF GLASS. With nice LAVA making it shine. 22:43:53 elliott, and yes sure but not completely, anyway that valley below the skyway entrance I have built stuff like a lava fall in 22:43:59 elliott, sure it is, but so is the nature 22:43:59 pikhq, why? 22:44:02 Well I'm not building /there/. 22:44:07 elliott, :) 22:44:10 Probably 1/3 of the way to Hoover or whatever. 22:44:14 Wherever is flattest. 22:44:16 elliott, that should be fine 22:44:22 probably 22:44:51 Phantom_Hoover: It is literally the best encoder. To match its quality with an encoder for any *other* compression scheme, you need to *at least double* the bit rate. 22:44:54 checking on map atm 22:45:16 pikhq: Such a shame that H.264 is so proprietary. 22:45:43 Phantom_Hoover: And for h.264, it is similar in quality but slightly higher than the highest-quality proprietary encoder, and it beats all the others about as badly as it beats, say, MPEG-2 encoders. 22:45:56 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Quit: Quit). 22:46:08 elliott: It is a shame, indeed. 22:46:58 elliott, you see that kind of rectangular mountain on http://a322.org/mc/topo-2010-11-29.png between me and PH? Just above the skyway. Quite close to my place. There is a blue area below it (lake). Beyond that mountain is quite flat. Why not there (and save the mountain as it is, it is pretty) 22:47:09 elliott, it seems to be a solution that fits everyone 22:47:29 The UK doesn't acknowledge software patents, does it? 22:47:32 http://x264.nl/developers/Dark_Shikari/Flash/UltraLowBitrateAnime.mp4 67 kbps encode. 22:47:34 just actually played this 22:47:43 w.t.f. pikhq i was expecting lameish quality 22:47:47 elliott: And that's an *old* demonstration. 22:47:48 it's better than youtube! 22:47:58 Vorpal: Maybe. I'll see about it. 22:48:13 Vorpal: I would prefer to use an existing sea. (Are there any known seas that are 128x128 big?) 22:48:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:48:19 128x128 is pretty big. 22:48:29 In fact, how far does Far see? 22:49:05 elliott: If you reduce the resolution to about what Youtube uses for its lowest-quality videos, but keep the bit rate, you end up having an almost transparent encode. 22:49:12 -!- Sasha2 has joined. 22:49:13 See my filebin post. 22:49:37 pikhq: Hmm... I just had a stupid thought that maybe might sorta work. 22:49:53 elliott, hm 22:50:05 In fact, how far does Far see? <-- not sure, pretty far 22:50:10 pikhq: Have lossy x264 encoding. For each frame, store a compressed -- PNG or whatever -- image diff of the lossy encoding to the lossless (i.e. lossless - lossy or whatever) 22:50:19 Vorpal: 128 blocks far? 22:50:28 elliott, more than that I think 22:50:34 Vorpal: Aww. 22:50:37 elliott, I can see from me to fizzie 22:50:44 elliott, a bit more than that 22:50:45 I'm not sure that would be an *astounding* lossless compression scheme, but it would certainly work decently. 22:50:47 That's not 128, I don't think. 22:51:00 pikhq: Would it beat your zero-quantisation encodes? 22:51:10 Far sees a bit less than 200 blocks, but I'd say it's over 128. 22:51:20 pikhq: I can't imagine the diffs being *too* big, even on a relatively low bitrate... 22:51:24 You can almost see the other end of PH's ship from one end. 22:51:28 elliott, I'll measure on the map 22:51:31 elliott: I don't *think* so. 22:51:32 pikhq: Then again, it is every single frame... 22:51:33 fizzie, indeed 22:51:42 -!- Sasha has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:51:51 elliott: Though it would probably beat everything not x264 anyways. :P 22:52:00 "You Must Learn JavaScript" ;; no I mustn't, you webfag. 22:52:23 "It’s my belief that every single programmer should learn JavaScript." ;; one day you will discover that people write programs that don't get shown in Safari 22:52:43 "Knowing JavaScript well is probably one of the most challenging and rewarding things you can do as a programmer." 22:52:44 what? 22:52:48 how is learning javascript challenging at all 22:52:50 elliott, about 190 I'd say 22:53:06 Could even be 192. :p 22:53:12 Probably 192, yeah. 22:53:12 something like that 22:53:13 :p 22:53:20 it is approx, I measured on map 22:53:31 Yeah, but there's no power of two near 192 other than... 192. 22:53:37 indeed 22:53:44 erm 22:53:46 Yeah, but there's no power of two near 190 other than... 192. 22:53:55 192 is not a power of two either, but still. 22:54:14 elliott, and I believe it might be inexact. As in: a chunk is either visible or not 22:54:29 the distance I measured was diagonal 22:54:33 so that would be relevant 22:54:46 fizzie: Close enough! 22:55:14 elliott: As for existing seas, a 128x128 block would fit to the big sea that's to east of spawn (not immediately east, but further; it starts about as far from spawn than Mt. Vorpal is, euclidinially speaking. 22:55:23 elliott: BTW: Youtube's video bitrates start at 250kbps and go up from there. 22:55:51 elliott, I can see a distance that is at least 194 (near upper door entrance to end of huge stairs 22:55:57 pikhq: Is it just me, or do YouTube videos load painfully slowly? 22:55:59 elliott, which indicates it is probably per chunk 22:56:02 That's 250kbps for the 240p videos they had at the very start of the site. 22:56:02 not per block 22:56:20 fizzie: Yeah, but Server doesn't really want it within 500 blocks of spawn. 22:56:30 fizzie: So I'm better off starting at civilisation and going from there. 22:56:45 elliott, it would be 300 blocks away 22:56:49 Well, you could fit two 128x128 blocks in the big seas to the west, but those are pretty far. 22:56:50 definitely not visible from spawn 22:57:14 fizzie, not in one of them any more 22:57:27 fizzie: I do not plan to make *two* 128x128x128 cubes. :p 22:57:46 Vorpal: Hm? 22:57:49 fizzie, presumably you mean the one with a reed-lined shore? 22:58:01 fizzie, near that "easter egg"? 22:58:03 No, I meant the other one. 22:58:20 To north of the reed-lined-shore one. 22:58:24 fizzie, ah because I built a free-standing waterfall over ther 22:58:28 right 22:58:29 Yes, I saw it. 22:58:33 ah 22:58:38 fizzie, tried it with a boat? 22:58:49 Yes. (I borrowed your boat.) 22:59:03 fizzie, right 22:59:59 fizzie: Are *you* too boring to Minecraft today, too? 23:00:21 Yes, I'm just about to go to sleep, actually. 23:00:29 fizzie: So boering. 23:05:31 test 23:06:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:06:51 elliott, I'll make a map with some suggestions for possible placements within existing oceans 23:06:54 Also fun: the source video, at 480p lossless x264, hits DVD target bitrates... 23:08:21 Incidentally, I head-estimated some numbers earlier. If you intend to empty 128x128x16 (a very low-end estimate assuming depth of 16) blocks of water one by one, and assuming one operation per second (I'm not sure what sort of overall throughput you'd get, but it's in the ballpark) that's take 262144 seconds = about 72 solid hours. 23:09:14 fizzie: Yes, yes; I'm trying to think of *other* ways to drain the water other than doing it block-by-block. 23:09:30 fizzie: Suggestions welcome :P 23:09:32 Does TNT work in water? 23:12:01 elliott, no 23:12:03 fizzie's silence is not reassuring. 23:12:21 I've read something about safely removing TNT by detonating it underwater, so I'd guess no. 23:12:28 elliott, TNT still generate shockwave in water. But it does not destroy blocks 23:12:33 this is used to build TNT cannons 23:13:13 The wiki-page says "TNT can clear water and lava. -- However, if the TNT falls in water, the explosion will not destroy any blocks at all but still cause damage." -- which is quite unclear. 23:13:20 Also, smelting 128*128*16 (cube walls and ten interior levels, again a rather low estimate) blocks of sand into glass will take 728 hours (30 days). (And burn 32768 blocks of coal, or 2622 buckets of lava.) 23:13:54 fizzie: Um, I was going to get the sand delivered to me in glass form. 23:14:01 fizzie, what about placing the blocks assuming he had the glass? 23:14:20 I think skipping the many-months-long process of gathering 81 thousand blocks of sand and smelting them all, which is trivially feasible, just really boring, is acceptable. 23:15:00 Vorpal: Well, it's the same amount of blocks than in the water estimate earlier, so assuming block/second throughput, another 72 hours. 23:15:23 elliott, fizzie: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/tmp/placement.png 23:15:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 23:15:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host). 23:15:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 23:15:55 elliott, alt 3 which would be best is within 500 blocks 23:15:55 fizzie: Anyway, I'd actually have to empty 128*128*64 blocks of water. 23:16:13 I think 500 blocks was... not entirely serious. 23:16:14 elliott, no. Since water only goes down to about 50 23:16:15 so 23:16:22 64-50 for height 23:16:28 Well, okay, but definitely not 16. 23:16:36 fizzie: Anyway I'd build the actual levels over a long period of time. 23:16:39 64-50 is 14. 23:16:39 elliott, indeed. that is 14 23:16:40 :P 23:16:54 The seas aren't very deep. 23:17:15 indeed. And going down to 50 is rare. 52-53 is much more common 23:17:23 with a few smaller pits of 50 or so 23:17:24 True. 23:17:28 Still, you'd need to empty up that much space in general, so there. 23:17:41 and you only get 52 out near the middle 23:17:42 so yeah 23:17:49 Anyway, I never said it'd be easy. :p 23:17:57 elliott, still you need to mine a shitload of stuff below the sea 23:18:14 Vorpal: Or just use TNT... 23:18:21 If you can conjure up sand/grovel, I think the fastest way of getting rid of water is to just keep placing those blocks to fill it all up (they fall, so you can do a whole column without moving), then shovel/blow-up them away. 23:18:49 fizzie, you could do the torch trick 23:18:51 fizzie: Problem is, I'd have to have walls in place already... meaning TNT would be unwise. 23:19:05 You could TNT in the middle, though. 23:19:16 True. 23:19:17 still a shitload of TNT to do it 23:19:20 And anyway, shovels are fast, faster than "take a bucket, dump it down". 23:19:22 not sure I'd trust you with that 23:19:30 (if I was that admin that is) 23:19:46 fizzie: I would do 9 buckets at a time, obviously. 23:19:48 But yeah. 23:19:59 elliott, how would 9 buckets help? 23:20:01 -!- Sasha has joined. 23:20:03 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:20:07 elliott, elliott you can just empty it into another source 23:20:11 Vorpal: Larger period of monotony. 23:20:14 elliott, next to the one you are removing 23:20:19 elliott, which is probably faster 23:20:22 Oh, you can? Compress two sources? 23:20:23 Weird. 23:20:41 elliott, it's minecraft, what did you expect? 23:20:52 fizzie: Anyway, conjuring up sand is not the issue here, as I've established. :p 23:21:21 Anyway, those who help construct it get bigger free-rented spaces. 23:21:26 elliott, anyway since you don't plan water on top of the thing, getting rid of currents at the end should be ni issues 23:21:28 issue* 23:22:00 elliott, I can provide a shitload of cobblestone to help you with it certainly. For scaffolding and such 23:22:06 also a shitload of dirt 23:22:27 Vorpal: Work is more valuable than materials. :p 23:22:27 elliott, I have at least one large chest full of cobble + several partly filled ones 23:22:43 elliott, dirt: almost one filled 23:22:45 (not completely) 23:22:47 Incidentally, in order to give you 128*128*16 blocks of time, ineiros will have to repeat the /give command 4096 times, and it'd be 152 inventories worth. So I'd think you'd perhaps better wait until hMod time before the building in order for not to have to ask for glass all the time. 23:22:55 fizzie: He said he was going to automate it. 23:23:09 fizzie: He *can* just create a file with a huge number of commands, you know, and paste it in. 23:23:19 elliott, still you can decide on a place and put out markers there 23:23:24 elliott, that you can do today 23:23:32 elliott, so which of those places do you think is best? 23:23:35 Vorpal: I'm not going to be awake for long enough to research all the places today. 23:23:47 Yes, but you can't really get more than one inventory full of glass at a time, the rest will probably go and disappear before you have time to get them. 23:23:49 elliott, you saw the map I linked? 23:24:10 elliott, it is basically one of them if you don't want to be WAAY off from civilisation or have to build your own sea 23:24:18 and building your own sea is probably more work 23:24:33 Vorpal: Yes, but more impressive. :p 23:24:50 Vorpal: (And I wouldn't have to empty anything, if I built the underwater bit of the cube first. 23:24:51 elliott, you know that the water-source duplication thing only happens on a flat surface right? 23:24:56 elliott, up to altitude 1 23:24:59 as in 23:25:02 You could've crop-to-selection'd the map a bit. :p 23:25:10 you will have to build layer by layer down 23:25:17 Vorpal: Yeah... 23:25:18 fizzie, there are other sites further away 23:25:22 Vorpal: But I can get walls in before that. 23:25:23 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 23:25:29 elliott, so I think emptying it will be less work 23:25:37 Vorpal: What I really need to do is get a bitmap image 128x128, side view, zoom in, and start planning. 23:25:38 elliott, unless you want like a 2x wide channel around it 23:25:48 I need to figure out how many floors there'll be, how to make sure level 0 has a floor there, etc. 23:25:49 elliott, besides it won't look natural without a LOT of work 23:26:04 I also need to do experiments to determine how often I need lava lighting. 23:26:11 elliott, gimp: create new image, size 128x128 23:26:14 Hopefully only once every two floors, where a floor is about 5 blocks high. 23:26:23 I just hope that's enough. 23:26:29 -!- perdito|afk has joined. 23:26:40 (Since I want lighting to seem even throughout the whole building, even a 1/3rd diminishing would probably be bad) 23:26:42 elliott, you will certainly get lighting from below 23:26:50 Vorpal: true 23:26:51 hm 23:27:03 -!- Goosey has joined. 23:27:07 I know there's a formula or whatever but experimenting is easier. 23:27:11 elliott, also you *will* misplace blocks sometimes when building it 23:27:13 (Ha, how practical of me.) 23:27:15 Vorpal: I know! 23:27:21 -!- perdito|afk has changed nick to perdito. 23:27:23 You can experiment with torches; that's only one level less bright than lava. 23:27:23 elliott, which means you might need a few hundred blocks more 23:27:41 since they will be destroyed when you break them 23:28:02 Vorpal: And I also need more glass for *other* things, which is why I'm just going to ask for 131,072 pieces of glass, because that's a nice round number. 23:28:06 (2^17) 23:28:10 Or thereabouts. 23:28:11 Something like that. 23:28:13 hah 23:28:17 elliott, the other things being? 23:28:21 elliott, interior walls? 23:28:35 Vorpal: I need to build an underground tunnel to one of the first underground floors (the entrance; entering at ground level is fugly. So there'll just be a hole down to a glass, underwater tunnel connected to the cube.) 23:28:40 And yes, interior walls. 23:28:43 elliott, you realise that if you rent out space you need something that isn't glass to put things on 23:28:50 And also the fact that I need two floors for some floors to sandwich the lava. 23:28:54 Vorpal: I know that. 23:28:58 elliott, and minecart tracks I believe won't go on glass 23:28:59 Vorpal: Probably cloth, since it's nice and white. 23:29:07 elliott, and burns :P 23:29:16 Vorpal: Yeah, well, don't let the lava out. :P 23:29:19 indeed 23:29:32 Vorpal: And the bottom three levels will be completely obsidian-plated and lit with torches. 23:29:32 elliott, you know those jumping embers from lava 23:29:33 ? 23:29:35 Yes. 23:29:49 elliott, they don't hurt players but they *can* set fire to burnable blocks and burnable items 23:30:00 But you can't sensibly *get* 131072 blocks of glass at one time; even if ineiros generates that much by pasting in /give's, after your inventory is full, they'll just end up floating in the air where you were and disappear in 5-10 minutes. So you need some sort of glass-getting automation, and then you can just request as much as you actually need in sensibly-sized batches. 23:30:09 Vorpal: You do realise the lava has glass on either side? 23:30:11 elliott, not sure if they will jump through glass 23:30:18 elliott, I mean, considering how they are coded in general 23:30:25 fizzie: I'm going to make like 50 large chests, durr. :P 23:30:28 elliott, I have seen them jump through stone 23:30:41 Vorpal: Well, I've never been hurt inside the Glass Room of Hoover's. 23:30:50 or rather 23:30:53 never seen any embers at all 23:31:00 elliott, hm 23:31:10 I believe they jump up 23:31:12 not down 23:31:23 elliott, requesting in batches is probably better since that way you don't need to load from the chest 23:31:39 Vorpal: Well, to hit anything other than glass, they'd have to get through glass *and* whatever floor is being used in that part. 23:31:51 Also, yeah, I probably will. But a batch should fill 3 large chests are so. 23:31:52 *or so. 23:31:55 Because I need a lot. :p 23:32:04 hm 23:32:31 elliott, you might want to build a cobblestone 130x130 container and empty the water in it. Maybe 23:32:38 then build the thing inside 23:32:41 then remove the cobble 23:32:52 Vorpal: Yes, most likely. 23:33:12 elliott, also it needs a boatlevator. 23:33:17 elliott, do you know how far mine goes? 23:33:18 Yeah, you can build that. :p 23:33:23 elliott, in altitude 23:33:29 Down near bedrock, yes. I successfully rode it today. 23:33:35 I don't see how it'd work with 20 or so stops, though. 23:33:45 elliott, 5 above bedrock to 15 or so below max alt 23:33:46 Vorpal: At least I'll be able to proudly say that without the laws of physics changing, nobody will ever make a bigger cube than this. 23:33:55 elliott, hm stops would be an issue yeah 23:34:06 elliott, but maybe one to get to ground floor and then one to get to near max 23:34:20 elliott, remember it needs like 7 blocks at the top due to jumping up quite a bit 23:34:29 Vorpal: I was just going to use regular stairs; I mean, it wouldn't be that big a deal. 23:34:38 Although stairs are ugley. 23:34:45 (I'd use wood.) 23:34:59 hm 23:35:08 elliott, that would take forever to go up 23:35:20 Vorpal: Not *really*; have you ever walked up the bedrock-to-max Stairs? 23:35:27 elliott, sure I have 23:35:28 It only takes a minute or two, and that's for all the way. 23:35:40 elliott, and boatlevator takes.... 8 seconds or so? 23:35:48 plus maybe up to 20 to wait for the boat 23:35:50 Vorpal: Yes, but there needs to be a second or two at every single stop. 23:35:57 Let's say there's 20 floors; that's about right. 23:35:58 1.5 * 20 = 30. 23:36:03 hm 23:36:04 okay 23:36:04 So it has to take more than 30 seconds. 23:36:12 well 23:36:17 it won't be 20 if it is that short 23:36:18 And it's also, well, not that reliable if someone turns. 23:36:27 Vorpal: Eh? 23:36:37 oh right 23:36:45 I thought 20 was the delay 23:36:46 Let's say a floor's 6 high on average, taking into account that some of them will have 3-thick floors (extra lava layer, and ceiling); that's 21 floors. 23:36:48 floors 23:36:50 Right. 23:37:09 elliott, anyway boatlevator is not practical for anything less than, say, 60 blocks at a time 23:37:14 elliott, hm I seen another design 23:37:18 that allowed entry on side 23:37:24 and used a drop shaft to get down 23:37:29 elliott, I haven't tried it 23:37:41 Vorpal: Still; if anyone presses A or D there's a complete transport blackout in the Cube. :p 23:37:45 At least stairs never die. 23:37:49 but it might work if we only want to go up to one place from a lot of different ones 23:37:56 Gregor: http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/src/build/whitespace_file.txt?r1=67679&r2=67678&pathrev=67679 23:37:58 Gregor: Chrome: Somewhat sparta. 23:37:59 elliott, true 23:38:00 *Sparta. 23:38:36 Vorpal: Anyway I'm up for just about anything; the current plan is to just get it built, with lighting and completely empty floors. 23:38:45 Vorpal: Then we can smash a hole in it for an entrance, and go from there. 23:39:16 elliott, making holes in the lava levels would be annoying 23:39:22 Vorpal: What would be cool is having people's homes that are multi-storey; i.e. the regular floors aren't there, just an entrance and then whatever they want inside that block. 23:39:37 Vorpal: Yes, it would. I might figure out where to poke holes in the ceilings first. 23:39:37 elliott, I don't think you can place ladders on glass anyway so they are out of question I guess 23:39:49 Vorpal: I can always put some cloth against a wall... 23:39:53 true 23:40:01 Vorpal: Hell, I'd be fine lining every floor with cloth too. 23:40:11 elliott, I don't think you need that 23:40:13 As long as the whole thing is transparent from a distance. :p 23:40:17 Vorpal: Carpet! 23:40:25 elliott, just that you can't place "those not really blocks" on there 23:40:36 such as torches, tracks, and what not 23:40:41 That's so a flaw in Minecraft, though; why can't they go on glass. :p 23:41:02 The roof will be fun, you'll be able to climb up there and jump off into the sea. 23:41:18 elliott, it's a feature I bet. A feature to not need to make a texture for the back of a torch mounted against a wall or something 23:41:21 MAYBE 23:41:29 who knows 23:41:46 elliott, also minecart on glass: that would never work 23:41:51 Vorpal: why not! 23:42:06 elliott, I mean, it is completely unrealistic. Consider the load. Oh wait, this is minecraft. 23:42:12 Vorpal: Precisely :P 23:42:26 If it was realistic, you could fall from a distance onto glass and it'd shatter. 23:42:36 indeed 23:42:51 and you wouldn't get cubical cloth from sheep 23:43:01 and it wouldn't last as an outdoor road anyway 23:43:46 A cubic metre of cloth from a single sheep is a bit dubious too, even assuming you skip some steps there. 23:44:03 fizzie: More than that; you get two or three blocks. 23:44:40 and also obsidian a volcanic glass says wikipedia 23:44:41 huh 23:44:47 Well, lava. 23:45:04 "Obsidian has been used for blades in surgery, as well-crafted obsidian blades have a cutting edge many times sharper than high-quality steel surgical scalpels, the cutting edge of the blade being only about 3 nanometres thick." 23:45:08 wow that is cool 23:45:14 Heh, nice. 23:45:18 See, in Minecraft, it's just a bitch to mine. :P 23:45:32 elliott, and diamond should be harder actually 23:45:33 But it will be good for the last three levels, for when the world goes to shit! 23:45:50 "Even the sharpest metal knife has a jagged, irregular blade when viewed under a strong enough microscope; when examined even under an electron microscope an obsidian blade is still smooth and even. One study found that obsidian incisions produced narrower scars, fewer inflammatory cells, and less granulation tissue in a group of rats." 23:45:53 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:45:57 All the supplies and tools you need to rebuild the world, obsidian-lined for extra protection, and with indestructible bedrock base. 23:46:06 Nothing could be safer -- and by god don't fuck it up this time around. 23:46:10 "Obsidian is also used for ornamental purposes and as a gemstone. It possesses the property of presenting a different appearance according to the manner in which it is cut: when cut in one direction it is jet black; in another it is glistening gray. "Apache tears" are small rounded obsidian nuggets embedded within a grayish-white perlite matrix." 23:46:19 It is very pretty. 23:46:50 elliott, will you mine that obsidian? 23:46:54 "Apparently this removal of comprehension notation was due to the fact that generalising comprehensions to monads made errors arising from comprehensions difficult for novices to understand." 23:46:57 elliott, I mean seriously that will be a pain 23:46:58 hahahaha 23:47:05 Like that's the most of the problem with GHC's errors! 23:47:12 Vorpal: No, I'll probably just make it lava and wet it. :p 23:47:18 (TODO: figure out how to do vertical lava.) 23:47:21 elliott, they removed comprehension? 23:47:25 for what? 23:47:28 lists? 23:47:28 Vorpal: Monad comprehension. 23:47:30 In 1998. 23:47:31 ah 23:47:40 right 23:47:47 But lol @ removing it because it makes errors hard to understand; GHC mocks this pitiful attempt. 23:47:59 elliott, I can't figure out what monad comprehension is exactly 23:48:09 I mean, I can't imagine what the concept would be 23:48:11 Vorpal: List comprehension, but for monads. 23:48:29 hm 23:48:30 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:48:34 elliott, that makes my head spin 23:48:36 Vorpal: See http://blog.n-sch.de/2010/11/27/fun-with-monad-comprehensions/. 23:48:42 It explains it nicely. 23:48:44 "Plinths for audio turntables have been made of obsidian since the 1970s; e.g. the greyish-black SH-10B3 plinth by Technics." 23:49:13 Hrmm... 23:49:19 pikhq: You, Only Person Who Will Use Kitten Who Isn't Me! 23:49:40 pikhq: Should the main libc be dietlibc or uClibc? uClibc executables aren't as small as dietlibc in my experience -- like 17K vs 7K. 23:49:50 pikhq: And they have a lot of "why is that in there?" symbols. 23:49:56 wow 23:50:09 Vorpal: ? 23:50:18 read part of that link 23:50:32 Ah. 23:50:38 pikhq: Oh, and I'm not quite sure dietlibc does locales... but anyway. 23:51:50 elliott, ugh if it doesn't 23:52:18 Vorpal: Yeah, yeah, it's all experimental, let me figure things out first. 23:52:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:52:32 Vorpal: I just don't want to settle for the second-best libc. :p 23:52:47 Vorpal: (And I put a lot of effort into getting dietlibc to compile with pcc, let me tell you! I doubt uClibc will compile with non-gcc any time soon...) 23:52:55 elliott, well one lacking locales surely can't be the best :P 23:53:06 -!- augur has joined. 23:53:29 elliott, on MC? 23:53:41 Not this second, but I can be in two seconds; are you going on? 23:53:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:54:02 elliott, I just logged on 23:54:08 will be on for a few minutes at least 23:55:43 Coming on. 23:56:32 elliott: Okay, maybe a US English-only system would be tolerable. 23:56:45 elliott: Because dietlibc is just so insanely small. 23:58:37 pikhq: It might support locales, I don't know. I might be able to patch in locale support./ 23:58:47 Probably doesn't. 23:58:48 pikhq: But really I'm just not sure; uClibc definitely has wider support. 23:58:50 That would be code size. 23:59:28 elliott: Downside to trying to have uclibc and dietlibc both: you will need a seperate lib dir for each. 23:59:49 As they are entirely seperate ABIs.