2010-11-01: 00:00:09 * Sgeo digs up stuff from his past 00:00:10 http://i.imgur.com/S6pDQ.png 00:00:15 Apparently this is OfficeSuite 00:00:22 * Sgeo digs up stuff from his past 00:00:24 don't you do that all day? 00:00:41 You an probably use the first, third, fifth and so on megabytes, though. 00:00:47 s/an/can/ 00:01:19 At some point, I will feel nostalgic about #esoteric 00:01:22 Or maybe zeroth, second and fourth; depending on how you number those. 00:01:23 After #esoteric dies 00:01:55 Or IRC channels may be longer lived than other communities 00:01:59 That seems likely 00:02:03 But still 00:02:09 Will Freenode really be around forever? 00:02:33 fizzie: or you can use all of them as long as you account for the mirroring :) 00:02:56 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit). 00:03:06 olsner: Yes, well, the addresses, sure; but not the physical megabytes. 00:04:54 "On most newer computers starting with the IBM PS/2, the chipset has a FAST A20 option that can quickly enable the A20 line. To enable A20 this way, there is no need for delay loops or polling, just 3 simple instructions." 00:04:59 THAT SOUNDS NICE NO I/O OK THX 00:05:06 "However, this is not supported everywhere and there is no reliable way to tell if it will have some effect or not on a given system. Even worse, on some systems, it may actually do something else like blanking the screen, so it should be used only after the BIOS has reported that FAST A20 is available. Code for systems lacking FAST A20 support is also needed, so relying only on this method is discouraged." 00:05:09 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 00:05:13 "Another way is to use the BIOS." 00:05:15 yes that's better thank you 00:05:43 Please tell me that you're researching history 00:05:54 Actually, I have no idea what you're trying to do 00:06:17 writing a bootloader 00:06:45 writing a bootloader *is* researching history 00:07:20 it's actually something like an accelerated trip through all revisions of the x86 isa and bios api:s 00:08:22 That's only if you want to support more than just your own machine 00:08:39 I assume 00:09:38 most of the steps you need to do on any machine 00:10:22 cmp word [magic], word [MIRROR_MAGIC] 00:10:26 doesn't work, what a surprise! 00:10:43 So why "all revisions"? 00:11:04 Sgeo: because it starts off in 16-bit real mode 00:11:15 and you use the bios to get shit done 00:11:24 then you do the, cough, fun dance to get into protected mode 00:11:24 I never learned x86 stuff 00:11:27 then if you're on 64-bit 00:11:32 you do the fun dance to get into long mode from there 00:11:34 Or x64 stuff 00:11:38 *x86-64 00:11:50 Anything sinful about abbreviating it to x64? 00:11:53 yes 00:11:55 i'll stab you 00:11:58 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott. 00:12:01 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host). 00:12:01 -!- elliott has joined. 00:12:04 With your _? 00:12:22 yes 00:12:27 olsner: http://wiki.osdev.org/A20_Line#Testing_the_A20_line dear god this is long and ugly 00:12:29 i don't have that kind of space 00:12:32 gotta OPTIMISE 00:13:02 *OPTOMISE 00:13:30 olsner: maybe i'll just deal with the duplicated megabytes :D 00:13:33 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:13:59 You could do the A20 dance outside your bootloader. 00:14:10 fizzie: after I get into protected mode??? 00:14:18 Assuming reasonable-sized kernel, anyway. 00:14:18 that sounds... fun 00:14:43 also VICE does not build out of the box on NetBSD because of a *syntax error*. 00:14:51 Yes, I don't see why not; except that then you don't really have the BIOS helping you. 00:15:26 any of the A20 methods listed there (except for anything calling into bios) should work from protected mode afaict 00:16:37 for (d = hid_start_parse(report, 1 << hid_input, id) { 00:16:37 } 00:16:40 THIS IS NOT C, PEOPLE 00:16:50 catseye: i, uh, wow. 00:17:14 olsner: I'm enabling the A20 line with the BIOS. 00:17:17 All this low-level talk reminds me of this nice paper floating around on how to do really fast "software" routing tables with a clever (ab)use of the cache systems: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.35.45&rep=rep1&type=pdf 00:17:21 Because the alternative is talking to the keyboard and I have am oral objection to that. 00:17:28 *a moral 00:17:40 *An oral. 00:19:30 0x0F is "pure white on black", yeah? 00:19:35 in vgatextspeak 00:19:43 -!- Jack has joined. 00:19:43 that's how it appears here 00:19:53 I now have a snazzy error message: 00:19:58 hey 00:19:59 boot A20? 00:20:01 hello Jack 00:20:09 Jack: this channel is about esoteric programming languages 00:20:09 -!- Jack has changed nick to Guest20118. 00:20:16 -!- Guest20118 has changed nick to Jackoz. 00:20:27 is it an autoreply? 00:20:52 no 00:20:57 oh :) 00:21:06 we get tons of people here thinking it's about that *other* type of esoterica. 00:21:11 :) 00:21:17 Ok, btw I know about that mate 00:21:31 actually I'm developing an esoteric language 00:21:33 http://i.imgur.com/WjGPH.png 00:21:38 Worst. UI. Ever 00:21:43 Jackoz: cool 00:21:45 that's why I joined this channel, shortly I'll need some feedback :D 00:21:56 Suppose I want to move stuf from 200N 200E to 323S 370E 00:22:02 prepare the "your language sucks" cannons, men! 00:22:10 I put the old location in "Rotate Old Prop Around" 00:22:19 I put the new location in "Offset Values" 00:22:21 :( 00:22:35 Except for Height offset, which is the difference in heights 00:22:38 I wish I was joking 00:22:58 actually the only real problem is that it is stack based, but I feel it is not enough 00:23:08 Jackoz: we're actually nice! on occasion. 00:23:09 fizzie: Int 15/AX=2402h - SYSTEM - later PS/2s - GET A20 GATE STATUS 00:23:14 fizzie: See, I can just use the BIOS for everything! 00:23:21 but having a normal "variable declaration" language seemed too overkill 00:23:28 Jackoz: stack is nice! 00:23:34 I have to find something in the middle, so maybe I can get some inspiration here 00:23:39 "not enough" is always almost a bad impulse, keeping things simple and pure is what leads to a gem of a language 00:23:43 imo 00:23:44 I'm having an affair with a stack based language 00:23:46 but i'm interested, so go on 00:23:54 Jackoz: Sgeo is our friendly channel bot 00:24:28 channel bot write in Factor for great justice 00:24:52 ^^too coherent for a fungot-like bot 00:25:06 Hey, fungot doesn't detect on fungot- 00:25:07 Sgeo: using the odd syntax for one 00:25:20 -fungot- 00:25:21 Sgeo: toi ei oo fnord ja kanava fnord? l) 00:25:29 Jackoz: a bot with a tendency to call the other bots. 00:25:32 elliott: I'm trying to keep it fully functional with powerful but obscure operators, but this implies having to manipulate the stack a lot 00:25:40 elliott: "later PS/2s" -- surely you're not going to limit yourself on such! 00:25:44 stack manipulation is fun, but ok :) 00:25:47 fizzie: Oh yes I am. 00:25:51 Just to clarify, I'm not actually a bot 00:25:54 fizzie: *to such 00:26:00 Well, maybe a nostalgia-bot 00:26:04 Jackoz: he's also wired to say he's not a bot whenever his botness is mentioned :) 00:26:19 fizzie: They're technically "optional", but the amount that I care is zero. :P 00:26:26 Sgeo: do some goole searches for me! 00:26:30 *google 00:26:52 There's no way I'm actually failing a Turing-test, am I? 00:27:16 What we have learned here: Sgeo truly is indistinguishable from a simple computer program. 00:27:30 Or, y'know, [some less cynical conclusion about the way people react to other people when they have assumptions]. 00:27:42 Sgeo: The fungot-not-replying thing was probably that one occasional bug it has that I haven't managed to catch. 00:27:42 fizzie: i don't need that much range anyway. 00:27:45 elliott: just to give you an idea http://jacoposantoni.com/impossible/operators (but many operators aren't documented there yet) 00:27:57 testing. fungot-like. testing 00:27:57 Sgeo: yes, i'm just trying to understand syntax-case. so i'll be here tomorrow for a response on c.l.s 00:28:09 (And apparently 'e doesn't think it's worth fixing anyway.) 00:28:22 cmp al, 1 00:28:22 je protect 00:28:22 gotta be a simpler way of writing that 00:28:23 oh well 00:28:39 comp.lang.??? 00:28:40 scheme? 00:28:43 smalltalk? 00:28:46 Scheme. 00:29:01 syntax-case is a tricky Sceme macro thing. 00:29:03 Jackoz: just so you know, trash is usually called "drop" 00:29:10 Jackoz: and dupe dup 00:29:24 Jackoz: this is a good language 00:29:34 elliott: thanks, I'll take it into account :) 00:29:41 elliott: that's why I joined here 00:29:44 Jackoz: you should see some of the first esolangs people come up with :) 00:29:50 they can be truly awful 00:30:38 elliott, it's impolite to make someone laugh at food-time 00:30:41 elliott: I was thinking about having many stacks with a default behaviour that is usually good without any additional thought from the developer but I wasn't unable to come up with anything yet 00:30:43 I could be dead thanks to you 00:31:01 Sgeo: surely you're a bot now 00:31:10 Sgeo !search pr0n 00:31:20 boot sector is 168 bytes, that's over a *fifth* of the maximum! 00:31:28 this damn bot, it needs some fixes 00:31:39 In fact, it's basically a third. 00:31:57 Who said I have to give the results back to you? *ponders* I don't think you want the results 00:32:20 00:32:41 fizzie: You! Tell me why my segments go all strange after going into protected mode. 00:33:48 it's building openssh 00:33:52 ... 00:33:54 that's why! 00:34:29 OH! 00:34:41 Because video memory is 0xB8000 on the other side of the divide, not 0xB800. 00:34:43 Duh. 00:35:16 Now it works in qemu but not bochs -- which is *never* a good sign. 00:37:15 ...how does that happen? 00:38:48 Because bochs is anal and slow and qemu is lax and fast. 00:39:25 00134663903e[CPU0 ] interrupt(): gate descriptor is not valid sys seg (vector=0x0d) 00:39:25 00134663903e[CPU0 ] interrupt(): gate descriptor is not valid sys seg (vector=0x08) 00:39:37 00134663903e[CPU0 ] interrupt(): gate descriptor is not valid sys seg (vector=0x08) 00:39:39 whoops 00:39:45 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:39:48 so lol something is up. 00:40:13 something's causing an interrupt, and you probably haven't set up an interrupt descriptor yet 00:40:29 olsner: ah. 00:40:32 bochs is a bitch, then 00:41:10 olsner: wrong! 00:41:13 olsner: well 00:41:19 I set up idtr using yours (dw 0 dd 0) 00:41:26 olsner: is it triggering despite that or something? 00:41:28 and i have to set up more? 00:41:30 if so WOOOOOO. 00:41:57 you don't have to set up more as long as you have interrupts disabled and don't do anything wrong :) 00:42:10 olsner: clearly I do, because it happens anyway :) 00:42:15 lidt [idtr] 00:42:20 align 4 00:42:21 idtr:dw 0 00:42:21 dd 0 00:42:28 It occurs to me that I have a record of my Opera usage 00:42:35 elliott: you just have to stop doing something wrong that causes the interrupts 00:42:42 So if I'm ever tempted to try Opera again, say in a few years... 00:43:03 elliott: did you disable interrupts? 00:43:17 olsner: probably not! 00:43:34 olsner: i should figure out how! 00:43:54 I shouuld learn how this stuff works 00:43:54 olsner: wait yes i did 00:43:56 CLI, isn't it? 00:43:59 cli 00:43:59 lidt [idtr] 00:44:00 That looks like a pretty small IDT. 00:44:02 lgdt [gdtr] 00:44:04 Especially if I want to build a computer at some point 00:44:05 fizzie: blame olsner 00:44:22 Sgeo: all of this is utterly irrelevant to the trivial "stick a few components together in a case". 00:44:32 the latter is like lego. 00:44:32 I meant in virtual worlds 00:44:46 I know how to stick components in the real world together 00:44:47 Sgeo: !google typical 00:45:02 The first few (19) entries of the idt can be invoked by processor-generated exceptions. 00:45:05 ..? 00:45:12 Oh 00:45:25 You're not giving me advice, you're saying that I'm being typical me 00:45:33 vector=0x0d there is a general protection fault. 00:45:35 You are typically typical you 00:45:37 So what? 00:45:43 fizzie: Well that's not good. 00:45:47 And vector=0x08 is a double fault. 00:45:51 other_side: 00:45:52 mov word [0xB8000+ebx+2], 0x0F21 00:45:52 x:hlt 00:45:52 jmp x 00:45:57 What's so protection-faulty about that? 00:47:17 Have you reloaded your ds after the jump to protected mode? If ds was zero before, I would assume it still has that 64k limit. But really, I haven't done this before: ask oelsner. 00:47:28 ølsner 00:47:41 Oerrrrsleer. 00:47:45 But fizzie is right! 00:47:50 push DATA_SEGMENT pop ds works just fine. 00:48:46 Ommina sleep now, though; good luck with protecting your modes. 00:49:09 Hey, look! 00:49:14 fizzie: catseye: olsner: BOOTLOADER COMPLETE 00:49:15 (sort of) 00:49:19 And it's 200 bytes exactly. 00:49:19 elliott: sweet 00:49:32 That includes the "jmp KERNEL_SEGMENT:0" at the very end that I'm not sure will work entirely properly here. 00:49:41 olsner: I should probably reset all the registers like you do. 00:50:23 But still, 200 bytes to read the kernel from a floppy disk, giving diagnostics along the way, enable the A20 line (giving "boot? A20" if it doesn't work), jump into protected mode and jump to my kernel. 00:50:24 Not bad. 00:50:31 brb 00:50:32 elliott: yes, having all of them point to a proper 32-bit data segment is useful 00:53:17 that's frightening 00:58:29 -!- FireFly|n900 has joined. 00:58:35 Hi 00:59:18 Golf a BF infinite loop code fragment that can be inserted in any valid brainfuck program 00:59:33 Would +[]+[] be the shortest possible? 01:01:01 '[]+[]'? 01:01:25 Hm 01:01:36 I suppose that works 01:02:34 -!- FIQ has joined. 01:04:23 * Sgeo wonders if he can find his Haskell BF interpreter 01:05:33 FireFly|n900: Define the Brainfuck. 01:07:51 in any case you should be able to wrote a BF interpreted in any language in just a couple of minutes 01:08:08 *interpreter 01:08:17 Try writing one in Malbolge. 01:08:26 except Malbolge :) 01:08:31 (if you can, you win all the Internet points) 01:08:34 I was excluding esoteric languages actually 01:08:38 brb write one in MSL :D 01:08:46 There's non-esoteric sub-Turing languages. 01:09:04 * Sgeo was about to o.O, but SQL would be one, right? 01:09:19 Oh, and "non-programming" languages like HTML 01:09:20 SQL is indeed one. 01:09:21 it depends on which extensions of SQL are available 01:09:30 HTML is not a programming language 01:09:33 Sgeo: HTML is still a language, though. 01:09:34 it's a markup language 01:09:43 Yup, for Hyper Text. 01:10:06 English would count as TC, right? 01:10:16 why not? 01:10:26 Are there any non-TC natural languages/ 01:10:42 you can easily define a corrispondence between a turing complete language and the english language, providing the right semantics 01:11:15 Also, I don't think it would be easy to write BF interpretter in any esolang I have designed (I actually have more than that Pointer-B mess...) 01:11:43 Is Ancient Egyptian TC? 01:12:20 Sgeo: are you assuming the semantics as they intended it? 01:12:57 in any case Egyptians didn't have any 0 concept 01:13:04 Sgeo: I think we can safely say "yes" to that 01:13:29 so 01:13:41 I'm not sure that hieroglyps are a TC language 01:13:51 at least not using their original semantics 01:14:10 Jackoz: Hieroglyphs were an orthography for a language. 01:14:15 Jackoz: I would be *extremely* surprised if they did not have a concept for "nothing" 01:14:33 actually make that *****extremely***** 01:14:38 * Sgeo was thinking "off", but just realized how riduculous that was 01:14:38 pikhq: it's much more than that 01:14:50 riduuuuuuuculous 01:14:54 01:15:06 pikhq: hieroglyps are far more esoteric as normal languages since they were used either to express words eithers as just word fragments 01:15:28 My English parser broke. 01:16:09 sorry, english is not my mother language and I'm watching a movie so my attention is partially here 01:16:12 My English lexer *also* broke. 01:16:31 And my Japanese lexer sees funny squiggles. 01:16:32 in any case you shouldn't have reached parsing phase, you should have stopped before. 01:16:57 Jackoz: English speakers have highly accepting lexers. 01:17:55 * Sgeo now ponders where the term "lexing" came from 01:17:55 catseye: they had the concept of zero intended as perfection or completion but it wasn't, strictly talking, a numeral concept 01:18:42 Jackoz: You don't need numerals to build a Turing Machine, though. 01:19:04 catseye: no, but I think you need the concept of zero intended as zero :) 01:19:23 Might the concept of words be sufficient? 01:19:37 this is something somewhat trivial for us, we should ask an ancient Egyptian 01:20:01 Jackoz: No, you don't even need that. 01:20:07 I'll just take Apophis and hand him over to the Tok'ra 01:20:14 Then we can ask his host! 01:20:15 I also wonder if "I have no money" in Ancient Egyptian was regarded as a state of perfection or completion :) 01:20:44 [spoiler] but whatever 01:20:46 Jackoz: One could just as well have a Turing machine with an alphabet consisting of 日 and 本 instead of 0 and 1. 01:20:58 Doesn't even matter what the symbols *mean*. 01:23:00 that's undoubtely true, but we are talking about using a language to see if it is TC 01:23:30 actually you can build a TC language with any chosen alphabet, from that point of view every language is TC 01:24:07 the problem in that case is that you should be able to build a partial function that describes the behaviour of the turing machine by using their already existing semantics 01:25:01 without choosing an arbitrary one, just to prove its Turing completeness 01:26:33 otherwise you are just proving that a language, which shares its alphabet with hieroglyps, is TC 01:26:43 You only need a small number of verbs and nouns and adjectived to describe a Turing machine: left, right, change, check, etc. I would guess there has never been a human language in existence that has lacked these concepts, and words for them. 01:26:59 *adjectives 01:28:04 that's why Turing completeness is a concept quite useful from a theoretical point of view, but really overused all around 01:28:15 * olsner stops fiddling with protected mode and goes to bed 01:28:43 should extend my code so it can go into long mode too 01:29:32 languages that are not TC simply aren't languages used to express computations. So the fact that SQL is not TC doesn't astonish me :) 01:30:33 by the way this channel should be called #pedantic, you are really all ready to push newcomers in a corner .. 01:30:40 yay, done 01:30:55 $bf(++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.) -> HelloWorld! 01:30:56 :D 01:33:26 -!- iamcal has joined. 01:33:26 -!- cal153 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:34:15 back 01:34:23 that's frightening 01:34:26 why? the size of the bootloader? 01:34:40 There's non-esoteric sub-Turing languages. 01:34:41 e.g. C 01:34:44 at least without libc 01:34:57 by the way this channel should be called #pedantic, you are really all ready to push newcomers in a corner .. 01:35:13 some of us -- cough pikhq -- have not learned that you're meant to start being nice once the newbie demonstrates a modicum of intelligence :) 01:36:47 just kidding pikhq let's be friends. 01:36:49 or something 01:37:00 woo one of the spontaneous channel lulls 01:37:10 Jackoz: I think it's meaningless to talk about natural languages being TC 01:37:15 they're description languages 01:37:33 "Is XML TC?" is a meaningless question, but XML-Prog-Lang-2000 can perfectly well be TC with its syntax in XML 01:37:46 "Are S-Expressions TC?" is also meaningless, but Lisp is certainly Turing complete. 01:38:01 Similarly, you could define a language out of valid English sentences, and it could be Turing complete. 01:38:10 "Give me N gram(s) of sugar." could add N to the accumulator, etc. 01:38:31 elliott: re, that was my point. I think that TC has its coolness but it is somewhat not so much significative 01:38:48 it is just the best effort we've been able to do in the field of computational theory 01:39:26 just because you can't apply the concept of turing-completeness to some things doesn't mean it's meaningless :) 01:39:33 like saying colours aren't an ideal concept, because you can't ask what the colour of 3 is 01:40:17 I don't say it is meaningless, I say that every language used to compute something is 99.9% TC 01:40:21 elliott: I would disagree. There is a subset of English that is Turing-complete, even with the natural semantics of the sentences (no contrived meaning for what N grams of sugar is, e.g.) 01:40:39 catseye: well sure, but it's not English that's TC 01:40:43 just like the s-expression 01:40:46 (define (brainfuck x) ...) 01:40:48 doesn't prove S-expressions TC 01:40:52 it proves Scheme TC 01:40:56 English is more than S-expressions, though. 01:41:00 Sentences have meanings. 01:41:02 catseye: what that shows is that English Interpreter Deluxe is TC. 01:41:05 catseye: well, sure 01:41:08 but they're descriptive meanings 01:41:11 they describe objects 01:41:16 you could describe a turing machine 01:41:20 etc. 01:41:29 but you can't actually describe something that takes a Turing machine to compute 01:41:37 (although you can describe a Turing machine that computes a certain thing) 01:41:59 elliott: You are hopelessly confused on this point. 01:42:19 catseye: That's an... interesting way to say "we disagree". 01:42:30 just to avoid a fight, can I ask a side question? 01:42:51 catseye the one of Cat's Eye Technologies? 01:42:56 Yes. 01:43:09 cool, my maximum respect to you :) 01:43:21 since I remember your website from many years ago 01:43:28 Don't believe the hype! catseye is actually a slimy, slithery snake of EVIL and LIES. 01:43:42 elliott: If I had said "words are TC", our analogy with S-exps would make sense. But I said "English", not "words". 01:43:51 *you 01:43:51 yeah, then he tried to push me in a corner together with the others :( 01:43:53 *your 01:44:12 catseye: And I believe that English is a language describing (and is thus executable) objects in a sub-TC way. 01:44:15 Well. 01:44:25 "The contents of the tape after executing the Brainfuck program '...'." 01:44:29 I wonder why elitistic nerds are also misanthropic 01:44:35 catseye: You may be right! 01:44:39 Jackoz: it's IRC, get over it :P 01:44:51 Jackoz: I saw no pushing into corners, just nitpicking and discussion 01:44:58 and when the conversation is this academic, nitpicking is important 01:45:10 My English parser broke. 01:45:21 yes, some years are passed from my last IRC visit :) 01:45:23 this is Sgeo's wonderfully polite way of saying "please restate what you last said, I couldn't understand it" 01:45:36 ironic, i'm usually the asshole here 01:45:52 it's hard to speak about academic topics when english is not your mother language 01:45:56 Jackoz: I'm sorry if it seemed like I was pushing you into a corner; certainly not my intent, I was just arguing my position. 01:45:58 I'm really trying to do my best :) 01:46:02 Jackoz: i swear we're nice and cuddly 01:46:20 nah, I'm just joking. Actually I was just trying to make you feel a little bit guilty about something 01:46:57 * Sgeo didn't mean to be an asshole 01:46:58 Jackoz: YEAH WELL I HATE YOU TOO 01:47:07 now back to my bootloader -- the only true friend i have 01:47:12 my main concern 01:47:13 is to find 01:47:14 a way 01:47:19 to talk over multiple lines? 01:47:21 congrats :) 01:47:30 to change my stack language in something different 01:47:38 "in something different"? 01:47:42 yeah, sorry, as I stated I'm not used anymore to IRC :) 01:47:44 * elliott legitimately doesn't understand 01:47:49 oh, i do it too 01:47:53 i'm just being silly 01:48:02 good heuristic: lines in #esoteric are not serious 99% of the time 01:48:23 I mean that just having a stack needs too many extra operations 01:48:51 so I thought that here some dark-uber-mega-nerd-misantrophic-guy 01:48:55 could give me a better idea 01:50:00 well it's a bit of a vague question :) 01:50:11 yes, I can get it 01:50:13 my actual idea 01:50:29 was to avoid variable declaration 01:50:51 Jackoz: functional? 01:50:55 but *guessing* having many stacks that are used by convention 01:50:55 if every function has a fixed number of arguments 01:50:58 yes, it is 01:51:02 then the program is just f g x y h x y z 01:51:07 if f has three arguments 01:51:12 and g and h have two 01:51:16 then that's f(g(x,y),h(x,y),z) 01:51:17 etc. 01:51:29 ok, now assume that many builtin instructions 01:51:37 can work on different parameters according to the stack 01:51:46 (either number of parameters, either types) 01:51:59 for example .> 01:52:09 computes the floor function if it finds a float onto the stack 01:52:18 while it works like OCaml iter (or each) 01:52:27 if it finds a collection and a lambda 01:52:27 oh god this language looks awesome 01:52:45 so that 01:52:54 2.2 .> will leave 2.0 onto the stack 01:52:55 while 01:53:05 {1,2,3,4}[^].> will print 1 2 3 4 01:53:28 Jackoz: right 01:53:35 Jackoz: so, function overloading except on a stack basically. 01:53:41 yes 01:53:49 and? :) 01:53:52 this can be good but a little bit weak in certain situations 01:53:54 just not sure what your question is 01:53:54 ok 01:54:07 my question was about not using a stack but something different :) 01:54:17 maybe multiple stacks that are filled accordingly to the types? 01:54:26 so each lambda goes on the lambda stack? 01:54:27 etc.? 01:54:28 I really don't know, I just thought that the stack was not enough 01:54:37 something like that 01:54:46 actually there is a lambda stack, but it is used to track execution 01:54:56 right, "return stack". 01:55:09 yes, the good old activation record 01:55:14 Jackoz: general advice - keep it simple. your language looks interesting as it is 01:55:16 of CPUs 01:55:24 ok, it's not *hugely* esoteric, but it's definitely more esoteric than most languages 01:55:45 so your personal advice is to keep it this way? 01:55:57 personally, yes; but if you hit on something interesting, don't let me stop you :) 01:55:59 Jackoz: maybe a queue! 01:56:01 that would be ... odd 01:56:06 rotfl 01:56:26 that would be crazy 01:56:42 I could implement a fuzzy rule 01:56:55 that tries to execute the right implementation of the operator 01:56:58 coppro: you want nothing more than to read my bootloader, right? 01:57:01 according to what it actually finds on the stack 01:57:12 Jackoz: well that's not fuzzy that's just function overloading isn't it? :) 01:57:19 not at all 01:57:47 then I was thinking about 01:57:54 elliott: ob 01:57:57 not having to pick values from the stack, or rotate them 01:58:19 no, this language must have only one stack 01:58:22 like something that is able to guess the correct operation not caring about order of parameters 01:58:24 coppro: http://sprunge.us/UfHO boot.s! 01:58:28 it should have an 'evaluation stack' 01:58:32 Jackoz: coppro is now in charge of your language :) 01:58:38 :D 01:58:46 err, sorry 01:58:47 two stacks 01:58:53 one for values/functions, one for evaluations 01:58:56 don't want to be invasive, just to get some ideas 01:58:56 coppro: it already does 01:59:02 Jackoz: invasive? howso? 01:59:14 just by submerging you with questions 01:59:28 if we get tired/annoyed we'll just not answer 01:59:33 nothing could ever match Sgeo's questioning power 01:59:38 that too 01:59:44 and we still answer him 01:59:47 mostly because he doesn't shut up if we don't 01:59:48 very little matches this channel's noise:signal ration 02:00:09 you just need a Sgeo-pass filter 02:02:11 Jackoz: I need to read logs and stop commenting things I don't understand in the slightest 02:02:30 coppro: don't worry, I like your good intents 02:02:46 which could be a good way to test the expressiveness of the language? 02:03:08 trying to implement things as project euler challenges? 02:03:20 Jackoz: it's esoteric, it's not meant to be expressive! well ok that's not true but still 02:03:24 Jackoz: implement a brainfuck interpreter 02:03:25 or Underload 02:03:36 I was already trying it 02:03:44 but the use of the stack was really tough :) 02:03:45 :) 02:03:52 that's why I came here 02:03:58 hmm 02:04:04 it would be easier to help with a specification 02:04:16 {:}#y{>}#z{'>:[:1+:],'<:[:1-:],'+:[%;3$>1+3$:<%%],'-:[%;3$>1-3&:<%%],'.:[2$2$>^^]}#x(:16:)0 0"+[>,]<-[+.<-]";0 0%[;'[= [,:1+:][']= [@y:>>% %4$% %<<,<<][1+]??]??]e@y^^ [@x:>>!]e 02:04:23 this is how much far I gone 02:04:25 but now I realize that what I was thinking is not what you are thinking 02:04:30 coppro: there's a function reference :P 02:04:40 that function reference is really old :( 02:04:43 but now I have an excellent idea for a language 02:05:17 coppro: don't steal my ideas! :) 02:05:53 based on your small code samples, it's RPN, right? 02:06:01 no shit :P 02:06:14 yes, it is 02:06:52 yeah; I want a bracketless functional PN language 02:07:00 coppro: I already mentioned that... 02:07:04 coppro: And REBOL already did that. 02:07:09 coppro: And Logo already did that. 02:07:14 elliott: I know you mentioned it 02:07:15 ok, this could give a better view: http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/9518/operators.png 02:07:29 but many of these instructions can work with different parameters too 02:07:40 and REBOL has brackets 02:07:47 Jackoz: Is that an excel spreadsheet? 02:07:51 coppro: yes, but it doesn't need them 02:07:57 coppro: pure functions can be just 02:08:01 f g x y z h a b c 02:08:03 unfortunately yes 02:08:10 coppro: and logo has no brackets... well, it has [], but that's just lambda 02:08:12 after trying to keep consistency directly in source code 02:08:12 so does logo 02:08:21 coppro: so? you could easily get rid of lambda 02:08:24 have it be 02:08:26 lambda (list) 02:08:26 I had to find a simpler way, since many things were subjected to change 02:08:31 *(list) (list) 02:08:31 then you'd do 02:08:38 elliott: list 02:08:40 lambda cons :a cons :b nil 02:08:45 for (lambda (a b) 02:08:46 then uh 02:08:51 that would require brackets for any sane implementation 02:09:00 lambda cons :a cons :b nil cons :display cons :a nil 02:09:01 would be 02:09:03 Aren't stack languages bracketless RPN? 02:09:08 (lambda (a b) (display a)) 02:09:12 coppro: i meant list as in a list object 02:09:13 not the list function 02:09:18 Sgeo: yes, which is considerably easier than bracketless PN 02:09:21 lambda add #1 #2 02:09:43 coppro: no it's not 02:09:44 Jackoz: what's the real issue? 02:09:51 RPN languages with lambda have [] too 02:09:53 exact same problem 02:09:55 "problem" 02:09:58 Oh 02:10:02 Durh 02:10:06 coppro: I tried to explain it in my words but with no success :/ 02:10:07 elliott: lies. I will show you the evility of my language 02:10:12 Jackoz: :/ 02:10:47 I was wondering if something what is not just a stack but that doesn't work by variable declarations too exists 02:10:53 what = that 02:11:12 Jackoz: here is what i think you want to say 02:11:20 "Are there languages which are neither concatenative or imperative?" 02:11:24 perhaps? 02:11:26 I mean that variable declaration is verbose 02:11:36 Jackoz: lambda calculus :) 02:11:57 while using just a stack is verbose too, since you then need to manipulate it very often inside the code 02:12:15 coppro: sally has no brackets. no proper lambdas, either, but it would be a straightforward addition 02:12:18 so I would like to have a computational model which works without having to do explicitly any of two 02:12:36 maybe it simply doesn't exist 02:14:12 Jackoz: of course it does 02:14:15 Jackoz: see the lambda calculus 02:15:02 the real problem about λ-calculus is that it needs a more complex VM underlying it 02:15:38 mmh I'll take a look, but I remember from university that it needs to care about bound variables, free variables and so on 02:15:50 and having to declare parameters will bring back verbosity 02:16:33 -!- FIQ has quit (Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -). 02:16:43 (by the way I'm just guessing, this is the real first approach to an esoteric languages) 02:16:51 I have found something too obscure for Fark1 02:16:52 http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=5726773 02:16:56 my lexer broke too 02:17:17 the real problem about λ-calculus is that it needs a more complex VM underlying it 02:17:21 only on imperative hardware 02:17:29 lambda-calculus on the Reduceron would be a sinch 02:17:41 sinch 02:17:42 sin 02:17:54 * Sgeo channels elliott 02:18:03 I love the relativistic way you approach things 02:18:20 in any case I'm not writing this language in an imperative language 02:18:25 Jackoz: well if all we cared about was intel amd x86 windows linux... we'd be very boring. :) 02:18:29 Jackoz: ocaml is imperative 02:18:31 it's just functional, too 02:18:40 but ocaml functions can have any side effects they want 02:18:43 yes, it's not pure functional 02:18:50 but you can use it as a pure functional 02:18:55 if you want 02:18:56 "impure functional" is a rather worthless concept academically :) 02:19:02 perl counts as impure functional 02:19:04 it has lambdas 02:19:33 I actually skipped the course about functional languages years ago 02:19:44 just because I was too young to feel their coolness 02:20:23 so I admit my ignorance 02:20:35 but I assert that OCaml is purer than perl from that point of view :) 02:20:52 purER, sure, but just try and define the scale of purity mathematically >:) 02:21:18 (purer is not correct in english?) 02:21:24 Jackoz: it's correct 02:21:26 i was emphasising it 02:21:31 i.e. "pur*er*, but not pure" 02:21:41 "MORE pure" is equivalent emphasis 02:21:53 :) 02:21:55 catseye: aiee, you didn't tell me -- you can't read a whole floppy with one int 13h! 02:22:07 catseye: you'd have to go through the heads and cylinders and stuff 02:22:07 where are you from? (just to chitchat, but I have to ask it after some lines) 02:22:21 catseye: i can only read 31 kilobytes as-is! 02:22:26 Jackoz: england 02:22:27 elliott: that's because i didn't know that! 02:22:39 Which is purer, OCaml or Factor? 02:22:46 I guess it depends on what is meant by pure 02:22:49 catseye: http://www.ctyme.com/intr/rb-0607.htm 02:22:53 catseye: "CL = sector number 1-63 (bits 0-5)" 02:23:03 Purely concatenative, in which Factor is obviously closer, or purely functional 02:23:06 catseye: 63 * 512 bytes = 31.5 k 02:23:07 Which, um 02:23:09 *31.5k 02:23:17 Sgeo: the point is that you can't define a degree of pureness (or at least I think that was elliott's point 02:23:17 elliott: so read a bunch of chunks in a loop 02:23:17 catseye: so yeah, urgh! 02:23:24 catseye: oh i will once the kernel is big enough :D 02:23:25 Jackoz: it was 02:23:38 you can assert it empirically 02:23:39 catseye: other things i'll do then: do the A20 line properly, rather than relying on the BIOS... 02:23:48 catseye: say, how hard is it to talk to the floppy without the bios, any ideas? 02:25:06 elliott: since you seem fond of this topic, which languages are pure functional but with performance comparable to OCaml? just for curiosity 02:25:29 (this means compiled into native and strongly type inferred) 02:25:31 Jackoz: I, uh, Haskell! If you write your code in a way that GHC serendipitously happens to like... 02:25:31 elliott: i doubt you actually want to talk to a *floppy*, but... i don't think it's *super* hard, just messy 02:25:53 catseye: mm. wait, surely befos reads from the floppy? 02:25:58 via ide or something i guess though 02:26:00 elliott: using bios, yes 02:26:06 catseye: oh, right, you never cli 02:27:19 elliott: I'm scared that the lack of imperative features can make simple things really complex sometimes 02:27:41 Jackoz: if you code inside the IO monad in haskell, then it's "just" like an imperative language 02:27:58 elliott: wait, this should make it impure too 02:28:06 Jackoz: nope 02:28:40 Jackoz: I'd try to explain, but to *really* explain why it doesn't make the language impure in any way requires a dumbed-down version of a category theory concept and I'm not in the mood for that :) 02:28:42 -!- p_q has joined. 02:29:10 Jackoz: for any X you can find a tutorial explaining how monads are actually just like X :) 02:29:19 Even burritos (http://blog.plover.com/prog/burritos.html) 02:29:32 elliott: maybe I won't even understand you 02:29:54 Jackoz: monads are actually really simple -- it's explaining them that's the hard thing 02:30:01 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:30:15 Jackoz: the best policy for a beginning haskeller is just to trust that the IO monad works :) 02:30:37 elliott: faith is not something I'm used to rely upon :) 02:31:05 Jackoz: when you wrote your first program, did you ask how on earth "print foo" put little dots representing foo on the screen, or did you just go "ok, that says 'foo'"? :) 02:31:26 it *is* possible to fully understand monads before using them -- but impractical, and pointlessly difficult 02:31:30 elliott: I actually did, but I was unable to answer my self :( 02:31:49 elliott: this means that after OCaml I'll try Haskell, since functional programming really opened my mind 02:32:29 Jackoz: It is a good idea. 02:32:31 elliott: just a last question.. does Erlang worth trying? 02:32:59 Jackoz: opinions are divided :) 02:33:03 it has interesting things. 02:33:11 i don't want to be the one to make that decision for you :) 02:34:07 elliott: for your answering availability you just gained an alpha release of my language as soon as it's ready, now feel happy.. 02:34:19 Jackoz: I can barely contain my excitement. 02:34:22 (sarcasm, but ok :P) 02:34:31 elliott: that is a good start 02:34:35 Jackoz: you know what's cool? my OS doesn't boot! 02:34:44 elliott: linux? 02:34:50 Jackoz: no, literally, MY os :) 02:35:07 because writing an os is the best thing anyone can ever do apart from .... 02:35:08 i don't know 02:35:12 * Sgeo is fully willing to attempt to describe why the IO monad is not impure 02:35:13 resurrecting the dinosaurs 02:35:20 elliott: writing a programming language is just second to that 02:35:21 But elliott will yell at me 02:35:25 Jackoz: please don't take up Sgeo on his offer; he is an excellent confuser :) 02:35:30 (from my point of view) 02:36:10 But it's so SIMPLE 02:36:14 Kind of 02:36:19 is it a bootloader problem or a OS problem? 02:36:25 * Sgeo feels like a burrito tutorial author 02:36:29 just because you were talking about bootloaders so far 02:37:40 Jackoz: bootloader, i think 02:37:50 either my floppy assembly script isn't working, or my bootloader isn't actually jumping to the kernel 02:38:01 ^@^@^@^@^@Uª^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@ 02:38:04 suspicious lack of my kernel there 02:38:26 * Sgeo just wants to blurt out what's on his mind 02:38:37 Sgeo: /msg me with it 02:38:38 i'm eager to hear it 02:38:48 * elliott prepares himself 02:39:39 Just making sure I don't embarrass myself by using an example function that doesn't actually exist 02:39:50 just do it in /msg 02:40:02 dd: `kernel/kernel': cannot skip to specified offset 02:40:04 that would explain it! 02:40:31 oh, it needs to be seek= 02:40:32 that would explain it 02:40:34 skip= is for input 02:40:59 not that that works, either :D 02:41:17 @^@^@^@^@UªEVERYBODY PARTY!ôéêÿÿÿ^@^@^@ 02:41:20 ok it is copying ther 02:41:21 *there 02:44:28 My explanation appears to have the elliott seal of approval? 02:45:30 MAYBE 02:47:59 Things that might seem impure, such as getChar function, don't actually do what they say. Instead, they return a description. getChar always returns the same description of the action of getting a character. You piece together descriptions to make a bigger description. Whatever main describes is what's done 02:54:09 catseye: gah! my bootloader isn't loading correctly! 02:54:17 * Gregor clicks "Popular amongst people in their twenties" on AppBrain. 02:54:23 Damn it. People in their twenties are retards. 02:54:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:54:48 -!- augur has joined. 02:55:58 elliott: in the source of developing software, it is common that errors, or "bugs", are introduced. one of the jobs of the software developer is to locate and fix these bugs, a process called "debugging". 02:56:24 catseye: no it's clearly the bioses fault 02:56:27 evidence: fuck the bios 02:56:31 how can you disagree? 02:56:35 now catseye -- fix my bios 02:56:40 * Sgeo is not a technophile 02:57:05 * Sgeo is also not funny 02:57:29 * catseye never knows what Sgeo is talking about half the time 02:58:14 -!- Behold has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:59:19 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:59:31 but I *set* GTK_CFLAGS, you stupid configure script! don't tell me it's not set! 03:00:54 Okay, the read is failing; even if the floppy is random, I just display zeroes. 03:03:24 Aren't you using a VM? 03:03:31 ...yes... 03:04:08 Oh. Maybe I should ask what read is failing? Is it a read your code is doing, or is the VM actually simulating faulty hardware now? 03:05:20 foremr 03:05:21 *former 03:05:52 * Sgeo ponders jEdit 03:07:12 ...okay, this is just inexplicable 03:07:18 I'm following the interrupt spec perfectly. 03:07:29 It's not erroring out. 03:08:35 ok so apparently it was not smart enough to look for pkg-config *on my search path*, it had to be told where it was 03:09:08 oh! and netbsd world built. 03:09:49 catseye: including kernel? 03:11:00 yes, but i may have to build it again; i need t check somehtin 03:11:09 catseye: because if so DEBIAN YAY :p 03:11:37 no its good 03:11:52 catseye: DO YOU TOTALLY REMEMBER THE SSH COMMAND (nothing is more important) 03:13:08 it started with ssh 03:13:46 catseye: ssh -L R 9292:localhost:22 cpressey@91.104.241.33 03:13:47 i believe emulating linux 2.6 will require linux 2.6 shared libs; such things are not so convenient as to be in pkgsrc already 03:13:51 i think that's it 03:13:53 no, it won't 03:13:55 catseye: it's in a _chroot_ 03:14:00 the chroot contains _all the linux libraries_ including glibc 03:14:08 when you chroot, it looks for /lib/libc or whatever, the /bin/sh 03:14:12 which is of course *inside the chroot* 03:14:17 ok 03:15:18 well, need to reboot to test new kernel 03:15:23 hahaha good luck 03:15:41 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 03:15:44 ...... 03:16:09 Sgeo: ...what? 03:16:54 -!- Sgeo|jEdit has joined. 03:16:58 ... 03:17:54 -!- Sgeo|jEdit has left (?). 03:17:54 -!- Sgeo|jEdit has joined. 03:18:18 -!- Quadlex has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 03:18:23 * Sgeo is now accidentally spamming comex 03:18:58 There we go 03:19:42 For what it's worth, I hate this client 03:20:13 (What? Sgeo have taste?) 03:22:00 -!- Sgeo|jEdit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:29:07 -!- catseye has joined. 03:30:11 that was interesting 03:30:23 it claims to not have any file system modules compiled into the kernel 03:30:36 thus could could not mount the, uh, filesystem 03:31:08 also, the new kernel makes my speakers go "WEEP!" during boot now 03:31:33 custom kernel time! 03:32:20 -!- augur has joined. 03:32:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:33:28 oh the silly 03:33:40 all fs support is built as modules by default 03:33:42 ALL 03:34:03 -!- Quadlex has joined. 03:37:39 catseye: don't you embed your fs in the kernel? SHEESH 03:38:00 * Sgeo ponders the limitations of any editor not written in Factor attempting to do syntax hilighting on Factor code 03:39:10 Sgeo: just freakin' use FUEL 03:39:21 not even jedit's author, uses it any more 03:39:25 and that's the same as factor's author! 03:39:34 he uses fuel like everyone else 03:40:01 How well does emacs really run on Windows/ 03:40:19 perfectly. 03:42:35 Does the editor.emacs thingy know where to look on Windows? 03:42:48 "PAL emulation" in VICE should be called "CRT emulation" -- as a North American I feel discriminated against by this 03:43:29 catseye: it, presumably, only emulates the characteristics of a PAL C64 on a PAL TV 03:43:37 Sgeo: you have to set it, just like on unix 03:43:40 it makes it look like a tv! 03:43:57 catseye: it's lovely :P 03:44:05 OK FUCK YOU BIOS 03:44:12 IM GONNA FUCK UP YOUR SHIT AND READ THE FUCKING KERNEL WHETHER YOU WANT ME TO OR NOT 03:45:42 even in ntsc mode! which they seem to have improved slightly in this version 03:46:01 catseye: why would you want to use ntsc mode 03:46:07 pal representin' 03:47:09 ...............................for nostalgia! 03:47:36 i tried Factor once and it defeated me 03:47:38 catseye: but it looks exactly the same, more or less :P 03:48:11 i tried Emacs like a dozen times an it always defeated me too 03:48:31 "dw 0xAA55 03:48:31 For some reason the signature has to be written this way round!" 03:48:36 what is it with morons writing tutorials? 03:48:53 catseye, hmm? 03:49:51 ok so i'm gonna check out this ophis thing 03:50:04 catseye: the manual is pretty good 03:50:15 catseye: http://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/ophis/manual/book1.html 03:50:29 NUTS TO MANUALS 03:50:42 catseye: i don't mean read it :P 03:50:44 i just mean reference it 03:51:31 "This tutorial is to show you how to load sectors from a floppy disk. Variations will be needed to get this code to work on most other disks." 03:51:32 there 03:53:30 disks of varying floppiness 03:54:02 ok so ophis can assemble my existing code RIGHT 03:55:13 elliott: Be nice? What's that? 03:55:23 well, at least one file! 03:55:23 lawl 03:55:58 it just doesn't work! aaargh 03:56:03 pikhq: WANNA DEBUG MY BOOTLOADER? 03:56:44 Maybe I should write a bootloader at some point 03:57:03 *everyone laughs at the thought of Sgeo doing something like that* 03:59:03 ok ophis is decent. i hope he's improved label arith. and being able to produce a symbol map would be a nice feature. but, i can hack on it myself if i like 04:00:10 Sgeo: it's not difficult. really. 04:00:25 elliott certainly seems to be having trouble 04:00:42 elliott is trying to make elephants dance in his bootloader. 04:00:53 catseye: actually, my problem right now is loading sectors from the floppy 04:01:00 catseye: i can enable the a20 line, i can go into protected mode, everything 04:01:03 catseye: i just can't load the kernel 04:01:14 you load the kernel *before* the otehr stuff, right? 04:01:23 catseye: yes. well, i print "boo" first. 04:01:30 also: reset the disk. but you're meant to do that 04:01:45 and it was working before, from what i gather 04:01:57 seemingly. 04:03:06 "The 6 segment registers are all loaded with a segment selector, which is an offset into either the GDT or the current LDT. A segment selector is only 16 bits long and looks like this:" 04:03:08 YOU'RE A FUCKING LIAR 04:03:19 I'M IN REAL MODE 04:03:21 ahem 04:04:19 A 04:04:20 HA!!! 04:04:33 wait what 04:05:25 hehehehehe "boob*o*o*" AHEM 04:05:34 maturity elliott this is serious 04:07:50 brb testing NEW new kernel 04:08:01 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 04:09:44 -!- augur has joined. 04:13:18 -!- catseye has joined. 04:13:35 cannot exec /sbin/init: error 8 04:13:49 catseye: LAWL 04:14:25 translation: 04:14:32 You have no chance to survive make your time. 04:17:20 catseye: end of the netbsd era eh? 04:19:07 i apparently have to install more things somewhere else. 04:19:53 i need a kernel module for executing ELF files. 04:20:56 ok NOW i find http://www.netbsd.org/changes/changes-6.0.html 04:22:05 ok 04:22:40 ./build.sh modules 04:22:43 ok cool 04:23:57 Error 8 is ENOEXEC. 04:24:24 00056902415e[CPU0 ] fetch_raw_descriptor: GDT: index (807) 100 > limit (17) 04:24:25 Hmm. 04:24:29 Anyone know what that means? 04:25:29 You are trying to access GDT descriptor far above the limits. 04:26:09 Ilari: That's the thing, though; I'm really not. :) 04:26:14 Ilari: I think my kernel is still failing to load. *sigh* 04:26:28 WHAT DO YOU WANT, INFERNAL HARDWARE?! 04:27:09 Limit 17 would mean it only has 3 entries (null, code and data)... 04:27:15 Ilari: Indeed, it does. 04:27:29 Ilari: I think it's trying to run random memory since the kernel didn't load properly, or suchlike. 04:27:56 It seems like the descriptor its trying to access is 1024, 1025, 1026 or 1027... 04:28:12 Ah, no. 04:28:29 2048, 2049, 2050 or 2051. 04:29:07 Maybe you try to refer to 0x0008 (that would be code?) and get the bytes swapped for some reason? 04:29:15 Or offset by one. 04:29:43 Ilari: The code is loaded at 0x8000. 04:30:06 Ilari: The kernel, that is. 04:30:21 Ilari: Hmm... 04:30:26 jmp KERNEL_SEGMENT:0 04:30:32 I do this, but in protected mode. 04:30:41 Maybe I should do jmp KERNEL_SEGMENT * 16? 04:30:42 Because trying to refer to segment 0x0800 (instead of 0x0008) would trigger just that kind of error... 04:30:52 Ilari: Indeed, KERNEL_SEGMENT = 0x800. 04:32:15 If you are in pmode ring 0 with the likely GDT, the only valid segment to jump to is segment 8. 04:32:26 Ilari: Right. 04:32:37 Ilari: So what I need to do is... "jmp CODE_SEGMENT:0x8000", right? 04:32:50 I think so. 04:32:54 Ilari: Thanks; I'll try that. 04:33:29 You might need to initialize SS first so it validates after jump (0x0010?) 04:33:47 mov ax, DATA_SEGMENT 04:33:48 mov ds, ax 04:33:48 mov es, ax 04:33:48 mov fs, ax 04:33:48 mov gs, ax 04:33:48 mov ss, ax 04:33:52 Already done that. 04:34:03 Well, that should work. 04:34:24 qemu: fatal: Trying to execute code outside RAM or ROM at 0x000a0000 04:34:24 EAX=00000000 EBX=0000ff31 ECX=00000000 EDX=00000500 04:34:24 ESI=00000002 EDI=e900fed4 EBP=00000000 ESP=00006ef9 04:34:40 Bochs error is just... 04:34:42 Hah. You jumped into VGA memory. 04:34:45 00042725627e[CPU0 ] write_virtual_checks(): no write access to seg 04:34:46 00042725627e[CPU0 ] interrupt(): vector must be within IDT table limits, IDT.limit = 0x0 04:34:46 00042725627e[CPU0 ] interrupt(): vector must be within IDT table limits, IDT.limit = 0x0 04:34:46 00042725627i[CPU0 ] CPU is in protected mode (active) 04:34:49 Ilari: ha! 04:34:53 I wonder how I managed that. 04:34:59 I do set the segment register to vga memory in real mode. 04:35:05 DOSBox would lock up if you did that. 04:35:16 hmm 04:35:17 mov ax, DATA_SEGMENT 04:35:17 mov ds, ax 04:35:21 ds was where i had vga memory, so 04:35:26 mov word [0xB8000+ebx+2], 0x0F21 04:35:38 that's the last time i reference vga memory in my program and as you can see... 04:36:19 blub blub 04:36:21 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 04:36:23 What instruction actually triggers that execution attempt from VGA memory? 04:36:37 The 'jmp CODE_SEGMENT:0x8000'? 04:38:24 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:39:10 Ilari: I'm not sure how to get bochs to tell me that :) 04:39:48 Ilari: Hmm, I have replaced CODE_SEGMENT: with "push CODE_SEGMENT \ pop cs" earlier in the program. 04:39:52 Then just "jmp (KERNEL_SEGMENT*16)" later. 04:39:56 Same error, but that seems clear. 04:39:58 *cleaner. 04:40:01 POP CS doesn't exist. 04:40:16 Ilari: Are you sure? nasm assembles it happily. 04:40:43 At least on any x86 processor that supports protected mode. 04:40:53 Ilari: Oh, looks like it assembles it into a hopeless tangle of things... 04:41:03 mov ax, CODE_SEGMENT 04:41:03 mov cs, ax 04:41:06 That'll work, right? 04:41:17 I don't think you can do that either... 04:41:22 Ilari: Can you set CS at all? 04:42:03 -!- catseye has joined. 04:42:08 NetBSD catseye 5.99.39 NetBSD 5.99.39 (CATSEYE) #0: Sun Oct 31 16:54:30 CDT 2010 catseye@catseye:/usr/obj/sys/arch/i386/compile/CATSEYE i386 04:42:11 elliott: ^^ 04:42:21 now to install the userland! 04:42:22 I think only far jump, far call, far return, interrupt, syscall or sysreturn can change CS. 04:42:28 catseye: NO WAIT YOU SHOULD GIVE ME SSH FIRST >:) 04:42:30 :P 04:42:31 Or not. 04:42:43 Ilari: Oh. Then CS is already correct :) 04:42:45 jmp CODE_SEGMENT:dword other_side 04:43:31 Ilari: I'm actually at a complete loss why it jumps into VGA memory... 04:44:04 Ilari: KERNEL_SEGMENT is 0x800, so it's jumping to 0x8000. 04:44:11 And that's graphics VGA memory, not text VGA memory... 04:44:21 Ilari: I still think the floppy might not be reading correctly. 04:44:24 Wait, easy way to find out. 04:44:27 *** Failed target: mkvarsyesno 04:44:31 whuh-oh 04:44:42 Perhaps it runs off the end of kernel, there's only zeroes (AFAIK, that instruction can actually work) and then hits VGA graphics memory? 04:45:05 Ilari: *Possibly* the kernel isn't even *there* and there's only zeroes. 04:45:14 Ilari: It does pause a bit before crashing. 04:45:32 Ilari: But I'm calling the BIOS perfectly, I've even carbon-copied catseye's code -- I have no idea why it isn't reading from floppy! 04:46:13 00 00 is ADD [EAX], AL. With the segments the way they are, that works even with zero EAX... 04:46:31 Ilari: Indeed, I just added this:. 04:46:36 mov al, [KERNEL_SEGMENT*16] 04:46:36 mov byte [0xB8000+ebx+4], al 04:46:36 mov byte [0xB8000+ebx+5], 0x0F 04:46:36 mov al, [(KERNEL_SEGMENT*16)+1] 04:46:36 mov byte [0xB8000+ebx+6], al 04:46:36 mov byte [0xB8000+ebx+7], 0x0F 04:46:38 x:jmp x 04:46:40 Before the jump. 04:46:44 And it just says "boo" on my screen. 04:46:47 i.e. i'm putting zeroes there. 04:47:09 i.e. the kernel isn't getting loaded. 04:47:11 i.e. WTF? 04:49:08 elliott: did you post the code somewhere? 04:49:23 catseye: I TOTALLY CAN 04:49:36 catseye: Ilari: http://sprunge.us/MLOL 04:52:39 i like how sprunge has put "LOL" in that url 04:54:14 catseye: SO WUTZ MY BUG 04:54:15 LOL 04:55:39 It just says "boo"? 04:55:55 Appropriate for Oct 31 I suppose :) 04:56:16 catseye: i don't even know HOW 04:56:24 Today has been a good day. 04:56:25 catseye: if you look at my code, it all writes *after* the "boot!" 04:56:28 catseye: so wtf 04:57:29 Well, I just got back from trick-or-treating 04:57:36 free candy is best candy 04:57:46 "it all writes", you mean, the code after 'protect' does stuff? maybe "t!" is being erased 04:58:17 catseye: yeah but HOW 04:58:22 it makes the NONSENSE 04:58:23 Sasha: Yeah, I'm eating the leftovers ATM. 04:58:31 heh 04:58:40 (I did not buy the candy, for I live with my parents) 04:59:12 so do I 04:59:20 but I am 16 so I have an excuse 04:59:25 elliott: you pop bx 04:59:30 but your push bx is commented out 04:59:41 What's you excuse, pikhq? 04:59:45 catseye: uh right 04:59:53 catseye: push bx before "mov ah, 02h" 04:59:55 Sasha: 20 and go to school nearby. 05:00:00 eh 05:00:04 catseye: ok now it's just "boot!" 05:00:08 catseye: with what are presumably zero bytes after it 05:00:11 Sasha: So, similar position except it'd be *possible* for me to move out. 05:00:18 heh 05:00:20 Well, except that it's nearly impossible to find a job right now. 05:00:25 I want to move when I am of-age 05:00:27 i'm 8 years old and own a flute that gives me a bedroom 05:00:27 Fucking Bush. 05:00:36 *15, *don't own 05:00:36 even if I have to walk to Seattle 05:00:39 sadly, reality is never quite as perfect. 05:00:41 from Northern AZ 05:00:49 elliott's 15? 05:01:00 that explains the pompous douchebaggery 05:01:02 I actually did move out. And reality is a bitch and a half. 05:01:03 Sasha: 8 05:01:28 Sasha: The pompous douchebaggery is just from knowing far better than most people. 05:01:34 pikhq: oh shut up 05:01:37 you douchebag :) 05:01:40 thinking he knows far better 05:01:48 Sasha: it's always interesting to see how many people just accept the pompous douchebaggery until "zomg he's $age_at_time" which suddenly offers an explanation for why i'm a pompous douchebag 05:01:57 Sasha: But, see, he does. :) 05:02:01 which, of course, is just a rationalisation, but there you go... 05:02:04 See, I know more than elliott about lots of things. But, I'm not a douchebag. 05:02:14 elliott, I was a pompous douchebag at 15 too 05:02:18 Sasha: no, but you are, evidently, incapable of rational thought 05:02:20 elliott, I was a pompous douchebag at 15 too 05:02:25 Sasha: You're fucking 16. 05:02:27 and then serious depression kicked in 05:02:30 this in no way lends evidence to the proposition that my pompous douchebaggery is due to my age 05:02:33 Sasha: People don't change that damned much in a year. 05:02:38 so I am too depressed to be a douchebag 05:02:40 Everyone on the internet is depressed! Everyone on the internet has motherfuckin' autism! 05:02:50 Everyone on the internet is so much deeper than all these sheep! 05:02:53 elliott: And every other possible disorder. 05:02:54 I'm diagnosed with clinical depression 05:03:03 Everyone on the internet is fucking stupid and you too -- whoever is reading it, you too. 05:03:04 take pills and everything 05:03:52 catseye: i think i blame jews for my bootloader 05:03:57 it can't be that my code is wrong, absolutely not 05:04:18 elliott: Don't you have someone less offensive to blame? 05:04:34 pikhq: Oh, right, Muslims! 05:04:35 elliott: Like that witchdoctor over there? 05:04:41 * pikhq points at nearest black man 05:04:47 Actually I blame society. 05:04:51 I blame society for my murders. 05:05:36 hey, if there was no society, it wouldn't be murder, would it? let's move on. 05:05:48 elliott: so now that your stack is no longer stupid 05:05:57 catseye: still doesn't work at all 05:06:08 you *don't* see the other stuff being printed? 05:06:14 catseye: Nope; zeroes. 05:06:20 that you saw before. when the stack was stupid. 05:06:20 Well, spaces, but they're zeroes. 05:06:25 I saw nothing. 05:06:32 my mistake 05:06:33 I have never seen anything because *it isn't being loaded*. 05:06:44 Here's what's loaded right after the first sector, btw: 05:06:49 bits 32 05:06:50 org 0x8000 05:06:50 foo:hlt 05:06:50 jmp foo 05:07:36 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:07:37 write the code to display what's been loaded, before you got into protmode. 05:07:58 obv you have to write it in segmented form, so i didn't just say 'copy it to...' 05:08:15 "segmented form"="real mode" 05:08:58 catseye: i did 05:09:01 catseye: zeroes, the same 05:09:04 catseye: i did that like three times :) 05:10:20 elliott: i don't know if this is it but you don't set dl when you issue the reset interrupt 05:10:32 mine has: 05:10:33 movah, 00h; call code = reset 05:10:33 movdl, 00h; drive 05:10:34 int13h 05:10:44 yours skips the dl part 05:11:10 god forbid you are resetting some OTHER drive. 05:11:30 catseye: isn't dl initialised to current-drive??? 05:12:00 it may be, ok 05:12:11 catseye: i'll try though 05:14:03 -!- augur has joined. 05:15:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:15:39 catseye: same result 05:16:13 i should de-OPTOMISE my bootblock and make it easier to understand, but the only other thing i can suggest for now is to double-check your sec, cyl, head computations 05:16:31 i have a netbsd 5.999999 world now so i have to reboot to completely break my machine, you see 05:16:56 brb (knock on wood) 05:16:58 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:19:06 -!- catseye has joined. 05:19:19 NetBSD 5.99.39 inna house! 05:21:00 catseye: SSH! 05:23:03 otay 05:23:11 * catseye goes to log 05:25:11 Bad local forwarding specification 'R' 05:25:24 catseye: uh uh 05:25:26 catseye: what command did you run 05:25:43 ssh -L R 9292:localhost:22 cpressey@91.104.241.33 05:25:44 YOU SAID 05:26:09 catseye: *ssh -R 05:26:13 I must have made mistake lol 05:26:18 s/-L R/-R/ 05:26:38 ha 05:26:40 done 05:27:26 [1] Bad system call (core dumped) sudo chroot debian 05:27:26 catseye$ 05:27:33 wahoo 05:27:35 catseye: 2.6 SUPPORT WOO 05:28:03 hrm 05:31:14 xkcd is starting to bore me 05:31:32 Or at least, this one did 05:33:24 Sgeo: up until now *xkcd did not bore you*? 05:34:52 Night all 05:35:54 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:37:42 Europeans are ruining me. 05:38:05 Oh? 05:38:06 Recently I've been counting thumb-first. I don't know why, and I can't stop myself. I've become so conscious of it that I'm even more incapable of stopping it. 05:38:14 The other day I said "queue" instead of "line" 05:38:39 The queue thing might just be bits getting to you. 05:38:43 Gregor: ...what do americans normally count with? 05:38:46 Pinky first??? 05:38:56 elliott: Index-finger first, then to pinky, then thumb is #5 05:38:56 elliott: index finger down to pinky, thumb last 05:39:00 what 05:39:05 that is the most retarded thing i've ever heard 05:39:10 yes 05:39:11 elliott: Which is also how Brits count, by the way :P 05:39:15 no it isn't 05:39:17 well i don't dot hat 05:39:20 *do that 05:39:29 probably it never occurred to me to do something so blatantly illogical 05:40:13 Peple count on fingers? 05:40:18 Yes, peple do. 05:40:18 s/Peple/People/ 05:40:19 Ilari: and what is error 79? :) 05:40:19 Gregor: Just asked two friends, neither of them do that. 05:40:44 Gregor: I think my "Brits" you might mean "Brits in the 18th century". 05:40:45 I can't find a Wikipedia article on this. 05:40:46 *by 05:40:48 HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE. 05:40:49 elliott: Possibly. 05:40:58 elliott: Brits also use feet and miles btw. 05:41:04 Gregor: Yes. Yes we do. 05:41:11 Gregor: Usually for height and road distances only. 05:41:15 elliott: The units should DIE IN A FIRE. 05:41:15 Well, people under N. :) 05:41:27 elliott: Along with the stone. 05:41:29 pikhq: Y'know, they make perfect sense in base 12. 05:41:52 elliott: Tell that to the hand. 05:41:55 (unit) 05:42:11 Damn it, SOMEWHERE there must be an article about this on Wikipedia! 05:42:55 Gregor: Try "hands" 05:43:09 Gregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_counting 05:43:12 The human hand has five fingers [citation needed] 05:43:12 Finger counting, or dactylonomy, is the art of counting along one's fingers. Though marginalized in modern societies by Arabic numerals, formerly different systems flourished in many cultures,[1][2] including educated methods far more sophisticated than the one-by-one finger count taught today in preschool education. 05:43:13 Finger counting can also serve as a form of manual communication, particularly in marketplace trading and also in games such as morra. 05:43:13 Finger counting is studied by ethnomathematics. 05:43:14 ETHNOMATHEMATICS 05:43:18 elliott: Not useful. 05:43:24 Gregor: Ethno. Mathematics. 05:43:30 I count differently 05:43:34 79 => ELIBACC 05:43:37 the art 05:43:41 thx Ilari 05:43:46 catseye: so have you figured it out yet :P 05:43:59 I use the fingercounting method used by American Sign Language 05:44:20 Sasha: That's even screwier than conventional American counting :P 05:44:29 Sasha: I find that very very weird for numbers larger than 10. 05:44:42 Or, I use Chisanbop 05:44:51 "Just to be different" 05:44:58 * pikhq has no valid excuse for not knowing ASL. 05:45:11 I use thumb-as-5 to count up to 10 on one hand (but not usually) 05:45:15 well ok 05:45:17 up to 9 05:45:18 i lied. 05:45:19 Gregor: oh my god, when i start with a fist and try and put my index finger up to count 05:45:22 Gregor: my thumb automatically pops out 05:45:23 not joking 05:45:31 it is SERIOUSLY hard to get the index finger out 05:45:32 takes dedication 05:45:37 elliott: Point instead of counting. 05:45:40 :P 05:45:46 Gregor: Is that what all Americans do :P 05:45:52 elliott: Do binary numerals instead. 05:46:00 Just training a poor Brit on being a good A'merkin! 05:46:02 pikhq: Tried that once; really uncomfortable, impossible to understand. 05:46:05 wait if you start with the humb, how do you do 4? i can't hold my pinky back like that! 05:46:08 I can count in binary on my fingers 05:46:09 *thumb 05:46:15 elliott: Really simple to do. 05:46:29 elliott: Except that you flip someone off at 100. 05:46:29 catseye: ... do you use your thumb to hold your pinky while counting three? 05:46:36 with thumb-last, you use the thumb to hold the pinky in, at 3! 05:46:37 Erm. 100_2. 05:46:39 Gregor: yes! 05:46:43 pikhq: Requires tons of finger movement though. 05:46:44 catseye: Pretty pathetic :P 05:46:50 elliott: Yeah, well. 05:46:57 We're all retarded 05:47:04 elliott: That's what 10000100 is for. 05:47:12 That's what humans are 05:47:15 retarded 05:47:19 pikhq: Try 0b1000 05:47:20 pikhq: IMPOSSIBLE 05:47:32 elliott: 0? EASY. 05:47:37 Gregor: I should show you my "4", it's very entertaining what with the half bent fingers and all. 05:47:51 *European "4" 05:47:55 pikhq: but it's physically impossible to lift up like that! 05:47:58 catseye: We just hold the thumb in. So much easier. 05:48:05 elliott: ... Zero. 05:48:09 pikhq: ??? 05:48:10 pikhq: 0b1000 05:48:14 1000 in binary 05:48:20 elliott: Oh. Misparsing. 05:48:21 with your fingers 05:48:27 is physically torturous 05:48:27 elliott: 0 base 1000 is how I parsed it. 05:48:31 xD 05:48:42 elliott: It's half-bent. Quite annoying. 05:49:03 If I am feeling like a twat, I convert all my answers to octal for my math class. 05:49:13 Sasha: And then you don't just *feel* like a twat! 05:49:21 EXACTLY 05:49:36 Instead of kicking puppies, I do that 05:49:43 it's my only release for anger 05:49:57 * Sasha is slowly dying on the inside 05:51:50 * pikhq shoots Sasha in the leg 05:51:53 pikhq: Quater-imaginary finger counting. 05:51:57 Now you're slowly dying on the outside! 05:51:58 You could do so much worse than octal. 05:52:01 elliott: o.O 05:52:05 Hmm, that would be difficult. 05:52:08 Is there a binary equivalent? 05:52:09 Base-11 would be pretty mean. 05:52:10 Gregor: Base pi? 05:52:20 Gregor: I like duodecimal 05:52:23 Base pi would be more difficult to do than it was worth :P 05:52:28 Gregor: Base 9 is the worst for talking in. 05:52:31 It's so close to making sense. 05:52:33 or ternary 05:53:02 ooh, or sometimes I will use unal 05:53:15 Naaah, imaginary base. 05:53:21 pikhq: Golden ratio finger counting. 05:53:29 base i 05:53:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio_base 05:53:34 *ratio base 05:54:04 TIME FOR DUDLEY DO-RIGHT WOOH 05:54:21 catseye: You can disconnect from my box now :P 05:55:06 "Base √2 behaves in a very similar way to base 2 as all one has to do to convert a number from binary into base √2 is put a zero digit in between every binary digit; for example, 191110 = 111011101112 becomes 101010001010100010101√2 and 511810 = 10011111111102 becomes 1000001010101010101010100√2. This means that every integer can be expressed in base √2 without the need of a decimal point." 05:55:07 pikhq: This. 05:55:29 pikhq: Sounds quite comfortable for hand-counting. 05:55:37 elliott: Gorgeous. 05:55:44 oh lordy 05:56:08 pikhq: I suggest it be done right to left. 05:56:23 elliott: otay 05:56:25 That is, 1101| on hands where | is right edge of hands = 1011_sqrt(2) 05:56:33 eh 05:56:49 I work binary on my fingers from right to left 05:57:01 the pinky on my right hand has a value of 1 05:57:17 and the pinky on my left, a value of 128 05:59:43 bases are for the weak! i use pure numbers 06:00:23 you know what else is for the weak? 06:00:30 CORPOREAL FORMS 06:00:58 catseye: SO DID YOU DEBUG MY CODE 06:01:47 i've got it all figured out, man 06:01:53 but i'm going to sleep 06:01:55 good night 06:01:55 catseye: DARN 06:01:59 catseye: HAVE A BAD NIGHT 06:02:05 bye 06:02:15 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:10:27 -!- augur has joined. 06:25:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:42:28 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:44:00 "Did you just DETERMINE the capital of Spain?" --http://www.viruscomix.com/page490.html 06:44:15 And with that -- and a broken boot sector, too -- I leave you. 06:44:19 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:44:41 -!- wareya has joined. 06:44:55 -!- augur has joined. 07:06:59 -!- sftp has joined. 07:46:17 inb4 negabinary 07:46:46 also: i never thought i'd meet another person who counts binary on their fingers, but then i realized what channel i'm in ;) 07:46:58 i use palms towards me though, so right thumb is LSB 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:29:18 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:41:46 -!- Quadlex has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:42:32 -!- Quadlex has joined. 09:47:21 -!- Quadlex has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:51:41 -!- Quadlex has joined. 10:14:20 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:36:56 -!- p_q has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:40:16 -!- p_q has joined. 10:51:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:53:35 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:55:48 -!- augur has joined. 11:44:26 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:48:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:12:47 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:17:17 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:20:12 -!- wareya has joined. 12:23:53 -!- Deewiant has joined. 12:37:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:40:26 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me). 12:40:41 -!- rodgort has joined. 12:43:47 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:46:59 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 12:47:10 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:50:51 -!- fizzie has joined. 13:00:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: Page closed). 14:56:04 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:15:01 why on earth is configuring which program should open a given file type so hard in gnome? There is a checkbox to change default when selecting "open with". Thats all. No place to remove apps from that list for example. 15:15:50 I resorted to editing the underlying .ini-style config file 15:19:19 Other somewhat related issue: wine likes to steal associations for stuff like *.jpg, *.txt and so on for the included wine-notepad, wine-browser and so on. And keeps adding them back even if you remove them. Disabling that took some work as well. 15:20:15 Neither thing would be easy for a novice-user. Things like this are probably why we haven't yet seen the "year of the linux desktop". Heh. 15:20:23 oh btw, hi ais523 15:21:27 You can open Nautilus, select a file of given type, do right-click + properties + "open with"; that gives you a list (with add/remove/reset options) for that file type. 15:21:33 I'm not sure if there's some central place, though. 15:22:15 Vorpal: hi 15:22:16 fizzie, I'm pretty sure there is no central place. I found one for KDE though. 15:22:19 I'm in the middle of teaching my students atm 15:22:24 but one at a time, at 12-minute intervals 15:22:26 ais523, ah ok 15:22:31 ais523, java? 15:22:33 so presumably I'll do loads of talking up to but not including :24 15:22:35 yes, java 15:22:43 IRC's open for me to check up on in the gaps in between 15:22:51 okay 15:23:14 ais523, won't take your time with fea^W^W^Wstuff then! 15:23:30 ^W = delete last word 15:23:39 so that's "ais523, won't take your stuff then" 15:23:47 ais523, oh right, haven't slept for over 24h 15:23:50 which is presumably correct, if not what you meant to say 15:23:54 also, why avoid sleep for that long? 15:24:12 ais523, not intentional, trust me. I had an exam this morning so... 15:24:19 just couldn't sleep this night 15:24:25 so sleeping before it would have been a good idea? 15:24:39 ais523, yes, I tried but didn't work 15:24:45 it didn't* 15:33:49 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:44:01 what was the exam about, anyway? 15:58:23 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:59:07 *sigh* 15:59:24 If people weren't so afraid of following instructions, things would be much easier 15:59:27 Some printer wasn't working 15:59:47 I "fixed" it by following prompts that were on the screen and choosing to change the paper tray that it used 16:03:13 -!- GregorR has joined. 16:03:40 -!- GregorR has changed nick to Guest55736. 16:05:25 Guests can only watch the chat 16:08:57 Guest55736: stop impersonating Gregor! 16:09:08 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest395. 16:09:38 -!- Guest55736 has changed nick to Gregor. 16:09:52 I shouldn't have my BNC log in for me when it doesn't know my nickserv password :P 16:16:12 * Jackoz mumbles 16:16:23 good afternoon :) 16:21:26 -!- wareya has joined. 16:24:47 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:47:50 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 16:49:43 -!- p_q has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:50:28 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:55:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:59:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:59:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:04:43 what was the exam about, anyway? <-- computer networks 17:05:37 I "fixed" it by following prompts that were on the screen and choosing to change the paper tray that it used <-- do you seriously expect people to read any dialogue boxes? 17:06:12 Wasn't a dialog box, it was a message on the printer 17:06:14 But yeah 17:06:43 Wish people did 17:07:12 Sgeo, that is even less likely 17:07:34 Sgeo, what did you "fix"? 17:08:50 Switched the printer to tray 2 17:09:21 -!- FireFly|n900 has quit (Quit: ->). 17:11:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:31:21 -!- sftp has joined. 17:33:39 Your printer-fixing prowess is unohyou'regone never mind. 17:35:57 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Quit: omghaahhahaohwow). 18:01:34 -!- augur has joined. 18:07:43 -!- Gregor has quit (Disconnected by services). 18:07:48 -!- Guest395 has changed nick to Gregor. 18:08:13 -!- GregorR has joined. 18:08:35 -!- GregorR has changed nick to Guest7928. 18:10:34 -!- Guest7928 has quit (Client Quit). 18:14:00 -!- cpressey has joined. 18:17:06 -!- cpressey has set topic: 11 days since last oerjan sighting | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ | DEAD SERIOUS | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 18:18:55 he's probably on vacation 18:19:01 or dead 18:19:15 Or in a well. 18:19:28 Or on vacation, dead in a well. 18:19:50 The things people do for fun nowadays. 18:20:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: Page closed). 18:24:58 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:28:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:28:03 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 18:32:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:34:57 -!- tombom has joined. 18:45:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:49:21 Why does my AC adapter smell like burning solder ... 18:52:13 Parfum du overload 18:58:52 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 19:13:50 -!- elliott has joined. 19:14:10 Not a good thing? 19:14:36 07:15:01 why on earth is configuring which program should open a given file type so hard in gnome? There is a checkbox to change default when selecting "open with". Thats all. No place to remove apps from that list for example. 19:14:36 07:15:50 I resorted to editing the underlying .ini-style config file 19:14:36 07:19:19 Other somewhat related issue: wine likes to steal associations for stuff like *.jpg, *.txt and so on for the included wine-notepad, wine-browser and so on. And keeps adding them back even if you remove them. Disabling that took some work as well. 19:14:36 07:20:15 Neither thing would be easy for a novice-user. Things like this are probably why we haven't yet seen the "year of the linux desktop". Heh. 19:14:39 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:14:42 Normal people don't configure their apps. 19:14:46 Normal people don't use Wine. 19:14:55 Wine doing that sucks, and Gnome's feature could be more obvious, 19:15:01 but that is not a problem for "normal people". 19:15:30 hi ais523 19:15:43 good to see you; haven't in a while 19:17:12 real users don't use linux either 19:17:17 they just go with plan9 19:17:26 Jackoz: i swear, i had my pitchfork out 19:17:31 then you totally redeemed yourself 19:17:33 Jackoz++ 19:17:54 or, if they are able to manage bootloader, I can allow them to use their own OSes 19:19:05 elliott: you were scared about what? microsoft windows? rofl 19:19:16 Jackoz: BSDs or, hell, OS X :) 19:20:39 should I give this book (http://www.amazon.com/Purely-Functional-Structures-Chris-Okasaki/dp/0521663504) a try? 19:20:50 Jackoz: i swear, i had my pitchfork out <-- BSD joke right? 19:20:57 Vorpal: no. 19:21:02 Jackoz: YES! 19:21:06 Jackoz: Chris Okasaki is wonderful 19:21:14 elliott, worked as one anyway 19:21:23 I was thinking about buying it, now you convinced me 19:21:42 Jackoz: The examples in the book use a version of ML (not OCaml), too, so you probably won't have much trouble reading them. 19:21:55 (Laziness is done with a little ad hoc language extension, heh... He does give equivalents in Haskell though.) 19:22:11 elliott: another dialect? they should be all quite similar 19:22:19 Jackoz: Standard ML 19:22:25 the original that your poseur OCaml is derived from ;) 19:22:39 elliott: oh SML, btw laziness shouldn't be so hard to implement 19:22:58 Jackoz: yeah he just uses uh $x to denote lazy x i think 19:23:02 not sure he actually implemented it 19:23:02 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:23:07 but why would you want to *run* code?!?!? 19:23:14 we're theoreticians! pfft! 19:23:24 elliott: what I was wondering is if he will talk about complex things, cause easy ones are already enough mastered 19:24:11 Jackoz: I've never heard of anyone who doesn't recommend it :) I haven't read the whole thing myself but I've read parts and a lot of other things Chris Okasaki has written, and I've heard many, many recommendations from cool people, so. 19:24:42 Jackoz: You could always click that "look inside" link and get a selection of probably 5 of the most useless pages. :P 19:24:52 elliott: ok, you've been enough convincing again.. since this kind of books is usually not so much cheap :) 19:25:11 elliott: I just clicked the "look-rapidshare-inside" big red button 19:25:18 Yeah, CS books are... impressively expensive. 19:25:19 hehe 19:25:32 Jackoz: I couldn't read a whole book on a computer. 19:25:37 I'd have to at least print it out. 19:26:51 me neither, I definetely love the flavour of paper when I hold a book, but before spending some money a peek is needed 19:29:06 then I bought a pivot monitor just to have some comfort in reading books 19:32:19 I need an eBook reader that doesn't suck ass. 19:32:30 Maybe Gregor will convince me to get one of those iREXs. 19:32:38 *IREX. 19:32:59 "As publicly announced, IREX Technologies is no longer trading and this website has been permanently closed." 19:33:01 Gregor: Never mind! 19:33:29 They went bankrupt because of the FCC :P 19:35:10 09:33:39 Your printer-fixing prowess is unohyou'regone never mind. 19:35:13 whut 19:35:25 You switched back to Gregor and there's no record of anyone joining or /nicking in the interim in the logs 19:35:39 elliott: Yeah, don't get an IREX :P 19:35:51 Gregor: MORE IMPORTANT: EXPLAIN THIS MYSTERY 19:35:54 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:35:56 08:09:08 --- nick: Gregor -> Guest395 19:35:56 08:09:38 --- nick: Guest55736 -> Gregor 19:36:08 [time passes, no log discontinuity, no nicks to Guest395, no joins of that nick either] 19:36:09 Then 19:36:12 09:33:39 Your printer-fixing prowess is unohyou'regone never mind. 19:36:14 WHAAAAAAT 19:36:24 elliott: 1) I accidentally had two systems logging in and to set my nick, 2) My BNC doesn't know my nickserv pass. 19:36:39 Gregor: Oh, oh I see. 19:36:40 I thought it was 19:36:42 Gregor -> GuestX 19:36:45 GuestX -> Gregor 19:36:53 Gregor: You broke my brain with your numbers. 19:37:35 -!- cheater99 has joined. 19:44:25 elliott, I'm a bit confused about "unohyou'regone never mind" though 19:44:38 Try applying the splitting engine.; 19:44:41 s/;$// 19:44:58 hm 19:46:19 ah 19:47:04 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 19:47:33 elliott, doyouthinktextwrittenlikethisishardtoreadornot? 19:47:58 Vorpal: Not very. And besides, it was a non-word three words. 19:48:02 *non-word and three 19:48:11 elliott, yes 19:48:21 elliott: did you do anything more on the boot sector that went into protected mode? 19:48:30 elliott, I just generalised the issue 19:48:38 olsner: I am still working on it; currently, the issue is that it doesn't actually load the kernel. 19:48:46 olsner: This makes *no sense whatsoever*. 19:49:29 elliott, maybeyourenteredthenextsector,thatisrunoutofbytesintheMBR? 19:49:56 Vorpal: If I run out of bytes in the MBR my padding would be negative and it would not assemble. No: It is 512 bytes exactly. The issue is that the BIOS interrupt somehow does not load the kernel. 19:50:04 The code is only 208 bytes or so, anyway. 19:50:31 elliott, how easy was "maybeyourentered" to parse, did you need to backtrack from "you're" to "you en[tered]"? 19:50:55 This is beyond ridiculous. 19:51:00 elliott, true 19:52:01 elliott, I haven't slept for about 34 hours though 19:52:26 I just couldn't sleep this night. Sigh... some sort of temporary insomnia I guess. 19:52:34 Vorpal: wtf -- I couldn't either 19:52:50 Vorpal: Admittedly it was about 8am when I started sleepcrastinating and actually went to bed. 19:53:02 But then it was 12 am and nothing had happened. 19:53:11 This is why it is almost 7 pm now and I've just woken up. 19:53:16 elliott, am, that is [0,12) right? 19:53:23 or is it [12,24) ? 19:53:25 *12 pm 19:53:31 I can never keep them apart 19:53:33 From midnight onwards: 19:53:55 12 am, 1 am, 2 am, 3 am, 4 am, 5 am, 6 am, 7 am, 8 am, 9 am, 10 am, 11 am, 12 pm, 1 pm, 2 pm, 3 pm, 4 pm, 5 pm, 6 pm, 7 pm, 8 pm, 9 pm, 10 pm, 11 pm 19:53:59 anyway, I couldn't sleep in the day, had an exam 19:54:06 during* 19:54:17 Holidays here. Although ending rapidly.. 19:54:44 holiday week here, but only for high school and lower 19:55:03 I think TeX contains a lot of lies --- there is one error message that says "Missing { inserted", but actually it isn't inserting anything; what it does is skip the { if there is one, and otherwise displays the error message. 19:55:22 elliott, has the innovative name of höstlov (en:autumn holiday) 19:55:39 Vorpal: It's called "half term" here. 19:55:42 And yeah, high school and lower. 19:55:53 well, it is the current week iirc 19:56:04 zzo38: I think it means "I'm pretending there was a { here." 19:56:21 Vorpal: It was last week, but today is ~Teacher training day~ 19:56:25 elliott: Yes, that would be a better way of writing it, in my opinion. 19:56:30 elliott, for me it is called "exam week". Oh well, I have more days than usual free at least. 19:56:39 elliott, oh those 19:56:49 Pretty sure they just eat biscuits all day. 19:56:55 elliott: at the risk of being obvious, it sounds like the problem is that you're doing something wrong 19:57:01 elliott, you don't such during university you know 19:57:09 Vorpal: What, eat biscuits? 19:57:10 olsner: Yes, I considered that. 19:57:28 olsner: However I have directly ripped off cpressey's code again almost word for word and it *just doesn't work*. 19:57:33 elliott, no, skipped teaching due to teachers getting taught 19:57:43 Vorpal: Uh, yeah, I know that ... 19:57:49 I'm not a moron. 19:57:52 elliott, but biscuits, short supply too 19:58:08 olsner: http://sprunge.us/eKMD 19:58:24 olsner: Includes magical debug code! After "boot!" you see the first few bytes of the brave new world^W^W^Wloaded kernel. 19:58:27 Which are zeroes, as it stands. 19:58:34 hmm, I have some disk code here, but I don't know how it works, and I don't know if it actually supports a >1 sector kernel image 19:58:38 elliott, and the black market biscuits are too expensive for most students. 19:58:46 Vorpal: Theft. 19:59:03 olsner: Well, the BIOS call can load N sectors with a parameter for reasonable N. 19:59:03 elliott, you mean like, raid the cafeterias? 19:59:12 Vorpal: Sure. Or whatever shops are nearby. 20:00:00 elliott, campus is located at the edge of the city. Modern university. Not one of the old ones spread out over half the town centre 20:00:25 Vorpal: Psht! 20:00:48 hmm, what does dx=0 mean here? my code uses mov dx,0x0180 before all the disk calls 20:00:53 I gather that Oxford is like an unkillable patch of weeds. :) 20:01:00 elliott, should be fixable once the time travel lab gets some actual results 20:01:15 DH = head number 20:01:15 DL = drive number (bit 7 set for hard disk) 20:01:33 -!- p_q has joined. 20:01:43 So you read from the 0x80th head (??????????) of drive 1. 20:01:56 elliott, I can imagine (wrt Oxford) 20:02:00 no, head 1 of first hard drive 20:02:14 olsner: Oh, right. 20:02:18 olsner: Well, I'm on a floppy. 20:02:29 olsner: Also, *pretty* sure that DL gets initialised by the BIOS. 20:02:35 or 0th hard drive? or "the" boot drive? not sure which is which here 20:02:40 olsner: The worst thing is that *this* *worked*. 20:02:52 olsner: If I filled the floppy with /dev/urandom, it'd do crazy shit. 20:02:58 DL = drive number (bit 7 set for hard disk) <-- if not set, floppy? 20:02:58 olsner: If I filled it with /dev/zero, the same thing every time. 20:03:04 olsner: So *why* is it failing now??? 20:03:07 Vorpal: Dunno. Guess so. 20:03:11 elliott, what about cds then? they use something else? 20:03:17 CDs are weird. 20:03:25 oh right, now I remember 20:03:25 DL gets initialized by the BIOS (at least in Bochs, it does, anyways). 20:03:27 Don't think BIOSes can do them for you. 20:03:29 el torrito or something? 20:03:56 yes 20:03:58 El Torito 20:04:07 could it be that you're mistaking the address where the stuff is loaded? 20:04:15 elliott, why that strange name I wonders 20:04:17 wonder* 20:04:22 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:04:26 gah, don't change a /me to a /msg in the middle 20:05:03 According to legend, the El Torito CD/DVD extension to ISO 9660 gained its name because its design originated in an El Torito restaurant in Irvine, California.[2] The initial two authors were Curtis Stevens, of Phoenix Technologies, and Stan Merkin, of IBM.[2] 20:05:10 El Torito (Spanish for "the little bull") is a Mexican restaurant chain located primarily in California, with a small number of outlets in Oregon, Arizona, and Japan. They have a total of 69 outlets.[1] El Torito is one of several Mexican cuisine restaurants operated by Real Mex Restaurants. The executive chef is Pepe Lopez. 20:05:10 Founded in 1954, they claim to be "a pioneer in the California full service Mexican casual dining restaurant segment. Leveraging more than 50 years of operational experience, El Torito is currently the largest Mexican restaurant brand in California in terms of number of restaurants and operates franchise locations in Japan, Turkey and the Middle East."[2] 20:05:36 heh 20:05:51 Fuck OFF Jimbo, I'm not giving you any money. 20:05:55 Does the TRIP test allow that if I write C-TeX, I can make the error messages different? Or only the help messages? 20:06:14 Vorpal: There's also: 20:06:14 zzo38, what? 20:06:15 The Rock Ridge Interchange Protocol (RRIP, IEEE P1282) is an extension to the ISO 9660 volume format, commonly used on CDROM and DVD media, which adds POSIX file system semantics. The availability of these extension properties allows for better integration with Unix and Unix-like operating systems. 20:06:15 RRIP was developed by Andrew Young of Young Minds, Inc. in the early 1990s. The standard takes its name from the fictional town Rock Ridge in Mel Brooks' film Blazing Saddles. 20:06:17 zzo38: I don't know. 20:06:34 elliott, I know what rock ridge is, though I never thought about the reason for the name 20:07:11 elliott, I mean, Joilet. Is it named after Joilet, Arkansas or what? 20:07:13 ;P 20:07:27 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: I don't know). 20:07:36 huh 20:07:39 strange quit 20:07:47 who would remember the name of the fictional town in blazing saddles? 20:08:18 Vorpal: It's Microsoft; probably named after jolly toilets. 20:08:26 olsner, a creepily fanish fan! 20:08:36 olsner: Andrew Young 20:08:55 elliott, *shudder* that made me think of MS Bob 20:09:09 I hope the MS Bob recycle bin was a toilet. 20:09:13 "Flush" 20:09:16 elliott, google? 20:09:22 It won't be :P 20:09:41 "Microsoft originally owned the domain name bob.com, but traded it to Bob Kerstein for the windows2000.com domain name." 20:09:45 What a strategy. 20:09:49 Now if he had been called Dave... 20:10:06 Vorpal: "Bob's install images are used as "padding" on the original Windows XP install CDs as an anti-piracy measure." 20:11:09 elliott, you know, you could easily do this on your computer. 10 minutes max: 7 minutes to find good images to use. 1 minute to create a new theme and symlink the unchanged stuff in. half a minute to put new icons in, and then 20 seconds to change to that theme 20:11:17 (for the toilet in gnome I meant) 20:11:34 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 20:11:40 Vorpal: I don't use Gnome :P 20:11:53 elliott, well, which DE/WM do you currently use? 20:12:02 Xfce. Admittedly it uses the same icons. 20:12:11 But really, the only time I ever see the Wastebasket is in Thunar :P 20:12:35 elliott, the wastebasket? Oh you must mean the toilet. hah 20:12:50 mv old-data ~/.shitter 20:12:58 yes I know they can't draw a toilet 20:13:00 very strange 20:13:26 why do the artist always screw up toilet icons so they look more like paperbins 20:13:56 Vorpal: Linux users don't leave the room; they've never seen a toilet. 20:14:09 Although they'll need to change their XXXXXXXXL-size nappy soon. 20:14:26 Wow did not need that mental image. 20:14:38 olsner: SO HAVE YOU FIGURED IT OUT YET 20:15:01 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:15:49 elliott, I concluded in terms of "hi I'm a mac..." openbsd would be the linux "tronman" but with a tinfoil armour instead (one size too small) and a tie added. 20:16:36 the tie would be rather badly put on 20:16:54 Vorpal: and with really puffed up cheeks, red in the face with flame 20:16:59 perhaps holding a flamethrower 20:17:03 elliott, oh definitely 20:17:33 Vorpal: also there'd be little patches where there's no armour, but they'd have "ONLY TWO REMOTE HOLES" scribbled on. 20:18:06 then when he decides to talk to someone -- his head is in the armour too -- he opens it up and a swarm of bees attack him and he dies. Then he holds up a flag saying "I said in the DEFAULT installation!". 20:18:11 elliott, indeed. but I didn't like to draw such a mental NSFW picture (considering where those holes are...) 20:18:24 No. 20:19:06 NSFVI 20:19:07 @^@^@^@^@^@Uªôéúÿÿÿ^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@ 20:19:09 THIS IS INEXPLICABLE 20:19:26 cpressey, Not Safe For Vertical Integration? 20:19:35 elliott, ah there is a clear pattern to that! 20:19:42 Not Safe for Vorpal's Imagination 20:19:52 cpressey, oh, touche indeed 20:20:01 +-----------------------------------------------------------+ 20:20:01 | IMPORTANT: PLEASE DON'T MAKE ANY CHANGES TO THIS PROJECT! | 20:20:01 +-----------------------------------------------------------+ 20:20:11 ("The system saves every version of every project, so nothing is ever lost." Aww.) 20:20:21 elliott, where is that from? 20:20:33 OMeta/JS 20:20:59 elliott, it looks almost like frama-c, which is french which could explain why they use "project" to refer to "immutable processed version of the AST" 20:21:18 Presumably, they mean "projection". 20:21:20 Or something. 20:21:29 so as read in is one project, then value analysis creates a new project 20:21:42 elliott, yes probably but the result is rather weird :P 20:22:14 elliott, the english is quite good elsewhere in general. Just a few small things that stands out as odd, like this 20:23:31 elliott, can't find any desc on ometa/js when googling, just interactive "try it out online" kind of things 20:23:44 so, what is it 20:23:44 Vorpal: that is what ometa/js is 20:23:47 js = javascript 20:23:52 elliott, and ometa? 20:23:56 http://www.tinlizzie.org/ometa/ 20:24:15 a meta-meta-parser-framework-meta object framework parser meta meta. 20:24:23 elliott, hm, any good? Or just yet another one? 20:24:36 Vorpal: Mu. 20:24:46 Vorpal: It's a Viewpoints Research Institute project. 20:24:47 elliott, well it said programming language on the page 20:24:50 which is what I meant 20:24:55 It did not. 20:25:02 "yet another programming language, or one that stands out?" 20:25:11 oh wait indeed it didn't 20:25:14 "OMeta is a new object-oriented language for pattern matching" 20:25:25 well, object oriented language fooled me 20:25:45 It's half-research, half lovely VPRI madness. 20:26:13 elliott, what else have they done? Trying to remember what they are famous for 20:26:40 Vorpal: Alan Kay works there, and you may have heard of COLA/idris/pepsi/... 20:26:50 *idst 20:26:57 pepsi certainly but not in this context I think 20:27:17 http://piumarta.com/software/cola/ has some information. 20:27:25 cola (aka Idst, Jolt, the SODA languages, &c.) is an ongoing project to create a springboard for investigating new computing paradigms. Everything in it is late-bound, the intention being that any paradigm (existing or yet to be invented, formal complexity notwithstanding) be easily and efficiently mapped to it and made available to the user. It is a small part (the implementation vehicle) of the reinventing computing project. 20:27:43 very... meta? 20:28:42 Vorpal: COLA is -- uh, I think "COLA" is the word for this component -- a Smalltalk-esque language on top of it all. VPRI have used it to do insane things such as: 20:28:53 You know how in the IP (at least v4) RFC, it has a diagram of a packet? 20:29:02 They defined their packet structure by: 20:29:08 elliott, I got stuck at figuring out what "be easily and efficiently mapped to it and made available to the user" actually meant in practical terms 20:29:09 - Writing a parser for the ASCII diagrams 20:29:13 - Pasting the diagram in from the RFC 20:29:14 I mean, it parses fine 20:29:21 but uh 20:29:40 elliott, right, I heard about that 20:29:56 elliott, wasn't there some language with a name starting with E that supported that? 20:30:01 Vorpal: tl;dr user-as-programming, meta, etc. 20:30:06 E? Uhh... 20:30:10 Not E itself? 20:30:15 Vorpal: Epigram? 20:30:20 I don't think Epigram does that 20:30:20 elliott, ah yes! 20:30:21 *that. 20:30:23 hm 20:30:24 I may be wrong. 20:30:28 Trying to rack my brains... 20:30:28 might have confused it 20:30:31 elliott, might have *dreamt it* 20:30:32 It sort of rings a bell for that but... 20:30:47 I read something about visual structs and then about epigram quite recently 20:30:55 Vorpal: Whatever, anyway, tl;dr: VPRI is Alan Kay's organisation dedicated to being entirely too awesome on a regular basis. 20:31:31 elliott, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigram_%28programming_language%29 seems to have quite fancy decls anyway 20:31:37 it might be that I confused it with 20:31:47 Vorpal: Yes, Epigram 1 is... queer. 20:31:58 (Epigram *2* we're not entirely sure is a language. Or has syntax.) 20:32:03 (Or can be executed.) 20:32:10 elliott, awesome! 20:32:10 (Or is even thinkable of.) 20:32:20 And we've been trying to figure it out since, what, 2005? 20:32:22 elliott, huh 20:32:29 that means it must intersect with feather 20:32:38 Vorpal: No, it's just extreme vapourware. 20:32:42 Stuff happens, but at an amazingly glacial rate. 20:32:43 question is now, if it is a subset, superset, or just boring intersection 20:32:52 elliott, you mean like feather? 20:32:56 And Connor keeps deciding to chuck things out and rewrite whole swathes of the language. 20:33:04 Especially when it turns out that whoops, that won't work. 20:33:16 elliott, second system syndrome? 20:34:10 Vorpal: It's academia. The whole thing is practically an exercise in third system syndrome. 20:34:40 elliott, anyway I'm sure VPRI is awesome but it is a bit too meta to make any sense when I'm as sleep deprived as I am. 20:35:00 Don't worry, it doesn't make any sense when you're awake either. 20:35:01 elliott, as long as you can produce papers on it at a steady rate 20:35:19 elliott, I'm not sure if that is good, bad or lacks emotional value 20:35:28 It's meta. 20:35:44 elliott, wow, I would never have guessed! ;P 20:35:54 Vorpal: Anyway, VPRI don't need to write papers, they have FUNDING! 20:36:05 http://www.viewpointsresearch.org/html/sponsors.htm 20:36:06 elliott, I meant for epigram mostly 20:36:13 SNF, Intel, Motorola, HP, Nokia. 20:36:21 And in the past: ARPA, Xerox PARC, Atari, Apple, Disney. 20:36:27 *NFS 20:36:28 *NSF 20:37:00 elliott, those companies would want you to get results. Not getting results = no more funding. So they can't go too far into >1 system syndrome 20:37:16 Vorpal: VPRI get... few "results" as such. 20:37:31 elliott, hm, then why do intel still fund them 20:37:37 Vorpal: They did Squeak Etoys and Croquet. 20:37:46 And they *do* write papers and stuff. 20:37:51 But, uh, :) 20:37:57 elliott, Croquet... what was that now again 20:38:16 familiar, bell is definitely ringing, but there is all echo around here 20:38:19 Vorpal: A not-very-good 3D Smalltalk environment thing and oh god Sgeo is going to pipe up. 20:38:21 so no clue from where 20:38:30 Vorpal: It's an open project; VPRI aren't responsible for most of the badness. :) 20:38:32 elliott, he is not in the channel atm :P 20:38:55 elliott, and what did etoys do... 20:39:24 Vorpal: http://www.linux.com/var/uploads/Image/articles/130014-1.png 20:39:39 Vorpal: VPRI's official goal is "lol, computers + learning". 20:39:43 But really, an awful lot of it is just awesome shit. 20:40:02 elliott, hah. That explains so much about the awful colour theme of squeak 20:40:18 Etoys is an addon. :p 20:40:28 elliott, well, even without that it is quite... colourful 20:40:29 elliott: I'm missing a kernel image, obviously, but otherwise it does seem to me that it successfully loads some garbage and jumps into it 20:40:54 olsner: Well *that* it does not do, considering I put an infinite loop in there. 20:41:13 olsner: How about I give you a .tgz? 20:41:14 Something is up. 20:41:19 after removing the infinite loop obviously :P 20:41:21 Vorpal: Well, Disney. 20:41:37 elliott, they are behind sqeuak?! 20:41:41 squeak* 20:41:51 Vorpal: It was derived directly from Smalltalk-80 by a group at Apple Computer that included some of the original Smalltalk-80 developers. Its development was continued by the same group at Walt Disney Imagineering, where it was intended for use in internal Disney projects. 20:42:01 The colour scheme is just because fuck you. :) 20:42:06 heh 20:42:29 elliott, it isn't just the colours, it isn't just the shape of elements, it isn't just the icons. It is all three together. 20:42:42 It is pretty bad. 20:42:44 olsner: http://filebin.ca/eaxjwt/tempo.tar 20:42:55 elliott, what, we agree on a UI being bad? 20:43:01 Vorpal: Smalltalk-80 was much classier: http://tedkaehler.weather-dimensions.com/us/ted/resume/st80release-lic2.jpg 20:43:38 elliott, possibly only due to 1 bit per pixel from the look of that image... 20:43:56 Vorpal: You could easily add a few highlights and it'd still be nice. 20:43:59 Of colour, that is. 20:44:06 elliott, yes, it would even be nicer 20:44:15 http://www.abclinuxu.cz/images/clanky/krivanek/smalltalk-80-2.png 20:44:16 More. 20:44:18 elliott, like, make non-active window borders dark grey or something 20:44:26 http://www.abclinuxu.cz/images/clanky/krivanek/smalltalk-80-6.png 20:44:36 elliott, no colours? 20:44:42 Vorpal: It's the early 80s. 20:45:00 elliott, not common even with greyscale then 20:45:09 Vorpal: ? 20:45:26 Vorpal: http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/wolfgang.kreutzer/cosc205/images/stShot1.gif Early Squeak, basically Smalltalk 80 + colours. 20:45:26 elliott, that is b&w, not even 4 bit greyscale or such 20:45:31 Admittedly not very nice colours. 20:45:44 Vorpal: The Macintosh was 1-bit in 84. 20:45:55 elliott, that actually looks better than modern squeak... 20:45:55 http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/wolfgang.kreutzer/cosc205/images/stShot12.gif FUCKING OW MY EYES 20:46:16 olsner: So have you fixed it yet?!?!?!?/1 20:46:21 elliott, I hope this can be blamed on gamma or something 20:46:31 Vorpal: IT CAN'T AIEEEEEE 20:46:35 elliott, ouch 20:46:38 elliott: nope, but I seem to have discovered how to connect gdb to bochs 20:46:51 olsner, sounds like quite a feat 20:46:59 Vorpal: bochs is designed to do that :P 20:47:12 elliott: doesn't make it less of a feat :P 20:47:15 elliott, I thought it had a built in debugger? 20:47:17 and well 20:47:22 everything with bochs is a feat 20:47:26 Well, yeah. 20:47:42 Every time I think "Oh, I should use bochs" I start crying. 20:48:05 " It can also be used to run older software – such as PC games – which will not run on non-compatible, or too fast computers." --Wikipedia 20:48:07 *"It 20:48:12 I can't imagine any game wanting to run on a computer THAT slow! 20:48:13 afaik, the built-in debugging amounts to having a grayed-out menu option for displaying memory contents, and a box that displays the registers (in real-time! making it too fast to see anything) 20:48:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:49:13 elliott, for recording perfect frame timing? 20:49:41 elliott, because you no longer need a software that allows you to go back to previous frame if you screwed up! 20:50:14 Ooh, you could use bochs for tool-assisted speedruns. 20:50:21 You get a whole hour to decide what input to give each frame. 20:50:23 elliott, yes what I said basically 20:50:34 Right. 20:50:37 elliott, well, lets be fair. 45 minutes max on a modern computer 20:51:15 probably could be as little as 40 minutes, but I doubt less than that 20:54:43 http://www.viewpointsresearch.org/html/work/pichri.htm: "For example, the Wikipedia is impressive in its number of entries and that it has been made and sustained by the larger Internet community, but its content is mostly hyperlinked text with a few pictures and formulas. It is very far from rich dynamic computer media and from the kind of content that most learners need." <-- because there are only so 20:54:43 many ways to graphically illustrate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_a_disjunct (first result on clicking random article) 20:54:46 elliott, ^ 20:55:08 and? 20:55:15 VPRI are focused primarily on children learning 20:55:29 elliott, well, wikipedia isn't just that though, so bad example maybe 20:55:54 Sigh: 20:55:55 "I blame java and bloated, resource-hogging platforms. The disk drive has increased in speed quite a bit in the last 10 years and is still the slowest thing in a computer (excluding the user). If we wrote all programs in efficient languages like C and ASM, our computers should be thousands of times faster than we perceive them to be today. The reliance on interpreted languages and bloated platforms (even the browser is considered a platform nowad 20:55:55 ays and is mega-bloated if you ask me) but people continue to think that the advancements of hardware will make up for the lazy and bloated programming solutions that people come up with nowadays." 20:55:58 Comment on the Loper OS blog. 20:56:04 Because as we all know 20:56:10 (1) GNOME is incredibly lightweight and speedy, and 20:56:15 (2) Smalltalk was impossibly slow. 20:56:22 XD 20:56:27 elliott, what idiot wrote that? 20:56:43 http://badcheese.com/; he was kind enough to leave a name and URL so we can all know to not listen to him in the future. 20:56:44 though, gnome is not slow enough to cause any annoyance at least. 20:56:53 GNOME has got better :) 20:57:01 But it's certainly not super-C-speedy, that's for sure. 20:57:02 elliott, well, I used KDE back when GNOME sucked 20:57:13 elliott, of course, but as long as it is fast enough, who cares 20:57:25 Well, see http://www.loper-os.org/?p=300, the post on which it is a comment :) 20:57:49 GNOME is not quite fast enough for me to like it. It is okay though. 20:57:51 KDE 4 is slower. 20:58:08 elliott, metacity or compiz? 20:58:17 elliott, I found metacity far more responsive 20:58:31 I have used both. 20:58:36 hm 20:58:49 Anyway, existing DEs have far greater problems than speed. 20:59:01 elliott, even on my old sempron 3300+ gnome is fast enough that I don't notice any speed difference compared to, say, twm 20:59:29 "You can click the mouse on ANY area that you can see in the editor and the cursor will go there and allow you to start typing. 20:59:29 If you position yourself at the beginning of the line and hit the left arrow, you will not budge. 20:59:29 If you position yourself at the end of the line and hit the right arrow, you will keep moving right 20:59:29 This is how IntelliJ IDEA works by default." 20:59:36 * elliott puts IntelliJ IDEA on his list of "weird things". 20:59:46 oh no 20:59:53 cpressey: ? 20:59:59 i've heard of that thing 21:00:09 elliott, actually that sounds almost like kate in block mode 21:00:16 elliott, apart from the arrow at start of line 21:00:51 elliott, it is useful to move and copy rectangular blocks rather than every letter between two points 21:00:56 and such things 21:01:11 elliott, I use it every now and then, try it out if you never used it 21:01:34 I used it extensively when I used TextMate and I have developed a healthy hate of every other editor ever because I can't figure out how to do it quickly. 21:01:39 With TextMate it's just alt+drag. 21:01:59 elliott, it's a mode because it interacts with copy and paste too 21:02:03 even from other apps 21:02:04 also, I'd just like to say, in Python, string.upper() should totally be a magical attribute (str.upper) that hides the method, because that would be so pythonic, i.e. conceptually incoherent 21:02:23 elliott, in that, what pasting a multi-line thing does changes with this mode 21:02:33 cpressey: Also, x.sort. 21:02:33 back to your regularly scheduled IntelliJ IDEA wtf'ing 21:02:38 elliott: yes totally 21:02:38 print x.sort 21:02:39 print x 21:02:41 Yay! 21:02:43 It's so convenient! 21:02:52 cpressey, __upper__! 21:02:56 (no reason) 21:02:59 Vorpal: Oh, and the nicest thing about it in TextMate: 21:03:00 (just more... python) 21:03:10 Vorpal: If you alt-drag vertically across a certain bit and type, it *adds to all those lines*. 21:03:17 how about every method you could define has a __methodname__ counterpart 21:03:35 Vorpal: 21:03:40 b|lah 21:03:40 q|uux 21:03:40 a|sdf 21:03:40 a|brt 21:03:40 -------------- 21:03:41 bX|lah 21:03:42 qX|uux 21:03:44 aX|sdf 21:03:46 aX|brt 21:03:48 After typing "X". 21:03:51 This is *insanely* useful. 21:04:05 elliott, inded 21:04:07 indeed* 21:04:11 Does kate do that? 21:04:18 elliott, uh, let me try 21:05:09 elliott, alas it does something else. Anyway it is the two-mode thingy 21:05:15 Bah! 21:05:26 elliott, still the features somewhat overlap, none has all the features of the other one 21:05:33 elliott, I assume leaden will do this? 21:05:46 Yes. Or if it doesn't, amend will :) 21:05:53 elliott, amend? 21:06:04 which one was that 21:06:08 sounds familiar 21:06:13 Leaden is what I call prereleases of amend because calling anything amend that does not live up to its name is sinful. 21:07:30 So basically leaden is amend before it turns into a gigantic beast worthy of emacs complexity :) 21:08:24 elliott, also I'm sorry to inform you that it is my duty to inform you that you have exceeded the names reserved / actually used limit. To prevent phase space depletion you are now forbidden from naming new things until you implemented at least 4 of the current reserved names. 21:08:46 BAH 21:10:56 elliott, you could also send in form 14c(32)b9 in three copies to request a release of some of your reserved names. That is three copies per name to release. 21:11:40 then you would get a confirmation form 11t(53)h14 in return to sign and send back 21:20:26 elliott: hmm, when you're testing and it doesn't work, do you compile with the code that sets the real sector to find the kernel image or do you compile with mov cl,3; mov ch,3; which is the wrong values? 21:20:48 olsner: the values are wrong? 21:20:55 I worked them out using cpressey's bootloader code. 21:21:12 because if I replace that with mov cx,KERNEL_START, it boots and halts at 0x8001 21:21:17 olsner: Feel free to fix the values :P Ignore KERNEL_SECTORS btw, it's way too big to work with the bios call, just pretend the kernel is 2 sectors or something. 21:21:25 olsner: don't you mean mov cl? 21:21:52 But, uh, wow, you're right. 21:21:57 well, same thing, except it doesn't rely on ch already being 0 from before 21:22:17 olsner: aren't all the registers defined to be zero on boot? apart from dl 21:22:43 on boot, but I don't want to do dataflow analysis on your boot loader to find out if that's the value still lying around in ch when it gets there 21:22:56 night → 21:23:10 olsner: i'm planning to do the a20 line properly, so i'm space-optimising to make room for that :) 21:24:55 you could skip it and do A20 in the second stage/the kernel :P 21:25:12 olsner: NO IPOSSIBLE 21:25:18 it must be done in the boot block! 21:25:31 i refuse to give reasons for this 21:25:37 cpressey sure hates me 21:25:48 olsner: but i want my kernel to be in a nice environment when i get to it! 21:25:51 besides i have space :D 21:26:17 olsner: What I *am* worried about is, if I want to modify the GDT and IDT later, I have to modify them where the bootsector is, right? 21:26:32 olsner: So, basically, they can be about two, three hundred max, combined. 21:26:32 elliott: i feel half-responsible, since i had a similar idea (go into unreal mode in the bootblock) 21:26:44 cpressey: that was zzo38's idea :) 21:27:02 elliott: he doesn't actually do it in the bootblock - that was my misrecollection 21:27:09 ah 21:27:20 hmm, I think you can change them later 21:27:25 cpressey: well, unreal mode = protected mode + more code :) 21:27:31 prit' much yeah 21:27:47 olsner: you can relocate them? 21:27:47 hmm 21:27:50 seems a bit pointless though 21:27:51 ehh 21:27:51 but in the GDT case, you really don't need more than one data and one code segment 21:28:04 olsner: unless i start doing crazy shit :) 21:29:34 olsner: now all I have to do is have a loop so i can load more than 8.5 kilobytes of kernel 21:30:22 yeah, you should be checking al after int 13h, that contains the number of sectors read 21:31:04 olsner: erm, the only reason it'd load less than what i tell it to is if something went wrong, surely 21:31:13 and if something went wrong i'm not interested :) 21:31:40 olsner: presumably carry is set if al < the input al? 21:31:45 in which case, i retry anyway 21:31:48 maybe :) 21:33:02 olsner: but hey, 8.5k is good enough for now :) 21:33:05 Welp, there goes that afternoon. 21:33:13 that's over 17 times this bootsector! 21:34:38 olsner: remind me to get around to doing a higher-half kernel sometime :P 21:34:54 say, I don't need CODE_SEGMENT and DATA_SEGMENT defined inside the kernel proper, do I? 21:34:58 since they're cs and ds anyway 21:35:49 nah, you only need those if you ever wanted to reset cs or ds... maybe that's relevant when you get to multitasking, but I haven't really gotten that far myself yet 21:36:00 yeah 21:36:20 in any case, you know them since you set up the gdt, those are just constants anyway 21:37:23 hmm 21:37:30 does blinking exist at the vga memory level? 21:37:31 I guess not 21:37:49 it's just that qemu displays my A20 error as solid black on solid white 21:38:09 and bochs displays it as flickery (not blinking, really, just *flickery*) black that seems to be grey eveyr now and then on top of grey 21:38:17 (grey being the default colour, the "greyish white") 21:38:26 I think there's magic involved that determines whether it's a high-intensity or blinking bit, or something like that 21:38:27 and, well, it's 0xF0 the attribute 21:38:32 right 21:38:33 oh well 21:38:33 :) 21:38:47 solution: don't have a computer that doesn't have the A20 bios routines 21:38:56 or, just wait until I put actual A20 code in there 21:39:40 Can someone explain why x86 is so damn register-starved? 21:40:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:50:02 One of the VGA registers controls whether the high bit of the background color does "high intensity" or "blink". 21:54:58 fizzie: Does it have a defined default? 21:56:42 "The "Unity" user interface that debuted in Ubuntu 10.10's Netbook Edition will be standard on the next version of the Ubuntu Desktop Edition, as well. Ubuntu Desktop 11.04 will replace the Linux distribution's default GNOME environment in favor of the multitouch-enabled Unity user interface, says Canonical." 21:57:10 So much for GNOME Shell. 21:58:46 ooh, http://wiki.osdev.org/Entering_Long_Mode_Directly 21:59:03 olsner: yeah, it's 21:59:05 olsner: unreliable. 21:59:35 unreliable? 21:59:40 olsner: It's not documented. 21:59:49 The only documented way to enter long mode is via protected mode. 21:59:58 I'd rather go through the hassle than risk things. :) 22:00:17 elliott: Don't know about defaults, but according to the Interrupt List you can do ax = 1003h, bx = 0000h/0001h, int 10h to disable/enable the blink bit. 22:00:30 -!- MigoMipo__ has joined. 22:01:03 fizzie: Woo, that works. Thanks. 22:01:25 elliott: hmm, ok... well, I already have the protected mode code, so I might as well do the long mode stuff directly afterwards rather than changing the code 22:01:33 olsner: yaeh 22:01:35 *yeah 22:01:45 olsner: I'm not sure whether I want long mode or not :) 22:01:53 olsner: although more registers would be very, very, very, very, very, very nice... 22:02:14 -!- MigoMipo__ has quit (Client Quit). 22:02:38 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 22:02:38 you can use long mode as a simplified protected mode that accidentally also supports some 64-bit stuff 22:03:02 olsner: how is it simplified? 22:03:33 some things like segmentation disappeared in long mode (however much simpler that makes it) 22:03:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:04:15 but other than that, I guess not simpler at all just different 22:04:20 olsner: You still have paging though. 22:04:36 Or whatever. 22:05:00 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:05:55 If you want "documented", incidentally, the AMD doc 24593 (AMD64 Architecture Programmer's Manual, Volume 2: System Programming) has a "Long-Mode initialization example" assembly code snippet -- 4.5 pages, but well over half is comments -- that starts from real mode, goes to protected and from there to long. It's not the most elegant piece ever, and does things like CPUID checks for whether the long mode actually exists. 22:06:16 My boot sector is now 214 bytes long. 22:06:28 elliott: TOO MUCH 22:06:34 So I get to fill the remaining 296 bytes! 22:06:50 olsner: hmm, doesn't the idt tend to get kinda big? 22:06:56 Or am I misremembering? 22:08:17 You can run things in your boot sector with that empty IDT and interrupts disabled, and then in your kernel code relocate it somewhere where you have lots of space before enabling the interrupts. 22:09:33 fizzie: I *could*, yes, but the idea is sort of to not have to relocate things, just being able to modify the existing gdt and idt. :) 22:09:42 Hey... How do you get the location of the GDT and IDT? 22:09:47 Do I have to store them somewhere? 22:10:05 have you already forgot where you put them? :) 22:10:30 olsner: No, it's just that my kernel is compiled separately, so it can't know where the GDT and IDT are unless it can get the location somehow :) 22:10:58 well, you can make that detail part of your boot loader|kernel interface 22:11:13 olsner: there is no such interface :) 22:12:03 hmm 22:12:05 idtr:dw 0 22:12:05 dd 0 22:12:08 is this "limit 0, offset 0"? 22:12:14 great -- so i have no interrupt table at all :) 22:12:23 yep, the limit is the first value (the 16-bit one) 22:12:34 olsner: starting to think that maybe, just *maybe*, this won't fit inside the boot sector 22:12:38 olsner: especially not if I do A20 the proper way 22:12:57 elliott, new version of Golly out, FWIW. 22:13:05 Phantom_Hoover: kay 22:15:04 Proper support for different topologies seems to be the Big Thing in it 22:16:35 * Phantom_Hoover decides to check the long-term evolution of the TTT with it, 22:18:03 -!- p_q has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:19:20 elliott: SGDT and SIDT should help you. 22:19:34 They're the inverse operation of LGDT/LIDT. 22:19:39 Phantom_Hoover: TTT? 22:19:41 fizzie: Ah, thanks. 22:20:06 elliott, a pattern on a tubular universe with unknown-ish long-term behaviour. 22:20:19 Phantom_Hoover: Link? 22:20:23 fizzie: Wait, I could always just point the GDT and the IDT somewhere else in memory, right? 22:20:33 fizzie: And put stuff there in the bootloader, and then expand on it later inside my actual OS code? 22:20:59 I don't see why not, assuming they're low enough for the 16-bit mode code to write to. 22:21:34 -!- p_q has joined. 22:23:08 fizzie: Well, OSes have to write to such a location anyway, so. 22:25:02 elliott, look for "Titanic Toroidal Traveler" at http://www.argentum.freeserve.co.uk/lex_t.htm 22:25:40 A curious bit of trivia: an empty interrupt table like that is how Windows on a 286 used to switch from its protected mode back to real mode; the virtual 8086 stuff and the "proper" way to get from protected to real were only added in the 386. 22:26:08 Phantom_Hoover: so just that, repeated forever horizontally? 22:26:18 you had me at "A20 is routed through the keyboard controller" 22:26:20 elliott, yeah. 22:26:29 cpressey: you didn't know that? :) 22:26:33 Phantom_Hoover: heh 22:26:44 elliott: not until yesterday 22:26:47 I don't think the long-term behaviour is nearly as enigmatic as they claim, FWIW. 22:27:02 In the 286, you needed a reset; and reseting the processor via the RESET pin (from the keyboard controller, again...) was slow. But if you put in an empty interrupt table, then segfault, double-fault (due to missing interrupt handler) and triple-fault (due another missing interrupt handler) the CPU will reset a lot faster. 22:27:12 cpressey: there is a "fast a20" that skips talking to the keyboard controller, and bios stuff for it 22:27:24 cpressey: but the proper way involves talking machine code to the keyboard port. 22:27:42 cpressey: 8042 machine code, to be precise. 22:27:54 (Well, the first interrupt could be just "int 3" or anything, it doesn't need to be a fault.) 22:28:15 fizzie: Wouldn't that... reboot the computer? 22:28:49 elliott: Not if you patch the place where the reset ends up in; that's in real memory. 22:29:19 fizzie: lovely 22:30:02 Apparently also Windows on a 386 used an invalid instruction to do a "syscall" from v86 mode, since it was the fastest way. 22:33:11 Hmm, Golly allows the projective plane as a topology. 22:33:11 Yep, it breaks down. 22:33:42 olsner: how goes your long mode hackery? :-) 22:33:52 I think I will go into long mode, just for simplicity. 22:34:04 64-bit on a floppy 22:34:05 lovely 22:34:27 elliott: But what about hardware task management! It's mostly gone in long mode. 22:34:35 elliott: just leisurely reading the system programming manual 22:34:41 Well, that was fun. It seems that the color setting on my monitor was hella-weird. 22:34:46 fizzie: Oh dear, I will shoot myself. 22:34:55 olsner: "leisurely" 22:35:03 Task-State Segments and whatnot. 22:35:08 elliott: spelling? :) 22:35:37 Oh, and more importantly, you can't go to virtual-8086 mode from long mode. 22:36:34 always wondered about that - so you use virtualization to run real-mode code or something? 22:36:38 -!- augur has joined. 22:37:40 fizzie: "hardware task management"? 22:37:44 olsner: Maybe you just don't run it. 22:37:56 olsner: "64-bit Windows versions do not include NTVDM or Windows on Windows, so there is no native support for the execution of MS-DOS or 16-bit Windows applications." (Though that was for the 64-bit XP.) 22:38:38 You know, I don't think I want to know. 22:38:58 I should check how virtualization works on amd64, iirc virtualization used to rely on VM86 to run all the boot loaders etc of the guest os:es 22:39:01 cpressey: There's a rather complicated hardware multitasking thing (based on the segment stuff; handles register saving and so on, and privileges) that's been mostly cut off in the long mode. 22:39:03 * cpressey hugs the 6502 22:40:04 As far as I know, not very many operating systems actually use it. 22:40:11 which only works for sane boot loaders and not e.g. the OS/2 boot loader that went into unreal mode before starting the real boot loader 22:40:19 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 22:40:26 http://i55.tinypic.com/261dnav.gif seems to be their current plan for implementing spherical topologies. 22:41:03 That's so obviously not valid it's not even funny. 22:41:23 -!- p_q has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:43:09 olsner: Well, the amd-64 processors still do *have* the legacy mode with all the vm86 bits, you just can't invoke them normally from long mode. I guess the virtualization control block structures let the guest be in legacy mode. 22:43:41 fizzie: that makes sense 22:43:45 olsner: "To facilitate virtualization of real mode, the VMRUN instruction may legally load a guest CR0 value with PE = 0 but PG = 1"; so you can have the guest in real mode but with paging enabled. 22:44:02 Phantom_Hoover: that's hilarious 22:44:17 "This processor mode behaves in every way like real mode, with the exception that paging is applied." 22:44:32 cpressey, OK, it takes a certain type of mind to find that amusing. 22:44:37 elliott: spelling? :) 22:44:39 no, just 22:44:45 reading the x86 manual leisurely :D 22:44:57 olsner: so there IS a real boot loader out there that goes into unreal mode! cool. 22:45:03 cpressey: yep! 22:45:29 Phantom_Hoover: I'm not listening to you because you are just a mirror image of the OTHER Phantom_Hoover. 22:45:42 and OS/2 is one of the few operating systems that use more than two of x86's privilege levels ("rings") 22:46:08 usually you have kernel mode and user mode, but OS/2 has two or three levels of kernel mode 22:46:17 which only works for sane boot loaders and not e.g. the OS/2 boot loader that went into unreal mode before starting the real boot loader 22:46:25 Real that unreals to load the real. 22:47:35 olsner: hmm, if i go into real mode, the gdt i already have will be the only one that works, right? 22:47:38 so i only have to relocate the idt 22:48:26 hmm? you're going into real mode now? 22:48:29 *into long mode 22:48:34 olsner: or, wait, i'd actually want two more entries, wouldn't i? for user mode 22:48:40 you'll load a new long-mode gdt 22:48:58 olsner: the mind boggles. 22:49:09 olsner: you know what, i'll wait for you to write long mode stuff and then rip that off :) 22:49:14 ooor, would you? I don't know if long mode even has a gdt, it doesn't have segmentation anyway 22:49:34 olsner: it uses a flat gdt 22:49:35 i think 22:49:39 requires, even 22:49:40 yes, long mode has a gdt and it has a different format 22:49:42 olsner: It does have a GDT, but the descriptors are different. 22:49:44 Right. 22:50:08 oh joy :) 22:50:27 Phantom_Hoover: Seriously, wouldn't a geodesic dome-like-thing make more sense? 22:50:32 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:50:48 http://i55.tinypic.com/261dnav.gif seems to be their current plan for implementing spherical topologies. 22:50:49 what 22:50:50 cpressey, for the spherical topology thing? 22:51:19 It's topology, so it makes no difference the precise shape. 22:51:34 elliott: most of the example from osdev (the hack that skips protected mode) is also applicable for jumping from protected to long mode 22:51:44 But it *is* impossible to fit any planar neighbourhood onto a sphere. 22:51:52 olsner: copying you is so much easier though :) 22:52:03 Or a projective plane, but that's stopped them even less. 22:52:13 Phantom_Hoover: you can't cover a sphere with squares anyway, if that's what they're trying to do in theory 22:52:22 elliott, I object. 22:52:34 Phantom_Hoover: oerjan proved it once :) 22:52:56 Cubes are, after all, a topologically spherical object covered with squares 22:53:04 elliott: but then you won't *learn*! 22:53:05 You can't have a Moore neighbourhood, though. 22:53:17 olsner: i will, by copying your code carefully :) 22:53:24 Phantom_Hoover: well, right 22:53:31 Phantom_Hoover: can't be equally-sized squares though :) 22:53:45 Uhhh no it's not topology exactly. 22:53:53 elliott, have you looked at a cube lately. 22:54:14 cpressey, Euler characteristics, which are what oerjan's proof used, are a topological thing. 22:54:18 elliott: Re long-mode gdt: "This LGDT [for the 64-bit mode] is only needed if the long-mode GDT is to be located at a linear address above 4 Gbytes. If the long mode GDT is located at a 32-bit linear address, putting 64-bit descriptors in the GDT pointed by [pGDT32] -- the 32-bit GDT -- is just fine." 22:54:19 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 22:54:44 You do need a 64-bit IDT, because the descriptors are of completely different size and so on. 22:55:40 fizzie: hmm, so you overwrite the gdt with completely different data, then do a new far jump to a 64-bit segment, and it works? 22:55:54 fizzie: Can you go into long mode with interrupts disabled? 22:56:00 Phantom_Hoover: If this can be done with "just" topology then... I don't know why they are trying 22:56:18 If so, plan: Use the code I have now. Make it jump into long mode and mangle the GDT properly. Let the OS handle setting up an IDT. 22:56:20 doing this with interrupts enabled seems like a very dubious idea 22:56:25 cpressey, because they don't know topology. 22:56:39 Isn't there only one way you can have a GDT set up in long mode? 22:56:46 I'm trying to tell them why it's impossible on the mailing list. 22:57:06 A geodesic dome construction might not be topologically kosher, or even geometrically kosher *really*, but it would... shoehorn what they're trying to do, onto a sphere, in a way that's "fair". 22:57:11 link to their mailing list? 22:57:40 olsner: I don't know how it works: the example just says that the 32-bit GDT will need "at a minimum" "1) a CPL=0 16-bit code descriptor for this code segment", "2) a CPL=0 32/64-bit code descriptor for the 64-bit code." and "3) a CPL=0 read/write data segment, usable as a stack". 22:58:14 All I mean is: when we say "n neighbours" we kinda sorta really mean "n UNIQUE neighbours" and fudging that is silly. Fudge something else please. 22:58:15 This AMD64 example enables protected mode, but uses 16-bit protected mode code to go to long mode. 22:58:42 right, so it just stays in the old code segment after setting protect enable? 22:58:48 16-bit protected mode?! 22:59:22 olsner: Well, sort-of. It does a far jump, but into the "same" 16-bit code segment. 22:59:43 cpressey, well, a 1,1 torus is legitimate enough, for reasons I'm unsure of. 23:00:46 I suppose there's also a tiling-based argument somewhere... 23:01:03 fizzie: hmm, weird, what's the point of doing it like that? 23:01:23 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:01:41 also, what's the difference between this new 16-bit code segment and the one inherited from real mode? 23:02:15 olsner: You need to do the far jump for the protected mode to actually get enabled; other than that, probably not much difference there. 23:03:08 olsner: Anyway, I guess it saves the need for a 32-bit code segment anywhere. It also doesn't bother with things like setting up ds/es/fs/gs in protected mode, since it jumps directly to long mode very soon after enabling protected mode. 23:04:18 I LIKE HOW OLSNER IS GOING TO DO THIS ALL FOR ME 23:04:24 olsner: Is your x86 manual set the AMD or Intel one? If the AMD one (Volume 2: System Programming), it's 14.8 "Long-Mode Initialization Example" I was pulling that stuff from. 23:05:18 aha, I'm reading AMD's document 24593 now, so I could just read this at the source instead of asking you :) 23:05:47 (It's a bit messy, since it has a pGDT64 pseudo-descriptor in there, but the later comments say it's not exactly needed; and it doesn't show what actually is at gdt32_base.) 23:06:13 fizzie explains it, I write the code, elliott uses it :D 23:06:34 and then in a week or so i'm going to try writing something that goes into protected mode and we'll all go through all this AGAIN 23:06:42 olsner: I totally write code too! Except my bits are the ones that don't work until you figure out what's wrong with them. 23:06:47 cpressey: NO DUDE LONG MODE 23:06:55 I"M NOT READY FOR THAT 23:06:55 it's like protected mode but you have an aneurysm 23:07:03 cpressey: LET ME SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU 23:07:06 cpressey: EIGHT MORE FUCKING REGISTERS 23:07:10 NO STUPID SEGMENTATION BULLSHIT 23:07:14 Eight more registers! EIGHT! 23:07:20 AND TWICE THE BITS PER REGISTER!!! 23:07:26 That's 15 general-purpose 64-bit registers! 23:07:31 AND ANOTHER STACK!!!!! 23:07:31 Suddenly X86 ISN'T SO SHITTY ANYMORE 23:07:39 AND MY AXE 23:07:56 it's the glazing on the turd 23:08:18 I wonder how many systems there are that actually support long mode, but not "fast A20" 23:08:26 are manufacturers really so weird? 23:08:35 cpressey: Just use the BIOS to do it :P 23:08:44 cpressey: You can disable Fast A20 in the BIOS sometimes. 23:08:46 Inexplicably. 23:08:49 i fully plan to, that's what the BIOS is *for* 23:08:52 Sometimes it's disabled by default. 23:09:56 Anyway, when it comes to the 64-bit GDT: it needs to have a TSS descriptor (for the single 64-bit task there can be), as many code descriptors as you wish (they still exist, though mostly just to determine if code's running in 64-bit mode or the 32-bit compatibility-mode-in-long-mode), and any data-segment descriptors needed by 32-bit code. (In 64-bit code, ds/es/ss values are ignored; for fs/gs it's.. complicated.) 23:13:09 and this TSS thing is what you use to leave kernel mode and run in user mode for a while? 23:13:23 In 64-bit mode, it seems that it ignores pretty much everything in the descriptors except a few flag bits; I guess that's what they mean with the comment in the example that you don't necessarily need to set up a different GDT, they're compatible enough. 23:15:40 i.e. as long as you're not retarded and set non-0 offsets or non-4G limits you can use the exact same segment descriptors for both modes? 23:16:09 olsner: It doesn't even matter if you set non-0 offsets or fancy limits, they're ignored in 64-bit code. 23:16:53 they should have a segment retardation fault or something for it instead :) 23:17:05 So how does all this fit in with a higher half kernel? 23:17:07 Just askin' 23:17:12 :P 23:17:16 I really don't know about the TSS; "Although the hardware task-switching mechanism is not supported in long mode, a 64-bit task state segment (TSS) must still exist. System software must create at least one 64-bit TSS for use after activating long mode, and it must execute the LTR instruction, in 64-bit mode, to load the TR register with a pointer to the 64-bit TSS that serves both 64-bit-mode programs and compatibility-mode programs." 23:17:44 elliott: what does "higher half" mean? 23:18:36 proximal end? 23:18:49 I think for that you just need to mostly set the paging tables properly. I profess to complete ignorance on the privilege level changes: it seems to be a whole other esoteric mess of call gates, interrupt gates and trap gates. 23:18:59 olsner: http://wiki.osdev.org/Higher_Half_Kernel 23:19:01 It is traditional and generally good to have your kernel mapped in every user process. Linux, for instance (and many other Unices) reside at the virtual addresses 0xC0000000 - 0xFFFFFFFF of every address space, leaving the range 0x00000000 - 0xBFFFFFFF for user code, data, stacks, libraries, etc. Kernels that have such design are said to be "in the higher half" by opposition to kernels that use lowest virtual addresses for themselves, and leave h 23:19:01 igher addresses for the applications. 23:19:22 http://wiki.osdev.org/Higher_Half_Kernel 23:19:27 If you don't want to enable paging right from the start, it is still possible to have your kernel appearing in the higher half. Tim Robinson's GDT Trick works by using segmentation to select an appropriate base for the code and data segments. Say you've loaded your kernel at 0x10000 and we want it to appear at 0xC0000000, then all we need to do is find a base _X_, such as _X_ + 0xC0000000 = 0x10000. The bootloader will then initialize the GDT wit 23:19:27 h cs.base = 0x40010000 = ds.base. This also means that special care must be taken for VRAM (video RAM) access, as 0xB8000 is now somewhere above 1GB. Either use a special 0-based additional data-segment or use 23:19:44 olsner: I seem to recall reading something about entering long mode while using that insane GDT trick. 23:19:52 http://wiki.osdev.org/Higher_Half_With_GDT 23:20:27 That doesn't sound like something that would work in long mode. 23:20:38 Given that GDT bases are ignored. 23:21:13 fizzie: You do that and *then* do it properly with paging in long mode. 23:21:24 Aw hell, I have no idea. I just parrot the wiki. 23:21:39 that page instantly makes me hate OS programming for some reason 23:21:42 Right, but it doesn't sound like it would help you anything assuming you want to get long mode done before jumping to the kernel. 23:22:03 I mean, as long as you don't actually jump into the kernel code, it doesn't really matter at what address it appears to be. 23:22:07 fizzie: Right. 23:22:14 fizzie: I realised that a second ago :) 23:22:31 Of course you might run out of bytes in your boot sector in setting up paging. :p 23:22:53 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 23:23:06 obviously you'd generate the page tables for the regions you need access to during startup 23:23:34 didn't look into the details, but the direct-to-long-mode page had something like that 23:24:14 i understand, now, why people like unreal mode 23:24:21 Paging in long mode is so simple, too: http://zem.fi/~fis/paging.png 23:25:11 Page frames, page tables, page directory tables, page directory pointer tables and finally the "page map level 4 table" on top. 23:26:11 Maybe you should just opt for not using virtual memory or privilege levels; who needs that sort of stuff anyway? 23:26:46 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 23:26:54 what, of course you must have proper kernel/user mode, memory protection and task switching 23:27:07 olsner: WHY 23:27:21 you just do! 23:27:23 To SAVE you from YOURSELF, of course. 23:27:30 Or BADLY BEHAVED CODE, anyway. 23:27:37 Doesn't matter in a lisp OS at least :) 23:27:44 In fact running everything in kernel mode is beneficial there. 23:28:14 oh, you're building a lisp os? :) 23:28:22 olsner: well -- maybe! :p 23:28:28 I'd like to get the freaking boot sector written first. 23:29:18 There's only ~1.59361 * 10^1228 boot sectors, anyway. 23:29:22 I just have to pick one! 23:32:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:37:08 I once designed a protected memory system for the Z80 (in hardware) 23:38:21 A clock would periodically reset the processor and switch the lower half of memory to a new bank 23:39:15 I forget exactly how, but the plan was to write a JMP to the address you were last executing, into the first few bytes of your task's bank, so you could continue executing 23:39:49 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:39:50 Maybe there was an interrupt issued just before the reset, then your code was supposed to do this then enable the reset 23:39:50 cpressey: wow. 23:40:05 cpressey: all that for protected memory :) 23:40:23 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 23:41:12 elliott: yes. also considering there is an "enhanced Z80" out there somewhere which basically does all this in a chip :) 23:41:57 The DS, which doesn't really do paging or have an MMU, still has a rudimentary "memory protection unit" thing that can define the access privileges (and caching behaviour) to was-it-8 mostly arbitrary ranges of physical addresses. 23:43:26 wtf, my boot loader/os project has a CVS dir that points to a cvsroot with a windows path 23:43:58 it is from 2002 though, I was younger then 23:44:47 `addquote it is from 2002 though, I was younger then 23:45:04 olsner: wait i just adapted code developed on windows and cvs? 23:45:06 i feel wrong 23:45:45 no, it can never have been developed on windows, the build script is very much unix 23:45:47 No output. 23:46:06 but it was *stored* on windows at some point 23:53:35 * elliott tries to decipher why his vga display fun isn't working 23:55:28 Cat + melodica = insane cat 23:58:44 Gregor: approve# 23:58:46 s/#$// 2010-11-02: 00:03:29 olsner: SO IS IT LONG YET 00:03:34 rabble rabble rabble 00:07:07 not very long yet, no 00:09:34 It's not the length of your general-purpose registers, it's how you use 'em. 00:09:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:11:43 And the label reads "General purpose register -- To be used for general purposes only" 00:13:05 (the "Enhanced Z80", ftr, is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zilog_Z80000) 00:13:23 32-bit! 00:13:47 Hm, not Z80-compatible, though. 00:13:57 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:14:03 There's the eZ80, too. 00:14:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:14:23 No on-chip MMU, but more address bits and so on. 00:20:41 Oh, and the Z180 has some sort of on-chip memory banking thing, but I don't know if you can (ab)use that for memory protection or not. 00:21:33 haha, long mode would change the behaviour of NOP to not be no-op, unless they gave it a special case 00:22:15 ("NOP" is actually xchg eax,eax - but 32-bit operations are supposed to clear the upper bits of the 64-bit register) 00:24:03 It is fucking *ridiculous* how much better video looks when you go and calibrate your monitor right. 00:24:09 Absolutely, positively fucking ridiculous. 00:25:06 pikhq, any websites that can help with that? 00:25:14 olsner: they do give it a special case :P 00:25:23 olsner: I think... 00:25:31 olsner: Say, does x86 actually have a specific nop instruction? 00:25:38 I remember seeing a page once... 00:25:45 elliott: yes, they special-case it 00:25:54 Sgeo: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/index.php 00:26:00 Well, it does have a specific NOP now. 00:26:15 It occurs to me that I have not the faintest idea how to adjust stuff on this thing 00:26:19 if you really want the swap-with-self-and-clear-upper-bits you have to use a different encoding of the same instruction 00:26:37 fizzie: I wonder if it was the Z180 I was thinking of... 00:26:39 I wouldn't be surprised if it's been special-cased for a while now. 00:28:08 How do I adjust contrast on a laptop? 00:28:14 Unlike the Z80,000, I can actually find units of Z180 for sale. 00:29:13 Good luck! 00:29:21 http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ZiLOG/Z8S18010PSG/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtp5ziQ9mm%252bAtzjy5qS0%252bme DIP-60 :) 00:29:22 Might Windows's built-in calibration stuff be any help? 00:29:28 I can disable what the OS does, right? 00:29:28 What's most important is getting your gamma set straight... 00:30:13 How do I get the monitor's menu on this thing? 00:30:35 The gamma correction should be in your OS. I *highly* doubt your monitor can help you. 00:30:49 That totally must be what I was thinking of, although fizzie is absolutely correct that it's not clear if the "MMU" actually protects memory, or just pages it. 00:31:06 Right now I'm looking at color calibration 00:31:18 "press the menu button for the display" 00:31:29 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:32:04 Oh, gamma doesn't require that 00:33:01 I DO NOT PLAY WIND INSTRUMENTS 00:33:03 * Gregor gasps for breath 00:34:18 Gregor: Fix that, you monster. 00:34:45 My dad's asking me to look for the best mp4 player 00:34:56 All I can think is VLC, but he's asking me to look for writeups 00:35:09 Does it even make sense for different players to have different qualities 00:35:10 Mplayer or VLC. 00:35:19 pikhq: I'm gasping for breath because I'm playing a melodica :P 00:35:22 Just like for every other video format. 00:35:30 pikhq: Specifically, I'm playing ZEE3 on a melodica. 00:35:36 Gregor: Nice. 00:35:43 While wearing a retainer because this mouthpiece is effing up my teeth X-D 00:36:37 Do different video players even play the same file at different video quality? That makes no sense to me 00:37:17 Some video players actually do suck ass at quality. 00:38:43 What matters is generally how it actually outputs to screen, though. Aside from a small handful of cases, they will all get the exact same raw video stream from a video. 00:39:00 (there's some players with *broken decoders*.) 00:40:02 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 00:40:26 My dad's asking me to look for the best mp4 player 00:40:26 All I can think is VLC, but he's asking me to look for writeups 00:40:29 ...so? That's ridiculous. 00:40:33 Tell him to take the suggestion or leave it. 00:40:53 He's satisfied knowing that I asked, I think 00:42:24 I wonder if anyone still maintains KDE 3. 00:43:33 The Trinity Desktop Environment project, organised and led by Timothy Pearson, Kubuntu release manager for KDE 3.5[9], has released Trinity to pick up where the KDE e.V. left. It is currently trying to keep the KDE 3.5 branch alive, attempting to fix bugs during the process, enhance it with additional features and make it more compatible with recent hardware. 00:43:34 Yes. 00:43:42 This project aims to keep the KDE3.5 computing style alive, as well as polish off any rough edges that were present as of KDE 3.5.10. Along the way, new useful features will be added to keep the environment up-to-date. 00:43:45 http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/ 00:44:01 And it's in Debian! 00:45:00 pikhq: Not quite. 00:45:06 It's a separate repository. 00:45:15 Aaaw. 00:45:20 Ah well. 00:45:34 Bit of an unfortunate name, what with the nuclear test. 00:45:36 pikhq: http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/pub/Documentation/Releases_3_5_12/sm_kde3_5_maverick_livecd_konqueror.png 00:47:31 What's so bad about KDE4? 00:47:38 And is anyone keeping KDE2 alive? 00:47:45 -!- augur has joined. 00:47:57 Is KDE4 the Vista of KDE or something? 00:47:58 Sgeo: The UI. The fact that it lost all the wonderful customizability of KDE3 while gaining ... retard OS-X-Vista-ness. 00:47:58 Everything is bad about KDE 4. 00:48:10 KDE4 is why I switched to XFCE. 00:48:18 Gregor: The customisability hasn't been lost that much. But the applications are terrible. 00:48:28 Sgeo: The backend libraries of KDE4 seem decent. But the UI is terrible. 00:48:31 elliott: Do I have to get my LCARS screenshot out :P 00:48:37 I could vaguely -- sort of -- understand KDE users in the days of 3. 00:48:47 Now everyone who uses KDE is just an idiot and I don't talk to them. :P 00:49:20 Gregor: *KDE SC 4 00:49:23 It's a software compilation now! 00:49:25 KDE 3 was usable. It took tweaking to get it nice, but it was *usable*. 00:49:36 "October 30, 2007 (The INTERNET)." -- KDE press release 00:49:42 KDE 4... It's damned near impossible to tell it to stop sucking. 00:49:43 WE COME FROM THE INTERNETS 00:50:32 "The observers set up betting pools on the results of the test. Predictions ranged from zero (a complete dud) to 18 kilotons of TNT (predicted by physicist I. I. Rabi, who won the bet[24]), to destruction of the state of New Mexico, to ignition of the atmosphere and incineration of the entire planet." -- [[Trinity (nuclear test)]] 00:50:37 Cheerful betting pool. 00:50:52 "I'm gonna go with 'what we've done here will cause New Mexico to cease to exist'." 00:51:08 I wonder who expected to cash in on the planetary incineration bet 00:51:23 -!- Mathnerd314 has left (?). 00:51:23 Jesus. 00:51:36 aka Richard Feynman 00:52:34 Wonder what they though the reaction (ignition of atmosphere) would be... 00:52:46 Ilari: Bad. 00:52:52 Obiviously something exotermic... 00:52:59 Hard to claim your part of the pool when you bet the world would be destroyed :P 00:53:45 maybe if it destroyed new mexico and more than 50% of the rest of the world, but not the part where you are 00:53:59 then you'd be closest but not correct 00:54:06 * Sgeo would say that that's worse than Hitler 00:54:11 Assuming you weren't there when it happened :P 00:54:18 GODWIN'S LAW HAS BEEN INVOKED 00:54:20 Sgeo: "Destroying the planet is worse than what Hitler did. 00:54:21 Conversation over 00:54:21 *did." 00:54:23 OMG REALLY 00:54:29 Hitler, like, DESTROYED ANDROMEDA 00:54:30 Didn't he? 00:54:40 OH WAIT NO he just killed a few million people. 00:56:27 * Sgeo performs CPR on the conversation 00:57:29 I wonder what's in all these reserved control registers in x86 00:58:03 you can use 0,2,3,4,8 but 1, 5-7 and 9-15 are reserved 00:58:25 Uh.. CR8? Never heard about it before... 00:59:13 it's the task priority register 01:04:46 -!- Gregor has changed nick to window. 01:08:41 -!- window has changed nick to Gregor. 01:11:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:35:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:49:54 olsner: you're allowed to use them? Awesome. 01:49:58 More general-purpose registers! 01:50:05 oh, wait 01:50:08 allowed to use them for their purpose 01:50:15 rather than not being allowed to use them at all 01:50:38 yes 01:50:42 js> ({}).constructor 01:50:45 Err 01:51:37 Gregor types out his prompt when talking to a javascript console. 01:51:52 Yup 01:52:01 perhaps Gregor plays both parts 01:52:26 olsner: Oh, I PLAY both PARTS *WINK WINK* 01:52:37 What Gregor is saying is: sex. 01:52:53 pikhq: You know OSSv4? 01:53:02 elliott: What about it? 01:53:22 pikhq: I've remembered why I have a bad taste in my mouth about it. 01:54:08 Oh?\ 01:54:14 pikhq: They funded XMMS development for quite a few years and owned the domain xmms.org, which the XMMS project used. Indeed, it was used in the present day, I think it had the XMMS2 site on it, and many XMMS developers used it for email and personal webspace. 01:54:20 * Sgeo attempts to determine if he needs to bring photo ID tomorrow 01:54:25 pikhq: Then 4Front Technologies, developers of OSS, decided to sell it. 01:54:28 pikhq: To a cybersquatter. 01:54:31 pikhq: Without asking the XMMS team. 01:54:38 pikhq: They then emailed the XMMS team asking for a webpage dump. 01:54:44 pikhq: http://tobias.hieta.se/2010/04/28/what-ever-happened-to-xmms-org/ for the full, gory story. 01:55:17 oO 01:55:19 *o.O 01:55:29 There's been debates about whether it's ok to require photo ID 01:55:46 Sgeo: To... where? 01:55:59 for voting 01:56:40 In NY 01:56:45 Found something about Minnesota 01:56:55 elliott: wtf 01:56:59 Sgeo: I am pretty sure they have no constitutional right to demand photo ID... 01:57:02 elliott: The fuck. 01:57:11 elliott: Doesn't stop them. 01:57:46 So Sgeo I take it you are voting for the Republicans 01:57:58 elliott, I know you're joking 01:58:04 No I'm not 01:58:09 Aren't you?! 01:58:23 You're in your "try to confuse Sgeo" mode 01:58:27 elliott: You'd have to be braindead to vote for them. 01:58:52 Sgeo: So, wait. You're *not* voting for the Republicans? 01:59:09 I'm not voting straight party whatever, though. Just in regards to people who I know about. Which turns out leaving me supporting all Democrats this election 01:59:27 Hey I guessed right. 01:59:33 Long live the two-party system! 01:59:35 Although I don't know as much about Peter King's opponent as I'd like to 01:59:39 hahaha 02:00:05 All I know is that Mr. King voted against HCR 02:01:21 US health care reform: Because if you don't look to closely, it sort of resembles single-payer health care! 02:02:13 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 02:02:15 As far as I'm aware, it's mostly regulations on what insurance companies can and cannot do 02:02:24 Yup. 02:02:40 Plus *fines* for not having insurance, unless I'm grossly mistaken. 02:02:53 Which, y'know, is sort of *entirely great* for the *horrible insurance companies*. 02:03:20 elliott: On the other hand, the bastards can't drop anybody. 02:03:37 And all of this is entirely stupid because you guys could *just have single-payer*. 02:03:42 Aren't the fines cheaper than insurance...? 02:03:45 Still, bit of an ineffectual "reform". 02:04:04 And yet, it's easy to see why it is how it is. 02:04:24 People think that *this* was somehow going to send people to the gas chambers. 02:04:26 Sgeo: ...and? 02:04:29 And those morons vote. 02:04:34 Killing the entire insurance industry outright wouldn't be good. 02:04:38 Making the fines essentially worthless 02:04:38 Gregor: Yes it would. 02:04:53 I'm not talking about good for healthcare. 02:05:01 I'm talking about good for the economy, good for jobs. 02:05:14 Which, as we all know, are more important than healthcare. 02:05:22 Gregor: It's a massive economic inefficiency, y'know. 02:05:43 pikhq: And a massive economic sinkhole would be better? 02:05:54 I'm not claiming we can't do anything, I'm claiming anything we do needs to be gradual. 02:05:55 Gregor: That's what we *have*. 02:06:09 -!- catseye has joined. 02:06:09 Gregor: We dump money in there that goes to kill people. 02:06:46 pikhq: Yes. But it's money that goes SOMEWHERE. As opposed to cutting off the industry outright and watching thousands of employed people flail. 02:06:56 Currently-employed, that is 02:07:40 The US is so fucked up that we have a choice between killing people with massive megacorporations and killing people with unemployment. 02:07:47 I suppose if the Democrats regain power, they're not going to bother fixing the fix of healthcare? 02:07:57 elliott: Yes. Exactly. 02:07:57 Because, in the US, unemployment equals death. Did I mention we're fucked up? 02:08:15 Sgeo: Uhh, they're the ones who wanted it so... no. 02:08:15 Wait 02:08:19 elliott: Clearly what I'm arguing is to do nothing whatsoever. 02:08:21 Sgeo: Which is an improvement over the Republicans, who intend to repeal the fix and then go under a witch hunt. 02:08:22 elliott: I mean obviously. 02:08:27 Gregor: Yes. Clearly. 02:08:27 elliott: There's nothing else I could be arguing here at all. 02:08:33 Gregor: I don't disagree :) 02:08:36 Sgeo: You do realise the Democrats are only *slightly* to the left of the Republicans? 02:08:51 I am continually amazed that Americans actually buy in to the two-party thing. 02:08:53 Gregor: How's about a 10 or 20 year migration to a public health system? 02:09:00 pikhq: That makes sense. 02:09:06 Or how's about this? 02:09:06 Preferably closer to 10. 02:09:17 Gradually but not slowly extend Medicare to cover pretty much everyone. 02:09:23 Exactly! 02:09:26 Insurance companies go "but with us, you get NICER coverage!". 02:09:29 They survive because of idiots. 02:09:31 elliott: That's the easiest way to do it, yes. 02:09:34 Then extend Medicare to everyone in one go. 02:09:35 I think it might be possible that the broken fix might be WORSE than no fix 02:09:37 Yes, perfect. 02:09:43 Sgeo: It isn't. 02:09:44 Insurance companies cry, shrivel up, and die, but only after stagnating over the previous few years. 02:09:48 OMG CAN I BE PRESIDENT NOW 02:09:57 Exactly what's happening to the music industry :P 02:10:02 Sgeo: At least now the insurance companies can't drop you because you became too expensive. 02:10:10 Gregor: ...what's music medicare? X-D 02:10:19 elliott: The Pirate Bay 02:10:33 Gregor: The Pirate Bay hasn't worked in ages :P 02:10:49 Sure, you can search, but their tracker is down and OpenBittorrent never has any peers. 02:11:01 They're great for getting .torrent files from torrentz.com, though! 02:11:26 OK, I'll change my answer to "torrents" then X_X 02:11:37 Gregor: lawl 02:11:41 pikhq: By the way: http://www.devmazumdar.com/ 02:11:45 elliott: Yeah, but you can just generate magnet links from there. 02:12:05 "As a gesture of gratitude for his long-lasting generosity (he “invested a lot of money in XMMS.org”, after all), we will be hosting the XMMS project on DEVMAZUMDAR.COM from now on. 02:12:05 Thank you so much for everything, Dev." 02:12:23 There will be people who delay getting insurance until they need it, due to ineffectual fines, which raises prices. What good is insurance that covers any expense if no one can pay for the insurance? (Note: I am not an economist, nor do I know to what extent prices would rise) 02:12:35 elliott: :) 02:12:52 "I also bought up zinf.org for the same reason. I want to use either or both of these brands to make a new media player that leads the market not follows. I know there are other projects out there but we can re-invent xmms." 02:13:00 Dammit people, I bought your domain! Drop XMMS2 NOW and make my perfect media player! 02:13:31 Sgeo: BTW, it's actually a tax that you don't have to pay if you have insurance... 02:13:32 Sgeo: Health insurance companies are more in the "wtf" category than the "economics" category. 02:13:41 Since demand for healthcare is, uh, *infinite*. 02:14:13 That site claims there's no guarantee that xmms.org downloads don't contain malware 02:14:14 Sgeo: And anyways, healthcare is one of those things that just plain does not function at all under free market conditions. 02:14:38 Sgeo: There is no such guarantee, since a cybersquatter owns it. 02:14:58 ...according to this devmazumdar person, or according to reality? 02:15:00 olsner: i should totally write my OS in Literate Assembly. 02:15:06 Sgeo: devmazumdar does not own devmazumdar.com. 02:15:12 Sgeo: Try READING the TEXT on the PAGE with your EYES. 02:15:23 elliott: you should totally do that 02:15:35 ... 02:15:42 Sgeo: Our dear friend Dev Mazumdar, from 4Front Technologies, sold our XMMS.ORG domain without asking the XMMS community. 02:15:43 How do you determine which is real and which is lying? 02:15:44 As a gesture of gratitude for his long-lasting generosity (he “invested a lot of money in XMMS.org”, after all), we will be hosting the XMMS project on DEVMAZUMDAR.COM from now on. 02:15:44 Thank you so much for everything, Dev. 02:15:45 The XMMS team 02:15:57 Sgeo: Considering that message is from the *XMMS team* and is also on their *official blog* 02:16:01 you'd have to be a moron to believe the cybersquatter. 02:16:06 olsner: so have you got long mode working yet EH 02:16:16 Link to blog? 02:16:54 RTF Log 02:17:57 elliott: no, I'm still leisurely reading the manual 02:18:31 olsner: fun, is it? 02:18:38 probably would've gotten it done without knowing what I was really doing by now, but ehm, that'd be less fun 02:19:14 unfortunately the example seems to be right at the end of the manual, like 400 pages away 02:19:25 olsner: lawl 02:19:28 GOD FORBID I just skip to it 02:22:59 the manual keeps luring me into reading about task switching and stuff, which isn't strictly required to get into long mode and write some data to vga memory 02:27:14 http://www.posix.nl/linuxassembly/nasmdochtml/nasmdoca.html omg this is the best x86 reference ever 02:29:10 olsner: i so totally want to write it in literate asm but, lack of tools 02:29:45 you don't have sed installed? :D 02:30:42 olsner: uh, literate programming also involves rearranging code 02:30:47 olsner: also: emacs syntax highlighting, etc. 02:35:04 olsner: I might try it with noweb. 02:35:13 olsner: But really, I'd like to get into long mode first and I need YOU for that, slacker 02:37:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:37:45 * Sgeo breathes 02:37:51 Sgeo: I do that all the time. 02:42:25 Actually I don't think I like noweb, LaTeX isn't really ideal for what I'd like to use literate programming for. 02:42:28 Not hypertexty enough. 02:44:35 I'm not convinced about this literacy thing 02:45:10 tried to read tex once, I couldn't find the program for all the text 02:45:11 olsner: I'm not either, but it would be fun to have a literate bootloader. 02:45:19 olsner: oh, TeX's use is all very archaic 02:45:26 olsner: I mean, the Pascal doesn't compile on any modern Pascal compiler! 02:45:36 olsner: And WEB itself is basically only distributed with TeX distributions. 02:45:46 olsner: oh wait 02:45:49 I think it's safe to say that Factor does the opposite of literate programming 02:45:50 olsner: you mean you couldn't find the code snippets? 02:45:57 Code and documentation are in separate file 02:45:59 files 02:46:11 olsner: Well, you're not meant to :) 02:46:29 Of course literate programming is basically designed for one person to write and everyone else to read... 02:47:59 exactly, I couldn't find the code snippets in all the text... and I'm not meant to? huh? 02:48:53 olsner: You're meant to read the text, not skip past it. 02:49:14 olsner: It's a book that just happens to be executable. 02:50:59 elliott: IIRC, I just wanted to find the tex interpreter to figure out how the programming language in tex worked without accidentally learning any typography 02:51:17 olsner: Knuth doesn't want you to. It's an ego thing. :) 02:51:35 olsner: Of course one could always have the typography engine and the programming language in separate chapters. 03:00:07 olsner: huh, "xor x, x" is slower than "mov x, 0" now 03:00:09 why did nobody tell me? 03:01:32 mov is still longer since you end up with a 4-byte constant 03:02:23 ah 03:02:26 i'll keep using xor then 03:02:30 in my boot sector at least 03:02:37 also "inc x inc x" is shorter than "add x, 2" :) 03:02:46 didn't expect that one, but i guess it's obvious in retrospect 03:03:31 elliott: It actually depends on the CPU which one is shorter. 03:03:37 pikhq: x86 duh 03:03:38 elliott: Erm, faster. 03:03:42 right 03:03:48 well, in modern tymes mov x, 0 is faster 03:04:33 o.O' 03:04:42 pikhq: ? 03:04:50 It's because Intel were like "lol xor is so rare, fuck that". 03:04:53 The UK only has 5 OTA analog TV stations possible in their system? 03:04:57 Oh. 03:05:03 pikhq: Um, no, I think we *could* have a sixth. 03:05:04 Or something. 03:05:12 pikhq: But the government went "okay, that's it" after the fifth. 03:05:23 pikhq: And a lot of people still can't pick up Five. :) 03:05:30 Analogue, that is. 03:05:45 Lol, they've renamed it back to Channel 5. 03:05:57 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:06:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:06:52 pikhq: QUICK WHAT SHOULD I CALL MY TEENY TINY LISP INTERPRETER 03:06:56 STIGMATISM, SIBILANT OR INTERDENTAL 03:07:31 How about IHEARTBRACKETS 03:07:40 elliott: The North American analog assignment currently allows for about 30 stations. 03:07:46 Gregor: *PARENTHESES 03:07:48 elliott: Used to allow for 45 or so. 03:07:51 pikhq: Yeah but you guys are retarded. 03:08:07 elliott: I call them parentheses, I thought you guys called them brackets X-P 03:08:30 Gregor: () parentheses, [] brackets, {} braces, <> angle brackets 03:08:43 Gregor: It is the only terminology I accept. :) 03:08:59 Gregor: [] can also be referred to as "square brackets" to disambiguate. 03:09:03 elliott: I call them "curly braces" in spite of their being no other braces, but otherwise that's what I use :P 03:09:14 Well, right, that too. 03:09:30 But if I'm talking quickly or whatever, I'd truncate square/curly. 03:09:56 pikhq: OMG I should totally make my Lisp run on the bare metal. 03:10:02 Bcuz that's HARDCORE. 03:12:14 curly brackets 03:12:42 elliott: Seriously though, 6 stations being *at all possible*? 03:12:48 pikhq: I think there's more... 03:12:57 elliott: What, do you have gigahertz allocations? 03:12:58 Gregor: This was captioned "Tiny Core Linux 2.9": http://www.desktoplinux.com/files/misc/tinycorelinux_v29.jpg 03:13:03 pikhq: I don't think so :P 03:13:09 pikhq: But I think there could be more than 6. 03:13:31 elliott: ... wtf. 03:13:41 Gregor: You see, they're installing Tiny Core Linux from Windows! 03:13:50 To be fair, a real screenshot followed, captioned "Tiny Core Linux 2.4.1 Yep, it's minimalist.". 03:13:57 BUT STILL 03:13:59 elliott: ... wtf. 03:15:05 olsner: I NEED LONG MODE FOR MY LISPING 03:18:25 HOT SEXY SEX BITS 03:18:27 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/sex_byte_determination.png 03:19:27 `addquote HOT SEXY SEX BITS 03:19:37 252| HOT SEXY SEX BITS 03:19:45 elliott: Doesn't seem like it. 03:19:58 pikhq: You thought it was five before I said no :P 03:21:08 There's only one sex byte there, it's the byte that's 01 on the top and 37 on the bottom 03:21:23 But the sex byte is repeated a multitude of times throughout the files 03:22:26 elliott: Aaah, PAL-I has significantly more *possible* but the bandwidth allocation is such that you can't squeeze more than 6 in. 03:25:06 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/ten_crea_sex_bytes_and_much_more_to_go.png At the point shown in the file, I had found 10 sex bytes 03:26:17 say, hypothetically, that i wanted to code in the microcode that underlies the x86 code on a modern machine. what would i have to go through to do that? 03:26:18 has Sgeo actually managed to be nostalgic about himself? 03:26:26 catseye: you can't -- it's read-only 03:26:39 catseye: also, afaik, not public 03:26:40 elliott: hy-po-thetickly 03:27:03 get a job at intel, huh 03:27:08 hmm wait 03:27:08 Linux and FreeBSD(on x86 PCs) have a patch program that fixes botched CPU microcode. Of all UNIX (and UNIX-like) operating systems on Intel (and Intel x86-compatible) PCs there has been an ongoing requirement to patch erroneous microcode since the FPU multiplier problem that was endemic to some Pentiums. 03:27:15 Several Intel CPUs in the IA32 architecture family have writable microcode.[10] This has allowed bugs in the Intel Core 2 microcode and Intel Xeon microcode to be fixed in software, rather than requiring the entire chip to be replaced. Such fixes can be installed by Linux,[11] FreeBSD[12] Microsoft Windows,[13] or the motherboard BIOS.[14] 03:27:23 catseye: http://www.intel.com/Assets/PDF/manual/253668.pdf 03:27:24 have fun 03:27:34 if you can patch you YOU CAN CODE IN IT 03:27:35 enjoy fucking up your cpu 03:27:39 HWWWWEEEEE 03:29:10 hm, i need to build a pdf reader here don't i 03:30:20 catseye: evince is very nice. 03:30:34 epdfview or whatever it is is really shit 03:30:40 evince is worth the few gnome dependencies :) 03:30:48 catseye: or: XPDF!!11 03:31:04 http://z15.invisionfree.com/CC_Developers/index.php?showtopic=8 03:31:07 That's my code 03:31:20 (for the "Anyway, this is the script for the robot toy norn") 03:31:28 Well, except the stuff I may have borrowed myself 03:32:17 Which is probably everything but the first three lines, the born, and the vocb 03:32:25 sure thing, Grendel Man 03:32:39 Oh, probably duplicating the physics stuff from the robot toy 03:32:42 I am not Grendel man 03:32:47 he copied my code 03:32:55 I don't think he claimed it as his own though 03:33:01 confused AND loving it 03:35:21 From that thread, Grendel Man made http://www.seeyou7.net/creatures/creatures3/breeds/grendelman/images/g-rainbowsharkling.html 03:35:45 "This will cause problems with the GUI and the Creature Selection Menu, so I included an agent by Sgeo that fixes this issue - or at least with DS." 03:36:39 hypothetically i would probably patch the sse instructions or something else i could, in theory at least, do without (make sure everything on the machine is built WITHOUT them, first) 03:36:43 OMG HE MENTIONED YOUR NAME'#5;46 03:36:56 catseye: yeah uh, everything uses sse nowadays 03:36:59 catseye: maybe the latest version of sse 03:37:09 elliott: well you can tell the compiler to not generate it, right? 03:37:13 catseye: yes, but... 03:37:16 catseye: I would overwrite the BCD instructions. 03:37:18 catseye: Nobody uses BCD. 03:37:29 that's also a good candidate, but there are fewer of them. 03:37:44 but i would only want to turn them into brainfuck anyway, so sure. 03:38:02 catseye: Surely you could assign unimplemented instructions? 03:38:07 I imagine it looks them up anyway. At least some of them. 03:38:25 i don't know. possibly you could. 03:38:39 catseye: what about 6502 microcode 03:39:47 elliott: that seems less appealing somehow 03:39:58 6502's don't deserve having their brains rewired 03:39:58 catseye: you were meant to go "OMG 6502 HAD MICROCODE?" 03:40:00 which it doesn't 03:40:47 Y'know, I'm convinced that the bastards who designed analog TV were, well, bastards. 03:41:04 Why couldn't they have made everything simpler and just had 24 fps content go over the air? 03:41:23 catseye: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSE4a#SSE4a 03:41:32 five AMD-only instructions you could maybe reassign on your intel processor 03:42:17 dunno 03:43:11 Just... 24 fps progressive video. As already existed in large quantities. 03:43:44 Has anyone gone through their day without a single crazy music video advertising a long-awaited Lisp book? 03:43:51 I will now fix that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM1Zb3xmvMc 03:49:35 elliott: I am now enabling paging in long mode and it fails when trying to read the next instruction (the page is not in the page tables) 03:49:53 olsner: hmm 03:49:58 olsner: even if the next one is an appropriate jump? 03:50:05 also, simple solution: add it to the page tables! 03:50:35 it's *supposed* to be in the page table, obviously 03:50:48 olsner: WELL FIX IT DUH 03:50:55 olsner: have you tried copying their example code more directly? :P 03:56:30 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 03:56:50 olsner: haha, oh boy; if my kernel gets bigger than 512k/1 meg or so, my bootloader will have to load it in unreal mode 03:56:53 just splendid 03:57:26 Dear laptop battery: Fuck you in the ... thingies 03:57:44 Sgeo_: GENITALIA 03:58:03 I was trying to think of the names of the + and - 03:58:09 terminals? electrodes? 03:58:27 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:04:47 olsner: i take it it works perfectly now 04:05:05 Ugh... How many different *NAMEs DNS has? CNAME, DNAME, ZNAME? Oh and apparently there's proposals for BNAME... 04:05:17 FNAME! 04:05:31 (note: not real) 04:12:48 Ah, there are only CNAME and DNAME. ZNAME is also a proposal... 04:15:11 DNAME? 04:15:18 ZNAME 04:15:20 BNAME? 04:15:27 * Sgeo_ kind of knows what CNAME is 04:15:29 Sort of 04:15:33 http://www.codlug.info/files/u1/gnome1_0.jpg GNOME 1 -- it's what plants crave! 04:16:19 catseye: damn your BSD-usingness, I am becoming less and less convinced that advanced package managers matter. 04:34:00 elliott: long mode achieved 04:34:14 olsner: awesome! GIMME CODE 04:36:05 olsner: haha, my bootloader is going to start in real mode, go into protected mode, go into unreal mode, go into protected mode, and then go into long mode 04:36:22 olsner: protected to get to unreal, unreal so i can load a >1 meg kernel, protected to get to long, and long to run the kernel 04:45:04 -!- Decarabia has quit (Read error: No route to host). 04:45:27 -!- wareya_ has joined. 04:48:39 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:49:20 -!- Decarabia has joined. 05:01:03 -!- augur has joined. 05:01:07 olsner has figured out that if he doesn't give me code, i am powerless 05:01:21 elliott: so does the loading work again yet? 05:01:26 catseye: yes 05:01:37 am i interested in what the problem was? 05:01:40 elliott: http://gist.github.com/657234 05:02:07 catseye: i'm stupid and olsner isn't 05:02:17 catseye: some stupid parameter to the call 05:02:22 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:03:07 hmm, it's really QUITE late now 05:04:22 olsner: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 05:04:26 but what if i get 05:04:27 BUGS 05:04:30 happy code stealing and good night :) 05:04:46 elliott: just ... figure it out :) 05:05:21 olsner: PAH! 05:08:32 -!- augur has joined. 05:09:24 elliott: surely you mean: PAE! 05:09:34 catseye: i'm tired shut up :| 05:09:37 but yes 05:09:37 yes 05:09:38 certainly 05:11:22 ERROR: This package has set PKG_FAIL_REASON: 05:11:22 ERROR: openmotif-2.3.1nb4 has an unacceptable license condition: 05:11:23 ERROR: openmotif-license 05:11:38 DEAR PACKAGE YOUR LICENSE IS IN ERROR 05:12:16 gah! 05:12:19 it's GPL v2! 05:12:26 oh no wait 05:12:50 catseye: package managers; who neds em 05:13:49 is what i'm thinking right now, certainly 05:13:55 saving me legally from myself 05:14:30 catseye: herz what im thinkin, in tired-shorthand; 05:14:46 catseye: /usr/src. ok. buncha directories inside, dey pkgs. 05:15:24 catseye: makefile. "all" rule, depend on like the-software-version/{configure,Makefile}, and dey just call dose. rul for dose configure and makefile, is, we download software tarball from internet, and unpack. 05:15:42 catseye: and der a download-binary target, which does same for binary tarball which has makefile that install and etc. 05:15:45 catseye: therefore win 05:16:03 pkgsrc+bin 05:16:46 you know, as long as you can cleanly remove what you install, i don't care about the rest 05:18:31 catseye: oh yaeh make uninstall target. 05:18:42 catseye: with bianry package all this is much simpler 05:18:48 install: tar xf, run shell script 05:18:59 uninstall: remove all non-config files from some manifest, run shell script 05:19:08 catseye: then we just plug that into a ports-style autocompile system 05:23:48 -!- evincar has joined. 05:24:36 evincar: ah! the frontispiece! 05:24:39 Ni hao, shijie. 05:24:58 elliott: Beg coming your pardon? 05:25:04 Again! 05:25:07 evincar: CRETAN 05:25:09 Left out a word. 05:25:15 thou art'st'st'st'st's't'st'st'st; unbulate 05:25:27 track the pititulancers oft'x blaeæit; 05:25:34 triuek th'vrandermoore 05:25:44 upön talyisemens 05:25:49 kast'shure. 05:25:56 Are you writing in some esolang we don't know yet? :P 05:26:17 evincar: VERILY! crite understambulaters, 05:26:21 as they wuld, 05:26:32 creese down t'tirednes wht'sgrinnin' 05:26:43 So how was your weekend? 05:27:42 wiktended 05:29:03 So I'm starting a site some folk on here might find interesting and useful. 05:29:44 I have to do a final project for my Web Design class, and I figured it would be more beneficial to myself and mankind to make something other than a personal page that'll rot on the school server. 05:30:25 Anyway, it's a site for vote-based advertisement of new open-source projects, so small developers can gain exposure. 05:31:32 too practical, lame! 05:31:37 You get an icon, a URL, and a Twitter-sized description. You can upvote or downvote projects. Receiving a downvote loses you points, and giving one loses you a few fewer. Receiving upvotes on your project or your userpage gives you points. 05:32:02 hmm. 05:32:13 Projects and users are ranked by newest, most popular, and "hottest", that is, both new and popular. 05:32:58 There's nothing quite like it out there. 05:33:05 So I think I have a good niche. 05:33:05 i think there is a reddit for that. 05:33:39 evincar: i can't think i'd ever browse it -- it sounds like a site of ads, admittedly user-controlled ads 05:34:04 it's not a good idea to go out in search of software "just because". 05:34:15 software should be built to serve a use and people who want that use should use the software. 05:34:25 i am not sure i approve of the idea of showcasing software just because it exists. 05:34:34 it's the kind of thing i expect from commercial software 05:35:09 Right, but if you want people to work on your software with you, but aren't established yet, what do you do? Sourceforge and freshmeat and even slightly smaller sites such as Google Code and github aren't geared toward exposure for new projects. 05:35:12 You don't approve of showcasing PSOX? 05:35:37 * Sgeo_ finds a bridge to duck under 05:35:50 evincar: The kind of people who would read the site are, I feel, not the kind of people who would make good software contributors. 05:36:06 evincar: Also, contributing to software you don't have a need for is an exercise in half-assedness. 05:36:18 Better is to find a community or group of people with the need, and look for contributors there. 05:37:03 elliott: You can't say what sort of people would use the site until it's actually been run. (Never optimise without profiling?) And who says you'd contribute to software you don't have a need for? You'd contribute to software that interests you because you have a need for it. 05:37:32 evincar: then the software developer should ask for contributors on a relevant forum 05:37:37 Or even just see what the open-source community is up to and take a ride on the bleeding edge. 05:37:37 basically you're saying that the usecase is 05:37:45 programmer who has a need for X reads this site on a regular basis 05:37:51 just happens to see some software that does X 05:37:53 and decides to contribute 05:37:58 this sounds like a very contrived usage scenario. 05:38:02 Or even just see what the open-source community is up to and take a ride on the bleeding edge. 05:38:05 so software for software's sake. 05:38:41 Yes, and gaining exposure, promoting good new ideas. 05:38:45 i don't see how this is just about attracting contributors; users would also be part of the audience 05:38:52 software for software's sake is the reason software sucks 05:38:54 catseye: Right you are. 05:39:00 catseye: because users already have a way of finding software to meet need X 05:39:16 and it's called freshmeat, google, etc.; okay, they're not very *good*, but the basic model can be improved upon. 05:39:22 sometimes users don't know what their "needs" even are 05:39:23 this site would merely showcase new software 05:39:26 no one *needs* a game 05:39:32 catseye: ok, so have a site for games 05:39:47 that was just an example 05:39:54 catseye: what's your non-game example? 05:40:40 do i need one? 05:40:46 catseye: yes 05:40:51 because games are very different from other software 05:41:54 elliott: That's what tags are for. Let a folksonomy develop. 05:42:03 "folksonomy" please never use this word... 05:42:04 Also, I'm just doing this for school, as an experiment. If it takes off, bully. 05:42:08 evincar: ok, so it's basically freshmeat? 05:42:16 elliott: WEB 2.0 AJAX CLOUD 05:42:25 with a semi-pointless top list of all projects 05:42:28 sort of thing 05:43:05 * elliott yawns 05:43:13 Must. Stay. Awake. To. Normalise. Sleep. Schedule. 05:43:50 elliott: Yes, but with subtly different motivation and approach, and not targeted toward just "unix and cross-platform" software. 05:44:12 uhm i just saw a piece of software on freshmeat that was windows/os x only. 05:45:08 * elliott pumps more liquid sugar + caffeine into system 05:45:08 must 05:45:09 stay 05:45:09 awake 05:45:12 *blinks* 05:45:18 I blink a lot! 05:45:30 So...only Windows or OSX. That crosses two platforms, one of which is Unix-based. 05:45:39 ok so basically you want windows-only software too 05:45:43 or uhhhh HAIKU! 05:45:46 OS/2! 05:45:47 DOS! 05:46:40 It's more like Ohloh, except less like a wiki and more like Twitter. 05:46:56 And no, I'm not just trying to sound "Web 2.0" here. I think it's got it's place. 05:47:02 good luck on your project, evincar. hope you get a good grade 05:47:13 good night 05:47:16 catseye: i'm not trying to disparage his work or anything 05:47:16 catseye: Cheers, that's all I'm asking. 05:47:23 i'm just critiquing the idea from a standalone viewpoint 05:47:25 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:47:27 elliott: I realise that. I'm glad for the critique. 05:47:37 evincar: the thing you're missing, i think, is that twitter is a vast cloud of meaningless noise :) 05:47:48 evincar: what you have said sounds a *lot* more like reddit to me than twitter btw 05:47:59 Yes, but a *very active* vast cloud of meaningless noise. 05:48:04 evincar: i guess, you could say that what you want is the reddit to freshmeat's slashdot. 05:48:11 /ohloh 05:48:13 Hhgrrr. 05:48:13 is this accurate? 05:48:19 Parsing analogy... 05:48:31 evincar: freshmeat's descriptions of software are very long and it's "heavy-weight" 05:48:37 Right. 05:48:39 no user input as to the order of things on the front page 05:48:40 etc. 05:48:45 So, yeah, basically. 05:48:48 whereas you want short descriptions and user control 05:48:51 ok 05:48:53 Very user-driven, yes. 05:48:58 well, if you pull it off, it might be worthwhile 05:49:00 Centred around the idea of building a community. 05:49:02 i don't think i'll use it though :) 05:49:10 Hey, whatever. You'll know about it. 05:49:14 That's important, too. 05:49:21 but then, hey, i don't even like using most software that isn't mine 05:49:32 because i'm a cynical bastard and hate software 05:49:41 man what the hell am i going to be like when i'm 20 05:49:44 Oh, you have Not Invented Here Disorder? :P 05:49:48 elliott: How old are you? 05:49:48 *Syndrome 05:49:52 it's a syndrome! 05:49:58 evincar: 15 and sleepy. 05:50:02 (sleepiness is part of age, i swear) 05:50:17 I was trying to coin a new term. The Syndrome refers to a company doing it. :P 05:50:24 In addition to a person. 05:50:58 Well, I'm 19, and way less cynical than I was when I was 15. 05:51:03 evincar: I do have NIH but I also have a separate hatred of most software :) 05:51:12 Bring back Lisp machines! or don't, because they were flawed, but 05:51:16 sure as hell better than what we have today 05:51:26 thanks apple! thanks microsoft! thanks ib motherfuckin' m! 05:51:29 * elliott yawn 05:51:39 You're cheeky. How long've you been awake? 05:51:53 since uh 05:51:56 17:00 or so 05:51:58 maybe 17:30 05:52:03 And what time is it there now? 05:52:04 it is now 04:51 05:52:15 I plan to stay awake until 00:00 or so 05:52:20 I'm normalising! hahahaha yeah right 05:52:35 I was going to say "that's not so bad", but it's not not so bad. 05:52:45 But it's not *so* bad. 05:52:47 i should have gone to bed about, uh, now, but my probable sleeping disorder hates me 05:52:56 todo: melatonin 05:52:58 And your urge to drink caffeine. 05:53:08 evincar: in *this* case it's intentional 05:53:18 to stop me falling asleep before i want to 05:53:26 which would be disastrous 05:53:37 Well, it's just before 1:00 here, and I'm going strong since I woke up late today. 05:53:59 I'm not actually as tired as it seems. 05:54:09 And spent the rest of the day catching up on homework for the class I missed this morning. 05:54:10 I was a little while ago, but I've perked back up. 05:54:22 I intend to eat a damn good breakfast when it's morning to propel me through the day. 05:54:24 Porridge, perhaps. 05:54:41 I may take a run to the store and get an energy drink before it closes in an hour. 05:54:57 Not sure, though, since I have 7 hours of class ahead of me. 05:55:05 (related fun fact to a few lines ago -- melatonin is actually prescription only in the uk! can you believe that? if i cared about stupid laws like that, i'd need a *prescription* to legally own a hormone present in my own body at all times) 05:55:25 (Wow.) 05:55:37 australia too 05:55:44 in the us, it's not even a drug, it's a "dietary supplement" :) 05:55:50 And I'm a lightweight, so half your typical energy drink, plus plenty of water, is more than enough to keep me awake for an extra 24 hours. 05:56:02 evincar: yeah i should probably down one of those ridiculously unhealthy new "shot" energy drinks 05:56:15 that taste like blended batteries 05:56:21 round about now 05:56:24 but, have none! 05:56:40 my liver hates me 05:56:48 Well, US law has some issues with drug laws. If you label it as a "supplement" it doesn't need to be evaluated under the Food and Drug Administration's stringent pharmacological requirements. 05:56:57 "dos2unix $1 &> /dev/null && \ 05:56:57 unix2dos $1 &> /dev/null && \ 05:56:57 notepad $1 && \ 05:56:57 dos2unix $1 &> /dev/null &" 05:56:59 there are no words 05:57:11 So vitamins and homeopathic remedies are all labelled accordingly. 05:57:16 evincar: yeah, that's why melatonin is such too 05:57:28 I love the idea of FDA evaluating a natural hormone to see if it's safe. 05:57:52 "As melatonin has been determined unfit for pharmaceutical use, its production is now prohibited. Consequently, reproduction is now illegal." 05:58:25 Well, hormones aren't the worst things to mess with, but messing with them *is* messing with yourself. 05:59:15 evincar: well, yeah. low melatonin levels aren't uncommon though, and i found several studies a while back 05:59:20 one, in short term adult use -- no side effects at all 05:59:25 another, in *long term* *child* use -- no side effects at all 05:59:29 If I take growth hormones along with an exercise regime, I'll become far more bulky than I would just exercising normally. 05:59:47 and the side effects are "you get a headache and oversleep" 05:59:48 Right, melatonin in particular is benign. 05:59:49 of an overdose 05:59:54 so uh, i'd have trouble thinking of a scenario in which bad things would happen :) 05:59:57 yeah 06:00:04 Uh, miss an important event? 06:00:11 :P 06:00:20 That's so serious compared to, y'know, meth. 06:00:41 METH + MELATONIN 06:00:43 CRAZIEST SLEEP EVER 06:03:18 I dunno, I've had some pretty crazy sleep. 06:03:33 Then again, I'm all about fucking with the relationship between sleep, waking, madness, and death. 06:03:42 i am totally not about that 06:03:57 i do not like blurring the line between waking and death :) 06:03:58 Well, I'm fond of existential bullshit. It's a hobby. 06:04:05 i can tell 06:04:45 Sometime, if you get the chance, you ought to stay awake for a few days. It's a very interesting experience. 06:04:57 evincar: my max was about 40 hours 06:05:06 i almost physically collapsed 06:05:58 I think my record was pushing 70, which is still nothing compared to, say, the world record. 06:06:31 the world record probably ended in death 06:07:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Gardner_%28record_holder%29 06:07:12 Not so! And he was only 17. 06:07:24 oh man high school student 06:07:27 i hope it was in school term 06:08:02 [["I wanted to prove that bad things didn't happen if you went without sleep," said Gardner.]] 06:08:07 Guinness has officially stopped keeping records of things that are too dangerous for their legal department. :P 06:08:09 evincar: what a way to justify your all-nighters to your mother! 06:08:20 that's so why he did it 06:08:21 Well, he did end up hallucinating. 06:08:23 i refuse to accept any other explanation 06:08:30 In reality, the hallucinations are very much like dreams. 06:08:54 evincar: if you're experiencing them, it's probably microsleep 06:09:34 Probably, yes, but for all measurable purposes you're still awake. 06:10:07 evincar: not if you're driving 06:10:16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_rail_accident microsleeps were a factor in this 06:10:20 Oh god, by the way, NEVER do that. 06:10:39 what, drive? ok : 06:10:40 :P 06:10:46 Thanks 06:10:47 I have been falling asleep while driving, and it's...just not worth whatever you're driving for. 06:10:53 I was already scared of learning to drive 06:11:00 I don't have a good sleep cycle 06:11:08 microsleeps only happen after sleep deprivation 06:11:19 protip: if you're tired DON'T FUCKING DRIVE MORON 06:11:21 this goes for everone 06:11:23 *everyone 06:11:32 elliott, does sleeping for 5 hours or less a night count as sleep deprivation? 06:11:36 Also, I fully agree 06:11:39 Sgeo_: Driving is perfectly safe as long as you don't think about the fact that it's horrifically, phenomenally dangerous. 06:11:40 no 06:11:46 being awake for like 18 hours or more counts 06:11:58 evincar: i hate the road system etc. 06:12:17 But what if I plan a schedule around being able to drive, then fail to get enough sleep, and am tired, but can't do public transportation? 06:12:18 even this little town is built entirely around these ridiculously dangerous machines driven by people who get angry so easily 06:12:26 road rage is an indicator that driving is not good psychology... 06:12:29 *psychologically... 06:12:36 and they rule the town! 06:12:47 fuck people, let's just have them stand and wait for the lethal machines to slow down! 06:12:49 bah. 06:13:29 evincar: "and state that the Guinness World Records record is 449 hours (18 days, 17 hours) by Maureen Weston, of Peterborough, Cambridgeshire in April, 1977, in a rocking-chair marathon." 06:13:30 I'd say something about requiring the operators of the machines to be properly trained and certified, but that obviously doesn't work 06:13:35 BEST REASON TO STAY AWAKE EVER 06:13:37 I like bicycles. 06:13:38 Sgeo_: they sort of do that 06:13:46 bicycles are nice if you're into that kind of thing :) 06:13:52 I'm into a lot of things. 06:13:57 elliott, I know. And obviously people still do stupid things 06:14:01 evincar: What a modern, humane city should do is this: 06:14:02 Seriously, I'm interested in way too many things. 06:14:18 evincar: Build it for people walking around and bicycles. Roads go to the *side* of everything else, crossings should be kept to an absolute minimum. 06:14:23 STRICT policy of people taking priority. 06:14:27 That's why I said "that obviously doesn't work" 06:14:41 Ideally, let there be no clear road/people space boundary on the road areas: there is no place that cars "own". 06:14:47 People are there all the time, so drivers have to go slower. 06:14:57 And keep it away from anywhere where people live, because of the damn noise! 06:15:02 evincar: And then, to meet the needs of everyone: 06:15:15 Unless there are few people walking around at night, then drivers speed up, but there is one person walking there... 06:15:15 evincar: Very regular entrances into a fast, underground railway system. 06:15:25 evincar: Should never be more than five minutes away from a station. 06:15:28 Problem solved! 06:15:36 elliott: What you're describing is to be found in parts of India, I think. 06:15:47 Less the underground, not sure. 06:16:05 CLEAN, on the other hand... 06:16:25 City is free of noise pollution, you can walk around nicely, bicycles have lots of open space to ride in, people who really want to use cars to get into the city or whatever can go via the to-the-side roads, and inside the city, non-bicyclists who want to go a long distance can just hop on the tube. 06:17:12 microsleep can last for 30sec? 06:17:14 evincar: Oh, and of course, for inter-city transport, you have fast railways -- think Japan -- and also long motorways. 06:17:15 o.O 06:17:46 elliott: Brave New World. 06:17:54 elliott: Randy Gardner's not-sleeping was in the name of science. 06:18:04 evincar: Is that meant to be a rebuttal? 06:18:09 elliott: I hope he got an A for it. 06:18:19 pikhq: F for Fucking Insane. 06:18:29 elliott: It depends on whether you like socialism without free-market-driven progress. 06:19:16 evincar: Okay -- so basically you see something you consider evil socialism, and immediately reply "Gee, Huxley", with no apparent justification or meaning. 06:19:28 Is the invisible hand obscuring your vision? 06:20:54 elliott: No, I see something I consider good, beneficial socialism, and Immediately reply "Gee, Huxley", leaving it to you to provide your own justification as to whether you think it's a good thing or not, and relying on the self-evident meaning in invoking his work. 06:21:07 OK. 06:21:08 The way I read 06:21:09 elliott: It depends on whether you like socialism without free-market-driven progress. 06:21:10 was 06:21:14 "Fuck you, free markets!" 06:21:28 Hah, no. I meant it's only a rebuttal if you disagree with me. ^_^ 06:21:55 evincar: It's a very slippery-slope argument, to go from government-funded transport and city organisation to a futuristic, hedonistic dystopia. 06:22:12 I mean to use the book as a keyword for it. 06:22:26 evincar: Anyway, who said the railways weren't run by corporations? :) 06:22:56 I have this... thing, as a child, and still a little now, where if I didn't put my hand on my chest, I'd be worried about whether or not my heart's still beating 06:23:06 evincar: As for market-dictated city plannings... take a look at New York's power grid in the 1890s, on the left: http://www.loper-os.org/wp-content/wires.jpg 06:23:27 elliott: Maybe I don't consider hedonism inherently evil. I think the only problem with that world (other than those the book addresses, the loss of culture, etc.) is that a free market, or some form of competition is necessary for social progress because it provides the motivation for people to innovate. 06:23:42 I am very sceptical of the idea that unrestrained markets can develop all beneficial social institutions. :) 06:23:55 evincar: I approve of the idea of a market with competition; however, I do not approve of the idea of an unregulated one. 06:24:06 elliott: That's fair. 06:24:22 Sgeo_: I used to have something similar. I also didn't believe my heart beat while I slept. 06:24:30 Unregulated free-market capitalism is basically corporatism, sadly, and the political power of your dollar falls down after a corporation becomes big enough. 06:25:16 Free market supporters seem to say "well, corporations won't get big enough!" and then when all the instances of unregulated corporations get big enough are presented, they say "well, that market wasn't *totally* free" as if somehow, increasing the freedom of a market makes it more and more terrible until it's totally free, at which point it becomes perfect. 06:25:31 Your heart is now beating manually. 06:25:43 Sgeo_: It isn't, but I'm now breathing and blinking manually. 06:25:46 Which I am too tired to do! 06:26:44 evincar: I also think that absolute pure anarcho-capitalism is possibly the worst thing that could happen. 06:27:16 Because when you go that far down the rabbit hole, you start having to pay a corporate police force to protect you. And if they don't want to get involved and you die, well... who's gonna stop them? 06:27:39 elliott: I sort of resent the term "free" applied to the free market, because it *means* "free" as in "unrestricted", but it *implies* "free" as in "freedom", which proponents use to their subtle advantage in promoting it, as though a non-free market inherently bars people from their inalienable right to buy and sell shit in an unregulated fashion. 06:27:50 evincar: Fully agreed. 06:27:58 * Sgeo_ would love it if some form of anarchy could be made to work well 06:28:00 evincar: It is one of those loaded terms like "pro-life"/"pro-choice". 06:28:01 But I highly doubt it 06:28:18 Sgeo_: Chaos coalesces into order and might makes right. 06:28:22 Libertarianism is an interesting study, but I don't think it would work 06:28:26 Sgeo_: Anarchy could probably work with technology. 06:28:39 evincar, it's more that I hate centralization 06:28:42 Nobody's fully realised, yet, just how much the Internet change everything. 06:28:44 *changes 06:28:45 elliott: My jargon meter just went off. Care to elaborate? 06:28:52 evincar: To which line? 06:28:58 elliott: Both, actually. 06:29:14 elliott: in your specific example, however, if news got out that a police force was not providing protection, it would lose customers 06:29:20 or at least so the libertarian theory goes 06:29:20 Sgeo_: I recall someone saying "You'll be hailed as an innovator if you centralise everything that's decentralised, and decentralise everything that's centralised." 06:29:32 coppro: and what if the police force decided to club the valiant reporter to death? 06:29:39 That sounds Scott Adams-esque 06:29:43 Suddenly they're clubbing all their opponents to death, and they are the only one with power. 06:29:51 Guess what that is? 06:29:53 elliott: then the other police forces have to intervene 06:29:57 Totalitarianism. 06:30:00 but this shouldn't happen 06:30:01 coppro: This one happens to be the biggest. 06:30:04 So it wins. 06:30:06 because the police forces don't want to fight 06:30:19 elliott: There are enough so that no single one is big enough to take on the rest 06:30:20 coppro: Exactly -- so when one of their clients is about to get brutally murdered, they don't get involved. 06:30:31 coppro: Yes, I am not convinced there would be enough. 06:30:37 Also: Police fighting police would be interesting. 06:30:39 elliott: Neither am I 06:31:18 evincar: I am trying to find a little blog post I find explains my pipe-dream rather well. 06:31:28 elliott: But the idea goes that let's suppose police force A is about to kill police force B's client. 06:31:47 elliott: police force B tells police force A of this, and rather than fight, they settle it (ideally with an independent adjudicator) 06:31:55 evincar: http://r6.ca/blog/20050621T184100Z.html I don't agree with this entirely; direct democracy scares me. But it's an illustration, albeit incomplete and flawed, of how technology can change social structures... 06:32:03 that's where the system breaks down in my mind 06:32:21 coppro: right 06:32:21 insurace comapnies show that adjudication like that is dangerous 06:32:47 like governments, corporations are something everyone should innately distrust 06:32:50 elliott: Oh man, that funding rule 06:32:58 with anarcho-capitalism... this becomes more or less impossible 06:33:01 That rule nearly brought down the government in 2008 06:33:16 elliott: but I have inteded to raise the point with a libertarian friend 06:33:16 coppro: Are you pro or against? :) 06:33:28 (The funding rule; I know nothing of it.) 06:33:33 elliott: Undecided 06:33:43 the part that nearly brought down the government was that they tried to get rid of it 06:33:47 "Parties get funding related to the number of votes they get, and corporate donations have been all but eliminated." -- this, in its pure form, sounds wonderful to me. 06:33:52 and the opposition parties were like "no" 06:33:57 ah, yeah 06:34:01 that part is good 06:34:29 of course, they aren't gone entirely 06:34:44 and that's probably why the Cons wanted to repeal that provision - they are fans of corporations 06:35:01 err 06:35:02 yes 06:35:08 what I said is right 06:35:22 I don't think the rest is necessarily right 06:35:40 It will reduce the degree to which government decisions are made at arm's length from the population, hopefully 06:35:48 but they won'd be made solely by the people 06:35:55 coppro: As you are Canadian, I want to share another thing Russell O'Connor has done: 06:35:58 *won't 06:36:20 in other news, the Pirate Party approved our first official candidate today! 06:36:41 coppro: 06:36:41 http://r6.ca/blog/20040603T005300Z.html 06:36:42 http://r6.ca/blog/20060122T172700Z.html 06:36:42 http://r6.ca/blog/20060125T200600Z.html 06:36:42 http://r6.ca/blog/20060217T201200Z.html 06:36:42 http://r6.ca/blog/20081016T174811Z.html 06:36:43 http://r6.ca/blog/20081107T061447Z.html 06:36:46 ow 06:36:48 coppro: read from top to bottom (they're short) 06:36:51 they're short :P 06:36:59 oh man true timestamps 06:37:01 I am a fan 06:37:11 coppro: of course, as it says, the votes that the simulated elections are run with aren't accurate 06:37:15 coppro: since they include tactical votes 06:37:23 coppro: but in a stochastic system, tactical votes would not be beneficial at all 06:37:29 coppro: and so the votes made would be different and the outcome different 06:37:40 coppro: still -- the idea is *very* intriguing and as a Canadian you may find the results interesting :) 06:37:45 elliott: BUT WHAT ABOUT THE COMMUNIST PARTY 06:37:58 of course the probability of it ever being adopted is *zero* because stupid people don't understand probability 06:38:10 "TURN OUR ELECTIONS INTO A DICE ROLL?! YOU ANTI-DEMOCRATIC MONSTER!"" 06:38:13 *!" 06:38:19 but yeah, read those posts :) 06:39:32 elliott: interesting 06:39:41 especially in the context of Canada 06:39:52 where our governments have a surprisingly strong 'old boss same as new boss' tendency 06:40:04 yeah, you guys have a bit of a depressing political system 06:40:06 beats the usa though 06:40:27 coppro: don't you want to swap new and old there? :) 06:40:47 elliott: does it matter? 06:40:52 evincar: i like how since coppro's started talking it's changed from a mainly me and you conversation into a mainly me and coppro conversation 06:40:54 coppro: no, but it reads better :) 06:41:05 and actually, the strong consistency does have its benefits 06:41:08 namely, consistency 06:41:08 coppro: and as it is there it makes it look like you're going back in time 06:41:29 we also have a hell of a public service that typically the government listens to (except, apparently when it regards the census) 06:41:36 coppro: Whether the independent adjudicator is independent, corporate, or government, it still must exist. The system doesn't "break down" per se. 06:42:22 evincar: The problem is that the libertarian idea is removing a single point of failure 06:42:26 coppro: what public service are you referring to? tired :) 06:42:33 elliott: Canada's 06:42:39 coppro: i mean, which... i mean name 06:42:40 uh 06:42:44 my thoughts are becoming incoherent! \o/ 06:42:45 | 06:42:45 /'\ 06:42:49 coppro: btw, it's not the libertarian idea 06:42:50 elliott: uh, the public service? 06:42:55 ohhh i misparsed 06:42:57 it's the anarcho-capitalist idea 06:42:58 or ancap 06:43:07 libertarian is anarcho-capitalist with a police force and military :) 06:43:13 which is significantly difference 06:43:14 *different 06:43:17 no 06:43:19 as the government claims a monopoly on coercive force 06:43:31 but in any case 06:43:33 which is less dangerous (but still shitty for other reasons) 06:43:35 coppro: no to what? 06:43:41 elliott: The government *is* the bastion of coercive force, effectively. 06:43:49 yes, but -- 06:43:53 your assertion that libertarianism has a single police force and military 06:43:58 in an ancap situation, you have multiple competing police forces 06:44:00 IN ANY CASE 06:44:03 in a libertarian situation, you have one police force 06:44:12 coppro: it's true! that's what differentiates the two 06:44:16 libertarian has a minimal government 06:44:21 ancap is anarchy -- no government by definition 06:44:38 with multiple competing police forces, you can avoid conflict because it is not in the police forces' interest to have direct conflict 06:45:11 however, there will be a small number of police forces (let us suppose for the sake of the argument that the number of significant forces is at least in the tens, which, given human nature, is unlikely but possible) 06:45:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:45:45 elliott: I can actually see ancap working out if it had sufficient time to incubate before being subject to external influences. If they need to defend from invasion, they band together to do it and disband when it's over, on the principle that everyone does fine individually but everyone benefits from not getting royally fucked over by another country. 06:45:53 Initially, each police force might resolve differences with each other force differently 06:45:59 even aside from the unstable society 06:46:08 ancap would be inhumane 06:46:20 Can't find work in a, by definition, ridiculously competitive work environment? 06:46:22 YOU DIE! 06:46:29 Got cancer? FUCK YOU, PAY UP! 06:46:32 however, a single force would gravitate towards increasing efficiency and consistency by adopting a single system of dealing with other police forces 06:46:34 Can't afford food? Why not starve? 06:46:54 elliott: part of ancap relies on the existence of private philanthropists 06:46:58 (and no, charities can't just wish for donations and solve it all... when money is that important, how many people will give it up for others?) 06:47:06 elliott: Actually, it depends on what you consider "society". Sure, leadership and governance and that would all be ad-hoc and arbitrary. But the stability of a social situation depends largely on the morals of the people involved, and almost all people basically work under the principle "don't be a jerk". 06:47:10 coppro: sure... i don't think they'd be nearly common enough. 06:47:16 evincar: haha 06:47:21 elliott: If it became a social norm for rich people, it might 06:47:23 evincar: I would love to believe that people are fundamentally nice. 06:47:31 But no, sorry, selfishness takes over at some point. 06:47:45 but in any case, as the police forces gravitate towards a single system, this system eventually becomes your single point of failure 06:47:49 elliott: I never said that people are fundamentally nice, but it's also absurd to claim that there's anything fundamentally *wrong* with people. 06:48:11 evincar: there isn't. selfishness is just a fact 06:48:29 and a sane governmental system uses this to its advantage, and stops it being dangerous 06:48:40 it lets it be expressed in a capitalist system so we get innovation and nice things 06:48:43 elliott: according to wikipedia, we're both wrong 06:48:46 but it stops it interfering with people's wellbeing 06:48:55 elliott: Of course, look at, oh, ecology. You're selfish to the extent that you can be without destabilising the system around you. Anything that causes the system to become unstable eliminates itself automatically. 06:48:57 anarcho-capitalism is a subset of libertarianism 06:49:00 coppro: well, yse 06:49:02 *yes 06:49:07 coppro: like nazism is etc. 06:49:10 well not that extreme 06:49:14 but ancap is basically libertarianism to the max 06:49:35 evincar: of course, but society doesn't have the same sort of safeguards as nature really 06:49:52 elliott: no, you were clear on libertarianism supporting minimal state 06:49:52 but that is not necessarily true 06:49:52 btw, it is in fact okay to admit wrongessness once in a while 06:49:58 coppro: well, i mean 06:50:02 if someone says 06:50:06 "I am a libertarian." 06:50:08 elliott: Interesting to note that libertarianism is a strict superset of ancap. But isn't every set a superset of the empty set? 06:50:12 as their entire political philosophy 06:50:13 that's what they mean 06:50:16 coppro: "essn" wat 06:50:22 elliott was wrong? 06:50:24 elliott: I have a counterexample 06:50:26 * Sgeo_ is crushed. 06:50:28 elliott: *wrongnessness 06:50:36 coppro: do you see the [007F]s? 06:50:40 elliott: no 06:50:43 I see: 06:50:45 elliott: Society *does* have the same safeguards as nature *except* when totalitarian agriculture is involved. 06:50:50 elliott: Read some Daniel Quinn. 06:50:52 wrongess[007F][007F][007F]ness 06:50:56 weird 06:51:02 evincar: i know it has safeguards, just not the same 06:51:07 anyway 06:51:13 coppro: i do admit i'm wrong, i just don't think i was wrong here :) 06:51:32 "libertarianism" as referring to a distinct place on the political spectrum is perhaps a loose use of terms, but it's obvious what i was using it to mean 06:51:45 and it's the most useful definition of that term when used to define a specific point on the spectrum rather than a whole spectrum in itself, in my opinion 06:52:08 elliott: you are/were on a defensive "ohshithesgotfactsthatcontradictmyviewmustmitigatelosses" 06:52:17 I know this because I do this all the time, so I can recognize it 06:52:17 Can I just say that I'm experiencing a nerd head rush from carrying on a lucid, sophisticated, intellectual conversation with people who seem to be largely my junior? 06:52:26 evincar: yes 06:52:32 * evincar says so. 06:52:34 coppro: perhaps i am acting the same as if i was, but actually, i had *already loaded the wikipedia page* long before you mentioned it 06:52:43 coppro: and i stand by my usage of the terminology in this case 06:52:47 elliott: then my statement goes double 06:53:03 * coppro pops this conversation 06:53:05 coppro: whatever, i'm uninterested in arguing the point -- but i have always used the term libertarian to mean two things, the philosophy and the particular point 06:53:12 coppro: and i am not going to stop doing that, because many people do 06:53:14 e.g. Libertarian Party 06:53:16 of USA 06:53:19 uses it in that sense 06:53:40 besides, arguments about terminology are *stupid*, there aren't any facts in terminology whatever wikipedia says imo :) and that goes for *every* term 06:53:44 there's just what's most useful 06:53:45 but yes 06:53:47 pop conversation 06:53:53 Can I just say that I'm experiencing a nerd head rush from carrying on a lucid, sophisticated, intellectual conversation with people who seem to be largely my junior? 06:53:59 heck, what about me? i'm sleep-deprived 06:54:11 it's not quite a head rush so much as a... head the-bends 06:54:16 elliott: Right you are. That says nothing of the actual members of the Libertarian Party, however...there's a large congregation of them here in the Northeast, and they're known for causing a certain amount of trouble, politically and legally. 06:54:17 woo i'm monologuing 06:54:21 evincar: how old do you think I am? 06:54:38 coppro: I have no idea. In your twenties, probably? 06:54:38 coppro has always been 16 and always will be 06:54:44 coppro's 18 :p last i checked 06:54:46 which was never 06:54:47 i think 18 06:54:48 i forget 06:54:54 Ah, still younger than me then, if you're right. 06:55:00 I was playing it safe. 06:55:09 elliott is correct 06:55:09 don't take my word for it i don't actually know 06:55:13 ok take my word for it :P 06:55:23 i was extrapolating from in high school recently + then in university 06:55:32 * evincar takes coppro's word that elliot's word is correct. 06:55:47 TWO TS 06:55:49 So yeah, I'm the geezer in here. 06:55:52 Unless Sgeo_ is older. 06:55:54 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BerserkButton 06:56:06 Sgeo_ is 20 or 21, although i find it almost impossible to convince myself of this fact 06:56:10 20 i think 06:56:23 Ah. Well, fairly typical IRC age range, then. 06:56:31 Then again, I might be biased. 06:56:40 evincar: you were in here in 2008 right? 06:56:44 The only chats I've ever joined have to do with deep, heady things. 06:56:48 -!- augur has joined. 06:56:49 Yeah, 2007 or 2008. 06:56:51 i talked to you when i was 12! hahaha! although i was a bit of an idiot 06:57:01 I think I remember that. 06:57:04 ehird 06:57:09 Hah! 06:57:10 Yes. 06:57:16 You were...precocious? 06:57:21 evincar: aw great, now you've associated me with that guy :) 06:57:24 why did i do that? 06:57:36 in my view, part of the problem with libertarian groups in general is that they tend to contain both people who believe that the correct social structure has little/no government and are willing to carry on lucid, intellectual, well-thought-out arguments about why this is the case and how they intend to implement it. 06:57:39 i've evolved from precocious to just being a dick 06:57:44 in my defence, people are idiots 06:57:49 (i'm not actually this misanthropic!) 06:57:50 I am fully aware that people can evolve, my friend. 06:57:59 *and people who just hate the fucking cunts in the motherfucking government 06:58:01 I've changed drastically in the past month, since leaving my girlfriend. 06:58:06 I am so much happier. 06:58:23 coppro: i was so confused before you added that correction 06:58:26 actually, the same goes for communist groups too 06:58:27 i was like "..okay" 06:58:28 *... 06:58:52 people who believe that the correct social structure is one of very strong government... and a bunch of ditto marks 06:59:06 btw, do you want a laugh? 06:59:08 google canadian action party 06:59:15 Ho ho. 06:59:26 * evincar knows about this already. 06:59:28 it's interesting just how far apart and yet close statist communism and anarchic communism are 06:59:41 and i am not entirely sure the transition from the first to the second could or would ever happen, ever :) 06:59:56 evincar: are you Canadian? 07:00:05 american, unless i'm mistaken 07:00:09 i love answering other people's personal questions 07:00:14 or at least, he's in america now 07:00:16 ~HOSTNAME POWAH~ 07:00:27 coppro: canadian action party sound fun 07:00:28 coppro: elliot's right, but living in New England gives me a pretty good sense of things, I think. 07:00:39 I plan to move to Canada in a few years. 07:00:45 TWO 07:00:46 MOTHER 07:00:47 FUCKING 07:00:48 TS 07:00:58 *ahem* 07:00:59 anyway 07:01:12 evincar: you should move to europe, it's nice here! (note: i am not in one of the nice parts of europe) 07:01:14 elliott: That's what I get for mistyping, incorrectly correcting, and failing to just use tab-complete. 07:01:23 although immigration into the EU is probably non-trivial 07:01:54 coppro: one of our nationalist political parties has clearly read http://zapatopi.net/belgium/ 07:01:55 elliott: I'd like to live somewhere in the south of England, or in the north country of France. 07:02:25 evincar: no. you do not want to live in england. 07:02:27 evincar: trust me. 07:02:31 elliott: Speaking French gives me a certain fraction of French nationalism, not to mention I have French Canadian heritage (though I hate Québécois accents.) 07:02:35 evincar: maybe cornwall. but england: no. 07:02:46 elliott: Go on... 07:02:59 evincar: our political climate is horrible 07:03:04 our weather is horrible 07:03:11 we seem to have a ridiculous proportion of assholes in the population 07:03:17 it's just not a very pleasant country :) 07:03:57 elliott: How's the politics and culture surrounding gender identity and sexual orientation? 07:04:47 you can have civil unions instead of gay marriage. there is a lot of homophobia and the like, and of course there is everywhere, but there's gonna be a lot more than in sweden or whatever 07:04:51 elliott: Obviously, I'd've got more of an impression of this if I'd looked more seriously into living in the UK in the near future. 07:05:04 i don't even know of any transphobia but then i don't know of much transphobia *anywhere* since it's such an ignored topic 07:05:10 that i doubt most people even know of it 07:05:22 evincar: i mean okay, generally people here are nice because... everywhere people are nice 07:05:30 but uhh 07:05:37 it's so hard to give a balanced idea of your own country! 07:05:46 evincar: ok, you know how you're in the us, and top on your list of plans is "move outside the US"? 07:05:58 elliott: Very true. I know a couple of transsexuals who also dress, and they can get by totally under the radar because people just don't know about it. 07:06:00 because you don't want to do the interesting things in your life in the US? 07:06:08 elliott: No, not as such. 07:06:13 evincar: that's what you said! :p 07:06:14 elliott: I mean, wait. 07:06:16 more or less 07:06:23 That was in response to the first thing. 07:06:26 "I'm in the USA but I'm moving to Canada ASAP." 07:06:28 No, I don't want to just escape the US. 07:06:36 i'm wording this terribly 07:06:38 fff tiredness 07:06:42 evincar: ok what i'm trying to say is 07:06:48 I only want to move to Canada because I like French culture and because there are tax incentives for game developers. :P 07:07:01 And, y'know, socialised health care, recreational marijuana, whatever. 07:07:06 so much for open source :) 07:07:19 Not that I even smoke marijuana with any regularity or frequency. 07:07:55 elliott: I love open source. I also love making money. The two are not incompatible. I'll release everything I can freely. 07:08:15 i don't see many open source games with good sales 07:08:53 elliott: There's nothing to say I can't release the source after the game has run its lifetime. 07:09:07 Or you can release the engine and make the media proprietary 07:09:14 (and the levelsets) 07:09:17 coppro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iulNvamNzeg#t=40s 07:09:19 coppro: watch this for a laugh 07:09:27 coppro: (start from the beginning if you have the attention span) 07:09:31 DROD has experienced modest success under this strategy 07:09:36 coppro: I do have a solid engine that I wouldn't even need to open-source, just make the API available and people would be pretty happy. 07:09:56 evincar: even better from a financial point of view 07:09:56 evincar: I oppose copyright, basically, so I can't support you I'm afraid :) but it's better than most game selling models at least. 07:10:15 scratch the basically, i oppose copyright 07:10:26 elliott: Do you oppose commercial copyright? 07:10:32 coppro: clarify your term 07:10:41 elliott: Intense speech. 07:10:52 evincar: intense and idiotic :) 07:10:54 elliott: copyright law used to prevent someone from making money off of another's work 07:11:06 evincar: if you keep listening you'll eventually hear him saying that belgium is "not even a real country" 07:11:15 which is possibly the funniest thing i've ever heard 07:11:18 i repeat, http://zapatopi.net/belgium/ 07:11:30 elliott: "Basically a non-country". 07:11:34 lolwut 07:11:36 evincar: yeah, that 07:11:45 evincar: read that page, it's amusing :) 07:11:55 coppro: well. you already see GPL'd software being sold legally but shadily 07:12:01 coppro: all over the place 07:12:09 coppro: and while it's legal (sometimes not, but let's ignore that for now), it isn't a huge problem 07:12:15 coppro: few people get suckered into it 07:12:21 elliott: No, I mean something like me starting a bookstore where I sell other people's books at only the printing costs and never give the author a red cent 07:12:36 coppro: that's basically like selling someone else's free ffmpeg wrapper. 07:12:43 coppro: which happens. and is mostly legal 07:13:01 coppro: but is not a problem 07:13:04 elliott: the books in this case are not free for others 07:13:19 elliott: so you are okay with creators being forced to compete with reproducers? 07:13:22 * Sgeo_ is 21 07:13:27 coppro: yes they are; there's no copyright, so any book that is sold would just be reproduced online immediately 07:13:39 coppro: let me find something pertinent for you 07:13:42 elliott: Copyright exists. 07:13:51 coppro: not in my hypothetical world, it does not 07:13:53 elliott: I find it remarkable that your views on copyright are so liberal, after the discussion we just had. 07:13:59 evincar: why? 07:14:22 elliott: I perceive a contrast, but there may not actually be one. 07:14:30 elliott: I accuse you of committing a fallacy 07:14:42 elliott: so you are okay with creators being forced to compete with reproducers? 07:14:44 please read this http://diveintomark.org/archives/2009/10/19/the-point 07:14:50 it's a very nice, and enlightened, view on these kinds of things. 07:14:56 and is even to do with books! 07:15:20 Ah, never mind, I was mistaken. 07:15:34 Chalk it up to the hour or something. 07:15:37 evincar: what contrast did you perceive, just of curiosity? 07:16:10 Well, you were advocating rather strongly against anarcho-capitalism and libertarianism alike, no? 07:16:15 elliott: It is that 07:16:27 And I do believe that many creators will create for the joy of creating 07:16:30 I sure do 07:16:31 evincar: indeed 07:16:32 evincar: indeed 07:16:35 *drop one of those 07:16:41 However, it is far easier to go about this creation if I'm paid for my work 07:16:43 elliott, but that's that one person's choice 07:16:49 coppro: Creators gonna create. 07:16:52 coppro: I still believe that a commercial incentive could be made to create creative works 07:17:08 evincar: I do not have time to work on open-source stuff right now 07:17:16 Night all 07:17:30 elliott: So I didn't take into account the capitalist aspect of that. I figured you'd like to be paid for your work, as a creative. 07:17:36 coppro: off the top of my head -- this probably wouldn't work, but if i can generate possibilities off the top of my head this easily... -- creator makes several excellent works for free, gets a reputation -- and then operates a donation system: once I get N donations, you get a new film/whatever on [date] 07:17:37 elliott: How, if the creative work will instantly be distributed free and thus become worthless? 07:17:45 coppro: this probably would not work, but... it's an idea 07:18:07 just because we can't think of something perfect yet (and for all i know someone already has) doesn't mean we should stop trying 07:18:15 evincar: i'm a free culture hippie :) 07:18:20 evincar: really it's all so... non-clear-cut. 07:18:22 coppro, elliott: I think a balance like Creative Commons is really the solution here. :P 07:18:25 elliott: fair... for now 07:18:33 i'm not as sure as i portray myself 07:18:44 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:18:46 evincar: even creative commons lets other people republish another's book and give them no money 07:18:50 well, unless you count non-commercial 07:18:57 which is a bad license IMO 07:19:04 Personally, I would love to remove as much copyright as is possible 07:19:04 (no-derivatives is even worse) 07:19:16 but I believe it needs to be done with care 07:19:29 yeah... for now i support the pirate party 07:19:43 elliott: What's so bad about the non-commercial clause? I think it's reasonable to assert that work that you intend to be free ought to always remain free, even in derivative form. 07:19:43 as wimpy and unrevolutionary as they have turned out to be, it's better than what we have now :) 07:19:52 And even then, someone can always obtain the permission of the creator. 07:19:53 evincar: you have mixed up free and Free 07:20:00 an easy mistake, considering how stupid the terminology is 07:20:06 try libre, it's obnoxious but will help sort out your sentence 07:20:17 Ugh, I meant gratis, not libre. 07:20:27 evincar: gratis for both of them? 07:20:29 Yes. 07:20:37 evincar: well. 07:20:44 say someone has published a novel online 07:20:47 and i want a printed copy 07:20:52 i can easily go to lulu or whatever and make myself one 07:20:59 but what if i want to give other people the opportunity to get one, too? 07:21:03 there's no reason not to 07:21:09 no reason to make other people to typeset it, 07:21:14 go through the lulu process 07:21:15 etc. 07:21:22 so, i put it up for sale at lulu's *minimum price* 07:21:24 i see not a cent of profit 07:21:35 and people who want to read this free novel in print can do so for the cost of publishing it + some profit for lulu 07:21:39 yet a non-commercial license forbids this 07:21:49 i do not view this as a good thing: this forced duplication of effort 07:22:02 indeed, "forced duplication of effort" summarises patents and proprietary software too! 07:22:07 elliott: Valid example. Subvert it with an addendum. Legal language is, after all, language. 07:22:09 you can't use this: you have to make your own. because i say so. 07:22:19 evincar: you cannot make such an addendum meaningful 07:22:23 it is very much a commercial use 07:22:29 and people (lulu) are profiting from it 07:22:39 making money off what is primarily someone else's work without permission 07:22:44 yet it is not wrong, it is a good service to offer 07:22:53 commercial use doesn't mean commercial *ab*use 07:23:05 and you can't really distinguish the two when you get down to it, it is very subjective 07:23:07 "NC except by permission", "NC except by (insert term defined as meaning 'derivative service' or some such)". 07:23:16 elliott: actually, looking at NC, you could do that 07:23:22 evincar: well, perhaps that would be better. 07:23:28 of course it is still *definitely* not libre like this. 07:23:31 to make it more funny, lulu would be violating copyright 07:23:32 but you would not be 07:23:36 coppro: heh 07:23:43 coppro: but lulu will have TOS saying 07:23:47 hey you can't make us violate copyright 07:23:49 (in effect) 07:23:53 so you'd be breaking lulu's rules 07:23:58 elliott: Probably it will say you can't upload copyrighted material 07:24:00 even if this isn't legally enforceable they could still drop you. 07:24:02 or something like that 07:24:02 yeah 07:24:07 * coppro goes to look 07:24:14 evincar: a fundamental part of the definition of libre is that there is *no* discrimination due to fields of use 07:24:18 evincar: that includes commercial. 07:25:02 this is a nice conversation 07:25:22 so often interesting conversations are bogged down in trivial, silly debates underlying a larger point you want to get to 07:25:32 but we all seem to share some sort of bedrock of opinions which is helpful 07:25:34 elliott: So, once again, free-as-in-beer conflicts with free-as-in-freedom. 07:25:39 right. 07:25:44 elliott: in the case of lulu, technically you would be violating lulu's ToS by failing to license them the work 07:25:53 coppro: i guessed something like that, yeah 07:25:54 elliott: And, you're right, this conversation is stimulating and the disagreement is lively rather than irritating. 07:26:19 "Stalin and Hitler.png" best filename ever 07:26:31 well okay not best but 07:26:33 i'm tired kay? 07:26:44 coppro: remember when we spent hours getting absolutely nowhere about copyright? 07:26:47 that was FUN* 07:26:49 *note: not actually fun 07:27:17 Okay, allow me to cite the relevant clause 4b: 07:27:21 You may not exercise any of the rights granted to You in Section 3 above in any manner that is primarily intended for or directed toward commercial advantage or private monetary compensation. The exchange of the Work for other copyrighted works by means of digital file-sharing or otherwise shall not be considered to be intended for or directed toward commercial advantage or private monetary... 07:27:23 ...compensation, provided there is no payment of any monetary compensation in connection with the exchange of copyrighted works. 07:27:29 elliott: yes, I recall 07:28:08 Re: the lulu example, you're not in violation because you're not primarily intending or directing your actions toward commercial advantage etc. 07:28:26 right, you don't violate copyright 07:28:32 the worse that could happen is lulu could terminate you 07:28:50 coppro: Okay, I just wanted to make sure I was understanding your argument correctly. 07:30:12 we should turn this into a computing flamewar 07:30:33 Oh oh! 07:30:36 So I made a language. 07:30:41 Uh, not quite finished yet. 07:30:44 btw, good news: The Pirate Party is close to running a candidate! 07:30:58 But it's designed to question the nature of computation, so it could be an interesting discussion starter. 07:32:09 modern computing is fundamentally badly designed, filesystems are a crock, and current systems are a mire of historical debris that don't respect the user. 07:32:10 DISCUSS 07:32:14 (Uh, provided anyone notices.) 07:32:20 by 'close', I mean that he needs to file nomination papers 07:32:28 he's been approved and is ready to go 07:32:55 i love this channel 07:33:51 elliott: It's a hell of a good place to be. 07:34:03 yeah 07:34:12 Oh, and there's nothing to DISCUSS. :P 07:34:22 this channel is a bizarre bastion of mostly-erudite thought 07:34:28 you're all meant to disagree 07:34:32 and defend the wonderful linux 07:34:32 (as opposed to, say, mathNEWS (shut up elliott)) 07:34:40 * evincar listens to balalaika music and can't wait to get a new one. 07:34:43 SO COPPRO HOW'S MY ARTICLE DOING IN THAT THAR PIPELINE 07:34:44 had to 07:34:46 forgive me 07:34:49 it's okay 07:34:57 I already told you to shut up about it 07:35:36 it's amusing to compare conversations like these to the rabble that goes on in here sometimes :) 07:35:52 what i am learning is: 4, 5, 6 am is when the cool people are on! 07:36:02 Yeah, that was like 20 or 30 KB of a single conversation. :P 07:36:08 elliott@dinky:~$ dd if=/dev/random of=foo bs=512 count=4 07:36:08 0+4 records in 07:36:08 0+4 records out 07:36:08 174 bytes (174 B) copied, 1.59379 s, 0.1 kB/s 07:36:09 eh wot? 07:36:11 i asked for 2048 bytes 07:36:17 i wonder why dd is ... mysteriously giving up 07:36:39 evincar: unfortunately we're too busy talking about the conversation to converse any more 07:36:49 elliott: iirc dd stops if /dev/random runs out of input 07:36:53 can't remember why 07:36:56 elliott: Well, *I'll* bloody take charge. 07:36:58 coppro: that's retarded, do you know how to stop that? 07:37:04 i guess cat /dev/random | dd if=/dev/stdin 07:37:22 elliott@dinky:~$ cat /dev/random | dd if=/dev/stdin of=/dev/null bs=512 count=4 07:37:22 280 bytes (280 B) copied, 2.54588 s, 0.1 kB/s 07:37:26 i hate you dd 07:37:35 Okay, so would it be fair to distribute the major programming paradigms along an axis from "more imperative" to "more declarative"? 07:37:52 evincar: about as fair as the left/right political spectrum, which means: no but go on anyway 07:37:53 Actually, any programming language. :P 07:37:54 actually that's a lie 07:37:57 it's rather reasonable really. 07:38:04 Alright, well. 07:38:05 just not as a sole descriptor of a paradigm, obviously 07:38:55 My sense of it is that functions encapsulate actions, therefore functional programming is inherently declarative in some sense, because actions, being the basic unit, become sort of implicit. 07:39:10 interesting argument 07:39:29 And objects encapsulate things, therefore imperative programming is inherently, well, imperative, because nouns, being the basic unit, become implicit as well. 07:39:29 evincar: you should come up here to Waterloo! 07:39:33 evincar: what is an action in lambda calculus? 07:39:45 *the lambda 07:39:47 elliott: Everything is an action. 07:39:52 bam 07:40:05 -!- mimcpher has joined. 07:40:06 evincar: unhelpful :) 07:40:07 \x.x is the action of returning what you were given. 07:40:12 coppro: DAMN YOU WATERLOO PEOPLE 07:40:19 mimcpher: You cannot take over! 07:40:21 we will revolt. 07:40:24 REVOLT 07:40:34 coppro: hello poofrosh 07:40:35 evincar: ok, so every function in lambda calculus is the action of returning [f x]. 07:40:45 evincar: that's not very helpful :) 07:40:49 elliott: In its canonical form, though. 07:40:51 coppro: do i blame you? 07:41:02 elliott: blame amstan 07:41:05 who 07:41:07 It's not intended to be a useful statement as such, just a definition for what I'm going on to say. 07:41:13 evincar: i see. well in lambda calculus' canonical semantics there is no returning, just rewriting 07:41:24 your model is FLAWED! Mwahahaha! Give up now! okay carry on 07:41:31 coppro: is amstan that guy who came in a while ago 07:41:43 elliott: Allow me to simplify my language for the sake of not going mad, and trust that I do have some idea of what I'm talking about. :P 07:41:43 elliott: no, he's just the guy we always blame around here 07:41:48 you're thinking dbelange 07:41:55 he was irritating :) 07:42:00 you're all irritating 07:42:04 die, all of you 07:42:12 Our sysadmins get complains about dbelange from random IRC servers 07:42:13 :-P 07:42:33 evincar: go on :P 07:42:39 Okay, so we've got functional/declarative/verbal, and procedural/declarative/nominal. What's missing is an "adjectival" paradigm, in which the fundamental unit of computation is the *description*. 07:43:24 XML!!!1 07:43:25 Go on. 07:43:30 What would an adjectival programming language look like? I think it could not have just any measure of imperative versus declarative nature, because descriptivity is NOT orthogonal with the others. 07:43:38 It's a triangle, not two axes. 07:43:41 If you will. 07:43:48 It's a hypersphere! 07:43:51 (Probably.) 07:43:54 Eh...or a triangle. 07:43:59 :P 07:44:00 evincar: Don't you mean a square? 07:44:03 A triangle-shaped spectrum would be odd. 07:44:22 evincar: Because, basically, the only totally-descriptivist language would be exactly in the *centre* of imperative vs declarative. 07:44:34 And the more imperative or declarative you get, the less descriptive you could possibly be. 07:44:35 elliott: Not really. The language is defined by its relative proximity to three points. 07:44:41 Ah. 07:44:44 Alright then; go on. 07:44:50 Hey, my spell checker finally accepts "alright". 07:45:20 So what I did was say: okay, everything is a "description", or, for the purposes of the language, a "property", which I'll shorten to "prop" for ease. 07:45:44 Now, a prop can "be" other props, or it can "have" them. It amounts to the same thing. 07:46:05 You can imbue a prop with another prop, and you can test the props of a prop. 07:46:38 In a typed adjectival language, a prop can also "be" a value, such as a number or an array or whatever. 07:48:01 Now, for props there is no real notion of ownership, so this leads to some interesting things about, say, defining functions. 07:48:02 evincar: coppro: why haven't either of you disputed my controversial statement about computing? sheesh 07:48:07 okay reading evincar's messages now 07:48:15 evincar: ok so 07:48:25 *pauses* 07:48:28 prop = value * list(prop) 07:48:55 elliott: Sort of. We are assuming a typed system. 07:49:17 Props are unordered, first of all, so they're more like sets, but as I said, there's no notion of "ownership" of props with which a prop is imbued. 07:49:18 well, values have types. 07:49:23 prop = value * set(prop) 07:49:26 evincar: yes, but props have/be props 07:49:31 and that set is the list of props that this prop is 07:49:40 evincar: presumably you have a few primitive props? 07:49:45 prop = value * set(prop) | awesomeness | yayness 07:49:48 and the like 07:49:53 (you get what i mean; like "builtins") 07:50:22 elliott: Props have/be props, yes, but a prop-expression can also be treated as a prop on its own. 07:51:07 Effectively you've got a directed graph, which can be cyclic, and also for which an edge can point to a group of nodes rather than just a single node. 07:51:38 Although you can model the last bit as just "A -> G -> { X, Y, Z, ... }" for groups. 07:51:59 So it's a lot more fluid than just a set. 07:52:14 Because it's transitive. 07:52:24 If A is B and B is C then A is C. 07:52:59 Further, the source of an edge can be a group of nodes, so you can imbue a prop-expression with props, as well. 07:53:03 So! 07:53:11 (And this leads to the coolest syntax ever.) 07:53:32 You can say [a divides b] means [b % a == 0]. 07:53:49 interesting. i think 07:53:59 And that imbues the prop-expression "[a divides b]" with the (builtin) prop "means", which refers to "[b % a == 0]". 07:54:21 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:54:31 Whenever you say "x divides y", if there's no match on x for y, then it looks at the meaning of the expression instead, and finds a match that way. 07:54:50 i will understand this a lot better with a spec, gotta say :) 07:55:06 So execution of a program in a purely adjectival language constitutes lots of ridiculous pattern-matching on a mutable directed possibly-cyclic graphlike structure. 07:55:28 Actually, mutability isn't necessarily a requirement, come to think of it, but it'd be nice. 07:55:44 evincar: getting rid of mutability will make your execution model much more interesting -- that is my prediction 07:55:57 it tends to, since you lose a lot of the idea of evaluation order 07:56:18 elliott: It seems to be inherently parallel, this language. 07:56:24 then state is even worse :) 07:56:41 I'd definitely want to go with implicit parallelism + monads. 07:57:02 Monads could be encapsulated in a builtin "then" property. 07:57:02 We functional programmers support the separation of Church and state. 07:57:09 elliott: Cheeky. 07:57:19 You have a strange definition of cheeky. :) 07:57:45 "brash; offensively bold". 07:57:57 It was a pun. I don't see the brashness. 07:57:58 I guess I use it in a manner somewhat more synonymous with "saucy". 07:58:12 Oho, those saucy functional programmers. 07:58:16 Whether that's right or not is for the prescriptivists to decide. 07:58:26 It's certainly confusing :) 07:58:41 Aaanyhow, I'm not sure correctness is a decidable problem. ;) 07:58:50 heh :) 07:58:59 Now THAT was a pun. 07:59:11 Not that nothing else was. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:16 What was? 08:00:25 So...yeah, it's very much Lispy in the sense that you've got essentially no syntax (or only one syntactic element, technically) and the language is just a set of fundamental operations mushing around the graph of the program. 08:00:44 I shudder to think what self-modifying programs would look like, but I imagine they would be frighteningly beautiful. 08:01:05 But as in Lisp, the program could easily have inherent access to its own source. 08:01:38 I just got annoyed enough with Midori that I installed Firefox. Sigh. 08:01:55 evincar: Lisp doesn't really have that. 08:02:13 It has macros, sure, but a program can't say "(setq me '(exit))" or whatever. 08:02:18 Unless you use lukego's silly hack for that. :) 08:02:36 elliott: It has the notion of program as data, though, and you can traverse an expression-tree just as you traverse an ordinary list. 08:02:42 Right. 08:03:07 evincar: The []s remind me of Nock (http://moronlab.blogspot.com/2010/01/nock-maxwells-equations-of-software.html), although it's clearly nothing like that. 08:03:16 That's the concept I meant to refer to, and there must certainly exist a parallel in a language that's very similar in spirit but based on an entirely different data structure and model of computation. 08:03:29 evincar: It sounds like a nice language. 08:03:38 evincar: It sounds like something that could be adapted into something "useful", too. 08:03:57 evincar: I would be very interested in seeing what compilation tricks you could do to a no-builtin-state version. 08:04:05 elliott: I know, that's the frightening bit. 08:04:26 elliott: Compilation isn't something I want to think about. A nice, stringly-typed interpreter for me, thanks, just to get it working and done. 08:04:41 Stringly-typed -- like SNOBOL! 08:04:43 :) 08:04:49 Or Tcl. 08:05:04 evincar: It just sounds like the basic operation might actually be very efficient. 08:05:07 You should prove your concepts in the fastest way possible for you, then polish them into the fastest possible thing for the computer. 08:05:25 Yes, yes; I'm talking specifically about compilation theory here. 08:05:50 As in... given a regular imperative CISC architecture, how efficient can we translate a bunch of applications of this one functional operation? 08:08:09 -!- tombom has joined. 08:08:45 elliott: I wonder if the language has a single fundamental operation. :P 08:08:57 evincar: Tree-traverse-rewrite-match-thing. 08:09:00 I mean, it can be made complete by isomorphism with Lisp. 08:09:16 -!- mimcpher has left (?). 08:09:38 Yeah, I was figuring search-and-rewrite-if-not-matched. 08:10:09 Well, push-search-and-rewrite-if-not-matched-then-pop. :P 08:10:46 So it could be implemented easily in a language that's conducive to graph- or list-based pattern-matching. 08:14:33 Gah, ever listen to Mika? 08:14:44 @elliott 08:14:52 brb 08:15:00 oh man, graph-based pattern matching 08:15:02 that sounds awesome 08:15:26 coppro: Believe me, using it as a basis for a language is the most awesome thing ever. 08:15:32 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:15:50 In fact, this is the first thing I've made that actually works whose implicationsI really don't fully understand. 08:15:52 evincar: do you have any examples? 08:15:56 ooh, must see 08:16:28 coppro: It's not done, so I'm not releasing it yet, but I'm making it a priority, because it's cool. 08:18:33 please do! 08:19:47 Here, some imperative style that runs: 08:19:49 range is from 1, to 100 08:19:50 [a divides b] means [b % a == 0] 08:19:52 for n in range 08:19:54 if 3 divides n && 5 divides n 08:19:55 output "FizzBuzz\n" 08:19:57 elif 3 divides n 08:19:59 output "Fizz\n" 08:20:00 elif 5 divides n 08:20:02 output "Buzz\n" 08:20:03 else 08:20:05 output n, "\n" 08:20:16 Yes, I'm going with whitespace, even though I'm not a Python fan. :P 08:20:51 how is that graph-based? 08:21:12 boring 08:21:12 It's subtle. The syntax deliberately masks it. If you were to remove the "to 100" property from the range, it would loop from 1 to forever. 08:21:40 Bah, this is the worst example I could have given, isn't it? 08:21:45 You want something weird. 08:21:51 yeah, since every language and its brother can do that 08:22:07 (though I do like the declaration syntax of infix divide. That's cool 08:25:30 [(a)] means [a]; [+ [a b]] means [a + b]; [* [a b]] means [a * b]; n is (+ (* 2 3) 5) 08:25:42 There, I just implemented prefix notation. 08:25:48 Sorta. 08:26:17 The gist of that example was to show how context-free grammars could be trivial to write. 08:26:39 Making it really easy to make DSLs. 08:28:09 yeah, that's definitely cool 08:28:25 but what about the graph-basedness? 08:29:05 coppro: See, this is me, demonstrating how I don't understand what I've made. 08:29:22 coppro: Let me try to come up with a better example. 08:29:54 ok 08:32:38 coppro: Okay, two very simple examples. You can write optimisations for the language in the language itself. 08:32:42 [a * 2] means [a + a] 08:32:50 All multiplications by two are now optimised into additons. 08:32:56 [[a is const] x [b is const]] means [statically [a x b]] 08:33:05 oh boy 08:33:06 All operations between two constants are now performed statically. 08:33:22 *additions 08:33:31 this could quite possibly get as nuts as Feather 08:33:35 (The syntax is speculative.) 08:33:39 (but probably not) 08:34:27 coppro: You see, it's hard to come up with good examples. Graph-rewriting is definitely powerful, but it lacks succinct examples. It's obviously especially useful in the context of anything to do with programming languages. 08:34:53 yeah, I think I sort of understand now 08:35:12 ... actually, this sounds like Feather except for the lack of retroactivity 08:35:57 coppro: But the "means" property isn't the only trick the language has up its sleeve, which is what makes it even more useful. 08:37:07 ooh 08:38:55 You could provide hints such as [a == b && b == c] implies [a == c], making the transitivity of equality explicit, and subject to possible optimisation. 08:39:40 And, naturally, you could make an "implies" for a user-defined function. 08:39:56 Where user-defined functions are naturally specified using "means", of course. 08:51:17 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:58:47 coppro: Totally unrelated note: what's with the abysmal state of pop music? I'm happy there are a few very innovative artists, but what the hell? 09:03:18 back 09:04:16 Consultant, McAfee Associates, Jan. 1996-Aug. 1997, Mar. 1998-Mar 1999 09:04:17 1. 09:04:17 Ported McAfee’s VirusScan product from Microsoft DOS to SunOS, Solaris, Linux, and FreeBSD. 09:04:17 2. 09:04:17 Designed and was principal programmer for WebShield, McAfee’s Linux-based antiviral firewall product. 09:04:19 why god why 09:04:41 [a divides b] means [b % a == 0] 09:04:44 elliott: Who? 09:04:44 you mean [[b % a] == 0] 09:04:56 also, your addition of imperative features clouds the alnguage. 09:05:06 [[a is const] x [b is const]] means [statically [a x b]] 09:05:10 elliott: I'm indecisive. :P 09:05:11 you use x here to denote a placeholder 09:05:15 yet in "[a divides b]" 09:05:19 divides was literal 09:05:26 you need a way to distinguish the two syntactically 09:05:34 evincar: no, you're not; operator precedence is just silly in a language like this 09:05:36 also, who = David Parsons 09:05:37 Yeah, I was arbitrarily assuming that a..z count as placeholders. 09:05:49 You could provide hints such as [a == b && b == c] implies [a == c], making the transitivity of equality explicit, and subject to possible optimisation. 09:05:52 this seems arbitrary 09:05:59 what are the semantics of "implies"? 09:06:27 elliott: It means that the expression can be rewritten as such, but need not be. It's "can means". 09:07:03 evincar: but if you rewrite [[a == b] && [b == c]] (you DO need the nesting, if these are *sets*) to [a == c] you lose the information that [a == b] 09:07:08 so it isn't an equivalent transformation at all 09:07:22 So if it helps the interpreter perform a rewrite, or if it's more efficient, then it's chosen, otherwise not. 09:07:24 evincar: can you tell me how this is at all different from term rewriting languages? 09:08:07 elliott: Just looking at the two props "means" and "implies", it's not. 09:08:35 Those nifty features are for transforming the graph. coppro asked about the graph-manipulating features. 09:08:53 evincar: are you sure you're not building five languages and then sticking them together? :) 09:09:51 elliott: You can easily bring in other interesting things like inversion of properties, so saying "not white" actually implies any colour other than white, or anything in general, if you don't restrict it. 09:10:13 And no, I'm not sure of that, but it's where the philosophy is taking me right now. 09:10:30 I'm just exploring the concept because I think it deserves to be explored. 09:10:44 I'll get a clearer direction as I go along. 09:12:26 stomach starting to hurt. breakfast soon 09:12:38 elliott: An important thing seems to be that props can convey loads of semantic information about the program itself, because they're inherently descriptive. So you could have a "parallel" prop, or a "quickly" prop that tries to do things using SSE or in parallel as it sees fit. 09:12:52 ok 09:14:28 oh no 09:14:31 i'm getting tired already 09:15:01 elliott: Also, operator precedence is a pretty little addition that makes it nicer to use, and I see no reason why symbolic properators (coin!) can't default to having a precedence while named properties don't. 09:15:09 Or rather, they all share the same precedence level. 09:15:10 evincar: because if properties are sets 09:15:20 then [a % b == 0] is the same as [% == a 0 b] 09:15:26 and other nonsense 09:16:48 elliott: Not quite, no. It's inherently infix. All expressions are assumed to be of the form "expr prop", where "prop" can be "id expr" or "properator expr" and "expr" can also be "[ expr expr* ]". 09:17:02 Hmm. 09:17:10 evincar: Definitely scrap all this imperative nonsense, thoug. 09:17:11 *though. 09:17:18 Distill and refine your core concept -- that's the way to go. 09:17:36 elliott: I appreciate the advice, and I definitely take it to heart. 09:17:54 The imperative nonsense was me being wishy-washy. :P 09:18:50 evincar: In fact, I'm not convinced any sort of effect model does this paradigm well; it sounds suited to pure evaluation to me. 09:18:59 As I implied before, I'm into existential bullshit, so I often spend a lot of time exploring the philosophical nature of something, going in totally the wrong direction with it while wandering, in order to feel that I have a deep enough sense of it to actually code it, when I probably should've just coded it from the beginning. 09:19:47 heh 09:19:54 elliott: Well, all of the effects would be internal, that's all. There has to be some notion of the current state of the graph from the interpreter's point of view. 09:19:55 -NickServ- Last failed attempt from: elliott!~Adium@phy-dhcp-34-229.mps.ohio-state.edu on Nov 01 14:06:56 2010. 09:19:58 hey -- would you look at that. 09:20:01 Some Ohio fucker thinks he's me! 09:20:12 But NO! I will defend this nick forever. Someday it will be valuable. 09:21:17 I'm not so attached to this nick in IRC, but you'll find me under the name "evincarofautumn" everydamnwhere else. 09:21:40 Except for a certain other persona that I'd like to keep separate from my public work. 09:21:41 I have never been able to stick to a pseudonym. 09:21:47 I change my mind about everything so much. 09:22:02 evincar: Oh come on, you just know I have to try and find a link from evincarofautumn to some other guy on the web now. 09:22:33 elliott: Good luck, I'll be interested. The only other instance I've seen of it was on an RPG Maker users' forum back in 2003 or so. 09:22:50 evincar: Now you're giving me clues! 09:23:09 The site is defunct. I'm not sure even Sherman and Peabody could find it. 09:23:27 And...it's just a username, to me. It only carries a little bit of deeper meaning. 09:25:51 * elliott goes about configuring Iceweasel to not suck quite as much 09:27:28 evincar: Talk more, this is boring! :P 09:27:31 coppro: You too. 09:27:39 elliott: Hah. Every single accessible Google result seems to pertain to me, anyway. 09:27:55 have you considered that that might not be a good thing? 09:27:59 For some reason I can't go past many pages. 09:28:15 wow, you're one of three people to ever use infogami 09:28:16 Like, 7 pages in, it says I no longer have 22,000 results, but more like 70. :P 09:28:30 elliott: I know, I was using Markdown before it was cool. 09:28:37 "So Obama has been elected, and we've created an Obamanation. Hillary had no such luck; this is a Hillarious failure." 09:28:39 you are a bad person 09:28:48 Aren't I just? 09:28:59 evincar: I take it you're a Magic player? 09:29:54 I am, but only a bit. The "evincar" name is actually (as you may find explained somewhere online) a deliberate perversion of "evincer", a nonexistent word that supposedly means "one who evinces". My username therefore ought to be spelt with a cedilla on the C, and in fact is intended to mean "he who brings the autumn forth". 09:30:06 ah 09:30:16 coppro: So, coincidence. :P 09:30:19 tiredness setting in. fuckfuck 09:30:34 the first word that comes to mind after 'evincar' to me is 'rath' 09:30:38 elliott: Keep at it. I intend to stay awake until the sun has set again. 09:30:44 Rath's evincars... 09:30:51 indeed 09:30:54 ...I've heard that somewhere. 09:30:55 and the mome raths evincarred 09:31:07 I don't really know anything about Magic's BS backstory. 09:31:19 evincar: In the Magic universe, the evincars were a series of rulers of the plane Rath 09:31:23 Although a recent cstheory.stackexchange.com question proved Magic is Turing-complete. 09:31:36 evincar: on only the second page of your name i see "xkcd" 09:31:37 also, if memory serves, a card has evincar in the name 09:31:37 coppro: So NOW I KNOW. 09:31:39 for shame, my friend. 09:31:40 for sham 09:31:43 *shame 09:32:01 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 09:32:06 elliott: I joined the XKCD fora recently, so it must have been bumped up in the results because that site is so high-ranking. 09:32:28 for shame 09:32:41 elliott: 4-shame. 09:32:52 Oh, incidentally, I've decided to call this language, however it turns out, D-script. 09:33:00 Since, you know, it's a delicious pun. 09:33:09 And a fairly generic name that's also searchable. 09:33:24 Thoughts? 09:33:28 flertl 09:33:30 coppro: You too. 09:34:05 ugh tree style tab is so close to perfection 09:34:06 elliott: Come to think of it, how will you know if a result doesn't pertain to me? Or will you just submit results to me for verification? 09:34:07 what it needs: 09:34:09 - less nesting 09:34:15 - every link opens in a new child tab BUT history is retained 09:34:28 - previous history is retained, vertical scrollbar; as you scroll up, more history from the past 09:34:44 Makes sense. 09:36:03 elliott: tree style tab? 09:36:15 coppro: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/5890/ 09:36:26 it's nice but i'm still not sure i can spare any of my 1366 horizontal pixels for it 09:36:27 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:36:34 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:37:13 So it seems I stand a pretty good shot of being the best non-professional balalaika player on YouTube, if I just get a webcam. The majority of the people who put up videos are fairly bad amateurs, or are only interested in traditional music. 09:37:22 -!- wareya has joined. 09:38:23 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPv9VZQkxJI this guy is hilarious, what is he even 09:38:33 There are of course a few videos of pro players and orchestras and stuff, against whom I stand no chance whatsoever. 09:38:48 this is the worst i have heard any instrument played 09:39:04 elliott: Old stuff. He's got presence at least. 09:39:16 evincar: he can't breathe properly 09:39:19 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFmZfgiczho&NR=1 09:39:35 that's better 09:39:40 elliott: Very good player, but falls into the category of "only wants to do traditional music". 09:40:12 It's an instrument that needs attention. I think it's got a great sound. 09:40:23 it looks like an asshole instrument :) 09:40:26 as in the designers 09:40:27 designer 09:40:28 whatever 09:41:25 evincar: SO WHAT HAPPENED TO PROG and god googlestalking is boring 09:41:33 elliott: Not sure what you mean. It *was* originally a peasant instrument made out of a pumpkin. :P 09:41:48 evincar: i mean the designer was an asshole who wanted to torture people who just wanted to make some music 09:41:54 elliott: Prog is in the feckin works, mkay? I just gave a talk about it a couple of weeks ago. 09:41:54 by making it impossible to play 09:42:02 evincar: THE LAST CHANGE WAS 200 DAYS AGO 09:42:05 elliott: It's very easy to play, but hard to master. 09:42:05 *OVER 09:42:56 elliott: I quit using Subversion and sorta abandoned the SourceForge project because I wanted to move in a new direction with it. I got a basic compiler working, then decided that the operator precedence parser might not be the best idea and decided to rework it into an ANTLR grammar. :P 09:43:25 Not to mention the shitloads of stuff I've reworked for concurrency's sake, after spending this past year getting really acquainted with FP. 09:44:35 I mean, I've used Scheme and what have you enough, and I've always been comfortable with functional computing abstractions, but it wasn't until I read up on the Actor model and started preaching the benefits of immutability that I really truly got it myself. 09:44:54 Erlang is beautiful. 09:44:58 evincar: erm, you do realise Scheme basically *debunked* the actor model? 09:45:05 and that was its claim to fame? 09:45:29 Okay, I should probably have included "stuff like". 09:45:58 I mean, I went through shitloads of research articles and actual programs written in various languages and taking different approaches to concurrency and parallelism. 09:46:07 evincar: It was originally created as a vehicle to explore the actor model. But then they realised that their code for procedures and actors were identical, and so they dropped the actor code, and everything worked fine. 09:46:10 I'm partial to implicit parallelism and monads, as I said earlier. :P 09:46:11 The actor model is silly. 09:46:26 Implicit parallelism is rather impractical; it was tried with Haskell but didn't work very well at all. 09:46:44 Was tried? Is being tried. Is working just dandy, actually. 09:47:01 evincar: no 09:47:08 because you end up parallelising even trivial expressions 09:47:13 this is a well-known result in haskell circles 09:47:29 elliott: There was some talk I watched in which the author of GHC discusses how he is solving those problems of granularity. 09:47:56 "the author" ahahaha 09:47:57 which one? 09:48:46 Fuck, an author. 09:49:11 I may be getting loopy here. 09:49:47 Anyway, Haskell definitely does sequential operations right, with monads, specifically encapsulating everything nicely in the type system. 09:50:16 If you want everything to be immutable, monads are how you need to handle sequence. 09:51:12 Although you could say I'm just stating "Haskell's way of doing things is the best way of doing things in Haskell". 09:51:22 Not sure whether you'd be right. 09:51:27 Most of the high-echelon Haskell intelligentsia are dissatisfied with the IO monad. 09:51:33 Note that monads aren't just about state and side effects... 09:53:32 elliott: Of course. Which Haskelligentsia in particular? 09:53:42 Conal Elliott is the main one. 09:53:45 (By the way, I think it was Simon Peyton Jones in that lecture.) 09:54:00 The problem is that if you say "Haskell with the IO monad is a purely functional language", then C is purely functional, too. 09:54:10 The implication being *the IO monad is not functional, it is imperative*. 09:54:25 And there is a functional way to do these things, FRP. Although nobody's quite figured it out yet :-) 09:54:30 http://conal.net/blog/posts/the-c-language-is-purely-functional/ 09:54:36 elliott: Right, but who needs I/O? :P 09:54:37 "My first inclination was to suggest that Haskell, as commonly practiced (with monadic IO), is not a functional language either. Instead, I’m going to explain how it is that the C language is purely functional." 09:57:03 elliott: so did you get long mode running yesterday? 09:57:11 olsner: Yesterday? I haven't slept! 09:57:17 elliott: Yeah, I wonder how scathing he intended this to be. It could be read as fun and light, but it could conceal some dark cynicism. :P 09:57:17 I have! 09:57:18 olsner: Wait, you've slept? But it went by so quickly... 09:57:35 olsner: I decided, upon looking at your code, that what the fuck long mode is complicated and I love protected mode and my babies are all raised in a system of protectedm ode. 09:57:39 *protected mode. 09:57:49 yes, well, I didn't get much sleep tonight 09:57:54 evincar: He's not cynical, he just doesn't think the IO monad is functional, and he thinks that FRP is nicer. :) 09:58:05 elliott: A fair assessment. 09:58:08 The most plausible scenario in which I am still awake at midnight involves dubious amounts of cocaine. This is not reassuring. 09:59:02 elliott: Don't worry, it'll all be sorted out eventually. Hell, depending on how things go, you might be awake for the rest of your life. 09:59:18 I'll take the cocaine. 09:59:21 In the sense of "set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life". :P 09:59:37 I figured. 09:59:42 After a few seconds of tired-induced dumbness. 10:00:18 Omg, Debian dropped support for 6800. 10:00:24 Beyond unacceptable. 10:00:46 the most complicated thing is to set up the page tables IMO, and that's not even that complicated 10:01:48 olsner: but i'm a lazy, tired as hell fucker. 10:02:49 elliott: Misintoned that as "But I'm a-lazy, tired as hell-fucker". That is, right now you're lazying, because you're as tired as someone who fucks hell. 10:03:13 Well, not necessarily "because", but at least "and also". 10:03:15 are you sure you didn't parse that properly and then decide to misparse it? :) 10:04:29 elliott: English grammar is ambiguous. You can't prove anything. >_> 10:07:20 I should write an esolang whose grammar is intentionally ambiguous, and whose parser decides between ambiguous expressions based on how amusing the result will be, rather than some arbitrary notion of "correctness" imposed by an ill-conceived attempt to implement DWIM. 10:08:03 Rather it will be an arbitrary notion of "humour" imposed by an ill-conceived attempt to implement...uh, line? 10:09:37 elliott, save me! 10:09:41 ejrio 10:09:59 That is not an English word. :/ 10:10:06 Although I can't prove that. 10:13:35 prescriptivist! 10:13:50 evincar: as futile as this quest is when one is so tired -- and as irritable as i am -- would you like to know of my current programming endeavour? 10:14:12 Hey, if it keeps you awake and keeps me entertained, by all means. 10:15:00 evincar: define a minimal term rewriting language L; write a short implementation of L in Haskell and a short implementation of L in L 10:15:04 if the latter is not short, redesign and repeat 10:15:12 aim for elegance on the level of the first lisp self-interpreter 10:15:27 elliott: A noble goal, and far better-defined than mine! 10:15:50 Although what constitutes "short" is still subjective. 10:15:56 of course. 10:16:11 i am aiming for the kind of thing you might see in a Functional Pearl paper. 10:17:10 evincar: The language needs a name -- perhaps "deinate", after DE-term-ine and term-INATE 10:17:30 I'd be interested to do some research into language minimisation like this. What is the minimal complete subset of L for which the self-hosted implementation is minimal? 10:17:42 evincar: btw for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_rewriting 10:17:47 evincar: wrt self-interpreting subsets, 10:17:53 http://catseye.tc/projects/pixley/ 10:18:10 elliott: Already saw the graph-rewriting article, while I was desperately fishing for examples in that department. 10:19:52 i'll call it dart 10:20:02 although the one-qwerty-sidedness of that may irritate me at some point :) 10:20:11 fuck! no haskell-mode installed 10:20:22 elliott: I love how it's defined as meta-circular based on the fact that it's already a strict subset of Scheme. It seems like a cheat. 10:20:34 when i'm tired you DO NOT GIVE ME THE EMACS I DO NOT WANT, Operating System 10:20:49 elliott@dinky:~$ ghci 10:20:49 bash: ghci: command not found 10:20:51 ASSHOLE 10:20:52 Dart is a good name. 10:20:53 :| 10:22:03 evincar: see in my perfect os, when i tried to open an .hs file 10:22:11 it would go "ok, i don't know what an .hs is; I'll look it up" 10:22:21 and it sees, on the network, that .hs = haskell-mode is the most popular thing 10:22:28 it would then obtain and use haskell-mode for me 10:22:33 so i don't have to goddamn install it myself fffffffff 10:22:37 this is what tired does to me 10:22:45 I'd add an interstitial confirmation dialog that allowed me to pick an alternative. 10:23:38 .hs = haskell-mode. Install? (3 alternatives, y=install, n=more, x=cancel) 10:23:50 For y, n, and x of your preference. 10:24:07 I haven't paid attention to any confirmation prompt in emacs for a long time. 10:24:18 It's all chords all the time. 10:24:25 evincar: no, because you could always just say 10:24:35 "i would like to use a different mode" 10:24:39 and it would have suggestions for you 10:24:49 M-x wrong-fucking-mode-emacs 10:24:50 no point prompting when a reasonable default can be picked, you can always override it 10:24:56 evincar: precisely 10:25:10 of course, with elisp not exactly being secure and emacs sucking this will never happen :) 10:25:16 Of course, the very concept of a *file* is stupid... 10:25:26 ...so it's more like when you edit some text tagged as being haskell code or something, i guess 10:25:34 What, you'd prefer to be able to arbitrarily scribble on your disk? :P 10:25:42 no 10:25:50 evincar: you know how you have nice structures and objects and things in memory? 10:25:57 and they're all rich and useful and aware of their own type? 10:26:06 evincar: instead of just byte streams associated with names? 10:26:11 Eh, kinda. 10:26:22 evincar: yeah, you put those objects on the disk. 10:26:34 and remove the artificial, historical RAM/disk address space distinction. 10:26:41 In reality, in both places, you have bytes that are not associated with names. :P 10:26:51 not really 10:27:07 every bit of data in a program is reachable by some accessor unless it's garbage or not your data 10:27:17 The association is meta-information. 10:27:19 in C, at least, every piece of data has a name -- *(type *)address 10:27:26 but you probably can't access most of them due to the security model 10:28:33 evincar: here's the whiny, pissed-offness-induced rant i wrote about it early this year: http://catseye.tc/ehird/files-suck.html 10:28:45 it is about as coherent as i would be if i tried to explain it in this state :) 10:30:49 So...you're saying that data of a certain type ought to have a canonical representation on disk? But...file formats are created for reasons other than circumventing the leaky abstractions of file systems. 10:31:21 i'm too tired to talk about such a heated issue, sorry :) 10:31:38 Does encoding and decoding PNG streams really belong in a filesystem driver module? :P 10:31:44 Bah, okay. 10:31:55 Does encoding and decoding PNG streams really belong in a filesystem driver module? :P 10:31:56 no 10:32:07 try to actually read the article, even if it is whiny :) 10:34:09 I am, carefully. If, say, PNG is the backing format of my image, and I query the filesystem to get at the image data, either the filesystem needs to decode it into the system's canonical representation of an image, or my application needs to decode it into whatever representation it sees fit. If you place it in the system driver, you've created a perfect abstraction at the cost of bloat,... 10:34:10 ...even if the bloat is modular. 10:34:19 there is no filesystem 10:34:22 If you place it in the application, you have the same problem. 10:34:24 you are making an invalid assumption 10:34:34 What does it mean to say "there is no filesystem"? 10:34:47 see section 3 of the rant 10:34:57 There has to be, at some level, a driver that manages the interaction between software and hardware. 10:35:44 disk is big object space, ram is smaller object space acting as cache and temporary modification holding area of disk 10:35:48 again see section three 10:35:55 It doesn't matter *when* the serialisation takes place, but at the hardware level, it has to happen. 10:36:20 i don't think you understand 10:36:36 the point is that the driver doesn't implement a "file system", but rather persistent storage of objects 10:36:37 Well, okay, here's a use case, and you give me the underlying do-how. 10:36:47 what olsner said 10:37:01 specifically, ram is simply a cache of a selection of objects from disk that are being used right now 10:37:11 modifications to the ram copies automatically are synchronised to disk 10:37:19 and you can refer to any object whether it's in ram or not, and it will be loaded from disk 10:37:23 the ram is managed by the os 10:37:24 olsner, elliott: I understand that, but I'm asking how an application actually interacts with it. 10:37:36 evincar: ok, here's an example 10:37:41 let's say {} is an object 10:37:52 myProgram = {masterpieces: {}}; 10:38:09 func myProgram.createMasterpiece(foo) { masterpieces.append(foo) } 10:38:16 func myProgram.masterpieceNumber(n) { masterpieces[n] } 10:38:24 func myProgram.editMasterpiece(n, foo) { masterpieces[n] = foo } 10:38:27 create ui around that, etc. 10:38:34 this object is automatically synchronised to disk 10:38:38 so every masterpiece is stored on disk 10:38:46 and if masterpiece N is loaded, but it's not in ram 10:38:48 it gets loaded from disk 10:39:25 i think olsner gets it :) 10:40:35 elliott: Okay, but that implies that the names and identities of objects are inherent in the models and implementations of the languages involved. How does a C++ program accomplish the same thing without losing performance to the fact that its memory model is no longer just flat bytes, but some kind of associative store? 10:40:54 evincar: who says its memory model isn't flat bytes? 10:40:58 the internal representation is irrelevant here 10:41:02 and, in fact, forget C++ even exists 10:41:12 it's bad enough trying to explain this to people without thinking about that awful abomination too 10:42:03 evincar: how objects look when loaded into programs is pretty much irrelevant to the idea, I think 10:42:27 olsner: Yes, but how do they get there and back? 10:42:44 through an API, using abstractions 10:43:00 evincar: they don't 10:43:04 from the program's point of view 10:43:05 And that is what I was asking about, elliott. 10:43:07 every object is always there 10:43:18 just because it hasn't referred to a list that's a property of one of its objects 10:43:20 doesn't make it disappear 10:43:22 even after a reboot 10:43:23 it is saved to disk 10:43:25 and it is simply there 10:43:29 you access it as a variable if it is a variable 10:43:33 as a property if it is a property 10:43:36 That only works in a language that is designed to support something similar. 10:43:37 with [n] if it's a list member 10:43:41 no 10:43:42 you are wrong 10:43:55 Okay, I was going to present you with an example. 10:44:25 evincar: ok, imagine a program 10:44:31 I have a program that loads a PNG, performs a convolution on the image data, and outputs the result. 10:44:33 that stores data, in memory, a text editor that stores stuff in memory, let's say 10:44:36 please, let me finish 10:44:37 imagine that 10:44:41 now imagine you never close down the program, ever 10:44:49 (Well, if you had let me start in the first place...) 10:44:50 evincar: you know the "hibernate" feature of all modern OSes? 10:44:53 Yes. 10:45:01 of course, you could hibernate as much as you want when running this program 10:45:05 and it would still run just fine 10:45:13 evincar: now imagine we wanted to store more documents than we have RAM 10:45:23 evincar: imagine the computer is "constantly" hibernated -- the contents of RAM are constantly mirrored on disk 10:45:26 evincar: now imagine inverting this 10:45:35 evincar: "objects in memory" are considered to actually be on disk 10:45:42 evincar: and RAM is merely where they are loaded to, when they are referenced 10:45:53 the program still works, and it works even across total shutdowns 10:45:57 and it can store more documents than fit into ram 10:45:58 do you see now? 10:45:59 elliott: Okay, I've understood that bit. 10:46:33 But what I'm asking is what sort of API you would present, and how, from a programmer's point of view, it would actually change anything. 10:46:43 you don't present any API 10:46:54 the exact same program that was written for a normal OS is used in the final stage, there 10:48:47 Okay, so a program that is designed around the concepts of loading and saving named files as unadorned byte streams will still work as expected. 10:48:53 no! 10:48:56 there is no filesystem api 10:49:02 that stores data, in memory, a text editor that stores stuff in memory, let's say 10:49:03 *in memory* 10:49:05 it NEVER touches any files 10:49:10 it is ENTIRELY in MEMORY 10:49:15 So the same program that was written for a normal OS will NOT work. :P 10:49:18 ahiofASDfuigojdg 10:49:26 THE PROGRAM THAT WAS WRITTEN FOR A NORMAL OS WAS THE ONE SPECIFIC PROGRAM THAT I DESCRIBED 10:49:29 NOT "ANY PROGRAM FOR A NORMAL OS" 10:49:34 Okay. 10:49:37 *THAT* SPECIFIC PROGRAM, WHICH WAS WRITTEN FOR A NORMAL OS >_< 10:49:39 capslock over 10:49:44 Okay. 10:49:48 I blame you for this :P 10:50:05 My pleasure. :) 10:50:13 I'm not trying to be irritating. 10:50:25 i know, and i don't hold it against you, it's just that you're succeeding :) 10:50:32 evincar: btw, this is not some new-fangled concept. 10:50:35 the literature has done it to death. 10:50:37 I just...disagree with you, but you seem to think I don't understand you, so I'm trying to make sure I do before I assert you're incorrect. 10:50:42 I think even freakin' *Multics* did it. 10:50:52 That's 1969. 10:51:30 elliott: So, alright...if I were to abstract "loading" as simply "the first read of an object, which implicitly brings it into working memory"... 10:51:39 ..."editing" as working on a copy of that object... 10:51:53 ...and "saving" as commiting changes... 10:51:58 evincar: committing? 10:52:00 there is no committing 10:52:06 ...then would an ordinary program... 10:52:09 ...that's not safe. 10:52:15 * elliott facepalms 10:52:19 olsner: you take over, i'm done 10:52:46 nope, have to go to work :) 10:52:47 The ability to decide when *not* to save your data is just as important as whether your data is retained. 10:52:52 dammit olsner 10:53:11 evincar: how about drop this and talk about it when i've actually slept :) 10:53:13 actually, should've gone at least an hour ago 10:53:14 If my documents are implicitly written to disk, how do I roll back changes? Are they versioned? 10:53:17 or i'm just going to get really annoyed. 10:53:20 at your misunderstanding. 10:53:42 I am trying very hard to get this. 10:53:46 i know 10:53:50 and i don't hold it against you :P 10:54:04 Oh well. I guess right now it's just one of those things. 10:54:22 If it's explained right, I'll get it, but until then, I feel as though it's a logical fallacy, or at least a bad idea. 10:54:25 evincar: trust that i'm right, though :) 10:54:30 and yes, you are misunderstanding badly. 10:54:41 filesystems have poisoned your brain :) 10:54:55 elliott: I will not trust that you're right, only that you think you're right, and you may very well be, but I don't know that yet. 10:55:12 well, if it helps, i am *far* from the only person to think this. 10:55:42 All I'm saying now is that there needs to be control over revisions in order for persistent objects to retain the backup-safety of traditional filesystems. 10:55:45 wtf haskell what f ijiojioj what is up with you my code is right 10:55:49 evincar: that is true, yes. 10:55:57 evincar: but i was discussing an "api" issue not a UI one 10:55:58 anyway 10:56:06 moving on to things we can talk more productively about with my tiredness! 10:56:11 Very well! 10:56:23 DART 10:56:26 IT REWRITES TERMS 10:56:32 show (Conj xs) = map (\x -> '(' : show x ++ ")") xs 10:56:34 AND WHY DOES THIS NOT WORK 10:57:02 oh i see 10:57:51 instance (Show e) => Show (E e) where 10:57:51 show (Atom s) = s 10:57:51 show (Conj xs) = '(' : unwords (map show xs) ++ ")" 10:57:52 there 10:58:34 elliott: bah, your error is obvious 10:58:39 yeah it was 10:58:41 s/ $// 10:58:42 in my defence 10:58:44 haven't slept 10:58:45 also your mom 10:59:08 olsner: I feel bad for not noticing it. :P 10:59:36 Oh, wait. 10:59:38 someRule :: (HoleyE, SolidE) 10:59:38 someRule = (conj [atom "car", conj [atom "cons", hole "x", hole "y"]], 10:59:38 atom "x") 10:59:40 woo 10:59:41 Ugh, doing multiple things at once. 10:59:45 okay time to write unify 10:59:46 evincar: ?? 11:00:03 elliott: Don't worry about it. 11:00:04 unify :: HoleyE -> SolidE -> Maybe [(SolidE, SolidE)] 11:00:05 I think. 11:00:17 so tempted to rename it HolyE 11:01:51 Sing it like this and you've got a deal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJlAop6SyLI 11:02:10 FUNK IT IS THE BEST DON'T YOU KNOW 11:03:38 holy shit! my unify function is almost written and it's so simpl;e 11:03:40 *simple 11:04:30 Functional programming is always startingly simple. 11:04:42 And my uncle is dying. :( 11:04:53 Of funk? 11:04:55 Sorry insensitive >__> 11:05:04 No, of pancreatic cancer, but you're close. 11:05:10 Nah, it's cool. 11:05:22 I'm not very easily offended. 11:05:22 "I have pancreatic cancer." "Oh. I'm in a funk band." "Ouch, sorry man." 11:05:30 Hah. 11:05:44 There's a reason that funk has "fun" in it, though. 11:06:56 elliott: Quote from a friend of mine from his professor: '...teaching the Juniors about buttons: "Why does the download arrow point down? Because the internet is above us. Go outside, look up, and you'll see it."' 11:07:18 It's as good a justification as any. 11:07:44 wow. 11:07:52 i love that 11:08:56 Also, another friend of mine just got a tragus piercing, which looks way cooler than it ought to. 11:09:19 ugh piercings 11:10:06 I'm not into piercing enough to get anything done. Same with tattoos. Although I hope to get my tattoo license some day. 11:10:29 Which means I'll basically have to practice on myself if I want to get practice on skin. 11:10:32 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:10:34 I find all piercings and tattoos unattractive. :/ 11:10:37 Unless I have a very tolerant partner. 11:11:05 Couldn't match expected type `[a]' 11:11:05 against inferred type `Maybe [(String, SolidE)]' 11:11:05 In the first argument of `zipWith', namely `unify' 11:11:07 i... fuck you 11:11:14 ohh 11:11:15 oh i see 11:13:52 evincar: 11:13:55 *Main Control.Monad> unify (conj [atom "car", conj [atom "cons", hole "x", hole "y"]]) (conj [atom "car", conj [atom "cons", atom "head", atom "tail"]]) 11:13:55 Just [("x",head),("y",tail)] 11:14:22 evincar: The first one there is (car (cons 'x 'y)). 11:14:26 evincar: The second is (car (cons head tail)). 11:14:38 evincar: And so, it matches the latter against the former and tells me to bind x=head, y=tail. 11:14:45 (Note: 'x means placeholder x, not quote x like in lisp.) 11:15:00 (Ah, that threw me off a moment.) 11:15:34 Uh, I have no useful response at this time. 11:17:26 Does it betray some latent sexism that I don't really care for female singers? 11:17:50 Or violinists. 11:18:12 Singers no, violinists probably :P 11:19:12 I'm saying nothing of skill. I just mean I can't tolerate watching a woman play a violin because something about it irks me, regardless of how brilliant she may be. 11:19:18 evincar: anyway, here is my unify function 11:19:21 unify :: HoleyE -> SolidE -> Maybe [(String, SolidE)] 11:19:21 unify (H (Atom s)) (S (Atom t)) | s == t = Just [] 11:19:21 unify (H (Conj xs)) (S (Conj ys)) = fmap concat . sequence $ zipWith unify xs ys 11:19:21 unify (Hole s) x = Just [(s,x)] 11:19:21 unify _ _ = Nothing 11:19:26 LOOK HOW TINY IT IS 11:19:30 I think it might have something to do with the fact that I can't reconcile the bearing of a violinist with the proportions of a woman. They seem incompatible somehow. 11:19:39 That is pretty. 11:20:44 My evaluator is going to be pretty inefficient. But I don't care much. 11:21:26 Also I *think* I'm going to end up with some form of dynamic scoping. Ha ha, what a life. 11:23:25 elliott: Somehow I can't resist dynamic scoping with explicit dynamic imports. It's easy to implement and has the same effect as lexical scoping in most cases. You only have to worry about closures. *shrug* 11:23:44 evincar: ugh, just, no 11:23:46 if you have lambda 11:23:49 you do lexical scoping 11:23:49 no arguments 11:23:51 it's easy 11:23:52 just do it 11:23:57 i refuse to give you a choice 11:25:16 elliott: But...but...dynamic scoping is more expressive! And more error-prone. :P 11:25:27 even mccarthy acknowledged it was a mistake 11:25:30 and thats motherfucking mccarthy 11:25:32 he is never wrong 11:25:34 You know, if you actually decide it's a good idea to do a dynamic import up the call stack. 11:25:34 shut up and lexicate 11:25:37 That's your problem. 11:25:41 err 11:25:46 you do realise the problems are far deeper than that? 11:25:53 Oh yeah. 11:25:59 for instance if x is bound in your scope 11:26:01 and you have 11:26:06 (lambda () ... x ...) 11:26:11 be passed to another function or returned 11:26:11 then 11:26:14 YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT X WILL BE 11:26:30 and if anyone else decided to name a variable x anywhere else in your call stack at the time, it's not what you want. 11:27:33 Eh, judicious mixing of dynamic and lexical scoping is fine. I equate a lambda with a hygienic macro, in some ways. 11:28:04 It should just import at the point of instantiation and the closure lasts as long as the lambda exists. 11:28:12 My language is degrading. I hope I make any sense. 11:28:58 you are a bad person 11:29:02 :p 11:30:04 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:30:16 elliott: Yes, we've established that. I have strong opinions about language design, weakly held. 11:30:45 Also, I'm contrary and rebellious and however you've got to get it done, have at. 11:31:52 elliott, hm, there? 11:31:59 *Main Control.Monad> someExpr 11:31:59 (car (cons head tail)) 11:31:59 *Main Control.Monad> someRule 11:31:59 ((car (cons 'x 'y)),x) 11:31:59 *Main Control.Monad> rewrite someExpr [someRule] 11:32:00 head 11:32:02 FUCK YES 11:32:04 Vorpal: indeed 11:32:09 elliott, have you ever implemented an AVL tree or a Red-black tree? 11:32:31 i don't recall ever doing so, but i've certainly read about implementing them 11:32:35 why? 11:33:05 elliott, right, which type of self balancing binary tree would be easiest to implement? Certainly not red-black. 11:33:17 I guess AVL might be easiest, but perhaps there is some other one? 11:33:35 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:33:54 elliott, as for why: looking for what is easiest to memorise for an exam where something like this is likely to be required. 11:34:52 chances of it requiring a specific variant is rather low... based on old exam papers for the same module 11:35:05 do whatever okasaki did :) 11:35:30 elliott, name rings a bell, can't place it *googles* 11:35:31 Gah, charlieissocoollike is so, like, cool. And cute. <3 11:35:40 worst name ever 11:35:59 elliott, purely functional data structures? 11:36:06 Vorpal: yes 11:36:07 the other google hits seem unlikely in the context 11:36:09 elliott: He did come up with it utterly arbitrarily by tacking on words instead of numbers to "charlie". 11:36:23 "I need me a username." 11:36:51 "charlie. Damn. charlieiscool. Damn. charlieissocool. Damn. charlieissocoollike. Bingo!" 11:37:30 rewrite :: SolidE -> [(HoleyE, SolidE)] -> SolidE 11:37:31 rewrite x ys = 11:37:31 case catMaybes $ map (\(l,r) -> fmap ((,) r) (unify l x)) ys of 11:37:31 (x',bs):_ -> rewrite x' (map (\(s,b) -> (atom s, b)) bs ++ ys) 11:37:31 [] -> x 11:37:32 evincar, what about charlieis? wouldn't that logically be a required step after the original? 11:37:38 in my defence, i do feel remorse for writing that. 11:38:22 Vorpal: Ask thee not! For verily I know not. 11:38:34 -!- Velmont has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:38:34 elliott, hm unify? 11:38:39 -!- Velmont has joined. 11:38:46 ah no lambdabot 11:38:54 Vorpal: my own function. 11:38:58 Velmont: hi oklopol-holder 11:39:05 unify :: HoleyE -> SolidE -> Maybe [(String, SolidE)] 11:39:05 unify (H (Atom s)) (S (Atom t)) | s == t = Just [] 11:39:05 unify (H (Conj xs)) (S (Conj ys)) = fmap concat . sequence $ zipWith unify xs ys 11:39:05 unify (Hole s) x = Just [(s,x)] 11:39:05 unify _ _ = Nothing 11:39:05 elliott, ah that explains why it wasn't in Prelude either 11:39:09 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:39:17 that one is actually pretty 11:39:26 elliott, what are the data types HoleyE and SolidE? 11:39:47 data HoleyE = H (E HoleyE) | Hole String 11:39:48 data SolidE = S (E SolidE) 11:40:10 elliott, Hole being? 11:40:26 Hmm. Why did I cycle? Ah, server problems. Yes. 11:40:29 oh wait 11:40:29 Vorpal: a data constructor? 11:40:36 elliott, right, just woke up 11:40:46 Vorpal: i haven't slept in ... many hours 11:40:50 Vorpal: you'd do better to ask what E is 11:40:56 elliott, I slept for um, 11 hours now 11:40:57 data E e = Atom String | Conj [e] 11:41:06 elliott: I challenge you to stay up as long as meee. 11:41:12 hm 11:41:17 Vorpal: essentially I took 11:41:22 data E = Atom String | Conj [E] 11:41:25 and separated the recursion out 11:41:29 data E e = Atom String | Conj [e] 11:41:33 data SolidE = S (E SolidE) 11:41:38 so now SolidE is equivalent to 11:41:44 E (E (E (E (E ...)))) 11:41:51 just with a data constructor in-between to make haskell happy 11:42:00 then i used this to create 11:42:01 (Where meee = (lambda (x) (me (me (me (x))))).) 11:42:02 data HoleyE = H (E HoleyE) | Hole String 11:42:08 which is E with another constructor added on 11:42:10 hm 11:42:27 elliott, what are you trying to achieve with this? 11:42:34 basically SolidE is an expression, and HoleyE is an expression with placeholders. 11:42:38 Vorpal: it is a term rewriting language 11:42:42 aha 11:42:50 Vorpal: unify and rewrite constitute the entire evaluation engine 11:42:52 now it makes some sense 11:43:08 *Main Control.Monad> someExpr 11:43:08 (car (cons head tail)) 11:43:08 *Main Control.Monad> someRule 11:43:08 ((car (cons 'x 'y)),x) 11:43:08 *Main Control.Monad> rewrite someExpr [someRule] 11:43:09 head 11:43:17 someExpr is a SolidE 11:43:21 someRule is a (HoleyE, SolidE) 11:43:27 'x represents Hole x 11:43:32 (a b c) represents Conj [a,b,c] 11:43:36 and foo represents Atom "foo" 11:43:39 *'x represents Hole "x" 11:43:42 which just shows that you can't figure out most haskell code from the data type names and function names + the type signatures alone. 11:44:34 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 11:45:24 rewrite :: SolidE -> [(HoleyE, SolidE)] -> SolidE 11:45:24 rewrite x ys = 11:45:24 case mapMaybe (\(l,r) -> fmap ((,) r) (unify l x)) ys of 11:45:24 (x',bs):_ -> rewrite x' (map (first atom) bs ++ ys) 11:45:24 [] -> x 11:45:27 it's getting better... 11:45:30 Vorpal: yes you can 11:45:37 you're just insufficiently thoughtful :) 11:45:39 and/or awake 11:45:49 Vorpal: so i'm using firefox, feel free to laugh at me 11:45:56 elliott, why should I? 11:46:05 because i hate firefox! 11:46:16 elliott: When FP is intuitive, you are in a certain state of Zen that can only result from one of a few things, of which lack of is the easiest to come by. 11:46:23 *sleep 11:46:35 -!- wareya has joined. 11:46:42 elliott, as long as you don't use chatzilla you are unlikely to induce laughing 11:46:58 (Highly appropriate that I omitted "sleep" from a sentence about lack thereof.) 11:47:15 Vorpal: I'm using Chatzilla because I am lazy. 11:47:27 evincar, you are not elliott however. 11:47:50 Vorpal: elliott is known for his, ah, well, he's opinionated, eh? 11:48:18 :-D 11:48:26 Y'ALL DIPSHIT FUCKERS ARE WRONG 11:48:43 evincar, I guess you could say that. And I couldn't imagine him using chatzilla for any reason other than 1) because someone said he wouldn't 2) because he is not at his own computer and has no choice, but then he would probably use mibbit 11:49:42 I am slowly remembering how hard caffeine can be on an empty stomach. I need to remember to eat more. 11:49:42 if he now uses chatzilla he of course just proves that (1) holds. 11:49:44 what kind of not-my computer has chatzilla? 11:49:44 :) 11:49:54 Vorpal: i'm too sleep-deprived for that 11:50:01 evincar: porridge, i feel, is good in these situations; i have been eating it 11:50:05 evincar: do you guys even know what porridge it? 11:50:09 *is? 11:50:18 elliott, who knows. Maybe some RL friend's computer? 11:50:24 elliott: Yes, but it's not so common. 11:50:29 Vorpal: i do not comprehend the conjunction of these two terms :) 11:50:32 evincar: it's nice! 11:50:35 ah 11:51:42 evincar: Over here people wouldn't generally know what you were talking about unless you said "oatmeal 11:51:45 " 11:51:47 Typing fail. 11:52:10 *elliott: (the above, less fail). 11:52:12 evincar: oatmeal isn't really the same thing though is it 11:52:15 i mean when people say oatmeal 11:52:21 strange, every night at the same time I get a few UDP packets to the same ports over my ipv6 tunnel from the same ip. Targeted at a specific non-existent IP on my subnet. 11:52:28 they don't mean rolled oats + milk + sugar do they? 11:52:36 to mean a lovely sweet oaty sludge 11:52:42 they mean that but... not sweet and... weird 11:52:51 the source ip is a he.net tunnel, I have a sixxs tunnel. So this makes no sense. 11:52:55 elliott: Oatmeal is just rolled oat porridge. 11:53:09 right, but how do you guys make it? well, when you do 11:53:22 destination ports: a sweep from 33476 to 33480 11:54:06 this night I'll put up tcpdump to actually dump the packets (all 40 bytes according to the ip6tables log) and figure out what they are 11:54:13 elliott: People usually buy the instant variety, that is, packets of oats and usu. dried apple that they add boiling water to to reconstitute into what, if you're lucky, may not turn into a brick in your belly. 11:54:34 evincar: that sounds rather terrible 11:54:35 elliott: People who know better buy plain old oats and work from there. :P 11:54:38 evincar: it's not hard to prepare manually :P 11:55:03 Step one, buy Quaker oats. Their faith in God makes the oats superior. (I can see no other explanation for their obvious superiority over Scots Porage Oats.) 11:55:04 elliott: Of course it sounds rather terrible. I was trying to make it sound terrible. 11:55:11 (Also, as you can see, Scots can't spell. Fuckers.) 11:55:17 Yes, Quaker wins. 11:55:18 Then, milk. 11:55:21 Then, microwave. 11:55:24 Then, more milk! 11:55:25 Then, sugar! 11:55:28 Then, stir! 11:55:29 Eat! 11:55:46 If I have to have oats for breakfast, I think I'd prefer oat cakes and preserves. 11:55:55 And butter. 11:57:08 talking of porridge... how many variants do you have? 11:57:22 Vorpal: @who? 11:57:31 either of you 11:57:37 or both rather 11:58:34 I mean, you can use wheat instead of oats 11:58:41 so oatmeal hardly makes sense 11:58:56 Uh, hard to say. It's all oats, here, and the only real variety comes in the instant brands. Some are better than others, for instance Quaker makes a few good ones such as Simple Harvest, which is a multi-grain one that will make your guts happier than anything on the face of the planet. 11:59:06 Vorpal: porridge here just means rolled oats. 11:59:11 I mean, there's grits... 11:59:11 prepared in the way i describe. 11:59:18 obviously you can add shit to it if you can't handle simplicity. 11:59:29 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Porridge.jpg this is not porridge. 11:59:33 elliott, here it generally means wheat unless you specifically indicates something else 11:59:49 Grits is a corn-based porridgey stuff. 11:59:54 Mostly eaten in the South. 12:00:07 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porridge#Varieties <-- impressive list of different stuff you can use to make porridge! 12:00:38 It bothers me that people outside America don't seem to know the different regions, and especially the different accents. I mean, yeah, most people here couldn't tell you shit about the UK, but I'd like the situation to be improved on both sides. 12:00:46 http://www.inhabitat.com/wp-content/uploads/scotts-oats.jpg THE ENEMY. 12:00:52 rice is a quite common base too around here for it. 12:01:01 http://www.english-shop.de/images/Quaker%20-%20Quaker%20Oats.jpg THE GOOD GUYS. 12:01:15 elliott: What's your accent like? I mean, where are you from? 12:01:21 Vorpal: You too. 12:01:54 evincar, Sweden 12:01:55 evincar: My accent is pretty generic British, I think. Which of rhotic/non-rhotic is typical for Britain? Because I'm that one. 12:02:15 Rhotic = pronounces Rs rather than long vowels. 12:02:26 Britain...eh...well, you can't say. 12:02:30 England is typically non-rhotic. 12:02:34 England, yes. 12:03:13 Vorpal: So you wouldn't really know? 12:03:15 wtf, you call porridge made of rice "rice pudding" according to wikipedia 12:03:18 Or... is it? 12:03:21 Oh, I don't know. 12:03:26 evincar, know accent? 12:03:45 or the regions? 12:03:47 Vorpal: I mean, are you saying you wouldn't know what sort of English accent you have, other than perhaps a Swedish-sounding one? 12:04:20 Vorpal: Rice pudding is a cold, puddingy thing. How is that porridge? 12:04:29 evincar, indeed, I learnt UK English in school though. So Swedish sounding with some RP bits? 12:04:37 Vorpal: fair enough. 12:04:38 evincar, then wikipedia fails somewhere 12:04:45 "Rice pudding, sweetened rice porridges usually made with milk and commonly flavored with butter and baking spices such as cinnamon. In Nordic countries, it is a traditional breakfast for Christmas Eve." 12:04:58 the interwiki is to the porridge thing 12:05:08 and that quote is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porridge#Varieties 12:05:34 Vorpal: Oh, okay. Rice pudding commonly refers to Tapioca pudding. 12:05:49 huh? 12:05:51 * Vorpal googles that 12:05:54 Vorpal: So it's just an issue of terminology. 12:06:05 ah 12:06:17 Again, probably an Americanism. 12:06:38 tree style tabs is so close to perfection, argh :) 12:06:55 I have a semi-typical educated American accent, but it's tinged a bit with New England, which has its own idiosyncracies 12:07:06 *idiosyncrasies 12:07:20 I swear the American accents are optimised for irritatingness. 12:07:23 anyway common porridge bases around here: oats, wheat, rice, (looks at interwiki...) something called "semolina" in English it seems... 12:08:05 ever since i heard lament's lounge version of O Fortuna 12:08:07 Major accents in the US include New England, Eastern, South, Deep South, Appalachian, Great Basin, Midwest, North, Pacific Northwest, and West... 12:08:18 i find it hard to associate it with the orff version 12:08:19 ...and there are loads of subdivisions in all of those. 12:08:23 oh also rye 12:08:25 forgot rye 12:08:33 maybe because I think it is so awful 12:08:37 o for-tu-na / velut lu-na 12:09:00 elliott: You might be thinking of the fact that the only American accents any Brit ever imitates are the Southern hick drawl and the California ditzy girl. :P 12:09:13 evincar: No, just Standard American. 12:09:25 evincar: Seriously. American news programs can be really irritating. (Not talking about Fox.) 12:09:33 It's brash like America. :) 12:09:36 elliott: There is...not really such a thing, just like there's no "Standard English". 12:09:49 i know i know 12:09:49 elliott: I want to hear an example of an accent you find grating. 12:09:52 i basically mean all of them 12:10:00 british accents are nice and that's it :P 12:10:32 yay i found the link 12:10:34 http://filebin.ca/qyxpp/ofortuna.mp3 12:10:38 Egh...I think some American accents are nice, some British accents are nice, some AustralioNewZealandarea accents are nice. It depends on a lot of things, including the personality and voice involved. 12:11:03 elliott, AU accents aren't too bad. Though I guess in the long run they could be irritating as well 12:11:15 i'm going to play this on loop FOREVER 12:11:16 elliott: What is this that I'm hearing? 12:11:25 evincar: lament's lounge version of O Fortuna. 12:11:31 It's quite chill. 12:11:35 evincar: You know it as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrML6s1wNHk 12:12:07 elliott: Oh, yes I do. I sang it in choir. 12:12:23 evincar: Well, congrats; from now on, you will associate it with a chill lounge version. 12:12:59 i'm going to play this on loop FOREVER <-- how do you plan to deal with the heat death of the universe? Compared to "forever" that is quite soon... 12:13:11 Shut UP O FORTUNA! 12:13:12 I'm a deep bass with a large high range. Not falsetto, head voice. I am missing a few notes, though. But it's always fun to surprise people with my low baritone on first meeting them, since I don't weigh much. 12:13:43 People expect skinny guys to have high voices. 12:13:48 Detestable life / now difficult / and then easy! 12:13:50 SO CATCHY 12:13:54 Then again, people don't give a damn about singers with low voices. :( 12:13:59 (Admittedly I translated it^W^Wused Wikipedia's translation.) 12:14:04 evincar: Have to do this: 12:14:07 evincar: CHOCOLATE RAIN 12:14:16 evincar: SOME STAY DRY AND OTHERS FEEL THE PAIN 12:14:38 elliott: I will record myself singing that song if you give me an example of a general American accent you find grating. 12:15:04 i actually guess most american accents are fine 12:15:05 it's just 12:15:10 some of them are really terrible :) 12:15:19 Oh, undoubtedly. 12:15:39 I just love language stuff, so I'm interested in how we're viewed. Or, heard, rather. 12:17:43 the concepts of weeks make so little sense. 12:18:01 makes* 12:18:37 Vorpal: You're quite right...segmenting time in a running period that doesn't line up with the rest of the calendar? What the heck? 12:18:43 for a start, the 52 weeks / year thingy? Not true for either normal or leap years. 12:19:08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYmrg3owTRE 12:19:16 weeks are awesome 12:19:21 calenders are for ... RACISTS!!! 12:19:24 i am incoheroehroehoehor 12:19:27 *calendar 12:19:39 7*52 is in fact 364 days 12:19:52 that's what she said. 12:20:15 -!- cheater_ has quit (Disconnected by services). 12:20:21 elliott: This is a disappointing video. All of the slang is from black pop-rap. : 12:20:24 | 12:20:32 I'm so neutral my mouth fell off. 12:20:50 elliott, you just passed the point between "sleep deprived and quite jolly" and "sleep deprived and incomprehensible" 12:21:07 i can go back 12:21:12 evincar: All of the American slang, sure :P 12:21:15 I hardly knew any of the supposed American slang, but had heard most of the supposed British. 12:21:21 elliott, thanks 12:21:34 Vorpal: but only after WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOowoOOOoooOOOOOoooOOooo 12:21:36 ok'y 12:21:38 hi 12:22:00 elliott, maybe a bitmask would be a better representation of these states... 12:22:07 Your mother's a bitmask. 12:22:28 elliott: "Badonkadonk? That's a fantastic word." Hugh purrs. 12:23:11 I recall a particularly memorable moment in House when Hugh Laurie got the chance to, while putting on an excellent American accent, put on a terrible British accent. 12:23:15 Which was just glorious. 12:23:22 Hah, that sounds familiar. 12:23:53 Daniel Radcliffe appeared on Ellen and did a solid Northeastern American. 12:26:58 elliott: Do you think it's fair to say that Americans doing British accents usually end up sounding either way too posh or way too "Oi fink oi'm tehnin into a Ci'y Bri'ish"? 12:27:13 *in'ew 12:27:26 evincar: i think it's safe to say that i have seen few try, presumably because they're not idiotic enough to think they could pull it off 12:28:09 elliott: Makes sense. Oh, lemme look something up. 12:29:35 elliott: A friend of mine attempting (and not accomplishing) a "British accent": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DUqw3R8KnI 12:30:14 7 seconds in and i want to stab someone 12:30:19 what an achievement! 12:30:35 elliott: I know, she's a nice girl but she makes me cringe. :P 12:31:01 But this is an example of "too posh", I think, but also just awkward. 12:31:14 At one point she slips into something that sounds more like Edinburgh. :P 12:34:49 https://addons.mozilla.org/img/uploads/previews/full/11/11593.png?modified=0 12:36:02 elliott: What is this dark magic? 12:36:08 "Fox Splitter" 12:36:10 Split Browser? 12:36:11 Oh. 12:36:13 Same idea. 12:36:34 evincar: same extension 12:36:35 just got renamed 12:36:44 Ah, there you go. 12:44:14 THE CONVERSATION MUST NOT DIE 12:44:42 FRATERTRETERT 12:50:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:50:04 elliott: I think it's about time I quit and started preparing for the day ahead. 12:50:11 ais523: Oh hai. 12:50:19 evincar: Seriously? 12:50:25 evincar: I thought you were going to stay up ridiculous times. 12:50:32 Oh, wait. 12:50:33 Misparsed. 12:50:34 elliott: Well, I have class in an hour and change. 12:50:55 Yeah, I meant like take a shower and brush my teeth and stuff. 12:51:23 DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO QUIT IRC! 12:51:24 Hi ais523. 12:51:40 hi elliott 12:51:46 I'm in a seminar, but it hasn't started yet 12:52:13 Seminarl! wow that was terrible 12:52:20 ais523: I'm sleep-deprived; isn't that fun? 12:52:23 That is fun! 12:52:33 elliott: you're acting sleep-deprived, at least 12:52:43 what caused it? did you stay up all night worrying about Vorpal's exam? 12:52:53 * ais523 picks the most recent sleep-deprivation cause mentioned in this channel 12:52:59 see, extrapolation, it's science! 12:53:06 ais523: yes, yes I did 12:53:17 ais523: I was so worried he might pass, thus furthering his education and potentially putting him in a future position of power. 12:53:19 I worried all night. 12:53:41 ais523: It's true, every word. We changed the logs to protect the guilty. 12:54:04 ais523: Or, if you're concerned with things such as facts, it's because as of yesterday my sleep schedule was precisely upside down, and I have to be up at 9 am tomorrow. 12:54:40 ah 12:54:54 that happens to me quite a bit 12:55:08 having a regular timetable seems to help solve it, but I'm not sure if it's necessarily worth solving 12:55:26 ais523: yeah school usually ... "helps" 12:55:52 did you have half-term last week? 12:55:55 ais523: I'm just going to start taking melatonin if I keep being as sleepcrastinaty as I have been. 12:56:03 Yes. 12:56:23 elliott: What for? 12:56:27 evincar: ? 12:56:30 [[Iceweasel, an extension or a plugin has been installed, upgraded or removed by the system. 12:56:30 It is strongly recommended to restart Iceweasel. 12:56:30 Do you want to restart it now?]] 12:56:45 elliott: "Half-term". 12:57:04 evincar: It's a holiday half-way through the high school and lower "term". 12:57:12 Lasting a week. 12:57:34 elliott, no school today? 12:57:40 indeed 12:57:48 hm 12:57:54 elliott, what about tomorrow? 12:58:00 yes tomorrow 12:58:13 It's time for me to quit and get ready for MY seven hours of class, thank you very much. 12:58:28 evincar: I saw the word "semen" in that sentence. 12:58:31 And I'm not even sure where. 12:58:34 evincar, 7 hours? can't be university then 12:58:36 Whoo, my reading abilities are declining. 12:58:37 "seven, time". 12:58:46 Vorpal: University indeed. 12:58:47 It was probably seven, yeah. 12:58:58 Those pesky m-looking vs. 12:59:06 The talk was good tonight, anyway. 12:59:10 oh well, seminar time 12:59:12 evincar, huh, generally for me it is spread out all over the week so you have 2 hours there, and then an hour free and then two hours somewhere else 12:59:21 I'll keep the channel posted on that language. 12:59:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:59:26 Vorpal: *day presumably 12:59:39 elliott, ? 12:59:47 well what you said made little sense 12:59:47 Vorpal: I have a weird schedule this quarter. 1 hour on Mondays and Wednesdays, then seven solid on Tuesdays and Thursdays. :P 12:59:54 oh wait i see 12:59:56 nm 13:00:12 majorly inconvenient, not enough time to go home during between since it takes about 1.5 hours home by bus from university 13:00:21 evincar, ah 13:00:37 Vorpal: That sucks for you. At least I have the luxury of living on campus. 13:00:55 evincar, technically I had 6 hour labs, though almost always I finished before half the time. 13:01:07 evincar, cheaper to live with parents :P 13:01:21 Vorpal: BUT I THOUGHT SWEDEN PAID FOR EVERYTHING 13:01:23 evincar, and by car it takes much less. Half an hour or so. 13:01:52 Vorpal: Parents are seven hours away. :P And the longest class I ever had that consistently lasted that long was the four-hour critique sessions for my life drawing class back when I was an art major. 13:01:53 wait 13:01:59 s/^ // 13:02:01 evincar, ah 13:02:06 why can't i resize my columns in emacs 13:02:08 easy to resize rows 13:02:10 but columns no 13:02:10 ??? 13:02:21 elliott: What do you mean by "resize columns"? 13:02:23 evincar, what do you study now? 13:02:29 i mean resize the split columns 13:02:55 Vorpal: I moved from New Media Design and Imaging to New Media Interactive Development. They're both interactive media majors, but one's geared toward art and the other toward programming. 13:03:05 evincar, heh 13:03:16 evincar, CS for me 13:03:25 well, rather modern CS sadly 13:04:00 Vorpal: It should be obvious that I don't really need the programming study, but it's better for me to have a science degree than one in arts. 13:04:08 I originally went into the design major because, you know, I'm better at programming, so I wanted to round out my education. 13:04:13 evincar, mhm 13:04:21 I did well, but it wasn't satisfying. 13:04:22 Vorpal: I moved from New Media Design and Imaging to New Media Interactive Development. They're both interactive media majors, but one's geared toward art and the other toward programming. 13:04:26 those both sound like the most obnoxious things ever 13:04:45 evincar, that doesn't work because you wouldn't have papers to show future employers that you knew programming 13:05:03 elliott, hah 13:05:12 i'm not joking, they do. 13:05:12 elliott: Not really. It's just the university's blanket term for game design, web design, and other interactive stuff. 13:05:19 i stand by my opinion :) 13:05:24 it's not even software engineering! 13:05:37 uh uh 13:05:50 elliott, saying that means he must loath whatever it is 13:05:57 s/,// 13:05:57 elliott: Look, I can study high-level and esoteric theoretical computer science on my own time. In school I want to be forced to practice marketable skills so I don't let them atrophy. 13:06:00 damn dab complete 13:06:07 tab* 13:06:29 Vorpal: i don't actually mind software engineering 13:06:34 Vorpal: i just wish it wasn't taught as CS 13:06:38 elliott, ah 13:07:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:07:20 elliott: And New Media majors have to take programming and software engineering in addition to mathematics and art and interface design and user experience design. 13:07:37 ha, i shudder to think what a modern UI design course looks like. 13:08:07 elliott: Not so bad, actually. The jury is in on what constitutes good graphic design for user interfaces. :P 13:08:19 no comment 13:08:31 Vorpal: so have you slept yet 13:08:36 Hint: it's exactly the same as good graphic design in general. 13:08:37 oh or did you just sleep 13:08:42 right you just slept for ages 13:08:50 evincar: if i talk i'll argue so just don't 13:08:55 Baaah I really need to go, yeah. 13:09:04 I'll talk to you guys later. 13:09:06 elliott, ah, I didn't even have time to type "see scrollback" before you answered yourself :P 13:09:16 not that I would have done that 13:09:37 evincar: woof 13:09:46 (I had got to "as I said before, I " when you answered yourself) 13:09:50 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: Later, pup.). 13:09:52 gotten* 13:10:48 bbiab 13:32:42 i love how my type recursion is reflected everywhere 13:32:42 Vorpal: I moved from New Media Design and Imaging to New Media Interactive Development. They're both interactive media majors, but one's geared toward art and the other toward programming. 13:32:43 erm 13:32:46 e :: (EC e) => Parser e -> Parser e 13:32:47 e ee = atom <$> identifier 13:32:47 <|> conj <$> many1 ee 13:32:48 holey :: Parser HoleyE 13:32:50 holey = e holey <|> (char '\'' >> hole <$> identifier) 13:32:59 and 13:33:00 solid :: Parser SolidE 13:33:00 solid = e solid 13:54:54 Ballot Title 13:54:54 Statement of Subject: Initiative Measure No. 1069 concerns the state seal. 13:54:55 Concise Description: This measure would require the Washington State Seal to depict a tapeworm attached to a taxpayer’s intestine, encircled by the words: Committed to sucking the life blood out of each and every taxpayer. 13:54:55 Should this measure be enacted into law? Yes [ ] No [ ] 13:54:55 Ballot Measure Summary 13:54:56 This measure would require the Seal of the State of Washington to be changed to depict a vignette of a tapeworm dressed in a three piece suit attached to the lower intestine of a taxpayer shown as the central figure. The seal would be required to be encircled with the following words: “Committed to sucking the life blood out of each and every tax payer.” The illustration would be selected from subm 13:55:01 issions submitted by taxpayers. 13:59:06 back 14:00:08 elliott, wtf 14:21:32 "The Firefox logo, the very reason why Iceweasel exists, is now free as in speech. Its use is still limited by trademarks, but it is free." 14:21:33 as of this year 14:21:39 http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/99d80bc3f18b 14:22:42 "Hacking for Christ" -- a worse blog title, i cannot imagine. 14:22:55 [[Yes, I'm a Christian, and I am one because I am convinced that two thousand years ago, God walked on the earth in order to reveal himself to us. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, predicted in advance, show that he was not merely a 'good man' or even just a prophet. He brought a message of the need to turn away from our rebellion against God (what the Bible calls "sin"), and he made availabl 14:22:55 e free, unconditional forgiveness for past and future sins to all who put their trust in him.]] 14:22:58 Well, yes, you're crazy. 14:27:25 -!- sftp has joined. 14:28:08 -!- alcatraz has joined. 14:28:50 -!- alcatraz has left (?). 14:29:55 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:32:28 hi ais523 14:33:45 I thought the trademark thing -- "you can't call it Firefox if you do changes we don't like" -- was the main reason they had to rebrand it to Iceweasel. Sure, the logo was non-free copyright-wise, so they dropped the logo and still called the browser Firefox, and then the Mozilla folks complained that you can't do that. (Admittedly I haven't really followed it that much.) 14:34:02 hi elliott 14:41:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:41:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:42:13 fizzie: Actually, the logo was the main reason. 14:42:22 ais523: I've been interesting-tarpitting! 14:52:45 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:57:23 -!- nooga has joined. 15:07:49 Heh, they've replaced gconf. 15:46:48 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 15:49:48 "Why haven't KDE and Xfce merged? Can they merge or does the source code not go good together? I know you can run them side by side, but I want Xfce and KDE to merge into one awesome DE (Desktop Environment)! If they could merge or if anyone knows a way to merge them then it would be better than e17 and/or Gnome, at least for me." --Ubuntu Forums 15:53:25 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:58:44 Whoa, Linux didn't use revision control until 2002. 16:02:04 * Sgeo wants everyone to stop torrenting him already 16:02:11 what 16:02:55 Or downloading me 16:02:58 http://freshwap.net/284/dl/sgeo 16:03:54 It's pretty clear that it will claim that there are links for anything you search for 16:04:10 The real mystery is how Google Alerts managed to find it as containing sgeo 16:56:23 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:59:14 good afternoon 17:01:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:07:23 elliott: you there? 17:17:26 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:20:48 Jackoz, you square? 17:21:15 I ln :( 17:22:29 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:23:17 -!- jcp has joined. 17:36:45 -!- Zuu has quit (*.net *.split). 17:36:45 -!- Ilari has quit (*.net *.split). 17:36:45 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (*.net *.split). 17:36:45 -!- Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split). 17:36:51 -!- Zuu has joined. 17:36:51 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 17:36:51 -!- Zuu has joined. 17:37:09 -!- Vorpal has joined. 17:40:43 huh 17:44:12 -!- Ilari has joined. 17:46:02 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 18:02:04 -!- tombom has joined. 18:03:29 -!- xtreme has joined. 18:03:39 hello 18:11:22 Is it me, or did this channel suddenly become 18:11:25 EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEME 18:12:06 xcellent 18:17:36 xtreme even IRCs as root 18:17:40 cuz hes xtreme 18:19:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:20:05 elliott: I need an advice 18:20:34 since you seem quite fond of functional programming :) 18:22:20 hi 18:22:32 excuse me 18:23:18 xtreme: Yes, we're all aware you're here, you have to actually say something with substance to get a meaningful response :P 18:23:23 it channel is wikipedia? 18:23:45 * Gregor elliott ... O_O ... that was the wtfiest thing ever said on IRC. 18:23:52 YAY 18:23:53 Err 18:24:01 xtreme: I have no idea what that means :P 18:24:37 xtreme: Yes, it channel is Wikipedia. 18:25:51 thanks 18:27:06 what you make here? 18:27:28 xtreme: We make spells and knowledge. 18:28:36 this thing is curious 18:28:48 I mean asking if *it* channel is Wikiedia 18:29:12 kkk 18:29:22 who are you? 18:29:25 xtreme: ah yes, we are racists too 18:29:31 the kkk are good friends of ours 18:31:12 -!- xtreme has left (?). 18:31:25 ;___; 18:31:25 you played that one too hard :( 18:31:37 RIP #esoteric's xtremeness 2010 -- KKK 18:32:00 do you think he was looking for esoteric issues? 18:32:10 I think he was confused, and I have no idea. 18:33:41 ANYWHO 18:33:43 Moving on :P 18:34:18 There's a Finnish grocery store chain ran by a company called Kesko; their stores used to be called "K-kauppa" ("K-store") way back when; then they clustered the stores by size so that the smallest ones have one K, "regular"-sized ones are "market"s with two K's (so "KK-market"), big ones are "supermarket"s with three ("KKK-supermarket") and huge ones are "citymarket"s with four ("KKKK-citymarket"). 18:34:41 For some reason you don't much see signage with the full "KKK-supermarket" name nowadays, it's mostly just "K-supermarket". 18:34:49 Krazy Ku Klux Klan 18:35:15 There's a picture of one at http://failblog.org/2008/08/19/supermarket-fail/ 18:36:57 EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEME <-- how so? 18:37:04 X_X 18:37:05 Nice comments: "It's not fake, it's in Finland." Yeah, that's pretty much synonymous. 18:37:10 Vorpal fail 18:37:26 fizzie: I'm not convinced that Finland actually exists. 18:37:42 Gregor, meme? 18:37:58 Vorpal: "xtreme" had just joined the channel X_X 18:38:02 oh 18:38:03 right 18:38:13 Gregor, was there a netsplit or something when I quit? 18:38:20 * Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split) 18:38:42 In other words, yes. 18:38:55 (But it was easier to copy-paste than to type four characters.) 18:39:01 (Except that now I had to explain.) 18:39:04 (And I'm still doing it.) 18:39:25 fizzie: I'm not convinced that Finland actually exists. 18:39:36 As we have discussed, there are three people in Finland, and five of them are in this channel. 18:39:38 One of them drives the bus. 18:39:46 fizzie, probably a leaf since I lost connection to the server 18:39:47 Gregor: Yeah, well, I'm not convinced that YOU do! Or your MOM. 18:40:12 Or your FACE. 18:42:47 There's a rather popular (well, in Finland) Twitter account called "sporakuski" ("tram driver", colloquially), where a tram driver tweets about all the stuff he does to annoy customers. ("How fast does the tram go when it's full of old ladies? As fast as it can! AHAHA!" and so on.) 18:43:05 There's a picture of one at http://failblog.org/2008/08/19/supermarket-fail/ <-- the comments are sad, they fail to take into account the different language and so on 18:44:01 Well, it *is* the fail blog. 18:44:47 hah 18:47:11 fizzie: Don't you mean the bus driver? 18:47:36 fizzie: "830 followers" -- that counts as rather popular in Finland? 18:47:48 I guess it's an achievement considering there's only two Finns who could friend him. 18:47:54 Friend, follow, whatever. 18:48:11 elliott: Well, he seems to have stopped tweeting in February, so maybe people have unfollowed. 18:48:45 fizzie: That would be a strange reason to unfollow someone as it has no effect on you and you wouldn't be able to see if he started again. 18:49:00 Here's a Klan Market pretty near my place -- been there several times -- assuming I managed to do a Google Street View link right: http://p.zem.fi/kkk-market 18:49:46 fizzie: Whoa, they know which way the walls of the building curve. 18:49:47 Scary. 18:50:03 That's from the laser range-finders, I think. It is scary indeed. 18:51:12 fizzie: I don't want Google to know that :( 18:53:18 * Sgeo decides to attempt to watch the black hole episode of SG-1 again 18:53:32 * Sgeo tries not to have an aneurism 18:53:39 Sgeo: *aneurysm 18:53:49 I have a link here I think elliott would really like, but I'm afraid it would be a time-waster. 18:53:53 I will never learn how to spell that word 18:53:54 thus it would be evil to paste it 18:55:11 Vorpal: I don't mind. 18:55:17 I have time to kill until sleep. 18:55:25 http://www.google.com/chart?cht=tx&chl=x^2 <-- Apparently LaTeX rendering counts as a chart now. Who knew? 18:55:57 elliott, you know the evil overlord list of things to do/don't do? Well, tvtropes has a link-heavy version of it. Plus this additional list: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesAdditionalEvilOverlordVows 18:56:22 Vorpal: Ooh, that's SUBJECTIVE! 18:56:26 They should move it to a TroperTales page. 18:56:31 elliott, hah 18:57:01 elliott, wait, the trope names are subjective, how do they deal with that? 18:57:16 Vorpal: with the power of idiocy 18:57:58 elliott, hah 18:58:59 elliott, hypothesis: the size of a wiki and the stupidity of the editing rules are directly proportional. 18:59:25 Vorpal: hmm, C2 isn't exactly big, but it's not tiny either, and their policies are almost universally good 18:59:28 just look at wikipedia 18:59:33 On the other hand, it *is* old-school. 18:59:38 Well, the oldest school. 18:59:43 indeed 19:00:06 elliott, wikipedia has loads of stupidity, tvtropes recently started getting some 19:06:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:17:35 -!- Jackoz has quit (Quit: Page closed). 19:19:30 I am now on the verge of physically strangling my computer. 19:19:42 After Googling where a computer's trachea is, of course. 19:23:35 Vorpal: Well, this is a first. 19:23:46 Vorpal: I have just seen someone argue that giving away software for free is *wrong*. As in morally. 19:23:51 Your own software. That you made. 19:23:53 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:25:14 elliott, uh 19:25:20 elliott, how did he/she justify it? 19:25:35 It's in the context of mobile apps, but still: 19:25:39 "Let's not beat around the bush. Free apps are evil. [...] When you make an app that you've sweated over and spent days crafting—so it's as good as it can be—you owe it to yourself to charge for that app. Otherwise what you're saying is your app is worthless; it's literally not worth even a small amount of someones hard earned cash. What, not even the cost of chocolate bar? Seriously can this be ri 19:25:39 ght?" 19:25:57 The entire, mind-numbingly colossal idiocy: http://brendandawes.posterous.com/great-work-is-worth-paying-for-why-free-apps 19:26:27 The post after that one on this moron's blog: "This looks fantastic. Nodebox meets Processing." 19:26:33 My initial guess would've been some sort of "teach a man to fish" logic, about not giving other people ready-made stuff; I wouldn't have guessed *that*. 19:26:34 Hmm, NodeBox and Processing. 19:26:38 Two open-source applications. 19:26:43 Distributed freely over the Internet. 19:26:52 Both worthless. 19:26:53 Oh, and running on OS X, based, at the bottom of it all, on FreeBSD. 19:26:59 Open source... 19:27:05 hahah 19:27:05 Distributed freely over the Internet... 19:27:08 and not even a chocolate bar. 19:27:23 elliott, do you expect idiocy to actually be consistent? 19:27:37 Hell no. 19:27:47 "Amazing birthday present from Lisa: an F78 Henning Andreasen phone!" 19:27:47 good 19:27:50 She gave you that birthday present for nothing? 19:27:56 I guess she didn't think it was worth anything. 19:28:01 Looks like you got punk'd, my friend. 19:28:09 elliott, you have to post this in the comments. 19:28:16 I am far too lazy for that. 19:28:30 And he'd make some ridiculous "well, it only applies to devices you can fit in your pocket" excuse. 19:29:11 http://www.brendandawes.com/project/mac-osx-hard-drive-icons/ 19:29:15 You are offering these icons for free? 19:29:20 Then, they are worthless, I presume? 19:29:23 Why would I want them? 19:34:23 elliott, how'd you come across it? 19:35:13 Phantom_Hoover: links from places that link to link that etc 19:37:15 "You can download the source files for the presentation but note you'll need to grab the various libraries yourself - it won't run without them." 19:37:17 For FREE?! 19:38:26 -!- cheater99 has joined. 19:47:41 elliott, huh, someone just spammed #freenode with a message that included "/join #freenode" 19:48:06 heh 19:48:10 elliott, and again 19:48:21 well he got klined 19:48:32 wait no, killed 19:48:45 Vorpal: aww 19:48:47 paste the spam here? 19:48:59 elliott, it will probably show up again soon enough 19:49:06 elliott, since it already did once after the first kill 19:49:58 elliott, if it doesn't show up soon I'll paste it or something, though it really wasn't that interesting apart from the fact I mentioned 19:50:24 * elliott wonders if RPM has been unfairly maligned 19:50:29 what are the standard criticisms again? 19:51:02 It's Red Had 19:51:04 *Hat 19:51:15 not sure, my main criticism of it is the experience of RPM hell 19:51:21 and that it is cpio-based iirc 19:51:22 which has, admittedly, been making me money 19:51:37 as has Hasbro 19:52:17 coppro ports uh 19:52:21 no, can't figure that one out 19:52:42 Vorpal: Isn't RPM hell just... I mean, how is it different from the hypothetical "deb hell"? 19:52:55 cpio -- well, debs are freakin' ars 19:53:06 elliott, well, deb hell never happened. 19:53:24 Vorpal: Then what *is* RPM hell? 19:53:35 Would deb hell require generally installing individual debs instead of using apt? 19:53:37 And was it RPM's fault, or just bad distribution managers? I have never seen a satisfactory explanation. 19:53:51 elliott, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependency_hell#Platform-specific 19:54:11 "# RPM hell - A form of dependency hell occurring in the Red Hat distribution of Linux and other distributions that use RPM as a package manager[3]." 19:54:13 elliott, I think it might have been a combination of red hat and rpm. This was back on red hat 5 or so 19:54:15 Does not explain a thing. 19:54:31 elliott, see the entire article for what dependency hell is 19:54:44 I know what dependency hell is, Vorpal. 19:54:46 I am not a moron. 19:54:53 However, I do not see how it is specific to .rpm, rather than .deb and the like too. 19:55:35 * Phantom_Hoover decides to reinstall Ubuntu from scratch. 19:55:48 Serves me right for listening to Vorpal. 19:55:50 elliott, true, iirc old versions of RPM was prone to this due to not having very good ways to specify dependencies. This was so long ago I don't remember the details... 19:55:55 Phantom_Hoover, what? 19:56:22 elliott, stuff like not being able to say "needs a version between x and y of package z" but only "need package z" or "need package z version w" 19:56:33 Well, that's an unfair slander, but this computer is being unbearable and I won't stand for it any longer. 19:56:59 elliott: according to a quick google, RPM hell was really the problem of the central repos being sparse, and so you'd have to use other repos which would install conflicting versions of libraries sometimes 19:57:10 Phantom_Hoover, err okay. So I was not involved in whatever it was? Good. 19:57:22 coppro, that too 19:58:00 Vorpal, well, you delayed me by 3 days, so you must bear some responsibility. 19:58:02 coppro, and the limited dependency specification support of old versions of rpm didn't help 19:58:03 coppro: Right. So now everyone is afraid of rpm for no reason. :) 19:58:06 Anyway, rebooting now. 19:58:06 but apparently the RPM structure is generally bad with dealing with awkward situations 19:58:12 Vorpal: Seen the spam. 19:58:17 coppro, indeed, though not as bad as it used to be 19:58:19 such a half-complete upgrades 19:58:24 elliott, right 19:58:31 Vorpal: I wonder why they want people to use SASL so much. 19:58:45 elliott, the spammers you mean? Who knows. 20:00:28 There is a ##comment-on-spam channel 20:00:38 Yes. Yes there is. 20:00:41 wtf 20:00:49 Vorpal, well, you delayed me by 3 days, so you must bear some responsibility. <-- how 20:02:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:02:31 elliott, I remember getting a version conflict on glibc on red hat 20:09:34 The Slackware libc5 → glibc update was... somewhat problematical, too. Slackware and package management, though... 20:18:28 I am not quite hardcore enough for Slackware. 20:19:04 Tarball + dependency list + install/uninstall script + list of non-configuration files so uninstall works + simple package manager that just recurses if there's unsatisfied dependencies. 20:19:10 I think that's the minimum I could live with. 20:20:17 Now to find an acceptable form of identification so I can vote. 20:20:30 My driver's license is missing, so can't do that. 20:20:39 pikhq, signature... 20:20:45 I just needed to sign 20:21:05 But then again, registering to vote... I think it may be a bit late for that 20:21:14 I already did register. 20:21:22 Still need identification to vote. 20:21:43 pikhq is going to write-in Sarah Palin. In every box. Yes, including *those* boxes. 20:21:51 Birth Certificate counts. 20:22:09 I didn't vote in each race 20:22:17 Just the ones I had some inkling of a clue about 20:22:43 Even though I saw Tax Revolt Party in some races. After I voted, I kept wondering if I should have voted against them. 20:23:09 A fucking birth certificate counts. 20:23:10 Congratulations -- the US has managed to convince you that voting is about voting against *them*, not voting for *them*. 20:23:18 pikhq: DEN I GUESS OBAMA CAN'T VOTE HUH? 20:23:54 Sgeo: "The Tax Revolt Party benefits from New York's electoral fusion laws that permit a single candidate to receive endorsements from multiple parties. The Tax Revolt Party only endorses Republican Party candidates." 20:24:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:25:14 If I tell the Ubuntu installer to use a partition as an ext4 filesystem and mount it at a location, but don't tick the "format" box, does it just mount it and leave it alone? 20:25:16 I can imagine voting for a Republican some day. If said Republican were to break with party on HCR, and supported LGBT rights 20:25:46 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. 20:25:52 Good. 20:25:56 Or the Democrat were to do something incredibly offensive 20:26:02 Phantom_Hoover: Note: If you lose your data, it's not my problem. 20:26:12 ... As does any other government documentation that has name and address on it. 20:26:16 Or idiotic [ not knowing amendments, say ] 20:26:35 That's a shitty-ass requirement. 20:26:35 I'd vote for a Republican if they were entirely unlike a Republican and the Democrats were unpalatable! 20:26:59 elliott: goddamn it, I need a definite answer here. 20:27:07 Phantom_Hoover: it won't wipe it. 20:27:19 but if it *does*, by some weird turn of events, you cannot hold me responsible 20:28:11 I won't risk it. 20:28:35 Manually setting it up should be easy enough. 20:28:44 Howcome one can't nick to "Q"? 20:28:46 Phantom_Hoover: ... 20:28:50 Phantom_Hoover: It *will not wipe your drive*. 20:28:59 Phantom_Hoover: You are confusing a "cover my ass clause" with an "unsureness clause". 20:29:03 Phantom_Hoover: Also: 20:29:09 Phantom_Hoover: Before formatting ANY partitions, the installer TELLS YOU it's going to. 20:29:18 elliott: yeah, that's not why. 20:29:19 So if you don't tick format, and it doesn't list it, it won't be formatted. 20:29:30 Phantom_Hoover: ...it is *designed to be able to do this* 20:29:37 Huh 20:29:58 So Freenode cares that people not confuse a user Q from a services Q on another network 20:30:45 elliott: OK, call me paranoid. It's next to no extra work and a lot of worrying off my mind. 20:31:04 Phantom_Hoover: Not paranoid; crazy. The Ubuntu installer cannot wipe any partition without displaying it in the preceding step first. 20:31:35 elliott: yes, I'm not worried about accidental formatting, more overwriting during the installation process. Probably crazy as well. 20:31:42 ...what? 20:32:18 I really can't be bothered getting into this over what is, ultimately, an utterly trivial matter. 20:34:02 In other news, I am informed that I will become a hopeless deadbeat with no prospects in life unless I write an essay on a poem. 20:34:43 Yay for the education system! 20:35:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Page closed). 20:35:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:35:56 -!- augur has joined. 20:40:39 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:41:37 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 20:51:04 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 20:51:37 -!- FireFly has joined. 20:52:41 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:53:15 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 21:17:13 I just realized: when allocating pages you may need to allocate pages for page tables 21:18:23 then again, seemingly very difficult things always turn out to be the easy parts, and vice versa 21:23:25 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm2glu3WLGk 21:23:36 Is this by the same Tool whose lyrics I'm supposed to hate? 21:25:09 * pikhq finished voting 21:25:26 :D 21:26:12 "Tuesday voters were advised to pay special attention to the ballot itself, which included at least one error. It did not properly instruct voters to fill in the oval below the name of the candidate of their choice." 21:26:14 .... 21:26:48 It looked like the oval I filled in was in the same box 21:26:54 But it wasn't below the name 21:29:54 lolol 21:30:14 this problem would be solved if they used voting machines right? 21:30:45 This election, we switched from lever-based voting machines to filling in a paper ballot and scanning them in 21:31:28 scanned paper ballots are sensible. Easy counting but also verifiable 21:31:45 * Sgeo agrees 21:33:09 http://www.theonion.com/articles/election-day-guide,8124/ 21:34:39 lol 21:40:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:48:00 "Document is currently being inspected. Please allow 7-10 days. No action is required by you at this time." It's been in that state 13 days now! The liars. 22:02:26 ais523: hi 22:02:31 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 22:06:45 ais523: you've been rather quite all day... 22:07:56 Yes. 22:07:57 Quite rather. 22:08:00 Quite, quite rather. 22:08:03 Oh, you said rather quite. 22:08:04 Well, that too. 22:08:12 *quiet 22:08:15 :P 22:15:34 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm2glu3WLGk 22:15:34 Is this by the same Tool [...] 22:15:45 There's only one Tool, but, uhh, that's a cover in case you can't tell :P 22:15:55 -!- augur has joined. 22:20:15 * Sgeo still wants there to be a single page on which he can see all his YouTube favorites (over 1000) 22:20:33 The fact that you have over a thousand YouTube favourites speaks very, very deep things. 22:21:54 My polling place is in the elementary school I used to attend... 22:26:11 Sgeo: Wait wait -- don't tell me -- it made you nostalgic. 22:26:43 He recorded a video of himself voting, put it on YouTube, and favorited it. 22:26:57 It was over six hours long, so he broke it into 10 minute segments and favorited each of them. 22:31:06 Gregor: I am trying to imagine the circumstances where Sgeo takes six hours to vote :P 22:31:21 elliott: IT WAS A VERY DIFFICULT DECISION 22:31:38 WARNING: You selected a non-Republican candidate. Please note that if you submit this vote, all existing copies of Active Worlds will be destroyed. 22:31:50 Me using my phone to ask various IRC channels who to vote for. 22:32:01 Sgeo: Pretty sure you actually did that 22:32:25 Am I not correct??? 22:32:34 Yes, you are not correct. 22:32:42 Sgeo: Rule #1 of voting in the US: DO NOT VOTE FOR THE REPUBLICAN. 22:33:02 Rule #2 of voting in the US: FAIRLY LIKELY, DON'T VOTE FOR THE DEMOCRAT EITHER. 22:33:03 Sgeo: Rule #2: Accept that you are voting between "shitty" and "fucking nuts". 22:33:37 Sgeo: Rule #3: Don't like it, engage in armed revolution. The politicians will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes. 22:34:52 * Sgeo under-voted 22:34:53 Rule #4: Turns out your vote means something like jack shit in New York under a fundamentally broken election system and two-party system! But don't throw away your vote by voting for who you'd actually like to see; THE REPUBLICAN MIGHT WIN 22:35:02 And then the SKY WOULD FALL 22:35:15 -!- Sgeo has left (?). 22:35:22 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:35:23 I think we upset Sgeo 22:35:25 Oh. 22:35:52 WTF is the combination key+touchpad movement that tells XChat "Oh, hey, go ahead, part this channel"? 22:38:52 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:38:59 pikhq never voted in the 2008 election! 22:39:45 pikhq shot a man in Reno just to watch him die. 22:40:28 -!- augur has joined. 22:42:50 pikhq isn't denying it 'cuz it's true. 22:43:59 elliott: The US system is so broken that you actually have no sane option but to vote defensively. It is fucking nuts. 22:44:42 pikhq: If I was in the US, I'd use reliable predicted results to determine what the risk of the Republicans getting in is; if it's sufficiently low, I'd vote honestly. 22:45:48 elliott: That is indeed defensive voting. 22:46:09 pikhq: I've never heard of anyone do that; most idiots just vote Democrat no matter what because OMG REPUBLICANS. 22:46:13 elliott: In my area the Democrats need every single vote they can get to avoid the anti-tax crazies. 22:46:26 You know what, if everyone wasn't so chickenshit, the two party system could be broken. 22:46:41 I think that's worth a Republican candidate winning once or twice in the process. 22:46:48 elliott: I had to vote against 4 *different* ballot measures that would essentially bankrupt the state. 22:47:01 Well, yeah. That's different. 22:47:08 elliott: 22:47:11 They said something about ballot measures on the back. I didn't see any 22:47:12 pikhq: 22:47:34 Or maybe it said it on the ballot, which makes sense, why vary the instructions? 22:47:49 elliott: And the Republicans had a decent chance of winning. Including the guy who thinks that a bike sharing program is a UN plot to take over the US. 22:47:53 pikhq, what measures? 22:48:01 pikhq: Of course it is. 22:48:12 I don't think I'd be able to determine that they could bankrupt the state 22:49:48 Sgeo: Amendment R, which would remove property taxes for individuals or businesses who use government-owned property for a private benefit. 22:49:59 Sgeo: Amendment 60, which would halve property taxes. 22:50:15 I don't think I'd vote on economic issues 22:50:17 Sgeo: Amendment 61, which would forbit the state government from ever taking out loans. 22:50:25 I'm too clueless to make informed decisions 22:50:31 Sgeo: "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." --Winston Churchill4 22:50:54 Sgeo: Amendment 101, which would cut vehicle, income, and telecom taxes to an 8th of the size. 22:50:54 4 22:51:15 s/4$// 22:51:33 Isn't this what not having direct democracy is for? Besides administrative purposes 22:51:47 Sgeo: And a lot of things around here are very very underfunded because of morons who think that removing taxes just means they have more money in their pocket. 22:52:09 Sgeo: Anyways. If you're too uninformed to vote on something, *inform yourself*. 22:52:14 Sgeo: All democracy relies on at least most of the people not being complete idiots. 22:52:21 Sgeo: We live in the fucking information age. 22:52:29 Sgeo: YOU CAN GET FUCKING INFORMATION. 22:52:38 Information about fucking. 22:52:45 elliott: Well, yes. 22:52:51 elliott: The Internet is for porn, after all. 23:03:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:07:29 poll: is interactive fiction esoteric? 23:07:38 not in and of itself 23:07:40 ais523: ping 23:08:29 Esoteric interactive fiction! 23:08:50 continuation: is inform 7 an esoteric programming language? 23:09:10 A slow, horrible realisation creeps over you that the Befunge program is trying to take over the world. 23:09:26 Do you: smash it with a hammer? Turn to page 23:10:00 45. Run away? Turn to page 74. Submit to your fungal overlord? Turn to page 89. 23:10:49 Phantom_Hoover: that is not interactive fiction. 23:10:55 Mathnerd314: it's strange, that's for sure 23:11:01 Awww. 23:11:06 I still want to write that. 23:11:41 Mathnerd314: ais523 wrote an esoteric interactive fiction thing once but never finished i. 23:11:42 *it. 23:11:45 literally, based on esolangs 23:12:05 pikhq: I hereby hire you. 23:12:17 fizzie, I hereby hire you. 23:12:34 ais523, Gregor, you're hired too. 23:12:46 Fool! I am hiring pikhq for a reason! 23:12:49 elliott, you're hired as well. 23:13:00 elliott: My standard rate is $5,000,000 an hour. 23:13:00 What's the pay? 23:13:11 elliott: (or about £1 per week) 23:13:31 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:13:36 pikhq: How much would you say a week's worth of two people working on Kitten would be worth, to you? 23:13:44 As part of the global value "how much Kitten is worth overall". 23:13:51 Convert utilons to the almighty dollar. 23:13:54 Or... to pounds. 23:14:09 pikhq: If it's £1 per week or more, congratulations! You'll be paying yourself! 23:14:19 pikhq: If it's less, WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST KITTEN 23:14:22 pikhq: Working all of 0.0004 seconds per week? That's a lot! 23:14:31 elliott: About several quintillion Zimbabwean Dollars. 23:14:49 pikhq: Wow! You're making a five quadrillion times profit! 23:14:54 pikhq: You're IN THE MONEY and I don't even have to pay you. 23:14:58 elliott: I'd say it's worth about a week's worth 23:15:02 Isn't that great? 23:15:39 elliott: Well, such dollars aren't even worth the paper they're printed on. 23:15:49 Gregor, the pay at Hoover Enterprises is £5 for every unit of influence gathered. 23:15:57 elliott: I'd gain money by burning them and selling the ashes. 23:16:09 pikhq: Point is: You get to work on Kitten for free. How lucky are you? 23:17:47 * Sgeo isn't hired? 23:18:47 Sgeo, OK, you can be head of the aural warfare department. 23:19:04 Gregor, you take over the webernets. 23:19:13 fizzie, I need you to secure Finland. 23:19:37 what's Kitten? some other crazy vaporware I missed? 23:20:02 * Mathnerd314 checks logs 23:20:21 Mathnerd314, elliott is developing it. Of course it's crazy vapourware. 23:22:47 yeah, but I can't criticize it if I don't know what it is :p 23:23:42 besides, one day it might be interesting 23:24:35 Oh, if he actually makes any of its crazy vapourware it'll be as awesome as sliced bread which has been sliced again. 23:24:55 OMG sandwich so delicious 23:25:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:25:41 Phantom_Hoover is grossly overestimating the vapourwareness of Kitten. 23:26:08 Mathnerd314: Kitten is possibly the least ambitious of all my projects, existing solely because stuff sucks. 23:26:44 Mathnerd314: It's basically a Linux distribution, except probably a BSD kernel instead of Linux and without rubbish. I swear it's more interesting than that, but it's not actually meant to be hugely interesting. 23:27:10 Totally not Debian GNU/kFreeBSD though. 23:27:28 Gregor: If you're meant to say "hurr you're making Debian", I'm... really not. 23:27:35 Uh oh... "Comcast has previously announced that they are running out of the RFC1918 space and that they are using real IPv4 addresses for internal network devices." 23:27:44 "They use kFreeBSD and I use kNetBSD! And in every other respect we are different! LOL DUPLICATION OF EFFORT" 23:27:53 elliott: I have no idea, I'm just pointing out that your description there doesn't distinguish you from Debian GNU/kFreeBSD :P 23:27:56 Gregor: That's like saying Gentoo and Ubuntu are the same because they both use Linux :P 23:28:03 Gregor: Well, I also prefer a BSD userland. 23:28:11 And generally... non-GNU userland. 23:28:23 So, you prefer a shitty outdated userland. 23:28:24 Got it. 23:28:25 Gregor: And I'll use the NetBSD libc, basic /sbin tools and the like. 23:28:37 Gregor: OK, let me get this straight: non-GNU userland = outdated by definition? 23:28:41 No :P 23:28:53 Gregor: Then? 23:29:00 It's clear what userland you're using; NetBSD's. 23:29:07 Gregor: That is not clear at all, actually. 23:29:18 Well, then I made an ASSUMPTION 23:29:30 Gregor: I *might*, but it's far from certain. 23:29:57 Gregor: And besides, I find it really hard to conceive of a *coreutils* being outdated. 23:30:03 Ilari: Oooooh fuck. 23:30:04 Seeing as they haven't changed since, y'know, 1980. 23:30:28 cp -a and date --iso come to mind immediately. 23:30:36 I know I constantly run into unsupported stuff on Mac OS X. 23:31:12 Gregor: At the same time, tons of people use the BSD userland and have no issue with it. It *does* come down a lot to personal preference, you know. 23:31:48 Gregor: FreeBSD cp has -a, anyway. 23:31:59 I could easily transplant its /bin in. 23:32:02 elliott: Then whereTF did Mac OS X get its cp from X-D 23:32:08 Gregor: Old FreeBSD 23:32:12 Outstanding :P 23:32:16 (NetBSD doesn't have cp -a) 23:32:27 Gregor: You do realise OS X basically became a fork in 2000? :P 23:32:38 Yeah, but they could, y'know, MERGE. 23:33:01 Gregor: That would be painful and expensive :P 23:33:19 Gregor: They even have a forked GCC. 23:33:19 Especially for an OS that doesn't care about developers or console users at all *shrugs* 23:33:29 One which is falling waaaaaay out of date. 23:34:15 well, they are going clang+llvm anyway for GPL-FUD reasons (or whatever), so why update their gcc fork 23:34:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:34:34 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 23:34:52 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 23:35:19 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 23:39:55 Yeah they've abandoned gcc. 23:40:00 Also stock gcc works, so. 23:43:19 would you use clang/llvm in kitten? 23:45:31 ^ elliott 23:45:42 pcc is more likely. 23:46:09 And polls have begun to close. Let election night begin! 23:48:01 elliott: pcc seems 1/2 dead 23:48:14 Mathnerd314: http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/ 23:48:45 Mathnerd314: It's quite alive. 23:49:04 I'm thinking about starting on a kernel in that language I've been building a compiler for 23:49:12 But Charlie, they care about you! 23:49:15 olsner: what kinda language? 23:49:15 now that I have the booting stuff done :) 23:49:17 pikhq: well, slowly dying then. 23:49:22 Mathnerd314: by what evidence? 23:51:05 elliott: lack of google news search results 23:52:34 Mathnerd314: ...are you serious? 23:52:43 Mathnerd314: That's a retarded criterion. Absolutely positively retarded. 23:52:52 he's gotta be joking 23:52:54 fairly sure he's joking. 23:52:56 I agree with both of you 23:54:14 ok, look at ohloh: http://www.ohloh.net/p/pcc "Decreasing year-over-year development activity" 23:55:12 BSD is dying; Netcraft confirms it. 23:55:40 and there's only ~1 person who committed recently 23:58:31 Mathnerd314: you do realise ohloh's metrics suck very often? 23:58:36 Mathnerd314: how about looking at the *actual CVS*? 23:58:43 yeah, I did. 23:59:10 Mathnerd314: Furthermore: You do realise that it has been continuously maintained as a single codebase since the 70s? 23:59:15 And many, many compilers are based on it? 23:59:21 At some point, software just begins to mature. 2010-11-03: 00:00:11 *unix* software begins to mature. everything else just keeps on growing 00:00:32 And PCC's one of the most UNIX programs out there. 00:00:36 Mathnerd314: ...pcc is a unix program 00:00:45 yeah... :p 00:00:54 It was written for AT&T UNIX! 00:00:55 Mathnerd314: It was developed at Bell Labs on Unix in the 70s, the heyday of Unix. 00:01:02 It shipped with the original BSD. 00:01:09 It only got replaced with gcc in BSD in 1994. 00:01:21 It was unmaintained for a while but now it's been picked up again and ported to modern systems, and it's quite C99 compliant too. 00:01:36 It's also packaged in NetBSD core (not pkgsrc) and OpenBSD. 00:01:40 And it can built OpenBSD's kernel. 00:02:10 Also, it tastes like butterflies. 00:03:00 Gregor: So, you pretty much support Debian in everything they do right? 00:03:18 Pretty much. Not always. X-P 00:03:27 Gregor: So I take it you use GNOME :) 00:03:35 XFCE 00:03:43 Gregor: BUT THAT'S NOT EVEN SUPPORTED IN THE INSTALLER 00:03:48 Also, for a distro like Debian, having a default is almost meaningless :P 00:04:06 I can't say I blame Gregor. They are probably the least terrible binary distro out there for general use. 00:04:24 Who is they? 00:05:17 Debian. 00:06:43 pikhq: NO KITTEN 00:06:47 (There is no kitten :( ) 00:08:15 There is only Zuul. 00:08:41 Welp, Indiana senate went red. Wooooh. 00:09:35 Gregor: HA HA 00:09:40 Here's hoping that doesn't become a trend. 00:09:53 Don't need another economic crash. 00:10:40 Well, Indiana barely went blue last time. 00:11:05 TEXAS WENT BLUE 00:11:12 (Note: This will never, ever happen) 00:11:24 What would the fancy map colourers do if a third party won? 00:11:35 Kentucky stayed red (SHOCK!) 00:11:38 "And California went.... ... um ... Orange!" 00:11:46 elliott: Usu. yellow or green. 00:12:00 Gregor: Usually? Does it happen often? :P 00:12:23 elliott: There are two "independent" senators and a few independent or third-party representatives. 00:13:09 Gregor: What if EVERY STATE TURNED A DIFFERENT INDEPENDENT COLOUR 00:13:21 "Independent" != "third-party" 00:13:25 Then maybe we'd develop a parliament. 00:13:29 X-D 00:13:42 Nth-party 00:13:52 You know what I mean 00:14:13 Independent isn't a party. Independent is not-registered-as-any-party. 00:14:21 Third parties never win in the senate :P 00:14:41 Independents are just democrats or republicans minus the title :P 00:17:05 OH BOY, according to the Guardian, Kentucky went republican->tea party! 00:17:11 NOW WE'RE REALLY MAKING PROGRESS 00:18:03 Gregor: With 4% of the vote counted. 00:18:15 pikhq: Yeahyeahyeah :P 00:19:15 Speaking of esoteric things, what's the most esoteric channel you're on, on 'Node? 00:19:24 Maybe I'll vote in the primaries next time 00:19:32 Try to support someone who has a chance of winning 00:19:49 *cough* F U Howard Kudler *cough* 00:20:11 Gregor: 4% of the vote counted and the Democrat has a 10% lead. 00:20:29 pikhq: I'm trusting Guardian :P 00:20:46 Mr. Kudler couldn't find an editor, could he? 00:20:59 "If your Congressman fails to keep the economy strong, sides with the big banks, and foreign energy companies, and fails vote for programs to bring businesses, jobs and employment to Nassau and Suffolk Counties. The FIRE him! " 00:21:07 Speaking of esoteric things, what's the most esoteric channel you're on, on 'Node? 00:21:11 Umm... #esoteric 00:21:24 "Does our current Congressman vote for the interests of People of Long Island, Or are his actions guided by his party and his own personal interest in America " 00:21:27 Sgeo: And vote for the guy who will do all that ONLY MORE. 00:21:35 Gregor: Trusting the Guardian's first story -- EXCELLENT IDEA 00:21:35 I'm gonna go with ##0x50000000 00:21:45 pikhq, right now I'm more raging at the .. lack of a copyeditor 00:21:46 That's the most esoteric channel I'm on. 00:22:15 Really? In terms of 'Node's 'purpose', mine is either #cooking or #gaygeeks 00:22:44 Both of those should be ## channels :P 00:22:46 elliott: I've mentioned this language before, I could summarize it as an imperative language with modules and a type system that is not as raped as C's 00:22:56 olsner: Oh, that M++ thing 00:22:59 olsner: No? 00:23:08 Gregor: They are 00:23:10 well, the successor of that thing 00:23:15 Right. 00:23:27 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 00:24:15 Quadlex: Neither appear to be. 00:25:16 They've got redirects 00:27:20 Both of those should be ## channels :P 00:27:21 So should #esoteric 00:27:32 -!- Sasha has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:27:56 No, this is the official channel for the esoteric programming language Esoteric 00:27:57 elliott: Not so. This is the official channel of the esolangs.org wiki. 00:27:58 elliott: :P 00:28:09 pikhq: Which doesn't own esoteric :P 00:28:22 pikhq: what is Zuul? I heard it in a song and never found it. 00:28:26 elliott: KAJ ĈU VI HAVAS PUNKTON? 00:28:36 Mathnerd314: ... You must watch Ghostbusters. Nao. 00:28:38 Mathnerd314: Ghostbuster 00:28:38 elliott: one of these days I might write something about the new thing... 00:28:39 s 00:28:46 olsner: Thing some thing about thing thing. 00:29:56 the new thing is called m3: m stands for module, I think, and 3 because I believe it's the third attempt at making something of this vague idea 00:30:10 olsner: Modula-3 hates your guts :P 00:30:28 yeah, I suspect it's taken a hundred times over already 00:30:28 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:31:03 olsner: Modula-3 is hardly some random name-taker :) 00:31:13 I won't use jonguilexiphonaugh for this project either, that name should have an esolang 00:32:08 So, Gregor knows something insane about me 00:32:19 Um, that I haven't said here, I mean 00:32:29 Ah. I was about to say... 00:34:21 -!- Gregor has set topic: Official tech support channel for Esoteric | Homepage: http://esoteric.sourceforge.net/ | Spec: http://esoteric.sourceforge.net/esoteric_spec.pdf | Repository (Mercurial): http://bitbucket.org/esoteric/stable | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 00:35:03 -!- Sasha has joined. 00:35:25 -!- elliott has set topic: Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor, Hermetic Brotherhood of Light, Rosicrucianism, magick, gnosticism etc. | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 00:35:54 Never before has a topic been such a pack of lies :P 00:36:32 doesn't seem too far off to me 00:36:33 So, Gregor knows something insane about me 00:36:33 Um, that I haven't said here, I mean 00:36:35 WHAT IS IT GREGOR TELL US 00:36:58 Sgeo is a serial rapist. 00:37:11 ^^not it and not true 00:37:14 Knew it. 00:37:18 Sgeo: Don't lie. 00:37:32 Gregor: this being the support channel for serial rapists, isn't everyone? 00:37:36 I like how Sgeo thinks that people will think the idea of him being a serial rapist is plausible enough that he has to deny it :) 00:38:54 Sorry, I misspoke. 00:38:56 He's a CEREAL rapist. 00:38:57 fine time to pop in 00:39:45 Sasha: It's okay, we're just talking about rape. 00:41:00 eh 00:41:11 I have never participated in usch activities 00:41:14 such* 00:41:45 You never participated in talking? 00:41:47 it's about time you start talking then :) 00:42:01 I wish I was better at multitasking, so I could simultaneously code, listen to your banal talk, and do my homework too 00:42:18 but my screen is too small, or something 00:43:10 and cloning is far away 00:44:47 ideas? 00:46:48 skip homework :) if you stick to just coding and "listen"ing to our banal talk should be within your capacity, shouldn't it? 00:48:28 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 00:48:49 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 00:49:17 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 00:50:18 hmm, it seems that the more tired I am, the harder it is for me to go to bed in time 00:51:08 I guess self-control deteriorates more quickly than I grow physically tired or something like that 00:51:31 alternately I could skip your banal talk and do the homework and code 00:51:47 olsner: probably your sleep schedule doesn't match what your body thinks it should be 00:52:00 of course it doesn't 00:52:37 why? eliminate all those activities with strict times 00:54:10 well, I want to get to work before lunch so that I can have lunch 00:54:40 what? on weekends I never get up before ~1 pm 00:55:28 today is not a weekend, nor is tomorrow 00:56:05 but... sleep is more productive than working 00:58:38 Goodnight; bye. 00:58:39 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:58:47 Rand Paul won 00:58:50 bye - have fun with distro 01:00:06 Sgeo: any relation (at all) to Ayn Rand? 01:02:35 -!- Sgeo has left (?). 01:02:39 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:02:59 Um, I think Rand is libertarian, so philisophically, I think 01:03:28 ok :-) 01:16:48 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:25:52 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 02:15:27 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:18:40 So far this map is lookin' awfully red. 02:20:47 Election Alert: Fox News Projects GOP Wins Control of House :P 02:23:56 I guess my vote for that K guy wasn't too helpful 02:24:05 -!- MALDEK has joined. 02:24:46 k 02:25:19 MALDEK, who are you? Are you a regular here? 02:26:27 Gregor: The GOP is projected by most everyone to be red. 02:26:41 ................... 02:26:42 Gregor: But it looks like the Dems will have a narrow majority in the Senate. 02:26:52 Gregor: The GOP is projected by most everyone to be red. 02:26:54 Gregor: ... HOUSE. NOT GOP, 02:27:03 pikhq: Reread that like a billion times :P 02:27:18 sgeo....non reg 02:27:26 Gregor: But anyways. Deadlock! 02:27:56 House is useless and the senate has deadlocked enough as-is X-P 02:28:37 sgeo....btw...who are you? 02:28:40 MALDEK, to give you the quick rundown: This is obstentially about computer science topics, not magic topics 02:28:49 I am Sgeo. 02:29:05 They're likely to get rid of the filibuster in the Senate rules. 02:29:40 sgeo...yes....thanx for the hint....let me see what happens...lol 02:29:40 Constantly humbled by the sheer intellect displayed in this channel. 02:29:59 See what happens...? 02:30:41 pikhq: That'd be nice, but we'll see :P 02:30:55 sgeo...yes....i regard the screen at the moment as a nice random generator....i like th eglance at those systems while relaxing 02:31:36 Ah, politics, the first of three levels of "higher" flamewars. 02:31:49 Gregor: Revising the rules of order at the beginning of a session requires a simple majority. 02:32:00 Please tell me that MALDEK is real. No one else is responding to em. 02:32:12 I'm not hallucinating you, am I MALDEK? 02:32:16 Sgeo: The M-DALEK is real. 02:32:50 Gregor: Erm, not session. Term. 02:32:58 pikhq: Bloody nonsense :P 02:33:02 sgeo...what is the qualification of a valid answer? 02:33:51 would that be a case of split personlity? 02:34:09 your alter ego is logged in the terminal 02:34:15 lol 02:35:35 * Sgeo points at MALDEK and shouts at pikhq and Gregor. "Can't you see em?!" 02:35:55 Sgeo: 無 02:36:01 sgeo....? 02:36:19 Sgeo: Who? 02:36:27 XChat's notification thing displayed the character correctly, XChat did not 02:37:08 e'kusutiȳa'to warui nã. 02:38:37 -!- MALDEK has left (?). 02:38:59 :( 02:42:55 Wow. The governor race here is a race between the Democrats and the American Constitution party. 02:45:18 American Constitution party? 02:45:36 Um 02:45:45 For a Constitution party, it seems rather Christian 02:46:13 The Republicans in that race are just hoping to not be a write-in next time. 02:48:12 The Constitution is a joke. 02:48:25 Erm 02:48:27 X-D 02:48:31 I'll just stick with that, actually. 02:48:40 (Read: Constitution PARTY :P ) 02:50:10 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:51:31 They literally have no concept of the meaning of religious freedom 02:52:15 hmm, here's an esoproblem: an online game (Kingdom of Loathing) added a macro language, but it had a crazy bug, and I'm trying to figure out what was going on 02:53:29 "sub f while !times 2 use spices endwhile endsub while !times 4 call f endwhile", "while !times 2 while !times 2 use spices endwhile endwhile", "while !times 2 while !times 4 use spices endwhile endwhile", "while !times 4 while !times 2 use spices endwhile endwhile" use spices 4, 3, 19, 5 times respectively 02:53:38 someone needs to figure out the semantics of this and make it an esoprogram 02:53:43 *esolang 02:54:10 unfortunately, they fixed the bug, so no further experimentation is possible 03:02:12 Were you able to talk to anyone else who experienced it? 03:02:59 -!- Grizly has joined. 03:03:27 Hi Grizly 03:04:27 Hey 03:10:12 Sgeo: no, that's all the info I have to go on 03:10:26 and I'm really interested in what the semantics of the bug were 03:10:32 Can you ask the devs? 03:10:55 not this long after the event, this was back in April 03:11:08 besides, it's a fun programming problem to think of a plausible bug that would make /that/ happen 03:12:51 ais523, aww 03:13:05 Ask them to generate more examples! 03:13:13 Surely they use version control 03:14:20 Sgeo: it's an MMO 03:14:25 you can't roll back to a previous version... 03:14:32 well, in theory you could, but everyone would go mad 03:14:46 How well compartmentalized is the code? 03:15:52 Sgeo: it's an MMO, the source code to the interp for that isn't public 03:16:13 So you don't know if there's a chance 03:16:37 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 03:19:34 I think it's pretty likely that the interp for the above language was deterministic, though 03:20:43 So is a sequence that begins 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 03:20:47 Then the next number is 42 03:21:00 Although I guess we could guess what sort of bugs are likely 03:22:05 at least the second and fourth examples show a sort of pattern 03:25:27 I'm watching three maps: Guardian, CBS and FOX. 03:25:34 (To cover the whole spectrum :P ) 03:25:41 FOX's is currently the bluest (huh?) 03:26:11 It's called Colorado and Pennsylvania for the Democrats, which the others haven't. 03:33:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:48:00 -!- wareya_ has joined. 03:50:58 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:51:22 -!- Grizly has quit. 03:56:34 Gregor: I strongly hope Colorado is blue. 03:56:45 Because Ken Buck is *positively crazy*. 03:56:59 If FOX has already called it for the dems, I'm thinkin' it goes blue :P 03:57:12 It's a very close race. 03:57:27 *Aaaah* I see what's happening. 03:57:32 The Republican vote is split. 03:58:10 Yeah, none of my sites make it look all that close :P 04:02:12 Hey, now maybe both parties will be on board with changing how voting works 04:02:42 Since here the suckiness hurts the Republican-like parties, and in the past, it hurt Democrat-like parties 04:02:46 (I think) 04:03:08 Tune in next election cycle for more "Wishful Thinking" with Sgeo Comet. 04:05:07 Third parties have always hurt both parties, but nobody's willing to change to a system that would potentially allow any other party to win. 04:05:32 Right now we have two centrist parties, both of which are mind-bogglingly terrible in their own ways :P 04:05:55 If you had something like runoff voting (and people understood it), there would be a potential for other parties to win. 04:06:09 Then we'd have actual political heterogeneity. 04:06:14 That'd break EVERYTHING. 04:08:14 But those other parties would be at least sometimes allied with the main parties 04:08:31 Otherwise, vote splitting wouldn't affect primarily one party 04:09:28 Maybe, if the Tea Party sticks around, the Republicans will see it as advantageous to have a separate Tea Party coexisting with them 04:09:37 Avoid O'Donnell situations in the future 04:10:03 Because then O'Donnel could run concurrently with the hypothetical sane GOP candidate 04:10:25 Grah, I'm actually rooting for Republicans to push for something that would have helped Republicans? 04:28:58 Ooooh fuck. So, the House can do subpoenas. Meaning that the Republicans willl enact a witchhunt. 04:29:19 On the other hand, that will really hurt elections in 2 years. 04:29:40 "The Republicans were nuts, just like they claimed to be. Don't vote for the fuckers again." 04:29:44 subpoenas of who for what? 04:30:02 Sgeo: Entire Obama administration, to be annoying. 04:32:55 Sgeo: Remember, these are the bastards who impeached Clinton for failure to keep it in his pants. 04:33:31 -!- augur has joined. 04:35:19 Wasn't it supposedly about lying about keeping it in his pans? 04:35:21 *pants 04:35:39 Then again, whether he kept it in his pants or not should never have come up for discussion in the first place 05:35:29 -!- evincar has joined. 05:37:44 Hi all. 05:39:28 Apparently in an era when sit-com married couples slept in separate beds, Rocky and Bullwinkle slept together. 05:47:40 Gregor: Further evidence that furries have been around forever. 05:47:57 Get it? "Fur"ther? 05:48:04 Furever. 05:48:06 .... 05:48:10 Derp. 05:49:14 Of course, this show also has Dudley Do-Right, with Nell in love with Dudley's horse :P 05:49:19 So I guess I can't say much :P 05:51:42 Gregor: Exactly. They're everywhere. 05:51:51 Not that it's necessarily so bad. I mean, the vast majority of furries are just people who like to draw or write. 05:52:18 And we probably wouldn't have any of the classic animated films that we do today if it weren't for anthropomorphic animal characters. 05:53:53 X-D 05:59:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:00:47 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:06:00 WHY IS THE PRO-RAPE CANDIDATE WINNING. 06:06:02 WHY GOD WHY. 06:08:55 ..........??? 06:09:27 Gregor: Ken Buck. 06:18:17 -!- augur has joined. 06:30:04 pikhq: Never trust anyone whose name matches /en B.ck/. 06:30:30 Excuse me, /en+ B.ck/. 06:37:40 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:41:58 -!- Zuu has joined. 06:49:20 I think the US needs conquering. 06:49:38 By who? Everybody's just as fucked-up, we're just louder about it :P 06:49:39 How does Norway feel about conquest? 06:53:47 pikhq: Let me know in advance so I can mosey on over to Canada before it hits the fan. 06:54:34 evincar: Perhaps Canada should conquer. Though they'd be too polite about it. 06:54:44 "Could we please take over, eh?" 06:54:52 pikhq: Not the Québécois. 06:55:02 They'd be just as impolite as they pleased. 06:55:26 Yeah, but they're trying hard to be a seperate country. 06:56:39 Oy, if Canada took over, everything would end up written in English, French and Spanish. 06:56:43 pikhq: Every once in a while it gets farther than it ought to, and Canada says "you can be a country when you take your share of the national debt". 06:57:18 Gregor: Isn't it already? 06:57:38 No. No it isn't :P 06:57:47 Here in AMERICA we speak AMERICAN (English) X-P 06:58:12 It's fairly common to add French so they can distribute to Canada easily, and Spanish for the sake of Hispanics... 07:01:36 Looks like no marijuana for California! 07:01:36 HA! 07:04:06 The dealers will be very happy about that. 07:08:51 * Gregor appeals to the horribly-obvious slippery-slope argument: 07:08:57 The dealers of cocaine, on the other hand, won't be. 07:39:43 Gregor: This came up last night: what's your accent like? 07:39:56 pikhq: You too, if you weren't around. 07:40:04 I honestly don't remember right now. :P 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:51 -!- tombom has joined. 08:01:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:43:03 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi. 08:52:40 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:01:39 -!- wareya has joined. 09:04:41 -!- wareya_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 09:31:08 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: Laaame.). 09:38:09 http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Oklahoma_"Sharia_Law_Amendment",_State_Question_755_(2010) 09:38:12 WHAT THE HELL 11:09:21 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 11:18:55 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:00:49 -!- MALDEK has joined. 12:06:37 good afternoon 12:26:36 -!- MALDEK has quit (Quit: Q: What do you call 15 blondes in a circle? A: A dope ring. Q: Why do blondes put their hair in ponytails? A: To cover up the valve stem.). 12:28:39 -!- MALDEK has joined. 12:29:04 -!- MALDEK has quit (Client Quit). 12:33:55 -!- jix has quit (Read error: No route to host). 12:41:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:42:20 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 12:44:51 -!- Vorpal has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 12:46:15 -!- Vorpal has joined. 12:48:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:50:07 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:51:07 netsplit? 13:07:07 -!- jix has joined. 14:15:19 * Vorpal has quit (Read error: Operation timed out) 14:15:22 Hard to say. 14:15:36 hm 14:15:49 Possibly just a single-server glitch that didn't actually cause it to splat. 14:15:59 ITYM split? 14:16:15 No, I think splat's funnier. 14:17:20 Grumble grumble Rademacher complexity. 14:18:12 fizzie, rademacher? 14:19:01 I don't know what it is or how it works, but I'm supposed to present this machine learning paper in tomorrow's seminar course thing, and they waste half of their pages in a theoretical analysis of the Rademacher complexity of their method, so it must be something important. 14:20:23 It's some sort of "here's a class of functions, how complicated they are" measure; they're using it to show that the class of functions their optimization thingie can find is less complex than some alternatives, so their thing should generalize better. 14:20:54 fizzie, heh, interesting 14:23:28 The definition goes \hat{R}_\ell(\mathcal{F}} = \mathbb{E}_\sigma \left[ \sup_{f \in \mathcal{F}} \left| \frac{2}{\ell} \sum_{i=1}^\ell \sigma_i f(\vec{x}_i) \right| \middle| \vec{x}_1, \dots, \vec{x}_\ell \right] 14:23:41 That would probably be more readable with a TeX-supporting IRC client. 14:24:07 There's also at least one typo: the } after \mathcal{F} should be a ). 14:24:52 Hey, that thing actually works. 14:24:58 http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=tx&chl=\hat{R}_\ell%28\mathcal{F}%29%20=%20\mathbb{E}_\sigma%20\left[%20\sup_{f%20\in%20\mathcal{F}}%20\left|%20\frac{2}{\ell}%20\sum_{i=1}^\ell%20\sigma_i%20f%28\vec{x}_i%29%20\right|%20\middle|%20\vec{x}_1,%20\dots,%20\vec{x}_\ell%20\right] 14:25:07 Not a pretty link, but it does what it should. 14:25:42 Should've probably stripped out the spaces, though. 14:26:59 http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=tx&chl=\hat{R}_\ell%28\mathcal{F}%29=\mathbb{E}_\sigma\left[\sup_{f\in\mathcal{F}}\left|\frac{2}{\ell}\sum_{i=1}^\ell\sigma_if%28\vec{x}_i%29\right|\middle|\vec{x}_1,\dots,\vec{x}_\ell\right] 14:27:05 -!- sftp has joined. 14:27:13 Not that shorter. Well, that's what URL-shorteners are for. 14:28:11 Oh, and instead of \vec{} it should optimally be something that does \mathbb{} instead of the silly over-arrow. Oh well. 14:54:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:12:41 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (*.net *.split). 15:12:41 -!- Sasha has quit (*.net *.split). 15:32:31 -!- augur has joined. 15:33:59 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 15:33:59 -!- Sasha has joined. 15:42:21 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:42:22 -!- elliott has joined. 15:49:16 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:50:02 hi ais523 15:50:12 hi 15:50:43 hmm, I hate it when people do that to the topic 15:50:53 ais523: No, we actually officially changed mission. 15:51:07 I'm doing voodoo right now! 15:51:09 that seems a little implausible 15:51:15 and I expect it'd cause most of the channel to /part when they found out 15:51:22 Don't you feel the voodoo doll stabs, ais523??? 15:51:30 I thought I was ready :( 15:51:37 (Note: I am lying through my teeth) 15:51:45 Actually not through my teeth at all, I'm just lying. 15:51:57 -!- elliott has set topic: Not the logs unless they are: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:52:28 hmm, I need to wind down a bit 15:52:38 Just helped someone with C++ stuff 15:52:42 I had around 5 hours sleep this morning, and this afternoon by mitsake 15:52:43 *mistake 15:52:48 ais523: You should listen to me talk about my efforts to create a simple term rewriting tarpit! 15:52:52 (Note: Possibly not actually interesting) 15:52:58 ais523: Self-interpreting, specifically. 15:53:07 I needed to hit him in the head with "Don't assume the contents of the data file. The program should only know the structure" 15:53:12 He's in the programming track 15:53:13 I weep 15:53:18 elliott: don't worry, do the typical thing where the author of the lang monologues and other people maybe read them later 15:53:29 Maybe I'm overreacting 15:53:32 Sgeo: it's bad enough just seeing the other /teachers/ on my C course 15:53:38 ais523: I already did that (well, with the implementation) and nobody's polite enough to pretend to be interested :) 15:53:40 let alone some of the students 15:53:53 elliott: I might logread it, then 15:54:12 I'm sorry, I've been really lax with the logreading over the past couple of years 15:54:17 I kind of liked xkcd 15:54:18 ais523: It doesn't actually give any indicator as to what the language is like. 15:54:24 Or the implementation, really, I just ranted about all my bugs :) 15:54:32 It wasn't that funny, but it was cute 15:54:36 ais523: also, logreading is hardly a duty :) 15:54:59 Sgeo: wow, possibly worst xkcd yet 15:55:05 wait, no, not worst xkcd yet. but -- close ... 15:55:21 I want to make a new video codec because all the existing ones suck, at least for encoding certain sorts of video 15:55:50 but I don't really have time 15:56:20 ais523: Good luck doing better than H.264 :P (Yeah, I know, you've said, but still.) 15:56:53 H.264 can't even encode a black square on a white background properly if its dimensions aren't multiples of 16 15:57:09 Prop 19 failed? Lovely. 15:57:15 LOOKS LIKE REDDIT ISN'T ALL-POWERFUL 15:57:28 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523_. 15:57:35 ais523_: yes it can 15:57:42 ais523_: try x264 with quantisation set to 0 15:57:44 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:57:56 Dear Active Worlds: Upgrading one update at a time, and repeatedly bugging me, is absolute fun on a bun 15:58:00 elliott: hmm, how does that differ from being uncompressed? 15:58:08 I wasn't referring to quantisation, but to DCT artifacts 15:58:23 ais523_: it still does all the other interesting things; it ends up being a very high quality (we're talking insane compression) lossless codec 15:58:51 ais523_: pikhq encoded a detailed 10-minute 3D short in 1080p losslessly and it was very small. 15:58:56 Only a few gigs; I forget the exact amount. 15:58:59 pikhq knows :P 15:59:30 It was 5 gigs. 15:59:48 ais523_: And it still does DCT, as far as I know. 15:59:56 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:00:01 ais523: Quantisation is where the loss is. 16:00:12 ais523: The discrete cosine transform *itself* is lossless. 16:00:15 ais523_: Basically, H.264 is not *designed* to encode pixel-accurately; no lossy codec is! 16:00:49 * pikhq shall get coffee and then go to class 16:01:12 elliott: indeed; it's just the sort of artifacts it creates are really visible in certain circumstances, as opposed to, say, mp3's 16:01:30 ais523: you clearly haven't seen the pathological mp3 testcases 16:01:35 which is pretty much designed on the basis of trying to cause artifacts that human hearing can't detect 16:01:42 elliott: I'm not surprised there are pathological cases 16:01:48 ais523_: turns out the eye is a lot more sensitive than the ear! 16:01:53 ais523: Also, you may want to try some of x264's presets. preset=slow tune=animation gets wonderful results on animation. 16:01:55 What surprise! 16:01:59 I wonder how mp3 handles, say, a pulsetrain 16:02:02 pikhq: it isn't ais523 doing the encoding 16:02:05 pikhq: it's insane encoding freaks 16:03:41 (pulsetrains have pretty close to pathological behaviour, as sound goes; I suppose a pulsetrain with random delays would be even worse) 16:05:10 -!- augur has joined. 16:05:22 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:05:52 ais523: pulseplanes 16:17:51 Wow, Alaska had more write-ins than votes for either party-line candidate. 16:18:06 They haven't tallied who the write-ins are for yet, though (apparently) 16:18:36 18:53:29 "sub f while !times 2 use spices endwhile endsub while !times 4 call f endwhile", "while !times 2 while !times 2 use spices endwhile endwhile", "while !times 2 while !times 4 use spices endwhile endwhile", "while !times 4 while !times 2 use spices endwhile endwhile" use spices 4, 3, 19, 5 times respectively 16:18:37 dear god what 16:18:45 Gregor: Sarah Palin 16:18:50 Gregor: Please, god, let it be Sarah Palin. 16:19:53 Apparently it's basically Republican-vs-Tea-Party. 16:19:59 Gregor: Sweeeet 16:20:00 Tea Party has 34% and the Republican ticket. 16:20:13 41% is write-ins, and the Republican was running a write-in campaign. 16:20:16 So she MAY have won. 16:20:26 But we don't know yet. 16:20:40 Gregor: Upside: No longer controlled by two parties 16:20:47 Gregor: Downside: Controlled by two parties and the Tea Party 16:21:02 FOX has called Colorado blue, then red, then blue; they really can't make up their damned minds :P 16:21:31 Gregor: "Let's... let's just go with red." 16:21:32 (Nobody else has called Colorado anything yet) 16:24:08 Gregor: "America's asshole" 16:24:10 I JUST DID 16:46:41 pikhq: Hey, I didn't realise -- Google made a Japanese font. 16:48:04 dear god what <--- we really need oklopol or someone to help with this 16:48:13 at least the second and fourth examples follow an obvious pattern 16:48:31 ais523_: oklopol has outgrown computers 16:48:42 is that even possible? 16:48:50 oh well, someone else with the same atitude, then 16:49:11 ais523_: yes, he hasn't programmed in like a year or two afaik, and he only does math now, even when he comes in here :) 16:51:05 IDENTIFICATION DIVISION. 16:54:48 COBOL programs are arranged like companies 16:54:51 so they make sense to accountants 16:55:10 ais523: wow, I just realised that 16:55:14 (they're arranged like companies) 16:55:23 DAMN YOU GRAVE HOPPER 16:55:43 *GRACE 16:56:02 -!- Gregor has set topic: Last oerjan sighting: Oh apparently we forgot about 'im | Not the logs unless they are: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 16:56:31 does anyone want to email oerjan?... 16:56:34 I'm starting to worry. 16:56:34 why are you assuming oerjan is male? 16:56:40 ais523: We've seen pictures? 16:56:45 Well, one picture. 16:56:50 Also, oerjan has said /me [...]he[...] before. 16:56:52 elliott: someone assumed Gregor was female on that basis... 16:57:00 ais523: Also, oerjan has said /me [...]he[...] before. 16:57:04 Also, said picture was very much male :P 16:57:14 so was the picture of Gregor! 16:57:17 Admittedly Mike Riley was also very obviously a he but I *doubt* we're dealing with that here. 16:57:18 None of my pictures are ambiguous :P 16:57:25 Unless hair length is your only determiner for sex. 16:57:27 also, haven't you done /me [...]she[...] before? 16:57:35 As alise, yes, but that was to deliberately confuse people. 16:57:51 ais523: you have elevated hate of gendered pronouns to a superstitious level... 16:58:07 Gregor: Everyone thinks I'm female :P 16:58:08 I don't really hate them, but they make me feel awkward 16:58:11 Literally everyone. 16:58:24 ais523: how do you know 'im is male? 16:58:25 elliott, you? 16:58:32 Sgeo: ? Yes. 16:58:42 indeed, elliott believes herself female 16:58:48 a tragic state of affairs, being agreed with by everyone 16:58:52 heh 16:58:58 I think your male, mainly to make your "everyone" generalization wrong. 16:59:09 elliott has a male? 16:59:10 Gregor: Your wrong. 17:00:22 I wonder if anyone still actually uses Slackware :) *troll* 17:02:11 My wrong? Not your wrong? 17:02:34 I think your male, mainly to make your "everyone" generalization wrong. 17:02:38 Gregor: Your wrong. 17:02:56 -!- cheater has joined. 17:02:59 No, Gregor was literally thinking about elliott's male 17:03:00 ... touche :P 17:03:31 elliott's is cleverer 17:03:38 -!- cheater has quit (Client Quit). 17:03:42 My male is the cleverest wrong. 17:03:49 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed). 17:05:55 Bow ... chicka ... bow ... wow? 17:06:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:07:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:08:06 -!- sftp_ has joined. 17:08:10 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:08:14 OK., 17:08:28 My computer has completely ceased to function. 17:10:00 Well, it boots to the login screen, then the mouse and keyboard have no effect whatsoever. 17:10:23 The virtual terminals are inaccessible, although alt-sysrq still works. 17:11:20 Phantom_Hoover: BUY A MAC 17:11:40 Well, that's what I'm on right now, but that's irrelevant. 17:13:21 -!- sftp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:13:32 -!- sftp_ has joined. 17:19:24 Gregor: You know the best thing about reinstalling Debian?? YOU GET TO INSTALL DEBIAN! 17:26:26 Jesus, some Debian packages are rather out of date... 17:26:35 Some *sid* packsges. 17:26:41 *packages. 17:28:15 -!- iamcal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:36:49 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:44:05 -!- augur has joined. 17:48:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:52:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Page closed). 17:56:44 -!- sftp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:59:12 -!- cal153 has joined. 18:00:29 -!- sftp has joined. 18:22:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:22:44 Conclusion: it was my own damn fault. 18:23:53 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:23:59 -!- sftp has joined. 18:27:07 Phantom_Hoover: What did you do wrong? 18:28:25 elliott: I suspect I screwed up the fstab, but that doesn't explain *everything*. 18:28:33 Like the weird splash art. 18:30:05 (It is also worth noting that $HOME was totally empty for me upon booting) 18:30:34 Well, might as well reboot now. 18:30:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Page closed). 18:33:17 http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html I propose we adopt this time system. 18:33:25 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:33:29 -!- sftp_ has joined. 18:34:27 It was better when I thought "person" was someone's nick, though. 18:35:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:35:17 New plan! 18:35:28 Reinstall Ubuntu, then replace it with something that doesn't hate me! 18:35:41 Well, the second part is still hypothetical! 18:35:41 -!- augur has joined. 18:35:50 Phantom_Hoover: Just install Debian. 18:36:15 OK, but I need a running OS on my hard drive before I start trying that stuff. 18:36:47 Well, s/need/want/ 18:37:18 Phantom_Hoover: A broken OS is the ideal place to install something else :P 18:37:35 elliott: ah, but not when you can only use sysrq. 18:37:46 Phantom_Hoover: You can burn a CD from that Mac... 18:37:47 I'd prefer it if it was only half-broken. 18:38:14 But ANYWAY 18:39:26 And also, I need to DO THINGS, so it'll have to wait for a couple of hours in any case. 18:39:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Client Quit). 18:45:08 "As for memory, glibc 2 has more stuff than libc 5. It has to bigger libc 5. I don't call it libc 6 if it is smaller than libc 5." -- H. J. Lu 18:45:09 wat. 18:45:17 SOFTWARE IS NOT ALLOWED TO GET SMALLER 18:54:59 -!- sftp has joined. 18:55:03 -!- sftp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:00:18 "You don't really see a 'boogie down' button in an elevator very often." 19:09:58 pikhq: oklahoma wins 'dumbest ballot initiative' 19:16:43 -!- tombom has joined. 19:17:24 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:18:22 Gregor: ...what xD 19:18:49 there needs to be a 19:18:52 double down 19:18:52 button 19:20:53 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 19:26:22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhkxDIr0y2U THIS FOREVER AND BEYOND 19:33:26 a primary reason with C code being hard to get right is that you often end up doing accesses like pointer + index in loops. Getting linked lists or trees right in C is almost trivial. Sure not as easy as a real high level language (you still have to be careful with NULL and invalid pointers). 19:33:27 Bahaha 19:33:41 Dudley Do-Right, "Coming Out Party" 19:33:51 <3 outdated English :P 19:35:15 Gregor: :D 20:01:00 -!- iGO has joined. 20:04:05 -!- iGO has quit (Client Quit). 20:04:41 -!- iGO has joined. 20:12:18 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:13:03 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:15:50 -!- distant_figure has joined. 20:19:00 http://release.debian.org/migration/oldest.html -- the forgotten packages. 20:21:10 http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/5.0.6/i386/iso-cd/ Debian: It's 31 motherfucking CDs. 20:29:01 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 20:52:39 Debian reinstall time ahoy. 20:53:16 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:31:07 I think my printer went mad. It can print any single page just fine. Printing two the second page look like MISSINGNO 21:31:29 so I can print this pdf by selecting to print one page at a time 21:31:48 same thing happens from a text editor, so it isn't just pdf viewer going insane 21:31:55 could be cups going insane I guess 21:33:41 oh, you're trying to print in *linux*? 21:34:03 just use netcat of ot 21:34:08 olsner, it has worked for *years* 21:34:11 if it's a network printer, or cat if it's local 21:34:14 olsner, it's a HP printer 21:34:17 usb 21:34:22 after converting to plain ps 21:34:24 worked perfectly under linux 21:34:31 never got it to work well under windows 21:34:37 bah, I refuse to believe it 21:35:14 olsner, HP printers are well supported under linux. Unlike most other printers. Kind of like how Intel is well supported when it comes to GPUs 21:39:05 olsner, ska ha en "datortenta" imorgon. 21:39:10 udda format 21:39:17 (för tentor vill säga) 21:39:28 en sån där du sitter vid dator och kodar eller? 21:39:38 olsner, just det 21:40:22 olsner, reglerna är ganska vaga: "förutom kursliteraturen får man ha med sig egna anteckningar" mhm... *hehe* 21:40:53 är perfekt för kodkurser iaf 21:41:12 olsner, om jag bara får skrivaren att fungera kommer jag att ha med en utskrift av en implementation av ett AVL-träd som jag skrev idag.. 21:41:35 såvitt jag kan se tillåter reglerna det även om det kanske inte var tanken 21:41:51 men ... vet inte om det är värt det när man kommer på fortsättningskurserna, då är det mycket bättre om tentan testar koncept utan att man behöver koda 21:42:00 så kan man ha labbserie eller projekt där man får koda istället 21:42:17 olsner, jo, men jag läser ju inte på master-nivå än så... 21:42:19 Anyone's postscript printers work well; I guess HP's custom-protocol nonsense works reasonably well too, though. 21:42:37 I had CUPS go all confused recently too; "reinstalling" the printer fixed it, though. 21:42:52 fizzie, indeed it does. And actually after powering off and unplugging the printer then waiting a minute or so before plugging it in again it seems to work normally 21:43:05 so I guess it's internal state got confused somehow 21:43:16 well, it's an old printer, I'm surprised it lasted this many years 21:43:18 the fix was to turn it off and on again? :) 21:43:34 olsner, no. Nothing as simple. 21:44:11 olsner, turning it off *and* unplugging, waiting for what was presumably capacitors to discharge *then* plugging it in again and turning it on 21:44:18 HIGHLY technical fix 21:45:49 -!- quintopia has joined. 21:46:13 anyway, I can never seem to remember more than 5 minutes which rotation is which and when you use it. And well the course literature is in English, so checking that at the exam would take ages. 21:49:05 I don't think I've ever been in an exam which allowed any random notes; there's been some open-book ones where the course literature goes, and some with the official lecture notes too, but none with completely custom material. 21:50:26 olsner, hm btw looking at the exam papers of previous years this teacher seems to have two discrete levels of imagination when making up "scenarios" for the questions... Those are: "absurd" and "utterly absurd" 21:50:40 for me it would definitely be harder to read the book if it was in swedish 21:50:54 olsner, you mean because it would be short, concise and so on? 21:51:25 instead of something you could use for tactical cover in a gunfight 21:51:35 use as* 21:51:39 as a* 21:51:40 gah 21:51:47 well, no, because it would be written in swedish 21:52:02 no-one knows any swedish computer terms 21:52:15 and neither do I, so whatever they make up is just gibberish 21:52:25 olsner, actually I have had some course Swedish litterateur, mostly they mention both terms. 21:52:50 and actually work fairly well because they are *not* paid per word 21:52:57 (the authors that is) 21:53:15 I think you mostly have to find the right book 21:55:00 There's some Finnish computer terminology "officially" specified by Kielitoimisto (the help-the-people division of the Research Institute for the Languages of Finland), and some of those are completely ludicrous and/or unknown. 21:55:04 the "introduction to algorithms" one (http://mitpress.mit.edu/algorithms/) is not very good since it's too long 21:55:31 olsner, that too. The one on data structures and such I have here in Swedish uses examples in, pseudo-code, ML and java. Not always in a redundant fashion though. Fairly good except one place. Translated to English it would say something like: "Deletion of interior nodes in red-black trees is too complex to fit the scope of this book, and is thus left as an exercise to the reader." 21:55:44 which is very strange, and doesn't match at all with the rest of the book. 21:56:19 Most of our machine-learning/information-science/etc. textbooks haven't been so overly verbose as, say, some of the maths textbooks. 21:56:54 we used http://www.amazon.com/Structures-Their-Algorithms-Harry-Lewis/dp/067339736X, I remember it as being concise enough 21:56:54 hm 21:57:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:57:13 fizzie, moth math ones have been in Swedish for me so far 21:57:18 -!- quintopia has left (?). 21:57:44 -!- cheater99 has joined. 21:57:56 olsner, 404 21:57:57 Moth math! 21:58:01 oh wait 21:58:03 damn comma 21:58:56 Our basic maths course textbooks were in English; Finnish is admittedly a smaller language market, of course. More specialized courses have had some books in Finnish too. (Mostly written by our current/former lecturers.) 21:59:22 anyway, a bit sad that I can't fit a full featured AVL into much less than 150 lines + 20 lines header file 21:59:25 well 21:59:31 not without making it obfuscated that is 22:00:17 * Phantom_Hoover reads Sgeo's Wikipedia user page. 22:00:28 This is a not-so-bad general-purpose pattern recognition book: http://cgi.di.uoa.gr/~stpatrec/welcome3d.html -- though the Bishop book http://www.amazon.com/Pattern-Recognition-Learning-Information-Statistics/dp/0387310738/ is not bad either, I hear. 22:00:38 Oh, look, he has e^(a+bi) and i^i there. 22:00:44 It's like cargo-cult maths. 22:00:51 Oh, there's already a Fourth Edition of Theodoridis & Koutroumbas. 22:00:52 hm single largest thing is handling walking the tree... due to handling all combinations of {pre,post,in}{left-to-right,right-to-left} 22:01:51 Unless he actually learnt calculus at some point. 22:02:49 Anyway, must dash. 22:02:54 i^i? what's the point? 22:03:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Page closed). 22:03:37 just an irrational real number *shrug* 22:04:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:07:50 -!- evincar has joined. 22:08:42 Phantom_Hoover_who_is_no_longer_here: Those two numbers have been there since Oct 2004. 22:15:11 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:16:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 22:17:33 Onwards and Debianwards! 22:18:54 Phantom_Hoover_, fizzie left an important message to you in the logs 22:19:34 14:08:42 Phantom_Hoover_who_is_no_longer_here: Those two numbers have been there since Oct 2004. 22:19:38 For some very small values of "important". 22:19:50 So Sgeo was what, 14? 22:19:56 Hmm? 22:20:05 fizzie, well, it wouldn't have sounded good if I had said "a message of no actual consequence" 22:20:19 Vorpal: Good, no, honest, maybe. 22:20:27 Sgeo, I was pondering why you have e^(a+bi) and i^i on your user page. 22:20:54 When, by your own account, you're a few limits short of a differential. 22:21:10 I thought those were interesting 22:21:22 Although i^i still confuses me 22:21:32 Sgeo, OK, it goes like this: 22:21:52 fizzie, since truth <=> beauty, so follows that beauty <=> truth (since <=> is symmetrical) 22:21:55 i^i = -1^(½i) 22:22:13 fizzie, and thus it must be true that it was important 22:22:20 = e^a 22:22:39 what is confusing about i^i? 22:22:41 a? 22:22:48 Sgeo, just a variable. 22:23:12 if it had turned out to be, 1 or pi or something I could have understood... 22:23:12 a = ½i ln -1 22:23:49 Since e^i*pi = -1, ln -1 = i*pi 22:24:07 Phantom_Hoover_, indeed. and that is a lot more interesting than plain i^i 22:24:17 That... makes sense 22:24:26 -!- elliott` has joined. 22:24:33 Hence a = ... -pi? Wait, I'm confusing myself. 22:24:37 Debian -- the only operating system that ships with two graphical web browsers! 22:24:48 elliott`, in the default install? 22:24:50 That looks way more complicated than just going e^(pi/2*i) = i => i^i = (e^(pi/2*i))^i = e^(i*(pi/2)*i) = e^(-pi/2). 22:24:51 And I don't have Mathematica any more. 22:24:57 Vorpal: Yes. 22:25:01 Vorpal: Epiphany and Iceweasel. 22:25:06 elliott`, huh, why 22:25:16 Vorpal: Because GNOME ships with Epiphany and Epiphany sucks, I'd guess :) 22:25:17 fizzie, ah, so we get the same result. 22:25:18 Good. 22:25:25 Debian's "gnome" package is stock GNOME + Debian extras. 22:25:36 Presumably Iceweasel is among the extras. 22:25:41 Why, exactly, is e^ai defined to be cos a + i sin a? 22:25:42 elliott`, they don't have it split in multiple packages? 22:25:52 Sgeo, Taylor series. 22:25:55 Vorpal: Yes they do. 22:26:03 Phantom_Hoover_, damn you beat me to it 22:26:29 Explaining that in IRC is an exercise in futility, though. 22:26:45 Phantom_Hoover_, taylor series? indeed... 22:27:33 I don't completely understand how they work myself 22:27:36 *Basically*, e^ix = 1 + ix - x^2/2! - ix^3/3!... 22:28:02 Vorpal: And shockingly, it even almost works with YouTube out of the box! 22:28:15 elliott`, "almost"? 22:28:22 cos x (in radians) = 1 - x^2/2! + x^4/4!... 22:28:26 elliott`, I never had problems with youtube-dl ;P 22:28:33 Vorpal: It loads the UI and everything, it just says "An unknown error has occurred" instead of the video. 22:28:38 sin x = x - x^3/3! + x^5/5!... 22:28:39 GNASH POWER 22:28:43 Phantom_Hoover_, the confusing bit is *why* it is so 22:28:47 elliott`, haha 22:28:52 No wait -- 22:28:56 "An error occurred, please try again later." 22:29:03 You know, like in a few years. When Gnash works. 22:29:23 elliott`, is it an error message from gnash or from youtube? 22:29:34 Jewtube. 22:29:47 http://www.jewtube.com/ It exists! 22:29:55 elliott`, what is that page? 22:29:57 Vorpal, well, I can't explain that without calculus, which Sgeo doesn't seem to exude confidence in. 22:29:58 do I dare click? 22:30:00 e^(i(a+bi)) = e^(ia + ibi) = e^(-b + ai) = cos(a+bi) + i sin (a+bi) = (e^-b)(cos a + i sin a) 22:30:11 Vorpal: It's YouTube for Jews. 22:30:12 Phantom_Hoover_, I know the basics. 22:30:32 Sgeo: What, exactly, do they teach you in US high school? 22:30:45 Phantom_Hoover_, personally I always found discrete math way easier than calculus. And less of a hell when it came to exams too. 22:30:46 Do you get trigonometry at 17 or something? Don't answer that, I imagine the result will be depressing. 22:30:57 Sgeo, OK, so d/dx(e^ax) = ae^ax. 22:31:12 Pleasepleaseplease tell me you know the chain rule. 22:31:15 Yes 22:31:18 elliott`, I doubt they teach Taylor series are in high school though 22:31:26 elliott`, even in UK 22:31:29 Vorpal, they do in Scotland. 22:31:33 Sgeo: Was that yes to my question or Phantom_Hoover_'s? 22:31:34 Phantom_Hoover_, wow 22:31:37 Well, we did Maclaurin series. 22:31:43 Phantom_Hoover_'s 22:31:45 Phantom_Hoover_, hm? 22:32:00 Vorpal: I think Taylor series are in the Sixth Form Further Maths course or whatever. 22:32:02 Vorpal, a subset of Taylor series. 22:32:15 They're in AH (final year) maths in Scotland. 22:32:15 Phantom_Hoover_, ah, right. Rings a bell now 22:32:30 Although I think I was too unfocused to recognize the applicability until you mentioned it 22:32:32 >.> 22:33:00 Vorpal: Maclaurin series are definitely in sixth form further maths. 22:33:01 Just googled. 22:33:13 Vorpal: Now watch as I try and disable root's password and switch to sudo ENTIRELY FROM WITHIN GNOME 22:33:14 elliott`, I see. Not around here though. 22:33:28 elliott`, how would that be hard? just open gnome-terminal 22:33:36 Phantom_Hoover_, ...ok 22:33:38 Vorpal: That would end up directly invoking non-GNOME programs :) 22:33:39 Um 22:33:48 You just seemed to have stopped talking 22:33:52 elliott`, then it probably can't be done 22:33:56 Sgeo, this next bit requires quite a lot of algebra. 22:34:41 O...k? I'm too tired to work anything out, but I can follow along 22:35:29 Erm... OK, so we want f(x) = a_0 + a_1x + a_2x^2 + ... for some f. 22:36:05 Oh, to approximate e^x? 22:36:06 e^ax 22:36:29 Well, the infinite series _is_ f(x) here. 22:36:34 I... think I see where you're going with this 22:36:58 Vorpal: Well, I just added myself to the sudo group using GNOME. 22:37:04 Do we really need to deal with the a? 22:37:12 Can we just look at e^x to simplify our lives? 22:37:16 elliott`, why do you hate su btw? 22:37:33 Sgeo, well, it's no great difference. 22:37:38 Becaus then a_0 + a_1x + a_2x^2 + ... = a_1 + 2a_2x + ... 22:37:48 Vorpal: Did I ever say I hate su? 22:37:55 elliott`, no but you acted like it 22:38:00 No I didn't. 22:38:03 Or is that not the direction we're going? 22:38:08 I don't hate su; I like sudo more, at least for a desktop. 22:38:13 mhm 22:38:15 elliott`, why is that? 22:38:29 OK, so f'(x) = a_1 + 2a_2x + 3a_3x^2 + ... 22:38:36 You have almost certainly heard all the arguments and come up with counter-arguments, so what's the point? 22:38:51 Phantom_Hoover_, thank you for reminding me why I prefer discrete math. 22:39:15 elliott`, personally I don't care about sudo vs. su 22:39:21 * Sgeo decides to pretend that descrete math doesn't exist 22:39:34 f''(x) = 2a_2x + 3*2a_3x^2 + 4*3a_4x^3 + .. 22:39:59 Vorpal: If I didn't use sudo, I'd just have root's password be my user password, which is absurd. 22:40:05 elliott`, well okay, sudo is somewhat more complex than su, thus potentially prone to more bugs. I do remember seeing the occasional CVE for sudo, but su? not as far as I can remember. 22:40:19 f'*n(0) = n!a_n 22:40:20 Vorpal: Now the fun thing the last time I used Debian/GNOME was that PolicyKit's default confiugration really loves su, so it's hard to set it properly. 22:40:27 (where f'*n is the nth derivative) 22:40:29 Wait what? 22:40:29 elliott`, eh I'm not sure I completely agree that is an effect of using su 22:40:33 but for some perhaps 22:40:33 Oh 22:40:34 0 22:40:41 Vorpal: For me, yes. 22:40:43 Vorpal: sudo is not, as far as I know, significantly more complex than su. 22:40:48 Wait what? 22:40:50 Vorpal: Also, su is a lot older, so it's likely to be much more mature. 22:40:56 Phantom_Hoover_, you forgot a term in f''(x) 22:41:12 Sgeo, right you are. 22:41:40 Yeah, decrease all the exponents there by one. 22:41:53 Anyway, can you understand the f'*n(0) bit? 22:42:15 Yes 22:42:40 Although out of curiosity, is there a strict and formal way to do that? 22:42:44 elliott`, su is: check password, start shell. sudo is: read config file, parse it (and it has quite a lot of features, such as only allowing editing of files as a different user and what not), then check if we should keep some env vars, and discard some (as specified in the config), then ask user for own or target password, or none at all (as specified in the config) and so on 22:42:52 Or is it just noticing the pattern and having a strong grasp why it is what it is? 22:43:08 Sgeo, yes, it's simple enough induction, but formalising it is pointless here. 22:43:17 elliott`, so yes, I would call it a bit more complex 22:43:18 Vorpal: It's a fucking *desktop* 22:43:23 elliott`, true 22:43:27 Anyway, a_n = f'*n(0)/n!. 22:43:32 elliott`, I have nothing very much against sudo. I use it myself 22:43:34 "such as only allowing editing of files as a different user and what not" ;; afaik it's actually just command-based 22:43:43 elliott`, I was just wondering why *you* preferred sudo over su 22:43:53 Hence f(x) = f(0) + f'(0)x + f''(0)x^2/2! +... 22:44:06 Vorpal: 'Cuz I like it. 22:44:13 mind = blown 22:44:32 That last formula is the definition of a Maclaurin series, by the way. 22:44:51 That is absolutely amazing and beautiful 22:45:21 So in the case of e^x, f'*n(0) = 1, and f(x) = 1 + x + x^2/2! + x^3/3! + ... 22:45:57 elliott`, okay... 22:46:22 You should be able to see for yourself that the derivatives of e^ix cycle between e^ix, ie^ix, -e^ix and -ie^ix. 22:46:36 Since you just multiply by i each time. 22:47:01 Oh, that's why we were talking about e^ax 22:47:11 Hence f'*n(0) cycles 1, i, -1, i, ... 22:47:19 *-i for that last one. 22:47:23 [21:44] That is absolutely amazing and beautiful 22:47:26 wait 'til you see euler's equation 22:47:30 :P 22:47:37 That's what I'm getting to... 22:48:21 OK, the derivatives of sin x cycle along sin x, cos x, -sin x, -cos x, ... 22:48:39 Same for cos x, but with the phase shifted along by one. 22:48:43 kind of weird that i, pi, e ties so neatly to together when you think about it. 22:49:22 Hence f'*n(0) = 0, 1, 0, -1, ... for sin and 1, 0, -1, 0, ... for cos. 22:49:32 -!- kar8nga has joined. 22:49:59 So sin x = x - x^3/3! + x^5/5! - ... 22:50:26 And cos x = 1 - x^2/2! + x^4/4! - ... 22:51:47 e^ix = 1 + ix + -x^2/2! + -x^3/3! 22:51:48 -!- elliott` has quit (Quit: Page closed). 22:51:53 + ... ? 22:52:10 Wait 22:52:16 Now, e^ix = (1 - x^2/2! + x^4/4! - ...) + i(x - x^3/3! + x^5/5! - ...) 22:52:19 That should be -ix^3/3! 22:52:46 -!- iGO has quit. 22:53:06 Those two brackets are the exact series for sin and cos, so e^ix = cos x + i sin x. 22:53:10 Q.E.D. 22:54:14 Thank you 22:54:18 That's beautiful 22:54:58 Sgeo: Staggeringly. 22:55:49 It's tremendous fun to derive, too. 23:01:26 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: Dickin' around doin' nuthin'.). 23:02:20 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:07:13 -!- elliott has joined. 23:09:21 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:09:25 Interesting Decisions, #N: Shipping TeX fonts by default. Why? I don't know... 23:09:45 Sure makes the font selector a lot more irritating to use, though. 23:10:05 -!- sftp has joined. 23:10:18 -!- elliott has quit (Client Quit). 23:11:58 uy 23:12:05 -!- elliott has joined. 23:12:10 All this mathematics has made me forget to install Debian. 23:12:36 Phantom_Hoover_: 64-bit, right? 23:12:39 http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/squeeze_di_beta1/amd64/iso-cd/debian-squeeze-di-beta1-amd64-netinst.iso 23:12:41 Have fun. 23:12:52 beh 23:13:02 bare debian is not funny 23:13:11 nooga: "Bare" Debian comes with GNOME these days. 23:13:18 And Firef^WIceweasel. 23:13:32 oh 23:13:38 -!- Zuu has joined. 23:13:41 wait 'til you see euler's equation <-- his identity or his formula? I don't remember one called "equation" 23:13:46 Er, identity. 23:13:50 elliott, ah 23:13:56 nooga: At least if you don't untick "Graphical environment", which presumably only someone not wanting a graphical environment would do. 23:13:57 elliott, then indeed 23:14:10 Phantom_Hoover_: There's a small bit of tweaking to get it workings udo-style, if you want, afterwards, but stock Debian is actually perfectly usable. 23:14:34 *working sudo-style, 23:14:40 * elliott tells GNOME he wants to use Iceweasel, not Epiphany. 23:14:46 (You see, the thing is, Epiphany sucks.) 23:14:49 What have they got against su? 23:14:57 They use su by default. 23:15:00 *sudo 23:15:00 I don't :) 23:15:02 -!- Zuu_ has joined. 23:15:32 Phantom_Hoover_: They just don't ship it by default and there's no obvious way to configure gksu/PolicyKit. However, once you're in the sudo group, it's just one gconf edit and one file copy and quick edit. 23:15:41 XChat fails at text rendering when you change the font settings, brb. 23:15:42 -!- elliott has quit (Client Quit). 23:16:01 But what do they have against sudo? 23:16:16 -!- elliott has joined. 23:17:26 "Sources confirmed that while searching for a fertile female politician with whom to repopulate Congress, DeFazio discovered the body of a still-breathing Christine O'Donnell and crushed her neck with the heel of his shoe." 23:17:29 -!- elliott_ has joined. 23:17:33 Dear peer: wtf did I do wrong? 23:17:51 15:16:01 But what do they have against sudo? 23:17:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:17:59 Gregor, ah, that explains everything? 23:18:02 *. 23:18:13 Same thing they have against $anything_they_don't_ship_by_default_for_whatever_reason; nothing, they just don't ship it by default. 23:20:51 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:21:44 I think I'll move my home directory over piecemeal, rather than all at once. 23:21:47 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott. 23:21:50 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host). 23:21:50 -!- elliott has joined. 23:21:59 Phantom_Hoover_: No separate home partition?! !OOZOZMOOMOMG (note: i don't have one either) 23:22:07 No, I do. 23:22:12 Then just re-use it. 23:22:39 Yeah, but I'm wary of bunging every setting from Ubuntu straight into minimalistic Debian. 23:23:01 Phantom_Hoover_: Just rm -rf .* 23:23:09 Phantom_Hoover_: Also, um, you have a terrible impression of Debian. 23:23:20 OK, yes 23:23:28 Debian default installer is almost identical to Ubuntu that takes a bit more fiddling to get how you want :P 23:23:30 I wasn't complaining, but anyway... 23:23:39 But I'd just remove all settings, really. 23:23:59 I have a couple of conf files I'd quite like to keep... 23:24:02 It's a new OS, new configuration! New hassle! 23:24:16 My .zshrc, for one thing. 23:24:49 zsh users, aka bash users minus a few years 23:24:53 And one or two app-specific folders. 23:25:07 elliott, you're just jealous! 23:25:12 No, I used zsh for ages. 23:25:15 brb 23:25:30 Phantom_Hoover_, don't do rm -rf .* 23:25:32 Phantom_Hoover_, bad idea 23:25:51 Vorpal: The man with no sense of sarcasm. 23:25:53 Phantom_Hoover_, you would lose stuff like saved passwords in mozilla, ssh keys, gpg keys 23:25:58 and so on 23:26:23 I usually -- when updating, that is -- just move my whole home directory to something like "_" or "oldhome" or "archive", and then lie to myself that I'll sort through it on my leisure. 23:26:28 Phantom_Hoover_, alternatively: the man who spent too much time in distro support channels 23:26:46 (Leading to paths like ~/_/oldhome/archive/prog/_/archived_prog/old/...) 23:26:47 fizzie, what distro would mangle it? 23:27:04 _Any_ time in distro support channels is too much time. 23:27:07 so that you need to move stuff away 23:27:08 Oh, it's just that I like a clean start. 23:27:17 fizzie, huh okay 23:27:24 fizzie, you don't use rolling release then 23:28:01 Vorpal: stop being stupid and making points by condescending assumptions you know to be false 23:28:05 fizzie is an avid Debianer :P 23:28:10 well, for some definition of avid. 23:28:14 Vorpal: The man with no sense of sarcasm. 23:28:17 well it was figurative 23:28:20 elliott, oh is he? I didn't remember that 23:28:20 "delete all configuration" 23:28:56 elliott, I just concluded that he didn't use rolling release based on the evidence 23:29:44 That's not really any sort of evidence. 23:30:06 * Phantom_Hoover_ feels like an idiot. 23:30:16 How am I meant to get the ISO onto a flash drive? 23:30:19 fizzie, well, it would be rather ill-defined what a major upgrade on rolling release was. And if it was every upgrade it would be rather inconvenient since they happen all the time 23:30:28 Phantom_Hoover_, unetbootin? 23:30:39 Last reinstall was when switching from Debian to Ubuntu on this workstation. (But I still have all other computers here Debian installations, so I'm still an avid Debianer, just a bit less avid.) 23:31:17 And the one before that when I switched in some much larger HDs, and took that as a good chance to pretend I'd clean up my ~ again. 23:31:41 Phantom_Hoover_, alternative answers: Using a computer. By plugging the flash drive into the relevant (probably USB) port. 23:31:48 So no, I don't wipe out ~ on every "aptitude upgrade". 23:31:50 I suspect the first one was most useful though 23:31:57 Vorpal, I effing guessed the second one. 23:32:05 Phantom_Hoover_, :P 23:32:07 I assume I can't just dd across. 23:32:20 Phantom_Hoover_, iirc you need a special boot sector 23:32:25 Phantom_Hoover_, unetbootin is easy to use 23:33:05 Phantom_Hoover_, GUI program and all that 23:37:23 night → 23:37:29 [[# Trigonometry or Algebra 3 or Pre-Calculus: ages 15+]] — WP, on the US maths curriculum. 23:37:44 [[# Calculus: ages 16+ (usually seen in 12th grade, if at all; some honors students may see it earlier).]] AAA 23:38:15 Waitaminute, that's the normal age in Scotland. 23:38:25 I'm just young for my year. 23:49:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:54:15 pikhq: did you see my complaint about Oklahoma? 2010-11-04: 00:02:31 -!- oklopol has joined. 00:03:06 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 00:03:09 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 00:03:11 okokokokokokokokokokoko 00:03:14 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 00:03:16 okokokokokokokoko 00:03:22 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 00:03:26 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 00:03:29 okokokokokokokokokokokoko 00:03:36 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 00:03:40 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 00:03:41 okokokokokokokoko 00:03:46 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 00:03:51 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 00:03:54 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 00:03:59 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 00:04:02 okokokokokokokokokoko 00:04:03 okokokokokoko 00:04:07 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko 00:04:10 hi everyone 00:04:13 my name is oklopol 00:04:17 oklopol ominovorol 00:04:19 and i'm here to stay 00:06:05 MonoDevelop or SharpDevelop? 00:06:28 SharpDevelop 00:07:06 Elaborate? 00:07:20 it has more BAZAP 00:07:32 ...? 00:07:38 it has a nicer name 00:08:26 what's sharpdevelop? 00:08:54 http://www.icsharpcode.net/opensource/sd/ 00:09:45 right 00:09:50 a text editor 00:10:48 I'm just going to go ahead and assume that both SharpDevelop and MonoDevelop are more lightweight than Visual Studio 00:11:06 visual studio i've used, it's a nice text editor 00:12:36 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:12:55 oklopol: why are you here to stay? 00:13:48 why wouldn't i be? 00:16:08 oklopol: saying 'okokoko...' lots of times 00:16:31 mathnerd is noob 00:16:38 hi okky!!! 00:16:41 ;) 00:16:57 okokokokoko 00:17:24 elliott: exactly. when did you come to this realization? 00:17:31 coppro: Mrf 00:17:46 pikhq: agreed 00:17:51 when you dissed okky 00:18:59 yeah everyone learns to love me with time 00:19:18 yup 00:19:25 elliott: ah, ok. 00:19:57 hey Mathnerd314, are you a math nerd 00:20:02 elliott: so do you think I'm a noob in general or just in context of okky? 00:20:29 too complex question 00:20:32 okokokokokoko 00:20:34 oklopol: I would say so, from a biased perspective 00:21:10 what kind of math nerdity do you do 00:23:27 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah 00:23:36 thin lens approximation in 3d 00:23:48 oklopol: abstract algebra, mostly 00:23:53 ooh 00:23:55 how do i find that goddamn transformation matrix 00:24:00 what algebras 00:24:11 NAOAAOAOAOOAOA 00:24:18 do you like 00:24:22 best 00:25:32 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:28:16 oklopol: commutative ones 00:28:51 -!- sftp has joined. 00:29:02 tell me something cool about them 00:29:54 rather hard, since we're studying *noncommutative* algebras :p 00:31:03 so what are the operations, do algebras where you just have a commutative operator have some common properties, or are we talking about + and * 00:31:57 commutative algebras seem to consist mostly of rings, ideals, and modules, all of which have both + and * 00:32:17 an ideal is an algebra? 00:32:19 in what sense 00:32:28 hmm 00:32:49 multiplication operators and addition? does each ideal give you a module like that? 00:33:57 clarification: are we talking about fields of mathematics or specific types of mathematical objects? 00:34:17 i think we're talking about objects 00:35:22 my specific question is 00:35:29 ohh 00:35:42 " commutative algebras seem to consist mostly of rings, ideals, and modules, all of which have both + and *" <<< so this was about fields, not objects 00:36:10 yes. s/algebras/algebra/ 00:37:34 so 00:37:41 tell me something about noncommutative algebras 00:37:54 something sexy 00:39:20 what i've done with algebra recently was inventing homomorphisms, i came up with this marvellous way to associate semigroups and groups to algebras, and of course it was just a convoluted implementation of homomorphism (semi)groups 00:39:23 I don't know about "sexy"... but all semisimple ones are just matrices 00:40:41 so first of all what do we have, we have a... ring? or do we have an algebra in the sense ring-module-hybrid 00:41:08 i haven't done noncommutative algebra, so i can't really jump into a vague explanation, you'll have to set theory it up 00:41:19 oklopol: a ring 00:41:22 okay 00:41:23 cool 00:41:35 semisimple? 00:42:39 "but all semisimple ones are just matrices" <<< if a ring has the property of semisimplicity, you can implement the ring as a ring of matrices? 00:42:52 "for all modules over this ring, every submodule has a complement so that the module is a direct sum of the submodule and its complement" 00:43:08 ^ semisimple 00:43:18 (ring) 00:43:28 there must be a clever pun about how non-simple that definition is 00:43:35 let me see if i get it 00:44:10 okay that seems natural enough i guess 00:45:46 so was my interpretation up there correct 00:46:26 yeah, pretty much. 00:47:24 they might be some weird-looking matrices though 00:47:41 given R, i don't really know at all what modules over it are 00:49:16 a module is something that it makes sense to multiply by an element of the ring 00:49:32 for example, you can multiply vectors by a scalar 00:49:57 so a module is that operation, but without constraints like commutativity etc. 00:50:08 module = abelian group + scalar multiplication by ring elements, with some compatibility axioms, right 00:50:34 hmm 00:51:22 i'm completely wrong ain't i 00:51:35 no, that looks about right 00:52:13 i was just wondering 00:52:22 ah just non-commutative ring 00:53:21 i was wondering where non-commutativity can be found if the vectors form an abelian group, but that place is the ring 00:54:27 whose result is that, and from what year, are you a researcher, do you have a degree, do you have publications, and what do you work on 00:57:08 "theorem about semisimple rings", ~20-30 years ago (IIRC), no, no, not much 00:58:26 * Mathnerd314 rereads and wikipedia's 00:58:37 oh, it's the Artin-Wedderburn theorem 00:58:45 never was much for names though 00:58:56 oh me neither 00:59:18 well 00:59:38 i can't associate them to the theorems very well, so i tend not to care about them for that reason 01:02:12 i was mainly wondering if that was something you had been working on, you never know 01:05:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:05:33 back 01:06:36 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:06:36 phanty revealed his age, he 01:06:37 heh 01:06:41 oklopol: it's just a math course I'm taking now, mostly for fun 01:10:09 btw you had less answers than i had questions, methinks 01:10:35 Mathnerd314 has failed his duty to oklopol. 01:10:40 oklopol: oerjan's disappeared :( 01:10:44 ? 01:10:45 he hasn't been in here for like 10, 11 days 01:10:46 :o 01:10:55 which he's never done before, afaik 01:10:59 also he has no life so a holiday is unlikely :) 01:11:25 oklopol: so what was this Norwegian guy, name starts with V 01:11:33 oklopol: said you were there, norway hostname, lilja came in soon after 01:11:40 we stayed at his house 01:11:55 oklopol: so you were the only one of them who hates us too much to log in :D 01:12:09 well i don't carry my computer around 01:12:13 i hate computers 01:12:20 :) 01:12:50 oklopol: so by "here to stay", do you mean you're not going to suddenly not be here for ages, or do you just mean for today 01:13:15 good question 01:14:06 oklopol: well if it's the latter, i will make sure finland gets bombed 01:14:08 just sayin' 01:14:16 ;) 01:14:54 oklopol likes bombs too much 01:17:33 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:17:54 oklopol: indeed, I've been taking notes than memorizing the material, because I probably won't see anything like it again 01:18:09 *rather than memorizing 01:18:10 God. Rand Paul won his race. 01:18:15 Rand fucking Paul. 01:18:28 yes, the USA is retarded 01:18:37 pikhq: is there something wrong with Rand Paul? 01:18:38 it should be illegal for rand paul to have such a close name to ron paul 01:18:45 Mathnerd314: nono the personal questions 01:18:47 Mathnerd314: He is fucking crazy. 01:18:48 did anyone pass a balanced budget requirement? 01:18:50 i listed questions 01:18:53 because if he did, looooooooooool 01:18:53 elliott: You can blame Ron Paul for that. 01:19:02 pikhq: why not rand paul 01:19:06 and you answered one less than i asked, not sure which you omitted 01:19:09 his name isn't rand paul it's randal howard paul 01:19:10 elliott: Rand Paul is Ron Paul's son. 01:19:20 oh 01:19:23 SO HE IS 01:19:28 balanced budgets are totally wrong for governments 01:19:39 oklopol: oh, just make it 3 no's instead of 2 01:19:39 pikhq: the fact that rand paul is middle-aged says something about how old ron paul is :) 01:19:53 coppro: Well, there was a ballot question on whether or not to forbid the state from *taking out any loans* here. 01:20:14 Please tell me that tapeworm one passed in Washington. 01:20:27 pikhq: oh god 01:20:39 do you ever feel that most of this should be in #esoteric-blah rather than #esoteric ? 01:20:42 please tell me it failed 01:20:44 i propose that the state is not allowed to spend money 01:20:45 Mathnerd314: no 01:20:57 Mathnerd314: none of us are hierarchy and organisation-obsessed enough to disrupt the flow like that 01:21:02 but yes, most of #esoteric is off-topic. 01:21:25 coppro: It failed hardcore. 01:21:35 phew 01:21:42 coppro: 73% against. 01:21:48 your populace has demonstrated basic macroeconomic literacy 01:21:49 what state? 01:21:53 Colorado. 01:21:53 elliott: is #esoblah disorganized enough? 01:22:06 Mathnerd314: we like talking about random shit 01:22:08 if you want esolangs talk 01:22:12 say something esolang-related and interesting :) 01:22:14 coppro: There were also questions about reducing/eliminating various taxes. 01:22:44 pikhq: and? 01:22:56 actually, you know what, I'll look myself 01:23:06 pikhq: what? you're in colorado too? 01:23:10 coppro: For instance, halving property tax, halving income tax, maxing vehicle taxes to $100 a year, and eliminating property taxes on those who use state-owned land for a private use. 01:23:21 coppro: All of them failed. 01:23:25 Mathnerd314: Yeah. 01:23:25 -!- jcp has joined. 01:24:39 why did Amendment P fail? 01:25:10 ballotpedia is cool 01:25:21 yes, that's what I'm looking on 01:25:25 coppro: It would cost a small amount of money this year if enacted, I guess? 01:25:29 coppro: "Amendment P, which would move regulation of all games of chance into the Department of Revenue, would ultimately have the effect of reducing cost — or should have that effect....However, there’s a $116,000 expected startup cost, which in another year might be fine, but this year is not. Vote against." 01:25:38 also the one below which just opposed all constitutional amendments 01:26:11 pikhq: you're even in driving distance. 01:26:15 coppro: Not too upset about it failing, though. Sure, it'd be beneficial, but it's a structural detail that doesn't matter *too* much, y'know? 01:26:20 Mathnerd314: Orly? Where are you? 01:26:26 At least prop 19 was only beaten by a small margin. 01:26:34 (54 to 46, rounding) 01:26:37 pikhq: colorado springs, next to the interstate 01:26:37 (percent, that is) 01:26:51 Mathnerd314: Which side of town? 01:28:09 pikhq: north-ish 01:28:09 I'm kinda amazed anyone was opposed to Amendment Q. 01:28:24 Mathnerd314: Mmm... 01:28:43 Mathnerd314: May have to meet up sometime for God-knows-what. 01:28:56 pikhq: geohashing! 01:29:04 pikhq: The Steamboat Today appears to be the only media outlet to disapprove of Amendment Q because of its strange no-constitutional-amendments policy. 01:29:18 [[Some of this fall’s ballot measures are more innocent, such as Amendment P and its attempt to transfer oversight of licenses bingo and raffle games to the Department of Revenue, and Amendment Q, which would establish a process for temporarily moving the seat of state government from Denver in the event of a disaster. But we hardly see the need for them. Why spend $116,000 to transfer gaming oversight to a different department when the current s 01:29:19 seems to have worked just fine?]] 01:29:29 elliott: Aaand so 42% of people voted against it‽ 01:29:31 I have no idea who the Steambot Today are. 01:29:37 pikhq: PROTEST VOET 01:29:37 elliott: Nor do I. 01:30:06 *boat 01:30:16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steamboat_Pilot_%26_Today 01:30:30 http://www.steamboatpilot.com/news/2010/oct/20/our-view-vote-no-state-amendments/ 01:31:33 * Sgeo hugs version control 01:31:37 Mathnerd314: It would be really easy for me to get whereever you are; I'm currently going to school at PPCC (Centennial campus) 01:31:52 It was easy to change the VS2010 project back into a VS2008 project 01:32:28 So. Few miles on I25 away. 01:32:40 I hate version control. 01:32:42 glad to see that Colorado hates prolifers 01:33:01 coppro: Only all that popular in El Paso County. 01:33:04 elliott, uhh 01:33:09 coppro: The land of fundamentalists and retards. 01:33:20 coppro: Oh, and rural areas, but they can... Kinda be ignored. 01:33:35 http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/11/conspiracy-theories.html Someone tried to buy Britain! 01:33:40 The government, that is. 01:33:57 coppro: I'm prolific; I'm a prolifer, one could say. 01:35:33 HAHA "megabucks" 01:35:37 Its chairman came to me and said, "We have this extraordinary request to assist in a major financial reconstruction. It is megabucks, but we need your help to assist us in understanding whether this business is legitimate". 01:35:48 It is megabucks. 01:35:51 Quite so indeed. 01:37:41 elliott: I strongly suspect that the Queen in Right of Britain is not for sale. 01:37:52 pikhq: Read the quote. It's... interesting. 01:37:59 pikhq: google maps claims it takes 18 minutes to get to PPCC. I guess that's reasonable. 01:38:06 pikhq: [[I have had one of the biggest experiences in the laundering of terrorist money and funny money that anyone has had in the City. I have handled billions of pounds of terrorist money.]] [[My biggest terrorist client was the IRA and I am pleased to say that I managed to write off more than £1 billion of its money.]] [[I hasten to add that it is no good getting the police in, because I shall immediately call the Bank of England as my defence 01:38:06 ss, given that it put me in to deal with these problems.]] 01:38:15 Mathnerd314: Seems 'bout right. 01:38:28 Mathnerd314: Might be shorter from here to PPCC, though. 01:38:38 ("here" being Woodmen and 24) 01:38:49 Mathnerd314: Erm, from here *than* from PPCC. 01:40:04 elliott: What the hell? 01:40:05 pikhq: I like how you're not shocked at all :P 01:40:07 pikhq: Oh, there we go. 01:40:45 pikhq: no, that's even father 01:40:59 Mathnerd314: Mmkay. 01:41:09 *farther 01:41:21 elliott: A random shady organization actually tried to *buy the UK*. 01:41:30 * Mathnerd314 should be doing homework instead of mispelling things on IRC 01:41:43 pikhq: It appears that this Lord is, ehm, off his rocker. 01:41:55 pikhq: It is likely that he laundered money and then promptly displaced his entire collection of marbles. 01:42:03 Lord De Mauley [Government Whip]: The noble Lord is into his fifteenth minute. I wonder whether he can draw his remarks to a conclusion. 01:42:09 Looks like he's, well, just crazy :P 01:42:32 One hopes. 01:43:33 "Reads like the setup for the biggest advance fee fraud in history, doesn't it?" 01:43:36 --comment 01:44:56 http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/house_of_lords/newsid_9146000/9146065.stm 2h34m in 01:45:35 [[b. It may or may not speak to Lord James' sanity that his last noteworthy appearance was during a debate on immigration on 21 October, in which he referred to an obscene song about Hermann Goering trying to have sex with a kangaroo.]] 01:45:57 http://www.theyworkforyou.com/lords/?id=2010-10-21a.903.2&s=speaker%3A13880#g923.0 01:48:12 pikhq: What's that organisation that OWNS EVERY STOCK EVER? 01:50:49 pikhq: I forget its name. 01:50:58 elliott: the government? 01:51:10 Mathnerd314: Haw haw. No, the actual corporation that owns 99% of all stocks. 01:51:19 (Buying a stock without them involves actual physical stock certificates.) 01:51:31 (99% of all stocks worldwide, that is) 01:51:48 http://ming.tv/flemming2.php/__show_article/_a000010-000923.htm ? 01:52:30 yes 01:52:36 them 01:52:39 pikhq: Clearly they'er the ones. 01:52:57 -!- iamcal has joined. 01:53:20 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:54:20 elliott: Depository Trust & Clearing Corporation 01:54:27 Right. 01:54:35 Wait, 99% of stocks in the US, but most stocks in other countries. Whatever. 01:55:03 They could hypothetically purchase a continent.\ 01:55:31 [[Instead, what they typically do is to put the stocks into the name of "Cede and Company" or "Cede & Co" or some such variation. And the broker might tell you that it is just a fictitious name, and will explain why it is really more practical to do that than to put it in your name. 01:55:31 The problem with that is that it appears that Cede isn't just some dummy name, but an actual corporation that DTCC controls.]] 01:55:39 pikhq: Looks like I believe in conspiracy theories now. 01:56:04 elliott: They're not really conspiracy theories if they're very well-known facts. 01:56:06 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: Later). 01:56:14 pikhq: Very well-known, scary, scary facts. 01:56:19 elliott: Yes. 01:56:26 pikhq: Also: Very well-known by who? 01:56:33 elliott: Every stock broker. 01:56:44 pikhq: Which is... the conspiracy, more or less. 01:56:46 elliott: Congress. 01:56:51 elliott: The few souls who watch CSPAN. 01:56:52 pikhq: Conspiracy theories are known inside the conspiracy? Zomg :P 01:57:32 elliott: Okay, okay. The point is, it's not exactly a conspiracy theory if all the reasoning or evidence for it is a matter of public record that anyone could easily find if they cared to. 01:57:38 elliott: It's instead just fucking scary. 01:57:43 pikhq: Hid in plain sight... 02:01:54 Is Cede & Co necessarily a bad thing? 02:03:00 Sgeo: They could crash the world economy in an instant. 02:03:06 how? 02:03:20 who cares about who owns what? 02:03:26 Mathnerd314: Several ways. 02:03:53 Mathnerd314: "Fuck you, we're getting rid of our stocks because we like cocaine and hookers." 02:03:57 THE NEXT DAY 02:03:58 Mathnerd314: They could simply fire every single CEO at once, thereby causing crisis. 02:04:00 "where go stocks" 02:04:26 Mathnerd314: They could dissolve every company. 02:04:41 Mathnerd314: They could assume control of every company. 02:05:01 pikhq: hmm? how? 02:05:23 Uh, they are merely a trust. 02:06:26 And thus pikhq was assassinated. 02:07:53 coppro: IIRC, they're basically not regulated at all, but, uh, pikhq knows more about this than me. 02:08:14 elliott: They do not own shares, they keep them in trust 02:08:30 coppro: Uhh, they do own the shares, the "shareholder" is just the beneficiary. 02:08:39 oh, really? 02:08:40 hrm 02:08:42 The stocks are in the name of DTCC. 02:08:47 Or "Cede & Co". 02:08:55 I thought they were just a trust 02:09:00 coppro: No -- they own the shares. 02:09:19 Because ha ha ha why would it be something REASONABLE like THAT 02:13:42 elliott: actually, I'm looking it up now 02:13:45 they legally own the shares 02:13:52 however, they are not stockholders 02:13:56 and thus have no legal power 02:14:03 hmm 02:14:09 pikhq's looked into this more than i have, i defer to him, but okay. 02:14:27 (except for the companies that they are actually invested in, of course) 02:15:21 coppro: Uuuh, how the hell does *that* work? The "stockholders" actually have no rights over those shares at all. 02:15:56 Are things even screwier than I thought? 02:16:29 pikhq: no, they do 02:16:30 that's the thing 02:17:50 coppro: *How*? 02:18:05 pikhq: because Cede legally owns the shares, but does not have the legal rights of a shareholder 02:18:15 coppro: *How does that work at all*. 02:18:23 the system is screwy, but it is better than them just owning everything 02:18:40 pikhq: exactly how it sounds 02:19:24 coppro: It sounds like you're proposing a spherical cube. 02:19:48 pikhq: it's very simple 02:20:02 it's like having land with an easement over the entire property 02:20:54 Fucking hell I hate the legal system. 02:21:10 I keep forgetting that it would allow for spherical cubes. 02:22:03 Okay, so Cede & Co. *could* just go and burn all the stocks thereby causing a global panic. But other than that their ownership is somewhat meaningless. 02:22:06 spherical cubes? Like the TIME CUBE 02:22:23 hmm yeah, what would happen if they simply burned everything? ignoring the illegality (is it illegal?) 02:22:52 elliott: It may be illegal, but the resulting hard crash of everything would make prosecution very difficult. 02:23:02 woot woot i propose we do it 02:23:14 elliott: I'm guessing they'd just print them out again 02:23:31 I think we're talking abot metaphorical burning 02:23:35 abot 02:23:36 Abott 02:23:46 Flatland 02:23:48 Active Worlds 02:23:50 C# 02:23:54 Yes, we're talking Abott metaphorical burning. 02:23:56 no, literal burning. 02:24:03 Mathnerd314: Who, Cede & Co.? 02:24:07 Mathnerd314: In this scenario, they have decided that fuck people. 02:24:47 So, this is just another way that everything depends on a single person not going apeshit-crazy. 02:24:58 elliott: I don't *think* the world would end if the stock market crashed. 02:25:06 (another such way is, well. The President of the US could at a moment's notice end life.) 02:25:15 elliott: so it wouldn't end if the stock market disappears either 02:25:24 elliott: or if the stocks are burned... 02:25:34 Mathnerd314: Yes, but the economy would crash *hard*. 02:25:34 Mathnerd314: remember the great depression? 02:25:39 it's sort of like 1,000 times worse than that 02:25:41 or more 02:25:42 elliott: no :p 02:25:54 Mathnerd314: All the money would be gone. 02:25:56 i think if the stock market crashed an awful lot of people would die. 02:25:59 Mathnerd314: Yes, all of it. 02:25:59 like 02:26:02 literally, crashed completely 02:26:04 pikhq, um 02:26:05 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:26:18 Wouldn't single-celled life still live? 02:26:18 pikhq: whatever, people start bartering 02:26:28 Or at least some of it? 02:26:42 * elliott stabs Sgeo to death 02:26:43 Sgeo: Radiodurans would. 02:26:58 Mathnerd314: You have a terribly naïve view of the world :P 02:27:05 -!- wareya has joined. 02:27:14 Mathnerd314: Okay, so we go back several millenia. 02:27:16 It can survive vacuu,? o.O 02:27:17 elliott: YES. it's your job to fix it 02:27:18 Mathnerd314: That's "wonderful". 02:27:26 Sgeo: Yes, Radiodurans is fucking nuts. 02:27:35 The stock market crashing would not end society 02:27:36 Radiodurans? You mean "lots of nukes fly" scenario? 02:27:42 it would be Very Very Very Very Bad though 02:27:46 Mathnerd314: RAPE AND DESPAIR 02:27:50 Ilari, radiodurans is a bacterium 02:27:54 Ilari: The entire US stockpile. 02:27:54 coppro: it would end *western* society 02:27:55 bacteria? 02:28:00 Ilari, radiodurans is a bacterium 02:28:01 ORLY 02:28:19 elliott: Bacterium can also refer to a single species of bacteria. 02:28:20 elliott: no. we are retarded and would rebuild it worse 02:28:29 I thought Ilari didn't know what it was and didn't Google 02:28:45 Yeah, I know. And it takes A LOT of radiation to kill it (that's where it got its name). 02:29:11 elliott: suppose everyone suddenly just burned all the money and started doing things out of habit. would life go on as before? 02:29:19 Ilari: Yup. With nukes flying, radiodurans would be just fine. 02:29:37 How does that evolve? 02:29:39 Mathnerd314: You are ignorant of macroëconomics. 02:30:09 Mathnerd314: oh yeah 'cuz everyone would do that. 02:30:20 * elliott suspects Mathnerd314 is the naïve variety of anarchist 02:30:23 macroeconomics is scary 02:30:35 Aren't there also some molds that use ionizing radiation as energy source (found inside the infamous Chernobyl 4 reactor)? 02:30:37 pikhq: yes; I've done math but not econ 02:30:42 Ilari: Yeah. 02:30:53 Mathnerd314: go take an econ course or two 02:31:16 Ilari: yes 02:31:18 Ilari: which is awesome 02:31:29 Ilari: They use melanin. :) 02:31:40 elliott: Nation States characterizes me as "Left-Leaning College State" http://www.nationstates.net/nation=asdjeklcdh 02:31:53 nationstates has nothing to do with actual political preferences ZOMG 02:32:13 well, I've been doing it according to my naive views 02:32:21 NationStates is also naïve :P 02:32:24 It's a game. 02:32:36 ok... 02:32:38 Mathnerd314: This is a bit like using a gossip magazine quiz as an indicator. 02:32:38 "Following new legislation in FlagAsdjeklcdh, all forms of advertising are banned." 02:32:40 niiiice 02:32:42 Duct tape! 02:32:58 [pirate radio station] "THE NEW IPAD FROM APP[FZZZZZZZZZZZZZRKWRKWRKWKTEIOAJDIOJRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR]" 02:33:04 So I can't bring people to Sine? 02:33:08 Following new legislation in FlagAsdjeklcdh, the police have been reduced to using duct tape instead of handcuffs following further cutbacks. 02:33:26 elliott: yes, I never said I made sane decisions :p 02:33:28 "Following new legislation in FlagAsdjeklcdh, long arduous trials are held for the most trivial of offences." :D 02:33:47 I like Active Worlds 02:33:55 * Sgeo promptly gets arrested 02:33:56 Sgeo: you and all zero other people 02:34:03 * Sgeo breaks free from his duct tape 02:34:10 pikhq: obviously. I'm trying to show how little I know 02:35:15 Mathnerd314: Just FYI: currency actually came into existence soley because barter sucks. 02:35:26 [LOGREADING ME] play nationstates since you can't resist, nation is called Battletoadia 02:35:32 (developing from using precious metals for barter in lieu of anything actually useful.) 02:35:39 (because barter sucks.) 02:36:27 question 02:36:35 do the History/Government Style fields change anything? 02:36:36 Mathnerd314? 02:37:18 elliott: wikipedia has a good description of how it works - basically, nothing matters; they're just indicators 02:37:38 Mathnerd314: can you change government style? 02:37:40 who knows what i'll become 02:38:51 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 02:39:35 Mathnerd314 was then promptly shot by the CIA 02:39:49 elliott: yeah, you just make decisions every day or so 02:40:09 Mathnerd314: yes but the actual Government Style field 02:40:12 i have played before, just don't recall it 02:40:14 on the registration page 02:40:21 Sensible / Liberal / Conservative / etc. 02:41:08 elliott: read wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Government:_NationStates 02:42:28 Mathnerd314: does not answer my question :P 02:42:34 i know what the government description things are 02:42:40 i'm talking about the actual text box 02:42:43 on the signup page 02:42:53 Does war exist now? 02:42:58 elliott: no 02:43:01 Sgeo: no 02:43:12 Grah 02:43:15 So where's the fun 02:43:18 5 questions a da 02:43:19 day 02:43:21 Grah 02:43:36 Sgeo has huge psychological issues with answering 02:43:42 Mathnerd314: no what? 02:43:54 No, I mean... that's it, from what I recall 02:44:02 Indeed. 02:44:07 pikhq: I recall using the wirr instead of a currency 02:44:36 Name the currency, name the nation, choose a location 02:44:41 Answer 5 questions a day 02:44:44 And.. that's it 02:44:47 That's the whole thing 02:44:53 Unless more was added/ 02:45:23 http://www.nationstates.net/nation=sgeo 02:45:31 This was .... from many, many, years ago 02:46:37 [[I bring regards from Region Inc I'd like to ask for you to join our region where YOU have a chance to take part in the government and more.]] 02:46:40 I JUST SIGNED UP MORON 02:46:52 "A loose coalition of sartorially-challenged individuals known as "Let It All Hang Out" has called on the government to relax public nudity laws. 02:46:52 " 02:47:41 http://www.nationstates.net/nation=battletoadia 02:47:43 NEED MOAR QUESTIONS 02:48:05 * elliott sets to two per day. 02:48:14 & with that, adieu. 02:48:15 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:48:28 Why did I make it illegal to make racist remarks? What did I do to freedom of speech o.O? 02:49:07 Sgeo: You raped it, much like Glenn Beck. 02:49:13 2710 days ago 02:49:32 That's when I signed this nation up 02:49:58 * Sgeo decides not to tamper with it 02:51:31 -!- jcp has joined. 02:54:15 pikhq: have you heard of the wirr? 02:57:00 Nope. 02:58:28 something to do with "individual mutualism" 03:02:22 "Judicial activism". Stupidest god damned term ever. 03:03:14 The US is common law, people. Judges have the power and the obligation to make law. Deal with it. 03:09:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:11:51 -!- iamcal has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:26:47 pikhq: how did it get so quiet after elliott left? 03:30:27 pikhq: c'mon, we're in the same timezone. you can't be asleep *this* early 03:30:30 I think that question answered itself. 03:31:01 yeah, it did. :-/ 03:32:47 -!- cal153 has joined. 03:35:25 Mathnerd314: I'm procrastinating on homework ATM. 03:35:25 Quite skillfully, for that matter. 03:36:10 really? that's what I'm doing too! (less adeptly of course) 03:40:41 pikhq: when is your homework due? mine is due tomorrow. 03:42:08 Tomorrow as well. 03:43:57 pikhq: is it math homework? 03:44:30 Yes. 03:44:45 I will probably go into automatic-integration-mode in a few minutes. 03:47:32 * Mathnerd314 checks ppcc course list 03:50:13 why is their course listing an 8 MB pdf with hundreds of crappy pictures...? 03:50:24 Because the smart people leave after two years. 03:50:35 As do the dumb people. 03:50:41 Leaving them with complete and utter morons. 03:51:54 pikhq: calc 3? 03:52:01 Yup. 03:52:21 yay, totally took that last semester :p 03:53:10 (at UCCS) 03:54:01 Yeah, but I'm a cheap bastard. 03:54:02 :P 03:55:14 uccs even looks closer... 03:56:06 pikhq: but ppcc doesn't offer the course I'm taking now, namely Modern Analysis 03:56:53 but I guess I get shielded from price differences because D20 is kind enough to pay my tuition 03:57:41 D20? 03:58:23 also, UCCS and PPCC? 03:58:38 all I know of is the PPCA 03:58:58 also, "Modern" analysis? 03:58:58 coppro: (public school) District 20; University of Colorado, Colorado Springs; and Pikes Peak Community College. 03:59:00 what is that? 03:59:08 ah, thanks 03:59:31 coppro: pikhq and I happen to live within ~25 miles of each other 03:59:37 yeah 03:59:42 how much is that in km? 04:00:09 ~50km 04:00:16 wrong 04:00:19 more like 40 04:00:44 and you're in math? :P 04:00:46 coppro: why ask if you know the answer? 04:00:48 coppro: I use the approximation of 2km/mile for ballpark figures like that. 04:01:07 Mathnerd314: because I want to see if you know 04:01:29 coppro: I know that it's actually 1.609344 kilometers per mile precisely, but it doesn't fucking matter for ballpark estimates like that. 04:01:35 also, I don't do calc 3 for a year 04:01:38 http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/ 04:01:39 coppro: google gives miles, so that's what I gave. tell me when the US has a bill to switch to metric. 04:01:46 Gregor: old 04:01:58 Mathnerd314: it'll probably be a referendum 04:02:03 Mathnerd314: I don't have a time machine to go back and tell you before your birth. 04:02:30 pikhq: that has a decent chance of getting passed 04:02:51 is it 4 am UTC yet? 04:04:04 Mathnerd314: Mendenhall Order. 1893. Metric has been official ever since. 04:05:00 Mathnerd314: Also, Metric Conversion Act of 1975. 04:05:34 http://bash.org/?926627 04:05:36 gnight 04:09:24 pikhq: ok, something that mandates use of the metric system 04:10:28 pikhq: particularly for signage 04:10:33 Mathnerd314: Until '98, a switch to metric for roads was planned to happen in 2000. 04:11:07 The problem is we *keep fucking stopping it*. 04:11:59 Fortunately, industry has started to beg for metrication. 04:12:13 Which might make it actually happen. 04:12:42 yay :-) 04:13:02 like I said, tell me when I get to vote / sign the petition / etc. 04:14:37 Also, the military is exclusively metric. 04:18:39 Wikipedia says *illegal drugs* are measured in metric 04:18:52 I'll bet Hitler used the metric system too! 04:21:52 Yes, he did. 04:22:02 Germany went metric in 1872. 04:23:53 Dear 1010 Wins: Please don't link to cybersquatted domains 04:24:44 Sgeo: what about rel=nofollow,noindex? 04:24:56 I didn't mean an actual link 04:25:04 They mentioned something in a story 04:25:11 http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/11/03/geo-tagging-the-dangers-of-posting-pictures-online/ 04:25:20 "The message was from Larry Pesce, the founder of icanstalkyou.com but its not what you think." 04:25:29 Guess what? icanstalkyou.com is cybersquatted 04:31:54 Well fuck. I can't find my textbook. 04:32:17 Oh, there. 04:33:09 the monster group scares me 04:33:16 monster group? 04:33:22 Are we bringing that rule back/ 04:33:53 Sgeo: typosquatting, really, since http://icanstalku.com/ is real 04:47:15 Sgeo: no, the monster group 04:47:16 Hah... If server certificate exceeds about 4kB, it'll overflow TCP window, leading to performance problems.... 04:47:16 it's a group 04:58:17 interesting question: has the president ever been ill? 04:58:29 yes 04:58:37 when? 04:58:56 one of your presidents died from health problems 04:59:02 lurn istry thx 04:59:30 well, Obama might have been a germophobe and never gotten sick 05:00:55 see, the question was even in the news: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/27/AR2009042703597.html 05:01:52 coppro: can't you see that I was asking about Obama? 05:18:24 Nomics can have civil wars? 05:18:33 I've fantasized about Agora havng a civil war 05:18:34 But.. 05:19:18 Ok, that page is confusing 05:24:14 WTF is Nano programming language 05:26:09 It's supposedly inspired by Vala and Scala 05:26:57 Then it should be named Nala. 05:26:57 Or Nanala. 05:49:28 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.11/20101012113537]). 06:06:08 -!- augur has joined. 06:06:20 oklopol! 06:18:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:04:31 -!- balharius has joined. 07:04:33 hello DCC SEND "string" 0 0 0 07:08:10 ... what a strange greeting 07:08:59 alas, I have to leave for university now 07:16:27 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:16:28 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:16:45 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:28:04 -!- balharius has quit (K-Lined). 07:46:37 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:42:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:43:53 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523_. 09:44:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:47:53 -!- sbszulu has joined. 10:19:54 -!- sbszulu has left (?). 11:38:12 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:04:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 12:23:48 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 12:25:06 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:34:21 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:35:37 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:46:00 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:48:32 -!- sftp has joined. 13:11:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:20:10 -!- atrapado has joined. 13:53:32 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed). 14:02:32 hm would a bignum brainfuck without - be TC? 14:04:02 or effectively, a 1-bit BF with "set bit" but no "clear bit"? 14:04:05 I think quite possibly 14:05:11 ais523, hm, are you sure that is equivalent? 14:10:01 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 14:10:13 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:11:11 ais523, I don't see any easy way to show that answering one of those questions would answer the other. For a start, with an infinite tape of bignums you would have a larger state than with an infinite tape of single bits, unless I completely mixed up something. 14:12:22 the states for the bignum case would be uncountable, while for the bit case they would be countable, no? 14:52:06 Vorpal: given that [] is the only command that cares about the value of a number, no values above 1 could be distinguished 14:52:23 meanwhile, something to ponder: is there a number exactly equal to the number of Google results for that number? 14:55:18 ais523: 14:55:20 htkallas@pc112:/share/cog/corpora/google_ngram/dvd1/data/1gms$ zcat vocab.gz | egrep '^([0-9][0-9]*) \1$' 14:55:20 15491 15491 14:56:04 Okay, so that's not exactly "google results", but in their "one trillion words from the internet" database, the number 15491 occurs 15491 times (or in 15491 documents, I forget the exact definition). 14:57:08 Actual google results for 15491 are 2,300,000, though; the google 1T ngram corpus is a very small part of the internet indeed. 14:57:47 (It is the only number there that matches.) 15:00:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:02:06 Well now, that's rude! 15:20:00 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:21:31 fizzie, presumably his connection broke? 15:22:10 unless it was a joke about a remote host being rude 15:22:19 Nah, it must be some form of conscientious discrimination. I'll sue. 15:22:26 XD 15:22:34 fizzie, he lives in UK not US 15:23:41 Oh, right. Then I won't sue. What's the UK equivalent? Maim? 15:24:06 haha 15:24:50 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:25:25 fizzie, know any really good init system? upstart has a nice syntax for config files and does the right thing when it comes to supervising. But due to being event based rather than dependency based it tends to start more than it should. Just because foo is up doesn't mean everything depending on foo should start. 15:26:09 -!- nooga has joined. 15:26:13 Not really, no; I haven't even compared the well-known ones. 15:26:16 systemd seems to get the dependency stuff right, and possibly also supervising. But config files are based on .ini like syntax... Which is quite nasty for this purpose.. 15:27:14 Found any with XML configs yet?-) 15:27:18 systemd also does deps inetd style when possible, creating sockets first and making things trying to connect to them trigger starting that thing (or block until it is up if it is already starting) 15:27:24 fizzie, it seems solaris uses that 15:27:43 Heh, wouldn't be too surprised. It's an Enterprise System, after all. 15:27:52 but I'm looking for one that would work on linux and even a quick glance at it indicates it is very specific to solaris 15:28:01 also license is... the usual weird one 15:28:37 fizzie, oh and systemd seems to have it's roots in the fedora/freedesktop.org caps. Which explains the config syntax at least... 15:29:21 I guess OS X's launchd has configuration that is apple-property-list and therefore indirectly XML-based, sort-of. 15:29:42 fizzie, hm idea: use make -C /etc/init -j boot or such 15:30:06 I have a vague notion I've heard of a make-based init system, but maybe that was a dream or something. 15:30:12 fizzie, launchd does a lot of the actual dependency stuff and so on the right way. 15:30:33 -!- jcp has joined. 15:31:08 "The Ubuntu Linux distribution considered using launchd in 2006. However, launchd was rejected as an option because it was released under the Apple Public Source License – which at the time was described as an "inescapable licence problem".[4]" 15:31:16 Oh, so they've even considered that. One wonders how seriously. 15:31:18 the main issue with a make based one seems to be that you have to ensure that starting a daemon actually creates a file and that if a daemon dies the file actually gets removed. Even if it dies due to crashing or such 15:31:35 also lack of supervisor 15:31:48 which would make it as bad as sysvinit 15:32:49 upstart syntax + systemd features seems like the perfect dream 15:32:52 "-- minimyth [a MythTV-centred distribution] is now defaulting to using a make based init system rather than an sh based init system --" 15:33:12 I somehow read that as "MythBusters-centered" 15:33:14 XD 15:33:27 So... explodes every week? 15:33:38 hah 15:34:05 anyway, neither sh-based one nor make-based one provides the critical supervising feature 15:37:01 It's not exactly necessarily for service-supervision to be wed with init, but as you wish. 15:37:32 systemd seems to move a lot of stuff from shell scripts into C and then into systemd itself directly 15:37:35 that sounds problematic 15:38:12 I'm not sure what sort of stuff yet. But it could very well be stuff that only fits well into a redhatish distro. 15:40:39 -!- nooga has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 15:43:21 also means recompiling init just to change that stuff 15:53:17 http://i.imgur.com/M39RA.png 15:54:48 fizzie: make based init system? wtf? 15:54:55 how does that even work? 15:56:04 Well, you know, make can run programs and all. Anyway, that was just from a forum posting. Based on the rest, I'd have to say "not very well" about how it works. 15:56:41 how about "wrong tool for the job" lol 15:57:37 It does sort-of handle dependencies for you. 15:57:45 Perhaps not a very good fit, still. 16:03:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:09:07 lol 16:12:06 hm, binaries produced by ghc tends to be large.... Otherwise haskell would be a nice language to write an init system in 16:14:01 why 16:15:27 why what 16:22:23 yes 16:23:06 ... 16:23:32 :' 16:23:35 . 16:23:47 ' 16:23:51 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:23:51 16:26:11 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:27:03 -!- jcp has joined. 16:27:13 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 17:01:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:05:52 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:06:13 -!- Zuu has joined. 17:22:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:27:15 Somebody please tell me Debian's netinstall thing supports WPA networks. 17:37:46 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:42:11 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:44:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:45:33 -!- sftp has joined. 17:46:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:46:38 I miss anything? 17:47:06 Phantom_Hoover, Don't you know your own mind best? 17:47:23 Vorpal, OK, you know about networks and stuff. 17:47:30 -!- augur has joined. 17:47:38 Does Debian's netinst support WPA networks? 17:47:59 Phantom_Hoover, while I do know a bit more than I want to about networks, I don't know about debian netinstall 17:48:05 * Gregor 's never used netinst for wireless, not to mention WPA :P 17:48:06 Phantom_Hoover, check if it has wpa_supplicant? 17:48:32 and yeah for installs I just plug in the ethernet cable 17:52:23 -!- Zuu has quit. 17:59:50 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 18:00:44 SMBC got hacked, and badly. 18:01:55 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:05:01 Phantom_Hoover, oh? 18:05:09 Phantom_Hoover, you mean the comic? 18:06:14 Yep. 18:06:48 http://www.theweinerworks.com/?p=86 has an account of it. 18:07:33 Phantom_Hoover, err, just reading a few lines in. They got hacked and *didn't* do a complete reinstall? 18:07:35 How stupid 18:08:23 Do I look like one acquainted with security? 18:08:28 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:08:39 Phantom_Hoover, hm? 18:08:56 It could be stupid; it might not be. 18:08:59 I don't know. 18:09:15 well as that blog post shows, it was stupid 18:10:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:12:05 -!- sftp has joined. 18:12:27 -!- cal153 has joined. 18:26:21 -!- elliott has joined. 18:28:18 elliott, have you ever used an xor linked list? 18:29:00 no. 18:29:08 you have asked me that before 18:29:14 no I doubt that 18:29:23 no, you have 18:29:40 elliott, unless it was several years ago, in which case: "do you expect me to remember that?" 18:29:48 it was a year ago at the most 18:29:49 i guess 18:29:50 whatever 18:29:53 hm 18:29:53 i don't know 18:29:57 Vorpal: i haven't, why? 18:30:48 elliott, well, I'm trying to figure out if they have completely died out in modern times. 18:31:03 thus my next question is: have you ever seen an xor linked list used? 18:31:07 no 18:31:16 xor linked list = linked list where every adjacent pair of nodes has a link in one direction, but not the other 18:31:23 if you're lucky, it can be pretty useful 18:31:28 ha 18:31:30 oklopol, heh 18:31:37 more complex code, memory is cheap, takes more cpu time, doesn't work with GC, doesn't work with debuggers 18:31:48 elliott, true 18:32:09 elliott, what about the xor swap trick? Used/seen it? 18:32:13 no change in algorithmic complexity 18:32:13 I would expect "no" here too 18:32:21 everyone has seen that 18:32:29 Vorpal: seen it, probably; used it, no 18:32:39 oh in a prog 18:32:40 i like languages that let me say "a, b = b,a " :P 18:32:42 oklopol, seen used in a context that wasn't about demonstrating the method I meant 18:32:42 *b, a" 18:32:51 yeah 18:33:36 elliott, indeed. 18:33:46 elliott, python does, doesn't it? 18:33:53 ofc 18:33:57 yes. i dislike python for different reasons entirely :) 18:34:08 hm do you need a tuple to do it in python or? 18:34:25 the a, b on the left isn't a tuple, it's syntax 18:34:30 ah 18:34:33 yeah 18:34:33 IMO 18:34:36 but the b, a on the right is a tuple 18:34:40 elliott, XD 18:34:41 there's no pattern matching or anything 18:34:41 a, b, c, d = x 18:34:44 unpacks the tuple x 18:34:47 into a b c and d 18:34:51 so a, b = b, a 18:34:53 equiv to 18:34:55 a, b = (b,a) 18:34:58 *b, a 18:35:01 you can figure out the rest 18:35:25 a, (b, c) = 5, get_my_pair() 18:35:38 that syntax on the lhs side always makes me think of erlang and haskell. Because it reminds me of pattern matching. 18:36:08 and then I wonder why I'm using python instead of one of them 18:40:42 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 18:43:08 elliott, hm, know any good /sbin/init implementation? upstart is good except for it's event based nature. systemd gets most stuff except the config file syntax right, though it is very geared towards fedora-like distros. 18:43:21 http://smarden.org/runit/ 18:43:35 or http://code.dogmap.org/svscan-1/ 18:43:41 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:44:06 elliott, does it do the "create sockets, start stuff on demand when they try to connect" kind of thing that systemd does? 18:44:11 or http://www.fefe.de/minit/ if you don't mind fefe software :P 18:44:18 Vorpal: uhh, that's what inetd is for. 18:44:23 (of whatever flavour) 18:44:35 elliott, um. Not exactly. Not when used the rather cleaver way when systemd does 18:44:42 which clever way is that 18:44:55 elliott, this page explains it better than I could: http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd.html 18:45:13 Vorpal: 0pointer.de/blog = the PulseAudio developer 18:45:15 elliott, it is a bit long, but very interesting and might be useful to you in your plans for new OS/distro 18:45:20 = idiot 18:45:39 elliott, yes I know, but it doesn't seem to idiotic in this case 18:45:39 (Lennart Poettering) 18:45:48 k i'll turn on my moron filter 18:46:06 Vorpal: let me guess first -- is it so that if you, like, run startx 18:46:09 and it looks for the x socket 18:46:11 x gets magically started? 18:46:28 elliott, could be, but not primary that. 18:47:09 "Most current systems that try to parallelize boot-up still synchronize the start-up of the various daemons involved: since Avahi needs D-Bus, D-Bus is started first, and only when D-Bus signals that it is ready, Avahi is started too." 18:47:14 this... scares me slightly, that this is a "bad thing" 18:47:22 let's subvert dependencies for slightly fasterness! 18:47:43 elliott, it lets you do stuff like start dbus at the same time as things that depend on dbus. And things that depend on dbus are not likely to be the very first thing they open. They probably read configs first and so on 18:47:51 which means you wait pointlessly 18:47:55 *probably* 18:48:13 elliott, yes but if it isn't then no harm done, the reading on the socket would just block 18:48:34 elliott, like when inetd is still starting the service, the thing blocks for a short time 18:48:52 elliott, systemd fails however because 1) idiotic config syntax (it is based on the .desktop file syntax...), 2) too geared towards fedora 18:49:20 systemd is in opensuse now. so there's that 18:49:41 Vorpal: anyway, i don't know -- systemd sounds like a rather large program. 18:49:44 well okay, still it would be a hard fit out of box on debian for exampel I think 18:49:44 SO different from Fedora :P 18:49:55 and while concurrent startup is good and starting up stuff you don't need is bad 18:50:03 elliott, the idea about sockets used that way seems to be from launchd btw. And os x starts fearsomely fast. 18:50:07 when it gets too fancy you're just insanely microöptimising 18:50:13 elliott, yes, and that is one of the issues with upstart 18:50:24 i wonder if the systemd authors ever thought "You know what, Avahi takes *too long* to start up. I have to start up *DBUS*!! I must rewrite init to make it faster." 18:50:24 and yes, systemd is overengineered 18:50:36 Vorpal: OS X's startup times are greatly underexaggerated :-) 18:50:46 a typical OS X desktop system takes like 20, 30s to start up fully 18:50:56 sometimes even 40s 18:50:59 elliott, to some extent. But you can interact with it before that in my experience 18:51:12 sure, spotlight would be a bit slow and so on 18:51:13 most of that time is spent in the apple-logo-and-spinner in my experience 18:51:18 it wasn't the fastest machine, but whatever :) 18:51:31 (2.1 ghz first-generation core 2 duo, either 1 or 2 gigs of ram depending on when i measured it) 18:51:34 elliott, right, My experience is that the time is spent after login in the bg 18:52:21 elliott, anyway, upstart does have that issue pointed out in the linked to page above 18:52:57 which issue? i'm trying to read it but it's bloody long and it could be a lot shorter 18:53:01 also i just woke up 18:53:16 elliott, didn't you just get home from school? 18:53:45 elliott, see the section "On Upstart" 18:53:51 my sleep schedule is beyond the ken of mere mortals 18:54:02 including me 18:54:05 * elliott /On Upstart 18:54:14 elliott, so... what do the teachers in school think about you then? 18:54:35 does anyone in the universe even think? is THINKING real? 18:54:45 just waking up is worse than sleep deprivation 18:54:46 moving on, 18:54:57 hah 18:55:25 elliott, easy to a morning person! I wish I was one... 18:55:57 "Or in other words, instead of having a clear goal and only doing the things it really needs to do to reach the goal, it does one step, and then after finishing it, it does all steps that possibly could follow it." this either makes no sense, or upstart is crazy 18:57:19 elliott, I looked at upstart and ubuntu take great care to avoid doing just that. Upstart files would certainly be shorter expressed with a dependency system instead of an event one. 18:57:27 they're not? 18:57:30 haha 18:57:32 that's stupid. 18:57:52 elliott, yes, apart from that upstart is very nice however 18:58:01 but it is, to my eyes, a major flaw 18:58:06 deal-braker imo 18:58:31 Vorpal: it appears that my opinions on init systems are in a bit of flux right now 18:58:53 Vorpal: my package management opinions appear to have decided on "slackware's is *almost* complex enough" after i realised how hard writing a mega package manager would be 18:59:26 elliott, a better idea that would keep the simplicity in upstart /sbin/init might be to have dependency syntax in the files and then have a separate program that generated the events from that. You could take advantage of that "caching" by putting it in one file (fewer disk access, and since the files are small, fewer read blocks) as well. 18:59:42 elliott, I like the nix package manager btw 18:59:59 so do i, so do i, but have you seen the /nix directory? i mean wow complexity man. 19:00:01 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando). 19:00:12 elliott, no I haven't, what is it for? 19:00:17 everything 19:00:23 /nix/store/packagename-LONGHASH/ is their root 19:00:24 and the like 19:00:29 and there's like 500 of them 19:00:33 and so many symlinks from the normal tree to them 19:00:37 elliott, oh and make -C /etc/init -j boot would seem perfect except that it doesn't provide the crucial supervising bit. And that still doesn't do the socket-masquerading and so on... 19:00:38 and i just get scared. 19:00:51 Vorpal: "-j boot" 19:00:52 what 19:00:55 isn't -j parallel 19:00:57 elliott, yes 19:01:00 and boot is a target 19:01:06 you would have shutdown as another target 19:01:09 Vorpal: since when does -j not require an argument? :) 19:01:41 elliott, since the day they made -j without argument mean "no limit" 19:01:51 i was not aware 19:01:52 elliott, which was before I started using make 19:01:58 Vorpal: i am not sure that is a good idea 19:02:02 you don't have infinite cores: ) 19:02:03 * :) 19:02:03 It's a great way to make your computer shit itself. 19:02:09 elliott, oh and you need to somehow delete target files if a daemon dies unexpectedly 19:02:18 Vorpal: just make every target phony? 19:02:31 or? 19:02:54 elliott, seems a bit messy, would mean you have to have logic to avoid dual starting in some other way 19:03:12 which would defeat much of the point and also make the dependency stuff not actually work as expected 19:03:25 debian tells me that it's using "makefile-style [concurrent? i forget] init" every time i start it up :) 19:03:51 elliott, wrt -j: booting is not a CPU bound task most of the time, IO bound is quite common 19:03:54 or a mix 19:04:02 fine :P 19:04:06 and sometimes waiting for, say, a reply from a dhcp server 19:04:28 elliott, with two such tasks and -j2 you would stall stuff for no good reason 19:04:47 i remember when /sbin/init was a shell script mumble fnumble 19:05:19 elliott, and actually -j doesn't hurt a lot. Context switches aren't that important to performance. But with building software you would end up exhausting memory on most systems. 19:05:26 which would not be likely at boot 19:05:31 -j is optimal with bfs :P 19:05:56 so gnash is now playing youtube vidyos!! 19:05:58 elliott, only for building software or other CPU bound tasks. 19:05:58 choppily 19:06:26 elliott, and -j would be a tiny bit slower with CPU bound but not significantly so 19:06:55 "Mr. McCane, you are... a douchebag. That's right, a *douchebag*." -- Hikaru Sulu 19:07:57 elliott, defining characteristics for compiling that are not defining for booting: CPU bound *and* memory intensive. Very little IO bound usually. 19:08:04 linking can be IO bound sometimes 19:08:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:08:41 elliott, that quote: what? 19:08:52 Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UACK93xF-FE 19:09:03 in which george takei is badass 19:11:11 http://github.com/git/git git git git git git git git 19:12:05 elliott, that movie, is it just me or is it mono on one ear? 19:12:20 can't tell, laptop speakers, but it does seem so 19:12:45 elliott, I use headphones and it makes it quite hard to hear when you only hear it on one ear 19:12:57 Use mplayer or something to duplicate the channel :P 19:14:03 HAY GUYS I FOUND A TUTORIAL ON HASKELL ZIPPERS 19:14:05 SGEO WILL BE SO HAPPY 19:14:06 http://learnyouahaskell.com/zippers 19:14:41 Now if only we all weren't fighting so hard to assure Sgeo's unhappiness. 19:14:50 elliott, hm sadly this does not exist: https://github.com/git/git/git (also wtf at that 404 image) 19:15:08 It's octocat. 19:15:10 (looks like a cross between an octopus and hello kitty) 19:15:13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hm3E2cGQE4 19:15:19 elliott, yes, I did indeed say wtf about it 19:16:14 Gregor: We make sure to kill Sgeo every day 19:16:32 Now if only we all weren't fighting so hard to assure Sgeo's unhappiness. <-- what? 19:17:04 elliott: Oh shoot, now Vorpal's found out people are working to assure others' unhappiness, and soon enough he'll realize we're working to ensure his unhappiness too. 19:17:19 I MEAN, UH, NOTHING, HI! 19:17:21 Let's kill them both. 19:17:49 Gregor, yes I know you are all douchbags. 19:18:08 but of course, it doesn't work. 19:18:08 fail 19:18:24 I've never put a douch in a bag. 19:18:31 elliott, oh good point. 19:18:38 Whooooooooooooosh 19:18:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:19:01 elliott, how is that a whoooosh? 19:19:07 Finally, Debian finished installing. 19:19:10 How many of your anecdotes start with "So I was eating this baby when ..." 19:19:17 Vorpal: Try goggling "douch". 19:19:20 elliott, I know perfectly well it is probably a sexual joke 19:19:23 ... 19:19:25 YOU ARE STUPID 19:19:26 First point of order: make the font nice. 19:19:38 Phantom_Hoover: Font preferences, set hinting to Slight. 19:19:38 Done. 19:19:42 Oh god more fontophiles nooooooooooooooo 19:19:47 Phantom_Hoover: Avoid subpixel rendering; without Ubuntu's patches, it has obvious colour fringing. 19:19:56 Gregor: Jesus christ it lasted four lines. 19:19:57 elliott, I did notice my typo yes when you replied and decided to play along 19:20:11 elliott: You think I'm the messiah??? 19:20:11 Gregor: Even *Vorpal* has an opinion on what text hinting he likes, STFU 19:20:22 elliott: why, is nice subpixel rendering a dark secret known only to Canonical. 19:20:37 Phantom_Hoover: No, it's just that Debian are overly-cautious and Canonical don't care about US patents. 19:20:41 They're expired now but whatever. 19:21:02 Non-subpixel slight hinting looks fine, anyway, just takes a minute or two to adjust to. 19:21:28 * Phantom_Hoover has a slow, horrible realisation that he has no idea where the font preferences are. 19:21:57 Phantom_Hoover: System -> Preferences -> Appearance -> Fonts -> Details... 19:22:20 Ah, didn't notice the details thing. 19:23:26 FWIW, the subpixel rendering looks fine for me, but I'm probably just blind. 19:25:26 elliott, btw, at least on ubuntu firefox ignores that. You need to use ~/.fonts.conf for it 19:25:55 err 19:25:57 yeah 19:26:02 Vorpal: No it doesn't. 19:26:07 It used to, ages ago. 19:26:19 Phantom_Hoover: Trust me, it can be very obvious when it wants to be :P 19:26:36 Other things: what do I add to sudoers to let me use sudo? 19:26:40 elliott, it still does on lucid iirc but now the defaults are what you want. 19:26:43 so you don't notice it 19:26:49 Vorpal: Works on Debian. 19:26:55 Phantom_Hoover: You don't. 19:27:04 elliott, perhaps. 19:27:12 elliott: I add myself to the sudo group? 19:27:17 Phantom_Hoover: System -> Administration -> Users and Groups -> Manage Groups 19:27:26 Add yourself to sudo. 19:27:50 Phantom_Hoover: After that, I can tell you how to get the graphical tools using sudo as well and disable the root account password like Ubuntu; it's non-trivial. 19:28:10 But basically: 19:28:13 gconftool --type bool --set /apps/gksu/sudo-mode true 19:28:24 cp /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d/50-localauthority.conf /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d/90-customauthority.conf 19:28:35 Edit /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d/90-customauthority.conf and s/unix-user:0/unix-group:sudo/. 19:28:37 Save. 19:28:41 sudo passwd -d root 19:28:42 sudo passwd -l root 19:28:43 Reboot. 19:28:47 Ta-daaaaaaaaaaaa 19:29:01 Note: You need to log out and in again after adding yourself to the sudo group. 19:30:06 What do the second and third commands do? 19:30:32 Phantom_Hoover: Uhh, please quote them. 19:30:37 It's unclear waht constitutes a command there :P 19:30:42 *what 19:31:17 The cp /etc/polkit... and, (OK, it's not a command), to edit /etc/polkit... 19:31:51 Phantom_Hoover: That configures PolicyKit, which is like graphical sudo but ~capabilities~ and stuff. 19:32:12 Phantom_Hoover: You know how in Ubuntu when you used Software Centre it prompted for your password, but not with the usual dim-screen-and-ask-for-password box? 19:32:22 Phantom_Hoover: That's PolicyKit. In Debian it would ask for root's password instead. My change fixes that. 19:32:28 Yeah, I see. 19:33:55 this could be a bit simpler to set up but it isn't :) 19:34:01 Everything else is smooth. 19:34:29 Phantom_Hoover: By the way, my recommended mirror is the Swedish kernel.org mirror. 19:34:29 elliott, policykit seems horribly overengineered 19:34:35 mirrors.se.kernel.org 19:34:41 Vorpal: it is, but you also don't have a choice :) 19:34:48 elliott, sad 19:34:57 elliott, actually, why do I need it? 19:35:01 Vorpal: It's yet another one of the SELinux/AppArmour sillinesses, wherein people try and make Unix a modern OS and fail horribly. 19:35:05 Vorpal: Because shit uses it :P 19:35:21 elliott, it seems installed on arch too. And that doesn't use selinux or apparmour 19:35:32 You installed Gnome or something. 19:35:37 elliott, I do use gnome yes 19:35:38 GNOME depends on PolicyKit I think. 19:35:42 Indeed. 19:35:42 but not gdm or such hm 19:35:53 System -> Administration -> Users and Groups -> try and change something. 19:35:59 It'll probably pop up a PolicyKit authorisation window. 19:36:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Page closed). 19:36:16 Account type's Change... button is a sure-fire authentication dialogue. 19:36:54 elliott, actually nothing at all happens there 19:37:05 I don't think policykit is actually configured and running 19:37:11 Vorpal: Well, it's Arch. You don't expect them to test how dependencies fit together, do you? 19:37:13 Vorpal: policykit is not a daemon 19:37:17 ah 19:37:18 well 19:37:28 I feel like such a freetard. Every program on my system is totally Free! I can't install non-Free software without enabling a clearly-labelled repository! I even have freaking Gnash installed! 19:37:36 elliott, it could matter that I don't use gdm or such, I use startx 19:37:43 no 19:37:46 nothing to do with that 19:38:12 elliott, well, I know that usb devices won't automount by default on here unless I use gdm 19:38:17 I blame consolekit 19:38:37 I blame international jewry. 19:38:44 BUT THEN THEY'RE THE SOURCE OF ALL THE WORLD'S PROBLEMS 19:38:46 That and Ubuntu. 19:39:03 elliott, uh, clarification: I blame consolekit because I'm 99% sure it is the cause :P 19:39:32 You're not Jewish are you? *suspiciou 19:39:35 *suspicious glare* 19:39:41 :P 19:39:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_International_Jew lol henry ford 19:42:28 heh 19:43:57 -!- n1c0b has joined. 19:44:11 Vorpal: I fear GNOME 3. 19:44:25 Vorpal: GNOME Shell, no thanks. The question is, is the GNOME Panel still going to be maintained? 19:44:28 If not... FORK TIME 19:44:48 elliott, hm how does gnome 3 look? 19:44:48 -!- n1c0b has left (?). 19:45:00 elliott, and gnome shell? is that the terminal? 19:45:04 Vorpal: Just like GNOME 2 except... http://linux.softpedia.com/screenshots/GNOME-Shell_3.png 19:45:12 Vorpal: That's what happens when you put your mouse in the top-left hand corner. 19:45:19 Vorpal: The panel, ordinarily, looks just like the bit above. 19:45:29 That replaces all the menus, etc. 19:45:31 elliott, wtf 19:45:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:45:40 elliott, when will this be released? 19:45:46 elliott, I'm going to have to switch to xfce 19:45:51 Vorpal: GNOME 3, so 2011. 19:45:53 and who knows for how long that will last 19:45:55 Vorpal: No, gnome-panel will still be available. 19:46:02 Vorpal: I'm 99.99999% sure of that. 19:46:14 elliott, is it possible to make it look exactly like gnome 2 with clearlooks? 19:46:17 Vorpal: The question is in the next few releases, if they try and stop maintaining it... 19:46:26 Vorpal: Uhh, that *is* exactly GNOME 2 except with gnome-shell instead of gnome-panel. 19:46:42 Vorpal: http://vimeo.com/13797705 Here's GNOME Shell "in action". 19:46:49 (No flash yada yada not my problem blada blada) 19:47:02 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GrUtIEK1sk youtube version 19:47:23 (Well, it's actually a mockup. But whatever.) 19:47:46 Vorpal: Oh, and Ubuntu isn't going to use it. 19:48:04 Vorpal: They're going to make their netbook interface Unity work on desktops too and use thati nstead. 19:48:29 *that instead. 19:48:51 elliott, with an option to not use it? 19:48:52 elliott, or? 19:48:59 Vorpal: And use what instead? 19:49:06 elliott, oh my god 19:49:11 elliott, when is this going to happen? 19:49:25 Vorpal: And use what instead? 19:49:30 Vorpal: When is what going to happen? 19:49:38 elliott, well, something that works like gnome 2 19:49:48 elliott, when are they going to switch to that "unity" interface 19:49:51 All your sentences are ambiguous. 19:49:57 "with an option to not use it" -- talking about what 19:50:10 Vorpal: Uh, when GNOME Shell comes out. Because they don't like it. 19:50:14 elliott, option not to use it = not use the netbook interface, I mean traditional gnome 19:50:19 with the traditional panel 19:50:20 and so on 19:50:34 http://www.canonical.com/files/masthead/ubuntu-light/light.jpg this is what it looks like 19:50:46 elliott, aaaargh 19:51:00 Vorpal: It's actually funny how your only arguments about a terrible interface (GNOME Shell) are based on your terrible neural inability to handle the change of even a single pixel. 19:51:27 elliott, actually I do think xfce looks nice and that doesn't look exactly like gnome 19:51:31 By funny I mean that I was previously unaware that someone who thinks the right thing could somehow be more wrong than someone who thinks the wrong thing. 19:51:38 elliott, is it possible to make it look exactly like gnome 2 with clearlooks? 19:52:13 elliott, exactly was there used in an inexact way 19:52:49 -!- wareya_ has joined. 19:53:07 -!- comex has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 19:53:09 elliott, anyway, is xfce likely to stay the same for the foreseeable future or? 19:53:23 No, Xfce are merging with GNOME. 19:53:41 elliott, joke right? 19:53:47 No. 19:54:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:54:03 elliott, [citation needed] 19:54:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:54:32 I never said it was true. 19:54:38 elliott, -_- 19:54:49 I'm not joking, I'm lying! 19:54:57 Argh, it doesn't have Japanese character support! 19:55:06 Phantom_Hoover: You just don't have the fonts. 19:55:09 Phantom_Hoover: install ttf-takao 19:55:17 elliott, ... 19:55:27 What? 19:55:50 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:56:02 So are you two fighting over how awful GNOME is? 19:56:11 No. 19:56:17 Vorpal is just being whiny and I'm trying to irritate him. 19:56:41 Vorpal: Anyway, you *do* realise Xfce changes panel design all the time? 19:56:45 Vorpal: Xfce 4.2: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Xfce-4.2.2.png 19:56:49 elliott, you were whiny about the new gnome-panel replacement too! 19:56:50 Vorpal: Xfce 4.6: http://iamrajendra.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/xfce46.png 19:57:01 I wasn't whiny, I hate it because it sucks, you were just whining about everything that changed. 19:57:06 Anyway, see above two images. 19:57:20 elliott, so everything that changed sucked! 19:57:23 elliott, same thing 19:57:31 Anyway, see above two images. 19:57:34 elliott, and yeah, I would dislike that 19:58:12 * elliott makes mental note: if gnome stops maintaining the panel and I take up maintaining it, don't tell Vorpal 19:59:08 elliott, would fit your usual style 19:59:56 But we can all agree that KDE is garbage, right? 20:00:06 I'm more likely just to use the last gnome-panel release and keep updating the rest of GNOME if that happens. 20:00:50 Phantom_Hoover, yes indeed these days 20:00:54 Phantom_Hoover, it used to be good 20:01:30 elliott, hm twm stayed the same forever. Time to learn to love twm 20:01:35 ;) 20:02:21 Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, KDE 4 is a shitty UI. 20:02:36 elliott: That looks more like a change in the defaults more than anything. 20:02:38 All hail twm! 20:03:17 pikhq_: It is. 20:03:22 And so is using gnome-shell instead of gnome-panel. 20:03:39 Fair enough. 20:03:57 Gnash totally sucks 20:05:19 It does. 20:05:21 elliott, but it is FOSS! 20:05:27 Vorpal, and it sucks. 20:05:34 Phantom_Hoover, I didn't deny that 20:05:45 It does YouTube! Well, the audio doesn't lag if you're on a different tab, so there's that. 20:06:16 elliott, slow computer? 20:06:36 Well, YouTube is good enough for me. 20:06:40 Vorpal: no. 20:06:49 Vorpal: Well, it's not hot on the CPU, but Adobe Flash works just fine. 20:07:02 Phantom_Hoover: Video/audio freeze for a split second every few seconds. 20:07:04 In my experience. 20:07:30 elliott, problematic, but not quite *crippling*. 20:07:46 Although the first video I tried has very quiet audio. 20:08:38 This appears to be a general thing 20:10:22 Phantom_Hoover: Check system volume? WFM 20:10:25 My volume is at max, too; there's no obvious cause. 20:10:25 Or YouTube volume :P 20:10:36 Phantom_Hoover: $ alsamixer 20:10:41 Hmm, what is the system volume? 20:10:46 In your top-right corner. 20:10:56 Yeah, that's maxed. 20:11:04 elliott, hm 20:11:11 Phantom_Hoover: $ alsamixer 20:11:13 Worth a look. 20:11:26 Also maxed. 20:11:30 hurr durr 20:11:49 Phantom_Hoover, all of the controls in alsamixer are maxed? 20:11:54 Hmm, there's something called "Speaker" I just maxed. 20:11:58 * Phantom_Hoover tries again. 20:12:27 Ah, much better. 20:15:52 Phantom_Hoover, laptop? 20:16:08 Yep. 20:16:30 explains why it had such a specific name, instead of, say, "line out" or "analogue out" 20:16:45 Phantom_Hoover, also: just one speaker? 20:17:03 No, there were two controls. 20:17:13 They were tied, though. 20:17:40 Uhh, presumably one control with two stereo channels :P 20:17:44 Phantom_Hoover, huh, not the left/right side of one thing in alsamixer? 20:17:48 They're not tied if you use q and w or something. 20:17:57 elliott, indeed 20:18:03 Interestingly my Master here is just one channel; it was two in Ubuntu. 20:18:04 Vorpal, yes, that. 20:18:31

Forbidden

Your client does not have permission to get URL /search?q=x from this server. (Client IP address: 91.105.90.101)

20:18:34 Google don't like curl. 20:20:03 lol 20:20:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 20:20:58 Next point of order: change the theme to something nicer than Clearlooks. 20:22:01 Phantom_Hoover: Grey Mist! 20:22:11 curl -A Mozilla 'http://www.google.com/search?q=hello+world' | sed -n 's/.*resultStats>About \(.*\) results.*/\1/g;p' 20:22:13 Work, dammit, work. 20:22:34 Phantom_Hoover_: Unity is quite nice, from the default installed ones. 20:23:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:24:13 elliott, set the user agent to Mozilla 20:24:17 ah wait you did 20:24:21 Hurr :P 20:24:46 Now tell my why my sed doesn't work. 20:25:04 Greedy regexes? 20:25:15 elliott, what are you trying to do with it? 20:25:20 oh wait 20:25:45 Vorpal: what's the sed for "go to next line" again? :P 20:25:56 Bleargh, I hate sed. 20:25:58 elliott, uh, slipped my mind 20:26:10 All I want is "if this substitution succeeds, print the line"! 20:28:29 Oh, no! The middle click doesn't work any more! 20:28:51 Phantom_Hoover_: ...? 20:29:23 On Ubuntu, tapping the top-right corner of the touchpad middle-clicked. 20:29:29 It doesn't any more. 20:29:41 Phantom_Hoover_: Go into Mouse preferences. 20:29:44 There's probably something there. 20:29:56 Maybe :P 20:30:54 Nope. 20:31:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 20:32:31 http://i.imgur.com/zDzYt.jpg this makes me want to succumb to the minecraft hype 20:35:14 http://towardsdawns.blogspot.com/ This too. 20:36:16 Phantom_Hoover, gpointingdevicesettings? 20:36:22 (might be missing some - in there) 20:36:49 Phantom_Hoover, it can probably set that 20:37:15 http://live.gnome.org/GPointingDeviceSettings 20:37:22 "Today I decided to ask for adopter of GPointingDeviceSettings. The single reason is that I no longer have hardware (touchpad) needed to diagnose most of bugs which appear within it." 20:37:24 Would help. :P 20:37:35 elliott, heh :P 20:37:57 Bah! That's it. I'm buying Minecraft. 20:38:16 elliott, didn't manage to play the classical online either? 20:38:28 Well I could. But the Alpha looks so nice. 20:38:37 elliott, I never got the non-alpha to work :( 20:38:42 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:38:53 hm I could try on that non x86-64 perhaps... 20:39:47 Vorpal: you need the sun jvm 20:40:59 elliott, not openjdk? 20:41:21 "Download Minecraft.jar, an executable jar file. It might work as-is. 20:41:21 If you run into out of memory errors, try launching it with java -Xmx1024M -Xms512M -cp Minecraft.jar net.minecraft.LauncherFrame 20:41:22 Also, please make sure you're running the Sun JVM... " 20:41:22 for the alpha 20:41:26 so i'd assume the same goes for classic too 20:41:39 ah 20:42:08 W T F "ehird" is taken 20:42:15 oh wait 20:42:17 it's me! 20:42:18 elliott, except alpha worked up until login for me with openjdk 20:42:26 Vorpal: you bought it? 20:42:40 Hey, my account must be super-old... I must have registered this when Hideous told me about it, and that was in very early days... 20:42:53 Vorpal: Alpha costs money, so presumably it won't let you in if you don't buy it :P 20:43:50 Oh of *course* I remember when it was single-player only. 20:44:10 minecraft dot ... jar!? 20:44:18 olsner: It's written in Java :P 20:44:23 eugh 20:44:38 olsner: Winge winge winge, if it wasn't it'd be Windows-only. 20:45:50 elliott, I decompiled minecraft alpha .jar btw. Pointless, it downloads another jar after logging in and getting a session token. 20:46:06 java is after all easy to decompile 20:46:44 heh, clever, auto-updates 20:47:17 so you need to get your hands of the data directory of someone who's already logged in and downloaded the stuff 20:48:05 olsner: and watch as it doesn't let you talk to the server because you're not authenticated 20:48:45 just write your own server 20:49:05 olsner: It's perfectly legal to use one of the third-party servers for free :P 20:49:07 The server is up for download. 20:49:13 So, congrats, you failed at rebellion! 20:49:34 so then you just need to remove the checks from the downloaded jar you download 20:49:48 ...??? Or just tell it to connect to a different server. 20:50:00 I don't think olsner quite grasps how this works. 20:50:16 oh, that easy? I thought it tried to authenticate the client before letting you in 20:50:28 well, dunno; the server is up for download 20:50:35 and so is the actual minecraft jar 20:50:45 so one would assume you're allowed to just set up your own server 20:50:50 especially as those already exist 20:50:57 & i've heard friends saying they just use third-party servers 20:52:07 Woo, single-player classic starts. 20:52:55 Sweet, my card can't handle the AWESOME 20:56:21 so you need to get your hands of the data directory of someone who's already logged in and downloaded the stuff <-- yes 20:57:57 elliott, would you send me the data dir? just for trying it out you understand. Since I can't get the classical version to work... If I can get it to work and like it enough to play it more than an hour or two I would buy it. 20:58:01 elliott, gyaah what version of Debian is this? 20:58:12 but wasting that money without being able to test it first? nah 20:58:13 Phantom_Hoover: Um, testing. 20:58:21 Phantom_Hoover: Right now it is called "squeeze". 20:58:36 Phantom_Hoover: It is currently frozen; after squeeze's release, it will begin to be updated regularly again. 20:58:41 Vorpal: You see, I would but I haven't bought it yet :P 20:58:49 Vorpal: Making sure I can play it without ZOMGSLOW first. 20:59:07 Vorpal: also surely you'd need a premium account on the server? 20:59:12 it *is* a networked game after all 20:59:14 i... think 20:59:38 elliott, I mean *if* you buy it 20:59:46 right 20:59:51 elliott, you don't need a premium account except for downloading it 20:59:57 you can play it offline after that 21:00:01 by checking a box 21:00:39 elliott, it says you have to login at least once but based on decompiling it decides you haven't logged in at least once due to the downloaded files missing 21:00:49 heh 21:00:59 elliott, unless the main jar have some additional checks, it should work fine 21:01:13 * elliott assumes distorted game music is due to appletness 21:01:22 elliott, you got the applet to work? 21:01:23 wtf 21:01:25 elliott, how? 21:01:31 Vorpal: Step 1. Install sun-java6-plugin. 21:01:34 Step 2. There is no step 2. 21:01:37 ah 21:01:51 elliott, that is the partner repo right? it isn't in multiverse at least 21:01:58 Vorpal: No, not partner. 21:02:02 elliott, then where? 21:02:07 elliott, on ubuntu 21:02:16 Vorpal: SUCKS TO BE YOU. 21:02:19 "non-free" :P I'm googling 21:02:26 Vorpal: It's in non-free on Debian. 21:02:30 For Ubuntu 10.04 LTS, the sun-java6 packages have been dropped from the ... 21:02:32 HA HA HA HA HA 21:02:36 elliott, ouch 21:02:40 Vorpal: Try just installing the icedtea plugin or something. 21:02:41 It might work! 21:02:51 Yeah, try that; should work just fine. 21:02:52 elliott, well icedtea + openjdk did not 21:02:53 hm 21:03:03 Vorpal: the browser plugin may be a separate package 21:03:05 ah 21:03:11 it is with the sun JRE 21:03:25 Weird that OpenJDK wouldn't work; it's almost exactly the same as the Sun JVM. 21:03:28 * elliott tries openjdk himself 21:03:38 icedtea depends on openjdk 21:03:40 -_- 21:03:53 at least the package does 21:04:00 And? :p 21:04:20 Vorpal: icedtea is an alternative jvm for openjdk 21:04:21 so. 21:04:24 elliott, that means it will use openjdk, which doesn't work 21:04:26 * elliott icedtea6-plugin 21:04:35 Vorpal: Well, that's all icedtea works with... 21:04:38 Vorpal: Try icedtea6-plugin. 21:04:43 elliott, I *tried* that 21:04:46 Oh. 21:04:49 * elliott tries it 21:05:07 Vorpal: Okay, yes, that doesn't work. 21:05:20 Vorpal: What about the gcj jre? :p 21:05:29 Which I doubt has a plugin. 21:05:31 elliott, sun-java packages are in the partner repo on lucid. But not sun-java6-plugin 21:05:40 Vorpal: probably one of them includes -plugin 21:05:43 worth a try 21:06:00 wait, I did a second u in aptitude and now it is there 21:06:00 wtf 21:06:33 makes no sense 21:08:32 Bet it's less choppy in Chrome. 21:08:35 The following NEW packages will be installed: 21:08:36 chromium-browser chromium-browser-inspector{a} libv8-2.2.24{a} 21:15:41 pikhq_: HEY 21:15:43 pikhq_: HEY PIKHQ 21:15:49 pikhq_: GO LOOK AT ECONOMIST.COM 21:15:57 (Namely the doctype and MIME type) 21:18:39 * pikhq_ grabs a nuke 21:24:15 Care to explain? 21:24:41 text/javascript? 21:25:20 Anyway, need to restart X server. 21:25:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:26:18 pikhq_: Kinda makes me look like small potatoes, DUNNIT 21:26:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:29:53 Phantom_Hoover: text/html for XHTML. 21:30:03 Phantom_Hoover: This is broken and people should make it stop. 21:31:02 -!- Zuu_ has changed nick to Zuu. 21:31:19 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:32:00 pikhq_: Note: It's legal XHTML. 21:32:04 Just not recommended. 21:32:10 So you're actually saying "Work around browser bugs!". 21:32:14 Not "follow the spec". 21:32:22 (Okay, not legal XHTML 1.1. But nobody uses that.) 21:33:05 elliott: It's legal XHTML, but it has a lot of brokenness. 21:33:20 elliott: Mostly coming from how even XHTML-supporting browsers will use their HTML parsers on it. 21:33:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 21:33:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:33:49 elliott: And so there's a *lot* of invalid XHTML with an XHTML DTD and HTML doctype floating around. 21:33:52 pikhq_: So your "graar things that are technically incorrect" argument LOSES because it's perfectly valid. 21:34:37 elliott: Yes, it's valid, but broken. 21:35:01 elliott: Because it gets treated as HTML, and HTML parsers allow for a lot of broken shit. 21:35:31 elliott: Whereas an XHTML parser would just say "fuck you" at the first sign of being non-well-formed, and so people wouldn't actually put out broken "XHTML". 21:35:40 elliott: Whereas an XHTML parser would just say "fuck you" at the first sign of being non-well-formed, and so people wouldn't actually put out broken "XHTML". 21:35:47 Thus breaking Postel's Law, one of the most important laws of the internet. 21:35:50 -!- sftp has joined. 21:36:25 elliott: Also, it's invalid XHTML 5. :) 21:36:34 Thus breaking Postel's Law, one of the most important laws of the internet. 21:36:36 elliott: Whereas an XHTML parser would just say "fuck you" at the first sign of being non-well-formed, and so people wouldn't actually put out broken "XHTML". 21:36:37 this 21:36:38 is not an advantage 21:37:43 elliott: Being leniant in what you accept has caused a *lot* of fucking problems on the Web. It's taking Postel's Law to Postel's Braindamage. 21:37:48 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 21:37:55 pikhq: No, it's literally Postel's Law. 21:37:58 http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/01/08/postels-law 21:37:58 http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/01/14/thought_experiment 21:38:02 The standard links I give to everyone about this. 21:38:10 Read these, read all of these, and then don't stop until you have finished reading all of these two. 21:40:54 elliott, so did you buy minecraft or? 21:41:03 Vorpal: oh yeah i buy things immediately. 21:41:08 elliott: Problem: What people actually do is "if it's accepted by $USERAGENT, that's conservative enough." What I want is for web browsers to kick authors in the balls for that. 21:41:12 Vorpal: i'm still trying to figure out if the sound thing would be easily fixable 21:41:24 pikhq: Hi, I see you didn't read both of those links. 21:41:29 Please read both of those links. Thank you. 21:41:42 elliott, in minecraft? it works fine on this old x86-32 dell laptop with a pentium M! 21:41:50 elliott, in the classic applet thingy 21:41:51 Vorpal: linux sound sucks ass 21:41:55 it's stuttery here 21:42:02 elliott, ubuntu, pulseaudio alsa 21:42:09 Vorpal: I don't care. 21:42:10 pentium M 21:42:15 elliott, not even intel audio 21:42:19 Intel audio here. 21:42:19 some weird ac97 thingy 21:42:23 That is the problem. 21:42:31 pikhq: Also, perhaps meditate on this statement: "Just because I am a zealot, this does not mean that my zealotry should dictate how systems should operate, rather than far more important concerns." 21:42:42 elliott, hm sound in applets work fine on my thinkpad with intel hd audio 21:42:50 elliott, wait, the dell is intel. Just not intel hd 21:42:57 Intel HDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD here 21:43:15 Definition SO HIGH that LINUX HATES YOU 21:43:20 elliott: From those links, I get one thing: don't fucking use XHTML at all, because a conforming implementation should kick you in the balls if you fuck it up at all. 21:43:33 elliott: And you don't want to be kicked in the balls now do you. 21:43:40 pikhq: Okay, so basically, removing the / before > makes Postel's Law okay again. 21:43:47 pikhq: Even though there is no reason XML should behave differently to everything else. 21:43:52 pikhq: Even though the only person who wanted it to was Tim Bray. 21:44:06 Who unilaterally decided to break Postel's Law for no reason other than he wanted to, despite many complaints, in the formative days of XML. 21:44:21 elliott: Well, I'm in favor of deleting XML entirely, so... 21:44:22 And yet -- if you remove that / before that > -- suddenly, your zealotry disappears and it's okay again. 21:44:25 For no reason at all. 21:44:29 elliott, well, I just installed sun vm on my thinkpad with intel hd, no stuttering 21:44:41 usual sound quality for the built in speakers 21:45:01 elliott: See, here's the thing. XML is *supposed* to "always be entirely well formed". If you're unwilling to put up with that, fucking stop with the XML. 21:45:08 pikhq: By the way, did I mention? Want SVG in HTML? 21:45:13 pikhq: You have to use XHTML. 21:45:13 elliott: Or: TLDR; fucking stop with the XML. 21:45:16 elliott: HTML 5. 21:45:20 pikhq: lolno 21:45:25 elliott: Lolyes. 21:45:31 http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.html 21:45:32 http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.xhtml 21:45:35 note how only the latter works 21:45:50 note: SECOND ONE SERVED AS TEXT/HTML OH EM GEE CLOUDS RAIN DOWN FROM THE SKY 21:46:17 elliott: Invalid XHTML5 hooray. 21:46:26 elliott: He should be conservative in what he sends. 21:46:37 pikhq: Care to give me a variation on the first file that works? 21:46:42 Protip: you can't because only XHTML5 can do that. 21:47:08 elliott: HTML 5 has it in the spec. 21:47:13 elliott: Not my fault useragents don't have it. 21:47:18 pikhq: Oh, and XHTML has text/html in the spec too. 21:47:23 Yet you advocate working around browsers there. 21:47:32 WHAT IS THIS? The zealot is hypocritical? 21:47:34 No, never, surely not ... 21:47:36 elliott: XHTML 5 explicitly has it not in the spec. 21:47:57 pikhq: Congratulations, you changed the topic to avoid answering my question. 21:48:55 "This only works in XHTML 5." "Well, it's in the spec. It's the browser's problem." "But you strongly advocate not sending XHTML 1 as text/html, even though this is in the XHTML 1 spec, and it is just a browser workaround." "[CHANGE TOPIC TO SERVING HTML AS TEXT/HTML AND REFERENCE XHTML5 EVEN THOUGH THAT HAS NO RELEVANCE HERE]" 21:49:22 -!- augur has joined. 21:49:36 Fight! Fight! Fight! 21:49:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover__. 21:50:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover__ has changed nick to ________________. 21:50:13 Ah, yes: "[implication that this is a meaningless flamewar]", the most effective way to make sure that it is impossible to claim anyone is right. 21:50:22 elliott: Okay. The problem is not in sending 100% valid XHTML 1 as text/html, the problem is that most people send out somewhat broken HTML with an XHTML DTD as text/html. 21:50:26 -!- ________________ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 21:50:30 pikhq: Stop changing the subject. 21:50:39 elliott, I'm not saying it's a flame war. It is a fight. 21:50:43 elliott: Uh, from what?O 21:50:57 elliott: Serving XHTML as text/html to serving XHTML as text/html? 21:50:57 Phantom_Hoover: It is an argument. There is a difference. 21:51:20 A BORING difference! 21:51:22 pikhq: SUBJECT 1: "SVG embedding only works in XHTML 5, not HTML 5." SUBJECT 2: "XHTML as text/html". 21:51:26 It's an intellectual fight¬! 21:51:27 *! 21:52:03 elliott: Okay, subject 1. It *should* work in HTML 5. That it does not is a bug in the browsers. 21:52:07 pikhq: You decided to disregard Subject 1 by replying that it is the browser's fault. I replied pointing out the inconsistency; as for subject 2, even with Gregor, who had perfectly valid XHTML served as text/html, you yelled at him to change the Content-Type. This is a workaround for a browser bug. But so is using XHTML 5 to embed SVG! 21:52:17 So in Subject 1, you advocate not working around browsers. 21:52:23 But in Subject 2, you VEHEMENTLY argue for working around browsers. 21:52:30 You are, therefore, a zealot and a hypocrite. 21:53:09 A zealohypocrite. 21:53:21 elliott: By the way, nice job on showing me the *first* case of actually *gaining* something by sending XHTML as text/html.\ 21:53:45 elliott: Seriously, I had no clue that there was any advantage at *all* over just using HTML. 21:53:58 This is why http://intertwingly.net/ is XHTML 5. 21:54:18 elliott: Though in this case it's minor, because the only useragent without SVG support is also the only useragent without XHTML support. 21:54:41 pikhq: ...so? The point is that XHTML 5 *does* have advantages over HTML 5, in practical use. 21:54:48 elliott: Such as? 21:54:52 SVG embedding. 21:54:58 http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.html does not work. 21:55:01 http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.xhtml works. 21:55:29 elliott: And the only user agent that wouldn't handle compliant XHTML 5 doesn't support the SVG embedding anyways. 21:55:48 ...and? 21:56:02 *The point is that your complete dismissal of XML is wrong because XHTML 5 has an advantage over HTML 5.* 21:56:09 *I am not talking about Content-Types for once, for fuck's sake* 21:56:10 ... So it'll be broken even if you are liberal in what you send? 21:56:39 ...?????????? 21:56:52 FORGET CONTENT-TYPES EXIST FOR A MOMENT (try saving these files to your computer first) 21:57:05 http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.html is HTML 5, because it has no xmlns attribute in the html tag. 21:57:10 http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.xhtml is XHTML 5, because it does. 21:57:17 SVG embedding only works in the latter, in modern implementations. 21:57:18 XHTML 5 with the text/html doctype is invalid. You need to not be conservative in what you send in order to do that. 21:57:27 I HATE YOU IT IS NOT ABOUT CONTENT-TYPE 21:57:37 SAVE THE FILES TO YOUR COMPUTER BEFORE THINKING ABOUT THIS 21:57:40 (THUS THERE ARE NO CONTENT-TYPES) 21:58:14 Okay, so there are a lot of user-agents that fail at embedded SVG. Where are you going with this? 21:58:41 they don't fail at it when it's xhtml 5 21:58:42 jesus 21:58:47 i'm saying that xhtml 5 has a reason to exist over html 5 21:58:57 in reply to you saying that xml should just be forgotten about 21:59:20 elliott: That reason being that browsers are buggy? 21:59:43 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:59:53 elliott: Seriously, SVG embedding *should* work 100% fine in HTML 5, but browsers have apparently not implemented it. 21:59:54 Sure. 22:00:04 Same with XHTML as application/xml+xhtml being preferable to text/html./ 22:00:10 It is the browser's fault but that does not make it irrelevant. 22:00:29 Also, ironically, this works even when the XHTML 5 is transmitted as text/html, thus proving that browsers do *not* automatically treat everything sent as text/html as pure HTML. 22:00:35 In this case, they treat it as XHTML 5. 22:00:54 Which is astounding. When they're allowed to they don't and when they're not allowed to they do. 22:01:21 MUAHAHAHAHA 22:01:25 You lose every argument FOREVER. 22:01:36 Though actually... 22:01:37 pikhq: I think you will find that the HTML 5 parsing spec allows them to do it. 22:01:45 Because it is, by definition, extremely liberal in what it accepts. 22:01:54 Being that it accepts every byte string. 22:02:12 The behavior they're showing for the XHTML 5 *is* in fact exactly how it should work if interpreted as invalid HTML 5. 22:02:28 They just don't handle the case of valid HTML 5. That's... Amazingly stupid. :P 22:06:51 -!- Erofa has joined. 22:07:40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIz3g7pdHDM 22:08:27 *Ah*. 22:08:34 -!- Erofa has left (?). 22:09:03 elliott: The HTML 5 with SVG embedded doesn't work in the version of Chrome that Debian ships with right now. 22:09:17 elliott: And it requires manual enabling for Firefox. 22:09:27 elliott: So, the way to get it to work: use a newer browser. 22:10:12 -!- Erofa has joined. 22:10:24 Can't tell you why it works using the HTML parser on XHTML though. Seriously, I got nothing. 22:10:36 -!- Erofa has left (?). 22:10:43 (Hmm. Maybe they try to parse it as XHTML then fail to the HTML parser?) 22:10:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:16:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:19:01 Being that it accepts every byte string <--- even embedded NUL? even 9-bit bytes with the high bit set? 22:19:36 ais523: There's no such thing as a 9-bit byte. 22:19:50 ais523: But yes, U+0 is accepted by the parser. 22:21:16 pikhq: there is a 9-bit byte, see, for example, the C standard, which allows arbitrary bytewidths >= 8 22:21:27 and some systems actually use 9-bit bytes 22:21:29 ais523: Not on the Internet. 22:21:34 OTOH, networks transmit in octets, so you'd have to be loading a local file 22:23:41 back 22:26:03 * ais523 still puzzles about that while !times thing 22:26:11 that is such a great bug, I want to know what caused it 22:26:42 What it did when you triggered that bug? 22:27:28 Ilari: it was a bug report by someone else, in a closed-source MMO that has since been fixed 22:27:35 it's just the ridiculousness of the bug that drove my curiosity 22:27:39 let me try to find what I wrote 22:28:33 "sub f while !times 2 use spices endwhile endsub while !times 4 call f endwhile", "while !times 2 while !times 2 use spices endwhile endwhile", "while !times 2 while !times 4 use spices endwhile endwhile", "while !times 4 while !times 2 use spices endwhile endwhile" use spices 4, 3, 19, 5 times respectively 22:28:44 that's the only info I had, but it's crazy enough to wonder what on earth is going on 22:29:16 as a reference point, "while !times 5 use spices endwhile" would use spices 5 times; that's the intended use 22:29:39 No information what that piece of code actually did in buggy implementations? 22:30:14 Ilari: hmm? 22:30:35 Ilari: the bug was related to the nesting of while 22:30:45 and the implementation of times 22:31:25 Ah, I think I understand what the bug actually is, but I haven't thought what could cause it. 22:31:38 hmm, go for it, maybe someone else can take it back a level 22:32:31 elliott: Y'know what? Fuck HTML. We should go back to Gopher. 22:34:30 You know what's absurdly hard? 22:34:39 Retrieving my Evolution setup. 22:34:54 Moving .evolution across did nothing, 22:37:31 I think it referes how many times spices are used if you run those code snppets. Looks like nested loops run totally wrong number of times... 22:39:37 And might not be simple bug, as it interacts with subroutine calls at well (both first and fourth should use the same amount, but they don't). 22:59:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:07:09 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:07:47 I was about to comment on something weird, then I realized I divided by 0. 23:07:51 I want to comment anyway. 23:08:22 Zuh? 23:09:25 ∫0dx = 0∫dx = 0(x + C) = 0.. where'd the C go 23:09:50 It's kind of clear that the division by 0 makes it screwy.. but not in a way that explains to me how the C disappeared 23:09:58 There's no issue for any non-0 constant obviously 23:10:29 * Sgeo .. kind of imagines that it's a C that * 0 can be nonzero.. similar to how non-0 multipliers do it 23:10:38 And that this somehow came about due to the division by 0 23:14:35 Sgeo, well, intuitively, the integral of 0 dx is a constant. 23:15:12 Hence me asking where the C went 23:15:15 elliott, FWIW, someone has posted a reversible life rule to the rule table repository. 23:15:48 I'm investigating. 23:16:55 Turns out I don't know how to compile Golly on Debian. 23:17:09 -!- iGO has joined. 23:17:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: No route to host). 23:18:46 * Phantom_Hoover installs more packages. 23:20:04 I mean, clearly, for any non 0 n, ∫n dx = n∫dx = n(x+C) = nx + nC and nC is still just a constant 23:20:10 Which we may as well call C 23:20:19 Here we go. 23:20:20 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:20:25 * Phantom_Hoover investigates. 23:20:40 wb pikhq 23:24:27 mkdir is failing; should I panic? 23:25:51 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:28:53 Failing with what error? 23:30:40 "mkdir: error while loading shared libraries: libselinux.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory" 23:30:49 No, reinstalling libselinux1 does not help. 23:31:56 -!- cheater99 has joined. 23:35:43 -!- sftp has joined. 23:36:06 Like most of my problems, it was my own fault. 23:36:23 -!- cheater00 has joined. 23:36:48 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:40:58 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:43:15 Note to self: Don't bother attempting to implement Factor in Second Life 23:44:47 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:51:21 http://www.w3.org/Provider/ServerWriter.html last modified 1995 23:51:25 Here is a run-through of what is needed to make a www server , with examples from a suggested server for the HEPDATA base of Mike Whalley . See also etiquette . 23:52:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:55:16 -!- cheater00 has joined. 2010-11-05: 00:01:04 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:21:45 " elliott, FWIW, someone has posted a reversible life rule to the rule table repository." <<< two-dimensional reversible CA? how is that interesting 00:22:16 or do i misinterpret life rule 00:38:39 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:38:52 -!- elliott has joined. 00:40:32 oklopol: you don't misinterpret, presumably phanty means one that has close-to-life behaviour or ... something 00:40:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:40:42 or maybe one that uses colours to simulate reversibility on "regular" life or something 00:43:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 00:44:43 hmm, i feel like i should know something about when that's possible 00:48:59 http://notalwaysright.com/ah-fathers-part-4/8117 00:52:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiNT 01:06:21 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:12:05 -!- jcp has joined. 01:40:03 -!- iGO has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:42:16 #tweetyour16yearoldself Make plans for college. Learn to drive. Don't rely on dad's planning for either. 01:45:41 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 02:18:01 -!- comex has joined. 02:18:09 -!- comex has quit (Excess Flood). 02:18:38 Sgeo: Goooo me! 02:18:45 Drivers license: 16 02:18:50 Plans for college: Great success 02:19:10 #tweetyour16yearoldself YOU'RE AWESOME! KEEP DOIN' WHAT YOU DO 02:19:15 -!- comex has joined. 02:21:12 I still haven't learned to drive 02:47:30 night 02:48:08 wait 02:48:18 Drivers license: 16 <-- I read that as "Driver licenses" XD 02:49:00 Sgeo, learning to drive isn't hard when you get the knack of it ;) 02:49:20 err get the hang of it 02:49:30 (I mixed up two idioms didn't I?) 02:49:38 bth are valid 02:49:46 ah 02:49:55 elliott, any news wrt. minecraft? 02:50:16 prolly buying tonight 02:50:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:51:10 elliott, iirc it was all but one file in ~/.minecraft that had to be copied. The one file that shouldn't be copied had the saved username/passwd. 02:52:21 elliott, also building aqueducts and bridges in classic is fun 02:52:41 elliott, also there is a max altitude in classic at least 02:52:51 I arranged for a jump from top to bottom 02:53:04 didn't last nearly long enough 02:54:22 elliott, have fun, need to sleep now → 02:57:06 Vorpal: "knack of it" seems a tiny bit archaic, but it's entirely valid. 03:10:02 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/electrical-brain-zap-boosts-maths-ability-2125389.html I was thinking how I'd like that, but then started thinking that my problem is ignorance, not lack of ability 03:29:17 Haha... 'Maternal Intake of "Saturated Fat" Causes Liver Disease -- You Know, the Unsaturated Kind of Saturated Fat'. 03:29:42 Oh, I didn't know that unsaturated saturated fat exists... :-) 03:33:35 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:35:10 back 03:41:07 Oh, I think I know. Trans fats are said to be equivalent to saturated fat, but aren't saturated, so I think unsaturated saturated fats really means trans fats. :-> 03:42:51 -!- Sasha has left (?). 03:43:01 -!- You has joined. 03:43:06 * You have been disconnected from the server. Please reconnect. 03:43:26 -!- You has changed nick to Guest50789. 03:43:32 Hah. 03:43:38 -!- Guest50789 has changed nick to Sasha. 03:44:10 sad thing is 03:44:16 that worked in another channel 03:45:49 worked so well 03:47:10 Teleanalysis has reached its bottom. If A is uncorrelated with B and B is correlated with C, A causes C (classic teleanalysis is if A is correlated with B and B is corrlated with C, then A causes C). 03:47:43 Sasha: it's best if you idle for a while 03:47:49 if you do it right then, it's obvious 03:48:01 Ilari: Trans fats are not cis fats 03:48:06 coppro: I did it right then 03:48:18 and there's no such thing as an unsaturated saturated fat 03:48:23 and there's no such thing as an unsaturated saturated fat 03:48:24 Well, all trans fats are unsaturated. :-) 03:48:25 I think Ilari knows that. 03:48:37 Sasha: no, I mean you join as You, then you wait for a long while, /then/ you inform people of their disconnection 03:48:44 coppro: Heh 03:48:53 but on the other channel, I did it as soon as I entered 03:49:03 trolled 5 or 6 people 5 or 6 times 03:49:07 all noobs to IRC 03:49:11 Oh, and there are also fats that have both cis and trans double bond (CLA). 03:51:06 Quite a bit of different animals than techno fats: IIRC, in one study, for normal (techno) trans fats, ratio of $SOMETHING_BAD between highest and lowest quitiles was 5, whereas it was 0.5 for CLA... 03:53:04 IIRC, all studies of milkfat involving real markers (and not just notoriously unreliable dietary questionaries) say milk fat is healthy. 03:53:48 Milk is tasty 03:54:07 Especially whole milk... :-) 03:55:14 Oh, and milk fat is also good for dissolving various useful compounds out of vegetables... :-) 03:57:49 Dietary questionaries are unreliable for three reasons: 1) They don't capture the diet well, 2) People have poor memory about what they have eaten (even recently), 3) Intentional distortion. 03:59:38 It could be fun to first do a log of everything eaten for a week, then fill dietary questionare with that log as reference and then see the garbage that results... 04:00:43 I could probably do such a log from memory 04:00:53 My diet doesn't vary as much as it possibly should 04:02:02 I can't think of any justification for changing a diet day-to-day from a health point of view. 04:02:10 Chocolate cheerios for breakfast sometimes, sometimes potato chips. Chicken sandwich with lettice and onions. Coca-Cola (not Diet). ~1 box of Pasta with Parmesan Cheese 04:02:11 If it's nutritious one twenty-four hour period it's nutritious the next... 04:02:35 Ugh... 04:02:47 What if one 24 hour period provides only some nutrients, but the next it's varied up, providing the rest? 04:02:58 lawl @ Ugh... 04:03:21 Sgeo: You are making Ilari cringe. 04:03:35 Oh, the sandwich is only on school days, Monday-Thursday 04:03:50 That works... Usual nutrion misinformation claims that one must get water-soluble vitamins every day. Defiency symptoms with those take at least weeks to appear... 04:04:09 pikhq: I even *felt* the cringe over IRC. 04:04:21 It sounded like: "*cringe*". 04:04:21 ... Waitwaitwait. That's what you eat *each and every day*? 04:04:26 *cringe* 04:04:43 -!- elliott has set topic: oerjan missing | *cringe* record: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 04:04:50 Oh, the potato chips are also only on school days. Often, on those days, they're instead of the cheerios 04:05:00 Soda is also only on school days 04:05:36 Chips for breakfast. That's... Urgh. 04:06:14 Oh, and they conviently don't mention that fat-soluble vitamins (including the extremely important vitamin D) *require* fat to be absorbed. 04:06:47 I like how Debian's xorg no longer ships with twm. 04:06:49 THE HERETICS! 04:06:59 * elliott sudo aptitude install twm 04:07:01 That's better! 04:07:28 elliott: Modular X.org... 04:07:40 pikhq: Is evil and lacks twm purity. 04:07:44 Next sentence? 04:07:47 Potato chips wouldn't be so bad (not that those would be good even then) if those used proper fats for cooking (instead of kinds of fats that are completely unsuitable for cooking). 04:07:55 elliott: Doesn't have Twm by default. 04:07:59 pikhq: Is evil and lacks twm purity. 04:08:12 Ilari: Such fats being? 04:08:14 pikhq: I mean, twm is modern! It supports the Debian menu! 04:08:29 elliott: Would it make you feel better to know that Gentoo's X.org meta package does include Twm? 04:08:36 pikhq: No, because that's Gentoo. 04:08:42 (because that meta package is "the entirety of X") 04:08:53 Coconut oil, palm oil, lard, ghee, tallow, ... Pick a favorite... 04:09:25 Whichever will cause me to gain weight without causing cardiac issues 04:09:27 Hmm. I'd imagine ghee would give a quite interesting flavor to chips. Now I'm curious. 04:09:54 Some decades ago (before some front groups changed that), McDonalds used IIRC tallow for frying french fries... 04:10:18 Because tallow makes them more delicious. 04:10:30 In fact, yes. 04:10:40 oclock(1) best program ever 04:10:51 no, vineagar makes them more delicious 04:11:00 (1) Misspelling! 04:11:05 Making ghee from butter is a simple process... 04:11:08 (2) "Let's just get rid of the fat and use vinegar instead." 04:11:22 lol 04:11:38 Hmm... Wonder what would be health effects of high amounts of organic acids... 04:12:03 better than high amounts of HF 04:12:09 HF? 04:12:12 Ah yeah. 04:12:25 HF scares me. 04:12:31 HF? 04:12:37 it's a chemical formula 04:12:40 for a surprisingly weak acid 04:12:50 I thought it was something more relevant :P 04:13:22 it is, however, a powerful contact poison 04:13:29 coppro: "weak acid" is a classification, not an indicator of corrosiveness. 04:13:34 pikhq: I just got a wonderful, wonderful idea. By the last NeXTSTEP release in 1995, it noy only ran on the 68k, but also SPARC, HP PA-RISC, and... x86. 04:13:36 (not as bad as dimethylmercury though. that shit is fucking scary) 04:13:40 pikhq: What I'm saying is: Virtual machine. 04:13:48 At least it isn't ClF3 (that thing ignites sand on contact, eats through asbestos bricks, ...) 04:13:51 coppro: It's actually highly corrosive. 04:14:00 pikhq: yeah, that's true 04:14:12 but compared to other hydrohalogenic acids, it's a weakling 04:14:12 Ignites sand on contact -- I am having trouble thinking of a more awesome substance. 04:14:46 pikhq: I may have just found an x86 NextStep ISO. Cough. 04:14:55 elliott: HF is toxic on contact. 04:15:02 a drop of dimethylmercury on a latex glove is lethal 04:15:05 a /dropd/ 04:15:06 *drop 04:15:11 on a /glove/ 04:15:24 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:15:25 I drink dimethylmercury for breakfast. 04:15:38 bcuz im fuckin awsum 04:15:55 kinky 04:15:56 * Sgeo starts planning elliott's funeral. 04:16:02 holy crap, ClF3 is powerful 04:16:08 "no ignition delay has ever been recorded" 04:16:09 elliott: It doesn't burn you right away. It instead stops your heart. 04:16:11 ClF3 is just my lunch. 04:16:22 CIF3 scares me even more. 04:16:55 "It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water — with which it reacts explosively" 04:17:01 Oh, there's also FOOF. Explodes on contact with ice at -170 degC. 04:17:08 pikhq: Did You Know? There's aptitude-gtk. 04:17:44 pikhq: can't find much on CIF3 04:17:55 actually, I don't even know if that compound could exist 04:18:08 pikhq: The problem is, it's no good. :) 04:18:21 coppro: Fluorine makes a lot of unusual compounds. 04:18:34 coppro: What with being the most reactive element. 04:18:44 yeah 04:18:50 XeF8 is my favorite 04:18:54 Orbitals of Cl can hybrize, that's why it can form more than one bond. 04:19:05 "Hydrogen fluoride is generated upon combustion of many fluorine-containing compounds such as products containing Viton and polytetrafluoroethylene (Teflon) parts. Hydrogen fluoride converts immediately to hydrofluoric acid upon contact with liquid water." 04:19:11 err, XeF4 04:19:13 That's scary 04:19:25 Xeon? 04:19:30 Yup. 04:19:32 xenon 04:19:54 Yes, fluorine reacts with nobel gasses. 04:19:58 Isn't that a noble gas? 04:19:58 Noble. 04:19:59 Sgeo: all hydrogen halides dissolve pretty much instantly 04:20:01 yes 04:20:02 Wait what? 04:20:18 251 kJ/mol formation energy, too 04:20:26 Yes, fluorine reacts with nobel gasses. 04:20:27 W 04:20:27 T 04:20:29 F 04:20:36 It reacts with gases that have Nobel Prizes. 04:20:55 Sgeo: the heavier noble gases are not as stable as you might think 04:20:58 they are still highly stable 04:21:00 Sir James Dewar 04:21:03 Is a better man than you are 04:21:05 None of you asses 04:21:05 but compounds can be made with them 04:21:06 Sgeo: So does water. 04:21:08 Can liquefy gases. 04:21:23 * Sgeo starts frothing at the mouth 04:21:25 *are. 04:21:31 Sgeo: Xe·6H2O is a real compound. 04:21:44 Are you _trying_ to kill me? 04:21:47 pikhq: uh, isn't that just a hydrated solid? 04:22:27 coppro: ? 04:22:46 There's a Wikipedia page for Xenon compounds 04:22:46 pikhq: that looks like a hydrated solid 04:22:51 coppro: Ah. 04:22:54 and so not an actual compound as such 04:22:56 Oh, for Noble gas compounds 04:23:08 * Sgeo is still WTFing 04:23:18 I quite like the fullerene compounds. 04:23:29 I like how I didn't clarify at all, and you said 'ah' 04:23:29 It's a fullerene with a noble gas atom inside! 04:23:30 :D 04:23:41 :D 04:23:46 coppro: "Ah, you won't clarify". 04:23:51 I hope the new quantum-nano building at my school is cool 04:24:06 oh right, XeF8 is an ion 04:24:15 (with charge of -2) 04:24:17 Quantum nano-building. 04:24:25 It's a nano-scale building. 04:24:38 Fluorine compounds tend to be really nasty for some reason... Especially if the fluorine is attached something quite electronegative... 04:24:55 because fluorine is like 'whee let's react with stuff' 04:25:08 It's the whore of the periodic table. 04:25:20 (corollory: fluorine is a whore) 04:25:24 dgoddamit lag 04:26:01 also I spelled corollary wrong 04:26:33 Load of nitrogen atoms in molecule just likes to explode. Fluorine atoms in molecule actually tend to react with lots of stuff. 04:27:08 Oh, N3F... Sounds like a fun compound... 04:30:10 Oh, there's also CN4... 04:32:32 All I know is that CN is cyanide (ion?) 04:33:56 coppro: "d[007F]goddamit" 04:34:08 Yeah. CN4 has CN- attached to N3+... 04:34:15 also *corollary 04:35:15 Isn't 7F Backspace or del or something? 04:35:35 (YAY FOR RECOGNIZING THAT 8 IS HALF OF 10) 04:36:03 IN HEX IT IS 04:37:08 7+9 = 3 in base fuck you 04:40:47 In base 12 with a zero-width space as a ... wait no. 04:41:27 7f? no, backspace is 8 04:42:09 i guess 7f counts as del however; i thought all the control chars were < 32 04:42:14 guess you learn something new every day 04:42:55 ah 04:42:56 7F = ^? 04:43:00 no 04:43:01 = Delete 04:43:04 yes 04:43:05 oh 04:43:09 i thought you were asking a question 04:43:11 ah 04:43:12 heh, no 04:43:14 like "7F = ^"? 04:43:18 but anyway 04:43:23 yeah, it obliterates anything on paper tape 04:43:27 that is the reasoning apparently 04:43:34 in 7-bit ascii at least 04:43:53 * Sgeo should relearn COBOL 04:47:31 ... *Relearn*? 04:47:36 You mean you learned it once? 04:47:43 Well, I read a book on it once 04:48:00 I guess that's not the same as learning 04:48:18 -!- augur has joined. 04:52:41 Looking at practices of hog/cattle farmers when raising animals for food is rather instructive... You don't want to feed those animals saturated fat... 04:53:58 (and the reason why is exactly one reason why you should be eating saturated fat). 04:58:19 ? 04:59:59 New xkcd in 1 min 05:00:42 -!- Sasha has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:02:01 New xkcd in 1 min 05:02:03 Whoops nobody cares 05:02:20 (I secretly wanted to see how elliott would react) 05:03:01 Why does it start sloping downwards/ 05:03:07 What? 05:03:36 Also, WTF at the title 05:03:43 pikhq: Have I mentioned recently that debian-installer is awesome? 05:04:12 Why does it start sloping downwards/ 05:04:19 Because... you spend all your time spinning around? 05:04:28 It's xkcd. It's a steaming pile of shit. You know this. 05:04:58 elliott: You may. 05:05:39 pikhq: It is! Although the expert mode has some *really weird* parts. Like: You can disable shadow passwords. Why? But then, on the same screen, you can use sudo instead of a root account. Why isn't this in the regular install? That's useful. 05:05:56 pikhq: On the other hand... it can set up encrypted LVM with a few clicks. wtfawesome 05:07:04 Heheh. 05:07:37 pikhq: Still... what kind of monster puts an utterly useless option (disable shadow passwords) on the same page as a very useful one (use sudo instead of root), and then hides that screen in the non-tedious^Wexpert installer? 05:07:43 (Non-expert, that is.) 05:07:54 elliott, I meant when the friction is higher 05:08:13 Sgeo: Because you can't move your chair about. 05:08:23 It's xkcd, it sucks, it makes no fucking sense! YOU KNOW THIS! 05:10:16 "Something tragic has happened in the Author’s life, and we feel that pointing out his love-life’s shortcomings or his relentless obsession with childhood would not be appropriate at this time." --xkcd explained 05:10:54 relentless obsession with childhood? 05:10:54 score 05:11:38 ("An updated version of the Map of Online Communities - a visualization of the size and relationships between various web communities. 05:11:39 This otherwise useless data is visualized as a map for a good reason. It is meant to convince those that spend a majority of their lives online that the communities they belong to actually matter, like actual geographic locations. It is meant to give meaning to otherwise meaningless lives.") 05:11:42 <3 xkcd explained 05:11:45 It's like xkcdsucks but doesn't suck! 05:12:09 ("The hatted man then walks in and replaces “hammer” and “something it is not suited for” in the aforementioned phrase with other words that the Author deemed more wacky and humorous. Another example of this could be: “when all you have is a ball-point pen, everything starts to look like a stick figure.”") 05:12:20 elliott: Didn't the updated version of that actually show that it was a very very tiny inset of the map of Real Life? 05:12:28 Thus making the point even more clear? 05:12:37 pikhq: Not that I am aware of. 05:12:46 pikhq: Also, that quote was from xkcd explained, not Randall. 05:12:55 RANDALL WOULD NEVER STATE SOMETHING SO OFFENSIVE TO NETIZENS 05:13:20 He has in #xkcd sometimes. I wonder why the hell he keeps the comic up, actually. 05:13:36 pikhq: The comic being that particular one or xkcd itself? 05:13:40 If the latter, I agree. :P 05:13:44 ("The Author, much like Stephen Hawking, creates comics such as these as a cry for help. A cry that will, sadly, never be heard over the cackling laughter of his devoted fans.") 05:13:45 (I could go on) 05:14:11 elliott: xkcd itself. 05:14:29 pikhq: money + some horribly misguided belief that it's funny and/or emotional 05:14:46 elliott: I suspect money's the larger factor at this point. 05:15:03 Franchise zombie! 05:15:06 pikhq: no, he could easily churn out basically decent comics that appeal to the target audience on his schedule 05:15:17 pikhq: but he keeps trying to be different and even his fans sometimes go "wat" on the forums 05:15:25 Yeah, but churning out shit is easier. 05:15:41 pikhq: but he doesn't, he churns out uniquely demented shit 05:15:51 comics he'd have to think about quite a lot just to fuck them up so effectively 05:16:07 Maybe he's just the world's greatest troll. 05:16:35 Occam's Razor says he's just sad. :P 05:23:03 Online Communities 2 has the entire map being a small portion of Spoken Language 05:23:45 Oh, indeed. It is sad that you know that. 05:24:05 elliott, I am capable of looking at the archives and checking 05:24:09 Which is, in fact, what I did. 05:24:18 It is sad that you checked 05:30:13 Does anyone know of any practical reversible debuggers, i.e. program can be run backwards as well as forwards? 05:30:21 I know of a Java one. 05:30:34 http://urdb.sourceforge.net/ This looks a bit fragile. 05:35:38 An exercise in coherency: 05:35:39 ... 05:35:39 "AFAIK dwarf is format for executables, there are few formats as you know (Window's exe as opposed to linux's ... what's his name) Dwarf is used in linux, I'm guessing that when you build an app in debug mode the compiler injects debug data to the dwarf in order to debug (I'm guessing break points and etc). If Go, a high level script language is asking to enter here needs of debugging to the way you build an executable it means google is doing so 05:35:40 mething bigger with go. (probably for android)." 05:35:40 gdb 05:35:52 pikhq: Uhh, gdb is not reversible. 05:36:10 elliott: Holy fuck. 05:36:18 Gregor: What? 05:36:20 elliott: Whoever wrote that needs to be punched in the face. 05:36:21 Gregor: At my quote? 05:36:21 elliott: A lot. 05:36:22 Yeah. 05:36:23 elliott: They added it in version 7. I do not know how to use it. 05:36:37 Gregor: The line immediately before it: "Ok... I think I get it... the Google is trying to rape a dwarf? :)" 05:36:38 Gregor: Then that spiel. 05:36:43 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/e1c6e/go_issued_for_inclusion_in_forthcoming_dwarf_5/c14ii8l 05:36:45 Set lasers to punch. 05:36:47 *phasers 05:36:51 (Same damn thing!) 05:37:32 I'm setting fists to stun. 05:37:37 And phasers to punch. 05:39:16 Dear Facebook: Fuck you for not letting me see the message I sent with a friend request (that I withdrew, but whatever) 05:41:26 Gregor: READY FOR ANOTHER MULTI-ARCHITECTURE EMULATIONFEST???? 05:41:37 ALWAYS 05:42:21 Gregor: NeXTSTEP 3.3 was released for not only Motorola 68000 but for x86, SPARC, and HP PA-RISC. I have the x86 version and am trying to get it running in qemu. I suggest you try SPARC. 05:42:50 Uhhh, are any of these AVAILABLE? :P 05:43:00 Gregor: Well, I have the m68k/x86 version from torrentz.com. 05:43:15 Gregor: http://torrentz.com/169206b92525ec1750b19e96acd4be5f17674b0a SPARC and HP PA-RISC. 05:43:20 Gregor: "Hey, it has one seed." Good luck, bitch! 05:44:44 Gregor: (You may have better luck than I, considering this shit is talking about patching old versions of QEMU.) 05:45:10 * elliott gets qemu 0.9.0 to apply qemu-0.9.0-openstep-busmouse-2.diff 05:46:40 "About - QEMU 05:46:40 A processor emulator that is used to run an x86 Linux Kernel on x86 Linux." 05:46:41 How overly humble. 05:47:56 http://download.savannah.gnu.org/releases/qemu/ Sweet, where's the old releases. 05:48:48 https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+archive/primary/+files/qemu_0.9.0.orig.tar.gz 05:50:28 Gregor: WARNING: "gcc" looks like gcc 4.x 05:50:28 Looking for gcc 3.x 05:50:28 ./configure: 372: Syntax error: Bad fd number 05:50:41 dash incompatible + "gcc 4? wat"! 05:50:52 QEMU is known to have problems when compiled with gcc 4.x 05:50:53 8-D 05:50:53 It is recommended that you use gcc 3.x to build QEMU 05:50:53 To use this compiler anyway, configure with --disable-gcc-check 05:50:53 + 05:50:54 *no + 05:50:56 LOLZ 05:51:04 Gregor: Nope, it knows what gcc 4 is, it just doesn't trust it! 05:51:30 For 0.10 they had to rewrite much of the emulation to get it to work with GCC 4. 05:51:36 (it should now be compiler-agnostic) 05:51:43 pikhq: I should install gcc 3, huh. 05:52:28 pikhq: Is it? I thought it still depended heavily on GCC. 05:52:56 Gregor: Oh? Maybe. Probably a lot of magic still going on there. 05:53:06 Nice; OpenStep != OPENSTEP 05:53:13 OPENSTEP is (was) the official implementation of OpenStep. 05:53:38 Ahahahah. Yeah, it's now compiler agnostic. 05:54:00 What's so ahahahah about that :P 05:54:05 Deewiant sure hasn't talked in a while. 05:54:06 Thus answering the question posed by a recent article of The Daily WTF 05:54:15 pikhq: If it doesn't work with MSVC, it's not compiler-agnostic ;) 05:54:16 The Daily WTF is terrible now. 05:54:23 elliott: It has parts of TinyCC in it now. 05:54:28 Gregor: I took a shit a while ago and it didn't work with MSVC. 05:54:30 pikhq: <3 05:54:35 elliott, ? 05:54:41 What, where are the gcc 3 packages in Debian. 05:54:44 They were there a second ago. 05:55:07 ??? Seriously, I installed it just a few days ago. 05:55:32 # [2009-08-07] gcc-3.4 REMOVED from testing (Britney) 05:55:34 Well it was there later than that. 05:55:42 (Also, fuck you, Britney.) 05:56:23 * elliott installs from Lenny 05:56:24 *lenny 05:57:00 pikhq: So I guess it won't build well as a 64-bit program either, huh? :P 05:57:23 elliott: Should. 05:57:29 Good. 05:57:57 elliott: I mean, I used 0.9 on x86_64... 05:57:59 gcc-3.4 depends on cpp-3.4 (= 3.4.6-9); however: 05:58:00 Package cpp-3.4 is not installed. 05:58:01 OH NOES 05:58:58 --cc=gcc-3.4 woo 06:00:21 Oh yeah, i386-softmmu. Can there be anything better? 06:00:23 COMPILIN' 06:00:29 Gregor: So you are totally doing this for SPARC right? :P 06:01:27 Are there functions that are continuous everywhere but differentiable nowhere? What of defined anywhere but continuous nowhere? I seem to recall seeing an example of one of those. 06:03:12 elliott@dinky:~/NeXTSTEP$ qemu-0.9.0/i386-softmmu/qemu -fda 3.3_Boot_Disk.floppyimage -cdrom NextSTEP\ 3.3\ m68k\ i486.iso -net nic,model=ne2kpc -net user -soundhw sb16 -boot a hd.qcow2 06:03:15 * elliott breathes in 06:03:17 Is Helium the least reactive element? 06:03:22 qemu: could not load PC bios '/usr/local/share/qemu/bios.bin' 06:03:23 Fucktard! 06:03:55 elliott@dinky:~/NeXTSTEP$ find qemu-0.9.0 -name bios.bin 06:03:56 elliott@dinky:~/NeXTSTEP$ 06:03:58 ??? 06:04:05 pikhq: Does QEMU 0.9.0 not ship with a BIOS or something? 06:04:07 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:04:26 - The PC BIOS comes from the Bochs project 06:04:27 (http://bochs.sourceforge.net/). A patch from bios.diff was applied. 06:04:27 - The VGA BIOS and the Cirrus VGA BIOS come from the LGPL VGA bios 06:04:27 project (http://www.nongnu.org/vgabios/). 06:04:28 Hmm. 06:04:32 Then where are they? 06:05:46 Sgeo: Pretty much. 06:05:47 elliott@dinky:~/NeXTSTEP$ qemu-0.9.0/i386-softmmu/qemu -L /usr/share/qemu -fda 3.3_Boot_Disk.floppyimage -cdrom NextSTEP\ 3.3\ m68k\ i486.iso -net nic,model=ne2kpc -net user -soundhw sb16 -boot a hd.qcow2 06:05:50 What could possibly go wrong? 06:05:54 Sgeo: You can't get helium to react to anything. 06:05:55 qemu: Unsupported NIC: ne2kpc 06:05:57 Your mother fucks goats. 06:06:27 What's the next noble gas down, and does that react with anything? 06:07:03 Sgeo: Noble gases, unless ionic, don't react to anything. They're pretty dull all the way up 'til radon. Of course, before there you can still heat 'em up to make pretty colors :P 06:07:30 s/heat 'em up/put huge amounts of electricity through them/ 06:07:59 "ne2k_pci", "ne2k_isa" 06:08:06 That's from my version, but still. 06:08:07 Xenon is before Radon 06:08:25 Let's assume it's _pci. 06:08:31 Whoo, blank QEMU screen of DEATH 06:08:53 Sgeo: Yeah, and Xenon is /mostly/ boring. 06:08:57 Explanations required :P 06:09:00 Just less so than the ones before it :P 06:09:26 Well, when do they stop being 100% boring? 06:09:27 It appears that it doesn't like the BIOS at all for some reason. 06:10:01 Sgeo: None of them are 100% boring. Even helium can be made to react, just takes a lot of energy. 06:11:44 When do they start making stable compounds? 06:12:43 /Compounds/? 06:12:52 I thought we were talking about noble gases here. 06:13:05 hmm, how do I tell qemu to use pcbios, not vgabios? 06:13:20 "Helium can form unstable compounds, known as excimers, with tungsten, iodine, fluorine, sulfur and phosphorus when it is subjected to an electric glow discharge, to electron bombardment, or else is a plasma for another reason. The molecular compounds HeNe, HgHe10, and WHe2, and the molecular ions He 06:13:20 + 06:13:20 2 06:13:20 , He 06:13:21 2+ 06:13:25 2 06:13:27 , HeH+, and HeD+ have been created this way.[59]" 06:14:11 I'm just wondering why you're defining unboringness as stable compounds :P 06:14:14 But I think that would be argon. 06:15:23 http://i.imgur.com/0fCyV.png 06:15:59 elliott: Ow. 06:17:16 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:19:10 Solid helium exists? 06:19:49 Sgeo: ... Yes. 06:19:58 Sgeo: Just a matter of making it cold enough. 06:20:25 "Helium can form unstable compounds, known as excimers, with tungsten, iodine, fluorine, sulfur and phosphorus when it is subjected to an electric glow discharge, to electron bombardment, or else is a plasma for another reason. The molecular compounds HeNe, HgHe10, and WHe2, and the molecular ions He 06:20:26 + 06:20:26 2 06:20:26 , He 06:20:26 2+ 06:20:28 2 06:20:30 , HeH+, and HeD+ have been created this way.[59]" 06:20:40 pikhq: HAHA I NOW HAVE THE DEVELOPMENT TOOLS TOO 06:20:43 What I meant to paste was He tried to solidify it by further reducing the temperature but failed because helium does not have a triple point temperature at which the solid, liquid, and gas phases are at equilibrium. Onnes' student Willem Hendrik Keesom was eventually able to solidify 1 cm3 of helium in 1926.[17] 06:20:49 Gregor: So you've downloaded it, right? :P 06:22:09 Sgeo: Seems that it'll solidify at 2.5MPa and 0.95K. 06:22:14 pikhq: I am not sure qemu 0.9.0 works with SDL 1.2. 06:22:25 Oh, right, pressure is another variable 06:22:47 And boil at 4.22K at standard pressure... 06:23:27 Nope, it is 1.2. 06:24:07 "Boiling point: 4.22K" according to Wikipedia... 06:25:48 "Helium is the least reactive noble gas after neon and thus the second least reactive of all elements" 06:25:53 _second_ least? 06:26:00 pikhq: You are talking like Ilari... 06:26:42 * elliott looks for pxe-ne2k_pci.bin 06:26:50 Oh wait, I don't want that. 06:27:42 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:28:28 "a balloon filled with neon will rise in air, albeit more slowly than a helium balloon." 06:28:37 So stop using precious helium for balloons! 06:28:39 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:29:14 Sgeo: Citation on "second least reactive"? 06:29:46 Lewars, Errol G. (2008). Modelling Marvels . Springer. pp. 7071. ISBN 1402069723. 06:30:00 http://books.google.com/books?id=IoFzgBSSCwEC&pg=PA70&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false 06:30:10 pikhq: Got a qemu 0.9.0 bios? :P 06:31:00 It seems that when I do ctrl+alt+1 from the QEMU console it just... freezes the display at whatever it was and nothing shows up. 06:31:15 Hmm 06:31:20 It seems... uncertain 06:31:28 Sgeo: That book suggests that neon is less reactive, and neon is also a noble gas. 06:32:01 pikhq: That book suggests FIX MY QEMU 06:32:04 *QEMU ;_; 06:32:11 anyone interested in making book scanner? 06:32:29 Did elliott just do a null correct? 06:32:30 augur: Anyone interested in fixing my QEMU? 06:32:34 :| 06:32:41 Sgeo: "QEMU " -> "QEMU ;_;" 06:32:54 augur: I'll scan YOUR book. 06:33:02 Ah, thought the tears were in relation to having to make the correction 06:33:03 o mai 06:33:04 I'm tired 06:34:09 augur: YEAH CONSIDER YOUR BOOK SCANNED 06:37:38 I will pay anyone who creates a 1366x768 series of PNGs or animated GIF or anything that consists of, first, a bunch of N-pixel-blackness separated straight vertical white lines, that then, on the next frame, become slightly diagonal, and then on the next moreso, etc., until they are horizontal, and then they start going \-ways (so | / -- \, except a lot smoother) and continue going around until they are all straight again endless money 06:37:41 *endless money. 06:37:44 Also, this should be rather fast. 06:38:05 Obviously as they rotate to horizontal more should appear on the screen to keep the fill. 06:38:12 Maybe tomorrow or something 06:38:20 (It would suffice to create a huge one that doesn't have that, and then crop it in the centre.) 06:38:23 Sgeo: Hmm? 06:38:23 Then agian, I'd have to relearn PIL 06:38:27 Oh. 06:38:34 I might end up just doing it myself :P 06:38:37 And I have so much homework 06:38:41 The idea is to set it as your background and/or screensaver. 06:39:16 * Sgeo remembers doing image manipulation for that.. Python Challenge thingy 06:39:36 * Sgeo wonders if Factor is decent at image manipulation 06:40:13 coppro: http://www.reddit.com/user/Related_Magic_Card 06:40:40 elliott: I don't get it 06:40:48 * Sgeo gets it 06:40:55 coppro: Click "context" on the comments :P 06:41:09 Or permalink. 06:41:24 lol 06:49:21 http://i.imgur.com/dExFq.jpg 06:50:15 roffl 06:50:29 odds the border officers just wanted to watch porn? 06:52:11 coppro: Greatest job ever? :P 07:08:18 SO I MADE A NEW ESOLANG 07:08:19 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge/index.php 07:08:38 # (Protection log); 07:15 . . Ais523 (Talk | contribs) (protected "Talk:Befunge/index.php": spambot title [edit=sysop:move=sysop]) 07:08:38 # (diff) (hist) . . N Talk:Befunge/index.php‎; 07:15 . . (+15) . . Ais523 (Talk | contribs) (salt; spambot title, no real legitimate reason to use this unless someone invents a very weirdly named esolang) 07:08:44 WHOOPS LOOKS LIKE SOMEONE DID 07:10:48 So I guess it wasn't actually protected against creation? Or, worse, elliott is an admin? 07:10:59 "Talk:" 07:11:08 But I should totally become an admin now. Mwahahaha. 07:11:44 "And taking a look at the long range forecast, continued snow, darkness, and extreme cold. This is Howard Handupme, goodnight" 07:11:48 That seems.. whoops 07:11:58 "This page has been protected against creation and cannot be created without administrator help; " 07:12:26 Next I'll accidentally paste porn 07:13:47 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:13:53 Sgeo: "Talk:" 07:14:21 Oh, the talk page has been protected 07:14:28 Why TF would spammers attack a talk page/ 07:14:36 They do for some reason. 07:14:44 And it must now be deprotected, to allow for discussion on my language :P 07:20:18 I've also added CLC's rename language: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Rename 07:29:49 -!- cal153 has joined. 07:49:43 Night all 07:52:24 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:58:14 Behold my SNAZZY NEW USERPAGE http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird 07:58:21 HTML hates me. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:05:01 Goodnight; bye. 08:05:03 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:13:03 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:35:44 -!- wareya has joined. 08:38:08 -!- wareya_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 09:04:18 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:22:53 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:37:13 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:49:41 -!- aloril has joined. 09:55:03 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:55:29 -!- sftp has joined. 09:58:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:32:20 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:35:18 -!- sftp has joined. 13:36:12 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 13:42:08 -!- jcp has joined. 13:49:37 -!- jcp has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 13:53:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:56:39 -!- jcp has joined. 13:59:52 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 14:58:16 -!- Sasha has joined. 14:59:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:08:27 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:08:51 -!- augur has joined. 15:13:34 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:36:44 -!- augur has joined. 16:18:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:30:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:35:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: Page closed). 16:52:09 Next point of order: test Debian for GPU horribleness. 16:52:14 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:56:38 I despise stateful webapps 16:57:36 -!- elliott has joined. 16:59:07 Well, it's worth a shot, although I'm not hopeful. 17:00:49 If I disconnect suddenly, you'll know the outcome... 17:01:16 Phantom_Hoover: ? 17:01:29 Checking if my GPU woes are any better. 17:02:02 Phantom_Hoover: By the way, the system will become a little less stable after the release of squeeze. 17:02:09 It's still perfectly stable, just not as unchanging. 17:02:53 (A few months before the next Debian release, testing goes into a total freeze and stops getting updates (well, apart from security updates and the like). Then, a few months later, it's released as the next Debian. After that, testing thaws and it can be updated regularly again, by packages trickling in from unstable after being tested.) 17:03:58 (Okay, it technically gets updates that are just bug fixes. But no new features or anything.) 17:07:49 elliott did go to sleep at some point, right? 17:08:02 I ... think so. I still don't understand my own sleep schedule. 17:08:03 Anyway. 17:09:58 Testing is generally incredibly stable. 17:10:22 Just less so than Stable, which only makes notable changes every year or two. 17:11:13 pikhq: Oldstable makes changes with the same frequency! 17:11:14 And it's even OLDER 17:11:33 pikhq: Unfortunately, right now oldstable doesn't exist :P 17:11:45 (They decided to stop offering security updates for etch in January.) 17:11:53 ... Seriously? 17:11:58 Yeah. 17:11:59 http://www.debian.org/News/2010/20100121 17:12:09 pikhq: I think it was part of their "okay, seriously, we need to start updating stable more often" plan. 17:12:29 pikhq: But that's shorter than Ubuntu Long Term Support, how PATHETIC! :P 17:12:43 :P 17:12:50 "The security team tries to support a stable distribution for about one year after the next stable distribution has been released, except when another stable distribution is released within this year. It is not possible to support three distributions; supporting two simultaneously is already difficult enough." 17:12:56 Two stable Debians in a year. 17:12:57 Pffft. 17:13:26 So why *does* Debian have 2 web browsers by default? 17:13:33 Phantom_Hoover: Hmm? 17:13:42 Phantom_Hoover: Because it ships the entire, default GNOME by default, plus Debian desktop environment extras. 17:14:02 The Debian "gnome" package consists of all the packages that make up GNOME, plus Debian's extras. 17:14:19 Phantom_Hoover: http://packages.debian.org/testing/gnome/gnome 17:14:55 And Iceweasel is so named because Mozilla is totalitarian about the name "Firefox", yes? 17:14:58 Phantom_Hoover: So if you see those gnome-* packages, those, plus a few of the dependencies there, make up official GNOME; the rest are Debian inclusions. 17:15:02 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. 17:15:14 Phantom_Hoover: Since Debian modify even one byte of Firefox, it must be called something else. 17:15:30 Phantom_Hoover: (It also must use a different logo, despite the logo now being Free as of recently, because it is trademarked.) 17:15:47 I thought it was that you could only call it "Firefox" if your modifications fell within certain conditions? 17:15:50 Phantom_Hoover: Before you ask, Ubuntu get around it because Canonical are corporatist dickwads who have enough money to make deals. :) 17:16:03 Phantom_Hoover: No. Any modification must not be called Firefox, as far as I am aware after looking into this. 17:16:28 -!- yorick has joined. 17:16:45 [[For the free software company, see Canonical Ltd..]] — WP 17:16:49 Hah. 17:18:09 elliott: If distributed. 17:18:17 elliott: Which is how Gentoo gets away with it. 17:18:30 Wait what? 17:18:30 Well, yeah; you can compile whatever you want. 17:18:50 Are you saying that distributing source is differentn from distributing binaries? 17:18:56 Sgeo: IF YOU DO NOT IMMEDIATELY DISCONTINUE YOUR USE OR AT LEAST OVERUSE OF "WAIT WHAT" I REFUSE TO RESPOND TO ANY MORE QUESTIONS AS YOU ARE DILUTING THE TERM 17:18:59 Sgeo: Trademark law is a bitch. 17:19:16 Sgeo: Also, Gentoo doesn't distribute modified source. 17:19:39 Sgeo: They distribute patches and the original source, and you *may* apply those patches and get a binary that would be illegal to share with anyone. 17:19:53 "Doctors at the Swedish Medical Center in Seattle wanted to tweet the surgery in order to raise awareness about a new, less invasive method of removing tumors." 17:19:55 i feel so reassured 17:20:06 Sgeo: Or you can tell Gentoo to just turn on the configuration flag that'll make it do a legal release. 17:20:18 "We could have saved your husband as the unexpected complication came up, but we were too busy TWEETING IT." 17:20:29 Well, I'd be ok with it if it was someone not actually doing the surgery, but just watching, who was tweeting 17:20:45 (using the Firefox logo minus the actual fox, and using the code name instead of Firefox for the name of the browser. "firefox" will still execute it.) 17:21:05 Well, presumably the watcher would be a doctor, and if a complication came up, they should get involved, so 17:21:59 So, kinda like this, except without the bomb fuse: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Minefield_about.png 17:22:47 So what's the bomb fuse doing in the picture? 17:23:26 That's a trunk build. 17:23:32 Trunk builds might blow up. 17:24:08 What's the Firefox logo for that? 17:24:21 As opposed to the "clean and legal to modify and redistribute" logo 17:24:29 N/A... 17:25:54 pikhq, ah, that's why Shiretoko carefully avoided the term "Firefox". 17:27:12 If Shiretoko is a Mozilla Foundation project, why do they need to avoid saying "Firefox"? 17:27:26 And, inexplicably, my backlight controls have completely ceased to function. 17:27:27 ...Oh 17:27:32 I think I get it now 17:27:40 Trunk builds of Firefox are not called Firefox? 17:27:59 Only official releases with the Mozilla Foundation approval. 17:28:14 Well, back then I was using Ubuntu's version of it before it had replace Firefox 3.0, so I assume they'd modified it 17:28:24 http://www.mozilla.org/projects/shiretoko/ in Chrome thinks I'm running an early version of Shiretoko 17:30:36 elliott, incidentally, is configuration allowed? 17:31:09 Forbidding it outright is stupid, but there's almost certainly a way of getting arbitrary modifications in with it. 17:31:25 Phantom_Hoover: Request approval. 17:32:38 For configuration? 17:34:12 For any modifications at all. 17:34:59 * Sgeo bows to his strict Firefox masters 17:37:37 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:40:49 back 17:49:33 So, uh, Apple are discontinuing Xserves. I wonder why...? 17:49:50 "Apple has put together a "transition guide," advising that users switch over to the Mac Pro or ... the Mac mini" 17:55:50 OK, testing GPU reliability again... 18:01:19 Phantom_Hoover: Fun fact: Debian stills offers the latest kernel compiled for the 486. You know, in case you don't have an i686 or better, i.e. Pentium Pro or newer, i.e. any processor since November 1995. 18:01:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:02:47 I feel so stupid for getting rid of that old box; it would have ran BSD or Linux or something. 18:04:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 18:04:34 Ouch... 18:04:48 -!- nooga has joined. 18:04:56 i've made a pretty picture 18:04:59 http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7735/budda.png 18:05:26 Must be a Linux problem, then. 18:05:30 No you didn't, that is a fractal :V 18:05:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:06:01 nooga, what's the fractal? 18:06:21 Buddhabrot. 18:06:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 18:06:41 nooga: huh, it seems like a photo somehow or something. 18:06:44 nooga: The graininess. 18:08:54 It looks vaguely Electric Sheep-like. 18:09:26 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 18:10:42 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:20:13 Do iPhones dream of walled-in electric sheep? 18:20:48 * elliott sets mode +o ehird 18:20:55 * elliott has kicked Sgeo (Sgeo) 18:21:13 * Sgeo accidentally kick-evades 18:22:05 * Sgeo wonders if there are people who'd fall for that 18:44:31 God, Debian used to be *ridiculously* slow to update. 18:44:58 Their last release without Linux 2.2 was made in 2005. 18:45:13 Erm, first. 18:45:58 It was entirely possible for a Debian user to upgrade from Linux 2.2 to Linux 2.6, entirely skipping 2.4. 18:50:00 2.4 was LAME anyway. 18:50:04 :P 18:50:14 This also means people could skip right over devfs and to udev. 18:50:23 So, y'know, silver lining or something? 18:51:14 elliott: I especially love that you fake-opped the wrong nick. 18:51:30 Gregor: ehird is, uh, the, uh 18:51:34 * elliott sets mode +o elliott 18:51:39 * elliott sets mode +b Gregor*!*@* 18:51:43 * elliott has kicked Gregor (FUCK YOU) 19:01:15 It's scary that I didn't notice 19:01:16 -!- iGO has joined. 19:03:25 * Phantom_Hoover realises the Debian releases are named after Toy Story characters. 19:03:48 This distribution is now about 20 times as awesome. 19:03:54 * Sgeo experiments on Phantom_Hoover 19:04:04 Phantom_Hoover: You just now realised it? 19:04:05 Phantom_Hoover: And unstable is called sid for a reason... 19:04:13 Phantom_Hoover: It breaks shit. 19:04:19 elliott, my mind is blown. 19:05:01 Sid Dabster 19:16:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:28:57 -!- FireyFly has joined. 19:29:47 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 19:34:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:46:49 Anyone feel like fixing the snowman on http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird? :P 19:47:10 Well, that's fun. 19:47:29 pikhq: IT IS except the snowman is too high. 19:47:36 I assume you mean my page. 19:47:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:47:40 The UN Human Rights Council is currently reviewing the US's human rights record. 19:48:06 Oh. 19:48:09 Well fuck you :p 19:48:10 *:p 19:48:12 *:P 19:56:07 -!- iGO has quit. 19:56:24 -!- iGO has joined. 20:03:47 -!- iGO has quit. 20:05:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:06:06 ERROR: wget failed to download http://people.debian.org/~bartm/flashplugin-nonfree/fp10.sha512.amd64.pgp.asc 20:06:06 More information might be available at: 20:06:06 http://wiki.debian.org/FlashPlayer 20:06:06 heh 20:06:31 The package in unstable http://packages.debian.org/sid/flashplugin-nonfree is suitable for Lenny (stable) and Squeeze (testing). 20:06:32 ah 20:06:35 "On amd64 the 64 bit preview release 10.2.161.23 is installed." 20:06:36 awesome! 20:10:02 But can you listen to videos in a different tab? 20:11:04 Also, what was the name of that Swedish kernel.org mirror? 20:11:23 Phantom_Hoover: You can get it in Software Sources. 20:11:27 No need to edit sources.list directly. 20:11:36 The "Select Best Server" button? 20:11:38 (which I'd tend to avoid out of fear anyway). 20:11:40 *anyway.) 20:11:44 Phantom_Hoover: No, that selects a crappy one. 20:11:46 It's based on ping time. 20:11:51 Select "Other..." 20:11:53 It's in SE. 20:11:54 Ah, how stupid. 20:11:59 Make sure you select http, not ftp. 20:12:12 The last one in SE, in fact. 20:12:46 How did you determine it's fastest? 20:14:41 Stuff that needs to die: Wubi. 20:15:11 Phantom_Hoover: I didn't determine it's *the* fastest, but I've tried various servers in my time and Swedish ones are the fastest. 20:15:25 Good infrastructure? 20:15:26 Phantom_Hoover: And kernel.org servers have a phat pipe and are also really reliable, of course. 20:15:31 Phantom_Hoover: Who knows? Probably. 20:16:09 Phantom_Hoover: It maxes out my connection, at least. 20:17:23 Me too. 20:17:40 Purely out of curiosity, what ISP are you on? 20:18:18 Phantom_Hoover: Uh, Orange. I heavily recommend against them. 20:18:24 Phantom_Hoover: And heavily endorse http://www.bogons.net/. 20:18:33 Strongly, I guess, not heavily. Whatever. 20:21:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 20:22:16 elliott, ADSL is... slower than cable modem? 20:22:35 Phantom_Hoover_: Well, uh, yes, can't get cable here. And all the cable ISPs suck major ass. 20:22:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:22:48 elliott, true. 20:23:03 Phantom_Hoover_: Besides, ADSL2+++++++++++++ gets all 24 megs and whatnot! 20:23:12 Phantom_Hoover_: And if you want more than that, get fibre optic, you lazy bum. 20:23:23 Phantom_Hoover_: (Note: Bogons' ADSL2+ service is hideously expensive.) 20:23:28 By doing a little roadworking? 20:23:31 Since it's part of the business services. 20:23:32 Phantom_Hoover_: Yes. 20:23:40 Dig up the petunias. 20:24:01 Wait, maybe I can just tunnel under the street for a short distance. 20:24:59 The network definitely runs through Edinburgh. 20:25:06 Yeah. :P 20:25:47 Not sure to what degree my ISP uses it, though. 20:26:06 Or, indeed, whether I have it. 20:26:41 Phantom_Hoover_: It is unlikely that there is fibre optic on your street. :P 20:26:46 Well, under. 20:26:50 Thought so. 20:27:07 Well, I don't have a construction company handy. 20:29:01 elliott, did you buy minecraft? 20:29:11 Vorpal: Not yet! I'm not sure Java will like it. 20:29:20 Vorpal: As soon as I verify that it will I will. 20:29:57 elliott, not like it in what way? 20:30:06 Vorpal: Stuttery audio, graphics performance. 20:30:18 (I had to set the fog to the second-nearest setting in Classic to get acceptable performance.) 20:30:33 Being an applet is probably partly to blame, and I imagine Alpha's code is more solid, but still. 20:31:05 elliott: so there was this news story i wanted you to complain about but you werent here so you couldnt then i forgot what the news story was 20:31:33 coppro: and the sky the sky it is made of red hot lava and it fell down from the sky onto the floor and we all slept but it was really actually dying not sleeping because the lava burned us to death 20:31:53 Further investigation implies that I might actually have a fiber-optic cable under my street. 20:31:53 two bad things 20:32:03 Well, suggests. 20:32:04 elliott: thanks 20:32:12 coppro: ...thanks? 20:32:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 20:32:21 Phantom_Hoover_: You get to choose between: (1) BT (2) Virgin Media. Well, at least if the situation is the same as in England. 20:32:23 elliott, well... I found an old version of alpha at a certain bay (and a link to the linux version in a comment), on my desktop it works as long as I set "fast graphics". But that is nvidia and emu10k... 20:32:30 elliott, I am on (2). 20:32:31 Phantom_Hoover: Probably the two worst ISPs. 20:32:37 Phantom_Hoover: You really don't want to be on Virgin. 20:32:42 Seriously. 20:32:47 I don't, but my say in the matter is limited. 20:33:09 Phantom_Hoover: For instance, their CEO has called net neutrality "a load of bollocks". 20:33:22 Yeah, I'm no great fan. 20:33:25 "and he's promised to put any website or service that won't pay Virgin a premium to reach its customers into the "Internet bus lane."" (-- boing boing, but still) 20:33:27 so have most isps all they want is monies 20:33:27 elliott, it does NOT work well on the pentium-m dell with pre-HD audio. Well sound works fine. But 3-5 FPS is not so fun 20:33:33 coppro: not in the UK. 20:33:38 also coppro has lost his shift key 20:33:48 no i just decided punctuation is bad today 20:33:56 i need to save it all for the code party later 20:33:56 brb 20:33:59 Vorpal: Well, I'll try it out. That... Warzone somethingsomething game worked smoothly at full resolution; Minecraft can't be more complex than that, right?!>?!?!! 20:34:05 coppro: capitals arent punctuation 20:34:07 i am disappointed i have to use a slash to change windows 20:34:10 they count 20:34:36 elliott, like I said, I have absolutely no say in the matter. 20:35:00 Your MO-- 20:35:29 Phantom_Hoover: Oh yeah, and they tested Phorm without telling anyone. 20:35:35 elliott, well who knows. Want the direct link to the linux one linked? 20:35:42 Vorpal: Sure, I was about to search but sure :P 20:35:58 sec 20:36:20 Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and if you're not quite hardcore enough for Bogons I recommend BE. 20:36:23 (I know you have no say.) 20:36:44 Well, I'll be an impoverished student soon enough. 20:37:06 It occurs to me that, given a COBOL program that reads a file, you can say things about the file's structure that you can't with most languages 20:37:38 like it is sufficiently simple to be read by a cobol program maybe 20:37:52 coppro: you are cooler without caps 20:38:00 Oh, god, Sgeo. Please don't fall in love with COBOL. 20:38:02 Hmm. To try and get a second computer running or not... 20:38:09 im also being more banjooie today 20:38:18 bonus points for working out what it means 20:38:19 COBOL has to predeclare the structure of files, right? 20:38:36 Phantom_Hoover, it might be a good language to learn for career-ness 20:38:48 And it seems interesting 20:38:49 BLARGH 20:38:55 Sgeo: YOU ARE A FUCKING MORON 20:38:58 >_< 20:39:10 I didn't say "good", did I? 20:39:14 Just.. interesting 20:39:16 COBOL. It was outdated when you were BORN. 20:39:25 Sgeo: I HOPE SPIKES RAPE YOUR BEING 20:39:28 Places stil use COBOL, don't they? 20:39:29 ALSO, WASPS 20:39:35 Sgeo: Places still use *horrible, horrible* COBOL. 20:39:44 AND OF COURSE IT DENIES THE EXISTENCE OF THE LOWER-CASE LETTER. 20:39:58 Phantom_Hoover, I thought it was case-insensitive 20:40:23 SGEO, IT'S STILL ALL-CAPS. 20:40:36 SPIKES SPIKES SPIKES OH GOD THE SPIKES 20:40:42 As a convention? 20:42:18 coppro: what are the flatulences 20:42:23 elliott: mathnews 20:42:36 coppro: SO HOW'Z MY ARTICLE DOING 20:43:35 So many words 20:43:39 So verbose 20:47:20 Sgeo: NOT AS A CONVENTION. IT PREDATES LOWER-CASE LETTERS. 20:48:09 There's a 2002 standard 20:48:19 Should I bother with it, or does it ruin the historicalness 20:49:56 abacabb 20:53:02 pikhq, OLDER THAN I THOUGHT, THEN. 20:53:23 IS "COBOL" EVEN A VALID LATINY WORD? 20:53:34 THE ENDING SEEMS UNNATURAL. 20:54:05 Sgeo: COBOL IS ONLY WORTH LEARNING IF YOU WANT TO KEEP ABSURDLY OLD SYSTEMS RUNNING. 20:54:14 SGEO: AKA, YOU WISH TO NO LONGER HAVE A SOUL. 20:54:29 Some young people have to learn COBOL eventually 20:54:45 *SOME YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE TO LEARN COBOL EVENTUALLY 20:55:36 .paet 20:55:59 18:05 < Phantom_Hoover_> nooga, what's the fractal? 20:56:06 mandelbrot 20:56:16 but rendered in abuddhabrot way 20:56:27 nooga, OK, what rendering algorithm? 20:56:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhabrot 20:56:46 pretty simple 20:56:58 pikhq, WHY IS COBOL IN ENGLISH, NOT LATIN, IF IT PREDATES LOWER-CASE? 20:57:13 Phantom_Hoover: IT PREDATES ENCODING OF LOWER-CASE ON COMPUTERS. 20:57:21 i'm attempting to render it using a little cluster that i've built 20:57:31 say 500Mpix 20:57:32 NEXT EX HINT: 20:57:32 (THE DESIGNERS COULD NOT THINK OF A CLEVER LEGEND OF ZELDA HINT) 20:57:39 nooga: can I use your cluster for shit 20:58:01 no, because macines belong to my university 20:58:03 Sgeo: If young people don't learn COBOL, then it will finally die. 20:58:05 machines 20:58:12 nooga: SO? 20:58:22 pikhq, what about all the code that needs to be maintained 20:58:28 so nobody can access it from the outside 20:58:30 Are those businesses supposed to just die? 20:58:39 Sgeo is the worst person in the world 20:58:41 Or, at least, have business logic transferred to a different language 20:58:46 even i have to go to the uni to use it 20:58:50 Someone needs to be able to read it, at least 20:58:56 Sgeo: Do these businesses still use 50 year old everything else? 20:59:21 pikhq, imagine IE 6 in 50 years 20:59:31 Sgeo: Some things become obsolete. Businesses should deal with it. 20:59:38 Sgeo: And COBOL was obsolete 30 years ago. 20:59:42 nooga, so the algorithm is to increment a pixel based on how many paths that end in the set go through it? 20:59:52 yep 21:00:14 Why, exactly, is there a 2002 standard? Not claiming COBOL isn't obsolete, I'm just curious 21:00:28 and the color is obtained by rendering with different bailout values separately for R,G and B and mixing the channels 21:00:44 Sgeo: Because some morons felt like trying to make it not obsolete by adding the latest buzzwords. 21:01:10 it's pretty but i doubt it has some interesting properties 21:01:13 It supports XML and OOP. 21:02:01 * Phantom_Hoover vomits a little. 21:03:10 Also, the COBOL spec broke backwards compatibility with what was used for really old systems back in '85... 21:03:35 Meaning that you would need to rewrite things just to use a modern COBOL implementation. 21:03:37 on the other hand 21:03:48 At which point you might as well use a better language, like any language newer than it. 21:03:51 if you've known COBOL in the old years 21:04:02 you were like a god 21:04:29 I mean, dear God the fucking language was designed by Grace Hopper. That's fucking *old*. 21:04:44 Any modern COBOL implementations use a pre-85 spec? 21:04:57 (you may know Grace Hopper for inventing the programming language.) 21:05:38 Hmm, Xmarks is back? 21:06:02 Sgeo: Not really, but IBM mainframes retain binary compatibility. 21:06:48 How much do mainframes cost these days? I mean, they're obsoleteish, right? My notebook's much more powerful? So surely, they're cheap? 21:06:59 They still make them. 21:07:41 Ok, but how much do they cost? 21:08:04 Rather a lot. 21:08:35 They can run several thousand Linux VMs at once. 21:09:48 Sgeo, please stop doing such awful things to interrogative statements. 21:09:57 *sentences 21:10:13 Next, you'll want me to stop verbing nouns? 21:13:21 Sgeo: Oh, and if you want to run *really* old mainframe programs, you could reasonably do it for no cost. Some of the older versions of the OS for them are public domain or free of charge. 21:13:47 And some crazy bastards wrote an emulator. 21:14:04 Was about to ask.. well, I wasn't, because it sounded like a stupid question 21:15:27 `addquote How much do mainframes cost these days? I mean, they're obsoleteish, right? My notebook's much more powerful? So surely, they're cheap? 21:15:41 Was about to ask.. well, I wasn't, because it sounded like a stupid question 21:15:44 Since when does that stop you? 21:15:55 253| How much do mainframes cost these days? I mean, they're obsoleteish, right? My notebook's much more powerful? So surely, they're cheap? 21:16:38 How much would a 70s era mainframe cost today? 21:16:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLOW-MATIC 21:17:00 "Defining Files in advance, and separating into INPUT and OUTPUT files." 21:17:10 I still think that that's arguably a nice feature of COBOL 21:17:33 Sgeo: Probably quite a lot, due to being a museum piece. 21:18:14 Ok, how much would one of the early widespread-use mainframes cost today/ 21:20:45 What, you mean in terms of net power? 21:21:43 In terms of purchasing a physical machine, although sure, net power too 21:21:50 Uh, seems a few thousand dollars. 21:22:11 There really weren't that many of them made, y'know. 21:22:33 When were there many mainframes being made? 21:22:38 Sgeo, in terms of net power, all of £0.00 (that's $0.00). 21:22:40 When did the Pope shit in the woods? 21:22:45 When did a bear convert to Catholicism? 21:22:53 When did Sgeo stop asking incessant questions without Googling first? 21:23:12 Phantom_Hoover: I believe that £0.00 = $79.44. 21:23:12 At about the same time that it seemed like a good idea to scrap the damned things for their metal when replaced. 21:23:26 elliott, ah, yes, screwed up economy. 21:24:12 Seems a system 390 is going to be the oldest machine you can find working. And that's a few thousand bucks. 21:26:39 The system 390s are also going to be the oldest machines that you could actually get working without creating a well air-conditioned room and having an electrician come in to install a three-phase power hookup. 21:30:21 * Sgeo looks up specs 21:30:38 * Phantom_Hoover cringes. 21:30:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_ESA/390 ? 21:30:46 That says 1990 21:33:29 Sgeo, get an emulator. It'll run way faster and be much easier. 21:33:47 I'm not allowed to be curious about old machines? 21:34:08 Althogh yeah, I was fantasizing about buying something, but I have many fantasizes 21:34:14 fantasies 21:34:55 Please, for everyone's sanity, go no further down that road. 21:36:29 Phantom_Hoover, go no further down the road of describing my fantasies? 21:36:43 For god's sake, yes. 21:36:44 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 21:51:03 Hey, I found a paper describing CAs on spherical topologies. 21:52:01 Sgeo: Grab Hercules and install Debian on it. 21:52:23 Hercules? 21:52:37 That's the emulator. 21:52:49 Sgeo i tried to buy Odra 21:53:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odra_(computer) 21:53:27 Odra 1305 with 2 processors and stuff 21:53:44 the last one was decommisioned in June this year 21:53:55 390? 21:54:11 they wanted to get rid of it and probably throw it away 21:54:26 Sgeo, do you just live in your own little bubble? 21:54:30 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. 21:54:46 I thought someone said 360 21:54:54 Hercules says 390 21:55:01 erm, 370 21:55:09 pikhq: New hobby: Emulators + Debian. 21:55:10 The 390 is another thing it can emulate.. I think 21:55:11 Also, I am steadily convincing myself that an invasion is ongoing outside my house. 21:55:35 come on 21:55:40 390 is too new 21:56:01 Well, it does System/370 as well. 21:56:30 z/Linux should be working fine 21:57:10 * elliott looks for the list of old debian releases 21:57:18 pikhq: Apparently buzz is not nearly the oldest Debian. 21:57:25 So I wonder if that's the first one to use Toy Story release names? 21:58:16 "starting at version 1.1, debian releases have been named after a character in the movie Toy Story, a trend which continues to the present" 21:58:44 pikhq: Okay, buzz is 1.1. 21:58:49 Apparently there are older releases. 22:00:51 I think we should email oerjan. 22:01:10 Sgeo: Hercules emulates a Series z mainframe. 22:01:42 Sgeo: Which is of course compatible all the way back to System/360. 22:02:59 Sent an email to oerjan. 22:03:56 Ooh, Attenborough is on. 22:04:23 Someone ought to fix http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird :P 22:05:11 I vote no so many times. 22:05:55 Gregor: You just don't appreciate the AWESOME. 22:06:13 All it needs is a spacing fix for the snowman! 22:06:40 Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for further information about the cause of this error. The error that the other server returned was: 554 554 : Recipient address rejected: User account has expired (state 14). 22:06:54 Okay, *now* I'm worrying. 22:09:38 What's the recipient domain? 22:10:04 Sgeo: A server -- I think the computer science club -- of his (ex-)university. 22:10:39 http://nvg.org/ 22:12:09 Do we know what causes accounts to expire on that server? 22:12:22 No. He got his Ph.D. many years ago, so it's not that he's left or anything. 22:12:40 We could email someone there to ask 22:12:42 I will see if I can email NVG. 22:15:40 I've sent an email to their support. 22:18:47 herp derp 22:19:30 elliott: you have oerjan's email? 22:20:00 http://esolangs.org/wiki/%C3%98rjan_Johansen -> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ (which I knew) -> http://oerjan.nvg.org/ -> oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no 22:20:06 It is, as I said, expired. 22:20:34 http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://nvg.org/index.php%3Flink%3Domnvg%26sublink%3Dkontakt&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhjR_3qM6CRengj-UdptFmksQE5RVQ I don't know if support@nvg.ntnu.no was the right one to pick out of all those emails (I only saw support and drift on the other page I got it from), but I'm sure they can forward it on if required. 22:22:06 ooh, goodbye horses is a really nice song 22:22:16 (from silence of the lambs) 22:22:37 hehe, and 'lambs' almost became 'lambdas' there 22:25:28 my student e-mail is also expired since a couple of years back 22:25:47 olsner: still. he used it up to present i think 22:25:50 and he's ooooooooold :) 22:27:47 but you only say that because you're YOOOOUUUNG :P 22:29:21 olsner: he's like 38! 39! 22:29:22 THERE IS NOBODY OLDER 22:29:32 anyway you're uhh, i guessed it right before 22:29:32 24? 22:29:37 SEE HE'S EVEN OLDER THAN YOU 22:29:37 OLDIE 22:29:44 My logic, it is infallible. 22:30:02 is he 38? REALLY!? 22:30:07 yes 22:30:20 olsner: SEE EVEN YOU AGREE NOW 22:30:21 ooooooooooooooold 22:30:33 yeah, that is much too old for comfort 22:30:43 older than cpressey? 22:30:45 if you didn't say he was old you'd become that old yourself 22:30:53 olsner: we don't know cpressey's age for sure :P 22:31:35 isn't that in public records somewhere? 22:31:37 olsner: we know he was in his teens in the 80s and ran some BBSes in... I think he gave some year range... when he was 16 and I'm starting to realise that a good memory ends up making you look like a stalker 22:31:55 at least in sweden you can look up people's birth dates from names 22:32:00 this is AMERICA 22:32:02 we're FREEDOM 22:32:11 oh, he's AMERICAN 22:32:15 well he's canadian i think 22:32:17 but he's in america 22:32:18 i dunno 22:32:34 canada is in america, duh 22:32:53 elliott is a stalker? 22:33:01 * Sgeo attempts to erase his name from elliott's memory 22:33:11 indeed Seth Gold 22:33:17 olsner: but not in the united states of :P 22:34:45 * olsner is suddenly struck by the feeling of having something extremely relevant to say 22:34:51 can't remember what though :/ 22:35:24 olsner: fgsfds 22:35:38 elliott: right. 22:36:01 elliott: So, I've discovered something. 22:36:11 starch and cheese: good combination 22:36:11 I DO THAT ALL DAY 22:36:14 elliott: The US release of Monty Python's Flying Circus had *really* shitty video quality. 22:36:30 Your face has really shitty video quality. 22:36:35 olsner: Stcheese 22:36:42 It's like they used a VHS tape for the source material or something. 22:36:45 THEY DID 22:36:47 elliott: or mac-n-cheese 22:36:54 olsner: charch 22:37:12 elliott: PAL release looks quite a bit better. 22:41:42 elliott: What's especially "fun" is that the US release actually did a 25i->30i conversion for portions that were originally done 24p. Really. It's 24p->25i->30i converted. 22:42:06 genius 22:46:27 Isn't it? 22:47:04 coppro: - is punctuation 22:51:24 Huh. Wikipedia romanises スーパー・ヴィエイチエス as Sūpāvu~ieichiesu. Which is pronounced as something like "Sūpā vi eichi esu". Non-standard kana seems to really fuck up their ideas of romanisation. 22:56:57 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 22:56:59 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Excess Flood). 22:57:27 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 22:57:27 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Excess Flood). 22:57:41 (I'd romanise it as sûhą̂ ùīeitiesu, and god was it a pain trying to just get the appropriate combining character for that) 22:57:57 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 22:57:57 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Excess Flood). 22:58:27 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 22:58:27 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Excess Flood). 22:58:52 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 22:58:52 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Excess Flood). 22:59:21 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 22:59:21 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Excess Flood). 22:59:41 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:59:47 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:59:47 -!- sebbu has quit (Excess Flood). 23:00:14 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:00:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Excess Flood). 23:00:37 pikhq: eh, but 'h' in suha? or did you intend some of the combining characters to indicate the plosive variant? 23:00:42 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:00:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Excess Flood). 23:01:08 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:01:09 -!- sebbu has quit (Excess Flood). 23:01:37 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:01:38 -!- sebbu has quit (Excess Flood). 23:01:45 olsner: The ogonek or cedilla indicates the plosive variant. 23:02:07 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:02:09 -!- sebbu has quit (Excess Flood). 23:02:17 but it's on the a? 23:02:35 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:02:35 -!- sebbu has quit (Excess Flood). 23:02:52 Yes, the dakuten and handakuten in my romanisation go on the vowel. 23:03:01 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:03:01 -!- sebbu has quit (Excess Flood). 23:03:07 oh, ok 23:03:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: oerjan missing; PANIC | *cringe* record: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 23:03:26 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:03:26 -!- sebbu has quit (Excess Flood). 23:03:55 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:03:55 -!- sebbu has quit (Excess Flood). 23:03:56 Thus allowing it to work just the same when it's applied to a consonantless kana in a non-standard usage of kana. 23:03:56 and sebbu is running in circles, clearly devoted to the panic in the topic 23:04:23 oh, can you have han/dakuten on such kana? 23:04:24 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:04:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Excess Flood). 23:04:31 how does that get pronounced? 23:04:51 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:04:51 -!- sebbu has quit (Excess Flood). 23:04:54 ヴ is usually used to indicate "V" in transcriptions. 23:05:17 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:05:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Excess Flood). 23:05:43 ヴァヴィヴヴェヴォ for the "va vi vu ve vo" morae. 23:05:44 hmm, I seem to be missing the fonts 23:05:47 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:05:47 -!- sebbu has quit (Excess Flood). 23:06:01 probably due to elliott telling me to uninstall my fonts because there were better fonts 23:06:16 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:06:16 -!- sebbu has quit (Excess Flood). 23:06:45 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:06:46 -!- sebbu has quit (Excess Flood). 23:06:56 It also handles the kana usage in non-Japanese languages... 23:07:16 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:07:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Excess Flood). 23:07:18 What was oerjan's last action? 23:07:27 Phantom_Hoover: uh, quitting 23:07:37 elliott, OK, seriously. 23:07:37 before that just saying something, nothing pertinent 23:07:47 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:07:54 10.10.21:20:18:59 sheesh, fission does not release energy for elements < iron, pikhq 23:07:54 10.10.21:20:25:24 well more or less. 23:07:54 10.10.21:20:26:36 although the "helium mines" _was_ a joke 23:07:54 10.10.21:20:46:20 catseye: which might be why it's wrong 23:08:03 hmm 23:08:06 if his email account is gone 23:08:08 then his shell account will be too 23:08:11 and that's how he accessed irc 23:08:15 he ran off trying to set up a helium mine? 23:08:16 it could just be a server thing 23:08:34 Phantom_Hoover: he came in on the 22nd too but just join and then quit 23:08:41 just an hour and a bit apart 23:08:49 10.10.22:07:18:00 --- quit: oerjan (Quit: leaving) 23:08:49 10.10.23:14:15:04 I'm surprised oerjan hasn't cracked down on them. 23:08:56 you mentioned him first after that :P 23:09:18 For instance, "アイヌ・イタㇰ" can be romanised as "ainu itak̅u", but can't be encoded at all in any other romanisation scheme that I know of... 23:09:22 Well, that explains why he hadn't cracked down on them. 23:09:31 so it's been 15 days since he talked 23:09:49 pikhq: What about YOURS 23:09:57 (well, except for an Ainu-specific scheme based on pronunciation) 23:10:10 elliott: "ainu itak̅u" in my scheme. 23:10:15 Ah. 23:10:25 "Ainu language" in Ainu. 23:11:35 (Ainu is a non-Japonic language, but happens to be native to the island of Hokkaidō, hence the kana orthography) 23:13:58 pikhq, how does your romanisation work? 23:15:28 Phantom_Hoover: For the gojuuon (your standard kana chart), I use the "ordinary" romanisation. 23:17:00 Phantom_Hoover: A grave on the vowel is a dakuten (the voiced consonant diacritic). A cedilla or ogonek on the vowel is a handakuten (the plosive consonant diacritic). A macron on the start of the kana indicates that it's small. A circumflex on the vowel indicates that it's long. 23:17:28 Phantom_Hoover: ' is a shorthand for t̅u. 23:17:41 Phantom_Hoover: Oh. One other thing. The moraic n is romanised as "nn". 23:17:44 That's all. 23:18:14 elliott, damn you, I'm now trying to install Debian 5.something on Hercules. 23:18:25 Phantom_Hoover: Good luck :P 23:18:36 So, basically, it's a highly pedantic encoding of kana. 23:18:38 Oh, I'm failing utterly. 23:18:48 Phantom_Hoover: Try an older Debian. 23:19:04 elliott, if I could *get* the image, that would be a start. 23:19:23 Well, *ISO 23:19:25 elliott: Debian still supports System z. 23:19:26 Phantom_Hoover: ? 23:19:30 elliott: To this day. 23:19:31 What problem are you having? 23:19:34 pikhq: The ports can bitrot sometimes. 23:19:41 I think. 23:19:43 elliott, no netinst, so I need the CD, and I'm lazy. 23:19:51 elliott: Actually, not really. 23:19:56 Phantom_Hoover: Uhh, Debian is like 40 CDs. 23:19:58 You need netinst :P 23:20:17 Well. 23:20:18 http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/5.0.6/s390/iso-cd/ 23:20:20 Okay, three CDs. 23:20:20 Still. 23:20:24 (lol @ kde and xfce/lxde CDs) 23:20:34 elliott: A package failing on a port in unstable prevents it from going to testing on *any* port. 23:20:37 elliott, yeah, but *there is no netinst for s390*. 23:20:51 meh, fillers :/ 23:21:00 elliott: Assuming, of course, the package is set to build for that. 23:21:01 Phantom_Hoover: Oh :P 23:21:24 pikhq: Yeah, but that doesn't mean the whole system will actually install and run properly or anything. :P 23:21:38 I guess I'll just have to stop watching this shite and wait another year for episodes with contents again 23:21:52 elliott: Also, the System z port is actually used. 23:22:14 fair 'nuff 23:22:18 elliott: Thousands of VMs at once, hells yeah. 23:22:25 olsner: lawl 23:22:38 elliott: yeah, I know... 23:23:42 olsner, episodes of what? 23:24:31 Phantom_Hoover: naruto shippuuden 23:25:16 I guessed just from the excessive filler :P 23:25:17 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:25:51 elliott, hmm, which files do I actually download for Debian s390? 23:26:03 [ ] debian-506-s390-CD-1.iso 05-Sep-2010 02:59 648M 23:26:03 [ ] debian-506-s390-CD-2.iso 05-Sep-2010 02:59 638M 23:26:03 [ ] debian-506-s390-CD-3.iso 05-Sep-2010 02:59 648M 23:26:04 http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/5.0.6/s390/iso-cd/ 23:26:09 You don't need the update discs. 23:26:16 Or the alternative desktop environments. 23:26:21 I actually think it's good, but only if you skip the fillers because the fillers really suck 23:32:28 I propose a project to create a portable, 8-bit MMU-less Unix clone. 23:32:40 What Linux and NetBSD did for everything else, we shall do for the 80s! 23:33:09 LUnix? Move over! 8-bit Atari? YOU'RE GONNA GET SOME FUCKIN' UNIX 23:33:20 BBC MICRO? No fuck that. 23:33:23 (Okay fine.) 23:35:56 Clearly it should be written in (C--)--, aka C -= 2. 23:36:31 Conveniently, C-= sort of looks like the Commodore logo. 23:40:58 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:41:46 Now I write a program GF-Magick to use METAFONT with ImageMagick. 23:42:05 Do you like red and green show on television? 23:55:35 -!- cheater00 has joined. 2010-11-06: 00:05:52 MMU-less units are the best! 00:06:06 zzo38: duct tape forever! 00:06:37 coppro: PUNCTUATION 00:06:39 nooga: precisely! 00:06:50 elliott never 00:06:51 nooga: hey what was that computer you built? 8086? 00:06:53 code party is starting 00:06:55 coppro: ":", "!" 00:06:57 coppro: that was punctuation 00:07:01 coppro: so was "-" in agora email you are BAD 00:07:02 if you think i used punctuation you are committing treason 00:07:07 oh. 00:07:11 against the queen? 00:07:14 no against the computer 00:07:15 your friend 00:07:17 the computer 00:07:31 coppro: dude talk like this all the time, you're so much cooler 00:07:44 thank you citizen 00:08:15 elliott, got the first Debian s390 CD. 00:08:27 your lack of treason is appreciated by the computer 00:08:42 you might receive increased security clearance if you keep it up 00:08:43 Phantom_Hoover: Now get the other two. :P 00:08:52 coppro: punctuation is for FAGS 00:08:54 Yes, I'd inferred that. 00:09:05 elliott are they commie mutant traitor fags? 00:09:16 coppro: yes. also, bedwetting 00:09:38 elliott thank you for reporting the fags for treason you are now red security clearance 00:09:43 and are now a troubleshooter 00:11:19 nooga is ashamed of his creation 00:11:53 No, it rose against him as soon as you mentioned it. 00:18:13 Phantom_Hoover: lawl, debian is still on firefox^Wiceweasel 3.5 00:18:33 I'm shocked and appalled. 00:22:09 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:30:40 -!- jcp has joined. 00:31:40 elliott: Why is testing on 3.5‽ 00:31:56 Came out several months before the freeze. 00:33:06 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:34:04 pikhq: Dunno. 00:35:09 Phantom_Hoover: You may have more fun with the MIPS port; qemu's MIPS emulator works, although it was better in 0.10 or whatever. 00:35:19 And besides, it's a Microsoft Jazz. 00:35:24 How can you resist such a platform? 00:35:47 elliott, S. 3. 9. 0. 00:36:27 pikhq: Do you support my portable 8-bit MMUless Unix project idea? Y/N 00:36:41 elliott: Y, but I don't want to work on it. :P 00:36:50 pikhq: But 6502 asm! Everyone loves that! 00:37:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:37:33 The S390 killed Phantom_Hoover. 00:38:37 pikhq: And hey, we get to use our OWN LANGUAGE! Because the C compilers are all heavily machine-specific and the like. :P 00:42:16 fizzie: Can VICE do a serial cable? 00:43:53 Hmm, Lunix can do Atari too. 00:55:02 INSTALLING DEBIAN ON CHIPAD 00:55:08 WOOOOO 00:58:00 Gregor: (1) Why did you buy that (2) Can I have it 00:58:33 1) A friend of mine bought it because he's an idiot, I bought it off of him for $50 because I'm an idiot, but only half as much an idiot as he is by pricE :P 00:58:40 2) If you buy it for at least $25 + shipping :P 00:59:23 Things you don't expect to see on a Commodore 64: "EXTRACTING CD.HTML (OK)" 00:59:29 X-D 01:01:41 Gregor: I swear, the developer of LUnix, upon thinking "I need to document my Commodore 64 Unix clone", thought immediately after, "in HTML". 01:02:00 Sounds about right. 01:02:07 elliott: 8088 01:02:13 i'm not ashamed 01:02:19 i was just afk ;p 01:02:33 nooga: It's 16-bit, you motherfucker. How can you pledge allegiance to the RETROMACHINES? 01:02:39 Gregor: So is it... any good? :P 01:02:47 Oh great, kernel panic. All that extraction for nothing. 01:02:51 Wait. 01:02:54 elliott: The problems are all really stupid problems. 01:02:56 I could have just put it into warp mode. 01:03:01 elliott: It's a bit slow, but quite usable if you don't do too much at once. 01:03:04 Gregor: That ... says nothing. 01:03:10 elliott: I'm continuing :P 01:03:16 Gregor: Is it resistive or capacitive? 01:03:27 Resistive, of course. We're talking about a $100 tablet here X-D 01:03:32 Gregor: BAH 01:03:36 Gregor: Stylus? :P 01:03:41 No? Finger. 01:03:51 Gregor: Please tell me it was a bitch to get Debian on. 01:04:02 LET ME FINISH TELLING ITS FLAWS GEEZE :P 01:04:04 Gregor: You see, it was on the Ubisurfer, and I just don't want an inferior experience. 01:04:10 OKAY OKAY OKAY 01:04:23 elliott: The real problems are: 1) The rotation sensor is pretty bad, it likes to hang in landscape mode, 2) IT HAS NO FREAKING OFF BUTTON X_X 01:04:33 Who needs an off button 01:04:39 I mean even a screen-off button. 01:04:40 Gregor: It seems, uh, rather low resolution :P 01:04:49 elliott: You don't even know what device I'm referring to :P 01:04:56 Gregor: http://www.maxconsole.net/showthread.php?152867-China-launches-Linux-based-Chi-pad 01:05:16 "Calibrating delay loop.. 0.37 BogoMIPS" 01:05:21 COMMODORE 64 REPRESENT 01:05:31 elliott: 1) No, that one's more expensive and better than the one I have :P 01:05:49 elliott: 2) For 7-inch, 800xwhatever isn't too bad. 01:06:02 Gregor: yours is *worse* than that? :D 01:06:07 Gregor: What RAM? 01:06:07 Yup 8-D 01:06:32 128MB DDR2 01:06:51 Gregor: Disk? 01:06:57 Also, how much is shipping to the UK from there? 01:07:02 I'm actually considering buying it from you :P 01:07:14 Because I, too, am an idiot. 01:07:23 I have no idea what the shipping would be. It has 1GB internal, I have a 2GB SD card I'd throw in :P 01:07:38 This screen is 800x480 btw. 01:07:52 Just a sec, I can link this actual device :P 01:08:20 * Sgeo should learn A*. What it is, how to use it 01:08:26 elliott: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.42071 01:08:45 elliott: Bizarrely, the feature list is all correct on that page. 01:09:48 Gregor: Wow, this looks beyond awful :P 01:09:56 IT'S BEYOND AWESOME(ly awful) 01:10:04 Gregor: Are you actually going to use it? 01:10:13 If I don't cruelly snatch it away. 01:10:33 Well, I bought it months ago, and I've only used it to surf the web in bed and now to see if I can install Debian on it :P 01:10:36 Gregor: I consider the device broken if it doesn't ship with whatever fucked up modified Android it came with, btw :P 01:10:54 GET YOUR RESET ... USB ... STICK ... 01:10:55 ... OUT 01:10:57 Uhhh, of course it ships with Android ... 01:11:06 Gregor: But you're putting Debian on. 01:11:07 Like a FIEND 01:11:17 I'm putting Debian on a chroot :P 01:11:27 Gregor: Oh. That's what I did with the Ubisurfer! 01:11:36 WELL THAR YA GO 01:11:43 Gregor: Dude, I'll totally get my Ubisurfer repaired (I, uh, bricked it) and we can TRADE. 01:11:47 I have an identical Debian install on my phone :P 01:11:59 Gregor: You give me your tablet, I give you a £129 (or in that region) ARM-based netbook! It has a KEYBOARD! 01:12:01 It runs ICEWM! 01:12:13 Gregor: And it comes with the worst browser in the world and no don't argue. 01:12:35 Gregor: It communicates, via GPRS, to one of their servers, which renders the page, with IE (yup, Windows-running IE farms), and sends back a compressed image of the result. 01:12:50 Gregor: Input fields and links are handled with something like an olde-style image map, I would assume. 01:12:58 Gregor: (It also comes with Firefox) 01:13:40 ... wow 01:15:12 I read most of TeX: The Program, already. 01:15:17 (Did you?) 01:15:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:15:36 elliott... why? 01:17:11 Sgeo: Because Firefox only works on Wi-Fi and this is meant to be FREE FOREVER. 01:17:15 Gregor: I know, right? 01:17:25 Gregor: How can you pass up the chance to get a hold of it? 01:17:37 Weird definition of polynomial time: It has an nth derivative that = 0 01:17:49 Woooh, Debian installed! 01:17:55 Erm, "time for weird definition", not definition of "polynomial time" 01:17:58 Gregor: Oh, and wanna know the OS? Android? NO 01:18:01 * Gregor installs ... hmm ... icewm? 01:18:10 Gregor: It's what I like to call Bastebian. 01:18:14 Gregor: Bastard Debian. 01:18:39 Gregor: They took Debian, installed their software, hacked it up in numerous to work with their hardware, gave it a /linuxrc-based bootloader, and then took out all of what makes Debian, Debian. 01:18:48 Gregor: This includes dpkg. 01:19:16 Gregor: What I am saying is: Dude, trade. 01:19:40 Why would Firefox only work with Wifi 01:19:47 That makes no sense whatsoever 01:19:58 Sgeo: Because the only other thing it has his GPRS. 01:20:03 Which is only to their IE-servers. 01:20:10 *has is 01:20:14 Gregor: TRADE Y/N 01:20:24 ....why only to their IE-servers? 01:20:36 Is it part of some weird agreement or something? 01:20:39 Because that's how they wanted it. 01:20:45 * Sgeo blibbers 01:21:01 STOP MAKING UP WORDS AND SOUNDING LIKE A CREATURE 01:24:01 pikhq: Wow, Debian GNU/Hurd is about as old as apt. 01:24:09 Gregor: You should install a tiling WM, just for the sheer insanity. 01:24:13 Gregor: (Note: You may want a mouse-based tiling WM) 01:24:20 Gregor: ((Note: Nobody's created one yet)) 01:25:15 I'm well aware of that. 01:25:18 Having searched for one before. 01:25:56 Gregor: Funny, because I have the perfect design for one, YOU SHOULD IMPLEMENT IT[shot] 01:28:25 WRITE IT IN COBOL 01:28:29 01:29:33 Does COBOL even have functions for that purpose? I think COBOL is only for common business computations. 01:32:06 DISPLAY TEXT-OUT 01:32:12 Is it just me, or is that missing a . 01:32:18 http://404i.com/cobol/basics.html 01:32:49 elliott: Huh, so it is. 01:33:01 elliott: It's weird to think that apt is actually relatively young. 01:33:08 pikhq: "relatively" 01:33:12 pikhq: Like mid-90s, no? :P 01:33:50 pikhq: Hmm, 1999. 01:33:59 elliott: Mere 10 years. 01:34:00 DSELECT AM I RIGHT 01:34:05 WOOOOOOOOOOO DSELECT 01:34:08 *God* dselect sucks. 01:34:40 $ sudo aptitude install dselect 01:34:41 oh yeah 01:35:53 http://404i.com/cobol/4div-c.html 01:35:59 This looks very... inflexible 01:36:16 I SHOULD KEEP CAPS-LOCK ON WHEN TALKING ABOUT COBOL, REALLY 01:36:22 Gregor: So are you up for a trade or not? :P 01:36:30 Gregor: This device is ONLY available inside the UK, I think. 01:36:33 Gregor: So, y'know, RARITY. 01:36:41 Yeah, no trade :P 01:37:12 WHY IS ZERO A KEYWORD? 01:37:15 Gregor: WHY NOT 01:37:25 elliott: What WM should I use? 01:37:33 Ice? 01:37:35 Gregor: dwm? Maybe not :P 01:37:42 Gregor: 9wm! 01:37:43 Gregor: Write your own WM, then 01:37:44 Go for 9wm. 01:37:45 I want something that's borderline-usable, but light :P 01:37:58 Gregor: 9wm, aewm, or wm2/wmx. 01:38:02 Sgeo: Maybe so you don't get mixed up with "O"? 01:38:03 Gregor: Those are your three (well, four) choices. 01:38:16 Gregor: wm2 would be nice with the widescreen. aewm would be like 9wm but with a title bar. 01:38:20 9wm would be hard core. 01:38:49 Gregor: Although 9wm and aewm are both heavily dependent on middle/right clicks. 01:38:53 So go for wm2/wmx. 01:39:07 Desktop-click menu, yes? 01:39:26 Hrm, no maximize button in wm{2,x}? 01:39:39 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to SGEO. 01:39:44 Gregor: None in wm2. Dunno about wmx. 01:39:45 * SGEO GIVES UP ON THIS PARTICULAR TUTORIAL 01:39:49 Gregor: They're, uh, opinionated. (wmx less so.) 01:40:00 Yeaaaaaaaaaaah so Ice then :P 01:40:10 Gregor: Wait. 01:40:26 There's a wait regardless, I'm still installing the X server. 01:40:26 Gregor: Ratpoison + a panel (fbpanel or whatever). 01:40:39 Ratpoison = keyboard-happy 01:40:44 Gregor: Because there's no real point having multiple windows at once on such a screen, and the panel lets you switch windows without using the keyboard. 01:40:48 Gregor: See the second part of my sentence :P 01:41:01 Since when does Ratpoison let you switch window w/o the keyboard? 01:41:05 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 01:41:21 Gregor: When you use a panel application...? 01:41:29 Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh 01:41:30 Derr :P 01:42:06 Gregor: jwm is a quite nice icewm-esque thing but its config file is xml so bleh. 01:42:26 Gregor: What state are you in? I'ma look up shipping :P 01:42:44 Instead of implementing TeX, I can implement "XeX", which can be different (it might not pass the TRIP test, it won't implement \outer and \long, etc) but can produce DVI output with identical meaning from TeX when typesetting a correct (no error) TeX document (with a modified Plain TeX format that changes things to support TeX files 01:42:50 http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/looking-job-security-try-cobol-426 01:42:54 elliott: Indiana 01:42:58 elliott: fbpanel + ratpoison = fail 01:43:02 such as default extension, and \outer and \long, and so on) 01:43:15 Gregor: Yeah, it probably just tries to focus, not raise... or ratpoison refuses to be coerced :P 01:44:09 Gregor: I have no idea how your country's postal system works. 01:44:22 Neither do I :P 01:44:36 Priority Mail® 01:44:36 International Flat Rate Envelope 01:44:36 9 1/2" x 12 1/2". 01:44:36 Maximum weight 4 pounds. 01:44:43 Gregor: Would it fit in that? :P 01:44:47 Gregor: What country? 01:44:47 Oh, wait, there's an EXPRESS one too. 01:44:49 That's not quite PRIORITY. 01:44:56 Is there a "slow" option? :P 01:45:10 elliott: Should, this isn't 4lbs. 01:45:19 Gregor: It'd fit into an envelope, then? 01:45:23 Gregor: What about the charger? 01:45:31 elliott: Just a small AC adapter, no problem. 01:45:41 Plasma Mobile is the third environment. It is targeted at smartphones and small tablet devices that are mainly used via touch input. It is still being developed with the first stable release expected to be due in 2011, although individual KDE applications may be released earlier as part of the porting effort to MeeGo. Preview releases of the Kontact applications and a document viewer based on KOffice are already available. 01:45:44 DUUDE INSTALL THIS :P 01:45:45 elliott: I fear that it would get smashed, but other than that :P 01:46:20 Gregor: What about 9 1/2" x 12 1/2"? 01:46:30 ... this is a 7" tablet. 01:46:30 Ooh wait never mind. 01:46:34 Priority Mail® International Flat Rate Envelope* [More info about Priority Mail® International Flat Rate Envelope*] 01:46:34 Maximum Value for Contents: $400.00 01:46:34 USPS Supplied Envelope: 9 1/2" x 12 1/2". 01:46:34 Maximum weight 4 pounds. 01:46:39 That's, like, way bigger than it needs to be :P 01:46:45 Gregor: $13.45 at post office, $12.78 online. 01:46:57 Gregor: Wait, surely that power adapter is US-only? :( 01:47:03 Err, yup 8-D 01:47:06 I'll just get an adapter or never charge it ever 01:48:00 Gregor: So as you'll clearly pay for the postage online, I can have that sweet piece of kit for $37.78. SWEET 01:48:09 (Equivalently, 27p) 01:48:24 Actually £23.34 but whatever :P 01:48:52 Plasma Tablet is a prototype implementation that combines elements from Plasma Netbook (notably its newspaper view) with elements from Plasma Mobile. 01:49:39 Gregor: ...so, uhh, is it any good at browsing the web? :-P 01:50:17 It's not too bad, actually. Scrolling on big pages can be sort of slow, but it's not so bad on the screen size. 01:50:24 Images usually look shitty :P 01:51:01 Gregor: Man, this thing has a slower CPU than new smartphones, a seemingly shittier-although-larger display compared to my iPhone, and a terrible touchscreen :P 01:51:11 Gregor: If we could put a dollar value on frustration... 01:51:16 ...this thing would cost a fuckton. I want it. 01:51:19 X-D 01:51:32 *MUCH slower 01:51:41 Gregor: Well, isn't it 500 mhz? 01:51:46 If not, HOLY SHIT IT HAS LOWER SPECS THAN THE UBISURFER. 01:51:49 Huh? No. 01:51:53 Gregor: ...X_X what is it 01:51:57 Dude, I linked you to it :P 01:52:03 Gregor: It quoted no CPU speed. 01:52:17 Yes it did. 01:52:30 Gregor: Relink :P 01:53:00 http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.42071 01:53:06 An impressive 350MHz 01:53:11 A true powerhouse. 01:53:36 Gregor: I... this is the worst thing, like, ever. 01:53:39 8-D 01:53:46 It's pretty entertaining though :P 01:54:03 Gregor: The iPad currently sounds like the greatest device to ever be birthed, listening to this. 01:54:10 X-d 01:54:11 *X-D 01:54:26 MAY STEVE JOB'S LOINS ENVELOP ME 01:54:29 Gregor: Please tell me it has Flash. 01:54:36 How could it? 01:54:39 Gregor: It would be hilarious to watch it choke on EVERY FLASH EVER. 01:55:07 Gregor: Dude dude dude 01:55:12 Gregor: QEMU + Windows XP 01:55:14 Gregor: DO IT. DO IT NOW 01:55:20 lawl 01:55:22 Let's not :P 01:55:27 Gregor: Okay then. WINDOWS CE 01:55:31 lawl 01:55:32 Let's not :P 01:55:37 Gregor: MAC OS X 01:55:43 lawl 01:55:44 Let's not :P 01:55:47 Gregor: GENTOO 01:56:27 elliott: Actually, most power adapters these days are going to be 120V/240V simply because it's cheaper than making two adapter circuits. Honestly. 01:56:37 pikhq: Yes but lack of child-saving safety prong,. 01:56:39 *prong. 01:56:54 elliott: You would need to purchase a socket adapter, yes. 01:57:08 THE CHILDREN 01:57:52 Gregor: NETBSD 01:57:53 brb 01:58:04 NETBRB 01:58:42 Isn't it annoying how many fucking sockets there are out there? 01:58:54 And volt/hertz combinations. 01:59:00 No, the more fucking-sockets the better chance of fucking. 02:00:14 * Gregor waits for pikhq to stop bashing his head into a wall. 02:00:30 Amusingly, the US is the only country using an international standard for their socket. 02:01:05 (the US socket was retroactively defined as *the* socket for 120v 60Hz power by the IEC, because we're the only people who insist on it.) 02:01:42 This is, however, another case of blaming America for having bad technology when it's really just because we had it first. 02:02:12 Gregor: I'm actually not calling it bad; it works pretty much as well as 240v 50Hz. 02:02:40 It hurts less when you lick wall sockets though. 02:02:40 Gregor: It's only annoying because it's *different*. 02:02:54 Gregor: Now Japan, on the other hand, that we can blame. 02:03:12 They use 100V power, 50Hz *or* 60Hz. 02:03:19 Japan and France. We can ALWAYS blame Japan and/or France. 02:03:32 Oh, France is unconditionally blamed. 02:08:32 would it be useless to release an OS X esolang interpreter? 02:18:03 COMPUTE DEMO-VAR = 2+2 02:22:35 * SGEO VAGUELY WONDERS WHAT STRING MANIPULATION IS LIKE IN COBOL 02:22:41 PROBABLY LIVING HELL 02:24:05 hMM 02:24:51 IT OCCURS TO ME THAT THE WORKING-STORAGE STUFF HELPS ENFORCE READABLE VARIABLE NAMES. IF YOU DON'T USE READABLE VARIABLE NAMES THERE, THE CODE BECOMES SO HOPELESSLY UNREADABLE NO ONE WOULD EVEN DREAM OF WRITING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE 02:26:33 OH, SO THAT'S WHY ZEROS EXIST (READING A GOOD TUTORIAL) 02:33:44 SGEO: No, people just wrote code that hideous. 02:33:44 Trust me. 02:34:55 Okay, now that's actually kinda annoying. US power is actually 120V/240V. Driers and ovens get 240V for their heating elements. 02:35:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:36:06 *sigh* 02:36:14 I should be given the power to replace all standards. 02:36:46 HMM, NUMERIC EDITED CANNOT BE MOVED INTO NUMERIC EDITED 02:36:52 ... 02:36:58 I swear Debian is faster than Android on this ... 02:37:17 IceWM = superfast :P 02:37:27 Gregor: Well, Android actually has a VM going. 02:37:49 true 02:40:36 ... 02:40:58 Okay, high-leg delta power distribution is really fucking clever. (the scheme that the US uses for power distribution) 02:41:24 I'D TRUST COBOL WITH CURRENCY WITH . THAN SOME MORON WRITING CODE IN JAVA MANIPULATING CURRENCY AS A FLOAT OR DOUBLE 02:41:32 It's got two AC hot lines and a single neutral line. The hot lines are half wavelength out of step. 02:41:59 SGEO likes COBOL; discuss his increasing stupidity as time increases. 02:42:06 The upshot is that if you use just the two hot lines, you get perfect AC of twice the voltage of each individual line. 02:42:15 So, 120V/240V power distribution. 02:43:00 I WOUDN'T USE IT FOR ANYTHING MORE COMPLICATED THAN SOME MATH AND SIMPLE FLAT-FILE MANIPULATION 02:43:46 elliott: To be fair, he's only appreciating its decimal floating point. Which is one of the few useful things it has. 02:45:26 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:46:46 * Gregor proceeds to install xterm 02:47:29 Gregor: Next, XChat! 02:47:32 Do it 02:47:36 Sure why not :P 02:48:43 Gregor: Also Firefox. Don't argue. 02:48:46 Gregor: Or better, Seamonkey. 02:49:36 Gregor: Also QEMU. 02:52:05 hMM 02:52:10 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:52:24 WHAT IF I WANT A CONDITION NAME THAT CHECKS SEVERAL VARIABLES? 02:53:13 -!- wareya has joined. 02:54:08 DEAR TUTORIAL: STOP IT WITH THE UNREADABLE POWERPOINT ANIMATIONS 02:57:37 WELL, THIS POWERPOINT VIEWER THINGY FOR WINDOWS 95 WORKS ON WINDOWS 7 02:58:42 SGEO: #cobol 03:05:28 elliott, ITYM #COBOL 03:05:43 night → 03:08:23 "Open subroutines. are useful because they allow a programmer to code a subroutine. without the formality or overhead involved in coding a Procedure or Function. 03:08:23 " 03:08:35 ..HOW IS THAT USEFUL? WHAT OVERHEAD/ 03:09:24 coppro: http://damnyouautocorrect.com/img/oh-poopy-autocorrect.jpg 03:11:10 comex: I have an excellent idea. 03:23:12 elliott: Yeesh, xchat has a crapload of dependencies X-D 03:23:24 Gregor: Yes :P 03:23:27 Gregor: Try KDE next! 03:23:33 Yeah, let's not. 03:23:50 Gregor: Okay, fine; thttpd. 03:23:55 "Hello from my TABLET!!!" 03:24:11 libmozjs2d 03:24:16 Well on my way to Firefox now! 03:24:39 I am not very good at the C code golf. To do good at the C code golf at Anarchy Golf, it is necessary to make assumptions about the machine, and those things! But some of the other ones I did a good job sometime 03:24:43 Gregor: I was joking, you moron :P Install Chromium. 03:24:58 elliott: libmozjs2d is (apparently) a dep of xchat. 03:25:05 SGEO: What does it mean "open subroutines"? 03:25:07 Gregor: ...interesting. 03:25:29 zzo38, execution can fall through to the next subroutine, depending on how you call the subroutin 03:25:52 Or if execution doesn't terminate by the time you reach it physically 03:26:47 SGEO: Do you mean like in machine code you might have a subroutine followed by the next one directly in memory, with no RETURN code in between? 03:27:06 Something like that, I think 03:27:34 Except in COBOL, one way of calling it ensures that it returns.. but if you don't terminate the program, the subroutine will be called again 03:27:43 And then the next one, without the return 03:27:44 Can you do that in any programming language other than assembly language? (If so, you have to have it omit prolog/epilog to make it working?) 03:28:00 FIRST-PARAGRAPH. 03:28:07 DISPLAY "FIRST". 03:28:26 Let me pastebin this actually 03:29:01 -!- calamari has joined. 03:31:40 http://ideone.com/i2WDC 03:32:12 So FIRST-PARA calls PERFORM SECOND-PARA, which performs the second paragraph and returns to the first 03:32:21 O, now I understand. 03:32:21 Then execution falls through to the second and third paragraphs 03:33:37 elliott: WTFWTFWTF 03:33:41 DEPENDENCIES FAIL 03:33:50 Gregor: X_X 03:33:54 Gregor: You're using armel right? 03:33:55 Not arm? 03:33:59 Yup 03:34:04 Nonono, you misunderstand. 03:34:08 Nothing is failing to install. 03:34:11 It's installing TOO MUCH. 03:34:11 Oh, you just don't like it 03:34:13 The thingy complained at me about missing the 7 spaces in front 03:34:15 :D 03:34:15 I've got iceweasel. 03:34:16 FOR XCHAT 03:34:19 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:34:22 Gregor: <3 03:34:27 Or maybe it would have been ok if I skipped the line numbers, but I didn't try it 03:34:30 Gregor: it probably depends on x-www-browser to open links 03:34:33 or at least recommends 03:34:41 I didn't install the recommends! 03:34:45 * SGEO tries it 03:34:48 Then again, I didn't pay any attention :P 03:35:43 No, that does not work 03:35:49 I need all those damn spaces 03:36:17 OK, after all that lunacy, I just need xvkbd. 03:37:09 Gregor: Tell me you're using apt? 03:37:16 You sound like you're doing it manually :P 03:37:21 "Linking and byte-compiling packages for runtime python2.6..." 03:37:24 Of course I'm using apt. 03:37:37 aptitude install xchat -> holy crap why do I have iceweasel 03:37:37 ^faq apt 03:37:42 hmm 03:37:43 ^help 03:37:47 NO FUNGOT 03:37:50 fizzie: HALP HALP PALHPALHPALHP[L[LD[RTJ 03:37:51 # 03:37:53 i am literally in seizures 03:38:49 !sh echo iojdfg 03:38:57 1034 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>++++++++>+++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>>+++.--.>>.<<<+.>>>+.<<<.>>>+++++.<<++++++++.<---------------------------------------.--------------------------.>>----.+++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++++.>--.----.<<----.<.>----.>>.<++++++++.<.>++.------.<<.>>+.>----.-------.+++++++++++++.---.<<<.>>>++.<<++++.<.>+.+++++++++.>--.<<.>+++++.>----------.---.<<.>>----.<+++.>>--------.<<----.----.--.--------.<.>>-------------------------------.++++.<<.>>+++++ 03:39:01 Gregor: what 03:39:17 ... 03:39:22 !sh echo racism 03:39:23 racism 03:39:28 !sh echo iojdfg 03:39:29 iojdfg 03:39:31 Gregor: what 03:39:38 !bf ++++++++++++[>++++++++>++++++++>+++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>>+++.--.>>.<<<+.>>>+.<<<.>>>+++++.<<++++++++.<---------------------------------------.--------------------------.>>----.+++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++++.>--.----.<<----.<.>----.>>.<++++++++.<.>++.------.<<.>>+.>----.-------.+++++++++++++.---.<<<.>>>++.<<++++.<.>+.+++++++++.>--.<<.>+++++.>----------.---.<<.>>----.<+++.>>--------.<<----.----.--.--------.<.>>-------------------------------. 03:39:38 ++++.<<.>>++++ 03:39:39 calamari: People always thank me for the awesome B 03:39:45 if that outputted iodfjg 03:39:47 *iojdfg 03:39:49 i would have lol'd 03:40:01 Gregor: I guess it decided to say it again :P 03:40:04 Oh goddddddd 03:40:17 EgoBot: You screwy! 03:40:41 elliott: Idea. Grey Mist icon set. 03:40:48 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:40:49 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:40:54 pikhq: Grey Mist icons = disable icons 03:41:02 -!- HackEgo has joined. 03:41:03 pikhq: I'm not actually using Grey Mist right now :P 03:41:05 -!- EgoBot has joined. 03:41:05 elliott: Not really. 03:41:07 -!- elliott has left (?). 03:41:09 -!- elliott has joined. 03:41:17 elliott: What *are* you using, if not Grey Mist? 03:41:26 pikhq: C... C... Clearlooks. 03:41:33 I... it's the default. 03:41:38 elliott: THE FEATURES, MAN, THE FEATURES. 03:41:40 Please don't hurt me. 03:41:40 elliott: HOW COULD YOU. 03:42:02 Also, a Grey Mist iconset would clearly be a very very minimal lineart icon set. 03:42:04 pikhq: IN MY DEFENCE I TOTALLY DON'T ENDORSE IT OK 03:42:11 pikhq: Also, agreed, get on it :P 03:42:45 Unlikely scenes: 03:42:46 sub'SQRT','134.77-' 03:43:47 OK, seriously what the fuck. 03:43:54 It installed both Python 2.6 and Python 2.5 03:43:57 Gregor: "Installing Cobol..." 03:44:00 FOR XCHAT 03:44:12 :D 03:44:21 Gregor: Probably one for XChat plugins and one for some other package it wants. 03:44:54 Probably. But still, WTF. 03:45:53 libogg0 03:45:55 WHY 03:46:06 (For FireWeaselFoxyIce of course, but still) 03:48:37 Gregor: Because it supports