00:00:09 * Sgeo digs up stuff from his past
00:00:10 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/S6pDQ.png
00:00:15 <Sgeo> Apparently this is OfficeSuite
00:00:22 <elliott_> * Sgeo digs up stuff from his past
00:00:41 <fizzie> You an probably use the first, third, fifth and so on megabytes, though.
00:01:19 <Sgeo> At some point, I will feel nostalgic about #esoteric
00:01:22 <fizzie> Or maybe zeroth, second and fourth; depending on how you number those.
00:01:23 <Sgeo> After #esoteric dies
00:01:55 <Sgeo> Or IRC channels may be longer lived than other communities
00:01:59 <Sgeo> That seems likely
00:02:09 <Sgeo> Will Freenode really be around forever?
00:02:33 <olsner> fizzie: or you can use all of them as long as you account for the mirroring :)
00:02:56 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
00:03:06 <fizzie> olsner: Yes, well, the addresses, sure; but not the physical megabytes.
00:04:54 <elliott_> "On most newer computers starting with the IBM PS/2, the chipset has a FAST A20 option that can quickly enable the A20 line. To enable A20 this way, there is no need for delay loops or polling, just 3 simple instructions."
00:04:59 <elliott_> THAT SOUNDS NICE NO I/O OK THX
00:05:06 <elliott_> "However, this is not supported everywhere and there is no reliable way to tell if it will have some effect or not on a given system. Even worse, on some systems, it may actually do something else like blanking the screen, so it should be used only after the BIOS has reported that FAST A20 is available. Code for systems lacking FAST A20 support is also needed, so relying only on this method is discouraged."
00:05:13 <elliott_> "Another way is to use the BIOS."
00:05:43 <Sgeo> Please tell me that you're researching history
00:05:54 <Sgeo> Actually, I have no idea what you're trying to do
00:06:45 <olsner> writing a bootloader *is* researching history
00:07:20 <olsner> it's actually something like an accelerated trip through all revisions of the x86 isa and bios api:s
00:08:22 <Sgeo> That's only if you want to support more than just your own machine
00:09:38 <olsner> most of the steps you need to do on any machine
00:10:22 <elliott_> cmp word [magic], word [MIRROR_MAGIC]
00:10:26 <elliott_> doesn't work, what a surprise!
00:10:43 <Sgeo> So why "all revisions"?
00:11:04 <elliott_> Sgeo: because it starts off in 16-bit real mode
00:11:15 <elliott_> and you use the bios to get shit done
00:11:24 <elliott_> then you do the, cough, fun dance to get into protected mode
00:11:24 <Sgeo> I never learned x86 stuff
00:11:32 <elliott_> you do the fun dance to get into long mode from there
00:11:50 <Sgeo> Anything sinful about abbreviating it to x64?
00:11:58 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
00:12:01 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
00:12:01 -!- elliott has joined.
00:12:27 <elliott> olsner: http://wiki.osdev.org/A20_Line#Testing_the_A20_line dear god this is long and ugly
00:12:29 <elliott> i don't have that kind of space
00:13:30 <elliott> olsner: maybe i'll just deal with the duplicated megabytes :D
00:13:33 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:13:59 <fizzie> You could do the A20 dance outside your bootloader.
00:14:10 <elliott> fizzie: after I get into protected mode???
00:14:18 <fizzie> Assuming reasonable-sized kernel, anyway.
00:14:43 <catseye> also VICE does not build out of the box on NetBSD because of a *syntax error*.
00:14:51 <fizzie> Yes, I don't see why not; except that then you don't really have the BIOS helping you.
00:15:26 <olsner> any of the A20 methods listed there (except for anything calling into bios) should work from protected mode afaict
00:16:37 <catseye> for (d = hid_start_parse(report, 1 << hid_input, id) {
00:17:14 <elliott> olsner: I'm enabling the A20 line with the BIOS.
00:17:17 <fizzie> All this low-level talk reminds me of this nice paper floating around on how to do really fast "software" routing tables with a clever (ab)use of the cache systems: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.35.45&rep=rep1&type=pdf
00:17:21 <elliott> Because the alternative is talking to the keyboard and I have am oral objection to that.
00:19:30 <elliott> 0x0F is "pure white on black", yeah?
00:19:43 -!- Jack has joined.
00:19:43 <elliott> that's how it appears here
00:19:53 <elliott> I now have a snazzy error message:
00:19:59 <elliott> boot <invert>A20?</invert>
00:20:09 <elliott> Jack: this channel is about esoteric programming languages
00:20:09 -!- Jack has changed nick to Guest20118.
00:20:16 -!- Guest20118 has changed nick to Jackoz.
00:21:06 <elliott> we get tons of people here thinking it's about that *other* type of esoterica.
00:21:17 <Jackoz> Ok, btw I know about that mate
00:21:31 <Jackoz> actually I'm developing an esoteric language
00:21:33 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/WjGPH.png
00:21:38 <Sgeo> Worst. UI. Ever
00:21:45 <Jackoz> that's why I joined this channel, shortly I'll need some feedback :D
00:21:56 <Sgeo> Suppose I want to move stuf from 200N 200E to 323S 370E
00:22:02 <elliott> prepare the "your language sucks" cannons, men!
00:22:10 <Sgeo> I put the old location in "Rotate Old Prop Around"
00:22:19 <Sgeo> I put the new location in "Offset Values"
00:22:35 <Sgeo> Except for Height offset, which is the difference in heights
00:22:38 <Sgeo> I wish I was joking
00:22:58 <Jackoz> actually the only real problem is that it is stack based, but I feel it is not enough
00:23:08 <elliott> Jackoz: we're actually nice! on occasion.
00:23:09 <elliott> fizzie: Int 15/AX=2402h - SYSTEM - later PS/2s - GET A20 GATE STATUS
00:23:14 <elliott> fizzie: See, I can just use the BIOS for everything!
00:23:21 <Jackoz> but having a normal "variable declaration" language seemed too overkill
00:23:34 <Jackoz> I have to find something in the middle, so maybe I can get some inspiration here
00:23:39 <elliott> "not enough" is always almost a bad impulse, keeping things simple and pure is what leads to a gem of a language
00:23:44 <Sgeo> I'm having an affair with a stack based language
00:23:46 <elliott> but i'm interested, so go on
00:23:54 <elliott> Jackoz: Sgeo is our friendly channel bot
00:24:28 <Sgeo> channel bot write in Factor for great justice
00:24:52 <Sgeo> ^^too coherent for a fungot-like bot
00:25:06 <Sgeo> Hey, fungot doesn't detect on fungot-
00:25:07 <fungot> Sgeo: using the odd syntax for one
00:25:21 <fungot> Sgeo: toi ei oo fnord ja kanava fnord? l)
00:25:29 <elliott> Jackoz: a bot with a tendency to call the other bots.
00:25:32 <Jackoz> elliott: I'm trying to keep it fully functional with powerful but obscure operators, but this implies having to manipulate the stack a lot
00:25:40 <fizzie> elliott: "later PS/2s" -- surely you're not going to limit yourself on such!
00:25:44 <elliott> stack manipulation is fun, but ok :)
00:25:51 <Sgeo> Just to clarify, I'm not actually a bot
00:26:00 <Sgeo> Well, maybe a nostalgia-bot
00:26:04 <elliott> Jackoz: he's also wired to say he's not a bot whenever his botness is mentioned :)
00:26:19 <elliott> fizzie: They're technically "optional", but the amount that I care is zero. :P
00:26:26 <Jackoz> Sgeo: do some goole searches for me!
00:26:52 <Sgeo> There's no way I'm actually failing a Turing-test, am I?
00:27:16 <elliott> What we have learned here: Sgeo truly is indistinguishable from a simple computer program.
00:27:30 <elliott> Or, y'know, [some less cynical conclusion about the way people react to other people when they have assumptions].
00:27:42 <fizzie> Sgeo: The fungot-not-replying thing was probably that one occasional bug it has that I haven't managed to catch.
00:27:42 <fungot> fizzie: i don't need that much range anyway.
00:27:45 <Jackoz> elliott: just to give you an idea http://jacoposantoni.com/impossible/operators (but many operators aren't documented there yet)
00:27:57 <Sgeo> testing. fungot-like. testing
00:27:57 <fungot> Sgeo: yes, i'm just trying to understand syntax-case. so i'll be here tomorrow for a response on c.l.s
00:28:09 <fizzie> (And apparently 'e doesn't think it's worth fixing anyway.)
00:28:22 <elliott> gotta be a simpler way of writing that
00:29:01 <fizzie> syntax-case is a tricky Sceme macro thing.
00:29:03 <elliott> Jackoz: just so you know, trash is usually called "drop"
00:29:24 <elliott> Jackoz: this is a good language
00:29:34 <Jackoz> elliott: thanks, I'll take it into account :)
00:29:41 <Jackoz> elliott: that's why I joined here
00:29:44 <elliott> Jackoz: you should see some of the first esolangs people come up with :)
00:30:38 <Sgeo> elliott, it's impolite to make someone laugh at food-time
00:30:41 <Jackoz> elliott: I was thinking about having many stacks with a default behaviour that is usually good without any additional thought from the developer but I wasn't unable to come up with anything yet
00:30:43 <Sgeo> I could be dead thanks to you
00:31:01 <elliott> Sgeo: surely you're a bot now
00:31:20 <elliott> boot sector is 168 bytes, that's over a *fifth* of the maximum!
00:31:28 <Jackoz> this damn bot, it needs some fixes
00:31:39 <elliott> In fact, it's basically a third.
00:31:57 <Sgeo> Who said I have to give the results back to you? *ponders* I don't think you want the results
00:32:41 <elliott> fizzie: You! Tell me why my segments go all strange after going into protected mode.
00:34:41 <elliott> Because video memory is 0xB8000 on the other side of the divide, not 0xB800.
00:35:16 <elliott> Now it works in qemu but not bochs -- which is *never* a good sign.
00:37:15 <Sgeo> ...how does that happen?
00:38:48 <elliott> Because bochs is anal and slow and qemu is lax and fast.
00:39:25 <elliott> 00134663903e[CPU0 ] interrupt(): gate descriptor is not valid sys seg (vector=0x0d)
00:39:25 <elliott> 00134663903e[CPU0 ] interrupt(): gate descriptor is not valid sys seg (vector=0x08)
00:39:37 <elliott> 00134663903e[CPU0 ] interrupt(): gate descriptor is not valid sys seg (vector=0x08)
00:39:45 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:40:13 <olsner> something's causing an interrupt, and you probably haven't set up an interrupt descriptor yet
00:41:19 <elliott> I set up idtr using yours (dw 0 dd 0)
00:41:26 <elliott> olsner: is it triggering despite that or something?
00:41:28 <elliott> and i have to set up more?
00:41:57 <olsner> you don't have to set up more as long as you have interrupts disabled and don't do anything wrong :)
00:42:10 <elliott> olsner: clearly I do, because it happens anyway :)
00:42:28 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that I have a record of my Opera usage
00:42:35 <olsner> elliott: you just have to stop doing something wrong that causes the interrupts
00:42:42 <Sgeo> So if I'm ever tempted to try Opera again, say in a few years...
00:43:03 <olsner> elliott: did you disable interrupts?
00:43:34 <elliott> olsner: i should figure out how!
00:43:54 <Sgeo> I shouuld learn how this stuff works
00:44:00 <fizzie> That looks like a pretty small IDT.
00:44:04 <Sgeo> Especially if I want to build a computer at some point
00:44:22 <elliott> Sgeo: all of this is utterly irrelevant to the trivial "stick a few components together in a case".
00:44:32 <Sgeo> I meant in virtual worlds
00:44:46 <Sgeo> I know how to stick components in the real world together
00:45:02 <fizzie> The first few (19) entries of the idt can be invoked by processor-generated exceptions.
00:45:25 <Sgeo> You're not giving me advice, you're saying that I'm being typical me
00:45:33 <fizzie> vector=0x0d there is a general protection fault.
00:45:35 <Sgeo> You are typically typical you
00:45:43 <elliott> fizzie: Well that's not good.
00:45:47 <fizzie> And vector=0x08 is a double fault.
00:45:52 <elliott> mov word [0xB8000+ebx+2], 0x0F21
00:45:57 <elliott> What's so protection-faulty about that?
00:47:17 <fizzie> Have you reloaded your ds after the jump to protected mode? If ds was zero before, I would assume it still has that 64k limit. But really, I haven't done this before: ask oelsner.
00:47:50 <elliott> push DATA_SEGMENT pop ds works just fine.
00:48:46 <fizzie> Ommina sleep now, though; good luck with protecting your modes.
00:49:14 <elliott> fizzie: catseye: olsner: BOOTLOADER COMPLETE
00:49:19 <elliott> And it's 200 bytes exactly.
00:49:32 <elliott> That includes the "jmp KERNEL_SEGMENT:0" at the very end that I'm not sure will work entirely properly here.
00:49:41 <elliott> olsner: I should probably reset all the registers like you do.
00:50:23 <elliott> But still, 200 bytes to read the kernel from a floppy disk, giving diagnostics along the way, enable the A20 line (giving "boot? <inverted>A20</inverted>" if it doesn't work), jump into protected mode and jump to my kernel.
00:50:32 <olsner> elliott: yes, having all of them point to a proper 32-bit data segment is useful
00:58:29 -!- FireFly|n900 has joined.
00:59:18 <FireFly|n900> Golf a BF infinite loop code fragment that can be inserted in any valid brainfuck program
01:02:34 -!- FIQ has joined.
01:04:23 * Sgeo wonders if he can find his Haskell BF interpreter
01:05:33 <pikhq> FireFly|n900: Define the Brainfuck.
01:07:51 <Jackoz> in any case you should be able to wrote a BF interpreted in any language in just a couple of minutes
01:08:17 <pikhq> Try writing one in Malbolge.
01:08:31 <pikhq> (if you can, you win all the Internet points)
01:08:34 <Jackoz> I was excluding esoteric languages actually
01:08:38 <FIQ> brb write one in MSL :D
01:08:46 <pikhq> There's non-esoteric sub-Turing languages.
01:09:04 * Sgeo was about to o.O, but SQL would be one, right?
01:09:19 <Sgeo> Oh, and "non-programming" languages like HTML
01:09:20 <pikhq> SQL is indeed one.
01:09:21 <Jackoz> it depends on which extensions of SQL are available
01:09:30 <Jackoz> HTML is not a programming language
01:09:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: HTML is still a language, though.
01:09:34 <Jackoz> it's a markup language
01:09:43 <pikhq> Yup, for Hyper Text.
01:10:06 <Sgeo> English would count as TC, right?
01:10:26 <Sgeo> Are there any non-TC natural languages/
01:10:42 <Jackoz> you can easily define a corrispondence between a turing complete language and the english language, providing the right semantics
01:11:15 <Ilari> Also, I don't think it would be easy to write BF interpretter in any esolang I have designed (I actually have more than that Pointer-B mess...)
01:11:43 <Sgeo> Is Ancient Egyptian TC?
01:12:20 <Jackoz> Sgeo: are you assuming the semantics as they intended it?
01:12:57 <Jackoz> in any case Egyptians didn't have any 0 concept
01:13:04 <catseye> Sgeo: I think we can safely say "yes" to that
01:13:41 <Jackoz> I'm not sure that hieroglyps are a TC language
01:13:51 <Jackoz> at least not using their original semantics
01:14:10 <pikhq> Jackoz: Hieroglyphs were an orthography for a language.
01:14:15 <catseye> Jackoz: I would be *extremely* surprised if they did not have a concept for "nothing"
01:14:33 <catseye> actually make that *****extremely*****
01:14:38 * Sgeo was thinking "off", but just realized how riduculous that was
01:14:38 <Jackoz> pikhq: it's much more than that
01:14:50 <Sgeo> riduuuuuuuculous
01:15:06 <Jackoz> pikhq: hieroglyps are far more esoteric as normal languages since they were used either to express words eithers as just word fragments
01:15:28 <Sgeo> My English parser broke.
01:16:09 <Jackoz> sorry, english is not my mother language and I'm watching a movie so my attention is partially here
01:16:12 <pikhq> My English lexer *also* broke.
01:16:31 <pikhq> And my Japanese lexer sees funny squiggles.
01:16:32 <Jackoz> in any case you shouldn't have reached parsing phase, you should have stopped before.
01:16:57 <pikhq> Jackoz: English speakers have highly accepting lexers.
01:17:55 * Sgeo now ponders where the term "lexing" came from
01:17:55 <Jackoz> catseye: they had the concept of zero intended as perfection or completion but it wasn't, strictly talking, a numeral concept
01:18:42 <catseye> Jackoz: You don't need numerals to build a Turing Machine, though.
01:19:04 <Jackoz> catseye: no, but I think you need the concept of zero intended as zero :)
01:19:23 <Sgeo> Might the concept of words be sufficient?
01:19:37 <Jackoz> this is something somewhat trivial for us, we should ask an ancient Egyptian
01:20:01 <pikhq> Jackoz: No, you don't even need that.
01:20:07 <Sgeo> I'll just take Apophis and hand him over to the Tok'ra
01:20:14 <Sgeo> Then we can ask his host!
01:20:15 <catseye> I also wonder if "I have no money" in Ancient Egyptian was regarded as a state of perfection or completion :)
01:20:44 <Sgeo> [spoiler] but whatever
01:20:46 <pikhq> Jackoz: One could just as well have a Turing machine with an alphabet consisting of 日 and 本 instead of 0 and 1.
01:20:58 <pikhq> Doesn't even matter what the symbols *mean*.
01:23:00 <Jackoz> that's undoubtely true, but we are talking about using a language to see if it is TC
01:23:30 <Jackoz> actually you can build a TC language with any chosen alphabet, from that point of view every language is TC
01:24:07 <Jackoz> the problem in that case is that you should be able to build a partial function that describes the behaviour of the turing machine by using their already existing semantics
01:25:01 <Jackoz> without choosing an arbitrary one, just to prove its Turing completeness
01:26:33 <Jackoz> otherwise you are just proving that a language, which shares its alphabet with hieroglyps, is TC
01:26:43 <catseye> You only need a small number of verbs and nouns and adjectived to describe a Turing machine: left, right, change, check, etc. I would guess there has never been a human language in existence that has lacked these concepts, and words for them.
01:28:04 <Jackoz> that's why Turing completeness is a concept quite useful from a theoretical point of view, but really overused all around
01:28:15 * olsner stops fiddling with protected mode and goes to bed
01:28:43 <olsner> should extend my code so it can go into long mode too
01:29:32 <Jackoz> languages that are not TC simply aren't languages used to express computations. So the fact that SQL is not TC doesn't astonish me :)
01:30:33 <Jackoz> by the way this channel should be called #pedantic, you are really all ready to push newcomers in a corner ..
01:30:55 <FIQ> $bf(++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.) -> HelloWorld!
01:33:26 -!- iamcal has joined.
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01:34:23 <elliott> <catseye> that's frightening
01:34:26 <elliott> why? the size of the bootloader?
01:34:40 <elliott> <pikhq> There's non-esoteric sub-Turing languages.
01:34:57 <elliott> <Jackoz> by the way this channel should be called #pedantic, you are really all ready to push newcomers in a corner ..
01:35:13 <elliott> some of us -- cough pikhq -- have not learned that you're meant to start being nice once the newbie demonstrates a modicum of intelligence :)
01:36:47 <elliott> just kidding pikhq let's be friends.
01:37:00 <elliott> woo one of the spontaneous channel lulls
01:37:10 <elliott> Jackoz: I think it's meaningless to talk about natural languages being TC
01:37:15 <elliott> they're description languages
01:37:33 <elliott> "Is XML TC?" is a meaningless question, but XML-Prog-Lang-2000 can perfectly well be TC with its syntax in XML
01:37:46 <elliott> "Are S-Expressions TC?" is also meaningless, but Lisp is certainly Turing complete.
01:38:01 <elliott> Similarly, you could define a language out of valid English sentences, and it could be Turing complete.
01:38:10 <elliott> "Give me N gram(s) of sugar." could add N to the accumulator, etc.
01:38:31 <Jackoz> elliott: re, that was my point. I think that TC has its coolness but it is somewhat not so much significative
01:38:48 <Jackoz> it is just the best effort we've been able to do in the field of computational theory
01:39:26 <elliott> just because you can't apply the concept of turing-completeness to some things doesn't mean it's meaningless :)
01:39:33 <elliott> like saying colours aren't an ideal concept, because you can't ask what the colour of 3 is
01:40:17 <Jackoz> I don't say it is meaningless, I say that every language used to compute something is 99.9% TC
01:40:21 <catseye> elliott: I would disagree. There is a subset of English that is Turing-complete, even with the natural semantics of the sentences (no contrived meaning for what N grams of sugar is, e.g.)
01:40:39 <elliott> catseye: well sure, but it's not English that's TC
01:40:43 <elliott> just like the s-expression
01:40:46 <elliott> (define (brainfuck x) ...)
01:40:48 <elliott> doesn't prove S-expressions TC
01:40:56 <catseye> English is more than S-expressions, though.
01:41:02 <elliott> catseye: what that shows is that English Interpreter Deluxe is TC.
01:41:08 <elliott> but they're descriptive meanings
01:41:16 <elliott> you could describe a turing machine
01:41:29 <elliott> but you can't actually describe something that takes a Turing machine to compute
01:41:37 <elliott> (although you can describe a Turing machine that computes a certain thing)
01:41:59 <catseye> elliott: You are hopelessly confused on this point.
01:42:19 <elliott> catseye: That's an... interesting way to say "we disagree".
01:42:30 <Jackoz> just to avoid a fight, can I ask a side question?
01:42:51 <Jackoz> catseye the one of Cat's Eye Technologies?
01:43:09 <Jackoz> cool, my maximum respect to you :)
01:43:21 <Jackoz> since I remember your website from many years ago
01:43:28 <elliott> Don't believe the hype! catseye is actually a slimy, slithery snake of EVIL and LIES.
01:43:42 <catseye> elliott: If I had said "words are TC", our analogy with S-exps would make sense. But I said "English", not "words".
01:43:51 <Jackoz> yeah, then he tried to push me in a corner together with the others :(
01:44:12 <elliott> catseye: And I believe that English is a language describing (and is thus executable) objects in a sub-TC way.
01:44:25 <elliott> "The contents of the tape after executing the Brainfuck program '...'."
01:44:29 <Jackoz> I wonder why elitistic nerds are also misanthropic
01:44:35 <elliott> catseye: You may be right!
01:44:39 <elliott> Jackoz: it's IRC, get over it :P
01:44:51 <elliott> Jackoz: I saw no pushing into corners, just nitpicking and discussion
01:44:58 <elliott> and when the conversation is this academic, nitpicking is important
01:45:10 <elliott> <Sgeo> My English parser broke.
01:45:21 <Jackoz> yes, some years are passed from my last IRC visit :)
01:45:23 <elliott> this is Sgeo's wonderfully polite way of saying "please restate what you last said, I couldn't understand it"
01:45:36 <elliott> ironic, i'm usually the asshole here
01:45:52 <Jackoz> it's hard to speak about academic topics when english is not your mother language
01:45:56 <catseye> Jackoz: I'm sorry if it seemed like I was pushing you into a corner; certainly not my intent, I was just arguing my position.
01:45:58 <Jackoz> I'm really trying to do my best :)
01:46:02 <elliott> Jackoz: i swear we're nice and cuddly
01:46:20 <Jackoz> nah, I'm just joking. Actually I was just trying to make you feel a little bit guilty about something
01:46:57 * Sgeo didn't mean to be an asshole
01:46:58 <elliott> Jackoz: YEAH WELL I HATE YOU TOO
01:47:07 <elliott> now back to my bootloader -- the only true friend i have
01:47:19 <elliott> to talk over multiple lines?
01:47:30 <Jackoz> to change my stack language in something different
01:47:42 <Jackoz> yeah, sorry, as I stated I'm not used anymore to IRC :)
01:47:44 * elliott legitimately doesn't understand
01:48:02 <elliott> good heuristic: lines in #esoteric are not serious 99% of the time
01:48:23 <Jackoz> I mean that just having a stack needs too many extra operations
01:48:51 <Jackoz> so I thought that here some dark-uber-mega-nerd-misantrophic-guy
01:48:55 <Jackoz> could give me a better idea
01:50:00 <elliott> well it's a bit of a vague question :)
01:50:29 <Jackoz> was to avoid variable declaration
01:50:55 <Jackoz> but *guessing* having many stacks that are used by convention
01:50:55 <elliott> if every function has a fixed number of arguments
01:51:02 <elliott> then the program is just f g x y h x y z
01:51:16 <elliott> then that's f(g(x,y),h(x,y),z)
01:51:29 <Jackoz> ok, now assume that many builtin instructions
01:51:37 <Jackoz> can work on different parameters according to the stack
01:51:46 <Jackoz> (either number of parameters, either types)
01:52:09 <Jackoz> computes the floor function if it finds a float onto the stack
01:52:18 <Jackoz> while it works like OCaml iter (or each)
01:52:27 <Jackoz> if it finds a collection and a lambda
01:52:27 <coppro> oh god this language looks awesome
01:52:54 <Jackoz> 2.2 .> will leave 2.0 onto the stack
01:53:05 <Jackoz> {1,2,3,4}[^].> will print 1 2 3 4
01:53:35 <elliott> Jackoz: so, function overloading except on a stack basically.
01:53:52 <Jackoz> this can be good but a little bit weak in certain situations
01:53:54 <elliott> just not sure what your question is
01:54:07 <Jackoz> my question was about not using a stack but something different :)
01:54:17 <Jackoz> maybe multiple stacks that are filled accordingly to the types?
01:54:26 <elliott> so each lambda goes on the lambda stack?
01:54:28 <Jackoz> I really don't know, I just thought that the stack was not enough
01:54:46 <Jackoz> actually there is a lambda stack, but it is used to track execution
01:55:09 <Jackoz> yes, the good old activation record
01:55:14 <elliott> Jackoz: general advice - keep it simple. your language looks interesting as it is
01:55:24 <elliott> ok, it's not *hugely* esoteric, but it's definitely more esoteric than most languages
01:55:45 <Jackoz> so your personal advice is to keep it this way?
01:55:57 <elliott> personally, yes; but if you hit on something interesting, don't let me stop you :)
01:56:42 <Jackoz> I could implement a fuzzy rule
01:56:55 <Jackoz> that tries to execute the right implementation of the operator
01:56:58 <elliott> coppro: you want nothing more than to read my bootloader, right?
01:57:01 <Jackoz> according to what it actually finds on the stack
01:57:12 <elliott> Jackoz: well that's not fuzzy that's just function overloading isn't it? :)
01:57:47 <Jackoz> then I was thinking about
01:57:57 <Jackoz> not having to pick values from the stack, or rotate them
01:58:19 <coppro> no, this language must have only one stack
01:58:22 <Jackoz> like something that is able to guess the correct operation not caring about order of parameters
01:58:24 <elliott> coppro: http://sprunge.us/UfHO boot.s!
01:58:28 <coppro> it should have an 'evaluation stack'
01:58:32 <elliott> Jackoz: coppro is now in charge of your language :)
01:58:53 <coppro> one for values/functions, one for evaluations
01:58:56 <Jackoz> don't want to be invasive, just to get some ideas
01:59:14 <Jackoz> just by submerging you with questions
01:59:28 <coppro> if we get tired/annoyed we'll just not answer
01:59:33 <elliott> nothing could ever match Sgeo's questioning power
01:59:47 <elliott> mostly because he doesn't shut up if we don't
01:59:48 <coppro> very little matches this channel's noise:signal ration
02:00:09 <Jackoz> you just need a Sgeo-pass filter
02:02:11 <coppro> Jackoz: I need to read logs and stop commenting things I don't understand in the slightest
02:02:30 <Jackoz> coppro: don't worry, I like your good intents
02:02:46 <Jackoz> which could be a good way to test the expressiveness of the language?
02:03:08 <Jackoz> trying to implement things as project euler challenges?
02:03:20 <elliott> Jackoz: it's esoteric, it's not meant to be expressive! well ok that's not true but still
02:03:24 <elliott> Jackoz: implement a brainfuck interpreter
02:03:36 <Jackoz> I was already trying it
02:03:44 <Jackoz> but the use of the stack was really tough :)
02:03:52 <Jackoz> that's why I came here
02:04:04 <coppro> it would be easier to help with a specification
02:04:16 <Jackoz> {:}#y{>}#z{'>:[:1+:],'<:[:1-:],'+:[%;3$>1+3$:<%%],'-:[%;3$>1-3&:<%%],'.:[2$2$>^^]}#x(:16:)0 0"+[>,]<-[+.<-]";0 0%[;'[= [,:1+:][']= [@y:>>% %4$% %<<,<<][1+]??]??]e@y^^ [@x:>>!]e
02:04:23 <Jackoz> this is how much far I gone
02:04:25 <coppro> but now I realize that what I was thinking is not what you are thinking
02:04:30 <elliott> coppro: there's a function reference :P
02:04:40 <Jackoz> that function reference is really old :(
02:04:43 <coppro> but now I have an excellent idea for a language
02:05:17 <Jackoz> coppro: don't steal my ideas! :)
02:05:53 <coppro> based on your small code samples, it's RPN, right?
02:06:52 <coppro> yeah; I want a bracketless functional PN language
02:07:00 <elliott> coppro: I already mentioned that...
02:07:04 <elliott> coppro: And REBOL already did that.
02:07:09 <elliott> coppro: And Logo already did that.
02:07:14 <coppro> elliott: I know you mentioned it
02:07:15 <Jackoz> ok, this could give a better view: http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/9518/operators.png
02:07:29 <Jackoz> but many of these instructions can work with different parameters too
02:07:40 <coppro> and REBOL has brackets
02:07:47 <elliott> Jackoz: Is that an excel spreadsheet?
02:07:51 <elliott> coppro: yes, but it doesn't need them
02:07:57 <elliott> coppro: pure functions can be just
02:08:10 <elliott> coppro: and logo has no brackets... well, it has [], but that's just lambda
02:08:12 <Jackoz> after trying to keep consistency directly in source code
02:08:21 <elliott> coppro: so? you could easily get rid of lambda
02:08:26 <Jackoz> I had to find a simpler way, since many things were subjected to change
02:08:40 <elliott> lambda cons :a cons :b nil
02:08:51 <coppro> that would require brackets for any sane implementation
02:09:00 <elliott> lambda cons :a cons :b nil cons :display cons :a nil
02:09:03 <Sgeo> Aren't stack languages bracketless RPN?
02:09:08 <elliott> (lambda (a b) (display a))
02:09:12 <elliott> coppro: i meant list as in a list object
02:09:18 <coppro> Sgeo: yes, which is considerably easier than bracketless PN
02:09:44 <coppro> Jackoz: what's the real issue?
02:09:51 <elliott> RPN languages with lambda have [] too
02:10:06 <Jackoz> coppro: I tried to explain it in my words but with no success :/
02:10:07 <coppro> elliott: lies. I will show you the evility of my language
02:10:47 <Jackoz> I was wondering if something what is not just a stack but that doesn't work by variable declarations too exists
02:11:12 <elliott> Jackoz: here is what i think you want to say
02:11:20 <elliott> "Are there languages which are neither concatenative or imperative?"
02:11:26 <Jackoz> I mean that variable declaration is verbose
02:11:36 <elliott> Jackoz: lambda calculus :)
02:11:57 <Jackoz> while using just a stack is verbose too, since you then need to manipulate it very often inside the code
02:12:15 <catseye> coppro: sally has no brackets. no proper lambdas, either, but it would be a straightforward addition
02:12:18 <Jackoz> so I would like to have a computational model which works without having to do explicitly any of two
02:12:36 <Jackoz> maybe it simply doesn't exist
02:14:15 <elliott> Jackoz: see the lambda calculus
02:15:02 <Jackoz> the real problem about λ-calculus is that it needs a more complex VM underlying it
02:15:38 <Jackoz> mmh I'll take a look, but I remember from university that it needs to care about bound variables, free variables and so on
02:15:50 <Jackoz> and having to declare parameters will bring back verbosity
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02:16:43 <Jackoz> (by the way I'm just guessing, this is the real first approach to an esoteric languages)
02:16:51 <Sgeo> I have found something too obscure for Fark1
02:16:52 <Sgeo> http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=5726773
02:17:17 <elliott> <Jackoz> the real problem about λ-calculus is that it needs a more complex VM underlying it
02:17:21 <elliott> only on imperative hardware
02:17:29 <elliott> lambda-calculus on the Reduceron would be a sinch
02:17:54 * Sgeo channels elliott
02:18:03 <Jackoz> I love the relativistic way you approach things
02:18:20 <Jackoz> in any case I'm not writing this language in an imperative language
02:18:25 <elliott> Jackoz: well if all we cared about was intel amd x86 windows linux... we'd be very boring. :)
02:18:29 <elliott> Jackoz: ocaml is imperative
02:18:40 <elliott> but ocaml functions can have any side effects they want
02:18:43 <Jackoz> yes, it's not pure functional
02:18:50 <Jackoz> but you can use it as a pure functional
02:18:56 <elliott> "impure functional" is a rather worthless concept academically :)
02:19:02 <elliott> perl counts as impure functional
02:19:33 <Jackoz> I actually skipped the course about functional languages years ago
02:19:44 <Jackoz> just because I was too young to feel their coolness
02:20:23 <Jackoz> so I admit my ignorance
02:20:35 <Jackoz> but I assert that OCaml is purer than perl from that point of view :)
02:20:52 <elliott> purER, sure, but just try and define the scale of purity mathematically >:)
02:21:18 <Jackoz> (purer is not correct in english?)
02:21:31 <elliott> i.e. "pur*er*, but not pure"
02:21:41 <elliott> "MORE pure" is equivalent emphasis
02:21:55 <elliott> catseye: aiee, you didn't tell me -- you can't read a whole floppy with one int 13h!
02:22:07 <elliott> catseye: you'd have to go through the heads and cylinders and stuff
02:22:07 <Jackoz> where are you from? (just to chitchat, but I have to ask it after some lines)
02:22:21 <elliott> catseye: i can only read 31 kilobytes as-is!
02:22:27 <catseye> elliott: that's because i didn't know that!
02:22:39 <Sgeo> Which is purer, OCaml or Factor?
02:22:46 <Sgeo> I guess it depends on what is meant by pure
02:22:49 <elliott> catseye: http://www.ctyme.com/intr/rb-0607.htm
02:22:53 <elliott> catseye: "CL = sector number 1-63 (bits 0-5)"
02:23:03 <Sgeo> Purely concatenative, in which Factor is obviously closer, or purely functional
02:23:06 <elliott> catseye: 63 * 512 bytes = 31.5 k
02:23:17 <Jackoz> Sgeo: the point is that you can't define a degree of pureness (or at least I think that was elliott's point
02:23:17 <catseye> elliott: so read a bunch of chunks in a loop
02:23:24 <elliott> catseye: oh i will once the kernel is big enough :D
02:23:38 <Jackoz> you can assert it empirically
02:23:39 <elliott> catseye: other things i'll do then: do the A20 line properly, rather than relying on the BIOS...
02:23:48 <elliott> catseye: say, how hard is it to talk to the floppy without the bios, any ideas?
02:25:06 <Jackoz> elliott: since you seem fond of this topic, which languages are pure functional but with performance comparable to OCaml? just for curiosity
02:25:29 <Jackoz> (this means compiled into native and strongly type inferred)
02:25:31 <elliott> Jackoz: I, uh, Haskell! If you write your code in a way that GHC serendipitously happens to like...
02:25:31 <catseye> elliott: i doubt you actually want to talk to a *floppy*, but... i don't think it's *super* hard, just messy
02:25:53 <elliott> catseye: mm. wait, surely befos reads from the floppy?
02:25:58 <elliott> via ide or something i guess though
02:26:06 <elliott> catseye: oh, right, you never cli
02:27:19 <Jackoz> elliott: I'm scared that the lack of imperative features can make simple things really complex sometimes
02:27:41 <elliott> Jackoz: if you code inside the IO monad in haskell, then it's "just" like an imperative language
02:27:58 <Jackoz> elliott: wait, this should make it impure too
02:28:40 <elliott> Jackoz: I'd try to explain, but to *really* explain why it doesn't make the language impure in any way requires a dumbed-down version of a category theory concept and I'm not in the mood for that :)
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02:29:10 <elliott> Jackoz: for any X you can find a tutorial explaining how monads are actually just like X :)
02:29:19 <elliott> Even burritos (http://blog.plover.com/prog/burritos.html)
02:29:32 <Jackoz> elliott: maybe I won't even understand you
02:29:54 <elliott> Jackoz: monads are actually really simple -- it's explaining them that's the hard thing
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02:30:15 <elliott> Jackoz: the best policy for a beginning haskeller is just to trust that the IO monad works :)
02:30:37 <Jackoz> elliott: faith is not something I'm used to rely upon :)
02:31:05 <elliott> Jackoz: when you wrote your first program, did you ask how on earth "print foo" put little dots representing foo on the screen, or did you just go "ok, that says 'foo'"? :)
02:31:26 <elliott> it *is* possible to fully understand monads before using them -- but impractical, and pointlessly difficult
02:31:30 <Jackoz> elliott: I actually did, but I was unable to answer my self :(
02:31:49 <Jackoz> elliott: this means that after OCaml I'll try Haskell, since functional programming really opened my mind
02:32:29 <elliott> Jackoz: It is a good idea.
02:32:31 <Jackoz> elliott: just a last question.. does Erlang worth trying?
02:32:59 <elliott> Jackoz: opinions are divided :)
02:33:03 <elliott> it has interesting things.
02:33:11 <elliott> i don't want to be the one to make that decision for you :)
02:34:07 <Jackoz> elliott: for your answering availability you just gained an alpha release of my language as soon as it's ready, now feel happy..
02:34:19 <elliott> Jackoz: I can barely contain my excitement.
02:34:31 <Jackoz> elliott: that is a good start
02:34:35 <elliott> Jackoz: you know what's cool? my OS doesn't boot!
02:34:50 <elliott> Jackoz: no, literally, MY os :)
02:35:07 <elliott> because writing an os is the best thing anyone can ever do apart from ....
02:35:12 * Sgeo is fully willing to attempt to describe why the IO monad is not impure
02:35:13 <elliott> resurrecting the dinosaurs
02:35:20 <Jackoz> elliott: writing a programming language is just second to that
02:35:21 <Sgeo> But elliott will yell at me
02:35:25 <elliott> Jackoz: please don't take up Sgeo on his offer; he is an excellent confuser :)
02:35:30 <Jackoz> (from my point of view)
02:36:10 <Sgeo> But it's so SIMPLE
02:36:19 <Jackoz> is it a bootloader problem or a OS problem?
02:36:25 * Sgeo feels like a burrito tutorial author
02:36:29 <Jackoz> just because you were talking about bootloaders so far
02:37:40 <elliott> Jackoz: bootloader, i think
02:37:50 <elliott> either my floppy assembly script isn't working, or my bootloader isn't actually jumping to the kernel
02:38:01 <elliott> ^@^@^@^@^@Uª^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@
02:38:04 <elliott> suspicious lack of my kernel there
02:38:26 * Sgeo just wants to blurt out what's on his mind
02:39:39 <Sgeo> Just making sure I don't embarrass myself by using an example function that doesn't actually exist
02:40:02 <elliott> dd: `kernel/kernel': cannot skip to specified offset
02:40:59 <elliott> not that that works, either :D
02:41:17 <elliott> @^@^@^@^@UªEVERYBODY PARTY!ôéêÿÿÿ^@^@^@
02:44:28 <Sgeo> My explanation appears to have the elliott seal of approval?
02:47:59 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Things that might seem impure, such as getChar function, don't actually do what they say. Instead, they return a description. getChar always returns the same description of the action of getting a character. You piece together descriptions to make a bigger description. Whatever main describes is what's done
02:54:09 <elliott> catseye: gah! my bootloader isn't loading correctly!
02:54:17 * Gregor clicks "Popular amongst people in their twenties" on AppBrain.
02:54:23 <Gregor> Damn it. People in their twenties are retards.
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02:55:58 <catseye> elliott: in the source of developing software, it is common that errors, or "bugs", are introduced. one of the jobs of the software developer is to locate and fix these bugs, a process called "debugging".
02:56:24 <elliott> catseye: no it's clearly the bioses fault
02:56:35 <elliott> now catseye -- fix my bios
02:56:40 * Sgeo is not a technophile
02:57:05 * Sgeo is also not funny
02:57:29 * catseye never knows what Sgeo is talking about half the time
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02:59:31 <catseye> but I *set* GTK_CFLAGS, you stupid configure script! don't tell me it's not set!
03:00:54 <elliott> Okay, the read is failing; even if the floppy is random, I just display zeroes.
03:03:24 <Sgeo> Aren't you using a VM?
03:04:08 <Sgeo> Oh. Maybe I should ask what read is failing? Is it a read your code is doing, or is the VM actually simulating faulty hardware now?
03:07:12 <elliott> ...okay, this is just inexplicable
03:07:18 <elliott> I'm following the interrupt spec perfectly.
03:08:35 <catseye> ok so apparently it was not smart enough to look for pkg-config *on my search path*, it had to be told where it was
03:09:08 <catseye> oh! and netbsd world built.
03:09:49 <elliott> catseye: including kernel?
03:11:00 <catseye> yes, but i may have to build it again; i need t check somehtin
03:11:09 <elliott> catseye: because if so DEBIAN YAY :p
03:11:52 <elliott> catseye: DO YOU TOTALLY REMEMBER THE SSH COMMAND (nothing is more important)
03:13:46 <elliott> catseye: ssh -L R 9292:localhost:22 cpressey@91.104.241.33
03:13:47 <catseye> i believe emulating linux 2.6 will require linux 2.6 shared libs; such things are not so convenient as to be in pkgsrc already
03:13:55 <elliott> catseye: it's in a _chroot_
03:14:00 <elliott> the chroot contains _all the linux libraries_ including glibc
03:14:08 <elliott> when you chroot, it looks for /lib/libc or whatever, the /bin/sh
03:14:12 <elliott> which is of course *inside the chroot*
03:15:18 <catseye> well, need to reboot to test new kernel
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03:18:23 * Sgeo is now accidentally spamming comex
03:19:42 <Sgeo|jEdit> For what it's worth, I hate this client
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03:30:23 <catseye> it claims to not have any file system modules compiled into the kernel
03:30:36 <catseye> thus could could not mount the, uh, filesystem
03:31:08 <catseye> also, the new kernel makes my speakers go "WEEP!" during boot now
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03:33:40 <catseye> all fs support is built as modules by default
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03:37:39 <elliott> catseye: don't you embed your fs in the kernel? SHEESH
03:38:00 * Sgeo ponders the limitations of any editor not written in Factor attempting to do syntax hilighting on Factor code
03:39:10 <elliott> Sgeo: just freakin' use FUEL
03:39:21 <elliott> not even jedit's author, uses it any more
03:39:25 <elliott> and that's the same as factor's author!
03:39:34 <elliott> he uses fuel like everyone else
03:40:01 <Sgeo> How well does emacs really run on Windows/
03:42:35 <Sgeo> Does the editor.emacs thingy know where to look on Windows?
03:42:48 <catseye> "PAL emulation" in VICE should be called "CRT emulation" -- as a North American I feel discriminated against by this
03:43:29 <elliott> catseye: it, presumably, only emulates the characteristics of a PAL C64 on a PAL TV
03:43:37 <elliott> Sgeo: you have to set it, just like on unix
03:43:40 <catseye> it makes it look like a tv!
03:44:12 <elliott> IM GONNA FUCK UP YOUR SHIT AND READ THE FUCKING KERNEL WHETHER YOU WANT ME TO OR NOT
03:45:42 <catseye> even in ntsc mode! which they seem to have improved slightly in this version
03:46:01 <elliott> catseye: why would you want to use ntsc mode
03:47:09 <catseye> ...............................for nostalgia!
03:47:36 <catseye> i tried Factor once and it defeated me
03:47:38 <elliott> catseye: but it looks exactly the same, more or less :P
03:48:11 <catseye> i tried Emacs like a dozen times an it always defeated me too
03:48:31 <elliott> For some reason the signature has to be written this way round!"
03:48:36 <elliott> what is it with morons writing tutorials?
03:49:51 <catseye> ok so i'm gonna check out this ophis thing
03:50:04 <elliott> catseye: the manual is pretty good
03:50:15 <elliott> catseye: http://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/ophis/manual/book1.html
03:50:42 <elliott> catseye: i don't mean read it :P
03:51:31 <elliott> "This tutorial is to show you how to load sectors from a floppy disk. Variations will be needed to get this code to work on most other disks."
03:53:30 <catseye> disks of varying floppiness
03:54:02 <catseye> ok so ophis can assemble my existing code RIGHT
03:55:13 <pikhq> elliott: Be nice? What's that?
03:55:58 <elliott> it just doesn't work! aaargh
03:56:03 <elliott> pikhq: WANNA DEBUG MY BOOTLOADER?
03:56:44 <Sgeo> Maybe I should write a bootloader at some point
03:57:03 <Sgeo> *everyone laughs at the thought of Sgeo doing something like that*
03:59:03 <catseye> ok ophis is decent. i hope he's improved label arith. and being able to produce a symbol map would be a nice feature. but, i can hack on it myself if i like
04:00:10 <catseye> Sgeo: it's not difficult. really.
04:00:25 <Sgeo> elliott certainly seems to be having trouble
04:00:42 <catseye> elliott is trying to make elephants dance in his bootloader.
04:00:53 <elliott> catseye: actually, my problem right now is loading sectors from the floppy
04:01:00 <elliott> catseye: i can enable the a20 line, i can go into protected mode, everything
04:01:03 <elliott> catseye: i just can't load the kernel
04:01:14 <catseye> you load the kernel *before* the otehr stuff, right?
04:01:23 <elliott> catseye: yes. well, i print "boo" first.
04:01:30 <elliott> also: reset the disk. but you're meant to do that
04:01:45 <catseye> and it was working before, from what i gather
04:03:06 <elliott> "The 6 segment registers are all loaded with a segment selector, which is an offset into either the GDT or the current LDT. A segment selector is only 16 bits long and looks like this:"
04:05:25 <elliott> hehehehehe "boob*o*o*" AHEM
04:05:34 <elliott> maturity elliott this is serious
04:07:50 <catseye> brb testing NEW new kernel
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04:13:35 <catseye> cannot exec /sbin/init: error 8
04:14:32 <catseye> You have no chance to survive make your time.
04:17:20 <elliott> catseye: end of the netbsd era eh?
04:19:07 <catseye> i apparently have to install more things somewhere else.
04:19:53 <catseye> i need a kernel module for executing ELF files.
04:20:56 <catseye> ok NOW i find http://www.netbsd.org/changes/changes-6.0.html
04:23:57 <Ilari> Error 8 is ENOEXEC.
04:24:24 <elliott> 00056902415e[CPU0 ] fetch_raw_descriptor: GDT: index (807) 100 > limit (17)
04:24:29 <elliott> Anyone know what that means?
04:25:29 <Ilari> You are trying to access GDT descriptor far above the limits.
04:26:09 <elliott> Ilari: That's the thing, though; I'm really not. :)
04:26:14 <elliott> Ilari: I think my kernel is still failing to load. *sigh*
04:26:28 <elliott> WHAT DO YOU WANT, INFERNAL HARDWARE?!
04:27:09 <Ilari> Limit 17 would mean it only has 3 entries (null, code and data)...
04:27:29 <elliott> Ilari: I think it's trying to run random memory since the kernel didn't load properly, or suchlike.
04:27:56 <Ilari> It seems like the descriptor its trying to access is 1024, 1025, 1026 or 1027...
04:28:29 <Ilari> 2048, 2049, 2050 or 2051.
04:29:07 <Ilari> Maybe you try to refer to 0x0008 (that would be code?) and get the bytes swapped for some reason?
04:29:43 <elliott> Ilari: The code is loaded at 0x8000.
04:30:06 <elliott> Ilari: The kernel, that is.
04:30:32 <elliott> I do this, but in protected mode.
04:30:41 <elliott> Maybe I should do jmp KERNEL_SEGMENT * 16?
04:30:42 <Ilari> Because trying to refer to segment 0x0800 (instead of 0x0008) would trigger just that kind of error...
04:30:52 <elliott> Ilari: Indeed, KERNEL_SEGMENT = 0x800.
04:32:15 <Ilari> If you are in pmode ring 0 with the likely GDT, the only valid segment to jump to is segment 8.
04:32:37 <elliott> Ilari: So what I need to do is... "jmp CODE_SEGMENT:0x8000", right?
04:32:54 <elliott> Ilari: Thanks; I'll try that.
04:33:29 <Ilari> You might need to initialize SS first so it validates after jump (0x0010?)
04:34:03 <Ilari> Well, that should work.
04:34:24 <elliott> qemu: fatal: Trying to execute code outside RAM or ROM at 0x000a0000
04:34:24 <elliott> EAX=00000000 EBX=0000ff31 ECX=00000000 EDX=00000500
04:34:24 <elliott> ESI=00000002 EDI=e900fed4 EBP=00000000 ESP=00006ef9
04:34:42 <Ilari> Hah. You jumped into VGA memory.
04:34:45 <elliott> 00042725627e[CPU0 ] write_virtual_checks(): no write access to seg
04:34:46 <elliott> 00042725627e[CPU0 ] interrupt(): vector must be within IDT table limits, IDT.limit = 0x0
04:34:46 <elliott> 00042725627e[CPU0 ] interrupt(): vector must be within IDT table limits, IDT.limit = 0x0
04:34:46 <elliott> 00042725627i[CPU0 ] CPU is in protected mode (active)
04:34:53 <elliott> I wonder how I managed that.
04:34:59 <elliott> I do set the segment register to vga memory in real mode.
04:35:05 <Ilari> DOSBox would lock up if you did that.
04:35:21 <elliott> ds was where i had vga memory, so
04:35:26 <elliott> mov word [0xB8000+ebx+2], 0x0F21
04:35:38 <elliott> that's the last time i reference vga memory in my program and as you can see...
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04:36:23 <Ilari> What instruction actually triggers that execution attempt from VGA memory?
04:36:37 <Ilari> The 'jmp CODE_SEGMENT:0x8000'?
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04:39:10 <elliott> Ilari: I'm not sure how to get bochs to tell me that :)
04:39:48 <elliott> Ilari: Hmm, I have replaced CODE_SEGMENT: with "push CODE_SEGMENT \ pop cs" earlier in the program.
04:39:52 <elliott> Then just "jmp (KERNEL_SEGMENT*16)" later.
04:39:56 <elliott> Same error, but that seems clear.
04:40:01 <Ilari> POP CS doesn't exist.
04:40:16 <elliott> Ilari: Are you sure? nasm assembles it happily.
04:40:43 <Ilari> At least on any x86 processor that supports protected mode.
04:40:53 <elliott> Ilari: Oh, looks like it assembles it into a hopeless tangle of things...
04:41:17 <Ilari> I don't think you can do that either...
04:41:22 <elliott> Ilari: Can you set CS at all?
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04:42:08 <catseye> NetBSD catseye 5.99.39 NetBSD 5.99.39 (CATSEYE) #0: Sun Oct 31 16:54:30 CDT 2010 catseye@catseye:/usr/obj/sys/arch/i386/compile/CATSEYE i386
04:42:21 <catseye> now to install the userland!
04:42:22 <Ilari> I think only far jump, far call, far return, interrupt, syscall or sysreturn can change CS.
04:42:28 <elliott> catseye: NO WAIT YOU SHOULD GIVE ME SSH FIRST >:)
04:42:43 <elliott> Ilari: Oh. Then CS is already correct :)
04:42:45 <elliott> jmp CODE_SEGMENT:dword other_side
04:43:31 <elliott> Ilari: I'm actually at a complete loss why it jumps into VGA memory...
04:44:04 <elliott> Ilari: KERNEL_SEGMENT is 0x800, so it's jumping to 0x8000.
04:44:11 <Ilari> And that's graphics VGA memory, not text VGA memory...
04:44:21 <elliott> Ilari: I still think the floppy might not be reading correctly.
04:44:24 <elliott> Wait, easy way to find out.
04:44:27 <catseye> *** Failed target: mkvarsyesno
04:44:42 <Ilari> Perhaps it runs off the end of kernel, there's only zeroes (AFAIK, that instruction can actually work) and then hits VGA graphics memory?
04:45:05 <elliott> Ilari: *Possibly* the kernel isn't even *there* and there's only zeroes.
04:45:14 <elliott> Ilari: It does pause a bit before crashing.
04:45:32 <elliott> Ilari: But I'm calling the BIOS perfectly, I've even carbon-copied catseye's code -- I have no idea why it isn't reading from floppy!
04:46:13 <Ilari> 00 00 is ADD [EAX], AL. With the segments the way they are, that works even with zero EAX...
04:46:31 <elliott> Ilari: Indeed, I just added this:.
04:46:36 <elliott> mov al, [KERNEL_SEGMENT*16]
04:46:36 <elliott> mov byte [0xB8000+ebx+4], al
04:46:36 <elliott> mov byte [0xB8000+ebx+5], 0x0F
04:46:36 <elliott> mov al, [(KERNEL_SEGMENT*16)+1]
04:46:36 <elliott> mov byte [0xB8000+ebx+6], al
04:46:36 <elliott> mov byte [0xB8000+ebx+7], 0x0F
04:46:44 <elliott> And it just says "boo" on my screen.
04:46:47 <elliott> i.e. i'm putting zeroes there.
04:47:09 <elliott> i.e. the kernel isn't getting loaded.
04:49:08 <catseye> elliott: did you post the code somewhere?
04:49:36 <elliott> catseye: Ilari: http://sprunge.us/MLOL
04:52:39 <catseye> i like how sprunge has put "LOL" in that url
04:55:55 <catseye> Appropriate for Oct 31 I suppose :)
04:56:16 <elliott> catseye: i don't even know HOW
04:56:24 <pikhq> Today has been a good day.
04:56:25 <elliott> catseye: if you look at my code, it all writes *after* the "boot!"
04:57:29 <Sasha> Well, I just got back from trick-or-treating
04:57:36 <Sasha> free candy is best candy
04:57:46 <catseye> "it all writes", you mean, the code after 'protect' does stuff? maybe "t!" is being erased
04:58:23 <pikhq> Sasha: Yeah, I'm eating the leftovers ATM.
04:58:40 <pikhq> (I did not buy the candy, for I live with my parents)
04:59:20 <Sasha> but I am 16 so I have an excuse
04:59:30 <catseye> but your push bx is commented out
04:59:41 <Sasha> What's you excuse, pikhq?
04:59:53 <elliott> catseye: push bx before "mov ah, 02h"
04:59:55 <pikhq> Sasha: 20 and go to school nearby.
05:00:04 <elliott> catseye: ok now it's just "boot!"
05:00:08 <elliott> catseye: with what are presumably zero bytes after it
05:00:11 <pikhq> Sasha: So, similar position except it'd be *possible* for me to move out.
05:00:20 <pikhq> Well, except that it's nearly impossible to find a job right now.
05:00:25 <Sasha> I want to move when I am of-age
05:00:27 <elliott> i'm 8 years old and own a flute that gives me a bedroom
05:00:36 <Sasha> even if I have to walk to Seattle
05:00:39 <elliott> sadly, reality is never quite as perfect.
05:01:00 <Sasha> that explains the pompous douchebaggery
05:01:02 <pikhq> I actually did move out. And reality is a bitch and a half.
05:01:28 <pikhq> Sasha: The pompous douchebaggery is just from knowing far better than most people.
05:01:40 <Sasha> thinking he knows far better
05:01:48 <elliott> Sasha: it's always interesting to see how many people just accept the pompous douchebaggery until "zomg he's $age_at_time" which suddenly offers an explanation for why i'm a pompous douchebag
05:01:57 <pikhq> Sasha: But, see, he does. :)
05:02:01 <elliott> which, of course, is just a rationalisation, but there you go...
05:02:04 <Sasha> See, I know more than elliott about lots of things. But, I'm not a douchebag.
05:02:14 <Sasha> elliott, I was a pompous douchebag at 15 too
05:02:18 <elliott> Sasha: no, but you are, evidently, incapable of rational thought
05:02:20 <elliott> <Sasha> elliott, I was a pompous douchebag at 15 too
05:02:25 <pikhq> Sasha: You're fucking 16.
05:02:27 <Sasha> and then serious depression kicked in
05:02:30 <elliott> this in no way lends evidence to the proposition that my pompous douchebaggery is due to my age
05:02:33 <pikhq> Sasha: People don't change that damned much in a year.
05:02:38 <Sasha> so I am too depressed to be a douchebag
05:02:40 <elliott> Everyone on the internet is depressed! Everyone on the internet has motherfuckin' autism!
05:02:50 <elliott> Everyone on the internet is so much deeper than all these sheep!
05:02:53 <pikhq> elliott: And every other possible disorder.
05:02:54 <Sasha> I'm diagnosed with clinical depression
05:03:03 <elliott> Everyone on the internet is fucking stupid and you too -- whoever is reading it, you too.
05:03:04 <Sasha> take pills and everything
05:03:52 <elliott> catseye: i think i blame jews for my bootloader
05:03:57 <elliott> it can't be that my code is wrong, absolutely not
05:04:18 <pikhq> elliott: Don't you have someone less offensive to blame?
05:04:34 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, right, Muslims!
05:04:35 <pikhq> elliott: Like that witchdoctor over there?
05:04:41 * pikhq points at nearest black man
05:04:51 <elliott> I blame society for my murders.
05:05:36 <catseye> hey, if there was no society, it wouldn't be murder, would it? let's move on.
05:05:48 <catseye> elliott: so now that your stack is no longer stupid
05:05:57 <elliott> catseye: still doesn't work at all
05:06:08 <catseye> you *don't* see the other stuff being printed?
05:06:20 <catseye> that you saw before. when the stack was stupid.
05:06:20 <elliott> Well, spaces, but they're zeroes.
05:06:33 <elliott> I have never seen anything because *it isn't being loaded*.
05:06:44 <elliott> Here's what's loaded right after the first sector, btw:
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05:07:37 <catseye> write the code to display what's been loaded, before you got into protmode.
05:07:58 <catseye> obv you have to write it in segmented form, so i didn't just say 'copy it to...'
05:08:15 <catseye> "segmented form"="real mode"
05:09:04 <elliott> catseye: i did that like three times :)
05:10:20 <catseye> elliott: i don't know if this is it but you don't set dl when you issue the reset interrupt
05:10:33 <catseye> movah, 00h; call code = reset
05:11:10 <catseye> god forbid you are resetting some OTHER drive.
05:11:30 <elliott> catseye: isn't dl initialised to current-drive???
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05:16:13 <catseye> i should de-OPTOMISE my bootblock and make it easier to understand, but the only other thing i can suggest for now is to double-check your sec, cyl, head computations
05:16:31 <catseye> i have a netbsd 5.999999 world now so i have to reboot to completely break my machine, you see
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05:19:19 <catseye> NetBSD 5.99.39 inna house!
05:25:11 <catseye> Bad local forwarding specification 'R'
05:25:26 <elliott> catseye: what command did you run
05:25:43 <catseye> ssh -L R 9292:localhost:22 cpressey@91.104.241.33
05:26:13 <elliott> I must have made mistake lol
05:27:26 <elliott> [1] Bad system call (core dumped) sudo chroot debian
05:31:14 <Sgeo> xkcd is starting to bore me
05:31:32 <Sgeo> Or at least, this one did
05:33:24 <elliott> Sgeo: up until now *xkcd did not bore you*?
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05:37:42 <Gregor> Europeans are ruining me.
05:38:06 <Gregor> Recently I've been counting thumb-first. I don't know why, and I can't stop myself. I've become so conscious of it that I'm even more incapable of stopping it.
05:38:14 <Gregor> The other day I said "queue" instead of "line"
05:38:39 <pikhq> The queue thing might just be bits getting to you.
05:38:43 <elliott> Gregor: ...what do americans normally count with?
05:38:56 <Gregor> elliott: Index-finger first, then to pinky, then thumb is #5
05:38:56 <coppro> elliott: index finger down to pinky, thumb last
05:39:05 <elliott> that is the most retarded thing i've ever heard
05:39:11 <Gregor> elliott: Which is also how Brits count, by the way :P
05:39:29 <elliott> probably it never occurred to me to do something so blatantly illogical
05:40:13 <pikhq> Peple count on fingers?
05:40:19 <catseye> Ilari: and what is error 79? :)
05:40:19 <elliott> Gregor: Just asked two friends, neither of them do that.
05:40:44 <elliott> Gregor: I think my "Brits" you might mean "Brits in the 18th century".
05:40:45 <Gregor> I can't find a Wikipedia article on this.
05:40:48 <Gregor> HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE.
05:40:58 <Gregor> elliott: Brits also use feet and miles btw.
05:41:11 <elliott> Gregor: Usually for height and road distances only.
05:41:15 <pikhq> elliott: The units should DIE IN A FIRE.
05:41:27 <pikhq> elliott: Along with the stone.
05:41:29 <elliott> pikhq: Y'know, they make perfect sense in base 12.
05:41:52 <pikhq> elliott: Tell that to the hand.
05:42:11 <Gregor> Damn it, SOMEWHERE there must be an article about this on Wikipedia!
05:43:09 <elliott> Gregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_counting
05:43:12 <Gregor> The human hand has five fingers [citation needed]
05:43:12 <elliott> Finger counting, or dactylonomy, is the art of counting along one's fingers. Though marginalized in modern societies by Arabic numerals, formerly different systems flourished in many cultures,[1][2] including educated methods far more sophisticated than the one-by-one finger count taught today in preschool education.
05:43:13 <elliott> Finger counting can also serve as a form of manual communication, particularly in marketplace trading and also in games such as morra.
05:43:13 <elliott> Finger counting is studied by ethnomathematics.
05:43:24 <elliott> Gregor: Ethno. Mathematics.
05:43:30 <Sasha> I count differently
05:43:46 <elliott> catseye: so have you figured it out yet :P
05:43:59 <Sasha> I use the fingercounting method used by American Sign Language
05:44:20 <Gregor> Sasha: That's even screwier than conventional American counting :P
05:44:29 <pikhq> Sasha: I find that very very weird for numbers larger than 10.
05:44:42 <Sasha> Or, I use Chisanbop
05:44:58 * pikhq has no valid excuse for not knowing ASL.
05:45:11 <catseye> I use thumb-as-5 to count up to 10 on one hand (but not usually)
05:45:19 <elliott> Gregor: oh my god, when i start with a fist and try and put my index finger up to count
05:45:22 <elliott> Gregor: my thumb automatically pops out
05:45:31 <elliott> it is SERIOUSLY hard to get the index finger out
05:45:37 <Gregor> elliott: Point instead of counting.
05:45:46 <elliott> Gregor: Is that what all Americans do :P
05:45:52 <pikhq> elliott: Do binary numerals instead.
05:46:00 <Gregor> Just training a poor Brit on being a good A'merkin!
05:46:02 <elliott> pikhq: Tried that once; really uncomfortable, impossible to understand.
05:46:05 <catseye> wait if you start with the humb, how do you do 4? i can't hold my pinky back like that!
05:46:08 <Sasha> I can count in binary on my fingers
05:46:15 <pikhq> elliott: Really simple to do.
05:46:29 <pikhq> elliott: Except that you flip someone off at 100.
05:46:29 <Gregor> catseye: ... do you use your thumb to hold your pinky while counting three?
05:46:36 <catseye> with thumb-last, you use the thumb to hold the pinky in, at 3!
05:46:43 <elliott> pikhq: Requires tons of finger movement though.
05:46:44 <Gregor> catseye: Pretty pathetic :P
05:46:50 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, well.
05:47:04 <pikhq> elliott: That's what 10000100 is for.
05:47:12 <Sasha> That's what humans are
05:47:37 <catseye> Gregor: I should show you my "4", it's very entertaining what with the half bent fingers and all.
05:47:55 <elliott> pikhq: but it's physically impossible to lift up like that!
05:47:58 <pikhq> catseye: We just hold the thumb in. So much easier.
05:48:05 <pikhq> elliott: ... Zero.
05:48:20 <pikhq> elliott: Oh. Misparsing.
05:48:27 <pikhq> elliott: 0 base 1000 is how I parsed it.
05:48:42 <pikhq> elliott: It's half-bent. Quite annoying.
05:49:03 <Sasha> If I am feeling like a twat, I convert all my answers to octal for my math class.
05:49:13 <elliott> Sasha: And then you don't just *feel* like a twat!
05:49:36 <Sasha> Instead of kicking puppies, I do that
05:49:43 <Sasha> it's my only release for anger
05:49:57 * Sasha is slowly dying on the inside
05:51:50 * pikhq shoots Sasha in the leg
05:51:53 <elliott> pikhq: Quater-imaginary finger counting.
05:51:57 <pikhq> Now you're slowly dying on the outside!
05:51:58 <Gregor> You could do so much worse than octal.
05:52:05 <elliott> Hmm, that would be difficult.
05:52:08 <elliott> Is there a binary equivalent?
05:52:09 <Gregor> Base-11 would be pretty mean.
05:52:20 <Sasha> Gregor: I like duodecimal
05:52:23 <Gregor> Base pi would be more difficult to do than it was worth :P
05:52:28 <elliott> Gregor: Base 9 is the worst for talking in.
05:52:31 <elliott> It's so close to making sense.
05:53:02 <Sasha> ooh, or sometimes I will use unal
05:53:15 <pikhq> Naaah, imaginary base.
05:53:21 <elliott> pikhq: Golden ratio finger counting.
05:53:32 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio_base
05:54:04 <Gregor> TIME FOR DUDLEY DO-RIGHT WOOH
05:54:21 <elliott> catseye: You can disconnect from my box now :P
05:55:06 <elliott> "Base √2 behaves in a very similar way to base 2 as all one has to do to convert a number from binary into base √2 is put a zero digit in between every binary digit; for example, 191110 = 111011101112 becomes 101010001010100010101√2 and 511810 = 10011111111102 becomes 1000001010101010101010100√2. This means that every integer can be expressed in base √2 without the need of a decimal point."
05:55:29 <elliott> pikhq: Sounds quite comfortable for hand-counting.
05:55:37 <pikhq> elliott: Gorgeous.
05:56:08 <elliott> pikhq: I suggest it be done right to left.
05:56:25 <elliott> That is, 1101| on hands where | is right edge of hands = 1011_sqrt(2)
05:56:49 <Sasha> I work binary on my fingers from right to left
05:57:01 <Sasha> the pinky on my right hand has a value of 1
05:57:17 <Sasha> and the pinky on my left, a value of 128
05:59:43 <catseye> bases are for the weak! i use pure numbers
06:00:23 <Sasha> you know what else is for the weak?
06:00:58 <elliott> catseye: SO DID YOU DEBUG MY CODE
06:01:47 <catseye> i've got it all figured out, man
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06:44:00 <elliott> "Did you just DETERMINE the capital of Spain?" --http://www.viruscomix.com/page490.html
06:44:15 <elliott> And with that -- and a broken boot sector, too -- I leave you.
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07:46:46 <myndzi> also: i never thought i'd meet another person who counts binary on their fingers, but then i realized what channel i'm in ;)
07:46:58 <myndzi> i use palms towards me though, so right thumb is LSB
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15:15:01 <Vorpal> why on earth is configuring which program should open a given file type so hard in gnome? There is a checkbox to change default when selecting "open with". Thats all. No place to remove apps from that list for example.
15:15:50 <Vorpal> I resorted to editing the underlying .ini-style config file
15:19:19 <Vorpal> Other somewhat related issue: wine likes to steal associations for stuff like *.jpg, *.txt and so on for the included wine-notepad, wine-browser and so on. And keeps adding them back even if you remove them. Disabling that took some work as well.
15:20:15 <Vorpal> Neither thing would be easy for a novice-user. Things like this are probably why we haven't yet seen the "year of the linux desktop". Heh.
15:21:27 <fizzie> You can open Nautilus, select a file of given type, do right-click + properties + "open with"; that gives you a list (with add/remove/reset options) for that file type.
15:21:33 <fizzie> I'm not sure if there's some central place, though.
15:22:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm pretty sure there is no central place. I found one for KDE though.
15:22:19 <ais523> I'm in the middle of teaching my students atm
15:22:24 <ais523> but one at a time, at 12-minute intervals
15:22:33 <ais523> so presumably I'll do loads of talking up to but not including :24
15:22:43 <ais523> IRC's open for me to check up on in the gaps in between
15:23:14 <Vorpal> ais523, won't take your time with fea^W^W^Wstuff then!
15:23:39 <ais523> so that's "ais523, won't take your stuff then"
15:23:47 <Vorpal> ais523, oh right, haven't slept for over 24h
15:23:50 <ais523> which is presumably correct, if not what you meant to say
15:23:54 <ais523> also, why avoid sleep for that long?
15:24:12 <Vorpal> ais523, not intentional, trust me. I had an exam this morning so...
15:24:19 <Vorpal> just couldn't sleep this night
15:24:25 <ais523> so sleeping before it would have been a good idea?
15:24:39 <Vorpal> ais523, yes, I tried but didn't work
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15:44:01 <ais523> what was the exam about, anyway?
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15:59:24 <Sgeo> If people weren't so afraid of following instructions, things would be much easier
15:59:27 <Sgeo> Some printer wasn't working
15:59:47 <Sgeo> I "fixed" it by following prompts that were on the screen and choosing to change the paper tray that it used
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16:05:25 <Sgeo> Guests can only watch the chat
16:08:57 <ais523> Guest55736: stop impersonating Gregor!
16:09:08 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest395.
16:09:38 -!- Guest55736 has changed nick to Gregor.
16:09:52 <Gregor> I shouldn't have my BNC log in for me when it doesn't know my nickserv password :P
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17:04:43 <Vorpal> <ais523> what was the exam about, anyway? <-- computer networks
17:05:37 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> I "fixed" it by following prompts that were on the screen and choosing to change the paper tray that it used <-- do you seriously expect people to read any dialogue boxes?
17:06:12 <Sgeo> Wasn't a dialog box, it was a message on the printer
17:06:43 <Sgeo> Wish people did
17:07:12 <Vorpal> Sgeo, that is even less likely
17:08:50 <Sgeo> Switched the printer to tray 2
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17:33:39 <Guest395> Your printer-fixing prowess is unohyou'regone never mind.
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18:17:06 -!- cpressey has set topic: 11 days since last oerjan sighting | http://esolangs.org/wiki/ | DEAD SERIOUS | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:19:28 <Gregor> Or on vacation, dead in a well.
18:19:50 <fizzie> The things people do for fun nowadays.
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18:49:21 <Gregor> Why does my AC adapter smell like burning solder ...
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19:14:36 <elliott> 07:15:01 <Vorpal> why on earth is configuring which program should open a given file type so hard in gnome? There is a checkbox to change default when selecting "open with". Thats all. No place to remove apps from that list for example.
19:14:36 <elliott> 07:15:50 <Vorpal> I resorted to editing the underlying .ini-style config file
19:14:36 <elliott> 07:19:19 <Vorpal> Other somewhat related issue: wine likes to steal associations for stuff like *.jpg, *.txt and so on for the included wine-notepad, wine-browser and so on. And keeps adding them back even if you remove them. Disabling that took some work as well.
19:14:36 <elliott> 07:20:15 <Vorpal> Neither thing would be easy for a novice-user. Things like this are probably why we haven't yet seen the "year of the linux desktop". Heh.
19:14:39 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:14:42 <elliott> Normal people don't configure their apps.
19:14:46 <elliott> Normal people don't use Wine.
19:14:55 <elliott> Wine doing that sucks, and Gnome's feature could be more obvious,
19:15:01 <elliott> but that is not a problem for "normal people".
19:15:43 <elliott> good to see you; haven't in a while
19:17:12 <Jackoz> real users don't use linux either
19:17:17 <Jackoz> they just go with plan9
19:17:26 <elliott> Jackoz: i swear, i had my pitchfork out
19:17:31 <elliott> then you totally redeemed yourself
19:17:54 <Jackoz> or, if they are able to manage bootloader, I can allow them to use their own OSes
19:19:05 <Jackoz> elliott: you were scared about what? microsoft windows? rofl
19:19:16 <elliott> Jackoz: BSDs or, hell, OS X :)
19:20:39 <Jackoz> should I give this book (http://www.amazon.com/Purely-Functional-Structures-Chris-Okasaki/dp/0521663504) a try?
19:20:50 <Vorpal> <elliott> Jackoz: i swear, i had my pitchfork out <-- BSD joke right?
19:21:06 <elliott> Jackoz: Chris Okasaki is wonderful
19:21:14 <Vorpal> elliott, worked as one anyway
19:21:23 <Jackoz> I was thinking about buying it, now you convinced me
19:21:42 <elliott> Jackoz: The examples in the book use a version of ML (not OCaml), too, so you probably won't have much trouble reading them.
19:21:55 <elliott> (Laziness is done with a little ad hoc language extension, heh... He does give equivalents in Haskell though.)
19:22:11 <Jackoz> elliott: another dialect? they should be all quite similar
19:22:25 <elliott> the original that your poseur OCaml is derived from ;)
19:22:39 <Jackoz> elliott: oh SML, btw laziness shouldn't be so hard to implement
19:22:58 <elliott> Jackoz: yeah he just uses uh $x to denote lazy x i think
19:23:02 <elliott> not sure he actually implemented it
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19:23:07 <elliott> but why would you want to *run* code?!?!?
19:23:14 <elliott> we're theoreticians! pfft!
19:23:24 <Jackoz> elliott: what I was wondering is if he will talk about complex things, cause easy ones are already enough mastered
19:24:11 <elliott> Jackoz: I've never heard of anyone who doesn't recommend it :) I haven't read the whole thing myself but I've read parts and a lot of other things Chris Okasaki has written, and I've heard many, many recommendations from cool people, so.
19:24:42 <elliott> Jackoz: You could always click that "look inside" link and get a selection of probably 5 of the most useless pages. :P
19:24:52 <Jackoz> elliott: ok, you've been enough convincing again.. since this kind of books is usually not so much cheap :)
19:25:11 <Jackoz> elliott: I just clicked the "look-rapidshare-inside" big red button
19:25:18 <elliott> Yeah, CS books are... impressively expensive.
19:25:32 <elliott> Jackoz: I couldn't read a whole book on a computer.
19:25:37 <elliott> I'd have to at least print it out.
19:26:51 <Jackoz> me neither, I definetely love the flavour of paper when I hold a book, but before spending some money a peek is needed
19:29:06 <Jackoz> then I bought a pivot monitor just to have some comfort in reading books
19:32:19 <elliott> I need an eBook reader that doesn't suck ass.
19:32:30 <elliott> Maybe Gregor will convince me to get one of those iREXs.
19:32:59 <elliott> "As publicly announced, IREX Technologies is no longer trading and this website has been permanently closed."
19:33:29 <elliott> They went bankrupt because of the FCC :P
19:35:10 <elliott> 09:33:39 <Guest395> Your printer-fixing prowess is unohyou'regone never mind.
19:35:25 <elliott> You switched back to Gregor and there's no record of anyone joining or /nicking in the interim in the logs
19:35:39 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, don't get an IREX :P
19:35:51 <elliott> Gregor: MORE IMPORTANT: EXPLAIN THIS MYSTERY
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19:35:56 <elliott> 08:09:08 --- nick: Gregor -> Guest395
19:35:56 <elliott> 08:09:38 --- nick: Guest55736 -> Gregor
19:36:08 <elliott> [time passes, no log discontinuity, no nicks to Guest395, no joins of that nick either]
19:36:12 <elliott> 09:33:39 <Guest395> Your printer-fixing prowess is unohyou'regone never mind.
19:36:24 <Gregor> elliott: 1) I accidentally had two systems logging in and to set my nick, 2) My BNC doesn't know my nickserv pass.
19:36:53 <elliott> Gregor: You broke my brain with your numbers.
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19:44:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm a bit confused about "unohyou'regone never mind" though
19:44:38 <elliott> Try applying the splitting engine.;
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19:47:33 <Vorpal> elliott, doyouthinktextwrittenlikethisishardtoreadornot?
19:47:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Not very. And besides, it was a non-word three words.
19:48:21 <olsner> elliott: did you do anything more on the boot sector that went into protected mode?
19:48:30 <Vorpal> elliott, I just generalised the issue
19:48:38 <elliott> olsner: I am still working on it; currently, the issue is that it doesn't actually load the kernel.
19:48:46 <elliott> olsner: This makes *no sense whatsoever*.
19:49:29 <Vorpal> elliott, maybeyourenteredthenextsector,thatisrunoutofbytesintheMBR?
19:49:56 <elliott> Vorpal: If I run out of bytes in the MBR my padding would be negative and it would not assemble. No: It is 512 bytes exactly. The issue is that the BIOS interrupt somehow does not load the kernel.
19:50:04 <elliott> The code is only 208 bytes or so, anyway.
19:50:31 <Vorpal> elliott, how easy was "maybeyourentered" to parse, did you need to backtrack from "you're" to "you en[tered]"?
19:50:55 <elliott> This is beyond ridiculous.
19:52:01 <Vorpal> elliott, I haven't slept for about 34 hours though
19:52:26 <Vorpal> I just couldn't sleep this night. Sigh... some sort of temporary insomnia I guess.
19:52:34 <elliott> Vorpal: wtf -- I couldn't either
19:52:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Admittedly it was about 8am when I started sleepcrastinating and actually went to bed.
19:53:02 <elliott> But then it was 12 am and nothing had happened.
19:53:11 <elliott> This is why it is almost 7 pm now and I've just woken up.
19:53:16 <Vorpal> elliott, am, that is [0,12) right?
19:53:31 <Vorpal> I can never keep them apart
19:53:55 <elliott> 12 am, 1 am, 2 am, 3 am, 4 am, 5 am, 6 am, 7 am, 8 am, 9 am, 10 am, 11 am, 12 pm, 1 pm, 2 pm, 3 pm, 4 pm, 5 pm, 6 pm, 7 pm, 8 pm, 9 pm, 10 pm, 11 pm
19:53:59 <Vorpal> anyway, I couldn't sleep in the day, had an exam
19:54:17 <elliott> Holidays here. Although ending rapidly..
19:54:44 <Vorpal> holiday week here, but only for high school and lower
19:55:03 <zzo38> I think TeX contains a lot of lies --- there is one error message that says "Missing { inserted", but actually it isn't inserting anything; what it does is skip the { if there is one, and otherwise displays the error message.
19:55:22 <Vorpal> elliott, has the innovative name of höstlov (en:autumn holiday)
19:55:39 <elliott> Vorpal: It's called "half term" here.
19:55:42 <elliott> And yeah, high school and lower.
19:55:53 <Vorpal> well, it is the current week iirc
19:56:04 <elliott> zzo38: I think it means "I'm pretending there was a { here."
19:56:21 <elliott> Vorpal: It was last week, but today is ~Teacher training day~
19:56:25 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, that would be a better way of writing it, in my opinion.
19:56:30 <Vorpal> elliott, for me it is called "exam week". Oh well, I have more days than usual free at least.
19:56:49 <elliott> Pretty sure they just eat biscuits all day.
19:56:55 <olsner> elliott: at the risk of being obvious, it sounds like the problem is that you're doing something wrong
19:57:01 <Vorpal> elliott, you don't such during university you know
19:57:09 <elliott> Vorpal: What, eat biscuits?
19:57:10 <elliott> olsner: Yes, I considered that.
19:57:28 <elliott> olsner: However I have directly ripped off cpressey's code again almost word for word and it *just doesn't work*.
19:57:33 <Vorpal> elliott, no, skipped teaching due to teachers getting taught
19:57:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Uh, yeah, I know that ...
19:57:52 <Vorpal> elliott, but biscuits, short supply too
19:58:08 <elliott> olsner: http://sprunge.us/eKMD
19:58:24 <elliott> olsner: Includes magical debug code! After "boot!" you see the first few bytes of the brave new world^W^W^Wloaded kernel.
19:58:27 <elliott> Which are zeroes, as it stands.
19:58:34 <olsner> hmm, I have some disk code here, but I don't know how it works, and I don't know if it actually supports a >1 sector kernel image
19:58:38 <Vorpal> elliott, and the black market biscuits are too expensive for most students.
19:59:03 <elliott> olsner: Well, the BIOS call can load N sectors with a parameter for reasonable N.
19:59:03 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean like, raid the cafeterias?
19:59:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Sure. Or whatever shops are nearby.
20:00:00 <Vorpal> elliott, campus is located at the edge of the city. Modern university. Not one of the old ones spread out over half the town centre
20:00:48 <olsner> hmm, what does dx=0 mean here? my code uses mov dx,0x0180 before all the disk calls
20:00:53 <elliott> I gather that Oxford is like an unkillable patch of weeds. :)
20:01:00 <Vorpal> elliott, should be fixable once the time travel lab gets some actual results
20:01:15 <elliott> DL = drive number (bit 7 set for hard disk)
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20:01:43 <elliott> So you read from the 0x80th head (??????????) of drive 1.
20:01:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I can imagine (wrt Oxford)
20:02:00 <olsner> no, head 1 of first hard drive
20:02:18 <elliott> olsner: Well, I'm on a floppy.
20:02:29 <elliott> olsner: Also, *pretty* sure that DL gets initialised by the BIOS.
20:02:35 <olsner> or 0th hard drive? or "the" boot drive? not sure which is which here
20:02:40 <elliott> olsner: The worst thing is that *this* *worked*.
20:02:52 <elliott> olsner: If I filled the floppy with /dev/urandom, it'd do crazy shit.
20:02:58 <Vorpal> <elliott> DL = drive number (bit 7 set for hard disk) <-- if not set, floppy?
20:02:58 <elliott> olsner: If I filled it with /dev/zero, the same thing every time.
20:03:04 <elliott> olsner: So *why* is it failing now???
20:03:11 <Vorpal> elliott, what about cds then? they use something else?
20:03:25 <Vorpal> oh right, now I remember
20:03:25 <zzo38> DL gets initialized by the BIOS (at least in Bochs, it does, anyways).
20:03:27 <elliott> Don't think BIOSes can do them for you.
20:03:29 <Vorpal> el torrito or something?
20:04:07 <olsner> could it be that you're mistaking the address where the stuff is loaded?
20:04:15 <Vorpal> elliott, why that strange name I wonders
20:04:22 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:04:26 <Vorpal> gah, don't change a /me to a /msg in the middle
20:05:03 <elliott> According to legend, the El Torito CD/DVD extension to ISO 9660 gained its name because its design originated in an El Torito restaurant in Irvine, California.[2] The initial two authors were Curtis Stevens, of Phoenix Technologies, and Stan Merkin, of IBM.[2]
20:05:10 <elliott> El Torito (Spanish for "the little bull") is a Mexican restaurant chain located primarily in California, with a small number of outlets in Oregon, Arizona, and Japan. They have a total of 69 outlets.[1] El Torito is one of several Mexican cuisine restaurants operated by Real Mex Restaurants. The executive chef is Pepe Lopez.
20:05:10 <elliott> Founded in 1954, they claim to be "a pioneer in the California full service Mexican casual dining restaurant segment. Leveraging more than 50 years of operational experience, El Torito is currently the largest Mexican restaurant brand in California in terms of number of restaurants and operates franchise locations in Japan, Turkey and the Middle East."[2]
20:05:51 <elliott> Fuck OFF Jimbo, I'm not giving you any money.
20:05:55 <zzo38> Does the TRIP test allow that if I write C-TeX, I can make the error messages different? Or only the help messages?
20:06:15 <elliott> The Rock Ridge Interchange Protocol (RRIP, IEEE P1282) is an extension to the ISO 9660 volume format, commonly used on CDROM and DVD media, which adds POSIX file system semantics. The availability of these extension properties allows for better integration with Unix and Unix-like operating systems.
20:06:15 <elliott> RRIP was developed by Andrew Young of Young Minds, Inc. in the early 1990s. The standard takes its name from the fictional town Rock Ridge in Mel Brooks' film Blazing Saddles.
20:06:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I know what rock ridge is, though I never thought about the reason for the name
20:07:11 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, Joilet. Is it named after Joilet, Arkansas or what?
20:07:27 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: I don't know).
20:07:47 <olsner> who would remember the name of the fictional town in blazing saddles?
20:08:18 <elliott> Vorpal: It's Microsoft; probably named after jolly toilets.
20:08:26 <Vorpal> olsner, a creepily fanish fan!
20:08:55 <Vorpal> elliott, *shudder* that made me think of MS Bob
20:09:09 <elliott> I hope the MS Bob recycle bin was a toilet.
20:09:41 <elliott> "Microsoft originally owned the domain name bob.com, but traded it to Bob Kerstein for the windows2000.com domain name."
20:09:49 <elliott> Now if he had been called Dave...
20:10:06 <elliott> Vorpal: "Bob's install images are used as "padding" on the original Windows XP install CDs as an anti-piracy measure."
20:11:09 <Vorpal> elliott, you know, you could easily do this on your computer. 10 minutes max: 7 minutes to find good images to use. 1 minute to create a new theme and symlink the unchanged stuff in. half a minute to put new icons in, and then 20 seconds to change to that theme
20:11:17 <Vorpal> (for the toilet in gnome I meant)
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20:11:40 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't use Gnome :P
20:11:53 <Vorpal> elliott, well, which DE/WM do you currently use?
20:12:02 <elliott> Xfce. Admittedly it uses the same icons.
20:12:11 <elliott> But really, the only time I ever see the Wastebasket is in Thunar :P
20:12:35 <Vorpal> elliott, the wastebasket? Oh you must mean the toilet. hah
20:12:58 <Vorpal> yes I know they can't draw a toilet
20:13:26 <Vorpal> why do the artist always screw up toilet icons so they look more like paperbins
20:13:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Linux users don't leave the room; they've never seen a toilet.
20:14:09 <elliott> Although they'll need to change their XXXXXXXXL-size nappy soon.
20:14:26 <elliott> Wow did not need that mental image.
20:14:38 <elliott> olsner: SO HAVE YOU FIGURED IT OUT YET
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20:15:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I concluded in terms of "hi I'm a mac..." openbsd would be the linux "tronman" but with a tinfoil armour instead (one size too small) and a tie added.
20:16:36 <Vorpal> the tie would be rather badly put on
20:16:54 <elliott> Vorpal: and with really puffed up cheeks, red in the face with flame
20:16:59 <elliott> perhaps holding a flamethrower
20:17:03 <Vorpal> elliott, oh definitely
20:17:33 <elliott> Vorpal: also there'd be little patches where there's no armour, but they'd have "ONLY TWO REMOTE HOLES" scribbled on.
20:18:06 <elliott> then when he decides to talk to someone -- his head is in the armour too -- he opens it up and a swarm of bees attack him and he dies. Then he holds up a flag saying "I said in the DEFAULT installation!".
20:18:11 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. but I didn't like to draw such a mental NSFW picture (considering where those holes are...)
20:19:07 <elliott> @^@^@^@^@^@Uªôéúÿÿÿ^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@
20:19:26 <Vorpal> cpressey, Not Safe For Vertical Integration?
20:19:35 <Vorpal> elliott, ah there is a clear pattern to that!
20:19:42 <cpressey> Not Safe for Vorpal's Imagination
20:19:52 <Vorpal> cpressey, oh, touche indeed
20:20:01 <elliott> +-----------------------------------------------------------+
20:20:01 <elliott> | IMPORTANT: PLEASE DON'T MAKE ANY CHANGES TO THIS PROJECT! |
20:20:01 <elliott> +-----------------------------------------------------------+
20:20:11 <elliott> ("The system saves every version of every project, so nothing is ever lost." Aww.)
20:20:21 <Vorpal> elliott, where is that from?
20:20:59 <Vorpal> elliott, it looks almost like frama-c, which is french which could explain why they use "project" to refer to "immutable processed version of the AST"
20:21:18 <elliott> Presumably, they mean "projection".
20:21:29 <Vorpal> so as read in is one project, then value analysis creates a new project
20:21:42 <Vorpal> elliott, yes probably but the result is rather weird :P
20:22:14 <Vorpal> elliott, the english is quite good elsewhere in general. Just a few small things that stands out as odd, like this
20:23:31 <Vorpal> elliott, can't find any desc on ometa/js when googling, just interactive "try it out online" kind of things
20:23:44 <elliott> Vorpal: that is what ometa/js is
20:23:56 <elliott> http://www.tinlizzie.org/ometa/
20:24:15 <elliott> a meta-meta-parser-framework-meta object framework parser meta meta.
20:24:23 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, any good? Or just yet another one?
20:24:46 <elliott> Vorpal: It's a Viewpoints Research Institute project.
20:24:47 <Vorpal> elliott, well it said programming language on the page
20:25:02 <Vorpal> "yet another programming language, or one that stands out?"
20:25:11 <Vorpal> oh wait indeed it didn't
20:25:14 <Vorpal> "OMeta is a new object-oriented language for pattern matching"
20:25:25 <Vorpal> well, object oriented language fooled me
20:25:45 <elliott> It's half-research, half lovely VPRI madness.
20:26:13 <Vorpal> elliott, what else have they done? Trying to remember what they are famous for
20:26:40 <elliott> Vorpal: Alan Kay works there, and you may have heard of COLA/idris/pepsi/...
20:26:57 <Vorpal> pepsi certainly but not in this context I think
20:27:17 <elliott> http://piumarta.com/software/cola/ has some information.
20:27:25 <elliott> cola (aka Idst, Jolt, the SODA languages, &c.) is an ongoing project to create a springboard for investigating new computing paradigms. Everything in it is late-bound, the intention being that any paradigm (existing or yet to be invented, formal complexity notwithstanding) be easily and efficiently mapped to it and made available to the user. It is a small part (the implementation vehicle) of the reinventing computing project.
20:28:42 <elliott> Vorpal: COLA is -- uh, I think "COLA" is the word for this component -- a Smalltalk-esque language on top of it all. VPRI have used it to do insane things such as:
20:28:53 <elliott> You know how in the IP (at least v4) RFC, it has a diagram of a packet?
20:29:02 <elliott> They defined their packet structure by:
20:29:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I got stuck at figuring out what "be easily and efficiently mapped to it and made available to the user" actually meant in practical terms
20:29:09 <elliott> - Writing a parser for the ASCII diagrams
20:29:13 <elliott> - Pasting the diagram in from the RFC
20:29:14 <Vorpal> I mean, it parses fine
20:29:40 <Vorpal> elliott, right, I heard about that
20:29:56 <Vorpal> elliott, wasn't there some language with a name starting with E that supported that?
20:30:01 <elliott> Vorpal: tl;dr user-as-programming, meta, etc.
20:30:20 <elliott> I don't think Epigram does that
20:30:28 <elliott> Trying to rack my brains...
20:30:28 <Vorpal> might have confused it
20:30:31 <Vorpal> elliott, might have *dreamt it*
20:30:32 <elliott> It sort of rings a bell for that but...
20:30:47 <Vorpal> I read something about visual structs and then about epigram quite recently
20:30:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Whatever, anyway, tl;dr: VPRI is Alan Kay's organisation dedicated to being entirely too awesome on a regular basis.
20:31:31 <Vorpal> elliott, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigram_%28programming_language%29 seems to have quite fancy decls anyway
20:31:37 <Vorpal> it might be that I confused it with
20:31:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, Epigram 1 is... queer.
20:31:58 <elliott> (Epigram *2* we're not entirely sure is a language. Or has syntax.)
20:32:10 <elliott> (Or is even thinkable of.)
20:32:20 <elliott> And we've been trying to figure it out since, what, 2005?
20:32:29 <Vorpal> that means it must intersect with feather
20:32:38 <elliott> Vorpal: No, it's just extreme vapourware.
20:32:42 <elliott> Stuff happens, but at an amazingly glacial rate.
20:32:43 <Vorpal> question is now, if it is a subset, superset, or just boring intersection
20:32:52 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean like feather?
20:32:56 <elliott> And Connor keeps deciding to chuck things out and rewrite whole swathes of the language.
20:33:04 <elliott> Especially when it turns out that whoops, that won't work.
20:33:16 <Vorpal> elliott, second system syndrome?
20:34:10 <elliott> Vorpal: It's academia. The whole thing is practically an exercise in third system syndrome.
20:34:40 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I'm sure VPRI is awesome but it is a bit too meta to make any sense when I'm as sleep deprived as I am.
20:35:00 <elliott> Don't worry, it doesn't make any sense when you're awake either.
20:35:01 <Vorpal> elliott, as long as you can produce papers on it at a steady rate
20:35:19 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not sure if that is good, bad or lacks emotional value
20:35:44 <Vorpal> elliott, wow, I would never have guessed! ;P
20:35:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, VPRI don't need to write papers, they have FUNDING!
20:36:05 <elliott> http://www.viewpointsresearch.org/html/sponsors.htm
20:36:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant for epigram mostly
20:36:13 <elliott> SNF, Intel, Motorola, HP, Nokia.
20:36:21 <elliott> And in the past: ARPA, Xerox PARC, Atari, Apple, Disney.
20:37:00 <Vorpal> elliott, those companies would want you to get results. Not getting results = no more funding. So they can't go too far into >1 system syndrome
20:37:16 <elliott> Vorpal: VPRI get... few "results" as such.
20:37:31 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, then why do intel still fund them
20:37:37 <elliott> Vorpal: They did Squeak Etoys and Croquet.
20:37:46 <elliott> And they *do* write papers and stuff.
20:37:57 <Vorpal> elliott, Croquet... what was that now again
20:38:16 <Vorpal> familiar, bell is definitely ringing, but there is all echo around here
20:38:19 <elliott> Vorpal: A not-very-good 3D Smalltalk environment thing and oh god Sgeo is going to pipe up.
20:38:30 <elliott> Vorpal: It's an open project; VPRI aren't responsible for most of the badness. :)
20:38:32 <Vorpal> elliott, he is not in the channel atm :P
20:38:55 <Vorpal> elliott, and what did etoys do...
20:39:24 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.linux.com/var/uploads/Image/articles/130014-1.png
20:39:39 <elliott> Vorpal: VPRI's official goal is "lol, computers + learning".
20:39:43 <elliott> But really, an awful lot of it is just awesome shit.
20:40:02 <Vorpal> elliott, hah. That explains so much about the awful colour theme of squeak
20:40:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well, even without that it is quite... colourful
20:40:29 <olsner> elliott: I'm missing a kernel image, obviously, but otherwise it does seem to me that it successfully loads some garbage and jumps into it
20:40:54 <elliott> olsner: Well *that* it does not do, considering I put an infinite loop in there.
20:41:13 <elliott> olsner: How about I give you a .tgz?
20:41:19 <olsner> after removing the infinite loop obviously :P
20:41:37 <Vorpal> elliott, they are behind sqeuak?!
20:41:51 <elliott> Vorpal: It was derived directly from Smalltalk-80 by a group at Apple Computer that included some of the original Smalltalk-80 developers. Its development was continued by the same group at Walt Disney Imagineering, where it was intended for use in internal Disney projects.
20:42:01 <elliott> The colour scheme is just because fuck you. :)
20:42:29 <Vorpal> elliott, it isn't just the colours, it isn't just the shape of elements, it isn't just the icons. It is all three together.
20:42:44 <elliott> olsner: http://filebin.ca/eaxjwt/tempo.tar
20:42:55 <Vorpal> elliott, what, we agree on a UI being bad?
20:43:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Smalltalk-80 was much classier: http://tedkaehler.weather-dimensions.com/us/ted/resume/st80release-lic2.jpg
20:43:38 <Vorpal> elliott, possibly only due to 1 bit per pixel from the look of that image...
20:43:56 <elliott> Vorpal: You could easily add a few highlights and it'd still be nice.
20:44:06 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, it would even be nicer
20:44:15 <elliott> http://www.abclinuxu.cz/images/clanky/krivanek/smalltalk-80-2.png
20:44:18 <Vorpal> elliott, like, make non-active window borders dark grey or something
20:44:26 <elliott> http://www.abclinuxu.cz/images/clanky/krivanek/smalltalk-80-6.png
20:44:42 <elliott> Vorpal: It's the early 80s.
20:45:00 <Vorpal> elliott, not common even with greyscale then
20:45:26 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/wolfgang.kreutzer/cosc205/images/stShot1.gif Early Squeak, basically Smalltalk 80 + colours.
20:45:26 <Vorpal> elliott, that is b&w, not even 4 bit greyscale or such
20:45:31 <elliott> Admittedly not very nice colours.
20:45:44 <elliott> Vorpal: The Macintosh was 1-bit in 84.
20:45:55 <Vorpal> elliott, that actually looks better than modern squeak...
20:45:55 <elliott> http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/wolfgang.kreutzer/cosc205/images/stShot12.gif FUCKING OW MY EYES
20:46:16 <elliott> olsner: So have you fixed it yet?!?!?!?/1
20:46:21 <Vorpal> elliott, I hope this can be blamed on gamma or something
20:46:38 <olsner> elliott: nope, but I seem to have discovered how to connect gdb to bochs
20:46:51 <Vorpal> olsner, sounds like quite a feat
20:46:59 <elliott> Vorpal: bochs is designed to do that :P
20:47:12 <olsner> elliott: doesn't make it less of a feat :P
20:47:15 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought it had a built in debugger?
20:47:22 <Vorpal> everything with bochs is a feat
20:47:42 <elliott> Every time I think "Oh, I should use bochs" I start crying.
20:48:05 <elliott> " It can also be used to run older software – such as PC games – which will not run on non-compatible, or too fast computers." --Wikipedia
20:48:12 <elliott> I can't imagine any game wanting to run on a computer THAT slow!
20:48:13 <olsner> afaik, the built-in debugging amounts to having a grayed-out menu option for displaying memory contents, and a box that displays the registers (in real-time! making it too fast to see anything)
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20:49:13 <Vorpal> elliott, for recording perfect frame timing?
20:49:41 <Vorpal> elliott, because you no longer need a software that allows you to go back to previous frame if you screwed up!
20:50:14 <elliott> Ooh, you could use bochs for tool-assisted speedruns.
20:50:21 <elliott> You get a whole hour to decide what input to give each frame.
20:50:23 <Vorpal> elliott, yes what I said basically
20:50:37 <Vorpal> elliott, well, lets be fair. 45 minutes max on a modern computer
20:51:15 <Vorpal> probably could be as little as 40 minutes, but I doubt less than that
20:54:43 <Vorpal> http://www.viewpointsresearch.org/html/work/pichri.htm: "For example, the Wikipedia is impressive in its number of entries and that it has been made and sustained by the larger Internet community, but its content is mostly hyperlinked text with a few pictures and formulas. It is very far from rich dynamic computer media and from the kind of content that most learners need." <-- because there are only so
20:54:43 <Vorpal> many ways to graphically illustrate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_a_disjunct (first result on clicking random article)
20:55:15 <elliott> VPRI are focused primarily on children learning
20:55:29 <Vorpal> elliott, well, wikipedia isn't just that though, so bad example maybe
20:55:55 <elliott> "I blame java and bloated, resource-hogging platforms. The disk drive has increased in speed quite a bit in the last 10 years and is still the slowest thing in a computer (excluding the user). If we wrote all programs in efficient languages like C and ASM, our computers should be thousands of times faster than we perceive them to be today. The reliance on interpreted languages and bloated platforms (even the browser is considered a platform nowad
20:55:55 <elliott> ays and is mega-bloated if you ask me) but people continue to think that the advancements of hardware will make up for the lazy and bloated programming solutions that people come up with nowadays."
20:55:58 <elliott> Comment on the Loper OS blog.
20:56:10 <elliott> (1) GNOME is incredibly lightweight and speedy, and
20:56:15 <elliott> (2) Smalltalk was impossibly slow.
20:56:27 <Vorpal> elliott, what idiot wrote that?
20:56:43 <elliott> http://badcheese.com/; he was kind enough to leave a name and URL so we can all know to not listen to him in the future.
20:56:44 <Vorpal> though, gnome is not slow enough to cause any annoyance at least.
20:57:01 <elliott> But it's certainly not super-C-speedy, that's for sure.
20:57:02 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I used KDE back when GNOME sucked
20:57:13 <Vorpal> elliott, of course, but as long as it is fast enough, who cares
20:57:25 <elliott> Well, see http://www.loper-os.org/?p=300, the post on which it is a comment :)
20:57:49 <elliott> GNOME is not quite fast enough for me to like it. It is okay though.
20:58:08 <Vorpal> elliott, metacity or compiz?
20:58:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I found metacity far more responsive
20:58:49 <elliott> Anyway, existing DEs have far greater problems than speed.
20:59:01 <Vorpal> elliott, even on my old sempron 3300+ gnome is fast enough that I don't notice any speed difference compared to, say, twm
20:59:29 <elliott> "You can click the mouse on ANY area that you can see in the editor and the cursor will go there and allow you to start typing.
20:59:29 <elliott> If you position yourself at the beginning of the line and hit the left arrow, you will not budge.
20:59:29 <elliott> If you position yourself at the end of the line and hit the right arrow, you will keep moving right
20:59:29 <elliott> This is how IntelliJ IDEA works by default."
20:59:36 * elliott puts IntelliJ IDEA on his list of "weird things".
21:00:09 <Vorpal> elliott, actually that sounds almost like kate in block mode
21:00:16 <Vorpal> elliott, apart from the arrow at start of line
21:00:51 <Vorpal> elliott, it is useful to move and copy rectangular blocks rather than every letter between two points
21:01:11 <Vorpal> elliott, I use it every now and then, try it out if you never used it
21:01:34 <elliott> I used it extensively when I used TextMate and I have developed a healthy hate of every other editor ever because I can't figure out how to do it quickly.
21:01:39 <elliott> With TextMate it's just alt+drag.
21:01:59 <Vorpal> elliott, it's a mode because it interacts with copy and paste too
21:02:04 <cpressey> also, I'd just like to say, in Python, string.upper() should totally be a magical attribute (str.upper) that hides the method, because that would be so pythonic, i.e. conceptually incoherent
21:02:23 <Vorpal> elliott, in that, what pasting a multi-line thing does changes with this mode
21:02:33 <cpressey> back to your regularly scheduled IntelliJ IDEA wtf'ing
21:02:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, and the nicest thing about it in TextMate:
21:03:10 <elliott> Vorpal: If you alt-drag vertically across a certain bit and type, it *adds to all those lines*.
21:03:17 <cpressey> how about every method you could define has a __methodname__ counterpart
21:03:51 <elliott> This is *insanely* useful.
21:04:18 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, let me try
21:05:09 <Vorpal> elliott, alas it does something else. Anyway it is the two-mode thingy
21:05:26 <Vorpal> elliott, still the features somewhat overlap, none has all the features of the other one
21:05:33 <Vorpal> elliott, I assume leaden will do this?
21:05:46 <elliott> Yes. Or if it doesn't, amend will :)
21:06:13 <elliott> Leaden is what I call prereleases of amend because calling anything amend that does not live up to its name is sinful.
21:07:30 <elliott> So basically leaden is amend before it turns into a gigantic beast worthy of emacs complexity :)
21:08:24 <Vorpal> elliott, also I'm sorry to inform you that it is my duty to inform you that you have exceeded the names reserved / actually used limit. To prevent phase space depletion you are now forbidden from naming new things until you implemented at least 4 of the current reserved names.
21:10:56 <Vorpal> elliott, you could also send in form 14c(32)b9 in three copies to request a release of some of your reserved names. That is three copies per name to release.
21:11:40 <Vorpal> then you would get a confirmation form 11t(53)h14 in return to sign and send back
21:20:26 <olsner> elliott: hmm, when you're testing and it doesn't work, do you compile with the code that sets the real sector to find the kernel image or do you compile with mov cl,3; mov ch,3; which is the wrong values?
21:20:48 <elliott> olsner: the values are wrong?
21:20:55 <elliott> I worked them out using cpressey's bootloader code.
21:21:12 <olsner> because if I replace that with mov cx,KERNEL_START, it boots and halts at 0x8001
21:21:17 <elliott> olsner: Feel free to fix the values :P Ignore KERNEL_SECTORS btw, it's way too big to work with the bios call, just pretend the kernel is 2 sectors or something.
21:21:25 <elliott> olsner: don't you mean mov cl?
21:21:52 <elliott> But, uh, wow, you're right.
21:21:57 <olsner> well, same thing, except it doesn't rely on ch already being 0 from before
21:22:17 <elliott> olsner: aren't all the registers defined to be zero on boot? apart from dl
21:22:43 <olsner> on boot, but I don't want to do dataflow analysis on your boot loader to find out if that's the value still lying around in ch when it gets there
21:23:10 <elliott> olsner: i'm planning to do the a20 line properly, so i'm space-optimising to make room for that :)
21:24:55 <olsner> you could skip it and do A20 in the second stage/the kernel :P
21:25:18 <cpressey> it must be done in the boot block!
21:25:31 <cpressey> i refuse to give reasons for this
21:25:48 <elliott> olsner: but i want my kernel to be in a nice environment when i get to it!
21:26:17 <elliott> olsner: What I *am* worried about is, if I want to modify the GDT and IDT later, I have to modify them where the bootsector is, right?
21:26:32 <elliott> olsner: So, basically, they can be about two, three hundred max, combined.
21:26:32 <cpressey> elliott: i feel half-responsible, since i had a similar idea (go into unreal mode in the bootblock)
21:26:44 <elliott> cpressey: that was zzo38's idea :)
21:27:02 <cpressey> elliott: he doesn't actually do it in the bootblock - that was my misrecollection
21:27:20 <olsner> hmm, I think you can change them later
21:27:25 <elliott> cpressey: well, unreal mode = protected mode + more code :)
21:27:47 <elliott> olsner: you can relocate them?
21:27:50 <elliott> seems a bit pointless though
21:27:51 <olsner> but in the GDT case, you really don't need more than one data and one code segment
21:28:04 <elliott> olsner: unless i start doing crazy shit :)
21:29:34 <elliott> olsner: now all I have to do is have a loop so i can load more than 8.5 kilobytes of kernel
21:30:22 <olsner> yeah, you should be checking al after int 13h, that contains the number of sectors read
21:31:04 <elliott> olsner: erm, the only reason it'd load less than what i tell it to is if something went wrong, surely
21:31:13 <elliott> and if something went wrong i'm not interested :)
21:31:40 <elliott> olsner: presumably carry is set if al < the input al?
21:31:45 <elliott> in which case, i retry anyway
21:33:02 <elliott> olsner: but hey, 8.5k is good enough for now :)
21:33:05 <Gregor> Welp, there goes that afternoon.
21:33:13 <elliott> that's over 17 times this bootsector!
21:34:38 <elliott> olsner: remind me to get around to doing a higher-half kernel sometime :P
21:34:54 <elliott> say, I don't need CODE_SEGMENT and DATA_SEGMENT defined inside the kernel proper, do I?
21:34:58 <elliott> since they're cs and ds anyway
21:35:49 <olsner> nah, you only need those if you ever wanted to reset cs or ds... maybe that's relevant when you get to multitasking, but I haven't really gotten that far myself yet
21:36:20 <olsner> in any case, you know them since you set up the gdt, those are just constants anyway
21:37:30 <elliott> does blinking exist at the vga memory level?
21:37:49 <elliott> it's just that qemu displays my A20 error as solid black on solid white
21:38:09 <elliott> and bochs displays it as flickery (not blinking, really, just *flickery*) black that seems to be grey eveyr now and then on top of grey
21:38:17 <elliott> (grey being the default colour, the "greyish white")
21:38:26 <olsner> I think there's magic involved that determines whether it's a high-intensity or blinking bit, or something like that
21:38:27 <elliott> and, well, it's 0xF0 the attribute
21:38:47 <elliott> solution: don't have a computer that doesn't have the A20 bios routines
21:38:56 <elliott> or, just wait until I put actual A20 code in there
21:39:40 <elliott> Can someone explain why x86 is so damn register-starved?
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21:50:02 <fizzie> One of the VGA registers controls whether the high bit of the background color does "high intensity" or "blink".
21:54:58 <elliott> fizzie: Does it have a defined default?
21:56:42 <elliott> "The "Unity" user interface that debuted in Ubuntu 10.10's Netbook Edition will be standard on the next version of the Ubuntu Desktop Edition, as well. Ubuntu Desktop 11.04 will replace the Linux distribution's default GNOME environment in favor of the multitouch-enabled Unity user interface, says Canonical."
21:58:46 <olsner> ooh, http://wiki.osdev.org/Entering_Long_Mode_Directly
21:59:40 <elliott> olsner: It's not documented.
21:59:49 <elliott> The only documented way to enter long mode is via protected mode.
21:59:58 <elliott> I'd rather go through the hassle than risk things. :)
22:00:17 <fizzie> elliott: Don't know about defaults, but according to the Interrupt List you can do ax = 1003h, bx = 0000h/0001h, int 10h to disable/enable the blink bit.
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22:01:03 <elliott> fizzie: Woo, that works. Thanks.
22:01:25 <olsner> elliott: hmm, ok... well, I already have the protected mode code, so I might as well do the long mode stuff directly afterwards rather than changing the code
22:01:45 <elliott> olsner: I'm not sure whether I want long mode or not :)
22:01:53 <elliott> olsner: although more registers would be very, very, very, very, very, very nice...
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22:02:38 <olsner> you can use long mode as a simplified protected mode that accidentally also supports some 64-bit stuff
22:03:02 <elliott> olsner: how is it simplified?
22:03:33 <olsner> some things like segmentation disappeared in long mode (however much simpler that makes it)
22:03:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:04:15 <olsner> but other than that, I guess not simpler at all just different
22:04:20 <elliott> olsner: You still have paging though.
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22:05:55 <fizzie> If you want "documented", incidentally, the AMD doc 24593 (AMD64 Architecture Programmer's Manual, Volume 2: System Programming) has a "Long-Mode initialization example" assembly code snippet -- 4.5 pages, but well over half is comments -- that starts from real mode, goes to protected and from there to long. It's not the most elegant piece ever, and does things like CPUID checks for whether the long mode actually exists.
22:06:16 <elliott> My boot sector is now 214 bytes long.
22:06:34 <elliott> So I get to fill the remaining 296 bytes!
22:06:50 <elliott> olsner: hmm, doesn't the idt tend to get kinda big?
22:08:17 <fizzie> You can run things in your boot sector with that empty IDT and interrupts disabled, and then in your kernel code relocate it somewhere where you have lots of space before enabling the interrupts.
22:09:33 <elliott> fizzie: I *could*, yes, but the idea is sort of to not have to relocate things, just being able to modify the existing gdt and idt. :)
22:09:42 <elliott> Hey... How do you get the location of the GDT and IDT?
22:09:47 <elliott> Do I have to store them somewhere?
22:10:05 <olsner> have you already forgot where you put them? :)
22:10:30 <elliott> olsner: No, it's just that my kernel is compiled separately, so it can't know where the GDT and IDT are unless it can get the location somehow :)
22:10:58 <olsner> well, you can make that detail part of your boot loader|kernel interface
22:11:13 <elliott> olsner: there is no such interface :)
22:12:08 <elliott> is this "limit 0, offset 0"?
22:12:14 <elliott> great -- so i have no interrupt table at all :)
22:12:23 <olsner> yep, the limit is the first value (the 16-bit one)
22:12:34 <elliott> olsner: starting to think that maybe, just *maybe*, this won't fit inside the boot sector
22:12:38 <elliott> olsner: especially not if I do A20 the proper way
22:15:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Proper support for different topologies seems to be the Big Thing in it
22:16:35 * Phantom_Hoover decides to check the long-term evolution of the TTT with it,
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22:19:20 <fizzie> elliott: SGDT and SIDT should help you.
22:19:34 <fizzie> They're the inverse operation of LGDT/LIDT.
22:20:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, a pattern on a tubular universe with unknown-ish long-term behaviour.
22:20:23 <elliott> fizzie: Wait, I could always just point the GDT and the IDT somewhere else in memory, right?
22:20:33 <elliott> fizzie: And put stuff there in the bootloader, and then expand on it later inside my actual OS code?
22:20:59 <fizzie> I don't see why not, assuming they're low enough for the 16-bit mode code to write to.
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22:23:08 <elliott> fizzie: Well, OSes have to write to such a location anyway, so.
22:25:02 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, look for "Titanic Toroidal Traveler" at http://www.argentum.freeserve.co.uk/lex_t.htm
22:25:40 <fizzie> A curious bit of trivia: an empty interrupt table like that is how Windows on a 286 used to switch from its protected mode back to real mode; the virtual 8086 stuff and the "proper" way to get from protected to real were only added in the 386.
22:26:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: so just that, repeated forever horizontally?
22:26:18 <cpressey> you had me at "A20 is routed through the keyboard controller"
22:26:29 <elliott> cpressey: you didn't know that? :)
22:26:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't think the long-term behaviour is nearly as enigmatic as they claim, FWIW.
22:27:02 <fizzie> In the 286, you needed a reset; and reseting the processor via the RESET pin (from the keyboard controller, again...) was slow. But if you put in an empty interrupt table, then segfault, double-fault (due to missing interrupt handler) and triple-fault (due another missing interrupt handler) the CPU will reset a lot faster.
22:27:12 <elliott> cpressey: there is a "fast a20" that skips talking to the keyboard controller, and bios stuff for it
22:27:24 <elliott> cpressey: but the proper way involves talking machine code to the keyboard port.
22:27:42 <elliott> cpressey: 8042 machine code, to be precise.
22:27:54 <fizzie> (Well, the first interrupt could be just "int 3" or anything, it doesn't need to be a fault.)
22:28:15 <elliott> fizzie: Wouldn't that... reboot the computer?
22:28:49 <fizzie> elliott: Not if you patch the place where the reset ends up in; that's in real memory.
22:30:02 <fizzie> Apparently also Windows on a 386 used an invalid instruction to do a "syscall" from v86 mode, since it was the fastest way.
22:33:42 <elliott> olsner: how goes your long mode hackery? :-)
22:33:52 <elliott> I think I will go into long mode, just for simplicity.
22:34:27 <fizzie> elliott: But what about hardware task management! It's mostly gone in long mode.
22:34:35 <olsner> elliott: just leisurely reading the system programming manual
22:34:41 <pikhq> Well, that was fun. It seems that the color setting on my monitor was hella-weird.
22:34:46 <elliott> fizzie: Oh dear, I will shoot myself.
22:35:03 <fizzie> Task-State Segments and whatnot.
22:35:37 <fizzie> Oh, and more importantly, you can't go to virtual-8086 mode from long mode.
22:36:34 <olsner> always wondered about that - so you use virtualization to run real-mode code or something?
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22:37:40 <cpressey> fizzie: "hardware task management"?
22:37:44 <fizzie> olsner: Maybe you just don't run it.
22:37:56 <fizzie> olsner: "64-bit Windows versions do not include NTVDM or Windows on Windows, so there is no native support for the execution of MS-DOS or 16-bit Windows applications." (Though that was for the 64-bit XP.)
22:38:38 <cpressey> You know, I don't think I want to know.
22:38:58 <olsner> I should check how virtualization works on amd64, iirc virtualization used to rely on VM86 to run all the boot loaders etc of the guest os:es
22:39:01 <fizzie> cpressey: There's a rather complicated hardware multitasking thing (based on the segment stuff; handles register saving and so on, and privileges) that's been mostly cut off in the long mode.
22:40:04 <fizzie> As far as I know, not very many operating systems actually use it.
22:40:11 <olsner> which only works for sane boot loaders and not e.g. the OS/2 boot loader that went into unreal mode before starting the real boot loader
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22:40:26 <Phantom_Hoover> http://i55.tinypic.com/261dnav.gif seems to be their current plan for implementing spherical topologies.
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22:43:09 <fizzie> olsner: Well, the amd-64 processors still do *have* the legacy mode with all the vm86 bits, you just can't invoke them normally from long mode. I guess the virtualization control block structures let the guest be in legacy mode.
22:43:41 <olsner> fizzie: that makes sense
22:43:45 <fizzie> olsner: "To facilitate virtualization of real mode, the VMRUN instruction may legally load a guest CR0 value with PE = 0 but PG = 1"; so you can have the guest in real mode but with paging enabled.
22:44:02 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: that's hilarious
22:44:17 <fizzie> "This processor mode behaves in every way like real mode, with the exception that paging is applied."
22:44:32 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, OK, it takes a certain type of mind to find that amusing.
22:44:37 <elliott> <olsner> elliott: spelling? :)
22:44:45 <elliott> reading the x86 manual leisurely :D
22:44:57 <cpressey> olsner: so there IS a real boot loader out there that goes into unreal mode! cool.
22:45:29 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not listening to you because you are just a mirror image of the OTHER Phantom_Hoover.
22:45:42 <olsner> and OS/2 is one of the few operating systems that use more than two of x86's privilege levels ("rings")
22:46:08 <olsner> usually you have kernel mode and user mode, but OS/2 has two or three levels of kernel mode
22:46:17 <elliott> <olsner> which only works for sane boot loaders and not e.g. the OS/2 boot loader that went into unreal mode before starting the real boot loader
22:46:25 <elliott> Real that unreals to load the real.
22:47:35 <elliott> olsner: hmm, if i go into real mode, the gdt i already have will be the only one that works, right?
22:47:38 <elliott> so i only have to relocate the idt
22:48:26 <olsner> hmm? you're going into real mode now?
22:48:34 <elliott> olsner: or, wait, i'd actually want two more entries, wouldn't i? for user mode
22:48:40 <olsner> you'll load a new long-mode gdt
22:49:09 <elliott> olsner: you know what, i'll wait for you to write long mode stuff and then rip that off :)
22:49:14 <olsner> ooor, would you? I don't know if long mode even has a gdt, it doesn't have segmentation anyway
22:49:34 <elliott> olsner: it uses a flat gdt
22:49:40 <olsner> yes, long mode has a gdt and it has a different format
22:49:42 <fizzie> olsner: It does have a GDT, but the descriptors are different.
22:50:27 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Seriously, wouldn't a geodesic dome-like-thing make more sense?
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22:50:48 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> http://i55.tinypic.com/261dnav.gif seems to be their current plan for implementing spherical topologies.
22:51:19 <Phantom_Hoover> It's topology, so it makes no difference the precise shape.
22:51:34 <olsner> elliott: most of the example from osdev (the hack that skips protected mode) is also applicable for jumping from protected to long mode
22:51:44 <Phantom_Hoover> But it *is* impossible to fit any planar neighbourhood onto a sphere.
22:51:52 <elliott> olsner: copying you is so much easier though :)
22:52:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Or a projective plane, but that's stopped them even less.
22:52:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you can't cover a sphere with squares anyway, if that's what they're trying to do in theory
22:52:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oerjan proved it once :)
22:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Cubes are, after all, a topologically spherical object covered with squares
22:53:04 <olsner> elliott: but then you won't *learn*!
22:53:17 <elliott> olsner: i will, by copying your code carefully :)
22:53:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well, right
22:53:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: can't be equally-sized squares though :)
22:53:45 <cpressey> Uhhh no it's not topology exactly.
22:54:14 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, Euler characteristics, which are what oerjan's proof used, are a topological thing.
22:54:18 <fizzie> elliott: Re long-mode gdt: "This LGDT [for the 64-bit mode] is only needed if the long-mode GDT is to be located at a linear address above 4 Gbytes. If the long mode GDT is located at a 32-bit linear address, putting 64-bit descriptors in the GDT pointed by [pGDT32] -- the 32-bit GDT -- is just fine."
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22:54:44 <fizzie> You do need a 64-bit IDT, because the descriptors are of completely different size and so on.
22:55:40 <olsner> fizzie: hmm, so you overwrite the gdt with completely different data, then do a new far jump to a 64-bit segment, and it works?
22:55:54 <elliott> fizzie: Can you go into long mode with interrupts disabled?
22:56:00 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: If this can be done with "just" topology then... I don't know why they are trying
22:56:18 <elliott> If so, plan: Use the code I have now. Make it jump into long mode and mangle the GDT properly. Let the OS handle setting up an IDT.
22:56:20 <olsner> doing this with interrupts enabled seems like a very dubious idea
22:56:39 <elliott> Isn't there only one way you can have a GDT set up in long mode?
22:56:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm trying to tell them why it's impossible on the mailing list.
22:57:06 <cpressey> A geodesic dome construction might not be topologically kosher, or even geometrically kosher *really*, but it would... shoehorn what they're trying to do, onto a sphere, in a way that's "fair".
22:57:11 <elliott> link to their mailing list?
22:57:40 <fizzie> olsner: I don't know how it works: the example just says that the 32-bit GDT will need "at a minimum" "1) a CPL=0 16-bit code descriptor for this code segment", "2) a CPL=0 32/64-bit code descriptor for the 64-bit code." and "3) a CPL=0 read/write data segment, usable as a stack".
22:58:14 <cpressey> All I mean is: when we say "n neighbours" we kinda sorta really mean "n UNIQUE neighbours" and fudging that is silly. Fudge something else please.
22:58:15 <fizzie> This AMD64 example enables protected mode, but uses 16-bit protected mode code to go to long mode.
22:58:42 <olsner> right, so it just stays in the old code segment after setting protect enable?
22:59:22 <fizzie> olsner: Well, sort-of. It does a far jump, but into the "same" 16-bit code segment.
22:59:43 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, well, a 1,1 torus is legitimate enough, for reasons I'm unsure of.
23:00:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose there's also a tiling-based argument somewhere...
23:01:03 <olsner> fizzie: hmm, weird, what's the point of doing it like that?
23:01:23 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:01:41 <olsner> also, what's the difference between this new 16-bit code segment and the one inherited from real mode?
23:02:15 <fizzie> olsner: You need to do the far jump for the protected mode to actually get enabled; other than that, probably not much difference there.
23:03:08 <fizzie> olsner: Anyway, I guess it saves the need for a 32-bit code segment anywhere. It also doesn't bother with things like setting up ds/es/fs/gs in protected mode, since it jumps directly to long mode very soon after enabling protected mode.
23:04:18 <elliott> I LIKE HOW OLSNER IS GOING TO DO THIS ALL FOR ME
23:04:24 <fizzie> olsner: Is your x86 manual set the AMD or Intel one? If the AMD one (Volume 2: System Programming), it's 14.8 "Long-Mode Initialization Example" I was pulling that stuff from.
23:05:18 <olsner> aha, I'm reading AMD's document 24593 now, so I could just read this at the source instead of asking you :)
23:05:47 <fizzie> (It's a bit messy, since it has a pGDT64 pseudo-descriptor in there, but the later comments say it's not exactly needed; and it doesn't show what actually is at gdt32_base.)
23:06:13 <olsner> fizzie explains it, I write the code, elliott uses it :D
23:06:34 <cpressey> and then in a week or so i'm going to try writing something that goes into protected mode and we'll all go through all this AGAIN
23:06:42 <elliott> olsner: I totally write code too! Except my bits are the ones that don't work until you figure out what's wrong with them.
23:06:47 <elliott> cpressey: NO DUDE LONG MODE
23:06:55 <elliott> it's like protected mode but you have an aneurysm
23:07:03 <elliott> cpressey: LET ME SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU
23:07:06 <elliott> cpressey: EIGHT MORE FUCKING REGISTERS
23:07:10 <elliott> NO STUPID SEGMENTATION BULLSHIT
23:07:14 <elliott> Eight more registers! EIGHT!
23:07:20 <olsner> AND TWICE THE BITS PER REGISTER!!!
23:07:26 <elliott> That's 15 general-purpose 64-bit registers!
23:07:31 <elliott> Suddenly X86 ISN'T SO SHITTY ANYMORE
23:07:56 <olsner> it's the glazing on the turd
23:08:18 <cpressey> I wonder how many systems there are that actually support long mode, but not "fast A20"
23:08:26 <cpressey> are manufacturers really so weird?
23:08:35 <elliott> cpressey: Just use the BIOS to do it :P
23:08:44 <elliott> cpressey: You can disable Fast A20 in the BIOS sometimes.
23:08:49 <cpressey> i fully plan to, that's what the BIOS is *for*
23:08:52 <elliott> Sometimes it's disabled by default.
23:09:56 <fizzie> Anyway, when it comes to the 64-bit GDT: it needs to have a TSS descriptor (for the single 64-bit task there can be), as many code descriptors as you wish (they still exist, though mostly just to determine if code's running in 64-bit mode or the 32-bit compatibility-mode-in-long-mode), and any data-segment descriptors needed by 32-bit code. (In 64-bit code, ds/es/ss values are ignored; for fs/gs it's.. complicated.)
23:13:09 <olsner> and this TSS thing is what you use to leave kernel mode and run in user mode for a while?
23:13:23 <fizzie> In 64-bit mode, it seems that it ignores pretty much everything in the descriptors except a few flag bits; I guess that's what they mean with the comment in the example that you don't necessarily need to set up a different GDT, they're compatible enough.
23:15:40 <olsner> i.e. as long as you're not retarded and set non-0 offsets or non-4G limits you can use the exact same segment descriptors for both modes?
23:16:09 <fizzie> olsner: It doesn't even matter if you set non-0 offsets or fancy limits, they're ignored in 64-bit code.
23:16:53 <olsner> they should have a segment retardation fault or something for it instead :)
23:17:05 <elliott> So how does all this fit in with a higher half kernel?
23:17:16 <fizzie> I really don't know about the TSS; "Although the hardware task-switching mechanism is not supported in long mode, a 64-bit task state segment (TSS) must still exist. System software must create at least one 64-bit TSS for use after activating long mode, and it must execute the LTR instruction, in 64-bit mode, to load the TR register with a pointer to the 64-bit TSS that serves both 64-bit-mode programs and compatibility-mode programs."
23:17:44 <olsner> elliott: what does "higher half" mean?
23:18:49 <fizzie> I think for that you just need to mostly set the paging tables properly. I profess to complete ignorance on the privilege level changes: it seems to be a whole other esoteric mess of call gates, interrupt gates and trap gates.
23:18:59 <elliott> olsner: http://wiki.osdev.org/Higher_Half_Kernel
23:19:01 <elliott> It is traditional and generally good to have your kernel mapped in every user process. Linux, for instance (and many other Unices) reside at the virtual addresses 0xC0000000 - 0xFFFFFFFF of every address space, leaving the range 0x00000000 - 0xBFFFFFFF for user code, data, stacks, libraries, etc. Kernels that have such design are said to be "in the higher half" by opposition to kernels that use lowest virtual addresses for themselves, and leave h
23:19:01 <elliott> igher addresses for the applications.
23:19:22 <elliott> http://wiki.osdev.org/Higher_Half_Kernel
23:19:27 <elliott> If you don't want to enable paging right from the start, it is still possible to have your kernel appearing in the higher half. Tim Robinson's GDT Trick works by using segmentation to select an appropriate base for the code and data segments. Say you've loaded your kernel at 0x10000 and we want it to appear at 0xC0000000, then all we need to do is find a base _X_, such as _X_ + 0xC0000000 = 0x10000. The bootloader will then initialize the GDT wit
23:19:27 <elliott> h cs.base = 0x40010000 = ds.base. This also means that special care must be taken for VRAM (video RAM) access, as 0xB8000 is now somewhere above 1GB. Either use a special 0-based additional data-segment or use
23:19:44 <elliott> olsner: I seem to recall reading something about entering long mode while using that insane GDT trick.
23:19:52 <elliott> http://wiki.osdev.org/Higher_Half_With_GDT
23:20:27 <fizzie> That doesn't sound like something that would work in long mode.
23:20:38 <fizzie> Given that GDT bases are ignored.
23:21:13 <elliott> fizzie: You do that and *then* do it properly with paging in long mode.
23:21:24 <elliott> Aw hell, I have no idea. I just parrot the wiki.
23:21:39 <cpressey> that page instantly makes me hate OS programming for some reason
23:21:42 <fizzie> Right, but it doesn't sound like it would help you anything assuming you want to get long mode done before jumping to the kernel.
23:22:03 <fizzie> I mean, as long as you don't actually jump into the kernel code, it doesn't really matter at what address it appears to be.
23:22:14 <elliott> fizzie: I realised that a second ago :)
23:22:31 <fizzie> Of course you might run out of bytes in your boot sector in setting up paging. :p
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23:23:06 <olsner> obviously you'd generate the page tables for the regions you need access to during startup
23:23:34 <olsner> didn't look into the details, but the direct-to-long-mode page had something like that
23:24:14 <elliott> i understand, now, why people like unreal mode
23:24:21 <fizzie> Paging in long mode is so simple, too: http://zem.fi/~fis/paging.png
23:25:11 <fizzie> Page frames, page tables, page directory tables, page directory pointer tables and finally the "page map level 4 table" on top.
23:26:11 <fizzie> Maybe you should just opt for not using virtual memory or privilege levels; who needs that sort of stuff anyway?
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23:26:54 <olsner> what, of course you must have proper kernel/user mode, memory protection and task switching
23:27:23 <fizzie> To SAVE you from YOURSELF, of course.
23:27:30 <fizzie> Or BADLY BEHAVED CODE, anyway.
23:27:37 <elliott> Doesn't matter in a lisp OS at least :)
23:27:44 <elliott> In fact running everything in kernel mode is beneficial there.
23:28:14 <olsner> oh, you're building a lisp os? :)
23:28:28 <elliott> I'd like to get the freaking boot sector written first.
23:29:18 <elliott> There's only ~1.59361 * 10^1228 boot sectors, anyway.
23:32:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:37:08 <cpressey> I once designed a protected memory system for the Z80 (in hardware)
23:38:21 <cpressey> A clock would periodically reset the processor and switch the lower half of memory to a new bank
23:39:15 <cpressey> I forget exactly how, but the plan was to write a JMP to the address you were last executing, into the first few bytes of your task's bank, so you could continue executing
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23:39:50 <cpressey> Maybe there was an interrupt issued just before the reset, then your code was supposed to do this then enable the reset
23:40:05 <elliott> cpressey: all that for protected memory :)
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23:41:12 <cpressey> elliott: yes. also considering there is an "enhanced Z80" out there somewhere which basically does all this in a chip :)
23:41:57 <fizzie> The DS, which doesn't really do paging or have an MMU, still has a rudimentary "memory protection unit" thing that can define the access privileges (and caching behaviour) to was-it-8 mostly arbitrary ranges of physical addresses.
23:43:26 <olsner> wtf, my boot loader/os project has a CVS dir that points to a cvsroot with a windows path
23:43:58 <olsner> it is from 2002 though, I was younger then
23:44:47 <elliott> `addquote <olsner> it is from 2002 though, I was younger then
23:45:04 <elliott> olsner: wait i just adapted code developed on windows and cvs?
23:45:45 <olsner> no, it can never have been developed on windows, the build script is very much unix
23:46:06 <olsner> but it was *stored* on windows at some point
23:53:35 * elliott tries to decipher why his vga display fun isn't working
23:55:28 <Gregor> Cat + melodica = insane cat
00:09:34 <fizzie> It's not the length of your general-purpose registers, it's how you use 'em.
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00:11:43 <cpressey> And the label reads "General purpose register -- To be used for general purposes only"
00:13:05 <cpressey> (the "Enhanced Z80", ftr, is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zilog_Z80000)
00:13:47 <cpressey> Hm, not Z80-compatible, though.
00:13:57 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:14:03 <fizzie> There's the eZ80, too.
00:14:07 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:14:23 <fizzie> No on-chip MMU, but more address bits and so on.
00:20:41 <fizzie> Oh, and the Z180 has some sort of on-chip memory banking thing, but I don't know if you can (ab)use that for memory protection or not.
00:21:33 <olsner> haha, long mode would change the behaviour of NOP to not be no-op, unless they gave it a special case
00:22:15 <olsner> ("NOP" is actually xchg eax,eax - but 32-bit operations are supposed to clear the upper bits of the 64-bit register)
00:24:03 <pikhq> It is fucking *ridiculous* how much better video looks when you go and calibrate your monitor right.
00:24:09 <pikhq> Absolutely, positively fucking ridiculous.
00:25:06 <Sgeo> pikhq, any websites that can help with that?
00:25:14 <elliott> olsner: they do give it a special case :P
00:25:31 <elliott> olsner: Say, does x86 actually have a specific nop instruction?
00:25:38 <Sgeo> I remember seeing a page once...
00:25:45 <olsner> elliott: yes, they special-case it
00:25:54 <pikhq> Sgeo: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/index.php
00:26:00 <fizzie> Well, it does have a specific NOP now.
00:26:15 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that I have not the faintest idea how to adjust stuff on this thing
00:26:19 <olsner> if you really want the swap-with-self-and-clear-upper-bits you have to use a different encoding of the same instruction
00:26:37 <cpressey> fizzie: I wonder if it was the Z180 I was thinking of...
00:26:39 <fizzie> I wouldn't be surprised if it's been special-cased for a while now.
00:28:08 <Sgeo> How do I adjust contrast on a laptop?
00:28:14 <cpressey> Unlike the Z80,000, I can actually find units of Z180 for sale.
00:29:21 <cpressey> http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ZiLOG/Z8S18010PSG/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtp5ziQ9mm%252bAtzjy5qS0%252bme DIP-60 :)
00:29:22 <Sgeo> Might Windows's built-in calibration stuff be any help?
00:29:28 <Sgeo> I can disable what the OS does, right?
00:29:28 <pikhq> What's most important is getting your gamma set straight...
00:30:13 <Sgeo> How do I get the monitor's menu on this thing?
00:30:35 <pikhq> The gamma correction should be in your OS. I *highly* doubt your monitor can help you.
00:30:49 <cpressey> That totally must be what I was thinking of, although fizzie is absolutely correct that it's not clear if the "MMU" actually protects memory, or just pages it.
00:31:06 <Sgeo> Right now I'm looking at color calibration
00:31:18 <Sgeo> "press the menu button for the display"
00:31:29 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:32:04 <Sgeo> Oh, gamma doesn't require that
00:33:01 <Gregor> I DO NOT PLAY WIND INSTRUMENTS
00:34:18 <pikhq> Gregor: Fix that, you monster.
00:34:45 <Sgeo> My dad's asking me to look for the best mp4 player
00:34:56 <Sgeo> All I can think is VLC, but he's asking me to look for writeups
00:35:09 <Sgeo> Does it even make sense for different players to have different qualities
00:35:19 <Gregor> pikhq: I'm gasping for breath because I'm playing a melodica :P
00:35:22 <pikhq> Just like for every other video format.
00:35:30 <Gregor> pikhq: Specifically, I'm playing ZEE3 on a melodica.
00:35:43 <Gregor> While wearing a retainer because this mouthpiece is effing up my teeth X-D
00:36:37 <Sgeo> Do different video players even play the same file at different video quality? That makes no sense to me
00:37:17 <pikhq> Some video players actually do suck ass at quality.
00:38:43 <pikhq> What matters is generally how it actually outputs to screen, though. Aside from a small handful of cases, they will all get the exact same raw video stream from a video.
00:39:00 <pikhq> (there's some players with *broken decoders*.)
00:40:02 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
00:40:26 <elliott> <Sgeo> My dad's asking me to look for the best mp4 player
00:40:26 <elliott> <Sgeo> All I can think is VLC, but he's asking me to look for writeups
00:40:33 <elliott> Tell him to take the suggestion or leave it.
00:40:53 <Sgeo> He's satisfied knowing that I asked, I think
00:42:24 <elliott> I wonder if anyone still maintains KDE 3.
00:43:33 <elliott> The Trinity Desktop Environment project, organised and led by Timothy Pearson, Kubuntu release manager for KDE 3.5[9], has released Trinity to pick up where the KDE e.V. left. It is currently trying to keep the KDE 3.5 branch alive, attempting to fix bugs during the process, enhance it with additional features and make it more compatible with recent hardware.
00:43:42 <elliott> This project aims to keep the KDE3.5 computing style alive, as well as polish off any rough edges that were present as of KDE 3.5.10. Along the way, new useful features will be added to keep the environment up-to-date.
00:43:45 <elliott> http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/
00:44:01 <pikhq> And it's in Debian!
00:45:06 <elliott> It's a separate repository.
00:45:34 <elliott> Bit of an unfortunate name, what with the nuclear test.
00:45:36 <elliott> pikhq: http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/wiki/pub/Documentation/Releases_3_5_12/sm_kde3_5_maverick_livecd_konqueror.png
00:47:31 <Sgeo> What's so bad about KDE4?
00:47:38 <Sgeo> And is anyone keeping KDE2 alive?
00:47:45 -!- augur has joined.
00:47:57 <Sgeo> Is KDE4 the Vista of KDE or something?
00:47:58 <Gregor> Sgeo: The UI. The fact that it lost all the wonderful customizability of KDE3 while gaining ... retard OS-X-Vista-ness.
00:47:58 <elliott> Everything is bad about KDE 4.
00:48:10 <Gregor> KDE4 is why I switched to XFCE.
00:48:18 <elliott> Gregor: The customisability hasn't been lost that much. But the applications are terrible.
00:48:28 <pikhq> Sgeo: The backend libraries of KDE4 seem decent. But the UI is terrible.
00:48:31 <Gregor> elliott: Do I have to get my LCARS screenshot out :P
00:48:37 <elliott> I could vaguely -- sort of -- understand KDE users in the days of 3.
00:48:47 <elliott> Now everyone who uses KDE is just an idiot and I don't talk to them. :P
00:49:23 <elliott> It's a software compilation now!
00:49:25 <pikhq> KDE 3 was usable. It took tweaking to get it nice, but it was *usable*.
00:49:36 <elliott> "October 30, 2007 (The INTERNET)." -- KDE press release
00:49:42 <pikhq> KDE 4... It's damned near impossible to tell it to stop sucking.
00:49:43 <elliott> WE COME FROM THE INTERNETS
00:50:32 <elliott> "The observers set up betting pools on the results of the test. Predictions ranged from zero (a complete dud) to 18 kilotons of TNT (predicted by physicist I. I. Rabi, who won the bet[24]), to destruction of the state of New Mexico, to ignition of the atmosphere and incineration of the entire planet." -- [[Trinity (nuclear test)]]
00:50:52 <elliott> "I'm gonna go with 'what we've done here will cause New Mexico to cease to exist'."
00:51:08 <olsner> I wonder who expected to cash in on the planetary incineration bet
00:51:23 -!- Mathnerd314 has left (?).
00:52:34 <Ilari> Wonder what they though the reaction (ignition of atmosphere) would be...
00:52:52 <Ilari> Obiviously something exotermic...
00:52:59 <Gregor> Hard to claim your part of the pool when you bet the world would be destroyed :P
00:53:45 <olsner> maybe if it destroyed new mexico and more than 50% of the rest of the world, but not the part where you are
00:53:59 <olsner> then you'd be closest but not correct
00:54:06 * Sgeo would say that that's worse than Hitler
00:54:11 <elliott> Assuming you weren't there when it happened :P
00:54:18 <Gregor> GODWIN'S LAW HAS BEEN INVOKED
00:54:20 <elliott> Sgeo: "Destroying the planet is worse than what Hitler did.
00:54:29 <elliott> Hitler, like, DESTROYED ANDROMEDA
00:54:40 <elliott> OH WAIT NO he just killed a few million people.
00:56:27 * Sgeo performs CPR on the conversation
00:57:29 <olsner> I wonder what's in all these reserved control registers in x86
00:58:03 <olsner> you can use 0,2,3,4,8 but 1, 5-7 and 9-15 are reserved
00:58:25 <Ilari> Uh.. CR8? Never heard about it before...
00:59:13 <olsner> it's the task priority register
01:04:46 -!- Gregor has changed nick to window.
01:08:41 -!- window has changed nick to Gregor.
01:11:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:35:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:49:54 <elliott> olsner: you're allowed to use them? Awesome.
01:49:58 <elliott> More general-purpose registers!
01:50:08 <elliott> allowed to use them for their purpose
01:50:15 <elliott> rather than not being allowed to use them at all
01:51:37 <elliott> Gregor types out his prompt when talking to a javascript console.
01:52:01 <olsner> perhaps Gregor plays both parts
01:52:26 <Gregor> olsner: Oh, I PLAY both PARTS *WINK WINK*
01:52:37 <elliott> What Gregor is saying is: sex.
01:53:02 <pikhq> elliott: What about it?
01:53:22 <elliott> pikhq: I've remembered why I have a bad taste in my mouth about it.
01:54:14 <elliott> pikhq: They funded XMMS development for quite a few years and owned the domain xmms.org, which the XMMS project used. Indeed, it was used in the present day, I think it had the XMMS2 site on it, and many XMMS developers used it for email and personal webspace.
01:54:20 * Sgeo attempts to determine if he needs to bring photo ID tomorrow
01:54:25 <elliott> pikhq: Then 4Front Technologies, developers of OSS, decided to sell it.
01:54:28 <elliott> pikhq: To a cybersquatter.
01:54:31 <elliott> pikhq: Without asking the XMMS team.
01:54:38 <elliott> pikhq: They then emailed the XMMS team asking for a webpage dump.
01:54:44 <elliott> pikhq: http://tobias.hieta.se/2010/04/28/what-ever-happened-to-xmms-org/ for the full, gory story.
01:55:29 <Sgeo> There's been debates about whether it's ok to require photo ID
01:56:45 <Sgeo> Found something about Minnesota
01:56:59 <elliott> Sgeo: I am pretty sure they have no constitutional right to demand photo ID...
01:57:02 <pikhq> elliott: The fuck.
01:57:11 <pikhq> elliott: Doesn't stop them.
01:57:46 <elliott> So Sgeo I take it you are voting for the Republicans
01:57:58 <Sgeo> elliott, I know you're joking
01:58:23 <Sgeo> You're in your "try to confuse Sgeo" mode
01:58:27 <pikhq> elliott: You'd have to be braindead to vote for them.
01:58:52 <elliott> Sgeo: So, wait. You're *not* voting for the Republicans?
01:59:09 <Sgeo> I'm not voting straight party whatever, though. Just in regards to people who I know about. Which turns out leaving me supporting all Democrats this election
01:59:33 <elliott> Long live the two-party system!
01:59:35 <Sgeo> Although I don't know as much about Peter King's opponent as I'd like to
02:00:05 <Sgeo> All I know is that Mr. King voted against HCR
02:01:21 <elliott> US health care reform: Because if you don't look to closely, it sort of resembles single-payer health care!
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02:02:15 <Sgeo> As far as I'm aware, it's mostly regulations on what insurance companies can and cannot do
02:02:40 <elliott> Plus *fines* for not having insurance, unless I'm grossly mistaken.
02:02:53 <elliott> Which, y'know, is sort of *entirely great* for the *horrible insurance companies*.
02:03:20 <pikhq> elliott: On the other hand, the bastards can't drop anybody.
02:03:37 <elliott> And all of this is entirely stupid because you guys could *just have single-payer*.
02:03:42 <Sgeo> Aren't the fines cheaper than insurance...?
02:03:45 <pikhq> Still, bit of an ineffectual "reform".
02:04:04 <pikhq> And yet, it's easy to see why it is how it is.
02:04:24 <pikhq> People think that *this* was somehow going to send people to the gas chambers.
02:04:29 <pikhq> And those morons vote.
02:04:34 <Gregor> Killing the entire insurance industry outright wouldn't be good.
02:04:38 <Sgeo> Making the fines essentially worthless
02:04:53 <Gregor> I'm not talking about good for healthcare.
02:05:01 <Gregor> I'm talking about good for the economy, good for jobs.
02:05:14 <elliott> Which, as we all know, are more important than healthcare.
02:05:22 <pikhq> Gregor: It's a massive economic inefficiency, y'know.
02:05:43 <Gregor> pikhq: And a massive economic sinkhole would be better?
02:05:54 <Gregor> I'm not claiming we can't do anything, I'm claiming anything we do needs to be gradual.
02:05:55 <pikhq> Gregor: That's what we *have*.
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02:06:09 <pikhq> Gregor: We dump money in there that goes to kill people.
02:06:46 <Gregor> pikhq: Yes. But it's money that goes SOMEWHERE. As opposed to cutting off the industry outright and watching thousands of employed people flail.
02:06:56 <Gregor> Currently-employed, that is
02:07:40 <elliott> <Gregor> The US is so fucked up that we have a choice between killing people with massive megacorporations and killing people with unemployment.
02:07:47 <Sgeo> I suppose if the Democrats regain power, they're not going to bother fixing the fix of healthcare?
02:07:57 <Gregor> elliott: Yes. Exactly.
02:07:57 <elliott> <Gregor> Because, in the US, unemployment equals death. Did I mention we're fucked up?
02:08:15 <elliott> Sgeo: Uhh, they're the ones who wanted it so... no.
02:08:19 <Gregor> elliott: Clearly what I'm arguing is to do nothing whatsoever.
02:08:21 <pikhq> Sgeo: Which is an improvement over the Republicans, who intend to repeal the fix and then go under a witch hunt.
02:08:22 <Gregor> elliott: I mean obviously.
02:08:27 <Gregor> elliott: There's nothing else I could be arguing here at all.
02:08:33 <elliott> Gregor: I don't disagree :)
02:08:36 <elliott> Sgeo: You do realise the Democrats are only *slightly* to the left of the Republicans?
02:08:51 <elliott> I am continually amazed that Americans actually buy in to the two-party thing.
02:08:53 <pikhq> Gregor: How's about a 10 or 20 year migration to a public health system?
02:09:00 <Gregor> pikhq: That makes sense.
02:09:06 <Gregor> Preferably closer to 10.
02:09:17 <elliott> Gradually but not slowly extend Medicare to cover pretty much everyone.
02:09:26 <elliott> Insurance companies go "but with us, you get NICER coverage!".
02:09:29 <elliott> They survive because of idiots.
02:09:31 <pikhq> elliott: That's the easiest way to do it, yes.
02:09:34 <elliott> Then extend Medicare to everyone in one go.
02:09:35 <Sgeo> I think it might be possible that the broken fix might be WORSE than no fix
02:09:44 <elliott> Insurance companies cry, shrivel up, and die, but only after stagnating over the previous few years.
02:09:48 <elliott> OMG CAN I BE PRESIDENT NOW
02:09:57 <Gregor> Exactly what's happening to the music industry :P
02:10:02 <pikhq> Sgeo: At least now the insurance companies can't drop you because you became too expensive.
02:10:10 <elliott> Gregor: ...what's music medicare? X-D
02:10:19 <Gregor> elliott: The Pirate Bay
02:10:33 <elliott> Gregor: The Pirate Bay hasn't worked in ages :P
02:10:49 <elliott> Sure, you can search, but their tracker is down and OpenBittorrent never has any peers.
02:11:01 <elliott> They're great for getting .torrent files from torrentz.com, though!
02:11:26 <Gregor> OK, I'll change my answer to "torrents" then X_X
02:11:41 <elliott> pikhq: By the way: http://www.devmazumdar.com/
02:11:45 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, but you can just generate magnet links from there.
02:12:05 <elliott> "As a gesture of gratitude for his long-lasting generosity (he “invested a lot of money in XMMS.org”, after all), we will be hosting the XMMS project on DEVMAZUMDAR.COM from now on.
02:12:05 <elliott> Thank you so much for everything, Dev."
02:12:23 <Sgeo> There will be people who delay getting insurance until they need it, due to ineffectual fines, which raises prices. What good is insurance that covers any expense if no one can pay for the insurance? (Note: I am not an economist, nor do I know to what extent prices would rise)
02:12:52 <elliott> "I also bought up zinf.org for the same reason. I want to use either or both of these brands to make a new media player that leads the market not follows. I know there are other projects out there but we can re-invent xmms."
02:13:00 <elliott> Dammit people, I bought your domain! Drop XMMS2 NOW and make my perfect media player!
02:13:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: BTW, it's actually a tax that you don't have to pay if you have insurance...
02:13:32 <elliott> Sgeo: Health insurance companies are more in the "wtf" category than the "economics" category.
02:13:41 <elliott> Since demand for healthcare is, uh, *infinite*.
02:14:13 <Sgeo> That site claims there's no guarantee that xmms.org downloads don't contain malware
02:14:14 <pikhq> Sgeo: And anyways, healthcare is one of those things that just plain does not function at all under free market conditions.
02:14:38 <elliott> Sgeo: There is no such guarantee, since a cybersquatter owns it.
02:14:58 <Sgeo> ...according to this devmazumdar person, or according to reality?
02:15:00 <elliott> olsner: i should totally write my OS in Literate Assembly.
02:15:06 <elliott> Sgeo: devmazumdar does not own devmazumdar.com.
02:15:12 <elliott> Sgeo: Try READING the TEXT on the PAGE with your EYES.
02:15:23 <olsner> elliott: you should totally do that
02:15:42 <elliott> Sgeo: Our dear friend Dev Mazumdar, from 4Front Technologies, sold our XMMS.ORG domain without asking the XMMS community.
02:15:43 <Sgeo> How do you determine which is real and which is lying?
02:15:44 <elliott> As a gesture of gratitude for his long-lasting generosity (he “invested a lot of money in XMMS.org”, after all), we will be hosting the XMMS project on DEVMAZUMDAR.COM from now on.
02:15:44 <elliott> Thank you so much for everything, Dev.
02:15:57 <elliott> Sgeo: Considering that message is from the *XMMS team* and is also on their *official blog*
02:16:01 <elliott> you'd have to be a moron to believe the cybersquatter.
02:16:06 <elliott> olsner: so have you got long mode working yet EH
02:17:57 <olsner> elliott: no, I'm still leisurely reading the manual
02:18:38 <olsner> probably would've gotten it done without knowing what I was really doing by now, but ehm, that'd be less fun
02:19:14 <olsner> unfortunately the example seems to be right at the end of the manual, like 400 pages away
02:19:28 <olsner> GOD FORBID I just skip to it
02:22:59 <olsner> the manual keeps luring me into reading about task switching and stuff, which isn't strictly required to get into long mode and write some data to vga memory
02:27:14 <elliott> http://www.posix.nl/linuxassembly/nasmdochtml/nasmdoca.html omg this is the best x86 reference ever
02:29:10 <elliott> olsner: i so totally want to write it in literate asm but, lack of tools
02:29:45 <olsner> you don't have sed installed? :D
02:30:42 <elliott> olsner: uh, literate programming also involves rearranging code
02:30:47 <elliott> olsner: also: emacs syntax highlighting, etc.
02:35:04 <elliott> olsner: I might try it with noweb.
02:35:13 <elliott> olsner: But really, I'd like to get into long mode first and I need YOU for that, slacker
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02:37:51 <elliott> Sgeo: I do that all the time.
02:42:25 <elliott> Actually I don't think I like noweb, LaTeX isn't really ideal for what I'd like to use literate programming for.
02:44:35 <olsner> I'm not convinced about this literacy thing
02:45:10 <olsner> tried to read tex once, I couldn't find the program for all the text
02:45:11 <elliott> olsner: I'm not either, but it would be fun to have a literate bootloader.
02:45:19 <elliott> olsner: oh, TeX's use is all very archaic
02:45:26 <elliott> olsner: I mean, the Pascal doesn't compile on any modern Pascal compiler!
02:45:36 <elliott> olsner: And WEB itself is basically only distributed with TeX distributions.
02:45:49 <Sgeo> I think it's safe to say that Factor does the opposite of literate programming
02:45:50 <elliott> olsner: you mean you couldn't find the code snippets?
02:45:57 <Sgeo> Code and documentation are in separate file
02:46:11 <elliott> olsner: Well, you're not meant to :)
02:46:29 <elliott> Of course literate programming is basically designed for one person to write and everyone else to read...
02:47:59 <olsner> exactly, I couldn't find the code snippets in all the text... and I'm not meant to? huh?
02:48:53 <elliott> olsner: You're meant to read the text, not skip past it.
02:49:14 <pikhq> olsner: It's a book that just happens to be executable.
02:50:59 <olsner> elliott: IIRC, I just wanted to find the tex interpreter to figure out how the programming language in tex worked without accidentally learning any typography
02:51:17 <elliott> olsner: Knuth doesn't want you to. It's an ego thing. :)
02:51:35 <elliott> olsner: Of course one could always have the typography engine and the programming language in separate chapters.
03:00:07 <elliott> olsner: huh, "xor x, x" is slower than "mov x, 0" now
03:01:32 <olsner> mov is still longer since you end up with a 4-byte constant
03:02:30 <elliott> in my boot sector at least
03:02:37 <elliott> also "inc x inc x" is shorter than "add x, 2" :)
03:02:46 <elliott> didn't expect that one, but i guess it's obvious in retrospect
03:03:31 <pikhq> elliott: It actually depends on the CPU which one is shorter.
03:03:38 <pikhq> elliott: Erm, faster.
03:03:48 <elliott> well, in modern tymes mov x, 0 is faster
03:04:50 <elliott> It's because Intel were like "lol xor is so rare, fuck that".
03:04:53 <pikhq> The UK only has 5 OTA analog TV stations possible in their system?
03:05:03 <elliott> pikhq: Um, no, I think we *could* have a sixth.
03:05:12 <elliott> pikhq: But the government went "okay, that's it" after the fifth.
03:05:23 <elliott> pikhq: And a lot of people still can't pick up Five. :)
03:05:45 <elliott> Lol, they've renamed it back to Channel 5.
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03:06:52 <elliott> pikhq: QUICK WHAT SHOULD I CALL MY TEENY TINY LISP INTERPRETER
03:06:56 <elliott> STIGMATISM, SIBILANT OR INTERDENTAL
03:07:31 <Gregor> How about IHEARTBRACKETS
03:07:40 <pikhq> elliott: The North American analog assignment currently allows for about 30 stations.
03:07:48 <pikhq> elliott: Used to allow for 45 or so.
03:07:51 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah but you guys are retarded.
03:08:07 <Gregor> elliott: I call them parentheses, I thought you guys called them brackets X-P
03:08:30 <elliott> Gregor: () parentheses, [] brackets, {} braces, <> angle brackets
03:08:43 <elliott> Gregor: It is the only terminology I accept. :)
03:08:59 <elliott> Gregor: [] can also be referred to as "square brackets" to disambiguate.
03:09:03 <Gregor> elliott: I call them "curly braces" in spite of their being no other braces, but otherwise that's what I use :P
03:09:30 <elliott> But if I'm talking quickly or whatever, I'd truncate square/curly.
03:09:56 <elliott> pikhq: OMG I should totally make my Lisp run on the bare metal.
03:12:14 <Sgeo> curly brackets
03:12:42 <pikhq> elliott: Seriously though, 6 stations being *at all possible*?
03:12:48 <elliott> pikhq: I think there's more...
03:12:57 <pikhq> elliott: What, do you have gigahertz allocations?
03:12:58 <elliott> Gregor: This was captioned "Tiny Core Linux 2.9": http://www.desktoplinux.com/files/misc/tinycorelinux_v29.jpg
03:13:03 <elliott> pikhq: I don't think so :P
03:13:09 <elliott> pikhq: But I think there could be more than 6.
03:13:41 <elliott> Gregor: You see, they're installing Tiny Core Linux from Windows!
03:13:50 <elliott> To be fair, a real screenshot followed, captioned "Tiny Core Linux 2.4.1 Yep, it's minimalist.".
03:15:05 <elliott> olsner: I NEED LONG MODE FOR MY LISPING
03:18:25 <Sgeo> HOT SEXY SEX BITS
03:18:27 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/sex_byte_determination.png
03:19:27 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> HOT SEXY SEX BITS
03:19:37 <HackEgo> 252|<Sgeo> HOT SEXY SEX BITS
03:19:45 <pikhq> elliott: Doesn't seem like it.
03:19:58 <elliott> pikhq: You thought it was five before I said no :P
03:21:08 <Sgeo> There's only one sex byte there, it's the byte that's 01 on the top and 37 on the bottom
03:21:23 <Sgeo> But the sex byte is repeated a multitude of times throughout the files
03:22:26 <pikhq> elliott: Aaah, PAL-I has significantly more *possible* but the bandwidth allocation is such that you can't squeeze more than 6 in.
03:25:06 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/ten_crea_sex_bytes_and_much_more_to_go.png At the point shown in the file, I had found 10 sex bytes
03:26:17 <catseye> say, hypothetically, that i wanted to code in the microcode that underlies the x86 code on a modern machine. what would i have to go through to do that?
03:26:18 <elliott> has Sgeo actually managed to be nostalgic about himself?
03:26:26 <elliott> catseye: you can't -- it's read-only
03:26:39 <elliott> catseye: also, afaik, not public
03:27:08 <elliott> Linux and FreeBSD(on x86 PCs) have a patch program that fixes botched CPU microcode. Of all UNIX (and UNIX-like) operating systems on Intel (and Intel x86-compatible) PCs there has been an ongoing requirement to patch erroneous microcode since the FPU multiplier problem that was endemic to some Pentiums.
03:27:15 <elliott> Several Intel CPUs in the IA32 architecture family have writable microcode.[10] This has allowed bugs in the Intel Core 2 microcode and Intel Xeon microcode to be fixed in software, rather than requiring the entire chip to be replaced. Such fixes can be installed by Linux,[11] FreeBSD[12] Microsoft Windows,[13] or the motherboard BIOS.[14]
03:27:23 <elliott> catseye: http://www.intel.com/Assets/PDF/manual/253668.pdf
03:27:34 <catseye> if you can patch you YOU CAN CODE IN IT
03:29:10 <catseye> hm, i need to build a pdf reader here don't i
03:30:20 <elliott> catseye: evince is very nice.
03:30:34 <elliott> epdfview or whatever it is is really shit
03:30:40 <elliott> evince is worth the few gnome dependencies :)
03:31:04 <Sgeo> http://z15.invisionfree.com/CC_Developers/index.php?showtopic=8
03:31:07 <Sgeo> That's my code
03:31:20 <Sgeo> (for the "Anyway, this is the script for the robot toy norn")
03:31:28 <Sgeo> Well, except the stuff I may have borrowed myself
03:32:17 <Sgeo> Which is probably everything but the first three lines, the born, and the vocb
03:32:39 <Sgeo> Oh, probably duplicating the physics stuff from the robot toy
03:32:42 <Sgeo> I am not Grendel man
03:32:47 <Sgeo> he copied my code
03:32:55 <Sgeo> I don't think he claimed it as his own though
03:35:21 <Sgeo> From that thread, Grendel Man made http://www.seeyou7.net/creatures/creatures3/breeds/grendelman/images/g-rainbowsharkling.html
03:35:45 <Sgeo> "This will cause problems with the GUI and the Creature Selection Menu, so I included an agent by Sgeo that fixes this issue - or at least with DS."
03:36:39 <catseye> hypothetically i would probably patch the sse instructions or something else i could, in theory at least, do without (make sure everything on the machine is built WITHOUT them, first)
03:36:43 <elliott> OMG HE MENTIONED YOUR NAME'#5;46
03:36:56 <elliott> catseye: yeah uh, everything uses sse nowadays
03:36:59 <elliott> catseye: maybe the latest version of sse
03:37:09 <catseye> elliott: well you can tell the compiler to not generate it, right?
03:37:16 <elliott> catseye: I would overwrite the BCD instructions.
03:37:29 <catseye> that's also a good candidate, but there are fewer of them.
03:37:44 <catseye> but i would only want to turn them into brainfuck anyway, so sure.
03:38:02 <elliott> catseye: Surely you could assign unimplemented instructions?
03:38:07 <elliott> I imagine it looks them up anyway. At least some of them.
03:38:25 <catseye> i don't know. possibly you could.
03:38:39 <elliott> catseye: what about 6502 microcode
03:39:47 <catseye> elliott: that seems less appealing somehow
03:39:58 <catseye> 6502's don't deserve having their brains rewired
03:39:58 <elliott> catseye: you were meant to go "OMG 6502 HAD MICROCODE?"
03:40:47 <pikhq> Y'know, I'm convinced that the bastards who designed analog TV were, well, bastards.
03:41:04 <pikhq> Why couldn't they have made everything simpler and just had 24 fps content go over the air?
03:41:23 <elliott> catseye: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSE4a#SSE4a
03:41:32 <elliott> five AMD-only instructions you could maybe reassign on your intel processor
03:43:11 <pikhq> Just... 24 fps progressive video. As already existed in large quantities.
03:43:44 <elliott> Has anyone gone through their day without a single crazy music video advertising a long-awaited Lisp book?
03:43:51 <elliott> I will now fix that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM1Zb3xmvMc
03:49:35 <olsner> elliott: I am now enabling paging in long mode and it fails when trying to read the next instruction (the page is not in the page tables)
03:49:58 <elliott> olsner: even if the next one is an appropriate jump?
03:50:05 <elliott> also, simple solution: add it to the page tables!
03:50:35 <olsner> it's *supposed* to be in the page table, obviously
03:50:55 <elliott> olsner: have you tried copying their example code more directly? :P
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03:56:50 <elliott> olsner: haha, oh boy; if my kernel gets bigger than 512k/1 meg or so, my bootloader will have to load it in unreal mode
03:57:26 <Sgeo_> Dear laptop battery: Fuck you in the ... thingies
03:58:03 <Sgeo_> I was trying to think of the names of the + and -
03:58:09 <Sgeo_> terminals? electrodes?
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04:04:47 <elliott> olsner: i take it it works perfectly now
04:05:05 <Ilari> Ugh... How many different *NAMEs DNS has? CNAME, DNAME, ZNAME? Oh and apparently there's proposals for BNAME...
04:12:48 <Ilari> Ah, there are only CNAME and DNAME. ZNAME is also a proposal...
04:15:27 * Sgeo_ kind of knows what CNAME is
04:15:33 <elliott> http://www.codlug.info/files/u1/gnome1_0.jpg GNOME 1 -- it's what plants crave!
04:16:19 <elliott> catseye: damn your BSD-usingness, I am becoming less and less convinced that advanced package managers matter.
04:34:00 <olsner> elliott: long mode achieved
04:34:14 <elliott> olsner: awesome! GIMME CODE
04:36:05 <elliott> olsner: haha, my bootloader is going to start in real mode, go into protected mode, go into unreal mode, go into protected mode, and then go into long mode
04:36:22 <elliott> olsner: protected to get to unreal, unreal so i can load a >1 meg kernel, protected to get to long, and long to run the kernel
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05:01:07 <elliott> olsner has figured out that if he doesn't give me code, i am powerless
05:01:21 <catseye> elliott: so does the loading work again yet?
05:01:37 <catseye> am i interested in what the problem was?
05:01:40 <olsner> elliott: http://gist.github.com/657234
05:02:07 <elliott> catseye: i'm stupid and olsner isn't
05:02:17 <elliott> catseye: some stupid parameter to the call
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05:03:07 <olsner> hmm, it's really QUITE late now
05:04:22 <elliott> olsner: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
05:04:30 <olsner> happy code stealing and good night :)
05:04:46 <olsner> elliott: just ... figure it out :)
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05:09:24 <catseye> elliott: surely you mean: PAE!
05:09:34 <elliott> catseye: i'm tired shut up :|
05:11:22 <catseye> ERROR: This package has set PKG_FAIL_REASON:
05:11:22 <catseye> ERROR: openmotif-2.3.1nb4 has an unacceptable license condition:
05:11:38 <catseye> DEAR PACKAGE YOUR LICENSE IS IN ERROR
05:12:50 <elliott> catseye: package managers; who neds em
05:13:49 <catseye> is what i'm thinking right now, certainly
05:13:55 <catseye> saving me legally from myself
05:14:30 <elliott> catseye: herz what im thinkin, in tired-shorthand;
05:14:46 <elliott> catseye: /usr/src. ok. buncha directories inside, dey pkgs.
05:15:24 <elliott> catseye: makefile. "all" rule, depend on like the-software-version/{configure,Makefile}, and dey just call dose. rul for dose configure and makefile, is, we download software tarball from internet, and unpack.
05:15:42 <elliott> catseye: and der a download-binary target, which does same for binary tarball which has makefile that install and etc.
05:16:46 <catseye> you know, as long as you can cleanly remove what you install, i don't care about the rest
05:18:31 <elliott> catseye: oh yaeh make uninstall target.
05:18:42 <elliott> catseye: with bianry package all this is much simpler
05:18:48 <elliott> install: tar xf, run shell script
05:18:59 <elliott> uninstall: remove all non-config files from some manifest, run shell script
05:19:08 <elliott> catseye: then we just plug that into a ports-style autocompile system
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05:24:36 <elliott> evincar: ah! the frontispiece!
05:24:58 <evincar> elliott: Beg coming your pardon?
05:25:15 <elliott> thou art'st'st'st'st's't'st'st'st; unbulate
05:25:27 <elliott> track the pititulancers oft'x blaeæit;
05:25:56 <evincar> Are you writing in some esolang we don't know yet? :P
05:26:17 <elliott> evincar: VERILY! crite understambulaters,
05:26:32 <elliott> creese down t'tirednes wht'sgrinnin'
05:29:03 <evincar> So I'm starting a site some folk on here might find interesting and useful.
05:29:44 <evincar> I have to do a final project for my Web Design class, and I figured it would be more beneficial to myself and mankind to make something other than a personal page that'll rot on the school server.
05:30:25 <evincar> Anyway, it's a site for vote-based advertisement of new open-source projects, so small developers can gain exposure.
05:31:37 <evincar> You get an icon, a URL, and a Twitter-sized description. You can upvote or downvote projects. Receiving a downvote loses you points, and giving one loses you a few fewer. Receiving upvotes on your project or your userpage gives you points.
05:32:13 <evincar> Projects and users are ranked by newest, most popular, and "hottest", that is, both new and popular.
05:32:58 <evincar> There's nothing quite like it out there.
05:33:05 <evincar> So I think I have a good niche.
05:33:05 <elliott> i think there is a reddit for that.
05:33:39 <elliott> evincar: i can't think i'd ever browse it -- it sounds like a site of ads, admittedly user-controlled ads
05:34:04 <elliott> it's not a good idea to go out in search of software "just because".
05:34:15 <elliott> software should be built to serve a use and people who want that use should use the software.
05:34:25 <elliott> i am not sure i approve of the idea of showcasing software just because it exists.
05:34:34 <elliott> it's the kind of thing i expect from commercial software
05:35:09 <evincar> Right, but if you want people to work on your software with you, but aren't established yet, what do you do? Sourceforge and freshmeat and even slightly smaller sites such as Google Code and github aren't geared toward exposure for new projects.
05:35:12 <Sgeo_> You don't approve of showcasing PSOX?
05:35:37 * Sgeo_ finds a bridge to duck under
05:35:50 <elliott> evincar: The kind of people who would read the site are, I feel, not the kind of people who would make good software contributors.
05:36:06 <elliott> evincar: Also, contributing to software you don't have a need for is an exercise in half-assedness.
05:36:18 <elliott> Better is to find a community or group of people with the need, and look for contributors there.
05:37:03 <evincar> elliott: You can't say what sort of people would use the site until it's actually been run. (Never optimise without profiling?) And who says you'd contribute to software you don't have a need for? You'd contribute to software that interests you because you have a need for it.
05:37:32 <elliott> evincar: then the software developer should ask for contributors on a relevant forum
05:37:37 <evincar> Or even just see what the open-source community is up to and take a ride on the bleeding edge.
05:37:37 <elliott> basically you're saying that the usecase is
05:37:45 <elliott> programmer who has a need for X reads this site on a regular basis
05:37:51 <elliott> just happens to see some software that does X
05:37:58 <elliott> this sounds like a very contrived usage scenario.
05:38:02 <elliott> <evincar> Or even just see what the open-source community is up to and take a ride on the bleeding edge.
05:38:05 <elliott> so software for software's sake.
05:38:41 <evincar> Yes, and gaining exposure, promoting good new ideas.
05:38:45 <catseye> i don't see how this is just about attracting contributors; users would also be part of the audience
05:38:52 <elliott> software for software's sake is the reason software sucks
05:39:00 <elliott> catseye: because users already have a way of finding software to meet need X
05:39:16 <elliott> and it's called freshmeat, google, etc.; okay, they're not very *good*, but the basic model can be improved upon.
05:39:22 <catseye> sometimes users don't know what their "needs" even are
05:39:23 <elliott> this site would merely showcase new software
05:39:32 <elliott> catseye: ok, so have a site for games
05:39:54 <elliott> catseye: what's your non-game example?
05:40:51 <elliott> because games are very different from other software
05:41:54 <evincar> elliott: That's what tags are for. Let a folksonomy develop.
05:42:03 <elliott> "folksonomy" please never use this word...
05:42:04 <evincar> Also, I'm just doing this for school, as an experiment. If it takes off, bully.
05:42:08 <elliott> evincar: ok, so it's basically freshmeat?
05:42:16 <evincar> elliott: WEB 2.0 AJAX CLOUD
05:42:25 <elliott> with a semi-pointless top list of all projects
05:43:13 <elliott> Must. Stay. Awake. To. Normalise. Sleep. Schedule.
05:43:50 <evincar> elliott: Yes, but with subtly different motivation and approach, and not targeted toward just "unix and cross-platform" software.
05:44:12 <elliott> uhm i just saw a piece of software on freshmeat that was windows/os x only.
05:45:08 * elliott pumps more liquid sugar + caffeine into system
05:45:30 <evincar> So...only Windows or OSX. That crosses two platforms, one of which is Unix-based.
05:45:39 <elliott> ok so basically you want windows-only software too
05:46:40 <evincar> It's more like Ohloh, except less like a wiki and more like Twitter.
05:46:56 <evincar> And no, I'm not just trying to sound "Web 2.0" here. I think it's got it's place.
05:47:02 <catseye> good luck on your project, evincar. hope you get a good grade
05:47:16 <elliott> catseye: i'm not trying to disparage his work or anything
05:47:16 <evincar> catseye: Cheers, that's all I'm asking.
05:47:23 <elliott> i'm just critiquing the idea from a standalone viewpoint
05:47:25 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: leaving).
05:47:27 <evincar> elliott: I realise that. I'm glad for the critique.
05:47:37 <elliott> evincar: the thing you're missing, i think, is that twitter is a vast cloud of meaningless noise :)
05:47:48 <elliott> evincar: what you have said sounds a *lot* more like reddit to me than twitter btw
05:47:59 <evincar> Yes, but a *very active* vast cloud of meaningless noise.
05:48:04 <elliott> evincar: i guess, you could say that what you want is the reddit to freshmeat's slashdot.
05:48:31 <elliott> evincar: freshmeat's descriptions of software are very long and it's "heavy-weight"
05:48:39 <elliott> no user input as to the order of things on the front page
05:48:48 <elliott> whereas you want short descriptions and user control
05:48:58 <elliott> well, if you pull it off, it might be worthwhile
05:49:00 <evincar> Centred around the idea of building a community.
05:49:02 <elliott> i don't think i'll use it though :)
05:49:10 <evincar> Hey, whatever. You'll know about it.
05:49:21 <elliott> but then, hey, i don't even like using most software that isn't mine
05:49:32 <elliott> because i'm a cynical bastard and hate software
05:49:41 <elliott> man what the hell am i going to be like when i'm 20
05:49:44 <evincar> Oh, you have Not Invented Here Disorder? :P
05:50:02 <elliott> (sleepiness is part of age, i swear)
05:50:17 <evincar> I was trying to coin a new term. The Syndrome refers to a company doing it. :P
05:50:58 <evincar> Well, I'm 19, and way less cynical than I was when I was 15.
05:51:03 <elliott> evincar: I do have NIH but I also have a separate hatred of most software :)
05:51:12 <elliott> Bring back Lisp machines! or don't, because they were flawed, but
05:51:16 <elliott> sure as hell better than what we have today
05:51:26 <elliott> thanks apple! thanks microsoft! thanks ib motherfuckin' m!
05:51:39 <evincar> You're cheeky. How long've you been awake?
05:52:03 <evincar> And what time is it there now?
05:52:15 <elliott> I plan to stay awake until 00:00 or so
05:52:20 <elliott> I'm normalising! hahahaha yeah right
05:52:35 <evincar> I was going to say "that's not so bad", but it's not not so bad.
05:52:47 <elliott> i should have gone to bed about, uh, now, but my probable sleeping disorder hates me
05:52:58 <evincar> And your urge to drink caffeine.
05:53:08 <elliott> evincar: in *this* case it's intentional
05:53:18 <elliott> to stop me falling asleep before i want to
05:53:37 <evincar> Well, it's just before 1:00 here, and I'm going strong since I woke up late today.
05:53:59 <elliott> I'm not actually as tired as it seems.
05:54:09 <evincar> And spent the rest of the day catching up on homework for the class I missed this morning.
05:54:10 <elliott> I was a little while ago, but I've perked back up.
05:54:22 <elliott> I intend to eat a damn good breakfast when it's morning to propel me through the day.
05:54:41 <evincar> I may take a run to the store and get an energy drink before it closes in an hour.
05:54:57 <evincar> Not sure, though, since I have 7 hours of class ahead of me.
05:55:05 <elliott> (related fun fact to a few lines ago -- melatonin is actually prescription only in the uk! can you believe that? if i cared about stupid laws like that, i'd need a *prescription* to legally own a hormone present in my own body at all times)
05:55:44 <elliott> in the us, it's not even a drug, it's a "dietary supplement" :)
05:55:50 <evincar> And I'm a lightweight, so half your typical energy drink, plus plenty of water, is more than enough to keep me awake for an extra 24 hours.
05:56:02 <elliott> evincar: yeah i should probably down one of those ridiculously unhealthy new "shot" energy drinks
05:56:15 <elliott> that taste like blended batteries
05:56:48 <evincar> Well, US law has some issues with drug laws. If you label it as a "supplement" it doesn't need to be evaluated under the Food and Drug Administration's stringent pharmacological requirements.
05:56:57 <elliott> "dos2unix $1 &> /dev/null && \
05:56:57 <elliott> unix2dos $1 &> /dev/null && \
05:56:57 <elliott> dos2unix $1 &> /dev/null &"
05:57:11 <evincar> So vitamins and homeopathic remedies are all labelled accordingly.
05:57:16 <elliott> evincar: yeah, that's why melatonin is such too
05:57:28 <elliott> I love the idea of FDA evaluating a natural hormone to see if it's safe.
05:57:52 <elliott> "As melatonin has been determined unfit for pharmaceutical use, its production is now prohibited. Consequently, reproduction is now illegal."
05:58:25 <evincar> Well, hormones aren't the worst things to mess with, but messing with them *is* messing with yourself.
05:59:15 <elliott> evincar: well, yeah. low melatonin levels aren't uncommon though, and i found several studies a while back
05:59:20 <elliott> one, in short term adult use -- no side effects at all
05:59:25 <elliott> another, in *long term* *child* use -- no side effects at all
05:59:29 <evincar> If I take growth hormones along with an exercise regime, I'll become far more bulky than I would just exercising normally.
05:59:47 <elliott> and the side effects are "you get a headache and oversleep"
05:59:48 <evincar> Right, melatonin in particular is benign.
05:59:54 <elliott> so uh, i'd have trouble thinking of a scenario in which bad things would happen :)
06:00:04 <evincar> Uh, miss an important event?
06:00:20 <evincar> That's so serious compared to, y'know, meth.
06:03:18 <evincar> I dunno, I've had some pretty crazy sleep.
06:03:33 <evincar> Then again, I'm all about fucking with the relationship between sleep, waking, madness, and death.
06:03:42 <elliott> i am totally not about that
06:03:57 <elliott> i do not like blurring the line between waking and death :)
06:03:58 <evincar> Well, I'm fond of existential bullshit. It's a hobby.
06:04:45 <evincar> Sometime, if you get the chance, you ought to stay awake for a few days. It's a very interesting experience.
06:04:57 <elliott> evincar: my max was about 40 hours
06:05:06 <elliott> i almost physically collapsed
06:05:58 <evincar> I think my record was pushing 70, which is still nothing compared to, say, the world record.
06:06:31 <elliott> the world record probably ended in death
06:07:03 <evincar> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Gardner_%28record_holder%29
06:07:12 <evincar> Not so! And he was only 17.
06:07:24 <elliott> oh man high school student
06:07:27 <elliott> i hope it was in school term
06:08:02 <elliott> [["I wanted to prove that bad things didn't happen if you went without sleep," said Gardner.]]
06:08:07 <evincar> Guinness has officially stopped keeping records of things that are too dangerous for their legal department. :P
06:08:09 <elliott> evincar: what a way to justify your all-nighters to your mother!
06:08:21 <evincar> Well, he did end up hallucinating.
06:08:23 <elliott> i refuse to accept any other explanation
06:08:30 <evincar> In reality, the hallucinations are very much like dreams.
06:08:54 <elliott> evincar: if you're experiencing them, it's probably microsleep
06:09:34 <evincar> Probably, yes, but for all measurable purposes you're still awake.
06:10:07 <elliott> evincar: not if you're driving
06:10:16 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_rail_accident microsleeps were a factor in this
06:10:20 <evincar> Oh god, by the way, NEVER do that.
06:10:47 <evincar> I have been falling asleep while driving, and it's...just not worth whatever you're driving for.
06:10:53 <Sgeo_> I was already scared of learning to drive
06:11:00 <Sgeo_> I don't have a good sleep cycle
06:11:08 <elliott> microsleeps only happen after sleep deprivation
06:11:19 <elliott> protip: if you're tired DON'T FUCKING DRIVE MORON
06:11:32 <Sgeo_> elliott, does sleeping for 5 hours or less a night count as sleep deprivation?
06:11:36 <Sgeo_> Also, I fully agree
06:11:39 <evincar> Sgeo_: Driving is perfectly safe as long as you don't think about the fact that it's horrifically, phenomenally dangerous.
06:11:46 <elliott> being awake for like 18 hours or more counts
06:11:58 <elliott> evincar: i hate the road system etc.
06:12:17 <Sgeo_> But what if I plan a schedule around being able to drive, then fail to get enough sleep, and am tired, but can't do public transportation?
06:12:18 <elliott> even this little town is built entirely around these ridiculously dangerous machines driven by people who get angry so easily
06:12:26 <elliott> road rage is an indicator that driving is not good psychology...
06:12:47 <elliott> fuck people, let's just have them stand and wait for the lethal machines to slow down!
06:13:29 <elliott> evincar: "and state that the Guinness World Records record is 449 hours (18 days, 17 hours) by Maureen Weston, of Peterborough, Cambridgeshire in April, 1977, in a rocking-chair marathon."
06:13:30 <Sgeo_> I'd say something about requiring the operators of the machines to be properly trained and certified, but that obviously doesn't work
06:13:35 <elliott> BEST REASON TO STAY AWAKE EVER
06:13:38 <elliott> Sgeo_: they sort of do that
06:13:46 <elliott> bicycles are nice if you're into that kind of thing :)
06:13:57 <Sgeo_> elliott, I know. And obviously people still do stupid things
06:14:01 <elliott> evincar: What a modern, humane city should do is this:
06:14:02 <evincar> Seriously, I'm interested in way too many things.
06:14:18 <elliott> evincar: Build it for people walking around and bicycles. Roads go to the *side* of everything else, crossings should be kept to an absolute minimum.
06:14:23 <elliott> STRICT policy of people taking priority.
06:14:27 <Sgeo_> That's why I said "that obviously doesn't work"
06:14:41 <elliott> Ideally, let there be no clear road/people space boundary on the road areas: there is no place that cars "own".
06:14:47 <elliott> People are there all the time, so drivers have to go slower.
06:14:57 <elliott> And keep it away from anywhere where people live, because of the damn noise!
06:15:02 <elliott> evincar: And then, to meet the needs of everyone:
06:15:15 <Sgeo_> Unless there are few people walking around at night, then drivers speed up, but there is one person walking there...
06:15:15 <elliott> evincar: Very regular entrances into a fast, underground railway system.
06:15:25 <elliott> evincar: Should never be more than five minutes away from a station.
06:15:36 <evincar> elliott: What you're describing is to be found in parts of India, I think.
06:15:47 <evincar> Less the underground, not sure.
06:16:05 <evincar> CLEAN, on the other hand...
06:16:25 <elliott> City is free of noise pollution, you can walk around nicely, bicycles have lots of open space to ride in, people who really want to use cars to get into the city or whatever can go via the to-the-side roads, and inside the city, non-bicyclists who want to go a long distance can just hop on the tube.
06:17:12 <Sgeo_> microsleep can last for 30sec?
06:17:14 <elliott> evincar: Oh, and of course, for inter-city transport, you have fast railways -- think Japan -- and also long motorways.
06:17:54 <pikhq> elliott: Randy Gardner's not-sleeping was in the name of science.
06:18:04 <elliott> evincar: Is that meant to be a rebuttal?
06:18:09 <pikhq> elliott: I hope he got an A for it.
06:18:19 <elliott> pikhq: F for Fucking Insane.
06:18:29 <evincar> elliott: It depends on whether you like socialism without free-market-driven progress.
06:19:16 <elliott> evincar: Okay -- so basically you see something you consider evil socialism, and immediately reply "Gee, Huxley", with no apparent justification or meaning.
06:19:28 <elliott> Is the invisible hand obscuring your vision?
06:20:54 <evincar> elliott: No, I see something I consider good, beneficial socialism, and Immediately reply "Gee, Huxley", leaving it to you to provide your own justification as to whether you think it's a good thing or not, and relying on the self-evident meaning in invoking his work.
06:21:09 <elliott> <evincar> elliott: It depends on whether you like socialism without free-market-driven progress.
06:21:28 <evincar> Hah, no. I meant it's only a rebuttal if you disagree with me. ^_^
06:21:55 <elliott> evincar: It's a very slippery-slope argument, to go from government-funded transport and city organisation to a futuristic, hedonistic dystopia.
06:22:12 <elliott> I mean to use the book as a keyword for it.
06:22:26 <elliott> evincar: Anyway, who said the railways weren't run by corporations? :)
06:22:56 <Sgeo_> I have this... thing, as a child, and still a little now, where if I didn't put my hand on my chest, I'd be worried about whether or not my heart's still beating
06:23:06 <elliott> evincar: As for market-dictated city plannings... take a look at New York's power grid in the 1890s, on the left: http://www.loper-os.org/wp-content/wires.jpg
06:23:27 <evincar> elliott: Maybe I don't consider hedonism inherently evil. I think the only problem with that world (other than those the book addresses, the loss of culture, etc.) is that a free market, or some form of competition is necessary for social progress because it provides the motivation for people to innovate.
06:23:42 <elliott> I am very sceptical of the idea that unrestrained markets can develop all beneficial social institutions. :)
06:23:55 <elliott> evincar: I approve of the idea of a market with competition; however, I do not approve of the idea of an unregulated one.
06:24:22 <evincar> Sgeo_: I used to have something similar. I also didn't believe my heart beat while I slept.
06:24:30 <elliott> Unregulated free-market capitalism is basically corporatism, sadly, and the political power of your dollar falls down after a corporation becomes big enough.
06:25:16 <elliott> Free market supporters seem to say "well, corporations won't get big enough!" and then when all the instances of unregulated corporations get big enough are presented, they say "well, that market wasn't *totally* free" as if somehow, increasing the freedom of a market makes it more and more terrible until it's totally free, at which point it becomes perfect.
06:25:31 <Sgeo_> Your heart is now beating manually.
06:25:43 <elliott> Sgeo_: It isn't, but I'm now breathing and blinking manually.
06:25:46 <elliott> Which I am too tired to do!
06:26:44 <elliott> evincar: I also think that absolute pure anarcho-capitalism is possibly the worst thing that could happen.
06:27:16 <elliott> Because when you go that far down the rabbit hole, you start having to pay a corporate police force to protect you. And if they don't want to get involved and you die, well... who's gonna stop them?
06:27:39 <evincar> elliott: I sort of resent the term "free" applied to the free market, because it *means* "free" as in "unrestricted", but it *implies* "free" as in "freedom", which proponents use to their subtle advantage in promoting it, as though a non-free market inherently bars people from their inalienable right to buy and sell shit in an unregulated fashion.
06:27:58 * Sgeo_ would love it if some form of anarchy could be made to work well
06:28:00 <elliott> evincar: It is one of those loaded terms like "pro-life"/"pro-choice".
06:28:01 <Sgeo_> But I highly doubt it
06:28:18 <evincar> Sgeo_: Chaos coalesces into order and might makes right.
06:28:22 <coppro> Libertarianism is an interesting study, but I don't think it would work
06:28:26 <elliott> Sgeo_: Anarchy could probably work with technology.
06:28:39 <Sgeo_> evincar, it's more that I hate centralization
06:28:42 <elliott> Nobody's fully realised, yet, just how much the Internet change everything.
06:28:45 <evincar> elliott: My jargon meter just went off. Care to elaborate?
06:29:14 <coppro> elliott: in your specific example, however, if news got out that a police force was not providing protection, it would lose customers
06:29:20 <coppro> or at least so the libertarian theory goes
06:29:20 <evincar> Sgeo_: I recall someone saying "You'll be hailed as an innovator if you centralise everything that's decentralised, and decentralise everything that's centralised."
06:29:32 <elliott> coppro: and what if the police force decided to club the valiant reporter to death?
06:29:39 <Sgeo_> That sounds Scott Adams-esque
06:29:43 <elliott> Suddenly they're clubbing all their opponents to death, and they are the only one with power.
06:29:53 <coppro> elliott: then the other police forces have to intervene
06:30:00 <coppro> but this shouldn't happen
06:30:01 <elliott> coppro: This one happens to be the biggest.
06:30:06 <coppro> because the police forces don't want to fight
06:30:19 <coppro> elliott: There are enough so that no single one is big enough to take on the rest
06:30:20 <elliott> coppro: Exactly -- so when one of their clients is about to get brutally murdered, they don't get involved.
06:30:31 <elliott> coppro: Yes, I am not convinced there would be enough.
06:30:37 <elliott> Also: Police fighting police would be interesting.
06:31:18 <elliott> evincar: I am trying to find a little blog post I find explains my pipe-dream rather well.
06:31:28 <coppro> elliott: But the idea goes that let's suppose police force A is about to kill police force B's client.
06:31:47 <coppro> elliott: police force B tells police force A of this, and rather than fight, they settle it (ideally with an independent adjudicator)
06:31:55 <elliott> evincar: http://r6.ca/blog/20050621T184100Z.html I don't agree with this entirely; direct democracy scares me. But it's an illustration, albeit incomplete and flawed, of how technology can change social structures...
06:32:03 <coppro> that's where the system breaks down in my mind
06:32:21 <coppro> insurace comapnies show that adjudication like that is dangerous
06:32:47 <elliott> like governments, corporations are something everyone should innately distrust
06:32:50 <coppro> elliott: Oh man, that funding rule
06:32:58 <elliott> with anarcho-capitalism... this becomes more or less impossible
06:33:01 <coppro> That rule nearly brought down the government in 2008
06:33:16 <coppro> elliott: but I have inteded to raise the point with a libertarian friend
06:33:16 <elliott> coppro: Are you pro or against? :)
06:33:28 <elliott> (The funding rule; I know nothing of it.)
06:33:43 <coppro> the part that nearly brought down the government was that they tried to get rid of it
06:33:47 <elliott> "Parties get funding related to the number of votes they get, and corporate donations have been all but eliminated." -- this, in its pure form, sounds wonderful to me.
06:33:52 <coppro> and the opposition parties were like "no"
06:34:29 <coppro> of course, they aren't gone entirely
06:34:44 <coppro> and that's probably why the Cons wanted to repeal that provision - they are fans of corporations
06:35:22 <coppro> I don't think the rest is necessarily right
06:35:40 <coppro> It will reduce the degree to which government decisions are made at arm's length from the population, hopefully
06:35:48 <coppro> but they won'd be made solely by the people
06:35:55 <elliott> coppro: As you are Canadian, I want to share another thing Russell O'Connor has done:
06:36:20 <coppro> in other news, the Pirate Party approved our first official candidate today!
06:36:41 <elliott> http://r6.ca/blog/20040603T005300Z.html
06:36:42 <elliott> http://r6.ca/blog/20060122T172700Z.html
06:36:42 <elliott> http://r6.ca/blog/20060125T200600Z.html
06:36:42 <elliott> http://r6.ca/blog/20060217T201200Z.html
06:36:42 <elliott> http://r6.ca/blog/20081016T174811Z.html
06:36:43 <elliott> http://r6.ca/blog/20081107T061447Z.html
06:36:48 <elliott> coppro: read from top to bottom (they're short)
06:36:59 <coppro> oh man true timestamps
06:37:11 <elliott> coppro: of course, as it says, the votes that the simulated elections are run with aren't accurate
06:37:15 <elliott> coppro: since they include tactical votes
06:37:23 <elliott> coppro: but in a stochastic system, tactical votes would not be beneficial at all
06:37:29 <elliott> coppro: and so the votes made would be different and the outcome different
06:37:40 <elliott> coppro: still -- the idea is *very* intriguing and as a Canadian you may find the results interesting :)
06:37:45 <coppro> elliott: BUT WHAT ABOUT THE COMMUNIST PARTY
06:37:58 <elliott> of course the probability of it ever being adopted is *zero* because stupid people don't understand probability
06:38:10 <elliott> "TURN OUR ELECTIONS INTO A DICE ROLL?! YOU ANTI-DEMOCRATIC MONSTER!""
06:38:19 <elliott> but yeah, read those posts :)
06:39:41 <coppro> especially in the context of Canada
06:39:52 <coppro> where our governments have a surprisingly strong 'old boss same as new boss' tendency
06:40:04 <elliott> yeah, you guys have a bit of a depressing political system
06:40:27 <elliott> coppro: don't you want to swap new and old there? :)
06:40:47 <coppro> elliott: does it matter?
06:40:52 <elliott> evincar: i like how since coppro's started talking it's changed from a mainly me and you conversation into a mainly me and coppro conversation
06:40:54 <elliott> coppro: no, but it reads better :)
06:41:05 <coppro> and actually, the strong consistency does have its benefits
06:41:08 <elliott> coppro: and as it is there it makes it look like you're going back in time
06:41:29 <coppro> we also have a hell of a public service that typically the government listens to (except, apparently when it regards the census)
06:41:36 <evincar> coppro: Whether the independent adjudicator is independent, corporate, or government, it still must exist. The system doesn't "break down" per se.
06:42:22 <coppro> evincar: The problem is that the libertarian idea is removing a single point of failure
06:42:26 <elliott> coppro: what public service are you referring to? tired :)
06:42:39 <elliott> coppro: i mean, which... i mean name
06:42:44 <elliott> my thoughts are becoming incoherent! \o/
06:42:49 <elliott> coppro: btw, it's not the libertarian idea
06:42:50 <coppro> elliott: uh, the public service?
06:42:57 <elliott> it's the anarcho-capitalist idea
06:43:07 <elliott> libertarian is anarcho-capitalist with a police force and military :)
06:43:13 <elliott> which is significantly difference
06:43:19 <elliott> as the government claims a monopoly on coercive force
06:43:33 <elliott> which is less dangerous (but still shitty for other reasons)
06:43:41 <evincar> elliott: The government *is* the bastion of coercive force, effectively.
06:43:53 <coppro> your assertion that libertarianism has a single police force and military
06:43:58 <elliott> in an ancap situation, you have multiple competing police forces
06:44:03 <elliott> in a libertarian situation, you have one police force
06:44:12 <elliott> coppro: it's true! that's what differentiates the two
06:44:16 <elliott> libertarian has a minimal government
06:44:21 <elliott> ancap is anarchy -- no government by definition
06:44:38 <coppro> with multiple competing police forces, you can avoid conflict because it is not in the police forces' interest to have direct conflict
06:45:11 <coppro> however, there will be a small number of police forces (let us suppose for the sake of the argument that the number of significant forces is at least in the tens, which, given human nature, is unlikely but possible)
06:45:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:45:45 <evincar> elliott: I can actually see ancap working out if it had sufficient time to incubate before being subject to external influences. If they need to defend from invasion, they band together to do it and disband when it's over, on the principle that everyone does fine individually but everyone benefits from not getting royally fucked over by another country.
06:45:53 <coppro> Initially, each police force might resolve differences with each other force differently
06:45:59 <elliott> even aside from the unstable society
06:46:20 <elliott> Can't find work in a, by definition, ridiculously competitive work environment?
06:46:29 <elliott> Got cancer? FUCK YOU, PAY UP!
06:46:32 <coppro> however, a single force would gravitate towards increasing efficiency and consistency by adopting a single system of dealing with other police forces
06:46:34 <elliott> Can't afford food? Why not starve?
06:46:54 <coppro> elliott: part of ancap relies on the existence of private philanthropists
06:46:58 <elliott> (and no, charities can't just wish for donations and solve it all... when money is that important, how many people will give it up for others?)
06:47:06 <evincar> elliott: Actually, it depends on what you consider "society". Sure, leadership and governance and that would all be ad-hoc and arbitrary. But the stability of a social situation depends largely on the morals of the people involved, and almost all people basically work under the principle "don't be a jerk".
06:47:10 <elliott> coppro: sure... i don't think they'd be nearly common enough.
06:47:21 <coppro> elliott: If it became a social norm for rich people, it might
06:47:23 <elliott> evincar: I would love to believe that people are fundamentally nice.
06:47:31 <elliott> But no, sorry, selfishness takes over at some point.
06:47:45 <coppro> but in any case, as the police forces gravitate towards a single system, this system eventually becomes your single point of failure
06:47:49 <evincar> elliott: I never said that people are fundamentally nice, but it's also absurd to claim that there's anything fundamentally *wrong* with people.
06:48:11 <elliott> evincar: there isn't. selfishness is just a fact
06:48:29 <elliott> and a sane governmental system uses this to its advantage, and stops it being dangerous
06:48:40 <elliott> it lets it be expressed in a capitalist system so we get innovation and nice things
06:48:43 <coppro> elliott: according to wikipedia, we're both wrong
06:48:46 <elliott> but it stops it interfering with people's wellbeing
06:48:55 <evincar> elliott: Of course, look at, oh, ecology. You're selfish to the extent that you can be without destabilising the system around you. Anything that causes the system to become unstable eliminates itself automatically.
06:48:57 <coppro> anarcho-capitalism is a subset of libertarianism
06:49:07 <elliott> coppro: like nazism is etc.
06:49:14 <elliott> but ancap is basically libertarianism to the max
06:49:35 <elliott> evincar: of course, but society doesn't have the same sort of safeguards as nature really
06:49:52 <coppro> elliott: no, you were clear on libertarianism supporting minimal state
06:49:52 <coppro> but that is not necessarily true
06:49:52 <coppro> btw, it is in fact okay to admit wrongessness once in a while
06:50:08 <evincar> elliott: Interesting to note that libertarianism is a strict superset of ancap. But isn't every set a superset of the empty set?
06:50:12 <elliott> as their entire political philosophy
06:50:22 <Sgeo_> elliott was wrong?
06:50:24 <coppro> elliott: I have a counterexample
06:50:28 <coppro> elliott: *wrongnessness
06:50:36 <elliott> coppro: do you see the [007F]s?
06:50:45 <evincar> elliott: Society *does* have the same safeguards as nature *except* when totalitarian agriculture is involved.
06:50:50 <evincar> elliott: Read some Daniel Quinn.
06:50:52 <elliott> wrongess[007F][007F][007F]ness
06:51:02 <elliott> evincar: i know it has safeguards, just not the same
06:51:13 <elliott> coppro: i do admit i'm wrong, i just don't think i was wrong here :)
06:51:32 <elliott> "libertarianism" as referring to a distinct place on the political spectrum is perhaps a loose use of terms, but it's obvious what i was using it to mean
06:51:45 <elliott> and it's the most useful definition of that term when used to define a specific point on the spectrum rather than a whole spectrum in itself, in my opinion
06:52:08 <coppro> elliott: you are/were on a defensive "ohshithesgotfactsthatcontradictmyviewmustmitigatelosses"
06:52:17 <coppro> I know this because I do this all the time, so I can recognize it
06:52:17 <evincar> Can I just say that I'm experiencing a nerd head rush from carrying on a lucid, sophisticated, intellectual conversation with people who seem to be largely my junior?
06:52:34 <elliott> coppro: perhaps i am acting the same as if i was, but actually, i had *already loaded the wikipedia page* long before you mentioned it
06:52:43 <elliott> coppro: and i stand by my usage of the terminology in this case
06:52:47 <coppro> elliott: then my statement goes double
06:53:03 * coppro pops this conversation
06:53:05 <elliott> coppro: whatever, i'm uninterested in arguing the point -- but i have always used the term libertarian to mean two things, the philosophy and the particular point
06:53:12 <elliott> coppro: and i am not going to stop doing that, because many people do
06:53:40 <elliott> besides, arguments about terminology are *stupid*, there aren't any facts in terminology whatever wikipedia says imo :) and that goes for *every* term
06:53:44 <elliott> there's just what's most useful
06:53:53 <elliott> <evincar> Can I just say that I'm experiencing a nerd head rush from carrying on a lucid, sophisticated, intellectual conversation with people who seem to be largely my junior?
06:53:59 <elliott> heck, what about me? i'm sleep-deprived
06:54:11 <elliott> it's not quite a head rush so much as a... head the-bends
06:54:16 <evincar> elliott: Right you are. That says nothing of the actual members of the Libertarian Party, however...there's a large congregation of them here in the Northeast, and they're known for causing a certain amount of trouble, politically and legally.
06:54:21 <coppro> evincar: how old do you think I am?
06:54:38 <evincar> coppro: I have no idea. In your twenties, probably?
06:54:38 <elliott> coppro has always been 16 and always will be
06:54:44 <elliott> coppro's 18 :p last i checked
06:54:54 <evincar> Ah, still younger than me then, if you're right.
06:55:09 <elliott> don't take my word for it i don't actually know
06:55:23 <elliott> i was extrapolating from in high school recently + then in university
06:55:32 * evincar takes coppro's word that elliot's word is correct.
06:55:49 <evincar> So yeah, I'm the geezer in here.
06:55:54 <elliott> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BerserkButton
06:56:06 <elliott> Sgeo_ is 20 or 21, although i find it almost impossible to convince myself of this fact
06:56:23 <evincar> Ah. Well, fairly typical IRC age range, then.
06:56:31 <evincar> Then again, I might be biased.
06:56:40 <elliott> evincar: you were in here in 2008 right?
06:56:44 <evincar> The only chats I've ever joined have to do with deep, heady things.
06:56:48 -!- augur has joined.
06:56:51 <elliott> i talked to you when i was 12! hahaha! although i was a bit of an idiot
06:57:21 <elliott> evincar: aw great, now you've associated me with that guy :)
06:57:36 <coppro> in my view, part of the problem with libertarian groups in general is that they tend to contain both people who believe that the correct social structure has little/no government and are willing to carry on lucid, intellectual, well-thought-out arguments about why this is the case and how they intend to implement it.
06:57:39 <elliott> i've evolved from precocious to just being a dick
06:57:44 <elliott> in my defence, people are idiots
06:57:49 <elliott> (i'm not actually this misanthropic!)
06:57:50 <evincar> I am fully aware that people can evolve, my friend.
06:57:59 <coppro> *and people who just hate the fucking cunts in the motherfucking government
06:58:01 <evincar> I've changed drastically in the past month, since leaving my girlfriend.
06:58:23 <elliott> coppro: i was so confused before you added that correction
06:58:26 <coppro> actually, the same goes for communist groups too
06:58:52 <coppro> people who believe that the correct social structure is one of very strong government... and a bunch of ditto marks
06:59:06 <coppro> btw, do you want a laugh?
06:59:08 <coppro> google canadian action party
06:59:28 <elliott> it's interesting just how far apart and yet close statist communism and anarchic communism are
06:59:41 <elliott> and i am not entirely sure the transition from the first to the second could or would ever happen, ever :)
06:59:56 <coppro> evincar: are you Canadian?
07:00:05 <elliott> american, unless i'm mistaken
07:00:09 <elliott> i love answering other people's personal questions
07:00:14 <elliott> or at least, he's in america now
07:00:27 <elliott> coppro: canadian action party sound fun
07:00:28 <evincar> coppro: elliot's right, but living in New England gives me a pretty good sense of things, I think.
07:00:39 <evincar> I plan to move to Canada in a few years.
07:01:12 <elliott> evincar: you should move to europe, it's nice here! (note: i am not in one of the nice parts of europe)
07:01:14 <evincar> elliott: That's what I get for mistyping, incorrectly correcting, and failing to just use tab-complete.
07:01:23 <elliott> although immigration into the EU is probably non-trivial
07:01:54 <elliott> coppro: one of our nationalist political parties has clearly read http://zapatopi.net/belgium/
07:01:55 <evincar> elliott: I'd like to live somewhere in the south of England, or in the north country of France.
07:02:25 <elliott> evincar: no. you do not want to live in england.
07:02:31 <evincar> elliott: Speaking French gives me a certain fraction of French nationalism, not to mention I have French Canadian heritage (though I hate Québécois accents.)
07:02:35 <elliott> evincar: maybe cornwall. but england: no.
07:02:59 <elliott> evincar: our political climate is horrible
07:03:11 <elliott> we seem to have a ridiculous proportion of assholes in the population
07:03:17 <elliott> it's just not a very pleasant country :)
07:03:57 <evincar> elliott: How's the politics and culture surrounding gender identity and sexual orientation?
07:04:47 <elliott> you can have civil unions instead of gay marriage. there is a lot of homophobia and the like, and of course there is everywhere, but there's gonna be a lot more than in sweden or whatever
07:04:51 <evincar> elliott: Obviously, I'd've got more of an impression of this if I'd looked more seriously into living in the UK in the near future.
07:05:04 <elliott> i don't even know of any transphobia but then i don't know of much transphobia *anywhere* since it's such an ignored topic
07:05:10 <elliott> that i doubt most people even know of it
07:05:22 <elliott> evincar: i mean okay, generally people here are nice because... everywhere people are nice
07:05:37 <elliott> it's so hard to give a balanced idea of your own country!
07:05:46 <elliott> evincar: ok, you know how you're in the us, and top on your list of plans is "move outside the US"?
07:05:58 <evincar> elliott: Very true. I know a couple of transsexuals who also dress, and they can get by totally under the radar because people just don't know about it.
07:06:00 <elliott> because you don't want to do the interesting things in your life in the US?
07:06:13 <elliott> evincar: that's what you said! :p
07:06:23 <evincar> That was in response to the first thing.
07:06:26 <elliott> "I'm in the USA but I'm moving to Canada ASAP."
07:06:28 <evincar> No, I don't want to just escape the US.
07:06:42 <elliott> evincar: ok what i'm trying to say is
07:06:48 <evincar> I only want to move to Canada because I like French culture and because there are tax incentives for game developers. :P
07:07:01 <evincar> And, y'know, socialised health care, recreational marijuana, whatever.
07:07:06 <elliott> so much for open source :)
07:07:19 <evincar> Not that I even smoke marijuana with any regularity or frequency.
07:07:55 <evincar> elliott: I love open source. I also love making money. The two are not incompatible. I'll release everything I can freely.
07:08:15 <elliott> i don't see many open source games with good sales
07:08:53 <evincar> elliott: There's nothing to say I can't release the source after the game has run its lifetime.
07:09:07 <coppro> Or you can release the engine and make the media proprietary
07:09:17 <elliott> coppro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iulNvamNzeg#t=40s
07:09:19 <elliott> coppro: watch this for a laugh
07:09:27 <elliott> coppro: (start from the beginning if you have the attention span)
07:09:31 <coppro> DROD has experienced modest success under this strategy
07:09:36 <evincar> coppro: I do have a solid engine that I wouldn't even need to open-source, just make the API available and people would be pretty happy.
07:09:56 <coppro> evincar: even better from a financial point of view
07:09:56 <elliott> evincar: I oppose copyright, basically, so I can't support you I'm afraid :) but it's better than most game selling models at least.
07:10:15 <elliott> scratch the basically, i oppose copyright
07:10:26 <coppro> elliott: Do you oppose commercial copyright?
07:10:52 <elliott> evincar: intense and idiotic :)
07:10:54 <coppro> elliott: copyright law used to prevent someone from making money off of another's work
07:11:06 <elliott> evincar: if you keep listening you'll eventually hear him saying that belgium is "not even a real country"
07:11:15 <elliott> which is possibly the funniest thing i've ever heard
07:11:18 <elliott> i repeat, http://zapatopi.net/belgium/
07:11:30 <evincar> elliott: "Basically a non-country".
07:11:45 <elliott> evincar: read that page, it's amusing :)
07:11:55 <elliott> coppro: well. you already see GPL'd software being sold legally but shadily
07:12:01 <elliott> coppro: all over the place
07:12:09 <elliott> coppro: and while it's legal (sometimes not, but let's ignore that for now), it isn't a huge problem
07:12:15 <elliott> coppro: few people get suckered into it
07:12:21 <coppro> elliott: No, I mean something like me starting a bookstore where I sell other people's books at only the printing costs and never give the author a red cent
07:12:36 <elliott> coppro: that's basically like selling someone else's free ffmpeg wrapper.
07:12:43 <elliott> coppro: which happens. and is mostly legal
07:13:01 <elliott> coppro: but is not a problem
07:13:04 <coppro> elliott: the books in this case are not free for others
07:13:19 <coppro> elliott: so you are okay with creators being forced to compete with reproducers?
07:13:27 <elliott> coppro: yes they are; there's no copyright, so any book that is sold would just be reproduced online immediately
07:13:39 <elliott> coppro: let me find something pertinent for you
07:13:42 <coppro> elliott: Copyright exists.
07:13:51 <elliott> coppro: not in my hypothetical world, it does not
07:13:53 <evincar> elliott: I find it remarkable that your views on copyright are so liberal, after the discussion we just had.
07:14:22 <evincar> elliott: I perceive a contrast, but there may not actually be one.
07:14:30 <coppro> elliott: I accuse you of committing a fallacy
07:14:42 <elliott> <coppro> elliott: so you are okay with creators being forced to compete with reproducers?
07:14:44 <elliott> please read this http://diveintomark.org/archives/2009/10/19/the-point
07:14:50 <elliott> it's a very nice, and enlightened, view on these kinds of things.
07:14:56 <elliott> and is even to do with books!
07:15:20 <evincar> Ah, never mind, I was mistaken.
07:15:34 <evincar> Chalk it up to the hour or something.
07:15:37 <elliott> evincar: what contrast did you perceive, just of curiosity?
07:16:10 <evincar> Well, you were advocating rather strongly against anarcho-capitalism and libertarianism alike, no?
07:16:27 <coppro> And I do believe that many creators will create for the joy of creating
07:16:41 <coppro> However, it is far easier to go about this creation if I'm paid for my work
07:16:43 <Sgeo_> elliott, but that's that one person's choice
07:16:49 <evincar> coppro: Creators gonna create.
07:16:52 <elliott> coppro: I still believe that a commercial incentive could be made to create creative works
07:17:08 <coppro> evincar: I do not have time to work on open-source stuff right now
07:17:30 <evincar> elliott: So I didn't take into account the capitalist aspect of that. I figured you'd like to be paid for your work, as a creative.
07:17:36 <elliott> coppro: off the top of my head -- this probably wouldn't work, but if i can generate possibilities off the top of my head this easily... -- creator makes several excellent works for free, gets a reputation -- and then operates a donation system: once I get N donations, you get a new film/whatever on [date]
07:17:37 <coppro> elliott: How, if the creative work will instantly be distributed free and thus become worthless?
07:17:45 <elliott> coppro: this probably would not work, but... it's an idea
07:18:07 <elliott> just because we can't think of something perfect yet (and for all i know someone already has) doesn't mean we should stop trying
07:18:15 <elliott> evincar: i'm a free culture hippie :)
07:18:20 <elliott> evincar: really it's all so... non-clear-cut.
07:18:22 <evincar> coppro, elliott: I think a balance like Creative Commons is really the solution here. :P
07:18:25 <coppro> elliott: fair... for now
07:18:33 <elliott> i'm not as sure as i portray myself
07:18:44 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:18:46 <elliott> evincar: even creative commons lets other people republish another's book and give them no money
07:18:50 <elliott> well, unless you count non-commercial
07:18:57 <elliott> which is a bad license IMO
07:19:04 <coppro> Personally, I would love to remove as much copyright as is possible
07:19:04 <elliott> (no-derivatives is even worse)
07:19:16 <coppro> but I believe it needs to be done with care
07:19:29 <elliott> yeah... for now i support the pirate party
07:19:43 <evincar> elliott: What's so bad about the non-commercial clause? I think it's reasonable to assert that work that you intend to be free ought to always remain free, even in derivative form.
07:19:43 <elliott> as wimpy and unrevolutionary as they have turned out to be, it's better than what we have now :)
07:19:52 <evincar> And even then, someone can always obtain the permission of the creator.
07:19:53 <elliott> evincar: you have mixed up free and Free
07:20:00 <elliott> an easy mistake, considering how stupid the terminology is
07:20:06 <elliott> try libre, it's obnoxious but will help sort out your sentence
07:20:17 <evincar> Ugh, I meant gratis, not libre.
07:20:27 <elliott> evincar: gratis for both of them?
07:20:44 <elliott> say someone has published a novel online
07:20:52 <elliott> i can easily go to lulu or whatever and make myself one
07:20:59 <elliott> but what if i want to give other people the opportunity to get one, too?
07:21:09 <elliott> no reason to make other people to typeset it,
07:21:14 <elliott> go through the lulu process
07:21:22 <elliott> so, i put it up for sale at lulu's *minimum price*
07:21:24 <elliott> i see not a cent of profit
07:21:35 <elliott> and people who want to read this free novel in print can do so for the cost of publishing it + some profit for lulu
07:21:39 <elliott> yet a non-commercial license forbids this
07:21:49 <elliott> i do not view this as a good thing: this forced duplication of effort
07:22:02 <elliott> indeed, "forced duplication of effort" summarises patents and proprietary software too!
07:22:07 <evincar> elliott: Valid example. Subvert it with an addendum. Legal language is, after all, language.
07:22:09 <elliott> you can't use this: you have to make your own. because i say so.
07:22:19 <elliott> evincar: you cannot make such an addendum meaningful
07:22:23 <elliott> it is very much a commercial use
07:22:29 <elliott> and people (lulu) are profiting from it
07:22:39 <elliott> making money off what is primarily someone else's work without permission
07:22:44 <elliott> yet it is not wrong, it is a good service to offer
07:22:53 <elliott> commercial use doesn't mean commercial *ab*use
07:23:05 <elliott> and you can't really distinguish the two when you get down to it, it is very subjective
07:23:07 <evincar> "NC except by permission", "NC except by (insert term defined as meaning 'derivative service' or some such)".
07:23:16 <coppro> elliott: actually, looking at NC, you could do that
07:23:22 <elliott> evincar: well, perhaps that would be better.
07:23:28 <elliott> of course it is still *definitely* not libre like this.
07:23:31 <coppro> to make it more funny, lulu would be violating copyright
07:23:43 <elliott> coppro: but lulu will have TOS saying
07:23:47 <elliott> hey you can't make us violate copyright
07:23:53 <elliott> so you'd be breaking lulu's rules
07:23:58 <coppro> elliott: Probably it will say you can't upload copyrighted material
07:24:00 <elliott> even if this isn't legally enforceable they could still drop you.
07:24:02 <coppro> or something like that
07:24:14 <elliott> evincar: a fundamental part of the definition of libre is that there is *no* discrimination due to fields of use
07:24:18 <elliott> evincar: that includes commercial.
07:25:02 <elliott> this is a nice conversation
07:25:22 <elliott> so often interesting conversations are bogged down in trivial, silly debates underlying a larger point you want to get to
07:25:32 <elliott> but we all seem to share some sort of bedrock of opinions which is helpful
07:25:34 <evincar> elliott: So, once again, free-as-in-beer conflicts with free-as-in-freedom.
07:25:44 <coppro> elliott: in the case of lulu, technically you would be violating lulu's ToS by failing to license them the work
07:25:53 <elliott> coppro: i guessed something like that, yeah
07:25:54 <evincar> elliott: And, you're right, this conversation is stimulating and the disagreement is lively rather than irritating.
07:26:19 <elliott> "Stalin and Hitler.png" best filename ever
07:26:44 <elliott> coppro: remember when we spent hours getting absolutely nowhere about copyright?
07:27:17 <evincar> Okay, allow me to cite the relevant clause 4b:
07:27:21 <evincar> You may not exercise any of the rights granted to You in Section 3 above in any manner that is primarily intended for or directed toward commercial advantage or private monetary compensation. The exchange of the Work for other copyrighted works by means of digital file-sharing or otherwise shall not be considered to be intended for or directed toward commercial advantage or private monetary...
07:27:23 <evincar> ...compensation, provided there is no payment of any monetary compensation in connection with the exchange of copyrighted works.
07:27:29 <coppro> elliott: yes, I recall
07:28:08 <evincar> Re: the lulu example, you're not in violation because you're not primarily intending or directing your actions toward commercial advantage etc.
07:28:26 <coppro> right, you don't violate copyright
07:28:32 <coppro> the worse that could happen is lulu could terminate you
07:28:50 <evincar> coppro: Okay, I just wanted to make sure I was understanding your argument correctly.
07:30:12 <elliott> we should turn this into a computing flamewar
07:30:41 <evincar> Uh, not quite finished yet.
07:30:44 <coppro> btw, good news: The Pirate Party is close to running a candidate!
07:30:58 <evincar> But it's designed to question the nature of computation, so it could be an interesting discussion starter.
07:32:09 <elliott> modern computing is fundamentally badly designed, filesystems are a crock, and current systems are a mire of historical debris that don't respect the user.
07:32:14 <evincar> (Uh, provided anyone notices.)
07:32:20 <coppro> by 'close', I mean that he needs to file nomination papers
07:32:28 <coppro> he's been approved and is ready to go
07:33:51 <evincar> elliott: It's a hell of a good place to be.
07:34:12 <evincar> Oh, and there's nothing to DISCUSS. :P
07:34:22 <coppro> this channel is a bizarre bastion of mostly-erudite thought
07:34:28 <elliott> you're all meant to disagree
07:34:32 <elliott> and defend the wonderful linux
07:34:32 <coppro> (as opposed to, say, mathNEWS (shut up elliott))
07:34:40 * evincar listens to balalaika music and can't wait to get a new one.
07:34:43 <elliott> SO COPPRO HOW'S MY ARTICLE DOING IN THAT THAR PIPELINE
07:34:57 <coppro> I already told you to shut up about it
07:35:36 <elliott> it's amusing to compare conversations like these to the rabble that goes on in here sometimes :)
07:35:52 <elliott> what i am learning is: 4, 5, 6 am is when the cool people are on!
07:36:02 <evincar> Yeah, that was like 20 or 30 KB of a single conversation. :P
07:36:08 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ dd if=/dev/random of=foo bs=512 count=4
07:36:08 <elliott> 174 bytes (174 B) copied, 1.59379 s, 0.1 kB/s
07:36:17 <elliott> i wonder why dd is ... mysteriously giving up
07:36:39 <elliott> evincar: unfortunately we're too busy talking about the conversation to converse any more
07:36:49 <coppro> elliott: iirc dd stops if /dev/random runs out of input
07:36:56 <evincar> elliott: Well, *I'll* bloody take charge.
07:36:58 <elliott> coppro: that's retarded, do you know how to stop that?
07:37:04 <elliott> i guess cat /dev/random | dd if=/dev/stdin
07:37:22 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ cat /dev/random | dd if=/dev/stdin of=/dev/null bs=512 count=4
07:37:22 <elliott> 280 bytes (280 B) copied, 2.54588 s, 0.1 kB/s
07:37:35 <evincar> Okay, so would it be fair to distribute the major programming paradigms along an axis from "more imperative" to "more declarative"?
07:37:52 <elliott> evincar: about as fair as the left/right political spectrum, which means: no but go on anyway
07:37:53 <evincar> Actually, any programming language. :P
07:37:57 <elliott> it's rather reasonable really.
07:38:05 <elliott> just not as a sole descriptor of a paradigm, obviously
07:38:55 <evincar> My sense of it is that functions encapsulate actions, therefore functional programming is inherently declarative in some sense, because actions, being the basic unit, become sort of implicit.
07:39:29 <evincar> And objects encapsulate things, therefore imperative programming is inherently, well, imperative, because nouns, being the basic unit, become implicit as well.
07:39:29 <coppro> evincar: you should come up here to Waterloo!
07:39:33 <elliott> evincar: what is an action in lambda calculus?
07:39:47 <evincar> elliott: Everything is an action.
07:40:05 -!- mimcpher has joined.
07:40:07 <evincar> \x.x is the action of returning what you were given.
07:40:12 <elliott> coppro: DAMN YOU WATERLOO PEOPLE
07:40:19 <elliott> mimcpher: You cannot take over!
07:40:35 <elliott> evincar: ok, so every function in lambda calculus is the action of returning [f x].
07:40:45 <elliott> evincar: that's not very helpful :)
07:40:49 <evincar> elliott: In its canonical form, though.
07:41:07 <evincar> It's not intended to be a useful statement as such, just a definition for what I'm going on to say.
07:41:13 <elliott> evincar: i see. well in lambda calculus' canonical semantics there is no returning, just rewriting
07:41:24 <elliott> your model is FLAWED! Mwahahaha! Give up now! okay carry on
07:41:31 <elliott> coppro: is amstan that guy who came in a while ago
07:41:43 <evincar> elliott: Allow me to simplify my language for the sake of not going mad, and trust that I do have some idea of what I'm talking about. :P
07:41:43 <coppro> elliott: no, he's just the guy we always blame around here
07:41:48 <coppro> you're thinking dbelange
07:42:12 <mimcpher> Our sysadmins get complains about dbelange from random IRC servers
07:42:39 <evincar> Okay, so we've got functional/declarative/verbal, and procedural/declarative/nominal. What's missing is an "adjectival" paradigm, in which the fundamental unit of computation is the *description*.
07:43:30 <evincar> What would an adjectival programming language look like? I think it could not have just any measure of imperative versus declarative nature, because descriptivity is NOT orthogonal with the others.
07:43:38 <evincar> It's a triangle, not two axes.
07:44:00 <elliott> evincar: Don't you mean a square?
07:44:03 <elliott> A triangle-shaped spectrum would be odd.
07:44:22 <elliott> evincar: Because, basically, the only totally-descriptivist language would be exactly in the *centre* of imperative vs declarative.
07:44:34 <elliott> And the more imperative or declarative you get, the less descriptive you could possibly be.
07:44:35 <evincar> elliott: Not really. The language is defined by its relative proximity to three points.
07:44:50 <elliott> Hey, my spell checker finally accepts "alright".
07:45:20 <evincar> So what I did was say: okay, everything is a "description", or, for the purposes of the language, a "property", which I'll shorten to "prop" for ease.
07:45:44 <evincar> Now, a prop can "be" other props, or it can "have" them. It amounts to the same thing.
07:46:05 <evincar> You can imbue a prop with another prop, and you can test the props of a prop.
07:46:38 <evincar> In a typed adjectival language, a prop can also "be" a value, such as a number or an array or whatever.
07:48:01 <evincar> Now, for props there is no real notion of ownership, so this leads to some interesting things about, say, defining functions.
07:48:02 <elliott> evincar: coppro: why haven't either of you disputed my controversial statement about computing? sheesh
07:48:07 <elliott> okay reading evincar's messages now
07:48:55 <evincar> elliott: Sort of. We are assuming a typed system.
07:49:17 <evincar> Props are unordered, first of all, so they're more like sets, but as I said, there's no notion of "ownership" of props with which a prop is imbued.
07:49:26 <elliott> evincar: yes, but props have/be props
07:49:31 <elliott> and that set is the list of props that this prop is
07:49:40 <elliott> evincar: presumably you have a few primitive props?
07:49:45 <elliott> prop = value * set(prop) | awesomeness | yayness
07:49:53 <elliott> (you get what i mean; like "builtins")
07:50:22 <evincar> elliott: Props have/be props, yes, but a prop-expression can also be treated as a prop on its own.
07:51:07 <evincar> Effectively you've got a directed graph, which can be cyclic, and also for which an edge can point to a group of nodes rather than just a single node.
07:51:38 <evincar> Although you can model the last bit as just "A -> G -> { X, Y, Z, ... }" for groups.
07:51:59 <evincar> So it's a lot more fluid than just a set.
07:52:24 <evincar> If A is B and B is C then A is C.
07:52:59 <evincar> Further, the source of an edge can be a group of nodes, so you can imbue a prop-expression with props, as well.
07:53:11 <evincar> (And this leads to the coolest syntax ever.)
07:53:32 <evincar> You can say [a divides b] means [b % a == 0].
07:53:59 <evincar> And that imbues the prop-expression "[a divides b]" with the (builtin) prop "means", which refers to "[b % a == 0]".
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07:54:31 <evincar> Whenever you say "x divides y", if there's no match on x for y, then it looks at the meaning of the expression instead, and finds a match that way.
07:54:50 <elliott> i will understand this a lot better with a spec, gotta say :)
07:55:06 <evincar> So execution of a program in a purely adjectival language constitutes lots of ridiculous pattern-matching on a mutable directed possibly-cyclic graphlike structure.
07:55:28 <evincar> Actually, mutability isn't necessarily a requirement, come to think of it, but it'd be nice.
07:55:44 <elliott> evincar: getting rid of mutability will make your execution model much more interesting -- that is my prediction
07:55:57 <elliott> it tends to, since you lose a lot of the idea of evaluation order
07:56:18 <evincar> elliott: It seems to be inherently parallel, this language.
07:56:24 <elliott> then state is even worse :)
07:56:41 <evincar> I'd definitely want to go with implicit parallelism + monads.
07:57:02 <evincar> Monads could be encapsulated in a builtin "then" property.
07:57:02 <elliott> We functional programmers support the separation of Church and state.
07:57:19 <elliott> You have a strange definition of cheeky. :)
07:57:45 <evincar> "brash; offensively bold".
07:57:57 <elliott> It was a pun. I don't see the brashness.
07:57:58 <evincar> I guess I use it in a manner somewhat more synonymous with "saucy".
07:58:12 <elliott> Oho, those saucy functional programmers.
07:58:16 <evincar> Whether that's right or not is for the prescriptivists to decide.
07:58:26 <elliott> It's certainly confusing :)
07:58:41 <evincar> Aaanyhow, I'm not sure correctness is a decidable problem. ;)
07:59:11 <evincar> Not that nothing else was.
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08:00:25 <evincar> So...yeah, it's very much Lispy in the sense that you've got essentially no syntax (or only one syntactic element, technically) and the language is just a set of fundamental operations mushing around the graph of the program.
08:00:44 <evincar> I shudder to think what self-modifying programs would look like, but I imagine they would be frighteningly beautiful.
08:01:05 <evincar> But as in Lisp, the program could easily have inherent access to its own source.
08:01:38 <elliott> I just got annoyed enough with Midori that I installed Firefox. Sigh.
08:01:55 <elliott> evincar: Lisp doesn't really have that.
08:02:13 <elliott> It has macros, sure, but a program can't say "(setq me '(exit))" or whatever.
08:02:18 <elliott> Unless you use lukego's silly hack for that. :)
08:02:36 <evincar> elliott: It has the notion of program as data, though, and you can traverse an expression-tree just as you traverse an ordinary list.
08:03:07 <elliott> evincar: The []s remind me of Nock (http://moronlab.blogspot.com/2010/01/nock-maxwells-equations-of-software.html), although it's clearly nothing like that.
08:03:16 <evincar> That's the concept I meant to refer to, and there must certainly exist a parallel in a language that's very similar in spirit but based on an entirely different data structure and model of computation.
08:03:29 <elliott> evincar: It sounds like a nice language.
08:03:38 <elliott> evincar: It sounds like something that could be adapted into something "useful", too.
08:03:57 <elliott> evincar: I would be very interested in seeing what compilation tricks you could do to a no-builtin-state version.
08:04:05 <evincar> elliott: I know, that's the frightening bit.
08:04:26 <evincar> elliott: Compilation isn't something I want to think about. A nice, stringly-typed interpreter for me, thanks, just to get it working and done.
08:04:41 <elliott> Stringly-typed -- like SNOBOL!
08:05:04 <elliott> evincar: It just sounds like the basic operation might actually be very efficient.
08:05:07 <evincar> You should prove your concepts in the fastest way possible for you, then polish them into the fastest possible thing for the computer.
08:05:25 <elliott> Yes, yes; I'm talking specifically about compilation theory here.
08:05:50 <elliott> As in... given a regular imperative CISC architecture, how efficient can we translate a bunch of applications of this one functional operation?
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08:08:45 <evincar> elliott: I wonder if the language has a single fundamental operation. :P
08:08:57 <elliott> evincar: Tree-traverse-rewrite-match-thing.
08:09:00 <evincar> I mean, it can be made complete by isomorphism with Lisp.
08:09:16 -!- mimcpher has left (?).
08:09:38 <evincar> Yeah, I was figuring search-and-rewrite-if-not-matched.
08:10:09 <evincar> Well, push-search-and-rewrite-if-not-matched-then-pop. :P
08:10:46 <evincar> So it could be implemented easily in a language that's conducive to graph- or list-based pattern-matching.
08:15:00 <coppro> oh man, graph-based pattern matching
08:15:26 <evincar> coppro: Believe me, using it as a basis for a language is the most awesome thing ever.
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08:15:50 <evincar> In fact, this is the first thing I've made that actually works whose implicationsI really don't fully understand.
08:15:52 <coppro> evincar: do you have any examples?
08:16:28 <evincar> coppro: It's not done, so I'm not releasing it yet, but I'm making it a priority, because it's cool.
08:19:47 <evincar> Here, some imperative style that runs:
08:19:50 <evincar> [a divides b] means [b % a == 0]
08:19:54 <evincar> if 3 divides n && 5 divides n
08:20:16 <evincar> Yes, I'm going with whitespace, even though I'm not a Python fan. :P
08:20:51 <coppro> how is that graph-based?
08:21:12 <evincar> It's subtle. The syntax deliberately masks it. If you were to remove the "to 100" property from the range, it would loop from 1 to forever.
08:21:40 <evincar> Bah, this is the worst example I could have given, isn't it?
08:21:51 <coppro> yeah, since every language and its brother can do that
08:22:07 <coppro> (though I do like the declaration syntax of infix divide. That's cool
08:25:30 <evincar> [(a)] means [a]; [+ [a b]] means [a + b]; [* [a b]] means [a * b]; n is (+ (* 2 3) 5)
08:25:42 <evincar> There, I just implemented prefix notation.
08:26:17 <evincar> The gist of that example was to show how context-free grammars could be trivial to write.
08:26:39 <evincar> Making it really easy to make DSLs.
08:28:09 <coppro> yeah, that's definitely cool
08:28:25 <coppro> but what about the graph-basedness?
08:29:05 <evincar> coppro: See, this is me, demonstrating how I don't understand what I've made.
08:29:22 <evincar> coppro: Let me try to come up with a better example.
08:32:38 <evincar> coppro: Okay, two very simple examples. You can write optimisations for the language in the language itself.
08:32:50 <evincar> All multiplications by two are now optimised into additons.
08:32:56 <evincar> [[a is const] x [b is const]] means [statically [a x b]]
08:33:06 <evincar> All operations between two constants are now performed statically.
08:33:31 <coppro> this could quite possibly get as nuts as Feather
08:33:35 <evincar> (The syntax is speculative.)
08:34:27 <evincar> coppro: You see, it's hard to come up with good examples. Graph-rewriting is definitely powerful, but it lacks succinct examples. It's obviously especially useful in the context of anything to do with programming languages.
08:34:53 <coppro> yeah, I think I sort of understand now
08:35:12 <coppro> ... actually, this sounds like Feather except for the lack of retroactivity
08:35:57 <evincar> coppro: But the "means" property isn't the only trick the language has up its sleeve, which is what makes it even more useful.
08:38:55 <evincar> You could provide hints such as [a == b && b == c] implies [a == c], making the transitivity of equality explicit, and subject to possible optimisation.
08:39:40 <evincar> And, naturally, you could make an "implies" for a user-defined function.
08:39:56 <evincar> Where user-defined functions are naturally specified using "means", of course.
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08:58:47 <evincar> coppro: Totally unrelated note: what's with the abysmal state of pop music? I'm happy there are a few very innovative artists, but what the hell?
09:04:16 <elliott> Consultant, McAfee Associates, Jan. 1996-Aug. 1997, Mar. 1998-Mar 1999
09:04:17 <elliott> Ported McAfee’s VirusScan product from Microsoft DOS to SunOS, Solaris, Linux, and FreeBSD.
09:04:17 <elliott> Designed and was principal programmer for WebShield, McAfee’s Linux-based antiviral firewall product.
09:04:41 <elliott> <evincar> [a divides b] means [b % a == 0]
09:04:56 <elliott> also, your addition of imperative features clouds the alnguage.
09:05:06 <elliott> <evincar> [[a is const] x [b is const]] means [statically [a x b]]
09:05:10 <evincar> elliott: I'm indecisive. :P
09:05:11 <elliott> you use x here to denote a placeholder
09:05:26 <elliott> you need a way to distinguish the two syntactically
09:05:34 <elliott> evincar: no, you're not; operator precedence is just silly in a language like this
09:05:37 <evincar> Yeah, I was arbitrarily assuming that a..z count as placeholders.
09:05:49 <elliott> <evincar> You could provide hints such as [a == b && b == c] implies [a == c], making the transitivity of equality explicit, and subject to possible optimisation.
09:05:59 <elliott> what are the semantics of "implies"?
09:06:27 <evincar> elliott: It means that the expression can be rewritten as such, but need not be. It's "can means".
09:07:03 <elliott> evincar: but if you rewrite [[a == b] && [b == c]] (you DO need the nesting, if these are *sets*) to [a == c] you lose the information that [a == b]
09:07:08 <elliott> so it isn't an equivalent transformation at all
09:07:22 <evincar> So if it helps the interpreter perform a rewrite, or if it's more efficient, then it's chosen, otherwise not.
09:07:24 <elliott> evincar: can you tell me how this is at all different from term rewriting languages?
09:08:07 <evincar> elliott: Just looking at the two props "means" and "implies", it's not.
09:08:35 <evincar> Those nifty features are for transforming the graph. coppro asked about the graph-manipulating features.
09:08:53 <elliott> evincar: are you sure you're not building five languages and then sticking them together? :)
09:09:51 <evincar> elliott: You can easily bring in other interesting things like inversion of properties, so saying "not white" actually implies any colour other than white, or anything in general, if you don't restrict it.
09:10:13 <evincar> And no, I'm not sure of that, but it's where the philosophy is taking me right now.
09:10:30 <evincar> I'm just exploring the concept because I think it deserves to be explored.
09:10:44 <evincar> I'll get a clearer direction as I go along.
09:12:26 <elliott> stomach starting to hurt. breakfast soon
09:12:38 <evincar> elliott: An important thing seems to be that props can convey loads of semantic information about the program itself, because they're inherently descriptive. So you could have a "parallel" prop, or a "quickly" prop that tries to do things using SSE or in parallel as it sees fit.
09:15:01 <evincar> elliott: Also, operator precedence is a pretty little addition that makes it nicer to use, and I see no reason why symbolic properators (coin!) can't default to having a precedence while named properties don't.
09:15:09 <evincar> Or rather, they all share the same precedence level.
09:15:10 <elliott> evincar: because if properties are sets
09:15:20 <elliott> then [a % b == 0] is the same as [% == a 0 b]
09:16:48 <evincar> elliott: Not quite, no. It's inherently infix. All expressions are assumed to be of the form "expr prop", where "prop" can be "id expr" or "properator expr" and "expr" can also be "[ expr expr* ]".
09:17:10 <elliott> evincar: Definitely scrap all this imperative nonsense, thoug.
09:17:18 <elliott> Distill and refine your core concept -- that's the way to go.
09:17:36 <evincar> elliott: I appreciate the advice, and I definitely take it to heart.
09:17:54 <evincar> The imperative nonsense was me being wishy-washy. :P
09:18:50 <elliott> evincar: In fact, I'm not convinced any sort of effect model does this paradigm well; it sounds suited to pure evaluation to me.
09:18:59 <evincar> As I implied before, I'm into existential bullshit, so I often spend a lot of time exploring the philosophical nature of something, going in totally the wrong direction with it while wandering, in order to feel that I have a deep enough sense of it to actually code it, when I probably should've just coded it from the beginning.
09:19:54 <evincar> elliott: Well, all of the effects would be internal, that's all. There has to be some notion of the current state of the graph from the interpreter's point of view.
09:19:55 <elliott> -NickServ- Last failed attempt from: elliott!~Adium@phy-dhcp-34-229.mps.ohio-state.edu on Nov 01 14:06:56 2010.
09:19:58 <elliott> hey -- would you look at that.
09:20:01 <elliott> Some Ohio fucker thinks he's me!
09:20:12 <elliott> But NO! I will defend this nick forever. Someday it will be valuable.
09:21:17 <evincar> I'm not so attached to this nick in IRC, but you'll find me under the name "evincarofautumn" everydamnwhere else.
09:21:40 <evincar> Except for a certain other persona that I'd like to keep separate from my public work.
09:21:41 <elliott> I have never been able to stick to a pseudonym.
09:21:47 <elliott> I change my mind about everything so much.
09:22:02 <elliott> evincar: Oh come on, you just know I have to try and find a link from evincarofautumn to some other guy on the web now.
09:22:33 <evincar> elliott: Good luck, I'll be interested. The only other instance I've seen of it was on an RPG Maker users' forum back in 2003 or so.
09:22:50 <elliott> evincar: Now you're giving me clues!
09:23:09 <evincar> The site is defunct. I'm not sure even Sherman and Peabody could find it.
09:23:27 <evincar> And...it's just a username, to me. It only carries a little bit of deeper meaning.
09:25:51 * elliott goes about configuring Iceweasel to not suck quite as much
09:27:28 <elliott> evincar: Talk more, this is boring! :P
09:27:39 <evincar> elliott: Hah. Every single accessible Google result seems to pertain to me, anyway.
09:27:55 <elliott> have you considered that that might not be a good thing?
09:27:59 <evincar> For some reason I can't go past many pages.
09:28:15 <elliott> wow, you're one of three people to ever use infogami
09:28:16 <evincar> Like, 7 pages in, it says I no longer have 22,000 results, but more like 70. :P
09:28:30 <evincar> elliott: I know, I was using Markdown before it was cool.
09:28:37 <elliott> "So Obama has been elected, and we've created an Obamanation. Hillary had no such luck; this is a Hillarious failure."
09:28:59 <coppro> evincar: I take it you're a Magic player?
09:29:54 <evincar> I am, but only a bit. The "evincar" name is actually (as you may find explained somewhere online) a deliberate perversion of "evincer", a nonexistent word that supposedly means "one who evinces". My username therefore ought to be spelt with a cedilla on the C, and in fact is intended to mean "he who brings the autumn forth".
09:30:16 <evincar> coppro: So, coincidence. :P
09:30:19 <elliott> tiredness setting in. fuckfuck
09:30:34 <coppro> the first word that comes to mind after 'evincar' to me is 'rath'
09:30:38 <evincar> elliott: Keep at it. I intend to stay awake until the sun has set again.
09:30:54 <evincar> ...I've heard that somewhere.
09:30:55 <elliott> and the mome raths evincarred
09:31:07 <evincar> I don't really know anything about Magic's BS backstory.
09:31:19 <coppro> evincar: In the Magic universe, the evincars were a series of rulers of the plane Rath
09:31:23 <evincar> Although a recent cstheory.stackexchange.com question proved Magic is Turing-complete.
09:31:36 <elliott> evincar: on only the second page of your name i see "xkcd"
09:31:37 <coppro> also, if memory serves, a card has evincar in the name
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09:32:06 <evincar> elliott: I joined the XKCD fora recently, so it must have been bumped up in the results because that site is so high-ranking.
09:32:52 <evincar> Oh, incidentally, I've decided to call this language, however it turns out, D-script.
09:33:00 <evincar> Since, you know, it's a delicious pun.
09:33:09 <evincar> And a fairly generic name that's also searchable.
09:34:05 <elliott> ugh tree style tab is so close to perfection
09:34:06 <evincar> elliott: Come to think of it, how will you know if a result doesn't pertain to me? Or will you just submit results to me for verification?
09:34:15 <elliott> - every link opens in a new child tab BUT history is retained
09:34:28 <elliott> - previous history is retained, vertical scrollbar; as you scroll up, more history from the past
09:36:03 <coppro> elliott: tree style tab?
09:36:15 <elliott> coppro: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/5890/
09:36:26 <elliott> it's nice but i'm still not sure i can spare any of my 1366 horizontal pixels for it
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09:37:13 <evincar> So it seems I stand a pretty good shot of being the best non-professional balalaika player on YouTube, if I just get a webcam. The majority of the people who put up videos are fairly bad amateurs, or are only interested in traditional music.
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09:38:23 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPv9VZQkxJI this guy is hilarious, what is he even
09:38:33 <evincar> There are of course a few videos of pro players and orchestras and stuff, against whom I stand no chance whatsoever.
09:38:48 <elliott> this is the worst i have heard any instrument played
09:39:04 <evincar> elliott: Old stuff. He's got presence at least.
09:39:16 <elliott> evincar: he can't breathe properly
09:39:19 <evincar> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFmZfgiczho&NR=1
09:39:40 <evincar> elliott: Very good player, but falls into the category of "only wants to do traditional music".
09:40:12 <evincar> It's an instrument that needs attention. I think it's got a great sound.
09:40:23 <elliott> it looks like an asshole instrument :)
09:41:25 <elliott> evincar: SO WHAT HAPPENED TO PROG and god googlestalking is boring
09:41:33 <evincar> elliott: Not sure what you mean. It *was* originally a peasant instrument made out of a pumpkin. :P
09:41:48 <elliott> evincar: i mean the designer was an asshole who wanted to torture people who just wanted to make some music
09:41:54 <evincar> elliott: Prog is in the feckin works, mkay? I just gave a talk about it a couple of weeks ago.
09:41:54 <elliott> by making it impossible to play
09:42:02 <elliott> evincar: THE LAST CHANGE WAS 200 DAYS AGO
09:42:05 <evincar> elliott: It's very easy to play, but hard to master.
09:42:56 <evincar> elliott: I quit using Subversion and sorta abandoned the SourceForge project because I wanted to move in a new direction with it. I got a basic compiler working, then decided that the operator precedence parser might not be the best idea and decided to rework it into an ANTLR grammar. :P
09:43:25 <evincar> Not to mention the shitloads of stuff I've reworked for concurrency's sake, after spending this past year getting really acquainted with FP.
09:44:35 <evincar> I mean, I've used Scheme and what have you enough, and I've always been comfortable with functional computing abstractions, but it wasn't until I read up on the Actor model and started preaching the benefits of immutability that I really truly got it myself.
09:44:58 <elliott> evincar: erm, you do realise Scheme basically *debunked* the actor model?
09:45:05 <elliott> and that was its claim to fame?
09:45:29 <evincar> Okay, I should probably have included "stuff like".
09:45:58 <evincar> I mean, I went through shitloads of research articles and actual programs written in various languages and taking different approaches to concurrency and parallelism.
09:46:07 <elliott> evincar: It was originally created as a vehicle to explore the actor model. But then they realised that their code for procedures and actors were identical, and so they dropped the actor code, and everything worked fine.
09:46:10 <evincar> I'm partial to implicit parallelism and monads, as I said earlier. :P
09:46:26 <elliott> Implicit parallelism is rather impractical; it was tried with Haskell but didn't work very well at all.
09:46:44 <evincar> Was tried? Is being tried. Is working just dandy, actually.
09:47:08 <elliott> because you end up parallelising even trivial expressions
09:47:13 <elliott> this is a well-known result in haskell circles
09:47:29 <evincar> elliott: There was some talk I watched in which the author of GHC discusses how he is solving those problems of granularity.
09:49:11 <evincar> I may be getting loopy here.
09:49:47 <evincar> Anyway, Haskell definitely does sequential operations right, with monads, specifically encapsulating everything nicely in the type system.
09:50:16 <evincar> If you want everything to be immutable, monads are how you need to handle sequence.
09:51:12 <evincar> Although you could say I'm just stating "Haskell's way of doing things is the best way of doing things in Haskell".
09:51:22 <evincar> Not sure whether you'd be right.
09:51:27 <elliott> Most of the high-echelon Haskell intelligentsia are dissatisfied with the IO monad.
09:51:33 <elliott> Note that monads aren't just about state and side effects...
09:53:32 <evincar> elliott: Of course. Which Haskelligentsia in particular?
09:53:42 <elliott> Conal Elliott is the main one.
09:53:45 <evincar> (By the way, I think it was Simon Peyton Jones in that lecture.)
09:54:00 <elliott> The problem is that if you say "Haskell with the IO monad is a purely functional language", then C is purely functional, too.
09:54:10 <elliott> The implication being *the IO monad is not functional, it is imperative*.
09:54:25 <elliott> And there is a functional way to do these things, FRP. Although nobody's quite figured it out yet :-)
09:54:30 <elliott> http://conal.net/blog/posts/the-c-language-is-purely-functional/
09:54:36 <evincar> elliott: Right, but who needs I/O? :P
09:54:37 <elliott> "My first inclination was to suggest that Haskell, as commonly practiced (with monadic IO), is not a functional language either. Instead, I’m going to explain how it is that the C language is purely functional."
09:57:03 <olsner> elliott: so did you get long mode running yesterday?
09:57:11 <elliott> olsner: Yesterday? I haven't slept!
09:57:17 <evincar> elliott: Yeah, I wonder how scathing he intended this to be. It could be read as fun and light, but it could conceal some dark cynicism. :P
09:57:18 <elliott> olsner: Wait, you've slept? But it went by so quickly...
09:57:35 <elliott> olsner: I decided, upon looking at your code, that what the fuck long mode is complicated and I love protected mode and my babies are all raised in a system of protectedm ode.
09:57:49 <olsner> yes, well, I didn't get much sleep tonight
09:57:54 <elliott> evincar: He's not cynical, he just doesn't think the IO monad is functional, and he thinks that FRP is nicer. :)
09:58:05 <evincar> elliott: A fair assessment.
09:58:08 <elliott> The most plausible scenario in which I am still awake at midnight involves dubious amounts of cocaine. This is not reassuring.
09:59:02 <evincar> elliott: Don't worry, it'll all be sorted out eventually. Hell, depending on how things go, you might be awake for the rest of your life.
09:59:21 <evincar> In the sense of "set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life". :P
09:59:42 <elliott> After a few seconds of tired-induced dumbness.
10:00:18 <elliott> Omg, Debian dropped support for 6800.
10:00:46 <olsner> the most complicated thing is to set up the page tables IMO, and that's not even that complicated
10:01:48 <elliott> olsner: but i'm a lazy, tired as hell fucker.
10:02:49 <evincar> elliott: Misintoned that as "But I'm a-lazy, tired as hell-fucker". That is, right now you're lazying, because you're as tired as someone who fucks hell.
10:03:13 <evincar> Well, not necessarily "because", but at least "and also".
10:03:15 <elliott> are you sure you didn't parse that properly and then decide to misparse it? :)
10:04:29 <evincar> elliott: English grammar is ambiguous. You can't prove anything. >_>
10:07:20 <evincar> I should write an esolang whose grammar is intentionally ambiguous, and whose parser decides between ambiguous expressions based on how amusing the result will be, rather than some arbitrary notion of "correctness" imposed by an ill-conceived attempt to implement DWIM.
10:08:03 <evincar> Rather it will be an arbitrary notion of "humour" imposed by an ill-conceived attempt to implement...uh, line?
10:09:59 <evincar> That is not an English word. :/
10:10:06 <evincar> Although I can't prove that.
10:13:50 <elliott> evincar: as futile as this quest is when one is so tired -- and as irritable as i am -- would you like to know of my current programming endeavour?
10:14:12 <evincar> Hey, if it keeps you awake and keeps me entertained, by all means.
10:15:00 <elliott> evincar: define a minimal term rewriting language L; write a short implementation of L in Haskell and a short implementation of L in L
10:15:04 <elliott> if the latter is not short, redesign and repeat
10:15:12 <elliott> aim for elegance on the level of the first lisp self-interpreter
10:15:27 <evincar> elliott: A noble goal, and far better-defined than mine!
10:15:50 <evincar> Although what constitutes "short" is still subjective.
10:16:11 <elliott> i am aiming for the kind of thing you might see in a Functional Pearl paper.
10:17:10 <elliott> evincar: The language needs a name -- perhaps "deinate", after DE-term-ine and term-INATE
10:17:30 <evincar> I'd be interested to do some research into language minimisation like this. What is the minimal complete subset of L for which the self-hosted implementation is minimal?
10:17:42 <elliott> evincar: btw for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_rewriting
10:17:47 <elliott> evincar: wrt self-interpreting subsets,
10:17:53 <elliott> http://catseye.tc/projects/pixley/
10:18:10 <evincar> elliott: Already saw the graph-rewriting article, while I was desperately fishing for examples in that department.
10:20:02 <elliott> although the one-qwerty-sidedness of that may irritate me at some point :)
10:20:11 <elliott> fuck! no haskell-mode installed
10:20:22 <evincar> elliott: I love how it's defined as meta-circular based on the fact that it's already a strict subset of Scheme. It seems like a cheat.
10:20:34 <elliott> when i'm tired you DO NOT GIVE ME THE EMACS I DO NOT WANT, Operating System
10:20:49 <elliott> bash: ghci: command not found
10:22:03 <elliott> evincar: see in my perfect os, when i tried to open an .hs file
10:22:11 <elliott> it would go "ok, i don't know what an .hs is; I'll look it up"
10:22:21 <elliott> and it sees, on the network, that .hs = haskell-mode is the most popular thing
10:22:28 <elliott> it would then obtain and use haskell-mode for me
10:22:33 <elliott> so i don't have to goddamn install it myself fffffffff
10:22:37 <elliott> this is what tired does to me
10:22:45 <evincar> I'd add an interstitial confirmation dialog that allowed me to pick an alternative.
10:23:38 <evincar> .hs = haskell-mode. Install? (3 alternatives, y=install, n=more, x=cancel)
10:23:50 <evincar> For y, n, and x of your preference.
10:24:07 <evincar> I haven't paid attention to any confirmation prompt in emacs for a long time.
10:24:18 <evincar> It's all chords all the time.
10:24:25 <elliott> evincar: no, because you could always just say
10:24:35 <elliott> "i would like to use a different mode"
10:24:39 <elliott> and it would have suggestions for you
10:24:49 <evincar> M-x wrong-fucking-mode-emacs
10:24:50 <elliott> no point prompting when a reasonable default can be picked, you can always override it
10:25:10 <elliott> of course, with elisp not exactly being secure and emacs sucking this will never happen :)
10:25:16 <elliott> Of course, the very concept of a *file* is stupid...
10:25:26 <elliott> ...so it's more like when you edit some text tagged as being haskell code or something, i guess
10:25:34 <evincar> What, you'd prefer to be able to arbitrarily scribble on your disk? :P
10:25:50 <elliott> evincar: you know how you have nice structures and objects and things in memory?
10:25:57 <elliott> and they're all rich and useful and aware of their own type?
10:26:06 <elliott> evincar: instead of just byte streams associated with names?
10:26:22 <elliott> evincar: yeah, you put those objects on the disk.
10:26:34 <elliott> and remove the artificial, historical RAM/disk address space distinction.
10:26:41 <evincar> In reality, in both places, you have bytes that are not associated with names. :P
10:27:07 <elliott> every bit of data in a program is reachable by some accessor unless it's garbage or not your data
10:27:17 <evincar> The association is meta-information.
10:27:19 <elliott> in C, at least, every piece of data has a name -- *(type *)address
10:27:26 <elliott> but you probably can't access most of them due to the security model
10:28:33 <elliott> evincar: here's the whiny, pissed-offness-induced rant i wrote about it early this year: http://catseye.tc/ehird/files-suck.html
10:28:45 <elliott> it is about as coherent as i would be if i tried to explain it in this state :)
10:30:49 <evincar> So...you're saying that data of a certain type ought to have a canonical representation on disk? But...file formats are created for reasons other than circumventing the leaky abstractions of file systems.
10:31:21 <elliott> i'm too tired to talk about such a heated issue, sorry :)
10:31:38 <evincar> Does encoding and decoding PNG streams really belong in a filesystem driver module? :P
10:31:55 <elliott> <evincar> Does encoding and decoding PNG streams really belong in a filesystem driver module? :P
10:32:07 <elliott> try to actually read the article, even if it is whiny :)
10:34:09 <evincar> I am, carefully. If, say, PNG is the backing format of my image, and I query the filesystem to get at the image data, either the filesystem needs to decode it into the system's canonical representation of an image, or my application needs to decode it into whatever representation it sees fit. If you place it in the system driver, you've created a perfect abstraction at the cost of bloat,...
10:34:10 <evincar> ...even if the bloat is modular.
10:34:22 <evincar> If you place it in the application, you have the same problem.
10:34:24 <elliott> you are making an invalid assumption
10:34:34 <evincar> What does it mean to say "there is no filesystem"?
10:34:57 <evincar> There has to be, at some level, a driver that manages the interaction between software and hardware.
10:35:44 <elliott> disk is big object space, ram is smaller object space acting as cache and temporary modification holding area of disk
10:35:55 <evincar> It doesn't matter *when* the serialisation takes place, but at the hardware level, it has to happen.
10:36:20 <elliott> i don't think you understand
10:36:36 <olsner> the point is that the driver doesn't implement a "file system", but rather persistent storage of objects
10:36:37 <evincar> Well, okay, here's a use case, and you give me the underlying do-how.
10:37:01 <elliott> specifically, ram is simply a cache of a selection of objects from disk that are being used right now
10:37:11 <elliott> modifications to the ram copies automatically are synchronised to disk
10:37:19 <elliott> and you can refer to any object whether it's in ram or not, and it will be loaded from disk
10:37:23 <elliott> the ram is managed by the os
10:37:24 <evincar> olsner, elliott: I understand that, but I'm asking how an application actually interacts with it.
10:37:36 <elliott> evincar: ok, here's an example
10:37:52 <elliott> myProgram = {masterpieces: {}};
10:38:09 <elliott> func myProgram.createMasterpiece(foo) { masterpieces.append(foo) }
10:38:16 <elliott> func myProgram.masterpieceNumber(n) { masterpieces[n] }
10:38:24 <elliott> func myProgram.editMasterpiece(n, foo) { masterpieces[n] = foo }
10:38:27 <elliott> create ui around that, etc.
10:38:34 <elliott> this object is automatically synchronised to disk
10:38:38 <elliott> so every masterpiece is stored on disk
10:38:46 <elliott> and if masterpiece N is loaded, but it's not in ram
10:40:35 <evincar> elliott: Okay, but that implies that the names and identities of objects are inherent in the models and implementations of the languages involved. How does a C++ program accomplish the same thing without losing performance to the fact that its memory model is no longer just flat bytes, but some kind of associative store?
10:40:54 <elliott> evincar: who says its memory model isn't flat bytes?
10:40:58 <elliott> the internal representation is irrelevant here
10:41:02 <elliott> and, in fact, forget C++ even exists
10:41:12 <elliott> it's bad enough trying to explain this to people without thinking about that awful abomination too
10:42:03 <olsner> evincar: how objects look when loaded into programs is pretty much irrelevant to the idea, I think
10:42:27 <evincar> olsner: Yes, but how do they get there and back?
10:42:44 <olsner> through an API, using abstractions
10:43:04 <elliott> from the program's point of view
10:43:05 <evincar> And that is what I was asking about, elliott.
10:43:07 <elliott> every object is always there
10:43:18 <elliott> just because it hasn't referred to a list that's a property of one of its objects
10:43:29 <elliott> you access it as a variable if it is a variable
10:43:33 <elliott> as a property if it is a property
10:43:36 <evincar> That only works in a language that is designed to support something similar.
10:43:37 <elliott> with [n] if it's a list member
10:43:55 <evincar> Okay, I was going to present you with an example.
10:44:25 <elliott> evincar: ok, imagine a program
10:44:31 <evincar> I have a program that loads a PNG, performs a convolution on the image data, and outputs the result.
10:44:33 <elliott> that stores data, in memory, a text editor that stores stuff in memory, let's say
10:44:41 <elliott> now imagine you never close down the program, ever
10:44:49 <evincar> (Well, if you had let me start in the first place...)
10:44:50 <elliott> evincar: you know the "hibernate" feature of all modern OSes?
10:45:01 <elliott> of course, you could hibernate as much as you want when running this program
10:45:05 <elliott> and it would still run just fine
10:45:13 <elliott> evincar: now imagine we wanted to store more documents than we have RAM
10:45:23 <elliott> evincar: imagine the computer is "constantly" hibernated -- the contents of RAM are constantly mirrored on disk
10:45:26 <elliott> evincar: now imagine inverting this
10:45:35 <elliott> evincar: "objects in memory" are considered to actually be on disk
10:45:42 <elliott> evincar: and RAM is merely where they are loaded to, when they are referenced
10:45:53 <elliott> the program still works, and it works even across total shutdowns
10:45:57 <elliott> and it can store more documents than fit into ram
10:45:59 <evincar> elliott: Okay, I've understood that bit.
10:46:33 <evincar> But what I'm asking is what sort of API you would present, and how, from a programmer's point of view, it would actually change anything.
10:46:54 <elliott> the exact same program that was written for a normal OS is used in the final stage, there
10:48:47 <evincar> Okay, so a program that is designed around the concepts of loading and saving named files as unadorned byte streams will still work as expected.
10:48:56 <elliott> there is no filesystem api
10:49:02 <elliott> <elliott> that stores data, in memory, a text editor that stores stuff in memory, let's say
10:49:05 <elliott> it NEVER touches any files
10:49:15 <evincar> So the same program that was written for a normal OS will NOT work. :P
10:49:26 <elliott> THE PROGRAM THAT WAS WRITTEN FOR A NORMAL OS WAS THE ONE SPECIFIC PROGRAM THAT I DESCRIBED
10:49:29 <elliott> NOT "ANY PROGRAM FOR A NORMAL OS"
10:49:37 <elliott> *THAT* SPECIFIC PROGRAM, WHICH WAS WRITTEN FOR A NORMAL OS >_<
10:50:13 <evincar> I'm not trying to be irritating.
10:50:25 <elliott> i know, and i don't hold it against you, it's just that you're succeeding :)
10:50:32 <elliott> evincar: btw, this is not some new-fangled concept.
10:50:35 <elliott> the literature has done it to death.
10:50:37 <evincar> I just...disagree with you, but you seem to think I don't understand you, so I'm trying to make sure I do before I assert you're incorrect.
10:50:42 <elliott> I think even freakin' *Multics* did it.
10:51:30 <evincar> elliott: So, alright...if I were to abstract "loading" as simply "the first read of an object, which implicitly brings it into working memory"...
10:51:39 <evincar> ..."editing" as working on a copy of that object...
10:51:53 <evincar> ...and "saving" as commiting changes...
10:52:06 <evincar> ...then would an ordinary program...
10:52:19 <elliott> olsner: you take over, i'm done
10:52:46 <olsner> nope, have to go to work :)
10:52:47 <evincar> The ability to decide when *not* to save your data is just as important as whether your data is retained.
10:53:11 <elliott> evincar: how about drop this and talk about it when i've actually slept :)
10:53:13 <olsner> actually, should've gone at least an hour ago
10:53:14 <evincar> If my documents are implicitly written to disk, how do I roll back changes? Are they versioned?
10:53:17 <elliott> or i'm just going to get really annoyed.
10:53:42 <evincar> I am trying very hard to get this.
10:53:50 <elliott> and i don't hold it against you :P
10:54:04 <evincar> Oh well. I guess right now it's just one of those things.
10:54:22 <evincar> If it's explained right, I'll get it, but until then, I feel as though it's a logical fallacy, or at least a bad idea.
10:54:25 <elliott> evincar: trust that i'm right, though :)
10:54:30 <elliott> and yes, you are misunderstanding badly.
10:54:41 <elliott> filesystems have poisoned your brain :)
10:54:55 <evincar> elliott: I will not trust that you're right, only that you think you're right, and you may very well be, but I don't know that yet.
10:55:12 <elliott> well, if it helps, i am *far* from the only person to think this.
10:55:42 <evincar> All I'm saying now is that there needs to be control over revisions in order for persistent objects to retain the backup-safety of traditional filesystems.
10:55:45 <elliott> wtf haskell what f ijiojioj what is up with you my code is right
10:55:49 <elliott> evincar: that is true, yes.
10:55:57 <elliott> evincar: but i was discussing an "api" issue not a UI one
10:56:06 <elliott> moving on to things we can talk more productively about with my tiredness!
10:56:32 <elliott> show (Conj xs) = map (\x -> '(' : show x ++ ")") xs
10:56:34 <elliott> AND WHY DOES THIS NOT WORK
10:57:51 <elliott> instance (Show e) => Show (E e) where
10:57:51 <elliott> show (Conj xs) = '(' : unwords (map show xs) ++ ")"
10:58:34 <olsner> elliott: bah, your error is obvious
10:59:08 <evincar> olsner: I feel bad for not noticing it. :P
10:59:38 <elliott> someRule :: (HoleyE, SolidE)
10:59:38 <elliott> someRule = (conj [atom "car", conj [atom "cons", hole "x", hole "y"]],
10:59:41 <evincar> Ugh, doing multiple things at once.
11:00:03 <evincar> elliott: Don't worry about it.
11:00:04 <elliott> unify :: HoleyE -> SolidE -> Maybe [(SolidE, SolidE)]
11:00:17 <elliott> so tempted to rename it HolyE
11:01:51 <evincar> Sing it like this and you've got a deal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJlAop6SyLI
11:02:10 <evincar> FUNK IT IS THE BEST DON'T YOU KNOW
11:03:38 <elliott> holy shit! my unify function is almost written and it's so simpl;e
11:04:30 <evincar> Functional programming is always startingly simple.
11:05:04 <evincar> No, of pancreatic cancer, but you're close.
11:05:22 <evincar> I'm not very easily offended.
11:05:22 <elliott> "I have pancreatic cancer." "Oh. I'm in a funk band." "Ouch, sorry man."
11:05:44 <evincar> There's a reason that funk has "fun" in it, though.
11:06:56 <evincar> elliott: Quote from a friend of mine from his professor: '...teaching the Juniors about buttons: "Why does the download arrow point down? Because the internet is above us. Go outside, look up, and you'll see it."'
11:07:18 <evincar> It's as good a justification as any.
11:08:56 <evincar> Also, another friend of mine just got a tragus piercing, which looks way cooler than it ought to.
11:10:06 <evincar> I'm not into piercing enough to get anything done. Same with tattoos. Although I hope to get my tattoo license some day.
11:10:29 <evincar> Which means I'll basically have to practice on myself if I want to get practice on skin.
11:10:32 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
11:10:34 <elliott> I find all piercings and tattoos unattractive. :/
11:10:37 <evincar> Unless I have a very tolerant partner.
11:11:05 <elliott> Couldn't match expected type `[a]'
11:11:05 <elliott> against inferred type `Maybe [(String, SolidE)]'
11:11:05 <elliott> In the first argument of `zipWith', namely `unify'
11:13:55 <elliott> *Main Control.Monad> unify (conj [atom "car", conj [atom "cons", hole "x", hole "y"]]) (conj [atom "car", conj [atom "cons", atom "head", atom "tail"]])
11:13:55 <elliott> Just [("x",head),("y",tail)]
11:14:22 <elliott> evincar: The first one there is (car (cons 'x 'y)).
11:14:26 <elliott> evincar: The second is (car (cons head tail)).
11:14:38 <elliott> evincar: And so, it matches the latter against the former and tells me to bind x=head, y=tail.
11:14:45 <elliott> (Note: 'x means placeholder x, not quote x like in lisp.)
11:15:00 <evincar> (Ah, that threw me off a moment.)
11:15:34 <evincar> Uh, I have no useful response at this time.
11:17:26 <evincar> Does it betray some latent sexism that I don't really care for female singers?
11:18:12 <elliott> Singers no, violinists probably :P
11:19:12 <evincar> I'm saying nothing of skill. I just mean I can't tolerate watching a woman play a violin because something about it irks me, regardless of how brilliant she may be.
11:19:18 <elliott> evincar: anyway, here is my unify function
11:19:21 <elliott> unify :: HoleyE -> SolidE -> Maybe [(String, SolidE)]
11:19:21 <elliott> unify (H (Atom s)) (S (Atom t)) | s == t = Just []
11:19:21 <elliott> unify (H (Conj xs)) (S (Conj ys)) = fmap concat . sequence $ zipWith unify xs ys
11:19:21 <elliott> unify (Hole s) x = Just [(s,x)]
11:19:30 <evincar> I think it might have something to do with the fact that I can't reconcile the bearing of a violinist with the proportions of a woman. They seem incompatible somehow.
11:20:44 <elliott> My evaluator is going to be pretty inefficient. But I don't care much.
11:21:26 <elliott> Also I *think* I'm going to end up with some form of dynamic scoping. Ha ha, what a life.
11:23:25 <evincar> elliott: Somehow I can't resist dynamic scoping with explicit dynamic imports. It's easy to implement and has the same effect as lexical scoping in most cases. You only have to worry about closures. *shrug*
11:23:57 <elliott> i refuse to give you a choice
11:25:16 <evincar> elliott: But...but...dynamic scoping is more expressive! And more error-prone. :P
11:25:27 <elliott> even mccarthy acknowledged it was a mistake
11:25:30 <elliott> and thats motherfucking mccarthy
11:25:34 <evincar> You know, if you actually decide it's a good idea to do a dynamic import up the call stack.
11:25:46 <elliott> you do realise the problems are far deeper than that?
11:25:59 <elliott> for instance if x is bound in your scope
11:26:11 <elliott> be passed to another function or returned
11:26:14 <elliott> YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT X WILL BE
11:26:30 <elliott> and if anyone else decided to name a variable x anywhere else in your call stack at the time, it's not what you want.
11:27:33 <evincar> Eh, judicious mixing of dynamic and lexical scoping is fine. I equate a lambda with a hygienic macro, in some ways.
11:28:04 <evincar> It should just import at the point of instantiation and the closure lasts as long as the lambda exists.
11:28:12 <evincar> My language is degrading. I hope I make any sense.
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11:30:16 <evincar> elliott: Yes, we've established that. I have strong opinions about language design, weakly held.
11:30:45 <evincar> Also, I'm contrary and rebellious and however you've got to get it done, have at.
11:31:59 <elliott> *Main Control.Monad> someExpr
11:31:59 <elliott> *Main Control.Monad> someRule
11:31:59 <elliott> *Main Control.Monad> rewrite someExpr [someRule]
11:32:09 <Vorpal> elliott, have you ever implemented an AVL tree or a Red-black tree?
11:32:31 <elliott> i don't recall ever doing so, but i've certainly read about implementing them
11:33:05 <Vorpal> elliott, right, which type of self balancing binary tree would be easiest to implement? Certainly not red-black.
11:33:17 <Vorpal> I guess AVL might be easiest, but perhaps there is some other one?
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11:33:54 <Vorpal> elliott, as for why: looking for what is easiest to memorise for an exam where something like this is likely to be required.
11:34:52 <Vorpal> chances of it requiring a specific variant is rather low... based on old exam papers for the same module
11:35:05 <elliott> do whatever okasaki did :)
11:35:30 <Vorpal> elliott, name rings a bell, can't place it *googles*
11:35:31 <evincar> Gah, charlieissocoollike is so, like, cool. And cute. <3
11:35:59 <Vorpal> elliott, purely functional data structures?
11:36:07 <Vorpal> the other google hits seem unlikely in the context
11:36:09 <evincar> elliott: He did come up with it utterly arbitrarily by tacking on words instead of numbers to "charlie".
11:36:51 <evincar> "charlie. Damn. charlieiscool. Damn. charlieissocool. Damn. charlieissocoollike. Bingo!"
11:37:30 <elliott> rewrite :: SolidE -> [(HoleyE, SolidE)] -> SolidE
11:37:31 <elliott> case catMaybes $ map (\(l,r) -> fmap ((,) r) (unify l x)) ys of
11:37:31 <elliott> (x',bs):_ -> rewrite x' (map (\(s,b) -> (atom s, b)) bs ++ ys)
11:37:32 <Vorpal> evincar, what about charlieis? wouldn't that logically be a required step after the original?
11:37:38 <elliott> in my defence, i do feel remorse for writing that.
11:38:22 <evincar> Vorpal: Ask thee not! For verily I know not.
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11:38:58 <elliott> Velmont: hi oklopol-holder
11:39:05 <elliott> unify :: HoleyE -> SolidE -> Maybe [(String, SolidE)]
11:39:05 <elliott> unify (H (Atom s)) (S (Atom t)) | s == t = Just []
11:39:05 <elliott> unify (H (Conj xs)) (S (Conj ys)) = fmap concat . sequence $ zipWith unify xs ys
11:39:05 <elliott> unify (Hole s) x = Just [(s,x)]
11:39:05 <Vorpal> elliott, ah that explains why it wasn't in Prelude either
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11:39:17 <elliott> that one is actually pretty
11:39:26 <Vorpal> elliott, what are the data types HoleyE and SolidE?
11:39:47 <elliott> data HoleyE = H (E HoleyE) | Hole String
11:39:48 <elliott> data SolidE = S (E SolidE)
11:40:26 <Velmont> Hmm. Why did I cycle? Ah, server problems. Yes.
11:40:29 <elliott> Vorpal: a data constructor?
11:40:36 <Vorpal> elliott, right, just woke up
11:40:46 <elliott> Vorpal: i haven't slept in ... many hours
11:40:50 <elliott> Vorpal: you'd do better to ask what E is
11:40:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I slept for um, 11 hours now
11:40:57 <elliott> data E e = Atom String | Conj [e]
11:41:06 <evincar> elliott: I challenge you to stay up as long as meee.
11:41:17 <elliott> Vorpal: essentially I took
11:41:22 <elliott> data E = Atom String | Conj [E]
11:41:25 <elliott> and separated the recursion out
11:41:29 <elliott> data E e = Atom String | Conj [e]
11:41:33 <elliott> data SolidE = S (E SolidE)
11:41:38 <elliott> so now SolidE is equivalent to
11:41:51 <elliott> just with a data constructor in-between to make haskell happy
11:42:00 <elliott> then i used this to create
11:42:01 <evincar> (Where meee = (lambda (x) (me (me (me (x))))).)
11:42:02 <elliott> data HoleyE = H (E HoleyE) | Hole String
11:42:08 <elliott> which is E with another constructor added on
11:42:27 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you trying to achieve with this?
11:42:34 <elliott> basically SolidE is an expression, and HoleyE is an expression with placeholders.
11:42:38 <elliott> Vorpal: it is a term rewriting language
11:42:50 <elliott> Vorpal: unify and rewrite constitute the entire evaluation engine
11:42:52 <Vorpal> now it makes some sense
11:43:08 <elliott> *Main Control.Monad> someExpr
11:43:08 <elliott> *Main Control.Monad> someRule
11:43:08 <elliott> *Main Control.Monad> rewrite someExpr [someRule]
11:43:21 <elliott> someRule is a (HoleyE, SolidE)
11:43:32 <elliott> (a b c) represents Conj [a,b,c]
11:43:36 <elliott> and foo represents Atom "foo"
11:43:42 <Vorpal> which just shows that you can't figure out most haskell code from the data type names and function names + the type signatures alone.
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11:45:24 <elliott> rewrite :: SolidE -> [(HoleyE, SolidE)] -> SolidE
11:45:24 <elliott> case mapMaybe (\(l,r) -> fmap ((,) r) (unify l x)) ys of
11:45:24 <elliott> (x',bs):_ -> rewrite x' (map (first atom) bs ++ ys)
11:45:37 <elliott> you're just insufficiently thoughtful :)
11:45:49 <elliott> Vorpal: so i'm using firefox, feel free to laugh at me
11:45:56 <Vorpal> elliott, why should I?
11:46:16 <evincar> elliott: When FP is intuitive, you are in a certain state of Zen that can only result from one of a few things, of which lack of is the easiest to come by.
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11:46:42 <Vorpal> elliott, as long as you don't use chatzilla you are unlikely to induce laughing
11:46:58 <evincar> (Highly appropriate that I omitted "sleep" from a sentence about lack thereof.)
11:47:15 <evincar> Vorpal: I'm using Chatzilla because I am lazy.
11:47:27 <Vorpal> evincar, you are not elliott however.
11:47:50 <evincar> Vorpal: elliott is known for his, ah, well, he's opinionated, eh?
11:48:26 <elliott> Y'ALL DIPSHIT FUCKERS ARE WRONG
11:48:43 <Vorpal> evincar, I guess you could say that. And I couldn't imagine him using chatzilla for any reason other than 1) because someone said he wouldn't 2) because he is not at his own computer and has no choice, but then he would probably use mibbit
11:49:42 <evincar> I am slowly remembering how hard caffeine can be on an empty stomach. I need to remember to eat more.
11:49:42 <Vorpal> if he now uses chatzilla he of course just proves that (1) holds.
11:49:44 <elliott> what kind of not-my computer has chatzilla?
11:49:54 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm too sleep-deprived for that
11:50:01 <elliott> evincar: porridge, i feel, is good in these situations; i have been eating it
11:50:05 <elliott> evincar: do you guys even know what porridge it?
11:50:18 <Vorpal> elliott, who knows. Maybe some RL friend's computer?
11:50:24 <evincar> elliott: Yes, but it's not so common.
11:50:29 <elliott> Vorpal: i do not comprehend the conjunction of these two terms :)
11:51:42 <evincar> evincar: Over here people wouldn't generally know what you were talking about unless you said "oatmeal
11:52:10 <evincar> *elliott: (the above, less fail).
11:52:12 <elliott> evincar: oatmeal isn't really the same thing though is it
11:52:15 <elliott> i mean when people say oatmeal
11:52:21 <Vorpal> strange, every night at the same time I get a few UDP packets to the same ports over my ipv6 tunnel from the same ip. Targeted at a specific non-existent IP on my subnet.
11:52:28 <elliott> they don't mean rolled oats + milk + sugar do they?
11:52:36 <elliott> to mean a lovely sweet oaty sludge
11:52:42 <elliott> they mean that but... not sweet and... weird
11:52:51 <Vorpal> the source ip is a he.net tunnel, I have a sixxs tunnel. So this makes no sense.
11:52:55 <evincar> elliott: Oatmeal is just rolled oat porridge.
11:53:09 <elliott> right, but how do you guys make it? well, when you do
11:53:22 <Vorpal> destination ports: a sweep from 33476 to 33480
11:54:06 <Vorpal> this night I'll put up tcpdump to actually dump the packets (all 40 bytes according to the ip6tables log) and figure out what they are
11:54:13 <evincar> elliott: People usually buy the instant variety, that is, packets of oats and usu. dried apple that they add boiling water to to reconstitute into what, if you're lucky, may not turn into a brick in your belly.
11:54:34 <elliott> evincar: that sounds rather terrible
11:54:35 <evincar> elliott: People who know better buy plain old oats and work from there. :P
11:54:38 <elliott> evincar: it's not hard to prepare manually :P
11:55:03 <elliott> Step one, buy Quaker oats. Their faith in God makes the oats superior. (I can see no other explanation for their obvious superiority over Scots Porage Oats.)
11:55:04 <evincar> elliott: Of course it sounds rather terrible. I was trying to make it sound terrible.
11:55:11 <elliott> (Also, as you can see, Scots can't spell. Fuckers.)
11:55:46 <evincar> If I have to have oats for breakfast, I think I'd prefer oat cakes and preserves.
11:57:08 <Vorpal> talking of porridge... how many variants do you have?
11:58:34 <Vorpal> I mean, you can use wheat instead of oats
11:58:41 <Vorpal> so oatmeal hardly makes sense
11:58:56 <evincar> Uh, hard to say. It's all oats, here, and the only real variety comes in the instant brands. Some are better than others, for instance Quaker makes a few good ones such as Simple Harvest, which is a multi-grain one that will make your guts happier than anything on the face of the planet.
11:59:06 <elliott> Vorpal: porridge here just means rolled oats.
11:59:11 <elliott> prepared in the way i describe.
11:59:18 <elliott> obviously you can add shit to it if you can't handle simplicity.
11:59:29 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Porridge.jpg this is not porridge.
11:59:33 <Vorpal> elliott, here it generally means wheat unless you specifically indicates something else
11:59:49 <evincar> Grits is a corn-based porridgey stuff.
11:59:54 <evincar> Mostly eaten in the South.
12:00:07 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porridge#Varieties <-- impressive list of different stuff you can use to make porridge!
12:00:38 <evincar> It bothers me that people outside America don't seem to know the different regions, and especially the different accents. I mean, yeah, most people here couldn't tell you shit about the UK, but I'd like the situation to be improved on both sides.
12:00:46 <elliott> http://www.inhabitat.com/wp-content/uploads/scotts-oats.jpg THE ENEMY.
12:00:52 <Vorpal> rice is a quite common base too around here for it.
12:01:01 <elliott> http://www.english-shop.de/images/Quaker%20-%20Quaker%20Oats.jpg THE GOOD GUYS.
12:01:15 <evincar> elliott: What's your accent like? I mean, where are you from?
12:01:55 <elliott> evincar: My accent is pretty generic British, I think. Which of rhotic/non-rhotic is typical for Britain? Because I'm that one.
12:02:15 <evincar> Rhotic = pronounces Rs rather than long vowels.
12:02:26 <evincar> Britain...eh...well, you can't say.
12:02:30 <evincar> England is typically non-rhotic.
12:03:13 <evincar> Vorpal: So you wouldn't really know?
12:03:15 <Vorpal> wtf, you call porridge made of rice "rice pudding" according to wikipedia
12:03:47 <evincar> Vorpal: I mean, are you saying you wouldn't know what sort of English accent you have, other than perhaps a Swedish-sounding one?
12:04:20 <evincar> Vorpal: Rice pudding is a cold, puddingy thing. How is that porridge?
12:04:29 <Vorpal> evincar, indeed, I learnt UK English in school though. So Swedish sounding with some RP bits?
12:04:38 <Vorpal> evincar, then wikipedia fails somewhere
12:04:45 <Vorpal> "Rice pudding, sweetened rice porridges usually made with milk and commonly flavored with butter and baking spices such as cinnamon. In Nordic countries, it is a traditional breakfast for Christmas Eve."
12:04:58 <Vorpal> the interwiki is to the porridge thing
12:05:08 <Vorpal> and that quote is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porridge#Varieties
12:05:34 <evincar> Vorpal: Oh, okay. Rice pudding commonly refers to Tapioca pudding.
12:05:54 <evincar> Vorpal: So it's just an issue of terminology.
12:06:17 <evincar> Again, probably an Americanism.
12:06:38 <elliott> tree style tabs is so close to perfection, argh :)
12:06:55 <evincar> I have a semi-typical educated American accent, but it's tinged a bit with New England, which has its own idiosyncracies
12:07:20 <elliott> I swear the American accents are optimised for irritatingness.
12:07:23 <Vorpal> anyway common porridge bases around here: oats, wheat, rice, (looks at interwiki...) something called "semolina" in English it seems...
12:08:05 <elliott> ever since i heard lament's lounge version of O Fortuna
12:08:07 <evincar> Major accents in the US include New England, Eastern, South, Deep South, Appalachian, Great Basin, Midwest, North, Pacific Northwest, and West...
12:08:18 <elliott> i find it hard to associate it with the orff version
12:08:19 <evincar> ...and there are loads of subdivisions in all of those.
12:08:33 <Vorpal> maybe because I think it is so awful
12:09:00 <evincar> elliott: You might be thinking of the fact that the only American accents any Brit ever imitates are the Southern hick drawl and the California ditzy girl. :P
12:09:13 <elliott> evincar: No, just Standard American.
12:09:25 <elliott> evincar: Seriously. American news programs can be really irritating. (Not talking about Fox.)
12:09:33 <elliott> It's brash like America. :)
12:09:36 <evincar> elliott: There is...not really such a thing, just like there's no "Standard English".
12:09:49 <evincar> elliott: I want to hear an example of an accent you find grating.
12:09:52 <elliott> i basically mean all of them
12:10:00 <elliott> british accents are nice and that's it :P
12:10:34 <elliott> http://filebin.ca/qyxpp/ofortuna.mp3
12:10:38 <evincar> Egh...I think some American accents are nice, some British accents are nice, some AustralioNewZealandarea accents are nice. It depends on a lot of things, including the personality and voice involved.
12:11:03 <Vorpal> elliott, AU accents aren't too bad. Though I guess in the long run they could be irritating as well
12:11:15 <elliott> i'm going to play this on loop FOREVER
12:11:16 <evincar> elliott: What is this that I'm hearing?
12:11:25 <elliott> evincar: lament's lounge version of O Fortuna.
12:11:35 <elliott> evincar: You know it as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrML6s1wNHk
12:12:07 <evincar> elliott: Oh, yes I do. I sang it in choir.
12:12:23 <elliott> evincar: Well, congrats; from now on, you will associate it with a chill lounge version.
12:12:59 <Vorpal> <elliott> i'm going to play this on loop FOREVER <-- how do you plan to deal with the heat death of the universe? Compared to "forever" that is quite soon...
12:13:12 <evincar> I'm a deep bass with a large high range. Not falsetto, head voice. I am missing a few notes, though. But it's always fun to surprise people with my low baritone on first meeting them, since I don't weigh much.
12:13:43 <evincar> People expect skinny guys to have high voices.
12:13:48 <elliott> Detestable life / now difficult / and then easy!
12:13:54 <evincar> Then again, people don't give a damn about singers with low voices. :(
12:13:59 <elliott> (Admittedly I translated it^W^Wused Wikipedia's translation.)
12:14:16 <elliott> evincar: SOME STAY DRY AND OTHERS FEEL THE PAIN
12:14:38 <evincar> elliott: I will record myself singing that song if you give me an example of a general American accent you find grating.
12:15:04 <elliott> i actually guess most american accents are fine
12:15:10 <elliott> some of them are really terrible :)
12:15:39 <evincar> I just love language stuff, so I'm interested in how we're viewed. Or, heard, rather.
12:17:43 <Vorpal> the concepts of weeks make so little sense.
12:18:37 <evincar> Vorpal: You're quite right...segmenting time in a running period that doesn't line up with the rest of the calendar? What the heck?
12:18:43 <Vorpal> for a start, the 52 weeks / year thingy? Not true for either normal or leap years.
12:19:08 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYmrg3owTRE
12:19:21 <elliott> calenders are for ... RACISTS!!!
12:19:39 <Vorpal> 7*52 is in fact 364 days
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12:20:21 <evincar> elliott: This is a disappointing video. All of the slang is from black pop-rap. :
12:20:32 <evincar> I'm so neutral my mouth fell off.
12:20:50 <Vorpal> elliott, you just passed the point between "sleep deprived and quite jolly" and "sleep deprived and incomprehensible"
12:21:12 <elliott> evincar: All of the American slang, sure :P
12:21:15 <evincar> I hardly knew any of the supposed American slang, but had heard most of the supposed British.
12:21:34 <elliott> Vorpal: but only after WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOowoOOOoooOOOOOoooOOooo
12:22:00 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe a bitmask would be a better representation of these states...
12:22:28 <evincar> elliott: "Badonkadonk? That's a fantastic word." Hugh purrs.
12:23:11 <elliott> I recall a particularly memorable moment in House when Hugh Laurie got the chance to, while putting on an excellent American accent, put on a terrible British accent.
12:23:22 <evincar> Hah, that sounds familiar.
12:23:53 <evincar> Daniel Radcliffe appeared on Ellen and did a solid Northeastern American.
12:26:58 <evincar> elliott: Do you think it's fair to say that Americans doing British accents usually end up sounding either way too posh or way too "Oi fink oi'm tehnin into a Ci'y Bri'ish"?
12:27:26 <elliott> evincar: i think it's safe to say that i have seen few try, presumably because they're not idiotic enough to think they could pull it off
12:28:09 <evincar> elliott: Makes sense. Oh, lemme look something up.
12:29:35 <evincar> elliott: A friend of mine attempting (and not accomplishing) a "British accent": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DUqw3R8KnI
12:30:14 <elliott> 7 seconds in and i want to stab someone
12:30:35 <evincar> elliott: I know, she's a nice girl but she makes me cringe. :P
12:31:01 <evincar> But this is an example of "too posh", I think, but also just awkward.
12:31:14 <evincar> At one point she slips into something that sounds more like Edinburgh. :P
12:34:49 <elliott> https://addons.mozilla.org/img/uploads/previews/full/11/11593.png?modified=0
12:36:02 <evincar> elliott: What is this dark magic?
12:44:14 <evincar> THE CONVERSATION MUST NOT DIE
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12:50:04 <evincar> elliott: I think it's about time I quit and started preparing for the day ahead.
12:50:25 <elliott> evincar: I thought you were going to stay up ridiculous times.
12:50:34 <evincar> elliott: Well, I have class in an hour and change.
12:50:55 <evincar> Yeah, I meant like take a shower and brush my teeth and stuff.
12:51:23 <elliott> DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO QUIT IRC!
12:51:46 <ais523> I'm in a seminar, but it hasn't started yet
12:52:13 <elliott> Seminarl! wow that was terrible
12:52:20 <elliott> ais523: I'm sleep-deprived; isn't that fun?
12:52:33 <ais523> elliott: you're acting sleep-deprived, at least
12:52:43 <ais523> what caused it? did you stay up all night worrying about Vorpal's exam?
12:52:53 * ais523 picks the most recent sleep-deprivation cause mentioned in this channel
12:52:59 <ais523> see, extrapolation, it's science!
12:53:17 <elliott> ais523: I was so worried he might pass, thus furthering his education and potentially putting him in a future position of power.
12:53:41 <evincar> ais523: It's true, every word. We changed the logs to protect the guilty.
12:54:04 <elliott> ais523: Or, if you're concerned with things such as facts, it's because as of yesterday my sleep schedule was precisely upside down, and I have to be up at 9 am tomorrow.
12:54:54 <ais523> that happens to me quite a bit
12:55:08 <ais523> having a regular timetable seems to help solve it, but I'm not sure if it's necessarily worth solving
12:55:26 <elliott> ais523: yeah school usually ... "helps"
12:55:52 <ais523> did you have half-term last week?
12:55:55 <elliott> ais523: I'm just going to start taking melatonin if I keep being as sleepcrastinaty as I have been.
12:56:30 <elliott> [[Iceweasel, an extension or a plugin has been installed, upgraded or removed by the system.
12:56:30 <elliott> It is strongly recommended to restart Iceweasel.
12:56:30 <elliott> Do you want to restart it now?]]
12:57:04 <elliott> evincar: It's a holiday half-way through the high school and lower "term".
12:57:34 <Vorpal> elliott, no school today?
12:57:54 <Vorpal> elliott, what about tomorrow?
12:58:13 <evincar> It's time for me to quit and get ready for MY seven hours of class, thank you very much.
12:58:28 <elliott> evincar: I saw the word "semen" in that sentence.
12:58:31 <elliott> And I'm not even sure where.
12:58:34 <Vorpal> evincar, 7 hours? can't be university then
12:58:36 <elliott> Whoo, my reading abilities are declining.
12:58:46 <evincar> Vorpal: University indeed.
12:58:47 <elliott> It was probably seven, yeah.
12:59:06 <evincar> The talk was good tonight, anyway.
12:59:12 <Vorpal> evincar, huh, generally for me it is spread out all over the week so you have 2 hours there, and then an hour free and then two hours somewhere else
12:59:21 <evincar> I'll keep the channel posted on that language.
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12:59:47 <elliott> well what you said made little sense
12:59:47 <evincar> Vorpal: I have a weird schedule this quarter. 1 hour on Mondays and Wednesdays, then seven solid on Tuesdays and Thursdays. :P
13:00:12 <Vorpal> majorly inconvenient, not enough time to go home during between since it takes about 1.5 hours home by bus from university
13:00:37 <evincar> Vorpal: That sucks for you. At least I have the luxury of living on campus.
13:00:55 <Vorpal> evincar, technically I had 6 hour labs, though almost always I finished before half the time.
13:01:07 <Vorpal> evincar, cheaper to live with parents :P
13:01:21 <elliott> Vorpal: BUT I THOUGHT SWEDEN PAID FOR EVERYTHING
13:01:23 <Vorpal> evincar, and by car it takes much less. Half an hour or so.
13:01:52 <evincar> Vorpal: Parents are seven hours away. :P And the longest class I ever had that consistently lasted that long was the four-hour critique sessions for my life drawing class back when I was an art major.
13:02:06 <elliott> why can't i resize my columns in emacs
13:02:21 <evincar> elliott: What do you mean by "resize columns"?
13:02:23 <Vorpal> evincar, what do you study now?
13:02:29 <elliott> i mean resize the split columns
13:02:55 <evincar> Vorpal: I moved from New Media Design and Imaging to New Media Interactive Development. They're both interactive media majors, but one's geared toward art and the other toward programming.
13:03:25 <Vorpal> well, rather modern CS sadly
13:04:00 <evincar> Vorpal: It should be obvious that I don't really need the programming study, but it's better for me to have a science degree than one in arts.
13:04:08 <evincar> I originally went into the design major because, you know, I'm better at programming, so I wanted to round out my education.
13:04:21 <evincar> I did well, but it wasn't satisfying.
13:04:22 <elliott> <evincar> Vorpal: I moved from New Media Design and Imaging to New Media Interactive Development. They're both interactive media majors, but one's geared toward art and the other toward programming.
13:04:26 <elliott> those both sound like the most obnoxious things ever
13:04:45 <Vorpal> evincar, that doesn't work because you wouldn't have papers to show future employers that you knew programming
13:05:12 <evincar> elliott: Not really. It's just the university's blanket term for game design, web design, and other interactive stuff.
13:05:24 <elliott> it's not even software engineering!
13:05:50 <Vorpal> elliott, saying that means he must loath whatever it is
13:05:57 <evincar> elliott: Look, I can study high-level and esoteric theoretical computer science on my own time. In school I want to be forced to practice marketable skills so I don't let them atrophy.
13:06:29 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't actually mind software engineering
13:06:34 <elliott> Vorpal: i just wish it wasn't taught as CS
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13:07:20 <evincar> elliott: And New Media majors have to take programming and software engineering in addition to mathematics and art and interface design and user experience design.
13:07:37 <elliott> ha, i shudder to think what a modern UI design course looks like.
13:08:07 <evincar> elliott: Not so bad, actually. The jury is in on what constitutes good graphic design for user interfaces. :P
13:08:31 <elliott> Vorpal: so have you slept yet
13:08:36 <evincar> Hint: it's exactly the same as good graphic design in general.
13:08:42 <elliott> right you just slept for ages
13:08:50 <elliott> evincar: if i talk i'll argue so just don't
13:08:55 <evincar> Baaah I really need to go, yeah.
13:09:04 <evincar> I'll talk to you guys later.
13:09:06 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, I didn't even have time to type "see scrollback" before you answered yourself :P
13:09:16 <Vorpal> not that I would have done that
13:09:46 <Vorpal> (I had got to "as I said before, I " when you answered yourself)
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13:32:42 <elliott> i love how my type recursion is reflected everywhere
13:32:42 <elliott> <evincar> Vorpal: I moved from New Media Design and Imaging to New Media Interactive Development. They're both interactive media majors, but one's geared toward art and the other toward programming.
13:32:46 <elliott> e :: (EC e) => Parser e -> Parser e
13:32:47 <elliott> e ee = atom <$> identifier
13:32:50 <elliott> holey = e holey <|> (char '\'' >> hole <$> identifier)
13:54:54 <elliott> Statement of Subject: Initiative Measure No. 1069 concerns the state seal.
13:54:55 <elliott> Concise Description: This measure would require the Washington State Seal to depict a tapeworm attached to a taxpayer’s intestine, encircled by the words: Committed to sucking the life blood out of each and every taxpayer.
13:54:55 <elliott> Should this measure be enacted into law? Yes [ ] No [ ]
13:54:56 <elliott> This measure would require the Seal of the State of Washington to be changed to depict a vignette of a tapeworm dressed in a three piece suit attached to the lower intestine of a taxpayer shown as the central figure. The seal would be required to be encircled with the following words: “Committed to sucking the life blood out of each and every tax payer.” The illustration would be selected from subm
13:55:01 <elliott> issions submitted by taxpayers.
14:21:32 <elliott> "The Firefox logo, the very reason why Iceweasel exists, is now free as in speech. Its use is still limited by trademarks, but it is free."
14:21:39 <elliott> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/99d80bc3f18b
14:22:42 <elliott> "Hacking for Christ" -- a worse blog title, i cannot imagine.
14:22:55 <elliott> [[Yes, I'm a Christian, and I am one because I am convinced that two thousand years ago, God walked on the earth in order to reveal himself to us. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, predicted in advance, show that he was not merely a 'good man' or even just a prophet. He brought a message of the need to turn away from our rebellion against God (what the Bible calls "sin"), and he made availabl
14:22:55 <elliott> e free, unconditional forgiveness for past and future sins to all who put their trust in him.]]
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14:33:45 <fizzie> I thought the trademark thing -- "you can't call it Firefox if you do changes we don't like" -- was the main reason they had to rebrand it to Iceweasel. Sure, the logo was non-free copyright-wise, so they dropped the logo and still called the browser Firefox, and then the Mozilla folks complained that you can't do that. (Admittedly I haven't really followed it that much.)
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14:42:13 <elliott> fizzie: Actually, the logo was the main reason.
14:42:22 <elliott> ais523: I've been interesting-tarpitting!
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15:07:49 <elliott> Heh, they've replaced gconf.
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15:49:48 <elliott> "Why haven't KDE and Xfce merged? Can they merge or does the source code not go good together? I know you can run them side by side, but I want Xfce and KDE to merge into one awesome DE (Desktop Environment)! If they could merge or if anyone knows a way to merge them then it would be better than e17 and/or Gnome, at least for me." --Ubuntu Forums
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15:58:44 <elliott> Whoa, Linux didn't use revision control until 2002.
16:02:04 * Sgeo wants everyone to stop torrenting him already
16:02:55 <Sgeo> Or downloading me
16:02:58 <Sgeo> http://freshwap.net/284/dl/sgeo
16:03:54 <Sgeo> It's pretty clear that it will claim that there are links for anything you search for
16:04:10 <Sgeo> The real mystery is how Google Alerts managed to find it as containing sgeo
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18:11:22 <Gregor> Is it me, or did this channel suddenly become
18:11:25 <Gregor> EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEME
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18:20:05 <Jackoz> elliott: I need an advice
18:20:34 <Jackoz> since you seem quite fond of functional programming :)
18:23:18 <Gregor> xtreme: Yes, we're all aware you're here, you have to actually say something with substance to get a meaningful response :P
18:23:23 <xtreme> it channel is wikipedia?
18:23:45 * Gregor elliott ... O_O ... that was the wtfiest thing ever said on IRC.
18:24:01 <Gregor> xtreme: I have no idea what that means :P
18:24:37 <elliott> xtreme: Yes, it channel is Wikipedia.
18:27:28 <elliott> xtreme: We make spells and knowledge.
18:28:48 <Jackoz> I mean asking if *it* channel is Wikiedia
18:29:25 <elliott> xtreme: ah yes, we are racists too
18:29:31 <elliott> the kkk are good friends of ours
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18:31:25 <Jackoz> you played that one too hard :(
18:31:37 <elliott> RIP #esoteric's xtremeness 2010 -- KKK
18:32:00 <Jackoz> do you think he was looking for esoteric issues?
18:32:10 <elliott> I think he was confused, and I have no idea.
18:34:18 <fizzie> There's a Finnish grocery store chain ran by a company called Kesko; their stores used to be called "K-kauppa" ("K-store") way back when; then they clustered the stores by size so that the smallest ones have one K, "regular"-sized ones are "market"s with two K's (so "KK-market"), big ones are "supermarket"s with three ("KKK-supermarket") and huge ones are "citymarket"s with four ("KKKK-citymarket").
18:34:41 <fizzie> For some reason you don't much see signage with the full "KKK-supermarket" name nowadays, it's mostly just "K-supermarket".
18:35:15 <fizzie> There's a picture of one at http://failblog.org/2008/08/19/supermarket-fail/
18:36:57 <Vorpal> <Gregor> EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEME <-- how so?
18:37:05 <fizzie> Nice comments: "It's not fake, it's in Finland." Yeah, that's pretty much synonymous.
18:37:26 <Gregor> fizzie: I'm not convinced that Finland actually exists.
18:37:58 <Gregor> Vorpal: "xtreme" had just joined the channel X_X
18:38:13 <Vorpal> Gregor, was there a netsplit or something when I quit?
18:38:20 <fizzie> * Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split)
18:38:55 <fizzie> (But it was easier to copy-paste than to type four characters.)
18:39:01 <fizzie> (Except that now I had to explain.)
18:39:04 <fizzie> (And I'm still doing it.)
18:39:25 <elliott> <Gregor> fizzie: I'm not convinced that Finland actually exists.
18:39:36 <elliott> As we have discussed, there are three people in Finland, and five of them are in this channel.
18:39:38 <elliott> One of them drives the bus.
18:39:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, probably a leaf since I lost connection to the server
18:39:47 <fizzie> Gregor: Yeah, well, I'm not convinced that YOU do! Or your MOM.
18:42:47 <fizzie> There's a rather popular (well, in Finland) Twitter account called "sporakuski" ("tram driver", colloquially), where a tram driver tweets about all the stuff he does to annoy customers. ("How fast does the tram go when it's full of old ladies? As fast as it can! AHAHA!" and so on.)
18:43:05 <Vorpal> <fizzie> There's a picture of one at http://failblog.org/2008/08/19/supermarket-fail/ <-- the comments are sad, they fail to take into account the different language and so on
18:44:01 <fizzie> Well, it *is* the fail blog.
18:47:11 <elliott> fizzie: Don't you mean the bus driver?
18:47:36 <elliott> fizzie: "830 followers" -- that counts as rather popular in Finland?
18:47:48 <elliott> I guess it's an achievement considering there's only two Finns who could friend him.
18:48:11 <fizzie> elliott: Well, he seems to have stopped tweeting in February, so maybe people have unfollowed.
18:48:45 <elliott> fizzie: That would be a strange reason to unfollow someone as it has no effect on you and you wouldn't be able to see if he started again.
18:49:00 <fizzie> Here's a Klan Market pretty near my place -- been there several times -- assuming I managed to do a Google Street View link right: http://p.zem.fi/kkk-market
18:49:46 <elliott> fizzie: Whoa, they know which way the walls of the building curve.
18:50:03 <fizzie> That's from the laser range-finders, I think. It is scary indeed.
18:51:12 <elliott> fizzie: I don't want Google to know that :(
18:53:18 * Sgeo decides to attempt to watch the black hole episode of SG-1 again
18:53:32 * Sgeo tries not to have an aneurism
18:53:49 <Vorpal> I have a link here I think elliott would really like, but I'm afraid it would be a time-waster.
18:53:53 <Sgeo> I will never learn how to spell that word
18:53:54 <Vorpal> thus it would be evil to paste it
18:55:17 <elliott> I have time to kill until sleep.
18:55:25 <elliott> http://www.google.com/chart?cht=tx&chl=x^2 <-- Apparently LaTeX rendering counts as a chart now. Who knew?
18:55:57 <Vorpal> elliott, you know the evil overlord list of things to do/don't do? Well, tvtropes has a link-heavy version of it. Plus this additional list: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesAdditionalEvilOverlordVows
18:56:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Ooh, that's SUBJECTIVE!
18:56:26 <elliott> They should move it to a TroperTales page.
18:57:01 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, the trope names are subjective, how do they deal with that?
18:57:16 <elliott> Vorpal: with the power of idiocy
18:58:59 <Vorpal> elliott, hypothesis: the size of a wiki and the stupidity of the editing rules are directly proportional.
18:59:25 <elliott> Vorpal: hmm, C2 isn't exactly big, but it's not tiny either, and their policies are almost universally good
18:59:28 <Vorpal> just look at wikipedia
18:59:33 <elliott> On the other hand, it *is* old-school.
19:00:06 <Vorpal> elliott, wikipedia has loads of stupidity, tvtropes recently started getting some
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19:19:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I am now on the verge of physically strangling my computer.
19:19:42 <Phantom_Hoover> After Googling where a computer's trachea is, of course.
19:23:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, this is a first.
19:23:46 <elliott> Vorpal: I have just seen someone argue that giving away software for free is *wrong*. As in morally.
19:23:51 <elliott> Your own software. That you made.
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19:25:20 <Vorpal> elliott, how did he/she justify it?
19:25:35 <elliott> It's in the context of mobile apps, but still:
19:25:39 <elliott> "Let's not beat around the bush. Free apps are evil. [...] When you make an app that you've sweated over and spent days crafting—so it's as good as it can be—you owe it to yourself to charge for that app. Otherwise what you're saying is your app is worthless; it's literally not worth even a small amount of someones hard earned cash. What, not even the cost of chocolate bar? Seriously can this be ri
19:25:57 <elliott> The entire, mind-numbingly colossal idiocy: http://brendandawes.posterous.com/great-work-is-worth-paying-for-why-free-apps
19:26:27 <elliott> The post after that one on this moron's blog: "This looks fantastic. Nodebox meets Processing."
19:26:33 <fizzie> My initial guess would've been some sort of "teach a man to fish" logic, about not giving other people ready-made stuff; I wouldn't have guessed *that*.
19:26:34 <elliott> Hmm, NodeBox and Processing.
19:26:38 <elliott> Two open-source applications.
19:26:43 <elliott> Distributed freely over the Internet.
19:26:53 <elliott> Oh, and running on OS X, based, at the bottom of it all, on FreeBSD.
19:27:05 <elliott> Distributed freely over the Internet...
19:27:08 <elliott> and not even a chocolate bar.
19:27:23 <Vorpal> elliott, do you expect idiocy to actually be consistent?
19:27:47 <elliott> "Amazing birthday present from Lisa: an F78 Henning Andreasen phone!"
19:27:50 <elliott> She gave you that birthday present for nothing?
19:27:56 <elliott> I guess she didn't think it was worth anything.
19:28:01 <elliott> Looks like you got punk'd, my friend.
19:28:16 <elliott> I am far too lazy for that.
19:28:30 <elliott> And he'd make some ridiculous "well, it only applies to devices you can fit in your pocket" excuse.
19:29:11 <elliott> http://www.brendandawes.com/project/mac-osx-hard-drive-icons/
19:29:15 <elliott> You are offering these icons for free?
19:29:20 <elliott> Then, they are worthless, I presume?
19:35:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: links from places that link to link that etc
19:37:15 <elliott> "You can download the source files for the presentation but note you'll need to grab the various libraries yourself - it won't run without them."
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19:47:41 <Vorpal> elliott, huh, someone just spammed #freenode with a message that included "/join #freenode"
19:48:59 <Vorpal> elliott, it will probably show up again soon enough
19:49:06 <Vorpal> elliott, since it already did once after the first kill
19:49:58 <Vorpal> elliott, if it doesn't show up soon I'll paste it or something, though it really wasn't that interesting apart from the fact I mentioned
19:50:24 * elliott wonders if RPM has been unfairly maligned
19:50:29 <elliott> what are the standard criticisms again?
19:51:15 <Vorpal> not sure, my main criticism of it is the experience of RPM hell
19:51:21 <Vorpal> and that it is cpio-based iirc
19:51:22 <coppro> which has, admittedly, been making me money
19:52:21 <elliott> no, can't figure that one out
19:52:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Isn't RPM hell just... I mean, how is it different from the hypothetical "deb hell"?
19:52:55 <elliott> cpio -- well, debs are freakin' ars
19:53:06 <Vorpal> elliott, well, deb hell never happened.
19:53:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Then what *is* RPM hell?
19:53:35 <Sgeo> Would deb hell require generally installing individual debs instead of using apt?
19:53:37 <elliott> And was it RPM's fault, or just bad distribution managers? I have never seen a satisfactory explanation.
19:53:51 <Vorpal> elliott, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependency_hell#Platform-specific
19:54:11 <elliott> "# RPM hell - A form of dependency hell occurring in the Red Hat distribution of Linux and other distributions that use RPM as a package manager[3]."
19:54:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I think it might have been a combination of red hat and rpm. This was back on red hat 5 or so
19:54:31 <Vorpal> elliott, see the entire article for what dependency hell is
19:54:44 <elliott> I know what dependency hell is, Vorpal.
19:54:53 <elliott> However, I do not see how it is specific to .rpm, rather than .deb and the like too.
19:55:50 <Vorpal> elliott, true, iirc old versions of RPM was prone to this due to not having very good ways to specify dependencies. This was so long ago I don't remember the details...
19:56:22 <Vorpal> elliott, stuff like not being able to say "needs a version between x and y of package z" but only "need package z" or "need package z version w"
19:56:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, that's an unfair slander, but this computer is being unbearable and I won't stand for it any longer.
19:56:59 <coppro> elliott: according to a quick google, RPM hell was really the problem of the central repos being sparse, and so you'd have to use other repos which would install conflicting versions of libraries sometimes
19:57:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, err okay. So I was not involved in whatever it was? Good.
19:58:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well, you delayed me by 3 days, so you must bear some responsibility.
19:58:02 <Vorpal> coppro, and the limited dependency specification support of old versions of rpm didn't help
19:58:03 <elliott> coppro: Right. So now everyone is afraid of rpm for no reason. :)
19:58:06 <coppro> but apparently the RPM structure is generally bad with dealing with awkward situations
19:58:17 <Vorpal> coppro, indeed, though not as bad as it used to be
19:58:19 <coppro> such a half-complete upgrades
19:58:31 <elliott> Vorpal: I wonder why they want people to use SASL so much.
19:58:45 <Vorpal> elliott, the spammers you mean? Who knows.
20:00:28 <Sgeo> There is a ##comment-on-spam channel
20:00:49 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well, you delayed me by 3 days, so you must bear some responsibility. <-- how
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20:02:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I remember getting a version conflict on glibc on red hat
20:09:34 <fizzie> The Slackware libc5 → glibc update was... somewhat problematical, too. Slackware and package management, though...
20:18:28 <elliott> I am not quite hardcore enough for Slackware.
20:19:04 <elliott> Tarball + dependency list + install/uninstall script + list of non-configuration files so uninstall works + simple package manager that just recurses if there's unsatisfied dependencies.
20:19:10 <elliott> I think that's the minimum I could live with.
20:20:17 <pikhq> Now to find an acceptable form of identification so I can vote.
20:20:30 <pikhq> My driver's license is missing, so can't do that.
20:20:39 <Sgeo> pikhq, signature...
20:20:45 <Sgeo> I just needed to sign
20:21:05 <Sgeo> But then again, registering to vote... I think it may be a bit late for that
20:21:14 <pikhq> I already did register.
20:21:22 <pikhq> Still need identification to vote.
20:21:43 <elliott> pikhq is going to write-in Sarah Palin. In every box. Yes, including *those* boxes.
20:21:51 <pikhq> Birth Certificate counts.
20:22:09 <Sgeo> I didn't vote in each race
20:22:17 <Sgeo> Just the ones I had some inkling of a clue about
20:22:43 <Sgeo> Even though I saw Tax Revolt Party in some races. After I voted, I kept wondering if I should have voted against them.
20:23:09 <pikhq> A fucking birth certificate counts.
20:23:10 <elliott> Congratulations -- the US has managed to convince you that voting is about voting against *them*, not voting for *them*.
20:23:18 <elliott> pikhq: DEN I GUESS OBAMA CAN'T VOTE HUH?
20:23:54 <elliott> Sgeo: "The Tax Revolt Party benefits from New York's electoral fusion laws that permit a single candidate to receive endorsements from multiple parties. The Tax Revolt Party only endorses Republican Party candidates."
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20:25:14 <Phantom_Hoover> If I tell the Ubuntu installer to use a partition as an ext4 filesystem and mount it at a location, but don't tick the "format" box, does it just mount it and leave it alone?
20:25:16 <Sgeo> I can imagine voting for a Republican some day. If said Republican were to break with party on HCR, and supported LGBT rights
20:25:56 <Sgeo> Or the Democrat were to do something incredibly offensive
20:26:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Note: If you lose your data, it's not my problem.
20:26:12 <pikhq> ... As does any other government documentation that has name and address on it.
20:26:16 <Sgeo> Or idiotic [ not knowing amendments, say ]
20:26:35 <pikhq> That's a shitty-ass requirement.
20:26:35 <Phantom_Hoover> <Sgeo> I'd vote for a Republican if they were entirely unlike a Republican and the Democrats were unpalatable!
20:27:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it won't wipe it.
20:27:19 <elliott> but if it *does*, by some weird turn of events, you cannot hold me responsible
20:28:44 <elliott> <Jean-Luc_Picard> Howcome one can't nick to "Q"?
20:28:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It *will not wipe your drive*.
20:28:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You are confusing a "cover my ass clause" with an "unsureness clause".
20:29:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Before formatting ANY partitions, the installer TELLS YOU it's going to.
20:29:19 <elliott> So if you don't tick format, and it doesn't list it, it won't be formatted.
20:29:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ...it is *designed to be able to do this*
20:29:58 <Sgeo> So Freenode cares that people not confuse a user Q from a services Q on another network
20:30:45 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott: OK, call me paranoid. It's next to no extra work and a lot of worrying off my mind.
20:31:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not paranoid; crazy. The Ubuntu installer cannot wipe any partition without displaying it in the preceding step first.
20:31:35 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott: yes, I'm not worried about accidental formatting, more overwriting during the installation process. Probably crazy as well.
20:32:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I really can't be bothered getting into this over what is, ultimately, an utterly trivial matter.
20:34:02 <Phantom_Hoover> In other news, I am informed that I will become a hopeless deadbeat with no prospects in life unless I write an essay on a poem.
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21:17:13 <olsner> I just realized: when allocating pages you may need to allocate pages for page tables
21:18:23 <olsner> then again, seemingly very difficult things always turn out to be the easy parts, and vice versa
21:23:25 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm2glu3WLGk
21:23:36 <Sgeo> Is this by the same Tool whose lyrics I'm supposed to hate?
21:26:12 <Sgeo> "Tuesday voters were advised to pay special attention to the ballot itself, which included at least one error. It did not properly instruct voters to fill in the oval below the name of the candidate of their choice."
21:26:48 <Sgeo> It looked like the oval I filled in was in the same box
21:26:54 <Sgeo> But it wasn't below the name
21:30:14 <coppro> this problem would be solved if they used voting machines right?
21:30:45 <Sgeo> This election, we switched from lever-based voting machines to filling in a paper ballot and scanning them in
21:31:28 <coppro> scanned paper ballots are sensible. Easy counting but also verifiable
21:33:09 <Sgeo> http://www.theonion.com/articles/election-day-guide,8124/
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21:48:00 <fizzie> "Document is currently being inspected. Please allow 7-10 days. No action is required by you at this time." It's been in that state 13 days now! The liars.
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22:06:45 <elliott> ais523: you've been rather quite all day...
22:08:03 <Gregor> Oh, you said rather quite.
22:15:34 <elliott> <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm2glu3WLGk
22:15:34 <elliott> <Sgeo> Is this by the same Tool [...]
22:15:45 <elliott> There's only one Tool, but, uhh, that's a cover in case you can't tell :P
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22:20:15 * Sgeo still wants there to be a single page on which he can see all his YouTube favorites (over 1000)
22:20:33 <elliott> The fact that you have over a thousand YouTube favourites speaks very, very deep things.
22:21:54 <Sgeo> My polling place is in the elementary school I used to attend...
22:26:11 <elliott> Sgeo: Wait wait -- don't tell me -- it made you nostalgic.
22:26:43 <Gregor> He recorded a video of himself voting, put it on YouTube, and favorited it.
22:26:57 <Gregor> It was over six hours long, so he broke it into 10 minute segments and favorited each of them.
22:31:06 <elliott> Gregor: I am trying to imagine the circumstances where Sgeo takes six hours to vote :P
22:31:21 <Gregor> elliott: IT WAS A VERY DIFFICULT DECISION
22:31:38 <elliott> WARNING: You selected a non-Republican candidate. Please note that if you submit this vote, all existing copies of Active Worlds will be destroyed.
22:31:50 <Sgeo> Me using my phone to ask various IRC channels who to vote for.
22:32:01 <elliott> Sgeo: Pretty sure you actually did that
22:32:34 <Sgeo> Yes, you are not correct.
22:32:42 <pikhq> Sgeo: Rule #1 of voting in the US: DO NOT VOTE FOR THE REPUBLICAN.
22:33:02 <elliott> Rule #2 of voting in the US: FAIRLY LIKELY, DON'T VOTE FOR THE DEMOCRAT EITHER.
22:33:03 <pikhq> Sgeo: Rule #2: Accept that you are voting between "shitty" and "fucking nuts".
22:33:37 <pikhq> Sgeo: Rule #3: Don't like it, engage in armed revolution. The politicians will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.
22:34:53 <elliott> Rule #4: Turns out your vote means something like jack shit in New York under a fundamentally broken election system and two-party system! But don't throw away your vote by voting for who you'd actually like to see; THE REPUBLICAN MIGHT WIN
22:35:02 <elliott> And then the SKY WOULD FALL
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22:35:52 <Sgeo> WTF is the combination key+touchpad movement that tells XChat "Oh, hey, go ahead, part this channel"?
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22:38:59 <Sgeo> pikhq never voted in the 2008 election!
22:39:45 <elliott> pikhq shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
22:40:28 -!- augur has joined.
22:42:50 <elliott> pikhq isn't denying it 'cuz it's true.
22:43:59 <pikhq> elliott: The US system is so broken that you actually have no sane option but to vote defensively. It is fucking nuts.
22:44:42 <elliott> pikhq: If I was in the US, I'd use reliable predicted results to determine what the risk of the Republicans getting in is; if it's sufficiently low, I'd vote honestly.
22:45:48 <pikhq> elliott: That is indeed defensive voting.
22:46:09 <elliott> pikhq: I've never heard of anyone do that; most idiots just vote Democrat no matter what because OMG REPUBLICANS.
22:46:13 <pikhq> elliott: In my area the Democrats need every single vote they can get to avoid the anti-tax crazies.
22:46:26 <elliott> You know what, if everyone wasn't so chickenshit, the two party system could be broken.
22:46:41 <elliott> I think that's worth a Republican candidate winning once or twice in the process.
22:46:48 <pikhq> elliott: I had to vote against 4 *different* ballot measures that would essentially bankrupt the state.
22:47:01 <elliott> Well, yeah. That's different.
22:47:11 <Sgeo> They said something about ballot measures on the back. I didn't see any
22:47:34 <Sgeo> Or maybe it said it on the ballot, which makes sense, why vary the instructions?
22:47:49 <pikhq> elliott: And the Republicans had a decent chance of winning. Including the guy who thinks that a bike sharing program is a UN plot to take over the US.
22:47:53 <Sgeo> pikhq, what measures?
22:48:12 <Sgeo> I don't think I'd be able to determine that they could bankrupt the state
22:49:48 <pikhq> Sgeo: Amendment R, which would remove property taxes for individuals or businesses who use government-owned property for a private benefit.
22:49:59 <pikhq> Sgeo: Amendment 60, which would halve property taxes.
22:50:15 <Sgeo> I don't think I'd vote on economic issues
22:50:17 <pikhq> Sgeo: Amendment 61, which would forbit the state government from ever taking out loans.
22:50:25 <Sgeo> I'm too clueless to make informed decisions
22:50:31 <elliott> Sgeo: "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." --Winston Churchill4
22:50:54 <pikhq> Sgeo: Amendment 101, which would cut vehicle, income, and telecom taxes to an 8th of the size.
22:51:33 <Sgeo> Isn't this what not having direct democracy is for? Besides administrative purposes
22:51:47 <pikhq> Sgeo: And a lot of things around here are very very underfunded because of morons who think that removing taxes just means they have more money in their pocket.
22:52:09 <pikhq> Sgeo: Anyways. If you're too uninformed to vote on something, *inform yourself*.
22:52:14 <elliott> Sgeo: All democracy relies on at least most of the people not being complete idiots.
22:52:21 <pikhq> Sgeo: We live in the fucking information age.
22:52:29 <pikhq> Sgeo: YOU CAN GET FUCKING INFORMATION.
22:52:38 <elliott> Information about fucking.
22:52:45 <pikhq> elliott: Well, yes.
22:52:51 <pikhq> elliott: The Internet is for porn, after all.
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23:08:50 <Mathnerd314> continuation: is inform 7 an esoteric programming language?
23:09:10 <Phantom_Hoover> A slow, horrible realisation creeps over you that the Befunge program is trying to take over the world.
23:10:00 <Phantom_Hoover> 45. Run away? Turn to page 74. Submit to your fungal overlord? Turn to page 89.
23:10:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that is not interactive fiction.
23:10:55 <elliott> Mathnerd314: it's strange, that's for sure
23:11:41 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ais523 wrote an esoteric interactive fiction thing once but never finished i.
23:11:45 <elliott> literally, based on esolangs
23:12:46 <elliott> Fool! I am hiring pikhq for a reason!
23:13:00 <pikhq> elliott: My standard rate is $5,000,000 an hour.
23:13:11 <pikhq> elliott: (or about £1 per week)
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23:13:36 <elliott> pikhq: How much would you say a week's worth of two people working on Kitten would be worth, to you?
23:13:44 <elliott> As part of the global value "how much Kitten is worth overall".
23:13:51 <elliott> Convert utilons to the almighty dollar.
23:14:09 <elliott> pikhq: If it's £1 per week or more, congratulations! You'll be paying yourself!
23:14:19 <elliott> pikhq: If it's less, WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST KITTEN
23:14:22 <Gregor> pikhq: Working all of 0.0004 seconds per week? That's a lot!
23:14:31 <pikhq> elliott: About several quintillion Zimbabwean Dollars.
23:14:49 <elliott> pikhq: Wow! You're making a five quadrillion times profit!
23:14:54 <elliott> pikhq: You're IN THE MONEY and I don't even have to pay you.
23:14:58 <olsner> elliott: I'd say it's worth about a week's worth
23:15:39 <pikhq> elliott: Well, such dollars aren't even worth the paper they're printed on.
23:15:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, the pay at Hoover Enterprises is £5 for every unit of influence gathered.
23:15:57 <pikhq> elliott: I'd gain money by burning them and selling the ashes.
23:16:09 <elliott> pikhq: Point is: You get to work on Kitten for free. How lucky are you?
23:18:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, OK, you can be head of the aural warfare department.
23:19:37 <Mathnerd314> what's Kitten? some other crazy vaporware I missed?
23:20:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Mathnerd314, elliott is developing it. Of course it's crazy vapourware.
23:22:47 <Mathnerd314> yeah, but I can't criticize it if I don't know what it is :p
23:24:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, if he actually makes any of its crazy vapourware it'll be as awesome as sliced bread which has been sliced again.
23:24:55 <Gregor> OMG sandwich so delicious
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23:25:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover is grossly overestimating the vapourwareness of Kitten.
23:26:08 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Kitten is possibly the least ambitious of all my projects, existing solely because stuff sucks.
23:26:44 <elliott> Mathnerd314: It's basically a Linux distribution, except probably a BSD kernel instead of Linux and without rubbish. I swear it's more interesting than that, but it's not actually meant to be hugely interesting.
23:27:10 <Gregor> Totally not Debian GNU/kFreeBSD though.
23:27:28 <elliott> Gregor: If you're meant to say "hurr you're making Debian", I'm... really not.
23:27:35 <Ilari> Uh oh... "Comcast has previously announced that they are running out of the RFC1918 space and that they are using real IPv4 addresses for internal network devices."
23:27:44 <elliott> "They use kFreeBSD and I use kNetBSD! And in every other respect we are different! LOL DUPLICATION OF EFFORT"
23:27:53 <Gregor> elliott: I have no idea, I'm just pointing out that your description there doesn't distinguish you from Debian GNU/kFreeBSD :P
23:27:56 <elliott> Gregor: That's like saying Gentoo and Ubuntu are the same because they both use Linux :P
23:28:03 <elliott> Gregor: Well, I also prefer a BSD userland.
23:28:11 <elliott> And generally... non-GNU userland.
23:28:23 <Gregor> So, you prefer a shitty outdated userland.
23:28:25 <elliott> Gregor: And I'll use the NetBSD libc, basic /sbin tools and the like.
23:28:37 <elliott> Gregor: OK, let me get this straight: non-GNU userland = outdated by definition?
23:29:00 <Gregor> It's clear what userland you're using; NetBSD's.
23:29:07 <elliott> Gregor: That is not clear at all, actually.
23:29:18 <Gregor> Well, then I made an ASSUMPTION
23:29:30 <elliott> Gregor: I *might*, but it's far from certain.
23:29:57 <elliott> Gregor: And besides, I find it really hard to conceive of a *coreutils* being outdated.
23:30:03 <pikhq> Ilari: Oooooh fuck.
23:30:04 <elliott> Seeing as they haven't changed since, y'know, 1980.
23:30:28 <Gregor> cp -a and date --iso come to mind immediately.
23:30:36 <Gregor> I know I constantly run into unsupported stuff on Mac OS X.
23:31:12 <elliott> Gregor: At the same time, tons of people use the BSD userland and have no issue with it. It *does* come down a lot to personal preference, you know.
23:31:48 <elliott> Gregor: FreeBSD cp has -a, anyway.
23:31:59 <elliott> I could easily transplant its /bin in.
23:32:02 <Gregor> elliott: Then whereTF did Mac OS X get its cp from X-D
23:32:16 <elliott> (NetBSD doesn't have cp -a)
23:32:27 <elliott> Gregor: You do realise OS X basically became a fork in 2000? :P
23:32:38 <Gregor> Yeah, but they could, y'know, MERGE.
23:33:01 <elliott> Gregor: That would be painful and expensive :P
23:33:19 <pikhq> Gregor: They even have a forked GCC.
23:33:19 <Gregor> Especially for an OS that doesn't care about developers or console users at all *shrugs*
23:33:29 <pikhq> One which is falling waaaaaay out of date.
23:34:15 <olsner> well, they are going clang+llvm anyway for GPL-FUD reasons (or whatever), so why update their gcc fork
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23:39:55 <elliott> Yeah they've abandoned gcc.
23:46:09 <pikhq> And polls have begun to close. Let election night begin!
23:48:14 <elliott> Mathnerd314: http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/
23:48:45 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: It's quite alive.
23:49:04 <olsner> I'm thinking about starting on a kernel in that language I've been building a compiler for
23:49:12 <Gregor> But Charlie, they care about you!
23:49:15 <elliott> olsner: what kinda language?
23:49:15 <olsner> now that I have the booting stuff done :)
23:49:22 <elliott> Mathnerd314: by what evidence?
23:51:05 <Mathnerd314> elliott: lack of google news search results
23:52:34 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ...are you serious?
23:52:43 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: That's a retarded criterion. Absolutely positively retarded.
23:54:14 <Mathnerd314> ok, look at ohloh: http://www.ohloh.net/p/pcc "Decreasing year-over-year development activity"
23:55:12 <pikhq> BSD is dying; Netcraft confirms it.
23:55:40 <Mathnerd314> and there's only ~1 person who committed recently
23:58:31 <elliott> Mathnerd314: you do realise ohloh's metrics suck very often?
23:58:36 <elliott> Mathnerd314: how about looking at the *actual CVS*?
23:59:10 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Furthermore: You do realise that it has been continuously maintained as a single codebase since the 70s?
23:59:15 <elliott> And many, many compilers are based on it?
23:59:21 <elliott> At some point, software just begins to mature.
00:00:11 <Mathnerd314> *unix* software begins to mature. everything else just keeps on growing
00:00:32 <pikhq> And PCC's one of the most UNIX programs out there.
00:00:36 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ...pcc is a unix program
00:00:54 <pikhq> It was written for AT&T UNIX!
00:00:55 <elliott> Mathnerd314: It was developed at Bell Labs on Unix in the 70s, the heyday of Unix.
00:01:02 <elliott> It shipped with the original BSD.
00:01:09 <elliott> It only got replaced with gcc in BSD in 1994.
00:01:21 <elliott> It was unmaintained for a while but now it's been picked up again and ported to modern systems, and it's quite C99 compliant too.
00:01:36 <elliott> It's also packaged in NetBSD core (not pkgsrc) and OpenBSD.
00:01:40 <elliott> And it can built OpenBSD's kernel.
00:02:10 <Gregor> Also, it tastes like butterflies.
00:03:00 <elliott> Gregor: So, you pretty much support Debian in everything they do right?
00:03:18 <Gregor> Pretty much. Not always. X-P
00:03:27 <elliott> Gregor: So I take it you use GNOME :)
00:03:43 <elliott> Gregor: BUT THAT'S NOT EVEN SUPPORTED IN THE INSTALLER
00:03:48 <Gregor> Also, for a distro like Debian, having a default is almost meaningless :P
00:04:06 <pikhq> I can't say I blame Gregor. They are probably the least terrible binary distro out there for general use.
00:08:15 <pikhq> There is only Zuul.
00:08:41 <Gregor> Welp, Indiana senate went red. Wooooh.
00:09:40 <pikhq> Here's hoping that doesn't become a trend.
00:09:53 <pikhq> Don't need another economic crash.
00:10:40 <Gregor> Well, Indiana barely went blue last time.
00:11:12 <elliott> (Note: This will never, ever happen)
00:11:24 <elliott> What would the fancy map colourers do if a third party won?
00:11:35 <Gregor> Kentucky stayed red (SHOCK!)
00:11:38 <elliott> "And California went.... ... um ... Orange!"
00:11:46 <Gregor> elliott: Usu. yellow or green.
00:12:00 <elliott> Gregor: Usually? Does it happen often? :P
00:12:23 <Gregor> elliott: There are two "independent" senators and a few independent or third-party representatives.
00:13:09 <elliott> Gregor: What if EVERY STATE TURNED A DIFFERENT INDEPENDENT COLOUR
00:13:21 <Gregor> "Independent" != "third-party"
00:13:25 <pikhq> Then maybe we'd develop a parliament.
00:14:13 <Gregor> Independent isn't a party. Independent is not-registered-as-any-party.
00:14:21 <Gregor> Third parties never win in the senate :P
00:14:41 <Gregor> Independents are just democrats or republicans minus the title :P
00:17:05 <Gregor> OH BOY, according to the Guardian, Kentucky went republican->tea party!
00:17:11 <Gregor> NOW WE'RE REALLY MAKING PROGRESS
00:18:03 <pikhq> Gregor: With 4% of the vote counted.
00:18:15 <Gregor> pikhq: Yeahyeahyeah :P
00:19:15 <Quadlex> Speaking of esoteric things, what's the most esoteric channel you're on, on 'Node?
00:19:24 <Sgeo> Maybe I'll vote in the primaries next time
00:19:32 <Sgeo> Try to support someone who has a chance of winning
00:19:49 <Sgeo> *cough* F U Howard Kudler *cough*
00:20:11 <pikhq> Gregor: 4% of the vote counted and the Democrat has a 10% lead.
00:20:29 <Gregor> pikhq: I'm trusting Guardian :P
00:20:46 <Sgeo> Mr. Kudler couldn't find an editor, could he?
00:20:59 <Sgeo> "If your Congressman fails to keep the economy strong, sides with the big banks, and foreign energy companies, and fails vote for programs to bring businesses, jobs and employment to Nassau and Suffolk Counties. The FIRE him! "
00:21:07 <elliott> <Quadlex> Speaking of esoteric things, what's the most esoteric channel you're on, on 'Node?
00:21:24 <Sgeo> "Does our current Congressman vote for the interests of People of Long Island, Or are his actions guided by his party and his own personal interest in America "
00:21:27 <pikhq> Sgeo: And vote for the guy who will do all that ONLY MORE.
00:21:35 <elliott> Gregor: Trusting the Guardian's first story -- EXCELLENT IDEA
00:21:35 <Gregor> I'm gonna go with ##0x50000000
00:21:45 <Sgeo> pikhq, right now I'm more raging at the .. lack of a copyeditor
00:21:46 <Gregor> That's the most esoteric channel I'm on.
00:22:15 <Quadlex> Really? In terms of 'Node's 'purpose', mine is either #cooking or #gaygeeks
00:22:44 <Gregor> Both of those should be ## channels :P
00:22:46 <olsner> elliott: I've mentioned this language before, I could summarize it as an imperative language with modules and a type system that is not as raped as C's
00:22:56 <elliott> olsner: Oh, that M++ thing
00:23:10 <olsner> well, the successor of that thing
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00:24:15 <Gregor> Quadlex: Neither appear to be.
00:27:20 <elliott> <Gregor> Both of those should be ## channels :P
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00:27:56 <Sgeo> No, this is the official channel for the esoteric programming language Esoteric
00:27:57 <pikhq> elliott: Not so. This is the official channel of the esolangs.org wiki.
00:28:09 <elliott> pikhq: Which doesn't own esoteric :P
00:28:22 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: what is Zuul? I heard it in a song and never found it.
00:28:26 <pikhq> elliott: KAJ ĈU VI HAVAS PUNKTON?
00:28:36 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: ... You must watch Ghostbusters. Nao.
00:28:38 <olsner> elliott: one of these days I might write something about the new thing...
00:28:46 <elliott> olsner: Thing some thing about thing thing.
00:29:56 <olsner> the new thing is called m3: m stands for module, I think, and 3 because I believe it's the third attempt at making something of this vague idea
00:30:10 <elliott> olsner: Modula-3 hates your guts :P
00:30:28 <olsner> yeah, I suspect it's taken a hundred times over already
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00:31:03 <elliott> olsner: Modula-3 is hardly some random name-taker :)
00:31:13 <olsner> I won't use jonguilexiphonaugh for this project either, that name should have an esolang
00:32:08 <Sgeo> So, Gregor knows something insane about me
00:32:19 <Sgeo> Um, that I haven't said here, I mean
00:32:29 <pikhq> Ah. I was about to say...
00:34:21 -!- Gregor has set topic: Official tech support channel for Esoteric | Homepage: http://esoteric.sourceforge.net/ | Spec: http://esoteric.sourceforge.net/esoteric_spec.pdf | Repository (Mercurial): http://bitbucket.org/esoteric/stable | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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00:35:25 -!- elliott has set topic: Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor, Hermetic Brotherhood of Light, Rosicrucianism, magick, gnosticism etc. | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:35:54 <elliott> Never before has a topic been such a pack of lies :P
00:36:32 <olsner> doesn't seem too far off to me
00:36:33 <elliott> <Sgeo> So, Gregor knows something insane about me
00:36:33 <elliott> <Sgeo> Um, that I haven't said here, I mean
00:36:58 <Gregor> Sgeo is a serial rapist.
00:37:11 <Sgeo> ^^not it and not true
00:37:32 <olsner> Gregor: this being the support channel for serial rapists, isn't everyone?
00:37:36 <elliott> I like how Sgeo thinks that people will think the idea of him being a serial rapist is plausible enough that he has to deny it :)
00:38:57 <Sasha> fine time to pop in
00:39:45 <elliott> Sasha: It's okay, we're just talking about rape.
00:41:11 <Sasha> I have never participated in usch activities
00:41:45 <Sgeo> You never participated in talking?
00:41:47 <olsner> it's about time you start talking then :)
00:42:01 <Mathnerd314> I wish I was better at multitasking, so I could simultaneously code, listen to your banal talk, and do my homework too
00:46:48 <olsner> skip homework :) if you stick to just coding and "listen"ing to our banal talk should be within your capacity, shouldn't it?
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00:50:18 <olsner> hmm, it seems that the more tired I am, the harder it is for me to go to bed in time
00:51:08 <olsner> I guess self-control deteriorates more quickly than I grow physically tired or something like that
00:51:31 <Mathnerd314> alternately I could skip your banal talk and do the homework and code
00:51:47 <Mathnerd314> olsner: probably your sleep schedule doesn't match what your body thinks it should be
00:52:37 <Mathnerd314> why? eliminate all those activities with strict times
00:54:10 <olsner> well, I want to get to work before lunch so that I can have lunch
00:54:40 <Mathnerd314> what? on weekends I never get up before ~1 pm
00:55:28 <olsner> today is not a weekend, nor is tomorrow
00:56:05 <Mathnerd314> but... sleep is more productive than working
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01:02:59 <Sgeo> Um, I think Rand is libertarian, so philisophically, I think
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02:18:40 <Gregor> So far this map is lookin' awfully red.
02:20:47 <Gregor> Election Alert: Fox News Projects GOP Wins Control of House :P
02:23:56 <Sgeo> I guess my vote for that K guy wasn't too helpful
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02:25:19 <Sgeo> MALDEK, who are you? Are you a regular here?
02:26:27 <pikhq> Gregor: The GOP is projected by most everyone to be red.
02:26:42 <pikhq> Gregor: But it looks like the Dems will have a narrow majority in the Senate.
02:26:52 <Gregor> <pikhq> Gregor: The GOP is projected by most everyone to be red.
02:26:54 <pikhq> Gregor: ... HOUSE. NOT GOP,
02:27:03 <Gregor> pikhq: Reread that like a billion times :P
02:27:26 <pikhq> Gregor: But anyways. Deadlock!
02:27:56 <Gregor> House is useless and the senate has deadlocked enough as-is X-P
02:28:37 <MALDEK> sgeo....btw...who are you?
02:28:40 <Sgeo> MALDEK, to give you the quick rundown: This is obstentially about computer science topics, not magic topics
02:29:05 <pikhq> They're likely to get rid of the filibuster in the Senate rules.
02:29:40 <MALDEK> sgeo...yes....thanx for the hint....let me see what happens...lol
02:29:40 <Sgeo> Constantly humbled by the sheer intellect displayed in this channel.
02:29:59 <Sgeo> See what happens...?
02:30:41 <Gregor> pikhq: That'd be nice, but we'll see :P
02:30:55 <MALDEK> sgeo...yes....i regard the screen at the moment as a nice random generator....i like th eglance at those systems while relaxing
02:31:36 <Ilari> Ah, politics, the first of three levels of "higher" flamewars.
02:31:49 <pikhq> Gregor: Revising the rules of order at the beginning of a session requires a simple majority.
02:32:00 <Sgeo> Please tell me that MALDEK is real. No one else is responding to em.
02:32:12 <Sgeo> I'm not hallucinating you, am I MALDEK?
02:32:16 <pikhq> Sgeo: The M-DALEK is real.
02:32:50 <pikhq> Gregor: Erm, not session. Term.
02:32:58 <Gregor> pikhq: Bloody nonsense :P
02:33:02 <MALDEK> sgeo...what is the qualification of a valid answer?
02:33:51 <MALDEK> would that be a case of split personlity?
02:34:09 <MALDEK> your alter ego is logged in the terminal
02:35:35 * Sgeo points at MALDEK and shouts at pikhq and Gregor. "Can't you see em?!"
02:36:27 <Sgeo> XChat's notification thing displayed the character correctly, XChat did not
02:37:08 <pikhq> e'kusutiȳa'to warui nã.
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02:42:55 <pikhq> Wow. The governor race here is a race between the Democrats and the American Constitution party.
02:45:18 <Sgeo> American Constitution party?
02:45:45 <Sgeo> For a Constitution party, it seems rather Christian
02:46:13 <pikhq> The Republicans in that race are just hoping to not be a write-in next time.
02:48:12 <Gregor> The Constitution is a joke.
02:48:31 <Gregor> I'll just stick with that, actually.
02:48:40 <Gregor> (Read: Constitution PARTY :P )
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02:51:31 <Sgeo> They literally have no concept of the meaning of religious freedom
02:52:15 <ais523> hmm, here's an esoproblem: an online game (Kingdom of Loathing) added a macro language, but it had a crazy bug, and I'm trying to figure out what was going on
02:53:29 <ais523> "sub f while !times 2 use spices endwhile endsub while !times 4 call f endwhile", "while !times 2 while !times 2 use spices endwhile endwhile", "while !times 2 while !times 4 use spices endwhile endwhile", "while !times 4 while !times 2 use spices endwhile endwhile" use spices 4, 3, 19, 5 times respectively
02:53:38 <ais523> someone needs to figure out the semantics of this and make it an esoprogram
02:54:10 <ais523> unfortunately, they fixed the bug, so no further experimentation is possible
03:02:12 <Sgeo> Were you able to talk to anyone else who experienced it?
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03:10:12 <ais523> Sgeo: no, that's all the info I have to go on
03:10:26 <ais523> and I'm really interested in what the semantics of the bug were
03:10:32 <Sgeo> Can you ask the devs?
03:10:55 <ais523> not this long after the event, this was back in April
03:11:08 <ais523> besides, it's a fun programming problem to think of a plausible bug that would make /that/ happen
03:13:05 <Sgeo> Ask them to generate more examples! </crazy>
03:13:13 <Sgeo> Surely they use version control
03:14:25 <ais523> you can't roll back to a previous version...
03:14:32 <ais523> well, in theory you could, but everyone would go mad
03:14:46 <Sgeo> How well compartmentalized is the code?
03:15:52 <ais523> Sgeo: it's an MMO, the source code to the interp for that isn't public
03:16:13 <Sgeo> So you don't know if there's a chance
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03:19:34 <ais523> I think it's pretty likely that the interp for the above language was deterministic, though
03:20:43 <Sgeo> So is a sequence that begins 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1
03:20:47 <Sgeo> Then the next number is 42
03:21:00 <Sgeo> Although I guess we could guess what sort of bugs are likely
03:22:05 <ais523> at least the second and fourth examples show a sort of pattern
03:25:27 <Gregor> I'm watching three maps: Guardian, CBS and FOX.
03:25:34 <Gregor> (To cover the whole spectrum :P )
03:25:41 <Gregor> FOX's is currently the bluest (huh?)
03:26:11 <Gregor> It's called Colorado and Pennsylvania for the Democrats, which the others haven't.
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03:56:34 <pikhq> Gregor: I strongly hope Colorado is blue.
03:56:45 <pikhq> Because Ken Buck is *positively crazy*.
03:56:59 <Gregor> If FOX has already called it for the dems, I'm thinkin' it goes blue :P
03:57:12 <pikhq> It's a very close race.
03:57:27 <pikhq> *Aaaah* I see what's happening.
03:57:32 <pikhq> The Republican vote is split.
03:58:10 <Gregor> Yeah, none of my sites make it look all that close :P
04:02:12 <Sgeo> Hey, now maybe both parties will be on board with changing how voting works
04:02:42 <Sgeo> Since here the suckiness hurts the Republican-like parties, and in the past, it hurt Democrat-like parties
04:03:08 <Sgeo> Tune in next election cycle for more "Wishful Thinking" with Sgeo Comet.
04:05:07 <Gregor> Third parties have always hurt both parties, but nobody's willing to change to a system that would potentially allow any other party to win.
04:05:32 <Gregor> Right now we have two centrist parties, both of which are mind-bogglingly terrible in their own ways :P
04:05:55 <Gregor> If you had something like runoff voting (and people understood it), there would be a potential for other parties to win.
04:06:09 <Gregor> Then we'd have actual political heterogeneity.
04:06:14 <Gregor> That'd break EVERYTHING.
04:08:14 <Sgeo> But those other parties would be at least sometimes allied with the main parties
04:08:31 <Sgeo> Otherwise, vote splitting wouldn't affect primarily one party
04:09:28 <Sgeo> Maybe, if the Tea Party sticks around, the Republicans will see it as advantageous to have a separate Tea Party coexisting with them
04:09:37 <Sgeo> Avoid O'Donnell situations in the future
04:10:03 <Sgeo> Because then O'Donnel could run concurrently with the hypothetical sane GOP candidate
04:10:25 <Sgeo> Grah, I'm actually rooting for Republicans to push for something that would have helped Republicans?
04:28:58 <pikhq> Ooooh fuck. So, the House can do subpoenas. Meaning that the Republicans willl enact a witchhunt.
04:29:19 <pikhq> On the other hand, that will really hurt elections in 2 years.
04:29:40 <pikhq> "The Republicans were nuts, just like they claimed to be. Don't vote for the fuckers again."
04:29:44 <Sgeo> subpoenas of who for what?
04:30:02 <pikhq> Sgeo: Entire Obama administration, to be annoying.
04:32:55 <pikhq> Sgeo: Remember, these are the bastards who impeached Clinton for failure to keep it in his pants.
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04:35:19 <Sgeo> Wasn't it supposedly about lying about keeping it in his pans?
04:35:39 <Sgeo> Then again, whether he kept it in his pants or not should never have come up for discussion in the first place
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05:39:28 <Gregor> Apparently in an era when sit-com married couples slept in separate beds, Rocky and Bullwinkle slept together.
05:47:40 <evincar> Gregor: Further evidence that furries have been around forever.
05:49:14 <Gregor> Of course, this show also has Dudley Do-Right, with Nell in love with Dudley's horse :P
05:49:19 <Gregor> So I guess I can't say much :P
05:51:42 <evincar> Gregor: Exactly. They're everywhere.
05:51:51 <evincar> Not that it's necessarily so bad. I mean, the vast majority of furries are just people who like to draw or write.
05:52:18 <evincar> And we probably wouldn't have any of the classic animated films that we do today if it weren't for anthropomorphic animal characters.
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06:06:00 <pikhq> WHY IS THE PRO-RAPE CANDIDATE WINNING.
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06:30:04 <evincar> pikhq: Never trust anyone whose name matches /en B.ck/.
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06:49:20 <pikhq> I think the US needs conquering.
06:49:38 <Gregor> By who? Everybody's just as fucked-up, we're just louder about it :P
06:49:39 <pikhq> How does Norway feel about conquest?
06:53:47 <evincar> pikhq: Let me know in advance so I can mosey on over to Canada before it hits the fan.
06:54:34 <pikhq> evincar: Perhaps Canada should conquer. Though they'd be too polite about it.
06:54:44 <pikhq> "Could we please take over, eh?"
06:55:02 <evincar> They'd be just as impolite as they pleased.
06:55:26 <pikhq> Yeah, but they're trying hard to be a seperate country.
06:56:39 <Gregor> Oy, if Canada took over, everything would end up written in English, French and Spanish.
06:56:43 <evincar> pikhq: Every once in a while it gets farther than it ought to, and Canada says "you can be a country when you take your share of the national debt".
06:57:18 <pikhq> Gregor: Isn't it already?
06:57:47 <Gregor> Here in AMERICA we speak AMERICAN (English) X-P
06:58:12 <pikhq> It's fairly common to add French so they can distribute to Canada easily, and Spanish for the sake of Hispanics...
07:01:36 <Gregor> Looks like no marijuana for California!
07:04:06 <pikhq> The dealers will be very happy about that.
07:08:51 * Gregor appeals to the horribly-obvious slippery-slope argument:
07:08:57 <Gregor> The dealers of cocaine, on the other hand, won't be.
07:39:43 <evincar> Gregor: This came up last night: what's your accent like?
07:39:56 <evincar> pikhq: You too, if you weren't around.
07:40:04 <evincar> I honestly don't remember right now. :P
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09:38:09 <coppro> http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Oklahoma_"Sharia_Law_Amendment",_State_Question_755_(2010)
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14:15:49 <fizzie> Possibly just a single-server glitch that didn't actually cause it to splat.
14:16:15 <fizzie> No, I think splat's funnier.
14:17:20 <fizzie> Grumble grumble Rademacher complexity.
14:19:01 <fizzie> I don't know what it is or how it works, but I'm supposed to present this machine learning paper in tomorrow's seminar course thing, and they waste half of their pages in a theoretical analysis of the Rademacher complexity of their method, so it must be something important.
14:20:23 <fizzie> It's some sort of "here's a class of functions, how complicated they are" measure; they're using it to show that the class of functions their optimization thingie can find is less complex than some alternatives, so their thing should generalize better.
14:20:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh, interesting
14:23:28 <fizzie> The definition goes \hat{R}_\ell(\mathcal{F}} = \mathbb{E}_\sigma \left[ \sup_{f \in \mathcal{F}} \left| \frac{2}{\ell} \sum_{i=1}^\ell \sigma_i f(\vec{x}_i) \right| \middle| \vec{x}_1, \dots, \vec{x}_\ell \right]
14:23:41 <fizzie> That would probably be more readable with a TeX-supporting IRC client.
14:24:07 <fizzie> There's also at least one typo: the } after \mathcal{F} should be a ).
14:24:52 <fizzie> Hey, that thing actually works.
14:24:58 <fizzie> http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=tx&chl=\hat{R}_\ell%28\mathcal{F}%29%20=%20\mathbb{E}_\sigma%20\left[%20\sup_{f%20\in%20\mathcal{F}}%20\left|%20\frac{2}{\ell}%20\sum_{i=1}^\ell%20\sigma_i%20f%28\vec{x}_i%29%20\right|%20\middle|%20\vec{x}_1,%20\dots,%20\vec{x}_\ell%20\right]
14:25:07 <fizzie> Not a pretty link, but it does what it should.
14:25:42 <fizzie> Should've probably stripped out the spaces, though.
14:26:59 <fizzie> http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=tx&chl=\hat{R}_\ell%28\mathcal{F}%29=\mathbb{E}_\sigma\left[\sup_{f\in\mathcal{F}}\left|\frac{2}{\ell}\sum_{i=1}^\ell\sigma_if%28\vec{x}_i%29\right|\middle|\vec{x}_1,\dots,\vec{x}_\ell\right]
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14:27:13 <fizzie> Not that shorter. Well, that's what URL-shorteners are for.
14:28:11 <fizzie> Oh, and instead of \vec{} it should optimally be something that does \mathbb{} instead of the silly over-arrow. Oh well.
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15:50:43 <ais523> hmm, I hate it when people do that to the topic
15:50:53 <elliott> ais523: No, we actually officially changed mission.
15:51:07 <elliott> I'm doing voodoo right now!
15:51:09 <ais523> that seems a little implausible
15:51:15 <ais523> and I expect it'd cause most of the channel to /part when they found out
15:51:22 <elliott> Don't you feel the voodoo doll stabs, ais523???
15:51:37 <elliott> (Note: I am lying through my teeth)
15:51:45 <elliott> Actually not through my teeth at all, I'm just lying.
15:51:57 -!- elliott has set topic: Not the logs unless they are: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:52:28 <ais523> hmm, I need to wind down a bit
15:52:38 <Sgeo> Just helped someone with C++ stuff
15:52:42 <ais523> I had around 5 hours sleep this morning, and this afternoon by mitsake
15:52:48 <elliott> ais523: You should listen to me talk about my efforts to create a simple term rewriting tarpit!
15:52:52 <elliott> (Note: Possibly not actually interesting)
15:52:58 <elliott> ais523: Self-interpreting, specifically.
15:53:07 <Sgeo> I needed to hit him in the head with "Don't assume the contents of the data file. The program should only know the structure"
15:53:12 <Sgeo> He's in the programming track
15:53:18 <ais523> elliott: don't worry, do the typical thing where the author of the lang monologues and other people maybe read them later
15:53:29 <Sgeo> Maybe I'm overreacting
15:53:32 <ais523> Sgeo: it's bad enough just seeing the other /teachers/ on my C course
15:53:38 <elliott> ais523: I already did that (well, with the implementation) and nobody's polite enough to pretend to be interested :)
15:53:40 <ais523> let alone some of the students
15:53:53 <ais523> elliott: I might logread it, then
15:54:12 <ais523> I'm sorry, I've been really lax with the logreading over the past couple of years
15:54:17 <Sgeo> I kind of liked xkcd
15:54:18 <elliott> ais523: It doesn't actually give any indicator as to what the language is like.
15:54:24 <elliott> Or the implementation, really, I just ranted about all my bugs :)
15:54:32 <Sgeo> It wasn't that funny, but it was cute
15:54:36 <elliott> ais523: also, logreading is hardly a duty :)
15:54:59 <elliott> Sgeo: wow, possibly worst xkcd yet
15:55:05 <elliott> wait, no, not worst xkcd yet. but -- close ...
15:55:21 <ais523> I want to make a new video codec because all the existing ones suck, at least for encoding certain sorts of video
15:55:50 <ais523> but I don't really have time
15:56:20 <elliott> ais523: Good luck doing better than H.264 :P (Yeah, I know, you've said, but still.)
15:56:53 <ais523> H.264 can't even encode a black square on a white background properly if its dimensions aren't multiples of 16
15:57:15 <elliott> LOOKS LIKE REDDIT ISN'T ALL-POWERFUL
15:57:28 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523_.
15:57:42 <elliott> ais523_: try x264 with quantisation set to 0
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15:57:56 <Sgeo> Dear Active Worlds: Upgrading one update at a time, and repeatedly bugging me, is absolute fun on a bun
15:58:00 <ais523_> elliott: hmm, how does that differ from being uncompressed?
15:58:08 <ais523_> I wasn't referring to quantisation, but to DCT artifacts
15:58:23 <elliott> ais523_: it still does all the other interesting things; it ends up being a very high quality (we're talking insane compression) lossless codec
15:58:51 <elliott> ais523_: pikhq encoded a detailed 10-minute 3D short in 1080p losslessly and it was very small.
15:58:56 <elliott> Only a few gigs; I forget the exact amount.
15:59:48 <elliott> ais523_: And it still does DCT, as far as I know.
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16:00:01 <pikhq> ais523: Quantisation is where the loss is.
16:00:12 <pikhq> ais523: The discrete cosine transform *itself* is lossless.
16:00:15 <elliott> ais523_: Basically, H.264 is not *designed* to encode pixel-accurately; no lossy codec is!
16:00:49 * pikhq shall get coffee and then go to class
16:01:12 <ais523_> elliott: indeed; it's just the sort of artifacts it creates are really visible in certain circumstances, as opposed to, say, mp3's
16:01:30 <elliott> ais523: you clearly haven't seen the pathological mp3 testcases
16:01:35 <ais523_> which is pretty much designed on the basis of trying to cause artifacts that human hearing can't detect
16:01:42 <ais523_> elliott: I'm not surprised there are pathological cases
16:01:48 <elliott> ais523_: turns out the eye is a lot more sensitive than the ear!
16:01:53 <pikhq> ais523: Also, you may want to try some of x264's presets. preset=slow tune=animation gets wonderful results on animation.
16:01:59 <ais523_> I wonder how mp3 handles, say, a pulsetrain
16:02:02 <elliott> pikhq: it isn't ais523 doing the encoding
16:02:05 <elliott> pikhq: it's insane encoding freaks
16:03:41 <ais523_> (pulsetrains have pretty close to pathological behaviour, as sound goes; I suppose a pulsetrain with random delays would be even worse)
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16:17:51 <Gregor> Wow, Alaska had more write-ins than votes for either party-line candidate.
16:18:06 <Gregor> They haven't tallied who the write-ins are for yet, though (apparently)
16:18:36 <elliott> 18:53:29 <ais523> "sub f while !times 2 use spices endwhile endsub while !times 4 call f endwhile", "while !times 2 while !times 2 use spices endwhile endwhile", "while !times 2 while !times 4 use spices endwhile endwhile", "while !times 4 while !times 2 use spices endwhile endwhile" use spices 4, 3, 19, 5 times respectively
16:18:50 <elliott> Gregor: Please, god, let it be Sarah Palin.
16:19:53 <Gregor> Apparently it's basically Republican-vs-Tea-Party.
16:20:00 <Gregor> Tea Party has 34% and the Republican ticket.
16:20:13 <Gregor> 41% is write-ins, and the Republican was running a write-in campaign.
16:20:26 <Gregor> But we don't know yet.
16:20:40 <elliott> Gregor: Upside: No longer controlled by two parties
16:20:47 <elliott> Gregor: Downside: Controlled by two parties and the Tea Party
16:21:02 <Gregor> FOX has called Colorado blue, then red, then blue; they really can't make up their damned minds :P
16:21:31 <elliott> Gregor: "Let's... let's just go with red."
16:21:32 <Gregor> (Nobody else has called Colorado anything yet)
16:24:08 <elliott> Gregor: "America's asshole"
16:46:41 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, I didn't realise -- Google made a Japanese font.
16:48:04 <ais523_> <elliott> dear god what <--- we really need oklopol or someone to help with this
16:48:13 <ais523_> at least the second and fourth examples follow an obvious pattern
16:48:31 <elliott> ais523_: oklopol has outgrown computers
16:48:50 <ais523_> oh well, someone else with the same atitude, then
16:49:11 <elliott> ais523_: yes, he hasn't programmed in like a year or two afaik, and he only does math now, even when he comes in here :)
16:51:05 <Sgeo> IDENTIFICATION DIVISION.
16:54:48 <ais523> COBOL programs are arranged like companies
16:54:51 <ais523> so they make sense to accountants
16:55:10 <elliott> ais523: wow, I just realised that
16:55:14 <elliott> (they're arranged like companies)
16:56:02 -!- Gregor has set topic: Last oerjan sighting: Oh apparently we forgot about 'im | Not the logs unless they are: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:56:31 <elliott> does anyone want to email oerjan?...
16:56:34 <ais523> why are you assuming oerjan is male?
16:56:40 <elliott> ais523: We've seen pictures?
16:56:50 <elliott> Also, oerjan has said /me [...]he[...] before.
16:56:52 <ais523> elliott: someone assumed Gregor was female on that basis...
16:57:00 <elliott> ais523: Also, oerjan has said /me [...]he[...] before.
16:57:04 <elliott> Also, said picture was very much male :P
16:57:14 <ais523> so was the picture of Gregor!
16:57:17 <elliott> Admittedly Mike Riley was also very obviously a he but I *doubt* we're dealing with that here.
16:57:18 <Gregor> None of my pictures are ambiguous :P
16:57:25 <Gregor> Unless hair length is your only determiner for sex.
16:57:27 <ais523> also, haven't you done /me [...]she[...] before?
16:57:35 <elliott> As alise, yes, but that was to deliberately confuse people.
16:57:51 <elliott> ais523: you have elevated hate of gendered pronouns to a superstitious level...
16:58:07 <elliott> Gregor: Everyone thinks I'm female :P
16:58:08 <ais523> I don't really hate them, but they make me feel awkward
16:58:24 <elliott> ais523: how do you know 'im is male?
16:58:42 <ais523> indeed, elliott believes herself female
16:58:48 <ais523> a tragic state of affairs, being agreed with by everyone
16:58:58 <Gregor> I think your male, mainly to make your "everyone" generalization wrong.
16:59:09 <Sgeo> elliott has a male?
17:00:22 <elliott> I wonder if anyone still actually uses Slackware :) *troll*
17:02:11 <Gregor> My wrong? Not your wrong?
17:02:34 <elliott> <Gregor> I think your male, mainly to make your "everyone" generalization wrong.
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17:02:59 <Sgeo> No, Gregor was literally thinking about elliott's male
17:03:31 <Sgeo> elliott's is cleverer
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17:03:42 <elliott> My male is the cleverest wrong.
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17:05:55 <Gregor> Bow ... chicka ... bow ... wow?
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17:10:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it boots to the login screen, then the mouse and keyboard have no effect whatsoever.
17:10:23 <Phantom_Hoover> The virtual terminals are inaccessible, although alt-sysrq still works.
17:11:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, that's what I'm on right now, but that's irrelevant.
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17:19:24 <elliott> Gregor: You know the best thing about reinstalling Debian?? YOU GET TO INSTALL DEBIAN!
17:26:26 <elliott> Jesus, some Debian packages are rather out of date...
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18:27:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What did you do wrong?
18:28:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott: I suspect I screwed up the fstab, but that doesn't explain *everything*.
18:30:05 <Phantom_Hoover> (It is also worth noting that $HOME was totally empty for me upon booting)
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18:33:17 <elliott> http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html I propose we adopt this time system.
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18:34:27 <elliott> It was better when I thought "person" was someone's nick, though.
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18:35:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Reinstall Ubuntu, then replace it with something that doesn't hate me!
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18:35:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just install Debian.
18:36:15 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, but I need a running OS on my hard drive before I start trying that stuff.
18:37:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A broken OS is the ideal place to install something else :P
18:37:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You can burn a CD from that Mac...
18:39:26 <Phantom_Hoover> And also, I need to DO THINGS, so it'll have to wait for a couple of hours in any case.
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18:45:08 <elliott> "As for memory, glibc 2 has more stuff than libc 5. It has to bigger libc 5. I don't call it libc 6 if it is smaller than libc 5." -- H. J. Lu
18:45:17 <elliott> SOFTWARE IS NOT ALLOWED TO GET SMALLER
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19:00:18 <Gregor> "You don't really see a 'boogie down' button in an elevator very often."
19:09:58 <coppro> pikhq: oklahoma wins 'dumbest ballot initiative'
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19:26:22 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhkxDIr0y2U THIS FOREVER AND BEYOND
19:33:26 <Vorpal> a primary reason with C code being hard to get right is that you often end up doing accesses like pointer + index in loops. Getting linked lists or trees right in C is almost trivial. Sure not as easy as a real high level language (you still have to be careful with NULL and invalid pointers).
19:33:41 <Gregor> Dudley Do-Right, "Coming Out Party"
19:33:51 <Gregor> <3 outdated English :P
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20:19:00 <elliott> http://release.debian.org/migration/oldest.html -- the forgotten packages.
20:21:10 <elliott> http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/5.0.6/i386/iso-cd/ Debian: It's 31 motherfucking CDs.
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20:52:39 <elliott> Debian reinstall time ahoy.
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21:31:07 <Vorpal> I think my printer went mad. It can print any single page just fine. Printing two the second page look like MISSINGNO
21:31:29 <Vorpal> so I can print this pdf by selecting to print one page at a time
21:31:48 <Vorpal> same thing happens from a text editor, so it isn't just pdf viewer going insane
21:31:55 <Vorpal> could be cups going insane I guess
21:33:41 <olsner> oh, you're trying to print in *linux*?
21:34:08 <Vorpal> olsner, it has worked for *years*
21:34:11 <olsner> if it's a network printer, or cat if it's local
21:34:14 <Vorpal> olsner, it's a HP printer
21:34:22 <olsner> after converting to plain ps
21:34:24 <Vorpal> worked perfectly under linux
21:34:31 <Vorpal> never got it to work well under windows
21:34:37 <olsner> bah, I refuse to believe it
21:35:14 <Vorpal> olsner, HP printers are well supported under linux. Unlike most other printers. Kind of like how Intel is well supported when it comes to GPUs
21:39:05 <Vorpal> olsner, ska ha en "datortenta" imorgon.
21:39:17 <Vorpal> (för tentor vill säga)
21:39:28 <olsner> en sån där du sitter vid dator och kodar eller?
21:40:22 <Vorpal> olsner, reglerna är ganska vaga: "förutom kursliteraturen får man ha med sig egna anteckningar" mhm... *hehe*
21:40:53 <olsner> är perfekt för kodkurser iaf
21:41:12 <Vorpal> olsner, om jag bara får skrivaren att fungera kommer jag att ha med en utskrift av en implementation av ett AVL-träd som jag skrev idag..
21:41:35 <Vorpal> såvitt jag kan se tillåter reglerna det även om det kanske inte var tanken
21:41:51 <olsner> men ... vet inte om det är värt det när man kommer på fortsättningskurserna, då är det mycket bättre om tentan testar koncept utan att man behöver koda
21:42:00 <olsner> så kan man ha labbserie eller projekt där man får koda istället
21:42:17 <Vorpal> olsner, jo, men jag läser ju inte på master-nivå än så...
21:42:19 <fizzie> Anyone's postscript printers work well; I guess HP's custom-protocol nonsense works reasonably well too, though.
21:42:37 <fizzie> I had CUPS go all confused recently too; "reinstalling" the printer fixed it, though.
21:42:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed it does. And actually after powering off and unplugging the printer then waiting a minute or so before plugging it in again it seems to work normally
21:43:05 <Vorpal> so I guess it's internal state got confused somehow
21:43:16 <Vorpal> well, it's an old printer, I'm surprised it lasted this many years
21:43:18 <olsner> the fix was to turn it off and on again? :)
21:43:34 <Vorpal> olsner, no. Nothing as simple.
21:44:11 <Vorpal> olsner, turning it off *and* unplugging, waiting for what was presumably capacitors to discharge *then* plugging it in again and turning it on
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21:46:13 <Vorpal> anyway, I can never seem to remember more than 5 minutes which rotation is which and when you use it. And well the course literature is in English, so checking that at the exam would take ages.
21:49:05 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever been in an exam which allowed any random notes; there's been some open-book ones where the course literature goes, and some with the official lecture notes too, but none with completely custom material.
21:50:26 <Vorpal> olsner, hm btw looking at the exam papers of previous years this teacher seems to have two discrete levels of imagination when making up "scenarios" for the questions... Those are: "absurd" and "utterly absurd"
21:50:40 <olsner> for me it would definitely be harder to read the book if it was in swedish
21:50:54 <Vorpal> olsner, you mean because it would be short, concise and so on?
21:51:25 <Vorpal> instead of something you could use for tactical cover in a gunfight
21:51:47 <olsner> well, no, because it would be written in swedish
21:52:02 <olsner> no-one knows any swedish computer terms
21:52:15 <olsner> and neither do I, so whatever they make up is just gibberish
21:52:25 <Vorpal> olsner, actually I have had some course Swedish litterateur, mostly they mention both terms.
21:52:50 <Vorpal> and actually work fairly well because they are *not* paid per word
21:53:15 <olsner> I think you mostly have to find the right book
21:55:00 <fizzie> There's some Finnish computer terminology "officially" specified by Kielitoimisto (the help-the-people division of the Research Institute for the Languages of Finland), and some of those are completely ludicrous and/or unknown.
21:55:04 <olsner> the "introduction to algorithms" one (http://mitpress.mit.edu/algorithms/) is not very good since it's too long
21:55:31 <Vorpal> olsner, that too. The one on data structures and such I have here in Swedish uses examples in, pseudo-code, ML and java. Not always in a redundant fashion though. Fairly good except one place. Translated to English it would say something like: "Deletion of interior nodes in red-black trees is too complex to fit the scope of this book, and is thus left as an exercise to the reader."
21:55:44 <Vorpal> which is very strange, and doesn't match at all with the rest of the book.
21:56:19 <fizzie> Most of our machine-learning/information-science/etc. textbooks haven't been so overly verbose as, say, some of the maths textbooks.
21:56:54 <olsner> we used http://www.amazon.com/Structures-Their-Algorithms-Harry-Lewis/dp/067339736X, I remember it as being concise enough
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21:57:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, moth math ones have been in Swedish for me so far
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21:58:56 <fizzie> Our basic maths course textbooks were in English; Finnish is admittedly a smaller language market, of course. More specialized courses have had some books in Finnish too. (Mostly written by our current/former lecturers.)
21:59:22 <Vorpal> anyway, a bit sad that I can't fit a full featured AVL into much less than 150 lines + 20 lines header file
21:59:31 <Vorpal> not without making it obfuscated that is
22:00:28 <fizzie> This is a not-so-bad general-purpose pattern recognition book: http://cgi.di.uoa.gr/~stpatrec/welcome3d.html -- though the Bishop book http://www.amazon.com/Pattern-Recognition-Learning-Information-Statistics/dp/0387310738/ is not bad either, I hear.
22:00:51 <fizzie> Oh, there's already a Fourth Edition of Theodoridis & Koutroumbas.
22:00:52 <Vorpal> hm single largest thing is handling walking the tree... due to handling all combinations of {pre,post,in}{left-to-right,right-to-left}
22:02:54 <Vorpal> i^i? what's the point?
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22:03:37 <Vorpal> just an irrational real number *shrug*
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22:08:42 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover_who_is_no_longer_here: Those two numbers have been there since Oct 2004.
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22:18:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, fizzie left an important message to you in the logs
22:19:34 <Phantom_Hoover_> 14:08:42 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover_who_is_no_longer_here: Those two numbers have been there since Oct 2004.
22:19:38 <fizzie> For some very small values of "important".
22:20:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, it wouldn't have sounded good if I had said "a message of no actual consequence"
22:20:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: Good, no, honest, maybe.
22:20:27 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, I was pondering why you have e^(a+bi) and i^i on your user page.
22:20:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> When, by your own account, you're a few limits short of a differential.
22:21:10 <Sgeo> I thought those were interesting
22:21:22 <Sgeo> Although i^i still confuses me
22:21:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, since truth <=> beauty, so follows that beauty <=> truth (since <=> is symmetrical)
22:22:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, and thus it must be true that it was important
22:22:39 <Vorpal> what is confusing about i^i?
22:23:12 <Vorpal> if it had turned out to be, 1 or pi or something I could have understood...
22:24:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, indeed. and that is a lot more interesting than plain i^i
22:24:17 <Sgeo> That... makes sense
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22:24:37 <elliott`> Debian -- the only operating system that ships with two graphical web browsers!
22:24:48 <Vorpal> elliott`, in the default install?
22:24:50 <fizzie> That looks way more complicated than just going e^(pi/2*i) = i => i^i = (e^(pi/2*i))^i = e^(i*(pi/2)*i) = e^(-pi/2).
22:25:01 <elliott`> Vorpal: Epiphany and Iceweasel.
22:25:16 <elliott`> Vorpal: Because GNOME ships with Epiphany and Epiphany sucks, I'd guess :)
22:25:25 <elliott`> Debian's "gnome" package is stock GNOME + Debian extras.
22:25:36 <elliott`> Presumably Iceweasel is among the extras.
22:25:41 <Sgeo> Why, exactly, is e^ai defined to be cos a + i sin a?
22:25:42 <Vorpal> elliott`, they don't have it split in multiple packages?
22:26:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, damn you beat me to it
22:26:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> Explaining that in IRC is an exercise in futility, though.
22:26:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, taylor series? indeed...
22:27:33 <Vorpal> I don't completely understand how they work myself
22:28:02 <elliott`> Vorpal: And shockingly, it even almost works with YouTube out of the box!
22:28:26 <Vorpal> elliott`, I never had problems with youtube-dl ;P
22:28:33 <elliott`> Vorpal: It loads the UI and everything, it just says "An unknown error has occurred" instead of the video.
22:28:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, the confusing bit is *why* it is so
22:28:56 <elliott`> "An error occurred, please try again later."
22:29:03 <elliott`> You know, like in a few years. When Gnash works.
22:29:23 <Vorpal> elliott`, is it an error message from gnash or from youtube?
22:29:47 <elliott`> http://www.jewtube.com/ It exists!
22:29:55 <Vorpal> elliott`, what is that page?
22:29:57 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, well, I can't explain that without calculus, which Sgeo doesn't seem to exude confidence in.
22:30:00 <Sgeo> e^(i(a+bi)) = e^(ia + ibi) = e^(-b + ai) = cos(a+bi) + i sin (a+bi) = (e^-b)(cos a + i sin a)
22:30:11 <elliott`> Vorpal: It's YouTube for Jews.
22:30:12 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, I know the basics.
22:30:32 <elliott`> Sgeo: What, exactly, do they teach you in US high school?
22:30:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, personally I always found discrete math way easier than calculus. And less of a hell when it came to exams too.
22:30:46 <elliott`> Do you get trigonometry at 17 or something? Don't answer that, I imagine the result will be depressing.
22:31:18 <Vorpal> elliott`, I doubt they teach Taylor series are in high school though
22:31:33 <elliott`> Sgeo: Was that yes to my question or Phantom_Hoover_'s?
22:31:43 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_'s
22:32:00 <elliott`> Vorpal: I think Taylor series are in the Sixth Form Further Maths course or whatever.
22:32:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, ah, right. Rings a bell now
22:32:30 <Sgeo> Although I think I was too unfocused to recognize the applicability until you mentioned it
22:33:00 <elliott`> Vorpal: Maclaurin series are definitely in sixth form further maths.
22:33:13 <elliott`> Vorpal: Now watch as I try and disable root's password and switch to sudo ENTIRELY FROM WITHIN GNOME
22:33:14 <Vorpal> elliott`, I see. Not around here though.
22:33:28 <Vorpal> elliott`, how would that be hard? just open gnome-terminal
22:33:36 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, ...ok
22:33:38 <elliott`> Vorpal: That would end up directly invoking non-GNOME programs :)
22:33:48 <Sgeo> You just seemed to have stopped talking
22:33:52 <Vorpal> elliott`, then it probably can't be done
22:34:41 <Sgeo> O...k? I'm too tired to work anything out, but I can follow along
22:35:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> Erm... OK, so we want f(x) = a_0 + a_1x + a_2x^2 + ... for some f.
22:36:05 <Sgeo> Oh, to approximate e^x?
22:36:34 <Sgeo> I... think I see where you're going with this
22:36:58 <elliott`> Vorpal: Well, I just added myself to the sudo group using GNOME.
22:37:04 <Sgeo> Do we really need to deal with the a?
22:37:12 <Sgeo> Can we just look at e^x to simplify our lives?
22:37:16 <Vorpal> elliott`, why do you hate su btw?
22:37:38 <Sgeo> Becaus then a_0 + a_1x + a_2x^2 + ... = a_1 + 2a_2x + ...
22:37:48 <elliott`> Vorpal: Did I ever say I hate su?
22:37:55 <Vorpal> elliott`, no but you acted like it
22:38:03 <Sgeo> Or is that not the direction we're going?
22:38:08 <elliott`> I don't hate su; I like sudo more, at least for a desktop.
22:38:15 <Vorpal> elliott`, why is that?
22:38:36 <elliott`> You have almost certainly heard all the arguments and come up with counter-arguments, so what's the point?
22:38:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, thank you for reminding me why I prefer discrete math.
22:39:15 <Vorpal> elliott`, personally I don't care about sudo vs. su
22:39:21 * Sgeo decides to pretend that descrete math doesn't exist
22:39:59 <elliott`> Vorpal: If I didn't use sudo, I'd just have root's password be my user password, which is absurd.
22:40:05 <Vorpal> elliott`, well okay, sudo is somewhat more complex than su, thus potentially prone to more bugs. I do remember seeing the occasional CVE for sudo, but su? not as far as I can remember.
22:40:20 <elliott`> Vorpal: Now the fun thing the last time I used Debian/GNOME was that PolicyKit's default confiugration really loves su, so it's hard to set it properly.
22:40:29 <Vorpal> elliott`, eh I'm not sure I completely agree that is an effect of using su
22:40:43 <elliott`> Vorpal: sudo is not, as far as I know, significantly more complex than su.
22:40:50 <elliott`> Vorpal: Also, su is a lot older, so it's likely to be much more mature.
22:40:56 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, you forgot a term in f''(x)
22:42:40 <Sgeo> Although out of curiosity, is there a strict and formal way to do that?
22:42:44 <Vorpal> elliott`, su is: check password, start shell. sudo is: read config file, parse it (and it has quite a lot of features, such as only allowing editing of files as a different user and what not), then check if we should keep some env vars, and discard some (as specified in the config), then ask user for own or target password, or none at all (as specified in the config) and so on
22:42:52 <Sgeo> Or is it just noticing the pattern and having a strong grasp why it is what it is?
22:43:08 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, yes, it's simple enough induction, but formalising it is pointless here.
22:43:17 <Vorpal> elliott`, so yes, I would call it a bit more complex
22:43:18 <elliott`> Vorpal: It's a fucking *desktop*
22:43:32 <Vorpal> elliott`, I have nothing very much against sudo. I use it myself
22:43:34 <elliott`> "such as only allowing editing of files as a different user and what not" ;; afaik it's actually just command-based
22:43:43 <Vorpal> elliott`, I was just wondering why *you* preferred sudo over su
22:44:32 <Phantom_Hoover_> That last formula is the definition of a Maclaurin series, by the way.
22:44:51 <Sgeo> That is absolutely amazing and beautiful
22:45:21 <Phantom_Hoover_> So in the case of e^x, f'*n(0) = 1, and f(x) = 1 + x + x^2/2! + x^3/3! + ...
22:46:22 <Phantom_Hoover_> You should be able to see for yourself that the derivatives of e^ix cycle between e^ix, ie^ix, -e^ix and -ie^ix.
22:47:01 <Sgeo> Oh, that's why we were talking about e^ax
22:47:23 <elliott`> [21:44] <Sgeo> That is absolutely amazing and beautiful
22:47:26 <elliott`> wait 'til you see euler's equation
22:48:21 <Phantom_Hoover_> OK, the derivatives of sin x cycle along sin x, cos x, -sin x, -cos x, ...
22:48:43 <Vorpal> kind of weird that i, pi, e ties so neatly to together when you think about it.
22:49:22 <Phantom_Hoover_> Hence f'*n(0) = 0, 1, 0, -1, ... for sin and 1, 0, -1, 0, ... for cos.
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22:51:47 <Sgeo> e^ix = 1 + ix + -x^2/2! + -x^3/3!
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22:52:16 <Phantom_Hoover_> Now, e^ix = (1 - x^2/2! + x^4/4! - ...) + i(x - x^3/3! + x^5/5! - ...)
22:52:19 <Sgeo> That should be -ix^3/3!
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22:53:06 <Phantom_Hoover_> Those two brackets are the exact series for sin and cos, so e^ix = cos x + i sin x.
22:54:18 <Sgeo> That's beautiful
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23:09:25 <elliott> Interesting Decisions, #N: Shipping TeX fonts by default. Why? I don't know...
23:09:45 <elliott> Sure makes the font selector a lot more irritating to use, though.
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23:12:10 <Phantom_Hoover_> All this mathematics has made me forget to install Debian.
23:12:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: 64-bit, right?
23:12:39 <elliott> http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/squeeze_di_beta1/amd64/iso-cd/debian-squeeze-di-beta1-amd64-netinst.iso
23:13:02 <nooga> bare debian is not funny
23:13:11 <elliott> nooga: "Bare" Debian comes with GNOME these days.
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23:13:41 <Vorpal> <elliott`> wait 'til you see euler's equation <-- his identity or his formula? I don't remember one called "equation"
23:13:56 <elliott> nooga: At least if you don't untick "Graphical environment", which presumably only someone not wanting a graphical environment would do.
23:14:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: There's a small bit of tweaking to get it workings udo-style, if you want, afterwards, but stock Debian is actually perfectly usable.
23:14:40 * elliott tells GNOME he wants to use Iceweasel, not Epiphany.
23:14:46 <elliott> (You see, the thing is, Epiphany sucks.)
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23:15:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: They just don't ship it by default and there's no obvious way to configure gksu/PolicyKit. However, once you're in the sudo group, it's just one gconf edit and one file copy and quick edit.
23:15:41 <elliott> XChat fails at text rendering when you change the font settings, brb.
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23:17:26 <Gregor> "Sources confirmed that while searching for a fertile female politician with whom to repopulate Congress, DeFazio discovered the body of a still-breathing Christine O'Donnell and crushed her neck with the heel of his shoe."
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23:17:33 <elliott_> Dear peer: wtf did I do wrong?
23:17:51 <elliott_> 15:16:01 <Phantom_Hoover_> But what do they have against sudo?
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23:18:13 <elliott_> Same thing they have against $anything_they_don't_ship_by_default_for_whatever_reason; nothing, they just don't ship it by default.
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23:21:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> I think I'll move my home directory over piecemeal, rather than all at once.
23:21:47 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
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23:21:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: No separate home partition?! !OOZOZMOOMOMG (note: i don't have one either)
23:22:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> Yeah, but I'm wary of bunging every setting from Ubuntu straight into minimalistic Debian.
23:23:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Just rm -rf .*
23:23:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Also, um, you have a terrible impression of Debian.
23:23:28 <elliott> Debian default installer is almost identical to Ubuntu that takes a bit more fiddling to get how you want :P
23:23:39 <elliott> But I'd just remove all settings, really.
23:24:02 <elliott> It's a new OS, new configuration! New hassle!
23:24:49 <elliott> zsh users, aka bash users minus a few years
23:25:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, don't do rm -rf .*
23:25:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, bad idea
23:25:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, you would lose stuff like saved passwords in mozilla, ssh keys, gpg keys
23:26:23 <fizzie> I usually -- when updating, that is -- just move my whole home directory to something like "_" or "oldhome" or "archive", and then lie to myself that I'll sort through it on my leisure.
23:26:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, alternatively: the man who spent too much time in distro support channels
23:26:46 <fizzie> (Leading to paths like ~/_/oldhome/archive/prog/_/archived_prog/old/...)
23:26:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, what distro would mangle it?
23:27:07 <Vorpal> so that you need to move stuff away
23:27:08 <fizzie> Oh, it's just that I like a clean start.
23:27:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, you don't use rolling release then
23:28:01 <elliott> Vorpal: stop being stupid and making points by condescending assumptions you know to be false
23:28:05 <elliott> fizzie is an avid Debianer :P
23:28:10 <elliott> well, for some definition of avid.
23:28:14 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal: The man with no sense of sarcasm.
23:28:20 <Vorpal> elliott, oh is he? I didn't remember that
23:28:20 <elliott> "delete all configuration"
23:28:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I just concluded that he didn't use rolling release based on the evidence
23:29:44 <fizzie> That's not really any sort of evidence.
23:30:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, it would be rather ill-defined what a major upgrade on rolling release was. And if it was every upgrade it would be rather inconvenient since they happen all the time
23:30:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, unetbootin?
23:30:39 <fizzie> Last reinstall was when switching from Debian to Ubuntu on this workstation. (But I still have all other computers here Debian installations, so I'm still an avid Debianer, just a bit less avid.)
23:31:17 <fizzie> And the one before that when I switched in some much larger HDs, and took that as a good chance to pretend I'd clean up my ~ again.
23:31:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, alternative answers: Using a computer. By plugging the flash drive into the relevant (probably USB) port.
23:31:48 <fizzie> So no, I don't wipe out ~ on every "aptitude upgrade".
23:31:50 <Vorpal> I suspect the first one was most useful though
23:32:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, iirc you need a special boot sector
23:32:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, unetbootin is easy to use
23:33:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, GUI program and all that
23:37:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> [[# Trigonometry or Algebra 3 or Pre-Calculus: ages 15+]] — WP, on the US maths curriculum.
23:37:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> [[# Calculus: ages 16+ (usually seen in 12th grade, if at all; some honors students may see it earlier).]] AAA
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23:54:15 <coppro> pikhq: did you see my complaint about Oklahoma?
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00:03:06 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:09 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:14 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:22 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:26 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:36 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:40 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:46 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:51 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:54 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:59 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:04:07 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:06:05 <Sgeo> MonoDevelop or SharpDevelop?
00:08:54 <Sgeo> http://www.icsharpcode.net/opensource/sd/
00:10:48 <Sgeo> I'm just going to go ahead and assume that both SharpDevelop and MonoDevelop are more lightweight than Visual Studio
00:11:06 <oklopol> visual studio i've used, it's a nice text editor
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00:16:08 <Mathnerd314> oklopol: saying 'okokoko...' lots of times
00:17:24 <Mathnerd314> elliott: exactly. when did you come to this realization?
00:18:59 <oklopol> yeah everyone learns to love me with time
00:19:57 <oklopol> hey Mathnerd314, are you a math nerd
00:20:02 <Mathnerd314> elliott: so do you think I'm a noob in general or just in context of okky?
00:20:34 <Mathnerd314> oklopol: I would say so, from a biased perspective
00:21:10 <oklopol> what kind of math nerdity do you do
00:23:27 <nooga> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
00:23:36 <nooga> thin lens approximation in 3d
00:23:55 <nooga> how do i find that goddamn transformation matrix
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00:29:02 <oklopol> tell me something cool about them
00:29:54 <Mathnerd314> rather hard, since we're studying *noncommutative* algebras :p
00:31:03 <oklopol> so what are the operations, do algebras where you just have a commutative operator have some common properties, or are we talking about + and *
00:31:57 <Mathnerd314> commutative algebras seem to consist mostly of rings, ideals, and modules, all of which have both + and *
00:32:49 <oklopol> multiplication operators and addition? does each ideal give you a module like that?
00:33:57 <Mathnerd314> clarification: are we talking about fields of mathematics or specific types of mathematical objects?
00:34:17 <oklopol> i think we're talking about objects
00:35:42 <oklopol> "<Mathnerd314> commutative algebras seem to consist mostly of rings, ideals, and modules, all of which have both + and *" <<< so this was about fields, not objects
00:37:41 <oklopol> tell me something about noncommutative algebras
00:39:20 <oklopol> what i've done with algebra recently was inventing homomorphisms, i came up with this marvellous way to associate semigroups and groups to algebras, and of course it was just a convoluted implementation of homomorphism (semi)groups
00:39:23 <Mathnerd314> I don't know about "sexy"... but all semisimple ones are just matrices
00:40:41 <oklopol> so first of all what do we have, we have a... ring? or do we have an algebra in the sense ring-module-hybrid
00:41:08 <oklopol> i haven't done noncommutative algebra, so i can't really jump into a vague explanation, you'll have to set theory it up
00:42:39 <oklopol> "but all semisimple ones are just matrices" <<< if a ring has the property of semisimplicity, you can implement the ring as a ring of matrices?
00:42:52 <Mathnerd314> "for all modules over this ring, every submodule has a complement so that the module is a direct sum of the submodule and its complement"
00:43:28 <oklopol> there must be a clever pun about how non-simple that definition is
00:44:10 <oklopol> okay that seems natural enough i guess
00:45:46 <oklopol> so was my interpretation up there correct
00:47:24 <Mathnerd314> they might be some weird-looking matrices though
00:47:41 <oklopol> given R, i don't really know at all what modules over it are
00:49:16 <Mathnerd314> a module is something that it makes sense to multiply by an element of the ring
00:49:32 <Mathnerd314> for example, you can multiply vectors by a scalar
00:49:57 <Mathnerd314> so a module is that operation, but without constraints like commutativity etc.
00:50:08 <oklopol> module = abelian group + scalar multiplication by ring elements, with some compatibility axioms, right
00:51:22 <oklopol> i'm completely wrong ain't i
00:52:22 <oklopol> ah just non-commutative ring
00:53:21 <oklopol> i was wondering where non-commutativity can be found if the vectors form an abelian group, but that place is the ring
00:54:27 <oklopol> whose result is that, and from what year, are you a researcher, do you have a degree, do you have publications, and what do you work on
00:57:08 <Mathnerd314> "theorem about semisimple rings", ~20-30 years ago (IIRC), no, no, not much
00:59:38 <oklopol> i can't associate them to the theorems very well, so i tend not to care about them for that reason
01:02:12 <oklopol> i was mainly wondering if that was something you had been working on, you never know
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01:06:36 <elliott> phanty revealed his age, he
01:06:41 <Mathnerd314> oklopol: it's just a math course I'm taking now, mostly for fun
01:10:09 <oklopol> btw you had less answers than i had questions, methinks
01:10:35 <elliott> Mathnerd314 has failed his duty to oklopol.
01:10:40 <elliott> oklopol: oerjan's disappeared :(
01:10:45 <elliott> he hasn't been in here for like 10, 11 days
01:10:55 <elliott> which he's never done before, afaik
01:10:59 <elliott> also he has no life so a holiday is unlikely :)
01:11:25 <elliott> oklopol: so what was this Norwegian guy, name starts with V
01:11:33 <elliott> oklopol: said you were there, norway hostname, lilja came in soon after
01:11:55 <elliott> oklopol: so you were the only one of them who hates us too much to log in :D
01:12:09 <oklopol> well i don't carry my computer around
01:12:50 <elliott> oklopol: so by "here to stay", do you mean you're not going to suddenly not be here for ages, or do you just mean for today
01:14:06 <elliott> oklopol: well if it's the latter, i will make sure finland gets bombed
01:14:54 <elliott> oklopol likes bombs too much
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01:17:54 <Mathnerd314> oklopol: indeed, I've been taking notes than memorizing the material, because I probably won't see anything like it again
01:18:10 <pikhq> God. Rand Paul won his race.
01:18:15 <pikhq> Rand fucking Paul.
01:18:28 <coppro> yes, the USA is retarded
01:18:37 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: is there something wrong with Rand Paul?
01:18:38 <elliott> it should be illegal for rand paul to have such a close name to ron paul
01:18:45 <oklopol> Mathnerd314: nono the personal questions
01:18:47 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: He is fucking crazy.
01:18:48 <coppro> did anyone pass a balanced budget requirement?
01:18:53 <coppro> because if he did, looooooooooool
01:18:53 <pikhq> elliott: You can blame Ron Paul for that.
01:19:06 <oklopol> and you answered one less than i asked, not sure which you omitted
01:19:09 <elliott> his name isn't rand paul it's randal howard paul
01:19:10 <pikhq> elliott: Rand Paul is Ron Paul's son.
01:19:28 <coppro> balanced budgets are totally wrong for governments
01:19:39 <Mathnerd314> oklopol: oh, just make it 3 no's instead of 2
01:19:39 <elliott> pikhq: the fact that rand paul is middle-aged says something about how old ron paul is :)
01:19:53 <pikhq> coppro: Well, there was a ballot question on whether or not to forbid the state from *taking out any loans* here.
01:20:14 <elliott> Please tell me that tapeworm one passed in Washington.
01:20:39 <Mathnerd314> do you ever feel that most of this should be in #esoteric-blah rather than #esoteric ?
01:20:42 <coppro> please tell me it failed
01:20:44 <elliott> i propose that the state is not allowed to spend money
01:20:57 <elliott> Mathnerd314: none of us are hierarchy and organisation-obsessed enough to disrupt the flow like that
01:21:02 <elliott> but yes, most of #esoteric is off-topic.
01:21:25 <pikhq> coppro: It failed hardcore.
01:21:42 <pikhq> coppro: 73% against.
01:21:48 <coppro> your populace has demonstrated basic macroeconomic literacy
01:22:06 <elliott> Mathnerd314: we like talking about random shit
01:22:12 <elliott> say something esolang-related and interesting :)
01:22:14 <pikhq> coppro: There were also questions about reducing/eliminating various taxes.
01:22:56 <coppro> actually, you know what, I'll look myself
01:23:10 <pikhq> coppro: For instance, halving property tax, halving income tax, maxing vehicle taxes to $100 a year, and eliminating property taxes on those who use state-owned land for a private use.
01:23:21 <pikhq> coppro: All of them failed.
01:23:25 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Yeah.
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01:24:39 <coppro> why did Amendment P fail?
01:25:21 <coppro> yes, that's what I'm looking on
01:25:25 <pikhq> coppro: It would cost a small amount of money this year if enacted, I guess?
01:25:29 <elliott> coppro: "Amendment P, which would move regulation of all games of chance into the Department of Revenue, would ultimately have the effect of reducing cost — or should have that effect....However, there’s a $116,000 expected startup cost, which in another year might be fine, but this year is not. Vote against."
01:25:38 <elliott> also the one below which just opposed all constitutional amendments
01:26:15 <pikhq> coppro: Not too upset about it failing, though. Sure, it'd be beneficial, but it's a structural detail that doesn't matter *too* much, y'know?
01:26:20 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Orly? Where are you?
01:26:26 <elliott> At least prop 19 was only beaten by a small margin.
01:26:37 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: colorado springs, next to the interstate
01:26:51 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Which side of town?
01:28:09 <pikhq> I'm kinda amazed anyone was opposed to Amendment Q.
01:28:24 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Mmm...
01:28:43 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: May have to meet up sometime for God-knows-what.
01:29:04 <elliott> pikhq: The Steamboat Today appears to be the only media outlet to disapprove of Amendment Q because of its strange no-constitutional-amendments policy.
01:29:18 <elliott> [[Some of this fall’s ballot measures are more innocent, such as Amendment P and its attempt to transfer oversight of licenses bingo and raffle games to the Department of Revenue, and Amendment Q, which would establish a process for temporarily moving the seat of state government from Denver in the event of a disaster. But we hardly see the need for them. Why spend $116,000 to transfer gaming oversight to a different department when the current s
01:29:19 <elliott> seems to have worked just fine?]]
01:29:29 <pikhq> elliott: Aaand so 42% of people voted against it‽
01:29:31 <elliott> I have no idea who the Steambot Today are.
01:29:37 <pikhq> elliott: Nor do I.
01:30:16 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steamboat_Pilot_%26_Today
01:30:30 <elliott> http://www.steamboatpilot.com/news/2010/oct/20/our-view-vote-no-state-amendments/
01:31:33 * Sgeo hugs version control
01:31:37 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: It would be really easy for me to get whereever you are; I'm currently going to school at PPCC (Centennial campus)
01:31:52 <Sgeo> It was easy to change the VS2010 project back into a VS2008 project
01:32:28 <pikhq> So. Few miles on I25 away.
01:32:42 <coppro> glad to see that Colorado hates prolifers
01:33:01 <pikhq> coppro: Only all that popular in El Paso County.
01:33:09 <pikhq> coppro: The land of fundamentalists and retards.
01:33:20 <pikhq> coppro: Oh, and rural areas, but they can... Kinda be ignored.
01:33:35 <elliott> http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/11/conspiracy-theories.html Someone tried to buy Britain!
01:33:57 <elliott> coppro: I'm prolific; I'm a prolifer, one could say.
01:35:37 <elliott> Its chairman came to me and said, "We have this extraordinary request to assist in a major financial reconstruction. It is megabucks, but we need your help to assist us in understanding whether this business is legitimate".
01:37:41 <pikhq> elliott: I strongly suspect that the Queen in Right of Britain is not for sale.
01:37:52 <elliott> pikhq: Read the quote. It's... interesting.
01:37:59 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: google maps claims it takes 18 minutes to get to PPCC. I guess that's reasonable.
01:38:06 <elliott> pikhq: [[I have had one of the biggest experiences in the laundering of terrorist money and funny money that anyone has had in the City. I have handled billions of pounds of terrorist money.]] [[My biggest terrorist client was the IRA and I am pleased to say that I managed to write off more than £1 billion of its money.]] [[I hasten to add that it is no good getting the police in, because I shall immediately call the Bank of England as my defence
01:38:06 <elliott> ss, given that it put me in to deal with these problems.]]
01:38:15 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Seems 'bout right.
01:38:28 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Might be shorter from here to PPCC, though.
01:38:38 <pikhq> ("here" being Woodmen and 24)
01:38:49 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Erm, from here *than* from PPCC.
01:40:04 <pikhq> elliott: What the hell?
01:40:05 <elliott> pikhq: I like how you're not shocked at all :P
01:40:59 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Mmkay.
01:41:21 <pikhq> elliott: A random shady organization actually tried to *buy the UK*.
01:41:30 * Mathnerd314 should be doing homework instead of mispelling things on IRC
01:41:43 <elliott> pikhq: It appears that this Lord is, ehm, off his rocker.
01:41:55 <elliott> pikhq: It is likely that he laundered money and then promptly displaced his entire collection of marbles.
01:42:03 <elliott> Lord De Mauley [Government Whip]: The noble Lord is into his fifteenth minute. I wonder whether he can draw his remarks to a conclusion.
01:42:09 <elliott> Looks like he's, well, just crazy :P
01:43:33 <elliott> "Reads like the setup for the biggest advance fee fraud in history, doesn't it?"
01:44:56 <elliott> http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/house_of_lords/newsid_9146000/9146065.stm 2h34m in
01:45:35 <elliott> [[b. It may or may not speak to Lord James' sanity that his last noteworthy appearance was during a debate on immigration on 21 October, in which he referred to an obscene song about Hermann Goering trying to have sex with a kangaroo.]]
01:45:57 <elliott> http://www.theyworkforyou.com/lords/?id=2010-10-21a.903.2&s=speaker%3A13880#g923.0
01:48:12 <elliott> pikhq: What's that organisation that OWNS EVERY STOCK EVER?
01:51:10 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Haw haw. No, the actual corporation that owns 99% of all stocks.
01:51:19 <elliott> (Buying a stock without them involves actual physical stock certificates.)
01:51:31 <elliott> (99% of all stocks worldwide, that is)
01:51:48 <Mathnerd314> http://ming.tv/flemming2.php/__show_article/_a000010-000923.htm ?
01:52:39 <elliott> pikhq: Clearly they'er the ones.
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01:54:20 <pikhq> elliott: Depository Trust & Clearing Corporation
01:54:35 <elliott> Wait, 99% of stocks in the US, but most stocks in other countries. Whatever.
01:55:03 <pikhq> They could hypothetically purchase a continent.\
01:55:31 <elliott> [[Instead, what they typically do is to put the stocks into the name of "Cede and Company" or "Cede & Co" or some such variation. And the broker might tell you that it is just a fictitious name, and will explain why it is really more practical to do that than to put it in your name.
01:55:31 <elliott> The problem with that is that it appears that Cede isn't just some dummy name, but an actual corporation that DTCC controls.]]
01:55:39 <elliott> pikhq: Looks like I believe in conspiracy theories now.
01:56:04 <pikhq> elliott: They're not really conspiracy theories if they're very well-known facts.
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01:56:14 <elliott> pikhq: Very well-known, scary, scary facts.
01:56:26 <elliott> pikhq: Also: Very well-known by who?
01:56:33 <pikhq> elliott: Every stock broker.
01:56:44 <elliott> pikhq: Which is... the conspiracy, more or less.
01:56:46 <pikhq> elliott: Congress.
01:56:51 <pikhq> elliott: The few souls who watch CSPAN.
01:56:52 <elliott> pikhq: Conspiracy theories are known inside the conspiracy? Zomg :P
01:57:32 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, okay. The point is, it's not exactly a conspiracy theory if all the reasoning or evidence for it is a matter of public record that anyone could easily find if they cared to.
01:57:38 <pikhq> elliott: It's instead just fucking scary.
01:57:43 <elliott> pikhq: Hid in plain sight...
02:01:54 <Sgeo> Is Cede & Co necessarily a bad thing?
02:03:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: They could crash the world economy in an instant.
02:03:26 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Several ways.
02:03:53 <elliott> Mathnerd314: "Fuck you, we're getting rid of our stocks because we like cocaine and hookers."
02:03:58 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: They could simply fire every single CEO at once, thereby causing crisis.
02:04:26 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: They could dissolve every company.
02:04:41 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: They could assume control of every company.
02:05:23 <coppro> Uh, they are merely a trust.
02:06:26 <elliott> And thus pikhq was assassinated.
02:07:53 <elliott> coppro: IIRC, they're basically not regulated at all, but, uh, pikhq knows more about this than me.
02:08:14 <coppro> elliott: They do not own shares, they keep them in trust
02:08:30 <elliott> coppro: Uhh, they do own the shares, the "shareholder" is just the beneficiary.
02:08:42 <elliott> The stocks are in the name of DTCC.
02:08:55 <coppro> I thought they were just a trust
02:09:00 <elliott> coppro: No -- they own the shares.
02:09:19 <elliott> Because ha ha ha why would it be something REASONABLE like THAT
02:13:42 <coppro> elliott: actually, I'm looking it up now
02:13:45 <coppro> they legally own the shares
02:13:52 <coppro> however, they are not stockholders
02:13:56 <coppro> and thus have no legal power
02:14:09 <elliott> pikhq's looked into this more than i have, i defer to him, but okay.
02:14:27 <coppro> (except for the companies that they are actually invested in, of course)
02:15:21 <pikhq> coppro: Uuuh, how the hell does *that* work? The "stockholders" actually have no rights over those shares at all.
02:15:56 <pikhq> Are things even screwier than I thought?
02:18:05 <coppro> pikhq: because Cede legally owns the shares, but does not have the legal rights of a shareholder
02:18:15 <pikhq> coppro: *How does that work at all*.
02:18:23 <coppro> the system is screwy, but it is better than them just owning everything
02:18:40 <coppro> pikhq: exactly how it sounds
02:19:24 <pikhq> coppro: It sounds like you're proposing a spherical cube.
02:19:48 <coppro> pikhq: it's very simple
02:20:02 <coppro> it's like having land with an easement over the entire property
02:20:54 <pikhq> Fucking hell I hate the legal system.
02:21:10 <pikhq> I keep forgetting that it would allow for spherical cubes.
02:22:03 <pikhq> Okay, so Cede & Co. *could* just go and burn all the stocks thereby causing a global panic. But other than that their ownership is somewhat meaningless.
02:22:06 <elliott> spherical cubes? Like the TIME CUBE
02:22:23 <elliott> hmm yeah, what would happen if they simply burned everything? ignoring the illegality (is it illegal?)
02:22:52 <pikhq> elliott: It may be illegal, but the resulting hard crash of everything would make prosecution very difficult.
02:23:02 <elliott> woot woot i propose we do it
02:23:14 <Mathnerd314> elliott: I'm guessing they'd just print them out again
02:23:31 <Sgeo> I think we're talking abot metaphorical burning
02:23:54 <pikhq> Yes, we're talking Abott metaphorical burning.
02:24:03 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Who, Cede & Co.?
02:24:07 <elliott> Mathnerd314: In this scenario, they have decided that fuck people.
02:24:47 <pikhq> So, this is just another way that everything depends on a single person not going apeshit-crazy.
02:24:58 <Mathnerd314> elliott: I don't *think* the world would end if the stock market crashed.
02:25:06 <pikhq> (another such way is, well. The President of the US could at a moment's notice end life.)
02:25:15 <Mathnerd314> elliott: so it wouldn't end if the stock market disappears either
02:25:34 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Yes, but the economy would crash *hard*.
02:25:34 <elliott> Mathnerd314: remember the great depression?
02:25:39 <elliott> it's sort of like 1,000 times worse than that
02:25:54 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: All the money would be gone.
02:25:56 <elliott> i think if the stock market crashed an awful lot of people would die.
02:25:59 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Yes, all of it.
02:26:02 <elliott> literally, crashed completely
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02:26:18 <Sgeo> Wouldn't single-celled life still live?
02:26:28 <Sgeo> Or at least some of it?
02:26:43 <pikhq> Sgeo: Radiodurans would.
02:26:58 <elliott> Mathnerd314: You have a terribly naïve view of the world :P
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02:27:14 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Okay, so we go back several millenia.
02:27:16 <Sgeo> It can survive vacuu,? o.O
02:27:18 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: That's "wonderful".
02:27:26 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yes, Radiodurans is fucking nuts.
02:27:35 <coppro> The stock market crashing would not end society
02:27:36 <Ilari> Radiodurans? You mean "lots of nukes fly" scenario?
02:27:42 <coppro> it would be Very Very Very Very Bad though
02:27:46 <elliott> Mathnerd314: RAPE AND DESPAIR
02:27:50 <Sgeo> Ilari, radiodurans is a bacterium
02:27:54 <pikhq> Ilari: The entire US stockpile.
02:27:54 <elliott> coppro: it would end *western* society
02:28:00 <elliott> <Sgeo> Ilari, radiodurans is a bacterium
02:28:19 <pikhq> elliott: Bacterium can also refer to a single species of bacteria.
02:28:20 <coppro> elliott: no. we are retarded and would rebuild it worse
02:28:29 <Sgeo> I thought Ilari didn't know what it was and didn't Google
02:28:45 <Ilari> Yeah, I know. And it takes A LOT of radiation to kill it (that's where it got its name).
02:29:11 <Mathnerd314> elliott: suppose everyone suddenly just burned all the money and started doing things out of habit. would life go on as before?
02:29:19 <pikhq> Ilari: Yup. With nukes flying, radiodurans would be just fine.
02:29:37 <Sgeo> How does that evolve?
02:29:39 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: You are ignorant of macroëconomics.
02:30:09 <elliott> Mathnerd314: oh yeah 'cuz everyone would do that.
02:30:20 * elliott suspects Mathnerd314 is the naïve variety of anarchist
02:30:23 <coppro> macroeconomics is scary
02:30:35 <Ilari> Aren't there also some molds that use ionizing radiation as energy source (found inside the infamous Chernobyl 4 reactor)?
02:30:53 <coppro> Mathnerd314: go take an econ course or two
02:31:29 <pikhq> Ilari: They use melanin. :)
02:31:40 <Mathnerd314> elliott: Nation States characterizes me as "Left-Leaning College State" http://www.nationstates.net/nation=asdjeklcdh
02:31:53 <elliott> nationstates has nothing to do with actual political preferences ZOMG
02:32:13 <Mathnerd314> well, I've been doing it according to my naive views
02:32:21 <elliott> NationStates is also naïve :P
02:32:38 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: This is a bit like using a gossip magazine quiz as an indicator.
02:32:38 <elliott> "Following new legislation in FlagAsdjeklcdh, all forms of advertising are banned."
02:32:58 <elliott> [pirate radio station] "THE NEW IPAD FROM APP[FZZZZZZZZZZZZZRKWRKWRKWKTEIOAJDIOJRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR]"
02:33:04 <Sgeo> So I can't bring people to Sine?
02:33:08 <elliott> Following new legislation in FlagAsdjeklcdh, the police have been reduced to using duct tape instead of handcuffs following further cutbacks.
02:33:26 <Mathnerd314> elliott: yes, I never said I made sane decisions :p
02:33:28 <elliott> "Following new legislation in FlagAsdjeklcdh, long arduous trials are held for the most trivial of offences." :D
02:33:47 <Sgeo> I like Active Worlds
02:33:55 * Sgeo promptly gets arrested
02:33:56 <elliott> Sgeo: you and all zero other people
02:34:03 * Sgeo breaks free from his duct tape
02:34:10 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: obviously. I'm trying to show how little I know
02:35:15 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Just FYI: currency actually came into existence soley because barter sucks.
02:35:26 <elliott> [LOGREADING ME] play nationstates since you can't resist, nation is called Battletoadia
02:35:32 <pikhq> (developing from using precious metals for barter in lieu of anything actually useful.)
02:35:39 <pikhq> (because barter sucks.)
02:36:35 <elliott> do the History/Government Style fields change anything?
02:37:18 <Mathnerd314> elliott: wikipedia has a good description of how it works - basically, nothing matters; they're just indicators
02:37:38 <elliott> Mathnerd314: can you change government style?
02:37:40 <elliott> who knows what i'll become
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02:39:35 <elliott> Mathnerd314 was then promptly shot by the CIA
02:39:49 <Mathnerd314> elliott: yeah, you just make decisions every day or so
02:40:09 <elliott> Mathnerd314: yes but the actual Government Style field
02:40:12 <elliott> i have played before, just don't recall it
02:40:21 <elliott> Sensible / Liberal / Conservative / etc.
02:41:08 <Mathnerd314> elliott: read wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Government:_NationStates
02:42:28 <elliott> Mathnerd314: does not answer my question :P
02:42:34 <elliott> i know what the government description things are
02:42:40 <elliott> i'm talking about the actual text box
02:42:53 <Sgeo> Does war exist now?
02:43:15 <Sgeo> So where's the fun
02:43:18 <Sgeo> 5 questions a da
02:43:36 <elliott> Sgeo has huge psychological issues with answering
02:43:54 <Sgeo> No, I mean... that's it, from what I recall
02:44:07 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: I recall using the wirr instead of a currency
02:44:36 <Sgeo> Name the currency, name the nation, choose a location
02:44:41 <Sgeo> Answer 5 questions a day
02:44:44 <Sgeo> And.. that's it
02:44:47 <Sgeo> That's the whole thing
02:44:53 <Sgeo> Unless more was added/
02:45:23 <Sgeo> http://www.nationstates.net/nation=sgeo
02:45:31 <Sgeo> This was .... from many, many, years ago
02:46:37 <elliott> [[I bring regards from Region Inc I'd like to ask for you to join our region where YOU have a chance to take part in the government and more.]]
02:46:52 <Sgeo> "A loose coalition of sartorially-challenged individuals known as "Let It All Hang Out" has called on the government to relax public nudity laws.
02:47:41 <elliott> http://www.nationstates.net/nation=battletoadia
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02:48:28 <Sgeo> Why did I make it illegal to make racist remarks? What did I do to freedom of speech o.O?
02:49:07 <pikhq> Sgeo: You raped it, much like Glenn Beck.
02:49:32 <Sgeo> That's when I signed this nation up
02:49:58 * Sgeo decides not to tamper with it
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02:58:28 <Mathnerd314> something to do with "individual mutualism"
03:02:22 <pikhq> "Judicial activism". Stupidest god damned term ever.
03:03:14 <pikhq> The US is common law, people. Judges have the power and the obligation to make law. Deal with it.
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03:26:47 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: how did it get so quiet after elliott left?
03:30:27 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: c'mon, we're in the same timezone. you can't be asleep *this* early
03:30:30 <Gregor> I think that question answered itself.
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03:35:25 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: I'm procrastinating on homework ATM.
03:35:25 <pikhq> Quite skillfully, for that matter.
03:36:10 <Mathnerd314> really? that's what I'm doing too! (less adeptly of course)
03:40:41 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: when is your homework due? mine is due tomorrow.
03:44:45 <pikhq> I will probably go into automatic-integration-mode in a few minutes.
03:50:13 <Mathnerd314> why is their course listing an 8 MB pdf with hundreds of crappy pictures...?
03:50:24 <pikhq> Because the smart people leave after two years.
03:50:35 <pikhq> As do the dumb people.
03:50:41 <pikhq> Leaving them with complete and utter morons.
03:54:01 <pikhq> Yeah, but I'm a cheap bastard.
03:56:06 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: but ppcc doesn't offer the course I'm taking now, namely Modern Analysis
03:56:53 <Mathnerd314> but I guess I get shielded from price differences because D20 is kind enough to pay my tuition
03:58:38 <coppro> all I know of is the PPCA
03:58:58 <coppro> also, "Modern" analysis?
03:58:58 <pikhq> coppro: (public school) District 20; University of Colorado, Colorado Springs; and Pikes Peak Community College.
03:59:31 <Mathnerd314> coppro: pikhq and I happen to live within ~25 miles of each other
03:59:42 <coppro> how much is that in km?
04:00:44 <coppro> and you're in math? :P
04:00:48 <pikhq> coppro: I use the approximation of 2km/mile for ballpark figures like that.
04:01:07 <coppro> Mathnerd314: because I want to see if you know
04:01:29 <pikhq> coppro: I know that it's actually 1.609344 kilometers per mile precisely, but it doesn't fucking matter for ballpark estimates like that.
04:01:35 <coppro> also, I don't do calc 3 for a year
04:01:38 <Gregor> http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/
04:01:39 <Mathnerd314> coppro: google gives miles, so that's what I gave. tell me when the US has a bill to switch to metric.
04:01:58 <coppro> Mathnerd314: it'll probably be a referendum
04:02:03 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: I don't have a time machine to go back and tell you before your birth.
04:02:30 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: that has a decent chance of getting passed
04:04:04 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Mendenhall Order. 1893. Metric has been official ever since.
04:05:00 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Also, Metric Conversion Act of 1975.
04:05:34 <Sasha> http://bash.org/?926627
04:09:24 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: ok, something that mandates use of the metric system
04:10:33 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Until '98, a switch to metric for roads was planned to happen in 2000.
04:11:07 <pikhq> The problem is we *keep fucking stopping it*.
04:11:59 <pikhq> Fortunately, industry has started to beg for metrication.
04:12:13 <pikhq> Which might make it actually happen.
04:13:02 <Mathnerd314> like I said, tell me when I get to vote / sign the petition / etc.
04:14:37 <pikhq> Also, the military is exclusively metric.
04:18:39 <Mathnerd314> Wikipedia says *illegal drugs* are measured in metric
04:18:52 <Mathnerd314> I'll bet Hitler used the metric system too!
04:22:02 <pikhq> Germany went metric in 1872.
04:23:53 <Sgeo> Dear 1010 Wins: Please don't link to cybersquatted domains
04:24:56 <Sgeo> I didn't mean an actual link
04:25:04 <Sgeo> They mentioned something in a story
04:25:11 <Sgeo> http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/11/03/geo-tagging-the-dangers-of-posting-pictures-online/
04:25:20 <Sgeo> "The message was from Larry Pesce, the founder of icanstalkyou.com but its not what you think."
04:25:29 <Sgeo> Guess what? icanstalkyou.com is cybersquatted
04:31:54 <pikhq> Well fuck. I can't find my textbook.
04:33:09 <coppro> the monster group scares me
04:33:16 <Sgeo> monster group?
04:33:22 <Sgeo> Are we bringing that rule back/
04:33:53 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: typosquatting, really, since http://icanstalku.com/ is real
04:47:15 <coppro> Sgeo: no, the monster group
04:47:16 <Ilari> Hah... If server certificate exceeds about 4kB, it'll overflow TCP window, leading to performance problems....
04:58:17 <Mathnerd314> interesting question: has the president ever been ill?
04:58:56 <coppro> one of your presidents died from health problems
04:59:30 <Mathnerd314> well, Obama might have been a germophobe and never gotten sick
05:00:55 <Mathnerd314> see, the question was even in the news: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/27/AR2009042703597.html
05:01:52 <Mathnerd314> coppro: can't you see that I was asking about Obama?
05:18:24 <Sgeo> Nomics can have civil wars?
05:18:33 <Sgeo> I've fantasized about Agora havng a civil war
05:19:18 <Sgeo> Ok, that page is confusing
05:24:14 <Sgeo> WTF is Nano programming language
05:26:09 <Sgeo> It's supposedly inspired by Vala and Scala
05:26:57 <Gregor> Then it should be named Nala.
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07:08:10 <Vorpal> ... what a strange greeting
07:08:59 <Vorpal> alas, I have to leave for university now
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14:02:32 <Vorpal> hm would a bignum brainfuck without - be TC?
14:04:02 <ais523> or effectively, a 1-bit BF with "set bit" but no "clear bit"?
14:04:05 <ais523> I think quite possibly
14:05:11 <Vorpal> ais523, hm, are you sure that is equivalent?
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14:11:11 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't see any easy way to show that answering one of those questions would answer the other. For a start, with an infinite tape of bignums you would have a larger state than with an infinite tape of single bits, unless I completely mixed up something.
14:12:22 <Vorpal> the states for the bignum case would be uncountable, while for the bit case they would be countable, no?
14:52:06 <ais523> Vorpal: given that [] is the only command that cares about the value of a number, no values above 1 could be distinguished
14:52:23 <ais523> meanwhile, something to ponder: is there a number exactly equal to the number of Google results for that number?
14:55:20 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:/share/cog/corpora/google_ngram/dvd1/data/1gms$ zcat vocab.gz | egrep '^([0-9][0-9]*) \1$'
14:56:04 <fizzie> Okay, so that's not exactly "google results", but in their "one trillion words from the internet" database, the number 15491 occurs 15491 times (or in 15491 documents, I forget the exact definition).
14:57:08 <fizzie> Actual google results for 15491 are 2,300,000, though; the google 1T ngram corpus is a very small part of the internet indeed.
14:57:47 <fizzie> (It is the only number there that matches.)
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15:02:06 <fizzie> Well now, that's rude!
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15:21:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, presumably his connection broke?
15:22:10 <Vorpal> unless it was a joke about a remote host being rude
15:22:19 <fizzie> Nah, it must be some form of conscientious discrimination. I'll sue.
15:22:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, he lives in UK not US
15:23:41 <fizzie> Oh, right. Then I won't sue. What's the UK equivalent? Maim?
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15:25:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, know any really good init system? upstart has a nice syntax for config files and does the right thing when it comes to supervising. But due to being event based rather than dependency based it tends to start more than it should. Just because foo is up doesn't mean everything depending on foo should start.
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15:26:13 <fizzie> Not really, no; I haven't even compared the well-known ones.
15:26:16 <Vorpal> systemd seems to get the dependency stuff right, and possibly also supervising. But config files are based on .ini like syntax... Which is quite nasty for this purpose..
15:27:14 <fizzie> Found any with XML configs yet?-)
15:27:18 <Vorpal> systemd also does deps inetd style when possible, creating sockets first and making things trying to connect to them trigger starting that thing (or block until it is up if it is already starting)
15:27:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, it seems solaris uses that
15:27:43 <fizzie> Heh, wouldn't be too surprised. It's an Enterprise System, after all.
15:27:52 <Vorpal> but I'm looking for one that would work on linux and even a quick glance at it indicates it is very specific to solaris
15:28:01 <Vorpal> also license is... the usual weird one
15:28:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh and systemd seems to have it's roots in the fedora/freedesktop.org caps. Which explains the config syntax at least...
15:29:21 <fizzie> I guess OS X's launchd has configuration that is apple-property-list and therefore indirectly XML-based, sort-of.
15:29:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm idea: use make -C /etc/init -j boot or such
15:30:06 <fizzie> I have a vague notion I've heard of a make-based init system, but maybe that was a dream or something.
15:30:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, launchd does a lot of the actual dependency stuff and so on the right way.
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15:31:08 <fizzie> "The Ubuntu Linux distribution considered using launchd in 2006. However, launchd was rejected as an option because it was released under the Apple Public Source License – which at the time was described as an "inescapable licence problem".[4]"
15:31:16 <fizzie> Oh, so they've even considered that. One wonders how seriously.
15:31:18 <Vorpal> the main issue with a make based one seems to be that you have to ensure that starting a daemon actually creates a file and that if a daemon dies the file actually gets removed. Even if it dies due to crashing or such
15:31:35 <Vorpal> also lack of supervisor
15:31:48 <Vorpal> which would make it as bad as sysvinit
15:32:49 <Vorpal> upstart syntax + systemd features seems like the perfect dream
15:32:52 <fizzie> "-- minimyth [a MythTV-centred distribution] is now defaulting to using a make based init system rather than an sh based init system --"
15:33:12 <Vorpal> I somehow read that as "MythBusters-centered"
15:33:27 <fizzie> So... explodes every week?
15:34:05 <Vorpal> anyway, neither sh-based one nor make-based one provides the critical supervising feature
15:37:01 <fizzie> It's not exactly necessarily for service-supervision to be wed with init, but as you wish.
15:37:32 <Vorpal> systemd seems to move a lot of stuff from shell scripts into C and then into systemd itself directly
15:37:35 <Vorpal> that sounds problematic
15:38:12 <Vorpal> I'm not sure what sort of stuff yet. But it could very well be stuff that only fits well into a redhatish distro.
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15:43:21 <Vorpal> also means recompiling init just to change that stuff
15:54:48 <cheater99> fizzie: make based init system? wtf?
15:56:04 <fizzie> Well, you know, make can run programs and all. Anyway, that was just from a forum posting. Based on the rest, I'd have to say "not very well" about how it works.
15:56:41 <cheater99> how about "wrong tool for the job" lol
15:57:37 <fizzie> It does sort-of handle dependencies for you.
15:57:45 <fizzie> Perhaps not a very good fit, still.
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16:12:06 <Vorpal> hm, binaries produced by ghc tends to be large.... Otherwise haskell would be a nice language to write an init system in
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17:27:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Somebody please tell me Debian's netinstall thing supports WPA networks.
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17:47:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Don't you know your own mind best?
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17:47:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, while I do know a bit more than I want to about networks, I don't know about debian netinstall
17:48:05 * Gregor 's never used netinst for wireless, not to mention WPA :P
17:48:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, check if it has wpa_supplicant?
17:48:32 <Vorpal> and yeah for installs I just plug in the ethernet cable
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18:05:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you mean the comic?
18:06:48 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.theweinerworks.com/?p=86 has an account of it.
18:07:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, err, just reading a few lines in. They got hacked and *didn't* do a complete reinstall?
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18:09:15 <Vorpal> well as that blog post shows, it was stupid
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18:28:18 <Vorpal> elliott, have you ever used an xor linked list?
18:29:08 <elliott> you have asked me that before
18:29:40 <Vorpal> elliott, unless it was several years ago, in which case: "do you expect me to remember that?"
18:29:48 <elliott> it was a year ago at the most
18:30:48 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I'm trying to figure out if they have completely died out in modern times.
18:31:03 <Vorpal> thus my next question is: have you ever seen an xor linked list used?
18:31:16 <oklopol> xor linked list = linked list where every adjacent pair of nodes has a link in one direction, but not the other
18:31:23 <oklopol> if you're lucky, it can be pretty useful
18:31:37 <elliott> more complex code, memory is cheap, takes more cpu time, doesn't work with GC, doesn't work with debuggers
18:32:09 <Vorpal> elliott, what about the xor swap trick? Used/seen it?
18:32:13 <oklopol> no change in algorithmic complexity
18:32:13 <Vorpal> I would expect "no" here too
18:32:29 <elliott> Vorpal: seen it, probably; used it, no
18:32:40 <elliott> i like languages that let me say "a, b = b,a " :P
18:32:42 <Vorpal> oklopol, seen used in a context that wasn't about demonstrating the method I meant
18:33:46 <Vorpal> elliott, python does, doesn't it?
18:33:57 <elliott> yes. i dislike python for different reasons entirely :)
18:34:08 <Vorpal> hm do you need a tuple to do it in python or?
18:34:25 <oklopol> the a, b on the left isn't a tuple, it's syntax
18:34:36 <elliott> but the b, a on the right is a tuple
18:34:41 <oklopol> there's no pattern matching or anything
18:35:01 <elliott> you can figure out the rest
18:35:25 <oklopol> a, (b, c) = 5, get_my_pair()
18:35:38 <Vorpal> that syntax on the lhs side always makes me think of erlang and haskell. Because it reminds me of pattern matching.
18:36:08 <Vorpal> and then I wonder why I'm using python instead of one of them
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18:43:08 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, know any good /sbin/init implementation? upstart is good except for it's event based nature. systemd gets most stuff except the config file syntax right, though it is very geared towards fedora-like distros.
18:43:35 <elliott> or http://code.dogmap.org/svscan-1/
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18:44:06 <Vorpal> elliott, does it do the "create sockets, start stuff on demand when they try to connect" kind of thing that systemd does?
18:44:11 <elliott> or http://www.fefe.de/minit/ if you don't mind fefe software :P
18:44:18 <elliott> Vorpal: uhh, that's what inetd is for.
18:44:35 <Vorpal> elliott, um. Not exactly. Not when used the rather cleaver way when systemd does
18:44:55 <Vorpal> elliott, this page explains it better than I could: http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd.html
18:45:13 <elliott> Vorpal: 0pointer.de/blog = the PulseAudio developer
18:45:15 <Vorpal> elliott, it is a bit long, but very interesting and might be useful to you in your plans for new OS/distro
18:45:39 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I know, but it doesn't seem to idiotic in this case
18:45:48 <elliott> k i'll turn on my moron filter
18:46:06 <elliott> Vorpal: let me guess first -- is it so that if you, like, run startx
18:46:09 <elliott> and it looks for the x socket
18:46:28 <Vorpal> elliott, could be, but not primary that.
18:47:09 <elliott> "Most current systems that try to parallelize boot-up still synchronize the start-up of the various daemons involved: since Avahi needs D-Bus, D-Bus is started first, and only when D-Bus signals that it is ready, Avahi is started too."
18:47:14 <elliott> this... scares me slightly, that this is a "bad thing"
18:47:22 <elliott> let's subvert dependencies for slightly fasterness!
18:47:43 <Vorpal> elliott, it lets you do stuff like start dbus at the same time as things that depend on dbus. And things that depend on dbus are not likely to be the very first thing they open. They probably read configs first and so on
18:47:51 <Vorpal> which means you wait pointlessly
18:48:13 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but if it isn't then no harm done, the reading on the socket would just block
18:48:34 <Vorpal> elliott, like when inetd is still starting the service, the thing blocks for a short time
18:48:52 <Vorpal> elliott, systemd fails however because 1) idiotic config syntax (it is based on the .desktop file syntax...), 2) too geared towards fedora
18:49:20 <elliott> systemd is in opensuse now. so there's that
18:49:41 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, i don't know -- systemd sounds like a rather large program.
18:49:44 <Vorpal> well okay, still it would be a hard fit out of box on debian for exampel I think
18:49:44 <Gregor> SO different from Fedora :P
18:49:55 <elliott> and while concurrent startup is good and starting up stuff you don't need is bad
18:50:03 <Vorpal> elliott, the idea about sockets used that way seems to be from launchd btw. And os x starts fearsomely fast.
18:50:07 <elliott> when it gets too fancy you're just insanely microöptimising
18:50:13 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, and that is one of the issues with upstart
18:50:24 <elliott> i wonder if the systemd authors ever thought "You know what, Avahi takes *too long* to start up. I have to start up *DBUS*!! I must rewrite init to make it faster."
18:50:24 <Vorpal> and yes, systemd is overengineered
18:50:36 <elliott> Vorpal: OS X's startup times are greatly underexaggerated :-)
18:50:46 <elliott> a typical OS X desktop system takes like 20, 30s to start up fully
18:50:59 <Vorpal> elliott, to some extent. But you can interact with it before that in my experience
18:51:12 <Vorpal> sure, spotlight would be a bit slow and so on
18:51:13 <elliott> most of that time is spent in the apple-logo-and-spinner in my experience
18:51:18 <elliott> it wasn't the fastest machine, but whatever :)
18:51:31 <elliott> (2.1 ghz first-generation core 2 duo, either 1 or 2 gigs of ram depending on when i measured it)
18:51:34 <Vorpal> elliott, right, My experience is that the time is spent after login in the bg
18:52:21 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, upstart does have that issue pointed out in the linked to page above
18:52:57 <elliott> which issue? i'm trying to read it but it's bloody long and it could be a lot shorter
18:53:16 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't you just get home from school?
18:53:45 <Vorpal> elliott, see the section "On Upstart"
18:53:51 <elliott> my sleep schedule is beyond the ken of mere mortals
18:54:14 <Vorpal> elliott, so... what do the teachers in school think about you then?
18:54:35 <elliott> does anyone in the universe even think? is THINKING real?
18:54:45 <elliott> just waking up is worse than sleep deprivation
18:55:25 <Vorpal> elliott, easy to a morning person! I wish I was one...
18:55:57 <elliott> "Or in other words, instead of having a clear goal and only doing the things it really needs to do to reach the goal, it does one step, and then after finishing it, it does all steps that possibly could follow it." this either makes no sense, or upstart is crazy
18:57:19 <Vorpal> elliott, I looked at upstart and ubuntu take great care to avoid doing just that. Upstart files would certainly be shorter expressed with a dependency system instead of an event one.
18:57:52 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, apart from that upstart is very nice however
18:58:01 <Vorpal> but it is, to my eyes, a major flaw
18:58:31 <elliott> Vorpal: it appears that my opinions on init systems are in a bit of flux right now
18:58:53 <elliott> Vorpal: my package management opinions appear to have decided on "slackware's is *almost* complex enough" after i realised how hard writing a mega package manager would be
18:59:26 <Vorpal> elliott, a better idea that would keep the simplicity in upstart /sbin/init might be to have dependency syntax in the files and then have a separate program that generated the events from that. You could take advantage of that "caching" by putting it in one file (fewer disk access, and since the files are small, fewer read blocks) as well.
18:59:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I like the nix package manager btw
18:59:59 <elliott> so do i, so do i, but have you seen the /nix directory? i mean wow complexity man.
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19:00:12 <Vorpal> elliott, no I haven't, what is it for?
19:00:23 <elliott> /nix/store/packagename-LONGHASH/ is their root
19:00:29 <elliott> and there's like 500 of them
19:00:33 <elliott> and so many symlinks from the normal tree to them
19:00:37 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and make -C /etc/init -j boot would seem perfect except that it doesn't provide the crucial supervising bit. And that still doesn't do the socket-masquerading and so on...
19:01:06 <Vorpal> you would have shutdown as another target
19:01:09 <elliott> Vorpal: since when does -j not require an argument? :)
19:01:41 <Vorpal> elliott, since the day they made -j without argument mean "no limit"
19:01:52 <Vorpal> elliott, which was before I started using make
19:01:58 <elliott> Vorpal: i am not sure that is a good idea
19:02:02 <elliott> you don't have infinite cores: )
19:02:03 <Gregor> It's a great way to make your computer shit itself.
19:02:09 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and you need to somehow delete target files if a daemon dies unexpectedly
19:02:18 <elliott> Vorpal: just make every target phony?
19:02:54 <Vorpal> elliott, seems a bit messy, would mean you have to have logic to avoid dual starting in some other way
19:03:12 <Vorpal> which would defeat much of the point and also make the dependency stuff not actually work as expected
19:03:25 <elliott> debian tells me that it's using "makefile-style [concurrent? i forget] init" every time i start it up :)
19:03:51 <Vorpal> elliott, wrt -j: booting is not a CPU bound task most of the time, IO bound is quite common
19:04:06 <Vorpal> and sometimes waiting for, say, a reply from a dhcp server
19:04:28 <Vorpal> elliott, with two such tasks and -j2 you would stall stuff for no good reason
19:04:47 <elliott> i remember when /sbin/init was a shell script mumble fnumble
19:05:19 <Vorpal> elliott, and actually -j <more than cores> doesn't hurt a lot. Context switches aren't that important to performance. But with building software you would end up exhausting memory on most systems.
19:05:26 <Vorpal> which would not be likely at boot
19:05:31 <elliott> -j <cores> is optimal with bfs :P
19:05:56 <elliott> so gnash is now playing youtube vidyos!!
19:05:58 <Vorpal> elliott, only for building software or other CPU bound tasks.
19:06:26 <Vorpal> elliott, and -j <cores+1> would be a tiny bit slower with CPU bound but not significantly so
19:06:55 <elliott> "Mr. McCane, you are... a douchebag. That's right, a *douchebag*." -- Hikaru Sulu
19:07:57 <Vorpal> elliott, defining characteristics for compiling that are not defining for booting: CPU bound *and* memory intensive. Very little IO bound usually.
19:08:04 <Vorpal> linking can be IO bound sometimes
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19:08:41 <Vorpal> elliott, that quote: what?
19:08:52 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UACK93xF-FE
19:09:03 <elliott> in which george takei is badass
19:11:11 <elliott> http://github.com/git/git git git git git git git git
19:12:05 <Vorpal> elliott, that movie, is it just me or is it mono on one ear?
19:12:20 <elliott> can't tell, laptop speakers, but it does seem so
19:12:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I use headphones and it makes it quite hard to hear when you only hear it on one ear
19:12:57 <elliott> Use mplayer or something to duplicate the channel :P
19:14:03 <elliott> HAY GUYS I FOUND A TUTORIAL ON HASKELL ZIPPERS
19:14:06 <elliott> http://learnyouahaskell.com/zippers
19:14:41 <Gregor> Now if only we all weren't fighting so hard to assure Sgeo's unhappiness.
19:14:50 <Vorpal> elliott, hm sadly this does not exist: https://github.com/git/git/git (also wtf at that 404 image)
19:15:10 <Vorpal> (looks like a cross between an octopus and hello kitty)
19:15:13 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hm3E2cGQE4
19:15:19 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, I did indeed say wtf about it
19:16:14 <elliott> Gregor: We make sure to kill Sgeo every day
19:16:32 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Now if only we all weren't fighting so hard to assure Sgeo's unhappiness. <-- what?
19:17:04 <Gregor> elliott: Oh shoot, now Vorpal's found out people are working to assure others' unhappiness, and soon enough he'll realize we're working to ensure his unhappiness too.
19:17:19 <Gregor> I MEAN, UH, NOTHING, HI!
19:17:49 <Vorpal> Gregor, yes I know you are all douchbags.
19:18:08 <Vorpal> but of course, it doesn't work.
19:18:24 <elliott> I've never put a douch in a bag.
19:18:31 <Vorpal> elliott, oh good point.
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19:19:01 <Vorpal> elliott, how is that a whoooosh?
19:19:10 <Gregor> How many of your anecdotes start with "So I was eating this baby when ..."
19:19:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Try goggling "douch".
19:19:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I know perfectly well it is probably a sexual joke
19:19:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Font preferences, set hinting to Slight.
19:19:42 <Gregor> Oh god more fontophiles nooooooooooooooo
19:19:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Avoid subpixel rendering; without Ubuntu's patches, it has obvious colour fringing.
19:19:56 <elliott> Gregor: Jesus christ it lasted four lines.
19:19:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I did notice my typo yes when you replied and decided to play along
19:20:11 <Gregor> elliott: You think I'm the messiah???
19:20:11 <elliott> Gregor: Even *Vorpal* has an opinion on what text hinting he likes, STFU
19:20:22 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott: why, is nice subpixel rendering a dark secret known only to Canonical.
19:20:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, it's just that Debian are overly-cautious and Canonical don't care about US patents.
19:20:41 <elliott> They're expired now but whatever.
19:21:02 <elliott> Non-subpixel slight hinting looks fine, anyway, just takes a minute or two to adjust to.
19:21:28 * Phantom_Hoover has a slow, horrible realisation that he has no idea where the font preferences are.
19:21:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: System -> Preferences -> Appearance -> Fonts -> Details...
19:23:26 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, the subpixel rendering looks fine for me, but I'm probably just blind.
19:25:26 <Vorpal> elliott, btw, at least on ubuntu firefox ignores that. You need to use ~/.fonts.conf for it
19:26:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Trust me, it can be very obvious when it wants to be :P
19:26:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Other things: what do I add to sudoers to let me use sudo?
19:26:40 <Vorpal> elliott, it still does on lucid iirc but now the defaults are what you want.
19:26:43 <Vorpal> so you don't notice it
19:26:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You don't.
19:27:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: System -> Administration -> Users and Groups -> Manage Groups
19:27:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: After that, I can tell you how to get the graphical tools using sudo as well and disable the root account password like Ubuntu; it's non-trivial.
19:28:13 <elliott> gconftool --type bool --set /apps/gksu/sudo-mode true
19:28:24 <elliott> cp /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d/50-localauthority.conf /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d/90-customauthority.conf
19:28:35 <elliott> Edit /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d/90-customauthority.conf and s/unix-user:0/unix-group:sudo/.
19:29:01 <elliott> Note: You need to log out and in again after adding yourself to the sudo group.
19:30:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uhh, please quote them.
19:30:37 <elliott> It's unclear waht constitutes a command there :P
19:31:17 <Phantom_Hoover> The cp /etc/polkit... and, (OK, it's not a command), to edit /etc/polkit...
19:31:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That configures PolicyKit, which is like graphical sudo but ~capabilities~ and stuff.
19:32:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You know how in Ubuntu when you used Software Centre it prompted for your password, but not with the usual dim-screen-and-ask-for-password box?
19:32:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's PolicyKit. In Debian it would ask for root's password instead. My change fixes that.
19:33:55 <elliott> this could be a bit simpler to set up but it isn't :)
19:34:01 <elliott> Everything else is smooth.
19:34:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: By the way, my recommended mirror is the Swedish kernel.org mirror.
19:34:29 <Vorpal> elliott, policykit seems horribly overengineered
19:34:41 <elliott> Vorpal: it is, but you also don't have a choice :)
19:34:57 <Vorpal> elliott, actually, why do I need it?
19:35:01 <elliott> Vorpal: It's yet another one of the SELinux/AppArmour sillinesses, wherein people try and make Unix a modern OS and fail horribly.
19:35:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Because shit uses it :P
19:35:21 <Vorpal> elliott, it seems installed on arch too. And that doesn't use selinux or apparmour
19:35:32 <elliott> You installed Gnome or something.
19:35:37 <Vorpal> elliott, I do use gnome yes
19:35:38 <elliott> GNOME depends on PolicyKit I think.
19:35:42 <Vorpal> but not gdm or such hm
19:35:53 <elliott> System -> Administration -> Users and Groups -> try and change something.
19:35:59 <elliott> It'll probably pop up a PolicyKit authorisation window.
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19:36:16 <elliott> Account type's Change... button is a sure-fire authentication dialogue.
19:36:54 <Vorpal> elliott, actually nothing at all happens there
19:37:05 <Vorpal> I don't think policykit is actually configured and running
19:37:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, it's Arch. You don't expect them to test how dependencies fit together, do you?
19:37:13 <elliott> Vorpal: policykit is not a daemon
19:37:28 <elliott> I feel like such a freetard. Every program on my system is totally Free! I can't install non-Free software without enabling a clearly-labelled repository! I even have freaking Gnash installed!
19:37:36 <Vorpal> elliott, it could matter that I don't use gdm or such, I use startx
19:38:12 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I know that usb devices won't automount by default on here unless I use gdm
19:38:37 <elliott> I blame international jewry.
19:38:44 <elliott> BUT THEN THEY'RE THE SOURCE OF ALL THE WORLD'S PROBLEMS
19:39:03 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, clarification: I blame consolekit because I'm 99% sure it is the cause :P
19:39:32 <elliott> You're not Jewish are you? *suspiciou
19:39:59 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_International_Jew lol henry ford
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19:44:25 <elliott> Vorpal: GNOME Shell, no thanks. The question is, is the GNOME Panel still going to be maintained?
19:44:48 <Vorpal> elliott, hm how does gnome 3 look?
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19:45:00 <Vorpal> elliott, and gnome shell? is that the terminal?
19:45:04 <elliott> Vorpal: Just like GNOME 2 except... http://linux.softpedia.com/screenshots/GNOME-Shell_3.png
19:45:12 <elliott> Vorpal: That's what happens when you put your mouse in the top-left hand corner.
19:45:19 <elliott> Vorpal: The panel, ordinarily, looks just like the bit above.
19:45:29 <elliott> That replaces all the menus, etc.
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19:45:40 <Vorpal> elliott, when will this be released?
19:45:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm going to have to switch to xfce
19:45:53 <Vorpal> and who knows for how long that will last
19:45:55 <elliott> Vorpal: No, gnome-panel will still be available.
19:46:02 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm 99.99999% sure of that.
19:46:14 <Vorpal> elliott, is it possible to make it look exactly like gnome 2 with clearlooks?
19:46:17 <elliott> Vorpal: The question is in the next few releases, if they try and stop maintaining it...
19:46:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Uhh, that *is* exactly GNOME 2 except with gnome-shell instead of gnome-panel.
19:46:42 <elliott> Vorpal: http://vimeo.com/13797705 Here's GNOME Shell "in action".
19:46:49 <elliott> (No flash yada yada not my problem blada blada)
19:47:02 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GrUtIEK1sk youtube version
19:47:23 <elliott> (Well, it's actually a mockup. But whatever.)
19:47:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, and Ubuntu isn't going to use it.
19:48:04 <elliott> Vorpal: They're going to make their netbook interface Unity work on desktops too and use thati nstead.
19:48:51 <Vorpal> elliott, with an option to not use it?
19:48:59 <elliott> Vorpal: And use what instead?
19:49:11 <Vorpal> elliott, when is this going to happen?
19:49:25 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal: And use what instead?
19:49:30 <elliott> Vorpal: When is what going to happen?
19:49:38 <Vorpal> elliott, well, something that works like gnome 2
19:49:48 <Vorpal> elliott, when are they going to switch to that "unity" interface
19:49:51 <elliott> All your sentences are ambiguous.
19:49:57 <elliott> "with an option to not use it" -- talking about what
19:50:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Uh, when GNOME Shell comes out. Because they don't like it.
19:50:14 <Vorpal> elliott, option not to use it = not use the netbook interface, I mean traditional gnome
19:50:19 <Vorpal> with the traditional panel
19:50:34 <elliott> http://www.canonical.com/files/masthead/ubuntu-light/light.jpg this is what it looks like
19:51:00 <elliott> Vorpal: It's actually funny how your only arguments about a terrible interface (GNOME Shell) are based on your terrible neural inability to handle the change of even a single pixel.
19:51:27 <Vorpal> elliott, actually I do think xfce looks nice and that doesn't look exactly like gnome
19:51:31 <elliott> By funny I mean that I was previously unaware that someone who thinks the right thing could somehow be more wrong than someone who thinks the wrong thing.
19:51:38 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, is it possible to make it look exactly like gnome 2 with clearlooks?
19:52:13 <Vorpal> elliott, exactly was there used in an inexact way
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19:53:09 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, is xfce likely to stay the same for the foreseeable future or?
19:53:23 <elliott> No, Xfce are merging with GNOME.
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19:54:03 <Vorpal> elliott, [citation needed]
19:54:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:54:49 <olsner> I'm not joking, I'm lying!
19:55:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You just don't have the fonts.
19:55:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: install ttf-takao
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19:56:17 <elliott> Vorpal is just being whiny and I'm trying to irritate him.
19:56:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, you *do* realise Xfce changes panel design all the time?
19:56:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Xfce 4.2: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Xfce-4.2.2.png
19:56:49 <Vorpal> elliott, you were whiny about the new gnome-panel replacement too!
19:56:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Xfce 4.6: http://iamrajendra.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/xfce46.png
19:57:01 <elliott> I wasn't whiny, I hate it because it sucks, you were just whining about everything that changed.
19:57:06 <elliott> Anyway, see above two images.
19:57:20 <Vorpal> elliott, so everything that changed sucked!
19:57:31 <elliott> Anyway, see above two images.
19:57:34 <Vorpal> elliott, and yeah, I would dislike that
19:58:12 * elliott makes mental note: if gnome stops maintaining the panel and I take up maintaining it, don't tell Vorpal
19:59:08 <Vorpal> elliott, would fit your usual style
20:00:06 <elliott> I'm more likely just to use the last gnome-panel release and keep updating the rest of GNOME if that happens.
20:00:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes indeed these days
20:00:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it used to be good
20:01:30 <Vorpal> elliott, hm twm stayed the same forever. Time to learn to love twm
20:02:21 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, KDE 4 is a shitty UI.
20:02:36 <pikhq_> elliott: That looks more like a change in the defaults more than anything.
20:03:22 <elliott> And so is using gnome-shell instead of gnome-panel.
20:05:21 <Vorpal> elliott, but it is FOSS!
20:05:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I didn't deny that
20:05:45 <elliott> It does YouTube! Well, the audio doesn't lag if you're on a different tab, so there's that.
20:06:16 <Vorpal> elliott, slow computer?
20:06:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, it's not hot on the CPU, but Adobe Flash works just fine.
20:07:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Video/audio freeze for a split second every few seconds.
20:07:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Although the first video I tried has very quiet audio.
20:10:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Check system volume? WFM
20:10:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: $ alsamixer
20:11:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: $ alsamixer
20:11:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, all of the controls in alsamixer are maxed?
20:15:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, laptop?
20:16:30 <Vorpal> explains why it had such a specific name, instead of, say, "line out" or "analogue out"
20:16:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also: just one speaker?
20:17:40 <elliott> Uhh, presumably one control with two stereo channels :P
20:17:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, huh, not the left/right side of one thing in alsamixer?
20:17:48 <elliott> They're not tied if you use q and w or something.
20:18:03 <elliott> Interestingly my Master here is just one channel; it was two in Ubuntu.
20:18:31 <elliott> <H1>Forbidden</H1>Your client does not have permission to get URL <code>/search?q=x</code> from this server. (Client IP address: 91.105.90.101)<br><br>
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20:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover_> Next point of order: change the theme to something nicer than Clearlooks.
20:22:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Grey Mist!
20:22:11 <elliott> curl -A Mozilla 'http://www.google.com/search?q=hello+world' | sed -n 's/.*resultStats>About \(.*\) results.*/\1/g;p'
20:22:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Unity is quite nice, from the default installed ones.
20:23:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:24:13 <Vorpal> elliott, set the user agent to Mozilla
20:24:46 <elliott> Now tell my why my sed doesn't work.
20:25:15 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you trying to do with it?
20:25:45 <elliott> Vorpal: what's the sed for "go to next line" again? :P
20:25:58 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, slipped my mind
20:26:10 <elliott> All I want is "if this substitution succeeds, print the line"!
20:29:23 <Phantom_Hoover_> On Ubuntu, tapping the top-right corner of the touchpad middle-clicked.
20:29:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Go into Mouse preferences.
20:29:44 <elliott> There's probably something there.
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20:32:31 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/zDzYt.jpg this makes me want to succumb to the minecraft hype
20:35:14 <elliott> http://towardsdawns.blogspot.com/ This too.
20:36:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, gpointingdevicesettings?
20:36:22 <Vorpal> (might be missing some - in there)
20:36:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it can probably set that
20:37:15 <elliott> http://live.gnome.org/GPointingDeviceSettings
20:37:22 <elliott> "Today I decided to ask for adopter of GPointingDeviceSettings. The single reason is that I no longer have hardware (touchpad) needed to diagnose most of bugs which appear within it."
20:37:57 <elliott> Bah! That's it. I'm buying Minecraft.
20:38:16 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't manage to play the classical online either?
20:38:28 <elliott> Well I could. But the Alpha looks so nice.
20:38:37 <Vorpal> elliott, I never got the non-alpha to work :(
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20:38:53 <Vorpal> hm I could try on that non x86-64 perhaps...
20:39:47 <elliott> Vorpal: you need the sun jvm
20:41:21 <elliott> "Download Minecraft.jar, an executable jar file. It might work as-is.
20:41:21 <elliott> If you run into out of memory errors, try launching it with java -Xmx1024M -Xms512M -cp Minecraft.jar net.minecraft.LauncherFrame
20:41:22 <elliott> Also, please make sure you're running the Sun JVM... "
20:41:26 <elliott> so i'd assume the same goes for classic too
20:42:18 <Vorpal> elliott, except alpha worked up until login for me with openjdk
20:42:40 <elliott> Hey, my account must be super-old... I must have registered this when Hideous told me about it, and that was in very early days...
20:42:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Alpha costs money, so presumably it won't let you in if you don't buy it :P
20:43:50 <elliott> Oh of *course* I remember when it was single-player only.
20:44:10 <olsner> minecraft dot ... jar!?
20:44:18 <elliott> olsner: It's written in Java :P
20:44:38 <elliott> olsner: Winge winge winge, if it wasn't it'd be Windows-only.
20:45:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I decompiled minecraft alpha .jar btw. Pointless, it downloads another jar after logging in and getting a session token.
20:46:06 <Vorpal> java is after all easy to decompile
20:47:17 <olsner> so you need to get your hands of the data directory of someone who's already logged in and downloaded the stuff
20:48:05 <elliott> olsner: and watch as it doesn't let you talk to the server because you're not authenticated
20:48:45 <olsner> just write your own server
20:49:05 <elliott> olsner: It's perfectly legal to use one of the third-party servers for free :P
20:49:07 <elliott> The server is up for download.
20:49:13 <elliott> So, congrats, you failed at rebellion!
20:49:34 <olsner> so then you just need to remove the checks from the downloaded jar you download
20:49:48 <elliott> ...??? Or just tell it to connect to a different server.
20:50:00 <elliott> I don't think olsner quite grasps how this works.
20:50:16 <olsner> oh, that easy? I thought it tried to authenticate the client before letting you in
20:50:28 <elliott> well, dunno; the server is up for download
20:50:35 <elliott> and so is the actual minecraft jar
20:50:45 <elliott> so one would assume you're allowed to just set up your own server
20:50:50 <elliott> especially as those already exist
20:50:57 <elliott> & i've heard friends saying they just use third-party servers
20:52:07 <elliott> Woo, single-player classic starts.
20:52:55 <elliott> Sweet, my card can't handle the AWESOME
20:56:21 <Vorpal> <olsner> so you need to get your hands of the data directory of someone who's already logged in and downloaded the stuff <-- yes
20:57:57 <Vorpal> elliott, would you send me the data dir? just for trying it out you understand. Since I can't get the classical version to work... If I can get it to work and like it enough to play it more than an hour or two I would buy it.
20:58:12 <Vorpal> but wasting that money without being able to test it first? nah
20:58:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Um, testing.
20:58:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Right now it is called "squeeze".
20:58:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It is currently frozen; after squeeze's release, it will begin to be updated regularly again.
20:58:41 <elliott> Vorpal: You see, I would but I haven't bought it yet :P
20:58:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Making sure I can play it without ZOMGSLOW first.
20:59:07 <elliott> Vorpal: also surely you'd need a premium account on the server?
20:59:12 <elliott> it *is* a networked game after all
20:59:38 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean *if* you buy it
20:59:51 <Vorpal> elliott, you don't need a premium account except for downloading it
20:59:57 <Vorpal> you can play it offline after that
21:00:39 <Vorpal> elliott, it says you have to login at least once but based on decompiling it decides you haven't logged in at least once due to the downloaded files missing
21:00:59 <Vorpal> elliott, unless the main jar have some additional checks, it should work fine
21:01:13 * elliott assumes distorted game music is due to appletness
21:01:22 <Vorpal> elliott, you got the applet to work?
21:01:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Step 1. Install sun-java6-plugin.
21:01:34 <elliott> Step 2. There is no step 2.
21:01:51 <Vorpal> elliott, that is the partner repo right? it isn't in multiverse at least
21:02:16 <pikhq_> Vorpal: SUCKS TO BE YOU.
21:02:19 <elliott> "non-free" :P I'm googling
21:02:26 <pikhq_> Vorpal: It's in non-free on Debian.
21:02:30 <elliott> For Ubuntu 10.04 LTS, the sun-java6 packages have been dropped from the ...
21:02:40 <elliott> Vorpal: Try just installing the icedtea plugin or something.
21:02:51 <pikhq_> Yeah, try that; should work just fine.
21:02:52 <Vorpal> elliott, well icedtea + openjdk did not
21:03:03 <elliott> Vorpal: the browser plugin may be a separate package
21:03:25 <pikhq_> Weird that OpenJDK wouldn't work; it's almost exactly the same as the Sun JVM.
21:03:38 <Vorpal> icedtea depends on openjdk
21:03:53 <Vorpal> at least the package does
21:04:20 <elliott> Vorpal: icedtea is an alternative jvm for openjdk
21:04:24 <Vorpal> elliott, that means it will use openjdk, which doesn't work
21:04:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, that's all icedtea works with...
21:04:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Try icedtea6-plugin.
21:04:43 <Vorpal> elliott, I *tried* that
21:05:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Okay, yes, that doesn't work.
21:05:20 <elliott> Vorpal: What about the gcj jre? :p
21:05:29 <elliott> Which I doubt has a plugin.
21:05:31 <Vorpal> elliott, sun-java packages are in the partner repo on lucid. But not sun-java6-plugin
21:05:40 <elliott> Vorpal: probably one of them includes -plugin
21:06:00 <Vorpal> wait, I did a second u in aptitude and now it is there
21:08:32 <elliott> Bet it's less choppy in Chrome.
21:08:35 <elliott> The following NEW packages will be installed:
21:08:36 <elliott> chromium-browser chromium-browser-inspector{a} libv8-2.2.24{a}
21:15:49 <Gregor> pikhq_: GO LOOK AT ECONOMIST.COM
21:15:57 <Gregor> (Namely the doctype and MIME type)
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21:26:18 <Gregor> pikhq_: Kinda makes me look like small potatoes, DUNNIT
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21:29:53 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: text/html for XHTML.
21:30:03 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: This is broken and people should make it stop.
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21:32:00 <elliott> pikhq_: Note: It's legal XHTML.
21:32:10 <elliott> So you're actually saying "Work around browser bugs!".
21:32:22 <elliott> (Okay, not legal XHTML 1.1. But nobody uses that.)
21:33:05 <pikhq_> elliott: It's legal XHTML, but it has a lot of brokenness.
21:33:20 <pikhq_> elliott: Mostly coming from how even XHTML-supporting browsers will use their HTML parsers on it.
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21:33:49 <pikhq_> elliott: And so there's a *lot* of invalid XHTML with an XHTML DTD and HTML doctype floating around.
21:33:52 <elliott> pikhq_: So your "graar things that are technically incorrect" argument LOSES because it's perfectly valid.
21:34:37 <pikhq_> elliott: Yes, it's valid, but broken.
21:35:01 <pikhq_> elliott: Because it gets treated as HTML, and HTML parsers allow for a lot of broken shit.
21:35:31 <pikhq_> elliott: Whereas an XHTML parser would just say "fuck you" at the first sign of being non-well-formed, and so people wouldn't actually put out broken "XHTML".
21:35:40 <elliott> <pikhq_> elliott: Whereas an XHTML parser would just say "fuck you" at the first sign of being non-well-formed, and so people wouldn't actually put out broken "XHTML".
21:35:47 <elliott> Thus breaking Postel's Law, one of the most important laws of the internet.
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21:36:25 <pikhq_> elliott: Also, it's invalid XHTML 5. :)
21:36:34 <elliott> <elliott> Thus breaking Postel's Law, one of the most important laws of the internet.
21:36:36 <elliott> <pikhq_> elliott: Whereas an XHTML parser would just say "fuck you" at the first sign of being non-well-formed, and so people wouldn't actually put out broken "XHTML".
21:37:43 <pikhq_> elliott: Being leniant in what you accept has caused a *lot* of fucking problems on the Web. It's taking Postel's Law to Postel's Braindamage.
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21:37:55 <elliott> pikhq: No, it's literally Postel's Law.
21:37:58 <elliott> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/01/08/postels-law
21:37:58 <elliott> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/01/14/thought_experiment
21:38:02 <elliott> The standard links I give to everyone about this.
21:38:10 <elliott> Read these, read all of these, and then don't stop until you have finished reading all of these two.
21:40:54 <Vorpal> elliott, so did you buy minecraft or?
21:41:03 <elliott> Vorpal: oh yeah i buy things immediately.
21:41:08 <pikhq> elliott: Problem: What people actually do is "if it's accepted by $USERAGENT, that's conservative enough." What I want is for web browsers to kick authors in the balls for that.
21:41:12 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm still trying to figure out if the sound thing would be easily fixable
21:41:24 <elliott> pikhq: Hi, I see you didn't read both of those links.
21:41:29 <elliott> Please read both of those links. Thank you.
21:41:42 <Vorpal> elliott, in minecraft? it works fine on this old x86-32 dell laptop with a pentium M!
21:41:50 <Vorpal> elliott, in the classic applet thingy
21:41:51 <elliott> Vorpal: linux sound sucks ass
21:42:02 <Vorpal> elliott, ubuntu, pulseaudio alsa
21:42:15 <Vorpal> elliott, not even intel audio
21:42:19 <Vorpal> some weird ac97 thingy
21:42:31 <elliott> pikhq: Also, perhaps meditate on this statement: "Just because I am a zealot, this does not mean that my zealotry should dictate how systems should operate, rather than far more important concerns."
21:42:42 <Vorpal> elliott, hm sound in applets work fine on my thinkpad with intel hd audio
21:42:50 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, the dell is intel. Just not intel hd
21:42:57 <elliott> Intel HDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD here
21:43:15 <elliott> Definition SO HIGH that LINUX HATES YOU
21:43:20 <pikhq> elliott: From those links, I get one thing: don't fucking use XHTML at all, because a conforming implementation should kick you in the balls if you fuck it up at all.
21:43:33 <pikhq> elliott: And you don't want to be kicked in the balls now do you.
21:43:40 <elliott> pikhq: Okay, so basically, removing the / before > makes Postel's Law okay again.
21:43:47 <elliott> pikhq: Even though there is no reason XML should behave differently to everything else.
21:43:52 <elliott> pikhq: Even though the only person who wanted it to was Tim Bray.
21:44:06 <elliott> Who unilaterally decided to break Postel's Law for no reason other than he wanted to, despite many complaints, in the formative days of XML.
21:44:21 <pikhq> elliott: Well, I'm in favor of deleting XML entirely, so...
21:44:22 <elliott> And yet -- if you remove that / before that > -- suddenly, your zealotry disappears and it's okay again.
21:44:29 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I just installed sun vm on my thinkpad with intel hd, no stuttering
21:44:41 <Vorpal> usual sound quality for the built in speakers
21:45:01 <pikhq> elliott: See, here's the thing. XML is *supposed* to "always be entirely well formed". If you're unwilling to put up with that, fucking stop with the XML.
21:45:08 <elliott> pikhq: By the way, did I mention? Want SVG in HTML?
21:45:13 <elliott> pikhq: You have to use XHTML.
21:45:13 <pikhq> elliott: Or: TLDR; fucking stop with the XML.
21:45:31 <elliott> http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.html
21:45:32 <elliott> http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.xhtml
21:45:35 <elliott> note how only the latter works
21:45:50 <elliott> note: SECOND ONE SERVED AS TEXT/HTML OH EM GEE CLOUDS RAIN DOWN FROM THE SKY
21:46:17 <pikhq> elliott: Invalid XHTML5 hooray.
21:46:26 <pikhq> elliott: He should be conservative in what he sends.
21:46:37 <elliott> pikhq: Care to give me a variation on the first file that works?
21:46:42 <elliott> Protip: you can't because only XHTML5 can do that.
21:47:08 <pikhq> elliott: HTML 5 has it in the spec.
21:47:13 <pikhq> elliott: Not my fault useragents don't have it.
21:47:18 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and XHTML has text/html in the spec too.
21:47:23 <elliott> Yet you advocate working around browsers there.
21:47:32 <elliott> WHAT IS THIS? The zealot is hypocritical?
21:47:36 <pikhq> elliott: XHTML 5 explicitly has it not in the spec.
21:47:57 <elliott> pikhq: Congratulations, you changed the topic to avoid answering my question.
21:48:55 <elliott> "This only works in XHTML 5." "Well, it's in the spec. It's the browser's problem." "But you strongly advocate not sending XHTML 1 as text/html, even though this is in the XHTML 1 spec, and it is just a browser workaround." "[CHANGE TOPIC TO SERVING HTML AS TEXT/HTML AND REFERENCE XHTML5 EVEN THOUGH THAT HAS NO RELEVANCE HERE]"
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21:50:13 <elliott> Ah, yes: "[implication that this is a meaningless flamewar]", the most effective way to make sure that it is impossible to claim anyone is right.
21:50:22 <pikhq> elliott: Okay. The problem is not in sending 100% valid XHTML 1 as text/html, the problem is that most people send out somewhat broken HTML with an XHTML DTD as text/html.
21:50:26 -!- ________________ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
21:50:30 <elliott> pikhq: Stop changing the subject.
21:50:39 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I'm not saying it's a flame war. It is a fight.
21:50:43 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, from what?O
21:50:57 <pikhq> elliott: Serving XHTML as text/html to serving XHTML as text/html?
21:50:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It is an argument. There is a difference.
21:51:22 <elliott> pikhq: SUBJECT 1: "SVG embedding only works in XHTML 5, not HTML 5." SUBJECT 2: "XHTML as text/html".
21:52:03 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, subject 1. It *should* work in HTML 5. That it does not is a bug in the browsers.
21:52:07 <elliott> pikhq: You decided to disregard Subject 1 by replying that it is the browser's fault. I replied pointing out the inconsistency; as for subject 2, even with Gregor, who had perfectly valid XHTML served as text/html, you yelled at him to change the Content-Type. This is a workaround for a browser bug. But so is using XHTML 5 to embed SVG!
21:52:17 <elliott> So in Subject 1, you advocate not working around browsers.
21:52:23 <elliott> But in Subject 2, you VEHEMENTLY argue for working around browsers.
21:52:30 <elliott> You are, therefore, a zealot and a hypocrite.
21:53:21 <pikhq> elliott: By the way, nice job on showing me the *first* case of actually *gaining* something by sending XHTML as text/html.\
21:53:45 <pikhq> elliott: Seriously, I had no clue that there was any advantage at *all* over just using HTML.
21:53:58 <elliott> This is why http://intertwingly.net/ is XHTML 5.
21:54:18 <pikhq> elliott: Though in this case it's minor, because the only useragent without SVG support is also the only useragent without XHTML support.
21:54:41 <elliott> pikhq: ...so? The point is that XHTML 5 *does* have advantages over HTML 5, in practical use.
21:54:58 <elliott> http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.html does not work.
21:55:01 <elliott> http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.xhtml works.
21:55:29 <pikhq> elliott: And the only user agent that wouldn't handle compliant XHTML 5 doesn't support the SVG embedding anyways.
21:56:02 <elliott> *The point is that your complete dismissal of XML is wrong because XHTML 5 has an advantage over HTML 5.*
21:56:09 <elliott> *I am not talking about Content-Types for once, for fuck's sake*
21:56:10 <pikhq> ... So it'll be broken even if you are liberal in what you send?
21:56:52 <elliott> FORGET CONTENT-TYPES EXIST FOR A MOMENT (try saving these files to your computer first)
21:57:05 <elliott> http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.html is HTML 5, because it has no xmlns attribute in the html tag.
21:57:10 <elliott> http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.xhtml is XHTML 5, because it does.
21:57:17 <elliott> SVG embedding only works in the latter, in modern implementations.
21:57:18 <pikhq> XHTML 5 with the text/html doctype is invalid. You need to not be conservative in what you send in order to do that.
21:57:27 <elliott> I HATE YOU IT IS NOT ABOUT CONTENT-TYPE
21:57:37 <elliott> SAVE THE FILES TO YOUR COMPUTER BEFORE THINKING ABOUT THIS
21:57:40 <elliott> (THUS THERE ARE NO CONTENT-TYPES)
21:58:14 <pikhq> Okay, so there are a lot of user-agents that fail at embedded SVG. Where are you going with this?
21:58:41 <elliott> they don't fail at it when it's xhtml 5
21:58:47 <elliott> i'm saying that xhtml 5 has a reason to exist over html 5
21:58:57 <elliott> in reply to you saying that xml should just be forgotten about
21:59:20 <pikhq> elliott: That reason being that browsers are buggy?
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21:59:53 <pikhq> elliott: Seriously, SVG embedding *should* work 100% fine in HTML 5, but browsers have apparently not implemented it.
22:00:04 <elliott> Same with XHTML as application/xml+xhtml being preferable to text/html./
22:00:10 <elliott> It is the browser's fault but that does not make it irrelevant.
22:00:29 <elliott> Also, ironically, this works even when the XHTML 5 is transmitted as text/html, thus proving that browsers do *not* automatically treat everything sent as text/html as pure HTML.
22:00:35 <elliott> In this case, they treat it as XHTML 5.
22:00:54 <pikhq> Which is astounding. When they're allowed to they don't and when they're not allowed to they do.
22:01:25 <Gregor> You lose every argument FOREVER.
22:01:36 <pikhq> Though actually...
22:01:37 <elliott> pikhq: I think you will find that the HTML 5 parsing spec allows them to do it.
22:01:45 <elliott> Because it is, by definition, extremely liberal in what it accepts.
22:01:54 <elliott> Being that it accepts every byte string.
22:02:12 <pikhq> The behavior they're showing for the XHTML 5 *is* in fact exactly how it should work if interpreted as invalid HTML 5.
22:02:28 <pikhq> They just don't handle the case of valid HTML 5. That's... Amazingly stupid. :P
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22:07:40 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIz3g7pdHDM
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22:09:03 <pikhq> elliott: The HTML 5 with SVG embedded doesn't work in the version of Chrome that Debian ships with right now.
22:09:17 <pikhq> elliott: And it requires manual enabling for Firefox.
22:09:27 <pikhq> elliott: So, the way to get it to work: use a newer browser.
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22:10:24 <pikhq> Can't tell you why it works using the HTML parser on XHTML though. Seriously, I got nothing.
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22:10:43 <pikhq> (Hmm. Maybe they try to parse it as XHTML then fail to the HTML parser?)
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22:19:01 <ais523> <elliott> Being that it accepts every byte string <--- even embedded NUL? even 9-bit bytes with the high bit set?
22:19:36 <pikhq> ais523: There's no such thing as a 9-bit byte.
22:19:50 <pikhq> ais523: But yes, U+0 is accepted by the parser.
22:21:16 <ais523> pikhq: there is a 9-bit byte, see, for example, the C standard, which allows arbitrary bytewidths >= 8
22:21:27 <ais523> and some systems actually use 9-bit bytes
22:21:29 <pikhq> ais523: Not on the Internet.
22:21:34 <ais523> OTOH, networks transmit in octets, so you'd have to be loading a local file
22:26:03 * ais523 still puzzles about that while !times thing
22:26:11 <ais523> that is such a great bug, I want to know what caused it
22:26:42 <Ilari> What it did when you triggered that bug?
22:27:28 <ais523> Ilari: it was a bug report by someone else, in a closed-source MMO that has since been fixed
22:27:35 <ais523> it's just the ridiculousness of the bug that drove my curiosity
22:27:39 <ais523> let me try to find what I wrote
22:28:33 <ais523> <ais523> "sub f while !times 2 use spices endwhile endsub while !times 4 call f endwhile", "while !times 2 while !times 2 use spices endwhile endwhile", "while !times 2 while !times 4 use spices endwhile endwhile", "while !times 4 while !times 2 use spices endwhile endwhile" use spices 4, 3, 19, 5 times respectively
22:28:44 <ais523> that's the only info I had, but it's crazy enough to wonder what on earth is going on
22:29:16 <ais523> as a reference point, "while !times 5 use spices endwhile" would use spices 5 times; that's the intended use
22:29:39 <Ilari> No information what that piece of code actually did in buggy implementations?
22:30:35 <ais523> Ilari: the bug was related to the nesting of while
22:30:45 <ais523> and the implementation of times
22:31:25 <Ilari> Ah, I think I understand what the bug actually is, but I haven't thought what could cause it.
22:31:38 <ais523> hmm, go for it, maybe someone else can take it back a level
22:32:31 <pikhq> elliott: Y'know what? Fuck HTML. We should go back to Gopher.
22:37:31 <Ilari> I think it referes how many times spices are used if you run those code snppets. Looks like nested loops run totally wrong number of times...
22:39:37 <Ilari> And might not be simple bug, as it interacts with subroutine calls at well (both first and fourth should use the same amount, but they don't).
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23:07:47 <Sgeo> I was about to comment on something weird, then I realized I divided by 0.
23:07:51 <Sgeo> I want to comment anyway.
23:09:25 <Sgeo> ∫0dx = 0∫dx = 0(x + C) = 0.. where'd the C go
23:09:50 <Sgeo> It's kind of clear that the division by 0 makes it screwy.. but not in a way that explains to me how the C disappeared
23:09:58 <Sgeo> There's no issue for any non-0 constant obviously
23:10:29 * Sgeo .. kind of imagines that it's a C that * 0 can be nonzero.. similar to how non-0 multipliers do it
23:10:38 <Sgeo> And that this somehow came about due to the division by 0
23:14:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, well, intuitively, the integral of 0 dx is a constant.
23:15:12 <Sgeo> Hence me asking where the C went
23:15:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, FWIW, someone has posted a reversible life rule to the rule table repository.
23:16:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Turns out I don't know how to compile Golly on Debian.
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23:20:04 <Sgeo> I mean, clearly, for any non 0 n, ∫n dx = n∫dx = n(x+C) = nx + nC and nC is still just a constant
23:20:10 <Sgeo> Which we may as well call C
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23:28:53 <Ilari> Failing with what error?
23:30:40 <Phantom_Hoover> "mkdir: error while loading shared libraries: libselinux.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory"
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23:43:15 <Sgeo> Note to self: Don't bother attempting to implement Factor in Second Life
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23:51:21 <elliott> http://www.w3.org/Provider/ServerWriter.html last modified 1995
23:51:25 <elliott> Here is a run-through of what is needed to make a www server , with examples from a suggested server for the HEPDATA base of Mike Whalley . See also etiquette .
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00:21:45 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> elliott, FWIW, someone has posted a reversible life rule to the rule table repository." <<< two-dimensional reversible CA? how is that interesting
00:22:16 <oklopol> or do i misinterpret life rule
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00:40:32 <elliott> oklopol: you don't misinterpret, presumably phanty means one that has close-to-life behaviour or ... something
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00:40:42 <elliott> or maybe one that uses colours to simulate reversibility on "regular" life or something
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00:44:43 <oklopol> hmm, i feel like i should know something about when that's possible
00:48:59 <Sgeo> http://notalwaysright.com/ah-fathers-part-4/8117
00:52:03 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiNT
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01:42:16 <Sgeo> #tweetyour16yearoldself Make plans for college. Learn to drive. Don't rely on dad's planning for either.
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02:18:50 <Gregor> Plans for college: Great success
02:19:10 <Gregor> #tweetyour16yearoldself YOU'RE AWESOME! KEEP DOIN' WHAT YOU DO
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02:21:12 <Sgeo> I still haven't learned to drive
02:48:18 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Drivers license: 16 <-- I read that as "Driver licenses" XD
02:49:00 <Vorpal> Sgeo, learning to drive isn't hard when you get the knack of it ;)
02:49:20 <Vorpal> err get the hang of it
02:49:30 <Vorpal> (I mixed up two idioms didn't I?)
02:49:55 <Vorpal> elliott, any news wrt. minecraft?
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02:51:10 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc it was all but one file in ~/.minecraft that had to be copied. The one file that shouldn't be copied had the saved username/passwd.
02:52:21 <Vorpal> elliott, also building aqueducts and bridges in classic is fun
02:52:41 <Vorpal> elliott, also there is a max altitude in classic at least
02:52:51 <Vorpal> I arranged for a jump from top to bottom
02:53:04 <Vorpal> didn't last nearly long enough
02:54:22 <Vorpal> elliott, have fun, need to sleep now →
02:57:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: "knack of it" seems a tiny bit archaic, but it's entirely valid.
03:10:02 <Sgeo> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/electrical-brain-zap-boosts-maths-ability-2125389.html I was thinking how I'd like that, but then started thinking that my problem is ignorance, not lack of ability
03:29:17 <Ilari> Haha... 'Maternal Intake of "Saturated Fat" Causes Liver Disease -- You Know, the Unsaturated Kind of Saturated Fat'.
03:29:42 <Ilari> Oh, I didn't know that unsaturated saturated fat exists... :-)
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03:41:07 <Ilari> Oh, I think I know. Trans fats are said to be equivalent to saturated fat, but aren't saturated, so I think unsaturated saturated fats really means trans fats. :->
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03:44:16 <Sasha> that worked in another channel
03:47:10 <Ilari> Teleanalysis has reached its bottom. If A is uncorrelated with B and B is correlated with C, A causes C (classic teleanalysis is if A is correlated with B and B is corrlated with C, then A causes C).
03:47:43 <coppro> Sasha: it's best if you idle for a while
03:47:49 <coppro> if you do it right then, it's obvious
03:48:01 <coppro> Ilari: Trans fats are not cis fats
03:48:06 <Sasha> coppro: I did it right then
03:48:18 <coppro> and there's no such thing as an unsaturated saturated fat
03:48:23 <elliott> <coppro> and there's no such thing as an unsaturated saturated fat
03:48:24 <Ilari> Well, all trans fats are unsaturated. :-)
03:48:37 <coppro> Sasha: no, I mean you join as You, then you wait for a long while, /then/ you inform people of their disconnection
03:48:53 <Sasha> but on the other channel, I did it as soon as I entered
03:49:03 <Sasha> trolled 5 or 6 people 5 or 6 times
03:49:11 <Ilari> Oh, and there are also fats that have both cis and trans double bond (CLA).
03:51:06 <Ilari> Quite a bit of different animals than techno fats: IIRC, in one study, for normal (techno) trans fats, ratio of $SOMETHING_BAD between highest and lowest quitiles was 5, whereas it was 0.5 for CLA...
03:53:04 <Ilari> IIRC, all studies of milkfat involving real markers (and not just notoriously unreliable dietary questionaries) say milk fat is healthy.
03:54:07 <Ilari> Especially whole milk... :-)
03:55:14 <Ilari> Oh, and milk fat is also good for dissolving various useful compounds out of vegetables... :-)
03:57:49 <Ilari> Dietary questionaries are unreliable for three reasons: 1) They don't capture the diet well, 2) People have poor memory about what they have eaten (even recently), 3) Intentional distortion.
03:59:38 <Ilari> It could be fun to first do a log of everything eaten for a week, then fill dietary questionare with that log as reference and then see the garbage that results...
04:00:43 <Sgeo> I could probably do such a log from memory
04:00:53 <Sgeo> My diet doesn't vary as much as it possibly should
04:02:02 <elliott> I can't think of any justification for changing a diet day-to-day from a health point of view.
04:02:10 <Sgeo> Chocolate cheerios for breakfast sometimes, sometimes potato chips. Chicken sandwich with lettice and onions. Coca-Cola (not Diet). ~1 box of Pasta with Parmesan Cheese
04:02:11 <elliott> If it's nutritious one twenty-four hour period it's nutritious the next...
04:02:47 <Sgeo> What if one 24 hour period provides only some nutrients, but the next it's varied up, providing the rest?
04:03:21 <pikhq> Sgeo: You are making Ilari cringe.
04:03:35 <Sgeo> Oh, the sandwich is only on school days, Monday-Thursday
04:03:50 <Ilari> That works... Usual nutrion misinformation claims that one must get water-soluble vitamins every day. Defiency symptoms with those take at least weeks to appear...
04:04:09 <elliott> pikhq: I even *felt* the cringe over IRC.
04:04:21 <elliott> It sounded like: "*cringe*".
04:04:21 <pikhq> ... Waitwaitwait. That's what you eat *each and every day*?
04:04:43 -!- elliott has set topic: oerjan missing | *cringe* record: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
04:04:50 <Sgeo> Oh, the potato chips are also only on school days. Often, on those days, they're instead of the cheerios
04:05:00 <Sgeo> Soda is also only on school days
04:05:36 <pikhq> Chips for breakfast. That's... Urgh.
04:06:14 <Ilari> Oh, and they conviently don't mention that fat-soluble vitamins (including the extremely important vitamin D) *require* fat to be absorbed.
04:06:47 <elliott> I like how Debian's xorg no longer ships with twm.
04:07:28 <pikhq> elliott: Modular X.org...
04:07:40 <elliott> pikhq: Is evil and lacks twm purity.
04:07:47 <Ilari> Potato chips wouldn't be so bad (not that those would be good even then) if those used proper fats for cooking (instead of kinds of fats that are completely unsuitable for cooking).
04:07:55 <pikhq> elliott: Doesn't have Twm by default.
04:07:59 <elliott> pikhq: Is evil and lacks twm purity.
04:08:12 <pikhq> Ilari: Such fats being?
04:08:14 <elliott> pikhq: I mean, twm is modern! It supports the Debian menu!
04:08:29 <pikhq> elliott: Would it make you feel better to know that Gentoo's X.org meta package does include Twm?
04:08:36 <elliott> pikhq: No, because that's Gentoo.
04:08:42 <pikhq> (because that meta package is "the entirety of X")
04:08:53 <Ilari> Coconut oil, palm oil, lard, ghee, tallow, ... Pick a favorite...
04:09:25 <Sgeo> Whichever will cause me to gain weight without causing cardiac issues
04:09:27 <pikhq> Hmm. I'd imagine ghee would give a quite interesting flavor to chips. Now I'm curious.
04:09:54 <Ilari> Some decades ago (before some front groups changed that), McDonalds used IIRC tallow for frying french fries...
04:10:18 <pikhq> Because tallow makes them more delicious.
04:10:40 <elliott> oclock(1) best program ever
04:10:51 <coppro> no, vineagar makes them more delicious
04:11:05 <Ilari> Making ghee from butter is a simple process...
04:11:08 <elliott> (2) "Let's just get rid of the fat and use vinegar instead."
04:11:38 <Ilari> Hmm... Wonder what would be health effects of high amounts of organic acids...
04:12:03 <coppro> better than high amounts of HF
04:12:37 <coppro> it's a chemical formula
04:12:40 <coppro> for a surprisingly weak acid
04:12:50 <elliott> I thought it was something more relevant :P
04:13:22 <coppro> it is, however, a powerful contact poison
04:13:29 <pikhq> coppro: "weak acid" is a classification, not an indicator of corrosiveness.
04:13:34 <elliott> pikhq: I just got a wonderful, wonderful idea. By the last NeXTSTEP release in 1995, it noy only ran on the 68k, but also SPARC, HP PA-RISC, and... x86.
04:13:36 <coppro> (not as bad as dimethylmercury though. that shit is fucking scary)
04:13:40 <elliott> pikhq: What I'm saying is: Virtual machine.
04:13:48 <Ilari> At least it isn't ClF3 (that thing ignites sand on contact, eats through asbestos bricks, ...)
04:13:51 <pikhq> coppro: It's actually highly corrosive.
04:14:00 <coppro> pikhq: yeah, that's true
04:14:12 <coppro> but compared to other hydrohalogenic acids, it's a weakling
04:14:12 <elliott> Ignites sand on contact -- I am having trouble thinking of a more awesome substance.
04:14:46 <elliott> pikhq: I may have just found an x86 NextStep ISO. Cough.
04:14:55 <pikhq> elliott: HF is toxic on contact.
04:15:02 <coppro> a drop of dimethylmercury on a latex glove is lethal
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04:15:25 <elliott> I drink dimethylmercury for breakfast.
04:15:56 * Sgeo starts planning elliott's funeral.
04:16:02 <coppro> holy crap, ClF3 is powerful
04:16:08 <coppro> "no ignition delay has ever been recorded"
04:16:09 <pikhq> elliott: It doesn't burn you right away. It instead stops your heart.
04:16:22 <pikhq> CIF3 scares me even more.
04:16:55 <coppro> "It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water — with which it reacts explosively"
04:17:01 <Ilari> Oh, there's also FOOF. Explodes on contact with ice at -170 degC.
04:17:08 <elliott> pikhq: Did You Know? There's aptitude-gtk.
04:17:44 <coppro> pikhq: can't find much on CIF3
04:17:55 <coppro> actually, I don't even know if that compound could exist
04:18:08 <elliott> pikhq: The problem is, it's no good. :)
04:18:21 <pikhq> coppro: Fluorine makes a lot of unusual compounds.
04:18:34 <pikhq> coppro: What with being the most reactive element.
04:18:54 <Ilari> Orbitals of Cl can hybrize, that's why it can form more than one bond.
04:19:05 <Sgeo> "Hydrogen fluoride is generated upon combustion of many fluorine-containing compounds such as products containing Viton and polytetrafluoroethylene (Teflon) parts. Hydrogen fluoride converts immediately to hydrofluoric acid upon contact with liquid water."
04:19:54 <pikhq> Yes, fluorine reacts with nobel gasses.
04:19:58 <Sgeo> Isn't that a noble gas?
04:19:59 <coppro> Sgeo: all hydrogen halides dissolve pretty much instantly
04:20:18 <coppro> 251 kJ/mol formation energy, too
04:20:26 <Sgeo> <pikhq> Yes, fluorine reacts with nobel gasses.
04:20:36 <elliott> It reacts with gases that have Nobel Prizes.
04:20:55 <coppro> Sgeo: the heavier noble gases are not as stable as you might think
04:20:58 <coppro> they are still highly stable
04:21:03 <elliott> Is a better man than you are
04:21:05 <coppro> but compounds can be made with them
04:21:06 <pikhq> Sgeo: So does water.
04:21:23 * Sgeo starts frothing at the mouth
04:21:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: Xe·6H2O is a real compound.
04:21:44 <Sgeo> Are you _trying_ to kill me?
04:21:47 <coppro> pikhq: uh, isn't that just a hydrated solid?
04:22:46 <Sgeo> There's a Wikipedia page for Xenon compounds
04:22:46 <coppro> pikhq: that looks like a hydrated solid
04:22:54 <coppro> and so not an actual compound as such
04:22:56 <Sgeo> Oh, for Noble gas compounds
04:23:08 * Sgeo is still WTFing
04:23:18 <pikhq> I quite like the fullerene compounds.
04:23:29 <coppro> I like how I didn't clarify at all, and you said 'ah'
04:23:29 <pikhq> It's a fullerene with a noble gas atom inside!
04:23:46 <pikhq> coppro: "Ah, you won't clarify".
04:23:51 <coppro> I hope the new quantum-nano building at my school is cool
04:24:06 <coppro> oh right, XeF8 is an ion
04:24:25 <elliott> It's a nano-scale building.
04:24:38 <Ilari> Fluorine compounds tend to be really nasty for some reason... Especially if the fluorine is attached something quite electronegative...
04:24:55 <coppro> because fluorine is like 'whee let's react with stuff'
04:25:08 <pikhq> It's the whore of the periodic table.
04:25:20 <coppro> (corollory: fluorine is a whore)
04:26:01 <coppro> also I spelled corollary wrong
04:26:33 <Ilari> Load of nitrogen atoms in molecule just likes to explode. Fluorine atoms in molecule actually tend to react with lots of stuff.
04:27:08 <Ilari> Oh, N3F... Sounds like a fun compound...
04:30:10 <Ilari> Oh, there's also CN4...
04:32:32 <Sgeo> All I know is that CN is cyanide (ion?)
04:34:08 <Ilari> Yeah. CN4 has CN- attached to N3+...
04:35:15 <Sgeo> Isn't 7F Backspace or del or something?
04:35:35 <Sgeo> (YAY FOR RECOGNIZING THAT 8 IS HALF OF 10)
04:40:47 <Sgeo> In base 12 with a zero-width space as a ... wait no.
04:41:27 <myndzi> 7f? no, backspace is 8
04:42:09 <myndzi> i guess 7f counts as del however; i thought all the control chars were < 32
04:42:14 <myndzi> guess you learn something new every day
04:43:09 <myndzi> i thought you were asking a question
04:43:23 <myndzi> yeah, it obliterates anything on paper tape
04:43:27 <myndzi> that is the reasoning apparently
04:43:34 <myndzi> in 7-bit ascii at least
04:43:53 * Sgeo should relearn COBOL
04:47:36 <pikhq> You mean you learned it once?
04:47:43 <Sgeo> Well, I read a book on it once
04:48:00 <Sgeo> I guess that's not the same as learning
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04:52:41 <Ilari> Looking at practices of hog/cattle farmers when raising animals for food is rather instructive... You don't want to feed those animals saturated fat...
04:53:58 <Ilari> (and the reason why is exactly one reason why you should be eating saturated fat).
04:59:59 <Sgeo> New xkcd in 1 min
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05:02:20 <Sgeo> (I secretly wanted to see how elliott would react)
05:03:01 <Sgeo> Why does it start sloping downwards/
05:03:36 <Sgeo> Also, WTF at the title
05:03:43 <elliott> pikhq: Have I mentioned recently that debian-installer is awesome?
05:04:12 <elliott> <Sgeo> Why does it start sloping downwards/
05:04:19 <elliott> Because... you spend all your time spinning around?
05:04:28 <elliott> It's xkcd. It's a steaming pile of shit. You know this.
05:05:39 <elliott> pikhq: It is! Although the expert mode has some *really weird* parts. Like: You can disable shadow passwords. Why? But then, on the same screen, you can use sudo instead of a root account. Why isn't this in the regular install? That's useful.
05:05:56 <elliott> pikhq: On the other hand... it can set up encrypted LVM with a few clicks. wtfawesome
05:07:37 <elliott> pikhq: Still... what kind of monster puts an utterly useless option (disable shadow passwords) on the same page as a very useful one (use sudo instead of root), and then hides that screen in the non-tedious^Wexpert installer?
05:07:54 <Sgeo> elliott, I meant when the friction is higher
05:08:13 <elliott> Sgeo: Because you can't move your chair about.
05:08:23 <elliott> It's xkcd, it sucks, it makes no fucking sense! YOU KNOW THIS!
05:10:16 <elliott> "Something tragic has happened in the Author’s life, and we feel that pointing out his love-life’s shortcomings or his relentless obsession with childhood would not be appropriate at this time." --xkcd explained
05:10:54 <coppro> relentless obsession with childhood?
05:11:38 <elliott> ("An updated version of the Map of Online Communities - a visualization of the size and relationships between various web communities.
05:11:39 <elliott> This otherwise useless data is visualized as a map for a good reason. It is meant to convince those that spend a majority of their lives online that the communities they belong to actually matter, like actual geographic locations. It is meant to give meaning to otherwise meaningless lives.")
05:11:45 <elliott> It's like xkcdsucks but doesn't suck!
05:12:09 <elliott> ("The hatted man then walks in and replaces “hammer” and “something it is not suited for” in the aforementioned phrase with other words that the Author deemed more wacky and humorous. Another example of this could be: “when all you have is a ball-point pen, everything starts to look like a stick figure.”")
05:12:20 <pikhq> elliott: Didn't the updated version of that actually show that it was a very very tiny inset of the map of Real Life?
05:12:28 <pikhq> Thus making the point even more clear?
05:12:37 <elliott> pikhq: Not that I am aware of.
05:12:46 <elliott> pikhq: Also, that quote was from xkcd explained, not Randall.
05:12:55 <elliott> RANDALL WOULD NEVER STATE SOMETHING SO OFFENSIVE TO NETIZENS
05:13:20 <pikhq> He has in #xkcd sometimes. I wonder why the hell he keeps the comic up, actually.
05:13:36 <elliott> pikhq: The comic being that particular one or xkcd itself?
05:13:40 <elliott> If the latter, I agree. :P
05:13:44 <elliott> ("The Author, much like Stephen Hawking, creates comics such as these as a cry for help. A cry that will, sadly, never be heard over the cackling laughter of his devoted fans.")
05:14:11 <pikhq> elliott: xkcd itself.
05:14:29 <elliott> pikhq: money + some horribly misguided belief that it's funny and/or emotional
05:14:46 <pikhq> elliott: I suspect money's the larger factor at this point.
05:15:06 <elliott> pikhq: no, he could easily churn out basically decent comics that appeal to the target audience on his schedule
05:15:17 <elliott> pikhq: but he keeps trying to be different and even his fans sometimes go "wat" on the forums
05:15:25 <pikhq> Yeah, but churning out shit is easier.
05:15:41 <elliott> pikhq: but he doesn't, he churns out uniquely demented shit
05:15:51 <elliott> comics he'd have to think about quite a lot just to fuck them up so effectively
05:16:07 <pikhq> Maybe he's just the world's greatest troll.
05:16:35 <elliott> Occam's Razor says he's just sad. :P
05:23:03 <Sgeo> Online Communities 2 has the entire map being a small portion of Spoken Language
05:23:45 <elliott> Oh, indeed. It is sad that you know that.
05:24:05 <Sgeo> elliott, I am capable of looking at the archives and checking
05:24:09 <Sgeo> Which is, in fact, what I did.
05:24:18 <elliott> It is sad that you checked
05:30:13 <elliott> Does anyone know of any practical reversible debuggers, i.e. program can be run backwards as well as forwards?
05:30:34 <elliott> http://urdb.sourceforge.net/ This looks a bit fragile.
05:35:39 <elliott> "AFAIK dwarf is format for executables, there are few formats as you know (Window's exe as opposed to linux's ... what's his name) Dwarf is used in linux, I'm guessing that when you build an app in debug mode the compiler injects debug data to the dwarf in order to debug (I'm guessing break points and etc). If Go, a high level script language is asking to enter here needs of debugging to the way you build an executable it means google is doing so
05:35:40 <elliott> mething bigger with go. (probably for android)."
05:35:52 <elliott> pikhq: Uhh, gdb is not reversible.
05:36:20 <Gregor> elliott: Whoever wrote that needs to be punched in the face.
05:36:23 <pikhq> elliott: They added it in version 7. I do not know how to use it.
05:36:37 <elliott> Gregor: The line immediately before it: "Ok... I think I get it... the Google is trying to rape a dwarf? :)"
05:36:43 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/e1c6e/go_issued_for_inclusion_in_forthcoming_dwarf_5/c14ii8l
05:37:32 <pikhq> I'm setting fists to stun.
05:37:37 <pikhq> And phasers to punch.
05:39:16 <Sgeo> Dear Facebook: Fuck you for not letting me see the message I sent with a friend request (that I withdrew, but whatever)
05:41:26 <elliott> Gregor: READY FOR ANOTHER MULTI-ARCHITECTURE EMULATIONFEST????
05:42:21 <elliott> Gregor: NeXTSTEP 3.3 was released for not only Motorola 68000 but for x86, SPARC, and HP PA-RISC. I have the x86 version and am trying to get it running in qemu. I suggest you try SPARC.
05:42:50 <Gregor> Uhhh, are any of these AVAILABLE? :P
05:43:00 <elliott> Gregor: Well, I have the m68k/x86 version from torrentz.com.
05:43:15 <elliott> Gregor: http://torrentz.com/169206b92525ec1750b19e96acd4be5f17674b0a SPARC and HP PA-RISC.
05:43:20 <elliott> Gregor: "Hey, it has one seed." Good luck, bitch!
05:44:44 <elliott> Gregor: (You may have better luck than I, considering this shit is talking about patching old versions of QEMU.)
05:45:10 * elliott gets qemu 0.9.0 to apply qemu-0.9.0-openstep-busmouse-2.diff
05:46:40 <elliott> A processor emulator that is used to run an x86 Linux Kernel on x86 Linux."
05:47:56 <elliott> http://download.savannah.gnu.org/releases/qemu/ Sweet, where's the old releases.
05:48:48 <elliott> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+archive/primary/+files/qemu_0.9.0.orig.tar.gz
05:50:28 <elliott> Gregor: WARNING: "gcc" looks like gcc 4.x
05:50:28 <elliott> ./configure: 372: Syntax error: Bad fd number
05:50:41 <elliott> dash incompatible + "gcc 4? wat"!
05:50:52 <elliott> QEMU is known to have problems when compiled with gcc 4.x
05:50:53 <elliott> It is recommended that you use gcc 3.x to build QEMU
05:50:53 <elliott> To use this compiler anyway, configure with --disable-gcc-check
05:51:04 <elliott> Gregor: Nope, it knows what gcc 4 is, it just doesn't trust it!
05:51:30 <pikhq> For 0.10 they had to rewrite much of the emulation to get it to work with GCC 4.
05:51:36 <pikhq> (it should now be compiler-agnostic)
05:51:43 <elliott> pikhq: I should install gcc 3, huh.
05:52:28 <Gregor> pikhq: Is it? I thought it still depended heavily on GCC.
05:52:56 <pikhq> Gregor: Oh? Maybe. Probably a lot of magic still going on there.
05:53:06 <elliott> Nice; OpenStep != OPENSTEP
05:53:13 <elliott> OPENSTEP is (was) the official implementation of OpenStep.
05:53:38 <pikhq> Ahahahah. Yeah, it's now compiler agnostic.
05:54:00 <elliott> What's so ahahahah about that :P
05:54:05 <elliott> Deewiant sure hasn't talked in a while.
05:54:06 <Sgeo> Thus answering the question posed by a recent article of The Daily WTF
05:54:15 <Gregor> pikhq: If it doesn't work with MSVC, it's not compiler-agnostic ;)
05:54:16 <elliott> The Daily WTF is terrible now.
05:54:23 <pikhq> elliott: It has parts of TinyCC in it now.
05:54:28 <elliott> Gregor: I took a shit a while ago and it didn't work with MSVC.
05:54:41 <elliott> What, where are the gcc 3 packages in Debian.
05:54:44 <elliott> They were there a second ago.
05:55:07 <elliott> ??? Seriously, I installed it just a few days ago.
05:55:32 <elliott> # [2009-08-07] gcc-3.4 REMOVED from testing (Britney)
05:55:34 <elliott> Well it was there later than that.
05:55:42 <elliott> (Also, fuck you, Britney.)
05:57:00 <elliott> pikhq: So I guess it won't build well as a 64-bit program either, huh? :P
05:57:57 <pikhq> elliott: I mean, I used 0.9 on x86_64...
05:57:59 <elliott> gcc-3.4 depends on cpp-3.4 (= 3.4.6-9); however:
05:58:00 <elliott> Package cpp-3.4 is not installed.
06:00:21 <elliott> Oh yeah, i386-softmmu. Can there be anything better?
06:00:29 <elliott> Gregor: So you are totally doing this for SPARC right? :P
06:01:27 <Sgeo> Are there functions that are continuous everywhere but differentiable nowhere? What of defined anywhere but continuous nowhere? I seem to recall seeing an example of one of those.
06:03:12 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/NeXTSTEP$ qemu-0.9.0/i386-softmmu/qemu -fda 3.3_Boot_Disk.floppyimage -cdrom NextSTEP\ 3.3\ m68k\ i486.iso -net nic,model=ne2kpc -net user -soundhw sb16 -boot a hd.qcow2
06:03:17 <Sgeo> Is Helium the least reactive element?
06:03:22 <elliott> qemu: could not load PC bios '/usr/local/share/qemu/bios.bin'
06:03:55 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/NeXTSTEP$ find qemu-0.9.0 -name bios.bin
06:04:05 <elliott> pikhq: Does QEMU 0.9.0 not ship with a BIOS or something?
06:04:07 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
06:04:26 <elliott> - The PC BIOS comes from the Bochs project
06:04:27 <elliott> (http://bochs.sourceforge.net/). A patch from bios.diff was applied.
06:04:27 <elliott> - The VGA BIOS and the Cirrus VGA BIOS come from the LGPL VGA bios
06:04:27 <elliott> project (http://www.nongnu.org/vgabios/).
06:05:47 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/NeXTSTEP$ qemu-0.9.0/i386-softmmu/qemu -L /usr/share/qemu -fda 3.3_Boot_Disk.floppyimage -cdrom NextSTEP\ 3.3\ m68k\ i486.iso -net nic,model=ne2kpc -net user -soundhw sb16 -boot a hd.qcow2
06:05:50 <elliott> What could possibly go wrong?
06:05:54 <Gregor> Sgeo: You can't get helium to react to anything.
06:05:55 <elliott> qemu: Unsupported NIC: ne2kpc
06:06:27 <Sgeo> What's the next noble gas down, and does that react with anything?
06:07:03 <Gregor> Sgeo: Noble gases, unless ionic, don't react to anything. They're pretty dull all the way up 'til radon. Of course, before there you can still heat 'em up to make pretty colors :P
06:07:30 <Gregor> s/heat 'em up/put huge amounts of electricity through them/
06:08:06 <elliott> That's from my version, but still.
06:08:07 <Sgeo> Xenon is before Radon
06:08:31 <elliott> Whoo, blank QEMU screen of DEATH
06:08:53 <Gregor> Sgeo: Yeah, and Xenon is /mostly/ boring.
06:09:00 <Gregor> Just less so than the ones before it :P
06:09:26 <Sgeo> Well, when do they stop being 100% boring?
06:09:27 <elliott> It appears that it doesn't like the BIOS at all for some reason.
06:10:01 <Gregor> Sgeo: None of them are 100% boring. Even helium can be made to react, just takes a lot of energy.
06:11:44 <Sgeo> When do they start making stable compounds?
06:12:52 <Gregor> I thought we were talking about noble gases here.
06:13:05 <elliott> hmm, how do I tell qemu to use pcbios, not vgabios?
06:13:20 <Sgeo> "Helium can form unstable compounds, known as excimers, with tungsten, iodine, fluorine, sulfur and phosphorus when it is subjected to an electric glow discharge, to electron bombardment, or else is a plasma for another reason. The molecular compounds HeNe, HgHe10, and WHe2, and the molecular ions He
06:13:27 <Sgeo> , HeH+, and HeD+ have been created this way.[59]"
06:14:11 <Gregor> I'm just wondering why you're defining unboringness as stable compounds :P
06:14:14 <Gregor> But I think that would be argon.
06:15:23 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/0fCyV.png
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06:19:10 <Sgeo> Solid helium exists?
06:19:58 <pikhq> Sgeo: Just a matter of making it cold enough.
06:20:25 <Sgeo> "Helium can form unstable compounds, known as excimers, with tungsten, iodine, fluorine, sulfur and phosphorus when it is subjected to an electric glow discharge, to electron bombardment, or else is a plasma for another reason. The molecular compounds HeNe, HgHe10, and WHe2, and the molecular ions He
06:20:30 <Sgeo> , HeH+, and HeD+ have been created this way.[59]"
06:20:40 <elliott> pikhq: HAHA I NOW HAVE THE DEVELOPMENT TOOLS TOO
06:20:43 <Sgeo> What I meant to paste was He tried to solidify it by further reducing the temperature but failed because helium does not have a triple point temperature at which the solid, liquid, and gas phases are at equilibrium. Onnes' student Willem Hendrik Keesom was eventually able to solidify 1 cm3 of helium in 1926.[17]
06:20:49 <elliott> Gregor: So you've downloaded it, right? :P
06:22:09 <pikhq> Sgeo: Seems that it'll solidify at 2.5MPa and 0.95K.
06:22:14 <elliott> pikhq: I am not sure qemu 0.9.0 works with SDL 1.2.
06:22:25 <Sgeo> Oh, right, pressure is another variable
06:22:47 <pikhq> And boil at 4.22K at standard pressure...
06:24:07 <pikhq> "Boiling point: 4.22K" according to Wikipedia...
06:25:48 <Sgeo> "Helium is the least reactive noble gas after neon and thus the second least reactive of all elements"
06:25:53 <Sgeo> _second_ least?
06:26:00 <elliott> pikhq: You are talking like Ilari...
06:26:42 * elliott looks for pxe-ne2k_pci.bin
06:26:50 <elliott> Oh wait, I don't want that.
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06:28:28 <Sgeo> "a balloon filled with neon will rise in air, albeit more slowly than a helium balloon."
06:28:37 <Sgeo> So stop using precious helium for balloons!
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06:29:14 <pikhq> Sgeo: Citation on "second least reactive"?
06:29:46 <Sgeo> Lewars, Errol G. (2008). Modelling Marvels . Springer. pp. 7071. ISBN 1402069723.
06:30:00 <Sgeo> http://books.google.com/books?id=IoFzgBSSCwEC&pg=PA70&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
06:30:10 <elliott> pikhq: Got a qemu 0.9.0 bios? :P
06:31:00 <elliott> It seems that when I do ctrl+alt+1 from the QEMU console it just... freezes the display at whatever it was and nothing shows up.
06:31:20 <Sgeo> It seems... uncertain
06:31:28 <pikhq> Sgeo: That book suggests that neon is less reactive, and neon is also a noble gas.
06:32:01 <elliott> pikhq: That book suggests FIX MY QEMU
06:32:11 <augur> anyone interested in making book scanner?
06:32:29 <Sgeo> Did elliott just do a null correct?
06:32:30 <elliott> augur: Anyone interested in fixing my QEMU?
06:32:41 <elliott> Sgeo: "QEMU " -> "QEMU ;_;"
06:32:54 <elliott> augur: I'll scan YOUR book.
06:33:02 <Sgeo> Ah, thought the tears were in relation to having to make the correction
06:34:09 <elliott> augur: YEAH CONSIDER YOUR BOOK SCANNED
06:37:38 <elliott> I will pay anyone who creates a 1366x768 series of PNGs or animated GIF or anything that consists of, first, a bunch of N-pixel-blackness separated straight vertical white lines, that then, on the next frame, become slightly diagonal, and then on the next moreso, etc., until they are horizontal, and then they start going \-ways (so | / -- \, except a lot smoother) and continue going around until they are all straight again endless money
06:37:44 <elliott> Also, this should be rather fast.
06:38:05 <elliott> Obviously as they rotate to horizontal more should appear on the screen to keep the fill.
06:38:12 <Sgeo> Maybe tomorrow or something
06:38:20 <elliott> (It would suffice to create a huge one that doesn't have that, and then crop it in the centre.)
06:38:23 <Sgeo> Then agian, I'd have to relearn PIL
06:38:34 <elliott> I might end up just doing it myself :P
06:38:37 <Sgeo> And I have so much homework
06:38:41 <elliott> The idea is to set it as your background and/or screensaver.
06:39:16 * Sgeo remembers doing image manipulation for that.. Python Challenge thingy
06:39:36 * Sgeo wonders if Factor is decent at image manipulation
06:40:13 <elliott> coppro: http://www.reddit.com/user/Related_Magic_Card
06:40:40 <coppro> elliott: I don't get it
06:40:55 <elliott> coppro: Click "context" on the comments :P
06:49:21 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/dExFq.jpg
06:50:29 <coppro> odds the border officers just wanted to watch porn?
06:52:11 <elliott> coppro: Greatest job ever? :P
07:08:19 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge/index.php
07:08:38 <elliott> # (Protection log); 07:15 . . Ais523 (Talk | contribs) (protected "Talk:Befunge/index.php": spambot title [edit=sysop:move=sysop])
07:08:38 <elliott> # (diff) (hist) . . N Talk:Befunge/index.php; 07:15 . . (+15) . . Ais523 (Talk | contribs) (salt; spambot title, no real legitimate reason to use this unless someone invents a very weirdly named esolang)
07:08:44 <elliott> WHOOPS LOOKS LIKE SOMEONE DID
07:10:48 <Sgeo> So I guess it wasn't actually protected against creation? Or, worse, elliott is an admin?
07:11:08 <elliott> But I should totally become an admin now. Mwahahaha.
07:11:44 <Sgeo> "And taking a look at the long range forecast, continued snow, darkness, and extreme cold. This is Howard Handupme, goodnight"
07:11:48 <Sgeo> That seems.. whoops
07:11:58 <Sgeo> "This page has been protected against creation and cannot be created without administrator help; "
07:12:26 <Sgeo> Next I'll accidentally paste porn
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07:14:21 <Sgeo> Oh, the talk page has been protected
07:14:28 <Sgeo> Why TF would spammers attack a talk page/
07:14:44 <elliott> And it must now be deprotected, to allow for discussion on my language :P
07:20:18 <elliott> I've also added CLC's rename language: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Rename
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07:58:14 <elliott> Behold my SNAZZY NEW USERPAGE http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird
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16:52:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Next point of order: test Debian for GPU horribleness.
16:52:14 -!- Sgeo has joined.
16:56:38 <coppro> I despise stateful webapps
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17:02:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: By the way, the system will become a little less stable after the release of squeeze.
17:02:09 <elliott> It's still perfectly stable, just not as unchanging.
17:02:53 <elliott> (A few months before the next Debian release, testing goes into a total freeze and stops getting updates (well, apart from security updates and the like). Then, a few months later, it's released as the next Debian. After that, testing thaws and it can be updated regularly again, by packages trickling in from unstable after being tested.)
17:03:58 <elliott> (Okay, it technically gets updates that are just bug fixes. But no new features or anything.)
17:07:49 <Sgeo> elliott did go to sleep at some point, right?
17:08:02 <elliott> I ... think so. I still don't understand my own sleep schedule.
17:09:58 <pikhq> Testing is generally incredibly stable.
17:10:22 <pikhq> Just less so than Stable, which only makes notable changes every year or two.
17:11:13 <elliott> pikhq: Oldstable makes changes with the same frequency!
17:11:33 <elliott> pikhq: Unfortunately, right now oldstable doesn't exist :P
17:11:45 <elliott> (They decided to stop offering security updates for etch in January.)
17:11:59 <elliott> http://www.debian.org/News/2010/20100121
17:12:09 <elliott> pikhq: I think it was part of their "okay, seriously, we need to start updating stable more often" plan.
17:12:29 <elliott> pikhq: But that's shorter than Ubuntu Long Term Support, how PATHETIC! :P
17:12:50 <elliott> "The security team tries to support a stable distribution for about one year after the next stable distribution has been released, except when another stable distribution is released within this year. It is not possible to support three distributions; supporting two simultaneously is already difficult enough."
17:12:56 <elliott> Two stable Debians in a year.
17:13:33 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm?
17:13:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Because it ships the entire, default GNOME by default, plus Debian desktop environment extras.
17:14:02 <elliott> The Debian "gnome" package consists of all the packages that make up GNOME, plus Debian's extras.
17:14:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://packages.debian.org/testing/gnome/gnome
17:14:55 <Phantom_Hoover> And Iceweasel is so named because Mozilla is totalitarian about the name "Firefox", yes?
17:14:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So if you see those gnome-* packages, those, plus a few of the dependencies there, make up official GNOME; the rest are Debian inclusions.
17:15:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Since Debian modify even one byte of Firefox, it must be called something else.
17:15:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (It also must use a different logo, despite the logo now being Free as of recently, because it is trademarked.)
17:15:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought it was that you could only call it "Firefox" if your modifications fell within certain conditions?
17:15:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Before you ask, Ubuntu get around it because Canonical are corporatist dickwads who have enough money to make deals. :)
17:16:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No. Any modification must not be called Firefox, as far as I am aware after looking into this.
17:16:28 -!- yorick has joined.
17:16:45 <Phantom_Hoover> [[For the free software company, see Canonical Ltd..]] — WP
17:18:09 <pikhq> elliott: If distributed.
17:18:17 <pikhq> elliott: Which is how Gentoo gets away with it.
17:18:30 <elliott> Well, yeah; you can compile whatever you want.
17:18:50 <Sgeo> Are you saying that distributing source is differentn from distributing binaries?
17:18:56 <elliott> Sgeo: IF YOU DO NOT IMMEDIATELY DISCONTINUE YOUR USE OR AT LEAST OVERUSE OF "WAIT WHAT" I REFUSE TO RESPOND TO ANY MORE QUESTIONS AS YOU ARE DILUTING THE TERM
17:18:59 <pikhq> Sgeo: Trademark law is a bitch.
17:19:16 <pikhq> Sgeo: Also, Gentoo doesn't distribute modified source.
17:19:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: They distribute patches and the original source, and you *may* apply those patches and get a binary that would be illegal to share with anyone.
17:19:53 <elliott> "Doctors at the Swedish Medical Center in Seattle wanted to tweet the surgery in order to raise awareness about a new, less invasive method of removing tumors."
17:20:06 <pikhq> Sgeo: Or you can tell Gentoo to just turn on the configuration flag that'll make it do a legal release.
17:20:18 <elliott> "We could have saved your husband as the unexpected complication came up, but we were too busy TWEETING IT."
17:20:29 <Sgeo> Well, I'd be ok with it if it was someone not actually doing the surgery, but just watching, who was tweeting
17:20:45 <pikhq> (using the Firefox logo minus the actual fox, and using the code name instead of Firefox for the name of the browser. "firefox" will still execute it.)
17:21:05 <Sgeo> Well, presumably the watcher would be a doctor, and if a complication came up, they should get involved, so
17:21:59 <pikhq> So, kinda like this, except without the bomb fuse: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Minefield_about.png
17:22:47 <Sgeo> So what's the bomb fuse doing in the picture?
17:23:26 <pikhq> That's a trunk build.
17:23:32 <pikhq> Trunk builds might blow up.
17:24:08 <Sgeo> What's the Firefox logo for that?
17:24:21 <Sgeo> As opposed to the "clean and legal to modify and redistribute" logo
17:25:54 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, ah, that's why Shiretoko carefully avoided the term "Firefox".
17:27:12 <Sgeo> If Shiretoko is a Mozilla Foundation project, why do they need to avoid saying "Firefox"?
17:27:26 <Phantom_Hoover> And, inexplicably, my backlight controls have completely ceased to function.
17:27:32 <Sgeo> I think I get it now
17:27:40 <Sgeo> Trunk builds of Firefox are not called Firefox?
17:27:59 <pikhq> Only official releases with the Mozilla Foundation approval.
17:28:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, back then I was using Ubuntu's version of it before it had replace Firefox 3.0, so I assume they'd modified it
17:28:24 <Sgeo> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/shiretoko/ in Chrome thinks I'm running an early version of Shiretoko
17:31:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Forbidding it outright is stupid, but there's almost certainly a way of getting arbitrary modifications in with it.
17:31:25 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Request approval.
17:34:12 <pikhq> For any modifications at all.
17:34:59 * Sgeo bows to his strict Firefox masters
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17:49:33 <elliott> So, uh, Apple are discontinuing Xserves. I wonder why...?
17:49:50 <elliott> "Apple has put together a "transition guide," advising that users switch over to the Mac Pro or ... the Mac mini"
18:01:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Fun fact: Debian stills offers the latest kernel compiled for the 486. You know, in case you don't have an i686 or better, i.e. Pentium Pro or newer, i.e. any processor since November 1995.
18:01:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:02:47 <elliott> I feel so stupid for getting rid of that old box; it would have ran BSD or Linux or something.
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18:04:56 <nooga> i've made a pretty picture
18:04:59 <nooga> http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7735/budda.png
18:05:30 <Slereah_> No you didn't, that is a fractal :V
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18:06:41 <elliott> nooga: huh, it seems like a photo somehow or something.
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18:20:13 <Sgeo> Do iPhones dream of walled-in electric sheep?
18:21:13 * Sgeo accidentally kick-evades
18:22:05 * Sgeo wonders if there are people who'd fall for that
18:44:31 <pikhq> God, Debian used to be *ridiculously* slow to update.
18:44:58 <pikhq> Their last release without Linux 2.2 was made in 2005.
18:45:58 <pikhq> It was entirely possible for a Debian user to upgrade from Linux 2.2 to Linux 2.6, entirely skipping 2.4.
18:50:14 <Gregor> This also means people could skip right over devfs and to udev.
18:50:23 <Gregor> So, y'know, silver lining or something?
18:51:14 <Gregor> elliott: I especially love that you fake-opped the wrong nick.
18:51:30 <elliott> Gregor: ehird is, uh, the, uh
18:51:43 * elliott has kicked Gregor (FUCK YOU)
19:01:15 <Sgeo> It's scary that I didn't notice
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19:03:25 * Phantom_Hoover realises the Debian releases are named after Toy Story characters.
19:03:54 * Sgeo experiments on Phantom_Hoover
19:04:04 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: You just now realised it?
19:04:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And unstable is called sid for a reason...
19:04:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It breaks shit.
19:05:01 <Sgeo> Sid Dabster </not-toy-story>
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19:46:49 <elliott> Anyone feel like fixing the snowman on http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird? :P
19:47:29 <elliott> pikhq: IT IS except the snowman is too high.
19:47:36 <elliott> I assume you mean my page.
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19:47:40 <pikhq> The UN Human Rights Council is currently reviewing the US's human rights record.
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20:06:06 <elliott> ERROR: wget failed to download http://people.debian.org/~bartm/flashplugin-nonfree/fp10.sha512.amd64.pgp.asc
20:06:06 <elliott> More information might be available at:
20:06:06 <elliott> http://wiki.debian.org/FlashPlayer
20:06:31 <elliott> The package in unstable http://packages.debian.org/sid/flashplugin-nonfree is suitable for Lenny (stable) and Squeeze (testing).
20:06:35 <elliott> "On amd64 the 64 bit preview release 10.2.161.23 is installed."
20:11:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, what was the name of that Swedish kernel.org mirror?
20:11:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You can get it in Software Sources.
20:11:27 <elliott> No need to edit sources.list directly.
20:11:38 <elliott> (which I'd tend to avoid out of fear anyway).
20:11:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, that selects a crappy one.
20:11:59 <elliott> Make sure you select http, not ftp.
20:12:12 <elliott> The last one in SE, in fact.
20:15:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I didn't determine it's *the* fastest, but I've tried various servers in my time and Swedish ones are the fastest.
20:15:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And kernel.org servers have a phat pipe and are also really reliable, of course.
20:15:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Who knows? Probably.
20:16:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It maxes out my connection, at least.
20:18:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uh, Orange. I heavily recommend against them.
20:18:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And heavily endorse http://www.bogons.net/.
20:18:33 <elliott> Strongly, I guess, not heavily. Whatever.
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20:22:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Well, uh, yes, can't get cable here. And all the cable ISPs suck major ass.
20:22:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:23:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Besides, ADSL2+++++++++++++ gets all 24 megs and whatnot!
20:23:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: And if you want more than that, get fibre optic, you lazy bum.
20:23:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: (Note: Bogons' ADSL2+ service is hideously expensive.)
20:23:31 <elliott> Since it's part of the business services.
20:24:01 <Phantom_Hoover_> Wait, maybe I can just tunnel under the street for a short distance.
20:26:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: It is unlikely that there is fibre optic on your street. :P
20:29:01 <Vorpal> elliott, did you buy minecraft?
20:29:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Not yet! I'm not sure Java will like it.
20:29:20 <elliott> Vorpal: As soon as I verify that it will I will.
20:29:57 <Vorpal> elliott, not like it in what way?
20:30:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Stuttery audio, graphics performance.
20:30:18 <elliott> (I had to set the fog to the second-nearest setting in Classic to get acceptable performance.)
20:30:33 <elliott> Being an applet is probably partly to blame, and I imagine Alpha's code is more solid, but still.
20:31:05 <coppro> elliott: so there was this news story i wanted you to complain about but you werent here so you couldnt then i forgot what the news story was
20:31:33 <elliott> coppro: and the sky the sky it is made of red hot lava and it fell down from the sky onto the floor and we all slept but it was really actually dying not sleeping because the lava burned us to death
20:31:53 <Phantom_Hoover_> Further investigation implies that I might actually have a fiber-optic cable under my street.
20:32:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
20:32:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: You get to choose between: (1) BT (2) Virgin Media. Well, at least if the situation is the same as in England.
20:32:23 <Vorpal> elliott, well... I found an old version of alpha at a certain bay (and a link to the linux version in a comment), on my desktop it works as long as I set "fast graphics". But that is nvidia and emu10k...
20:32:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Probably the two worst ISPs.
20:32:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You really don't want to be on Virgin.
20:33:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: For instance, their CEO has called net neutrality "a load of bollocks".
20:33:25 <elliott> "and he's promised to put any website or service that won't pay Virgin a premium to reach its customers into the "Internet bus lane."" (-- boing boing, but still)
20:33:27 <coppro> so have most isps all they want is monies
20:33:27 <Vorpal> elliott, it does NOT work well on the pentium-m dell with pre-HD audio. Well sound works fine. But 3-5 FPS is not so fun
20:33:38 <elliott> also coppro has lost his shift key
20:33:48 <coppro> no i just decided punctuation is bad today
20:33:56 <coppro> i need to save it all for the code party later
20:33:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, I'll try it out. That... Warzone somethingsomething game worked smoothly at full resolution; Minecraft can't be more complex than that, right?!>?!?!!
20:34:05 <elliott> coppro: capitals arent punctuation
20:34:07 <coppro> i am disappointed i have to use a slash to change windows
20:34:36 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, like I said, I have absolutely no say in the matter.
20:35:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh yeah, and they tested Phorm without telling anyone.
20:35:35 <Vorpal> elliott, well who knows. Want the direct link to the linux one linked?
20:35:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Sure, I was about to search but sure :P
20:36:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and if you're not quite hardcore enough for Bogons I recommend BE.
20:37:06 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that, given a COBOL program that reads a file, you can say things about the file's structure that you can't with most languages
20:37:38 <coppro> like it is sufficiently simple to be read by a cobol program maybe
20:37:52 <elliott> coppro: you are cooler without caps
20:38:02 <pikhq> Hmm. To try and get a second computer running or not...
20:38:09 <coppro> im also being more banjooie today
20:38:18 <coppro> bonus points for working out what it means
20:38:19 <Sgeo> COBOL has to predeclare the structure of files, right?
20:38:36 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, it might be a good language to learn for career-ness
20:38:48 <Sgeo> And it seems interesting
20:38:55 <elliott> Sgeo: YOU ARE A FUCKING MORON
20:39:10 <Sgeo> I didn't say "good", did I?
20:39:14 <Sgeo> Just.. interesting
20:39:25 <elliott> Sgeo: I HOPE SPIKES RAPE YOUR BEING
20:39:28 <Sgeo> Places stil use COBOL, don't they?
20:39:35 <elliott> Sgeo: Places still use *horrible, horrible* COBOL.
20:39:44 <Phantom_Hoover> AND OF COURSE IT DENIES THE EXISTENCE OF THE LOWER-CASE LETTER.
20:39:58 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I thought it was case-insensitive
20:40:36 <coppro> SPIKES SPIKES SPIKES OH GOD THE SPIKES
20:40:42 <Sgeo> As a convention?
20:42:18 <elliott> coppro: what are the flatulences
20:42:36 <elliott> coppro: SO HOW'Z MY ARTICLE DOING
20:47:20 <pikhq> Sgeo: NOT AS A CONVENTION. IT PREDATES LOWER-CASE LETTERS.
20:48:09 <Sgeo> There's a 2002 standard
20:48:19 <Sgeo> Should I bother with it, or does it ruin the historicalness
20:54:05 <pikhq> Sgeo: COBOL IS ONLY WORTH LEARNING IF YOU WANT TO KEEP ABSURDLY OLD SYSTEMS RUNNING.
20:54:14 <pikhq> SGEO: AKA, YOU WISH TO NO LONGER HAVE A SOUL.
20:54:29 <Sgeo> Some young people have to learn COBOL eventually
20:54:45 <Sgeo> *SOME YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE TO LEARN COBOL EVENTUALLY
20:55:59 <nooga> 18:05 < Phantom_Hoover_> nooga, what's the fractal?
20:56:16 <nooga> but rendered in abuddhabrot way
20:56:42 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhabrot
20:56:58 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, WHY IS COBOL IN ENGLISH, NOT LATIN, IF IT PREDATES LOWER-CASE?
20:57:13 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: IT PREDATES ENCODING OF LOWER-CASE ON COMPUTERS.
20:57:21 <nooga> i'm attempting to render it using a little cluster that i've built
20:57:32 <Sgeo> (THE DESIGNERS COULD NOT THINK OF A CLEVER LEGEND OF ZELDA HINT)
20:57:39 <elliott> nooga: can I use your cluster for shit
20:58:01 <nooga> no, because macines belong to my university
20:58:03 <pikhq> Sgeo: If young people don't learn COBOL, then it will finally die.
20:58:22 <Sgeo> pikhq, what about all the code that needs to be maintained
20:58:28 <nooga> so nobody can access it from the outside
20:58:30 <Sgeo> Are those businesses supposed to just die?
20:58:39 <elliott> Sgeo is the worst person in the world
20:58:41 <Sgeo> Or, at least, have business logic transferred to a different language
20:58:46 <nooga> even i have to go to the uni to use it
20:58:50 <Sgeo> Someone needs to be able to read it, at least
20:58:56 <pikhq> Sgeo: Do these businesses still use 50 year old everything else?
20:59:21 <Sgeo> pikhq, imagine IE 6 in 50 years
20:59:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: Some things become obsolete. Businesses should deal with it.
20:59:38 <pikhq> Sgeo: And COBOL was obsolete 30 years ago.
20:59:42 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, so the algorithm is to increment a pixel based on how many paths that end in the set go through it?
21:00:14 <Sgeo> Why, exactly, is there a 2002 standard? Not claiming COBOL isn't obsolete, I'm just curious
21:00:28 <nooga> and the color is obtained by rendering with different bailout values separately for R,G and B and mixing the channels
21:00:44 <pikhq> Sgeo: Because some morons felt like trying to make it not obsolete by adding the latest buzzwords.
21:01:10 <nooga> it's pretty but i doubt it has some interesting properties
21:01:13 <pikhq> It supports XML and OOP.
21:03:10 <pikhq> Also, the COBOL spec broke backwards compatibility with what was used for really old systems back in '85...
21:03:35 <pikhq> Meaning that you would need to rewrite things just to use a modern COBOL implementation.
21:03:48 <pikhq> At which point you might as well use a better language, like any language newer than it.
21:03:51 <nooga> if you've known COBOL in the old years
21:04:02 <nooga> you were like a god
21:04:29 <pikhq> I mean, dear God the fucking language was designed by Grace Hopper. That's fucking *old*.
21:04:44 <Sgeo> Any modern COBOL implementations use a pre-85 spec?
21:04:57 <pikhq> (you may know Grace Hopper for inventing the programming language.)
21:05:38 <Sgeo> Hmm, Xmarks is back?
21:06:02 <pikhq> Sgeo: Not really, but IBM mainframes retain binary compatibility.
21:06:48 <Sgeo> How much do mainframes cost these days? I mean, they're obsoleteish, right? My notebook's much more powerful? So surely, they're cheap?
21:06:59 <pikhq> They still make them.
21:07:41 <Sgeo> Ok, but how much do they cost?
21:08:35 <pikhq> They can run several thousand Linux VMs at once.
21:09:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, please stop doing such awful things to interrogative statements.
21:10:13 <Sgeo> Next, you'll want me to stop verbing nouns?
21:13:21 <pikhq> Sgeo: Oh, and if you want to run *really* old mainframe programs, you could reasonably do it for no cost. Some of the older versions of the OS for them are public domain or free of charge.
21:13:47 <pikhq> And some crazy bastards wrote an emulator.
21:14:04 <Sgeo> Was about to ask.. well, I wasn't, because it sounded like a stupid question
21:15:27 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> How much do mainframes cost these days? I mean, they're obsoleteish, right? My notebook's much more powerful? So surely, they're cheap?
21:15:41 <elliott> <Sgeo> Was about to ask.. well, I wasn't, because it sounded like a stupid question
21:15:44 <elliott> Since when does that stop you?
21:15:55 <HackEgo> 253|<Sgeo> How much do mainframes cost these days? I mean, they're obsoleteish, right? My notebook's much more powerful? So surely, they're cheap?
21:16:38 <Sgeo> How much would a 70s era mainframe cost today?
21:16:39 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLOW-MATIC
21:17:00 <Sgeo> "Defining Files in advance, and separating into INPUT and OUTPUT files."
21:17:10 <Sgeo> I still think that that's arguably a nice feature of COBOL
21:17:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: Probably quite a lot, due to being a museum piece.
21:18:14 <Sgeo> Ok, how much would one of the early widespread-use mainframes cost today/
21:21:43 <Sgeo> In terms of purchasing a physical machine, although sure, net power too
21:21:50 <pikhq> Uh, seems a few thousand dollars.
21:22:11 <pikhq> There really weren't that many of them made, y'know.
21:22:33 <Sgeo> When were there many mainframes being made?
21:22:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, in terms of net power, all of £0.00 (that's $0.00).
21:22:40 <elliott> When did the Pope shit in the woods?
21:22:45 <elliott> When did a bear convert to Catholicism?
21:22:53 <elliott> When did Sgeo stop asking incessant questions without Googling first?
21:23:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I believe that £0.00 = $79.44.
21:23:12 <pikhq> At about the same time that it seemed like a good idea to scrap the damned things for their metal when replaced.
21:24:12 <pikhq> Seems a system 390 is going to be the oldest machine you can find working. And that's a few thousand bucks.
21:26:39 <pikhq> The system 390s are also going to be the oldest machines that you could actually get working without creating a well air-conditioned room and having an electrician come in to install a three-phase power hookup.
21:30:21 * Sgeo looks up specs
21:30:40 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_ESA/390 ?
21:30:46 <Sgeo> That says 1990
21:33:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, get an emulator. It'll run way faster and be much easier.
21:33:47 <Sgeo> I'm not allowed to be curious about old machines?
21:34:08 <Sgeo> Althogh yeah, I was fantasizing about buying something, but I have many fantasizes
21:34:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Please, for everyone's sanity, go no further down that road.
21:36:29 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, go no further down the road of describing my fantasies?
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21:51:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, I found a paper describing CAs on spherical topologies.
21:52:01 <pikhq> Sgeo: Grab Hercules and install Debian on it.
21:52:37 <pikhq> That's the emulator.
21:52:49 <nooga> Sgeo i tried to buy Odra
21:53:12 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odra_(computer)
21:53:27 <nooga> Odra 1305 with 2 processors and stuff
21:53:44 <nooga> the last one was decommisioned in June this year
21:54:11 <nooga> they wanted to get rid of it and probably throw it away
21:54:46 <Sgeo> I thought someone said 360
21:54:54 <Sgeo> Hercules says 390
21:55:09 <elliott> pikhq: New hobby: Emulators + Debian.
21:55:10 <Sgeo> The 390 is another thing it can emulate.. I think
21:55:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I am steadily convincing myself that an invasion is ongoing outside my house.
21:56:30 <nooga> z/Linux should be working fine
21:57:10 * elliott looks for the list of old debian releases
21:57:18 <elliott> pikhq: Apparently buzz is not nearly the oldest Debian.
21:57:25 <elliott> So I wonder if that's the first one to use Toy Story release names?
21:58:16 <elliott> "starting at version 1.1, debian releases have been named after a character in the movie Toy Story, a trend which continues to the present"
21:58:49 <elliott> Apparently there are older releases.
22:00:51 <elliott> I think we should email oerjan.
22:01:10 <pikhq> Sgeo: Hercules emulates a Series z mainframe.
22:01:42 <pikhq> Sgeo: Which is of course compatible all the way back to System/360.
22:04:23 <elliott> Someone ought to fix http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird :P
22:05:11 <Gregor> I vote no so many times.
22:05:55 <elliott> Gregor: You just don't appreciate the AWESOME.
22:06:13 <elliott> All it needs is a spacing fix for the snowman!
22:06:40 <elliott> Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for further information about the cause of this error. The error that the other server returned was: 554 554 <oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no>: Recipient address rejected: User account has expired (state 14).
22:09:38 <Sgeo> What's the recipient domain?
22:10:04 <elliott> Sgeo: A server -- I think the computer science club -- of his (ex-)university.
22:12:09 <Sgeo> Do we know what causes accounts to expire on that server?
22:12:22 <elliott> No. He got his Ph.D. many years ago, so it's not that he's left or anything.
22:12:40 <Sgeo> We could email someone there to ask
22:12:42 <elliott> I will see if I can email NVG.
22:15:40 <elliott> I've sent an email to their support.
22:19:30 <olsner> elliott: you have oerjan's email?
22:20:00 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/%C3%98rjan_Johansen -> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ (which I knew) -> http://oerjan.nvg.org/ -> oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no
22:20:06 <elliott> It is, as I said, expired.
22:20:34 <elliott> http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://nvg.org/index.php%3Flink%3Domnvg%26sublink%3Dkontakt&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhjR_3qM6CRengj-UdptFmksQE5RVQ I don't know if support@nvg.ntnu.no was the right one to pick out of all those emails (I only saw support and drift on the other page I got it from), but I'm sure they can forward it on if required.
22:22:06 <olsner> ooh, goodbye horses is a really nice song
22:22:16 <olsner> (from silence of the lambs)
22:22:37 <olsner> hehe, and 'lambs' almost became 'lambdas' there
22:25:28 <olsner> my student e-mail is also expired since a couple of years back
22:25:47 <elliott> olsner: still. he used it up to present i think
22:27:47 <olsner> but you only say that because you're YOOOOUUUNG :P
22:29:32 <elliott> anyway you're uhh, i guessed it right before
22:29:37 <elliott> SEE HE'S EVEN OLDER THAN YOU
22:29:44 <elliott> My logic, it is infallible.
22:30:20 <elliott> olsner: SEE EVEN YOU AGREE NOW
22:30:33 <olsner> yeah, that is much too old for comfort
22:30:45 <elliott> if you didn't say he was old you'd become that old yourself
22:30:53 <elliott> olsner: we don't know cpressey's age for sure :P
22:31:35 <olsner> isn't that in public records somewhere?
22:31:37 <elliott> olsner: we know he was in his teens in the 80s and ran some BBSes in... I think he gave some year range... when he was 16 and I'm starting to realise that a good memory ends up making you look like a stalker
22:31:55 <olsner> at least in sweden you can look up people's birth dates from names
22:32:15 <elliott> well he's canadian i think
22:32:34 <olsner> canada is in america, duh
22:32:53 <Sgeo> elliott is a stalker?
22:33:01 * Sgeo attempts to erase his name from elliott's memory
22:33:17 <elliott> olsner: but not in the united states of :P
22:34:45 * olsner is suddenly struck by the feeling of having something extremely relevant to say
22:34:51 <olsner> can't remember what though :/
22:36:01 <pikhq> elliott: So, I've discovered something.
22:36:11 <olsner> starch and cheese: good combination
22:36:14 <pikhq> elliott: The US release of Monty Python's Flying Circus had *really* shitty video quality.
22:36:30 <elliott> Your face has really shitty video quality.
22:36:42 <pikhq> It's like they used a VHS tape for the source material or something.
22:36:47 <olsner> elliott: or mac-n-cheese
22:37:12 <pikhq> elliott: PAL release looks quite a bit better.
22:41:42 <pikhq> elliott: What's especially "fun" is that the US release actually did a 25i->30i conversion for portions that were originally done 24p. Really. It's 24p->25i->30i converted.
22:51:24 <pikhq> Huh. Wikipedia romanises スーパー・ヴィエイチエス as Sūpāvu~ieichiesu. Which is pronounced as something like "Sūpā vi eichi esu". Non-standard kana seems to really fuck up their ideas of romanisation.
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22:57:41 <pikhq> (I'd romanise it as sûhą̂ ùīeitiesu, and god was it a pain trying to just get the appropriate combining character for that)
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23:00:37 <olsner> pikhq: eh, but 'h' in suha? or did you intend some of the combining characters to indicate the plosive variant?
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23:01:45 <pikhq> olsner: The ogonek or cedilla indicates the plosive variant.
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23:02:52 <pikhq> Yes, the dakuten and handakuten in my romanisation go on the vowel.
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23:03:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: oerjan missing; PANIC | *cringe* record: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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23:03:56 <pikhq> Thus allowing it to work just the same when it's applied to a consonantless kana in a non-standard usage of kana.
23:03:56 <olsner> and sebbu is running in circles, clearly devoted to the panic in the topic
23:04:23 <olsner> oh, can you have han/dakuten on such kana?
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23:04:31 <olsner> how does that get pronounced?
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23:04:54 <pikhq> ヴ is usually used to indicate "V" in transcriptions.
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23:05:43 <pikhq> ヴァヴィヴヴェヴォ for the "va vi vu ve vo" morae.
23:05:44 <olsner> hmm, I seem to be missing the fonts
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23:06:01 <olsner> probably due to elliott telling me to uninstall my fonts because there were better fonts
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23:06:56 <pikhq> It also handles the kana usage in non-Japanese languages...
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23:07:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: uh, quitting
23:07:37 <elliott> before that just saying something, nothing pertinent
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23:07:54 <elliott> 10.10.21:20:18:59 <oerjan> sheesh, fission does not release energy for elements < iron, pikhq
23:07:54 <elliott> 10.10.21:20:25:24 <oerjan> well more or less.
23:07:54 <elliott> 10.10.21:20:26:36 <oerjan> although the "helium mines" _was_ a joke
23:07:54 <elliott> 10.10.21:20:46:20 <oerjan> catseye: which might be why it's wrong
23:08:06 <elliott> if his email account is gone
23:08:08 <elliott> then his shell account will be too
23:08:11 <elliott> and that's how he accessed irc
23:08:15 <olsner> he ran off trying to set up a helium mine?
23:08:16 <elliott> it could just be a server thing
23:08:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: he came in on the 22nd too but just join and then quit
23:08:41 <elliott> just an hour and a bit apart
23:08:49 <elliott> 10.10.22:07:18:00 --- quit: oerjan (Quit: leaving)
23:08:49 <elliott> 10.10.23:14:15:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm surprised oerjan hasn't cracked down on them.
23:08:56 <elliott> you mentioned him first after that :P
23:09:18 <pikhq> For instance, "アイヌ・イタㇰ" can be romanised as "ainu itak̅u", but can't be encoded at all in any other romanisation scheme that I know of...
23:09:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, that explains why he hadn't cracked down on them.
23:09:31 <elliott> so it's been 15 days since he talked
23:09:57 <pikhq> (well, except for an Ainu-specific scheme based on pronunciation)
23:10:10 <pikhq> elliott: "ainu itak̅u" in my scheme.
23:10:25 <pikhq> "Ainu language" in Ainu.
23:11:35 <pikhq> (Ainu is a non-Japonic language, but happens to be native to the island of Hokkaidō, hence the kana orthography)
23:15:28 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: For the gojuuon (your standard kana chart), I use the "ordinary" romanisation.
23:17:00 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: A grave on the vowel is a dakuten (the voiced consonant diacritic). A cedilla or ogonek on the vowel is a handakuten (the plosive consonant diacritic). A macron on the start of the kana indicates that it's small. A circumflex on the vowel indicates that it's long.
23:17:28 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: ' is a shorthand for t̅u.
23:17:41 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Oh. One other thing. The moraic n is romanised as "nn".
23:18:14 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, damn you, I'm now trying to install Debian 5.something on Hercules.
23:18:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Good luck :P
23:18:36 <pikhq> So, basically, it's a highly pedantic encoding of kana.
23:18:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Try an older Debian.
23:19:04 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, if I could *get* the image, that would be a start.
23:19:25 <pikhq> elliott: Debian still supports System z.
23:19:30 <pikhq> elliott: To this day.
23:19:31 <elliott> What problem are you having?
23:19:34 <elliott> pikhq: The ports can bitrot sometimes.
23:19:51 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, not really.
23:19:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uhh, Debian is like 40 CDs.
23:20:18 <elliott> http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/5.0.6/s390/iso-cd/
23:20:24 <elliott> (lol @ kde and xfce/lxde CDs)
23:20:34 <pikhq> elliott: A package failing on a port in unstable prevents it from going to testing on *any* port.
23:21:00 <pikhq> elliott: Assuming, of course, the package is set to build for that.
23:21:24 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, but that doesn't mean the whole system will actually install and run properly or anything. :P
23:21:38 <olsner> I guess I'll just have to stop watching this shite and wait another year for episodes with contents again
23:21:52 <pikhq> elliott: Also, the System z port is actually used.
23:22:18 <pikhq> elliott: Thousands of VMs at once, hells yeah.
23:22:38 <olsner> elliott: yeah, I know...
23:24:31 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: naruto shippuuden
23:25:16 <elliott> I guessed just from the excessive filler :P
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23:25:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, hmm, which files do I actually download for Debian s390?
23:26:03 <elliott> [ ] debian-506-s390-CD-1.iso 05-Sep-2010 02:59 648M
23:26:03 <elliott> [ ] debian-506-s390-CD-2.iso 05-Sep-2010 02:59 638M
23:26:03 <elliott> [ ] debian-506-s390-CD-3.iso 05-Sep-2010 02:59 648M
23:26:04 <elliott> http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/5.0.6/s390/iso-cd/
23:26:09 <elliott> You don't need the update discs.
23:26:16 <elliott> Or the alternative desktop environments.
23:26:21 <olsner> I actually think it's good, but only if you skip the fillers because the fillers really suck
23:32:28 <elliott> I propose a project to create a portable, 8-bit MMU-less Unix clone.
23:32:40 <elliott> What Linux and NetBSD did for everything else, we shall do for the 80s!
23:33:09 <elliott> LUnix? Move over! 8-bit Atari? YOU'RE GONNA GET SOME FUCKIN' UNIX
23:35:56 <elliott> Clearly it should be written in (C--)--, aka C -= 2.
23:36:31 <elliott> Conveniently, C-= sort of looks like the Commodore logo.
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23:41:46 <zzo38> Now I write a program GF-Magick to use METAFONT with ImageMagick.
23:42:05 <zzo38> Do you like red and green show on television?
23:55:35 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:05:52 <nooga> MMU-less units are the best!
00:06:06 <coppro> zzo38: duct tape forever!
00:06:51 <elliott> nooga: hey what was that computer you built? 8086?
00:06:53 <coppro> code party is starting
00:06:57 <elliott> coppro: that was punctuation
00:07:01 <elliott> coppro: so was "-" in agora email you are BAD
00:07:02 <coppro> if you think i used punctuation you are committing treason
00:07:14 <coppro> no against the computer
00:07:31 <elliott> coppro: dude talk like this all the time, you're so much cooler
00:08:27 <coppro> your lack of treason is appreciated by the computer
00:08:42 <coppro> you might receive increased security clearance if you keep it up
00:08:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Now get the other two. :P
00:08:52 <elliott> coppro: punctuation is for FAGS
00:09:05 <coppro> elliott are they commie mutant traitor fags?
00:09:16 <elliott> coppro: yes. also, bedwetting
00:09:38 <coppro> elliott thank you for reporting the fags for treason you are now red security clearance
00:09:43 <coppro> and are now a troubleshooter
00:11:19 <elliott> nooga is ashamed of his creation
00:18:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: lawl, debian is still on firefox^Wiceweasel 3.5
00:22:09 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:30:40 -!- jcp has joined.
00:31:40 <pikhq> elliott: Why is testing on 3.5‽
00:31:56 <pikhq> Came out several months before the freeze.
00:33:06 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:35:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You may have more fun with the MIPS port; qemu's MIPS emulator works, although it was better in 0.10 or whatever.
00:35:19 <elliott> And besides, it's a Microsoft Jazz.
00:35:24 <elliott> How can you resist such a platform?
00:36:27 <elliott> pikhq: Do you support my portable 8-bit MMUless Unix project idea? Y/N
00:36:41 <pikhq> elliott: Y, but I don't want to work on it. :P
00:36:50 <elliott> pikhq: But 6502 asm! Everyone loves that!
00:37:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:37:33 <elliott> The S390 killed Phantom_Hoover.
00:38:37 <elliott> pikhq: And hey, we get to use our OWN LANGUAGE! Because the C compilers are all heavily machine-specific and the like. :P
00:42:16 <elliott> fizzie: Can VICE do a serial cable?
00:43:53 <elliott> Hmm, Lunix can do Atari too.
00:55:02 <Gregor> INSTALLING DEBIAN ON CHIPAD
00:58:00 <elliott> Gregor: (1) Why did you buy that (2) Can I have it
00:58:33 <Gregor> 1) A friend of mine bought it because he's an idiot, I bought it off of him for $50 because I'm an idiot, but only half as much an idiot as he is by pricE :P
00:58:40 <Gregor> 2) If you buy it for at least $25 + shipping :P
00:59:23 <elliott> Things you don't expect to see on a Commodore 64: "EXTRACTING CD.HTML (OK)"
01:01:41 <elliott> Gregor: I swear, the developer of LUnix, upon thinking "I need to document my Commodore 64 Unix clone", thought immediately after, "in HTML".
01:02:33 <elliott> nooga: It's 16-bit, you motherfucker. How can you pledge allegiance to the RETROMACHINES?
01:02:39 <elliott> Gregor: So is it... any good? :P
01:02:47 <elliott> Oh great, kernel panic. All that extraction for nothing.
01:02:54 <Gregor> elliott: The problems are all really stupid problems.
01:02:56 <elliott> I could have just put it into warp mode.
01:03:01 <Gregor> elliott: It's a bit slow, but quite usable if you don't do too much at once.
01:03:04 <elliott> Gregor: That ... says nothing.
01:03:10 <Gregor> elliott: I'm continuing :P
01:03:16 <elliott> Gregor: Is it resistive or capacitive?
01:03:27 <Gregor> Resistive, of course. We're talking about a $100 tablet here X-D
01:03:51 <elliott> Gregor: Please tell me it was a bitch to get Debian on.
01:04:02 <Gregor> LET ME FINISH TELLING ITS FLAWS GEEZE :P
01:04:04 <elliott> Gregor: You see, it was on the Ubisurfer, and I just don't want an inferior experience.
01:04:23 <Gregor> elliott: The real problems are: 1) The rotation sensor is pretty bad, it likes to hang in landscape mode, 2) IT HAS NO FREAKING OFF BUTTON X_X
01:04:39 <Gregor> I mean even a screen-off button.
01:04:40 <elliott> Gregor: It seems, uh, rather low resolution :P
01:04:49 <Gregor> elliott: You don't even know what device I'm referring to :P
01:04:56 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.maxconsole.net/showthread.php?152867-China-launches-Linux-based-Chi-pad
01:05:16 <elliott> "Calibrating delay loop.. 0.37 BogoMIPS"
01:05:31 <Gregor> elliott: 1) No, that one's more expensive and better than the one I have :P
01:05:49 <Gregor> elliott: 2) For 7-inch, 800xwhatever isn't too bad.
01:06:02 <elliott> Gregor: yours is *worse* than that? :D
01:06:57 <elliott> Also, how much is shipping to the UK from there?
01:07:02 <elliott> I'm actually considering buying it from you :P
01:07:14 <elliott> Because I, too, am an idiot.
01:07:23 <Gregor> I have no idea what the shipping would be. It has 1GB internal, I have a 2GB SD card I'd throw in :P
01:07:38 <Gregor> This screen is 800x480 btw.
01:07:52 <Gregor> Just a sec, I can link this actual device :P
01:08:20 * Sgeo should learn A*. What it is, how to use it
01:08:26 <Gregor> elliott: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.42071
01:08:45 <Gregor> elliott: Bizarrely, the feature list is all correct on that page.
01:09:48 <elliott> Gregor: Wow, this looks beyond awful :P
01:09:56 <Gregor> IT'S BEYOND AWESOME(ly awful)
01:10:04 <elliott> Gregor: Are you actually going to use it?
01:10:13 <elliott> If I don't cruelly snatch it away.
01:10:33 <Gregor> Well, I bought it months ago, and I've only used it to surf the web in bed and now to see if I can install Debian on it :P
01:10:36 <elliott> Gregor: I consider the device broken if it doesn't ship with whatever fucked up modified Android it came with, btw :P
01:10:54 <elliott> GET YOUR RESET ... USB ... STICK ...
01:10:57 <Gregor> Uhhh, of course it ships with Android ...
01:11:06 <elliott> Gregor: But you're putting Debian on.
01:11:17 <Gregor> I'm putting Debian on a chroot :P
01:11:27 <elliott> Gregor: Oh. That's what I did with the Ubisurfer!
01:11:43 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, I'll totally get my Ubisurfer repaired (I, uh, bricked it) and we can TRADE.
01:11:47 <Gregor> I have an identical Debian install on my phone :P
01:11:59 <elliott> Gregor: You give me your tablet, I give you a £129 (or in that region) ARM-based netbook! It has a KEYBOARD!
01:12:13 <elliott> Gregor: And it comes with the worst browser in the world and no don't argue.
01:12:35 <elliott> Gregor: It communicates, via GPRS, to one of their servers, which renders the page, with IE (yup, Windows-running IE farms), and sends back a compressed image of the result.
01:12:50 <elliott> Gregor: Input fields and links are handled with something like an olde-style image map, I would assume.
01:12:58 <elliott> Gregor: (It also comes with Firefox)
01:15:12 <zzo38> I read most of TeX: The Program, already.
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01:15:36 <Sgeo> elliott... why?
01:17:11 <elliott> Sgeo: Because Firefox only works on Wi-Fi and this is meant to be FREE FOREVER.
01:17:25 <elliott> Gregor: How can you pass up the chance to get a hold of it?
01:17:37 <Sgeo> Weird definition of polynomial time: It has an nth derivative that = 0
01:17:49 <Gregor> Woooh, Debian installed!
01:17:55 <Sgeo> Erm, "time for weird definition", not definition of "polynomial time"
01:17:58 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, and wanna know the OS? Android? NO
01:18:01 * Gregor installs ... hmm ... icewm?
01:18:10 <elliott> Gregor: It's what I like to call Bastebian.
01:18:39 <elliott> Gregor: They took Debian, installed their software, hacked it up in numerous to work with their hardware, gave it a /linuxrc-based bootloader, and then took out all of what makes Debian, Debian.
01:18:48 <elliott> Gregor: This includes dpkg.
01:19:16 <elliott> Gregor: What I am saying is: Dude, trade.
01:19:40 <Sgeo> Why would Firefox only work with Wifi
01:19:47 <Sgeo> That makes no sense whatsoever
01:19:58 <elliott> Sgeo: Because the only other thing it has his GPRS.
01:20:03 <elliott> Which is only to their IE-servers.
01:20:24 <Sgeo> ....why only to their IE-servers?
01:20:36 <Sgeo> Is it part of some weird agreement or something?
01:20:39 <elliott> Because that's how they wanted it.
01:21:01 <Sgeo> <elliott> STOP MAKING UP WORDS AND SOUNDING LIKE A CREATURE
01:24:01 <elliott> pikhq: Wow, Debian GNU/Hurd is about as old as apt.
01:24:09 <elliott> Gregor: You should install a tiling WM, just for the sheer insanity.
01:24:13 <elliott> Gregor: (Note: You may want a mouse-based tiling WM)
01:24:20 <elliott> Gregor: ((Note: Nobody's created one yet))
01:25:15 <Gregor> I'm well aware of that.
01:25:18 <Gregor> Having searched for one before.
01:25:56 <elliott> Gregor: Funny, because I have the perfect design for one, YOU SHOULD IMPLEMENT IT[shot]
01:28:25 <Sgeo> WRITE IT IN COBOL
01:28:29 <Sgeo> </NONSENSICAL>
01:29:33 <zzo38> Does COBOL even have functions for that purpose? I think COBOL is only for common business computations.
01:32:06 <Sgeo> DISPLAY TEXT-OUT
01:32:12 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or is that missing a .
01:32:18 <Sgeo> http://404i.com/cobol/basics.html
01:32:49 <pikhq> elliott: Huh, so it is.
01:33:01 <pikhq> elliott: It's weird to think that apt is actually relatively young.
01:33:12 <elliott> pikhq: Like mid-90s, no? :P
01:33:59 <pikhq> elliott: Mere 10 years.
01:34:08 <pikhq> *God* dselect sucks.
01:34:40 <elliott> $ sudo aptitude install dselect
01:35:53 <Sgeo> http://404i.com/cobol/4div-c.html
01:35:59 <Sgeo> This looks very... inflexible
01:36:16 <Sgeo> I SHOULD KEEP CAPS-LOCK ON WHEN TALKING ABOUT COBOL, REALLY
01:36:22 <elliott> Gregor: So are you up for a trade or not? :P
01:36:30 <elliott> Gregor: This device is ONLY available inside the UK, I think.
01:36:33 <elliott> Gregor: So, y'know, RARITY.
01:37:12 <Sgeo> WHY IS ZERO A KEYWORD?
01:37:25 <Gregor> elliott: What WM should I use?
01:37:43 <zzo38> Gregor: Write your own WM, then
01:37:45 <Gregor> I want something that's borderline-usable, but light :P
01:37:58 <elliott> Gregor: 9wm, aewm, or wm2/wmx.
01:38:02 <zzo38> Sgeo: Maybe so you don't get mixed up with "O"?
01:38:03 <elliott> Gregor: Those are your three (well, four) choices.
01:38:16 <elliott> Gregor: wm2 would be nice with the widescreen. aewm would be like 9wm but with a title bar.
01:38:49 <elliott> Gregor: Although 9wm and aewm are both heavily dependent on middle/right clicks.
01:39:07 <Gregor> Desktop-click menu, yes?
01:39:26 <Gregor> Hrm, no maximize button in wm{2,x}?
01:39:39 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to SGEO.
01:39:44 <elliott> Gregor: None in wm2. Dunno about wmx.
01:39:45 * SGEO GIVES UP ON THIS PARTICULAR TUTORIAL
01:39:49 <elliott> Gregor: They're, uh, opinionated. (wmx less so.)
01:40:00 <Gregor> Yeaaaaaaaaaaah so Ice then :P
01:40:26 <Gregor> There's a wait regardless, I'm still installing the X server.
01:40:26 <elliott> Gregor: Ratpoison + a panel (fbpanel or whatever).
01:40:39 <Gregor> Ratpoison = keyboard-happy
01:40:44 <elliott> Gregor: Because there's no real point having multiple windows at once on such a screen, and the panel lets you switch windows without using the keyboard.
01:40:48 <elliott> Gregor: See the second part of my sentence :P
01:41:01 <Gregor> Since when does Ratpoison let you switch window w/o the keyboard?
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01:41:21 <elliott> Gregor: When you use a panel application...?
01:42:06 <elliott> Gregor: jwm is a quite nice icewm-esque thing but its config file is xml so bleh.
01:42:26 <elliott> Gregor: What state are you in? I'ma look up shipping :P
01:42:44 <zzo38> Instead of implementing TeX, I can implement "XeX", which can be different (it might not pass the TRIP test, it won't implement \outer and \long, etc) but can produce DVI output with identical meaning from TeX when typesetting a correct (no error) TeX document (with a modified Plain TeX format that changes things to support TeX files
01:42:50 <SGEO> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/looking-job-security-try-cobol-426
01:42:58 <Gregor> elliott: fbpanel + ratpoison = fail
01:43:02 <zzo38> such as default extension, and \outer and \long, and so on)
01:43:15 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, it probably just tries to focus, not raise... or ratpoison refuses to be coerced :P
01:44:09 <elliott> Gregor: I have no idea how your country's postal system works.
01:44:36 <elliott> International Flat Rate Envelope
01:44:43 <elliott> Gregor: Would it fit in that? :P
01:44:47 <zzo38> Gregor: What country?
01:44:47 <elliott> Oh, wait, there's an EXPRESS one too.
01:44:49 <elliott> That's not quite PRIORITY.
01:44:56 <elliott> Is there a "slow" option? :P
01:45:10 <Gregor> elliott: Should, this isn't 4lbs.
01:45:19 <elliott> Gregor: It'd fit into an envelope, then?
01:45:23 <elliott> Gregor: What about the charger?
01:45:31 <Gregor> elliott: Just a small AC adapter, no problem.
01:45:41 <elliott> Plasma Mobile is the third environment. It is targeted at smartphones and small tablet devices that are mainly used via touch input. It is still being developed with the first stable release expected to be due in 2011, although individual KDE applications may be released earlier as part of the porting effort to MeeGo. Preview releases of the Kontact applications and a document viewer based on KOffice are already available.
01:45:45 <Gregor> elliott: I fear that it would get smashed, but other than that :P
01:46:20 <elliott> Gregor: What about 9 1/2" x 12 1/2"?
01:46:30 <Gregor> ... this is a 7" tablet.
01:46:34 <elliott> Priority Mail® International Flat Rate Envelope* [More info about Priority Mail® International Flat Rate Envelope*]
01:46:34 <elliott> Maximum Value for Contents: $400.00
01:46:34 <elliott> USPS Supplied Envelope: 9 1/2" x 12 1/2".
01:46:39 <Gregor> That's, like, way bigger than it needs to be :P
01:46:45 <elliott> Gregor: $13.45 at post office, $12.78 online.
01:46:57 <elliott> Gregor: Wait, surely that power adapter is US-only? :(
01:47:06 <elliott> I'll just get an adapter or never charge it ever
01:48:00 <elliott> Gregor: So as you'll clearly pay for the postage online, I can have that sweet piece of kit for $37.78. SWEET
01:48:24 <elliott> Actually £23.34 but whatever :P
01:48:52 <elliott> Plasma Tablet is a prototype implementation that combines elements from Plasma Netbook (notably its newspaper view) with elements from Plasma Mobile.
01:49:39 <elliott> Gregor: ...so, uhh, is it any good at browsing the web? :-P
01:50:17 <Gregor> It's not too bad, actually. Scrolling on big pages can be sort of slow, but it's not so bad on the screen size.
01:50:24 <Gregor> Images usually look shitty :P
01:51:01 <elliott> Gregor: Man, this thing has a slower CPU than new smartphones, a seemingly shittier-although-larger display compared to my iPhone, and a terrible touchscreen :P
01:51:11 <elliott> Gregor: If we could put a dollar value on frustration...
01:51:16 <elliott> ...this thing would cost a fuckton. I want it.
01:51:41 <elliott> Gregor: Well, isn't it 500 mhz?
01:51:46 <elliott> If not, HOLY SHIT IT HAS LOWER SPECS THAN THE UBISURFER.
01:51:57 <Gregor> Dude, I linked you to it :P
01:52:03 <elliott> Gregor: It quoted no CPU speed.
01:53:00 <Gregor> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.42071
01:53:36 <elliott> Gregor: I... this is the worst thing, like, ever.
01:53:46 <Gregor> It's pretty entertaining though :P
01:54:03 <elliott> Gregor: The iPad currently sounds like the greatest device to ever be birthed, listening to this.
01:54:26 <elliott> MAY STEVE JOB'S LOINS ENVELOP ME
01:54:29 <elliott> Gregor: Please tell me it has Flash.
01:54:39 <elliott> Gregor: It would be hilarious to watch it choke on EVERY FLASH EVER.
01:55:27 <elliott> Gregor: Okay then. WINDOWS CE
01:56:27 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, most power adapters these days are going to be 120V/240V simply because it's cheaper than making two adapter circuits. Honestly.
01:56:37 <elliott> pikhq: Yes but lack of child-saving safety prong,.
01:56:54 <pikhq> elliott: You would need to purchase a socket adapter, yes.
01:58:42 <pikhq> Isn't it annoying how many fucking sockets there are out there?
01:58:54 <pikhq> And volt/hertz combinations.
01:59:00 <Gregor> No, the more fucking-sockets the better chance of fucking.
02:00:14 * Gregor waits for pikhq to stop bashing his head into a wall.
02:00:30 <pikhq> Amusingly, the US is the only country using an international standard for their socket.
02:01:05 <pikhq> (the US socket was retroactively defined as *the* socket for 120v 60Hz power by the IEC, because we're the only people who insist on it.)
02:01:42 <Gregor> This is, however, another case of blaming America for having bad technology when it's really just because we had it first.
02:02:12 <pikhq> Gregor: I'm actually not calling it bad; it works pretty much as well as 240v 50Hz.
02:02:40 <Gregor> It hurts less when you lick wall sockets though.
02:02:40 <pikhq> Gregor: It's only annoying because it's *different*.
02:02:54 <pikhq> Gregor: Now Japan, on the other hand, that we can blame.
02:03:12 <pikhq> They use 100V power, 50Hz *or* 60Hz.
02:03:19 <Gregor> Japan and France. We can ALWAYS blame Japan and/or France.
02:03:32 <pikhq> Oh, France is unconditionally blamed.
02:08:32 <poiuy_qwert> would it be useless to release an OS X esolang interpreter?
02:18:03 <SGEO> COMPUTE DEMO-VAR = 2+2
02:22:35 * SGEO VAGUELY WONDERS WHAT STRING MANIPULATION IS LIKE IN COBOL
02:22:41 <SGEO> PROBABLY LIVING HELL
02:24:51 <SGEO> IT OCCURS TO ME THAT THE WORKING-STORAGE STUFF HELPS ENFORCE READABLE VARIABLE NAMES. IF YOU DON'T USE READABLE VARIABLE NAMES THERE, THE CODE BECOMES SO HOPELESSLY UNREADABLE NO ONE WOULD EVEN DREAM OF WRITING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE
02:26:33 <SGEO> OH, SO THAT'S WHY ZEROS EXIST (READING A GOOD TUTORIAL)
02:33:44 <elliott> SGEO: No, people just wrote code that hideous.
02:34:55 <pikhq> Okay, now that's actually kinda annoying. US power is actually 120V/240V. Driers and ovens get 240V for their heating elements.
02:35:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:36:14 <pikhq> I should be given the power to replace all standards.
02:36:46 <SGEO> HMM, NUMERIC EDITED CANNOT BE MOVED INTO NUMERIC EDITED
02:36:58 <Gregor> I swear Debian is faster than Android on this ...
02:37:27 <pikhq> Gregor: Well, Android actually has a VM going.
02:40:58 <pikhq> Okay, high-leg delta power distribution is really fucking clever. (the scheme that the US uses for power distribution)
02:41:24 <SGEO> I'D TRUST COBOL WITH CURRENCY WITH . THAN SOME MORON WRITING CODE IN JAVA MANIPULATING CURRENCY AS A FLOAT OR DOUBLE
02:41:32 <pikhq> It's got two AC hot lines and a single neutral line. The hot lines are half wavelength out of step.
02:41:59 <elliott> SGEO likes COBOL; discuss his increasing stupidity as time increases.
02:42:06 <pikhq> The upshot is that if you use just the two hot lines, you get perfect AC of twice the voltage of each individual line.
02:42:15 <pikhq> So, 120V/240V power distribution.
02:43:00 <SGEO> I WOUDN'T USE IT FOR ANYTHING MORE COMPLICATED THAN SOME MATH AND SIMPLE FLAT-FILE MANIPULATION
02:43:46 <pikhq> elliott: To be fair, he's only appreciating its decimal floating point. Which is one of the few useful things it has.
02:45:26 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:46:46 * Gregor proceeds to install xterm
02:48:43 <elliott> Gregor: Also Firefox. Don't argue.
02:48:46 <elliott> Gregor: Or better, Seamonkey.
02:52:10 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:52:24 <SGEO> WHAT IF I WANT A CONDITION NAME THAT CHECKS SEVERAL VARIABLES?
02:53:13 -!- wareya has joined.
02:54:08 <SGEO> DEAR TUTORIAL: STOP IT WITH THE UNREADABLE POWERPOINT ANIMATIONS
02:57:37 <SGEO> WELL, THIS POWERPOINT VIEWER THINGY FOR WINDOWS 95 WORKS ON WINDOWS 7
03:08:23 <SGEO> "Open subroutines. are useful because they allow a programmer to code a subroutine. without the formality or overhead involved in coding a Procedure or Function.
03:08:35 <SGEO> ..HOW IS THAT USEFUL? WHAT OVERHEAD/
03:09:24 <elliott> coppro: http://damnyouautocorrect.com/img/oh-poopy-autocorrect.jpg
03:11:10 <elliott> comex: I have an excellent idea.
03:23:12 <Gregor> elliott: Yeesh, xchat has a crapload of dependencies X-D
03:23:50 <elliott> Gregor: Okay, fine; thttpd.
03:24:16 <Gregor> Well on my way to Firefox now!
03:24:39 <zzo38> I am not very good at the C code golf. To do good at the C code golf at Anarchy Golf, it is necessary to make assumptions about the machine, and those things! But some of the other ones I did a good job sometime
03:24:43 <elliott> Gregor: I was joking, you moron :P Install Chromium.
03:24:58 <Gregor> elliott: libmozjs2d is (apparently) a dep of xchat.
03:25:05 <zzo38> SGEO: What does it mean "open subroutines"?
03:25:29 <SGEO> zzo38, execution can fall through to the next subroutine, depending on how you call the subroutin
03:25:52 <SGEO> Or if execution doesn't terminate by the time you reach it physically
03:26:47 <zzo38> SGEO: Do you mean like in machine code you might have a subroutine followed by the next one directly in memory, with no RETURN code in between?
03:27:06 <SGEO> Something like that, I think
03:27:34 <SGEO> Except in COBOL, one way of calling it ensures that it returns.. but if you don't terminate the program, the subroutine will be called again
03:27:43 <SGEO> And then the next one, without the return
03:27:44 <zzo38> Can you do that in any programming language other than assembly language? (If so, you have to have it omit prolog/epilog to make it working?)
03:28:00 <SGEO> FIRST-PARAGRAPH.
03:28:07 <SGEO> DISPLAY "FIRST".
03:28:26 <SGEO> Let me pastebin this actually
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03:31:40 <SGEO> http://ideone.com/i2WDC
03:32:12 <SGEO> So FIRST-PARA calls PERFORM SECOND-PARA, which performs the second paragraph and returns to the first
03:32:21 <zzo38> O, now I understand.
03:32:21 <SGEO> Then execution falls through to the second and third paragraphs
03:33:54 <elliott> Gregor: You're using armel right?
03:34:04 <Gregor> Nonono, you misunderstand.
03:34:08 <Gregor> Nothing is failing to install.
03:34:11 <Gregor> It's installing TOO MUCH.
03:34:11 <elliott> Oh, you just don't like it
03:34:13 <SGEO> The thingy complained at me about missing the 7 spaces in front
03:34:19 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:34:27 <SGEO> Or maybe it would have been ok if I skipped the line numbers, but I didn't try it
03:34:30 <elliott> Gregor: it probably depends on x-www-browser to open links
03:34:41 <Gregor> I didn't install the recommends!
03:34:48 <Gregor> Then again, I didn't pay any attention :P
03:35:43 <SGEO> No, that does not work
03:35:49 <SGEO> I need all those damn spaces
03:36:17 <Gregor> OK, after all that lunacy, I just need xvkbd.
03:37:09 <elliott> Gregor: Tell me you're using apt?
03:37:16 <elliott> You sound like you're doing it manually :P
03:37:21 <Gregor> "Linking and byte-compiling packages for runtime python2.6..."
03:37:24 <Gregor> Of course I'm using apt.
03:37:37 <Gregor> aptitude install xchat -> holy crap why do I have iceweasel
03:37:50 <elliott> fizzie: HALP HALP PALHPALHPALHP[L[LD[RTJ
03:37:53 <elliott> i am literally in seizures
03:38:57 <EgoBot> 1034 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>++++++++>+++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>>+++.--.>>.<<<+.>>>+.<<<.>>>+++++.<<++++++++.<---------------------------------------.--------------------------.>>----.+++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++++.>--.----.<<----.<.>----.>>.<++++++++.<.>++.------.<<.>>+.>----.-------.+++++++++++++.---.<<<.>>>++.<<++++.<.>+.+++++++++.>--.<<.>+++++.>----------.---.<<.>>----.<+++.>>--------.<<----.----.--.--------.<.>>-------------------------------.++++.<<.>>+++++
03:39:38 <elliott> !bf ++++++++++++[>++++++++>++++++++>+++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>>+++.--.>>.<<<+.>>>+.<<<.>>>+++++.<<++++++++.<---------------------------------------.--------------------------.>>----.+++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++++.>--.----.<<----.<.>----.>>.<++++++++.<.>++.------.<<.>>+.>----.-------.+++++++++++++.---.<<<.>>>++.<<++++.<.>+.+++++++++.>--.<<.>+++++.>----------.---.<<.>>----.<+++.>>--------.<<----.----.--.--------.<.>>-------------------------------.
03:39:39 <EgoBot> calamari: People always thank me for the awesome B
03:40:01 <elliott> Gregor: I guess it decided to say it again :P
03:40:41 <pikhq> elliott: Idea. Grey Mist icon set.
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03:40:54 <elliott> pikhq: Grey Mist icons = disable icons
03:41:02 -!- HackEgo has joined.
03:41:03 <elliott> pikhq: I'm not actually using Grey Mist right now :P
03:41:05 -!- EgoBot has joined.
03:41:05 <pikhq> elliott: Not really.
03:41:07 -!- elliott has left (?).
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03:41:17 <pikhq> elliott: What *are* you using, if not Grey Mist?
03:41:26 <elliott> pikhq: C... C... Clearlooks.
03:41:38 <pikhq> elliott: THE FEATURES, MAN, THE FEATURES.
03:41:40 <pikhq> elliott: HOW COULD YOU.
03:42:02 <pikhq> Also, a Grey Mist iconset would clearly be a very very minimal lineart icon set.
03:42:04 <elliott> pikhq: IN MY DEFENCE I TOTALLY DON'T ENDORSE IT OK
03:42:11 <elliott> pikhq: Also, agreed, get on it :P
03:43:47 <Gregor> OK, seriously what the fuck.
03:43:54 <Gregor> It installed both Python 2.6 and Python 2.5
03:43:57 <elliott> Gregor: "Installing Cobol..."
03:44:21 <elliott> Gregor: Probably one for XChat plugins and one for some other package it wants.
03:44:54 <Gregor> Probably. But still, WTF.
03:46:06 <Gregor> (For FireWeaselFoxyIce of course, but still)
03:48:37 <elliott> Gregor: Because it supports <video>
03:48:40 <elliott> Gregor: Anyway, Chromium, dude. :P
03:48:45 <elliott> <elliott> Gregor: Because it supports <video>
03:48:53 <Gregor> Step one: X-Chat. (Still)
03:49:13 <elliott> perl -lpe'sub f{s/\pl(\d+)/f($_=$s[$1-1][-65+ord$&]);$_/ge;s/^=(.*)/lc$1/ee}push@s,[split$,=v9,$_,-1]}{print map&f?0+sprintf"%.2f",$_:$_,@$_ for@s'
03:49:30 <elliott> (http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?spreadsheet)
03:50:25 <SGEO> What version of IE came with Win95?
03:50:56 <SGEO> Because whatever it is, plugins made for it work in IE8
03:50:58 -!- catseye has joined.
03:51:09 <elliott> catseye: we've missed you! i ... guess.
03:51:11 <catseye> "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python." -- http://www.datarecoverylabs.com/ultimate-computer-language-guide.html
03:51:13 <elliott> not all that hard or anything
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03:51:30 <elliott> I think catseye is sick of us :P
03:51:33 <SGEO> It's a parody page
03:51:36 <elliott> Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at www.datarecoverylabs.com.
03:51:52 <elliott> http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:pFvFDVH_ka4J:www.datarecoverylabs.com/ultimate-computer-language-guide.html+http://www.datarecoverylabs.com/ultimate-computer-language-guide.html&hl=en&client=iceweasel-a&strip=1
03:51:55 <SGEO> http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.datarecoverylabs.com/ultimate-computer-language-guide.html
03:52:13 <elliott> "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python. The current version is Haskell 98."
03:52:15 <elliott> Both sentences are wrong :P
03:52:33 <SGEO> "Java is one of the first truly object oriented languages."
03:53:14 <SGEO> One of the first widely popular ones, maybe. I don't know, but that would be reasonable. But
03:53:47 <elliott> "Tcl, like Perl, and other scripting languages, is an interpreted scripting language designed mostly for console use. It is extensible through high level languages like Java."
03:53:55 <SGEO> "JavaScript began as Netscape's LiveScript, and was rebranded due to Java's popularity."
03:53:57 <elliott> "Ruby is a multi-paradigm language with syntax similar to Perl. It is often compared to Java in as much as both languages borrow object-oriented syntax pioneered by small talk."
03:54:17 <SGEO> I'm glad they didn't say that JavaScript is Java in the browser
03:54:21 <elliott> nooga: YOU SHOULD TOTALLY HELP ME WRITE 8NIX
03:54:27 <elliott> THE ONLY PORTABLE 8-BIT UNIX
03:54:41 <elliott> RUNS ON COMMODORE 64, 8-BIT ATARIS AND YOUR MOM
03:54:44 <SGEO> Syntax seems to be the one thing Ruby _didn't_ borrow from Smalltalk
03:54:50 <SGEO> Or, well, one thing
03:56:06 <elliott> nooga: Bulk of kernel, userspace code written in portable language -- unlikely C, unless I can find a C compiler that can target all these with the same language. Most likely a "real" portable asm with ()s, call it A or Z or something.
03:56:22 <elliott> nooga: Architecture-dependent abstraction library, bootloader code and drivers, obviously.
03:56:57 <elliott> nooga: Proper multitasking and what not. Serial port support being a major feature because you can have all the bloat a modern terminal gives you, rather than the rather, uh, limited consoles of the machines.
03:57:10 <SGEO> "If both files are ordered on the key field, then this record matching operation functions correctly, but if either the transaction or the master file is unordered, record matching cannot work.
03:57:11 <elliott> Also it lets you type | instead of ! or whatever on machines without such luxurious characters...
03:57:13 <SGEO> I don't get that
03:57:22 <SGEO> Surely you could still do it, but pitifully slowly?
03:57:28 <elliott> nooga: Probably not very fast, due to portability.
03:57:36 <elliott> http://lng.sourceforge.net/
03:57:41 <elliott> nooga: That did all of this for the C64.
03:57:55 <elliott> nooga: It's just a matter of getting rid of all the optimisations so that it runs more slowly and on more hardware. :)
03:57:55 <nooga> we should discuss it tomorrow
03:58:12 <nooga> since i'm drunk again and my gf wants to sleep atm
03:58:24 <elliott> it would be fun to hook it up to telnet
03:58:31 <elliott> serial cable then telnet server, or else an actual ethernet driver
03:58:48 <nooga> i could run it on my 8088
03:59:34 <SGEO> Dear authors: Just because you have a broken algorithm, doesn't mean that what you are stating is impossible is, in fact, impossible.
03:59:46 <elliott> nooga: I'LL SPECIFICALLY BREAK IT ON EVERY NON-8-BIT ARCHITECTURE
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04:01:28 <SGEO> http://www.csis.ul.ie/cobol/Course/SequentialFiles2.htm
04:01:36 <SGEO> FOR LYING ABOUT IMPOSSIBILITIES
04:02:00 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: You're using VNC?
04:02:04 <SGEO> Remind me tomorrow to write a COBOL program that does the impossible
04:02:16 <Gregor-ChiPad> elliott, I'm using VNC to localhost, not a real X server.
04:02:17 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: Try drooling on your keyboard instead, it's what the iPad users do.
04:02:25 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: fbdev should work :P
04:02:39 <elliott> Virtual keyboard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
04:02:39 <elliott> A virtual keyboard is a Device invented by the russian government by joseph stalin to stop the allies from attacking endor. A virtual keyboard can usually ...
04:02:39 <elliott> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_keyboard - Cached - Similar
04:02:45 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: *screen, is what I meant.
04:02:51 <Gregor-ChiPad> elliott, Well, because xvkbd is broken, I'm using vncviewer from my desktop :P
04:02:54 <elliott> (Actual Google result, that)
04:03:19 <SGEO> elliott, remind me tomorrow to write a program that batch-deletes from an unordered sequential file
04:03:21 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: What? I'm laughing, fuck you.
04:03:34 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: A virtual keyboard is a Device invented by the russian government by joseph stalin to stop the allies from attacking endor.
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04:06:39 <SGEO> http://www.csis.ul.ie/cobol/Course/SequentialFiles2.htm
04:06:52 <SGEO> Read the answer for "There does not seem to be any special code to write out the remaining records when one file ends before the other. Can the code above be correct?"
04:07:05 <SGEO> I'm beginning to see why COBOL might be hard to read
04:08:42 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: Use something else.
04:10:25 <zzo38> Person who say it cannot be done should not interrupt person doing it.
04:10:31 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: What about uh... what that thing... the...
04:11:00 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: That mobile window manager.
04:11:33 <calamari> elliott: LUnix runs on atari8 too, dunno if you discovered that
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04:11:49 <elliott> calamari: i saw that it could run on atari too yeah (which almost made me not want to do this)
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04:12:00 <elliott> calamari: unfortunately it kernel panics in VICE, says IDE64 isn't there
04:12:03 <elliott> even though it's turned on in vice
04:12:57 <calamari> I wonder if I'm still listed as a dev lol
04:14:06 <calamari> afk, my son is desperate to play websplat
04:14:10 <SGEO> I just realized that I'm not sure if you can go back to the beginning of a file in COBOL. Nevermind my complaints, then.
04:15:05 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: matchbox has a keybaord thing
04:15:36 <elliott> http://matchbox-project.org/screenshots/770-notes-small.png wonder if this nokia thing is open source?
04:15:45 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: http://matchbox-project.org/screenshots/u71-thumb.png keyboard
04:15:50 <elliott> "Matchbox window manager and keyboard running with GNOME ( including the GNOME panel and Nautilus desktop ) on a Sony U71 UMPC with Ubuntu Linux. "
04:16:46 <Gregor> How'd he make it dock like that D-8
04:16:52 <Gregor> Probably just doesn't dock into IceWM :P
04:21:57 * SGEO ponders writing a language that easily compiles to COBOL
04:22:52 <elliott> Gregor: Where should I send money to, hypothetically? :P
04:23:23 <Gregor> elliott: PayPal to <address_to_be_listed_if_I_actually_decide_to_sell> :P
04:24:46 <elliott> Gregor: I'll pay $40. That's $27.22 plus international postage (online price) :P
04:24:51 <elliott> That's EVEN MORE than the minimum $25!!111
04:25:07 <pikhq> elliott: What's that in real money?
04:25:15 * Gregor vaguely wonders how paying for shipping online works anyway.
04:25:29 <pikhq> Like, €0.01 or something?
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04:26:10 <pikhq> Ah, ¥3253. Quite real money there.
04:26:32 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.usps.com/international/sendmail.htm
04:26:36 <elliott> Gregor: Ooh, there may be an even cheaper option
04:26:40 <elliott> "First-Class Mail® International"
04:27:51 <elliott> Gregor: How much does it weigh again?
04:28:38 <Gregor> I'm soooo bad at guessing low weights.
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04:29:40 <elliott> Gregor: Let's say 3 pounds for it and the charger.
04:29:58 <elliott> OK, Priority Mail® International Flat Rate Envelope is still the cheapest.
04:30:01 <elliott> Priority Mail® International Flat Rate Envelope* [More info about Priority Mail® International Flat Rate Envelope*]
04:30:01 <elliott> Maximum Value for Contents: $400.00
04:30:01 <elliott> USPS Supplied Envelope: 9 1/2" x 12 1/2".
04:30:11 <elliott> $13.45 at office, $12.78 online.
04:31:11 <elliott> Gregor: It's, uh, probably simpler to just not do it online because I can't figure out how :P
04:31:15 <elliott> Looks like it might involve Windows and a printer.
04:32:10 <elliott> Gregor: So with the post office price, $40 gets you $26.55, which is clearly $1.55 over your quoted minimum price.
04:32:53 <Gregor> Bleh, between matchbox-keyboard being terrible and this Android VNC viewer being terrible, this is nigh-on unusable >_>
04:33:09 <elliott> Gregor: Are you *sure* there's no X.org support for the touchscreen?
04:33:20 <Gregor> No, I haven't even checked or tried.
04:33:24 <Gregor> It's just more pain than I want to deal with.
04:33:48 <elliott> Gregor: With modular X.org, it could be as simple as... "startx".
04:33:53 <elliott> Isn't Android based on X, anyway?
04:36:03 <elliott> http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2010/11/03/equations-over-groups-a-mess/#comment-7647 dated yesterday.
04:36:13 <elliott> He must have just lost his shell account or something.
04:37:30 <Gregor-ChiPad> Damn it, if this VNC viewer didn't suck so much this'd be pretty darn good.
04:38:29 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: You have the libraries :P
04:39:36 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: sudo aptitude install xorg
04:41:09 <SGEO> If I close and re-open a file, can I return to the top of the file?
04:41:10 * Gregor tries a different app.
04:46:23 <elliott> http://jpbrown.i8.com/hanoisolver.html lego hanoi solver
04:47:02 <Gregor-ChiPad> OK, this is a better VNC client, but matchbox-keyboard sucks.
04:47:38 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: Try... "GOK"
04:47:46 <elliott> It's what I have here in GNOME.
04:48:54 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: oh, you need to enable ASS-TIVE TECHNOLOGIES
04:49:11 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: OMG STOP WAIT
04:49:16 <elliott> Gregor-ChiPad: Install Dasher. NOW
04:50:50 <elliott> Why not? Are you a racist?
04:51:21 <calamari> Gregor-ChiPad: tried it on my wii, never got past loading... tho
04:51:45 <calamari> I guess wii opera is too lame hehe
04:52:12 <elliott> I wrote this sentence with Dasher. And I don't regret it.
04:52:16 <elliott> Double space is a mouseo :P
04:52:27 <Gregor> Dasher sucks even on computers that don't.
04:54:48 <elliott> Gregor: Dasher is cool if you actually have a need for it, i.e. have no arms :P
04:54:58 <elliott> Gregor: It's also great to get the little "go to" line vertical and just hold it there: "LeG urU,bacling by coysiss increat. In the surface. Pip music diagram, this shDupen, who was, the praction of the Lumber, wike DNA black holding, wments and he t& levelis. Pailizing on the New York Avra&Betbacks to go with and stars."
04:55:19 <zzo38> Now I made the GF-Magick program, and it works now! Do you like this program?
04:55:28 <elliott> zzo38: Yes! It is wonderful program.
04:56:01 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kim_Jong-il's_titles My God that's amazing.
04:56:22 <pikhq> Kim Jong Il, Dear Leader, who is a perfect incarnation of the appearance that a leader should have.
04:56:38 <elliott> "We !' understandGavift mean that that is of rubber untifson to you like a boratefok's eyes more effectsU.."
04:56:48 <zzo38> There is the program: http://sprunge.us/OXAL Now it is possible to use METAFONT with ImageMagick.
04:57:23 <elliott> pikhq: Swallow-bourne Prince of Twin Rainbows
04:57:27 <elliott> Double rainbow, all the way, across the North Korean sky.
04:58:29 <elliott> Sweet, I broke Dasher by setting it to Japanese.
04:58:34 <elliott> Now it crashes on startup.
04:58:41 <elliott> ** Message: Could not initialise SPI - accessibility options disabled
04:58:44 <zzo38> Which means you can use colors and all kind of other special effects with METAFONT, and many kind of output format.
04:59:01 <pikhq> elliott: It is the official story that his birth was foretold by a swallow and heralded by a double rainbow and a *new star in the heavens*.
04:59:47 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, what languages do you know apart from English, Japanese and Esperanto? I want to give you Dashernonsense for you tot ranslate :P
05:00:01 <elliott> "Perl programming language" BEST LANGUAGE MODEL EVER
05:00:21 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, I know a few phrases of Spanish, and would suddenly start remembering quite a bit more if in a Spanish-speaking country for a couple of days.
05:00:37 <elliott> "9@JR;xn8;'Z;@;K<}5_@;R@;K<(@;';@J;'" -- typical Perl according to Dasher
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05:02:22 <pikhq> It is also said that Kim Jong-il controls the weather.
05:02:47 <TLUL> Does EgoBot still run the BF Joust?
05:03:07 <TLUL> Suppose I can just try it and find out.
05:03:45 <elliott> TLUL: It does if and only if you believe it does.
05:04:26 <TLUL> !bfjoust TLUL_acid_rush >[-]+[[-]>[-.]+]
05:04:42 <elliott> It records your name automatically.
05:04:44 <EgoBot> Score for TLUL_TLUL_acid_rush: 17.0
05:05:02 <elliott> Just do "!bfjoust TLUL_acid_rush ]" to get it off the board if you make a better-named one :)
05:05:25 <TLUL> !bfjoust TLUL_acid_rush ]
05:05:38 <TLUL> It's also the lowest scoring one, so I think I'll remove it.
05:05:40 <EgoBot> Score for TLUL_TLUL_acid_rush: 12.2
05:06:09 <TLUL> Heh, let's see how bad of one we can make
05:06:41 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_bastard: 12.2
05:06:44 <elliott> !bfjoust bastard ]([)%1000
05:06:49 <TLUL> !bfjoust TLUL_acid_rush [-]+[-<+]
05:06:51 <elliott> Gregor: Link us to the board :P
05:06:52 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_bastard: 0.0
05:07:15 <EgoBot> Score for TLUL_TLUL_acid_rush: 9.5
05:07:29 <elliott> And we can cover the board with [s!!!
05:07:32 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_bastard: 12.2
05:07:36 <TLUL> !bfjoust TLUL_acid_rush ]([)%1000
05:07:44 <EgoBot> Score for TLUL_TLUL_acid_rush: 0.0
05:08:03 <Gregor> elliott: "Link us to the board :P" What does this mean?
05:08:09 <elliott> Gregor: the bfjoust leader board
05:08:10 <TLUL> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
05:08:36 <elliott> !bfjoust TLUL_acid_rush ]([)%1000
05:08:43 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_TLUL_acid_rush: 0.0
05:08:46 <elliott> HAHA IT KNOCKED YOURS OFF (probably)
05:09:23 <TLUL> !bfjoust Acid_rush [-]+[[-]>[-]+]
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05:09:51 <TLUL> That one should turn out... interestingly.
05:09:53 <EgoBot> Score for TLUL_Acid_rush: 9.4
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05:10:57 <Gregor> elliott: How the HELL do you make gok show an ACTUAL KEYBOARD X_X
05:11:29 <elliott> Gregor: Enable accessibility in GNOME :P
05:11:33 <TLUL> !bfjoust Acid_rush (+)*7[>>>(-)*117>[-]..+]
05:11:42 <EgoBot> Score for TLUL_Acid_rush: 0.0
05:11:46 <Gregor> elliott: Not - helpful
05:12:04 <elliott> Gregor: I don't actually know.
05:12:39 <elliott> Gregor: But when you do, it'll be beautiful: http://www.gok.ca/pics/2002_05_10_152021_shot.jpg
05:12:57 <SGEO> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Punch-card-cobol.jpg
05:13:07 <SGEO> It occurs to me that I have no idea how to read that
05:14:08 <Gregor> elliott: I wish gok would stop showing me this retarded alpha keyboard
05:15:21 <SGEO> Surely someone had to punch that... unless you typed at a machine which punched the right holes for you?
05:15:52 <SGEO> That actually makes the most sense now that I think about it
05:17:29 <Gregor> elliott: I don't think gok functions at all without GNOME ...
05:17:38 <elliott> Gregor: I don't think it functions at all :P
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05:17:51 <SGEO> "Sometimes the ignored positions 7380 were used to contain a sequence number in a deck of cards, so they could be resorted back to the right order in case they were dropped."
05:17:58 <SGEO> Isn't that what 1-6 in COBOL are for?
05:24:18 <SGEO> The machines are called keypunches
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05:51:36 <SGEO> "Now now, it's not true that Brainfuck is easier to read than Cobol. PerlLanguage, sure. But not Cobol.
05:51:41 <SGEO> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhyWeHateBrainfuck
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08:16:42 <zzo38> The [[User:Ehird]] page won't load
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17:57:05 <elliott> 00:16:42 <zzo38> The [[User:Ehird]] page won't load
17:57:06 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird
17:57:10 <elliott> Yes it does, it's just slow!
17:57:44 <Vorpal> elliott, slow due to download time or due to rendering?
17:57:51 <elliott> rendering, I would assume. Although it's not tiny either.
17:58:03 <elliott> It uses CSS opacity which tends to be rather slow.
17:58:13 <Vorpal> elliott, did you automate the generation of it or?
17:58:44 <elliott> Vorpal: However it isn't quite done yet; the snowman, for some reason, won't move down from where it is now.
17:58:51 <elliott> <b style="position:absolute;width:100%;font-size:500%;color:#fff;text-align:center;z-index:10000"><br><i style="font-size:400%">☃</i></b>
17:58:57 <elliott> This stays at the top of the page for whatever reason.
17:59:30 <Vorpal> elliott, hm looks better than yesteday at least!
17:59:44 <elliott> $ curl -s http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird | wc -c | dc -e '?1024/p'
18:00:03 <elliott> Where by ain't bad I mean is long.
18:00:11 <elliott> Vorpal: <div> and <span> are blocked
18:00:37 <pikhq> elliott: Add a margin-top.
18:00:46 <elliott> pikhq: Why didn't I think of that?
18:01:02 <elliott> Oh, I also need to get rid of the horizontal scrollbar that I think that width:100% is causing, but that can wait.
18:01:35 * pikhq is back to trying to get Half-Life 2 to work in a wineroot.
18:01:43 <pikhq> Damned thing won't coöperate.
18:01:57 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird Snowman is now comfortably inside page!
18:02:19 <elliott> Except when you increase the font size.
18:03:15 <pikhq> Also, that sucker is *way* off the screen now for me.
18:03:33 <elliott> I can't preview this locally without pain :P
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18:03:59 <Vorpal> elliott, does the preview thingy not work?
18:04:06 -!- happyinasombrero has left (?).
18:04:23 <elliott> Vorpal: When it did work, it obscured the edit box; ais523 edited the MediaWiki CSS so that it, y'know, didn't; this has the effect of making preview not show anything on such pages.
18:05:19 <pikhq> Come on Steam, actually start.
18:05:37 * pikhq throttles the massive seeding
18:06:08 <Sgeo> I think Vonkeror can't handle User:Ehird
18:06:59 <pikhq> I think Steam doesn't like me ATM.
18:07:20 <elliott> Sgeo: Maybe Sgeo has a 1-bit monitor :P
18:07:24 <elliott> Sgeo: Maybe zzo has a 1-bit monitor :P
18:08:26 <elliott> pikhq: Haa, take a look at what's happened to it.
18:08:59 <Sgeo> Takes up the width of the page
18:09:24 <elliott> Sgeo obviously has a shitty browser.
18:09:33 <elliott> Oh, you mean the horizontal scroll?
18:09:34 <Sgeo> I'm referring to the source
18:09:50 <Sgeo> Where you have <b></b> styled to take up the width of the page
18:09:52 <Sgeo> For the gradient
18:14:29 <elliott> pikhq: Dear god what have I done to the snowman.
18:17:33 * pikhq would like to take this moment to flip off Steam
18:19:09 <elliott> pikhq: I just tried to replace the limes in the esolang logo with a white-on-black snowman on my talk page but I can't :P
18:21:56 <elliott> pikhq: I'll write a single-stepping SKI interpreter in MediaWiki to pay for my failure. Deal? :P
18:27:47 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lZ5Yez0Hec
18:30:48 <elliott> Gregor: is this meant to be hilarious?
18:31:19 <Gregor> It's somewhere between hilariously bad and hilariously awesome.
18:31:32 <elliott> DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRR!!
18:31:39 <elliott> (door door door door door door)
18:33:14 <pikhq> Gregor: I wonder how they'll do the cannon.
18:33:15 <elliott> Gregor: My attempt at 2:46, in form: Hbbbbbbbbbblllllllllllllrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
18:34:58 <elliott> "World of Warcraft: Cataclysm vs. Bejeweled 3" --IGN
18:35:17 <Sgeo> What's supposed to be funny about it?
18:35:32 <elliott> "Bejeweled 3: has a quest mode with one or more quests. All quests will probably involve jewels."
18:35:47 <pikhq> Sgeo: Someone hasn't heard the 1812 overture all the way through. :P
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18:36:16 <elliott> this is my favourite game review ever
18:37:37 <elliott> (http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/113/1132476p1.html)
18:38:22 <Sgeo> So I Googled it for nothing
18:39:36 <Sgeo> What you said to find the review
18:39:40 <Sgeo> "Number of Known References to PopCap's Plants Vs. Zombies "
18:39:44 * Sgeo finds that amusing
18:41:48 <Sgeo> "where players are driven to collect loot and kill monsters by matching colors. May heaven have mercy on us all."
18:41:54 <Sgeo> Puzzle Pirates?
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18:42:17 <Sgeo> (I don't think there are monsters to kill in PP, but you get what i mean)
18:42:30 <Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later
18:48:56 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit
18:48:57 <elliott> r<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later
18:49:17 <HackEgo> 254|<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program a bit later<Sgeo> I think I'll write that COBOL program
18:49:19 <poiuy_qwert> would it be useless to release an OS X compiled interpreter for an esolang?
18:49:27 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: why not just release the source?
18:50:13 <Sgeo> What's with the multiple pastes?
18:50:32 <poiuy_qwert> I dont want everyone to see how bad its coded? :P I don't want to release the source till i'm done
18:51:00 <poiuy_qwert> but i wanted to release a compiled version of whats done so far
18:51:02 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: Nobody really pays much attention to closed-source esolangs. Well, if they're portable, perhaps (say, Flash or whatever, but ew).
18:51:20 * Sgeo still needs to email Fidelity
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18:51:40 <poiuy_qwert> well I will eventually be releasing it compiled for osx and windows, including source
18:51:44 <elliott> Just release the source or wait until it's done before releasing anything. Besides, there's esolangers with far worse code than what you have :p
18:51:54 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: Uhh, we also have a rather large population of *nix users...
18:52:00 <elliott> (Okay, OS X is *nix, but still...)
18:53:03 <Sgeo> *nix does not look like it should fit as a set that includex linUx
18:53:18 <elliott> *nix matches barely anything, which is why it's not a glob :P
18:53:29 <Sgeo> <elliott> includex.
18:53:55 <Sgeo> You tend to point out typos like that
18:53:57 <poiuy_qwert> i think i'll probably just wait till im done and release everything at once...
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19:01:28 <pikhq> poiuy_qwert: Just release the source. Seriously.
19:01:36 <pikhq> poiuy_qwert: Even if it's fucking terrible.
19:02:45 <elliott> about the Enterprise-D: "Because it's not a ship of war. It's more like a heavily armoured carnival cruise ship, equipped with oceanography labs, and 18" gun turrets just in case. And it's run by the military, only it isn't the military, unless you need the military. In which case, it's the military."
19:04:31 <pikhq> elliott: It's quite clear that Starfleet was very unfamiliar with the concept of war.
19:04:55 <elliott> WAR IS INHUMANE *shoots things*
19:06:19 <Sgeo> Weren't there a ot of civilians on board?
19:06:23 <poiuy_qwert> pikhq: well I will be releasing the source once im done or at least a little further on
19:06:30 <Sgeo> Wait, which series was Enterprise-D?
19:06:53 <Sgeo> In TNG, I remember an episode where... stuff with time happened, and then the alternate them was at war
19:07:00 <oklopol> guess what i did last night?
19:07:05 <Sgeo> And Tasha Yar was alive
19:08:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: Enterprise-D was TNG.
19:08:31 <Sgeo> But in the regular crew, there were clearly civilians, and .. they did get into fights sometimes, didn't they
19:08:33 <zzo38> poiuy_qwert: Many codes also, different people have different opinions how bad the codes are.
19:08:39 <elliott> Sgeo: That wasn't alternate, that was just the last episode.
19:08:40 <Sgeo> Well, I guess that's not the same as being explicitely at war
19:08:43 <elliott> (It was in fact past/future.)
19:08:55 <pikhq> elliott: That wasn't the last episode.
19:09:05 <Sgeo> I wasn't referring to the last episode
19:09:07 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: Nobody uses OS X in the esolangs community that I know of. Well... jix I think does? Whatever.
19:09:09 <poiuy_qwert> well I was actually kidding about the bad code part :P
19:09:16 <elliott> pikhq: Sgeo: Yesterday's Enterprise?
19:09:23 <elliott> Sgeo's description is hopelessly vague :P
19:09:24 <Sgeo> elliott, I.. think that was it
19:09:36 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: And closed-source esolangs get basically no attention; why not just release the source?
19:09:40 <poiuy_qwert> elliott: yeah thats what i assumed, just asked to make sure
19:09:49 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, that's the one with Tasha Yar that's not season 1...
19:10:13 <poiuy_qwert> <poiuy_qwert> i think i'll probably just wait till im done and release everything at once... <poiuy_qwert> pikhq: well I will be releasing the source once im done or at least a little further on
19:10:27 <elliott> pikhq: Excuse me, "All Good Things..." has Tasha.
19:10:33 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, wait, she was in All Good Things... as well, wasn't she.
19:10:33 <elliott> pikhq: And is the last episode. And has past/future.
19:10:47 <elliott> pikhq: That also fit Sgeo's description; they're not very friendly with the Klingons in that future.
19:10:51 <elliott> (Okay, not *war*, but still.)
19:11:07 <zzo38> poiuy_qwert: I think it is a good idea to release the codes (using a free software/open source license (or public domain) if you can) (I try to prefer release source-codes of my programs as much as possible too, including a license such as GNU GPL or public domain)
19:11:19 <pikhq> elliott: I think he'd mention if it were a Q episode.
19:11:37 <elliott> pikhq: With that kind of memory? :P
19:11:42 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, fair enough.
19:11:46 <oklopol> who cares about the program, is there a language involved?
19:12:00 <elliott> oklopol: yes poiuy_qwert made a language apparently
19:12:04 <poiuy_qwert> zzo38: i've never actually looked into licenses because I just cant be bothered to read it, i just release everything
19:12:06 <elliott> "Oracle will deliver two Java Virtual Machines (JVMs) based on the OpenJDK project - one free and the other paid." LOLJAVA
19:12:08 <Sgeo> I happen to know the name of the last episode, thank you very much
19:12:14 <Sgeo> And not just because it was just stated here
19:12:20 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: Just use the MIT license for open source stuff.
19:12:22 <oklopol> elliott: can he tell me more about it?
19:12:29 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: It is, literally, "you can do anything you want if you keep this license and my name here".
19:12:34 <elliott> oklopol: i don't know you'd have to ask him
19:12:45 <oklopol> elliott: hmm, i'll consider that
19:12:51 <elliott> Zetaplex is already implemented, isn't it?
19:12:57 <oklopol> elliott: what do you think would be the polite way to approach him?
19:13:06 <oklopol> poiuy_qwert: stfu, i wasn't talking to you
19:13:17 <elliott> oklopol: Something like "poiuy_qwert: so uh hi i saw you have a new language, tell me about it???? or not if you don't want to i guess uh"
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19:13:22 <elliott> oklopol: i think that would be appropriate
19:13:37 <oklopol> elliott: okay sounds good, i'll base my question on that
19:13:59 <zzo38> poiuy_qwert: Yes, the MIT license will do too. (I don't use this license for my own projects; but I have no objection to it being used with other people's project)
19:14:20 <Phantom_Hoover> It's more an absence of any restrictions on the use of whatever it is.
19:14:22 <oklopol> poiuy_qwert: i would like to know stuff about your language which i heard exists atm, please tell me although you don't have to
19:14:30 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, I know that. (If you want it public domain but with a license anyways, use WTFPL, it is basically the same thing)
19:14:41 <poiuy_qwert> elliott, zzo38: that sounds like a license i would use
19:15:34 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: Or the WTFPL.
19:15:36 <poiuy_qwert> oklopol: oh yes no problem. its called Zetaplex, check it out: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Zetaplex
19:15:44 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: ("Do What The Fuck You Want To Public License")
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19:18:37 <Sgeo> elliott, http://qntm.org/nanowrimo
19:20:47 <pikhq> An MP in the UK lost his seat after an election court ruled that he knowingly made false statements about an opponent during his campaign.
19:20:55 <pikhq> *God* I wish US elections worked like that.
19:21:15 <Sgeo> pikhq, so that no one will be able to fill seats?
19:21:24 <pikhq> (in the US, actually lying about your opponent is PAR FOR THE COURSE.)
19:21:32 <Sgeo> We'd have an empty Congress
19:21:43 <pikhq> Sgeo: No, I think we'd have Kucinich.
19:21:57 <pikhq> Pity that's not quorum.
19:22:05 <oklopol> holy fucking assmunch that language is hugfe
19:22:15 <Sgeo> oklopol, COBOL?
19:22:30 <elliott> "Sgeo*!*@* added to ignore list."
19:22:38 <elliott> if only I could ignore *COBOL* too
19:23:21 <pikhq> elliott: I'm pretty sure you can in irssi, by ignoring PRIVMSG *COBOL* or some such.
19:23:38 <oklopol> what if he's on ##COBOL tho?
19:23:44 <Sgeo> What? Way too many keywords and no structured grammar do not make a language huge? Or, well, the syntax
19:23:55 <Sgeo> Erm, shouldn't say no structured
19:24:07 <Sgeo> But um.. not.. blargh
19:24:07 <oklopol> indeed, that's not english
19:24:32 <oklopol> because it is, i just misparsed :D
19:25:00 <elliott> oklopol: you are the most fun
19:25:04 <Sgeo> I assume elliott's ignores tend to be temporary?
19:25:04 <oklopol> ugh, i feel so lucky i don't have to read my messaged
19:25:29 <oklopol> and then i read them and go like hmm what the fuck does that mean
19:25:43 <elliott> it means that god owns your soul
19:25:43 <oklopol> and then i'm like w/e not my prob
19:25:54 <oklopol> guess what i did last night
19:25:59 <oklopol> now that i got ur attention
19:26:11 <Sgeo> ^ul (Trying elliott's trick that he's used to get to others before)S
19:26:17 <oklopol> no, much crazier than that
19:26:17 <Sgeo> !ul (Trying elliott's trick that he's used to get to others before)S
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19:26:52 <oklopol> even the cheater thought that was too much of a cheat, Sgeo
19:27:35 <Sgeo> ~ul (Maybe it doesn't like empty printing)S
19:27:44 <oklopol> poiuy_qwert: where did you get all those commands?
19:27:58 <oklopol> Sgeo: maybe what doesn't? :D
19:28:09 <oklopol> poiuy_qwert: for the language
19:28:19 <oklopol> there was a big list of them!
19:29:28 <poiuy_qwert> its got a lot of functionality as well as a little fluff to make things easier/less code so games can be faster
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19:32:20 <oklopol> poiuy_qwert: i'd tell you i was coding a game last night but i want elliot to guess first
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19:34:15 <fizzie> elliott: It's just that fungot refuses to respect my authority with the unseemly ~ in the username.
19:34:15 <fungot> fizzie: life is a horror movie
19:34:29 <fizzie> fungot: Who said that?
19:34:29 <fungot> fizzie: just requests for renting an apartment, so it fnord be useful information regarding an error state, or do you?' at the end
19:34:47 <fizzie> fungot: Okay, now you're just incoherent again.
19:34:47 <fungot> fizzie: sarahbot, yow". i didn't know about
19:34:55 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
19:35:10 <fizzie> It resets to irc wheneve restarted.
19:35:54 <fizzie> Some day I'll save the current style in the state file. Probably same day I'll finally save the ignore list.
19:36:14 <fungot> Sgeo: do you care? nobody will make you his bitch to upgrade. well that's true :) still, i would guess it'll become the normal greeting for a superior person in the world has scheme or lisp
19:36:34 <fizzie> I guess I could just have a initial command list that it'd run at startup.
19:36:45 <Sgeo> fungot, elliott
19:36:45 <fungot> Sgeo: we are " food eaters". humans are fnord, so ( fnord x)
19:36:58 * Sgeo fnords elliott
19:37:23 <fizzie> The punctuation should also be improved, there's those spurious spaces.
19:37:26 <Sgeo> TYOP DELIBERATE
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19:49:19 <fizzie> "[fizzie] idle 51:14:03" before jumping, I seem to have been very lax when it comes to ircery.
19:52:43 <oklopol> elliott: guess more, or ignore me, there are no other options
19:53:38 <elliott> <oklopol> poiuy_qwert: i'd tell you i was coding a game last night but i want elliot to guess first
19:53:43 <elliott> try spelling my name right :P
19:54:15 <oklopol> if i'd spelled your name right, you would've
19:54:35 <oklopol> you can't read other people's messages
19:54:37 <elliott> oklopol: you are beyond confusing
19:54:39 <oklopol> hasn't your mom taught you anything
19:55:05 <oklopol> in any case, you guessed correctly, i was programming
19:55:24 <elliott> (also: misspelling intentional)
19:55:39 <oklopol> of course it was intentional
19:56:12 <oklopol> tbh we didn't really finish the game, because we were not programming in python
19:56:21 <oklopol> although maybe we halved it
19:57:16 <oklopol> and there are blocks that try to kill you
19:57:24 <oklopol> and you can shoot blocks at them and build stuff from blocks
19:57:51 <oklopol> 's this crazy shooting mechanism where you can shoot blocks on arbitrary trajectories
19:58:36 <elliott> <oklopol> and you can shoot blocks at them and build stuff from blocks ;; so like minecraft then *shot*
19:58:41 <elliott> "it sounds cool, i'll go clone it"
19:58:46 <elliott> (me at your idea, not you at minecraft)
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19:59:36 <oklopol> i haven't seen minecraft, but my coding partner told me about it when i started talking about my block ideas
19:59:48 <oklopol> in any case minecraft is 3d so i don't see how it could be very interesting
20:00:06 <elliott> but more socially retarded!
20:00:23 <oklopol> afaiu you can't really... do anything in minecraft
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20:00:49 <elliott> oklopol: you can do circuits
20:00:57 <elliott> also you can make pickaxes!
20:01:14 <elliott> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Crafting
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20:01:55 <oklopol> if it's a roughly real-life complete game, i'm marginally interested
20:02:12 <oklopol> but real-life physics are not very interesting
20:02:33 <oklopol> in fact anything that happens in euclidean space is pretty much yesterdays news
20:03:24 <oklopol> but so maybe i'll have to try that
20:03:50 <elliott> oklopol: well, you can punch trees
20:04:06 <elliott> oklopol: and the rest of the trunk and all the leaves just hover in the air above the bit you punched off
20:04:16 <zzo38> See this is a file I made with GF-Magick http://sprunge.us/PXdi Now you please try to make 3D animations with GF-Magick, too!
20:04:29 <elliott> oklopol: it just doesn't apply to trees
20:04:35 <elliott> oklopol: (and various other things; it does apply to certain types of blocks)
20:04:46 <zzo38> elliott: Why not trees?
20:05:17 <zzo38> O, it is because they are magic trees
20:05:19 <oklopol> tell me more about circuits
20:05:21 <elliott> "Gameplay in Minecraft consists mainly of adding and destroying blocks on a map surrounded by water on all sides. There are several different types of blocks, some of which perform special functions like spreading or falling down because of gravity."
20:05:30 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Redstone_circuits
20:05:44 <elliott> oklopol: someone did a 16-bit ALU from an actual design (in some textbook) with them
20:06:20 <elliott> oklopol: anyway yeah electricity with stone and torches, can't go wrong
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20:07:26 <oklopol> well have to admit that does sound awesome
20:07:35 <elliott> oklopol: it has rollercoasters
20:07:43 <elliott> admittedly they're special-cased, but c'mon
20:08:03 <elliott> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Minecart
20:08:31 <elliott> oklopol: you can also theoretically make elevators with screwy minecart physics to make it vertical, water because i forget why, and circuits; ask fizzie :P
20:08:51 <elliott> "Minecarts can act very strangely when they're next to each other - they accelerate rapidly. This effect is used to create boosters.
20:08:51 <elliott> Please check Minecart boosters for detailed description of how they work. "
20:16:35 <Vorpal> elliott, noticed that yellow text on the main menu in minecraft?
20:16:46 <Vorpal> which is randomly selected every time you open that menu
20:16:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I found this one very funny:
20:16:57 <elliott> at first, i hoped it was the version
20:17:18 <Vorpal> "This text is hard to read if you play the game at the default resolution, but at 1080p it is fine!"
20:17:25 <Vorpal> in *very* small letters
20:18:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I also found "Larger than earth!" somewhat amusing. It is even accurate since minecraft has an infinite world, generated on demand.
20:18:58 <elliott> In Classic it's finite though.
20:19:04 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but in alpha it isn't
20:21:27 <elliott> alpha isn't unless you pirate it*
20:21:30 <elliott> *which makes you a bad person
20:22:15 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm seriously considering buying it though
20:22:35 <Vorpal> elliott, the screwy minecart physics makes it worth it!
20:22:36 <oklopol> piracy is *easier* than paying, i don't care about money, i have a job
20:24:39 <oklopol> so anyone wanna give me a link to piratebay so i don't have to google it
20:24:55 <oklopol> nah just kidding i'll consider doing it soon
20:25:55 <oklopol> can i interact with people even with the pirated one
20:26:11 <oklopol> i've heard that's the best part about online gaming
20:27:26 <oklopol> as long as there's enough space for me ofc, i wouldn't actually like to see anyone
20:30:12 <elliott> oklopol: well you can do the single-player thing.
20:30:23 <elliott> oklopol: or you can put in an IP for a server and interact with EVIL people.
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20:30:38 <elliott> oklopol: also you can play single or multiplayer with Classic but there's no circuits or carts or anything there.
20:31:34 <oklopol> i'd like this game where you have an infinite 2d universe and really small planets, and gravity is towards big polygons, polygons merge into bigger polygons automatically to make the physics real-time computable, and you could build spaceships from the materials found on your planet
20:33:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps we can enslave a programmer to make it for us!
20:33:34 <elliott> oklopol: variable gravity?
20:33:48 <oklopol> bigger the polygon, bigger the grav
20:34:48 <oklopol> because orbits don't work in 2d (according to what i've heard, and also never having managed to get them working in my 2d games) and a few other reasons, there would probably also be a few physical laws not found in real life
20:36:04 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: if relativistic, then speed of light would be about 5km/h
20:36:39 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: they are not if there's a force that tries to keep them static
20:37:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Logically, the Newtonian physics wouldn't be quite as they are in 3D, since the inverse square law simply becomes inverse.
20:38:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course, if you just make it inverse square that disappears.
20:38:45 <oklopol> erm "<Phantom_Hoover> Logically, the Newtonian physics wouldn't be quite as they are in 3D, since the inverse square law simply becomes inverse." <<< why?
20:39:28 <oklopol> i thought you meant the restriction of nf to a plane would result in that
20:40:11 <Phantom_Hoover> In n dimensions, gravitational force in a Newtonian system is inversely proportional to the n-1th power of the distance.
20:40:18 <oklopol> and with inverse square, orbits are not stable
20:40:53 <oklopol> if *a* physician said so, then i'm probably wrong
20:41:39 <oklopol> maybe stephen hawking's physician would know
20:42:38 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, well, it follows from the surface of a sphere analogue.
20:42:45 <oklopol> in any case, "<oklopol> and with inverse square, orbits are not stable" i've tested countless times when i was a kid, and always thought it was discretization of time that made them unstable, so i assumed also what people say about 2d orbits was with this law
20:43:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, pi*r² ?
20:43:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it is the surface *area* of a circle
20:43:51 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: well ofc if you take the same objects' restrictions to a plane, you will get one multiple of n less measure, but same distance; but we don't care about mass, we just care about what kind of function of r it is
20:44:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, OK, fine; surface hypervolume of an n-1-sphere.
20:44:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so the circumference?
20:45:27 <Phantom_Hoover> For n=3 it's the surface area, for n=4 the surface volume, and so on.
20:45:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, surface volume sounds... strange but yeah I know logically it will be so
20:45:57 <calamari> Gregor: The goal of Websplat according to my 4 year old son: "To get the Piston Cup"
20:46:15 <elliott> oklopol: make a game where the amount of dimensions increases as you get more and more points
20:46:32 <elliott> oklopol: like it starts off all boring and 1 or 2d and then you end up dodging things and the like in 24 dimensions
20:46:47 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so the inverse square law follows from the effect being spread over the surface over a sphere.
20:46:49 <oklopol> i'm sure that would be fun
20:47:31 <oklopol> wait no, i still don't agree
20:47:45 <oklopol> in any case, this is pretty irrelevant
20:47:47 <elliott> oklopol: now *i* want to make that game
20:47:52 <Vorpal> calamari, never seen it
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20:48:00 <oklopol> what's relevant is to talk about ways to make orbits work
20:48:06 <elliott> joystick is 2d movement, you can press a toggle up or down to change which dimension you're moving in
20:48:08 <elliott> e.g. vertical or horizontal
20:48:09 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, well, it doesn't matter, because if we stay true to it then orbital physics fails.
20:48:10 <elliott> vertical, horizontal or depth
20:48:15 <elliott> vertical, horizontal, depth or qxujqxui
20:48:26 * pikhq is very very irritated at qemu right now
20:48:28 <elliott> you always operate on two dimensions
20:48:37 <elliott> so e.g. in 4d you operate on vertical/horizontal
20:48:45 <calamari> I was annoyed with it months ago
20:48:47 <elliott> press the toggle up, you're moving around in horizontal/depth
20:48:50 <pikhq> The userspace network emulation is not working.
20:48:54 <pikhq> Why? Hell if I know.
20:48:54 <elliott> press the toggle up, depth/qxujqxui
20:49:00 <oklopol> elliott: maybe it could just be one of those games where you're a gun and try to shoot things coming at you
20:49:13 <elliott> oklopol: i was thinking that, yeah, like Asteroids but N-d
20:49:17 <oklopol> this game where there's a goal and you need to walk to it :D
20:49:26 <elliott> that would be equally difficult :)
20:49:36 <elliott> oklopol: perhaps that + things shoot at you and you have to shoot them for points
20:49:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, emulation of what? qemu?
20:49:46 <Vorpal> ah yes you said that abvoe
20:49:48 <elliott> oklopol: maybe the toggle should be a second joystick or whatever
20:49:53 <elliott> or at least a mouse-wheel type thing
20:49:54 * Phantom_Hoover decides to try writing a 2D orbital physics thing to see what happens.
20:49:57 <elliott> so that it's easier to control what dimensions
20:50:18 <calamari> pikhq: I was just trying to run an x86 program in armel.. some worked most didn't
20:50:18 <elliott> oklopol: one floor is that e.g. in 3d you could only move in horizontal and vertical, and vertical and depth, not horizontal and depth
20:50:20 <elliott> because of the control system
20:50:54 <pikhq> Vorpal: Emulation *of a network card* *in qemu*. As qemu network emulation would be.
20:51:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well adanaxis is a 4d shooter
20:51:14 <elliott> and there's some 4d puzzle game i think
20:51:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: but nothing where the dimensions increase as you get further
20:51:23 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: tell me how it goes
20:51:34 <elliott> oklopol: yeah, it's called adanaxis
20:51:43 <Sgeo> Does elliott eventually remove people off his ignore list?
20:51:45 <oklopol> okay i have two things i have to try
20:51:49 <elliott> oklopol: the controls are such that 4d is basically an extra aiming step :)
20:51:53 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, you're in a 3D space in which you can navigate.
20:51:59 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why don't you ask him yourself?
20:52:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh is he ignored?
20:52:20 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, and there's a tertiary axis that rotates in 4D.
20:52:58 <Vorpal> Sgeo, but why did he ignore you?
20:53:02 <oklopol> if you can do all 4d rotation, i'm happy
20:53:10 <Sgeo> I mentioned COBOL one too many times, I think
20:53:26 <Vorpal> <elliott> oklopol: the controls are such that 4d is basically an extra aiming step :) <-- indeed
20:53:53 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you hate it too I presume?
20:53:54 <elliott> LOOK OUT WORLD, I'M WRITING A PACKAGE MANAGER
20:54:08 <Vorpal> how can someone *like* it
20:54:11 <elliott> he keeps talking about the interesting features
20:54:14 <elliott> and going on about how like
20:54:27 <Vorpal> elliott, that would have been true.... 20 years ago
20:54:30 <elliott> Sgeo's future career is going to be hilarious and he'll hang himself by the time he turns 35
20:54:41 <elliott> Vorpal: oh no he CAN perfectly well get a job maintaining a legacy system
20:54:46 <oklopol> it doesn't matter if 4d is an extra aiming step, as long as there isn't a separate 4th axis
20:54:46 <elliott> it's just that he believes that people write readable cobol
20:54:50 <Sgeo> I never said that good for careers == good language
20:54:51 <Vorpal> elliott, well that is true
20:54:52 <Sgeo> I'm no Java fan
20:55:01 <elliott> Vorpal: the code isn't readable though!
20:55:30 <oklopol> the 3d analogy of the wrong way to do this is to have a 2d asteroids, but you can move the plane lower and higher, and when shooting you can aim down or up; but you can't actually turn the plane
20:56:03 <Vorpal> oklopol, just try it out?
20:56:06 <elliott> oklopol: i'm thinking that with my game, the primary projection should be into 3d space
20:56:11 <calamari> http://home.swbell.net/mck9/cobol/ooc/ooc.html
20:56:11 <Vorpal> oklopol, it is quite fun though rather hard
20:56:13 <elliott> oklopol: so you have another joystick which just rotates 3d space
20:56:18 <elliott> and it projects higher dimensions onto that
20:56:27 <elliott> of course you COULD have a way to change what dimensions you rotate
20:56:32 <elliott> but fuck that, i'll just use a projection
20:56:50 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, adanaxis is linux-only isn't it?
20:56:57 <Sgeo> Also, interesting != good
20:57:08 <Vorpal> there is a windows version
20:57:12 <Sgeo> The floating point stuff is actually good, but the open subroutines are not
20:57:16 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.mushware.com/portal.php?page=4 here's a video of it
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20:57:35 <Sgeo> Well, good depending on the circumstances
20:57:40 <elliott> oklopol: looks like rotating the 4d thing to me
20:58:30 <zzo38> I have made some games and have some ideas of games with different kind of things, you could make five-dimensional sokoban in non-euclidean space, or something like that???
20:59:54 <zzo38> elliott: What ideas of package manager do you have to write?
21:00:08 <elliott> zzo38: various! right now I'm just writing a little idea I had to see how practical it is
21:00:42 <Vorpal> elliott, povray can probably be made to do it ;P
21:01:52 <Vorpal> how did that happen...
21:02:10 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:02:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I Googled it at the time, and it didn't seem like it.
21:02:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Primarily because rays behave differently in non-Euclidean geometries.
21:02:57 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Write it using Enhanced CWEB, maybe. And then publish the book of it.
21:04:21 <zzo38> Do you like this code? http://sprunge.us/PXdi
21:06:38 -!- Quadrescence has joined.
21:06:42 <zzo38> Do you understand this code?
21:11:28 <oklopol> "<Vorpal> oklopol, just try it out?" <<< what are you my psychiatrist
21:11:46 <oklopol> "<elliott> oklopol: i'm thinking that with my game, the primary projection should be into 3d space" <<< what does that mean?
21:12:29 <oklopol> you can compose an n-dimensional space into a 3d space and a n-3-space any way you want, that's the whole point
21:12:37 <elliott> oklopol: what you see on the screen is 3d
21:12:43 <elliott> if it's 4d you get a 3d projection of 4d
21:12:53 <elliott> and you can rotate around the 3d space to see the projection more fully
21:13:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i don't see why
21:13:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the projection of a hyperplane fills the whole 3-space into which you're projecting.
21:14:09 <oklopol> "five-dimensional in non-euclidean space"?
21:15:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean like some of these,
21:15:05 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Schlegel_wireframe_8-cell.png
21:15:06 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Tesseract.gif
21:15:09 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Stereographic_polytope_8cell.png
21:15:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Or even http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/3D_stereographic_projection_tesseract.PNG.
21:15:31 <elliott> You'd keep getting more panels you need to squint at.
21:15:35 <elliott> As the dimensions increase.
21:16:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but just as a plane blocks off everything in a 2D projection of a 3-space, so does the projection of a hyperplane into 3D.
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21:17:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I swear there is stuff that already works like this.
21:17:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, FWIW, I bumped into this while making the film of Excession in my head.
21:20:07 <elliott> i should read excession first
21:20:10 <elliott> also who cares about games with plot
21:20:48 <oklopol> plots could be interesting, but they are always hard-coded
21:20:57 <oklopol> which makes them as uninteresting as graphics
21:21:10 -!- wareya has joined.
21:21:53 <elliott> i can't figure out whether oklopol would love or hate eve online
21:22:43 <nooga> elliott: http://www.jamesmolloy.co.uk/tutorial_html/index.html :D
21:22:56 <elliott> nooga: i remember when it first come out
21:23:03 <elliott> grumble we were fine with that old one by uh what was it, Brain?
21:23:09 <elliott> nooga: anyway that's ridiculously x86-specific
21:23:16 <zzo38> I invented a game that is meant to be as different from chess as possible while still being exactly the same as chess. One difference is it uses only one-dimensional instead of two-dimensional. You might be able to make similar ideas with other games, too.
21:23:36 <Vorpal> <oklopol> "<Vorpal> oklopol, just try it out?" <<< what are you my psychiatrist <-- XD
21:24:14 <nooga> elliott: that's true
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21:25:08 <nooga> elliott: so how would you start with unix clone for 8bit machines?
21:25:51 <elliott> nooga: good question! probably pick a first architecture (commodore 64, is there really any competition?) and then figure out how to do, say, multitasking on that
21:26:00 <elliott> and write some platform-specific code
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21:27:23 <nooga> good idea, i also thought about c64
21:27:23 <Vorpal> <elliott> i can't figure out whether oklopol would love or hate eve online <-- interacting with other people, he said he wouldn't like it
21:28:10 <elliott> Vorpal: it's not very social i don't think :)
21:28:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: because there are no decent CASes
21:28:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I haven't played it, I wouldn't know
21:28:35 <elliott> Vorpal: there are corporations and treaties and shit but there's an awful lot of spaceships.
21:28:52 <Vorpal> elliott, is there a free trial version or such?
21:29:00 <Vorpal> and what about linux support
21:29:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what happened?
21:29:59 <oklopol> "<Vorpal> <elliott> i can't figure out whether oklopol would love or hate eve online <-- interacting with other people, he said he wouldn't like it" <<< i do like interacting with people OCCASIONALLY
21:30:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, at least your #esotericking time will be reduced.
21:30:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, there is. I think.
21:30:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, uh, I'm mine crafting and esotericing at the same time
21:30:29 <elliott> I only played it for a short period of time and it really takes a lot of getting into.
21:30:34 <elliott> Vorpal: EVE Online is not a multitasking game. :)
21:30:38 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, well maybe not a good idea then
21:30:52 <elliott> Vorpal: It has a very true-to-form physics system.
21:31:12 <elliott> Vorpal: There are spaceships and shit, but it's all very consistent. (It's space, in case you haven't guessed.)
21:31:17 <elliott> Vorpal: It has an incomprehensibly large universe and a huge, real economy.
21:31:30 <elliott> There are corporations, alliances, treaties, blowing spaceships the fuck up.
21:31:59 <elliott> Vorpal: In fact, it can be free.
21:32:05 <elliott> Vorpal: You can buy game time for *game money*.
21:32:13 <Vorpal> so like ev override. But for windows. And in 3d. And multiplayer. And even larger.
21:32:17 <elliott> So if you get rich enough in the free trial, you can sustain yourself.
21:32:24 <Vorpal> elliott, is it not buy once?
21:32:29 <elliott> Vorpal: ...it's an MMORPG.
21:32:43 <Vorpal> elliott, minecraft is buy once and it is mulitplayer online too
21:32:55 <fizzie> Water elevators work because you can swim up a waterfall, and you can position your dude so that he doesn't drown, yet stays inside the waterfall and can therefore float up.
21:33:04 <fizzie> Plus boats rise up waterfalls really fast for some reason.
21:33:08 <Vorpal> elliott, true, it is independent. eve online is large gamestudio
21:33:08 <elliott> Despite EVE Online being huge it's mostly run off a single server.
21:33:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, actually, the game studio is only large because of EVE.
21:33:24 <fizzie> It's not quite Dwarf Fortress awesome, but still a bit nifty.
21:33:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is? minecraft? yeah
21:33:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have to try that boat thingy some time
21:33:58 <fizzie> It's also still alpha, and being developed, so the finished product might be more niftier.
21:34:09 <elliott> fizzie: Dwarf Fortress MMO.
21:34:19 <Vorpal> elliott, wow. just wow
21:34:32 <fizzie> I suppose it's been discussed in the interwebs a lot; it sounds like the sort of topic that would.
21:34:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think minecraft will probably be developed for a long time if everything goes as planned
21:34:59 <elliott> Well, Alpha was originally "infdev".
21:35:05 <elliott> So one would assume that it is a rather rolling-release type dealie.
21:35:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Have you played Survival?
21:35:13 <Sgeo> You can build things in Minecraft. Turns out you can also build things in Active Worlds.
21:35:17 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.minecraft.net/survivaltest/
21:35:28 <Vorpal> elliott, yes a bit, harder than alpha
21:35:40 <Sgeo> Although in AW you don't have to gather resources
21:35:53 <Vorpal> Sgeo, ..............................................................................................
21:35:53 <elliott> I have not yet been attacked once in Alpha, probably because I tend to dig a lot :)
21:36:01 <Vorpal> Sgeo, that comment is so ABSURD
21:36:02 * elliott checks logs for sgeo funny
21:36:12 <Vorpal> I might put you on ignore as well
21:36:28 <elliott> Minecraft? HMPH, we did that in 2000, and it was SHIT too!
21:36:35 <fizzie> Haven't been Minecrafting past Halloween, since our local server admin hasn't updated the server, and for some reason I feel more like building in the shared space.
21:36:35 <elliott> Not like these modern games, with goals and challenges and fun.
21:36:58 <elliott> fizzie: Halloween was sooooo long ago :P
21:37:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: <Sgeo> No it isn't! We have a bunch of incompetent people *remaking* an Active Worlds game!
21:37:15 <fizzie> Well, it's been *days*!
21:37:31 <elliott> Because creativity is anti-nostalgia.
21:37:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm I'd really like to get my hands on the current version and try it out
21:37:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, there was an AW crazy here a while ago, wasn't there?
21:37:55 <Vorpal> well, I would need to get paypal first
21:37:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: idiot more like, no?
21:38:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Getting PayPal = filling in credit card details and saying "no don't make me an account"
21:38:20 <Sgeo> I think he was just advertising AW a bit excessively, as opposed to actually being an idiot
21:38:38 <Vorpal> elliott, what? "no don't make me an account"?
21:38:46 <elliott> Vorpal: PayPal has supported account-less payments since forever.
21:38:51 <nooga> elliott: i'm looking for c64's hardware interrupts list
21:39:01 <Vorpal> elliott, well, why doesn't he just accept VISA?
21:39:12 <elliott> nooga: http://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/Interrupt?
21:39:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Because accepting credit cards is *very* difficult.
21:39:29 <oklopol> "<Sgeo> You can build things in Minecraft. Turns out you can also build things in Active Worlds." <<< why was this so stupid?
21:39:38 <elliott> Vorpal: You have to get certified that it's safe and the criteria are insanely draconian and strange. It costs a lot of money, too.
21:39:50 <elliott> Vorpal: The reason PayPal, Google Checkout, etc. exist is because they did all that for you.
21:40:14 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, you have a nose. Turns out a gecko has a nose.
21:40:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ooh we could make this into a meme!
21:41:01 <elliott> I killed 16 million people. Turns out Hitler also killed 16 million people.
21:41:12 <pikhq> elliott: ... Huh. Ubuntu plans to stop using X in the future.
21:41:27 <elliott> pikhq: unity is X-based if that's what you mean
21:41:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, and replace it with what?
21:41:33 <pikhq> elliott: Wayland isn't.
21:41:38 <elliott> i was about to say wayland
21:41:45 <nooga> i need clock interrupt
21:41:54 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: that was a bit less detail than i wanted
21:41:55 <elliott> nooga: are you *sure* it had one
21:42:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, reasons this won't happen: 3D drivers
21:42:07 <elliott> nooga: i know asiekierka had some sort of clock interrupt thing going
21:42:11 <nooga> that's why i'm trying to look it up
21:42:13 <elliott> but he's incredibly irritating and also not right here
21:42:27 <fizzie> At least they're not saying Wayland in 11.04 yet; that one's just Unity.
21:42:29 <elliott> <Vorpal> pikhq, reasons this won't happen: 3D drivers
21:42:55 <Vorpal> elliott, noveau you mean
21:43:27 <pikhq> Vorpal: Uh, Nvidia's the only one that is likely to be a pain.
21:43:33 <elliott> Vorpal: The driver is called nv.
21:43:50 <pikhq> elliott: No, nv is the one without any 3D acceleration.
21:43:55 <pikhq> elliott: It's nouveau.
21:44:39 <Vorpal> anyway. what is this wayland?
21:44:46 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_%28display_server%29
21:44:46 <Vorpal> googling I can't find much
21:45:22 <Vorpal> then it has a chance....
21:45:37 <pikhq> Also, with Ubuntu switching to Wayland I'd imagine Nvidia would port their system to go through KMS and DRM.
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21:46:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, would that leave X users out cold?
21:46:10 <fizzie> nooga: The CIA (6526) has two 16-bit timers, and you can rig them up so that one firing decrements the other (so you get one 32-bit timer); they'll send an iterrupt when they go to zero.
21:46:14 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, you can run X on it.
21:46:14 <Vorpal> pikhq, or do they reckon other distros are important enough?
21:46:30 <elliott> pikhq: he means the driver
21:46:39 <elliott> i.e. "would the driver still work with X"
21:46:46 <elliott> <fizzie> nooga: The CIA (6526) has two 16-bit timers, and you can rig them up so that one firing decrements the other (so you get one 32-bit timer); they'll send an iterrupt when they go to zero.
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21:47:07 <fizzie> CIA1 is hooked to the IRQ line, and CIA2 to the NMI line, and both have their own set of two timers.
21:47:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: KMS and DRM are what X uses for the builtin accelerated drivers these days.
21:47:31 <pikhq> Vorpal: Nvidia, to be a pain, just *does their own god-damned bottom layer*.
21:47:32 <elliott> nooga: there is http://lng.sourceforge.net/ but *beware* of the license before reading the code, I'm not sure what license it is
21:47:33 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, elliott, so, is this completely insane of Shuttleworth?
21:47:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no, this is moving away from X which is the worst thing ever
21:47:47 <elliott> also, you can run an X server on wayland
21:47:51 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: X sucks ass.
21:47:52 <elliott> and then do some fun to have X window --> wayland window
21:48:03 <elliott> and so X11 backwards compatibility could be retained
21:48:17 <pikhq> elliott: Just a rootless X server; not very hard.
21:48:24 <elliott> I think gtk can render to wayland
21:48:29 <elliott> I think clutter can render to wayland
21:48:37 <elliott> and i think gtk is being made to output to clutter? not sure
21:48:46 <elliott> pretty sure qt can do it or if it can't, won't be hard to
21:48:53 <elliott> Qt's rendering backend is easily switchable
21:49:07 <elliott> so point is, that's all the applications ubuntu ships, already working
21:49:14 <elliott> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clutter_%28toolkit%29
21:49:27 <Vorpal> ah that is why I never heard about it before then :P
21:49:29 <elliott> Vorpal: Metacity 3 is going to be Mutter, which is Clutter-based
21:49:36 <elliott> Vorpal: it's also what gnome shell is based on :-P
21:49:51 <elliott> do not fear! I will maintain alacrity-panel until the sun goes cold.
21:49:59 <Vorpal> elliott, also ubuntu ships non QT/GTK apps still.
21:50:01 <elliott> (alacrity-panel = the probable name for my gnome-panel fork when they stop maintaining it)
21:50:07 <Vorpal> probably mostly in universe though
21:50:12 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean the default shipping set.
21:50:18 <elliott> And also 90% of what anyone will use, really.
21:50:38 <elliott> GTK + Qt is almost a duopoly (with GTK in the lead for open source software but Qt for proprietary, I think)
21:50:40 <Vorpal> elliott, what about weird own-toolkit electrical engineering things?
21:50:47 <Vorpal> I used some such thing a few months ago
21:50:51 <elliott> Vorpal: as I said, Wayland can host an X11 server
21:50:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: Rootless X server.
21:51:02 <pikhq> Vorpal: Which already exists.
21:51:08 <elliott> Vorpal: presumably Ubuntu would do a systemd-style ( ;) ) thing of starting an X server when stuff talks to the socket.
21:51:16 <elliott> Vorpal: and then close it when they disconnect
21:51:17 <pikhq> No worse than running an X app on OS X.
21:51:27 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, and you can set the timers to count pulses from an external source; the lines for that are wired to the user port. It's the flexible.
21:51:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, I hope it will be better than X app on OS X
21:51:35 <elliott> nooga: <fizzie> elliott: Oh, and you can set the timers to count pulses from an external source; the lines for that are wired to the user port. It's the flexible.
21:51:40 <elliott> Vorpal: X11.app is pretty good.
21:51:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I only used X11.app back in 10.4
21:52:02 <elliott> Vorpal: X11.app is literally X.Org :)
21:52:05 <Vorpal> maybe it got better since then
21:52:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, MeeGo also uses Clutter.
21:52:23 <elliott> At least the netbook version.
21:52:28 <elliott> Clutter is an open source (LGPL 2.1) software library for creating fast, compelling, portable, and dynamic graphical user interfaces. It is a core part of MeeGo, and is supported by the open source community. Its development is sponsored by Intel.
21:52:31 <fizzie> Clutter *really* is hip nowadays.
21:52:32 <Vorpal> yeah but that is embedded, less weird
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21:52:46 <Vorpal> elliott, intel everywhere you look...
21:52:50 <Vorpal> taking over the world!
21:52:58 <Vorpal> </open-bsd release song>
21:53:06 <elliott> Yeah, Intel have their claws firmly in Linux now. :)
21:53:08 <Vorpal> (or something like it at least)
21:53:15 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it is worrying!
21:53:22 <elliott> Best graphics support, behind all the cool new graphics technologies...
21:53:46 <Vorpal> elliott, except for actual purposes nvidia still outperforms everyone
21:53:58 <Vorpal> due to better than ati/amd drivers still
21:54:02 <elliott> Yeah, but you cut yourself at the unfreeness.
21:54:03 <Vorpal> and better hardware than intel
21:54:14 <pikhq> Vorpal: Intel's got the least dickish graphics support.
21:54:17 <fizzie> Though the ubuntumen say Mutter/Clutter (though maybe they say it's Mutter's fault) is too slow, which is why the whole Unity-on-Compiz thing.
21:54:30 <pikhq> And Nvidia, well, they're still assholes.
21:54:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, true, but look at FPS
21:54:42 <elliott> fizzie: They built Ubuntu Netbook Edition's desktop-thing on Clutter.
21:54:47 <nooga> elliott: that LNG looks quite good
21:54:47 <elliott> fizzie: Until Unity. So yeah.
21:55:02 <pikhq> Vorpal: The only issue with Intel is they make low-end graphics cards.
21:55:08 <elliott> nooga: it is, but (1) C64 only (2) bitrotten (ok, it is c64/atari 8-bit, but still)
21:55:11 <elliott> nooga: also it doesn't run in VICE
21:55:15 <elliott> can't detect IDE64 for some reason
21:55:19 <elliott> pikhq: LARRRRABEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
21:55:24 <Sgeo> Intel Integrated is pain on a stick
21:55:27 <pikhq> But they're perfectly supported, so that's quite beneficial.
21:55:30 <elliott> pikhq: It'll FELLATE your DISPLAY with 3D PIXELS
21:55:32 <Vorpal> elliott, what happened to larrabee?
21:55:42 <elliott> It is 100% pure MICHAEL ABRASH EJACULATE.
21:55:55 <elliott> Every day Michael Abrash steps into a new body, just to work on Larrabee.
21:56:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Intel found out it was too slow
21:56:17 <Vorpal> elliott, who is M. Abrash?
21:56:25 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Abrash
21:56:35 <elliott> You may know him for this: http://codinghorror.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a85dcdae970b0120a86dc32d970b-pi
21:56:40 <zzo38> Maybe I can make a variant of TeX where \immediate\box255 ships out a box.
21:56:41 <elliott> (sorry for codinghorror link. it's just a png)
21:56:49 <elliott> Vorpal: He's the guy behind Larrabee.
21:57:04 <Vorpal> elliott, so what are they retargeting larrabee for?
21:57:21 <pikhq> elliott: There's still a decent chance they'll make consumer-level Larrabees in the future. They currently plan to release it as a research platform.
21:57:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'll just not answer that.
21:57:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Suffice to say it is literally the worst.
21:57:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Larrabee is the codename for a GPGPU chip that Intel is developing separately from its current line of integrated graphics accelerators. The chip was to be released in 2010 as the core of a consumer 3D graphics card, but these plans were cancelled due to delays and disappointing early performance figures.[1] Larrabee will now be released as a platform for research and development in computer graphics and HPC. A future version of Larrabee ma
21:57:37 <elliott> ntually power a consumer graphics card, but Intel has not discussed specific plans.[2] The name Larrabee is rumored to have come from Larrabee State Park in Washington.[citation needed]
21:58:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The worst.
21:58:19 <pikhq> What I find promising about it is that it would make ray tracing practical.
21:59:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I declined to answer.
21:59:16 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, perhaps you could shed some light on the mystery.
21:59:38 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It sucks.
22:00:04 <elliott> I have officially gone crazy.
22:01:15 <Vorpal> elliott, so you have indeed
22:03:30 <Sgeo> The guy might not be the most competent person?
22:04:17 <olsner> the probability that he is the most competent person is very low
22:04:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: try reading it
22:04:47 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if it's so Lovecraftian that elliott and pikhq have been left traumatised by it.
22:05:51 <Vorpal> coding horror? oh no, what a horror
22:06:11 <fizzie> nooga, elliott: The "Mapping the C128" book has a pretty nice-if-a-bit-verbose description of the CIA interrupts -- they're identical to C64, all registers in the same place and all, I think -- though the PDF scan is pretty awful to browse, and the book organization none too clear (see page 480 and around; 243 in the PDF).
22:06:27 <fizzie> I'm sure there's more than enough stuff in a web-readable form too, though.
22:07:45 <fizzie> (You *could* just use the VIC raster-line interrupt as a simple 50/60 Hz timer too.)
22:10:51 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
22:12:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, how fast can you get clock?
22:13:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: The CIA timers have a 1 MHz resolution.
22:14:08 <fizzie> (Of course the CPU also has a 1 MHz clock, so it's not perhaps very useful to get interrupts at that rate.)
22:14:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, CIA standing for?
22:15:19 <fizzie> "Complex Interface Adapter"
22:15:32 <fizzie> It's one of the supporting chips, one that does all kinds of I/O.
22:16:49 <fizzie> There's 2*16 "general-purpose" IO pins there; the joystick buttons, and some user port lines, and what-not are connected there. (And some are used to remap the video memory by providing high address bits.)
22:17:21 <fizzie> And some hardware help for serial port stuff.
22:19:04 <fizzie> The analog X/Y joystick lines -- though the usual sort of joysticks are digital up/down/left/right dealies -- are IIRC connected to the sound chip's A/D converters.
22:19:16 <fizzie> But that's not so strange! Many PC sound cards have joystick ports too.
22:19:21 <pikhq> 1 more day until the nominal time actually matches solar time here. Whoo.
22:19:27 <elliott> Vorpal: # inst http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/wget/wget-1.12.tar.gz --disable-iri
22:19:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Be afraid. BE VERY AFRAID
22:19:55 <elliott> (If I used --disable-ipv6, you'd get angry.)
22:22:18 * pikhq *really* hates being UTC-6 most of the year while living right along the UTC-7 meridian.
22:23:09 <elliott> Vorpal has killed himself after realising what i am doing
22:27:47 <elliott> Or maybe he hasn't quite realised.
22:38:27 <elliott> $ ./inst http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/wget/wget-1.12.tar.gz
22:38:27 <elliott> ######################################################################## 100.0%
22:41:24 <elliott> "As a very simple example, in an en-US locale, a number would be formatted as 1,234.56 -- but in an en-GB locale, the number might be formatted as 1.234,56 instead."
22:41:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Us wacky Brits and our European number formatting.
22:42:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Some silly person.
22:43:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:44:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
22:51:10 <elliott> $ ./inst http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/wget/wget-1.12.tar.gz
22:51:10 <elliott> * Downloading wget 1.12...
22:51:10 <elliott> ######################################################################## 100.0%
22:51:10 <elliott> * Configuring wget 1.12...
22:51:48 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:52:16 <pikhq> elliott: Did you... Just...
22:52:33 -!- oklopol has joined.
22:52:46 <pikhq> elliott: You seriously made a script that builds a random tarball that's well-behaved.
22:52:55 <pikhq> elliott: Does it also install it or make a package?
22:52:58 <elliott> pikhq: Well, right now it needs to be autoconf.
22:52:58 <Sgeo> What did elliott just do?
22:53:14 <elliott> pikhq: Make a package would be easy, just feed it into checkinstall basically. It now runs "sudo make install" which isn't much but it's a start.
22:53:17 <pikhq> elliott: "Well-behaved" means "./configure&&make&&make install".
22:53:31 <elliott> pikhq: Plan: ptrace the "make install", save list of installed files somewhere, use this to uninstall.
22:53:38 <elliott> Something like that, anyway.
22:53:42 <pikhq> So, is this for Kitten?
22:53:48 <pikhq> Or just for kicks?
22:53:50 <Sgeo> What's so horrible about that?
22:53:54 <elliott> pikhq: Uh, maybe! It depends how well it ends up working.
22:53:57 <pikhq> I approve either way.
22:54:15 <elliott> pikhq: Also planned: Give it a git/hg/svn URL and it'll use that.
22:54:34 <elliott> pikhq: (If I can get the SHEER BRASS BALLS to do it, even an http://github.com/person/project URL will be converted.)
22:55:14 <pikhq> elliott: Y'know, it'd be *really* awesome to use that to build a complete Linux system.
22:55:28 <elliott> pikhq: Dear god. I hope we never see that day, for it scares me.
22:55:49 <pikhq> elliott: Pity this wouldn't have much in the way of dependency handling. Ah well.
22:56:10 <elliott> configure errors out? Names a package? Google it, pick the top result, pick the first tarball, auto-run inst on it.
22:56:14 <elliott> WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG
22:56:29 <pikhq> A *lot* of things.
22:57:39 <elliott> pikhq: I was inspired to do this by the OS X "homebrew" package manager, whose packages look like this: https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew/blob/master/Library/Formula/aalib.rb
22:58:24 <elliott> pikhq: More complex: https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew/blob/master/Library/Formula/wget.rb
22:58:30 <elliott> pikhq: Even more complex: https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew/blob/master/Library/Formula/git.rb
22:58:35 <elliott> pikhq: Non-autotools: https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew/blob/master/Library/Formula/ack.rb
22:58:45 <elliott> pikhq: And that's probably what Kitten's package manager will look vaguely like. But hey, inst(1).
23:00:26 <pikhq> elliott: That's an astoundingly reasonable package manager.
23:00:42 <elliott> pikhq: It is; it's also OS X only :P (Well, it might run on other stuff, but...)
23:00:56 <elliott> pikhq: It installs into a Gobo-style /usr/local/Cellar/pkgname/version prefix.
23:01:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:01:53 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/tmp/IMG_4542.JPG
23:02:12 <Gregor> elliott: Chromium doesn't work. Probably the JIT creates asm the processor can't run :P
23:03:39 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.42071 with Debian
23:04:45 <elliott> Gregor: Well, yeah, V8 is x86/PPC only :P
23:04:56 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
23:04:58 <elliott> Gregor: You could run a WebKit browser that didn't use its JS engine, though.
23:05:02 <Gregor> elliott: ... I'm quite sure it has ARM support.
23:05:11 <Gregor> elliott: Such as the one in that screenshot for example X_X
23:05:52 <elliott> V8 implements ECMAScript as specified in ECMA-262, 3rd edition, and runs on Windows XP and Vista, Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard), and Linux systems that use IA-32 or ARM processors.
23:06:05 <Gregor> Just not THIS ARM processor :P
23:06:19 <elliott> Gregor: So will you sell it? :P
23:06:36 <Gregor> I need time to consider the ramifications or something :P
23:07:59 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, I'm giving you over $25 MORE than the postage cost. That's ridiculous and I'm insane :P
23:08:14 <elliott> IT JUST KEEPS GETTING BETTER AND BETTER
23:08:18 <Gregor> 800x480. Where do you keep reading this nonsense.
23:09:03 <Gregor> elliott: But I bought it for $50 and I've put work into it :P
23:09:18 <elliott> Gregor: You ran debootstrap and installed a VNC app :P
23:09:22 <elliott> <Gregor> 800x480. Where do you keep reading this nonsense.
23:09:37 <elliott> Gregor: BUT DUDE YOU COULD LIKE USE IT FOR WEARABLE COMPUTING
23:09:46 <Gregor> No, you severely couldn't.
23:10:47 <Gregor> Because it has no useful I/O.
23:11:19 <Gregor> Certainly not for video.
23:13:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, does having a trained parrot on your shoulder count as wearable computing?
23:14:08 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: No, but having a brain in your head does. Or something.
23:15:16 <Gregor> elliott: Oh and btw you forget that I also had to figure out wtf it was, root it, poke at the different rooted ROMs until I found one that didn't suck, and buy a 2GB MicroSDHC card.
23:15:41 <elliott> Gregor: Surely it was obviously Android? :P
23:15:54 <elliott> Gregor: Okay, I'll throw in the cost of the MicroSD card because I have ENDLESS MONEY to spend on WORTHLESS CARP
23:15:56 <Gregor> ... surely ... it was obviously ... Android ...
23:16:15 <Gregor> What DEVICE it was. They all lie :P
23:16:23 <Gregor> That is, what class of ROMs it can run.
23:16:37 <Gregor> It is NOT an M002, but it actually turns out to be compatible with M002 ROMs. Also it has "M-002" stamped on it.
23:17:05 <elliott> Gregor: What other crap have you bought that I can buy at DISCOUNT PRICES
23:17:53 <Gregor> A wide selection of inflatable love dolls.
23:20:00 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, FWIW, I have a semi-working simulation of a gravitational system in 2D here.
23:21:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I haven't actually gotten the forces and such working fully, but it's a start.
23:21:54 -!- Gregor has set topic: 15 days without oerjan. Outlook bleak. Channel falling apart. We cannot go on this way. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:22:32 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: and orbits form automatically?
23:22:45 <Sgeo> elliott, you will probably see this line.
23:23:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What language?
23:23:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it divides by zero if the point masses collide, but that's no great matter.
23:23:39 <elliott> Gregor: He's just lost his shell account or something.
23:23:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: There are SDL bindings for CL? Or what?
23:24:11 <elliott> Gregor: He commented on the Gödel's Last Letter or P=NP blog two days ago.
23:24:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I have never bothered working out how to use them.
23:24:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: SDL is basically pixel-plotting :P
23:25:37 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: your prog has no gui?
23:26:07 <Sgeo> I don't accidentally have Gregor on ignore, do I?
23:26:16 <oklopol> so basically, you have set of (pos, speed) pairs, and at each iteration, you go through all pairs of these pairs, and apply the gravity formula, then add speeds to positions?
23:26:25 <oklopol> that's 2 lines of mathematica
23:27:18 <Gregor> elliott: I was referring to the outlook for this channel, not for oerjan :P
23:27:18 <elliott> <oklopol> that's 2 lines of mathematica
23:27:24 <elliott> game written in mathematica :D
23:27:27 <elliott> Gregor: just letting you know :p
23:28:30 <HackEgo> 177|<Aftran> I have a feeling iPods still beat me.
23:28:30 <HackEgo> 23|<fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it.
23:28:31 <HackEgo> 187|<CakeProphet> how does a "DNA computer" work. <CakeProphet> von neumann machines? <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. <Phantom_Hoover> It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own.
23:29:15 <elliott> !sh for i in $(seq 10); do echo '`quote'; done
23:29:20 <elliott> Oh, wait, that won't work.
23:29:30 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, OK, how do you get the gravity formula getting the vector properly? Can you work out the x and y components separately?
23:29:31 <elliott> None of our current bots will output N lines :(
23:29:33 <HackEgo> 199|<Sgeo> Why shouldn't I just do everything in non-Microsoft-specific C#? <ais523> it's like trying to write non-IE-specific JavaScript with only Microsoft documentation and only IE to test on
23:30:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I really need to find a non pen-and-paper way of doing maths...
23:31:55 <oklopol> my way is to close my eyes and lie down
23:32:46 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, OK, how do you get the gravity formula getting the vector properly? Can you work out the x and y components separately?" <<< idgi
23:33:16 <oklopol> for the gravity formula, all you need is mass and distance
23:33:33 <oklopol> distance is (a - b).calculate_my_distance()
23:33:49 <oklopol> where a and b are where the points are
23:34:10 <oklopol> and their masses can be calculated by doing a nop on their preset masses
23:36:26 <oklopol> i don't get it (the question)
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23:36:59 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, well, F=Gm_1m_2/r*2 only gives you the magnitude of the force.
23:37:23 <Phantom_Hoover> The direction needs to be worked out separately, or so I thought.
23:38:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Fortunately, this allows considerable streamlining of the code
23:40:17 <nooga> are #DNT! comments in my code clear enough to make ppl not to touch the commented code?
23:40:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Since I can take out the mess of trig I was previously using.
23:41:08 <elliott> <nooga> are #DNT! comments in my code clear enough to make ppl not to touch the commented code?
23:41:14 <elliott> nooga: the commented-out code?
23:41:23 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:41:30 <elliott> # if you get rid of this i will scalpel fire mucho gracias three dead no witnesses
23:41:53 <nooga> i will replace all #DNT! with this
23:42:54 <elliott> # sometimes when the people touch the code they end up in a lake disembowelled if the glove fits you must acquit it fits and i'm acquitted. sometimes this happens
23:43:25 <nooga> singletons in Ruby are just unfair
23:43:27 <nooga> class Klass include Singleton
23:45:28 <elliott> pikhq: why the space why the awesome
23:46:55 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, FWIW, working out the orbit is trivial no matter what dimension it is.
23:55:32 <Phantom_Hoover> In 4 or more dimensions, they decay to escapes or collisions, while in 2D you tend to get flowery patterns with wildly varying distances.
23:55:49 -!- cheater00 has joined.
23:56:32 <pikhq> elliott: Gates to eliminate mosquito-born diseases via genetic engineering.
23:56:41 <pikhq> I think "Awesome." is merited.
23:57:00 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, but does he still use Windows?
23:57:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Beat you to it.
23:57:33 <pikhq> I've got to give Gates credit: he uses his wealth damned well.
23:57:45 <Phantom_Hoover> So that he's remembered as the man who killed all the mosquitoes with their bare hands, not the man who RUINED FOREVER the home computer market
23:59:13 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: He's also funding golden rice.
23:59:25 <elliott> pikhq: I'd just eliminate the mosquito entirely personally.
23:59:56 <pikhq> elliott: Mosquitos serve an important part of the foodchain.
00:00:03 <elliott> (Do it like smallpox, keep the last remaining mosquitos in tiny metal cages forever! Mwahaha!)
00:00:20 <elliott> pikhq: There are a lot of people in the field advocating for the eradication of mosquitos.
00:00:45 <elliott> Wikipedia cites http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100721/full/466432a.html.
00:00:48 <pikhq> How do you get around how many species use mosquitos as a food source?
00:01:27 <pikhq> Well, aside from just saying "Well, nothing eats *primarily* mosquitos, so fuck it"?
00:01:39 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100721/full/466432a.html
00:01:54 <elliott> When I link to a URL, I won't continue talking until everyone reads it :P
00:01:58 <elliott> Otherwise that's just pointless.
00:02:19 <pikhq> elliott: I've read said article before.
00:03:17 <pikhq> elliott: It would seem their standpoint is "doesn't hurt anything humans depend on too badly. Fuck biodiversity."
00:03:39 <elliott> pikhq: Uhh, according to *my* eyes, it said "Shit would adapt."
00:05:16 <elliott> pikhq: But, uh... if you give me a choice between no motherfucking mosquitos and hence no motherfucking mosquito diseases and ~biodiversity~...
00:05:27 <elliott> I might just make the exception.
00:06:31 <pikhq> elliott: How's about we just move everyone off of Earth.
00:06:56 <elliott> pikhq: Sure; meanwhile, in the realm of things that are, in the current climate, actually feasible... we could just kill all the mosquitos.
00:07:09 <pikhq> Or all the humans.
00:07:19 -!- augur has joined.
00:07:20 <pikhq> (would take just a few seconds, Obama!)
00:10:50 <oklopol> killing all the humans wouldn't harm humans?
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00:12:27 <elliott> oklopol: nothing could harm us, we'd be dead! DUH
00:12:51 <pikhq> oklopol: Oh, it would harm the humans. But end all possibility for future harm.
00:13:17 <zzo38> I am not advocating for the eradication of mosquitos. I am against it. If you eradicate any species, extincting people (humans) is the only thing that would work, and it is not time for that either.
00:13:40 <pikhq> zzo38: I'm 100% in favor of eradicating many species of disease.
00:13:45 <pikhq> Say, each and every one of the fuckers.
00:15:03 <Gregor> It is the nineties, and there is time for effing up all ecosystems by removing diseases.
00:15:42 <calamous> I defer to Carl Segan on this matter
00:16:09 <pikhq> Gregor: How would it eff up ecosystems to remove all human diseases?
00:16:09 <zzo38> I say no! It won't work! You will just mess up everything, regardless of whether or not it is successful.
00:16:17 <pikhq> Gregor: Aside from the harm that humans themselves would cause?
00:16:27 <Gregor> pikhq: Many "human" diseases infect more than just humans.
00:16:31 <elliott> zzo38: You might get listened to more if you gave arguments, btw.
00:16:55 <pikhq> Gregor: Bah. We should move everyone off of the planet, and be disease-free space people.
00:17:10 <calamous> pikhq: Removing all the human diseases may lead to human overpopulation.
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00:17:58 <pikhq> calamous: Only a bit faster than what we already have...
00:18:08 <elliott> overpopulation isn't a problem with space colonisation
00:18:26 <pikhq> calamous: Honestly, we're going to be pushing the point where food, water, and space are issues in not too long.
00:18:43 <pikhq> (and, of course, have in certain regions already)
00:18:48 <elliott> pikhq: http://sprunge.us/QeMZ
00:18:49 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, human is the biggest problem of the world, so if anyone who disagrees that you should not mess up the everything else nature, those people can be put to space, and then die from lack of air and gravity and stuff (unless they already have protection against these things)
00:19:24 <elliott> zzo38: i strongly disagree that humans are the biggest problem in the world.
00:19:24 <calamous> pikhq: Having diseases exist are good because humans with weak immune systems won't pass their genes on.
00:19:37 <Sgeo> Is zzo38 a VHEMT person?
00:19:41 <elliott> also, you're foolish for thinking that pikhq didn't mean to a planet.
00:19:59 <elliott> calamous: without disease there is no use for an immune system.
00:20:12 <elliott> calamous: also, what about all the diseases people get after they're 35 or so?
00:20:35 <calamous> elliott: diseases will always form, there will be new diseases and if your immune system hasn't fought a dieases which is similar, it will take its toll on you.
00:20:36 <olsner> you mean diseases like AGE?
00:20:38 <zzo38> elliott: If there is no diseases, then maybe diseases will be made up by the new environment and stuff, or even by other people.
00:20:41 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, they can't care for their children and grandchildren.
00:20:46 <pikhq> elliott: Well, I would also accept colonisation of unplaneted space. Except that a lack of gravity well makes things much harder.
00:20:47 <elliott> olsner: there is no such thing as "dying of old age" :)
00:20:52 <zzo38> Sgeo: What is a VHEMT person?
00:21:09 <elliott> calamous: Careful with "always" there.
00:21:24 <Sgeo> Believes that people shouldn't breed, and humanity should go extinct (gradually, as no new people replace the dying)
00:21:33 <Sgeo> And not forcing it
00:21:40 <elliott> I can perfectly well imagine a scenario in which humans are completely free of disease.
00:21:56 <elliott> zzo38: VHEMT = Voluntary Human Extension Movement.
00:22:00 <calamous> elliott: as time goes to infinity the chances of it happening increase.
00:22:02 <elliott> zzo38: VHEMT = Voluntary Human Extinction Movement.
00:22:09 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure they're opposed to mass murdering everyone
00:22:10 <Phantom_Hoover> When the entire population consists of people over 60, you can't run a society.
00:22:21 <elliott> calamous: that is not true at all and shows your lack of understanding of probability
00:22:27 <pikhq> calamous: Except that humans kinda modify their own environment. :)
00:22:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, not to any degree required for the billions left alive.
00:22:30 <Sgeo> Well, depends how healthy those 60 year olds are
00:22:41 <elliott> calamous: you can't win the debate by pulling out "as time goes to infinity"...
00:22:41 <zzo38> Sgeo: I am believe a bit different. In my opinion it is your individual choice breed or not. But you have to accept the consequences either way whatever it is.
00:23:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but eventually there will be a point at which there aren't enough people able to operate things.
00:23:19 <elliott> calamous: As time goes to infinity your mother. Did I just win the argument, then?
00:23:37 <calamous> elliott: I used the word "always" to mean extremely probable in that previous context.
00:23:50 <calamous> elliott: I don't think its so black and white and "winning" or "losing" the argument
00:23:54 <pikhq> calamous: As time goes to infinity my pants leap 2 feet to the left. Therefore, I am not wearing any pants.
00:24:00 <Sgeo> I don't think they particularly thought of that
00:24:10 <elliott> calamous: Actually, I believe that the most likely scenario in the future, whatever it is, will have no diseases affecting humans.
00:24:19 <elliott> Since I view human extinction as quite likely.
00:24:37 <Sgeo> elliott, on what timeframe... if I'm not still on ignore
00:24:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sure I did.
00:25:10 <elliott> I didn't say I think it was the most likely outcome.
00:25:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, they didn't.
00:25:20 <elliott> I've thought this for ages.
00:25:40 <pikhq> elliott: Well, it's either we'll have human extinction or we'll become highly aware of the consequences of running our society and actually deal with it...
00:25:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but I'm vaguely interested and I feel slightly sorry for him.
00:26:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You could use COBOL to code the Singularity. Then we'd have no disease.
00:26:05 <elliott> And it'd be readable, too.
00:26:05 <pikhq> Here's hoping we don't keep the "rape the earth" thing up; it'll fuck us in the end.
00:26:15 <calamous> I think nature is too complex for anyone here to reason about correctly.
00:26:34 <elliott> calamous: Argumentum ad "oh, it's beyond our understanding; we can't use logic and reason to argue about it".
00:26:43 <elliott> calamous: I reject your pseudo-fallacy.
00:27:20 <pikhq> calamous: So, you're anti-science then.
00:27:25 <Sgeo> "What old languages are still in use in some way shape or form?" "COBOL" "You must love COBOL"
00:27:34 <calamous> pikhq: Why would you suggest that?
00:27:58 <Phantom_Hoover> calamous, because science is *about* reasoning about nature correctly.
00:28:06 <pikhq> Science is based around the idea that we *can* make empirical observations about the world around us and reason about it correctly.
00:28:08 <calamous> pikhq: I'm not anti-science, I'm completely pro-science. However, I think the arguments and models that these statements are made in are too limited to be of any use.
00:28:56 <Phantom_Hoover> calamous, I suppose you're an anthropogenic global warming denialist, then?
00:29:20 <zzo38> It reminds me of some fake news show on CBC radio where the entire universe was destroyed. One guy wanted to go to the zoo but now they complain they can't, because the zoo doesn't exist, and neither do they, so therefore they are unable to complain, either.
00:29:40 <calamous> Phantom_Hoover: I am not. I believe that it is caused by anthropogenic effecs (i.e. humans polluting)
00:30:05 <zzo38> calamous: Science is good, but science is not everything, there is also philosophy.
00:30:08 <Phantom_Hoover> calamous, but the climate is so COMPLEX! How can we reason about it correctly?
00:31:20 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Well, yes, of course.
00:31:33 <oklopol> rape victims always become rapists in the end
00:31:36 <calamous> Phantom_Hoover: Many things are complex, and there are many different models to reason about nature and climate. I believe the models, heurostics, and methods used by the climate scientists are suffecient to conclude that humans have this effect. However, I think the models, and methods used here to reason about deases are insuffiecent to caputre its compelxity
00:31:42 <oklopol> "<pikhq> Here's hoping we don't keep the "rape the earth" thing up; it'll fuck us in the end."
00:33:17 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6E5pfJEROA
00:33:28 <elliott> calamous: Actually, my prediction that it is unlikely that disease will affect humans in the future involves no model of diseases.
00:34:26 <calamous> elliott: ok, if you think your reasoning and logic to reach this conclusion is rigorous I respect your result.
00:34:36 <elliott> pikhq: Quick! Name some common things a software install procedure might do rather than copying files... i.e. what should I be prepared to do when I uninstall, my mind's drawing a blank at bad software :-)
00:34:38 <calamous> Phantom_Hoover: You asked who I was, but who are you?
00:35:07 <elliott> calamous: It's more back-of-the-envelope: I think that either human extinction or something that will make disease completely irrelevant -- e.g. Singularity -- is likely to happen.
00:36:02 <Sgeo> They actually serve that food?
00:36:03 <calamous> elliott: I think that human extinction is a definate posability
00:36:48 <coppro> I think that human extinction is a definite integral
00:36:58 <pikhq> elliott: Create users.
00:37:18 <elliott> pikhq: hmm, I wouldn't feel comfortable deleting users in an uninstall procedure
00:37:19 <pikhq> elliott: Edit config files.
00:37:20 <calamous> coppro: Are there two different spellings of the word that sounds like definate?
00:37:28 <elliott> config files, ok, there's little i can do about that :)
00:37:43 <Sgeo> Anything bigger than the Single Bypass Burger is too big for my jaws
00:37:44 <coppro> calamous: definate is not a word
00:37:44 <elliott> calamous: definate isn't the correct spelling, definite is. not that it matters
00:37:45 <pikhq> elliott: Replace a version of a library with a different one.
00:37:54 <pikhq> (Looking at *you*, Nvidia!)
00:37:56 <elliott> pikhq: I mean stuff outside "change shit in $PREFIX".
00:38:01 <elliott> pikhq: I set --prefix=/opt/pkgname.
00:38:05 <elliott> Hopefully nothing would do *that*.
00:38:32 <calamous> elliott: strange, I could have sword I cliked my spell checker when there was red underlying on it. lol, I may have clicked add to dictionary
00:39:07 <calamous> Anyway, I apoligize for my spelling. just read what I say outloud to figure out what I was going for.
00:39:12 <pikhq> elliott: Some packages insist on a specific install dir.
00:39:25 <pikhq> elliott: IRAF, for instance, goes into /iraf.
00:39:28 <elliott> pikhq: such packages are not currently supported by inst(1) :)
00:39:48 <elliott> cal153: *apologise, *out loud. I do try not to be a pedant, I swear!
00:39:50 <pikhq> Okay, so you're going to say "fuck retarded shit"? That solves your problems.
00:40:22 <oklopol> "<calamous> Phantom_Hoover: You asked who I was, but who are you?" <<< a regular
00:40:34 <pikhq> Hmm. Well, Debian doesn't have support for it, so I think you're good.
00:40:43 <elliott> pikhq: Have support for what? IRAF?
00:41:01 <pikhq> I think you're allowed to not package things Debian refuses to.
00:41:30 <elliott> pikhq: Right now I still have to extend it -- to work with stuff that does stupid stuff, to be robust, to support repositories, and also to support non-autoconf based build systems (automatically. Yes, automatically.)
00:41:36 <elliott> pikhq: For instance, git has a plain Makefile system.
00:41:44 <elliott> $ inst ... --configure-args
00:41:55 <pikhq> ... Non-autoconf build systems automatically?
00:42:04 <elliott> pikhq: Also hopefully I can detect that there's a "prefix" var and have it pass on prefix=/opt/git-version.
00:42:15 <elliott> I refuse to let any system confound my program.
00:42:15 <pikhq> That's going to be impossible in the general case. Feasible for well-behaved Makefiles, though.
00:42:33 <elliott> You could even rename --prefix to --prefox in autoconf and this wouldn't work; who cares? :)
00:42:39 <pikhq> I suggest you allow a build script for the completely whacko packages out there.
00:42:52 <elliott> pikhq: Uhh, those won't be part of inst, which works without any third-party materials instead :P
00:42:58 <elliott> pikhq: A lot of stuff I do here might actually be reused in the *actual* package manager.
00:43:03 <elliott> Talk-to-autoconf logic and the like.
00:43:14 <calamous> So, sorry to interrupt the flow of the conversation. But can anyone explain this: root@neutrino:~# dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/vdb1 bs=1M count=16 conv=sync
00:43:15 <calamous> 16777216 bytes (17 MB) copied, 1.73958 s, 9.6 MB/s
00:43:15 <calamous> root@neutrino:~# dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/vdb bs=1M count=16 conv=sync
00:43:20 <calamous> 16777216 bytes (17 MB) copied, 0.210978 s, 79.5 MB/s
00:43:24 <pikhq> Okay, then I suggest you use this sort of thing as an automatic package-creator then. :)
00:43:31 <calamous> That is, why its slow to write to the partition, but fastre to write to the disk?
00:43:55 <elliott> calamous: Maybe /dev/vdb has some crazy kind of partition table where a partition is, I don't know, at every fibonacci byte and no others?
00:44:05 <elliott> pikhq: This sort of thing, yes, but nothing this crazy :P
00:44:16 <fizzie> Maybe some sort of unaligned-write slowness too?
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00:44:27 <elliott> calamous: What is /dev/vdb?
00:44:36 <pikhq> calamous: Linux is probably already aware that you zero-filled a lot of it.
00:44:41 <calamous> its a virtio disk (I'm running debian inside qemu-kvm)
00:44:56 <calamous> pikhq: Nope, I can repeat this experiment many times with the same result
00:45:14 <pikhq> calamous: Virtio is doing something bizarre.
00:45:26 <calamous> fizzie: the unaligned write may be an issue
00:45:54 <calamous> pikhq: Thats what I thought, but not even using virtio, I can make the same results happen ndb
00:46:27 <calamous> instead of /dev/vdb1 it will be /dev/ndb0p1
00:46:57 <calamous> fizzie: both the virtio and the ndb have qemu qcow2 as its backend, I wonder if the partition just isn't aligned. I'm going to try and check that, thatsk for the idea
00:47:32 <elliott> pikhq: Spot the bug: if '--help' or '-h' in configure_args:
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00:48:56 <fizzie> elliott: If you want to write things like that, maybe you should use Plain English instead!
00:49:27 <elliott> Well, it can do (x | 5) > y.
00:49:41 <calamous> fizzie: holy crap! I think you're right. I had fdisk align it differently, and I'm getting much better speeds.
00:49:44 <elliott> One would assume it could also do its equivalent of ('--help' | '-h') in configure_args.
00:49:50 <elliott> calamous: SSD by any chance?
00:50:15 <calamous> elliott: nope just a regular HD. I do have an SDD and I had to partition it with fdisk -S 32 -H 32 to get the right alignment for the erasure size
00:51:51 <fizzie> It could be something gcow2-related sillitude when it comes to alignment; I don't really know the details on how it works. Still, a pretty dramatic difference there.
00:52:18 <elliott> Fun fact: There is a semi-sort-of-popular piece of software written in Icon!
00:52:22 <elliott> Yes, noweb is written in Icon./
00:52:59 <fizzie> elliott: Well, fortunately "if any(x in configure_args for x in ('--help', '-h')):" is oh-so-elegant also.
00:53:12 <elliott> if '--help' in configure_args or '-h' in configure_args:
00:53:28 <fizzie> Noooo, but you're repeating configure_args!
00:53:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Why bother?
00:54:25 <elliott> Things that confuse me: Programs that take longer to install than build.
00:56:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, Icon is awesome!
00:56:52 <elliott> every write(someFunction(i to j))
00:57:05 <olsner> gcc is 50% slower than clang at building bochs: takes 15s instead of 10s!
00:58:05 <pikhq> Is Bochs really that small?
00:58:21 <olsner> and the ./configure takes about 10s for both
00:58:31 <elliott> pikhq: I am fairly sure that Bochs is one gigantic if/else if/else structure.
00:58:34 <elliott> It's too slow to be a switch.
00:58:59 <pikhq> GCC will translate gigantic if/else if/else branches to a jump table.
00:59:27 <fizzie> Today I tried to install "gv" from macports: it insisted on installing (by compiling from sources) both Perl 5.8 and Python 2.6 as dependencies.
00:59:28 <olsner> well, I haven't enabled all the features - enabling x86-64 added like 2s on the compile time
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01:00:36 <elliott> fizzie: Ruby indirectly depends on Perl. :)
01:00:56 <elliott> pikhq: Shouldn't that be -P1 for pessimise?
01:01:13 <fizzie> pikhq: Not if the if-else branches test against == foo[x] for a non-constant foo, I wouldn't think.
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01:01:50 <elliott> fizzie: which would require deliberate and wilful stupidity :D
01:02:12 <fizzie> elliott: But then you can reconfigure your opcodes at runtime, you see!
01:03:02 <elliott> "IF YOU ARE USING A BOOTLEG COPY OF "GETTING STARTED WITH PYPARSING" A DONATION HERE IS STRONGLY ENCOURAGED!"
01:03:03 <oklopol> i'm a balloon i'm a shoe i'm a mice lamp made of poo
01:03:37 <oklopol> i just realized you need to say BALloon or that doesn't work
01:04:03 <elliott> pikhq: Apparently, "make install" can fail if you redirect stdout and stderr to a bit bucket.
01:04:41 <oklopol> in my defense, you are talking about really complicated stuff
01:10:11 <oklopol> i would say i'm the oklopol of this channel
01:10:39 <elliott> wow, Phantom_Hoover is post-oklopol?
01:10:47 <elliott> i can barely comprehend the concept
01:10:49 <oklopol> just like elliott is the elliot, oerjan is the oerjan, and you are a guy
01:10:55 <elliott> *elliott*elliott*elliott*elliott*elliott*elliott*elliott*elliott*elliott
01:11:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You came here after oklopol stopped coming here.
01:11:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I don't recall him not having been here for a significant period of time.
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01:20:35 <oklopol> i think i was away most of the summer?
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01:30:23 <nooga> "Hilter be Damned. This was our sign since 1922."
01:30:37 <nooga> http://www.sharenator.com/All_the_world_loved_Swastika_before_WWII/
01:32:47 <nooga> i just can't unassign swastika=hitler in my brain
01:33:21 <oklopol> me neither, that's why that was interesting when i learned it when i was 2
01:33:36 <oklopol> ;DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
01:34:00 <oklopol> i want to be an APPROACHABLE ass. that's why i'm so confusing.
01:34:15 <oklopol> "approachable ass" sounds a bit questionable now that i think about it
01:37:28 <Gregor> This episode of Dudley Do-Right had continuity with the LAST episode of Dudley Do-Right.
01:38:50 <oklopol> so basically now they can't change the characters or anything, ever, because they'll have to end to story with what happened before this episode
01:39:12 <oklopol> and introduce time machines at some point
01:39:25 <Sgeo> Dudley Do-Right?
01:41:08 <Gregor> oklopol: By "last" I mean "previous"
01:41:47 <Gregor> Sgeo: It's part of Rocky and Bullwinkle, which is on Hulu now :P
01:42:45 <elliott> oklopol: that would be amazing.
01:42:55 <oklopol> Gregor: thanks for clearing that up
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01:47:15 <Sgeo> Gregor, I am sufficiently amused by this
01:47:46 <pikhq> I ♥ Rocky and Bullwinkle.
01:49:22 <elliott> pikhq: http://sprunge.us/OLIG
01:49:41 <elliott> pikhq: Am I, or am I not, a god among men?
01:51:01 <pikhq> elliott: That is awesome.
01:51:18 <elliott> pikhq: QUICK LINK ME SOME SOFTWARE.
01:52:18 <pikhq> elliott: Go go ultimate test! ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcc/gcc-4.5.1/gcc-core-4.5.1.tar.bz2
01:52:35 <elliott> pikhq: Hahaha no fuck you I don't have that kind of CPU. (Okay, maybe later.)
01:52:42 <elliott> pikhq: I am not sure curl does ftp:// :P
01:52:49 <elliott> pikhq: Link me to Emacs or something.
01:52:50 <Sgeo> I think elliott might like to know that there's a new Sam Hughes NaNoWriMo
01:52:59 <pikhq> ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/bash/bash-4.1.tar.gz
01:53:10 * elliott uses http:// instead for now
01:53:30 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, you can pass configure arguments by just ... giving them to inst.
01:53:34 <elliott> (Have to be after the URL, though.)
01:53:52 <elliott> pikhq: When I support non-autoconf builds, that'll instead be make arguments. And indeed, --help will probably cat INSTALL; failing that, README.
01:54:27 <elliott> pikhq: Let's see if bash works :P
01:54:39 <pikhq> elliott: That is definitely an awesome thing you have gotten there.
01:55:03 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ /opt/bash-4.1/bin/bash
01:55:04 <pikhq> elliott: Even as it stands, it's quite nice as a supplement to a distro's package manager.
01:55:08 <elliott> pikhq: Well, that was painless.
01:55:27 <zzo38> nooga: I can unassign swastika=hitler in my mind. To me, only the 45-degrees reversed swastika is Hitler's swastika. The normal swastika is horizontal and vertical lines and is unrelated to Hitler.
01:55:31 <elliott> pikhq: I'm gonna try Emacs now.
01:55:48 <pikhq> In a single day you have made a package manager that has packages for everything using autoconf. :P
01:56:15 <elliott> pikhq: Without dependencies :P
01:56:31 <pikhq> Slackware doesn't do dependencies. Fits right in.
01:56:46 <elliott> :~$ inst http://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/emacs/emacs-23.2.tar.bz2
01:56:47 <elliott> * Downloading emacs 23.2...
01:56:52 <elliott> Uhh, wow, what happened there.
01:57:12 <elliott> You know what it should look like :P##
01:58:18 <elliott> coppro: (why do you have that many windows?)
01:58:29 <elliott> pikhq: I misunderestimated emacs! It errors out and it turns out my error-printing code is BORKEN because Python is made of liquid suck.
01:58:39 <coppro> elliott: cuz i am awesome
01:58:46 <elliott> pikhq: (Python's "make install" fails if you do stdout=subprocess.PIPE. I'm serious.)
01:58:55 <elliott> pikhq: (It works with stdout=open('/dev/null', 'w'))
01:59:05 <elliott> pikhq: Welp, dropping Python support for Emacs debugging temporarily :P
01:59:32 <elliott> pikhq: Why the heck do downloads with curl go faster the second time?
01:59:35 <elliott> It isn't caching it or anything.
02:00:30 <elliott> pikhq: Probably I'm just missing a dependency.
02:00:39 <elliott> configure: error: The following required libraries were not found:
02:00:39 <elliott> libXpm libgif/libungif libtiff
02:00:39 <elliott> Maybe some development libraries/packages are missing?
02:00:39 <elliott> If you don't want to link with them give
02:00:39 <elliott> --with-xpm=no --with-gif=no --with-tiff=no
02:00:50 <elliott> pikhq: Actually I really should cache the tarballs. But I don't, so ha!
02:00:55 <Gregor> Buying a transparent melodica was not a great idea.
02:01:03 <elliott> Gregor: "It murdered my family."
02:01:13 <Gregor> elliott: It's full of spit.
02:01:17 <Gregor> elliott: Clearly-visible spit.
02:01:22 <coppro> also <3 the Look Around You videos
02:01:28 <Gregor> elliott: Which can only be spit, because it's a friggin' aerophone.
02:01:40 <elliott> coppro: First series or second?
02:02:02 <coppro> elliott: I just youtube them, so I don't know the distinction
02:02:18 <elliott> coppro: First series is the ones that look like school videos; second series is like a magazine show.
02:02:51 <elliott> pikhq: Let's try that again.
02:02:54 <Sgeo> Gregor, http://qntm.org/mcadamis
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02:04:48 <coppro> elliott: ah. first then.
02:05:14 <elliott> coppro: good; they're better
02:05:25 <elliott> coppro: although the second series contains the gem "Thanks, Tchaikovsky. Thaikovsky."
02:05:38 <elliott> coppro: (talking to the holographic resurrection of Tchaikovsky, who is judging the music contest)
02:06:45 <Gregor> Huh. The easily-removable case seems to serve no purpose other than catching an absurd amount of spit.
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02:07:06 <elliott> Gregor: It's the spitcase.
02:07:40 <Sgeo> Somebody's baby is crying. Is it yours?
02:12:19 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ inst http://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/emacs/emacs-23.2.tar.bz2* Downloading emacs 23.2...
02:12:19 <elliott> ######################################################################## 100.0%
02:12:19 <elliott> * Configuring emacs 23.2...
02:12:20 <elliott> * Installing emacs 23.2...
02:12:24 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ /opt/emacs-23.2/bin/emacs -nw
02:12:26 <elliott> pikhq: That was real difficult, that.
02:13:55 <elliott> pikhq: Also works without -nw; GTK and all.
02:14:11 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ ls -l /opt
02:14:11 <elliott> drwxr-xr-x 4 root root 4096 Nov 7 00:54 bash-4.1
02:14:11 <elliott> drwxr-xr-x 6 root root 4096 Nov 7 01:07 emacs-23.2
02:14:11 <elliott> drwxr-xr-x 6 root root 4096 Nov 7 00:48 Python-2.7
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02:17:10 <elliott> Gregor: Is egobfi autotools-based? :P
02:17:58 <Gregor> No, but it uses autotools.
02:19:11 <elliott> Gregor: That's... what I meant.
02:19:18 <Gregor> I know, I'm just being pedantic :P
02:19:25 <elliott> Gregor: NOW WATCH AS I INSTALL YOUR PROGRAM WITH A SINGLE COMMAND
02:19:41 <Gregor> ./configure --prefix=/usr && make all install
02:19:54 <elliott> Gregor: That involves downloading and extracting it.
02:20:02 <elliott> Gregor: Erm, link me to the latest egobfi? :P
02:20:25 <elliott> [ ] egobf-0.7.1.tar.bz2 28-Jul-2005 09:26 73K tar archive
02:20:56 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ inst http://esolangs.org/files/brainfuck/impl/egobf-0.7.1.tar.bz2
02:20:56 <elliott> * Downloading egobf 0.7.1...
02:20:56 <elliott> ######################################################################## 100.0%
02:20:56 <elliott> * Configuring egobf 0.7.1...
02:20:58 <elliott> * Installing egobf 0.7.1...
02:21:02 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ ls /opt/egobf-0.7.1/bin
02:21:04 <elliott> egobfc egobfc2m egobfi16 egobfi32 egobfi64 egobfi8 egobfi-wib
02:21:06 <elliott> Gregor: I HAVE CONQUERED YOUR PROGRAM
02:21:21 <Gregor> Can it do hg clone? :P
02:21:28 <olsner> grrrr, "interrupt(long mode): gate descriptor is not valid sys seg"
02:23:05 <elliott> Gregor: It will be able to.
02:23:52 <elliott> $ /opt/egobf-0.7.1/bin/egobfc2m
02:23:56 <elliott> Gregor: AMD64 fuck yeah :P
02:24:09 <Gregor> elliott: WELCOME TO THE PAST!
02:24:22 <Gregor> elliott: Tell me when it can do hg clone :P
02:24:55 <elliott> Gregor: https://codu.org/projects/plof/hg/index.cgi/archive/tip.tar.bz2 This would work, except that it'd think it was installing a package called "tip", version [ERROR] :P
02:25:16 <Gregor> I was going to say http://codu.org/projects/fythe/hg/index.cgi/archive/tip.tar.bz2 anyway
02:25:32 <elliott> Gregor: I'll add a hackish override, just to prove that it's easy to make *that* work :P
02:25:35 <elliott> Gregor: Wait, is it autotools based?
02:25:45 <elliott> I don't yet support other build systems (but will).
02:25:54 <Gregor> Yeah, but you'll need to autoconf it first, plus the root isn't the root of the hg repo, so you'll fail on SO MANY LEVELS :P
02:26:04 <elliott> Gregor: It has autoreconf.
02:26:20 <elliott> if not configure and 'configure.ac' in files:
02:26:20 <elliott> # FIXME: possible infinite loop
02:26:20 <elliott> return find_configure(files)
02:26:21 <Gregor> Does it have "figure out that I need to cd hg/cfythe"? :P
02:26:51 <elliott> Gregor: Actually fythe-Repository-73c33b3229c9/cfythe.
02:27:17 <elliott> Gregor: I'll try just plain plof :P
02:27:35 <elliott> Argh, wait, that won't work either because hgwebthing's archive structure sucks.
02:27:38 <elliott> Gregor: Fuck you and your siblings.
02:27:48 <Gregor> git is for massochists.
02:28:22 <Gregor> Hence why I use GNU/Linux/X11/XFCE, and not UNIX ;)
02:29:01 <elliott> Gregor: GNU on the other hand is for masochistic fools. :)
02:29:28 <pikhq> Gregor: That's not exactly not-UNIX.
02:29:39 <elliott> pikhq: Link me gcc-core, again?
02:30:06 <elliott> Gregor: btw, *Unix; the fact that the name was originally set as <smallcaps>unix</smallcaps> doesn't change the non-typeset name :)
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02:30:18 <elliott> Gregor: *<smallcaps>Unix</smallcaps>
02:30:23 <elliott> Is how it was originally typeset.
02:30:25 <Gregor> elliott: The fact that it's a trademark does X-P
02:30:37 <elliott> Gregor: I don't consider modern "UNIX" to be very UNIXy; it's just POSIX.
02:30:42 <pikhq> ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gcc/gcc-4.5.1/gcc-core-4.5.1.tar.bz2
02:30:52 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, modern UNIX sucks, I was using the caps to be an ass :P
02:30:56 * pikhq flips off Win2k again.
02:31:00 <Gregor> In that everything that's officially UNIX sucks.
02:31:02 <zzo38> You have to write it in small caps? So we can make a TeX macro \UNIX which types it in small caps.
02:31:03 <elliott> Gregor: I mean something Thompson, Ritchie, Kernighan and McIlroy would be proud of :P
02:31:12 <elliott> zzo38: It's trademarked as just the shouty "UNIX".
02:31:16 <Gregor> DUDE UNIX.ORG IS STILL USING COMIC SANS
02:31:30 <elliott> To portray the... solidity of UNIX.
02:31:34 <pikhq> It can't autodetect the network card qemu uses.
02:31:37 <elliott> It's a crappy font whatever it is.
02:31:44 <elliott> pikhq: -win2k-hack for the install btw :P
02:32:19 <pikhq> elliott: I've got a Win2K install without network drivers.
02:32:20 <zzo38> I sometimes get lossy connections on IRC.
02:32:31 <pikhq> Well, without functioning network drivers.
02:32:34 <zzo38> PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please review this file: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/litprog/hacks/litproghacks.tex If you have any ideas or any contributions to make, please tell me about it!
02:32:45 * pikhq tries *forcing* it to ne2k_pci...
02:32:54 <elliott> pikhq: Just screening the archive to see if my program will like it :P
02:33:37 <elliott> pikhq: I sure hope gcc builds with -j3.
02:33:44 <elliott> (Yes, I hardcode the -j for now. Shut up :P)
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02:34:03 <zzo38> (Why did it type "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" twice this time?)
02:34:07 <pikhq> Yup, "-net nic,model=ne2k_pci -net user" makes it work.
02:34:18 <elliott> pikhq: What could possibly go wrong :P
02:34:24 -!- rodgort has joined.
02:34:48 <elliott> pikhq: --configure could go wrong! I wonder what dependencies I'm missing! Time to break Python compilation by making it give debug!
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02:37:40 <elliott> configure: error: Building GCC requires GMP 4.2+, MPFR 2.3.1+ and MPC 0.8.0+.
02:37:40 <elliott> Try the --with-gmp, --with-mpfr and/or --with-mpc options to specify
02:37:40 <elliott> their locations. Source code for these libraries can be found at
02:37:40 <elliott> their respective hosting sites as well as at
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02:39:15 <olsner> multi-precision complex?
02:39:28 <elliott> probably gmp has it or whatever :P
02:41:57 <elliott> pikhq: * Building gcc-core 4.5.1...
02:42:26 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, yeah, GCC now has dependencies. 3 of them.
02:42:43 <pikhq> You also need a libc.
02:43:02 <pikhq> ... And a compiler, and a shell, and a Make. And tar and gzip.
02:44:21 <elliott> pikhq: Those are new, eh? :P
02:44:27 <elliott> pikhq: It uses the Boehm GC, doesn't it? Guess it bundles it.
02:45:43 <elliott> pikhq: I wish make(1) had a progress bar :P
02:48:28 <zzo38> elliott: Then put a progress bar?
02:48:55 <elliott> zzo38: That would be basically impossible with make's design. And no, I won't write my own.
02:49:00 <elliott> pikhq: gcc sure does build slowly :P
02:49:03 <pikhq> Yeah, it has Boehm GC built in.
02:49:05 <elliott> pikhq: Man, this is so convenient already.
02:49:13 <olsner> echo "0%"; make; echo "100%"
02:51:21 <olsner> aha, of course it doesn't work - my TSS sets all the RSP:s to 0
02:52:09 <olsner> and after doing some interrupting the stack pointer then ends up inside the memory-mapped apic registers
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02:53:56 <olsner> easily accessible build logs will be useful
02:55:15 <elliott> olsner: It prints the output when there are any, it's just that the way I do it inexplicably breaks Python 2.7's install step so that it just sits there forever after installing, doing nothing :P
02:55:21 <elliott> I need to figure something out, but for now...
02:56:25 <olsner> it's probably something obvious that Python is doing wrong (misdetecting whether stdout is a terminal, perhaps)
02:57:49 <elliott> olsner: Python's *make install*?
02:57:52 <elliott> olsner: It's autoconf-based!
02:58:01 <elliott> olsner: And it installs perfectly, it just hangs forever after and I have no idea why.
02:58:37 <elliott> what is wrong with gamers today: "Wait, 100? Like, one hundred? Shit that's ridiculous. And here I was thinking the 1000 save limit was lousy..."
02:59:06 <olsner> it wouldn't surprise me one bit if python has managed to break autoconf :)
03:03:51 <elliott> olsner is my favourite python hater
03:04:17 <elliott> not even /prog/ hates on guido as much as him!
03:04:36 <elliott> having said that i have no idea if /prog/ has stopped being limitlessly shitty since the last time
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03:07:01 <Sgeo> /r/programming ?
03:07:26 <elliott> http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1289093938/1-40 ;; lawl
03:08:08 <Sgeo> I guess elliott isn't really ignoring me, then
03:09:11 <olsner> elliott: I don't understand
03:09:26 <elliott> olsner: /prog/ rarely makes sense
03:10:48 * Sgeo goes to do homework
03:10:57 <elliott> pikhq: gcc builds so slowly ;__; and I know this will fail which is the worst part
03:12:10 <pikhq> Sgeo: So, definitely not Proggit.
03:12:40 -!- giovanni has quit (Quit: Sto andando via).
03:13:48 <elliott> <pikhq> Sgeo: So, definitely not Proggit.
03:14:04 <elliott> pikhq: Because: "What is a good place to discuss COBOL?"
03:15:00 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to SGEO.
03:15:01 <elliott> pikhq: MAKE GCC BUILD FASTER SO I CAN SEE ITS ERROR
03:15:04 <elliott> i think it may have actually frozen
03:15:06 <SGEO> Is XChat's ignore case-sensitive?
03:15:08 -!- SGEO has changed nick to Sgeo.
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03:15:32 <elliott> pikhq: I'm gonna try Perl.
03:15:38 <elliott> Even though I don't think Perl is autotools-based.
03:15:45 <zzo38> If XChat's ignore is case-sensitive, it is not following the IRC protocol properly.
03:15:49 <pikhq> It does do ./configure&&make&&make install though.
03:15:54 <pikhq> The configure script is hand-written.
03:16:48 <olsner> grrrr, it was working all along, but bochs' disassembler reports ud1 the same as ud2
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03:17:02 <elliott> zzo38: Presumably Sgeo talked?
03:17:09 <elliott> I still don't see his messages even with the irritating nick.
03:17:13 <elliott> pikhq: Does --prefix work? :P
03:17:19 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgep.
03:17:25 <Sgep> Does XChat track nick changes?
03:17:28 -!- Sgep has changed nick to Sgeo.
03:17:43 -!- augur has joined.
03:17:47 <Sgeo> Actually, it would be dumb for it not to, really
03:17:54 <zzo38> elliott: Yes Sgeo asked
03:18:42 <elliott> Sgeo: Apparently not, but cut it out.
03:18:45 <zzo38> I do not know the answer of the question but I know how the IRC protocol is supposed to work
03:19:12 <zzo38> elliott: Or ignore *!~Sgeo@* or *!*@*.dyn.optonline.net or whatever?
03:19:31 <elliott> That second ! is an exclamation mark.
03:20:00 <elliott> pikhq: elliott@dinky:~$ inst http://www.cpan.org/src/5.0/perl-5.12.2.tar.gz
03:20:00 <elliott> * Downloading perl 5.12.2...
03:20:02 <zzo38> If you ignore everything, what use is that for?
03:21:10 <elliott> if not configure and 'configure.ac' in files:
03:21:10 <elliott> NameError: global name 'configure' is not defined
03:21:16 <elliott> pikhq: Are you *sure* it's called "configure"?
03:21:21 <elliott> Not Configure or whatever?
03:21:57 <pikhq> elliott: Not entirely sure.
03:22:21 <elliott> # GNU configure-like front end to metaconfig's Configure.
03:22:27 <elliott> So I'll make sure that is the first option.
03:23:00 <elliott> Hmm, seems Configure will handle --prefix, so never mind.
03:23:54 <elliott> pikhq: Let's try that again!
03:24:22 <elliott> OSError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory
03:24:29 <elliott> stderr=open('/dev/null', 'w'))
03:24:40 <elliott> pikhq: 'pparently /dev/null in't a file
03:25:58 <elliott> configure = find_configure(files)
03:25:58 <elliott> run_silent('./configure', '--prefix=/opt/' + package_id, *configure_args)
03:26:41 <elliott> coppro: punctuation is for fags
03:28:01 <zzo38> elliott: Punctuation is for other people, too!
03:28:15 <elliott> zzo38 kuh punctuation is bad
03:28:27 <elliott> pikhq kuh lol perl requires dash capital D prefix equals for prefix, not dash dash prefix
03:28:41 <zzo38> I think punctuation is not bad if you use it good
03:29:15 <pikhq> Punctuation is great.
03:29:20 <pikhq> We should all use more of it.
03:29:43 <elliott> pikhq: Proto-proposal: If ./configure fails, try with -Dprefix= before giving up -)
03:29:51 <zzo38> Is,it,good;(if you Use like that)???????????????????????????????????????????????????????
03:29:53 <coppro> i am banning punctuation with this challen
03:29:57 <pikhq> .S>e<e_h'o^w_t%h#a@t_i-s?!?.,;:"`
03:30:05 <coppro> in the future we are coding only in cobol or lolcode
03:30:21 <zzo38> Punctuation is good if you use it good
03:30:59 <Sgeo> COBOL has punctuation
03:31:12 <elliott> Gregor: Google ad: "Want an aPad? 50% off"
03:31:17 <elliott> http://www.tradetang.com/?source=Google*Computer_C7_You_DAB_DAB_20101102&gclid=CPX0td3UjaUCFVhc4wodxRlBNg
03:31:31 <Gregor> IIRC, aPad is supposed to be one of the best ones.
03:31:38 <Gregor> The best ... fake ones :P
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03:35:11 <Gregor> Apparently they're making a Smurfs movie.
03:36:20 <elliott> Gregor: This summer... get ready... to MEET THE SMURFS!
03:37:03 <elliott> Gregor: Smurfette now has gigantic breasts. You know it's inevitable.
03:37:34 <pikhq> Hooray, the abomination is more so!
03:38:06 <elliott> Gregor: "It has been confirmed that Smurfette will be voiced by Katy Perry in the new movie."
03:38:36 <elliott> Gregor: Thing that just fleetingly passed through my head: "I kissed a Smurf and I liked it / ..."
03:38:59 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/47/The_smurfs_CGI.jpg
03:39:07 <Gregor> elliott: Ha! Ha! That reference to something pop-culture-related was probably humorous!
03:39:21 <pikhq> elliott: Smurfette is an abomination before God.
03:39:23 <elliott> Gregor: It is funny because it is a reference to a terrible, terrible, terribly popular "song" by Katy Perry!
03:39:40 <pikhq> elliott: Canonically. She was created by Gargamel.
03:40:00 <elliott> Gregor: You see, in the ORIGINAL, it's "I kissed a *girl* and I like it", and it is popular because it promotes the image that anyone who expresses any kind of bisexuality is a slut!
03:40:07 <elliott> Gregor: Now she is voicing Smurfette! Do you see my HILARITY here?
03:40:16 <elliott> BECAUSE THERE IS NO LIMIT TO IT, YOU SEE
03:40:29 <elliott> "Shrek 2 and Shrek the Third writers, David Stem and David Weiss wrote the screenplay" Oh boy, I can't wait
03:40:45 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
03:40:51 <pikhq> The derivativeness will be astounding.
03:41:32 <elliott> "The teaser trailer was released on June 16, 2010 and then was attached to Toy Story 3."
03:41:37 <elliott> Well, that'd ruin anyone's enjoyment.
03:43:11 <pikhq> "Now, before you watch this decent film, watch a preview for what happened when we missed the toilet while taking a dump!"
03:43:45 <elliott> pikhq: perl's configure script is... slow...
03:44:12 <elliott> pikhq: I think it actually froze there :P
03:44:39 <elliott> On some of the questions which ask for file or directory names you are allowed
03:44:40 <elliott> to use the ~name construct to specify the login directory belonging to "name",
03:44:40 <elliott> even if you don't have a shell which knows about that. Questions where this is
03:44:40 <elliott> allowed will be marked "(~name ok)".
03:44:40 <elliott> [Type carriage return to continue]
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03:46:15 <Gregor> Perl's cunfigure is really, really bad.
03:46:18 <elliott> pikhq: I'm trying ./configure.gnu instead :P
03:46:38 <elliott> But it also has configure.gnu, which is a ~wrapper~, so let's hope that ACTUALLY ACTS LIKE AUTOCONF RATHER THAN PROMPTING US FOR SHIT
03:48:24 <Gregor> configure.gnu doesn't prompt, no.
03:48:36 <zzo38> It is possible to make idea of a level in my game if you have any idea
03:53:16 <elliott> pikhq: Perl installing \o/
03:54:29 <zzo38> myndzi: What is that?
03:54:39 <elliott> zzo38: The rest of my \o/ man.
03:55:06 <zzo38> In what program does it align?
03:55:30 <zzo38> It does not align in this program, nor in the log files for this channel.
03:56:12 <elliott> pikhq: http://sprunge.us/VRKU
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03:56:29 <elliott> zzo38: It doesn't align because of the characters.
03:56:40 <elliott> In a client that shows those as spaces, and that aligns nicks to the left, it aligns.
03:56:54 <elliott> pikhq: Esperanto for "win"?
03:57:24 <elliott> augur: it configures, builds and installs any source tarball you link it!
03:57:42 <elliott> augur sounds super-excited about the prospect
03:58:10 <zzo38> This client hides the CTRL+O characters when /SET FORMAT + is on, but I can see them in the log file
03:58:18 <elliott> augur: but it's SUPER EXCITING
03:58:32 <elliott> nooga: yes it is. you're just boring
03:58:35 <zzo38> elliott: I think it won't work with any source files, some require manual setting too
03:58:51 <elliott> zzo38: Well, so far it only works with things based on autoconf.
03:58:59 <elliott> zzo38: But I'm going to extend it to plain Makefile solutions too, and SCons and CMake.
04:00:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:00:33 <Gregor> DOES IT USE CHECKINSTALL TO MAKE DISTRO PACKAGES
04:00:50 <zzo38> I think even with plain Makefile solutions, some will require manual setting too
04:02:05 <elliott> Gregor: NO IT INSTALLS TO /OPT/FOO, but it perfectly well could use checkinstall and that'll likely be an option you can set somewhere.
04:03:12 <elliott> pikhq: I need more software to install :P
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04:07:07 <Gregor> blaqkode is in Chicago 2™ (formerly Canada)
04:07:13 <Gregor> Or at least, so I assume by the hostname.
04:10:54 <elliott> He's black. They wouldn't let him in the US.
04:11:58 <myndzi> i could make it send straight spaces, but then it gets broken in mirc scripts with themes (quite a few)
04:12:06 <myndzi> i could send non-breaking spaces, but i don't like them
04:12:21 <myndzi> i could make it line up for right-aligned nicks but i don't use such a client ;)
04:12:26 <myndzi> nor do most people in most channels i'm in
04:12:35 <myndzi> same goes for nick prefixes
04:12:39 <myndzi> i can't make everybody happy :(
04:12:52 <elliott> mycroftiv: make it DETECT THE CLIENT!11
04:13:10 <myndzi> yeah, just as soon as you show me how to send selective channel messages on a per-client basis ;)
04:13:13 <zzo38> myndzi: No way should work for everyone, I think. My client will hide the CTRL+O characters
04:13:26 <myndzi> they are supposed to be hidden
04:13:33 <elliott> myndzi: zzo38's client actually shows the full hostname prefix, so, uh, yeah.
04:13:34 <myndzi> but they enable copy/paste in mirc to copy just the spaces
04:13:46 <zzo38> myndzi: You can send message to each user of course, but that won't do!
04:14:07 <myndzi> mass-notice the entire channel
04:14:12 <myndzi> every time someone sends a little dude
04:14:24 <zzo38> Of course it won't do!
04:14:25 <myndzi> not to mention clients handling notices differently :D
04:14:31 <zzo38> That is why you should not do like that!
04:14:48 <Gregor> blaqkode: Ohhh, should've known it was actually Chicago 2™ (formerly California)
04:16:36 -!- blaqkode has left (?).
04:16:57 <elliott> CTCP VERSION then notice :D
04:17:02 <zzo38> myndzi: My client handles notices the same way as everything else. It only handles a few things in a special way, actually (although it is possible to set filters and macros to use other things too)
04:17:28 <zzo38> And what things it handles in a special way depending on the /SET options!
04:19:00 <myndzi> i'll keep that in mind when i'm writing my special script after i receive an o:line with flood privileges (which probably don't exist on this ircd anyway?)
04:19:32 <elliott> myndzi: freenode is too srs for that
04:19:51 <elliott> pikhq: LINK ME TO SOFTWARE MUST DEVOUR
04:20:06 <zzo38> I wrote a IRCd program too (based on another one, with many changes)
04:20:31 <zzo38> And it is as far as I know, the only one capable of following the IRC protocol correctly
04:20:51 <zzo38> (Although it will follow it incorrectly too, if the client insists)
04:21:37 <zzo38> And also the only one with a working SUMMON command.
04:21:44 -!- augur has joined.
04:22:03 <Sgeo> http://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/open-cobol/open-cobol/1.0/open-cobol-1.0.tar.gz?r=http%3A%2F%2Fsourceforge.net%2Fprojects%2Fopen-cobol%2Ffiles%2F&ts=1289100086&use_mirror=iweb
04:22:16 <Sgeo> There, have some software
04:22:47 <Sgeo> That might not work
04:22:59 * Sgeo gives the middle finger to SourceForge
04:23:53 -!- Sasha has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:24:18 <myndzi> protip: if it follows the rfc exactly, it doesn't necessarily duplicate the original irc correctly
04:24:23 -!- Sasha has joined.
04:24:35 <myndzi> there were actually some oversights in the rfc
04:24:55 <myndzi> though the only one i can remember at the moment is that ~ was supposed to be a valid nick character
04:25:40 <zzo38> myndzi: Yes, that might be the case; and I know some things about some oversights too. Yet it works, try it if you want to?
04:25:42 <Gregor> I want an IRC server that allows UTF-8 nicks. With colors.
04:25:57 <Gregor> I wonder if common clients would just shit themselves with nicks with mIRC colors :P
04:26:12 <zzo38> Gregor: Then write one or modify an existing one.
04:26:17 <myndzi> i input colored nicks into irc before
04:26:26 <myndzi> and it doesn't display them in the actual channel window nicklists
04:27:14 <Sgeo> zzo38, the fun is with people with unmodified clients trying to connect
04:27:21 <ais523> hmm, SCO's latest trick: subverting the laws of arithmetic, or counting to be precise
04:27:33 <ais523> their latest court motion has two paragraph 3s, and no paragraph 7
04:27:49 <myndzi> sounds like editing errors to me
04:28:02 <ais523> elliott: incidentally, I actually changed the wiki global settings so that crazy things like your snowman userpage wouldn't show up on edit preview
04:28:14 <ais523> because for people with preview-by-default, it makes the code impossible to see
04:28:17 <elliott> ais523: But I dislike it, because it meant I had to save it 34573457345 times rather than testing it properly.
04:28:38 <ais523> I would have done that for the diff view too, except I couldn't figure out how to do it without breaking your userpage altogether, which is what any /sane/ wikiadmin would have done
04:28:48 <zzo38> My IRC client won't use mIRC colors because it uses its own colors: cyan for sender, bright white for commands, white for short parameters, bright blue for long parameters, reverse green for prompts, bright cyan for client status messages, reverse magenta for control characters, bright red for CTRL+A messages, bright green for timestamps...
04:29:02 <elliott> ais523: It's the best userpage ever, you can't just break something like that.
04:29:31 <ais523> your recent actions seem to have been designed to make life difficult for admins
04:29:50 <ais523> (incidentally, I was wondering how long it would be before someone made an actual esolang at a spambot title)
04:30:00 <zzo38> ais523: If the paragraph numbers are wrong, does that mean that legal document is invalid until is corrected, or is ambiguous or something like that? (Like something says "according to paragraph 3" and you don't know which "paragraph 3" you mean)
04:30:17 <ais523> zzo38: who knows, this is SCO we're talking about; they don't seem to follow the normal rules of legal behaviour
04:30:40 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I made that esolang out of some sort of dada-esque philosophy I follow and then decided to make a user page to un-redlink my own userpage link on it
04:30:46 <elliott> ais523: and then decided a blank one is too boring
04:30:46 <ais523> there was a famous quote where SCO persuaded the judge to ignore a deadline, the other people in the case objected, and the judge said "what are they going to do, take me out back and shoot me?"
04:30:48 <elliott> then it got way out of hand
04:31:36 <elliott> ais523: In my defence, I created [[rename]], and cleaned up/revised [[Esolang:Community Portal]] and [[Template:License problem]].
04:31:50 <elliott> ais523: As well as making an esolang that, although not intended to, has actually confused me as to whether it's TC or not.
04:31:51 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:31:54 <elliott> (See http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Befunge/index.php)
04:32:31 <zzo38> Sgeo: with people with unmodified clients trying to connect to what?
04:32:43 * elliott adds a comment in reply to himself
04:32:55 <Sgeo> A server that allows IRC colors in nicks, I think
04:33:17 <elliott> ais523: any ideas about http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Befunge/index.php? (I added a comment just now)
04:33:24 <elliott> you're quite experienced with TC-ambiguity issues :-P
04:34:11 <ais523> well, it's quite easy to write a befunge-93 program that reads arbitrary input onto the stack
04:34:17 <ais523> thus, it's possible to write a BF interpreter in it
04:34:17 <zzo38> Sgeo: I do suppose some client would get mixed up. Both my server and my client do not accept that.
04:34:29 <ais523> in a twist of definitional difficulty, though, I'm not convinced that that actually makes it TC
04:34:47 <Sgeo> Given an untrustworthy server, what sort of mischef could that server get up to with various clients?
04:35:14 <ais523> you can easily prove that it can't simulate all Turing machines, by contrasting the infinite number of Turing machines with the finite number of possible programs
04:35:24 <ais523> thus, I've just proved it both TC and not TC
04:35:31 <ais523> next step: complain at people who write TCness definitions
04:36:21 <Sgeo> Well, a BF int..
04:36:36 <elliott> ais523: we really need to formalise a definition sometime...
04:36:47 <elliott> ais523: start with a mathematical model of turing machines (or some alternative formulation?), go from there
04:37:06 <zzo38> And there is the HQ9+ variant that has a X command to make it turing-complete, even though it isn't turing-complete
04:37:53 <Sgeo> This predicament comes up with any language that has finite space for the program but infinite for storage?
04:38:10 <ais523> Sgeo: and is otherwise TC, yes
04:38:14 <elliott> technically, it's 256 languages
04:38:22 <elliott> and they're all turing complete
04:38:27 <ais523> elliott: no, it picks one of 256 TC languages at random to interpret the program with
04:38:30 <elliott> it's just impossible to tell which one you're coding in
04:38:33 <ais523> that's not quite the same
04:39:10 <elliott> ais523: btw, don't know if you've seen anything, but oerjan is okay
04:39:22 <elliott> I started worrying when his email address bounced :)
04:40:10 <elliott> ais523: hmm, Graue opposed [[Template:License problem]] in 2006 when it was created, and his complaint about it is the only link to it
04:40:12 <elliott> [[Oerjan, you are a fine, fine, person, and I appreciate your contributions to this wiki, so don't take this personally. But Template:License problem is just silly. If someone posts copyrighted material here, we need to delete it ASAP, not keep it around and put it on display! We can re-add it if the author agrees, of course. I would've thought that was obvious. Maybe you have a good reason for this te
04:40:12 <elliott> mplate, one that hasn't occurred to me -- if so, please say it here. I'll leave the template around for now just in case. --Graue 05:08, 3 Aug 2006 (UTC)]]
04:40:14 <Sgeo> Real turing machines don't have a concept of input, do they?
04:40:19 <elliott> ais523: I may have just cleaned it up, but candidate for deletion? :)
04:40:28 <elliott> (cleaned it up = the english, ever so slightly...)
04:41:01 <ais523> elliott: well, it misrepresents policy
04:41:05 <ais523> is that a deletion reason on Esolang?
04:41:08 <Sgeo> Well, um, using the word "real" losely
04:41:12 <elliott> "Well, I did give a warning once (see the Template discussion above), and then Graue thought I was silly and should have deleted it outright, so this time I did."
04:41:21 <elliott> seems that the only time it was used was with GreaseMonkey's lang
04:41:26 <elliott> and Graue immediately complained about it
04:41:27 <ais523> I don't really like either a) transplanting policies from Wikipedia willy-nillly, or b) making them up myself
04:41:47 <zzo38> Yes.... you have 256 TC languages one selected at random you don't know which one, is it possible it is turing-complete as a whole? Or, it isn't? There are more questions about turing-complete, even!!
04:41:51 <ais523> I know that before now, I've got an esolang description relicensed as PD by explaining to the author
04:41:56 <elliott> ais523: it was used once in 2006, it was immediately complained about by the Supreme Dictator whose slightly-insane policies we all follow for some reason, and then was never mentioned again
04:42:04 <ais523> zzo38: I've already had an argument about the definition of TCness with a bunch of experts in the subject
04:42:07 <elliott> ais523: so it seems like it's beyond pointless
04:42:11 <ais523> elliott: well, he owns the wiki
04:42:22 <elliott> ais523: on the other hand, deleting things makes me feel odd
04:42:45 <elliott> ais523: I'd feel better about it if deleted pages were released somehow (a dump, say)... but eh.
04:42:46 <ais523> I can undelete it if it's ever needed
04:42:51 <Sgeo> elliott, you're turning into um, calamari?
04:42:59 <ais523> elliott: that would defeat the point of deletion
04:43:05 <elliott> ais523: There was an argument about whether deleting violates the GFDL, yeah? Not applicable to Esolang, but interesting.
04:43:15 <elliott> ais523: not really; if it's not illegal -- and if it is it should be completely purged -- there's no reason not to release it
04:43:42 <ais523> elliott: it's only partial deletion that violates the GFDL
04:43:47 <elliott> ais523: No reason to make it *convenient*, but no reason to restrict it to a clique (administrators) that's *meant* to be very open ("Being an administrator is no big deal, that's why we have a drawn-out decision process for it!")
04:43:48 <ais523> deleting the whole thing is obviously OK
04:44:20 <ais523> people have moved away from the whole "being an administrator is no big deal" concept on Wikipedia, after they discovered it didn't match actual practice
04:44:33 <elliott> Delicious, delicious bureauocracy!
04:44:49 <elliott> ais523: it really scares me how seriously a lot of wikipedians treat the place...
04:45:01 <elliott> also, is it just me, or has the quality of Wikipedia articles been decreasing?
04:45:18 <ais523> the average quality has been decreasing, I think, because there are too many for anyone to sensibly cope with any more
04:45:27 <elliott> I hardly ever look at an article that doesn't have bad spelling/formatting or errors nowadays... there's a huge amount of uninformed people adding, say, stuff in the first person to random places, trying to be helpful
04:45:28 <ais523> I was reviewing the contribs of someone who'd vandalised a page I was looking at, found vandalism to a BLP
04:45:49 <ais523> so I reverted, then the bit I'd changed was vandalised much more
04:46:03 <ais523> and eventually I just blanked the section, as it was unsourced and I couldn't even figure out what the correct version was
04:46:07 <ais523> Sgeo: biography of a living person
04:46:14 <elliott> I basically use Wikipedia as a glorified tech dictionary + relevant URL source nowadays.
04:46:19 <ais523> they're guarded more closely than other articles, due to potential libel risks
04:46:23 <ais523> elliott: relevant URL source is a big one
04:46:42 <elliott> ais523: Yes, but removing external links is quite the popular pastime, isn't it? :)
04:46:46 <elliott> At least I get that impression.
04:47:07 <elliott> ais523: ooh! I know what to test my inst(1) program with: C-INTERCAL!
04:47:29 <elliott> ais523: (a program that, when given a URL to a tarball (or, in the future, a source repository), downloads it, configures it, builds it and installs it)
04:47:48 <elliott> ais523: hmm, perhaps it'd be better to test it on a pre-autotools C-INTERCAL; what was the last insane-build-system version?
04:47:48 <pikhq> Y'know, it is a bit of a shame that there is literally *no* barrier to entry to editing Wikipedia.
04:48:05 <elliott> pikhq: It's the strength and the weakness.
04:48:40 <pikhq> I'm not saying go full-crazy requiring credentials or anything, but it seems to me that it would be nice to at least have a wiki encyclopedia that required *some* demonstration of intelligence before joining.
04:48:47 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: This quit message is not turing-complete).
04:48:53 <elliott> pikhq: s/joining/editing/; I support anonymous editing.
04:49:17 <ais523> pikhq: well, there's Citizendium: real names required, if you can show credentials then the admins automatically side with you on content disputes (as a matter of policy)
04:49:20 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, true, anonymity is definitely a good thing.
04:49:26 <ais523> it's not really as popular as Wikipedia
04:49:56 <elliott> ais523: Citizendium is awful; the article on chiropracty is "moderated" or whatever and primarily written by a chiropractor's organisation, because they're EXPERTS
04:50:02 <elliott> ais523: it is, therefore, a pile of unscientific bullshit
04:50:11 <elliott> http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Chiropractic
04:50:12 <ais523> elliott: you know, I'm not surprisd at all
04:50:32 <elliott> "Article approved by three editors (first, second and third)"
04:50:46 <elliott> "I performed my pre-requisite studies through Indiana University and graduated magna cum laude from Logan College of Chiropractic in 1982. I am certified in Acupuncture from National College of Health Sciences."
04:50:59 <elliott> second: "Nancy Sculerati is an associate professor at New York University School of Medicine. She contributed a great deal to this project in 2006-7, for which we are very grateful, but she has since left the project." (well how descriptive)
04:51:10 <pikhq> I consider Citizendium to be too reliant on credientials.
04:51:18 <ais523> pikhq: well, that's its entire purpose
04:51:19 <elliott> third: "I am Head of the School of Biomedical Sciences in the College of Medical and Veterinary Sciences at the University of Edinburgh."
04:51:30 <elliott> ais523: this is actually far more balanced than the last time, which was solely done by chiropractors
04:51:36 <pikhq> My idea of "demonstration of intelligence" is, at most, demonstration of ability to write a well-thought-out paragraph.
04:51:54 <elliott> the article is still far too apologetic
04:52:16 <elliott> ais523: also, it has almost no articles entirely :)
04:53:48 <elliott> ais523: so what's the last non-autotools C-INTERCAL?
04:53:56 <pikhq> Still, it's pretty amazing how well Wikipedia works for being written by, essentially, whatever random moron feels like typing in something for it.
04:54:40 <elliott> I think ais523 has ignored *C-INTERCAL* :-)
04:57:51 <elliott> oh jesus, ais523; your versioning system breaks my program
04:58:28 <Sgeo> How does that even make sense/
04:58:47 <Sgeo> I mean, if it prevents ./configure; make; sudo make install;
04:58:57 <Sgeo> Which would be weird for a versioning system to do
04:59:02 <Sgeo> And elliott still can't hear me
04:59:18 * Sgeo hits elliott with a division
04:59:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:59:59 <olsner> *finally*, a working interrupt handler for timer interrupts
05:00:21 <ais523> sorry, was looking at another tab
05:00:30 <ais523> last non-autotools is pretty ancient
05:00:41 <ais523> also, if my versioning system doesn't break your program, it's doing something wrong :)
05:00:53 <elliott> ais523: hey, i like how 0.28 was followed by 0.-2.0.29, i hate you :)
05:00:57 <ais523> it was autotools (badly) before I started maintaining it
05:01:06 <ais523> elliott: it's a beta, thus the negative version number component
05:01:09 <elliott> <ais523> it was autotools (badly) before I started maintaining it
05:01:14 <elliott> hmm, right, but you redid the build system
05:01:19 <elliott> i'll try both insane and sane versions
05:01:24 <elliott> ais523: urghh, this is going to be hell to extract the version from
05:01:42 <elliott> logic needs to be... last "-" separated component, but if there's a ".", then get everything from the preceding "-" to the end
05:01:59 <Sgeo> ais523, how does this break elliott's stuff?
05:01:59 <ais523> elliott: it's lexicographical
05:02:09 <ais523> most relevant part is the one at the end
05:02:17 <ais523> e.g. 29 at the end trumps 28 at the end trumps 27 at the end
05:02:17 <elliott> ais523: I don't care, I'm installing it with that order
05:02:22 <ais523> if there's a tie, look at the number before
05:02:33 <elliott> pikhq: It's C-INTERCAL. It can do whatever it wants.
05:02:35 <ais523> it's simple and logical, just not the system everyone else uses
05:02:49 <pikhq> It was *quite possible* for the election in 2010 to be have been decided by Al Gore.
05:03:29 <pikhq> The Supreme Court could have invalidated the Florida election, thus leaving neither candidate with a majority of the electoral college votes.
05:03:38 <pikhq> So, the Senate would have the role of deciding the President.
05:04:02 <elliott> def name_and_version_for(package_id):
05:04:02 <elliott> m = re.search(r'(.+)-([^-]+).(.*)', package_id)
05:04:02 <elliott> return m.group(1), '%s.%s' % (m.group(2), m.group(3))
05:04:05 <elliott> return split[:-1], split[-1]
05:04:07 <elliott> ais523: I hope you're happy.
05:04:08 <pikhq> The Senate at the time was 50/50 Democrat and Republican, and so the vote would likely go to the President of the Senate.
05:04:12 <pikhq> Who, at the time, was Al Gore.
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05:04:21 <ais523> elliott: your original regex has nothing to do with my versioning scheme
05:04:28 <ais523> pikhq: heh, that's hilarious
05:04:33 <ais523> I'm so sad that didn't happen now
05:04:39 <elliott> ais523: no, but it does make it work with your versioning scheme
05:04:51 <pikhq> ais523: It would've been awesome for Al Gore to vote himself as President.
05:05:02 <elliott> pikhq: that would be beyond amazing
05:05:07 <ais523> even more awesome if he voted Bush in
05:05:08 <elliott> and the republicans would never forget it ever
05:05:24 <elliott> "Frankly, my friends... Even I wouldn't vote for me."
05:05:26 <pikhq> elliott: Their fault for suing Gore, then.
05:05:42 <elliott> ais523: have you got a C-INTERCAL 0.-2.0.29 download link that works?
05:05:47 <elliott> it seems that lepton.kuonet-ng.org is down
05:06:30 <elliott> $ inst http://overload.intercal.org.uk/c/ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz
05:06:30 <elliott> * Downloading ick-0. 2.0.2....
05:06:40 <ais523> what about the gopher via IPv6 link?
05:06:54 <elliott> ais523: I have neither an IPv6-enabled connection, nor a program that supports gopher.
05:07:01 <elliott> Okay, so curl *might* support gopher. But I don't want it to.
05:07:02 <ais523> you can also get it from ESR's repo of every version ever, I imagine
05:07:08 <ais523> also, Firefox 3 supports gopher
05:07:10 <elliott> ais523: Repositories aren't HTTP URLs :)
05:07:17 <elliott> Right now all this does is HTTP.
05:07:19 <ais523> (I think support was removed from 4)
05:07:20 <elliott> I could easily enable FTP too.
05:07:31 <elliott> ais523: But it will, eventually, somehow, magically, detect what VCS a URL uses.
05:07:41 <elliott> (Look for a 403 on _darcs or something, for darcs?)
05:07:48 <elliott> (Or, really, anything but a 404.)
05:07:52 <ais523> elliott: also, the overload.intercal.org.uk link works fine for me
05:08:04 <ais523> presumably, it's just blocking your useragent, or something like that
05:08:17 <elliott> ais523: oh, no, my "Fail!" was at my program
05:08:25 <elliott> ais523: thinking it was ick-0 version 2.0.2
05:08:29 <ais523> aha, robots.txt is set to disallow all
05:08:43 <elliott> curl doesn't read robots.txt, I don't think, by default
05:09:10 <elliott> * Downloading ick 0..2.0.29...
05:10:47 <elliott> ais523: your build system fails if you don't have yacc(1)
05:10:57 <elliott> configure doesn't tell you, and then make fails after sh goes "yo no yacc command"
05:11:00 <elliott> rather than failing gracefully
05:11:11 <elliott> ais523: consider that a bug report
05:11:25 <pikhq> God, Bush v. Gore. Next time I hear the phrase "judicial activism" from a conservative I'm bringing that up.
05:12:52 <pikhq> It doesn't get more activist than deciding an election.
05:13:29 <elliott> ais523: flex, too, although at least it says
05:13:34 <elliott> WARNING: `flex' is missing on your system.
05:14:14 <ais523> elliott: I fixed that bug at least twice
05:14:20 <elliott> ais523: try fixing it a third time
05:14:24 <ais523> but the latest fix isn't in that beta, but only in the alpha version
05:14:32 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ inst http://overload.intercal.org.uk/c/ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz
05:14:32 <elliott> * Downloading ick 0.-2.0.29...
05:14:32 <elliott> ######################################################################## 100.0%
05:14:32 <elliott> * Configuring ick 0.-2.0.29...
05:14:32 <elliott> * Building ick 0.-2.0.29...
05:14:33 <elliott> * Installing ick 0.-2.0.29...
05:14:35 <elliott> * Installed ick 0.-2.0.29.
05:14:37 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ ls /opt/ick-0.-2.0.29
05:14:41 <elliott> ais523: I hereby declare ick INST COMPLIANT(TM).
05:15:07 <ais523> heh, you're trying to make an auto-install-from-tarball?
05:15:19 <elliott> ais523: also s/tarball/tarball or VCS repository/
05:15:35 <elliott> ais523: It works rather well:
05:15:37 <elliott> bash-4.1 egobf-0.7.1 emacs-23.2 ick-0.-2.0.29 perl-5.12.2 Python-2.7
05:16:04 <elliott> Perl I had to hack the script for; ./configure is evil and prompts the user and doesn't use --prefix=foo (it uses -Dprefix=foo), but making it detect ./configure.gnu makes everything work, because that emulates autoconf's configure script.
05:16:33 <elliott> And Python's "make install" doesn't work when I pipe the output to a buffer in my program rather than >/dev/null, so currently things are slightly broken to make that work.
05:16:38 <elliott> But everything else worked just fine.
05:17:03 <elliott> ais523: ugh, "ick-0-28.tgz"
05:17:06 <ais523> try openoffice, it's famous for being hard to compile
05:17:11 * Gregor compiles Fythe on his ChiPad :P
05:17:25 <elliott> ais523: Yes, but I need to figure out how to decode that into a version number without SPECIAL-CASING EVERYTHING
05:17:42 <elliott> ais523: "# I hate ais523" is now above name_and_version_for.
05:17:46 <ais523> elliott: well, at least your program doesn't break man(1) for the entire system just because the filename has spaces in
05:17:47 <pikhq> ais523: OpenOffice is awfulness itself.
05:17:56 <elliott> ais523: is openoffice even vaguely autoconf-compatible?
05:17:57 <pikhq> ais523: Each and every widget has its own set of C++ files.
05:18:03 <elliott> it's probably scons/cmake/whatever, which I don't support yet
05:18:12 <ais523> (note: genuine mandb(1) bug that was triggered by CLC-INTERCAL; Debian decided to change CLC-INTERCAL rather than mandb, for some reason)
05:18:28 <pikhq> elliott: It's custom.
05:18:46 <pikhq> elliott: It is a packager's nightmare.
05:18:52 <elliott> $ inst http://overload.intercal.org.uk/c/ick-0-28.tgz
05:19:03 <ais523> elliott: the CLC-INTERCAL binary used to be called oo, ick
05:19:05 <elliott> ais523: My workaround for negative versions has somehow made it work :P
05:19:06 <ais523> with an embedded space
05:19:21 <elliott> ais523: have you got an x-y-z version number anywhere?
05:19:31 <ais523> and I don't think so, it wouldn't fit in 8.3
05:19:38 <ais523> so there'd be no point
05:20:29 <elliott> ./config.sh: 910: Syntax error: "(" unexpected (expecting "fi")
05:20:34 <elliott> ais523: ick 0.28 -- shame on you
05:20:46 <ais523> elliott: yes, by mistake
05:20:55 <ais523> that one was reported to me by Debian themselves, and I sent a patch
05:21:02 <ais523> remove the parens on that line, it'll work fine
05:21:11 <elliott> ais523: no, it must be unmodified to be INST COMPLIANT(TM)
05:21:13 <ais523> I think you'll agree with me that it's the stupidest nonportability ever
05:21:18 <elliott> ais523: even if i make inst use bash, it fails:
05:21:21 <elliott> gcc -g -O2 -DICKINCLUDEDIR=\"/opt/ick-0-28/include/ick-0.28\" -DICKDATADIR=\"/opt/ick-0-28/share/ick-0.28\" -DICKBINDIR=\"/opt/ick-0-28/bin\" -DICKLIBDIR=\"/opt/ick-0-28/lib\" -DYYDEBUG -DICK_HAVE_STDINT_H=1 -O2 -W -Wall -I./src -I./temp -c -o temp/ick_lose.o src/ick_lose.c
05:21:21 <elliott> mv: cannot stat `y.tab.c': No such file or directory
05:21:29 <elliott> (also, "DICKINCLUDEDIR", how unfortunate...)
05:21:47 <ais523> elliott: blame it on gcc
05:22:02 <ais523> for not forseeing that its option syntax would clash badly with C-INTERCAL's name
05:22:10 <elliott> ais523: what about the error? :)
05:22:21 <Sgeo> What would happen if I said that bash is worse than COBOL?
05:22:29 <ais523> looks like a missing lex/flex
05:22:50 <elliott> i installed it for c-intercal :)
05:23:25 <ais523> well, y.tab.c is the infamously hardcoded name of lex's output file
05:23:41 <ais523> for all I know it might be a bug in the build system, which I've since already fixed
05:23:47 <elliott> ais523: have you still got the dd/sh package for 1.-94?
05:23:49 <elliott> that sounds like fun to read
05:24:09 <elliott> just the footnotes are technically in the C-INTERCAL section
05:24:18 <elliott> Package DD/SH program Tarball
05:24:18 <elliott> Bundle (304646 bytes) (317525 bytes)
05:24:55 <ais523> phew, I thought the world had gone upside-down then
05:24:58 <elliott> ais523: especially as the tarball isn't self-decompressing
05:25:00 <ais523> and ddsh doesn't store metadata, so that makes sense
05:25:11 <elliott> ais523: yes, but it also has a bunch of verbose output messages
05:25:26 <elliott> admittedly, that's a small overhead
05:26:26 <ais523> elliott: CLC-INTERCAL is a Perl program
05:26:45 <ais523> that installs cleanly via the typical perl configure, make, make install
05:26:50 <ais523> so it'd be a good test for inst
05:26:56 <elliott> ais523: heh, i'll give it a go
05:27:32 <elliott> ais523: "* Downloading CLC INTERCAL.1.-94.-2..."
05:27:50 <elliott> * Downloading CLC-INTERCAL 1.-94.-2...
05:28:10 <ais523> heh, you should see what the Debian version number for that looks like
05:28:14 <elliott> ais523: heh, I almost toned down "# I hate ais523" into "# Damn you, ais523!" then double-taked
05:28:17 <elliott> (yes, yes, i take it back)
05:28:47 <ais523> you should blame CLC for C-INTERCAL's version number, not me
05:29:44 <elliott> ais523: that's why i was toning it down
05:30:44 <ais523> heh, I don't really mind being hated
05:32:11 <elliott> ais523: ugh, it's Makefile.PL
05:32:36 <ais523> that's standard for Perl configuring
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05:32:51 <elliott> ais523: hey, this could replace CPAN :-)
05:33:40 <ais523> elliott: someone else had just that thought, and ended up inventing CPANMINUS
05:33:54 <ais523> I haven't tried myself; allegedly, it's less bad than CPAN, but that isn't exactly difficult
05:34:10 <elliott> ais523: cpanminus looks pretty good
05:34:13 <ais523> really, what CPAN needs is an actual package management system, that works as well as, say, aptitude+dpkg
05:34:13 <elliott> ais523: but still, it's too complex!
05:34:22 <elliott> ais523: what it needs is inst(1)!
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05:34:29 <pikhq> I should be made dictator.
05:34:32 <ais523> i.e. not perfect, but good enough
05:34:32 <elliott> ais523: I'm actually trying to figure out how to add automatic dependency installation for inst(1)...
05:34:41 <pikhq> ais523: The world.
05:34:50 <elliott> ais523: I'm thinking maybe "look it up in Debian sid, if it's there, use their orig tarball".
05:34:55 <pikhq> That'll solve everything.
05:35:00 <ais523> pikhq: what makes you think that would be beneficial for the world
05:35:13 <pikhq> ais523: My hubris.
05:36:02 <elliott> ais523: hmm, what's the standard prefix argument to Makefile.PL?
05:36:09 <elliott> ais523: not --prefix, presumably; for Perl's "Configure" it was -Dprefix=foo
05:37:31 <ais523> I've never used it, I've always just installed in the default locatoin
05:38:54 <elliott> ais523: ugh, --help doesn't even work
05:39:12 <elliott> '-DPREFIX' is not a known MakeMaker parameter name.
05:39:50 <pikhq> Hubris is a powerful, powerful thing.
05:40:07 <elliott> " 1. perl Makefile.PL INSTALL_BASE=~"
05:41:20 <ais523> yep, seems it is in fact INSTALL_BASE=
05:41:33 <elliott> def run_configure_help(configure):
05:41:33 <elliott> if configure == 'Makefile.PL':
05:41:33 <elliott> print 'Perl program; no configuration available. Sorry!'
05:43:01 <ais523> presumably, the explanation is in perldoc ExtUtils::MakeMaker
05:43:40 <elliott> i found that from that perldoc
05:44:59 <elliott> make[1]: Entering directory `/tmp/inst-work-02cJYR/tree/CLC-INTERCAL-1.-94.-2/CLC-INTERCAL-Base-1.-94.-2'
05:45:00 <elliott> make[1]: *** No rule to make target `blib/lib/Language/INTERCAL/Include/1972.iacc', needed by `blib/lib/Language/INTERCAL/Include/1972.io'. Stop.
05:45:00 <elliott> make[1]: *** Waiting for unfinished jobs....
05:45:28 <elliott> ais523: ugh, I think perl builds fail on -j3
05:47:46 <elliott> ais523: I hereby brand all Perl programs BAD PROGRAMS; they build with inst, but only because I coerced it to.
05:48:04 <elliott> ais523: Well, all of them using Makefile.PL.
05:48:36 <elliott> ais523: So first I fixed the parser so that errors are truly run-
05:48:36 <elliott> time in C-INTERCAL (E017 has been relegated to a previously minor
05:48:36 <elliott> function, that of erroring on meshes over 65535)
05:48:40 <elliott> ais523: can you explain that parenthical remark?
05:48:43 <elliott> I definitely don't understand it.
05:49:25 <elliott> ok, I officially give up on CLC-INTERCAL: http://sprunge.us/JBdj
05:49:49 <elliott> is there an environment variable for that, I wonder
05:51:14 <Sasha> anyone here in high school?
05:51:14 <Sasha> I have sex-ed next week with a 60-year old, "pro-life" anti-GLBT abstinence-only lady teaching.
05:51:14 <Sasha> What are effective trolling techniques
05:51:39 <elliott> Effective trolling techniques: Don't waste your time
05:51:45 <elliott> ais523: ok, it actually installs.
05:52:32 <pikhq> Sasha: Are you gay or bi? If so, please oh please be obviously so.
05:52:47 <Sasha> asexual until proven otherwise
05:53:06 <pikhq> How can you be undecided that's not how things work?
05:53:19 <Sgeo> Maybe she means "uncertain"?
05:53:38 <Sasha> Undecided is a bad word for it
05:53:54 <Sasha> my brain hasn't quite made up its mind, if you will pardon the pun.
05:54:12 <pikhq> That's... Really not how things work. At all.
05:54:38 <Sgeo> I don't feel like pardoning you. Guess you'll just die.
05:54:56 <Sasha> Okay, then. How do they work? I did not come with an instruction manual.
05:55:43 <pikhq> You possess sexual attractions. You don't "make up your mind" about them, they just kinda are.
05:56:00 <Sgeo> I, for instance, might say that I'm uncertain whether or not I have any attraction to men. There is a definite answer, I'm just not sure what it is
05:56:11 <elliott> this is irrelevant and tedious
05:56:23 <pikhq> I'd think this would be exceptionally obvious to anyone who had made their way through puberty...
05:56:41 <Sasha> pikhq: There were very vague attractions during puberty
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05:57:12 <pikhq> Sasha: ... Very vague?
05:57:29 <Sasha> unclear, sort of foggy
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05:57:30 <pikhq> You are probably asexual.
05:57:44 <Sasha> something else to be happy/sad about
05:57:48 <Sgeo> Is there a spectrum between asexual and sexual?
05:57:53 <elliott> "I am so sad that I don't have [desire]!"
05:57:56 <elliott> Question: Does this make any sense?
05:57:56 <Sgeo> As in, very little interest, for example?
05:57:58 <elliott> Answer: This makes no sense.
05:58:46 <Gregor> I love the mix between Sasha's overcomplication and pikhq's oversimplification. Such a good combo.
05:58:51 <elliott> pikhq: Well, sexual urges are less for females than males during puberty, right?
05:58:57 <elliott> Gregor: Black + white = grey!
05:59:06 <elliott> pikhq: So it depends if Sasha is female. Which is ... unlikely :P
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05:59:25 <Gregor> Esp. what with Sasha being a male name and all ...
05:59:52 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that right now, I'm glad elliott has me on ignore
06:00:25 <pikhq> elliott: "Less" != "vague and unclear" anyways.
06:00:45 <Sgeo> Is there some sort of prank being played here, though? To me, Sasha is a VERY feminine name
06:00:55 <Gregor> Sgeo: Well, then you're wrong?
06:00:56 <pikhq> Sgeo: No, it's fairly masculine.
06:01:04 <Sasha> Sgeo: Nickname for my given name
06:01:12 <Sasha> and my given name is masculine
06:01:19 <Sasha> it's Eastern European
06:01:26 <elliott> http://www.google.com/images?q=sasha&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:unofficial&client=iceweasel-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=gDLWTK-PMYKQjAfSlp3DCQ&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=5&ved=0CEUQsAQwBA&biw=1366&bih=577
06:01:32 <elliott> Seems rather equally divided between male/female.
06:01:33 <pikhq> Ah, apparently it's mostly a female given name in the US. Go figure.
06:01:51 <Gregor> pikhq: I have too much interaction with Europeans :P
06:02:05 <pikhq> Funny, when I hear "Sasha" I'm going to figure a Slavic male.
06:02:06 <Gregor> pikhq: I literally cannot stop myself from counting thumb-first now. I'm perfectly conscious of it and yet I CAN'T STOP :(
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06:03:26 <pikhq> Gregor: I consistently use s where an American would use z in "-ise".
06:03:39 <Gregor> pikhq: HA. You fail more at being American than I do :P
06:03:41 <Sasha> we can discuss more on this subject next waking period
06:03:41 <pikhq> And find grey and gray to be interchangable.
06:04:08 <Gregor> pikhq: I don't think gr{a,e}y is actually a UK-US thing, I think it's inconsistent in both locales.
06:04:21 <Gregor> Sasha: Well of course you use -ise :P
06:04:28 <pikhq> Gregor: It is a UK-US thing, but not very strict either way.
06:04:36 <Sasha> Gregor: It's how I pronounce it.
06:04:52 <Sasha> and, for the record, I am in the US. Very much so.
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06:05:05 <Gregor> pikhq: You realize that sentence makes no sense, right :P
06:05:13 <elliott> Gregor: Thumb-first is awesome.
06:05:21 <Gregor> Sasha: I predict you're in ... Arizona.
06:05:41 <pikhq> Gregor: Gray is primarily a US thing.
06:06:02 <Gregor> Sasha: I didn't say my prediction wasn't informed :P
06:06:18 <Sasha> I need to obscure my IP
06:06:28 <pikhq> Sasha: You did say you were in Arizona earlier.
06:07:05 <Sasha> but I still need to obscure my IP
06:08:10 <Sasha> I wear a tinfoil hat for a reason
06:09:21 <elliott> Sasha: No you don't, you just wear a tinfoil hat.
06:09:39 <Sasha> and it's soft and warm
06:10:28 <Gregor> It's actually just a sheep Sasha wears on his head.
06:10:44 <Sasha> don't knock it til you've tried it
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06:56:32 <elliott> https://github.com/Orc/bin NEW FAVOURITE MOTHERFUCKING COREUTILS
06:56:34 <elliott> pikhq: https://github.com/Orc/bin
06:56:49 <elliott> pikhq: a portable BSD-style coreutils
06:57:05 <elliott> pikhq: written by DAVID PARSONS who is now my top favourite person instead of like 2nd or 3rd
06:57:44 <elliott> pikhq: And a partial libc too...
06:58:02 <elliott> pikhq: And an option parsing library.
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07:00:03 <pikhq> elliott: Only early.
07:01:14 <elliott> pikhq: inst(1) update: Cannot install programs configured with http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/configure/; it uses install(1) in an upsetting way because it doesn't mkdir -p before installing stuff there. This means you have to mkdir -p /opt/package-version beforehand, and then when it does "install foo ../bin" /opt/package-version/bin is the executable, since it hasn't been made into a directory.
07:01:24 <elliott> pikhq: Will report bug to him sometime, but whatever.
07:01:45 <elliott> pikhq: If you mkdir -p /opt/package-version/{bin,lib,include,etc.etc.etc.} beforehand it'll work.
07:02:28 <pikhq> elliott: So, he needs to add -D to the install line.
07:02:37 <elliott> pikhq: isn't that a gnuism or whatever
07:02:48 <pikhq> It doesn't even have a long option.
07:02:52 <elliott> pikhq: if it doesn't work on Sun IRIX 3.95 the Bloopy version he won't use it :)
07:03:07 <elliott> pikhq: all leading components, it says
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07:03:16 <elliott> so you'd get foo as /blah/bin the file
07:03:26 <elliott> pikhq: so he actually needs either install foo /blah/bin/foo, or mkdir -p then install
07:03:36 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, that's positively retarded behavior.
07:03:54 <elliott> Another log rotation program
07:04:31 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/secho/ joy joy joy love
07:04:33 <elliott> https://github.com/Orc/secho
07:04:37 <elliott> http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/secho/ JOY
07:04:47 <elliott> my favourite program ever installing must install
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07:06:49 <elliott> pikhq: this is literally the best program ever.
07:08:04 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/secho/
07:11:08 <elliott> " A patch for Linux 2.0.x that was posted to the Linux kernel mailing list several years back; it spits up a pretty boot logo when the system is uncompressing the kernel. I was going to use it to hack a noickytexthere boot system (that doesn’t show all the bootup messages, but just has a pretty logo), but I was too busy burning out at the time."
07:11:17 <elliott> DAVID PARSONS: Invented textless boots before Ubuntu.
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07:19:10 <pikhq> DAVID PARSONS: Maybe also Computer Jesus.
07:21:30 <elliott> pikhq: Also: Literal Jesus.
07:21:40 <elliott> DAVID PARSONS (the name is actually in smallcaps, but) is literal Jesus.
07:22:49 <Gregor> "before Ubuntu" ... you realize that plenty of other distros had graphical boot before Ubuntu even existed ...
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07:23:24 <elliott> Gregor: My statement is still factually accurate. Also: hurrrbdl what is joeeekkkkkkkkkkkkkl;'#
07:23:37 <elliott> But WHAT IS joeeekkkkkkkkkkkkkl;'#? We may never know.
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07:28:00 <elliott> grep(pattern, file(argv[i])) || exit(1);
07:32:00 <elliott> pikhq: QUICK! Boyer-Moore, Knuth-Morris-Pratt or Rabin-Karp?
07:32:18 <pikhq> elliott: Knuth-Knuth-Knuth
07:32:45 <pikhq> Cloning machine needed for the triumvirate of Knuth, Knuth, and Knuth, of course.
07:32:48 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth%E2%80%93Morris%E2%80%93Pratt_algorithm#Description_of_and_pseudocode_for_the_search_algorithm
07:33:15 <elliott> I could, of course, just do it character-by-character.
07:41:58 <elliott> pikhq: yay I have bfgrep now (fixed binary grep)
07:42:01 <elliott> just need to make it REGEXPBLOAT
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07:44:20 <elliott> pikhq: DID YOU KNOW: There is a decent, NFA-based regexp library?
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07:46:55 <elliott> Unfortunately not quite decent enough:
07:46:56 <elliott> There is no way to specify or match a NUL character; NULs terminate patterns and strings.
07:47:29 <elliott> pikhq: It seems that the sanest regular expression library is C++. :(
07:49:53 <Sgeo> Night everyone who can here me
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07:54:34 <elliott> pikhq: http://code.google.com/p/re2/
07:54:38 <elliott> pikhq: Russ Cox. NFA-based. C++ :(
07:55:23 <pikhq> So, what you're saying is more NIH is needed.
07:58:50 <elliott> pikhq: Is it a bad sign when you write a program with a flag specifically designed to make the program's output consistent?
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08:09:07 <zzo38> elliott: Possibly it depends on the program, too?
08:09:33 <zzo38> (And I think I read somewhere that gcc has such a flag)
08:10:03 <elliott> zzo38: In this case, it's bgrep(1), which searches a list of files for a string and prints the offsets the substrings start in.
08:10:18 <zzo38> elliott: O, so it is different.
08:10:21 <elliott> zzo38: When you only give it one file, it just prints out offsets as decimal numbers, one per line. With multiple files, it prints "filename @ offset".
08:10:30 <elliott> zzo38: The -@ flag makes it always print "filename @ offset", even with only one filename.
08:10:36 <elliott> I am think I should perhaps just make it always print the filename.
08:11:14 <zzo38> Yes, I also think you should perhaps just make it always print the filename. If it is not wanted, you can use stdin redirect instead.
08:12:05 <elliott> zzo38: I currently don't support stdin, but I probably should.
08:12:07 <zzo38> I think no such flag is needed.
08:12:35 <zzo38> And yes you should support stdin. It is a good idea for UNIX programs and UNIX-like programs to use stdin/stdout.
08:12:51 <elliott> zzo38: On the other hand, it should really print something if you use an stdin redirect too.
08:12:56 <elliott> zzo38: I'm thinking that you should be able to do e.g.
08:13:03 <elliott> bgrep (anything) | awk '{print $3}'
08:13:05 <elliott> And always get the raw offsets.
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08:16:27 <zzo38> \edef\a{\relax} \edef\b{\ifnum0=0\fi} \show\a \show\b \message{\ifx\a\b1\else0\fi}
08:20:05 <zzo38> I have invented the TRIP'' test.
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09:08:49 <elliott> 1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB) copied, 302.797 s, 3.5 MB/s
09:08:49 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/Code/bgrep$ time ./bgrep ab foo >/dev/null
09:11:42 <elliott> That's a whole 45.6 MiB/s. :p
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09:55:03 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/SFFO ;; this needs to exist, desperately
09:55:12 <elliott> (in case you can't tell, the bot is running on a server there)
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09:16:13 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: your client sucks
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09:38:54 <oklopol> "<pikhq> You possess sexual attractions. You don't "make up your mind" about them, they just kinda are." <<< rather easy to change tho
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09:40:07 <oklopol> everyone is just like me; also did you know you're here almost all the time?
09:41:01 <elliott> oklopol: well i haven't slept.
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10:10:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i no slept
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11:39:57 <oklopol> stable orbits have to evolve from random configurations
11:40:01 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, in the terrible simulation of Newtonian orbits!
11:40:14 <coppro> can you make a stable 3-body system?
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11:42:03 <elliott> these are all noises fizzie makes
11:42:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Currently I'm just staring at a table of figures to check if there's some periodicity.
11:43:01 <elliott> fizzie: SCHHHHHTOP SCHHHHTOP SHHHHHCKLOPP!!
11:43:45 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, also, I carefully tuned things so that an orbit would be there, so it says little about proper stability.
11:44:10 <oklopol> that's almost stability from random configs
11:44:23 <elliott> fizzie: offulence; tipsit!
11:44:56 <oklopol> sure, but i've implemented a system of 2d planets about 4 times, and never got it to work, so if you're really just using the usual formula, i don't see how it could work
11:47:49 <coppro> was asking oklopol thanks
11:48:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Where m_1 and m_2 are the masses in question, r is the distance between them and G is the universal constant of gravitation.
11:48:50 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> Where m_1 and m_2 are the masses in question, r is the distance between them and G is the universal constant of gravitation.
11:48:58 <elliott> imagine the O RLYs fade as you go downwards
11:49:02 <elliott> that ist he effect i am trying to convey
11:49:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 11:48 + 8 = 19:48 = 7:48 pm, have to wake up at 9 am
11:49:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: in conclusion: no.
11:49:39 <oklopol> coppro: m_1 and m_2 are ofc the masses of the thingies, and r is the distance between them, G is the universal constant of gravitation
11:50:33 <coppro> I know what the equation is
11:50:47 <coppro> I just am not looking at IRC 100% of the time
11:50:48 <elliott> oklopol: you forgot to tell me to go to bed
11:51:00 <oklopol> was just thinking whether i should
11:51:03 <coppro> anyways, the problem with any physical simluation like this is pretty straightforward
11:51:25 <coppro> the forces change instantaneously as soon as positions change
11:51:32 <coppro> and need to be modeled as a curve
11:51:35 <oklopol> yeah and usually that doesn't matter
11:51:47 <coppro> if you perform granular calculations, you will screw up
11:52:16 <oklopol> the problem is the 2d orbits, they don't like staying in shape even with curves
11:52:55 <oklopol> well, at least according to what i've heard, you might be right, i just doubt it
11:53:28 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, FWIW, there's still a pretty small deviation after 4 orbital periods.
11:53:49 <coppro> oh, also floating point error
11:53:51 <coppro> floating point is a bitch
11:54:03 <coppro> (if you are using it, of course)
11:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but in a sufficiently stable system, that won't matter too much.
11:54:09 <oklopol> yeah that doesn't matter either
11:54:31 <coppro> because if one value you try to represent is unrepresentable, then you are going to introduce error
11:54:36 <coppro> and that error will never leave your calculation
11:55:06 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, yes, but the point is that *a stable orbit won't be destroyed by that*.
11:55:07 <oklopol> i think we're talking about a completely different thing
11:55:21 <oklopol> what are you "representing"?
11:55:26 <elliott> just use rationals and it will be fun and slow
11:55:44 <oklopol> we are talking about the stability and sensibility of a physics based on discretization instead of curves, nothing to do with the real world
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11:56:02 <oklopol> we just want to see if it looks nice.
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11:56:43 <oklopol> and the dynamics happens to be pretty much the same with discretization and with curves
11:56:50 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: it might be
11:57:14 <coppro> I'm talking about discretization and curves
11:57:27 <coppro> because it is pretty straightforward to calculate an orbital setup that should be 100% stable
11:58:53 <coppro> also einstein rings are cool
11:59:07 <oklopol> it shouldn't matter for the stability of orbits for instance, the point that always stays discretized corresponds to a real-valued point where you set up the coordinates so that the detail you see when applying the dynamics is the result of the discretization; so you'll probably have to have all these points suddenly jump out of the orbit for some reason even in the real-valued simulation
12:00:07 <oklopol> discretized points are in some sense dense in the set of all points, well, for a fixed amount of application of the dynamics anyway
12:01:49 <coppro> But there's also discretization of time, and that's the bitch
12:02:07 <coppro> avoiding discretization of points is easy
12:02:19 <coppro> but discretzing time means your orbit simply won't be stable
12:02:44 <coppro> pretty sure I could prove this but I have been far too away lately
12:03:21 <elliott> coppro: im the more wake than you asshole
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12:07:04 <coppro> see the problem is all the cool stuff happens at night
12:07:10 <coppro> but all the important stuff happens during the day
12:07:23 <elliott> coppro: important is boring
12:08:30 <elliott> coppro: so let's no important
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12:08:53 <coppro> elliott: turns out there are a ton of cool places in this university that they don't like students to be in (but don't let them know I know they don't like us there)
12:09:25 <coppro> possibly I should not have said that in a logged channel
12:09:39 <elliott> coppro: those places are known... as...
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12:37:37 <Phantom_Hoover> After 100 revolutions, the orbits have decayed outwards by a minuscule amount.
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12:42:55 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, the one in the Newtonian gravitational simulator I just wrote.
12:46:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/wiki/LispbuilderSDL
12:46:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: do it, do it now
12:48:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's really easy, you can just pixel-push
12:48:26 <elliott> plus little sprites if you need to, or circles
12:48:43 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, do I have to define the canvas size beforehand?
12:48:54 <elliott> internally, do what the hell you want.
12:49:05 <elliott> do computation --> render whatever slice you want onto window.
12:49:16 <elliott> allegro is nicer but since Allegro Common Lisp is the biggest, most expensive commercial CL you'll have no hope googling for an allegro-graphics-library binding :)
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12:54:55 <elliott> bash-4.1 egobf-0.7.1 ick-0.-2.0.29 perl-5.12.2 ruby-1.9.2-p0
12:54:56 <elliott> CLC-INTERCAL-1.-94.-2 emacs-23.2 nginx-0.8.53 Python-2.7 zsh-4.3.10
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12:59:07 <nooga> i was just playing Osmos
12:59:21 <nooga> on extremely annoying level with central attractor
13:02:25 <cheater00> did you finish the last one on the bottom left
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13:21:45 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, give me two random sets of masses, coördinates and velocities.
13:24:33 <oklopol> have you considered calling random()
13:25:18 <Phantom_Hoover> It'd probably result in something with boring behaviour.
13:25:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume you know what kind of random situations you were looking for stability in.
13:25:49 <oklopol> if i did it, i would probably do it by calling random... :D
13:26:13 <oklopol> well you know, the random kind of random situations
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13:46:51 <Phantom_Hoover> And of course, the timekeeping is completely horrendous.
13:52:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: solved the n-body problem yet?
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13:57:09 <poiuy_qwert> who said my name last night...? stupid channel buffer is small...
13:58:27 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: I said that your client and/or connection sucked because you were disconnecting and reconnecting ALL NIGHT.
13:58:41 <elliott> poiuy_qwert: And still are, according to a quick glance at my scrollback :P
13:58:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, the tables of figures are pretty hard to interpret.
13:59:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Considered just printing out an 80x24 ASCII rendition?
13:59:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just keep doing that and keep your terminal sized right. It could be larger than 80x24 if you want.
13:59:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Point is, not SDL sweetness, sure, but a hell of a lot easier to visualise.
14:00:10 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, given that plotting it is just a matter of "make the pixel at x,y <colour>"...
14:00:25 <poiuy_qwert> elliott: yes it does suck here (gf's house). the internet "dies" but my laptop doesn't know about it, then it comes back. to my laptop nothing happened but on IRC i timeout
14:00:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean, it's basically a not-so-ultra-quick, 95-bit, 167x37 max or so (on my screen) display.
14:01:03 <elliott> 94 printable chars + 1 space.
14:01:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, that's easy then.
14:01:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Assemble an array of colours out of a few. Loop through, print out the corresponding ASCII character.
14:01:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Admittedly you'll want a zoomed-out version, or at least just a section of the plane, probably.
14:01:52 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, except that I am running in SLIME, hence sans terminal.
14:02:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: sbcl --load foo
14:02:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also, SLIME is basically a terminal...
14:02:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just print out the same amount of rows as you have your terminal sized.
14:03:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (You could also clear(1) in between prints, but if you have the terminal sized right, it'll just make the display choppier.)
14:03:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And just use a few printable chars to represent colours.
14:03:44 <elliott> . is super-light, ' slightly less so, + slightly less so, 0 slightly less so, @ is fully filled.
14:03:49 <elliott> Or @ is slightly less so, # is fully filled.
14:04:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: FORMAT is your bloated, ambiguously-gay friend.
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14:04:34 <elliott> Sure, whatever. Stick stuff in until it works.
14:04:36 <elliott> (That's what she said etc.)
14:04:55 <elliott> oklopol: because ' is like two .s on top of each other
14:05:18 <oklopol> ''s two .:s? i thought that was :
14:05:21 <nooga> asparagus syndrome
14:05:33 <elliott> oklopol: well ' is two .s right on top of each other
14:05:46 <elliott> in the world of pixels there is no gravity
14:05:50 <elliott> asssssssssssssssh and smoke
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14:06:30 <elliott> nooga: that's for Phantom_Hoover's next version :p
14:06:38 <elliott> nooga: it's in common lisp, using libraries is non-trivial ;-)
14:07:01 * Phantom_Hoover writes the single ugliest piece of initialisation code he has ever written.
14:08:08 <oklopol> the first time i used c after using basic, i wrote a function called initialize, which defined all the global functions i needed in my program
14:09:37 <oklopol> haven't really given it that much thought
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14:18:12 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, because I'm absurdly incompetent at any form of display code.
14:29:08 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what happens if a mass moves outside the 80x24 region?
14:34:59 <nooga> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA PHP METAPROGRAMMING AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
14:36:48 * Zuu stuffs a cookie into nooga's mouth
14:47:51 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: you are unable to compute whether a point belongs to a rectangle?
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14:49:32 <oklopol> that's done by doing it one coordinate at a time, so basically you need to be able to use the <-operator
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15:12:33 <olsner> "goes"? but that would imply you weren't already!
15:13:51 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: how do you go insane? I want to try.
15:14:38 <Phantom_Hoover> One of them is to listen to Sgeo singing karaoke, although it tends to vastly overshoot the desired level of insanity.
15:14:49 <Phantom_Hoover> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/paint_it_black_karaoke.ogg
15:20:30 <Mathnerd314> nope, not much insanity. but I only listened to 1/2
15:20:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Obviously you're so insane you've deluded yourself that you are sane.
15:28:44 <Mathnerd314> well, it's untyped, functional, pure, mostly syntaxless, and supports imperative-style programming
15:30:21 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: ^ sounds close to insanity yet?
15:31:56 <Mathnerd314> but I don't think it's actually insane, just mind-blowing, because I have it half-implemented already
15:40:30 <nooga> stop stealing my ideas
15:46:59 <Mathnerd314> nooga: I came up with them at least a year ago!
16:00:36 <mycroftiv> elliott: I know you weren't talking to me, but by a wonderful coincidence "make it detect the client" was actually good helpful advice for a software project I'm working on, so thanks!
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17:06:41 <oklopol> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/paint_it_black_karaoke.ogg isn't sung very well
17:07:45 <oklopol> well yes but also his g is totally flat in bar 47
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19:03:37 <zzo38> Is the channel broken? It says it is but it doesn't seem so?
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19:10:26 <pikhq> Huh. The TSA has started doing backscatter X-rays of passengers. Performed by people who've had 2 days of training. And refuse to allow safety testing on the machines.
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19:13:52 <pikhq> Seems a bit stupid to me. But, then, all their security procedures seem stupid to me.
19:14:16 <olsner> yay, we have system calls :) too bad I have no user-space to call them
19:16:56 <zzo38> mycroftiv: What software project?
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20:33:11 <Vorpal> zzo38, I believe the statement about the channel being broken could be best described as a joke, and a reference to something (don't remember to what atm, might just be a general reference)
20:33:48 <Vorpal> olsner, system calls for what?
20:35:40 -!- iGO has left (?).
20:36:00 <olsner> Vorpal: I'm making a little kernel, just for fun
20:36:29 <Vorpal> olsner, posix-like or your own API?
20:36:40 <olsner> probably my own API, posix is overrated
20:36:53 <Vorpal> olsner, a lot more sensible than the win32 api though ;P
20:37:02 <Vorpal> but then, almost everything is
20:37:43 <olsner> posix is mostly just the average of the major unix flavors at some point in time, plus some new stuff they thought a standard would need
20:37:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the raytracer?
20:38:06 <olsner> so, the old stuff is old and messy, and the new stuff is committeed and sometimes useless
20:38:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, err, wasn't it you who said you wanted to make a non-euclidan raytracer
20:38:36 <olsner> (at least that's the impression I get - I'm no expert in posix)
20:40:04 <Vorpal> olsner, well, it is useful to study still. Learning both from what they did get right and from their mistakes. (Just think of the numerous different "create temporary file with unique name" functions...)
20:40:07 <olsner> lol, animated bunnies vs animated camels
20:42:26 <Vorpal> tmpnam, tempnam, mktemp, tmpfile, mkstemp...
20:43:50 * ais523 tries to figure out what something likely is if Vorpal describes it as a joke
20:47:17 <Vorpal> ais523, err. I was trying to explain the topic to zzo38, he asked about the first bit...
20:47:40 <Vorpal> ais523, "joke" is not exactly the right word. But well, I couldn't think of a better approximation...
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21:00:34 <oklopol> okay minecraft doesn't run on my computer
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21:05:37 <fizzie> oklopol: It's Java, of course it runs anywhere. ("Write once, run anywhere.")
21:06:38 -!- wareya has joined.
21:06:45 <oklopol> i mean i don't have the computational power for it
21:07:43 <fizzie> What if you twiddle the settings down to minimum? (It does sort-of need hardwarey 3D, I guess.)
21:08:09 <oklopol> so how do you put a box down
21:08:49 <oklopol> and what exactly can i do, or do i need to find the inspiration to build something massive right away
21:09:05 <oklopol> i certainly will not on this computer, but anyway
21:09:16 <fizzie> Right-clickery generally puts down a box.
21:09:27 <fizzie> Except if you try to right-click a thing.
21:12:51 <oklopol> you didn't answer, is there something i can do :D
21:13:08 <oklopol> this is really ugly, i thought the game would be textureless
21:17:44 <fizzie> I don't know what you can do; I just do things that make no sense.
21:17:59 <fizzie> Building a home is a common sort of thing, though.
21:18:04 <fizzie> Or digging them mines.
21:18:13 <fizzie> The latter nets you interesting stuff.
21:18:13 <oklopol> i guess that could be interesting
21:18:24 <oklopol> just feels a little restricted in 3d
21:18:25 <fizzie> And cavern-spelunking is always good, clean fun.
21:18:33 <fizzie> Except when you get eaten by zombies, but anyway.
21:19:02 <oklopol> where are all the zombies?
21:19:26 <oklopol> i just play one-player because the instructions for lanning were too complicated
21:21:06 <oklopol> how do you get more health
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21:27:52 <fizzie> There's evil critters around at night-time, and then in the caves you may find groups too.
21:27:59 <fizzie> You get health back by eating food.
21:28:10 <fizzie> Or at least some food.
21:29:26 <fizzie> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Category:Food has a nifty chart how much the different foods heal.
21:33:00 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, I'm installing Sun's JDK; should that make it work?
21:38:29 <fizzie> What was *that* about?
21:39:46 <Vorpal> <oklopol> i mean i don't have the computational power for it <--- try "fast graphics" (if alpha, and not classic)
21:40:54 <Vorpal> <fizzie> And cavern-spelunking is always good, clean fun. <-- except when it is "oh shit, fell 50 blocks, and landed in lava"
21:41:08 <nooga> how is this even possible
21:42:13 <nooga> i remember that one guy from gamedev.pl wrote a game that was multiplayer and allowed to mine and set blocks, build houses from block & stuff and it looked better than minecraft
21:42:21 <nooga> it was, huh, in 2003 ?
21:42:39 <nooga> how come that such a crap gets so many players and cash
21:42:40 <Vorpal> nooga, minecraft is intentionally retro though
21:43:14 <Vorpal> nooga, anyway good gameplay beats good graphics
21:43:32 <nooga> but it might have looked better
21:43:58 <Vorpal> nooga, well, is it classic or alpha? iirc alpha has a "better looking" mode. That mode is too slow for me though
21:44:07 <nooga> and if it looks like a game from early 90's it could run faster ona c2d laptop with A GRAPHIC CARD
21:44:14 <Vorpal> better looking I think means somewhat higher res textures
21:44:38 <nooga> i guess it's software rendered
21:44:49 <Vorpal> or well, it isn't for me
21:45:00 <nooga> why do i get 10 FPS?
21:45:05 <fizzie> And why on earth would you try to apply logic to popularity of a thing?
21:45:10 <Vorpal> runs fast on my sempron 3300+ with nvidia geforce 7600 GS (AGP)
21:45:11 <nooga> i play Half-Life 2 without any glitches on the same machine
21:45:54 <Vorpal> nooga, is it the free one or the one you have to pay for?
21:46:04 <Vorpal> if the latter you can set "fast graphics"
21:46:29 <Vorpal> well hm. That one runs fast too
21:46:33 <nooga> i guess it was written by some student in 2-3 days
21:46:40 <Vorpal> somewhat slower than the non-free
21:46:44 <fizzie> As far as speeds go, it animates just fine on my geforce-7-thousand-and-something box, don't know more.
21:47:01 <fizzie> Haven't tried the in-browser things ever, though.
21:47:02 <nooga> "well, i know a bit of java and we did opengl during the classes so uh, i will write funny game" he thought
21:47:11 <Vorpal> nooga, ran fine on some a pentium m with intel graphics yesterday
21:47:19 <Vorpal> both the free one and the non-free
21:47:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, by performing the act of spelunking!
21:47:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if you don't know the word, try google.
21:48:35 <Vorpal> also digging straight down = sudden death (except for the free one, but the free one is rather boring compared to the non-free)
21:49:15 <fizzie> You can dig a shaft straight down and leave a spiral staircase around, if you want.
21:49:32 <fizzie> A regular 45 degree stairway-mine is easier, though.
21:49:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, just don't dig straight below you, that is a bad idea
21:50:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I suspect the 45° one is somewhat easier to mincartise.
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21:52:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, though I haven't used mine crafts for much vertical travel so far. Built a transport system between 4 stations though.
21:52:29 <Vorpal> that was just below the surface
21:53:00 <Vorpal> I found that on top of the ground was a bad idea, animals mess up your boosters and what not
22:04:23 <nooga> how about other players?
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22:54:12 <Vorpal> elliott, btw, I bought minecraft
22:54:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what did you read?
22:54:46 <Vorpal> me buying closed source?
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23:13:14 <nooga> Vorpal: was it worth it?
23:14:11 <Vorpal> nooga, just 94 SEK too, not very expensive
23:14:35 <Vorpal> err, 94.84, so rounded wrong way
23:15:01 <Vorpal> nooga, iirc the author said he would double the price after alpha, but if you bought it now it will continue being available then
23:15:27 <Vorpal> nooga, anyway you can find a slightly old version at a certain bay. I used that to make sure I would like it
23:15:29 <nooga> what an impertinence
23:15:47 <Vorpal> wouldn't have bought it without being able to try it
23:16:27 <Quadlex> Minecraft is cheap at thrice the price
23:16:38 <Vorpal> Quadlex, no, it wouldn't be
23:16:40 <Quadlex> Vorpal: You asked your uncle Torrence if you could try it first?
23:17:06 <Vorpal> Quadlex, actually found the linux version linked in a comment that he made
23:17:46 <nooga> cheesy virtual lego for 4 packs of cigarettes
23:18:00 <Vorpal> Quadlex, it was actually aunt Eitch T. Teepee that provided it thus.
23:26:36 <zzo38> Does Frama-C support the #line command?
23:31:11 <Vorpal> nooga, frama-c is an awesome tool for formal verification of C code.
23:31:59 <olsner> hehe, I seem to have made user-space run with kernel privileges
23:37:11 <Quadlex> Vorpal: Ahh, she's a useful old broad
23:38:04 <zzo38> I think the only thing needed to use Frama-C with Enhanced CWEB is if Frama-C supports the #line command, and then a code such as @=/*@@...*/@> can be used to enter the comments needed for Frama-C.
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00:00:48 <Gregor> Seeing as that #line has no semantic behavior, I'm gonna go with "who cares if it supports it"
00:05:44 <olsner> bah, turned out I needed another bunch of segments for user space, I have *eight* of the bastards now
00:06:23 <olsner> and this is for long mode which was supposed to do away with segmentation
00:07:20 <zzo38> Gregor: Well, I suppose the error messages will be harder to read if it doesn't support #line command. (Even then, it might be possible to make a program which filters the error messages and reads the #line commands to convert them)
00:08:06 <zzo38> (That is, the output of Frama-C (or any other program that does something like that) is piped to the filter program)
00:15:15 <pikhq> olsner: In long mode, you cannot have segments that are smaller than the entire memory space.
00:15:54 <pikhq> olsner: Unfortunately, it still uses segmentation for its idea of kernelspace and userspace seperation.
00:16:25 * pikhq concludes that qemu's I/O is really insanely slow when it has to expand a disk image.
00:24:46 <coppro> this problem should not be hard
00:24:52 <coppro> why am I spending >\epsilon time on it
00:31:42 <zzo38> The FSF has a list of free software licenses incompatible with the GNU GPL. Some of them is because you are required to change the name of the software. Didn't they fix that with GPL v3, to allow the software to have the additional restriction that you cannot call it the same thing as the official version?
00:31:51 <zzo38> (Maybe I am wrong, but I don't know.)
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00:38:02 <Vorpal> <olsner> bah, turned out I needed another bunch of segments for user space, I have *eight* of the bastards now <-- paging! ;P
00:51:15 <zzo38> If GCC had a -Wcast-spell option, what would it do anyways?
00:53:33 <Gregor> zzo38: Warn when you do casts which are likely wrong due to typos.
00:55:07 <zzo38> Gregor: That seems correct.
00:56:29 <zzo38> Yes, that is what it would do, I guess. (Of course it doesn't exist; I even tried it. It was in a list of joke options for GCC)
00:58:41 <Gregor> Along with -vomit-frame-pointer
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01:16:57 <pikhq> Bweheheh. Qemu's snapshotting ability lets me get around load times.
01:17:19 <pikhq> Take *that*, PC games!
01:20:07 <Gregor> OMG best idea ever. swap over nbd.
01:21:30 <Gregor> 1) sshfs (the FUSE one)
01:21:41 <Gregor> 2) losetup /dev/loop0 <whatever>/swapfile
01:21:55 <Gregor> Swapping can context-switch to a program, which may be swapped out!
01:23:21 <zzo38> pikhq: But, did you consider about the Random Number Hole?
01:37:51 <pikhq> Gregor: ... Oh dear God the consequences of that.
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01:38:41 <Sgeo> Random Number Hole?
01:38:44 <Gregor> Can you say KERNEL-MODE INFINITE LOOP?
01:46:18 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that places like Fark and Reddit must sound to Freepers what Freepers sound to places like Fark and Reddit
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01:46:29 <Sgeo> I'd love to see Freeper reaction to a Fark thread, for some balance
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01:57:57 <pikhq> Sgeo: You'd have to go a *bit* further left for that.
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02:04:39 <zzo38> I am writing the book "Literate Programming Hacks", it describes use and examples of Enhanced CWEB, as well as various tricks that you can make with it. You can read so far if you want to, make suggestions, contributions, questions, ideas, please.
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02:13:08 <zzo38> And tell me if you found any typing mistakes, too.
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02:26:49 <Gregor> pikhq: DAMN IT ME. FYTHE IS SO AWESOMETERRIBLE. ARGH.
02:29:59 <pikhq> Gregor: DO TELL, ÞEE.
02:30:17 <Gregor> Implementing the transform engine in C is painful :P
02:32:27 <Gregor> The final transform from IR -> runnable code is part of the transform engine, so it's not knottable.
02:32:48 <calamari> so I thought my computer was halfway decent until I just spent the last few hours waiting for an ubuntu stock kernel to compile
02:33:26 <pikhq> Insufficient magic.
02:33:34 <pikhq> calamari: *Few hours*?
02:33:40 <pikhq> calamari: Dear God that's sad.
02:34:02 <calamari> I've always made custom kernels with just what I needed in them
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02:56:58 <Gregor> To be fair, Ubuntu's stock kernel probably builds with (!ships) basically every module in the source.
02:57:32 <pikhq> Gregor: Still should only take an hour or so.
02:59:02 <Gregor> Not if I built it on my ChiPad!
03:02:21 <pikhq> How much swap does that thing have?
03:02:49 * pikhq waits as Gregor sets up a terabyte swap device via nbd before answering
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03:03:43 <pikhq> Good, it can definitely build then.
03:07:39 <calamari> it's going in some kind of loop
03:12:28 <zzo38> A different kind of Monty Hall problem is as thus: The contestant selects one of three doors. One has a car, two have goats. Monty Hall opens one that the contestant didn't select which contains a goat (using a satellite to control the doors). One goat always tells the truth and one goat always lies. The problem is: Who is the liar?
03:14:23 <pikhq> Answer: develop a taste for cheese made from goat's milk, and make cheese.
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04:11:30 <pikhq> D'awww. Missed moment of awesome. Carl Sagan wanted "Here Comes the Sun" (by The Beatles) on the Voyager record. EMI refused.
04:22:51 <Sgeo> Shouldn't that be the Beatles's decision? (Assuming they were still around)
04:24:56 <pikhq> That's not how copyright law works.
04:25:09 <pikhq> Because it's written by a bunch of phalluses.
04:26:58 * Sgeo vaguely imagines Voyager landing somewhere and destroying life just as it's beginning to form
04:27:18 <Sgeo> That's probably incredibly unlikely, but it would be... disturbing
04:27:52 <Sgeo> Actually, what's Voyager's final fate likely to be?
04:28:06 <Sgeo> Hit star, black hole, drift until universe ends?
04:31:28 <pikhq> "Star Trek: The Motion Picture".
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04:31:49 <pikhq> (which is not a terrible film, but has *major* pacing issues...)
04:34:22 <Gregor> Sgeo: As dictated by Star Trek XI, its final fate is that it never existed in the first place :P
04:34:59 * Sgeo builds a Cathedral
04:35:33 <Sgeo> Wow, I suck at references
04:35:42 <pikhq> Sgeo: Nah, I got the reference.
04:35:55 <Sgeo> Yeah, but could have said something that made more sense
04:36:16 <Sgeo> Like "/me joins the campaign for real time"
04:36:25 <pikhq> Okay, true, that would've helped a lot.
04:37:08 <Sgeo> It's been so long since I read that book that the only reason I remember anything about that is because I saw it on Wikipedia :/
04:37:43 <pikhq> It's been a couple months since I last listened to the radio series.
04:38:09 <pikhq> The book... I would have reread it sometime in the past couple years, but I don't know where my copy is.
04:38:13 <Sgeo> Can I legally listen to the series for free?
04:38:39 <pikhq> Not unless you have a time machine.
04:39:24 <Sgeo> There is a campaign for real tea...
04:40:16 <Sgeo> No there isn't, but there's someone saying there should be
04:40:21 <Sgeo> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/3563374/Letters-to-the-Telegraph.html
04:40:37 <Sgeo> And the word Cathedral right there is why this thing came up in my google search
04:41:55 <pikhq> There is, however, a standard cup of tea.
04:43:56 <Sgeo> According to wiki, it's more for documenting the making of a cup of tea
04:44:11 <Sgeo> Rather than standardizing a cup of ... oh, hm
04:44:21 <pikhq> It still allows you to produce and ISO standard cup of tea.
04:45:46 <pikhq> Oooh. Andre Geim received the Ig Nobel Prize in Physics in 2000, and the *Nobel* Prize in Physics in 2010.
04:46:23 <Sgeo> I'm going to guess that the Ig Nobel is for the tea? What's the Nobel for?
04:46:35 <pikhq> Ig Nobel for magleving a frog.
04:47:00 <pikhq> Nobel for experiments with graphene.
04:53:00 * Sgeo manages to confirm that someone's saying ISO-0xC0FFEE was, in fact, a joke unrelated to the number 3103
04:53:10 <Sgeo> Without using anything to do the actual conversion
04:53:28 <Sgeo> (Factor was loading too slowly)
04:55:42 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> 0xC0FFEE looks a bit too large to be 3103, but I'm checkin... 1 2 4 8 | 16 32 64 128 | 256 512 1024 2048 | 4096
04:55:42 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> No way 3103 has more than 3 hex digits
04:56:04 <Sgeo> I don't know why I'm saying this
04:58:27 <pikhq> Because 0xC0FFEE should be a real standard.
04:58:32 <pikhq> Preferably for coffee.
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05:14:08 <zzo38> If you earn the Ig Nobel prize and Nobel prize both for the same thing, then you win.
05:14:31 <zzo38> Is there METAFONT files for Creative Commons licenses?
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05:34:40 <pikhq> zzo38: I agree. That would be win.
05:39:11 <Sgeo> Was about to say something like "If I die in a fire tonight, it's because I left the dryer on while I slept", but I'm deciding I'll continue drying the clothes tomorrow morning
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05:52:49 <pikhq> Clearly Sgeo's "dryer" is a blowtorch.
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13:14:41 <Gregor> Are there any free SSL cert providers that don't suck as hard as startSSL X_X
13:15:02 <Gregor> (Observing that CAcert sucks much, much more since nobody recognizes them)
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13:34:33 <fizzie> I doubt there are any; I was in fact a bit surprised about StartSSL being as reasonable as it is. How exactly do they suck?
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14:17:12 <elliott> 08:00:36 <mycroftiv> elliott: I know you weren't talking to me, but by a wonderful coincidence "make it detect the client" was actually good helpful advice for a software project I'm working on, so thanks!
14:17:17 <elliott> mycroftiv: also, it's more than 15
14:17:19 <elliott> more helpful advice for you
14:18:04 <elliott> 12:36:40 <olsner> probably my own API, posix is overrated
14:18:10 <elliott> kinder words than I'd choose
14:18:31 <elliott> 12:43:50 * ais523 tries to figure out what something likely is if Vorpal describes it as a joke
14:18:31 <elliott> 12:43:57 <ais523> a... sentence?
14:19:28 <elliott> 13:42:13 <nooga> i remember that one guy from gamedev.pl wrote a game that was multiplayer and allowed to mine and set blocks, build houses from block & stuff and it looked better than minecraft
14:19:28 <elliott> 13:42:21 <nooga> it was, huh, in 2003 ?
14:19:28 <elliott> 13:42:39 <nooga> how come that such a crap gets so many players and cash
14:19:34 <elliott> 13:42:40 <Vorpal> nooga, minecraft is intentionally retro though
14:19:34 <elliott> 13:42:51 <nooga> i don't think so
14:19:43 <elliott> 13:43:14 <Vorpal> nooga, anyway good gameplay beats good graphics
14:19:44 <elliott> 13:43:24 <nooga> that's true
14:19:44 <elliott> 13:43:32 <nooga> but it might have looked better
14:20:00 <elliott> 13:44:38 <nooga> i guess it's software rendered
14:20:00 <elliott> 13:44:45 <Vorpal> nooga, no it isn't
14:20:00 <elliott> 13:44:49 <Vorpal> or well, it isn't for me
14:20:00 <elliott> 13:44:49 <fizzie> It's OpenGL.
14:20:00 <elliott> 13:44:52 <nooga> then WTF?!
14:20:01 <elliott> 13:45:00 <nooga> why do i get 10 FPS?
14:20:05 <elliott> Because the rendering depth is ridiculous.
14:20:11 <elliott> 13:46:33 <nooga> i guess it was written by some student in 2-3 days
14:20:21 <elliott> 13:47:02 <nooga> "well, i know a bit of java and we did opengl during the classes so uh, i will write funny game" he thought
14:20:30 <elliott> I wonder what uniformly-sized 3D blocks did to you as a child to inspire this hatred.
14:21:06 <elliott> 15:15:29 <nooga> what an impertinence
14:21:07 <elliott> 15:16:00 <nooga> i hate the author
14:21:10 <elliott> 15:17:46 <nooga> cheesy virtual lego for 4 packs of cigarettes
14:21:38 <elliott> Quite an advanced stage of addiction where it's bad and wrong of someone to ask for more money than it takes for N of what you're addicted to.
14:21:45 <fizzie> Wow, I didn't notice that last bit. That's some quality hate there.
14:21:48 <elliott> Also, nobody is forcing you to buy the horrible student non-retro slow game of evil.
14:21:56 <elliott> You know, if you don't want to.
14:23:12 <elliott> fizzie: Mind, if real-life lego had zombies and mining...
14:24:45 <fizzie> Also really tiny portals to hell.
14:25:00 <elliott> fizzie: I have been unable to find them. :-(
14:25:07 <fizzie> You need to build them.
14:25:08 <elliott> fizzie: I am not the good at Minecraft.
14:25:18 <elliott> fizzie: Oh. It has to be said that I have also been unable to craft a single thing.
14:25:36 <fizzie> You need to build them out of obsidian, though, and obsidian is rather rare and tricky.
14:26:17 <fizzie> You need a diamond pick to mine it with, and it's oh-so-slow with that too; and naturally occurring obsidian usually sits directly on top of lava, so it's hard-ish to collect. You can make your own, though.
14:27:03 <elliott> fizzie: Man, and all I do is hit pigs and go downwards.
14:27:30 <elliott> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/images/2/2d/Natural_obsidian.png Wait, where is the Obsidian here?
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14:28:24 <elliott> * Note: Going past the Bedrock barrier will kill you, reason being is that the world ends and you will fall to you death and you won't be able to place block to save yourself due to being far below the closest block.
14:29:03 <elliott> fizzie: I like the "economy portal"; http://www.minecraftwiki.net/images/f/fa/Portalcomparison.png.
14:29:34 <fizzie> Yeah, all my (two) portals are the economy models.
14:29:40 <elliott> "When re-entering the normal world, any distance covered in The Nether is multiplied by 8 times, effectively making The Nether a fast travel zone that allows for greater distances to be covered in a short amount of time in the normal world."
14:29:43 <fizzie> But I filled the corners with that red hell-stone.
14:30:12 <elliott> fizzie: You should feed Minepedia into fungot.
14:30:51 <fizzie> Just about everything is "Physics: No", only sand and gravel fall down.
14:31:12 <fizzie> I should, but I doubt they have XML data dumps for me, and scraping is so impure.
14:31:16 <elliott> Bah, it's funny! So shush.
14:32:14 <elliott> fizzie: Minecraft monsters freak me out.
14:32:33 <fizzie> They are pretty scary.
14:32:40 <elliott> All those moabs (pronunciation-accurate!)
14:33:08 <elliott> fizzie: So far, every time I encounter them I just try and whack them with whatever block I'm holding. That ... that rarely goes well.
14:33:35 <fizzie> Yeah, maybe you should make a stone sword or something.
14:34:41 <elliott> fizzie: That would require learning how to craft.
14:35:22 <fizzie> You craft things up to 2x2 size in the inventory (i), and larger with the workbench (made with 2x2 planks). But of course if you have some sort of ideological opposition...
14:35:23 <elliott> [["Rana" were mobs who resembled little girls with frog hats. They were originally in-game as a test; Rana was made by "Dock", Minecraft's past artist, for another project of his. The player's character was supposed to look like Rana, albeit with a miner hat, no ponytails and a different skin. This was scrapped with Dock's removal, with a fair few people arguing for her to stay.]]
14:35:56 <elliott> fizzie: Well, it's just that I'd have to collect blocks and stuff to craft, and who likes doing that?
14:36:22 <elliott> fizzie: Also, it'd feel too much like a *game*.
14:36:41 <elliott> fizzie: Are you meant to figure out the recipes by yourself?
14:36:51 <elliott> Somehow I doubt anyone actually does :P
14:37:37 <fizzie> But I'm sure there's at least one "purist" in the world.
14:37:54 <elliott> "Used to hold Mushroom Stew. The player keeps the bowl when they eat the stew."
14:37:58 <elliott> Eat the stew, keep the bowl!
14:38:23 <elliott> fizzie: it seems that i am too disillusioned with minecraft to play it after thinking of Dwarf Fortress ONLINE
14:38:34 <elliott> best game?? no. only game.
14:39:02 <elliott> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Creeper AAAAAAAAH
14:39:03 <fizzie> Yes, Dwarf Fortress is indubitably far more eXtreme.
14:39:38 <fizzie> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Zombie_Pigman is a bit... too.
14:40:18 <elliott> fizzie: At least that isn't camouflaged.
14:40:25 <elliott> fizzie: Now I'm wondering what Dwarf Fortress 3D would be like.
14:40:59 <elliott> "By editing the mob's files, it is possible to make the slimes much bigger, some values creating 50 block high slimes."
14:43:36 <elliott> [[ New plan: Whenever someone tells me to "fix smp" or similar, I will work on something else for four hours!]]
14:43:44 <elliott> Assuming SMP is what I think it is, I wonder what problems people have been having.
14:44:39 <elliott> "Creepers are misunderstood creatures. Try to befriend them instead of hurting them! A friendly pat on the back should do it!" ;; oh dear god
14:46:59 <elliott> fizzie: I don't want to scare you or anything, but Creepers carry records. It is probable that they have found jukeboxes too, and have some form of civilisation and intelligence.
14:47:15 <fizzie> In minecraft parlance, SMP is Survival MultiPlayer.
14:47:22 <fizzie> And that's buggey as Nether.
14:47:31 <elliott> fizzie: Ahhhh. (Wait, how do you do that?)
14:48:27 <fizzie> Minecarts don't work there, and all mobs (as well as players) are unkillable; the server doesn't track health.
14:48:51 <fizzie> On the plus side, you can jump from top of the map to bottom for fast one-directional vertical travel.
14:49:13 <fizzie> I actually jumped down my mine-shaft in single-player mode before thinking.
14:49:43 <elliott> fizzie: I will not be satisfied until I get a portal on the very bottom of a level, somehow flat, go inside, dig a hole all the way down, get back into the portal, build a tower to the very top of a level, and ... drop
14:50:02 <elliott> <fizzie> I actually jumped down my mine-shaft in single-player mode before thinking. ;; What I do is, I destroy the block below me. Forever.
14:50:13 <ais523> elliott: this reminds me of the volcanos in Dwarf Fortress
14:50:26 <elliott> fizzie: Then I collect a bunch of blocks -- uh, you know, those really easy to destroy ones? -- and build my way back up my shaft.
14:50:33 <elliott> (Uh, except worded less like that.)
14:50:40 <ais523> apparently, they were originally a bug caused by lava falling down a bottomless pit, overflowing it, and falling back on from the top of the screen
14:50:54 <elliott> wait, *overflowing* a *bottomless* pit?
14:51:04 <ais523> elliott: it's a MAXINT pit
14:51:18 <elliott> ais523: impressive to get MAXINT lava
14:51:33 <ais523> well, I suppose it depends on the units, and the size of the integers
14:51:41 <ais523> I wouldn't be surprised if they were using shorts or even chars there to save memory
14:54:10 <elliott> anyone want to lend me a server farm?
14:54:16 <elliott> with a decent network pipe?
14:54:33 <fizzie> Just put whatever you want to the cloud.
14:54:52 <fizzie> Of course money will fly out too, but them's the breaks.
14:54:54 <elliott> fizzie: ...how... Look at the first line of http://sprunge.us/SFFO X-D
14:55:17 <elliott> fizzie: (The bot, there, is meant to be running on $some_random_server. I refuse to use the term "cloud", only make snarky references to it in nomenclature.)
14:55:41 <elliott> I hypothesise that fizzie has read my mind.
14:55:52 <fizzie> It could be the other way around, too.
14:56:13 <fizzie> Didn't you just do your psychic "more than 15" stuff.
14:56:37 <elliott> fizzie: If that was the case, you'd have asked for a server farm to implement that on first!
14:56:42 <elliott> Actually I think I've mentioned the idea to ais523 before.
14:56:52 <elliott> (fizzie's mind is in fact patented.)
14:59:50 <fizzie> "Document is currently being inspected. Please allow 7-10 days. No action is required by you at this time." 19 days already! Stop being in that state!
15:00:22 <elliott> fizzie: This is what you get for STEALING MY IDEA.
15:03:06 <elliott> Things worse then Apple regularly spamming you because you did, at one point, buy an Apple product: Apple spamming you about Microsoft Office 2011 being out for OS X.
15:09:51 <ais523> elliott: I'm not sure either
15:09:56 <elliott> ais523: "wait what?" at what?
15:10:04 <ais523> oh, Apple spamming about a Microsoft product
15:10:26 <elliott> Subject: Introducing Microsoft Office for Mac 2011.
15:10:38 <ais523> (Apple spamming about the availability of a Windows Phone 7 sync app for Mac OS X would be funnier, though)
15:10:47 <elliott> ais523: Apple and Microsoft have an agreement of some sort there, I think.
15:11:04 <elliott> ais523: They sell it in the online store and all, and advertise it on the sites of the various Mac models.
15:11:08 <ais523> where Microsoft advertises, umm, Safari for Windows?
15:11:21 <ais523> (acually, Microsoft /do/ advertise Safari for Windows, but only because the EU told them to)
15:11:36 <elliott> ais523: No, where Apple advertises office and Microsoft do nothing because Apple couldn't possibly make demands :)
15:11:49 <elliott> I bet it does get conversions out of the "...but what about my precious Office???" crowd though.
15:11:55 <elliott> Does Office for Mac 2011 support Visual Basic?
15:12:04 <elliott> [[Yes. Office for Mac 2011 comes with VBA 6.5, ported from Office for Windows. According to Macworld magazine this version of VBA will give Mac users all the latest VBA tools and be fully compatible with Office. So if you create macros on your Mac they "should work just fine" in Windows.]]
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15:14:37 <fizzie> I tried "Office v. X" for a bit on the iBook there; it was, well, reasonable, I guess. (Seems like 2011 will be >=10.5 must-be-Intel though.)
15:16:33 <elliott> fizzie: Do you really still have OS X on there?
15:18:00 <fizzie> I do have that Ubuntu dual-boot thing going on, but it's a lot more noisy laptop when in Linux. (Either the temperature tolerances or just something about fan control or power-saving in general could do with some tuning.)
15:18:10 <elliott> "Commerce and business will shift from offices and malls to networks and modems. [...] Baloney. Do our computer pundits lack all common sense? The truth in no online database will replace your daily newspaper, no CD-ROM can take the place of a competent teacher and no computer network will change the way government works. [...] Yet Nicholas Negroponte, director of the MIT Media Lab, predicts that we'll soon buy books and newspapers straight over
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15:19:01 <fizzie> Did he say why it's baloney? (Bologna!)
15:19:36 <elliott> fizzie: No, not really. http://www.newsweek.com/1995/02/26/the-internet-bah.html
15:19:46 <elliott> [[What the Internet hucksters won't tell you is tht the Internet is one big ocean of unedited data, without any pretense of completeness. Lacking editors, reviewers or critics, the Internet has become a wasteland of unfiltered data. You don't know what to ignore and what's worth reading. Logged onto the World Wide Web, I hunt for the date of the Battle of Trafalgar. Hundreds of files show up, and it takes 15 minutes to unravel them—one's a biog
15:19:46 <elliott> raphy written by an eighth grader, the second is a computer game that doesn't work and the third is an image of a London monument. None answers my question, and my search is periodically interrupted by messages like, "Too many connectios, try again later."]]
15:19:51 <elliott> fizzie: That's pretty much the only, uh, argument in there.
15:20:08 <elliott> Of course, now we can get our unedited, inaccurate information from one place: Wikipedia!
15:20:37 <elliott> [[ Every voice is heard. The cacophany more closely resembles citizens band radio, complete with handles, harrasment, and anonymous threats.]]
15:21:02 <elliott> fizzie: It's the guy who sells http://www.kleinbottle.com/.
15:21:11 <elliott> fizzie: And also wrote The Cuckoo's Egg.
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15:21:19 <ais523> elliott: at least Wikipedia is usually right, despite being inaccurate and unedited
15:21:22 <elliott> Well, who sells Klein bottles from that site, not who... sells that site.
15:21:28 <fizzie> Heh, it's again that "-- the myopic glow of a clunky computer replaces the friendly pages of a book" thing.
15:21:31 <elliott> ais523: Inaccurate true statements!
15:22:04 <fizzie> The Klein bottle thing is awesome, though; I've been thinking of buying one some day as a birthday self-present or something.
15:22:25 <elliott> fizzie: Slereah_ has the mug, I think.
15:22:43 <elliott> http://www.kleinbottle.com/drinking_mug_klein_bottle.htm This'un.
15:23:48 <fizzie> It sounds a bit too useful.
15:23:59 <elliott> fizzie: Haha -- [[Stoll was a regular contributor to MSNBC's The Site.]] -- [[The Site, hosted by Soledad O'Brien, was an hour-long TV program devoted to the Internet revolution.]]
15:24:13 <elliott> Wow, he even wrote a book on how the Web is rubbish; dedication.
15:24:17 <fizzie> What I'd like to see is a restaurant that randomly served this http://www.kleinbottle.com/wine_bottle_klein_bottle.html to people ordering wine.
15:24:30 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e2/Devnull.gif Oh wow, he's called "Dev Null".
15:25:24 <elliott> "For optimal aerodynamic performance, your Wine Bottle Klein Bottle has smooth, spline-like curves."
15:25:27 <fizzie> Like they say: "Guaranteed to frustrate even the most dedicated wine connoisseur: it's difficult to fill, difficult to pour, and difficult to clean."
15:27:57 <elliott> bash-4.1 egobf-0.7.1 ick-0.-2.0.29 perl-5.12.2 ruby-1.9.2-p0
15:27:58 <elliott> CLC-INTERCAL-1.-94.-2 emacs-23.2 nginx-0.8.53 Python-2.7 zsh-4.3.10
15:28:06 <elliott> fizzie: Quick, give me other software that has something like a ./configure script to install!
15:28:53 <fizzie> Sorry, I need to run to a bus. NASM has a configure script. ->
15:30:10 <ais523> elliott: does it all work, in addition to installing?
15:30:42 <elliott> ais523: well, you have to set $PERL5LIB for CLC-INTERCAL, but yes.
15:30:46 <elliott> ais523: (that's to be expected, though)
15:31:10 -!- aloril has joined.
15:31:28 * elliott tries to figure out why "aloril" rings a bell...
15:31:31 <ais523> I'm actually impressed with ick here for finding all its libaries and so in in the right place
15:31:57 <elliott> ais523: it's probably a sign of madness that I want to make it read Makefiles and detect a --prefix-esque variable and a relevant target (e.g. for programs that have platform-specific targets), right?
15:31:59 <elliott> for non-autotools programs
15:32:20 <ais523> elliott: it's the good sort of madness; flow with it, don't fight it
15:32:37 <ais523> I don't see what Python has to do with it
15:32:46 <elliott> ais523: Parsing Makefiles with Python seems odd.
15:33:01 <ais523> hmm, perhaps, mostly because it's neither make(1), sed, nor Perl
15:33:32 <elliott> The thing make's written in?
15:33:47 <elliott> I'll try nasm, because I'm crazy, ha ha.
15:33:57 <zzo38> The company that makes the klein bottle has a lifetime guarantee that you will live your entire lifetime.
15:35:11 <elliott> ais523: oh, by the way, if you ever release a tarball that ends in -src.tar.gz or -src-unix.tar.gz or such silliness, my program will hate you even more
15:35:20 <elliott> I'm going to have to work around that for other programs...
15:36:49 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ /opt/nasm-2.09.03/bin/nasm
15:36:49 <elliott> nasm: error: no input file specified
15:42:40 <elliott> dear god @ Inkscape's interface
15:44:32 <ais523> for using, or for compiling?
15:46:54 <zzo38> elliott: What about Inkscape's interface? (I don't use Inkscape, so I don't know)
15:47:04 <elliott> ais523: using; Debian comes with it
15:48:23 <elliott> ais523: http://imgur.com/SOvrL.png, if you care
15:52:44 <pikhq> zzo38: I love Acme Klein Bottles.
15:53:17 <elliott> pikhq: Psht; doesn't he know that e-commerce is a stillborn concept?
15:53:54 <elliott> pikhq: (If you didn't see, he wrote an article in 1995 claiming so.)
15:54:10 <pikhq> I'll grant, his website design is very very bland. Like a '95 website design done by someone sane.
15:54:36 <elliott> pikhq: (As well as seemingly rejecting the idea of Amazon a year after it was founded.)
15:54:44 <pikhq> Actually, more than "Like". It is.
15:55:54 <zzo38> I think GF-Magick is more better instead of Inkscape try it maybe, it is not cluttered?
15:56:24 <zzo38> Try this program tell me if it can work for you or not, or other question/complaint. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/gfmagick/gfmagick.zip
15:56:26 <elliott> zzo38: Are you using ImageMagick or GraphicsMagick?
15:56:27 <pikhq> zzo38: I'm pretty sure the two have completely different usecases.
15:56:42 <pikhq> Much like the GIMP and ImageMagick.
15:57:14 <zzo38> elliott: ImageMagick. Although, you might be able to get it to work with GraphicsMagick too (you can try if you want to).
15:57:32 <elliott> zzo38: You should probably use GraphicsMagick; ImageMagick development is dead and GraphicsMagick is much better maintained.
15:58:35 <elliott> zzo38: Also, ImageMagick is now under corporate control, and the corporation isn't very community-friendly.
15:59:07 <elliott> zzo38: GraphicsMagick is also a lot smaller and faster than ImageMagick and it has fewer dependencies, too.
16:00:08 <elliott> zzo38: Plus the interface is compatible (for the command-line interface, simply put "gm " in front of every command, e.g. "gm mogrify ...".)
16:00:47 <Vorpal> <elliott> fizzie: I have been unable to find them. :-( <-- not in the old version, if you were still using that
16:01:02 <Vorpal> also it seems buggy to me
16:01:07 <zzo38> Maybe I can do that. ImageMagick, even if under corporate control is still free software. But if GraphicsMagick is smaller and faster and compatible, then is probably much more better. Maybe in some time I will insteall GraphicsMagick.
16:01:17 <Vorpal> I end up in different portals different times. And so on
16:02:01 <elliott> Vorpal: I thought Nether portals were far downwards.
16:02:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway doesn't it auto-update? It can tell I'm not premium so presumably it connects to the server.
16:02:20 <elliott> Or does it only update if I'm premium?
16:02:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well updating requires you to login and get a session token
16:02:38 <Vorpal> elliott, so yeah, only if premium
16:03:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Don't suppose I could -- hypothetically -- not have a couple of non-files from somewhere that isn't ~/.minecraft to not get a more inaccurate perception of the game as it isn't, hypothetical non-cough?
16:03:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:03:24 <elliott> Ah! The hypothetical non-phantom hoover.
16:03:39 <zzo38> elliott: Again I will tell you, that you might be able to get GF-Magick to work with GraphicsMagick, it should not be difficult to make the change (either the .w file can be fixed to allow GraphicsMagick, or a .ch file can be written to compile the program to work with GraphicsMagick instead.)
16:03:58 <elliott> zzo38: Okay. (Again? When did you say this previously?)
16:06:33 <zzo38> Tell me if you can use this program or if you understand this program or whatever, too.
16:06:37 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: \\\).
16:07:42 <ais523> pikhq: sometimes it's fun wondering which of two inappropriate programs are best for a particular job
16:08:30 <elliott> ais523: would you rather edit text files with the GIMP or Rhythmbox?
16:08:55 <ais523> I can't figure out how rhythmbox would do it at all
16:09:09 <elliott> ais523: Ooh, wait, I have a better inappropriate program.
16:09:17 <elliott> ais523: Would you rather edit text files with Rhythmbox or Emacs?
16:10:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Am I not allowed to playfully hate it, too?
16:12:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, just remove all the hypotheticals and the "not"s and you'll get what I ABSOLUTELY DIDN'T want to say.
16:12:10 <Vorpal> elliott, I just got back, and parse timeout on that hypothetical sentence
16:13:02 <Vorpal> elliott, possibly not, do you have somewhere to not scp them to?
16:13:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Er, I could create such a place.
16:13:15 <elliott> ais523: ubuntu.com WTF: "Originally coined in 1998, the term open source came out of the free software movement, a collaborative force going strong since the dawn of computing in the 1950s."
16:13:43 <elliott> ais523: (1) rms must hate them for associating open source and free software like that (2) oh yeah, all those FOSS programs of the 1950s
16:13:54 <elliott> Vorpal: In fact I am running an ssh server already; isn't that convenient?
16:14:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Now to figure how to jail your user.
16:14:12 <elliott> Wait, that was on the previous machine.
16:17:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wasn't programming mainly an academic venture in the 50s?
16:17:42 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. there wasn't a *point* in restricting the code, since about 3 other people in the world could possibly run it.
16:18:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, it's more that it never actually got released because yours was the only computer that could run it because nobody had standardised anything yet.
16:19:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I was about to add "and those people were all in the same room as you."
16:21:33 <elliott> "Bent Linux: small simple distro, statically linked against uClibc"
16:21:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, yes. Fortran too.
16:22:04 <elliott> Nobody else *modified* these programs.
16:22:07 <elliott> Even if they were in papers.
16:22:10 <elliott> So I think it's a stretch.
16:22:22 <Phantom_Hoover> True, but if you *wanted* to, noöne was going to bother doing anything about it.
16:23:02 <Phantom_Hoover> And of course, there were about 4 programs worth paying for at all, so you weren't exactly losing any profit.
16:23:17 <elliott> Which programs, exactly? :-P
16:27:21 -!- Sgeo has joined.
16:27:47 <Sgeo> Well, my professor is apparently incapable of checking her Perl programs for typos before she puts them on an exam
16:28:08 <Gregor> You ... have Perl programs ... in a college course ...
16:28:38 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but elliott is elliott :P
16:28:49 * Gregor , on the other hand, is Gregor!
16:28:53 <elliott> Gregor: His university *beyond* sucks.
16:29:11 <elliott> Gregor: It's the biggest, shittiest state university I can possibly imagine.
16:29:35 <Gregor> I go to a big state university :P
16:29:36 <Sgeo> I'm wondering if, once I graduate from here, I could get a Master's in CS from a decent university
16:29:50 <elliott> Gregor: It's called "Farmingdale".
16:29:59 <elliott> [[The Farmingdale State College, also known as SUNY Farmingdale, and also called Farmingdale State College, is the former Long Island Agricultural and Technical Institute or LIATI.]]
16:30:05 <elliott> Gregor: Agricultural and Technical Institute!
16:30:27 <Gregor> elliott: My university has two Poultry Science buildings.
16:30:39 <Phantom_Hoover> We should totally write a language in a West Country accent.
16:30:56 <elliott> Gregor: "Undergraduates: Over 6,800"; they lost count.
16:34:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Feersum Endjinn and The Algebraist are in the same universe!
16:37:55 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if he can shoehorn "Against a Dark Background" in.
16:37:58 <fizzie> Our university has a lot to do with wood. (Finland is a foresty place, they do I guess a lot of paper technology.)
16:38:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What about all his non-sci-fi too?
16:38:53 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, that can be stuffed into either the Culture or Hoovershoehorn universe.
16:42:40 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:42:56 <Vorpal> I think he just crashed his router
16:43:13 -!- elliott has joined.
16:46:52 <Sgeo> Was the problem that Gregor was complaining about was the word _program_ to describe Perl code?
16:46:58 <Sgeo> That's entirely my wording/fault
16:47:16 <Gregor> Sgeo: No, it was the presence of Perl in a university course.
16:51:18 <elliott> https://www.yourdomaingoeshere.com/openvz.php $9.88/mo for 512 MiB of RAM, now taking bets on how shit it will be :P
16:51:41 <fizzie> Gregor: Our natural language processing course had some Perl pre-processing scripts, too; what's wrong with that?
16:52:22 <elliott> [[Bent Linux is a compact Linux distro. It's inspired by LFS, but uses Busybox, uClibc, and static linking. It's particularly suited to building dedicated servers, initrds for custom installers and rescue disks, and systems with a nice crisp mid-1980s mouthfeel to satisfy the mid-life crises of crusty curmudgeons.]]
16:53:09 <fizzie> (Perhaps not in an exam, though.)
16:54:12 <ais523> <elliott> .cpio.bz2 based :-) <--- this is an abomination against the timeline of archival formats
16:54:23 <elliott> ais523: *a wonderful, wonderful abomination
16:54:49 <elliott> ais523: IIRC Gregor said some system (HP? IRIX?) used .bz2.cpio for packages.
16:55:02 <elliott> ais523: Which he held up as a good example of random-access archives, except that he said it's useless for packages.
16:55:34 <elliott> ("$ find foo -exec bzip2 '{} \; && tar cf foo.tar foo" or whatever. :P)
16:55:51 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:55:57 <ais523> .bz2.tar or whatever is entirely different from .tar.bz2
16:56:23 <ais523> elliott: I love the way you can have nostalgia from a period before you were born
16:57:09 <elliott> ais523: It's the best kind!
16:57:29 <elliott> ais523: I swear I'm 40-odd on the inside, except whingy.
16:58:10 <ais523> `addquote <Gregor> elliott: My university has two Poultry Science buildings. <Gregor> Two!
16:58:20 -!- Sgeo has joined.
16:58:26 <HackEgo> 255|<Gregor> elliott: My university has two Poultry Science buildings. <Gregor> Two!
16:58:30 <Sgeo> I assume that's expensive?
16:58:39 <ais523> see, I'm hoping that if I do this enough, a random `quote will actually be likely to return something interesting or funny
16:58:52 <elliott> ais523: it does! If you're me.
16:58:53 <ais523> also, we've almost run out of quotes, assuming HackEgo thinks in 8-bit
16:58:59 <HackEgo> 36|<Deewiant> ehird: There is no h in "honour"
16:59:10 <HackEgo> 15|<Lil`Cube> wouldn't that be considered pedophilia? <Quas_NaArt> No. They all go by stage names.
16:59:16 <HackEgo> 191|<Sgeo_>ARGARGARHAHRHARHA REDDIT ON CHROME IS FULL OF HATE
16:59:48 <Sgeo> It's still full of hate. Despite me getting a new computer.
16:59:55 <HackEgo> 29|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to get head twice at once
17:00:05 <HackEgo> 54|<lacota> I guess when you're immortal, mapping your fonts isn't necessary
17:00:15 <HackEgo> 105|<ehird> Gracenotes: No I said it does 54-bit
17:00:17 <HackEgo> 40|<ehird> That'd be the fahrenheit? I'm trying to have a mental breakdown here.
17:00:19 <HackEgo> 147|<ais523> (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?)
17:00:37 <HackEgo> 199|<Sgeo> Why shouldn't I just do everything in non-Microsoft-specific C#? <ais523> it's like trying to write non-IE-specific JavaScript with only Microsoft documentation and only IE to test on
17:00:49 <HackEgo> 134|<Warrigal> A person's sex is not the same thing as their penis length.
17:00:49 <HackEgo> 63|<fizzie> The thing is just to exist
17:01:20 <HackEgo> 183|* Phantom_Hoover wonders where the size of the compiled Linux kernel comes from. <cpressey> To comply with the GFDL, there's a copy of Wikipedia in there.
17:01:20 <HackEgo> 93|<Oranjer> oohhh <Oranjer> ha <Oranjer> heh <madbrain> and what are your other characteristics? <Oranjer> oh, many, madbrain <Oranjer> but it's hardly worth it to go on with listing that list here
17:01:32 <HackEgo> 244|<zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
17:01:52 <HackEgo> 175|<AnMaster> alise, marble <AnMaster> marbelus
17:01:53 <HackEgo> 12|<Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence
17:01:54 <HackEgo> 171|<fungot> alise: nobody is allowed to fnord me in soviet russia
17:02:04 <Sgeo> WTF is the context for the zzo thing?
17:02:26 <ais523> Sgeo: there probably wasn't any even at the time
17:02:49 <HackEgo> 98|<fungot> ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i"
17:02:51 <HackEgo> 243|<fungot> ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic
17:02:52 <HackEgo> 78|<GregorR> ??? <GregorR> Are the cocks actually just implanted dildos? <GregorR> Or are there monster dildos and cocks? <GregorR> Or are both the dildos and cocks monster?
17:03:20 <Sgeo> I really need to bring my quotes pages back up
17:03:27 <HackEgo> 167|<alise> like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English <ais523> alise: that's great filler <alise> ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language...
17:03:27 <HackEgo> 166|<oklopol> you move on the tape and shit
17:03:28 <HackEgo> 108|<Warrigal> It's not incest if you're third cousins!
17:04:05 <Gregor> <elliott> ais523: IIRC Gregor said some system (HP? IRIX?) used .bz2.cpio for packages.
17:04:09 <Gregor> It was .gz.tar, and HP-UX
17:04:31 <elliott> Gregor: Your mom's .gz.tar.
17:05:08 <Sgeo> W.. what purpose could that serve? Compress a single file for ... tar
17:05:27 <Gregor> elliott: OH GOD CONVERSATIONAL INFINITE LOOP RUN
17:05:39 <ais523> Sgeo: it makes the file smaller, obviously
17:05:51 <ais523> .gz.tar.gz would be ridiculous
17:05:53 <Sgeo> But why is it tar'd?
17:06:04 <ais523> Sgeo: because there's more than one file?
17:06:14 <elliott> I wish I could see how stupid Sgeo's being right now.
17:06:17 <ais523> also, to preserve permissions, etc
17:06:23 <Gregor> Sgeo: .tar.gz gives you a hierarchy of files but no random access. .tar gives you random access but no compression. .gz.tar gives you compression and random access.
17:06:57 <Sgeo> But how is it more than one fil.. oh, all the files in the .tar are gziped, I guess
17:07:00 <ais523> idea: truly random-access memory: you ask it for some data, and it gives you a byte back at random and lets you change it
17:07:04 * Sgeo should not take things so literally
17:07:23 <ais523> hmm, actually, perhaps it's random whether it writes or reads
17:07:51 * ais523 wonders if you could make this into a probabilistic TC system somehow, in the limit; it would be a form of analog storage
17:08:32 <elliott> Gregor: .zip is basically .gz.tar with CRC32 to boot, right?
17:08:51 <Gregor> And no UNIX file modes and such.
17:08:55 <ais523> is it the same algo as .gz?
17:09:01 <Gregor> ais523: Close enough *shrugs*
17:09:44 <elliott> ais523: gzip is "GNU zip", i.e. "like zip but we changed everything so we can make it Free".
17:10:01 <ais523> I thought it was inspired by compress(1)
17:10:05 <elliott> GNU zip implements the gzip format.
17:10:17 <Sgeo> Can gzip actually handle multiple files?
17:10:25 <elliott> ais523: Perhaps, but I'm fairly sure the zip name is based on PK-ZIP...
17:10:27 <ais523> no, it's not an archival format
17:10:35 <elliott> <ais523> no, it's not an archival format
17:10:35 <ais523> elliott: potentially indirectly, but I agree
17:10:48 <ais523> elliott: gzip isn't, it doesn't store multiple files
17:10:52 <ais523> it's just a compression format
17:10:59 <Sgeo> For the record, that's what I thought
17:11:09 <Sgeo> I just had a panick attack with the idea that I might have been wrong
17:11:10 <elliott> ais523: oh, just checked logs; (sorry, I have Sgeo on ignore... and spent 10 seconds trying to reword this sentence so I didn't mention that)
17:11:24 <elliott> hmm, "a; (b)", what odd grammar of me
17:11:49 <ais523> apparently, some zip algos (including gzip, I think) store the permissions of the file, which is acting like an archival format a bit
17:12:14 <ais523> hmm, also, why does gzip defy the normal conventions of UNIX programs, and also the normal conventions of GNU programs?
17:12:36 <elliott> I HATE unX decompressors that destroy the original file.
17:12:36 <ais523> I'd expect to use gzip as "gzip archive.tar -o archive.tar.gz", and still have the original
17:12:37 <Gregor> gzip doesn't store the permissions, it just preserves them.
17:12:58 <elliott> ais523: *My* favourite archival format is {.ar}^∞.
17:13:04 <Gregor> If you gzip foo, foo.gz has the same permissions as foo had.
17:13:10 <ais523> elliott: you'll love the syntax for using azip; "azip archive.tar > archive.tar.az" (alternatively "azip < archive.tar > archive.tar.az")
17:13:12 <Gregor> Even if those permissions make no sense for the gzipped file.
17:13:21 <ais523> Gregor: I think it stores them inside the file too
17:13:27 <elliott> ais523: You have to ask me what {.ar}^∞ is now.
17:13:33 <ais523> elliott: nope, I guessed
17:13:35 <Gregor> I know it stores the original filename, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't store the permissions.
17:13:39 <ais523> recursively convert directories to .ar files
17:13:40 <Sgeo> Well, that's useful for .gz.tar
17:13:56 <elliott> ais523: Yep! Also, you store a directory list as the file... I'm not sure yet. Either "/" or "[NUL byte]".
17:13:58 <Gregor> By default, gzip keeps the original file name and timestamp in the compressed file. These are used when decompressing the file with the -N option. This is useful when
17:13:58 <Gregor> the compressed file name was truncated or when the time stamp was not preserved after a file transfer.
17:14:11 <ais523> it's not quite a 1-1 conversion, though, because there might be .ar files there already
17:14:14 <elliott> ais523: These aren't valid paths, so you process it before continuing. (Note: ar(1) fails on this, but eh, you can process it yourself; the format is simple enough.)
17:14:17 <elliott> ais523: <elliott> ais523: Yep! Also, you store a directory list as the file... I'm not sure yet. Either "/" or "[NUL byte]".
17:14:30 <elliott> That is, in every directory, the file "/" in the archive has a list of the directory names, separated by NUL.
17:14:38 <elliott> So you only decompress foo.ar if ar is in that file.
17:14:51 <ais523> you need to store permissions and file types too, don't you?
17:15:05 <ais523> as in, whether the file's regular/socket/symlink, etc
17:15:12 <elliott> ais523: Eh, who cares about either of those.
17:15:22 <elliott> It's for real men, who don't use such silly things.
17:15:29 <ais523> otherwise you couldn't distinguish between a text file saying "/etc/passwd", and a symlink to /etc/passwd
17:15:50 <elliott> ais523: Symlinks not supported!
17:16:12 * Sgeo suddenly wonders about the physical structure of symlinks
17:16:14 <Gregor> Symlinks are for the weak. Real men use HARDlinks. ... which also aren't usefully supported.
17:16:34 <ais523> Gregor: they aren't usefully supported by anything other than some of the insane modes of rsync, IIRC
17:16:38 <elliott> ais523: FINE. / can be more complicated.
17:16:52 <Gregor> ais523: rsync -H FTW HOORAY
17:16:54 <ais523> because finding the other end of a hardlink requires brute-forcing with most file systems
17:17:22 <Sgeo> What does it mean to support a hardlink?
17:17:40 <elliott> ais523: Firstly, a NUL-separated list of "filename[NUL]X", where X is "s" for socket, and "y" for symlink. Then, a NUL. Then, a NUL-separated list of directory names.
17:17:47 <Sgeo> Isn't a hardlink essentially just another name for the same file? So if you include it in an archive, you're just including the file
17:17:48 <ais523> Sgeo: it means that if you hardlink two files, archive, unarchive elsewhere, the two files will also be hardlinked in the new version
17:18:09 <ais523> elliott: well, directories aren't a regular file either, so you can merge the two parts of that
17:18:16 <ais523> as in filename[NUL]d for a directory
17:18:38 <elliott> ais523: I love how ar is plain text.
17:18:45 <ais523> I think the man page for ls has a list of the various other things you can put there
17:18:59 <elliott> ais523: hmm, yeah, what does ls show sockets and symlinks as?
17:19:04 <ais523> character and block special devices should probably be supported
17:19:07 <elliott> I should just copy those indicators.
17:21:23 <ais523> The file type indicators are `/' for directories, `@' for symbolic links, `|' for FIFOs, `=' for sockets, `>' for doors, and nothing for regular files.
17:21:44 <ais523> that's the indicators used by ls -F, which has a very old-fashioned look to it
17:21:59 <ais523> ls -l uses a completely different style of indicators, which I can't find documented in either man ls or info ls
17:22:12 <ais523> also, I don't know what a door is in that context
17:23:09 <Sgeo> Taking the fact that it's within a certain context out of context
17:24:58 <ais523> hmm, do I care enough to attempt to understand rot13d German?
17:26:00 <Sgeo> Fvr unora jnuefpurvayvpu avpug traht Fbetsnyg nhs qvrfr orefrgmra...
17:27:10 <ais523> wow, I guessed the last word was "übersetzen" just from the first letter and context
17:27:16 <ais523> translated the rot13 mentally, and I was right
17:27:48 <elliott> ais523: also, rot13'd German? How the heck does it handle umlauts?
17:27:57 <ais523> it leaves them unchanged
17:28:20 <elliott> ais523: so, umlaut on the replaced character?
17:28:48 <ais523> mostly because ä would transform to n-umlaut, which doesn't exist
17:30:30 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:30:54 <ais523> wow, I submitted a Slashdot story 5 days ago, still hasn't been accepted or rejeted
17:31:43 <ais523> interestingly, it went all the way up to yellow, was removed from public view with a copy placed into the queue at the original time it was submitted, and the copy went up to green, so the few people who actually care about Firehose voting presumably liked it
17:38:20 <fizzie> With combining umlauts, x-umlaut exists for any x; that's no reason not to do the swappery.
17:38:49 <ais523> <LWATCDR> I let the users pick their own passwords and user names but I warned them with this text. "Your username and password are case sensitive." Then one day someone wanted me to change their user name and password for them. They set them them to... Case and Sensitive!
17:38:52 <fizzie> Finnish official alphabet has an odd number of characters, which makes self-decrypting ROT-n a no-go. :/
17:39:26 <ais523> you could just leave one alone
17:39:47 <fizzie> Anyway, the gzip file format has support for multi-part things, you could have a multi-file .gz. No-one does, though.
17:39:53 <fizzie> ("A gzip file consists of a series of "members" (compressed data sets). The format of each member is specified in the following section. The members simply appear one after another in the file, with no additional information before, between, or after them.")
17:40:15 <fizzie> (And each "member" has its own original-filename fields and so on.)
17:40:33 <ais523> hmm, you could use that as a sidechannel to steganograph data into in a normal .gz, couldn't you?
17:41:04 <ais523> (when I came back to Wikipedia after over a year, I noticed that one of the CSD changes was to allow instant deletion of images with data steganographically hidden in them)
17:41:20 <fizzie> Well, yes, I guess; but it's not a very clever side-channel, it's a bit painfully obvious. I'm sure some tools will complain about "junk", too.
17:42:05 <ais523> painfully obvious side-channels can be the best ones, sometimes
17:42:27 <ais523> I think someone made a polyglot between an image format and a compression format by exploiting the fact that one ignored junk at the end, and the other ignored junk at the start
17:43:53 <fizzie> 'gunzip' seems to just concatenate the uncompressed data together, so it's not a very hidingy with that tool either.
17:44:21 <fizzie> Oh, I guess the manual goes and even says that explicitly.
17:44:53 <elliott> fizzie: You may be disappointed to know that I have learned how to craft.
17:44:58 <fizzie> "Multiple compressed files can be concatenated. In this case, gunzip will extract all members at once. For example: gzip -c file1 > foo.gz; gzip -c file2 >> foo.gz .. Then gunzip -c foo is equivalent to cat file1 file2 .."
17:45:19 <ais523> fizzie: well, you could hide data more subtly by splitting a file into lots of pieces, and having the splitpoints encode the data
17:45:46 <fizzie> That you could do, though I think you could do the same within a single-member gzip file by manipulating the chunk boundaries.
17:45:59 <fizzie> Or block boundaries, I think the spec uses that word.
17:47:56 <fizzie> 7z does a bit sillily: http://p.zem.fi/7z-multimember (for context, test.gz was made by gzipping tmp1.txt and tmp2.txt, both of which had one line)
17:48:47 <fizzie> So that you don't need to follow a link: with the "list" option, it shows info (size/name) for the first member; when uncompressing, it uses the name of the first file but writes contents of both files there.
17:49:19 <ais523> so the file it creates is larger than the size it reports it will create?
17:49:47 <elliott> "hi", then a billion terabytes of "0"
17:50:40 <fizzie> "gzip -l" does the same: it reports the size of the latter file, but decompresses into a bigger file. Not that I think anyone does "gzip -l" ever.
17:51:58 <ais523> anyone here who uses Windows: does it use .rar as the default for compressed (zipped) folders nowadays?
17:52:10 <ais523> whenever I ask someone to compress files for me, they send me .rars for no obvious reason
17:52:13 <elliott> ais523: It doesn't even support .rar.
17:52:20 <elliott> ais523: .rar is just the ubiquitous Windows compression format.
17:52:23 <ais523> I wonder why they're so popular, then
17:52:30 <elliott> ais523: .zip is the Old Rubbish, .7z is the Obscure Stuff.
17:52:33 <ais523> I assumed .zip was the ubiquitous Windows compression format
17:52:48 <elliott> ais523: Torrents are always in .rars, for instance, when they're in some kind of archive.
17:53:02 <elliott> I think the reason is: (1) Piracy, (2) Software and stuff.
17:53:39 <Gregor> Often they're in .rars even when that's totally retarded.
17:53:59 <fizzie> Sometimes there's .rars within .rars within .rars.
17:54:28 <ais523> hmm, context for my earlier random quote off Slashdot: someone hacked the UK navy's website via SQL injection
17:54:41 <fizzie> Or multi-file split .rars that extricate into a big single-file .rar.
17:54:48 <ais523> <MalHavoc> I'm not sure what is worse. The fact that they fell victim to an SQL injection attack, or the HTML source that is displayed on TFA is badly broken. A "centre" tag? And the closing HTML tag is broken. Someone put up that maintenance page in a mega hurry.
17:54:54 <ais523> I love the concept of a <centre> tag
17:55:04 <ais523> it's wrong on so many levels, well at least two
17:55:30 <Gregor> <centre> centers things only in commonwealth countries.
17:55:50 <elliott> <fizzie> Or multi-file split .rars that extricate into a big single-file .rar.
17:56:13 <fizzie> Well, sometimes it has an .arj. (Okay, so not any more, but still.)
17:56:34 <fizzie> Back when there were floppies, there used to be floppy-splitted .arj archives around.
17:56:57 <fizzie> (Since .zip didn't split.)
17:57:08 -!- dbc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:57:19 <fizzie> Or, as Wikipedia says: "Generally ARJ was less popular than PKZIP, but it did enjoy a niche market during the BBS era and in the warez scene. This was largely due to ARJ's creation and handling of multi-volume archives (archives which are split into smaller files which are then suitable for dial-up transfers and floppy distribution) being more robust than PKZIP's."
17:57:27 <fizzie> They sound oh-so-sophisticated.
17:57:43 <fizzie> I wonder why that bit doesn't have a [citation needed] tag.
17:57:56 <fizzie> Smells like original research to me!
17:58:22 <ais523> fizzie: you know, you can add one if you like?
17:58:33 <ais523> the tags don't add themselves
17:58:52 <fizzie> I don't really like them, I was just expecting one.
17:58:53 <ais523> (although Wikipedia would likely be greatly improved by a bot that went around adding [citation needed] to things at random)
18:12:42 <elliott> EsoCPU in Minecraft: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=69299
18:12:48 <elliott> Not that esoteric, I guess, but hey, 8 bytes of RAM.
18:13:14 <ais523> hmm, Oracle are apparently planning to create a paid JVM in addition to the free one
18:13:55 <ais523> people are wondering what extra features it will have; my personal guess is that it'll just be bundled with a support contract and some vague enterprisey nonsense ("uptime optimised", etc) and otherwise be identical to the free one
18:14:17 <ais523> on the basis that companies tend to pick the most expensive option, and /especially/ companies that are used to Oracle products
18:14:22 <elliott> No, wait! "I'm doubling the memory of my CPU to 16 bytes"
18:14:40 <ais523> with sufficient ROM, 16 bytes is actually quite a lto
18:14:53 <ais523> I think I've written simple games in 16 bytes of RAM before
18:14:59 <elliott> ais523: I was about to say "it might get technical updates like GC overhauls faster than the free version", but then realised that Oracle are hardly going to improve the GC.
18:15:07 <elliott> (Especially as it's already the single best GC ever.)
18:15:27 <ais523> because it would impact their hardware sales?
18:15:41 <elliott> ais523: no, just because Oracle are incompetent
18:15:59 <ais523> hmm, what leads you to that conclusion?
18:16:28 <ais523> admittedly, PL/SQL is evidence in favour, but I thought they had a reputation for working very well, just requring tens of Oracle consultants all the time and being massively overpriced
18:16:37 <elliott> ais523: Specifically the DB, but also EVERY OTHER THING EVER.
18:16:46 <ais523> hmm, I suspect I'm mentally considering the consultants to be part of the program, IRP-style
18:16:55 <ais523> in which case it works better than any other DB as it's actually intelligent
18:16:59 <elliott> ais523: Well, the DB is supposed to be (a) not all that performant compared to Postgres and the like, and (b) the STUPIDEST PROGRAM EVER.
18:18:00 <ais523> I'm sure there are other candidates for the title of STUPIDEST PROGRAM EVER
18:23:22 <elliott> Gregor: Wrong! secho is BRILLIANT.
18:23:27 <ais523> no, PSOX is far from the most stupid program ever
18:23:31 <ais523> it's misguided, but not stupid
18:40:43 <Gregor> ARGH. How is it that people can speak English perfectly and yet are incapable of writing a cogent sentence X_X
18:41:14 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not sure I'd describe either of those as "stupid" either
18:41:17 <elliott> <Gregor> ARGH. How is it that people can speak English perfectly and yet are incapable of writing a cogent sentence X_X
18:41:17 <elliott> <Gregor> ^^^ Case in point.
18:41:24 <elliott> Gregor: don't be so hard on yourself.
18:41:38 <ais523> elliott: why are the < and > surrounded by tabs?
18:41:44 <ais523> as in tab < tab Gregor tab > tab
18:41:49 <elliott> ais523: because xchat copies the blueness of Gregor as mirc colours because it's stupid
18:41:56 <elliott> there's also [000F] after the last tab
18:42:23 <Gregor> No, tab does not mean blue :P
18:42:44 <fizzie> I haven't had xchat copy any strange tabs in.
18:43:24 <elliott> It only happens sometimes.
18:43:27 <elliott> For god knows what reason.
18:43:59 <fizzie> <fizzie> Weirdiey. ← this was some pasta. It is a bit weird in that it adds the <>s in, they're not in the "timestamp nick|line" sort of format it shows in the screen.
18:59:09 <Gregor> "LOral USA Fellowships For Women"
18:59:32 <Gregor> When I think "respectable scientist", I then immediately think "L'Oral"
18:59:48 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I2KnFx-kb4
18:59:58 <Gregor> elliott: Very at work.
19:00:18 <Gregor> elliott: Very your MOM.
19:00:31 <ais523> hey, no insult chains in two channels at once
19:00:57 -!- kar8nga has joined.
19:06:35 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:12:39 <elliott> Go match: John Trump (yes, the binary lambda calculus) vs. COMPUTER
19:13:14 <elliott> "In early 2006 MCTS (Monte Carlo Tree Search [7]) started being used to make strong 9x9 programs. The idea was crazy - have the computer play out random games, play out a lot of them, and choose the move leading to the position where randomness wins more. I would still say it is crazy, except for the inescapable fact that it works."
19:22:34 <fizzie> The description sounds a bit simplificationary: I don't think they usually play the simulated games completely randomly.
19:25:14 <fizzie> I'm not sure it sounds crazy when elaborated. "For each move, we sample out different alternative futures of how the game could go from there, and choose the move which leads to victory more often" vs. "DURR make random moves DURR".
19:25:47 <elliott> fizzie: SIMPLIFICATIONS ARE EVIL
19:27:07 <ais523> elliott: it's basically a normal alpha-beta search, except pruning at random
19:27:21 <ais523> which I suppose is one way to look to a large depth quickly
19:27:55 <fizzie> ais523: Welll... usually they do play one game to the very end, which means no guesswork with position-evaluation heuristics.
19:29:46 <ais523> yep, it's an intriguing idae
19:30:00 <ais523> unlike most computers, it seems like it's really good at strategy yet bad at tactics
19:30:06 <fizzie> I think there's been at least one monte-carloish contestant in that AI competition I harp about year after year. I really should tag up some meta about the participants so I could look for these things, now I just have piles of messy .pdf results.
19:30:26 <ais523> hmm, we need an equivalent of indent(1) for PDFs
19:32:21 <fizzie> "for p in *.pdf; do pdftotext $p -; done | grep -i monte" reveals just two reports (in 2010) who mention Monte Carlo approach in the discussion part as an alternative.
19:34:05 <oklopol> it's impossible to make infinite memory with minecraft physics?
19:34:26 <oklopol> that is, is there a block factory
19:34:47 <ais523> you wouldn't necessarily need a factory if you could do something analog with water levels, or something like that
19:35:12 <oklopol> well all you need is a stack or line of blocks you can grow infinitely
19:35:23 <ais523> I was trying to work out if Enigma was TC without Lua scripting; I concluded that it wasn't, but only because there was no way to keep a supply of coins handy to feed coinslots
19:35:49 <ais523> (you'd use the remaining duration of the coinslots as a bignum for a Minsky machine, thus getting round the limited storage space of the level)
19:35:59 <fizzie> Only people can create blocks. And the water/lava spread is... wonky, I doubt it's very workable. Some blocks are destroyed by fire/lava, though.
19:36:20 <oklopol> i was just watching this vid and water doesn't really seem to work
19:36:31 <oklopol> actually in any of the vids
19:36:31 <elliott> "> I hope this will Go well for the computer.
19:36:31 <elliott> I personally hope not. There ought to be a few things that humans do that computers can not do.
19:36:31 <elliott> I felt pretty bad when Kasparov lost to the IBM computer."
19:36:38 <fizzie> It's different in different versions, and really pretty wonky in the latest too.
19:36:39 <ais523> obviously it's TC if you allow arbitrary Lua scripting (notwithstanding the risk of the computer running out of memory)
19:36:59 <ais523> elliott: I still feel sorry for the game designers
19:37:13 <elliott> ais523: BUT DUDE ARIMAA IS LIKE SO UN COMPUTERABLEEEE
19:37:17 <ais523> I wonder if computers will ever beat humans at Arimaa (a chess-like game designed specifically to be hard for AIs to play)?
19:37:19 <elliott> That's why we PATENTED it.
19:37:27 <elliott> ais523: Protip: Arimaa is 99.999999999999999999% marketing.
19:37:32 <elliott> ais523: And stupid copyright policies.
19:37:43 <elliott> ais523: (You can't make a program to play Arimaa, I think. Or was it that you can't sell one?)
19:37:46 <elliott> fizzie knows the gory details.
19:37:58 <ais523> but if you can memorise something, like the rules of Arimaa, it should probably be uncopyrightable
19:38:01 <ais523> (note: opinion, not law)
19:38:58 <fizzie> It was very strange. I think the designer has had some "oh I want to let SCIENCE use this thing" notions when writing the license, but had no clue how to actually do that.
19:38:58 <elliott> ais523: Most things should be uncopyrightable. :)
19:39:16 <ais523> fizzie: screwed-up custom license?
19:39:21 <elliott> <ais523> but if you can memorise something, like the rules of Arimaa, it should probably be uncopyrightable
19:39:35 <elliott> ais523: I like the idea of making a board game's rules so complex that you can't memorise them, just so it can be copyrighted.
19:39:47 <ais523> hmm, I remember the row about the JSON license
19:39:51 <elliott> Like a thousand special cases for one scenario that almost never happens, and it's almost always one of three outcomes.
19:39:58 <ais523> it's MIT with an extra condition: "please use this software for good, not evil"
19:40:04 <fizzie> "Educational, research or personal use or distribution: For this category there is basically no restrictions on the use or distribution of Arimaa related products or services." And then in the list of examples what you can do:
19:40:10 <elliott> ais523: IBM got a license saying they could use the software for Evil, too. :-)
19:40:17 <ais523> elliott: really? that's hilarious
19:40:20 <elliott> Which is great (although I agree that the license is stupid and IBM did the right thing).
19:40:22 <Gregor> Wow, I just looked for "1835 (board game)" on Wikipedia and got "Blood-vomiting game"
19:40:25 <Gregor> Oh, those silly Japanese.
19:40:25 <fizzie> "Development of Arimaa related software for educational, research or personal use. However you may not hire, contract or commision someone else to develop the software; may not sell the software or release the software publicly in any form (source code or executable)."
19:40:34 <elliott> ais523: Well, technically they got it under the MIT license, I think.
19:40:36 <fizzie> I don't really see how that's "basically no restrictions".
19:40:48 <elliott> ais523: But it's more amusing saying that they got a license that permitted them to use it for Evil, too.
19:41:10 <Gregor> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/18XX_games <-- board game with rules so complicated you can't memoriZe them.
19:41:17 <fizzie> But there really aren't any real conditions: it's just "basically no restrictions" and a very non-exhaustive list of things you might do, and then that inscrutable "wahh if you make software you can't give it to anyone" thing.
19:41:28 <elliott> Gregor: What @ that naming scheme. Bizarre.
19:41:34 <fizzie> Actually, it sort of makes me think if it's been added there to make it slower for computer programs to get better at the game.
19:41:49 <Gregor> elliott: The original games were all named after some year in the 19th century :P
19:42:05 <elliott> fizzie: "Arimaa has so far proven to be more difficult for artificial intelligences to play than chess." -- Wikipedia; I think what it means to say is "nobody competent enough has bothered to".
19:42:13 <fizzie> According to Wikipedia, for Arimaa's latest yearly challenge: "In 2010, Mattias Hultgren's bot Marwin edged out Clueless in the computer championship. In the Challenge match Marwin became the first bot to win two out of three games against a single human defender, and also the first bot to win three of the nine games overall."
19:42:20 <elliott> The Arimaa pieces are hard to distinguish for me.
19:42:26 <fizzie> Of course the human players aren't probably exactly as serious about it as Chess/Go players.
19:42:44 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arimaa#Computer_performance tl;dr Brute forcing is hard! ZOMG!
19:42:58 <ais523> ideally, it should just use numbers
19:43:12 <ais523> trying to remember elephant > camel > horse > dog > cat > rabbit is the hardest part of the game
19:43:41 <Gregor> ais523: Really? "Bigger-than" over mammals is too hard for you?
19:43:46 <oklopol> "Top chess programs use brute-force searching"
19:43:52 <fizzie> The computer pessimizations have been made pretty much with existing chess-playing techniques in mind.
19:44:11 <ais523> Gregor: cats are larger than rabbits?
19:44:11 <elliott> Gregor: It's irritating...
19:44:15 <fizzie> oklopol: For smart enough values of brute.
19:44:20 <ais523> admittedly, I don't see rabbits very often
19:44:31 <elliott> ais523: I say this as someone who owns both a small and a big rabbit :P
19:44:41 <elliott> (And has, in fact, seen and owned cats in my time.)
19:44:51 <elliott> ais523: Wild rabbits, still smaller.
19:44:55 <ais523> elliott: you strike me as sorr of the person who /would/ own multiple sizes of rabbit just to be able to compare them
19:45:02 <Gregor> ais523: I think I can say with certainty that though cats and rabbits share a size range, cats are on average larger.
19:45:05 <elliott> ais523: That is now officially my reason.
19:45:11 <Gregor> ais523: Same is true of cats and dogs, so that's not much of an argument :P
19:45:53 <ais523> *as the sort of person
19:46:10 <fizzie> "Domestic cats are similar in size to the other members of the genus Felis, typically weighing between 4 kilograms (8 lb 13 oz) and 5 kilograms (11 lb 0 oz). -- The smallest adult cat ever officially recorded weighed around 1.36 kilograms (3 lb)." -- "[Rabbits'] size can range anywhere from 20 cm (8 in) in length and 0.4 kg in weight to 50 cm (20 in) and more than 2 kg."
19:46:14 <fizzie> Not very much of overlap there.
19:46:17 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, but (|rabbits > cats|/(|rabbits|*|cats)) > (|cats > dogs|/(|cats|*|dogs|)).
19:46:26 <elliott> Gregor: Er, without the *|cats|.
19:46:58 <elliott> Gregor: x = percentage of rabbits that are bigger than the average-sized cat. y = percentage of cats that are bigger than the average-sized dog.
19:47:05 <ais523> elliott: is that an attempt at a famous equality?
19:47:16 <elliott> ais523: Nope. What does it look like to you?
19:47:17 <ais523> my youth is scarred from having to memorise the things
19:47:23 <ais523> and it looks vaguely like one of them
19:47:45 <ais523> famous inequalities all look much the same
19:50:41 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/cats-vs-rabbits
19:50:57 <fizzie> Whoops, I got the < upside down!
19:51:15 <ais523> isn't an upside-down < a <?
19:51:25 <fizzie> Yes, I meant... uh, leftside-right.
19:52:23 <fizzie> No, I want it in the fooside-bar form.
19:53:10 <ais523> "fooside bar" would be a great name for a pub
19:53:33 <elliott> fizzie: That isn't what I said at all!.
19:53:50 <fizzie> elliott: I wasn't trying to be.
19:53:56 <fizzie> "Showing results for "offside bar". Search instead for "fooside bar"." Aw.
19:54:29 <elliott> I said |{x : x in rabbits, size(x) > (sum x in cats : size(x)) / |cats|}| > |{x : x in cats, size(x) > (sum x in dogs : size(x)) / |dogs|}|.
19:54:32 <ais523> off/foo is an interesting typo suggestion
19:55:23 <ais523> also, I love IRC for its ability to explode an offhand comment into a full scientific investigation
19:56:20 <fizzie> elliott: I didn't even bother reading it; I wasn't yet in the whole rabbits-vs.-cats vs. cats-vs.-dogs mess.
19:57:02 <elliott> Wolfram Alpha does not have the average cat size in it.
19:57:08 <elliott> Assuming "size" is referring to species data extras | Use as referring to administrative divisions instead
19:57:29 <elliott> Assuming length | Use height or [more | v] instead. More = maximum recorded trunk diameter, or weight.
19:57:37 <elliott> Maximum recorded trunk diameter of a cat: 0!
19:57:42 <elliott> (Note: Last line my own speculation.)
19:57:59 <ais523> what does it say the maximum size cat is, then, if the average size cat isn't listed?
19:58:16 <fizzie> elliott: Note that it does have photoreceptors/square millimeter stats for cats.
19:58:31 <fizzie> And olfactory epithelium surface area.
19:58:56 <elliott> ais523: (data not available)
19:59:10 <ais523> OK, so we know how dense the photoreceptors are on cats, but not how large they are?
19:59:20 <ais523> alpha reminds me of mathematica, awesome but only for things they thought of
19:59:36 <elliott> ais523: It's actually useful for basic algebra/calculus data-munging.
19:59:42 <elliott> In that you don't have to start up Mathematica.
20:00:08 <fizzie> Also if I write ungrammatically "volume of cat", it goes "Input interpretation: Caterpillar | volume" and the result is "2.981 million shares".
20:00:12 <ais523> I'm trying to remember which term in the ToS I disagreed with
20:00:17 <ais523> perhaps the one that claims it's a contract
20:00:19 <elliott> ais523: age limit? no bots?
20:00:42 <ais523> oh, the age limit is ridiculous, also self-defeating
20:01:09 <ais523> because if you think about it, they're claiming in the contract a) the ToS are a contract, b) minors aren't allowed to use the site because they can't agree to contracts
20:01:12 <elliott> I'm being corrupted by the evil pornographic Wolfram Alpha data.
20:01:26 <ais523> b) is obviously not enforced on minors, due to being in a contract they can't legally agree to
20:01:39 <elliott> are you sure that's the argument for (b)?
20:01:42 <elliott> rather than just "NO UNDER 18S K"
20:01:50 <ais523> elliott: not sure, it's a memory
20:01:59 <ais523> and the sort of thing I might plausibly misremember
20:02:14 <ais523> you can check if you like, IIRC (b) was spelled out in the ToS itself
20:02:33 <elliott> [on The Art of Unix Programming] "Yeah, there's a reason nobody likes that crap. A book on unix programming by a man who knows neither unix nor programming leaves a lot to be desired."
20:02:57 <ais523> elliott: I read the UNIX-HATERS HANDBOOK btw (as it's UNIX, I assume it's case-sensitive)
20:03:02 <ais523> I wasn't particularly impressed with it
20:03:28 <ais523> partly, beause it's dated in that many of the things that it claimed were outdated actually are outdated, as in not even used in UNIX any more
20:06:00 <elliott> ais523: many of the complaints are still true, though
20:06:03 <elliott> as well as the general complaints
20:08:28 <elliott> ais523: the email in the preface is the best, though, I think
20:08:35 <elliott> "This is the fifth day I’ve used a Sun. Coincidentally, it’s also the fifth
20:08:35 <elliott> time my Emacs has given up the ghost. So I think I’m getting a feel
20:08:35 <elliott> for what’s good about Suns."
20:08:54 <elliott> ("Another nice thing about Suns is their simplicity. You know how a
20:08:54 <elliott> LispM is always jumping into that awful, hairy debugger with the
20:08:54 <elliott> confusing backtrace display, and expecting you to tell it how to pro-
20:08:54 <elliott> ceed? Well, Suns ALWAYS know how to proceed. They dump a
20:08:54 <elliott> core file and kill the offending process. What could be easier? If
20:08:54 <elliott> there’s a window involved, it closes right up. (Did I feel a draft?)
20:08:57 <elliott> This simplicity greatly decreases debugging time because you imme-
20:08:59 <elliott> diately give up all hope of finding the problem, and just restart from
20:09:01 <elliott> the beginning whatever complex task you were up to. In fact, at this
20:09:03 <elliott> point, you can just boot. Go ahead, it’s fast!")
20:09:05 <elliott> ^ possibly my favourite paragraph
20:09:56 <ais523> elliott: with the typical quality of today's programs, effectively running them all under a debugger all the time would make your life unusable with really-continue commands
20:10:14 <elliott> ais523: well, it worked on the lisp machine because it had hardware support
20:10:17 <elliott> and also people weren't idiots
20:10:26 <elliott> why is weren't not a word according to my spell checker?
20:10:39 <elliott> ais523: anyway, a lot of the reasons today's programs suck ARE Unix and Windows
20:10:42 <elliott> so that's a bit of a circular counter-argument
20:11:57 <elliott> ais523: I really need to just buy a Lisp Machine some day. Shipping from Virginia can only be hilariously cheap, right? Sigh.
20:16:15 <elliott> -r-- 1 1005728 Jan 7 2007 bzip2-1.0.4.cpio.bz2
20:16:22 <elliott> ais523: is it physically possible to not smile at filenames like that?
20:16:51 <ais523> I assume there are people who wouldn't
20:16:54 <olsner> <elliott> 12:36:40 <olsner> probably my own API, posix is overrated | <elliott> kinder words than I'd choose
20:17:03 <ais523> also, "-r--", is this a single-user system?
20:17:24 <elliott> ais523: presumably, it lists whatever permissions apply to the user it's looking at them as
20:17:27 <elliott> nobody or www-data or whatever
20:18:44 <olsner> you may hate posix, but I just think it's an API and as all API:s it sucks more or less :)
20:19:24 <elliott> olsner: it's more a system specification
20:21:14 <olsner> yeah, definitely more than an API ... s/API/whatever it is/g or something
20:22:20 <elliott> Anyone want to donate $675 or a fraction thereof for a shell account on a Lisp Machine? :-)
20:22:38 <elliott> Bet I can afford international postage of an object weighing about 400 pounds if I just get the actual cost out of the way!
20:23:52 <ais523> how heavy can a shell account be?
20:24:13 <elliott> ais523: I'm going to assume that misinterpretation was deliberate. :P
20:24:36 <elliott> (The object is the Lisp Machine; DKS says the 36xx machines weigh "up to 400 pounds", but then factor in the monitor, keyboard, etc.)
20:24:54 <elliott> Of course the newer machines are likely to be cheaper -- and quieter! -- but also more expensive. Perhaps the postage would balance it out.
20:25:15 <ais523> elliott: oh, I've only just worked out your intended interpretation
20:25:23 <elliott> Well, actually, all the >36xx machines are either MacIvories or the WTFEXPENSIVE $3,500 XL1200/XL1201 and apparently for that one "shipping can be expensive".
20:25:36 <elliott> 400 pounds is the maximum weight.
20:25:39 <elliott> The smallest of these machines is the 3620, which is
20:25:39 <elliott> a deskside machine (9 x 18 x 25) that runs off standard 120V power and
20:25:39 <elliott> weighs about 70 pounds, not including the monitor
20:25:56 <elliott> cofiguration is 4 MWords with a 760 MB of ESDI disk and a 17" monochrome
20:25:56 <elliott> console with keyboard and 3-button mouse. You can add another 760 MB disk
20:26:07 <elliott> [[You can add additional memory for $50 per MWord up
20:26:07 <elliott> to a total of 8 MWords. You can upgrade to the 19" premium monochrome
20:26:08 <elliott> monitor for an additional $300.]]
20:26:29 <ais523> why would a 760 MB disk cost $150 nowadays?
20:26:40 <elliott> ais523: ESDI, SMD or ST506 disks.
20:26:45 <ais523> the hard disk doesn't depend on the CPU architecture, surely?
20:26:48 <elliott> ais523: also, I think they're original Symbolics disks.
20:26:55 <elliott> ais523: but: <elliott> ais523: ESDI, SMD or ST506 disks.
20:27:15 <ais523> hmm, is this a company who's come across a load of unused original Lisp machines, and is hanging onto them in the hope that someone will buy them?
20:27:21 <elliott> ais523: this *is* the Lisp Machine company
20:27:32 <elliott> and sells its copious stock of Lisp Machines
20:27:34 <ais523> ah, are they still making them, or just selling their extra stock?
20:27:43 <elliott> ais523: http://symbolics-dks.com/
20:27:55 <elliott> ais523: (he sold symbolics.com to a squatter -- SHAME on him! (oldest .com))
20:28:18 <elliott> ais523: well, more than one guy -- [[Send bug reports to Kalman Reti at reti@symbolics-dks.com]]
20:28:24 <elliott> ais523: so they still have a Macsyma developer, it seems
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20:28:44 <ais523> elliott: you'd sort-of expect verisign.com to be the oldest, although maybe they got hold of .com after it was created rather than owning it forever
20:29:00 <elliott> ais523: verisign didn't own .com from the start
20:29:11 <elliott> ais523: here is the list and spec of lisp machines still sold, plus prices, FWIW: http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt
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20:29:42 <elliott> [[This would only be a viable
20:29:42 <elliott> option, if you live close enough to Washington, DC to pickup the machine.]]
20:30:08 <elliott> ok, conclusion: only viable option is 3620, which can pack 1.5 gigs of disk, but "barely makes for a useable environment once you load all the software and documentation files"
20:30:28 <ais523> you could always just move the documentation to a different system
20:30:41 <ais523> unless it's needed for the debugger to work
20:30:50 <elliott> ais523: no, you want it (it's hyperlinked and integrated)
20:30:56 <elliott> i.e. click a function in Emacs (yes, it had emacs), see the documentation
20:31:06 <elliott> ais523: it's a large part of the appeal of these systems -- the integration
20:31:10 <ais523> how could it not have Emacs?
20:31:17 <elliott> ais523: no, but it's not GNU Emacs
20:31:22 <elliott> ais523: it's *real* emacs :-)
20:31:22 <ais523> (I'm assuming it wouldn't be GNU Emacs, but a different dialect)
20:31:43 <elliott> Okay, decked-out 3620 with 8 MWords of memory and 1.5 gigs of storage, that's... $1025.
20:32:05 <elliott> Not bad, especially if you ditch some of the RAM.
20:32:33 <elliott> hmm, 8 MB = 1.3 MWord, apparently
20:34:00 <elliott> ais523: the real problem would be shipping 70 pounds + keyboard + monitor + CRT monitor internatioanlly!
20:34:07 <elliott> ais523: that's got to be hundreds of pounds
20:34:56 <elliott> I love how the LoseThos developer linked the last line of his Loper OS blog comment, "I’m funded from social security disability for being insane.", to the LoseThos site.
20:35:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Are they willing to pay ridiculous shipping prices? Besides, I think the actual machines are in Washington DC.
20:35:40 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, I'm assuming you'll give me tonnes of money to pay them off.
20:35:50 <ais523> elliott: just ask for it to be delivered to the US Embassy and pick it up from there; that way, it technically isn't international
20:35:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Or I could just give DKS tons of money for the same effect.
20:35:59 <elliott> ais523: please tell me that works
20:36:07 <ais523> I doubt it, but it's a hilarious concept
20:37:19 <elliott> ha, Stanislav just bought one of the Tru64 UNIX-based machines and used Open Genera on it
20:37:37 <elliott> [[My place of business recently purchased a copy of Open Genera from David Schmidt of Symbolics Inc. (http://www.symbolics-dks.com/) and he included this machine as a no-cost extra.]]
20:38:25 <elliott> http://www.loper-os.org/wp-content/bolix1.png ;; whereas this looks like an actual lisp machine to me, although i'm not sure...
20:39:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume Stanislav is still bowing before his Lisp machine overlords before going to sleep every night?
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20:46:09 <elliott> Ergo, God is in his heaven.
20:48:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
20:48:33 <elliott> " as the laws progress they quickly devolve into a delusional hacker wonderland ... A debugger opening on a program error? ... really? I can't think of anything much more use-hostile."
20:52:14 <elliott> olsner: it seems unfortunately likely at this point that Kitten will be linux-based
20:52:39 <olsner> don't be like the others :(
20:52:47 <elliott> olsner: I don't want to be! But have you *seen* NetBSD?
20:52:56 <elliott> olsner: Especially its hardware support. I do not think it will speak to my network card.
20:53:20 <olsner> they use *CVS*, I'm not sure it will even speak with this century
20:54:07 <Gregor> elliott: Can you at least make it a true No-GNU Linux?
20:54:28 <elliott> Gregor: That is the idea -- well, a consequence of the idea -- although somehow I suspect you sincerely want that.
20:54:45 <elliott> Gregor: Although I will likely ship GNUmacs, at least, and -- I forget the prominent other piece of GNU-only software.
20:55:13 <Gregor> All the other Linux libcs are based on glibc.
20:55:29 <elliott> Gregor: Is not glibc-based :P
20:55:33 <elliott> Gregor: (And works just fine for desktop systems)
20:55:47 <elliott> Development on uClibc started around 1999.[3] uClibc was mostly written from scratch,[4] but has incorporated code from glibc and other projects.[5]
20:55:54 <elliott> Gregor: A few bits are from glibc, but no, it's mostly own code.
20:56:05 <olsner> oh, kitten would be BSD/Linux?
20:56:08 <elliott> Gregor: Also, I think that newlib technically works for Linux.
20:56:12 <elliott> olsner: Well. Kitten/Linux.
20:56:19 <Gregor> elliott: The Linux bits are lifted from glibc.
20:56:33 <Gregor> I think you can only call it a No-GNU Linux if there are no [L]GPL'd pieces other than the kernel itself :P
20:56:37 <elliott> olsner: But mostly cobblings of software, plus I'm not sure which set of core utilities.
20:56:59 <elliott> Gregor: Anyway, WRONG: dietlibc.
20:57:02 <Gregor> elliott: I was kidding :P
20:57:09 <Gregor> elliott: dietlibc! POYFECT
20:57:12 <elliott> Gregor: (dietlibc is GPL and thus utterly unsuitable for my purpose, as it means I could not distribute binaries, because the author is a fuckwit.)
20:57:25 <Gregor> GPL is unsuitable is unsuitable for any purpose due to that license, yes :P
20:57:38 <Gregor> No, I stand by my original statement :P
21:00:00 <elliott> Gregor: Best sentence ever :P
21:00:10 <elliott> Gregor: It's a real shame because dietlibc is *perfect* code.
21:00:20 <elliott> Gregor: But... source-based distro no.
21:02:01 <elliott> Gregor: (Although it also warns about stdio, which is fucking annoying.)
21:02:14 <elliott> Gregor: dietlibc, upon linking.
21:02:17 <elliott> stdio/printf/etc. = warning.
21:02:32 <Gregor> That's pretty lameawesome :P
21:02:42 <elliott> Gregor: Well, no true djbite would use them :-)
21:02:51 <elliott> [[Q: GPL sucks! Now I can't compile my BSD programs with the diet libc!
21:02:51 <elliott> A: Wrong. You can compile them, and you can use them. You just can't
21:02:51 <elliott> redistribute the binaries. If you are a distribution vendor and want
21:02:51 <elliott> to use the diet libc to make BSD licensed binaries for the install
21:02:51 <elliott> or rescue floppy which you sell commercially, please talk to me.]]
21:02:57 <elliott> What about the install I want to not sell freely...
21:03:39 <elliott> Gregor: If I use .xz.tar for Kitten packages, do I have to pay you royalties?
21:03:44 <Gregor> elliott: You just have to provide sources secondarily to the install media, which puts the onus of continuing that redistribution on the people who download it :P
21:03:53 <Gregor> elliott: I stole it from HP-UX, so, ... yes.
21:03:57 <elliott> Gregor: ...??? <Gregor> elliott: You just have to provide sources secondarily to the install media, which puts the onus of continuing that redistribution on the people who download it :P
21:04:15 <Gregor> elliott: The install media can just be downloadable alongside the sources.
21:04:56 <elliott> Gregor: No, you can't redistribute a BSD-licensed program linked with dietlibc.
21:05:33 <Gregor> In spite of what that Q&A says, you can, so long as you redistribute the sources too.
21:05:54 <elliott> Gregor: ...I don't see how that's true at all.
21:05:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, what awesome things is Kitten going to have?
21:06:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Simplicity. Speed. No-bullshit administration. Snarky curmudgeonness. Like being in a goddamn time machine and setting it to SANE AD.
21:06:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also: Lots and lots of breakage when I break stuff!
21:07:17 <Gregor> elliott: Dude, the GPL is not MS Shared Source. When you want to redistribute something linked to something under the GPL, that just means you have to redistribute the whole thing under the terms of the GPL; that just means including sources.
21:07:32 <elliott> Gregor: Isn't this the CLISP bullshit?
21:07:37 <elliott> Gregor: If I believe rms, I can't do that.
21:07:55 <Gregor> elliott: If you believe the GPL FAQ on gnu.org RIGHT FRIGGIN' NOW, you can.
21:08:20 <elliott> Gregor: Cool -- I'll go email fefe and tell him, so that he changes the license.
21:08:40 <Gregor> elliott: BSD is GPL-//compatible//
21:09:08 <olsner> I still don't get how you can redistribute BSD stuff under the GPL (which you must if you link it with GPL), without violating the BSD license
21:09:44 <Gregor> olsner: Because the BSD license allows you to add further restrictions.
21:10:04 <elliott> Gregor: Permission to quote you in lieu of restating what you said to fefe?
21:12:26 <olsner> but it would still mean that the result of combining BSD and GPL code is effectively GPL:d - this may not be acceptable for whatever elliott wants to build using dietlibc
21:13:53 <Gregor> Yes, that's the (only) issue.
21:16:23 <elliott> olsner: I don't see how that's an issue; distributing GPL'd binaries is pretty much irrelevant, is it not?
21:16:39 <elliott> As long as I have the source to the program -- as BSD -- and the source to dietlibc -- as GPL -- available too.
21:16:43 <elliott> <elliott> Gregor: Permission to quote you in lieu of restating what you said to fefe?
21:17:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: [[So why another fortune program? Because the BSD one sucks. It needs a separate file and a program called "strfile" to create that said file.]]
21:17:10 <olsner> well, it wouldn't be irrelevant for anyone wanting to fork kitten
21:17:39 <elliott> Gah, tar(1) is so limited.
21:17:45 <elliott> It can't run a program for each file it extracts.
21:18:18 <olsner> because they would be forced to release the source
21:18:39 <elliott> Those are already source-available.
21:19:01 <elliott> If you mean the administration utilities... they'd only have to release the source if they distributed them linked to dietlibc.
21:19:06 <elliott> So they could just use uClibc or something.
21:19:14 <elliott> Or, you know, I could just use uClibc :P
21:19:20 <olsner> they would need to release the source of anything linked to the GPL:d dietlibc, including the "BSD-licensed" parts
21:19:27 <elliott> pipe extracted files to another program
21:22:53 <fizzie> That made me wonder how it passes the file name and other stuff like that, but it seems it's actually the somewhat sensible thing: a pile of TAR_FOO envvars.
21:23:22 <elliott> fizzie: (Also, does it not save the output of the command to the filename?)
21:23:41 <elliott> --transform, --xform EXPRESSION
21:23:41 <elliott> use sed replace EXPRESSION to transform file names
21:25:01 <elliott> Gregor: Are the .gz.tars actually called that on HP-UX?
21:25:30 <elliott> I'm considering .xzt and .xtr at this point. :P
21:26:24 <fizzie> TAR_{FILENAME,REALNAME,SIZE,GID,GNAME,UID,UNAME,MODE,ATIME,CTIME,MTIME} are the ones that are probably most useful. I don't know what's the difference between REALNAME and FILENAME.
21:26:42 <elliott> Where are you getting this? Hand-written program?
21:26:49 <fizzie> I don't know of a real list, I just "tar xf foo.tar --to-command env | grep TAR_" 'd a single-file foo.tar.
21:28:10 <fizzie> Name of the file as stored in the archive.
21:28:14 <elliott> fizzie: Hmph, it seems to not bother creating a directory structure or anything if you do that.
21:28:15 <fizzie> Who knows what the difference is.
21:28:28 <fizzie> (That last one was from http://www.gnu.org/software/automake/manual/tar/Writing-to-an-External-Program.html )
21:29:19 <fizzie> You will probably (perhaps) get the directories first with TAR_FILETYPE=d, you could mkdir at those times.
21:29:35 <elliott> fizzie: "Non-regular files (directories, etc.) are ignored when this option is used."
21:29:45 <elliott> fizzie: So in fact I can't even extract empty directories like this.
21:29:53 <elliott> fizzie: I think I will just use find(1) after the fact to unxz.
21:31:15 <fizzie> Strange that there's TAR_FILETYPE at all if it just does regular files. I guess it could be for future-proofing.
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21:34:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, strange minecraft sighting: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/2010-11-08_22.31.01.png (yes this was natural...)
21:35:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, see the other screenshots in that dir too for some weird bugs and some nice scenery
21:36:05 <fizzie> Trees sometimes do some weird stuff.
21:36:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess some leaves touched the lava and then that happened
21:37:32 <fizzie> In multiplayer it quite often happens that it gets into some sort of lag w.r.t. retrieving blocks, and then you can see lava-caves. I'm not explaining this very well, but unfortunately I don't have a screenshot.
21:42:33 <Vorpal> ooh not floating islands but the largest and most improbable overhang ever
21:42:47 <Vorpal> must be several chunks alrge
21:43:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you know what the FOV is of minecraft? this might be an interesting application of hugin
21:43:46 <Vorpal> hm I think you rotate with no parallax right?
21:44:21 <Vorpal> damn there is parallax
21:44:56 <Vorpal> yes just checked very close and very far objects
21:45:10 <Vorpal> the camera is slightly in front of the rotation point I think
21:46:34 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/minecraft-hugin.jpg -- made this earlier.
21:47:22 <fizzie> The HFOV on my system is something very close to 53.8 degrees, I'd guess: v53.7996384046093, says the optimizer.
21:47:47 <fizzie> It's not quite correctly aligned, there were control points in the clouds and whatnot.
21:48:44 <fizzie> I've seen minecraft "movie"-style motion videos without the crosshairs and with programmed-like camera motions; you could probably mess around with the client to get better images.
21:48:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, you already did? hm not many close objects there.
21:49:06 <fizzie> That one was just from 16 random cropped screencaps, to see how well it goes.
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21:50:26 <fizzie> Stopping the clouds at least would help. Even if you avoid putting control points there, they do move.
21:50:58 <fizzie> (I was wondering if I should upgrade from my current OpenTTD-themed N900 panorama-background to a minecraft one.)
21:51:29 <Sgeo> http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/11/08/l-i-woman-dies-after-marrow-donors-refuse-to-show/
21:52:01 <Vorpal> wow there are caves in these almost-floating-islands
21:52:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, elliott: new screenshots in http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/
21:56:33 <fizzie> The terrain generator does make some interesting-looking scenery.
21:57:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, so it does. Also the straight edges are probably due to borders between old and new generator
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22:03:12 <elliott> <Vorpal> wow there are caves in these almost-floating-islands
22:03:24 <elliott> imagine what a mindfuck it'd be if you found out the ground you started on is actually some huge overhand
22:03:35 <elliott> of some immensely larger island on top of the actual world
22:04:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: Just for the record, current boring background: http://zem.fi/~fis/openttd-bg.png
22:06:04 <Vorpal> one waterfall lands on the top of a tree
22:06:35 <fizzie> I'd like to get snowfall back in snowy biomes, though.
22:06:42 <fizzie> Currently there's snow, but if you scoop it up, it's gone.
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22:11:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: Even when it's not doing floating islands, it doesn't always go for realism: http://zem.fi/~fis/spire.png
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22:16:32 <elliott> http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/2010-11-08_22.14.22.png
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22:16:53 <elliott> http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/2010-11-08_22.19.57.png this also
22:17:06 <elliott> Vorpal: I beg you to play in 1366x768 so I can wallpaper :P
22:17:16 <elliott> (thought: screenshots need to be Minecraft-voxel based.)
22:17:31 <Vorpal> time to upload some more
22:17:36 <elliott> Vorpal: you're mistaken; in http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/2010-11-08_22.31.01.png, those are giant torches!
22:18:02 <elliott> http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/2010-11-08_22.39.18.png This is Holland.
22:18:23 <elliott> http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/2010-11-08_22.41.35.png This isn't an overhang; it's resting on that tree!
22:18:32 <fizzie> elliott: For terrain features, you only need the seed and coordinates to regenerate them. I think there are (and/or have-been/were) some features to get the seed out and in.
22:18:56 <elliott> fizzie: Apart from all the things that have happened to it since the start... and any changes Vorpal might have made...
22:19:06 <Vorpal> I'm in the progress of uploading another bunch
22:19:16 <elliott> fizzie: Really though, I'd like a replay format for Minecraft; records the seed and all actions taken.
22:19:20 <elliott> (Including rotating the camera, I guess.)
22:19:46 <Vorpal> elliott, also as I predicted: net plus on coal
22:19:50 <fizzie> You could possibly just tcpdump-capture the multiplayer connection stuff.
22:19:55 <Sasha> feels good to be a legit owner
22:20:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, this is single player
22:20:14 <Vorpal> uploaded another bunch
22:20:24 <Vorpal> refresh index and look for different coloured links ;P
22:20:36 <elliott> http://vinhboy.com/blog/2010/03/25/how-to-get-free-comcast-internet/
22:21:12 <elliott> Sasha: I obtained it from an evil malicious legit owner because I'm horrible and kill kittens regularly. I would like to see Notch starve to death.
22:21:15 <elliott> (Note: 99% of above line false.)
22:21:25 <fizzie> Your upload-place doesn't show visited-links in my firefox, which is a bit strange and annoying. (Or maybe the browser is being snarky.)
22:21:28 <elliott> Vorpal is evil and malicious! AND I REFUSE TO STATE THE REASONS
22:21:34 <Sasha> elliott: It doesn't matter
22:21:51 <Vorpal> elliott, because I placed torches so I could track my path?
22:21:53 <Sasha> There's a little tiny feeling of satisfaction of owning my own account
22:21:59 <elliott> I have an account, too. :P
22:22:15 <Vorpal> mine is premium since yesterday
22:25:08 <elliott> Gregor: Permission plz? :P
22:26:26 <elliott> A program actually using write(2) instead of stdio. Impressive...
22:27:21 <Gregor> elliott: The .gz.tars are not called .gz.tars on HP-UX, they were just part of the crazy package system, called .pkg or something.
22:27:34 <elliott> Gregor: Permission to quote your statements about BSD/GPL to fefe? :P
22:27:52 <Gregor> elliott: Tell me A) whoTF is fefe and B) how exactly you're going to quote me first.
22:28:00 <elliott> Gregor: I told you: fefe is the dietlibc developer.
22:28:02 <elliott> I told you multiple times.
22:28:11 <Gregor> You told me after I was gone :P
22:28:13 <elliott> Gregor: Also, I'll just quote your lines that say "BSD" or "GPL" and not our argument.
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22:28:49 <olsner> elliott: plain read/write is much nicer than stdio IMO
22:29:02 <fizzie> Someone should specify some sort of "tar-based certificate private key storage" thing; they could then call those files ".key.tar"s.
22:29:04 <elliott> olsner: Agreed, but... printf, dude.
22:29:16 <elliott> I don't even need printf really, as long as I have separate functions for the printf formats, I guess.
22:29:26 <elliott> olsner: printf is the bloatiest part of stdio :P
22:29:35 <Gregor> elliott: I don't think that grep -E 'Gregor.*(GPL|BSD)' produces a cogent stream of words, I want to see the actual quote(s) you intend to use :P
22:29:41 <elliott> olsner: but yeah, i have never understood why stdio isn't just write() and read() + strlen() :P
22:29:41 <olsner> but printf could just as well be mapped to read/write and no-one would notice
22:29:41 <Vorpal> <elliott> fizzie: Really though, I'd like a replay format for Minecraft; records the seed and all actions taken. <-- would be huge and slow down things. Especially since I tend to move view a lot to look for minerals
22:29:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Just record those at N fps.
22:29:59 <elliott> The actual keypresses and stuff will be tiny.
22:30:06 <olsner> well, except that printf probably makes good use of output buffering that write wouldn't give you
22:30:09 <Vorpal> elliott, mouse movements
22:30:35 <Vorpal> printf is quite useful
22:30:56 <Vorpal> write, read, printf, mmm
22:31:11 <fizzie> 50 fps of a couple of floating-point camera-position values isn't very many kilobytes/sec even as-is like that.
22:32:00 <Vorpal> <Gregor> elliott: The .gz.tars are not called .gz.tars on HP-UX, they were just part of the crazy package system, called .pkg or something. <--- where did we get *.gz.tar!?
22:32:16 <Gregor> Oh god INFINITE LOOPING CONVERSATION
22:32:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, please tell me though
22:33:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you use nice or fast rendering?
22:33:11 <Gregor> Vorpal: .tar has random access, .gz has compression, .tar.gz sacrifices random access in the name of compression, but you can get nearly the same compression ratio with file-level random access by gzipping files then tarring that.
22:33:15 <Gregor> Vorpal: Hence, .gz.tar.
22:33:33 <fizzie> The Alpha multiplayer protocol sends a 9-byte (float, float, bool) packet every time you turn your head. (Don't quite know how often.)
22:33:40 <olsner> elliott: one iffy part of read/write is that they may randomly decide to do only part of the buffer because it's convenient or because the system call was "interrupted" (well, for the "traditional" variants of read/write at least)
22:33:41 <Gregor> Vorpal: Yes, .zip or .7z is better, but they're so WINDOWSY :P
22:33:48 <Vorpal> I use fast, anything else is too slow for me
22:33:59 <elliott> olsner: Nobody actually does that :P
22:34:17 <Vorpal> elliott, mostly for sockets
22:34:18 <elliott> Vorpal: In my nice world, nobody actually does that.
22:34:26 <Vorpal> elliott, for sockets it happens sometimes
22:34:26 <elliott> Vorpal: In my nice world, nobody actually does sockets X-P
22:34:46 <Vorpal> elliott, mostly because kernel buffer is full though
22:34:57 <olsner> you do run into the partial read/write even on sensible modern systems like linux
22:35:21 <elliott> Gregor: [[[on distributing BSD-licensed programs linked with the GPL'd dietlibc]
22:35:21 <elliott> <Gregor> elliott: You just have to provide sources secondarily to the install media, which puts the onus of continuing that redistribution on the people who download it :P
22:35:21 <elliott> <Gregor> elliott: The install media can just be downloadable alongside the sources.
22:35:21 <elliott> <Gregor> elliott: Dude, the GPL is not MS Shared Source. When you want to redistribute something linked to something under the GPL, that just means you have to redistribute the whole thing under the terms of the GPL; that just means including sources.]]
22:35:25 <elliott> Gregor: Is this acceptable to you?
22:36:05 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, wait, I forgot <Gregor> I [...] f[...]u[...]ck go[...]at[...]s [...] a lot.
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22:36:53 <elliott> Vorpal: It's totally true, I just elided some rubbish!
22:37:07 <olsner> when I get around to implementing file I/O I will just make my kernel do the whole operation except when it encounters an error or if non-blocking IO is explicitly enabled
22:37:11 <Gregor> elliott: Add "in this case" after "GPL;" and before "that", and that's fine.
22:37:15 <elliott> #define writes(fd,s) write(fd, s, sizeof(s))
22:37:15 <elliott> #define writev(fd,s) write(fd, s, strlen(s))
22:37:22 <elliott> olsner: You don't need files! :-)
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22:37:50 <olsner> hmm, did you swap writes and writev there?
22:37:54 <elliott> Gregor: Sure. Can I also remove "elliott:" and "Dude,"?
22:37:59 <elliott> olsner: writes writes a constant string
22:38:02 <elliott> for which sizeof(s) is the length
22:38:07 <elliott> writev writes a variable length string
22:38:15 <elliott> for which strlen(s) is the length (and sizeof == sizeof(char *))
22:38:16 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't writev to do scatter-io?
22:38:24 <Vorpal> readv, writev - read or write data into multiple buffers
22:38:29 <Vorpal> elliott, it is awesome :P
22:38:36 <Vorpal> for some high performance network stuff
22:38:36 <elliott> Consider it *writevs or something.
22:38:53 <elliott> Gregor: What about ":P"? You want that removed too, Mr. Uptight? :-P
22:38:55 <fizzie> olsner: I don't see how that's a problem with read/write as opposed to fread/fwrite; fread is allowed to return partial results too if the underlying read gets interrupted. (It's specified in terms of fgetc, and fgetc may return with errno=EINTR.)
22:39:03 <Gregor> elliott: No, :P is my signature :P
22:39:17 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, no, it's mine, I have :P on almost every line :P
22:39:28 <elliott> fizzie: Quick, SQL our logs; :Ps/msgs of both of us, who has more?
22:39:34 <Vorpal> elliott, Gregor so do I :P
22:39:44 <elliott> You don't count as a person.
22:40:07 <olsner> fizzie: the problem I have with fread is that fread is somehow supposed to be "higher" level - but it doesn't actually provide any useful abstraction over plain read
22:40:17 <Vorpal> elliott, hey you! [ACTIVATE MINECRAFT_TROJAN]
22:40:49 <elliott> Gregor: How would you like to be referred to? "Associate"? "Cow-orker"? "Fiancée"? "Lord"? "Murderer"? "Mother of my son"?
22:41:08 <olsner> fizzie: oh, and I meant that as a generic thing that is iffy with read/write without considering fread/fwrite at all
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22:41:38 <olsner> wasn't quite aware that fread/fwrite were allowed to do that except (obviously) on EOF
22:43:09 <olsner> this almost makes me want a pet antelope: http://www.google.se/images?q=royal+antelope
22:43:09 <elliott> Gregor: I already mentioned it was on IRC :P
22:44:48 <elliott> Gregor: I'll just avoid referring to you at all.
22:44:52 <olsner> speaking of butlers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPVcxy1zreA :)
22:46:36 <Vorpal> elliott, Gregor http://sprunge.us/cTEd
22:46:40 <fizzie> elliott: Your :P-factor is .022655 (7003/309109) while Gregor's is .132536 (6265/47270), sorry. (These numbers have a significant margin of error, they were quite quick-and-dirty, but anyway.)
22:46:48 <elliott> fizzie: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
22:47:11 <elliott> I STILL WIN ON ABSOLUTE COUNT
22:47:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, can you give me the query and I can do them on the nick merged table?
22:47:29 <elliott> Vorpal: Hey, zuff is me too.
22:47:38 <Gregor> Vorpal: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU :P
22:48:28 <Vorpal> elliott, then http://sprunge.us/bORK
22:48:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: I did some hand-made nick-merging there: http://p.zem.fi/ymnz -- and I counted "%:P%", not just end-of-line; and I counted the factors manually out of those two numbers.
22:48:44 <elliott> It is the termination that matters.
22:48:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Now divide by total messages :P
22:49:04 <elliott> fizzie: YOUR MERGE IS WOEFULLY INADEQUATE
22:49:06 <olsner> what, tusho was also elliott?
22:49:08 <elliott> I have many billions of nicks.
22:49:16 <elliott> fizzie: Dude... you forgot "alise".
22:49:20 <elliott> fizzie: Pretty big omission there :P
22:49:30 <Vorpal> elliott, are you *sure* that "<elliott> %:P% does not count." ?
22:49:46 <olsner> elliott: figured that from elliott matching the first name of ehird
22:50:04 <Vorpal> elliott, well bad for you. In absolute number that increases your lead even more
22:50:05 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, right. You should stop with all that nick-changing. The automagical regexp-remapping I have only works for the Python log-plots, I don't have a messy sqlite view like that.
22:51:25 <olsner> I wonder if I ever talked to tusho, but I remember the nick
22:51:43 <elliott> olsner: I am ehird, tusho, alise, zuff, estoppel, ... :P
22:52:09 <olsner> "estoppel", hmm, vague recollection there
22:52:21 <Vorpal> elliott, working on it
22:52:35 <elliott> olsner: I was estoppel for all of a few days :P
22:52:38 <Vorpal> elliott, you want to write the INNER JOIN?
22:52:52 <Vorpal> elliott, then don't complain
22:53:12 <fizzie> You don't need any joins, just two subqueries and then a / on them.
22:53:16 <elliott> olsner: WE SHOULD WRITE NONSTD-IO!!11127238947293487234
22:53:30 <elliott> (Does SQL taint minds so?)
22:53:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: Alternatively, just do it like in http://p.zem.fi/ymnz and do the single division manually.
22:53:54 -!- cheater99 has joined.
22:53:58 <fizzie> (That one gives you "is-:P" and "is-not-:P" counts for one nick.
22:54:36 <fizzie> Oh, unless you want to sort by the normalized :P ratios; that's trickier. But here you just needed the numbers for elliott and Gregor.
22:55:49 <elliott> Quick -- favourite libc/POSIX function. Name it!
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22:56:35 <Vorpal> > select a.nick as nick, b.cnt / a.total as ratio from (select nick, count(*) as total from irc.logs_na where type in (0,1) group by nick) as a, (select nick as nick,count(*) as cnt from irc.logs_na where type in (0,1) and body like '%:P%' group by nick) as b WHERE a.nick = b.nick order by ratio desc limit 20;
22:56:53 <elliott> Vorpal: That will run on every single nick.
22:56:56 <Vorpal> elliott, why? I dropped the inner join
22:56:59 <Vorpal> elliott, and correct, it will
22:57:12 <Vorpal> I got integer division
22:57:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do you get non-integer division?
22:58:04 <elliott> fizzie: "case body like '%:P%' when 1 then 1 else 0 end"
22:58:10 <elliott> fizzie: Couldn't you do int(bool) or something?
22:58:37 <Vorpal> elliott, arvid=> select a.nick as nick, b.cnt::real / a.total::real as ratio from (select nick, count(*) as total from irc.logs_na where type in (0,1) group by nick) as a, (select nick as nick,count(*) as cnt from irc.logs_na where type in (0,1) and body like '%:P%' group by nick) as b WHERE a.nick = b.nick order by ratio desc limit 20;
22:58:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also +0.0 works.
22:58:49 <Vorpal> it is postgresql specific syntax I think
22:58:58 <fizzie> If you want the joined version, here's it in sqlite:
22:59:05 <Vorpal> elliott, you are not in the top 20
22:59:07 <fizzie> sqlite> select nick, (p.pcnt+0.0)/np.cnt as pf from (select nick, count(*) as pcnt from logs where type = 0 and body like '%:P' group by nick) as p natural join (select nick, count(*) as cnt from logs where type = 0 group by nick) as np order by pf desc limit 20;
22:59:10 <fizzie> Svenstaro|0.666666666666667
22:59:25 -!- sebbu has joined.
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22:59:26 <elliott> fizzie: I think ordering by absolutes is the best X__X
22:59:31 <elliott> And just displaying the ratio.
22:59:48 <fizzie> elliott: Filtering with number-of-lines is good enough. Like this:
22:59:54 <fizzie> sqlite> select nick, (p.pcnt+0.0)/np.cnt as pf from (select nick, count(*) as pcnt from logs where type = 0 and body like '%:P' group by nick) as p natural join (select nick, count(*) as cnt from logs where type = 0 group by nick) as np where np.cnt > 10000 order by pf desc limit 20;
22:59:54 <fizzie> GregorR|0.118136747077105
22:59:54 <fizzie> ehird`|0.0351198287174529
22:59:54 <fizzie> psygnisfive|0.0350286077558805
22:59:55 <fizzie> pikhq|0.0294485036190346
22:59:55 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:59:55 -!- sebbu has quit (Excess Flood).
22:59:57 <fizzie> tusho|0.0246700781039591
23:00:00 <fizzie> Then just run that in the nick-merged table.
23:00:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Run that on the merged one kthx :P
23:00:21 -!- sebbu has joined.
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23:00:42 <Vorpal> different column names
23:00:47 <elliott> Hey -- I think BSD tar doesn't accept options without - in front of them.
23:01:06 <fizzie> Well, it needs nick, body and type, where type = 0 tests for msg-ness.
23:01:27 <Vorpal> select * from (select a.nick as nick, b.cnt as cnt, b.cnt::real / a.total::real as ratio from (select nick, count(*) as total from irc.logs_na where type in (0,1) group by nick) as a, (select nick as nick,count(*) as cnt from irc.logs_na where type in (0,1) and body like '%:P%' group by nick) as b WHERE a.nick = b.nick order by b.cnt desc limit 20) as foo order by foo.ratio;
23:01:47 <fizzie> You're doing %:P% there again.
23:02:09 <elliott> Regexp matching isn't sh-portable, right?
23:02:26 <elliott> i.e. regexp matching might not work in non-bash shells.
23:02:27 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean [[ =~ ]] ?
23:02:34 <Vorpal> then that is bash specific
23:02:52 <Vorpal> elliott, http://sprunge.us/eMRN
23:03:09 <Vorpal> is that order the wrong way?
23:03:24 <Vorpal> elliott, JUST READ IT BOTTOM UP!
23:03:33 -!- sebbu has joined.
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23:03:40 <elliott> Vorpal: Please tell me that my number of %:P messages exceeds Gregor's number of total messages.
23:03:47 <elliott> Or, wait, fizzie measured both, didn't he?
23:04:02 -!- sebbu has joined.
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23:04:12 <Vorpal> elliott, you could calculate the total number from the ratio...
23:04:21 <olsner> elliott: 8947*0.03 looks like a lot less than 6652
23:04:29 -!- sebbu has joined.
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23:04:38 <Vorpal> elliott, okay other way around: http://sprunge.us/TJgX
23:04:57 -!- sebbu has joined.
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23:05:08 <Vorpal> olsner, I do different nick merging
23:05:20 <Vorpal> because he had so many nicks
23:05:22 -!- sebbu has joined.
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23:05:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, you have +o can you ban sebbu for now so he stops this spam?
23:05:52 -!- sebbu has joined.
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23:06:20 -!- sebbu has joined.
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23:06:25 <elliott> poiuyutjyyj_qwert, whatever his nick is, did it yesterday too :P
23:06:29 <Vorpal> olsner, dumped the view: http://sprunge.us/WGYW
23:06:36 <Vorpal> elliott, well I wasn't here then
23:06:42 <Vorpal> so I didn't know about it
23:06:50 -!- sebbu has joined.
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23:06:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Um, you don't have estoppel.
23:07:16 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
23:07:19 -!- sebbu has joined.
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23:07:26 <olsner> Vorpal: that's an SQL query, as opposed to something actually useful for me
23:07:29 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: +b sebbu!*@*.
23:07:44 <fizzie> How long should I keep that thing up? A few minutes? Will it stop autojoining then?
23:08:06 <olsner> not that any of this is "useful" to begin with, but the results I can at least read :)
23:08:10 <Vorpal> elliott, here: http://sprunge.us/BaGc
23:08:13 <elliott> fizzie: If you op me I'll sort it out for you.
23:08:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, unlikely to help since it is auto quitting
23:08:49 <Vorpal> olsner, sql query is all you get
23:09:03 <fizzie> I think I'll -- not now, but later -- have that Python script push in merged nicks to another table. It's not as elegant as a modifiable view, maybe, but might be fastener.
23:09:10 <elliott> fizzie: If you op me I'll sort it out for you!1121212121111
23:09:19 <Vorpal> olsner, FINALLY NOTHING BETWEEN ME AND WORLD DOMINATION!
23:09:33 <elliott> `addquote <Vorpal> olsner, FINALLY NOTHING BETWEEN ME AND WORLD DOMINATION!
23:09:50 <elliott> I should maybe have added the olsner thing.
23:09:53 <HackEgo> 256|<Vorpal> olsner, FINALLY NOTHING BETWEEN ME AND WORLD DOMINATION!
23:10:00 <elliott> `addquote <olsner> DAMN YOU, I'm leaving <Vorpal> olsner, FINALLY NOTHING BETWEEN ME AND WORLD DOMINATION!
23:10:01 <HackEgo> 257|<olsner> DAMN YOU, I'm leaving <Vorpal> olsner, FINALLY NOTHING BETWEEN ME AND WORLD DOMINATION!
23:10:09 <Vorpal> elliott, your revert failed
23:10:15 <Vorpal> elliott, now sort it out
23:10:16 <HackEgo> 256|<Vorpal> olsner, FINALLY NOTHING BETWEEN ME AND WORLD DOMINATION!
23:10:52 <elliott> A pittance of, uh, hugs, to anyone who writes xzt(1).
23:11:11 <elliott> (find -type d -exec xz '{}' \; + tar, and the reverse of that)
23:11:18 <elliott> Vorpal: .xzt = .xz.tar, except not confusingly-named if taken literally.
23:11:22 <elliott> (Also more 8.3 compatible.)
23:11:33 <olsner> elliott: like... tar with compression on the inside instead of the outside?
23:11:41 <elliott> olsner: Yes, as discussed 89573495834734589 times with Gregor.
23:11:57 <olsner> I wasn't listening then!
23:11:58 <elliott> olsner: You can see the file structure, and only decompress some files if you want to, and the like.
23:12:05 <Vorpal> elliott, .zip.tar.bz2 inside a tarball
23:12:08 <elliott> olsner: And the compression lost is roughly zero, since tars hardly have much overhead :P
23:12:18 <elliott> Vorpal: No, not seriously :P
23:12:29 <Vorpal> elliott, it was something from Xilinx
23:12:48 <Vorpal> elliott, so it does. ais would not be surprised
23:12:52 <olsner> orly? I always thought of tar as having massive overhead
23:12:59 <fizzie> Overhead is not why it loses in compression ratios: not being able to compress across files is.
23:13:06 <elliott> olsner: Try it for yourself (say, the Linux kernel).
23:13:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I think the outer tar was not compressed. But it was made without an index...
23:13:25 <Vorpal> elliott, and it was around 3 GB
23:13:25 <elliott> fizzie: Well, yes; obviously, the Ideal Format would handle that, too, but -- hey, zip and rar do it.
23:13:29 <elliott> And they're not exactly unpopular.
23:13:46 <elliott> Going to do the kernel (with bz2, so it's fair) to compare.
23:14:17 <Vorpal> elliott, not xz outside and xz inside?
23:14:33 <fizzie> Intel outside and Intel inside.
23:14:36 <elliott> Vorpal: That would be immensely pointless and overhead-inducing :P
23:14:46 <fizzie> Let's see if the noise is still there.
23:14:48 <Vorpal> elliott, not at the same time duh
23:14:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant to compare the sizes
23:15:05 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -b Sebbu!*@*.
23:15:09 <olsner> I don't remember which block size tar uses, but it pads to even blocks and stuff, which seems like something you might want to skip if you don't compress on the ourside
23:15:39 <elliott> olsner: ...that's beyond stupid.
23:15:53 <Vorpal> elliott, no it isn't. zip does that by default too
23:15:54 <elliott> olsner: LET'S JUST USE 7ZIP.
23:16:10 <elliott> http://p7zip.sourceforge.net/
23:16:25 <Vorpal> elliott, random seeking is not important in the kernel though
23:16:27 <elliott> Open format, portable compressor.
23:16:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but it's a matter of principle :P
23:16:36 <olsner> elliott: yep, afaik 7zip is perfectly sensible
23:16:59 <fizzie> Sensible, and therefore off-topic for us.
23:17:18 <elliott> I hope .7z stores file permissions and symlinks and the like.
23:17:23 <elliott> If it does, fuck it, I'm just going to use it forever.
23:17:51 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_compression
23:18:04 <elliott> olsner: LOL 7ZIP IS LIKE .TAR.FOO
23:18:40 <olsner> elliott: istr that's an option when you create the archive, if you want it solid or not
23:18:58 <elliott> Fuck it, we'll do it live.
23:19:09 <elliott> <elliott> Quick -- favourite libc/POSIX function. Name it!
23:19:13 <olsner> "*Support for* solid compression" emphasis mine
23:19:38 <olsner> but: "The 7z format does not store UNIX owner/group permissions"
23:20:26 <elliott> Vorpal: ...wh...you stole mine.
23:20:26 <fizzie> olsner: You can both toggle it on/off as well as set the maximum block size when it's on.
23:20:30 <elliott> I was going to pull out mmap() at the end.
23:20:42 <elliott> Vorpal: It's my favourite!
23:20:44 <fizzie> (So you sort of get the benefits of both.)
23:20:45 <elliott> Vorpal: The closest thing to orthogonal persistence this side of Torsion!
23:20:47 <Vorpal> elliott, it is mine too
23:21:04 <Vorpal> elliott, it is microoptimising of course ;P (j/k)
23:21:21 <fizzie> There's also a flag which makes it start a new solid block for each new file extension.
23:21:47 <fizzie> The assumption being that you want across-file compression for file format headers and such.
23:21:53 <Vorpal> <olsner> but: "The 7z format does not store UNIX owner/group permissions" <-- nor symlinks?
23:22:17 <Vorpal> elliott, idea: squashfs archives
23:22:19 <olsner> if you bother implementing symlinks I'm pretty sure you'll make space for a few bits of owner/group info too
23:22:39 <Vorpal> elliott, they are non-solid
23:22:45 <Vorpal> elliott, also very convenient to use
23:22:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Why convenient? 'Cause you can mount them?
23:23:31 <Vorpal> elliott, hey I put mathematica on one and icc on another, nwn static files on a third. In total I saved over 7 GB on my laptop. :P
23:23:32 <olsner> hmm, if you can only have exactly one system call, I think you should make it mmap
23:23:47 <Vorpal> elliott, and yes you can mount them
23:23:53 <Vorpal> elliott, then out of tree build becomes easy
23:23:57 -!- nooga has joined.
23:24:04 <Vorpal> mount gcc.squash gcc-src
23:24:20 <Vorpal> ../gcc-src/configure --whatever
23:24:23 <elliott> Vorpal: I need to write a mount-loopback(1) with FUSE sometime; stupid mount(1) is root-only...
23:24:37 <elliott> Also, how is that easier than just untarring it?
23:24:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Why? Saves disk space only?
23:25:01 <Vorpal> elliott, and you don't use up inodes
23:25:24 <Vorpal> elliott, that used to be a problem historically
23:26:49 <fizzie> There's a thing called "mountlo" which I think is a fuse-driven loopback device.
23:26:50 <Vorpal> elliott, because it was like 16 bit counter and it would overflow.. With serious effects
23:26:54 <olsner> hmm, or a system call for writing a single byte on some kind of "system command stream" might be another nice single-syscall os
23:27:06 <fizzie> It seems that the autojoin/quit noise did in fact stop.
23:27:12 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
23:27:20 <olsner> but it seems a bit too easy to just add multiplexing and wrap it in nice libraries so that it isn't esoteric anymore but just slow :/
23:28:16 <olsner> same thing for mmap-only, you'd just use mmio to "call" hundreds of system functions by writing commands into designated pages
23:28:30 <olsner> *something similar to mmio
23:28:58 <Vorpal> elliott, weird yellow text in minecraft
23:29:12 <Vorpal> it doesn't change either
23:29:38 <elliott> Notch - Minepedia - The Minecraft Wiki!
23:29:38 <elliott> He lives just outside of Stockholm, Sweden. Notch is 31. He enjoys working on Minecraft. He is engaged to his fiancée, Elin aka "ez"; He is SCUBA certified ...
23:29:54 <fizzie> [freenode] -!- There is no such nick ez
23:30:14 <fizzie> Not in Freenode == doesn't exist.
23:30:15 <elliott> Boy this is beyond tedious...
23:30:20 <Vorpal> elliott, what was his real name now again?
23:30:27 <Vorpal> Some very very generic one iirc
23:30:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Markus ALEXEJ Persson.
23:30:47 <Vorpal> elliott, not very common middle name
23:30:53 <olsner> you missed a few on the end :)
23:31:00 <Vorpal> but Markus Persson, that is very common
23:31:24 <Vorpal> olsner, beat you to it
23:31:43 <olsner> Vorpal: DAMN YOU, and this time I'm really leaving!
23:31:55 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/minecraft-splash has the regulat splash-texts, though it was extricated from a pre-Halloween Alpha.
23:31:57 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:32:29 <fizzie> The "This text is hard to read if you play the game at the default resolution, but at 1080p it's fine!
23:32:51 <Vorpal> elliott, Legal in Finland?
23:32:52 <fizzie> Yes, most things are illegal here.
23:32:56 <Vorpal> huh, someone better explain that
23:33:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, "Now supports ���!"?
23:33:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: Encoding problem, maybe.
23:33:55 <fizzie> /v/ could be a image-board thing.
23:34:01 <elliott> Vorpal: http://boards.4chan.org/v/
23:34:08 <elliott> Fits in with the other surrounding "Woo"s.
23:34:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I just closed browser and opened minecraft, what is it about?
23:34:29 <elliott> As they're all game-related (well, Something Awful only semi-related, but.)
23:34:34 <elliott> Vorpal: It's a 4chan board.
23:34:40 <Vorpal> elliott, yes and the topic is?
23:34:51 <elliott> "The Vidya"; or, less opaqueley, video games.
23:36:37 <fizzie> Current list: http://p.zem.fi/minecraft-splashes-2
23:37:26 <fizzie> The chars in "now supports" one actually seem to be valid utf-8 for the missing-char glyph in the source .txt, unless I mislooked.
23:38:06 <elliott> "Eple (original edit)!" -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBiRcAmmJVY
23:38:12 <elliott> (Unless that isn't the original edit.)
23:44:32 <oklopol> and then i decided to dig up but ran outta ladders and then i came up and i died.
23:45:52 <elliott> oklopol: you dig staircase-style
23:45:57 <elliott> oklopol: also, classic or alpha?
23:47:36 <oklopol> but wanted to go straight up
23:49:02 <fizzie> You can go staight up with a 4x4 shaft with no ladders by leaving a circular-staircase thing going around and around the shaft. (It's more boring to climb, though.)
23:49:39 <fizzie> W.r.t. ladders, have you noticed that you only need to put those to every other square in order to be able to climb?
23:49:52 <fizzie> That's 50 % savings right there.
23:52:14 <fizzie> s/4x4/3x3/ up there if you prefer.
23:52:17 * elliott considers forking http://dmr.ath.cx/net/darkhttpd/ and adding CGI/SCGI support
23:52:29 <elliott> pikhq: shell account is gone i would guess
23:52:34 <elliott> pikhq: (not in here and email account on the same server is dead)
23:52:47 <elliott> pikhq: but he's commented on Gödel's Last Letter and P=NP so he's fine :P
23:52:48 -!- elliott has left (?).
23:52:50 -!- elliott has joined.
23:58:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, the happy birthday, ez one is not there?
23:58:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you need one at the top square?
23:58:49 <fizzie> Possibly, or maybe you can jump.
23:58:57 <oklopol> fizzie: obviously i didn't start playing without watching hours of tutorials and reading the wiki for hours first
23:59:19 <fizzie> oklopo: But of course!
23:59:46 <Vorpal> nether is really quite efficient if you only care approximately where you end up
00:00:08 <elliott> oklopol: so is it classic or alpharrrrrrr
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00:00:41 <oklopol> it doesn't really run on my computer
00:00:56 -!- calamari has joined.
00:01:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, doesn't look as nice though
00:01:33 <elliott> oklopol: you bought it? :P
00:01:42 <elliott> oklopol: set 3d rendering to fast, rendering distance to short
00:03:08 <oklopol> but anyway it isn't that laggy in the mine and that's where i be.
00:06:52 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, so... Presumably he just hasn't bothered with IRC.
00:07:44 <elliott> pikhq: No, he lost his shell account that he irssis from. :P
00:09:43 <pikhq> And he can't just use irssi on his own computer... Why?
00:10:23 <elliott> pikhq: It's cool-Windows-user convention to only irssi from a shell account :P
00:10:42 <calamari> cool-Windows-user? what is this creature?
00:11:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
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00:13:32 <calamari> although I use Ubuntu so that's not very cool either :(
00:13:46 <elliott> meh, ubuntu is... workable
00:13:51 <elliott> it's not like any other distro is better
00:13:59 <elliott> who wants to spend effort on current shitty systems?
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00:19:11 <Sasha> elliott: Microsoft does!
00:20:23 <Vorpal> aaaah, a portal in the middle of a packice
00:22:35 <Vorpal> elliott, well I placed some stones around it now, since it was melting
00:22:50 <Vorpal> elliott, but sure, starting minecraft again, was just checking in mapper
00:24:21 <Vorpal> elliott, no, the ice was
00:30:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, elliott, see new screenshots at the same url as before.
00:30:40 <elliott> Vorpal: BUT I'M DOING ~HOMEWORK~ (tedium tedium tedium)
00:30:51 <Vorpal> elliott, well, then don't see them
00:31:09 <elliott> no it would be a welcome break, link me :P
00:31:16 <Vorpal> elliott, same link as before
00:31:45 <elliott> http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/2010-11-09_01.10.36.png bendy lava
00:31:53 <elliott> http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/2010-11-09_01.24.25.png gahaha
00:32:36 <Vorpal> elliott, the former is flowing ;P
00:32:48 <Vorpal> elliott, I didn't say it wasn't
00:32:49 * elliott notes to self http://www.mathopd.org/
00:32:53 <Vorpal> it is flowing and bending
00:33:09 <Vorpal> <elliott> http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/2010-11-09_01.24.25.png gahaha <-- what is so funny?
00:33:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I placed the cobblestone around there since it was melting by itself
00:33:40 <elliott> Bird on ice! PORTAL WITH OMINOUS TORCHES on blocks inexplicably floating in water.
00:33:58 <Vorpal> and the torches aren't omnious
00:34:17 <Vorpal> just there to give it some style
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00:37:30 <Sgeo> Why is .tar.gz more popular than .gz.tar
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00:40:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Heh, I was deciding what to call my darkhttpd fork, and thought "hey, invert it" -- oops -- and then realised the pun.
00:40:41 <elliott> (invert the name, that is.)
00:41:04 <Vorpal> elliott, wasn't it obvious from the start
00:42:19 <elliott> Vorpal: C on a Lisp Machine ends up very DS9Ky: http://lists.tunes.org/archives/lispos/1997-June/001659.html
00:42:24 <elliott> [[This isn't as bad as it sounds because (except in the presence of casts) C is
00:42:25 <elliott> strongly typed. The vast majority of C code is not finicky about the
00:42:25 <elliott> representation of pointers; only something like a Lisp implementation in C
00:42:25 <elliott> (e.g. GNU Emacs), which was doing its own pointer tagging, would have trouble.
00:42:25 <elliott> All pointers were represented as pairs of an array and an index; NULL was
00:42:25 <elliott> simply a pair of NIL and 0. If you cast a pointer to an integer, you got a
00:42:27 <elliott> cons of the array part and the index part. You could later cast this back to
00:42:29 <elliott> a pointer without loss of information, but obviously you couldn't do
00:42:31 <elliott> arithmetic on it while it was in the form of a cons.]]
00:42:42 <elliott> "For instance, I used Lisp integers for C `int' and `long'. This meant bignums
00:42:42 <elliott> would be created automatically, as usual in Lisp."
00:44:04 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:45:58 <elliott> [[I should add that ZETA-C made critical use of the Lisp Machine's support for
00:45:59 <elliott> displaced arrays of different element sizes: one can displace a byte array
00:45:59 <elliott> onto a halfword or word array. (Common Lisp doesn't support this, and I don't
00:45:59 <elliott> think Scheme has displaced arrays at all.) This permitted storage of
00:45:59 <elliott> different sizes of things in a single aggregate, and also, e.g., writing a
00:45:59 <elliott> word through a pointer, casting the pointer to a byte pointer, and reading the
00:46:02 <elliott> word back as bytes, which is something C programs do occasionally.]]
00:46:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, and I gave up forking darkhttpd when I saw that it used stdio.
00:46:43 <elliott> So now I'm writing my own httpd -- how unusual of me!
00:46:59 <elliott> - Parses and responds to HTTP requests
00:47:18 <elliott> - Serves a Unix file hierarchy (with sendfile, if it can)
00:49:33 <elliott> [[ Don wrote the chapter on the
00:49:33 <elliott> X-Windows Disaster. (To annoy X fanatics, Don specifically asked that we
00:49:33 <elliott> include the hyphen after the letter “X,” as well as the plural on the word
00:49:33 <elliott> “Windows,” in his chapter title.)]]
00:52:33 <elliott> Vorpal: No; thttpd is bloated and has useless features like "throttling".
00:52:43 <elliott> Also it supports CGI, and where's the fun in not being able to write my own?
00:52:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, and the options are in UPPERCASE.
00:52:57 <elliott> Which annoys me very slightly.
00:53:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Besides, it probably uses stdio.
00:53:20 <Vorpal> elliott, nothing wrong with upper case: $PATH
00:53:27 <elliott> Yes but not for configuration files.
00:53:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, and have you *seen* the size of the tarball?
00:53:44 <Vorpal> elliott, more screenshots btw
00:53:57 <elliott> Real httpds are one file big.
00:54:15 <elliott> Actually, instead of supporting SCGI, I might just support proxying to another server.
00:54:40 <Vorpal> elliott, will you support HTTP/1.1?
00:54:47 <Vorpal> with persistent connections?
00:54:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, first one, yes. Second one, almost certainly (yes).
00:55:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: Everyone knows that dynamic pages are bullshit.
00:55:08 <Vorpal> elliott, you have to support the second for the first
00:55:11 <elliott> (It's just a matter of resetting the state to the initial state and then not disconnecting!)
00:55:27 <elliott> Vorpal: HTTP/1.1 is required for Host:, too, which is kind of vital.
00:55:31 <Vorpal> elliott, did you see those screenshots?
00:55:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Make some screenshots of Nether.
00:55:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I think there was a few before?
00:55:52 <pikhq> elliott: I'm not entirely sure I was being sarcastic there. Honest.
00:55:56 <Vorpal> could make some of that lava cavern
00:56:18 <elliott> pikhq: If you just want static pages, there are options for you. Such as darkhttpd :P
00:57:25 <elliott> Vorpal: no, i have no desire of being zzo38
00:57:28 <pikhq> elliott: I am always heavily tempted to create webpages via compilation.
00:57:44 <elliott> pikhq: how can you serve random fortunes on your homepage without dynamic pages?
00:57:46 <pikhq> Like a CMS but less actual work.
00:57:52 <pikhq> elliott: Javascript!
01:03:07 <elliott> $ perl -e'print `/bin/ls`, "\n"'
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01:11:27 <elliott> pikhq: I hereby present fortune.cgi: http://sprunge.us/TcAP?pl
01:11:30 <elliott> pikhq: TEMPLATING IS FOR WEENIES.
01:12:12 <pikhq> elliott: Nice work on omitting the head and body and html tags.
01:12:27 <pikhq> elliott: So many people seem to not know they're optional.
01:12:46 <elliott> s/\${FORTUNE}/chomp($x=`fortune -a`) and $x/e;
01:12:57 <elliott> s/\${FORTUNE}/chomp($x=`fortune -a`); $x/e;
01:13:02 <elliott> Greater simplification, but uglier :P
01:13:15 <pikhq> (well, optional in the file. The DOM makes them via magic, anyways.)
01:13:32 <elliott> pikhq: (The bonus of this is that you can set your editor to HTML mode and it'll basically work.
01:13:54 <elliott> pikhq: Of course, with pages like this, one might as well use PHP for all the good it'll do you :-P
01:14:44 <elliott> pikhq: (TODO: HTTP server to run it on.)
01:14:49 <Vorpal> elliott, same URL. Note that 2010-11-09_02.01.24.png is *looking upwards*, though it is hard to tell.
01:15:21 <elliott> Vorpal: By the way, /r/minecraft advice is to version-control your savefiles.
01:15:33 <elliott> Vorpal: (Well, technically the non-nerds there word it as "put them in Dropbox", but same thing.)
01:15:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I use rsync to back them up. they change a lot so vcs might be impractical
01:16:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Thus why you commit manually...
01:16:31 <Vorpal> elliott, about 2/3 change completely every time according to rsync
01:16:40 <Vorpal> elliott, though, nice savescumming with a vcs
01:17:52 <Vorpal> Number of files: 14235
01:17:53 <Vorpal> Number of files transferred: 8989
01:17:58 <Vorpal> which was unusually few files
01:18:00 <elliott> Vorpal: So have you encountered Herobrine yet?!
01:18:07 <Vorpal> sent 25.87M bytes received 172.22K bytes 2.08M bytes/sec
01:18:07 <Vorpal> total size is 25.26M speedup is 0.97
01:18:21 <elliott> Vorpal: See http://www.minecraftwiki.net/images/6/68/1283223082465.jpg.
01:18:25 <elliott> Vorpal: (If you say tl;dr I will punch you.)
01:20:56 <elliott> (Note: Not even vaguely true.)
01:21:09 <elliott> (Note: You can change textures. And they are fun!)
01:21:12 <elliott> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/User:Kizzycocoa/Herobrine
01:21:20 <Vorpal> yes and there are some strange things in that image
01:22:18 <Vorpal> elliott, the red thingy on the side
01:22:29 <elliott> Vorpal: that's a door, i think.
01:22:39 <elliott> "He is actually a retextured painting or iron door of the default skin with no eyes. This originated a long time ago, when a "creepy-pasta" was made about Herobrine."
01:22:49 <elliott> Vorpal: well, older version
01:23:35 <elliott> Vorpal: But it turns out...
01:23:41 <elliott> NOTCH'S BROTHER *WAS* CALLED HEROBRINE
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01:24:35 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Spleef
01:24:41 <Vorpal> elliott, read about it
01:25:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Sounds more fun if creating block werw allowed.
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01:26:54 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Adventure this looks fun although unminecrafty (you've probably seen)
01:27:43 <Vorpal> elliott, http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Minecraftcon_2010
01:28:53 <elliott> Vorpal: http://i.imgur.com/7qB8w.png
01:29:12 <pikhq> The Republican solution for the economy? LAYOFFS.
01:29:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I saw the contest?
01:29:38 <elliott> Vorpal: "coming tomorrow", 3 hours ago
01:29:40 <pikhq> As everyone knows, firing people provides economic stimulus by kicking it in the crotch, metaphorically.
01:29:48 <elliott> Vorpal: add http://twitter.com/notch to any rss reader you may have :P
01:30:06 <Vorpal> elliott, ah I believe I hit a fatal flaw with this scheme
01:30:08 <elliott> Vorpal: ha -- "First prize is a 180 GB SSD signed by me (yes, on the actual drive!)"
01:30:19 <Vorpal> elliott, adding to RSS reader
01:30:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't have one
01:30:36 <elliott> I get my noise from REDDIT!
01:30:50 <Vorpal> elliott, btw you won't get any UPDATES from me :P
01:31:41 <Vorpal> elliott, as in, I won't send you (and really won't, not just hypothetically won't) give you and updated alpha
01:31:47 <Vorpal> and I have of course never done so
01:32:01 <elliott> ah. well i'm buying, like, tomorrow anyway
01:32:11 <elliott> no reason not to, it's cheap
01:32:19 <elliott> "E Ink Unveils Color E-Reader Display"
01:32:35 <elliott> "Unlike an LCD screen, the colors are muted, as if one were looking at a faded color photograph. In addition, E Ink cannot handle full-motion video. At best, it can show simple animations."
01:32:35 <Vorpal> also how does it work?
01:32:39 <elliott> oh yeah that's totally what an e-ink screen is meant for
01:32:50 <elliott> Vorpal: http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/10/11/08/2025256/E-Ink-Unveils-Color-E-Reader-Display
01:32:59 <Vorpal> elliott, the muted colours might be a problem
01:33:24 <elliott> "Right. Color charts in "The Economist" are barely intelligible on Kindle." --comment
01:33:30 <Vorpal> elliott, well okay. I was thinking something like a garden photo book with thick glossy pages
01:33:57 <elliott> Vorpal: that's an item that exists just for the aesthetic experience, why would you abandon paper?
01:34:39 <pikhq> elliott: Abandon paper? Hell, I'm more likely to start printing and binding books myself than abandon paper.
01:34:57 <elliott> pikhq: E-readers are very worthwhile.
01:35:06 <pikhq> Yeah, but so are dead trees.
01:35:13 <Vorpal> can't sell the books on or?
01:35:26 <elliott> Vorpal: That's a flaw of current implementations.
01:35:31 <Vorpal> I mean, I sold old text books when I no longer needed it
01:35:36 <Vorpal> and if I can't do that... well fuck it
01:35:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Sell? Seriously? You have the goddamn file right there!
01:35:48 <elliott> You can make a million copies!
01:35:50 <Vorpal> even if it would reduce weight of backpack
01:35:56 <elliott> You are your own, limitless library, requiring no fees as you never run out.
01:35:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: DRM sucks.
01:36:02 <elliott> ...of course, then you run into copyright law.
01:36:13 <elliott> Which essentially... outlaws being a cost-free library.
01:36:25 <elliott> Make any sense? Of course it doesn't make any goddamn sense!
01:36:50 <Vorpal> also uh they wouldn't allow that into exams. Some exams allow you to bring course literatur
01:37:04 <Vorpal> elliott, oh did you like the nether screenshots?
01:37:24 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, dead trees are useless when you have 50 goddamn textbooks.
01:37:34 <Vorpal> elliott, CC-by-sa-nc-3.0 or GFDL, whichever annoys you most
01:37:42 <pikhq> elliott: I'm not saying ebooks are valueless.
01:37:44 <elliott> Vorpal: ...for the screenshots?
01:37:51 <pikhq> elliott: I'm saying that they're not a replacement for dead trees.
01:38:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Joyfully, I can make my own copy and do whatever I want to it regardless.
01:38:19 <Vorpal> elliott, the composition of the images was mine
01:38:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Also: Distribute a binary patch from your image to mine.
01:38:52 <elliott> Vorpal: binary-diff screenshot.png modified-screenshot.png >foo
01:39:06 <elliott> And then anyone can legally patch screenshot.png with foo!
01:39:23 <Vorpal> elliott, huh? what has that got to do with djb?
01:39:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Modern qemu is stock qemu + a shitload of patches because of the no-license thing.
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01:40:09 <elliott> It is illegal to modify and then redistribute qemu.
01:40:13 <elliott> Thus the mounds of patches.
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01:40:35 <elliott> A minecraft convention? It would be like SMP IRL! We'd just have to show up without any clothes or objects, constantly fall asleep/leave/come back, have people set fire to the convention center, and wait for someone other than the organizer to make the whole thing work! Yay!"
01:40:37 <Vorpal> elliott, djb made qemu!?
01:40:53 <Vorpal> elliott, you said qemu
01:40:57 <elliott> QEMU was Fabrice Bellard, the *other* god.
01:41:08 <Vorpal> elliott, and well, qmail yeah I know how it work
01:41:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I like the netqmail patchset
01:42:01 <elliott> djb has been licensing a lot of his software to shut people up, right?
01:42:03 <pikhq> God Fabrice Bellard is amazing.
01:42:24 <elliott> D. J. Bernstein and Fabrice Bellard once had a baby, but its amazingness counter overflowed and it died.
01:42:32 <elliott> Morale: Always use bignums.
01:42:51 <elliott> Vorpal: Great, now they're public domain! Swap ambiguity for ambiguity :) http://cr.yp.to/distributors.html
01:42:55 <Vorpal> elliott, ah not amazing enough then. Should have used lisp machines
01:43:20 <elliott> It was so awesome the universe killed it after detecting a being with negative awesomeness.
01:44:03 <pikhq> Huh. Fabrice Bellard devised a scheme to broadcast DVB-T from any arbitrary VGA card.
01:46:07 <elliott> [[This is not a hoax ! With a PC running Linux and a recent VGA card, you can emit a real digital TV signal in the VHF band to your DVB-T set-top box.]]
01:46:27 <elliott> I wish we had freeview instead of sky here, I'd be evil and broadcast eerie messages.
01:46:39 <elliott> (Assuming I can overpower the regional transmitters :P)
01:46:47 <elliott> "# A DVB-T set-top box able to receive VHF signals with a bandwidth of 8 MHz (unfortunately most decoders sold in UK only receive UHF signals). You can use French DVB-T receivers which accept VHF and UHF RF signals."
01:47:04 <elliott> "A cable connecting the VGA output to the set-top box RF input."
01:47:52 <Vorpal> "I am sorry to announce that the source code won't be available any time soon. "
01:48:17 <elliott> Vorpal: legal reasons, probably
01:50:45 <elliott> Vorpal: also http://www.erikyyy.de/tempest/
02:00:40 <elliott> http://www.erikyyy.de/superzoom/ wtf is the point of this :D
02:03:44 <elliott> http://www.tametick.com/cq/
02:06:48 <elliott> http://www.dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/ seen this before but linking anyway
02:09:38 <elliott> Wow... gcc has an option to set the random seed. Why does it use random numbers?
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02:27:45 <Gregor> Yes, upside-down backwards left-handed keyboarding is truly the best kind of keyboarding.
03:36:33 <Sgeo> 97.98pts (97.98%)
03:36:38 <Sgeo> On my Perl exam
03:38:12 <Ilari> Some randomized algorithms it uses?
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04:27:00 <pikhq> Ilari: Shouldn't a compiler be, y'know, deterministic?
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04:39:46 <Ilari> Randomized algorithms can produce perfectly deterministic results. It depends on the algorithm and data it is appiled on...
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04:43:59 <pikhq> Okay, true, it's entirely possible that they're doing something like that.
04:44:05 <pikhq> Though why is still beyond me.
04:44:16 <Gregor> It's worth looking in to.
04:47:35 <pikhq> Yeah, but I have missed out on screwing around doing nothing for today; I need to do that.
04:48:46 <Ilari> As to why would algorithm producing deterministic results use random numbers?
04:53:06 <pikhq> No, as to why they would use such an algorithm.
04:54:47 <madbr> I'm trying to design a simple instruction set, and I'm wondering what sort of instructions to help it run fast in small loops (no-cache system, 16 or 32 bits...)
04:56:11 <Ilari> No bad inputs is the usual reason for picking randomized algorithm...
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06:31:23 <fizzie> Why speculate when you can just read the fine manual?
06:31:30 <fizzie> "This option provides a seed that GCC uses when it would otherwise use random numbers. It is used to generate certain symbol names that have to be different in every compiled file. It is also used to place unique stamps in coverage data files and the object files that produce them. You can use the -frandom-seed option to produce reproducibly identical object files."
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06:40:07 <pikhq> I hope those are UUIDs.
06:40:27 <pikhq> Well, numbers with similar properties.
06:40:38 <pikhq> (namely, unique for most intents and purposes)
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09:21:10 <Vorpal> aaaaaaah, seems like syslog crashed during the night, and then the rest crashed just after I came back
09:21:56 <fizzie> Heh, there's a GraphViz thing in that Google chart API: http://code.google.com/apis/chart/docs/gallery/graphviz.html
09:22:49 <fizzie> In other news, I made me a nick-remapped table too:
09:22:51 <fizzie> sqlite> select count(*) from logs where type = 0 and nick = 'elliott';
09:22:51 <fizzie> sqlite> select count(*) from mlogs where type = 0 and nick = 'elliott';
09:23:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, with regex replace
09:23:32 <Vorpal> sure it should be slower but in practise it is fast enough even on this old computer
09:23:32 <Vorpal> using postgres that is
09:23:38 <Vorpal> sqlite is generally slower than postgres at lookup
09:23:53 <fizzie> Well, I don't have postgres at this work-box, so.
09:24:11 <fizzie> Do you (can you) have an index on the remapped nicks?
09:24:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, no, I couldn't find how
09:24:49 <fizzie> I think there's something, but a bit limited.
09:24:56 <fizzie> To be technical about it, mlogs is also a view.
09:25:02 <fizzie> CREATE VIEW mlogs AS SELECT
09:25:02 <fizzie> l.idx AS idx, l.tstamp AS tstamp,
09:25:02 <fizzie> m.mapnick AS nick, l.nick AS rawnick,
09:25:02 <fizzie> l.target AS target, l.uhost AS uhost, l.type AS type, l.body AS body
09:25:02 <fizzie> FROM logs l NATURAL JOIN nickmap m;
09:25:21 <fizzie> Where "nickmap" is a (idx, mapnick) table.
09:25:29 <fizzie> Didn't feel like duplicating everything.
09:27:06 <fizzie> Could've saved some space with only having one nick for those messages where there's no remapping going on, though.
09:28:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, but some of them has so many nick variants
09:28:17 <Vorpal> thus I opted for regexp
09:28:36 <fizzie> Well, those remappings are made with regexps too. It's the same set my esolog.py plotting tools use.
09:28:47 <fizzie> (I'm not sure it has all of elliott's billions of names in it, though.)
09:29:15 <fizzie> It does have the drawback that changing the regexps means regenerating the whole nickmap table.
09:29:39 <fizzie> Fortunately we only have one prominent serial nick-changer here.
09:31:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, you mean warringal?
09:31:52 <fizzie> The E is who I meant. I guess those aren't *that* often either, though.
09:32:39 <fizzie> You can make a PostgreSQL index on an expression "foo(x) || 'bar'" simply with "create index blah on tabley ((foo(x) || 'bar'))" -- the manual does say they're expensive to maintain, though. (And you'd need to duplicate your presumably-horrible regexp expression in both the view declaration and the index declaration.)
09:34:00 <fizzie> I have this sort of mapping: http://p.zem.fi/esonickmap (They're Python's strange "automatically anchored at start but not at end" regexps, and case-insensitive, and the second element in the tuples is what it maps to.)
09:35:06 <fizzie> (Oh, and I right-strip the set "-[]\`^{}_" from nicks too, to semi-automatically handle "foo" and "foo_".)
09:39:28 <fizzie> Hm, on this table I myself am pretty high up on the "%:P" ranking list: http://p.zem.fi/eso-p
09:40:15 <fizzie> (In yet other news, ".mode column" and ".headers on" made sqlite's output a lot more readable than the default "just fields separated with |".
09:41:22 <fizzie> It doesn't do automatic column-widths, though, so the nick column there is truncated for some.
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09:45:38 <fizzie> fungot: Hello again. Hopefully the short power outage didn't mess up your brane. I mean, brain.
09:45:39 <fungot> fizzie: please do not destroy it"))
09:45:58 <fungot> fizzie: s/ what are/ 1?
09:46:06 <fizzie> That doesn't look too good.
09:46:11 <fizzie> fungot: Are you *sure* you're okay?
09:46:12 <fungot> fizzie: hrm. that is if you had
09:46:23 <fizzie> Oh noes, he's completely bonkers.
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10:02:08 <fungot> FireFly: there is rom. also, i think i will ever use lisp because im in a class
10:02:25 <fungot> FireFly: then i must think of an esoteric language called cake. and it's not been the most reliable timing source. however, this guy is the fnord file
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13:34:35 <cheater99> http://gosu-lang.org/comparison.shtml
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16:05:32 <elliott> 01:21:10 <Vorpal> aaaaaaah, seems like syslog crashed during the night, and then the rest crashed just after I came back
16:05:32 <elliott> 01:21:14 <Vorpal> had to sysrq
16:05:38 <elliott> Your service manager didn't restart it?
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16:06:27 <elliott> 01:28:47 <fizzie> (I'm not sure it has all of elliott's billions of names in it, though.)
16:07:20 <elliott> fizzie: I'm ehird, (iEhird), tusho, zuff, alise, estoppel; Warrigal's ihope, uorygl, kerlo, tswett.
16:07:31 <elliott> 01:35:06 <fizzie> (Oh, and I right-strip the set "-[]\`^{}_" from nicks too, to semi-automatically handle "foo" and "foo_".)
16:07:41 <elliott> fizzie: Then ihope is ihope127 too, ...maybe, not sure; and I'm ehird` too.
16:14:57 <ais523> incidentally, Oracle vs. HP is hilarious
16:15:07 <ais523> Oracle tried to sue HP, and HP's CEO literally ran away and hid somewhere
16:15:15 <ais523> and now Oracle are trying to find him to serve him legal papers
16:15:58 <ais523> nobody's entirely sure whether he did it to avoid testifying in the court case, or whether he simply happened to be on holiday somewhere and doesn't have a clue what's going on
16:16:31 <elliott> ais523: oh come on, the CEO of HP not even looking at HP-related news a *little* on holiday? :)
16:17:17 <ais523> perhaps he saw the news reports saying he'd run away and hidden, and decided to humour the journalists
16:17:46 <elliott> ais523: [wikipedia venting, feel free to ignore if you want] I am SICK of getting my constructive, anonymous edits semi-automatically reverted and then having a vandalism warning being placed on my talk page just because I don't edit under a vanity, ego-boosting name. Yes, I removed a sentence! And a section header! The section was only one sentence! And it *directly* contradicted the first paragraph, which had newer information! Gah!
16:18:28 <ais523> elliott: the trick's to write a detailed edit summary of what's going on, then when someone templates you, explain on the article talk page and their talk page why you made the change
16:18:41 <ais523> normally, the other side either apologises or gives up
16:18:45 <elliott> # (cur | prev) 02:05, 9 November 2010 91.105.90.101 (talk) (8,782 bytes) (→Limitations: contradicts introduction) (undo) (Tag: section blanking)
16:19:00 <elliott> I'll make the summary less brief and thus obscure my intent more next time. :P
16:19:37 <ais523> I blanked a section a few days ago, and nobody contradicted me on that (→Early life: blank section; it's unsourced and BLP, and has been vandalised so often I have no idea what the actual correct data is. Please add a source before re-adding the section, or nobody else will be able to tell the truth either...)
16:20:03 <ais523> but I tend to go over-the-top with edit summaries when I'm doing something as potentially controversial as that
16:20:31 <ais523> (I'm uninvolved; I found the vandalism on that page when I was reverting vandalism on an unrelated page, and checked the other contributions of the vandal to see if they were vandalism too)
16:20:38 <elliott> ais523: yes, but you're a username
16:20:46 <elliott> unless you did it anonymously
16:20:56 <elliott> IPs are 1/16th of a person :p
16:21:06 <elliott> ais523: woot, i just wrote a detailed edit summary. TOO BIG TO FIT IN THE BOX
16:21:15 <ais523> in your case, you could have probably just tagged the section {{contradict|section}}, which has much the same effect as blanking and is less likely to be reverted
16:21:18 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, is making an account such an awful thing to do?
16:21:22 <elliott> dear jimbo wales: i'll give your solemn photographed ass some money when wikipedia stoped sucking
16:21:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Welcome to Missing The Point Entirely, Population: You
16:21:39 <elliott> ais523: yeah, no :P it'd have to go at the start of the article
16:21:44 <ais523> {{contradict}} at the top of the article
16:22:01 <ais523> and there is indeed prejudice against IPs, unfortunately
16:22:24 <ais523> which is pretty silly as there's no reason not to create an account, especially if you're vandalising, so if you don't create an account, it hardly implies anything
16:22:51 <elliott> * (cur | prev) 16:21, 9 November 2010 91.105.90.101 (talk) (8,782 bytes) (I don't think "supporting most of GCC inline assembly" is a *limitation*; it is mentioned in the introduction already, too. Please change this if you disagree, but please don't treat it as vandalism.) (undo)
16:23:06 <ais523> elliott: heh, from your edit summary I can guess the page
16:23:52 <elliott> ais523: now let's see if their Huggle VandalismProtector Automated.NETCrapThatNeverDoesAnythingUseful RevertAnythingThatDeletesMoreThanThreeCharactersAndWasWrittenByAnIPBot can read edit summaries!
16:23:59 <elliott> ais523: hmm, which did you guess? clang?
16:24:14 <elliott> ais523: (p.s. fuck those automated editors, they're worthless and harmful)
16:24:30 <ais523> elliott: indeed, I got the wrong compiler
16:24:57 <ais523> I know, just contributionsed your IP
16:25:17 <ais523> also, igloo is manually attended, thus you should be able to contact its operator to explain
16:25:34 <elliott> I left an irritated-but-sickeningly-polite message on his talk page.
16:25:47 <elliott> ais523: wait, what is this Tag bullshit?
16:25:49 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Tags
16:25:54 <ais523> elliott: if it's any comfort, knee-jerk reactions happen to me too
16:26:10 <ais523> and it's an edit classifier based on simple rules, to help give recent-changes patrollers more info
16:26:14 <elliott> ais523: they have tags just so they can pretend a stupid heuristic can determine vandalism.
16:26:30 <ais523> nope, [[Wikipedia:Tags]] is pretty clear that just because an edit is tagged doesn't mean it's vandalism
16:26:34 <ais523> many people tend to ignore that, for some reason
16:26:54 <elliott> ais523: Recent changes patrollers are *useless*, I know some people I know have messed with (a completely unread and probably-shouldn't-even-exist-in-its-state-really) article voer months and it hasn't been noticed.
16:27:07 <ais523> elliott: they aren't completely useless, but they do miss a lot
16:28:04 <ais523> also, even if he thought your edit was vandalism, he should have tagged it {{uw-b1}}, not {{uw-v1}}
16:28:22 <ais523> but nowadays, RC/NP patrollers are too busy to care about things like that, it seems
16:28:40 <elliott> yeah it was a pretty rude first-time warning.
16:29:01 <elliott> bleh. I only edit wikipedia about stuff *I'd* look up just because it irks me to see the inaccuracies :P
16:29:03 <ais523> uw-v1 is probably the rudest of the first-times, I only use it when it's clear that someone wasn't being constructive
16:29:24 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, "hasn't noticed obscure vandalism" != "useless at reverting vandalism".
16:29:47 <ais523> elliott: you might be interested to know that ClueBot's creator has created ClueBot II, which uses a neural network to detect vandalism
16:29:53 <elliott> Vandalism can be obvious regardless of the page it's on, and articles aren't ordered by length in recent changes.
16:29:58 <ais523> it's claiming a 5% false-positive and 30% false-negative rate
16:30:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm really not interested in the Typical WP Apologist spiel because it's crap.
16:30:54 <ais523> it was approved for trial, but changed to have a 0.25% false positive rate
16:30:57 <elliott> ais523: can you believe it? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Befunge/index.php is generating useful discussion
16:31:08 <elliott> we should adopt this as our new anti-spam technology
16:31:20 <ais523> heh, it was apparently detecting its own reverts as vandalism
16:31:28 <elliott> ais523: whenever a page is vandalised, create an esolang
16:31:53 <ais523> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bots/Requests_for_approval/ClueBot_NG if you're interested
16:32:14 <elliott> I love how NG has replaced 2.
16:32:33 <elliott> hmm, we need a word like "technology" that means the ... cultural context of programming
16:32:36 <elliott> "NG has replaced 2 in technology."
16:32:49 <elliott> "NG has replaced 2 in THE BLOGODODECAHEDRON."
16:32:54 <elliott> "NG has replaced 2 in the coderflurk."
16:33:06 <ais523> <Peter Karlsen> Do you intend keep the target false positive rate at 0.25%? (for editors new to this discussion, that's 0.25% of every edit examined; the number of incorrect reversions will be well over the two and a half per every 1000 rollbacks by the bot that might seem to be indicated by the raw percentage.) If so, then as the dataset improves, the threshold for reversion will simply be lowered to continue to meet 0.25% target, resulting in
16:33:07 <ais523> more vandalism reverted, but new and exciting false positives to replace the ones that have been eliminated. This is why, in the discussion above, I suggested that a 0.1% false positives target would be more conducive to community acceptance of the bot, and ultimate approval.
16:33:19 <ais523> I like the idea of "new and exciting false positives"
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16:33:34 <elliott> ais523: at least someone gets it
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16:34:07 <ais523> the sad thing is, the bot is likely more accurate than human RC patrollers anyway
16:34:39 <elliott> "Thanks I appreciate you reverting vandalism to my talk, but I personally prefer to keep it." --[[User talk:Peter Karlsen]]
16:34:47 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AKoavf&action=historysubmit&diff=393840880&oldid=393840775
16:35:02 <elliott> Doesn't *everyone* want a section titled "hey you idiot" with the text "Why don't you fuck off and leave me alone?" on their talk page?
16:35:18 <elliott> someone added an {{unsigned}} to it
16:35:25 <elliott> after the page owner put it back
16:35:57 <elliott> ais523: why isn't {{unsigned}} part of MediaWiki?
16:36:01 <Phantom_Hoover> [[<elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm really not interested in the Typical WP Apologist spiel because it's crap.]] — WP
16:36:15 <elliott> ais523: OH RIGHT, to allow free-form pages that we're going to regulate away with stupid policy upon policy
16:36:24 <Phantom_Hoover> [[# ^ Oliveira, Rui (2006). The Power of Cobol. City: BookSurge Publishing. ISBN 0620346523. ]] — WP
16:36:34 * elliott wonders why Phantom_Hoover copied that previous one :P
16:36:36 * ais523 wonders if ClueBot NG would just revert anything by comex
16:36:46 <elliott> ais523: does comex vandalise a lot? :P
16:36:53 <ais523> elliott: it was a Bayes reference
16:37:00 <elliott> ais523: that ... beyond obscure
16:37:05 <elliott> ais523: (bayes is its own person!)
16:37:27 <elliott> Gregor: Felix (his name, apparently) replied to my quotes of you!
16:37:33 <elliott> Gregor: I think he's wrong now.
16:37:35 <ais523> as for why {{unsigned}} isn't part of MediaWiki, often you don't want signatures, and technology isn't good enough to work it out always
16:37:39 <Gregor> elliott: Of course he's wrong.
16:37:46 <ais523> SineBot errs on the false-negative side, IIRC
16:38:00 <Gregor> elliott: Judging by his "FAQ", I can only assume his replies are wrong too :P
16:38:20 <elliott> Gregor: http://sprunge.us/iEgP He seems to have basically acknowledged what he said but in a slightly strange way.
16:38:39 <elliott> Gregor: (i.e. not saying it's illegal, but saying that yes, the sources are then GPL-licensed for that purpose)
16:39:54 <elliott> oh, everyone who's not Gregor: you're not allowed to click that link
16:40:09 <Gregor> Yeah, his wording is bizarre but he seems to more-or-less agree. Maybe his confusion is that he thinks that the BSD prevents you from relicensing it under GPL. Or something. Idonno. It doesn't matter though, because whatever his misunderstandings of the GPL are, the license is still the license.
16:40:19 <ais523> elliott: clicking the link does nothing anyway
16:40:31 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, I'd just rather not get him angry if I use it. :P
16:40:41 <elliott> Gregor: I'm thinkin' I'll just use uClibc though. Because... why not?
16:40:43 <ais523> Gregor: I saw someone on Slashdot a while ago arguing that the MIT license banned distributing binaries without source
16:40:59 <Gregor> elliott: But, but it has GNU stuff in it D-8
16:41:04 <ais523> elliott: I'm not sure if he was trolling, or just very confused; I suspect trolling
16:41:20 <Gregor> ais523: I will never cease to be astounded at how license-stupid people are.
16:41:24 <Gregor> It's really not that complicated.
16:42:13 <elliott> Gregor: Is this coherent? [[
16:42:14 <elliott> Indeed, but the BSD license allows relicensing under the GPL, and it doesn't affect the license of the "code itself", just the code as part of the distribution.]]
16:42:26 <elliott> I'm trying to get... well, that, across, but it's difficult to word it.
16:42:33 <Gregor> Putting "code itself" in quotes makes that even more confusing.
16:43:07 <ais523> "You can create your own code based on code licensed under BSD, and license your code under the GPL despite the BSD code in it. That doesn't prevent the original still being BSD, though."
16:43:37 <Gregor> Indeed, but the BSD license is broad enough to allow recipients to relicense the code, even under the GPL. This doesn't affect the original author's grant of the BSD license, it just means that the person linking the BSD code with your GPL code has chosen to relicense the BSD code under GPL for further redistribution.
16:43:39 <ais523> (this is true for BSD3 -> GPL2/3, and BSD4->GPL3)
16:43:47 <elliott> ais523: the code is unmodified, though :)
16:43:48 <Gregor> I started with your wording, but then I went all wonky :P
16:44:00 <elliott> Gregor: I'm stealin' it :P
16:44:02 <ais523> elliott: well, you're still basing what you're doing on that binary
16:44:23 <ais523> I think if I added a BSD binary unmodified to a GPL project, I wouldn't change the copyright notices on it to GPL
16:44:28 <elliott> Sent off a reply, let's hope he doesn't get annoyed :-)
16:44:33 <ais523> even though technically I could
16:44:46 <elliott> You know Gregor, I can't blame people for being license-stupid.
16:44:52 <elliott> Because this shit is retarded.
16:45:00 <elliott> Gregor: Actually I don't see how this doesn't legitimise the CLISP case.
16:46:32 <Gregor> elliott: Because in the CLISP case, you're violating the GPL by compiling your code with the GPL'd interface. CLISP was not under a GPL-compatible license. Admittedly that's shaky ground, I don't think anyone's denying that it's shaky and kinda silly, but there is still a linking of incompatible licenses if you consider the interface to be copyrightable.
16:47:13 <Gregor> If CLISP had been under a GPL-compatible license, and the sum was redistributed under the GPL, it would've been fine. But the binaries were redistributed under a non-GPL license.
16:47:27 <elliott> Gregor: The *binaries* but not the source?
16:48:23 <Gregor> elliott: Redistributing source that no one can redistribute binaries of due to its dependence on libreadline is totally legal, if a bit absurd. Redistributing BINARIES of that source linked to readline, if the binaries can't be redistributed under the GPL, is illegal.
16:49:04 <Gregor> Because the binaries constitute bits of both sources, so need to fall under both licenses.
16:49:29 <elliott> Gregor: I forget, what license was CLISP under at the time?
16:49:44 <elliott> Gregor: it was open, was it not?
16:49:52 <Gregor> I don't think so, actually.
16:50:08 <Gregor> But yeah, I forget. I know it was GPL-incompatible.
16:50:39 <elliott> Gregor: I still don't think that "ld -o z x y" makes x a derivative work of y.
16:51:20 <elliott> Gregor: Same way "ld -o lol core-windows-lib my-code-licensed-under-a-viral-literally-sperm-stealing-license" doesn't compel Bill Gates to open up his testicles and extract their contents.
16:51:25 <elliott> (To use a realistic example.)
16:52:10 <elliott> ais523: wtf is a Researcher
16:52:14 <elliott> [[The 'researcher' group was created in April 2010 to allow individuals explicitly approved by the Wikimedia Foundation to search deleted pages and view deleted history entries without their associated text.]]
16:52:51 <Gregor> elliott: ld -o z x y does not make x a derivative work of y, it makes z a derivative work of y.
16:53:08 <Gregor> elliott: However, its also a derivative work of x, so x and y have to be under compatible licenses.
16:53:30 <Gregor> elliott: And furthermore, y's license indicates that the whole shebang has to be distributed under the GPL, which requires including sources.
16:53:32 <ais523> elliott: it's a very specific usergroup, that's only ever been used once, and is only granted by direct request to the Wikimedia Foundation
16:53:46 <ais523> it shows the histories of deleted pages, but not the deleted revisions themselves
16:54:47 <elliott> ais523: who was it granted to?
16:56:51 <ais523> elliott: I can check if you like
16:56:54 <Gregor> elliott: At no point was the issue CLISP's sources. The issue was always the redistribution of compiled stuff.
16:57:03 <elliott> ais523: I don't mind that much
16:57:04 <ais523> I know the person gets loads of talkpage questions saying "what's a researcher?"
16:57:37 <elliott> Gregor: Okay, what about Bruno's proposed solution: distribute {clisp.o, libnoreadline.a}.
16:57:42 <elliott> Gregor: libnoreadline.a is obviously just a stub out.
16:57:52 <elliott> Gregor: clisp.o is perfectly redistributable. libnoreadline.a too, it's his work.
16:57:58 <elliott> Gregor: Is there anything at all illegal about distributing this?
16:58:49 <Gregor> If he had also written his own noreadline.h, which had an identical interface to readline.h, then it should be legal modulo the fact that copyright law tends to turn fuzzy around the issue of evasion (going out of your way to fake something just to avoid being strictly derivative != not being derivative)
16:59:09 <elliott> Gregor: Stop right there! I'm going to introduce something.
16:59:15 -!- Zuu has joined.
16:59:23 <elliott> Gregor: This is an interface-identical, BSD-licensed reimplementation of readline.
16:59:35 <elliott> Gregor: Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that...
16:59:47 <elliott> Gregor: Stuff using libedit could be counted as derivative of libreadline?
17:00:00 <elliott> (Or editline, whatever, same thing as libedit.)
17:00:27 <Gregor> Well, copyright law is fucky like that. That being said, you're probably in a safer case since editline is actually an implementation, not just a stub to maintain compatibility. It's not really evasion, it's new code.
17:00:48 <elliott> Gregor: libnoreadline would be an implementation... just one for dumb terminals.
17:01:39 <Gregor> You're trying to over-logic copyright law here :P
17:03:01 <elliott> [[ If someone was to turn the readline library into a shared library
17:03:01 <elliott> (a library that is needed at runtime by the executable, but not
17:03:02 <elliott> contained in the executable):
17:03:02 <elliott> Would that mean that any executable that uses a readline
17:03:02 <elliott> shared lib would have to be accompanied with full source?
17:03:09 <elliott> Gregor: imagine a program that dlopens all of /lib and /usr/lib
17:03:27 <elliott> Gregor: It has to be under a license compatible with the licenses of every library on the system.
17:04:38 <Gregor> dlopening != using. Plus I think you're far enough off the issue of evasion there that it's not a big problem. Also the shared-library issue has strictly never been tested in any court anywhere, and probably won't stand up except on the fact that you're still compiling against the interfaces.
17:05:04 <elliott> Gregor: so a minor (legally) technical detail (static vs dynamic) affects the whole legal situation
17:05:22 <elliott> HEY GUYS REMEMBER WHEN WE TRIED TO REGULATE BITS ON COMPUTERS AS IF THEY WERE SCARCE PHYSICAL OBJECTS?
17:05:36 <Gregor> Yeah, copyright law is wildly unsuitable to what it's being used for.
17:05:50 <elliott> <Gregor> Yeah, copyright law is wildly unsuitable[.]
17:06:11 <elliott> iceweasel is the crashiest program ever jesus christ
17:06:47 <Gregor> But it tastes like butterflies.
17:11:52 <elliott> wtf @ iceweasel crashing by the second
17:11:54 -!- sftp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:12:10 -!- sftp_ has joined.
17:18:28 <elliott> ais523: pax is the easiest way to extract cpios, right?
17:20:12 <elliott> oh, cpio seems simple enough
17:25:05 <elliott> ais523: hey, dd/sh can be done without dd!
17:25:36 <elliott> ais523: you need mkfifo, sleep ("optionally"), and kill (I think)
17:25:38 <elliott> ais523: http://shellscripts.org/projects/d/ddprogress/version_1/dd.sh
17:25:47 <elliott> plus rm and chmod, if you're crazy and bloated
17:26:15 <elliott> hmm, didn't realise dd/sh was so old: circa 1999 or older
17:29:17 <Gregor> elliott: That hurts my brain :P
17:30:00 <elliott> Gregor: Have you seen the dd/sh web server? http://dd-sh.intercal.org.uk/web-server/
17:30:05 <elliott> Gregor: It has a configuration file and a MIME database.
17:30:39 <elliott> Gregor: (Admittedly it requires inetd, but come on -- you could use /dev/tcp if you really wanted to.)
17:30:47 <elliott> What is it, "exec 1</dev/tcp/foo"? Something like that.
17:30:51 <elliott> (That's bash-specific, of course.)
17:31:01 <elliott> Wait, or is stdin 0? Bleh.
17:31:18 <elliott> "exec 2>&1" does the obvious.
17:31:37 <elliott> "exec 2>&1" does the obvious.
17:31:59 <Vorpal> <elliott> Your service manager didn't restart it? <-- well, I typed dmesg and it showed some hard lockup thingy then everything crashed (screen went weird).
17:32:15 <elliott> Vorpal: But didn't it restart it?!?!/1111
17:32:45 <Vorpal> elliott, well, arch uses bsd style init
17:33:20 <Vorpal> elliott, find me a good rolling release *linux* distro that isn't gentoo (or other "compile everything yourself)
17:33:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Kitten. (No, seriously, I'm working on it. I am.)
17:33:41 <Vorpal> elliott, was netbsd based
17:33:46 <elliott> Vorpal: NetBSD probably hates my network card.
17:34:19 <elliott> Vorpal: If you want a filthy proprietary graphics card, you may have to rebuild the kernel package to allow modules. :P
17:34:25 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, perhaps you can do like debian and make Kitten/Linux (I doubt it will be gnu linux in your case!), Kitten/BSD and so on
17:34:43 <Vorpal> elliott, and don't forget Kitten/Internix and Kitten/Hurd
17:34:46 <elliott> I wonder what rms wants non-GNU-based Linux distros to be called.
17:35:36 <elliott> Goddamn crazy Firefox ;__;
17:35:38 <Vorpal> "Namoroka is having trouble recovering your windows and tabs. This is usually caused by a recently opened web page." ....
17:35:48 <elliott> I swear to God... I just reopened firefox
17:35:53 <elliott> and by the time I scrolled
17:35:57 <elliott> and it scrolled the Emacs window.
17:36:19 <Vorpal> I wonder which page. Perhaps cr.yp.to. nah that page couldn't crash anything...
17:36:27 <elliott> Vorpal: it says that whenever it crashes
17:36:36 <elliott> i'm not sure why, it never has trouble recovering if you tell it to
17:36:45 <elliott> cr.yp.to? Installing daemontools? :P
17:36:47 <Vorpal> I thought it said it when it couldn't recover proeprly
17:36:56 <Vorpal> elliott, no, I was looking at qmail license stuff
17:37:08 <elliott> Vorpal: It's public domain now.
17:37:20 <elliott> Which is... slightly ... more reassuring than no terms at all.
17:37:41 <elliott> http://cr.yp.to/qmail/toaster.html wish this was an actual toaster.
17:38:02 <elliott> [[What operating systems does qmail support?
17:38:02 <elliott> Answer: qmail works on practically all UNIX systems: AIX, BSD/OS, FreeBSD, HP/UX, Irix, Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, OSF/1, SunOS, Solaris, etc. It automatically adapts itself to new UNIX variants.
17:38:02 <elliott> qmail does not support Windows NT.]]
17:38:36 <elliott> "Why is qmail installed under /var? Aren't programs supposed to be in /usr? Aren't configuration files supposed to be in /etc?
17:38:36 <elliott> Answer: Some sites have clusters of machines that NFS-mount a single /usr disk. Files can't go in /usr unless they are the same on every machine. (This used to be much more common than it is now.) The qmail programs depend on uids that are often different on every machine; for example, the qmail-queue program is setuid qmailq."
17:39:24 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I would blame the, er, interesting, design choices of qmail here
17:39:56 <Vorpal> elliott, like the qmail uids (it uses several) being set at compile time iirc
17:40:01 * elliott considers *not* reinventing the wheel for once in the course of reinventing the wheel
17:40:16 <Vorpal> elliott, hm? what wheel specifically?
17:41:27 <Gregor> Can we take a moment to give mad props to the inventor of the wheel?
17:41:30 <elliott> Vorpal: I might just use https://github.com/ry/http-parser, because it's stupidly fast (hand-written).
17:41:31 <Gregor> 'cuz seriously, that shit pwns.
17:41:34 <elliott> Gregor: No, fuck him, mine is better.
17:42:03 <Gregor> Idonno, sounds kinda like this "sphere" thing I remember hearing about ...
17:42:43 <elliott> Okay, seriously, where does Firefox log crashes?
17:42:43 <Vorpal> elliott, http generally has a quite simple format: <special first line>\r\n[<name>: <value>\r\n, ...]\r\n\r\n
17:42:49 <elliott> Please tell me it logs crashes.
17:42:54 <Vorpal> I mean, not terribly hard to parse by hand
17:42:57 <elliott> Vorpal: ...You think I don't know this?
17:43:04 <elliott> Vorpal: By "hand-written" I mean "insanely optimised hand-written".
17:43:23 <elliott> Vorpal: It refuses to even compare something to two strings if they share a prefix. It'll do the prefix first.
17:43:43 <elliott> Vorpal: No, seriously, it's been benchmarked.
17:43:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Take a look if you don't believe me: https://github.com/ry/http-parser/blob/master/http_parser.c
17:43:58 <Vorpal> elliott, what do you mean "It'll do the prefix first."?
17:44:13 <elliott> it'll compare the string to the prefix, and only then compare against the rest of the string
17:44:17 <elliott> if it wants to recognise foo vs fob
17:44:29 <elliott> rather than the sane thing (compare to foo, compare to fob)
17:44:37 <Vorpal> oh god, several screens of lookup tables...
17:44:48 <Vorpal> how large is the compiled result?
17:45:42 <Vorpal> elliott, well that thing is quite sane
17:48:21 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, that prefix thing is sane. I remember when reading mosaic code it used something like that for HTML tags
17:49:22 <Vorpal> elliott, it would be nice if there was some tool to auto generate that sort of prefix-checking code tree for a number of keywords. Hm chances are one exists already...
17:49:30 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/http-parser$ ls -lh http_parser.o
17:49:30 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 18K Nov 9 17:48 http_parser.o
17:49:30 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/http-parser$ ls -lh http_parser.o
17:49:30 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 16K Nov 9 17:48 http_parser.o
17:49:53 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah that would be nice
17:50:02 <elliott> Vorpal: also something that automated casting to bigger pointer
17:50:31 <Vorpal> elliott, the endianness issues
17:50:48 <Vorpal> yes but it only looks for a 0-byte
17:51:06 <Vorpal> and then looks inside that word to see which one it was
17:51:16 <elliott> So condition on endianness? Not hard.
17:51:33 <Vorpal> elliott, how do you plan to support middle-endian cleanly?
17:51:36 <elliott> fprintf(stderr, "error: ");
17:51:36 <elliott> vfprintf(stderr, format, va);
17:51:36 <elliott> fprintf(stderr, ": %s\n", strerror(errno));
17:51:54 <Gregor> Yeah, supporting middle-endian is worse than not supporting it :P
17:52:07 <Vorpal> elliott, wtf at that code.
17:52:18 <elliott> Vorpal: what's wtf about it apart from the error
17:52:42 <Gregor> elliott: Err, are you trying to print out the thing you failed to print out to describe the error of failing to print it out.....
17:53:02 <elliott> With little endian, casting to a smaller pointer truncates the value.
17:53:10 <Gregor> Little endian is strictly superior. For exactly that reason.
17:53:23 <Vorpal> elliott, it uses fprintf instead of fputs for the first constant string
17:53:27 <elliott> Gregor: The error is, of course, that errno might change.
17:53:32 <elliott> Vorpal: ...that's what jumped out at you?
17:53:38 <Gregor> elliott: Ohduhhhhhhhhhhh X-D
17:53:44 <Gregor> Might and almost assuredly will :P
17:54:09 <Vorpal> elliott, I think errno is a rather stupid idea
17:54:25 <Gregor> This is exactly why it's OK to be racist against global variables.
17:54:28 <Vorpal> return value indicating what error is nicer
17:54:43 <Vorpal> rather than indicating *an* error happened
17:54:48 <Vorpal> so you then need to check errno
17:54:53 <elliott> Vorpal: ITT: multiple return values
17:55:05 <Vorpal> elliott, return (a,b) would be nice
17:55:07 <elliott> Gregor: Globals are fine, just not globals that mutate like *that*.
17:55:19 <Gregor> So, global constants are fine :P
17:55:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Or just pass "errno" as a pointer as the last argument, NULL meaning "I don't care".
17:55:58 <Vorpal> elliott, heck, sometimes dynamic typing is nice. "Returns the length on success, otherwise the tuple (error, atom-indicating-type-of-error)
17:56:19 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah dynamic typing has downsides too of course
17:56:29 <elliott> returns (OK, len) on success
17:56:55 <elliott> /* If a filename is made up of entirely unsafe chars,
17:56:55 <elliott> * the url would be three times its original length.
17:56:55 <elliott> char safe_url[MAXNAMLEN*3 + 1];
17:57:18 <elliott> I should probably get over my C99ophobia.
17:58:27 <elliott> Iam designing a new server which needs to support thousands( somewhere between 100,000 sessions) of udp connections. What is the best polling method to use for socket FD's. I have read that epoll is better than select/poll. Any input or suggestions on which one to use. Thanks."
17:58:33 <elliott> Hundreds of thousands of UDP CONNECTIONS!
17:59:03 <elliott> (Pah @ people suggesting to use libev. That's other people's software, I can't use that!)
17:59:08 <elliott> (All I want is the epoll man page :p)
17:59:49 <Zuu> I always do it locally too
17:59:53 <Vorpal> elliott, VLAs? Avoid unless you are sure that the upper size would fit on stack
18:00:07 <elliott> Vorpal: are you talking about my C99ophobia?
18:00:30 <elliott> Vorpal: i have no real justification for it, and declarations later in the function would be nice
18:00:31 <Vorpal> elliott, well yes, from the context it seemed likely to concern VLAs
18:00:43 <Vorpal> elliott, for (int i ...) is also quite nice :P
18:00:54 <elliott> Vorpal: eww, dunno if i'll ever be able to cope with that
18:01:05 <Gregor> elliott: I always use strict ANSI C89 :P
18:01:09 <Vorpal> elliott, why? Why would int i; at the top be better
18:01:20 <elliott> Vorpal: why would C be better, i'm using c cuz i'm a moron like everyone else
18:01:26 <elliott> Gregor: don't you ever miss declarations later though
18:01:36 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, it pains me.
18:01:44 <Gregor> elliott: But my code compiles on retarded compilers X-P
18:01:45 <Vorpal> elliott, if you have multiple loops in the function that nicely limits *that* i to that loop, Makes code clearer
18:01:46 <elliott> "The cost of a select call goes roughly with the value of the highest numbered file descriptor you pass it. If you select on a single fd, 100, then that's roughly twice as expensive as selecting on a single fd, 50."
18:02:08 <Vorpal> either reusing same i and not using the value from the old iteration. Or having: int i,j,k; at the top?
18:02:31 <elliott> Vorpal: imo c should just reserve ijkl as ints initialised to zero.
18:02:35 <Vorpal> elliott, select() is stupid. Use epoll/kqueue and so on
18:02:45 <Vorpal> wish posix would standardlise *one* of them
18:02:46 <elliott> epoll looks complicated futzy and i'll do it later.
18:03:02 <Vorpal> elliott, poll() is better than select() in general
18:03:35 <Vorpal> elliott, less stupid interface to work with. And on Linux select() maps to poll() in libc iirc.
18:03:47 <Vorpal> though on *bsd it is the other way around iirc
18:04:01 <elliott> The set of file descriptors to be monitored is specified in the fds
18:04:01 <elliott> argument, which is an array of structures of the following form:
18:04:18 <elliott> if i'm going complexity, I'm going to use epoll :)
18:04:25 <Vorpal> elliott, you want to know what fd_set is?
18:04:37 <Vorpal> elliott, and that is what select() uses...
18:04:44 <elliott> Seriously though ... why is selecting a higher fd more expensive.
18:05:19 <elliott> [[Debian 6.0 "Squeeze" will also be accompanied by variants based on the FreeBSD kernel for amd64 and i386 machines, together with the GNU libc and userland as a "technology preview".]]
18:05:28 <Vorpal> elliott, *iirc* because fd_set is like a bitmask or some such. so that fd n means it sets some bit at some offset related to the value of n
18:05:28 <elliott> [[Users of these versions however should be warned that the quality of these ports is still catching up with the outstanding high quality of our Linux ports]] <-- self-congratulatory press releases, yay
18:05:53 <Vorpal> well, more than one bit per fd iirc
18:06:12 <Vorpal> elliott, to indicate monitoring, event, error and so on
18:06:17 <elliott> Gregor: Says the Microsoft dude.
18:06:36 <Gregor> elliott: Exactly why I have the necessary experience to make that statement :P
18:06:56 <elliott> (That's what they do at MS Research all day.)
18:07:12 <Gregor> There's a whole variety of barnyard animals.
18:07:28 <Gregor> Admittedly the goats are usually preferred, but the sheep are right up there too.
18:07:34 <elliott> Gregor: "But you fuck one goat..."
18:08:04 <Gregor> How is it that even Mac OS X's top command is totally fucking useless.
18:08:25 <elliott> Gregor: What's wrong with it?
18:08:26 <Vorpal> Gregor, like normal top?
18:08:28 <Gregor> Its default sorting is by pid.
18:08:30 <elliott> You an htop noob weenie? :P
18:08:51 <Vorpal> elliott, oh Gregor is?
18:09:08 <Vorpal> Gregor, you should be able to change the order
18:09:17 <Gregor> I always use top -o cpu
18:09:25 <Gregor> But the default should not be retarded.
18:09:29 <Vorpal> elliott, but which key in top allow you to attach strace to the process?
18:09:45 <elliott> Vorpal: ^Cattach-strace pid<ENTER>
18:09:51 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah but that is more work
18:09:55 <Vorpal> I use htop because it has nice features normal top doesn't.
18:10:03 <Vorpal> elliott, why do you hate htop?
18:10:16 <Gregor> elliott just doesn't like to top.
18:10:26 <elliott> Gregor: Implement bottom(1). Now.
18:10:43 <elliott> Gregor: It connects to a top(1) process.
18:11:17 <Gregor> elliott: It "receives" data from a top(1) process, shall we say.
18:11:29 <Vorpal> wtf, texlive-core-2010.20288-1 is 103 MB?
18:11:43 <Vorpal> large yes, but over 100 MB?
18:11:47 <elliott> Gregor: Yes. It receives packets. Over and over.
18:11:53 <elliott> Gregor: And processes them.
18:12:06 <elliott> Vorpal: The entirety of TeX Live is a few gibibytes.
18:12:22 <Vorpal> elliott, It grown since the first version
18:12:27 <Gregor> elliott: Its interface is kinda painful to use, but only at first. You get used to it.
18:12:38 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, I was pretty sure texlive was a few hundred MB in *total*
18:12:43 <Vorpal> and core was like 60 MB
18:13:03 <Vorpal> here we go *installs updates*
18:13:09 <elliott> Gregor: If your network device is in promiscuous mode, you can attach it to multiple top(1)s at once.
18:13:17 <elliott> Vorpal: no, it's always been gigs
18:13:29 <Vorpal> both texlive updates and openoffice updates I see...
18:15:50 <fizzie> I just had an occasion to install TeX Live on OS X (well, MACTeX or whatever they call it; it's TeX Live 2010 anyway) and the download .mpkg.zip was around 1.5 GiB; I think it unpacked to 2.7 GiB or something.
18:18:59 <elliott> Aha -- it is Flash that is crashing.
18:27:16 <elliott> Worst httpd name: ritalin! It calms down the hypertext (transfer protocol).
18:27:32 <elliott> (To boot, it's probably not very allowed to use that name.)
18:30:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's called Squeeze.
18:30:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's the in-development release.
18:30:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Right now, no new features are being added.
18:30:30 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.cobolportal.com/index.asp?bhcp=1 I am suddenly deathly afraid.
18:30:33 <elliott> And if you think software isn't that buggy, ha ha ha.
18:30:39 <Phantom_Hoover> “COBOL Under .NET: An Easy Evolution” AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGH
18:30:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: After Squeeze is released, testing will change name to whatever the next Debian release will be called, and you will start receiving new features.
18:31:11 <elliott> Things may break! But not very much; unstable (sid) is what gets all the breakage, and then the stuff that works filters down into testing.
18:31:20 <elliott> (stable itself is always a few years out of date.)
18:31:31 <elliott> (Well, a few months to two years. Still.)
18:31:58 <fizzie> Call it "methyl-phenyl(piperidin-2-yl)acetated"; I doubt they can restrict the use of the IUPAC systematic-name.
18:32:38 <fizzie> It's because of the B, one would think.
18:33:10 <elliott> fizzie: Because of the... B?
18:35:57 <fizzie> Or is the whole "Business-Oriented" bit a backronym? So many things are; I don't think that was, though.
18:37:31 <Phantom_Hoover> So, we must now ask a difficult question. Will murdering Sgeo assist the death of COBOL?
18:37:46 <elliott> No. But let's pretend it will!
18:37:50 <elliott> (Note: I do not think we actually should)
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18:41:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Even those whiny little gits at Amnesty won't be able to complain!
18:51:19 * Gregor 's Anglo-Jewish blood is boiling.
18:53:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, is that Jews from England, or was one of your parents Jewish and the other English (or variations thereon).
18:53:50 <elliott> Gregor: Who said you could speak, Jew?!
18:54:06 <Gregor> My father's family is English, my mother's mother's family is English, my mother's father's family is Ashkenazi Jewish.
18:54:35 <elliott> But the important thing is that they're all Jews! Also, unwashed!
18:54:44 <Phantom_Hoover> That's a variation on the latter, unless your mother's father was also English.
18:55:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, did you come over from England when you were born or something?
18:55:17 <Gregor> No, my family is totally American, I'm just talking about heritage :P
18:55:19 <elliott> No. He was born in Jewland.
18:56:00 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: It's the Wertheimer family, which is an Ashkenazi Jewish family via England. So they're Anglo in locale but Ashkenazi by race or something. But locale is irrelevant since I'm just talking about heritage here :P
18:56:50 <Gregor> Something like that, yeah.
18:57:05 * Phantom_Hoover beats Gregor over the head with bagpipes, plays haggis at him and feeds him a claymore.
18:57:22 <Gregor> The only things I got from the Jewish side of my family are my nose, my money sense, and my keen sense of Jewish stereotypes.
18:58:54 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: But since the Irish are technically Scots, that's kinda boring.
18:59:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And GAY! And a VAMPIRE!
18:59:16 <Gregor> Oh, is it that way 'round?
18:59:57 <Phantom_Hoover> The Scots were some Irishmen who thought "hey, maybe we should go to Scotland! It'll be so cool!"
19:00:38 <elliott> [[The MIPS-X was a processor supported by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency. The Programmer's Manual for this chip describes an HSC (Halt and Spontaneously Combust) instruction, that is only found in a version of the processor designed for the National Security Agency.[7] The manual entry is a joke, and does not describe a genuine feature of the CPU.]]
19:00:41 <elliott> Someone got shot at dawn for that one!
19:04:06 <elliott> [[Because some people consider "Not a typewriter" to be a confusing message some systems display a different confusing message such as "Inappropriate ioctl for device" instead.]] --Wikipedia
19:04:29 <elliott> "...the leftover ENOTTY will result in an utterly inappropriate "Not a typewriter" (or "Not a teletype", or "Inappropriate ioctl for device") being delivered to the flabbergasted user." --Wikipedia
19:05:53 <olsner> should be "Not a teapot"
19:07:25 <Gregor> "Antimammic input detected"
19:07:41 <elliott> just getting that out there
19:08:30 <olsner> I think you just hate everything
19:08:39 <elliott> olsner: in my defence, everything sucks.
19:08:48 <elliott> olsner: or at least, 90% is a vast underestimation
19:08:53 <elliott> Sturgeon wasn't one for figures.
19:09:16 <olsner> even if something sucks it may not deserve to be hated
19:09:37 <elliott> olsner: give me a reason not to hate berkeley sockets :)
19:11:26 <olsner> elliott: give me a reason to hate them
19:11:47 <elliott> olsner: it sucks major ass
19:12:19 <olsner> well, so does everything else :)
19:12:34 <elliott> olsner: plan 9's sockets are nice
19:13:14 <olsner> elliott: hmm, what do they do differently?
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19:14:07 <olsner> hmm, plan9 has the /dev/tcp/host/port thingy don't they?
19:14:30 <elliott> well, it's not called that, and it's a lot more sophisticated than just jamming hosts and ports in (it has a ctl file and stuff)
19:14:41 <elliott> olsner: but here's the C api: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/2/dial
19:15:17 <elliott> olsner: (the examples are a bit outdated :))
19:17:54 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, hey, if I got an Olde-Fashionede mechanical typewriter and set it up so that I pressed the keys and the computer controlled the hammers...
19:17:54 <elliott> #define writes(fd, s) write(fd, s, sizeof(s)-1)
19:17:54 <elliott> #define writeu(fd, s) write(fd, s, strlen(s))
19:20:36 <olsner> elliott: looking good, looking good
19:20:57 <olsner> buggy with the normal write function of course...
19:23:50 <elliott> olsner: only as buggy as fwrite
19:25:43 <olsner> as buggy as the thing it wraps yes
19:26:27 <elliott> olsner: uhh, what i'm saying is
19:26:35 <elliott> olsner: fwrite can also write <n chars
19:26:45 <elliott> so it's not really a problem
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19:30:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Have a complex algorithm to work out if we need to do so?
19:31:28 <olsner> elliott: hmm, not a problem? but how do you finish the job with those macros?
19:32:10 <elliott> olsner: int n = 0; while ((n += writeu(fd, s)) < strlen(s));
19:32:17 <elliott> olsner: of course, you don't have to do this unless fd is a socket.
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19:34:31 <elliott> olsner: or for a constant string,
19:34:44 <elliott> int n = 0; while ((n += writes(fd, s)) < sizeof(s)-1);
19:34:59 <elliott> olsner: of course, if either returns *0* you're probably in trouble, but just write a damn function.
19:37:48 <olsner> that'll write the beginning of the string over and over :)
19:38:51 <elliott> olsner: int n = 0; while ((n += writes(fd, s+n)) < sizeof(s)-1);
19:39:06 <olsner> but sizeof(s+n) = sizeof(char*)
19:39:37 <elliott> olsner: if A is a constant array with elements of types T, of size N, then sizeof(A) = N*sizeof(T).
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19:40:05 <olsner> but adding an array and an int produces a pointer, not an array section or something like that :)
19:40:05 <elliott> olsner: sizeof(char) = 1 by definition, thus sizeof(S) where S is an array of chars (such as being a literal string) is the length of the string S, plus one (for the zero byte)
19:40:33 <elliott> olsner: use writeu instead
19:40:44 <elliott> and incur the penalty of 3458934934589 strlens
19:41:10 <elliott> olsner: hate to say it, but
19:41:14 <elliott> writes(2, "abc\n"+1); works :)
19:42:42 <elliott> olsner: now i get to write void writed(int fd, int n)
19:43:02 <elliott> olsner: (so apparently sizeof("abc"+1) = 2, who'da thunk it? I guess?)
19:43:58 <elliott> olsner: #define writesi(fd, s, i) write(fd, s+i, sizeof(s)-i-1)
19:44:43 <olsner> something like -(- sizeof s) could work
19:46:27 <olsner> s = "abc"+1 => -(-sizeof "abc"+1) = -(-4+1) = 3
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19:47:20 <elliott> olsner: You are a bad person and I hate you.
19:47:48 <elliott> olsner: (Seriously. You are awful.)
19:47:49 <olsner> I'll just go ahead and take that as a compliment
19:49:04 <elliott> $ file -i httpd.c | cut -d' ' -f2-
19:49:04 <elliott> text/x-c; charset=us-ascii
19:49:14 <elliott> it even handles directories!
19:49:18 <elliott> application/x-directory; charset=binary
19:50:13 <olsner> there's a mime type for directories?
19:50:22 <elliott> olsner: "x-", so no, not really.
19:51:16 <olsner> sure it's not "x-director"? :)
19:51:53 <olsner> (google is so sure you're wrong it just goes ahead and googles something different for you)
19:52:46 <elliott> http://www.google.com/search?q=x-directory&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:unofficial&client=iceweasel-a#hl=en&client=iceweasel-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:unofficial&&sa=X&ei=b6bZTJbjCOaV4gbn2qS8CA&ved=0CBEQvgUoAA&q=%2B%22application/x-directory%22&nfpr=1&fp=8ec2bc6eb6ca6ae0
19:53:12 <elliott> what an ugly url, also including my previous search, nice privacy violation
19:54:13 <olsner> there should be a "link to this search" address or something
19:55:03 <elliott> olsner: or just sane urls always
19:55:12 <elliott> say... http://google.com/search?q=foo+bar+baz
19:56:02 <olsner> yeah, they could just use cookies for all the crud
19:57:38 <elliott> olsner: or not have the crud at all (why does my browser matter? why are you putting "utf-8" there, what is that even for? &aq=t???)
19:58:22 <olsner> your a-queue is t, obviously
20:05:26 <elliott> olsner: char buf[LOG10(MAX_UINT)];
20:05:29 <elliott> (((n) >= 1000000000) ? 9 : ((n) >= 100000000) ? 8 : ((n) >= 10000000) ? 7 : \
20:05:29 <elliott> ((n) >= 1000000) ? 6 : ((n) >= 100000) ? 5 : ((n) >= 10000) ? 4 : \
20:05:29 <elliott> ((n) >= 1000) ? 3 : ((n) >= 100) ? 2 : ((n) >= 10) ? 1 : 0))
20:05:40 <elliott> admittedly, that fails for >32-bit :)
20:08:47 <olsner> elliott: what am I looking at? :)
20:09:01 <elliott> olsner: me trying to write a writeud function
20:09:11 <elliott> olsner: and failing because of my aversion to malloc
20:09:26 <elliott> should actually be LOG10(MAX_UINT)+1 heh
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20:09:50 <olsner> and writeud here is essentially printf's %u?
20:09:51 <Gregor> elliott: You should do clever things with sizeof instead.
20:10:05 <Gregor> elliott: sizeof(int) >= 10 -> at least 4
20:10:20 <elliott> Gregor: Now make it handle every possible bit size :P
20:10:27 <olsner> something like 1+sizeof(int)*8*ceil(log10/log2)
20:10:32 <Gregor> elliott: Yours doesn't handle every possible bit size.
20:10:37 <Gregor> elliott: But mine at least doesn't overflow in weird ways.
20:11:02 <Gregor> elliott: You could write mine for up to 65,536-bit words and still not overflow on any reasonable system :P
20:11:15 <elliott> Gregor: All I need is f such that f(n) >= floor(log_10(2^n))+1 and !(f(n) much greater than that)
20:11:52 <olsner> or just use (iirc) 22 which is big enough for 64 bits
20:11:52 <Gregor> I seem to recall using sizeof(bleh)/3 for that. It's over, but not a lot over.
20:12:00 <Gregor> Erm, sizeof in bits rather
20:12:24 <Gregor> There's no real logic to that though ^^
20:12:29 <elliott> Gregor: sizeof in bits, i.e. 2^sizeof(x) / 3? :P
20:12:41 <Gregor> ... no, sizeof in bits is sizeof*8
20:13:55 <elliott> Gregor: Now give me that for arbitrary base n! Mwahahaurk.
20:14:23 <Gregor> floor(log(base)/log(2))
20:14:36 <elliott> Gregor: I doubt my compiler will accept that as an array size :-)
20:14:40 <elliott> Gregor: ...also, log(10) you mean.
20:14:48 <Gregor> base is your arbitrary base 'n'
20:15:26 <elliott> Gregor: so is sizeof(n)*8 / 3 approximating the log10 or the log10+1?
20:15:36 <Gregor> You need to add 1 after that.
20:15:47 <Gregor> Assuming you want some pussy null termination :P
20:16:07 <olsner> and don't forget space for the sign if you're doing signed ints
20:17:31 <Gregor> I think that the fact that this reliably overestimates actually makes it OK? Maybe? Idonno, I think adding 1 is all you need ... Idonno, it would take me a while to actually remember the algebraic reason why this is OK :P
20:18:44 <elliott> Gregor: Err, for a 64-bit integer it gives back 21. Allow me to remind you that the actual value in question is 10.
20:18:58 <Gregor> Uh, the value for a 32-bit integer is 10.
20:19:19 <Gregor> The minimum for 64 is 20 IIRC?
20:19:58 <Gregor> So you waste one byte, and really more due to alignment anyway, so who cares :P
20:20:13 <elliott> Gregor: I'm going to start writing to the array at the end, and then note how far we are from the start of the array, and increment it by that when printing.
20:22:01 <olsner> so the 22 I remembered must be for a signed 64-bit integer: 20, plus one for null, and another one for the sign
20:23:28 <elliott> Gregor: Wait, (UINT_MAX*8) = obvious error.
20:23:42 <elliott> Gregor: ...right, that X-D
20:23:55 <elliott> i was dropped on my head as a baby
20:26:25 <elliott> Gregor: unfortunately, now i have to deal with the fact that it calls write without returning the buffer and thus on a socket... :P
20:27:20 <Gregor> Hell, even on 64-bit systems they're wildly wrong.
20:27:21 <elliott> Gregor: they're guaranteed to work! just not make sense
20:27:40 <elliott> as long as sizeof(x) == sizeof(y *)
20:27:43 <Gregor> They will have a definable semantics, but casting back and forth could lose data, let's go with that :P
20:27:51 <olsner> using u/intptr_t should be perfectly valid
20:28:02 <elliott> (X *)((intptr_t) ptr_to_X) == ptr_to_X
20:28:06 <elliott> (X *)((uintptr_t) ptr_to_X) == ptr_to_X
20:28:08 <elliott> that's all you can rely on :P
20:28:13 <Gregor> olsner: Real men call it size_t/ptrdiff_t
20:28:24 <olsner> Gregor: but those aren't pointer sized
20:28:30 <elliott> Gregor: size_t is not guaranteed to be pointer-sized
20:28:33 <elliott> olsner: ptrdiff_t is i think
20:28:50 <Gregor> wtf, no, size_t is pointer-sized, that's the whole point.
20:29:27 <elliott> Gregor: Am I a terrible person if I use a switch statement to do the equivalent of buf[i--] = "0123456789"[d]?
20:29:53 <olsner> size_t may be smaller than the size of a pointer, but you can't allocate objects larger than size_t :)
20:29:53 <elliott> Gregor: Amn't it great, though?
20:30:25 <olsner> e.g. because addresses and offsets have different sizes in your architecture, or there's some kind of segmentation going on
20:31:23 <olsner> I suspect something similar applies to ptrdiff_t - not sure it's well-defined to take a difference between pointers into different objects
20:32:28 <Gregor> Screw it, we all know how real systems work :P
20:35:22 <olsner> elliott: d["0123456789"] :)
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20:35:57 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, commutativity of indexing is the most overlooked awesomeness in C.
20:36:24 <Gregor> Depends on types though.
20:36:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it is not overlooked it is well known
20:37:00 <elliott> Gregor: zeta c would have different ptrdiff_t to others i think
20:37:17 <elliott> Gregor: (int)ptr was actually an address to a cons cell
20:37:28 <elliott> so (foo *)(((int)ptr)+1) definitely wouldn't work
20:37:56 <elliott> Gregor: http://lists.tunes.org/archives/lispos/1997-June/001659.html
20:38:04 <elliott> Gregor: also ints were bignums :)
20:38:48 <Gregor> I suppose if your ints are bignums, maybe you can store infinity in them :P
20:38:50 <elliott> Gregor: (Did it even have sizeof?)
20:39:03 <elliott> Gregor: infinity isn't two's complement
20:45:27 <elliott> From the editor who reverted my constructive Wikipedia edit as vandalism and gave me a harsh warning on my talk page, merely because I edited anonymously: "I also suggest you create an account if you feel stigmatized for not having one."
20:46:14 <olsner> that's a little like, "I also suggest you change your ethnicity if you feel stigmatized for your current one."
20:46:46 <Gregor> No, that's more like "I also suggest you change your religion if you feel stigmatized for your current one."
20:46:52 <Gregor> Religion, as account status, is a choice.
20:46:56 <Gregor> Many people make a poor choice.
20:46:58 <elliott> olsner: Yeah, I was gonna use being gay, but I thought he'd reply "well being gay isn't a choice!", thus completely missing the point (and also marginalising any gay people who may have even decided to become gay).
20:47:07 <elliott> And I stigmatise religious people, so I can't use that one :)
20:47:11 <elliott> (That's because they're idiots though.)
20:47:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DC#My_edit_to_Tiny_C_Compiler
20:47:55 <elliott> I would be less annoyed if he had used a milder warning like he's supposed to, but he went straight in for the "your edit was vandalism stop it" one.
20:48:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I still must say that I sympathise a little with the bureaucrats here.
20:48:21 <Gregor> elliott: Your argument is complete bullshit in the context of getting a Wikipedia account :P
20:48:40 <Gregor> elliott: Especially since having an account in no way makes you non-anonymous.
20:48:41 <elliott> Gregor: I just want to make him feel bad really.
20:48:48 <elliott> Gregor: Yes it does; it ties all my edits together.
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20:49:02 <Gregor> elliott: So does your IP, only if you're sneaking from IP to IP are they detached.
20:49:38 <elliott> Gregor: Besides, people find it easier to remember "quixj" than 192.168.29.42.
20:49:39 <Phantom_Hoover> And tying your edits together is something you don't want happening?
20:49:49 <elliott> Gregor: Also, I find it an unacceptable barrier to entry; I dislike Wikipedia enough already and if they'd prefer bureaucracy over me fixing up the crap formatting and inaccuracy I'd be happy not to edit.
20:50:07 <elliott> What I *don't* accept is having all my edits marked as vandalism because I'm an IP, especially as the *good* vandals make accounts to avoid precisely that anyway.
20:50:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I am uninterested in the culture of vane egoism and insane bureaucracy that the non-encyclopedia side of Wikipedia revels in.
20:51:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, then just don't engage with it. It's hardly a requirement to have an account.
20:51:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: We can continue along me naming all the reasons I don't want an account and you dismissing them for all eternity, or you could just shut up about it.
20:52:03 <elliott> Perhaps they should disable anonymous editing if they really don't care about anonymous contributors at all.
20:52:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I brought this up after me and ais523 collectively whinged about the idiocy earlier. ais523 logreads.
20:53:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I just find it laughable that you feel I should shut up when I was only responding to you.
20:53:36 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I wish to spectate.
20:53:37 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> I still must say that I sympathise a little with the bureaucrats here.
20:53:54 <Gregor> elliott: What's your compiler, btw?
20:54:01 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> From the editor who reverted my constructive Wikipedia edit as vandalism and gave me a harsh warning on my talk page, merely because I edited anonymously: "I also suggest you create an account if you feel stigmatized for not having one."
20:54:02 <Phantom_Hoover> <olsner> that's a little like, "I also suggest you change your ethnicity if you feel stigmatized for your current one."<elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DC#My_edit_to_Tiny_C_Compiler
20:54:02 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> I would be less annoyed if he had used a milder warning like he's supposed to, but he went straight in for the "your edit was vandalism stop it" one.
20:54:09 <Gregor> For Tigress or Pumette or whatever your system is
20:54:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I did not address it to you, I addressed it implicitly to ais523-logreading.
20:54:33 <elliott> Notice all the other people in the channel who said nothing.
20:54:34 <olsner> religion is probably a slightly better analogy though
20:54:53 <Phantom_Hoover> And I responded, since, you know, that's kind of the point of IRC.
20:54:58 <Gregor> (I'm referring to Kitten of course :P )
20:55:17 <Phantom_Hoover> If you want to have a one-to-one chat, do it in a PM or email.
20:55:18 <elliott> Gregor: Not sure; pcc is the most likely candidate, as it rawks.
20:55:30 <elliott> Gregor: (gcc is available for all those crappy programs. I will answer more questions after brbing :P)
21:00:31 <Gregor> elliott: How 'bout icc :P
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21:26:18 <Vorpal> elliott, what about clang?
21:26:35 <Gregor> elliott: How 'bout ... OpenWatcom?
21:29:01 <elliott> Gregor: Yeahno (to both) :P
21:29:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Big, and I'm not sure how good it is with static linking.
21:31:12 <elliott> Vorpal: (As always, it'll be in a package.)
21:32:38 <Gregor> elliott: At least pcc has no GNU-derived code. uClibc still disgusts me on the ground that it includes a tad bit of GNU-derived code. But then, my desires to see a no-GNU Linux (see; not use) shouldn't really influence your desire to make whatever it is you'rem aking :P
21:33:05 <elliott> Gregor: Linux is GPL and therefore GNU!
21:33:23 <Gregor> My statement about having no [L]GPL code was a joke :P
21:34:13 <elliott> that's what my lesbian step-other-mother said
21:35:31 <elliott> Gregor: I could always write MY OWN LIBC
21:35:40 <elliott> Gregor: (What about Android's bionic libc?)
21:35:45 <elliott> That's not quite complete, but...
21:35:47 <Gregor> That's actually feasible.
21:35:53 <elliott> Gregor: Not quite, without modifications :P
21:35:58 <elliott> Gregor: The stali folk are looking into it.
21:36:02 <Gregor> I mean feasible as a starting point.
21:37:12 <elliott> Gregor: I'd have to split every function into a separate file, though :-)
21:37:42 <Gregor> That's, like, .a-libc-101
21:38:11 <elliott> Gregor: Is bionic .a? I don't know :P
21:38:28 <Gregor> Oh, I guess it shouldn't be X-D
21:38:34 <Gregor> Never mind, not sure why I thought that.
21:40:39 <elliott> Gregor: CLEARLY I SHOULD USE GLIBC
21:40:50 <elliott> Gregor: Because using dlopen() to do locales is a fan-fucking-tastic idea.
21:41:54 <elliott> Gregor: Ha, one of Ulrich "Asshole" Drepper's arguments against static linking: [[#
21:41:54 <elliott> no accidental violation of the (L)GPL. Should a program which is statically linked be given to a third party, it is necessary to provide the possibility to regenerate the program code.]]
21:41:55 <olsner> eh, locales? just use C for everything!
21:41:59 <elliott> Gregor: COULD THE WATER GET ANY MURKIER
21:44:52 <olsner> also, if you use function-sections you get the size benefits of manually splitting every single function into a separate file, without having to actually do it
21:45:16 <olsner> afaik android links bionic dynamically, btw
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21:45:26 <elliott> Gregor: I'm not sure yet what coreutils to use. I could port a BSD's (fun, but time consuming), use Heirloom (I don't really want to; I have no nostalgia for those tools), use Busybox (really nice, but I don't really want coreutils to be one binary, and some of the busybox utils are limited), [option I've forgotten that I'm trying to remember now], or cobble my own together from David Parson's bin repository and other crap (way too time consuming)
21:45:46 <elliott> <olsner> also, if you use function-sections you get the size benefits of manually splitting every single function into a separate file, without having to actually do it
21:45:51 <elliott> olsner: i doubt non-gcc support that
21:46:01 <olsner> then don't bother with non-gcc?
21:46:18 <Gregor> elliott: I thought busybox had an option to do multi-binary, just an unpopular one? I also thought busybox was TAINTED with GNUTUDE.
21:46:39 <elliott> Gregor: (1) Yes, but I have a feeling they'd end up sharing a lot of code as I bet it's not coded for, and (2) really?
21:46:52 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BusyBox says nothing about GNUfart.
21:47:00 <Gregor> Not all of it, but some utilities.
21:47:10 <elliott> olsner: Au contraire, I'm not bothering with gcc.
21:47:14 <elliott> Gregor: Citation needed :P
21:47:39 <olsner> elliott: hmm, ok, then you may need to select toolchain carefully or split it up in separate .o files :/
21:47:51 <elliott> olsner: it's not that hard to split up .c files...
21:48:01 <elliott> uClibc does it (well, 99% certain :-))
21:48:28 <elliott> Gregor: Hey, I can avoid OpenSSL! Sweet!
21:48:54 <Gregor> Presumably avoiding noodles too?
21:48:57 <elliott> Gregor: Well, most things also do gnutls, and I'm not using OpenSSH.
21:49:16 <Gregor> gnutls == noodles == GNU :P
21:49:18 <elliott> Gregor: avo...nood..wh lawl
21:49:34 <elliott> Gregor: Well, true, but OpenSSL is really just terrible.
21:50:08 <elliott> Gregor: You're meant to say "No OpenSSH? WHAT IS THIS MADNESS?".
21:50:33 <Gregor> Noodles is the perfect argument about libnoreadline.
21:50:50 <elliott> Gregor: Your... mother is the perfect argument about libnoreadline.
21:50:50 <Gregor> It's only evasion when it's the GPL? What's this bullshit?
21:51:06 <elliott> gnutls is actually api-compatible?
21:51:30 <elliott> Gregor: We need an OpenSSL lawyer to demand GNU relicense gnutls under their license.
21:51:32 <Gregor> It's SLIGHTLY API-compatible.
21:51:49 <elliott> <elliott> Gregor: You're meant to say "No OpenSSH? WHAT IS THIS MADNESS?".
21:52:30 <elliott> Gregor: GIVE IN TO THE BAIT
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21:53:12 <olsner> Gregor? WHAT IS THIS MADNESS?
21:53:20 <pikhq> Readline's licensing is an amazing exercise in stupid.
21:53:29 <elliott> pikhq: The true solution is to never use the GPL ever :P
21:53:30 <pikhq> "It's API compatible thus you must relicense as GPL".
21:53:53 <pikhq> elliott: Or just beat the FSF with a cluebat from time to time.
21:53:58 <elliott> pikhq: Except they're probably right.
21:54:14 <pikhq> elliott: ... In this case, *how*?
21:54:27 <elliott> Ask Gregor, I would go insane explaining it.
21:54:39 <pikhq> Gregor: Please tell me there's logic behind it.
21:54:45 <elliott> pikhq: No, it's copyright law.
21:54:53 <elliott> No logic, but the FSF is right.
21:55:12 <elliott> so Gregor ASK ME WHY I DON'T HAVE OPENSSH
21:55:28 <elliott> so Gregor DON'T ASK ME WHY I DON'T HAVE OPENSSH
21:55:48 <elliott> Gregor: If you ask me why I don't have OpenSSH I won't answer; otherwise I will
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21:56:11 <pikhq> elliott: I'm going with "Something else is better".
21:56:21 <elliott> Gregor: I don't use OpenSSH because!!!!! (ask question to continue)
21:57:02 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, if you don't like WP's bureaucracy, Citizendium's must be seen to be believed.
21:57:03 <oklopol> Gregor: could you please ask him
21:57:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I have seen and believed.
21:57:19 <elliott> oklopol: my wounds are from my razor blade
21:57:28 <elliott> i could stop stabbing myself
21:57:53 <olsner> stabbing his intestines, obviously
21:57:57 <Sasha> donated blood today
21:58:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: FOR MY PAIN
21:59:23 <elliott> Gregor: ASK OR MY WOUNDS WILL TRANSMIGRATE INTO YOUR SOUL
22:00:32 <elliott> Gregor don't have deal with devil. Gregor BE devil.
22:01:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I always suspected the devil would be one of those backstabbing ENGLISHMEN.
22:01:43 <elliott> Gregor: I can remove your Jewry if you ask the question.
22:08:15 <olsner> "transmigrate"? if trans means something about moving, isn't that already implied by migration?
22:08:59 <elliott> olsner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation
22:09:08 <elliott> trans·mi·grate/transˈmīgrāt/Verb
22:09:09 <elliott> 1. (of the soul) Pass into a different body after death.
22:09:10 <olsner> your wounds will reincarnate?
22:09:35 <elliott> olsner: additional meaning: 3. (of Prime Intellect) Take longer to be written than Duke Nukem forever.
22:10:30 <olsner> ah, 'trans' seems to have an ever so slightly more specific meaning than just motion
22:11:20 <olsner> oh, nm, it was supposed to do that
22:13:10 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:14:29 <elliott> `addquote <olsner> OMG ITS BOILING <olsner> oh, nm, it was supposed to do that
22:17:40 <elliott> what has my system NOT got
22:24:38 <elliott> pikhq: How about I just tell you instead :P
22:25:05 <elliott> pikhq: Dropbear roolz OpenSSH droolz
22:26:02 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if there's a program so simple that noöne can argue over which version is best.
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22:27:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: mu; gnu can make the simplest program huge
22:28:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it responds to --help and --version. it is some 50 lines long
22:28:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: gnu false is a define and then -- i shit you not
22:28:58 <pikhq> Dropbear is pretty awesome.
22:29:33 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, that makes the rhetoric in the GNU design advice about not following standards belligerently hilarious.
22:30:02 <elliott> $ ls -lh $(which true) $(which false)
22:30:03 <elliott> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 21K Apr 28 2010 /bin/false
22:30:03 <elliott> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 21K Apr 28 2010 /bin/true
22:31:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/src/true.c
22:31:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BEHOLD GNU TRUE
22:31:32 <elliott> olsner: you too. behold it
22:31:43 <elliott> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/src/false.c
22:31:51 <olsner> I'm almost afraid to watch
22:32:02 <elliott> olsner: it has LOCALISED STRINGS
22:32:04 <fizzie> It's important to get translations and --help --version working properly there.
22:32:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: $(which true) --help
22:32:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: true is also a shell built-in.
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22:32:48 <Sgeo> elliott, read http://qntm.org/artwar . Imagine me in that situation.
22:33:18 <fizzie> strings /bin/true says the binary ends up having strings like "A NULL argv[0] was passed through an exec system call." and "memory exhausted".
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22:34:28 <olsner> comes with all of "Written by %s.", "Written by %s and %s." and "Written by %s, %s, and %s." :)
22:35:08 <olsner> evidently it can dynamically change its number of authors, useful extra feature for a utility that should just exit with no error
22:35:16 <fizzie> All the way up to: "Written by %s, %s, %s, %s, %s, %s, %s, %s, %s, and others."
22:36:13 <elliott> <olsner> evidently it can dynamically change its number of authors, useful extra feature for a utility that should just exit with no error
22:36:16 <elliott> NO IT CAN ALSO EXIT WITH FAILURE
22:36:35 <olsner> that's a different utility, I'm looking through 'true' here
22:36:40 <elliott> olsner: look at the header
22:36:45 <elliott> olsner: true.c implements false
22:36:54 <elliott> olsner: false.c just defines EXIT_STATUS to be EXIT_FAILURE, and then does #include "true.c"
22:36:58 <Sgeo> Anyone want to tell elliott that he's missing out on imagining me in pain?
22:37:00 <olsner> elliott: true, the binary damnit
22:37:18 <elliott> <elliott> int main() { return 1; }
22:37:20 <Phantom_Hoover> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH
22:37:21 <elliott> note: this doesn't work on VMS :-)
22:37:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: COBOLUTILS?
22:37:34 <Phantom_Hoover> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa
22:37:51 <olsner> elliott: returning one from main usually means something like returning to the CRT bootstrap code that calls exit() with the return value of main
22:37:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, my guts are on the floor. COBOL is the least of my problems.
22:38:07 <elliott> olsner: on VMS, 1 is not exit failure
22:38:12 <elliott> it should be {return EXIT_FAILURE;}
22:38:18 <elliott> (EXIT_SUCCESS is defined to be 0 on all platforms)
22:38:25 <Sgeo> You are all officially more COBOL-obsessed than I am
22:38:27 <olsner> oh, and "one" is actually a placefolder for "a value" there
22:38:30 <Sgeo> Which isn't particularly hard
22:38:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, actually, the image of you seeing AW burn amuses me terribly.
22:39:12 <elliott> olsner: I can't understand you :P
22:39:38 <olsner> elliott: my point is that even a main that simply returns will result in a HUGE binary
22:40:00 <elliott> olsner: http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html :P
22:40:19 <elliott> olsner: (doesn't work with newer linux kernels)
22:41:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, he did 42.
22:41:23 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:41:41 <elliott> s/mov bl, 42/xor bl, bl/ for true and and s/42/1/ for false.
22:41:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/true.asm.txt
22:42:27 <Sgeo> Is elliott somehow ignoring all lines that contain Sgeo now?
22:43:06 <olsner> $ ./test2; echo $?; stat test2
22:43:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, where did you find the link to true.asm.txt?
22:43:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: file without shebang = interpreted by shell
22:43:39 <elliott> shell executes all 0 commands, exits successfully.
22:43:47 <elliott> echo 'exit 1' >false; chmod +x false
22:44:01 <elliott> olsner: stat, not wc -c? :p
22:44:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I got the link from http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/
22:44:36 <olsner> elliott: for some reason, yes
22:45:31 <elliott> http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/hello.asm.txt
22:45:41 <elliott> now make some of the code have the hello world chars in
22:46:04 <elliott> http://d.hatena.ne.jp/kikx/20061111
22:46:16 <elliott> can be 57 bytes if you drop the !, as hello.asm.txt does
22:48:12 <olsner> oh, incidentally test2 was a quine, didn't even notice
22:48:21 <Phantom_Hoover> In under 3 times the line count that the GNU idiots took for _true_.
22:48:23 <olsner> silly quine but whatever, my first quine
22:50:38 <elliott> olsner: it's a cheat quine
22:50:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i like how even you hate gnu now
22:51:47 <elliott> olsner: write an real-mode asm quine!
22:53:51 <elliott> [[Here's a program that I actually use. It simply runs forever, printing a bell character every four minutes or so. I keep it in the background after logging into a remote machine that times out connections when they're idle. At 56 bytes, it's a bit longer than the one-line shell script I originally used, but on the plus side it doesn't take up an extra process in order to sleep.]]
22:54:16 <elliott> http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/bf.asm.txt
22:54:17 <elliott> http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/bf.asm.txt
22:54:17 <elliott> http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/bf.asm.txt
22:54:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: not on modern linux, sure
22:55:25 <elliott> btw http://asm.sourceforge.net/asmutils.html is more of this good stuff
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22:56:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: btw, there's a nice ls + more at https://github.com/Orc/bin
22:57:04 <elliott> cat, date, df, id, ls, uname, who
22:57:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "This is a simple base64 decoder utility. Like hexdump, it can either accept a filename on the command line, or work on standard input. Since sometimes very large files need to be encoded in base64, I violated my prime directive a little bit and let the program grow a bit more than strictly necessary, in order to optimize for speed. This version is there significantly faster than the ut
22:57:28 <elliott> ility included in GNU coreutils. Its size is exactly 256 bytes."
22:58:39 <elliott> "Another unique feature of factor is that it has online help, version information, and error messages. It therefore arguably stands as a completely functional replacement for the version in GNU coreutils. Its size is 1020 bytes."
22:59:12 <elliott> GNU factor: 31 times as big as the other one, and rubbish!
22:59:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh, and that factor links to libc too
22:59:29 <elliott> also, it's faster than gnu factor
22:59:34 <elliott> http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/factor.asm.txt
22:59:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "online help" is arcanejargon for "--help", btw.
22:59:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: uhh... nothing
23:00:12 <elliott> gnu factor doesn't even have any flags other than --help and --version
23:01:00 <Phantom_Hoover> The full documentation for factor is maintained as a Texinfo manual.
23:04:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:19:27 <elliott> Gregor: Bionic needs a bit of fixing up :) "# Android implements its own account management, and does not use /etc/passwd. There is no getpwent(), and getpwnam()/getpwuid() are implemented as wrappers around an Android ID service. At present, the Android ID service consists of 25 hard-coded accounts in <android_filesystem_config.h>"
23:20:12 <elliott> "Bionic expects some information to be stored at a magic address high
23:20:12 <elliott> in the process address space. Right now that information is populated
23:20:12 <elliott> by the dynamic linker. If the process is linked statically and the
23:20:12 <elliott> linker doesn't run that would be a problem, but probably a solvable
23:20:12 <elliott> one as the support could be added to crt.o instead."
23:20:23 <elliott> http://www.metasploit.com/redmine/issues/2418
23:25:21 <elliott> Gregor: "My friend did some experiments and verified that vim's execution time grows as a square of the number of times the command is repeated."
23:25:51 <Gregor> Yes, but I'm betting those experiments were fucked up :P
23:26:02 <elliott> Gregor: Actually, no: 1000000aaoeu^[
23:26:08 <elliott> Gregor: Four megs of aaoeu.
23:26:33 <Gregor> Yeah, but that's BS anyway :P
23:26:33 <elliott> Gregor: nvi did it in a second. He gave up on vim after 74 minutes, and then his friend worked it out and it TURNS OUT it would have taken 14.3 hours.
23:26:44 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, but... how do you fuck up your architecture that badly?
23:26:47 <elliott> Repetition is a fucking for loop!
23:31:03 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:35:14 <elliott> "secondly, take an OS design class. the main reason to use modular device drivers is to keep the system up and running in the event that a driver should fail (or just to be nice to programmers)."
23:35:20 <elliott> understanding of what linux kernel modules are fail
23:35:56 <elliott> Blog comments are so useless, even by the author :P
23:36:59 <Sgeo> <bobbysir> Hmm
23:36:59 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> A ... geeky person I know seems to have found an issue with common definitions of turing-complete
23:36:59 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge/index.php
23:36:59 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Befunge-93 is a non-TC language that has a finite amount of space for the program itself
23:36:59 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Brainfuck is a language that is turing-complete.
23:37:07 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Now, is Befinge/index.php turing-complete? On the one hand, it can interpret BF programs, so yes. On the other hand, there is only finite space for code, so no
23:37:13 <Sgeo> Did I explan that properly?
23:38:26 * Sgeo just points them to the talk page
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23:40:09 <elliott> Gregor: Have you ever used buildroot? http://buildroot.uclibc.org/
23:40:16 <elliott> I seem to recall you ... mentioning BusyBox ... once ...
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23:53:53 <elliott> pikhq: If you want me to support x86_64, now is the time to bother me incessantly.
23:54:51 <Gregor> elliott: He'll be happy so long as your docs all have the right doctype declaration and MIME type.
23:55:13 <elliott> Gregor: The correct roff doctype
23:55:42 <Gregor> That being said, not supporting x86_64 is pretty stupid.
23:55:45 <Gregor> What with this being THE FUTURE.
23:56:22 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, but x86_64 also bloats everything on the system and I'm lazy. On the other hand, as someone who has programmed a boot sector, eight fucking registers thank fucking god.
23:56:29 * Sgeo is just glad humanity hasn't been sterilized
23:56:40 <elliott> Gregor: On the other other hand, what's the point of a nice teensy-tiny distribution that doesn't run on anything before 2004?
23:56:51 <Gregor> elliott: I didn't say x86_64 ONLY.
23:57:03 <elliott> Gregor: Note: I will be the only maintainer. Note: I have to build every damn package all the time.
23:58:59 <elliott> Gregor: Unless, of course, you would like to maintain one of the ports.
23:59:13 <elliott> Gregor: (And provide the extra disk space to store packages if required.)
23:59:26 <Gregor> Depends on how shitty the distro is :)
23:59:40 <elliott> Gregor: For the GNUfan that you are: Incredibly :P
00:01:33 <elliott> Gregor: More seriously, I think it'll be pretty cool. Although would you be freaked out by programs you compile ending up using a different libc to the rest of the system? 'Cause if so, well.
00:01:46 <Gregor> libc is just another library :P
00:01:48 <elliott> Gregor: (Static linking = just because a new libc comes out, doesn't mean I'm recompiling every fucking package)
00:02:01 <elliott> (but I will package the new libc)
00:02:16 <elliott> (to recompile the entire system)
00:02:39 <Gregor> I'll only like it if you use something like my Separated Packages System :P
00:02:45 <calamari> so what epic argument did I join in the midst of?
00:02:53 <elliott> Gregor: Link me to that again, I forget the specifics.
00:03:00 <Gregor> Do I have a link for it? X-D
00:03:05 <elliott> Gregor: It had a web page!
00:03:16 <elliott> Gregor: With at least ONE example!
00:03:21 <Gregor> http://codu.org/projects/trac/sps/
00:03:30 <elliott> Gregor: It was not Trac! It in fact had no CSS at all!
00:03:34 <elliott> Gregor: But this will do :P
00:03:52 <Gregor> Yeah, I have actually updated it since then. I rewrote it from scratch at least once.
00:03:55 <elliott> Gregor: Right, that horrible piece of bloat :)
00:03:55 -!- nooga has joined.
00:04:20 <elliott> Gregor: More seriously, I don't think I'll have a /usr. So, you know, you'll be messing with what / is. Which is, good luck.
00:04:40 <elliott> Gregor: Well, feel free to create a /usr. And run SPS on it. I might even package it.
00:04:51 <elliott> Gregor: You'll have to port it from apt-get though, which should be trivial :P
00:05:01 <elliott> bash-4.1 emacs-23.2 nginx-0.8.53 ruby-1.9.2-p0
00:05:01 <elliott> CLC-INTERCAL-1.-94.-2 ick-0.-2.0.29 perl-5.12.2 zsh-4.3.10
00:05:01 <elliott> egobf-0.7.1 nasm-2.09.03 Python-2.7
00:05:13 <elliott> Gregor: All installed from HTTP URLs to tarballs and nothing else :P
00:05:33 <elliott> http://www.nongnu.org/sps/ this was the page
00:05:50 <elliott> Gregor: At least you've abandoned D.
00:05:59 <elliott> Gregor: I note that your source repository is remarkably empty for SPS.
00:06:10 <Gregor> It's a good language with a community that's shit itself.
00:06:28 <Gregor> elliott: Uhh, you mean http://codu.org/projects/sps/hg/ ?
00:06:52 <Sgeo> What language?
00:06:54 <elliott> Gregor: It's a bad language with a bad toolchain and a community that has been blinded by the gigantic ejaculate of shittiness so that they can no longer see how crap their whole environment is, and patiently explain how to massage the crap into something vaguely usable to anyone who asks.
00:07:08 <elliott> Gregor: No, I meant the Trac source viewer, which inexplicably has files in it :P
00:07:11 <Gregor> It's a GOOD language. At least D1 was.
00:07:18 <elliott> Gregor: 'Snot. 'S like C++.
00:07:26 <Sgeo> Gregor, what language?
00:07:31 <elliott> Gregor: Okay, that IS the repo I was seeing.
00:09:10 <elliott> Gregor: To be honest, SPS is entirely useless for libraries because of static linking :P
00:10:36 <elliott> Gregor: As far as needing various versions of *binaries*, well... how often do you actually have that need, seriously? Enough to build an entire system around? :P
00:10:48 <elliott> Gregor: (Is putting a symlink named "gcc" somewhere in a temporary $PATH so difficult?)
00:11:11 <Gregor> elliott: It's spiritually based on a system they used at Intel.
00:11:16 <Gregor> For a normal system it's totally useless :P
00:11:36 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, I'm sure systems as fucked up as Intel will migrate to Kitten right away :P
00:11:42 <elliott> And expect everything to work out of the box, too! :D
00:12:28 <elliott> coppro: Says the coprophiliac.
00:13:01 <calamari> http://bits.ohloh.net/attachments/5031/logo-caca.png
00:13:12 <elliott> That is indeed libcaca's logo.
00:14:20 <elliott> Oh, they changed it. Slightly.
00:15:32 <elliott> Gregor: I just realised the Kitten release day will be plagued by your silly complaints :P
00:17:39 <elliott> Gregor: (Unless you like it and promise to use it forever, and then I'll just have to deal with your bug reports)
00:17:54 <elliott> calamari: file:///home/ehird/mind-fifo
00:17:58 <elliott> (Also ~/kitten for stuff I'm hacking on)
00:18:03 <elliott> Err, not fifo. Device file.
00:18:09 <Gregor> calamari: http://www.webdesign.org/img_articles/7072/BW-kitten.jpg
00:21:33 <calamari> so if Huckabee wins and puts God into the constitution, what does that mean for us godless sinners?
00:21:48 <elliott> calamari: It means no kittens.
00:21:55 <elliott> Also, nothing (apart from the ones who live in the US).
00:22:04 <elliott> Gregor: How STRONG is your hate for ksh?
00:22:23 <Sgeo> calamari, I would hope that Congress wouldn't vote any such amendment in
00:22:43 <Sgeo> </taking-jokes-too-seriously>
00:22:58 <Gregor> elliott: Less than bash or zsh, more than csh?
00:23:11 <calamari> yeah well I'd hope that the president can't choose to kill any citizen he wants to with no oversight, but that can happen
00:23:12 <elliott> Gregor: You... hate ksh more than csh?
00:23:14 <Gregor> That was all backwards
00:23:22 <Gregor> elliott: More than bash or zsh, less than csh?
00:23:24 <elliott> Gregor: ?hsc naht... no, I still don't get it.
00:23:47 <elliott> Gregor: WELL TOUGH! cuz it totally (will) (use)[s] pdksh by default.
00:24:02 <Gregor> The Pretty Damn Kute Shell
00:24:38 <elliott> public domain ksh actually :P
00:24:54 <elliott> Gregor: Well, actually, it's more likely to be the portable version of the OpenBSD ksh.
00:26:04 <elliott> http://www.delilinux.de/oksh/
00:26:04 <elliott> https://github.com/dryfish/openbsd-pdksh
00:26:05 <elliott> http://www.wormhole.hu/~ice/ksh/
00:26:57 <elliott> "To use mksh, you only need the C runtime (and any supplemental libraries the binary was linked against) and, optionally, /bin/ed"
00:27:21 <elliott> "The first example is using BSD paxtar (MirOS BSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD®), or
00:27:21 <elliott> “bsdtar” (DragonFly); the second and third use cpio(1) or pax(1) and are
00:27:21 <elliott> for most operating systems; the fourth is for Debian." ;; there are exactly three examples listed
00:31:21 <elliott> Gregor: Aw man, I'll definitely have to include GNU make.
00:31:58 <elliott> Gregor: Unless you know of a make that's gompatible :P
00:32:13 <elliott> "pymake: A mostly GNU-compatible python implementation of `make`"
00:32:17 <elliott> GOOGLING THIS REASSURES ME
00:32:31 <elliott> Okay, slightly more inspired :P
00:32:34 <elliott> "# Parallel builds (-j > 1) are not yet supported"
00:32:36 <elliott> Inspiration utterly drained
00:34:11 <elliott> │ This option makes grep, sed etc handle rare corner cases │
00:34:11 <elliott> │ (embedded NUL bytes and such). This makes code bigger and uses │
00:34:11 <elliott> │ some GNU extensions in libc. You probably only need this option │
00:34:11 <elliott> │ if you plan to run busybox on desktop. │
00:34:19 <elliott> I like how I want that but can't if I'm not going to use glibc :P
00:35:04 <elliott> │ Store usage messages in compressed form, uncompress them on-the-fly │
00:35:05 <elliott> │ when <applet> --help is called. │
00:36:24 <Sgeo> Why would... maybe I shouldn't bother being part of this channel
00:36:45 <Sgeo> But why would things like handling embedded NUL bytes require extens... Oh. C string suckiness. Right
00:38:36 <elliott> Gregor: I certainly can't find the option to have all applets as separate binaries.
00:39:52 <elliott> │ Line editing code uses on-stack buffers for storage. │
00:39:52 <elliott> │ Symbol: FEATURE_EDITING_MAX_LEN [=1024] │
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00:42:04 <Vorpal> elliott, bought minecraft yet?
00:42:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Ehm, too busy Kittening. Which would you prefer? :P
00:42:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Right now I'm trying to coerce busybox to build a lot of little binaries rather than one gigantic one.
00:42:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I would prefer that you made a giant kitten model in minecraft. Or implemented kitten on that ALU in minecraft!
00:43:02 <elliott> Vorpal: There's a CPU now.
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00:43:20 <elliott> Vorpal: It had a whopping 8 bytes of RAM, which is apparently going to be doubled.
00:43:32 <Vorpal> elliott, could take a lot of work
00:43:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Not really, it's just tedious (copying the blocks).
00:43:48 <elliott> Of course if you used an editor...
00:44:02 <pikhq> elliott: You should exclusively support x86_64.
00:44:16 <elliott> pikhq: And then what of all the other machines?
00:44:32 <elliott> pikhq: You do realise that all good ThinkPads were 32-bit?
00:44:54 <elliott> Vorpal: screw ARM. no really, screw ARM :P
00:44:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: Everyone knows there can only be one architecture.
00:45:06 <elliott> Vorpal: You can't make "an ARM OS", you have to make 50 ARM OSes pretending to be one.
00:45:39 <Vorpal> elliott, um you could just put the custom code in one place?
00:45:46 <elliott> "a minimal static blog generator written using old-school unix tools (make, ksh, m4, awk, procmail and a pinch of elisp)"
00:45:54 <elliott> make okay, ksh okay, m4 okay, awk okay, ... procmail?!
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00:46:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, linux pretends to be not only x86 and x86_64, but also ARM and what not
00:46:33 <elliott> Vorpal: I do not understand your words. :P
00:47:00 <elliott> Gregor: Gaah, why did you make my brain believe BusyBox would be nice and simple; the damn thing has an implementation of dpkg!
00:47:04 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: You can't make "an ARM OS", you have to make 50 ARM OSes pretending to be one. <-- so linux is more than 50 OSes (remember the other arches) pretending to be one?
00:47:14 <Gregor> elliott: I never intended to imply it was simple at all :P
00:47:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Except that ARM is wildly inconsistent since it's, like, the most popular CPU around and isn't even one consistent architecture :P
00:47:39 <elliott> And at least x86/64 implies something vaguely like an IBM PC in some ways.
00:47:49 <Vorpal> elliott, there were non-PCs
00:47:56 <elliott> Yes, but you can't boot i386 Linux on them :P
00:48:08 <Vorpal> elliott, it supports some of them
00:48:28 <Vorpal> elliott, some weird 32-bit NUMA system and so on
00:49:16 <elliott> Gregor: Fuck BusyBox, I already have one hellishly deep configuration set to work out (Linux) :P
00:50:09 <elliott> Gregor: Now you are legally required to point me to something that isn't BusyBox (or gnu coreutils) :P
00:50:29 <Gregor> http://www.google.com/search?q=heirloom+toolchest
00:50:35 <pikhq> elliott: You can boot i386 Linux on those odd-ball architectures.
00:50:41 <pikhq> elliott: You just have to build the kernel for them.
00:50:47 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, I know what Heirloom is. It's what Sgeo would do, if he grew up on UNIX.
00:50:56 <elliott> Gregor: I am not aiming for nostalgia, old Unix sucked and that's the truth :P
00:51:06 <elliott> (I would like to claim the UNIX typo there was intentional.)
00:52:38 <elliott> -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 937K Nov 10 00:50 busybox
00:52:43 <elliott> (Okay, so that's dynamic glibc.)
00:52:55 <elliott> (And it probably contains all sorts of useless crap I didn't have the patience to disable.)
00:53:04 <Sgeo> What's the point of keeping the old algorithms (which are somewhat invisible) intact, but removing some nostalgia-inducing limitations?
00:53:17 <elliott> Gregor: I tried compiling the FreeBSD core utilities on OS X once -- the same damn OS, you will recall.
00:53:21 <elliott> Gregor: FIRE AND MOTHERFUCKIN' BRIMSTONE.
00:53:27 <elliott> That code is soooooooo not portable.
00:53:35 <Sgeo> Oh wait, this is actually for "real work"?
00:53:41 <Gregor> elliott: How 'bout NetBSD!
00:53:46 <Gregor> "Linux: Of course it runs NetBSD!"
00:54:07 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
00:54:17 <elliott> fizzie: What did I call that command, again?
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00:56:58 <Gregor> I think the latter, like "shoe in the door"
00:57:04 <Gregor> But apparently other people think the former.
00:57:14 <elliott> Gregor: I thought it was the latter but apparently "not" http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/shoe-in.html
00:57:19 <elliott> A race horse so fast that you can merely shoo it across the finish line rather than having to urge it on with stronger measures is a “shoo-in”: an easy winner. It is particularly unfortunate when this expression is misspelled “shoe-in” because to “shoehorn” something in is to squeeze it in with great difficulty.
00:57:39 <elliott> I think shoe-in has overtaken in the public consc... consciousness of the small portion of the public that says that.
00:58:14 <Gregor> elliott: That description of unfortunateitude makes no sense, since it ignores the expression "shoe in the door" ...
00:58:30 <elliott> Gregor: THARS PRESCRIPTIVISM FOUR YAR
00:59:05 <Gregor> Prescriptivists suck. And not in the good way. I'm spelling it "shoe-in" just to be anti-prescriptivist ... in a prescriptivist kind of way.
00:59:20 <elliott> I'll prescribe YOUR ivist.
01:02:48 <elliott> Gregor: Wikipedia trying to counter our argument for little-endian systems because of some misguided notion of neutrality: "On the other hand, in some situations it may be useful to obtain an approximation of a multi-byte or multi-word value by reading only its most-significant portion instead of the complete representation; a big-endian processor may read such an approximation using the same base-addr
01:02:48 <elliott> ess that would be used for the full value."
01:02:52 <elliott> I wonder if anyone has ever used that ever :P
01:03:53 <Gregor> Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, nice nonsense hypothetical there :P
01:12:01 <elliott> Sgeo: your wiki reign is finally over
01:12:05 <elliott> Sgeo: nethackwiki just moved off wikia
01:12:39 <elliott> now let's watch wikia do their usual thing and try and split the community
01:12:57 <Gregor> Nethackwiki should totes be a Hackiki :P
01:13:18 <elliott> [[Wikia staff members (ie Sannse) have been deleting ANY post which mentions eyestrain or headaches on the community blogs. There have been several ophthalmologists from Britain who've posted that the skin has caused eyestrain to those who have dominant right eyes, and that the eyestrain could easily cause a headache. All posts were deleted with the reason being "spam".]]
01:13:23 <elliott> It is absolutely insane, Wikia.
01:13:32 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm an admin there too
01:13:34 <elliott> Then it was "we made a new skin. FUCK YOU, YOU WILL LIKE IT."
01:14:05 <elliott> Then it was "don't like it? Moving off? We refuse to give you anything, and we WILL continue using your URL and name and promoting it over yours. Also, we registered [yourwiki].com because fuck you. You can't have it. [This actually happened]"
01:14:19 <elliott> Now it's "Expert? Think we're damaging eyes? FUCK. YOU."
01:14:29 <Sgeo> Also, I did get someone more experienced with such moves to help contribute advice
01:14:37 <Sgeo> And elliott still has me blocked
01:14:46 * Gregor plays websplat on the Nethack wiki.
01:15:08 <Sgeo> Gregor, get elliott to either unignore me or read the logs of just now
01:15:09 <elliott> What, http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page?
01:15:16 <elliott> Gregor: any new havenworks scores?
01:15:29 <Gregor> elliott: None better than what'd been done before :P
01:15:43 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to CheckLogs.
01:15:46 -!- CheckLogs has changed nick to Sgeo.
01:15:56 <elliott> Gregor: Did Mr. Inhuman play again?
01:15:59 <elliott> Actually, I saw that nick change.
01:17:27 <elliott> (15:56:29 * Sgeo is just glad humanity hasn't been sterilized <-- wut)
01:17:46 <Sgeo> SG-1 "2010" reference
01:17:48 <elliott> 15:36:59 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> A ... geeky person I know seems to have found an issue with common definitions of turing-complete
01:17:56 <zzo38> I added two configured channels now
01:17:58 <elliott> Hardly; ais523 has been over all these ambiguities with his proof.
01:18:11 <elliott> That's as far as I'm reading :P
01:18:27 <Sgeo> I was hoping you'd be reading my response to the wiki stuff >.>
01:18:48 <elliott> 17:18:27 <Sgeo> I was hoping you'd be reading my response to the wiki stuff >.>
01:19:35 <Sgeo> Is elliott having trouble counting without Captain Obvious?
01:20:00 <coppro> elliott should take some C&O lessons
01:20:36 <coppro> elliott: combinatorics & optimization
01:20:45 <elliott> Gregor: [[In Related languages section, after the phrase "Many people at various times have tried to extend brainfuck to make it easier to program in", I would like to delete "but such efforts have been compared to trying to make a luxury car by gluing parts onto a skateboard" and put in this place "BrainSub is the first one to achieve this goal in 2007"; unless someone have reasons to not to do this c
01:20:46 <elliott> hange. What do you think? Aacini 03:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)]]
01:20:49 <elliott> coppro: Yes, I am not sure why you said that.
01:20:51 <Sgeo> He needs to learn to count first
01:21:15 <Gregor> elliott: laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawl
01:21:31 <coppro> Sgeo: no, that's where he goes to learn to count
01:21:42 <coppro> oh right, elliott has Sgeo on /ignore
01:21:47 <coppro> that's why he doesn't get it
01:22:36 <Gregor> This BrainSub person is an idiot :P
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01:24:56 <Sgeo> Let's put COBOL in a modern runtime! Oh, wait, that's been done for real. For serious reasons.
01:25:21 <Sgeo> COBOL.NET and BrainSub were made by the same person!
01:25:29 <Sgeo> Can't you see?
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01:31:50 <Sgeo> I think Gregor has his ignore list hardlinked to elliott's
01:32:11 <Sgeo> Acting like it sometimes though
01:53:24 * Sgeo catches the end of Time's Arrow
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02:16:04 * Sgeo immediately notes an averted trope in this SGU episode
02:19:01 <Sgeo> The ship did not stop moving when engines went off
02:19:14 <coppro> I need to watch this season
02:23:25 <coppro> hmm.. 3 weeks from now
02:23:30 * coppro debates torrenting now vs. then
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02:32:01 <Sgeo> Is it possible to torrent now, and then later only the relevant episodes?
02:33:27 <Gregor> That sentence makes no sense, but I THINK you're talking about downloading only particular files via *torrent, which you can do with certain clients.
02:33:36 <Gregor> Such as most clients, for example.
02:41:41 <Sgeo> This episode is somewhat painful
02:42:02 <Sgeo> Just.. plot hole wise. Or maybe I don't remember some previous episodes well enough
02:45:52 <coppro> but that requires getting two torrents
02:47:22 <pikhq> Wow. Car manufacturers design 3 different versions of their cars: US, rest of the world right-hand-drive, rest of the world left-hand-drive.
02:47:59 <pikhq> Because, just to be contrary (honest, *just to be contrary*), our safety standards are completely different from every other countries'.
02:48:14 <pikhq> (and incompatible)
02:49:18 <coppro> actually just to be incompatible?
02:49:34 <coppro> that sounds so very american
02:49:35 <pikhq> The world safety standards came *before* the US ones.
02:49:40 <coppro> examples of incompatibilities?
02:50:00 <pikhq> The types of headlights mandated in the rest of the world are banned in the US.
02:51:35 <pikhq> Also, US safety standards are based around increasing safety without increasing cost appreciably.
02:51:39 <Gregor> And yet these Zenon (or whateverTV) bulbs are allowed?
02:51:39 <Gregor> Oh wait, are they actually Xenon?
02:51:52 <Sgeo> What's bad about Xenon?
02:51:54 <Gregor> I thought it was just some brand name, never occurred to me that it may not be X-D
02:52:25 <Sgeo> Oh, the ultra bright bulbs?
02:52:31 <Gregor> Sgeo: Xenon bulbs are so fucking bright that they blind everyone unlucky enough to be in their path. So the driver may be able to see the pedestrian (unless he's blinded by the glare), but the pedestrian is blind.
02:53:36 <Sgeo> You're only supposed to use them in certain conditions, I think
02:53:45 <Sgeo> Although, drivers being drivers...
02:53:59 <pikhq> Gregor: In the rest of the world, such headlights require lens cleaners and automatic beam levelling for the purpose of reducing the glare and blinding.
02:54:06 <pikhq> Gregor: In the US, such things are optional.
03:01:47 <Sgeo> SGU SPOILER IN TRAILER FOR NEXT EPISODE FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
03:03:04 <Sgeo> 's already editing it to make me wonder if I misremembered and maybe they said something else
03:03:25 <Sgeo> And of course, it's possible that what I heard happen doesn't happen for "real"
03:03:35 <pikhq> Oh, and US safety standards also have the effect of reducing fuel efficiency *while* decreasing safety.
03:03:47 <Sgeo> pikhq, how so?
03:03:54 <coppro> pikhq: but it costs no more, right?
03:04:00 <coppro> that's what's important!
03:04:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: The safety standards require less safe and less fuel-efficient designs.
03:04:57 <Sgeo> Stargate Wiki: FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUU even more
03:05:13 <coppro> and you went to a wiki
03:05:14 <pikhq> In particular, our mandate for 1940s headlight designs up until the early 90s made creating aerodynamic cars almost impossible.
03:05:17 <Sgeo> I am caught up
03:05:31 <coppro> then wth did the wiki do?
03:05:37 <pikhq> We motherfucking hate logic.
03:05:53 <Sgeo> "**** will have a *-episode story arc"
03:06:25 <Sgeo> Although actually, the given number doesn't quite match ... um, actuality
03:07:24 <Sgeo> Wait, n-episode might mean she's not involved in every episode
03:07:35 <Sgeo> So the n only includes episode's she's in?
03:08:22 <Sgeo> Still, I heard what I heard. And that n is a small number
03:08:43 <Sgeo> I gave away more than I intended to
03:10:44 <pikhq> US classification of weapons makes no fucking sense.
03:11:24 <pikhq> All GPS receivers capable of functioning above 18km altitude and 515 m/s are considered weapons under US law.
03:11:59 * Sgeo has no use for such a devic... _capable_?
03:11:59 <coppro> what about Galileo receivers?
03:12:14 <pikhq> As such, all consumer GPS receivers have code for disabling that.
03:12:29 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yes, *capable*.
03:13:04 <Sgeo> I had this missile lying around, and I wanted to target a specific location, so I got a GPS. Sadly, they disabled the ability to work under the conditions I need.
03:13:08 <pikhq> coppro: No such stupidity.
03:13:18 <pikhq> Sgeo: Doesn't stop cruise missiles.
03:13:27 <pikhq> Sgeo: Just ballistic missiles.
03:13:42 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure someone with a ballistic missile could make a GPS receiver.
03:14:14 <Sgeo> Doesn't the military have the ability to disable GPS or something?
03:14:51 <pikhq> coppro: Actually, they just disabled the feature that gives the military higher accuracy than consumer devices.
03:15:15 <pikhq> coppro: They can still selectively *disable* GPS in a region except for the US military.
03:20:15 <pikhq> Oh, awesome. Soviet Russia did a global navigation satellite system as well.
03:20:18 <pikhq> It still functions.
03:20:53 <pikhq> It fell into disrepair in the 90s, but Russia committed to restoring it by 2010 back in 2000.
03:22:12 <Sgeo> Did they succeed?
03:22:38 <pikhq> Sgeo: It covered the world once again in September.
03:22:50 <pikhq> Had full coverage of Russia earlier.
03:23:54 <Sgeo> How do sattelites manage to have full coverage of exactly one area of the globe for a significant period of time?
03:23:55 <pikhq> They're also about to launch more satellites that will broadcast on the same frequencies as GPS, GALILEO, Compass, et al.
03:24:14 <pikhq> (so that a multistandard receiver would be easier)
03:24:53 <Sgeo> Hypothetically, could someone launch a satellite that sends fake GPS or GALILEO signals?
03:25:44 <pikhq> Sgeo: Actually, it's more that each satellite has coverage of a *path*. Full coverage in an area involves being able to access more than one satellite at the same time 24/7, by having the paths intersect just right.
03:26:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: Not very well. One of the things that those satellites do is broadcast information about *all* the satellites (rough orbital path, general system health, etc.).
03:29:46 <pikhq> And how they actually get the positioning down is by each satellite having an atomic clock and broadcasting a time signal.
03:31:24 <pikhq> Account for the speed of light, you get the distance from each satellite, triangulate, voila.
03:31:44 <Sgeo> And I assume the receiver calculates where each sattelite should be? Where does that part occur?
03:32:25 <pikhq> It knows the orbital path of each satellite.
03:32:35 <pikhq> Because it got told by all the satellites.
03:33:00 <Sgeo> you said "rough" orbital path
03:33:55 <pikhq> The satellite also broadcasts its own orbital path as accurately as can be measured.
03:35:11 <Sgeo> Does the receiver have much use for the excess information (path of other satellites)?
03:35:40 <pikhq> Makes it easier to find the other satellites.
03:36:04 <pikhq> And know if some satellites are bogus.
03:44:54 <Ilari> Defintion of "weapon of mass destruction" is also quite bad. Certainly more broad than the classical definition of "ABC".
03:48:07 <Ilari> Or even the extended defintion of CBRN...
03:50:06 <pikhq> And why is encryption a form of weaponry?
03:50:15 <Ilari> Wonder if the GPS receivers are hardened against bogus data (systems receiving "trusted" data might not be)...
03:50:51 <pikhq> I'd imagine consumer receivers aren't, but military receivers are.
03:51:05 <Ilari> There was some STB that could be hung quite badly by sending random garbage as data...
03:51:36 <Ilari> Intentionally bogus data is even worse than random garbage.
03:52:20 <pikhq> The reason for that guess is simple: the military gives a shit about their systems always working, and consumer electronics manufacturers give a shit about saving pennies.
04:01:05 <Sgeo> Surely it's a matter of software to do some checking?
04:01:30 <Sgeo> Although I guess development time does cost money, so
04:01:53 <Sgeo> I don't see how it's not basically a one-time cost though
04:04:03 <pikhq> Remember: business is run by cheap-ass bastards.
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04:07:11 <Gregor> I wonder if you could dye your hair a color that no human has, but is subtle enough the people wouldn't immediately recognize it as fake.
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04:52:48 <zzo38> Hello. Welcome to ;jaljsdfa;lsjfwijf.0wjt.4wtj42q3t1t3ji0gjehjNO CARRIERljq3;4tlj,,v;tc.-0935-91324`;skv a,ijgrntwerjk;
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05:39:58 <zzo38> Can GraphicsMagick with with MIFF format?
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08:00:05 <Vorpal> elliott (for log reading): yellow text: "NP is not in P!" XD
08:00:49 <Vorpal> and if he did, would it give him more money to write the paper or work on minecraft?
08:03:58 <fizzie> The Millennium prize for "P ? NP" is $1M; minecraft.net says "579053 purchases" at the moment, so with 9.95 EUR/purchase, that's gross profits of about $7.9M. Of course it's anyone's guess how large a percentage of that will be burned by the startup company; probably pretty large.
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08:28:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, NP has a strange name considering it isn't known to not be in P
08:29:40 <fizzie> I'unno, it's not N for "non", after all.
08:31:38 <Vorpal> ah wait, I'm still half asleep
08:35:25 <Vorpal> well, bbl (university)
08:36:07 <coppro> http://www.salon.com/technology/how_the_world_works/2010/11/09/john_shimkus_god_and_noah
08:36:11 <coppro> pikhq: your government is fucked up
08:36:50 <Ilari> Heh... If there is problem in NEXPTIME that's not in EXPTIME, then NP does not equal P.
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14:09:13 <Gregor> fizzie: Actually it is "non" ... non-deterministic anyway :P
14:09:37 <fizzie> Well, if you want to be a PEDANTIC PEDANTY PEDAN about it.
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14:21:07 <elliott> 21:39:58 <zzo38> Can GraphicsMagick with with MIFF format?
14:21:25 <elliott> 00:00:05 <Vorpal> elliott (for log reading): yellow text: "NP is not in P!" XD
14:21:41 <elliott> 00:03:58 <fizzie> The Millennium prize for "P ? NP" is $1M; minecraft.net says "579053 purchases" at the moment, so with 9.95 EUR/purchase, that's gross profits of about $7.9M. Of course it's anyone's guess how large a percentage of that will be burned by the startup company; probably pretty large.
14:25:52 <elliott> 19:50:06 <pikhq> And why is encryption a form of weaponry?
14:25:52 <elliott> 19:50:14 <pikhq> Fuck the US.
14:25:54 <elliott> non-US countries have that
14:27:55 <fizzie> PayPal merchant rate says it's (2.9 %+$0.30) per transaction by default, (1.9%+$0.30) for the "merchant rate" with >$100k monthly payments. Then there's a +1% cross-border fee, and +2.5% currency-conversion fee that I guess quite often would apply to someone in Sweden accepting money in EUR. And maybe other hidden fees; still, I don't think they can conceivably eat more than, say, a third.
14:28:52 <fizzie> I think quite a few indie-ish game-developers are feeling the envy. I know at least one. :p
14:33:04 <elliott> fizzie: Hell, I'm jealous of my indie-game-developer-blah friend, and he only makes on the order of thousands.
14:33:15 <elliott> (But then his games take a lot less work to make than Minecraft. :P)
14:36:41 <fizzie> "A ′′symmetric algorithm′′ employing a key length in excess of 56 bits" is part of the EU-wide export control restrictions; see the 269 pages of Regulation 428/2009 at http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2009/june/tradoc_143390.pdf
14:37:13 <elliott> How to deal with crypto export laws when publishing open source software on the Internet: Ignore them. :p
14:37:20 <fizzie> There are all kinds of exceptions, of course.
14:37:27 <elliott> (Although put some kind of "If this is illegal for you then, welp" notice there.)
14:37:57 <fizzie> You are allowed to put strong encryption into a DVB set as long as it is "exclusively used for sending the billing or programme-related information back to the broadcast providers".
14:38:32 <fizzie> Also okay are things that are "specially designed and limited for banking use or ’money transactions’".
14:39:24 <fizzie> A subnote of 5A002 Note d clarifies that "settlement of fares" is a type of money transaction.
14:40:49 <fizzie> And mobile phones as long as they can only talk directly into the network operator's hardware, and can't do end-to-end encryption.
14:41:35 <fizzie> Also good: "Portable or mobile radiotelephones and similar client wireless devices for civil use, that implement only published or commercial cryptographic standards (except for anti-piracy functions, which may be non-published) and also meet the provisions of paragraphs b. to d. of the Cryptography Note ..."
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14:42:10 <fizzie> It's a long long document.
14:42:37 <elliott> fizzie: "Crypto is weaponry, unless you use it for things you'd use crypto for."
14:43:05 <fizzie> "Personal area network" things that involve only "published or commercial" standards are exempt as long as "the cryptographic capability is limited to a nominal operating range not exceeding 30 metres according to the manufacturer’s specifications".
14:43:24 <fizzie> "Sorry, you can't ship this: the crypto goes three metres too far."
14:46:37 <elliott> Plan: Hijack fizzie's laptop server. Use copious disk space to store Kitten packages.
14:46:38 -!- FireFly has joined.
14:46:48 <elliott> (TODO: Find out how much disk fizzie's laptop server has.)
14:46:58 <elliott> (TODO: Avoid law enforcement.)
14:47:37 <fizzie> I went to do a df for you, but apparently the vserver stuff messes that up a bit.
14:47:45 <fizzie> Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
14:47:45 <fizzie> /dev/hdv1 5.0G 971M 3.8G 21% /
14:48:12 <elliott> fizzie: That's quite alright! Just do a ... whatever command creates one of them servers ... for me1
14:48:51 <fizzie> I don't think I'm going to start server-hosting, sowwy.
14:49:02 <elliott> fizzie: No, you see, I'll be hijacking.
14:49:07 <elliott> So you'd have no official position at all!
14:50:10 <fizzie> In actual reality the external USB disk thing has 233G, of which 151G is used. Why is there so much stuff in there, in fact?
14:50:28 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, that thing could store far more Kitten packages.
14:51:16 <fizzie> "Suppliers wishing to apply for authorisation should contact the competent national authorities for details of what information must be supplied." But what if everyone in my country is incompetent?
14:51:48 <elliott> (I am not quite sure what political opinion that makes.)
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14:52:02 <elliott> Also there's the obvious nonsensicalness of it all.
14:52:28 <fizzie> Also the page on how export control is derived from UN resolutions is titled "How to prevent proliferation of horrific weapons, weapons of mass destruction?"
14:52:47 <fizzie> HORRIFIC 35-meter-range personal area networks.
14:53:19 <elliott> fizzie: I like the repetition.
14:53:33 <elliott> HORRIFIC WEAPONS. EWAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION!
14:54:40 <fizzie> Ewoks of mass destruction.
14:58:05 -!- jcp has joined.
14:59:14 <elliott> Gregor: Wait, non-GNU/Linux has a serious problem: what binutils?
14:59:20 <elliott> I don't know of any maintained ones apart from the GNU ones.
15:10:12 <elliott> <lynx> gnu/linux is about the worst host OS for it
15:10:12 <elliott> <lynx> their system headers are *so* incompatible…
15:10:12 <elliott> <lynx> gcc and glibc specifc, and all that
15:10:12 <elliott> <elliott> (non-GNU)/Linux actually :-)
15:10:17 <elliott> People as crazy as me! Whoo!
15:18:39 <elliott> Gregor: apparently in the EU interfaces aren't copyrightable
15:35:56 <elliott> │ The amount of time saved by this optimization is actually too small to │
15:35:57 <elliott> │ measure. The linker just had to search the library path to find the │
15:35:57 <elliott> │ linker script, so the dentries are cache hot if it has to search the │
15:35:57 <elliott> │ same path again. But it's what glibc does, so we do it too. │
15:38:14 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:38:17 <elliott> 1. Compile uClibc (with gcc). 2. Compile pcc (with gcc and uClibc). 3. Compile uClibc (with pcc). 4. Compile pcc (with new uClibc and pcc).
15:49:39 <elliott> Oh well, utter fail; seems my gcc is not friends with uClibc. And I don't feel like building gcc right now.
15:52:41 <Sgeo> I lost two points on a subjective question
15:53:05 <elliott> coppro: (I'll probably use clang for C++ programs)
15:53:21 -!- augur has joined.
15:53:24 <elliott> And before you say clang has substandard C++ support, it's not nearly as substandard as pcc's C++ support, because it has none.
15:53:25 <Sgeo> "What sort of tasks is pattern matching useful for? Name three"
15:53:49 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/1287296
15:53:57 <elliott> coppro: I could just build a gcc made to work with uClibc, but I'm trying to get away from gcc and its build system, dammit! (I could just use buildroot but I think it wanted me to build a Linux kernel and I like doing that myself thankyouverymuch).
15:54:42 <elliott> "# Supports several hundreds of packages for userspace applications and libraries: X.org stack, Gtk2, Qt, DirectFB, SDL, GStreamer and a large number of network-related and system-related utilities and libraries are supported."
15:55:12 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
15:55:16 <coppro> elliott: 1. Compile clang (with gcc). 2. Compile uClibc (with clang). 3. Compile clang (with clang and uClibc). 4. Compile uClibc (with clang) etc.
15:55:17 -!- nooga has joined.
15:55:28 <elliott> coppro: step 4 is unnecessary
15:56:03 <elliott> coppro: also, i know how to build clang, i just don't want to :) Besides, I bet you that the clang you build in step 1 won't be able to build uClibc programs properly.
15:56:16 <coppro> elliott: why do you say that?
15:56:41 <elliott> coppro: because my gcc can't, and my gcc is just a regular one, like the regular clang you build in step #1
15:56:53 <coppro> elliott: why can't it?
15:56:58 <elliott> coppro: resulting programs segfault
15:57:44 <elliott> coppro: plus -nostdlib -nostdin -Lblahblah -Iblahblah blahblah/{crt1.o,libc.a} is a bit of a mouthful. it is possible i did something wrong out of laziness :)
16:02:51 -!- Sasha has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:04:26 <coppro> elliott: well, clang won't compile uclibc anyways :(
16:04:41 <coppro> stupid inline assembly
16:04:54 <elliott> coppro: I am not that hopeful that pcc will compile uClibc either. :)
16:05:02 <elliott> coppro: wait, clang supports inline asm right?
16:05:14 <coppro> elliott: yeah, but there are some weird gcc-only magicks
16:05:23 <coppro> I imagine pcc will choke on them too
16:05:25 <elliott> coppro: you can disable them
16:05:36 <elliott> at the cost of some speed, but what's that for anti-gcc purity?
16:05:49 <elliott> coppro: you have to make menuconfig to use uclibc anyway :) it makes some silly decisionsb y default
16:06:01 <elliott> it can't decide whether the default config is for desktopish things or embedded devices
16:07:32 <elliott> I am pretty sure that I can't avoid binutils :(
16:15:52 <Sgeo> Almost half of the people got the true/false The string "syf" matches the regular expression "sn?yf" wrong
16:17:12 <elliott> /usr/bin/gcc -c -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/host/include -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/host/usr/include -DIN_GCC -DCROSS_DIRECTORY_STRUCTURE -W -Wall -Wwrite-strings -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wcast-qual -Wold-style-definition -Wc++-compat -Wmissing-format-attribute -pedantic -Wno-long-long -Wno-variadic-macros -Wno-overlength-strings -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I. -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot
16:17:12 <elliott> -2010.08/output/toolchain/gcc-4.4.4/gcc -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/gcc-4.4.4/gcc/. -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/gcc-4.4.4/gcc/../include -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/gcc-4.4.4/gcc/../libcpp/include -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/gmp/include -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/mpfr/include -I/home/elliott/kitten
16:17:13 <elliott> /buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/gcc-4.4.4/gcc/../libdecnumber -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/gcc-4.4.4/gcc/../libdecnumber/dpd -I../libdecnumber /home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/gcc-4.4.4/gcc/gcov-dump.c -o gcov-dump.o
16:17:28 <elliott> coppro: Unix and C, aren't they so simple and lean and wonderful and crisp?
16:17:28 <Sgeo> I'd spam elliott in relatiation, but...
16:21:05 <elliott> "Tinycc can already rebuild itself (for x86 and arm targets), and has previously built a modified subset of an older (2.4) linux kernel. I'm upgrading it to work on more hosts (such as my x86-64 laptop), support more targets (x86-64, mips, powerpc...), and to build more software (especially a current unmodified 2.6 Linux kernel).
16:21:05 <elliott> This project is on hold. I need to replace its code generator with TCG from QEMU, and break it up into a swiss-army-knife binary that can be called as "cc", "ld", "as", "strip", and so on, as appropriate."
16:21:09 <elliott> http://www.landley.net/code/tinycc/ ... but he gave up
16:26:33 -!- Zuu has joined.
16:39:18 <Sgeo> Is there a concept of smallest regex that matches all and only strings within a set of strings?
16:42:06 <coppro> elliott: I imagine it exists
16:42:11 <elliott> coppro: imagine what exists?
16:43:20 -!- coppro has set topic: Number of times elliott has been confused because he /ignored Sgeo: 3 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:44:27 -!- elliott has set topic: Number of times elliott has been confused because he /ignored Sgeo: 3 | Number of times elliott has avoided banging his head against a brick wall because he /ignored Sgeo: countless | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:45:53 * Sgeo pushes elliott's head against a brick wall
16:47:29 <Sgeo> It's a more recognizable word for what you meant. You know the MasterCard commercials... then again, it's not like number of times confused is a price
16:47:58 <Sgeo> I'd say that was a Captain Obvious thing, but since elliott didn't get it
16:49:31 <elliott> coppro: oh you mean the topic?
16:49:36 <elliott> "priceless" makes no sense in that context
16:50:02 <elliott> echo "Welcome to Buildroot" > /home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/target/etc/issue
16:50:37 <elliott> *ugh* and i'm left with a useless pile of disorganised software
16:56:10 <elliott> coppro: HAHAHA IT WORKED FUCK YOU
16:56:45 <coppro> elliott: Sgeo explained it... oh wait
16:57:01 <elliott> coppro: increment the counter and you die :)
16:57:08 <elliott> coppro: I assume it's a mastercard ad reference
16:57:16 <elliott> coppro: but, uhh, "priceless" makes no sense there.
16:57:29 -!- Gregor has set topic: Number of times elliott has been confused because he /ignored Sgeo: 3 | Number of times elliott has avoided banging his head against a brick wall because he /ignored Sgeo: countless | Number of days without oerjan's passionate embrace: 19 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:57:59 -!- elliott has set topic: Number of times elliott has been confused because he /ignored Sgeo: 3 | Number of times elliott has avoided banging his head against a brick wall because he /ignored Sgeo: countless | Number of days without oerjan's passionate embrace: 19 | Number of days since the topic last changed: 39 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:58:20 -!- elliott has set topic: Number of times elliott has been confused because he /ignored Sgeo: 3 | Number of times elliott has avoided banging his head against a brick wall because he /ignored Sgeo: countless | Number of days without oerjan's passionate embrace: 19 | Number of days since the topic last changed: 39 | Number of days the channel has been logged in the new clog directory: See http://tunes.org/~nef/log.
16:58:28 -!- elliott has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D: 34.
16:58:41 -!- elliott has set topic: 42: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:58:58 -!- Sgeo has set topic: 42: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | number of times elliott has changed the topic: countless.
16:59:17 -!- Sgeo has set topic: 42: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | number of times elliott has changed the topic: countless (not technically).
16:59:23 -!- elliott has set topic: ASIEKIERKA FOREVER | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:00:54 -!- Sgeo has set topic: ASIEKIERKA FOREVER | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | amount of topic spam: uncountably infinite.
17:01:13 <Sgeo> Obviously, that's a deliberate lie. Then again, so is infinite
17:01:27 -!- Gregor has set topic: Welcome to #esoteric, the international hub for the occult, voodoo, crystal healing, esoteric topics in computation and programming languages, magick, astrology and spiritual projection | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:01:37 <elliott> Gregor: That upsets ais523 :P
17:01:45 -!- elliott has set topic: praise be unto ais523 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:01:54 <elliott> Gregor: WE CAN'T GO ON WITHOUT OERJAN *OR* AIS523
17:02:29 -!- Gregor has set topic: Welcome to #esoteric, the international hub for the occult, voodoo, crystal healing, esoteric topics in computation and programming languages, magick, astrology and spiritual projection | Praise be unto the enlightened one, Zendu, who currently possesses the mind and being of ais523 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:02:47 -!- elliott has set topic: THERE IS NO AIS523. THERE IS ONLY ZUUL. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:03:04 <Vorpal> <elliott> 00:00:05 <Vorpal> elliott (for log reading): yellow text: "NP is not in P!" XD <elliott> link <-- link how?
17:03:08 -!- Gregor has set topic: Welcome to #esoteric, the international hub for the occult, voodoo, crystal healing, esoteric topics in computation and programming languages, magick, astrology and spiritual projection | Praise be unto the enlightened one, Zenduul, who currently possesses the mind and being of ais523 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:03:10 <elliott> Vorpal: link to whatever page had that
17:03:11 <Vorpal> elliott, it was on the screen in minecraft
17:03:27 -!- elliott has set topic: THERE IS NO ZUUL. THERE IS ONLY GREGOR'S UNWASHED BEARD. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:03:27 <Vorpal> ah the update was release
17:03:38 -!- elliott has set topic: THERE IS NO ZUUL. THERE IS ONLY GREGOR'S UNWASHED BEARD. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
17:04:12 <elliott> Gregor: All purple bananas are poisonous. All Gregor's beards are unwashed.
17:04:23 <Vorpal> elliott, on the minecraft wiki version history. "Known bugs: Pressing F4 spawns a portal to the Nether near the player's location. This is probably debug code that Notch forgot to remove before the release."
17:04:37 <Vorpal> elliott, a bit like cheating though
17:04:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably near = nearest multiple of 8.
17:04:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Since otherwise you could get overlapping portals by making one, moving to the right a little bit, and making another.
17:05:07 <Vorpal> also texture pack support h,m
17:05:09 <elliott> Both would go to the same place; where would you end up if you went into the single Nether one?
17:05:39 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/kitten$ ./buildroot-2010.08/output/staging/usr/bin/x86_64-unknown-linux-uclibc-gcc -static hello.c -o hello
17:05:39 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/kitten$ ls -lh hello
17:05:39 <elliott> -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 11K Nov 10 17:05 hello
17:05:56 <elliott> Haven't configured uClibc much or anything, and it's typical bloated gcc code. But I'm going to use this to bootstrap pcc and uClibc.
17:06:52 <elliott> "Still, two more weeks to try to finish stuff up, so I'm building packages as fast as I can. One of them is gnu libiconv. Its configure stage says:
17:06:52 <elliott> checking for iconv... (cached) no, consider installing GNU libiconv"
17:07:27 <elliott> If it was ghc, telling you to install ghc... that wouldn't be a lie.
17:07:32 <elliott> (At least SBCL can build with CMUCL and CLISP.)
17:08:16 <Vorpal> elliott, "near" seems to be "on top of you"
17:08:27 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:08:33 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/kitten/pcc/pcc$ CC=$HOME/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/staging/usr/bin/x86_64-unknown-linux-uclibc-gcc LDFLAGS="-static" ./configure --prefix=$HOME/kitten/stage1
17:08:36 <Vorpal> elliott, or rather: around you
17:08:47 <elliott> So you end up... inside the portal?
17:08:54 <elliott> /home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/staging/usr/bin/x86_64-unknown-linux-uclibc-gcc -DLIBEXECDIR=\"/home/elliott/kitten/stage1/libexec/\" -DGCC_COMPAT -DINCLUDEDIR=\"/home/elliott/kitten/stage1/include/\" -DPCCINCDIR=\"/home/elliott/kitten/stage1/lib/pcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/0.9.9/include/\" -DPCCLIBDIR=\"/home/elliott/kitten/stage1/lib/pcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/0.9.9/lib/\" -Dos_linux -DTARGMACH=amd64 -Dmach_amd64 -I../.. -I../
17:08:54 <elliott> ../os/linux -I../../mip -I../../arch/amd64 -g -O2 -Wall -Wmissing-prototypes -Wstrict-prototypes -Wshadow -Wsign-compare -c cc.c
17:09:05 <elliott> make[2]: ./mkext: Command not found
17:10:31 <elliott> BUT WILL IT BLEND^Wwork with uClibc?
17:10:40 <Gregor> elliott: LDFLAGS is a wonky concept in modern times anyway; are ldflags the flags passed to ld, or are they flags used for linking? Since they don't accept the same input, it's a sticky situation. There's no "correct" use of LDFLAGS.
17:10:50 <Vorpal> huh, why did this one back to earth spawn deep below the ground
17:10:52 <elliott> Gregor: Did I mention fuck software?
17:10:55 <Vorpal> I thought they spawned on the surface?
17:11:12 <elliott> Yes, I mention-fucked software.
17:11:44 <elliott> I... fucked it with... mentions.
17:14:56 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/kitten$ ./stage1/bin/pcc -nostdinc -nostdlibs -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/uClibc_dev/usr/include -I/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/gcc-4.4.4/include -L/home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/uClibc_dev/usr/lib hello.c -o hello
17:14:57 <elliott> /home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/uClibc_dev/usr/include/stdio.h:34: error: cannot find 'stddef.h'
17:15:13 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/toolchain$ find . -name stddef.h
17:15:13 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/toolchain$
17:15:32 <elliott> Oh, it's a Linux include :P
17:24:51 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/kitten$ ls /home/elliott/kitten/buildroot-2010.08/output/toolchain/uClibc_dev/usr/lib/
17:24:51 <elliott> crt1.o crti.o crtn.o libc.so libm.so
17:25:27 <elliott> ./stage1/bin/pcc -nostdinc -nostdlib -static -I/home/elliott/kitten/stage1/lib/pcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/0.9.9/include -I$TC/uClibc_dev/usr/include -I$TC/linux/include/linux -L$TC/uClibc_dev/usr/lib hello.c $TC/uClibc-0.9.31/lib/libc.a -o hello
17:25:34 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/kitten$ ./hello
17:40:33 <Vorpal> aaaargh I think these portals are cross connected
17:41:13 <Vorpal> as in, if I go through A in nether and then back I end up at B. If I go through B in nether and back I end up at A
17:41:58 <elliott> Vorpal: CAN I HAVE THE UPDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
17:42:08 * elliott mauled by a wild pack of bears
17:44:04 <elliott> I was saying "can I have the update" which you have stated you won't give; it was therefore a joke :P
17:44:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Quick, copy your jars away so you can have portal-spawning action when it's fixed.
17:44:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Holy shit, the Minecraft purchase page is in Swedish X-D
17:47:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Give me a good reason not to set up an OpenGenera partition.
17:47:50 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean.. native?
17:47:57 <Vorpal> elliott, which page is in Swedish?
17:53:31 <fizzie> Hm; I also built two portals in the real world -- for faster traffic between my two buildings -- and even though they've spaced pretty far apart, something like at least a hundred steps, they both mapped to the same portal. But for me it works so that if I go into Nether from either, I get out of the single portal, but if I go in, I always end up in just one of the portals, the one I made first.
17:54:00 <fizzie> So as a fast-traffic system, it only works unidirectionally.
17:54:01 <elliott> Thank you for purchasing Minecraft! Your status should update soon, or within a week if you paid by e-check.
17:54:01 <elliott> If it doesn't, send me an email (include the transaction ID and username) and we'll sort it out.
17:54:05 <elliott> Vorpal: The PayPal page, by default.
17:58:44 <elliott> Vorpal: All I need now is a better graphics card to go with it. :p
18:02:01 <elliott> Vorpal: fancy rendering is actually quite fast for me
18:10:55 <Gregor> `echo How slow am I today?
18:11:24 <Gregor> `echo How slow am I now?
18:11:53 <elliott> Vorpal: 1. Find tiny little rock -- well, grass patch -- in a little passage of water between two islands
18:11:58 <elliott> 2. Put all your blocks down on one square
18:12:29 <elliott> 5. Watch spiders and shit on the islands below
18:13:29 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm going to F4 in the day on top of this tower :)
18:14:18 <elliott> (The shelter thing actually works well, but you have to find a square of buildableness on water close to wherever you are now)
18:14:39 <Gregor> WhatTF is so compelling about Minecraft anyway.
18:14:40 <elliott> You can't have said mhm to what I just said, you said it right as I did :P
18:14:54 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, they're delicious.
18:15:17 <elliott> Gregor: Now imagine doing Lego with huge, life-sized blocks in an endless interesting pretty sandbox.
18:15:19 <Vorpal> elliott, did you know that furnaces continue to operate while you close the dialog for them?
18:15:24 <elliott> Gregor: Also, monsters. And you can dig.
18:15:29 <Vorpal> elliott, meaning you can run several at the same time
18:15:36 <elliott> Vorpal: I haven't done furnaces yet :P
18:16:25 <elliott> I think the creepers have all figured out that I'm in the water
18:16:53 <Vorpal> elliott, also wrt running game while tabbed away: open inventory, furnace or crafting bench then just move pointer out of the window
18:17:20 <elliott> Vorpal: I've been opening inventory and then alt-tabbing away, yes. But it's hard to see what's going on if you do that (say, watching stuff at night).
18:17:50 <Vorpal> elliott, well I'm indoors and running 6 furnaces in parallel atm...
18:29:08 <fizzie> In multiplayer games, you can press 't' to open the "talk dialog", which is just a prompt at the bottom of the screen: that doesn't obscure things so much than inventories/furnaces/such.
18:29:20 <fizzie> But t doesn't do anything in a single-player session, so it's no help there.
18:29:29 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:29:40 <elliott> fizzie: Now how do I make nights go faster?
18:29:54 -!- madbr has joined.
18:30:07 <fizzie> I don't know: I'm sure there's some sort of a hack for that.
18:30:27 <fizzie> I usually just do some mining at night: it's dark under-ground anyway.
18:30:38 <elliott> fizzie: I'm on top of a pole. :p
18:32:21 <elliott> Hey, someone finally got around to making an Emacs-esque thing that actually has a real browser in it. (And IRC too; it seems to embed gtk stuff.) In Haskell! http://www.flickr.com/photos/48809572@N02/ Bit strange though.
18:33:02 <madbr> I wonder how expensive chip pins were in the 90s
18:33:29 <elliott> Vorpal: totally gonna spawn a portal on this pole now
18:33:40 <madbr> like, if you make your mem bus 32bits instead of 16bits, that's 16 more pins of cpu and 16 more dram pins and 16 more copper tracers etc
18:33:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Suddenly, nothing happened :P
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18:33:59 <elliott> Vorpal: I just made a portal appear on top of another portal.
18:34:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Step 1. Go up a tall pole. Step 2. Press F4 a lot.
18:34:49 <madbr> (but then again you have twice the ram bandwidth...)
18:38:43 <elliott> http://imgur.com/8C2v8.png
18:38:43 <elliott> http://imgur.com/El0iP.png
18:38:49 <elliott> http://imgur.com/CU5CA.png
18:38:53 <elliott> http://imgur.com/z03kU.png
18:39:16 <elliott> Eventually they started spawning right next to my pole (on water, even?) and then one spawned on top of me and I walked off the pole to my death by mistake.
18:40:00 * Gregor still has no comprehension of what the appeal of this game is.
18:40:36 <Gregor> I was never much for legos unless I had something very utilitarian to do :P
18:40:52 <elliott> Gregor: Well, you could drum up a fake sense of superiority to all the Lego fans or you could just accept that it appeals to everyone else* but you.
18:40:55 <elliott> *for some definition of everyone else
18:40:56 <madbr> dunno, it's creative, open ended, looks nice
18:41:10 <elliott> madbr: Has GODDAMN TERRIFYING SPIDER HISSES.
18:41:11 <Gregor> I prefer a fake sense of superiority.
18:41:21 <madbr> not if you play multiplayer
18:41:33 <nooga> let's wait for OpenMinecraft
18:42:00 <fizzie> There are enemy-spawners in multiplayer too -- in dungeons -- and the enemies they create are unkillable, except by fire.
18:43:56 <fizzie> Yes, a very general sort of bug, the server doesn't track health for anyone.
18:44:00 <fizzie> So the players are unkillable too.
18:44:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, so the enemies cause no real harm then
18:45:40 <fizzie> Creepers still blow stuff up.
18:46:18 <madbr> so can players with tnt :D
18:46:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, obsidian. I'm making the lower parts of the walls of this fort I'm working on in obsidian
18:46:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, only week point now is the doors
18:46:56 <Vorpal> hm not sure how to deal with that
18:47:02 <fizzie> Obsidian is a bit boring to mine for.
18:47:10 <fizzie> Well, doors don't work in multiplayer either. :p
18:47:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, true, it takes ages
18:47:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I play locally
18:47:54 <fizzie> Do creepers blow up iron doors?
18:48:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, so far I used peaceful mode because I have been learning how the game works.
18:48:39 -!- augur has joined.
18:48:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, seems TNT is able to blow it up
18:48:53 <fizzie> Then creepers will too, I guess.
18:48:55 <elliott> <nooga> let's wait for OpenMinecraft
18:49:02 <fizzie> I've done a bit of obsidian farming, but that's pretty slow too.
18:49:08 <elliott> Unlike you, nooga, we're really not that concerned about the price of four packs of cigarettes.
18:49:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Stacked a portal on top of a portal yet?
18:49:58 <elliott> I'm trying to get one close to me so that I can see what happens if you go into an airportal.
18:50:11 <fizzie> Probably it just maps to a single Nether portal. :/
18:50:49 <coppro> Netcraft is currently in development, btw
18:51:25 <Vorpal> elliott, no I don't want a silly looking game world :P
18:51:33 <oklopol> "<Sgeo> Is there a concept of smallest regex that matches all and only strings within a set of strings?" <<< you are given a finite set of strings, and you ask whether there's a smallest size of regex that can be used to match exactly those strings?
18:51:36 <elliott> coppro: MineBSD is dead, Netcraft confirms it.
18:51:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I actually play in a serious way
18:51:47 <Gregor> elliott: ... MineBSD???
18:51:52 <elliott> fizzie: You don't know that!
18:51:54 <Vorpal> elliott, I plan, construct, build and so on.
18:51:57 <oklopol> or are you hoping for a minimality result like the one for DFA's
18:51:58 <elliott> Gregor: Yes. It's BSD by Minecraft players.
18:52:21 <Gregor> So, BSD implemented in a buggy Java framework? :P
18:52:30 <madbr> where can I find info on designing a cpu instruction set
18:52:32 * coppro had to google it so that he could be 100% sure it doesn't actually exist
18:52:49 <elliott> Gregor: Since when is it buggy?
18:52:58 <Gregor> madbr: Look up the details on MIPS' instruction set. Expand.
18:53:10 <elliott> fizzie: Interesting choice of portal placement -- it seemingly ate up some of my huge tower and put a portal there.
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18:53:27 <Gregor> elliott: A friend of mine told me that he checked for exception handlers and MineCraft catches an obscene number of NullPointerExceptions.
18:53:43 <madbr> gregor: doesn't the MIPS need cache to run fast
18:53:51 <elliott> I can think of a billion reasons for that and they're all to do with third-party libraries, Gregor :P
18:53:53 <coppro> Netcraft is implemented mostly in C, but with C++ to interface with Bullet
18:54:06 <Gregor> madbr: All real CPUs need a cache to run fast.
18:54:06 <oklopol> i had a dream that Gregor was in turku, and we agreed to meet, he said "you are the only pervert from the internet i'm ever going to meet irl"
18:54:31 <coppro> madbr: this is because they're lame
18:54:42 <coppro> they can't do quantum either
18:54:44 <Gregor> No, I meet lots of perverts I know from the webertubes.
18:55:13 <elliott> fizzie: Okay, gone in an airy one and arrived at a Nether portal.
18:55:22 <coppro> (btw, quantum computing is insane. And awesome. And insane. etc.)
18:55:28 * Gregor vaguely wonders if JSMIPS would run faster with some kind of caching :P
18:57:32 <elliott> Gregor: Wouldn't that just come out to an array access to cache an array access? :P
18:57:47 <elliott> Unless you have 32 thousand variables or so. And even then it'd be variable access vs. array access. :P
18:58:37 <Gregor> In fact it would be more like array access to cache /map/ access.
18:58:53 <Gregor> Since my vmem ended up having to be a map.
18:58:58 <madbr> how hard to design are caches anyways
18:59:31 <Gregor> madbr: You lurched wildly from "instruction set" to "actual chip" here :P
19:00:13 <madbr> it's hard to design an instruction set that runs fast if you don't know what sort of memory architecture you're dealing with :D
19:00:48 <coppro> netcraft = gratis minecraft
19:01:24 <madbr> gregor: my goal would be something that can do fast resampling
19:01:32 <coppro> I predict a 30% chance of actually getting something decent
19:01:42 <coppro> nooga: a bunch of people
19:01:47 <madbr> for stuff like texture mapping, music playing...
19:01:58 <nooga> who is in this bunch then?
19:02:07 <coppro> just zeeze guyz, you know?
19:02:21 <coppro> why do you care so much>
19:02:22 <madbr> like, if you can do fast enough resampling and multiplication and mixing, you don't need any real sound hardware
19:03:01 <Gregor> madbr: Can't help ya :P
19:04:16 <madbr> like, that's the problem with amigas, 286s, 386s... it has to load every instruction from DRAM and you have extra wasted instructions for managing the loop, incrementing variables etc
19:06:45 <madbr> whereas RISC instruction set makes plenty sense when the loop instructions are all cached, the DRAM access patterns come out in blocks which is ideal for stuff like EDO (ie on a Pentium or something like that)
19:08:10 <madbr> but if you don't have cache, instructions like add register, [memory] make sense
19:08:51 <nooga> coppro: cloning minecraft shouldn't be hard
19:08:59 <madbr> or even weird string instructions like STOSB
19:09:06 <elliott> minecraft is pretty complex by now
19:09:28 <elliott> Vorpal: please list the things you can do in minecraft to nooga
19:09:33 <nooga> infinite, procedural maps?
19:09:59 <coppro> minecraft does infinity really dumb-like
19:10:11 <elliott> coppro: it's been made less dumbly as of recently, no?
19:10:13 <elliott> nooga: making a good procedural map generator isn't easy. especially biomes. also, multiplayer
19:10:19 <elliott> nooga: also, good caverns and shit.
19:10:19 <coppro> elliott: by necessity, smoewhat
19:10:28 <elliott> nooga: also, the things you list aren't exactly trivial.
19:10:34 <madbr> gregor: Mostly I'm hesitating between 16bit design where you know how much cycles everything takes so you can play off that, and with lots of Amiga-like effects but there's less memory bandwidth
19:10:42 <elliott> nooga: no, it isn't; the old minecraft generators are not nearly as good as the new ones
19:11:05 * Gregor lawls at reading nooga's line as madbr's line.
19:11:40 <coppro> elliott: the server originally just retained the whole thing in memory
19:11:50 <coppro> so if you went farther and farther, it would just slow down and slow down
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19:12:02 <madbr> or 32bit-ish design with something like fast-page or EDO dram and a frame buffer
19:12:08 <coppro> My understanding is that optimizations have been made, but this is still fundamentally a problem
19:13:35 <Gregor> Paging would help with that if it wasn't Java 8-D
19:14:10 <oklopol> nooga: maybe you could use sand automata for the beaches?
19:14:21 <coppro> netcraft's approach could still be exploited, but is far less dumb
19:14:43 <coppro> basically it stores the generator, the seed, and a diff
19:14:57 <coppro> so simply venturing out into infinity leaves no trace in memory
19:15:30 <coppro> (and I assume the diff is appropriately compressed so the only way to run up the memory usage is to actually make a large number of changes)
19:15:31 <oklopol> but if things are forgotten, a lot of the funness of the game is forgotten too
19:15:43 <coppro> oklopol: no, changes are retained in the diff
19:18:19 <oklopol> i got my maturity exam thingie done for my bachelor's
19:18:26 <oklopol> so now i can switch to math
19:18:56 <oklopol> that's what they call it, i don't know what it's official translation is
19:19:55 <oklopol> it's this simple test where they check you did your bachelor's yourself, and know finnish.
19:20:05 <oklopol> or the language the thing was written in
19:20:05 <nooga> coppro: that's what i would do
19:21:17 <oklopol> also i'm gonna get my first publication i think, but it's just proceedings
19:22:01 <nooga> coppro: i would be fun too make slopes as seen in TTD
19:23:03 <oklopol> did you think of matriculation exam or smth?
19:23:06 <oklopol> i don't know what a-levels is
19:23:12 <cheater99> a-levels is at the end of high school.
19:23:19 <oklopol> yeah that's called matriculation here
19:23:19 <coppro> oklopol: a-levels = high school exams, as I understand it
19:23:31 <coppro> it's called diploma exams in my home province
19:23:50 <cheater99> http://gosu-lang.org/comparison.shtml
19:24:06 <coppro> I thought that was a joke
19:24:36 <coppro> hah, I like the last one
19:24:44 <elliott> wtf happened to my ignores?
19:24:54 <coppro> also lol at 'reified generics'
19:25:00 <coppro> sounds like a wonderful way to make generics suck more
19:25:05 <oklopol> yeah he's sneaky like that
19:25:15 <cheater99> i hadn't changed my nick in months
19:25:24 <oklopol> cheater99: sure, but you'll have to pay me
19:25:27 <elliott> coppro: I am tired of tables that have all "Y"s on the product in question.
19:25:36 <elliott> coppro: could there be a more obvious example of bias?
19:25:42 <cheater99> and yet alise keeps on taking me off ignore and then pretending she forgot to add some bit.
19:25:42 <elliott> Put some shit you don't have yet in there!
19:25:47 <coppro> they could also have all Ns for the other stuff
19:25:57 <elliott> <coppro> oklopol: a-levels = high school exams, as I understand it
19:26:13 <elliott> <coppro> elliott: the server originally just retained the whole thing in memory
19:26:16 <elliott> who plays minecraft on servers
19:26:23 <elliott> it's paged out to disk now :p
19:26:35 <elliott> <coppro> basically it stores the generator, the seed, and a diff
19:26:35 <elliott> <coppro> so simply venturing out into infinity leaves no trace in memory
19:26:41 <elliott> it now saves the chunks to disk
19:26:52 <elliott> coppro: plz see http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Chunks
19:27:17 <coppro> it does that chunking thing
19:27:20 <oklopol> cheater99: WOW that's where i draw the line!
19:27:21 <coppro> but if you leave a chunk
19:27:26 <coppro> that chucnk stays around
19:28:51 <pikhq> It amuses me greatly that fuel efficiency can be measured in square meters.
19:28:52 <elliott> Sgeo: absolutely very insightful; cheater99: you too
19:29:04 <pikhq> (1L/100km = 0.01m^2)
19:29:50 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: please list the things you can do in minecraft to nooga
19:29:56 <pikhq> Hooray, base SI units.
19:30:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I delegate this to you and to fizzie
19:30:12 <cheater99> elliott is msging me with cusswords
19:30:26 <elliott> cheater99: i took you off ignore. nice try
19:30:33 <oklopol> so, if you took a cylinder containing the fuel of the length you can drive, it'd be the cylinder's thingie area
19:30:51 <Vorpal> <coppro> My understanding is that optimizations have been made, but this is still fundamentally a problem <-- I believe it will unload chunks that are some distance away
19:31:00 <oklopol> so actually i don't think it's at all funny anymore
19:31:01 <nooga> coppro: is netcraft closed-source?
19:31:28 <oklopol> because that's what's being measured, "how much fuel you need to move one differential forward"
19:31:32 <coppro> nooga: source will be released when it's ready for first release, is my understanding
19:31:41 <Vorpal> <coppro> netcraft's approach could still be exploited, but is far less dumb <-- netcraft?
19:31:42 <cheater99> has anyone ever run a turing machine on a GOL?
19:31:49 <elliott> Vorpal: a clone of minecraft
19:31:53 <elliott> coppro: good to know they're, uh, being creative
19:31:56 <elliott> coppro: even in their naming
19:32:14 <cheater99> i've seen some GOL's that had the name "turing machine" etc, of course the proof eluded me. i'm not much into GOL.
19:32:17 <Vorpal> elliott, oh. googling netcraft just gives netcraft.com results. Which are not very relevant here
19:32:20 <elliott> personally i couldn't have thought of "Let's make a game that's like Minecraft... and... yes."
19:32:36 <Vorpal> elliott, got a link to netcraft?
19:32:49 <elliott> it's people at coppro's uni
19:32:52 <elliott> demonstrating how creative they are
19:33:25 <oklopol> cheater99: they were turing machines
19:33:42 <pikhq> Erm, wrong order of magnitude.
19:33:58 <Vorpal> <elliott> demonstrating how creative they are <-- XD
19:34:10 <cheater99> oklopol: have you ever looked into the problem of running turing machines on GOL's more in-depth than just looking at GOL presets?
19:34:20 <elliott> Vorpal: well could you have thought of the idea "it's like minecraft, but we take the mine bit off and add net"?!
19:34:50 <Vorpal> elliott, so no mining?
19:35:23 <elliott> Vorpal: no you just net things up
19:35:31 <elliott> and then craft them into hideous corpse art
19:35:39 <oklopol> i don't know JCGOL, same rules?
19:35:47 <Vorpal> elliott, like the zombie pigmen ;P
19:35:50 <pikhq> ... Bweheheh. That is, of course, the integral of V(x) from 0 to distance travelled, with respect to x. It makes some amount of sense, too!
19:35:58 <oklopol> cheater99: what else is there?
19:37:11 <cheater99> it does seem like fairly useful research
19:37:16 <oklopol> i might if there was a high-level explanation, but most of it consists of guns etc so actually you could probably just look at it
19:37:37 <cheater99> but the thing is the single cells are so very very simple
19:37:46 <cheater99> they're even simpler than transistors you'd think
19:38:30 <cheater99> they usually just need connection to some neighbour cells
19:38:51 <cheater99> which could mean, you make a cpu which just has those simple cells, and that's that
19:39:03 <oklopol> surely it's interesting, but proofs that things can simulate turing machines aren't usually considered very important
19:39:16 <oklopol> because they can always do that
19:39:41 <cheater99> a rubik's cube can't simulate a turing machine.
19:39:58 <cheater99> i think GOL could be an interesting processor architecture
19:40:09 <cheater99> sure, you need several cells to signify a single bit
19:40:15 <cheater99> but those cells could be so much smaller
19:40:28 <cheater99> like, almost single molecules probably
19:40:37 <oklopol> you're doing a lot of useless stuff, guns and all that, and still the rule is complicated
19:40:57 <oklopol> even wireworld would be better
19:41:33 <cheater99> but you could probably come up with something crazy like say growing peptide crystals where each molecule strand is neatly crafted into the network and represents a single GOL cell.
19:41:41 -!- Zuu has joined.
19:41:56 <cheater99> this is just pure sci-fi, but i wouldn't be surprised if it were possible
19:42:07 <oklopol> in gol, you have signal crossing *everywhere*
19:42:25 <oklopol> the neighborhood already forces it
19:43:08 <Vorpal> cheater99, ... transistors don't need address lines...
19:43:11 <oklopol> well, you know, you can't put down tiles on the plane so that they are gol-connected
19:44:01 <oklopol> because a's connection to its bottom-right crosses a's right neighbor's connection to bottom-left
19:44:02 <elliott> Vorpal: minecraft just got updated
19:44:06 <elliott> Vorpal: wanna bet f4 no longer works?
19:44:24 <Vorpal> elliott, well I have a copy, anyway I have heaps of obsidian
19:44:35 <elliott> Vorpal: no, newer than that
19:44:37 <cheater99> Vorpal: i was thinking of FPGAs there for a second
19:44:48 <Vorpal> elliott, I have a copy of the one where f4 works I mean
19:44:50 <cheater99> Vorpal: since normal CPUs are not as programmable as a GOL board
19:45:12 <Vorpal> cheater99, sure they are. But only during design
19:45:22 <elliott> Vorpal: wow, there's *two* minepedias...
19:45:24 <elliott> http://minepedia.net/index.php?title=Main_Page
19:45:34 <madbr> what's a GOL board?
19:45:42 <Vorpal> elliott, that one I haven't seen
19:46:10 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I get connection error to minecraft.net
19:46:21 <madbr> what, someone did a game of life simulator with lots of parallelism on some custom arch?
19:46:21 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:46:55 <cheater99> madbr: we're considering gol AS the arch
19:49:38 <elliott> "here is the kicker, lava produces heat, energy at a certain frequency that is harmful to us, just as we can see light because we perceive things through this 4x box, of 3 dimensions of space, and 1 dimension of time.
19:49:38 <elliott> Quantum, we understand that waves and particles are one in the same, that particles are waves. So lets just say that monsters are made of of particles that are exist in a certain frequency that is not effected by the same frequency as heat."
19:49:42 <elliott> (comment on minecraft blog)
19:51:06 <elliott> "Now, you might think that is silly, because it is heat. I mean, every burns at a high enough temperature, right? wrong. Since heat is bound by the existence of time, thus the bound by the speed of light and all the energy required by it. As things get hotter and hotter, eventually they start producing gamma rays and such, etc, but it gets to a point where the energy required to make more heat goes off to infinity when you get temperatures that h
19:51:06 <elliott> ave energies that have frequencies near the speed of light, so thus, things that are made up of particles that are smaller than light can perceive and such, can be non effected by heat, as heat will have to break out of the existence of time before it can effect these particles... but if it breaks out of time, then it is not longer heat, per say."
19:51:12 <elliott> "So lets just say that monsters are made up of atomic, subatom, etheric, and subetheric particles that exist on a frequency where, quantumly, they are visible by light, and can effect physical objects, but their physical existence is outside the bounds of our reality and heat do not effect them.
19:51:12 <elliott> I am not saying this is the reason, I am just saying that when you look into things from a quantum mechanical level, everything becomes waves and probabilities. everything is possible. =)
19:51:14 <elliott> enjoy, minecraft is awesome."
19:51:38 <elliott> i have a better explanation: you can punch trees, therefore lava doesn't harm ghasts Q.E.D.
19:51:42 <ais523> elliott: you know, if he'd just said that monsters were transparent to infrared, it would have been a lot simpler
19:52:05 <ais523> even though that reasoning doesn't really deal with conducted or convected heat...
19:52:53 <elliott> ais523: it doesn't help his quantum pseudo-reasoning that you can bash them with swords, either :)
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19:53:48 <oklopol> that was the biggest bundle of crazy nonsensicality i've seen this week
19:53:55 <oklopol> i've been ircing too little :(
19:54:02 <elliott> Vorpal: HAHA -- one of the possible names for Nether was "Norway"
19:55:13 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/dx88i/notch_if_you_read_this_please_leave_the_fire/c13mm12?context=1
19:56:37 <elliott> "I think you should call is Steve." "That would be the funniest damn thing he could do. Construct menacing portal...enter menacing portal....'You have entered....STEVE""
19:56:49 <nooga> THIS IS AN ULTIMATE GAME
19:57:08 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSOQGazo7Oo
19:58:16 <ais523> I'm still on just-online mode, when I try to do about 8 things at once and so does my computer
19:58:52 <elliott> ais523: YOUR COMPUTER WILL RUN FASTER WITH KITTEN
19:59:14 <elliott> ais523: It's got static linking. That's what plants crave!
19:59:15 <Gregor> `translate Hey guys, mimi fasta kutafsiri amri.
19:59:16 <HackEgo> Hey guys, I fixed the translate command.
19:59:29 <HackEgo> You get NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY sir!
19:59:35 <elliott> Gregor: Translate is LAME :P
19:59:47 <Gregor> `translateto sv smorgasbord
20:00:06 <Gregor> `translateto sv elliott's translation method is so rife with lame.
20:00:09 <HackEgo> Elliotts översättning metoden är så fulla av lama.
20:00:12 <elliott> `translateto it Dirty Hungarian Phrasebook
20:00:17 <elliott> `wl en it Dirty Hungarian Phrasebook
20:00:18 <HackEgo> You get NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY sir!
20:00:27 <ais523> elliott: is static linking actually faster?
20:00:28 <elliott> `wl en it Dirty_Hungarian_Phrasebook
20:00:29 <oklopol> computer translation is getting pretty scary, because they are making less and less errors in grammar, but just... completely misunderstand everything
20:00:38 <Gregor> Anyway, translatefromto actually uses the Google APIs now :P
20:00:39 <elliott> Yours doesn't translate "dirty"
20:00:39 <oklopol> so it's like reading the translation of a native retard
20:00:42 <Gregor> No more trying to parse HTML.
20:00:51 <elliott> ais523: the linker is a lot simpler, so it's faster, and starting executables is much faster
20:01:01 <elliott> ais523: (since it doesn't have to load all the libraries)
20:01:01 <ais523> I'd expect it to be slower because it couldn't keep libc in the cache
20:01:08 <ais523> although I suppose it depends on how often it context-switches
20:01:15 <elliott> ais523: Uhh... you do realise Linux does sharing of all the libcs?
20:01:15 <ais523> perhaps it starts faster and runs slower?
20:01:20 <nooga> `wl en pl dirty hungarian phrasebook
20:01:22 <HackEgo> You get NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY sir!
20:01:24 <elliott> You never have two copies of libc functions in RAM with static linking.
20:01:25 <ais523> elliott: indeed, but how can it do that with static linking?
20:01:39 <ais523> that's pretty ingenious, actually
20:01:47 <ais523> sort-of dynamic unstaticing
20:01:51 <elliott> ais523: I'm not sure at what granularity Linux does it, but it's good enough
20:02:19 <elliott> ais523: but yes, linker is a lot faster, starting executables is a lot faster, runtime is the same really
20:02:44 <Gregor> "You never have two copies of libc functions in RAM with static linking." Well this smells like total BS.
20:03:13 <elliott> well function may be false
20:03:17 <elliott> but there is most definitely sharing.
20:03:24 <elliott> I know that Plan 9 does pervasive sharing
20:03:32 <elliott> Aren’t statically linked executables consuming more memory?
20:03:33 <elliott> We believe that due to the small size of the base system the opposite will be the case. First of all, the kernel will load each static executable’s .rodata, .data, .text and .comment sections only once for all instances into memory. Second, because each static binary has only been linked with the object files necessary, it has already been optimised at linkage time for memory consumption. When loading it, we don’t require the kernel to map al
20:03:33 <elliott> l dependent dynamic libraries into memory from which our binary might only use 5% of the functions they provide. So, in reality, the memory footprint is becoming less, and the dead code hold in memory (or paged) reduces overall consumption. This is also true for programs, like surf, which don’t use all webkit/gtk/glib functions.
20:03:50 <elliott> ok, so less sharing than plan 9
20:04:01 <elliott> ais523: also, more will fit into cache as the libc is a lot smaller than glibc :p
20:04:17 <elliott> http://9fans.net/archive/2002/02/21 plan 9 sharing
20:04:25 <Gregor> Yes, it will share each INSTANCE of the SAME program, but it won't share bits of it across programs.
20:04:26 <ais523> elliott: the plan 9 statement there seems to imply that it shares .rodata and .text, etc., for two programs with the same executable, not any two programs
20:04:37 <ais523> sharing between two different programs would be rather harder
20:04:40 <elliott> i do recall systems with more sharing
20:04:58 <ais523> especially as, given static linking, the functions aren't going to be in the same relative positions in memory in the two programs
20:05:06 <elliott> ais523: anyway, i don't know of any reports saying static linking has slower runtime performance.
20:05:21 <elliott> ais523: and it seems unlikely to me, especially when your libc is *much* more compact than glibc
20:07:06 <elliott> maybe i should read linux from scratch :)
20:07:20 <ais523> hmm, really, there should be a two-tier libc
20:07:32 <ais523> one that does everything that C99 and POSIX require, the other for all the GNU extensions
20:08:18 <pikhq> elliott: Not much of LFS is actually special information for building a base Linux system, BTW.
20:08:26 <elliott> ais523: you can do the latter with gcc: just append "|| rm *.c" to the command line, without the quotes
20:08:30 <elliott> pikhq: I can't parse your sentence
20:08:41 <pikhq> elliott: Most of it is just "here's how you build foo".
20:09:09 <pikhq> elliott: Basically, after you've got the toolchain up and running you're just installing exceptionally common dependencies.
20:10:17 <elliott> pikhq: ISTR some part of recent perls depend on static linking :)
20:10:27 <ais523> elliott: I don't see how deleting all C files if the compile fails would help
20:10:33 <pikhq> elliott: And LFS has you build a conventional glibc system.
20:11:03 <elliott> ais523: it removes the GNU dependencies from all the .c files in the directory
20:11:14 <ais523> meanwhile, a sign of Slashdot strangeness: I've just metamoderated two of the comments I've just moderated
20:11:15 <elliott> (assuming your compile is failing because of missing gnu extensions)
20:11:32 <ais523> in other words, I'm currently keeping tabs on my own behaviour
20:11:41 <ais523> elliott: that's not what I want
20:11:47 <elliott> ais523: Who moderates the moderatormen?
20:11:52 <ais523> the GNU extensions are often useful, but they should be in a separate library
20:11:59 <ais523> that's different from arbitrarily deleting programs that use GNU extensions
20:12:06 <elliott> usually the gnu extensions are useful ideas, implemented terribly and with a terrible api :)
20:12:11 <elliott> nobody really uses them apart from gnu though.
20:12:17 <ais523> (especially as gcc is entirely capable of compiling programs that use them...)
20:12:29 <ais523> elliott: the course on C I'm teaching uses GNU extensions
20:12:35 <ais523> not by my choice, incidentally
20:12:42 <ais523> it makes a lot of other dubious decisions, too
20:12:56 <ais523> I think GNU have managed to successfully embrace-and-extend C
20:13:00 <pikhq> elliott: Linux's sharing works *precisely* the same as Plan 9's. The only stuff that isn't shared (and even that, I'm pretty sure, is COW) is stuff that's writable.
20:13:15 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:13:26 <elliott> ais523: too many people are complacent with bad design and tactics just because they're perceived as supporters of freedom
20:13:43 <elliott> who calls out GNU for encouraging people to go beyond the standards and write code that isn't portable to non-GNU systems?
20:13:55 <pikhq> And it functions just the same for dynamic libraries. The only gain dynamic libraries get you is that there's only a single copy of each symbol floating around, rather than a single copy per program using it.
20:14:03 <ais523> elliott: I'm not even sure /how/ to call them out
20:14:08 <elliott> pikhq: Right. But if the symbols are tiny, it doesn't make any sense.
20:14:15 <elliott> ais523: you can't, really; any anti-gnu site would just be dismissed as FUD
20:14:25 <elliott> ais523: I have become rather cynical towards GNU.
20:14:38 <elliott> pikhq: Right. But if the symbols are tiny, it doesn't make any difference.
20:14:56 <elliott> pikhq: For instance, a system running dynamically-linked glibc executables will use the same or more memory than one using statically-linked uClibc executables.
20:14:58 <pikhq> Which makes whether or not you get a benefit from dynamic or static linking, well, complex.
20:15:08 <ais523> elliott: the advertising clause in the GPLv2 is pretty bad (not nearly as bad as the one in the GFDL...)
20:15:19 <elliott> ais523: it has an *advertising clause*?
20:15:23 <elliott> pikhq: You get benefits, just maybe not memory ones.
20:15:37 <ais523> elliott: if you modify a non-interactive GPLv2 program to become interactive
20:15:43 <ais523> then it has to put up a GPL blurb when it loads
20:15:44 <pikhq> elliott: Well, yes. I was just concerning myself with the memory and disk usage for this.
20:15:50 <elliott> ais523: does v3 have that?
20:16:05 <elliott> pikhq: Disk space is definitely a win, measure static uClibc vs. dynamic glibc sometime. (Okay, browsers are bigger.)
20:16:38 <elliott> pikhq: But still, I have disk. And RAM. Do you?
20:16:39 <pikhq> elliott: If you've got a lot of static binaries, there *might* be a benefit from dynamic linking.
20:16:58 <pikhq> Using the precise same libraries, of course...
20:16:59 <cheater99> ais523: have you read the new chapters in "learn you a haskell"?
20:17:00 <ais523> elliott: yes to some extent, but it's been toned down from v2's
20:17:06 <ais523> cheater99: not recently; I read the one about zippers
20:17:23 <pikhq> Glibc ends up producing gigantic dynamic libraries compared with uClibc's static libraries, of course.
20:17:37 <ais523> <GPLv3> An interactive user interface displays "Appropriate Legal Notices" to the extent that it includes a convenient and prominently visible feature that (1) displays an appropriate copyright notice, and (2) tells the user that there is no warranty for the work (except to the extent that warranties are provided), that licensees may convey the work under this License, and how to view a copy of this License. If the interface presents a list of user
20:17:38 <ais523> commands or options, such as a menu, a prominent item in the list meets this criterion.
20:18:19 <ais523> if you're interested, that clause (in v2 and v3) has only triggered twice in me writing GPL programs: C-INTERCAL and jettyplay (both of which were based on previous GPL code)
20:18:58 <ais523> C-INTERCAL handles it with a license blurb when starting up the debugger; jettyplay has a comment about the GPL as the default status bar when it loads
20:19:10 <cheater99> ais523: how long did it take to write c-intercal?
20:19:18 <ais523> cheater99: I didn't write it from scratch
20:19:25 <ais523> I think esr wrote the original version in a weekend, but it didn't actually work
20:19:31 <ais523> I've spent years on it, but not continuously
20:19:35 <cheater99> yea but what you were doing with it
20:19:41 <pikhq> ais523: If you are the copyright holder, you can add an additional permission allowing for you to not do that with GPLv3.
20:19:53 <elliott> does anyone know if xchat can be set to ignore mentions of a name too?
20:19:59 <elliott> or at least addressed messages
20:20:03 <ais523> pikhq: I'm not the only copyright holder for either of the programs in question
20:20:12 <ais523> C-INTERCAL has loads of copyright holders, jettyplay has 3 IIRC
20:20:36 <pikhq> (the copyright holder on a GPLv3 work may add any number of additional permissions; these permissions can be removed by anyone at will.)
20:21:39 <elliott> 12:11:59 <ais523> that's different from arbitrarily deleting programs that use GNU extensions
20:21:39 <elliott> 12:12:17 <ais523> (especially as gcc is entirely capable of compiling programs that use them...)
20:21:46 <elliott> not library extensions, if you don't use glibc
20:21:48 <ais523> the bzip2 library was originally BSD, but I relicensed it as GPLv2 to simplify the license for the program as a whole
20:22:11 <ais523> elliott: not to mention, it deletes all C files in the current directory, rather than the files you were compiling, which might or might not be in the current directory
20:22:20 <ais523> also, the files you're compiling need not end with the .c extension
20:22:24 <elliott> ais523: sry will never joke ever :P
20:23:04 <ais523> incidentally, GPLv3 is /much/ saner than GPLv2, despite its many detractors
20:23:14 <ais523> I discovered this due to reading GPLv3 incessantly while testing azip
20:23:25 <ais523> (it's one of the two test files I'm using)
20:24:08 <elliott> ais523: CAN I HAZ AZIP LOLRZL
20:24:16 <ais523> elliott: oh right, I got it working again
20:24:20 <ais523> let me see if I got unazip working too
20:24:31 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, the GPLv3 is genuinely a better license, FUD aside.
20:24:46 <madbr> are licenses that important
20:25:05 <ais523> madbr: they can be, it depends on what you're doing
20:25:07 <pikhq> madbr: Because we live in a society where copyright law has gone crazy: YES.
20:25:41 <elliott> There isn't much more important than freedom. (Have I really turned into a freetard? Oh well, at least I still dislike the GPL.)
20:25:46 <ais523> elliott: I'm just testing it atm, I'll send it to you if it's working, and otherwise check what's wrong
20:25:58 <elliott> ais523: i didn't expect you to actually send it, but sure :P
20:26:12 <ais523> anyway, I can't see much of a reason why you'd choose GPLv2 over GPLv3, except compatibility with other GPLv2 things, which is pretty large
20:26:19 <pikhq> A programmer is basically forced to be a bit of a lawyer to not get sued for all the money in this day and age.
20:26:21 <ais523> I can see why you'd choose, say, BSD3 over GPLv3
20:26:42 <ais523> what was it obsoleted by?
20:26:51 <ais523> I think I disagree, there
20:27:29 <elliott> I'd also say that BSD2 was obsoleted by ISC but there you go :P
20:27:36 <pikhq> The endorsement clause of BSD3 is a noöp.
20:27:45 <ais523> depends on which country you're in, I think
20:28:26 <elliott> ais523: Berne convention, I think
20:29:05 <ais523> elliott: http://pastebin.ca/1987512
20:29:16 <ais523> try using the -t option to see what it's doing
20:29:41 <pikhq> And nations that haven't signed that don't recognise foreign copyright at all, so it's a moot point.
20:29:43 <elliott> ais523: your typical copyright terms, I presume? (I can't do anything without asking you) -- just checking :P
20:29:52 <elliott> well, apart from modifying it locally of course...
20:29:59 <ais523> elliott: copyright currently undecided, thus it's all-rights-reserved by defaut
20:30:21 <ais523> if it actually turns out to be useful, I'll license it under something more permissive
20:30:36 <elliott> ais523: ugh, now I have to write a shell one-liner to split that into two files, as is my duty
20:30:38 <ais523> note: statistically speaking, it's likely to infringe at least 1000 US patents
20:30:51 <ais523> due to being a) software, b) a compression algorithm
20:31:15 <ais523> elliott: it was a shell one-liner to join them into one file
20:31:22 <ais523> I love using more for things like that
20:31:30 <elliott> ais523: you used *more* for that?
20:31:32 <ais523> I've done things like "more * | less" before now
20:31:48 <ais523> elliott: that's what more does if you give it multiple files and stdout isn't a terminal
20:33:18 <elliott> ais523: now I just need unmore!
20:33:29 <elliott> ais523: I know! I'll use sed to turn it into a shell script that outputs those two files!
20:33:37 <elliott> (what's the sed to merge the next line with this one again?)
20:33:40 <elliott> er, keeping the \n in the buffer
20:34:18 <elliott> ais523: so have you made an azip quine yet?
20:36:15 <elliott> ah, N is the command I wanted
20:39:28 <ais523> elliott: no, I haven't tried
20:39:31 <elliott> pikhq: gah, uClibc doesn't support leap second
20:39:39 <elliott> ais523: how can you make me code sed like this
20:39:54 <ais523> it'd be pretty awkward due to the way the encoding changes all the time
20:39:59 <ais523> as bad as trying to write a bzip2 quine
20:43:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:44:36 <elliott> ais523: I give up; I'm extracting the files manually.
20:47:40 <elliott> ais523: filebin converts to DOS line endings, jesus christ
20:47:54 <Vorpal> elliott, wrt last highlight of me :P
20:48:06 <elliott> ais523: can't you just uuencode a tarball to sprunge.us? :)
20:48:11 <Vorpal> elliott, reddit thread
20:48:29 <elliott> Vorpal: specifically, the post and notch's reply
20:49:28 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, why do I get &e0 when i die without points?
20:49:30 <elliott> strange way of saying 0 :P
20:49:48 -!- digimunk has joined.
20:50:07 * elliott wonders whether anyone other than dreamhost employees ircs from dreamhost
20:50:17 <Vorpal> elliott, also uh points?
20:50:29 <elliott> Vorpal: umm yes you get told your # of points when you die
20:50:54 <digimunk> I am not an employee of dreamhost
20:50:55 <Vorpal> elliott, http://i.imgur.com/YDI84.png (no I didn't take this one, but abuse of F4!)
20:51:07 <elliott> digimunk: why would you irc from dreamhost?
20:51:19 <digimunk> I tunnel out of work through dreamhost
20:51:25 <elliott> Vorpal: http://i.imgur.com/yBRWd.png
20:51:42 <digimunk> but it is banned from a lot of servers ;)
20:51:49 <Vorpal> elliott, issue is they probably all go to the same portal at the other end
20:51:52 <Vorpal> and it is fairly useless
20:52:45 <nooga> http://i.imgur.com/YDI84.png < p0rtals?
20:53:01 <elliott> ais523: do you know which of -O3/-Os is faster?
20:53:09 <elliott> nooga: "p0rtals"? seriously? you replace o with 0? in 2010?
20:53:15 <elliott> digimunk: more than a bit :)
20:53:53 <elliott> Vorpal: http://i.imgur.com/F8mY0.png this guy did what i did but moreso and, uh, creepers
20:55:21 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway creating portals from the real world seems to like to end up in the same place. Need to create all but the first portal from within nether, or it doesn't work well
20:55:24 <Vorpal> which is very backwards
20:55:36 <Vorpal> since distances are shorter in nether, not the other way around
20:55:46 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, but one nether pixel = 8 world pixels
20:55:49 <Vorpal> elliott, and quite far from each other
20:55:57 <elliott> so if you create nearby portals in the real world
20:56:02 <elliott> they can all map to a single nether point
20:56:04 <Vorpal> like 100 blocks in nether
20:56:11 <elliott> Vorpal: http://i.imgur.com/Q3z6K.jpg portal bridge
20:56:16 <Vorpal> elliott, dude I walked about 300 tiles in the real world
20:56:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt that bridge is very walkable!
20:57:06 <elliott> Hmm, is there an easy way to stop Minecraft updating apart from disconnecting?
20:57:28 <Vorpal> elliott, entering wrong username?
20:58:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I just saw someone say elsewhere that providing free education for all is selfish elitism.
20:58:21 <nooga> i mean what is it in Minecraft
20:58:59 <Vorpal> nooga, it is a hell like word in minecraft
20:59:06 <Vorpal> nooga, elliott did answer you
20:59:25 <nooga> and why 1 nether pixel = 8 rw pixels?
20:59:38 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: why is it selfish elitism?
20:59:55 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, because the stupid should be allowed to go to university too!
21:00:27 <oklopol> and if they can get there for free, they can't go?
21:00:33 <oklopol> i'm not sure i'm following the logic
21:00:41 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:00:57 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, no, the person said something idiotic about the "less intellectually able subsidising the educated elit
21:00:58 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't it more fun to do the portals the proper way anyway?
21:01:32 <Phantom_Hoover> The fact that they were saying this on the internet was lost on them.
21:01:46 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I think the posting times on twitter are way off... http://twitter.com/notch the top one said "less than 20 seconds" half an hour ago for me...
21:01:54 <Vorpal> I cleared cache and such...
21:02:00 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: lost on me too
21:02:17 <elliott> Vorpal: server-side cache presumably
21:02:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: where was it
21:02:53 <Vorpal> <nooga> and why 1 nether pixel = 8 rw pixels? <-- well blocks, not pixels. And it is to use it for fast travel...
21:02:58 <elliott> Vorpal: what editor have you been using to look at the level?
21:03:03 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i don't get how it's ironic to say that on the internet
21:03:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that's not an answer
21:03:16 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean the map I posted before? was a map viewer, not an editor
21:03:25 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: people who paid for their uni courses?
21:03:46 <oklopol> in any case i don't think that's all that ironic
21:03:52 <Vorpal> elliott, it is kind of hugely slow once the world becomes larger than about 20 MB
21:04:01 <Vorpal> as in, taking minutes to load
21:04:25 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, it was "Minutor" (see http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Programs_and_Editors#Map_Viewers)
21:04:32 <Sgeo> I was more asking if there was a name for the size of the smallest regex, I guess
21:04:47 <Vorpal> elliott, I tried "Minecraft X-Ray" too, but kind of useless
21:04:52 -!- Zuu has joined.
21:05:04 <Sgeo> Well, smallest regexes..
21:05:17 <Vorpal> elliott, using a dedicated mapper (generates images basically) might work better
21:05:17 <Sgeo> The min() of all the sizes of all relevent regexes
21:05:24 <oklopol> (ab)*a and a(ba)* for instance
21:05:38 <oklopol> Sgeo: yeah no, i don't see how that would be very useful anyway
21:05:46 <elliott> Vorpal: heh only linux-compatible alpha *editor* is shareware
21:05:49 <oklopol> really it's rather coincidental which ones are minimal
21:05:50 <elliott> well, more like donateware but whatever
21:05:59 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed, and requires python 2.6
21:06:15 <Vorpal> elliott, it has *.pyo files
21:06:16 <Sgeo> Illustrating the difference between, say, elliott and eliott vs elliott and ehird
21:06:25 <Vorpal> elliott, no, there are no .py
21:06:36 <elliott> Vorpal: what a load of crap.
21:06:38 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, my system has 2.7 so...
21:07:01 <Sgeo> Although the size of the regex varies directly with the size of the strings, so
21:07:05 <elliott> wonder if anyone's written docs on the format
21:07:17 <Vorpal> elliott, there is on the wiki iirc
21:07:20 <Sgeo> I guess I sort of wanted a string difference like thing that works on more than two strings to give a single number
21:07:30 <Vorpal> elliott, wine + a windows editor might work
21:07:39 <elliott> i don't think i care enough to do that
21:07:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not really interested in editors though
21:07:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Bet it'd expect it to be in the Minecraft folder for Windows.
21:08:10 <elliott> I only want an editor to make the game engine suffer :)
21:08:27 <Vorpal> elliott, uh I think it goes into Application Data/.minecraft on windows or something
21:08:39 <Vorpal> elliott, presumably you could figure out where wine puts that and then symlink
21:08:57 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, saw it listed somewhere on the wiki
21:10:57 <nooga> i have shit tons of work to do and i'm just sitting here and staring at the terminal
21:11:13 <Vorpal> just close the irc client
21:11:27 <elliott> Vorpal does not understand akrasia
21:11:28 <nooga> i'm procrastinating
21:12:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm sure I will once I read the wikipedia article!
21:12:20 <elliott> Vorpal: [[Akrasia is the state of acting against one's better judgment. Examples of akrasia include procrastination and inability to form strong cooperating communities.]]
21:12:27 <elliott> http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Akrasia
21:12:35 <nooga> if i close the irc client i will move to facebook or some other shit
21:12:55 <elliott> i'd laugh even before the upgrade, but seriously?
21:13:05 <elliott> digg = corporate spam site
21:13:11 <nooga> i've never been there
21:13:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yeah the update ... fucked things up
21:13:38 <elliott> and caused a mass digg->reddit exodus
21:13:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: basically stuff is no longer posted by users, it's posted by sites.
21:13:54 <elliott> that's not strictly true for all cases, but
21:14:30 <Vorpal> elliott, of course, reddit will go down the bad path at some point too. It is kind of built in in that type of site I think...
21:14:33 <Phantom_Hoover> It smacks a little of the inability of Facebook users to deal with the change of a single pixel...
21:15:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the fact that some complaints are bullshit
21:15:06 <elliott> does not imply that all complaints are bullshit, ok?
21:15:14 <elliott> i remember the whole last.fm upgrade bullshit. it wasn't like that
21:15:18 <elliott> digg is, quite literally, a graveyard.
21:15:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: let's put it this way: a few days after the Digg upgrade, the majority of front page links linked to *reddit threads* instead of the link directly. that's literally how much it had fallen, the top links were all people linking to reddit
21:16:13 <nooga> now my gf asks me out
21:16:17 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, OK, I just want to know what made people leave/
21:16:30 <nooga> how could I resist
21:16:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i can't find a summary of the changes, and don't have the patience to blab about it
21:16:49 <elliott> as i've never been a digg user
21:17:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I only thought it was trivial since that's how the changes seemed when I looked it up.
21:18:02 <elliott> the whole submission structure was changed
21:18:13 <elliott> Vorpal: i have pumpkins everywhere. wat
21:19:27 <elliott> Vorpal: btw realworld->nether translation isn't literal; it won't spawn you on lava, for instance
21:20:35 <elliott> Vorpal: or on water, the other way
21:21:12 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: or on water, the other way <-- on ice though
21:21:40 <Vorpal> elliott, what it should do is spawn you on a small platform
21:22:10 <Vorpal> with the portal in the middle
21:22:21 <Vorpal> and a few tiles above the lava
21:22:25 <Vorpal> or at sea-level (if water)
21:23:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Fun thing to do: Get to a place where F4 will spawn you into a portal. Do so. Step back a bit so you don't get sucked in. Press F4 a lot. You get stuck in block and lose health rapidly, but then jumping somehow evaporates it and you end up in a box of portals.
21:24:11 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't want to mess up my map I told you
21:24:31 <elliott> Vorpal: So make a new world :P
21:25:12 -!- TLUL has joined.
21:26:16 <elliott> Vorpal: It's awesome because you can run quickly through the portals, but if you end up at a dead end... NETHER
21:26:34 <Vorpal> elliott, screenshot I told you
21:26:38 <Vorpal> elliott, also nether is no dead end
21:26:52 <elliott> screenshotted but nowhere to put them, feel free to offer scp
21:26:53 <Vorpal> elliott, with a pickaxe you can get elsewhere and make a portal and go back
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21:27:25 <Vorpal> elliott, what about http://imageshack.us/ ?
21:27:45 <elliott> btw holding F3 shows stats
21:28:00 <Vorpal> elliott, also I can offer scp but only if you set up an ipsec tunnel with X.509 certs to me. Send me your local root CA cert ;P
21:28:00 <elliott> Vorpal: i use imgur.com, which is like imageshack.us but not run by an asshole. but it's tedious to upload multiple images
21:28:17 <Vorpal> <elliott> btw holding F3 shows stats <-- well known
21:28:45 <Vorpal> elliott, you can lock it on by pressing alt after iirc
21:28:48 <elliott> nether transition should be smoother :(
21:28:59 <pikhq> elliott: Fortunately, it seems very likely that the leap second will be abolished.
21:30:59 <pikhq> elliott: The IERS vote on the issue will be finished in 2011. If 70% of member nations agree, then the leap second will cease to be.
21:31:13 <elliott> pikhq: I *like* the leap second.
21:31:41 <pikhq> It's more pain than it's worth, IMO.
21:31:57 <pikhq> The main problem with it is that it's not algorithmically computable.
21:32:44 <pikhq> Instead, you just have about 6 months notice about whether or not there will be one.
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21:36:00 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Impractical without a very good means of measuring DUT1.
21:36:07 <pikhq> (the difference between UT1 and UTC)
21:36:16 <elliott> pikhq: simulate the universe
21:36:19 <elliott> see what they say in that universe
21:36:36 <pikhq> elliott: No, it's much easier than that...
21:37:53 <pikhq> elliott: You need to simply be able to observe UT1 (the mean solar time at the meridian through Greenwich), and see if the difference between UT1 and UTC would go above or below 0.9s in the next 6 months.
21:40:23 <Sgeo> Suppose we get rid of the leap second. How much time until it becomes an issue? I suppose technically it's not determinable given our lack of ability to actually determine long enough in advance when leap seconds should be, but an approximation
21:42:20 <elliott> pikhq: If Greenwich ever gets nuked we are so fucked.
21:42:30 <elliott> pikhq: Congratulations! You are now the Kitten toolchain consultant.
21:43:09 <elliott> pikhq: Your job is to get a working pcc/uClibc where the uClibc was compiled with pcc and the pcc was compiled with pcc and statically-linked with uClibc -- on Linux.
21:43:16 <pikhq> Actually, the Prime Meridian no longer goes directly through the Greenwich observatory.
21:44:00 -!- madbr has joined.
21:48:42 <pikhq> The Prime Meridian is 5.31 arcseconds east of the meridian going through the transit circle at Greenwich, rather than going straight through.
21:48:53 <pikhq> Because of an accident when setting up GPS.
21:49:30 <pikhq> And they chose to change the definition of the Prime Meridian rather than change the satellites.
21:50:06 <Sgeo> Is that within walking distance?
21:50:08 <pikhq> Ah, sorry, when setting up TRANSIT, which was the very first satellite navigation system.
21:50:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's 102.5 meters at the latitude of the Royal Observatory.
21:52:09 <elliott> pikhq: what's your rate for getting insane linux toolchains to work
21:54:16 <pikhq> elliott: 10g of ¹⁹⁷Au per hour.
21:54:45 <pikhq> I doubt you can pay that.
21:54:59 <elliott> pikhq: Sheesh, I might charge for Kitten if nobody else does any drudge work at all :P
21:56:11 <Sgeo> In that case, I should charge for PSOX!
21:57:38 <Sgeo> pikhq, any reason you don't want the other isotope in your gold?
21:58:30 * Sgeo double-checks something
21:59:57 * Sgeo fails to find it online
22:01:02 <elliott> pikhq: and THEN what would you do!
22:01:06 -!- elliott has left (?).
22:01:59 -!- elliott has joined.
22:02:09 <elliott> so can gparted resize partitions mounted on / yet?
22:02:15 <elliott> or is linux still lagging behind os x in that aspect :)
22:03:48 <elliott> pikhq: and if you say use LVM i'll kill myself
22:05:05 <elliott> 7 gigs should be enough for a kitten base install methinks
22:05:06 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
22:05:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's not a question.
22:05:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, you have to do drudge work, then.
22:06:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover does not get Kitten for free!
22:06:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not successfully. :P
22:06:59 <elliott> pikhq: NOW IS YOUR CHANCE TO CHANGE THE HISTORY FUTURE: JFS or btrfs?
22:07:16 <Sgeo> Would I be able to do any of the druge work?
22:07:21 <Sgeo> I mean, if I wasn't ignored?
22:07:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: pinging people like that is irritating and will get you ignored
22:07:57 <elliott> Sgeo: maybe, have you ever compiled anything ever?
22:08:15 <Sgeo> Make that a yes
22:08:40 <elliott> Sgeo: do you have linux installed?
22:08:57 <Sgeo> Not at this very moment, no, but I do have access to my school's Linux system
22:09:33 <elliott> Sgeo: Have you ever debugged problems with the C stdlib initialisation files (crt1.o) etc. on Linux?
22:09:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: but it doesn't run active worlds!
22:10:09 <Sgeo> elliott, no :(
22:10:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You won't do drudge work.
22:10:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (Drudge work = compiling uClibc and pcc twice or so, sorting out problems.)
22:10:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (This involves recompiling pcc with pcc and uClibc.)
22:10:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (Also probably compiling a cross-compiling gcc, so that uClibc works.)
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22:11:58 <elliott> Sgeo: Then I can't think of anything you can do except test it, which would involve... installing it.
22:12:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Since it was for Microcosm, and apparently despite the fact that *he had said the ABI was x86-64 UNIX* he claimed that the ABI hadn't been picket.
22:13:13 <elliott> Microcosm is just a lame version of my user-space POSIX project, anyway. :P
22:13:40 <Sgeo> MAKE WORDS WITH TTIASACRMMMILLHTMITEHIT
22:14:21 <Sgeo> (Disclosure: I'm doing this for Reddit stuff)
22:15:20 <elliott> Sgeo: Too wimpy to install it? :p
22:15:34 <Sgeo> elliott, maybe over the weekend when I have time
22:15:53 <Sgeo> Also, can I install in user-space?
22:16:04 <Phantom_Hoover> True; terrible Italians always scrape along crevasses. Remember, multi-meters militantly inject legumes litigiously, having tried mayonnaise. I tried eating hare, I think.
22:18:25 <elliott> Sgeo: ...how the hell would you be able to install in user-space?
22:18:47 <Sgeo> Depends on what exactly is being installed.
22:18:54 <Sgeo> OS stuff, obviously not
22:18:59 <elliott> Sgeo: Actually you'll probably only be able to install from Linux to start with... as I haven't written an installer.
22:19:31 <elliott> Sgeo: You realise that Kitten is an OS?
22:20:35 <elliott> Sgeo: ... it's a Linux distro.
22:22:31 <elliott> Sgeo: So, seems I have to look elsewhere for a drudger :p
22:22:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So want to do the drudge-work?! That isn't actually drudgy?!
22:22:44 <Sgeo> Or just wait until I have some free time
22:23:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the maximum amount of work I'm doing is "sh drudge.sh".
22:23:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh come on, compiling stuff is fun!
22:23:41 <pikhq> ザルゴイットカームズ！ヒーフーウェイツビハインドザワルズ！
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22:24:49 <elliott> pikhq: You get to compile, then!
22:25:43 <pikhq> elliott: sàrukò i'to kâmusù? hî hû uēitu hìhaintò sà warusù?
22:26:11 <elliott> pikhq: So, JFS or btrfs, which do you want to see?
22:26:22 <pikhq> elliott: Definitely ZFS.
22:26:41 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, also, your vowel extension lines are MISPLACED!
22:26:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They're not lines.
22:26:59 <elliott> They're pikhq's own romanisation scheme.
22:27:05 <elliott> pikhq: You... do realise that the native ZFS port is not yet released?
22:27:29 <elliott> pikhq: Oh look: "This project solves the licensing issue by distributing ZFS as a separate kernel module users will have to download and build for themselves."
22:27:35 <elliott> pikhq: So no, I cannot use ZFS. Pick again.
22:27:48 <pikhq> elliott: I'm aware, I was being unhelpful.
22:27:51 <elliott> pikhq: [[There's still some major work to be done, so this is not production-ready code. The ZFS Posix Layer has not been implemented yet, therefore mounting file systems is not yet possible; direct database access, however, is. Supposedly, KQ Infotech is working on this, but it has been rather quiet around those parts for a while now.]]
22:28:04 <elliott> pikhq: I won't even make you work on it! Just offer opinions, dammit :p
22:28:24 <pikhq> elliott: Btrfs seems significantly more awesome.
22:28:53 <elliott> pikhq: btrfs is also still labelled as "WILL DESTROY YOUR DATA FUCKING FUCK FUCKSHIT", and is not part of any official stable kernel release.
22:29:07 <elliott> pikhq: Also, btrfs needs a separate /boot.
22:29:55 <elliott> pikhq: Whereas JFS is insanely stable, "fsck" takes less than a second if there's nothing wrong and a second or two for excellent recovery if there is, has many of the advanced XFS features without the unreliability, and is generally awesome. The *single* downside to JFS is that it doesn't support resizing on Linux. IIRC it does on OS/2.
22:30:22 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: ... Loogoid? What?
22:30:26 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: That was Zalgo.
22:30:40 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and btrfs is under Oracle control.
22:30:45 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: You suck at reading kana, apparently.
22:30:52 <pikhq> elliott: Wait, seriously? Fuck Oracle.
22:31:07 <elliott> pikhq: Yes; it is an Oracle project. The lead developer works on it at Oracle.
22:31:10 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Then... He sucks. :P
22:31:19 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Or just doesn't handle English-in-kana well.
22:31:27 <pikhq> (which, granted, is completely screw.)
22:31:32 <elliott> pikhq: You will now whine about how JFS doesn't support resizing.
22:32:16 <pikhq> elliott: Well, then JFS isn't an option either.
22:33:05 <elliott> pikhq: Personally the lack of resizing doesn't bother me too much. But obviously it's a deal-breaker for many. So, tell me: what do you suggest? :P
22:33:27 <pikhq> elliott: Resizing is a very nice thing.
22:33:48 <pikhq> Sufficiently so that I consider filesystems not supporting it a non-option.
22:34:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just that.
22:34:09 <elliott> Being able to resize a partition.
22:34:17 <elliott> pikhq: Come on then, I'm waiting :)
22:34:46 <elliott> pikhq: ReiserFS isn't an option for obvious reasons. XFS is a bit prone to data loss, apparently.
22:35:05 <elliott> pikhq: Apparently Linux supports the FFS BSD filesystem, but really now, no :P
22:35:36 <pikhq> elliott: Namesys is somehow still functioning.
22:35:49 <elliott> pikhq: The future of the company fell into doubt after Reiser was found guilty of murder and announced plans to sell the company to pay for his legal defense.[2] Their website has not been accessible since November 2007. Edward Shishkin, a Namesys employee, was quoted in a January 2008 CNET article as saying that "commercial activity of Namesys has stopped".[3]
22:35:59 <pikhq> elliott: They get funding from DARPA.
22:36:00 <elliott> pikhq: Namesys is dead, dead, dead and ReiserFS with it.
22:36:15 <elliott> pikhq: ReiserFS 4 development is still stopped.
22:36:21 <elliott> pikhq: And I don't want to use ReiserFS, so there :P
22:36:22 <pikhq> elliott: Why Hans hasn't sold it is beyond me.
22:36:33 <elliott> pikhq: ...can he? He's in jail, you recall.
22:36:38 <pikhq> elliott: And they're trying to get Reiser4 into the kernel...
22:36:42 <elliott> pikhq: Also, he's hardly a sane man.
22:36:51 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, you can still sell stock ownership in jail.
22:37:01 <elliott> pikhq: See my note about his sanity :P
22:37:05 <Sgeo> If he was found guilty, what's he hoping for wrt the legal defense? Less jail time or avoiding of capital punishment?
22:37:13 <elliott> Sgeo: ...he's already in jail.
22:37:29 <elliott> On September 5, 2008, Hans Reiser arrived at San Quentin State Prison to begin serving his sentence. Reiser tried to appeal his second-degree murder conviction on October 30, 2008. The request was denied by Judge Larry Goodman on November 13, 2008.[50][51] On January 10, 2009, it was reported that Reiser was recovering after having been beaten by several prisoners.[52][53] On January 28, 2009, he was transferred to Mule Creek State Prison.[54]
22:37:31 <Sgeo> So what can he be hoping for in terms of legal defense?
22:37:42 <elliott> Sgeo: ...why would he be hoping for any legal defence at this point?
22:37:47 <elliott> He confessed, he's in jail, 15 years to life.
22:37:57 <Sgeo> "The future of the company fell into doubt after Reiser was found guilty of murder and announced plans to sell the company to pay for his legal defense"
22:38:21 <pikhq> "Reiser cannot appeal his conviction or sentence as a result of his plea bargain."
22:38:25 <elliott> Before he confessed, Sgeo.
22:38:41 <elliott> pikhq: Picked a filesystem yet? :P
22:39:07 <pikhq> elliott: Fuck filesystems.
22:39:20 <elliott> pikhq: WELL THAT SOLVES THE PROBLEM
22:40:12 <elliott> The ext series' obsolescence is planned; Ted Ts'o says that ext4 is a stopgap measure, and the future is btrfs.
22:40:28 <elliott> Therefore ext5 will not exist; ext4 is the last version, before a transition to btrfs.
22:40:37 <olsner> rename it ext5, plobrem sloved
22:41:05 <Sgeo> So not only will we have to time travel, but we'll have to go to a different universe
22:41:07 <pikhq> olsner: Except that all the other ext filesystems are related.
22:41:08 <Sgeo> Problem solved
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22:41:29 <madbr> why are there so many linux filesystems :D
22:41:51 <pikhq> Most of the filesystems Linux supports were designed for other OSes...
22:41:52 <elliott> madbr: there aren't that many.
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22:42:30 <elliott> pikhq: Maybe I'll use venti. :P
22:42:52 <pikhq> Ones for Linux in particular are: extfs, btrfs, ReiserFS. That I can think of.
22:42:56 <elliott> pikhq: Maybe I'll use fossil, I mean. :P
22:43:06 <elliott> pikhq: You'd need a ported fossil server in your initramfs, and 9P support in the kernel.
22:43:18 <elliott> pikhq: ext is an extended version of the Minix filesystem.
22:43:37 <elliott> pikhq: You're right, ext is Linux-specific.
22:43:53 <pikhq> And the other ext filesystems are patches on that.
22:43:57 <elliott> pikhq: Maybe I'll use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiafs, ext2's competitor.
22:44:08 <elliott> "The maximum size of a file was 64 MiB and the maximum size of a partition was 2 GiB."
22:44:34 <pikhq> ... Wow, I'm pretty sure FAT16's better than that.
22:44:44 <elliott> pikhq: Apparently that's *better* than ext.
22:44:47 <elliott> ext must have been terrible.
22:44:56 <pikhq> No, FAT16 is precisely that.
22:45:06 <elliott> pikhq: ext -- worse than FAT16!
22:45:19 <elliott> (Or, I guess, it might be the same as ext and have improved other things. Maybe.)
22:45:35 <elliott> pikhq: If you like specific bootloaders, now's the time to demand one.
22:45:43 <elliott> (As part of the default package set, that is.)
22:45:50 <madbr> fat16 handles large files no?
22:45:52 <pikhq> elliott: Eh, Grub2's not bad it seems.
22:46:04 <elliott> pikhq: Pick again. (I already know what my favourite is.)
22:46:11 <pikhq> elliott: I don't care that much, to be honest.
22:46:23 <elliott> pikhq: Correct! The answer is: LILO.
22:46:41 <pikhq> elliott: I mean, a bootloader runs for all of a few hundred clock cycles. Doesn't matter in the slightest.
22:46:50 <elliott> LIIIIIIIIIIIIILOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
22:47:26 <pikhq> madbr: FAT16 handles up to 4GB files.
22:47:33 <pikhq> madbr: But only up to 2GB filesystems.
22:48:11 <pikhq> Likewise for FAT12, which handles up to 4GB files, but only up to 32MB filesystems.
22:48:19 <pikhq> elliott: The LInux LOader certainly works.
22:48:32 <elliott> pikhq: It can also chainload! It can even read JFS partitions!
22:48:34 <pikhq> And doesn't do much more than that.
22:48:40 <Sgeo> Surely it's just an accidental feature that it theoretically handles files up to that size?
22:48:45 * Sgeo should read the specs
22:49:15 <Sgeo> What's a good first filesystem to read about?
22:49:16 <elliott> pikhq: http://i.cbsi.com.au/story_media/339303370/slackware-131_7.jpg Doesn't look bad if you ask me.
22:49:39 <elliott> pikhq: Different design with multiple OSes: http://www.designlegion.com/linux/screenshots/lilobmp.jpg
22:49:53 <pikhq> Sgeo: The file size is stored as 4 bytes.
22:50:06 <pikhq> Sgeo: On all FAT filesystems.
22:51:08 <elliott> pikhq: Question. Does any filesystem split files into multiple inodes?
22:51:59 <pikhq> elliott: Why would it? An inode is just metadata.
22:52:00 <Sgeo> So what happens if a Windows user tries to ... oh, FAT
22:52:13 <Sgeo> Does anyone still use FAT?
22:52:23 <pikhq> Sgeo: Most flash drives.
22:52:26 <madbr> on my win98 box, yeah
22:52:36 <pikhq> Sgeo: And a lot of consumer electronics. A *lot*.
22:52:37 <elliott> pikhq: If two files share the same N byte chunk... would be nice to share their storage? Eh, I dunno.
22:52:57 <madbr> but is the added complexity of that worth it?
22:52:59 <Sgeo> elliott, Amiga Fast File System?
22:53:00 <pikhq> elliott: So, you're asking about deduplicative storage.
22:53:02 <Sgeo> Or something else?
22:53:07 <elliott> Sgeo: Unix/BSD Fast File System.
22:53:26 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_FFS ?
22:53:46 <elliott> Sgeo: Read it all, the history is quite informative.
22:53:58 <elliott> pikhq: Well, yes. A lookup tree from some hash to where it's stored. Only problem there is that you have to not only do a lookup but then a compare of N bytes to make sure...
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22:55:06 <elliott> pikhq: How big are the chunks? Configurable? (Default?)
22:55:13 <olsner> (I want some kind of citation before I believe that 4GB file-size limit for FAT12)
22:55:30 <elliott> olsner: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_Allocation_Table
22:55:36 <elliott> Max file size 4 GB minus 1 byte (or block size if smaller)
22:55:39 <elliott> for FAT-12, FAT-16, FAT-32
22:55:41 <pikhq> elliott: Filesystem block level.
22:55:48 <elliott> pikhq: how big are those typically again? 4k?
22:55:55 <elliott> olsner: so FAT-12 can store 4 GB files but only 32 MB volumes :D
22:56:10 <olsner> elliott: yeah, I saw that, but I want proof that it's also true
22:56:17 <elliott> olsner: well, imagine if it only used two bytes
22:56:23 <elliott> olsner: and a non-power-of-two is ... iffy
22:57:11 <olsner> a ... non-power-of-two-times-eight power of two
22:57:16 <pikhq> elliott: Buut by default it just trusts the hash.
22:57:42 <Sgeo> olsner is questioning what's so iffy about 3 bytes
22:57:46 -!- TLUL has left (?).
22:57:55 <Sgeo> For the size thing
22:57:56 <olsner> if you mean it goes 2 -> 4 -> 8 bytes, then you have 2^(8*2^n)
22:58:13 <elliott> olsner: 2^1 = 2. 2^2 = 4. 2^3 = 8
22:58:21 <pikhq> elliott: Though deduplication is not enabled by default.
22:58:35 <pikhq> elliott: And you can tell it to verify a lack of collision with a filesystem option.
22:58:40 <elliott> pikhq: I can't put my faith in an filesystem that I can't trust to always work if my hardware is OK.
22:58:47 <elliott> And verification sounds slow.
22:59:03 <Vorpal> elliott, see "pig carting" on http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Saddle
22:59:39 <pikhq> elliott: Eh, involves reading or looking in the filesystem cache to verify.
22:59:53 <olsner> elliott: that's the storage size in bytes, what I referred to was the maximum size you can store
23:00:09 <elliott> olsner: err, surely it just gives a start pointer and file size
23:00:12 <elliott> i don't see why it wouldn't
23:00:24 <pikhq> elliott: And it'd have to do a disk access anyways; with deduplication your blocks are reference-counted.
23:00:37 <Sgeo> Learn You A Haskell now has a chapter on zippers!
23:00:51 <olsner> elliott: also, I'm still talking about the formulas for non-iffy sizes
23:00:56 <olsner> not about FAT12 anymore
23:01:20 <elliott> olsner: the maximum file size in these is controlled entirely by the file size field
23:01:26 <elliott> which any sane person would size as a power of two
23:01:42 <elliott> olsner: a power of two number of bytes, that is
23:01:46 <elliott> olsner: what's the C type for 3 bytes?
23:02:48 <pikhq> elliott: But in FAT-12 the actual filesystem pointers are 12 bits. I think they were mad.
23:02:55 <Vorpal> elliott, there isn't one?
23:03:00 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:03:06 <Vorpal> elliott, why do you need one?
23:03:07 <olsner> I'm just saying that if the field size grows as 2^n, the file sizes you can store in that field grows as 2^(8*2^n)
23:03:15 <elliott> Vorpal: READ CONTEXT OR DON'T REPLY AT ALL FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
23:03:29 <Vorpal> elliott, calm down, after all I did for you
23:03:48 <elliott> olsner: or, 2^(2^(n+3)) :P
23:03:57 <Vorpal> <pikhq> elliott: But in FAT-12 the actual filesystem pointers are 12 bits. I think they were mad. <-- um, do they use the remaining 4 bytes up to the 16 byte boundary for anything else?
23:04:11 <elliott> Vorpal: THE FIRST FEW BYTES OF THE FILE CLEARLY
23:04:49 <Vorpal> elliott, well it could be used for flags or some such
23:04:52 <olsner> Vorpal: 12 bits plus 4 bytes? that's 44 bits
23:04:54 <Vorpal> elliott, like "is read only"
23:04:59 <Vorpal> olsner, 4 bits I meant
23:05:18 <madbr> vorpal: they pack them together
23:05:20 <pikhq> Vorpal: Erm. Well, yeah, it's not 0-filled after the 12.
23:05:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah, what is it used for?
23:05:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: Depends on where in the structs...
23:05:44 <madbr> so it codes 2 entries over 3 bytes
23:06:17 <Vorpal> elliott, actually you can do this in C. bitfield
23:06:22 <madbr> floppies are nasty
23:06:25 <elliott> Vorpal: not packing though
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23:06:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: All on-disk file pointers are 12 bits, and the whole thing is a bunch of linked lists...
23:06:42 <madbr> if you use 25% less space for the FAT, you're saving on the reading speed
23:06:42 <Sgeo> This looks vaguely like it would benefit from being a monad
23:07:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, as long as they don't cdr-encode XD
23:07:25 <elliott> pikhq: I am so tempted just to use ext3.
23:07:43 <madbr> most floppy drives are ridiculously slow
23:08:45 <Vorpal> elliott, anything wrong with ext4?
23:09:10 <elliott> Vorpal: The curmudgeon inside me sees no point to extents.
23:09:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Or this fancy allocation tricky thingamajig.
23:09:29 <pikhq> elliott: It has benefits.
23:09:36 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c5/E2fsck-uninit.png
23:09:50 <elliott> Keep talkin', keep gettin' my shit.
23:10:48 <elliott> UFSv2 uses 16k blocks by default cuz its MODERN
23:10:56 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, eventually we'll have you only supporting FAT12.
23:10:57 <Vorpal> elliott, well it is useful when you have huge files
23:11:07 <elliott> (space or time). The file system can either be instructed to try
23:11:07 <elliott> to minimize the time spent allocating blocks, or to try to mini‐
23:11:07 <elliott> mize the space fragmentation on the disk. If the value of min‐
23:11:07 <elliott> free (see above) is less than 8%, the default is to optimize for
23:11:07 <elliott> space; if the value of minfree is greater than or equal to 8%,
23:11:09 <elliott> the default is to optimize for time. See tunefs(8) for more
23:11:10 <Vorpal> elliott, like virtualisation disk images
23:11:11 <elliott> details on how to set this option.
23:11:32 <elliott> $ sudo mkfs.ufs -J /dev/sda2
23:11:33 <Vorpal> elliott, from where is that?
23:11:36 <elliott> pikhq: Just made your damn decision for you.
23:11:46 <elliott> pikhq: We're using the motherfucking BSD filesystem.
23:11:48 <Vorpal> elliott, ah *bsd again
23:11:56 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm doing this on Linux though :)
23:12:04 <elliott> Vorpal: UFS is fully supported in Linux.
23:12:08 <Vorpal> elliott, ufs support on linux is read-only iirc
23:12:11 <elliott> And mkfs.ufs is just the BSD newfs.
23:12:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Not that I know of. Hell, I just created one in Linux, I should hope it can write it.
23:12:38 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, I thought it was badly broken as well. Hm
23:12:58 <Vorpal> elliott, and not UFS2 support of course
23:13:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, UFS2 support.
23:13:07 <elliott> Or at least, I just created a UFSv2 file system.
23:13:20 <elliott> [31980.209605] ufs was compiled with read-only support, can't be mounted as read-write
23:13:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Nope, it does UFSv2.
23:13:31 <elliott> Vorpal: It was just COMPILED not to.
23:13:45 <Vorpal> elliott, the kernel option says "Read write UFS support (DANGEROUS BROKEN!)" or some such
23:14:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I told you it wouldn't work...
23:14:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Interestingly I don't take your statements as certain fact.
23:14:23 <elliott> Especially when you put "I thought" in front of them.
23:14:39 <elliott> pikhq: I might just use XFS and never upgrade it.
23:14:43 <Vorpal> elliott, my word is of course law ;P
23:15:16 <olsner> I think ZFS is probably the coolest file system right now
23:15:37 <elliott> olsner: ZFS is (1) under Oracle control and (2) unsupported under Linux
23:15:46 <olsner> yes, unfortunate accidents
23:15:57 -!- digimunk has left (?).
23:15:59 <elliott> olsner: Not only does the Linux native port lack things such as "mounting a filesystem" (POSIX layer hasn't been implemented), I can never *ship* a kernel with it as that would be a license violation.
23:16:10 <elliott> olsner: btrfs is also out the window because of Oracle control.
23:16:34 <olsner> btrfs is oracle-filth?
23:17:05 <elliott> olsner: yeah -- it's an Oracle "product" and the lead developer works on it at Oracle
23:17:16 <olsner> oh joy, "Developer: Oracle Corporation" says wikipedia
23:17:31 <elliott> olsner: even if they don't corrupt it, I'm uninterested in using anything Oracle puts out.
23:18:48 <pikhq> http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/intelligentdesignsort.html
23:19:23 <Sgeo> Well, that didn't teach me stuff I didn't know
23:22:32 <pikhq> You are not permitted to learn.
23:22:52 <olsner> "My fear that Oracle would buy Sun only to let it die are becoming reality. I can't help but envision the corpse of Sun lying inert while a cloven-hoofed Larry Ellison dances around it, cackling -- such a tragedy."
23:24:36 <elliott> olsner: ...quite the vision
23:25:24 <olsner> collecting and piling the corpses, dancing around, cackling
23:25:39 <elliott> olsner: SO WHICH FISLESYSTEM SHOULD I USE
23:25:55 <elliott> Sgeo: i'm so sad you won't test kitten sniff sniffle sniffle
23:26:07 <Sgeo> elliott, if I had time I would
23:26:17 <Sgeo> Let me get VirtualBox working
23:26:18 <elliott> Sgeo: You spend an awful lot of time IRCing :P
23:26:23 <elliott> Sgeo: No, VirtualBox testing isn't useful.
23:26:26 <elliott> I have VirtualBox myself :P
23:26:26 <olsner> elliott: btw, if something starts boiling again, remind me that it's supposed to
23:26:32 <elliott> What I don't have is various different hardware configurations.
23:26:46 -!- madbr has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:26:49 <Sgeo> So, you want me to install some OS you made?
23:27:01 <elliott> You can easily put it on another partition.
23:27:07 <elliott> Although doing that might actually require Linux. Ho hum.
23:27:11 <Sgeo> You could still be doing malicous things
23:27:26 * Sgeo can't spell today
23:27:26 <elliott> Sgeo: I really have better things to do than try and fuck up your computer.
23:27:46 * Sgeo doesn't have time right now. Maybe tomorrow
23:27:55 <elliott> Sgeo: Hell, it's not ready today.
23:28:19 <elliott> Sgeo: Try a few weeks to a month :P
23:29:30 <elliott> pikhq: " The U.S. Justice Department accused Oracle Corp. of defrauding the federal government on a software contract that involved more than $1 billion in sales."
23:31:10 -!- Sasha2_ has joined.
23:31:47 <Sgeo> Hey, lame story about me being related to some quasi-famous thing in some way
23:32:04 * Sgeo has become self-aware!
23:32:23 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:33:07 -!- Sasha2_ has changed nick to Sasha2.
23:34:01 <Vorpal> elliott, .... ... http://www.worldofminecraft.com/
23:35:13 * Sgeo hits Vorpal with a High-Tech Hand
23:35:39 <elliott> Vorpal: I assume you've seen:
23:35:43 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/9/17/
23:35:44 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/9/20/
23:35:45 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what do you mean?
23:36:00 <Vorpal> elliott, no I haven't. *reads*
23:36:02 <Sgeo> There was a Creatures fansite called The High-Tech Hand
23:36:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, uh? creatures as in?
23:36:29 <Sgeo> (Well, series of games)
23:36:46 <olsner> elliott: what can you turn sticks into?
23:36:59 <elliott> olsner: ALL SORTS OF THINGS (when paired with wood)
23:37:06 <Vorpal> Sgeo, and what has that got to do with anything?
23:37:18 <Sgeo> Vorpal, the weird name for a site
23:37:30 <olsner> literally every sort of thing?
23:37:49 <Vorpal> olsner, nah. Just a huge number of things
23:38:15 <Vorpal> olsner, various tools, torches, weapons, fishing rod, lots more
23:38:34 <Vorpal> and also not just with wood
23:38:51 <Vorpal> well that would be for low quality tools/weapons
23:38:56 <Vorpal> you want rock later on
23:39:16 <Vorpal> perhaps, if you are lucky and find some, diamond
23:39:18 <Sgeo> elliott, have you been reading Sam Hughes's NaNoWriMo stuff?
23:40:11 <olsner> oh no... there was a plot twist but I missed it, now I have to backtrack to find out when it twisted and why
23:40:41 <olsner> also, don't distract me :)
23:41:36 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:42:35 <Vorpal> Sgeo, isn't he still ignoring you?
23:43:24 <olsner> oh, now I get it, the cuts that looked like they were from a parallel story was actually the cuts that explained the plot twist
23:43:47 <Sgeo> Vorpal, um, no?
23:43:56 <Sgeo> Unless he was obsessively reading logs
23:53:40 -!- elliott has joined.
23:53:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Write a filesystem. (You'd be good with drudge work like that, I feel.)
23:57:29 <Vorpal> elliott, ouch. I'd hate to do that
23:57:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I'd just use zfs except for it's license
23:57:56 <elliott> Ugh, but then I don't want to use ext4, because fscking is so slow compared to jfs...
23:58:02 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah but with a saner license it wouldn't be in such control
23:58:05 <elliott> pikhq: When was the last time you resized a partition?
23:58:12 <elliott> Vorpal: it'd still need a fork for me to trust it.
23:58:15 <elliott> Vorpal: (btrfs has the same problem)
23:58:22 <Vorpal> elliott, to trust jfs?
23:58:23 <elliott> Vorpal: what do you mean "jfs?"
23:58:29 <Vorpal> elliott, I suggest using jfs!
23:58:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Absolutely perfect of course, except that it doesn't support resizing partitions.
23:58:43 <Sgeo> elliott, Sam Hughes NaNoWriMo
23:58:48 <Sgeo> Have you been reading it?
23:58:49 <Vorpal> elliott, it supports growing iirc
23:58:58 <Vorpal> elliott, not shrinking though
23:59:00 <elliott> Vorpal: not that I know of
23:59:10 <elliott> JFS includes a rather unusual partition-resizing ability: It's built into the kernel's JFS driver. You can use this feature to increase, but not to decrease, the size of the filesystem. As with most other partition-resizing tools, you must modify the partition size first by using fdisk to delete the partition and then recreate it with a larger size. After you've done this, you should mount the partition as you normally do and then issue the follo
23:59:26 <Sgeo> Just wondering. Also, there's at least one story that you'd have some shnaudenfraud over imagining me in it
23:59:45 * Sgeo is aware of the fail
23:59:47 <Vorpal> elliott, I suggest just using gparted
00:00:03 <elliott> Vorpal: gparted can't shrink jfs partitions. nothing can.
00:00:13 <elliott> it's one of the deep mysteries of the universe
00:00:14 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed, but who needs that
00:00:31 <elliott> Vorpal: anyone who can't make perfect partition size estimates ahead of time?
00:00:42 <Vorpal> elliott, just make a smaller one and grow as needed?
00:00:54 <elliott> Vorpal: anyone who sets up a single-OS machine and then wants to installer another OS?
00:01:17 <Vorpal> elliott, well, look, my volume group has over 600 GB unallocated!
00:01:19 <elliott> Vorpal: what if you expand it to do some disk-heavy work, then rm the data, and later you want to shrink it to install another OS?
00:01:41 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, lvm won't be supported in the installer :P
00:01:42 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you create a throw away partition for that
00:02:01 <Vorpal> elliott, dude, I done it several times
00:02:01 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't use LVM and nor do many others.
00:02:07 <Vorpal> elliott, well, your own issue
00:02:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Our own lack of a headache...
00:02:56 <Vorpal> elliott, it is *easy*. Takes a few hours to learn
00:03:07 <elliott> Vorpal: I understand it, it is just a headache.
00:03:14 <Vorpal> then all you use is lvcreate, lvextend and lvremove
00:03:22 <elliott> I want nothing of it. Also, I do not appreciate its Linux-specificity at all. Linux vendor lockin FTL.
00:03:27 <Vorpal> elliott, initial setup then you just need 3 commands
00:03:32 <elliott> Vorpal: I understand it, it is just a headache.
00:03:32 <elliott> I want nothing of it. Also, I do not appreciate its Linux-specificity at all. Linux vendor lockin FTL.
00:04:03 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:04:18 <Vorpal> elliott, well you could port it to other OSes
00:04:29 <Vorpal> elliott, it just uses the device mapper
00:04:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Would you justify using Microsoft software like that?
00:04:37 <Vorpal> All of the LVM logic is user space
00:04:52 <Vorpal> elliott, well it is closed source, lvm is open
00:05:18 <elliott> Vorpal: "Software X is unacceptable because it only runs on platform Y. We don't want to lock ourselves into Y and may even look into Z in the future." "Well, you could just PORT THE FUCKING COMPLEX SOFTWARE."
00:05:33 <Vorpal> elliott, you need a basic "map these byte ranges from this partition and that partition into this pseudo drive"
00:05:41 <Vorpal> elliott, that is all you need from the kernel for basic LVM stuff
00:05:48 <Vorpal> the rest is user space
00:05:57 <Vorpal> okay there is the snapshot stuff too, but who uses that?
00:06:03 <elliott> Yeah -- I DOUBT the user space shit will compile on BSD.
00:06:03 <pikhq> elliott: Few months ago.
00:06:19 <elliott> pikhq: Please explain to Vorpal why just because a piece of software is portable to another OS, does not mean it does not lock you in to a certain OS.
00:06:28 <pikhq> elliott: When I realised I had made my Gentoo root FS too small.
00:06:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm saying that porting it would be viable
00:06:36 <Vorpal> and would be a nice project
00:06:37 <elliott> pikhq: It can't shrink, but it can grow.
00:06:51 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, it's unshrinkable is all?
00:06:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, okay. Hey, you should install FreeBSD. What's that, you can't?
00:06:53 <Sgeo> Honey, I Shrunk the Partition
00:06:53 <pikhq> elliott: Acceptable.
00:07:02 <elliott> pikhq: (And it's a rather fundamental issue, I gather; shrinking will never happen.)
00:07:06 <elliott> pikhq: But it's so awesome so fuck it, JFS.
00:07:30 <pikhq> elliott: Shrinking a partition basically occurs when: you want to install a new OS dual-boot.
00:07:35 <Vorpal> elliott, well. If you are going to switch OS anyway (which in a production system would be a major PITA), you probably won't do so live on that system
00:07:40 <Vorpal> you would migrate anyway
00:07:46 <Vorpal> elliott, so your argument is void
00:07:53 <elliott> pikhq: And who would ever want to use anything other than Kitten, right?
00:08:16 <Sgeo> I guess if I make the Kitten partition too large, I could always destoy Kitten and its maker
00:08:20 <elliott> 7611392 kilobytes total disk space.
00:08:23 <pikhq> elliott: On a UNIX system, you're *unlikely* to want a dual boot with another UNIX system, and Windows *cannot* be installed after any other OSes.
00:08:36 <elliott> pikhq: (Yes it can. You just need to reinstall the boot loader.)
00:08:41 <pikhq> Well, unlikely to want to do so retroäctively.
00:09:07 <Sgeo> I once tried to have a dual-boot with Freespire and Ubunt
00:09:25 <Sgeo> broke the boot-loader somehow, couldn't get into Ubuntu
00:09:30 <Sgeo> Was stuck with Freespire
00:09:37 <Sgeo> For about 3.5 months
00:09:55 <pikhq> Vorpal: Being capable of being ported but not actually *being* ported is no different from being impossible to port until you're willing to spend a gigantic swath of time on the porting.
00:10:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: *Inevitably*, a single-OS program is going to make a lot of assumptions about the underlying system. A lot of which nobody actually thinks about at all.
00:10:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, I suspect that the user space would be fairly easy to port. And a device mapper equiv would be nice for lots of other stuff anyway.
00:11:23 <pikhq> How likely are you to realise that you should avoid *fork* if you want it to ever run on Windows without pain and agony, for instance?
00:11:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, but that is a windows bug
00:12:10 <pikhq> Basically, porting is *insanely* difficult.
00:12:20 <pikhq> Well, when you try to leave the confines of UNIX.
00:12:24 <pikhq> (oh so comforting)
00:12:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm not suggesting that
00:12:32 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm suggesting to a *bsd
00:12:52 <pikhq> Vorpal: That still takes quite some effort.
00:12:55 -!- Decarabia has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:13:25 <pikhq> It's much much easier than leaving UNIX, but... You *do* realise why Autocrap was made, right?
00:13:48 <Sgeo> http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/hanoisort.html
00:13:55 <Sgeo> I think the time complexity is technically wrong
00:14:11 <elliott> so that programs could pretend to be portable to nongnu?
00:14:11 <Sgeo> It doesn't account for time to determine the correct solution, does it?
00:14:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes, but thankfully device-mapper is quite a general concept. Sure it needs to be implemented. But compared to the full lvm2 it is fairly simple. You could skip everything but the basic model to begin with (that is, skip snapshots and such, which are compile time kernel options on linux).
00:14:26 <Vorpal> the entire lvm logic is in userspace
00:14:42 <Vorpal> sure the API against the kernel would change. Probably some udev code need to be replaced
00:14:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: ... Waitwaitwait, porting stuff like *device-mapper*?
00:14:50 <pikhq> That is deep fucking magic. No.
00:15:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm suggesting implementing a equivalent feature
00:15:23 <pikhq> Would you like a pony?
00:15:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, basically it is after all this: [(device,start-offset,stop-offset), ...] -> fake-device
00:16:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, that is what device-mapper without snapshot stuff and so on is
00:16:29 <pikhq> Vorpal wins the oversimplification award of the day.
00:16:59 <olsner> Vorpal: if you think it is easy you don't know the problem very well... this applies to all problems
00:17:13 <Vorpal> olsner, I don't think it is easy. But it think it is possible.
00:17:25 <Vorpal> olsner, writing *any* kernel code is hard
00:17:33 <pikhq> The device mapper is awesome, but fuck trying to get that on any non-Linux OS.
00:17:51 <pikhq> I'd sooner implement LVM via FUSE.
00:17:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, well fuck trying to get the snapshot stuff, the crypt target and so on yes
00:18:02 <Sgeo> olsner, I think 1+1 is easy
00:18:04 <pikhq> (which is actually... Entirely practical.)
00:18:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, that would just mean writing a device mapper in user space targeting fuse!
00:18:50 <pikhq> Sgeo: Calculate it from ZFC. (you will need to start by defining 1 and +)
00:19:28 <Sgeo> (Yeah, not entirely useful without all the rest of the context)
00:19:29 -!- Decarabia has joined.
00:19:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I would presume {} is the empty set?
00:19:51 <pikhq> (okay now I'm just being an ass.)
00:20:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed you are a donkey
00:20:35 <Sgeo> How are negatives defined?
00:20:41 <Sgeo> How are rationals defined? Reals?
00:20:42 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, I know, it's a notational thing, and well outside of the semantics of a formal system.
00:21:24 <pikhq> Sgeo: The integers are defined by a mapping to the naturals, the rationals are defined as an ordered pair of two integers, the reals are FUCK YOU THATS WHAT.
00:21:55 <elliott> DEDEKIND CUTS FVUCXK YEHAAAAHHH
00:22:30 <Sgeo> "such that all"
00:22:33 <elliott> rational is Z*N not Z^2 pikhq
00:22:38 <Sgeo> FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUU Google
00:22:48 <Sgeo> And Wikipedia for being slow
00:23:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, what do you mean with that statement about the reals?
00:23:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: Harder to derive from memory.
00:24:22 <Vorpal> why start with ZFC and not peano?
00:24:37 <Vorpal> if we are looking at working with integers and so on
00:24:46 -!- Decarabia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:24:52 <pikhq> ZFC is significantly more general is all.
00:25:10 <elliott> can't do reals or anything in peano...
00:25:56 <Sgeo> Why are we assuming C?
00:26:26 <Vorpal> Sgeo, are we assuming complex numbers?
00:26:41 <Sgeo> Vorpal, wrong C
00:26:53 <Vorpal> Sgeo, then what C are you talking about
00:27:05 <Vorpal> The server at en.wikipedia.org is taking too long to respond. <-- wtf
00:27:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, I was checking something else at wikipedia
00:27:29 <pikhq> I can't remember why that's included as an axiom.
00:28:35 <pikhq> Eh, whatever. Just one choice of axioms.
00:29:01 -!- madbr has joined.
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00:30:51 <wareya_> How is measurement dealt with in non-integer dimensional space?
00:32:35 <wareya_> I mean, how can I define the location of something in a space where the number of dimensions is fractional or imaginary?
00:34:15 -!- Decarabia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:35:09 <elliott> pikhq: axiom of choice is an axiom because it's truw
00:35:41 <pikhq> elliott: No, I'm just asking why it was chosen as an axiom in the ZFC axiomatic system. I know that it's a god-damned axiom.
00:35:51 <Sgeo> And it's true because it's an axiom!
00:36:04 <elliott> pikhq: Because we started with ZF and then we realised the Axiom of Choice was true.
00:36:16 <pikhq> elliott: Nooot how axioms work.
00:36:21 <elliott> pikhq: (ZF~C is quite screwy, although as consistent as ZFC.)
00:36:23 <elliott> pikhq: it really is, though
00:36:35 <elliott> pikhq: ~C has implications we don't like, there are no real objections to C
00:36:41 <elliott> pikhq: and a LOT of theorems are based on it
00:36:52 <elliott> (pick one that you know. good probability it relies on choice)
00:36:56 <pikhq> elliott: So, we take C as an axiom because our intuition suggests it *ought* to be true. Got it.
00:37:10 <Sgeo> pikhq, what other reason is there for ch... what elliott said
00:37:35 <pikhq> Except when we dont'.
00:37:35 -!- Decarabia has joined.
00:37:49 <pikhq> (let's take ~C as an axiom!)
00:37:51 <elliott> pikhq: If only the Bible contained an axiomatic system -- a good proportion of the population wouldn't have to argue :P
00:38:06 <elliott> (extra points for demonstration of the bible's inconsistency in that axiomatic system)
00:38:26 <Sgeo> The Bible's axiomatic system is complete!
00:38:38 <Sgeo> [And contains arithmatic, but that ruins the brevity of the joke]
00:38:49 <elliott> pikhq: "But WHY do we accept those axioms?" "'cuz God says so." "Oh. Okay then."
00:39:04 <elliott> pikhq: Infinite points for proving that the axiomatic system is inconsistent and thus contradicting the Bible's infallibility.
00:39:41 <pikhq> elliott: And from that we demonstrate that God can produce a stone too heavy for him to lift, and thus by being omnipotent he isn't omnipotent.
00:40:14 <elliott> pikhq: I think you're going to Hell for that.
00:40:43 <Sgeo> Only if that's blaspheming the Holy Spirit
00:40:46 <elliott> pikhq: Man, the Bible should have come with a controversy-resolving appendix.
00:40:56 <Sgeo> Does blaspheming "God" count as blaspheming the Holy Spirit?
00:41:00 <elliott> pikhq: Thou shalt not kill.[1]
00:41:04 <elliott> pikhq: 1. Killing for God counts as killing.
00:41:53 <elliott> (lie with another man abomination blah blah)[1]
00:42:01 -!- Decarabia has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:42:26 <elliott> 1. But lesbians are DEFINITELY okay.
00:44:06 <pikhq> elliott: If only God had left some notes in the margin.
00:44:20 * Sgeo wonders why his link karma is increasing
00:44:30 <pikhq> "Thou shalt not kill. No, seriously. No killing at all, that's a total dick move."
00:44:34 <Sgeo> Last I checked the link I submitted, it was doing badly (and arguably rightfully so0
00:44:57 <elliott> pikhq: And verily, Jesus spoketh unto the men: "Additionally, thou'st polynomial time art not the same as thou'st polynomial time that be deterministic not."
00:45:58 <elliott> pikhq: It would be SO AWESOME if people became atheists because they thought P=NP after that.
00:46:58 <pikhq> elliott: Man. With a time machine you could troll people insanely well.
00:47:04 <pikhq> The Gospel of Elliott.
00:47:32 <elliott> I'd go stab all the authors and yell "DO YOU KNOW WHAT CONSEQUENCES THIS WILL HAVE GODDAMMIT"
00:47:51 <elliott> pikhq: Theory: Most of the Bible is Bible fanfiction.
00:48:07 <elliott> pikhq: Later on, people didn't realise this, as it was stored in the same place, and combined them.
00:48:11 <elliott> Thus the inconsistencies, bullshit, etc.
00:48:34 <Vorpal> elliott, who is then the Mary Sue?
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00:49:02 <pikhq> elliott: That is essentially the only way to actually take the Bible in *any* way seriously without being completely retarded.
00:49:13 <elliott> Vorpal: Either God or Jesus or both.
00:49:23 <elliott> Jesus if they were a hippie, God if they were a fucking asshole.
00:49:24 <pikhq> elliott: Same, I'm sure, goes for most any other rather old religious body of work...
00:49:30 <elliott> (God killed way too many people in the Bible.)
00:49:54 <elliott> pikhq: Isn't figuring out what parts of the Bible to believe too much damn work? Atheism is so much simpler...
00:49:57 <pikhq> (for more modern religious works, it's fairly easy to just demonstrate that the author was retarded.)
00:50:25 <elliott> Most of them are pretty similar to the Bible except N years later :P
00:50:26 <pikhq> (see: Scientology)
00:50:37 <coppro> pikhq: or possibly brilliant
00:50:45 <elliott> They only seem crazier because we've adopted so much Christianity in our culture.
00:50:49 <elliott> pikhq: OK, Scientology I'll grant.
00:51:01 <Vorpal> only Buddhism is anything like a halfway sane religion IMO.
00:51:03 <elliott> The space planes that look just like NASA ones is... a bit too much to even start to take seriously.
00:51:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Ahh, I see that a lot and, well, most people have an idealised perception of Buddhism that simply doesn't reflect modern practice.
00:51:34 <Vorpal> elliott, true, not all branches of it are sane
00:51:36 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, but it's really really *really* easy to see that more modern religions are genuinely bullshit. Whereas older ones, the evidence of making it up kinda died. What with not being popular in a time when the only way to perpetuate something was to be popular enough to get copied over and over again.
00:51:38 <Vorpal> elliott, which I never claimed
00:51:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Buddhists -- well, most western buddhists are just hippies, but non-western -- believe in gods, hell, etc.
00:51:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Sort of like how most of what Jesus said was pretty cool but nobody actually adheres to it.
00:52:18 <Vorpal> elliott, true for several branches indeed.
00:52:19 <elliott> pikhq: How are you still Christian? You have amazing powers of cognitive dissonance X-P
00:52:32 <Vorpal> wait, is pikhq christian?
00:52:47 <Vorpal> that is just.... *total mental reverse*
00:52:51 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, I'm more along the point of "Jesus was a pretty cool dude, and why the hell do people even care about the rest of that shlock."
00:52:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, that information is months and months old.
00:52:57 <pikhq> Erm, lines. Not point.
00:53:10 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean it might be outdated :P
00:53:20 <elliott> pikhq: Okay; you'd previously stated yourself to be Christian, which I kind of mentally interpret to include belief in supernatural things and all that.
00:53:58 <pikhq> elliott: I'm willing to accept a supernatural origin of the universe, but do I know? Not at all.
00:54:26 <elliott> Yeah the furthest I go speculating about the universe's origin is the mathematical universe hypothesis.
00:54:35 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, about ZFC above. Why would *you* want ZFC? You are constructivist, right?
00:54:37 <elliott> (tl;dr every self-consistent mathematical object exists)
00:54:52 <elliott> Vorpal: I was only ever half-serious about that.
00:54:54 <Sgeo> What would someone who has the idea "The idea of Jesus, whether or not he was real in any way, is a nice way to help unload some of my unhealthy guilt" be called?
00:55:15 <pikhq> Sgeo: That's a security blanket, dude.
00:55:29 <elliott> Vorpal: I like Coq and the like which use constructivist logics, and I do have a sneaking suspicion that ZFC is inconsistent, and I *do* instinctively distrust non-constructive things... but really, naw.
00:56:06 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, and I am and always have been absolutely refusing to buy the common idea that a loving deity would actually send people to hell for doing things that he declares somehow "wrong". I mean, just *what the hell*.
00:56:30 <elliott> pikhq: yeah hell is just beyond bullshit
00:56:32 <pikhq> Even if you buy the idea that a deity created everything, is personally involved in your life, and has the power to do that...
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00:56:49 <elliott> If there's a god that will punish me for not believing in him, fuck him. All the cool people will be in hell anyway.
00:56:51 <pikhq> Why in the world would a benevolent being sentence anyone to *eternal pain and agony*?
00:57:02 <Vorpal> heaven might be bullshit too
00:57:17 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean bullshit as in "a really terrible idea".
00:57:29 <elliott> Admittedly the Christian view of Heaven is incredibly naïve.
00:57:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah but it is the devil. Err wait. What happened to that omnipotence?
00:57:40 <elliott> It's white and pearly and awesome! Fuck you!
00:57:46 <Sgeo> I want someone to tell me "You're going to burn in hell, I really don't want you to" so I can tell them that they're nicer than God
00:57:56 <pikhq> You'd have to be genuinely malevolent to sentence people to eternal torment.
00:58:00 <elliott> Sgeo: OH THAT'LL LEARN THEM
00:58:10 <elliott> Sgeo: Next you'll be questioning their epistemological justification.
00:58:12 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe it is like minecraft. Only real and without the lag.
00:58:34 <elliott> Vorpal: So, like Prime Intellect. :P
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00:58:50 <elliott> Except you can do it automatically if you want.
00:58:53 <Vorpal> elliott, well I didn't actually mean like that, but you could interpret it that way.
00:59:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Prime Intellect is basically an advanced real-life Minecraft + automation tool :P
00:59:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I read that stuff
00:59:48 <elliott> Of course it's not very utopian.
01:00:03 <elliott> Vorpal: oh, you mean Creating Friendly AI?
01:00:06 <pikhq> I can buy the concept of a benevolent deity creating heaven. I can even just barely accept the idea of that same deity creating this shitty planet (you have to start by assuming he's not actually perfect, but just well-intentioned...). But *eternal pain and agony is not at all removed from taking a magnifying glass and burning ants to watch them squirm.*
01:00:07 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah. but not at 01:59
01:00:14 <elliott> Vorpal: I meant The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect.
01:00:46 <elliott> pikhq: I DO THAT! ...I don't actually
01:01:01 <elliott> pikhq: At least ant sentience is far from certain :P
01:01:30 <Vorpal> elliott, an anthill as a collective might have a sentience
01:01:38 <Sgeo> When I was a kid, I.. kind of stepped on ants :/
01:02:03 <Vorpal> elliott, well, not sure about ants, for bees it seems somewhat plausible.
01:02:12 <elliott> "Man eats a pound of bacon a day for a month and loses weight, lowers his blood pressure."
01:02:17 <elliott> IT'S LIKE A DREAM COME TRUE
01:02:53 <Vorpal> elliott, and it would be nice and fit a story. Thus probably just a wishful dream (wrt ants and bees)
01:03:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Eh... collective sentience seems quite plausible to me.
01:03:38 <elliott> Vorpal: I think if you could somehow ask a really difficult question to everyone on the internet, every discussion forum, everything -- and make sure they listened -- you'd have it answered insanely quickly, insanely well.
01:03:39 <Vorpal> elliott, well, perhaps. But you have to be careful to not just think so because it fits a mental story.
01:03:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Of course the problem is that you can't; the Internet is probably sentient in some sense but you can't do anything with it.
01:03:57 <Vorpal> elliott, enough to ask here. Takes a bit longer of course.
01:04:00 <elliott> Vorpal: But you see... glimpses of it, every now and then.
01:04:45 <Vorpal> elliott, either someone in the channel is an expert or knows someone who is. This was established some time ago.
01:04:57 <elliott> this channel is rather awesome.
01:05:15 <elliott> Now if we could just stop anyone else joining :P
01:05:17 <elliott> Vorpal: can a normal person actually buy the POSIX standard?
01:05:18 <pikhq> It's even more cruel to believe in a God who sentences sinners to hell, *and has made a world whereby it is impossible for humans not to sin*.
01:05:33 <pikhq> You'd just have to be a complete asshole to be that God.
01:05:44 <Vorpal> elliott, why would you need to?
01:05:49 <elliott> http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/source/browse/#svn/trunk/tools/apout THIS PORTABLE UNIX PROGRAM, WHEN GIVEN A PDP-11 EXECUTABLE, WILL EMULATE IT.
01:05:49 <Vorpal> elliott, you can get it for free
01:06:00 <elliott> It will *see your filesystem*.
01:06:03 <pikhq> (it is commonly accepted Christian theology that all have sinned, and hence all are sentenced to hell.)
01:06:08 <elliott> $ /usr/local/bin/apout /work/unixv5/bin/ls -l
01:06:10 <elliott> And get a directory listing.
01:06:43 <elliott> pikhq: Calvinism has to be my favourite screwy theology.
01:06:56 <elliott> pikhq: The nice thing is that you can completely ignore it because your fate is predetermined. The not so nice thing is that you're probably fucked.
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01:07:19 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you need to either get POSIX by IEEE or by opengroup. The latter is free, gratis. Just need to register your email, wait a bit (iirc it was manual activation, so took about a day), then download the pdf
01:07:40 <elliott> Vorpal: is that the official one, or the in-development one you can find via google?
01:07:44 <elliott> Vorpal: also, is it available as html?
01:08:00 <elliott> Vorpal: IEEE isn't an option as I'm trying to boycott them :)
01:08:22 <Vorpal> elliott, no idea about html. The older one, 2001/SuSv<whatever> is available as tarball of html though
01:08:41 <elliott> Older is fine, I just want to beat Microcosm's ass >:)
01:08:48 <elliott> We're talkin' user-mode POSIX here.
01:09:03 <Vorpal> elliott, well the issue with microcosm is supporting windows
01:09:17 <pikhq> elliott: Y'know, the world would be a much better place if Christians were in any way like Christ.
01:09:17 <Vorpal> elliott, which means a VFS
01:09:33 <elliott> > device add block 8G ./some_file
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01:09:44 <elliott> Vorpal: In this case, it'd manage all its "devices" itself.
01:09:53 <elliott> Vorpal: You'd just make various "devices" be parts of the host machine.
01:10:01 <Vorpal> elliott, the mtime/ctime/atime semantics
01:10:04 <elliott> It'd be just like a POSIX kernel running on bare hardware, except it's running on POSIX instead.
01:10:14 <elliott> Vorpal: That's a filesystem option, isn't it?
01:10:17 <elliott> I may have misinterpreted you.
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01:10:42 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to do something for it though
01:10:51 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't understand.
01:11:36 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it is not available on all FSes. But what do you return for those cases? Some junk value?
01:11:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, it'd depend on your inner system.
01:11:56 <Vorpal> elliott, stat()s structure looks the way it does for *all* fses after all
01:11:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Remember that in this case, some_file is treated like /dev/sda.
01:12:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Except that I phrased it more generally; it'd be /dev/block1 or something on the inner system.
01:12:16 <elliott> Vorpal: You'd partition it and do "mkfs" on it.
01:12:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Hey, it's user-mode POSIX.
01:12:32 <Vorpal> elliott, that drops the point of it
01:12:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Not user-mode-oh-but-we-use-bits-of-the-host-system POSIX.
01:12:42 <elliott> Vorpal: It's a proper POSIX kernel implemented in user space!
01:13:15 <elliott> http://limerickdb.com/?380 ;; someone please explain quantum mechanics in limericks
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01:14:40 * Sgeo diffracts elliott
01:15:14 <Vorpal> elliott, so what do you think of string theory?
01:15:33 <elliott> It's not true, unless it is!
01:15:46 <Vorpal> elliott, and which do you suspect is more likely?
01:15:52 <elliott> I am not really sure it is even vaguely falsifiable. They need to propose tests, stat.
01:16:09 <elliott> Until they do, I can't really comment, especially as I have no physics education of that level.
01:16:19 <Sgeo> What does diffracted matter look like, actually?
01:16:30 <Vorpal> elliott, as far as I understand, it is kind of hard to come up with new tests though
01:16:41 <elliott> Vorpal: But I'll say that while it doesn't seem particularly likely to me, I don't see any promising unifications of quantum mechanics and relativity, either.
01:16:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, if their theory isn't falsifiable, they've already lost.
01:17:09 <Vorpal> elliott, hm maybe they *can't* be unified
01:17:15 <Sgeo> What if it's falsifiable in theory but not in practice?
01:17:16 <Vorpal> maybe there isn't a global single rule
01:17:36 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> What does diffracted matter look like, actually? <--- uh....
01:17:37 <elliott> hmm, what happens with -o gid,uid on a unix partition?
01:17:54 <elliott> i'd like to mount /dev/sda2 on /k to do kitten work, owned and writable by my user
01:17:55 <Vorpal> elliott, hopefully "unknown option"
01:17:58 <elliott> but have it save as files owned by root
01:17:59 <Sgeo> Vorpal, not asking for a picture
01:18:18 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ sudo mount -o uid=1000,gid=1000 /dev/sda2 /k
01:18:20 <Vorpal> elliott, mount it and chmod it?
01:18:33 <elliott> Vorpal: that'll save files as user 1000 / group 1000, though
01:18:38 <elliott> Vorpal: I want them to be stored as 0 / 0
01:18:41 <Sgeo> I would like a computer-generated image of such a thing though
01:18:45 <Vorpal> elliott, uh. Did that work?
01:18:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, okay it mounted
01:18:58 <elliott> Vorpal: it ran but it probably didn't do what i want
01:19:06 <Vorpal> elliott, what are the semantics indeed
01:19:16 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ echo hi >/k/x
01:19:16 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ sudo umount /k
01:19:16 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ sudo mount /dev/sda2 /k
01:19:17 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 3 Nov 11 01:18 x
01:19:32 <elliott> Vorpal: probably just makes sure /k is writable by me or something silly like that
01:19:36 <pikhq> elliott: The LHC is actually testing *a* string theory.
01:19:43 <Vorpal> elliott, it is the *sanest* thing to do
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01:22:25 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, actually. Fek, this is hard to understand.
01:22:50 <pikhq> Okay, it's testing something to do with string theory that I postively do not understand at all.
01:23:28 <pikhq> And testing electroweakstrong unification. That I *do* understand.
01:24:26 <pikhq> And the extra dimensions predicted by string theories.
01:24:41 <elliott> pikhq: Say, with Gentoo I can make it compile all packages with a statically-linked uClibc if I want, right? X-P
01:24:47 <elliott> (note: /me is never going to use gentoo, don't worry)
01:24:58 <pikhq> elliott: Not been supported for 5 years.
01:25:10 <elliott> pikhq: What isn't? DOING THINGS YOUR OWN WAY?
01:25:57 <Sgeo> electroweakSTRONG unification?
01:26:03 <Sgeo> I've vaguely heard of electroweak
01:26:33 <Sgeo> Also, is this strong on the level of nucleons, or strong on the level of quarks and gluons?
01:26:53 <elliott> Strong on the level of MEN.
01:26:54 * Sgeo guesses the latter
01:27:10 * Sgeo still has no idea what the weak force DOES, exactly
01:27:36 <pikhq> Sgeo: Electroweak unification is confirmed.
01:28:20 * Sgeo still needs a handle on what the weak nuclear force is
01:28:26 <Sgeo> Particles changing themselves?
01:28:49 <Sgeo> Oh, some radioactive stff
01:29:25 <Sgeo> Also, only force affecting neutrinos, besides gravity
01:29:27 <elliott> pikhq: So what isn't supported? :p
01:29:28 <Sgeo> That's awesome
01:29:53 <pikhq> elliott: uclibc. At all.
01:30:17 <Sgeo> neutron -> proton + electron
01:30:27 <Sgeo> That's a simpler thing than I was expecting
01:30:42 <Sgeo> But why does a conversion like that need messenger particles/
01:30:58 <pikhq> That is not a snark, it's the actual reasoning.
01:31:00 <elliott> pikhq: Gentoo: Freedom from choice!
01:31:28 <Sgeo> Oh, the page on Wikipedia has a nice diagram. The heavy thingy decays
01:32:00 * Sgeo wants to learn all this stuff without formal schooling
01:32:43 <pikhq> Quantum mechanics is both easier and harder than you expect.
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01:33:02 <coppro> quantum mechanics is /awesome/
01:33:06 <elliott> Sgeo: CHANGE YOUR MAJOR TO PHYSICS! On second thoughts, DON'T.
01:33:12 <coppro> also quantum information theory
01:33:21 <elliott> coppro: you said "elliott: register"
01:33:41 <pikhq> elliott: What are the odds of a physics undergrad covering all the awesome stuff in physics, rather than just classical mechanics and relativity?
01:33:47 <Sgeo> elliott, I've been somewhat offput from physics courses due to my HS physics being macrolevel stuff
01:33:59 <pikhq> ... Okay, I'll grant that there's some awesome stuff in relativity as well.
01:34:06 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure we didn't cover relativity
01:34:16 <pikhq> Mass-energy equivalence, for instance, is pretty sweet.
01:34:38 <pikhq> Sgeo: "Undergrad". As in "an undergraduate physics program".
01:34:40 <Sgeo> In elementary school, I used to fantasize about that
01:34:57 <pikhq> And the units work!
01:35:02 <elliott> pikhq: I should probably mount kitten at /mnt/kitten, not /k, shouldn't I.
01:35:02 <pikhq> (hooray, SI base units)
01:35:11 <elliott> pikhq: And just set K=/mnt/kitten.
01:35:30 <coppro> pikhq: mine certainly covers that stuff
01:35:31 <elliott> <Sgeo> Why are we assuming C?
01:35:31 <elliott> <Vorpal> Sgeo, are we assuming complex numbers?
01:35:31 <elliott> <Vorpal> Sgeo, then what C are you talking about
01:35:31 * Sgeo feeds elliott a banana
01:35:33 <elliott> <Vorpal> The server at en.wikipedia.org is ta
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01:35:48 <coppro> elliott: p. sure comex != coppro
01:36:16 <Sgeo> elliott, why the paste?
01:36:22 <pikhq> coppro: So, you go beyond classical and relativistic mechanics out into quantum?
01:36:34 <coppro> pikhq: Quantum Mechanics 1 is a second-year course
01:36:39 <coppro> (which I fully intend on taking!)
01:36:54 <pikhq> coppro: ... Dammit, now I think I'm in the wrong major.
01:37:19 * Sgeo wonders if there is any OpenCourseWare on quantum mechanics, and if it's decent
01:37:39 <coppro> pikhq: Admittedly, my school has a lot of focus on quantum because of quantum computing
01:37:41 * Sgeo goes looking for the answer to the first part of that question
01:38:00 <elliott> coppro: Just tell me nobody buys into the D-Wave crap.
01:38:10 <elliott> pikhq: WHY SHOULDN'T I MOUNT IT AS /k :P
01:38:28 <Sgeo> elliott, because I'll keep feeding you bananas
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01:38:30 <elliott> Sgeo: Either morons or unscrupulous cons that claim to have quantum computers far beyond the state of the art.
01:38:35 <elliott> The media tends to believe them.
01:38:44 <coppro> pikhq: also the Perimter Institute. That place is epic.
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01:39:20 <elliott> pikhq: See, you have NO arguments against my awesome path.
01:39:54 <elliott> Sgeo: "In the absence of evidence from D-Wave that their 16 qubits are coherent, scientists are understandably skeptical. If D-Wave’s qubits are not coherent, as many scientists suspect, their computer would be classical, not quantum. This would still be consistent with the results of the demo, since the decohering qubits would act like classical random bits, and the adiabatic computer would act like
01:39:54 <elliott> a classical computer implementing simulated annealing, which would be quite fast for a small 16 bit Ising problem." etc.
01:40:04 <pikhq> elliott: Unless they mean "computers that rely on quantum mechanics to function", they're full of shit. (gotta love the tunnelling diode)
01:40:34 <elliott> [[During this time, D-Wave also claimed that by the end of 2008 they would have a 128-qubit system, a claim that was widely doubted due to both the lack of evidence that they are capable of creating coherent qubits at all, and that in November 2007 they only had a 28-qubit system. However, on December 19, 2008, they announced a "128 qubit" chip.]]
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01:40:56 <Sgeo> Has anyone gotten their hands on one of these?
01:41:08 <elliott> Sgeo: Uhh, I think they gave a university department a computer.
01:41:10 <elliott> So, avoid that university.
01:41:16 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Wave_Systems#Criticism
01:41:28 <Sgeo> Surely that university is trying it out to see if they can do anything interesting
01:41:52 <elliott> It is almost impossible to tell whether the processors are in fact quantum really.
01:41:59 <elliott> Without seeing their manufacturing process.
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01:42:18 <pikhq> And if you believe that I've got a bridge to sell you.
01:42:20 <elliott> pikhq: Best part: [[ "Their claimed speedup over classical algorithms appears to be based on a misunderstanding of a paper my colleagues van Dam, Mosca and I wrote on “The power of adiabatic quantum computing”. That speed up unfortunately does not hold in the setting at hand, and therefore D-Wave’s “quantum computer” even if it turns out to be a true quantum computer, and even if it can be
01:42:20 <elliott> scaled to thousands of qubits, would likely not be more powerful than a cell phone."]]
01:42:36 <elliott> pikhq: The worst part is that their blog: http://dwave.wordpress.com/ doesn't look strange or suspicious at all.
01:42:48 <elliott> Until you get to them offhandedly mentioning their 839572398472389472389 qubit computers.
01:43:07 <elliott> pikhq: Note: Number is a JOKE.
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01:43:14 <elliott> [[Vern Brownell is the founder of Egenera and was the CTO of Goldman Sachs for 11 years. His most important job to date, however, is his current one which is being CEO of D-Wave.]]
01:43:17 <elliott> Low opinion of Goldman Sachs.
01:44:02 <pikhq> elliott: 74,5690 pebiqubits would be quite astounding.
01:44:27 <pikhq> Heck, 74,5690 pebibits would be awesome RAM.
01:44:45 <elliott> pikhq: No, that figure is QUBIT DISK.
01:45:11 <pikhq> RAID-1, I suppose. You can afford to halve the space.
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01:47:16 <elliott> pikhq: Linux From Scratch appears to assume you're root all the way through. Nice...
01:48:17 <elliott> pikhq: I think that Kitten will start out as x86-64 only, but with a high likelihood of supporting i386, especially if disk space isn't a problem.
01:49:14 <elliott> http://usu-shaft.com/2010/my-bishop-masturbation-leads-to-homosexuality/ That conversation log... uhh, wow @ Mormonism.
01:51:01 <Sgeo> "I come from a sexual family, sorry to say. I got it from both parents."
01:51:18 <Sgeo> Maybe I shouldn't be laughing at this
01:52:17 * Sgeo ponders the possibility of societal pressures forcing two asexuals to get together and have a family
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01:52:33 <elliott> pikhq: Please tell me what /media vs. /mnt is meant to mean. /media is external media and /mnt is internal hard drives?
01:52:38 <elliott> pikhq: (Kitten will only have /mnt.)
01:52:48 <elliott> Sgeo: You do realise that asexual people can still love?
01:53:21 <elliott> Sgeo: Hell, if they don't have an aversion to sex and just don't enjoy it, they could easily make a baby the old fashioned way.
01:53:23 <pikhq> elliott: /media is managed automatically.
01:53:32 <elliott> pikhq: Is that the sole reason for its existence?
01:53:42 <Sgeo> Do heterosexual men tend to fall in love with men?
01:53:52 <elliott> Sgeo: Asexual != aromantic.
01:54:13 <elliott> Sgeo: For non-asexual people, love is generally quite strongly linked to sexual desire.
01:54:21 <elliott> Almost certainly not always.
01:54:25 <elliott> For asexual people this is of course not true.
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01:54:47 <elliott> Wikipedia cites http://www.asexuality.org/home/relationship.html and http://www.gayline.gen.nz/asexual.htm for asexual people having relationships.
01:55:29 <elliott> pikhq: Who thought atime was a good idea?
01:56:10 * Sgeo suddenly ponders
01:56:32 <Sgeo> I have the same feeling that I had when I read Wicked
01:56:38 <pikhq> elliott: People who think writing is awesome.
01:57:09 <Sgeo> Wicked opened my eyes to the fact that "aspirituality" is in, some sense, an option. Doesn't mean I believed it because it's in a fiction book, but just.. the notion
01:57:20 <elliott> pikhq: Sweet! Kitten's installer will put noatime everywhere.
01:57:27 <Sgeo> Here, the idea of sexuality and romantic feelings being disconnected is ... something I can relate with, I think
01:57:52 <elliott> pikhq: (Note: Until my laziness ceases, Kitten's installer will be an xterm and a keyboard operated by an intelligent user reading the partitioning, package installation and bootloader set-up manual.)
01:57:59 <Sgeo> Until 12th grade or so, for me, there was always a very distinct ... difference between "wanting to see naked" and "having a crush on"
01:58:06 <Sgeo> This is getting TMIy
01:58:19 <elliott> YOU SAID THE WORD NAKED ZOMG
01:58:58 <elliott> pikhq: I can't believe the joking feline nickname has stuck X-P
02:00:53 * Sgeo also wonders if it's possible to want to see nudity, but be ... I'm pretty certain it is possible, but I have no idea if that's the case with me
02:01:58 <elliott> That... makes basically no sense.
02:02:10 <Sgeo> but be uninterested in having sex itself
02:02:32 <elliott> I suppose one could be too scarred from some traumatic incident to have actual sexual contact, but still be privately sexual.
02:02:40 <elliott> But that's not a sexual preference, that's just trauma.
02:03:08 <Sgeo> Then again, the only metric I currently have to measure my interest is my imagination
02:03:56 <elliott> Sgeo: You could just be rationalising a perceived inability to get laid :P
02:05:31 <Sgeo> In my mind's eye, I'd love to cuddle with a girl. I'd love to see her naked. But actual sex... well, considering that I don't know what it's like.. (not that I really know what those other things are li... that's technically not true, but I'd prefer to pretend)
02:06:11 <Sgeo> That sounds wrong. Gives a wrong impression
02:06:24 <Sgeo> There's no trauma that I know of involving any physical contact
02:06:45 <elliott> "Oh, my penis was ripped off when I was 3 -- I JUST FORGOT ABOUT IT."
02:06:51 <elliott> (note: repressed memories are unscientific)
02:07:04 <Sgeo> What about forgotten memories?
02:07:14 <Sgeo> Although I guess it's difficult to forget some things
02:07:26 <elliott> If you forget abuse, it either wasn't abuse or you have chronic amnesia.
02:08:54 <elliott> Sgeo: I think it is "relatively" common to shy away from actual sex due to some worry about harming the partner...
02:09:01 <elliott> At least I'm pretty sure I've seen it.
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02:12:18 <elliott> pikhq: Btw, you should say Unix, not UNIX.
02:12:50 <elliott> pikhq: The original papers typeset it as "Unix", smallcapsed. UNIX is just the obnoxious trademark failure of a rendering :P
02:12:59 <elliott> Gregor: SHUT UP I'M SPREADING THE WORD (and pikhq is far more annoyingly pedantic than I)
02:14:41 <Gregor> EUNUCHS EUNUCHS EUNUCHS
02:15:47 <pikhq> elliott: |_||\|1><
02:15:50 <elliott> pikhq: if you don't want me to use a big ol' static dev now is the time to convince me
02:16:02 <pikhq> elliott: Arguments against static dev: hotplugging.
02:16:15 <elliott> pikhq: Just have the devices you hotplug already there :P
02:16:26 <elliott> Sure, they won't *work* if you don't have the device plugged in, but...
02:16:52 <pikhq> But what if you don't know what devices you might plug in?
02:17:23 <pikhq> Anyways, arguments for static dev: no magic, it just freaking works, and it's easy to understand.
02:17:32 <elliott> pikhq: Well, if you have sd[abcdefg][0-9], that covers all USB drives and the like.
02:17:42 <elliott> pikhq: Admittedly that's a lot of files, but whatever.
02:18:14 <elliott> pikhq: I don't particularly *mind* udev from what I've seen, but it has a library, a daemon, an administration command...
02:18:28 <elliott> And I can't think of any good arguments against static dev other than "well, it's a lot of inodes!".
02:18:43 <pikhq> elliott: You could also pull out Busybox's udev-alike.
02:19:05 <elliott> pikhq: (It's possible that I'll use BusyBox for coreutils, unless you link me to a decent coreutils that isn't Heirloom in three seconds.)
02:19:49 <pikhq> Busybox is workable as a coreutils. Though make it so that replacing individual programs in it is easy, please?
02:20:22 <elliott> pikhq: Ugh, if I can get away with it I'll make it build every program separately.
02:20:43 <elliott> pikhq: I guess you don't know of any alternatives, then. :
02:21:22 <pikhq> elliott: Heirloom or porting or writing your own.
02:21:28 <elliott> pikhq: Incidentally, have you *seen* BusyBox? It has its own gzip/bzip2/xz implementation. Its own tar. Its own *dpkg*.
02:21:52 <pikhq> And it still sucks less than many other things.
02:22:16 <pikhq> How do you feel about Minix?
02:22:25 <Sgeo> busybox includes dpkg? Why?
02:22:41 <elliott> Sgeo: No. It includes its *own* mini version of dpkg.
02:22:51 <elliott> pikhq: What license is Minix again?
02:22:59 <Sgeo> Why does it include its own mini version of dpkg?
02:23:11 <elliott> http://www.minix3.org/license.html
02:23:14 <pikhq> elliott: Minix 3 is BSD.
02:23:15 <Sgeo> Does it include its own mini version of rpm?
02:23:26 <elliott> pikhq: [[# Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.]]
02:23:33 <elliott> pikhq: Isn't that, y'know, an advertising clause?
02:23:52 <Sgeo> Wasn't advertising clause the thing that caused issues with BSD licenses?
02:23:59 <pikhq> elliott: No, that isn't an advertising clause.
02:24:31 <Sgeo> elliott, so why would an advertising clause imply compatibility with a BSD license, is what I was asking
02:24:39 <pikhq> elliott: That's in 2-clause BSD, BTW.
02:24:42 <Sgeo> incompatibility dammit
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02:24:51 <elliott> Sgeo: BSD4 is no longer used at all.
02:24:59 <elliott> Sgeo: Clause 4 is the advertising clause.
02:25:10 <elliott> Sgeo: And besides, it's a custom license whether it's compatible or not; it is not the BSD license.
02:25:18 <elliott> pikhq: For *binary* redistributions? Really?
02:25:27 <pikhq> elliott: "All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software must display the following acknowledgement: This product includes software developed by the <organization>."
02:25:32 <pikhq> elliott: That is the advertising clause.
02:25:35 <elliott> pikhq: No. I don't see huge lists of BSD-licensed programs in Debian listed in any manual.
02:25:59 <Sgeo> pikhq, thank you for encouraging my laziness
02:26:13 <pikhq> elliott: It's in the /usr/share/doc/... for each BSD-licensed program.
02:26:41 <elliott> pikhq: LAWL, remind me not to use BSD2.
02:27:05 <pikhq> elliott: Something similar is also in the GPL.
02:27:07 <elliott> pikhq: Well. I suppose it depends on the interpretation.
02:27:30 <elliott> pikhq: Of course the notice should be retained with source distributions. But I don't see why manuals for random software should have to have one of them for EVERY BIT OF BSD SOFTWARE USED.
02:27:52 <pikhq> Anyways, it appears that MINIX possesses a NetBSD coreutils that's not BSD-specific.
02:28:01 <pikhq> Might be worth a shot.
02:28:55 <Sgeo> I have managed to recognize bad fiction as bad1
02:28:56 <elliott> pikhq: Bah, even the Fair License has that clause:
02:28:58 <elliott> [[Usage of the works is permitted provided that this instrument is retained with the works, so that any entity that uses the works is notified of this instrument.
02:28:58 <elliott> DISCLAIMER: THE WORKS ARE WITHOUT WARRANTY.]]
02:28:58 <Sgeo> It's a miracle!
02:29:07 <Sgeo> (Then again, it's deliberately bad)
02:29:15 <Sgeo> http://marigoldfarmer.tumblr.com/ [NSFWText]
02:30:02 <Sgeo> http://questionablecontent.net/
02:30:14 <elliott> Sgeo: Where, exactly, is the NSFWness in the text?
02:30:34 <Sgeo> Actually, now that I actually read a bit more.. I don't thiink there is
02:31:15 <elliott> pikhq: Okay, TODO: Try and build NetBSD coreutils. Then: Minix.
02:31:20 <Sgeo> "So they totally had sex, and it was the most amazing sex in the history of wizarding or muggles or even Space Wizard"
02:31:27 <elliott> Sgeo: ...that's not even profane..
02:31:37 <elliott> pikhq: Even though I don't really want NetBSD coreutils; cp(1) doesn't even have -a!
02:31:50 <Sgeo> elliott, I see that
02:31:55 <Sgeo> When I linked, I didn't
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02:34:26 <elliott> Makefile:8: *** missing separator. Stop.
02:34:46 <elliott> All of the Makefiles are like that.
02:35:00 * elliott checks out the full sources to try and find that
02:35:43 <pikhq> Makes everything so much harder.
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02:37:57 <elliott> Fuck that, src/ is huge. I'll get the files I need manually.
02:38:08 <elliott> pikhq: The BSD guys should really just reimplement gmake :P
02:38:40 <elliott> [[I transfer a prop from Sgeo, who I can't recall has ever submitted a productive proposal]] --coppro
02:39:00 <elliott> coppro: all my proposals have been productive!! i don't actually recall what i've proposed :P
02:39:27 <Sgeo> I changed some FINE stuff, didn't I!
02:39:31 <Sgeo> Which.. didn't really last
02:39:32 <elliott> pikhq: csh. I'm so reassured.
02:40:31 <elliott> pikhq: Believe this: NetBSD echo(1) does not compile with stock gcc. Not joking.
02:40:41 <elliott> Because I need sys/cdefs.h.
02:41:11 <elliott> pikhq: Why has everyone FORGOTTEN WHAT PORTABILITY IS.
02:41:46 <Sgeo> I got four proposals adopted!
02:42:09 <elliott> pikhq: elliott@dinky:~/nc/src/bin/echo$ cc -D'__COPYRIGHT(x)=' -D'__RCSID(x)=' echo.c -o echo
02:42:09 <elliott> /tmp/ccaV89zK.o: In function `main':
02:42:09 <elliott> echo.c:(.text+0x1f): undefined reference to `setprogname'
02:43:40 <elliott> boot etc kernel LICENSE man test
02:43:40 <elliott> drivers include lib Makefile servers tools
02:43:42 <Sgeo> coppro, you really believe all four of my successful proposals were unproductive/
02:43:45 <elliott> pikhq: Err... where are you seeing their coreutils?
02:43:47 * Sgeo is taking this a bit too seriously
02:43:53 <Sgeo> How do you define "productive"?
02:44:02 <elliott> Sgeo: haven't all your proposals been useless hardening against nonexistent threats
02:44:16 <Sgeo> elliott, only 3
02:44:40 <Sgeo> http://zenith.homelinux.net/assessor/list.php?author=Sgeo
02:44:52 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/minix/src/tools$ ls
02:44:52 <elliott> chrootmake.sh Makefile release revision
02:44:52 <elliott> issue.install mkboot release.sh tell_config
02:45:00 <pikhq> elliott: ... Or not.
02:45:07 <pikhq> elliott: I had it pulled up earlier.
02:45:13 <elliott> pikhq: that's from the source tarball. did you look at svn?
02:45:22 <elliott> Here be dragons! Finding unexpected bugs and incompatabilities is "par for the course" when tracking current. By and large, you are on your own if anything goes wrong; although, you always can try to ask for help in the newsgroup. Good bug reports, however -- if it comes to that -- are very welcome.
02:45:26 <Sgeo> Internment, Senator-Only Elections, and Indefinite Emergencies are the invasion ones
02:45:28 <elliott> at least coreutils will hopefully not change much
02:45:30 <pikhq> Ah, it's in commands/ on their SVN.
02:45:35 <Sgeo> *Indefinite-length Emergencies
02:46:13 <elliott> $ svn --username anonymous checkout https://gforge.cs.vu.nl/svn/minix/trunk/src/commands
02:46:27 <elliott> Hope it doesn't depend on other files...
02:46:40 <elliott> pikhq: You didn't tell me it was a heap of commands not sorted into core vs. extra :P
02:47:05 <Sgeo> elliott, the prop doesn't transfer
02:47:11 <elliott> cal.c seems relatively sane.
02:47:28 <elliott> pikhq: and cal.c doesn't compile
02:47:29 <Sgeo> Unless it's anothe Sgeo-situation with prop transfers
02:47:41 <Sgeo> coppro sent it to a-d
02:49:18 <pikhq> elliott: Busybox, then?
02:49:39 <elliott> pikhq: bleh. the build system didn't even LET me split it out last time
02:49:45 <elliott> i might have missed something.
02:52:25 <elliott> pikhq: I KNOW! LET'S WRITE OUR OWN COREUTILS
02:53:44 <elliott> [[Work is underway on new options such as "make standalone" to build separate binaries for each applet, and a "libbb.so" to make the busybox common code available as a shared library. Neither is ready yet at the time of this writing.]]
02:54:37 <coppro> elliott: I want a busy beaver
02:54:53 <pikhq> Give me a beaver and I'll put it to work.
02:55:12 <coppro> pikhq: uncomputably so?
02:55:20 <elliott> `addquote <pikhq> Give me a beaver and I'll put it to work.
02:55:24 <elliott> ITS FUNNY BECAUSE INNUENDO
02:55:39 <HackEgo> 258|<pikhq> Give me a beaver and I'll put it to work.
02:58:03 <pikhq> coppro: Well, I certainly don't know how much wood a woodchuck would chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood.
02:58:30 <coppro> pikhq: more than wood^chuck?
02:58:31 <pikhq> coppro: And I extrapolate this same lack of knowledge to beavers.
02:59:15 <elliott> pikhq: OK, standalone = not implemented at all :P
02:59:55 <Sgeo> coppro, how have I not submitted productive proposals?
03:00:10 <coppro> Sgeo: they were concerned about some random invasion fears
03:00:23 <Sgeo> coppro, only three of them!
03:00:35 <elliott> pikhq: Boot loader: http://busybox.net/~vda/mboot/README.txt :P
03:00:49 <elliott> coppro: i never knew Sgeo was so funny when he was offended
03:00:57 <elliott> tempted to transfer a prop to coppro
03:02:21 <Sgeo> /too obscure for #esoteric
03:03:30 <Sgeo> You know how in Pharo, items on the menus have the letter that you alt-press to do something?
03:04:30 <Sgeo> I wouldn't imagine that all Smalltalk systems have the same UI conventions
03:04:40 <Sgeo> I'd imagine Pharo and Squeak being similar, ofc
03:05:10 <elliott> Sgeo: Squeak has heritage directly from Smalltalk-80.
03:05:20 <elliott> Its UI is -- minus the kiddy colours and the like -- Smalltalk's canonical UI.
03:05:38 <elliott> Sgeo: (Squeak is, literally, Smalltalk-80, thirty years on. Same codebase.)
03:08:35 <elliott> i should totally name kitten releases after kitty emoticons
03:09:06 <elliott> except, rolling release :(
03:10:48 -!- TLUL has changed nick to TLUL|afk.
03:12:10 <elliott> pikhq: Dynamically-linked BusyBox with EVERYTHING except SELinux turned on:
03:12:10 <elliott> -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 1.5M Nov 11 03:11 busybox
03:12:26 <elliott> pikhq: Compare to size of gnu equivalents, weep.
03:12:41 <elliott> (dpkg and rpm in one binary -- is this legal? Moral?)
03:13:08 <elliott> pikhq: Look at my god damn commands: http://sprunge.us/XcBf
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03:13:18 <Sgeo> My opinion would be awesome
03:13:25 <Sgeo> But then again, I have atrocious taste
03:14:31 <Sgeo> dpkg and rpm in one... Oh!
03:14:38 <Sgeo> You meant as in busybox
03:14:39 <pikhq> elliott: You turned on *everything* and got a 1.5M busybox.
03:14:54 <Sgeo> I thought you meant you were making a file that was both .deb and .rpm
03:14:55 <pikhq> Moral of the story, Busybox is amazing.
03:15:02 <elliott> pikhq: Technically, I disabled SELinux. Also, I had to manually link it dynamically, since it tried to do it statically and libpam wanted dlopen and friends.
03:15:07 <Sgeo> I was wondering "How is it possible, but if it's possible, it's awesome!"
03:15:21 <pikhq> And a Linux distro in and of itself.
03:15:29 <elliott> pikhq: If you linked that statically to even uClibc, that thing would be a few megabytes more, I'd bet.
03:15:34 <elliott> Then again, libc.a isn't very big, even with uClibc.
03:16:04 <elliott> pikhq: Also, indeed. All you need is a filesystem with /linux, /busybox and a link /sh to /busybox.
03:16:16 <elliott> pikhq: You could even link /init to /busybox instead if you wanted something BLOATED like that.
03:16:21 <elliott> pikhq: (But you'd need more files, I think.)
03:16:44 <elliott> pikhq: Note that a few of the options in busybox may be to *disable* some stuff :P
03:17:00 <pikhq> elliott: Add a cc and a make and you have a build chain.
03:17:02 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, I think that allyesconfig would enable the "tools look for busybox before execing", meaning that /sh would actually work with all the tools, you wouldn't have to type "./busybox".
03:17:09 <elliott> pikhq: Although... it looks at /proc to find itself.
03:18:18 <pikhq> You could IRC with that sucker.
03:20:35 <elliott> pikhq: Although it's an evil, smelly, evil non-Hobbit nc.
03:20:47 <elliott> pikhq: In 2040 I will still be using Hobbit netcat.
03:23:08 <zzo38> I do think netcat is a very good program to include in any system that has internet access, as well as ping and network configuration display. These are the minimum, although an FTP client and a very simple email client should be included too.
03:23:42 <elliott> pikhq: Hey. I should see what toolchain Mastodon uses.
03:24:22 <zzo38> (You can easily use netcat, together with I/O redirection/pipe to download a file from Gopher protocol as well as headerless HTTP.)
03:28:43 <elliott> zzo38: ...headerless HTTP? You mean just the query line?
03:31:00 <zzo38> elliott: Yes I mean just the query line. Headerless HTTP is accessed by omitting the version from the request.
03:31:37 <elliott> zzo38: That doesn't work for e.g. google at the very least./
03:32:36 <zzo38> For Google it still produces a header on output. For my server (Apache) it produces no header on output if that is done.
03:34:02 <zzo38> And I have seen some servers that wait for a header anyways.
03:34:05 <elliott> zzo38: for google it just returns a redirect loop
03:34:39 <zzo38> But this is all wrong; if no version number is given, it should wait for no header and output no header. At least, this is my opinion of what it should do.
03:35:20 <zzo38> (Now; it isn't quite as important for Google; the Google homepage is useless to download outside of a web-browser anyways)
03:35:26 * Sgeo remembers cleaning up Wikipedia vandalism that claimed.. something
03:36:14 <Sgeo> Oh, right, Wikipedia's sucking today
03:39:03 <zzo38> But if you have software packages on there, you ought to support headerless HTTP. (Another alternative is to set up a Gopher server, that is an even simpler protocol than headerless HTTP)
03:39:06 <Sgeo> Dear browser, stop fucking up
03:40:30 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.orrg/w/index.php?title=List_of_HTTP_status_codes&oldid=200015439
03:42:39 <zzo38> Why did you write "orrg" instead of "org"?
03:43:09 <Sgeo> Because I typoed
03:43:20 <Sgeo> I was using my phone's browser instead of my laptop's browser
03:43:59 <Sgeo> My laptop was acting crappily
03:44:39 <elliott> pikhq: maybe i'll just use plan9port :)
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03:59:03 <pikhq> zzo38: Mmm, HTTP 0.9.
04:01:29 <elliott> pikhq: Now add virtual hosts.
04:03:10 <Sgeo> Isn't that a 1.1 thing? So surely, it wouldn;t work with 1.0 either
04:03:35 <elliott> it's also nearly mandatory
04:05:32 * Sgeo remembers wondering as a kid why is it that putting the IP address as the host of the URL wasn't the same as putting the domain name in some circumstances
04:07:13 <elliott> pikhq: there is a multibyte patch for st but it uses wchat :-P
04:09:27 <pikhq> elliott: Screw virtual hosts.
04:09:32 <pikhq> elliott: IPv6 and virtual machines.
04:10:05 <elliott> pikhq: i don't even have an ipv6 link :)
04:22:29 <Sgeo> elliott, is Ruby strongly or weakly typed? I'm arguing strongly
04:22:59 <elliott> Sgeo: Strongly with a handful of unimportant type coercions.
04:23:26 <elliott> coppro: of course there are so many different aspects
04:23:29 <elliott> strong vs. weak, dynamics vs. static
04:23:35 <elliott> ruby is dynamically strongly typed
04:23:46 <elliott> coppro: if Ruby was weakly typed
04:24:35 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Strongly typed is orthogonal from statically typed
04:24:35 <Sgeo> <xternal> that's a bit of a religious debate ;)
04:24:53 <coppro> elliott: not necessarily
04:24:55 <Sgeo> (He was arguing that duck typing meant that Ruby is weakly typed)
04:25:09 <coppro> strong is definitely orghogonal from static
04:25:15 <elliott> why do you argue with people like that Sgeo :)
04:25:25 <elliott> coppro: i should write down my definitions sometime, i don't even remember them myself
04:25:32 <Sgeo> Until right about then, he had my respect when it comes to programming
04:28:00 <elliott> (1) he's an idiot but (2) your respect is too easily gained and too easily broken
04:28:29 <pikhq> Sgeo: ^ This. So much.
04:29:36 <elliott> sometimes in acme i move the columns around just to laugh at how nice it is
04:30:14 <pikhq> Yes, but not for that.
04:30:37 <elliott> pikhq: i love pointer warping. am i crazy?
04:31:38 <elliott> pikhq: Software moving the pointer to a location of its choosing without user action.
04:32:02 <elliott> pikhq: For instance, if you move a column in acme, acme warps the pointer to the layout square. On the other hand, you just grabbed and dragged the layout square, so this isn't disorienting.
04:32:22 <Sgeo> Is 2^sizeof(void*) the maximum amount of heap in bytes a C program can use?
04:32:33 <Sgeo> Wait no that makes no sense
04:32:36 <pikhq> That is either a violation of law of least surprise or absolutely amazing.
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04:32:46 <elliott> Sgeo: 2^(8*sizeof(void *))
04:32:54 <elliott> Sgeo: although, I think T * can be differently-sized to void *, technically
04:33:10 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, it has been... abused in the past. (Old X programs used to warp programs to newly created dialogues.)
04:33:18 <pikhq> Sgeo: Also, the above is the maximum amount of memory space in units of char that a C program can use.
04:33:24 <Sgeo> What is sizeof(void*)?... Oh, for some reason, I had it in my mind as 1
04:33:25 <elliott> Sgeo: That actually includes the maximum stack, too.
04:33:30 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, but they must all be castable to void*.
04:33:35 <Sgeo> It's something like 4, isn't it?
04:33:35 <elliott> int x; /* &x is an (int *) */
04:34:03 <elliott> Sgeo: if sizeof(x) = y, then char foo[y] can store exactly one x. basically.
04:34:11 <pikhq> Sgeo: The only restriction is that it's a multiple of char.
04:34:14 <elliott> sizeof(void *) = 8 on 64-bit architectures because 64 bits = 8 bytes
04:34:26 <pikhq> Sorry, a finite natural multiple of char.
04:34:35 <elliott> pikhq: that can fit into a size_t
04:35:04 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, the only restriction is that it's a multiple of char that can fit into a size_t.
04:35:30 <pikhq> And a size_t must have a finite maximum and be integral.
04:35:55 <pikhq> I'm not sure they actually *forbid* signed size_t.
04:36:06 <pikhq> Okay, then natural.
04:36:14 <elliott> pikhq: That is why the signed ssize_t exists on some systems.
04:36:25 <elliott> pikhq: "The value of the result is implementation-defined, and its type (an unsigned integer type)
04:36:26 <elliott> is size_t, defined in <stddef.h> (and other headers)." --C99
04:36:40 <Sgeo> "That is why the signed ssize_t exists on some systems."
04:37:18 <elliott> pikhq: Say... I think standard C without variable arguments might be TC.
04:37:24 <elliott> pikhq: Well, wait, no. With variable arguments.
04:37:37 <elliott> pikhq: Does anything say that stack frames must be addressable?
04:37:48 <elliott> pikhq: Store values by *recursing*.
04:37:51 <pikhq> elliott: All the values on the stack must be addressable.
04:37:57 <elliott> pikhq: To get the value on the top of the stack, return NEXT_FUNC;
04:38:06 <elliott> pikhq: The function underneath will then call NEXT_FUNC(0) or NEXT_FUNC(1).
04:38:17 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but if you don't use any variables in these functions...
04:38:20 <zzo38> It was also my idea before perhaps C can be Turing-complete if you are not allowed to convert pointers to numbers.
04:38:32 <elliott> pikhq: Then I think it would obey C to have no part of these stack frames be addressable.
04:38:37 <pikhq> ... I don't know if return addresses have to be addressable in straight-up ISO C.
04:38:56 <pikhq> (though it is necessary in POSIX)
04:39:22 <elliott> pikhq: POSIX is TC I think because of the filesystem functions.
04:39:33 <elliott> pikhq: Although, wait, no, char * has necessarily limited range.
04:39:47 <pikhq> elliott: POSIX has bounded file sizes.
04:40:05 <Sgeo> I think I just made a fool of myself
04:40:06 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> C isn't turing-complet
04:40:06 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> complete
04:40:09 <pikhq> elliott: And bounded file names.
04:40:11 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> [stuff]
04:40:15 <pikhq> elliott: And bounded directory tree depth.
04:40:18 <Sgeo> <fando> so? you can push things out of memory and load new things
04:40:18 <Sgeo> <fando> that's your infinite tape
04:40:36 <pikhq> elliott: ... Waait. Chroot.
04:40:41 <pikhq> It's TC because of chroot.
04:40:44 <elliott> Sgeo: Copy this line to him:
04:41:11 <elliott> Sgeo: Yes, but fopen() and friends take a (char *) which necessarily has limited range, thus providing finite page-out space.
04:41:11 <pikhq> You can chroot infinitely.
04:41:24 <elliott> Sgeo: also, where the hell is this?
04:43:15 <zzo38> elliott: But it was my idea you can make a C variant which is Turing-complete by making it that pointers and numbers are not interchangeable with each other. If you do this, it should be possible to have infinite memory? Another way is to use standard C but add two CPU instructions, next bank and previous bank.
04:43:41 <pikhq> zzo38: This would, I presume, make it so that pointers can be unbounded.
04:43:59 <Sgeo> How do you physically do unbounded pointers?
04:44:11 <pikhq> Sgeo: With a Turing machine.
04:44:42 <zzo38> Sgeo: Of course Turing-complete computers are actually impossible, but you can make a programming language specifications which makes a programming language with is Turing-complete.
04:45:00 <elliott> pikhq: I am now attempting to write some C code to simulate some sort of infinite memory with the call stack.
04:45:03 <Sgeo> I meant, the layout of the pointer in memory
04:45:27 <Sgeo> It's a bignum obvi.. well, I just answered my question
04:45:34 <Sgeo> And I don't know how bignums work >.>
04:46:21 <elliott> Sgeo: Consider a list of base 10 digits, that you don't know how long it is. Let's say that "10" means "there are at least two more values".
04:46:32 <elliott> Sgeo: Let's start by assuming there's one value.
04:46:42 <elliott> Sgeo: Now obviously 0-9 are base 9 values now.
04:46:52 <elliott> Sgeo: So 10 1 2 = whatever "12" is in base 9.
04:46:58 <elliott> Sgeo: 10 10 1 2 3 = "123" in base 9.
04:47:03 <elliott> Sgeo: 10 1 10 2 3 = the same.
04:47:07 <elliott> Sgeo: Bignums are like this except way, way smarter.
04:49:14 <elliott> pikhq: Gah, just realised that you basically need arguments to do it.
04:49:31 <elliott> pikhq: Feel free to write an infinite tape/stack/whatever with argumentless, variableless recursing functions :P
04:49:36 <elliott> pikhq: Globals are okay of course.
04:53:01 <zzo38> I read the log file it says GraphicsMagick can use MIFF files. If it can, then GF-Magick should be able to work with GraphicsMagick. There are four ways to do so: [1] Modify "gfmagick.w" to support GraphicsMagick. [2] Make a ".ch" file for supporting GraphicsMagick.
04:53:36 <zzo38> [3] Add 'special "convert"' immediately after 'def init_settings =' in the "gfmagick.mf" file. [4] Write a weapper script that calls GraphicsMagick.
04:59:07 <zzo38> Which if these four ways do you prefer?
05:00:09 <elliott> pikhq: It's irritating that my main problems with getting the Kitten toolchain to work are all because of GNU lock-in.
05:01:11 <elliott> comex: you're either (1) being sarcastic (2) about to be be repeatedly beaten over the head by me
05:01:26 <comex> well, some of the GNU lock-in features are pretty nice features :p
05:01:28 <comex> like linker scripts
05:01:46 * Sgeo wonders if he can make an argument that Haskell isn't strongly typed
05:01:47 <comex> you don't get anything close to the power of those on OS X
05:01:47 <elliott> comex: in this case, the lock-in features are gcc being a bitch with uclibc
05:01:57 <elliott> comex: OH YEAH I'M TOTALLY SUGGESTING OS X AS A REPLACEMENT
05:02:50 <elliott> comex: note: i am not suggesting os x as a replacement
05:02:54 <Sgeo> Haskell is statically-typed. However, data carries no type information with it. Without the static check, data could be misinterpreted as the wrong type
05:03:29 <zzo38> What problems are you having with gcc and uclibc?
05:03:35 <elliott> comex: anyway i don't care about gnucrap as long as programs don't *purport* to be portable and then not work on anything that isn't gnu'd up. but i *do* hate how, starting from an existing, gnuified toolchain, it is very difficult to get anything else due to rampant incompatibility
05:03:38 <comex> clang? that's basically OS X
05:03:48 <elliott> os != toolchain != compiler
05:04:00 <elliott> "clang is sooo much better than windows, it runs all my games"
05:04:05 * comex is only wondering what you prefer to GNU lock-in
05:04:27 <elliott> comex: well in this case it's irrelevant, i'm not objecting to gnu features, i'm objecting to the difficulty in using gcc to bootstrap a non-gnu toolchain
05:04:53 <elliott> zzo38: uClibc-linked executables segfault. works with the gcc that buildroot builds, not sure why at all.
05:07:29 * elliott emails DKS asking about Symbolics shipping
05:08:03 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving).
05:08:48 * Sgeo wants an imperative language with a Haskell-like type system
05:09:34 * Sgeo should relearn Scala
05:09:50 <elliott> Sgeo: that language is Haskell
05:10:15 <elliott> you put do before every function, and in "if" clauses. also, if you do an IO operation that gives a result, you must assign it to a variable before using it in other expressions
05:10:45 <elliott> Vorpal: do you still have that OpenGenera on Linux tutorial?
05:11:01 <zzo38> Is it possible to make a implementation of C standard library that uses assembly language codes and only compiles in the functions that are used by your program?
05:11:37 * Sgeo should sleep soon
05:11:55 <elliott> zzo38: The latter is easily accomplishable, and is done by most C libraries designed for static linking. You simply compile each function (or small group of functions) into its own .o object file, and then pack them all into a resulting .a.
05:12:08 <elliott> zzo38: C libraries not designed for this will often have very big .o files, and thus programs will pull in symbols they do not need.
05:12:16 <elliott> zzo38: The former would be possible but pointless.
05:13:59 <zzo38> I think it is sensible to make at least some of the C library functions written in assembly language. You can have them written in C as well, for using on other computers. And some functions might be written only in C, although someone can write them in assembly language too later on if they want to.
05:17:18 <zzo38> Some of the simple C library functions can be written using whatever instructions are available on the processor, if needed you can also write them separately depending on the optimization setting of the program you are compiling.
05:18:06 <zzo38> Some group of functions might go together so you would then write them in the same module with the entry points inside of each other if necessary.
05:18:18 <elliott> zzo38: But why not write the libc in C?
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05:19:40 <comex> because C is slow ;)
05:19:47 <zzo38> elliott: I am not saying don't write it in C, I am just saying that you can also write some of them in assembly language for specific computers, too.
05:19:50 <comex> also, I don't know what you guys are talking about
05:19:55 <comex> of course any sane standard library will have assembly functions
05:19:58 <comex> especially for things like memcpy
05:20:19 <zzo38> You can also write all of the function in C for use with computers that the library has not been ported to yet.
05:21:36 <elliott> ;; Leave these last in case server is down!
05:21:36 <elliott> "my birthday" "the day before my birthday"
05:21:36 <elliott> "1 hour before dlw's birthday"
05:21:41 <elliott> --PARSE-UNIVERSAL-TIME, OpenGenera
05:21:47 <zzo38> Will any C compilers compile strings into the executable file such that the following expression is true: ("abcdef"+2=="cdef")
05:22:21 <comex> because you need the null terminator
05:23:16 <elliott> zzo38: hypothetically yes.
05:23:41 <comex> I'm surprised that gcc doesn't
05:24:21 <elliott> pikhq: symbolics is so dormant:
05:24:23 <elliott> [[To be fair to DKS, he is not the owner of Symbolics' property. He is pretty much an independent contractor who is handling folks who need refurbished hardware and hardware maintenance on existing systems.
05:24:23 <elliott> He is not in a position to make decisions regarding Symbolics' intellectual property.
05:24:23 <elliott> The person who could make such decisions, AFAIK, is Andrew Topping who passed away, leaving Symbolics assets tied up in probate.]]
05:24:37 <elliott> let's hope dks will respond to my shipping question :)
05:24:55 <zzo38> Compiling constant strings this way would make the executable file smaller and take up less memory but it should not affect the speed of the running program.
05:25:11 <comex> on the other hand, it's unlikely to crop up very often in real programs
05:25:18 <elliott> I may offer telnet/ssh access to the box if I can get that working (perhaps for a small fee, since it's a single-user architecture and I don't think there's any security -- i doubt someone i know would give me money to trash the box :))
05:25:35 <elliott> hell, X forwarding, let's just go KER-AAAAAAAZY
05:25:44 <elliott> remote X access to something not based on X, it can only go well
05:27:38 <elliott> Voting begins: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 05:53:03 -0700
05:27:38 <elliott> Voting ends : Sat, 5 Jul 2008 05:53:03 -0700
05:27:38 <elliott> x5577 O1 1.0 omd I don't deserve Scamster!
05:27:41 <elliott> comex: were you omd in 2008?
05:29:09 <elliott> "As I recall, the skeleton of Symbolics makes a living through maintenance contracts for ancient government-owned systems."
05:29:27 <comex> also, Hillary Rodham Clinton
05:30:13 <comex> at least Murphy had the grace not to change the caller of http://zenith.homelinux.net/cotc/viewcase.php?cfj=2180 to me
05:32:21 <elliott> comex: your MOM is hillary rodham clinton.
05:35:35 <elliott> http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/color.html symbolics symbolics symbolics symbolics
05:46:01 <elliott> comex: symb motherfucking olics
05:51:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover encouraged oerjan to commit suicide.
05:52:01 <elliott> (Note: Former statement is 99.9999999999999999% bullshit, 0.zeroes1% gross misrepresentation.)
05:55:01 -!- sftp has joined.
06:02:35 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:28:54 <elliott> "Key Laboratory of Modern Chinese Medicines
06:28:54 <elliott> Department of Traditional Chinese Medicine
06:28:54 <elliott> China Pharmaceutical University"
06:41:48 <pikhq> comex: zzo38: Regarding "abcdef"+2=="cdef". That will not be true for any complying C compiler.
06:42:40 <pikhq> At least, I don't think so.
06:42:52 <coppro> I think constant folding is allowed
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06:44:18 <coppro> "cde" == "cde" is certainly unspecified
06:44:33 <elliott> pikhq: it's easy to imagine a C compiler caching strings
06:44:41 <elliott> pikhq: so when it sees "cdef", it looks for that in its current Big Heap O' String
06:44:57 <elliott> finds it (coincidentally, two bytes past where we decided "abcdef" was when we stored it)
06:45:05 <coppro> pikhq: I would veer on the side of suffix reuse is ok
06:45:26 <elliott> bleh, i'm not sure I trust myself to halve the contents of capsules reliably
06:45:43 <elliott> (the only capsules of melatonin this site cells are 3mg and i want to take 1.5mg (I can't swallow pills))
06:45:49 <coppro> elliott: the tricky compiler can merge "a\0b\0c", "a", "b", and "c"
06:46:21 <elliott> apparently one of those has one drop = 1/4 mg, so if i took 6 drops that'd be the dosage i want
06:46:35 <elliott> coppro: but why would you want to? :)
06:47:12 <zzo38> I know it is not required that ("cde"=="cde") or that ("abcde"+2=="cde") but nothing should go wrong if it compiles that it is true
06:48:29 <elliott> zzo38: the c standard is twisty in more ways than you or i can imagine
06:48:37 <elliott> (and in more ways than the committee could!)
06:48:59 <zzo38> And like coppro mentioned, a compiler could possibly even allow ("a\0b\0c"=="a")
06:50:44 <elliott> coppro: in fact... I think you could even have "a"=="b"
06:51:02 <elliott> coppro: consider, the compiler changes some memory-read-semantics register before dereferencing the pointer
06:51:10 <elliott> coppro: although i suppose that should be part of the C pointer...
06:51:53 <elliott> has anyone (apart from Sgeo) taken melatonin here?
06:55:42 <coppro> elliott: hmm... I suppose that could happen
06:56:02 <elliott> coppro: yeah, but I bet you'd trip over other C semantics by not including the register in the pointer
06:56:13 <elliott> coppro: still, if not... HA HA fuck you everyone who thinks that a==b implies !strcmp(a,b)!
06:56:22 <elliott> now to implement this perverse CPU and compiler
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07:16:29 <elliott> "YES THAT IS RIGHT, WE ARE RELEASING GEOCITIES ON A TORRENT." --http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/2720
07:16:56 <elliott> http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5923737/Geocities_-_The_Torrent
07:17:03 <elliott> pikhq: You got 688614781452 bytes free?
07:17:11 <elliott> pikhq: Dedicate those 6 and a half gigs to GEOCITIES.
07:19:14 <elliott> pikhq: Technically 909 gigs uncompressed.
07:19:55 <elliott> damn damn damn i want to make a cluster grep this
07:20:08 <elliott> if we could do that in 1996 google would have never been created
07:24:50 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this logo? http://sprunge.us/VPHV
07:26:26 <elliott> I would totally comment except I don't have a single piece of the software needed to display it.
07:29:22 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/black_associates_logo.png
07:29:57 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_government_shutdown_of_1995
07:30:08 <pikhq> God fucking dammit I hate the Republican party more with each passing day.
07:30:30 <pikhq> It's like they're not even *trying* to do anything but evil pricks.
07:30:47 <pikhq> Though they may also be doing evil pricks, what with the homophobia and all.
07:30:50 <zzo38> elliott: Now can you see the picture?
07:31:05 <elliott> zzo38: Indeed. It's, uh, a very good logo.
07:32:00 <pikhq> Why the hell do my choices keep being between ineffectual and maniacal. Just why.
07:32:31 <zzo38> I had previously made that logo in SVG, but you couldn't see through the holes. This new program is better.
07:33:48 <zzo38> It is better for other reasons too, not just that, though.
07:34:11 <pikhq> elliott: It's likely the GOP will play the same freaking game again this coming session of Congress.
07:34:30 <pikhq> elliott: Only with the debt ceiling instead of the budget.
07:34:31 <elliott> pikhq: Enjoy your meltdown.
07:34:53 <pikhq> elliott: Enjoy the US defaulting on its debt thereby melting down the world economy.
07:35:55 <zzo38> If you want to suggest changes to this logo you can, it is not quite official yet, it is just a draft so far. But the trademark for it still belongs to Black Associates.
07:35:59 <elliott> pikhq: i forget how many predicted meltdowns i've lived through so far, i'm still here :)
07:36:05 <elliott> zzo38: Did you register it as a trademark?
07:36:09 <elliott> zzo38: If not, it's not a trademark.
07:37:12 <zzo38> I think there is both registered and unregistered trademarks, with different rules. (The circled R is for register trademark and TM is unregistered trademarks, I think I read it somewhere)
07:37:22 <pikhq> elliott: I... don't think you realise the consequences of the US defaulting on its debt.
07:37:37 <elliott> pikhq: i predict an event will occur that is not the US defaulting on its debt
07:37:54 <pikhq> elliott: That is dependent on the GOP being sane.
07:38:10 <elliott> pikhq: even the republicans are smart enough to realise that completely, utterly and instantly destroying the US would be bad for their corporatist goals
07:38:25 <pikhq> They think Palin is a nifty candidate.
07:38:29 <elliott> pikhq: and the dems are ~compromising~ enough already, they'll have no problem agreeing to GOP stupidity to keep the US from meltdown.
07:38:48 <pikhq> Okay, true, the Democrats are still spineless bastards.
07:38:49 <elliott> pikhq: you do realise that the actual GOP is not so much *stupid* as *misguided* and selfish?
07:38:55 <elliott> the supporters, sure, stupid. (most dems too)
07:38:56 <zzo38> But I don't know any trademark lawyers though
07:39:54 <pikhq> elliott: It still worries me that a bunch of selfish, sociopathic pricks have the power to cause every currency to look like the Zimbabwe dollar.
07:40:25 <elliott> pikhq: i think you underestimate the power of the EU to sustain itself temporarily
07:40:45 <elliott> pikhq: the euro is backed by many strong countries (ok, some weak ones too) and it'd be very hard to destroy it overnight.
07:41:45 <elliott> pikhq: meanwhile, take a look at the bullshit Facebook does to stop people deactivating their account: http://collison.ie/pics/60b1637dffc83eeb2597be5afe89fe5c.png
07:41:57 <pikhq> elliott: It's partially backed by the US debt.
07:42:03 <elliott> pikhq: "But if you deactivate all these people will be sad? LOOK - here's PICTURES of them! Now you MUST tell us WHY we're deactivating, or we won't let you deactivate."
07:42:23 <pikhq> Hmm. Actually, China would be most fucked outside of the US.
07:42:38 <pikhq> What with having almost a trillion dollars of the US debt backing their currency.
07:42:40 <elliott> pikhq: I don't think the US will default on its debt soon.
07:42:49 <pikhq> ... And being pegged to the dollar.
07:43:19 <pikhq> elliott: All it takes is one Senator.
07:43:59 <pikhq> One completely and utterly crazy Senator.
07:44:21 <elliott> pikhq: now you must of course realise that the consequences of the us defaulting on its debt provide absolutely *no* benefit to *any* US senator
07:44:44 <pikhq> That's why they'd have to be completely and utterly crazy, and not merely stupid.
07:44:51 <elliott> and that while most senators of untrustworthy corporatist douchebags, they're not literally-actually-psych-ward insane in the sense of random acts of arson.
07:45:14 <elliott> and the probability of one suddenly becoming one quick enough to do this is... ~0
07:45:24 <pikhq> Yeah, that's only their supporters.
07:46:00 <pikhq> If we actually got the tea party in charge of things, well. I'd find a nuclear bunker and wait out the next several centuries there.
07:46:15 <elliott> pikhq: the us will probably implode sometime, but i don't think they'll default on their debt :)
07:46:44 <pikhq> elliott: It's just one of the many ways that the US could go poof, and one of the more dramatic.
07:46:53 <elliott> pikhq: after all, what about every other senator and their beloved corporatocracy? i doubt they'd let a single senator jeopardise that
07:47:14 <elliott> pikhq: fake offers of insane amounts of money, threats, coercion of various forms, making sure they're not able to vote... you name it
07:47:22 <elliott> i wouldn't put it past 99% of 'em
07:47:44 <pikhq> More likely ways involve all the corporations just taking their ball and going to $country...
07:48:45 <pikhq> Ooor Americans just growing up.
07:48:49 <pikhq> (hah, like that'll happen.)
07:49:11 <elliott> pikhq: give it some years. i doubt the us can continue to exist in its current state for the rest of your natural life.
07:49:27 <elliott> pikhq: you might want to consider moving elsewhere before the meltdown :)
07:50:10 <elliott> pikhq: So should I buy a Symbolics Lisp Machine?
07:50:19 <pikhq> In its current state? Definitely not. Something has to give.
07:50:25 <elliott> pikhq: (An actual one, not one of those Lisp Machines on a card plugged into a 68k Mac, or an Alpha machine running OpenGenera.)
07:50:49 <pikhq> It's certainly not in a *stable* state right now.
07:51:29 <elliott> pikhq: They are actually remarkably cheap. The cheapest Lisp Machine is $675 including the CRT, keyboard and everything.
07:51:33 <elliott> pikhq: (Yes, *the* Symbolics keyboard.)
07:53:07 <elliott> pikhq: Of course the postage to the UK will be hideously expensive (it weighs 70 pounds, and that's just the computer). So while I'm at it, might as well add some upgrades: $150 would double my disk space to 1.5 gigs, $200 would max out the memory to 8 megawords ($50/megaword), and the 19" premium monitor is $300. (Premium in this case probably means "even vaguely reliable"; 80s CRTs are... fun things.
07:53:07 <elliott> The stock monitor is 17". Both are monochrome.)
07:53:20 <elliott> pikhq: I have emailed DKS asking about shipping to the UK.
07:53:44 <elliott> [[We provide a 90 day Return-To-Factory warranty on all equipment we sell.
07:53:44 <elliott> You are responsible for all shipping costs and there is a $50 crating fee
07:53:44 <elliott> for the XL1200 and 36xx machines, unless you pick up the machine from our
07:53:44 <elliott> location in Burke, VA. Payment is required in advance. We can accept
07:53:44 <elliott> credit card payments through the Payment Pal system with a 3% surcharge (4%
07:53:50 <elliott> pikhq: Sweet, so postage is $50 + postage :P
07:53:55 <elliott> pikhq: (lol @ "Payment Pal")
07:55:09 <elliott> Now will Vorpal wake up so he can link me to that guide?
07:55:12 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: do you still have that OpenGenera on Linux tutorial? <-- uh, maybe. On a different computer then, which I don't have time to mess with before leaving for university. grep the logs for url if you want it before late this evening
07:55:29 <elliott> Vorpal: wasn't it in /msg?
07:55:46 <Vorpal> elliott, it was probably a sprunge link
07:55:55 <elliott> it was on sporksirc i thin
07:56:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt it. I could ssh in there and check now though
07:56:22 <elliott> Vorpal: that would be great :)
07:56:43 <Vorpal> the only place it would have been does not contain it
07:56:48 <elliott> <Vorpal> hm I'd love to just be able to pull up an inspector on anything, just like in genera, or squeak. Genera more so iirc.
07:56:54 <elliott> Vorpal: ElliottOS does that!
07:57:07 <elliott> $ egrep -r 'Vorpal>.*(open)?genera\b' 10*
07:57:11 <elliott> returns a lot fewer results than i'd expect
07:57:24 <Vorpal> elliott, try adding -i too
07:57:40 <elliott> Vorpal: -i is much slower and returns the same results
07:57:44 <elliott> this is why I used [Oo] [Gg] :P
07:57:46 <Vorpal> elliott, wrt your OS: sure. But well I'd also love if it was available today...
07:58:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt I used openGeNERA
07:58:05 <elliott> yeah, yeah, you can't perfectionify in a day :)
07:58:21 <elliott> Vorpal: oh you may have been Vorpal_
07:58:40 <elliott> $ egrep -r '(Vorpal|AnMaster).*>.*([Oo]pen)?[Gg]enera\b' 10*
07:58:46 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I agree wrt perfectionify. But then it isn't a viable option *today* as such.
07:59:02 <elliott> Vorpal: bleh, didn't you make the guide as vorpal?
07:59:10 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no idea
07:59:20 <elliott> did you ever try opengenera over some X forwarding?
07:59:29 <Vorpal> anyway, must prepare lunch box. bbl
07:59:49 <elliott> 10.07.30:08:26:36 <AnMaster> alise, did you get opengenera to work nicely? I wrote up a somewhat more up-to-date guide for it. Also includes how to install the symbolics X fonts (otherwise small text like in Show Keyboard Layout output is unreadable).
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08:01:18 <elliott> Vorpal: if you get back, i sure hope debian works instead of ubuntu
08:02:16 <elliott> now what xorg did 7.10 use...
08:06:42 <elliott> Vorpal: don't suppose you can seed opengenera again? i lost the file :p
08:08:59 <elliott> [ ]opengenera2.tar.bz219-Nov-2008 23:01 197M
08:09:08 <elliott> fuck yeah http :P but actually my download just sped up so never mind
08:09:29 <Vorpal> elliott, um. Not on this computer
08:09:42 <elliott> yeah it's ok it sped up :P
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08:16:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I just realised that light pollution is a major issue in minecraft XD
08:17:09 <Vorpal> elliott, all that lit outdoors. Not directed only downwards but omnidirectional light sources...
08:17:48 <elliott> it's the SUN! it can't be light pollution!
08:18:00 <Vorpal> elliott, well what about the torches?!
08:18:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean the roof is lit to prevent stuff spawning on top at night when I switch away from peaceful
08:18:59 <elliott> oh, so that's how you stop the FUCKING HISSING.
08:19:12 <elliott> in future my shelters are under-fucking-ground.
08:19:45 <Vorpal> elliott, just don't use earth for the roof. lit earth (maybe only with grass, not sure) will spawn cows, pigs, chickens and so on
08:20:10 <Vorpal> well, the sound of them is annoying
08:21:23 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, just build the roof high enough so stuff can't jump up and make sure it is lit so stuff can't spawn on top
08:21:59 <Vorpal> elliott, monsters during the day too in other words
08:22:13 * Vorpal watches elliott's reaction
08:23:15 <elliott> Vorpal: do you recall what x version 7.10 used
08:24:24 <Vorpal> elliott, no and I can't check without missing the bus :P
08:26:27 <Vorpal> elliott, must be 64-bit
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08:26:39 <elliott> Vorpal: oh shit i'll have to use qemu
08:26:43 <elliott> Vorpal: well it'll be faster than a 3620!
08:27:12 <elliott> Vorpal: is the setup workable without sudo or should i just install sudo to avoid pain
08:27:34 <elliott> hope that virtualbox bug doesn't apply to qemu too
08:27:57 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, I needed to run the stuff as root. Presumably you don't have to if you figure out a way to let a normal user mess with tun interfaces
08:28:11 <elliott> Vorpal: i just mean, you say to make sure the user is sudoable
08:28:21 <elliott> doesn't the emulator run as root anyway?
08:28:30 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it was on ubuntu. su would have been more work there
08:28:37 <elliott> [[Extract the Open Genera tarball somewhere, you should have a directory og2 from it.
08:28:37 <elliott> It should contain a directory sys.sct, note down the path to it, we will use it
08:28:44 <elliott> WOO! i get to figure out how to move it from qemu to there
08:28:54 <elliott> -fda opengenera.tar.bz2, then dd if=/dev/fd0
08:29:03 <elliott> Vorpal: i have the opengenera2.tar.bz2 file locally
08:29:06 <elliott> Vorpal: i need to get it into qemu
08:29:07 <Vorpal> elliott, also what was the virtualbox bug? I don't remember
08:29:10 <elliott> possibly by pretending it's a floppy.
08:29:16 <elliott> If your NAT the network to the guest, like by default in VirtualBox, then
08:29:16 <elliott> make sure it does not use 10.* for the subnet. VirtualBox uses this by default.
08:29:17 <elliott> There is a bug in VirtualBox 3.2.6 that causes an issue here, see
08:29:17 <elliott> http://www.virtualbox.org/ticket/6176
08:29:17 <elliott> $ VBoxManage setextradata OpenGenera "VBoxInternal/Devices/e1000/0/LUN#0/Config/Network" "172.23.24/24"
08:29:19 <Vorpal> elliott, bloody large floppy
08:29:19 <elliott> Where OpenGenera is the name of the VM.
08:29:21 <elliott> Do this while the VM is powered off.
08:29:27 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah well, second hard drive them
08:29:47 <Vorpal> presumably last virtualbox doesn't either
08:30:25 <elliott> Vorpal: how much disk do i need roughly?
08:30:31 <Vorpal> elliott, using numa for opengenera, already a somewhat brittle setup, is tempting fate
08:30:42 <Vorpal> elliott, don't remember
08:30:43 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm not THAT crazy
08:30:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I probably used 10 GB, dynamically growing
08:31:12 <Vorpal> elliott, but opengenera takes a bit of space
08:31:21 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no idea how much debian takes :P
08:31:27 <elliott> Vorpal: debian base install is small :P
08:31:35 <Vorpal> elliott, well you need X too
08:32:12 <elliott> $ qemu -vga vmware -cdrom debian-40r8-amd64-netinst.iso genera.qcow2
08:32:26 <Vorpal> bbl (not leaving yet, but has to check that I have everything I need in my backpack)
08:34:20 <elliott> Vorpal: hmm, it's probably a bad idea to try and use a non-US locale, right?
08:34:21 * Vorpal secretly replaces qemu with a wrapper script calling bochs on elliott's computer
08:35:43 <elliott> Vorpal: no utf-8 support eh :P
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08:48:31 <elliott> ais523: if you want to stop me making a bad purchase that will leave me with an obsolete physical object that i really have no practical, real-world use for, now's the time
08:48:42 <elliott> also, the object takes up space, and by now i mean any time in the next few weeks
08:49:12 <Vorpal> elliott, a pitty there were no "lisptops" XD
08:49:43 <Vorpal> lisptop would be a lisp-laptop
08:50:03 <elliott> ais523: Also, estimates on how much it would cost to ship a large object over 70 pounds in weight from the US to the UK would be greatly appreciated and also help to dispel this ridiculous notion of me buying a Lisp Machine.
08:50:23 <elliott> (Specifically the machine weighs 70 pounds and the CRT weighs something extra. There is also the keyboard and stuff.)
08:51:06 <elliott> "back, i have a degree now"
08:57:14 <elliott> haha, swap partition for a vm
08:57:26 <elliott> wait that actually makes sense.
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09:20:02 <elliott> ah stanislav does indeed own a 3620
09:20:09 <elliott> http://www.loper-os.org/wp-content/bolix2.png
09:20:11 <elliott> http://www.loper-os.org/wp-content/bolix3.png
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09:39:08 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-level_store
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10:27:48 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iPlhcSZmvg&feature=player_embedded
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15:11:15 <ais523> hmm, Motorola sued Microsoft
15:11:32 <ais523> patent mutually assured destruction isn't just theory now, but actual practice
15:14:02 <ais523> I'm amazed that none of the people involved are lobbying to get software patents repealed
15:14:10 <ais523> surely it must be in the interest of at least one of them?
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15:47:00 <pikhq> ais523: The lawyers would have to tell management that.
15:47:06 <pikhq> Do you think they're giving up the gravy train?
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16:48:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Am I the only person who thinks MathML is an abomination?
16:48:45 <Phantom_Hoover> There already *is* a markup language for mathematical notation.
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16:50:58 <Phantom_Hoover> 19 lines for ax^2+bx+c, while in LaTeX it's more or less that string.
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17:32:48 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover: don't get me started. all tag-based languages are fucking abominations and need to die.
17:33:57 <cheater99> and besides, have you ever viewed source on a web page?
17:34:16 <cheater99> the text:markup ratio is like 1:10-1:20
17:35:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume Berners-Lee had a reason for it, but I'm not sure what it was...
17:48:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it wasn't designed with the modern web in mind
17:49:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it was designed with something like <html><head><title></title></head><body><h1>foo</h1> a few paragraphs of pure text here</body></html>
17:49:10 <Vorpal> in which case it seems somewhat saner
17:49:27 <Vorpal> the head stuff was probably just to future proof it
17:50:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if you mean that it grow out of it's original intentions: well... did you never use netscape 1 or 2?
17:50:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, more stuff got lumped onto a framework that wasn't designed to support it.
17:50:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and they reused an existing format. SGML
17:50:43 <Vorpal> SGML was designed for something else
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17:57:39 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MathML#Example_and_comparison_to_other_formats
17:59:24 <Phantom_Hoover> It gives 4 formats in which the quadratic formula takes a single line of markup and then gives the Presentation MathML code, which takes up most of my browser's vertical space, and the Content version, which requires me to scroll down halfway again just to read the whole thing.
18:00:00 <Phantom_Hoover> You could probably derive the entire formula from scratch in that space with a sane markup language.
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19:18:53 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> Huh. CLISP is a dependency for AUCTeX.
19:18:58 <elliott> Install SBCL and it won't install CLISP.
19:50:23 <zzo38> After I finish reading the book and make a few more plans, I can make a program implementing TeX (or rather, implementing something similar to TeX), I should call it YeX (where the "Y" is really supposed to be a Greek letter Upsilon). And I shall use Enhanced CWEB to write it. And using fixed-point numbers for glue set values instead of floating-point
19:50:32 <zzo38> What is your opinion?
19:52:32 <zzo38> I have no intention it should pass the TRIP test (I could make it check if the input is the TRIP test and if so, make the output of the TRIP test, but that would be cheating!) but it will pass another test called TRIP'' test (which I have written and tested on MiKTeX already)
20:04:05 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, well, if it doesn't use FP senselessly I approve of it.
20:06:55 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: What do you mean by "use FP senselessly"?
20:07:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Where you a) don't need very fast calculations and b) need exact precision in your calculations.
20:08:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. most of the time you're doing calculations with subdivided integers.
20:10:10 <zzo38> I intend that identical output cna be produced on different computers. (With TeX, the glue set values are floating point but dimensions are in fixed point.)
20:13:26 <zzo38> s/ cna be / can be /
20:16:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Nor should I have mentioned that O(log_32 n) is the same as O(ln n).
20:19:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Because log_32 n = ln n/ln 32, and O(kf(x)) is the same as O(f(x)).
20:21:50 <Phantom_Hoover> <Chousuke> Phantom_Hoover: but O(ln n) is misleading since it's much faster :P
20:22:48 <Phantom_Hoover> He eventually remembered that big O notation is a measure of algorithmic complexity, not time taken, although not nearly as intelligently as that.
20:25:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone else in the channel didn't know what logs were, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
20:26:39 <Phantom_Hoover> More highlights: <amalloy> Phantom_Hoover: in a mathematical perfect world, O(log32 n) would be "the same" as O(log2 n)
20:26:56 <Phantom_Hoover> The fact that this "mathematical perfect world" is the real one escaped him.
20:27:23 <Phantom_Hoover> He then said something I still haven't grasped about O(1) and O(ln n).
20:27:33 <Phantom_Hoover> <Chousuke> it is the same, but not when you execute the algorithm on a machine ;P
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20:29:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Conclusion: don't let people who think "Lisp in Java" is a good idea near maths.
20:45:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, where is fungot?
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20:49:28 <fungot> fizzie: nor even by srfi 1, or n-k as ecraven suggested? or is this going to be redefining chord, rather than 7.7.1 ( which is in a language like that *used* to make me right now
20:50:19 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Conclusion, people fail hard at big-O.
20:50:42 <Phantom_Hoover> [["I am not racist, I've been friendly with an Indian for 30 years. I've also been to a Muslim wedding where it was explained to me that alcohol would not be served and I respected that.]] — a Daily Mail quotee, doing what people quoted in the Mail do best.
20:50:55 <pikhq> *Especially* people who believe that Lisp in Java is a good idea.
20:51:55 <pikhq> Also, if you follow up "I am not racist" with "I have a $RACE friend", you might just be a racist.
20:52:21 <elliott> racist is an adjective fffffffffffffffffffffff
20:53:54 <pikhq> elliott: Many many many adjectives are also nouns, interpreted as "an $adjective person"... Sorry.
20:54:41 <elliott> it tends to be used in a prejudicial way, i find
20:54:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Still, not as bad as ais523's condemnation of the use of "damn" as an intransitive verb.
20:56:57 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure that's just a property of pretty much all prejudice being based on arbitrary classifications with simple adjectives.
20:57:25 <pikhq> I doubt there's much prejudice against disestablishmentarians.
20:57:58 <pikhq> Or antidisestablishmentarians.
20:58:39 <olsner> antidisestablishmentarianism is quite hard to type
20:59:44 <Phantom_Hoover> My password was once "ultraneocontraantidisestablishmentarianistically".
20:59:57 <Gregor> <Phantom_Hoover> Whoops, still is!
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21:00:46 <olsner> you'd be a bloody fast typist then!
21:00:52 <Phantom_Hoover> It was for a school computer with an obnoxious password policy.
21:01:39 <Phantom_Hoover> When you have a 48-character password, you get it right *first time*.
21:03:46 <olsner> you kind of missed the point there, but whatever
21:04:00 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Failure. "Ultraneocontraäntidisestablishmentarianistically". You sir are a failure of a human being.
21:04:17 <pikhq> </far_over_the_top_spelling_nazi>
21:05:33 <olsner> damn, writing an os/kernel is a wide project, there are about a hundred of different things I could start implementing now
21:06:04 <olsner> it boots, goes into long mode, can jump between kernel and user mode
21:07:06 <olsner> yeah, it would be... having something that can use that console would also be good :P
21:08:06 <pikhq> I suggest getting a hosted ISO C environment up and running.
21:08:12 <pikhq> (bare minimum for a useful OS and all that)
21:08:33 <pikhq> Or, yes, you could just copulate with C and call it a day.
21:09:27 <olsner> well, as I see it that's all wrapped in a libc that would eventually result in system calls (those system calls are obviously not implemented yet), so really I'm at the stage of getting a hosted assembly environment up and running
21:09:38 <olsner> although not even at that stage
21:10:43 <elliott> (if you do want that, pdclib, anyway)
21:11:17 <pikhq> What, you mean anyone could want anything *but* yet another Unix-alike?
21:12:04 <olsner> regardless of that, the libc will need kernel support
21:12:12 <elliott> even if olsner does writing libc is part of the fun
21:12:32 <olsner> even if magic would be convenient it would ruin the fun
21:12:34 <pikhq> elliott: Newlib's pretty nice for getting things up and running really quickly, though.
21:13:18 <Ilari> Unexpected: AFRINIC apparently got a /8...
21:14:26 <olsner> I think a console driver, and some messages from the kernel, would be a pretty good start... then I can add syscalls for printing/reading from it (at least until I wrap it in whatever my stream/file/object api will look like)
21:15:49 <pikhq> Ilari: Huh. I thought their usage was such that they wouldn't need any more addresses until after IPv4 doomsday...
21:15:51 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yup, we've got a few more months of IPv4 address space left.
21:16:15 <Ilari> Yeah. 6 more /8s to allocate (plus the 5 /8s to distribute after those 6 are depleted).
21:16:28 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, what are the chances of total civilisational collapse afterwards?
21:16:45 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Quite low.
21:17:21 <Phantom_Hoover> It would have been an awesome story to tell to the children around the fire in the ruins of our cities.
21:17:44 <pikhq> Decent chance of being a bit of a painful punch to the economy though.
21:18:02 <pikhq> "What do you mean, we can't take any more clients until we upgrade our 15 year old tech?"
21:18:03 <Phantom_Hoover> "So, granda, how did everything go wrong?" "We ran out of space on the internet."
21:18:27 <Ilari> Basically, there will be 3 more IPv4 allocations from IANA (2 /8s each). Then the 6 are exhausted and rest 5 are allocated immediately.
21:18:37 <Phantom_Hoover> DISCLAIMER: the old man didn't know exactly how IPs worked.
21:19:06 <olsner> ipv6 = the postapocalyptic internet
21:19:55 <Ilari> Each RIR will get one of those 5 blocks. And the previous three allocations would seem to go to ARIN, APNIC and RIPE.
21:20:48 <pikhq> elliott: IANA allocates to the RIRs, and each RIR allocates to entities in their region.
21:21:06 <pikhq> elliott: So, the actual end of IPv4 allocations will be a few months *after* IANA runs out.
21:21:16 <Ilari> Appraently in order: APNIC, RIPE, ARIN, all in first half of next year (unless something unexpected happens).
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21:23:32 <Ilari> This model is estimating that when IANA runs out and the resulting dust settles, there are 22.82 blocks still held by RIRs (plus 3.56 blocks set aside).
21:24:35 <pikhq> And when does the first RIR run out?
21:25:09 <cheater99> olsner: http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/intelligentdesignsort.html
21:25:16 <Ilari> In about one year (unless there is run on the bank scenario... If that happens, could be a lot sooner).
21:25:49 <pikhq> So, about one year if we have essentially the same allocation trends...
21:26:06 <pikhq> And we're still not IPv6 ready.
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21:26:47 <Vorpal> elliott, yellow text (minecraft): "Absolutely dragon-free!"
21:26:49 <Ilari> As said, possibility of "run on the bank" scenario is still there. If that happens, all bets are off.
21:28:21 <pikhq> If that happens, well, maybe some bean counters will start having a heartattack once they realise they cannot grow at all until they do massive upgrades.
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21:28:37 <pikhq> Actually, no, they almost certainly will, it's just a matter of when they realise that...
21:28:56 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: "Oh shit we're about to run out of IPv4. EVERYONE GET SOME!"
21:29:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't see why the heart attacks would be a bad thing.
21:30:42 <pikhq> Everybody should have finished upgrading years ago.
21:31:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, but anything that thins out the accountants is good.
21:31:03 <pikhq> As it is, people aren't likely to start upgrading until, oh, 2012.
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21:33:04 <Ilari> And there's no telling what is going to happen after IANA announces it has allocated the last block...
21:33:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Fire raining from the skies, cats and dogs living together!
21:34:24 <Ilari> http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2009/12/our-disaster-recovery-plan.png
21:34:32 <pikhq> Well, "The Internet is full, we need to use a new one" is sure to be a kick in the balls to investors.
21:40:10 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, that... that is the best description of the problem ever.
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22:02:36 <olsner> oh right, flat address space, no segment override required
22:04:10 <olsner> tried to write stuff into what will become my kernel data area as [gs:edi] but realized I can just write to the address of it directly
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22:06:08 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover!
22:06:14 <Sgeo> They're the same
22:06:20 <Sgeo> Oh wait, that's a 0
22:07:05 <Sgeo> It's like asking which is faster, O(2) or O(1)
22:07:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, you are correct. The people who _wrote_ Clojure got that wrong.
22:07:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Although they thought "Lisp in Java" was a good idea, so...
22:09:06 <olsner> hmm, I need to meditate further on the nature of the kernel stack
22:10:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Lisp as intermediate representation: as stupid as it sounds?
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22:11:21 <olsner> I mean: if I have exactly one kernel stack [per cpu], will that simply work? or would I need a per-process kernel stack?
22:11:29 <Sgeo> I remember discussion on this channel about how s-expressions were originally intended as an intermediate representation
22:11:46 <olsner> I guess if I don't preempt I'll just never leave the kernel with a non-empty stack
22:13:02 <olsner> eventually though, this sucker should be smp capable, just because it's the right thing to do... and that's a bit mindbending
22:13:29 <Phantom_Hoover> SEXPS are actually basically used as an intermediate representation in cl-ppcre.
22:14:24 <olsner> eugh, interrupts get RSP loaded from the TSS, so obviously I need separate "kernel" and "interrupt" stacks
22:15:00 <Phantom_Hoover> This actually means that PPCRE is actually frequently *faster* than Perl's own regexes.
22:15:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: er, cl-ppcre is just a binding, no?
22:16:02 <elliott> wait PCRE = perl compatible regexes wonder what the extra p is for
22:17:02 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC it has a facility to compile regexes into some Lisp code that does what the regex would do.
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22:17:21 <Phantom_Hoover> This can be compiled into native code, while Perl's library just interprets.
22:23:30 <Sgeo> This is the first time I was utterly confused by a Sam Hughes NaNoWriMo
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22:24:59 <Sgeo> It was... difficult to read, I guess
22:25:20 <Sgeo> For the most part, I had little idea what was going on
22:26:48 <Sgeo> http://qntm.org/puggle
22:27:18 <Sgeo> Um.. according to Sam, something about destroying the world since it didn't end on Dec. 22, 2012 like it should have
22:27:26 <Sgeo> And that saves it
22:30:59 <elliott> Sam Hughes cannot possibly write anything more confusing than "Unbelievable scenes", so shut up.
22:33:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Now try http://qntm.org/unbelievable.
22:34:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The best part is, after that one, you can read the REST of Fine Structure! Unlike me, who hasn't read past The Story So Far!
22:35:20 <elliott> Iain M. Banks needs to write a novel with Sam Hughes. That is what I have decided.
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22:38:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The latter, yes; Ed stories and most of his standalone fiction, plus I read a good chunk of his old webcomic and god knows what else.
22:38:35 <elliott> Fine Structure, his second novel -- although the Ed stories only became a novel near the end, really -- I have yet to complete.
22:38:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But, you know, http://qntm.org/unbelievable is the first chapter, so (unless you already have) go read it.
22:39:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I've read everything by Iain M Banks, so I'll tackle Hughes later.
22:39:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (And no, it isn't just a series of disconnected vignettes.)
22:39:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://qntm.org/unbelievable YOU CANNOT RESIST
22:39:24 <Sgeo> elliott, he has a webcomic?
22:39:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also, the first two sentences of the second chapter will convince you for sure. (Read the first chapter first, of course.)
22:39:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (A chapter is a page.)
22:40:34 <elliott> Sgeo: http://qntm.org/files/stickmanstickman/index.php
22:40:54 <elliott> It appears that the actual comic is now down.
22:42:28 <elliott> http://qntm.org/files/stickmanstickman/comics.php But here's some source code.
22:43:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: He definitely has his own (awesome) style, though. SECOND CHAPTER GO GO GO
22:43:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (Resistance... is... useless!)
22:44:17 <elliott> I hereby appoint him #esoteric's Poet Laureate.
22:44:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's only 10:44. Man the fuck up.
22:44:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (Or read it TOMORROW.)
22:44:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (Note: It will take multiple days to release.)
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22:44:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (Note: It will take multiple days to read.)
22:45:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It is a *long* novel.
22:45:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://qntm.org/structure is a TOC. (Some of the chapter titles are vaguely spoilery, so just glance, and then realise that all the ones marked (subdirectory) are multiple full-length chapters in one.)
22:47:01 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, does he have Banks' habit of leaving you with /that much/ book left and the whole plot at a point where it seems a resolution would take an entire sequel?
22:47:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not sure about Fine Structure. I'm find it hard working out whether the Ed stories do that.
22:48:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Actually, to optimise your enjoyment, you should probably read the Ed stories first, as it's not quite as grand-scale as Fine Structure and if you do it the other way around it'll seem anticlimatic.
22:48:26 <elliott> (http://qntm.org/ed; and yes, the writing does get incomprehensibly better.)
22:49:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What, even http://qntm.org/robot1? :P
22:49:27 <elliott> IN A WORLD... THAT MAKES SENSE ONLY TO CRAZY SCI-FI BUFFS... [[...so in the end, we - this is me and Ed - said "to hell with moisture detectors" and built the giant robot instead.]]
22:49:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not sure that's a universal truth, there.
22:51:31 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, thanks for telling me about quicklisp.
22:51:46 <elliott> You're welcome! I do whatever xach tells me to.
22:51:54 <pikhq> http://www.aclu.org/national-security_technology-and-liberty/are-you-living-constitution-free-zone *sigh*
22:52:26 <elliott> pikhq: It would be AWESOME if the Constitution actually said that it applied to all of America except that border.
22:53:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You know, when *I* used Common Lisp, there wasn't even clbuild.
22:53:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do you know what we had? We had ASDF-INSTALL. That was it!
22:53:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It complained about EVERY SINGLE PACKAGE not GPG-validating.
22:53:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And it spit out SO MUCH USELESS OUTPUT that you could NEVER tell what to do if it failed.
22:53:35 <pikhq> elliott: It's not that the Constitution says that, it's that the federal government is convinced it can ignore that.
22:53:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: why would you do that
22:54:18 <elliott> pikhq: I'm not sure what you guys like so much about the constitution anyway. The left, anyway; it doesn't exactly provide for much socialism.
22:54:33 <elliott> Okay, violating it isn't good. But still, it's a bit of a crap constitution if you ask me.
22:54:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: * Installing FOURPLAY...
22:54:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But, uhh, yeah, welcome to McCLIM.
22:55:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You won't be using it in a day or two.
22:55:24 <pikhq> elliott: Well, it's more that people worship the damned thing while ignoring every single provision of it.
22:55:26 <elliott> http://common-lisp.net/project/climacs/images/screenshots/jpegsinclimacs.png Apparently Lena is "aroused at the new functionality!".
22:55:27 <pikhq> elliott: In particular the bit about how the federal government has *no powers* that aren't granted to it by the Constitution...
22:55:50 <pikhq> De jure, the federal government is incapable of doing almost everything it de facto does.
22:55:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://common-lisp.net/project/climacs/images/screenshots/completions.png Look at that modernity!
22:56:05 <elliott> pikhq: I think you guys should replace the Constitution with something saner.
22:56:22 <elliott> pikhq: Like, something that actually lets the government do helpful things. Maybe then people wouldn't get so used to violating it.
22:56:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Indeed. Lena is UGLY.
22:56:29 <pikhq> elliott: Heck, it'd just be saner if it were just followed and then the state governments actually did things...
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22:56:46 <elliott> pikhq: what is the benefit of the US being one country, again?
22:57:02 <pikhq> elliott: Not a whole lot.
22:57:29 <pikhq> It could just be the North American Union.
22:57:35 <pikhq> With the Amero as its currency.
22:58:10 <elliott> pikhq: Or, you know, separate currencies.
22:58:28 <pikhq> elliott: Y'know what the truly awesome thing is about this?
22:58:51 <pikhq> elliott: We could let the hicks suffer under their self-imposed Christian Sharia, and not have to deal with their bullshit any more.
22:59:05 <elliott> Yeah 'cuz they're totally localised :P
22:59:43 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, separate currencies exist for a reason, even if they are dumbtarded.
22:59:48 <pikhq> elliott: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ac/PurpleNation.PNG Let the solid red states suffer.
23:00:08 <elliott> pikhq: It doesn't make sense to unify strong economies under one currency; only to unify multiple weak economies, plus a few strong economies. (The Euro is a large-scale example of this.)
23:00:36 <pikhq> elliott: Economic systems need some major refactoring.
23:00:50 <elliott> politics is so fucking boring
23:00:54 <elliott> we should be less boring here
23:01:30 <elliott> pikhq: so did you know that qemu-system-x86_64 is really slow
23:01:36 <Ilari> Yeah... Disturb economic systems enough and they don't bend, they collapse... With bad results.
23:02:08 <pikhq> Yeah, our economic systems are really really fragile.
23:04:22 <pikhq> elliott: Laik, use a better CPU
23:04:39 <elliott> pikhq: laik, intel have decided that laptop cpus don't deserve virtualisation support
23:04:44 <elliott> pikhq: because they're fuckwads
23:04:58 <elliott> my next processor will not be intel :)
23:05:02 <elliott> pikhq: anyway this is just for a lisp machine!
23:05:37 <elliott> pikhq: x86-64 Debian testing emulating x86-64 Ubuntu 7.10 emulating Alpha Tru64 UNIX basically-emulating a Lisp Machine running Genera.
23:13:12 <elliott> Vorpal: night, GENERA LOSER
23:13:15 <elliott> Vorpal: does genera do tcp
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23:27:38 <elliott> pikhq: I am writing Kitten's service manager / process 1 replacement now.
23:27:52 <elliott> pikhq: It is, in fact, perfectly possible to manage it entirely with the filesystem.
23:28:19 <elliott> pikhq: Things like starting and stopping services and other such stuff equates to deleting/creating (blank) files, changing permissions, etc.
23:28:33 <elliott> pikhq: Of course, if you're too WIMPY, you can use sv(8) whose interface I basically stole from runit to do the same thing.
23:31:06 <elliott> pikhq: HOWEVER I do need an opinion on a matter of most importance. Is stopping a service unlinking (whatever the path is) /sv/foo/started, or is it, I don't know, making /sv/foo/run -x?
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23:42:03 <elliott> oklopol klos the pols in o
23:42:09 <elliott> that's why he's the o klo-pol
23:43:11 <elliott> pikhq: if you don't want me to hardcode a maximum path limit NOW'S THE TIME TO STOP MY IRRESPONSIBILITY
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23:44:19 <Sgeo> Am I capable of stopping your irresponsibility?
23:44:37 <Sgeo> Also, where, exactly, have I heard the phrase "None, one, or many"?
23:44:45 * Sgeo can't figure it out
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23:46:40 <olsner> I've heard that said as "two is an impossible number"
23:50:26 <Sgeo> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeroOneInfinityRule
23:50:34 <Sgeo> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TwoIsAnImpossibleNumber
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23:52:18 <elliott> hmm, why is there no strmulticat function in C?
23:52:25 <elliott> takes a string and an array of strings
23:53:47 <elliott> it would be ok if strcat at least returned dest + strlen(dest)
23:54:48 <olsner> you need: memcpy, strlen, addition
23:55:58 <Sgeo> "Let's say you're designing an improvement over WIMP"
23:56:09 <Sgeo> This sounds like the Richard guy, although it's unsigned
23:57:34 <Sgeo> Um, some UI concept, I think. Basically the norm for general purpose computers, unless you're using a tiled WM?
23:57:45 <Sgeo> 'In humancomputer interaction, WIMP stands for "window, icon, menu, pointing device", '
00:00:16 <elliott> <olsner> you need: memcpy, strlen, addition
00:00:29 <elliott> char start[PATHLEN + LEN("run")] = SV "/";
00:00:34 <elliott> is probably not going to be a performance problem.
00:00:53 <elliott> olsner: WIMP = Weakly Interacting Massive Particle. The naming coincidence cannot be coincidental, as it is all too apropriate...
00:01:28 <olsner> if appropriate means nonsensical, then yes
00:01:45 <elliott> olsner: WIMP applications (i.e. "GUI applications") don't interact well with each other -- there's no pipes for GUIs, no easy moving of objects around -- and they tend to have many more interface aspects than they need or should have.
00:02:02 <olsner> massive and weakly interacting
00:02:03 <elliott> olsner: So, yes, WIMP programs are weakly-interacting massive particles.
00:02:18 <elliott> <olsner> massive and weakly interacting <-- ?
00:02:26 <Sgeo> elliott is designing a computer that uses the weak nuclear force as a substitute for electricity (yes, I know that somehow in some way I don't understand they're the same thing)
00:02:59 <Sgeo> Or um.. connected..ish?
00:03:33 <elliott> olsner: still think it's nonsensical? :p
00:04:49 <olsner> I'm actually not thinking at all at the moment, just writing code
00:07:29 <Sgeo> How does one "shield" against the weak interaction?
00:08:09 <Sgeo> Or maybe I'm reading too much into this
00:10:16 <elliott> Sgeo: I have no idea what you're talking about.
00:10:34 <Sgeo> " Gravitation:"
00:10:40 <Sgeo> "cannot be absorbed, transformed, or shielded against"
00:10:55 <Sgeo> I sort of read that as implying that the other interactions can
00:11:06 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_interaction
00:13:48 <elliott> now to make it do useful things
00:14:54 <Sgeo> Why does the unlimited range of the graviton imply masslessness?
00:17:13 <Sgeo> "For example, a detector with the mass of Jupiter and 100% efficiency, placed in close orbit around a neutron star, would only be expected to observe one graviton every 10 years, even under the most favorable conditions."
00:19:15 <elliott> "A cheat: To prevent people from criticizing your magic numbers, make them deep magic numbers instead. Using the nearest power of 2 (1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128...) as your magical number makes people think there is some deeper magic going on, and they'll be less likely to criticize. *innocent look*
00:19:15 <elliott> As an added bonus, they'll probably spend hours trying to figure out what that deeper magic is. :-)
00:19:15 <elliott> That is the opposite of a trick that works. The most suspicious magic numbers of all are the round ones, in any base, but especially base 2 and base 10. PrimeNumbers, on the other hand, are essential for many algorithms to work correctly (e.g. many forms of hashing, with a prime table size). So use numbers like 131 and 6983 :-)"
00:20:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Yellow: "Polynomial!"
00:20:44 <Sgeo> base 10 is much more suspicious than base 2
00:21:32 <Sgeo> Active Worlds has a ... really weird magic number
00:22:09 <Sgeo> 32764 is the highest coordinate
00:22:35 <Sgeo> Which, at first glance, makes sense, because it's 3 coords away from 32767, which looks like it should make sense
00:22:45 <Sgeo> But the units are dekameters, and AW does things in centimeters...
00:24:18 <Sgeo> Hmm. Maybe internally, some int that has units of dekameters IS being stored in the client
00:24:20 <Sgeo> As a signed int
00:24:36 <Sgeo> Weird, but whatever
00:29:42 <olsner> it could be using some bits for tags (e.g. unit = centimeters or dekameters)
00:30:09 <olsner> hmm, that doesn't necessarily make sense
00:40:57 <elliott> olsner: can i pay you to write a compiler to machine code in x86-64 assembly
00:41:24 <olsner> I don't know how your finances are, so it's really impossible for me to tell
00:41:45 <elliott> olsner: ok, what if i didn't pay you?
00:42:02 <elliott> olsner: also the code is freestanding, so no libc
00:42:13 <olsner> btw, my console driver can output single characters and newlines now
00:42:46 <olsner> as in clear the current line and move to the next line *or the upper-left corner of the screen*
00:44:04 <olsner> and I have programmed the APIC to give timer interrupts
00:47:46 <elliott> olsner: scrolling is easy, even i did scrolling :P
00:47:49 <elliott> admittedly in C, but c'mon!
00:48:06 <olsner> I didn't bother implementing scrolling :)
00:50:28 <olsner> although haskell is my language of choice for writing compilers, it does seem interesting to write one in assembly
00:51:35 * olsner looks at topic: GREGOR HAS NOT WASHED HIS BEARD!? FILTHY GREGOR!
00:51:48 * Gregor strokes his bald chin.
00:53:35 <elliott> olsner: it'd be high-level-language to x86-64 machine code, written in x86-64 assembly
00:53:48 <elliott> olsner: (in OS-level code)
01:03:41 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/vIIc1.png Google: "Fuck you Facebook"
01:05:49 <Sgeo> Someone's going to think that that means the contacts would be deleted from Gmail
01:09:21 <Sgeo> elliott, you have an amazing amount of faith in computer users
01:09:37 <elliott> Sgeo: No, I don't; I have a decent amount of faith in Google's writing team.
01:10:17 <Sgeo> s/decent/amazing/
01:10:18 <elliott> I think the intersection of "people who are savvy enough to (1) use gmail and (2) put it into facebook to import contacts" and "people who manage to read that as 'we delete u conversations'" is very small.
01:10:30 <elliott> Gmail isn't exactly ubiquitous.
01:10:57 <Sgeo> Hmm, good point, I guess
01:11:02 <elliott> Gregor: [[Q: GPL sucks! Now I can't compile my BSD programs with the diet libc!
01:11:02 <elliott> A: Wrong. You can compile them, and you can use them. You just can't
01:11:02 <elliott> redistribute the binaries. That said: I will not be sueing anybody
01:11:02 <elliott> for distributing binaries of BSD programs linked against dietlibc, as
01:11:02 <elliott> long as the source code is available somewhere publicly.]]
01:11:06 <elliott> Gregor: That's new, I think X-P
01:11:19 <elliott> Gregor: (Discuss now whether "I will not be sueing anybody [...]" counts as a license to do that.)
01:11:32 <Gregor> It's irrelevant whether it is or not, he's still wrong.
01:13:53 <pikhq> The GPL is really really stupid for libraries.
01:13:59 <pikhq> *Especially* statically linked ones.
01:14:23 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, he is. I'm torn between "hell, developers can go fuck themselves anyway" and "WOULDN'T IT BE SAFER TO SUFFER THROUGH THE QUAGMIRE OF CONFIGURATION AND COMPILATION THAT IS UCLIBC ON A REGULAR BASIS"
01:14:50 <coppro> elliott: I should just write you a libv
01:14:57 <elliott> coppro: yeah, yeah. at least he's wrong about that and it is legal to redistribute dietlibc-linked binaries, as long as you also offer the source to the program "under the GPL" (i.e. you can offer it under the BSD too, since that can be used as GPL)
01:15:01 <elliott> coppro: sure, that'd be great
01:15:05 <elliott> coppro: when will it be done
01:15:34 <coppro> elliott: when you convince my university to let me take that instead of retarded 2nd-year courses
01:15:44 <elliott> coppro: i'll pay you 3p a week
01:20:21 <pikhq> coppro: That's a few thousand USD, though.
01:21:02 <coppro> pikhq: yeah, but that money is worthless here
01:31:51 <elliott> pikhq: I'll pay you $7,000/week to do it.
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01:36:00 <elliott> coppro: To be honest, coreutils would be more useful than a libc.
01:38:37 <elliott> coppro: I'm gonna go crazy here. $8,000/week. That's 6.86p!
01:38:55 <elliott> coppro: And I'll pay by the SECOND.
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01:49:02 <coppro> that money is worthless here
01:49:20 <elliott> coppro: besides, it has our Queen on it
01:49:25 <coppro> elliott: 6.86p is only worth like $10
01:49:42 <elliott> coppro: it's law; any piece of metal with the Queen's face on it is legal tender throughout the commonweahlth
01:49:58 <elliott> coppro: heh i read that as $1
01:53:06 <pikhq> elliott: I highly doubt that.
01:56:01 <elliott> comex: congratulations, Hillary Rodham Clinton!
01:56:24 <pikhq> elliott: Well, I am in a country formed by treason against the Crown.
01:57:07 <elliott> pikhq: And look where that's got you!
01:57:34 <Sgeo> It got us free of ridiculous libel laws?
01:58:00 <coppro> I will make coreutils under the Forwardspace banner
01:58:06 <Sgeo> (Just learned about the SPEECH Act of 2010)
01:58:09 <coppro> Forwardspace is like the opposite of Backspace
01:58:13 <elliott> coppro: Do I want to know what that is?
01:58:20 <coppro> so you can also omit the name and also the character afterwards
01:58:30 <pikhq> elliott: BTW, your currency is freaking mad.
01:58:44 <coppro> that way, Linux distributions that use Forwardspace coreutils should be referred to as "Forwardspace/Linux" or just "Linux"
01:58:47 <pikhq> There are 14 completely different entities that make it.
01:58:53 <elliott> pikhq: "1 UK£ = 1.6121 U.S. dollars" --Google
01:59:05 <elliott> coppro: Or how about just calling it "minimalist core utilities for Linux" :-P
01:59:12 <elliott> pikhq: Decentralisation, bitch.
01:59:47 <Sgeo> elliott, when did Hillary Rodham Clinton _call_ a CFJ?
01:59:54 <coppro> elliott: Minutils/Linux sounds awful
01:59:56 <Sgeo> She's been the SUBJECT of one, yes
02:00:11 <elliott> Sgeo: In my imaginary version of the game, Hillary Rodham Clinton punched you to death.
02:00:15 <pikhq> elliott: With different currency designs from each entity.
02:00:24 <elliott> pikhq: I think they're basically unified...
02:00:28 <elliott> coppro: So don't call it that :P
02:00:36 <elliott> coppro: The coreutils used is no more important than the libc, the httpd, the package manager.
02:00:46 <elliott> coppro: Hell, the kernel -- it's pointless to call anything an "X distribution" really.
02:01:03 <elliott> All "Linux distribution" means nowadays is "GNU, oh and some of that Torvalds stuff too".
02:01:23 <pikhq> elliott: No, they're radically different designs for the banknotes.
02:01:37 <elliott> pikhq: at least our currency is strong :P
02:01:45 <pikhq> elliott: We'll fix that yet.
02:01:46 <Gregor> http://js.codu.org/wiki/
02:02:03 <elliott> pikhq: Dude, we wouldn't let him in.
02:02:24 <Gregor> Dude this shit's so Web 2.0 it's Web 2.2
02:02:40 * Sgeo is waiting for Web Gingerbread to come out
02:02:46 <elliott> Gregor: When I look at that logo, I see someone trying to sell me something.
02:02:52 <elliott> Gregor: Make it Comic Sans or something so I know you don't give a shit.
02:02:52 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, we'll export him alright.
02:03:02 <pikhq> elliott: And make him all the Lords.
02:03:11 <Gregor> elliott: I don't do aesthetics, I get other people to :P
02:03:44 * Sgeo WTFs at the OpenID he just put in
02:03:53 <elliott> Gregor: <span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive; color: pink">hurf durf codu js</span>
02:03:59 * Sgeo WTFs even more at it working
02:04:21 <pikhq> Scotland and Ireland have no legal tender.
02:04:26 <pikhq> Erm, Northern Ireland.
02:04:30 <Sgeo> I tiredly put in sgeoster@myopenid.com
02:04:32 <pikhq> Ireland, of course, uses the Euro.
02:04:38 <Sgeo> I got directed to myopenid.com
02:05:01 <elliott> pikhq: "Repeal the 26th Amendment!" --Ann Coulter
02:05:07 <elliott> Sgeo: foo@yahoo.com is a valid OpenID too.
02:05:11 <Gregor> pikhq: I DO BELIEVE that they use GBP in Scotland and Northern Ireland, they're not on the barter system :P
02:05:14 <elliott> It's a Feature, it appears.
02:05:23 <pikhq> Gregor: It's not legal tender.
02:05:25 <elliott> Gregor: They're also unwashed.
02:05:32 <pikhq> Gregor: It's the *de facto* currency.
02:05:34 <elliott> pikhq: THE MARKET IS THE BLACK MARKET
02:05:43 <Sgeo> elliott, that just translates to http://foo.yahoo.com ? That's what happened here. Or is that a MyOpenID thing?
02:05:51 <Gregor> pikhq: THE SCOTTISH BANK PRINTS SCOTTISH VERSIONS OF GBP
02:06:02 <elliott> Sgeo: Both do that, clearly.
02:06:08 <elliott> Gregor: I'll scot your version.
02:06:10 <pikhq> Gregor: NOT BANK, BANKS.
02:06:16 <pikhq> Gregor: ALSO, THOSE ARE PROMISSORY NOTES.
02:06:45 <Gregor> pikhq: Last I checked, your mom is a promissory note.
02:08:01 <elliott> I LOVE HOW SLOWLY UBUNTU 7.10 INSTALLS UNDER SOFTWARE EMULATION OF X86-64
02:10:51 <elliott> "fgetty is actually a mingetty stripped of the printfs. Why would anyone do that? Because it can be linked against dietlibc then, yielding a 7k binary with a much smaller memory footprint."
02:11:22 <elliott> Bah! It prints out /etc/issue.
02:12:12 <Gregor> Gaaaaaaaawd this dietlibc guy's license incompetence irks me.
02:12:26 <elliott> Gregor: It's one single mistake :P
02:12:44 * Sgeo angers at a rumor he was sure wasn't true not coming true
02:12:51 <elliott> Gregor: I'm not entirely sure that FAQ section *is* new. Besides, he hasn't replied to the second email I sent him -- probably sick of my whining.
02:12:56 <Sgeo> Although my reason for doubting the rumor turned out to be a bad reason
02:14:24 <elliott> Gregor: It does irk me too a bit though but only because I'm planning to actually put it into practice.
02:14:50 <elliott> Gregor: On one hand, of course in court both the truth and his statement that he won't sue would end it immediately. On the other, I don't want to be on the bad side of developers...
02:16:40 * Sgeo wonders how much memory Jolicloud requires
02:20:27 <elliott> I'm going to try and redo my pcc toolchain with dietlibc.
02:24:16 <elliott> Gregor: How come CVS isn't dead?
02:24:23 <elliott> Seriously, I've used CVS SO MUCH in the past days.
02:24:28 <Gregor> Same 'ere, actually :P
02:24:43 <elliott> Gregor: I thought svn had taken over for all the clods who won't use anything distributed.
02:25:23 <elliott> Apparently gmake can't do elseif :P
02:27:33 <elliott> Gregor: Good luck finding a Lisper who does
02:27:36 <elliott> Gregor: Rather than ))) :P
02:28:10 <elliott> Haa, dietlibc almost compiles with pcc.
02:28:35 <elliott> $ make CC="$K/stage1/bin/pcc -D__restrict__= -D__regparm__(x)="
02:28:45 <elliott> Oops, needs more escaping, of course.
02:29:02 <elliott> Hmm, that doesn't apply inside __attribute__.
02:29:33 <elliott> Gregor: Using a BSD compiler to compile something with GPL-related semi-controversy; do I get a medal?
02:29:38 <elliott> /home/elliott/kitten/stage1/bin/pcc -D__restrict__= -I. -isystem include -Os -fstrict-aliasing -momit-leaf-frame-pointer -mfancy-math-387 -W -Wall -Wextra -Wchar-subscripts -Wmissing-prototypes -Wmissing-declarations -Wno-switch -Wno-unused -Wredundant-decls -c lib/qsort.c -o bin-x86_64/qsort.o -D__dietlibc__
02:29:38 <elliott> major internal compiler error: lib/qsort.c, line 34
02:30:02 <elliott> quicksort(base,size,l,j,compar);
02:31:32 <elliott> I have no idea what it thinks is wrong with quicksort :P
02:31:43 <coppro> elliott: stop being such a ricer
02:31:57 <elliott> coppro: Uhh, because of the flags? Not my flags kthx.
02:32:03 <elliott> coppro: Also, uhh, -Wanything != ricer
02:32:07 <elliott> The only optimisation flags there are
02:32:14 <elliott> -Os -fstrict-aliasing -momit-leaf-frame-pointer -mfancy-math-387
02:32:27 <coppro> elliott: your pedantic obssession with tiny libraries and compilers is
02:32:34 <elliott> In fact, is -fstrict-aliasing strictly an optimisation? (Pun, etc.)
02:32:51 <comex> but they're certainly nicer
02:32:56 <elliott> coppro: I could respond to that seriously, or I could just roll my eyes and proclaim that, yes, you have successfully deduced my motive from IRC compile logs.
02:33:26 <elliott> coppro: If you pointed me to the BEST LIBC EVER and it just happened to be gigantic, fine. I'd consider it.
02:33:50 <elliott> But as smallness *is* a virtue -- a strong virtue, even -- of software, and those who excel in one software virtue tend to excel in the others (and contrariwise)...
02:33:51 <coppro> -fstrict-aliasing is not directly an optimization
02:34:12 <elliott> Besides, smaller code is prettier. And to hell with any system I can't look at and say is pretty in some way, even if it is Unix.
02:34:26 <coppro> -fstrict-aliasing won't do squat at -O0
02:34:31 <elliott> It's not like I'm wasting time doing this that I could be spending doing valuable things, this whole thing is an exercise in wheel-polishing^Wreinventing.
02:34:43 <coppro> but you asked if it was an optimization
02:34:52 <coppro> (also, I /do/ agree with -Os)
02:35:05 <elliott> -Os is usually faster than -O3 these days, I'd wager.
02:35:24 <coppro> also it generates correct code, etc.
02:35:44 <coppro> (-ftree-vectorize produces some of the dumbest things ever)
02:35:57 <coppro> a friend works a lot on ffmpeg
02:36:06 <coppro> and they get to find all of GCC's wonderful compiler bugs
02:36:12 <elliott> coppro: Can you use your amazing powers of deduction to figure out what "major internal compiler error: lib/qsort.c, line 34" is telling me, other than "don't use pcc to compile dietlibc"? :P
02:36:15 <elliott> Yeah, gcc is buggy software.
02:36:35 <elliott> coppro: ...you're kidding me
02:36:45 <elliott> coppro: just with heavy optimisation, presumably?
02:37:04 <elliott> coppro: i can *sort* of forgive that because heavy optimisation + assert = why, but on the other hand... gcc fails at basic comparisons WHOO
02:37:14 <comex> B's ruleset is surreal
02:37:16 <elliott> at least when pcc fails, it just says "major internal compiler error" and gives up
02:37:26 <elliott> comex: B stopped being boring as soon as Era 5 ended!
02:37:31 <elliott> comex: B stopped being interesting as soon as Era 5 ended!
02:37:41 <elliott> That was the most fun bit of chaos EVER and I'm totally not biased.
02:37:56 <comex> it's like Japanese, where Chinese is the Agoran ruleset.
02:38:52 <elliott> comex: ALLOW ME LINK YOU TO THE SUPERIOR, ERA 5 RULESET (AS SOON AS THE WIKI LOADS)
02:39:08 <coppro> elliott: which was Era 5?
02:39:18 * comex searches for DimShips and is disappointed
02:39:21 <elliott> coppro: The one me and teucer wrote that CHANGED EVERYTHING.
02:39:25 <Sgeo> Era 5 came and went without my noticing?
02:39:34 <elliott> Sgeo: ...era 5, the Agoran Era, and countless crises.
02:39:53 <Sgeo> I think I gave up on B around the Agoran Era
02:40:00 <elliott> Sgeo: Era 5 was BEFORE that >_<K
02:40:04 <comex> Rule 50 would be fun to scam
02:40:13 <Sgeo> Which was the Era with the Ring of 4E13?
02:40:15 <elliott> coppro: Everyone then spent the whole time whining at me for making it SO BROKEN on a few weeks' notice (it was in an Emergency), spent the rest of the era fixing it up and generally having much fun in chaos without realising it, and then wiping it saying it was AWFUL.
02:40:17 <Sgeo> I was around then
02:40:20 <elliott> coppro: The game then promptly died.
02:40:22 <Sgeo> ...Era 5 is the obvious answer
02:40:34 <Sgeo> elliott, _RING OF_
02:40:35 <elliott> Sgeo: 4E = Fourth Era, but yes, I think that was 5.
02:40:43 <pikhq> In order to be an EU member state, the state must be European.
02:40:50 <comex> 5. MAY, PERMITTED: Performing the described action does not violate the rule in question. Where there is no more specific indication to the contrary, this also implies that the action is POSSIBLE.
02:40:59 <pikhq> Where European means "European, as judged by the European Council".
02:41:04 <elliott> coppro: Bgoran era was after that.
02:41:04 <coppro> comex: WHERE IS MY LINK
02:41:17 <Sgeo> I wanted to take people with me on a journey to retrieve the ring
02:41:21 <pikhq> Which allows for EU members to not exist geographically in Europe.
02:41:25 <Sgeo> I had it all planned out
02:41:29 <Sgeo> It would take real-world months
02:41:43 <elliott> coppro: comex: Found it, second while Firefox unfreezes.
02:41:51 <pikhq> (and there is precedent on this: Cyprus, which joined the EU in 2008, is geographically in Asia)
02:41:52 <elliott> coppro: comex: http://b.nomic.net/index.php?title=Rules&oldid=9553
02:41:56 <elliott> coppro: comex: Behold the AWESOME.
02:42:13 <comex> I was around around then
02:42:14 <Sgeo> elliott, you don't remember my plans?
02:42:44 <coppro> pikhq: that is far less dumb than it sounds, in my opinion
02:42:45 <Sgeo> I think, sadly, Marr965 was involved
02:43:04 <Sgeo> I wanted to negotiate with him for.. transportation to our departure point, I think
02:43:41 <comex> what is "Antient"?
02:43:57 <elliott> coppro: Unbelievably, that Game Objects rule was MORE legalistic and programmerish than before E5.
02:44:00 <comex> why is 4E considered imaginary?
02:44:03 <elliott> coppro: I actually TONED DOWN the crazy legalisticness.
02:44:15 <comex> wasn't there some crisis about comments
02:44:19 <elliott> comex: turns out $huge_swathes_of_history never happened for $trivial_ancient_reason
02:44:20 <comex> that applied way back to the original ruleset?
02:44:29 <elliott> comex: yes, but i think it was after that
02:44:36 <elliott> the comment crisis was what brought era 5 down I think
02:44:47 <elliott> If you ask me, the Grid game was AWESOME.
02:45:13 * Sgeo decides to check his archives
02:45:16 <elliott> Oh, I also refactored the proposal passing logic... BUT WHAT DO I GET FOR IT?
02:45:32 <elliott> # If it is Won, it Passes.
02:46:09 <elliott> [[Prize: A T-Shirt reading "I won B Nomic via at least three different Victory Conditions during an nweek, and had not won by the Win By Having Won condition during that nweek, and all I got was this stupid T-Shirt".]]
02:46:43 <Sgeo> "Marr965, would you like to help Teucer, Warrigal, and myself shave 17
02:46:43 <Sgeo> ndays off of what would be a 67 nday journey?"
02:46:59 <Sgeo> Did the era even last 67, or even 50, ndays?
02:47:29 <elliott> It lasted like 7 at the most :P
02:48:04 <elliott> I would love to have a month-or-more-long era that lasts an nday or less.
02:48:19 <Sgeo> including whether a 50 nday journey is even worth it.)"
02:49:51 <elliott> coppro: how to get past the major compiler error: compile just that file with gcc
02:50:50 <Sgeo> http://freefall.purrsia.com/
02:51:03 <Sgeo> (Note: not really)
02:53:32 <elliott> libpthread/pthread_internal.c:397: error: If-less else
02:53:53 <elliott> Notably, there's a mess of cpp here, so I don't know WHERE line 397 is :P
02:54:26 <elliott> if (__likely(__modern_linux==1))
02:54:31 * comex hates how :wq writes and quits, but :w!q writes to the file 'q'
02:54:56 <coppro> elliott: you should help us destroy Agora
02:55:00 <comex> why does that code include a runtime optimization for something that should fold to a constant
02:55:18 <elliott> comex: it's pthreads, all bets are off
02:55:53 <elliott> oh well, time-honoured trick; s/pcc/gcc/, carry on
02:56:57 * Sgeo will not stop attempts to destroy Agora unless they require the cooperation of more than 20 people
02:57:06 <Sgeo> </failed-joke>
02:58:35 <coppro> but it was just a sad truth
02:59:43 <Sgeo> Maybe I could work on attempting to scam-proof the ruleset
03:00:05 <Sgeo> Not as in, "impossible"
03:00:20 <coppro> it's pretty scam-proof as is
03:00:27 <coppro> you can escalate from 1->3 easily
03:00:49 <elliott> Sgeo: have you considered doing /other/ things
03:00:55 <comex> yeah, except I think it's now scammable
03:01:01 <elliott> maybe you could make activeworlds a partnership, and we could fine it a billion fucking dollars.
03:01:11 <Sgeo> I thought partnerships were dead
03:01:31 * Sgeo still wants to revive Framework Nomic
03:01:38 <Sgeo> Is that like reviving a fetus?
03:03:35 * Sgeo has been fantasizing about MMONomic
03:04:14 <elliott> Sgeo: You are banned from saying these words, indefinitely:
03:04:25 <elliott> Sgeo: - fantasise (and all derivative words).
03:04:29 <elliott> Sgeo: Thank you and have a nice day.
03:04:47 <elliott> - fantasy and derivatives too, to stop you loopholing that.
03:05:56 <Sgeo> So, I'm not allowed to express my nostalgia for the days that I was more activie reviving a dead game that I've fantasized about playing again for years?
03:06:31 <elliott> Sgeo: You do realise I'm an op?
03:07:40 <Sgeo> No you're not.
03:07:53 <elliott> Sgeo: You don't know that.
03:08:25 <Sgeo> Unless you're secretly andreou or Aardappel
03:08:59 <Sgeo> Or lament or oerjan or fizzie, for that matter
03:09:10 <elliott> Sgeo: Or it's just hidden in the access list.
03:10:08 <Sgeo> I don't see why I should believe that that's possible
03:10:30 <elliott> Sgeo: Are you *sure* you want a demonstration...?
03:11:26 <elliott> Sgeo: Are you sure you know how unreliable my memory is at making me remember to reverse things?
03:11:50 <Sgeo> Bannation isn't the only way to demonstrate oppness
03:12:11 <Sgeo> But let's pretend it is.
03:12:45 <elliott> Sgeo: Well, considering I don't have make-op privileges, only ChanServ privileges...
03:12:58 -!- RandSgeo has joined.
03:13:23 <RandSgeo> Surely you can ban just my nick+web ness
03:13:48 <elliott> RandSgeo: Well, yes, but I don't particularly care to.
03:14:08 <Sgeo> If only I could offer something of value :/
03:14:23 <Sgeo> I don't exactly have a million dollars on me
03:14:41 <elliott> Sgeo: You could never say the words I listed ever again >__>
03:15:24 <Sgeo> How about for the period of a month
03:16:19 * Sgeo 's confidence should not be wavering
03:16:41 <elliott> You're the one offering me things so you can *get banned*.
03:17:02 <Sgeo> Confidence in the idea that you have no capacity to ban me
03:17:28 <elliott> I have lost track of your layers of thought. Now why is the Ubuntu installation only at 31%? Could it go slower, theoretically? (No.)
03:18:14 <Sgeo> Fine. I'll keep on assuming that you have no bannination powers
03:18:45 -!- RandSgeo has quit (Quit: Page closed).
03:27:08 <elliott> $ CC="$K/stage1/bin/pcc -nostdlib -nostdinc -nostartfiles -static -isystem $K/stage1/include -D__dietlibc__ -Os -L$K/stage1/lib-x86_64 $K/stage1/lib-x86_64/start.o $K/stage1/lib-x86_64/libc.a" ./configure --prefix=$K/stage2
03:47:28 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/kitten$ du -sh --exclude=include --exclude=lib-x86_64 stage1
03:47:29 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/kitten$ du -sh --exclude=include --exclude=lib-x86_64 stage2
03:47:35 <elliott> Static linking, it's what plants crave.
03:47:45 <elliott> Now let's see if I can compile dietlibc with pcc. :p
03:52:15 <elliott> Gregor: Actually... pretty damn close.
03:52:27 <elliott> Gregor: I've even managed to fix the "major internal compiler error" that made me have to compile a certain file with gcc before.
03:53:18 <elliott> Gregor: Mostly what I have to fix is removing unsupported __attribute__s.
03:53:25 <elliott> Such as the format(printf,x,y) stuff.
03:54:56 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, there is this utterly queer issue though:
03:54:59 <elliott> /home/elliott/kitten/stage2/bin/pcc -D__restrict__= -I. -isystem include -Os -fstrict-aliasing -momit-leaf-frame-pointer -mfancy-math-387 -W -Wall -Wextra -Wchar-subscripts -Wmissing-prototypes -Wmissing-declarations -Wno-switch -Wno-unused -Wredundant-decls -c libpthread/pthread_internal.c -o bin-x86_64/pthread_internal.o
03:54:59 <elliott> libpthread/pthread_internal.c:397: error: If-less else
03:55:02 <elliott> Note: No if-less elses in the file.
03:55:26 <elliott> #define INTR_RETRY(e) ({ long ret; do ret=(long)(e); while ((ret==-1)&&(_errno_==EINTR)); ret; })
03:55:26 <elliott> #define __NO_ASYNC_CANCEL_STOP }
03:55:30 <elliott> I am already inspired with confidence at this file.
03:55:53 <elliott> if (__likely(__modern_linux==1))
03:59:34 <elliott> That's the C preprocessor complaining.
04:00:11 <Sgeo> The way it reads isn't what it means
04:00:14 <Sgeo> Can't say I love that
04:00:26 <elliott> Sgeo: It's called amusement.
04:00:59 * Sgeo should learn how microprocessors work
04:03:14 <elliott> /home/elliott/kitten/stage2/bin/pcc -D__restrict__= -I. -isystem include -Os -fstrict-aliasing -momit-leaf-frame-pointer -mfancy-math-387 -W -Wall -Wextra -Wchar-subscripts -Wmissing-prototypes -Wmissing-declarations -Wno-switch -Wno-unused -Wredundant-decls -c libpthread/pthread_sys_close.c -o bin-x86_64/pthread_sys_close.o
04:03:14 <elliott> libpthread/pthread_sys_close.c:7: error: expdef: out of mem
04:09:11 <elliott> Gregor: Ha ha, it worked. Pay up. Whoops, look at that error.
04:11:55 <elliott> configure:2642: /home/elliott/kitten/stage3/bin/diet -V >&5
04:12:19 <elliott> /home/elliott/kitten/stage3/include/dietref.h:-21: error: __PCC__ redefined
04:13:51 <elliott> .quad __you_tried_to_link_a_dietlibc_object_against_glibc
04:13:52 <elliott> .long __you_tried_to_link_a_dietlibc_object_against_glibc
04:14:46 <elliott> I wonder where exactly line -21 of that file is.
04:21:42 <elliott> /home/elliott/kitten/stage3/include/dietref.h:-21: error: __PCC__ redefined
04:26:32 <elliott> $ CC="$K/stage3/bin/diet -Os $K/stage2/bin/pcc" CFLAGS="-Os" ./configure --prefix=$K/stage3
04:26:51 <elliott> actually CFLAGS="", diet adds -Os itself
04:36:45 <Sgeo> Tried some Facebook thing that attempted to automatically import Google Contacts
04:37:00 <Sgeo> But it's clear that no contacts got exported
04:37:10 <Sgeo> It claimed that everyone's already on FB or got an invite
04:37:21 <Sgeo> And somehow, I doubt that Agora got a Facebook invite
04:39:31 <Ilari> Oh: "Today's IANA depletion date estimate:2011-02-21". That's months earlier than anything recent I have seen.
04:40:04 <elliott> pikhq: I have a meta-compiled-to-the-N dietlibc/pcc toolchain working except for one... minor... detail.
04:40:25 <elliott> Ilari: We should hold a party on IPv4 Doomsday (defined as: the day when the last allocation *really* gets made, ever, no delegation).
04:41:10 <Ilari> Based on this model: 2012-08-29 IANA ANNOUNCE ALL DEPLETED
04:42:14 <elliott> pikhq: Specifically: Calling a macro like MACRO() doesn't work. Seriously: zero-argument macros don't work. I looked at the pcc code. malloc is failing. ?!
04:42:34 <elliott> Ilari: Got any links to that model? Also, that's amusingly close to December 21, 2012.
04:43:29 <Sgeo> elliott, Kitten is obviously having difficulty with more than a few bytes of memory
04:43:32 <Ilari> http://www.ipv4depletion.com/?page_id=77
04:44:21 <elliott> Ilari: I really need to switch to an IPv6 provider.
04:48:04 <elliott> pikhq: gcc - 5.0K, pcc - 4.6K
04:48:55 <pikhq> elliott: So, pcc produces smaller code.
04:49:09 <elliott> pikhq: Well, with diet's -Os, yes.
04:49:24 <elliott> if ((args = malloc(sizeof(usch *) * (narg+ellips))) == NULL)
04:49:24 <elliott> error("expdef: out of mem");
04:49:34 <elliott> pikhq: WHY WOULD THIS (1) EVER HAPPEN (2) ONLY HAPPEN WHEN YOU CALL A ZERO-ARGUMENT MACRO AND NO OTHER TIME
04:49:54 <elliott> pikhq: Perhaps that number ends up ZERO!
04:50:08 <pikhq> malloc(0) should return NULL...
04:50:10 <elliott> if ((args = malloc(sizeof(usch *) * ((narg+ellips) || 1))) == NULL)
04:50:14 <elliott> pikhq: Right, but glibc's doesn't.
04:50:20 <elliott> Now let's try recompiling.
04:50:28 <pikhq> elliott: Hmm. Actually, that may be undefined behavior.
04:50:37 <pikhq> Regardless. That's plausible.
04:50:43 <elliott> pikhq: IIRC POSIX says that malloc(0) = NULL.
04:51:01 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm, got a nicer way to write my ||1 there?
04:51:09 <elliott> I could just do +1, but that's wasteful! :P
04:51:19 <elliott> Oh, (narg+ellips || 1) should work.
04:52:23 <elliott> $ CC="$K/stage3/bin/diet -Os $K/stage2/bin/pcc" CFLAGS="" ./configure --prefix=$K/stage3
04:52:42 <elliott> pikhq: Ha, wait, I really need to start from scratch, as my *current* compiler can't handle it.
04:52:47 <elliott> pikhq: Still -- I have the build process down, yo.
04:53:43 <elliott> Ilari: Let's try and get the earliest date!
04:53:47 <elliott> 2011-03-22IANAANNOUNCEDEPLETED
04:53:52 <elliott> 2012-08-13IANAANNOUNCEALL DEPLETED
04:55:08 <elliott> 2013-04-24IANAANNOUNCEDEPLETED
04:55:12 <elliott> 2014-09-22IANAANNOUNCEALL DEPLETED
04:55:31 <elliott> 2015-06-15LACNICANNOUNCEDEPLETED
04:55:32 <elliott> 2016-01-24IANAERROR NO MORE DATA
04:56:33 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:57:47 <elliott> pikhq: Say, do you know what diff format a CVS-using project will like best? "cvs diff" spews an awful lot.
05:01:43 <Sgeo> Factor has <<<<< and >>>>> words etc. to raise an error if someone tries using a conflicted Factor file
05:05:56 <Ilari> Keywords that just raise errors and do nothing else?
05:06:41 <elliott> Ilari: would be amusing if they started up an interactive merge, and then continued loading the file after it was resolved
05:08:36 <Sgeo> http://docs.factorcode.org/content/word-__lt____lt____lt____lt____lt____lt__%2Csyntax.html
05:12:10 -!- augur has joined.
05:15:59 <elliott> $ patch -p0 < ../dietlibc-for-pcc.patch
05:16:26 <elliott> -if ((args = malloc(sizeof(usch *) * (narg+ellips))) == NULL)
05:16:26 <elliott> +if ((args = malloc(sizeof(usch *) * (narg+ellips || 1))) == NULL)
05:16:33 <elliott> Seriously though, this is ugly. Can anyone think of a better way to write that?
05:17:21 <Ilari> How that does even work?
05:17:52 <elliott> Ilari: Sometimes narg+ellips is 0. pcc, being a naughty boy and defiant of standards, assumes that malloc(0) is a proper pointer, and malloc(N) being NULL for any N just means that we're out of memory.
05:17:59 <elliott> Ilari: glibc has malloc(0) point to memory (!).
05:18:10 <elliott> Ilari: But dietlibc doesn't. So, when narg+ellips = 0, the code is 0 || 1, which is 1.
05:18:17 <Ilari> That 'narg+ellips || 1' thing
05:18:26 <elliott> Ilari: (narg+ellips || 1) = max(narg+ellips, 1)
05:18:33 <elliott> Ilari: (narg+ellips || 1) --> (42 || 1) --> 42
05:18:39 <elliott> Ilari: (narg+ellips || 1) --> (0 || 1) --> 1
05:18:43 <elliott> Taking advantage of the fact that false=0, true=1 in C.
05:19:23 <Ilari> Eh... Where is that || -> max guaranteed?
05:19:35 <elliott> Ilari: Erm, it's not; it only works in this case.
05:19:53 <elliott> Ilari: It's just boolean logic. 0 || X = X. Y || X = Y iff Y>0.
05:20:07 <elliott> Ilari: In this case, X = 1. So if Y=0, Y||X = 1.
05:20:41 <elliott> Ilari: I can try and explain more :)
05:22:50 <Ilari> Lua 'or' operator is whacky: If first argument is "true", return that, otherwise return the second argument. ('and' returns second argument if first is "true", otherwise the first).
05:23:05 <elliott> Ilari: That's actually ubiquitous in dynamic languages.
05:23:12 <elliott> Python and Ruby do that too. I think Perl might.
05:23:26 <elliott> Ilari: Also, I imagine that in Lua, (3 or 5) is 3.
05:23:34 <elliott> Ilari: Since all non-"false" values will be considered true.
05:23:39 <elliott> Rather than it checking for true specifically.
05:23:44 <elliott> (Unless Lua is super-freaky.)
05:24:49 <Ilari> 3 or 5 is indeed 3.
05:25:25 <Ilari> Bit whackier: 0 or 1 is 0. :-)
05:25:43 <elliott> Yeah, most dynamic languages don't treat ints as bools either.
05:25:58 <elliott> Python is an exception; it didn't use to have a bool type, and things like (0 or x) == x and also ([] or x) == x.
05:26:01 <Ilari> Lua has exactly two false values: nil and false.
05:26:31 <elliott> Jesus! I just rm'd my patches by mistake. But I saved the big one.
05:31:10 <elliott> 2. Build pcc-libs (stage1).
05:31:10 <elliott> 3. Build dietlibc with pcc (stage2).
05:31:10 <elliott> 4. Build pcc with dietlibc and stage1 pcc (stage2).
05:31:15 <elliott> pikhq: See any holes in my bootstrapping there?
05:32:31 <elliott> pikhq: Yay. Previously, I had three stages, but then I was playing it by ear.
05:33:05 <pikhq> That appears to be the typical bootstrapping procedure, actually.
05:33:57 <zzo38> I know that in Javascript, using || returns the left side if the left side is a value considered true, while && is the other way around.
05:34:07 <elliott> pikhq: Here's my HOLY FUCKING SHIT CRAZY patch against dietlibc to make it build with pcc: http://sprunge.us/LJaX
05:34:22 <elliott> - tcbhead_t* me=alloca(sizeof(tcbhead_t)
05:34:22 <elliott> + tcbhead_t* me=alloca(sizeof(tcbhead_t));
05:34:25 <elliott> + tcbhead_t* me=alloca(sizeof(tcbhead_t)+__tmemsize);
05:34:27 <elliott> pikhq: I cannot believe that is required.
05:34:34 <elliott> pikhq: It makes me very suspicious of pcc's cpp.
05:35:08 <elliott> Hey, those __TEST_CANCEL() changes are totally unneeded, now that I have the fix in pcc.
05:36:22 <elliott> pikhq: Let me just say now that building things with dietlibc, even when it's difficult, is so insanely less painful than building them with gcc.
05:36:27 <elliott> pikhq: Let me just say now that building things with dietlibc, even when it's difficult, is so insanely less painful than building them with uClibc.
05:36:34 <elliott> uClibc does some kind of black magic and fuck that.
05:36:46 <elliott> pikhq: Not that dietlibc is perfect... it warns you every single time you use stdio.
05:36:50 <zzo38> When I asked which way you prefer to make GF-Magick work with GraphicsMagick, it is not a good answer to just say you like any ways. A better answer is the advance of one or more ways, and which way you would probably use if you were using this program.
05:37:04 <elliott> zzo38: I am not sure. I would have to use it to see.
05:37:14 <zzo38> elliott: It warns about stdio?
05:37:35 <elliott> Yes; stdio functions are rather big so it warns that they inflate the binary by 7k or so.
05:38:08 <elliott> ./libugly/system.c:link_warning("system","warning: system() is a security risk. Use fork and execvp instead!")
05:38:21 <elliott> pikhq: Gotta love a library that doesn't have system() by default... I am not sure dietlibc will work for the whole system.
05:38:51 <elliott> ./libpthread/pthread_errno.c:link_warning("errno","\e[1;33;41m>>> your multithreaded code uses errno! <<<\e[0m");
05:39:03 <elliott> pikhq: I swear to god it highlights the warning with colour codes.
05:39:22 <elliott> ./libcruft/tempnam.c:link_warning("tempnam","\e[1;33;41m>>> tempnam stinks! NEVER ! NEVER USE IT ! <<<\e[0m");
05:39:31 <zzo38> elliott: Ah many functions such as printf would be large, so, perhaps put printf and stuff in a separate file so that you can link separately, and also have perhaps printf optimizing at compile time??
05:39:44 <elliott> zzo38: It does not include printf unless you use it.
05:40:19 <elliott> pikhq: Aha, I can just disable WANT_LINKER_WARNINGS.
05:40:53 <elliott> * that is realloc-able; means realloc(..,size) gives a NEW object (like a
05:40:53 <elliott> * WARNING: this violates C99 */
05:41:00 <elliott> /* do you want that malloc(0) return a pointer to a "zero-length" object
05:41:01 <elliott> * that is realloc-able; means realloc(..,size) gives a NEW object (like a
05:41:01 <elliott> * WARNING: this violates C99 */
05:41:04 <zzo38> Even if you do use printf (and sprintf, and fprintf, and so on), that there could be a way of optimizing some uses of printf style functions at compile time
05:41:09 <elliott> pikhq: So yeah, malloc(0) != NULL is invalid C99.
05:42:34 <zzo38> I think that whether malloc(0) == NULL should be up to the implementation, but that if malloc(0) == NULL then realloc(NULL,x) should do like malloc(x). At least this is my opinion of what it should do.
05:44:39 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this?
05:48:52 <Sgeo> One night without a proper dinner shouldn't kill me
05:48:59 * Sgeo is too tired to eat
05:49:12 <elliott> $ make CC="$K/stage1/bin/pcc -D__restrict__=" prefix=$K/stage2
05:49:34 <elliott> *** glibc detected *** cpp: free(): invalid next size (fast): 0x0000000000de4d30 ***
05:49:47 <elliott> pikhq: I... ???????????????????????
05:50:15 <Sgeo> If I'm dead in the morning I'm blaming Ilari
05:50:37 <elliott> Sgeo: Have you *never* gone a night without dinner before or something?
05:51:05 <Sgeo> Not that I can recall
05:51:25 <Sgeo> Maybe.. once. Or I think I forced myself to eat a sandwich that night
05:51:35 <Sgeo> Of course, when I was a little kid, all bets are off
05:52:08 <Sgeo> Anyways, night all
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05:54:01 <zzo38> Can you have a program that unpacks only what is used, to have both speed and small?
05:57:02 <fizzie> zzo38: Isn't that already how malloc(0) is specced to work? (Except that realloc(NULL, x) == malloc(x) even if malloc(0) does return an actual, free()able pointer.)
05:57:13 <elliott> fizzie: malloc(0) is specified to return NULL in C99, I think.
05:57:23 <elliott> fizzie: Or at least, "you're not allowed to use the return value of malloc(0), so STFU".
05:58:05 <elliott> 2 The malloc function allocates space for an object whose size is specified by size and
05:58:05 <elliott> whose value is indeterminate.
05:58:05 <elliott> 3 The malloc function returns either a null pointer or a pointer to the allocated space.
05:58:13 <elliott> fizzie: Or let's just go with "the C99 draft is hopelessly vague on this point".
05:58:27 <elliott> fizzie: Aha: " If the size of the space requested is zero, the behavior is implementation-
05:58:28 <elliott> defined: either a null pointer is returned, or the behavior is as if the size were some
05:58:28 <elliott> nonzero value, except that the returned pointer shall not be used to access an object."
05:58:33 <fizzie> elliott: "If size is 0, either a null pointer or a unique pointer that can be successfully passed to free() shall be returned." (Posix 2008, which is supposed to be aligned with C99)
05:58:40 <elliott> fizzie: tl;dr malloc(0) can be anything, but you can't look at it.
05:59:07 <elliott> fizzie: Anyway, assuming that malloc(0) == NULL means that you're out of memory is definitely wrong, so there. Now rewrite (foo+bar || 1).
05:59:44 <fizzie> Huh? It can't be "anything": it's implementation-definedly (means it has to be documented) either NULL or a real pointer you can free, just not dereference.
06:00:51 <Ilari> Apparently ARIN will grab its two blocks first...
06:00:59 <elliott> fizzie: Now you get to tell me why free(args) would fail after doing:
06:01:01 <elliott> if ((args = malloc(sizeof(usch *) * (narg+ellips || 1))) == NULL)
06:01:05 <elliott> fizzie: where narg+ellips = 0.
06:01:16 <elliott> (And no, there are no previous frees.)
06:01:20 <elliott> *** glibc detected *** cpp: free(): invalid next size (fast): 0x0000000000de4d30 ***
06:01:23 <elliott> is the inexplicable error.
06:01:26 <zzo38> elliott: O, that is how the C99 draft works? In my opinion how it should work is that if malloc(0) returns NULL then you can free(NULL) safely and that if malloc(0) returns NULL then realloc(NULL,x) acts like malloc(x), but that if malloc(0) does not return NULL, then its return value must be safely pass to free() but
06:01:53 <zzo38> that in case of malloc(0) != NULL then there is no guarantee that free(NULL) or realloc(NULL,x) has to be meaningful.
06:02:06 <fizzie> zzo38: You can free(NULL) and realloc(NULL,x) safely in all cases, is how it works.
06:02:10 <zzo38> At least this is what makes sense to me.
06:02:55 <coppro> elliott: get some sleep
06:03:28 <elliott> coppro: fuck you fix my bug
06:03:37 <zzo38> fizzie: If you can safely free(NULL) and realloc(NULL,x) safely in all cases, then it should make sense that malloc(0) should return NULL (although the Posix 2008 note above that says "either a null pointer or a unique pointer that can be successfully passed to free() shall be returned" is very sensible)
06:03:42 <fizzie> elliott: Tried valgrinding it yet?-) (Can' see any obvious problems there, except that (nargs+ellips || 1) is always 1.)
06:03:52 <elliott> fizzie: "(Can' see any obvious problems there, except that (nargs+ellips || 1) is always 1.)"
06:04:06 <elliott> fizzie: Remember when I said "rewrite that"? Rewrite it so that it means max(nargs+ellips, 1) plz :P
06:04:14 <fizzie> It's not a Perl ||. :p
06:04:30 <elliott> fizzie: I suppose I could do nargs+ellips ? nargs+ellips : 1, but, er, ew.
06:05:11 <fizzie> You can do ((nargs+ellips) | 1) if you don't mind that it's sometimes one larger than necessary. :p
06:05:23 <elliott> fizzie: If I didn't mind that, I'd do something called +1.
06:05:51 <fizzie> But then it's one larger always; at least my thing is that only half of the time.
06:05:58 <elliott> fizzie: I want this to be hypothetically accepted into pcc, and I imagine the BSD guys might be a bit CAGEY about wasting sizeof(usch *) bytes like that.
06:07:53 <elliott> fizzie: Factored it out into a conditional like the cool dudes.
06:10:09 <zzo38> Is it possible to make Frama-C to work without the special ACSL but instead by commands that can be inserted anywhere in the C code where a statement is expected: assume(), assert(), assume_portable(), assert_portable(), etc.
06:10:39 <fizzie> ((nargs+ellips)|1)^(((nargs+ellips)&~1) && !((nargs+ellips)&1)) for maximum confusion.
06:10:54 <elliott> fizzie: I am so glad the if statement was invented.
06:11:45 <elliott> fizzie: However, for your ASSISTANCE, you are now an official Kitten developer. Expect drudge work.
06:12:20 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, it's really odd that you would actually *want* an allocation for a malloc(0)...
06:12:36 <pikhq> elliott: Especially with the reasoning that you might want to pass the result to realloc...
06:12:42 <pikhq> realloc of NULL works just fine.
06:12:47 <elliott> pikhq: I am so tempted to build dietlibc with malloc(0) == pointer turned on, though.
06:12:52 <elliott> pikhq: Just to give me less shit.
06:13:18 <pikhq> Well, it's *permitted* behavior, and apparently some crazy junk relies on it, so I say go for it.
06:13:18 <elliott> pikhq: (Similarly, although I've disabled the GNU program invocation name crap that only util-linux and GNU software uses, I'm tempted not to...)
06:13:29 <elliott> pikhq: But then why use dietlibc :)
06:13:45 <pikhq> Okay, go for it if it ends up actually being problematic.
06:13:59 <pikhq> Say, "HOLY FUCK I NEED TO PATCH EVERY SINGLE PROGRAM".
06:14:19 <zzo38> If realloc of NULL works fine, then the Posix specification that malloc(0) should either return NULL or a pointer passable to free or realloc, works fine. (It says "a unique pointer that can be successfully passed to free()", but it ought to include realloc() as well, or else it isn't very good)
06:14:53 <pikhq> zzo38: That's pretty bizarre specing there.
06:14:57 <elliott> * file support on kernel 2.2 or 2.0 */
06:15:03 <elliott> /* you need to define this if you want to run your programs with large
06:15:03 <elliott> * file support on kernel 2.2 or 2.0 */
06:16:03 <elliott> pikhq: I am shocked to the core that this shit actually works, and in fact all the patches I've made could be made into sane ones that condition on __PCC__ or something rather than just chainsawing up dietlibc.
06:16:15 <elliott> Still, the dietlibc patch is only 200 or so lines; the pcc patches are both tiny.
06:17:37 <zzo38> pikhq: What is bizarre?
06:17:42 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: night, GENERA LOSER <-- ?
06:17:51 <pikhq> elliott: That's pretty nice.
06:17:54 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: Yellow: "Polynomial!" <-- heh
06:18:23 <pikhq> elliott: You might want to clean up the patches a bit and send them upstream.
06:18:53 <elliott> <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: night, GENERA LOSER <-- ?
06:19:09 <elliott> pikhq: I'm going to send them as-is; they're not *too* messy and I don't know how they'd want to do this stuff, so, leave it to the maintainer!
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06:19:21 <elliott> pikhq: The pcc ones need no clean-up and are totally unobjectionable.
06:19:44 <elliott> pikhq: Well, except that the pcc-libs one mentions the name "dietlibc"; sure, it also mentions SunOS in that file, but perhaps mentioning GPL'd software is just TOO FAR for the BSD guys.
06:20:24 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you doing?
06:20:43 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/kitten$ $K/stage2/bin/diet -Os $K/stage2/bin/pcc hello.c -o hello
06:20:51 <elliott> Oh, I neglected to make install.
06:21:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Building the Kitten toolchain.
06:21:19 <Vorpal> elliott, dietlibc? kitten will use dietlibc?
06:21:25 <elliott> Vorpal: I have dietlibc built by pcc, and pcc built by pcc linked with dietlibc.
06:21:43 <Vorpal> elliott, huh, what is wrong with, say, newlib or uclibc?
06:21:50 <elliott> Vorpal: (It *is* legal to distribute the binaries, as long as I offer source; felix is mistaken about this.)
06:22:08 <elliott> Vorpal: the dietlibc developer
06:22:09 <elliott> Vorpal: newlib's Linux code is just... glibc's. Also it's primarily for standalone environments.
06:22:35 <elliott> Vorpal: uClibc is... well, let's put it this way: They use goddamn menuconfig. And if you don't compile your own gcc, your resulting programs segfault.
06:22:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, uClibc doesn't build with pcc. dietlibc does, with some patches that I have written.
06:22:57 <Vorpal> elliott, uh? do they? I used it with my normal system compiler
06:23:00 <elliott> I would not want to patch uClibc. I hear it is very gcc-specific.
06:23:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, it was the issue I had. But whatever.
06:23:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, dietlibc tends to produce leaner executables, I think. Admittedly it is less strictly compatible with stuff.
06:23:39 <elliott> I will have to see how much stuff breaks with it. I doubt X.Org will build with anything but gcc.
06:23:47 <Vorpal> elliott, how feature complete is dietlibc wrt posix?
06:24:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Quite; by default, it tells you off for using stdio and other functions (they bloat the binary), but I've disabled that. Some functions like system() are in a separate library because they suck.
06:24:26 <elliott> Vorpal: (But that's just a link to fix.)
06:25:03 <elliott> pikhq: Vorpal: It works! http://sprunge.us/WYFe
06:25:17 <zzo38> What might be good is having a Frama-C that will create reports that can be included into a Enhanced CWEB program. (You first run tangle, and then analysis, and then weave, and you will get the reports included in a new chapter of the program.)
06:25:31 <elliott> pikhq: Now I just need a cc(1) wrapper script that works like diet(1), except that it doesn't behave differently depending on where -Os is.
06:25:42 <elliott> pikhq: (diet's -Os switch appends a few extra arguments depending on your arch.0
06:25:58 <Vorpal> actually, make that "bbl, several hours"
06:26:53 <elliott> -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 4.4K Nov 12 06:24 hello
06:26:53 <elliott> -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 6.5K Nov 12 06:26 hello2
06:26:59 <elliott> pikhq: Second is gcc -Os, dynamically linked to glibc.
06:29:29 <elliott> pikhq: I just had the most perverse idea. Compile plan9port with this.
06:29:43 <fizzie> ((nargs+ellips)+!(nargs+ellips)) also occurs to me, but I think they're all messier than the conditional.
06:30:26 <pikhq> elliott: Please do.
06:31:03 <elliott> pikhq: How depressing: I just realised I'm spending all of this time and effort on Unix. Not even that, Linux.
06:31:09 <elliott> Maybe I'll shoot myself when all's said and done.
06:31:42 <pikhq> elliott: It's at least non-sucky Unix.
06:31:57 <pikhq> ... Okay, except for the kernel.
06:38:10 <elliott> pikhq: What does irritate me is that I'm going to have to wrap pcc.
06:38:25 <elliott> Why don't compilers support an easy way to compile them to automatically link to a static libc? *sniff*
06:59:16 <elliott> pikhq: Haw, plan9port does not like diet pcc :P
07:01:04 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.fefe.de/embutils/ almost coreutils
07:02:31 <elliott> pikhq: Can I poll you about my service manager's interface? Or should I shut up and code :p
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07:41:43 <fizzie> "Unlike the bitwise binary & operator, the && operator guarantees left-to-right evaluation; there is a sequence point after the evaluation of the first operand. If the first operand compares equal to 0, the second operand is not evaluated."
07:53:59 <zzo38> Can poker be combined with Magic: the Gathering in the following way: That whatever cards you have available to make up a poker hand are the cards you play with in your hand in Magic: the Gathering cards.
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08:03:11 <zzo38> fizzie: I have used things like (x+!x) in C codes, before (occasionally; not all the time).
08:04:49 <zzo38> Writing (x|!x) should also produce the same answer (I think), also (x^!x), and if you are using GNU C, also (x?:1)
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08:13:18 <elliott> The slowness of qemu-system-x86_64 is profound.
08:15:15 <elliott> I am staring at one gnome panel while waiting for the other to start.
08:54:22 <elliott> Gregor: http://beesbuzz.biz/art/web/statistically_significant_2.php What an average Dinosaur Comic.
09:57:13 <cheater99> i should just start using ie6 for all my linux web browsing
10:10:58 <elliott> Okay, seriously, does anyone know of a faster x86-64 emulator than qemu?
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10:30:10 <elliott> augur: ed is the best editor
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12:05:16 <ais523> I managed to do a rm * in my home directory last night (thought I was in /tmp...)
12:05:22 <ais523> luckily, I lost hardly anything, maybe about 15 minutes of work
12:05:36 <ais523> (an rm -r * would have been rather more destructive...)
12:06:57 <ais523> (and the reason I was doing an rm * of /tmp is that I'd just tarbombed it)
12:07:11 <ais523> (good thing I forgot the -rf, which would have been needed...)
12:08:18 <ais523> it's at times like this that I'm glad I'm using my crazy Emacs backup system, that's designed specifically to protect against accidental rm *s
12:08:26 <ais523> (it backs up all files I edit in a /different/ directory from the file itself)
12:08:52 <elliott> ais523: err, I do that too
12:08:58 <elliott> ais523: and many, many others
12:09:03 <elliott> ais523: but -- mostly to stop cluttering up directories.
12:09:14 <ais523> indeed, clutter in directories is what causes the rm * ~ typo in the first place
12:09:14 <elliott> ais523: (in fact, i'd say that in the "emacs community", >50% do that)
12:09:25 <ais523> really, it should be the default, backing up to a dotfile somewhere
12:09:34 <elliott> ais523: emacs isn't exactly one for sane defaults
12:09:43 <ais523> indeed (GNU-style indentation?)
12:09:46 <elliott> I've almost got a basic .emacs in muscle memory from reinstalling so many times
12:10:09 <elliott> (tool-bar-mode -1) (menu-bar-mode -1) (setq inhibit-splash-screen t) (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil)
12:10:21 <ais523> anyway, it turns out that the only actually important thing I lost in the rm * of my homedir, as far as I can tell, was the public key for accessing the wireless here
12:10:24 <elliott> *search "amit patel backups emacs", copy snippet in*
12:10:36 <elliott> ais523: probably retrievable/regeneratable?
12:10:36 <ais523> and I managed to download that over JANET roaming
12:10:55 <ais523> indeed, the issue is, I thought I couldn't connect to the Internet to download it without it
12:11:03 <elliott> ais523: uh, care to take bets on whether ubuntu 7.10 will recognise this fancy new ethernet card that supposedly older ubuntus didn't?
12:11:11 <elliott> In fact, it might handle my wifi but not ethernet. Wouldn't that be a thing.
12:11:18 <elliott> (And yes... I need 7.10. For Genera!)
12:11:21 <ais523> 7.10? that's pretty old
12:11:32 <elliott> ais523: every newer version has a too recent X.Org
12:11:38 <ais523> and as a result, I have no idea
12:11:47 <elliott> ais523: which breaks the hideous monstrosity of a hack^W^W^W^W^WOpenGenera port to Linux
12:11:57 <ais523> elliott: use an old X.Org as an application within Wayland!
12:12:00 <elliott> ais523: (it actually replaces the Alpha assembly-generating routines with routines that generate *C*...)
12:12:11 <elliott> ais523: hey now, i support the move to wayland :P
12:12:30 <ais523> I don't yet oppose it, but I don't have enough data to make up my mind
12:12:34 <elliott> I'd probably prefer Windows Display Server, the Linux port than X.
12:12:45 <elliott> (Also known as "1/3 of the Windows kernel, the Linux port".)
12:13:14 <ais523> Windows keep replacing their display code, though
12:13:19 <ais523> I still remember GDI32.DLL
12:13:25 <ais523> in fact, I still remember the 16-bit version
12:13:32 <ais523> but Microsoft have deprecated not only it, but most of its successors
12:13:40 <ais523> which is a pity, as I actually liked GDI
12:13:43 <elliott> ais523: afraid i have to reboot to get debian to realise i have a usb stick now...
12:13:56 <elliott> ais523: (not sure why it didn't just work, but)
12:14:05 <fizzie> The Global Defense Initiative.
12:14:22 <elliott> ais523: I'm even using my Kitten work partition to install 7.10 on! What blasphemy. (In other Kitten news you don't care about, I got a bootstrapped pcc/dietlibc -- pcc built with pcc, linked with dietlibc -- working today.)
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12:15:16 <ais523> hmm, why would you paste that four times? to make it easier to see?
12:17:12 <fizzie> Maybe one of us should paste the output of "banner 'hey elliott here is your paste'" on-channel to make it even more visible.
12:18:11 <ais523> I think elliott uses a proportional-width font for IRC (although I'm not sure), so it'd probably get munged
12:18:13 <fizzie> With -w 30 it's only 207 lines.
12:18:32 <ais523> arguably, though, he or she uses a fixed-width font for the logs
12:18:40 <fizzie> I somehow assumed he'd be looking for it in the logs, which, ... right.
12:19:42 <fizzie> The X marks the spot, you see.
12:19:58 <fizzie> Banner prints things sideways.
12:20:10 <ais523> it's not an X any direction I look at it
12:20:20 <fizzie> It has serifs and all.
12:20:28 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: ping <-- pong
12:20:32 <ais523> ah, serifs + proportional-width font is what's confusing me
12:21:09 <Vorpal> <ais523> it's at times like this that I'm glad I'm using my crazy Emacs backup system, that's designed specifically to protect against accidental rm *s <-- I use rm -I
12:21:20 <Vorpal> also shell function that wraps rm
12:21:25 <ais523> Vorpal: that likely doesn't help, I did rm * deliberately but in the wrong directory
12:21:30 <Vorpal> and examines the arguments for sanity
12:22:16 <fizzie> With -I you'd see the file names, though. Maybe seeing rm: remove regular file `important_stuff'? would help you notice sooner.
12:22:17 <Vorpal> for example it will do nothing if one of the files is a guard file in ~
12:22:26 <Vorpal> which is just to avoid rm * in the wrong dir
12:22:41 <Vorpal> also if an argument is ~ or $HOME
12:22:58 <ais523> -I doesn't show the filenames
12:23:16 <Vorpal> ais523, indeed, but -i is annoying when you have multiple files
12:23:34 <ais523> I do like the idea of a guard file which stops rm working; you could design it so you needed to use unlink instead, say
12:23:34 <Vorpal> anyway, the shell wrapper protects against the most common stupid mistakes
12:24:02 <Vorpal> ais523, well, it just examines the arguments. I could bypass it by calling /bin/rm rather than just rm for example
12:24:02 <fizzie> Something like http://www.nilfs.org/en/ would make your file system also mistake-proof.
12:24:11 <fizzie> I still haven't had the occasion to try that out.
12:24:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wanted to try it too
12:24:28 <Vorpal> and never got around to it
12:24:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, isn't it in the kernel nowdays?
12:25:20 <Vorpal> I wonder how good the performance is
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12:25:35 <fizzie> "NILFS was merged into the Linux kernel 2.6.30. -- NILFS2 is available in Ubuntu 9.10 or later (karmic, lucid)."
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12:26:33 <fizzie> There's that one year-old benchmark article.
12:26:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm is nilfs2 not in vanilla?
12:27:00 <Vorpal> assuming they are different
12:27:12 <fizzie> They're the same thing in that context.
12:27:36 <fizzie> Just two different snippets of the page, one talking about where the tools and such are packaged, the other about the file system.
12:28:03 <Vorpal> http://www.nilfs.org/en/current_status.html <-- fsck on todo list
12:28:49 <Vorpal> I think I'll stay with my mix of ext4 and jfs partitions for now.
12:32:06 <fizzie> Can't seem to find any recent benchmarks. I just like the idea of continuous-snapshotting.
12:34:31 <fizzie> Our work /home share has /home/.snapshot/hourly.0 .. hourly.3, nightly.0 .. nightly.3 and weekly.0, weekly.1 which provide complete snapshots of everyone's ~ at the times you'd expect from the names.
12:35:37 <fizzie> It's not exactly continuous snapshotting, but probably good enough to catch many mistaken deletions, unless you're unlucky enough to have both made and deleted the stuff within the same one-hour period.
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13:08:53 <ais523> a hidden file in /home is an interesting way to violate the FHS
13:08:59 <ais523> shouldn't it technically be in /var?
13:10:48 <fizzie> Possibly, but I think due to technomagical reasons it needs to be in the same NFS share, which is mounted at /home.
13:11:11 <fizzie> And, well; our /home is a symlink to /m/fs/home anyway.
13:11:43 <fizzie> What is even stranger is that /home/.directory is a symlink to /etc/kubuntu-default-settings/directory-home.
13:11:49 <fizzie> I have no clue what that's about.
13:12:39 <fizzie> So I guess it's some sort of desktop environment magic.
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13:22:57 <elliott> 04:28:49 <Vorpal> I think I'll stay with my mix of ext4 and jfs partitions for now.
13:24:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Genera update: qemu-system-x86_64 is slower than you can possibly imagine -- and yes, slower than that. Utterly unworkable; even booting was a five-minute operation and even starting an xterm in a Xephyr on the root machine was way too slow.
13:24:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Then tried doing it as a chroot, ended up changing my system hostname and starting nfs, and on top of that swap4 didn't work so fuck that.
13:24:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Now I'm going to install Ubuntu 7.10 literally onto another partition.
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13:37:02 <Vorpal> <elliott> weren't you an xfs user? <-- I use xfs on some partitions. Those with few, but huge, files. So for the partition with disk images basically
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14:35:35 <elliott> Indeed, the ethernet driver was added in karmic. *sigh*
14:35:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Are you *sure* Genera doesn't work with a more recent X? Anyway, wouldn't it be easier just to install Gutsy's X package onto Maverick?
14:39:32 <elliott> fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie
14:44:01 <Ilari> Uh, oh: "I think I’m going to write a post about the fact that Sprint allocated around 4 million v4 addresses yesterday." --ipv4depletion
14:44:16 <elliott> Ilari: Looks like the bank run has begun!
14:44:36 <Ilari> If it begins in APNIC region...
14:45:41 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm going to try this whole wazoo with 10.10 and an old X package.
14:46:10 <fizzie> You could get double the resolution with U+2596..259F, but that'd lose the shading.
14:47:25 <yorick> ooh they're playing space invaders
14:47:49 <fizzie> It's a bit elongated with this font: it's not exactly a rectangular block.
14:48:54 <fizzie> The pixels should be square-ish, yes, I think. I just copied them directly to the quadrant-blocks, which aren't.
14:49:12 * yorick is implementing printf in c
14:49:46 <elliott> What a strange language to implement printf in.
14:49:59 <yorick> elliott: true, but I'm wondering what else
14:50:15 <Ilari> To change the "endgame" with IANA allocations, ARIN (which will probably request&get 2 blocks soon), APNIC or RIPE would have to allocate so fast that they can get 2x2 blocks before IANA runs out...
14:50:28 <elliott> yorick: no, as in, please restate so i can understand that
14:50:41 <yorick> elliott: I have myself a set of "asm, C, C++"
14:51:05 <elliott> why would you ever touch c++
14:51:06 <yorick> I can pick any (combination) of those to write a printf function
14:51:11 <elliott> yorick: do printf in haskell!
14:51:24 <elliott> yorick: yes, that's a reason not to use C++ ever, correct
14:51:38 <yorick> I rather like templates
14:51:53 <yorick> (especially when they can do the world some good compile-time instead of runtime)
14:52:16 <Ilari> Actually, severe run on the bank scenario on ARIN could force second set of allocations before IANA pool runs out, changing the endgame.
14:52:54 <elliott> yorick: c++ makes the amount of patience and energy you have left to do anything after compiling shoot itself
14:53:56 <yorick> elliott: most of the time, the only thing I actually have to do after compiling is see if it still boots and else fix it
14:54:27 <yorick> they're like the C preprocessor
14:54:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You know what a generic is?
14:54:46 <yorick> but much more C++-y (and they have recursion :))
14:54:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, in e.g. Java.
14:54:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: List<T> is a list of Ts.
14:55:10 <Phantom_Hoover> yorick, ah, so they're trying to solve a problem Lisp solved 50 years ago.
14:55:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You know what a typeclass is? Imagine a feature that makes doing what generics do (simple parameterised typed) a pain in the ass, and not letting you do any useful typeclass stuff, but *yes* letting you abuse it as the most tarpitty thing ever.
14:55:25 <yorick> http://pastebin.com/UF0Ci5F6
14:55:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also it's turing-complete and makes compile times go up faster than ... uh ... a really quickly-erected structure.
14:57:03 <elliott> I suppose some people might call it that.
14:57:05 <elliott> <yorick> http://pastebin.com/UF0Ci5F6
14:57:28 <elliott> as we can see by this, templates are a verbose, strangely-arbitrarily-limited functional language, masquerading as a simple generics system.
14:57:41 <elliott> not laughing at this too much produces Boost
14:58:53 <Phantom_Hoover> So it is basically just a crippled, awful and inelegant version of Lisp's macros?
14:59:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It can't transform code. So no.
14:59:22 <elliott> yorick: Yes crippled (you can't do SKI calculus).
15:00:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, its functionality is entirely a subset of macros, though?
15:00:14 <elliott> that question makes no sense
15:00:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, does it do anything in C++ which Lisp can't do with macros?
15:01:12 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: Are you *sure* Genera doesn't work with a more recent X? Anyway, wouldn't it be easier just to install Gutsy's X package onto Maverick? <-- pretty sure. Could work with some in between the two I tried (that old ubuntu version I mentioned in the "guide" and the X version in the next ubuntu release after that)
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15:01:25 <Phantom_Hoover> The answer is obviously going to be no, since you can do _everything_ with macros, but anyway...
15:01:26 <elliott> Vorpal: is it the server or the libs that is the issue?
15:02:23 <Vorpal> elliott, unknown. I didn't investigate it further than noticing that googling indicated it was X related, and that fitted with the error message, which was some X message (forgot which)
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15:09:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, xkcd is hiatusing. I'm not sure whether I'm allowed to be happy.
15:10:28 <elliott> Considering there's a family illness and also nobody's forcing you to read xkcd, I think not.
15:15:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The xkcdsucks people are all going "THANK GOD NO XKCD", but as is well-established they are all (a) douchebags and (b) morons.
15:28:05 <Gregor> Also, (d) fluffy puppies.
15:32:24 <Gregor> (We don't know what (c) is yet)
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15:37:18 <Sgeo> I was about to confusedly ask something along the lines of "Is the amount of infinite sets of rationals uncountably infinite somehow? Because if not, I don't see how reals defined in terms of Dedekind cuts are uncountably infinite"
15:37:46 <Sgeo> But then, I _think_ the diagonalization thingy says that there is an uncountably infinite amount of those sets
15:37:50 <Sgeo> Which is head-breaking
15:39:30 <oklopol> Sgeo: the amount of infinite subsets of rational numbers is uncountable
15:40:03 <Sgeo> That seems ... unintuitive, I guess
15:40:12 <Sgeo> But intuition counts for nothing, really
15:40:19 <oklopol> well there's an uncountable number of subsets of integers
15:41:01 <cheater99> look at all numbers of the form 0\.[0-1]+
15:41:13 <cheater99> suppose they're countable, so line them up
15:41:15 <oklopol> or just do diagonalization right away, it's easier than for reals
15:41:47 <oklopol> in fact in general, it's easy to show that for any set S, there is no surjection S -> 2^S
15:41:52 <cheater99> now, you can define a new number, which flips 0 to 1 and 1 to 0 on the nth digit of the nth number.
15:42:13 <elliott> <oklopol> in fact in general, it's easy to show that for any set S, there is no surjection S -> 2^S
15:42:16 <elliott> either i'm tired or wrong way around
15:43:07 <cheater99> surjection means the function values are the whole of the codomain
15:43:20 <elliott> oklopol: oh right my brain ignored "surjection"
15:43:25 <elliott> kinda important part of the sentence
15:43:38 <oklopol> well there's a function the other way around too
15:43:42 <Sgeo> According to my flawed understanding of Wikipedia, the left can be larger than the right in a surjection
15:43:45 <elliott> oklopol: what i saw: "set S is no S -> 2^S"
15:43:53 <elliott> oklopol: now you're fucking with me
15:43:55 <elliott> or i just don't understand you
15:44:15 <cheater99> Sgeo: yes. but can't be of smaller cardinality.
15:44:28 <oklopol> elliott: you can take a function that takes everything to s \in S, for some element s in S
15:44:39 <oklopol> maybe you don't know what a function is?
15:44:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, a function f : A → B is surjective iff forall x:B, exists y:A, f y = x.
15:45:10 <oklopol> a function from X to Y is a subset Z of XxY such that for each x \in X there is exactly one y \in Y such that (x, y) \in Z
15:45:18 <elliott> oklopol: i know what a function is :p
15:45:36 <cheater99> surjection is >=, injection is =<.
15:45:45 <Sgeo> How does anyone remember all the jections?
15:46:03 <cheater99> there's only surjection, injection, bijection.
15:46:11 <oklopol> and in english, onto is a synonym for surjection
15:46:15 <cheater99> you call surjections "functions onto"
15:46:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Injection is basically the same as surjection except the other way around.
15:46:43 <oklopol> injections are also called one-to-one
15:46:58 <oklopol> injection = at most one preimage
15:47:03 <oklopol> surjection = at least one preimage
15:47:22 <Sgeo> Isn't it bijection that's 1 to 1?
15:47:30 <oklopol> Sgeo: it's a confusing name, yes
15:47:43 <oklopol> bijections are often called "one-to-one correspondence"
15:47:57 <Sgeo> So what was "<oklopol> injections are also called one-to-one" about?
15:47:57 <oklopol> but for some reason one-to-one just means injection
15:48:39 <Sgeo> If something is both a surjection and an injection, is it a bijection?
15:48:57 <oklopol> sur = at least one preimage, inj = at most one, bij = one
15:49:50 <cheater99> now once you get to the definition of the continuous function
15:49:56 <elliott> they should be called heterojections, homojections and bijections really
15:49:58 <elliott> that'd be easier to remember
15:50:11 <cheater99> basically during undergrad you learn 2 new definitions of continuous functions per year
15:50:21 <oklopol> continuous functions have 1 definition
15:51:03 <oklopol> what are there besides the topological one?
15:51:15 <oklopol> maybe i'm just not aware of others
15:51:28 <oklopol> oh there are multiple characterizations, yes
15:51:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know; I know the one for functions and derivatives and stuff is the same.
15:52:04 <oklopol> i don't know what cauchy is tho, do you mean limit's image is images' limit
15:52:08 <cheater99> epsilon-delta, sequence-based, topology, algebraic (element of ...), category theory
15:52:39 <oklopol> yeah i don't know what the category theory definition is
15:52:48 <oklopol> epsilon delta is topological continuity
15:53:16 <cheater99> it's just the first few i came up with
15:53:28 <oklopol> okay, it's the characterization that uses the base of the topology instead of arbitrary open sets
15:53:40 <Sgeo> Does OpenCourseWare have good math stuff?
15:53:49 <oklopol> what is the algebraic definition? what's the category theoretical one?
15:54:21 <cheater99> the algebraic definition says that a function is continuous if it's an element of ContinuousFunctions
15:55:11 <oklopol> well right, that's a different definition :D
15:55:29 <oklopol> "a function is continuous if we call it continuous"
15:55:39 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that math _wouldn't_ be a good universal language for talking to aliens
15:55:49 <Sgeo> They'd almost certainly use different axioms than we do
15:55:53 <cheater99> http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funkcja_ci%C4%85g%C5%82a#Przestrze.C5.84_funkcji_ci.C4.85g.C5.82ych
15:55:55 <Gregor> lawl, Firefox mobile beta requires 32MB internal storage :P
15:56:19 <cheater99> you can for example define L_n(X, Y) and just go from there to define C(X, Y)
15:56:25 <oklopol> wait, actually the sequence definition is only equivalent in metric spaces
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15:56:38 <cheater99> also there's another definition which talks about that sup f(x) = f(sup x) or something like that
15:57:03 <oklopol> those are characterizations, they aren't "different definitions"
15:57:06 <cheater99> for this you just need an order and that's it
15:57:18 <cheater99> they are different definitions which can be shown to be equivalent
15:57:21 <oklopol> yeah f(closure of G) \subset closure of f(G)
15:57:41 <cheater99> historically they were not known to be equivalent
16:02:24 <oklopol> so, let S be a set, and consider a surjection f: S -> 2^S, take the set T = {s \in S | s \not\in f(s) }, and let f(t) = T for some t, then t \in T => t \not\in f(t) = T; and t \not\in T => t \in T, so in fact there can't be such an f
16:02:36 <oklopol> a bit confusing linearized like that
16:04:22 <oklopol> cheater99: it's just i prefer to say "different characterizations" once we know they're the same thing, because when new mathematics happens, there will be multiple actually different definitions for the same intuitive concept, until a consistent naming scheme appears (if it ever does)
16:04:50 <oklopol> but, maybe it should've been clear what you meant
16:05:19 <oklopol> it's just it could be that that topological definition was different from the one for metric spaces, or the epsilon delta one, but because it's not, you really don't have to remember but one definition.
16:07:14 <oklopol> so what about f : 2^S -> S be an injection
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16:10:47 <oklopol> actually Phantom_Hoover's "injection is a reversed surjection" is the answer
16:11:41 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, FWIW, the spherical geometry did exactly what oerjan predicted.
16:12:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: did they listen?
16:12:16 <Sgeo> What did oerjan predict? And is this spherical geometry of a CA?
16:12:21 <Sgeo> And who is "they"?
16:12:22 <oklopol> anyway how can anyone think continuity is confusing, when there's the roughly as important concept of compactness lying around
16:12:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what did they say
16:12:53 <elliott> "A complete 3620 system weighs about 200 lbs when packed for shipping."
16:12:56 <oklopol> can't make a planar CA spherical?
16:13:25 <elliott> Psht, he's trying to sell me the more expensive and Symbolics-keyboard-lacking MacIvory.
16:14:25 <oklopol> well, i don't really care a shit anyway
16:14:31 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, in the sense that you need to have a point at which the symmetry breaks down.
16:15:00 <oklopol> i'm not smart enough for an explanation that vague
16:15:12 <oklopol> when are two CA's equivalent?
16:17:17 <oklopol> conjugacy is when you take a homeomorphism between the spaces that commutes with the CA functions on both sides
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16:17:33 <oklopol> highly intuitive definition of sameness don't you think
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16:17:43 <elliott> Now why am I so terrible at talking to salesmen?
16:17:58 <oklopol> do you always end up buying them
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16:21:52 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, when you get back: if you have Life on a sphere, gliders crash at some points; the whole space isn't isotropic.
16:22:37 <zzo38> I do not know what homeomorphism is, though
16:23:58 <Gregor> It's a morphism that likes other morphisms.
16:24:24 <cheater99> oklopol: no, they're different definitions, because their application doesn't overlap
16:24:34 <cheater99> the topological definition doesn't work on ALL ordered sets
16:24:45 <cheater99> and the ordered sets definition doesn't work in ALL topological spaces
16:24:55 <cheater99> there are sets on which those definitions are equivalent
16:25:12 <cheater99> but that intersection is of measure zero
16:37:14 <oklopol> cheater99: oh cool, what's the ordered set definition
16:37:35 <oklopol> of course they are different definitions by any definition of definition if they're not equivalent
16:37:52 <oklopol> erm that always works with the order topology, doesn't it?
16:37:59 <oklopol> if it doesn't, okay, you win
16:38:54 <oklopol> just sup, not inf? then i'd guess it's continuity w.r.t. half interval topology
16:40:02 <oklopol> if there seriously is a concept of continuity that isn't subsumed by the topological one (and isn't a ridiculous definition like your algebraic one), then my life will change completely.
16:40:36 <cheater99> you just have to find something you're good at, y'know?
16:41:56 <oklopol> so what's the sup f(X) = f(sup X) def exactly, do we assume sups always exist, do we assume a chain?
16:42:55 <oklopol> good to know, then maybe you'll be able to answer
16:43:28 <cheater99> by saying that we have a total order.
16:47:56 <zzo38> Is there a style of static analysis for C programs which is suitable for literate programming?
16:48:07 <oklopol> doesn't directed just mean the sup of two elements exists?
16:49:50 <oklopol> well seems it just requires *an* upper bound, in any case this is trivially true if you have total order
16:53:07 <oklopol> oh you had the wrong definition for total order
16:53:09 <cheater99> a supremum is not "an" upper bound
16:53:23 <oklopol> yeah but apparently directed sets don't need there to be a minimal one
16:53:40 <cheater99> it's not like i care about this conversation >_>
16:53:45 <oklopol> you had the wrong definition = you associated the word total order to something other than what it usually means
16:54:21 * cheater99 runs out of the room crying and slamming the door!
16:54:55 <cheater99> i was j/k but u were like, totally unfriendly, man.
16:55:46 * Sgeo sneezes on chat
16:57:17 <Gregor> cheater99: You misinterpreted him.
16:57:22 <Gregor> cheater99: He was propositioning you.
16:57:25 <Gregor> cheater99: Not trying to insult you.
16:57:44 <cheater99> hmmm... that puts a different twist on the whole conversation.
16:58:45 <oklopol> i was insulting cheater99?
16:58:53 <oklopol> sorry, that was not the intention :D
16:59:08 <oklopol> what did he do to get me to insult him?
16:59:36 <oklopol> hmm maybe the wrong definition thing
17:04:28 <zzo38> what I mean is if it can create the reports in a Enhanced CWEB include file (written with TeX codes) and then can be included into your program as an additional chapter (using the @i command).
17:09:58 <oklopol> "<cheater99> i was j/k but u were like, totally unfriendly, man." i don't think i was
17:11:49 <oklopol> well, sorry again then; does it say on wp that the order thing is a different definition?
17:11:58 <oklopol> that sounds like a very hard thing to prove
17:12:15 <oklopol> that there is no topology in which the continuous functions are the order-continuous functions
17:13:49 <oklopol> (not that i looked very hard)
17:17:08 <Sgeo> http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2010/11/its-life---only-much-much-bigger.html
17:17:37 <Sgeo> From 0:57-1:10
17:17:50 <Sgeo> Am I the only one who sees something blatently impossible happening?
17:19:07 <Sgeo> A block disintegrates for no reason
17:21:15 <oklopol> they even say on the vid that occasionally the sensor reads a ghost's presence
17:22:06 <Sgeo> Hmm, good point
17:22:09 <Sgeo> Nevermind then
17:22:21 <Sgeo> well, they said "random mutation"
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17:23:08 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit).
17:23:47 <Sgeo> Oh come on, Freenode doesn't show quit messages?
17:24:22 <oklopol> maybe you need to be identified
17:24:37 <Sgeo> -NickServ- Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net has just authenticated as you (SgeoBot)
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17:40:28 <elliott> Vorpal: now watch as I perform the impossible!
17:40:56 -!- elliott has left (?).
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17:41:25 <elliott> also, I am doing it from Ubuntu Netbook Edition (installed with alternative CD), because I defy logic
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17:49:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, when does Fine Structure get a coherent interchapter narrative?
17:50:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Soon enough. Bear with it; it's well worth it.
17:50:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Believe me that the reason it is not connected at first is not due to his incompetence.
17:50:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I wasn't saying it was; just that it's a bit hard on the brain.
17:50:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, it muddled me a bit too. But then it all starts making sense. :P
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17:54:11 <Naamah1> Hey, thanks for the welcome!
17:54:58 <Naamah1> It could be a silly question, but how can I change my username? : )
17:55:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Pingpingping, what is an acceptable date and time format?
17:55:35 -!- Naamah1 has changed nick to Adramelech.
17:55:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That is, the Symbolics Lisp Operating System.
17:56:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It is currently asking me for a date and time.
17:56:17 -!- Adramelech has changed nick to Baal_Zebel.
17:56:24 <Phantom_Hoover> The best date and time format is objectively YYYY:MM:DD HH:MM:SS
17:56:58 <elliott> Going to reboot into non-netbook, this is too irritating.
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17:58:41 <Sgeo> elliott, what's irritating about it?
17:58:46 <Sgeo> I was considering installing it today
17:59:19 <elliott> Sgeo: The dock at the side likes to move the icons around when you click an icon in any way that's even slightly like a drag. For some reason the icons tilt when the dock fills up in a way that I cannot figure out what it is.
17:59:34 <elliott> Sgeo: Additionally, the bar on the left is so large that screen real estate feels *significantly* reduced.
17:59:47 <elliott> Sgeo: Also, it is difficult to, say, bring a file system browser on /. There is no facility to do this.
17:59:53 <elliott> You have to open a USB stick, say, and go from there.
18:00:05 <Sgeo> That makes... no sense
18:00:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, maybe.
18:00:11 <elliott> Sgeo: The built-in browser looks at ~ only.
18:00:31 <Sgeo> Ctrl-L doesn't bring up anything useful in the browser?
18:00:39 <elliott> Sgeo: I doubt it. I didn't try.
18:01:45 <Sgeo> "If you find you need more direct access to your file system, click the folder icon to open that folder in Nautilus."
18:01:53 * Sgeo still wants to try it
18:01:58 <elliott> Sgeo: That worked in *old* Netbook Edition.
18:02:05 <elliott> It manifestly doesn't in 10.10.
18:02:38 <Sgeo> Unetbootin should be fine, right?
18:02:44 * Sgeo doesn't exactly have a CD burner
18:04:27 <oklopol> cheater99: i couldn't prove it so checked on wp, the sup definition is subsumed by the topological one according to the article
18:05:00 <oklopol> so guess i can continue living my life for now
18:08:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Have you ever had this time issue>
18:08:08 <elliott> OH WAIT I need to enable it in inetd don't I
18:09:31 <oklopol> also maybe the reason i couldn't prove it was it's not the [a, b) topology :D
18:09:33 <Sgeo> 21min to download the .iso?
18:09:38 -!- Gregor has set topic: Topic revoked by the Spirit of OER-JAN. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:09:55 <Sgeo> That's incredibly fast
18:10:05 <elliott> Sgeo: you have a strange definition of fast ...
18:10:11 * Sgeo has a sad Internet connection
18:10:38 * Sgeo vaguely wonders if it's the ISP or the router or the fact that I'm using the wifi
18:10:45 <Sgeo> Instead of wired
18:13:45 * Sgeo is tempted to try it
18:14:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:14:47 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that I, for one, don't just restrict myself to web browsing
18:15:48 <Sgeo> Dear Chrome: I DID NOT MEAN TO CLICK CANCEL
18:16:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:16:57 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: Have you ever had this time issue> <--- ?
18:17:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:17:26 <Vorpal> <elliott> OH WAIT I need to enable it in inetd don't I <-- well that is why it was mentioned in the guide iirc?
18:18:25 <elliott> Vorpal: you install xinetd and never mention it again
18:18:37 <Vorpal> elliott, hum, You need to enable daytime and such
18:18:44 <elliott> daytime, time, echo (why not)
18:19:05 <elliott> Vorpal: ok, I don't get an XIO error; now I get the big ol' Genera window coming up, but solid white; it POSTs ok, says the log. It traps my keyboard and mouse and all I can do is kill -9 it (kill doesn't work) from a console.
18:19:26 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
18:19:45 <SgeoN1> Unebootin bootloader is being very broken
18:20:05 <SgeoN1> It counts down the automatic boot... then goes back up to 10
18:20:10 <elliott> Vorpal: still, no trace of XIO or anything
18:20:26 <Vorpal> elliott, well, XIO was in the terminal you ran it from iirc
18:20:33 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, are you using new X?
18:20:41 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, that's sort of the point
18:20:52 <Vorpal> then: no clue, you are on your own. Tell me if you manage though
18:20:54 <elliott> Vorpal: The XIO error *definitely* no longer happens. Instead, we get an exciting new problem.
18:21:09 <elliott> Vorpal: HOW-EVER. It *did* manage to bug me for a date and time when I didn't have xinetd.
18:21:17 <elliott> This then dropped me into a debugger and I could evaluate Lisp expressions.
18:21:21 <elliott> This was with the fonts and everything.
18:21:24 <elliott> So it *is* basically working.
18:21:40 <Vorpal> elliott, well tell me when you get it actually working
18:21:50 <elliott> Vorpal: i expect pay-quality support
18:22:21 <elliott> Vorpal: (in return you can have remote access to my 3620 when i get it)
18:22:30 <elliott> Vorpal: (even if DKS is trying to make me buy a macivory instead)
18:22:47 <elliott> Vorpal: fucking thing doesn't even come with a symbolics keyboard
18:22:47 <Vorpal> in other news I implemented a way to prevent my mine carts from running away when I'm exiting them at the stations.
18:23:16 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I have no idea what the issue is...
18:25:17 <SgeoN1> Dear computer: Acknowledge my USB Drive!
18:25:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Well then. Time to transplant Gutsy packages onto Maverick!
18:26:14 <SgeoN1> I think this USB drive is broken. Drive feels like the wrong word
18:27:41 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what's so great about the Symbolics keyboards?
18:28:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/IO/index.html
18:28:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hyper Super Meta Shift Control.
18:28:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It was and is THE keyboard.
18:29:20 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, OK, more specifically, what about it is superior to the common or garden European keyboard?
18:29:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Would you plug a USB keyboard into a Commodore 64? A ZX Spectrum?
18:29:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Would you, say, plug, into an Amiga from the glory days, into a 30" LCD?
18:30:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's *awesome*.
18:30:29 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you're being like Sgeo, but with keyboards rather than virtual worlds.
18:30:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, you just don't realise how awesome Lisp Machines were.
18:31:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Even Stanislav, who was trying to get the console hooked up to an LCD and USB mouse (non-trivial), was adamant about keeping the keyboard.
18:31:55 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I have actually heard *reasons* for the Lisp machines being awesome.
18:32:13 <oklopol> yeah unlike you elliott, you stupid noob
18:32:14 <Gregor> For instance, they taste like butterflies.
18:32:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, well, it's nice, but it's hardly a vital feature.
18:33:28 <SgeoN1> Unetbootin is simply not installing xPUD for some reason
18:36:34 <SgeoN1> I think it loves me. It's trying to protect me from xPUD
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18:37:57 <elliott> Vorpal: [[Your password file needs to use "unix crypt" style passwords instead of the now-common md5 passwords. On Ubuntu with the default installation I use, this is configured in the file /etc/pam.d/common-password by commenting out the string "md5":
18:38:01 <elliott> $ grep md5 /etc/pam.d/common-password password required pam_unix.so nullok obscure min=4 max=8 # md5]]
18:38:03 <elliott> Vorpal: That wasn't in your guide :p
18:38:37 <elliott> 1. The world images that are included in the snap3 and 4 releases won't boot if the system date is after ~2000! y2k thing??
18:39:14 <elliott> # the default is Unix crypt. Prior releases used the option "md5".
18:39:23 <SgeoN1> There is something utterly demented about its defaults for the trackpad
18:39:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
18:40:13 <SgeoN1> Why is Facebook app fullscreen on me? How do I get back to the menu?
18:40:36 <SgeoN1> I am trapped in Facebook
18:41:31 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.cliki.net/Linux%20VLM%20workarounds genera without root
18:42:05 <SgeoN1> I officially loathe xPUD
18:42:48 <elliott> Now that we know TUN is avaible, grant full local access to the TUN device:
18:42:52 <elliott> $ sudo iptables -A INPUT -i tun+ -j ACCEPT
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18:48:44 <SgeoN1> xPUD had a list of web apps. I clicked Facebook. It went fullscreen, with no way to get out. I bothered to log in, and it didn't work
18:49:13 * SgeoN1 suddenly wonders if xPUD is an elaborate phishing scheme
18:50:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: a stupid linux-based os built around firefox.
18:52:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I am so close to this: http://collison.ie/img/genera.png
18:53:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well, the genera bit.
18:54:02 <Phantom_Hoover> It still boggles me that after well over a decade of effort, noöne has resurrected the Lisp Machines.
18:54:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: because nobody wants lisp machines apart from the people who had lisp machines, and Symbolics, in their arrogance, destroyed the market and then, well, what can you do?
18:54:37 <elliott> and then everyone who used them moved on.
18:54:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: to Unix. And hated it. In fact the UNIX-HATERS list was founded a few days after a Lisp Machine user was forced to switch to a Sun box.
18:55:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You know what Unixes like SunOS were like in the 80s?
18:56:41 <SgeoN1> Anything like switching from a MOO to a MUSH?
18:56:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just seeing that title: read more Hughes to cleanse your brain. Ommmm.
18:57:21 <elliott> Ben Green apparently earned this award four years ago when it was given for an achievement he helped obtain, but giving the Fields Medal to him now might dim the star of Obama-supporter Terence Tao, making Tao less effective politically.
18:57:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I'm up to the Man Who Can Pass Through Things.
18:57:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wow, what a chapter naming opportunity Sam missed there.
18:57:50 <elliott> THE MAN WHO CAN PASS THROUGH THINGS
18:58:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Indistinguishable from magic", right?
18:59:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Seth Gold was an ordinary basement dweller, until he was torn about by ActiveWorlds' destruction, when he became.... THE MAN WHO CAN PASS THROUGH THINGS
19:02:01 <elliott> I need to ditch this laptop for a real computer.
19:04:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Tell me. Why are AMD processors terrible?
19:07:10 <SgeoN1> My dad was uneasy about buying this laptop because of AMD
19:07:45 <elliott> SgeoN1: I will never say a bad word about you ever again if you stop listening to every damn thing your dad says even when he clearly has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. Or hell, I'll compromise, just don't mention it.
19:09:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: NOW WATCH ME FLAIL AS I TRY AND FIND AN AMD PROCESSOR THAT (1) HAS DECENT PERFORMANCE AND (2) HAS LOW ENOUGH THERMAL SPECS THAT I CAN GET IT IN A FANLESS SYSTEM
19:10:36 <oklopol> my dad says you shouldn't move the mouse when the computer is starting because... well i don't really know why but you shouldn't.
19:10:44 <oklopol> he was a programmer for like 15 years
19:10:47 <elliott> oklopol: wise words, wise words
19:10:57 <elliott> oklopol: it could disturb the magnetics
19:11:22 <oklopol> or when pretty much anything is happening, like you're installing something, you can't touch the computer
19:11:27 <oklopol> the installation might fuck up
19:11:47 <elliott> oklopol: well if it's processing your mouse movements and rendering to the screen it can't write to the disk at the same time
19:11:56 <elliott> so it might miss out bits, with obvious consequences
19:12:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps it's because they didn't sell their souls to the devil so he would suck the heat out of the processors.
19:13:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They're a lot hotter and a lot more power consuming than *faster* Intel processors.
19:14:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, that does suggest that Satan is being used as Intel's cooling system.
19:16:31 <Vorpal> <oklopol> or when pretty much anything is happening, like you're installing something, you can't touch the computer <-- that makes no sense
19:17:11 <Vorpal> oklopol, moving the mouse around should be harmless
19:17:24 <oklopol> really?? i'll tell him as soon as i can
19:17:33 <Vorpal> at least on sane systems
19:17:51 <Vorpal> of course, on classic mac os, if you downloaded something then moving your mouse would slow down the download
19:18:04 <Vorpal> that was on a performa
19:18:40 <Vorpal> but that hardly applies to a modern computer
19:18:49 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, Fine Structure blind guess: are Anne Poole and the Man Who Can Pass Through Things both due to superposition of stuff?
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19:21:15 <oklopol> it surprises me greatly that conservapedia has an article on infinity, i was pretty sure they were all finitists
19:21:20 <Phantom_Hoover> The fact that the Man Who Can Pass Through Things can See Through Things as well.
19:21:44 <oklopol> 1/0 NO! This isn't allowed! Infinity is not a number, and division by zero is illegal!
19:22:35 <oklopol> it's a number if you call it a number, by the mathemtical definition of being something
19:22:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: elliott, Fine Structure blind guess: are Anne Poole and the Man Who Can Pass Through Things both due to superposition of stuff?
19:23:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But you should pay more attention to names.
19:23:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hint: Crushed Underground.
19:23:33 <oklopol> infinity is a number on the extended real line, i'm not sure nonstandard analysis really has a number called infinity, although the hyperreals have many numbers that are bigger than any real
19:23:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just click it, and look for a name.
19:23:44 <Phantom_Hoover> "The Man Who Can Pass Through Things" is far too cool a name to bother correcting.
19:24:06 <Gregor> The Man Who Can Pass Gas Through Things
19:24:15 <elliott> oklopol: it surprises me greatly that conservapedia has an article on infinity, i was pretty sure they were all finitists
19:24:51 <oklopol> "In measure theory, one sometimes defines the "extended reals", allowing plus and minus infinity to be considered to be numbers, but this is a special construction, which makes certain arithmetical operations impossible. It can't be done in general"
19:24:55 <oklopol> "it can't be done in general"
19:25:20 <Vorpal> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: elliott, Fine Structure blind guess: are Anne Poole and the Man Who Can Pass Through Things both due to superposition of stuff? <-- the latter seems a rather awkward name if you have to use it more than once or twice on a single page :P
19:25:24 <oklopol> this may be funnier than finitism
19:25:33 <Vorpal> (book page size block if not in such a format)
19:25:34 <Gregor> http://www.conservapedia.com/Special:Random <-- how to kill yourself
19:25:55 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN1 being the Man Who Can See Through Things as well would be too icky to consider.
19:25:57 <elliott> oklopol: finitism is boring cuz they usually accept the naturals imo
19:26:13 <elliott> oklopol: ultrafinitism is great because you can basically deduce that there's only one of anything, if you apply ultrafinitism to ultrafinitism
19:26:37 <Gregor> "The Conservative Bible Project is a project utilizing the "best of the public" to render God's word into modern English without liberal translation distortions." HOW WAS I UNAWARE OF THIS X-D
19:26:56 <elliott> Gregor: They get rid of comrade because it's communist
19:26:57 <Gregor> I didn't claim it wasn't.
19:27:10 <oklopol> they believe in diagonalization too
19:27:20 <elliott> oklopol: but not relativity
19:27:28 <elliott> oklopol: yes, they link it to moral relativity
19:27:40 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.conservapedia.com/Counterexamples_to_Relativity
19:27:43 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, they said that Jesus telling his disciples to cast their nets to the right of the boat is an endorsement of conservatism.
19:27:56 <elliott> oklopol: [[# In Genesis 1:6-8, we are told that one of God's first creations was a firmament in the heavens. This likely refers to the creation of the luminiferous aether.]]
19:28:02 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, those counterexamples include Jesus doing action at a distance.
19:28:05 <elliott> oklopol: that's gotta be a troll :)
19:28:17 <elliott> oklopol: "Liberal pseudoscience: Black holes • Dark matter • Moral relativism • Wormholes"
19:28:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Since the writers of the New Testament were clearly carefully checking to see if Jesus' miracles obeyed causality.
19:29:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: of course, god is very careful
19:29:03 <pikhq> Luminiferous æther. Seriously. That's astoundingly retarded.
19:29:12 <elliott> pikhq: It's 101% certain a troll, that one.
19:29:45 <elliott> pikhq: Why isn't there a six-core processor with a TDP of around 100W, I ask you.
19:29:46 <SgeoN1> Dear CMOS: Please try to retain settings that I set.
19:29:46 <Vorpal> <elliott> oklopol: ultrafinitism is great because you can basically deduce that there's only one of anything, if you apply ultrafinitism to ultrafinitism <-- hm.... so lets see... that means there are only one "thing". That must be the universe. Which must be an atomic entity (in the sense "can't be divided"). Since if we could divide it, there would be multiple things.
19:30:04 <elliott> Vorpal: You must be SO HIGH right now.
19:30:14 <elliott> "Duude... what if the universe is only one thing and it can't be divided..."
19:30:15 <oklopol> "7.The universe shortly after its creation, when quantum effects dominated and contradicted Relativity. "
19:30:35 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I didn't sleep well last night
19:30:36 <elliott> oklopol: yeah the quantums became conscious and talked back whenever relativity told them to do shit
19:30:39 <Vorpal> that probably explains it
19:30:45 <elliott> Vorpal: I *didn't* sleep last night.
19:30:52 <elliott> Vorpal: 24.5 hours I've been awake now.
19:30:56 <pikhq> Perhaps we should forbid the mentioning of quantum and relativistic mechanics to people too stupid to comprehend them.
19:31:08 <elliott> Vorpal: I've gone past the "falling asleep in my chair" stage to the "lucid once more" stage.
19:31:11 <SgeoN1> (I think that's how high my CMOS is, which just decided that my USB drive is an fdd
19:31:17 <oklopol> saying something retarded on there
19:31:30 <elliott> oklopol: like "god made the universe in 7 actual days"
19:31:40 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway it can obviously only have one property, which would be it's existence. Which means it that is all we can describe it by.
19:31:54 <elliott> Vorpal: No, man, the property would be another thing.
19:31:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Its only property is ITSELF.
19:32:14 <pikhq> elliott: Some people actually believe that God made the universe in 7 actual days.
19:32:22 <elliott> pikhq: That was sort of entirely what my joke was based on.
19:32:35 <pikhq> elliott: The same morons can often be found believing that the King James Bible is the only valid Bible.
19:32:53 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you haven't seen Schlafly trying to justify the fudge to Newtonian gravity.
19:33:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: JUSTIFY FUDGE TO ME
19:33:13 <elliott> pikhq: The Christian Bible needs a fucking name, I'm sick of it being called "The Bible".
19:33:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what fudge?
19:33:39 <oklopol> if there isn't an article about perfect spaces
19:33:47 <elliott> Vorpal: THE fudge. The single object that exists.
19:33:50 <elliott> Vorpal: The fudge's property is the fudge.
19:33:54 <Vorpal> elliott, you can't name it
19:33:55 <oklopol> maybe we could add one saying only god can create perfect spaces
19:33:56 <elliott> The fudge is made out of a single the fudge.
19:33:59 <Vorpal> because the name is another thing
19:34:08 <elliott> Vorpal: The whole universe, when taken together, is the name "the fudge".
19:34:11 <SgeoN1> Ok. Unetbootin isn't working like it should
19:34:24 <Vorpal> elliott, but that consists of separate letters
19:34:24 <oklopol> because man is not perfect
19:34:40 <oklopol> man will always leave a couple points in every neighborhood
19:35:00 <elliott> Vorpal: no it's all joined together
19:35:25 <pikhq> elliott: Biblia sacra.
19:35:31 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the fudge is replacing r^2 with r^2.anindecentnumberof0s1 in the gravity formula.
19:35:59 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, I might have found an acceptable AMD processor.
19:36:18 <elliott> pikhq: Phenom II X4 925. 2.8 GHz quad core, 4x512KB L2, 6MB L3, and 95W TDP.
19:36:30 <elliott> Sure, that's still too high... but it's certainly decent.
19:36:36 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, Schlafly doesn't seem to have realised that that value would imply that space was curved *anyway*.
19:37:02 <elliott> pikhq: Disadvantage: It's $129.99, which is not far away from the $179.99 prices of X6 monstrosities with the newer core architectures.
19:37:52 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what do you actually need your megaprocessor for?
19:38:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Umm, I actually just want... a processor.
19:38:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Four cores isn't much to ask for these days.
19:38:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: See, I want a decent computer. So I want to assemble one.
19:38:27 <oklopol> FUCK YEAH "Christians qualify this statement further by stating that God is infinite, as are all things associated with Him (His Might, His Forgiveness, etc), but our finite minds cannot comprehend them. For this further reason we should not include infinite sets into our mathematical universe. "
19:38:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Which requires a dual-socket motherboard. And also uses more heat.
19:38:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm a freak, so I don't want a single moving part in my computer other than the bulk storage hard disk.
19:39:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Meaning: I have thermal limits I need to adhere to.
19:39:09 <oklopol> http://conservapedia.com/Axiom_of_Infinity
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19:40:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not offering virtualisation in lower-end processors just to make people buy more, illegal demand to a laptop (IIRC) manufacturer that they cannot use AMD processors in more than N models otherwise Intel would break their deal (they got fined SHITLOADS for this), Trusted Computing bullshit, and most recently the "You buy a processor, but we've locked up some of the features. You can pay us online, and we'll software-unlock them. Fuck
19:40:48 <elliott> "Not offering virtualisation in lower-end processors just to make people buy more"
19:40:55 <elliott> there is no technical reason or cost to disable VT-x in the processors
19:40:58 <elliott> and AMD offers it on all models
19:41:05 <elliott> so it's a scummy marketing technique
19:42:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So the only problem is that AMD processors suck. :)
19:42:13 <elliott> I know! I'll buy a TRANSMETA PROCESSOR.
19:42:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Pretty much. Well, AMD don't suck too much.
19:43:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If you don't mind a dozen or so extra watts on your power bill, and you don't care how loud your computer is, you can run AMD just fine.
19:43:28 <elliott> It's freaks like me that have issues.
19:44:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IIRC someone in Finland did use an external radiator...
19:44:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But hooking a heatpipe system up to a radiator is not fun. :)
19:44:29 <SgeoN1> There's encryption in the processor for those features?
19:44:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Much easier if you can just poke holes in your case, and put a GIGANTIC FUCKING HEATSINK on your CPU.
19:44:49 <SgeoN1> To gain access to those features, I mean?
19:44:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The other option is this: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=zalman_fanless.html
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19:44:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Which I'd just buy, except it's Intel-only.
19:45:16 <elliott> SgeoN1: I think it's just a bit-flip, but I'm not sure.
19:45:17 <fizzie> [htkallas@triton ~]$ salloc -p short grep -c ^processor /proc/cpuinfo 2>/dev/null
19:45:21 <fizzie> You need at least that many cores.
19:45:28 <fizzie> Preferrably a strictly greater number.
19:45:36 <elliott> fizzie: Donate all your computers and I TOTALLY WILL
19:45:42 <SgeoN1> So then why doesn't someone distribute gpld software to do t?
19:45:49 <elliott> fizzie: Hmm, I could just use a qemu emulating a 13-core machine as my main computer.
19:46:04 <pikhq> SgeoN1: Obnoxious lawsuit.
19:46:04 <elliott> SgeoN1: Because you'd have to reverse-engineer it? Also, haha, GPL, more likely some Windows shitsoftware written by a script kiddie.
19:46:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, have I ever expressed my disdain for Linux's support for my graphics hardware?
19:46:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's sort of not Linux's fault, but yes, everyone has that problem.
19:46:30 <elliott> Except for Intel card users.
19:46:36 <elliott> And we have the problem of underpowered GPUs.
19:46:42 <elliott> I think you said you use Intel. Which just means that you're on crack.
19:47:43 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Intel should just work.
19:48:03 <pikhq> As the official driver for it is part of X...
19:48:07 <Phantom_Hoover> *Now*, the GPU actually hangs upon a number of things.
19:48:38 <Phantom_Hoover> So either some solder melted or something is badly wrong.
19:49:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=58457
19:49:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Gets awesomecrazy a few posts in.
19:50:36 <SgeoN1> Hah. Universal USB Installer uses a temporary copy of 7zip
19:50:52 <elliott> pikhq: Have you ever noticed how awesome mice are?
19:51:07 -!- Baal_Zebel has left (?).
19:51:38 <Phantom_Hoover> [[00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Mobile 4 Series Chipset Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 07)]] — lspci
19:51:51 <Phantom_Hoover> [[00:02.1 Display controller: Intel Corporation Mobile 4 Series Chipset Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 07)]]
19:52:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and here's one of my favourite cases: http://www.silentpcreview.com/files/images/epcn-tnn500/epcn1.jpg
19:52:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That thing -- case and cooling system -- costs about $1,000.
19:52:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It is UNBELIEVABLY heavy.
19:52:56 <Gregor> It weighs more than the sun.
19:53:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It is a case. Inside, you have small heatsinks and the whole thing is wired up with copper pipe like a watercooled system except... solid copper.
19:53:09 <elliott> And then, it's attached to the outer shell of the case.
19:53:15 <elliott> Which is just REALLY THICK, REALLY HEAVY METAL.
19:53:19 <SgeoN1> Oh look. Now that I do what Canonical recommended, and told Unetbootin to fuck off, things work
19:53:26 <elliott> Not only is it an iron maiden, it just dissipates the heat into HELL.
19:53:38 <elliott> (see wut i did thar heavy meatl iron ma)
19:53:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "# Weighs 26Kg."
19:53:53 <elliott> I weigh less than double that!
19:53:55 <SgeoN1> Although right now it looks like it's stuck
19:54:00 <SgeoN1> It better not be stuck
19:54:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.silentpcreview.com/files/images/epcn-tnn500/epcn9.jpg TECHNOLOGY
19:54:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it was discontinued in 2004 :(
19:55:24 <elliott> I wonder if bsmntbombdood still uses that insane rig I specced out for him.
19:55:31 <elliott> Still can't believe it cost less than $1,600.
19:55:36 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, how about: you have a radiator array somewhere out-of-the way; you run the pipes to that, and use a Stirling engine to pump it.
19:55:40 <SgeoN1> It looks like it's stuck on NET: Registered protocol family 1
19:56:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Pumping of any sort is out. Movement of any sort = sound.
19:56:08 <SgeoN1> Why is nothing happening grrrrb
19:56:11 <oklopol> you don't need a cooler if you use a GoL processor
19:56:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The only sound I'll accept is a one terabyte bulk storage drive, and that grudgingly :P
19:56:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hell, you can get fans that are literally inaudible in any sane (non-anechoic chamber) environment.
19:56:44 <oklopol> well, you do but you can just use gliders to send heat away from the action
19:56:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But I'm a crazy bastard, you see.
19:56:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well it could work
19:57:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: find me a big ass-radiator that'd work without too much modding :P
19:57:06 <Phantom_Hoover> And it runs from the heat gradient across the radiator.
19:57:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: also surely a regular pump would work
19:57:24 <elliott> oklopol: that's why the hotter you get, the smarter you are
19:57:37 <elliott> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231392 anyone want 48 gigs of ram?
19:58:34 <elliott> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820226096 Or, much more reasonably, 12 gigs of ram :P
19:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed, it would be *best* to have a huge amount of heat with the Stirling system.
19:58:43 <SgeoN1> This isn't working. Why isn't it working?
19:59:22 <SgeoN1> Attempting to get Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition to start off USB
19:59:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Moving the water takes constant power, which comes entirely from the heat.
20:00:29 <Phantom_Hoover> How much force would you expect to need to run a radiator in such a system?
20:02:50 <SgeoN1> Why wont the bloody thing work?
20:03:05 <SgeoN1> Maybe there's some CMOS setting that I need?
20:03:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps if you actually described the problem that would help.
20:04:38 <SgeoN1> The boot order wont stick, but Ive been using the boot menu
20:04:49 <SgeoN1> It keeps getting stuck at that NET thing
20:07:57 <SgeoN1> The CMOS deletes the USB entry from the boot order when there's a boot up without a USB stico
20:09:53 <SgeoN1> http://i.imgur.com/TEVSt.jpg this is where it's stuck
20:11:07 <elliott> Looks very much like my machine.
20:11:43 <elliott> SgeoN1: Cool, the retarded brother of my laptop.
20:13:25 <fizzie> For the record, protocol family 1 is Unix domain sockets, and necessarily doesn't have all that much to do with whatever it gets stuck with.
20:14:08 <SgeoN1> So then, why is it getting stuck?
20:14:29 <elliott> SgeoN1: I don't know I'll use my psychic powers
20:14:37 <SgeoN1> It occurs to me that I may have downloaded the 32 bit version
20:14:59 <elliott> It would still boot just fine.
20:15:38 <fizzie> It probably won't help, but my Ubuntu boot-time dmesg looks quite a lot like that, and the immediately following lines are:
20:15:40 <fizzie> [ 0.404185] NET: Registered protocol family 1
20:15:41 <fizzie> [ 0.482223] Freeing initrd memory: 9188k freed
20:15:41 <fizzie> [ 1.430015] pci 0000:00:12.1: OHCI: BIOS handoff failed (BIOS bug?) 00000184
20:15:41 <fizzie> [ 1.521275] pci 0000:01:05.0: Boot video device
20:16:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WINDOZ probably
20:16:34 <elliott> Or better yet NOT tried it?
20:16:34 <fizzie> Tried to use the noapic/nolapic/acpi=off boot parameters with that Ubuntu?
20:16:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, WP had, in its comparison of TeX editors, "Compatibility with Windows 7 math panel".
20:17:00 <fizzie> (Those should be there in the boot-time menu.)
20:17:02 <SgeoN1> I was planning on first trying this, and if I liked it, dual-boot
20:17:02 <SgeoN1> I've tried it in the past
20:17:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Exactly one of the editors had anything other than "No" in that column.
20:17:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Information elitist.
20:18:35 <SgeoN1> Fuzzier, hadn't tried it yet
20:18:44 <Phantom_Hoover> WP's table format doesn't allow you to get rid of columns easily.
20:19:49 <Vorpal> elliott, opinion on paternoster lifts?
20:20:14 <SgeoN1> What's the difference between them?
20:20:17 <fizzie> elliott: Opinion on Valery Nikolayevsky?
20:20:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have a reason for this seemingly random question!
20:20:31 <elliott> fizzie: Opinion on global warming?
20:20:37 <elliott> Vorpal: You did it with Minecarts.
20:20:47 <Vorpal> elliott, no. with boats. Or I'm going to do so
20:20:49 <Vorpal> elliott, http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=22428
20:20:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, mine was a Wikipedia "Random article", unsurprisingly.
20:22:21 <elliott> fizzie: If you don't spoon-feed SgeoN1 some answers now, he might have to think and where will we be then?
20:22:22 <fizzie> SgeoN1: Uh, they do different things? noapic/nolapic disable some newer sort of programmable interrupt controllers, and acpi=off may help on systems where the ACPI bios stuff is somehow strangey-weirdo.
20:22:35 <SgeoN1> I just tried all of them
20:22:46 <fizzie> Sure, that's reasonable.
20:23:28 <SgeoN1> ...believe it or not, I realized that
20:23:39 <SgeoN1> Just had no clue what any of them meant
20:23:47 <Vorpal> hm I guess another way to phrase that would be that words are _ordered_ sets of letters.
20:23:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: If only they would've called it Advanced Power and Configuration Interface, instead of Advanced Configuration and Power Interface; then we'd have identical acronyms there.
20:24:30 <fizzie> Erm, or actually APCI is still not APIC. Oh well.
20:24:55 <fizzie> Maybe call the latter Advanced Programmable Controller of Interrupts instead of ... Interrupt Controller.
20:25:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, they could have called PCIe APCI too. For Advanced PCI
20:25:47 <elliott> ordered multiset i.e. list :P
20:25:58 <SgeoN1> I thought 10.10 Netbook Edition was supposed to use Chromium by default
20:26:30 <Vorpal> elliott, I think "ordered multisets" sounds better than "lists" though. Mainly because it takes slightly longer to parse.
20:26:35 <elliott> SgeoN1: You thought wrong.
20:27:03 <fizzie> SgeoN1: Did you mention what actually happened with those options?
20:27:48 <SgeoN1> I don't know which did it though
20:28:03 <fizzie> My guess would be acpi=off, but that's just from personal "thing that breaks often" experiences.
20:28:04 <oklopol> cheater99: what is, the thing i told you last or the thing i said last?
20:28:13 <oklopol> actually i guess i haven't said anything for a while so
20:28:31 <cheater99> oklopol: -- You are sitting in a chair. --
20:28:31 <oklopol> knows pretty much everything about it
20:28:50 <Vorpal> <fizzie> My guess would be acpi=off, but that's just from personal "thing that breaks often" experiences. <-- I just hope that is a desktop and not a laptop
20:28:54 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:29:07 <cheater99> oklopol: i was replying to what you said to me last
20:30:05 -!- jcp has joined.
20:30:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a laptop, which might make power-management and/or suspendy stuff quite a tricky thing.
20:31:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed it would
20:32:00 <cheater99> oklopol: so does sgeo really know that much about cobol?
20:32:17 <oklopol> i didn't really read the conversation from which i deduced this
20:32:32 <cheater99> i need to have it translated to php
20:32:40 <oklopol> and i think it was more like sgeo said about cobol that wasn't completely retarded and everyone hated on him
20:32:55 <cheater99> there's already one team working on it, but their approach is crap
20:34:02 <oklopol> if you have some sort of real problem, i'm not the guy to talk to
20:34:26 <oklopol> if you have an imaginary problem then maybe
20:34:32 <cheater99> the problem is unusual enough that it's highly unlikely someone will actually have experience doing that exactly
20:34:48 <oklopol> hmm umm well i can give you all the insight i have:
20:35:06 <Vorpal> cheater99, cobol... php. Both are very wtf.
20:35:11 <elliott> i didn't think cobol-> could ever be a bad thing
20:35:15 <elliott> but putting php on the end of it
20:35:40 <elliott> they can help with all practical questions. especially ones about COBOL and PHP.
20:35:54 <elliott> Yes... those messages were so angsty...
20:36:09 <elliott> I'm cutting myself just to let the ANGST out of my body.
20:36:21 <elliott> It can't just be that you never talk about anything interesting or even vaguely on the esoteric side of things, nope.
20:36:24 <Vorpal> + Now talking on #unesoteric
20:36:25 <Vorpal> + Phantom_Hoover (~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #unesoteric
20:36:25 <Vorpal> + oklopol (~oklopol@xdsl-83-150-123-242.nebulazone.fi) has joined #unesoteric
20:36:35 <elliott> Vorpal: see, a thriving community alraedy
20:36:50 <cheater99> so if anyone's got good ideas, i'm all ears.
20:37:15 <oklopol> i don't need money i have a joba
20:37:30 <elliott> nobody here does COBOL. nobody here does PHP. nobody wants to. nobody wants to help whatever shitty conversion that is. especially if you won't even justify it.
20:37:42 <oklopol> i think i read a book about cobol once?
20:37:44 <cheater99> is *job just like a virtual idea of where your actual job would be?
20:37:55 <oklopol> no i actually do have a job
20:38:06 <oklopol> the joke is i'm not actually getting payed that much
20:38:43 <elliott> Vorpal: can I borrow a dictionary? I think cheater99 needs some definitions clarified for him. e.g. "angst"
20:39:03 <elliott> 1. A feeling of acute but vague anxiety or apprehension often accompanied by depression, especially philosophical anxiety.
20:39:05 <elliott> 2. More commonly, painful sadness or emotional turmoil, as teen angst.
20:39:06 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
20:39:22 <Vorpal> elliott, sure you can. Cambridge unabridged
20:39:23 <cheater99> elliott: how is what you're doing not apprehension?
20:39:23 <elliott> i guess he could theoretically think that he manages to induce emotional turmoil in me rather than chronic irritatedness.
20:39:29 <oklopol> haha elliott has an uncountable amount of angst
20:39:52 <elliott> cheater99: "homophobia (uncountable)
20:39:56 <elliott> 1. (obsolete, individual occurrences) A pathological fear of mankind."
20:39:56 <oklopol> get it, his angst has a subset that has strictly less cardinality than his angst that can still be put in bijection with its proper subset
20:39:58 <elliott> cheater99: ergo homophobia means "fear"
20:40:04 <elliott> i know it's true, because one of the words was in there
20:40:35 <SgeoN1> COBOL should be easy to mechanically translate from
20:40:37 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99, #unesoteric has competent COBOL and PHP experts, FWIW.
20:40:42 <SgeoN1> But it wont produce readable code
20:40:53 <cheater99> elliott: are you done having your attack?
20:41:07 <oklopol> SgeoN1: oh? i would've thought it's especially hard to parse
20:41:09 <elliott> cheater99: sorry i will stop this libel and slander
20:41:23 <elliott> cheater99: i apologise for any losses you may have incurred as a result of my hideous character deformation
20:41:29 <Vorpal> elliott, don't feed the troll
20:41:37 <SgeoN1> I can't even begin to imagine under what circumstances cobol->PHP is even meaningful though
20:41:42 <elliott> cheater99: my only condition is that you administrate #unesoteric for the good of COBOLkind.
20:41:50 <elliott> Vorpal: everyone else does, so obviously it must be fun
20:41:51 <cheater99> SgeoN1: someone's paying, that's meaningful enough :P
20:41:57 <Vorpal> elliott, what about PHP->COBOL?
20:42:06 * elliott considers paying cheater99 to rape babies all day long
20:42:20 <cheater99> elliott: i thought you were done now?
20:42:27 <elliott> cheater99: you didn't agree to my condition
20:42:43 <elliott> and three quarters of a half
20:42:49 <SgeoN1> Seriously, do COBOL -> Python or Java or Ruby or somethinf
20:43:01 <elliott> 8 and a half and three quarters of a half
20:43:22 <elliott> Vorpal: yes. i have a time machine set up to ensure this age stays constant
20:43:29 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to divide it down to plank time :P
20:43:34 <SgeoN1> COBOL should not be involved with web sites. PHP should not be involved with... well, anything really, but especially not nonwensites
20:43:39 <elliott> Vorpal: is plank time the time it takes for a plank?
20:43:40 <cheater99> SgeoN1: i would love to be doing python, but unfortunately the project's been doing php for years now :p
20:43:50 <oklopol> elliott: you go forward in time all the time you mean?
20:44:00 <Vorpal> elliott, err did I typo?
20:44:01 <cheater99> SgeoN1: in this case, cobol was involved in websites, and now php is involved in doing websites, and non-websites
20:44:03 <elliott> oklopol: at a rate of 1 second per second!
20:44:27 <cheater99> SgeoN1: how would you do this mechanical translation, anyways?
20:44:46 <elliott> cheater99: kittens and rainbows
20:44:48 <cheater99> cobol doesn't have much in the way of an AST that can be meaningfully used, since it has lots of goto's
20:44:54 <elliott> you put them on a treadmill and put a furnace behind the treadmill
20:44:56 <Vorpal> elliott, actually plank time is the same. But you can check how many rings they have to find out... uh... how many rings they have!
20:45:00 <cheater99> and lots of weird jumps and entry points
20:45:01 <elliott> and make the treadmill go super-fast if they don't type out PHP code
20:45:06 <SgeoN1> Well, if you want readable PHP, do translation by hand, then spend a few months getting rid of the globalism and Vito's and alters and everything else that makes COBOL so bad
20:45:09 <cheater99> that doesn't really translate to any sane language being used nowadays
20:45:11 <elliott> the rainbows are just there for decoration
20:45:20 <cheater99> SgeoN1: it doesn't have to be readable.. it just has to do the same thing, really
20:45:35 <Vorpal> elliott, Note: do not confuse plank time and tree time. Tree time is when you drink sap.
20:45:57 <SgeoN1> Globalism? Vito's? Fuck you autocorrect
20:46:06 * Gregor stabs Vorpal with a ... wrench.
20:46:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Plank time is when your plank gets hard and then sap comes out of it.
20:46:24 <cheater99> yeah, what's the "vitos" supposed to be? :o
20:46:26 <elliott> Gregor: Worst stabbing instrument ever :P
20:46:39 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, you say that until there's a wrench stickin' out yer kidney.
20:46:49 <SgeoN1> How difficult can it be to mechanically translate gotos to something... that exists in PHP?
20:46:54 * elliott stabs Vorpal with a cardboard box
20:46:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, why did I just imagine a google results page saying "Did you mean: stab with a wench"
20:47:03 <elliott> SgeoN1: php added goto recently
20:47:11 <cheater99> SgeoN1: php has goto's, but it's more about the zillions of entry points, and global references
20:47:28 <SgeoN1> Is there a way to mechanically get rid of alter? I remember seeing it once
20:47:33 <cheater99> SgeoN1: also, php using goto's isn't really recommended
20:47:42 <elliott> php isn't really recommended.
20:47:48 <SgeoN1> I thought you said it has to work, not be readable
20:47:52 <Gregor> A nice (read: terrible) way to emulate goto which I think PHP has the equivalent of is with a labeled switch with fallthrough.
20:47:58 * Vorpal stabs elliott with a cardboard fox
20:48:12 <cheater99> SgeoN1: yeah, but goto in php is bad in that it doesn't work too well
20:48:19 <elliott> What happened to the days when this channel was about the interesting stuff that people weren't doing just because they were paid to do it?
20:48:24 <cheater99> SgeoN1: also it can't do everything that cobol goto can do
20:48:30 <elliott> Oh right, cheater99 (and others) happened.
20:48:58 <Vorpal> elliott, well, /ignore cheater99
20:49:02 <SgeoN1> Well, have your script mechanically copy and paste so that function calls are used where gotos qere
20:49:11 <SgeoN1> Duplication of code, the works
20:49:14 <elliott> Vorpal: been doing that for ages, oklopol will never do it and the beast will get fed :p
20:49:20 <elliott> Vorpal: but ok, fine, i'll put it on this partition too
20:49:31 <elliott> MAYBE HE'LL CUT HIMSELF TO DEATH ;_;
20:49:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I just added the ignore
20:49:38 <elliott> with the angst he projects onto others
20:49:38 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99, goes on about his job *once*, and the channel is RUINED FOREVER?
20:49:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you have terrible memory.
20:49:51 <cheater99> SgeoN1: what does "alter" do actually?
20:49:58 <elliott> cheater99 has never once discussed anything interesting. i don't recall him mentioning esolangs once.
20:50:00 <cheater99> SgeoN1: it changes the global state, doesn't it?
20:50:00 <oklopol> elliott: i just ignored him today
20:50:06 <oklopol> but then realized maybe it was my fault
20:50:19 <Gregor> Everything I do is becoming decreasingly esoteric :P
20:50:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: every single thing he says is pointless and stupid. and most of it is blatant trolling.
20:50:27 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, but you're not an irritating fuckwit.
20:51:13 <oklopol> Gregor: no your wit is too ugly to be fucked
20:51:29 <elliott> Gregor: Try washing your beard sometime.
20:51:35 <elliott> Then you can start working on your wit.
20:52:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
20:52:46 <Gregor> Not even physically capable.
20:52:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:53:18 <cheater99> SgeoN1: so alter is basically like a static var containing a callback
20:53:52 <oklopol> yeah let's all call Gregor names and then ignore him and maybe kill him
20:54:32 <elliott> Gregor has no taste of smell
20:54:37 <elliott> tastes and smells only dung
20:54:54 <elliott> PLEASE EXPAND GREGOR ON THIS TOPIC
20:55:34 <elliott> pikhq: Sheesh, I think AMD actually comes out more expensive overall due to the motherboards and shit.
20:55:54 <elliott> pikhq: Found a nice motherboard for $49.99. All compatible stuff and the like. AM3. But 95W max cpu.
20:55:59 <elliott> pikhq: The others are... more expensive.
20:57:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, you can't grow facial hair because you didn't eat PORRIDGE.
20:58:35 <cheater99> SgeoN1: i don't see any other way to understand it than that
20:59:59 <cheater99> SgeoN1: have you ever done any translation of cobol to something else?
21:00:04 <cheater99> or automatic refactoring of cobol?
21:05:04 <Vorpal> elliott, you MUST try the vertical waterfall with boat thingy, it is super-fast
21:05:32 <cheater99> oklopol: btw, how is this topology based cobnti
21:05:44 <cheater99> oklopol: btw, how is this topology based continuity broader defined than the sup based one?
21:06:23 <cheater99> oklopol: i don't think the hypothesis for the sup based one actually ensures there's a topology, does it?
21:06:34 <oklopol> because if you take a certain topology on the poset, then that sup continuity is actually just the usual continuity
21:06:55 <oklopol> err well you add the topology.
21:07:41 <cheater99> because function continuity isn't an invariant of topology, is it?
21:07:47 <oklopol> a topology where open sets are upper sets that you can't reach with sups of directed sets from their complement......
21:07:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Reboot).
21:09:07 <oklopol> that's one, but the definition is
21:09:30 <oklopol> x \in set, y >= x => y in set
21:10:01 <oklopol> if we have infs then yours gives all of these, i think, if you take [x, oo) and (x, oo)
21:11:08 <oklopol> so anyway i do admit that may not be the most natural topology on an ordered set
21:13:34 * cheater99 can't wait till he has all his maths books with him..
21:14:18 <oklopol> i was just reading about different topologies for CA today
21:15:07 <cheater99> oklopol: i've got like 300 maths and physics books..
21:15:23 <oklopol> i have like 1000 on my computer, but very few irl
21:15:38 <cheater99> on my computer that's like 5 digits
21:15:47 <oklopol> i'd just lick them all day
21:16:10 <cheater99> hadn't seen most of 'em since i started my moves around europe
21:16:43 <cheater99> in the meantime i acquired some smaller collections :p
21:16:46 <oklopol> do you have kurka's topological and symbolic dynamics
21:18:07 <oklopol> didn't kuratowski also do some computational stuffs and things?
21:18:15 <oklopol> maybe he did everything tho
21:18:34 <cheater99> i have a book (not by him) on computable numbers
21:18:50 <oklopol> kurka is actually written with a u with o on top, in case you don't know the guy
21:18:58 <cheater99> kuratowski did mostly stuff around the sets R and N.
21:19:27 <cheater99> never heard of that character either
21:19:40 <cheater99> but kurka means little chicken in polish.
21:19:55 <oklopol> actually i thought it was polish or something
21:22:51 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:23:14 <cheater99> when i saw the first name (petr) it was obvious he's czech
21:24:58 <Vorpal> elliott, new screenshots at http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/ (2010-11-10_23.45.52.png and onwards). Including a fun attraction
21:25:16 <Vorpal> not the loop system yet
21:25:22 <Vorpal> was testing out the general idea
21:27:08 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:39:18 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:40:33 -!- Sasha has joined.
21:55:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:01:00 * Sgeo stupidly visits a site he knows will give him nightmares tonight
22:01:57 -!- nooga has joined.
22:02:06 <nooga> tk looks like motif
22:06:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:08:34 * Sgeo decides not to read the scary parts
22:09:06 <Sgeo> http://exitmundi.nl
22:16:12 <nooga> suddenly i want to make an UI based on boxes and wires
22:16:18 <nooga> and inlets and outlets
22:16:21 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, is the Mysterious Teleport Hacker the guy with the alien science?
22:16:35 <nooga> but i have no idea for what
22:21:01 <nooga> i love my provider
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22:48:22 <olsner> hmm, the grand plan for today was to not drink and instead work on getting my kernel to relocate itself to a safe area of the address space and put user-accessible pages in a different area
22:54:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Lemme guess: you drank a lot and made the kernel do a sum total of nothing.
22:55:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, can we contract you to do OS stuff we can't be bothered to do ourselves?
22:55:31 <olsner> elliott asked yesterday if I could be contracted to write a compiler in assembly
22:55:36 <Sgeo> Why not define "safe area" as "area where the kernel is"?
22:55:56 <olsner> Sgeo: but the kernel is in the *same* area as the other stuff, so that won't fly
22:55:57 <Sgeo> Then again, I guess that could slow down application-level pointer arithmatic
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22:56:25 <olsner> I need them to live in discontiguous pages, at least discontiguous *virtual* pages
22:56:37 <olsner> and I need the user-space to not have write access to any kernel stuff
22:56:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, the standard method is IIRC to make the kernel be in the higher-half address space.
22:59:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: elliott, is the Mysterious Teleport Hacker the guy with the alien science?
22:59:20 <olsner> and amd64's treatment of addresses (where there's one part growing from the bottom and one growing from the top) pretty much screams "put the kernel HEeeeeEeeRE!" and points to the upper halfspace
22:59:25 <Phantom_Hoover> The guy who's been screwing with all of the teleport experiments.
23:00:02 <olsner> oh, another MTH? you do know there are several of them, right?
23:00:37 <Phantom_Hoover> There's just the two mishaps during the tests of the apparatus.
23:00:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh, the Bad Guy? I know no more than you. And what tells you it's a *person*?
23:00:51 <elliott> Sgeo: If you say anything I will eviscerate your body.
23:01:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Where are you up to?
23:01:23 <elliott> I've read The Story So Far and no further, as it stands.
23:01:25 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TywmpMQYojs
23:01:53 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I'm up to 'Two killed in "transporter accident"'.
23:02:24 <elliott> I think it's probably the song where all the rhymes seem to point to expletives/sexual references but then THEY DON'T
23:02:32 <elliott> (The version I saw is rather amusing, at least.)
23:02:34 <olsner> elliott: THE VERY song
23:02:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Gotta love the BBC "quotes" there.
23:03:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I always get the feeling that the BBC is vaguely sceptical about everything that happens ever.
23:03:30 -!- digimunk has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:03:43 <olsner> being sceptical is a very good approach to pretty much everything though
23:03:55 <Sgeo> elliott, except nullity
23:04:10 <elliott> olsner: but not in a condescending way :)
23:04:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But not superpositioning...
23:05:12 <olsner> elliott: you're saying condescending scepticism is bad?
23:05:22 <elliott> olsner: when applied to everything, yes
23:06:00 <olsner> anything applied to everything is bad, everything should be applied (only) where appropriate
23:06:11 <elliott> olsner: "Recent scientific studies show strong possibility that [thing] can help significantly alleviate Alzheimer's. [well written, factual, sourced article]" "I'll wait to see the reports on the JOURNALIST'S Alzheimer's first, heh."
23:07:26 <olsner> (... then again, we should apply anything where inappropriate too - so that we can know how well it works)
23:07:45 <olsner> elliott: written by a JOURNALIST?
23:07:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Healthy scepticism != condescending "scepticism".
23:07:55 <elliott> olsner: It takes place in my fantasy world, k.
23:08:15 <elliott> olsner: Now write the ElliottOSLang compiler.
23:08:24 * olsner has very limited knowledge on elliott's fantasy world
23:08:35 <elliott> olsner: EVERYONE HAS A PET BEE
23:08:47 <elliott> Yes, everyone who learns of my fantasy world gets to LIVE IN IT
23:08:48 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: oh, DO I
23:08:50 <Phantom_Hoover> It's like wonderland, except crazier and less conservative.
23:09:14 <elliott> At least I don't believe that ElliottOS will ever get significant adoption at all :P
23:09:25 <elliott> Although I expect Phantom_Hoover to switch, or I'll slit his throat.
23:09:58 <olsner> killing your potential users means they become guaranteed non-users
23:10:05 <olsner> IS THIS A GOOD THING???
23:10:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It'd have an IRC client and a web browser, what more do you need.
23:11:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, could you make Emacs a cakewalk by writing an ELISP evaluator in CL?
23:12:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You can play NetHack over VNC or something.
23:12:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, fine, NetHack too.
23:12:44 <elliott> VNC = remote display protocol.
23:12:59 <elliott> Like X11 except you don't use it locally either.
23:12:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and a text editor.
23:13:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (The UI will probably be something like a souped-up Emacs with a lesser focus on text.)
23:13:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Add an ELISP interpreter to that, and you basically have Emacs, unless I'm missing something.
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23:14:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, except not nearly as good.
23:14:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean, Emacs doesn't have orthogonal persistence.
23:14:55 <elliott> Or ... any of my OS features.
23:14:55 <elliott> And its UI is a hopelessly inadequate implementation of what it could be.
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23:15:44 <Phantom_Hoover> But if you can run ELISP stuff with minimal modification you have a tremendous library of useful stuff.
23:16:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (I mean, Genera's interface is basically "Emacs on crack" already.)
23:16:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: elisp is possibly the worst Lisp ever thought of ever.
23:16:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Even disregarding that... they're usually very tied to the idea of "files".
23:16:27 <elliott> I sort of don't have files.
23:16:30 <Sgeo> Simulate files!
23:16:38 <elliott> Also, it's not like I'm not reimplementing everything myself anyway. Compared to what I already have on my plate, what's a bunch of elisp?
23:16:59 <Sgeo> What's the oldest lisp?
23:17:07 <elliott> Sgeo: I have one simple word for that.
23:17:37 <elliott> What Phantom_Hoover said :P
23:17:39 * Sgeo feels "dolt" woul have been more appropriate
23:18:15 <elliott> Sgeo: Whatever you say, cretin.
23:18:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, that's the wrong kind of tone, although not having the inflection makes it seem harsher.
23:18:35 <Sgeo> "Nixon, you dolt", you dolt!
23:19:27 <Sgeo> http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=5351459
23:19:39 <olsner> cretins, the whole lot of you
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23:20:37 <olsner> hmm, and I may have cut myself on a potato chip
23:21:03 <Sgeo> papertato cut!
23:21:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I once cut a piece of paper in half with another piece of paper.
23:21:31 * Sgeo vaguely assumes that olsner isn't hemophiliac
23:21:34 <elliott> is the internet down for everyone else
23:21:55 <Sgeo> elliott, yes. We are all hallucinations
23:22:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, have you actually read elliott's screeds against filesystems?
23:22:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well it's down for me. Get it back up.
23:22:22 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I ... don't think so
23:22:22 <elliott> oh the internet is sort of working
23:22:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, don't make him.
23:22:50 <elliott> That rant wasn't the best rant I've ever done :P
23:22:52 <Sgeo> I want to read it!
23:22:54 <elliott> (It's all true of course, just expressed badly.)
23:22:55 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wait, you don't like the one on catseye any more, do you?
23:23:08 <Sgeo> I'll probably agree with it, tbh
23:23:43 <Phantom_Hoover> http://catseye.tc/ehird/files-suck.html is the essay; but keep in mind what was just said.
23:23:45 <elliott> Sgeo: http://catseye.tc/ehird/files-suck.html
23:23:59 <elliott> If you like it, you're as whiny as I was when I wrote that.
23:24:27 <olsner> Sgeo: assumptions, assumptions
23:25:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Although the point has been made elsewhere, like on Stanislav's blog.
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23:25:23 <elliott> olsner is haemophiliac; blood turns him on.
23:25:36 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH "whiny" is not a word from which Stanislav retracts.
23:25:44 <olsner> wouldn't that be a haemosexual?
23:26:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ahh, I'd rather my whinging than his incessant pretentious douchebaggery :)
23:26:00 <elliott> Love the guy, but he's the most pompous fucker you'll ever see.
23:26:15 <zzo38> olsner: Maybe it depends if it is sexual or not?
23:26:21 <Sgeo> "Of course not that's simply wasteful, isnt it? Why not store it as the rich representation in the first place, and have functions operate on it directly? That saves computing time and is also much simpler."
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23:26:35 <elliott> I think haemophiliac works.
23:26:45 <olsner> zzo38: getting turned on is by definition sexual, I think
23:26:59 <zzo38> olsner: In that case, I guess it is "haemosexual".
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23:27:25 <Sgeo> Stanislav Pestov?
23:27:34 <zzo38> elliott,Sgeo: Yes it is unicode failure. (I get shaded blocks after "not " and after "isn")
23:27:36 <olsner> zzo38: then again, as elliott pointed out, the terms don't necessarily differentiate between philiacs and sexuals
23:28:03 <zzo38> olsner: Ah. Well, you select the term according to what is properly meant by the terms in the current context, then.
23:28:06 <Sgeo> Utterly wrong person I was trying to think of
23:28:23 <Sgeo> I had the Factor guy in mind
23:28:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What, to the Loper OS blog? Naw. He can find it himself.
23:29:05 <olsner> Sgeo: appropos RIP - "64-bit instruction pointer olsner" makes no sense...
23:33:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, a thing: what would your Lisp OS actually be called once Mitosis came to a sufficiently advanced point?
23:34:52 <olsner> oh, here I go again... open video in fullscreen, press the fullscreen button, expect video to cover entire field of vision
23:34:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, Stanislav lists Mathematica as a non-broken programming system.
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23:35:32 <Sgeo> olsner, HTML5 on YouTube?
23:35:46 <olsner> the real world is a bad window manager, where moving windows means moving monitors aroudn and you can't resize windows without investing money
23:36:34 <Sgeo> Wouldnt you have to invest money to move wndows?
23:36:42 <Sgeo> Or am I hopelessly lost in your analogy
23:37:06 <olsner> no, normally you press the mouse button down in the right place then move the mouse and release the button later
23:37:26 <olsner> that's completely free once you've invested in the computer, pointing device and your first monitor
23:37:38 <Sgeo> You're talking about an actual window manager named "the real world"?
23:37:55 <olsner> yes, I'm talking about the actual real physical world here
23:38:12 <Sgeo> I think I get it
23:38:18 <olsner> i.e. making the full-screen video larger requires getting a bigger screen
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23:39:18 * Sgeo gives pikhq some hydrogen dioxide
23:39:20 -!- elliott has joined.
23:39:37 <elliott> 15:34:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, Stanislav lists Mathematica as a non-broken programming system.
23:39:37 <olsner> looked like an elliott hiccup from here
23:39:49 <elliott> 15:33:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, a thing: what would your Lisp OS actually be called once Mitosis came to a sufficiently advanced point?
23:40:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The perfect OS must of course have the perfect name. I cannot possibly trust myself with deciding what the perfect name is without extensive thought; therefore, the actual OS is unnamed.
23:40:23 <pikhq> They make hybrid Bluray/VHS players.
23:40:38 <Phantom_Hoover> "Fusion" would be the logical name, but it's too boring.
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23:40:54 <pikhq> Sgeo: I highly doubt there's a Bluray player that can't handle DVDs...
23:40:56 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH, it's the only biological term for the phenomenon in question.
23:41:01 <Sgeo> Hydrogen Dioxide is the perfect name!
23:41:12 <olsner> pikhq: imagine making an C/amd 64, 64k and 64-bit in the same box!
23:41:46 <Sgeo> But that actually exists!
23:41:47 <pikhq> Sgeo: I'm a fan of hydric acid.
23:43:11 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: H2O.
23:43:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The phenomenon is NIH.
23:43:26 <zzo38> pikhq: I thought H2O is hydroxic acid, not hydric acid?
23:43:28 <Sgeo> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Hydrogen+dioxide
23:43:46 <Sgeo> Why can hydrogen's di- be omitted?
23:44:40 <Sgeo> Uncorrected typos can cause the end of the world. Do be more careful, Phantom_Hoover.
23:44:53 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't know why? I don't study chemistry
23:45:11 <Sgeo> God, my jokes are boring
23:45:49 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: alternately, people just like calling it that
23:46:34 <Sgeo> So what DO you call HO2?
23:46:48 <Sgeo> Which I'm pretty sure can't exist, but whatever
23:47:06 <zzo38> Sgeo: You call it "monohydrogen dioxide"
23:47:38 <elliott> Sgeo: googling suggests HO2 exists
23:48:02 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: hydroperoxyl? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroperoxyl
23:48:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I'd suppose one of the Hs get taken away when in solution.
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23:55:30 <Ilari> HO2 would be a free radical... And probably quite reactive one at that...
23:57:18 <Ilari> Probably not quite as bad as FO2...
23:59:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what would be the way you'd write software in Lisp86?
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23:59:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Such an uncouth name for the perfect language!
00:01:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, also, if you don't call the stages of Mitosis development {pro,prometa,meta,ana,telo}phase I shall be severely put out.
00:01:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: As if I can quantify them that precisely.
00:02:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I built such a boat paternoster lift now btw
00:02:21 <elliott> Vorpal: What's the point of that?
00:02:35 <Vorpal> elliott, to get to the bottom of the map quickly
00:02:53 <Vorpal> elliott, talking about seconds from ground to bedrock here
00:02:59 <Vorpal> elliott, not in both directions
00:03:09 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway jumping works if you have a 2 deep water pit at the bottom
00:03:12 <Vorpal> that will make it safe
00:03:13 <zzo38> My clock is strange. It says either 12:00 or 7:30 all the time (nothing else), and it sometimes blinks off and then back on in a few seconds, and it sometimes makes noise (even though the alarm is not enabled).
00:03:19 <Vorpal> elliott, that is what the boat is for
00:03:34 <Vorpal> elliott, get notch to implement it
00:03:54 <elliott> Vorpal: If you believe in it, it is there.
00:04:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:04:14 <Vorpal> elliott, what? XD is this a far fetched peter pan reference?
00:04:29 <fizzie> There is also that other thing: if you jump down and hit the active field of a ladder, you'll automagically slow down to the ladder-descending speed. (But you can accidentally hit the top part of the ladder too, and go splat, so I guess water's safer.)
00:04:37 <elliott> Vorpal: No, it's Notchianity.
00:04:49 <elliott> Vorpal: If you truly, in your deepest heart, believe in a feature, then Notch will have made it so.
00:04:57 <elliott> Vorpal: I stand by this principle in all areas of life.
00:05:11 <Vorpal> elliott, you *are* sleep deprived
00:05:23 <elliott> Vorpal: (Notch is actually from another universe, higher than ours. How Minecraft looks to us is how our universe looks to him. He created Minecraft to illustrate this to us.)
00:05:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, player fall faster than the boat
00:05:42 <olsner> pogo stick makes me think of pogo [music] aka fagottron
00:05:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, at least when boat is empty
00:05:53 <fizzie> Air resistance, maybe.
00:06:18 <elliott> olsner: "Alice" is in my head forever.
00:06:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, thus it is not safe in general to jump down that hole that is used for the boat. Cost me quite a bit of hitpoints. Thankfully I had new armour before...
00:06:47 <Vorpal> hitting the boat hurts
00:07:11 <Vorpal> the boat hitting your head while you stand still? Perfectly safe!
00:07:32 <Vorpal> I love the screwy physics
00:07:56 <elliott> Vorpal: By the way, I have JACK-O-LANTERNS in my new game. OH YEAH.
00:08:23 <elliott> Vorpal: A ton of coal ore (30+ of it) right at the start of the game + patch of lanterns shortly after = Maximum early-game profit :P
00:08:35 <elliott> I guess "early-game" is ill-defined in an indefinitely long game.
00:08:47 <Vorpal> elliott, a patch of pumpkins you mean
00:09:10 <Vorpal> elliott, tried to use one as a helmet yet?
00:09:24 <elliott> Vorpal: you know what would be awesome? If, after you move so far away from a given chunk, it just stores the random seed instead. And when you go back, it generates with that seed, but with another parameter randomised slightly.
00:09:26 <Vorpal> elliott, (note: works, but no actual protection)
00:09:36 <elliott> Vorpal: So it'd look like how it did before, same basic structure, but different -- environmental changes.
00:09:45 <elliott> Admittedly you'd lose all your modifications. Blame it on the wind.
00:09:55 <olsner> elliott: "Alice" is nice :) so are all the others, of course
00:09:56 <Vorpal> elliott, try it, it's cool
00:10:10 <elliott> olsner: I haven't heard many of the others, but meh. :P
00:10:27 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway 30 coal isn't much. I have a double-chest here marked "coal"
00:10:34 <olsner> re-listening to alice now, but iirc expialidocious is another of the better ones
00:10:42 <Vorpal> and then one marked "other ores"
00:10:49 <Vorpal> wait, forgot the redstone one
00:10:49 <elliott> Vorpal: You've been playing a lot. :P
00:10:58 <elliott> I did this in one daytime.
00:11:00 <Vorpal> other ores is diamond and gold
00:11:01 <elliott> Or was it two? No, one, I think.
00:11:19 <Vorpal> elliott, also I'm building a fortress out of obsidian walls for the lower level
00:11:34 <olsner> if I knew my shit I'd like to run off and make something similar from one of the star trek movies
00:11:48 <elliott> olsner: the Enterprise-D was constructed :P
00:11:49 <Vorpal> elliott, this will protect against creeper explosions. Due to obsidian being so hard.
00:12:00 <elliott> olsner: of course doing it manually would be near-impossible due to the raw materials you'd need
00:12:06 <olsner> elliott: not talking about minecraft, lol
00:12:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Build a huge castle and live in it.
00:12:13 <elliott> olsner: so... make a spaceship :P
00:12:26 <elliott> olsner: i don't know what the context is
00:12:35 <olsner> elliott: pogo music, still
00:13:37 <Vorpal> elliott, well yes, not sure what I need except from portal room, crafting room, storage room, minecart station. Boat elevator is for use at the mines.
00:13:43 <olsner> unfortunate that KHAAAAN! is already so well/over-used
00:14:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Build a spire way to the top and some elevator to get there. (Or stairs?)
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00:14:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Just for watching the monsters at night, MAKING STRATEGIC DECISIONS.
00:14:30 <Vorpal> elliott, well, did that in creative before
00:14:40 <elliott> Vorpal: Omg, you should build an underground railway leading to your base.
00:14:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I have such a system...
00:14:53 <elliott> Vorpal: So you can explore far, building rail as you go, hop on a Minecart, express way back.
00:14:56 <elliott> All my good ideas are taken!
00:15:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Isn't it a pain to keep making tracks and making space for them, though?
00:15:21 <Vorpal> elliott, issue with spire to max altitude: everything on ground too small to see at that height.
00:15:38 <Vorpal> elliott, well I use a 2x2 tunnel well below the surface
00:15:44 <elliott> Vorpal: eh, i built to cloud altitude
00:15:47 <elliott> and could see spiders on land
00:15:54 <elliott> their red eyes a pixel big
00:16:06 <elliott> Vorpal: it was in a narrow bit of water between two islands though
00:16:09 <elliott> and the islands were a bit raised
00:16:24 <elliott> Vorpal: you could put a workbench/furnace there too, monitor and get work done :P
00:16:38 <Vorpal> there is a natural formation in one of my games that reaches max altitude for a tree on top of a overhang
00:16:44 <Vorpal> that huge overhang one
00:16:48 <Vorpal> you saw the screenshots
00:17:14 <Vorpal> elliott, a furnace? Not enough. I use 8 in parallel nowdays :P
00:17:26 <elliott> Vorpal: But it's authentic, for those camp-on-the-roof evenings!
00:17:45 <Vorpal> elliott, and I need a few chests of course. To store the ore in
00:17:54 <Vorpal> I do the burning in bulk
00:18:08 <Vorpal> like 64 iron per furnace (which means 8 coal)
00:18:17 <Vorpal> (since 1 coal gives 8 operations)
00:18:23 <elliott> Vorpal: You're polluting the Minecraftmosphere.
00:18:29 <elliott> Go back to sustainable furnacing methods.
00:18:31 <Vorpal> elliott, well I could use wood
00:18:43 <elliott> Vorpal: No, burn chickens.
00:18:52 <elliott> Actually enemies are renewable aren't they?
00:18:56 <elliott> So you could just harvest them.
00:19:04 <Vorpal> each wood gives me 1.5 operations
00:19:13 <Vorpal> which is a lot more annoying to calculate with
00:19:46 <Vorpal> ah nice. A huge deposit of clay
00:19:55 <Vorpal> what a pity it is under water
00:20:18 <elliott> Vorpal: just DESTROY THE WATER
00:20:45 <Vorpal> oh well, *goes get tons of sand to drain the area*
00:20:54 <Vorpal> elliott, no, you drain it
00:20:59 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot of work
00:21:23 <Vorpal> elliott, dude, I don't know what mod you use, but I don't use the same one
00:22:09 <elliott> If you can punch neat little blocks of tree trunk off and have the rest float in the air, why not cubes of water?
00:22:13 <Vorpal> elliott, yellow text: "Thats not a moon!"
00:22:49 <Vorpal> and that yellow text is a misquoting I think
00:22:53 <elliott> Should be "That's no moon!" :|
00:23:00 <elliott> even i know that and i'm no star wars fan
00:23:00 <olsner> speaking of moons, apparently the earth has five of them
00:23:04 <elliott> maybe it's an elaborate troll
00:23:10 <elliott> olsner: your mom has a moon
00:23:56 <olsner> elliott: you could at least try to be funny...
00:24:51 <pikhq> *God* that's annoying. To indicate a stereo signal on NTSC-M, the mono signal has a 15.734 kHz tone added.
00:25:06 <olsner> well above my range of hearing!
00:25:37 <pikhq> I can hear up to 21 kHz...
00:25:47 <pikhq> And it's pretty damned annoying sometimes.
00:26:08 <olsner> and it's not filtered out by the receiver?
00:26:28 <pikhq> olsner: The mono signal is completely ignored *if* you have a stereo receiver.
00:26:31 * Sgeo hums a high-pitched sound at pikhq
00:26:39 <Sgeo> Made more horrifying by the fact that it's me
00:26:46 <pikhq> Some cheaper analog sets don't have one.
00:26:50 <olsner> oh great, so they made the mono annoying so that people would upgrade
00:27:03 <pikhq> My TV tuner card doesn't handle stereo, either.
00:27:09 <pikhq> However, I can fix that.
00:27:30 <pikhq> In my television profile in mplayer: af=sinesuppress=15734:0.001
00:27:45 <pikhq> Better living through software.
00:28:29 <Sgeo> I thought analog TV was dead
00:28:36 <pikhq> Sgeo: Not on cable.
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00:31:40 <olsner> and that's the last we heard of elliott
00:36:51 <Sasha> I never intentionally quit the IRC
00:37:43 <Sgeo> Have you ever intentionally quit the USENET?
00:40:17 <Sasha> I don't use USENET
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00:56:28 <Sgeo> The rant about filesystems is on Loper OS blog?
01:00:47 <Sgeo> http://www.loper-os.org/wp-content/parphobia.png
01:03:57 <Sgeo> This is tempting me to learn Common Lisp
01:04:18 <Sgeo> elliott, see what you've done?!
01:17:47 <Sgeo> "Pick Scheme, and you have to pick a Scheme. Pick Common Lisp, and you have to pick a Common Lisp."
01:17:51 <Sgeo> http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html
01:18:03 <Sgeo> That's pretty much why I abandoned the whole thing last time, iirc
01:34:40 <Sgeo> elliott, link me to the rant
01:35:01 <Ilari> Warning: The more optimistic IPv4 depletion counter estimates IANA depletion at mid-March now... :-/
01:35:36 <Sgeo> "It rejects even what little consistency and intellectual rigor there is to be found in an abomination like Common Lisp."
01:35:42 <Ilari> http://inetcore.com/project/ipv4ec/en-us/index.html
01:35:45 <Sgeo> So... what Lisp does this person recommend?
01:36:35 <Sgeo> Ah, Symbolics Genera
01:37:06 <Ilari> That AFRINIC allocation and Sprint allocating equivalent of 5x/13 really threw their models...
01:39:04 <pikhq> (in the IANA pool)
01:39:12 <Ilari> AFAIK, still 6. But ARIN will grab two soon...
01:39:52 <pikhq> Ah, yeah. It'll be 4 once ARIN grabs that.
01:41:46 <pikhq> Hmm. RIR depletion could reasonably happen in 2011 at this rate.
01:42:26 <Ilari> 1.45 blocks have been burned in last 30 days...
01:42:49 <pikhq> ... Wow. The pace is accelerating.
01:43:22 <Ilari> It does vary quite a bit...
01:44:22 <pikhq> That's still a lot.
01:44:26 <Ilari> About 27.5 blocks are unallocated (not counting set-aside). At 1.45 blocks per month it would take about 19 months to allocate that (which would be in early 2012...).
01:44:55 <Ilari> Of course, there's no telling what happens after "X-day"
01:45:43 <pikhq> And I'm pretty sure that the actual depletion would be inconsistent, what with the RIRs and all.
01:46:12 <pikhq> There will likely be a point where only Africa or some such can make new IPv4 allocations.
01:48:50 <Ilari> Also LACNIC (South America) is pretty slow in allocations...
01:49:44 <pikhq> But, then, it's also entirely plausible that those will go quickly, as some multinationals make allocations on the remaining RIRs.
01:50:03 <Ilari> Actually, this model estimates (if one turns off options that couple the RIRs) that LACNIC will deplete last.
01:51:05 <pikhq> Hmm... APNIC first, I'd guess.
01:51:12 <pikhq> Followed very shortly by RIPE and ARIN.
01:51:57 <Ilari> Actually, if one couples the RIRs, this model only gives the first depletion and the final depletion (ALL non-set-aside addresses depleted).
01:53:34 <Ilari> Because idea of "RIR coupling" is that once the regional RIR IPv4 department has closed shop, just start asking other RIRs...
01:55:10 <pikhq> Shit goes crazy on X-day.
02:00:27 <Ilari> Heh... IPv6 status (in /64s): IANA unallocated: 2 283 083 118 518 730 752 (99.0% free), RIR unallocated: 22 139 902 037 196 796 (97.3% free), delegated: 619 988 657 766 404.
02:01:06 <Ilari> s/delegated/allocated/
02:01:32 <pikhq> Estimated depletion date?
02:02:14 <Ilari> So IPv6 address space usage (w.r.t. total available address space): 0.027%
02:02:50 <pikhq> (In, oh, yottaseconds.)
02:03:37 <zzo38> I should intend that once I write TeXnicard, that it produces better quality cards than both Magic Set Editor and better than Wizards of the Coast does. (And then WotC should use this program, too, maybe?)
02:08:06 <Ilari> For some reason, Brazil has ridiculous amounts of IPv6 space allocated: About 45% of the allocated IPv6 space of the _entiere_ world, over 56 /48s per capita.
02:08:55 <pikhq> I hope that's just because Brazil is awesome.
02:09:15 <Sgeo> We're seriously going to see each and every IP address be allocated?
02:09:26 <pikhq> Sgeo: In a few months.
02:09:26 <Sgeo> There's going to be no before-the-last-minute rush to IPv6?
02:10:10 <Sgeo> Will this finally make mainstream media news?
02:10:24 <Ilari> In /48s per capita metric, Netherlands Antilles is even more ridiculous: Over 190 /48s per capita...
02:11:02 <pikhq> Sgeo: Almost certainly.
02:11:06 <pikhq> Sgeo: "The Internet is full."
02:12:16 <Ilari> And then there is Nauru: Over 217 /48s per capita...
02:13:59 <Sgeo> What are all these IP addresses being used for, exactly?
02:14:29 <Sgeo> It occurs to be that the widescale NAT that people are talking about hasn't happened yet
02:14:32 * Sgeo facepalms self
02:14:38 <pikhq> The IPv4 addresses?
02:14:44 <zzo38> What does @\ mean in WEB?
02:14:53 <pikhq> All the several billion Internet devices.
02:15:24 <pikhq> Sgeo: Even widescale NATing of people could not be done before X-day, yeah.
02:15:55 <pikhq> Basically what we're looking at is all of a sudden, everybody needs to be on IPv6 or else they can't access any new anything.
02:15:58 <Ilari> Oh, and there are 123 358 751 031 296 /64s advertized.
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02:18:37 <Ilari> Quite a bit more than there are total IPv4 addresses... And each of those about 123 trillon) is a /64...
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02:33:38 <Ilari> Hmmh... I think LTE should have been IPv6-only...
02:33:59 <Ilari> There is absolutely no way IPv4 addresses would suffice for that... Not even close.
02:34:11 <Sgeo> Cell-phone stuff
02:34:25 <Ilari> Long Term Evolution, The 3GPP's "4G" (LTE Advanced is true 4G stuff).
02:34:32 <pikhq> There's about a 0% chance of IPv4 being useful on it.
02:34:43 <pikhq> Or, indeed, usable by the time it becomes the norm.
02:35:05 <Sgeo> Does LTE have a v6 option?
02:35:11 <Ilari> You would have to do NAT anyway, and if one could do that, better to do NAT64 at the same time...
02:35:36 <Ilari> Better should have! I think it does...
02:35:47 <pikhq> If it doesn't then it needs junked.
02:36:44 <Ilari> Yes, LTE does support IPv6.
02:37:40 <Ilari> At least Verizon LTE network requirements have MANDAORY IPv6 and OPTIONAL IPv4.
02:38:22 <pikhq> "I'm not into child pornography, whatever you read about me in the coming months." — Glenn Beck
02:38:57 <pikhq> Meþinkſ't þe man doþ proteſt too much.
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02:39:27 <Ilari> Yes, it is apparently possible to meet the network requirements without any kind of IPv4 support at all.
02:43:54 <zzo38> TeXnicard includes a programming language somewhat like 'dc', but arithmetic if is used, and there are some other differences too.
02:44:58 <Ilari> Also, first time I have seen X-day estimates less than 100 days away from time of estimate...
02:45:07 <zzo38> What does "X-day" means?
02:46:18 <Ilari> IANA IPv4 pool exhausted.
02:47:08 <Ilari> That means RIR pools start their final depletion.
02:47:54 <pikhq> It's the day the shit hits the fan.
02:47:57 <Sgeo> When do RIR pools finally get depeleted?
02:48:07 <Sgeo> Surely that's the day the shit hits the fan?
02:48:31 <Ilari> RIR pool depletion also depends on how badly shit hits the fan before it...
02:49:00 <Ilari> There's also problem that space for larger allocations get exhausted first...
02:49:04 <pikhq> After X-day, it is *possible* that there will be a mad rush to get IPv4 addresses by people who are ignorant of how this works.
02:49:30 <pikhq> Also, yes, the end of large allocations will occur well before final RIR depletion.
02:50:25 <Sgeo> Why am I trying to sit on a woobly table?
02:50:55 * Sgeo pretends that this is a PERFECT metaphor for the IPv4 situation
02:51:04 <zzo38> Sgeo: Because the chair is also woobly chair, too.
02:51:33 <Sgeo> If I stop responding, it will because I fell and died
02:51:47 <Ilari> Uh oh: Projected RIR Unallocated Address Pool Exhaustion: 12-Dec-2011 ... That other model is more optimistic about X-day but less optimistic about final depletion...
02:52:25 <Sgeo> Weren't there estimates set in previous years?
02:54:24 <Ilari> I would rather check estimates that are very recent, not some made years ago... All of the estimates I have looking are recomputed daily...
02:54:58 <Ilari> This one is new enough to have IANA_POOL at 11 (6+5 blocks).
02:58:03 <Ilari> (AFAIK, IANA_POOL is currently at 11, until ARIN gets those blocks, and then it falls to 9).
03:00:31 <Sgeo> I'm saying that estimates years ago put X-day years ago
03:00:56 <Sgeo> Um, at least, going by the video that was shown on the estimator tool page
03:08:57 <zzo38> I have seen some things which are IPv6 only. The gopher server for CLC-INTERCAL is IPv6 only (although there is a proxy to access it with IPv4), and I think the ASCII Star Wars movie is color only when you connect with IPv6.
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03:10:37 <Sgeo> Why is there a CLC-INTERCAL gopher implementation/
03:10:51 <Sgeo> Is the ASCII Star Wars movie faithful to the original?
03:11:09 <zzo38> Sgeo: I do not know the answer to either question.
03:12:22 <Ilari> Anyway, looks like recent events have caused sharp changes in the estimates (as much as sudden ~ three months change)...
03:12:34 <evincar> Sgeo: Props for crafting such a good pair of incongruous questions, though.
03:13:02 <Sgeo> evincar, there is in fact a logical connection
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03:13:44 <evincar> Sgeo: Well, as long as we're arbitrarily asserting that we make sense, have a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XxDAm8skm0
03:14:03 * Sgeo picks TaxiiRide up from Starchild Numerology
03:14:07 <evincar> I'd been videoblogging, then I realised that I sucked, then I figured out why I sucked.
03:14:21 * Sgeo drops TaxiiRide off at Riverview Bridge
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03:29:01 <Sgeo> Should I attempt to learn a Lisp?
03:33:22 <Sgeo> I attempted Scheme once
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03:33:29 <Sgeo> Maybe I'll play with Common Lisp
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04:31:18 <zzo38> What is a C program supposed to do if you shift a signed number?
04:31:52 <pikhq> Launch ze missiles!
04:34:34 <pikhq> mu! (mu!)[mu!]{無}‹む›«ム»
04:42:18 <zzo38> Do you expect this to work? register_value v=stack_ptr[-3]; int n=v.number; n=-(n<0?2:!n); stack_ptr[-3]=stack_ptr[n]; stack_ptr[n]=v; stack_drop(); stack_drop(); stack_drop();
04:44:11 <zzo38> Would you like a printer supporting the Plan 9 protocol?
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05:57:39 <Sgeo> http://nostalgiacritic.blip.tv/file/3878344/ potentially fatal
05:57:42 <Sgeo> You might die laughing
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09:13:03 <Vorpal> elliott (for log reading): seems some of the yellow messages in minecraft are in Swedish :D
09:19:18 <fizzie> "Jag känner en bot!" is there. There's also "Une baguette!", which is non-english.
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09:20:24 <fizzie> The first one is more Memeish than Swedish, though.
09:21:24 <fizzie> There is also "Flaxkikare!" which sounds Swedishy.
09:24:59 <fizzie> Incidentally, there are the following special calendar-triggered yellow strings: "Happy birthday, ez!", "Happy birthday, Notch!", "Merry X-mas!" and "Happy new year!".
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09:25:58 <fizzie> And if you somehow manage to make the splash file disappear from the .jar, I think it will write "missingno" as the yellow text.
09:27:54 <fizzie> See: http://p.zem.fi/minecraft-title-class
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10:16:16 <Vorpal> <fizzie> "Jag känner en bot!" is there. There's also "Une baguette!", which is non-english. <-- and "Herregud!"
10:17:11 <Vorpal> <fizzie> There is also "Flaxkikare!" which sounds Swedishy. <-- sounds like possible slang to me. Or jargon. Swedish sounding yes but not a word I ever heard.
10:17:52 <fizzie> "Flaxkikaren är en apparat som i stort hjälper seriefiguren Bobo att överumpla alla sina fiender. Med bara ett par "skruv", samt ramsan Vrid ringarna mot max, så dom bildar ordet FLAX!, kan Bobo villig ett ögonblick gripa sig var som helst (inom kikarens synfält)."
10:17:57 <fizzie> So, a fictional thing, then.
10:19:23 <Vorpal> never heard about that comic figure
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10:40:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, wtf: a floating island *of sand*
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11:08:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's interesting. What happens if you remove a bottom block from it?
11:12:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, it starts falling all all the other blocks of it too
11:13:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, as a chain effect
11:13:24 <Vorpal> there was some dirt and a few sand blocks on the other side of that dirt too
11:13:36 <Vorpal> the sand that was "shielded" by the dirt didn't fall
11:13:42 <fizzie> The physics go all "hey, what are you doing up there in the sky?"
11:14:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, I seen a lot of floating gravel in caverns with the post-halloween map generator.
11:14:25 <Vorpal> which acts the same way
11:15:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh and the leaves of trees don't disappear for me when the wood does. I thought that was fixed?
11:16:29 <fizzie> I don't know, trees have been a bit wonky always. There are some multiplayer-only bugs there too, I think.
11:17:13 <fizzie> In any case I guess when they do disappear, they tend to do it a bit randomly.
11:17:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, left for 10 days (in game time)...
11:17:57 <fizzie> In the multiplayer game I tend to hack down the leaves too, since that will generate saplings, and then I can replant them.
11:18:16 <Vorpal> I left it as a cube of leaves in the air to make it easy to spot if it started going away
11:19:45 <fizzie> In earlier games, I've managed to lose a couple of mines.
11:20:02 <fizzie> Once used some of the cart-drawing tools to relocate my place.
11:21:32 <fizzie> There was this in a multiplayer game: http://zem.fi/~fis/mctree.png
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11:32:31 <Vorpal> yellow text "Don't look directly at the bugs!" XD
11:32:38 <Vorpal> elliott (for log reading) ^
11:33:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, and I tend to hack them down as well, but it is annoying when there are some high ones you can't reach without building some temporary stairs or such
11:34:11 <Vorpal> those I want to go away automatically
11:34:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, also: uh, can you build above the clouds?
11:34:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, that screenshot looks like it
11:35:22 <Vorpal> <fizzie> In earlier games, I've managed to lose a couple of mines. <-- lose how?
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11:40:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh, seems like reeds block fluids. And they are fireproof.
11:40:22 <Vorpal> you can walk through them
11:40:28 <Vorpal> hm this might be interesting
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12:28:46 <fizzie> Sure, you can go up something like ten blocks above the top of of the clouds.
12:29:32 <fizzie> And "lose" as in walk away, never finding my way back.
12:31:44 <fizzie> You can make reed-airlocks, I think; OTOH you can do the same with doors or ladders.
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12:55:05 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, Emacs has started inserting junk when I open files.
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12:55:34 <Phantom_Hoover> ">1;2403;0c" appears at the start of every file I open, for some reason.
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13:05:21 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that's pretty bizarre
13:05:28 <ais523> you could check your .emacs for weirdnesses
13:19:35 <fizzie> It looks vaguely terminal-codeish.
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14:05:17 <ais523> hmm, Apple are busy confusing everyone by open-sourcing Java for OS X (which was previously Apple-proprietary)
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14:49:48 <ais523> hmm, http://returnvalues.useperl.at/ is a vaguely interesting site
14:50:15 <ais523> it enumerates unusual ways to write boolean true in Perl (modules have to return boolean true upon initialisation in order to avoid errors)
14:50:29 <ais523> and pretty much any string or number is true as a boolean (except '' and 0)
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15:04:58 <elliott> 21:57:39 <Sgeo> http://nostalgiacritic.blip.tv/file/3878344/ potentially fatal
15:05:00 <elliott> 21:57:39 <Sgeo> http://nostalgiacritic.blip.tv/#
15:05:05 <elliott> 21:57:39 <Sgeo> http://nostalgiacritic
15:05:07 <elliott> 21:57:39 <Sgeo> nostalgiacritic
15:05:41 <elliott> 17:34:40 <Sgeo> elliott, link me to the rant
15:05:46 <elliott> No, fuck you, find things for yourself for once.
15:05:56 <elliott> Also I never said to look at the Loper OS site, Phantom_Hoover did.
15:06:44 <elliott> 01:19:18 <fizzie> "Jag känner en bot!" is there. There's also "Une baguette!", which is non-english.
15:06:45 <elliott> 01:20:24 <fizzie> The first one is more Memeish than Swedish, though.
15:06:49 <elliott> Indeed; now that is in my head.
15:07:56 <elliott> 03:15:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh and the leaves of trees don't disappear for me when the wood does. I thought that was fixed?
15:07:56 <elliott> 03:15:39 <Vorpal> err s/wood/logs/
15:07:59 <elliott> You mean when you punch them?
15:09:09 <elliott> ais523: well, technically, it lists all the ones used on CPAN
15:09:19 <elliott> well, boring ones filtered out
15:09:47 <elliott> ais523: for the record, that site (which I've seen before) is terribly formatted on a wide browser
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15:12:45 <elliott> ais523: 'end of WWW::Ohloh::API::Language'2WWW::Ohloh::API::Message
15:27:38 <Vorpal> elliott, they should when not supported by a tree
15:28:13 <Vorpal> <fizzie> And "lose" as in walk away, never finding my way back. <-- I mark my trail with torches when I explore
15:28:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Incidentally, it's very useful IMO to carry around a few blocks of dirt to start off with, so you can elevate yourself to the top of a tree.
15:28:40 <Vorpal> elliott, nor for me. But they are supposed to, after a while.
15:28:59 <Vorpal> elliott, well, the next day most should be gone at least
15:29:08 <elliott> well i never stay in one place for that long :)
15:29:28 <Vorpal> elliott, some probably will start going away within a few minutes (real world time)
15:29:56 <Vorpal> elliott, elevate to top of tree. Err why?
15:30:17 <elliott> Vorpal: To punch all of it.
15:30:23 <elliott> Vorpal: I suppose you could do it from below, but where's the fun in that?
15:30:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well depends on how high the tree is
15:30:35 <elliott> (Just realised you could do it from below :P)
15:31:09 <Vorpal> elliott, I generally farm them with a ceiling (note: make sure to add lots of light, otherwise the saplings won't grow).
15:31:22 <Vorpal> that way they will never be too tall to reach from ground
15:31:23 <elliott> Vorpal: I just use wild trees.
15:32:27 <Vorpal> elliott, not enough of them where my base is. Biomes near my base: desert, savanna, desert, plains, desert :P
15:32:58 <Vorpal> well, that is for the game I started with the new generator
15:33:34 <Vorpal> the older game (the one with all those weird blocks on the map) is somewhat better
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15:43:06 <ais523> <elliott> ais523: for the record, that site (which I've seen before) is terribly formatted on a wide browser <--- you'll hate what Wikia did with their skin, then
15:43:23 <ais523> the formatting change was so bad that there were huge protests, so they actually changed the ToU to prevent people changing the skin back
15:43:24 <elliott> ais523: Hell, I hated the *previous* skin.
15:43:33 <ais523> and as a result a whole load of wikis left in droves
15:43:39 <elliott> ais523: This one is too bad to even have a superlative to describe its badness with.
15:43:44 <ais523> the previous skin was a paragon of beauty compared to this one
15:43:51 <ais523> for bonus points, it's fixed-width
15:44:07 <ais523> at around 600 pixels for the content area
15:44:10 <elliott> ais523: I don't mind fixed-width text, as long as it's in ems.
15:44:23 <elliott> I can't tell whether this one is (my browser zooms everything no matter what).
15:44:49 <elliott> ais523: Incidentally, the *only* things I've heard about Wikia in years have been them being evil.
15:45:27 <elliott> ais523: First with Sgeo's Creatures Wiki -- they bought up creatureswiki.com and I think another TLD, redirected them to the wikia, and refused (!) to give them up to the admins. Then the skin change...
15:45:30 <ais523> indeed; they started out decent and got progressively more evil as time went on
15:45:43 <elliott> ais523: If "Creatures" and "wiki" weren't generic, they could be sued to hell and back.
15:45:51 <elliott> They probably still could with their obvious intent.
15:46:07 <ais523> nethack.wikia.com has departed to nethackwiki.com, now, skin changed to Vector
15:46:12 <ais523> and we're abandoning the old site
15:46:15 <ais523> (I mention this so Sgeo knows)
15:46:23 <elliott> ais523: He's an admin on the new one for whatever reason.
15:46:36 <ais523> elliott: they copied the user DB and password hash DB over
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15:46:39 <elliott> ais523: And every wiki I've seen that's left -- including ones way before this -- have had their leaving covered up and Wikia trying to keep contributors coming to theirs.
15:46:56 <ais523> (I'm a little concerned that wikia even leaves password hash DBs open, even if they're properly hashed and salted...)
15:47:27 <elliott> ais523: The Creatures Wiki were going to put the notice in their sitenotice, but then Wikia disabled editing sitenotices, so they can't do that now.
15:47:45 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if that's why they disabled sitenotices?
15:47:55 <ais523> I thought it was by accident, originally, at least that's what they said it was
15:48:39 <elliott> "We are switching over all the default skins (for anon users) to our new skin "Monaco" this week." -- latest thread on Creatures Wiki's main page talk, April 2008
15:48:56 <elliott> ais523: WoWWiki have already moved, and that's gotta be like 95% of Wikia's traffic right there.
15:49:08 <elliott> ais523: Wait, they haven't moved quite yet.
15:49:15 <ais523> elliott: over 10%, apparently
15:49:23 <ais523> and they're in the process of moving
15:49:36 <ais523> also, Monaco >>> Oasis
15:49:44 <elliott> ais523: Indeed. Still pretty bad though.
15:49:55 <ais523> I could tolerate Monaco with AdBlock on and turned to maximum (Wikia has some of the most obnoxious ads I've ever seen)
15:50:12 <ais523> for bonus points, Oasis apparently causes health problems
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15:50:29 <ais523> certain sorts of asymmetric patterns can cause eyestrain in various people, leading to headaches
15:50:36 <elliott> ais523: I'm a member of a small wiki (two hundred pages or so) that Angela actually *made a personal message* to, asking us if we'd like to move to Wikia, in 2007 or 2008, and actually replied to it when everyone was like "No thanks this is fine".
15:50:41 <elliott> Good thing that never happened.
15:51:08 <elliott> Hmm, actually, closer to a thousand articles now.
15:51:23 <ais523> elliott: I'm not convinced Wikia was evil in 2007
15:51:31 <elliott> ais523: It was February 2008. Just checked.
15:51:32 <ais523> it's just evilised over time
15:51:38 <elliott> ais523: So only a few months from Monaco.
15:52:04 <elliott> ais523: apparently it's because they were launching a Network(TM) for sites of general topic similar to $general_topic_of_this_one
15:52:31 <elliott> ais523: wow, and then came back to ask again in September 2009!
15:53:54 <ais523> does your small wiki in question have ads?
15:54:06 <ais523> that's enough reason to not move to Wikia, I think, if you don't
15:54:15 <Phantom_Hoover> No way that you could have a company run by an objectivist be nice!
15:56:45 <elliott> ais523: it also has a decent sysop :P
15:57:28 <elliott> ais523: "WYWIWYG" --Angela, before fixing it immediately after
15:57:39 <elliott> now to twist that typo into an anti-wikia acronym
15:57:58 <elliott> Wikia: Yes, We'll Integrate Wikis Y? G?
15:57:58 <ais523> "what you want is what you get" is the obvious reading to me, which is more or less the opposite of Wikia nowadays
15:59:34 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I don't even remember "Quartz"
15:59:51 <elliott> clearly, it was so horrible that no wiki didn't switch to monobook
16:01:17 <ais523> meanwhile, YouTube has been throwing up weirder and weirder errors as time goes on
16:01:35 <ais523> <YouTube> 500 Internal Server Error Sorry, something went wrong. A team of highly trained monkeys has been dispatched to deal with this situation. If you see them, show them this information:
16:01:37 <elliott> ais523: wrt the eye strain: wikia banned an optometrist for stating that
16:01:43 <ais523> followed by a huge block of base64
16:01:50 <elliott> <ais523> followed by a huge block of base64
16:02:00 <elliott> I figure it's all the CGI-ish parameters, and the like
16:02:02 <ais523> presumably it's a Google error rather than YouTube error, then
16:02:18 <elliott> I think "highly trained monkeys" is YouTube.
16:02:26 <elliott> With Google I think it links you to a support team where you can report a problem and include that.
16:02:36 <ais523> I've seen something like 10 different failure modes from YouTube over the last month or so
16:04:43 <elliott> ais523: I'd like a userscript of some sort that turns all YouTube links into a centred-vertically-and-horizontally HTML 5 version of the video on the highest quality setting and strips away everything else.
16:04:51 <elliott> The Flash player is terrible, the comments are beyond inane, everything else is fluff.
16:05:11 <elliott> quietube comes close but doesn't do the HTML5.
16:11:54 <elliott> 17:35:01 <Ilari> Warning: The more optimistic IPv4 depletion counter estimates IANA depletion at mid-March now... :-/
16:13:57 <ais523> I'm interested in what will happen when IPv4 runs out
16:14:23 <ais523> also, there are sane YouTube commentors, who often manage to parody the stupid ones
16:14:36 <ais523> I saw one where the author of a video managed to reverse a likely comment before it even came up, which was hilarious
16:14:46 <elliott> ais523: Current predictions are: chaos. Even though the RIRs and whatnot still have to get exhausted, the models predict that in a year or two at most...
16:14:58 <elliott> ais523: Nobody's exactly scrambling to upgrade their infrastructure to be IPv6 ready.
16:15:24 <ais523> I'm trying to work out if it'll be harmful chaos or interesting chaos
16:15:32 <ais523> I'm hoping for the second
16:15:37 <elliott> ais523: I would predict some economic effects outside the Internet ("We can't add another machine." "Why not?" "We don't have a number to give it.").
16:15:46 <elliott> ais523: But not *too* many as there'll be a lot of NATting anyway. Still...
16:16:19 <elliott> ais523: Mainstream news coverage is likely to be very distorted ("We're out of Internet! Providers are scrambling to switch to the NEW Internet, with more space! BUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THAT RUNS TRY? Let's go over to our reporter, a homeless bum we found five minutes ago screaming 'Eyepee veesix'.")
16:16:39 <elliott> ais523: And netizens are likely to scramble to the nearest rescue boat^W^WIPv6 provider.
16:22:27 <elliott> 19:08:57 <zzo38> I have seen some things which are IPv6 only. The gopher server for CLC-INTERCAL is IPv6 only (although there is a proxy to access it with IPv4), and I think the ASCII Star Wars movie is color only when you connect with IPv6.
16:22:27 <elliott> 19:10:37 <Sgeo> Why is there a CLC-INTERCAL gopher implementation/
16:22:38 <elliott> ais523: Please explain the situation to Sgeo.
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16:49:46 <elliott> asiekierka: If you don't point me to a mouse with three actual buttons *and* a scroll wheel I'll do something terrible.
16:50:29 <elliott> http://h30094.www3.hp.com/product.asp?sku=2545791 "Great, now where is the scroll wheel?"
16:52:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: In the multiplayer game of ours, there's a largeish common mine; at the bottom, pretty near the bedrock (five blocks or so up) there's one piece of dirt, and then a maybe 6x6 rectangular shaft all the way up to the top of the map, and a glass ceiling; and on that one block of dirt a largeish tree grows.
16:53:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess the reason is simply "because it is cool"?
16:54:31 <Vorpal> elliott, my mouse has 3 buttons and a scrollwheel
16:54:47 <fizzie> I've torch-marked the way to the habited regions from the spawn-point of that game, too; got tired of having to deduce it, even though it isn't far.
16:54:48 <Vorpal> a tiltable scrollwheel even
16:55:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, how does it work in multiplayer with regards to inventory when connecting?
16:55:43 <Vorpal> do you keep it from last time or?
16:56:25 <fizzie> It's kept, yes. I don't know whether it's saved client-side or server-side; maybe server.
16:56:56 <fizzie> Funny thing: server doesn't track the "health" of objects either, so if you drop your diamond pick and re-pick it up, the 'durability' thing will be reset. So you can use it indefinitely.
16:57:19 <fizzie> Hm, can't connect to minecraft.net at the moment.
16:59:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway, is there any multiplayer server that is good for someone who never did multiplayer in minecraft before? Free to build what you want, and not some special-generated game map style.
17:00:04 <fizzie> I don't really know: I haven't played on anything else than our private thing.
17:01:23 <fizzie> Well, it's named after an office room of the CS building at the university. I guess there's just me and sometimes ineiros there. I have heard rumours of a third guy, who supposedly built a thing, but I don't know who he/she would be.
17:02:20 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, my mouse has 3 buttons and a scrollwheel
17:03:00 <fizzie> "In rare occasions, most likely due to glitches, nether biomes can be found in the normal world. " Heh, that sounds pretty strange. (Haven't had it happen.)
17:03:31 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, they appear as huge blocks, because of the walls and ceiling.
17:03:55 <Gregor> "Most likely due to glitches" is such a meaningless reason :P
17:03:59 <elliott> Vorpal: (I thought you meant a TrackPoint.)
17:04:12 <Vorpal> elliott, on the bottom of the mouse it says "Microsoft Comfort Optical Mouse 3000 v1.0"
17:04:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Scroll wheels do *not* count as third buttons.
17:04:57 <Gregor> Dood, the v1.1s are SO much better.
17:05:05 <Vorpal> elliott, no, it has a button on the side
17:05:17 <Vorpal> elliott, of course the scrollwheel is clickable as well
17:05:23 <elliott> Vorpal: I realise that. EVERY mouse has that.
17:05:34 <Vorpal> elliott, that is a third button obviously
17:05:40 <elliott> Vorpal: *It is not what I want.*
17:05:46 <Vorpal> elliott, what is it you want then
17:06:00 <Vorpal> if not a mouse with 3 button + scrollwheel that is tiltable and clickable?
17:06:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Three actual buttons and the scroll wheel jammed in 4D space or wherever; I won't specify further than that because other people can design mice better than me.
17:06:24 <elliott> Gregor: I use the middle button extensively, and always have three fingers on the mouse, one for each button. With a scroll wheel, my middle finger is elevated, which is very uncomfortable, and furthermore, the button is harder to click than the other two.
17:06:32 <Vorpal> elliott, uh. So placing that extra button on the side under the thumb doesn't count?
17:06:36 <elliott> (It is even more uncomfortable when I scroll with my middle finger but keep the other fingers down.)
17:06:37 <Vorpal> which is what mine has
17:06:47 <fizzie> elliott: You can buy this thing, which has three actual buttons and *two* scroll wheels, but they're in the side: http://ergo.contourdesign.com/uploads/images/products/large/Black%20CMO%20front%20angle.jpg
17:07:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably not. I would be willing to consider it if the mouse is very well-designed.
17:07:01 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Dood, the v1.1s are SO much better. <-- what XD
17:07:08 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, seem that. No thanks :P
17:07:11 <Vorpal> elliott, no one else hold a mouse like that :P
17:07:24 <elliott> fizzie: http://trendsupdates.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/OpenOffice_Mouse.jpg
17:07:25 <Vorpal> two fingers then move one to scroll wheel as needed
17:07:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: Hey, I do the three-finger thing too.
17:07:42 <elliott> Vorpal: It is the standard Unix mouse grip. Of course, that is now extinct.
17:07:51 <elliott> Thanks to Windows and, well, X11 WIMP UIs.
17:08:05 <elliott> (The Macintosh isn't to blame as it had one button at the time.)
17:08:16 <Gregor> elliott: Of course, the equivalent Microsoft Office mouse would have no buttons on top, and a slideout panel with dozens of buttons with obscure labels.
17:08:22 <Vorpal> elliott, http://trendsupdates.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/OpenOffice_Mouse.jpg <-- two wtf: 1) the product 2) the name
17:08:27 <Vorpal> it must be photoshopped
17:08:49 <elliott> Vorpal: It's now the WarMouse Meta since OpenOffice complained that it isn't approved.
17:08:51 <Gregor> Vorpal: You suck at getting jokes more than usual today :P
17:09:09 <elliott> Vorpal: It was designed to be useful with word processors apparently. They now market it as a gaming mouse.
17:09:09 <Gregor> elliott: ...?!?!?!?!?!
17:09:12 <elliott> Never have to move to the toolbar, etc.
17:09:14 <elliott> Gregor: http://warmouse.com/
17:09:27 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.boingboing.net/images/oomousep3.jpg
17:09:47 <Vorpal> how do you actually hit those buttons reliably?
17:09:51 <elliott> Gregor: It is a great unintentional joke at OpenOffice's expense, though :P
17:09:53 <fizzie> elliott: You must get this mouse, it's so "you": http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/75555_01.jpg
17:09:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Genetic deformities.
17:10:00 <elliott> Vorpal: 12 fingers is preferable.
17:10:11 <elliott> Vorpal: (In-breeding may be required.)
17:10:13 <Vorpal> elliott, small ones (unless the mouse is HUGE)
17:10:23 <elliott> fizzie: ...what, exactly, is so "me" about that? :-P
17:10:40 <fizzie> elliott: Well, you know, you're obviously such a World of Warcraft guy!
17:10:53 <elliott> Oxford, England, June 28, 2010 - WarMouse today announced that its much-anticipated multi-button laser joystick mouse is now shipping. With a patented design featuring 18 buttons, an analog joystick, and a 5600-CPI laser sensor, the Meta has been well received by gamers and commercial software developers alike. Containing twice as much memory as the original Macintosh, the WarMouse(R) Meta holds 3,072 commands in 64 mouse modes, allowing the mous
17:10:53 <elliott> e to completely change its functionality on the fly according to the active application.
17:11:00 <elliott> Why are these people in Oxford?
17:11:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, that mouse looks uncomfortable
17:11:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: But it has rune buttons.
17:11:13 * Gregor wonders when Blizzard is going to sue Minecraft for having a name ending in "craft"
17:11:15 <elliott> Did they flunk Mouse Design and not bother to relocate?
17:11:31 <elliott> I love how there's 64 mouse modes.
17:11:41 <elliott> "Hands-on reviews of the mouse from various technology sites have been uniformly positive:"
17:11:42 <Vorpal> elliott, also why does it need to be in the mouse
17:11:49 <Vorpal> surely it is better done in software on the computer
17:12:04 <elliott> I refuse to believe their excerpt of http://www.engadget.com/2010/05/03/warmouse-meta-review/ is representative.
17:12:08 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, that's WarMouse too.
17:12:20 <elliott> Or maybe it's just a comparison shot.
17:12:46 <elliott> [[# "There's no doubt that the $79.99 Meta with its 512K of memory is the most advanced mouse we've ever seen - each of its 18 buttons along with their double-click functions can be configured for different applications, and its analog joystick can be customized to perform eight different commands.... The WarMouse Meta goes where no mouse has gone before." - Engadget]]
17:13:18 <fizzie> http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/97047_01.jpg -- it has "Onboard Memory 64Kb", because that's obviously the main criterion when choosing a mouse. You don't want your mouse to run out of memory.
17:13:26 <elliott> "The WarMouse Meta goes where no mouse has gone before. However, at the end of the day we can't help but wonder who could possibly remember how to use so many buttons on a single gadget."
17:13:39 <fizzie> Also "5600DPI twin laser" and "rapid fire mode".
17:13:40 <elliott> fizzie: You could make the display print out the memory.
17:13:45 <Gregor> I don't remember how to use all the keys on my keyboard.
17:13:47 <elliott> fizzie: Or run a shell on it.
17:14:04 <fizzie> You can independently configure the resolution on the X and Y axes, too.
17:14:23 <elliott> Now point me to a mouse with three buttons.
17:15:02 <fizzie> There's that one Razer mouse which has a numpad in the side, too.
17:15:05 <fizzie> http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/94345_01.jpg
17:15:26 <fizzie> (The "Razer Naga MMOG Mouse".)
17:17:05 <Vorpal> why do they do the shortcuts in the mouse
17:17:07 <fizzie> elliott: No, no, actually, get this! http://www.verkkokauppa.com/files/images/85/2_118146-450x450.jpeg -- it's obviously made for cyborgs like you, that can reconfigure their hand.
17:17:14 <Vorpal> surely doing it on the computer is better
17:17:26 <Vorpal> could be mapped in the input layer of any sane system.
17:17:38 <Vorpal> I'm sure evdev could do anything that it could and more
17:18:04 <Vorpal> if not, it shouldn't be hard to get it to work some other way
17:18:18 <fizzie> I can't make heads or tails out of that last one.
17:18:33 <elliott> Vorpal: They're for Windows and you know it and you're just trolling.
17:18:43 <elliott> Razer mice are... usually a bit saner than that.
17:18:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's the official product image at a web-store, I wouldn't think so.
17:18:51 <Vorpal> elliott, would it be hard to do it on the computer for windows?
17:18:56 <fizzie> elliott: It's actually "Saitek Cyborg R.A.T 7", but still.
17:19:09 <elliott> They're even advertising a similar model on the homepage: http://www.razerzone.com/
17:19:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, saitek is usually saner than that
17:19:14 <elliott> fizzie: I meant the mousepad one.
17:19:21 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, okay. Right.
17:19:23 <elliott> I guess Vorpal meant the other one.
17:19:41 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant the one fizzie linked
17:19:43 <fizzie> I guess it could be they're showing the R.A.T in its opened-up configuration, and those things are for adjusting the weights or such.
17:19:51 <Vorpal> <fizzie> elliott: No, no, actually, get this! http://www.verkkokauppa.com/files/images/85/2_118146-450x450.jpeg -- it's obviously made for cyborgs like you, that can reconfigure their hand.
17:19:58 <elliott> fizzie: Most likely, but I'd prefer not to think that :)
17:20:21 <elliott> Yet still nobody has linked me to a three-button mouse with a scroll wheel except Vorpal, whose entry is questionable.
17:20:38 <Vorpal> elliott, why is my entry questionable?
17:20:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Because the third button is on the thumb. I'll still consider it, but I'm skeptical.
17:21:19 <elliott> Vorpal: It still doesn't let me have my three-finger hold comfortably, due to the elevated scroll wheel.
17:21:51 <Vorpal> elliott, you want the scrollwheel under the thumb or such instead?
17:22:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, if you want a scrollwheel you have to put it somewhere :P
17:22:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Which is a decision I will leave to the designers of these mice, who are probably better at thinking of things like that and I.
17:23:04 <Vorpal> elliott, btw my mouse is very comfortable. The first one of that model that I bought lasted about 5 years or so. The replacement I bought was the same model. Because the mouse is awesome.
17:23:17 <Vorpal> and 5 years is more than any other mouse I had lasted
17:23:21 <fizzie> elliott: There's another "vertical mouse" that I guess has a layout a bit like you want, except it's turned all sideways: http://www.evoluent.com/vm3_med.jpg
17:23:50 <fizzie> That's like three buttons with a scroll wheel between 1/2, and one extra buttony-looking thing "below" 3, and then the whole thing has been tilted sideways.
17:24:03 <elliott> fizzie: I know of that one.
17:24:09 <elliott> I am not convinced it would be comfortable to scroll with.
17:24:16 <elliott> Especially that topmost button.
17:24:36 <fizzie> There's one more button behind it. But yes, it does look a bit suspicious.
17:24:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, if that was a boat, there would be lifeboats leaving it now XD
17:25:21 <Gregor> I have a friend who swears by the Evoluent mouse.
17:25:22 <elliott> "The goal of the GNU PDF project is to develop and provide a free, high-quality, complete, and portable set of libraries and programs to manage the PDF file format (ISO 32000), and associated technologies."
17:25:31 <Gregor> Then again, he's German, so y'know, don't trust him :P
17:25:32 <elliott> I like how they completely ignore poppler.
17:25:46 <Vorpal> elliott, what license does poppler have?
17:25:48 <elliott> Gregor: Bah! Ergonomics can go fuck itself.
17:26:07 <elliott> Vorpal: But it can't write PDFs.
17:26:16 <Vorpal> elliott, eh. What about pdftex?
17:26:34 <Vorpal> elliott, and cups? and so on?
17:26:46 <elliott> Vorpal: manually or via postscript, I would guess.
17:26:58 <elliott> "Skype is seducing free software users into using proprietary software, often two users at a time."
17:27:15 <fizzie> elliott: I take back my "numpad in a mouse" comment earlier, because some company called Sandberg makes an *actual* numbad that is also a mouse: http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/77747_01.jpg
17:27:15 <Vorpal> elliott, well, via postscript or manually are the sane ways afaik. pdf is not very editable.
17:27:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Thus why they want a library.
17:27:44 <elliott> fizzie: Hardest thing to use as a mouse ever :P
17:27:46 <Vorpal> elliott, right. So base it off cups code?
17:28:00 <elliott> Vorpal: I imagine CUPS code is very ugly.
17:28:05 <fizzie> elliott: It even has an "Excel" button.
17:28:13 <elliott> "GNU General Public License, GNU Lesser General Public License, with proprietary exceptions for software that links against CUPS to run on Apple operating systems"
17:28:20 <Gregor> elliott: It's everything an accountant needs in one box :P
17:28:25 <elliott> Vorpal: CUPS' license sure is nice.
17:28:36 <Vorpal> <fizzie> elliott: It even has an "Excel" button. <-- where?
17:28:38 <elliott> Gregor: Anything that makes accountants' lives harder is good enough for me!
17:28:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/77747_01.jpg
17:28:53 <Vorpal> elliott, missed it first time around
17:28:53 <elliott> "CUPS is the standards-based, open source printing system developed by Apple Inc. for Mac OS® X and other UNIX®-like operating systems."
17:29:10 <fizzie> I think there's some sort of mode-selector in the side for numpadness/mouseness.
17:29:22 <Gregor> elliott: Easy, just avoid printing :P
17:29:41 <elliott> Gregor: I do that already, I don't believe in paper. But I would like a nice black-and-white laser one to use for reading papers...
17:29:54 <Vorpal> elliott, well, apple bought the original company that produced it iirc
17:30:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah. And the source code.
17:30:35 <Vorpal> elliott, what is the license though?
17:30:36 <elliott> "In February 2007, Apple Inc. hired chief developer Michael Sweet and purchased the CUPS source code."
17:30:40 <elliott> Vorpal: "GNU General Public License, GNU Lesser General Public License, with proprietary exceptions for software that links against CUPS to run on Apple operating systems"
17:30:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Which is just beyond terrible.
17:30:57 <elliott> [[CUPSTM is provided under the GNU General Public License ("GPL") and GNU Library General Public License ("LGPL"), Version 2, with exceptions for Apple operating systems and the OpenSSL toolkit. A copy of the exceptions and licenses follow this introduction.]]
17:31:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Exception for OpenSSL too! Fuck that.
17:31:21 * elliott wonders if anything else can print on a Linux system :-P
17:31:33 <elliott> (Things I don't need, hypothetically: A web interface.)
17:31:45 <elliott> Or hell, a queue. A printer queue is a shell script.
17:31:46 <Vorpal> the old line printer stuff
17:32:09 * Gregor wonders why Apple chose to release that under GPL ... they hate GPL so much ...
17:32:22 <elliott> Vorpal: But yes, I suppose Linux probably does still support lp, at least until they decide it's not modern enough.
17:32:26 <elliott> Then we all get to use CUPS!
17:32:30 <elliott> Gregor: Because it was already GPL.
17:32:37 <elliott> Gregor: It's not Apple code originally.
17:32:53 <Gregor> It's not? Then how did they get the exceptions in for linking against Apple ...
17:32:57 <elliott> Gregor: And I doubt the lead developer would have joined Apple to work on it if they said "and change the license, too".
17:33:09 <elliott> Gregor: I imagine they rather wanted probably the only person who knew the codebase intimately.
17:33:23 <elliott> lp: Error - no default destination available.
17:33:44 <fizzie> $ dpkg-query -S `which lp`
17:33:44 <fizzie> cups-client: /usr/bin/lp
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17:34:01 <elliott> Well, I'm sure I'd get /dev/lp0 if I plugged a printer in. Right? Haha, unlikely, I'll bet.
17:34:18 <elliott> And then I could TALK TO IT! Manually!
17:34:22 <Gregor> elliott: Idonno, looks like Apple purchased the source code, and they're nothing if not douchebags, so it's surprising they didn't relicense it.
17:34:36 <elliott> Gregor: 'cuz they hired the lead developer.
17:34:44 <elliott> Gregor: Who licensed it under the GPL. Presumably on purpose.
17:34:57 <fizzie> elliott: "aptitude install lpr" will probably get you the old spooling system, then you can plug in external programs as drivers into printcap.
17:35:06 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, I see that, but that still seems surprisingly lacking in douchebaggery for Apple ...
17:35:11 <elliott> Gregor: "Hi, we want to buy your code and hire you to work on it." vs "Hi, we want to buy your code, completely relicense it, and then hire you to work on it so we can release it with a license you don't want."
17:35:23 <fizzie> (Alternatively, "lprng" for what I think used to be the de-facto default before CUPS.)
17:35:24 <elliott> Gregor: Note: Apple weren't nearly as douchebaggy until recently.
17:35:24 <Sgeo> You are tearing me apart, elliott
17:35:44 <elliott> LPRng is a printing system compatible with the Berkeley printing system. It provides printer spooling and network print server functionality using the Line Printer Daemon protocol.
17:35:44 <elliott> It is an open-source project hosted on SourceForge and implemented by many open-source Unix-like operating systems. LPRng was abandoned by its author in early 2005, then picked back up by new developers in October 2006.[1] A new release was made available in December 2006 [2] (LPRng-3.8.29 RC 1).
17:35:58 <elliott> fizzie: What if I want SysV lp? :-P
17:36:13 <elliott> fizzie: Didn't they release the SysV code?
17:36:19 <elliott> Not that SysV was any good.
17:36:28 <elliott> lpr appears to be the BSD one, indeed.
17:36:28 <Sgeo> elliott, watch The Room
17:36:53 <elliott> This is the BSD printer spooler and associated utilities. You can use this for
17:36:53 <elliott> local and remote printers.
17:37:04 <elliott> # lp -- the user command to print
17:37:04 <elliott> # lpstat -- shows the current print queue
17:37:04 <elliott> # cancel -- deletes a job from the print queue
17:37:15 <elliott> It takes System V to create commands for what are literally filesystem operations.
17:37:45 <Gregor> You mean commands like "rm" and "touch"? :P
17:37:56 <elliott> Gregor: I mean duplicates. :P
17:38:19 <Gregor> By making them commands, they can potentially (not actually) change how things are stored *shrugs*
17:38:27 <elliott> Gregor: The filesystem is an abstract interface.
17:38:32 <fizzie> elliott: I don't know if anyone's packaged it; all Linux systems (in the pre-CUPS era, anyway) I met used BSD lpr-derived things.
17:38:34 <elliott> Gregor: That's like saying "Well, yeah, but they could change their public API!"
17:38:46 <elliott> Gregor: Filesystem hierarchy != literal directory structure, as was the original intention of Unix, as is implemented in Plan 9 :-P
17:38:56 <elliott> lp: $ cat my-foo.ps >/dev/printer0/new
17:39:01 <elliott> lpstat: $ ls /dev/printer0
17:39:10 <elliott> cancel: $ rm /dev/printer0/N
17:39:17 <Gregor> elliott: So, you're not happy that SysV wasn't Plan 9?
17:40:09 <elliott> Gregor: Well, you *do* wear clashing colours on purpose, so it's possible you just have terrible taste overall :P
17:41:38 <elliott> Jimbo: Just because you've made a new photo doesn't mean I'm going to fucking give you any money.
17:41:50 <elliott> "Please read this appeal from our founder and then donate to Wikimedia UK using the form opposite."
17:42:03 <fizzie> elliott: Can you look him at his soulful eyes and not give him any money!
17:42:04 <elliott> "Please scroll down to the bottom of the page, and then scroll up, because why should spatial order reflect reading order???"
17:42:25 <elliott> fizzie: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070105052649/wikiality/images/d/d8/Captain_Jimbo_on_the_SS_Glamour_Photography.jpg
17:42:40 <elliott> fizzie: They should put that on the donation banners.
17:43:29 <Vorpal> <elliott> fizzie: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070105052649/wikiality/images/d/d8/Captain_Jimbo_on_the_SS_Glamour_Photography.jpg <-- photoshopped or?
17:43:43 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, different Jimbo then?
17:43:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Before starting Wikipedia, Jimbo founded Bomis, a dot-com.
17:44:00 <elliott> Vorpal: [[The rings are currently categorized broadly as "Babe", "Entertainment", "Sports", "Adult", "Science fiction", and "Other".[2] The "Adult", "Babe", and "Entertainment" categories are the most frequently updated and the most popular.]]
17:44:13 <elliott> Vorpal: So, uh, he basically ran a softcore pornish portal.
17:44:19 <elliott> Thus http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070105052649/wikiality/images/d/d8/Captain_Jimbo_on_the_SS_Glamour_Photography.jpg
17:44:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Which was advertising or, uh, god knows what.
17:44:43 <elliott> [[Bomis is best known for having supported the creation of the free-content online encyclopedia projects Nupedia and Wikipedia. Bomis hosted Nupedia in 2000, and Larry Sanger was hired to manage and edit that project. A year into the development of Nupedia, Bomis decided the project was too expensive[citation needed], and a so called "wiki" was set up as a way to solicit low-cost new drafts for Nupedia.]]
17:44:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Wikipedia: Because it's cheaper.
17:45:06 <elliott> So much for a philanthropic desire to spread global knowledge :P
17:47:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Have any of WP's detractors ever actually made a site that addresses their criticisms of it?
17:47:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Citizendium is the closest, and we all know what happened there...
17:48:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "You don't like it, make something better!" is a phrase common among complete morons.
17:48:19 <elliott> Has Roger Ebert ever made a movie?
17:49:05 <Phantom_Hoover> When "something better" has _manifestly_ never been created, it throws some doubt on their claims.
17:49:40 <elliott> "Wikipedia sucks!" does not mean "Wikipedia sucks, and we could easily fix it!".
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17:49:54 <elliott> You have a very strange view of criticism in general.
17:50:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, saying "X sucks and there's nothing that can be done about it" is completely unhelpful.
17:50:12 <elliott> Vorpal: http://xiatek.org/?p=139
17:50:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "X sucks and I don't know what to do about it".
17:51:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Better, if you're actually trying to think of things to do about it.
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17:51:21 <fizzie> elliott: Switch to a different display server! (Eh, eh, eh.)
17:51:32 <elliott> fizzie: I considered making that joke.
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17:54:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Now to try and make a world with seed 0 :P
17:54:29 <Vorpal> elliott, well I won't use that thing
17:54:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, you have to download it and say "mono foo.exe".
17:54:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm more interested in built up worlds.
17:54:53 <elliott> Vorpal: The point is that it's like a screenshot except you can move around it...
17:54:58 <elliott> Vorpal: You're meant to copy real seeds from actual worlds.
17:55:13 <fizzie> elliott: Also you have to "Click several buttons and then tick a checkbox", that's pretty bothersome.
17:55:14 <elliott> Vorpal: i.e., see something interesting, share a 50-byte seed rather than a big png, and let other people see it and move around it too.
17:55:18 <Vorpal> elliott, yep. But doesn't help when you want to show off your minecart system
17:56:09 <fizzie> Let's all just speak in abbreviations from now on. Uh, I mean, LAJSIAFNO.
17:57:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, ITIAGIIT, THCBSA
17:57:23 <elliott> fizzie: lawl, it doesn't see dotfiles
17:57:31 * elliott wonders how to tell it where ~/.minecraft is
17:57:59 <elliott> Vorpal: winforms; sudo aptitude install libmono-winforms2.0-cli
17:58:01 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, you have to download it and say "mono foo.exe". <-- also need to install mono then
17:58:17 <elliott> Vorpal: If you use GNOME, you already have Mono.
17:58:52 <Vorpal> elliott, no. I have gnome and not mono.
17:59:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't install the parts that depend on mono
17:59:10 <elliott> Vorpal: No you don't. You have part of GNOME.
17:59:11 <Vorpal> which is iirc some search thingy
17:59:18 <elliott> Multiple components depend on it.
17:59:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, welcome to Zealotville, Population: You.
17:59:33 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I actually install the parts I want
17:59:40 <elliott> Vorpal: At least you won't be sued because of PATENTS!
17:59:41 <Vorpal> elliott, when I used KDE I never installed the full thing either
17:59:55 <Vorpal> elliott, not the reason though
18:00:15 <Vorpal> the reason is simply I only install what I want. Not the whole meta-package
18:00:24 <Vorpal> I think I'm missing some of the gnome games too for example
18:00:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: Ubuntu's Hugin package depends on "autopano-sift-c | autopano-sift", and there is no autopano-sift-c package available by default, so it goes to autopano-sift, which depends on mono-runtime; that's one way it has gotten installed here.
18:00:57 <elliott> Hopefully you have Quadrapassel.
18:01:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, I use autopano-sift-c I know...
18:01:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, but then I use hugin in ~/local/panorama
18:01:25 <Vorpal> because I want the last version
18:01:30 <Vorpal> and I want different compile time options
18:01:39 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:01:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, and well it doesn't apply on my desktop. Which is arch.
18:03:31 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/qpefs.png
18:03:32 <fizzie> I think in the previous Debian installation I had autopano-sift-c from somewhere.
18:03:40 <fizzie> ... apparently from the debian-multimedia repo.
18:05:00 <Vorpal> <elliott> Hopefully you have Quadrapassel. <-- what is it?
18:05:11 <elliott> Vorpal: See http://i.imgur.com/qpefs.png.
18:05:32 <elliott> Vorpal: (That's my screenshot.)
18:05:51 <elliott> One more damn second and I'd have done it!
18:05:55 <Vorpal> elliott, why did you say "Hopefully you have Quadrapassel."
18:06:05 <elliott> because who can live without tetris?
18:06:08 <Vorpal> as opposed to for example: hopefully you have the gnome minesweeper clone
18:06:26 <Vorpal> elliott, me, I never play it, but it is in the same package as the mine sweeper on arch I think
18:06:29 <elliott> They need a Win95 screen for it.
18:09:42 -!- elliott has left (?).
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18:13:34 <elliott> Vorpal: So, anyway, I've given up on Genera in Ubuntu 10.10, I think.
18:13:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Also transplantation of an older X. I could put my network driver on an Ubuntu 7.10 install CD, but I doubt I could get it working.
18:15:14 <Vorpal> elliott, mhm. Just manually compile a new kernel?
18:15:27 <Vorpal> though, who knows what it would do with mode switching
18:15:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Uh, I think a driver actually existed earlier than distros included it.
18:16:08 <elliott> Never mind, that's irrelevant.
18:16:09 <Vorpal> elliott, is it for wlan?
18:16:22 <elliott> 07:00.0 Ethernet controller: Atheros Communications AR8132 Fast Ethernet (rev c0)
18:16:22 <elliott> 08:00.0 Network controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8191SEvB Wireless LAN Controller (rev 10)
18:16:32 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:16:39 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't know how supported the latter is, but the former is supported only in recent stuff.
18:16:46 <elliott> Ubuntu 10.04 onwards, for instance.
18:17:08 <elliott> Vorpal: WLAN works in Ubuntu 9.10 and possibly before. LAN works in Ubuntu 9.04 onwards.
18:17:18 <elliott> Vorpal: (I didn't realise LAN was unsupported until I started plugging it in.)
18:17:34 <elliott> Vorpal: I suppose WLAN might conceivably work in 7.10, but the installer sure doesn't do WiFi.
18:17:39 -!- sftp has joined.
18:17:41 <elliott> (debian-installer, that is. At least circa late 2007.)
18:19:23 <Vorpal> elliott, and I very much doubt the alternate install (which you need, shadow passwords do not work, remember?) will support wifi
18:19:39 <elliott> Vorpal: The alternate installer is debian-installer.
18:19:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Of course, I theoretically don't need network in the install...
18:19:54 <elliott> Vorpal: (But for some reason the alternate installer wanted to get net connected???)
18:20:08 <elliott> Surely the packages are *on disk*.
18:20:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Although in that case I had copied over a netinstall USB and then put the ISO on like it told me to.
18:20:27 <elliott> Vorpal: It could, conceivably, not have found the ISO.
18:20:36 <elliott> Vorpal: In which case, what I need to do is get USB working properly and then hope WLAN works...
18:21:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I am probably the only person to have WLAN and not LAN working in Linux.
18:22:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm unable to help you with that. Both my laptops have tg3 ethernet. My desktop has via rheine (sp?) and the old dell tower has some 3com
18:22:18 <Vorpal> wait, I'm not sure what the old ibook has
18:23:01 <elliott> Vorpal: The easiest response to this is to buy a new computer.
18:23:19 <Vorpal> elliott, nah. LFS and mix and match software :D
18:23:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Which would be trivial -- I could get a nice preassembled one from endpcnoise -- except that the fanless model is Intel-only.
18:23:49 <elliott> (Which of course makes sense, good luck cooling an AMD processor without using, say, the Statue of Liberty as a radiator.)
18:24:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Won't use ancient X.
18:25:02 <Vorpal> elliott, but opengenera?
18:25:06 <Vorpal> surely you must support that
18:25:24 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, bisect X and find what commit broke it
18:25:44 <elliott> Vorpal: I rather suspect it's Open Genera doing something evil instead.
18:25:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Open Genera will be supported by running it in a VM :P
18:26:32 <Vorpal> elliott, then why are you not doing that
18:27:09 <elliott> Vorpal: CPU has no virtualisation support.
18:27:33 <Vorpal> elliott, shitty system
18:27:45 <elliott> Vorpal: qemu-system-x86_64 took a couple of hours to install Ubuntu (!), and then I had to run an xterm rendered on a local Xephyr because GNOME took about 10 minutes to start up and was unusable after that.
18:27:55 <Vorpal> minecraft.net: "502 Bad Gateway<hr/>ZEN"
18:28:06 <Vorpal> where the hr is rendered
18:28:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, no, my system is fine; not supporting virtualisation is one of Intel's more-expensive-processor rendering tactics.
18:28:44 <elliott> Vorpal: 32-bit qemu is MUCH MUCH faster.
18:29:18 <Vorpal> elliott, well snap64 is a 64-bit binary
18:29:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Just saying, my system isn't slow or anything.
18:35:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Personally, I feel like it'd be a good idea to get it working on qemu-system-alpha.
18:35:53 <elliott> But I can't find an active torrent of Tru64.
18:37:24 <elliott> Vorpal: It'd be stabler like that, too.
18:38:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Also faster, since snap4 makes Open Genera output C code.
18:39:22 <Vorpal> elliott, eh. output C code?
18:39:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Someone didn't read the README.
18:39:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I did but I forgot
18:39:44 <elliott> Vorpal: That someone is you, so go do so.
18:39:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't have it on this computer
18:39:56 <Vorpal> and that computer is not booted atm
18:40:00 <elliott> http://www.unlambda.com/download/genera/snap4.tar.gz
18:40:09 <elliott> Open in $archive_manager_of_choice.
18:40:12 <Vorpal> elliott, nah, I'm playing minecraft instead :P
18:41:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Right now I'm looking for Genera-8-5.vlod in the opengenera tarball.
18:42:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway: [[This is a port of Open Genera to X64_64 linux. It runs Open Genera
18:42:20 <elliott> under linux on a 64 bit X64 machine.
18:42:20 <elliott> In a moment of insanity I decided to hack up the "Open Genera" (OG)
18:42:20 <elliott> lisp code which assembles the Alpha version of OG. I changed the assembler
18:42:20 <elliott> to emit C code instead of assembler. I wrote support routines and made
18:42:20 <elliott> the C code "appear" to the existing emulator code as the original asm.
18:42:22 <elliott> I did have to make a few very small (1 line) changes to the original
18:42:24 <elliott> support code. My goal was not to make any, but some were required.]]
18:44:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Hey, Open Genera predates "Tru64".
18:44:37 <elliott> Vorpal: The quickstart guide mentions Digital UNIX.
18:44:49 <elliott> So perhaps an older version would work.
18:45:06 <elliott> Can't find a Digital UNIX torrent though.
18:45:24 <elliott> Digital Unix 3.2C or later, says the manual.
18:46:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Heh -- the file versions in sys.sct are Digital Unix file versions or something.
18:46:10 <elliott> "/usr/sbin/mount -t cdfs -o noversion /dev/rz4c /cdrom"
18:46:34 <Vorpal> elliott, hm? I thought it was how genera represented it's version stuff when mapping to nfs
18:46:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably I am misinterpreting "-o noversion".
18:47:04 <elliott> Vorpal: AXP/OSF/installgenera appears to be the thing that sets everything up.
18:47:08 <elliott> Vorpal: There's also a VLM.image there...
18:47:58 <elliott> Don't really need a monitor or a mouse or anything; can just ssh and X11 in.
18:48:14 <elliott> Although it would come with a genuine CDE environment, I bet.
18:48:49 <elliott> DEC Alphastation 255/233 - alpha station vintage server £950.00
18:49:10 <elliott> And the hardware looks too weak, too.
18:49:47 <elliott> Compaq AlphaStation DS10 617MHZ 512MB £135.75
18:50:01 <elliott> Vorpal: heh http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=406156&image=371882423&images=371882417,371882423,371882427,371882433,371882436&formats=0,0,0,0,0&format=0
18:50:09 <elliott> Vorpal: "On second thoughts, maybe I don't want to pay for shipping on that."
18:50:35 <elliott> "Surplus Tech Mart is located in Israel, and we ship from Israel."
18:52:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Sec, extracting the text version to copy.
18:52:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm playing with local server
18:53:11 <Vorpal> due to the lack of tracking health
18:53:26 <elliott> At this point, the simplest command to run genera is
18:53:26 <elliott> genera -network <vlm-name>
18:53:27 <elliott> or, if your network uses a non-default subnet mask (see "Non-default
18:53:27 <elliott> Subnet Masks" for more information)
18:53:27 <elliott> genera -network "<vlm-name>;mask=xxx.yyy.zzz.aaa;gateway=bbb.ccc.dd
18:53:42 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, the debugger window is meant to be literally iconified
19:02:48 <elliott> "When you hit <return> after this command, it exands in place [...]"
19:03:36 <elliott> Vorpal: "You should then copy all the files in the site directory on the CD-ROM to the SYS:SITE; directory, e.g.
19:03:42 <elliott> Copy File host:/cdrom/sys.sct/site/* sys:site;"
19:04:14 <elliott> Vorpal: "After copying these files, you should boot the distribution world and then switch to the site you have just defined."
19:04:18 <elliott> SET SITE command, apparently.
19:05:19 <elliott> Vorpal: to avoid using -w you can change genera.world in .VLM
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19:16:14 <Vorpal> elliott, did you find a tru64 copy?
19:16:15 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:16:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, there is http://torrentz.com/7acdf5b3b7c29dda65d8e2b1d7659a0b9cacad62.
19:16:32 <elliott> Vorpal: But I have a far better idea.
19:16:46 <pikhq> 12:12 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, you know that example of SVG only working in XHTML5-served-as-HTML5?
19:16:48 <pikhq> 12:12 <pikhq> elliott: I think I know a way to get it to work as valid HTML5.
19:16:50 <pikhq> 12:13 <pikhq> elliott: For the sake of compatibility with older useragents, the xmlns attribute on the html tag is allowed.
19:16:52 <pikhq> 12:14 <pikhq> elliott: And on the other places it would be required in XML.
19:16:55 <pikhq> 12:15 <pikhq> ... In fact, it's actually quite easy to get something that's valid HTML5 and XHTML5.
19:16:57 <pikhq> 12:15 -!- pikhq [~pikhq@75-173-203-141.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #esoteric
19:16:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Make a chroot. Hop in. Install qemu. Use qemu-alpha. NOT qemu-system-alpha.
19:17:09 <elliott> pikhq: Right, well, that's basically TagsoupML except standardised :P
19:17:17 <elliott> pikhq: Especially as the inside of the SVG would be represented as... as HTML.
19:17:27 <elliott> pikhq: Or XML embedded in HTML, my brain hurts.
19:17:36 <pikhq> elliott: It's XML embedded in HTML.
19:17:43 <pikhq> elliott: Do you have a *link* to that example handy, BTW?
19:17:46 <elliott> Vorpal: That way you can avoid snap4. But I am not convinced that the X bug is snap4's...
19:18:00 <elliott> pikhq: Uh, I hope I can find one.
19:18:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway http://torrentz.com/7acdf5b3b7c29dda65d8e2b1d7659a0b9cacad62.
19:18:13 <pikhq> Should be in the logs somewhere.
19:18:19 <elliott> Vorpal: But peers wouldn't connect to me last I tried.
19:18:23 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc.
19:18:27 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, you go grep them :P Try /burning/
19:18:27 <Vorpal> elliott, but qemu-alpha emulates linux not tru64?
19:18:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Because all snap4 does is s/alpha code/C code/.
19:18:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Open Genera running on Linux is a bit of an accident, I think.
19:18:58 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. What about system calls?
19:19:12 <elliott> Vorpal: ...Well, yes. That would be a slight issue.
19:19:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Well hey, it almost works as a plan :P
19:20:10 <pikhq> Fuck it, I'll just make an example that's valid HTML5 and XHTML5.
19:20:29 <elliott> 10.11.04:13:45:31 <elliott> http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.html
19:20:30 <elliott> 10.11.04:13:45:32 <elliott> http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.xhtml
19:21:04 <Vorpal> elliott, well the torrent might just be slow. Perhaps the other person has an incorrectly configured firewall. If/when they try to connect it might work
19:21:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Let me know if you get it downloaded :P
19:21:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm leaving it like that over-night at least
19:21:39 <elliott> Vorpal: If you do download it, seeding would be much appreciated :)
19:22:15 <Vorpal> elliott, well I presume you will leave your torrent client running over night as well
19:22:19 <Vorpal> elliott, and that you will seed as well
19:22:24 <Vorpal> elliott, otherwise: forget it
19:22:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, uh, why? I can't get it downloaded.
19:22:29 <pikhq> elliott: How to make the XHTML valid HTML: remove the RDF tags.
19:22:34 <Vorpal> elliott, nor can I yet
19:22:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, fine, I'll start Transmission.
19:22:59 <Vorpal> elliott, but when I downloaded an old old codewarrior it took several hours to connect. And in total over a day to download
19:23:12 <Vorpal> elliott, so I'm not giving up that easily
19:23:30 <pikhq> elliott: No, wait, it's just somewhat erroneous RDF.
19:23:38 <Vorpal> elliott, or you could add a comment to the bay page saying "please seed" or such
19:23:39 <elliott> Vorpal: BTW, there was a few seeds on a server not included in the torrentz.com link.
19:23:42 -!- ttm_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:23:43 <elliott> Vorpal: I think it was on TPB.
19:23:50 <pikhq> Which is causing the HTML5 validator a fit.
19:23:51 -!- dbc has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:23:52 <elliott> Now why isn't torrentz loading.
19:24:17 <elliott> Vorpal: I think I got more like 3 with publicbt included.
19:24:34 <Vorpal> elliott, can you give me the tracker url so I can add it manually in ktorrent then
19:24:37 <elliott> Why did torrentz *just* go down for me...
19:24:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Trying to, trying to.
19:24:52 <elliott> "It's just you. http://torrentz.com is up."
19:25:02 <elliott> Thankfully Google has it cached.
19:25:06 <elliott> Hey, Google is BREAKING THE LAW.
19:25:14 <elliott> They're facilitating COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT.
19:25:31 <pikhq> And where that RDF is put in is making the *SVG* invalid.
19:25:43 <elliott> Vorpal: http://tracker.publicbt.com/announce
19:25:47 <Vorpal> elliott, have that one
19:25:52 <Vorpal> elliott, it is in the tpb file
19:25:59 <Vorpal> elliott, not if you are not in canada
19:26:08 <elliott> Vorpal: You have the torrentz list, too, right?
19:26:09 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but I used the tpb one...
19:26:26 <elliott> Vorpal: The whole point of using torrentz is that it tells you extra trackers to use.
19:26:29 <elliott> http://tracker.ilibr.org:6969/announce
19:26:34 <elliott> Vorpal: See http://www.torrentz.com/announce_7acdf5b3b7c29dda65d8e2b1d7659a0b9cacad62
19:26:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Ditch thepiratebay.org (their tracker has been not-working since the legal fuss), keep publicbt, add all of those.
19:27:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Voila, more peers.
19:27:35 <Vorpal> elliott, and one in Sweden
19:27:42 <elliott> Vorpal: This will never finish downloading ever :P
19:27:51 <elliott> Vorpal: By the way, you may want to prioritise the files.
19:28:00 <elliott> Vorpal: For instance, GNU_VOL1 is unlikely to be very important.
19:28:03 <elliott> Vorpal: (Or non-reproducable.)
19:28:06 <elliott> I suspect the same for PORT.
19:28:15 <elliott> I'd set those to low priority.
19:28:23 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean "download last"?
19:28:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Uhh, I don't know or care what your non-Transmission client calls them.
19:28:58 <elliott> The others are opaquely-named so I don't know what they are.
19:29:15 <elliott> So I'd leave them like that.
19:29:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I suspect I know what README.txt is :P
19:29:19 <elliott> Presumably the README will have useful info.
19:29:27 <Vorpal> like what the other ones are
19:29:32 <Vorpal> so high priority on that one
19:29:42 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I don't see the point much, I will download them all anyway
19:29:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, yours is going much faster than mine. Colossally so.
19:30:15 <elliott> Vorpal: If you end up with the whole thing and me at 1%, I legally obligate you to scp the files to me :P
19:30:16 <Vorpal> hm need to grow that partition
19:30:24 <elliott> 2.1 KiB/s, uploading at 82 KiB/s.
19:30:34 <Vorpal> elliott, why don't you connect to me as a peer
19:30:44 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't see any from UK
19:31:09 <elliott> 207.168.110.228 using uTorrent
19:31:17 <elliott> and 79.136.44.219 using libTorrent which is probably you
19:31:31 <elliott> Vorpal: the other one has 6^
19:31:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm using ktorrent
19:31:39 <elliott> then you are connected to me
19:31:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, it's you, and you're the one hogging my upload pipe :P
19:32:10 <elliott> Well, moreso before, I guess. But that might have been someone else.
19:32:14 <Vorpal> no I'm not downloading from you atm
19:32:25 <pikhq> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head><title>SVG</title></head><body><h1>SVG</h1><p>This is <code>text/html</code>!</p><h2>SVG</h2><svg height="800" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"><circle cx="300" cy="300" r="300" fill="red"/></svg></body></html>
19:32:32 <elliott> Vorpal: You totally have to scp these to me when you have them X-P
19:32:33 <pikhq> Voila. Valid HTML5 and XHTML5.
19:32:35 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I'm maxing my upload too
19:32:43 <Vorpal> elliott, no, it is just 150 kb/s now
19:32:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I will seed it
19:32:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I won't scp them to you
19:32:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Dude, regardless of you seeding it it is *impossibly slow*.
19:32:58 <Vorpal> elliott, take it or leave it
19:33:11 <Vorpal> elliott, my upload is this slow too
19:33:15 <elliott> Vorpal: I wouldn't have linked you if I know you were gonna be such an ass about it...
19:33:18 <pikhq> 'Cept it, uh, doesn't work. Fuuuck.
19:33:22 <elliott> Vorpal: I got nothing close to 80 KiB/s until now.
19:33:32 <elliott> Now it's faster thanks to a seeder.
19:33:34 <Vorpal> elliott, because I'm uploading to more than one peer?
19:33:38 <elliott> Now the seeder's given up on me.
19:34:07 <Vorpal> elliott, dude that codewarrior download took 5 days!
19:34:10 <Vorpal> elliott, this is nothing
19:34:33 <elliott> pikhq: What AMD CPU did you buy?
19:34:42 <pikhq> elliott: It works if the file suffix is .xhtml
19:34:44 <elliott> pikhq: A four-core with a broken fourth core, right? aka Phenom X3
19:35:04 <elliott> pikhq: Phenom II, presumably? What clock speed? And is it any good?
19:35:49 <elliott> Vorpal: "^" says nothing. Restate that.
19:35:58 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, dude that codewarrior download took 5 days!
19:35:58 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, this is nothing
19:36:08 <elliott> Vorpal: You didn't restate the ^ line.
19:36:14 <pikhq> Phenom II x3 710; clock speed of 2.6 Gs^-1.
19:36:19 <elliott> Vorpal: "Please reply to these messages because I fear you might have a one-line scrollback and not have seen them?"
19:36:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Restate as in reword.
19:36:47 <elliott> pikhq: Got any temperature vs fan speed readings? (Stock cooler?)
19:36:53 <Vorpal> elliott, "please acknowledge them because I think you were intentionally avoiding them" :P
19:36:54 <elliott> pikhq: Trying to figure out if AMD will work in a fanless build or not :P
19:37:07 <pikhq> elliott: Stock cooler, it will not be nice fanless.
19:37:11 <elliott> Vorpal: No, I just tend to ignore things that any response would be content-free.
19:37:21 <elliott> Vorpal: ais does, too. Interestingly much more with you
19:37:36 <pikhq> The fan is fairly *quiet* when it's idle, but it's always going. And I don't have any fan speed readings handy.
19:37:49 <elliott> pikhq: Dude, this is what I consider a "CPU cooler": http://www.clunk.org.uk/images/articles/dfi/lanparty-cooler/RIMG0115-sm.jpg
19:38:14 <elliott> pikhq: I can run anything fanless, it's just a matter of whether the *other* components will make the maximum heat too much or not :P
19:38:32 <elliott> Incidentally: Coolers like that make me seriously consider sideways cases.
19:38:39 <pikhq> That's somewhat ridiculous.
19:38:41 <elliott> I do not feel like hanging that from that light sheet of metal.
19:39:06 <Vorpal> elliott, you don't want that one to get dusty
19:39:18 <elliott> Vorpal: What's it gonna do, fry the dust?
19:39:18 <pikhq> I may have to obtain one... XD
19:39:28 <Vorpal> elliott, it would reduce cooling quite a bit and it would be a PITA to clean it
19:39:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, but it's much harder to get dusty because of reduced air flow.
19:39:56 <elliott> pikhq: That one is meant for Core i7s; "Megahalems". For well-respected CPU coolers in that vein, see http://www.scythe-usa.com/.
19:40:03 <elliott> pikhq: They also sell very quiet fans.
19:40:31 <pikhq> elliott: Do they sell quiet power supplies?
19:40:39 <elliott> pikhq: Note: Being a silentpcreview fan, my definition of "quiet fan" is "literally inaudible, due to being below the ambient noise of any room not designed for very low ambient noise".
19:40:54 <elliott> pikhq: Power supply -- try the Nexus VALUE 430.
19:41:00 <elliott> pikhq: It's basically silent.
19:41:14 <elliott> pikhq: (You can get fanless PSUs, but they're not as common nowadays and they all have quiet low wattage).
19:41:17 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.nexustek.nl/NXS-Nexus-VALUE-430-silent-power-supply-80plus-430watt.htm
19:41:28 <elliott> pikhq: Nexus also sell very quiet case fans.
19:41:30 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.nexustek.nl/NXS-silentcasefans.htm
19:41:40 <Vorpal> elliott, my thinkpad is silent most of the time. Fan only spins up to audible levels very rarely
19:41:43 <elliott> pikhq: Only buy 120mm fans. Anything smaller is loud. Also: dB(A) ratings are ALWAYS a lie.
19:41:46 <pikhq> I don't currently have a case fan...
19:41:52 <Vorpal> and even then I wouldn't hear it when placed next to my desktop :P
19:41:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Silent meaning literally silent.
19:42:00 <elliott> pikhq: If you cool everything passively, a case fan is a good idea.
19:42:06 <elliott> pikhq: Especially with AMD ;)
19:42:17 <pikhq> And, yeah, I'm well aware that smaller fans are louder.
19:42:24 <elliott> pikhq: Nexus also make huge coolers: http://www.nexustek.nl/NXS-silent_amd_cpu_coolers.htm
19:42:30 <elliott> pikhq: but Scythe are the champion for things you can run without a fan at all.
19:42:35 <Vorpal> elliott, yes same. Most of the time the fan is stopped or running on lowest speed when not doing very very heavy stuff such as playing a 3D game *and* compressing with xz -9 -e
19:42:40 -!- sftp_ has joined.
19:42:41 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and... make sure your motherboard has enough room.
19:42:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Your HD is audible. :)
19:43:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, lowest speed fan IS NOT silent.
19:43:03 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:43:06 <Vorpal> elliott, well no. It is very silent
19:43:12 <elliott> Vorpal: The only things that are silent are things quieter than ambient noise.
19:43:20 <pikhq> I can hear the fan on my computer most of the time.
19:43:27 <elliott> Vorpal: To see what that requires, make sure no cars are going by or whatever at the moment, turn everything off, and *listen to what you hear*.
19:43:29 <pikhq> Though when it's idle it's bairly audible white noise.
19:43:36 <elliott> You hear nothing? Congrats: your fan has to be quieter than nothing to be silent.
19:43:40 <Vorpal> elliott, well, the lowest speed is quieter than the ambient noise both at home and at university
19:43:50 <Vorpal> elliott, for all practical purposes it is thus silent for me
19:43:56 <elliott> Doubtful... not if you listened hard.
19:43:59 <pikhq> When not-idle, yeah, that sucker is noisy.
19:44:19 <Vorpal> elliott, okay not if I put my ear against the air exhaust :P
19:44:20 <elliott> Vorpal: For instance, if you figured out the fan was running in ANY way other than checking your computer's fan information, it wasn't below ambient noise.
19:44:32 <Vorpal> elliott, but if I'm 10 cm away from that: I can't hear it
19:44:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, okay, or that.
19:44:51 <elliott> Yes, you can't hear it, but that's your ears' fault. :P
19:45:06 <elliott> I am not satisfied with silence to my ears! No, I must know that no parts are moving!
19:45:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I do have better than average hearing. Had that tested some years ago...
19:45:22 <pikhq> elliott: So, entirely solid-state?
19:45:23 <elliott> And prepare myself for the creeped-outness of a computer that seemingly does nothing when I press the on button.
19:45:43 <pikhq> That will be an astoundingly long-lasting computer.
19:45:52 <elliott> pikhq: Yes. Except for one terabyte-or-more bulk storage disk, of 7200rpm or less (5400rpm is probably good enough), for storing big stuff.
19:46:00 <elliott> pikhq: And *that* will be in an enclosure designed to muffle the noise.
19:46:08 <Vorpal> elliott, and well I know the hdd is moving. Can't hear it though. Well if I put my ear against the palmrest just above the hdd then I can hear it. But since I don't do that during normal operation I don't consider it a problem :P
19:46:13 <elliott> pikhq: And when a reliable SSD manufacturer releases a 1 TiB SSD...
19:46:35 <elliott> pikhq: However, long-lasting it may not be; if I overshoot and choose components that are too hot, they could overheat.
19:46:42 <Vorpal> elliott, you forgot "affordable" there :P
19:46:46 <elliott> pikhq: But if it gets cooled decently... yes, it will be lovely.
19:46:56 <elliott> Vorpal: I could see parting $400 for it.
19:46:59 <elliott> Vorpal: (But I wouldn't be happy about it.)
19:47:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Ahh, I would love the original TNN.
19:47:18 <elliott> Vorpal: But they have a smaller version that they actually still make.
19:47:24 <elliott> I am likely to go with that.
19:47:29 <Vorpal> elliott, a 5400 RPM laptop disk is quiet. Which is what my thinkpad has
19:47:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Failing that, just put huge coolers on everything, completely open the air holes in the back of the case (just leave a gap), and hope for the best.
19:48:02 <pikhq> Yeah, at 5400 RPM you're only likely to hear head movement...
19:48:14 <pikhq> Unless that is one shitty hard drive.
19:48:17 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, if you're on a budget, know that Nexus fans are just Yate Loon fans, except they throw away the not-so-optimal ones.
19:48:26 -!- dbc has joined.
19:48:29 <elliott> pikhq: That is: Yate Loon gets you the best... most of the time. :)
19:48:38 -!- ttm_ has joined.
19:48:38 <elliott> pikhq: And they're cheaper.
19:48:39 <pikhq> elliott: Keep in mind that I buy AMD. ;)
19:48:41 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean one that doesn't have to be shipped on a pallet?
19:48:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Well I wouldn't go *that* far!
19:49:02 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Yeah, at 5400 RPM you're only likely to hear head movement... <-- and I don't hear that either
19:49:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Let me find a page for you.
19:49:29 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=totally_noiseless_case.html
19:49:34 <Vorpal> elliott, internet is slooow atm. Due to torrent
19:49:39 <Vorpal> loading google took half a minute
19:49:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Introducing Zalman's diminutive Totally Noiseless Computer Case (the TNN 300). This case is for the extremely demanding quiet enthusiast, who also desires a small case. Like the TNN 500AF this fanless case includes every item you need in order to noiselessly cool your computer without any fans or noise. It includes a fanless heatpipe technology power supply, CPU cooler, and video cooler. The TNN 500AF is compatible with Mini-ATX motherboa
19:49:50 <elliott> rds and CPUs up to 70 watts.
19:49:56 <Vorpal> maxing my up speed + shitty modem
19:50:00 <elliott> 70 watts?? They sell it with i5s in it!
19:50:05 <elliott> But then they are <70 watts.
19:50:17 <elliott> [[This noiseless case also has a few other limitations. For example, because of its small size, there is only enough room in the case for one optical drive. This eliminates the possibility of using an ordinarily noisy hard with a hard drive enclosure.]]
19:50:40 <elliott> Vorpal: The nice thing about the TNNs is that they come with fanless PSU.s
19:50:47 <elliott> In the 300's case it's a 350 watt one...
19:51:01 <elliott> Vorpal: If you want to run hefty equipment fanlessly, that's possible. But you'll have to bend copper pipes yourself.
19:51:08 <elliott> Vorpal: (Think: big, big radiator.)
19:51:18 <elliott> This TNN 300, like TNN 500AF is not only silent, but has many other desirable features, including:
19:51:30 <elliott> Vorpal: [[With the provided remote control, not only can the PC be turned on & off, you can access various media such as movies, music files, pictures, and internet radio, and control multimedia peripherals such as DVD, TV, digital camcorder, and digital camera.]]
19:51:36 <elliott> Vorpal: totally what a silence freak is looking for amirite
19:51:45 <elliott> Vorpal: ("Those buttons make NOISE when you press them down!")
19:52:29 <elliott> V5.1Br2650_O1.iso.bz2Tru64 5.1B operating system install
19:52:29 <elliott> V5.1Br2650_A1.iso.bz2Associated products 1
19:52:29 <elliott> V5.1Br2650_A2.iso.bz2Associated products 2
19:52:29 <elliott> T64V51BB27AS0006_install.iso.bz2CD with the 5.1B4 patch kit
19:52:56 <elliott> Vorpal: I'd prioritise the first and last one to the top, and leave the associated products as-is.
19:53:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Since, really, all you need is stock Unix.
19:53:51 <elliott> pikhq: Vorpal: BTW, if you're willing to accept the noise of a pump(!!111zomg), you can easily do otherwise-passive watercooling with a radiator and cool much more with a smaller radiator.
19:55:01 <pikhq> elliott: Or I could just use larger and quieter fans.
19:55:06 <Vorpal> elliott, how many PCI slots can you fit on those?
19:55:06 <Vorpal> elliott, they don't make the large original one any more?
19:55:06 <Vorpal> elliott, dude, my thinkpad manages fine on a 65 W fanless one :P
19:55:07 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway step 1 for fanless PSU: make it external. That makes cooling it a *lot* easier
19:55:07 <pikhq> Which is cheaper still.
19:55:08 <Vorpal> elliott, for the original one or what?
19:55:58 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, how many PCI slots can you fit on those?
19:56:21 <elliott> Vorpal: <Vorpal> elliott, anyway step 1 for fanless PSU: make it external. That makes cooling it a *lot* easier
19:56:28 <fizzie> I see that you're talking about noiseless computers, but I can't in any way understand what Tru64 Unix has to do with that. Do you have an Alpha in there or something?
19:56:40 <Vorpal> that lag spike was annoying
19:56:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, sure. But the PicoPSU, for instance, I think the 90W power brick has a fan.
19:56:56 <elliott> fizzie: Open Genera runs on Tru64 Unix.
19:57:03 <elliott> fizzie: The Linux port is... a hack, basically. And it'll be slower.
19:57:14 <elliott> fizzie: We're going to run ourselves a Lisp Machine.
19:57:19 <elliott> Vorpal: this PSU. it's tiny.
19:57:21 <elliott> Vorpal: with an external power brick
19:57:47 <elliott> Vorpal: see http://www.silentpcreview.com/files/images/picopsu/picopsu5.jpg when your internet gets working
19:57:57 <fizzie> But what are you going to run Tru64 on?
19:58:08 <elliott> fizzie: qemu-system-alpha. Unless you would like to donate... :P
19:58:20 <Vorpal> elliott, presumably there is an internal psu in the laptop that converts from the 20 V in to the different voltages different components want
19:59:13 <elliott> Vorpal: "Because its footprint is no bigger than the ATX connector itself"
19:59:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I just hope tru64 likes the hardware of qemu-system-alpha...
19:59:23 <elliott> Vorpal: it is, literally, an ATX connector that's a bit longer :D
19:59:36 <elliott> Vorpal: qemu-system-alpha was probably designed for tru64
19:59:38 <fizzie> elliott: No, it's just, I didn't think it even think it existed. My qemu-extras packages don't have a -system-alpha, and so on.
19:59:44 <Vorpal> elliott, eh, no SATA power?
19:59:52 <Vorpal> elliott, also too few molex
19:59:53 <elliott> Vorpal: um, now, hate to, but,
19:59:54 <fizzie> I guess it might be new-ish though.
19:59:56 <elliott> Vorpal: there is qemu-alpha
20:00:20 <fizzie> Yes, that's why I was wondering.
20:00:29 <Vorpal> elliott, so it won't work?
20:00:33 <Vorpal> elliott, you told me it would
20:00:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, qemu-system-alpha literally doesn't exist.
20:00:41 <elliott> I assumed it did since qemu-alpha exists.
20:00:47 <elliott> Vorpal: There is probably an Alpha emulator.
20:01:15 <pikhq> Vorpal: Bringing DC voltage down from 20V is much easier than rectifying AC and then bringing the voltage down from 120V or 240V.
20:01:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Uh, because you told me to?
20:01:27 <Vorpal> elliott, because my internet is broken :P
20:01:31 <elliott> [[To run Tru64 I will try CHARON-AXP or REVIVE-ALPHA.]]
20:01:35 <Vorpal> elliott, google timed out for me
20:01:35 <elliott> [[withal i found that a simics is another choice.is that right ?]]
20:01:47 <elliott> (wow @ someone in tehran saying "withal" with otherwise-broken english :D)
20:01:56 <elliott> [[Hi friends. I try VIRTUAL SIMICS. that works properly. i have installed sparc solaris on it. and it works very fine. i'll buy it as soon as possible. i love simics. It supports very larg number of hardware components and emulate anything that may be occur to the mind.]]
20:02:08 <elliott> Vorpal: tl;dr pirate Simics.
20:02:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, also: ITYM 230 V
20:02:45 <pikhq> Vorpal: Ah, right.
20:03:14 <elliott> Vorpal: or actually simics seems very enterprisey.
20:03:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, used to be 220 V in Sweden some years ago (15? 20? 25? Not sure)
20:03:25 <elliott> Vorpal: CHARON-AXP looks good; pirate that.
20:03:33 <Vorpal> elliott, needs pirating?
20:03:39 <elliott> "With CHARON-AXP replacing your Alpha is a matter of days instead of months or years."
20:03:46 <Vorpal> elliott, does it run under linux?
20:03:48 <elliott> Vorpal: proprietary, so yes.
20:04:00 <elliott> but their diagram says windows, so let me look
20:04:12 <elliott> Vorpal: "# Accepted as legitimate (VMS; Tru64) Alpha replacement at affordable cost"
20:04:18 <elliott> [[The host system can be a multi-core Intel or AMD processor based server that supports 64-bit operation, with Windows x64 2003 Server as operating system.]]
20:04:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: The actual voltage used is anywhere from 220V to 240V, depending on the country.
20:04:28 <elliott> Vorpal: [[CHARON-AXP/ES40 for Linux (NCE) is a virtual Alpha ES40 system for X64 Linux made by Stromasys, built for testing and experimental purposes only, ...]]
20:04:47 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:04:48 <fizzie> I think the general tolerances for nominal 230V are 10%, so anything [207, 253] is okay.
20:04:52 <Vorpal> elliott, find me the torrent and I'll look at it
20:04:56 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.stromasys.ch/hardware-virtualization-solutions/charon-axp/download-charon-axp-nce/
20:05:02 <elliott> Vorpal: [[Unlike the commercial versions of CHARON-AXP, the NCE version does not use CPU acceleration technology.]]
20:05:14 <elliott> [[Our commercial CHARON-AXP products provide 400+ MIPS on an Intel Core i7 3.2 GHz host, versus approximately 50 MIPS for the CHARON-AXP/ES40 NCE version.]]
20:05:15 <elliott> Vorpal: meh, 30 MIPS will do me :P
20:05:22 <Vorpal> elliott, DNS timeout XD
20:05:34 <elliott> Technical information, host system requirements, and installation/configuration instructions can be found here. CHARON-AXP/ES40 for Linux NCE distribution is here (tar.bz archive, 1.24MB). An OpenVMS/AXP 8.3 disk image (with no VMS licenses) can be downloaded here (.vdisk tar.bz2 archive, 311MB, for demonstration purposes only).
20:05:41 <elliott> Vorpal: ftp://es40nce:eqs438gfv@ftp.stromasys.com/charon-axp_es40_v01_b111_linux_x64_nce.tar.gz FWIW
20:06:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Emulators that only run on one platform amuse me.
20:06:04 <fizzie> elliott: "This release of CHARON-AXP/ES40 NCE will expire on 12/31/2010, it will be updated before the end of the each year." Those are some fancy terms.
20:06:26 <fizzie> Also a 30-day use limit.
20:06:40 <elliott> fizzie: I sometimes feel that the worst mistake in operating systems was allowing programs to access time.
20:06:59 <elliott> Or record how many times they've been used :P
20:07:10 <elliott> "This license of mv(1) has expired. ..."
20:07:34 <fizzie> There might be a spare Alpha somewhere around the university; there were several Tru64 boxes which have been retired from service. Don't know what happened to 'em, though.
20:08:40 <elliott> Vorpal: ha, the same company that makes CHARON-AXP also make PDP-11 and VAX emulators
20:08:55 <elliott> fizzie: I wish I was alive around the time when there were still interesting non-x86 architectures around.
20:08:57 <elliott> fizzie: Now it's all PC, PC, PC.
20:09:23 <elliott> Vorpal: "This is a 2002 research paper that describes a DEC PDP-8 emulator that runs on MS-DOS."
20:09:45 <fizzie> I'm not sure if our place still has any non-x86s; I saw the old UltraSparc 10 workstations in the corridor the other day.
20:09:59 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
20:10:54 -!- Vorpal has joined.
20:11:17 <elliott> * Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
20:11:20 <fizzie> Okay, there's still this one: http://p.zem.fi/psrinfo
20:11:38 <fizzie> "Sun Fire 880 8 x 900 MHz UltraSPARC III+ 16 GB RAM Solaris 10 10/09 s10s_u8wos_08a SPARC"
20:11:42 <fizzie> It's being phased out, though.
20:11:46 <Vorpal> <fizzie> There might be a spare Alpha somewhere around the university; there were several Tru64 boxes which have been retired from service. Don't know what happened to 'em, though.
20:11:46 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, better locate a torrent what with the limits on that version...
20:11:52 <Vorpal> elliott, that was the last I saw
20:12:03 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal: ha, the same company that makes CHARON-AXP also make PDP-11 and VAX emulators
20:12:04 <elliott> <elliott> fizzie: I wish I was alive around the time when there were still interesting non-x86 architectures around.
20:12:04 <elliott> <elliott> fizzie: Now it's all PC, PC, PC.
20:12:04 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal: "This is a 2002 research paper that describes a DEC PDP-8 emulator that runs on MS-DOS."
20:12:05 <elliott> <fizzie> I'm not sure if our place still has any non-x86s; I saw the old UltraSparc 10 workstations in the corridor the other day.
20:12:07 <elliott> * Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
20:12:08 <Vorpal> elliott, loading a webpage is not possible, this includes log
20:12:09 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, DNS timeout XD
20:12:32 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm always impressed how IRC tends to work even when nothing else does.
20:12:40 <elliott> <fizzie> Okay, there's still this one: http://p.zem.fi/psrinfo
20:13:00 <Vorpal> <elliott> fizzie: Heh.
20:13:00 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> that's annoying
20:13:00 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> and pointless if they intend to keep that promise
20:13:00 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Also a 30-day use limit.
20:13:12 <Vorpal> <elliott> "This license of mv(1) has expired. ..."
20:13:15 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> fizzie, well screw that
20:13:16 <elliott> pikhq: MUGEN 2 is Scythe's WTFJESUS model. YASYA too.
20:13:16 <Vorpal> <fizzie> There might be a spare Alpha somewhere around the university; there were several Tru64 boxes which have been retired from service. Don't know what happened to 'em, though.
20:13:19 <elliott> In fact YASYA might even be crazier
20:13:21 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, better locate a torrent what with the limits on that version...
20:13:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Scythe CPU coolers.
20:13:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Of the HEATPIPE TOWER variety.
20:14:04 <fizzie> The 30-day limit sounded work-aroundable: it seemed more like "you can have this thing up and running only for 30 days consecutively, then it'll shutdown and cause downtime, so you'd better not run your critical services on it".
20:17:35 <elliott> No results for CHARON-AXP on TPB; can't access torrentz.com right now.
20:24:53 -!- asiekierka has quit (Quit: Read error: Connection reset by beer).
20:27:42 <zzo38> Linux has filesystem in userspace, but there is something I do not like about it see the example at http://fuse.sourceforge.net/ but I would prefer something like this http://sprunge.us/ZbOf
20:28:01 <elliott> zzo38: you should install Plan 9 instead of Linux
20:31:43 <zzo38> Does Plan 9 work in that way?
20:32:09 <elliott> zzo38: I believe so. Either that or a very similar way.
20:32:16 <elliott> zzo38: And it has 9P all over the place, of course.
20:33:24 <zzo38> Where is the instruction how that kind of things works in Plan 9?
20:34:28 <elliott> zzo38: The Plan 9 Manual, which is included in every Plan 9 system.
20:34:52 <elliott> zzo38: You can download Plan 9 Fourth Edition here: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/download/plan9.iso.bz2
20:35:03 <elliott> zzo38: If your system cannot boot CDs, you also need: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/download/plan9.flp.gz
20:35:13 <elliott> zzo38: Installation documentation is http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/installation_instructions/, if you decide to install it.
20:35:30 <elliott> zzo38: There is also http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Documentation/.
20:35:43 <elliott> zzo38: This includes all the Plan 9 papers, a web interface to every man page, and also guides for installation and configuration.
20:35:55 <elliott> zzo38: The man pages are where most Plan 9 documentation is; try looking up "9p" or similar.
20:37:14 <Phantom_Hoover> The Intel GFX people continue to be profoundly unhelpful!
20:37:14 <elliott> zzo38: If your keyboard, mouse, VGA card and Ethernet card work, then you're set. USB mice/keyboards aren't supported.
20:37:37 <elliott> zzo38: You can easily verify the first three by trying to boot the CD; if it boots and you can use your keyboard and mouse in the graphical display, they work. You could then check Ethernet works.
20:37:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I have so far been told to upgrade my drivers to the new ones from Sid, which I did, and when that didn't help noöne even responded.
20:37:56 <Sgeo> Dear YouTube: Stop buffering even though you have plenty of the video loaded
20:38:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Because it's a developer's channel, which I found out by reading the topic.
20:39:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Try #debian.
20:39:16 <elliott> They can point you places gruffly.
20:39:34 <Phantom_Hoover> They had even less help when I asked them, even when I asked them where I could go
20:39:36 <elliott> [[Although several netbooks using the Poulsbo chipset are shipped with some distribution of Linux (notably the Sony Vaio P and Dell Inspiron Mini 12, among others), Poulsbo's graphics core GMA 500 is currently not well supported by Intel for Linux.]]
20:39:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is yours a GMA 500?
20:39:53 <elliott> [[However there is a quite easy way to have the drivers work on any Debian-based distribution, thanks to the Ubuntu sources and packages, for the linux kernel 2.6.30 (with newer kernel it would need a little hacking but seems still possible while the sources are included). A detailed explanation is available here[5].
20:39:54 <elliott> A proprietary driver was shipped with Dell's adaptation of Ubuntu 8.04.1 Netbook Remix, which provides 2D hardware acceleration (although users reported serious stability issues[6]) under Linux kernel 2.6.24. A work-in-progress free driver is currently available, however the proprietary driver does not work with current Linux kernels and current versions of X.[7] Work is under way to provide at least 2D support in current Linux kernels,[8] althou
20:39:54 <elliott> gh this will still rely on proprietary binary code for the 3D part of the driver. The current[9] status of this driver runs on Fedora 10 and allows for 2D. 3D acceleration, however, is still broken.]]
20:39:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What is it?
20:40:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (lspci or whatever, etc.)
20:40:14 <elliott> zzo38: Are these links helpful?
20:40:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I have no problems at all.
20:40:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What laptop model?
20:41:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well that's helpful.
20:41:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, try Ubuntu's driver.
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20:41:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I have mobile 4 series on my thinkpad
20:41:33 <elliott> This may break X, so prepare to not use it.
20:43:27 <Vorpal> elliott, wrt absurd CPU cooler sizes: http://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/1212/noctua_nhd14_014.jpg
20:43:55 <Vorpal> elliott, absurdly large
20:43:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Is that a Noctua cooler or just Noctua fans on a non-Noctua cooler?
20:44:00 <elliott> Looks like the former but I can't tell.
20:44:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Ehh, not that absurdly large.
20:44:10 <Vorpal> elliott, a noctua cooler according to the page it is on
20:44:14 <elliott> It's mostly a trick of perspective.
20:44:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Those fans are big but they're not *huge*.
20:44:28 <Vorpal> elliott, no it isn't. That middle one is a 140 mm fan
20:44:33 <elliott> I know how big the fans are.
20:44:41 <elliott> Vorpal: It's seriously not *that* gigantic, as gigantic coolers go.
20:45:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://packages.ubuntu.com/maverick-updates/xserver-xorg-video-intel
20:45:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ...so download the .deb?
20:45:23 <Vorpal> elliott, know anything more gigantic?
20:45:30 <Vorpal> elliott, that is actually mass produced
20:45:38 <zzo38> elliott: I did look at the documentation; Plan 9 does not work in the way I specified in my example file either
20:45:45 <elliott> Vorpal: The megahalems may be bigger. Can't tell.
20:45:56 <zzo38> (If I install Linux, I could modify the system to do what I think it should do)
20:45:57 <elliott> zzo38: OK, but every program gets its own filesystem namespace.
20:46:02 <Vorpal> elliott, this will help: http://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/1212/noctua_nhd14_015.jpg
20:46:04 <elliott> zzo38: You can do that with Plan 9 too.
20:46:16 <elliott> zzo38: /sys/src contains full sources. You can modify them, "mk" them, and "mk install" them.
20:46:26 <elliott> zzo38: This is on every Plan 9 system. (More information about compiling it is available in the man pages.)
20:46:41 <elliott> Vorpal: OK, that's pretty big. Got a link?
20:47:14 <Vorpal> elliott, to that page in the review: http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1212/4/ (you might want to go to the first page at the list at the bottom)
20:47:35 <Vorpal> elliott, ah yes, didn't notice that
20:47:42 <elliott> Vorpal: on the megahalems: "Does its job well and reduced the temperature of my CPU by 25 - 30 degrees over the stock heat sink."
20:48:00 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, that link was to the 2.12.0 version of the drivers, yes?
20:48:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ubuntu patch things.
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20:49:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So try it.
20:49:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Heyy, that thing is AM3-compatible with a backplate.
20:49:34 <elliott> Vorpal: 900 grams... nice.
20:49:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Hope it works without a fan :P
20:50:00 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no clue :P
20:50:01 <zzo38> Maybe I can have like: if(path_starts_with(path,"/mixer")) return mixer_userfs(command,path+6,data);
20:50:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I use the stock AMD Sempron 3300+ heatsink with the stock fan. So...
20:50:40 <elliott> zzo38: You could easily modify Plan 9 to do these things. The code is a lot simpler and smaller than Plan 9 too, so it will be easier.
20:50:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: --force-all
20:50:51 <Vorpal> elliott, well it runs quite cool :P
20:50:59 <Vorpal> elliott, and the PSU fan is way louder
20:51:00 <elliott> http://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/1212/noctua_nhd14_005.jpg
20:51:02 <elliott> "Versus can of Dr Pepper!"
20:51:30 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm going to be so paranoid about thermal paste.
20:51:34 <elliott> "Did I get it on properly? Aieeeeee"
20:52:33 <Vorpal> elliott, http://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/1212/noctua_nhd14_017.jpg
20:52:42 <Vorpal> elliott, and http://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/1212/noctua_nhd14_016.jpg
20:52:45 <elliott> Oh my, not only are there Megahalems, there are now "Supermegas" from the same manufacturer.
20:52:53 <elliott> "Following the huge success of Megahalems comes the super edition, the SUPER MEGA."
20:53:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Internet working now, eh?
20:53:17 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I limited upload to 10 kbps less than my max speed
20:53:22 <Vorpal> elliott, then everything works fine
20:53:30 <elliott> Vorpal: I would whine, but my download is pretty good now :P
20:54:00 <Vorpal> elliott, you might whine all you like, but I like actually being able to access stuff
20:54:05 <elliott> Vorpal: "It also has the one thing that I think most enthusiasts wish they could change about a Noctua fan: the color."
20:54:19 <elliott> Vorpal: (1) the colours are nice! (2) ...it's meant to be in your fucking computer
20:54:36 <Vorpal> elliott, plexiglass cases I guess
20:54:54 <elliott> Vorpal: god I hate "PC" "enthusiasts"
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20:55:04 <Vorpal> elliott, "Now, if you were thinking about adding a third fan, well, don’t. The back of the cooler is so close to the back of the case and the rear fan that it most likely wouldn’t fit."
20:55:10 <elliott> Vorpal: who think they're hardware-savvy or "built their own computer" because they plugged a few components together
20:55:15 <elliott> As if it's hard! It's DESIGNED to be easy.
20:55:17 <elliott> It's DESIGNED to be routine.
20:55:34 <elliott> You plug A into Z, B into Z, C into D, and D into Z, and you press the on button.
20:55:41 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt my grandma could manage though. But she couldn't manage to use a mouse I think
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20:55:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Well yeah, it's not trivial, but it's also something anyone could do with a simple set of instructions.
20:56:18 <Vorpal> elliott, slightly trickier than IKEA. (IKEA needs no ESD protection)
20:56:29 <Vorpal> elliott, now what *is* tricky is doing the same on a laptop
20:56:40 <Vorpal> service manual is a *must* there
20:56:45 <elliott> Vorpal: But what about the WIRELESS anti-static wristwraps?
20:56:59 <elliott> (Yes, people market these. Not that they work.)
20:57:00 <Vorpal> elliott, huh? how would that work?
20:57:08 <Vorpal> elliott, so false marketing
20:57:11 <elliott> Vorpal: It doesn't. But it doesn't stop 'em from selling it...
20:57:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Dude, these companies are on the super-shady end of shady anyway :P
20:57:25 <elliott> They're probably in China or something.
20:57:36 <elliott> Vorpal: And if you sued every company with shady marketing in China, ... hahahaha.
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20:58:29 <Vorpal> elliott, link to that super-megahalem?
20:58:34 <Vorpal> I can't find it with google
20:58:39 <Vorpal> link to a review that is
20:58:42 <elliott> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835242006
20:58:45 <elliott> They look just like Megahalems to me.
20:58:52 <elliott> They have COPPER in them too.
20:58:56 <elliott> I thought that was a watermark or something.
20:59:22 <Vorpal> elliott, also "supermega" is such a bad name
20:59:28 <Vorpal> superhalem would have been better
21:00:17 <elliott> Vorpal: http://pro-clockers.com/cooling/1703-prolimatech-super-mega.html http://www.legionhardware.com/articles_pages/prolimatech_super_mega,1.html Haven't loaded these but just from the domain name I'd be sceptical of them.
21:00:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:00:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Today on "Darwinism In Action":
21:00:44 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:00:47 <elliott> [[Is It Necessary To Wear Anti Static Wrist Wrap When Installing A Mobo?
21:00:49 <elliott> what are the chances of shorting the mobo or cpu whae building a computer,and is no wrist wraps,what else would would work thanks
21:00:52 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, didn't really "work", but it had some... interesting behaviour.
21:01:52 <Phantom_Hoover> The test I'm using (running FreeSpace 2 with the latest graphical extensions on) failed, rather than crashing the computer.
21:02:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, that's better, no?
21:02:11 <Phantom_Hoover> More curiously, it failed in a way it's failed before; I'm looking into the details now
21:02:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Regrettably, the FS2 SCP developers decided that debug output should require a debug build.
21:03:06 <elliott> Vorpal: jesus, most people on http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=169880 are saying "naw you don't need a wrist strap"
21:03:11 <elliott> "Always handle all your hardware by the very edges of the PCB, and even if there were a static shock, more than likely it would never hit anything vital or even do any damage if it did."
21:03:15 <elliott> "I'm an electrician and grounding your self with a wrist band is alittle over the top, BUT, if it makes yourself feal better then do it."
21:07:01 <elliott> Something amusing that I've said before: djb has published parts, assembly and installation instructions for his "standard workstation" in 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2009. However, he has not assembled any of them past the 2006 one.
21:07:12 <elliott> http://cr.yp.to/hardware/advice.html
21:07:14 <elliott> http://cr.yp.to/hardware/build-20060107.html
21:07:16 <elliott> http://cr.yp.to/hardware/build-20071203.html
21:07:19 <elliott> http://cr.yp.to/hardware/build-20090123.html
21:07:30 <pikhq> Now, when working on consumer electronics, it's not *exceptionally* likely that you're going to damage something via static electricity. But why risk it? When it does happen, that is going to be an expensive lesson to learn...
21:07:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:08:16 <elliott> pikhq: they're kiddies, if they break if they can just recharge it all to their parents' credit cards
21:08:43 <pikhq> Especially since it's not exactly hard to keep yourself grounded...
21:09:13 <elliott> I wish Newegg operated in the UK.
21:09:19 <pikhq> Either a wrist strap or (if you've got a bare metal case with a power supply in it, attached to the case itself, and plugged in) remain in contact with the damned metal of the case.
21:09:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:09:51 <pikhq> (assuming, of course, your house is actually grounded. If it isn't, your electrician is a madman.)
21:10:26 <Phantom_Hoover> <Phantom_Hoover> [[compiz (core) - Fatal: Software rendering detected.]]
21:10:26 <Phantom_Hoover> <Phantom_Hoover> DRIconf is also no longer able to start in the nicey-nice mode and instead defaults to the advanced interface.
21:10:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Don't use Compiz.
21:10:51 <fizzie> pikhq: Anything built pre-1980s around here tends -- well, unless someone's actually done some renovation, which is likely for pre-1950 -- to have only ungrounded outlets, except a few in special places like the bathroom.
21:11:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If you really want window shadows, enable Metacity compositing.
21:11:03 <pikhq> fizzie: Where "here" is?
21:11:14 <elliott> fizzie: Aww, we're same-second buddies!
21:11:18 <elliott> fizzie: I own your firstborn now.
21:11:28 <fizzie> elliott: Not from where I look from! But anyhow.
21:11:50 <elliott> <fizzie> elliott: By that logic, I own your firstborn too.
21:11:54 <elliott> <elliott> Isn't that called "marriage"?
21:12:05 <pikhq> fizzie: I'm surprised that many modern electronics work there, then — most things kinda require a grounded outlet...
21:12:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, I'm getting an error from FS2 about DDSes being compressed but compression not being enabled.
21:12:42 <pikhq> Or, at least, should. Do your IEC cables just not hook up the grounding pin? If so, you are all crazy.
21:12:51 <Phantom_Hoover> The thing is, I got this error before, and it was "fixed" by enabling an option in DRIconf.
21:13:05 <elliott> pikhq: You Americans are crazy for not having a child-saving safety plug pin!
21:13:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I say "fixed" because it didn't give any errors and instead just broke the computer.
21:14:09 <pikhq> elliott: You Brits are crazy for having a ring circuit and fuses in the plug!
21:14:11 <Vorpal> elliott, why does djb make those standard workstation things?
21:15:22 <Vorpal> <fizzie> pikhq: Anything built pre-1980s around here tends -- well, unless someone's actually done some renovation, which is likely for pre-1950 -- to have only ungrounded outlets, except a few in special places like the bathroom. <-- same in Sweden
21:15:41 <Vorpal> <elliott> fizzie: Aww, we're same-second buddies! <-- not from here
21:15:54 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, why does djb make those standard workstation things?
21:16:02 <fizzie> pikhq: Grounded outlets here are type F -- http://electricaloutlet.org/type-f -- which has two grounding connectors on the sides; the older ones just have a round hole. So you can indeed plug grounded cables into an old-style power outlet, and it connects just phase and neutral.
21:16:05 <elliott> 'cuz he built a computer twice, and published the specs to stop people bothering him?
21:16:12 <elliott> Or just inherently assumes that everyone values his own opinion.
21:16:29 <fizzie> (You can't plug the old-style round connector into a grounded outlet, though, without whittling it down a bit.)
21:16:30 <elliott> To be honest, the components are well thought-out, it's just surprising he goes to the effort if he doesn't bother building it.
21:16:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Still, he tells people to share his experiences with the djb-hardware list on his pages, so presumably people actually build them.
21:16:55 <elliott> Vorpal: There are a lot of slightly-crazy "djb way" people.
21:16:56 <pikhq> fizzie: That's... Crazy. If you somehow plugged in a grounded cable to an ungrounded socket, there could be a shock risk.
21:17:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, um. Presumably they would design the products to be safe for both
21:18:13 <elliott> Aww, that "the djb way" ebook is down.
21:18:20 <elliott> (No, the result after that isn't it.)
21:18:20 <fizzie> pikhq: That's also what is pretty commonly done. Basically anyone who has a computer in a place with ungrounded outlets by default.
21:18:37 <elliott> [[DJB says that a construct like:
21:18:39 <elliott> would make it possible to take over the machine by a local user.
21:18:39 <elliott> What does he mean exactly with his statement? Can anyone shed
21:18:39 <elliott> some light on that? I don't really understand this.]]
21:19:33 <Vorpal> elliott, well assuming q is valid for the length of tz it looks fine to me
21:19:44 <elliott> Vorpal: It fails to null-terminate q. Duh.
21:20:01 <Vorpal> elliott, I would have assumed that was done after
21:20:09 <elliott> Vorpal: And instantly I never trust network-exposed daemons you have written to run on any of my systems :P
21:20:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well I wouldn't write code like that :P
21:20:30 <elliott> can take over the machine.]]
21:20:42 <pikhq> fizzie: So, what, all your equipment is class II, and hence has no need for grounding?
21:20:51 <Vorpal> elliott, what I would do is use memcpy and get the range right
21:21:16 <elliott> Vorpal: C could be fine with buffer overflows if it had a better standard library.
21:21:26 <elliott> Vorpal: This is why djb uses very little libc in his programs...
21:21:45 <pikhq> fizzie: You all are either mad or a bit silly for adding grounding.
21:22:07 <elliott> with Sendmail running setuid.
21:22:07 <elliott> can take over the machine.]]
21:22:09 <pikhq> elliott: You guys, on the other hand: nicely done on not having ungrounded sockets.
21:22:31 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, but you wouldn't believe the price we pay for it. Our plugs are *huge* and unwieldy.
21:22:44 <elliott> pikhq: (For no particular reason other than bad design.)
21:22:45 <Vorpal> elliott, a somewhat funny quote related to this (forgot from where): There are only two hard problems in Computer Science: graph search, naming things and off-by-one errors
21:23:06 <elliott> Took me a second to work that out; I was busy saying "don't you mean three"?
21:23:13 <pikhq> elliott: Clearly you should adopt IEC 60906-1 plugs.
21:23:26 <fizzie> pikhq: I don't really have a survey; but given how much people bring things from wherever, I would seriously doubt everything's class-II.
21:23:34 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/IEC-906-1-plug.svg
21:24:10 <Vorpal> elliott, There are 10 types of people: Those who don't get Gray code, those who think this is a joke about base 2 and those who know Gray code.
21:24:25 <pikhq> fizzie: Then you must be insane. Things that are class-1 will hook their chassis to ground, so that any short will go to ground, tripping the circuit breaker or fuse. And not hurting anyone.
21:24:27 <elliott> pikhq: Those edges need rounding for comfort.
21:24:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I presume you heard it before
21:24:42 <elliott> Vorpal: No, but I like it.
21:24:49 <pikhq> fizzie: Without grounding, what instead happens is 120/230V right to anyone who touches it.
21:24:52 <elliott> Vorpal: The middle one should be last though.
21:25:08 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it wasn't the way I heard it
21:25:17 <Vorpal> elliott, the right one should be last in general
21:25:25 <fizzie> pikhq: Curiously enough, I don't think the country as a whole has any sort of higher-than-average electrocution rate.
21:25:27 <Vorpal> elliott, which is "those who know gray code"
21:25:33 <pikhq> elliott: It's a Europlug with a grounding pin. International standard for 230V/50Hz but only adopted by Brazil...
21:25:35 <elliott> Vorpal: But it spoils most of the joke by the middle one.
21:25:43 <pikhq> elliott: Which is on 127V/60Hz. Because fuck you.
21:25:58 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. You kind of give it away with the first one already
21:26:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, but people might think it's just a "not X, X"/"X, not X" type of binary joke.
21:26:21 <elliott> Then the latter one makes them double take and get it.
21:26:36 <Vorpal> elliott, not if they know what gray code is
21:26:46 <pikhq> elliott: The standard for 120V/60Hz is in use by the US and Japan. Hooray.
21:26:49 <Vorpal> then they conclude that there will be 3 after the first one
21:27:02 <Vorpal> elliott, or are you not fluent in short gray code?
21:27:03 <pikhq> (... Because IEC just standardised what they were doing. XD)
21:27:20 <Vorpal> I admit I have to think if dealing with more than 3 digits of gray code.
21:27:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Not really, no. I know what it is though :P
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21:28:02 <Vorpal> elliott, well, Kaurnaugh diagrams use gray code encoding of the variables when you have multiple on one side
21:29:26 <fizzie> pikhq: Anyway, the requirements *have* been for quite a while now sane, for any new installations: it's "just" the existing death-traps that could be a problem.
21:30:20 <pikhq> fizzie: Still, you guys are mad for making the grounded plugs fit into ungrounded sockets.
21:30:32 <elliott> Oh wait, http://thedjbway.b0llix.net/ is it.
21:30:56 <elliott> " A Unix system is comprised of many smaller, simple programs and utilities, each performing a specific task in a focused and well-defined way."
21:31:09 <elliott> "Unix was originally developed by AT&T/Bell Labs to run their huge network of telephone switches across the U.S."
21:31:38 <pikhq> ... Though, then again, the US does some crazy stuff sometimes. There's ungrounded-to-grounded plug adapters. You're supposed to attach it to a ground manually (either via screwing it onto a socket that has a grounded case, or via a ground wire, or whatever), but nobody does.
21:31:59 <elliott> "Unix was originally developed by Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie to run Spacewar!."
21:32:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, most of north europe use F style plugs
21:32:53 <Vorpal> at least Germany and further north
21:33:19 <fizzie> pikhq: Well, the old-style ungrounded outlets are just two holes with the right distance: we'd have had to adopt some sort of a third prong to make something that won't fit in there. (Or change the distance of pins, but then you couldn't plug in any of your old double-insulated class II type C europlug things into any new grounded outlets.
21:33:20 <pikhq> Fortunately, the ungrounded sockets have been banned since 1960, and most things older than that have needed the wiring renovated...
21:33:32 <elliott> Vorpal: I just wrote that.
21:33:36 <elliott> Vorpal: I was correcting, as you can see,
21:33:38 <Phantom_Hoover> While in the UK we use our massive plugs, slightly larger than one's head.
21:33:39 <elliott> <elliott> "Unix was originally developed by AT&T/Bell Labs to run their huge network of telephone switches across the U.S."
21:33:49 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but the fact is old
21:33:52 <pikhq> fizzie: You could have just added a third hole in the socket.
21:33:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Duh. I was correcting that quoted stupidity.
21:34:01 <Vorpal> elliott, in fact that fact is as old as unix as a matter of fact
21:34:20 <pikhq> Rather than the weirdo clips on the side.
21:35:15 <pikhq> elliott: I think it telling that plug adapters to British plugs actually *contain the entire plug* and end up looking like a normal British plug.
21:35:26 <zzo38> I have now read the entire book of TeX: The Program. I want to implement it differently, using the C memory allocation for simpler, and omitting much useless stuff such as \outer. (This makes it isn't TeX, but something similar, so it can be called YeX instead; and using the GNU GPL instead of the TeX copyright)
21:35:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, those clips have some reason. IIRC related to making sure to have ground before the actual power is connected
21:36:04 <elliott> zzo38: malloc() isn't simple. static buffers are far simpler
21:36:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can do that with a longer middle prong.
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21:36:21 <fizzie> pikhq: Yes, a three-prong plug would have worked. Still, type E (france, belgium, etc) did it so that the socket has a pin, and the plug has just the regular two pins and a hole: you can of course stick that in an ungrounded just-two-holes outlet too.
21:36:31 <elliott> zzo38: alloca() is simpler than malloc(), too: it is stored on the stack (so don't make allocation size too big), and requires no free()
21:36:38 <elliott> since returning from the function will eliminate the storage
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21:36:45 <Vorpal> <pikhq> elliott: I think it telling that plug adapters to British plugs actually *contain the entire plug* and end up looking like a normal British plug. <-- uh? Why is that telling?
21:36:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Euro_converter_plug2.jpg The things are fucking huge.
21:37:01 <elliott> zzo38: that allows you to do "char foo[N];" for runtime-calculated N, basically, with "char *foo = alloca(N)"
21:37:06 <zzo38> elliott: Using malloc() though, means using the computer memory instead of fixed the amount of memory at compile time.
21:37:20 <elliott> zzo38: calloc lets you use memory, too.
21:37:26 <pikhq> Vorpal: You can get the same sort of adapter for just about any other plug.
21:37:28 <elliott> zzo38: It is just stored on the stack.
21:37:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, weird way to design it
21:37:38 <elliott> pikhq: Uhh, that's smaller than most British plugs.
21:37:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, why do they do it that way
21:37:48 <pikhq> elliott: It still looks entirely normal.
21:37:58 <elliott> pikhq: No, it's seriously too small.
21:38:01 <elliott> I'd be suspicious of that.
21:38:33 <fizzie> pikhq: WP puts it pretty mildly using just the words "less safely": "Schuko sockets can accept two-pin unearthed type C plugs, namely CEE 7/16 and CEE 7/17. Less safely, schuko plugs can be inserted into many two-pin unearthed sockets and into some sockets with a different form of earth connection that will not mate with the earth contacts on the schuko plug (e.g., some variants of type K). Many such sockets also lack the cavity required to prevent users from t
21:38:33 <fizzie> ouching the pins whilst inserting the plug."
21:38:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: No idea why the plugs are gigantic.
21:38:46 <zzo38> elliott: In many things though, static allocation is better and stuff, so I can use static allocation, too. But some things would use dynamic allocation. (TeX has its own dynamic allocation in a statically allocated area) In some cases using things on stack is work, but some times global memory is needed instead.
21:38:57 <pikhq> fizzie: By "less safely" they of course mean "death trap".
21:39:05 <zzo38> (But if you can suggest a better way that still does these things, do so)
21:39:12 <elliott> zzo38: Well, "char *x = alloca(N);" is the same thing as "char x[N];", except that with the former, you can calculate N at runtime.
21:39:31 <elliott> zzo38: So you don't have to free() it or anything, it acts just like you wrote "char x[N];" except you can work out what N is while the program is running.
21:39:41 <fizzie> Anyway, for the record, mandated grounded outlets appeared here only in the beginning of 1990s, so it's quite a while until every place will have those. (Also mandated ground fault circuit interruptors.)
21:40:16 <zzo38> elliott: Thanks. That does help a bit, for some cases. (It should not work well for global variables though, that need many allocation and free)
21:40:41 <elliott> zzo38: Yes, indeed. Note that alloca isn't part of the official Unix standard, but it works everywhere I can think of.
21:40:58 <pikhq> I suspect at least part of reasoning for the gigantic plugs is that the plugs are supposed to have the fuse in them.
21:41:02 <Vorpal> this house has ground fault. And earthed in most rooms. Not in all. Was built in 1907. Renovated and extended in the 1960s.
21:41:12 <zzo38> elliott: Including Linux and MinGW?
21:41:13 <Vorpal> ground fault detection
21:41:31 <Vorpal> (and presumably protection)
21:41:31 <elliott> zzo38: Linux definitely (and BSDs too). MinGW, yes (unless MinGW is really weird), because gcc handles it.
21:41:50 <Vorpal> elliott, mingw is just gcc targeting win32 iirc
21:42:04 <elliott> zzo38: One thing to take note of is that if you pass alloca() too big a number -- such that the amount of stack used plus the number given is bigger than the maximum size of the stack -- you will get a stack overflow.
21:42:14 <elliott> zzo38: But you'd have to pass it a very big number.
21:42:21 <Vorpal> <elliott> zzo38: Well, "char *x = alloca(N);" is the same thing as "char x[N];", except that with the former, you can calculate N at runtime. <-- the latter works in C99
21:42:27 <zzo38> elliott: That is good, now it can work on BSD also, is good!
21:42:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Not for completely runtime N.
21:42:35 <fizzie> You can still do some pretty dubious things under the current rules when renovating old stuff; like install grounded outlets that have been grounded by connecting the grounding pins to the N wire; it's I guess reasonably safe, it'll blow a fuse if you short to ground, but still. If it's a new construction, you need to have separate N and PE wires from the outlets.
21:42:43 <elliott> Vorpal: IIRC it's quite limited as to what you can put in there.
21:42:53 <elliott> Anyway I don't think zzo38 uses C99.
21:43:15 <fizzie> (Of course the alternative is that no-one'd bother installing grounded outlets when renovating, since no-one wants to redo all the wiring, and there's generally just two wires from the electricity distribution point to the outlets.)
21:43:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't think you can say
21:43:27 <zzo38> elliott: I use the default mode of gcc which I think is the "GNU mode", which supports some but not all features of C99.
21:43:42 <Vorpal> elliott, you could do size_t t = f(y); char x[f(y)]; at least
21:43:52 <Vorpal> elliott, you could do size_t t = f(y); char x[t]; at least
21:43:59 <pikhq> fizzie: And here, you can use these: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Cheater_plug_edited.jpg
21:44:12 <zzo38> (There are some features I do not like in C99, though, so I don't use those features.)
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21:44:27 <Vorpal> elliott, of course if f(y) doesn't return a positive integer you would have some issues
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21:46:30 <pikhq> fizzie: Oh, apparently wiring ground to neutral actually is quite unsafe. It can actually cause shocks while the equipment is functioning normally.
21:46:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: Ground fault detection just means there's a box that will go all "oh, I see the power I'm pumping into the phase wire is not going back through the neutral, I guess it is going through some poor guy holding a faulty device instead; I think I'll cut it down"; and do that in a hundred milliseconds or so. It does mean that you won't have to play the part of the grounding wire yourself for more than a while, but that's not exactly pleasant either.
21:47:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, I know what it is
21:47:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, jordfelsbrytare in Swedish
21:47:40 <Vorpal> which is a lot more compact
21:51:13 <fizzie> pikhq: I guess you're referring to something like this happening:
21:51:16 <fizzie> "What are the trade-offs? It is possible that there will be an internal house wiring failure and then the ground on your device will be connected directly to neutral, which will be a bad thing. In this case, touching a case, or similar will be bad for you.
21:51:16 <fizzie> It is possible that there will be an internal failure with a device in use, which may shunt electricity to say a case. In this instance, if the ground is connected to neutral, then it will provide a short to ground at the breaker box (or more likely fuse panel in this case).
21:51:16 <fizzie> I expect the device in use such as a to fail more often than the neutral wire."
21:51:45 <fizzie> (The context is a outlet done with the ground-to-neutral thing.)
21:52:10 <zzo38> I do not need the features of C++ because I can use the feature of Enhanced CWEB to make computation at compile time (and can even make a book).
21:52:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: "vikavirtasuojakytkin"; our word is a bit longer.
21:52:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, and completely unpronounceable to me :P
21:52:56 <fizzie> A four-part compound word; fi:vika → en:fault, fi:virta → en:current, fi:suoja → en:protection, fi:kytkin → en:switch.
21:53:54 <elliott> zzo38: I just want you to know that I tried to re-implement something like your intl code in C and failed because C doesn't let me use a string literal as an array index.
21:54:07 <Vorpal> jord fel (s) brytare for us. The s is just needed to combine the words properly there. It is not really part of any of the words. translates to earth, error/fault, breaker respectively.
21:54:08 <elliott> It would have worked in compilers that use the same address if you mention the same literal twice!
21:54:55 <Vorpal> elliott, he relied on THAT?
21:55:07 <Vorpal> elliott, from what I remember that is only true within a single translation unit
21:55:08 <elliott> Vorpal: No, zzo38 did it all at compile-time.
21:55:12 <elliott> I was trying to do it in plain C!
21:55:27 <elliott> char *foo[] = { ["foo"] = "bar" };
21:55:29 <pikhq> fizzie: What's actually safe to do is just use a GFCI (AKA RCD) outlet...
21:55:30 <Vorpal> elliott, do it in C++ with templates!
21:55:37 <elliott> is apparently disallowed by new standards compliance checks in new gcc that are
21:55:44 <elliott> that's right, it COULD compile my code, it just refuses to
21:55:58 <pikhq> Which, while not providing a convenient ground, will at least result in shorts cutting off power.
21:56:05 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, it fails because C does not have that feature (the preprocessor is not powerful enough). Enhanced CWEB does have that feature (although using a string literal as the array index is not necessary, and it doesn't matter if "abc"=="abc"). (I do not know whether or not you can do these things in C++, though.)
21:56:11 <Vorpal> elliott, gcc doesn't put them all at the same place at -O0, and sometimes doesn't across translation units
21:57:02 <elliott> Vorpal: You mean "always doesn't", surely.
21:57:04 <zzo38> (Actually, C++ probably is unable to do it; can C++ output the needed extra files and everything like that at compile-time?)
21:57:19 <elliott> Vorpal: (G)Just Fucking Cuil It
21:57:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: Ground fault circuit interrupter.
21:57:26 <Vorpal> elliott, always where?
21:57:33 <pikhq> Vorpal: Cuts power when there's a short across ground.
21:57:37 <elliott> Vorpal: "sometimes doesn't across translation units"
21:58:09 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean that sometimes constants end up as one copy in .rodata and sometimes as two
21:58:29 <Vorpal> elliott, it seems to depend on gcc version, compiler flags, and exact construct used
21:58:52 <Vorpal> elliott, for example static const char foo[] = "..."; didn't combine for me once I know
21:58:54 <Ilari> OTOH, one doesn't commonly see IP0x or IP1x devices (any higher, and case prevents direct contact with internals without tools)...
21:59:11 <Vorpal> elliott, while static const char const * foo = "..."; did
21:59:58 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, that was a major issue because I was targeting an embedded system
22:00:08 <Vorpal> and well, that change made it fit :D
22:00:16 <Vorpal> it was 3 bytes to large without
22:00:50 <Vorpal> elliott, well, that would have been more work
22:01:02 <zzo38> elliott: Try to implement something like my intl stuff in plain C or C++, but I think you cannot do so! But try anyways if you want to, maybe you will figure out something else instead.
22:01:21 <Vorpal> elliott, already existed code for it in C
22:01:25 <Vorpal> easier to interface that
22:01:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Of course you get the pleasure of implementing your own Forth in as little asm as you can first.
22:01:33 <Vorpal> than writing your own IO routines and so on
22:01:42 <elliott> Vorpal: It's a port, right?
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22:02:07 <Vorpal> elliott, some memory mapped registers
22:02:16 <Vorpal> elliott, that requires bit twiddling
22:02:31 <elliott> Vorpal: your memory needs covered.
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22:02:52 <elliott> Vorpal: there's a reason forth is common for embedded work :P
22:02:54 <zzo38> Also C@ and C! for single byte fetch/store
22:02:54 <Vorpal> elliott, also it had a weird memory map
22:03:27 <Vorpal> elliott, some addresses doubled as output registers and as ram depending on flags elsewhere :D
22:03:48 <zzo38> When I go to the religious education center, I use Forth to make a database system for them.
22:04:15 <Vorpal> elliott, also I had to interface ROM code on it. Which had a C friendly calling convention
22:04:23 <fizzie> pikhq: Aren't those devices generally only going to trigger only after you've actually gotten a shock? If there's a floating ground and a RCD switch, it'll only trigger when there's actually some current flowing through an alternative path (i.e. you) to real ground. (Of course it's hopefully fast enough.) ... Well, I guess if someone builds that into an actual outlet, they're also going to possibly measure voltage to the ground pins too.
22:04:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Sounds like evil devices.
22:04:41 <Vorpal> elliott, can Lego be evil?
22:04:49 <Vorpal> (yes this is about RCX)
22:04:54 <elliott> Yes. (Ha ha, kiddie university.)
22:04:59 <Vorpal> elliott, not at university
22:05:03 <Vorpal> elliott, it was on my free time :P
22:05:22 <Vorpal> elliott, that one made no sense
22:05:47 <Vorpal> I can't see why people think minecraft is similar to lego
22:06:05 <Vorpal> elliott, yes. Uh so what about TTD?
22:06:17 <Vorpal> elliott, TTD is same as minecraft which is same as lego!
22:06:20 <elliott> It isn't made out of uniformly-sized blocks.
22:06:32 <Vorpal> elliott, nor is lego. Lego technic has lots of shapes
22:06:39 <Vorpal> and that is the lego I'm used to
22:06:53 <Vorpal> elliott, well even old lego has more than one shape
22:07:01 <elliott> Yes, but it's mostly blocks.
22:07:14 <Vorpal> there were 1x1, 1x2, 2x3, 4x2, 4x<longer> and baseplates
22:07:16 <elliott> Also Minecraft has Lego-style physics except idealised (no tipping over, etc.).
22:07:38 <elliott> The baseplate is just a LEGO->real world adapter :P
22:07:40 <Vorpal> elliott, eh perhaps :P
22:07:56 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, there were different heights too
22:08:08 <Vorpal> though not in the oldest version
22:08:11 <pikhq> fizzie: They're supposed to trigger within 25-40 milliseconds, which is well before it can fibrillate your heart.
22:08:49 <elliott> pikhq: I wonder who tests these systems.
22:08:56 <elliott> pikhq: "Okay... I've got my knife... I'm putting it in..."
22:09:06 <elliott> pikhq: "AIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEE!" "Now try licking it."
22:09:11 <Vorpal> elliott, seen the test button on them?
22:09:49 <pikhq> Vorpal: That just tests that they function according to design, not that the design itself is safe. :P
22:09:54 <elliott> pikhq: Can I run ideas for the filesystem/administration part of my services daemon past you?
22:10:32 <elliott> pikhq: Root directory is /sv. If you object, consider: Configuration gets its own directory, why not services?
22:10:37 <Vorpal> elliott, I read somewhere that computers leak minute amounts normally. So at large gaming convetions like dreamhack they have to use one ground fault detector per table rather than one for the building like is normally done
22:10:45 <elliott> pikhq: The service named "foo" is a directory called /sv/foo.
22:10:48 <Vorpal> because those minute amounts add up
22:11:00 <elliott> pikhq: /sv/foo/run is an executable that does the obvious. /sv/foo/needs is a directory; now:
22:11:22 <elliott> pikhq: Either (1) each entry in /sv/foo/needs is a file whose contents are irrelevant, and whose name is the depended-upon service;
22:11:25 <pikhq> Vorpal: Actually, it's that cable insulation leaks minute amounts normally.
22:11:34 <pikhq> Vorpal: A bit more so in 120V/60Hz.
22:11:36 <elliott> pikhq: or (2) each entry in /sv/foo/needs is a symlink that must point to /sv/bar, meaning it depends on the service bar.
22:11:39 <elliott> pikhq: Which do you think is nicer?
22:11:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: Which is why GFCIs in the US are supposed to be per-socket.
22:11:54 <pikhq> Because otherwise it trips a lot.
22:11:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm. I was told this by someone at university who also work for dreamhack. So hm...
22:12:30 <pikhq> elliott: I like the symlink one.
22:13:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, in Sweden it is the norm to have one per building. At least for normal sized buildings. Perhaps multiple if you have huge buildings.
22:13:58 <Vorpal> I mean, this house has exactly one for example.
22:14:24 <Vorpal> pikhq, btw the size of UK plugs seems to be because they contain a fuse
22:14:30 <elliott> pikhq: Okay. What if the symlink points elsewhere? I mean, really, you shouldn't have a service outside /sv. But consider /sv/bar links to /some/other/dir. This is, of course, just fine. But then what if /sv/foo/needs/bar points to /some/other/dir? Having X point to Y, but then Z pointing to X does not behave the same as Z pointing to Y, is perverse.
22:14:35 <Vorpal> "Because typical British circuits (especially ring circuits) can deliver more current than many appliance power cords can safely handle, BS 1363 plugs are required to carry a cartridge fuse."
22:16:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: There's a per-house circuit breaker, a per-circuit circuit breaker, *and* a GFCI for each socket where it's likely to get wet in modern US installations.
22:16:35 <elliott> pikhq: Opinions? I think requiring a symlink is best, but I don't know whether to error out if it points to a non-/sv directory or just accept it and use that as the directory.
22:16:57 <elliott> pikhq: I think the former, since svmg won't know what service "bar" is if you do that and thus it won't be able to start it (I think), and sv(8) definitely won't be able to start/stop/etc. it.
22:17:12 <pikhq> Vorpal: In older ones, there's likely to be just fuses. And any to-code addition of grounded sockets will have GFCI sockets with "ungrounded" labelled on it.
22:17:48 <pikhq> elliott: Error out seems reasonable.
22:17:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, why labeled that?
22:18:16 <elliott> pikhq: Right. But still, that's an X -> Y, but (Z -> X) behaves differently to (Z -> Y) scenario. Weirds me out.
22:18:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: So people can know that the third prong is not actually a ground, but just used for the GFCI to detect a short to ground.
22:18:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, you allow that?
22:18:45 <pikhq> Vorpal: With a GFCI it's perfectly safe.
22:18:59 <Vorpal> then why doesn't everyone just use that?
22:19:11 <pikhq> Because it's nicer to actually have a ground.
22:19:27 <elliott> pikhq: Moving on, how about the way to tell svmg "don't respawn this service, thanks".
22:19:41 <elliott> pikhq: My idea -- which is perhaps a bit odd -- is that you'd chmod -x it for the user svmg is running at (probably root).
22:19:52 <elliott> pikhq: Because svmg would go "okay, if I'm not allowed to run this, I won't".
22:20:01 <elliott> pikhq: And because, well, "no(don't) execute".
22:20:01 <pikhq> elliott: What's odd about that? Seems entirely reasonable usage.
22:20:10 <elliott> pikhq: The file being /sv/foo/run, of course.
22:20:15 <pikhq> You chmod +x if you want it to be ran, and chmod -x if you don't want it to be ran.
22:20:24 <elliott> pikhq: It's odd because it just... seems odd. But okay, I too think it's a good idea.
22:20:37 <pikhq> Seems entirely natural to me.
22:20:56 <elliott> pikhq: sv(8), the management interface, has most of its UI shamelessly stolen from daemontools/runit.
22:21:14 <pikhq> Vorpal: It sure beats people doing shit like plugging a grounded plug into an ungrounded socket.
22:21:31 <pikhq> elliott: It works, doesn't it?
22:21:40 <elliott> pikhq: "sv d foo" (mnemonic: service down foo) is equivalent to "sv i foo; chmod 655 /sv/foo/run" (i for sigint; I might make this "int" to be a bit less confusing)
22:21:53 <elliott> pikhq: And "sv i foo" is equivalent, of course, to "kill -INT $(sv p foo)", where p = pid.
22:21:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, well, they shouldn't.
22:22:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, it says so in the manual
22:22:03 <elliott> pikhq: What $(sv p foo) does, I'm not sure.
22:22:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yup. Doesn't stop people being idiots.
22:22:14 <elliott> pikhq: Possibly, just spits out /sv/foo/pid.
22:22:30 <elliott> pikhq: Which svmg would create with the pid of "run" when it starts, and delete when it exists.
22:22:33 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq: "sv d foo" (mnemonic: service down foo) is equivalent to "sv i foo; chmod 655 /sv/foo/run" (i for sigint; I might make this "int" to be a bit less confusing)
22:22:50 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and I'm going to go ahead and steal /sv/foo/finish, which runs after /sv/foo/run exits.
22:22:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed, but your doesn't stop people using such converters for example. Or from replacing the fuse with a straight metal pin
22:23:02 <elliott> pikhq: So you can use "exec" in /sv/foo/run to get pids working, and still clean up after the fact.
22:23:25 <elliott> pikhq: Which leads only one aspect of design undecided: services that are essentially one service with a number changed. For instance. all your gettys (let's say 6).
22:23:33 <pikhq> Vorpal: Well, there's only so much you can do if people are actually trying to kill themselves.
22:23:48 <elliott> pikhq: Here's what I was thinking: /sv/tty1/run looks at $0, fishes the number out of "/sv/ttyN/run", and starts a getty there.
22:23:50 <pikhq> (replacing a fuse with a straight metal pin? Oh dear God. I'm frightened.)
22:23:54 <elliott> pikhq: Then you symlink /sv/tty[23456] to /sv/tty1.
22:24:00 <elliott> pikhq: This, of course, works just fine, EXCEPT:
22:24:05 <elliott> pikhq: You can't stop one service without stopping all the others.
22:24:13 <elliott> pikhq: Since there's only one /sv/ttyN/run file, and it's /sv/tty1/run.
22:24:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, I heard of that for the main fuse for the house. To save on money having to replace it all the time. Yes horrible
22:24:38 <pikhq> elliott: /sv/ttyN/stop ?
22:24:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, I think it was in US too
22:24:51 <pikhq> Vorpal: Oh dear God that's scary.
22:24:52 <elliott> pikhq: As I said /sv/tty[23456] are a symlink to /sv/tty1.
22:25:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes but there are always idiots.
22:25:17 <pikhq> elliott: /sv/ttyN/stop could look at $0.
22:25:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, lets just hope that the fire doesn't spread
22:25:46 <elliott> pikhq: You... do realise that the purpose of this is that stopping a service is an automatic part of the tool?
22:25:53 <elliott> pikhq: And that stopping a service consists of killing the pid?
22:25:59 <elliott> pikhq: (as well as chmodding the run file)
22:26:05 <elliott> pikhq: And that there'd only be one /sv/ttyN/pid for all ttyN?
22:26:16 <elliott> pikhq: Because it's just /sv/tty1/pid?
22:26:57 <Vorpal> elliott, some stuff wants more than just killing pid to shut down
22:27:05 <Vorpal> elliott, postgresql comes to mind.
22:27:07 <elliott> Vorpal: thus /sv/foo/finish
22:27:13 <elliott> Vorpal: (But those services are badly designed.)
22:27:30 <zzo38> Does Lilypond not produce DVI output? And it works with LaTeX, it won't work with Plain TeX?
22:27:32 <elliott> Vorpal: svmg would run /sv/foo/finish every time /sv/foo/pid dies, though.
22:27:40 <pikhq> elliott: Perhaps you should just consider it a service to get the standard TTYs rather than getting a single TTY.
22:27:48 <Vorpal> elliott, strongwan doesn't have a pid. It is just messing a lot with kernel. And perhaps a keying daemon
22:28:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Then the pid would point to whatever pid the starting shell script would be (which would end with a sleep-forever).
22:28:21 <elliott> Vorpal: When that gets killed -- with no effect, obviously -- /sv/strongswan/finish would be run.
22:28:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Which would then undo al of that.
22:28:30 <elliott> pikhq: That's ugly though. And what about when you run multiple foos for any other foo?
22:28:32 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. I don't think you could shoe-horn that into it.
22:28:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Why not? You can disable strongswan, no?
22:28:50 <elliott> pikhq: You could just symlink the {run,finish} files, but that'd be ugly.
22:28:57 <Vorpal> elliott, well it isn't standard. it's for ipsec
22:29:08 <Vorpal> elliott, it's controlling script has commands like stop and start and so on. So you can just put that as a traditional /etc/init.d/ file
22:29:12 <elliott> Vorpal: You can enable strongswan, yes?
22:29:17 <elliott> Vorpal: And you can disable strongswan, yes?
22:29:37 <elliott> Vorpal: /sv/strongswan/start consists of the commands to enable strongswan, followed by:
22:29:43 <elliott> while :; do sleep 99999; done
22:29:51 <elliott> Vorpal: /sv/strongswan/finish consists of the commands to disable strongswan.
22:30:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Erm. /sv/strongswan/run, not start.
22:30:26 <elliott> Vorpal: svmg would make /sv/strongswan/pid the pid of the shell script that's sleeping forever. When that gets killed, svmg would run /sv/strongswan/finish.
22:30:33 <elliott> See? Works perfectly. No fuss at all.
22:30:42 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway there are some stuff that doesn't fit into it easily. Stuff that only starts. fsck comes to mind. So does "set cpu-speed governor to ondemand"
22:30:45 <elliott> Hmm, I should include a command sleep-forever, or something.
22:30:49 <elliott> That does "while :; do sleep 99999; done".
22:30:56 <ais523> elliott: isn't a directory for services called /etc/init.d?
22:31:01 <elliott> Vorpal: fsck goes into your /etc/rc.start.
22:31:07 <elliott> ais523: no, that's a directory of scripts to control services
22:31:10 <Vorpal> elliott, how linear :P
22:31:18 <elliott> Vorpal: put an & after it :P
22:31:38 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to still order it properly though with regards to other stuff
22:31:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Setting cpu-speed governor too, although you *could* do it like you do strongswan, but it'd be a waste of a process.
22:32:02 <zzo38> That is the problem, how many things GNU Lilypond requirement for compiling (and for running, too), and yet it won't make proper DVI files.
22:32:02 <elliott> Vorpal: So put it in /etc/rc.start :P
22:32:09 <elliott> ais523: in my model, it's unneeded, as all services are controlled the same way and so there's one simple program to do it
22:32:25 <elliott> zzo38: Lilypond isn't LaTeX or TeX.
22:32:28 <Vorpal> elliott, still, this will not have a nice bootchart. Not when compared with upstart or systemd
22:32:32 <elliott> It's just similar to TeX in command syntax.
22:32:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Hehe, no, it will have a nicer bootchart.
22:32:51 <elliott> Vorpal: This will be a *lot* faster than most vother systems.
22:32:57 <zzo38> elliott: I know it is not LaTeX or TeX. But it says it can work with LaTeX.
22:33:02 <elliott> Vorpal: All it is is dependency-based service starting.
22:33:03 <Vorpal> elliott, well perhaps due to doing less
22:33:14 <zzo38> Even if it isn't, it should still produce DVI file. Because DVI file is a good format.
22:33:24 <elliott> Vorpal: It, literally, starts up services in optimal, concurrent dependency other.
22:33:33 <Vorpal> elliott, but shell script during boot is suboptimal. for rc.start
22:33:51 <elliott> Vorpal: Make it a C program. It's really irrelevant; I doubt the bootchart freaks even run fsck.
22:33:58 <zzo38> And it has a lot of requirements http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.12/Documentation/user/lilypond-program/Requirements#Requirements
22:34:21 <elliott> Vorpal: fsck whatever 2>&1 >>/var/log/fsck.log
22:34:35 <elliott> Vorpal: (Okay, if fsck fails you need to fix stuff.)
22:34:46 <elliott> zzo38: Those are just dependencies for compiling.
22:34:48 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway there is stuff that can be done in parallel but you need to order them with respect to each other. such as fsck -> mount -> anything that needs that partition
22:34:59 <elliott> zzo38: See the running dependencies, they are much smaller.
22:35:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Well this is simple: you have a service that's like a runlevel.
22:35:26 <Vorpal> elliott, or network -> anything needing lo, vs. network -> anything needing actual internet connection
22:35:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Come up with a name for each "runlevel", make its dependencies be whatever services you want at that point, put fsck and the like and then wait-forever in its run script, don't have a finish script unless you need to.
22:35:42 <Vorpal> the former could be lots of stuff. The latter might be stuff like dyndns client
22:35:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Then have the next runlevel depend on that.
22:35:52 <elliott> Vorpal: And have commands and services you need in that.
22:35:53 <Vorpal> elliott, you use runlevels!?
22:36:10 <elliott> Vorpal: I WAS SHOWING HOW YOU COULD EMBED THAT KIND OF ORDERING INTO THIS SYSTEM IN A MANNER *LIKE* RUNLEVELS
22:36:28 <zzo38> elliott: I did see the running dependencies too. I still think the running dependencies are also more than it should be.
22:37:17 <Vorpal> elliott, will you cache deps? To avoid reading lots of files at boot to figure out the deps. You could stat() to check that cache is up-to-date
22:37:32 <Vorpal> iirc gentoo did something like that.
22:37:44 <Vorpal> stat() is a lot faster than actually reading the files
22:37:55 <elliott> Vorpal: stat() also gives symlink destination.
22:38:01 <elliott> Vorpal: As all dependencies are symlinks... tada.
22:38:13 <elliott> Vorpal: So really, I have to list the /needs directory of each service, and stat() them.
22:38:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Which does not take long at all./
22:38:21 <Vorpal> elliott, well if you want to look at the actual symlink you might want readlink or such
22:38:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Besides, I hardly think 5 second bootup vs 2 second bootup *matters*.
22:38:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Because (1) who boots that often? and (2) who is THAT impatient?
22:38:58 <elliott> Vorpal: I question the tradeoffs taken to super-optimise things really.
22:39:16 <elliott> Vorpal: If you really want a 2-second boot, write your own init as a C program doing system() a lot. You can even control the exact concurrency in it, too.
22:39:23 <elliott> (shells are TOO EXPENSIVE!)
22:39:30 <Vorpal> elliott, sure it does for embedded systems.
22:39:40 <elliott> Vorpal: What kind of embedded system uses an init system X_X
22:39:54 <Vorpal> elliott, your dishwasher might! XD
22:40:10 <Vorpal> executing /etc/init.d/wash
22:40:17 <elliott> Vorpal: The day my dishwasher uses Linux is the day I give up on electricity.
22:40:23 <elliott> Thankfully appliance designers are saner than software developers.
22:40:31 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway that netbsd toaster probably did
22:40:50 <Vorpal> elliott, sure about that? Very often they make too few buttons do too many things
22:41:02 <Vorpal> like when hold down for several seconds
22:41:06 <Vorpal> it does something else
22:41:09 <elliott> Vorpal: "tend to be saner" got lost in my non-linear sentence writing style.
22:41:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, I meant appliance internal designers.
22:41:34 <elliott> Who don't design the interface.
22:41:42 <Vorpal> elliott, that could be
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22:41:55 <Vorpal> elliott, actually: more buttons -> easier to use
22:42:08 <elliott> Vorpal: I'll get on making the thousand-button dishwasher.
22:42:14 <elliott> Vorpal: What you mean to say is too few buttons -> harder to use.
22:42:22 <Vorpal> elliott, heard about optimising functions :P
22:42:36 <Vorpal> well you just moved way out the other direction
22:43:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway to be honest /etc/rc.start is not really that useful as it's basically a service.
22:43:45 <elliott> Vorpal: In fact, I am considering extending my design slightly based on that and that ... swan thing.
22:43:45 <Vorpal> elliott, my stock example of this are two HP printers. Inkjet yes. One is a simple printer. The other is a multi-function scanner/printer/copier. The plain printer has three buttons: power, arrow-symbol, paper-symbol. And 4 leds: power, X, paper symbol, ink symbol.
22:43:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Instead of /sv/foo/run, you can have /sv/foo/start.
22:44:06 <elliott> Vorpal: /sv/foo/pid will get "-1" in it or something.
22:44:06 <Vorpal> the multifunction one has a two line display and many buttons with texted labels
22:44:10 <elliott> Vorpal: And /sv/foo/start can exit.
22:44:16 <elliott> Vorpal: The service is assumed to never die.
22:44:26 <Vorpal> the multifunction one is *way* easier to figure out how to replace ink cartridge in
22:44:26 <elliott> Vorpal: The question is then how to kill it :)
22:44:38 <Vorpal> and figure out that it means paper jam
22:44:43 <elliott> Vorpal: People think removing shit = easy to use. This is nothing new.
22:44:52 <Vorpal> elliott, and they are wrong
22:45:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Of course. It just happens that a more usable design often tends to have less shit than the existing design.
22:45:25 <Vorpal> elliott, because one of them blinks different patterns for paper jam, out of black ink, out of coloured ink
22:45:29 <elliott> Vorpal: But this is just because good design tends to be simple. And people think that "simpler" by a bad definition of simpler implies easier to use.
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22:45:39 <elliott> This is because they have a severe brain deficiency in the logic lobe.
22:45:50 <Vorpal> the other says "Out of ink\n<scrolling text>Helpful description</scrolling text>"
22:46:18 <Vorpal> helpful description contains which cartridge and also order number
22:46:39 <Vorpal> iirc also "lift top cover then see instruction on label printed just inside
22:46:45 <elliott> (I presume Vorpal has seen Office Space.)
22:47:34 <Vorpal> elliott, what was PC LOAD LETTER now again?
22:47:55 <elliott> It actually means "give me letter-sized paper", where letter = one of the few american formats (other is legal)
22:48:03 <elliott> PC is just the legacy two-letter code for it when they could only show two letters.
22:48:08 <elliott> It was included in the longer display for no real reason.
22:48:13 <elliott> Vorpal: so tl;dr out of paper
22:48:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Now tell me you've seen Office Space.
22:48:35 <Vorpal> Office Space? Is that the weird thing in recent MS office?
22:48:46 <Vorpal> if not: I have no idea
22:49:02 <Vorpal> (not a bad guess you have to admit)
22:49:18 <elliott> Vorpal: It's THE iconic tech-cubicle-job comedy. (Even though it involves very little cubicles really).
22:49:21 <elliott> Uhh... I can't describe it.
22:49:30 <elliott> Vorpal: I would be surprised if a single person on Slashdot had not seen it.
22:49:31 <Vorpal> elliott, youtube link?
22:49:46 <Vorpal> elliott, then I'll skip
22:50:03 * elliott wonders if Vorpal doesn't watch any films at all
22:50:16 <Vorpal> elliott, not recently anything longer than 20 minutes no
22:50:26 <poiuy_qwert> T-th-thats m-my stapler.. Swi... Swingling... M-my st-stapler
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22:54:15 <elliott> pikhq: Why isn't there a sleep-forever tool in Unix toolchests? Discuss.
22:54:30 <elliott> pikhq: I would call it "die", except that'd be like "exit".
22:55:32 <Ilari> To hold one end of pipe?
22:55:36 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:56:05 <elliott> Ilari: Sure. Or, e.g., to have a service process that actually just runs some things and then does nothing.
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22:56:58 <poiuy_qwert> lol leave my typos alone, their self-conscious :(
22:57:53 <pikhq> elliott: No good reason.
22:58:13 <pikhq> elliott: Sleeping forever is so obviously something that you would want to do.
22:58:43 <pikhq> It's so very natural when you've got interrupts.
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22:59:49 <pikhq> Hrm. Why is letter-sized paper used in Canada & Mexico? 8½x11 inches makes no sense at all in metric...
23:00:02 <pikhq> (215.9mm x 279.4mm)
23:01:09 <elliott> pikhq: I guess with getty you'd just link the run script and deal with it.
23:01:27 <elliott> pikhq: Although rather than peeking directly at $0, it should probably do ". $(dirname 0)/config" or something.
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23:03:18 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm. Since wait and friends don't have something like wait_select, seems I'll have a separate process for each server. (I like how this is just looking more and more like daemontools.)
23:03:47 <elliott> svmg: Monitor directory, make sure svrun is started for every directory, including new ones.
23:04:25 <elliott> svrun: Start ./run if we can execute it; put its pid in ./pid; run ./finish once it dies; repeat.
23:05:11 <elliott> pikhq: And of course sv: take commands, do shit.
23:08:10 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and rebooting is of course just -x'ing /sv for root (or something of that description?), SIGINTing everything, SIGKILLing everything, and telling the kernel about it.
23:18:58 * pikhq discovers that his post-processing filters for making bad video look not-terrible also make good video look a bit worse...
23:19:01 <elliott> pikhq: Now all you have to do is name the program that does "while true; do sleep 32000; done".
23:19:24 <elliott> pikhq: Brilliant! Excellent! And a total litigation magnet. Pick again :P
23:20:14 <elliott> pikhq: snore would be the side-effects of sleep :P
23:20:39 <pikhq> If only hibernate weren't already used.
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23:21:39 <elliott> pikhq: By the way, I would like to recommend http://rtomayko.github.com/ronn/ as a non-insane way to write man pages. It's based on Markdown.
23:21:49 <elliott> pikhq: (Code: https://github.com/rtomayko/ronn) Unfortunately it depends on Ruby.
23:22:28 <elliott> pikhq: Also gem(1), so, yeah, bad language-specific package manager.
23:23:03 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:23:03 <pikhq> Nice input, though.
23:23:10 <pikhq> Also, it produces nice HTML.
23:23:27 <elliott> pikhq: It does. It's also customisable if you really want to.
23:23:31 <elliott> pikhq: You can disable the TOC if it's fluff.
23:23:47 <elliott> Unfortunately it uses CSS justification, so no hyphenation or anything. Le sigh.
23:24:39 <pikhq> And even the raw input is quite readable.
23:24:56 <pikhq> Of course, that's because it's based on Markdown.
23:24:57 <elliott> Well, yeah, it's just markdown :P
23:25:25 <pikhq> AKA "plain text that you can get rich text out of"
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23:27:29 <Vorpal> elliott, download finished a while ago btw
23:27:37 <Vorpal> elliott, still uploading to you and other peers I see
23:28:34 <elliott> Vorpal: I have everything but the GNU and PORT files actually.
23:28:38 <Vorpal> took 2 hours 18 minutes
23:29:25 <Sgeo> When I was younger, I decided to extend odd/even to the rationals
23:30:00 <Sgeo> When reduced to simplest form, even/odd = even, odd/odd = odd, odd/even = third option which I called "hodd"
23:30:05 * Vorpal uses the decringer on elliott
23:30:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, I shouldn't really cringe. That he thought about mathematics is a good sign.
23:30:28 <Sgeo> half-odd. Better than "half-even"
23:31:05 <Vorpal> anyway, that system doesn't make a lot of sense
23:31:19 <Vorpal> why would even/odd be even, and odd/even be half-odd?
23:31:24 <Vorpal> and what about even/even?
23:31:34 <Sgeo> even/even -> something that isn't even/even
23:31:42 <elliott> Vorpal: even/even isn't simplest form.
23:31:49 <Vorpal> elliott, true. Just sleepy
23:32:04 <elliott> Hmm. What kind of structure are the even integers?
23:32:17 <Sgeo> Well, this system fit into the multiplication laws. odd * odd = odd
23:32:20 <Vorpal> Sgeo, so 1/2 was hodd. But 2/3 was even?
23:32:26 <Vorpal> that seems backwards to me
23:32:35 <Sgeo> What's hodd * even?
23:32:39 <Sgeo> You can't tell
23:32:39 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why that way around
23:32:58 <Sgeo> If you had 1/2 be even or something, then even * even = unpredictable
23:33:06 <Sgeo> Which violates even * even = even
23:34:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless even/even = even, in which case it still holds.
23:34:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: even * hodd = odd
23:34:38 <Vorpal> so it is inconsistent then
23:34:42 <coppro> goddamnned multiplicative functions
23:35:08 <Sgeo> (even * odd) / (odd * even) = even/even which isn't simplest form
23:35:20 <Sgeo> So I have no idea what Phantom_Hoover's on about
23:35:23 <coppro> admittedly, I didn't pay attention at all in class that week, because we had a piss-poor substitute lecturer
23:36:54 <Sgeo> Also, consider this:
23:37:00 <Sgeo> Naturals are simply somenumber/1
23:38:10 <elliott> pikhq: Wait, -x'ing /sv is totally unneeded. I think.
23:38:21 <elliott> pikhq: Surely if you kill an svrun process -- those are the ones run for each service -- it'll stop supervising that service?
23:38:29 <elliott> pikhq: But then, svmg should probably respawn it. Hm.
23:38:31 <Sgeo> So odd/1 needs to be odd, and even/1 needs to be even
23:39:48 <Sgeo> "hodd" is a weird term, since it's really more of an anti-even. It sucks evenness away
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23:42:48 <oklopol> Sgeo: you can't divide by even
23:43:17 <Sgeo> And predict the result, you mean?
23:43:30 <zzo38> What is a simple way to explain what "keywords" means in Magic Set Editor, so that I can explain the similar thing in TeXnicard?
23:43:40 <Sgeo> You can't even with just integers
23:43:50 <Sgeo> 4/4 is odd. 8/4 is even
23:43:59 <Sgeo> 3/4 is outside the scope of integers
23:44:40 <oklopol> coppro: what's wrong with multiplicative functions? aren't they like the sexiest ring ever
23:45:03 <oklopol> Sgeo: yeah, that's what i mean. you can't do it.
23:45:48 <Sgeo> I guess this is a significant problem? You also can't multiply hodd * even
23:45:58 <Sgeo> And predict the result
23:46:10 <Sgeo> Same thing, really
23:46:11 <oklopol> odd and even are just pet names for the elements of Z_2
23:46:20 <oklopol> it's a field, even is its zero element
23:47:04 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes. I think that can be a way of it working?
23:48:01 <zzo38> oklopol: That you can use "odd" and "even" for elements of Z_2 and then multiply by them. (You can't divide always if it is Z)
23:49:02 <oklopol> parity is a ring homomorphism from Z to Z_2
23:50:21 <Ilari> Hah... "This stuff is like a molotov cocktail for your coronary arteries!".
23:50:22 <zzo38> oklopol: I think it is now a better way to say it.
23:50:37 <zzo38> Ilari: What stuff is?
23:51:43 <Ilari> Some "heart healthy" margarine. Oh, that stuff contains "partially hydrogenated <some oil>", a.k.a. techno trans fats.
23:54:33 <Ilari> Heh... If some product around here has the "heart healthy" logo, I interpret it as "heart dangerous".
23:55:08 <oklopol> who cares about health tho
23:55:46 <oklopol> i'll probably live forever anyway
23:56:11 <pikhq> zzo38: Anything that is a form of keyword in Magic.
23:56:28 <pikhq> zzo38: For more details, read the hundred-odd page Comprehensive Rules.
23:56:37 <Ilari> (not to mention, those products likely taste like shit...)
23:56:43 <oklopol> trample, first strike etc?
23:56:53 <pikhq> oklopol: Those are examples of keywords, yes.
23:57:43 <pikhq> Ilari: Oh, margarine. Tastes like shit and... Tastes like shit.
23:57:44 <oklopol> Ilari: what's that logo in finnish, maybe i know it
23:57:56 <Ilari> oklopol: "Parempi valinta".
23:58:05 <oklopol> hmm. okay i'm not sure i know that.
23:58:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, real and pure butter ftw
23:58:26 <pikhq> Damned straight. Butter is delicious.
23:58:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, not healthy in too large doses either
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23:59:19 <pikhq> Yes, there is such a thing as too much fat.
23:59:22 <Ilari> Yeah, everything is a poison with large enough dose... But just how much that would be for butter (likely: a shitton of it)...
23:59:53 <pikhq> And butter is nothing more than an emulsion of water in fat, so... Yeah.
00:00:34 <Vorpal> Ilari, true but some faster than others. I would suspect butter becomes bad in doeses smaller than, say, vitamin C. :P
00:01:04 <Vorpal> iirc vitamin C is quite hard to take too much of
00:01:17 <Ilari> 10 grams of butter is nothing. 10g of vitamin C is quite a lot...
00:01:28 <Vorpal> Ilari, I meant compared to normal
00:01:34 <Vorpal> Ilari, as in 200% of normal
00:01:47 <Vorpal> Ilari, not in absolute weight
00:01:47 <oklopol> can you actually take visible amounts of it? are c vitamin pills actually just... c vitamin?
00:03:13 <pikhq> oklopol: Some people suggest a 6 to 18 gram dose. (the efficacy of this has not been shown in clinical trials)
00:03:40 <oklopol> okay, that's what i thought
00:04:08 <oklopol> for some reason "vitamin" sounds like something you only take one microgram a week
00:04:10 <pikhq> Which, incidentally, *has* been shown to have negative side effects.
00:04:40 <Vorpal> for rats LD_50 of vitamin C is "11.9 grams per kilogram of body weight" according to wikipedia. Which seems rather non-toxic
00:04:54 <Vorpal> it is unknown for humans
00:05:35 <pikhq> Vorpal: Lethal dosage is generally well above where negative side effects appear...
00:05:37 <Vorpal> oklopol, I refuse to believe that statement!
00:06:06 <pikhq> Anyways. People can clearly get away with taking freaking grams of Vitamin C.
00:06:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, yep, you need quite a bit for indigestion. Which seems to be the main side effect for large doses
00:06:28 <Ilari> Wonder what LD_50 of linolic acid would be to rats...
00:06:54 <pikhq> Not that it's a good idea — people can also get away with eating kilograms of just fat, but it's not exactly a good idea.
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00:08:01 <Ilari> Overeating is not a good idea (fortunately, it isn't easy to do)...
00:08:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, also wikipedia notes that the method of death in rats by vitamin C is unknown, with speculation about it being "more mechanical than chemical"
00:09:05 <elliott> Yeah, it jams up their brain.
00:09:33 <Vorpal> elliott, well I presume it means something less literal than that :P
00:10:37 <Ilari> Whacky ways to die: Some chemical that disturbs mitochondrial proton storage (for ATP synthethis): Overdose on it and death is because body cooks itself with all the heat from metabolism...
00:10:43 <elliott> # sleep 1 ensures that xargs will have time to start up
00:10:43 <elliott> # this makes pslist less prone to random jitter
00:10:43 <elliott> pslist=`{ sleep 1; ps -A -o comm=; } | xargs`
00:10:49 <pikhq> Vorpal: So, something similar to how water has an LD50 because it can cause cells to burst via osmosis.
00:11:03 <elliott> pikhq: water can fuck up your something-something balance
00:11:17 <pikhq> Too much water can fuck up a lot of things.
00:11:17 <elliott> ais523 said he drunk something that was specifically balanced so that LD50 = infinity :P
00:12:38 <pikhq> Is called "saline".
00:12:50 <elliott> pslist=`{ sleep 1; ps -A -o comm=; } | xargs`
00:13:01 <elliott> I love how, naively read, this duplicates every process :)
00:13:04 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Vorpal: So, something similar to how water has an LD50 because it can cause cells to burst via osmosis. <-- presumably
00:13:09 <elliott> pikhq: No, it was actually *really* impossible to overdose on.
00:13:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Torrent done. brb.
00:14:08 <Vorpal> elliott, otherwise you are a douchebag to all the other peers
00:16:21 <Ilari> Heh... I don't remember what was LC_50 for freons... Something really high.
00:16:37 <Ilari> IIRC, something like 13%...
00:16:52 <Vorpal> Ilari, uh... freons? Well do you include the ozone hole then?
00:20:14 <Vorpal> you could presumably calculate a planet wide LD_50
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00:30:15 <coppro> oklopol: they are annoying to work with imo
00:30:23 <coppro> and I say that because I'm working with them right now
00:30:28 <coppro> and they're annoying :X
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00:47:46 <elliott> Vorpal: I will. Although there will be obvious computer-turned-off outages.
00:48:40 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: Later).
00:50:06 <elliott> Anyone experienced with Kbuild (i.e. make menuconfig style systems)?
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00:58:39 <elliott> Vorpal: "WARNING : Ethernet adapter, which is assigned to CHARON, must not be used by third-party programs."
01:01:36 <gm|lap> i read that as CHACARON
01:02:53 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, BusyBox lowdown: It can build everything dynamically linked to a library, but it can't build that library statically yet.
01:03:02 <elliott> pikhq: Apparently patches are accepted :P
01:03:11 <elliott> pikhq: But I'll have to add a setting to the Kbuild... and I have no idea how to.
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01:15:01 <dbelange> http://ask.slashdot.org/story/10/11/13/1742253/Which-Language-To-Learn
01:15:52 <elliott> coppro: is that the guy or is that the other guy
01:16:00 <elliott> god, it's so hard to tell you canadians apart, why can't there be only one of you?
01:18:05 <elliott> coppro: have you got sticks and rocks?
01:18:10 <elliott> or will we have to settle for rocks and sticks
01:20:30 <coppro> elliott: rocks and tree
01:20:44 <elliott> coppro: Tress *and* trees?
01:21:32 <elliott> coppro: But what about the tress?
01:21:40 <coppro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asqWMKju-0A
01:24:18 <elliott> <coppro> elliott: rocks and tree
01:24:24 <elliott> coppro: I'm asking about the tress.
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01:29:57 <elliott> pikhq: Let's hear it for dup2! Best system call in all the land!
01:31:08 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm. Opinion: Services should be run with >log 2>&1, not having stderr to a separate file.
01:31:20 <elliott> Justification: What kind of service prints to stdout, anyway? And it's useful to see the ordering.
01:34:14 <elliott> --w----r-T 1 elliott elliott 3 Nov 14 01:33 log
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01:48:46 <coppro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cDFB00iVp0
01:49:12 <coppro> (and yes, the physics is wrong. The person responsible for the comments has informed me of this)
01:52:26 <elliott> coppro: It's like a spinning top but AWESOME.
01:52:44 <elliott> Never mind, it's just awesome.
01:53:02 <coppro> yeah, it's actually floating
01:53:39 <coppro> all the reasearch going into HTSCs for maglevs could make the best trains ever
01:53:53 <coppro> I also love how superconductors basically make holes in magnetic fields
01:59:32 <elliott> right now, i'm debugging my service manager. 's integer printing function
01:59:51 <coppro> also really cool are maglev systems that require no electromagnets
02:00:02 <elliott> i should just use libowfat or something
02:00:33 <coppro> the track consists of copper coils, and the train has permanent magnets. The train's motion induces a sufficient magnetic field to levitate it
02:00:48 <coppro> downside is there's a lot of electromagnetic drag
02:00:59 <coppro> and you'd need some serious engines (jet engines, anyone?)
02:02:24 <elliott> what's wrong with electromagic :
02:02:31 <elliott> (fucking magnets, how do they work?)
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02:09:35 <pikhq> Wow. That's awesome. Liquid nitrogen is apparently used to work on pipes...
02:09:52 <pikhq> When there's not an off-valve, they'll use it to freeze the pipe so that water won't flow through it.
02:13:10 <coppro> elliott: electromagnets require power
02:13:45 <coppro> elliott: But if you have a permanent magnet, you have more power to spend
02:14:53 <coppro> well, that would be needed if you wanted to go really fast, yes
02:15:04 <pikhq> Or just a vaccuum.
02:15:50 <coppro> although it would be really cool to have a train that ran in an evacuated tube
02:16:00 <coppro> the efficiency would be mindboggling
02:16:43 <coppro> (but the construction costs would be obscene, and safety would be a massive concern
02:16:58 <pikhq> Works better if you move everyone TO THE MOON
02:17:10 <pikhq> Problem: now you need to have not-vaccuum.
02:17:26 <coppro> you could even use maglev in a vacuum
02:17:34 <pikhq> Darned hypercorrection.
02:17:39 <coppro> and if you use alternative electromagnetic propulsion...
02:33:25 <elliott> <coppro> although it would be really cool to have a train that ran in an evacuated tube
02:33:29 <elliott> i can see problems with entering the tube...
02:41:18 <dbelange> You can enter my tube any time ;)
02:41:48 <dbelange> Or: I can see problems with entering your mom's tube (chlamydia)
02:41:59 <elliott> dbelange: Sure, we can put a gigantic train in your urethra.
02:45:33 <coppro> google hits for "have sex with my life": 3
02:45:53 <coppro> google hits for "fuck my life": 6770000
02:46:34 <elliott> googly hits for "engage in sexual intercourse with my sentient existence": 0
02:49:13 <coppro> yeah, that language sucks
02:49:16 <elliott> dbelange: ML is a perfectly cromulent language!
02:50:31 <coppro> the scary thing is the dbelange fits right in
02:51:27 <elliott> dbelange is dead, netcraft confirms it
02:52:08 <elliott> coppro: i was going to argue, but yeah :P
02:52:55 <elliott> (Imagine a Beowulf cluster of dbelanges.)
02:59:06 <elliott> wtf, why does my program work when writing to stdout but not this file...
03:03:31 <coppro> elliott: because you lol
03:05:52 <elliott> coppro: but my code am perfect
03:14:38 <elliott> coppro: mayn't amn't is't?
03:21:11 <elliott> coppro: no i swear to god, "pid" changes depending on what file i write it to
03:24:59 <elliott> coppro: BUT THAT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL
03:25:13 <elliott> it's 9389 or similar when fd=1
03:25:20 <elliott> but 0, always, when fd=thefile
03:26:24 <elliott> coppro: wow, posix requires pid_t to be signed
03:26:28 <elliott> coppro: them negative pids
03:29:05 <elliott> coppro: I swear to god, this writes "0\n" to the file and the right pid to stdout.
03:29:08 <elliott> I DON'T GET IT FFFFFFFFFFF
03:35:21 <elliott> coppro: this is literally driving me insane explain it
03:35:35 <coppro> elliott: dbelange's mother
03:35:46 <elliott> coppro has been taken over by dbelange
03:37:55 <elliott> coppro: no seriously, what???
03:38:10 <elliott> it isn't an io problem, i checked
03:38:17 <elliott> the integer is literally 0 then and only then
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03:38:53 <coppro> elliott: you're a loser
03:39:08 <Gregor> Oh pooppy, why ya gotta be so mean?
03:39:45 <elliott> Gregor: HOW CAN WRITEL SEE PID AS 0 IN THE SECOND CALL, AND IN *NO OTHER CALL*?
03:39:51 <elliott> I *checked*, it is actually seeing it as 0.
03:39:55 <elliott> int writel(int fd, long i)
03:39:57 <elliott> char s[(sizeof(long)*CHAR_BIT)/3];
03:39:57 <elliott> if (!i) return writes(fd, "0");
03:40:00 <elliott> That bit of code *gets executed*.
03:40:45 <coppro> argh damn you perfect numbers!
03:45:52 <coppro> also <3 <3 <3 metroid music
03:47:29 <elliott> If pid is negative but not (pid_t)-1, sig will be sent to
03:47:29 <elliott> all processes whose process group ID is equal to the abso-
03:47:29 <elliott> lute value of pid and for which the process has permission
03:49:09 <elliott> http://thehiawathatriad.org/home/?page_id=1780 "Web 4.0, IPv8 & Exploration"
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04:41:08 <zzo38> What does this mean? sdIv:;aL{l*h?[?Q4-xiYf9QSi3U&7edDCVZ3z<t
04:42:48 <zzo38> I saw a request "CONNECT 213.92.8.7:31204 HTTP/1.0" on the log file (this request was denied; I do not allow that method to be used on my server), but when I try to connect to it, that is the strange message I get.
04:43:37 <zzo38> I also get a lot of requests that seem like they were probably meant for other servers.
04:43:56 <zzo38> Such as this one: "GET /m/search?site=images&q=true+blood+cover HTTP/1.1"
04:45:08 <zzo38> I also get many proxy requests.
04:49:38 <zzo38> And what request is this? "GET /img8/components/com_google_maps/google_maps.php?mosConfig_absolute_path=http://musicadelibreria.net/footer?? HTTP/1.1"
04:50:21 <zzo38> Or the even more strange one that inserts /?S=D/ between /img8/ and /components/
04:52:54 <zzo38> I also seem to get many requests for Mario Fan Games Galaxy Wiki. Well, too bad; my computer does not serve that wiki.
04:54:47 <olsner> in other news, brussel sprouts are slightly bitter
04:55:27 <zzo38> If you do not like it, then do not eat it. But if you like it despite slightly bitter, then please eat it anyways.
04:57:02 <olsner> I don't not like it so I won't not eat it, and since I do like it I will eat it anyways.
04:57:17 <olsner> incidentally I just ran out of sprouts
04:57:43 <zzo38> Well, TOO BAD NOW YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT
04:57:50 <olsner> and the holy mountain is a mighty weird movie
04:58:08 <zzo38> Then write a review of it.
04:58:36 <olsner> No. That's not a thing I do.
04:58:54 <zzo38> Then someone else can write a review of it.
04:59:08 <olsner> they probably already have
04:59:36 <olsner> OK. We're in agreement then.
05:00:24 <olsner> this movie features a dwarf with no legs and no arms
05:04:54 <zzo38> Why do I get all of these strange requests on my HTTP server?
05:05:00 <zzo38> I even got this: "\xf9\xee\xe8\x1clg\x9e\xbe\xf7\xbcI\xf6\xa6\x9f\xc3\xb9\xcdV\xce\xabF\x82\xf3\x1e)\xf0"
05:07:57 <pikhq> http://yfrog.com/i3offmodelandersonp That's one amazing mouth.
05:08:12 <pikhq> It's, all, 90° to the right of the face.
05:59:11 <Ilari> zzo38: What host do those strange requests have?
06:35:59 <zzo38> Ilari: They come from various sources
06:36:13 <zzo38> I do not know what Host: header or any other headers
06:36:29 <zzo38> (The headers and POST data are not logged)
06:36:46 <zzo38> (But the response code is logged, and the response length is also logged)
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08:35:40 <ais523> ugh, Evolution has managed to screw up in a really crazy way I haven't seen before
08:35:54 <ais523> there are a huge number of messages in a folder, but it isn't displaying any but one of them no matter what I do
08:36:20 <ais523> (the messages themselves are still there; I managed to import the folder into Evolution by referencing it by filename and they all came back again, and checked against a backup to make sure)
08:36:55 <ais523> also, the folder in question is impossible to delete, because it tries to delete "all messages" in the folder, missing the 1672 that aren't shown, then complains the folder isn't empty
08:37:15 <ais523> I tried overwriting the only differing file with one from my backup, but Evolution just changes it back
09:01:18 <ais523> local mbox, getting the messages via POP3
09:01:39 <ais523> well, that particular mbox is getting the messages via me moving them from elsewhere
09:05:02 <ais523> I know what triggered the glitch, too: me pressing return in a search box with no text in it
09:05:12 <ais523> I won't do that again...
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09:36:27 <Ilari> Heh... Reminds me of trying to open maildir in mutt that is missing some of the required subdirectories...
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12:02:01 <oklopol> don't some trains already levitate? or maybe i just saw that in a dream.
12:02:27 <Phantom_Hoover> They do if they're maglev, but that doesn't really count.
12:03:07 <coppro> it's just so much cooler with a superconductor
12:03:13 <coppro> it's literally a floating hunk of rock
12:03:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a great temptation to redo my Newtonian simulator with relativistic mechanics...
12:03:45 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: fine. metal
12:04:22 <Phantom_Hoover> And you need to have a massive cooling apparatus next to it, which detracts from the awesome somewhat.
12:04:45 <coppro> all you need is liquid nitrogen
12:04:46 <coppro> incidentally, my school apparently leaves access open to the N_{2(\ell)} and CO_{2(\ell)}
12:05:31 <Phantom_Hoover> My parents did some stuff with liquid nitrogen when I was little, although the reason we had it was rather prosaic.
12:05:50 <coppro> you can do tons of cool stuff with liquid N2
12:06:23 <coppro> (I should mention that the liquid CO2 is very dangerous as it's at high pressure)
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12:08:26 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: make YBCO superconduct, for one thing!
12:08:29 <Phantom_Hoover> It would either solidify or evaporate when you let it out of its high-pressure environment.
12:09:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Doing a relativistic simulator could be tricky, though...
12:10:13 <Phantom_Hoover> For one thing, you can't really escape having a fixed frame of reference easily.
12:10:29 <Phantom_Hoover> And then the FP calculations will screw everything up.
12:12:59 <coppro> I wonder if it's possible to physically touch supercritical CO2 without killing yourself... no, actually, it must be
12:13:18 <coppro> but you'd need a hyperbaric chamber and the wait would probably be far more than it's worth
12:13:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Since I set \delta{t} to be 0.1, so the timekeeping gets steadily less accurate.
12:13:49 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, we really need to make a plugin for XChat which renders LaTeX.
12:24:15 <coppro> use infinity precision
12:24:45 <coppro> (and symbolic math, of course)
12:29:54 <coppro> you model the entire system as a gigantic DE
12:35:36 <Ilari> Special Relativistic or General Relativistic?
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13:39:34 <Ilari> Could be fun to write planetary orbit simulator that allows to choose between few different models of gravity...
13:43:57 <Ilari> Like, more than just newtonian and GR (there are more models than that...)
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13:48:29 <Ilari> I don't know more worthwhile-to-implement motion models than newtonian and SR. With gravity, it gets more diverse...
13:56:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, doing GR would be a start towards the non-Euclidean raytracer.
13:59:04 <elliott> Seriously, I *cannot* figure out what is wrong with this C.
14:00:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://sprunge.us/iZJa
14:00:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The same number in the nine-thousands (for me) is written twice to stdout. This is the PID.
14:00:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But to the logfile, "0\n" is ALWAYS written.
14:00:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: My if (!i) code path IS being executed; I have changed what it outputs and it outputs those things.
14:01:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: HOW is i different for the writel call -- literally, it becomes a different value -- when all I change is the fd argument, and it works after with fd=1???
14:01:31 <elliott> no, gdb makes me cry, but i might.
14:01:46 <elliott> i know what syscalls it executes
14:01:52 <elliott> the wrong ones :) well, wrong arguments
14:06:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It works when run under gdb. I am not kidding you.
14:06:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It does not when run normally.
14:07:32 <elliott> if ((fd = creat("pid", 0644)) < 0) diewith("creat", errno);
14:07:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It would be fairly hard not to initialise fd there.
14:08:01 <elliott> char s[(sizeof(long)*CHAR_BIT)/3];
14:08:04 <elliott> This is uninitialised, but I do
14:08:07 <elliott> return write(fd, t, sizeof(s) - (t-s));
14:08:16 <elliott> and I've initialised t to t+(that length)-1
14:09:29 <elliott> Just checked writel; yes, even outside of gdb, it gets the right argument.
14:09:32 <elliott> It just does the wrong thing with it.
14:10:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You won't believe this, but it was a mistake I had with fork().
14:10:44 <elliott> if (!(pid = fork())) run();
14:10:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: See the issue here? *My run() finishes*.
14:11:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So since fork() returns 0 for the subprocess, since that's how it signals that, pid = 0 for that and the subprocess just happens to write to pid quicker...
14:14:57 <elliott> if ((fd = open("/dev/null", O_WRONLY)) < 0) diewith("open", errno);
14:14:58 <elliott> if (dup2(fd, 1) < 0) diewith("dup2", errno);
14:14:58 <elliott> if (dup2(fd, 2) < 0) diewith("dup2", errno);
14:15:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: C -- because >/dev/null 2>&1 should take three lines of code!
14:24:31 <elliott> pikhq: I would like to express an opinion.
14:24:46 <elliott> pikhq: WHY DOESN'T THE STANDARD UNIX API HAVE AN EASY WAY TO DETECT WHEN A FILE'S PERMISSIONS CHANGE
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14:30:33 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, find the permissions and see if they've changed?
14:30:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In a tight loop?
14:30:43 -!- Velmont has left (?).
14:35:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So -- "poll every N seconds".
14:35:16 <elliott> I will just defer to Vorpal here because his hate of this is one thing he's actually right about.
14:38:22 <elliott> gamin better have a nice api
14:39:01 <elliott> http://swoolley.org/man.cgi/3/fam ha ha ha
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14:39:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: a file monitoring implementation
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14:41:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uhh, if I monitor the file I can get a notification when its permissions change...
14:43:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Write svmg, like all the previous times :P
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14:54:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Manage services.
14:56:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: AKA "Let's see how much we can directly reimplement daemontools and runit with hopeless naïvety and not be a total ripoff".
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15:16:09 <elliott> "Users, especially administrators, who are associated, or suspected of association, with sites which are hypercritical of Wikipedia can expect their Wikipedia activities as well as their activities on the hypercritical website, to be closely monitored."
15:19:13 <Gregor> elliott: lawl, where's that from?
15:19:26 <elliott> Gregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/MONGO#Karma
15:19:34 <elliott> Gregor: Amusingly not a single one of those motions got a single negative vote
15:19:48 <elliott> Gregor: DEMOCRACY OF THE SMALL HIVEMIND!
15:20:44 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EncyclopediaDramatica.png I wonder how many days it took to wait for the ED front page to be SFW enough to include
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15:32:57 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbFz--GCkOM In which a Winnie the Pooh film is made that, contrary to all expectations anyone may have had, is not 3D. Or ugly.
15:34:02 <Gregor> Does it have that bitch instead of Christopher Robin? :P
15:36:12 <elliott> Gregor: "this new movie is an adaption of five A. A. Milne Pooh stories which Disney hasn't used before" --reddit
15:36:17 <elliott> Gregor: It actually looks really good :P
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15:56:38 <oklopol> so i heard there are now brain reading hats you can buy
15:56:48 <oklopol> could someone link me to one
15:58:47 <elliott> oklopol: well there are mind-control interfaces for computers. they sort of work
15:59:16 <elliott> oklopol: you could do this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrainGate!
15:59:38 <elliott> oklopol: mind-control gaymin interface: http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/ocz_peripherals/nia
15:59:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I went to a university with one of them. It didn't work too well, although I don't think the system was that sophisticated.
16:00:09 <Gregor> elliott: Looks comfortable and stylish.
16:00:22 <elliott> Gregor: BrainGate or nia? :P
16:01:15 <Phantom_Hoover> The one I saw worked by monitoring your occipital lobe.
16:01:16 <oklopol> i don't care what it looks or how much it costs, as long as i can write binary without moving
16:01:38 <Gregor> elliott: Also, I think you typo'd "gay men" in the link to nia.
16:01:56 <Gregor> As it is clearly a gay men interface. ... the best kind of interface? :P
16:02:00 <Phantom_Hoover> You looked at a blinking light, and it did a Fourier transform on the brainwaves and checked for a frequency component.
16:02:23 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: And what if you're blind? Or stupid?
16:02:49 <Phantom_Hoover> If you don't have a signal coming from your occipital lobe, it doesn't work.
16:03:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I say "your" inaccurately. It wouldn't have been possible to clear using it on me with an ethics board, apparently.
16:03:56 <elliott> Gregor: I was going for "gaymen" without being completely opaque :P
16:04:04 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/ocz_peripherals/nia
16:04:13 <elliott> oklopol: it even comes with windows-based configuration
16:04:31 <oklopol> i hope it's easy to get the data out of that
16:04:35 <elliott> oklopol: "By translating facial expressions, eye movements and concentrated brainwave activity into PC game keyboard and mouse controls, nia opens new." so just make sure it only listens to the brainwaves
16:04:39 <elliott> oklopol: sure, it presses keys
16:04:43 <elliott> so just read a key at a time
16:04:50 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, you could write binary in the visual one easily enough.
16:04:56 <elliott> oklopol: hopefully you can disable the facial expressions/eye movements stuff, although gotta say, this'll be very few bits per second :P
16:04:59 <elliott> oklopol: or... a few seconds per bit
16:05:25 <Phantom_Hoover> And you could probably expand it to pairs of bits, if not triplets.
16:05:41 <oklopol> elliott: few seconds per bit for you maybe.
16:06:03 <oklopol> anyway all i want to do is get binary output and train myself fast at it
16:06:06 <elliott> oklopol: good luck :P apparently people have managed to play games with it, although it is a bit unpredictable
16:06:16 <elliott> oklopol: and i imagine they had it looking at facial expressions / eye movements too
16:06:26 <elliott> dunno if you can disable that. hopefully :P
16:06:52 <oklopol> hopefully you will actually get the data it reads out unprocessed
16:06:54 <elliott> Gregor: i forget, do string buffers go first or last in C
16:07:02 <elliott> like if you're converting foo to string, string is first or last
16:07:40 <Gregor> I have no idea what you mean by what you just said :P
16:07:51 <elliott> char *footostr(foo x, char *buf);
16:07:54 <elliott> char *footostr(char *buf, foo x);
16:07:57 <elliott> Gregor: i forget which is the done thing
16:08:07 <Gregor> The "to" is always first usually.
16:08:54 <elliott> char *t = s + DECIMALOF(long) - 1;
16:08:58 <elliott> #define DECIMALOF(t) ((sizeof(t)*8)/3)
16:09:02 <elliott> Gregor: i sorta totally blame you for this :)
16:09:48 <elliott> EISDIR An ELF interpreter was a directory.
16:10:00 <elliott> ENOENT The file filename or a script or ELF interpreter does not exist,
16:10:01 <elliott> or a shared library needed for file or interpreter cannot be
16:10:19 <elliott> Oh well, what kind of shithead uses shared libraries, anyway.
16:14:04 <oklopol> yeah that thing's too hard to buy, i wish there was a page where i could just pour 10 times the money a thing costs and they'd just send it to me
16:14:20 <oklopol> i don't want to look at fucking retarded webpages
16:15:10 <oklopol> preferably not a page, more like a shop, so i could walk instead of browsing
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16:17:25 <elliott> oklopol: it's called a shop
16:17:45 <elliott> oklopol: amazon ships to you guys right?
16:19:03 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.amazon.com/OCZ-OCZMSNIA-NIA-Impulse-Actuator/dp/B00168VU4U
16:20:27 <oklopol> oh that thing's on amazon, i searched with a few stupid queries and all i got was books
16:21:40 <elliott> oklopol: i don't know if you can disable the eye movement stuff and the like so uh
16:21:43 <elliott> close your eyes and be very still
16:21:56 <elliott> (use headphones to listen to the output, just record yourself saying "zero" and "one" and have your program play them)
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16:23:54 <Sgeo> Dear Hulu/Syfy (I don't know who to swear at): You said I'd be able to watch episodes 30 days after airing. Did you just flat out forget?
16:24:16 <oklopol> well i'll buy it just in case it is cool.
16:24:23 <elliott> oklopol: can i have some money
16:24:27 <elliott> since you don't care about it
16:24:32 <elliott> oklopol: in return i'll be awesome??
16:24:35 <elliott> oklopol: BUT WHAT IF I'M AWESOME
16:24:41 <elliott> oklopol: not yet i don't :P
16:24:54 <oklopol> no i mean because of clicking
16:24:59 <elliott> oklopol: that was *not* 50
16:25:25 <elliott> oklopol: i'll accept £25 instead of £50 since that's my debt
16:25:32 <elliott> also since you're probably really poor
16:25:57 <oklopol> it's probably easier for both our accounting if i pay 50 and you pay me the 25 later
16:27:19 <oklopol> then maybe i can buy a wheelchair and make it move and talk when i think
16:28:40 <elliott> <oklopol> it's probably easier for both our accounting if i pay 50 and you pay me the 25 later
16:28:44 <elliott> what kind of accounting is *that*
16:29:00 <elliott> oklopol: anyway still two years - 3 months before you have to pay
16:33:18 <elliott> oklopol: or we could just write off both of our debts, which is profitable to you (assuming you lose it which... you will)
16:34:19 <oklopol> okay i ordered the thingie
16:34:30 <oklopol> probably it'll suck ass but i'm optimistic.
16:42:31 <elliott> oklopol: that's what she asid
16:42:37 <oklopol> maybe i ordered their last piece because the page doesn't have the product anymore...
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16:51:13 * Zuu gives elliott a 'do it yourself'-kit consisting of a hammer and a chisel :D
16:54:36 <elliott> Zuu: but see i get my error from execl which is in the FORKED process
16:54:43 <Zuu> It's funny how conplex stuff has become... there was a time where everything could be fixed with a hammer and a chisel
16:54:45 <elliott> but i need the error in the parent, see
16:54:49 <elliott> so how can i DO that?!?1/1
16:55:48 <Zuu> the entire set of solutions is classified as some kind of ipc, so if you dont want that there is no other solution :)
16:56:15 <elliott> Zuu: i could do a call that lets me see the error from the parent instead
16:56:20 <elliott> even though that call is execl
16:56:27 <elliott> and if it succeeds, well, there goes my process
17:09:36 <Sgeo> So reddit's "popular choices" on the submission page is pretty much a list of subscribed-to reddits
17:09:48 <Sgeo> I don't think NoPDubClub is that popular
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17:26:40 <elliott> " On typical PC servers a reboot is
17:26:40 <elliott> quite lengthy: the BIOS takes two minutes, the kernel takes 20 seconds, and
17:26:40 <elliott> the boot scripts take 30-90 seconds."
17:26:45 * elliott wonders what kind of bios takes that long
17:29:52 <elliott> admittedly this is from 2004, but still
17:30:29 <Vorpal> elliott, do you happen to know if python lists are arrays or cons-style lists?
17:30:42 <Vorpal> elliott, how do you get linked lists in python then?
17:30:52 <olsner> someone had made a modified linux thingy with a power-on to init delay of less than 1s
17:31:05 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a word for those lumpy bits on sci-fi spaceships.
17:31:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, nodules?
17:31:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what lumpy bits?
17:31:56 <elliott> Vorpal: a question of my own: what's the simplest, dirt cheap way on unix/linux to make a call that will block until a file's permissions change? It is okay if it returns sometimes when that doesn't happen, too (I'm just trying to not poll every second).
17:32:03 <elliott> Vorpal: I would rather avoid fam and the like.
17:32:08 <Phantom_Hoover> The article has a picture of a greebled cube which should make it clear.
17:32:51 <Vorpal> elliott, uh... Not sure. But it might be worth checking if epoll or inotify can do that
17:32:58 <Vorpal> elliott, inotify probably can
17:33:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Anything more portable? :P
17:33:44 <elliott> I wish you could just select() on a filesystem entry or something.
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17:33:57 <Vorpal> elliott, perhaps kqueue on *bsd
17:34:06 <Vorpal> but no, nothing portable I think
17:34:16 <elliott> Vorpal: so gamin then. bleh
17:34:21 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm just going to poll every few seconds :)
17:34:23 <Vorpal> elliott, you could use some wrapper library such as gamin yes
17:34:33 <Phantom_Hoover> http://web.archive.org/web/20060214091217/http://battletech-movie.com/html/tutorials/comments_about_greebling.php is a long article about greebles.
17:34:33 <elliott> at least it's not doing anything intensive
17:34:38 <Vorpal> elliott, but that would hopefully just map to inotify on linux
17:34:42 <elliott> ("fork, execl, failed for this specific reason? wait another few seconds")
17:34:58 <elliott> hmm or i could do it inside svmg(8)
17:34:59 <Vorpal> elliott, ouch my battery :P
17:35:14 <elliott> Vorpal: patches that don't use gamin welcome :)
17:35:23 <Vorpal> elliott, oh gamin is fine
17:35:27 <elliott> Vorpal: (looked at the fam api, pretty big added complexity considering how tiny my program is right now)
17:35:34 <elliott> Vorpal: (it doesn't even use stdio)
17:35:39 <Vorpal> elliott, so inotify then
17:35:47 <elliott> Vorpal: but i hate linux-centrism :)
17:36:09 <Vorpal> elliott, what about this then: detect-poll.c detect-inotify.c
17:36:15 <Vorpal> then select the best one at compile time
17:36:21 <Vorpal> and you could easily add other ones
17:36:31 <elliott> Vorpal: otoh, i prefer linux-centrism to *that* :)
17:36:52 <elliott> Vorpal: added complexity of {shitty impl + good impl}
17:36:55 <elliott> where nobody really wants the first
17:37:08 <Vorpal> elliott, because polling would ruin it for laptops
17:37:39 <Vorpal> IN_ATTRIB Metadata changed, e.g., permissions, timestamps, extended attributes, link count (since Linux 2.6.25), UID, GID, etc. (*).
17:37:45 <Vorpal> elliott, seems almost exactly like what you want
17:37:48 <elliott> maybe i could do it in an ENTIRELY NEW WAY :)
17:37:52 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, i'll look into it
17:38:03 <Vorpal> elliott, inotify is scheduled to be replaced btw
17:38:44 <Vorpal> elliott, there is a new one that unifies dnotify and inotify. fsnotify. Currently it is not exposed to user space, but in 2.6.36 inotify and dnotify are implemented in terms of it
17:39:12 <elliott> Vorpal: i can barely. contain. my excitement.
17:39:14 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc they couldn't agree on an user space API before 2.6.36 release
17:39:24 <Vorpal> so that is why it is currently kernel only
17:39:52 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe i'll just use SYSV IPC!!11
17:40:07 <Vorpal> elliott, what is this?
17:40:22 <Vorpal> but I meant more specifically
17:40:38 <Vorpal> elliott, surely you aren't using this to calculate the dependency graph for example
17:40:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, SIG = signal SEG = segmentation V = vfault?
17:40:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, good question
17:41:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, joke :P
17:41:08 <elliott> Vorpal: no, in this case it's waiting for ./run to become +x
17:41:11 <Vorpal> elliott, right ras rususal
17:41:16 <elliott> Vorpal: because +x = "run this service" -x = "don't"
17:41:26 <elliott> Vorpal: would have the same problem if it was presence of "down" file or not to represent that
17:41:31 <elliott> so not a permission-specific problem
17:41:31 <Vorpal> elliott, right. That was an useful answer :P
17:42:08 <Vorpal> elliott, though if you think of a way to use this for dependency calculation you win the price of being (mostly) on topic :P
17:42:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh, of course
17:42:47 <elliott> Vorpal: The price of being on topic. It is incalculable.
17:43:06 <Vorpal> elliott, modulo typos :P
17:43:13 <Vorpal> elliott, it's the same word in Swedish
17:43:29 <elliott> "Here's your price." "But I don't HAVE a million dollars to pay you." "We're giving YOU the million dollars!"
17:43:35 <Vorpal> elliott, pris for both
17:43:40 <elliott> "Here's your price." "I'm up for SALE?"
17:44:25 <Vorpal> elliott, the first one doesn't work. "Här är ditt pris" is unambig. for "here is your price"
17:44:34 <Vorpal> it isn't really ambig. in English either
17:45:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well, no one would interpret it that way. You might have heard of it. Context.
17:45:17 * Sgeo remembers that movie
17:45:30 <elliott> Sgeo has finally lost all semblance of rational thought, appends 1 to arbitrary things, speaks out of context, and is driven only by nostalgia.
17:45:42 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, the first one doesn't work. "Här är ditt pris" is unambig. for "here is your price" <-- s/price/prise/
17:45:47 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm watching the Nostalgia Critic
17:45:54 <Vorpal> elliott, your language is confusing
17:46:07 <Vorpal> elliott, you use fewer/less but more/more
17:46:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Actually fewer is dying out a bit...
17:46:17 <elliott> Vorpal: "10 items or less"
17:46:24 <elliott> Vorpal: "Less than three people"
17:46:33 <Vorpal> elliott, and inflammable means "likely to catch fire" unlike what the in- prefix normally means.
17:46:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably for the better although the prescriptivists of course whine about it to hell and back.
17:46:43 <elliott> Inflammable has a justification. I think.
17:46:52 <elliott> Vorpal: [[The word “inflammable” came from Latin “'inflammāre” = “to set fire to,” where the prefix “'in-”' means “in” as in “inside”, rather than “not” as in “invisible” and “ineligible”. Nonetheless, “inflammable” is often erroneously thought to mean “non-flammable”. To avoid this safety hazard, “flammable”, despite not being the proper Latin-derived t
17:46:52 <elliott> erm, is now commonly used on warning labels when referring to physical combustibility.[1]]
17:47:02 <Vorpal> elliott, inaudible should mean "very loud" then :P
17:47:12 <elliott> Vorpal: "to set audible to"?
17:47:21 <elliott> [[From Latin as if *inflammabilis < inflammare (“to set on fire”) < in (“in, on”) + flamma (“flame”).]]
17:48:09 <Vorpal> elliott, actually inflammable doesn't mean "to set fire to" today. It means "burns easily".
17:48:48 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal: [[The word “inflammable” came from Latin “'inflammāre” = “to set fire to,” where the prefix “'in-”' means “in” as in “inside”, rather than “not” as in “invisible” and “ineligible”. Nonetheless, “inflammable” is often erroneously thought to mean “non-flammable”. To avoid this safety hazard, “flammable”, despite not being the proper Latin
17:48:48 <elliott> <elliott> erm, is now commonly used on warning labels when referring to physical combustibility.[1]]
17:48:53 <elliott> it has always meant burns easily
17:49:26 <elliott> inflammāre = inflammABLE, as in able to be inflammāre'd, as in able to be set fire to
17:49:52 <Vorpal> elliott, so you mean inaudibleable would be the right form?
17:50:23 <Vorpal> elliott, (I was joking)
17:50:50 <Vorpal> olsner, that would mean quiet according to that logic :P
17:52:13 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, I looked at inotify API. What is so bad about it? It is somewhat large due to supporting waiting for many different features. But given it's feature set it seems quite sane
17:52:45 <Vorpal> perhaps writing to the fd would have been a better way to tell it about stuff you wanted though
17:52:59 <elliott> Vorpal: I would have settled for blockuntilchanged("run"); :P
17:53:12 <elliott> Or even blockuntilchanged("run", BUC_PERM);
17:53:20 <Vorpal> elliott, well tricky for many files at once
17:53:34 <elliott> Vorpal: fork() and call blockuntilchanged() a lot
17:54:12 <elliott> Vorpal: well, hey, this is basically why svrun(8) exists
17:54:17 <elliott> Vorpal: because waitpid only takes one pid :)
17:54:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe upstart uses inotify btw. Also using gamin is probably a bad idea for a service supervisor. What if someone installs fam instead and then makes that start with the supervisor? ;P
17:54:52 <Vorpal> elliott, err, init *needs* to wait()
17:55:08 <Vorpal> elliott, otherwise you will gets lots of processes with status Z.
17:55:14 <elliott> Vorpal: well, yes. but i mean -
17:55:19 <elliott> it doesn't wait() to manage its services
17:55:24 <elliott> svrun(8) does that, one per service
17:55:32 <elliott> i am becoming less and less convinced of this design thanks to you, but
17:55:35 <elliott> it's more modular! totally! :P
17:55:50 <Vorpal> The wait() system call suspends execution of the calling process until one of its children terminates. The call wait(&status) is equivalent to:
17:55:50 <Vorpal> waitpid(-1, &status, 0);
17:55:57 <Vorpal> elliott, so you could use waitpid :P
17:56:20 <elliott> Vorpal: can i just say that setsid() and friends are the craziest thing ever?
17:57:39 <Vorpal> elliott, is that for process group?
17:57:59 <elliott> Vorpal: which are just... ugh
17:58:10 <Vorpal> I actually don't know what process groups are for, except that shell job control uses it
18:00:18 <elliott> Vorpal: to do with wait() and things, I *think*
18:00:33 <Vorpal> elliott, init needs to wait for any process though
18:00:58 <Vorpal> elliott, so I don't think init needs to care about it as such.
18:01:02 <elliott> Vorpal: In POSIX-conformant operating systems, a process group denotes a collection of one or more processes. Process groups are used to control the distribution of signals. A signal directed to a process group is delivered individually to all of the processes that are members of the group.
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18:01:16 <elliott> "Blah blah blah special case crap crap."
18:01:44 <Vorpal> elliott, well. who knows. It isn't something init needs to deal with I think.
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18:01:58 <elliott> Vorpal: although shutdown does
18:02:07 <elliott> Vorpal: it has to become process leader
18:02:12 <elliott> at least, well, some of them
18:02:17 <elliott> i've seen one shutdown that does it :D
18:02:21 <elliott> Vorpal: because otherwise it'd kill its parent
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18:02:46 <Vorpal> elliott, idea: check if existing init, shutdown and so on uses it, if no: ignore it. if yes: check to see what it does, and if it seems reasonable, do the same.
18:02:54 <Vorpal> elliott, for shutdown it seems reasonable for example
18:03:13 <elliott> Vorpal: well it's different with a service manager
18:03:16 <elliott> you can't just kill everything blindly
18:03:22 <elliott> so you have to kill stuff in the right order
18:03:40 <Vorpal> elliott, shouldn't shutdown simply tell the supervisor to do an ordered shutdown?
18:03:58 <elliott> Vorpal: no reason why the service manager should have anything to do with system halting
18:04:25 <elliott> Vorpal: shutdown is many things: "stop all services, sync, make filesystems read-only, kill all processes, tell the kernel to reboot"
18:04:25 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it needs to bring stuff down in an ordered fashion. chmod -x would be a bad idea because that would mess up the next boot
18:04:32 <elliott> Vorpal: the only one that has anything to do with the service manager is the first one
18:04:34 <Vorpal> so you need some other way to stop it respawning
18:04:41 <elliott> Vorpal: well, yes, so you kill svmg
18:04:44 <elliott> which kills all the svruns
18:04:53 <Vorpal> elliott, if it runs as pid 1 you get into problems :P
18:04:54 <elliott> which kills all the services
18:04:59 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, indeed - i thought of this
18:05:02 <elliott> Vorpal: I think I'm planning to do:
18:05:11 <Vorpal> elliott, separate init and supervisor?
18:05:17 <elliott> if (getpid() == 1) { if (fork()) hang_forever(); }
18:05:19 <elliott> Vorpal: no, just that in svmg
18:05:29 <elliott> sure you could make init a simple program that just forks and execs the service manager
18:05:38 <Vorpal> elliott, well init still must wait()
18:05:52 <elliott> Vorpal: well true. shut up i haven't figured out what to do yet :D
18:05:56 <elliott> Vorpal: this is rapidly turning into daemontools :)
18:06:01 <Vorpal> elliott, hang_forever() could be a wait() loop
18:06:26 <elliott> or runit, the sv(8) interface is basically identical to runit's...
18:06:32 <Vorpal> elliott, and well, if that wait detects that the fork has exited: "whops"
18:07:01 <elliott> Vorpal: the service management interface
18:07:09 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean that you do stuff like chmod -x ?
18:07:24 <elliott> # sv r tty1 (d then u (up))
18:07:31 <elliott> Vorpal: well it's just a frontend :
18:07:41 <Vorpal> elliott, what? A command wrapping a file system operation‽‽‽ How systemV-ish!
18:07:47 <elliott> Vorpal: sv d foo = chmod -x /sv/foo/run && kill $(cat /sv/foo/pid)
18:07:56 <elliott> Vorpal: well no, it does more than the plain fs operations! see above line :P
18:08:45 <Vorpal> elliott, presumably so does the the queue thingy. Like locking to prevent two users queueing something to print at the same time messing up stuff
18:09:05 <elliott> at least with mine it's easy to do manually
18:09:27 <Vorpal> elliott, well, if it isn't then it isn't just a file system command :P
18:10:54 <elliott> Vorpal: 3 seconds away from "fuck it i'm making init a shell script"
18:15:56 <elliott> Vorpal: blame gregor: #define DECIMALOF(t) ((sizeof(t)*8)/3)
18:17:33 <Vorpal> elliott, a shell script?
18:18:09 <elliott> Vorpal: char s[DECIMALOF(long)]; -- now s can hold the decimal representation of any long
18:18:11 <elliott> well, in this case unsigned long
18:18:16 <Vorpal> elliott, /sbin/init: ignore SIGKILL, spawn service manager, go into wait loop.
18:18:17 <elliott> Vorpal: including terminating 0
18:18:20 <Vorpal> that is about all for pid 1
18:18:22 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, /sbin/init: ignore SIGKILL, spawn service manager, go into wait loop.
18:18:36 <elliott> /sbin/init: start service programs, ignore SIGKILL, go into wait loop
18:18:41 <Vorpal> elliott, yes pid 1 can ignore sigkill
18:18:50 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal: including terminating 0
18:19:16 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: char s[DECIMALOF(long)]; -- now s can hold the decimal representation of any long <-- ah cool
18:19:27 <elliott> Vorpal: tl;dr ((sizeof(t)*8)/3) is log_10(2^(t*8)) + 1 + a bit
18:19:32 <Vorpal> it should use CHAR_BITS
18:19:34 <elliott> where a bit increases every time
18:19:38 <elliott> it did in the previous one
18:19:56 <elliott> Vorpal: now tell me why pid_t is signed
18:20:02 <Vorpal> elliott, every time I use CHAR_BIT I first get a compile time error because CHAR_BITS is undefied :P
18:20:06 <elliott> (it is *required* to be signed)
18:20:42 <Vorpal> elliott, well how else would you be able to use negative values to mean special things :P
18:20:47 <Vorpal> (note: not saying this is a good idea)
18:20:53 <Vorpal> (but it is what is done iirc)
18:21:03 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah e.g. waitpid(-1, ...)
18:21:08 <elliott> Vorpal: why not do it like getchar
18:21:14 <Vorpal> elliott, and -1 from fork to mean "couldn't fork" iirc
18:21:23 <elliott> could be smaller than PID_T_MAX
18:21:34 <elliott> what is it with c's obsession of using special values
18:21:40 <elliott> what's wrong with multiple functions
18:21:56 <Vorpal> elliott, getchar returns a signed int though
18:22:14 <elliott> Vorpal: but a signed int can definitely store a char in its positive values
18:22:15 <Vorpal> elliott, in fact char is signed on my systems at least.
18:22:18 <elliott> i love how char can be signed
18:22:30 <Vorpal> <elliott> i love how char can be signed <elliott> ugh <elliott> fuck unix
18:22:37 <Vorpal> changed your mind in the middle?
18:22:47 <Vorpal> or just sarcastic to begin with?
18:23:13 <elliott> Vorpal: you can tell these posix people were all -- oh, let's be accepting, who knows what exciting futuristic systems will appear using this leeway?
18:23:20 <Vorpal> elliott, actually char being signed is the most consistent option. Since int and long are signed
18:23:20 <elliott> Vorpal: and then they go and restrain it in far less trivial matters
18:23:23 <elliott> thus making the whole thing moot
18:23:29 <elliott> because they're idiots, see.
18:23:40 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, actually char being signed is the most consistent option. Since int and long are signed
18:23:48 <elliott> ok but have uchar be the type of char IO stuff
18:23:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I agree on that
18:24:08 <Vorpal> elliott, typedef unsigned char uchar; I guess
18:24:20 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah. and while we're at it, can we have iN mean intN_t?
18:24:30 <elliott> uN for uintN_t? just trying to get some more readability in here...
18:24:36 <Vorpal> elliott, typedef is your friend
18:24:46 <Vorpal> elliott, that and stdint.h from C99
18:24:52 <elliott> Vorpal: sure, and it should be the POSIX/C committees' friend too
18:24:55 <olsner> elliott: some do use that convention, yes
18:25:02 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, I meant, have iN instead of intN_t and the like
18:25:10 <elliott> Vorpal: really what we need to do is s/char/byte/
18:25:19 <elliott> biggest mistake of them all it hink
18:25:21 <Vorpal> elliott, well. they couldn't add it outside a header, that would break stuff
18:25:34 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm speaking from a time machine perspective
18:25:37 <elliott> go back in time, fix shit before it happens
18:26:20 <elliott> printf("spawned pid %d\n",p);
18:26:26 * elliott wonders wtf this program is doing in minit
18:26:26 <Vorpal> elliott, erlang gets it right there. Strings have nothing to do with byte arrays. Nor does it with lists as such. You can use a byte array to encode a string of course, But that is quite different from byte arrays being strings
18:26:52 <elliott> Vorpal: the problem with unicode is that it's fucked up to use, not even codepoints = actual characters
18:27:04 <elliott> and with arabic, just give up and shoot yourself
18:27:10 <Vorpal> "foo" is [$f, $o, $o ] (where $f means ascii value of f and so on) <<"foo">> would be a byte array of foo
18:27:14 <elliott> it's more everyone else's fault rather than unicode :)
18:27:35 <Vorpal> elliott, without combining stuff they would get combinatorial explosion
18:27:52 <elliott> Vorpal: some would argue they already have :)
18:28:31 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, for compatibility in a lot of the cases.
18:28:52 <Vorpal> which you need. Otherwise no one will use the thing.
18:29:00 <Vorpal> because it would be too much work.
18:29:22 * elliott forgot to seed tru64, restarts it (ratio = 0.77)
18:29:38 <elliott> Vorpal: found an alpha emulator that works?
18:29:45 <elliott> CHARON-AXP is enterprisey to the max and i couldn't get it going
18:30:26 <elliott> heh, fefe actually replaced /bin/sh in minit because it's slow
18:32:36 <elliott> write something to /proc/1/fd/3 and read answer from /proc/1/fd/4"
18:32:40 <elliott> now that's IPC i can get behind
18:35:05 <olsner> nice, $1000 to $8000 to extend your tru64 license to charon-axp
18:36:25 <elliott> olsner: go find an alpha emulator that works that we can either pirate or get free
18:39:05 <olsner> shouldn't there be a bunch of open-source emulators with alpha support?
18:39:23 <Vorpal> elliott, had no time to check for one
18:39:25 <elliott> olsner: i have not found one yet.
18:39:27 <Vorpal> elliott, been writing a report today
18:39:34 <elliott> olsner: qemu-alpha exists but not qemu-system-alpha
18:40:35 <elliott> olsner: i.e. qemu can run alpha linux binaries
18:40:35 <Vorpal> elliott, the course uses python. But I think the teacher dislikes the language. At one point in a lecture he paused and said "or am I mixing that up with haskell?" about some behaviour (forgot which behaviour)
18:40:38 <elliott> but not emulate an alpha system
18:41:30 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and we have another course using C++, but it is quite apparent that the teacher prefers something else, objc style or such I suspect. But orders from higher up it seems...
18:41:52 <elliott> Vorpal: compile a haskell implementation to python somehow
18:41:59 <olsner> hmm, plus points for referring to haskell, but how the hell can you mix up haskell and python?
18:41:59 <elliott> submit all assignments written in haskell bundled with that
18:42:10 <elliott> olsner: "about some behaviour"
18:42:30 <Vorpal> olsner, I don't know. He was saying something about range() being lazy or some such iirc. And then that comment.
18:42:52 <Vorpal> elliott, no it isn't. Only python 3 on lab computers
18:43:03 * Vorpal waits for elliott to explode
18:43:45 <Vorpal> elliott, most of them run windows so I doubt it.
18:44:31 <Vorpal> elliott, btw, during the first lecture the teacher in the course using python said "I would have preferred LISP but then half the course would have been spent learning it first"
18:45:20 <Vorpal> true, he didn't actually shout it :P
18:45:39 <olsner> so instead you spend half the course learning python? :)
18:46:01 <elliott> olsner: it's so inchewittive
18:46:56 <Vorpal> elliott, also he has the beefiest laptop (though I hesitate to call a 17" that) I have ever seen. It has huge air exhausts on the back. He said something about that he has a course using GPU programming as well though. So that might be why.
18:47:18 <elliott> or he's just a gaming loser :P
18:48:39 <Sgeo> elliott, should I learn Common Lisp?
18:49:08 <Vorpal> elliott, he doesn't look like the type
18:49:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, can you PLEASE make your mind up about SOMETHING just once, ever?
18:49:16 <elliott> Sgeo: how about we try this magical thing where
18:49:21 <elliott> you think about a decision
18:49:28 <elliott> and then decide it paying NO ATTENTION AT ALL to who agrees or not
18:49:33 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, we aren't you're personal thinking assistant.
18:49:36 <elliott> instead using logic and your judgement
18:49:45 <elliott> because opinions don't matter if they're wrong
18:50:03 <Vorpal> elliott, but that laptop looks like the only step up would be a w700ds or whatever the insane lenovo model is called. And even then it would only be a step up in insanity. It would be a step down in air exhaust size
18:51:00 <Vorpal> elliott, you how 12 cell batteries? The air exhaust thingy sticks out about as much behind the monitor. If only I knew the brand...
18:51:07 <Vorpal> acer or asus or some such I think
18:52:58 <Vorpal> <elliott> because opinions don't matter if they're wrong <-- are you saying your opinions *are* wrong?
18:53:43 <elliott> Vorpal: if they're wrong, then yes.
18:53:50 <elliott> they probably aren't though, 'cuz i'm a genius
18:53:52 <Vorpal> elliott, alternatively: <Sgeo> Hm good idea. ... I decided to not make more decisions and start asking everyone again!
18:54:16 <elliott> if Sgeo ever lost his internet connection and was like
18:54:20 <Vorpal> elliott, or alternative alternatively: <Sgeo> Should I make up my own mind?
18:54:36 <elliott> <Sgeo> I decided that based on evidence A, B, and C, that D. Is this correct?
18:55:11 <Vorpal> elliott, would be funny. But just waaay to unrealistic. Too sensible :P
18:56:30 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway that more/more vs. less/fewer thing bothers me in English. Swedish is consistent there. Separate words for both.
18:56:46 <elliott> I don't think I can get a silent computer of the power I want even if I empty my account :P
18:56:56 <elliott> Vorpal: i'd prefer more/more less/less to be honest
18:57:02 <Vorpal> elliott, uh easy solution: kvm extended
18:57:03 <elliott> even if it does sound a bit odd
18:57:16 <elliott> Vorpal: lame, i want to twiddle bits
18:57:22 <Vorpal> elliott, so you put it in the next room. Unless you have paper walls...
18:57:56 <Vorpal> elliott, well, reset button shouldn't be required. And isn't very often. When it is you could get up and walk 10 steps :P
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18:57:58 <elliott> "next room" is the landing
18:58:06 <elliott> i can't really think of anywhere it would go without HUEG CABLE
18:58:09 <Vorpal> elliott, btw did you see tru64 to 1.0 ratio or better?
18:58:16 <elliott> Vorpal: bah! that would ruin my figure
18:58:28 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
18:58:29 <Vorpal> elliott, ah good. I seeded to 1.50
18:58:30 <elliott> forgot to put it on this morning, restarted it a while ago like i said
18:58:38 <Vorpal> elliott, hm missed that you said that
18:59:12 <elliott> hmm, regular desktop/gamer ram isn't ECC is it?
18:59:15 <elliott> I'll have to buy server RAM
18:59:35 <Vorpal> elliott, regular desktop mobos often don't make good use of ECC according to djb
18:59:51 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, i've seen. but not from the reliable manufacturers, i don't think
18:59:53 <Vorpal> elliott, as in they detect it and run with it.
18:59:59 <elliott> Vorpal: e.g. I'd expect an ASUS board that claims to support ECC to work fine
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19:00:10 <Vorpal> elliott, you probably don't want a server mobo though
19:00:11 <elliott> Vorpal: he was more singling out a few manufacturers i'd never heard of, probably cheapy sorta stuff
19:00:15 <elliott> Vorpal: also that page is quite old
19:00:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I know someone who bought a server mobo. Performance was awesome but sound level of the fans required? uh...
19:01:08 <elliott> Vorpal: and the BIOS takes 2 minutes!</reference>
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19:01:16 <Vorpal> elliott, yes they often do
19:01:21 <Vorpal> elliott, but what is the reference?
19:01:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I seen that behaviour myself
19:01:43 <Vorpal> so it seems more like a fact rather than a reference
19:02:10 <elliott> 09:26:40 <elliott> " On typical PC servers a reboot is
19:02:11 <elliott> 09:26:40 <elliott> quite lengthy: the BIOS takes two minutes, the kernel takes 20 seconds, and
19:02:11 <elliott> 09:26:40 <elliott> the boot scripts take 30-90 seconds."
19:02:11 <elliott> 09:26:45 * elliott wonders what kind of bios takes that long
19:02:11 <elliott> 09:29:25 <olsner> a server bios? :)
19:02:11 <elliott> 09:29:33 <elliott> olsner: still! :)
19:02:13 <elliott> 09:29:52 <elliott> admittedly this is from 2004, but still
19:02:15 <elliott> 09:30:16 <Vorpal> elliott, hi.
19:02:38 <Vorpal> elliott, I even saw one that displayed system information and then did a 30 second count down waiting for you to press keys to enter bios setup before continuing boot!
19:02:54 <Vorpal> elliott, couldn't be turned off
19:03:18 <elliott> yup seems Desktop Memory newegg category has no ecc
19:03:31 <Vorpal> elliott, but IPMI or whatever it is called is nice
19:03:38 <elliott> "But dude, server RAM is *slow*!"
19:03:40 <Vorpal> elliott, you actually get *names* for the sensors
19:03:51 <elliott> i love how you can get fast ram. just hilarious
19:04:00 <Vorpal> rather than temp1, temp2, temp3, fan1, fan2, fan3
19:04:40 <Vorpal> elliott, because the names are provided by the board.
19:05:04 <Vorpal> elliott, why would server ram be slow?
19:05:07 <elliott> Vorpal: i would buy a motherboard called smörgåsbord
19:05:16 <elliott> Vorpal: it isn't, it's just that desktop ram (can be) "fast"
19:05:18 <elliott> CAS latency, timings, blah blah blah
19:05:43 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I should manufacture one then price it very high
19:05:48 <Vorpal> because it was one of a kind :P
19:06:04 <Vorpal> still, should give me a nice profit since you did a blanket statement there
19:06:29 <elliott> cheapest amd processor: " AMD Sempron 140 Sargas 2.7GHz Socket AM3 45W Single-Core Processor SDX140HBGQBOX
19:06:47 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder how much cache non-semprons have then
19:06:56 <Vorpal> elliott, considering that is a lot more than my old sempron has
19:07:08 <Vorpal> less than the core2 duo in my laptop
19:07:12 <elliott> Vorpal: not as much per core actually for the phenoms!
19:07:14 <elliott> Vorpal: but then they have l3 cache
19:08:02 <Vorpal> elliott, even that old p3 I have has twice as much cache
19:08:06 <elliott> someone oughta go into business selling processors that aren't intel and don't suck
19:08:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well, sempron is their cheap line
19:08:37 <Vorpal> elliott, a phenom would suck less
19:08:52 <elliott> Vorpal: oh, i meant in general
19:08:58 <elliott> phenoms suck because they're really hot and power-consuming
19:09:12 <elliott> well so are the lower end ones
19:09:17 <elliott> but the phenoms even moreso
19:09:24 <Vorpal> elliott, so get a supermegaultraextraspecialplus
19:09:51 <Vorpal> I can't think of more words like that to add
19:10:03 <elliott> Vorpal: supermegaultraextraspecialplus *what*?
19:10:21 <Vorpal> elliott, joking about silly name for the megahalem replacement
19:10:44 <elliott> Vorpal: the problem is airflow, even if you have the biggest heatsinks ever, if they're too close and no air is blowing...
19:10:46 <elliott> this is why you use heatpipes
19:11:31 <Vorpal> elliott, or hm... hook it up the the AC of the building? If it has that
19:11:55 <elliott> Vorpal: this is britain, why would we need *cooling down*? :)
19:11:58 <Vorpal> I'm sure this is a terrible idea, but I can't think of why
19:12:21 <Vorpal> elliott, here we could just put a heatsink on the roof for all but 3 months of the year
19:12:43 <Vorpal> of course, you could do it all year around. Doesn't it rain over there almost always?
19:12:55 <elliott> Vorpal: absolutely, in fact we're permanently wet
19:13:00 <elliott> usually we just drench our carpets so we feel like we fit in
19:13:16 <Vorpal> hm, actually snow is a good insulator iirc. So the roof thing wouldn't work very well
19:13:16 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway no reason you can't just put the heatsink on the roof in the summer time
19:13:27 <elliott> it's away from the components, that's what's important
19:13:28 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed not in the summer
19:13:29 <elliott> doesn't matter how hot it is
19:13:46 <elliott> Vorpal: i mean, as long as you're not totally overtaxing it
19:13:53 <elliott> but if you get a big enough radiator, it shouldn't be an issue
19:13:55 <Vorpal> elliott, wouldn't it be too hot. You know. What would make the heat travel?
19:14:04 <Vorpal> elliott, the temperature difference
19:14:16 <Vorpal> and if the "cool" end isn't very cool...
19:14:24 <Vorpal> it couldn't work very well
19:15:26 <Vorpal> elliott, say it is 30 C outside in the shadow (this happens for about 1 week in late July or early August in Sweden most summers). Then if it is on the roof and the sun is shining directly on it, it will be considerably hotter.
19:15:44 <Vorpal> which means cooling wouldn't really work
19:16:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm thinking heatpipes and passive heatsink here
19:16:25 <Vorpal> during the winter it would work very well probably
19:17:22 <elliott> Vorpal: well ok it does need to cool
19:17:27 <elliott> 30 C is probably not workable
19:17:41 <elliott> Vorpal: but if you have a heatsink on the roof why not just put a gigantic fan on it...
19:18:32 <Vorpal> elliott, because I'm on the upper floor and it would be just 2-3 meters away
19:18:49 <elliott> Vorpal: have it go at like 2rpm :P
19:19:11 <Vorpal> elliott, wouldn't do anything much then would it?
19:19:51 <elliott> Vorpal: could just watercool
19:19:54 <elliott> Vorpal: put the pump on the roof
19:20:01 <elliott> Vorpal: i doubt any pump could be loud enough to hear from 2-3 meters away
19:20:49 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway with the 45 degree slope on this roof it would be tricky
19:21:50 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway is water cooling loud or?
19:22:02 <elliott> Vorpal: if you use fans yes. if you don't, no
19:22:20 <elliott> Vorpal: "passively", you have a big radiator, and a pretty quiet pump
19:22:30 <Vorpal> elliott, and no air in the system
19:22:32 <elliott> Vorpal: away from the pump, the only "noise" is coolant passing through the soft circular pipes
19:22:38 <elliott> Vorpal: which i'm sure you'll agree is noiseless :P
19:23:21 <Vorpal> elliott, depends. running the water tap on full certainly isn't silent in the next room
19:23:22 <fizzie> But it's still a moving part.
19:23:31 <elliott> Vorpal: hardly the same situation
19:23:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how would that help actual cooling as such?
19:23:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But it's still etc.
19:24:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it needs the opposite end to be cool
19:24:12 <Vorpal> anyway passive is more fun
19:24:56 <Vorpal> elliott, somehow some core2 duo cpus manage to make a tiny high pitched noise when entering C4
19:25:17 <elliott> Vorpal: capacitor noise and shit.
19:25:25 <elliott> Vorpal: in fact people who silence their computers end up hearing *LCD whine* (not kidding)
19:25:39 <Vorpal> elliott, hah. I heard the cpu noise sometimes on my thinkpad
19:25:45 <elliott> Vorpal: after they solve that, well... some purport to hearing the capacitors, but who can tell between that and tinnitus?
19:26:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I can tell by watching powertop that it is related to wakeups from C4
19:26:37 <Vorpal> and that with thousand of wakeups per second from deeper sleep state it sounds kind of like a CRT
19:27:41 <Vorpal> elliott, also some usb stuff cause it
19:28:00 <fizzie> You could also just deliberately deafen yourself.
19:28:10 <elliott> Tinnitus + deaf. HELL YEAH
19:28:33 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm sure it isn't tunnitus. well known mobile Core 2 Duo issue
19:28:56 <Vorpal> elliott, and limiting deepest cstate with the boot parameter works
19:29:00 <fizzie> Could you theoretically speaking build some sort of concatenated-peltier-elements tube to move heat far enough away?
19:29:20 <olsner> hmm, the Blue Waters supercomputer will total around 9.6TB of on-die L3 cache
19:29:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, possibly but you would need a hell of a lot of cooling at the remote end I think
19:29:49 <Vorpal> olsner, how many CPUs?
19:29:57 <elliott> olsner: now make it persistent!
19:30:04 <olsner> Vorpal: that's 300000 times 32MB
19:30:15 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, you could do Peltier cooling. But... not very practical.
19:30:20 <Vorpal> olsner, 300 000 CPUs!?
19:30:32 <Vorpal> olsner, how many dedicated power plants?
19:30:56 <fizzie> elliott: Were're going solid-state with disks, why not cooling too. Just out of principle, I mean.
19:31:09 <Vorpal> elliott, liquid nitrogen cooling. Don't forget to refill though
19:31:19 <elliott> fizzie: Yes... we're talking about solid-state coolers.
19:31:21 <elliott> fizzie: Copper heatpipes + radiator.
19:31:26 <elliott> fizzie: Far more practical than Peltier.
19:31:35 <elliott> fizzie: And done in practice, too, many times.
19:31:56 <elliott> Can I just say that hyperthreading is genius?
19:32:00 <Vorpal> elliott, peltier has been done in practise. So has liquid nitrogen
19:32:17 <elliott> "Darn, we have all this time when the CPU is just hung waiting for IO." "Uhh... can't we just run other code while that happens?" "...sure, why not."
19:32:25 <Vorpal> <elliott> Can I just say that hyperthreading is genius? <-- except that it doesn't work very well iirc
19:32:47 <elliott> Vorpal: most of the flames against it were from idiots
19:32:54 <Vorpal> elliott, so why wasn't it in core 2 duo?
19:32:58 <elliott> Vorpal: basically if what you're doing is CPU-bound, of course it won't help
19:33:03 <elliott> Vorpal: if what you're doing is IO-bound, it helps immensely
19:33:09 <elliott> since all that time waiting for IO is spent running code
19:33:12 <Vorpal> elliott, memory bound too
19:33:27 <elliott> Vorpal: well, Pentium 4 was single-core
19:33:32 <Vorpal> IO bound: doubt it would help much. It would be up to system calls anyway
19:33:32 <elliott> Hyperthreading is more useful with multiple cores, I'd say
19:33:38 <elliott> since it's mainly helpful for parallel tasks
19:33:46 <elliott> anyway Core 2 had a lot of things and didn't have a lot of other things
19:33:52 <elliott> I don't think hyperthreading worked very well in the Pentium 4
19:33:55 <elliott> like most things about the P4
19:33:57 <Vorpal> elliott, core 2 was damn good though
19:34:15 <elliott> one of the best processor innovations i can remember
19:34:25 <Vorpal> elliott, very good performer. The mario of CPUs. (see tvtropes if you have no idea what I'm talking about)
19:34:43 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, Core 2 is being discontinued this year
19:34:53 <elliott> [[With the launch of 32 nm processors in the upcoming months, Intel has scheduled to discontinue some Atom, Celeron, Pentium, Core 2, and even Core i7 models. The Core 2 Quad Q8200, Q8200S, Q9400, and Q9400S are scheduled to be discontinued in 2010.[9] Intel may also rebadge some Core 2 processors in the E7xxx, E8xxx, Q8xxx, Q9xxx and Wolfdale series as Core i3 processors, together with new Core i3 pro
19:34:55 <elliott> cessors using the 45 nm Nehalem microarchitecture.[10][11]]]
19:34:59 <Vorpal> elliott, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheMario
19:35:02 <elliott> Vorpal: eh. Nehalem is better
19:35:12 <elliott> Vorpal: but stop buying Intel! :)
19:35:44 <elliott> no, instead deal with crappy processors
19:35:44 <Vorpal> elliott, I haven't bought Intel for desktop for years
19:35:48 <elliott> because your illusion of freedom is REAL!
19:35:55 <elliott> (note: illusion of freedom actually illusory.)
19:36:09 <Vorpal> elliott, opencores or something
19:36:36 <elliott> Vorpal: well, Sun opened up those SPARC processors
19:36:37 <elliott> and they're actually useful
19:36:46 <Vorpal> elliott, before oracle I assume?
19:37:22 <elliott> Four fully open source implementations of the SPARC architecture exist.
19:37:24 <elliott> * LEON, a 32-bit, single-thread SPARC Version 8 implementation, designed especially for space use. Source code is written in VHDL, and licensed under the GPL.
19:37:24 <elliott> * RAMP Gold, a 32-bit, 64-thread SPARC Version 8 implementation, designed for FPGA-based architecture simulation. RAMP Gold is written in ~36,000 lines of Systemverilog, and licensed under the BSD licenses.
19:37:24 <elliott> * OpenSPARC T1, released in 2006, a 64-bit, 32-thread implementation conforming to the UltraSPARC Architecture 2005 and to SPARC Version 9 (Level 1). Source code is written in Verilog, and licensed under many licenses. Most OpenSPARC T1 source code is licensed under the GPL. Source based on existent open source projects will continue to be licensed under their current licenses. Binary programs are
19:37:26 <elliott> licensed under a binary software license agreement.
19:37:29 <elliott> o S1, a 64-bit Wishbone compliant CPU core based on the OpenSPARC T1 design. It is a single UltraSPARC v9 core capable of 4 way SMT. Like the T1, the source code is licensed under the GPL.
19:37:31 <elliott> * OpenSPARC T2, released in 2008, a 64-bit, 64-thread implementation conforming to the UltraSPARC Architecture 2007 and to SPARC Version 9 (Level 1). Source code is written in Verilog, and licensed under many licenses. Most OpenSPARC T2 source code is licensed under the GPL. Source based on existent open source projects will continue to be licensed under their current licenses. Binary programs are
19:37:35 <elliott> licensed under a binary Software License Agreement.
19:37:36 <olsner> the interesting parts are probably patented, just in case anyone manages to do something useful with the opencore thing
19:37:37 <elliott> opensparc are the sun ones
19:37:42 <elliott> # UltraSPARC T1 – Sun's first multicore and multithread CPU (code-named "Niagara")
19:37:44 <elliott> # UltraSPARC T2 – The successor to T1
19:37:46 -!- elliott has left (?).
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19:38:07 <Vorpal> elliott, "The [Peltier] effect is used in satellites and spacecraft to counter the effect of direct sunlight on one side of a craft by dissipating the heat over the cold shaded side, whereupon the heat is dissipated by thermal radiation into space."
19:38:27 <fizzie> I'm sure open-source in hardware design will really get going as soon as they make it possible to reify designs with the press of a button. Maybe with some sort of progammable Star Trek replicator.
19:38:57 <olsner> I thought fpga:s already did that?
19:39:10 <Vorpal> elliott, this is quite interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling#Uses
19:39:41 <elliott> Field Programmable Gates Array
19:40:00 <Vorpal> what he said was correct
19:40:10 <elliott> Vorpal: e.g. plural of Surgeon General isn't Surgeon Generals
19:40:11 <Vorpal> and who cares about them
19:40:23 <elliott> A is Array, an adjective (the field programmable gates are array)
19:40:29 <elliott> so it's field programmable gates array
19:40:34 <Vorpal> elliott, he used the Swedish construct to make plural of abbreviations
19:40:47 <Vorpal> it would be FPGA:er in Swedish
19:41:08 <elliott> i like how Vorpal is listening to me
19:41:17 <Vorpal> elliott, no I have a silly filter :P
19:42:09 <elliott> all plurals should be like Surgeons General really
19:42:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about that open thingy to make stuff in plastic
19:42:29 <elliott> (FEAR... #esoteric's member)
19:42:43 <Vorpal> elliott, what is suregons general?
19:43:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Surgeons General is the plural of Surgeon General.
19:43:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: I've forgotten the name also, but it still has some way to go before you can print a processor with it.
19:43:18 <elliott> For instance, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgeon_General_of_the_United_States
19:43:20 <elliott> Vorpal: no, it actually is
19:43:24 <elliott> "Surgeon Generals" is incorrect
19:43:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess it is due to military word order?
19:43:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Surgeon General = the General Surgeon
19:43:43 <fizzie> There was a hand-built "3D printer" at one stand at Altparty, I think.
19:43:43 <Vorpal> elliott, sane word order would be "General Suregons" yeah
19:43:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I KNOW BUT SHUT UP
19:43:59 <elliott> fizzie: They got it to print circuits.
19:44:19 <Vorpal> and what was the name?
19:44:36 <Vorpal> has everyone forgot the name?
19:44:43 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.google.com/search?q=self-replicating+3d+printer
19:44:59 <elliott> Vorpal: "courts martial" too
19:45:13 <Vorpal> elliott, yes you are insane
19:45:21 <Vorpal> not you as in first person
19:45:40 <Vorpal> not you as in second person *singular*
19:46:53 <fizzie> The first-person you, for all you out-of-body travellers.
19:47:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, or time travelers
19:48:07 <elliott> Vorpal: There is no second person plural in English, however in many variant languages -- mainly American -- "y'all" is.
19:48:10 <Vorpal> izzie, or time travellers
19:48:44 <fizzie> Izzie sounds very lizardy.
19:49:00 <Vorpal> I couldn't see what I was typing :P
19:49:15 <Vorpal> so up arrow and then wtf
19:49:40 <Vorpal> elliott, doesn't English have second person plural = second person singular
19:50:09 <elliott> "y'all" is unambiguous but hicky :)
19:52:04 <elliott> Vorpal: hick-esque. of or akin to the manners of a hick
19:52:24 <Vorpal> hm reprap is version 2 now.
19:52:30 <Vorpal> a lot more interesting than the old one indeed
19:54:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: Incidentally, here's the underground tree I mentioned: http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree1.png http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree2.png
19:55:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, very nice. Do you need the torches as well, or would the sunlight be enough?
19:55:48 <fizzie> I think it should be enough for it to grow.
19:55:55 <fizzie> But of course then it'd be pretty dark down there at night-time.
19:56:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, the waterfall doesn't go all the way up?
19:56:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, FS2 no longer crashes my computer.
19:56:34 <fizzie> No, it comes out of the wall at one point.
19:56:41 <fizzie> You can swim up it, of course.
20:01:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: The 3D printer at altparty was in fact a built RepRap, it seems.
20:01:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, version 1 or 2?
20:04:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: It was made by the folks of Helsinki Hacklab, which is this 100-square-metres apartment filled with tools and other such stuff, for people who like to build stuff but don't have suitable spaces in their homes.
20:05:12 <fizzie> It also "almost works".
20:05:51 <fizzie> They had it with them at Assembly, and it didn't work there; at Altparty it I think sort-of maybe worked.
20:05:55 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeSpace_2_Source_Code_Project
20:05:57 <elliott> Platform(s) Linux, Mac OS X, Windows
20:06:21 * Vorpal puts it on queue of cool things to try
20:06:32 <Phantom_Hoover> They're not DRMed or anything, though, so torrenting is trivial
20:06:45 <elliott> fizzie: http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree2.png Not that deep! :P
20:07:12 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, looks like 10 above the bedrock or such?
20:07:22 <fizzie> Something like 10, right.
20:07:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, pretty near the sea level at the top right?
20:07:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, it's actually pretty far up.
20:07:47 <elliott> fizzie: Why not build the tree on bedrock? :P
20:08:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: A moment and I'll screen-shot.
20:08:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, also how did you dig that? I found vertical shafts a pita to dig without risk of dying
20:08:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, also lots of pickaxes for 4x4 that long
20:09:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: No health-checks in multiplayer. :p
20:09:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes but emptying it is kind of tricky I found. Even if starting from the top
20:09:26 <fizzie> (Though I built a 5x5 vertical shaft with no falls. It's not like you have to dig blocks below yourself.)
20:09:34 <fizzie> Also infinite diamond pickaxes.
20:09:43 <fizzie> 8 blocks from top of bedrock to the tree.
20:09:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, I tried multiplayer yesterday but I hit a sheep, saw the wool fall and then couldn't pick the wool up
20:10:03 <elliott> Multiplayer for Vorpal here means single-player multiplayer.
20:10:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, then later another sheep turned into a pig and then back into a sheep
20:10:17 <fizzie> Yes, it's not very finished yet.
20:10:19 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I tried local server, because I didn't know any good one
20:10:38 <elliott> I'm sure fizzie will be glad to have you on his server!
20:11:05 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, maybe I should just stop using a laptop for everything.
20:11:52 <fizzie> elliott: I don't run it, I don't know how that goes.
20:12:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do you ever actually move it?
20:12:31 <Vorpal> you could use a beefed up laptop and external monitor
20:12:50 <elliott> Vorpal: eliminates portability
20:12:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I don't actually think this laptop *can* be beefed up.
20:13:41 <Vorpal> laptops seldom can be beefed up much compared to when you buy them very much apart from adding more ram or replacing hdd.
20:13:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I already have a portable laptop, so getting another and then making it stationary seems like overkill.
20:13:54 <Vorpal> service manual stuff tends to be about replacing with same
20:14:06 <Vorpal> and replacing with better is unlikely to wkrk
20:14:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: Okay, maybe "far up" was a bit of an exaggeration: http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree3.png (The blue thing in the corner is sea-level, and the glass thing is the roof of the tree place, so that's about 20-25 blocks above sea.)
20:14:26 <Vorpal> elliott, the keys are diagonally next to each other :P
20:14:46 <elliott> I would buy a supercomputer just to get the highest-quality Minecraft.
20:15:07 <Vorpal> somehow I read that as
20:15:18 <elliott> fizzie: Looks very high up to me. Cloud-level.
20:15:19 <elliott> fizzie: Looks very high up to me. Cloud-level.
20:15:39 <Vorpal> I thought cloud was above the max altitude...
20:15:47 <Vorpal> just above the max altitude
20:15:50 <fizzie> You can go pretty far above clouds.
20:15:54 <elliott> I've been above a cloud before.
20:16:06 <elliott> Just -- the cloud was at, like, leg level.
20:16:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, is it random between games or?
20:16:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, because I was at max altitude and clouds were just above me I know...
20:16:58 <fizzie> I think it's different between singleplayer/multiplayer.
20:17:05 <fizzie> It might also be randomized for single-player games.
20:17:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, don't play any single player
20:18:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not much. This is how far up you can build, at least on this server: http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree4.png
20:19:07 <fizzie> Okay, it's pretty hard to judge distances down, I don't think that other house peak is at maximum level.
20:19:34 <Vorpal> eh. Doesn't look like altitude is 127 above bedrock there
20:19:40 <Vorpal> unless your ocean is very high
20:20:37 <elliott> fizzie's name is Fizzie Fizzie.
20:20:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 'cuz itz rad
20:21:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, also why do you build wooden houses that large? I get the point for early game shelter
20:21:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I bought it. So yes.
20:21:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, it can burn easily though
20:21:39 <fizzie> Some people prefer more natural, living materials.
20:21:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, what? reeds? cactuses?
20:22:15 <fizzie> I have in my single-player game a 2x2 log-trunk in the middle of my otherwise-stone building.
20:22:34 <elliott> <fizzie> Some people prefer more natural, living materials.
20:22:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, personally I go for "creeper-proof" which means I test with TNT just outside to make sure it is safe. Which means obsidian for the lower parts of the walls
20:23:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes but that doesn't risk the whole thing burning down :P
20:24:19 <Vorpal> what I would like is moving structures, like a drawbridge or such
20:24:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: This is a maximum-height shaft on that server: http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree5.png -- the platform the picture was taken from is 3 blocks down from the highest possible build altitude, and the platform at bottom is about 4 blocks above top of bedrock.
20:24:26 <fizzie> (It's a landing platform for jumping down.)
20:24:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, you need to add water there when notch implements health :P
20:25:08 <fizzie> I'm waiting for a cloud to pass through the tower so that I can count how much higher the top of the tower is from the clouds; I just missed getting a screenshot of one.
20:25:33 <Vorpal> *through* the tower. Hah
20:25:41 <Vorpal> In any other game it would be considered a bug
20:25:42 <fizzie> Well, they don't bother going around.
20:25:56 <fizzie> It's a bit annoying, actually, they reduce the visibility by quite a lot.
20:26:47 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, how did you pay? Surely you don't have a credit card?
20:27:11 <Vorpal> hm that's an interesting question indeed
20:27:37 <elliott> I might patent "a system by which a credit card is permitted to be used to purchase goods in exchange for the total cash sum of the purchase."
20:27:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, I have a rooftop tree too: http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree6.png
20:27:54 <elliott> (Well, I do have a "card", one of those Switch or Solo or whatever it is, but it's not as if anything accepts it.)
20:28:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, what happens if you place a sapling at max alt?
20:28:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: No idea. Maybe it won't grow much. Maybe it will crash the game.
20:28:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: Incidentally, there's a cloud now: the max alt is ~15 blocks from the top of the cloud.
20:28:54 <Vorpal> hm someone with nice bw and memory should start an esoteric minecraft server. Except that we have too many people not interested in that type of gameplay
20:29:17 <Vorpal> or not inside the tower?
20:29:25 <fizzie> I didn't happen to be inside.
20:29:29 <Sgeo> Building a BF interpreter in Minecraft?
20:29:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah, gave up waiting?
20:29:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: Went to take that rooftop tree picture.
20:30:16 <elliott> <elliott> I might patent "a system by which a credit card is permitted to be used to purchase goods in exchange for the total cash sum of the purchase."
20:30:25 <elliott> <Vorpal> hm someone with nice bw and memory should start an esoteric minecraft server. Except that we have too many people not interested in that type of gameplay
20:30:29 <elliott> I'll put it on the server once I get it going...
20:30:40 <elliott> I doubt it requires *that* much memory :P
20:31:03 * Sgeo bibbles at reddit downness
20:31:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: The brick chimney there goes straight down to my fireplace; it looks pretty interesting when seen from the top: http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree7.png
20:31:14 <fizzie> (Part of it is stone since it's the outer wall of the building.)
20:31:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, don't fall whatever you do
20:31:29 <Sgeo> Can you die? What happens if you do?
20:31:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, it's not like the fire would *hurt* you; again, multiplayer. :p
20:31:39 <Vorpal> Sgeo, not in multiplayer yet
20:31:50 <Vorpal> and you respawn, inventory lost
20:31:58 <Vorpal> respawn at the spawn point that is
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20:33:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It turns out that parental overlords often possess instruments of payment.
20:33:09 <elliott> It also turns out that I can afford Minecraft.
20:33:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: Though falling down would be a bit annoying, since you can't get out without breaking the fireplace, since the gap between the floor/fire and start of the chimney is just one block high: http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree8.png
20:33:27 <elliott> This is not exactly some esoteric magick.
20:33:46 <pikhq> elliott: Þou fooliſh knave! Þere be no ſecond perſon *ſingular* pronoun!
20:34:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, hey, I did buy an album with that Switch or Solo or whatever but it's expired by now and I'm lazy.
20:34:35 <Vorpal> elliott, can't you get visa electron or such? I got that when I was like 15 iirc. then got full visa when I was like 20 (could have got it at 18 but, meh, didn't bother changing card until I needed something that worked in those "not connected to the system" payment systems. Like on trains and such.
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20:34:52 <elliott> Vorpal: It's something "like" that, as I said it's called Switch or Solo or something.
20:34:57 <elliott> Vorpal: But there are a lot of places that don'at accept it...
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20:35:17 <Vorpal> elliott, but the electron thingy works in a lot of places. Like on the buses (but not on the trains)
20:35:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could easily replace it? brick is broken into brick after all
20:35:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, and you would be standing close enough it couldn't catch fire
20:36:02 <Vorpal> and would it even catch fire? Or is that just lava?
20:36:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a card of some form, but I have no idea where it is.
20:37:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: Did you notice my absurdly extravagant "solid block of diamond as a torch-holder" thing there?-)
20:37:57 <fizzie> Not like I'd have much use for it since things don't wear out.
20:37:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, and wtf. How can you get that much diamond
20:38:11 <fizzie> It's just 9 gems to get a block.
20:40:31 <Vorpal> in single player: boat I was in fell 50 blocks and landed on rock. Didn't break
20:40:46 <Vorpal> it missed the water pool at the bottom
20:41:05 <Vorpal> yet boats are fragile when they hit the shore too fast
20:41:33 <elliott> Vorpal: think non-newtonian fluid
20:42:19 <fizzie> Speaking of beefing up laptops (all the way back up there), I recall there was some talk on external graphics cards, like that ATI XGP (external box with Mobility Radeon HD 3870/HD 5870/some sort of dual-GPU thing, connected with a proprietary "external 16x PCI-E"; I suppose those haven't gotten really popularized yet?
20:42:44 <elliott> Athlon IIs are just cheaper Phenom IIs, right?
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20:46:31 <elliott> "AMD Phenom II X4 910e Deneb 2.6GHz 4 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 Cache Socket AM3 65W Quad-Core Desktop Processor HD910EOCGMBOX"
20:48:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I think I might as well just get a proper desktop computer, since I've been meaning to get one for a while.
20:49:48 <Sgeo> The music of the last phase of the final boss fight of Aquaria is epic
20:51:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Don't buy a premade one.
20:52:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I can totally get you a list of parts! I'd say that bsmnt is a happy customer who I can get an endorsement from, but I doubt it would be fruitful. Also his cost $1,600.
20:52:29 * Phantom_Hoover starts composing his "things to do over Christmas" list,
20:52:49 <elliott> NAME A BUDGET AND I'LL PROBABLY GET YOU THE BEST COMPUTER FOR THAT PRICE! PROBABLY!
20:53:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It was a while ago. Right now it's £991.
20:53:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But then, he had 4 cores (8 threads), 12 GiB of RAM, and 2 TiB of disk I think.
20:53:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So: TOTALLY FLEXIBLE HERE
20:54:03 <fizzie> elliott: Just produce for him a function that returns the best possible computer, given a price; then put that into a GUI with a slider he can twiddle around.
20:54:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Lower than £800 would probably be my loosest condition...
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20:55:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I managed to piece together components for a decent-ish computer for, like, £150 once.
20:55:30 <elliott> (Decent-ish: two core, AMD, I think 2 GiB of RAM.)
20:56:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No such thing. But there is... a scale of workingness.
20:57:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm likely to assemble a parts list even if you don't want me to out of sheer compulsiveness, so: Quad-core or dual-core? You probably want to say Quad, but if you're on an *extreme* budget no. (£799 is not an extreme budget.)
20:58:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What's the maximum price you wouldn't feel "rrk" about paying?
20:59:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, yes, and that's a fact. Try and find a computer of the specs I made for $1,600.
20:59:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Did I mention it included an 80 GiB Intel SSD?
20:59:30 <Sgeo> I think consensus is that they are an expensive thing
20:59:33 <Sgeo> For the same specs
20:59:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: When they were still $400 or something?
20:59:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also, they're generally... not well put-together.
20:59:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And the components are only Linux-optimal if you're extremely lucky.
21:00:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is £500 okay? :P
21:01:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Are you a silence freak like me? (Say no.)
21:01:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Can you withstand the noise of a constant jet engine?
21:01:58 <elliott> Note: Extreme exaggeration in place.
21:02:08 <elliott> Yeah, it won't be anything like that :P
21:02:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Nvidia or ATI? (The answer to your next question is "depends on the phase of the moon".)
21:03:16 <elliott> As I understand it, right now the open-source ATI drivers are better than the open-source Nvidia drivers, and the proprietary Nvidia drivers are the best of all.
21:03:21 <elliott> With the proprietary ATI drivers being decent.
21:03:34 <elliott> ATI have opened their specs, so they're less of an ENEMY OF FREEDOM.
21:03:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Nvidia then.
21:04:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think we should just all switch to ZFCR and stop fussing over that hypothesis.
21:04:22 <elliott> Not like I have great faith in ZFC's consistency to start with.
21:04:36 <fizzie> "Game"-class GPUs and silence seems to be a bit tricky thing to get; the out-of-the-box passively cooled parts are really low-end; stock cooling solutions are incredibly horrible when it comes to noise; and at least back few years ago third-party cooling on graphics cards was a lot iffier project -- due to completely non-standard sizes and shapes of things -- than third-party CPU cooling.
21:04:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm. It'll never be proven insoluble, so that'll never be a satisfactory option...
21:05:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If R turns out to be false, switch to ZFC~R. If you reject R you *already* throw out a LOT of modern mathematics.
21:05:35 <elliott> So it's practically an axiom already.
21:05:51 <elliott> fizzie: Well, Phantom_Hoover is using a laptop; it's nice like he needs *extreme* graphics power.
21:05:58 <elliott> fizzie: The passively-cooled GPUs do CUDA and everything nowadays...
21:06:10 <elliott> But yeah, the active coolers are *really* loud.
21:06:47 <fizzie> They do all the same things, they just don't do as much of it. And if you have a truu gamer, it's all about polygons. (Okay, shader pipelines or whatever now; but it was polygon fill rates back in the Voodoo days.)
21:08:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover gets what he gets for his meagre budget and likes it.
21:09:16 <elliott> It'll beat your Intel GPU. :P
21:10:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But don't expect to be playing Crysis at full settings!
21:11:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Every card is. More or less.
21:11:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They're all X.Org drivers...
21:13:11 <elliott> "Cons: The heatsink is so big that it blocked 2 pci cards on my motherboard. Horribly dissapointed, will be returning tomorrow."
21:13:27 <elliott> "Cons: Quickly goes over 60deg C according to SpeedFan after bootup and has gone as high as 67deg C in limited use."
21:13:31 <elliott> "Cons: As mentioned by others, the heat sink rises above and wraps around the top of the card. I couldn't get the door on my case to close with the card installed, will have to modify the ventilation cowl on the door."
21:13:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Your ears -- how tolerant are they of white noise?
21:14:21 -!- wareya has joined.
21:14:48 <fizzie> There's that old Dan's Data review of a cat, which has a pro/con comparison table between the set of {kitten, puppy, baby, new video card}, with those things scoring 11, 6, 2 and 3 points, respectively.
21:14:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That is kind of hard without calibrating your volume...
21:14:52 <fizzie> http://www.dansdata.com/kitten.htm
21:14:53 <Vorpal> elliott, what is that monster fan?
21:15:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Which monster fan?
21:15:13 <Vorpal> elliott, the one you listed cons for
21:15:27 <Vorpal> which monster heatsink
21:15:29 <elliott> Vorpal: No, graphics card.
21:15:37 <elliott> It's not that big. Just big for a graphics card.
21:15:50 <elliott> fizzie: dan's data is my favourite site ever
21:15:56 <elliott> Vorpal: I've gone off the page now.
21:16:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Here: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814500155
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21:17:07 <fizzie> Both of my passively-cooled GPUs -- Geforces 7600something and 8600something -- have rather huger heatsinks than that; fortunately I don't have very much stuff inside the chassis. (One of them has a rather silly thing that can be adjusted to a 90-degree angle.)
21:17:41 <elliott> "Note that kittens in standby mode still emit noticeable heat. This is normal; no efforts to cool the kitten with fans, heat sinks, water jackets or chilled Fluorinert immersion should be made."
21:18:08 <Vorpal> elliott, passive or what+
21:18:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, it's a passively cooled kitten.
21:18:28 <elliott> "NOTE: Kittens do not have any computer-compatible ports. Don't try to plug anything into them. I'm serious."
21:18:47 <Vorpal> elliott, about the GPU :P
21:19:01 <fizzie> It looks like this thing, except more so: http://www.techfuels.com/attachments/everything-else/7232d1225013048-asus-en7600gt-video-card-asus-en7600gt-video-card.jpg -- the thing there is supposed to be rotated 90 degrees so that it's airflowly speaking cooled better.
21:19:04 <elliott> Unless you meant "passive /or what/"
21:19:04 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I have come to the conclusion that I am tolerant of white noise.
21:19:18 <Vorpal> elliott, hm perhaps I did. If that is the right answer :P
21:19:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Spoken like someone who has never heard a GPU fan.
21:19:26 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I saw nothing saying kitten on that page
21:19:29 <elliott> Vorpal: "X or WHAT?" i.e. "Very X!"
21:19:32 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.dansdata.com/kitten.htm
21:19:43 <elliott> "Herewith, a rundown of the relative merits of four options for the computer enthusiast - a kitten, a puppy, a baby, and (as a representative example of the more usual kind of home information technology purchase) a new video card."
21:19:47 <fizzie> Oh, and here's the passively-cooled 8600gt I have: http://techreport.com/r.x/12962_Gigabyte_Silent_Pipe_3_finds_redemption/gigabyte-silent-gt.jpg
21:19:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant the newegg link...
21:20:04 <fizzie> Or at least it's in the same style.
21:21:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: While doing things
21:22:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, GPU fans are not exactly pure white noise...
21:22:15 <elliott> Imagine a hoover's noise. You should be familiar with them, being one.
21:22:26 <fizzie> Do phantom hoovers make a noise, I wonder?
21:22:32 <fizzie> Maybe it's just some sort of ghostly clanking.
21:23:01 <oklopol> even i don't like hoover noise :o
21:23:26 <oklopol> and i love drilling, hammering and all kinds of motors
21:23:35 <fizzie> I don't like the Roomba noise, and despite all prior evidence (youtube), our cat just simply refuses to ride on it.
21:24:34 <Vorpal> what is wrong with "vacuum cleaner"?
21:24:38 <elliott> fizzie: Does it actually work?
21:24:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh come on, you know the answer to that.
21:24:49 <elliott> fizzie has multiple personality disorder.
21:25:03 <elliott> (It is utterly unthinkable that anyone in #esoteric would ever be in any kind of relationship ever. Unless it's with a dog or something.)
21:25:06 <oklopol> yeah, fizzie married his alter ego fizziet
21:25:12 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, fizzie's married to his multiple personality?
21:25:18 <elliott> It's fizzie, and fizzie fizzie.
21:25:38 <Vorpal> elliott, that counts as a relationship. Even if with himself
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21:25:50 <Phantom_Hoover> It is also inconceivable that someone here is even vaguely related to a female.
21:25:50 <Vorpal> elliott, as long as he isn't a dog or something it isn't possible
21:26:03 <oklopol> augur: all kinds of uninteresting stuff!
21:26:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, we've had three females in here over our entire history.
21:26:07 <Phantom_Hoover> How many confirmedly female people have there been here?
21:26:09 <augur> oklopol: oh? do tell!
21:26:31 <oklopol> well i just ate some stuff and watched family guy
21:26:49 <fizzie> elliott: Well, it's not as thorough as a human vacuumerizer, and takes quite a lot longer, but it does take care of most of the dust and cat-fur conglomerations. This place would actually be pretty clean if we just bothered to run that thing every few days, but I'm too lazy to move the heavy dining table chairs out of its way that often.
21:26:57 <Phantom_Hoover> How did we ever manage such a ridiculous demographic thing?
21:27:05 <oklopol> also i'm giving this talk in a CA conference
21:27:20 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> well i just ate some stuff and watched family guy <oklopol> and i own a piano <oklopol> and i'm not wearing socks
21:27:24 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
21:27:29 <HackEgo> 259|<oklopol> well i just ate some stuff and watched family guy <oklopol> and i own a piano <oklopol> and i'm not wearing socks
21:29:20 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:29:35 <oklopol> ais523: did you hear i'm not wearing socks
21:30:04 <fizzie> Hey, unless my /who is lying, this unknown "aloril" person is also a .fi one; has the hypothetical Finnish channel domination plan taken one more step ahead?
21:30:55 <fizzie> Maybe he's a she! (I was trying to look for female-sounding realnames; out of 54 surely there should be at least one.)
21:31:08 <augur> oklopol: no socks?!
21:31:40 -!- fungot has joined.
21:31:47 <fizzie> fungot: Which gender are you?
21:31:47 <fungot> fizzie: hmmm... apache/ 1.3.33 is hard to spell because it's had so many machines ( suns) it collapsed.... like nuns in the street
21:31:53 <elliott> <fizzie> Hey, unless my /who is lying, this unknown "aloril" person is also a .fi one; has the hypothetical Finnish channel domination plan taken one more step ahead?
21:31:59 <elliott> I *know* I've heard of a related aloril lately.
21:32:45 <elliott> Let me tally up the female hominids whose names I remember... Sukoshi, lilja.
21:33:05 <elliott> I know for sure there is one more that's been in here. fax I just won't even get into after what happened the last time I referred to it as any sort of gender.
21:33:08 <fizzie> Google seems to suggest just Computer Go.
21:33:13 <elliott> Yes, our oestrogen levels are off the charts.
21:33:25 <fizzie> elliott: For "aloril".
21:33:32 <elliott> It rings *such* a bell though
21:33:49 <fizzie> elliott: Well, also some things in a game of life context.
21:34:18 <augur> oklopol: dont worry, i was gentle
21:34:22 <Vorpal> <fungot> fizzie: hmmm... apache/ 1.3.33 is hard to spell because it's had so many machines ( suns) it collapsed.... like nuns in the street <-- eh, good try at ryhme. suns, nuns...
21:34:23 <fungot> Vorpal: modulo 350? *l*) fnord in python the true and false in that definition
21:34:35 <augur> i beat mirror's edge earlier today :T
21:34:39 <elliott> Vorpal: "It collapsed like nuns in the street" -- my favourite line of all lines.
21:35:44 <Vorpal> elliott, you forgot the ...
21:35:52 <fizzie> Unsupported street nuns are prone to collapse.
21:35:54 <elliott> Vorpal: It was "....", actually.
21:36:14 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
21:36:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, like minecraft sand?
21:36:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Minecraft and reddit: Good career moves. "You know that guy that built a computer on minecraft? He got a job because some company saw it on reddit. A freaking job."
21:36:45 <Vorpal> elliott, are you sure it is true?
21:36:57 <Vorpal> elliott, also what type of job
21:37:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Well-publicised YouTube video... so I'd guess so.
21:37:06 <elliott> (And the same person on reddit.)
21:37:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Type of job - probably programmer...
21:37:18 <elliott> Vorpal: "Would you please stop, and just come to work for me?
21:37:23 <elliott> "If you're within a couple hundred miles of Athens, GA when I finish my degree, look me up."
21:37:25 <Vorpal> elliott, could be hw designer :P
21:37:25 <elliott> "We are in downtown Atlanta, specializing in massive multiplayer games."
21:37:31 <Vorpal> elliott, if it was I would be scared
21:37:48 <elliott> "Hey now, I created an ALU, plus the rest of a fully functioning CPU in LogicWorks when I was in University, and no one offered me a job!"
21:37:52 <elliott> [same company guy] "Send me your resume."
21:39:52 <elliott> Everyone who continues the tradition of referring to me as "she" for the purpose of opinion (is there anyone left?): Try "it". It's 10x so.
21:40:17 <fizzie> elliott: I think I saw him refer to you as "he or she" the other day.
21:40:26 <elliott> fizzie: No, that's standard ais523.
21:40:50 <fizzie> Does he do that for known-gender targets too? Well, why not, I guess.
21:41:20 <elliott> fizzie: Mostly "e" though. Well. On Agora.
21:42:05 <Vorpal> over (and a smidgen to the left).
21:42:34 <Vorpal> (I love that word, very seldom you get a chance to use it though)
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21:49:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: Here's the multiplayer "I can see right through you" bug; happened to be walking by, got a shot: http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree9.png (If you'd go nearer to the edge, you'd probably see a huge pile of lava caves. The missing blocks have already appeared, though.)
21:51:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, subtree seems to stretch it a bit :P
21:51:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, and I saw that on the local server I tested
21:51:56 <fizzie> Yes, I should've probably started with a more generic name.
21:52:00 <Vorpal> persisted for a minute
21:52:11 * pikhq feels like vomiting
21:52:43 <fizzie> I don't blame you: graphics glitches make me pretty nauseous too.
21:53:27 <Phantom_Hoover> God, I really can't handle other people with the same name as me...
21:54:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, Nick.
21:54:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, George.
21:54:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, Richard.
21:54:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, John.
21:54:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, Harry.
21:55:51 <pikhq> John Jacob Jingleheimershmit?
21:56:01 <elliott> pikhq: Hey. That name is my name too!
21:56:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Indianajones (one word).
21:56:19 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Valentinez Alkalinella Xifax Sicidabohertz Gombigobilla Blue Stradivari Talentrent Pierre Andri Charton-Haymoss Ivanovici Baldeus George Doitzel Kaiser III?
21:56:26 <pikhq> elliott: What an astounding coincidence.
21:56:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ronjeremy-Mozart.
21:56:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: El-ahrairah.
21:57:09 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Love Symbol #2?
21:57:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Big Fucking Edward?
21:57:32 <pikhq> So's Love Symbol #2.
21:57:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So's Big Fucking Edward.
21:57:49 <elliott> ais523: can you *believe* rutian still exists?
21:58:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: [symbol naming the artist formerly known as Prince]
22:00:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, augur knew it at one point, but I'll kill him if he speaks.
22:00:47 -!- gm|lap has joined.
22:03:02 <pikhq> elliott: The name of the symbol is Love Symbol #2. Or, if someone puts it into Unicode, LOVE SYMBOL 2
22:04:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:05:06 <elliott> augur, what's phanty's name?
22:07:51 <elliott> Linux rutian 2.6.16.29-xen #1 SMP Sun Sep 30 04:00:13 UTC 2007 x86_64
22:09:26 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
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22:16:58 <ais523> <elliott> ais523: can you *believe* rutian still exists? <--- I'd be quite surprised that nobody had unVMed it by now
22:17:16 <elliott> ais523: I don't understand your statement.
22:17:40 <olsner> elliott: have you seen http://www.es40.org/ES40_Emulator?
22:18:32 <elliott> olsner: seems imperfect :)
22:18:46 <elliott> http://www.es40.org/Running_Tru64_UNIX_in_the_Emulator
22:20:07 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:20:09 <olsner> this palcode thing alphas have seems pretty neat
22:20:48 <olsner> eugh, "Timing problems introduced with the new threading model (needs research)"
22:21:10 <elliott> Gregor: Is prgmr still crap?
22:21:20 <olsner> it's like a library of subroutines you can load into the cpu as your own assembly instructions
22:21:25 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:21:35 <olsner> or "microcode", but you write them in alpha assembly afaict
22:21:44 <Gregor> elliott: It's mostly gone back to normal. I never measured the disk speed before, so I don't really have the right baseline, I feel like it's a BIT slower, but not horribly slow...
22:22:04 <elliott> Gregor: Would you recommend it? :P
22:22:11 -!- WebCoding4Fun has joined.
22:22:15 -!- WebCoding4Fun has left (?).
22:22:25 <elliott> Gregor: ...with the kind of problems you've had?
22:22:28 <Gregor> What I would NOT recommend is web coding for fun.
22:22:33 <Gregor> elliott: That is the ONLY problem I've had.
22:22:42 <elliott> Gregor: Pretty long and big problem :P
22:23:17 <Gregor> elliott: It only seemed like a big problem from the perspective of #esoteric since I had to kill the bots :P
22:23:28 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, you pasted dd output :P
22:23:47 <Gregor> Idonno, it just sort of faded away X-P
22:24:17 <elliott> Gregor: How long was it that bad? :P
22:24:23 <zzo38> Do any computers allow dynamically changing microcodes while the program is running?
22:24:41 <Gregor> elliott: Probably about two weeks.
22:24:50 <elliott> Gregor: Doesn't inspire confidence, man :P
22:25:13 <Gregor> elliott: Why did you even ask me if you've already decided they suck?
22:25:45 <elliott> Gregor: I haven't; I *did* recommend them to you. I'm trying to figure out how you don't consider this a deal-breaker.
22:26:10 <Gregor> Because they halved my rent for the month things were bad? X-P
22:26:29 <elliott> Gregor: Fair 'nuff; server-wide problem then? :P
22:26:41 <Gregor> Err, yes, where "server" = box.
22:26:42 <elliott> Gregor: Universe hates you?
22:27:30 <Gregor> The universe wurves me :P
22:27:47 <elliott> Gregor: Which vips do you haev agaein?
22:28:53 <elliott> Gregor: HRY THAT'S WHAT IM GETTING WE'REER LIKE VPS SEOUL MAYTZ
22:28:58 <pikhq> zzo38: The N64's GPU and audio processor was designed around that.
22:29:19 <pikhq> As were the two vector units on the Playstation 2.
22:29:26 <elliott> Gregor: Is the RAM ... usable? :P
22:29:31 <pikhq> (so many fucking processors on that SOB)
22:30:06 <Gregor> elliott: It seems to be quite sufficient for everything I do *shrugs*
22:30:19 <elliott> Gregor: LIKE MINECRAFT SERVERS AMIRITGH
22:30:37 <elliott> Gregor: Y'know, it'd run a hell of a lot better with
22:30:56 <Gregor> It's Xen, install whatever you want to.
22:31:13 <zzo38> Is it possible to make computer hardware such that a processor can have the NMI handler in a fixed location in ROM but that the other interrupt handlers are RAM?
22:31:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Absolutely!*
22:31:51 <elliott> Gregor: Ah, but you see, I need YOUR AXE.
22:32:01 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:32:03 <elliott> Gregor: (Does it let you use a completely fucked-up kernel?)
22:32:06 <Phantom_Hoover> But it's a kitten with a tinfoil had with a USB lead attached!
22:32:09 <elliott> Gregor: (We're talking no modules here.)
22:32:27 <Gregor> elliott: So long as it's compiled for Xen and has the Xen virtual HD support etc.
22:32:36 -!- oklopol has joined.
22:32:56 <Phantom_Hoover> It also purrs when it gets to some heavy-duty rendering.
22:33:01 <elliott> Gregor: That sounds BEYOND BORING* *Is that easy to do?
22:33:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ^_______________________^ can i buy it
22:33:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, my cat is a) male and b) neutered, so we're short of supply right now.
22:33:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sex change + ovary transplant.
22:34:49 <zzo38> Is there a Windows driver for USB devices that use Plan 9 protocol? Is there a Linux driver for USB devices that use Plan 9 protocol?
22:35:07 <elliott> zzo38: Well, uh, Linux has 9P support...
22:35:46 <zzo38> elliott: Can you mount a USB device that can communicate to the computer by using 9P?
22:35:49 * comex annotates CFJs for the ruleset
22:36:38 <elliott> comex: vote for my porpoise^Wproposal
22:36:44 <comex> yeah that's why I clicked this channel
22:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, also, the kitten chases after the things it's rendering.
22:37:00 <Gregor> elliott: MORE LIKE DEMON CRAP
22:37:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ;_; why do youd o this to me
22:39:13 <Phantom_Hoover> It can serve as a sound card too, but its range of outputs are limited.
22:39:42 <elliott> I would love to hear a kitten output Never Gonna Give You Up.
22:40:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Mewmew mewmew mew mew purrr, mewmew mewmew mew mew purrr, mewmew mewmew...
22:41:36 <elliott> That so does not translate X-P
22:41:45 <Phantom_Hoover> If you give it a dish of milk you can get a temporary boost in performance.
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22:41:57 <zzo38> Instead of installing USB devices on /dev/sdb and so on, it should install USB devices on /dev/usb/00.d and so on. (And give the file timestamp according to when the device is connected)
22:43:58 <Phantom_Hoover> It has long periods of downtime, however, and a habit of blocking the fan vent.
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23:51:02 <elliott> Vorpal: I reject your epoll!
23:51:22 <elliott> Vorpal: And substitute my FORKING. Because I'm NONCONFORMIST.
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00:05:12 <Vorpal> elliott, well it depends on what sort of server
00:05:22 <elliott> Vorpal: httpd in this case :P
00:05:24 <Vorpal> elliott, it wouldn't work for IRC. Then you would need IPC
00:05:46 <elliott> Vorpal: I just saw some pointless mini-httpd benchmarks and it was amazing what did well
00:05:53 <elliott> Vorpal: for instance, the top performer was using select()
00:06:04 <elliott> Vorpal: and there was another top one that forked, iirc
00:06:48 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:07:07 <elliott> Vorpal: ignoring Connection: close -- what could possibly go wrong? (parsing headers is hard!)
00:08:15 <Vorpal> elliott, why is it hard?
00:08:25 <Vorpal> and why would you ignore that one?
00:08:39 <elliott> Vorpal: TAKES TIME (and because it's MORE FASTER if i keep the connection open forever)
00:08:44 <elliott> note: header parsing is on the todo :P
00:08:56 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
00:08:57 <Vorpal> elliott, like, finding out what file to get? ;P
00:09:24 <Vorpal> elliott, good for "sorry main server broken" but that is all
00:09:44 <elliott> OR FOR SERVING ONE FILE A LOT
00:10:04 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/Code/httpd$ nc localhost 8080
00:10:06 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/Code/httpd$
00:11:40 <Vorpal> well duh since you are not parsing anything it is easy :P
00:12:30 <elliott> Vorpal: http://91.105.107.242:8081/
00:12:31 <elliott> Vorpal: TELL ME HOW FAST IT IS
00:13:25 <elliott> Vorpal: just realised you could implement cat with sendfile X-D
00:13:51 <zzo38> elliott: That server seems to not care about the request, and always sends headers and a HTML file.
00:14:19 <Vorpal> elliott, a few seconds to load
00:14:31 <elliott> Vorpal: to be fair, this is a dsl connection in the uk :P
00:14:40 <fizzie> elliott: Only if you don't mind being able to cat only mmapable files into sockets, at least on Linux.
00:14:42 <zzo38> elliott: It is sufficiently fast
00:14:45 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. Which will dominate for all servers
00:16:09 <fizzie> There is the slightly more general splice(2) mechanism, but even that requires at least one pipe, since it's basically just pipe buffer management.
00:16:18 <zzo38> It ought to read the request at least to determine whether or not to send headers (or if it should send only headers). And it isn't very useful if there is only one file on there, anyways.
00:16:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, aargh you beat me to it by one second
00:17:02 <elliott> zzo38: What if the file was the best file of all files?
00:17:39 <zzo38> elliott: It doesn't matter; there still needs multiple files.
00:17:46 <Vorpal> elliott, note: zzo doesn't work that way.
00:18:27 <elliott> Vorpal: ..."work that way"? xD
00:18:50 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. You will have to figure it out
00:19:02 <elliott> He doesn't run on batteries.
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00:19:44 <fizzie> Solaris 10 sendfile(2) can copy a source "regular file" into a destination that can be either "regular file" or af_inet/af_inet6 sock_stream socket. So you can do cp(1) with sendfile.
00:19:50 <Vorpal> elliott, an astute and accurate observation.
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00:21:58 <fizzie> Solaris sendfile also can send a buffer instead of a file by using SFV_FD_SELF as the source fd. It's not very clear to me how that's an improvement over just write()ing the buffer.
00:22:30 <elliott> Aww, http://localhost:8081/ is frozen on one page.
00:23:10 <Vorpal> elliott, read a thread about someone explaining a (now fixed) griefing method on the minecraft forums. Using big O notation to explain why it was a problem (O(n) placing, O(n²) cleanup). This comment was really sad: "anyway 0(n) always equals 0 because 0 x (n) is like 0 times 1 or 0 times a centilion its still 0 your math makes no sense"
00:23:36 <elliott> Vorpal: I would pulverise their skull.
00:23:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Whoever wrote that.
00:23:51 <zzo38> If you need simplicity and somehow you need to send only one file (I am unsure why), you do not need to use HTTP at all, you can use the gopher protocol, and assuming it is a binary file and that the server does not wait for the selector string, it will be easy to download: nc x.example.org 70 > the_file
00:24:05 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. I don't think they took university math though
00:24:20 <Vorpal> elliott, probably US education or Swedish education
00:24:23 <zzo38> So, no special software is needed; just netcat is good enough to download this file.
00:24:28 <elliott> Vorpal: It is one thing to be ignorant; it is another entirely to assume that you are more knowledgeable.
00:24:39 <elliott> zzo38: i didn't write netcat though.
00:24:44 <elliott> zzo38: you should write your own nethack
00:24:50 <elliott> zzo38: you should write your own netcat
00:24:55 <zzo38> elliott: You should be able to write a simple netcat program if needed
00:25:09 <zzo38> And perhaps I can also write a netcat program if needed, too
00:25:12 <elliott> now why is this seemingly always 3...
00:27:16 <elliott> Ha, my server is beyond broken now.
00:35:07 <olsner> <elliott> I would pulverise their skull. <--- I approve
00:37:15 <elliott> Gregor: did you get an explanation for the slow disk performance, out of curiosity?
00:37:38 <Gregor> Just that the other users on my system were overutilizing.
00:40:04 <Sgeo> I <3 /r/tipofmytongue
00:40:05 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/tipofmytongue/comments/e5z1f/tomt_series_of_books_about_kids_on_an_island/
00:40:47 <Vorpal> elliott, http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15497 <-- but it won't work any more
00:41:03 <elliott> Vorpal: i just meant for stupid :)
00:41:05 <Vorpal> elliott, somewhere in that thread
00:41:28 <Vorpal> elliott, grep for the string I copied
00:41:56 <elliott> "Thanks for posting this and teaching future griefers how to do it. =/" itt: full disclosure
00:46:52 <elliott> " -- 1.6GHz CPU (Anything more than one core makes no difference)
00:46:53 <elliott> -- DirectX 9 capable graphics card. With (at least) Pixel Shader 1."
00:48:38 <elliott> Vorpal: got to the post gave up on life
00:52:06 <elliott> Vorpal: those forums are 99% noise.
00:52:46 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. The first few posts are the only stuff worth reading on most threads
00:53:00 <elliott> Vorpal: needs moar mailing list :)
00:53:05 <elliott> reminder to self: rewriting systems.
00:53:12 <elliott> i am going up to the topic bar
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00:53:20 <Vorpal> elliott, and well, the redstone logic threads, and massive minecart/redstone-logic transportation networks are saner
00:53:31 <Sgeo> Bruce Coville owns my childhood.
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01:07:04 <pikhq> Why must it be cold?
01:07:23 <Sgeo> Because you never read Bruce Coville
01:07:44 <Sgeo> Sorry, just found out that he authored many of the books I read as a kid
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01:19:38 <Ilari> Hmm... The recent major adjustment in IPv4 depletion timing bought the two major models much closer together...
01:20:44 <Ilari> Like, about seven week diffrence was brought down to about three weeks...
01:21:55 <Ilari> Estimating X-day is basically estimating when RIPE and APNIC grab their next block...
01:22:21 <Ilari> Pick the later of the two estimates, and that is the X-day estimate.
01:22:41 <Sgeo> How many blocks are left?
01:22:50 <Sgeo> Are you saying there are only 2 blocks?
01:23:39 <Ilari> ARIN is going to grab soon. It is RIPE and APNIC that are going to grab the last 4 blocks. But question is, when the latter of those grabs happens?
01:24:57 <Ilari> Of course, large surprise allocations could skew it...
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01:34:38 <Ilari> Basically, what that AFRINIC allocation did is to transfer the uncertainity from AFRINIC (which doesn't seem to be handled too well by the models) into well-handled APNIC and RIPE.
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01:39:50 <Ilari> Actually, one large suprise allocation probably wouldn't skew it too much, because there is need for two RIRs to allocate after ARIN. Even RIPE taking surprise allocation moving its date a lot would only move the estimate by about 2 weeks (because APNIC would have to allocate).
01:40:43 <Ilari> Barring major surprises, the end-game is clear: ARIN, APNIC and RIPE will each allocate 2 blocks and last of those three will exhaust the pool.
01:49:00 <Ilari> Basically, the only thing that can move X day a lot is "run on the bank" scenario.
01:49:47 <Ilari> Or both APNIC and RIPE taking huge allocations.
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01:55:10 <Sgeo> Do we finally start seeing IPv6 adaption?
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02:07:27 <Ilari> Nobody really knows... On the worst case, panic allocations start...
02:09:56 <pikhq> Sgeo: I expect IPv6 adoption to only really start on RIR pool depletion, as people finally realise that they *actually need to do it*.
02:18:47 <Ilari> These are two seperate things... IPv4 pool depletion and IPv6 adaption...
02:23:29 <pikhq> And IPv6 adoption will be mandatory in a bit over a year's time, it looks like.
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04:25:57 <pikhq> elliot: So, you said that Echoes was the only good part of Meddle... How convenient that that's half the album.
04:26:12 <pikhq> (the album is 46 minutes, Echoes is 23 minutes)
04:58:49 <Ilari> And too bad the IPv6 "last mile" stuff looks real mess...
04:59:52 <pikhq> By which I presume you mean "Dear God, Comcast is the *only* US ISP even trying."
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05:00:47 <Ilari> Isn't there some french ISP that has IPv6 in *production* use.
05:01:08 <Ilari> (not testing like Comcast).
05:02:25 <pikhq> NTT (in Japan) has offered IPv6 at home since *2000*.
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05:34:27 <gm|lap> not sure if any isp in nz actually supplies it
05:34:34 <gm|lap> we get ours through a tunnel broker
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06:29:46 <JoeyA> Just wondering, has anyone formulated a syntax for closures in LOLCODE?
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06:32:07 <JoeyA> I'm thinking GIMMEH A <var> FOR TO <expression>
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07:45:01 <Ilari> Hah... xine SIGSEGVs if you unlink file that is on the playlist and then attempt to to play it.
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07:46:27 <Ilari> Ah, now it just threw an error dialog.
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11:07:04 <Ilari> Heh... I tried guessing the amount of energy in McDonalds Quater Pounder. I guessed 600kcal, reality is 535kcal (not that calories count). Now, what's the amount of calories in most calorie-loaded product Starbucks sells? :-)
11:09:16 <Ilari> Fun fact: People can quite accurately estimate the number of calories in fast food. But ask them to estimate number of calories in food sold by "more upscale" places, and the estimates will be _WAY_ low.
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11:28:12 <Ilari> Crowdsourcing cancels out random errors, but it does not cancel out systematic bias.
11:32:47 <fizzie> Then you just need a better crowd.
11:35:10 <Ilari> And there's also the case where true answer lies in the extreme. Then the errors can't cancel out.
11:35:54 <Ilari> (that is, one can't guess any higher/lower than the true answer because such answer wouldn't make any sense).
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15:21:52 <pikhq> Ilari: Most calories in their most calorie-loaded? Well, their drinks are huge. I'm going with ~700 kcal (or ~29200 kJ).
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15:31:53 <fizzie> pikhq: Venti Iced Double Chocolaty Chip Frappuccino with whipped cream: 800 kcal. (Note: based on a very heuristic search for calories, not an exhaustive browsing of the menu.)
15:33:19 <pikhq> Wow, I was only a hundred short.
15:35:23 <fizzie> Granted, "Venti Iced" *is* 24 oz (or apparently 0.7 litres).
15:38:36 <pikhq> Yeah, the venti is gigantic.
15:39:45 <pikhq> And people reguarly obtain it.
15:41:51 <pikhq> And it's not even that good of coffee.
15:51:22 <pikhq> Gigantic things of shitty coffee.
15:56:34 * ais523_ thinks the existence of http://www.amazon.com/review/R403HR4VL71K8/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm is hilarious; Peter Norvig wrote a review of SICP on Amazon
16:00:19 <Vorpal> ais523_, hm the review is good and sensible as far as I can tell. So that means you probably think it is hilarious due to who wrote it.
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16:07:19 <ais523_> Vorpal: actually, I think it's the location that's hilarious
16:07:19 <Phantom_Hoover> So, I got kicked out of maths today for disagreeing with the teacher over whether 0 \in N.
16:07:23 <ais523_> in addition to who wrote it
16:07:36 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: never use N the set, use restrictions of Z instead
16:07:42 <ais523_> mathematicians don't generally agree on how to define N
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16:43:57 <Sgeo> Tried to help someone with their regex issues
16:44:00 <Sgeo> Couldn't figure it out
16:44:10 <Sgeo> Turns out that they actually typed a newline into their string
16:44:14 <Sgeo> It wasn't wordwrap
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16:49:06 <pikhq> Disease sucks. We should wipe out all other life-forms so that I can live without microbial diseases.
16:50:26 <pikhq> konekotatikàarukamosirann…
16:53:05 <pikhq> Wouldn't help you anyways.
16:53:15 <pikhq> But, "There's probably kittens".
16:54:29 <elliott> pikhq: i'm up for wiping out non-sentient lifeforms if we can make it beneficial :P
16:55:32 <elliott> 20:25:57 <pikhq> elliot: So, you said that Echoes was the only good part of Meddle... How convenient that that's half the album.
16:55:32 <elliott> 20:26:12 <pikhq> (the album is 46 minutes, Echoes is 23 minutes)
16:55:37 <elliott> pikhq: Indeed! In fact it's one side.
16:55:51 <elliott> pikhq: So you could buy it and fashion the other side into a sculpture or something.
16:56:06 <elliott> 21:00:47 <Ilari> Isn't there some french ISP that has IPv6 in *production* use.
16:56:06 <elliott> 21:01:08 <Ilari> (not testing like Comcast).
16:56:11 <elliott> Ilari: Bogons.net offer it in the UK.
16:56:19 <elliott> 22:29:46 <JoeyA> Just wondering, has anyone formulated a syntax for closures in LOLCODE?
16:56:28 <elliott> alt.language.lolcode.die.die.die
16:57:09 <elliott> 07:56:34 * ais523_ thinks the existence of http://www.amazon.com/review/R403HR4VL71K8/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm is hilarious; Peter Norvig wrote a review of SICP on Amazon
16:57:13 <elliott> ais523: but has he read his SICP today?
16:57:24 <ais523_> elliott: I doubt he needs to, I suspect he's already completed the whole thing
16:57:36 <elliott> 08:07:36 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: never use N the set, use restrictions of Z instead
16:57:36 <elliott> 08:07:42 <ais523_> mathematicians don't generally agree on how to define N
16:57:41 <ais523_> the review itself is sane, I'm just amused at the person/book/location combo
16:57:44 <elliott> ais523_: strongly disagree, N is universally agreed to include 0
16:57:49 <ais523_> and I'm aware it's a meme, I just don't see how it's a relevant one
16:57:51 <elliott> unless mathematicians are much less sane than i thought
16:58:10 <ais523_> elliott: it's far from universal, it's been around 50-50 for the mathematicians I've seen
16:58:21 <ais523_> (I myself refuse to use it due to ambiguity, unless either definition would work fine)
16:58:21 <elliott> ais523_: wrt SICP: It's a /prog/ meme, they don't have to be relevant, you just pattern-match on the word
16:58:27 <Sgeo> Doesn't Peano start with zero?
16:58:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't actually know what the teacher said in response, since she kicked me out of the lesson.
16:58:43 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: what, before saying something in response?
16:58:53 <ais523_> normally, you get told why you're being thrown out before you're thrown out
16:58:55 <elliott> How odd at Wikipedia's intro.
16:59:07 <ais523_> btw, which way round did you have it, which way round did the teacher have it?
16:59:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: EDUCATION!
16:59:24 <elliott> ais523_: anyway, with zero is the obvious way to do it
16:59:35 <elliott> ais523_: e.g. for the 0 = {}, S(x) = x union {x} definition
16:59:39 <elliott> ais523_: and Peano numbers
16:59:48 <elliott> ais523_: I don't know of any nice construction that starts with
16:59:50 <elliott> ais523_: I don't know of any nice construction that starts with 1
17:00:17 <Sgeo> If you exclude 0, division is eas.. no it's not
17:00:19 <ais523_> elliott: fundamental theorem of arithmetic gets screwed up by 0 (although it has to special-case 1 too)
17:00:39 <elliott> ais523_: i quote your parenthesis in response
17:00:42 <elliott> *ais523_: i quote your parenthesised statement in response
17:00:51 <elliott> ais523_: although, someone arguing that 1 isn't in N would be great
17:01:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: sure, just special case *2
17:02:21 <elliott> ais523_: ha, according to a comment on Norvig's review of SICP, The God Delusion is *less controversial* than SICP for ratings
17:02:34 <elliott> ais523_: well, I was going to write S(y)
17:02:36 <ais523_> you mean x*2 = x+x, x*3 = x+x+x, x*(y+2) = x + x + x*y
17:02:39 <elliott> but then realised it might not be successor-based
17:02:52 <elliott> "None of the major unix vendors (including Apple) have donated a dime to the makers of their ssh tool (they are called out in the last paragraph)"
17:02:59 <elliott> It's open source software, guys.
17:03:14 <ais523_> people who license their software under BSD, then complain when people use it commercially without compensation
17:03:18 <elliott> You use the BSD because you want shit like that to happen. Your project is one of the most vitrolic BSD advocates.
17:03:38 <elliott> ais523_: "In the 10 years since the inception of the OpenSSH project, these companies have contributed not even a dime of thanks in support of the OpenSSH project (despite numerous requests)."
17:03:52 <elliott> ais523_: I wonder what a Theo de Raadt donation request looks like.
17:04:01 <elliott> "Give me some fucking money or I'll shut down the CVS repository again?"
17:04:10 <ais523_> hmm, I seem to remember Theo de Raadt has a famous personality, but I can't remember what it is
17:04:10 <elliott> (incidentally: great argument for distributed version control, the fact that he's done that twice after having a fit)
17:04:40 <pikhq> On the one hand, that's kinda sad — OpenSSH is good work, and they could do with some cash for it. On the other hand: them's the breaks, Theo. Sometimes, you'll do a bunch of hard work and only have the satisfaction of knowing that it's good work.
17:04:43 <elliott> ais523_: he flames almost everyone, has regular hissy fits, and has shut down the entire CVS repository (!) twice, in 2002 and 2010, just because he wasn't happy with how the developers were being.
17:05:04 <elliott> ais523_: there's a reason the NetBSD guys fired him :)
17:05:15 <ais523_> apparently (with the usual Reddit-related meaning of "apparently"), he insisted donations were made to him personally rather than the BSD projects as a whole
17:05:17 <pikhq> So, we've got slightly asshole companies and a complete whiny bastard developer.
17:05:18 <elliott> even Torvalds thinks he's a pain
17:05:27 <elliott> ais523_: heh, I even *predicted* that a few lines ago
17:05:35 <elliott> <elliott> ais523_: I wonder what a Theo de Raadt donation request looks like.
17:05:35 <elliott> <elliott> "Give me some fucking money or I'll shut down the CVS repository again?"
17:05:47 <ais523_> hmm, is Linux GPLv2+, or GPLv2=? I can't remember
17:06:00 <pikhq> ais523: GPLv2= with some GPLv2+ parts.
17:06:17 <elliott> ais523_: I think GPLvN+ is *always* a mistake.
17:06:27 <elliott> Unless you really honestly trust the FSF to *never* screw up the GPL, ever.
17:06:30 <pikhq> With a GPLv3 migration *possible* if Torvalds sees an actual benefit in doing so.
17:06:41 <elliott> pikhq: linus has been pretty opposed to it
17:06:44 <ais523_> elliott: they've been pretty good at sticking to their own ideals so far
17:06:49 <elliott> pikhq: also, there are so many copyright holders that that would be almost impossible
17:06:58 <ais523_> and I trust them to do that, when I select the GPL as a license
17:07:02 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, but he's not unilaterally opposed to it — if it needed to happen, he'd make it happen.
17:07:05 <ais523_> proxied-GPLv3+ seems to make sense, anyway
17:07:11 <elliott> ais523_: I will never understand GPL users. :)
17:07:16 <elliott> pikhq: Very relevant: http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/sandals-not-flip-flops
17:07:20 <ais523_> (IIRC, it's the license Vorpal uses for his own projects)
17:07:23 <pikhq> elliott: And, yeah, doing so would probably involve *gigantic* labor.
17:07:51 <elliott> "My guess is that TiVo don’t actually do any DRM in the Linux kernel and that it’s all done in their proprietary user-space software. So, assuming they don’t use any GPL3 licensed code in that, the anti-DRM measures shouldn’t affect them."
17:07:52 <pikhq> Massive license auditing and rewriting everything without the ability to relicense.
17:08:03 <elliott> this is the kind of thing Gregor argues with me about :)
17:08:14 <ais523_> elliott: I've thought about licensing things under AGPL to make it simultaneously a) open-source, and b) incompatible with everything
17:08:29 <pikhq> TiVo signs the kernel; the anti-DRM measures would effect them.
17:08:42 <Gregor> ais523_: AGPL isn't considered OSS by the opensource.org folks.
17:08:50 <elliott> ais523_: AGPL is the absolutely correct direction for the GPL position. That's why I dislike it.
17:08:55 <ais523_> Gregor: hmm, I suppose not
17:09:23 <elliott> Gregor: [[The Open Source Initiative approved the GNU AGPLv3[3] as an open source license in March 2008 after Funambol submitted it for consideration.]]
17:09:29 <elliott> (or just didn't do any research)
17:09:44 <ais523_> elliott: picking a license is often pretty tricky, although I don't have objections to crazily-copyleft licenses like some people do
17:09:46 <elliott> http://opensource.org/licenses/agpl-v3.html
17:09:47 <Gregor> elliott: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa I could've SWORN they explicitly said no at some point.
17:09:47 <ais523_> elliott: thanks for the correction
17:10:02 <elliott> Gregor: Haven't we already established your memory is beyond useless? :P
17:10:20 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: GPL, plus a clause that you must disclose the source to anyone you allow to interact with the program via a network connection
17:10:24 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, but it's all I've got ;)
17:10:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "GPL, except if you make the software's function available over a network service -- e.g., imagine running an AGPL-licensed reddit clone -- you must offer the source"
17:10:38 <elliott> infinite memory and knowledge
17:10:40 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Affero General Public License. GPL plus a clause that you must disclose the source to anyone accessing it over the network.
17:10:41 <Gregor> elliott: What's Google?
17:10:52 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, so... it would't even be possible to use Linux with it?
17:11:03 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I too would give you a description, because you haven't gotten enough, but blah blah blah.
17:11:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Trying to explain better:
17:11:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Say some reddit clone software was licensed under the AGPL.
17:11:24 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: I think that would count as the OS rather than the application itself
17:11:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Since the function of a driver is arguably exposed to the network.
17:11:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You modify it to your delirious, insane wishes and start a website with it.
17:11:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You MUST offer your modifications as AGPL, unlike with the GPL.
17:12:06 * Gregor stabs anyone who calls *GPL "infectious"
17:12:12 <Vorpal> <ais523_> proxied-GPLv3+ seems to make sense, anyway <ais523_> (IIRC, it's the license Vorpal uses for his own projects) <-- only some of them.
17:12:15 <Gregor> If you don't like the license, DON'T USE IT, nobody's forcing you to.
17:12:28 <ais523_> elliott: here's an interesting anecdote: DCSS recently wanted to change its license from GPLv1 with one word changed, to a saner license (GPLv2+)
17:12:31 <Vorpal> ais523_, mostly due to lack of standard wording for the boilerplate
17:12:35 <ais523_> so they emailed every contributor asking if they agreed to the change
17:12:44 <ais523_> and I relicensed my contribution as public domain (as it was only two lines)
17:12:57 <pikhq> The AGPLv3 is less crazy than the AGPLv1, at least.
17:13:00 <ais523_> the and then hasn't happened yet
17:13:00 <elliott> ais523_: hmm, I'd have asked you to explicitly license it
17:13:08 <Vorpal> ais523_, ah, no punchline then
17:13:13 <elliott> ais523_: due to the uncertainty of public domain
17:13:31 <ais523_> elliott: actually, I did an "I release this code to the public domain, or if this is not legally possible, to the GPLv2+" with more legalesey language
17:13:33 <elliott> ais523: also, gah, I keep reading DCSS as DeCSS
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17:13:53 <ais523_> I thought it was a fun subversion on the usual public domain legality safeguard
17:14:14 <pikhq> elliott: BTW, if the FSF did crazy shit with the GPL, there would be some astounding lawsuits. The contract given with each and every copyright assignment requires them to make any licensing free software.
17:14:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, sorry, but I don't think there's a better word for stuff like that.
17:14:25 <ais523_> (I'm not entirely convinced my suggestion is copyrightable at all, as it was adding a couple of elements to a list)
17:14:45 <elliott> pikhq: By their definition of Free.
17:14:53 <pikhq> elliott: By the definition of Free in the contract.
17:15:05 <ais523_> <Wikipedia> * It should be noted that the "0" in the above definition need not correspond to what we normally consider to be the number zero. "0" simply means some object that when combined with an appropriate successor function, satisfies the Peano axioms. All systems that satisfy these axioms are isomorphic, the name "0" is used here for the first element, which is the only element that is not a successor. For example, the
17:15:06 <elliott> Gregor: The GPL *is* viral.
17:15:08 <pikhq> Which is their definition of Free, but not-mutable.
17:15:16 <ais523_> interpreted as the natural number 1, the symbol S(0) as the number 2, etc. In fact, in Peano's original formulation, the first natural number was 1.
17:15:17 <elliott> pikhq: It probably allows for a lot of crazy.
17:15:32 <elliott> ais523_: yeah but clearly peano was a moron
17:16:09 <Gregor> elliott: No one is forcing you to link against something under the GPL. You can always just NOT do that. Viruses do not give you a choice.
17:16:12 <ais523_> elliott: my guess is that it would be financial suicide for the FSF to ever release a GPLv4 which was anything other than a typically Stallmanesque strong-copyleft license
17:16:30 <ais523_> the word "viral" is pretty useless in this context
17:16:36 <elliott> ais523_: like the FSF have any money
17:16:52 <pikhq> ais523_: Gigantic lawsuit if it was non-free, and the FSF would cease to be if it were anything but a copyleft license.
17:16:53 <ais523_> the GPL gives you additional rights, which you can use only under certain defined conditions which involve making other things GPL too
17:16:55 <elliott> Gregor: And viral marketing doesn't force you to watch this thinly-veiled advert for Doritos Incarnadine Splodge, either.
17:17:05 <elliott> Gregor: Shut up and accept the loosened definition of the term.
17:17:28 <ais523_> elliott: what's your opinion on the wiki clause in the GFDL?
17:17:33 <elliott> ais523_: fun fact, the FSF offers unpaid internment^Winternships
17:17:37 <elliott> I wonder who on earth would want to.
17:17:50 <ais523_> I'm personally a supporter of it, but it's the sort of thing which might well scare people off
17:18:07 <elliott> ais523_: in my opinion, it's both a good thing because the GFDL is shitty and Wikipedia shouldn't use it, but also, it's the PERFECT evidence for why trusting the FSF to update the license on your code is a TERRIBLE TERRIBLE IDEA
17:18:36 <ais523_> elliott: well, to me, it's an example of how the FSF can be trusted to act much like the FSF
17:18:45 <pikhq> elliott: Which is why the GPLv3 *has* the damned proxy clause.
17:18:45 <ais523_> it was a sensible solution to an unforeseen issue with the license
17:18:53 <pikhq> Probably the best bit in it.
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17:19:19 <elliott> ais523_: what issue? "it sucks"?
17:19:24 <ais523_> pikhq: I like the one that lets you correct a licensing mistake within 30 days of being notified
17:19:37 <zzo38> Maybe the AGPL says only over a network, but I think it should be more general than that.
17:19:40 <ais523_> elliott: it's clearly designed for hefty books, not individual articles
17:20:00 <ais523_> so it works fine for, say, the C-INTERCAL manual (which I chose GFDL for after some thought), but not for Wikipedia's lists of Pokémon
17:20:05 <elliott> ais523_: it's bad there too :)
17:20:16 <ais523_> elliott: what would you recommend instead? CC-by-sa?
17:20:18 <elliott> ais523_: I'm really sad that the Pokémon articles got deleted
17:20:24 <elliott> ais523_: they were really good quality...
17:20:30 <elliott> ais523_: into lists, and then stripped down immensely
17:20:35 <ais523_> the issue wasn't that they weren't good quality, but that they were all basically identical
17:20:46 <zzo38> It should be apply to any software you communicate with, so if it is not running on your computer; a network doesn't matter.
17:20:57 <elliott> zzo38: err, any communication is a network
17:21:02 <elliott> even if it's just a network of two
17:21:17 <elliott> also, are you saying that someone who runs fortune(1) for you and snail mails you the output must be required to include its source code?
17:21:23 <zzo38> elliott: But the AGPL ought to apply to a kiosk computer as well.
17:21:35 <ais523_> elliott: fortune(1) is an example of something that isn't sensible to have under AGPL
17:21:43 <zzo38> (I am not saying that someone runs a program for you and mails you the result manually)
17:21:47 <ais523_> zzo38: hmm, an interesting point, you're entirely correct there if you consider the spirit of the license
17:21:58 <elliott> ais523_: indeed; i'd have to write my own if i wanted pithy homepage quotes :P
17:22:17 <ais523_> I suppose an AGPL-spirit kiosk computer should probably sell CDs with its own source code on at cost
17:24:02 <elliott> ais523_: but stallman could never afford that, it costs money!
17:24:20 <ais523_> elliott: who said it had to be RMS owning the kiosk?
17:24:48 <elliott> ais523_: well, he probably wants a copy of all GPL'd source just out of principle
17:24:57 <elliott> ais523_: I meant he could never afford a CD
17:25:02 <ais523_> a copy of all the GPL source in the world would be kind-of useful
17:25:10 <ais523_> and I'm pretty sure Stallman isn't that personally ppor
17:25:22 <ais523_> elliott: it'd mean you wouldn't have to be online to obtain programs
17:25:31 <ais523_> elliott: no, but if he was a tramp, I'd probably have heard of it
17:25:41 <elliott> ais523_: well, he doesn't own a house.
17:25:50 <elliott> unless that's changed recently
17:26:01 <ais523_> that sounds like the sort of thing he'd do via personal choice, actually
17:26:01 <zzo38> Also, let's say maybe it is a kiosk computer that sells programs on USB, or that receives files on USB and sells a printing service, or something. In that case, perhaps another way is to have choice to copy the source files to USB at no extra cost (only the cost of the service the kiosk is selling is paid).
17:26:14 <ais523_> zzo38: indeed, that would be a sensible option
17:26:20 <elliott> ais523_: he has no permanent residence
17:26:30 <pikhq> ais523: He's been unemployed for 25 years.
17:26:35 <ais523_> elliott: someone too poor to burn a CD wouldn't live in hotels
17:26:38 <ais523_> they're more expensive than renting
17:26:44 <elliott> ais523_: his name is lowercase
17:26:58 <pikhq> ais523: And his permanent residence is the office space MIT offers him for hysterical raisins.
17:27:00 <elliott> ais523_: djb, rms, esr (order deliberate)
17:27:08 <elliott> pikhq: oh, I didn't know that
17:27:19 <elliott> hmm, so Stallman's expenses are ... zero
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17:27:33 <elliott> presumably the office space has internet of some sort
17:27:40 <ais523_> elliott: that sounds like the sort of life I'd live if I had the choice, actually
17:28:10 <elliott> ais523_: the genius with no work ethic, how cliché
17:28:35 <pikhq> He's also gotten $500,000 from the MacArthur Fellowship, which is probably enough to cover food costs.
17:28:45 <ais523_> elliott: I dislike structured work, it ruins my productivity, among other things
17:29:17 <pikhq> Also, he doesn't usually stay in hotels; instead, he prefers to crash on someone's couch when he travels.
17:29:19 <elliott> ais523_: my current plan is to figure out a way to be able to have a "company" that's basically a lab doing esoteric stuff and somehow have it turn over a profit
17:29:23 <elliott> ais523_: and then hire everyone in here
17:29:30 <elliott> ais523_: gotta be possible, right?!?!
17:29:34 <ais523_> somehow turning a profit is the difficult part
17:30:01 <elliott> ais523_: maybe it could just sell VPSes/dedicated hosting, it's not like it wouldn't have a bunch of computers and a network pipe anyway
17:30:15 <elliott> admittedly, system administration is not exactly a barrel of fun
17:30:19 <ais523_> elliott: margins there are likely very tight
17:30:28 <elliott> ais523_: sure, but prgmr does it :)
17:30:32 <ais523_> and thus profits low unless you scale up massively
17:30:35 <elliott> and turns a healthy profit
17:31:00 <elliott> ais523_: meh, i've got enough time to figure out the fiddly details
17:31:11 <elliott> ais523_: could just get regular research grants on insane esoteric things :)
17:31:44 <ais523_> I was wondering about that
17:31:47 <pikhq> ais523: To keep a privately held business going you don't *need* massive profits.
17:31:51 <ais523_> but it might be kind-of hard to justify a grant
17:31:56 <pikhq> You just need to keep a balanced budget.
17:32:10 <ais523_> pikhq: indeed; but to actually gain enough money from it to make a living, you need massive profits before you pay your employees
17:32:16 <elliott> ais523_: hey, people in academia make a living off of doing silly things in haskell
17:32:22 <elliott> ais523_: I'm sure it's possible :P
17:32:26 <pikhq> (the key is "privately held"; get stockholders involved and everything goes to shit)
17:32:37 <ais523_> that sounds like the sort of life I'm destined to end up in unless I really try to make myself a different one
17:32:41 <pikhq> ais523: Paying employees is not part of your profits.
17:32:45 <pikhq> That's expenditure.
17:32:53 <elliott> ais523_: well, my backup plan is to just get a Ph.D. in CS and do research
17:32:58 <elliott> which doesn't sound all that awful
17:33:01 <ais523_> elliott: heh, that's what I'm doing atm
17:33:39 <elliott> ais523_: as far as I'm concerned, the idea would be to try and combine expenses that lead to profit with expenses that we want; e.g. buying a bunch of servers and sticking them in a data centre to sell VPSes on also lets them be used for any computation that might be needed
17:33:43 <elliott> (assuming they don't get full)
17:33:50 * pikhq wonders why people pay RMS to do speeches.
17:33:57 <ais523_> pikhq: because he's a celebrity
17:34:05 <ais523_> I mean, people pay /Tony Blair/ to do speeches
17:34:10 <elliott> "I think it is ok for authors (please let's not call them creators, they are not gods) to ask for money for copies of their works (please let's not devalue these works by calling them content) in order to gain income (the term compensation falsely implies it is a matter of making up for some kind of damages)." --Stallman the Pedant
17:34:22 <elliott> ais523_: people pay *George W. Bush* to do speeches
17:34:25 <pikhq> ais523: The thing is, his speeches are precomposed, set speeches that he's been giving for years.
17:34:27 <elliott> quick, name your favourite GWB speech
17:34:30 <pikhq> Every once in a while he makes a new one.
17:34:36 <elliott> now name your favourite GWB speech mistake
17:34:47 <ais523_> pikhq: yet people still pay for them
17:34:49 <pikhq> *That* is why I wonder why people pay him to do speeches.
17:35:07 <elliott> "Also, Stallman avoids use of a key card to enter the building where his office is.[71] Such a system would track doors entered and times."
17:35:44 <ais523_> that's an interesting point
17:35:49 <pikhq> Unsurprising, though.
17:35:53 <ais523_> people nowadays tend to do more tracking than a sane society would sensibly need
17:36:03 <ais523_> OTOH, that doesn't necessarily mean that avoiding it for the sake of it is sane either
17:36:13 <pikhq> Given that he doesn't own a cell phone for the same reason.
17:36:52 <elliott> ais523_: I think he's trying to avoid disclosing that he never leaves :)
17:37:03 <elliott> s/disclosing/reword the sentence better/
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17:43:48 <ais523_> wow, the kerning on this browser is so bad that sometimes later letters end up before earlier ones
17:43:58 <ais523_> and you can change where it happens by selecting bits of text
17:44:24 <elliott> configure fonts or something. it ... might help
17:44:35 <ais523_> yep, this is the crazy "gnome configured to act like KDE" public computer lab
17:48:22 <ais523_> hmm, an interesting topic being discussed on Reddit: glibc changed memcpy to increase the performance, and this changed its behaviour in the case where src and dest overlap (undefined behaviour for memcpy, you're supposed to use memmove there instead)
17:48:33 <ais523_> and the argument's about if they should have broken broken applications like that
17:50:36 <ais523_> relevant: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=638477#c31 (by Linus Torvalds, commenting on the valgrind output from Flash)
17:50:39 <Gregor> http://www.johnsphones.com/store/johns-phone-business/item45 <-- why is the "world's simplest cell phone" 80 friggin euros ...
17:50:54 <Gregor> Is it a joke? Is it just a bad idea?
17:51:21 <elliott> ais523_: I wonder what eglibc will do.
17:51:55 <ais523_> elliott: eglibc's designed for embedded systems, I imagine it wouldn't use an optimized memcpy because that makes no sense on its typical target platforms
17:52:04 <ais523_> so the issue probably wouldn't come up there
17:52:06 <elliott> ais523_: You do realise Debian and Ubuntu use eglibc, not glibc?
17:52:16 <ais523_> elliott: due to disagreeing with the maintainer of glibc
17:52:17 <elliott> ais523_: And that eglibc is just as designed for desktops as glibc?
17:52:24 <elliott> ais523_: It's not less optimised or anything...
17:52:27 <ais523_> the e stands for "embedded", though, doesn't it?
17:52:28 <elliott> ais523_: It just has embedded support AS WELL.
17:52:36 <elliott> ais523_: i.e. additional architectures and the ability to compile less.
17:52:47 <elliott> ais523_: They also sync with upstream. So it is entirely possible they will use this new memcpy.
17:53:02 <ais523_> optimising for embedded hardware's different from optimising for desktops, though
17:53:16 -!- Sgeo has joined.
17:53:17 <elliott> Series skipped (see here) as a sign of politeness from Nokia towards East Asian customers. See tetraphobia.
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17:53:43 <elliott> ais523_: listen, all the x86/x86-64 code is identical to glibc apart from maintenance, they just maintain it like usual
17:54:06 <elliott> ais523_: the *only* differences are (1) support for more embedded architectures and (2) slightly more modularity in what you can not compile
17:54:07 <ais523_> project name's a bit misleading, then
17:54:10 <elliott> (i.e. you can disable more components)
17:54:20 <elliott> ais523_: if you want to use glibc on an embedded platform, you use eglibc
17:54:29 <elliott> it's just that you use eglibc if you hate Drepper, too (and who doesn't?) :)
17:55:05 <pikhq> elliott: Presumably Red Hat.
17:55:18 <elliott> pikhq: I'm still not sure why Red Hat actually employ Drepper
17:55:44 <elliott> pikhq: as far as I can tell, there are plenty of viable glibc maintainers that aren't huge assholes, and all he *ever* causes is public dislike, which isn't good for Red Hat
17:56:49 <elliott> can i just say that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraphobia is the most hilarious thing ever?
17:57:13 <ais523_> hmm, someone later on in that thread said they'd run a script that patched the binary of Flash to replace memcpy with memmove everywhere
17:57:19 <ais523_> which is a pretty hilarious way to patch the bug
17:57:30 <ais523_> elliott: hmm, "most hilarious thing ever" has a lot of competition
17:57:35 <elliott> haha, Ulrich Drepper has NIH! Ulrich Drepper has NIH!
17:57:37 <elliott> [[I am currently working on a new set of binary utilities. They are meant to replace GNU binutils at least on my machine. The goal is to have all the commonly used functionality which is important on and for Linux available. Plus: fewer limitations (and bugs) when it comes to ELF file handling.
17:57:37 <elliott> GNU binutils suffer from supporting all kinds of binary formats and from what I consider mistakes in the development.]]
17:58:16 <elliott> "And for portability: this code is only meant for Linux. I don't give a rat's a** about non-ELF platforms. And platforms without the Linux API are not important either."
17:58:38 <ais523_> elliott: hey, I reimplemented binutils for gcc-bf
17:58:48 <ais523_> mostly because I was completely ripping out the format of everything
17:58:57 <elliott> ais523_: NIH is a good thing! it's just funny because he's probably a jerk about it
17:59:46 <elliott> "Stallman scored 1597 on the SAT (800 Math, 797 Verbal)."
17:59:50 <elliott> Stallman's good at standardised tests; discuss.
18:00:01 <elliott> lol: [[The article begins with : Richard Matthew Stallman (born March 16, 1953), often abbreviated "rms", and uses his homepage at stallman.org as a reference where he mentions : "Richard Stallman" is just my mundane name; you can call me "rms". Just because he refers to himself as "rms" does not mean it should be included, I think hes just trying to be friendly to visitors of his website. If publications or other reliable sources refer to hims a
18:00:01 <elliott> s "rms" then I agree it should be mentioned. --GateKeeperX (talk) 08:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)]]
18:00:05 <elliott> Wikipedia talk pages are hives of idiocy
18:00:44 <elliott> [[I think I saw this guy in a James Bond movie as a hacker. It was the one about Rupert Murdoch taking over the world by making China go to war with the UK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peacekeep (talk • contribs) 02:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)]]
18:00:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Jesus christ, I've been busy! :P
18:01:41 <ais523_> elliott: hmm, it wasn't Rupert Murdoch, but Mr. Carver (I can't remember his first name)
18:02:29 <elliott> ais523_: [[ * "Stallman recommends not owning a mobile phone,[69] as he believes the tracking of cell phones creates harmful privacy issues.[70] Also, Stallman avoids use of a key card to enter the building where his office is.[71] Such a system would track doors entered and times. For personal reasons, he does not actively browse the web from his computer; rather, he uses wget and reads the fetched pages from his e-mail mailbox.[70]"
18:02:29 <elliott> Can someone verify or present additional sources for these absurd claims? Some of the sources seem either falsified, out-of-context or just purely comical in nature. I find it hard to believe these were anything but bad jokes.76.67.111.164 (talk) 22:52, 2 May 2010 (UTC)]]
18:02:40 <elliott> Stallman: So weird, nobody can believe Wikipedia about him.
18:02:53 <ais523_> elliott: well, I don't have a mobile, but for a different reason
18:03:04 <elliott> [[I think I saw this guy in a James Bond movie as a hacker. It was the one about Rupert Murdoch taking over the world by making China go to war with the UK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peacekeep (talk • contribs) 02:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
18:03:04 <elliott> Nope, that was Ricky Jay, playing the character of Henry Gupta in Tomorrow Never Dies. Though they do share some superficial similarity. // Meneth (talk) 00:03, 16 December 2008 (UTC)]]
18:03:05 <ais523_> if you're reachable 24 hours a day, people try to reach you 24 hours a day
18:03:09 <elliott> I don't see the superficial similarity.
18:03:16 <elliott> ais523_: while you're sleeping?
18:03:29 <ais523_> elliott: apparently, based on conversations with other people with mobiles
18:03:32 <ais523_> (although not all that often)
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18:03:54 <elliott> ais523_: I think that is not very common :P Not unless you have a lot of time zone-ignorant or ... what's the w- nocturnal, friends.
18:04:08 <elliott> ais523_: I'd like a mobile that doesn't have a phone. (Although it'd need a good typing mechanism, somehow.)
18:04:33 <ais523_> elliott: it seems that the calls that you get around 4am or so are generally from drunk people
18:04:38 -!- augur has quit (Client Quit).
18:04:46 <ais523_> perhaps you have no friends who regularly get drunk?
18:04:47 <elliott> ais523_: or drunkard friends, i guess.
18:05:01 -!- augur has joined.
18:05:11 <elliott> ais523_: nobody really calls me much, I'm speaking from second-hand collected experience here
18:05:22 <elliott> which is obviously flawed and biased in numerous ways
18:05:39 <pikhq> elliott: I could find oodles of citations on stallman.org for those.
18:06:35 <elliott> the ideal wikipedia article is a single logical statement that is a theorem in almost all logical systems, and then a long list of references proving this in hundreds of them, published in respected journals
18:06:58 <Vorpal> <ais523_> elliott: it seems that the calls that you get around 4am or so are generally from drunk people <-- you can turn a phone off during the night. Or put it on silent.
18:08:06 <Vorpal> ais523_, I only ever get calls from family. SMS from everyone else who have my phone number. And never during night. Even when I forgot to turn it off during night (I usually do turn it off)
18:08:13 <ais523_> although there's increasing social pressure, nowadays, for phone owners to leave it on whenever they can
18:08:27 <ais523_> Vorpal: presumably, you're sensible enough to be careful in who you give your number to, rather than, say, posting it on Facebook
18:08:43 <Vorpal> ais523_, well, who cares about social pressure? I put it on offline mode during lectures for example
18:08:59 <ais523_> Vorpal: most people do, even if you and I mostly don't
18:09:01 <Vorpal> ais523_, I don't have facebook to begin with :P
18:09:07 <elliott> I find it hard to believe that ais523_'s friends are stupid enough to get annoyed at him for turning his phone off.
18:09:12 <Zuu> ais523, if anyone ever express that expectation, you just call them in the middle of the night ;)
18:09:14 <elliott> I imagine they're far more irritated that he has no phone at all :)
18:09:21 <Vorpal> elliott, my friends don't get annoyed from that either
18:09:25 <Vorpal> they do the same mostly
18:09:49 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. SMS is a great invention.
18:10:05 <Vorpal> elliott, no one I know uses MMS
18:10:11 <Vorpal> if that is what you mean
18:10:19 <Vorpal> elliott, then what is the replacement you suggest
18:10:38 <ais523_> elliott: I hardly have any friends, so it's mostly irrelevant
18:10:39 <elliott> Vorpal: also, SMS isn't cheap, it's grossly oversold; the cost of sending an SMS for the networks is 0; counting costs of infrastructure, it's, like, 0.001p
18:10:44 <Vorpal> elliott, everyone I know use SMS for communicating within the group of friends.
18:10:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Email is the replacement.
18:10:54 <Vorpal> elliott, uh. I get 5000 free / month on my plan.
18:11:01 <Vorpal> and that is a *data* plan mostly
18:11:09 <elliott> Vorpal: you're in Sweden :)
18:11:13 <ais523_> if you really need to say something to someone out-of-bound, use email
18:11:15 <elliott> ais523_: there's social pressure to respond quickly
18:11:19 <elliott> ais523_: also, agreed w/ emial
18:11:26 <elliott> ais523_: SMS is just limited email
18:11:27 <Vorpal> elliott, most I sent during a month: 78
18:11:31 <Vorpal> and that was one extreme case
18:11:39 <ais523_> "I texted you and you never replied!" is the sort of thing you overhear in corridors all the time
18:11:51 <ais523_> Vorpal: oh, over here, it's common for people to have long SMS conversations, IRC-style
18:12:04 <Vorpal> ais523_, well perhaps. But not on keypad phones I bet :P
18:12:26 <ais523_> Vorpal: even on keypad phones
18:12:27 <Vorpal> which is still very common
18:12:38 <pikhq> I've got unlimited SMS.
18:12:39 <ais523_> do you not know about predictive texting?
18:12:42 <elliott> Vorpal: you have no idea how fast people type on keypad phones
18:12:50 <elliott> their thumbs would like to secede from their bodies
18:12:54 <ais523_> basically, it picks only the number sequences that correspond to actual words
18:12:59 <elliott> and go somewhere with more freedom
18:13:04 <Vorpal> elliott, the dictionary certainly helps indeed
18:13:04 <ais523_> with a button to change between other words that happen to collapse to the same number sequence
18:13:11 <elliott> Vorpal knows what predictive texting is :P
18:13:12 <pikhq> Though it's probably overcharged. (I don't pay the bill, so I don't know)
18:13:29 <Vorpal> elliott, I use the dictionary. Means one key press per letter of the word
18:13:34 <elliott> ais523_: I had to get my mother to start to use predictive texting, it was painful watching her thumb slowly give up on life.
18:13:36 <Vorpal> unless other phones are more advanced
18:13:36 <elliott> Vorpal: = predictive texting
18:13:53 <Vorpal> elliott, it annoys me it can't complete the word if there is just one alternative
18:14:05 <Vorpal> like when you are writing a long one where the ending is more or less given at that point
18:14:11 <Vorpal> ais523_, not on my phone
18:14:16 <ais523_> oh, you mean tab-complete-like?
18:14:23 <ais523_> most words can be pluralised or changed to end -ing, etc
18:14:28 <ais523_> so there's nearly always at least two alternatives
18:14:52 <Vorpal> ais523_, well, fairly limited range. And it could complete up to the point of diverging
18:16:19 <ais523_> Vorpal: hmm, actually, the KDE file selection dialogs do that, and it's really annoying
18:16:23 <ais523_> because it breaks your muscle memory
18:16:31 <elliott> ais523_: ugh, I hate that dialogue
18:16:38 <ais523_> you should have to hit the equivalent of tab to move on
18:16:50 <Vorpal> ais523_, KDE file selection fails badly when I want to type the directory name in the list. to find it. It finds it. But doesn't select it
18:16:54 <Vorpal> if you know what I mean
18:17:11 <Vorpal> ais523_, and sure, tab would work
18:17:19 <elliott> ais523_: hmm, I think that for anything longer than a few words, taking a laptop out of your bag, opening the lid, clicking an email client and clicking Compose might actually result in a quicker message-sending time, due to the full-sized keyboard
18:17:21 <Vorpal> but that lacks from my phone
18:17:34 <Vorpal> elliott, depends on what phone
18:17:37 <ais523_> also, awesome feature of Kate: you can return-complete words even in plain-text documents
18:17:52 <elliott> Vorpal: any phone with a keypad
18:17:53 <ais523_> I think it looks for long words you've used more than once or twice, and adds them to an internal return-completion dictionary
18:18:00 <elliott> depends if you're superhuman or not
18:18:10 <Vorpal> elliott, n900 should manage fairly well though
18:18:14 <elliott> I'm a damn good iPhone typist now, after having fast-paced #esoteric'd with it for a lot of months
18:18:23 <elliott> Vorpal: err, it lacks a keyboard, right?
18:18:25 <ais523_> elliott: I couldn't reasonably type on a laptop while balancing it on my other hand
18:18:30 <Vorpal> elliott, n900 has slide out
18:18:34 <ais523_> and the mobile phone scenario doesn't assume the presence of a nearby desk
18:18:41 <Vorpal> so still slower than a laptop
18:18:58 <elliott> Vorpal: oh, too-small keyboards are worse than touchscreens
18:19:04 <elliott> they are probably the worst
18:19:12 <Vorpal> elliott, it has touchscreen as well
18:19:21 <Vorpal> elliott, yes so it works with gloves
18:19:21 <elliott> good luck typing well on a resistive, non-multitouch touchscreen
18:19:38 <elliott> Vorpal: good luck typing with gloves on any touchscreen at all ever even in the year 5 million...
18:20:29 <Vorpal> elliott, true. But you could still use it to dial :P when it is -15 C and a hard wind.
18:20:45 <Vorpal> to call about the bus having got stuck or something
18:21:24 <ais523_> elliott: there was a Slashdot submission about a new type of glove designed specifically to work on capacitative touchscreens...
18:21:25 <Vorpal> elliott, basically if you can't dial from the phone with your gloves on during the darkest period of the Swedish winter I'm not interested.
18:21:34 <ais523_> incidentally, whatever happened to styluses?
18:21:38 <Vorpal> elliott, for keypad, backlit keys are a must
18:21:56 <coppro> ais523_: they're lame, obviously
18:22:11 <Vorpal> ais523_, sure but they aren't that easy to get out in bad condition :P
18:22:19 <ais523_> coppro: well, I use them on touchscreens (but then, I don't own a mobile)
18:22:21 <Vorpal> iirc n900 has a stylus in it
18:22:26 <ais523_> it seems to make more sense than getting the screen greasy
18:22:49 <Gregor> They have capacitive styluses too.
18:23:09 <Vorpal> Gregor, indeed. But not having to fiddle with that to make a call is a big plus
18:23:21 <Vorpal> not all of us live in sunny climates :P
18:23:24 <ais523_> people use phones to make /calls/ nowadays?
18:23:47 <ais523_> well, I use landlines for that very occasionally
18:24:07 <ais523_> (I even have a reverse-charge payphone number, although it's rarely used due to the general absence of payphones)
18:24:20 <Gregor> They should rename EGLIBC to NonDrepperGLIBC
18:25:17 <Vorpal> ais523_, you don't make calls? Or SMS?
18:25:33 <Vorpal> and SMS with gloves on is tricky even on keypad
18:25:35 <Gregor> <ais523_> I have a perfectly good rotary phone!
18:25:38 <ais523_> Vorpal: I make calls on a landline occasionally, usually to other landlines
18:25:49 <ais523_> Gregor: touchtone, but relatively old
18:25:53 <Vorpal> ais523_, well.. I do it from my mobile every now and then
18:25:53 <Gregor> <ais523_> If it was good enough for 1901, damn it it's good enough for me!
18:26:15 <Vorpal> Gregor, probably it will last longer than my mobile :P
18:26:23 <ais523_> (non-smartphone) mobile phones are massively overpriced for what they do, I don't see why people are willing to pay for them
18:26:25 <Vorpal> build quality was better back then
18:26:37 <Gregor> ais523_: In the US, they're not.
18:26:45 <Vorpal> in Sweden they aren't that much
18:26:45 <Gregor> ais523_: They are however willing to lock themselves into long contracts ;)
18:26:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, only if you buy them from carrier
18:27:07 <Vorpal> you can buy that stuff separately
18:27:10 <Gregor> Vorpal: In the US, you buy them from the carrier :P
18:27:36 <Gregor> Vorpal: Hell, half our carriers don't even use GSM, and the ones that do are on a different band than the rest of the world, and they all have different 3G bands.
18:27:44 <Gregor> I'm on a non-GSM carrier *shrugs*
18:28:15 <ais523_> Gregor: the US phone situation looks insane from the UK, but I imagine vice versa as well
18:28:32 <Gregor> ais523_: I don't know anything about the UK phone situation :P
18:28:38 <ais523_> advertising feature genuinely used by a mid-sized mobile phone operator: if you top your phone up £10, you get £30 of credit
18:28:42 <Gregor> And the US phone situation IS insane.
18:29:02 <ais523_> Gregor: it's insane on both sides, but in completely different ways
18:29:06 <ais523_> (I'm aware of the US phone situation)
18:29:25 <Gregor> Anyway, I have a whoopdidoo smartphone :P
18:29:25 <ais523_> the UK situation, generally speaking, is that you get a phone independent of any contract, and get a SIM card, nowadays generally also independent of any contract
18:29:26 <fizzie> Finland tends to be somewhat pricey place when it comes to consumer electronics, but I don't think our dumbphones cost very much. You can get a reasonable basic phone for <30 EUR (< 25 GBP) from the store; at least a while ago buying any phones from the carrier was pretty rare. Er, except for the one-carrier-exclusive iPhone, of course.
18:30:04 <ais523_> in order to actually be able to make calls, you "top up" the phone by sending money to the owners of the SIM card; it used to be done at supermarkets and grocery stores, but nowadays it's often done via ATMs instead
18:30:17 <Vorpal> <ais523_> advertising feature genuinely used by a mid-sized mobile phone operator: if you top your phone up £10, you get £30 of credit <-- can you extract that somehow and then start a new cycle? :D
18:30:21 <ais523_> then that money can be spent to make calls or texts, at rather extortionate rates
18:30:36 <Vorpal> ais523_, aww. Their lawyers are too smart
18:30:40 <ais523_> of course, the amount of "credit" you have is just an arbitrary number, even if it's normally expressed as money
18:30:45 <Gregor> ais523_: So they're all pay-as-you-go, no monthly rate and/or contract plans? No unlimited plans?
18:30:54 <Vorpal> "and get a SIM card, nowadays generally also independent of any contract"
18:30:56 <ais523_> Gregor: I'm getting to that bit
18:31:01 <Vorpal> ais523_, how would that work?
18:31:10 <ais523_> now, generally speaking you can opt into all sorts of plans
18:31:18 <ais523_> Vorpal: the SIM card doesn't work until you pay the manufacturer
18:31:19 <Vorpal> some generic SIM card company?
18:31:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: A pre-paid thing, I believe.
18:31:28 <Gregor> Vorpal: There are lots of no-contract plans here too, just they come with a SIM card in a shitty phone rather than just a SIM card :P
18:31:35 <ais523_> and they're made via the individual phone manufacturers
18:31:52 <ais523_> so, typical phone plans would offer X in return for topping up at rate Y
18:32:05 <ais523_> e.g. you'd get 5000 free texts per month as long as you topped up at least £10 a weak
18:32:55 <elliott> <ais523_> it seems to make more sense than getting the screen greasy
18:33:09 <ais523_> also, unused credit tends to disappear after a certain length of time
18:33:16 <ais523_> elliott: nah, it just makes the text hard to read
18:33:42 <ais523_> hmm, I'll bbiab, changing computer
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18:34:12 <elliott> "Due to the configuration error GitHub's production database was destroyed then re-created."
18:34:30 <Vorpal> ais523_, no normal style contracts? Like mine, one year binding time, student-discount, free data traffic, but if you pass 2 GB / month it will be throttled to a rather lower speed. 5000 free SMS per month. Calls slightly more expensive than landline. 98 SEK / month, though 29 SEK until the end of the year (special offer)
18:35:18 <Vorpal> elliott, err.. They had no backup?
18:35:22 <elliott> <Vorpal> Here, like in all messages, I will be sure to demonstrate Swedish superiority with piercing accuracy to demonstrate how superior our technological economics is. I will pretend this is normal and act surprised at your backwards, non-Swedish nations when it turns out not to be.
18:35:25 <Vorpal> elliott, and what did it contain?
18:35:29 <elliott> Vorpal: they restored from a backup
18:35:42 <elliott> Vorpal: it contained... GitHub
18:35:46 <elliott> well, not the git repositories
18:35:49 <elliott> but all the fluff around them
18:35:55 <Phantom_Hoover> In other news, fate has smiled upon me and I got a new cardy thing.
18:35:56 <Vorpal> elliott, right. Could have been waaaay worse then
18:36:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Shall attempt to see if I can get MineCraft with it soonish.
18:36:07 <elliott> ais523: oleophobic wasn't referring to you
18:36:08 <fizzie> The SMS thing is also very crazy; "free data traffic" except if you want to send 140-character 7-bit messages, then it's not free.
18:36:09 <ais523> Vorpal: they exist, but they aren't very common
18:36:18 <elliott> ais523: the iPhone 3G S onwards use oleophobic screens, which means that fingerprints don't stick to them
18:36:21 <fizzie> There was this recent Nielsen study -- in the US, I think -- that girls in the [13, 17] age group send on average 4050 text messages per month; assuming 30 days of 6 hours of sleep (18 awake), that's 7.5 messages per hour.
18:36:29 <elliott> ais523: it just gets slightly grubby, and a single wipe gets them all off
18:36:31 <ais523> the sort of people who buy them are traditionalists
18:36:36 <Vorpal> elliott, actually I'm surprised your don't have something like that plan I mentioned. I would expect slightly more expensive. Say 2000 free SMS / month. and maybe 1.5 GB data
18:36:42 <Vorpal> and somewhat higher price
18:36:49 <Vorpal> but yes I would expect something along similar lines
18:37:04 <elliott> my iPhone contract has... 500 free texts
18:37:08 <elliott> and N free minutes for some N
18:37:12 <ais523> fizzie: that reminds me of a study a while ago, where it turns out that the average length of time people spending Facebook is now so high it's significant even if you average across the entire population of the word
18:37:21 <fizzie> Also the 7-bit SMS charset gets people killed.
18:37:22 <elliott> (I forget the exact amount)
18:37:56 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: No, at least in GSM networks it's a different encoding.
18:37:57 <Vorpal> okay that's quite expensive
18:38:11 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM_03.38
18:38:24 <Vorpal> elliott, also SMS uses unicode nowdays iirc?
18:38:34 <ais523> elliott: smartphone plans are generally saner than the pay-as-you-go dumbphone plans
18:38:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably for the iPhone. I didn't say 7-bit, fizzie did.
18:38:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes and does so by default since... years?
18:38:45 <elliott> ais523: but much more expensive
18:38:50 <ais523> the contract plans are saner than the pay-as-you-go ones, yet they're really unpopular for some reason
18:38:51 <elliott> ais523: I hate technology.
18:39:04 <ais523> elliott: well, you'd expect it to be more expensive as it's a much higher bandwidth requirement
18:39:22 <elliott> ais523: it costs something like twice as much as the residential broadband connectino
18:39:46 <elliott> ais523: see, e.g. Sweden :P
18:39:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: Only if your handset manufacturer bothers, which might not be the case for the cheapest possible phone.
18:39:47 <Vorpal> anyway, every carrier I checked with allows tethering in Sweden. But warns that due to technical issues it won't work with iphone.
18:39:57 <Vorpal> iirc in US they don't allow that
18:40:07 <elliott> Vorpal: The iPhone's tethering got nuked when the carriers decided they didn't want people using it.
18:40:13 <elliott> Vorpal: It's still in there, just not in the US.
18:40:19 <fizzie> Regarding "gets people killed", I was referring to http://gizmodo.com/382026/a-cellphones-missing-dot-kills-two-people-puts-three-more-in-jail though I guess it's more of a phone-software issue. Still.
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18:40:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, err handset? err?
18:40:29 <Sgeo> Awesome. Wifi works here but not next to my classroom
18:40:36 <elliott> Vorpal: AT&T's business model, you see, is "Dammit, our network sucks! I blame the iPhone users for trying to use the Internet, like they pay us exorbitant rates to do."
18:40:48 <elliott> Vorpal: "We can't upgrade it because it's NOT OUR FAULT, you're the ones trying to use it."
18:41:06 <pikhq> That's the business model for every Internet provider in the US.
18:41:24 <Vorpal> US telecommunication is insane
18:41:35 <Vorpal> so is Sweden. But in a different way
18:41:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, handset. If your phone can input only the characters in the mandatory GSM 7-bit alphabet, it probably doesn't much help if your network would in theory be able to support messages encoded in UTF-16.
18:42:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, err. I know my phone has an option for "use unicode" in some menu
18:42:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, but why do you call it handset, not phone?
18:42:34 <ais523> one of the US cellphone providers (I forget which) had an easily-accidentally-pressed button on their phone homepage which would try to access a data page and then charge you at ridiculous rates at data usage; if you asked them to cancel your data plan so that it wouldn't happen, pressing the button instead popped up a page saying you had your data plan turned off - over the Internet - then charged you for the bandwidth for that
18:42:36 <Vorpal> that is what I'm confused about
18:42:40 <ais523> I forget which, but it would fit with any of them
18:43:02 <ais523> Vorpal: is there any industry anywhere in the world that /isn't/ insane?
18:43:27 <Vorpal> ais523, "phone homepage"? Wouldn't that require a data plan to reach?
18:43:29 <Gregor> My Sprint 3G is faster than my home cable internet :P
18:44:18 <Vorpal> ais523, so you should be secure from that simply by not being able to reach it
18:44:23 <Gregor> Vorpal: Often they have a sort of whitelist of free pages.
18:44:26 <ais523> Vorpal: as I said, if you didn't have a data plan it reached a page saying you didn't have a data plan, then charged you for the data needed to reach it
18:44:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a common term. Cf. the Open Handset Alliance, the group who make mobile phones.
18:44:55 <Vorpal> ais523, but that would require you to open the browser on the phone first?
18:45:04 <fizzie> "A handset is any device that is held in the hand. However, in these days, the term handset describes a mobile phone device." (Telecom Dictionary)
18:45:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, hah. I shall start calling a screwdriver a handset :P
18:45:50 <ais523> Vorpal: indeed, but it was easy to do by accident
18:46:07 <Vorpal> ais523, also, couldn't you change the home page?
18:46:12 <ais523> Vorpal: it made a lot of money for the carrier, why was that not weird?
18:46:13 <fizzie> "A telephone transmitter and receiver combined in a single instrument." (OED)
18:46:18 <ais523> and I don't know the details to that level
18:46:25 <Vorpal> ais523, because it would scare away customers
18:46:25 <elliott> <ais523> Vorpal: it made a lot of money for the carrier, why was that not weird?
18:46:29 <Sgeo> Maliciousness deserves to be weird
18:46:42 <elliott> OED is one stroke away from QED
18:46:54 <elliott> Vorpal: it's not like phone companies have any karma to start with
18:47:03 <Gregor> fizzie: "Alternatively, the press could ask for banning knives from the homes of demonstrably stupid people." X-D
18:47:09 <fizzie> How's it going with WAP, anyway? Still alive?
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18:48:05 <fizzie> Apparently -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_Application_Protocol#Commercial_status -- not dead in Asia, despite some i-mode competition.
18:49:44 <Gregor> <WAP> I'm big in Japan.
18:50:51 <fizzie> Isn't that an Alphaville song?
18:51:36 <fizzie> Someone's .mod rendition was possibly my first-ever piece of tracker music I ever got: there was an ALPHAVIL.MOD on some floppy. (Or maybe .s3m.)
18:52:14 <elliott> Godzilla's big in Japan. Also, everywhere.
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18:56:11 <fizzie> Ooh, here's contents of the 8 floppies of Finnish-localized Excel 5 for Windows 3.1. There's an "asenna.exe", since fi:asenna is the second-person imperative form of en:install.
18:57:09 <fizzie> And MAGELINK.ZIP, very useful if you have two DOS computers in an IPX network and need to move data between them. It is good to keep all this important stuff.
18:59:05 <elliott> 14:16:58 <ais523> <elliott> ais523: can you *believe* rutian still exists? <--- I'd be quite surprised that nobody had unVMed it by now
18:59:16 <elliott> i have no idea what he was trying to say there
19:02:57 <elliott> fizzie: Switched to a non-tiling window manager yet? I need to adopt my opinions from *someone* and you're conveniently the last non-me person to talk.
19:04:00 <fizzie> elliott: I'm still Awesome, sorry.
19:04:07 <elliott> fizzie: More like LAMESOME.
19:04:12 <fizzie> It's the inertia of it.
19:05:31 <elliott> Vorpal: that little IP that I wiped every few months
19:05:46 <elliott> Vorpal: it hosted eso-std and other stuff.
19:06:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think I used it though. Except for looking at the web page
19:08:23 <elliott> Vorpal: I think you did, once.
19:08:29 <elliott> Aww, tusho.eso-std.org has not been archivated.
19:09:23 <Vorpal> elliott, surely you have a local backup?
19:09:43 <elliott> Vorpal: uhh, maybe on the iMac. somewhere.
19:09:53 <elliott> Vorpal: it held exactly one (1) blog post, once
19:10:20 <elliott> Vorpal: it was a (single-user) wiki with embedded code!
19:10:24 <elliott> Vorpal: and it edited in my editor!
19:10:29 <elliott> Vorpal: The way it did this was pure EVIL.
19:10:51 <elliott> Vorpal: Every page on tusho.eso-std.org had an "Edit" link on it, which linked to e.g. http://localhost:8080/edit?page=page-title.
19:11:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I ran a webserver locally that, upon loading /edit, looked at the page parameter, started my editor with /path/to/site/page-title.markdown, and then *redirected to whatever the browser said the Referer was*.
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19:11:29 <elliott> So I'd click it, my editor would appear, and the page would stay there. Ingenious! Horrible. But ingenious.
19:13:12 <elliott> It was a rather pointless hack, come to think of it.
19:13:22 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: and it edited in my editor! <-- which one?
19:13:35 <elliott> Vorpal: at the time I used TextMate, because Emacs on OS X was really irritating
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19:19:06 <elliott> hmm, what happened to n=foo in hostnames?
19:19:55 <Vorpal> elliott, turned into the more conventional ~
19:19:58 <Vorpal> elliott, some time ago
19:20:05 <Vorpal> probably around change to ircd-seven
19:22:24 <elliott> 16:41:36 --- topic: set to 'the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Oh god it smells of java.' by optbot
19:23:30 <elliott> 22:58:55 <optbot> fizzie: i think i can compile BF into it
19:23:30 <elliott> 22:59:09 <fizzie> optbot: BF into what? NURRR so confused.
19:23:30 <elliott> 22:59:09 <optbot> fizzie: lament!
19:23:50 <elliott> 23:00:35 <optbot> fizzie: it's sauna, bye for a while..
19:28:51 <elliott> Gah, plan9port doesn't seem to have a separated dial().
19:44:12 <olsner> this approximation of peach melba is quite tasty
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20:13:45 <elliott> "\0366\0/66\0/24\0/42\0177}
20:23:04 <elliott> olsner: my C program is slow! and broken!
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20:23:28 <olsner> elliott: you're doing it wrong
20:23:42 <olsner> write it faster, right it write
20:24:02 <elliott> olsner: in this case, my sin appears to be using write() to do things one char at a tim
20:24:25 <olsner> right, the downside of write, it doesn't do any buffering but translates to one syscall per call
20:24:55 <elliott> olsner: yeah, thankfully i can do this simply
20:24:58 <elliott> by simply having an output buffer
20:28:27 <elliott> olsner: for the record, I do not recommend C for scripting tasks
20:31:08 <elliott> olsner: but now it runs instantly!
20:31:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh. yes. probably :)
20:31:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: if it even is lisp!
20:31:49 <elliott> olsner: aniway O(0) is reddundant
20:32:05 <olsner> slightly faster than O(1)
20:32:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A Lisp-Smalltalk hybrid? (Note: Smalltalk is a good language despite Sgeo.)
20:32:15 <elliott> olsner: datz 1 cuz 1 x n = n
20:32:22 <elliott> olsner: datz 1 cuz 1 x n = 1
20:32:27 <elliott> olsner: i lernt dis in math scool
20:32:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Lisp-Induced Social Awkwardness Following an Abortive Attempt at Small Talk
20:32:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ^ language name (LISAFAAST for short)
20:33:22 <elliott> olsner: things I do recommend: storing your data files as part of the program
20:33:25 <Phantom_Hoover> So it'll use Smalltalk's OO-ness with Lisp's syntax and macros?
20:33:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Something like that! Although I actually like syntax a bit... but nothing an editor can't be a genius about, so no syntax-changing macros or anything. (Lisp-style macros are fine.)
20:34:01 <elliott> It's all in the clouds, as they say. Do they say that?
20:34:33 <olsner> elliott: yep, it's teh win, at least if you have the data in a form you can use right away and the data doesn't require relocation
20:35:05 <olsner> though I wonder if that relro thingy allows relocated data to be shared between processes
20:35:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I was reading that nomad minecraft blog. Looking at the map of the first 20 days. :D 848x16880 pixels Yes that is very very tall
20:35:55 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, hmm, so you'd define a new read function for new syntaxes?
20:36:18 <elliott> Vorpal: must be a huge save :)
20:36:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Or just not have new syntaxes?
20:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but you can't not use Lisp syntax for everything!
20:36:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean, editors that you can click any part of the program and get docs about them and cross-reference them and... is the whole point of all this.
20:36:58 <Vorpal> elliott, well, 6.1 MB png iirc
20:36:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I may just use Lisp syntax for everything :)
20:37:07 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway that was 20 days into it
20:37:25 <Vorpal> elliott, well. Yes. To some degree. It is not nearly as wide as my save though
20:37:31 <elliott> hmm, rand() is automatically seeded on a modern system, right?
20:37:58 <Vorpal> http://towardsdawns.blogspot.com/2010/10/recap-first-20-days.html
20:38:06 <Vorpal> he put it on megaupload
20:38:16 <Vorpal> so direct link to map would be impossible
20:38:51 <elliott> lines.c:183889:79: warning: trigraph ??! ignored, use -trigraphs to enable
20:38:53 <elliott> olsner: THIS IS GOING GREAT
20:39:15 <olsner> elliott: trigraphs!? wtf are you doing?
20:39:25 <elliott> olsner: it just so happens that my data strings include "??!"
20:39:28 <elliott> olsner: which is, as it happens, a trigraph
20:39:34 <elliott> so gcc... warns me about it
20:40:20 <olsner> haha, so when you compile on a compiler that silently supports trigraphs, you'll have your data corrupted :)
20:40:54 <pikhq> elliott: foo??!??! exit(1); // Gotta love the WTF operator.
20:41:21 <olsner> I do hope pikhq only knew that because he looked it up after reading elliott's line
20:41:23 <elliott> olsner: i could just escape them, but fuck that
20:42:21 <pikhq> I have used trigraphs for insanity.
20:42:24 <elliott> lines.c:103227: warning: left-hand operand of comma expression has no effect
20:42:49 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Digraphs are much much better.
20:42:52 <elliott> I... do not understand this.
20:43:01 <olsner> pikhq: stupid me, I should've expected as much from someone #esoteric...
20:43:08 <pikhq> (they are only handled during tokenization)
20:43:26 <elliott> does gcc do digraphs by default?
20:44:04 <fizzie> elliott: "If rand is called before any calls to srand have been made, the same sequence shall be generated as when srand is first called with a seed value of 1."
20:44:28 <olsner> you know what, you could write (or find) a silly utility that converts binary data to elf files directly
20:44:55 <olsner> or at least convert everything to reliable data like \xXX or list of decimals :)
20:45:14 <elliott> olsner: -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 79M Nov 15 20:44 lines.c
20:45:21 <elliott> olsner: I think anything that is more reliable would also be FAR TOO FUCKING BIG
20:45:38 <pikhq> olsner: What, like stick the binary data as a symbol in there?
20:46:06 <elliott> *bp++ = ((*ip >> 6) & 7) + '0';
20:46:06 <elliott> *bp++ = ((*ip >> 3) & 7) + '0';
20:46:15 <elliott> someone plz tell me why this doesn't convert to a valid octal escape sequence
20:46:21 <elliott> i'm dumb enough that my mind is broken
20:47:04 <olsner> is ip a signed type? or even "char"?
20:47:18 <elliott> i should probably make it unsigned
20:47:19 <olsner> by default that's signed on gcc
20:47:21 <fizzie> What *do* you get into bp, then, if not a valid?
20:47:30 <elliott> fizzie: \7xx and other shit
20:47:45 <olsner> otoh, the &7 should pretty much fix that
20:48:06 <elliott> olsner: it now appears to work fine
20:48:13 <elliott> *bp++ = ((*ip >> 3) & 7) + '0';
20:48:21 <elliott> of course, gcc doesn't exactly process the file fast.
20:48:37 <elliott> olsner: in fact, it would be like 500x quicker to do this at runtime, but THAT WOULD REQUIRE PARSING A FILE
20:48:41 <olsner> you can probably just pre-create a static elf header with the right symbol name, and replace the size of that symbol with the actual size from a binary
20:48:47 <elliott> also, my binary would be less than 70 megs
20:48:57 <fizzie> olsner: Well, right-shifting signed, negative numbers is implementation-defined, and could sign-extend, leading to 7s in the first number, instead of zero-extending it properly.
20:49:38 <elliott> olsner: I could be pragmatic and not include lines.c in the main C file and just link it separately
20:49:54 <elliott> (Note: I will have to do this really soon or I shall go insane.)
20:50:16 <pikhq> "[...] I shall go insane."
20:50:33 <olsner> elliott: well, that's why, right there
20:50:42 <elliott> haha lines.c crashes emacs for a bit
20:50:59 <olsner> at the same time you start compiling it separately you can just as well fix that binary-file magic
20:51:16 <elliott> olsner: I could just write an actual parser.
20:53:55 <fizzie> elliott: It certainly does seem to enable digraphs by default:
20:53:56 <fizzie> $ echo 'int foo(int a<::>) <% return a<:42:>; %>' | gcc -xc -c -o test.o - && echo okay
20:54:32 <elliott> fizzie: X_X even with -std=c89
20:54:38 <elliott> because digraphs are a c99 feature
20:55:05 <fizzie> <stdin>:1: error: expected ‘;’, ‘,’ or ‘)’ before ‘<’ token
20:55:05 <fizzie> <stdin>:1: error: expected identifier or ‘(’ before ‘%’ token
20:55:05 <olsner> hmm, there is: http://tigcc.ticalc.org/doc/gnuasm.html#SEC97B in gas - perhaps a bit of global inline assembly would be the perfect way of embedding that binary file
20:56:08 <fizzie> That could work, if you just add a label and an extern-declaration if you're going to refer to whatever you're incbin'ing.
20:56:22 <fizzie> (Label in the inline asm before .incbin, that is.)
20:56:45 <elliott> olsner: doesn't split it up
20:57:41 <olsner> elliott: you need to split it up?
20:57:49 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, also. I demand that all components of Mitosis be biologically-named.
20:58:21 <Gregor> Also they should all end in "osis"
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21:00:23 <olsner> elliott: ok, maybe you should just go ahead and write that parser
21:01:17 <elliott> olsner: it just happens to output C
21:01:25 <elliott> hi ais523, I'm compiling a 70 meg c file with gcc
21:02:50 <ais523> elliott: with or without optimisation?
21:03:03 <elliott> ais523: note: the majority of the 70 megs is a big array of strings
21:03:22 <ais523> my experience with compiling ick is that large files needed to be split up
21:03:39 <ais523> in order to avoid thrashing on occasion
21:04:11 <ais523> this was with -O2, which is much the same as -Os optimization-difficulty-wise
21:04:15 <elliott> ais523: can't really, in this case. I should just parse it at runtime, but where's the fun in that? :)
21:04:22 <ais523> (incidentally, why does -O1 even exist? what purposes are there for using it?)
21:04:29 <ais523> also, do you have -fmerge-strings on? and would it help?
21:04:30 <elliott> ais523: btw, the non-70 megs is just a few lines of actual C
21:04:40 <elliott> ais523: -fmerge-strings... does that merge identical substrings or something?
21:04:41 <olsner> elliott: if there isn't a lot of code involved you could output assembly of course, might be less gruesome to compile afterwards
21:04:54 <ais523> I can't remember if it's on by default or not
21:04:55 <elliott> ais523: it *might* help, but not immensely; also the thrashing would be insane
21:05:01 <elliott> I doubt it's on by default
21:07:46 <ais523> ah, it's -fmerge-constants
21:07:51 <ais523> and it's on by default at -O1 and higher
21:09:29 <Vorpal> <elliott> fizzie: groan <-- why groan about srand()
21:09:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:09:52 <elliott> and i have to pass it a seed
21:10:03 <elliott> which involves using the clock or someth'
21:10:14 <Gregor> time(NULL) + getpid() /* OH NOOOOOSE */
21:10:23 <Vorpal> <elliott> olsner: -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 79M Nov 15 20:44 lines.c <--- what *is* that?
21:10:26 <elliott> Gregor: ugh it's like the holocaust
21:11:14 <olsner> Vorpal: C code, 79MB of it
21:11:17 <fizzie> In case there's any amateur #esoteric historians, here's a logfile I just ran across from Dec 7th 2002 to Jan 3rd, 2003; it's the one file that wasn't in that "old logs from fizzie" set in Gregor's log-repo. http://zem.fi/~fis/esoteric-2002-12-fizzie.txt
21:11:23 <Vorpal> olsner, yes. But how can you get that much
21:11:33 <fizzie> (It's from the system I had my IRC on before I moved it to from where the Gregor repo logs start from.)
21:11:36 <olsner> you generate it, obviously
21:11:45 <Vorpal> olsner, what does the file represent?
21:11:49 <olsner> that's the only sane way to get properly insane amounts of code
21:12:09 <elliott> Gregor: <fizzie> In case there's any amateur #esoteric historians, here's a logfile I just ran across from Dec 7th 2002 to Jan 3rd, 2003; it's the one file that wasn't in that "old logs from fizzie" set in Gregor's log-repo. http://zem.fi/~fis/esoteric-2002-12-fizzie.txt
21:12:26 <elliott> Vorpal: it represents happiness
21:12:26 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, I was already highlighted what with my name appearing in his message.
21:12:35 <elliott> Gregor: But it had 's after it!
21:13:19 <Vorpal> elliott, you are being unintentionally unhelp you know
21:13:23 <ais523> fizzie: was clog logging then?
21:13:26 <Vorpal> elliott, what does that code do?
21:13:30 <elliott> ais523: clog started in 2003
21:13:33 <Gregor> fizzie: I already have this log under the name "more-days.log"
21:13:47 <Vorpal> elliott, .....................................................................................................
21:13:48 <elliott> Gregor: <fizzie> I assumed those were LESS days.
21:14:03 <fizzie> Gregor: The file size was so big, I didn't look at it.
21:14:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:15:09 <ais523> fizzie: not even with head(1)?
21:15:17 <ais523> or something like less(1) that can load the file lazily?
21:15:24 <fizzie> ais523: I don't have it here locally, I was just looking at his web hg thing.
21:16:04 <Gregor> Mind you, this file is an incredible 220K :P
21:16:23 <Gregor> If your browser supports gzip, it's probably 1/10th that in bandwidth.
21:17:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, turns out my computer budget was considerably larger than I thought.
21:17:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What is it?
21:18:02 <fizzie> Gregor: That's like over half a C64 floppy.
21:18:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'll totally get on it as soon as I get this code working.
21:18:27 <elliott> strlen(foo[n]) for "char *foo[]" should work... properly, right?
21:18:33 <elliott> as in not return inexplicably more...
21:18:39 <fizzie> Or is it in fact over whole? I guess those were 170k single-sided things.
21:18:48 <ais523> hmm, I typically spend around £400 on computers
21:19:07 <ais523> $799 is IIRC a bit more than that
21:19:19 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: why are you buying computers in dollars?
21:19:43 <ais523> oh, £799 is quite a bit more than $799
21:19:56 <Phantom_Hoover> £799 is basically the "if you go over this, GET RID OF EVERYTHING".
21:20:14 <ais523> personally, I'd choose to spend rather less than that
21:20:20 <ais523> but it really depends on what you want from a computer
21:20:44 <fizzie> ₤799, if it existed still, would be quite a bit less.
21:20:51 <fizzie> (Assuming ITL for the symbol.)
21:21:04 <elliott> ais523: well, Phantom_Hoover is building his own desktop and has, inexplicably, delegated the task to me
21:21:13 <elliott> ais523: presumably based on my prior happy customer or just my innate charm
21:21:19 <elliott> (the task = component selection)
21:21:28 <elliott> so he gets what he gets and if it includes a nuclear power station, so be it
21:21:55 <elliott> if you do "cc -Os foo.c -o foo"
21:21:58 <elliott> does it know that everything is static?
21:22:35 <fizzie> You can stick in that -fwhole-program just in case.
21:22:57 <fizzie> Though one would think that it'd be smart enough to grok it's going to link it to a finished product.
21:23:16 -!- optbot has joined.
21:23:16 -!- optbot has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric?C=M;O=D | interesting error.
21:23:22 <Phantom_Hoover> (This is the same as the Japanese and aviation friends.)
21:23:55 <elliott> FORMERLY KNOWN AS "OERJAN'S TERRIBLE PUNS"
21:24:00 <elliott> AND ALSO FORMERLY KNOWN AS "OTPBOT"
21:24:12 <elliott> -- THE NOT QUITE COMPLETE YET --
21:24:28 <elliott> Ladies and gentlemen, thank you, and may we always live in an era with more than one babble bot to talk to.
21:24:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I haven't re-added that yet :P
21:24:40 <elliott> In fact fungot's babble is a knockoff of optbot's.
21:24:42 -!- optbot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:25:41 <elliott> hmm, do fork()'d processes share stdout?
21:25:46 <elliott> and if so, can their output get mingled? I would guess yes
21:26:09 <elliott> I really regret doing this in C...
21:26:13 <elliott> Vorpal: and that's what lines.c is
21:26:18 <elliott> Vorpal: everything ever said in #esoteric that clog caught.
21:26:29 -!- fizzie has quit (Quit: jumpin' jumpin').
21:26:34 -!- fizzie has joined.
21:26:43 -!- fungot has joined.
21:26:50 <fizzie> Speaking of terrible bots...
21:26:54 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: i've heard srfi-27 is " sources of random content of the array.
21:28:11 <pikhq> elliott: fork()'d processes share all file descriptors, including stdin/stdout/stderr.
21:29:48 <elliott> hmm, what's the simplest way to get a random number in non-bash?
21:30:04 <fizzie> File descriptors (well, assuming no FD_CLOEXEC flags) even survive over execve; irssi has that funky "re-exec() a new binary without disconnecting" thing.
21:32:28 <fizzie> Probably depends on what you want to depend on.
21:33:44 <elliott> Vorpal: I decided that parsing files was for fuckheads.
21:33:52 <elliott> Note: I have since become a fuckhead.
21:33:59 <Vorpal> elliott, you had to parse it to turn it into C?
21:34:07 <elliott> Vorpal: well yes, but that was ... easier
21:34:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Primarily due to having a poor grasp of LaTeX at best.
21:34:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you type shit
21:34:19 <elliott> and then you use the keys.
21:34:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, in minecraft: if you *do* come across ice, how do you get it in your inventory? I heard you could get water into nether this way so...
21:38:09 <elliott> hmm, can dc output a random number?
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21:39:18 <pikhq> elliott: Well, you can implement a PRNG in it...
21:39:28 <Vorpal> elliott, what about reading /dev/urandom ?
21:39:41 <Vorpal> elliott, tr to strip everything but digits
21:39:52 <Phantom_Hoover> What's the difference between /dev/random and /dev/urandom?
21:40:10 <Vorpal> the documented one. Which is that urandom will not block.
21:40:18 <Vorpal> due to how it is implemented
21:42:47 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: /dev/random will wait until there's enough entropy to give a true-random number (although a friend of mine at University semi-reliably informs me that it overestimates how much entropy it has); /dev/urandom will substitute a cryptosecure random number if there isn't enough entropy for a true-random one, so it always returns instantly
21:43:03 <ais523> the result is that for basically anything, /dev/urandom is good enough and the one you should use
21:43:51 <elliott> ais523: in fact, even for crypto purposes, /dev/urandom is preferable
21:43:58 <elliott> I know this because I READ IT!
21:43:59 <ais523> it increases it a small amount whenever it mixes in a random source
21:44:06 <ais523> elliott: I wouldn't be surprised at that
21:44:17 <ais523> although, /dev/random is no worse than /dev/urandom apart from being substantially slower
21:44:44 <pikhq> Unless you have a gigantic cluster of entropy generators on your computer.
21:45:02 <pikhq> Say, replacing the state of Kansas with a set of Geiger counters.
21:45:45 <ais523> pikhq: that sounds like overkill
21:48:49 <elliott> what do freenode's pings look like?
21:49:59 <ais523> hmm, it only pings if you don't talk for a while
21:50:07 <ais523> IIRC, though, it's PING :server
21:50:17 <ais523> where server is the name of the server you're connected to
21:50:33 <ais523> although that could have been a different ircd, it was so long since I checked that
21:52:27 <ais523> ugh, seems loggic didn't log pings, I checked
21:52:31 <ais523> (it logged everything /else/...)
21:55:18 <Vorpal> elliott, TNT canons in minecraft look fun
21:56:07 <olsner> pachelbel's canon in TNT, that does sound a bit dangerous
21:56:49 <Vorpal> olsner, also argh: why it is a good piece, why do people think of that every time someone days canon. There are many others.
21:57:41 <Gregor> Because it's olde and Bach liked it.
21:58:33 <Gregor> And in spite of the fact that it's an obscenely repetitive piece of garbage (even for a canon), hey, Bach liked it :P
22:01:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't have any idea how to actually get ice, except by trickery.
22:02:41 -!- Sasha has joined.
22:04:49 <fizzie> As for random numbers, you can take them out of awk, with something like awk 'BEGIN{print int(16*rand());}' < /dev/null for an integer in the [0, 15] range. I'm sure there's something simpler too, and I haven't checked if that works for plain-POSIX awk.
22:05:28 <fizzie> (Or the random devices, of course.)
22:06:00 <elliott> fizzie: rand()*BIG isn't very well-distributed though.
22:07:54 <fizzie> "od -An -N3 -i /dev/urandom" gives you a decimal integer in the range [0, 2^24-1], with some whitespace in front; no messing around with uglily filtering only digits out of the random bytes.
22:08:41 <fizzie> "od -An -N4 -tu4 /dev/urandom" will give one in [0, 2^32-1].
22:09:30 <elliott> fizzie: Now get me one in [0, 1728038] :P
22:09:39 <elliott> I wish dc just had a random instruction.
22:09:43 <fizzie> Just take the modulo, it's well-enough distributed.
22:10:01 <fizzie> I assume you have something that can compute. :p
22:12:13 <fizzie> echo `od -An -N8 -tu8 /dev/urandom` 1728038%p | dc
22:12:20 <fizzie> That seems like reasonably workingy thing.
22:12:23 <elliott> TOPIC #esoteric :156 :is :unimplemented :145 :is :unimplemented :1263442 :save:args :165 :is :unimplemented :156 :is :unimplemented :stack :empty :155 :is :unimplemented :empty :stack :155 :is :unimplemented :145 :is :unimplemented :156 :is :unimplemented :164 :is :unimplemented :145 :is :unimplemented :165 :is :unimplemented :156 :is :unimplemented :155 :is :unimplemented :empty :stack :155 :is :unimplemented :145 :is :unimplemented :156 :is :un
22:12:23 <elliott> implemented :164 :is :unimplemented :145 :is :unimplemented :3
22:12:25 <fizzie> Except +1 since you wanted that range.
22:12:44 <elliott> fizzie: Actually not +1 there.
22:13:01 <fizzie> Oh, so you want [0, 1728038) then.
22:13:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: LaTeX is a macro package on top of TeX. TeX itself is very imperative and layout-concerned. LaTeX is more semantic.
22:13:11 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah. Or something.
22:13:50 <elliott> ; n=`{echo `{od -An -N8 -tu8 /dev/urandom} $linecount % p | dc}
22:13:51 <elliott> stack empty 8846169905319014834
22:14:21 <fizzie> Sounds like an empty $linecount there, but who knows.
22:14:45 <elliott> ; n=`{echo `{od -An -N8 -tu8 /dev/urandom} $linecount'%p' | dc}
22:14:45 <elliott> 543812 156 is unimplemented 145 is unimplemented 543812
22:14:55 <elliott> ; echo `{od -An -N8 -tu8 /dev/urandom} $linecount'%p'
22:14:55 <elliott> 1867614512691035130 1728038%p lines%p
22:15:38 <elliott> fizzie: sed $n'p;'$x'q;d' <lines
22:15:41 <elliott> fizzie: What could go wrong!
22:16:24 <elliott> Does *not* die with the shell script it's started from.
22:16:28 <fizzie> Anyway, with -N8 -tu8 that takes a random number in the [0, 2^64-1] range, so the bias with modulo-1728038 will be that some lines are taken with a probability of 0.00000057869097786042607 and some with 0.00000057869097786048028, while they should be uniformly 0.00000057869097786044057.
22:17:49 <fizzie> Both are within 0.00000000000000000004 of the proper probability, so...
22:18:33 <fizzie> (I wouldn't be surprised if some "od"s would find it difficult to work with 64-bit numbers, though.)
22:18:38 -!- digimunk has left (?).
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22:28:32 <ais523> elliott: <dsies quoting OpenBSD> Thank you for your OpenBSD Order! In case of problems or questions about this order, please contact austin@openbsd.org Order number 2010/11/15-10:40:25-20640: Your order currently is: USD $20.00 [DON] DONATION to the OpenBSD Project Total: USD $20.00 + Shipping.
22:28:45 <ais523> since when did donations charge shipping?
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22:30:23 <pikhq> There are still 336 $10,000 bills in circulation. :D
22:30:48 <pikhq> (well, at least as far as the US Treasury knows)
22:32:43 <ais523> I doubt people would exactly circulate a $10,000 bill
22:33:25 <pikhq> Yes, yes, you'd sell it at auction instead.
22:33:35 <pikhq> Still legal tender.
22:33:59 <ais523> "legal tender" has a very specific meaning
22:34:01 <fizzie> ais523: The paypal donation link at openbsd.org/donations.html has "&no_shipping=1" in the URL; their own custom order system (which is primarly meant if you want to combine a donation and a regular order of openbsd fluff) probably just can't handle such fanciness.
22:34:10 <ais523> it turns out, for instance, that Scottish currency is not legal tender in Scotland
22:34:29 <pikhq> There is no legal tender in Scotland.
22:34:50 <ais523> fizzie: I thought it would be something like that, but it's still hilarious
22:34:54 <pikhq> In the US, federal reserve notes are legal tender, even if they *were* issued over a century ago.
22:35:07 <ais523> (legal tender is something that you have to accept to settle a debt, if it's of the right value)
22:35:35 <pikhq> (I know. $10,000 bills are legal tender.)
22:35:47 <pikhq> (and worth more than face value besides)
22:37:01 <ais523> pikhq: in the UK, the Royal Mint let people pre-order £5 coins nowadays, on the basis that they nearly always end up being worth more than face value
22:37:19 <ais523> they make a profit on them too, on the basis that the materials for them cost less than £5 and they basically never end up in general circulation
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22:37:29 <ais523> thus it doesn't screw up inflation or anything like that
22:37:56 <pikhq> Are £5 coins just commemorative releases or something?
22:38:16 <ais523> (presumably, they aren't legally allowed to sell them for any value other than £5)
22:40:06 <pikhq> Closest the US has to that is the series of bullion coins.
22:40:39 <pikhq> Which are worth significantly more than their face value as raw materials alone.
22:40:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, have I previously professed my utter bafflement at MathML?
22:41:39 <pikhq> For instance, the American Buffalo coin has a face value of $50. And is about $1510 worth of gold.
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22:42:49 <pikhq> I don't think they're actually legal tender though, in spite of being made by the US Mint.
22:43:17 <elliott> <ais523> (legal tender is something that you have to accept to settle a debt, if it's of the right value)
22:43:19 <ais523> pikhq: you'd be insane to /not/ accept one to settle a $50 debt...
22:43:31 <pikhq> Nope, they are *actually* legal tender for their face value.
22:43:31 <elliott> ais523: please tell me that this means in Scotland, you could refuse to accept Scottish money to settle a debt
22:43:59 <elliott> "Okay, sir, I have your money!" "Bugger off." "But I want to clear my d-" *slam*
22:44:02 <ais523> elliott: presumably, you wouldn't be able to actually /claim/ on the debt if you'd repeatedly rebuffed attempts to pay you
22:44:10 <ais523> the courts tend to look down on that sort of thing
22:44:17 <pikhq> ais523: Not common law. ;)
22:45:47 <elliott> <Elemir> 01:29:18]<srm> 9965 GNU, an asteroid named after the GNU Project
22:45:47 <elliott> <Elemir> [01:29:53]<kfx> I hope that's the one that hits earth and extinguishes all life
22:45:47 <elliott> <Elemir> [01:30:03]<kfx> the last words on my dying lips will be "I told you so"
22:46:19 <ais523> there's an asteroid named after GNU?
22:46:31 <elliott> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9965_GNU
22:46:34 <elliott> 9965 GNU is a C-type main belt asteroid. It orbits the Sun once every 3.76 years.[2]
22:46:34 <elliott> Discovered on March 5, 1992 by Spacewatch, it was given the provisional designation "1992 EF2". It was later renamed "GNU" after the GNU project, whose software is important to academic computing.[3]
22:46:38 <elliott> Other free-software-related asteroid names:
22:46:56 <elliott> ais523: there's so many asteroids that they practically give away the names for free :)
22:48:22 <ais523> they must be rather short of inspiration
22:48:29 <ais523> is there an asteroid called Microsoft?
22:48:52 <elliott> ais523: there are two pest insects named after Bush and Cheney IIRC, but it was meant as a homage :(
22:49:55 <ais523> elliott: four were named at the same time, three after prominent Republicans, and one after Darth Vader
22:50:14 <elliott> ais523: I know the Bush/Cheney ones were confirmed to be a homage, though
22:50:21 <elliott> at least, that's what they said
22:50:32 <elliott> they could be lying for obvious reasons
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22:53:17 <fizzie> There are quite a few dinosaur species up there, too; though I guess that's a sensible name for a big thing.
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22:55:28 <fizzie> And then there's that whole set of consecutively 9617 Grahamchapman, 9618 Johncleese, 9619 Terrygilliam, 9620 Ericidle, 9621 Michaelpalin and 9622 Terryjones.
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22:56:44 <fizzie> Spacewatch has also discovered and named the 9548 Fortran; maybe we should petition for Brainfuck or Befunge or something next?
22:57:22 <ais523> Brainfuck would be a great asteroid name
22:59:49 <elliott> ais523: Oracle appear to be spamming everyone who has ever given their email to Sun
22:59:51 <elliott> Oracle University UK would like to extend a warm welcome to you!
22:59:51 <elliott> We are doing our very best to ensure the transition from Sun Learning Services to Oracle University goes as smoothly as possible. In order to facilitate this transition we would like to provide you with some basic information to help you.]]
23:00:11 <fizzie> Oh, and Knuth has his own rock too (21656 Knuth).
23:00:17 <ais523> "Oracle University UK"?
23:00:47 <ais523> elliott: the Java API is now on oracle.com rather than sun.com (although they've put redirects in for every page, fortunately)
23:00:58 <ais523> it felt so strange linking there for my students
23:01:40 <elliott> <ais523> "Oracle University UK"?
23:01:45 <elliott> some Oracle docs site or something
23:02:07 <ais523> what a pretentious name
23:07:20 <elliott> ais523: <a href="donations.html"><blink>Donate to stop<br>the blinking!</blink></a> --openssh.com
23:07:46 <Gregor> elliott: ... no way ...
23:08:10 <Gregor> I'll bet it's bad at tracking that :P
23:09:31 <elliott> Gregor: they probably link you to a member's only copy of the site without that :P
23:09:50 <elliott> 01:40:04 <tusho> AnMaster: pirate it.
23:09:50 <elliott> 01:40:11 <AnMaster> tusho, I don't do that...
23:09:50 <elliott> 01:40:35 <AnMaster> I don't break the law like that
23:09:53 <elliott> Vorpal: HOW FAR YOU HAVE SUNK
23:10:10 <fizzie> http://openssh.com/?donated=yes -- aww, it didn't stop the blinking. :/
23:10:21 <fizzie> Maybe admin=yes, then...
23:10:23 <elliott> Gregor: Or maybe you get an account on openssh.com, and you have to use ssh to set up ssh forwarding so that http://localhost:8080/ points to the site (only served on openssh.com's localhost) without the blinking.
23:11:40 <elliott> Gregor: Or maybe donating gets you the instructions "Access the blink-less site with: $ lynx openssh.com"
23:12:50 <ais523> elliott: Google's excerpt from the Wikipedia article on Lynx says yes
23:12:56 <ais523> the article itself doesn't, though
23:13:29 <fizzie> It says to me, in the infobox.
23:14:15 <ais523> citation is to http://lynx.isc.org/lynx2.8.7/lynx2-8-7/COPYHEADER
23:14:22 <Gregor> [e]links[ 2] is better :P
23:14:25 <ais523> fizzie: ah; still, the infobox has different wording from the Google quote
23:14:59 <Gregor> ais523: There seems to be no current links that supports JS, and neither does w3m (although w3m has images by some bizarre magic)
23:15:32 <fizzie> I think we took a look at how w3m (was it w3m?) does images; it was pretty bizarre indeed.
23:15:38 <ais523> Gregor: it makes images into links that spawn an external image viewer, IIRC
23:15:59 <Gregor> ais523: Yeah, but how does it know where to put them?
23:16:09 <Gregor> ais523: Even if you're using e.g. konsole, it draws the image at the right place.
23:16:25 <fizzie> Gregor: There was a really kludgy heuristic for the offsets.
23:16:28 <ais523> oh, I never noticed it was putting them in the right places
23:17:30 <pikhq> Gregor: Uh, I'm pretty sure Elinks supports Javascript.
23:17:40 <pikhq> I *know* it depends on SpiderMonkey.
23:17:44 <fizzie> I can't be sure it was exactly w3m; but we did take a look at one text-mode browser that magicked images on top of console sort-of in the right places.
23:17:56 <Gregor> pikhq: It doesn't work with recent SpiderMonkey.
23:18:00 <pikhq> fizzie: That's w3m.
23:18:21 <Gregor> pikhq: And Links 2, which had its own interpreter, has it all commented out now X-D
23:18:48 <fizzie> Gregor: "it recognizes the text part of the terminal window by looking for a child window that has a width and height of at least 0.7 times the actual window; and then it does: if (attr.x <= 0 && attr.width < 30 && attr.height > wop->height * 0.7) /* scrollbar of xterm/kterm ? */ wop->offset_x += attr.x + attr.width + attr.border_width * 2;"
23:19:10 <elliott> ais523: do you use w3m as a pager too?
23:19:10 <Gregor> fizzie: Holy fuuuuuuuuuuuck X-D
23:19:18 <ais523> elliott: no, I generally use less
23:19:20 <fizzie> I think Vorpal said it breaks in his terminal.
23:19:23 <elliott> <fizzie> Gregor: "it recognizes the text part of the terminal window by looking for a child window that has a width and height of at least 0.7 times the actual window; and then it does: if (attr.x <= 0 && attr.width < 30 && attr.height > wop->height * 0.7) /* scrollbar of xterm/kterm ? */ wop->offset_x += attr.x + attr.width + attr.border_width * 2;"
23:19:41 <Gregor> elliott: The most horrifying thing is that it works.
23:19:42 <elliott> ais523: w3m can't load non-regular files, alas
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23:22:49 <fizzie> Heh, normally tunes.org logs open just fine as plaintext, but the day for that w3m discussion -- http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.05.02 -- has a lot of \x0f's from myndzi near the top, so at least my browser wants to save it since it's obviously a binary file. (Even though it still comes with content-type: text/plain.)
23:22:57 <pikhq> w3m is short for "WWW wo miru" (WWWを見る).
23:23:34 <elliott> fizzie: That happens to me, too.
23:23:52 <Gregor> pikhq: I don't follow where the "3" came from for that.
23:23:53 <fizzie> Another tidbit of magic: "It also finds the terminal window by looking what window has the input focus."
23:23:54 <elliott> fizzie: botte, of course, will have nicely-formatted clog logs. Also your logs. Also anyone else's logs I can merge in. Also botte's own logs.
23:23:57 <Sgeo> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A Lisp-Smalltalk hybrid? (Note: Smalltalk is a good language despite Sgeo.)
23:24:12 <Sgeo> The way you talk about it, you'd think that I was more than a fan
23:24:18 <Gregor> elliott: So where did the "wo" go?
23:24:29 <elliott> Gregor: Just like you drop "of" and the like in English abbreviations.
23:24:36 <pikhq> First, it's a grammatical particle, so nobody cares.
23:24:44 <Gregor> Mmm, I was trying to interpret it like i18n X-P
23:24:46 <elliott> * Sakamoto Hironori's Homepage
23:24:46 <elliott> The best contributer's page.
23:24:56 <elliott> All the other contributors suck.
23:25:06 <Sgeo> That somehow Phantom_Hoover might think that my liking a language automatically means it's bad
23:25:11 <elliott> "W3m has many siblings/friends."
23:25:20 <elliott> Well, I thought we were just friends, but then she became my sister.
23:25:54 <elliott> Gregor: What's scarier is when you run something in an xterm and it somehow has images: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/W3m-wikipedia.png
23:26:07 <Gregor> elliott: ... that's what we were talking about like five minutes ago.
23:26:13 <pikhq> Second, it's Hepburn-romanised as "o", anyways.
23:26:13 <pikhq> Third, it can be considered a suffix, rather than a seperate word.
23:26:13 <pikhq> (it's a fairly arbitrary designation, though)
23:26:20 <elliott> Gregor: I thought we were just talking about where it knew to start the image viewer.
23:26:33 <elliott> I guess that made no sense to me either.
23:26:52 <pikhq> God damn cable getting unplugged.
23:27:00 <Gregor> elliott: It puts the window-frame-free image viewer at the correct location for the terminal emulator and screen.
23:27:11 <elliott> Gregor: ...and then moves it around?
23:27:24 <elliott> Gregor: That is the best worst thing ever X-D
23:27:37 <elliott> Gregor: It'd be better with xterm's Tektronix emulation.
23:27:41 <elliott> That can embed graphs, at least.
23:28:27 <Gregor> I wonder if it can do the same on vt1 with fbdev :)
23:28:31 <fizzie> Gregor: If my memory is correct, it does actually draw the image by itself, instead of using a separate program for that; and the code was too messy for me to tell whether it just acquired somehow a graphics context to the terminal window (which is what it *looked* like it was doing) or just did the more reasonable (well, relatively speaking) thing of opening a popup-styled window and put it in the right place.
23:28:50 <fizzie> Gregor: "There's similar code for linux framebuffer, to draw directly into it. I think elinks or links2 or something supported the framebuffer like that too."
23:28:58 <Gregor> fizzie: YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSs
23:28:59 <fizzie> See, we covered everything you might wonder.
23:29:20 <Gregor> fizzie: links2 just draws everything with the framebuffer, w3m uses normal text mode for everything but graphics, making w3m far more magical :P
23:29:29 <elliott> fizzie: Please tell me it supports using libcaca when you just have bytes and that's it.
23:29:40 <pikhq> fizzie: Elinks and links2 can just do graphical rendering.
23:29:44 <pikhq> elliott: God I hope so.
23:29:55 <Gregor> pikhq: Uhhh, elinks can't do graphics.
23:29:57 <Sgeo> libcaca == aa-like thing?
23:29:58 <elliott> Hey, w3m has a man replacement.
23:30:30 <elliott> Headers are links to the header file
23:30:34 <Gregor> pikhq: Nor can it do JS right now *sobblecopter*
23:30:36 <elliott> Manpages are links to the pages
23:30:43 <elliott> w3mman is the BEST THING EVER except it doesn't scroll nicely
23:30:45 <pikhq> Gregor: Argh, so it can't.
23:30:55 <elliott> Gregor: Please record the noise of a sobblecopter.
23:30:58 <fizzie> I'm not sure about libcaca; I've used it as an external image-viewer for something, but I'm not sure it can use it to draw on page.
23:31:09 <Gregor> pikhq: I was looking into this just recently to see if I could add *links* to http://js.codu.org/ :P
23:31:26 <Sgeo> WTF Reddit is hallucinating on me
23:31:40 <elliott> How do you enable images in w3m ;_;
23:31:45 <elliott> I have it enabled in the options
23:31:54 <Gregor> elliott: Requires a "plugin" or something, w3m-img or whatever it's called.
23:32:09 <Sgeo> I had a phantom orangered
23:32:56 <elliott> Gregor: Already installed bitch
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23:33:05 <Gregor> elliott: Then Idonno :)
23:33:27 <elliott> lawl it wants a w3mimgdispaly command which ivn't got
23:33:38 <elliott> how do you list files in a package again
23:34:29 <elliott> /usr/lib/w3m/w3mimgdisplay
23:34:33 <elliott> fucking debian shoving shit into /usr/lib
23:34:55 <Gregor> Yeah, should be /usr/libexec
23:35:03 <elliott> Gregor: should be /usr/bin :p
23:35:32 <elliott> "Maximum processes for parallel image loading"
23:36:04 <elliott> Gregor: It... raped my terminal.
23:36:11 <elliott> Gregor: http://i.imgur.com/q0dDC.png
23:36:19 <fizzie> Gregor: Anyway, http://p.zem.fi/x11-w3mimg.c (see w3mimg_x11open at the bottom) and then http://p.zem.fi/w3mimgdisplay.c what it uses to keep the image synced.
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23:36:28 <elliott> Gregor: Gahaha, minimise and unminimise and it disappears until you scroll or something.
23:36:34 <elliott> Gregor: Oh wow, it goes over my menu bar.
23:36:45 <elliott> This is the least reliable thing EVER
23:36:58 <elliott> Gregor: Dear god, if you uncomment out the JS it could do websplat.
23:37:24 <Gregor> elliott: Minus its obscene lack of necessary features ...
23:37:28 <fizzie> elliott: Hey, there *is* a rather comprehensive survey of how different terminals arrange their subwindows in x11_w3mimg.c.
23:37:37 <elliott> Gregor: It has images, it has JavaScript. What more do you need?
23:37:44 <Gregor> elliott: Actual DOM features.
23:37:46 <elliott> fizzie: Who implemented this and where do I send hugs X-D
23:37:53 <elliott> Gregor: Fiine, just port V8 to it.
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23:38:13 <elliott> Gregor: Just port Chrome to w3m
23:38:26 <elliott> Gregor: Should I make that sentence more ridiculous? :P
23:38:42 <elliott> Gregor: Just port Linux to w3m, problem solved
23:38:51 <elliott> Gregor: Just port X11 to w3m, problem solved
23:39:16 <Gregor> elliott: Probably the most "feasible" system would be to run a graphical browser headless and "serialize" its DOM to a textual view.
23:39:34 <elliott> prompt$ LD_PRELOAD mymemcpy.so /opt/google/chrome/google-chrome &
23:39:40 <elliott> -- https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=638477#c38
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23:40:08 <elliott> "(and I tested the Daughtry thing too, although I am not convinced it
23:40:08 <elliott> sounds all that much better without the sound corruption)"
23:41:46 <fizzie> Gregor: Anyway, the code is too messy for me to actually figure out, but it really *looks* as if it were just acquiring a graphics context to the terminal window and drawing directly on top of that, but I guess it still does the reasonable (well, relatively) thing of creating a frameless popup window on top.
23:41:50 <fizzie> (It's just that it does XCreateGC(xi->display, xi->window, ..) and earlier xi->window has been initialized with XGetInputFocus; it really doesn't seem to actually *create* a window anywhere.)
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23:43:17 <Sgeo> a) The cat must vacate my room
23:43:17 <fizzie> (Well, XGetInputFocus and then some walking of the window tree to get to the actual text container in some cases.)
23:43:27 <Sgeo> b) This applies to all rules where the cat is present in my room
23:43:32 <Gregor> c) The cat must vacate its bowels
23:44:55 <elliott> practised by... evil programmer indiana jones
23:51:28 <pikhq> elliott: Looks like Google's spriting bit you.
23:51:44 <elliott> pikhq: Yes. I am radioactive now!
23:52:08 <pikhq> elliott: They use a single image containing all the images on their page and use CSS to display the relevant portions.
23:53:02 <elliott> pikhq: I'm also Spider-Man.
23:54:35 <Gregor> pikhq: Argh, yes, that kills WebSplat too >: (
23:54:43 <Gregor> Well, not kills, but makes wonky.
23:55:29 <Sgeo> You mean, WebSplat doesn't include its own ... actually, I have only a vague idea of what I wanted to say.
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00:27:52 <pikhq> And Mormonism is Abrahamic American Exceptionalism, the religion.
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00:36:37 <elliott> pikhq: that has good meter
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01:18:59 <Sgeo> So, function that is 1 on all rational numbers, 0 on irrational numbers
01:19:10 <Sgeo> I think there's a name for some function along those lines
01:19:35 * Sgeo googles for weird mathematical functions
01:20:24 <Sgeo> http://www.domesatreview.com/weird-functions fuck you, study guide
01:20:29 <Sgeo> That's not what I need
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01:53:11 <Sgeo> Anyone want to fix the mindfuck that is" The first three of these characterizations can be proved equivalent in ZermeloFraenkel set theory without the axiom of choice, but the equivalence of the third and fourth cannot be proved without additional choice principles."
01:53:23 <Sgeo> On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncountably_infinite
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02:15:18 <Sgeo> The wiki page on ZFC keeps talking about the background logic
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02:36:44 <Sgeo> Do axiom schemata specify a _countably_ infinite number of axioms?
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02:43:29 * Sgeo fantasizes about proving ZF from within ZF
02:45:59 <Sgeo> Wait, the Godel sentence is not just an abstraction?
02:46:08 <Sgeo> If I google for ZF's Godel sentence, I will find it?
03:22:49 * pikhq kinda wishes that Apple kept Classic working on Intel Macs
03:23:33 * Sgeo decides to relearn Scala
03:23:54 <Sgeo> I think the biggest thing that scared me about Scala is the idea of learning Java libraries
03:23:56 <pikhq> Thereby never once breaking ABI.
03:24:14 <Sgeo> Oh, and I was learning it in the context of Android iirc
03:25:44 <Sgeo> elliott would correctly assume I'm demented if I mentioned the reason I'm thinking about Scala right now
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04:19:31 <Gregor> !c printf("Does this still work?")
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04:29:43 <Chapati> oh this is a programming chan?
04:29:50 <Chapati> was hoping for something more cultish
04:33:51 -!- Gregor has set topic: Welcome to #esoteric, the international hub for the occult, voodoo, crystal healing, esoteric topics in computation and programming languages, magick, astrology and spiritual projection | Praise be unto the enlightened one, Zenduul, who currently possesses the mind and being of ais523 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
04:34:20 <Gregor> People get pissed when I do that, what with it being completely unrelated to the actual topic of the channel :P
04:34:23 <Sgeo> I'm sure to many people, computers seem like magic
04:34:57 <pikhq> Sgeo: *neko neko chibi mahō
04:34:59 <Sgeo> Chapati, Chapa'ai?
04:35:48 <Sgeo> Sorry, I just said the only bit of goa'uld that I know
04:36:06 <Chapati> i just said something I just made up
04:36:07 <pikhq> Sgeo: That's one of like 5 phrases that exists, so you're good.
04:37:22 <Sgeo> Should I avoid Clojure like the plague?
04:37:40 <Sgeo> OTOH, the stuff about STM seems tempting
04:47:01 <pikhq> If you want STM use Haskell.
04:47:46 <Gregor> Or any other pure, functional language ;)
04:48:34 <pikhq> Gregor: So, Haskell.
04:49:02 <pikhq> Hooray, legitimate killer features. :P
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05:05:31 <Sgeo> What's Clojure's STM like/
05:08:42 <Gregor> I'm sure it's as good as an STM can be in an impure imperative language, which is to say really terrible unless you're very, very careful.
05:09:46 <pikhq> Though it certainly works better in a relatively modern impure imperative language, such as Clojure, than it would in, say, C++.
05:09:55 <pikhq> (I have heard mention of such a thing. It frightens me.)
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05:12:01 <pikhq> It appears Closure has the one (huge) restriction that your STM values must be immutable.
05:12:28 <pikhq> No, there's another.
05:12:35 <pikhq> No side effects in a transaction.
05:12:54 <Gregor> I mean, not that much lawl, since that just means that the authors new the realistic limitations of STM and didn't think it was magic *shrugs*
05:13:22 <pikhq> So: code in Haskell, without the compiler telling you when you fuck it up.
05:13:44 <pikhq> AKA the best possible implementation of STM without purity and strong typing.
05:18:38 <Sgeo> Shall I stick with Scala?
05:19:00 <pikhq> You shall not use any language but Haskell!
05:19:18 <Gregor> You shall not use any language but C!
05:19:39 <Sgeo> You shall not use any language but Falctorn!
05:20:44 <pikhq> You shall not use any language but the untyped lambda calculus!
05:20:48 <pikhq> Evaluated by Church!
05:23:47 <Gregor> You shall not use any language but Turing Machine descriptions!
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05:24:27 <pikhq> You shall not use any language!
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06:21:45 <Sgeo> The thing that keeps getting me about Scala is its statically-checkable duck-typing
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06:50:45 <coppro> http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive/phd091606s.gif
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08:37:42 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: HOW FAR YOU HAVE SUNK <-- quite a bit it seems
08:38:50 <Vorpal> <fizzie> I think Vorpal said it breaks in his terminal. <-- yes, it displays stuff on top of the menu of my terminal and such
08:38:56 <Vorpal> also places it in the wrong position
08:58:32 <fizzie> I've re-looked at the code, and it really looks as if it just draws directly into the terminal window, not into a frameless pop-up thing on top. I didn't know you could XCreateGC someone else's window like that.
09:12:21 <fizzie> Creates a drawing context for a window.
09:12:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, the security implications of that are scary
09:12:53 <Vorpal> what if some app did that to gtksu or such
09:14:47 <fizzie> Well, you could still probably fake it with the frameless popup window thing if it were disabled.
09:16:16 <fizzie> In any case there is no security as soon as you can connect to the X server: it'll let you keylog and generate input events and whatnot, anyway. Still, painting all over someone else's window like that sounds so impolite. It's like spray-painting someone's wall or something.
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09:31:34 <Vorpal> idea: panoramic comic. "no fourth wall" takes on a new meaning then
09:36:07 <fizzie> Sounds interesting; maybe you should do a sqrt(-garfield) with that concept.
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14:52:00 <elliott> 17:53:11 <Sgeo> Anyone want to fix the mindfuck that is" The first three of these characterizations can be proved equivalent in Zermelo–Fraenkel set theory without the axiom of choice, but the equivalence of the third and fourth cannot be proved without additional choice principles."
14:52:10 <elliott> 18:43:29 * Sgeo fantasizes about proving ZF from within ZF
14:52:15 <elliott> congrats, you can hit no lower point.
14:52:22 <elliott> 18:46:08 <Sgeo> If I google for ZF's Godel sentence, I will find it?
14:52:34 <elliott> You can generate it at least for constructive logics but it's way too big to print out.
14:52:40 <elliott> Maybe if you borrowed the LHC's disk.
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14:54:46 <elliott> 01:16:16 <fizzie> In any case there is no security as soon as you can connect to the X server: it'll let you keylog and generate input events and whatnot, anyway. Still, painting all over someone else's window like that sounds so impolite. It's like spray-painting someone's wall or something.
14:54:50 <elliott> Yeah, X is terribly insecure.
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15:24:12 <elliott> http://turton.co.za/chordingKeyboard/chordingKeyboard.html (http://trevors-trinkets.blogspot.com/2007/07/five-finger-keyboards.html)
15:29:16 <Ilari> There's untrusted mode (unusable: breaks just about every app) and there is XACE... Oh and of course SE-X (or what it is called nowadays...)
15:30:31 <elliott> Ilari: SELinux is too crazy to get near any box I run...
15:30:45 <elliott> Ilari: I'm all for capability-based security, but gluing it onto Linux is just... no.
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15:56:16 <elliott> http://distractionware.com/blog/?p=193 1x5 font
15:57:14 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/RY75R.png middle one may be easier to read
15:57:31 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/wslXu.jpg
16:00:48 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, you know that Sita Sings the Blues thing? The creator is one of them VHEMT people X-D
16:01:00 <elliott> (My internet is such an echo chamber, I keep reading about the exact same things.)
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16:18:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Can I just say that mmap() is a wonderful thing?
16:19:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's like orthogonal persistence except lame!
16:19:29 <elliott> Which is high praise for Unix.
16:19:33 <elliott> And hey, look, GHC 7.0.1 is out.
16:19:58 <elliott> GHC now defaults to the Haskell 2010 language standard
16:19:59 <elliott> On POSIX platforms, there is a new I/O manager based on epoll/kqueue/poll, which allows multithreaded I/O code to scale to a much larger number (100k+) of threads
16:20:03 <elliott> GHC now includes an LLVM code generator which, for certain code, can bring some nice performance improvements
16:20:05 <elliott> The type checker has been overhauled, which means it is now able to correctly handle interactions between the type systemextensions
16:21:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not really.
16:21:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Be aware that compiling GHC takes 2, 4, 6 hours depending on the phase of the moon.
16:21:58 <elliott> It is probably not 6, they've redone the build system.
16:22:01 <elliott> But still, it's no quickie.
16:22:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and you'd have to do the fun jig which is "keep the apt package, compile, uninstall it, install the new one".
16:22:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: When compiling GHC I tend to wipe everything, get a 6.8.2 binary, don't install it, and just point the new GHC to the path it's at for compilation purposes.
16:22:59 <elliott> Of course, it may be better with the new build system...
16:30:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Huh -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISLISP
16:30:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ISO-standard Lisp X-D
16:30:20 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Sounds interesting; maybe you should do a sqrt(-garfield) with that concept. <-- yeah, perhaps. Too lazy though.
16:30:51 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> idea: panoramic comic. "no fourth wall" takes on a new meaning then
16:31:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw I was making a sphere pano in mindcraft. damn clouds moving so fast
16:32:07 <Vorpal> while I did have parallax I chose my position so it was all far away
16:32:18 <Vorpal> not done yet. 10 images still to add control points to
16:32:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, also didn't you say FOV was like 70°?
16:33:22 <elliott> Vorpal: I am rebellious! I name C macros lowercase names! Mwahahaha!
16:33:30 <Vorpal> elliott, ITYM: ncurses
16:33:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, no, ncurses does it hideously. I name macros that do actually crazy things uppercase.
16:33:58 <elliott> Vorpal: But macros that *could* be implemented as functions, I just don't see the point naming uppercase things.
16:34:12 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean like #define clear() ... ?
16:34:20 <Vorpal> iirc ncurses does something like that
16:34:33 <elliott> Vorpal: As well as things like "#define writes(fd, s) write(fd, s, sizeof(s)-1)" where the only reason you can't do it as a function is because C sucks and is clueless about ararys.
16:34:51 <elliott> (Where s is a string literal.)
16:35:13 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you using C strings?
16:35:38 <Vorpal> elliott, it is perfectly possible to use saner representations in C. A bit tricky to make string constants into that of course
16:35:40 <elliott> Vorpal: Because writes(1, "Hello, world!\n"); is simpler than writes(1, STR("Hello, world!\n")) :-)
16:35:51 <elliott> Vorpal: (And I don't have to reimplement the libc, much as I would like to.)
16:36:01 <elliott> (reimplement -- as in string.h and the like)
16:36:20 <Vorpal> elliott, you could turn string constants into... Hm... Use a preprocessor to do it automatically :D
16:36:40 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, gcc substitutes \p for the length of the rest of the string if it comes first.
16:36:50 <elliott> Vorpal: At that point I stop using C and give up on the project by trying to figure out what language to wr--
16:37:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, interesting extension...
16:37:22 <Vorpal> must be some pascal compat
16:37:28 <elliott> Vorpal: \p for pascal presumably
16:37:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Let me guess, \P does it as two bytes instead.
16:38:17 <elliott> #define smallint(x) (((x)<<1)|1)
16:38:22 <elliott> Wonder whether |1 is "faster" than +1. :-)
16:38:26 <Vorpal> it should be if you strings are
16:38:55 <Vorpal> elliott, smallint? I don't get the name here
16:39:22 <elliott> Vorpal: pointer ends in 0 due to byte alignment. 63-bit integers can be stored in a 64-bit pointer by setting the least significant bit.
16:39:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Everything larger is a bignum and thus a pointer.
16:39:52 <Vorpal> elliott, that doesn't work if you are indexing into a string or such. Then pointers can be odd
16:39:57 <Vorpal> and not sure about string constants
16:40:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, I don't use C strings. ;-
16:40:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Strings are either going to be symbols or cons cells of integers or something silly like that.
16:40:43 <Vorpal> anyway or would on hw level be faster due to lack of need to carry anything
16:41:13 <Vorpal> that assumes you don't expand the function add
16:41:32 <Vorpal> as in, making a big Kaurnaugh diagram for the adder. :D
16:43:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No. Heavens that I should do something so practical.
16:46:19 <elliott> http://code.google.com/speed/webp/
16:46:42 <elliott> In which Google decide to try and compete with JPEG, in what can only be either insanity or genius, but definitely ultimate egoism.
16:49:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: v53.7996 in the optimized .pto. I play in an approximately 960x1200 window, though, which is a bit... vertical.
16:49:45 <Gregor> elliott: http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/new-in-labs-stop-sending-mail-you-later.html <-- in which Google decides to try to compete with beer.
16:49:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, must be a strange experience
16:50:07 <elliott> Vorpal: That thing talking about tiny text in the opening screen -- what resolution did it say?
16:50:22 <Vorpal> elliott, hm it said 1080p
16:50:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Whichever it says, that's the official resolution and all FOVs should be measured with that :-)
16:50:50 <elliott> Vorpal: 960x540 would work, as it's exactly half of 1080p and is more likely to actually fit on your display.
16:50:53 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway that doesn't make sense.
16:50:57 <elliott> It may be the default resolution, for all I know.
16:51:06 <Vorpal> elliott, FOV depends on what you actually used to take the screenshot
16:51:17 <Vorpal> which is what matters when stitching the pano
16:51:18 <Gregor> OK, seriously, I know I post old things sometimes WHEN THEY ARE RELEVANT, but "Gregor: Old" is a nonsense response X_X
16:51:54 <Vorpal> isn't he less than 30?
16:51:56 * Gregor shakes his cane at elliott
16:51:59 <Vorpal> 30 is the point where you get old
16:52:13 <elliott> <Ten-year-old Vorpal> You're 20? Wow, you're OLD.
16:52:16 <Vorpal> (that will be revised when I become 27 or so)
16:52:32 <elliott> <Baby Vorpal> Goo goo ga ga [translation: 10 years old? Holy fucking shit! You'll be kicking the bucket soon, nigga.]
16:52:50 <elliott> (All babies talk like this.)
16:54:03 <elliott> <Vorpal T minus ten years> [REDACTED]
16:54:06 <Gregor> Y'know, my original plan was to make sure I had my PhD by 30, but that's waaaay too simple. Instead I should aim to have tenure by 30.
16:54:24 <elliott> Ph.D. by 30, Gregor is so ambitious
16:54:33 <elliott> Tenure is the most awesomely fucked thing ever.
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16:56:11 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I can find mention of -fpascal-strings (disabled by default) and the \p escapes only in the OS X Developer Tools documentation for gcc-4.0.1; it's not in e.g. the official gcc-4.0.4 manual. Are you sure that's not another screwy Apple thing again?
16:56:30 <fizzie> The documentation for it in the Apple place also says "Pascal-style literals are useful for calling external routines that expect Pascal strings as arguments, as is true with some Apple MacOS Toolbox calls. "
16:58:23 <elliott> Hahaha, I just had the stupidest idea.
16:58:35 <elliott> Say "is a symbol" is worked out by (tag&1).
16:58:43 <elliott> Say "is a cons" is (tag&2).
16:58:48 <elliott> Then nil's tag is 3, and it's both.
17:10:02 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:10:12 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
17:11:29 <Vorpal> elliott, idea: chess with hitpoints and rolling of d10s
17:12:07 <Vorpal> elliott, it is an interesting idea, no?
17:12:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Tell me I'm evil for packing strings into words.
17:13:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I got this idea after hearing about a rpg/minesweeper mix. The numbers showing total levels of monsters next to the square instead. And you had to level up to beat higher level monsters. By beating quite a few level 1 ones first. And so on
17:13:37 <Vorpal> someone mentioned a flash game like that today.
17:13:45 <Vorpal> haven't played it myself. Sounded fun though
17:14:23 <elliott> Vorpal: wow, multi-char char constants work in gcc
17:14:34 <Vorpal> so I started thinking about interesting mixes. And since we had just had a lecture discussing search tree for game solving algorithms (using chess as an example) it was the natural one to start with
17:14:35 <elliott> don't know if they get endianness right though
17:14:55 <Vorpal> elliott, aren't they for multibyte?
17:15:06 <elliott> Vorpal: probably. I'm trying to pack a string "nasm style"
17:15:13 <Vorpal> elliott, and how does it do it?
17:15:31 <elliott> Vorpal: like CPUID "GenuineIntel"
17:15:52 <elliott> For instance, on a GenuineIntel processor values returned in EBX is 0x756e6547, EDX is 0x49656e69 and ECX is 0x6c65746e. The following code is written in GNU Assembler for the x86-64 architecture and displays the vendor ID string as well as the highest calling parameter that the CPU supports.
17:15:56 <Vorpal> elliott, which is just putting the string in the registers iirc Had it written it to memory it would have been perfectly normal
17:16:03 <elliott> Vorpal: no, because it packs, see above
17:16:19 <Vorpal> elliott, packed more than byte after byte?
17:16:22 <elliott> as we see, C packs differently
17:16:24 <elliott> <elliott> For instance, on a GenuineIntel processor values returned in EBX is 0x756e6547, EDX is 0x49656e69 and ECX is 0x6c65746e. The following code is written in GNU Assembler for the x86-64 architecture and displays the vendor ID string as well as the highest calling parameter that the CPU supports.
17:16:24 <elliott> <elliott> For instance, on a GenuineIntel processor values returned in EBX is 0x756e6547, EDX is 0x49656e69 and ECX is 0x6c65746e. The following code is written in GNU Assembler for the x86-64 architecture and displays the vendor ID string as well as the highest calling parameter that the CPU supports.
17:16:25 <elliott> <elliott> For instance, on a GenuineIntel processor values returned in EBX is 0x756e6547, EDX is 0x49656e69 and ECX is 0x6c65746e. The following code is written in GNU Assembler for the x86-64 architecture and displays the vendor ID string as well as the highest calling parameter that the CPU supports.
17:16:29 <elliott> <elliott> For instance, on a GenuineIntel processor values returned in EBX is 0x756e6547, EDX is 0x49656e69 and ECX is 0x6c65746e. The following code is written in GNU Assembler for the x86-64 architecture and displays the vendor ID string as well as the highest calling parameter that the CPU supports.
17:16:33 <elliott> well, you didn't read it...
17:16:50 <Vorpal> and afaik it is just union { 32-bit register; char[4]; }
17:16:56 <Vorpal> not sure about endianness
17:17:04 <Vorpal> but that was the basic idea last I checked
17:17:18 <Vorpal> elliott, so I fail to see what is so amazing about it
17:17:21 <elliott> right, but i can't really do this packing from within c at compile-time
17:17:26 <elliott> i never said anything was amazing about it. wtf?
17:17:35 <elliott> I'm just saying that 'Genu' doesn't give the same results in gcc
17:18:03 <Gregor> !c printf("%d", sizeof('Genu'))
17:18:23 <Vorpal> elliott, well a string is also packed. Just do something like union { uint32_t i[2]; char c[8]; } ? then assign to c
17:18:24 <Gregor> !c printf("%d", sizeof('Genuine '))
17:18:31 <fizzie> That doesn't prove much, since single-character literals are also ints too.
17:18:45 <Gregor> !c printf("%d", sizeof('G'))
17:18:50 <elliott> Vorpal: "assign to c" I don't believe you can do this properly at compile time.
17:18:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Especially since my strings run *backwards*
17:19:03 <Vorpal> elliott, oh that backwardness might be an issue
17:19:10 <fizzie> The "character literals are of type int" is standard, but multi-character literals are implementation-defined.
17:19:14 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you can assign there with C99
17:19:17 <elliott> Where || means "pointer is here".
17:19:22 <Vorpal> since you can tell it which member in the union
17:19:28 <Vorpal> but who uses C89 nowdays anyway
17:19:29 <elliott> Except that of course I want to pack 0 L I N into one word or so.
17:19:47 <Vorpal> elliott, well sucks to be you then. Easy to assign there at compile time with C99 :P
17:20:06 <Vorpal> the backwardness is an issue
17:20:10 <Vorpal> elliott, are you doing befunge or?
17:20:30 <Vorpal> elliott, why do they run backwards then?
17:20:34 <elliott> I'm arranging the objects so that NIL can be both a cons cell and a symbol.
17:20:37 <fizzie> What GCC does is: "The compiler evaluates a multi-character character constant a character at a time, shifting the previous value left by the number of bits per target character, and then or-ing in the bit-pattern of the new character truncated to the width of a target character. The final bit-pattern is given type int, and is therefore signed, regardless of whether single characters are signed or not."
17:21:00 <elliott> 0 [name of the symbol backwards ...] || [binary value ending with "0"]
17:21:04 <elliott> where || means "pointer is to here"
17:21:17 <elliott> || [binary value ending with "1x" for any x] [pointer to car] [pointer to cdr]
17:21:34 <elliott> 0 L I N || 0b10 [pointer to ||] [pointer to ||]
17:21:48 <elliott> <elliott> 0 [name of the symbol backwards ...] || [binary value ending with "1"]
17:21:50 <Vorpal> elliott, Seems a rather complex solution
17:21:53 <elliott> 0 L I N || 0b11 [pointer to ||] [pointer to ||]
17:22:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Not really, it's just a little bit of arranging and lets me avoid a ton of conditionals checking for x==NIL.
17:22:19 <elliott> Vorpal: It would probably be simpler if cons cells ran backwards since they have a fixed number of fields.
17:22:23 <elliott> Then the symbol names could run forwards.
17:22:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Of course all this has to be aligned so that the || pointer ends with 0.
17:22:47 <Vorpal> elliott, so how large is your cons cell? If it isn't 2*sizeof(void*) you are doing something wrong
17:23:11 <Vorpal> elliott, the tag is usually in that :P
17:23:13 <elliott> Vorpal: I could keep the tag in the pointer but I think it would waste 2 or 3 bits.
17:23:21 <elliott> No it's not usually in that...
17:23:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, why else would you end up with 21 bit integers in lisp and such
17:23:30 <Vorpal> which is rather common
17:23:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Silly type proliferation. :)
17:24:15 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway why does it need to store the name of the symbol every time?
17:24:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, I would prefer to have one tag distinguishing symbol vs. cons and then have the pointer tag just be smallint/pointer; that way, smallints can be 63-bits (on x86-64), and while you can have symbol-and-a-cons, you can't have symbol-and-a-cons-and-a-smallint which is just silly.
17:24:25 <Vorpal> couldn't you use a GCed symbol table?
17:24:29 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, uh, this is the symbol object.
17:24:35 <elliott> Of course every reference to it is just a pointer to it ...................
17:24:52 <elliott> (GCing them would be difficult to say the least.)
17:25:10 <Vorpal> elliott, well if you don't you get a silly situation. Like that of erlang. Where you can run out of atoms in theory.
17:25:14 <elliott> picolisp has "transient symbols" that are GC'd and they are used in place of strings... and also sometimes in macro
17:25:23 <elliott> syntax is "foo" but it's displayed in the REPL as underlined foo
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17:25:42 <Vorpal> (the limit is rather high, and unless you are converting user input strings to atoms all the time you are probably safe)
17:26:56 <elliott> * sym: *tag_sym, name, 0 */
17:27:00 <elliott> * sym: *tag_sym, name, 0 */
17:28:20 <elliott> struct { cell x; cell y; cell tag; char name[1]; }
17:28:20 <elliott> nils = { nil, nil, tag_sym|tag_pair, "nil" };
17:28:33 <elliott> Vorpal: This would work, except (nils+2) has to be aligned to 0...
17:28:44 <elliott> Vorpal: (by nils+2 I mean &(nils.tag))
17:30:02 <Vorpal> elliott, awkward to not have everything the same size
17:30:14 <Vorpal> unless you put them in a special pool
17:30:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Suggestions welcome. :P
17:30:54 <Vorpal> elliott, forbid long names? If 4 letters is enough for befunge fingerprints then it is enough for you :P
17:31:43 <elliott> Vorpal: I could go for 16 or 24-char names.
17:31:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Problem is that if I use these for strings...
17:32:02 <elliott> Vorpal: I could always make symbols just conses of smallints.
17:32:06 <Vorpal> elliott, depending on what the size of cell is, and if it is 64-bit. Then you will have 3 or 7 bytes of padding after "struct { cell x; cell y; cell tag; char name[1]; }"
17:32:07 <elliott> Vorpal: (97 98) is 'ab :-)
17:32:26 <elliott> Vorpal: also, remember that char name[1] is actually a C89-style VLA :P
17:32:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, yes, 64-bit is the main target here.
17:33:05 <Vorpal> if so you would have 7 bytes of padding after the end of that array. That could be used for extending the name into
17:33:13 <Vorpal> so 8 bytes total for the name
17:33:34 <elliott> Vorpal: You do realise that name could be as long as I want?
17:33:39 <elliott> char name[1] is C89 phrasing of char name[].
17:33:43 <Vorpal> elliott, NOT IN MY SOLUTION :P
17:33:52 <Vorpal> elliott, which would allocate them end on end
17:34:03 <Vorpal> thus solving memory fragmentation
17:34:24 <Vorpal> and make allocation simple
17:35:14 <elliott> Vorpal: 8 bytes name does not sound fun :p
17:35:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Unless I Huffman-coded printable ASCII.
17:36:56 <Vorpal> elliott, also, it will make indexing into an array of those (not that you would need that) fast. Since it would then be a power of two in size
17:37:29 <Vorpal> elliott, indexing into an array where the elements are a power of two in size is just a bitshift.
17:37:54 <elliott> Vorpal: You have single-handedly managed to make me abandon this project :P
17:38:10 <Vorpal> elliott, what? I was just pointing out something interesting about pointers
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17:38:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, but it happened anyway. :P
17:38:25 <Vorpal> elliott, well not my fault
17:38:48 <elliott> Oh look, the Beatles have made it on to iTunes. Now all those millions of iTunes users that have been holding out on listening to the Beatles because it's not on iTunes can experience the joy. Wait, what?
17:39:13 <Vorpal> elliott, so they no longer need to pirate it then?
17:39:19 <Vorpal> or use spottify (if it has it)
17:39:37 <Vorpal> elliott, that sounds a bit far fetched
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17:40:51 <elliott> Vorpal: [[“I am particularly glad to no longer be asked when the Beatles are coming to iTunes,” said Ringo Starr.]]
17:40:59 <elliott> Translation: "Will you finally fuck off already?"
17:41:04 <elliott> I love how that's in the actual press release.
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17:57:30 <Sgeo> "Researchers who have spent months reverse-engineering the Stuxnet code say its level of sophistication suggests that a well-resourced nation-state is behind the attack."
17:57:38 <Sgeo> So, which #esoteric-er was it?
18:07:14 <elliott> 17:03:20 <ais523> ehird: that dwm source is clearly golfed
18:07:14 <elliott> 17:03:28 <ais523> it's doing things like fitting entire loops into the head of a for loop
18:07:14 <elliott> 17:03:44 <ais523> which is always possible, but only used for golfing and showing off AFAIK
18:07:20 <elliott> not really, to reply to April the First, 2009
18:13:37 <elliott> 19:15:53 <ais523> (if AnMaster were alive, he'd probably complain that _T infringes on implementation namespace or something like that...)
18:13:40 <elliott> Unfortunately AnMaster is dead.
18:14:38 <elliott> 19:44:51 <bsmntbombdood> oh, who was that girl who hung out in here?
18:14:38 <elliott> 19:44:59 <bsmntbombdood> liked manga, slept like 2 hours per night
18:14:38 <elliott> 19:45:06 <oerjan> razorX, aka sukoshi
18:14:38 <elliott> 19:45:29 <bsmntbombdood> ah, yes
18:14:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:14:49 <elliott> I like the implication that bsmntbombdood monitors and tracks everyone's sleep schedules.
18:14:55 <elliott> And now I should probably stop log-responding to last year.
18:16:30 <Sgeo> Didn't I act like an idiot one of these past April 1sts?
18:18:20 <elliott> 01:18:15 <ais523> in theory, sending a packet to 255.255.255.255 sends it to the entire Internet
18:18:20 <elliott> 01:18:21 <ais523> in practice, any sane router will drop it
18:18:25 <elliott> Sgeo: I'm not sure how to tell.
18:21:18 -!- augur has joined.
18:22:14 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, besides the insane O() thing, what's your opinion of Clojure?
18:23:40 <Sgeo> My migration to Scala 2.0.0:
18:23:48 <Sgeo> * I still use COBOL or equivalent
18:24:11 <Sgeo> I typed that by hand due to browser being a bitch
18:24:28 <elliott> You... usually copy version numbers?
18:24:58 <Sgeo> I would have copied the poll question and that option
18:25:11 <Sgeo> It's an actual poll on the Scala website
18:25:43 <Gregor> browsershots.org has volunteers donating compute time to make browser snapshots. You can pay the guy who runs the site an absurd monthly fee to get priority processing. I wonder if any of that money goes to the volunteers who run the screenshot boxes ... I'm betting no. Seems pretty unethical.
18:26:26 <elliott> Gregor: browsershots.org is pretty crappy in my experience.
18:26:33 <elliott> Gregor: Some of those Linux browsers are VERY INTERESTINGLY configured.
18:26:42 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, it is, but browsershots.org + js.codu.org = best idea ever ;)
18:26:55 <elliott> Gregor: Make sure Lynx is included :P
18:27:15 <Gregor> Lynx has no JS. And in spite of common misconception, neither do any of the .*Links.* browsers.
18:27:23 * Sgeo decides to try it on Wikipedia
18:27:28 <elliott> Gregor: Shut up. Include it.
18:27:32 * Sgeo doesn't realize that it will take a while
18:28:02 <elliott> Gregor: I suggest you fork w3m into w3m-js :P
18:28:13 <elliott> Gregor: w3m-html5. It even supports <canvas>, <audio> and <video>!
18:28:50 <Gregor> elliott: In all honesty, I think the only way we could get to a usable text-based browser that's borderline-modern is by having a headless graphical browser do the real work and then intelligently rerender its results in text.
18:30:38 <elliott> Gregor: What you're saying is, we need a libwww that does everything, including layout, except display.
18:31:12 <Gregor> elliott: Pretty much. Something you can plug a renderer into, and then have that renderer HAPPEN to be text based and do a bunch of approximation for pixels->cells.
18:31:22 <elliott> pikhq: You just registered for Agora.
18:31:28 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando).
18:31:38 <elliott> Gregor: I approve and suggest you do all the work.
18:31:53 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:31:55 <Gregor> elliott: That's funny, 'cuz I approve and suggest YOU do all the work!
18:32:12 <elliott> Gregor: I'm a centrist! Let's each do 50% of the work!
18:32:34 <Gregor> elliott: I'm a sadist, let's pikhq do 115% of the work.
18:33:51 <elliott> Gregor: I'm a masochist, let's I do 75% of the work and you do 25%.
18:35:15 <Gregor> elliott: I'm a sadomasochist, let's everybody do 115% of the work, then throw it all away.
18:36:04 <elliott> sshc cuts himself every night thanks to Phantom_Hoover.
18:36:23 <Gregor> (He used to cut himself during the day)
18:36:31 <Sgeo> When elliott said that, I thought pikhq was the anti-uorygl
18:36:45 <elliott> Gregor: I'm your boss, you do the work.
18:36:57 <Gregor> elliott: I'm THE boss. Tony Danza.
18:37:10 <elliott> Gregor: I'm a dominatrix-to-be. Pay for my sex change.
18:37:20 <Sgeo> elliott, before I checked Agora, I thought you were saying pikhq accidentally registered
18:37:35 <elliott> Gregor: I think we have reached maximum ridiculousness :P
18:37:35 <Sgeo> Which is the opposite of accidentallly deregistering
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18:55:15 <olsner> elliott: building ghc is not that bad actually, I've closed that terminal window now but pretty sure it took less than 30min
18:56:26 <Vorpal> <elliott> 19:15:53 <ais523> (if AnMaster were alive, he'd probably complain that _T infringes on implementation namespace or something like that...) <-- what?
18:56:40 <Vorpal> elliott, that would be pointless. You know about it and still ignore it. :P
18:57:09 <Vorpal> elliott, good question :P
18:57:14 <Vorpal> (alternatively: your mom)
19:15:16 * Sgeo downloads Ubuntu Desktop edition
19:23:47 * Sgeo wonders if Kubuntu is decent these days
19:24:10 <Sgeo> Although there is a lot of KDE4 hate here
19:24:22 <Gregor> That would be because KDE4 is made of fail.
19:24:28 <elliott> Kubuntu is basically dead.
19:24:39 <elliott> I think it will cease to be official in a few releases' time.
19:25:08 <Sgeo> What is this opinion based on?
19:25:27 <Sgeo> Last time I used Kubuntu was many many years ago. Things liked crashing
19:27:29 <Sgeo> If I install Desktop edition, I should be able to install Unity later if I want, right?
19:28:26 <elliott> I am establishing a policy: I refuse to answer any of Sgeo's questions that could be easily and objectively answered by Google.
19:28:31 <elliott> I suggest everyone else does the same.
19:29:40 <Sgeo> Does "Google it" count as an answer?
19:30:09 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
19:30:35 <elliott> Sgeo: And nor does linking you to goatse.
19:30:54 * Sgeo already did on your prompting
19:31:39 * Sgeo self-alarms at the "on your prompting" bit though
19:32:13 <elliott> Nee-naw, nee-naw, nee-naw, nee-naw. I am the external alarm actuator.
19:41:14 <Sgeo> Going to install Ubuntu
19:41:34 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:42:11 -!- SgeoN2 has joined.
19:48:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Use it to approximately interpret http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gravity programs! (Note: Don't.)
19:49:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Adding charge is literally a matter of defining *k* to be -1, then adding a charge number to point masses.
19:52:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: *\varepsilon! \epsilon is ugly. :-P
20:00:15 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:00:48 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
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20:01:06 <SgeoN2> How close could an approximate Grand iTunes interpreter get? For a hypothetical program where all point masses stay at 1, a naive approximator that just looks at a finite playing field gets it wildly wrong
20:01:37 <SgeoN2> Gravity. Not grand iTunes
20:01:52 <coppro> also, I always use \epsilon
20:02:38 <elliott> coppro: \epsilon is ugly and you are a horrible person.
20:02:51 <elliott> Admittedly redefining \epsilon to \varepsilon is better than kludging the name in all the time.
20:03:07 <elliott> http://code.google.com/p/libass/
20:03:48 <SgeoN2> So they want to subtitle my ass?
20:04:12 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN2, gravity is IIRC one of those things with asymptotic precision on a Turing machine.
20:05:45 * SgeoN2 wonders if the Ubuntu installer will putt the acupuncture=no thing
20:05:51 <SgeoN2> And tuck you autocorrect
20:10:16 * SgeoN2 wonders why there are 3 windows options in grub
20:10:36 <SgeoN2> And why 2 failed to work, and the third is creeping me out
20:10:59 <elliott> * SgeoN2 wonders if the Ubuntu installer will putt the acupuncture=no thing
20:11:01 <Phantom_Hoover> "Sgeo... come with us into the bootloader... come... join us..."
20:11:20 <SgeoN2> No, I don't want to do system recovery!
20:12:00 <SgeoN2> Ubuntu seems to have some trouble booting
20:12:22 <elliott> SgeoN2: Protip: Restart the installation, this time choose to use the entire hard disk.
20:12:26 <elliott> This will get rid of irritating Windows.
20:15:12 <SgeoN2> Some windows thing is attempting to repair disk errors, and saying it might take over an hour to complete
20:15:43 <SgeoN2> Chances of it obliterating GRUB?
20:16:26 <elliott> SgeoN2: 333% unless you ditch goddamn windows.
20:17:53 <elliott> SgeoN2 is too young to drink alcohols
20:17:59 <SgeoN2> Grub not obliterated. PH, in the past
20:18:12 <SgeoN2> Elliott, actually, I'm not
20:18:38 <elliott> There is no possible way you are 21.
20:19:18 <SgeoN2> Windows is working again
20:19:28 <SgeoN2> Now to try to get Ubuntu to work
20:19:57 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN2, the man eternally battling to keep two OSes afloat amid a sea of nostalgia.
20:21:00 <elliott> Wow, like Atlas if it was two OSes rather than the world.
20:21:04 <elliott> Also if Atlas was nostalgic.
20:21:25 <olsner> Also if Atlas was the one holding up the world.
20:21:47 <olsner> he didn't until someone made a book of maps in like the 1900's
20:22:10 <elliott> Also if olsner was beaten to death by a crow before he ever got the chance to say that.
20:22:32 <olsner> I've been told he did hold up the sky though, so "rather than the sky" would work
20:22:39 <elliott> olsner: the heavens, it seems
20:22:43 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/MAN_Atlante_fronte_1040572.JPG
20:22:49 <elliott> "Farnese Atlas, a 2nd century Roman copy of a Hellenistic work (Naples)"
20:22:52 <SgeoN2> Now, just need to edit the grub file
20:22:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You're not a crow.
20:23:06 <elliott> SgeoN2: You're not meant to do that. Use grub-update.
20:24:34 <SgeoN2> But I need to edit the damn thing!
20:25:02 <elliott> I wouldn't mind you asking things incessantly nearly as much if you FOLLOWED ADVICE WHEN GIVEN IT.
20:26:19 <SgeoN2> I did it. It just did its own useless thing
20:26:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, he's been tying himself to Windows for the sake of a single application for years now. If he wanted our input, he would have taken it.
20:27:08 <SgeoN2> Man update-grub doesn't hint at any options
20:27:48 * SgeoN2 tries man grub-mkconfig
20:27:54 <olsner> oh my... you were almost fun there for a short while, then you turned boring again
20:28:04 <elliott> SgeoN2: You are now on indefinite ignore until you cease doing at least one of these things: (1) Asking questions incessantly when they are not interesting and easily answerable by Google. (2) Ignoring advice when given it. When you cease doing at least one of these things, you may ignore-evade in any way you wish in order to communicate this fact to me. Do not evade the ignore for other reasons. The ignore will be reinstated if you start doing w
20:28:05 <elliott> hat you claimed to have ceased again.
20:28:34 <elliott> olsner: i blame you. also, society
20:28:40 <SgeoN2> But your damn "advice" is useless here!
20:29:15 <olsner> elliott: blame all you want
20:29:27 <elliott> olsner: did you not destroy Atlas
20:29:59 <olsner> nope, you already did long ago by giving him false attributes, I undestroyed him for you
20:30:17 <elliott> SgeoN2: To respond to your last pre-ignore messages, you are allowed to cease asking incessant questions of the type I described, instead of ceasing to follow advice when given.
20:31:48 <SgeoN2> Wait, what? Did Elliott just suggest that one option is to stop following given advice?
20:33:36 <SgeoN2> Somehow, I don't have a /boot/grub/menu.lst
20:33:50 <elliott> SgeoN2: No. (I feel it bad karma to tell you things without at least checking for replies.) The two options are:
20:33:58 <elliott> (1) Asking questions incessantly when they are not interesting and easily answerable by Google. (2) Ignoring advice when given it.
20:34:13 <elliott> I don't believe (2) is the best thing to stop doing, really, and it does not appear to be what you want to do.
20:35:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, well, it was more an accumulation.
20:35:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If Sgeo stops (1) he knows how to tell me. fungot is, after all, present.
20:36:14 <SgeoN2> Well, Google found me an answer of what to do to get update-grub to do what I want
20:37:26 <SgeoN2> Ah, it mentioned some package
20:38:16 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, apparently Golly didn't work properly on Fedora.
20:38:18 <SgeoN2> Is elliott aware that I didn't cause fungot to say that?
20:38:19 <fungot> SgeoN2: that would be ( load " /syntax-case") to " 6566676869707172"?? haha
20:38:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Since it assumed that an Ubuntu-only symbol was in libz.so.
20:38:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ubuntu-only symbol? Presumably Debian-only but still, I don't think they tend to change APIs...
20:39:14 <SgeoN2> Well, that was useless
20:39:16 <elliott> Oh, I thought fungot was relaying a Sgeo message. Heh.
20:39:17 <fungot> elliott: until i find the tendency to minimize attractive... in a sense... " fnord" would sound: really stupid.
20:39:25 <elliott> Fnord does indeed sound really stupid.
20:40:15 <elliott> I don't think Debian tends to change APIs, but whatever.
20:40:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Indeed! :-P
20:40:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Except that I imagine the compilation would have failed on Fedora instead...
20:40:37 <elliott> If you tried to compile it on Fedora.
20:40:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I'd assume they were using the prebuilt binary, but still...
20:41:40 <Phantom_Hoover> But the reason that binary wasn't compatible across distros was SHARED LIBRARIES!
20:44:19 <SgeoN2> Found what I needed on Ubuntu Wiki's grub2 page
20:44:22 -!- aloril has joined.
20:45:11 <pikhq> "720x400" WHY WOULD YOU EVER SCALE A VIDEO TO THAT RESOLUTION. EVER.
20:45:58 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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20:51:38 <olsner> "Are you obsessed with incest or something?" "Yeah, I have a sister."
20:51:53 <Vorpal> <elliott> Oh, I thought fungot was relaying a Sgeo message. Heh. <-- you have him on ignore or?
20:51:54 <fungot> Vorpal: stalin does, but that's easy to do and
20:52:08 <Vorpal> stalin vs. martians I presume
20:52:09 <elliott> <elliott> SgeoN2: You are now on indefinite ignore until you cease doing at least one of these things: (1) Asking questions incessantly when they are not interesting and easily answerable by Google. (2) Ignoring advice when given it. When you cease doing at least one of these things, you may ignore-evade in any way you wish in order to communicate this fact to me. Do not evade the ignore for other reasons. The ignore will be reinstated if you sta
20:52:09 <elliott> <elliott> hat you claimed to have ceased again.
20:52:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Ha, Stalin vs. Martians got terrible reviews: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_vs._Martians
20:53:21 <Vorpal> elliott, wasn't it done as a parody of bad games or something?
20:53:33 <elliott> <olsner> "Are you obsessed with incest or something?" "Yeah, I have a sister."
20:54:40 <elliott> <olsner> "Are you obsessed with incest or something?" "Yeah, I have a sister."
20:54:40 <elliott> <Vorpal> <elliott> Oh, I thought fungot was relaying a Sgeo message. Heh. <-- you have him on ignore or?
20:54:41 <fungot> elliott: 2 razor-x: ps ( thread-id 5)
20:54:56 <HackEgo> 201|<alise> So basically we're having an awful lot of very dangerous intercourse. <alise> Involving open wounds. <coppro> I'm going to take a shower
20:54:56 <HackEgo> 98|<fungot> ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i"
20:54:56 <HackEgo> 147|<ais523> (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?)
20:55:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover said it thrice.
20:55:51 <HackEgo> 15|<Lil`Cube> wouldn't that be considered pedophilia? <Quas_NaArt> No. They all go by stage names.
20:55:52 <HackEgo> 112|<Dylan> Warrigal is the Harlem Globe Frotter
20:55:53 <HackEgo> 125|Note that quote number 124 is not actually true.
20:56:06 <elliott> `quote 124 -- it's inevitable
20:56:10 <HackEgo> 124|<Warrigal> I cannot eat meat that isn't flat.
20:56:23 <elliott> !sh for i in $(seq 10); do echo '`quote; done
20:56:27 <elliott> Oh, wait, that won't work.
20:56:40 <olsner> haha, read that as "I cannot eat meat that's gone flat"
20:56:41 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.30719: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `''
20:56:49 <olsner> like you can only eat carbonated meat
20:56:56 <elliott> i want to try carbonated meat now
20:58:04 <olsner> remember, you can only eat until it goes flat
20:58:59 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:59:03 <olsner> "Indeed." is such a nice sentence
21:01:09 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:03:00 <Vorpal> elliott, btw in my storage room in minecraft. I hate signs for all chests. Most are stuff like "Dirt" "Cobblestone" or such. Some chests ended up containing more than one thing due to not having very much of anything. I Like the sign saying "Safety/TNT" :D
21:03:36 <Vorpal> (safety = various stuff like fences, ladders and such)
21:05:07 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah and I only realised the sillyness of that sign after I placed it
21:05:20 <elliott> *silliness, English nonsensicality ahoy!
21:06:20 <elliott> basically y->i when doing that :P
21:06:27 <Vorpal> also due to using one sign between 4 chests I have to use one row per chest. Which leads to stuff like "<- Au/Fe/Gem" (can't use C, because C could be coal as well as diamond. And coal is in another chest)
21:06:28 <elliott> when putting a suffix after it, I guess
21:08:30 <Vorpal> elliott, issue with using lightstone in the ceiling: the floor above looks rather silly
21:08:43 <Vorpal> hm perhaps I could somehow put them under wall for most of the time...
21:08:58 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, jack-o-lanterns are really nice and cheap
21:09:19 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but that depends on finding pumpkins. I have extremely few in this world.
21:09:41 <Vorpal> so far I found 5. There are about 3 more according to some mapping tools. Spread out in remote and hard to reach places
21:09:53 <Vorpal> that is, on the generated chunks
21:10:04 <Vorpal> presumably there are way more if I were to explore the whole world
21:10:47 <Vorpal> elliott, and I found a lot of easy to reach lightstone
21:11:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Hmm, true, pumpkins are rare, but often I start a game and quickly come across a patch of them.
21:11:33 <Sgeo> fungot, say hi
21:11:34 <fungot> Sgeo: ( although he was pretty much the only thing you can call me something different".
21:11:35 <Vorpal> elliott, wouldn't last very far for this castle
21:11:47 -!- aloril has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:14:03 <Sgeo> `ul (I will try to not ask easily-Googleable and stupid questions)S
21:14:48 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:15:02 <Sgeo> `echo I will try to not ask easily-Googleable and stupid questions
21:15:03 <HackEgo> I will try to not ask easily-Googleable and stupid questions
21:19:01 <Sgeo> `echo Would that count as a stupid question? Admittedly, not easily Googled, but easily log-determinable
21:19:02 <HackEgo> Would that count as a stupid question? Admittedly, not easily Googled, but easily log-determinable
21:19:51 <elliott> Also, you can stop that now, I can see your messages.
21:21:42 * Sgeo goes to install unity for some reason
21:21:53 <elliott> Sgeo: You really don't want Unity, but be my guest...
21:22:16 <elliott> Sgeo: It may be too slow, as well, depending on your graphics card.
21:22:33 <Sgeo> That reminds me, I should install the restricted drivers
21:23:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Unity is the one they're putting Wayland on, isn't it?
21:24:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What wrong reasons are there? As far as I can tell it's "X sucks", which it does.
21:24:29 <elliott> Also, they're putting Unity on Wayland.
21:24:33 <elliott> You got it the wrong way around.
21:24:39 <elliott> If so, there are no restricted drivers.
21:24:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What wrong reasons?
21:25:01 <Sgeo> elliott, some ATI card
21:25:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Unity exists for netbooks. It will exist for desktops because GNOME Shell is going to be awful.
21:25:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It could have been good but its flaws are too numerous, I feel. Perhaps they will fix it.
21:26:22 <Phantom_Hoover> So, to sum up: KDE, screwed; GNOME, to be screwed; XFCE, to join GNOME in its screwedness.
21:26:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. Say goodbye to the panel.
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21:26:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Xfce are probably too bass-ackwards to ever change anything. :)
21:27:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They're good enough in the WIMP system. The real problem is that GNOME's replacement is just stupid and no I won't tell you, google GNOME Shell.
21:28:07 <Sgeo> Why would they make GNOME Shell a default thing?
21:28:21 <Sgeo> Why not make it "Oh, here's this experimental thing we want to play with"?
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21:28:56 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:29:06 <elliott> Sgeo: Because they think it's better, and GNOME 3 is meant to revolutionise EVERYYYYTHIIIIIIIIIIING
21:29:14 <elliott> They don't see it as a plaything.
21:29:29 <Phantom_Hoover> So wait, if you want to do *anything*, you have to move the mouse to the corner and go into GUI subspace?
21:30:05 <Sgeo> Be back soonish
21:30:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:30:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's called buy a Lisp Machine. (And before you argue, note that @'s compatibility will hardly be better. All you need to code is an IRC client and a web browser really.)
21:30:41 <olsner> wtf: "move the mouse to the corner and go into GUI subspace?"
21:30:44 <olsner> what's that even mean?
21:31:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Existing systems :P
21:31:27 <elliott> olsner: Google GNOME Shell.
21:31:40 <elliott> olsner: Explaining it is a tedious process when a fancy video can impart its shittiness quiet adequately.
21:31:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Couldn't you write some @ code to interface with Ye Olde Filesystemes?
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21:33:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sure; Genera can already access filesystems. Well, Open Genera can via NFS; I'm sure Genera has NFS too. Or if not, it won't be too hard to code it. Probably. Since Genera actually has a filesystem.
21:34:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But yes, @ will have olde filesystem access sometime. It will not be all *that* integrated and I have no plans of making it so, but it will be functional.
21:34:18 <elliott> And I'm not going to support writing to NTFS :-)
21:35:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (You should buy a Lisp Machine anyway. Even if the shipping of a 3620 to London is $900.)
21:35:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (I suppose you could just buy a MacIvory, if you're lame and want the Lisp Machine to be an expansion card of a 68k Macintosh that you bring up Genera on by opening a Mac OS application.)
21:35:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (Those are cheaper to ship, I think, but more expensive. Probably cheaper overall.)
21:36:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Or you could just dedicate a partition to Ubuntu 7.10 with snap4 set up to run Open Genera for free.
21:36:30 <elliott> You could even set up X11 without a window manager and start Open Genera on boot. Seamless!
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21:48:49 <Sgeo> I can no longer mouse up to the top of the screen to click a tab :(
21:49:46 <elliott> And so Sgeo discovers Fitt's Law.
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21:53:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought that was "people can click big things more easily than small things".
21:54:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uhh... more refined than that. It's also "Things at the edges of the screen are easy to click because they're infinitely high/wide. Corners are the absolute easiest things to click, since they're both."
21:54:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's actually a formula with parameters, but it yields this result.
21:55:24 <pikhq> And it's fairly obvious when stated plainly — after all, you can overshoot the edges by any amount and still be at the edge.
21:56:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I'd heard of both, but I hadn't realised they were both the same law.
21:56:51 <Sgeo> Someone should make some thing where the cursor keeps moving past the edge
21:56:54 <Sgeo> Just to be a prick
21:58:05 <Vorpal> elliott, do you want to see some images of the castle I have been working on? Note: not finished yet. Took quite a lot of time what with the lower walls being obsidian.
21:58:28 <Vorpal> elliott, okay will take some. I believe it is several chunks in size
21:59:03 <elliott> Vorpal: ...aren't chunks huge?
21:59:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe it is 4x4 chunks or such
21:59:44 <Vorpal> elliott, photos will have to wait 10 minute or so. Nothing much to see atm...
21:59:55 <elliott> http://www.google.com/recaptcha/api/image?c=03AHJ_VutELgGQ23UEOR4UMo73E5ZtPQujY1tbYuonaG8cfhiJ7qzTRCPSV1nYXXP_9VmMqtEIR9tNvV2Jm5wXMrROAxdbuUf8WHxcanzn9ggGTl4ndwuvAhjeJ275UQdtPTxzguqat0U8VcALxAob8qvAfBgVeNi9DA
22:00:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt I could load it atm. Opening firefox = swaptrash
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22:00:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Awful, that's what.
22:01:00 <elliott> Vorpal: "A method used by Notch to divide infinite maps in the alpha release. They are 16*128*16 blocks."
22:01:21 <elliott> Vorpal: So, more than that!
22:01:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Haha, imagine if you ran the generator with a clean slate for every chunk.
22:01:46 <Vorpal> elliott, it is just that if you load the game while standing inside, it takes a few seconds until the remote walls show up
22:01:56 <elliott> "Terrain generated in infdev has the potential to be almost 235 petabytes, which is 240,640 terabytes, in size when stored in memory, due to the sheer size of the map (several times the surface area of the Earth)."
22:02:28 <elliott> Vorpal: It appears the world is not actually infinite.
22:02:44 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway: long term goal: make ground floor obsidian as well. Due to the size that is a long term goal. it has been done around the doors however
22:02:45 <elliott> "The world folder may have up to 64 subfolders, each with up to 64 additional subfolders each."
22:03:00 <elliott> Probably coordinates are 64-bit or something.
22:03:10 <elliott> Vorpal: And you stay in this thing every night?
22:03:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not sure of the size. But I think it is like 50x30 or something like that
22:03:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well nah, peaceful *still* so I build on it
22:03:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh come on, disable peaceful :P
22:03:54 <Vorpal> elliott, but that is the plan. Going to build defences outside. I have a catus farm going near the beech outside
22:03:54 <elliott> Vorpal: You have no excuse by now.
22:04:04 <elliott> Vorpal: There is no way anything could get inside that castle :P
22:04:18 <Vorpal> elliott, excuse: stairs into place are not well protected. Think of creepers
22:04:49 <Vorpal> elliott, also yes spiders could still jump on top. Which is where I'm building the second floor atm (stone. Why stone.... smelting cobblestone all the time...)
22:05:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Creepers haven't got that much patience :P
22:05:05 <Vorpal> (it looked better but I'm starting to regret the decision...)
22:05:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Make sure to build a spire all the way to the top.
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22:05:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Make a spiral staircase that finishes at the absolute top with, say, a 4x4 platform. You know you want to.
22:05:59 <elliott> Well, maybe absolute top but one, so you can have protecting walls on the outside so you don't fall off.
22:06:06 <elliott> Also you probably want walls around the staircase in case you fall.
22:06:12 -!- wareya has joined.
22:06:15 <elliott> And I don't have to do any work either!
22:07:21 <elliott> Vorpal: (Or just use a vertical boat.)
22:07:27 <elliott> Also build it out of OBSIDIAN because that's PRACTICAL.
22:07:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Eventually your castle will be so big that you'll have to navigate it with the Nether.
22:08:11 <Vorpal> elliott, btw next time I build something like this I will use a small obsidian tower, maybe 10 high. Then build a fort on top of that. Would look improbable. But less obsidian needed
22:08:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Hey, put minecarts in the Nether and have, like, signs at various places of interest. That would eliminate the need to build underground railways, and it'd be faster, too.
22:08:19 <Vorpal> and a misplaced obsidian HURTS to correct
22:08:58 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I plan on a moat of fire and cactus around (fire using netherstone, of which I have *two* chests filled).
22:09:18 <Vorpal> but getting lava would take longer
22:09:47 <Vorpal> elliott, oh btw I build this around a nether portal.
22:09:51 <elliott> Vorpal: How about just hoping for a Nether biome and building inside that :P
22:10:04 <elliott> Vorpal: (Nether biome = huge solid cube, as you know.)
22:10:11 <elliott> You'd just need a door to the inside :P
22:10:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: a (Nether biome)
22:10:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, like heather. Only less so
22:11:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, buy the game :P
22:11:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's only £9 :P
22:11:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I got some piece of bank-related plastic in the post yesterday.
22:15:06 <Vorpal> hm. How to build a protected dock
22:15:25 <Vorpal> you can't completely close it. placing a door on a square = no water on it
22:15:42 <Vorpal> thus, how do I build a secure dock connected to this house?
22:16:51 <elliott> Vorpal: You mean, water couldn't flow past the door?
22:17:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps I can get money from it. But is it electric money?
22:17:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean that it will create a hole
22:17:13 <elliott> Vorpal: Can enemies pass through a 1x1x1 hole on the ground?
22:17:14 <Vorpal> let me take a screenshot of the effect
22:17:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe spiders could
22:17:27 <elliott> Vorpal: If not: Let there be a hole with water flowing through on the "ground level". Board the rest up.
22:17:34 <elliott> Vorpal: OK, then, can spiders destroy a 1x1x1 block?
22:17:54 <Phantom_Hoover> It also says "Mr", and then my real name, which shows that it's from a bank.
22:17:56 <elliott> Vorpal: If not: Have an easily-destroyed block. Destroy it to open the "door". Put it back afterwards.
22:18:06 <Vorpal> elliott, and a boat need 2x3 to pass through (2 wide, 3 high)
22:18:13 <Vorpal> elliott, or perhaps 2x2
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22:18:24 <Vorpal> it can't go through 1 wide anyway
22:18:36 <Vorpal> and you will need it 3 high to get out
22:18:46 <Vorpal> not sure if 2 high is enough if you are sitting down
22:18:56 <elliott> Vorpal: OK, how about accepting that the dock might get invaded, and just protecting the house with a door?
22:19:06 <elliott> Then just prepare to FIGHT when you open the door to the dock.
22:19:17 <elliott> Just leave the smallest hole you can for boats in the actual dock.
22:19:40 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway my minecart system is secure. :D
22:19:40 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean, if it's next to a sea, I doubt you'll see anything swim there and then go through the small hole.
22:19:46 <elliott> Vorpal: And then stay there for the rest of the night.
22:19:52 <Vorpal> elliott, skeletons can walk under water iirc
22:19:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Besides, you could easily fight it off.
22:19:57 <Vorpal> elliott, and won't burn then
22:21:05 <elliott> Vorpal: I still think you should build a minecart system inside a big block of Nether.
22:21:08 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I would build some of those TNT defense cannons except they seem to have a tendency to sometimes explode in the wrong way (that is, destroying the canon)...
22:21:10 <elliott> Vorpal: (Overground Nether has monsters)
22:21:15 <elliott> Vorpal: That'd be faster and more fun!
22:21:58 <Vorpal> elliott, there is no over-ground in nether. Also not all stations I want to get to have portals. Even though I tried they just end up pointing elsewhere
22:22:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but I mean...
22:22:33 <elliott> You know how you sometimes spawn on a really huge, really tall block in Nether?
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22:26:44 <Vorpal> aargh there is a cave system there!?
22:26:51 <Vorpal> just 20 meters from my fort
22:26:58 <Vorpal> lots of coal and iron. Nice
22:27:06 <Vorpal> oh well. Will need to do something about it
22:27:48 <Vorpal> elliott, preparing to upload screenshots
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22:30:19 * Sgeo wants to boot from ISO (Note that I'm not asking if it's possible: I'm about to Google)
22:31:21 <Vorpal> elliott, first: water + door = http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/2010-11-16_23.18.41.png
22:31:30 <elliott> Sgeo: There is support in GRUB 2.
22:31:35 <elliott> Sgeo: But the OS has to support it.
22:31:47 <Vorpal> elliott, see what I mean?
22:31:48 <elliott> Sgeo: Think about it -- the OS, even if its kernel is loaded, has to find where all the the files are on its /. So it has to mount it.
22:32:01 <elliott> Sgeo: And it isn't going to go mount another partition and look for an ISO. (Not unless you added support for that.)
22:32:14 <elliott> Sgeo: Some Linux distro does it.
22:32:36 <elliott> Vorpal: But does it work if you open it?
22:32:41 <Vorpal> elliott, there are those that boot from disk images indeed. Never heard of booting from the iso case though
22:32:45 <Vorpal> elliott, it stays a hole
22:32:45 <elliott> Vorpal: If not, can the boat survive a bumpy start like that?
22:33:00 <Vorpal> elliott, and well, I know it can survive with *one* side that way
22:33:04 <Vorpal> it is the standard dock
22:33:30 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway it would be too low to get throygh... Hm can you stack doors I wonder...
22:33:35 <elliott> (Eh? I don't get it. But okay.)
22:34:46 <elliott> TOPIC #esoteric :http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
22:34:48 <Vorpal> elliott, you would suffocate by getting your head in the stone. The door is 2 blocks high. the lower half is in the "water" (or rather: it isn't... thanks to the screwy physics). So one block above the water
22:34:50 <elliott> TOPIC #esoteric :http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | 10 MAYBE 30 ELSE 15 : 15 MAYBE 40 ELSE 20 : 20 MAYBE 10 ELSE 25 : 25 MAYBE 40 ELSE 30 : 30 MAYBE 10 ELSE 35 : 35 MAYBE 20 ELSE 40 : 40 MAYBE 20 ELSE 45 : 45 MAYBE 30 ELSE 10
22:35:31 <Vorpal> elliott, when you sit in boat your head is in block 2 above the water I think
22:35:45 <Vorpal> thus: suffocation risk
22:35:50 <Vorpal> or just not getting through
22:35:58 <Vorpal> elliott, fort photos: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/fort/
22:36:17 <Vorpal> elliott, btw did I mention the spherical pano from mine craft that I was working on. Should get that done
22:36:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I thought "Fort Fuck You Mine Is bigger"
22:37:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, walls are dark blue
22:37:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, err the stuff below is below the floor
22:37:38 <Vorpal> below the dark blue walls
22:38:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and the stone above the lower level is just the start of the walls for the second level
22:38:49 <elliott> Vorpal: wat @ http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/fort/2010-11-16_23.12.46.png
22:38:59 <elliott> Or is that the second floor?
22:39:03 <Vorpal> elliott, that is the second one
22:39:13 <Vorpal> elliott, and the stairs up to the future third one
22:39:17 <elliott> http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/fort/2010-11-16_23.13.04.png What's that pathway for?
22:39:46 <Vorpal> elliott, it marks where my mine cart system goes. So I could plan it out. And know where to turn.
22:39:54 <Vorpal> elliott, and also figure out how deep below the water it needed to go
22:40:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Please tell me your fort has a way to go underground to the minecart system.
22:40:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, it is no fun if you get flooded while building
22:40:12 <Vorpal> elliott, oh indeed. It is on the first floor
22:40:13 <elliott> Vorpal: And then all you have to do is build forts at every stop, and you NEVER HAVE TO LEAVE YOUR HOUSE.
22:40:40 <Phantom_Hoover> You could run an underground system of tunnels and build up from that!
22:41:05 <Vorpal> elliott, actually the next stop (this fort is an end station currently) is into a cavern/mine. The upper part and very closed off. There are doors to the actual caverns from there
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22:41:57 <Vorpal> elliott, and the next stop after that is the spawn point. And then a house next to the farming area. Then the end stop at the other end, which is just outside the first deep cavern system I found.
22:42:05 <Vorpal> should be more built in
22:42:08 <Vorpal> when I get around to it
22:42:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you have such a cool surname and you're WASTING IT
22:42:48 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I believe the sea is at level 60 or something. And the first leg from the fort of the mine cart system is at level 40. So quite deep
22:42:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh? What is it?
22:43:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, MacHover?
22:44:03 <Sgeo> Grr at screencast with scrollbars
22:44:25 <Sgeo> The video is too large for the browser, so I see scrollbars
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22:45:30 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway. I'm not sure how much time it would take to build the second floor roof. I think the third floor will actually be some castle-like thingies. Towers in the corners. Open to the air. Perhaps the entire third floor dotted with light stones? Hm
22:45:41 <Vorpal> and also provide nice light for the level below
22:46:46 <Vorpal> elliott, like the idea?
22:47:18 <Vorpal> elliott, going to work on pano now
22:47:44 <Vorpal> hugin: error while loading shared libraries: libexiv2.so.6: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
22:47:58 <Vorpal> I'm going to have to recompile it
22:49:14 <Vorpal> sent 25 bytes received 290285 bytes 25244.35 bytes/sec
22:49:14 <Vorpal> total size is 15800000 speedup is 54.42
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22:53:09 <Phantom_McHoover> Vorpal, incidentally, did you make the obsidian by casting lava?
22:54:44 <elliott> <Vorpal> hugin: error while loading shared libraries: libexiv2.so.6: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
22:54:47 <elliott> Hey, shared libraries suck.
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22:55:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_McHoover, I used water on still lava yes
22:58:50 <gm|lap> someone called donald needs to make a minecraft server
22:58:55 <gm|lap> and call it McDonald's
22:59:20 <gm|lap> extra kudos if it's donald knuth
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23:14:37 <Sgeo> For no good reason, I am trying again
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23:20:28 <Vorpal> elliott, fizzie: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/minecraft_pano_test1.jpg
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23:21:01 <Vorpal> also needs to be straightened a bit
23:21:20 <Vorpal> this goes 360 degrees to the top
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23:27:01 <fizzie> I have that Descent-level-to-Blender exporting thing; maybe I could construct a Minecraft-to-Blender version too. (Though I'm sure there already are ways to render Minecraft worlds with third-party toolery.)
23:28:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is but they don't render the same mostly
23:28:34 <Vorpal> no clouds. Mostly shows ores instead
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23:32:10 <elliott> http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/minecraft_pano_test1.jpg
23:32:14 <elliott> minecraft has weird geometry
23:32:59 <Vorpal> elliott, blame 360° in left-right and 180° in up-down
23:33:04 <Vorpal> elliott, just due to panorama.
23:33:07 <elliott> Vorpal: like the lands are tilted
23:33:17 <Vorpal> elliott, minecraft does however have strange *geography*
23:33:22 <Vorpal> but not strange geometry
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23:34:03 <Vorpal> elliott, that is with the new generator. You seen the location before btw
23:34:15 <elliott> Vorpal: It's always winter in a winter biome
23:34:15 <Sgeo> Last time I played with VirtualBox, I remember having less than a fun time switching virtual CDs
23:34:20 <elliott> Always spring/summer in the ... regular biome
23:34:32 <elliott> Just right click the CD icon and pick a new one.
23:35:10 <Vorpal> elliott, well notch might add seasons
23:35:16 <Vorpal> it would be cool if he did
23:35:23 <Vorpal> need to be short ones though
23:35:27 <Vorpal> or it would get boring
23:35:28 <elliott> Vorpal: I think I read about plans for weather.
23:35:40 <Vorpal> well weather is shorter scale
23:35:40 <elliott> Vorpal: On the Biomes wiki page or something.
23:35:55 <Sgeo> Ooh, VirtualBox has 3d accel
23:36:04 <elliott> Sgeo: "Good luck with that."
23:36:16 <Vorpal> elliott, but I mean. Winter for a few hundred days = boring
23:36:20 <elliott> Sgeo: I doubt Active Worlds is intensive enough to require it anyway :P
23:36:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, it would take a whole 33 hours :P
23:36:46 * Sgeo wants to try various Linux distros.. and any 3d effects they might have
23:36:47 <Vorpal> elliott, 33 whole *playing* hours
23:36:53 <elliott> Sgeo: Compiz is useless crap.
23:37:01 <Vorpal> elliott, which is a bit longer. You don't play for 33 hours straight
23:37:23 <elliott> Vorpal: I still think you should be able to let the game time go on unattended; if you, say, get into a shelter, it'd be safe.
23:37:49 <elliott> Like, click "start unattended", Minecraft exits, next time you start it up, it simulates the world for as many seconds as it's been down.
23:37:55 <Vorpal> elliott, you can. open inventory. Switch away
23:38:08 <elliott> Vorpal: That doesn't work if you shut down your computer.
23:38:21 <Vorpal> elliott, ah you are doing something wrong there :P
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23:39:17 <Sgeo> This installation is supposed to reset my network connection
23:39:40 <elliott> Sgeo: You are using the one from the repositories right?
23:39:46 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314.
23:39:50 <elliott> Not downloading it manually?
23:39:51 <Sgeo> elliott, right now I'm on Windows
23:40:08 <elliott> Sgeo: Trust me, you either want Debian or Ubuntu.
23:40:19 <elliott> The others suck immensely :P
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23:41:15 <Sgeo_> I remember OpenSUSE looking cool in one screenshot I saw
23:41:41 <sshc> Archlinux is great too
23:41:44 <Vorpal> you can make any distro look like any other in general :P
23:42:03 <elliott> Sgeo_: You do realise that default configurations are irrelevant?
23:42:09 <elliott> Sgeo_: You do realise that flashiness is IRRELEVANT?
23:42:49 <elliott> sshc: what Arch would like to be is nice enough. what Arch actually is, is a community of people who think that small monospaced fonts in a semi-transparent terminal constitutes "minimalism"
23:43:29 <sshc> I like small monospaced fonts in a tabbed tiling WM.
23:43:29 <Sgeo_> Yes, adding CDs in VirtualBox is still a prick
23:43:34 <sshc> I use Debian to flush my toilets for me.
23:43:42 <sshc> Unfortunately, it doesn't always work.
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23:45:03 <elliott> sshc: Have fun with anything that uses the "python" executable inexplicably not working because your distro is run by people who think that the "future" involves breaking things for the sake of higher version numbers.
23:45:05 <Vorpal> elliott, actually that thing about small monospaced font in semi-transparent isn't default. Would need to be setup.
23:45:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Arch users are all about setup!
23:45:26 <Vorpal> elliott, and every distro with a reasonable sized user base will have idiots
23:45:29 <elliott> Vorpal: In fact, their average day involves installing a new window manager and configuring it to be pretty but impossible to use.
23:45:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Sure, but have you SEEN the Arch forums?
23:45:40 <elliott> They're almost worse than Ubuntu's!
23:45:45 <Vorpal> elliott, no I'm not interested in forums :P
23:46:00 <elliott> Vorpal: At least the idiots on the Ubuntu forums aren't package maintainers.
23:46:11 <Vorpal> elliott, There was one guy who packaged lots of ocaml stuff on aur for example. And frama-c/why
23:46:21 <Vorpal> elliott, so obviously there are smart people out there
23:46:40 <Vorpal> (as in, I'm not the only smart arch user)
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23:46:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Sure... but they have reached critical mass.
23:47:36 <elliott> on the territory of the bozos
23:47:39 <Vorpal> squatter? Not the domain sense presumably?
23:48:26 <Vorpal> elliott, EISDOWNSTAIRS ETOOFAR
23:48:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, a few years ago the sane developers decided to ignore Gentoo users' complaints because they were usually clueless ricers and because the maintainers generally didn't give too much of a shit about how badly they broke stuff.
23:48:54 <Vorpal> elliott, EMINECRAFTPRECLUDESRUNNINGBROWSER
23:49:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Nowadays, it's Arch. And the maintainers to ignore are instead AUR packagers, meaning that the quality is even lower.
23:50:08 <Vorpal> I would probably use gentoo if I could skip the compilation time
23:50:33 <Vorpal> of course, only debian stable would be more outdated...
23:50:47 <Vorpal> at least arch has quite recent packages
23:50:55 <elliott> Vorpal: I love how Gentoo manages to be bleeding-edge in its sheer unreliability and dinosauric in its outdatedness.
23:51:21 <Vorpal> elliott, it used to be much more up-to-date in stabe
23:51:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, the answer to all this is to use Kitten. Which, I swear, is being worked on.
23:51:38 <Vorpal> elliott, rolling release?
23:51:48 <Vorpal> elliott, also it needs to package what I want
23:51:52 <Vorpal> which is quite a lot of packages
23:51:55 <elliott> Vorpal: What do you want? :P
23:52:09 <Vorpal> $ ls /var/lib/pacman/local/ | wc -l
23:52:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Making a package should be really trivial if anything isn't packaged, for what it's worth. But I'll include the obvious stuff.
23:52:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I will pastebin the list :P
23:52:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Firefox, for instance (note: it won't be called Firefox because Mozilla are jerks :P)
23:52:34 <Vorpal> elliott, here: http://sprunge.us/PiCK
23:52:52 <elliott> I mean, sure, I could just refrain from making ANY MODIFICATION AT ALL, but I'd also be distributing not-really-Free software if I did that.
23:52:53 <Vorpal> elliott, package is called firefox here, but browser is called namoroka
23:53:03 <elliott> Vorpal: I'll just call it Iceweasel, since everyone else does. Probably.
23:53:15 <Vorpal> elliott, well, here it uses the code name for it
23:53:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Namoroka will change by the next Firefox, which is vaguely irritating.
23:53:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Man, you have aalib installed.
23:53:41 <Vorpal> elliott, huh. I have no clue
23:53:54 <Vorpal> Required By : gstreamer0.10-good-plugins mplayer
23:54:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, note that that installed package count is inflated; for instance, you won't need libraries most of the time, due to static linking.
23:54:07 <Vorpal> elliott, somewhat crazy packaging perhaps
23:54:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Of course the "libfoo" packages will include the libraries for development.
23:54:20 <Vorpal> elliott, they do on arch
23:54:29 <elliott> Vorpal: What does on Arch?
23:54:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Need the libraries?
23:54:48 <Vorpal> elliott, libfoo includes what is needed to compile stuff against them
23:54:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but static linking. You don't *need* libfoo.a at any point other than linking, see?
23:54:56 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you can't do completely static
23:54:58 <elliott> Vorpal: But you won't see a runtime dependency on libfoo.
23:55:03 <Vorpal> elliott, everything loading plugins will
23:55:14 <elliott> Vorpal: I will probably include a dynamic linker for such programs.
23:55:17 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:55:27 <Vorpal> elliott, openoffice can't be linked statically
23:55:33 <elliott> Vorpal: The stali people are working on a "dynamic linker" that actually injects the libfoo.a; I might use that when it gets working.
23:55:50 <elliott> Vorpal: OpenOffice isn't really supported :P But sure, it's not "hard" to include a dynamic linker if you really need it.
23:55:57 <Vorpal> elliott, also what if there is an urgent security fix in glibc. Have fun recompiling everything. (Never mind that you would have to anyway due to glibc stupidity)
23:56:06 <sshc> So I heard that Debian users have collaborated on designing a stimulated universe in which pleasure is more intense and suffering doesn't exist.
23:56:07 <Vorpal> (other libraries aren't as stupid)
23:56:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Firstly, see your parenthical remark. Secondly, I don't use glibc.
23:56:29 <Vorpal> elliott, if libpng needs security updates: everything linked against it would be recompiled
23:56:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, but it's not that big of a deal.
23:56:56 <elliott> Vorpal: I can easily automate that. And I'll probably offer binary diffs for packages.
23:56:59 <Vorpal> elliott, might be for stuff like zlib which half the system links against
23:57:24 <Vorpal> elliott, getting the update out would take a while. Unless you get a compile farm
23:57:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Fun fact: pcc compiles things really quickly.
23:57:54 <Vorpal> elliott, and how is runtime performance?
23:57:58 <Vorpal> elliott, compared to clang and to gcc
23:58:03 <sshc> Quite wonderful, sir.
23:58:10 <elliott> Vorpal: pcc is good at optimisation. Not mega-clang-optimisation, but it's good.
23:58:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Competitive with gcc -O2, I'd say. But I'm going to compile the system with -Os, because it tends to be faster than any other kind of optimisation.
23:58:32 <Gregor> sshc: Have you written our generic pluggable-rendering version of WebKit and text-based browser yet?
23:58:38 <elliott> Vorpal: pcc isn't some newcomer, remember; it's been developed from 1970 onwards. :P
23:58:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, stuff that can't be done with pcc will be done with clang or gcc. gcc will definitely be a package.
23:58:59 <Vorpal> elliott, might want to do libc.a or such with clang then. And possibly stuff like compression libraries. (zlib and such).
23:59:05 <Gregor> No, it's been developed from 1970 to ~1990, then 2009ish onwards :P
23:59:25 <Sgeo_> elliott, I would obviously prefer to install from repos where possible, but what's so terrible about not doing so in the case of VirtualBox?
23:59:25 <sshc> Yes! However I formatted my harddrive.
23:59:27 <elliott> Vorpal: libc is going to be either dietlibc if things will work with it, or uClibc.
23:59:35 <Sgeo_> Or is it a general "You should be installing from repos" thing?
23:59:37 <Vorpal> elliott, having a fast strlen would be quite nice and so on :P
23:59:40 <elliott> Vorpal: uClibc must be built with gcc. But I got dietlibc compiling with pcc with just a few patches.
23:59:55 <elliott> Vorpal: I think dietlibc has an assembly strlen. I forget.
00:00:00 <elliott> Sgeo_: I was just checking.
00:00:23 <Vorpal> elliott, well sure. But in general using a better optimising compiler than pcc for libc might be a good idea
00:00:38 <elliott> Vorpal: " The only optimization added so far is a multiple-register-class graph-coloring register allocator, which may be one of the best register allocators today. Conversion to SSA format is also implemented, but not yet the phi function. Not too difficult though, after that strength reduction is high on the list." --pcc, 2007
00:00:45 <elliott> Gregor: It's actually 2007.
00:00:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Since 2007 it'll have gotten better. pcc isn't some weakling :P
00:00:59 <Gregor> elliott: Probably later than 1990 too.
00:01:25 <elliott> Gregor: Admittedly, it only started running on x86 in 2007 or so when it got picked back up. :-)
00:01:29 <elliott> Nobody ever bothered to port it before.
00:01:42 <Vorpal> elliott, true. But you want the best for code that contains many performance sensitive functions. And that is used by virtually everything
00:01:47 <elliott> It was imported into OpenBSD and NetBSD in September 2007.
00:01:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, true. I will probably measure stuff.
00:02:06 <Vorpal> elliott, of course you should
00:02:09 <Gregor> elliott: Hm, I thought that the x86 BSDs and AT&T Unix had a pcc-based CC at the time ... I guess not.
00:02:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Note that it is perfectly possible to use a different libc for a single application, if you really wanted to for some strange reason.
00:02:21 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway good luck geting openoffice linked statically
00:02:26 <Vorpal> I don't think it is possible
00:02:29 <elliott> Gregor: Perhaps they did and the code was never released. But I think a version of BSD predating x86 Unix switched to gcc...
00:02:31 <sshc> elliott: Debian is far superior from Archlinux, because its packages are always from the good ol' days.
00:02:41 <pikhq> elliott: BTW, VirtualBox's *OpenGL* acceleration "just works".
00:02:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I need openoffice btw. Too many people at university uses formats like that
00:02:54 <pikhq> elliott: The Direct3D stuff is painful.
00:02:55 <sshc> You're a mormon.
00:03:01 <elliott> sshc: (I ran sid the other day and it had packages that were a WEEK old!)
00:03:06 <pikhq> elliott: Especially because you need to install it in safe mode for it to work.
00:03:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Indeed. (Ever tried AbiWord?)
00:03:23 <Vorpal> elliott, last I needed to work with a *.xls
00:03:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Gnumeric can use *.xls :P
00:03:33 <Vorpal> elliott, and the day before that a *.ppt
00:03:51 <elliott> Vorpal: Okay, for that you need OpenOffice.
00:03:58 <Sgeo_> What about LibreOffice?
00:03:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: The solution is to send the next person who sends you one a bill for Microsoft Office.
00:04:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: Maybe that'll give the fuckers a clue.
00:04:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Sgeo_ actually made a pertinent remark that it'll be LibreOffice I package.
00:04:18 <elliott> Seeing as OpenOffice is dead :P
00:04:27 <Vorpal> elliott, well, what presentation program on linux then?
00:04:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I use go-openoffice
00:04:33 <pikhq> (oh, and, of course, don't actually buy Office with it; instead, get a new computer.)
00:04:38 <elliott> Vorpal: OpenOffice died. It's now called LibreOffice.
00:04:58 <elliott> Vorpal: (tl;dr Oracle took over Sun, OpenOffice devs went "NO FUCK THAT", created The Document Foundation to develop LibreOffice which is OpenOffice.)
00:05:19 <elliott> Vorpal: (Then Oracle kicked all the relevant people (everyone) off the OO.o council.)
00:05:33 <pikhq> Technically, OO.o exists still. However, everyone but Oracle has gone "fuck you".
00:05:35 <elliott> On September 28, 2010, some members of the OpenOffice.org Project formed a new group called The Document Foundation, and made available a rebranded fork of OpenOffice.org, provisionally named LibreOffice. The Foundation stated that it will coordinate and oversee the development of LibreOffice. Oracle was invited to become a member of the Document Foundation, and was also asked to donate the OpenOffice.org brand to the project.[39]
00:05:41 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, I have been using this variant: http://go-oo.org/
00:05:44 <elliott> Vorpal: "Go-oo improvements are being merged in LibreOffice. Improvements done in other forks are expected to be incorporated as well.[43][44]"
00:05:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Ubuntu uses Go-oo, FWIW.
00:06:02 <elliott> Vorpal: The reason Go-oo stuff wasn't in before is because Sun were being dicks about it.
00:06:07 * Sgeo_ misread that as "Then Oracle killed"
00:06:08 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:06:23 <elliott> "Canonical, Novell and Red Hat plan to include LibreOffice in forthcoming versions of their operating systems.[2]"
00:06:43 <gm|lap> in other words they've at least tried to turn the tables?
00:07:03 <Vorpal> elliott, seems libreoffice is "beta"
00:07:12 <elliott> Vorpal: It's not really beta :P
00:07:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:07:17 <elliott> They just haven't made "1.0" yet.
00:07:23 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I was a bit surprised at that
00:07:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, Kitten will package most stuff. But of course the priority is stuff that doesn't suck.
00:07:49 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's forked from the OO.o development tree, rather than the latest version.
00:07:57 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. I should install some package you won't ever package
00:08:14 <Vorpal> ooh. php. But wait, I don't want that.
00:08:19 <Vorpal> no the price would be too large
00:08:20 <elliott> Vorpal: You are free to run the few commands it'll take to create a Kitten package from that and I will probably maintain it :P
00:08:30 <pikhq> He'll probably package PHP eventually.
00:08:51 <elliott> Vorpal: BTW, compilations will probably be done on my local box to start with. By the time it becomes relevant, I'll hopefully have a better box by then.
00:08:51 <Sgeo_> elliott, so no PSOX, then
00:09:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm sure 4 cores at ~2.4 GHz and 12 GiB of RAM should suffice to build everything with *reasonable* speed :P
00:09:44 <elliott> pikhq: I *might* package PHP. :P
00:09:47 <Vorpal> elliott, like by the time you want to build libreoffice?
00:10:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, y'know what? You're the official LibreOffice maintainer. What an honour!
00:10:14 <Vorpal> elliott, alas my system is unable to compile it :P
00:10:17 <elliott> Vorpal: MySQL I... will probably avoid packaging because it's Oracle.
00:10:25 <elliott> Vorpal: (I could avoid packaging it because it sucks, but Oracle is a better excuse.)
00:10:29 <Vorpal> elliott, hm need to replace virtualbox now that it is oracle...
00:10:40 <Vorpal> but no good replacement. (qemu just doesn't cut it)
00:10:44 <elliott> Vorpal: I think VirtualBox can stay until it's forked or something X-P
00:11:01 <elliott> Vorpal: But MySQL has perfectly cromulent alternatives already.
00:11:17 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, thing is I need features from the closed variant. Of course they will probably be implemented soon once it is forked
00:11:39 * Sgeo_ vaguely remembers krecipe asking whether to use MySQL, PostgreSQL, or SQLite. No end-user of a recipe program should need to make such a decision
00:11:43 <elliott> Vorpal: That's an example of why the "Open Free!" / "Better Version $$$" model sucks.
00:11:46 <pikhq> Oracle apparently renamed StarOffice to "Oracle Open Office".
00:11:55 <elliott> Vorpal: The corporation can hold back development because it doesn't align with their profits.
00:12:08 <Vorpal> elliott, open free / pay for support works much better
00:12:10 <elliott> * Sgeo_ vaguely remembers krecipe asking whether to use MySQL, PostgreSQL, or SQLite. No end-user of a recipe program should need to make such a decision
00:12:13 <pikhq> Yes, they make OpenOffice.org and Oracle Open Office.
00:12:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Indeed! Now suddenly your software is so intuitive that nobody needs support any more.
00:12:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, what was star office?
00:12:31 <Sgeo_> elliott, I... are you telling me that that wasn't just that one program?
00:12:32 <elliott> Whoops! You have an incentive to make it need support.
00:12:34 <Sgeo_> And it was years ago
00:12:38 <Vorpal> wasn't it just an old name for openoffice?
00:12:42 <Vorpal> before it became open?
00:12:51 <elliott> Vorpal: It's also the commercial version of OpenOffice.
00:13:11 <Vorpal> elliott, so what did it contain that openoffice didn't?
00:13:14 <pikhq> Vorpal: Star Office:OpenOffice.org::Netscape::Mozilla
00:13:28 <Sgeo_> pikhq, since when did anyone have to pay for Netscape?
00:13:44 <pikhq> Sgeo_: While back.
00:14:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, errhm. what does the : count signify?
00:14:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, considering that it varies over the line
00:14:30 <Vorpal> elliott, he used *two* the last time
00:14:44 <elliott> Normally the :: would be set off by spaces.
00:14:45 <Vorpal> but that means it didn't make much sense
00:15:20 <Sgeo_> Vorpal si easily confused by tyops1 mahahaha
00:15:32 <Vorpal> not that sort of typos
00:15:39 <pikhq> Sgeo_: In fact, Netscape has only been a free browser for 12 years.
00:16:02 <Vorpal> elliott, btw. did you see that about panorama comic bringing a new meaning to "no forth wall"?
00:16:08 <pikhq> The exact same instant that the source code was released.
00:16:51 <elliott> 1/0 is not less than three.
00:17:01 <Vorpal> elliott, also 5th wall. Would that be when the comic character is not only aware of the author and reader. But aware of that they are just in the mind of the author and have no "free will"?
00:17:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, I -- was going to say something in this sentence.
00:17:12 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, also 5th wall. Would that be when the comic character is not only aware of the author and reader. But aware of that they are just in the mind of the author and have no "free will"?
00:17:20 <elliott> http://www.undefined.net/1/0/
00:17:30 <pikhq> Nor is it more than three.
00:17:49 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, but I meant taken even further
00:17:57 <elliott> Vorpal: It is hard to take it even further than that :P
00:18:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Considering at the end the author has convinced himself that the characters actually exist after they themselves doubt it.
00:18:54 <Sgeo_> Ghanny makes an argument that the author is no more real than they are, iirc
00:18:55 <Vorpal> elliott, well, convinced himself in the comic
00:19:02 <Vorpal> elliott, we don't know if he did for real
00:19:04 <elliott> Vorpal: Pretty sure in real life :P
00:19:07 <elliott> Vorpal: He's crazy enough.
00:19:13 <Vorpal> elliott, that would be screwy
00:19:15 <elliott> Also a monotheist, which shows in a sequence of comics around 300 irritatingly.
00:19:59 <elliott> Here: http://www.undefined.net/1/0/9/994.gif
00:20:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Interestingly, GNU coreutils is both one of the things I least want to package and pretty high up the list of things I need to :P
00:20:55 <elliott> Vorpal: I'll bet anything there's hundreds of dependencies on gsed and gawk in the world.
00:21:10 <elliott> Vorpal: (Case in point: gmake.)
00:21:11 <Vorpal> elliott, but awk is not in coreutils?
00:21:14 <elliott> GNU make I *must* package :P
00:21:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Meh, who cares, it's all the same :P
00:21:31 <Vorpal> elliott, gmake, gawk and gsed are all outside. Yes you need them though
00:21:38 <elliott> Vorpal: At least OS X gets by without GNU coreutils, but even then its "make" is gmake.
00:21:40 <Vorpal> and probably coreutils too
00:21:48 <Sgeo_> elliott, Petitus calls the author out on the author pushing his views
00:21:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, OS X gets fine without them. Although iirc some OCaml stuff depended on gsed for some tiny little option (not joking).
00:22:09 <elliott> Vorpal: I can probably avoid the actual coreutils, though.
00:22:18 <Vorpal> elliott, you probably need /bin/sh to be bash too
00:22:22 <elliott> Sgeo_: But nobody seriously challenges him.
00:22:23 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot of stuff breaks when it isn't
00:22:26 <elliott> Vorpal: It isn't on Debian or Ubuntu.
00:22:30 <elliott> Vorpal: And hasn't been for years.
00:22:46 <Vorpal> elliott, yes and it breaks compiling stuff that uses bash syntax in make or configure
00:22:51 <Vorpal> elliott, they patch the packages :P
00:22:54 * Sgeo_ needs glowing retinas
00:22:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Used to, but dash is more compatible now.
00:23:00 <Vorpal> or to use another syntax
00:23:08 <elliott> Vorpal: But, uh, I'll probably ship something more compatible than dash.
00:23:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: Said packages need to be patched or raped.
00:23:10 <Vorpal> elliott, still happens for me every now and then
00:23:33 <pikhq> elliott: Bash 1? :P
00:23:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Perhaps Busybox's hush shell or something.
00:23:50 <elliott> Vorpal: The default shell will be pdksh, and at least GNU autotools will be satisfied with that.
00:24:02 <elliott> Vorpal: You can probably use zsh in place of bash most of the time, too. Of course bash will be a package.
00:24:10 <elliott> Well. It might not actually be pdksh.
00:24:23 <elliott> Probably one of the portable versions of OpenBSD's ksh, which is based on pdksh.
00:24:25 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Nitpicker.
00:24:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't like zsh :P
00:24:45 <pikhq> Actually, zsh in place of bash should "just work". Given that it pretends to be bash when argv[0] is bash.
00:24:49 <Vorpal> I actually like and use bash
00:24:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but it's more bloated than even bash :)
00:25:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, it doesn't support esoteric stuff that bash does
00:25:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: zsh is quite nice, if absurdly bloated.
00:25:08 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't recall bash being hard to build, so it'll probably be in there.
00:25:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, there was some weird thing, forgot what
00:25:23 <elliott> I use bash right now, but I'll just use ksh in Kitten; bash just happens to be Debian's default and I'm lazy :P
00:25:28 <pikhq> elliott: Fortunately, yeah, bash should be installable by your inst.
00:25:29 <elliott> I haven't even configured it.
00:25:35 <elliott> pikhq: I'm not using inst for this :P
00:25:42 <elliott> bash-4.1 emacs-23.2 nginx-0.8.53 ruby-1.9.2-p0
00:25:42 <elliott> CLC-INTERCAL-1.-94.-2 ick-0.-2.0.29 perl-5.12.2 zsh-4.3.10
00:25:42 <elliott> egobf-0.7.1 nasm-2.09.03 Python-2.7
00:25:57 <pikhq> Yes, but that kinda demonstrates that it's at least *sane* to package.
00:25:58 <Nitpicker> Dear download: Why aren't you done?
00:26:07 <elliott> Vorpal: You give it a URL to a tarball and it automatically configures, builds, and installs it.
00:26:08 <pikhq> Vorpal: Automated wget&&./configure&&make&&make install
00:26:13 <elliott> Vorpal: It even works with Perl packages.
00:26:16 <elliott> pikhq: More sophisticated.
00:26:27 <elliott> Also, it uses curl, not wget.
00:26:27 <pikhq> Except better, because elliott is awesome.
00:26:32 <elliott> Yes. I am the best person ever.
00:26:36 <pikhq> PRAISE BE UNTO ELLIOTT, GOD OF ALL
00:26:36 <elliott> In fact you should all give me money.
00:26:38 <Vorpal> bash you need to patch. They do a shitload of patches after releases
00:26:45 <Vorpal> so you need to wget like 10 patches often
00:26:48 <pikhq> elliott: I'll give you all the money in my wallet.
00:26:51 <elliott> Vorpal: It's also meant to be able to take a repository URL :P
00:27:03 <elliott> Vorpal: I'll ship libedit or whatever the variant of the week is over readline, most likely.
00:27:13 <elliott> Vorpal: I've used one that was totally compatible, so it's just a matter of finding which one that is.
00:27:16 <pikhq> elliott: And €0 and £0, if you insist.
00:27:17 <Vorpal> elliott, bash is rather closesly tied to readline
00:27:29 <elliott> Vorpal: True. Well, bash can have readline :P
00:27:45 <elliott> Vorpal: How stable is bash's repository?
00:27:53 <Nitpicker> There used to be some... website, a sort of "make your own distro" site
00:27:53 <elliott> If it's stable, I'll just use that over patching it all the time.
00:28:02 <elliott> Nitpicker: I think I remember that. Wasn't it terrible?
00:28:34 <Nitpicker> I'd imagine it's the sort of thing that would be called terrible around here, but I don't think I ever formed a real opinion about it
00:28:45 * Nitpicker vaguely wanted to make a Creatures-themed distro
00:28:47 <Vorpal> elliott, what do you mean
00:29:00 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no idea.
00:29:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I wouldn't use it
00:29:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Hey, some projects actually tell you to use CVS over the releases.
00:29:36 <Vorpal> elliott, but here is what you need to download and apply: http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/bash/bash-4.1-patches/
00:29:49 <elliott> Vorpal: I like how they're USELESSLY NAMED.
00:30:01 <Nitpicker> Dear Chrome download manager: Fuck you in the ass
00:30:05 <Vorpal> elliott, at least you know which order to apply them :P
00:30:11 <elliott> Vorpal: I like how their code is so buggy that they have to patch it 9 times in one release.
00:30:11 <pikhq> elliott: And mplayer.
00:30:22 <elliott> Really inspires confidence.
00:30:32 <Vorpal> elliott, they tend to patch for rather minor things
00:30:42 <elliott> Incidentally, if anyone is looking to become more cynical about software, I recommend they make a distribution.
00:30:44 <Vorpal> elliott, in fact *any* bug iirc
00:30:45 <elliott> It's worked wonders fro me!
00:31:14 <pikhq> mplayer's most recent release was done for the sake of distros too afraid of using an SVN release.
00:31:19 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway 3.2 had like 30+ patches
00:31:21 <Vorpal> elliott, this is NOTHING
00:31:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Incidentally, I'll probably not bother shipping OpenSSH at all, because Dropbear has an identical feature set and is much smaller.
00:31:44 <Vorpal> elliott, how does it compare to OpenSSH-HPN?
00:31:58 <Vorpal> elliott, and I use some rather esoteric features of openssh :P
00:31:59 <pikhq> *When it came out*, they said "Unless you are at least deadly allergic to it, use latest SVN instead."
00:32:04 <elliott> "A: HPN-SSH is a patch set designed to remove a networking bottleneck in the base OpenSSH code. Removing this bottleneck can improve performance drastically."
00:32:08 <Nitpicker> elliott, what sort of package manager are you using/
00:32:17 <elliott> Vorpal: I doubt Dropbear has the same bottleneck, unless it's the only "obvious" way to do things.
00:32:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, name an esoteric feature.
00:32:34 <elliott> Vorpal: (forwarding does not count as esoteric, it counts as mundane)
00:33:05 <Vorpal> elliott, key only login with specific commands run on different pubkeys
00:33:22 <Nitpicker> <Sgeo> Smash the computer you're using right now [Don't]
00:33:34 <elliott> Vorpal: It can do the former. How do you do the latter with OpenSSH?
00:33:51 <Nitpicker> And I think I've made that "joke" before
00:33:54 <Vorpal> elliott, by adding stuff to the authorized_key file
00:34:00 <elliott> Vorpal: "# Compatible with OpenSSH ~/.ssh/authorized_keys public key authentication"
00:34:11 <Vorpal> elliott, fully compatible?
00:34:43 <elliott> You can use ~/.ssh/authorized_keys in the same way as with OpenSSH, just put
00:34:43 <elliott> the key entries in that file. They should be of the form:
00:34:43 <elliott> ssh-rsa AAAAB3NzaC1yc2EAAAABIwAAAIEAwVa6M6cGVmUcLl2cFzkxEoJd06Ub4bVDsYrWvXhvUV+ZAM9uGuewZBDoAqNKJxoIn0Hyd0Nk/yU99UVv6NWV/5YSHtnf35LKds56j7cuzoQpFIdjNwdxAN0PCET/MG8qyskG/2IE2DPNIaJ3Wy+Ws4IZEgdJgPlTYUBWWtCWOGc= someone@hostname
00:34:46 <elliott> NOTE: Dropbear ignores authorized_keys options such as those described in the
00:34:46 <elliott> OpenSSH sshd manpage, and will not allow a login for these keys.
00:34:54 <elliott> I am not sure what constitutes an "option" here.
00:35:03 <Vorpal> elliott, those options would be the ones in question
00:35:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, yeah, compile it yourself or have a less crazy setup :P
00:35:18 <elliott> It does every other thing under the sun.
00:35:24 -!- iGO has joined.
00:35:42 <Vorpal> elliott, also what about ~/.ssh/config. I use that to type ssh home instead of ssh foo@bar.dyndns.org -p 1234567 :P
00:35:54 <elliott> Pretty sure it can do that. Anyway, shut up :)
00:36:21 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I prefer calling it an esoteric setup
00:36:47 <elliott> Knoppix is esoteric, use that :P
00:36:57 <Vorpal> elliott, no it is just stupid :P
00:37:02 <Vorpal> elliott, oh also ipsec. I presume you will package strongswan?
00:37:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, surely you should be GNU LOYAL? http://www.lysator.liu.se/~nisse/lsh/
00:37:25 <elliott> "Ahh yes, where all the crazies are."
00:37:26 -!- iGO has quit (Client Quit).
00:37:34 <elliott> Vorpal: How difficult is building strongSwan? :P
00:37:54 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no idea. I used packages for it. But shoehorning it into your service daemon will be a chore
00:38:00 <elliott> "No results found for "strongswan sucks"."
00:38:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Is there ever a need to *stop* strongswan?
00:38:43 <Vorpal> elliott, there is sometimes. Mostly because you need to restart it a *lot* while configuring it
00:38:55 <Vorpal> elliott, as in, it takes a few hours to get everything working
00:39:02 -!- Nitpicker has changed nick to Sgeo.
00:39:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Make a service for it; the run script is just the commands to enable it, followed by "coma" or whatever I decide to call the sleep-forever command.
00:39:12 <Vorpal> elliott, and sometimes you need to stop it then, because you just cut yourself off from internet :P
00:39:12 <Sgeo> DSL is taking a weirdly long amount of time to start
00:39:17 <elliott> Vorpal: The finish script is just the commands to turn it off.
00:40:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Now was that so hard? :P
00:40:58 <Vorpal> elliott, will you package aiccu?
00:41:04 <elliott> Vorpal: (If I succumb to you and other evil people's wishes, I'll just put a huge gob of extra code in svmg so it can support start scripts that don't leave a process running around, but it will require donations.)
00:41:15 <elliott> Chocolate will make me do that.
00:41:28 <elliott> Vorpal: I have a moral objection to packaging anything SixXS makes
00:41:29 <Vorpal> elliott, strongswan leave 0-2 running
00:41:34 <Vorpal> depending on configuration
00:41:46 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, strongswan leave 0-2 running
00:41:57 <elliott> Does killing one of them stop strongswan, by any chance?
00:42:26 <Vorpal> elliott, you will probably break your networking by doing that :P
00:42:36 <elliott> Vorpal: aiccu looks easy to build
00:42:38 <Vorpal> elliott, still you will likely break networking
00:42:39 <elliott> there's a Makefile right there
00:43:02 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe if there's a non-sixxs fork :P
00:43:18 <elliott> Or should that be Horracle?
00:43:54 <Vorpal> elliott, what about gnu smalltalk? :D
00:44:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Why would you ever want to use that :)
00:44:13 <Vorpal> elliott, to annoy you of course
00:44:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I have a feeling you are going to be my favourite user.
00:44:30 <Vorpal> elliott, and less cheesy colours than squeak. That is always a plus
00:45:16 * Sgeo isn't quite sure what Vorpal is getting at. Sure, Squeak can look cheesy, but... GNU Smalltalk doesn't exactly have a look
00:45:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:45:20 <Sgeo> Or maybe that's the joke
00:45:21 <Vorpal> elliott, will you package oracle/sun java? Remember minecraft doesn't seem to work with openjdk
00:45:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, the sole reason being Minecraft.
00:45:35 <elliott> Vorpal: In fact, I might just include it in the Minecraft package.
00:45:36 <Vorpal> Sgeo, that was part of the joke
00:45:44 <elliott> Vorpal: "Minecraft. (Also includes the Sun JVM)"
00:45:52 <Vorpal> elliott, but minecraft isn't open? ;P
00:46:05 <elliott> Vorpal: The exception to the openness rule is AWESOME
00:46:18 <elliott> Vorpal: I wonder if I could somehow package all of Emacs except from ERC, just for you.
00:46:35 <elliott> By "fundamentalist", I don't mean Westboro stupidness, or "destroy everyone who disagrees with me" stuff. I mean that I believe in what I see as the "fundamentals" of Christianity:
00:46:38 <elliott> # The literal nature of Biblical accounts (meaning that what they say happened actually happened. Including the Creation account. Obviously stuff like Psalms and Revelation is metaphor.)
00:46:40 <Vorpal> elliott, you could but it would be quite a chore. And do you want to dig around in elisp?
00:46:48 -!- TLUL|afk has changed nick to TLUL.
00:47:05 <elliott> "The Bible is 100% ABSOLUTELY ACCURATE, unlike what some Christians believe. They would rather pick and choose, but I don't. (Except for those bits I don't like)"
00:47:25 <Vorpal> "The Bible is 100% ABSOLUTELY ACCURATE, unlike what some Christians believe. They would rather pick and choose, but I don't. (Except for those bits I don't like)" <-- uh, this is a parody right?
00:47:38 <fizzie> I've been running MineCraft exclusively with openjdk-6-jre 6b20-1.9-0ubuntu1 with no issues at all.
00:47:40 <elliott> Vorpal: It was my rephrasing of:
00:47:44 <elliott> <elliott> By "fundamentalist", I don't mean Westboro stupidness, or "destroy everyone who disagrees with me" stuff. I mean that I believe in what I see as the "fundamentals" of Christianity:
00:47:45 <elliott> <elliott> # The literal nature of Biblical accounts (meaning that what they say happened actually happened. Including the Creation account. Obviously stuff like Psalms and Revelation is metaphor.)
00:47:51 <elliott> fizzie: Well, you're luckier than us.
00:47:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, I get black screen with openjdk
00:48:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Wait. That was in browser.
00:48:05 <elliott> Maybe the download version works with OpenJDK?
00:48:12 <Sgeo> Well, isn't Psalms supposed to basically be songs written by some guy?
00:48:13 <Vorpal> elliott, no. I only tried downloaded one
00:48:30 <Vorpal> elliott, haven't tried alpha in browser
00:48:32 <elliott> [[Mojang Specifications' Minecraft is a game about survival and building. Presented in first person and available for the Mac and PC, it has quickly become one of those indie darling success stories. In its alpha phase of development, Minecraft has sold over 600,000 copies. It's popular, has a great community, and has generated a lot of positive buzz. The game has also inspired an iOS developer to create his own version of the title, which has si
00:48:32 <elliott> nce been pulled from the App Store.
00:48:32 <elliott> The game was called Minecrafted and it hit the App Store at $.99. The App's creator, Trevor Wilkin, claimed in the release information for the game that Minecrafted was "built from the ground up for Apple devices without code or content from the original." However, the game looked and played like Minecraft, and could even connect with legitimate Minecraft servers.]]
00:48:56 <fizzie> Well, I'unno, but it works with openjdk both at work and at home.
00:49:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Incidentally, I hope Mojang Specifications is never renamed.
00:49:24 <elliott> It's such a strange company name!
00:49:35 <elliott> Specifications. They deliver SPECIFICATIONS to the customer.
00:49:50 <Vorpal> elliott, hm... Also "Mojang" is quite confusing too
00:50:10 <elliott> Just at it being confusing.
00:50:24 <elliott> Seems like your standard arbitrary-meaningless-name to me.
00:50:25 <Vorpal> unless it is a pun on "mojäng"...
00:50:55 <Vorpal> elliott, like "that thingy over there" or such
00:51:02 <elliott> They specify THINGIES in DETAIL.
00:51:05 <Vorpal> like when you don't know or don't remember the name
00:51:31 <Vorpal> elliott, yes It is a very confusing name
00:51:37 <Sgeo> Why am I getting only 129kB/s?
00:51:46 <fizzie> It does need to be started with "java -Xmx1024M -Xms512M -cp .../Minecraft.jar net.minecraft.LauncherFrame" for me though.
00:51:55 <fizzie> But that's a documented thing.
00:51:57 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, that's the settings *I* use. BEST BUDDIES.
00:52:07 <elliott> fizzie: Wait, no it isn't.
00:52:09 <elliott> exec java -Xmx2048M -Xms1024M -cp "$(dirname "$0")/launcher.jar" net.minecraft.LauncherFrame
00:52:13 <elliott> I'M MORE HARDCORE THAN YOU
00:52:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, huh. I can just run java -Xmx410M -jar Minecraft.jar
00:52:20 <Vorpal> (because well, my system is weak)
00:52:25 <elliott> Vorpal: It's meant to be if you have issues.
00:52:30 <elliott> So maybe that's what makes it work with Openjddjjddjdkkkk
00:52:34 <Vorpal> (1024+512 = total system memory)
00:52:54 <fizzie> Well, I haven't tried to use anything less; those numbers were from somewhere.
00:53:05 <Vorpal> and it works fine with 410 MB for max heap
00:53:18 <Vorpal> and max stack at whatever is deafault
00:53:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, and as for what window manager the "default" set will include: no fuckin' clue :P
00:53:46 <Vorpal> elliott, you plan to include X in default!?
00:53:52 <elliott> Vorpal: (The default set won't be any package or anything silly like that, just what the installer installs the first time. You're expected to be able to manage your own system after that.)
00:54:01 <fizzie> (Away-asleep now, have to wake up in four hours.)
00:54:15 <Vorpal> elliott, I expect the system to not install X by default
00:54:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, saw the minecraft pano above?
00:54:28 <elliott> Vorpal: You could always tell it to not install X. But there's no real reason not to install it.
00:55:11 <Vorpal> elliott, it shouldn't be in default install. How could you then ever hope to claim to not have any remote holes in the default setup for over 5 years ;P
00:55:15 <elliott> Ugh, I can't find my house since it's way off my spawn point :P
00:55:26 <elliott> Vorpal: You do realise the default install is just what the installer will give you if you click "Next" a lot? :P
00:55:30 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't you mark with torches
00:55:38 <elliott> I didn't have torches at the time!
00:55:45 <elliott> Vorpal: It will probably be compartmentalised so you can untick "X etc." if you want.
00:56:02 <Vorpal> elliott, that is why you build a base within viewing distance of the spawn point
00:56:36 <elliott> Vorpal: (After all, it'll be suitable for servers too.)
00:57:35 <Vorpal> elliott, yellow text: "Reference implementation!"
00:57:45 <elliott> compliant with Minecraft standards
00:57:53 <elliott> Vorpal: You know, maybe it'll ship with Minecraft
00:57:59 <elliott> After all, who wouldn't install it? Even on a server.
00:58:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Thing I will deliberately not package: Apache :P
01:00:59 <elliott> <Vorpal> But I need Apache, ktoaster depends on it!
01:01:22 <elliott> Vorpal: You'll be happy to hear I'm unlikely to package vim.
01:01:37 <elliott> (Well, right up until the point that a vim user packages it, which will take approximately 3 seconds.)
01:11:23 <Sgeo> On /r/netsec's sidebar:
01:11:24 <Sgeo> "/r/SocialEngineering - Free Candy"
01:12:08 <Sgeo> Dear /r/SocialEngineering: Damn yo
01:12:17 <Sgeo> (They made a fake orangered)
01:14:18 <elliott> G'night; bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
01:14:20 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:19:44 <Sgeo> Dear Chrome: WHY THE FUCK CAN'T YOU JUST PAUSE DOWNLOADS WHEN YOU EXIT?
01:30:00 <TLUL> Sgeo: Use Free Download Manager
01:30:18 * Sgeo is torrenting Linux CDs now
01:30:29 <TLUL> http://goo.gl/TKnBb
01:30:38 <TLUL> I used it to torrent most of my Linux ISOs
01:30:43 <TLUL> Which ones are you downloading?
01:30:54 <Sgeo> TLUL, why would I trust some unknown .exe?
01:31:02 <TLUL> http://goo.gl/pbjO
01:31:07 <TLUL> Link to the download site
01:31:23 <TLUL> Best DM I've ever used.
01:32:14 <TLUL> Tip: Don't use OrbitDownloader.
01:33:11 <TLUL> Which Linux ISOs are you downloading, anyway?
01:34:26 <Sgeo> Right now, just Kubuntu 10.10
01:34:31 <Sgeo> Trying to get OpenSUSE
01:35:29 <TLUL> I have every OpenSUSE ISO I could find on their website
01:35:40 <TLUL> I was bored and decided to use up some bandwidth.
01:36:02 <TLUL> Is 11.3 the latest version still?
01:36:44 <TLUL> Yeah, looks like it.
01:37:03 <TLUL> I couldn't get it to work in VirtualBox (but I didn't try very hard) so I stuck to Ubuntu
01:52:06 -!- Hiant has joined.
01:54:09 <Hiant> Hello all. I have been pondering a language where control structure is based solely on permissions (aka run read write, ect). Does anyone know if there is an esolang like this already out there?
01:57:35 <pikhq> Seems an entirely unique concept to me.
01:57:48 <pikhq> I'm unsure how such a language could function, though.
02:00:25 <Sgeo> Dear SGU trailer coming up right before the episode:
02:00:30 <Sgeo> FUCK YOU TO HELL\
02:00:46 <Hiant> The interpreter/compiler would have a current permission (such as safe, normal, advanced, administrator) would only be able to execute commands at or below its permission level. The same goes with functions.
02:01:03 -!- p_q has quit (Quit: Leaving).
02:01:41 <TLUL> interesting...
02:04:08 <Hiant> I would imagine that functions would be able to operate on atoms and other functions, and that their success in doing so is related to the inherent permissions of the function and the access level of the compiler.
02:06:14 <Hiant> This would make it very easy to reach a certain level of obtuseness; simply pepper your code with beyond-permission commands. They would look valid, but would simply be ignored by the compiler. This also makes it possible to have a single program achieve more then one affect, if the compiler is initiated with a different permission level.
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02:07:38 <Sgeo> The _compiler_'s permissions?
02:08:00 <Sgeo> Not the permissions the compiler has
02:08:06 <Sgeo> The permissions set by the compiler
02:08:29 <Hiant> The terminology is very...confusing.
02:08:51 <Hiant> A bit of a name-space collision.
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02:11:10 -!- zzo38 has joined.
02:14:27 <Sgeo> At this episode and this season
02:16:27 <Hiant> Another idea I am currently fiddling with is based on bct (bitwise cyclic tag) systems. It operates on a series of hexadecimal digits, one at a time, and executes the commands associated with each. Also, the program may only edit itself, so there are no data strings, just a changing execution string.
02:20:03 -!- zzo38 has set topic: IGNORANCE IS SLAVERY | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
02:22:44 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
02:36:38 -!- Hiant has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]).
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02:49:16 <zzo38> Do you like this??
02:51:53 -!- Gregor has set topic: IGNORANCE OF MAGICK IS SLAVERY | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
03:02:42 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/hTEh
03:03:11 <Sgeo> Why is Kubuntu telling me to upgrade VirtualBox's BIOS?
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03:41:06 * Sgeo wants to try MeeGo
03:42:30 <Ilari> One /11 allocated to china...
03:43:51 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
03:44:42 -!- Decarabia has joined.
03:46:39 <Ilari> Too bad I haven't seen breakdown of allocations by RIR... Because at this point of the game, only RIPE and APNIC are relevant...
03:48:24 -!- Slereah has joined.
03:49:48 <Ilari> Well, actually, if LACNIC takes large allocations, it too could allocate relatively soon (and then the final three would be ARIN+LACNIC+APNIC).
03:51:58 <Ilari> Basically, one unexpected /10 from LACNIC could throw the current (ARIN+APNIC+RIPE) scenario, resulting X-day moving something like three weeks earlier...
03:57:22 <Sgeo> OpenSUSE actually noticed that I was running in VirtualBox, and just did the right thing
03:57:32 <Sgeo> Its Kickoff menu was decently done
03:57:50 <Sgeo> The only thing I disliked was the not-easy-for-a-newbie-to-use software installer
03:57:58 <Sgeo> It's just a package manager, not dressed up all fancy
04:01:34 * Sgeo installs Kubuntu into a VM
04:01:39 <Sgeo> Kubuntu live kind of sucks
04:02:00 <Sgeo> Browser said it had cool extensions, yet the sources weren't set up
04:02:03 <Sgeo> Among other things
04:02:12 <Sgeo> Ugly user-exposed names in Kickoff
04:03:17 <Sgeo> No easily-visible easy package manager
04:03:30 <Sgeo> That may be a function of being on LiveCD.. or a flawed memory on my part
04:06:26 <Sgeo> Ubuntu's in-install slideshow let you go forward and back. Kubuntu's doesn't
04:13:49 <zzo38> Is that a problem to you?
04:14:14 <Sgeo> Unless I can search the CD and find where it keeps a copy of the slides, yes
04:16:40 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rekonq.png Rekonq on GNOME mindboggle
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04:18:10 <TLUL> I'm about to go configure an ancient computer with a Maverick Server installation.
04:18:22 <TLUL> I may install several different display managers just to see what they're like.
04:18:43 <TLUL> I figure if I start with a server install, then I get a fair comparison of all of them since nothing is preconfigured to help one of them out.
04:19:22 <Sgeo> Well, presumably, all the Ubuntus use the same repos, so
04:19:33 <Sgeo> Some display managers may be better tweaked than others
04:19:53 <Sgeo> Actually, I may be utterly mistaken
04:22:25 <pikhq> TLUL: The preconfiguration is part of the package... Unless you intend to compile from source, you're really not going to get anything magically different from using the normal installer.
04:22:46 <TLUL> That's not entirely true.
04:23:25 <TLUL> There won't be many differences, but there will be some.
04:23:31 <pikhq> The Ubuntu installer does the following: generic system configuration, and installing the ubuntu-desktop meta package.
04:23:49 <pikhq> The Kubuntu installer does the following: generic system configuration, and installing the kubuntu-desktop meta package.
04:24:06 <pikhq> The Xubuntu installer does the following: generic system configuration, and installing the xubuntu-desktop meta package.
04:24:27 <TLUL> A trend of being incorrect.
04:24:34 <pikhq> What's incorrect about it?
04:24:36 <TLUL> incorrect package names
04:25:38 <TLUL> The funny thing is you're probably looking it up right now.
04:25:50 <TLUL> Despite the fact that you got all of the package names right.
04:25:55 <pikhq> http://packages.ubuntu.com/dapper/ubuntu-desktop
04:26:51 <pikhq> Or http://packages.ubuntu.com/natty/ubuntu-desktop if you prefer the latest one, rather than the absurdly old one that was the first result on Google.
04:27:30 <Sgeo> pikhq, are you telling me I was right?
04:28:24 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Well, presumably, all the Ubuntus use the same repos, so
04:28:25 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Some display managers may be better tweaked than others
04:28:45 <pikhq> Yeah, it's a single distribution with different installers.
04:29:05 <pikhq> Each installer with a distinct default installed package set.
04:29:17 <Sgeo> Is there a way to uninstall all dependencies of a package that are not dependencies of a different package?
04:29:50 <Gregor> Sgeo: That's the apt family's default behavior when you uninstall things.
04:30:00 <TLUL> ^and that's it
04:30:03 <Sgeo> Even special things like ubuntu-desktop ?
04:30:21 -!- TLUL has changed nick to TLUL|afk.
04:30:34 <Gregor> Sgeo: Technically it depends on how it's installed, but probably.
04:30:56 <pikhq> Yeah, that's APT's default behavior. Anything that's not a dependency of something installed and was auto-installed (pulled in as a dependency of something else) gets uninstalled when unneeded.
04:33:43 <Sgeo> Wow, this thing's autorun.sh really wants gksu
04:34:00 <Sgeo> Could probably skip it
04:34:05 <Sgeo> Sillily installing gksu instead
04:50:16 <Sgeo> Probably some graphical sudo program
04:50:34 <Sgeo> Or at least, it seemed to be pulling in GNOMEish packages
04:56:30 -!- TLUL|afk has changed nick to TLUL.
04:57:17 * Sgeo decides adding 3d accel to his Kubuntu machine would be a good idea
04:59:25 <Sgeo> Dear Kubuntu: Please try to make some sort of effort to remember my resolution settings
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05:04:50 <Sgeo_> Dear God Quassel's default pane sizes are terrible
05:11:36 <Sgeo> Kopete doesn't have Facebook support
05:11:54 <Sgeo> It seems to still be doable though
05:16:55 <Gregor> Sgeo: Don't use kopete.
05:16:58 <Gregor> Sgeo: It is so, so bad.
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05:17:24 <Sgeo> I have MeeGo downloaded, going to try MeeGo
05:18:24 <zzo38> How I think a package-manager could work is there is one root package (there is a standard system location for it, or it can be set by command-line arguments or environment variables). The root package contains some configuration data and depends on "local-installed-software" and "local-system-installed-software".
05:19:17 <zzo38> "local-installed-software" depends on any programs you have installed. To uninstall, you tell the package manager to edit "local-installed-software" to remove the dependency, and it will decide to uninstall or not. If you tell it force uninstall, it uninstall regardless of anything.
05:19:30 <zzo38> Does it sensible to you?
05:19:56 <Sgeo> MeeGo complained about the CPU vendor
05:20:10 <Sgeo> It really, really, wants to only be useful on a select few devices, doesn't it?
05:20:36 <zzo38> What is MeeGo and what is the CPU vendor?
05:21:14 <Sgeo> MeeGo is a .. OS thingy
05:22:11 <zzo38> There is something wrong with the MOTD, I think the underlining is incorrect
05:29:54 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of purple smoke*).
05:30:41 <zzo38> No! It is the wrong smoke!!
05:41:52 <Gregor> Is it just me, or have xkcd's recent "five minute comics" been substantially better than most of the other xkcd comics.
05:45:13 * Sgeo goes to try Jolicloud
05:46:57 <Sgeo> How much does Jolicloud put IN the cloud?
05:47:15 <Sgeo> My favorite apps? Twitter and Facebook streams?
05:47:21 <Sgeo> All stored on Jolicloud servers?
05:47:35 * Sgeo throws up a little
05:49:55 <Sgeo> Looking at the website thing I'm logged into
05:50:04 <Sgeo> It looks VERY MUCH like a user interface for a computer
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06:02:07 * Sgeo has discovered the magic of BitTorrent
06:04:17 <zzo38> BitTorrent is meant for sharing large files (such as video files; although some Linux distributions are also shared on BitTorrent), but you can share other files too
06:09:32 <Sgeo> You have to sign in to Jolicloud to use it
06:10:04 <Sgeo> It's a fricken full screen web browser
06:10:52 <Sgeo> "Do you want Chromium to save your password?"
06:11:02 <Sgeo> As I sign in to an Operating System's user interface
06:11:04 <Sgeo> This is absurd
06:13:07 <Sgeo> It's interesting
06:13:20 <Sgeo> A bit silly to have to open a Chromium for web browsing when the while thing is Chromium
06:13:57 <Sgeo> Programs should not be unmaximizable (they are)
06:16:42 <Sgeo> About to try Lubuntu
06:20:22 <Sgeo> Ok, I get that it's meant to be fast, not sexy
06:20:33 <Sgeo> But where's the nice convenient easy-for-newbies package manager?
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06:23:27 <Sgeo> Lubuntu Netbook people haven't heard of that F guy's law
06:24:52 <pikhq> Gregor: Not just you.
06:25:07 <pikhq> Gregor: I remind you that the early xkcd's were notebook doodles.
06:25:19 <Sgeo> The one about things at the edge of the screen being infinite legnth/width as applicable and thus easier
06:26:34 <pikhq> Sgeo: Fitts's Law.
06:28:10 <Sgeo> Does VirtualBox really not have a screenshot feature?
06:28:58 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what happened to SymphonyOS
06:30:55 * Sgeo waits for Chrome to get ot of its frozen rut
06:35:26 <Sgeo> http://www.symphonyos.com/ This Strata stuff sounds very Jolicloud-like
06:35:42 <Sgeo> Maybe at least they'll put some effort into hiding the webiness of the UI
06:39:17 <zzo38> I do not find such things useful; I can run programs locally. (SSH could be used if you needed to run programs on another computer; you could also copy a file and so on, using the other files, and so on... if you have shared accounts (like Free Geek) you can SSH and the files will still be there to copy to another directory)
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06:51:25 * Sgeo goes to try Haiku
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07:03:59 <Sgeo> My keys went weird
07:04:03 <Sgeo> IN THE HOST SYSTEM
07:04:33 <Sgeo> Anyways, my opinion of Haiku went from "It's alpha." to "It manages to be so buggy, it breaks the host OS when emulated!"
07:05:05 <Sgeo> (Note: I'm sure there's a more reasonable explanation for what I just went through)
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07:11:12 <Sgeo> http://www.geteasypeasy.com/
07:11:27 <Sgeo> That screenshot looks a LOT like an old Ubuntu Netbook Remix screenshot
07:11:44 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to stay away
07:16:54 <Sgeo> "Around May 2008 all members of the Good OS team ceased to post in any blog, twitter, or any other web medium, including their own forum and website. While the website is still on-line, and gOS 3.1 can be downloaded, no sign of the developers has been heard of since then. Additionally there are no sources of gOS available. Development of gOS seems to have been stalled, and the official forum (http://forum.thinkgos.com/ ) was not moderated any
07:16:54 <Sgeo> more, was quickly overrun by Spam and was closed halfway through 2009 (one of the few life-signs of the GoodOS team after mid 2008)"
07:17:13 <Sgeo> That is one of the creepiest things I have read (wrt all this OS stuff)
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07:52:19 <coppro> http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/nov/15/3
07:52:31 <coppro> yes, I know it was slashdot, but still... rofffffl
07:56:23 <fizzie> Interesting facts from the comments: "Any PC built after 1985 has the storage capacity to house an evil spirit."
07:56:30 <fizzie> Makes one wonder how many bytes an evil spirit takes.
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08:15:28 <Ilari> Probably means few megs (since first PC hard drivers were 10MB).
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08:19:14 <fizzie> IBM AT, introduced in August 1984, came with a 20 MB (30 MB in the later 1986 model) disk... but of course "any PC built after 1985" means I should look at when they stopped manufacturing different models.
08:27:35 <Ilari> Heh... ClF3 and Hydrazine would probably be quite a combo (well, at least it would burn, as ClF3 is hypergolic with darn near everything...) :-)
08:28:14 <Ilari> Especially if it is organic...
09:05:11 <Vorpal> fog and -8 C outside during the night → awesome looking "frost spikes" on tree twigs
09:05:21 <Vorpal> I mean, the have to be over 3 cm in length
09:05:26 <Vorpal> will upload some photos soon
09:07:49 <fizzie> Heh, the unofficial university temperature graph for the last week looks a bit... unlikely: http://outside.hut.fi/10_days.png
09:08:23 <Vorpal> huh. why did that link open in gimp...
09:08:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, so it does. Presumably something was broken there
09:10:14 <Vorpal> not sure about current temp
09:10:39 <Vorpal> I got the -8 from the max/min thermometer about an hour ago
09:10:59 <fizzie> Here it didn't go below that -2 during last night, I think.
09:14:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, here (progressive jpeg): http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/winter2010/ice_1939.jpg
09:16:29 <fizzie> Funky. It looks a bit like that tree I phone-snapped last winter and probably mentioned here too -- http://zem.fi/~fis/frozen.jpg -- except more furry-spiky.
09:17:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, also your looks a bit more "undefined" in the details?
09:18:02 <Vorpal> even in the stuff that is in focus I mean
09:18:10 <fizzie> Yes, I think the tree picture has had a bit of melting-refreezing going on.
09:18:48 <fizzie> IIRC it was more interesting-looking in the morning when I went past it, but didn't think of photographing it until later in the afternoon when coming back the same way.
09:19:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you happen to know when the US goes non-DST?
09:20:54 <fizzie> I think they went a few days ago.
09:21:10 <fizzie> There was a lot of talk about latest iPhone OS alarm clock failing to account for that.
09:22:16 <fizzie> http://support.apple.com/kb/TS3542
09:24:56 <fizzie> They switch on first Sunday in November, so for this year it was the latest possible (Nov 7th) since November started on a Monday.
09:27:50 <cheater99> Vorpal: how is it -8C with fog outside?
09:29:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, forgot if you saw that minecraft pano I made
09:34:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, I saw it; it was what made me think of Blenderizing a minecraft map. (Not that I'll probably bother; I didn't exactly finish the Descent thing either.)
09:35:04 <Vorpal> there, now it looks somewhat less weird (added a few extra vertical lines)
09:43:13 <cheater99> hmmm... i want a new descent game :<
09:44:46 <fizzie> The old games worked with all kinds of serial-port linked virtual helmets.
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09:45:37 <fizzie> Ooh. Is it immersive and futuristic and all other cool things?
09:46:13 <cheater99> the important bits are not outdated
09:46:23 <cheater99> i could hack two iphone displays together i bet!
09:47:03 <fizzie> I remember one with a warning label saying you're not supposed to use it while you're downhill skiing. That seemed an oddly precise warning.
09:52:59 <cheater99> i have really liked the descent-ish levels in crysis
09:53:50 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Ooh. Is it immersive and futuristic and all other cool things? <-- are you asking me? And if so: about what?
09:54:00 <fizzie> No, it was about the virtual helmet there.
09:55:04 <cheater99> how cute - pretending to have me on ignore, and putting up a nice show of it
09:57:26 <fizzie> On the same sort of topic: I have this stand-alone GPS unit with a few silly games (maze, nibbles, that sort of thing) that you play by phyiscally moving around; you can set the size of the playing field and so on. The manual says "[!] WARNING: Do not attempt to play these games while driving a motor vehicle or in an area of heavy traffic."
10:03:32 <cheater99> you COULD play it by driving a car around a desert or something
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11:28:20 <cheater99> http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/2369/bgc.png
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11:35:05 <Ilari> Haha: This site only partially works with IPv6-only client. Guess what doesn't work? :-)
11:43:04 <Ilari> (Hint: It is a part you would least expect to fail with IPv6).
11:56:14 <Ilari> "IPv6 ready" logo. :-)
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14:19:51 <elliott> 19:57:50 <Sgeo> The only thing I disliked was the not-easy-for-a-newbie-to-use software installer
14:20:17 <elliott> 20:06:26 <Sgeo> Ubuntu's in-install slideshow let you go forward and back. Kubuntu's doesn't
14:20:22 <elliott> Please read this very slowly and then shoot yourself.
14:20:52 <elliott> 20:22:25 <pikhq> TLUL: The preconfiguration is part of the package... Unless you intend to compile from source, you're really not going to get anything magically different from using the normal installer.
14:20:52 <elliott> 20:22:46 <TLUL> That's not entirely true.
14:20:52 <elliott> 20:23:25 <TLUL> There won't be many differences, but there will be some.
14:21:19 <elliott> 20:24:34 <pikhq> What's incorrect about it?
14:21:20 <elliott> 20:24:36 <TLUL> incorrect package names
14:21:20 <elliott> 20:25:38 <TLUL> The funny thing is you're probably looking it up right now.
14:21:20 <elliott> 20:25:50 <TLUL> Despite the fact that you got all of the package names right.
14:22:17 <elliott> 21:41:52 <Gregor> Is it just me, or have xkcd's recent "five minute comics" been substantially better than most of the other xkcd comics.
14:23:00 <elliott> Gregor: (I mean, okay, they're obviously five-minute comics, but they're still 10x better than anything since... comic 400.)
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15:00:12 <elliott> The purpose of readproctitle here is to give us some access to any error messages that may be generated by a running svscan process. The 400 dots that appear as the last argument to the command provide readproctitle with an in-memory buffer it uses to display whatever it reads from its standard input. It is then possible to view this display with a process status listing using the ps(1) command:
15:00:12 <elliott> # ps -axww | grep readproctitle
15:01:44 <elliott> "The problem arises because, for security reasons, FreeBSD no longer mounts procfs, the process file system, by default." wat
15:09:34 <ais523> wow, today's TheDailyETF is actually /good/
15:10:14 <ais523> also, I've seen people do things like $^E=' 'x1000; before to allocate memory in Perl
15:10:18 <ais523> I suspect it's a similar principle
15:11:03 <elliott> ais523: no, it's because it shows up in ps
15:11:10 <elliott> ais523: and obviously you can't realloc argv[n]
15:11:23 <elliott> so it passes 400 dots so that readproctitle can change that argument's value to show up in ps...
15:11:26 <ais523> elliott: well, it is much the same principle there
15:11:30 <elliott> ais523: and this is how all errors are shown, scrolling right to left on that
15:11:34 <elliott> ais523: worst logging system ever?
15:11:44 <ais523> elliott: no, that's /ingenious/
15:12:06 <elliott> ais523: yes, but: the package also comes with a *normal* logging system that it takes about 5 lines of code to replace that thing with
15:12:19 <elliott> so i have no idea what /that's/ doing there :D
15:13:24 <ais523> hmm, apparently oerjan's email no longer works
15:13:40 <ais523> cpressey sent an email to me and him, and the mail to him bounced
15:13:41 <elliott> ais523: same reason his IRC doesn't
15:13:46 <elliott> ais523: his shell account is gone
15:13:58 <elliott> ais523: Hey, cpressey and oerjan, two people we're missing!
15:14:41 <ais523> cpressey's active on the wiki
15:14:50 <ais523> in fact, he just deleted something, which surprised me because I didn't realise he was an admin
15:15:02 <elliott> ais523: I think he became an admin, like, right after he registered.
15:15:14 <elliott> ais523: pretty sure he's stopped coming to IRC because he said it was eating up all his time :)
15:15:20 <elliott> (also 'cuz i'm irritating probably)
15:15:41 <elliott> You may be anal-retentive, but apparently not anal-retentive enough to keep the email address on your home page up to date! What manner of perfidious chicanery is this perfidious chicanery? Please email me your working email address, if you have one. Thank you kindly. Sincerely, the guy who emailed Ørjan only to receive a 554 User Account has Expired response from nvg.ntnu.no, November somethingth, 2010
15:15:42 <elliott> Sorry, I honestly cannot manage to handle this right now. --Ørjan 04:45, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
15:15:42 <elliott> :( --Chris Pressey 04:50, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
15:15:48 <elliott> looks like oerjan's burned out
15:16:25 <ais523> indeed, that's fair enough
15:16:26 <elliott> ais523: FWIW, I'd got to the point of emailing the networking club at his university (where his account was) asking if he was okay before I realised he'd been commenting on the "Gödel's Lost Letter and P=NP" blog the whole time
15:16:48 <ais523> I'm just glad to know he's OK; if he wants to abandon the community, that's his right
15:17:10 <elliott> ais523: oh, absolutely, it just doesn't fit with any model of oerjan I have in my head
15:17:22 <ais523> if something bad happened to me, this channel would probably be the first place to notice
15:17:53 <elliott> I'm still mildly surprised that people noticed /I/ was gone, but then I do account for something like 50% of the entire channel's traffic.
15:18:32 <elliott> ais523: *more importantly,* losing cpressey and oerjan in a short space of time has dramatically cut our levels of interesting conversation :)
15:19:10 <elliott> This article is a great help to me! Thank you!
15:19:13 <elliott> spammers are very thumb mature
15:19:37 <ais523> elliott: I'm pretty sure cpressey and I were racing each other to revert that
15:20:14 <elliott> ais523: it could have been a perfectly valid contribution!
15:20:19 <elliott> I'm very thumb mature myself.
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15:27:41 <Sgeo> elliott, if installed Kubuntu works far better than live Kubuntu, might real installed Kubuntu be far better than emulated Kubuntu? >:D
15:28:02 <elliott> Sgeo: You shall not use Kubuntu and I'll say no more!
15:28:54 <elliott> Sgeo: The *wolves* will get you. And seriously, fuck KDE.
15:29:59 <Sgeo> The desktop plasmoid thing is a bit weird, and C++ must die, but what else is so bad about KDE?
15:32:12 <Sgeo> What would you say if I started looking for a way to make GNOME look like KDE?
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15:32:27 <Gregor> Sgeo: I would say "Stop remaking XFCE"
15:32:37 <elliott> Gregor: ...'cuz Xfce looks so much like KDE? :P
15:32:48 <elliott> Sgeo: I'd probably just punch you and put you on ignore again for my sanity.
15:32:51 <Gregor> elliott: A hell of a lot more than GNOME does.
15:33:00 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, 'cuz... it ships with one panel?
15:33:04 <elliott> Gregor: It does not look like KDE :P
15:33:35 * Sgeo still hasn't tried Sabayon Linux
15:33:40 <Gregor> elliott: XFCE's and KDE's default layouts share: The fact that they're both abstractions of Windows 95.
15:33:54 <elliott> Gregor: GNOME is also Windows 95, except they split the taskbar into two :P
15:34:30 <elliott> Gregor: Also, KDE4's default layout is about as far removed from Windows 95 as you can get while still being vaguely like that.
15:34:51 <Sgeo> Which distros tend to support KDE better than they support GNOME?
15:34:56 * Sgeo would guess OpenSUSE
15:35:08 <elliott> Sgeo: "Sabayon Linux relies on two package managers. Portage is inherited from Gentoo, while Entropy was developed for Sabayon. Portage downloads source-code and compiles it specifically for the target system, whereas Entropy manages binary files from servers. The binary tarball packages are precompiled using the Gentoo Linux unstable tree."
15:35:15 <elliott> It's the best distro ever!
15:35:18 <elliott> Use it or Ubuntu. Also shut up.
15:35:25 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, that's because it's followed in Windows 7's footsteps. But since 7 < 95, presumably 95 is the newer and more advanced Windows to follow.
15:37:21 <elliott> Gregor: It just occurred to me that, like people who think they're hardware savvy because they plugged a computer together, there must be hordes of Linux From Scratch users thinking they did something special, advanced, difficult, and unsupported, rather than just typing ./configure, make, and make install a lot. :(
15:37:49 <Sgeo> The panels have optional hide buttons
15:38:06 <elliott> Sgeo: I hate you to death.
15:38:18 <Sgeo> I can finally use Chromium properly!
15:38:45 <elliott> In fact, I'm going to frame those last two lines on my wall, and then animate a short cartoon where you repeatedly hide and unhide the panels just because you can, and then I will send the napalm.
15:38:47 <elliott> And you will burn to death.
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15:42:50 * Sgeo decides he hates the autohide stuff
15:43:01 <Sgeo> I still want Fitt's Law to help out with Chromium tabs
15:46:07 <Gregor> elliott: Idonno, I think it would be difficult to go through all of LFS without accidentally gaining a LITTLE bit of savvy.
15:46:35 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah...but...it's not magic :P
15:46:53 <elliott> Gregor: I mean, you have to compile the kernel, and you have to... compile gcc and glibc, I guess.
15:46:58 <elliott> Gregor: The rest is pretty plain-sailing.
15:47:06 <Sgeo> ....why does GNOME think my battery is charging?
15:47:38 <elliott> MAYBE YOUR FUCKING BATTERY IS CHARGING
15:47:50 <Sgeo> I'm at school and did not bring my charger
15:47:58 <Sgeo> My laptop is connected to nothing
15:48:09 <elliott> 22:28:10 <Sgeo> Does VirtualBox really not have a screenshot feature?
15:48:12 <Phantom_Hoover> MAYBE YOU SHOULD STOP CALLING FURTHER EDUCATION "SCHOOL"
15:48:16 <elliott> apparently Sgeo has never taken a screenshot in Windows before
15:49:04 <elliott> 23:16:54 <Sgeo> "Around May 2008 all members of the Good OS team ceased to post in any blog, twitter, or any other web medium, including their own forum and website. While the website is still on-line, and gOS 3.1 can be downloaded, no sign of the developers has been heard of since then. Additionally there are no sources of gOS available. Development of gOS seems to have been stalled, and the official forum (http://forum.thinkgos.com/ ) was not m
15:49:04 <elliott> 23:16:54 <Sgeo> more, was quickly overrun by Spam and was closed halfway through 2009 (one of the few life-signs of the GoodOS team after mid 2008)"
15:49:04 <elliott> 23:17:13 <Sgeo> That is one of the creepiest things I have read (wrt all this OS stuff)
15:49:13 <elliott> They all got raped by Mark Shuttleworth's invisible hand of the free market.
15:55:01 <elliott> i would love to see Sgeo using @
15:56:33 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: HEY HOOVIE I'M IN SCHOOL GETTIN' MY DOCTORATE DEGREE.
15:56:49 <elliott> Gregor: hav u got ur packed lunch
15:57:00 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: In other words: YO DOG, THEY HEARD I LIKE SCHOOL SO THEY SCHOOL ME IN HOW TO SCHOOL SO I CAN SCHOOL WHILE I SCHOOL.
15:57:16 <elliott> GREGOR NEEDS A PLASTER BECAUSE HE TRIPPED
15:58:10 <Gregor> ... needs ... a plaster?
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15:59:11 <Gregor> Hahaha you people and your foreign dialects.
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15:59:52 <Sgeo_> So, Ubuntu has issues with the wifi IN THIS ROOM
16:01:08 <Sgeo_> I'd like to try it
16:01:18 <Sgeo_> Don't feel like installing it on a real system though
16:02:58 <Phantom_Hoover> But! It lacks WINDOWS. And FILES. And APPLICATIONS AS WE KNOW THEM.
16:03:27 <elliott> I don't think Sgeo_ realises that @ is not Kitten.
16:03:32 <Sgeo_> That sounds awesome. As long as Ubuntu or some other major distro doesn't pull a GNOME and abruptly force it on everyone
16:04:03 <elliott> Sgeo_: You... do realise it isn't based on Linux in the slightest?
16:04:27 * Sgeo_ couldn't think of a better analogy for the GNOME mess
16:04:36 <Sgeo_> Also, should have realized it
16:05:10 <Sgeo_> How about this: As long as Microsoft doesn't take it, rebrand it as Windows 8, and declare Windows 7 end-of-life
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16:09:00 <Sgeo_> I was trying to hold on to my precious crappy analogy with GNOME Shell
16:09:50 <Sgeo_> With GNOME Shell taking what might be a cool concept and forcing it on everyone
16:10:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Microsoft using @ is so utterly laughable words cannot express it.
16:10:47 <elliott> Sgeo_: I hate you I hate you I hate you
16:11:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Literally _every piece of software ever previously made in any language_ wouldn't work.
16:11:05 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, do you think I seriously thought that would happen?
16:11:12 <elliott> Also I like the idea of Microsoft adopting it when there's basically no way to do closed-source software at all.
16:11:13 <Sgeo_> Also, GNOME Shell breaks GNOME panels, doesn't it?
16:11:29 <elliott> Sgeo_: Did I mention it doesn't have Chrome?
16:11:42 <Sgeo_> I assume that a web browser will be written for it
16:11:55 <elliott> Sgeo_: Probably not one with an especially fast JS engine.
16:11:55 <Sgeo_> And an environment like it could actually get me to like a Lisp
16:12:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but I can't be arsed to write one.
16:12:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And I don't particularly care whether it works with Gmail or anything.
16:12:39 <elliott> Sgeo_: Did I mention no Smalltalk?
16:12:57 <Sgeo_> Did I mention that I won't be installing it as my main OS?
16:13:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Sure, but that would be the obvious way to implement a lot of languages.
16:13:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Doing it on JS would probably be good practice or something.
16:13:41 <elliott> Sgeo_: Also, it will automatically remove every other OS..
16:13:56 <elliott> In fact I'm planning to distribute it by a web page that automatically installs it.
16:14:07 <Sgeo_> And it will also use exploits in various hypervisors to take over host systems!
16:14:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I thought it would have to play nicely with partitions?
16:14:45 <elliott> Sgeo_: There are more than a few...
16:15:13 * Sgeo_ wonders if there's any malware in the wild that takes advantage of exploits
16:15:23 <Sgeo_> Erm, hypervisor exploits
16:15:47 <Sgeo_> (Please tell me that I'm using "hypervisor" correctly
16:18:42 <Sgeo_> I'm going to assume that elliott isn't malicious enough to exploit hypervisor exploits
16:20:37 <elliott> Sgeo_ would give up when he realises it doesn't have a single 3D effect.
16:20:42 <ais523> Sgeo_: you'd likely need to have root privs on the emulated system to be able to exploit a hypervisor exploit
16:20:58 <elliott> Also, it's not a hypervisor, Sgeo_.
16:21:04 <elliott> Hypervisors are things like Xen.
16:23:31 <elliott> Sgeo_ has had a 3D seizure.
16:25:25 <Sgeo_> I once played with 3DNA
16:25:34 <Sgeo_> It needs multiuser
16:26:01 <Sgeo_> After you Google it, you'll kill me
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16:26:09 <Meryle> *NOTICE* FREENODE IS K-LINING ALL UNREGISTERED NICKS IN 1 HOUR. PLEASE JOIN #FREENODE OR /MSG ANY STAFFER FOR FURTHER INSTRUCTIONS!
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16:26:09 <elliott> Sgeo_: Not a *single* 3D effect in @. Ever.
16:26:57 <Sgeo_> Back in my day, spam was spam and trolling was trolling, never the two shall meat
16:27:11 <elliott> *never the twain shall meet, you illiterate bum.
16:27:21 <elliott> Sgeo_: Not a SINGLE 3D effect.
16:28:03 <Sgeo_> Will it have any semblance of a GUI at all?
16:28:21 <elliott> Sgeo_: Well, it'll use your display hardware to draw things.
16:29:16 <elliott> Sgeo_: Well, there are lines to divide panes.
16:31:31 <elliott> Sgeo_ has had a 4D seizure.
16:32:07 <elliott> Sgeo_ just can't handle the lines, can you Sgeo_?
16:32:09 <elliott> Lines are too much for any mortal.
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16:56:13 <Sgeo_> "Id long felt that combining a powerful static type system with functional coding would be almost ideal. "
16:56:32 <Sgeo_> Some person talking about Scala
16:57:41 <coppro> neither powerful nor static are words I'd use to describe Java's type system
16:59:40 <Sgeo_> "But guess what? In Scala, you cant tell from looking at a method call if its going to store the closure or not. You might not even be able to tell from the ScalaDoc. Youll probably end up going to the method and rooting around in the source code. If you can find it. Once again, the information that you need to know is scattered about."
16:59:49 <Sgeo_> That's what documentation is FOR, isn't it?
17:01:40 <elliott> <coppro> neither powerful nor static are words I'd use to describe Java's type system
17:01:49 <elliott> Most of Java's typing is at compile-time :P
17:03:10 <coppro> in my opinion, it isn't fun until ((.)(.)) is a valid expression
17:03:23 <elliott> Ah yes, the boobies operator.
17:06:01 <Sgeo_> My professor was just showing us an index of programming languages in use in industry
17:06:06 <Sgeo_> Haskell was above Scala
17:08:20 <coppro> Sgeo_: because Haskell is a good language
17:12:08 <yorick> MINECRAFT IS THE NEW WOW
17:13:36 <elliott> yorick: Yes, but with Minecraft you don't have to socialise.
17:15:21 <ais523> Java is definitely statically typed
17:15:33 <fizzie> elliott: But what about all the block types you can only get in 64-dude raids!
17:15:33 <ais523> it's not a very /good/ type system, but it's definitely a static one
17:17:32 <fizzie> It's the gender-neutral dude.
17:17:51 <fizzie> (Though I've seen "dudette" used too.)
17:19:04 <elliott> fizzie: I was just commenting on the power-of-twoness.
17:20:01 <fizzie> Well, I just assumed, since most things stack to piles of 64, so.
17:21:11 <Vorpal> yorick, minecraft is awesome. :P
17:21:32 <yorick> Vorpal: it doesn't even work
17:21:49 <Vorpal> yorick, try sun-jvm rather than openjdk if you get a black screen
17:22:04 <yorick> Vorpal: how am I supposed to change that
17:22:13 <Vorpal> yorick, depends on your linux distro
17:22:38 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I decided that the fort will have 8 towers: the corners and middle of the sides. And they will be high and be in brick.
17:22:43 <Vorpal> which means finding a lot of clay
17:23:10 <elliott> <yorick> Vorpal: how am I supposed to change that
17:23:12 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm going for Gregor style in colours :P
17:23:13 <elliott> sounds like a windows user
17:23:54 <Vorpal> yorick, hm. Lets see. You enable the partner repo in the package repo selection thingy
17:24:02 <Vorpal> then update the package list
17:24:08 <Vorpal> and then select sun-jvm and such
17:24:32 <elliott> I doubt yorick has bought the game.
17:24:41 <elliott> Meaning that alas, poor yorick, it won't work unless you buy it.
17:24:58 <Vorpal> well, enable sun plugin for the classic one in the browser
17:25:06 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:25:09 <Vorpal> it is a separate package
17:25:11 <yorick> elliott: shh...I'm decompiling and 'fixing' it
17:25:37 <Vorpal> yorick, it logs in then downloads the full game.
17:25:44 <elliott> yorick: Unless you hAX0R the server to give you it. Which would require fooling it into thinking you have paid, so GOOD LUCK MR. 1337
17:25:52 <elliott> "Shh! My powers defy LOGIC!"
17:25:56 <Vorpal> yorick, you could pirate it of course. If that is your thing
17:26:07 <yorick> (my powers defy logic thing)
17:27:11 <ais523> um, will someone summarise or do I have to read scrollback?
17:27:14 <fizzie> Incidentally, what's a bit strange is: my single-player "World 1" shows "0.0 MB" as the size, has been like that ever since I first visited the Nether.
17:27:45 <ais523> fizzie: 50kB is quite a lot, and anything less would be 0.0 MB when rounded
17:27:54 <yorick> ais523: minecraft sucks
17:28:09 <fizzie> ais523: The rest of the worlds are about 2 to 7 MB.
17:28:37 <fizzie> (And World 1 was also at least >5 before I did that first Nether visit.)
17:29:11 <ais523> minecraft's beginning to irritate me to the extent that Inception does
17:29:14 <elliott> `addquote <ais523> fizzie: 50kB is quite a lot
17:29:24 <HackEgo> 260|<ais523> fizzie: 50kB is quite a lot
17:29:30 <ais523> in that it seems to completely clog up unrelated channels
17:29:38 <elliott> ais523: tl;dr summary: yorick (1) complains about Minecraft, (2) says "YEAH WELL IT DOESN'T EVEN WORK ANYWAY", (3) is told how to install the right JVM, (4) says that he's decompiling the game to get it to work after being told he'd need to buy it for it to work, despite the fact that all the authentication is server-side
17:29:44 <ais523> elliott: it's around 1/3rd of a typical 3.5 inch floppy disk
17:29:54 <elliott> and then (5) reverts back to hating minecraft while seemingly wanting to "hax0r" it anyway
17:30:06 <elliott> ais523: Minecraft fans can be irritating, but it is a good game.
17:30:06 <ais523> but that's fair enough
17:30:14 <fizzie> No, 500 kB would be around third of a typical, 1.44 MB modern floppy.
17:30:28 <ais523> elliott: my understanding is NetHack : Diablo :: Dwarf Fortress : Minecraft
17:30:35 <elliott> ais523: It's hardly fair to complain about #esoteric being clogged up with irrelevant stuff when it's hardly ever not. :)
17:30:39 <zzo38> METAFONT seems a bit simpler program than TeX, it has less sections and less pages than TeX.
17:30:40 <ais523> fizzie: ah, out by an order of 10
17:30:41 <elliott> ais523: hmm, no, Minecraft is nothing like Dwarf Fortress
17:30:47 <ais523> elliott: I thought it was inspired by it
17:30:58 <ais523> although not having an equivalent to dwarves makes a major difference
17:31:05 <elliott> ais523: it's more like Lego on ...not crack; heroin?
17:31:24 <elliott> ais523: also, with monsters. so you build shelters. out of lego. uh. It sounds shitty when you explain it :P
17:31:29 <ais523> arguably, you could say NetHack was nothing like Diablo
17:31:31 <elliott> But yes, the fanbase is... eurgh.
17:31:37 <ais523> but there's certainly a resemblence
17:32:09 <elliott> ais523: well, Minecraft has no predetermined goal and you don't *have* to do anything except survive (which is trivial if you disable monsters by going into Peaceful mode)
17:32:17 <elliott> ais523: which is a bit different from dwarf fortress, really...
17:33:03 <ais523> that's very like Dwarf Fortress, which also has no predefined goal and doesn't require doing anything but surviving
17:33:25 <elliott> ais523: dwarf fortress also takes place on a finite grid, as far as I know
17:33:39 <ais523> it's a large, finite, 3D grid nowadays
17:33:40 <elliott> ais523: whereas minecraft takes place on a (well, 200 terabytes max) infinite world
17:33:51 <ais523> I don't see that as a major difference, though
17:33:53 <elliott> ais523: wait, since when is Dwarf Fortress 3D?
17:34:00 <ais523> since, um, a while ago
17:34:05 <zzo38> I tried playing Dwarf Fortress once, I do not particularly like the game, I cannot figure it out and it is slow and there seems to be some things missing?
17:34:05 <ais523> it still has a 2D interface, though
17:34:09 <ais523> meaning it's really confusing
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17:35:07 <elliott> ais523: I haven't actually played DF, but I don't get a Minecraft impression from what I hear of it.
17:35:18 <fizzie> It is a true successor to the first Slaves to Armok: God of Blood, then; since that was a really confusing game too.
17:35:45 <ais523> elliott: think Minecraft except realtime strategy
17:35:45 <elliott> ais523: [[In "Adventurer mode", the player controls an individual dwarf, human, or elf. There is no goal apart from survival. Players may either receive quests to kill monsters, which provide no specific reward, or wander freely and slaughter local fauna. Gameplay is fairly minimal; "Fortress mode" has received the bulk of the developer's attention.]]
17:35:54 <elliott> ais523: ok, that sounds like Minecraft, except Minecraft actually has things to do
17:35:58 <ais523> elliott: Fortress mode is the one people play
17:36:11 <fizzie> <mooz> I think when slaves to armok gets ready, its weather model will be user for weather forecasts, and the US army will use the nuclear blast spell for nuke tests
17:36:16 <ais523> if you imagine that each of the individual dwarves is playing Minecraft according to an AI
17:36:17 <elliott> ais523: I'm saying that Adventurer mode sounds sort of like Minecraft before it got interesting
17:36:20 <ais523> which you have mild control over
17:36:36 <elliott> I like to think fizzie has an advanced search system for his entire IRC logs.
17:36:43 <elliott> He just typed "/relevant slaves to armok" there.
17:36:49 <ais523> elliott: grep -r works pretty well
17:37:28 <elliott> Did Slaves to Armok: God of Blood (Chapter I) ever actually get completed, fizzie?
17:37:30 <elliott> The site seems... dormant.
17:37:37 <fizzie> [Context: "Does this game support anything else than walking?"]
17:37:39 <fizzie> <mooz> press the foot button and change speed
17:37:39 <fizzie> <mooz> from the slider
17:37:39 <fizzie> <mooz> however, you'll get exhausted quickly, fall over and hug the ground for hours
17:37:39 <fizzie> <mooz> so watch that stamina
17:37:44 <elliott> Well, I've been secretly working on an adventure mode inside of Chapter II: Dwarf Fortress. Now that dwarves has been released, this will be the natural continuation of Armok. See you over there!
17:37:44 <elliott> I've updated the "You Finally Aren't Naked" a bit: Armok 0.04.51. It shouldn't crash during heat cone spells now, and you can specify your character a bit more in the creation screens.
17:37:47 <Vorpal> <elliott> ais523: Minecraft fans can be irritating, but it is a good game. <-- and those who want to be fans but don't want to pay for it tend to be even more annoying. Examples: nooga, yorick.
17:38:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Clearly yorick doesn't want to be a fan.
17:38:31 <elliott> In fact it's something that rings a bell as a certain type of behaviour I've seen before, but not in this form -- "game sucks! Rabble rabble! [Uninformed natter]" "well I'm getting it to work with my SKILLZ"
17:38:35 <elliott> Despite the utter contradiction there.
17:38:39 <Vorpal> elliott, well. that is even worse.
17:38:53 <elliott> fizzie: Man, what's Chapter III gonna be like.
17:39:21 <elliott> Slaves to Armok: God of Blood, Chapter III: Sorting /dev/urandom, Prologue: Part I
17:39:24 <fizzie> <mooz> the messages are the best part of the game
17:39:25 <fizzie> <mooz> Tongue severed! Third finger severed!
17:39:34 <fizzie> It's got a very detailed damage model.
17:39:40 <elliott> fizzie: Add mooz to fungot. Now! :p
17:39:41 <fungot> elliott: but if it's little ai scripts and storyline stuff, then the infantry will be lost in translation. :-p
17:39:41 <fizzie> You can also walk on one finger.
17:39:46 <ais523> elliott: clearly, you just need to control all the entropy in the universe so /dev/urandom comes out in sorted order
17:39:57 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
17:40:07 <ais523> that was a brilliant fungot comment
17:40:07 <fungot> ais523: and other languages if you want to think about adding it to mycology!!!
17:40:17 <elliott> Mistake, and confusing tar output:
17:40:18 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ tar xf http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/df_31_18_linux.tar.bz2tar: Cannot connect to http: resolve failed
17:40:36 <fizzie> One of the playable Armok races is "flesh ball".
17:40:40 <fizzie> <mooz> they can't move. hit them and get "Og the flesh ball screams in pain. Og the flesh ball passes out."
17:40:44 <elliott> Hmph, Dwarf Fortress is dynamically-linked.
17:40:49 <fizzie> <mooz> and no matter what you do to him then, he'll just remain in that state
17:40:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the context of those quotes?
17:41:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: Slaves to Armok: God of Blood, Chapter I.
17:41:18 <fizzie> Except it wasn't called Chapter I then.
17:41:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, sounds familiar... Trying to remember which one it is
17:41:24 <fizzie> These are from 2003 or so.
17:41:41 <fizzie> <mooz> I mean, you can individually set the boiling point, density, color and rarity of the left foot 4th toe hair material
17:41:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Chapter II is called Dwarf Fortress.
17:42:17 <elliott> Vorpal: (Chapter III is called Sorting /dev/urandom; currently, the Prologue is being worked on, of which the first part is out -- Slaves to Armok: God of Blood, Chapter III: Sorting /dev/urandom, Prologue: Part I.)
17:42:46 <elliott> <mooz> I mean, you can individually set the boiling point, density, color and rarity of the left foot 4th toe hair material
17:42:48 <elliott> there can be no better game
17:43:21 <Vorpal> but, but... Can't I can't control the viscosity?
17:43:32 <fizzie> Here's also another person playing the game:
17:43:34 <fizzie> <@iood> UHH your dog crucifixion skill has increased from neophyte to beginner :p
17:43:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, is this a parody? :D
17:43:51 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't think so :)
17:43:53 <Vorpal> or is it actually like that
17:44:02 <fizzie> No, I think it's actually like that.
17:44:51 <fizzie> I believe it was supposed to just include a totally complete simulation of (a) reality. Isn't DF a bit like that too?
17:44:53 <Vorpal> elliott, where can one get this game?
17:45:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Dwarf Fortress is http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/features.html, and has a Linux binary. (It is closed source.)
17:45:10 <ais523> fizzie: since when did reality include masses of dwarves, elves and goblins?
17:45:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Chapter I is a free Windows binary; probably Wine works.
17:45:25 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.bay12games.com/armok/
17:45:32 <fizzie> ais523: Well, that's why it was "a reality", not "the".
17:45:34 <Vorpal> elliott, was chapter 2 FOSS or? I don't remember
17:45:44 <Gregor> It's fun for about seven minutes, then you just desperately want to kill all the little buggers and stop playing.
17:45:58 <elliott> Vorpal: No. But it does have a free Linux binary.
17:46:03 <elliott> Vorpal: This is what Dwarf Fortress looks like: http://diceofdoom.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/dwarffortress-big.png
17:46:20 <ais523> fizzie: oh, I took your (a) as introducing an ordered list of one element
17:46:28 <elliott> Hard to find a screenshot of chapter I that definitely isn't a screenshot of chapter II.
17:46:33 <ais523> that was a rather fun misinterpretation
17:46:44 <Vorpal> elliott, btw built a moderately secure dock inside the mountain. possible to see it all from behind the doors to spot enemies before you open the doors and such
17:47:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Will you turn off Peaceful now? :P
17:47:10 <zzo38> I want to see a code for a roguelike game that is versatile enough (but not too complicated in the implementaion) that you can have not only any race/class combination, but your character can be any kind of creature in the game, and that things can be added without interrupting existing things, and so on
17:47:32 <Vorpal> elliott, No. When I have the roof lit and the corner towers built. Then it is time
17:47:42 <elliott> It would be AWESOME to have a roguelike that has an actual physics engine.
17:47:52 <elliott> So that weapons are just coded objects, or whatever.
17:47:54 <zzo38> (For example, adding a new scroll without having to edit the code for scrolls in general, only add a new section to the code.)
17:49:48 <zzo38> Such as if you program it in Enhanced CWEB and there is one chapter for the kinds of scrolls, you write one section for each scroll, the code generation features in Enhanced CWEB should work good enough to make this work?
17:49:49 <elliott> fizzie: Osama Bin Laden lives in a Dwarf Fortress: http://i.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/photoshop/binladenfortress/originalfortress-hoopa.gif
17:49:54 <Vorpal> elliott, they have physics already. Just very different physics from this reality
17:50:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but all the physics reactions are hardcoded.
17:50:08 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean a totally generic roguelike engine, just physics + object definitions.
17:50:14 <elliott> Vorpal: ala ragdoll physics games
17:50:19 <Vorpal> elliott, well they are the fundamental laws of physics in that universe
17:50:25 <elliott> Vorpal: (A la minecraft, sort of :P)
17:50:46 <elliott> fizzie: Oh my: http://i.imgur.com/ch2PM.png
17:51:03 <elliott> Apparently this gentlemen died because something had sexual intercourse with a wound in his skull.
17:51:11 <elliott> I... am not sure if that is emergent behaviour or not.
17:51:18 <elliott> "Not to ruin the joke, but just in case anyone was confused on this, it was holding a loincloth in its hand and it decided to beat him to death with it."
17:52:39 <elliott> ./libs/Dwarf_Fortress: error while loading shared libraries: libSDL-1.2.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
17:52:40 <elliott> $ ls /usr/lib/libSDL-1.2.so.0
17:53:01 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe it is a broken symlink
17:53:02 <elliott> Links to a perfectly existing file.
17:53:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, ./df is a shell script.
17:53:09 <elliott> It probably does something WRONG
17:53:11 <Vorpal> elliott, file /usr/lib/libSDL-1.2.so.0 ./libs/Dwarf_Fortress
17:53:16 <Vorpal> elliott, 32/64 perhaps?
17:53:21 <elliott> $ file /usr/lib/libSDL-1.2.so.0 ./libs/Dwarf_Fortress
17:53:21 <elliott> /usr/lib/libSDL-1.2.so.0: symbolic link to `libSDL-1.2.so.0.11.3'
17:53:21 <elliott> ./libs/Dwarf_Fortress: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.8, stripped
17:53:43 <Vorpal> elliott, you need the multilib packages
17:53:46 <elliott> Yay, Debian has no 32-bit SDL.
17:54:07 <zzo38> You could have a generic roguelike engine with just physics + object definitions, but I think such thing could be slow and not work well and various other problems, too. Try my way of a roguelike engine see whether it works better?
17:54:11 <Vorpal> elliott, even arch has that
17:54:26 <Vorpal> elliott, does it have zsnes? If yes then it must have a 32-bit sd
17:54:29 <elliott> Vorpal: There's a 32-bit ncurses though!
17:54:30 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure SDL is in ia32-libs or what was that generic package.
17:54:44 <fizzie> It might be lacking some symlinks though, I had some related problems like that.
17:54:46 <elliott> Vorpal: No zsnes in amd64, though. Just checked.
17:54:58 <fizzie> 's no zsnes, that's true.
17:55:08 <zzo38> How many things in the "Criticize" section did you believe? http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town
17:55:13 <Gregor> snes9x-gtk is better than zsnes anyway.
17:55:21 <elliott> Gregor: bsnes is better :P
17:55:41 <Gregor> elliott: I spose if your system is fast enough ... which mine probably is, I've never actually tested it :P
17:55:50 <elliott> Gregor: That's actually a myth.
17:56:09 <elliott> Gregor: It has three modes; the insane one requires a good computer, the medium one requires a regular computer, the low one requires just about anything.
17:56:19 <elliott> Gregor: You can sacrifice anality for speed.
17:56:30 <elliott> Gregor: *My* problem was that the audio didn't like to sync without stuttering, which I blame on Linux audio for sucking.
17:56:51 <fizzie> It used to be so that zsnes was a lot faster than snes9x; but that was way back when.
17:56:55 <Gregor> Andreas Naive has a funny name.
17:57:00 <zzo38> Sacrifice anality for speed? Maybe instead you can sacrifice sanity for wood.
17:57:05 <elliott> Gregor: He isn't in the dictionary.
17:57:18 <Gregor> elliott: I should hope so, although his last name ought to be.
17:57:21 <elliott> Gregor: Or is that Andreas Gullible?
17:57:45 <elliott> fizzie: ./libs/Dwarf_Fortress: error while loading shared libraries: libSDL_image-1.2.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
17:58:06 <fizzie> That it might not have, then.
17:58:11 <fizzie> Though Ubuntu ia32-libs does.
17:58:45 <fizzie> I thought latest Debian also had facilities to automagically handle the installation of any "libfoo" package from 32-bit Debian properly into 64-bit multilib mess, but I have no idea whether they actually got that working or enabled it by default.
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18:00:32 <elliott> fizzie: That would require recompilation, unless the entire 32-bit repository's libraries think they're in /usr/lib32. Probably they think they're in /usr/lib.
18:01:15 <fizzie> Yes, I don't think it directly used the 32-bit repo packages.
18:02:03 <elliott> On Dwarf Fortress: http://i.imgur.com/nqfS9.png
18:02:55 <elliott> hey Vorpal can evil things sink to the bottom of the sea?????
18:03:00 <elliott> a creeper is above me in the water right now
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18:07:31 <zzo38> Please tell me which list items in the "Criticize" section you think are correct or partially correct or whatever opinion
18:07:49 <fizzie> The only thing I can find still referring to that thing is that in squeeze, ia32-libs has 101 conflicts, most of which are of the form "ia32-libsomething", and I think those were how the autogenerated packages were named. It seems to possibly have been abandoned.
18:08:49 <zzo38> The third section, titled "Criticize".
18:09:18 <ais523> elliott: context seems to be http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town
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18:09:43 <elliott> Has zzo38 actually linked to that before?
18:09:51 -!- sshc_ has joined.
18:10:55 <elliott> Vorpal: My new strategy is to swim at night.
18:12:02 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:13:58 <oklopol> if you swim, you can't really do anything can you?
18:14:03 <elliott> ais523: no, I got into a dead end and there was a Creeper there (follows you silently, screams, and then explodes, dealing a lot of damage); I retreated, and got onto some land since I couldn't really swim,
18:14:07 <elliott> ais523: where there was a zombie
18:14:12 <elliott> this was after a creeper had exploded on me
18:14:19 <elliott> I fought valiantly, but in a few seconds I died.
18:14:23 <elliott> oklopol: if you swim you can fight
18:14:34 <elliott> ais523: NetHack is so boring, make it better
18:14:45 <elliott> ais523: like maybe cut out all the normal dungeon levels
18:15:58 <zzo38> elliott: Do you think that would make NetHack better?
18:18:26 <zzo38> elliott: Then modify it to do that
18:20:14 <ais523> elliott: Gehennom is the most boring part, really; the rest of the game works pretty well
18:20:24 <elliott> ais523: I find the stock levels pretty boring!
18:20:30 <ais523> and I'm even used to Gehennom nowadays (it was actually far from boring in my last ascension)
18:20:42 <elliott> ais523: I watched Wooble ascend -- or was it fail to ascend? -- once; he was on the Planes and it was AWESOME.
18:20:52 <elliott> He kept farming puddings while lava warped around him and then praying about 100 times.
18:20:58 <elliott> And then inexplicably teleported to different levels.
18:21:04 <elliott> I sure didn't understand it but it looked fun.
18:21:09 <elliott> Also he was overburdened most of the time.
18:21:28 <ais523> who pudding-farms on the Planes?
18:21:39 <ais523> actually, that sounds like the sort of thing Wooble /would/ do
18:21:39 <elliott> ais523: technically, i don't think he farmed them
18:21:48 <elliott> ais523: but he /did/ offer a ton of them to his god
18:22:17 <elliott> ais523: what was that player that failed to ascend with like 394578348957349579485 gems because of a stupid mistake?
18:22:25 <elliott> ais523: I watched him try again (and succeed) a while back.
18:22:41 <elliott> ais523: The guy is... amazingly retro. He played without colours, without any graphics, without using walk, without... anything.
18:22:46 <elliott> Plain ASCII, all defaults.
18:23:08 <elliott> ais523: It was utterly boring: he had like 5 pet goblins, and they kept dropping stuff he gave to them, so he moved around and gave it back. Literally that for 15 minutes or so.
18:23:17 <elliott> I felt his pain^Wutter OCD insanity.
18:24:00 <elliott> hmph, http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/DeathOnAStick doesn't note the achievement
18:24:13 <Vorpal> pudding farming on the planes? awesome
18:24:29 <elliott> maybe he didn't actually ascend
18:24:57 <elliott> ais523: I think the problem with NetHack is that it'd be a lot more fun if 90% of it was automatic :)
18:25:29 <Vorpal> elliott, it wouldn't be nethack then though
18:25:38 <elliott> Vorpal: indeed, it'd be better!
18:26:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well that could be argued about. Personally I suspect I would find both playable
18:26:35 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean, I'm okay at NetHack I think, I can now get to the mines without asking for help every single turn, but it just gets so boring at one point and I give up.
18:26:37 <zzo38> So, which of the criticize you believe/opinion/option?
18:26:55 <elliott> Vorpal: But I'll always fondly remember the time I killed a member of the Watch and lived to tell the tale.
18:27:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Admittedly that had all of #nethack working on a solution.
18:27:08 <elliott> Vorpal: (The solution involved stealing. No joke.)
18:27:11 <zzo38> Vorpal: I mean this one http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town
18:27:17 <Vorpal> elliott, stealing his sabre?
18:27:30 <Vorpal> zzo38, can't run browser atm. Would result in swap trash
18:27:49 <zzo38> Vorpal: OK. Will plain text do?
18:27:51 <elliott> Vorpal: What I had to do was make it to a shop (hard when everyone's trying to kill you!), pick something up, escape the shop without paying, and then RUN AROUND TO THE FRONT OF THE SHOP, where the shkeep is -- this is while the Watch are trying to kill me.
18:27:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Then I repaid his debt.
18:27:59 <elliott> Vorpal: This pacified the Watch.
18:28:10 <Vorpal> zzo38, I'm not likely to look at it anyway.
18:28:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Evidently, they do not keep track of what they're angry at you for, and so any reconciling you do calms them no matter what it's for.
18:28:26 <zzo38> http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=Super_ASCII_MZX_Town&action=raw&ctype=text/css
18:28:55 <Vorpal> elliott, what did you do to annoy them though?
18:29:04 <elliott> Vorpal: Killed a Watchman, as I said.
18:29:18 <Vorpal> elliott, ah missed that bit
18:29:20 <elliott> Vorpal: (Why? One of my dogs (I had about 5 pets) started attacking one, and I was dumb enough to join in.)
18:29:23 <Vorpal> elliott, and why did you do that?
18:29:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Most of my pets died at the hands of the Watch after that. RIP.
18:29:41 <elliott> Vorpal: (I fled to the floor above to regain my HP which was at like 14 by the time I escaped.)
18:29:50 <elliott> Vorpal: oh, and even after I pacified the Watch, that wasn't the end of it
18:29:57 <elliott> Vorpal: since I had incredibly low HP from them attacking me
18:30:25 <elliott> Vorpal: specifically, I sat there to regain health, when a jackal approached me... long story short, I spent the next 150 turns writing Elbereth into the dirt with my fingers.
18:31:44 <ais523> elliott: oh, that's when you steal from a shop and then pay for the stuff you stole, in order to show the police you are law-abiding after all honest?
18:32:15 <elliott> ais523: apparently, murdering someone, stealing something and then paying it back is better than just murdering someone
18:32:57 <elliott> ais523: The most epic parts were running into the shop -- it wasn't near the entrance to the floor -- and then running from outside the shop round to the front (I blew a hole in the shop's walls, but the only direction it went was towards the Watch, so I basically walked right into their path)
18:33:02 <zzo38> Which terminals or terminal emulators support all of the escape commands in this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code
18:34:01 <elliott> ais523: what libcs does c-intercal work with?
18:36:28 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot I presume. Though possibly with reduced functionality. It needs GCC for some of the weird stuff.
18:36:51 <Vorpal> elliott, But if it mostly works on MPW then it mostly works on anything. And MPW definitely didn't use glibc :P
18:36:53 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38).
18:37:04 <elliott> Vorpal: But will it work with dietlibc? :)
18:37:31 <ais523> elliott: do you consider Inform 7 an esolang?
18:37:34 <elliott> Vorpal: But I'd rather ask first!
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18:40:31 <elliott> Vorpal: what soundcrad do you use again?
18:42:40 <Vorpal> elliott, "Soundblaster Live! 5.1"
18:42:47 <Vorpal> assuming you meant card
18:43:24 <elliott> Vorpal: no, what soundCRAD!
18:43:31 <elliott> Vorpal: (hmm, was there ever a non-5.1 SBL!? :P)
18:43:39 * elliott wonders if you can still purchase Sound Blasters
18:44:06 <fizzie> I think there was at least a Live! Value before they tagged 5.1 to the name.
18:44:10 <elliott> Vorpal: "The DSP had an internal fixed sample rate of 48 kHz, a standard AC'97 clock, meaning that the EMU10K1 always captured external audio-sources at the 48 kHz, then performed a sample-rate conversion on the 48 kHz waveform to the output the requested target rate (such as 44.1 kHz or 32 kHz). This rate-conversion step introduced IM distortion into the downsampled output. The SB/Live had great difficulty with resampling audio-CD source materia
18:44:10 <elliott> l (44.1 kHz) without introducing audible distortion."
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18:45:04 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. Wouldn't the audio-CD be read by the OS instead?
18:45:09 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:45:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Sure, but if the OS sends it as 44.1 kHz there'll be distortion.
18:45:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Either way, the OS has to resample it.
18:45:40 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway. Presumably the software does it. Since the result is great.
18:45:47 <elliott> Well, not either way, you know what I mean.
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18:47:19 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway the obvious solution is to use lcm(<all the common sample rates>) ;P
18:48:26 <elliott> Well, lcm(44100, 48000) = 7056000, so you're proposing a 7 megahertz sound system.
18:49:04 <Vorpal> hm green roofs are all the rage nowdays iirc. So why not use some roof space to grow wheat on my castle? :D
18:49:32 <elliott> " On the notices: what we are asking is that you do not link to your fork on the main page of this wiki, instead, please point to this discussion or another page that explains the situation. Linking to the fork on this page (or whichever you point to) is just fine. We are also asking that you make clear that this wiki will still be here, so that anyone who wants to stay or adopt it in the future understands that they can do so. We are generall
18:49:32 <elliott> y leaving notices in place for about 2 weeks, then removing them to allow the wiki a chance to revive."
18:49:40 <elliott> ais523: what is it that drives them to behave like this?
18:50:35 <fizzie> "To revive" is a nice way of saying "to confuse non-regular visitors".
18:51:28 <elliott> Heh, they've added a "MakeshiftSitenotice" template to a "minority" of pages to satisfy Wikia, i.e. all the important ones: http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Category:MakeshiftSitenotice
18:51:33 <elliott> "Please leave this notice here unless you assume responsibility for this page."
18:51:50 <elliott> "The point is that no one is going to do that, with those notices in place. The right to fork goes two ways, and this wiki should have every chance to be adopted and revived if that's its future."
18:51:57 <elliott> Oh, fuck off, NetHack players don't need your bullshit.
18:52:13 <elliott> "I accept that you are moving on, I hope that you will accept that you can't do that and control the wiki you are leaving."
18:52:17 <elliott> ais523: I think I've figured it out
18:52:38 <elliott> ais523: Wikia said they were a wiki host, but then they decided, retroactively, that they were an inter-wiki community
18:52:50 <elliott> ais523: therefore, whoever submitted the request to create the wiki is irrelevant, sort of like Usenet groups
18:53:04 <elliott> of course, this is phenomenally unfair given that this was *not* their original purpose.
18:53:06 <ais523> elliott: where specifically was that Wikia message?
18:53:14 <elliott> ais523: http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Wikihack:Community_Portal
18:53:27 <elliott> ais523: do you think my interpretation of Wikia's thinking is correct?
18:53:57 <ais523> ugh, I just had to add ?useskin=monobook to that
18:54:05 <ais523> I think I should write a Firefox extension to do that automatically
18:54:20 <elliott> "3.4.4 seems unlikely, unless a major security hole is discovered" --[[NetHackWiki:Next version]]
18:54:24 <elliott> I like the idea of a security hole in NetHack.
18:54:32 <ais523> major security holes /have/ been discovered
18:54:49 <ais523> e.g. if you install NetHack suid root, as some distros apparently do, it's possible to compromise the system through them
18:55:15 <elliott> News of the #tip command was leaked in July 2003 by Pat Rankin in this RGRN post:
18:55:15 <elliott> In February 2008, Pat Rankin revealed in this post:
18:55:16 <ais523> elliott: there are exploitable buffer overflows and dangling pointer bugs
18:55:17 <elliott> In May 2008, Pat Rankin wrote in this post:
18:55:20 <elliott> In March 2009, Pat Rankin wrote in this post:
18:55:22 <elliott> Rumors that Pat has since been executed by the other DevTeam members for these frequent breaches of secrecy remain unconfirmed.
18:55:28 <ais523> Pat Rankin is the only devteam member who ever contacts anyone
18:55:50 <ais523> there's no longer any evidence that the devteam have any members but Pat
18:55:54 <fizzie> The others have all gone and ascended, maybe.
18:56:09 <elliott> ais523: do the devteam actually *play* nethack? one would think they would have *some* sort of desire to be in the nethack community, if they did
18:56:37 <elliott> [[When reporting bugs to the DevTeam, it is possible that the responding member of the DevTeam reveals some information about the current development code concerning the reported bug.]]
18:56:59 <ais523> <Sansse> The right to fork goes two ways, and this wiki should have every chance to be adopted and revived if that's its future.
18:57:17 <elliott> ais523: that's what made me realise that Wikia don't consider wikis to be owned by their founders or community
18:57:22 <elliott> unlike their old position as a wiki host
18:57:29 <ais523> elliott: bhaak and I have been deliberately using that method to attempt to answer questions we needed to know about 3.5, for various reasons
18:57:43 <elliott> ais523: why did you need to know?
18:58:12 <elliott> ais523: also, I have a feeling that the next NetHack release might be the last
18:58:40 <ais523> that implies that there will be a next release
18:58:51 <elliott> ais523: I mean, they're too conservative to wildly change anything, and they've been incrementally fixing the code since, what, NetHack 3.0.0?
18:58:58 <ais523> and if the current official devteam wants to abandon NetHack for any reason, there'd be plenty of people available to continue the project
18:59:03 <elliott> ais523: so I have a feeling that they've spent the last few years combing over every line of code
18:59:11 <elliott> ais523: making it as perfect as they can
18:59:25 <elliott> ais523: and then they'll release NetHack 3.5.0, and state that any bugs are official, set-in-stone features
18:59:38 <elliott> ais523: I can't think of any other explanation for the near-complete silence and *huge* delay even for them.
18:59:50 <ais523> elliott: then I can use something like the boulder routing overflow to take over the game
19:00:01 <elliott> ais523: how do you know they won't fix that?
19:00:08 <ais523> (that one's really subtle, I had to change the code in such a way it was easy to trigger by mistake to find it)
19:00:21 <elliott> ais523: I mean, they've been getting bug reports on the latest release since 2003
19:00:32 <ais523> I don't know they won't find and fix it, but it's possible they won't
19:00:38 <elliott> ais523: not going to report it?
19:01:46 <elliott> ais523: anyway, just as NetHack is the picking-up of Hack, clearly any community-continued effort on NetHack would have to have a new name
19:02:07 <elliott> ais523: (WorldHack? UniHack?)
19:02:11 <ais523> well, although SporkHack deliberately doesn't want to be NetHack continued, I'm sure UnNetHack wouldn't mind picking up the torch
19:02:17 <ais523> I think people would likely start form an existing fork
19:02:28 <elliott> ais523: but they're liberal forks
19:02:30 <ais523> IRCHack would be pretty accurate for how things are organised nowadays
19:02:33 <elliott> ais523: they change a lot of gameplay and the like
19:02:37 <elliott> ais523: ah, IRCHack sounds like the perfect name
19:02:42 <ais523> elliott: I'm making a non-liberal fork, very slowly as I'm relatively busy
19:03:08 <elliott> ais523: well, yes, but (1) AceHack is a terrible name :) and (2) it's more a UI fixup, isn't it?
19:03:22 <elliott> ais523: haha, paxed has only ascended twice
19:03:50 <ais523> elliott: it's a UI and bug fixup
19:03:56 <ais523> because that's what I think NetHack needs right now
19:04:10 <Vorpal> <elliott> ais523: I can't think of any other explanation for the near-complete silence and *huge* delay even for them. <-- I have an alternative idea
19:04:13 <elliott> ais523: just rename it IRCHack, then, when NetHack development stops :)
19:04:18 <ais523> hopefully, everything should be uncontroversial apart from removing attempts to use deliberately bad UI to balance the game
19:04:19 <elliott> Vorpal: They're merging with Dwarf Fortress?
19:04:22 <Vorpal> elliott, the lead developer bet heavily on DNF being released first!
19:04:36 <elliott> well, that's not long to wait
19:04:55 <Vorpal> elliott, presumably it will be delayed again
19:05:05 <elliott> Vorpal: well, no, because the original devteam have been kicked off the project :)
19:05:14 <elliott> Vorpal: and all the perfectionists are presumably gone
19:05:26 <elliott> now it's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2K_Games
19:05:29 <Vorpal> elliott, I think the project makes anyone perfectionlist
19:05:51 <elliott> Vorpal: DNF is more like 5 games that they keep scrapping without releasing :)
19:06:02 <elliott> [[Jason Hall, host of The Jace Hall Show, featured Duke Nukem Forever in the show's premiere episode on June 4, 2008 and described his hands-on play experience with the game as "perfect", ending the segment with "I saw it. They have been working. It's not a myth. You're going to be pleased."[99] In a subsequent interview with 1UP.com, he described the game as "amazing" with the summation, "This might be the only game in history worth waiting 12 y
19:06:02 <elliott> ears for, perhaps longer.... It was good."[100] On 21 September, 2010, Hall confirmed, in an interview with Triplebeard.com, that there is a surprise for Duke fans when Season 4 of The Jace Hall Show debuts in mid-to-end of October, 2010.[101]]]
19:07:04 <elliott> ais523: in fact, if I was the Dev Team, I'd release 3.5.0 as 4.0.0 or something
19:07:12 <elliott> don't need 0s if it's the last version!
19:08:07 <Gregor> 4.0.0.0.0r0b0a0 Zero Edition
19:10:11 <elliott> "As we have been committed to publishing cutting-edge games, it's obvious that Duke Nukem Forever belongs on the g.o.d. label," said Mike Wilson, CEO of Gathering. "Between this game and Max Payne, 3D Realms will be regarded as the undisputed king of both first-and third-person shooters by the end of next year. To be part of that has been a dream of Gathering's since our inception."
19:11:29 <ais523> elliott: what's the date of that quote?
19:11:51 <ais523> personally, I find the most hilarious fact about DNF is that it was under continuous development for most of the time it was missing
19:12:00 <ais523> they kept doing complete rewrites with different engines, which is what slowed it down
19:12:09 <elliott> ais523: (also, "missing"?)
19:14:16 <ais523> elliott: well, being continuously bumped
19:18:07 <elliott> ais523: http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/NetHackWiki:Next_version_pool look at all the dead, crossed-out fools
19:18:20 <elliott> [[# December 24th --Feagradze 03:56, June 28, 2010 (UTC) Two days after the end of the world, it will be announced that NetHack version 4.0 is actually a Hollywood slapstick action-comedy starring Izchak Miller as the player character. Slogan: "You'll laugh. You'll cry. You'll think. You'll die." It will be availble via Astral Plane Motion Pictures (APMP, for short).]]
19:19:01 <elliott> [edit] 5736650863230 (Sun entered into red giant phase)
19:19:01 <elliott> * Version releaced by octopus like alien race - Kogut
19:23:18 <elliott> What if they released it on some obscure website no one here knows about? 22:30, August 6, 2010 (UTC)
19:23:28 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
19:23:33 <elliott> ais523: hmm, there are no bets for 2011 on that list
19:31:58 <Gregor> cheater99: The far-northwestern part of Germany.
19:32:05 <Gregor> So far northwest you'd swear you were in the UK.
19:54:05 * elliott figures out what patches to add to nethack
20:01:19 -!- Peping has joined.
20:01:37 -!- augur has joined.
20:01:44 <Peping> Hello! maybe you remember me...
20:01:56 <Peping> I am the guy who revived braincopter
20:02:27 <Peping> I made a new interpreter and a python script that carves brainfuck to images
20:03:05 <Peping> the script is kinda lame and not well documented. It's been a while since i finished it, so I don't really know how it works
20:03:18 <Peping> Any idea where should I upload this all?
20:04:44 <cheater99> hmm doesn't the esolang wiki allow this?
20:04:58 <elliott> Peping: To the esolangs wiki?
20:05:20 <Peping> I'm not registered. Does it matter?
20:05:26 <elliott> Peping: You can put code there, either on the Braincopter page, your user page, or a subpage or either.
20:05:38 <elliott> Peping: It doesn't, but if you want to put it on your user page you will of course have to register.
20:06:10 <Peping> ok.. I guess I'll register.
20:06:15 <coppro> youre not registered so you cant run as a candidate
20:06:24 <elliott> Peping: coppro is our friendly neighbourhood bot
20:07:02 <Sgeo_> Number of nicks elliott has called a bot: At least 2
20:07:04 <oklopol> someone should fix that typo
20:07:38 <oklopol> someone once thought i was a bot, if elliott was here then, he probably told said person i am one
20:08:04 <Peping> oh crap... registration. It's night here and the registration page wants me to solve maths... O.o
20:08:20 <Peping> 63-6 = ? :D Ihad to ask my sister
20:08:48 <oklopol> are you 4 or are you too cool to be able to do arithmetic because you're a math major
20:09:24 <Peping> well... this school year I got A's from all the tests and exams yet
20:09:31 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:09:49 <oklopol> so too cool, just not in uni yet
20:10:04 <oklopol> school might be uni i guess
20:10:19 <Peping> well it's not. I'm on High
20:10:29 <oklopol> i thought Sgeo_ just did today
20:10:50 <Peping> plus I'm wasted. I spent the whole day cooking, doing good deeds and programming this useless piece of software
20:10:52 <elliott> that's an american abomination
20:11:09 <fizzie> Unischool is for everyone.
20:11:15 <elliott> in fact we should just bomb the usa
20:11:44 <cheater99> Peping: you should release it as a python module
20:12:07 <Peping> cheater99: the interpreter? No.
20:12:19 <Peping> I don't have the balls to do that
20:12:30 <Peping> Today was a great day :D
20:12:48 <Peping> it was a national holiday here
20:13:25 <oklopol> we had this seminar and we achieved nothing, and then i had this lecture and learned nothing, and then i slept all day
20:13:31 <Peping> I just hope that nobody will delete my account because they found my last name offensive... Yahoo didn't want to let me register.
20:14:12 <cheater99> meaning: i browsed blags and farums and watched bubble gum crisis
20:14:18 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:14:24 <oklopol> well, the sleeping was me doing work at home
20:14:38 <Peping> cheater99: did you feed the weed on farmville well?
20:15:03 <oklopol> maybe he didn't read your elaboration befor saying that
20:15:17 <oklopol> and just made the same joke as you
20:15:32 <cheater99> i understand they're both the same edit distance.
20:15:42 <cheater99> but you can't really browse farms.
20:15:43 <elliott> <Peping> I just hope that nobody will delete my account because they found my last name offensive... Yahoo didn't want to let me register. <Peping> Hornych :)
20:15:48 <elliott> sorry, the secret cabal of eso rejects you
20:16:25 <Peping> it would be a cool name for a doctor
20:16:47 <Peping> Joe Hornych, the vagina doctor :D
20:17:02 <Peping> but I guess poland's got it too
20:17:21 <elliott> ais523: heh, you know the glibc documentation warning for abort() saying "Future Change Warning: Proposed Federal censorship regulations may prohibit us from giving you information about the possibility of calling this function. We would be required to say that this is not an acceptable way of terminating a program."?
20:17:28 <elliott> ais523: above it in the HTML source is <!-- Put in by rms. Don't remove. -->
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20:18:56 <cheater99> oklopol: is there an esolang where the space/stack/heap/whatever is an iteration of a fractal?
20:19:12 <elliott> Vorpal: I wonder what the Christian glibc maintainers think of that. :)
20:19:21 <oklopol> cheater99: i don't think so
20:19:23 <elliott> well, *glibc documentation
20:19:42 * elliott waits for Vorpal to respond with a "?" indicating he didn't get the original joke
20:20:07 <oklopol> also i'm not entirely sure what you mean by that
20:20:40 <cheater99> well, you know, most languages have some sort of primary data structure
20:21:22 <cheater99> be it a graph (map reduce etc), the natural numbers (stacks, etc), trees (parallelizable languages)
20:21:24 <oklopol> or well most esolangs anyway, or we disagree on what a "primary data structure is"
20:21:29 <pikhq> Yes, Lisp with its lists, Tcl with its strings, C with its "here, have 2^n-1 chars of address space. Have fun?"
20:21:44 <cheater99> so basically you're using some sort of construct from mathematics
20:21:56 <cheater99> so, the next step is fractals, of course
20:23:01 <Vorpal> elliott, of course I get it. And no clue what they would think
20:23:18 <elliott> <pikhq> Yes, Lisp with its lists, Tcl with its strings, C with its "here, have 2^n-1 chars of address space. Have fun?"
20:23:25 <elliott> pikhq: voila, non-power-of-two address space
20:23:44 <cheater99> pikhq: isn't tcl a stack-based language though?
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20:24:37 <pikhq> cheater99: Tcl does also have an abomination-stack, yes.
20:24:38 <oklopol> i don't think they are very stack-based
20:24:57 <pikhq> (I can't call it a normal stack, because you can do a *lot* of nasty things to that call stack.)
20:25:03 <oklopol> s/they/c/, i don't actually know tcl
20:25:35 <cheater99> pikhq: you can do a lot of nasty things to any stack as long as you can break out to C form your language :p
20:25:53 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No, but you can do pretty much all the same bizarro stack manipulation stuff you could do in non-standard C.
20:27:45 <elliott> pikhq: can you do continuations?
20:28:01 <elliott> oklopol: "i don't think c are"?
20:29:22 <pikhq> It'd be hard, but I'm pretty sure you could.
20:30:38 <elliott> pikhq: "hard"? you just need to copy the call stack and then replace it
20:30:53 <pikhq> elliott: It's a bit of a hack to actually modify the call stack.
20:31:30 <elliott> pikhq: can you pop from it without actually returning?
20:32:38 <elliott> pikhq: then just pop everything and push the stuff from the saved stack
20:34:43 -!- Zuu has joined.
20:34:48 -!- Zuu has quit (Client Quit).
20:34:58 -!- Zuu has joined.
20:35:54 <pikhq> elliott: It's just a bit of a pain to save the actual local variables from said stack. Not impossible, just a pain.
20:36:06 <pikhq> (involving info locals to save and upvar to restore)
20:46:23 <cheater99> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Julia_Mandelbrot_relationship_map_300_%2890,000_sets%29_.png
20:46:33 * Zuu comes onto elliott
20:46:35 <cheater99> A Julia set plot showing julia sets for different values of c, the plot resembles the Mandelbrot set
20:47:17 <Zuu> i figured if it was allright with pikhq, i wouldnt hold back :>
20:47:53 * Zuu might be taking stuffs out of context... but only slighty
20:48:47 <Zuu> ok, so that wasnt fun... *goes elsewhere with his lame jokes*
20:48:57 <oklopol> if you'd said "comes on elliott", it would've been easier to understand
20:51:12 <elliott> "Choose any monster as a starting pet"
20:51:32 <elliott> Gregor: Remember kids, "fellatio" is only N letters away from "felony".
20:51:39 * Zuu cuddles Gregor as a bribe for not telling the cops :P
20:52:03 <elliott> Vorpal: what's the useful patches apart from that hpcolour one
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20:58:50 <olsner> cheater99: that looks interesting, but I don't understand what's being displayed
20:59:36 -!- wareya_ has joined.
21:01:10 <cheater99> A Julia set plot showing julia sets for different values of c, the plot resembles the Mandelbrot set
21:01:21 <Peping> ehm.. excuse me. May i have a question? Where exactly do I upload stuff on esolang? it seems like the "Upload file" option on the wiki works only for multimedia, no zip files, no python scripts,...
21:01:24 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:01:36 <elliott> Peping: Just put the code in the page...
21:01:44 <elliott> Peping: Surround it with <pre><nowiki>YOUR CODE</nowiki></pre>
21:01:48 <elliott> Peping: That'll show it as koed.
21:01:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No need for an archive.
21:02:02 <elliott> At least not here, it's just a script.
21:02:10 <Peping> elliott: well... not really if I want to upload C source and executables.
21:02:15 <elliott> Peping: Don't upload executables.
21:02:34 <elliott> Nobody uses them (or trusts them). Also, nobody uses Windows here, so they're unlikely to be helpful at all.
21:02:35 <cheater99> what are you, some sort of HACKER?
21:02:57 <elliott> Peping: Just put C code on e.g. User:Peping/Braincopter_interpreter.
21:03:00 <Peping> oh... sorry, I'm one of the majority of the internet. I am using executables
21:03:17 <elliott> Peping: Right, well, nobody really uses Windows here.
21:03:21 <elliott> So executables wouldn't be helpful.
21:03:29 <elliott> Also, we all have C compilers.
21:04:39 <Peping> if I want to upload a set of files somewhere, and I want it to last there forever... Where should I put them?
21:05:30 <Peping> elliott: untrustworthy, if that's a word
21:05:39 <elliott> Peping: Or you could submit it to the esoteric archive, but I don't think it's actively maintained at all.
21:06:09 <Peping> that's where I wanted to put it, but I don't know how to gain access to it. svn? ftp?
21:06:39 <Peping> I'm reading the readme now
21:07:20 <Peping> ok.. no, the readme doesn't say anything about uploading stuff
21:08:13 <elliott> Peping: You have to submit it.
21:08:22 <elliott> Peping: To Graue, who is busy with other things these days.
21:08:33 <elliott> Peping: I recommend just condensing the code into one file.
21:08:48 <elliott> Peping: Failing that, you can put every file separately on http://sprunge.us/ and link to each.
21:09:21 <cheater99> don't listen to elliott, just make multiple pastes, and tell people what file names to store them under
21:10:23 <Peping> oh dear... too difficult to do on windows. I'll just put it somewhere and make sure that it'll be availibel to download for next 5 years.. I hope somebody will take it over by that time.
21:12:01 <elliott> Peping: Or use a different pastebin.
21:12:17 <elliott> That should be easier on your limited OS.
21:13:41 <oklopol> cheater99: no actually he's a straight-A student
21:14:23 <cheater99> oklopol: oh, i bet in that case he hasn't got time for childish things like copy-pasting.
21:14:51 <oklopol> maybe his sister could do it for him
21:16:19 <Peping> :D You dare to mock me :D I'm sorry for wanting advices from you and then solving the problem completely otherwise and far from what you advised...
21:16:30 <elliott> Peping: You sound like a moron.
21:16:49 <elliott> oklopol: I TOTALLY AM (or am i?)
21:17:23 <oklopol> well elliott is, but i was just faking mocking you
21:17:29 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: what's the useful patches apart from that hpcolour one <-- menu colour
21:18:03 <Vorpal> elliott, allows you to colour code your inventory based on regexp
21:18:15 <Vorpal> (or glob, but no one uses that variant)
21:18:42 <Vorpal> helps a lot to avoid YASD due to mixing up cursed and blessed items :P
21:19:32 <elliott> Vorpal: i tend to read things before using them, but ok
21:19:38 <elliott> Vorpal: regexp sounds like pain, is there a predefined set
21:20:23 <Vorpal> elliott, well there is a common one used by many on nao
21:21:37 <Vorpal> you just copy and paste that to your .nethackrc
21:22:11 <elliott> Vorpal: ais doesn't like to be bugged about nethack.
21:22:25 <Vorpal> well I don't remember the name of it
21:22:27 <elliott> olsner: in some sort of crisis
21:22:34 <Vorpal> don't have it handy here
21:22:42 <Vorpal> elliott, really? is that confirmed?
21:22:46 <elliott> olsner: shell account used for email/irc is gone, last we've heard of him in an esolang-related space is today:
21:22:52 <elliott> You may be anal-retentive, but apparently not anal-retentive enough to keep the email address on your home page up to date! What manner of perfidious chicanery is this perfidious chicanery? Please email me your working email address, if you have one. Thank you kindly. Sincerely, the guy who emailed Ørjan only to receive a 554 User Account has Expired response from nvg.ntnu.no, November somethingth, 2010
21:22:53 <elliott> Sorry, I honestly cannot manage to handle this right now. --Ørjan 04:45, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
21:22:56 <elliott> first message is from cpressey
21:23:36 <Vorpal> ah good that he is alive then
21:23:50 <Vorpal> elliott, how did cpressey get hold of an up-to-date email?
21:24:09 <Vorpal> elliott, how did he get a reply then?
21:24:27 <elliott> Vorpal: We knew that he is alive all this time, he's posted comments to a blog...
21:24:33 <Vorpal> argh wtf. *kicks weird window redrawing lag
21:24:50 <elliott> Vorpal: did you build night shelters even when starting off in peaceful?
21:25:11 <Vorpal> elliott, yes. To get into the spirit of things
21:25:21 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway atm I'm admiring my green roof
21:25:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Psht, you're not nearly lazy enough.
21:25:33 <olsner> I'm glad he's still around somewhere, then I can just wait for his crisis to resolve itself and not worry about it
21:25:51 -!- Hiant has joined.
21:27:33 <Hiant> I have created a bit of a puzzle, and wanted to know if anyone was interested in giving it a try.
21:27:53 <Vorpal> elliott, plan: become completely self-sufficient without going out the door :P
21:28:11 <Vorpal> elliott, thus I plan an indoor friendly mob garden too
21:28:32 <Hiant> Are you talking about minecraft?
21:28:33 <Vorpal> it is easy to "lead" the grass spreading in
21:28:46 <Vorpal> elliott, always the past week or so :P
21:29:01 <olsner> haha, I thought you were talking about real life
21:29:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I assume it will die down in here some time soon
21:29:06 <Hiant> I love abusing the fact that doors are two blocks tall.
21:29:20 <Vorpal> Hiant, abusing that? how?
21:29:30 <olsner> Vorpal: "become completely self-sufficient without going out the door" sounds exactly like something you'd plan in real life
21:29:42 <Vorpal> olsner, that would be awesome
21:29:49 <olsner> and Phantom_Hoover built his own shelter, like they did before prefab housing
21:30:01 <elliott> <olsner> Vorpal: "become completely self-sufficient without going out the door" sounds exactly like something you'd plan in real life
21:30:01 <Hiant> Vorpal: Simple. If you place one at, lets say, the bottom of the ocean, it creates a 2 block tall space of air.
21:30:13 <elliott> online shopping + dedicate basement to compacted waste storage
21:30:16 <Vorpal> olsner, "indoor friendly mob" doesn't sound like real life though :P
21:30:21 <elliott> + recycle as much as possible
21:30:32 <olsner> "mob garden" makes no sense at all
21:30:32 <Vorpal> Hiant, easier to use reeds then.
21:30:45 <Vorpal> Hiant, or why not ladders
21:30:54 <olsner> so I have no idea if it's something that can or can't be done in reality
21:30:55 <Vorpal> reeds at least is "cheaper"
21:30:58 <elliott> olsner: there was a reddit IAmA about someone who was living off his parents' money doing this, basically, of course to obsessive levels -- in six years had never left the house, not even to take out the trash
21:31:09 <elliott> of course he defended this as just being coincidental :)
21:31:20 <Hiant> Vorpal: True, but then again you can close doors, which I used to create an underwater shifting labyrinth.
21:31:35 <Vorpal> Hiant, steel doors then?
21:31:45 <Vorpal> Hiant, also hm. Couldn't you just swim up?
21:31:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I shall try knocking out the wall and putting a door in.
21:32:45 <Hiant> Vorpal: That is the best part....if you place enough sand on top of the doors, and then dig at it from the bottom, it slowly creates a nigh-inescapable current. (for mobs
21:32:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Holy shit! Underground lava lake.
21:33:10 <Vorpal> elliott, uh. That is fairly common
21:33:25 <Vorpal> elliott, you are near the bottom
21:33:38 <elliott> Vorpal: it is more the context that is unusual
21:33:41 <Hiant> Vorpal: I am thinking of a maze of creepers, with the center containing the only entrance to my base.
21:34:03 <Vorpal> Hiant, creepers would probably be more painful for you than anyone trying to enter
21:34:30 <Vorpal> Hiant, unless you use obsidian. As I do for the lower parts of the walls of this fort I'm working on
21:34:37 <Vorpal> elliott, screenshot then
21:34:54 <Hiant> Vorpal: It would keep me on my toes. Plus, a well made redstone wire system would allow me to control the shape of the entire thing.
21:35:18 <Hiant> Vorpal: Enter the right combination, and a simple path opens up. Fail, and be doomed!
21:35:40 <Vorpal> Hiant, but hm what would prevent someone from just plopping down in the middle?
21:35:55 <Vorpal> if not mp then less of an issue
21:36:35 <Hiant> Vorpal: Not mp, but if it was, I would rig the entire system to a redstone clock, causing it to shift every few min.
21:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so now I have my own little 3x3x2 cave in a cliff face with a door to the outside.
21:37:00 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm trying to build my way up to the surface but it's not happening! :P
21:38:16 <Vorpal> elliott, what is not happening?
21:38:25 <Vorpal> elliott, also presumably you could go up the way you went down
21:38:33 <elliott> Vorpal: I lost my way and fell a lot.
21:39:10 <Vorpal> elliott, walk carefully and mark your path
21:39:30 <Vorpal> elliott, also: dig a diagonal tunnel up. (45°) And I hope you carry enough wood to make more pickaxes if need be.
21:39:36 <elliott> Vorpal: I just built a workbench underneath my feet so I can get a new pickaxe.
21:39:49 <Vorpal> if you are short on wood you want to use iron. Since that will last longer
21:39:56 <Vorpal> or even diamond if you found any
21:40:22 <Vorpal> and conserve wood. Use coal for furnace if you need to smelt iron
21:40:31 <elliott> Vorpal: I have almost nothing; I just started this game.
21:40:31 <Vorpal> elliott, so where is the screenshot of that lava light
21:40:38 <elliott> Vorpal: The lava itself was boring.
21:40:50 <elliott> Vorpal: But there were lavafalls and waterfalls literally all over the place, near the surface.
21:41:06 <Vorpal> elliott, there was no still lava lake near the surface I bet
21:41:20 <elliott> Ha! I emerged near the place I first entered that cave system.
21:41:20 <Vorpal> and still lava lake = way better. Add water and get obsidian
21:41:26 -!- Peping has left (?).
21:41:40 <Hiant> Vorpal: I wish that portals worked horizontal...
21:42:08 <elliott> Vorpal: There was water nearby too. Guess I missed an opportunity.
21:42:29 <Vorpal> elliott, you need a diamond pickaxe to mine obsidian
21:42:48 <Vorpal> elliott, and you would have needed a bucket presumably (3 iron)
21:42:53 <Hiant> Vorpal: Because then mining obsidian would create 2 gates, the one formed from mining, and the one made by the mined obsidian.
21:43:41 <Hiant> Vorpal: It can be such a pain waiting for the obsidian to break.
21:44:55 <Vorpal> Hiant, I should know. Let me find url to screenshots of the fort I'm working on
21:45:10 <elliott> Hiant: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/screenshots/fort/
21:45:41 <elliott> All of this and Vorpal still plays on Peaceful.
21:45:48 <Vorpal> oh nice yellow text. "Superfrgilist[... you know the rest and I'm lazy]"
21:46:35 <Vorpal> elliott, I plan to switch once the fort exterior is complete :P
21:46:41 <Vorpal> elliott, and remember, this is my first game
21:46:50 <elliott> Vorpal: That's still your first game?!
21:47:02 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I build on the same world of course
21:47:06 <Vorpal> elliott, why shouldn't I?
21:47:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I have another game, not on peaceful.
21:47:12 <Hiant> Vorpal: Very nice. I dont really have any screenshots of my fort, but if you want, imagine sealab. (Its my inspiration for this one)
21:47:13 <Vorpal> that is all new map gen
21:47:15 <elliott> Vorpal: You haven't died once? :P
21:47:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I died from falling in lava twice :P
21:47:30 <elliott> oklopol: i think he might not welcome that :P
21:47:45 <oklopol> he certainly would, i'm really nice
21:47:46 <Vorpal> Hiant, sealab means nothing to me
21:48:15 <Hiant> Vorpal, its an old show. Lots of underwater glass domes and boxy labs.
21:48:22 <oklopol> after forcing him to let me in his apartment, i'd be really nice
21:48:35 <Vorpal> Hiant, I tested around this fort with TNT to make sure it is creaper safe.
21:48:45 <elliott> oklopol: doesn't he live with his parents
21:48:47 <Vorpal> well the doors are a bit of a problem
21:48:53 <Vorpal> have to figure out something
21:49:26 <elliott> oklopol: he's mentioned such
21:49:26 <Hiant> My suggestion would be a chute of obsidian with a ladder, Vorpal
21:49:48 <Vorpal> Hiant, hm can't creepers climb iirc?
21:49:55 <Vorpal> according to the minecraft wiki
21:50:15 <Vorpal> I haven't seen one doing that yet though
21:50:25 <elliott> oklopol: i swear he's said so.
21:50:27 <Hiant> Vorpal, really? I wouldnt know, I normally build my bases underwater, where mobs dont matter.
21:51:19 <Vorpal> Hiant, I have a deep minecraft transit system. iirc the map viewer placed it at depth 40 or such (0 = bedrock)
21:51:25 <oklopol> the only concrete thing i remember is is that he does not see his father all the time, therefore they don't live in the same place
21:51:38 <elliott> oklopol: i don't recall him saying that
21:51:41 <fizzie> Gotten from another channel, may be old-old: http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lc1ckr9rF21qbmqmlo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0RYTHV9YYQ4W5Q3HQMG2&Expires=1290094944&Signature=vCmBniQ84G2qMF0YqjTiDEaZubw%3D
21:51:50 <oklopol> most of our conversations are in pm
21:51:57 <elliott> fizzie: It's reddit-front-page-old.
21:52:39 <Hiant> Vorpal: I have a solution for your door problem: Ladder, terminating in steel door. Make it controlled by a button.
21:52:43 <oklopol> anyway i would certainly like to see proof one way or the other
21:52:54 <oklopol> maybe i should put up a message on esolang
21:53:10 <Vorpal> Hiant, hm a steel door can still be exploded by a creeper
21:53:28 <Vorpal> Hiant, if it is standing next to it
21:54:23 <Vorpal> Hiant, anyway my fort will have defences when it is done. An inner moat of lava. (There is a nether portal inside the fort that end up quite close to a huge lava cavern. Should be quite easy to get lots of lava)
21:54:32 <Vorpal> then netherstone/cactus barrier outside
21:54:54 <Vorpal> the netherstone being on fire
21:54:57 <Hiant> Vorpal: Thats the trick. Make it so that _it_cant_stand_next_ to it. Make the chute 1x6 tall. Then have the ladder just end, terminating at the base of the door.
21:55:14 <Hiant> Vorpal: 6 tall, that is.
21:55:33 <Hiant> There is no where to stand.
21:55:50 <Vorpal> Hiant, on the top of the ladder? or would the ladder only be inside the chute?
21:56:15 <Vorpal> and where would the door be? at the top or the bottom?
21:56:53 <Hiant> Vorpal: The ladder would only be inside the chute. The door would be the top. From the bottom, the blocks would be: ladder, ladder, ladder, ladder, Steel Door, Steel Door.
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21:57:23 <Vorpal> Hiant, oh and my fort will have towers in the corners on the upper level. brick towers. I found quite a lot of clay. I'm in the process of smelting it now
21:57:46 <Vorpal> Hiant, ah but couldn't it stand on the very top of the ladder? I know I managed that
21:58:19 <Hiant> Vorpal: At the top? Like with no clear space to go? Then yes, I suppose so.
21:59:35 <Vorpal> Hiant, or would the door be on a different side of the shaft than the ladder?
21:59:48 <Vorpal> a bit tricky to get in and out perhaps
22:00:36 <Vorpal> sure a button, but good luck not falling down yourself
22:00:50 <Hiant> Vorpal, its hard to tell. But it seems like a precaution against a rare danger, so the door on the same side as the ladder would work fine, I suppose.
22:01:42 <Hiant> Also, I have been working on a esolang, and realized it has fantastic puzzle potential. I was wondering of anyone would like to give it a try.
22:01:46 <Vorpal> Hiant, and I presume it would need to be iron. which would be tricky to open while on the ladder
22:01:58 <Hiant> Vorpal: Yes, Iron.
22:03:01 <Vorpal> Hiant, about this esolang then: details?
22:03:17 <Hiant> Vorpal: Here are the rules; There are exactly 9 built-in rules. The only valid instructions are hexadecimal digits. You give me an input string, and I will give you the output (Its deterministic).
22:03:55 <Hiant> Vorpal: The goal is to try to derive as many rules as possible. And calculating.
22:04:06 <Vorpal> Hiant, well I gave you one :P
22:04:35 <oklopol> Hiant: we've talked about doing this kind of challenges
22:04:59 <Hiant> oklopol: Really? I have heard no such thing...
22:05:06 <oklopol> is the problem: given a blackbox interpreter, deduce the language
22:05:24 <oklopol> we've talked about this twice, quickly
22:05:34 <Hiant> Vorpal: F|0|0|F|C|7|C|8
22:06:03 <elliott> Unless you ACTUALLY ENCODED a reference to f00f in the language, which I find unlikely :P
22:06:06 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe your string was output of mine
22:06:18 <elliott> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F00f
22:06:22 <Hiant> oklopol: I see, and the conclusion of that discussion was? Sorry, I was confused. I will pair input/output from now on.
22:06:35 <elliott> Hiant: What is "F|0|0|F|C|7|C|8" the output of?
22:06:52 <Vorpal> Hiant, conclusions so far: the language has non-deterministic cross-talk ;P
22:07:18 <elliott> Hiant: What is the output of "f0", which Vorpal said?
22:07:19 <Hiant> elliott: => F|0|0|F|C|7|C|8
22:07:42 <elliott> Hiant: And what is the output of "f00"?
22:07:56 <elliott> Hiant: And what is the output of "f00"?
22:08:42 <Hiant> A=>No output. Nonterminating.
22:08:45 <elliott> Hiant: I trust you to interpolate the values.
22:09:00 <elliott> Vorpal: all we need to do is come up with a program that halts iff the Goldbach conjecture is true
22:09:04 <elliott> Vorpal: and we have him CORNERED
22:09:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Goldbach is easier.
22:09:41 <Hiant> 0=>0, 1=>Nonterminating., 2=>0
22:09:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Collatz is easiest.
22:09:57 <elliott> Hiant: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, A, B, C, D, E, F plz :P
22:10:09 <Hiant> 3=> Nonterminating
22:11:35 <Hiant> 4=>Nonterminating, 5=>Nonterminating, 6=>(Nothing), 7=>7, 8=>Nonterminating
22:12:53 <Vorpal> Hiant, really hard. Can you tell us some leads? Such as if it has a stack or a heap or a tape or a queue or whatever?
22:13:05 <Hiant> 9=>Nonterminating, A..E => Nonterminating. F=> F
22:13:28 <oklopol> make a few example programs
22:13:32 <Hiant> Vorpal: Simple. There is only a datastring. And that datastring is the execution string itself.
22:13:46 <Vorpal> Hiant, so self-modifying? Is it TC
22:13:53 <Vorpal> or don't you know that yet
22:14:06 <Hiant> Vorpal: Also, no i/o. And no idea about TC.
22:14:19 <Hiant> A proof would be...interesting.
22:14:32 <Vorpal> ah. Then that might be trickier
22:14:47 <Vorpal> if it had been trivially TC then it might have been similar to something else
22:15:28 <Vorpal> Hiant, so what about 330
22:15:35 <Hiant> Have an example (i/o): 1|4|8|9|4|2|9|7|8|9|F / 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|3|8|9|F|8|9|2|9|9
22:15:55 <Hiant> 330 => Nonterminating.
22:16:16 <olsner> are those |-characters part of the input/output?
22:16:37 <Hiant> olsner: They delineate commands, nothing else.
22:17:12 <elliott> e.g. 330 -> 303 -> 330 -> ...
22:17:29 <Hiant> elliott: Okay, but remember it does not terminate...
22:17:58 <elliott> tell us the trace every time
22:18:29 <Vorpal> Hiant, well show us the pattern it repeats in?
22:19:04 <Hiant> Well, the pattern matures, but yes.
22:19:13 <Vorpal> now we know that at least this configuration appends to the end
22:19:23 <Vorpal> rather than, say, inserting
22:19:33 <Vorpal> Hiant, what about 033?
22:20:32 <Hiant> 0|3|3|3|0|3|3|3|0|3
22:20:55 <Vorpal> then 0 is *not* terminate program now
22:21:29 <oklopol> yeah, is it still 0=>0 or does it depend on time
22:21:30 <Vorpal> you said it terminated so
22:21:46 <Vorpal> Hiant, so does that terminate?
22:21:55 <Vorpal> I wonder what termination condition is
22:22:19 <Hiant> Vorpal: Yes. In 0 steps.
22:22:38 <Vorpal> elliott, that is quite likely
22:22:46 <Vorpal> Hiant, do you know of anything that terminates but takes more than one step to do so?
22:23:00 <Hiant> Vorpal: Quite a few, actually.
22:23:52 <Vorpal> Hiant, what about the empty program?
22:24:32 <Hiant> 1|4|8|9|4|2|9|7|8|9|F
22:24:33 <Hiant> 1|4|8|9|4|2|9|7|8|9|F
22:24:35 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|4|2|9|7|8|9|F
22:24:36 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|4|2|9|7|8|9|F|8
22:24:38 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|4|2|9|7|8|9|F|8|9
22:24:40 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|7|8|9|F|8|9
22:24:41 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|7|8|9|F|8|9|2
22:24:43 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|7|8|9|F|8|9|2
22:24:45 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|3|8|9|F|8|9|2
22:24:47 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|3|8|9|F|8|9|2|9
22:24:47 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|3|8|9|F|8|9|2|9|9
22:24:49 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|3|8|9|F|8|9|2|9|9
22:24:50 <Hiant> 1|0|8|9|0|2|9|3|8|9|F|8|9|2|9|9
22:24:52 <Hiant> Vorpal: What empty program, 0?
22:25:30 <Vorpal> Hiant, the one of length 0
22:26:08 <Hiant> Not invalid, but there is no execution, so it instantly terminates.
22:26:36 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:26:49 <Vorpal> Hiant, okay we know the termination condition now. That the program doesn't change any more
22:26:58 <Vorpal> Hiant, are we right that is one of the rules?
22:27:22 * Sgeo attempted to show his Perl professor some Haskell
22:27:22 <oklopol> his example terminates, but actually it spams the same thing forever
22:27:44 <Hiant> Vorpal: No. But I will give you the only built-in failsafe: A program of length 0 terminates. (This is not a rule of the language)
22:28:18 <oklopol> well, not that it would help anyway
22:28:44 <Hiant> Its a rule of the interpreter, so that execution will end (besides the one other way to end it).
22:29:12 <Hiant> Or two, depending on how you look at it (thats a hint)
22:29:31 <Vorpal> Hiant, hm 0330 and 00330
22:29:34 <oklopol> so Hiant: are you sure the datastring is all the data there is, and there's nothing like an instruction pointer?
22:30:02 <Vorpal> (trying to detect if it is a cellular automaton)
22:30:35 <Vorpal> oklopol, how would you know?
22:30:54 <oklopol> i know because one rule is executed at a time, and it either changes middle, or appends shit
22:31:06 <Hiant> Back. oklopol: There is an order of execution, if thats what you mean. Other then that, there is no other way to store information.
22:32:54 <Hiant> If you want to call it such, there is an 'instruction pointer', but there is only one command that affects it in any way. And it always, every turn, moves only 1 instruction. No jumps, ect.
22:33:30 <Hiant> Make that 2 commands -Hiant remembers that its important to display the puzzle correctly-
22:34:56 <Hiant> That is only 1 step, by the way.
22:34:57 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokoko
22:34:57 <elliott> Hiant: please show instruction pointer in traces
22:35:13 <Hiant> elliott: That might make it too easy...
22:35:28 <oklopol> but we're too lazy to do a hard puzzle
22:35:36 <oklopol> and too stupid too, probably
22:35:44 <elliott> Hiant: the proposal is near-impossible already :)
22:36:01 <Hiant> Is that alright with everyone? I will need some time to hand write it for longer ones, but sure.
22:36:15 <elliott> Hiant: Anyway, you said that it always moves one :)
22:36:21 <elliott> Hiant: write a program to do it :P
22:36:50 <Vorpal> alas I have to leave now
22:36:55 <Vorpal> early morning tomorrow
22:37:22 <elliott> Hiant: I would just put ^ before whatever the IP is on
22:38:06 <elliott> Hiant: does this thing really have 9 rules? :P
22:38:31 <elliott> that's more than brainfuck! :P
22:39:04 <Hiant> If you want, I could give you some hints.
22:39:13 <elliott> Hiant: are there any rules like "instructions 3, 7 and F do nothing"
22:39:16 <elliott> that are actually three in disguise
22:39:32 <Hiant> No. All instructions do 'something'
22:40:03 <elliott> are there any rules about what N instructions do for N>1
22:40:26 <elliott> oklopol: phrase that better :P
22:40:37 <Hiant> Hmmm. Yes. The instructions exist as pairs.
22:40:47 <olsner> 9 rules for 16 opcodes seems low
22:40:56 <oklopol> i am capable of interpreting that output
22:41:16 <elliott> olsner: that's why i asked that
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22:43:54 <Hiant> Okay. Two more hints.
22:44:57 <elliott> Hiant: this would be better if you had a bot that could run it, or something
22:46:51 <Hiant> Yes, but I am not an expert on such things. Hint Two: Each opcode acts on another opcode, the instruction pointer, or ends the program.
22:47:59 <elliott> Hiant: An expert on... programming?
22:49:06 <Hiant> I would consider myself a ... creative amateur at programming.
22:49:24 <elliott> Hiant: Are you able to code an interpreter for the language?
22:50:06 <elliott> Hiant: are you able to use the "print" statement?
22:50:19 <elliott> Hiant: 'cuz IRC is just... print USER foo foo foo foo
22:50:27 <elliott> PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah blah blah
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22:53:10 <Hiant> elliott: eh, I am rather content with the way it is right now. I was just hoping to get people thinking, not kill them with curiosity. Honesty, I might just put the entire thing on esolang.
22:53:31 <elliott> Hiant: My curiosity is killing me ;__;
22:54:33 <Hiant> Oh, and Hint Three: The internal representation of each command is a nibble.
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23:06:57 <elliott> Vorpal: I set up a Minecraft server locally, dear god what have I done.
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23:15:47 <pikhq> elliott: Is it worth doing so?
23:16:20 <pikhq> Minecraft server on localhost
23:16:31 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, absolutely pointless if you're the only user.
23:16:43 <elliott> pikhq: Well. You can give yourself obsidian if you want.
23:19:23 <elliott> pikhq: (So you've got the Minecraft bug too?)
23:22:07 <pikhq> Haven't played it.
23:23:50 <elliott> pikhq: You should! There is no way back...
23:25:46 <elliott> pikhq: Would you like a copy of inst(1)? :P
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23:35:23 <Hiant> Well, I have returned. Would any of you (elliot, Vorpal, etc) like to continue?
23:37:32 <Hiant> With the esolang puzzle?
23:38:23 <elliott> Hiant: Vorpal's embedded himself.
23:39:32 <Hiant> elliott: I haven't the faintest idea what that means.
23:40:14 <Vorpal> back (had to print something)
23:40:18 <oklopol> i'm so much smarter than other people today
23:40:22 <elliott> Hiant: put himself into bed
23:40:26 <Vorpal> Hiant, presumably it means I went to sleep.
23:40:35 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I forgot to print something I needed tomorrow
23:40:42 <Vorpal> elliott, saw highlights when I was doing it
23:41:03 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: I set up a Minecraft server locally, dear god what have I done.
23:41:15 <Vorpal> and correct me if I'm wrong
23:41:23 <Vorpal> you have setup a local minecraft server!
23:41:32 <elliott> Vorpal: I GAVE MYSELF PORTALS
23:41:57 <elliott> Vorpal: everything has an object ID
23:42:03 <elliott> Vorpal: including the inside of portals to nether
23:42:07 <elliott> Vorpal: inexplicably, portals have an inventory icon!
23:42:18 <Hiant> They are actual blocks, afterall.
23:42:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe everything has
23:42:43 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway iirc portals are not yet working in mp
23:42:50 <Vorpal> elliott, try with an inventory editor locally
23:43:04 <Hiant> But they cant exist, or function, for long without an obsidian frame.
23:45:04 <Vorpal> ah done printing. Night now →
23:45:25 <Hiant> Anyways, I have decided to spill the beans about that esolang. Anyone still interested?
23:47:12 <Hiant> The rules are as follows:
23:47:13 <Hiant> There are sixteen commands:
23:47:15 <Hiant> 0/0000---Append the next command to the end of the program.
23:47:16 <Hiant> 1/0001---Invert the second bit of the next command.
23:47:18 <Hiant> 2/0010---Invert the third bit of the next command.
23:47:19 <Hiant> 3/0011---Append previous command to the end of the program.
23:47:21 <Hiant> 4/0100---Invert the last bit of the previous command.
23:47:23 <Hiant> 5/0101---Reverse execution flow.
23:47:25 <Hiant> 6/0110---Delete the previous command.
23:47:26 <Hiant> 7/0111---End Program
23:47:28 <Hiant> Commands starting of the form 1--- can not be altered.
23:47:29 <Hiant> Commands A..F are the 1--- form of 1..7
23:49:03 <elliott> Hiant: I would not have guessed the bitwise stuff :P
23:49:17 <elliott> Hiant: Looks interesting. Have you seen Bitwise Cyclic Tag?
23:49:22 <elliott> Hiant: It is similar, but even more minimal.
23:49:40 <Hiant> elliott: I had mentioned the nibble rule. And yes, I drew inspiration from BCT.
23:50:05 <elliott> Well, yes, you did, but the bitwise stuff :P
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00:05:35 <Hiant> Accursed dc'ing, one day I will conquer you!
00:14:50 * Sgeo vaguely wonders why he's trying to relearn Scala
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00:54:26 <Sgeo> elliott, you're in my state?
01:00:47 <pikhq> No. Nor is he in York.
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01:50:51 <Sgeo> infinity = Succ infinity
01:51:02 <Sgeo> That... I can imagine how it's legal, I guess
01:51:09 <Sgeo> But it's still a bit of a headache
01:51:31 <Sgeo> I guess it's no more unreasonable than infinite lists
01:52:28 <pikhq> let 0 = succ 0 in ...
01:57:15 <Sgeo> Does anyone ever write zero = Zero
01:57:27 <Sgeo> So they have consistency with other assigned constants?
01:57:31 <Sgeo> Such as infinity?
02:00:48 <Sgeo> "That condition is never going to pass, so lyingSearch going to keep taking the Succ branch forever, thus returning infinity"
02:01:01 <Sgeo> How does it do that in a finite amount of time?
02:01:06 <Sgeo> http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2010/11/17/searchable-data-types/
02:29:40 <pikhq> Presumably it runs on an Infinity Machine.
02:34:25 <Ilari> Hmm... Somebody should write DNSSEC system simulator that simulated a domain, its upstream and clients trying to resolve. Then it would let you do various things and warn if those things would break stuff... :-)
02:35:04 <coppro> Sgeo: Because it's lazy
02:35:25 <coppro> and also because the result of lyingSearch is indistinguishable from infinity
02:35:38 <coppro> both are Succ $ Succ $ Succ $ Succ ad nauseam
02:46:41 <Sgeo> Anyone want to attempt to prove/disprove Goldbach?
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02:47:36 * Sgeo meant twin primes, but I'm sure both are not easily determinable via this mechanism
02:51:02 * Sgeo now wants a detailed explanation on why
02:52:42 <coppro> Because this mechanism does not produce infinite calculations
02:52:54 <coppro> it merely exploits a trick to make two values indistinguishable
03:09:20 <pikhq> It's shorter by about a hundred miles to drive from England to Iran than to drive from Washington to Georgia.
03:09:49 <coppro> puts it in perspective, eh?
03:10:39 <pikhq> Yeah — the US is really, truly, positively huge.
03:10:50 <coppro> not as big as Canada, though!
03:11:09 <pikhq> Yeah, but much less of Canada has notable population.
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03:12:16 <pikhq> (I mean, really, how many people actually live in Nunavut, Yukon, or the Northwest Territories?)
03:14:35 <pikhq> Course, on the other hand: how many people actually live in fucking Alaska?
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03:16:16 <Sgeo> I should try Losethos
03:16:36 * Sgeo has a weird definition of "should" sometimes
03:17:28 <Sgeo> "Emulators are
03:17:28 <Sgeo> like running on pathetic hardware, so run it directly or use VMWare. It's not
03:17:28 <Sgeo> very power efficient for laptops, either."
03:17:56 <Sgeo> I do want a nice programming OS to play with
03:19:47 <pikhq> Loſeþos, sadly, has an extra dose of crazy.
03:21:15 <Sgeo> "LoseThos requires a 64-bit capable processor"
03:21:21 <Sgeo> Isn't that what I'm emulating?
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03:48:57 <Sgeo> Dear Windows validation: Thanks for not checking that I'm actually using a version of Windows that allows me to use XP Mode
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06:01:09 * Sgeo downloads House
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06:09:15 <Sgeo> And... I want a manual
06:11:20 * Sgeo is amused by how ungoogle-able House is unless you have some idea of the context
06:11:33 <Sgeo> http://programatica.cs.pdx.edu/House/
06:12:33 <Sgeo> Oh, there is a manual
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07:42:32 <Guest3160> i was typing a response and bam irssi broke
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09:13:55 <evincar> Well, entertain me, gents.
09:18:57 <cheater99> evincar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYV_-QnWBoA&feature=related
09:22:13 <cheater99> you wrote that after reading the description.
09:22:27 <evincar> I did, but it doesn't make it any less true.
09:22:41 <evincar> It is characteristic of the year it came out. So sue me.
09:23:28 <evincar> I've been awake for a while.
09:25:39 <cheater99> i hate you and everything you stand for, evincar
09:26:01 <evincar> cheater99: Liar from the past!
09:27:15 <cheater99> indeed, i had travelled from the past to this specific moment in time. how come you knew??
10:29:19 <evincar> cheater99: I'll be back some day to banter with you at a time when my wit reserves aren't so depleted.
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13:13:38 <cheater99> while(true); do cat wget.log | awk '{if(($0~/\.\./)&&($0~/%/)){ got_line = 1; line=$0; } else { if(got_line == 1) { print line; got_line=0 } print $0;}}' | tail -n 100; sleep 0.01; done;
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13:18:15 <fizzie> Nice Useless Use of Cat there, too.
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13:22:31 <cheater99> fizzie: i replaced it with tail -n10000
13:23:20 <cheater99> fizzie: usually i prefer not to pass the file argument to awk, for clarity
13:23:27 <cheater99> otherwise, this code would become unintelligible.
13:23:34 <cheater99> and we wouldn't want that, now would we.
13:28:03 <fizzie> What's the logic there? If there's a % and a .. on a line, then repeat that before the next line?
13:29:05 <cheater99> concatenate lines that look like this:
13:29:06 <cheater99> 0K .......... .......... .......... .......... .......... 2% 247K 9s
13:29:06 <cheater99> 50K .......... .......... .......... .......... .......... 4% 25.2K 48s
13:29:06 <cheater99> 100K .......... .......... .......... .......... .......... 6% 21.5K 64s
13:29:06 <cheater99> 150K .......... .......... .......... .......... ..
13:30:18 <fizzie> Oh, right, the latter print $0 is inside the else. So keep only the last line like that, right.
13:30:45 <cheater99> "print line" prints the last line like that
13:30:53 <cheater99> "print $0" prints lines that are not like that.
13:38:06 <fizzie> sed -e '/\.\..*%/{h;d};H;s/.*//;x;s/^\n//'
13:38:14 <fizzie> See, that's much more comprehensible than some inscrutable awk expression.
13:38:43 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: it might not completely work.)
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14:03:57 <cheater99> while(true); do s=`du -chs . | grep total`; t=`date +%s`; while(true); do cat wget.log | awk '{if(($0~/\.\./)&&($0~/%/)){ got_line = 1; line=$0; } else { if(got_line == 1) { print line; got_line=0 } print $0;}}' | tail -n 100; echo $s; echo $t; u=`date +%s`; if [ "$u" -gt "$t" ]; then break 1; fi; sleep 0.01; done; done;
14:07:10 <fizzie> I just said "might not completely work"; it did work in my tests.
14:07:39 <cheater99> i prefer my iterative method to your functional method
14:08:07 <fizzie> I don't see what's functional about it; there's even a jump in the middle and all.
14:13:12 <fizzie> "du -hs ." prints out just a single-line total for current-directory, so you don't need to grep there.
14:13:25 <fizzie> And "while true" is better since "while (true)" involves true being unnecessarily started in a subshell.
14:22:44 <cheater99> but i'll keep it this way because it adds the word "total" which is nice
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14:23:23 <cheater99> removing that dot from du would be painful i think, still requires a grep
14:23:46 <Vorpal> hm in minecraft I found out two major cavern systems (major means: huge, and goes all the way between the surface and the bedrock) that I thought were separate (due to being quite far from each other) were actually connected deep down. That ruins my path notation system which marks the way up with 3 torches when there are branches that would make it confusing otherwise.
14:24:18 <Vorpal> oh well I guess I will have to switch to proper signs
14:27:18 <Vorpal> (why 3 torches rather than signs? Lots of reasons: Torches stack in your inventory, You need them anyway while exploring caverns. Plenty of coal down there but not much wood, and signs uses quite a lot of wood compared to torches.)
14:28:54 <fizzie> $ t=`du -hs .`;echo total: ${t%.}
14:29:02 <fizzie> That's not very painful.
14:29:52 <fizzie> ${foo%blah} removes the longest matching trailing instance of "blah". (It can have ?* style wildcards.)
14:30:26 <fizzie> Uh, or actually it was the shortest matching.
14:30:41 <fizzie> It's ${foo%%blah} for the longest case. I always forget which one is which.
14:32:14 <fizzie> There's also corresponding ${foo#blah} and ${foo##blah} forms that remove prefixes, and ${foo/blah/bleh} which replaces the first blah with bleh. (Simplified.)
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15:24:40 <elliott> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_rJ4QOxacA0U/Syxx8VXhIMI/AAAAAAAAAEg/KvSxckiK6rs/s1600-h/Screenshot.png
15:31:28 <elliott> ^ sed script to convert file of lines to fortune db
15:32:56 <fizzie> perl -e 'print join "%\n", <>;' <-- Perl script to do the same, just for giggles.
15:33:35 <fizzie> (Will load the whole file in memory, though.)
15:36:16 <elliott> fizzie: in this case it was a 70 meg file (entire clog #esoteric logs), so my solution is nicer
15:36:22 <elliott> although it's not that big a deal
15:36:38 <elliott> fizzie: also, does that handle when the file ends
15:36:58 <fizzie> Yes, the join only puts %s between the lines.
15:37:33 <fizzie> Instead of dividing by lines, though, you should divide it into short, semantically meaningful snippets. (With a sed oneliner.)
15:37:45 <cheater99> aja, i've fixed the screen glitches.
15:38:05 <elliott> fizzie: Well, the point was to use fortune to power optbot, since it's designed to spew out a given random snippet.
15:38:24 <elliott> fizzie: So I stripped away dates and names, and even names before the first :, but some people use "," which it doesn't catch. Whatever.
15:38:30 <cheater99> sometimes "echo" would take just long enough to cause the listing to jump around
15:38:36 <fizzie> Oh, I thought you were going to use that, well, for fortune.
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15:39:26 <fizzie> Getting something insightful like "<elliott> %" as a random message at login would certainly brighten anyone's day!
15:40:32 <elliott> fizzie: Absolutely. (Hmm, I just ensured that this can't possibly work if you strip off names, by sending "%" as a message.)
15:40:46 <elliott> (Nice job breaking it, hero.
15:41:15 <fizzie> Heh. Did fortune database format have some sort of quoting?
15:42:35 <cheater99> while true; do s=`s=\`du -hs .\` ; echo ${s%.} total`; t=`date +%s`; while true; do (cat wget.log; echo; echo; echo $s; echo $t) | awk '{ out = ""; if(($0~/\.\./)&&($0~/%/)){ got_line = 1; line=$0; } else { if(got_line == 1) { out = line "\n"; got_line=0 } out = out $0; print out}}' | tail -n 100; u=`date +%s`; sleep 0.01; if [ "$u" -gt "$t" ]; then break; fi; done; done;
15:43:23 <cheater99> well... one thing i could do is to add an adaptive low-pass filter to measure the speed, but meh
15:44:47 <elliott> Hmm, is there a fancier elisp for (getenv "HOME")? I know it has /tmp as a verbosely-named directory.
15:48:35 <fizzie> (expand-file-name "~") is fancy.
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16:05:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I hereby approve of ido-mode and flymake.
16:05:58 <elliott> Note this down in your textbook.
16:06:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No; scrawl on your textbook.
16:20:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh dear, now my ~/.emacs is huge; how did that happen?
16:28:38 <elliott> Now I actually want that in-Emacs browser X-D
16:29:29 <elliott> "Unix directories get bigger as you add files, but, oddly, don’t get smaller when you delete those files"
16:34:25 <fizzie> FAT directories do the same, since deleting a file from a FAT filesystem equals replacing the first byte of the file name with 0xe5.
16:34:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rJ4QOxacA0U/Sqs9y8eDJ1I/AAAAAAAAACE/F4cN6N1rTgE/s1600-h/Screenshot.png
16:34:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_rJ4QOxacA0U/Syxx8VXhIMI/AAAAAAAAAEg/KvSxckiK6rs/s1600-h/Screenshot.png
16:36:39 <elliott> Man, I love how crazy svk is.
16:36:43 <elliott> (Distributed subversion. Seriously.)
16:37:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's not really usable yet (last I heard text input doesn't work any way other than using the middle mouse button to paste).
16:37:16 <elliott> Admittedly ezbl would hide the suckiness :P
16:38:40 <elliott> "The Distributed Concurrent Versions System (DCVS) is a distributed revision control system that enables software developers working on locally distributed sites to efficiently collaborate on a software project. DCVS is based on the well known version control system Concurrent Versions System. The code is freely distributable under the GNU and BSD style licenses."
16:43:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The thing in the two screenshots I linked.
16:43:12 <elliott> An Emacs-patched-with-XEmbed-support interface to uzbl.
16:44:46 <elliott> I need a global hotkey that switches to emacs :P
16:46:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Can you link me to that post about colours I linked you a while back? I've lost it.
16:50:11 <Vorpal> <elliott> Man, I love how crazy svk is. <-- iirc I tried it once and conclusion was "rather broken as well"
16:50:18 <Vorpal> was several years ago though
16:50:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, Best Practical use(d) it for everything, so it's not like it's untested.
16:50:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Let's say "fucked up" :P
16:51:06 <Vorpal> elliott, is "Best Practical" a project or something?
16:51:17 <Vorpal> elliott, that is the only way to get that sentence to parse :P
16:51:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Best Practical is a Company with a capital C. They make the RT "request tracker" (bug tracker) system that Perl uses, for instance.
16:51:41 <elliott> Pretty much famous for that :P
16:51:53 <elliott> Well, did; it's abandoned.
16:52:07 <Vorpal> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rJ4QOxacA0U/Sqs9y8eDJ1I/AAAAAAAAACE/F4cN6N1rTgE/s1600-h/Screenshot.png http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_rJ4QOxacA0U/Syxx8VXhIMI/AAAAAAAAAEg/KvSxckiK6rs/s1600-h/Screenshot.png <-- uh.. the first one doesn't look like w3m-el to me. The second one? Huh?
16:52:19 <elliott> Vorpal: I love all these little strange VCS systems -- arch, DCVS (seriously), svk, Monotone, Codeville -- although, well, that's really two categories: the insane (arch, DCVS, svk) and the merely interesting.
16:52:21 <Vorpal> so what is that thingy
16:52:26 <Vorpal> (in those screenshots)
16:52:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Nowhere did I ever claim they are w3m-el. If you read onwards you will see that I already explained; I won't repeat myself.
16:52:45 <elliott> Vorpal: The latter has an "Emacs in a web browser" thing opened.
16:52:51 <elliott> Vorpal: i.e. a web-based editor that shares some superficial keybindings
16:52:52 <Vorpal> elliott, arguably you could say that monotone belongs to the rather insane category too. And not in a good sense.
16:53:11 <elliott> Vorpal: I know you have this really strange opinion of Monotone but it's actually well-engineered from what I've seen.
16:53:24 <elliott> Paranoid with its hashes... sure. You're paranoid too :)
16:53:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, remember that git, mercurial, Bazaar -- are all years younger than Monotone. So the user experience hadn't been standardised as much then.
16:54:00 <elliott> Darcs was the first thing to have a UI similar to current tools, in 2002. (Second ever DVCS).
16:54:03 <elliott> But even it's odd in some ways.
16:54:08 <Vorpal> true. That is a major reason for the wtfness of monotone
16:54:36 <Vorpal> elliott, arguably svn inspired the current ones as well to some degree when it comes to user interface.
16:54:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, yes, but it wasn't distributed.
16:55:18 <elliott> I started writing a DVCS once. Never did finish it. I should!
16:55:21 <elliott> Or maybe just merge it with ais523's.
16:55:40 <elliott> Vorpal: Real irritant for me: you can't make Emacs start up maximised.
16:55:40 <Vorpal> elliott, and I wouldn't say that darcs is very similar to the current major ones. bzr/hg st is something like darcs whatsnew iirc
16:55:46 <elliott> (You can make it fill the screen but not "properly".)
16:55:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, no, but it has close analogues to just about every command.
16:56:12 <elliott> Vorpal: (Although its cherry picking is sorely missed in all other current offerings.)
16:56:40 <Vorpal> I guess only haskell people can wrap their head around making it work. IIRC I heard it was somewhat tricky to implement.
16:57:00 <Vorpal> wrt emacs: are you sure it doesn't expose any way to do it from elisp?
16:57:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, well... it takes a physicist to design darcs. That isn't a saying but it should be.
16:57:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, yes, I'm sure.
16:57:15 <elliott> I've googled extensively, and everyone's just calculating pixels to set it to.
16:57:24 <elliott> But that rounds to the nearest line.
16:57:30 <Vorpal> elliott, but that isn't the same, semantically..
16:57:34 <elliott> Thus leaving an ugly space to the right and bottom of the Emacs window.
16:57:45 <Vorpal> try moving a maximised window vs. one that happens to fill the screen
16:58:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway that ezbl thing needs a patched Emacs :)
16:58:14 <elliott> Vorpal: But it *is* very cool, and it also furthers my True Emacs WM idea.
16:58:18 <Vorpal> elliott, but that ymacs thingy, is it a screenshot filling that screenshot?
16:58:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Which is: Have X windows be actual Emacs buffers.
16:58:32 <elliott> Vorpal: see http://www.ymacs.org/demo/
16:58:35 <elliott> Vorpal: it's just that, loaded in Emacs
16:58:51 <Vorpal> elliott, huh. My first thought was "oh god, someone implemented a VNC client in emacs". It looks like a window inside a window :P
16:59:12 <elliott> Vorpal: well with the xembed patch you could easily do vnc
16:59:16 <elliott> Vorpal: it's just getting input to the window
16:59:22 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway True Emacs WM would be awesome
16:59:25 <Vorpal> elliott, is this patch going official?
16:59:53 <Vorpal> err ymacs is written in js
16:59:59 <Vorpal> does it use lisp at all?
17:00:11 <Vorpal> like implementing an interpreter for lisp
17:00:45 <elliott> Vorpal: it's lame, but the screenshot is just meant to be silly :P
17:00:49 <Vorpal> elliott, hm how flexible is it?
17:00:58 <elliott> Vorpal: "not at all" i would guess
17:01:14 <elliott> Vorpal: but hey, click the maximised thing
17:01:17 <Vorpal> elliott, just make emacs work on jsmips then use that
17:01:19 <elliott> you can drag ymacs around!!
17:01:29 <elliott> Vorpal: emacs would already work on jsmips, it has C
17:01:32 <Vorpal> elliott, can you create more windows?
17:01:37 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't think so :P
17:01:45 <Vorpal> elliott, emacs uses a lot more system calls than vi I think
17:02:10 <Vorpal> elliott, since jsmips is not feature complete afaik, I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't work
17:02:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Very Ibloated Meditor
17:02:28 <elliott> Vorpal: VIM = Very I-bloated M-editor :P
17:02:41 <Vorpal> elliott, the M confused me :P
17:02:48 <elliott> That's right bitches, I'm even a minimalist snob about vi!
17:03:10 <elliott> Oh wow, jsmips' ls is now coloured X-D
17:03:13 <Vorpal> elliott, vi? bah. Too large
17:03:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Don't suggest ed, I actually use ed sometimes.
17:03:32 <Vorpal> elliott, no I suggest dd/sh :P
17:03:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Say, does your fort have any glass windows? If not, why not?
17:03:38 <elliott> Vorpal: there's an editor implemented in dd/sh
17:03:47 <Vorpal> elliott, thats off topic here really :P
17:03:53 <elliott> Vorpal: http://dd-sh.intercal.org.uk/ex1/
17:04:00 <elliott> Vorpal: specifically, it was the first ever dd/sh program in 1998 or something
17:04:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant using dd/sh raw as your editor of course. dd-ex is bloated ;P
17:04:44 <elliott> Vorpal: But dd-ex is supported by famous science fiction author Charlie Stross! http://www.metafilter.com/67661/Words-words-words-And-symbols#1954503
17:04:58 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Stross
17:05:29 <elliott> Author of Singularity Sky and Halting State! Publisher of the ridiculously popular blog post about the Lord who purported to have talked to a group that wanted to buy the British government recently!
17:05:31 <Vorpal> elliott, err, it says: "I use vi. This is because I am a clueless luser, unlike the fellow responsible for THIS."
17:05:43 <elliott> IN THIS WORLD WE HAVE HYPERLINKS IN OUR BROWSERS
17:05:50 <Vorpal> elliott, but he says he use vi not dd-ex :P
17:05:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but he says that dd-ex is superior.
17:06:01 <elliott> Vorpal: By calling himself a clueless luser.
17:06:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Compare "I use Windows because I'm a hopeless gamer, unlike the real men who use OS/2!"
17:06:24 <elliott> (BET YOU DIDN'T EXPECT THAT ENDING)
17:06:48 <elliott> Hmm, Emacs needs an eval-after-both-loaded.
17:06:58 <elliott> I'm putting requires in my .emacs.
17:07:07 <Vorpal> elliott, "real man". There is only one OS/2 user left :P
17:07:23 <elliott> THE EMACS POLICE ARE GONNA KILL ME FOR NOT USING AUTOLOAD
17:08:06 <Vorpal> elliott, autoload is only useful for stuff you only need sometimes afaik
17:08:24 <elliott> (Emacs-Lisp Paredit ElDoc) -- could editing code in the possibly the worst Lisp ever even possibly *be* more comfortable???
17:08:30 <elliott> I have perfected mediocrity!
17:08:37 <Vorpal> elliott, so if you will use that one every time, I fail to see why autoload would be useful
17:08:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, you have appreciated my EmacsWM idea insufficiently.
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17:09:00 <Vorpal> elliott, hasn't it been done already?
17:09:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but -- not Properly.
17:09:18 <elliott> Vorpal: It's just some elisp that uses emacs as the root window and talks to X11.
17:09:30 <elliott> Vorpal: In *mine*, the various windows are actually *Emacs buffers*.
17:09:38 <elliott> C-x b to change a window. Tile at will with C-x 1, 2, 3, etc.
17:10:06 <Vorpal> elliott, uh okay. So it renders everything, rather than letting X11 do it? or?
17:10:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Just position the windows so that they appear inside the buffer area.
17:10:31 <Vorpal> elliott, why not write an X server in emacs? :D
17:10:44 <elliott> Vorpal: (But that has the issue that you can't use Emacs commands inside the buffer.)
17:11:01 <Vorpal> elliott, can you with xembed?
17:11:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Really the main issue here is that Emacs commands clash with just about everything else, so you have to figure out where to send each keypress. :)
17:11:17 <elliott> Vorpal: The problem exists with XEmbed, too, but at least Emacs can *see* the keypresses like that. (I think.)
17:12:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I hate to suggest it, but emacs/client modes. Could use ctrl-alt or such. Though that would clash with stuff that uses that for ungrabbing pointer
17:12:44 <Vorpal> elliott, what about the logo key? Nothing really uses that
17:12:50 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, I hate to suggest it, but emacs/client modes. Could use ctrl-alt or such. Though that would clash with stuff that uses that for ungrabbing pointer
17:13:03 <elliott> You mean bind a specific key prefix to mean "give this to Emacs"?
17:13:05 <Vorpal> elliott, it feels too much like vim with those two modes :P
17:13:20 <elliott> Vorpal: The problem is that you'd want to use C-x b, C-x {1,2,3} all the time.
17:13:27 <Vorpal> elliott, well I thought hit emacs attention key, then give key combo to emacs
17:13:31 <elliott> Vorpal: And, well, "C-x" is a rather common keybinding, if you know what I mean.
17:13:33 <Vorpal> hit it again to go back
17:13:58 <Vorpal> elliott, logo key or menu key should be suitable for this. Though I have menu bound to compose and logo to super
17:14:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Now what we really need is an OS whose interface is an Emacs-on-steroids to begin with, so that everything is already integrated and the interfaces are written to be in this kind of interface from the start...
17:14:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh wait, that's called @.
17:14:49 <elliott> Vorpal: @ is pronounced the same as however the name of ElliottOS will be when it is released is pronounced.
17:16:02 <elliott> Vorpal: It is entirely possible that I refuse to rename [whatever I call the prototype versions of ElliottOS] to a final name because it will never be perfect. :P
17:19:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Still, at least my ideas about the system are coming together...
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17:23:16 <Vorpal> elliott, until you hear about something else. Then a complete overhaul will take place
17:23:36 <elliott> Vorpal: it would be difficult for me to expand my horizons beyond what i already have :)
17:23:41 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe gimme a journal subscription
17:23:52 <Vorpal> elliott, journal? what journal?
17:24:10 <Vorpal> and how could I possibly give you a subscription...
17:24:31 <elliott> Vorpal: i dunno, wherever all this interesting stuff gets published. "computer systems" journals i guess. except only backissues, they probably have crap in them nowadays. also CS for the heck of it, why not, maybe there'll be something relevant in there. also computer graphics, there were a lot of UI papers published in them way back
17:24:49 <elliott> Vorpal: I just meant if one wants to expand my horizons further, one would have to give me a journal subscription to achieve this :P
17:25:14 <Vorpal> elliott, so wait until you start studying at a university. Then use their access for it
17:25:38 <elliott> Vorpal: like i'll have the time /then/
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17:51:44 <fizzie> ACM Digital Library, which equals quite an impressive pile of journals, is just $200/year. ($42/year for "students", but that's >= high school.)
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17:53:42 <oklopol> elliott: if you had the patience to do things in batch mode, i could always dl you stuff.
17:53:56 <oklopol> (but you have to wait for me to be online)
17:54:39 <elliott> oklopol: i could always just google to find specific ones :P
17:54:42 <elliott> oklopol: i just meant like
17:54:50 <oklopol> i don't have access to everything, but most CS stuff at least
17:54:53 <elliott> a huge list of old papers in random obscure vaguely systems-related journals
17:54:59 <elliott> well, and non-obscure, but still
17:55:09 <oklopol> yeah, given a list, i can dl and send
17:55:11 <elliott> <fizzie> ACM Digital Library, which equals quite an impressive pile of journals, is just $200/year. ($42/year for "students", but that's >= high school.)
17:55:21 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, because... I'm 13 or under and therefore not in high school.
17:55:31 <elliott> fizzie: Thanks for your crushing clarification :P
17:55:35 <elliott> oklopol: ok here's the list
17:55:50 <elliott> oklopol: (by a huge list i meant i wanted access to a huge list, not i wanted huge-list-in-papers-out)
17:56:21 <oklopol> that's harder because i do have to dl things manually
17:56:40 <oklopol> i can give you all the stuff i've read for instance, but i doubt that'll interest you much
17:58:09 <oklopol> at least it's mostly cs tho
17:58:21 <elliott> oklopol: i thought you'd given up on cs crap
17:58:47 <oklopol> well. cs includes a lot of interesting math. the math i do is considered cs in most unis
17:59:06 <elliott> oklopol: well i have never paid attention to your ramblings so
17:59:11 <elliott> i have no idea what you've studied :)
17:59:14 <oklopol> my interests are rather more mathematical than most people's in our group tho
17:59:32 <oklopol> our group being the group at uni i mean
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18:01:47 <fizzie> The ACM journals are pretty well browsable even without access -- you get abstracts and all that fluff. So you could just collect interesting things from there and then send that to the oklopol batch download service.
18:02:11 <oklopol> that was actually what i thought might happen, but didn't realize elliott might not even know that
18:02:26 <elliott> i mean i'm just lazy and stuff
18:02:50 <elliott> ideally i wouldn't even have to care about the journals, I'd just have a huge html page with tens/hundreds of thousands of papers from 1960 to today
18:02:53 <oklopol> the laziness is why i figured you might not actually ever read anything if you had to go through oklobatch
18:03:23 <oklopol> maybe i should give you access my university account
18:03:34 <elliott> that would be an excellent idea! i see no possible issues whatsoever.
18:04:07 <oklopol> fizzie: what's your official status at uni
18:04:26 <elliott> he just turns up every day
18:04:29 <elliott> eats some of the food without paying
18:04:34 <elliott> nobody has the heart to kick him out
18:04:43 <elliott> also he usually sleeps there too
18:04:53 <oklopol> i'm applying for tohtorikoulutettava tomorrow, they changed assistentti to that, but apparently i can still apply for it even though i'm just starting my master's
18:05:02 <oklopol> i don't know if these have the same meanings there but i assume so
18:05:03 <elliott> tothorthortoajrothoaohrotirtioartjiorjvwuerto
18:05:18 <oklopol> surely you know what tohtori is
18:06:00 <elliott> c'mon HackEgo, i believe in you
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18:06:19 <elliott> `wl fi tohtorikoulutettava
18:06:20 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
18:06:30 <elliott> oklopol applied to have his hovercraft filled with eels
18:06:43 <olsner> if I had a hovercraft I would also apply!
18:07:48 <fizzie> oklopol: I don't know, really; my payment receipts just read "Researcher", but that's just work-wise.
18:08:03 <fizzie> It used to be "Research assistant" before graduating, though.
18:08:44 <oklopol> assistentti has to do shit like supervise exams
18:09:37 <oklopol> researchers are much cooler
18:09:42 <oklopol> they can just chill around
18:10:01 <elliott> can i pay someone to convert the elisp in http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~psilord/blog/28.html to work with some less ugly scheme
18:11:44 <fizzie> oklopol: Actually with our conversion to Wave University, they also mandated 56 (or so) hours per year of "teaching duties" also to all us non-teaching research personnel.
18:12:17 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523\unfoog.
18:12:23 <oklopol> 56 hours per year isn't a very huge amount tho
18:12:32 <fizzie> 3.5% of the yearly 1600 hours.
18:13:31 <oklopol> so every hour of every day, you'll be teaching for about 136 seconds
18:13:47 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: don't, that just reminds me of Worms, where you can get kicked out of a casual /online game
18:13:53 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: don't, that just reminds me of Worms, where you can get kicked out of a casual online game just because you're not in a clan
18:13:59 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: (or even just because you don't put a clan in your nick)
18:14:07 <ais523\unfoog> well, I can't have different nicks in different channels
18:14:07 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: is this in #nethack or elsewhere? i wanna watch (is it on NAO?)
18:14:14 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: I mean don't as in <ais523\unfoog> we take clan membership very seriously
18:14:22 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: as in, don't say that :)
18:15:01 <ais523\unfoog> they don't have watching facilities themselves for various reasons, but several people are termcasting their games
18:15:35 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: what are the various reasons? also, I was joking too
18:15:47 <elliott> not sure which sounds more retro
18:15:57 <elliott> hmm, clearly they're not termcasting on termcast.org
18:16:12 <ais523\unfoog> they are, although there might not be too many people playing right now, and not everyone termcasts
18:16:37 <ais523\unfoog> MarvinTV is from the tournament, but I think it's recorded rather than live
18:16:47 <ais523\unfoog> apart from that, there don't seem to be many active games; normally there are 3 or 4 more than that
18:17:20 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: have you played yet? i guess not if you just changed your nick
18:17:39 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: indeed, I have, I already have an ascension
18:17:49 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: what, in one day?
18:17:54 <elliott> (note: I have no idea how long the tournament lasts)
18:18:10 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: well that's less impressive then :-P
18:18:13 <elliott> ok, three days is pretty impressive
18:18:23 <ais523\unfoog> it's pretty much exactly median for wins tournament
18:18:35 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: you have to remember that i'm terrible
18:18:45 <elliott> I would be interested in a recording but I don't care greatly.
18:19:43 <oklopol> hmm, my brainreader has arrived, unfortunately i don't know where the post office it's in is
18:20:22 <olsner> I think it's in finland
18:21:17 <elliott> i like how blasé oklopol is about this :)
18:21:32 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: get one = ascension? or recording?
18:21:35 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: also, what kind of a name is "unfoog"?
18:22:07 <ais523\unfoog> but I met the unfoog people last year (when I was running my own clan that did pretty well), and was very impressed by them
18:22:56 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: you are all completely crazy
18:23:57 <ais523\unfoog> TODO: find a naming system for my recordings that doesn't sort by day of the week
18:24:24 <oklopol> elliott: i have nothing between indifferent about X and incredibly hyper about X, and brainreading is not today's thing.
18:24:50 <oklopol> well, actually sleeping removed that, so hopefully today will have multiple things
18:25:05 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: gamenumber-YYYY-MM-DD-HH-MM?
18:25:08 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: where gamenumber is sequential
18:25:13 <elliott> and, say, zero-padded to five digits
18:25:13 <olsner> oklopol: MULTIPLE THINGS? IN ONE DAY?
18:25:28 <ais523\unfoog> but my recording script that I set up in a hurry sets the filename to the literal output of date(1)
18:25:49 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: well, in this case "00341-2010-11-18-18-24.ttyrec" would be if you started playing your 341st right now
18:25:56 <elliott> (you might have played it previously, too)
18:25:58 <elliott> admittedly, it is a bit ugly
18:26:08 <ais523\unfoog> also, it's hard for the script to know which file belongs to which game
18:26:11 <elliott> perhaps 00341_2010-11-18_18-24.ttyrec
18:26:18 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: well, you only ever have one game at a time going on, right?
18:26:26 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: so just have ~/nethack/game be a file with a number in
18:26:40 <elliott> "n=$(cat ~/nethack/game); echo $((n+1) >~/nethack/game"
18:26:49 <oklopol> how does a nethack tournament work
18:27:06 <oklopol> and was nethack the huge rogue, or was that adom
18:27:13 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: unfortunately, that seems not to be the case
18:27:17 <elliott> oklopol: well both are roguelikes
18:27:22 <ais523\unfoog> and one game can be split across multiple recordings
18:27:23 <oklopol> yeah but which one is huge
18:27:29 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: what seems not to be the case?
18:27:44 <elliott> oklopol: nethack doesn't have like hundreds of levels
18:27:57 <oklopol> i thought one of them had about a million times more of everything
18:28:00 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: well, if you don't, you're defying nethack(1)'s wishes :)
18:28:20 <elliott> oklopol: presumably, a nethack tournament works by everyone playing nethack
18:28:25 <elliott> and whoever gets the most points wins or wahtever
18:29:09 <olsner> oh, but it *is* multiplayer since there are several players playing the game
18:29:10 <oklopol> you'd have to wait for everyone to move
18:29:15 <elliott> oklopol: or just break the game completely
18:29:37 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: oh well, i don't mind
18:29:42 <elliott> oklopol: how about using relativity
18:29:48 <elliott> oklopol: like anyone can move at any time
18:29:51 <elliott> oklopol: and it has all the effects
18:30:01 <elliott> oklopol: but the effects don't propagate to anyone else until they take like N turns
18:30:08 <elliott> oklopol: so if you log back on and somebody's spawned 1000 monsters in your room
18:30:11 <elliott> you have some turns to get out of the room
18:30:14 <elliott> before that becomes "your" world
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18:32:39 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: here's an implementation of cat in awk: "1"
18:32:55 <elliott> even supports multiple files to concatenate!
18:45:07 <elliott> "emacs23-common-non-dfsg" -- debian codeword for "Emacs manual"
18:46:21 <Phantom_Hoover> The non-dfsg means it doesn't comply with their freeness guidelines, doesn't it?
18:46:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. In this case it is because the Emacs manual is under the GFDL.
18:46:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And uses "invariant sections".
18:46:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Specifically, you are not allowed to distribute the Emacs manual or any work based on it unless you include the GNU manifesto.
18:47:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: This is, of course, non-Free. (rms doesn't seem to care as he's blinded by ideology.)
18:51:36 <cheater99> that Peping guy is following me around channels
18:54:22 <cheater99> <Peping> cheater99: you're on #esolang too :) I remember you
18:54:23 <cheater99> <reisio> kuku: yum search rename.ul
18:54:23 <cheater99> * Peping (~Peping110@fw3.khfree.net) has left ##linux
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19:18:35 <elliott> Gregor: Did you ever get an offline HTML 5 validator running?
19:19:09 <elliott> Gregor: Darn, I want to integrate it with flymake-mode :P
19:19:29 <Gregor> $ cat bin/quickvalidate
19:19:29 <Gregor> if [ ! "$1" ] ; then exit ; fi
19:19:29 <Gregor> curl -F uploaded_file=@"$1" -F output=soap12 http://validator.w3.org/check 2> /dev/null | grep m:validity
19:19:46 <elliott> Gregor: Why that instead of validator.nu? :P
19:19:54 <elliott> Gregor: (Also, lawl @ soap)
19:20:01 <Gregor> Because validator.nu sucks face.
19:20:21 <Gregor> IIRC, I couldn't find an interface that returned something slightly more greppable than arbitrary HTML :P
19:21:09 <elliott> Gregor: In this case I need line and column numbers so's that flymake can ANGRY COLOUR all the bits I got wrong :P
19:23:09 <elliott> Gregor: Here's some relevant WTF of the day: http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/irresponsible-to-advocate-html5/
19:23:26 <elliott> Gregor: "It's irresponsible to advocate HTML 5 because HTML Tidy breaks pages that use new features of HTML 5."
19:23:50 <elliott> Gregor: haha, wow, grep /HTML5/ http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/
19:23:54 <elliott> Gregor: This guy REALLY hates HTML 5 :P
19:23:59 <elliott> "Will HTML5 make the Web even more invalid?"
19:24:05 <elliott> "Why is the HTML specification a failure?"
19:24:23 <Gregor> "Will HTML5 rape my wife? My kids? My husband? 'cuz it's rapin' everybody out here."
19:24:38 <elliott> "So it's not existing authoring tools that must support HTML5 (which is impossible), it's HTML5 that must support existing authoring tools!"
19:24:53 <elliott> I remember when XHTML 1.0 came out, and every authoring tool worked withi t.
19:25:09 <elliott> 'cuz they were so careful not to introduce backwards-incompatible changes like /> for self-closing elements.
19:26:48 <Gregor> elliott: How's your kitten?
19:27:00 <cheater99> heheh: man wget | grep -A 17 '^\s*\-\-random-wait'
19:27:16 <elliott> Gregor: Progressing well, actually, you NAYSAYER (okay, so you might not actually be a naysayer).
19:27:29 <elliott> Gregor: I'm working on the service manager, and got a dietlibc/pcc toolchain.
19:27:40 <elliott> Gregor: Fully bootstrapped, that is: dietlibc built by pcc, pcc built by pcc and linked with dietlibc.
19:27:56 <elliott> Gregor: And I only had to patch both dietlibc and pcc to do it! :P
19:28:10 <elliott> Although to be fair, the pcc one was a bug. (expecting malloc(0) to point to something)
19:28:11 <Gregor> I legitimately would like to see a (almost-)no-GNU-Linux, but that doesn't mean I'd use it :P
19:28:42 <elliott> Gregor: The "woop, give me X11 and some stuff" installation will probably include GNU Emacs :P
19:28:55 <elliott> Gregor: BUT THAT DOESN'T MATTER because who wants that anyway, just use the base install.
19:28:57 <Gregor> Fine fine, but I just mean in the basic functional core.
19:29:15 <Gregor> Basically coreutils and below should be Free-free.
19:29:15 <elliott> Gregor: Well, I don't know how to avoid GNU binutils.
19:29:29 <elliott> Oh, well coreutils and below doesn't include development.
19:29:42 <elliott> Gregor: BSD-licensed software is Free too, and I'm not avoiding the GPL :P
19:30:02 <elliott> Gregor: Well... lessee: Linux, dietlibc, busybox.
19:30:11 <elliott> Gregor: Assuming busybox links with dietlibc... tada, coreutils and below free of free.
19:30:15 <elliott> Gregor: Hell, busybox even includes dpkg!
19:30:24 <elliott> And HOLY FUCK IT'S SO BLOATED.
19:31:42 * Gregor drums his fingers trying to think of a binutils replacement.
19:31:49 <Gregor> That's a bizarre thing to be irreplaceable.
19:31:58 <elliott> Gregor: I could use Drepper's unreleased elf-utils!!1111 (no)
19:32:30 <elliott> Gregor: I think you have made an error there... either you missed a full stop... or gasm is actually called "gas".
19:32:41 <elliott> Gregor: (Damn you for making me take that long to figure out a sentence with "or gasm" in it X-P)
19:32:46 <Gregor> Yes, it's "gas", but that joke isn't as funny as "gasm" :P
19:32:56 <elliott> Gregor: I say, I say, that's a joke, son.
19:33:19 <elliott> Gregor: Well let's see, the only parts of binutils we REAAAAAAAAALLY need are as, ld and ar.
19:33:27 <elliott> Everything else... like say nm and strip... are just niceties.
19:33:47 <elliott> Gregor: I'm sure there's gotta be a non-GNU ld. (Does gold count? It's part of binutils but was written at Google :P)
19:33:52 <elliott> Gregor: ar isn't difficult.
19:34:02 <elliott> And as there are others, but none that support the retarded AT&T syntax.
19:35:36 <Gregor> Yeah, ar and ld should be easily-replaceable, and AT&T syntax rawx my sawx, and GCC supports Intel syntax as a backend so lawl, and maybe there's an at&t->intel converter that doesn't suck?, and blarf.
19:36:50 <fizzie> AT&T: Advanced Tungeons & Tragons.
19:37:07 <elliott> Gregor: Please tell me that rawx my sawx is sarcastic :P
19:38:39 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot of stuff wants strip
19:38:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Here's my implementation of strip:
19:39:26 <fizzie> "The optimized strip."
19:39:42 <Vorpal> elliott, but don't you love stripping debug symbols to separate symbol files?
19:40:00 <elliott> fizzie: Okay, here's my new strip:
19:40:23 <fizzie> What, not the tiny-elf true?-)
19:40:40 <elliott> Blargh all the multiple major modes things in Emacs are PAIN to use.
19:41:11 <Vorpal> elliott, that way the kernel will know they are the same and won't need to cache the same code twice
19:41:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Dude, do you have any idea how slow following symlinks is???
19:41:22 <elliott> Vorpal: ln /bin/true strip
19:41:27 <Vorpal> elliott, okay hardlink it then
19:41:54 <Vorpal> only works on same partition though
19:41:57 <fizzie> "Why did your system break when I put my /usr on a separate partition?" "Oh, our /usr/bin/strip is a hardlink to /bin."
19:42:19 <Vorpal> and no one sane would use same partition for those
19:42:28 <Vorpal> unless you have a tiny disk
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19:42:42 <erclliott> If I'm going to be an Emacs weenie, I have to use ERC, right?
19:42:51 <Vorpal> erclliott, erc is not the only one
19:42:56 <Vorpal> erclliott, there is rice too
19:43:01 <Vorpal> and possibly some more
19:43:07 <Vorpal> erclliott, rice is pretty popular too
19:43:22 <erclliott> Hmm, is there a [C-x o] that goes in the "other direction"?
19:43:39 <erclliott> I'm currently rocking .emacs, #esoteric and *shell* at once and typing C-x o twice sucks :P
19:43:42 <Vorpal> personally I'm switching away from erc. I'm working on my own irc client currently
19:43:58 <Vorpal> erclliott, reason is that I dislike elisp
19:44:39 <Vorpal> erclliott, currently I'm in design phase. And language will be erlang or haskell. Probably erlang since network stuff seems easier than in haskell
19:44:56 <erclliott> Vorpal: Networking is easy in Haskell... it has sockets.
19:45:07 <erclliott> Vorpal: Anyway, you should just use *my* client instead; it's perfect and all.
19:45:17 <Vorpal> erclliott, true. But compared to the nice abstraction erlang uses I meant
19:45:20 <erclliott> Vorpal: BTW, you can write a non-elisp program and still have an elisp interface pretty easily.
19:45:24 <Vorpal> erclliott, as for UI: not sure yet
19:45:43 <erclliott> Vorpal: Read s-expressions on stdin, print out s-expressions on stdout; don't need to be complicated. Then just write the UI in elisp, which is less painful than writing the whole client like that.
19:45:46 <Vorpal> erclliott, possibly gtk. Possibly tk. Possibly ncurses.
19:46:02 <erclliott> Vorpal: If you use Tk, you'll have a hard time doing it in C.
19:46:06 <erclliott> You'd probably have to write the GUI in Tcl.
19:46:10 <Vorpal> erclliott, why would I use C?
19:46:16 <Vorpal> erclliott, erlang have Tk bindings
19:46:22 <erclliott> Vorpal: Does it have Tile bindings?
19:46:27 <erclliott> Vorpal: Tk still looks like Motif unless you use Tile.
19:46:37 <Vorpal> erclliott, I like the motif look :P
19:46:45 <erclliott> Vorpal: No you don't. I refuse to let you create a program that looks like that.
19:46:48 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:46:50 <Vorpal> erclliott, I don't really like the wxwidgets bindings of erlang. They look complicated.
19:46:52 -!- erclliott has changed nick to elliott.
19:46:55 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
19:46:55 -!- elliott has joined.
19:47:03 -!- elliott has quit (Client Quit).
19:47:13 <fizzie> "ERC Version 5.3 - an IRC client for emacs (http://emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/ERC (mailing list: erc-discuss@gnu.org))" -- wow, that's a noisy CTCP version reply.
19:47:17 -!- elliott has joined.
19:47:27 <elliott> I like how it leaves its vomited buffers everywhere, too.
19:47:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, your is noisier!
19:47:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, it's three different clients. I just closed the ERC one.
19:47:59 <elliott> Has anyone edited HTML with embedded CSS in Emacs?
19:48:02 <fizzie> But compared to those other three, it was the huge.
19:48:06 <Gregor> My VERSION reply is far more noisy.
19:48:08 <elliott> fizzie: *two clients and a bouncer
19:48:21 <elliott> Gregor: Only 2 gigs of RAM for Windows 8?
19:48:25 <elliott> Gregor: That's rather tightly packed.
19:48:33 <fizzie> elliott: If you want to be such a PEDERANT about it.
19:48:34 <Gregor> Bahahaha, "You are being CTCP flooded from Vorpal, ignoring *!*@unaffiliated/anmaster"
19:48:50 <Vorpal> Gregor, you got one ctcp from me
19:48:58 <Gregor> Vorpal: You mean my client fails :P
19:49:07 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah IRC# 2011 has a lot of bugs.
19:49:11 <elliott> Gregor: Try the 2012 prerelease.
19:49:12 <Vorpal> what is that bip client?
19:49:29 * Gregor logs in on his phone to get another version in there :P
19:49:33 <fizzie> Hm, my xchat doesn't put that uname thing in, it seems; it just says "xchat 2.8.8 Ubuntu".
19:49:36 <Vorpal> elliott, how does it compare to znc feature-wise?
19:49:50 <olsner> Gregor: wait a minute, how can you have more than one client?
19:49:52 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't use it; how should I know? It's an irssi addon thing, I think.
19:50:05 <fizzie> No, bip is not an irssi add-on.
19:50:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, indeed. http://bip.milkypond.org/
19:52:00 <fizzie> It's reasonably featureful; though doing the multi-network thing by just listening to one port and then differentiating based on the password (in a "user:pass:netname" format) is a bit on the strange side, and confuses irssi a bit. (It doesn't/didn't like to connect to identical server:port multiple times.)
19:52:05 <Vorpal> elliott, annoying page. Get invalid security cert notification all the time...
19:53:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, that user/pass/netname is common. znc uses user/pass then one user per network. Personally I would make it pass/netname :P
19:54:06 <Vorpal> elliott, actually my idea for irc client is somewhere in between a bouncer+client and a two-part irc client
19:54:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes; I too have had such stupid ideas.
19:54:41 <Gregor> elliott: I'm trying to remember how long ago I added that Microsoft IRC# line to my VERSION :P
19:54:55 <Vorpal> elliott, why do you say that
19:55:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Instant incompatibility with any client other than my own? Of course applying hubris makes these worries disappear :)
19:55:19 <elliott> *sigh* Why does Emacs fail at Luxi Mono so much?
19:55:42 <elliott> Vorpal: I did get a wonderful half-way solution.
19:56:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I modified the OS X client LimeChat so that the messages that come in from my bouncer looked "normal"; I parsed the times off the end and made the client think they came in at that time, and also prettified the "starting/ending playback" messages so they looked like client messages.
19:56:20 <Vorpal> elliott, but then I intend to run both on same computer and just make use of this (if I go with gtk gui or such) to not have to restart the thing if I restart X
19:56:23 <elliott> Vorpal: That was nice; just looked like extra scrollback and copied properly too.
19:56:44 <Vorpal> elliott, those are nice features of this system indeed
19:56:53 <elliott> Vorpal: You could base your client on ii (http://tools.suckless.org/ii/).
19:56:55 <Vorpal> elliott, still somewhat messy to do
19:57:05 <elliott> Vorpal: That way you could just write a GUI on top of some simple filesystem manipulations.
19:57:05 <Vorpal> elliott, uh you know, I don't think I want that style of client :P
19:57:08 <elliott> Vorpal: That way you could just write a GUI on top of some simple filesystem manipulations.
19:57:18 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm just saying that it's easier than implementing the protocol from scratch.
19:57:20 <Vorpal> elliott, hm also from what I remember it doesn't support advanced irc networks very well
19:57:36 <Vorpal> elliott, multi-target msg?
19:57:45 <elliott> Why would you even do that x_x
19:58:17 <Vorpal> elliott, why would anyone ever want multicast...
19:58:31 <elliott> That is not even remotely the same thing as multicast.
19:58:54 <Vorpal> elliott, it is. multicast over irc. Though done through the spanning tree point-to-point connections
19:59:12 <elliott> Vorpal: If you're messaging less than 10 channels, it doesn't really matter, and you can implement it at UI-level.
19:59:18 <elliott> Vorpal: If you're messaging more than 10 channels, stop spamming everyone
19:59:42 <Vorpal> elliott, mostly private /msg. And to inform a group of people about things.
20:00:01 <Vorpal> elliott, also I don't remember it supporting getting server log notices in a nice way
20:00:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Fine, write your own client :P
20:00:17 <Vorpal> so yeah I will implement protocol from scratch. It is a trivial protocol anyway
20:00:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Just expose a filesystem interface the same; suddenly scripting is a lot less painful and can be done from any language.
20:00:25 <elliott> Well, any language that has file access.
20:00:42 <Vorpal> elliott, probably I will do that
20:00:54 <elliott> Vorpal: And if it's based on FUSE I will kill you :P
20:01:01 <Vorpal> elliott, anything wrong with fuse?
20:01:11 <Vorpal> elliott, I would probably just create fifos and open them
20:01:35 <Vorpal> and would probably be annoying in erlang
20:01:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Although surely the channel log should be a regular file, rather than a FIFO.
20:02:12 <Vorpal> while fifos would be like a native C function to wrap mkfifo (unless it has it in the file module already, I don't think it does, but not sure)
20:02:23 <Vorpal> elliott, the bouncer part of the client will handle logging :P
20:02:54 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm pretty sure I will do a two-part client but with a protocol very similar to the standard one
20:03:05 <Vorpal> just some markers for log playback and such
20:03:20 <Vorpal> which will do nothing in other clients
20:03:27 <Vorpal> (due to how I would implement it)
20:04:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Just write a bouncer :P
20:04:54 <elliott> Vorpal: The bouncer part should handle the FS stuff too, duh.
20:05:01 <Vorpal> elliott, well obviously
20:05:12 <elliott> Vorpal: And by "channel log" I just meant "file with the scrollback in" :P
20:05:40 <Vorpal> I have a lot file format already and tools to parse it
20:05:47 <Vorpal> I will thus use the same
20:06:04 <elliott> Vorpal: Good thing it's worse than my client, then.
20:06:30 <Vorpal> elliott, well it will be custom made for me. I doubt you would like it
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20:33:26 <elliott> Are there any zany fvwm users here?
20:34:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Have you *seen* how flexible fvwm is? Have you *seen* how 90s every fvwm configuration ever is? :)
20:36:15 <Vorpal> elliott, no I haven't checked the configs :P
20:36:25 <Vorpal> but yes I remember seeing screenshots looking like 90s
20:36:47 <ais523> hi elliott; switched to wired as wireless wasn't working
20:36:53 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523\unfoog.
20:37:03 -!- elliott has changed nick to elliott\funoog.
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20:38:35 <elliott\funoog> Vorpal: http://ompldr.org/vNjgwbA, through the door on the right: http://ompldr.org/vNjgwbw
20:38:41 <elliott\funoog> specifically the last one is the impressive one, but it makes no sense without the former
20:39:16 <Vorpal> elliott\funoog, I have long stairs like that too?
20:39:37 <Vorpal> elliott\funoog, just had no clue you would be impressed by them
20:40:10 <Vorpal> elliott\funoog, well I have straight stairs from bedrock to sea level in one place
20:40:38 <Vorpal> elliott\funoog, or actually: just below sea level. then some ladders to keep the water out :D
20:40:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's at 60 blocks down right now; getting to the bedrock will be trivial
20:40:43 <elliott\funoog> ais523\unfoog: what use does anyone have for real life?
20:40:56 <elliott\funoog> Vorpal: do one from the absolute top of the map to bedrock
20:40:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it anything interesting on your way down?
20:41:14 <Vorpal> elliott\funoog, too much work. Better to do a boatlevator then :P
20:41:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, just mud, rock and the occasional coal and iron ore seam.
20:41:22 <Vorpal> elliott\funoog, I generally do that for vertical transport nowdays
20:41:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, nice. Lucky you didn't hit a lava lake then
20:42:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, expand horizontally outwards around, say, 17-20 tiles up if you want to run a chance/risk of hitting caverns
20:42:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Although the Law Of Dramatic Irony dictates that the last step will hit a lava lake.
20:42:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, lava maybe. Lava lake would be at 8-16 iirc
20:42:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Fortunately, this shelter is near the spawn point, and fairly easy to spot.
20:43:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and I hope you stored away most of your inventory in those chests
20:43:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, for extra self sufficiency farm wheat and trees indoors
20:43:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, early game then
20:44:21 <fizzie> I started my first single-player staircase mine with a staircase 8 blocks wide, and 5 blocks high: that's 40 blocks of stone to remove for each step down.
20:44:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, after a while you will have a room full of double chests. With signs like "dirt" "cobblestone" and so on
20:44:43 <fizzie> It only goes down a 20 blocks or so, though, since I hit a cavern structure at that point.
20:44:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, I generally do 2 wide and 3 high
20:45:08 <Vorpal> depends on if I plan to add stairs
20:45:38 <fizzie> It feels like I keep banging my head to the roof if it's less than 5 and going down.
20:45:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm that must have taken quite a bit of rock. for those stairs
20:46:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed. And it actually slows you down. I timed
20:46:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, because you do hit the remote side
20:46:32 <fizzie> Stairs are cheap, it's 6 blocks of stone to four stair-blocks.
20:46:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I maxed the stair count, then went backwards lining the shaft.
20:46:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, steps are 3->3 right?
20:47:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, so technically they are cheaper
20:47:47 <fizzie> The to-bedrock staircase I have in the multiplayer game is 3 wide and 6 high; that's 18 blocks per single level of descent.
20:48:37 <elliott\funoog> What kind of pickaxes do you guys have that that isn't hideously tedious? :P
20:49:08 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree10.png
20:49:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I've used two irons, but I am innately stingy with resources.
20:49:46 <fizzie> I use stone too, except that in multiplayer I use diamond, since they don't have durability tracking.
20:50:16 <fizzie> I only take up the iron pick when there's gold/diamonds/redstone to pick up.
20:50:34 <elliott\funoog> Are they significantly less tedious to use than the wood ones?
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20:51:21 <fizzie> Well, you need at least stone to get iron or anything out, don't you?
20:52:06 <fizzie> And, well, it's not like there's actually any reason not to use stone, it's not like you're going to run out of it.
20:52:13 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree11.png
20:52:18 <fizzie> There's a bit of stone there.
20:52:20 <elliott\funoog> fizzie: Note that I've never actually come into possession of stone as far as I know.
20:52:25 <Vorpal> <elliott\funoog> What kind of pickaxes do you guys have that that isn't hideously tedious? :P <-- stone, iron and diamond are the ones I use
20:52:29 -!- elliott\funoog has changed nick to elliott.
20:52:30 <Vorpal> depends on what I'm cutting through
20:52:33 <fizzie> Cobblestone makes pickaxen.
20:52:51 <elliott> fizzie: I never see much cobblestone.
20:53:05 <fizzie> Stone turns into cobblestone when you axe it.
20:53:06 <Vorpal> elliott, you get cobblestone from picking stone
20:53:13 <elliott> "There is a L shape on the Cobblestone's default skin that always point at the north as illustrated there. It's very useful to find your way especially in The Nether, where Compasses don't work."
20:53:27 <fizzie> Even with the wooden one.
20:53:36 <fizzie> (Otherwise it'd be pretty hard to get started.)
20:53:44 <Vorpal> you can get stone back by smelting cobblestone, not that that makes much sense
20:53:59 <fizzie> I've smelted quite a lot of stone, since I built that house out of it.
20:54:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, elliott: http://sprunge.us/dQfW
20:54:28 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> [...] I'm just widening the shaft to be 4x2 or so.
20:54:41 <HackEgo> 261|<Phantom_Hoover> [...] I'm just widening the shaft to be 4x2 or so.
20:54:59 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: that isn't particularly funny or interesting
20:55:11 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: therefore, it fits perfectly in with the rest of HackEgo's quote database
20:55:24 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: you were claiming to me a while ago that it was mostly funny/interesting
20:55:31 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: I was lying through my teeth
20:56:02 <HackEgo> 126|<Warrigal> Ah, vulva. <Warrigal> What is that, anyway?
20:56:13 <HackEgo> 113|<xan> if you watch jaws backwards it's a movie about a giant shark that throws up so many people they have to open a beach
20:56:16 <HackEgo> 72|<ehird> ignore me, i'm full of bullshit
20:56:19 <HackEgo> 76|<Sgeo_> I had an idea for an AskReddit, but I forgot
20:56:20 <HackEgo> 207|<fungot> pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?"
20:56:32 <elliott> [[it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?]]
20:56:32 <HackEgo> 224|<fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question". <fizzie> "Nope... No...This problem can't be done AT ALL. This one--maybe, but only with two yaks and a sherpa. ..."
20:56:34 <elliott> I hope that isn't literal.
20:56:42 <HackEgo> 77|<ehird> no Deewiant <Deewiant> No?! <Deewiant> I've been living a lie <ehird> yep. <Deewiant> Excuse me while I jump out of the window ->
20:56:48 <HackEgo> 91|<oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge
20:56:54 <HackEgo> 75|* ehird disables javascript
20:57:04 <HackEgo> 96|<fax> im the worst person in the world
20:57:18 <HackEgo> 185|<AnMaster> oerjan, can you ever get any number higher than 3 at the start of "ordinary" [look-and-say sequences]? <ais523> it's not clear from the RFCs
20:57:20 <fizzie> elliott: I don't even know which style it's from.
20:57:25 <HackEgo> 225|<Vorpal> alise, it works fine for irc but interactive stuff? no.
20:57:30 <HackEgo> 112|<Dylan> Warrigal is the Harlem Globe Frotter
20:57:31 <elliott> fizzie: Easy way to find out!!*
20:57:39 <HackEgo> 138|<ais523> so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.?
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20:57:47 <HackEgo> 83|<Madelon> yay fire! * Madelon combusts spontaneously.
20:57:49 <HackEgo> 51|* Dylan devides by Zorro
20:57:50 <HackEgo> 114|<Eeyore> I used to have salt licks for my horses. They would make cool abstract sculptures with them.
20:57:51 <HackEgo> 125|Note that quote number 124 is not actually true.
20:57:52 <fizzie> Well, I could grep the token files for rare words.
20:57:53 <oklopol> elliott: please stop spamming
20:57:57 <HackEgo> 8|<Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them.
20:58:06 <elliott> oklopol: please stop spamming
20:58:06 <HackEgo> 49|<ehird> is there a problem with it being carbonized :D <augur> yes: carbonized coffee bean is known more commonly as "charcoal"
20:58:11 <HackEgo> 188|<fungot> CakeProphet: reading herbert might be enlightening in one hand he held a long worm can be greased. twice i got it nearly there, and the protector of cattle. mars is also mentioned as a rainbow. as a seated baboon sometimes with its head.
20:58:11 <HackEgo> 123|[Warrigal] `addquote <Dylan> hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows <Lawlabee> 'cuz it's pretty awesome. [Lawlabee] Warrigal: :(
20:58:14 <HackEgo> 121|<fedoragirl> My mascot is a tree of broccoli.
20:58:17 <fizzie> Apparently abomination exists in {discworld,europarl,irc,jargon,lovecraft,speeches,ss,youtube}, though.
20:58:19 <HackEgo> 174|<fungot> [...] i'm a law student so i am loving my bread machine
20:58:26 <elliott> Law students are great fans of bread machines.
20:58:47 <oklopol> that's not what i was thinking
20:58:48 <Vorpal> you *can* use /msg to it
20:58:56 <oklopol> yeah but then other's can't see it
20:59:10 <oklopol> i've have to paste everything here anyway
20:59:19 <fizzie> The word "wonse" is in ct and discworld, and it doesn't sound like literal either, definitely not ct.
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21:36:42 <olsner> ah, another filler episode
21:36:53 -!- aloril has joined.
21:37:10 <olsner> same shit as last time :) naruto shippuuden
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21:38:14 <elliott> my .emacs is exactly 100 lines
21:38:14 <Vorpal> elliott, http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/world1.png http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/minecraft/world2.png
21:38:31 <elliott> Vorpal: which one is your main world?
21:38:48 <Vorpal> elliott, well, both. I have the largest boatlevator in world2
21:39:02 <Vorpal> elliott, world2 I play on easy rather than peaceful
21:39:20 <Vorpal> elliott, also it is all post-halloween mapgen
21:39:25 <elliott> Vorpal: meanwhile, in my exasperation at being unable to find ANY DAMN COAL AT ALL, I dug a 2x2 square into a cave and then repeated.
21:39:27 <Vorpal> which makes for a less jarring map
21:39:33 <elliott> I then boarded up the end I came in when it started getting dark.
21:39:40 <elliott> I am not sure if it is night or day. :P
21:39:51 <fizzie> The torch-based route-marking makes for nice maps, that's for sure.
21:40:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, and easy to find your paths too
21:40:37 <fizzie> I'd like the reappearing-block bug fixed for multiplayer, could get back to that at some point then.
21:40:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, the extremely straight lines of torches in map 1 is for surveying
21:41:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, to be specific surveying path for minecart transit system
21:41:19 <Vorpal> as in, what does it do
21:41:40 <fizzie> Multiplayer game blocks tend to reappear after mining, often takes at least two attempts to finally actually get rid of a block.
21:41:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you get dropped stuff every time?
21:42:09 <elliott> Vorpal: how deep is this tunnel???
21:42:20 <Vorpal> elliott, which one? for mine carts?
21:42:41 <Vorpal> elliott, how would I know how deep stuff is in *your* game?
21:42:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: I couldn't really tell; probably not.
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21:43:46 <elliott> aha, this looks like the end
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21:44:31 <Vorpal> elliott, why not go back the way you came?
21:44:44 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't get why that's no issue
21:44:48 <elliott> i've dug all the way through
21:45:03 <Vorpal> elliott, also get a lock. (1 redstone, 4 gold ingots)
21:45:29 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, SO not at that stage yet :P
21:45:31 <Vorpal> or use a timer, set it to 10 minutes when you see the sun set
21:45:54 <elliott> Remember, this was driven by there being NO COAL AT ALL outside.
21:45:59 <elliott> I got exactly one piece of coal before entering.
21:46:06 <elliott> I now have 13, which is fewer than I'd like.
21:46:42 <Vorpal> I have... uh... which chest? :D
21:46:44 <elliott> I appear to have misplaced the entrance to my holyfuck tunnel :P
21:46:53 <fizzie> 13 coal already makes for 52 torches; that's not too shabby.
21:47:10 <Vorpal> some 500+ in various chests
21:47:25 <elliott> Only I can dig all night and then forget where the tunnel is :P
21:47:43 <fizzie> The single-player box here has 219 pieces of coal too, but it's not like I could send that anywhere.
21:47:44 <Vorpal> elliott, that is why you use torches to mark your path
21:48:00 <elliott> Vorpal: I've moved maybe 10 blocks away.
21:48:04 <fizzie> Notch has tweeted that multiplayer will have portals that send people to different ip:ports.
21:48:26 <elliott> Can any of those mapping things show me torches underground?
21:48:38 <Vorpal> 3 in a straight line on a wall next to an opening = to exit (used in caverns when you have ambiguous branches or a quite well hidden passage)
21:49:48 <Vorpal> 3 in a straight line on the floor across your path "dead end/exit is VERY well hidden to one of the sides around here, look for 3 torches on some wall"
21:50:19 <fizzie> 5 in a pentagram: about to summon Cthulhu real soon.
21:50:31 <Vorpal> this breaks down sometimes. Mostly when you find out that cavern 1, cavern 2 are connected
21:50:57 <Vorpal> but the torch system saves wood
21:51:04 <Vorpal> and also it lights up your path
21:51:12 <Vorpal> plus it stacks in inventory
21:51:22 <fizzie> Won't (light up permanently) for long, though.
21:51:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, old torches will be converted
21:51:59 <fizzie> Probably a good idea to build 512 or so torches before updating. :p
21:52:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, and if the lightstone speculations are accurate: I have tons of it by now
21:52:30 <fizzie> Well, it's pretty easy to find in Nether.
21:52:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, also what about the jack-o-lantern
21:52:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, a bit hard to reach though.
21:52:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw I have a nether panorama mostly done
21:53:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, you can't see all the remote walls on far in that cavern
21:53:22 <fizzie> As you probably saw from the screenshot file names, I call that underground tree "subtree"; can't help smiling whenever I think of it. I put a "<-- TO THE SUBTREE" sign at the bottom of that from-max-altitude-to-bedrock shaft, since there's multiple exits at the bottom.
21:53:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, you did that just now or?
21:54:24 <fizzie> Well, few hours ago while looking at something else, but still.
21:54:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, also that server you play on. Private you said. What group is invited there?
21:54:43 <elliott> Woo! I've dug myself my first real home.
21:55:12 <fizzie> You'd have to ask ineiros about that, it's his box. Not that I think he follows this channel especially well.
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21:55:24 <fizzie> There's not really anyone there ever, so it's not very "multiplayer" like that.
21:55:33 <Vorpal> elliott, I think a submarine site would be a highly attractive location for fort allotments
21:55:50 <Vorpal> if on the floor of the ocean, monsters wouldn't be much of an issue
21:55:59 <Vorpal> unless notch add marine enemies
21:56:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Why put doors on the outside again?
21:56:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, I just wondered who were the target group
21:56:51 <elliott> fizzie: Vorpal wants in on your subtree fun.
21:56:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I'll let fizzie explain it
21:57:07 <fizzie> I assume it's in Finland, yes.
21:57:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I would like to have a look at that map I have to admit. It looked quite cool.
21:57:32 <Vorpal> elliott, not *on* the outside, *from* the outside :P
21:57:46 <fizzie> If you stomp the door in from the outside, it will get placed to the outer edge, and then you can stand safely behind it and hit enemies.
21:58:03 <ineiros> Indeed, I don't follow this channel very actively.
21:58:06 <fizzie> As opposed to the other way around; having enemies hit you while you stand next to your door.
21:58:08 <Vorpal> elliott, just don't hit your door too much
21:58:10 <elliott> Well, it's too late now -- it's dark outside already.
21:58:19 <elliott> So I'll wait 'till morning to fix it.
21:58:29 <Vorpal> elliott, why did you place it the wrong way? You knew the proper way
21:58:38 <elliott> Vorpal: I forgot, and it was already getting dark at the time.
21:58:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, I have TWO doors.
21:58:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Wanna know why? Makeshift window.
21:58:50 <elliott> Don't have the resources to do glass yet.
21:59:20 <elliott> It's unlikely I'll ever get a window, since I'm *nowhere* near a beach.
21:59:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: In the single player game, I have my main structure in the middle of the ocean; started with a 5x5 (well, 7x7 if you count the walls) rectangle, emptied out one level of water with a bucket, built one more level of walls, and so on to the bottom of the sea.
21:59:38 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway presumably you will expand your empire?
21:59:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Sure, but I'm not ready for that quite yet.
21:59:50 <Vorpal> elliott, you seem to start new games all the time
21:59:56 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm going to mine first, using the patented Phantom_Hoover "Door from house to mining shaft" method.
22:00:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Hey, this game I'm actually trying! :p
22:00:10 <fizzie> (Felt pretty silly, emptying the sea with a bucket.)
22:00:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, sounds like a chore. I done that for some deep clay deposits...
22:00:37 <Vorpal> (when diving became impractical)
22:00:43 <Vorpal> and yeah quite a chore
22:00:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, especially with the currents
22:01:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, I would probably start by building from below. Placing reeds or ladders to get air pockets
22:01:30 <fizzie> Yeah, they're a bit annoying. But at least you can "place" a bucketful of water into any "spring" block without having any sort of effect, so it's easy to empty up the bucket.
22:02:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, you can't dump into the ocean? You need to be within "range" of the ground iirc
22:02:09 <Vorpal> or some other block behind the water
22:02:30 <fizzie> Yes, but I had the walls there. It was always just the last water block on each level that I had to carry up.
22:02:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, still having somewhere to stand tends to be a problem
22:03:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, got a screenshot of that structure? If it isn't glass I will be sad ;P
22:03:33 <Vorpal> okay. Still screenshot
22:03:37 <Vorpal> but glass would have been cooler
22:03:39 <fizzie> Oh, and having the tower there in the middle meant that when I removed the single-block cobblestone "pier" I had to get something to start building from -- something like 40 blocks long -- it didn't "fill up" properly, and then I had to fill it bucket by bucket from a 2x2 pond.
22:04:01 <fizzie> I can cover it with glass and then remove the cobblestone at some point. But you're right.
22:04:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, it doesn't fill up if there is water blocks below it indeed. That is to avoid O(n) griefing with O(n²) cleanup
22:05:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, presumably enemies are no issue out there in the ocean?
22:05:59 <elliott> I wish people would stop using the word "griefing".
22:06:13 <Vorpal> elliott, well I just used the term they use on the wiki and so on
22:06:13 <elliott> (1) We have a word for that, it's called "trolling". (2) If it's actually causing you grief, you have issues.
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22:06:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, I know, I just find it irritating.
22:06:23 <Vorpal> elliott, true it is trolling
22:06:38 <Vorpal> elliott, but trolling that messes up your game world
22:06:50 <Vorpal> sure backups, but you can't have minute-by-minute backups
22:07:17 <elliott> Vorpal: If you're on a multiplayer server, the whole point is that it's kinda free-for-all IMO.
22:07:48 <Vorpal> elliott, some servers might have "do not destroy each other stuff intentionally just to troll" rules or such.
22:07:58 <Vorpal> maybe you don't see the point of that though
22:08:45 <Vorpal> elliott, and then trolls/vandals who join can cause a lot of annoyance
22:08:48 <elliott> Vorpal: I like the EVE Online solution for this; "if you don't want shit to happen, build better defences; everything goes". :p
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22:09:04 <Vorpal> elliott, well that is easy to get past in minecraft :P
22:09:04 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: you need a pretty well-designed gameworld for that to work properly
22:09:16 <Vorpal> elliott, it is closer to vandalism than trolling in minecraft
22:09:28 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: have you *seen* EVE Online?
22:09:55 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: It's completely real-world, it just happens to take Star Trek as canon. :)
22:10:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: Okay, the starting point of the shaft: http://zem.fi/~fis/thing1.png -- peek inside: http://zem.fi/~fis/thing2.png -- you can sort-of see it in this underwater shot: http://zem.fi/~fis/thing3.png -- and here's the overall structure: http://zem.fi/~fis/thing4.png
22:10:16 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: (Other things it takes as canon: "Everyone has infinite CPU, GPU and memory")
22:10:17 <ais523\unfoog> I should go home, anyway, I procrastinated far too long today and ended up working into the night
22:10:28 <elliott> fizzie: Stop taunting me with your glass and proximity to the beach.
22:10:36 <elliott> fizzie: I'm in the middle of things with no sand and thus no glass.
22:10:46 <fizzie> Should make the underwater tube out of glass though, that's true.
22:10:59 <elliott> Is there any other way to get glass?
22:11:11 <elliott> fizzie: Wait, how come your shaft goes upwards?
22:11:28 * ais523\unfoog logs off before any further memory lapses befall him
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22:11:58 <elliott> fizzie: See http://zem.fi/~fis/thing4.png.
22:11:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it go to max alt?
22:12:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I see a portal inside. Nice
22:12:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not quite yet.
22:12:44 <oklopol> "<elliott> fizzie: Wait, how come your shaft goes upwards?" <<< is this an erection joke
22:12:46 <fizzie> elliott: It's meant to be an observatory tower.
22:13:05 <elliott> oklopol: Well, I didn't explicitly avoid one; blame miners, not me. :P
22:13:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it go above the clouds?
22:13:06 <oklopol> "<fizzie> elliott: It's meant to be an observatory tower." <<< how about this then?
22:13:33 <Vorpal> elliott, that was intentional right?
22:13:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, how far down does it go? to the bedrock?
22:15:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, it joins my general tunnel system, it doesn't go directly down more than maybe ten blocks under the seafloor.
22:15:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, your tunnel system use minecarts I hope?
22:15:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, any issues with creepers btw?
22:15:43 <fizzie> Well, I've built some amount of tracks, but it's not completely covered. And it's still peaceful. :p
22:17:06 <fizzie> Cows keep going for a swim near there, for some reason: http://zem.fi/~fis/thing5.png -- and the top of the tower is inside the cloud level: http://zem.fi/~fis/thing6.png -- and there's a two blocks wide step-staircase inside, fortunately steps are cheap: http://zem.fi/~fis/thing7.png
22:17:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think peaceful is more fun than non-peaceful btw
22:17:41 <Vorpal> having played one game of each
22:17:56 <fizzie> Well, many people disagree. I guess I'm just weird this way.
22:17:59 <Vorpal> you can focus on building awesome stuff
22:18:23 <fizzie> Probably going to have to play un-peaceful if our benevolent server admin goes that way when server-side health gets implemented. :p
22:18:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, idea before an accident happens: water pool at the bottom of that shaft
22:19:06 <elliott> that laugh was definitely evil
22:19:17 <Vorpal> ineiros, who is your server open to btw?
22:20:01 <fizzie> I've probably screenshotted all the interesting bits already. :p
22:20:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm. Not quite the same as walking around it
22:20:25 <ineiros> Vorpal: I think I could reveal the address for more people.
22:20:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, besides your screenshots are small. And weird aspect ratio
22:20:55 <Vorpal> ineiros, well if Finnish is the language spoken there I wouldn't be of much use (Since I'm from Sweden)
22:21:03 <fizzie> No-one speaks there. :p
22:21:15 <ineiros> Exactly. And it's empty most of the time anyway.
22:21:19 <fizzie> I think it's been approximately thrice that I've happened to be there at the same time as ineiros.
22:21:28 <fizzie> I haven't ever seen the guy who supposedly built the wooden house.
22:21:58 <oklopol> maybe the house was generated there
22:22:11 <Vorpal> also I wonder if it would be as slow as playing over the gbit lan here :P
22:22:19 <fizzie> And my screenshots are weird-shaped because I have that tiling window manager and for some reason tend to keep it only half-screen-sized.
22:23:13 <ineiros> fizzie: It's a friend of mine from the ass of Finland (Turku).
22:23:44 <Vorpal> ineiros, oh and if you see a random string joining starting with BC<some stuff> then it is me. My first choice wasn't available as user name so I used my random string script
22:24:17 <fizzie> If I use a regular-sized aspect ratio, the UI elements get scaled up to hugeness, whereas with the vertical-sorty thing they stay nice and small and don't block the view so much.
22:24:36 * Sgeo dedicates this channel to the memory of a time when the channel wasn't dedicated to the memory of a time when the ...
22:24:58 <fizzie> (I guess it scales based on width or something? Anyway, the scaling seems really weird; sometimes it doesn't want to fill the whole window. Might be an OpenJDK thing, of course.)
22:25:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, huh, what is that thing next to the spawn point. It looks man made. And I didn't know you could place coal ore?
22:25:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think it's a lava-trap by ineiros.
22:26:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: (It's filled with crunchy caramel, I mean, lava, that will come open if you break it. If it's the thing I remember.)
22:26:44 <fizzie> And he probably placed coal ore by /give'ing it to himself with the server-admin cheatery.
22:26:46 <ineiros> fizzie: Damn, you spoiled the surprise. :P
22:26:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, err, were does one go from there to see the great sights?
22:26:59 <fizzie> I put some torches to mark the way.
22:27:03 <fizzie> They should start pretty nearby.
22:27:16 <fizzie> Unless someone's taken them out, of course.
22:27:47 <ineiros> Vorpal: I can teleport you directly to fizzie, if you wish.
22:27:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it go over the sand?
22:27:56 <Vorpal> ineiros, nah this is more fun
22:28:53 <ineiros> Vorpal: In that case, I could teleport you to my location, which is on the bottom of a large pit quite quite far from the spawn point. :)
22:31:24 <fizzie> ineiros: Come to think of it, I've never even seen your pit. (No, that's not a teleportation request.)
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22:37:57 <Sgeo> Is it possible to use the ST monad to cheat and give a functional interface to a non-functional data structure?
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22:43:04 * Sgeo decides to get back to learning Scala
22:43:42 <elliott> Sgeo: I'm so sorry that Haskell doesn't let you break the semantics of the language.
22:46:03 <Sgeo> Or maybe I should learn Clojure
22:46:15 <Sgeo> Hey, at least I'd be learning a Lisp, albeit a despised one
22:46:29 <elliott> It's not really much of a Lisp at all.
22:46:54 * Sgeo would also love to know what PH was going on about wrt Clojure designers not realizing that O(log_32 n) = O(ln n)
22:47:36 <elliott> They said that O(log_32 n) != O(log n) "when the algorithm is run on a computer".
22:47:49 <elliott> (Not direct since I'm not gonna look at the logs.)
22:48:03 <Sgeo> "when the algorithm is run on a computer" is just... that just makes it more facepalmy
22:48:07 <elliott> Not all of them were designers of the language.
22:48:11 <elliott> I imagine that statement was not by one of them.
22:48:18 <elliott> Sgeo: But someone who was a developer did agree.
22:48:28 <elliott> Developer of Clojure, that is.
22:49:56 <Sgeo> I still don't quite ... how does one represent one step of an algorithm taking 1ms vs taking 100 years... obviously not in O notation, but...
22:50:44 <elliott> You say "this one takes ~1ms * items in the array" and the other one 100 years.
22:51:12 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that they may not have realized that log_b x = log_c x / log_c b
22:51:21 <Sgeo> (Unless I got that backwards myself)
22:52:09 <Sgeo> Which would make it more of a logarithm comprehension fail than a big O notation comprehension fail
22:53:58 <elliott> Sgeo: Anyway, they agreed that it was true "in theory", just not "in practice".
22:55:05 <elliott> Sgeo: One of them said that in a "perfect mathematical universe" they would be equal.
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22:55:21 <Sgeo> Maybe they just didn't know how to state their intuition that big-O notation doesn't give the whole story
22:57:17 <Sgeo> Maybe they're assuming that by writing down O(log_32 n) instead of O(log n), the difference, while not stricly speaking existing, helps tell a story outside of O notation
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22:59:47 <elliott> Sgeo: Maybe they're fucking retarded.
23:02:12 -!- Hiant has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]).
23:02:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I haven't figured out this mine shaft thing.
23:04:03 <oklopol> hey this conversation is actually happening
23:04:10 <oklopol> i've been reading a log and feeling sad because i can't comment
23:04:15 <oklopol> but now i can so here goeas
23:04:35 <oklopol> 'O(log_32 n) != O(log n) "when the algorithm is run on a computer".' :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:04:45 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:04:50 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:04:53 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:04:56 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:04:57 <elliott> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:05:00 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:05:10 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:05:36 <Sgeo> I'm still convinced that they mean that by writing it like that they mean to describe something outside of O notation
23:05:48 <elliott> Sgeo: Because you love defending idiots.
23:05:57 <oklopol> well, yes, surely they have no idea what O means
23:06:32 <elliott> Vorpal: wait never mind the crisis is over i forgot
23:06:38 <elliott> Vorpal: but uh i still don't understand mind shafts
23:06:40 <Vorpal> elliott, also I have an amusing screenshot of fizzie commenting on his custom texture :P
23:06:44 <Vorpal> elliott, will upload it in a bit
23:07:02 <elliott> Vorpal: can you explain the way of the shaft :|
23:07:07 <elliott> i have started digging stairs downwards
23:07:19 <fizzie> (To be honest, I don't quite look that rectangular in real life.)
23:07:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, aww, don't spoil it
23:07:49 <ineiros> 2010-11-19 00:32:18 [INFO] <fizzief> Oh, yes, it does. The chat is pretty rudimentary.
23:07:52 <ineiros> 2010-11-19 00:32:23 [INFO] <fizzief> Right, I made it look a bit more like myself.
23:07:55 <ineiros> 2010-11-19 00:32:35 [INFO] <fizzief> In the "blond hair, mostly black-ish clothing" sense.
23:08:06 <fizzie> ineiros: You're quite a spoiler.
23:08:37 <Sgeo> Is there a notation where constants do make a differ... then you'd probably have to get all fiddly with units
23:08:48 <elliott> no my internal model of fizzie doesn't have blond hair
23:08:49 <Vorpal> okay now I have some coal. Now to get up to the top
23:09:01 <Vorpal> this is tricky to climb to say the least
23:09:03 <elliott> ineiros: can I join the party and kill Vorpal^W^W^W
23:09:15 <elliott> mere MILES away from you guys
23:09:43 <Vorpal> he is in UK. And I have no idea what he would do
23:09:58 <ineiros> Just gave him the address. :)
23:10:18 <Vorpal> ineiros, hope you have backups
23:10:38 <Vorpal> elliott, now I claimed the mountain south of the wood house. Just so you don't think that is free
23:10:46 <elliott> Erm, is there meant to be a huge transparent pa- nope it loaded, eventually.
23:10:46 <Vorpal> there is a nice one over east
23:11:25 <elliott> Now where *are* those torches...
23:11:44 <elliott> Vorpal: What wooden house?
23:12:00 <ineiros> If somebody makes a mess, I can kick them out (and restore from backups); but I'd rather not.
23:12:05 <Vorpal> elliott, the south one
23:12:32 <fizzie> The spawn-point to subtree route is very unclearly marked; I just stuck in some torches to help myself, not for general guidance.
23:12:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Wish I knew which way south was :)
23:14:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, is the map generated pre-halloweeen?
23:15:00 <Vorpal> it doesn't look biomeistic
23:15:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, is getting cloth from sheep broken?
23:16:35 <fizzie> Though based on Notch's tweets, he has it sort-of working and it will be in next patch.
23:16:50 <fizzie> Or at least killing animals on the server.
23:19:17 <elliott> ineiros: So which is more interesting, wherever Vorpal is or that lovely pit? :-)
23:20:15 <ineiros> elliott: Probably the former. The pit is quite deep and rather dull. And I don't know the direction it is in, because I walked there quite a long time.
23:20:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm outside interesting area. Building a first small house
23:20:35 <Vorpal> elliott, so just quite empty around me atm. Going to fetch stone
23:20:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Still, closer than I am. :P
23:20:50 <fizzie> There's a "fizzie's temporary hut" near my mountain home. :p
23:21:01 <fizzie> (It has a sign saying that.)
23:21:19 <Sgeo> If I got Minecraft, would you all just run?
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23:21:49 <elliott> Sgeo: Well, you don't know the server address. Yet!
23:22:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I'd leave spreading it to the server admin
23:22:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, but ineiros even let *me* in.
23:23:01 <Vorpal> elliott, mysterious are the ways of the server admin
23:23:02 <Sgeo> What, exactly, could a malicious player do?
23:23:12 <Sgeo> Besides make a huge flood
23:23:20 <Vorpal> Sgeo, cause all sorts of issues. flooding lava over stuff that burns
23:23:34 <elliott> Gah, that lava trap is such a tease, with the coal.
23:24:50 <Vorpal> elliott, you opened it?
23:25:22 <Vorpal> elliott, how did you know it was a trap then?
23:25:23 <elliott> Ello there, what's this then. An opening with torches.
23:25:26 <ineiros> elliott: Feel free to. I can always build a better one. :)
23:25:29 <elliott> Vorpal: It was mentioned in here... :P
23:25:57 <elliott> ineiros: Oh, if you *insist*.
23:26:10 <ineiros> I didn't even test if it works.
23:28:01 -!- TLUL has changed nick to TLUL|afk.
23:28:12 <elliott> Anyone who wants to watch me do something really stupid should ask ineiros to teleport to me round about now. :P
23:29:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't want to stand near you when it happens
23:30:03 <Vorpal> elliott, do take a screenshot however
23:30:06 <elliott> ineiros: Unfortunately, the blocks of coal ore are indestructible.
23:30:23 <Vorpal> elliott, do you have a pickaxe?
23:30:28 <ineiros> elliott: They shouldn't be. Do they disappear and then reappear?
23:30:37 <elliott> ineiros: I've tried mining them twice in a row.
23:30:50 <Vorpal> elliott, then just hold a few seconds after they go away
23:30:52 <ineiros> elliott: That happens sometimes. It's some kind of a bug. Sometimes related to the connection.
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23:31:46 <fizzie> There's more "unable to mine things" multiplayer bugs than just the recent one.
23:31:56 <elliott> ineiros: OK, and *now* I just placed a workbench to make a new pickaxe with since my old one ran out, and it *disappeared*!
23:32:05 <fizzie> Can't quite recall what fixed one.
23:32:35 <elliott> Stuff this, I'm going to fizzie's subtree emporium.
23:33:25 <fizzie> elliott: If you want, you can have a spare diamond pickaxe; there should be two in the chest that's on the right wall, further away from the door, at my house.
23:33:45 <ineiros> fizzie: Can you still "recharge" the items?
23:33:45 <fizzie> I'd go and throw it at you but the N900 doesn't yet have a client.
23:33:56 <elliott> fizzie: Unfortunately I have no idea where your house is! Also, there's no more torches leading to the subtree.
23:34:02 <elliott> I mean -- they cut off at one point.
23:34:07 <elliott> More accurately: I can't find the next one.
23:34:21 <fizzie> They should continut far enough that you can see the structures.
23:34:32 <fizzie> Have you swam across the ocean yet?
23:34:39 <elliott> True, I see some structures.
23:34:44 <elliott> fizzie: Does "ocean" mean "very short bit of water"?
23:34:49 <Vorpal> I placed a furnace and then it changed the direction it faced a few seconds later
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23:34:58 <elliott> fizzie: Okay, I see some really tall thing.
23:35:03 <elliott> fizzie: I guess that's where I gotta go.
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23:35:27 <fizzie> I'd come and give you a tour but the N900 doesn't yet have a client.
23:35:34 <elliott> <fizzie> I'd go and throw it at you but the N900 doesn't yet have a client.
23:35:35 <elliott> <fizzie> I'd come and give you a tour but the N900 doesn't yet have a client.
23:35:46 <elliott> I'd have saved your parents but then N900 doesn't yet have a client.
23:36:04 <fizzie> ineiros: Yes, but server-side health is coming in the next patch, which will probably fix that too.
23:36:12 <elliott> Vorpal: You never told me how hilariously inaccurate ladder-climbing is!
23:36:19 <fizzie> Forgot I actually said that thing.
23:36:51 <elliott> fizzie: I have this really terrible urge to break a little bit of glass above that really high drop thing above that thing.
23:36:54 <fizzie> Anyway, the small hut near the tall thing has the entrance to the mines; subtree is near the bottom of that staircase.
23:37:22 <fizzie> Yes, but that's a bit impolite. (I had the same urge, though.)
23:37:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought you knew about ladders
23:37:33 <elliott> Who made it, so I can confess my sins to them?
23:37:46 <elliott> ^W^W^W^Wextort them into^W^W^Wconfess my sins
23:42:17 <fizzie> I wasn't there when it was made.
23:42:42 <Sgeo> "<someone in #clojure> Sgeo: There was no "debacle". Just people being more or less rigorous with their notation :P"
23:43:38 <Sgeo> Is it wrong to think of Haskell as a stepping-stone to Scala, rather than the other way around as I've seen recommended?
23:43:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, fall through where?
23:43:54 <Sgeo> Learn pure FP first, then mix-and-match as appropriate for the situation
23:44:20 <elliott> Sgeo: You clearly have no idea what it means to be "appropriate for the situation"...
23:44:23 <elliott> Vorpal: That big glass thing.
23:44:38 <elliott> Does glass turn into glass when picked?
23:44:51 <Vorpal> elliott, it disappears
23:44:57 <ineiros> elliott: What? The ladder?
23:45:07 <elliott> ineiros: Erm -- You know that really tall glass... chimney for a better word?
23:45:14 <elliott> Just the huge glass wall with a huge glass spire on top.
23:45:32 <Vorpal> ineiros, there, made a torch path up to where I am working and put up signs saying "this place is under development by vorpal
23:45:35 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm still not entirely convinced that it's appropriate to implement a queue as a purely-functional data structure
23:45:35 <ineiros> elliott: So, how much did you break?-)
23:45:52 <elliott> ineiros: Nothing! I'm just trying to figure out who I ask for permission to break one little piece of glass so I can have a huge fall. :)
23:46:04 <elliott> Sgeo: Chris Okasaki hates you.
23:46:28 <elliott> Sgeo: Go buy Purely Functional Data Structures or something.
23:46:30 <ineiros> elliott: Well, at least if you replace it later, I guess removing a piece won't hurt much. :)
23:46:38 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm aware that it's possible
23:47:13 <elliott> ineiros: How long can I take a loan out for on a piece? :-P
23:47:22 <Sgeo> But... why? Unless there's a demonstration that purely-functional data structures can always be made as efficient as the non-functional equivalent
23:47:55 <ineiros> elliott: Until someone who cares notices that it's missing. ;)
23:48:05 <fizzie> I can't see any holes in that thing.
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00:01:18 <elliott> Hey ineiros, can I get a teleport to V*rpal? :P
00:01:44 <Vorpal> ineiros, please don't do that
00:01:51 <Vorpal> ineiros, let him find me
00:01:57 <Vorpal> I told him where I was before so :P
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00:22:37 <Sgeo> Why did elliott * out Vorpal?
00:22:44 <Sgeo> Scared of summoning him?
00:23:00 <Sgeo> Actually, that might make sense given context
00:26:55 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that unsafeInterleaveIO might be incredibly useful in getting people to really understand laziness
00:28:26 <elliott> Sgeo: It's also generally a bad idea.
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00:32:18 <elliott> "Sweden has issued an international arrest warrant for Wikileaks founder Julian Assange."
00:32:21 <elliott> What a shitty end to the night.
00:35:29 <elliott> Vorpal: You owe me a diamond pickaxe or something :P
00:36:06 <elliott> note to self: server URI is in logs of /msg to self
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03:54:33 * Sgeo relearns about Parrot
03:54:52 <Sgeo> I _think_ I might be willing to learn the Scheme that's on Parrot
03:55:36 <Sgeo> Or... it's not doing so well meh
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06:09:48 <Sgeo> I just remembered one of my pseudomathematical musings from when I was a kid
06:10:13 <Sgeo> The idea of a/b universes: The universe where any number * b = a
06:10:29 <Sgeo> a/a universes were in some sense parallel to ours
06:10:57 <Sgeo> (I might have a and b backwards)
06:12:25 <Sgeo> No, I don't, because a/b then becomes "all numbers"
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06:15:45 <Sgeo> Some just-now continuations of thoughts on the subject (I don't remember much more of related musings back then)
06:15:58 <Sgeo> a!=b destroys multiplicative identity
06:17:45 <Sgeo> What I'd love to see is a way, given a/b where a!=b, determine stuff about c/d
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07:50:52 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: You owe me a diamond pickaxe or something :P <-- I didn't fetch your. I had no clue where it was. And you have to clean up your own mess
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08:00:54 <fizzie> Oh, you've made a mess?-)
08:32:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, the mess was him losing his pickaxe :P
08:32:44 <Vorpal> as far as I know he didn't cause any other mess
08:32:56 <Vorpal> I certainly hope he didn't
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08:41:57 <Vorpal> ineiros, did something break? I logged out for a bit and now when I try to reconnect it stalls at "Logging in..."
08:42:21 <Vorpal> Connection lost: Tome out
08:43:15 <ineiros> Vorpal: It threw a couple of exceptions when you logged out.
08:43:42 <ineiros> Vorpal: Haven't seen it complain that much, though.
08:44:00 <Vorpal> ineiros, had to try 3 times to manage to log in
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09:20:56 <Vorpal> ineiros, I hope it didn't throw any exceptions this time
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12:55:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Because I just came up with an awesome reactionless drive idea for a Newtonian system with negative masses allowed.
12:58:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, you have a negative mass and a positive one with the same absolute mass at some distance from each other, then cause a self-cancelling force between the,
12:59:22 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. gravitational attraction or charge or just pulling on a piece of string.
13:00:11 <Phantom_Hoover> So we have a force of F on the positive mass and a force of -F on the negative mass.
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13:01:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Let m be the positive mass and -m be the negative one, the acceleration on the positive one is F/m, and the acceleration on the negative one is -F/-m = F/m.
13:01:30 <Phantom_Hoover> So they both keep on accelerating in the same direction with the same distance between them.
13:02:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a control system sketched out in my mind, but I need to eat now.
13:23:24 <ais523\unfoog> <Google, quoting a spam message sent to them> "Dear google.com, I visited your website and noticed that you are not listed in most of the major search engines and directories..."
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13:47:01 <fizzie> cheater99: Since he doesn't seem to be answering: [of the unfoog] <ais523> elliott: /dev/null NetHack tournament <ais523> we take clan membership very seriously
13:57:22 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: sure, also forgot to mention i'm busy although here
13:58:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Negative mass also has the quality of being an extremely effective weapon, since its normal reaction to surfaces is reduced.
13:58:50 <Phantom_Hoover> So if you fire a negative bullet at something it will accelerate towards it as soon as it comes into contact.
14:00:03 <oklopol> it's slightly insane though, maybe there could be some sort of antimateria effect so they won't just accelerate forever (and explode instead)
14:04:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the infinite acceleration obeys both conservation of energy and conservation of momentum.
14:05:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Negative mass has negative kinetic energy and negative momentum.
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14:20:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is with that temporary hut of yours?
14:20:21 <Vorpal> I just happened to pass it
14:22:01 <fizzie> If you mean why there's two blocks of dirt in the place where a door would normally go, that's because doors used to be badly broken in multiplayer -- they seem to work a lot better nowadays -- so I used dirt as a door to keep the chickens out.
14:28:20 <Phantom_Hoover> 8 coal, a half-worn iron pick, a stone pick, a stone sword, some torches, some wood.
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14:40:47 <Phantom_Hoover> ineiros, may I be inducted into your Esoteric Order of Minecraft?
14:41:27 <elliott> It's like a gigantic party! Of... losing diamond pickaxes.
15:02:43 <augur> chris barker is here! :D
15:05:47 <augur> chris barker invented Iota and Jot :|
15:06:22 <augur> well, currently he's in another room talking with a fellow student
15:06:26 <augur> but here as in at the department
15:06:53 <elliott> augur: tell him that from the entire esolang community, we hate him for inventing Iota, not because it's bad or anything, but because of people who think that just because it only has two symbols means it has the simplest semantics :P
15:11:41 <augur> yeah so hes talking about linear logic and the semantics of permission
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17:14:35 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: you know you were complaining about Wikipedia deletionists a while back?
17:14:48 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: yes (although i also hate rabid inclusionists!)
17:14:57 <ais523\unfoog> you might find http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Delete_the_junk amusing, basically someone wrote an article in support of deletionism and a bunch of inclusionists are trying to get it deleted
17:15:18 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: Amusing, or depressing?
17:15:33 <ais523\unfoog> it would be depressing if it were the other way round
17:15:35 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: "This page in a nutshell: Wikipedia lacks articles on a lot of notable subjects. We don't need to keep an article with no merit in itself just because it might, theoretically, be possible to make a good article on the subject."
17:15:41 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: To me, that is not deletionism.
17:15:54 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: That is "delete until you can write a good article on it -ism", which seems perfectly reasonable to me.
17:16:01 <ais523\unfoog> a cabal of inclusionists trying to delete something is still hilarious, though
17:16:18 <elliott> Even someone who wanted an article on every single person's nose might agree that a *bad* article on a nose should be deleted.
17:16:28 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: Yes, but still - depressing. What has Wikipedia become...
17:16:58 <ais523\unfoog> I found a page a while back that was impossible to revert vandalism on, because everything being vandalised was also vandalism
17:17:07 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: holy fucking shit at @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dream_Focus
17:17:09 <ais523\unfoog> (although eventually managed to figure out who to report it to, and they fixed it)
17:17:15 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: from the initiator of the, cough, "discussion"
17:17:40 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: when your user page has 110 sections, they're all dedicated to your ranty, rabid inclusionist principles, and it's been nominated for deletion twice... well...
17:17:56 <elliott> [[The American spelling of something is always the best
17:17:56 <elliott> If you go to licorice you will find it forward it to the liquorice, which Webster dictionary defines as a "chiefly British variant of licorice". Since there are more English speaking Americans than the total population of all other English speaking countries combined, then why not use the proper American spelling? Dream Focus (talk) 08:24, 3 December 2008 (UTC)]]
17:18:14 <elliott> this guy *really* hates the deletionists
17:18:27 <elliott> [[ Unreasonable Deletionist: "This species isn't notable. No coverage in any media."
17:18:27 <elliott> Reasonable Inclusionist: "Its listed in books about that type of organism."
17:18:27 <elliott> Unreasonable Deletionist: "That isn't significant coverage. Its just briefly mentioned, there not much about it at all, so that doesn't count. Also, a lot of things written about the species are from the people who studied it, so that is just self published works of their own original research."
17:18:27 <elliott> Reasonable Inclusionist: "All species are notable and deserve coverage. This is an encyclopedia."
17:18:27 <elliott> Unreasonable Deletionist:"Notability is not inherited. You have to prove you are notable by getting mentioned on the news at least twice or being interesting and unique enough to get ample coverage in books not published by the researchers themselves or other people involved."
17:18:31 <elliott> Reasonable Inclusionist: Sigh. "Rescue Squadron away! Please help me reason with this person."]]
17:18:33 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: his talk page has about as many sections, plus archives
17:18:34 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: ok, i have to step away from this now, because my urge to punch is risign
17:18:41 <ais523\unfoog> which implies to me that he just isn't archiving properly
17:19:24 <elliott> i do not like this Dream Focus person
17:19:44 <elliott> The mailing list will remain open, well-advertised, and will be regarded as the place for meta-discussions about the nature of Wikipedia. Very limited meta-discussion of the nature of Wikipedia should be placed on the site itself. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. The topic of Wikipedia articles should always look outward, not inward at the Wikipedia itself.]] --[[User: Jimbo Wales]]
17:19:53 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: I would love to measure the activity on Wikipedia:foo vs. the mailing list.
17:20:07 <elliott> also, survey Wikipedia editors to find out how many even know what a mailing list is, or that that one exists
17:20:07 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: when he made that comment, the Wikipedia: namespace didn't exist
17:20:28 <ais523\unfoog> I think the namespace was mostly made to replace the mailing list, as a wiki is better for discussions than email or a forum IMO
17:20:35 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: come to think of it, Wikipedia would be a *lot* better if Wikipedia: only existed for, say, the essays, and all discussion was on the mailing list
17:20:51 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: 1. The *huge* idiots don't know how to subscribe to a mailing list, or won't bother.
17:21:09 <elliott> (3. If you whine excessively, people tell you to stop clogging their email boxes.)
17:22:38 <elliott> "You can edit this page right now" is a core guiding check on everything that we do. We must respect this principle as sacred.]]
17:22:41 <elliott> Any changes to the software must be gradual and reversible. We need to make sure that any changes contribute positively to the community, as ultimately determined by everybody in Wikipedia, in full consultation with the community consensus.]]
17:22:54 <elliott> (1) and yet disabling anonymous editing gets wide support
17:22:56 <ais523\unfoog> I think a mailing list would move too quickly to be tenable
17:23:03 <elliott> (2) heheheheheheheheheheehehehehe approved revisions
17:23:07 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: no, but from the idiots.
17:23:48 <ais523\unfoog> approved revisions is less of an awful idea, as an alternative to protection (which is how it was used in the tests)
17:24:02 <ais523\unfoog> in fact, the vast majority of PC-protected articles allow any autoconfirmed user to approve a revision
17:24:26 <ais523\unfoog> that seems like a better version of semiprotection to me, although I bet it'll be misapplied if consensus is to turn it on
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18:01:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, ineiros: I think one of you ought to see what they are up to. I could hide it with trees. Your might be less lucky
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18:38:54 <elliott> Sgeo: http://imgur.com/AFlVw.png.
18:38:57 <elliott> Sgeo: http://imgur.com/AFlVw.png
18:39:00 <elliott> Sgeo: http://imgur.com/PdqXT.png
18:40:24 <Sgeo> They is a structure?
18:40:39 <Sgeo> Someone else on the server?
18:41:07 <elliott> Sgeo: They is Phantom_Hoover and I, although fizzie has now joined in.
18:41:13 <elliott> Sgeo: We were "up to" building that gigantic thing.
18:41:47 <Sgeo> I take it that Vorpal thinks it's an eyesore
18:43:11 <elliott> Sgeo: He seems to have grown to accept it.
18:46:10 * Sgeo is now playing with a disembodied head
18:47:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: It is certainly a bit... extravagant.
18:47:56 <fizzie> I wouldn't build something like that at home, but... well, whatever floats their boats, I guess.
18:51:14 <elliott> Prettiness: http://imgur.com/tfIBG.png
18:51:28 * Sgeo is not a function
18:52:48 <Sgeo> I had to tilt my monitor to see the colored lights
18:52:56 <Sgeo> Unless that's a monitor hallucination
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18:54:42 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: So, pretty much directly south from the skyway L.
18:55:27 <Phantom_Hoover> You can tell it by the fact that it has an enormous overhang.
18:58:09 <elliott> Sgeo: There are lights, but they are not coloured.
18:58:15 <elliott> There are different colours there beacuse of the rendering engine.
18:58:34 * Sgeo wants to play with Uru Live's firemarbles
18:59:49 <Sgeo> http://www.gunda.hu/uru/marbles.jpg
19:03:02 <elliott> <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: So, pretty much directly south from the skyway L.
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20:18:42 <Gregor> We're playing SEXCRAFT
20:18:47 <Gregor> ... with TENTACLE MONSTERS.
20:23:27 <oklopol> elliott: i know you are but what am i
20:24:00 <Sgeo> Homo sapiens, Ihope
20:24:13 <Sgeo> Scary that you wouldn't know that
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20:53:21 <Sgeo> WHY is there a computer game of Diplomacy that has a single-player mode?
20:55:45 <Sgeo> Although watching a Let's Play can give a good sense of the physical play
21:07:05 * Sgeo traps augur in a radioactive box inside a burrito
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22:12:49 <Sgeo> Would building a BF(like) interpreter be easy?
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22:18:16 <elliott> http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree15.png
22:18:39 <elliott> http://zem.fi/~fis/subtree12.png -- THE FLATWAY
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22:22:53 <olsner> Sgeo: considering there's already an 8-bit cpu, why should it be hard? :)
22:23:47 <olsner> also, turns out you can watch the LHC live
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22:24:37 <elliott> olsner: indeed: http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html
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22:34:39 * Sgeo wants a more realistic rendition of what would happen
22:34:57 <Sgeo> (Yes, I know that nothing's going to happen, but if it did, what would it look like?)
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23:04:04 <elliott> ***NOTE TO SELF: COBBLES ARE IN FIZZIE'S CHEST***
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23:39:18 <Gregor> <pikhq> For the information of #esoteric: I've not disappeared, I just have an Internet outage.
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23:42:27 <zzo38> In the book "Godel, Escher, Bach", the author describes a programming language BlooP, and FlooP. The primitive operations are adding, multiplying, testing if numbers equal, and testing if one number is greater than another. Actually, none of these primitive operations are needed, nor are conditionals needed. The only primitive operation needed is successor operation.
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23:45:19 <zzo38> If you want, try making the BlooP operations using only successor as a primitive operation and using no conditionals (IF command), but otherwise using the same codes as BlooP (or FlooP).
23:46:34 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, Vorpal, elliott, ineiros, http://ompldr.org/upload
23:46:45 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, Vorpal, elliott, ineiros, http://ompldr.org/vNjhpeg
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23:49:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, same map as before?
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23:50:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no, it is the map?
23:50:46 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, Vorpal, elliott, ineiros, http://ompldr.org/vNjhpeg
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23:51:12 <Vorpal> clearing browser cache fixed
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00:05:42 <fizzie> Mt. Hoover looks like a hoover.
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00:29:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, see message on there
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00:53:56 <elliott> [ ]10.11.1919-Nov-2010 16:45 25K
00:53:56 <elliott> [ ]10.11.1819-Nov-2010 00:00 110K
00:54:03 <zzo38> If a program is written in Enhanced CWEB (or CWEB, or WEB), that means it can include a bibliography, it also means that other programs/books can reference this program in their bibliography, too.
01:00:41 <zzo38> Do you want to join 'Charities for poor people and monsters with names starting with "A"'?
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01:13:48 <zzo38> Let's you play this game? http://sprunge.us/QHYc http://sprunge.us/ONKP
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02:07:54 <elliott_> Hey, even WardsWiki agrees with me:
02:07:56 <elliott_> [[Many people get into programming because ProgrammingIsFun. However, after some time doing it professionally, it loses its fun-ness.
02:07:56 <elliott_> The saving graces of a programming career are that (a) it pays pretty well, and (b) you generally don't have to clean toilets. But for those who want something more fulfilling from their forty-or-more hours a week for forty-or-more years in the working world, programming can be lacking.]]
02:09:03 * Sgeo doesn't remember the last time he programmed for recreation :/
02:11:49 <madbrain> elliott: every job has some bad points
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02:12:25 <elliott_> If what you like to do is X, then X is a bad career choice except in some rare circumstances.
02:12:40 <Sgeo> elliott_, so I should become a doctor?
02:12:43 <elliott_> It just so happens that a regular, 9-to-5 barely-even-code monkey job is not one of these circumstances.
02:13:04 <elliott_> Sgeo: Uhh... sure. I gather it pays well. But, also, don't do something you don't *like* doing, obviously...
02:13:28 <elliott_> Pick two things; one of those things you enjoy doing a lot, so don't make it your career. The other you like doing, but wouldn't necessarily do in your own time. Tada, career.
02:13:32 <elliott_> At least this is how I view things.
02:13:42 <madbrain> so don't do something you don't like doing but don't do something you like doing
02:14:05 <Sgeo> I like the thought of saving lives, a LOT, and having the knowledge necessary to help family members if needed. I'm scared though of making mistakes, and witnessing death
02:14:12 <elliott_> madbrain: Don't do The Thing you like doing; the one thing you really like to do.
02:14:22 <elliott_> madbrain: But do something you like to do -- just not something you would, if not being paid for it, do.
02:14:30 <elliott_> i.e. Enjoy your job, but don't... job your enjoy.
02:14:53 <elliott_> Sgeo: It doesn't help that "doctor" is rather vague.
02:14:58 <elliott_> madbrain: So what's The Thing you like to do?
02:15:03 <madbrain> it's actually not my main hobby
02:15:18 <elliott_> madbrain: Well, then you're set.
02:15:40 <elliott_> madbrain: Us "The Thing is programming" people have troubles because programming tends to be one of the most menial jobs of its kind...
02:16:11 <elliott_> But no, who do I kid? The Thing is Minecraft. I can't stop building this goddamn staircase.
02:16:28 <madbrain> irl I need a plan to end up avoid coding databases
02:16:50 <elliott_> madbrain: Coding databases sounds fun! Making code that just shoves stuff in and out of a database does not.
02:16:57 <elliott_> madbrain: I know that's what you meant. :)
02:17:40 <elliott_> madbrain: Unfortunately 99% of programming is grabbing stuff from a database, processing it lightly, and presenting this, or grabbing stuff from a data, presenting it, and then putting it back in.
02:18:06 <elliott_> madbrain: It is really an accident of history that it requires a Programmer, capital P, to do this, when really a DBA or whatever should be able to set up a task so simple. (Assuming more competent DBAs than I hear about.)
02:19:27 <madbrain> right now I mostly have to graduate from ridiculous summer jobs as a cook or doing nothing
02:20:04 <elliott_> I continue to look towards the very far-off comfortable box that is tenure. :p
02:20:26 <elliott_> "Then I can play Minecraft ALL DAY!"
02:20:49 <madbrain> I don't actually like academia too much
02:20:56 <madbrain> the working conditions are good tho
02:21:38 <elliott_> I like academia. Okay, so tenure is legitimately stupid, but...
02:22:31 <madbrain> dunno, if I could get out of all those introductory classes I might get to research one day
02:26:15 <madbrain> I came up with an interesting architecture for my synth project :3
02:27:28 <madbrain> yeah, I gotta make a nice VST code template if I want to program the synth of doom
02:27:35 <madbrain> so I'm working on a smaller synth first :D
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02:29:34 <madbrain> so I'm making a waveshaper-ringmod synth
02:29:45 <madbrain> which is afaik a new architecture :D
02:34:24 <elliott_> madbrain: are you addicted to minecraft too? ;_;
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02:39:53 <elliott_> madbrain: you should help me build this staircase, except i shouldn't give out the ip
02:40:30 <elliott_> madbrain: I've got a staircase from sea level to top, and then at the top there's a drop right down to bedrock, where there's a staircase to sea level (after turning around, so it meets with the original staircase in one place)
02:40:49 <elliott_> madbrain: now i'm extending that second staircase to the top, digging another hole, and then making another staircase to attach on to the first staircase
02:40:59 <elliott_> leaving a GIGANTIC HUGE MONOLITHIC LOOP THAT DOMINATES THE ENTIRE LANDSCAPE
02:42:04 <olsner> everything looks better in all-caps
02:45:07 <elliott_> just one tower to go, I think!
02:50:02 <elliott_> TODO: Dig hole. Build mouth-supports around the mouth. Light it with torches.
03:02:47 <Sasha> MINECRAFT FUCKYEAH
03:03:07 <Sasha> I remember a week or so ago I was talking about it and everyone was all "That's lame, man."
03:07:20 <elliott_> 10.09.28:06:12:29 <Vorpal> alise, Minecraft?
03:08:16 <elliott_> Sasha: Well, you didn't mention it in here.
03:08:24 <elliott_> also, Minecraft fans are still annoying.
03:08:42 <Sasha> Imentioned it in here
03:08:52 <Sasha> and I am not a fan, I just like building shit.
03:11:03 <elliott_> elliott@dinky:~/esoteric$ grep -ri 'sasha.*minecraft' 10.{08,09,10,11}*
03:11:03 <elliott_> 10.10.26:16:42:44 <Sasha> how do I drain big basins in Minecraft?
03:11:03 <elliott_> 10.11.08:14:19:49 <Sasha> mmmm Minecraft
03:11:03 <elliott_> 10.11.08:16:42:01 <Sasha> mmmm Minecraft
03:11:33 <elliott_> 16:43:07 <elliott> we don't have any minecraft players here.
03:11:33 <elliott_> 16:43:11 <elliott> only fizzie who played for a total of two days
03:12:38 <elliott_> Sasha: what am i meant to do now, though? I've built one longest staircase possible -- bedrock to top -- and one shorter -- sea level to top, and plan to extend the other one as part of the huge system.
03:12:48 <elliott_> it is a gigantic, GIGANTIC blot on the landscape
03:13:05 <Sasha> THAT IS THE POINT OF MINECRAFT
03:13:13 <Sasha> I make small village settlements
03:13:19 <Sasha> and then have fun in them
03:13:42 <elliott_> skyway! ridiculously long, extended skyway!
03:13:53 <elliott_> somehow i doubt the tunnel to Mt. Hoover will ever be completed though
03:15:33 <elliott_> Hey, I vandalised the skyway --> sign. (This is more a note to myself so I don't forget.)
03:15:40 <elliott_> Sasha: I don't think I should give it out myself, sry. Ask ineiros.
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03:16:01 <elliott_> It is pretty small really, and wouldn't be as much fun with tons of people on.
03:17:25 <elliott_> Also redid the Vorpal vs. fizzie sign. (Again, note to self.
03:20:20 <elliott_> Note to self: Ask Vorpal if he wants stairs for the entrance to his house.
03:26:22 * Sgeo blinks at benuphoenix's presense
03:26:56 * Sgeo vaguely wishes he noticed it before he left
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03:41:47 <elliott_> Undid my silly SKYWAY vandalism. :p
03:49:16 <elliott_> $ who | cut -d' ' -f1 | sort | uniq | xargs -i grep '{}' /etc/passwd | cut -d: -f5 | sed 's/,*$//'
03:49:43 <elliott_> Also apparently the -i argument to xargs is "deprecated", heh. Seems like you're meant to do -I'{}' instead.
03:58:38 <elliott_> "The program accepts the *note Common options:: only." --coreutils info page for "arch"; renders as "The program accepts the see Common options only."... probably more a rendering "badness" than a bug in the info page, but still...
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04:10:26 <elliott_> Vorpal-logread: Yellow: "Scientific!"
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04:23:23 <elliott_> Oh, look at that; convinced myself I need to write my own email "client".
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09:20:23 <fizzie> I see there is some sneakery afoot!
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09:30:09 <Vorpal> <elliott_> Note to self: Ask Vorpal if he wants stairs for the entrance to his house. <-- I do at some point
09:30:15 <Vorpal> but well, not there yet
09:30:42 <Vorpal> <elliott_> Also redid the Vorpal vs. fizzie sign. (Again, note to self. <--- hrrm
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11:09:04 <fizzie> I don't know how it was "redone".
11:09:16 <fizzie> What the, did I seriously just waste almost two hours again?
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11:20:53 <fizzie> Heh, C preprocessor (ab)use: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/msg/082ffefaaed3b450
11:21:52 <fizzie> I think Chaos has been mentioned here earlier, but still.
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11:31:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, chaos-pp looks insane
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11:40:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, argh he is working on SMP health :(
11:40:34 <Vorpal> ineros: please don't update any time soon
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11:41:34 <Vorpal> oklopol, you bought it too?
11:41:52 <oklopol> no, and i won't buy it unless i get a computer fast enough for it.
11:43:06 <Vorpal> oklopol, fast graphics mode?
11:43:13 <Vorpal> oklopol, short viewing distance?
11:43:34 <Vorpal> oklopol, what are the specs?
11:43:34 <oklopol> and i also have a tiny little microcomputer
11:44:01 <oklopol> because i don't play games.
11:44:15 <Vorpal> err, you admitted you did just now :P
11:44:25 <oklopol> BUT I DIDN'T WHEN I BOUGHT THIS COMPUTER!
11:46:18 <oklopol> but anyway maybe i'll get a better computer at some point just so i can play mc
11:46:37 <oklopol> this computer usually can't run flash games
11:49:23 <oklopol> btw as i can't fight with the lag, what do you get from killing the different kinds of monsters?
11:49:33 <oklopol> wait, i could probably check that on the wiki, because i'm currently reading it
12:01:30 <oklopol> is there a thingie you can use to quickly check how far in some direction there's emptiness
12:02:08 <oklopol> because i want to carve this mountain hollow and build a flying castle within it
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12:28:42 <oklopol> this game is so fucking awesome
12:32:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Are you on the Esoteric Order of Minecraft server or on single-player?
12:34:26 <oklopol> no, would i have to have a bought copy
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13:18:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, NOW "castle of dread" sounds adequate
13:34:21 <oklopol> umm so actually how much was the game
13:35:10 <oklopol> that's like half a day's food.
13:35:15 <oklopol> i guess i might be able to afford it
13:35:32 <oklopol> WOULD YOU LET ME PLAY WITH YOU IF I DID??
13:37:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Sure, although etiquette is to let ineiros give you the server address, since he runs it.
13:38:59 <oklopol> it would be nice to have like a bot mode where you could easily program bots to do stuff for you (although that'd require resources ofc), it would be the ultimate strategy game
13:39:39 <oklopol> something i've always wanted to make, i think this would be the perfect world for that kind of thing
13:41:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the tunnel to Mt. Hoover would have been a lot less tedious if it had been automated.
13:41:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Although making them react when they hit lava could be tricky.
13:41:52 <oklopol> there would be a huge amount of scripts you could use to make all kinds of search & sensing nice
13:42:04 <oklopol> (maybe you could get them from animal brains)
13:42:27 <oklopol> (blackboxes with algos inside... or maybe not)
13:43:29 <oklopol> anyway you could make proper defenses for your home and stuff, and you could have wars etc, might be fun
13:43:38 <oklopol> i'm not saying it's not already fun
13:54:08 <oklopol> the wiki isn't very clear on this, how long does it take for a tree to grow from a sapling
13:56:14 <oklopol> hmm, i think i waited like 3
13:56:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I planted one in ineiros' Fortress of Solitude and it grew pretty quickly.
13:56:49 <oklopol> well there was grass where i planted it
13:57:40 <oklopol> maybe it was less than 3 i guess, i don't know how much time my mining took.
14:06:08 <Vorpal> have to leave for a while
14:06:58 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Although making them react when they hit lava could be tricky. <-- if on fire: use water
14:08:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oklopol: iirc sapling -> tree time is somewhat random. But generally a few in-game days. They seem to grow better while you are not looking
14:08:32 <Vorpal> oklopol, and planting on grass works too
14:08:34 <oklopol> i wasn't looking, i wasn't even thinking about it!
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14:21:45 <oklopol> yeah i can't purchase that without contacting my parents
14:22:08 <oklopol> or the bank where my credit card has been waiting for me to get it for 4 months
14:25:21 <oklopol> the parent thing or the bank thing :P
14:26:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Except then the bank serendipitously sent a new debit card when elliott was bugging me to get it.
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14:53:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Mt. Hoover from the north by night: http://ompldr.org/vNjhybg
14:56:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Current plan is to raise the ceiling of the glass room by a block and put glass in.
14:57:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a bit hard to see at that small size
14:58:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what about a maximised window. Like the 1263x857 ones I take
14:58:43 <Vorpal> or even 1680x977 it seems
14:59:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, with glass it is hard to judge where it stops going straight down and becomes a floor
15:01:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I would also like to make it easier to access, through a staircase in the "stem" of the mountain.
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15:08:52 <elliott> 01:30:42 <Vorpal> <elliott_> Also redid the Vorpal vs. fizzie sign. (Again, note to self. <--- hrrm
15:08:56 <elliott> I just made the formatting nicer!
15:09:47 <elliott> 03:40:34 <Vorpal> ineros: please don't update any time soon
15:10:01 <elliott> Vorpal: I also don't want him to update because torches are going to become lightstones which will not be as pretty on the stairs.
15:10:06 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, finished the other staircase
15:10:47 <elliott> 04:28:42 <oklopol> this game is so fucking awesome
15:22:53 <elliott> 05:38:59 <oklopol> it would be nice to have like a bot mode where you could easily program bots to do stuff for you (although that'd require resources ofc), it would be the ultimate strategy game
15:22:53 <elliott> 05:39:39 <oklopol> something i've always wanted to make, i think this would be the perfect world for that kind of thing
15:22:54 <elliott> 05:41:52 <oklopol> there would be a huge amount of scripts you could use to make all kinds of search & sensing nice
15:22:54 <elliott> 05:42:04 <oklopol> (maybe you could get them from animal brains)
15:22:55 <elliott> 05:42:27 <oklopol> (blackboxes with algos inside... or maybe not)
15:22:57 <elliott> 05:43:29 <oklopol> anyway you could make proper defenses for your home and stuff, and you could have wars etc, might be fun
15:23:00 <elliott> 05:43:38 <oklopol> i'm not saying it's not already fun
15:23:02 <elliott> oklopol: play Dwarf Fortress.
15:25:28 <elliott> oklopol: sorta, i haven't played, but
15:25:45 <elliott> oklopol: i gather that the main difference is that instead of being smart and helpful, the dwarves are all suicidal morons
15:25:54 <elliott> and, also, your responsibility
15:29:41 <elliott> oklopol: it's also meant to be one of the most difficult/deep games :)
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15:38:45 <oklopol> what do you mean suicidal morons, you can't program them?
15:39:19 <oklopol> or you can program them but they have their own moving algos etc, which suck?
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16:07:07 <elliott> <oklopol> what do you mean suicidal morons, you can't program them?
16:07:17 <elliott> you can't, as far as i know... but, at least, it's closer to what you were talking about than Minecraft :)
16:07:31 <elliott> it's also a 3D world but with a 2D interface, so yeah
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16:19:07 <oklopol> okay the lag seems to be getting worse, i just used almost a whole day to make a 4x5 glass wall
16:29:03 <elliott> oklopol: what settings have you g ot it on
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16:53:48 <oklopol> the minimal settings, as i've told you
16:54:41 <elliott> oklopol: close every other prorgam :P
16:59:03 <fizzie> Re "don't update", at least for the halloween update the client -- which auto-updates, of course -- refused to connect to old servers.
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17:00:53 * Sgeo throws hate at Windows 7
17:01:11 <elliott> fizzie: If I were you, I would "cp -R .minecraft .minecraft_good" at your nearest convenience, since we don't want the server to be updated.
17:01:41 <Sgeo> What's going on with updating?
17:02:26 <fizzie> Speak for yourself; I probably would want it to update, even if it brings server-side health.
17:04:58 <elliott> fizzie: It also fixes the respawning thing. Also, torches will become impermanent soon, and lanterns will be very difficult to get.
17:05:17 <elliott> Anyway if the server doesn't update there's little choice. :P
17:05:43 <fizzie> ineiros: What's your onion on all this?
17:05:52 <oklopol> no monsters & no health in the serverer game?
17:05:58 <elliott> oklopol: monsters optionally, but no health
17:06:08 <elliott> fizzie: He's said he was pretty lazy to upgrade, but that was before you revealed that nugget of knowledge.
17:06:16 <fizzie> Monsters are unkillable, so they're pretty silly.
17:06:16 <elliott> oklopol: also tools recharge if you drop them and pick back up
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17:07:40 <fizzie> Blocking the client from auto-updating sounds tedious, though of course doable. As does keeping two versions (one for single-player bugfixes and so, one for multiplayer).
17:08:01 <elliott> fizzie: Just enter an invalid password. Apparently the server refuses to let you connect in that case, but Eh We'll Figure Out Something.
17:08:08 <elliott> fizzie: (It may be easiest to simply make the server spoof a version, but.)
17:13:37 <fizzie> Anyway, I'd probably just out of principle prefer getting the obvious-bug "features" (like no falling damage, no tool-wear-out thing) to get fixed, no matter how useful they happen to be for buildnung. But whatevers.
17:13:57 <ais523> are you trying to get inside the mind of Notch?
17:14:13 <fizzie> No, he's posted in his blag that he's doing server-side health.
17:14:20 <fizzie> But those folks want to keep them bugs.
17:14:33 <ineiros> If the torch issue will be too annyoing, I'll just make sure there are enough pumpkins for everyone.
17:14:51 <elliott> ineiros: Better to put a shitload of torches somewhere.
17:14:55 <elliott> They'll turn into lanterns.
17:15:13 <fizzie> You can just /give laterns out by the boatload even post-update, it's not really an issue that way.
17:15:35 <fizzie> Anyway, if "hard to get" just means you need iron and lightstone dust, that's not especially hard after all.
17:15:40 <elliott> I still think torches look nicer.
17:15:53 <fizzie> We haven't even seen lanterns, I don't know how you can compare.
17:16:18 <elliott> fizzie: I know what a lantern looks like.
17:16:21 <elliott> They don't look like torches. :p
17:17:07 <fizzie> Well, something like http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:Praha_laterne-00-2003_12_22.jpg (second google-image hit for "lantern") doesn't look so bad, as long as it's not overdone.
17:17:37 <elliott> Not as atmospheric as torches!
17:20:56 <ineiros> Well, the details will probably be out soon.
17:21:11 <elliott> Lanterns aren't next week,a nyway.
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17:21:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Iron and lightstone dust.
17:21:33 <ineiros> And then we can see if we'll start to get night-time monsters as well. ;)
17:21:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes it is.
17:22:03 <fizzie> The "problem" seems to be that you're just utterly lazy bums.
17:22:03 <ineiros> Why do you speculate so much?
17:22:11 <elliott> ineiros: ...because it's been revealed?
17:23:03 <ineiros> elliott: Which part? And where? Details have a tendency to change.
17:23:33 <elliott> Oh, it seems it may not be confirmed (lightstone).
17:27:14 <oklopol> you need about one torch every 10 seconds, and i've found like 20 iron altogether
17:28:10 <fizzie> I have 198 iron stockpiled at the moment, and anyway it's not like torches are going to go *away*, they just flop off and need to be relighted as you go with flint-and-steel.
17:28:48 <fizzie> Anyway, we'll see about the rarity. Maybe it's only lightstone dust, which you can get by the billions and billions in the Nether. (Though he *did* say that bit about lanterns being "hard to get" somewhere.)
17:35:44 <oklopol> i don't believe in nether, my block figure is an atheist.
17:43:07 <elliott> does anyone know if stinky pirates like oklopol can connect to servers
17:43:19 <elliott> (he's finnish so he gets automatic rights to do so)
17:45:27 <ais523> elliott: hmm, there are special rules for finns?
17:45:27 <oklopol> my pirated copy of mc even came with a server program, so it would be a bit surprising if there was no way to do server stuff with it
17:46:23 <oklopol> ineiros has given his blessing
17:46:24 <elliott> ais523: it's a finnish server so
17:46:25 <ais523> I don't see why people think they're entitled to pirate things
17:46:41 <oklopol> ais523: no, i have automatic right to get on the server
17:46:47 <elliott> ais523: because copyright law is bullshit
17:47:01 <elliott> ais523: same way i wouldn't obey a law that, say, forbid me from saying the word "egg"
17:47:14 <elliott> oklopol: the servers check for login, i think
17:47:21 <oklopol> maybe i'll try, even though i'm in the middle of some really exciting stuff.
17:47:22 <ais523> elliott: indeed; I can see arguments for pirating things like abandonware, but why would you pirate stuff that would be copyrighted even under a sane copyright law?
17:47:33 <elliott> ais523: I don't believe in a sane copyright law.
17:47:41 <elliott> ais523: I oppose copyright; simple as that.
17:48:07 <cheater99> Sgeo: i liked that article on the monad intuitions
17:48:29 <ais523> elliott: hmm, that seems a little ridiculous; copyright law is out of control, but as far as I can tell the basic idea is a good one
17:48:30 <oklopol> hehe, i just got "Legal in Finland" as a title screen
17:48:50 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i don't seem to be able to
17:48:54 <cheater99> ais523: i'm with alise on copyright
17:48:59 <cheater99> ais523: i see it as a negative thing
17:49:15 <elliott> oklopol: it says that when you actually try and connect? hmm
17:49:42 <fizzie> The server does a player verification thing, methinks.
17:49:49 <fizzie> Because it's down when minecraft.net is down.
17:50:03 <fizzie> Returns some sort of passed-on exception about a minecraft.net URL.
17:51:11 <ais523> elliott: what's your position on trademarks, patents, and trade secrets?
17:51:18 <oklopol> fizzie: i disagree with cheater99, it's not important
17:51:21 <oklopol> ais523: what do you think?
17:51:29 <ais523> (I don't think those can be necessarily inferred from someone's position on copyrights)
17:51:45 <ais523> oklopol: I see nothing wrong with even the literal wording of current trademark law, although sometimes people try to use it in rather odd ways
17:51:58 <ais523> I'm undecided on patents, but think if they're viable at all they should be shortened to reasonable lengths
17:52:17 <elliott> ais523: Trademarks seem reasonable enough to me. Patents are, in their current form, beyond broken; I am open to the idea that the basic concept has some merit, but until someone demonstrates this to me, I oppose them.
17:52:21 <ais523> and I think trade secrets are sort-of redundant with the other laws
17:52:39 <elliott> ais523: I don't think revealing trade secrets should be punishable at all, unless we interpret "trade secrets" differently.
17:52:50 <oklopol> ais523: nono, your opinion on whether fizzie should tell his opinioin.
17:53:15 <oklopol> see i prefer the metaconversation.
17:53:34 <ais523> oklopol: oh; I don't think anyone should be forced to join a particular conversation on IRC, but notifying them of a conversation they might be interested in is entirely appropriate
17:53:44 <cheater99> ais523: i think copyright is idiotic. i think trade secrets are good idea. i think patents are idiotic. i don't have a position on trademarks.
17:53:55 <ais523> cheater99: hmm, interesting
17:54:15 <ais523> the thing with a copyrightless universe is that the vast majority of currently copyrightable things would never be released at all
17:54:41 <ais523> for instance, you have a legal right to look at the FBI's declassified files in America, but if you choose to, they take you into a room and give you a paper copy to look at
17:54:43 <cheater99> that takes out the people who do it just to get money from copyrights
17:55:04 <cheater99> and leaves in the money who release things because they want to let the world know about those things
17:55:12 <ais523> and you don't have much of an ability to do anything with the information but memorise it
17:55:12 <cheater99> i.e. the true musicians, researchers, directors
17:55:36 <ais523> cheater99: that's not what would happen at all, though
17:55:57 <ais523> films would be shown only in closed cinemas which people had to sign non-disclosure agreements to be allowed to enter, etc
17:56:01 <cheater99> ais523: funny, mathematics has been very happy and prosperous for thousands of years without the notion of copyright
17:56:34 <elliott> ais523: Please stop preventing your opinion as fact. Thanks.
17:56:39 <elliott> ais523: Please stop presenting your opinion as fact. Thanks.
17:56:48 <ais523> elliott: I'm presenting a prediction, as a prediction
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17:57:00 <elliott> ais523: "films would be shown only" -- this is not "I predict that films would be shown only".
17:57:12 <ais523> opinions and facts are both just statements, I don't think there's any particular grammatical distinction between them
17:57:27 <cheater99> ais523: i've had a bit of that same reaction, but i let it slip due to the fact that it's only your opinion that you're expressing.
17:57:32 <oklopol> ais523: there is in ithkuil
17:57:40 <ais523> oklopol: ooh, interesting to know
17:58:20 <ais523> cheater99: there will always be people who are willing to do things altruistically, or be paid to release them by governments (which is how maths and science has traditionally developed, even centuries ago)
17:58:36 <oklopol> it's ages since i read the grammar
17:58:51 <cheater99> ais523: yes. those are the people who are worth it
17:58:51 <ais523> but expecting them to get a reasonable level of funding to carry on their lives just from that, in most cases, is like expecting communism to work correctly
17:59:08 <cheater99> ais523: i don't want to read anything written by losers who can't even sustain themselves
17:59:33 <ais523> cheater99: except, those are the people who release things for free
18:00:01 <cheater99> ais523: life is about sustaining yourself and then doing the fun stuff. if someone can sustain themselves enough to be able to e.g. have free time to write a book, i respect them
18:00:05 <ais523> most people who release to open-source software, say, do it as a hobby as an antidote to a job in closed-source software
18:00:10 <cheater99> if someone's job is "writing a book" then that's a BS job
18:00:25 <cheater99> those people are able to sustain themselves
18:00:34 <ais523> cheater99: they wouldn't be able to without copyright, though
18:00:41 <ais523> because their employers would have no reason to pay them
18:01:03 <cheater99> you're very very wrong to think that
18:01:14 <ais523> likewise, most authors sell the rights to their books to a publisher
18:01:22 <cheater99> i work under a contract that is based on services
18:01:27 <oklopol> ais523: see in a perfect world, everyone has an interesting job for which they don't get payed, and also work at mcdonalds.
18:01:30 <ais523> cheater99: the contract wouldn't exist
18:01:39 <cheater99> wtf are you talking about right now
18:01:45 <ais523> oklopol: heh, that's a great parody of cheater99's argument
18:01:57 <cheater99> my contract wouldn't exist if there was no copyright?
18:02:04 <ais523> cheater99: what is your day job?
18:02:11 <Sgeo> That sounds like an elliott world
18:02:17 <oklopol> ais523: it's a parody of all copyright haters' arguments, but i'm sure i just understand their arguments wrong.
18:02:31 <ais523> and why does your company pay you to do that?
18:02:54 <cheater99> they pay because i come in at 9 am, i do what's asked of me, and leave at 5 pm.
18:03:03 <ais523> cheater99: no, you have cause and effect backwards
18:03:05 <elliott> ais523: Why are you feeding the moron and/or troll?
18:03:09 <ais523> you do /that/ because they pay you to
18:03:13 <oklopol> well, this is pretty exactly what elliott told me years ago, but maybe i understood slightly wrong back then, too, and, well, elliott was pretty stupid back then :)
18:03:20 <elliott> You're saying the same things over and over again.
18:03:28 <elliott> oklopol: actually this is nothing like anything i've ever said :)
18:03:33 <elliott> i wasn't as stupid as i seemed, just terrible at explanation
18:03:42 <ais523> elliott: you're right, he's trying to make you look bad by agreeing with you and then defending the argument really badly
18:03:51 <ais523> sort-of like a strawman, just with multiple people involved
18:03:58 <cheater99> ais523: now you've gone off on a tangent
18:04:23 <ais523> cheater99: IRC channels aren't limited to a single subject
18:04:26 <elliott> ais523: (or he's just stupid)
18:04:28 <cheater99> ais523: you make a lot of assertions without basing them in any sort of logical reasoning
18:04:32 <ais523> if you can't participate in multiple channels at once, you need more practice
18:04:33 <elliott> I have no idea what he said.
18:04:43 <ais523> *multiple conversations at once
18:04:48 <cheater99> ais523: there's no reason to be derogatory
18:04:49 <elliott> ais523: He'd have to be pretty dedicated to being casually stupid all the time to be a troll.
18:05:03 <oklopol> elliott: i told you i wanted to be a programmer, and that would be harder without the concept of copyright (back then it was slightly less common for companies to release open stuff and still somehow get moneys afaik), you told me you yourself are just gonna get a real job, and do the programming for free, as should others.
18:05:20 <cheater99> elliott: i find it funny that you have to resort to denigrating people
18:05:38 <elliott> oklopol: i was probably hallucinating, if i did say that
18:05:39 <cheater99> elliott: but i guess if that helps you get by in your life, there's not much that can be done about it
18:05:39 <ais523> cheater99: you weren't even in an argument with him!
18:05:56 <elliott> ais523: Oh, just put him on /ignore like everyone else already.
18:05:59 <cheater99> ais523: yes. and he started attacking me for no reason.
18:06:08 <ais523> elliott: my /ignore threshhold is /really/ high
18:06:14 <ais523> (it has been met on occasion, though)
18:06:20 <ais523> (although not by cheater99)
18:06:30 <oklopol> elliott: or i've dreamt the whole conversation, would've be the first time that happened
18:06:30 <cheater99> elliott: your problem is that you think everyone is like you. you're one of the few if not the only person to have me on ignore here.
18:06:43 <elliott> ais523: If you keep talking to him I'll probably ignore you temporarily until you stop; XChat can't ignore mentions of names...
18:07:01 <ais523> oklopol: yesterday I dreamt I'd overslept and woken up really late
18:07:01 <cheater99> ais523: so, coming back to the original conversation: why would my job not exist if there were no copyright?
18:07:13 <elliott> i did that, except it wasn't a dream
18:07:19 <ais523> cheater99: let's take this to #esoteric-offtopic
18:07:31 <cheater99> ais523: it's not like this place is ever on topic
18:08:00 <elliott> Offtopic stuff goes in #esoteric :p
18:08:00 <ais523> I know, it was mostly to carry it on without disturbing the regulars
18:08:13 <ais523> but I was pretty sure the channel existed already
18:08:18 <cheater99> ais523: i see no reason to move the conversation somewhere else. if you're annoyed by elliott's interjections, you just have to accept that he's childish, and then it's fine.
18:08:40 <ais523> cheater99: I'm not annoyed by them; it's a reverse, I'm trying not to annoy /him/, with something which is, after all, not the purpose of the channel
18:08:47 <oklopol> "<ais523> oklopol: yesterday I dreamt I'd overslept and woken up really late" <<< is this uncommon for you?
18:08:51 <elliott> <ais523> cheater99: I'm not annoyed by them; it's a reverse, I'm trying not to annoy /him/, with something which is, after all, not the purpose of the channel
18:08:55 <oklopol> that's like the most boring kind of dream :D
18:09:17 <ais523> oklopol: I do dream of waking up and getting on with my life occasionally
18:09:26 <cheater99> ais523: he'll choose to get annoyed at anything, randomly.
18:09:32 <ais523> but normally when I do I wake up at the proper time and go through the motions
18:09:54 <elliott> ugh, revert is brokena gain
18:09:59 <cheater99> ais523: the best way to handle childish people is to ignore it when they spit out the sucker and start waahing
18:10:02 <ais523> cheater99: that statement is very unlike ehird, to me; there are things that annoy ehird, but they certainly aren't chosen at random, and that's quite a character slur
18:10:18 <oklopol> ais523: that also happens to everybody. it's when you don't know which stuff happened in a dream and which stuff didn't when you're in trouble
18:10:34 <elliott> 09:59:08 <cheater99> ais523: i don't want to read anything written by losers who can't even sustain themselves
18:10:34 <elliott> 09:59:13 <cheater99> ais523: cruel but true
18:10:38 <ais523> oklopol: I do, but only after I wake up
18:10:39 <elliott> wow, he really *is* stupid.
18:10:54 <ais523> while I'm asleep, I don't know the difference
18:11:00 <cheater99> ais523: notice he started this conversation, but then when i started talking with you he decided i shouldn't be taking part, so he started his interjections
18:11:11 <cheater99> ais523: that's just a childish social tactic, why are you giving in?
18:11:12 <elliott> ais523: I'll note that cheater99 has this cycle of being faux saccharine "nice" to me for no real reason, acting offended when I disregard him because he's stupid and irritating, and then switching to being stupid and irritating.
18:11:14 <ais523> cheater99: no, I started the conversation
18:11:17 <elliott> Period of silence, restart.
18:11:33 <cheater99> ais523: you're right. i saw that he was one of the first people to join it, though.
18:11:45 <oklopol> ais523: well of course you don't know what's dream and what's not *in the dream*, otherwise the dream would become lucid
18:12:21 <oklopol> but when you're awake, whatever you think is actually dream should certainly be exactly what has been a dream.
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18:13:15 <cheater99> ais523: the fact doesn't change that he's making a mess right now just because he doesn't like me. since i have no idea why that is, i have just decided to start ignoring this part of his behaviour.
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18:14:00 <elliott> 10:06:30 <cheater99> elliott: your problem is that you think everyone is like you. you're one of the few if not the only person to have me on ignore here.
18:14:02 <cheater99> ais523: like, he was friendly to me for some time, and then he totally swayed to the other pole and got really pissed off for no reason that i know of. then he started ignoring me and/or insulting me.
18:14:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover and Vorpal don't exist, for one.
18:14:30 <oklopol> another well-known fact, people can't converse through text
18:15:18 <cheater99> ais523: when i asked him why, he just wouldn't answer, choosing to be hateful and childish instead of telling me what annoyed him and trying to even things out.
18:15:36 <cheater99> ais523: so, here's why i think he just starts hating things and/or people at random.
18:17:13 <elliott> cheater99: actually, it's the fact that it's fairly hard to tell whether someone's a troll or just stupid, so I erred on the side of caution until you came out with your ridiculous glob of incomprehensible sexism that tipped me off.
18:17:47 <cheater99> "ridiculous glob of incomprehensible sexism" what?
18:18:13 <oklopol> women are stupider than men, but they compensate by being hotter
18:18:41 <elliott> oklopol tries so desperately hard to get an ignore from me, but he never will
18:19:46 <cheater99> elliott: you're just trying hard to find any sort of thing that bothers you in me, to the point of blowing up small issues or making things up
18:19:53 <oklopol> on average, my experience is they are a lot stupider, with the rather limited measures of intelligence i possess
18:20:50 <elliott> i'd say it's more that there's social pressure for women to act stupid but whatever
18:21:20 <oklopol> well i'm not claiming that's not the reason
18:21:27 <cheater99> elliott: some time ago you've decided i'm the "enemy", and now you'll do anything you can to prove that to yourself, because it's easier to go back to your old ways, than to admit you might have to change your pre-conceptions
18:21:49 <Sgeo> Someone actually submitted something to /r/esolangs
18:21:51 <cheater99> elliott: which is childish, hence i stopped caring
18:22:00 <oklopol> in fact by intelligence, i may just mean the amount of interest for math :D
18:22:14 <cheater99> oklopol: my maths course was 95% women
18:22:38 <oklopol> about 50% are women in our dep
18:23:03 <cheater99> so how can you say women are less interested than men?
18:23:06 <Sgeo> Some befunge-93 interpreter
18:23:53 <oklopol> cheater99: because among the best ones, at least 60% are men
18:24:05 <Sgeo> Have no idea, haven't tried it, but the idea of activity on /r/esolangs makes me lol
18:24:09 <cheater99> oklopol: ah.. but that's not really interest, but proficiency..
18:24:18 <ais523> oklopol: personally, I blame it on the education system
18:24:29 <ais523> people tend to assume that women are bad at math and so don't teach them properly
18:24:47 <oklopol> cheater99: right, so maybe my measure of intelligence also takes proficiency to account. also, i may just be sexist.
18:25:16 <cheater99> ais523: yeah, i've seen that quite a lot..
18:25:41 <oklopol> ais523: that's a very common argument
18:25:58 <oklopol> and i certainly do not claim there's any sort of difference between the brains of men and women
18:27:00 <oklopol> i don't really believe people's brains have much difference anyway, it's all about interest & dedication.
18:27:38 <oklopol> which i believe is mostly environment
18:28:36 <oklopol> also the environment/genetics issue is hilarious, every now and then there's a new study that says "turns out it's all X, no Y" with X != Y being the two in any order
18:29:14 <oklopol> maybe that'd be fixed if i knew which sources were reliable and which are not
18:30:18 <oklopol> actually i don't care about any of this very much, i have a tunnel to dig
18:30:53 <oklopol> cheater99: seen the argument or the assuming
18:31:13 <cheater99> oklopol: not sure what you mean, can you rephrase?
18:31:25 <oklopol> cheater99: you've seen that quite a lot, what have you seen
18:32:27 <oklopol> i tend to try to teach stuff to women because i love talking about math, but i don't try to teach men that much because men are utterly uninteresting objects
18:32:36 <cheater99> "people tend to X" /\ "i've seen that a lot" => "i've seen X done a lot"
18:32:57 <oklopol> you can't have sex with them, so why talk to them or teach them
18:33:08 <cheater99> oklopol: after my first year in maths, i went to do physics as a second course
18:33:21 <cheater99> oklopol: i was giving a lot of house help :p
18:34:57 <cheater99> but i can pretend to if it makes you feel better around me, sweetheart
18:35:23 <oklopol> i'd love that, augur is so absently these days.
18:35:52 <oklopol> i should do some minecraft now
18:36:51 <oklopol> it's not so much that i actually want to have sex with every woman i talk to. it's more like if i plant a tree, i'll feel good about myself even though i'll never see it again, but if i planted a tree in another universe, that'd feel just pointless.
18:37:35 <oklopol> well i do want to have sex with every woman i talk to, in the sense that i'd love for life to be just one big math orgy.
18:38:08 <oklopol> but in the sense of actually trying to get in people's pants in this social context, not so much
18:40:11 <oklopol> also in this ideal world i'm bisexual for convenience
18:41:33 <oklopol> erm so i found my first lave
18:41:53 <oklopol> it's starting to rise, does it rise forever?
18:42:05 <elliott> oklopol: you want to get rid of that. try water.
18:42:20 <oklopol> but do i have to quickly block that leak
18:42:37 <oklopol> also do i get obsidian when lava meets water
18:43:28 <oklopol> also i just reached bedrock so maybe i'll just dig somewhere else
18:43:53 <elliott> oklopol: bedrock is not always level 0 fwiw
18:44:17 <oklopol> i guessed that, but so there is a level 0
18:44:21 <oklopol> i didn't actually know that
18:44:23 <elliott> oklopol: "Obsidian is a deep purple block that was first released into that game at version 0.30. Obsidian may be found on rare occasions, when there is flowing Water and still Lava nearby. Obsidian is created when flowing water hits a lava spring; when a water spring and a lava spring collide it creates cobblestone."
18:44:32 <elliott> oklopol: there's also a level infinity (128)
18:44:37 <elliott> oklopol: 64 above sea level
18:45:13 <oklopol> this i knew, but for some reason i wasn't sure 0 or -127 would be ununderable.
18:45:26 <oklopol> i probably should've been sure about that
18:45:48 <cheater99> oklopol is 25: http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/11/national_geographics_photograp.html
18:46:34 <oklopol> having lied about my age all this time would explain my constantly getting my age wrong
18:47:03 <elliott> oklopol: how old are you actually
18:47:29 <cheater99> oklopol: my family shall seek revenge from your family for centuries!
18:55:53 <cheater99> this room is fairly cold, have a wild guess what i'm using to warm it up
19:01:34 <cheater99> i'm sure that'll make it nice and cozy warm in here
19:01:56 <Sgeo> YAY DS WORKS ON WIN7
19:02:34 <Sgeo> Docking Station
19:03:18 <oklopol> so what about those blocks that look like stone with small lava bubbles in them
19:03:31 <Sgeo> cheater99, how is that relevant?
19:04:35 <oklopol> more precisely, should i hit it with my pickaxe, or will there be lava
19:04:49 <Sgeo> Is lava a bad thing?
19:05:18 <elliott> (F1+F2, then it's in wherever minecraft saves are)
19:05:21 <elliott> or just... press screenshot
19:05:36 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Blocks
19:05:54 <elliott> oklopol: if so, that's good and you want it.
19:05:58 <elliott> oklopol: it's what makes circuits
19:06:52 <oklopol> see i was sure it had to do with lava, so i just checked the lava page :)
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19:41:56 <oklopol> elliott: btw ofc i mined that with a stone axe :D
19:42:20 <elliott> oklopol: you should buy it so you can come to the multiplayer world
19:42:36 <elliott> think of it as an ENTRANCE FEE!
19:43:01 <oklopol> i'm planning to, i just can't do it before i get my credit card, which is on monday
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19:43:56 <elliott> oklopol: you can use MY ACCOUNT (no)
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19:44:52 <Vorpal> oklopol, you need iron axe for that
19:44:58 <elliott> hey ineiros there's unofficial custom server software for alpha
19:45:08 <oklopol> i know, learned to check before picking from that redstone blunder.
19:45:09 <cheater99> oklopol: can i join you in minecraftism?
19:45:20 <elliott> they probably have stupid stuff like health though
19:45:22 <oklopol> cheater99: yes, what do you mean?
19:45:22 <cheater99> oklopol: meaning, would i be able to join your server?
19:45:24 <Vorpal> oklopol, well, redstone is quite common. Unlike diamond
19:45:40 <elliott> "Adv. Physics: Does the server have advanced physics like water?"
19:45:48 <cheater99> pure misconception. all 3d games are client-server based.
19:46:05 <Vorpal> elliott, link to this page?
19:46:07 <oklopol> Vorpal: saw my first gold, redstone and diamond withing 10 blocks of each other
19:46:20 <Vorpal> oklopol, happens sometimes. Rare though
19:46:29 <oklopol> well i may have seen gold before and confused with that other thing, because i recall occasionally that other thing gave me nothing
19:46:45 <Vorpal> oklopol, "other thing" being iron?
19:46:57 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Alpha_Custom_Server_List
19:47:09 <elliott> Vorpal: mineserver has such advanced physics as WATER so loks like the most viable option
19:47:25 <elliott> "Currently in (early) development. (Alpha stage) Server still lacks some critical features and should be only used for testing."
19:47:53 <cheater99> oklopol: is it possible to set up a server for people to play on?
19:48:05 <cheater99> or is it like only servers provided by the game dev?
19:49:16 <Vorpal> oklopol, you want that definitely
19:52:41 <oklopol> cheater99: i know the least about this game on this channel
19:52:49 <oklopol> but yeah anyone can put up a server why not
19:53:04 <Vorpal> oklopol, need lot of RAM
19:53:05 <cheater99> oklopol: and you're wrong, i know even less!
19:53:10 <oklopol> i could probably put up a server you ppl could join, i assume the server thing that came with the torrent is some hacked thingie
19:53:15 <Vorpal> oklopol, it complains with less than 2 GB for itself
19:54:16 <oklopol> and i didn't mean i could do it right now or anything, just in theory
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19:59:32 <oklopol> half the things i carry are pickaxes
19:59:39 <oklopol> i seriously wish they'd stack
20:02:16 <elliott> 11:45:48 <cheater99> pure misconception. all 3d games are client-server based.
20:02:34 <elliott> also, you have to buy the game to connect to any server, the server oklopol has is downloadable from the website for free :p
20:03:31 <Sgeo> Awesome things said by me on IRC
20:03:38 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> I'm wondering if I accidentally killed her
20:05:15 <cheater99> http://www.midibox.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=midibox_pokey < want
20:05:29 <ais523> cheater99: well, that pattern certainly doesn't extend to 4D games
20:05:34 <ais523> no client/server architecture in adanaxis
20:06:07 <ais523> cheater99: just because you haven't played a game doesn't mean it doesn't exist
20:06:47 <cheater99> ais523: just because you didn't notice i was making a comical generalization doesn't mean cows are green
20:07:17 <Sgeo> There's a client/server architecture in Enigma
20:07:19 <elliott> "I'm wrong? Oh, uh, it was a joke. Ha ha. ha."
20:07:35 <cheater99> ais523: there should be a game that takes place in the Monster group
20:07:56 <Sgeo> Which is weird because it's a single-player game, but last I asked, it was to ensure good design
20:08:28 <Sgeo> Is the demo feature-limited, or time-limited?
20:08:58 <oklopol> i was thinking there should be a game where you can explore cayley graphs, you always see some sort of 3d projection or your local neighborhood
20:09:42 <ais523> Sgeo: which Enigma, there are at least three games called that
20:09:59 <ais523> (no doubt you're going to mention one I don't know now...)
20:10:28 <oklopol> you could give the presentation of the group, of course kind of hard to show the correct neighborhood, and undecidable in general, but it would be fun if it'd worked even for simple graphs
20:12:12 <cheater99> oklopol: yes, and your movement has to conform to some sort of n>3-dimensional vector field
20:13:23 <Sgeo> elliott, adanaxis for the demo thing
20:13:28 <Sgeo> ais523, the one with the marble
20:13:35 <elliott> Sgeo: you're downloading the wrong thing
20:13:56 <oklopol> cheater99: i was thinking just discrete jumps from u to u * generator_i :)
20:14:14 <cheater99> oklopol: oh, like in a chess game?
20:14:20 <elliott> Sgeo: Care to restate that but with more.... meaning?
20:14:30 <Sgeo> elliott, "wrong thing"?
20:14:41 <elliott> you're downloading the demo of it from when it was non-Free
20:14:43 <oklopol> kinda, except you have to do some sort of weird zooming when the group is not commutative
20:15:01 <oklopol> or monoid, but might be a bit annoying
20:15:10 <oklopol> (because it means not being able to come back)
20:15:36 <oklopol> (in case someone is listening but didn't know that, which i find unlikely)
20:15:52 <Sgeo> elliott, is there a Windows Free version? I just see a Linux/GPL version on the site that's free (as in both)
20:18:14 <oklopol> okay redstone is everywhere when you're down low
20:18:54 <Phantom_Hoover> It's more common than iron ore, at least in the tunnel to Mt. Hoover.
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20:23:50 <oklopol> making wooden tools wouldn't make much sense since wood is tons harder to get
20:26:11 <elliott> if(x) then(y) else(z) -- here, consequent=y and antecedent=z right?
20:29:04 <oklopol> erm so if i happen to dig up into a big pool of water, will it fill my cave an kill me?
20:29:15 <oklopol> because i have absolutely no idea where i am...
20:30:38 <oklopol> heh, i reached surface at the side of a mountain, huge fall
20:34:27 <Sgeo> It just now occurs to me why Adanaxis is called Adanaxis
20:35:56 <oklopol> i only realized it after you said that
20:36:05 <oklopol> i thought it was just a fun name
20:36:10 <Sgeo> I'm seriously the first to get a joke?
20:36:20 <Sgeo> I think I saw a pig flying
20:37:19 <Sgeo> It's the sort of name I might come up with.. except I'd spell it in a more obvious way
20:37:28 <Sgeo> And probably dashes
20:37:56 <Sgeo> SGU time now that it's on Hulu finally
20:38:22 <oklopol> (hulu doesn't work outside us)
20:39:15 <oklopol> what's the best way to kill monsters if you have such a lag there's no hope in actual combat :\
20:40:16 <Sgeo> Play a roguelike instead
20:41:04 <oklopol> i'm planning to try that at some point
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20:41:15 <oklopol> but i don't like the physics of those games
20:41:17 <elliott> oklopol: just avoid monsters
20:41:29 <oklopol> that's what i do until i find a cave
20:41:39 * Sgeo personally doesn't consider DF to be a roguelike
20:41:39 <oklopol> if i find a cave i have to see what's in there.
20:41:50 <oklopol> Sgeo: then your suggestion is pretty stupid
20:41:57 <oklopol> because i don't like that whole genre
20:42:12 <Sgeo> You were talking about lag
20:42:29 <Sgeo> Roguelikes don't have lag that prevent you from successfully fighting monsters
20:42:35 <Sgeo> It wasn't a serious suggestion
20:42:48 <oklopol> you don't have to assume i'm going to attack you
20:44:13 <Sgeo> What's the appropriate response to "sorry" when I was never seriously offended?
20:44:31 <oklopol> not thinking of a response at all
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21:08:01 <ais523> Sgeo: marble enigma is available for Windows at http://www.nongnu.org/enigma/download.html#stable
21:09:11 <ais523> Sgeo: I think a realtime roguelike is entirely plausible
21:09:16 <ais523> it's just that none of the major roguelikes are realtime
21:09:35 <oklopol> are you saying... it wouldn't be like rogue?
21:10:23 <oklopol> have to stop i guess, that was just too excitingh
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21:28:08 <Zuu> Anyone knows of 'amateur' web search services?
21:29:29 <Zuu> as in, google search, bing, yahoo search, and so on, except im looking for services that isnt backed by huge companies.
21:36:02 <Sgeo> ais523, I was talking about Enigma having a client/server architecture
21:37:32 <elliott> That uses Yahoo's backend though.
21:40:07 <oklopol> vjn.fi has a pretty advanced search engine that dfs's the internet
21:40:19 <oklopol> hmm probably not public tho
21:41:09 <Zuu> it seems that CUIL is dead
21:42:21 <elliott> `addquote <Zuu> it seems that CUIL is dead
21:42:25 <elliott> Zuu has been living under a rock
21:42:28 <elliott> even ais523 knows what cuil is
21:42:35 <HackEgo> 263|<Zuu> it seems that CUIL is dead
21:42:35 <elliott> oklopol: that sounds fun link me
21:44:42 <oklopol> nah i'd have to find it first
21:44:54 <Sgeo> Cuil theory, or something else?
21:46:05 <oklopol> elliott: also it's not like that takes more than 5 min to program
21:46:33 <elliott> oklopol: it still sounds amusing
21:46:45 <elliott> Sgeo: You know what Cuil theory is but not Cuil? Seriously?
21:46:47 <Zuu> anyone know of even more amateur search thingies?
21:47:16 <elliott> Zuu: why do you want to know?
21:48:27 <Zuu> do i need a reason?
21:50:12 <elliott> Zuu: well, it would help reuce our confusion.
21:56:46 * Sgeo makes a C:\Users\Sgeo\bin
21:56:50 <Sgeo> And puts it in his path
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22:46:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, my eyes have healed, but the damage to my thought processes has not.
22:48:30 <Phantom_Hoover> And my fingers to low-accuracy, high speed for typing.
22:52:17 <oklopol> after 10 hours of playing, it was hard not to start digging in the parking lot
22:52:52 <oklopol> "oh shit it's dark, i better get underground"
22:53:20 <elliott> I would love real life minecraft
22:55:43 <Phantom_Hoover> "****, why are you punching that tree?" "To get wood for a pickaxe!"
22:56:54 <elliott> "why did you dig a pit in our garden" "WHERE IS THE BEDROCK WHERE WHERE WHERE"
23:00:12 <elliott> "What the fuck why are you climbing into the mouth of a volcano jesus christ" "IT'S OKAY I HAVE WATER, I'M GOING TO GET OBSIDIAN"
23:00:12 <olsner> you need to find cabbage to feed the monsters, otherwise they eat you
23:08:31 <Phantom_Hoover> "Why are you putting those rocks in a pile?" "NEED STAIRS FOR MINE"
23:08:58 <Phantom_Hoover> "The mine you dug with couple of sticks and planks tied together?" "YES"
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23:46:53 <elliott> ais523: I'm going to make a website that displays what timezone you're in, based on your IRC times.
23:47:04 <elliott> And therefore what country you're in.
23:47:13 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:47:15 <elliott> ais523: It will never be GMT :P
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23:54:59 <zzo38> Do you know Hofstadter's BlooP, FlooP, GlooP?
23:55:05 <zzo38> Do you know Hofstadter's Law?
23:56:46 <zzo38> Yes which one? Or both?
00:00:21 <zzo38> I think that the IF command is not needed; the ABORT LOOP command is also not needed except mu-loops.
00:00:31 <zzo38> Nor is built-in addition or multiplication needed.
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00:04:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's good, just don't trust a word of it.
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00:12:23 <elliott> car_ () ((((true, b), (true, c), (false, false)), ** ERROR: "cdr called on nil")) ;
00:16:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: programming in c preprocessor
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01:10:32 <elliott> gah, cpp programming is so impossible but i love it
01:16:40 <olsner> pp as in preprocessor or ++?
01:21:26 * Sgeo guesses from context the former
01:21:34 <Sgeo> Also, can't imagine elliott playing with C++ for fun
01:22:14 <elliott> olsner: i've seen a functional language implemented in cpp so I KNOW it's possible to do this shit
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01:22:22 <elliott> (also a recursive fibonacci with BIGNUMS (yes, bignums) in the preprocessor)
01:22:25 <elliott> i just have to figure out how
01:22:33 <olsner> elliott: cool, but it's definitely not TC, is it?
01:23:29 <elliott> olsner: it ... might be if you ignore the recursion limit
01:23:47 <elliott> olsner: i mean, it has a recursive bignum fibonacci implementation. it doesn't even have *arithmetic* built in.
01:23:52 <elliott> olsner: so... it's an indicator.
01:23:59 <olsner> I was under the impression that cpp's evaluation order excluded arbitrary recursion regardless of limits
01:24:15 <elliott> olsner: it does, but there are "workarounds"
01:24:21 <elliott> basically you can get the preprocessor confused, in ways i forget how
01:24:43 <elliott> olsner: see http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/msg/082ffefaaed3b450 for the recursive fibonacci bignum
01:24:57 <Sgeo> I should go get pizza tonight
01:25:02 <Sgeo> And then turn into a pizza
01:25:23 <Sgeo> Also, I'm still pleasantly surprised that Windows 7 has a 16-bit color option
01:25:37 <elliott> olsner: I tried to look at the source of Chaos and Order (same repository; Order is a call-by-value functional language with lambdas in cpp) but they're so impossible to read.
01:26:51 <Sgeo> Note, BTW, that I'm not suggesting that computing Fibonacci numbers with
01:26:51 <Sgeo> the preprocessor is advisable.
01:26:58 <Sgeo> (that should have been in quotes)
01:28:36 <olsner> it would have been so much better if he did suggest that though
01:30:11 <Sgeo> Dammit qntm.or
01:30:40 <olsner> damn, I should learn how to do this kind of PP abuse
01:34:41 <olsner> ehm, wtf, sourceforge.net puts "Download <...> software for free" at the end of the title
01:35:18 <elliott> olsner: just use the cvs repository
01:35:35 <elliott> olsner: damn though, this shit is hard
01:35:43 <olsner> well, that requires *finding* the cvs repository
01:35:56 <elliott> olsner: I think it's impossible to do even useful lists without a ton of cpp-abusing infrastructure
01:36:49 <olsner> well, it was hard to even find the project when sourceforge looks like one of those pages that take your search string and adds "Download foo for free" to it
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01:38:39 <olsner> actually, the rest of sourceforge looks like one of those pages too :/
01:39:05 <elliott> olsner: sourceforge is pretty much the worst thing ever.
01:39:15 <elliott> olsner: http://chaos-pp.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/chaos-pp/
01:39:24 <elliott> cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@chaos-pp.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/chaos-pp login
01:39:28 <elliott> cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@chaos-pp.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/chaos-pp co -P chaos-pp
01:39:29 <elliott> cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@chaos-pp.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/chaos-pp co -P order-pp
01:39:48 <olsner> yes yes, I *know* how to find the cvs browser on sourceforge :)
01:39:58 <elliott> olsner: to be honest, if sourceforge died tomorrow the only thing that'd be missing is some downloads.
01:41:19 <olsner> implying that the rest is not worth saving or that it wouldn't be lost?
01:42:40 <elliott> olsner: sourceforge today is just a vaguely scummy advert for the now-proprietary and costly software that runs it
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01:43:01 <elliott> olsner: they try and position themselves as some sort of hub for open source software but it just isn't true; people who don't know better just sign up there for hosting
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01:43:50 <olsner> IMO they *used* to be what they were supposed to be, but it looks like something happened at some time that broke it
01:43:57 <olsner> broke it pretty badly too
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01:45:11 <elliott> olsner: I dunno, the software has been proprietary $$$ since ... 2000? 2003?
01:45:29 <elliott> olsner: so they're really hypocritical to start with, being basically an advert for open source software
01:45:45 <elliott> olsner: also, their website has always sucked. always.
01:48:11 <olsner> well, same business model as github then? I don't think they were evil at all around 2004 when I had a project on sourceforge
01:48:46 <elliott> olsner: err, github don't sell their software.
01:48:57 <elliott> olsner: github just sell accounts. i think you are very confused :)
01:50:50 <elliott> "car(cdr(list))" = true ((c, ** ERROR: "car called on nil")) ;
01:51:04 <olsner> maybe... I don't remember sourceforge selling their software back then at least
01:51:30 <olsner> they had the open-source version of it on sourceforge though
01:51:42 <elliott> olsner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GForge#History
01:51:47 <elliott> olsner: looks like 2000, 2001 to me.
01:58:31 <olsner> bah, too many files in chaos-pp can't be bothered reading them... saw one with lots of macros though :)
01:59:38 <elliott> olsner: they're all macros, silly :P
01:59:44 <elliott> olsner: that's a language, languages are SIMPLE!
02:01:01 <olsner> sounds like you vastly underestimate the suckage of cvs
02:01:23 <elliott> olsner: damn...cvs...blowerates?
02:02:36 <elliott> #define ORDER_PP_CONST(value) 8DEF_CONST,value,
02:02:39 <elliott> NOTHING IS SIMPLE AND/OR SACRED
02:03:03 <olsner> was that supposed to be (DEF_CONST?
02:03:13 <elliott> # define ORDER_PP_8NATIVE(P,v,n,m,ps,...) (,ORDER_PP_FW(TYPE_CHECK,(,ORDER_PP_TUPLE_AT_0 ps##P,P##v,ORDER_PP_LIT_IS_0))(,P##n)(ORDER_PP_8NATIVE_,LAST,MORE)(,P##n,P##m,P##ps,P##v),P##__VA_ARGS__)
02:05:06 <elliott> olsner: it would help if it was commented
02:05:29 <elliott> #define ORDER_PP_FIND(_) ORDER_PP_FX(EVAL,(ORDER_PP_FIND_GT_0()))
02:05:29 <elliott> #define ORDER_PP_EVAL(i) ORDER_PP_EVAL_##i
02:05:51 <elliott> #define ORDER_PP_OUTPUT(s) ORDER_PP_FX(OUTPUT_EMIT_A,ORDER_PP_CM(,ORDER_PP_OUTPUT_PAIR_A (,0,)s(0,),8OUTPUT_STOP,)))
02:05:55 <elliott> #define ORDER_PP_OUTPUT_F (,
02:05:56 <olsner> /* THIS WAS HARD TO WRITE IT SHOULD BE HARD TO READ DAMMIT */
02:06:03 <elliott> #define ORDER_PP_OUTPUT_EMIT_3(P,...) ,P##__VA_ARGS__
02:06:04 <elliott> #define ORDER_PP_OUTPUT_EMIT_4(P,...) (P##__VA_ARGS__
02:06:04 <elliott> #define ORDER_PP_OUTPUT_EMIT_5(P,...) )P##__VA_ARGS__
02:06:21 <elliott> #define ORDER_PP_DEF_8if(b,c,...) 8EVAL_IF,b,c,ORDER_PP_IS_TUPLE_SIZE_1(,0##__VA_ARGS__)(,ORDER_PP_REM,8do)(__VA_ARGS__),
02:06:44 <Sgeo> http://news.pinkpaper.com/NewsStory/4319/18/11/2010/countries-vote-to-accept-execution-of-gays.aspx
02:06:45 <elliott> / The following chapters gradually introduce and formally define
02:06:45 <elliott> / the elements of the Order language, but in this section we will
02:06:45 <elliott> / take a brief informal look at a concrete example. The code
02:06:45 <elliott> / snippets that we will show in this section may look ``funny'' and
02:06:45 <elliott> / may be difficult to understand on first reading, but you
02:06:45 <elliott> / shouldn't worry about it. You may want to read this section again
02:06:47 <elliott> / after you've finished a few more chapters.
02:06:50 <elliott> olsner: the examples are literate cpp.
02:07:08 <elliott> 8separate(8N, 8quote(bottles)))
02:07:20 <elliott> you can't make this shit up
02:08:11 <olsner> all those tokens starting with digits look weird, I guess they are part of the trick
02:08:24 <Sgeo> I hate everyone sometimes
02:08:47 <elliott> olsner: they're just names to not clash
02:09:02 <Sgeo> elliott, what I just linked to
02:09:16 <olsner> names can't start with digits, those should just be invalid integers
02:09:28 <elliott> olsner: names can start with digits.
02:09:32 <elliott> olsner: you're thinking in C!
02:11:45 <olsner> indeed I am thinking in C, and I have barely scratched the surface of the beast that is CPP
02:12:07 * Sgeo suddenly wants to learn B
02:12:42 <elliott> Gregor: C is not as good as cpp.
02:13:10 <elliott> Gregor: After all, all your "C" programs are actually just cpp programs that require TWO ADDITIONAL STEPS to be run.
02:13:29 <elliott> Gregor: Running it through the "C" compiler, and then running the resulting binary.
02:13:31 <Gregor> Yeah, but CPP isn't* TC**.
02:13:36 <elliott> Gregor: Whereas cpp programs just require cpp to run!
02:13:45 <Gregor> **: And depending on how pedantic you are, maybe C isn't either.
02:14:00 <elliott> Gregor: Mm, I dunno man, this functional language does 99 bottles of beer, and I've seen a recursive fibonacci function that uses bignums -- in cpp -- well...
02:14:09 <olsner> surely, C with infinite memory must be TC?
02:14:13 <elliott> olsner: you can't have that
02:14:20 <elliott> olsner: sizeof(void *) must be finite
02:14:28 <elliott> olsner: admittedly, char could be a bignum
02:14:32 <elliott> and thus sizeof(void *) = 1
02:14:38 <elliott> olsner: but iirc there was a problem with *that* too
02:14:50 <olsner> I think we've had this discussion before
02:15:09 <elliott> olsner: but yeah, (void *) has to be n*CHAR_BIT bits for some n
02:15:16 <elliott> and CHAR_BIT has to be finite, obviously
02:15:24 <elliott> (because char is an integral type and infinity isn't an integer)
02:15:41 <elliott> olsner: C/POSIX is PROBABLY TC because of files.
02:16:17 <olsner> just connect to the tape server over TCP and it's turing complete? :)
02:16:26 <elliott> / Undoubtedly the first thing to notice was the prefix `8'. It
02:16:26 <elliott> / is a prefix of \emph{all} Order expressions and its purpose is to
02:16:26 <elliott> / prevent \emph{unintended macro replacement} of Order expressions.
02:16:26 <elliott> / A token that starts with a digit, like `8cond', is called a
02:16:26 <elliott> / \emph{pp-number} and because it isn't an \emph{identifier} it
02:16:28 <elliott> / isn't subject to macro replacement.
02:16:30 <elliott> olsner: that's why 8 is used
02:16:43 <elliott> / admittedly an ugly detail, but it is absolutely necessary,
02:16:43 <elliott> / because otherwise an Order expression might get macro replaced by
02:16:43 <elliott> / a user or standard defined macro, like the \emph{abominable}
02:16:43 <elliott> / macro `I' incredibly defined by the C standard\footnote{There
02:16:43 <elliott> / aren't words strong enough that I could credibly use here to
02:16:45 <elliott> / describe what I think about the quality of certain parts of the C
02:16:47 <elliott> / standard \cite{c:1999}.},
02:16:53 <elliott> this is the worst thing ever :D
02:17:14 <olsner> 'I' is a predefined macro? wtf?
02:18:21 <elliott> Gregor: think i should troll the esolangs wiki, wrt TCness?
02:18:33 <olsner> hah, there it is, #define I _Complex_I
02:18:41 <elliott> Gregor: I'm so tempted to put up a language, Brainfalt or Brainfault or something (brainfuck + halt), defined to be the set of brainfuck programs that halt.
02:19:15 <elliott> Gregor: This language is of course completely unimplementable -- well, you can't provide diagnostics on every invalid program, rather.
02:19:25 <elliott> Gregor: (But you can define "loop forever" as the error reporting system.)
02:19:35 <elliott> Gregor: I will provide a complete, error-giving interpreter in Banana Scheme. :-)
02:19:54 <elliott> 8quote(no more bottles))))
02:20:02 <elliott> 8print(8ap(8B, 8N) (of beer on the wall,) 8space
02:20:02 <elliott> 8ap(8B, 8N) (of beer,) 8space
02:20:02 <elliott> (take one down, pass it around,) 8space
02:20:02 <elliott> 8ap(8B, 8dec(8N)) (of beer on the wall.))
02:20:36 <elliott> 8for_each_in_range(foo, 1, 100)
02:20:38 <elliott> 8for_each_in_range(foo, 100, 1)
02:20:58 <Sgeo> Invite him to #esoteric
02:23:36 <elliott> printf(AVERAGE(3, 1, 4, 1, 5, 9, 2, 6, 5) == 4
02:23:39 <elliott> Gregor: how is this even possible
02:23:42 <elliott> why did nobody tell met his exists
02:23:57 <elliott> / It is probably safe to say that, compared to an average function
02:23:57 <elliott> / implemented using C++ template metaprogramming techniques, our
02:23:57 <elliott> / macro is both simpler and more flexible.
02:24:05 <elliott> This is the one thing *MORE COMPLICATED* than C++ templates.
02:25:04 <olsner> well, batshit insane is what it is
02:25:40 <olsner> at least they're not mutually exclusive
02:25:45 <Sgeo> I know how to convince elliott to give up on caring: I just need to have an affair with cpp
02:26:09 <elliott> Sgeo: don't worry; I don't believe that you could produce a working program of any complexity in cpp
02:26:14 <elliott> Sgeo: because, for instance, I can't
02:27:07 <elliott> olsner: you know what would make me kill myself because life couldn't possibly get any better?
02:27:13 <elliott> olsner: an implementation of m4 in cpp
02:27:24 <elliott> just encode all the nasty special chars with, like, ASCII_37 and the like
02:27:29 <elliott> dear god it would be beautiful
02:27:36 <elliott> (or even all the chars full stop :P)
02:29:35 <elliott> ((ORDER_PP(8seq_for_each_with_delimiter \
02:29:35 <elliott> 8tuple_to_seq(8quote((__VA_ARGS__)))))) / \
02:29:35 <elliott> ORDER_PP(8to_lit(8tuple_size(8quote((__VA_ARGS__))))))
02:29:43 <elliott> olsner: the craziest thing is, this is meant to be useful
02:29:46 <elliott> olsner: for code generation
02:29:54 <elliott> olsner: you can see above it actually *integrates* with everything else
02:30:04 <olsner> oh, so it wouldn't take raw m4, but m4 encoded as a sequence of ascii_n tokens?
02:30:19 <elliott> olsner: you could even have MNEMONICS
02:30:34 <elliott> olsner: interpreting m4 is obviously impossible
02:30:38 <elliott> olsner: the great thing is, m4 lets you reassign quote chars
02:30:46 <elliott> olsner: so this would actually have to interpret ascii values differently as it goes along
02:31:00 <olsner> well, how hard can it be?
02:31:15 <elliott> olsner: everything is either easy or impossible, that's my rule
02:31:36 <olsner> hmm, so there's really no point in doing anything at all then? :)
02:31:38 <elliott> now to read chaos, not order
02:31:44 <elliott> olsner: no, easy things are good
02:32:04 <elliott> olsner: lol, chaos headers use # instead of blank lines 'cuz blank lines would show up in cpp output
02:32:11 <elliott> in fact, even the comment blocks are in #s
02:32:29 <elliott> oh jesus @ chaos/preprocessor/list/core.h
02:32:33 <elliott> # define CHAOS_PP_LIST_NIL() ...
02:32:50 <elliott> lol for every x there's #define x_ID() x
02:32:58 <elliott> # define CHAOS_PP_LIST CHAOS_PP_LIST
02:32:58 <elliott> # define CHAOS_PP_LIST_ID() CHAOS_PP_LIST
02:33:06 <elliott> # define CHAOS_PP_LIST_ CHAOS_PP_LAMBDA(CHAOS_PP_LIST)
02:33:35 <elliott> # include <chaos/preprocessor/algorithm/bubblesort.h>
02:34:02 <elliott> # define CHAOS_IP_BUBBLESORT_3(_, s, pred, _p, type, first, rest, size, pd) \
02:34:03 <elliott> CHAOS_PP_IIF _(_p()(s, pred, CHAOS_PP_ITEM(type, CHAOS_PP_REM first) CHAOS_PP_COMMA() CHAOS_PP_ITEM(type, CHAOS_PP_HEAD(rest)) CHAOS_PP_EXPOSE(pd)))( \
02:34:03 <elliott> CHAOS_PP_EXPR_S _(s)(CHAOS_IP_BUBBLESORT_INDIRECT _(2)( \
02:34:03 <elliott> CHAOS_PP_NEXT(s), pred, _p, type, rest, size, pd \
02:38:07 <olsner> heh, order-pp/doc/ contains a single file that starts by saying "not intended to serve as documentation"
02:38:57 * Sgeo wonders if #esoteric would ever play Diplomacy
02:47:19 <elliott> olsner: i think chaos-pp is a better source for cpp programming
02:47:23 <elliott> it has docs, seemingly, of some sort. kinda
02:47:28 <elliott> Positive arbitrary-precision values are represented as a sequence of base-10 digits. For example, the value +123 is represented as (1)(2)(3). Negative values are represented as a parenthesized sequence of base-10 digits. For example, the value -123 is represented as ((1)(2)(3)).
02:47:33 <elliott> olsner: you can't make this shit up
02:48:37 <elliott> "As such, it assumes a strictly conformant preprocessor in an effort to reduce limitations and provide motivation for vendors to fix their broken preprocessors."
02:48:54 <elliott> "because of this one insane guy's insanity, we have revamped our entire c preprocessor. it is now 3x slower and standards compliant, enjoy"
02:49:11 <elliott> i like how many pages are just "..."
02:49:18 <elliott> A list is a data structure resembling a cons-style singly linked list. A list is either an ellipsis (...), which represents a nil list, or a binary tuple whose first element is an element in the list and whose second element is another list. For example,
02:49:25 <elliott> that ... has to be some clever thing with varargs, i just know it
02:49:47 <elliott> This macro exists only for uniformity with other macros that require indirect invocation.
02:49:52 * elliott notes that that's what that's for to himself
02:50:16 <elliott> olsner: wow, they even maintain C89 compatibility; there's little notes everywhere saying "C99 Specific"
02:50:22 <elliott> olsner: C89 *had no variadic macros*
02:51:23 <elliott> This macro effectively allows CHAOS_PP_LIST_CONS to pass through itself without becoming disabled."
02:51:55 <elliott> probably everything does x##_id() everywhere :D
02:54:37 <elliott> test.h:13:1: error: pasting ")" and "_id" does not give a valid preprocessing token
02:58:15 <elliott> olsner: yay, I have lists working!
03:21:26 <olsner> 10 pages, that's how long the whole preprocessor section of the C++ standard is
03:22:00 <elliott> olsner: gah, i hate how cpp is pretty much DESIGNED to stop you doing this
03:22:15 <elliott> olsner: by figuring out you're making a constructed macro call and stopping it
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03:22:43 <olsner> yeah, it's very much not supposed to be used for metaprogramming
03:24:15 <Sgeo> elliott, lolwhat?
03:24:54 <Sgeo> How is cpp designed to stop you doing it?
03:25:43 <elliott> It's too difficult to explain :P
03:38:11 <elliott> coppro: I've forgotten what C is now, it's all just cpp for me
03:49:16 <elliott> i cannot figure out how to do naturals :D
03:49:20 <elliott> this is the most difficult language ever
03:50:00 <olsner> didn't you just quote how chaos-pp did naturals? :)
03:58:38 * Sgeo would be more interested in how to do reals
03:58:44 <Sgeo> Computers don't have infinite memory
03:59:35 <elliott> olsner: " (The ??= token is a trigraph for #. It is used here to visually disambiguate this inclusion from a normal file inclusion because it is definitely not normal. The %: digraph can also provide such disambiguation. Neither is necessary.)"
03:59:45 <elliott> olsner: also, no, i quoted how it does arbitrary-precision numerals :) and i just want peano!
04:00:04 <elliott> #define CHAOS_PP_ITERATION_PARAMS (1)(10)("file.h")
04:00:04 <elliott> ??=include CHAOS_PP_ITERATE()
04:00:10 <olsner> well, how can that be hard if you already have lists?
04:00:38 <elliott> olsner: i thought i had lists, but just couldn't get map to work
04:00:41 <elliott> i'm starting from the basics now
04:00:53 <olsner> elliott: oh, the ??= makes that *really* clear
04:01:15 <elliott> olsner: that includes file.h 10 times btw :)
04:02:46 <elliott> olsner: chaos-pp/built-docs/roman-numerals.html
04:02:48 <Sgeo> What would happen if you didn't have the (1)
04:02:49 <elliott> olsner: can't make this shit up. really can't
04:03:22 <olsner> elliott: except that obviously they did make it up!
04:03:31 <elliott> stop being dense, you can't just call an interface in the wrong way like that
04:03:46 <Sgeo> I thought it was one number
04:04:22 <Sgeo> Wasn't (5)(4)(0) for example 540?
04:12:37 <elliott> " An active argument is an argument that expands each time that it is scanned by the preprocessor. For example,"
04:12:43 <elliott> Sgeo: that's a separate thing.
04:12:57 <Sgeo> I'm not paying close attention, sorry
04:13:20 <elliott> olsner: " Not all useful active arguments reach a terminal state. The following code produces an infinite list:"
04:13:29 <elliott> olsner: ok, i'm convinced; cpp is probably TC.
04:13:45 <elliott> (ignoring recursion limit)
04:13:56 <Sgeo> Can you eliminate the recursion limit somehow?
04:14:01 <elliott> [[(Because this code is using saturation arithmetic, the value eventually will reach CHAOS_PP_LIMIT_MAG, causing an infinite list of values saturated to CHAOS_PP_LIMIT_MAG from that point on.)]]
04:14:06 <elliott> could always use its arbitrary-precision stuff
04:14:10 <elliott> Sgeo: no. not without modifying cpp(1)
04:15:36 <elliott> olsner: built-docs/binary-literals.html
04:16:03 <elliott> #define BINARY(string) BINARY_S(CHAOS_PP_STATE(), string)
04:16:03 <elliott> #define BINARY_S(s, string) \
04:16:03 <elliott> CHAOS_PP_ARBITRARY_DEMOTE( \
04:16:03 <elliott> CHAOS_PP_EXPR_S(s)(CHAOS_PP_FOLD_LEFT_S( \
04:16:03 <elliott> s, OP, (CHAOS_PP_STRING) string, (0) \
04:16:14 <elliott> CHAOS_PP_ARBITRARY_MUL(x, (2)), (bit) \
04:16:20 <elliott> the final, clear version :P
04:16:41 <elliott> "(The BYTE_ boilerplate can be pre-generated with a small program such as the following: ...)"
04:16:45 <elliott> but that's what the preprocessor is for!
04:18:02 <elliott> olsner: then it goes to arbitrary bases :P
04:18:17 <elliott> night; i'll continue cpping tomorrow :P
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04:49:37 <olsner> what the... ls does case-insensitive sorting nowadays
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04:49:51 * Sgeo is a geostationary platform
04:51:42 <Sgeo> http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=127043
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05:09:02 <olsner> Sgeo: congratulations!
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05:16:34 <zzo38> Do you like the book "Copper, Silver, Gold: An Indestructable Metallic Alloy"?
05:16:47 -!- Sasha has joined.
05:18:58 * Sgeo hasn't heard of it until now
05:22:09 <zzo38> Perhaps you would prefer "Giraffes, Silver, Gold"? Or "Copper, Elephants, Gold"? Or maybe even "Copper, Silver, Baboons"?
05:23:02 <Sgeo> Oh, you're not naming currently existant books
05:25:54 <zzo38> All of these are referenced in Godel, Escher, Bach.
05:29:45 <zzo38> The one which is not mentioned is: "Copper, Silver, Osmium: A Destructable Metallic Alloy".
05:31:26 <zzo38> (But I think that anyone who really pays attention to the book will know what I am referencing by this.)
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09:10:33 <zzo38> Insane people have the best ideas. Sometimes.
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09:30:59 <zzo38> Then do something else tomorrow
09:33:19 <oklopol> "oh shit it's dark, i better get underground"
09:33:37 <oklopol> sry, pressing buttons at random
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09:41:52 <Phantom_Hoover> My brain seems to have gotten a copy of Minecraft installed, which is troubling for a number of reasons.
09:42:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Not least that it implies my head has internet access and *shiver*)a JVM.
09:50:44 <zzo38> Please read and write six books today.
10:01:48 <cheater00> Phantom_Hoover: you just have to parallelize
10:07:27 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
10:18:10 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater00, I can't! There isn't space with this damn JVM here!
10:18:29 <cheater00> obviously you need to acquire more cpu's
10:19:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Tomorrow's headlines: "Madman goes on killing spree, sticks victims' brains to head".
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10:49:18 <fizzie> Is it also a bad sign that I just started a comment in IRC with "t", as in "tHello.", since t is what you use to talk?
10:50:14 <zzo38> fizzie: In my computer it is space-bar
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10:51:00 <fizzie> Yes, but in Minecraft it's 't'.
10:51:06 <zzo38> I have just finished the Season Stacker demo
10:55:47 <oklopol> why do i want to come play with you so much
10:56:07 <fizzie> oklopol: Must be some sort of brain damage: there's nothing *that* exciting happening.
10:56:10 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, not as bad a sign as it was that I was literally playing Minecraft with you guys _in my head_.
10:56:44 <oklopol> i dreamt about minecraft both last night and the night before
10:57:03 <oklopol> although it was this huge campaign and you could make machine guns
10:57:22 <oklopol> like a 100 player army against another
10:57:44 <oklopol> and just as the battle begins, i realize none of us remembered to make any armor
10:58:33 <oklopol> and then we start getting massacred, i'm the only one who flees, and i take cover behind this fence you can see through, and start shooting at this guy with my uzi, but he just won't die, eventually sees me and kills me with this huge minigun
10:59:03 <oklopol> then there was this other dream where my gf had a penis, and i was just really puzzled "that looks like my penis, what's it doing there"
10:59:47 <oklopol> yeah, how could a 100 ppl just completely forget something
11:00:01 <oklopol> too easy, maybe, anyway shower ->
11:02:36 <zzo38> I suggest you play the Season Stacker demo now, too. (It also has music by Purple Motion; although the game can be played fine even without the music, too.)
11:04:12 <zzo38> Literate programming is the program you write is both a computer program and a book, it has the features of both. Now you can write six books and six computer programs all in one day.
11:16:15 <cheater00> i expect you to write a program where every function and every function explanation is a haiku.
11:16:35 <cheater00> the function code, read out loud, should be a haiku.
11:26:07 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: did you mean a dream or just closing your eyes and continuing the game while awake
11:26:21 <zzo38> cheater00: http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/haifu.html
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11:32:15 <cheater00> zzo38: yeah, i've seen that. except it's not LP
11:32:56 <cheater00> zzo38: and it isn't written by you
11:33:06 <zzo38> cheater00: Yes, you are right about those things.
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12:26:40 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, incidentally, you like spacey sandboxes with no plot or aims to speak of, yes?
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13:43:11 <oklopol> no, i don't really play games
13:44:25 <oklopol> usually i watch tv series or do math, the former if i want to give my brain a rest, the latter if i want to use it. games are a middle road, and i just do extremes.
13:45:04 <oklopol> although lately i've been wanting to program stuff
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13:46:06 <zzo38> Program a game about a TV series involving math.
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13:46:30 <oklopol> a game involving math would be great
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13:46:41 <oklopol> but that doesn't sound likely
13:48:12 <zzo38> Make a game that you have to prevent all the magnets from touching each other
13:57:53 <zzo38> Do you know much about ANSI terminal escape codes and those standards? I am making a program converting between MZM files and ANSI codes files.
14:02:14 <olsner> oh, I always thought the standard came from standardizing the vt100 terminals' codes, but turns out it was the other way around
14:06:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, timed out too?
14:06:46 <fizzie> Though haven't tried to say anything.
14:06:53 <fizzie> Okay, now it disconnecteded.
14:07:24 <olsner> zzo38: the terminal escape codes are really simple though, the wikipedia page probably has all you need
14:11:17 <zzo38> OK, but what about things such as wrapping, CR/LF pair, control codes special use by some terminals (such as ENQ), and so on?
14:18:26 <olsner> hmm, right, it probably gets tricky once you expose it to reality and try to actually use it
14:18:53 <olsner> sounds like you need to find a portable subset that works on everything you want to support
14:24:25 <fizzie> Only you can start forest fires.
14:34:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it just me, or is the Banach-Tarski Paradox nothing of the sort?
14:34:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, it doesn't imply a contradiction or anything, it's just weird.
14:36:43 <olsner> "The reason the Banach–Tarski theorem is called a paradox is because it contradicts basic geometric intuition."
14:38:52 <oklopol> arbitrary subsets of reals in no way model our intuition of geometry
14:39:26 <oklopol> that's like saying if you think addition corresponds to lines being parallel, 1+1=2 contradicts basic geometric intuition
14:39:38 <oklopol> because parallelism is clearly idempotent
14:40:39 <olsner> "zomg, infinite balls!" contradicts basic geometric intuition
14:43:51 <olsner> if you can split one ball into two of the same size, you can repeat the process and get as many balls as you like
14:44:08 <olsner> and that's not something you're supposed to be able to do, intuitively
14:44:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, FWIW the Banach-Tarski Paradox only works in ZFC in the first place, so it's not even a geometrical theorem.
14:46:41 <Phantom_Hoover> The proof is much simpler than it would appear, barring some little details.
15:16:51 <cheater00> oklopol: let's make a game based on the monster group
15:17:03 <cheater00> the elements of the group are fields
15:17:11 <zzo38> Do you think you can fit the game into the computer?
15:17:13 <cheater00> you start out with some fields, enemy starts out with some fields
15:17:57 <cheater00> when two pieces touch, they add/multiply/whatever, and the attacker gets his piece on the resulting field
15:17:59 <zzo38> And if it is card game, do you think you can shuffle the cards?
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15:18:40 <cheater00> the aim is to place pieces in some geometric fashion, like say halma or 5 in line
15:18:55 <zzo38> O, that's how the game works.
15:19:45 <cheater00> it could be an educational tool to facilitate building intuition about the monster group.
15:24:45 <zzo38> What are the rules for the elements of the monster group, anyways?
15:25:16 <oklopol> oh it was the biggest sporadic group (finite, but not in one of the major infinite classes of them)?
15:25:24 <oklopol> i could just check this i guess
15:25:38 <zzo38> I think that is called an exceptional group?
15:25:50 <oklopol> i think it's called a sporadic group
15:29:34 <oklopol> the forest fire i mentioned hours ago
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15:29:55 <zzo38> Call the police^Wfire department
15:30:29 <zzo38> And then call yourself
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15:34:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: so uh wrt. minecraft addiction
15:34:48 <elliott> a few days before all this mess i actually draemed in minecraft
15:34:52 <zzo38> Invent a game called "Quixotic Quizzical Jazz"?
15:34:56 <elliott> including the pause screen
15:35:05 <elliott> (when i walked into a dark area and i think i wasn't on peaceful)
15:35:09 <elliott> (so i could calm down before running out)
15:35:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i finally understand WoW players :D
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16:02:56 <oklopol> erm, i filled a 100x100 valley with candles and built a wall around it, i saw no monsters during the night, but the green exploders now attack me there during the day D:
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16:12:15 <elliott> oklopol: if you place a door from the outside (not the inside)
16:12:23 <elliott> oklopol: then you can run up to your door and slash things!
16:12:30 <elliott> this is of ... limited utility imo but Vorpal swears by it
16:13:13 <oklopol> what i want to know is if there's a nice way to make something that destroys attacking enemies automatically
16:13:21 <oklopol> if they try to approach my valley
16:13:38 <oklopol> can you make ones that are reusable
16:13:39 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Tutorials/Traps or whatever
16:14:07 <elliott> * Burning Netherstone/Cactus trap
16:14:07 <elliott> A trap made with Netherstone and Cacti.
16:14:07 <elliott> A variant of the aforementioned trap. Mobs will be lit on fire, then hit the cactus and usually jump back, leaving the drops safe, and an effective barrier, especially against spiders. This requires a cactus farm, as it requires lots and lots of it to be effective.
16:14:08 <elliott> Although lengthy and very difficult to build, the payoff is fantastic. A single location on the map has been discovered to cause the most mobs to spawn. To find the location use this tutorial: [2] After finding this location, construct a huge tower, which height depends on how much time you have on your hands, and how many mob drops you want. The contraption drags mobs into a grinder and drops the loot into your base. To build the tower,
16:14:21 <elliott> oklopol: also you might want to get a bow to shoot them from the top or something i guess
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16:17:59 <elliott> oklopol: also SCREENSHOT THAT HO
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16:22:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Minecraft overdose is now a problem which MUST BE MONITORED
16:25:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I just tried to click my now-nonexistent Minecraft task bar entry. :P
16:26:40 <elliott> Gregor: I've decided that cpp is probably TC, by the wa.y
16:26:47 <elliott> Ignoring the recursion limit.
16:27:05 <Gregor> It's all well and good to DECIDE that, I want some EVIDENCE.
16:28:04 <elliott> Gregor: I've got yer evidence right here: "Not all useful active arguments reach a terminal state. The following code produces an infinite list:"
16:28:21 <elliott> Gregor: It produces a lazy list of every natural number (well, using their "saturation arithmetic", but it could easily be modified to use their bignums).
16:28:30 <elliott> Gregor: Also, there's a bubblesort.
16:28:48 <elliott> Gregor: Also, that functional language is *really* convincing.
16:29:04 <elliott> Gregor: (The most WTF thing is how "practical" and integrated with cpp it is for actual code generation :P)
16:29:16 <elliott> Gregor: cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@chaos-pp.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/chaos-pp login
16:29:19 <elliott> cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@chaos-pp.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/chaos-pp co -P chaos-pp
16:29:21 <elliott> cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@chaos-pp.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/chaos-pp co -P order-pp
16:29:32 <elliott> Gregor: chaos-pp/built-docs has .htmls that are mostly unwritten, but some of them are ... very enlightening.
16:29:46 <elliott> Gregor: order-pp/examples are literate cpp/LaTeX programs. (Seriously.)
16:29:57 <elliott> Gregor: They are also very helpful in understanding ... these abominations.
16:30:53 <elliott> Gregor: As far as I'm concerned, it's at the level where it would have to try really hard to not be TC. :P
16:31:08 <Gregor> How did you find this? :P
16:31:50 <elliott> Gregor: Well, I knew about it earlier, and it's what set me off thinking about this... The specific inspiration was:
16:31:54 <elliott> 03:20:53 <fizzie> Heh, C preprocessor (ab)use: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/msg/082ffefaaed3b450
16:31:54 <elliott> 03:21:52 <fizzie> I think Chaos has been mentioned here earlier, but still.
16:32:05 <elliott> Gregor: i.e. bignum fibonacci in cpp, using chaos-pp.
16:32:23 <elliott> Gregor: But I'd heard of it before -- I forget how. Anyway, enjoy! (Note: The .h files are completely useless. Not only are they undocumented, but they are COMPLETELY INCOMPREHENSIBLE.)
16:32:55 <elliott> Gregor: Did I mention chaos-pp has polymorphic functions operating on any type of sequence? X-P
16:33:16 <elliott> Gregor: They skipped about five stages in language design and went straight from cpp to... that.
16:34:54 <elliott> [[ >> I would suggest that in the next release of the ISO Standard, it is
16:34:54 <elliott> >> decried that the preprocessor shall be run repeatedly. In fact it shall
16:34:54 <elliott> >> be run n times until the nth run does not change the source file.
16:34:54 <elliott> > Man I _really_ disagree with this. "Powerful" in this case means
16:34:55 <elliott> If we take the above spec as literal, it turns out that there are virtually
16:34:57 <elliott> no programs which would be affected by it.
16:34:59 <elliott> > Please, C standards people, don't do it!
16:35:01 <elliott> I am pretty sure that the entire C standards community is populated by
16:35:02 <elliott> people who are legally allowed to dress themselves, and that as such,
16:35:05 <elliott> there is no risk of any of sandeep's recent proposals being accepted.]]
16:37:27 <Gregor> lawl @ the last bit :P
16:38:22 <elliott> Gregor: Now you've got me inventing the Lambda Preprocessor.
16:38:41 <elliott> # succ := (#\n f x -> f(n(f, x)))
16:40:02 <elliott> "Wet-type earwax fluoresces weakly under ultraviolet light." --Wikipedia photo caption
16:42:03 <elliott> Gregor: Recursion is like the hardest thing in cpp EVER ;_;
16:44:14 <elliott> Gregor: What kind of a useless programmer am I? I can't even get this right!
16:45:19 <Gregor> Maybe you should KILL YOURSELF.
16:45:31 <Gregor> ... but first finish this.
16:46:36 <elliott> Gregor: I seriously plan to write a brainfuck interpreter in cpp.
16:46:41 <elliott> Gregor: (SKI first though, probably.)
16:46:53 <Gregor> SKI kinda makes sense.
16:47:07 <Gregor> I tried to type "SDKI" there because I can't type "SK" in capitals without a 'D' there.
16:47:51 <elliott> Gregor has been sucked into the whirlpool of practical programming :P
16:48:00 <elliott> Gregor: I could just implement SKI as three simple functions in Order, but THAT WOULD BE CHEATING.
16:51:44 <oklopol> this mountain is standing in the way of progress
16:52:04 <oklopol> goodbye my precious shovel collection.
16:52:53 <elliott> oklopol: please screenshot that 100x100 thing
16:56:28 <elliott> oklopol: or, you know, else
17:04:30 <elliott> augur: he doesn't love you anu more
17:05:17 <augur> better than if it were CSPAN
17:05:24 <Phantom_Hoover> What the hell do I do with the little .zip you get that makes it \usepackageable?
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17:07:21 <augur> then you should get a .tex file
17:07:31 <augur> chris barker was here the other day :D
17:07:40 <augur> not in the channel, i mean here at UMD
17:08:42 <augur> assuming this isnt some janky package.
17:10:16 <elliott> for one, tex packages aren't .tex files
17:10:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ctan has documentation on this; you unpack the directory in the tex root
17:10:28 <augur> oh theyre .scljdfjk files
17:10:31 <elliott> there's a command to find that
17:10:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/Packages/Installing_Extra_Packages
17:10:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'd just install texlive-full
17:10:57 <elliott> or whatever the package is
17:11:02 <elliott> that's like 99% of everything you ever need :P
17:11:21 <augur> thats what they are
17:11:31 <augur> anyway, eitherway, you have to unpack the zip
17:11:36 <augur> then you usepackage{foo.sty}
17:11:47 <elliott> augur: for one, you don't include the .sty
17:11:48 <augur> installing them permanently is another issue
17:11:52 <elliott> augur: for two, he wants to install them, not use them like that.
17:16:08 <oklopol> elliott: oh it's not interesting yet, there were only two sides i had to wall, and the lighting is rather sparse
17:16:15 <oklopol> i can screenshot when i'm finished
17:16:22 <elliott> oklopol: 100x100 is still rather huge :P
17:16:25 <elliott> oklopol: have you seen my gigantic staircase
17:16:42 <elliott> oklopol: I've built a staircase from almost-level-0 (bedrock) to the very top of the map
17:16:55 <elliott> oklopol: and another one from sea level to the top of the map; after that there's a drop down to bedrock where the next staircase starts, wrapping around the other one
17:17:28 <elliott> oklopol: i've made a hole at the end of the one from the bedrock and i'm going to make another underground staircase, meeting up with the one at sea level
17:17:40 <elliott> oklopol: it's made out of cobblestone and is therefore fucking gigantic and ugly and grey, it's awesome
17:17:45 <elliott> you can see it from ages away
17:18:47 <oklopol> i was thinking i'd make my world completely enemy inaccessible
17:18:57 <oklopol> well, probably not the whole infinite world, but this part of the island
17:23:10 <elliott> oklopol: here's what'll blow yer mind
17:23:24 <elliott> oklopol: the map isn't actually infinite.
17:23:51 <elliott> oklopol: the maximum is around eight times the surface area of the earth
17:23:55 <elliott> oklopol: (which would take 250 petabytes to store)
17:24:03 <elliott> oklopol: beacuse of coordinate bit-width or whatever
17:24:10 <elliott> oklopol: well what i'm saying is
17:24:14 <elliott> oklopol: go to the edges and BUILD
17:24:19 <elliott> protect the whole thing :P
17:24:39 <elliott> oklopol: probably [crash] :P
17:24:42 <elliott> oklopol: if it wraps around
17:24:52 <elliott> oklopol: then the world is an INFINITE REPETITION OF THE SAME 4096 MILLION SQUARE KILOMETRE area :D
17:25:18 <Phantom_Hoover> You fool! You can't have a wraparound world with flat topology!
17:25:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's magic
17:26:30 <oklopol> fucking farm animals mocking my 7 meter high wall by jumping on it
17:27:04 <augur> wtf are you playing
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17:28:44 <elliott> oklopol: btw you'll need a ceiling, since animals spawn high in the air
17:28:59 <eafkuor> I invented a stupid esoteric language and wrote a Java interpreter
17:29:00 <oklopol> so enemies don't die if they fall?
17:29:10 <elliott> oklopol: they do but only if they fall really far it hink
17:29:13 <elliott> oklopol: also chickens don't
17:29:16 <eafkuor> I was wondering if I should directly create a page on esolang or not
17:29:30 <elliott> oklopol: in ineiros' pit that went right down to slightly above bedrock, he got bacon all the time from cows dying due to the fall, but chickens survived :D
17:29:43 <elliott> eafkuor: we can never have enough stupid languages.
17:31:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yes we do!
17:31:28 <Phantom_Hoover> What was the last stupid language we made on this channel?
17:32:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Brainfuck/index.php
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17:33:34 <eafkuor> you consider befunge stupid?
17:34:36 <Phantom_Hoover> No, the language elliott made was called Befunge/index.php
17:35:08 <elliott> eafkuor: spammers had been attacking a page called Talk:Befunge/index.php for no apparent reason
17:35:24 <elliott> ais523 protected it to stop them, noting that it could be unlocked in the unlikely event that someone created a language named that
17:35:48 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge/index.php
17:36:16 <elliott> (oh, and it turns out it's both TC and not: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Befunge/index.php)
17:36:17 <eafkuor> have you written an interpreter?
17:36:41 <elliott> eafkuor: no, I'm not quite good enough at deluding myself to believe that it would be a worthwhile or fun use of my time :)
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17:37:29 <oklopol> elliott: i have to admit that is one stupid language
17:37:37 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it's just a matter of gluing a BF interpreter to a Befunge one.
17:37:54 <elliott> oklopol: yeah, but at least it's ambiguously TC
17:38:00 <elliott> oklopol: depending on your definition of TC, and everyone has their own
17:38:25 <oklopol> well, i don't have even one
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17:46:54 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, the world needs a language which is written completely in TeX.
17:47:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Epigram 1 was getting there, but Epigram 2 lost the cool syntax.
17:49:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that makes no sense :P
17:49:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: also, epigram 2 has the cool syntax
17:49:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: see the papers
17:49:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the actual syntax is ascii, and always has been
17:49:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought it only had that half-finished, basic plaintext syntax.
17:49:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: but it's rendered in that cute form
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18:10:22 <oklopol> mining down a mountain is more work than i'd hoped
18:13:29 <oklopol> what can you do about the green exploders, is shooting the only way to deal with them, since sunlight doesn't seem to kill them
18:14:34 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Creeper
18:14:52 <elliott> oklopol: it has a bit of info there
18:15:55 <eafkuor> Hey guys, I'm writing the esolang page for my language
18:16:16 <eafkuor> can you suggest a good website to upload the interpreter?
18:16:40 <eafkuor> or should I just make a website?
18:17:39 <elliott> eafkuor: Well, if the interpreter is just one file, you can put it on the wiki.
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18:17:53 <elliott> For instance, User:Eafkuor/Languagename_interpreter, then just do
18:18:00 <elliott> <pre><nowiki>...the interpreter...</nowiki></pre>
18:18:08 <elliott> And you can put stuff above that to document the interpreter.
18:18:13 <elliott> Then just link that from the esolang's page.
18:18:49 <eafkuor> It's just a 64Kb jar file so I won't waste too much space on the server ;)
18:19:08 <zzo38> eafkuor: You can post only text files in there
18:19:29 <eafkuor> allright i'll upload it somewhere else
18:19:47 <elliott> eafkuor: please give source code
18:20:50 <eafkuor> and a jpg packed into the jar
18:20:54 <Phantom_Hoover> eafkuor, please. There's no reason whatsoever not to release the source.
18:21:19 <eafkuor> ok sure, it's not that I don't want to! It's just that it's 5 classes
18:21:21 <zzo38> The .jar file is like a ZIP file, so you can include the source-codes inside of the .jar file if you want to do so
18:21:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh, give him a rest
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18:22:18 <eafkuor> guys my first language is not english don't bash me if I look retarded;)
18:22:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You're still hounding him.
18:22:52 <eafkuor> I'm having enough trouble already writing a decent esolang page
18:23:10 <zzo38> (Depending on how you created the .jar file and what computer you use and the other programs you use with it; but this should work at least: Rename the .jar file to .zip and then add the .java source files and then rename back to .jar)
18:23:13 <elliott> we can fix it up afterwards
18:23:21 <elliott> olsner: so i got recursion working
18:23:29 <elliott> #define expand(...) __VA_ARGS__
18:23:29 <elliott> #define A(x) if(x, okay, defer(A_id())(not(x)))
18:23:34 <elliott> olsner: A(true) = okay, A(false) = okay
18:24:13 <elliott> coppro hates me for making cpp beautiful
18:24:40 <olsner> elliott: how are if, okay, A_id and not defined?
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18:25:18 <elliott> #define if_(c, x, y) c##_id()(x, y)
18:25:18 <elliott> #define if(c, x, y) if_(c, x, y)
18:25:23 <elliott> #define not(x) if(x, false, true)
18:25:30 <elliott> really i should just define _id() for everything, like chaos-pp
18:26:05 <elliott> why did it stop working ;__;
18:26:22 <elliott> eafkuor: this is C. in fact it's not even C
18:26:25 <elliott> it's just the C preprocessor
18:28:10 <elliott> and it worked a second ago wtf :)
18:28:32 <elliott> i wonder if i just forgot to save before testing
18:32:19 <eafkuor> elliott, if you want to take a look at my page to check for English errors.. :D
18:32:39 <eafkuor> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/BAM128
18:33:50 <elliott> eafkuor: I made a few tweaks, but it looks good to me.
18:34:35 <eafkuor> I hope it's understandable because the rules are not as simple as brainfuck's
18:34:48 <elliott> it looks understandable to me
18:35:18 <elliott> eafkuor: we are quite good at understanding nonsense: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge :)
18:35:45 <eafkuor> oh yes, I was scared when I checked malbolge
18:36:01 <eafkuor> the inventor must have been on drugs
18:39:12 <elliott> i blame olsner for breaking my prorgam
18:39:40 <olsner> i blame elliott for writing it in the first place
18:39:50 <elliott> olsner: it's all your fault :)
18:40:30 <olsner> elliott: nope, it is entirely your fault
18:48:59 <olsner> in soviet russia, russians blame you
18:49:19 <olsner> this is now Phantom_Hoover's fault
18:57:53 <eafkuor> I uploaded the interpreter on dropbox
18:58:34 <eafkuor> I don't think I was a totally bad idea, the file contains the interpreter, the source code and 3 example programs
19:06:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I would just like to say that Firefox's default configuration does not allow one to force the browser to access a webpage reported as an attack site.
19:06:37 <elliott> "Ignore this warning" -> "Get me out of here!" or "This isn't an attack site..."; the latter just gives you a page explaining what malware is and the like.
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19:17:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.antipixel.com/blog/archives/2002/10/22/steal_these_buttons.html
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19:21:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, it works *now*.
19:21:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Seems to block the CSS.
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19:57:35 <Vorpal> ineiros, mind doing new maps? Seems like no one is playing atm
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20:05:27 <Vorpal> [download] 11.1% of 120.67M at 44.01k/s ETA 41:37
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20:06:52 <oklopol> does it take too long to make one?
20:07:08 <Phantom_Hoover> He has about 6 already in place in a room in the bunker.
20:08:53 <fizzie> Uh, well. Sure, you can use one, but they're made of cobblestone, you know. You can build any number of your own.
20:09:08 <fizzie> You're not supposed to be spending time in the bunker, you know.
20:09:21 <oklopol> i have about 3000 cobblestone atm
20:09:45 <oklopol> well okay not really, but anyway one small container
20:09:46 <fizzie> Going to take the skyway to Mt. Hoover or what?
20:10:04 <fizzie> I have a large box full of it in a single-player game: stopped collecting when it got full.
20:10:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes. Well, we'll probably get them halfway there then get bored.
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20:34:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what's the relevance of 8:30
20:35:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: then why did you remark on it :P
20:35:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm just trying to keep Minecraft down so that it doesn't infect my brain.
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20:35:42 <Phantom_Hoover> You lay the skyway, I'll lay the blocks when next I connect; that could be a while, though.
20:35:46 <fizzie> Anyway, the spacing I used seems to be more like 16 or so.
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21:16:27 <cheater00> Q. How many Prolog programmers does it take to change a light bulb?
21:18:58 <elliott> olsner: (You should have said "tell me some prolog jokes".)
21:19:40 <oklopol> was that another prolog joke
21:19:59 <oklopol> hmm, it seems i'm dumber than usual today
21:20:15 <oklopol> or it is something interpreters say
21:21:03 <elliott> ?- prolog_joke(X), funny(X).
21:21:14 <elliott> i.e. there are a bunch of prolog jokes, and none of them are funny
21:21:21 <elliott> oklopol: so let's just pretend the X = lines don't exist because they're predicates.
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21:22:34 <oklopol> i'm still not sure i get it :D
21:23:17 <oklopol> your "Yes" could've been a response to "tell me some prolog jokes", because the things before it wouldn't've been worth saying?
21:26:16 <elliott> <olsner> Tell me some prolog jokes. (?- prolog_joke(X).)
21:26:27 <elliott> i.e. it is true that prolog_joke(X).
21:26:38 <elliott> because you can substitute, e.g., X = "<olsner> Tell me some prolog jokes. (?- prolog_joke(X).) <me, interpreter> Yes."
21:26:47 <elliott> and thus prolog_joke("<olsner> Tell me some prolog jokes. (?- prolog_joke(X).) <me, interpreter> Yes.") is true
21:26:51 <elliott> ergo prolog_joke(X) is true
21:26:55 <elliott> and the interpreter conveys this with "Yes."
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21:42:57 <elliott> oklopol is now feeling stupid
21:43:43 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but if you use a variable in the predicate, it should still say what it equals even if it's Yes.
21:44:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No; Prolog is based on predicates with boolean results.
21:44:05 <elliott> Printing the possible values of X is just an extra diagnostic.
21:44:12 <elliott> The only *result*, at the top level, is "Yes."
21:44:26 <Phantom_Hoover> A diagnostic that's always printed when you use ?- IIRC.
21:47:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes it is.
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21:53:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I love the way DMM's blog is basically IWC's annotations.
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22:04:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what was that law that said you should be conservative in what you do but liberal in what you accept?
22:06:54 <olsner> being liberal in what you accept is what has made the web what it is today
22:07:21 <olsner> the web as in html, http, and all the related craptastica
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22:16:20 <elliott> olsner: yes, a huge source of useful and amusing information
22:16:51 <elliott> olsner: as soon as you add an even vaguely dynamically-generated page, violating Postel's law equates to assuming people always write completely *perfect* progarms
22:17:03 <elliott> most programs when they have a bug, one part of the program doesn't work, but the rest does
22:17:11 <elliott> if you're strict, and refuse to load any web page with invalidity,
22:17:17 <elliott> that's like making the whole program not work because of a single bug
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22:40:51 <elliott> Vorpal: you've were on the server mere minutes before me.
22:41:21 <Vorpal> elliott, hours. not minutes
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00:46:53 <elliott> "On runtime this created a small, 122 byte x86 program based upon the benchmark bytecode which clocked in at an average speed of 0.518 secs. This was only around twice as slow as the control so I was fairly confident at this point.
00:46:55 <elliott> I slickly inquired into what Mat was working on, and he informed me he was writing his bytecode interpreter in Visual Basic.NET. I was a bit skeptical at first, considering he did not know Visual Basic, but was reassured he wasn't joking."
00:47:22 <elliott> "[...] I was forced to conclude that Visual Basic is faster then Assembly, that I'm a horrible coder, and Mat wins."
00:48:14 <elliott> coppro: http://byteworm.com/2010/11/21/the-fastest-vm-bytecode-interpreter/
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01:09:34 <Ilari> HAH... IPv4 depletion estimates: Lagerholm: February 13th 2011 (unfortunately, not friday), Houston: October 30th 2030....
01:09:47 <Ilari> (IANA depletion to be more accurate)
01:12:29 <elliott> Ilari: I don't quite understand. What are those two estimates?
01:12:38 <elliott> Obviously the latter one is crazy.
01:14:51 <Ilari> Estimates from two different models. Those models are named after those who developed them... And I think there's more such estimates...
01:15:23 <elliott> Ilari: Houston seems a bit optimistic.
01:15:50 <Ilari> It seems that October 30th 2030 is some sort of horizon for that model, because it predicts RIR exhaustion for the same day (which is obviously absurd).
01:16:48 <Ilari> Yeah... The difference nowadays (discounting insane results) is something like 20 days, with Houston being the more optimistic one...
01:18:28 <Ilari> It was about 50 days before that AFRINIC surprise allocation (before that models predicted May-July, but then jumped to February-March).
01:20:09 <elliott> Ilari: switching to an ipv6 provider soon is a good idea, huh :)
01:20:55 <Ilari> Heh... I should maybe call tech support (or something) and ask them (not that I expect them to have any clue). :-)
01:21:05 <zzo38> Will cjb.net support IPv6 DNS?
01:21:18 <elliott> zzo38: I very much doubt it, since cjb.net is basically a relic of the early 2000s.
01:21:25 <elliott> Ilari: I think the only .fi ISP with IPv6 is Nebula.
01:21:47 <elliott> Ilari: Indeed, according to http://www.sixxs.net/faq/connectivity/?faq=native&country=fi (if you trust SixXs; I wouldn't. :p)
01:22:00 <coppro> (you are welcome that I let you know I didn't know that)
01:22:51 <Ilari> And IIRC, at least some time ago Nebula had fucked up IPv6.
01:22:54 <elliott> coppro: http://www.google.com/search?q=RIR
01:23:04 <elliott> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Internet_registry)
01:23:26 <elliott> Ilari: LACNIC ought to rename to LACONIC. :)
01:24:27 <Ilari> Reserving the <prefix>::1 for themselves, which apparently breaks about everything in IPv6.
01:25:49 <coppro> Ilari: yeah, that would fuck everything up hardcore
01:26:22 <elliott> i still think we need to hold an ipv4 depletion party
01:26:31 <elliott> have a countdown to the very last allocation ever
01:26:40 <elliott> Ten! Nine! Eight! Se-- oh, look, there it goes. OH GOD EVERYTHING IS BREAKING
01:26:48 <Ilari> I don't know the exact reason why reserving that address really fucks things up...
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01:32:54 <Ilari> It is quite difficult to search for more information about that... Google brings up all sorts of non-relevant links.
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02:02:27 <coppro> Ilari: Reserving the last address doesn't fuck things up
02:02:44 <coppro> however, it's the point at which people go "oh, crap, there might, y'know, be a problem with not switching to IPv6"
02:03:07 <Ilari> Also, I found the reason why it fucks things up.
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03:10:09 <zzo38> Count how many things you can find wrong with this: http://www.studiohunty.com/horrible/vid2.jpg
03:11:15 <zzo38> I can find many things wrong with it.
03:12:14 <coppro> there's got to be more than 45 billion things wrong with it
03:12:18 <coppro> and there's no numbers that big
03:13:06 <zzo38> One thing is the contradictory durations (neither of which is correct).
03:13:54 <zzo38> (At least I think neither duration is correct)
03:14:26 <zzo38> And did you notice all the typographical errors?
03:16:16 <zzo38> (I just checked the actual movie data (of the movie that was actually in there; the refering page indicates those things), in fact both durations on the box are incorrect.)
03:22:01 <Gregor> "And tribulations with relationships."
03:22:08 <Gregor> ^^^ Best - phrase - ever.
03:24:08 <Gregor> Oh hey, it has Eng lish, Eng lish and Francais.
03:44:58 <coppro> anyone want a fun calculus problem?
03:47:02 <zzo38> Season Stacker was abandoned four years ago, there is no full version and no source-codes available.
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04:01:13 <Ilari> Hah... This forum has an employee of one ISP essentially saying that IPv6 in their core network is in production use. And that was back in 2005. Apparently not much has happened since...
04:05:37 <Ilari> Hmm... Apparently I am using ISP 6to4 gateway for outgoing traffic. At least IPv6 traceroutes have addresses in ISP prefix range.
04:07:13 <Ilari> Which means they have IPv6 connectivity (I can also see the IPv6 peerings using "looking glass"). And their core network presumably has IPv6 in production use...
04:08:59 <Ilari> So pretty typical for an ISP... Core network is IPv6 enabled but the distribution networks and last mile links aren't.
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05:49:05 <Gregor> Wow, even when XKCD is made by guests, it sucks.
05:49:56 <oklopol> well, it's possible those guests where homosexual
05:50:10 <Gregor> It does not suck in the good way.
05:50:13 <coppro> I thought this xkcd was amusing
05:50:19 <oklopol> then maybe i should read it
05:53:17 <oklopol> i don't know if that was good
05:55:49 <oklopol> http://www.xkcd.com/821/ some of these were definitely good those
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06:51:21 <Gregor> Bach! Activate the magic flute and teleport us home! Wagner's right behind me on his ring cycle!
06:52:49 <Gregor> Not every day you see a (not-)classical music slash Mario Bros 3 co-reference :P
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13:16:48 <Ilari> Hah: "The 'crazy bad' terminology – which was at odds with the normally sober and scientific language of the Twitter account – appeared to have been a joke embedded in the embassy's monitoring program and triggered by a reading that was off the normal scale."
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14:08:21 <elliott> 06:34:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it just me, or is the Banach-Tarski Paradox nothing of the sort?
14:08:21 <elliott> 06:34:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, it doesn't imply a contradiction or anything, it's just weird.
14:10:32 <elliott> 13:53:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I love the way DMM's blog is basically IWC's annotations.
14:11:08 <elliott> 18:02:27 <coppro> Ilari: Reserving the last address doesn't fuck things up
14:11:09 <elliott> 18:02:44 <coppro> however, it's the point at which people go "oh, crap, there might, y'know, be a problem with not switching to IPv6"
14:11:13 <elliott> coppro: he meant reserving <prefix>::1, duh
14:11:18 <elliott> coppro: he knows all about ipv4 depletion :p
14:17:08 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: huh, you're online twice
14:19:48 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: I like how you're using your clan nick as an alternate nickname
14:20:23 <elliott> 21:49:05 <Gregor> Wow, even when XKCD is made by guests, it sucks.
14:20:26 <ais523\unfoog> it's not really an alternate; this is the web IRC client, I typed it in by hand
14:20:29 <elliott> Gregor: to be fair, it *was* a parody
14:21:00 <ais523\unfoog> "alternate nick" to me means the nick your IRC client picks when your main one's already in use
14:24:50 <Vorpal> <elliott> coppro: he meant reserving <prefix>::1, duh <-- why would anyone do that?
14:25:04 <Vorpal> it is commonly used for the router though
14:25:04 <elliott> Vorpal: Nebula, and who knows
14:25:14 <elliott> ais523: it also means nick that is alternate
14:25:19 <elliott> ais523: i.e. nick used when you don't have your main nick
14:25:20 <Vorpal> also argh this connection sucks
14:25:36 <Vorpal> elliott, mine? no, bad wlan
14:25:48 <elliott> no, i answered your question with a question.
14:25:54 <Vorpal> elliott, nebula is an ISP?
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14:26:24 * magari finds a chair and takes a seat
14:26:32 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.nebula.fi/
14:26:36 <elliott> magari: the chairs are made of lava
14:26:38 <Vorpal> elliott, <Vorpal> gah, dns just died
14:26:58 <elliott> Vorpal: http://217.30.180.1/
14:27:13 <elliott> magari: standard disclaimer: this is about esoteric programming languages (well, er, sometimes), not esoterick magick and all that lark
14:27:31 <Vorpal> elliott, hm and that company is doing something strange to <prefix>::1 ?
14:27:42 <elliott> Vorpal: reserving it for themselves, at least as of a while ago.
14:27:52 <elliott> magari: you have no idea how many people we get expecting the latter.
14:28:09 <elliott> right, well, it's not always that clear :D
14:28:24 <Vorpal> elliott, err. Surely not officially accepted by IANA?
14:28:32 <Vorpal> elliott, also for all prefixes or what?
14:28:38 <magari> if I was looking for the latter I would probably be on a different network
14:28:44 <elliott> magari: actually, you have no idea how many people come in here expecting esoteric languages and then get driven away by all the hundreds and billions of lines of offtopicness :)
14:28:48 <elliott> magari: yeah, but they don't tend to be that smart
14:29:17 <magari> im actually just perusing around
14:29:21 <magari> looking for an old friend
14:29:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: Nebula is just numbering their gateway as <prefix>::1 for all the <prefix>/64's they give out to their users.
14:30:14 <fizzie> I don't think they really need anyone's permission for that.
14:30:22 <fizzie> It's their address space, after all.
14:30:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, and makes certain sense for routing
14:30:42 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/esoteric$ grep -r Aali .
14:30:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: It is native, yes.
14:31:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, okay, not *quite* as much sense then
14:31:41 <Vorpal> for something like AYIA tunneling it would be perfect sense
14:31:43 <fizzie> It might be arguably be more elegant to have their router to do the usual EUI-64 MAC-based auto-addressing, since (IIRC) they do send out the usual ICMPv6 router advertisements and so.
14:31:56 <fizzie> Anyway, at least it's easy to remember what to ping6 when things don't work.
14:32:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, ping6 ipv6.google.com ?
14:32:16 <magari> doubt he is still around here, but im gunna hang for a while and find out
14:32:36 <Vorpal> elliott, ::1 = localhost
14:32:44 <Vorpal> so that wouldn't work very well
14:33:02 <fizzie> Their router is closer and in the same net, though. Might well work even when routing outside doesn't.
14:33:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, true. You have to remember your prefix though
14:34:04 <fizzie> That's true; and in the case autoconfiguration works so well that the prefix gets configured, it's pretty likely that the default-route would too. But still.
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14:46:25 <ais523\unfoog> statistically speaking, the next student I have to mark won't turn up
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14:47:52 <oklopol> how many times out of hundred has he attended this particular meeting that's about to happen?
14:48:05 <oklopol> and how many times has he bailed
14:48:53 <oklopol> nono i'm assuming you are using the statistics of this particular meeting at this particular moment.
14:48:55 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: i suggest dancing around loudly
14:49:04 <elliott> <oklopol> nono i'm assuming you are using the statistics of this particular meeting at this particular moment.
14:49:13 <ais523\unfoog> oklopol: oh right, well he isn't here instantaneously
14:49:40 <coppro> http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic.html is awesome
14:49:41 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: btw, you didn't submit an answer to the exercise I set for this week
14:49:46 <ais523\unfoog> so I don't see how I can give you any marks for it
14:49:58 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: i... what exercise :(
14:50:13 <oklopol> do you give online courses available for anyone
14:50:16 <elliott> coppro: oh god it's like nationstates! PLAYING NOW
14:50:17 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: I assume the reason is that you aren't on my course
14:50:22 <coppro> elliott: BUT WITH REAL DOLLARS
14:50:35 <elliott> coppro: hey it tries to manipulate me into checking the first box!
14:50:38 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: i didn't know about your course!
14:50:47 <coppro> elliott: They should have every Congressman play this game
14:50:49 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: then why did you assume you had a meeting with me about it?
14:50:54 <oklopol> ais523\unfoog: it's unfair to give less points to people who didn't know about the course
14:50:57 <coppro> and then pick all the most popular options and implement them
14:51:08 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: i... guess because you're having a meeting with all the others
14:51:19 <ais523\unfoog> oklopol: of course not, knowing about the existence of the course is one of the implied course objectives
14:51:22 <elliott> <coppro> and then pick all the most popular options and implement them
14:51:25 <elliott> coppro: that's called congress
14:51:38 <elliott> coppro: you think they'd look at the result? :)
14:52:33 <oklopol> ais523\unfoog: okay fair enough
14:52:41 <elliott> haha I am going to TAX the SHIT out of the americans
14:52:46 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: but.. i mean
14:52:50 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: you didn't tell me!
14:53:04 <ais523\unfoog> and any student on the course could have accessed it
14:53:17 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: you didn't tell me about the course :(
14:53:33 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: you never told me!
14:53:45 <coppro> why would elliott be in ais523's course?
14:53:55 <ais523\unfoog> coppro: he wouldn't, that's why the conversation's so surreal
14:54:01 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: well sure but
14:54:08 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: i thought you'd tell me!
14:54:16 <elliott> i didn't think i'd have to ask, 'cuz, you know, nobody else had to ask
14:54:20 <elliott> you told them about the course!
14:54:38 <oklopol> elliott definitely need to revise his basic java
14:54:39 <ais523\unfoog> everyone on the course was told about it by someone else
14:54:57 <coppro> wtf "earthquake prevention"
14:55:06 <coppro> that's the dumbest idea I've heard
14:55:09 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: ok, well, why do they all hate me?
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14:55:51 <coppro> unfortunately, I have one of those class things coming up
14:55:55 <elliott> coppro: i am saving SO MUCH money for america with TAXES
14:56:47 <coppro> I was about half and half
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14:57:09 <coppro> the problem, of course, is that half of Congress will be all for spending cuts
14:57:14 <coppro> and the other half all for tax increases
14:57:59 <elliott> why does america have so much debt sheesh
14:58:12 <ais523\unfoog> coppro: no, most of Congress in the US is all for tax cuts and spending increases
14:58:12 <coppro> because Bush is retarded
14:58:37 <elliott> "Reduce the number of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan to 30,000 by 2013" oh man I have to DELIBERATE REALLY HARD OVER THIS
14:58:42 <elliott> it's like the hardest decision EVER
14:59:00 <coppro> HOW WILL WE DEFEND DEMOCRACY
14:59:14 <elliott> man i am like cutting the entire military here
14:59:15 <coppro> AND SPREAD IT TO THE INFIDELS, I MEAN, UNENLIGHTENED, I MEAN, PEOPLE WITHOUT DEMOCRACY
14:59:22 <elliott> coppro: I MEAN, PEOPLE WITH OIL
14:59:47 <elliott> "Reduce nuclear arsenal and space spending"
14:59:51 <elliott> i love the wording of that
14:59:53 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: don't be ridiculous, the US would have invaded itself if that was the only criterion
15:00:00 <elliott> "Would reduce number of nuclear warheads to 1,050, from 1,968. Would also reduce the number of Minuteman missiles and funding for nuclear research and development, missile development and space-based missile defense."
15:00:47 <elliott> 33% savings from tax increases, 67% savings from spending cuts
15:00:53 <elliott> it's that imbalanced because i cut the entire military :)
15:01:11 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: you'd never get re-elected for doing that
15:01:19 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: i'm not done yet :P
15:01:47 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: also, by "cut the whole military" what I actually meant is "stop the military spending loads of cash on pointless shit, and end the Iraq and Afghanistan crap"
15:01:56 <elliott> but i ticked all the military-cutting options, so there
15:01:58 <elliott> i just cut the entire military
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15:03:01 <elliott> "Nearly every other rich country has a tax on consumption, also known as a value-added tax or national sales tax. This option would impose a 5 percent consumption tax, exempting education, housing and charitable giving."
15:03:07 <elliott> The USA doesn't have VAT???
15:03:24 <elliott> hey i solved the deficit but i'm not done yet!!
15:03:42 <elliott> 61% tax incerases, 39% spending cuts
15:03:44 <oklopol> how many of those nuclear warheads would they need for an effecive apocalypse? you'd think they could drop the amount just under that without too much deliberation.
15:03:51 <ais523\unfoog> also, those exemptions are rather different from the UKs
15:04:02 <elliott> i think i'm going to keep checking boxes
15:04:07 <elliott> even if I have accidentally solved the deficit
15:05:00 <elliott> coppro: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic.html?choices=03x245r4 <-- what i solved the deficit with
15:05:09 <elliott> coppro: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic.html?choices=03xl45rh <-- what i kept going with
15:05:56 <elliott> hmm i didn't do anything to the federal employees
15:07:26 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: how many jobs would be lost as a result of your deficit-wiping?
15:07:43 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: as far as i can tell, something like 0.
15:08:10 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: military jobs, yse
15:08:13 <ais523\unfoog> I'd imagine cutting most military projects would lead to a bunch of unemployed soldiers
15:08:23 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: not /that/ many, really
15:08:35 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: I cut back the military to pre-Iraq War size in one option
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15:08:51 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: but most of the rest was just cutting navy/air force fleets, getting rid of weapons programs, etc.
15:09:13 <ais523\unfoog> so you have a bunch of soldiers with nothing to do
15:09:16 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: yep, that's it, no other jobs would be lost
15:09:20 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: also, that's not true
15:09:40 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: they did something before whatever program they were in, after all
15:09:46 <ais523\unfoog> that's mostly how the Japanese Army works, and they do things like build snowmen
15:10:11 <ais523\unfoog> because they aren't allowed to train for war or something because of sanctions after World War II, or something like that
15:11:42 <oklopol> why can't you drop everything the military is doing, and just pay the people the same amount for doing nothing?
15:12:20 <oklopol> then you'll have no one unemployed, get spending cuts, and millions of people able to just chill for the rest of their lives
15:12:24 <elliott> oklopol: well, if america was *completely* without defences I'd imagine there'd be more than a little temptation to attack the USA
15:12:34 <elliott> oklopol: but uhh sounds like what ais523\unfoog said about the japanese army :P
15:12:56 <oklopol> they can't actually do anything tho right
15:13:06 <elliott> oklopol: also, isn't that just unemployment money thingies except you have to go to work every day to do nothing
15:13:25 <oklopol> why would they have to go to work? they just get payed
15:14:37 <elliott> oklopol: so did you buy mc yet
15:24:06 <elliott> oklopol: all the 18 year olds in finland
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15:30:51 <oklopol> not all of them, for instance i was thinking i'd, for some reason, be able to skip that thing
15:35:51 <oklopol> i just hear it has its problems
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15:48:47 <Dmytro> I can not sea your hands!
15:49:20 <Dmytro> do you have any books about esoteric
15:49:39 <Dmytro> I will buy one or two or three
15:49:43 <elliott> but we can all sea our hands
15:49:51 <elliott> Dmytro: first initiate the code process
15:49:52 <Dmytro> can you deliver it to me
15:50:59 <Dmytro> I do not remember exectly the adress of the page
15:52:12 <Dmytro> my adress is Ukraine, Chigrina 22,122 Mykolaiv zip code 54020
15:52:44 <Dmytro> I will pay you in US dollars or rubles
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16:01:44 <Dmytro> I can make a good one web page
16:02:47 <Dmytro> instead books fooks for free
16:04:17 <Dmytro> and go to Kiev capital of Ukraine
16:05:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Dmytro, you are under arrest under suspicion of being a spambot.
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16:06:14 <ais523\unfoog> Dmytro: people don't generally post their addresses to IRC
16:07:13 <oklopol> why would we want a web page
16:07:59 <Dmytro> what adress do you wanna have?
16:08:10 <oklopol> you answer mine, i'll answer yours
16:08:38 <Dmytro> my mail is erodimon@gmail.com
16:09:24 <fizzie> oklopol: What's that? Little Timmy's falled down the well?
16:09:43 <oklopol> we don't know if we don't ask these questions
16:12:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Do you commonly have naked saunas and then roll about in the snow, or is it just an elaborate trick to play on gullible foreigners?
16:12:57 <fizzie> It's not very uncommon, no.
16:13:04 <oklopol> fizzie doesn't do it, i do
16:13:52 <fizzie> That's right, though I don't know how you know that.
16:14:09 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, curses. There was so much potential for mockery there...
16:14:21 <oklopol> well i don't know that specific piece of data, just like i don't actually know you have a penis.
16:15:16 <fizzie> They do it in Sweden too, I saw it in this "Ung och bortskämd" Swedish reality TV show that's apparently some sort of a thing now.
16:16:22 <fizzie> Or at the very least there was snow and some shirtless dude. I don't know, I wasn't paying attention.
16:17:03 <oklopol> i honestly don't know if Deewiant does that kind of stuff though
16:18:59 <fizzie> don't call him "deviant" for nothing, I presume.
16:19:38 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, oklopol, wait, that's exactly what you would say if you were playing an elaborate trick on gullible foreigners!
16:20:13 <Phantom_Hoover> For you see, I am a foreigner, and slightly gullible, and hence a prime target for your tricks!¬
16:20:35 <fizzie> I am tempted to do the no-such-word-in-the-dictionary trick now.
16:21:02 <fizzie> But no, I need to go burn some more chickens to have something to eat.
16:22:45 <ais523\unfoog> hmm, isn't the whole point of reality shows to contrive situations that don't happen when there isn't a TV crew there?
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16:27:30 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: "Did you know the word 'gullible' is not in the dictionary?"
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16:28:18 <fizzie> ais523\unfoog: The point of that show is, to quote a forum post: "Basically, 10 Swedish kids aged 18-24 who are used to mom and dad doing everything for them, even if they have their own apartments, are suddenly thrown together into a house and forced to fend for themselves."
16:28:33 <fizzie> ("Ung och bortskämd" translates to something like "young and spoiled".)
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16:30:50 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, I dimly recall steadfastly ignoring a similar thing on TV here.
16:44:02 <ais523\unfoog> Phantom_Hoover: they did something similar in the UK, only I think it was with 6-8 year olds
16:44:19 <ais523\unfoog> they started acting in increasingly dubious and illegal ways in a deliberate attempt to get the TV crew to interfere
16:44:39 <ais523\unfoog> (I ignored that too, but it was mentioned in the media on occasion)
16:45:04 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it was precisely the Swedish version, with studenty age types.
16:51:56 <ais523\unfoog> what the hell? http://www.novell.com/news/press/novell-agrees-to-be-acquired-by-attachmate-corporation
16:52:18 <ais523\unfoog> Novell are being bought by some people I've never heard of, and as part of the sale agreement are selling some of their IP to Microsoft
16:58:36 <ais523\unfoog> Phantom_Hoover: your news is nowhere near as scary as mine
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16:59:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, what a weird show. Are you sure it is Swedish?
17:01:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, okay. I haven't watched TV since valvakan
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17:06:38 <ais523> Vorpal: looks like SCO vs. IBM may go ahead anyway, just with a company other than SCO
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17:10:07 <Vorpal> ais523, SCO being bought too?
17:10:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I worked out why the computable reals are simultaneously countable and diagonalisable.
17:11:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, customised my minecraft skin
17:11:28 <Phantom_Hoover> They're countable, but that sequence reduces to the halting problem, and as such the diagonal is not itself a CR/
17:13:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I got confused about this months ago, though, so I doubt anyone else remembers.
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18:55:50 <elliott> ais523: Novell announced in November 2010 that it had agreed to be aquired by Attachmate for $2.2 billion. Attachmate plans to operate Novell as two units, one being SUSE. Certain intellectual property assets are planned to be sold to a consortium of companies led by Microsoft.[15]
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19:02:07 <eafkuor> any idea on how to prove the turing completeness of a language?
19:03:27 <elliott> eafkuor: implement a brainfuck interpreter
19:03:37 <elliott> eafkuor: or an SKI calculus interpreter, or an underload interpreter, or...
19:03:45 <elliott> pick a turing-complete language, implement it, done :)
19:04:02 <olsner> ehm, a universal one, that is
19:04:30 <eafkuor> yeah I know I could just implement a BF interpreter I was looking for the easy way
19:04:52 <olsner> I think that *is* the easy way :)
19:05:05 <Gregor> Can't get much easier than implementing BF ...
19:05:17 <olsner> string rewriting could be easier
19:05:24 <fizzie> BCT is among the simple ones, too.
19:05:35 <eafkuor> i can just ask my professor to do it :D
19:06:36 <eafkuor> and a way to prove a language is NOT turing complete?
19:06:59 <eafkuor> i don't want to spend the rest of my life trying to write an interpreter just to find out it's impossible
19:07:36 <elliott> eafkuor: demonstrate that it fails to meet one of the criteria for turing completeness
19:07:42 <fizzie> Fail to implement a BF interpreter. Clearly, then, either the language is not turing-complete, or you just aren't clever enough: and the latter is obviously unthinkable.
19:07:48 <elliott> eafkuor: e.g. it cannot use arbitrary amounts of memory
19:08:46 <eafkuor> well of course you are limited in memory but you can assume you have an infinitely powerful pc
19:08:59 <fizzie> You can also implement your thing in something that's known to be not turing-complete.
19:13:27 <ais523> elliott: I know, I told the channel but you weren't here
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19:13:43 <ais523> apparently, the most likely guess as to the assets in question are every patent Novell owns
19:13:46 <elliott> <eafkuor> well of course you are limited in memory but you can assume you have an infinitely powerful pc
19:13:53 <elliott> eafkuor: some languages have an inherent limit to accessible memory
19:14:03 <elliott> eafkuor: e.g. if you say memory addresses are 6-bits and point to a byte
19:14:13 <elliott> then you have a max. 64 bytes of ram no matter what
19:14:16 <ais523> which is scary, but not as scary as "the copyrights to UNIX", and it's interesting that they didn't sell Mono (although I suppose being an open-source project, the copyrights to it aren't worth much)
19:14:44 <elliott> ais523: mono is being developed at whatever the company they've been bought's name i
19:15:05 <ais523> apparently, they used to do mainframe terminal emulators, and were briefly famous for that
19:15:25 <elliott> 08:05:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Dmytro, you are under arrest under suspicion of being a spambot.
19:15:49 <ais523> what I found hilarious was that I checked the zipcode he gave, and it actually corresponded to the address he gave
19:15:55 <ais523> so I conclude that the address was valid
19:16:06 <elliott> ais523: I really want to print out the esolang wiki, tie it up, and mail it to the address; he did *ask* for a book on esoteric
19:16:37 <ais523> (wonders of the Internet #n+1: someone with no knowledge of the subject at all (me) could check the area which a Ukranian zip code corresponded to within 2 minutes)
19:16:39 <elliott> instead books fooks for free / and use safari / do you need money / I have a platinum / and silver / forks and knifes
19:16:54 <elliott> ip is valid / I have lots of money / I can help / yep / with web page / on php / or perl
19:17:05 <elliott> ais523: please tell me you didn't use a web browser
19:17:11 <ais523> I'd have assumed straight trolling, if it wasn't for the apparent validity of the contact details
19:17:12 <elliott> thus making "wonders of the *Internet*" the only correct way to word that
19:17:22 <elliott> ais523: we need google maps via finger
19:17:26 <ais523> but then, I was using one even for my IP
19:17:50 <ais523> I didn't use Google Maps, though; I found a list of Ukranian zip codes via Google, and crossreferenced it with the Wikipedia details on his/her address)
19:18:28 <elliott> <ais523> but then, I was using one even for my IP
19:18:39 <ais523> elliott: I meant "for IRC", and said the wrong thing
19:19:30 <elliott> from reddit, re: wikipedia donation adverts (NSFW text, and yes, I for once feel this note is justified :P) http://i.imgur.com/rKDDB.png
19:19:45 <ais523> "NSFW text" is a pretty amazing warning
19:19:55 <ais523> one that makes me want to avoid the link
19:20:09 <elliott> ais523: in this case, it's just profanity
19:20:13 <ais523> but still wonder how bad it has to be to justify the warning above all the other links that typically go around
19:20:18 <elliott> ais523: and i normally hate "NSFW text" warnings, it's just that the text is big
19:20:24 <elliott> and thus visible from relatively afar
19:20:49 <ais523> I love the idea that your concept of work-safety depends on how easily someone could shoulder-surf what you're looking at
19:20:50 <elliott> ais523: what i get /really/ annoyed about is when people (cough Sgeo) tag the "NSFW" warning next to something because it has the word "fuck" in it
19:21:07 <elliott> there is a very fine line!
19:21:51 <ais523> elliott: hmm, I wonder if it depends on context?
19:21:59 <ais523> e.g. would he consider "brainfuck" NSFW?
19:22:15 <elliott> ais523: i think he's said brainf*** before, and i probably lynched him for it
19:22:38 <ais523> I don't see why you wouldn't just abbreviate it to BF if you wanted to remove the profanity
19:22:44 <ais523> I do that frequently, just to save on typing
19:23:04 <elliott> ais523: it should be "bf" really
19:23:09 <elliott> it's neither BrainFuck nor Brainfuck
19:23:09 <ais523> well, as frequently as there's an ontopic discussion
19:23:13 <elliott> <ais523> well, as frequently as there's an ontopic discussion
19:23:30 <ais523> elliott: no it shouldn't; brainfuck isn't inherently lowercase, it just follows the normal capitalisation rules for a common noun
19:23:37 <ais523> and they go into capitals when made into acronyms/abbreviations
19:23:46 <elliott> ais523: let me go check the original distribution
19:23:53 <elliott> i bet it has "brainfuck" at the start of a sentence
19:25:37 <elliott> grr, he manages to avoid it
19:26:17 <elliott> ais523: fine, but I'm going to put {{lowercase}} on [[brainfuck]]
19:26:34 <elliott> ugh, we have no {{lowercase}}
19:41:23 <ais523> elliott: hmm; shouldn't titles be in title case?
19:42:08 <elliott> ais523: feel free to revert
19:44:51 <pikhq> http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=bellingham&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Bellingham,+Whatcom,+Washington&gl=us&ei=CtTpTN27FJP0swOvqOSwCw&oi=geocode_result&ved=0CCAQ8gEwAA&ll=48.998965,-111.96682&spn=0.003421,0.007628&t=h&z=18
19:45:14 <pikhq> Uh, I'm pretty sure it is illegal to use all of that baseball field.
19:45:30 <pikhq> Or that nearby parking lot.
19:47:23 <ais523> elliott: I'll use a custom {{wrongtitle}}, I think
19:58:50 <elliott> "thus use of P2P software will almost inevitably slow your computer [and your internet connection] down." --Oxford internet policy, demonstrating extreme powers of FUD in the non-bracketed bit
20:02:39 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I wonder why the AGPL doesn't extend to all kinds of IPC?
20:03:02 <elliott> e.g. http://www.acquisitionx.com/ is a proprietary app that communicates with the GPL'd core it uses via unix pipes
20:03:15 <elliott> one would think that the spirit of the GPL forbids these, like it forbids proprietary network prgoarms
20:03:18 <coppro> elliott: very difficult to define it in such a way that it gets what you want but not what you want
20:03:27 <coppro> also, no one but RMS cares
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20:24:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i have a friend that goes to oxford and he quoted it
20:24:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It also bans Yahoo! Messenger; I am not quite sure why.
20:29:13 <pikhq> elliott: It's the opinion of the FSF that communication with a GPL'd program via pipes is entirely legal.
20:29:27 <elliott> pikhq: so is serving a modified GPL'd program over a network without offering source
20:29:30 <elliott> pikhq: but it's against the spirit, thus AGPL
20:29:46 <pikhq> elliott: Even when doing crazy ass-things like that GPG-wrapping plugin...
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21:34:23 <fxkr> does anyone of you know if someone has ever managed to get the "hello, world" in brainfuck to below 105 instructions? thats my solution, i bet its possible to improve it, but i couldnt find a shorter one on the internet..
21:36:32 <fxkr> (/me wants to print that on a tshirt, but 105 instructions sounds like "failed to get it < 100")
21:37:00 <elliott> fxkr: there have been hand-optimised versions
21:37:19 <fxkr> !bf_txtgen Hello, world!
21:37:25 <elliott> fxkr: it runs, give it time
21:37:33 <elliott> it won't produce an optimal solution, but it's "good enough" most of the time
21:37:42 <elliott> and it improves each time -- Hello, world! has to have been run through it a billion times by now :)
21:37:53 <fxkr> is the source code of that thing available?
21:38:06 <fxkr> oh oops, should have been "hello, world" (= original version)
21:38:09 <elliott> fxkr: oh, it will never run. EgoBot is not here :)
21:38:10 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, Vorpal, ineiros, any ideas on what to put in a giant cavern?
21:38:15 <elliott> "Hello, world!" is pretty canonical.
21:38:56 <elliott> fxkr: https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
21:39:01 <elliott> fxkr: look for bf_txtgen in the source tree
21:39:03 <fxkr> thanks a bunch
21:39:42 <elliott> fxkr: https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/0fe16032eb2b/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen/textgen.java
21:39:51 <elliott> fxkr: there are better generators, but not ones i have links to.
21:54:09 <fizzie> For "hello, world" with that textgen, 100 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>++>++++++++<<<<-]>-.---.+++++++..+++.>-.>++.>-.<<<.+++.------.--------. [4088]
21:55:04 <fxkr> fizzie: yeah it gave me a 100 soln too
21:55:37 <pikhq> bf textgen really should handle mod256 arithmetic.
21:55:43 <fxkr> not a pretty one though so i am hand-optimizing that right now for my tshirt
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21:57:25 <ais523> elliott: thanks for what you've done to Agora, it's made an otherwise boring week pretty interesting
21:57:38 <ais523> nobody has any idea what the rules say any more
21:57:39 <elliott> ais523: i swear, i had no intention of ambiguity
21:57:44 <elliott> i forgot you were all stuck-up losers :)
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22:22:54 <SgeoN1> I am utterly bored waiting for the bus
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22:28:05 <oklopol> SgeoN1: lol get a car like all the cool ppl do
22:29:55 <oklopol> i ride the bus as well, but the bus schedules are public in finland, so you can just walk to the stop just before the bus comes
22:30:34 <elliott> SgeoN1: how can you blame that on your dad
22:31:04 <oklopol> his dad owns the car business
22:31:16 <oklopol> and won't allow cars be sold to him
22:31:41 <SgeoN1> Well, or should I get the blame for relying on my dad to set up stiff for driving lessons, which he never did?
22:32:03 <SgeoN1> Oklopol, so busses always arrive exactly on the dot?
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22:32:27 <elliott> SgeoN1: are you somehow unable to sign up for driving lessons yourself
22:32:38 <oklopol> SgeoN1: well sometimes the dot is big and fuzzy
22:32:51 <elliott> not that i've ever done it, just seems pretty trivial and all
22:33:11 <oklopol> elliott: it's surprisingly hard to do anything, actually
22:33:31 <SgeoN1> My dad wants to install a passenger side brake in some car so I can get practice
22:33:33 <elliott> oklopol: yeah i mean you're fighting against basically onstoppable forces
22:33:40 <elliott> oklopol: atomic interactions, gravity... Sgeo's dad...
22:33:46 <elliott> <SgeoN1> My dad wants to install a passenger side brake in some car so I can get practice
22:33:52 <elliott> installing passenger side breaks into cars?
22:34:06 <elliott> yeah that sounds really hard
22:34:11 <elliott> you have to pull it when you want the thing to stop.
22:34:26 <oklopol> what kind of 20's car do you have
22:34:30 <elliott> oklopol: well this is one of the imaginary breaks that you pull.
22:34:46 <oklopol> well those exist but i think you'd usually install a pedal
22:35:04 <SgeoN1> So that if I end up... in some dangerous situation, he can stop the car.
22:35:21 <oklopol> how about a gas pedal for when you're being a pussy
22:35:26 <elliott> SgeoN1: does he not believe in driving instructors or something
22:35:30 <SgeoN1> Erm, what oklopol said
22:36:15 <oklopol> elliott: free practise as much as needed?
22:36:41 <SgeoN1> Supposedly, my dad was a driving instructor once
22:36:44 <oklopol> although installing a brake might not be free
22:36:45 <elliott> oklopol: well true i guess paying for SgeoN1's 1,000,000 years of driving lessons might be difficult
22:36:53 <elliott> SgeoN1: a doctor AND a driving instructor? man he's a genius
22:37:51 <SgeoN1> And whenever my step-mother brings up the issue, she's talking how important it is for me to learn how to drive "even if it takes years and you only drive on local roads"
22:39:19 <elliott> <SgeoN1> And whenever my step-mother brings up the issue, she's talking how important it is for me to learn how to drive "even if it takes years and you only drive on local roads"
22:39:21 <oklopol> SgeoN1: that's some serious confidence right there :D
22:39:21 <elliott> that makes no sense at all
22:39:28 <elliott> Driving has INHERENT UTILITY!
22:40:24 <oklopol> driving is not a particularly beautiful skill
22:40:35 <oklopol> unlike say making carrots fly
22:41:02 <SgeoN1> What use is skill writing programs meant to run under PSOX?
22:41:38 <oklopol> good point, surely elliott agrees that's a skill that has inherent utility :D
22:41:53 <elliott> maybe one day SgeoN1 will die and nobody will ever say "PSOX" again
22:41:56 <oklopol> maybe that was not your purpose
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22:42:26 <oklopol> i can't really do anything
22:44:10 <oklopol> is this the kind of duel where you can die?
22:44:27 <oklopol> i mean i'm all for dying in my twenties in a duel, but i think you're supposed to actually get some results first.
22:44:49 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, you have 2 days in which to solve the Riemann hypothesis.
22:45:07 <elliott> oklopol: galois disagrees!
22:45:14 * elliott is lynched by a million mathematicians
22:45:16 <Phantom_Hoover> That'll give me time to find an épeé with a point that's actually sharp.
22:45:25 <oklopol> galois didn't get results before dying?
22:45:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Maybe I should get two, actually... no, you'll source your own swords!
22:46:33 <oklopol> i may also buy a pistol just in case
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22:49:26 <oklopol> if you actually "bring" a nuke, i think i can just use that as my weapon too.
22:50:47 <oklopol> assuming it's a big nuke that also kills you, a draw against a world-class fencing champignon like you would already be quite an accomplishment
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22:52:28 <oklopol> or i don't actually know the rules of fencing, will the one that's incinerated first lose or what
22:54:06 <SgeoN1> Just don't forget to use puns
22:54:28 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, well, in epee it's basically "stick pointy end in other person".
22:54:44 <oklopol> well sure but what about nukes
22:55:33 <oklopol> well yeah but i'm asking who the winner is if both die in the explosion
22:55:53 * SgeoN1 takes the pin out of of a grenade, sticks the pin in PH, takes the grenade and runs
22:56:27 <oklopol> you win, and he never gets a rematch
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22:58:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not actually *sure* what the rules are if you hit /yourself/.
22:59:14 <oklopol> you can't just ask or anything
22:59:52 <oklopol> "hey i learned a cool trick"
22:59:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps do some kind of insanely overdrawn parry and hit my own foot.
23:00:12 <oklopol> is epee the name of that thing?
23:00:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what if you refuse to fight
23:00:32 <oklopol> hmm yeah it's pretty obvious from one of ur mesuges
23:00:38 <elliott> pacifism, the religion of the pacific
23:00:42 <oklopol> elliott: sure, it's all about politics
23:00:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ok, what if you just slap them
23:01:03 <elliott> what if they do that and you just slap them
23:01:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I think slapping someone means that they have to duel them or they'll be your bitch.
23:01:50 <oklopol> if you're having a duel, and you slap someone else, will the duel you're having be put in the stack
23:02:13 <oklopol> and what if you slap yourself?!?
23:02:17 <oklopol> fencing is fucking confusing
23:02:30 <oklopol> with all the nukes and recursion and pacifism
23:03:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Duelling etiquette is regrettably absent from fencing didactery.
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23:20:28 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_page of all the pages to depict
23:27:37 <oklopol> wow it's like infinity in your pocket
23:28:34 <oklopol> so do you get phrases stuck to your head, like songs do
23:28:57 <oklopol> i've had "penis hungry hooker" in my head all day, probably heard that on south park or something
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23:33:39 <nooga> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
23:33:48 <nooga> i just discovered that i can't do pipes
23:38:07 <SgeoN1> 20 min or so until the next bus
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23:39:09 <nooga> i spawned shitton of child processes using fork() and plumbed them with each other and the parent process
23:39:24 <nooga> and unbelievable mess exploded
23:40:24 <oklopol> SgeoN1: the buses here are usually off about 5 minutes, haven't you been standing there for like 2 hours
23:40:41 <nooga> i don't have plan9
23:40:49 <nooga> i thought i still have it
23:40:52 <SgeoN1> I caught that bus and the bus after
23:41:04 <SgeoN1> I'm waiting for the last bus
23:41:08 <olsner> nooga: why did you do it wrong when you could've done it right?
23:47:58 <elliott> <olsner> nooga: why did you do it wrong when you could've done it right?
23:48:01 <elliott> this is what cpp said to me
23:48:07 <elliott> through a veil of unworkingness
23:48:23 <elliott> oklopol: SgeoN1's trying to avoid embarrassment, he's been waiting for the bus for 7 years.
23:48:37 <elliott> sometimes he goes on his laptop rather than his phone to keep up the illusion that he's at home
23:48:42 <elliott> and he invented this story about university
23:48:54 <elliott> this also explains his nostalgia, he literally hasn't seen or used anything younger than 7 years
23:48:55 <oklopol> i wasn't even line in 1999
23:49:03 <elliott> oklopol: yeah, you wasn't even line.
23:49:39 <oklopol> well to be honest i don't know why i wrote that
23:49:50 <oklopol> i have no idea what i was trying to say
23:50:03 <olsner> well, neither do we :)
23:50:31 <cheater00> oklopol: you were trying to say that you weren't line.
23:50:58 <cheater00> btw, check this out: http://www.liveleak.com/mp53/player.swf?config=http://www.liveleak.com/mp53/player_config.php?token=07b_1284580365%26embed=1
23:51:32 <olsner> cheater00: ooooh! I get it now
23:51:49 <olsner> he wasn't even line back then
23:52:51 <olsner> did you mix up your/you're just there?
23:53:04 <oklopol> not unintentionally anyway
23:53:09 <olsner> I'm not line, neither do I have one
23:53:29 <olsner> and if I were or did, you couldn't bet it
23:53:43 <nooga> now my daemon reads yaml config files
23:53:52 <oklopol> olsner: you did get the pun tho?
23:53:56 <cheater00> olsner: after oklopol is done, i'll bet your line too
23:54:08 <cheater00> it's better to do it this way, than to use your own
23:54:11 <oklopol> sometimes i like to do a reality check
23:54:19 <SgeoN1> THEN WHO IS FUCK THIS MEME?
23:54:23 <oklopol> well seems it was a good idea
23:54:42 <olsner> nooga: my daemons mostly possess me and do stupid crap, but I'm glad yours are more educated
23:54:57 <olsner> or even configurable? that'd be awesome
23:55:20 <oklopol> speaking of education, do it
23:56:20 <SgeoN1> There are no girls on this bus
23:56:58 <oklopol> yeah looking at teens in the bus always makes my morning
23:57:19 <cheater00> oklopol: have you watched <<url>> ?
23:57:26 <oklopol> and listening them talk about school and that weird creep that always stares at... wait
23:58:07 <oklopol> cheater00: n15:58:22 <oklopol> the url
00:00:18 <oklopol> i'm not entirely sure i'd have the balls for that job
00:01:50 <cheater00> except, when i got to the top, i wouldn't be doing my work
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00:03:35 <cheater00> oklopol: no, i'd probably shag the girl who's my climbing partner. :p
00:03:49 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:04:13 <oklopol> okay so where i run out of balls, you get an erection
00:05:21 <olsner> oh, the link is that video with climbing the radio tower whatchamacallit?
00:05:33 <olsner> then I don't have to open it since I've already seen it
00:05:48 <olsner> really should put titles on the links
00:06:47 <oklopol> you said i can consider you gay if it helps my process
00:07:05 <cheater00> i guess a gay is 1000000x more manly than you then
00:07:25 <cheater00> does that make me as manly as .... GEORGE MICHAEL?
00:09:08 <oklopol> okay he's some sort of human
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00:20:31 <Sgeo> I'm sure it made sense at one point to call 16-bit color "High Color"
00:21:24 <Sgeo> What id I miss since 15:58:07 <oklopol> cheater00: n
00:22:04 <Sgeo> Also, when's the funeral?
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01:03:10 <Sgeo> <begins screening>
01:03:15 <Sgeo> perdito, have you been here before?
01:05:28 <perdito> hi sgeo.. yes i've been here once
01:05:39 <Sgeo> Ok <screening done>
01:08:34 <perdito> did you manage to find new ways of developing purposeless applications
01:14:45 <perdito> im not very familiar with freenode.net, and interested in c# programming.. can you give me some hints where to start? a chan or sth
01:15:04 <coppro> We are attempting to pass the Turing test
01:18:17 <perdito> is there a .net channel on freenode?
01:19:53 <coppro> There does not exist to the best of knowledge.
01:24:00 <Sgeo> perdito, try ##csharp
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02:15:15 <Sgeo> Ah, 16-bit color
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03:00:40 <Sgeo> Tell me I'm not a monster
03:01:33 <Sgeo> Why is http://i.imgur.com/nmoRZ.png more unnerving to me than when I decided to increase pain to max in random norns?
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04:12:19 <pikhq> The mere idea of an ATP decoupler horrifies me.
04:20:50 <Sgeo> pikhq, how more so than that mercury compound?
15:04:00 <elliott_> oklopol has never hard of a flute
18:41:41 <elliott_> Vorpal: SO WHEN'S THE NEXT CFUNGE RELEASE
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18:55:05 <elliott_> Vorpal: just make a release now :
18:55:45 <Vorpal> <elliott_> oklopol: get some cheapo red/blue 3d glasses <-- I thought about it
18:55:54 <Vorpal> elliott_, well there is still that gcc -O3 issue I had no time to look into
18:56:33 <elliott_> i think i have some lying around
18:56:47 <Vorpal> elliott_, I know I don't have any
18:57:09 <Vorpal> elliott_, besides I would need ones that work on top of normal glasses. The cheap paper kind usually doesn't
18:57:51 <fizzie> Just glue some suitably-coloured filters on top of your regular glasses. (Then you'll see 3D in the REAL WORLD too.)
18:58:24 <Vorpal> I have sunglasses that go on top. Special made for that. Only use them when driving.
18:58:46 <Vorpal> a lot cheaper than getting viewing correcting sunglasses
18:59:23 <fizzie> Yes, I've seen that sort of stuff.
18:59:48 <fizzie> tMy only sunglasses are with the wrong lens strength.
18:59:58 <Vorpal> only issue is that you can't place them too close. Results in condensation issues then
19:00:56 <Vorpal> ehird: doom delayed until tomorrow: http://notch.tumblr.com/
19:01:00 -!- kar8nga has joined.
19:05:24 <elliott_> "Like this if you want Notch to drive home and get the keystore and do the update today!!"
19:05:51 <Vorpal> elliott_, isn't pvp supposed to be an option?
19:05:56 <elliott_> "We've all been waiting so long for this one feature, and for you to torture us by saying we don't have the update today because of a mild case of absent-mindedness."
19:06:02 <elliott_> Vorpal: hopefully health is an option
19:06:09 <Vorpal> elliott_, don't think so
19:06:12 <elliott_> Vorpal: I, for one, am prepared to login with an invalid password and hope everything works.
19:06:24 <Vorpal> elliott_, try it now to see if that works
19:06:34 <Vorpal> elliott_, it won't I think
19:06:44 <Vorpal> elliott_, ineiros's server will reject your connect iirc
19:06:58 <elliott_> well, let's patch the server! :P
19:07:09 <Vorpal> elliott_, why not check now if it works for you?
19:07:30 -!- elliott_ has left (?).
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19:07:43 <Vorpal> elliott_, you have 3d glasses?
19:07:58 <elliott_> Vorpal: i can mail a pair to sweden if you want :P
19:07:59 <Vorpal> elliott_, I am logged in atm yes
19:08:12 <elliott_> oh man, the colours are so lost
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22:39:24 <Phantom_Hoover_> Dear Debian: stop telling me I have 12 updates available AND THEN NOT FRICKING INSTALLING THEM WHEN I ASK YOU TO.
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22:53:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, found a torchlit cave behind your mountain
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22:58:51 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, is it suitable for the starting point for the General Bay? I want to construct it to the west anyway, so...
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23:01:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, I've visited a few caves that way.
23:01:46 <fizzie> Group-exploring is not really my thing, and since you people keep walking around all the caves, had to look elsewhere.
23:02:32 <fizzie> I think next time I'll just walk for twenty minutes to a randomly picked direction.
23:02:37 <Phantom_Hoover_> fizzie, what awesome things could I put in a giant cuboidal cavern?
23:02:49 <fizzie> Well, "hello world" is pretty typical.
23:03:14 <fizzie> You could build the Enterprise; there's been at least two of them already.
23:03:27 <fizzie> Alternatively, a giant self-portrait.
23:03:59 <Phantom_Hoover_> I don't think you can do forcefields with redstone, though...
23:05:14 <fizzie> Build a GSV: "between 25 km and 200 km in each dimension" => start with a cave of dimensions in the [25000, 200000] block range. (Of course height-wise you only have something like 120 metres to work with, sooo...)
23:06:46 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, Culture ships aren't physically that big; most of that size is field enclosures.
23:07:18 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:07:37 <Phantom_Hoover_> Although IIRC they're still several kilometres high, so...
23:09:00 <Phantom_Hoover_> Also, in any case they are, to quote Banks himself, "shoeboxes with the corners rounded off", so the actual *construction* would be pretty easy.
23:09:19 <olsner> Sgeo: me too! tuesdays are easily the most productive day of the week for me
23:09:37 <Sgeo> In my case, it's less about productivity...
23:09:58 <Sgeo> And this is where elliott_ starts claiming that I have insane hormones
23:10:08 <olsner> monday is spent waking up, thursdays are spent pining for friday and friday is spent pining for the weekend, wednesday is just meh in the middle
23:10:09 <fizzie> PH: Yes, but a GSV. "They burst from the last membrane into a great hazy space lit by a yellow-white line burning high above, beyond layers of wispy cloud. ...
23:10:16 <fizzie> ... They were above and aft of the craft's stern. The ship was twenty-five kilometres long and ten wide. The top surface was parkland; wooded hills and ridges separated by and studded with rivers and lakes."
23:10:33 <fizzie> So 25000x10000 blocks and non-trivial to shape.
23:11:19 <Sgeo> I was talking with the girl I for about 2 and a half hours
23:12:27 <fizzie> He talked an unspecified length of time with the girl he did *something* to for 2.5 hours.
23:12:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> fizzie, hmm. Are there any ships which could reasonably fit into a box 120 metres high?
23:12:54 <fizzie> (The preposition was just a guess.)
23:13:35 <fizzie> I don't recall concrete measurements offhand, but probably.
23:14:15 <Phantom_Hoover_> fizzie, oh, Sgeo's adolescent hormones become much more entertaining if you use that interpretation.
23:14:30 <Sgeo> I still haven't asked her out :(
23:14:36 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure she likes me, though
23:15:16 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, I want to crowbar an AW joke in here but I am too tired.
23:15:20 <fizzie> "The air swarmed with thousands of craft of every type Quilan had ever seen or heard of, and more besides. Some were tiny, some were the size of the Superlifter." I'm not sure if he specified that size. This is Look to Windward, of course.
23:16:26 <olsner> fizzie has memorized everything he's ever read, that's how
23:16:27 <fizzie> I may have acquired a collection of a thousand ebooks from somewhere. No idea how it happened.
23:17:13 <olsner> it's like movies without sound and without video, just the subtitles
23:17:37 <olsner> of course, the subtitles are more thorough than they usually are in movies, to compensate
23:18:33 * olsner picks up the glove, cuts it in pieces and makes a stew
23:19:07 <olsner> I take it you have recently heard about duelling from james may's tv show
23:19:07 <fizzie> "Killer Class [ROU] (200 meters long)" says Wikipedia, in the very encyclopediaic and notable "Ship types (The Culture)" article.
23:19:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> ROUs are cigar-shaped with two globes at the end, aren't they?
23:20:07 <fizzie> I assume this is the royal "we".
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23:20:45 <Phantom_Hoover_> I assume that everyone else is my slave and will do whatever I tell them.
23:21:46 -!- Hiant has joined.
23:22:07 <Phantom_Hoover_> If I acquire (read: steal) loads of gunpowder I can put TNT cannons in the weapons globes, as well...
23:22:17 <Hiant> Oh god, there is a really prolific spambot messing with esolang...
23:23:22 <Hiant> No idea, but the username is Ejuzarih.
23:23:57 <Hiant> And it is literally everywhere. It seems to be targeting the first subheading of every page.
23:25:11 <Hiant> Phantom_Hoover_: And it is changing a new page about every minute.
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23:26:11 <Hiant> Phantom_Hoover_: Every link it created leads to a Trojan.
23:26:20 <fizzie> Did you use the red telephone?
23:26:59 <fizzie> No, but there should be. For matters grave.
23:27:22 <Hiant> What interests me is, how is it picking its targets? I dont see any order to its changes.
23:28:33 <Phantom_Hoover_> FWIW, the spambot doesn't look very sophisticated; there's just noöne around to stop it.
23:28:47 <Hiant> Phantom_Hoover_: Possible, but it is also creating pages. My guess is that it is doing so according to red links.
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23:34:06 <fizzie> Do the trojan links at least have esolang-related link texts?
23:35:27 <Phantom_Hoover_> fizzie, thing to put in the General Bay: a redstone BF interpreter
23:35:30 <Sgeo> In order to be dangerous, wouldn't it need...
23:35:35 <Hiant> fizzie: Nope. They all say something like 'Site maintenance, alternate page here'
23:35:46 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, I've been begging for that, despite not being there
23:35:55 <Hiant> Phantom_Hoover_: I wish...
23:36:01 <fizzie> Spambots nowadays, completely missing that personal touch.
23:36:36 <Hiant> Sgeo, Phantom_Hoover_: In minecraft?
23:37:03 <Phantom_Hoover_> [[The North would "continue to make merciless military attacks with no hesitation if the South Korean enemy dares to invade our sea territory by 0.001mm", it warned.]]
23:37:50 <Phantom_Hoover_> I mean, did he actually say "one point nought nought one millimetres"?
23:38:03 <fizzie> PH: If you can fit the circuitry in the radius that redstone circuits work in, around the player. I think that ALU was already quite big. (But I'm no redstonician.)
23:38:43 <fizzie> Maybe he said "one micrometre", and the article writer was afraid readers don't know the unit.
23:38:52 <Sgeo> Minecraft wiki is under spam attack
23:39:01 <Sgeo> http://www.minecraftwiki.net/index.php?title=Redstone_circuits&action=history
23:40:14 <fizzie> Hey, it's the same bot?
23:40:36 <fizzie> It must be international "Spam a MediaWiki" day today.
23:41:20 <fizzie> Anyway, "Circuits that are more than ~300 blocks away from your current position will cease to operate due to being on unloaded chunks."
23:41:58 <fizzie> Maybe you could have some dedicated brainfuck interpreter observers always logged-on.
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23:42:51 <elliott_> <Phantom_Hoover_> Dear Debian: stop telling me I have 12 updates available AND THEN NOT FRICKING INSTALLING THEM WHEN I ASK YOU TO.
23:42:52 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, if you can fit an ALU into a 600x600 square are, you can fit a BF intepreter into a 600x600x120 volume.
23:42:54 <elliott_> it has to upgrade some before others i think
23:44:39 <elliott_> <Sgeo> In my case, it's less about productivity...
23:44:44 <elliott_> on tuesdays, active worlds is FREE!
23:46:31 <elliott_> <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott_, you are more nocturnal. Mock Sgeo for me.
23:46:45 <Sgeo> But you already did!
23:46:57 <Sgeo> Not sufficiently though
23:48:01 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott_, incidentally, the wiki is being heavily spamme.d
23:48:49 <elliott_> <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott_, it's been doing this for TWO DAYS.
23:48:53 <elliott_> because stuff is changing a lot
23:48:56 <elliott_> in the last dash before release
23:49:05 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover_: basically it happens when it has to install or remove new packages, i think
23:49:14 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover_: just use a bot to revert the wiki
23:49:19 <elliott_> simpler than doing it manually
23:49:42 <elliott_> lol, look at the site it's spamming
23:49:49 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott_, do you want to hack together a bot interface to a hideously outdated version of MW?
23:50:15 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover_: Um, you do realise that all the bot APIs basically just use the API interface of MediaWiki, which is solid?
23:50:25 <elliott_> "Look at history" and "edit this page" has ... not changed.
23:50:34 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover_: Sure, it's what you get when you see a URL like /w/index.php?title=Foo&action=raw.
23:50:41 <elliott_> You can also specify format and stuff, and do things via POST.
23:50:48 <elliott_> It's actually /w/api.php or something.
23:51:08 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover_: Anyway, pywikipediabot should work just fine or whatever.
23:51:12 <elliott_> Failing that, just literally web-scrape the pages.
23:51:43 <elliott_> It, er, quoted our markup: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=EsoInterpreters&curid=2229&diff=19469&oldid=18653
23:52:21 <elliott_> Anyway, it has seemingly stopped.
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00:02:13 <Hiant> Hello, Sgeo. The bot attacking the Minecraft wiki is the same as the one attacking esolang...
00:03:08 <Hiant> The link locations, and the style of attack, is the same.
00:06:27 <Hiant> elliott_, I believe it must be targeting Mediawiki.
00:07:49 <Hiant> elliott_, sorry for stating the obvious ;)
00:24:58 <Sasha> http://anyhub.net/file/_Oo-2010-11-23_17.08.37.png
00:26:57 <Slereah> I can tell from the pixels
00:27:05 <Sasha> I made those moons
00:28:33 <Sgeo> Minecraft has hovering blocks?
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00:29:44 <Sasha> you can make that happen
00:29:59 <Sasha> butyou know how it normally has a day/night cycle?
00:30:24 <Sasha> I took out the normal moon from the game files and put in my own cooler ones
00:32:22 * Sgeo knows little about Minecraft
00:32:44 <Sgeo> Except it's like AW with limited resources and only one model
00:32:57 <elliott_> Sgeo: FUCK THE FUCK OFF ACTIVEWORLDS IS A PIECE OF BORING USELESS SHIT AND MINECRAFT IS A FUN GAME
00:33:23 <Sgeo> If you needed to collect objects in AW to build in AW, would it make AW more interesting/
00:33:24 <Vorpal> Sgeo, it is nothing like that
00:33:43 <Quadlex> elliott_: CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL
00:34:07 <elliott_> Quadlex: when talking to NostalgiaForeverAndEverBot^WSgeo, yes, yes it is.
00:34:21 <Quadlex> elliott_: Oh. Wel. Carry on ^_^
00:34:58 <Sgeo> Sasha, 3d virtual worlds thing
00:35:15 <elliott_> Sasha: what sgeo means to say is
00:35:19 <elliott_> Sasha: it's like second life, only
00:35:19 <Sasha> so... Infiniminer?
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00:35:28 <elliott_> Sasha: (2) ancient and unupdated and dead.
00:35:34 <elliott_> Sgeo still likes it because he is stuck in 2000.
00:35:41 <Sgeo> I object to that "unupdated" part!
00:35:50 <Sgeo> Although AW has some niceties that SL doesn't
00:36:18 <Sgeo> It's easier to make particles and vehicles in AW than SL. And in game worlds, bots can forcibly teleport people
00:36:27 <Sgeo> And it's easier to build than in SL
00:36:36 <Sasha> Can't get stupider
00:36:42 <Sgeo> Although arguably there's less room for creativity than non-world owners
00:37:05 <Sgeo> Sasha, there are no flying penises in AW
00:37:18 <Sgeo> Although I guess you could make one.. with some difficulty
00:37:36 <Sgeo> Too annoying to use by griefers, at any rate
00:37:58 <Sgeo> The typical method of griefing in places like AWNewbie was to put goatse-esque pictures everywhere
00:38:10 <Sgeo> But that's not possible in, say, a conference room where the ground is covered
00:39:51 <Sgeo> http://maprejuice.com/problem
00:39:58 <Sgeo> Please tell me that a human looks this over.
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00:42:53 <Sasha> Why am I out of bacon
00:43:27 <Sgeo> Tylenol (Taking a whole bottle of Tylenol kills you so how could taking one help you? It doesnt)
00:43:39 <elliott_> <Sgeo> Tylenol (“Taking a whole bottle of Tylenol kills you so how could taking one help you? It doesn’t”)
00:43:45 <Sgeo> http://skepchick.org/blog/2010/11/skeptical-ninjas-undercover-jamie-and-buffy-and-the-autism-expo/
00:43:46 <elliott_> i don't see the relevance of this or anything
00:43:54 <elliott_> Sgeo: that does not answer my question
00:43:58 <elliott_> i already know that tylenol is useless.
00:44:23 <Sgeo> elliott_, some group claimed at an autism expo that Tylenol causes autism
00:44:43 <elliott_> Sgeo: It doesn't, but Tylenol is a basically-ineffective painkiller and fatal at scarily low dosages.
00:44:45 <Sgeo> And also, that line of reasoning would mean that there's no such thing as a beneficial medication
00:46:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: By that notion, water is not beneficial.
00:46:31 <pikhq> After all, that can kill you.
00:46:43 <elliott_> <Sgeo> And also, that line of reasoning would mean that there's no such thing as a beneficial medication
00:46:47 <elliott_> what ais523 was on, for instance
00:46:52 <pikhq> (water poisoning is a terrible, terrible way to die)
00:47:56 <Sgeo> In health class, they showed us a video about some girl who took ecstacy, drank too much water, and died from the water
00:49:34 <pikhq> elliott_: Your brain swells.
00:49:53 <pikhq> elliott_: And then it stops working.
00:50:02 <Sgeo> Are their pain ... thingies in the brain?
00:50:08 <elliott_> <Sgeo> Are their pain ... thingies in the brain?
00:50:10 <Vorpal> elliott_, after I could access the secret chest
00:50:25 <Sgeo> I mean, whatever nerves are throughout the body
00:50:51 <Sgeo> That tell the brain "hey, this part of the body is in pain"
00:51:10 <elliott_> i think you could tell though. if someone was poking your brain
00:51:15 <Sgeo> So it's not painful then?
00:51:18 <pikhq> It *does* however contain the circuitry for most of your bodily functions.
00:51:20 <Vorpal> <elliott_> what ais523 was on, for instance <-- painkiller?
00:51:35 <elliott_> Vorpal: no, he has all sorts of intolerances
00:51:42 <elliott_> Vorpal: so he drunk this liquid for nutrition for a while
00:51:50 <elliott_> Vorpal: and it was completely balanced
00:51:51 <pikhq> (the spinal cord handles a large number of reflexes. And walking.)
00:52:04 <elliott_> Vorpal: well, i dunno about allergies, but intolerances of various sorts.
00:52:18 <Sgeo> The walking brain-dead? :D
00:52:22 <elliott_> Vorpal: he said something like if he consumed too many dairy products they thought he'd *become* allergic :)
00:52:30 <elliott_> Sgeo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPiLLplofYw
00:52:33 <elliott_> Sgeo: cat without brain walking
00:52:34 <Vorpal> elliott_, he could stop doing it?
00:52:44 <elliott_> Vorpal: well, yes, but safer to just avoid it than risk your life don't you think...
00:53:05 <Sasha> okay, found more bacon
00:53:18 <Vorpal> elliott_, but a bit boring in the long run
00:53:33 <elliott_> like a HOMOSEXUAL VEGAN ANARCHIST
00:53:42 <pikhq> Sgeo: Fun fact: the only reason babies can't walk is a lack of balance. The mammalian walking reflex works perfectly from birth.
00:53:53 <pikhq> ... Oh, and muscle strength. That too.
00:54:30 <elliott_> I'll walk YOUR mammalian reflex!
00:54:39 <Vorpal> elliott_, you need sleep
00:54:50 <Sgeo> Vorpal is turning into me!
00:54:50 <Vorpal> elliott_, I lerned to read your signs
00:55:23 <Vorpal> elliott_, more so than usual :P
00:55:25 <Sgeo> Telling elliott_ to go to sleep?
00:56:23 <Vorpal> <Sasha> I made those moons <-- uh
00:56:40 <Vorpal> Sasha, that flow around the smaller one looks wrong
00:56:51 <Vorpal> Sasha, not torches is it?
00:57:07 <Sasha> it's just the game files
00:57:13 <Sasha> I didn't make it in-game
00:57:24 <Sasha> I made it in Paint and put it in the thing
00:57:46 <Sasha> it's what rises after the sun's had its turn
00:57:56 <Sasha> the watch is edited to match
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01:00:24 <Vorpal> Sgeo, yes I know the normal moon
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01:01:10 <Vorpal> oh well, need to sleep.
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01:11:43 <Sgeo> TNG "Birthright"
01:11:59 <Sgeo> Should I bother watching, or should I stay in my room and let the comp charge a bit more?
01:12:03 <Sgeo> I think I'll watch
01:12:33 <Sgeo> Well, half-assedly watch
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01:13:44 <Sgeo> Why does the voice acting sounds crappy?
01:14:04 <Sgeo> Erm, I mean, they're not voice actors, ofc, but.. what's the term I want?
01:26:41 <Sgeo> It is late. It is time to sleep. I do not know what an inflection is.
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02:01:45 <Sgeo> Filler episode it looks like
02:01:59 <Sgeo> At least it might give some details on a past filler
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02:04:35 * Sgeo loves when questions are answered
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02:07:59 <Hiant> Has anyone here every used the programming language ocaml (objective caml)?
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02:29:16 <Sgeo> Hiant, probably
02:29:47 <Hiant> Sgeo, I figured, but I was wondering about its...practicality.
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06:31:30 <Ugo> Hello. I try translate to Russian this webcomix: http://xkcd.com/189 but don't understand what means "con". Can somebody explain it?
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06:40:52 <Sgeo> Constitution, as in.. physical ability to survive injury, I _think_
06:40:59 <Sgeo> (It's an RPG term)
06:41:14 <Sgeo> I don't really know much about those
06:41:38 <Sgeo> This is a really weird channel to join to ask that question, though
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06:50:17 <Ugo> Yeees! Exactly!! Thank you!
06:51:30 <Ugo> I'm dumb - it's was obviously! Con = constitution.
06:52:42 <Sgeo> You're welcome
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07:45:31 <Vorpal> ineiros, can you do a new map sometime today?
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08:37:54 <Vorpal> ineiros, you could time the topo one yeah
08:38:41 <Vorpal> ineiros, hm image size grows much faster than map size
08:39:13 <Vorpal> O(n) vs. O(n²) if you explore like a + shape
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08:41:53 <Vorpal> ineiros, was there any name for the south direction? There was "frigid north" "wild west", "exotic east", but I never heard any for south
08:51:08 <fizzie> Sunny south? Sandy south?
08:51:47 <fizzie> I tried to ask the Internet, but the results weren't very interesting: http://p.zem.fi/sfoo-south
09:04:51 <fizzie> Sunny is quite high up if I look for adjectives with a really ad-hoc method like http://p.zem.fi/sfoo-south-2
09:05:35 <fizzie> Possibly "scenic south" too.
09:58:15 <fizzie> Heh, Notch-blog: "SMP Health Update is out -- I’m expecting bugs on this one, so I’m monitoring the usual channels (irc, twitter, email) extra carefully. [--] [edit:] Wow, that broke the game. Hold on while I try to fix stuff."
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13:19:16 <Ilari> Ouch... I'm reading EU note about IPv6... Yeah, good on the paper, but on pracice...
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15:03:22 <cheater99> LOLZ: https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/idkjdjficifbfjjkdkiimioljbloddpl#
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16:07:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Has the server been upgraded?
16:07:18 <elliott> Please say "no but it works magically anyway".
16:07:44 <fizzie> Or if it has, ineiros has sneakily done it without notifying us.
16:07:56 <elliott> == is totally a valid way to write >=
16:08:02 <fizzie> Yes, I can't connect to the server with either the old or the new client.
16:08:20 <elliott> fizzie: Old one because the login fails, presumably, due to that being the only way to stop it upgrading?
16:08:23 <coppro> elliott: they're both categories, even!
16:08:33 <coppro> (category theory is awesome)
16:08:33 <ineiros> Haven't done anything to the server yet.
16:08:47 <fizzie> Yes, I tried the old one with the "wrong password" thing.
16:09:31 <fizzie> Might be a deliberate thing to make outdated versions just plain old stop working like that, who knows.
16:10:06 <elliott> fizzie: Might be. Seems a bit of a dick move, since I bought the damn game.
16:10:22 <elliott> fizzie: Seeing as the login is essentially DRM, and if Minecraft's servers ever go bye-bye permanently, we're all out of a game.
16:10:29 <elliott> (What made Notch think that was a good idea?)
16:10:41 <fizzie> Third-party servers don't do that check, I think.
16:10:50 <fizzie> But sure, it's a bit iffy.
16:11:10 <elliott> fizzie: Still get to have the client yelling at you for not being premium all the time. :)
16:11:36 <elliott> "Basically, its a backend for Gtk+ 3 that renders in a browser."
16:11:42 <elliott> because the web wasn't GUIified enough!
16:12:35 <elliott> "Each toplevel window is mapped to a canvas element, and the content in the windows is updated by streaming commands over a multipart/x-mixed-replace XMLHttpRequest that uses gzip Content-Encoding to compress the data. Window data is pushed as region copies (for scrolling) and image diffs. Images are sent as data: uris of uncompressed png data."
16:12:44 <elliott> Not even HTML-based; niiiiiiiiiice.
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16:13:03 <fizzie> He did say he'd ("probably") open-sourcify it when sales taper off; hopefully also in the case he manages to bankrupt that company of his and have minecraft.net go away. Still.
16:13:48 <elliott> fizzie: Will sales taper off?
16:14:01 <fizzie> They probably will if the servers go down. :p
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16:14:54 <elliott> fizzie: I have a feeling the code is a bit imperfect.
16:15:09 <elliott> He didn't have the foresight to make single-player a name for "connection to localhost". :p
16:15:49 <fizzie> Yes, well, "I had to disable leaves decaying again (sorry!) because it caused infinite loops in certain situations."
16:16:01 <fizzie> There's a good chance it's quite horrible.
16:16:38 <elliott> [[pvp. True by default. If this is set to false, players can’t hurt other players.
16:16:38 <elliott> spawn-monsters. True by default. Set to false to remove all monsters.
16:16:39 <elliott> spawn-animals. Also true by default. Set to false to remove all animals.]]
16:16:44 <elliott> No health disabling. Sigh.
16:16:49 <elliott> Ha, ha: [[Wow, that broke the game. Hold on while I try to fix stuff.]]
16:17:23 <fizzie> Obviously there's a reason he calls it alpha. (It's just a very public form of alpha.)
16:17:43 <elliott> fizzie: Well, yes, but let's be fair here, we are *paying* him for it. And it's not like we had a choice about paying him or not.
16:18:03 <elliott> fizzie: Anyway I don't mind bugginess; I *do* mind taking away freedoms like "running an older version" though.
16:18:48 <elliott> If mobs are invisible, ensure your difficulty setting is not peaceful. I was still being attacked by mobs, but couldn't see them. Once my difficulty was off peaceful, I could see them again."
16:19:12 <fizzie> ineiros: Has the server console said anything interesting for the connection attempts?
16:19:42 <ineiros> I'll check later, I'm on the move now.
16:19:49 <fizzie> This should all be on #esoteric-minecraft (no, I didn't make that) anyway. :p
16:19:58 <elliott> fizzie: Well, the error it spits back is "hurr ur client is too young".
16:20:04 <elliott> Which is an interesting kind of arithmetic.
16:20:24 <fizzie> You have to be this tall to ride.
16:27:01 <ineiros> fizzie: Do you already have a process to byte-patch the server?-)
16:27:54 <elliott> ineiros: I suggest you decompile the classes, find something that looks like it talks to minecraft.net, remove it, find something that looks at the client version, remove it, and recompile. And hope it doesn't verify itself. :p
16:28:35 <elliott> And also try not to think how annoying that will be to do.
16:29:00 <ineiros> That's an option in the serrver itself, but there's no way I'm activating that.
16:29:15 <ineiros> Disabling the user-checking, that is.
16:29:45 <ineiros> Ah, the version check. I'd expect that it's necessary.
16:29:50 <elliott> ineiros: Why? I mean, apart from the fact that it lets oklopol in.
16:30:00 <elliott> (But yeah, that's what I meant.)
16:30:06 <elliott> ineiros: But, err, what I'm saying is
16:30:12 <ineiros> It also lets anyone in as anyone else.
16:30:21 <elliott> Who else knows the address?
16:30:34 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: Has the server been upgraded? <-- I have no clue
16:30:37 <elliott> ineiros: If it only works with the older client, then you could remove the minecraft.net check and we could just use an invalid password forever so we can keep the old client. As impractical as that is.
16:30:43 <elliott> ineiros: That's why I suggested it.
16:30:57 <elliott> Although I don't see how anyone without the server address could get to it anyway.
16:31:04 <Vorpal> elliott, patch client to login with fake version
16:31:12 <Vorpal> elliott, and not download upgrade
16:31:13 <elliott> Vorpal: Patching the server is more practical.
16:31:24 <Vorpal> elliott, presumably the protocol changed
16:31:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, it's likely that the client is actually incompatible with the new server.
16:31:29 <ineiros> Maybe Notch will add more options later.
16:31:41 <elliott> ineiros: Is that code for "yer gettin' health"? :p
16:31:47 <elliott> Skyway temporarily death trap.
16:31:51 <Vorpal> elliott, yes which is why you patch it to login in but then not report the proper last version
16:31:59 <Vorpal> elliott, all that should be in the launcher
16:32:05 <Vorpal> elliott, and thus be feasible
16:32:12 <elliott> "An escalator can never break: it can only become stairs. You would never see an "Escalator Temporarily Out Of Order" sign, just "Escalator Temporarily Stairs. Sorry for the convenience"." --Mitch Hedberg
16:32:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Have fun with that.
16:32:43 <Vorpal> elliott, the new version makes minecarts work
16:32:47 <Vorpal> so I think upgrading is a good idea
16:33:05 <elliott> Already upgraded (but w/ backup.)
16:33:17 <Vorpal> going to check version history page
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16:33:25 <Vorpal> elliott, no monsters or pvp I hope?
16:33:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Uh, yes, they're in the upgrade.
16:33:41 <Vorpal> elliott, they are options iirc
16:33:42 <elliott> The server has not been updated yet.
16:33:45 <Vorpal> so did ineiros turn those on
16:33:48 <elliott> The server has not been updated yet.
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16:35:21 <Vorpal> "I had to disable leaves decaying again" argh
16:36:16 <Sasha2_> that was a good thing in MC
16:36:24 <Sasha2_> I could have tree farms and cut all the wood
16:36:24 <Vorpal> Sasha2_, that they decayed? yeah
16:36:35 <Sasha2_> and the leaves would decay and drop saplings
16:36:44 <Sasha2_> and I could replenish the fuck out of that resource
16:36:48 <Vorpal> did they drop saplings when decaying?
16:40:06 <Sasha2_> I am designing my own MC texture pack
16:41:57 <Sasha2_> How does one make a thing black and white in Photoshop?
16:42:19 <Vorpal> no clue, I know how in gimp though
16:42:42 <Vorpal> well if you are trained in photoshop then why do you need to ask? ;P
16:42:57 <Sasha2_> that's a human trait, right?
16:43:18 <Vorpal> yes. Unreliable storage is very typical of humans
16:43:30 <fizzie> I'm sure there's a desaturation option; alternatively, it has all those modifier layer things.
16:43:44 <Vorpal> I suggest using RS encoding for your brain
16:43:52 <Vorpal> that should allow you to recreate lost info
16:44:00 <Sasha2_> So, I have this gradient that determines what color the leaves of trees are
16:44:12 <Sasha2_> and I want to make it purple, instead of green
16:44:30 <fizzie> You could just rotate the hue.
16:44:50 <fizzie> I can only tell how you do that in Gimp. :p
16:45:23 <fizzie> But I'm also equally sure there's some hue adjustment thing, or, again, modifier layers. :p
16:45:47 <fizzie> Isn't it supposed to be intuitive to use and all that? (At least when compared to, say, Gimp.)
16:45:55 <Vorpal> Sasha2_, why would you expect someone here to use photoshop?
16:46:02 <elliott> Vorpal: "- Arrows do no damage, they bounce off of enemies and other players as though they were a solid object."
16:46:11 <elliott> "- Respawning appears to make it so you are invisible to other players." <-- YES PLEASE
16:46:14 <Vorpal> elliott, single player too?
16:46:20 <elliott> Sasha2_: wait wait wait you didn't go onto a BAY did you of PIRATES
16:46:28 <elliott> Vorpal: "- I'm not sure whats causing this but something is causing players to desynchronize pretty badly, this often requires the client to reconnect in order to resync with everyone else."
16:46:33 <elliott> "- We had an issue where a minecart fell through the floor entirely after extended travel time."
16:46:38 <elliott> "- Items despawning when a player is killed."
16:46:47 <Sasha2_> No, elliott, I just stole it from my school.
16:47:00 <elliott> ooh THEFT, so now they don't have photoshop any more?
16:47:10 <Vorpal> elliott, I think you can duplicate it
16:47:10 <elliott> you RIPPED THE BITS out of their harddrive and DEPRIVED them of it, like a thief
16:47:17 <elliott> Vorpal: well it would be copying then, he said stole
16:47:22 <Sasha2_> No, they just have 119 copies now.
16:47:40 <Vorpal> oh does it do crazy DRM?
16:47:52 <Sasha2_> And it's not really stole, so much as "hey a shipment of photoshop you don't need, can I have one" "Sure!"
16:47:59 <elliott> well, standard serial key stuff
16:48:03 <Sasha2_> They ordered 120 seperate boxes
16:48:17 <Sasha2_> 120 seperate copies of photoshop
16:48:18 <elliott> (1) why is there a package for the gnome about box
16:48:19 <Vorpal> Sasha2_, I thought you could get volume licenses if you are a company or a school
16:48:27 <elliott> (not to the new gnome, just an *update*)
16:48:33 <Vorpal> elliott, check changelog for the package?
16:48:34 <elliott> how can they *possibly* get that wrong
16:48:35 <Sasha2_> Vorpal: Like I said, they didn't need it
16:48:45 <elliott> Vorpal: too late it's already out of my updater and i'm lazy :P
16:48:52 <Vorpal> Sasha2_, yes but why on earth didn't they get *one* cd + volume license
16:49:04 <Sasha2_> they are not good at thinking
16:49:44 <Sasha2_> I don't really care, it's mine now
16:50:09 <Vorpal> elliott, not in ubuntu yet at least
16:50:26 <elliott> Vorpal: well this is Debian testing, which is more recent than ubuntu ;)
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16:51:01 <elliott> let's see if i can find a decent edit sequence implementation on hackage
16:51:26 <Vorpal> elliott, testing that could explain it
16:51:35 <Vorpal> elliott, edit sequence?
16:51:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Debian testing, also known as "the stable Debian"
16:51:49 <nooga> i'm trying to figure out how would i organize hi-res minecraft-like game
16:51:57 <elliott> Vorpal: (Debian unstable is called "the testing Debian", Debian experimental is called "the unstable Debian",
16:52:06 <elliott> nooga: and Debian stable is called "hi this is 2005 speaking")
16:52:12 <Vorpal> elliott, I always thought that "woody" was a very fitting name for debian stable when woody was that
16:52:29 <elliott> Is wood old or something? :p
16:52:36 <elliott> # edit-distance library and programs: Levenshtein and restricted Damerau-Levenshtein edit distances
16:52:47 <Vorpal> elliott, oh maybe just a Swedish meaning of "woody" then
16:53:01 <elliott> # made or consisting of (entirely or in part) or employing wood; "a wooden box"; "an ancient cart with wooden wheels"
16:53:01 <elliott> # lacking ease or grace; "the actor's performance was wooden"; "a wooden smile"
16:53:13 <elliott> can't find any idiomatic definitions of woody
16:53:33 <elliott> "2. Time to get revenge on griefers, and ban them for life.
16:53:33 <elliott> 3. There will no longer be any griefers after a few more days."
16:53:43 <elliott> i swear these people cry themselves to sleep every night because their minecraft sculpture was GRIEF'd
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16:54:01 <Vorpal> elliott, well, in Swedish "träig" which is the translation of "woody" has some connotations of the second meaning but also of something stuck in old habits. Depends a bit on context.
16:54:12 <elliott> perdito: are you thumb mature?
16:55:41 <perdito> sry..not familiar with..ehm..this kind of expression
16:56:32 <elliott> perdito: ah. i was just trying to scare off the other type that come here
16:56:38 <elliott> (the esoteric-as-in-spirituality kind.)
16:56:44 <elliott> it, er, does not always work :)
16:57:08 <perdito> yess.. but there felt a lil bit spooky
16:57:20 <elliott> our topic is ... a long story
16:57:48 <perdito> u have to know my english is a little bit corroded
16:58:46 <perdito> need a little more practise.. if u excuse
17:05:03 <elliott> Vorpal: "# Drowning enabled in multiplayer."
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17:06:14 <elliott> still -- "# Made players riding carts or boats a long way receive terrain updates."
17:07:15 -!- digger has joined.
17:09:00 <elliott> Oh, and will you be able to turn off decaying leaves manually? Cause I made a whole city out of leaves and now I'm kinda worried about it."
17:09:08 -!- kar8nga has joined.
17:10:22 <perdito> so you're developing games? :)
17:10:38 <elliott> perdito: no, we're just addicted to Minecraft :)
17:10:58 <elliott> perdito: we're http://esolangs.org/
17:11:06 <elliott> wiki is spam infested at the moment
17:11:58 <perdito> yes.. the purpose is kind off abstract
17:12:28 <Gregor> Dude, my thumb is so mature it's currently explaining mortality to its children.
17:14:18 <Vorpal> <elliott> Oh, and will you be able to turn off decaying leaves manually? Cause I made a whole city out of leaves and now I'm kinda worried about it." <-- err. what?
17:14:28 <elliott> Vorpal: quote from blog comment
17:14:54 <Vorpal> they used to decay before.
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17:15:24 <fizzie> Leaves still decay in multiplayer just fine if you just set them on fire.
17:15:57 * elliott decides to write the BF interpreter part of this in C
17:16:18 <perdito> i think "erisian programming" would fit better
17:24:06 <elliott> "Pressure plates can be triggered by minecarts. Wooden plates will trigger whenever any kind of cart passes over them, whereas stone plates are only triggered if the cart has a rider inside (either a player or a mob). Pressure plates do not act as Minecart Tracks, so the cart will stop on the plate unless it has very high speed."
17:24:07 <oklopol> we should change it before everybody starts using "esoteric"
17:24:12 <elliott> Vorpal: sounded cool until that last sentence.
17:24:15 <elliott> oklopol: yeah what with those neologisms
17:24:57 <elliott> ineiros: so what's the cost of a custom sprite on that there server
17:28:04 <fizzie> What sort of custom sprite are you plannering?
17:28:49 <fizzie> I don't think the clients download any graphics from the server, anyway.
17:28:56 <elliott> fizzie: Well, I see you and Vorpal's.
17:29:04 <fizzie> That's just minecraft.net/skin/
17:29:09 <fizzie> Or minecraft.net -> "Preferences".
17:29:18 <elliott> Oh. That transmits across the server?
17:29:26 <elliott> fizzie: I was thinking, specifically, random fully-saturated pixels all over my body.
17:29:30 <elliott> I guess it is not that flexible?
17:29:48 <elliott> LOOK OUT HUMANS, HERE COMES NOISE
17:30:30 <Sasha2_> Woop! Found a leaf decay mod for minecraft!
17:34:46 <elliott> fizzie: I am, uh, semi-transparent.
17:34:47 <elliott> How... how did that happen.
17:35:22 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, hey, that isn't it, http://minecraft.net/skin/skin.jsp?user=fizzie
17:35:51 <elliott> fizzie: So, uh, am I *meant* to be able to become transparent?
17:36:02 <elliott> http://minecraft.net/skin/skin.jsp?user=ehird
17:36:05 <fizzie> I don't know. I wouldn't *think* so.
17:36:21 <elliott> I will now become invisible.
17:36:29 <fizzie> Except for the head accessory slot, that one I think is supposed to have alpha.
17:36:49 <elliott> fizzie: I've just filled the whole image with random pixels. :p
17:36:53 <fizzie> Having it for the actual texture sounds like everyone'd just go invisible all the time.
17:37:19 <Sasha2_> hmm, actually transparency doesn't work in-game on sking
17:37:30 <fizzie> Yes, one would expect it not to.
17:37:39 <fizzie> I guess it's just the viewer, then?
17:39:00 <fizzie> Based on some of those at http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Skin there is transparency for the head-accessory bits, though.
17:39:28 <Sasha2_> for the head-accesory bits only though
17:40:11 <elliott> What does it show as in-game, then?
17:40:21 <Sasha2_> http://minecraft.net/skin/skin.jsp?user=SaintWombat my skin
17:40:34 <elliott> Ha @ the creeper one. I think I might use that.
17:41:57 <Sasha2_> for a while I had a creeper in a siot
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17:47:39 <Gregor> I am the only person on Earth who can receive emails with the subject "T-Rex has Miniature Genitals" that is not spam.
17:47:58 <Gregor> *are, or *an email, whichever.
17:59:28 <ineiros> So, maybe I should do something about the server.
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18:03:06 <Vorpal> elliott, where did you get that about arrows being broken from?
18:03:47 <Vorpal> ineiros, what about this: update it, turn *off* pvp and monsters. Then give us each a chest of diamond spades and diamond pickaxes as compensation for loss of feature? ;P
18:04:16 <Vorpal> ineiros, (that is one big chest of each)
18:06:37 <elliott> omfg omfg omfg omfg omfg omfg omfg omfg
18:06:50 <elliott> and i hear monster noises NEARBY rather than FROM OUTSIDE
18:07:14 <Vorpal> elliott, be careful. And I assume your house is lit?
18:07:37 <elliott> i am scared to go down my mine.
18:07:55 <Vorpal> elliott, ITYM: switch to peaceful
18:08:00 <Vorpal> since you wanted the server that way
18:08:37 <elliott> Vorpal: no no no i like single player as easy
18:09:13 <elliott> it's just i hear them moving
18:09:22 <elliott> which uh, makes me think they might not... be outside
18:10:19 <elliott> IT'S RIGHT OUTSIDE MY MOTHERFUCKING DOOR
18:10:52 <elliott> Vorpal: does, the, uh, door protect me, during melee with a creeper
18:11:27 <elliott> what if i ACCIDENTALLY OPEN THE DOOOR FFSSFSFSFFF
18:11:39 <Vorpal> elliott, iron door with button and that won't happen
18:11:56 <Vorpal> if you design your house stupid...
18:12:01 <Vorpal> elliott, it is probably hiding out of sight
18:12:06 <elliott> Vorpal: dude, i had to make a house on the first night
18:12:10 <elliott> Vorpal: i did NOT have iron, that's for sure
18:12:20 <elliott> never go near the front door EVERRRR
18:12:23 <Vorpal> elliott, so how many nights passed since?
18:12:36 <elliott> Vorpal: this is the third day.
18:12:39 <elliott> i've had two nights in here.
18:12:45 <elliott> both have been spent digging mine shafts and making chests and stuff.
18:14:09 <elliott> thankfully i have enough stuffs to last me a while, lots of wood and sand
18:14:30 <elliott> i think i'm doin it rong with mining though, i'm just bashing away the walls of the shaft at random
18:14:43 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed you need a plan
18:14:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I suggest reading the forum topic on that
18:14:58 <Vorpal> elliott, to find efficient mining patterns
18:15:07 <elliott> Vorpal: i know there's certain depths blah blah blah
18:15:16 <elliott> Vorpal: but, say, right now i literally just have a section of the wall missing at the top, because there was a lot of coal there
18:15:21 <elliott> aren't i meant to have secondary shafts? :)
18:15:45 <Vorpal> elliott, no I'm talking about stuff like one corridor and then mining 1x2 corridors from it's sides. These should be separated by two blocks
18:15:52 <Vorpal> then do the same for the layer above. Except offset
18:16:25 <fizzie> ineiros: If you want to consider existing mods, http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1012&t=23340 adds /warp with specifiable warp-locations, and /item which can be used to get any out of whitelisted items, and so on; something like that might make things less annoying.
18:16:30 <elliott> i don't see why, why not just keep digging the walls :)
18:16:58 <elliott> fizzie: Say, you could make a mod to do "health decreased => set health to maximum", right?
18:17:09 <elliott> "hMod provides an extensive plugin framework and has an impressive list of plugins already"
18:17:32 <Vorpal> elliott, sure. if maximum efficiency isn't your goal
18:17:51 <elliott> Vorpal: I just want materials. :p
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18:18:13 <elliott> Vorpal: My main problem is that I'm essentially just dipping in at random points... I need x-ray vision or something. :p
18:18:27 <Vorpal> elliott, the pattern I mentioned is for targeting ore
18:18:34 <elliott> Oh what the bugger, two stairs on the same level.
18:18:38 <Vorpal> if you want cobble, then just digging away everything is best
18:18:38 <elliott> I done fail'd at something.
18:18:47 <elliott> Vorpal: I want iron and coal and stuff.
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18:19:12 <elliott> Is there a faster way to pick stairs?
18:19:13 <Vorpal> elliott, well obsidian is special. Spelunking is probably your best bet then
18:19:23 <Goose124> I came up with this for my first bf program, but it isn't always accurate
18:19:25 <Goose124> ++++[>++++++++++++<-]>>,[<+>-],[<+>-]<.
18:20:03 <Goose124> I was wondering why it did that...
18:20:28 <elliott> Goose124: Have you checked http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms?
18:20:45 <elliott> If you find a discrepancy between your algorithm and the one on the page, that's likely to be your bug.
18:23:21 <elliott> Vorpal: hmm, the danger with mining horizontally as well as downwards is that you could reach the edge of the mountain...
18:25:24 <Vorpal> elliott, oh are you up in a mountain and mining?
18:25:27 <elliott> Goose124: no, minecraft; we're not insane enough for dwarf fortress
18:25:29 <ineiros> Heh, I died immediately when I logged in.
18:25:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess you only found coal then?
18:25:37 <elliott> Vorpal: my hole^Whome is on the side of a cave/mountain, yes.
18:25:40 <elliott> Goose124: yeah but we're noobs :P
18:26:00 <Goose124> IT doesnt have enough features though...
18:26:00 <Vorpal> elliott, you won't find iron more than a few blocks above sea level
18:26:12 <ineiros> I think I might consider dwarf fortress. When I get a new computer.
18:26:22 <elliott> ok, now i have three levels of mine shaft :P
18:26:26 <elliott> Vorpal: that's why i'm digging downwards.
18:26:30 <elliott> i'm not actually very high up afaik.
18:26:37 <fizzie> ineiros: Yes, you need a high-end gaming GPU for Dwarf Fortress.
18:26:38 <ineiros> Okay, the server is back on.
18:26:42 <Vorpal> ineiros, did that result in loss of inventory?
18:26:50 <elliott> fizzie: You need a bloody good CPU.
18:26:56 <elliott> Vorpal: I need iron soon, though; stone tools suck so much.
18:27:06 <fizzie> ineiros: How did you set the pvp/critters flags?
18:27:06 <ineiros> Vorpal: Of course. I didn't know where I died, though. :)
18:27:22 <Vorpal> ineiros, anyway did you turn off pvp and monsters?
18:27:24 <ineiros> fizzie: Yeah, DF is a bit CPU-intensive.
18:27:31 <Vorpal> ineiros, otherwise I won't connect again I know that
18:28:20 <ineiros> fizzie: no monsters, no pvp.
18:28:36 <Vorpal> ineiros, and what about chest of diamond tools?
18:28:45 <elliott> "Turn off PvP and monsters or I'll DEPRIVE YOU OF ME!"
18:28:49 <Vorpal> ineiros, since I assume the throw away and pick up trick no longer works
18:29:09 <fizzie> All my stuff is now at ineiros' dig, I think.
18:29:13 <fizzie> I can see my compass floating there. :p
18:29:23 <Vorpal> well I was at home I think
18:29:29 <ineiros> Okay, I can share some free tools at some point.
18:29:35 <ineiros> But I'll be away for a while again.
18:29:39 <Vorpal> ineiros, or what about that mod that fizzie mentioned?
18:29:47 <fizzie> Uh... respawned, and now I can't see much of anything.
18:30:03 <fizzie> There's the sky and clouds, but no ground.
18:30:19 <fizzie> Well, /home fixed that. Weird, still.
18:30:25 <elliott> fizzie: Known bug, I think.
18:30:47 <elliott> It would be nice to have an hMod plugin that automatically replenishes all health.
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18:34:03 <Vorpal> elliott, did you say chests were broken?
18:34:18 <Vorpal> elliott, quoting bug list
18:34:45 <Vorpal> elliott, something gone on logout iirc?
18:35:01 <Goose124> How can I add double digits >.>
18:36:54 <elliott> Goose124: (The algorithm on the page will add any two numbers that can fit in BF cells.)
18:37:19 <elliott> ineiros: If I mod the server to add healthlessness back in, will you use it?
18:39:24 <Sgeo> PH isn't here :(
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18:40:19 <elliott> olsner: addEvent(HEALTH_CHANGED, (fn obj => obj.health = HEALTH_MAX)); :P
18:40:26 <Sgeo> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html
18:40:27 <elliott> (In an imaginary dialect of Java with lambdas.)
18:40:34 <Sgeo> (Note: Spoilery)
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18:41:21 <Vorpal> elliott, there is probably a bit more than that
18:41:38 <Vorpal> elliott, part might be client side (yes seriously)
18:41:50 <elliott> Vorpal: I doubt it. The other server mods do similar things...
18:41:54 <elliott> Vorpal: And there are a lot of them.
18:42:08 <elliott> I highly suspect one of them has a /heal player command, which is basically The Same Thing.
18:42:09 <Vorpal> elliott, so why not just use one of them?
18:42:18 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't think any of them has a healthless option...
18:42:31 <elliott> hMod has plugins, but really, it's simpler to just mod the server than to install a mod *and* write a plugin.
18:42:35 <elliott> Especially if all you want is the one thing.
18:42:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I want infinite tools
18:43:04 <Vorpal> elliott, or a way to get replacements
18:43:10 <elliott> Vorpal: That is the tool's health.
18:43:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Apparently it's the same bug as no health.
18:43:21 <Vorpal> elliott, but what about monster health?
18:43:32 <elliott> addEvent(HEALTH_CHANGED, (fn obj => obj.health = HEALTH_MAX));
18:43:36 <Vorpal> elliott, or animal health
18:43:52 <Vorpal> elliott, if the fire doesn't work on them ineiros won't accept it
18:44:07 <fizzie> The throw-away-a-tool + pick-it-up still reset my pickaxe.
18:44:07 <Sgeo> I don't get "tone" though
18:44:08 <elliott> Vorpal: The fire seems to be not health-based.
18:44:17 <elliott> They die immediately after some time; I think it destroys them or something.
18:44:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, whatever, I'm just asking ineiros if he'll use it if I do it.
18:44:28 <elliott> It shouldn't be too difficult.
18:44:52 <elliott> And I can add fancy things, like /digwhereimstandingrightdowntolevel0 for admins. :p
18:44:55 <elliott> (Cough cough stairs cough.)
18:45:36 <Vorpal> elliott, you will probably need to maintain it, updates to fix the invisibility bug and so on are probably likely
18:45:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh noes, I have to maintain a diff :P
18:46:22 <Vorpal> elliott, against a code base with obfuscation. And where the obfuscation scheme change regularly
18:46:51 <elliott> Vorpal: Other mod authors manage, and theirs have 10x the features or more.
18:47:01 <Sgeo> Please gouge my eyes out
18:47:07 <Sgeo> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html
18:47:14 <Sgeo> erm, I mean http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Learning-Something-New.aspx
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18:50:04 <elliott> Vorpal: Are you connected?
18:54:03 <fizzie> Or -- a crazy idea here -- you could just wait for the official server mod API that's been promised a couple of times already.
18:54:24 <elliott> fizzie: And be without a usable skyway in the meantime?
18:54:32 <fizzie> The skyway is perfectly usable.
18:54:50 <fizzie> That just means the skyway is for real men.
18:55:09 <elliott> fizzie: Anyway, it's not like modding it would be *omg insanely difficult*.
18:55:32 <elliott> fizzie: I could always code to a stable API by using hMod's plugin system, and assuming hMod will be updated for the new servers for N time to come.
18:55:34 <fizzie> Well, if you *want*, sure.
18:55:49 <elliott> That would also be less obfuscatoarotijeortjeiortoejirt, too.
18:56:27 <fizzie> Well, hMod's version numbers are already at 124 or so, so it seems to be actively maintained. (And it's against this latest server version already.)
18:56:51 <elliott> fizzie: Sounds like a Plan, then. But that will only work if its API lets me hook into the code that gets called for a health decrease.
18:59:03 <fizzie> There is at least a Player.setHealth method in its javadocs. Though with the comment "This doesn't work and only screws things up."
19:01:37 <Goose124> since it's an esoteric language
19:01:54 <Goose124> should I use complex code instead?
19:02:12 <elliott> Goose124: I suppose if you really want to. :p
19:02:22 <elliott> fizzie: I'm more likely to want to go into the "decreaseHealthYo()" code and just wipe it out.
19:07:02 <perdito|afk> yes.. where's the joy in life if one cannot die
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19:08:30 <Goose124> Which is better: >++++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<--- or ++[>>++++++[<++++++++>-]<<-]>+
19:08:51 <Goose124> what's the closest power of 3 to 96....
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19:10:22 <perdito> Goose124: both suck pretty well
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19:10:55 <elliott> Goose124: 3^4, if you were wondering.
19:11:41 <Goose124> perdito, does that mean you can give me a better one? :D
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19:22:45 <elliott> fizzie: http://i.imgur.com/Ikh7a.png
19:23:05 <fizzie> That does look pretty unnatural.
19:27:39 <Goose124> gonna make a fibonacci sequence generator then
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19:34:38 <Vorpal> ineiros, full list: http://sprunge.us/dBVN
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19:51:06 <Ilari> Heh... Make BF program that prints fibbonacci sequence, with numbers separated by spaces.
19:52:28 <Ilari> The kind that does not halt nor overflow...
19:53:16 <Ilari> BF has unbounded memory.
19:53:36 <oklopol> then.. how can you overflow?
19:55:05 <Ilari> The idea is to print larger and larger numbers...
19:55:33 <Sgeo> The Futurama Holiday Spectacular was very meh
19:56:22 <Ilari> The point is not to overflow if 2^8, 2^16, 2^24, 2^32, or so is reached...
19:56:43 <Ilari> Heh... What is period of fibbonacci sequence mod N?
19:57:49 <oklopol> dunno, but if any number is 0 mod N then the period becomes 1 right?
19:58:07 <oklopol> could that be true, sounds like something i would've known
19:58:59 <Ilari> if N = 2, period seems to be 3 (1, 1, 0).
19:59:50 <oklopol> in fact if you reach 0 after k (mod n), then you'll get the fibonacci sequence times k after that
19:59:51 <Ilari> For N = 3, 1, 1, 2, 0, 2, 2, 1, 0.... (8).
20:02:24 <Ilari> Period of 1 would imply zero values. And let final two non-zero values be a and b. Now a + b = 0 (mod N) and b + 0 = 0 (mod N). But this impiles b = 0, which is impossible.
20:03:15 <Ilari> Therefore, period is at least 2 and at most N^2 - 1.
20:03:49 <oklopol> but i'm sure it's something pretty
20:05:50 <Ilari> N = 4: 1, 1, 2, 3, 1, 0 (6). N = 5 gives 1, 1, 2, 3, 0, 3, 3, 1, 4, 0, 4, 4, 3, 2, 0, 2, 2, 4, 1, 0... (20)...
20:07:42 <Ilari> Is there such sequence that doesn't have '1, 0' in it?
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20:09:07 <elliott> <Ilari> Therefore, period is at least 2 and at most N^2 - 1.
20:09:12 <elliott> It's probably something to do with phi. :p
20:13:24 <Ilari> 3, 8, 6, 20, 24, 16, 12, 24, 60, 10, 24, 28, 48, 40... Let's search OEIS...
20:13:59 <Ilari> A001175 Pisano periods (or Pisano numbers): period of Fibonacci numbers mod n
20:14:34 <oklopol> that is a very beautiful sequence!
20:14:52 <oklopol> in fact it's my favorite sequence ever
20:15:32 <Ilari> 1, 3, 8, 6, 20, 24, 16, 12, 24, 60, 10, 24, 28, 48, 40, 24, 36, 24, 18, 60, 16, 30, 48, 24, 100, 84, 72, 48, 14, 120, 30, 48, 40, 36, 80, 24, 76, 18, 56, 60, 40, 48, 88, 30, 120, 48, 32, 24, 112, 300, 72, 84, 108, 72, 20, 48, 72, 42, 58, 120, 60, 30, 48, 96, 140, 120, 136 ...
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20:17:23 <elliott> someone hook wolfram alpha up to oeis
20:17:35 <elliott> period of (fibonacci mod N)
20:19:09 <Ilari> Haha... If N is 1999, the the period is 666... ):-)
20:32:36 <oklopol> that's a really cool sequence
20:33:00 <elliott> oklopol: but what about the periods of the pisano sequence mod n
20:33:06 <elliott> we have a whole infinite TOWER of lovly sequences here
20:33:09 <oklopol> how about the what are they called, the tails before the period?
20:33:17 <elliott> now just define inverse mod, and we can have it extend downwards too, below fibonacci
20:34:37 <oklopol> so how about different starting points than 1, 1
20:34:48 <elliott> oklopol's gotta hate me 'cuz i'm writing a hill climbing program and calling it genetic programming
20:34:55 <oklopol> Ilari: wanna try if the sequences are as beautiful, and whether they're similar to pisano
20:35:01 <elliott> in my defence, i plan to add breeding of brainfuck programs as soon as i figure out how to make that make any sense at all
20:35:15 <elliott> oklopol: omg we have sequences indexed by Z^2 * N how awesome is that
20:35:25 <oklopol> hill climbing is not genetic programming!!
20:35:28 <elliott> oklopol: (i.e. fibonacci, pisano, metapisano, ... and the two starting values)
20:35:35 <elliott> oklopol: <elliott> in my defence, i plan to add breeding of brainfuck programs as soon as i figure out how to make that make any sense at all
20:35:44 <elliott> oklopol: it's hill climbing of PROGRAMS btw
20:36:22 <oklopol> that's the most sensible definition
20:36:31 <elliott> oklopol: yes, well, gimme an algorithm to breed two arbitrary bf programs :P
20:37:12 <elliott> why am i doing this in haskell xD
20:37:14 <oklopol> i don't have one. i didn't say genetic programming works well on bf programs.
20:37:19 <elliott> oklopol: WELL MAKE IT WORK
20:37:43 <oklopol> the problem is programs are very discontinuous in how close they are to correct
20:38:08 <oklopol> which i'm sure was news to everyone here, glad i said that.
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20:39:10 <oklopol> anyway genetic programming is exactly how you might fix that, you combine two already working components; of course you will have to somehow be able to give points to programs that... do something, even though that something has nothing to do with the actual problem being solved
20:39:40 <oklopol> but my gut's intuition says a smart guy could totally gene up a search
20:40:30 <elliott> unfortunately i'm not a smart guy
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20:45:44 <Phantom_Hoover> [[The esolang community is active sporadically, and topics of discussion range from debate as to whether a language is Turing-complete to how one would go about representing abstract and hard to visualise mathematical concepts in a programming environment.]] — Wikipedia, on us.
20:46:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a deep, irresistible temptation to append "and Minecraft" to that list.
20:46:43 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, in the recent past, you would have been adding "and Robozzle"
20:47:39 <fizzie> There was a bit of a Robozzle-mania.
20:47:45 <fizzie> PH; The server's been updated.
20:47:48 <Sgeo> http://robozzle.com/
20:47:51 <fizzie> PH; You might insta-die when you connect.
20:48:03 <fizzie> PH; Most of us did, except Vorpal with his fancy metal armour.
20:48:09 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, so the days of hurling ourselves from the top to the bottom of the map are over?
20:48:27 <fizzie> PH; At least in my case, I got my inventory spewed out, and when I walked back to get it, all the items had turned invisible.
20:49:05 <fizzie> Later reconnectings had no problems.
20:49:11 <oklopol> why would Vorpal have an armor
20:49:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also, if you die, you go to "limbo" and have to /home. From then on, you are invisible until reconnect.
20:49:22 <fizzie> oklopol: Better safe than sorry!
20:49:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also, the door to the temple doesn't work most of the time.
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20:49:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do you make bread now again?
20:49:31 <oklopol> i thought you didn't have health
20:49:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also, there's blocks of diamond in the chest; take 3 or 4 at the absolute max.
20:49:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, smelting wheat?
20:49:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also, the lava pits are now Unfun(TM).
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20:50:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: Craft a horizontal row of three wheat.
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20:50:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Various things; lava, falling... why?
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20:51:13 <fizzie> PH: Interestingly, the tool-decay bug/feature didn't get fixed, you can still refresh your tools with the drop-pickup.
20:51:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: When the next update comes out -- since this one is *insanely* buggy, everyone agrees -- I'm going to see about making a server mod that automatically replenishes all health.
20:51:55 <Sgeo> PH, did you see my link?
20:51:56 <elliott> And then we can have the Good Old Days back once again! Mwahahaha!
20:52:06 <elliott> (It will also ensure that tools stay charged, without having to throw them away and all that silliness.)
20:53:22 <oklopol> tools should break, you should just be able to program bots that bring you new ones
20:53:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, other bug: animals no longer makes those "distressed" noises when you hit them
20:53:55 <fizzie> Maybe he just changed all the animals to masochists.
20:54:07 <oklopol> Vorpal gets no satisfaction this way
20:54:10 <fizzie> (I've never played with sound, so I wouldn't notice.)
20:55:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's mine. Feel free to contribute to the confusion.
20:55:39 <fizzie> Yes, he wanted to make the sheep/pig hybrids... uh, bleat-squeal.
20:55:40 <elliott> Try closing and opening them for confusion.
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21:11:39 <Sgeo> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/kodu/
21:11:52 <Sgeo> I know it's for kids but I can't help wanting to make a BF interpreter
21:17:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Vorpal: This is your Minecraft. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EplEzRvZPBA This is your Minecraft on drugs.
21:17:21 <elliott> So glad Notch didn't go with that after all :P
21:17:39 <elliott> Dear god I feel woozy just wtaching it.
21:17:46 <elliott> WHAT HAVE YOU GOT AGAINST PHYSICS
21:19:43 <Sgeo> What's so terrible about it?
21:20:04 <Vorpal> elliott, will check soon
21:20:17 <Sgeo> What's so non-Euclidean about this?
21:21:17 <Sgeo> I'm going to go install Kodu
21:23:14 <Sgeo> Dear Microsoft download site: Why do you still have an option showing 56k users how long it will take to download?
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21:27:53 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, fizzie (I think) made this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKmkkIBjHlI&feature=related
21:28:18 <Sgeo> More interestingly, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDWmujQ3W_I&NR=1
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21:29:25 <Sgeo> It's someone in here
21:31:31 <elliott> The only Pole in here is asiekierka and he's too stupid to make either of those. :P
21:32:14 <elliott> Or someone affiliated with his group, lol.
21:32:19 <olsner> I think nooga is a pole too?
21:32:50 <elliott> olsner: yes, but I correlated "Team ASCII" and asiekierka.
21:32:59 <elliott> my probability of it being that specific Team ASCII is 0.99 or so.
21:33:03 <elliott> "It was first announced by asiekierka before the code was released to the public, bragging in #minecraft that he had the code, which, alongside with other behaviour, resulted in a ban." --Minepedia
21:33:18 <elliott> The code in question was written by GreaseMonkey. :p
21:34:56 <olsner> hmm, 3000 unread mails left, I don't think I'll get all of them gone through tonight
21:37:19 <elliott> Okay, my internets have *definitely* turned into an echo chamber, just made the final connection that has interconnected... hmm... yes, I am pretty sure every single social group I am in or know of on the Internet has now been completely connected with very few hops from any group to another.
21:38:05 <elliott> Especially as "every social group I know of" (discounting tiny ones or ones I only "know" of in the sense of knowing about them for one second and immediately forgetting) is a *lot*.
21:38:50 <olsner> doesn't that happen to everyone though? degrees of bacon and all that
21:39:27 <elliott> olsner: yes, but we're talking about things I can see absolutely no connection to each other with, via any path, being connected by *one* hop.
21:40:08 <olsner> hmm, but don't you connect all these groups too? by one hop?
21:40:08 <elliott> And people I know from one social group spontaneously entering another, very different one, where I'm still active in the latter but not active any more in the former, despite this being something I would definitely have never predicted.
21:40:28 <elliott> olsner: well, not necessarily; I don't exactly link them all the time
21:40:38 <elliott> I happen to be in them, sure, but I don't really ever cross the boundaries, ever.
21:41:25 <elliott> I think that the internet that obeys the inter- part is much, much smaller than I thought it was.
21:42:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No thanks. I prefer to keep my affairs separate.
21:43:16 <elliott> All my SALACIOUS, ILLICIT affairs.
21:43:21 <Phantom_Hoover> But you've just demonstrated the fundamental oneness of your affairs.
21:43:44 <ais523> what the hell's been going on at the wiki? a set of spambots turning up and vandalising every page there?
21:44:35 <ais523> elliott: you see, the world population is approximately 1000, anything that indicates otherwise is a conspiracy
21:44:45 <ais523> this explains why you run into the same people so often, it's just birthday paradox
21:45:05 <Gregor> http://www.abebooks.com/products/isbn/9780814712368 <-- I'm holding an alternate-cover-art contest for this book. Go draw :P
21:45:22 <elliott> ais523: I would find that *so* much easier to believe if... actually
21:45:33 <Sgeo> I'm just watching a video tutorial of this thing, and I'm already hating it
21:46:10 <Gregor> I can only ass-ume that Sgeo is responding to my link.
21:46:19 <Sgeo> Gregor, I'm not
21:46:39 <elliott> Gregor: assumptions make an ass out of you and mption, though.
21:47:27 <Sgeo> But you turned mption into an ass, so he should screw himself/
21:47:38 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-FjskAHgN0&feature=player_embedded
21:47:40 <elliott> Sgeo: that was ... just never talk ever :|
21:50:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm invisible, immortal, and my interactions with the outside world are severely limited.
21:51:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In Limbo, eh? :P
21:52:07 <elliott> Try /home and you'll merely be invisible.
21:52:42 <Sgeo> What would happen if you logged out and back in?
21:53:04 <Sgeo> You'd lose the interestingness maybe, I guess, so don;t
21:53:38 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, were you turned into a neutrino?
21:54:14 <Gregor> ARE YOU IN QUANTUM FLUX
21:54:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, I have logged out and logged in. I have reconnected. I have restarted Minecraft.
22:00:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, don't :P
22:03:55 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover's nick becomes appropriate
22:05:55 <perdito> well guys..thx for takin me into this minecraft thing.. im really impressed by the work of these 'gang of four'.. this project has everthing.. absolutley innovative and genious gamedesign.. eye-openening technology.. beutiful 8bit loving art, music and last-but-not-least.. spirit
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22:06:32 <elliott> perdito: haha, good to know a channel about esoteric programming languages can serve a purpose by being wildly offtopic
22:06:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not that I know of?
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22:09:43 <perdito> i have to compare its genious to the first days of id-software.. back in those days..names like carmack and romero were heroes in my eyes
22:11:58 <perdito> btw.. guess what good ol'carmack does today?
22:12:41 <perdito> he's developing spacecraft vehicles :D
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22:27:05 <Phantom_Hoover> <Dagmar> It'll probably get nuked as soon as notch figures out what's causing it]]
22:27:48 <perdito> next, i need to get a closer look at this 'Lightweight Java Game Library' (LWJGL).. seems to be powerful stuff.. anyone having some experience in using it? ..i never used java, but it seems i need to question that in future :)
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22:29:00 <elliott> perdito: i would avoid java like the plague :)
22:29:46 <perdito> well i did until now (once again please excuse, and feel free to correct my very poor english, but i see no better way to improve it than to use it :P)
22:33:05 <olsner> Java could be used as a vehicle for a proper language though, say encode brainfuck in the least-significant bits of all identifiers
22:38:03 <perdito> most of the time i use c#, and as far as i know there is no big difference between java and c#.. had to time to find out sofar
22:38:10 <elliott> so does anyone know a decent Free(TM) java decompiler, they all look terrible
22:38:13 <elliott> perdito: java has no anonymous functions
22:38:40 <perdito> and most of them.. its free ;)
22:39:00 <Sgeo> What elliott said.
22:39:01 <olsner> the jdk comes with a dis"assemble"r that prints the java bytecodes, but it doesn't make java code of it
22:39:30 <elliott> olsner: yeah i kinda want java code, however shitty, to mod the minecraft server
22:39:35 <perdito> we do not need to discuss the differences now
22:39:37 <elliott> dear god jdec's ui is beyond hideous
22:39:48 <elliott> "Whats New Click Me", i swear to god this blinks colour
22:39:52 <perdito> im sure you know them all ;)
22:39:58 <Sgeo> elliott, I used a java decompiler once
22:40:12 <Sgeo> Don't remember how good or bad it was though, and certainly don't remember the name
22:40:29 <olsner> elliott: just make your own language based on java bytecode, probably better than writing your mods in java :D
22:40:56 <fizzie> There's one called "jad" or some-such.
22:41:16 <fizzie> Or, given how generic that name is, probably more than one.
22:41:38 <Sgeo> LiveGMS is working again!
22:42:18 * Sgeo acts as though he's going to spoil PH but doesn't actually do it.
22:42:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I've read it but no further.
22:42:21 <perdito> lets call it offtopic, but i'm surprised by the speed of this app running in my browser.. its based on openGL as far as i know
22:42:22 <elliott> fizzie: Jad is proprietary.
22:42:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, I added stuff to my castle
22:42:28 <elliott> fizzie: Also abandoned it seems.
22:42:39 <elliott> perdito: Oh, are you on Classic?
22:42:51 <elliott> perdito: I suggest buying Alpha; it's much nicer (and you can run it outside of a browser, too.)
22:43:31 <perdito> so anyone worked with this lwjg lib mentioned?
22:43:36 <fizzie> elliott: Seems pre-5 indeed. There was also another I used pretty recently, but can't recall the name.
22:44:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A whole 9 European monies.
22:44:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: Shut down my computer already, so not going to come see any castle improvements.
22:44:28 <elliott> And that's even more imperial moneys!
22:44:34 <elliott> fizzie is talking from the grave.
22:44:43 <perdito> my self produced 3D engines sucked so far *g
22:44:44 <elliott> This jdec thing sure is slow.
22:44:50 <elliott> perdito: well 3D isn't easy :)
22:44:56 <elliott> It is not reassuring when it says it's extracting glass by.x.
22:45:01 <perdito> i had polygons with 3-4fps
22:45:13 <perdito> and i was very proud of it
22:45:21 * elliott looks at the decompiled files
22:45:25 <perdito> but i guess openGL is good stuff
22:45:25 <fizzie> I think we did some java/opengl with either lwjgl or jogl, but not sure which one.
22:45:37 <elliott> double35=(abd5.a- this.a);
22:45:37 <elliott> double36=(abd5.b- this.b);
22:45:37 <elliott> double37=(abd5.c- this.c);
22:45:37 <elliott> return (((double35*double35))+((double36*double36)))+((double37*double37));
22:45:45 <elliott> if((double48*double48)<1.0000000116860974E-7)
22:45:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, minecraft uses lwjgl iirc
22:46:32 <Vorpal> elliott, what is that doube35 thingy?
22:46:42 <elliott> Vorpal: The 35th double used in the class, one presumes.
22:46:45 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, are you trying to patch health? well health is no issue
22:46:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Health is an issue to me.
22:47:02 <Vorpal> elliott, walk more carefully
22:47:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Down the staircase?
22:47:07 <Vorpal> elliott, to avoid falling off
22:47:15 <Vorpal> elliott, put 2 water at the bottom
22:47:15 <elliott> Good luck walking more carefully from level 128 to near level 0.
22:47:25 <perdito> it was just the wire.. not even filled :)
22:47:26 <elliott> Issue *not* solved, and tools now run out.
22:47:31 <elliott> It is distinctly inferior.
22:47:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, no, but they will.
22:47:41 <Vorpal> elliott, tools don't run out
22:47:47 <Vorpal> elliott, at some point yes
22:47:50 <Vorpal> elliott, and then it will matter
22:47:51 <perdito> the most primitive matrix-vector-stuff
22:48:06 <perdito> not even thinking of textures
22:55:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, made my storage room even more weird
22:55:11 <fizzie> What I used might have been this Dava thing. There's a recent-ish survey at http://jameshamilton.eu/sites/default/files/JavaBytecodeDecompilerSurveyExtended.pdf and page 13 has a table of decompilers.
22:57:45 <perdito> in best case the game itself has nothing to do with its view.. so viewing the states of the game is done by some sophisticated compiled and hardware-supporting software
23:00:14 <fizzie> elliott: I guess you know about the mc-specific deobfuscation thing? http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Minecraft_Coder_Pack (Untried.)
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23:09:00 <perdito> <Phantom_Hoover>perdito, make a non-Euclidean one. <-- thx for that hint
23:09:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Disclaimer: even I don't know how one would write a non-Euclidean 3D engine.
23:10:02 <perdito> just reading an interesting article on that
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23:12:13 <perdito> thanks to you, i know that there sth called "non-Euclidean" exists *g
23:13:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I wanted to write a raytracer for it, but I fell at the first hurdle of "working out the path of a ray in non-Euclidean space".
23:14:22 <Phantom_Hoover> In Euclidean space it's a trivial matter of vectors, but it gets more complicated otherwise, with geodesics and stuff.
23:14:51 <Phantom_Hoover> It's this kind of thing that makes general relativity *way* more complex to model than special.
23:15:07 <perdito> yes.. my math-leaks will never let me go
23:17:05 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geodesic_%28general_relativity%29 — useful to those with PhDs.
23:17:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Look at the Greek letters there; that's proper mathematics.
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23:28:47 <gin_soaked_girl> its so quiet you could hear a pin drop from 1000 miles away.
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23:49:13 <elliott> fizzie: Looks like that deobfuscation pack hasn't been updated yet.
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23:59:44 <elliott> fizzie: lol, it's a collection of windows bat files
00:00:41 <elliott> "Helped to port scripts on Linux."
00:12:05 <elliott> "[...] I usually don't use my linux machine for development. For me using linux is commandline, I don't need no fancy gui stuff :) That's what windows is for..."
00:12:13 <elliott> i have to read these horrible forums to get this working ;_;
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00:26:41 <Gregor> That sentence makes my brain hurt :P
00:26:46 <Gregor> Mainly the implication that development -> fancy GUI
00:30:06 <elliott> Gregor: (This was in response to someone offering to do Linux support)
00:30:19 <elliott> For a bunch of batch files.
00:30:31 <elliott> Psht, yeah, if you want development tools on Linux I guess. Personally I prefer to keep such fancy GUI things that development requires, like my batch files, on Windows. Silly Linux user.
00:30:50 <elliott> When I'm using Linux, I'm hardcore. Accordingly, I therefore do no development. (Where's vi's refactoring function, I ask you?!)
00:31:49 <elliott> Gregor: (I fabricated the last lines myself.)
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00:33:19 <Gregor> I figured since people like that don't use the word "Accordingly"
00:37:12 <pikhq> ... Fancy. GUI. For. Development.
00:37:21 <pikhq> Heck, I'm about to shank at the term "fancy GUI".
00:43:21 <elliott> Gregor: In which Sony bases their fancy new platform on
00:43:22 <elliott> http://snap.sonydeveloper.com/pages/about/
00:43:37 <elliott> If you guessed it before you read it, ... that's implausible!
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00:56:33 <pikhq> elliott: ... They're *using GNUstep*‽
00:56:43 <elliott> pikhq: SONY ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY
00:59:41 <Sgeo> elliott, help remind me that it's ok to kill norns
00:59:58 <elliott> Sgeo: it's not you're a horrible person, they are the only thing that's real
01:00:01 <elliott> them and activeworlds avatars
01:00:17 <Sgeo> Well, no. Today it's not ok. I have homework I need to do.
01:01:01 <Sgeo> But figuring out why cyanide killed my genetically-modified norns is on my list of things to do
01:01:58 <elliott> Sgeo will still have a similar, but not identical, todo list when he is 30. Ponder that, channel, if you will.
01:14:26 * Goose124 can't figure out how to do multiple digit addition
01:15:48 <Gregor> Multiple-digit addition? You have one digit in each cell or something?
01:17:17 <Goose124> but I don't know how to implement
01:22:08 <elliott> Note to self: Tangible values, Haskell?, Manatee-esque, Emacs; combine. Sweet sugar.
01:22:17 <elliott> Goose124: you do realise cells can store up to 255 in a regular implementation?
01:22:24 <elliott> so once you have the digits loaded in what the hell is the problem
01:22:43 <elliott> Goose124: here's how to do b = a + b: [>+<-]
01:22:48 <elliott> where a is cell at pointer and b is one forwards
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01:23:03 <Goose124> but I want the output to be multiple xD
01:23:22 <Sgeo> Storing as multiple base-256 digits sounds easily doable but... tedious unless you actually use your brain to loop a fixed am... hm
01:23:26 <Sgeo> Actually, what
01:23:33 <Sgeo> I have no idea what I'm talking about
01:24:40 <Sgeo> Please don't get brainfuck advice from me, especially if I mention a 4-letter... it's not an ancronym, WTF is it?
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01:26:33 <Sgeo> elliott claims to not be here when he really is here in spirit!
01:32:07 <Goose124> That's funny, because I'm pretty sure he has no soul :D
01:38:58 <Sgeo> Goose124, I'm sure he has no soul too
01:39:07 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure I have no soul either
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03:40:37 <Gregor> Yeah, having android and X11 compete for a framebuffer = madness.
03:41:01 <Goose124> ,[>+>+<<-]>>>,[>+>+<<-]<<[>>>[>>+<<-]>>-<<<<<-]>>>>>+<[-]<[-]<[-]<[-]<[-]>>>>>[<<<<+>>>>-]
03:41:34 <Gregor> What does the input do here?
03:41:56 <Goose124> if A is True then B should be True
03:42:07 <Goose124> If A is False, B doesn't matter
03:42:23 <Goose124> output is True unless B is true and A is false
03:45:53 <Goose124> I have OR, AND, NOT, XOR, and IMPLY so far :]
03:46:24 <Gregor> elliott via log: Wow, running X11 + Android at the same time = MADNESS.
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05:05:06 <Gregor> That shooting pain up and down your wrist? That's how you know you're a REAL computer scientist.
05:09:40 <Gregor> pikhq: DOOD, totes join my alternative cover-art contest! http://spamusers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13483
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06:08:42 <Gregor> Well, I think I officially have the ability to grow a douchebag-worth of goatee.
06:08:55 <Gregor> That is to say, a patchy bit of scruff on my chin that probably makes me look like a douchebag.
06:09:04 <Gregor> Or would if not combined with the long hair n' chops.
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09:31:54 <ais523> second most unexpected news of the week: Sony decide to use GNUStep as the framework for their next-generation products
09:33:44 <ais523> (I had to look it up; it's a GNU implementation of what evolved into the Apple desktop stack, so it's basically Objective-C and Cocoa, although it actually predates Cocoa)
09:36:12 <ais523> (if only Novell hadn't been bought by Attachmate, it'd definitely have been first)
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11:59:43 <fizzie> We have not seen him in quite a while.
12:00:25 <perdito> hehe..always missing oerjan
12:00:46 <perdito> whoever he is..it gets kinda mystic
12:09:27 <fizzie> I am a very unstalky person, but I think the other regulars have been more snoopingy about why/where he's gone; not sure about any results, though.
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12:14:03 <fizzie> There is some sort of snoopery talk in the logs at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.11.17 but of course it's mostly speculation.
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12:28:42 <ais523> nice to see you here again; I was worried something had happened, but when I saw you editing the wiki I realised you were OK again and stopped wondering
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12:30:21 <ais523> <ais523> nice to see you here again; I was worried something had happened, but when I saw you editing the wiki I realised you were OK again and stopped wondering
12:31:25 <oerjan> it would appear one of you got kaasen to reopen my account :D
12:31:46 <oerjan> OK _would_ be overstating it.
12:34:06 -!- coppro has set topic: Hip Hip Hurrah! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
12:34:09 <oerjan> now i need to find out why irssi doesn't accept my utf-8 keyboard input
12:34:30 <oerjan> could someone paste a utf-8 character of some sort?
12:36:04 <oerjan> that recent wiki spam was awful.
12:37:22 <oerjan> i wish it could have been rolled back instead, how the heck do i find out if there were any _legitimate_ edits?
12:40:16 <ais523> <namekuseijin> it is about programming in the sense that in the near future your only programming options will be coding in either oraclescript or brainfuck, the last bastion of freedom!
12:40:39 <ais523> oerjan: if I'd got to it first (which I didn't), I'd have used bot rollback, which hides both the revert and the original edit from recent changes by default
12:40:52 <ais523> I'm annoyed, because it pushed some vandalism off the bottom of recent changes and so I couldn't find it
12:41:22 <oerjan> well there _is_ an option to show 500 at a time, and i think a previous button as well
12:41:46 <ais523> there's the 500 at a time, but I don't think there's a previous button
12:43:33 <ais523> I fear I'll have to check every page individually to see if it was vandalised (Talk:Befunge had vandalism nobody caught, I only noticed when the page was revandalised)
12:43:37 <oerjan> there should be an option to rollback pairs of edits that revert each other
12:43:56 <ais523> there's an admin-only option to hide both a rollback and the original from recent changes
12:44:10 <ais523> but it's hidden (a GET parameter), and not generally known
12:44:19 <oerjan> yes but i mean you should be able to roll back even if _someone_ else did the revert
12:44:19 <ais523> I've used it before, but have to look it up every time
12:45:22 <oerjan> and of course at the recent spam volume it's a pain regardless (note i didn't even bother to try)
12:49:47 <oerjan> kaasen: kan du skrive noen norske tegn (utf8) her?
12:50:02 <oerjan> har problemer med utf8 i irssi
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12:51:24 <kaasen> oerjan: kjører du screen(1)?
12:51:36 <oerjan> de siste tre bokstavene funket ikke
12:51:47 <oerjan> de tre foerste saa ok ut
12:52:20 <kaasen> Har du satt $LANG og $LC_... til ....UTF-8?
12:52:33 <oerjan> bare irssi direkte, men jeg har brukt iso-8859-1 lenge og klarer ikke finne ut hvilken opsjon some ikke virker
12:52:54 <oerjan> vel jeg fjernet alle mine personlige LANG/LC_ settinger
12:53:24 <oerjan> og utf8 funker naa fint i pine og paa kommandolinja
12:53:31 <kaasen> Mulig du må ha utf8 i de miljøvariablene. De blir typisk satt av ssh når du logger inn.
12:55:06 <oerjan> er logget inn paa tyrell
12:55:08 <kaasen> Prøv "/set term_charset "utf-8"" i irssi
12:55:30 <oerjan> hm har utf8 uten bindestrek...
12:56:10 <oerjan> nå virker _input_ men ikke output
12:56:52 <kaasen> Ett skritt i riktig retning. :-)
12:56:59 <oerjan> dvs de store bokstavene vises fremdeles feil
12:58:10 <oerjan> det ser rett ut mens jeg skriver det men blir feil vist etter jeg trykker return
13:00:00 <kaasen> Du har valgt UTF-8 i putty, da?
13:00:44 <kaasen> Kanskje du må sette UTF-8 i LC_CTYPE også?
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13:02:03 <kaasen> Hvis du suspenderer irssi med ^Z, hva sier output fra kmd. locale?
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13:04:12 <oerjan> nå virker det, LC_CTYPE=en_UTF-8 fikset det
13:05:03 <kaasen> Tegnsett kan være litt kranglete. :-p
13:05:37 <kaasen> Her kjører jeg screen oppå i tillegg. Tør ikke røre oppsettet, for det virker nå. :-p
13:05:46 <oerjan> jeg hadde nå ellers håpet at å fjerne alle mine personlige innstillinger ville gi _ett_ eller annet konsistent resultat ;D
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13:06:34 <kaasen> Nja, kommer an på så mangt. ssh f.eks. kan sette den, ~/.profile kan sette dem, osv.
13:07:05 <oerjan> vel min .profile er bare en source av den globale
13:07:50 <kaasen> Det hadde vært så meget enklere om TERMCAP kunne si om en terminal støttet UTF-8 eller ikke, så kunne man bare sette $TERM=xterm-utf8 f.eks.
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14:13:53 <Vorpal> oerjan, long time since I last saw you
14:14:08 <oerjan> a bit more than a month
14:14:20 <Vorpal> something like that yes
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15:00:24 <oerjan> wuzzup the merciless, emir of waziristan
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16:34:19 <elliott> 19:40:37 <Gregor> Yeah, having android and X11 compete for a framebuffer = madness.
16:34:25 <elliott> Gregor: You don't have to call my name to make me read a log line :P
16:34:32 <elliott> Gregor: And lolz at that. How about disabling Android's UI?
16:34:51 <elliott> 21:09:40 <Gregor> pikhq: DOOD, totes join my alternative cover-art contest! http://spamusers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13483
16:34:52 <Gregor> A) X11 isn't reading the touchscreen (yet!)
16:35:16 <Gregor> B) I haven't yet figured out how to kill the Android UI ...
16:36:15 <elliott> Gregor: does it show up as a unix process?
16:36:29 <elliott> Android is the only Linux implementation that isn't even vaguely Unix-like :P
16:36:35 <Gregor> Yeah, but that process has a watcher process to revive it, and that watcher process is init :P
16:37:11 <elliott> Gregor: ITT: replace /sbin/init
16:37:29 <Gregor> I don't want to break Android, since if X11 doesn't work then I'm kinda fucked :P
16:37:45 <elliott> Gregor: Just make /sbin/init start /bin/sh. (Does it have /dev/console? Let's assume: yes.)
16:37:47 <elliott> 01:33:44 <ais523> (I had to look it up; it's a GNU implementation of what evolved into the Apple desktop stack, so it's basically Objective-C and Cocoa, although it actually predates Cocoa)
16:37:50 <elliott> lolz @ not knowing what gnustep is
16:37:56 <elliott> 04:09:27 <fizzie> I am a very unstalky person, but I think the other regulars have been more snoopingy about why/where he's gone; not sure about any results, though.
16:38:13 <elliott> fizzie: he's alive, he's still editing the wiki, he's still posting blog comments, and he's in some kind of crisis.
16:38:42 <elliott> oerjan: wait, was all of this just a set-up to scare us when you came back?!
16:39:25 <elliott> oerjan: now we just need cpressey back
16:39:34 <elliott> and maybe a form of fax that isn't insane
16:40:02 <elliott> oerjan: well i also want unicorns in the channel, can't a man wish for nonexistent things?
16:40:15 <Gregor> Dinosaur Comics has ties!!!
16:40:18 <elliott> oerjan: speaking of which, get some unicorns
16:41:36 <elliott> oerjan: Phantom_Hoover was looking for you; prepare to be bothered with trivial mathematics!
16:41:41 <oerjan> Gregor now has ties to Dinosaur Comics
16:41:55 <oklopol> i just bored him with trivial maths in pm
16:42:03 <oklopol> so Phantom_Hoover might be too much for one day
16:42:08 <oerjan> elliott: unless i ban him first for stalking me on Godel's Letter
16:42:17 <elliott> oerjan: to be fair, i did that too, i just didn't reply
16:42:27 <elliott> oerjan: i also emailed NVG, but that was before i had any idea you were even alive :D
16:42:35 <elliott> (and after your email bounced)
16:42:55 <oerjan> elliott: in that case you are partially responsible for me coming back today
16:43:11 <elliott> oerjan: how? (obviously 'cuz i'm magic)
16:43:28 <oerjan> elliott: you got kaasen to reinstate my account
16:43:35 * kaasen runs Debian in a chroot on his Android phone.
16:43:38 <elliott> oerjan: by /asking who you are/? :D
16:43:41 <oerjan> ...and phone me about it
16:44:06 <elliott> oerjan: did they kick you out for being way too old?
16:44:19 <oerjan> no, for not paying my membership fee
16:45:08 <elliott> kaasen: is that in reply to Gregor's insane Android tablet muckery?
16:45:12 <Gregor> I can't decide between the "T-Rex Stealth Tie" and the "T-Rex's Busy Day Tie"
16:45:34 <Gregor> kaasen: I have that too, but X11 only through VNC, which is lamesauce :P
16:45:36 <oerjan> oklopol: hey your math may be boring but it isn't trivial! er, wait...
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16:46:46 <oklopol> it's trivial, you're just so stupid you can't tell the difference between not understanding and being bored by triviality.
16:47:07 <kaasen> elliott: yes, I think so.
16:47:08 <elliott> yep, oerjan's is pretty stupid, gotta say
16:47:20 <elliott> i claim that the double is is a linguistic innovation
16:47:24 <kaasen> Gregor: agree, it's a pain.
16:48:24 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TO&Product_Code=QW-WHITEBOARD&Category_Code=QW do you own this? i am not sure why i do not own this
16:48:25 <Gregor> Somebody who isn't me should write a native Android X11 server.
16:48:31 <fizzie> I run Debian in a chroot on my Maemo phone.
16:48:43 <fizzie> But that's not anything clever, it's right there in the repositories.
16:48:45 <Gregor> elliott: I don't because that's new and already sold out :P
16:48:50 <fizzie> It's even called "easy-debian".
16:49:10 <elliott> fizzie, linux-based phone OS snob
16:49:31 <elliott> "This package, when installed on your tablet or phone, will give you OpenOffice.org, Gimp, the LXDE Desktop Environment, Evince, Firefox (called Iceweasel in Debian) with Java and Flash support, printing support, and access to thousands of precompiled applications from Debian that can be easily browsed and downloaded to your hand-held device."
16:49:35 <kaasen> I thought Maemo _was_ Debian?
16:49:41 <elliott> OpenOffice, GIMP, and LXDE on my phone?
16:49:44 <elliott> MY DREAMS, THEY HAVE COME TRUE
16:50:11 <fizzie> Well, it uses Debian's package management system and such, but the repository is separate and doesn't contain the Debian packages.
16:50:30 <elliott> 04:41:22 <oerjan> well there _is_ an option to show 500 at a time, and i think a previous button as well
16:50:30 <elliott> 04:41:46 <ais523> there's the 500 at a time, but I don't think there's a previous button
16:50:36 <elliott> oerjan: you can hack the URL to make it 50000 instead :p
16:50:42 <elliott> there's some built-in limit i think, but it works
16:50:51 <fizzie> OpenOffice.org on the phone wasn't exactly what I'd call pleasant; I tried it out, of course.
16:51:50 <elliott> oerjan: i like how i can understand your conversation about charsets in norwegian without actually reading any of the words
16:51:59 <elliott> fizzie: what about GIMP :Dm
16:52:03 <elliott> multi-window mobile heaven!
16:52:15 <elliott> oerjan: isn't it kind of breaking tradition to get utf8 working?
16:52:19 <fizzie> elliott: That I didn't even try.
16:55:18 <Gregor> When you can't decide, ya gotta buy both :P
16:56:13 <elliott> "America is warning allies that they may hate the US after the latest Wikileaks release." Best headline ever :P
16:56:33 <elliott> [[The U.S. government has notified Ottawa that the WikiLeaks website is preparing to release sensitive U.S. diplomatic files that could damage U.S. relations with allies around the world.
16:56:33 <elliott> U.S. officials say the documents may contain accounts of compromising conversations with political dissidents and friendly politicians and could result in the expulsion of U.S. diplomats from foreign postings.]]
16:56:56 <elliott> tl;dr "Hi! Uh, you know that WikiLeaks release they say they're gonna make? Yeah, yeah, that one. You're gonna hate that one, I tells ya!"
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16:57:32 <coppro> because that will lend credibility to the contents
16:57:46 <fizzie> You *could* also use the recentchanges API -- it has rcstart/rcend parameters to specify a time range, and can list oldest-first if you prefer -- but apparently http://esolangs.org/w/api.php just says "MediaWiki API is not enabled for this site."
16:58:11 <elliott> coppro: The US are not known for being non-dumb.
16:58:24 <elliott> New Minecraft update! I wonder if he fixed ALL THE HUNDREDS OF BUGS he just introduced.
16:58:30 <elliott> "Bug update #1. More coming tomorrow"
16:58:50 <elliott> [[Speaking of which, I will make the client updater ask the player before applying new updates. Automatic forced updates are scary, and they were only in because they were convenient and I never thought about it.]]
16:58:57 <elliott> That's good... now let us connect to older servers.
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16:59:48 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, elliott, what trivial mathematics do I ask about?
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17:02:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You said you wanted oerjan
17:02:53 <elliott> I assume it wasn't to discuss your Ph.D. thesis :P
17:05:31 <elliott> oerjan: btw we all got addicted to minecraft while you were gone
17:05:48 <Vorpal> elliott, lost connection
17:05:58 <elliott> Vorpal: i can't log in now
17:06:00 <oklopol> oerjan: also we watched a lot of teletubbies, wanna join the fun?
17:06:06 <elliott> maybe it's being upgraded :P
17:06:11 <Vorpal> elliott, nor me. Wait a bit
17:06:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think so
17:06:20 <elliott> Notch i hope you read this. but you need to make it so that difficulty levels are forced. if the host is on normal and another player is on peaceful, he wont see all the monsters the host does. host difficulty needs to be forced to the other players or players will die randomly.]]
17:06:25 <Vorpal> elliott, he said he was going to make food just about 1-2 minutes before
17:07:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I wanted oerjan because the swatter is making me feel guilty!
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17:12:33 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: isn't it kind of breaking tradition to get utf8 working? <-- shush
17:13:12 <elliott> oerjan: you need to fashion yourself a unicode swatter now
17:13:27 <Vorpal> ineiros, tell me when it is done
17:14:59 <elliott> Vorpal: how about just trying to connect...
17:15:29 <Vorpal> elliott, then I don't know if it is pre or post upgrade
17:15:50 <elliott> Vorpal: if it works, it's post.
17:15:53 <elliott> connection currently fails
17:20:33 <elliott> [X] Migrate legacy boot sequencing to dependency-based sequencing?
17:21:19 <fizzie> You could use U+25A6 "square with orthogonal crosshatch fill" ▦ for swatting, it's more dense than the #.
17:21:20 <ineiros> Phantom_Hoover: Feel free to come back now.
17:21:44 <fizzie> (There is also a diagonal crosshatch variant.)
17:22:20 <oerjan> elliott: actually the reason i finally got utf8 working was that today when i logged on my _email_ wasn't showing characters properly with my old setup, so i thought wtf and reconfigured.
17:22:55 <oerjan> and then of course i had to reconfigure irssi to work with the rest.
17:24:27 <elliott> fizzie: Took off one of the torches in the tunnel-to-skyway near spawnpoint; it's in the spawnpoint chest, bottom-left, if you want to fix it sometime.
17:33:00 <fizzie> Was something wrong with it or what?
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17:35:26 <Goose124> why would someone write if x == 0 run code like this: ,[<<+>+>-]<<[>>+<<-]+>[<->-]<[code-
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17:37:11 <elliott> Goose124: although if x==0 is never short
17:37:48 <Goose124> and based on how much code there is to run
17:37:52 <elliott> >[-]>[-]<<[>+>+<<-]>[<+>-]+>[<->[-]]<[code (go to temp0)-]
17:38:08 <elliott> where temp0 is one to the right of the cell you start on
17:38:12 <elliott> that requires the first two cells to be free
17:38:17 <elliott> that's the code from http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#if_.28x_.3D.3D_0.29_.7B_code_.7D
17:38:21 <elliott> Goose124: er are you sure that works?
17:38:41 <Goose124> only works if there is wrapping
17:38:44 <elliott> you could always just do http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#x_.3D_not_x_.28boolean.2C_logical.29 and then put a loop after it, of course
17:39:30 <Goose124> mine is for boolean values only
17:39:33 <oerjan> that second and third loops in the long one above are stupid, at least. you shouldn't need to move a value like that if you put them in the right spot to begin with.
17:39:38 <Goose124> so if the vaule was 2 it would break
17:40:03 <Goose124> but I intend to use it with all my logic operations
17:41:47 <Goose124> I couldn't get equiv to work exactly
17:41:59 <Goose124> sure it gives a non 0 value if they are equivalent
17:42:10 <oerjan> it's easy to turn a non-boolean value to a boolean one, anyway
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17:43:28 <Goose124> the only operations I somehwat fucked up though is IMPLY
17:43:35 <Goose124> at the end there is a lot of trash
17:43:36 <oerjan> that does a not but you can fix that
17:43:49 <Goose124> and I had to move the answer to 0002 also
17:43:55 <Goose124> ,[>+>+<<-]>>>,[>+>+<<-]<<[>>>[>>+<<-]>>-<<<<<-]>>>>>+<[-]<[-]<[-]<[-]<[-]>>>>>[<<<<+>>>>-]
17:44:42 <Goose124> but is there any good way to implement multiple operations without overlapping cells and getting confused?
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17:59:26 <elliott> oerjan: hmm is [[-]-]+ not?
17:59:48 <elliott> oerjan: [[-]-]+ does x = !x if x is either 0 or 1
17:59:54 <elliott> which is what Goose124 wants, i think
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18:02:39 <Goose124> I did not like this...,>+<[>-] :/
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18:03:31 <oerjan> elliott: erm i was trying to convert from a non-boolean to a boolean
18:03:44 <elliott> oerjan: in response to Goose124
18:03:47 <elliott> who wanted x = !x for boolean x
18:04:04 <elliott> Goose124: current cell must be 0 or 1.
18:04:13 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:04:33 <oerjan> [[-]-]+ most definitely doesn't work
18:04:47 <fizzie> Can [[-]-] ever terminate? After [-] it's 0, after the - it's not.
18:04:56 <oerjan> because at the end of a loop, the value is _always_ 0
18:05:01 <elliott> stupid brainfuck having while instead of if :)
18:05:13 <elliott> ok, i think that's easy enough to fix. hmm
18:05:43 <elliott> -[...it was 0, now 255...]...it was 1, now 0...
18:06:11 <oerjan> i don't think there's any chance of doing it with just one cell
18:06:23 <elliott> oerjan: wait, er, of course there is
18:06:33 <elliott> oerjan: that's "if (!x) foo" for boolean x
18:07:06 <oerjan> i mean if foo doesn't touch any other cells
18:07:57 <oerjan> i meant you cannot do not with just one cell
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18:08:36 <fizzie> So removing the double negative, you can do with just one cell.
18:08:50 <elliott> oerjan: boolean not is just >[-]<-[[-]+>] of course
18:08:52 <elliott> with one cell to the right
18:09:06 <elliott> oerjan: in fact you almost wrote that but not really
18:09:22 <Goose124> I guess my not is a bad implementation xD
18:09:34 <elliott> oerjan: forget i even spoke.
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18:10:43 <elliott> ais523: thought: mediawiki needs the ability to (1) mark all of a user's edits as bot edits, and (2) roll them all back
18:11:58 <Goose124> what are your thoughts on pbrain?
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18:17:49 <elliott> Goose124: "gluing parts onto a skateboard
18:18:39 <elliott> "Extending the brainfuck language is like bolting parts to a skateboard in an attempt to build a pickup truck. Nonetheless it is a popular activity and will probably remain so. Some more interesting projects use brainfuck as a testbed for programming constructs. Others remove or combine commands, sacrificing symmetry or simplicity. At a minimum, all these efforts should be given names clearly distinct from 'brainfuck' or any euphemism for it."
18:24:41 <Vorpal> elliott, btw (mc): I'll start rebuilding the rest of that cobblestone road when start replacing the cobble in your stairs. And I'll aim for a similar completion date as you
18:25:31 <elliott> Vorpal: My stairs are a piece of public art whose construction was supported by Phantom_Hoover and fizzie. Your stairs, on the other hand, are just ugly, and I don't know of anyone who disagrees.
18:25:38 <elliott> *Vorpal: My stairs are a piece of public art whose construction was supported by Phantom_Hoover and fizzie. Your road, on the other hand, is just ugly, and I don't know of anyone who disagrees.
18:26:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know about anyone agreeing. Also the subtree tower is made of cobble. So is the underwater library
18:26:08 <Vorpal> elliott, and many other things
18:28:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Support what, the stairs?
18:28:40 <Vorpal> indeed. Neither did anyone support when you *started* those stairs
18:28:46 <Phantom_Hoover> (As an aside, /real/ cobble roads are nice, but they're ugly in MC.)
18:28:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Nobody explicitly *un*-supported, they just didn't help.
18:28:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so use a custom texture pack
18:29:05 <Vorpal> elliott, um I unsupported it :P
18:29:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but you're just stupid.
18:29:24 <elliott> I'm going to build a gigantic floating penis right outside mount Vorpal and tell you to change texture pack if it's too glaring.
18:29:28 <Vorpal> elliott, personal insult. How fun.
18:29:46 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway. you two doesn't make a majority.
18:29:59 <Vorpal> elliott, but really what about the subtree tower
18:30:00 <elliott> Vorpal: No, but it does make a majority out of everyone who's expressed an opinion.
18:30:10 <Vorpal> elliott, so why aren't you angry at it
18:30:19 <elliott> I'm not angry, your road is ugly, that is all.
18:30:22 <Vorpal> elliott, nor is the road everywhere
18:30:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, I would not have brought it up if you didn't say <Vorpal> elliott, btw (mc): I'll start rebuilding the rest of that cobblestone road when start replacing the cobble in your stairs. And I'll aim for a similar completion date as you
18:30:33 <elliott> Vorpal: which was just stupid and petty.
18:30:54 <Vorpal> elliott, well it is just that you called it ugly in the game :P
18:31:04 <Vorpal> sure it could look better
18:31:15 <Vorpal> but so could those stairs
18:32:35 <elliott> Vorpal: My stairs look like that on purpose.
18:33:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, you can't walk up stairs of cloth, don't be silly. Physics doesn't work like that.
18:33:13 <elliott> Vorpal: Besides, can you make cloth stairs? I doubt it.
18:33:20 <Vorpal> elliott, well in minecraft it does :P
18:33:38 <Vorpal> elliott, you could use stone
18:34:01 <elliott> Goose124: yeah yeah i'll play DF when i get a computer that wouldn't fall over and cry.
18:34:09 <Vorpal> elliott, seriously. Physically speaking cobble wouldn't hold together by it
18:34:09 <elliott> Goose124: also: totally different, really, despite their similarities.
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18:34:12 <elliott> like saying "doom > nethack"
18:34:17 <elliott> no reason you can't enjoy both
18:34:26 <elliott> Vorpal: It's a very carefully-constructed stairway.
18:34:48 <elliott> Anyway, mining is probably the most boring part of Minecraft.
18:34:51 <Vorpal> elliott, riight. So is the cloth one. Maybe it is reinforced cloth?
18:35:00 <elliott> So your advert is unlikely to work. :p
18:35:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Pics or it didn't happen.
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18:35:36 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway it would be possible to make one with enough blocks
18:37:36 <elliott> I'm not going to punch sheep all day.
18:38:08 <Goose124> I just like putting 3500 blocks of TNT underground...:/
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19:06:44 <elliott> Where in the Linux menuconfig does one enable the display of advanced options, again? I can't find it.
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19:11:37 <oerjan> why, obviously it's an advanced option
19:12:41 <fizzie> If you mean the "enable experimental code and/or drivers", I think it was among the very first options in the first group.
19:13:07 <fizzie> Or rather, "enable asking about experimental code"; it doesn't enable anything per se.
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19:13:59 <Goose124> so i gafs it an interface sorta
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19:16:21 <elliott> Goose124: okay, grayson miler
19:16:47 <elliott> fizzie: i think it was the "enable configuration of standard stuff (for small systems)" -- paraphrased -- just checked that, and nothing i want to configure
19:16:54 <elliott> (Yes, naysayers, this is for Kitten.)
19:17:29 <elliott> Vorpal: you've probably used oprofile. it's shitty yes?
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19:20:34 <Vorpal> elliott, depends on what you are doing
19:20:48 <Vorpal> elliott, it takes a bit of work. But for some stuff it excels
19:20:49 <elliott> Vorpal: what i'm saying is: convince me not to disable kernel support for me.
19:20:54 <elliott> Vorpal: what i'm saying is: convince me not to disable kernel support for it.
19:21:07 <Vorpal> elliott, who cares. It is your kernel
19:21:23 <Goose124> does anyone know where I can get my hands on a wierd interpreter
19:21:43 <elliott> http://catseye.tc/projects/wierd/
19:21:49 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/wierd/impl/
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19:22:53 <elliott> Goose124: those links are from the wiki page [[Wierd]] :P
19:24:17 <elliott> Goose124: if you know chris pressey was involved, or when in doubt, just check http://catseye.tc/
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19:26:07 * elliott applies patch-2.6.36-ck2.bz2
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19:28:41 * Goose124 thanks elliot for reminding him
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19:30:50 <Goose124> gonna get rid of windows for good this time :P
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19:39:16 <elliott> and he even misspelled my name (how do people do that??)
19:39:25 <elliott> Elliot Toodledoo or something
19:39:31 <elliott> ugh even typing that makes me pain
19:43:41 <Ilari> Mispell someone's name... I have whole list of mispellings of my name I have seen (ranging from understandable sans-serif typos to just plain weird).
19:45:20 <Ilari> Well, most are from IRC...
19:45:43 <fizzie> My surname's been once mangled to Mallasjoki (lit. "malt river").
19:47:01 <Ilari> Perhaps the most bizarre is "Elarry".
19:47:54 <ineiros> I think a few times I've ordered from the States, my name is written as "LLARI" on the package.
19:48:54 <Ilari> Sans-serif fonts can produce that.
19:49:53 <Ilari> Because in those fonts, Capital I and small L look exactly alike. I have also seen IIari.
19:50:11 <Ilari> (that's the other way to confuse the characters).
19:51:06 <elliott> Not exactly in this one at least.
19:51:22 <elliott> that is, little L is taller than big i
19:52:14 -!- perdito has changed nick to perdito|afk.
19:52:24 <Ilari> But I haven't seen lIari yet...
19:56:19 <elliott> Vorpal: you've done insane wakeups optimisation yes?
19:57:35 <olsner> wakeups optimisation yes?
20:00:37 <elliott> │ Use early_res directly instead of bootmem before slab is ready. │
20:00:37 <elliott> │ - allocator (buddy) [generic] │
20:00:37 <elliott> │ - early allocator (bootmem) [generic] │
20:00:37 <elliott> │ - very early allocator (reserve_early*()) [x86] │
20:00:37 <elliott> │ - very very early allocator (early brk model) [x86] │
20:00:38 <elliott> │ So reduce one layer between early allocator to final allocator │
20:00:41 <elliott> best (worst) config description ever
20:02:00 <olsner> I'm still only at my hardcoded page numbers allocator
20:04:56 <olsner> I was thinking about implementing *the* allocator in assembly as probably the next step of my kernel
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20:05:16 <Sgeo> Illiad forgot to put the "This 'toon is a repeat" thing up
20:08:05 <elliott> That's okay because nobody with a brain reads UserFriendly.
20:08:16 <elliott> And it's not very popular among the decerebrates, either.
20:08:36 <elliott> olsner: put a GC system in the kernel
20:08:52 <elliott> olsner: (repeat after me: Awesomeness takes precedence over supporting C. Awesomeness takes precedence over supporting C.)
20:09:21 <olsner> supporting C? I'm going to support assembly
20:09:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to lIari.
20:09:56 <olsner> everything else is up to whoever cares about making a C implementation
20:10:18 <elliott> olsner: but if you do a GC and implement the rest in $language, it'll be awesome! and I can steal your code again!
20:10:36 <olsner> ooh, I see what you're up to now
20:10:41 -!- lIari has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
20:12:36 <elliott> olsner: I *will* get you to implement ElliottOS for me!
20:17:19 <elliott> ┌──────────────── /dev/cpu/microcode - microcode support ─────────────────┐
20:17:30 <elliott> │ │ [*] Intel microcode patch loading support │ │
20:17:31 <elliott> │ │ [*] AMD microcode patch loading support │ │
20:27:26 <elliott> │ 250 HZ is a lousy compromise choice allowing server interactivity │
20:27:26 <elliott> │ while also showing desktop throughput and no extra power saving on │
20:27:26 <elliott> │ laptops. No good for anything. │
20:30:49 <fizzie> "Good for when you can't make up your mind."
20:32:00 <fizzie> It doesn't seem to be so written in this 2.6.34.1 kernel I have here, but I see it's some sort of hz-no_default_250.patch in someone's tree.
20:33:15 <elliott> fizzie: It's part of the infamous-and-now-revived -ck patchset.
20:33:33 <elliott> fizzie: (It recommends 300 Hz for the compromisers.)
20:34:33 <elliott> fizzie: I've applied -ck because it has the Brain Fuck Scheduler and the other stuff looks benign and/or obvious. :p
20:34:45 <elliott> I figure he's unlikely to do anything stupid.
20:35:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, I thought you were planning an ambitious build in you-know-where!
20:36:00 <olsner> hmm, thinking about cool ways to make VM features available to user-mode, like registering callbacks for your own page faults... looks like pretty much everything is also possible from signal handlers though
20:36:24 <elliott> olsner: why do you have kernel vs user mode, THINK OUTSIDE THE BAUX
20:36:35 <elliott> CAPABILITY PERMISSION VERILY ANTELOPWE
20:37:21 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: you've done insane wakeups optimisation yes? <-- to some extent.
20:37:28 <elliott> olsner: baux is how you spell box if you're classy.
20:37:33 <elliott> olsner: antewelope is an antelope with extra w.
20:37:48 <Vorpal> elliott, and the places I'm currently in mostly have power outlets. So no longer a major issue
20:37:54 <elliott> Vorpal: higher kernel tick Hz won't cause extra wakeups if dynamic ticks is on, yes? -ck option descriptions say so.
20:38:14 <elliott> right now I'm configuring it as 1000 Hz with dynamic ticks
20:38:20 <Vorpal> elliott, correct in theory at least. Though iirc some versions have been buggy wrt that
20:38:35 <Vorpal> (I have no clue about -ck)
20:38:43 <elliott> Vorpal: -ck replaces the whole scheduler, so.
20:38:48 <elliott> it has a good chance of fixing any bugs like that :P
20:38:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Bah, this paper is about computing the geodesic between two points!
20:38:55 * elliott considers turning off kvm... naw, i'm not that cruel
20:39:08 <elliott> I have disabled Xen support and "special stuff" for running *under* KVM.
20:39:12 <elliott> That can go in another kernel package.
20:39:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you could reverse it presumably
20:39:41 <elliott> "If unsure, say M." -- that's a new one.
20:39:54 <Vorpal> unless I'm totally confused about how geodesic works
20:40:08 <elliott> "Enable the block layer" Pointless bloat!
20:40:09 <Vorpal> elliott, did you see my minecart system?
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20:40:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the geodesic between two points is the shortest distance between them (taking topology into account).
20:40:23 <elliott> also, /me notes that this kernel is going to be like 7, 10 MiB... stupid overhead
20:40:33 <elliott> I suppose I could decrease max processors from 512; that'd save 4 MiB. :P
20:40:35 <Vorpal> elliott, between subtree/fizzie intersection and my entrance to the tunnel
20:40:39 <elliott> (Well, if I reduced it to... 0.)
20:40:42 <Vorpal> elliott, plan is to extend it to mt hover
20:40:48 <Vorpal> elliott, but I'm out of iron
20:40:48 <fizzie> elliott: Is "enabling the block layer" some sort of euphemism for an in-kernel minecraft?
20:40:49 <Phantom_Hoover> The geodesic from a point given a direction is not something I understand.
20:41:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Cool; route it to the spawn point too.
20:41:07 <Vorpal> elliott, you must bring your own minecart to the place
20:41:15 <Vorpal> elliott, must be underground. Or animals get in
20:41:30 <Vorpal> elliott, there are some minecarts at the subtree
20:41:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes really; I'd rather work the skyway than craft every time I want to go somewhere.
20:41:49 <elliott> Vorpal: That's not "my own".
20:42:09 <Vorpal> elliott, well I carted some of them in previous attempts. Feel free to take
20:42:15 <Vorpal> elliott, they are in the one of the chests there
20:42:34 <Vorpal> elliott, you could have a chest with them at each end and then put them back. If you go about as often in both directions you should have a constant supply in both places
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20:42:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Can't you just have a system where they go around in a loop forever...?
20:42:52 <olsner> elliott: I quite like kernel/user mode separation, and I definitely don't intend to only support specific languages (like lisp)
20:42:55 <Vorpal> elliott, and /home isn't that much faster any more. It cuts travel time a LOT. Seems that minecarts are faster on MP than in single player
20:43:08 <Vorpal> elliott, only if all the involved chunks stay loaded
20:43:10 <elliott> Vorpal: "and /home isn't that much faster any more." Eh?
20:43:31 * elliott ponders momentarily whether to drop all EFI support.
20:43:35 <Vorpal> elliott, /home from mt. hoover is currently way faster than walking. The difference will be way smaller with the minecarts
20:43:49 <Vorpal> well currently they don't go all the way. But based on how far they go now...
20:43:53 <olsner> but I would like the kernel part to be as small as possible, and microkernelish... then everything is user mode :)
20:44:47 <elliott> olsner: just make it a picokernel; have some kind of IPC mechanism, and export a fake "kernel" process that has one message: task-switch-to(process-id). Have no automatic task-switching.
20:44:59 <elliott> olsner: Then you can implement the task switcher as the first user-mode process below that. :)
20:45:08 <elliott> (And have it deny IPC access to the kernel process for all its children.)
20:45:38 <Vorpal> elliott, between intersection and my tunnel entrance: about 7 seconds.
20:45:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Where is it again?
20:45:55 <Vorpal> elliott, where is what?
20:46:00 <Vorpal> elliott, the intersection?
20:46:18 <elliott> Vorpal: The Minecart system.
20:46:36 <Vorpal> elliott, go down to subtree and get minecart. then go to mt. hoover in the tunnel. You will see it fairly soon
20:47:11 <elliott> Vorpal: wait, it starts in the Nailor Memorial Mount Hoover Tunnel Passage?
20:47:29 <elliott> Vorpal: It needs a name so I've named it as of now.
20:47:35 <elliott> Vorpal: It is the tunnel to Mount Hoover that I refer to.
20:47:40 <olsner> elliott: yes, that's a pretty good start... you do need some way to manage pages though, and you definitely can't let processes access any physical page they want
20:49:09 <elliott> olsner: OK, have two fake processes: page-manager and task-switcher. :p
20:49:11 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway yes that is where it is. Just to my entrance to that tunnel so far
20:49:21 <elliott> olsner: Actually, just have one kernel one, and also expose a couple of page functions.
20:49:47 <elliott> olsner: You can do "security" i.e. not letting processes access certain pages by using whatever simple security thing you put in the IPC -- like "deny my children IPC access to process 0 (kernel)".
20:49:58 <elliott> And then implement the subset they're allowed to do -- the safe page operations -- as an interface of that process.
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20:54:41 <olsner> yep, something like that
20:56:51 <olsner> was thinking about just having a flexible interface for transferring/sharing pages between processes and use that both for IPC and for memory allocation
20:57:57 <olsner> e.g. ask the page-process to give you a bunch of zero-initialized pages and it'll get back to you with a "hey you got pages" call
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21:04:26 <elliott> olsner: I approve of this; all you'd need to do is expose a single process with a few paging functions and one task-switching call, and that'd be the entire kernel.
21:05:04 <olsner> there are a couple of details more though: I/O access and interrupt handlers, which will be required to implement drivers
21:05:05 <Vorpal> elliott, it broke didn't it?
21:07:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Question: Could you avoid having to push it by having the first section, up until the booster, be powered? So that as soon as you stepped on a plate just in front of the track, it'd power a circuit that, when you put the cart down, would start moving it, slow-ish, towards the booster; you would then right click it, without having to dash for it, and since you'd have stepped off the plate, the power would stop, and momentum would carry you
21:08:21 <Vorpal> elliott, not really. Plus you easily learn how to push
21:08:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Server is working now.
21:08:28 <Vorpal> elliott, a nudge then jump in
21:08:38 <Vorpal> elliott, how would you route the thing off
21:08:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Can you restate that sentence?
21:10:34 <olsner> been thinking about what would be the most efficient way to do IPC in a multi-cpu system, with a minimum of explicit inter-cpu communication and costly system calls... maybe something like processes being able to sleep in a wait-on-shared-page-access (to avoid the need for explicit wakeup signals from the sender)
21:12:06 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't understand.
21:12:22 <elliott> ineiros: Couldn't connect to the server once. Works now.
21:12:40 <Vorpal> elliott, the powered minecart would be hard to route off another place. Delays are not reliable on MP
21:12:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Only the very first section would be powered, up to the booster.
21:13:00 <Vorpal> elliott, and sometimes minecarts going over plates don't trigger the plates
21:13:02 <elliott> olsner: alloc-page() -> page
21:13:11 <elliott> olsner: free-page(page) -> void (?)
21:13:11 <Vorpal> elliott, yes you need a powered minecart for that
21:13:17 <Vorpal> elliott, which you need to route off
21:13:20 <Vorpal> elliott, which is tricky
21:13:32 <elliott> olsner: hmm, identify pages by SHA512 hash
21:13:44 <elliott> olsner: and take it as read that anyone with the hash has been granted access to the page :P
21:15:41 <olsner> I think free-page would be pretty much the same as when the page-process gives pages to other processes, only that the page-manager knows that any page it receives exclusive access to is one that has been "freed"
21:16:13 <elliott> ineiros: We could really use Nx64 minecart tracks. Also minecarts. :P
21:16:25 <olsner> i.e. there's some kind of flag for asking the real kernel to remove the page from your own page table when adding it to the other process' page table
21:16:35 <elliott> olsner: alloc-page() -> page
21:16:42 <elliott> olsner: grant-page(page, pid) -> void
21:16:49 <elliott> olsner: revoke-page(page, pid) -> void
21:16:54 <elliott> olsner: wait-until-write(page) -> void
21:17:35 <elliott> olsner: make grant-page instead
21:17:45 <elliott> olsner: grant-page(page, pid[, is_admin]) -> void
21:17:51 <elliott> olsner: only page admins can use the grant/revoke functions, obviously
21:18:04 <elliott> olsner: and trying to revoke a page from its only admin is an error
21:18:16 <elliott> olsner: (this lets you grant pages to people without necessarily letting them mess around with who they're granted to)
21:18:23 -!- kaasen has left (?).
21:18:35 <elliott> olsner: So all you need is that and switch-to(pid) -> void, and "theoretically" you can do the rest in userspace. :P
21:18:35 <olsner> hmm, but I want read-only sharing and private mappings and stuff like that
21:18:49 <elliott> olsner: (And of course, all those functions are exposed as page-based IPC.)
21:18:58 <elliott> olsner: get rid of revoke-page, and make grant-page be
21:19:01 <olsner> e.g. if someone read-write mmaps a file, and a bunch of process read-only/private map them, they'll all share the same actual frame
21:19:03 <elliott> grant-page(page, pid, permissions) -> void
21:19:09 <elliott> olsner: if permissions = 0, it's the same as revoke
21:19:14 <elliott> if permissions & 1, it's read
21:19:17 <elliott> if permissions & 2, it's write
21:19:24 <elliott> if permissions & 3, it's ability to use grant-page on this page
21:20:07 <elliott> olsner: so freeing a page is... grant-page(page, 0, 7)
21:20:15 <elliott> grant-page(page, mypid, 0)
21:20:21 <olsner> pretty much, still not sure about having "granting" control at all though
21:20:26 <elliott> olsner: well, that's how you'd share it, no?
21:20:41 <elliott> olsner: this thing implements both exposing IPC and sharing privileges in one interface, doesn't it?
21:20:46 <olsner> if you have access you can always give away that much access to someone else, but you can obviously also restrict them
21:21:31 <elliott> olsner: hmm, ok then: remove the admin bit
21:21:39 <elliott> olsner: and have the rule that you can only grant-page to a pid that is your child
21:21:47 <elliott> tada, suddenly you can't revoke your parent's page access any more
21:21:53 <elliott> and the process hierarchy enforces security
21:22:17 <elliott> olsner: so basically, saying to something "hey, IPC me up on an interface" would look something like... this i think (this is just me thinking, feel free to comment)
21:22:30 <elliott> grant-page(page, thepid, WRITE)
21:22:49 <olsner> I wouldn't have restricted it to only children though, am I missing an obvious risk there?
21:22:50 <elliott> olsner: you realise i'm trying to tarpit your kernel into near-nothingness :D
21:23:08 <elliott> grant-page(page, some_pid_that_can_currently_read_and_write_the_page, 0)
21:23:12 <elliott> then you revoke its access
21:23:15 <elliott> this is useful because e.g.
21:23:18 <elliott> grant-page(page, my_pid, 0)
21:23:29 <elliott> (well, only if you're the only one with access to it, but you see what i mean)
21:23:36 <elliott> grant-page is actually modify-permissions-for-page
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21:23:39 <elliott> but grant-page is a snappier name :P
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21:24:13 <olsner> oh, that's quite different from the api I had in mind though
21:24:35 <elliott> olsner: what did you have in mind? i'm interested
21:24:55 <elliott> olsner: otoh, my model currently has four functions representing the *entire* kernel interface, and they're all trivial, so it better be good :D
21:25:15 <elliott> (alloc-page, grant-page, block-until-page-write, switch-to)
21:25:18 <olsner> for one, you can never give away a page that you don't have access to yourself, and you can't revoke access
21:25:30 <elliott> (2) then how do you do free()?
21:25:40 <elliott> you said that if the kernel was the only one with access to a page, it'd know to free it
21:25:46 <olsner> and granting the same page to the same process twice just maps the same page in another place
21:25:46 <elliott> but how can you do that if you can never give up a page?
21:26:00 <elliott> olsner: hmm, i was thinking that you'd have the page address be the same for every process
21:26:06 <elliott> and you'd just communicate that address to the other processes
21:26:55 <olsner> not decided about that, but I was thinking that you give a page using your own virtual address and the other end receives the same physical page in its own address space :)
21:27:21 <elliott> olsner: or you could have the same address space for the whole OS, and just have every page access crash the process unless it has the privileges
21:27:25 <elliott> olsner: that's super-simple :P
21:28:19 <olsner> and when you give away a page "exclusively" you actually only give away your own reference to it
21:28:29 <olsner> and existing sharing still remains
21:29:00 <olsner> this causes some tricky stuff when freeing though, because the page-master needs to know when all other owners of pages have disappeared
21:30:20 <elliott> olsner: that sounds really complicated, with mine, all you have to do is store two bits (well, three if you have an execute permission or whatever) for each page
21:30:34 <elliott> olsner: two bits * processes given access to it
21:30:47 <elliott> olsner: and when those bits are zero, you can reuse them for another process that accesses it
21:30:52 <elliott> olsner: my system is beyond dirt simple :P
21:30:57 <elliott> your kernel would be like. 5 lines.
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22:26:07 <elliott> ineiros: apparently the new server is also hangy sometimes!
22:27:07 <ineiros> Might be related to the connection as well. I might accidentally use all of the INTERNETS now and then.
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22:50:19 <elliott> ineiros: Can I have /tp ehird BCxVAhWQxi?
22:51:14 <perdito|afk> are different users..different process' in that view?
22:55:59 <perdito|afk> forget that question.. there's enough log to hand thath oneenoght
23:03:41 <Vorpal> ineiros, timeout again
23:06:38 <ineiros> I noticed, if this keeps going on, I'll complain to my ISP.
23:10:46 <fizzie> Ask the "what sort of minecraft discriminators are you!?"
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23:19:09 <elliott> ineiros: Well, consumer ISPs generally aren't very good for servers. :p
23:19:21 <ineiros> Yeah, but it's affecting all my connections.
23:19:37 <elliott> ineiros: How much RAM does it use? When I get around to buying a VPS again I'd be happy to host it if it isn't too RAM hungry.
23:20:00 <elliott> (But I hear the server uses hueg amounts of RAM.)
23:20:27 <ineiros> elliott: As much as you want to give it. I think 1G is about the minimum what it will run on.
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23:20:43 <elliott> ineiros: And it uses more for you, presumably.
23:20:54 <elliott> ineiros: A shame then; the VPS I'm probably getting is 1 GiB total.
23:21:18 <elliott> (Also in America, which is problematic for every single current player.)
23:21:24 <ineiros> elliott: Well, I run it with java -Xmx3072M -Xms3072M -jar minecraft_server.jar nogui
23:21:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:22:32 <ineiros> elliott: Where are you planning to get a VPS?
23:23:14 <elliott> ineiros: http://prgmr.com/xen/; they're cheap, run by long-time experienced Xen guys, open about downtime and problems on their blog, and used and recommended by Gregor (after I second-hand recommended them).
23:23:35 <elliott> ineiros: (There was that disk thrashing issue, but that's resolved and he got a discounted price for the duration anyway.)
23:23:52 <elliott> ineiros: $20/mo for 1 GiB RAM, 24 GiB disk, 160 GiB network transfer seems to be the sweet spot for what it's worth.
23:26:04 <elliott> ineiros: (Previously I was with Slicehost who I would no longer recommend since they got bought out by The Man^W^Wrackspace. Besides, *they* don't let you run your own kernel, just a predefined distro list. I'll stop blabbing now.)
23:27:19 <Vorpal> elliott, 1 GB RAM is not enough
23:27:24 <Vorpal> elliott, it wants 2 GB no less
23:28:11 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, I've heard that. (I tried to tell the same to two friends thinking they could set up a server on a machine with not much ram (256 or 512 MiB), but they decided to try anyway because of, I don't know, mental retardation or whatever.)
23:28:34 <Vorpal> elliott, and seems ineiros used 3 GB
23:28:45 <elliott> I can indeed convert MiB values to GiB.
23:29:18 <Vorpal> elliott, really? Sounds like an unique skill. Maybe you should enter some competition. Or a freak show.
23:29:47 <fizzie> You don't even have to, because he said "3G" in addition to the command line.
23:30:01 <Vorpal> oh didn't see that line
23:30:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, also that would explain the laggyness (hur hur)
23:31:26 <fizzie> Coincidentally, our gracious host was quite a while (month?) with only a 3G uplink at home. That would have made for some quality crafting.
23:32:39 <elliott> fizzie: Ditto, a while ago! It liked to downgrade to EDGE, too.
23:32:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, you can go all the way now
23:33:22 <fizzie> I can go all the way to sleep, you mean.
23:33:46 * Sgeo is reminded of Orisinal <3
23:34:24 <fizzie> Some big, hairy (well, most likely) dudes are going to barge in at 08am to put in more stuff to make the windows a bit less leaky.
23:34:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, no I mean to mt. hover
23:35:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, in several steps due to MP bugs
23:35:17 <fizzie> Mt. Hover sounds more floating.
23:36:20 <fizzie> I guess there should also be tracks from the intersection to subtree, optimally.
23:37:04 <elliott> fizzie: There should be tracks RIGHT TO YOUR DOOR, too!
23:37:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, sure. Go ahead and place them
23:37:24 <Vorpal> elliott, that is a very short walk
23:37:38 <Vorpal> elliott, but fizzie should fix his horrible stairs (annoying to walk up)
23:37:53 <elliott> also, it's his damn house :P
23:37:57 <Vorpal> elliott, that would take more time to walk up
23:38:18 <Vorpal> Than walk from intersection to fizzie
23:38:24 <Vorpal> good idea to subtree though
23:38:54 <fizzie> What's wrong with my stairs?
23:39:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, that they are not very user friendly?
23:39:13 <elliott> fizzie: ever tried walking up them? :p
23:39:30 <fizzie> I've walked up them at least a dozen times.
23:39:34 <Vorpal> it can be done but is annoyingly slow
23:39:47 <Vorpal> due to having to turn very carefully
23:39:52 <fizzie> You don't have to visit if the stairs are too much for you. :p
23:40:24 <elliott> "Forget that, MINECRAFT takes the edge off? I freely admit I'm a wuss, but I've played once since the Halloween update, and spent pretty much the entire time cowering as armies of creepers overran my ineffectual day 1 forts."
23:40:25 <Vorpal> anyway: tracks to near spawnpoint: good idea
23:40:49 <elliott> Vorpal: just do it to the closest area you can build on, and then make a hole with water. :p
23:40:53 <elliott> and have a chest of minecarts there
23:41:05 <elliott> it would replace the skyway as the easiest way to get around
23:41:15 <Vorpal> well no. I would not have a chest there :P
23:41:26 <Vorpal> elliott, after all the only reason to go there is /home
23:41:35 <Vorpal> elliott, and then you have it in inventory
23:41:40 <Vorpal> Oh? Dying? What dying?
23:41:40 <elliott> Vorpal: not if you just died.
23:41:57 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but the issue is that chest will never be filled up
23:42:04 <Vorpal> elliott, thus it will soon become empty
23:42:14 <Vorpal> elliott, thus the whole plan fails
23:43:06 <elliott> Vorpal: no, because you're expected to put the carts in the next chest
23:43:20 <elliott> and every now and then people should go to the chest and deposit some carts there, from the next chest
23:43:39 <Vorpal> elliott, would you do that? Or would "people" be "me"?
23:44:03 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean, it'd consist of getting some carts, typing /home, walking a few places, and putting stuff in a chest.
23:44:20 <Vorpal> elliott, okay you can build that. Personally I'm not really interested in that bit since I carry my personal cart.
23:44:49 <elliott> Vorpal is a ruthless capitalist, caring not about anyone else but himself.
23:45:22 <Vorpal> elliott, if I was, why the heck did I build that all the way to mt. hoover?
23:45:27 <Vorpal> elliott, rather than just to my place
23:46:08 <elliott> Vorpal: To corner the market on long-distance transport, duh.
23:46:35 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you have never built a booster before right?
23:46:40 <Vorpal> I would guess fizzie has
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23:47:05 <Vorpal> elliott, so there you have it
23:47:35 <Vorpal> elliott, I have the expertise :P
23:48:10 <Vorpal> anyway, this was a completely new booster design for me (though trivial, I assume someone already thought of it)
23:48:28 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:48:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Patented, one presumes.
23:48:46 <Vorpal> elliott, it is a trivial academic result
23:48:52 <Vorpal> elliott, hardly worth even a lemma
23:51:03 * elliott removes reiserfs support from the default kernel
23:51:16 <elliott> I need to get more militant about stripping crap out of it; if anyone wants to add stuff they can always just use kerntool(1).
23:52:08 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, but nobody actually *uses* them nowadays in Linux.
23:52:09 <Vorpal> anyway that is your kernel
23:52:18 <Vorpal> elliott, not yet indeed
23:52:29 <elliott> Vorpal: I even like dynamic linking in the sense that it's late binding; it's just that the Unix implementations mess it up.
23:52:45 <Vorpal> elliott, why do you like late binding?
23:52:45 <elliott> i.e., I like the idea of ACLs in general (well, generalised as capabilities), but I don't think they're any use in Linux.
23:53:00 <elliott> Vorpal: I like really-late-binding (Smalltalk) and really-early-binding (Forth). :-)
23:53:13 * Vorpal replaces elliott's late binding with whatever way C++ implements it
23:53:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Late binding is really the heart of what people mean when they say "dynamic/flexible"; Lisp, Smalltalk, etc.
23:53:40 <Vorpal> presumably it involves vtables
23:53:45 <elliott> ...naw, I don't need quotas.
23:54:06 <elliott> (Adding any of this stuff consists of adding one line to ~/.kerntoolrc and running "kerntool install" as root, anyway.)
23:54:25 <elliott> (I'm making it so easy for all those fuckers with nvidia and ati cards. :p)
23:55:14 <elliott> Note to self: Look into integrating TuxOnIce at some point.
23:56:13 <elliott> I don't think I need in-kernel NTFS support, since anyone would use ntfs3g anyway.
23:56:25 <elliott> │ The only supported operation is overwriting existing files, without │
23:56:25 <elliott> │ changing the file length. No file or directory creation, deletion or │
23:56:25 <elliott> │ renaming is possible. Note only non-resident files can be written to │
23:56:25 <elliott> │ so you may find that some very small files (<500 bytes or so) cannot │
23:57:05 <elliott> │ │ [*] Tmpfs POSIX Access Control Lists │ │
23:58:13 <Vorpal> elliott, that has been there for ages
23:58:19 <elliott> Vorpal: I know, just, still. :)
23:58:29 <elliott> │ The Acorn Disc Filing System is the standard file system of the │
23:58:29 <elliott> │ RiscOS operating system which runs on Acorn's ARM-based Risc PC │
23:58:29 <elliott> │ systems and the Acorn Archimedes range of machines.
23:59:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I just go for freebsd slices and apple partition map when it comes to partitioning system support
23:59:17 <Vorpal> and more recently EFI GUID stuff too
23:59:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Go for? As in to remove?
23:59:36 <Vorpal> elliott, as in enable those apart from normal MBR
23:59:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I use things with freebsd slices sometimes
00:00:04 <Vorpal> elliott, same for apple partition map
00:00:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Meh, few lines in ~/.kerntoolrc and a single command.
00:00:15 <Vorpal> and EFI GUID thingy is potentially useful
00:00:23 <Vorpal> elliott, they are not modules
00:00:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Default kernel is meant to be small and without any crap; cover 90% of things. :p
00:00:31 <elliott> Vorpal: kerntool rebuilds the kernel.
00:00:51 <elliott> "kerntool install" downloads it, applies the -ck patchset, copies the default Kitten kernel configuration, applies your settings, builds it, and installs it.
00:01:11 <elliott> (In fact the default kernel does not even have module support, but it is of course easy to enable it for proprietary graphics card drivers.)
00:01:33 <elliott> │ Minix is a simple operating system used in many classes about OS's. │
00:01:33 <elliott> │ The minix file system (method to organize files on a hard disk │
00:01:33 <elliott> │ partition or a floppy disk) was the original file system for Linux, │
00:01:33 <elliott> │ but has been superseded by the second extended file system ext2fs. │
00:01:38 <elliott> I like how it doesn't even bother to mention the heritage.
00:02:22 * elliott compiles client support but not server support
00:02:43 <elliott> Ugh, SMB, CIFS, blah de blah.
00:03:22 <Vorpal> elliott, many will want CIFS
00:03:29 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, I'm leaving it in.
00:03:32 <Vorpal> elliott, did you enable plan9 resource sharing?
00:03:47 <elliott> I haven't got to that yet I think, but I will enable it. :P
00:03:50 <Vorpal> elliott, no one uses it
00:03:55 <elliott> Vorpal: No, but I like it, you see.
00:04:06 <elliott> Vorpal: And it actually works without interfering with other stuff.
00:04:07 <Vorpal> elliott, also it is very experimental iirc
00:04:12 <elliott> Unlike ACLs which are a pain to implement.
00:04:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Er, no, it's a merging-in of a third-party 9P implementation.
00:05:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, I'm tempted just to chop all NFS stuff, and have a kerntool option "nfs = true" or whatever that enables NFS and CIFS.
00:05:30 <elliott> Because really, nobody sane wants to use NFS. :-)
00:05:42 <Vorpal> cifs should not be in nfs = true
00:05:54 <elliott> Vorpal: It's inside the NFS hierarchy in Kconfig.
00:06:05 <Vorpal> elliott, not in menuconfig
00:06:12 <elliott> Vorpal: (Anyway, if it's literally just turning on configuration options, it'll be SOME_UPPERCASE_THING=true or whatever.)
00:06:17 <elliott> Lowercase is kerntool shortcuts.
00:06:28 <elliott> │ │ [*] Network File Systems ---> │ │
00:06:29 <elliott> │ │ [*] CIFS support (advanced network filesystem, SMBFS successor)│ │
00:06:32 <elliott> Where second is inside firt.
00:06:41 <Vorpal> "network file system*s*"
00:06:42 <elliott> I consider Network File Systems the NFS section. :p
00:07:04 <Vorpal> elliott, needed for blktrace
00:07:07 <elliott> Kernel debugging... uh, no.
00:07:21 <elliott> But not CONFIG_DEBUG_KERNEL!
00:07:29 <Vorpal> elliott, and kernel debugging options too. Seriously. Otherwise no powertop iirc
00:07:38 <elliott> │ Enable this for additional checks during memory initialisation. │
00:07:43 <elliott> I refuse to accept *any* reason to keep this.
00:08:17 <elliott> Schedule debugging info, no.
00:08:20 <elliott> That's Con Kolivas' problem.
00:09:01 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't need to enable building with -g, right?
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00:15:54 <elliott> todo: probably make this Y
00:31:50 <elliott> Vorpal: linux's configuration options is what happens when you and zzo38 team up to write a kernel's configuration options.
00:35:57 <elliott> olsner: would you appreciate it if i wrote up how my paging system works in my head tomorrow?
00:36:24 <elliott> olsner: I also realised that it's not 4 exposed kernel functions, it's actually 3; alloc-page is just grant-page with a NULL page argument, really.
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00:52:58 <elliott> I estimate I'm something like 50% of the way to the final configuration.
00:53:04 * elliott builds the kernel to take a look at the resulting size.
00:53:16 <elliott> Haven't disabled many pointless device drivers yet, so...
00:53:28 <elliott> Using LZO because it decompresses fast, too, so it'll be bigger than strictly necessary.
00:55:48 <elliott> Why is AFS building... todo: fix that.
00:56:01 <elliott> Heh, looks like I forgot to cut out NFS.
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02:55:18 <Gregor> Y'know, I feel that a proper Android X11 server should be feasible.
02:56:09 <Gregor> If it's possible to create a window that's full screen and reads mouse position, but never updates the screen, then it's relatively easy.
02:56:26 <Gregor> Just need to push those mouse events into a real X server and make it use standard fbdev.
02:56:54 <Gregor> (Well, all the Android systems I have use standard fbdev anyway ...)
02:57:28 <Gregor> Just need to prevent Android from gettin' in the way :P
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07:31:06 * oerjan doesn't like the temperatures in the weather forecast
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07:32:27 <oerjan> (-10 .. -20 celsius. of course the canadians and minnesotans are probably laughing at this.)
07:33:31 <fizzie> I don't like the temperatures in the temperature-o-meter here. I mean, thermometer. (Okay, so -13 degrees Celsius is not so cold in an absolute sense, but it always feels colder at the start of winter.)
07:33:53 <oerjan> oh i forgot the finns are laughing too :D
07:34:33 <fizzie> The five-day forecast says -22 on Tuesday morning.
07:34:58 <fizzie> It could be lying, of course; it often is.
07:35:04 <oerjan> i only looked at a three-day forecast, maybe it'll dip below -20 here too
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07:52:57 <pikhq> oerjan: That's pretty fucking cold by my standards.
07:54:08 <pikhq> Low of about -12°C here...
07:55:29 <oerjan> well but i have my usual winter clothes. -20 is about when it starts getting uncomfortable even wearing those.
07:56:14 <pikhq> 0°C is where I start refusing to go outside for longer than it takes to make it to or from my car.
07:56:40 <oerjan> heh, that's about when i start putting on the winter clothes in the first place
07:57:26 <oerjan> actually the knitted cap and scarf go on earlier.
07:59:11 <oerjan> my neck cannot stand much cold wind at all
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08:01:58 * oerjan looks at yesterday's xkcd and thinks "nice try sir, but you are _not_ fooling me into looking at wikipedia's necrosis article"
08:07:51 <olsner> last february it went all the way down to -30 though
08:23:44 <fizzie> ",axo,i,öoleöohppd H;; traomomg" -- that's one impressive way to typo "maximum-likelihood training".
08:23:56 <fizzie> Sorry, "maximum-likelihood HMM training".
08:24:21 <olsner> it's just an off-by-one
08:25:00 <fizzie> Not completely; you can't get - into ö by being off-by-one to the same direction as m to , and the rest.
08:27:28 <oerjan> surely the ö corresponds to an l
08:27:33 <fizzie> Oh, I see, I just dropped the -; must be it was off-by-one to the same direction, just that it hit to a shift.
08:29:24 <oerjan> ,axo,i,øoleøojppd J,, traomomg
08:29:43 <oerjan> somehow you got the H right
08:30:13 <olsner> maybe someone just touchtypes h's incorrectly
08:38:57 <fizzie> I think my typing is a bit context-sensitive.
08:39:59 <fizzie> Not so sure: I haven't learned things in any systematical way.
08:52:15 <oklopol> i like "water expands to frighten predators"
08:54:25 <oerjan> so basically rising oceans are due to too many sharks
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08:58:30 <oklopol> i think sharks aren't any more dangerous to water than other fish
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08:59:04 <oklopol> assuming water hates being in the digestive system
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08:59:19 <oklopol> it's possible it actually procreates that way tho
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09:47:06 <Vorpal> elliott (for log reading): I started work on a minecart station near spawn: note it is in cobble because stone would be pointless atm since I suspect I will have to change it several times over. Going offline for a bit, have other stuff I need to do.
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14:01:09 <elliott> │ │ [ ] B.A.T.M.A.N. Advanced Meshing Protocol │ │
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14:11:19 <elliott> How did I accidentally disable block devices...
14:15:19 <oerjan> !haskell map toEnum [78,111,119,32,72,105,114,105,110,103] :: String
14:16:04 <oerjan> (http://imgur.com/DqYOs)
14:16:16 <Slereah> Fortunayely, I have an ASCII chart on me wall
14:16:34 <oerjan> well it's not that i _couldn't_ have converted in my head
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14:16:51 <oerjan> but that would have been work
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14:28:05 <elliott> oerjan: s/toEnum/chr/;s/ :: String//
14:28:39 <elliott> > map chr [78,111,119,32,72,105,114,105,110,103]
14:28:40 <oerjan> requires import Data.Char
14:28:43 <elliott> !haskell map chr [78,111,119,32,72,105,114,105,110,103]
14:28:52 <elliott> oerjan: why doesn't !haskell have that :p
14:29:00 <elliott> anyway that's a parse error inexplicably
14:29:47 <oerjan> because !haskell first tries as a ghci command line and then as a standalone module, and if both fail you only get the error message for the latter.
14:30:03 <oerjan> and what you pasted doesn't parse as a module
14:30:46 <oerjan> !haskell map Char.chr [78,111,119,32,72,105,114,105,110,103]
14:30:56 <elliott> oerjan: hmph, it should really give the first error message. or something.
14:31:00 <elliott> also, what, how did it do that
14:31:02 <elliott> does it auto-import or something
14:31:18 <elliott> or does it import it qualified as Char for no reason
14:31:19 <oerjan> ghci allows you to load modules on the fly by giving explicit qualifier
14:31:46 <elliott> oerjan: oh ghci. ohhh ghci :)
14:31:57 <elliott> WHAT ARE YOU that is my question
14:32:52 <elliott> did that make sense it didn't did it
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14:33:55 <elliott> comex: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Fallensn0w I blame you.
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14:36:26 <oerjan> hm that edit of Arrow on 24th i probably missed in the spam flurry...
14:37:21 <elliott> i blame my going insane on the lack of oerjan's comforting presence
14:37:57 * oerjan gives elliott a creepy hug
14:38:16 <elliott> oerjan: i'm sorry, it is absolutely impossible for you to be creepy.
14:38:32 <elliott> people with knitted wool sweaters *cannot* be creepy.
14:39:18 <oerjan> i deny it all i want, this is a polyester/cotton cardigan
14:39:53 <oerjan> just because people have tried giving me wool sweaters doesn't mean i actually want to use them
14:40:05 <elliott> oerjan: incorrect. additionally, you look very similar to Dijkstra, except with dark hair and not much of a beard
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14:40:19 <elliott> specifically you look almost identical to this http://www.knowledgerush.com/wiki_image/0/0a/Edsger_Dijkstra_large.jpg
14:40:28 <elliott> shorter nose, less jutting out chin, but basically the same.
14:40:43 <elliott> other people as insane as I have backed up this mental image of you! it is more accurate than whatever your actual appearance may be
14:40:47 <oerjan> ...you've seen a picture, you know perfectly well i'm not dark hair. granted on not much of a beard though.
14:41:04 <elliott> oerjan: my brain has seemingly modified my memory of the picture to include your *correct* hair colour, which is dark
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14:41:50 <elliott> compressing the kernel with LZO is easier when you have LZO installed!
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14:43:47 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 11M Nov 26 14:42 arch/x86/boot/bzImage
14:43:55 <elliott> that's with everything compiled in, no modules
14:44:08 <elliott> (and only compressed with the rather weak LZO)
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15:06:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, I had an inspiration for non-Euclidean Raytracer.
15:07:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Rather than actually raytrace anything, do a coördinate transform on the space into an appropriate projection in line-preserving flat space.
15:07:33 <oerjan> the raytracer that can draw cthulhu properly
15:09:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the image has to be projected onto a flat plane at /some/ point, so it's not quite perfect.
15:09:17 <oerjan> hm i would be surprised if there always is such a coordinate transform
15:09:42 <Phantom_Hoover> There's one for elliptical ones, but I've forgotten its name.
15:09:47 <oerjan> although i _do_ recall there is one for hyperbolic geometry
15:10:13 <oerjan> but what about spaces with varying curvature?
15:10:19 <Phantom_Hoover> And allowing it to work on arbitrary Riemann manifolds is not for the faint-hearted.
15:11:56 <oerjan> for a sphere a projection through the center onto a plane works, i think
15:12:30 <Phantom_Hoover> (i.e. I am not doing it ever unless someone else codes and works out the algorithm to trace the rays.)
15:13:05 <oerjan> raytracing with general relativity :D
15:13:40 <oerjan> although that includes time as well, presumably
15:14:31 <ais523> ugh, the Talk:Befunge spammer seems to be a dynamic IP from Telefonica de Espana
15:14:34 <Phantom_Hoover> As well as being torture to understand, let alone code.
15:14:53 <elliott> ais523: just block, like, half of spain temporarily
15:15:06 <elliott> start with blah.*.*, add more *s before if needed :P
15:15:16 <ais523> and they have many separate /16s
15:15:25 <ais523> I don't think they're feasible to block
15:15:27 <elliott> ais523: just block all of spain :)
15:16:11 <ais523> it'd be a pain even to figure out what IPs belonged to Spain
15:16:19 <ais523> they seem to have been allocated piecemeal
15:16:25 <elliott> [ 6.608103] Oops: 0000 [#1] PREEMPT SMP
15:16:34 <elliott> gee, that looks like the funnest kernel oops i can think of
15:16:39 <elliott> something easy, and simple to fix!
15:18:47 <ais523> so, it seems that my C students, who have been doing things like writing size_t rather than sizeof because sizeof isn't in NetBeans' autocomplete (despite being told not to use NetBeans), are going to be writing kernel modules for their next exercise
15:18:50 <ais523> this can only end well
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15:20:06 <elliott> ais523: it'll work even less than this kernel! which can't even boot, as you can see
15:20:19 <oerjan> there might be a kernel of truth to it
15:21:20 <Ilari> What? How you can replace sizeof with size_t?
15:25:16 <elliott> Ilari: by not caring whether it compiles or not
15:25:40 <elliott> Ilari: presumably they typed sizeo, it gave no completions, they backtracked one, saw size_t, and accepted it because OMG IDE SMARTER THAN ME
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16:09:26 <Vorpal> elliott, did you see the note I left to you in the logs?
16:10:02 <elliott> Vorpal: i did but i've forgotten; i'll look
16:10:08 <Vorpal> ineiros, if so: what about the server upgrade today?
16:10:36 <elliott> "I’ve got plenty of more bugs to address in SMP, which will be fixed over the coming weeks. I think we might be getting close to beta soon. =D"
16:10:49 <elliott> I'll start modding the server to remove health/item decay soon, I think, if things start stabilising.
16:10:59 <elliott> If only those deobfuscation scripts weren't batch files.
16:12:10 <Vorpal> ineiros, so not applied yet then
16:14:06 <elliott> "Everyone sentenced to jail in pirate bay case."
16:14:11 <elliott> RIP presumed Swedish sanity.
16:14:19 <elliott> whenever -- sometime round about now.
16:19:08 -!- calamari has joined.
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16:30:27 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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16:50:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: not your connection
16:50:58 <elliott> if you mean what just happened now
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16:58:10 <elliott> Vorpal: does that really warrant two exclamation marks
17:08:12 <elliott> Anyone want me to blab about Kitten? Phantom_Hoover? pikhq?
17:08:31 * oerjan is more a dog person, himself
17:08:48 <elliott> oerjan: this one is really cute though
17:09:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: PACKAGE MANAGEMENT, it's the best thing ever right?
17:09:26 <elliott> oerjan: Here is an accurate depiction of what your computer will be like if you use Kitten: http://kittenwar.com/c_images/2008/12/07/169170.2.jpg
17:09:34 <elliott> http://kittenwar.com/c_images/2009/01/02/170450.1.jpg climbs into your computer.
17:11:33 <Vorpal> ineiros, severe constant lag now :/
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17:12:48 <oerjan> well it could be worse, could be exponential
17:13:49 <oerjan> YOU WILL ONLY GET 50 LINES THROUGH FROM NOW UNTIL THE HEAT DEATH OF THE UNIVERSE
17:16:04 <oerjan> <Vorpal> ineiros, severe constant lag now :/
17:17:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, in typical me fashion, I'm using files to do it all because what could be better.
17:17:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, here it meant that dl/dt was mostly 1. :P
17:18:39 <Vorpal> ineiros, what did you change?
17:19:14 <ineiros> A torrent finished downloading and I stopped a Skype video call. :)
17:19:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://sprunge.us/eEGS
17:19:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: = means the file contains that. -- is info. -> means symlink.
17:19:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: TOTALLY INTENTIONAL. Pretend it's fixed.
17:20:11 <Vorpal> I'm out of tracks again
17:20:21 <Vorpal> I still have a few iron ingots to make a handful more from
17:20:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The package tree is updated with rsync. The root.tar.xz files are, too; except that they're normally excluded.
17:20:24 <ineiros> It smells like cookies here.
17:20:24 <Vorpal> doubt it will last long
17:20:35 <elliott> Specifically, root.tar.xz is only included for every package with the installed file present.
17:21:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: This also means that if a new package is out which doesn't change every bit, it'll come through as a binary diff from the rsync side, meaning package updates Aren't So Horrific, After All when I recompile them all to use the latest libc.
17:21:40 <elliott> Oh, and yes, /pkg is in the root directory.
17:21:49 <elliott> Because, dammit, the root directory should have useful things in it.
17:22:07 <elliott> Admittedly it should probably actually be /var/pkg, since it's volatile.
17:24:00 <elliott> ineiros: Do you just bake cookies every single day?
17:26:47 <ineiros> elliott: No, but I packed them yesterday. Half of them are still just sitting on the table there, but the scent penetrates the packaging.
17:27:08 <elliott> ineiros: If I offer my mailing address, will I get cookies, anthrax, or air?
17:27:49 <oerjan> a deal too good to refuse!
17:28:01 <elliott> Three for the price of none!
17:28:04 <elliott> ineiros: Do the air particles come individually wrapped?
17:28:27 <ineiros> I need to make more cookies, as I made a list of people who should receive cookies and ran out of cookies when I reached the halfway point.
17:29:38 <ineiros> elliott: No. And the cookies might be decorated with powdered sugar or anthrax.
17:29:54 <Vorpal> ineiros, and I'm a minecart atm
17:29:54 <elliott> /pkg/levee/needs/ncurses -> /pkg/ncurses
17:30:03 <elliott> Since ncurses will be statically linked in, it has no runtime dependencies.
17:31:15 <Vorpal> ineiros, java.net.SocketException: Connection reset
17:31:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Expanded and remastered collector's edition: http://sprunge.us/fXdV
17:31:25 <Vorpal> ineiros, and now connection refused
17:31:34 <Vorpal> ineiros, I assume the server crashed since I was in a minecart
17:31:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (Additional option: /pkg/cc -> /pkg/(pcc or gcc or tcc or...))
17:31:53 <Vorpal> ineiros, if my inventory was lost by this I will be very sad
17:32:04 <ineiros> Don't know what happened there.
17:32:32 <elliott> Vorpal is literally addicted
17:33:54 <elliott> ineiros: quick, leave a torrent going
17:34:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, suggestions for this system welcome.
17:35:39 <Vorpal> elliott, if you want that system done (and you complained a lot about the long walk) you need to go mine iron
17:35:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Not now. Maybe later.
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18:31:56 <Gregor> Or rather, today is the day that I learn that January 10th may be a good day pending results to be declared on March 14th.
18:32:00 <Gregor> But I can't tell you why.
18:35:26 <Gregor> BECAUSE YOU'LL RUIN IT
18:35:39 <oerjan> YOUR EVIL PLANS ARE DOOMED
18:36:03 <oklopol> Gregor: i heard to day is a good day
18:36:41 <Gregor> To day is a good day toparty!
18:38:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:40:47 <pikhq> Butbut PERHAPS TODAY IS A GOOD DAY TO DIE
18:43:01 <oerjan> TODAY IS A GOOD DAY TO DYE
18:48:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, is it work-related?
18:49:27 <elliott> Vorpal: just as i started to make stairs to climb up the waterfall :D
18:49:31 <elliott> might go for ladders actually
18:49:35 <elliott> so as not to spoil the look
18:49:39 <Vorpal> elliott, also minecraft.net seems down
18:50:03 <Vorpal> so I couldn't possibly connect for now
18:50:13 <elliott> holy shit, crafting recipes are meant to look like their results!
18:50:27 <elliott> Vorpal: ah, it can't connect *because* minecraft.net is down
18:50:29 <Vorpal> elliott, in code you mean? saw something about that
18:50:38 <Vorpal> elliott, it also timed out before
18:50:43 <elliott> look at the recipe for a ladder, then for a pickaxe
18:50:47 <Vorpal> elliott, oh well. Yes duh
18:50:51 <Vorpal> elliott, what did you think?
18:50:59 <Vorpal> elliott, it is obvious at the first glance
18:51:00 <elliott> Vorpal: i thought they were just arbitrary :D
18:51:17 <Vorpal> elliott, uh. How could you possibly miss it
18:51:25 <Vorpal> elliott, it is glaringly obvious?
18:52:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:53:16 * oerjan watches laws of nature unravel as elliott misses something Vorpal finds obvious
18:53:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: server is down
18:53:35 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: " so i'm not sure anymore if " per" requests fnord
18:53:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: but oh my holy shit, I found the most <3 cavern ever.
18:53:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Let me explore it before entering, please.
18:53:56 <elliott> I think it might even go near the surface.
18:54:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Two waterfalls; one goes into a little indented pool (seriously) at the end. The other one is GIGANTIC.
18:54:22 <elliott> As in "longer than my view distance".
18:54:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Many, many branches. Lots of coal. Lots of iron. Lots of gold. -- well, not any more, I mined it all.
18:55:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not until I finish exploring, please.
18:56:14 <elliott> I need to give the Kitten package manager a name that isn't "pkg(1)".
18:56:31 <Vorpal> elliott, what about kpkg?
18:57:12 <elliott> Ooh, interesting! I've managed to merge dpkg and apt-get's goals in my system.
18:57:32 <elliott> That is, the local cache of a package, its info and dependencies and whatnot, is the complete package tarball, minus one file.
18:57:35 <Vorpal> elliott, or kittitude?
18:57:43 <elliott> Vorpal: inkorporeal?!?!??!
18:58:02 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm just taking your idea to the extreme. :D
18:58:06 <elliott> oerjan: yesyesyesyesyesyseyseysy
18:58:17 <Vorpal> elliott, not sure which one inkorporeal would be about
18:58:23 <elliott> oerjan: except it's called a furball
18:58:30 <elliott> omg furball that is so perfect
18:58:39 <elliott> .fur or .ball, that is the question
18:58:41 <oerjan> mistranslation from norwegian, then
18:59:26 <elliott> oerjan: well looks like hairball is also an acceptable name for it
19:00:15 <Vorpal> argh minecraft.net was up for 10 seconds, managed to login but died before i could connect to ineiros's server
19:01:01 <Vorpal> well I guess I lost that item (just some sticks I had dropped by mistake just before it went out of order)
19:01:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: problem is, furball would be a package
19:01:09 <elliott> that doesn't name the system itself
19:01:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Don't enter the cavern. Seriously.
19:01:24 <elliott> I want to experience it myself.
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19:10:24 <elliott> /usr/lib/diet/include/asm/x86_64-sigcontext.h:11: error: expected specifier-qualifier-list before ‘__u64’
19:15:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Don't go into the cavern yet, please.
19:16:07 <Phantom_Hoover> This is the problem with centralised authentication...
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19:17:36 <oklopol> elliott: given that i tend not to notice connections between the english names of mathematical concepts, and the concepts themselves, i might not have noticed the recipes look like their recipees, if i hadn't watched 2.5 hours of youtube tutorials before downloading it
19:18:17 <oklopol> i couldn't come up with an example :\
19:18:23 <oklopol> i just remember it's happened a lot
19:19:26 <oklopol> like i have to check what definitions mean even when it's painfully obvious from the name
19:20:15 <oklopol> it has a complicated definition, but you can pretty much guess it from the name ...unless you think of the name as a meaningless string
19:27:24 <Vorpal> ineiros, time out even
19:27:43 <Vorpal> ineiros, any clue as to what cause it?
19:27:43 <ineiros> All my connections are slowing down.
19:28:09 <ineiros> Spotify is running, but I don't think that's the culprit.
19:28:52 <Vorpal> ineiros, I guess asking you to implement QoS minecraft reservation is a bit over the toip
19:29:38 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, can I feast upon the magnificence of this cavern yet?
19:30:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Firstly, I just flooded it so I could get out to see where it emerges.
19:30:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So you Really Don't Want To Go There right now.
19:33:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I won't tell you because you'll just go in.
19:33:07 <ineiros> This time the reason is probably that I'm installing something through aptitude.
19:33:12 <elliott> Please let me figure out where it emerges and plug the flood hole.
19:33:58 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, this was meant to be a shared mine, not a "ZOMG a cavern don't come in i need to feast on the beauty myself and flood it" mine.
19:34:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I am allowed to explore one particularly astonishing cavern, am I not? This thing is a *serious* anomaly.
19:34:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, right, so it's a serious anomaly which you have to explore yourself because anyone else would spoil it.
19:35:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK, I *asked* you politely not to go in without asking me.
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19:35:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'll abandon the mine if you want, but you're just being a dick now.
19:36:58 -!- Goosey has joined.
19:37:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: All I did was ask you to let me explore it *once* before going in.
19:37:08 <elliott> It's not like I put up huge signs saying EHIRD ONLY AREA ZOMG.
19:37:25 <Phantom_Hoover> For the love of god, *there is no reason not to let me explore it as well*.
19:37:26 <elliott> Anyway you can sort out that flood yourself.
19:37:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I was *about to let you* since I was just clearing it for the last time.
19:37:51 <elliott> The reason was that it was more enjoyable to explore it on my own, and I discovered it, and lit all the way.
19:38:29 <oklopol> elliott that's not very open source of you
19:38:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, OK, so if you ask politely I sit around doing nothing while you go on about how fantastic your cavern is, then you flood it so I can't look around myself.
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19:38:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Actually, I was trying to get back out.
19:39:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It is not difficult at all to plug the hole anyway.
19:39:38 <Phantom_Hoover> And then you saw me near the mouth and thought "OMGHECAMEINAAAAAA" when I had been wandering around the mine that I helped dig?
19:40:01 <elliott> Dude, that's the *end* of the cavern.
19:40:15 <elliott> The only way to get there is by walking about 1, 2 minutes *inside* the cavern.
19:41:29 <elliott> First you have to traverse the first bit, then you have to jump down, then you have to walk past the first waterfall, then you have to jump, then you have to enter that cavern.
19:44:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway I'm not interested in mining with someone who won't extend any courtesy to someone exploring a new area; I wouldn't barge in a cavern if you were exploring it.
19:44:34 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, OK, so you hold to your own absurd standards of etiquette.
19:44:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I shall destroy your giant stairs; you in return may destroy my giant stairs.
19:45:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: My standards of etiquette that says that, at the bare minimum, if someone repeatedly asks you to not do something, you don't ignore them without at least *telling* them you're ignoring them.
19:45:19 <elliott> ...which giant stairs, the ones near civilisation?
19:46:10 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, just because you ask me not to do something doesn't mean I won't look around the mine that belongs to me as well and look around.
19:46:23 <elliott> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: My standards of etiquette that says that, at the bare minimum, if someone repeatedly asks you to not do something, you don't ignore them without at least *telling* them you're ignoring them.
19:47:17 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, have your little strop. I expect my share of the gold from the cavern.
19:47:42 <Vorpal> elliott, probably the cavern connects to another part of the mine. Cavern tends to go in circles quite often
19:47:46 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:47:48 <elliott> Expect it all you like... also, you are terrible at detecting strops.
19:48:10 -!- oklopol has joined.
19:48:39 <Phantom_Hoover> And I don't really see what's so fantastic about this cavern.
19:48:56 <elliott> That's because I've already mined it. And now *you're* the one being stroppy.
19:49:19 <elliott> Meanwhile, I am going to exit out the top; do not stop me.
19:49:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I blocked that exit some time ago; reopen it yourself.
19:50:44 <Phantom_Hoover> So you're reneging on the agreement to share the proceeds from the mine?
19:51:42 <pikhq> Some consumer electronics are so *comically* oversized.
19:52:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes; I no longer intend to use the mine, and you violated my terms (don't explore this cavern until I have).
19:52:07 <pikhq> I've got here a POS router that comes in a case with twice the footprint of the circuit board inside.
19:52:18 <elliott> It may have been different if you had at least told me you were going to ignore my request.
19:52:19 <pikhq> The case also weighs more.
19:52:39 <Phantom_Hoover> The terms were not "we dig this mine and you let me explore caverns and I'll give you half of what I find."
19:52:51 <Phantom_Hoover> The terms were "we dig this mine and we share the proceeds".
19:53:05 <pikhq> I suspect they just wanted to give the impression that a freaking router is more advanced and complicated than it really is.
19:59:01 <Gregor> pikhq: Is it stackable or whatnot?
19:59:12 <Gregor> If not, I agree. If so, maybe they've just got some outdated standards.
19:59:47 <pikhq> Gregor: It is not readily stackable.
20:00:12 <pikhq> I mean, technically you *could* make a stack of them, but that's just because you could set it on top of itself.
20:00:26 <pikhq> Rather than, y'know, being designed to do that without toppling.
20:00:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: if you discovered a cavern I would have respected your first-exploration wishes.
20:00:51 <Phantom_Hoover> That is immaterial to me doing the same. Hold yourself to your own standards.
20:01:28 <pikhq> Pity that it's a piece of shit that can't have OpenWRT installed on it.
20:02:54 <elliott> pikhq: Can I get some opinions on Kitten's package manager?
20:03:09 <elliott> pikhq: http://sprunge.us/acSV
20:03:18 <elliott> pikhq: Specifically, how to do virtual packages like cc there.
20:03:28 <elliott> pikhq: (= means "file contents is", -> means "links to", -- is just an informative note about the file.)
20:04:28 <pikhq> elliott: Definitely one of the latter two.
20:07:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Vorpal I saw your "there?" but can't send messages.
20:07:36 <pikhq> elliott: Mmm, I like the symlink one.
20:07:37 <Vorpal> elliott, and now minecraft.net died too
20:07:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder if one could be causing the other?
20:09:18 <elliott> Vorpal: since the server checks with minecraft.net
20:09:23 <elliott> although who knows if it does it constantly...
20:09:33 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. But once you are connected then it shouldn't... right
20:11:14 <elliott> WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY is strcpy so silly
20:11:20 <elliott> why does it not return dest+strlen(src)
20:11:22 <elliott> that would be actually useful
20:12:07 <Vorpal> elliott, you want strlcpy :P
20:12:34 <Vorpal> elliott, from *bsd. Trivially short function to include with your program
20:12:45 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but it like 10 lines of code
20:13:06 <Vorpal> elliott, how is copying 10 lines of BSD licensed code a pain?
20:13:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Because it should be in the stdlib.
20:13:51 <elliott> Of course I can *implement* it. But strcpy's return value is totally useless.
20:15:06 <Vorpal> elliott, you could google and copy the 10 line strlcpy function?
20:15:42 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't think you quite understand here.
20:16:14 <elliott> Vorpal: "Function FOO is badly designed; its return value is useless. It would be better if it did X instead." "Yes, but function BAR does that!" "That's not in the standard library, and besides, there is no reason for FOO not to do that." "WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST COPYING CODE"
20:16:31 <elliott> I know I *can* copy strlcpy; I shouldn't have to because it's stupid in the first place.
20:17:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought you were looking for what we call a "solution" with this strange alien concept "a minimum of fuss"
20:17:51 <elliott> Vorpal: I would have said "How can I do something like strcpy except returning blah?" except I wouldn't since it's trivial to implement myself.
20:18:25 <elliott> Anyway I just hate C strings and they should die in an eternal pool forever.
20:18:34 <elliott> At least I'm avoiding malloc.
20:19:59 <Vorpal> elliott, what do you prefer rather than malloc?
20:20:27 <Vorpal> elliott, obviously a GC or such yes
20:20:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Uh, right now I'm just using static buffers because fuck anyone who wants to name a package something longer than 1024 characters.
20:20:31 <Vorpal> but for use with C I meant
20:20:39 <elliott> Vorpal: That's not a good solution but it's the path of least resistance at this point.
20:20:44 <elliott> Vorpal: I may stoop so low as to use alloca at some point.
20:20:52 <elliott> oklopol: yeah all my strings are of length INFINITY
20:20:53 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you using C?
20:21:11 <Vorpal> elliott, and you want something buggy
20:21:26 <Vorpal> elliott, haskell would seem like the optimal language
20:21:29 <elliott> Vorpal: I could just use Haskell but I don't feel like bundling multiple 100 MiB binaries with the distro.
20:21:50 <elliott> (GHC produces... rather big programs when linking statically.)
20:22:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Because it's the only contender.
20:22:04 <Vorpal> isn't there one... jhaskell or something?
20:22:13 <elliott> All the others are experimental or not very supporting of things.
20:22:15 <Vorpal> produces small binaries iirc
20:22:25 <elliott> jhc is pretty much ghc's only remote competitor.
20:22:38 <Vorpal> elliott, doesn't it produce quite a lot smaller binaries?
20:22:47 <elliott> Vorpal: It's actually more focused on whole-program optimisation and stuff.
20:22:59 <elliott> I think it uses region inference instead of a GC and other such wacky things.
20:23:15 <Vorpal> elliott, okay surely there are other high level languages that are better than C but produces smaller binaries?
20:23:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Amusingly this program would actually be fine as a shell script but I just don't want to maintain a shell script.
20:23:24 <Vorpal> (smaller than haskell I meant)
20:23:28 <elliott> Maybe if I did it as an rc script. :p
20:23:36 <Vorpal> elliott, what about Go?
20:23:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Go is nice but doesn't really offer *huge* benefits in the arena of Basic String Munging And File Operations which pkginfo falls under.
20:24:17 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't want to use an interpreted language because then every single install of Kitten would depend on that interpreter. Also, if it broke, you'd be *super-fucked* since you can't install a package to replace it.
20:24:19 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. It doesn't use C strings surely?
20:24:26 <Vorpal> elliott, also string munging. Perl?
20:24:31 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't even remember how Go does strings.
20:24:34 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal: I don't want to use an interpreted language because then every single install of Kitten would depend on that interpreter. Also, if it broke, you'd be *super-fucked* since you can't install a package to replace it.
20:24:43 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah I typed it before you said that
20:25:58 <Vorpal> elliott, what about asm? then you can go for your own string representation?
20:26:10 <Vorpal> without much more pain that you would have anyway
20:26:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah that sounds REAL fun. (Anyway I'd have to use libc for file functions unless I wanted huge pain, thus mandating C strings.)
20:26:36 <Vorpal> elliott, but what about the quajets?
20:26:48 <elliott> I have no idea what that is.
20:27:00 <Vorpal> elliott, SynthesisOS? Surely you read about that
20:27:49 <Vorpal> right. Amazingly self modifying OS.
20:28:05 <Vorpal> with stuff like lockless selfmodifying data structures
20:28:20 <Vorpal> self modifying as in code self modifying
20:28:32 <elliott> OK, so it's a specialiser.
20:28:50 <Vorpal> elliott, it had unix emulator. Which beat the crap out of SunOS on the same hardware back then
20:29:06 <Vorpal> some motorola-based CPU iirc
20:29:10 <elliott> Oh, so it actually existed?
20:29:57 <Vorpal> elliott, why shouldn't it?
20:30:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Googling suggested it was a mere Ph.D. thesis.
20:30:14 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it was implemented for that thesis
20:30:56 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot of it was based on DCAS though. Which no modern hardware has
20:32:02 <oklopol> "<elliott> Vorpal: Googling suggested it was a mere Ph.D. thesis." <<< what?
20:32:09 <elliott> Specialisation is definitely very interesting.
20:32:13 <elliott> oklopol: as in not actually implemented, just talked about
20:32:24 <oklopol> sorry i didn't get that implication
20:32:35 <Vorpal> elliott, Double Compare And Swap. As in two different pointer sized target addresses.
20:32:51 <Vorpal> a lot of that stuff it did you can't do cheaply with just plain CAS
20:33:03 <elliott> oklopol: well a Ph.D. thesis talking about a super-advanced OS design is, while valuable, a lot less valuable that a statement that it existed and worked well :)
20:33:06 <Vorpal> but more expensive than locks
20:33:07 <oklopol> i thought you somehow thought phd theses have some sort of upper bound on the greatness of the results, or they are not accepted
20:33:22 <oklopol> yeah i figured the phd thesis came with the implementation
20:33:24 <elliott> oklopol: since awesome OS ideas are easy to generate, implementing and testing them is difficult
20:33:44 <oklopol> and it was just that it was a phd thesis that made it not interesting
20:33:45 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm sure our clocks have exceeded motorola processors of the early 90s enough to make doing it the slow way just as fast
20:34:10 <Vorpal> elliott, it worked well on that hardware. It wouldn't work well on modern massively pipelined hardware. Too many self-modifications in code that will soon be executed and so on.
20:34:10 <elliott> Vorpal: cool DCAS lets you implement STM
20:34:13 <elliott> In his doctoral thesis, Greenwald recommended adding DCAS to modern hardware, showing it could be used to create easy-to-apply yet efficient software transactional memory (STM). More recently, however, it has been shown that an STM can be implemented with comparable properties using only CAS.
20:34:25 <elliott> Motorola at one point included DCAS in the instruction set for its 68k series[2]; however its relative slowness[3] led to programmer apathy. It is no longer included in the instruction set, but CAS remains popular.
20:34:52 <Vorpal> elliott, well since he timed it and managed to beat the crap out of SunOS at that time it couldn't have been that slow
20:35:04 <elliott> Vorpal: I doubt it was solely due to the use of DCAS :)
20:35:52 <Vorpal> elliott, and he wrote it in asm with custom preprocessor
20:36:14 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway how could you possibly have missed this OS? I mentioned it in here before I'm sure
20:36:37 <elliott> Vorpal: I would *love* an architecture optimised for specialisation. That would really be something.
20:36:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes minecraft.net is down
20:37:34 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean, essentially, specialisation is: Copy this code; replace a placeholder with a constant value; optimise code.
20:37:43 <elliott> Vorpal: (Done at the high-level-language level, of course.)
20:37:48 <Vorpal> elliott, it would need modification of code in L1 instruction cache cheap. That is not the case on most modern hardware.
20:37:56 <Vorpal> some architectures even forbid it iirc
20:38:02 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't care about current hardware, I care about new architectures.
20:38:25 <Vorpal> elliott, well synthesis didn't really do it at a high level?
20:38:31 <elliott> Vorpal: ...So it would be really nice to have semi-high-level processor (i.e. one that reduces a tree/graph rather than executing a linear list of instructions) that has hardware support for specialisation.
20:39:11 <elliott> Vorpal: The lovely thing is that specialisation is exactly equivalent to partial application of a pure function; i.e. (lambda calculus) function application, the ultimate operator.
20:39:15 <elliott> Vorpal: It's just an optimisation.
20:39:22 <elliott> But an extremely powerful one, of course!
20:39:23 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but I doubt it would be feasible.
20:39:43 <elliott> http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/ :)
20:39:57 <elliott> That's proof that you can reduce a graph rather than execute a linear list of instructions, in practice.
20:40:23 <Vorpal> elliott, how efficient was it?
20:40:27 <elliott> Vorpal: And really, "Synthesis did it", so which do you think is faster at specialising: an old Motorola or hardware specifically designed for it in 2010?
20:40:39 <elliott> Vorpal: I dunno; I don't know much about the Reduceron. But it's FPGA-based, so not exactly hugely fast.
20:40:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Still, there is a point where we have to decide between raw speed of hardware and *intelligence* of hardware.
20:41:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Would you rather have a really dumb OISC executing at 1 THz or a really, really smart, heavily optimising, practically DWIMing processor for a high level language executing at 1 GHz?
20:41:37 <elliott> Vorpal: (Okay, so the THz/GHz thing is exaggerated and you should probably pick the former.)
20:41:41 <elliott> Vorpal: (But you see my point.)
20:41:41 <Vorpal> elliott, depends on which one gets the job done first :P
20:42:47 <elliott> Talking about this stuff, and then I switch back to my emacs buffer, displaying C code. Ha. Way to remove my motivation, me.
20:43:10 <Vorpal> elliott, yes indeed I don't really care about how it is implemented at hw level as long as I can write it on a high level and then the black box (hw or compiler + hw or whatever) makes it work fast
20:43:36 <Vorpal> elliott, besides it would complicate the courses :P
20:43:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Great -- you've put me standing firmly above the now-creaking trapdoor under which I will fall into a near-bottomless pit filled with FPGAs and instruction set design, from which I, like Loper's Stanislav has already discovered, may never climb back up from.
20:45:54 <Vorpal> elliott, hm clockless would be nice, no?
20:46:06 <Vorpal> elliott, just because clockless designs are pure awesome
20:46:52 <Vorpal> sure you still need clocks in parts that talk with the outside world of the CPU (such as DRAM or IO controllers and so on)
20:47:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I remember seeing a clockless MIPS
20:47:40 <Vorpal> elliott, beat the crap out of similar-speced but clocked MIPSes
20:47:56 <elliott> Vorpal: But how do you advertise that the new processor is FASTER than the old one?! :)
20:48:18 <elliott> I think if the law had mandated that revealing MHz info from the start on any processor by anyone was illegal, we'd have much less stupid processor designs floating around.
20:48:33 <elliott> But nobody can ever release a new, superfast processor with much less clock speed than the last one, because people will complain. Idiots.
20:49:22 <Vorpal> elliott, this one had no MHz count as such. They measured it in MIPS iirc
20:50:05 <elliott> char path[PKGDIRSIZE + PKGMAX];
20:50:05 <elliott> strncpy(path, pkgdir, PKGMAX);
20:50:05 <elliott> strcpy(path + strlen(pkgdir), "/version");
20:50:26 <elliott> Well, I'm sure a Sufficiently Smart Compiler will optimise that all out anyway!
20:53:23 <Vorpal> elliott, are you sure that is safe against buffer overflows?
20:53:33 <Vorpal> elliott, also isn't that strncat?
20:53:54 <Vorpal> stupid C string functions
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20:55:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Uh, yes, it is strcat; I didn't realise.
20:55:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, it isn't there because I made a boo-boo.
20:55:34 <elliott> char path[PKGDIRSIZE + LEN("/version")];
20:55:34 <elliott> make_pkg_path(path, pkgdir, "/version");
20:55:37 <elliott> That's what it looks like now.
20:55:45 <elliott> strncpy(path, pkgdir, PKGMAX);
20:56:03 <elliott> Vorpal: #define LEN(a) (sizeof(a) - 1)
20:56:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Skips the trailing 0.
20:56:18 <elliott> Vorpal: (i.e. LEN(s) == strlen(s) given constant s)
20:56:18 <Vorpal> elliott, so what about the zero byte? won't you need it?
20:56:30 <elliott> Vorpal: PKGDIRSIZE includes a zero byte.
20:56:32 <elliott> #define PKGDIRSIZE (LEN(PKGROOT) + PKGMAX + 2)
20:56:39 <elliott> It's what's used for the pkgdir variable, that's
20:56:45 <cheater99> anyone know that article that was lately on the 'webs that said cpus could have terabytes of cache like, fairly soon?
20:56:47 <elliott> so you just add whatever you need onto it.
20:59:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Hmph... and now you (I blame you) have given me more problems!
20:59:12 <elliott> /pkg/foo/authors is a file of
20:59:19 <elliott> Author Name <optionally@email.address>
20:59:20 <elliott> Author Name <optionally@email.address>
20:59:29 <elliott> but I'd rather show them comma-separated in pkginfo, I think.
20:59:40 <elliott> Let's just hope no package has too many authors.
20:59:51 <elliott> In fact, I should probably just mandate that authors is one line.
21:02:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Hmm, do you think alloca(1024) is safe?
21:02:08 <elliott> Oh, wait, yes, of course it is; I was storing these on the stack anyway.
21:05:57 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:11:04 <elliott> http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2010/11/pypy-14-ouroboros-in-practice.html
21:11:13 <elliott> I love how they auto-generate their JIT.
21:11:35 -!- jcp has joined.
21:12:08 <elliott> -rwxr-xr-x 1 elliott elliott 9.5K Nov 26 21:09 pkginfo
21:12:14 <elliott> I have a feeling this package system is going to be very teeny tiny.
21:13:27 <elliott> pikhq: I just realised that my build-needs/ system has no facility for versioned dependencies.
21:14:14 <pikhq> elliott: Mmm, that's a problem.
21:15:42 <elliott> pikhq: On one hand, there are next to no runtime dependencies, so it's not a problem.
21:15:55 <elliott> pikhq: On the other hand, what about stubborn software that demands, say, an older version of a library to build?
21:16:15 <elliott> Probable answer: "make that older version a separate library".
21:18:56 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and libc updates won't be too much of a pain, because it'll synchronise even the tarballs using rsync.
21:19:10 <elliott> So only the bits of libc that actually change in each program will be downloaded.
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21:51:47 * oerjan now feels fresh and sporty after taking a walk in -15 or so celsius
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22:00:12 <oerjan> pikhq: HEY YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO FREAK OUT
22:21:32 -!- p_q has joined.
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22:26:14 <elliott> pikhq: I think I have decided that versioned dependencies are for losers.
22:26:22 <elliott> pikhq: I MAY BE GOING SLIGHTLY CRAZY.
22:26:53 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/06/maths.alevels
22:27:55 <Vorpal> elliott, you quit just after PH: why?
22:28:02 <Vorpal> and now server went down
22:28:08 <elliott> Vorpal: I decided solo mining is boring.
22:28:15 <Vorpal> elliott, it is efficient
22:28:25 <Vorpal> ineiros, server issues again :/
22:28:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: MATHS: an instrument of the conservative bourgeoisie!
22:31:47 <pikhq> elliott: You probably are.
22:31:53 <pikhq> elliott: Down that road leads Slackware.
22:32:02 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, differential calculus is DECADENT AND CAPITALIST!
22:32:05 <elliott> pikhq: You have to remember that there are something close to *zero* runtime dependencies.
22:32:30 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, right, you despise runtime dependencies.
22:32:37 <elliott> pikhq: Well, it's more that... I'm linking statically.
22:32:44 <elliott> pikhq: So instantly, there are zero, zilch library dependencies.
22:32:50 <elliott> pikhq: And that is almost all dependencies.
22:33:05 <elliott> pikhq: As for build dependencies... why would you ever try and build a package with anything but the latest toolchain and libraries?!
22:33:19 <elliott> If there's some older version of a library that some programs need, just make a package called libfoo-version or something.
22:33:47 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, you don't need to handle versioning of dependencies, then.
22:34:04 <bsmntbombdood> i am working on a declarative system for validating objects, with a directed graph of rules where parents can choose if there is an error and if their children are also run
22:34:15 <elliott> pikhq: Which is nice because it makes things a hell of a lot easier. (I may add versioned dependencies in $future_version...)
22:34:21 <elliott> bsmntbombdood: dunno; probably, but the wheel is probably some random paper
22:34:27 <elliott> bsmntbombdood: it sounds cool.
22:35:32 <bsmntbombdood> Phantom_Hoover: they are database tables in practice
22:36:28 <elliott> bsmntbombdood: object database, presumably
22:36:32 <elliott> what you said doesn't map well to relational...
22:36:43 -!- Sasha has quit (Read error: No route to host).
22:37:23 <bsmntbombdood> elliott: it's an object store implemented on a relational database
22:38:04 <Phantom_Hoover> [[I studied advanced maths to 16. I loved wandering in its virtual world of trigonometry and logarithms, primes and surds.]]
22:38:52 <elliott> <bsmntbombdood> elliott: it's an object store implemented on a relational database
22:38:57 <elliott> bsmntbombdood: why not just do it as an object db
22:39:03 <elliott> save yourself a layer of indirection, specialise it to that task
22:39:47 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Curricular archaism is the political correctness of the conservative classes. To pass muster, a subject must help the economy or, if not, be deliberately irrelevant, a mind trainer. It must have a long academic tradition. It must be obscure. Above all, it must not be novel or popular with students.]]
22:40:38 <Phantom_Hoover> A deliberately irrelevant mind trainer, with neither novelty nor popularity.
22:40:43 <elliott> just kill everyone who disagrees
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22:41:45 <bsmntbombdood> elliott: a brilliant idea, until you realize that then there would be no one to sign my paychecks
22:43:39 <elliott> bsmntbombdood: sign your own
22:43:55 <bsmntbombdood> anyway, i think it's practical to resolve dependencies when you only allow one parent, because you end up with a tree or a loop
22:44:30 <bsmntbombdood> but i'm not sure if you can allow multiple parents with boolean operations
22:46:01 <elliott> darn, /var/pkg isn't really volatile after all
22:46:08 <elliott> because of /var/pkg/*/installed...
22:46:38 <elliott> oh well, whatever, "volatile enough"
22:46:42 <elliott> or maybe i'll just make it /pkg again
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23:00:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, elliott: absurd 1x5 lava lake
23:01:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and 5 high in roof. Perfectly rectangular very tiny cavern :P
23:01:51 <Phantom_Hoover> (In Fine Structure, not Vorpal's Minecraft adventures)
23:04:50 <Phantom_Hoover> (Although the pieces might be fitting together there as well.)
23:05:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed. Almost like lego!
23:05:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, just without the knob-thingies
23:07:13 <oerjan> how can you hate what you cannot understand...
23:11:16 -!- Gooseh has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:11:56 <oerjan> of course the danes are probably horribly insulting us other scandinavians, but we have no way to prove it
23:12:39 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:14:43 <elliott> <oerjan> how can you hate what you cannot understand...
23:14:47 <elliott> isn't that the source of most hatred?
23:15:51 <elliott> the finns are too busy getting drunk and invading russia to acre
23:16:15 <oerjan> also finns speak very clearly and distinctly
23:17:05 <oerjan> the drinking is to compensate for that
23:18:06 -!- Goosey has joined.
23:19:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: All 0 of them?
23:20:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Are JavaScript and its derivatives Languages Of Which We Approve?
23:20:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yes and no.
23:20:35 -!- jcp has joined.
23:22:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Brendan Eich is not to blame. He had 10 days and it had to look like Java.
23:22:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: He spent 10 days by taking Scheme, and making it look like Java.
23:22:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also, only implementing what he could in 10 days.
23:23:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So scoping is fucked up, and... dozens of things are fucked up. Almost everything, in fact.
23:23:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But... it's essentially Scheme, underneath all that.
23:23:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It could have been much worse -- but then one could argue that a straight dynamically-typed Java clone would be better, as at least its appearances wouldn't deceive.
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23:25:21 <elliott> Vorpal: From the start of the Synthesis paper:
23:25:24 <elliott> I must Create a System, or be enslav'd by another Man's;
23:25:24 <elliott> I will not Reason and Compare: my business is to Create.
23:25:24 <elliott> -- William Blake Jerusalem
23:25:29 <elliott> Vorpal: An excellent defence of NIH if there ever was one.
23:26:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Perhaps I shall create my own CPU architecture designed for this kind of insanity and then implement it in x86-64 assembly, rather than trying to develop the architecture with the implementation.
23:27:17 <elliott> Thank god CPUs are so fast; their raw clock speed gives me the margin I need to waste cycles on not sucking.
23:29:36 <zzo38> TeX allows changing category codes, METAFONT does not allow changing category codes
23:30:47 * elliott -- in note to self -- plans to figure out what http://www.1010.co.uk/org/ is saying at some point, since he vaguely recalls doing so and it being extremely relevant to his interests, but cannot make heads or tails of it now.
23:31:16 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, METAFONT does not allow changing category codes!
23:31:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's awful.
23:32:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The LIMITATION!
23:32:09 <elliott> EXTREMELY RELEVANT TO THIS CHANNEL:
23:32:11 <elliott> [[Returning now to the original point, the point (hill) which prescribed the to-be-executed algorithm of vectoral compression, coded for the first time in the obscure Brainfuck notational language, with its crosses, arrows and brackets again projecting forwards the key signs for the walks of the week to come. Compression of language, points and vectors and also a compression of time, a fogged-thicker temporal bandwidth (after Pynchon) wrapping an
23:32:11 <elliott> d enclosing the week. This is precisely what the coarse psychogeophysical measurements aim to accomplish, this dense thickening. It becomes harder to sense which sign precedes or foretells another sign; the necessity for an overlaid series of transparencies, for thoughtographic imprints.]]
23:32:13 <elliott> -- http://www.1010.co.uk/org/summit.html
23:32:24 <elliott> I do recall there being meaningful content behind this farce. :)
23:32:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover and elliott: server has been very stable recently.
23:32:53 <Vorpal> also changed mining pattern to high density
23:33:01 <elliott> Vorpal: http://addictionis.org/; s/any mention of cigarettes or drugs or anything/Minecraft/
23:33:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The font of the body?
23:34:15 <elliott> "Theano Modern Regular", it seems.
23:34:33 <elliott> Find open source fonts at http://kernest.com/styles/web-native
23:34:33 <elliott> and optimize them through http://fontsquirrel.com/fontface/generator
23:36:04 <Vorpal> elliott, it looks like my default serif font
23:36:14 <elliott> Vorpal: your firefox is old.
23:36:17 <Vorpal> I probably lack the font in question
23:36:23 <elliott> Vorpal: no, it's embedded.
23:36:36 <elliott> lol, i have 3.5.15 and it works
23:36:40 <elliott> Vorpal: you have css disabled or something.
23:36:49 <elliott> Vorpal: or you have NoScript enabled; it's probably paranoid enough to block fonts for no apparent reason
23:36:58 <Vorpal> elliott, no css is enabled. Maybe embedded resources are blocked
23:37:08 <Vorpal> unless it is data: or something
23:37:19 <Vorpal> elliott, yes noscript :P
23:37:37 <Vorpal> I have to say my default serif is crisper
23:37:44 <Vorpal> this is a bit hard to read
23:37:55 <elliott> yeah that one isn't very well-hinted
23:38:03 <elliott> it's not like that kind of type is exactly suited to screen display, either
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23:40:26 <elliott> Argh, where's the link to oiu gonw.
23:44:10 <elliott> 10.09.16:14:39:54 <Vorpal> <GreaseMonkey> http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/milky_makes_me_feel.mod <-- augh please include a warning like "this is not something that Gregor would have composed" :P
23:45:17 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Gooed knight).
23:46:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK, remember that system I linked you to?
23:47:15 <elliott> found with the power of catseye
23:47:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
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23:47:16 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:47:19 <elliott> Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at www.memetech.com.
23:47:44 <Vorpal> elliott, it might be temp down?
23:47:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "oiu isn't unix"
23:47:53 <elliott> which appears to not even be web.archive.org'd
23:48:05 <Gregor> Apparently I've become the compositional standard for this channel.
23:48:09 <elliott> Vorpal: well it's still registered
23:48:09 <Gregor> Or at least for elliott.
23:48:19 <elliott> Gregor: read that line more carefully
23:48:22 <Vorpal> elliott, when did you last check if it was up?
23:48:26 <elliott> 10.09.16:14:39:54 <Vorpal> [[[[<GreaseMonkey> http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/milky_makes_me_feel.mod <-- augh please include a warning like "this is not something that Gregor would have composed" :P]]]]
23:48:42 <elliott> Gregor: It's actually just Vorpal being unable to appreciate music that couldn't have been made some hundreds of years ago.
23:48:47 <elliott> Vorpal: It was up a month or a few ago.
23:49:12 <Gregor> Modern pianos aren't 200 years old, so nyah ;)
23:49:17 <Vorpal> Gregor, yes you are the compositional standard. Except for those who you aren't.
23:49:36 <Vorpal> who hates proper music
23:49:50 <elliott> I have never ever said "dudes I hate classical music" ever.
23:49:50 * Gregor imagines that in a pompous British accent for the right effect.
23:49:59 <GreaseMonkey> i appreciate the music Vorpal likes but i also appreciate the music he hates too
23:50:10 <Gregor> Totes time to link Eric Allen's awesome music!
23:50:12 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed I'm just strawmanning as much as you are
23:50:13 <elliott> GreaseMonkey says the right thing for a change! I copy what he said into my input line and press enter.
23:50:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I appreciate hating Vorpal and I appreciate liking Vorpal.
23:50:36 <Gregor> http://erictheallen.com/audio/argylegargoyle.mp3 <-- DUDES it is the awesome!
23:50:53 <Vorpal> Gregor, you linked it before
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23:53:28 <elliott> http://web.archive.org/web/20080411221531/http://www.memetech.com/ RIP cap.pdf.
23:53:37 <elliott> You were too revolutionary to be served by a mere HTTP server!
23:53:39 <Vorpal> elliott, it MIGHT BE TEMP DOWN?
23:53:58 <Vorpal> elliott, and why didn't you save a copy?
23:54:06 <elliott> Vorpal: I PROBABLY DID, BUT I FORMAT MY HARD DRIVE TO NO END.
23:54:26 <Vorpal> elliott, there are so many reasons to not do that you see
23:54:32 <Vorpal> elliott, and now shut up about it :P
23:55:10 <Sgeo> "Added the Antiblocker, an experimental advanced node that only blocks packets when a buffer makes it malfunction. Based on information from Kong member Enthernalcz, this may make Exploit systems Turing-complete."
23:55:17 <Sgeo> http://www.kongregate.com/games/GregoryWeir/exploit
00:01:37 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/code/pkg$ wc -l pkginfo.c
00:01:38 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/code/pkg$ wc -l pkginfo.sh
00:01:46 <elliott> pikhq: I think that maybe an sh-based packaging utilities system is a splendid idea.
00:03:30 <Sgeo> Played the single-player campaign before, but still fun
00:08:53 <elliott> pikhq: Even though sh is terrible.
00:13:13 <elliott> $ busybox sh pkginfo levee | awk '/^Version:/ { print $2 }'
00:13:17 <elliott> I declare it portable and useful.
00:22:20 <elliott> pikhq: Virtual packages: http://sprunge.us/SdDH
00:25:02 <elliott> pikhq: I should probably write the actual installation script in C so that if you replace the utilities a shell version would use it still works...
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00:39:44 <elliott> pikhq: I use $*. Question: Am I bad?
00:40:15 <augur> elliott: you're talkative
00:40:19 <augur> elliott: http://www.jaybirdgear.com/cart/sb2/#
00:40:53 <elliott> augur: they look uncomfortable, putting form above function, and lookinga t it they probably have terrible audio quality.
00:41:03 <elliott> it compresses the audio lossily then
00:45:07 <Sgeo> Why does Perl have an unless?
00:45:37 <zzo38> Sgeo: Because it does.
00:46:17 <elliott> Sgeo: because it reads better
00:48:10 <pikhq> elliott: $*? Not necessarily bad.
00:48:25 <Sgeo> naked blocks should not count as loops
00:48:33 <elliott> Sgeo: Good! Because they don't.
00:48:33 <Sgeo> They should count as ... scopy things
00:48:38 <elliott> Sgeo: Good! Because they do.
00:48:52 <pikhq> elliott: And, yeah, having the installer in C is a good idea.
00:48:52 <Sgeo> The slide for my class says:
00:48:57 <pikhq> Provides an "oh shit" button.
00:49:02 <Sgeo> There are five kinds of loop blocks in Perl. These are the blocks of
00:49:03 <Sgeo> the naked block.
00:49:13 <elliott> pikhq: A good idea that I am ignoring because it's too much of a pain!
00:50:08 <pikhq> elliott: At bare minimum, provide an easy way to run it using busybox.
00:50:19 <pikhq> And make it function using the busybox you ship, of course.
00:50:37 <elliott> pikhq: Why? What's more reliable about busybox vs. ksh?
00:51:01 <pikhq> elliott: Getting a full busybox running is easier than a full coreutils.
00:51:33 <Sgeo> Well, the loop control... stuff (like redo) works in naked blocks
00:51:34 <pikhq> In case of dire emergency, I could readily statically link a busybox from just about any system.
00:51:51 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.wormhole.hu/~ice/ksh/
00:51:55 <pikhq> Of course, you *could* just say "screw it", like Gentoo does.
00:51:59 <zzo38> @d unless(_1) if(!(_1))
00:52:03 <elliott> pikhq: Find me a system with a C compiler and BSD make that this doesn't compile on.
00:52:05 <pikhq> (which requires a full Python installation for the package manager)
00:52:06 <elliott> pikhq: (Hint: Such a system does not exist.)
00:52:18 <pikhq> elliott: Hint: your package manager relies on more than *just* a shell.
00:52:36 <elliott> pikhq: Hint: it's rather likely that the rest of the coreutils is busybox. :p
00:52:40 <zzo38> In my opinion the package manager should not require Python
00:52:49 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, so make it function perfectly with ksh and busybox.
00:53:14 <pikhq> elliott: That is still *quite* easy to set up.
00:53:30 <elliott> pikhq: "busybox sh" is my Portability Checker(TM).
00:53:32 <pikhq> ... Heck, if your package manager relies on just those two, you could probably bootstrap a Kitten system from a floppy disk.
00:53:50 <pikhq> Ah. Yeah, if it works on Busybox sh, it'll probably work anywhere.
00:53:55 <elliott> pikhq: (Also dash, because it's so terrible that nothing that runs on it could possibly fail anywhere else.)
00:53:56 <pikhq> What with being a *subset* of Bourne shell.
00:54:40 <pikhq> Mmm, having a minimal installer smaller than Debian. :P
00:55:51 <Sgeo> I'm pretty certain that this discussion is not about @
00:56:04 <elliott> Sgeo: No, it isn't, but no way am I gonna develop @ on Debian.
00:56:10 <elliott> I want something I can trust not to go stupid overnight.
00:57:00 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm, does using rsync to update a compressed tarball work well?
00:57:07 <elliott> pikhq: Obviously updating a tarball with it is just as good as updating each individual file.
00:57:19 <elliott> pikhq: But do, say, .tar.xzs change more than the set of changes to the original files?
00:57:29 <elliott> Thus making rsync less efficient on these already-compressed things?
00:57:39 <pikhq> elliott: It would not work well with a compressed tarball.
00:58:16 <pikhq> For the *precise* same reasons it doesn't work well with encryption.
00:58:35 <elliott> pikhq: Right, because perfectly compressed data is indistinguishable from random data.
00:58:51 <elliott> But that doesn't mean you can't diff two pieces of similar random data and get a short diff, no?
00:59:03 <pikhq> They won't be similar, in general.
00:59:20 <elliott> pikhq: Well, I'm also not going to run unxz before every rsync and xz afterwards.
00:59:26 <elliott> pikhq: Suggestions welcome. :p
01:00:37 <pikhq> Store uncompressed, use rsync's compression? :P
01:01:01 <elliott> pikhq: Store uncompressed = lol, wasteful. I guess it isn't a big deal, but still.
01:01:18 <elliott> pikhq: (Also, fun fact: I'm compressing the kernel with LZO for the sole reason that it's the fastest to decompress.)
01:03:01 <pikhq> elliott: http://zsync.moria.org.uk/
01:04:20 <elliott> pikhq: Nice! gzip-specific... but better than nothing.
01:04:33 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, the gzip-thing could be readily patched.
01:04:41 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, but I have enough work on my hands anyway.
01:05:01 <elliott> [[If you don't specify the names of any files to put in the archive, then tar will create an empty archive. So, the following command will create an archive with nothing in it:
01:05:01 <elliott> tar --create --file=empty-archive.tar]]
01:05:05 <elliott> tar: Cowardly refusing to create an empty archive
01:05:29 <pikhq> But hey, it's rsync-like and works on compressed files, and seems to work much nicer with standard (easily available) servers.
01:06:12 <elliott> to stop tar trying to second-guess you
01:06:39 <elliott> wtf, that just creates a bunch of zeroes
01:09:31 <elliott> pikhq: Things I hate more than anything: Stuff that remembers its --prefix.
01:09:40 <elliott> I WANT TO BE ABLE TO COMPILE SHIT WITHOUT USING A CHROOT, FUCKERS
01:11:12 <elliott> pikhq: Holy shit, you know fakeroot?
01:12:28 <elliott> pikhq: Guess what version control system it uses.
01:12:36 <elliott> pikhq: The answer is Arch 1, aka tla.
01:12:45 <elliott> pikhq: *The thing uses Arch. In 2010.*
01:12:58 <elliott> I'm sorry, but, I have to respect anyone crazy enough to do that.
01:13:05 <elliott> % tla register-archive fakeroot@packages.debian.org--fakeroot \
01:13:05 <elliott> http://arch.debian.org/arch/fakeroot/fakeroot/
01:13:05 <elliott> % tla get -A fakeroot@packages.debian.org--fakeroot fakeroot--main--0.0
01:13:23 <elliott> tla's motto is "Simple things should be difficult, hard things should cause you to commit suicide."
01:15:34 <elliott> extern.h:200: error: conflicting types for ‘getline’
01:15:34 <elliott> /usr/include/stdio.h:651: note: previous declaration of ‘getline’ was here
01:15:42 <elliott> pikhq: in which glibc extensions harm someone not even using them
01:16:16 <pikhq> elliott: -std=c99 should turn off glibc extensions.
01:16:42 <pikhq> Still, the extensions should *not* be on by default.
01:16:56 <pikhq> Have them all you want, but they should be enablable options, not default.
01:17:29 <pikhq> GreaseMonkey: There's a #define to enable them. That GCC does by default.
01:17:36 <pikhq> You may now curse at GNU.
01:17:53 <zzo38> Maybe the GNU extensions should be disabled if the compiler is invoked by the name 'cc' instead of 'gcc'
01:18:39 <elliott> pikhq: Wait a second, why the fuck does the C compiler change what the glibc does by setting how the code is compiled? Does glibc actually check if the C compiler claims to implement "GNU C", and help it in its evil quest by adding features of GNU C?
01:19:20 <olsner> I think standards mode controls predefined macros and macros control glibc evilness
01:20:14 <pikhq> elliott: Glibc checks if the C compiler claims to implement "GNU C", and helps it in its evil quest by adding featurs of GNU C.
01:20:29 <pikhq> elliott: BTW, another option: gzip --rsyncable.
01:20:42 <elliott> <pikhq> elliott: Glibc checks if the C compiler claims to implement "GNU C", and helps it in its evil quest by adding featurs of GNU C.
01:20:45 <elliott> ha ha ha ha ha ha ha i hate this shit.
01:20:48 <pikhq> elliott: Produces gzip output that is *barely* larger, but readily rsyncable.
01:21:05 <elliott> pikhq: Nice. But I think I'll just use zsync anyway. :p
01:21:09 <elliott> HTTP access is nice, after all.
01:21:28 <pikhq> Yeah; quite a bit nicer to do it all with nothing more than a somewhat-sane HTTP server.
01:26:26 <elliott> pikhq: Dependencies of that: the "set" built-in, the "[" built-in, the "cd" built in, echo, tar, and touch.
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01:28:45 <pikhq> elliott: How's it doing dependency resolution?
01:28:56 <elliott> install_pkg $(readlink $dep)
01:28:59 <elliott> pikhq: Is that naive enough for you?
01:29:07 <elliott> pikhq: Of course install_pkg does nothing if it's already installed.
01:29:20 <elliott> pikhq: Feel free to suggest a better way, but I'm unlikely to use it because... there are no runtime dependencies.
01:29:27 <elliott> Termcap files. That'd be a runtime dependency. Apart from that, uh...
01:29:29 <pikhq> Though likely working just fine for your purposes, because you are unlikely to ever have circular dependencies.
01:29:34 <elliott> Executables that other programs use, obviously.
01:30:02 <pikhq> Yeah, the odds are that your dependency graph won't get ridiculously complex.
01:30:31 <pikhq> And that anyone who really wants "standard" programs can install Gentoo Prefix or something.
01:31:44 <elliott> pikhq: Define "standard" programs.
01:33:03 <pikhq> Expecting your standard, dynamically linked, GNU-filled environment.
01:33:41 <elliott> pikhq: "But why would you want to". :p
01:34:03 <elliott> pikhq: Although I'm hardly unbiased; I'm including Java for one single program. Guess what program.
01:34:55 <elliott> olsner: Minecraft is written in Java.
01:35:05 <elliott> I will not run any OS that cannot run Minecraft.
01:35:45 <elliott> olsner: What do you mean, "wtf?"?
01:36:07 <olsner> elliott running any kind of java thing, if it weren't for minecraft it would be inconceivable
01:36:27 <elliott> olsner: i have a slight feeling you're trolling me here :)
01:36:32 <elliott> olsner: I KNOW YOU'VE USED ANT
01:37:23 <olsner> hmm, no, I'm not really trolling
01:38:34 <olsner> I have never used ant voluntarily, note you
01:39:05 <olsner> but I have indeed used it, which is how I know how horrible and braindead it is
01:39:46 <olsner> it's kind of bancstar+xml+java molded into a build system
01:40:29 <pikhq> Ant is perhaps the worst-designed build system I have seen.
01:40:52 <olsner> ... "build system" - at best you can use it to do sequencing in a language worse than dos/cmd batch files
01:41:17 <pikhq> And I include the horrid monstrosity I once saw that was a hybrid of *interactive* Perl, shell, Make, Autotools, and C in that consideration.
01:41:49 <cheater99> what you have just described sounds like git.
01:41:50 <pikhq> cheater99: Which is also notable for being almost its own OS.
01:41:58 <olsner> even a "do your worst" given all those tools should end up better than ant
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01:42:11 <elliott> ==Phantom_Hoover logreading== I have struck diamond. I WILL NOW ACCOUNT FOR EVERY SINGLE DIAMOND BLOCK I MINE SO THAT IT CAN BE SPLIT 50/50.
01:42:14 <pikhq> olsner: Quite true; Ant is just revolting.
01:42:18 <elliott> Even though it matters not.
01:42:30 <olsner> pikhq: I am glad we agree :D
01:43:11 <elliott> Done; 8 blocks in total. 4 each. I will put them in my chest.
01:43:40 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Ant The sample build file here makes me want to vomit.
01:44:11 <pikhq> It actually demonstrates just about everything wrong with XML.
01:44:36 <olsner> pikhq: lol - it gets MUCH WORSE
01:44:48 <olsner> that's not even a real-world example
01:45:01 <pikhq> It has such a revolting amount of syntactic noise.
01:45:19 <cheater99> tag based languages are in general a mega failure
01:45:24 <cheater99> hadn't found one that doesn't suck
01:45:37 <pikhq> Even just replacing the structure with sexps naïvely would dramatically improve that.
01:46:18 <pikhq> cheater99: With sexps. Lisp syntax.
01:46:26 <olsner> ant is sufficiently braindead and horrible without the syntactic overhead though
01:46:32 <olsner> don't think that's the only fault!
01:46:42 <pikhq> olsner: True, I'm *only* criticising the syntax ATM.
01:47:03 <olsner> it's just... vomit all the way down
01:47:05 <cheater99> olsner: let's write a multithreaded pi computation in ant
01:47:11 <cheater99> olsner: just to prove how bad it can get
01:47:23 <pikhq> Tag-based markup languages are truly vomitous for any usage other than actual markup of text.
01:47:44 <olsner> cheater99: no. ant is not even interestingly horrible
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01:48:28 <cheater99> i'm listening to music which was sequenced from analysis data of a dna protein
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01:49:02 <olsner> cheater99: it's up to you to go ahead and do it, but only do it if you truly have *nothing* better to do
01:49:21 <cheater99> olsner: i have a non-empty set of things better to do
01:49:36 <olsner> cheater99: I'm glad :)
01:49:39 <pikhq> olsner: Why is it that every make replacement has *worse* syntax?
01:50:04 <olsner> pikhq: because make is actually at the upper end of build system sensibility
01:50:13 <elliott> A bunch of coal mined, but whatever.
01:50:29 <olsner> lots of people seem to say "make sucks", then go build something so much worse
01:50:32 <elliott> olsner: that is more a statement about everything except make, than a statement about make
01:50:43 <olsner> elliott: right you are
01:50:49 <cheater99> olsner: well, make works only on some systems
01:51:14 <olsner> cheater99: that's just the anal sex argument
01:51:20 <pikhq> People should look at what make does *right* when replacing it.
01:51:25 <elliott> [Sever] COBOL IS A HORRIBLE LANGUAGE.
01:51:32 <elliott> Cobol is horrible, Netcraft confirms it.
01:51:42 <cheater99> olsner: people needed ant for things which didn't exist on, say, windows at that point
01:51:44 <elliott> olsner: I like how it's now transformed into "the anal sex argument".
01:51:50 <elliott> Oh yeah, you know, that common argument about anal sex.
01:51:51 <pikhq> For instance: its syntax is *simple and readable*, and it is *declarative*.
01:52:26 <olsner> elliott: it isn't afaik, I just thought the analogy was so right for this case
01:52:32 <elliott> olsner: it is as of your message
01:52:58 <pikhq> cheater99: The build system that shipped with the official Mac development stuff was a Make derivative. :)
01:53:22 <pikhq> cheater99: And Windows has had Microsoft nmake for ages.
01:54:23 <olsner> cheater99: are you saying that software was not built on windows before ant?
01:54:31 <pikhq> cheater99: Macintosh Programmer's Workshop. Make and Shell.
01:54:39 <elliott> pikhq: troll, feeding, etc.
01:54:42 <cheater99> it was, but people needed something interoperable
01:55:14 <elliott> note initial expressing of ant ignorance and then switching to advocating ant when that seems to be the thing that'll generate more messages.
01:55:17 <pikhq> And anyways, *nowadays* it is very very easy to make an interoperable build system.
01:55:39 <cheater99> elliott: ant ignorance? i use ant in my job.
01:55:43 <cheater99> you know, that thing you don't have.
01:56:57 <olsner> doubly maintaining separate build systems always existed. makefile/project/whatever generators are also available. also, cygwin (for shell scripts while still supporting windows) and scripting languages
01:57:19 <olsner> in other words: there is no problem that any solved that didn't already have a better solution
01:57:21 <cheater99> cygwin sucked very much when ant was being created
01:57:52 <olsner> no part of cygwin has suckage in the amounts that ant does
01:57:57 <pikhq> I'm fairly certain that just having two completely different build systems sucks less than ant.
01:58:10 <cheater99> i'm just reminding you of the premise :p
01:58:10 <pikhq> (make and Visual Studio)
01:58:32 <pikhq> (or just saying "screw it" and build with mingw)
01:59:24 <elliott> cheater99: am i meant to feel inferior because i do not yet have to work to sustain myself?
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02:05:49 <olsner> good night, and beware of ant
02:08:06 <Gregor> <pikhq> I'm fairly certain that just having two completely different build systems sucks less than ant. // build WebKit some time.
02:08:14 <Gregor> It has at least four separate build systems.
02:08:53 <elliott> More coal, blah blah blah.
02:19:47 <cheater99> ok, gotta clone this hdd. bbl sweeties
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02:24:16 <pikhq> Gregor: As in, one build system for each OS.
02:24:26 <pikhq> Gregor: Not an unholy hybrid of build systems.
02:24:39 <elliott> Gregor: He means that one build system is what he prefers to ant.
02:24:43 <elliott> Thus invalidating your example.
02:25:03 <pikhq> Lemme guess. A large part of it is KDE-autotools.
02:25:18 <Gregor> pikhq: On Mac OS X, each subsystem is independently maintained in a separate XCode build, but only JavaScriptCore will build in XCode. They have to be cobbled together by a series of convoluted Perl scripts.
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02:25:28 <pikhq> (KDE's usage of autotools is sufficiently unique to count as a seperate build system, IMO)
02:25:37 <Gregor> pikhq: It uses autotools for GTK+, qmake for Qt.
02:25:53 <pikhq> ... So they redid the entire KHTML build and made it worse.
02:26:23 <pikhq> elliott: KDE 3, which Webkit was forked from, used KDE-autotools.
02:26:26 <Gregor> pikhq: Something else for ETL, it has two build systems for Windows (one for VS, one for MingW/Cygwin), and a wholly separate build system based on scons for Chrome. Also it has cmake stuff in there I haven't been able to identify the user of.
02:26:34 <elliott> pikhq: Right. Although I think late KDE 3 used cmake.
02:26:40 <pikhq> Which had a gigantic swath of its own macros to replace most of KDE 3's functionality.
02:26:53 <Gregor> And I think the wx fork must have went away since I haven't seen it lately.
02:26:59 <pikhq> elliott: The Cmake switch came into being well after porting to Qt 4.
02:27:28 <pikhq> Erm, s/KDE 3's/autotools'/
02:34:25 <elliott> 1. Mine endlessly in Minecraft. Pick up tons of valuable materials.
02:34:31 <elliott> 2. Discover a HUGE, and ore-rich, cavern system
02:34:41 <elliott> 4. Find what you think is a path you haven't tried yet.
02:34:44 <elliott> 5. There's lava on the way.
02:34:56 <elliott> 6. Successfully execute a jump onto the platform in the middle! Fuck yeah!
02:35:02 <elliott> 7. Jump forwards to get out.
02:40:42 <Sgeo> "Lose everything"?
02:40:52 <elliott> Sgeo: Die -> lose inventory.
02:41:04 <elliott> Including the tons of stuff I mined, all my trinkets, and all my tools.
02:41:11 <elliott> I have enough to rebuild them with some tree-punching in my chest, but still, fuck that shit.
02:41:22 <elliott> I should have just poured water over it. ...Why didn't I...? EURGH YASD
02:42:14 <Gregor> Holy fuck. EFL uses cmake. But it's not the ONLY user of cmake. I don't know what the other one is.
02:42:19 <Gregor> This has at LEAST a dozen build systems.
02:42:55 <elliott> Gregor: You are so making me not want to package anything that uses WebKit :P
02:43:07 <elliott> Gregor: I bet it's two times the fun if you want to create static libraries, right?
02:43:18 <elliott> 999999999999999M libwebkit.a
02:43:24 <Gregor> I doubt very highly that it's capable of that.
02:43:36 <elliott> Gregor: I am pretty sure it is, actually.
02:43:38 <Gregor> Although the GTK+ build definitely does create them since it uses .la
02:43:41 <elliott> At least the suckless guys seem to think so.
02:43:44 <Gregor> But I doubt it's capable /in general/ of doing that.
02:43:56 <Gregor> That is: Only 1/3rd of its hundreds of build systems support that ;)
02:44:00 <elliott> Gregor: Thankfully, I'm doubly uninterested in building non-gtk versions :P
02:44:14 <elliott> And most make/cmake stuff will let me just pass -static and go on with my life.
02:44:32 <Gregor> Oh look, Android uses a different build system from Chrome, and is Make-based.
02:44:48 <Gregor> Y'know what's terrible? I am currently NOT looking for build systems. I'm trying to do something else.
02:44:57 <elliott> http://terryxu2008.blogspot.com/2008/08/webkit-runs-on-fltk.html
02:45:10 <elliott> "Hey guys! I ported WebKit to FLTK, which is a major and useful development! Now watch me never say anything about it again, or release the source!"
02:45:19 <elliott> Just a WIIIILD weekend hack!
02:45:53 <Gregor> Good, don't need yet another build system :P
02:47:09 <elliott> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhyNobodyDeletesWiki -- voted for title most likely to cause harm to the wiki :P
02:47:22 <elliott> WhyNobodyPressesEditAndSelectsAllAndThenPressesSaveOnThisPage
02:47:30 <elliott> WhyNobodyPressesEditAndSelectsAllAndDeletesAndThenPressesSaveOnThisPage
03:05:24 <elliott> Vorpal: this synthesis thesis is *wonderful*!
03:05:27 <elliott> thank you for pointing me to it
03:10:37 <Sgeo> LightBot 2.0 has a level editor
03:11:11 <Sgeo> And recursion and conditionals, don't remember if the first had either
03:11:28 * Sgeo goes to play a bit of RoboZZle
03:12:33 <Sgeo> My brain seems to be off right now
03:14:13 <Goosey> How would I clear a screen in brainfuck...
03:15:37 <elliott> Goosey: You can't. But if you assume a standard terminal -- 25 lines on Windows, 24 on Unix -- then you can just print that number of newlines to be sure you're on a blank screen.
03:15:43 <elliott> Of course you might be further down than that.
03:15:49 <elliott> There is ANSI codes and stuff you can output but bleh.
03:16:13 <elliott> Goosey: If you keep track of how many multiples of 80 chars you have printed (because it wraps the line at 80 chars), and how many newlines, you can do (24 or 25) - that to get how many lines you need to output. But is it really worth the bother?
03:16:18 <Goosey> elliott, how do commands like clear and cls work?
03:16:29 <elliott> Goosey: cls, I don't know.
03:16:40 <elliott> Goosey: clear, as you can see, uses special control code.
03:16:44 <elliott> there, ^[ = the escape character
03:16:59 <elliott> will clear an ANSI-compliant screen
03:17:24 <Sgeo> Never thought I'd type man can
03:17:26 <elliott> Goosey: escape is ascii 27
03:17:30 <Sgeo> man cat for that matter
03:17:55 <elliott> Goosey: so basically print 27, print "[H", print 27, print "2J". you probably want to print 10 after that for new-line so that it gets flushed to the terminal; otherwise it might be buffered and not happen
03:18:08 <elliott> although that might actually leave you on the second line of the new screen, so you'd have to use cursor codes to go up
03:18:27 <elliott> Goosey: you will find http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code useful
03:18:33 <elliott> all the various ANSI escapes
03:19:07 <elliott> Goosey: btw, i don't know of any brainfuck programs using the ansi escapes. so you may be innovating here :)
03:19:18 <elliott> Goosey: of course having to output a newline to have any of them take effect is a real blocker. but good luck.
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03:27:05 <elliott> olsner: so do you want me to summarise what i was thinking for that tarpit kernel or not? :p
03:35:42 <elliott> olsner: http://sprunge.us/gXiR
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03:50:19 <Goosey> assuming * are escapes
03:50:31 <Goosey> (I cant send the escapes in this I guess)
03:51:29 <elliott> Goosey: 'cuz ANSI said so :)
03:51:36 <elliott> Goosey: [H will do something and 2J will do another thing
03:51:39 <elliott> see my wikipedia link for exactly what
03:51:56 <elliott> Goosey: but you need a newline after that, probably, or the OS won't send it to the terminal
03:52:40 <elliott> Goosey: only some things start with [
03:52:48 <elliott> the ^[ thing is either coincidence or poor choice
03:52:50 <Goosey> i haven't run it yet, except in the interpreter
03:52:56 <elliott> (poor choice in putting [ after it that is)
03:52:59 <Goosey> I'm sure that if it's compiled to asm there is a higher chance
03:53:39 <elliott> since it's still likely to use the C stdio
03:53:45 <zzo38> I think the 2J (clear screen) does have [ before it
03:54:00 <Goosey> THATS WHAT I WAS SAYING XD
03:54:32 <elliott> we offer advice from the finest of minds, nobody ever said it had to be *accurate*
03:54:43 <zzo38> Only single-character escapes have no [ while the control sequences (where there is a list of zero or more numbers separated by semicolons, followed by a command code) do have [ because ESC [ is the control sequence introducer.
03:54:46 <elliott> sometimes the oracle of wisdom doesn't bother checking!
03:59:06 <elliott> *[H*[2J and then want to read input without printing another newline
03:59:08 <elliott> that would be impossible i think
03:59:38 <Goosey> I dont know if this is supposed to happen when compiling with beef
03:59:43 <Goosey> but I'm totally getting the thing cleared
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04:01:35 <Goosey> I thought it might have been an escape code
04:01:42 <Goosey> but I never would have known wich
04:02:32 <wxl> anyone know where I can find more info on prelude?
04:02:46 <elliott> ah, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Prelude?
04:03:05 <elliott> wxl: well Nikita Ayzikovsky is our friendly or... uh, semi-friendly absentee channel op, lament
04:03:14 <elliott> wxl: if you hang around here for a week or three he'll turn up
04:03:48 <elliott> wxl: and of course information on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fugue is likely to apply
04:03:52 <elliott> since Prelude is just Fugue in ASCII
04:04:26 <elliott> http://web.archive.org/web/20060504072859/http://z3.ca/~lament/prelude.txt draft spec on internet archive
04:04:27 <wxl> sadly I'm not well versed in musical notation
04:04:49 <elliott> i suggest just sticking around here, it's entertaining enough to be worth the wait :P
04:04:55 <elliott> he pops in basically regularly.
04:05:40 <wxl> sounds good
04:07:36 <wxl> this aint much different than wots on the wiki
04:07:51 <wxl> wish I could find some other sample programs
04:08:11 <elliott> i remember seeing some fugue tracks by someone who came in here.
04:08:16 <elliott> tracks, programs, whatever :P
04:08:46 <wxl> damnit I guess I must resolve to learn music :D
04:08:59 <elliott> wxl: just enough to convert to prelude :P http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/fugue/src/hworld.mid
04:09:50 <wxl> you know that much elliot? :)
04:10:02 <elliott> wxl: no, i just have a copy of the entire channel logs and grep(1)
04:13:59 <Goosey> I wonder if this brainfuck program is faster than clear...
04:14:12 <Goosey> doubt it because clear is inline
04:17:22 <elliott> bash: builtin: clear: not a shell builtin
04:17:22 <Goosey> Oh, i assumed it was :/
04:17:45 <zzo38> I made a game that has a scroll in it somewhere with the message "This game is bad because Hitler played it"
04:17:56 <elliott> unlike the GNU implementation of true(1) and false(1), clear seems to not have --help or --version
04:18:23 <zzo38> Why should a implementation of true(1) false(1) need --help or --version or anything else?
04:18:32 <elliott> you can't make this shit up.
04:18:41 <elliott> For complete documentation, run: info coreutils 'true invocation'
04:19:38 <zzo38> Just write in assembly language the true and false program, or machine-codes, for your machine, and then write a simple version in C if needed for cross-platform however
04:20:07 <elliott> You really really don't need to whip out asm...
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04:20:43 <zzo38> I agree GNU packages are very crazy and bloated mostly, which is why I wrote internationalization.wi program and these things. I like to use the GNU GPL for many of my own programs, though. (For others I use public domain)
04:21:11 <zzo38> elliott: You do not need asm for all programs, but the one as simple as true/false should be simple enough to write a few bytes of machine-codes
04:21:30 <elliott> int main(void) { return 0; }
04:21:38 <elliott> and not waste your time micro-optimising a utility where it's totally unneeded.
04:21:57 <zzo38> elliott: Yes you can do that too.
04:22:19 <Sgeo> "As you may know, BINARY is a language devised by machines to CONFUSE us."
04:27:38 <Goosey> The only compiler I have found for linux seems to crash when I try to use it :/
04:28:06 <elliott> Goosey: You are not looking nearly hard enough, there are hundreds!
04:28:18 <elliott> Goosey: The state of the art is http://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/
04:28:26 <elliott> Goosey: which generates highly efficient C
04:28:32 <elliott> Goosey: and compiles Hello world to a single print statement
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04:29:54 <elliott> Goosey: There's also "also written in brainfuck" which is a compiler written in brainfuck outputting x86 Linux assembly among others... but really, just use esotope for the best :P
04:31:35 <Goosey> when copying the assembly I accidently deleted the last line
04:32:06 <elliott> Goosey: There's no real reason not to use esotope since it's so heavily optimising.
04:32:15 <elliott> It will beat any to-assembly compiler I know of.
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04:38:55 <zzo38> I have idea to make up a roguelike game (I wrote it on paper already), the front-end and back-end each written in Enhanced CWEB, and the program to generate format files written in gforth. This program is a combination of D&D (3.5e), Magic: the Gathering, ADOM, Nethack, ToME.
04:40:40 <zzo38> When I write some in the computer, I will post it
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04:44:39 <Goosey> too bad its to C not assemeblee xD
04:44:42 <zzo38> The tunes.org logs does not log the PART messages, it only logs it is part
04:45:24 <zzo38> Like, the log file says "20:42:11 --- part: wxl left #esoteric
04:45:42 <zzo38> but my screen says ":wxl!~wxl@c-98-232-228-160.hsd1.or.comcast.net PART #esoteric :"into the aether..."
05:18:06 <pikhq> Goosey: There's not *much* benefit for assembly for Brainfuck compilation.
05:18:49 <pikhq> Especially when your optimiser does some crazy crazy stuff already.
05:19:01 <Gregor> Today's myth is: That something written in assembly will naturally be faster than the equivalent written in C!
05:19:02 <Goosey> Yeh, oh well, I'm not writing in brainfuck to save the workld :P
05:19:10 <Gregor> The reason it's a myth? Because C compilers are much, MUCH smarter than humans.
05:19:23 <Goosey> Despite being written by humans
05:19:30 <pikhq> And because assembly is only faster than C if the assembly programmer is brilliant.
05:19:57 <pikhq> For an example of this, see: x264.
05:20:06 <Gregor> Goosey: Hahah, of course I'm kidding, we were written by humans!
05:20:12 <Gregor> I mean, C compilers were written by humans!
05:20:17 <Gregor> Also they're not sentient!
05:28:11 <Sgeo> There are some who believe we were written by something smarter than humans
05:28:38 <Sgeo> Although I don't think they'd use the word "written"
05:28:51 * Sgeo suddenly sees the time gap
05:33:19 <Gregor> They can't have been THAT much smarter with how much they fucked up ... frankly I would assume that if that's the case, they were at or below our intelligence, just much farther than us in technology.
05:33:50 <Gregor> And don't give me any of this "benevolent omniscient deity" bullshit :P
05:35:56 <Sgeo> What protections could a smart creator provide against cancer?
05:36:10 <Sgeo> (Just wondering, not saying "Oh, what you're saying is wrong"
05:36:38 <Sgeo> The cell already has safeguards. How many more safeguards could be added?
05:36:44 <Gregor> More redundancy. And I wasn't really arguing that that in particular was a fuck-up, there are far more fundamental fuckups we don't even think about.
05:37:03 <Gregor> They're so fundamental that you wouldn't even realize them normally.
05:37:20 <Gregor> Things like having a sleep cycle and being an animal capable of advanced math with a prime number of fingers.
05:37:45 <Gregor> Things like storing excess spare energy in a form that's harmful and we can't voluntarily expel.
05:37:58 <Sgeo> We don't have a prime number of fingers
05:38:08 <Sgeo> Unless you have an extr.. oh
05:38:09 <Gregor> Yes, we're symmetrical, la-dee-da.
05:38:20 <zzo38> The people and planets are invented by the Universe.
05:38:25 <Gregor> But the result is that our base for counting is 10, which is an utterly-useless base with only two divisors.
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05:39:05 <Sgeo> We should go back in time and chop off everyone's pinkys
05:39:23 <Sgeo> Note: In real life, I am not a Lamarckian
05:39:30 <Gregor> Which furthermore is totally useless for interop with base-2 systems, which is the most sensible base for things like computers since it doesn't require anything more complicated than a greater-than comparison so it's easily convertible to and from analog.
05:39:33 <zzo38> And many of these thing are supposed to be like that. If you do not like it, modify your own body by cutting off your fingers or whatever you want to do.
05:39:52 <Gregor> There is no supposed to.
05:40:13 <Gregor> There is no divine purpose. We have five fingers because that's how many fingers our ancestors evolved.
05:40:33 <Gregor> They didn't evolve a number of fingers ideal for math because math is not necessary for sex.
05:41:06 <Sgeo> <insert add subtract divide multiply joke here>
05:42:50 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes, and that is the divine purpose, of what is supposed to be. The divine purpose of what is supposed to be, is how many fingers your ancestors evolved. It can happen by random, but many things mixed up together and then the probable and supposed to be is the way Universe evolves by quantum uncertainty principle.
05:43:32 <Gregor> Your definition of "supposed to" is, I would therefore say, totally unhelpful.
05:43:54 <zzo38> (I do not mean there is a divine purpose for the evolution of that many fingers, what I mean is that the evolution of that many fingers *is* the divine purpose, the divine purpose is not *for* that.)
05:44:53 <Gregor> That's sort (in fact precisely) like saying that a god most certainly exists by the materialist definition of "god"; sure, it's true for that definition, but such a god confers no value to life, so who cares.
05:45:45 <Sgeo> There's a materialist definition of "god"?
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05:46:26 <zzo38> But feel free to please cut off your own fingers or modify your DNA or whatever you like to do to yourself. But do not force to do other people unless they said OK at first explicitly, and only in a small group.
05:46:28 <Gregor> Sgeo: A being is just a complex ongoing computation (by the CS-y materialist definition ;) ). The universe is a complex ongoing computation. Therefore the universe is a being. That being is god. That god clearly exists. QED.
05:46:49 <pikhq> Gregor: Clearly we should time travel and give humans a total of 8 fingers.
05:47:01 <Gregor> Eight or twelve would be great :)
05:47:05 <Sgeo> Gregor, do Christians ever state that as a proof of God?
05:47:15 <Gregor> Sgeo: No, that's not a Christian god.
05:47:24 <Gregor> And I would shy away from capitalizing "god" for that god :P
05:47:27 <Sgeo> I can still imagine someone saying it
05:47:42 <Gregor> That's part of my argument of why I'm agnostic and not an atheist :P
05:47:58 <zzo38> That is not a proof of God (I think it should be capitalized; the non-capitalized "god" means something different); it is just an opinion of God.
05:48:19 <Sgeo> I thought agnostic was "It can't be known" not "It depends on your definition"
05:48:36 <Gregor> zzo38: The capitalized "god" is the name of a particular deity; this deity is not that deity.
05:48:40 <zzo38> Sgeo: There is different kind of "agnostic".
05:49:01 <Gregor> One of them is "ignostic", which is "I can't answer the question because the question isn't even definable"
05:49:19 <Gregor> With the further caveat that any useful definition yields an unanswerable question.
05:49:39 <Gregor> (Where that question is "Is there a god?" or "Is there a higher power?")
05:49:58 <Sgeo> "The Christian God" is a useful definition, with a clear cut answer -- No
05:50:14 <Gregor> Mmm, even that depends on your flavor of Christianity.
05:50:14 <zzo38> Gregor: No that is not what I mean by the capitalized/uncapitalized. The non-capitalized "god" is used when the term "gods" can be used for many of the same if applicable. The capitalized "God" is the "supreme being" or such, or whatever; hence, it is usable as a name and can be capitalized.
05:50:18 <pikhq> Sgeo: Not that clear cut.
05:50:27 <pikhq> "Christianity" is a *class* of religions, not a single one.
05:50:34 <Gregor> Certainly the fundamentalist God (everything in the Bible is rock-solid Truth with a capital T that's a crucifix) is false.
05:50:59 <zzo38> I am also agnostic; but a lot of difference from other agnostic.
05:51:10 <pikhq> Gregor: Yes, an all-loving and all-hating God is quite a contradiciton. :)
05:51:17 <Sgeo> What would a form of Christianity that can be true in a materialistic universe look like?
05:51:57 <zzo38> There is many denomination of Christianity, including Illogical Christianity (a.k.a. "Chicken", as Jack Chick).
05:52:52 <zzo38> The Bible literally is all contradiction and nonsense and lying. Therefore, do not read the Bible literally if you want to mean anything from it (but there will still be many different opinion, which is also OK).
05:53:30 <Gregor> Religions' ability to convert useful parables into useless "truth" is pretty impressive actually.
05:54:00 <Gregor> I kind of wonder e.g. in ancient Greece or Rome how much people actually believed in the literal existence of their pantheons of gods.
05:54:22 <Gregor> Or their one pantheon of renamed gods, really :P
05:54:27 <Sgeo> Aren't there some parts that aren't supposed to be directly from God? (Psalms, Song of Soloman), so what do fundamentalists mean by "the whole Bible"?
05:54:42 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes many religious stuff often does convert useful parables into useless "truth".
05:54:58 <Gregor> Sgeo: Fundamentalists believe that all of it was inspired by God and is therefore Truth with a capital T that's a crucifix.
05:55:23 <pikhq> Sgeo: Uh, Song of Solomon is... Porn.
05:55:55 <zzo38> Whether or not anything in the Bible is directly from God, is irrelevant, in my opinion. I do not believe God directly wrote it. Say it is "inspired by God" though if you want to; that is OK with me if you want to say that, but is OK also if you prefer to don't say that.
05:55:55 <Sgeo> Therefore, Porn is the Truth!
05:56:30 <pikhq> And Psalms is just poetry and songs in worship of God.
05:56:50 <Gregor> Well nobody believes that God literally penned the Bible (I think?), everyone believed it was penned by humans with divine intervention.
05:57:11 <Gregor> And by "everyone" I mean "all relevant people" or something :P
05:58:25 <zzo38> The Bible was written by many authors; even reading Genesis, it is clearly that the first chapter and second chapter are different.
05:59:13 <Gregor> Anyway this is a craaaaaaazy tangent :P
05:59:27 <Gregor> The point is we have five fingers per hand and that totally sucks.
05:59:40 <Gregor> And we spend 1/3rd or more of our time unconscious for no clear reason.
05:59:42 <zzo38> Gregor: Then cut off your fingers if you dislike that.
06:00:30 <Gregor> zzo38: Cutting off MY fingers does not help, I could just as well count in a different base than everyone else, the number of fingers we have has caused a problem that permeates literally all math.
06:02:24 <zzo38> Gregor: Well, that is what you can do; if you do not like it, then do not to do it, please.
06:02:29 <Sgeo> It's not our fingers' fault that we use pi instead of tau=2pi
06:03:01 <Gregor> zzo38: It is merely an argument that we were not created by a being that is both omniscient and benevolent, it is not some bizarre social complaint.
06:03:10 <Sgeo> You don't need the "to" there in "to do"
06:03:25 <Sgeo> Someone please explain to me why?
06:03:33 <zzo38> Sgeo: That is a completely different reason having to do with mathematics. There are some reasons why 2pi is better and sometimes pi, so that is why pi used.
06:03:51 <Gregor> Sgeo: Because it's in imperative, not infinite form ...
06:04:01 <Gregor> Sgeo: "do it" is an imperative, as is "do not do it"
06:04:53 <zzo38> Gregor: It is OK to argue about created by or not, since there is many different opinion based on different reasons. Your opinion argument does work, though, so it is OK.
06:05:20 <Sgeo> Why was I uncertain of that?
06:07:21 <zzo38> I could live with only 2 fingers in each hand (I have tried), but it is difficult and I have no intention to do so. Therefore, I have 5 fingers in each hand (if you count a thumb as a finger (some people don't)) and it is work good.
06:08:18 <Gregor> Six fingers would be great too.
06:08:41 <zzo38> There are a few people with six fingers, I think. But it is very rare.
06:09:01 <Gregor> It's even rarer for it to be a fully-developed and usable finger, rather than just a deformed stump.
06:09:37 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes. But it has happened, even though it is even more very rare.
06:10:40 <zzo38> (Do you want to know why I have tried? It has something to do with D&D game; the way I play it comes up with many strange (and sometimes obscure) questions, some of which I can answer and some of which I cannot answer.)
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06:17:00 <Sgeo> I feel like I'm acting out an artificial hyperness of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidYouJustHaveSex that sort despite not in fact getting laid
06:17:17 <Sgeo> Ok, that may have been TMI for this channel
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06:55:20 * oerjan gets the brilliant idea to actually _search_ the wiki for "Site maintenance" and "reserve copy page", finds two missed spam pages
07:14:15 * Sgeo googles for a creepy quote
07:14:39 * oerjan also searches for quot, amp and lt
07:15:13 <Sgeo> "However, one could always draw stoic comfort from the possibility that perhaps in the course of time the new vacuum would sustain, if not life as we know it, at least some structures capable of knowing joy. This possibility has now been eliminated."
07:15:21 <oerjan> ...darn the search doesn't include words shorter than 4 letters
07:16:24 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure that "this possibility" is supposed to mean the idea of vacuum decay, but it looks like it's referring to the possibility of structures that can know joy in the new vacuum
07:16:35 <Sgeo> And how effect-depleting when I explain something
07:17:02 <Sgeo> Actually, I may be wrong and that "this possibility" may be referring to those structures
07:17:52 <Sgeo> Anyone want to read http://www.slac.stanford.edu/pubs/slacpubs/2000/slac-pub-2463.html to help me out?
07:18:46 <Sgeo> Right before that bit in http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/19/sidney-coleman/
07:19:32 <oerjan> Sgeo: i'd hazard a guess any dual meaning is entirely intentional
07:19:48 <Sgeo> Why is it so bloody impossible to select text in Chrome's PDF reader
07:19:53 <Sgeo> "This is disheartening"
07:19:56 <oerjan> also, i don't seem to be able to revert the Brainfuck Constants page. darn hugeness.
07:21:02 <Sgeo> TL;DR: AFAICT, it's the depressing meaning
07:29:58 * Sgeo needs a mood depressant
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09:12:41 <oklopol> "<Gregor> And we spend 1/3rd or more of our time unconscious for no clear reason." <<< i slept 14 hours the night before last, 11 now
09:13:46 <oklopol> "<zzo38> Sgeo: That is a completely different reason having to do with mathematics. There are some reasons why 2pi is better and sometimes pi, so that is why pi used." <<< no, pi is never better
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10:43:37 <Ilari> Both major estimates of IANA IPv4 depletion are now under 100 days...
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10:49:35 <Ilari> And before adress space runs out, it starts to fragment, with maximum allocatable block falling in size. Right now it is still /8.
10:51:11 <Ilari> (VARIOUS, LACNIC and AFRINIC all have free complete /8). And IANA has 11 of those in pool.
10:52:04 <oerjan> well i guess once IANA runs out they'll start counting down for individual NICs...
10:55:11 <Ilari> Or actually, it might be that once the first RIR (APNIC) depletes, allocations diversify to other RIRs (which will then fragment the routing table to hell).
10:59:28 <coppro> no matter what, BAD THINGS will happen
10:59:37 * coppro is at an organization with a /16, so there
11:00:35 <coppro> in fact, due to it having a /16, I have a Real IP Address
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11:12:20 <Ilari> Heh... NIC (GbE) in this new computer supports jumbo, but NIC (fast ethernet) in this old computer doesn't.
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15:24:46 <elliott> 21:42:50 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes, and that is the divine purpose, of what is supposed to be. The divine purpose of what is supposed to be, is how many fingers your ancestors evolved. It can happen by random, but many things mixed up together and then the probable and supposed to be is the way Universe evolves by quantum uncertainty principle.
15:24:55 <elliott> Gregor: Can you translate this from word soup to English?
15:25:50 <elliott> 21:49:58 <Sgeo> "The Christian God" is a useful definition, with a clear cut answer -- No
15:26:07 <elliott> Actually, the clear cut answer is more like 2^(-(number of claims made in the Bible or thereabouts)).
15:27:10 <elliott> 21:56:50 <Gregor> Well nobody believes that God literally penned the Bible (I think?), everyone believed it was penned by humans with divine intervention.
15:27:11 <elliott> 21:57:01 <Gregor> *believes
15:27:11 <elliott> 21:57:11 <Gregor> And by "everyone" I mean "all relevant people" or something :P
15:27:41 <elliott> 21:59:42 <zzo38> Gregor: Then cut off your fingers if you dislike that.
15:27:43 <elliott> 22:02:24 <zzo38> Gregor: Well, that is what you can do; if you do not like it, then do not to do it, please.
15:28:34 <elliott> 22:17:00 <Sgeo> I feel like I'm acting out an artificial hyperness of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidYouJustHaveSex that sort despite not in fact getting laid
15:28:41 <elliott> I have no idea what you just said, but you're fucked up, dude.
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15:42:55 <elliott> [[Why would someone who refuses to use new technology or follow business requirements or write code that no one else can maintain be a 'real programmer'.]] --proggit; all the replying concurring commands are talking about wasting company money and time. Sigh.
15:43:09 <elliott> Can we just kick out every software company from the universe, please?
15:43:19 <elliott> (It's in the reply to the Story of Mel.)
15:47:00 <elliott> Vorpal: thank you times a gajillion for this synthesis paper, btw
15:47:24 <elliott> i just wish it wasn't in badly-rendered .ps
15:49:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I read a html-ised version
15:50:06 <Vorpal> elliott, the ps one I would like to see
15:50:36 <elliott> Vorpal: I recommend the HTML version! But: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.29.4871
15:50:43 <elliott> The PDF is just a conversion of the ps and so is even worse.
15:51:32 <elliott> To be honest, http://valerieaurora.org/synthesis/SynthesisOS/ with a bit more LaTeXy CSS would be nicer.
15:57:31 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm not sure i quite understand what a callout is
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15:59:21 <elliott> can you try and explain it? he's sort of just glossed over it in three sentences
15:59:22 <Vorpal> elliott, trying to remember. Was over a year ago I read it
15:59:32 <Vorpal> elliott, if you can job my memory a bit.
15:59:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Well I'd copy and paste except the ps doesn't let me.
16:00:05 <Vorpal> elliott, so the html version?
16:00:12 <elliott> The interface to a quaject consists of callentries, callbacks, and callouts. A client uses the services of a quaject by calling a callentry. Normally a callentry invocation simply returns. Exceptional situations return along callbacks. Callouts are places in the quaject where external calls to other quaject's callentries happen. Tables 4.2, 4.3, and 4.4 list the interfaces to the Synthesis basic kernel quajects.
16:00:12 <elliott> Callentries are analogous to methods in object-oriented systems. The other two, callbacks and callouts, have no direct analogue in object-oriented systems. Conceptually, a callout is a function pointer that has been initialized to point to another quaject's callentry; callbacks point back to the invoker. Callouts are an important part of the interface because they specify what type of external call is needed, making it possible to dynamically lin
16:00:13 <elliott> k one of several different quaject's callentries to a particular callout, so long as the type matches. For example, the Synthesis buffer quaject has a flush callout which is invoked when the buffer is full. This enables the same buffer implementation to be used throughout the kernel simply be instantiating a buffer quaject and linking its flush callout to whatever downstream processing is appropriate for the instance.
16:00:39 <elliott> for the BufferIn quaject, get and read are callentries, and fill (replenish the empty buffer) is a callout
16:00:49 <Vorpal> elliott, sounds like delegates?
16:01:04 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah but i have a feeling it's more than that...
16:01:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Also, don't you mean "function pointer"? :)
16:01:46 <Vorpal> elliott, well sure but delegates is more specific than function pointer. It indicates a specific use
16:03:46 <Vorpal> elliott, well, function pointers can be used for stuff like dlopen() while I can't remember having seen delegates used for anything than "subscribing" to an event kind of thingy
16:04:35 <elliott> Vorpal: do you know if this system or at least its entire source is available anywhere?
16:04:37 <Vorpal> elliott, but I'm not completely sure what callout is
16:04:39 <elliott> I would love to emulate it somehow.
16:04:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I think source has been lost. Read someone claiming that somewhere. But I don't know for sure
16:05:26 <elliott> Vorpal: The irritating thing is all these little snippets of 68k assembly -- so much nicer than x86 :P
16:11:46 <elliott> Vorpal: is it bad that i'm just trying to ignore everything even vaguely imperative in this paper?
16:12:46 <Vorpal> elliott, err. How could you possibly do that?
16:12:52 <Vorpal> elliott, it is very imperative
16:13:28 <Vorpal> elliott, would the thing even make sense ignoring the imperative bits?
16:13:35 <Vorpal> elliott, still synthesis?
16:13:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Synthesis is a pure optimisation; f^create(x)(y, z) = f^big(x, y, z)
16:14:06 <elliott> Vorpal: It is known as "specialisation" in functional programming circles.
16:14:23 <elliott> Vorpal: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/05/three-projections-of-doctor-futamura.html
16:15:03 <Vorpal> elliott, yes indeed. But the way it is implemented (handcoded asm) is very imperative
16:15:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, sure. But you could implement the quajects in a pure, high-level language, I would think.
16:15:32 <elliott> Perhaps modified slightly.
16:15:38 <elliott> Vorpal: (Language designed for this purpose, that is.)
16:16:13 <Vorpal> elliott, functional: certainly. Pure one I'm less certain of
16:17:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, we'll have to see.
16:18:42 <Vorpal> elliott, has this completely changed plans for ehirdOS?
16:20:40 <elliott> Vorpal: In fact I was already strongly looking into a functional specialisation-based system.
16:32:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Aww, there's a ByteQueue quaject. It should be a Queue[Byte] instead, and be specialised. :)
16:43:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Very clever how the "self" argument problem is avoided by effectively doing "instance->method = specialise[class->method(instance, ...)]".
16:44:15 <elliott> (For small procedures; and then having larger procedures know what self is, but then call the class method with it as the extra parameter.)
16:44:55 <elliott> Vorpal: How does this fit into the tiny size?!
16:45:40 <elliott> 256 kilobytes of ROM for "the entire Synthesis kernel, monitor, and runtime libraries".
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17:13:23 <Vorpal> elliott, also 256 KB was large back then
17:13:37 <elliott> Vorpal: run-linking is one of its forms of dynamic linking, that resolves symbols only when they are used
17:14:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think I read that paper from end to end. I read the bits I was interested in
17:14:21 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway linux only resolves symbols when needed iirc
17:14:34 <Vorpal> unless you pass some special linker flags
17:15:15 <elliott> Vorpal: You can't link a program that does
17:15:18 <elliott> if (0) { podkfsdpfjsdiofsd(); }
17:15:30 <elliott> In Synthesis using the run-link system, you can, and it'll run fine because that code path is never executed.
17:16:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant in a different sense
17:16:28 <Vorpal> elliott, the sense of relocations in ELF binaries only being resolved when hit
17:22:08 <Vorpal> elliott, minecart system complete btw
17:22:42 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh fuck you, I forgot that game existed until right now.
17:37:48 <elliott> Vorpal: that going-down has led me to discover the source of all MP lag/sync issues.
17:37:56 <elliott> Vorpal: You know how when people walk continuously, you see it as them walking in short spurts?
17:38:13 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, when I was on the cart there, I kept going forwards a bit, and then resetting back to where I was, continuously.
17:38:16 <elliott> Vorpal: What I have discovered is:
17:38:22 <Vorpal> yes I seen that happen
17:38:32 <elliott> Vorpal: The client *runs the game world itself* without the server. It does not do any prediction.
17:38:35 <elliott> So carts move, but people stay still.
17:38:44 <elliott> Vorpal: And then, when the server tells it "what's up", it completely forgets everything it did and updates to that.
17:38:45 <Vorpal> elliott, and you are going to have a hell cleaning up duplicate carts if you timeout while riding one
17:38:54 <elliott> Vorpal: This also goes a long way to explain the double-mining bug.
17:38:58 <Vorpal> elliott, yes this is called "prediction"
17:39:09 <elliott> Vorpal: As I said, it does not do any prediction.
17:39:19 <elliott> It merely simulates the world *without any other actions*.
17:39:29 <elliott> So everything you do takes effect, but it does not even try to predict what another player will do.
17:39:31 <Vorpal> elliott, which is just a sort of prediction
17:39:33 <elliott> If it did, movement would not be in spurts.
17:39:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Ehm, no. Look it up.
17:39:44 <Vorpal> elliott, well a primitive form
17:39:54 <Vorpal> elliott, "I predict everyone else will do nothing" :P
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18:14:43 <elliott> Vorpal: btw there's more cool things in the mine
18:14:45 <elliott> Vorpal: lava lakes for instance
18:15:03 <Vorpal> elliott, mhm. Is that huge one still left?
18:15:14 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway entrance is how water safe
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18:54:09 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm taking a break :P
18:54:18 <Vorpal> elliott, you will have to /home then
18:54:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt you will find your way out
18:54:44 <Vorpal> elliott, also why did you call me crazy?
18:55:00 <Vorpal> elliott, this is nothing compared to the computer in minecraft. Or Enterprise in it
18:55:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, seriously. Get some perspective
18:55:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Computer is just a bunch of redstone shit. Engineering really.
18:55:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Enterprise was done with an editor
18:55:42 <Vorpal> elliott, there are crazier mines on the forum
18:55:57 <elliott> Vorpal: but none of them are on our server!
18:55:57 <Vorpal> elliott, a whole thread dedicated to density/efficiency calculations
18:56:03 <Vorpal> oklopol, I have no idea
18:56:04 <elliott> oklopol: big enough that i got lost (so like more than 3x3)
18:56:19 <elliott> oklopol: also he uses SHORTHAND on his signs
18:56:21 <oklopol> how many minutes to walk from one end to other
18:56:23 <elliott> oklopol: and has some freaky multi-layer displacement thing
18:56:26 <elliott> oklopol: no ends, it's all... sandwiched
18:56:31 <elliott> oklopol: he calls branches shit like "B1.1+"
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18:56:44 <Vorpal> elliott, no that is branch 1.1 "and above"
18:56:56 <Vorpal> elliott, B1.1, B1.2 (and in future 1.3 and so on)
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18:57:11 <Vorpal> elliott, that is what the + means
18:57:28 <elliott> oklopol: just listen to him!
18:57:39 <elliott> he's planning for B1.3, which means that B2 must be like five years away
18:57:54 <Vorpal> elliott, no. 2 would be one layer higher
18:58:23 <Vorpal> the first number is the vertical index in that section. The second is the horizontal one
18:58:56 <Vorpal> like 1 space from my corridor that I just widened
19:01:43 <Vorpal> elliott, and S0/S1/S2 are "service station <nr>"
19:01:57 <Vorpal> elliott, the system is perfectly sensible
19:02:09 <Vorpal> elliott, considering the size of the signs
19:02:15 <elliott> oklopol: he said "CAV" and "Btlp" because typing "Cavern" and "Boatloop" would, i dunno, get too tedious after doing it 459834758935 times
19:02:18 <Vorpal> elliott, if I typed this out it would require several signs
19:02:38 <Vorpal> elliott, because it fit with the rest of the notation on the signs :P
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19:02:45 <Vorpal> elliott, also it should say BTL. Must be a typo
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19:03:36 <Vorpal> elliott, fixed that sign now
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19:03:51 <Vorpal> elliott, another advantage: confusing you
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19:05:08 <elliott> http://www.randomfactory.com/lfa/doslinux.html
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19:05:57 <Gregor> elliott: Somebody made a prepack Debootstrap installer for Android.
19:06:27 <elliott> Gregor: NO DON'T LOOK AT IT
19:06:34 <elliott> Gregor: IF YOU KNOW OF PRIOR ART YOUR HACKING FEELS LESS FUN
19:06:47 <Gregor> elliott: It doesn't do the X11 stuff, which is the interesting part anyway :P
19:06:52 <elliott> (I refused to google for any info on putting another distro on the Ubisurfer :P)
19:06:57 <elliott> Although it probably isn't there, it would DESTROY THE FUN ANYWAY.
19:07:08 <elliott> Gregor: I only looked up how to do Windows NT for MIPS in an emulator BEGRUDGINGLY.
19:07:48 <elliott> "thanks for the suggestions no further forward first command said not found second gave me link to the website third said unknown among other things about make and model will keep trying ill get there in the end always do ohh if it helps most off the files in /etc are .d file type"
19:08:28 <Vorpal> elliott, markov chain?
19:08:41 <elliott> Vorpal: no, very confused human
19:08:58 <Goosey> markov chains are fun :D
19:09:06 <elliott> "if it helps most off the files in /etc are .d file type" made that line I think
19:09:15 <Vorpal> elliott, either this means markov chains are sentient or that human isn't.
19:09:50 <Goosey> once, I used a markov chain to convert binary to decimal
19:10:40 <Goosey> but its not the best way :?
19:10:42 <elliott> Gregor: Vorpal: Thanks for the suggestions! I'm no further forward. The first command said "not found". The second gave me a link to the website. The third said "unknown" among other things about make and model. I will keep trying. I'll get there in the end, always do. Oh, if it helps, most of the files in /etc are of the ".d" file type.
19:11:20 <Gregor> That ... is not a decoding.
19:11:29 <Gregor> All you've done is add punctuation, it's still nonsense.
19:11:46 <elliott> Gregor: There were three commands in the previous post to try and deduce what distro the UbiSurfer runs on.
19:11:57 <elliott> The ".d" file type thing is obviously /etc/init.d and the like, thinking directories are files.
19:12:03 <elliott> The website is the ubisurfer website or whatever.
19:12:09 <Vorpal> elliott, I now have 64 + 5 diamonds that I mined myself :D
19:12:11 <elliott> At least you can read it with context and understand it rather than brain crazy :P
19:12:57 <Goosey> What is this doslinux link O_O
19:13:06 <Vorpal> elliott, /etc/shadow.d (I predict this will happen. Some insane distro will make it happen)
19:13:22 <Vorpal> after all I have ld.so.conf.d nowdays
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19:17:28 <Vorpal> elliott, my tree farm grew
19:17:44 <elliott> oklopol: oh yeah, he has a huge underground tree farm
19:17:48 <elliott> because he is, as i have stated, crazy.
19:17:57 <Vorpal> elliott, that I got from the wiki...
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19:18:30 <Vorpal> ah reconnecting fixed the invisible leaves
19:21:24 <Vorpal> elliott, also nailor said "cool" about my tree farm
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19:21:53 <elliott> The film details the "chronicle of [Holmes's] greatest accomplishment" in which famous detective Sherlock Holmes (Ben Syder, making his film debut) and his companion Dr. Watson (Gareth David Lloyd) investigate a string of unusual "monster" attacks before stumbling on Spring-Heeled Jack's plot to destroy London with the aid of his robotic dinosaurs. The film has recently been shown on the Syfy channel in the United Kingdom. The film is also availa
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19:24:49 <elliott> Vorpal: do you think the synthesis .ps will print nicely
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19:25:54 <Vorpal> elliott, how should I know?
19:26:03 <Vorpal> elliott, besides you don't believe in paper
19:26:08 <Vorpal> elliott, use the html version?
19:26:20 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, how should I know?
19:26:24 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, besides you don't believe in paper
19:26:29 <elliott> well i do when the .ps is this ugly on screen.
19:29:22 <elliott> WHERE IS OLSNER IS HE IN SPACE
19:30:57 <Vorpal> elliott, can a sapling grow if you are standing on it? And what happens if it does
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19:34:11 <elliott> Vorpal: How should I know?
19:34:21 <elliott> Vorpal: I doubt it would. Either that or you'd get stuck in the bark.
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19:36:35 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah probably one of those
19:36:35 <zzo38> Has anyone ever tried?
19:36:35 <zzo38> I dislike PDF and PostScript, they are both really bad idea, in my opinion.
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19:36:41 <elliott> <zzo38> I dislike PDF and PostScript, they are both really bad idea, in my opinion.
19:36:57 <Vorpal> zzo38, so what do you prefer?
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19:37:16 <elliott> zzo38: why do you dislike them
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19:38:22 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes I prefer DVI. DVI is simpler and more sensible. PDF and PostScript are very complicated and full of really messy stuff that does not make sense, including animations and audio clips, attachments, encryption, so on...
19:39:08 <Vorpal> postscript doesn't have encryption afaik
19:39:27 <elliott> zzo38: Postscript does not have animations or audio clips or attachments.
19:39:37 <zzo38> Yes, PostScript does not have encryption, but PDF has a lot of useless stuff like that, though. PostScript has other problems.
19:39:49 <zzo38> A completely different kind of problems.
19:40:55 <zzo38> Mostly difficulty of parsing the file. Both PDF and PostScript have a lot of complexity.
19:41:12 <elliott> zzo38: Please explain how it is difficult to parse PostScript.
19:41:23 <elliott> zzo38: It is just a stack-based language, like Forth.
19:41:29 <elliott> Forth is not difficult to parse and implement, and neither is PostScript!
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19:50:54 <zzo38> As far as I can tell, PostScript is very complicated, and in my opinion is not suitable as an output format.
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19:56:39 <zzo38> And both PDF and PostScript use text formats for their files, too.
20:01:32 <elliott> <zzo38> And both PDF and PostScript use text formats for their files, too.
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20:04:49 -!- Goosey has joined.
20:15:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm adding a lava fall to my castle I think
20:18:04 <elliott> Vorpal: haha, this paper is destroying my mind
20:18:36 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm writing a boot sector now and instead of making a function that calls another function in a loop, i'm putting the wrapper function before that function, changing the future ret to a jmp back here, and then letting it trail through the main body function
20:18:40 <elliott> restoring the ret at the end
20:19:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm trying to make sense of that
20:19:13 <Vorpal> elliott, also it isn't a paper. It is a thesis
20:19:41 <elliott> putstr: ...conditional ret...
20:19:50 <elliott> mov [return_here], *code to jump to putstr*
20:19:54 <elliott> ... code to put a character ...
20:20:08 <elliott> putstr avoids the overhead of a call instruction!
20:20:12 <Vorpal> elliott, how is that relevant to the boot sector?
20:20:23 <elliott> Vorpal: um my boot sector has a putstr function for printing to the console
20:20:37 <elliott> Vorpal: and boot sectors have to be small! and fast. micro-optimisation for the win
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20:20:43 <Vorpal> elliott, and how is that relevant to the paper in question?
20:20:48 <elliott> Vorpal: self-modifying code
20:21:15 <Vorpal> elliott, see the final conclusions in that thesis
20:22:11 <elliott> Vorpal: what were they, i haven't got that far yet
20:22:47 <Vorpal> elliott, "concerns about future up and coming cpu designs" amongst other things
20:23:19 <Vorpal> a pig just stepped off a mountain
20:23:59 * elliott decides this self-modifying thing isn't going to work out
20:28:29 <elliott> "mov al, byte [cx]" stupid stupid this not working stupid x86 i hate x86
20:28:52 <elliott> actually wait what did i do wrong...
20:29:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I now have a nice lava fall on my house
20:29:55 <Sgeo> What's a good VOY episode?
20:30:26 <Sgeo> What's a good TNG episode?
20:30:34 <elliott> Sgeo: well, maybe Scorpion. MAYBE. but that was ruined by deciding to recruit a borg afterwards
20:30:51 <elliott> well, all post-first-season. :P
20:30:55 <Sgeo> Apparently "Shades of Grey" is not well thought of
20:32:58 <Sgeo> Why don't I go watch Time's Arrow?
20:33:24 <pikhq> elliott: There's bad ones post-first-season.
20:33:41 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but you can generally pick a TNG episode at random and get consistent quality.
20:33:43 <pikhq> Sgeo: Good VOY episode? The Thaw.
20:33:56 <pikhq> elliott: True, the bad ones are a *minority*.
20:34:14 <elliott> pikhq: Of course what you should do is pick a DS9 episode, non-randomly, pick the first one, and then next time, pick the second one, and then keep going until you pick the last one, and then stop.
20:34:18 <pikhq> Still. It was one of the few genuinely well-written Voyager episodes.
20:34:24 <elliott> That's the most consistent algorithm to get a quality episode :P
20:34:31 <pikhq> elliott: I'm in the process of that, actually.
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20:34:44 <pikhq> elliott: Sadly, there has been one bad episode in the run so far.
20:34:56 <pikhq> elliott: But that just confirms that only TNG should be allowed Q.
20:35:15 <Sgeo> A bad Q episode?
20:35:29 <pikhq> Sgeo: If it's not in TNG, it's probably a bad Q episode.
20:35:37 <elliott> Bad Q episode: EVERY SINGLE VOYAGER Q EPISODE EVER
20:36:02 <pikhq> Also, Encounter at Farpoint was kinda a bad episode when Q wasn't on-screen.
20:36:19 <Vorpal> elliott, you could do it the reverse way too
20:36:31 <Vorpal> elliott, or start at a random one and loop around
20:37:19 <elliott> Vorpal: DS9 relies heavily on continuity
20:37:46 <pikhq> DS9 is very much non-episodic.
20:37:50 <pikhq> That's one of its strengths.
20:38:03 <elliott> WHY IS X86 SO NON-ORTHOGONAL
20:38:36 <Sgeo> Maybe I should start watching DS9 then
20:38:38 <Vorpal> elliott, with voy you can watch 9/10 of the episodes out of order (ignoring two-part episodes)
20:38:50 <Sgeo> I like continuity
20:38:56 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, indeed, and they'll all suck
20:39:18 <pikhq> Sgeo: DS9 is quite good.
20:39:42 <pikhq> It's the last good Star Trek series, in fact.
20:41:37 <elliott> Does anyone know x86 here? Ata ll?
20:41:51 <pikhq> Man. Voyager and DS9 ran *simultaneously*.
20:42:58 <pikhq> And Voyager did everything wrong that DS9 did right, pretty much.
20:43:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: WHY IS [CX] INVALID
20:43:30 <Gregor> Try playing some Star Trek games on SNES :P
20:43:33 <Gregor> They're all really awful :P
20:43:50 <Phantom_Hoover_> Did you know: [sp] is encoded completely differently to [ax].
20:44:14 <Gregor> You've got either "really slow-paced write down every word you see game: The Musical!" or "Prince of Persia IN SPACE with more ridiculous timing constraints"
20:44:22 <Phantom_Hoover_> http://www.posix.nl/linuxassembly/nasmdochtml/nasmdoca.html
20:44:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: But that's just the thing, [ax] doesn't work either!
20:44:32 <elliott> Gregor: Now blend them both.
20:44:47 <elliott> Gregor: Prince of PERSIA IN SPACE with more ridiculous timing constraints where you have to write down every word you see.
20:44:47 <pikhq> Prince of Persia IN SPACE: The Musical!
20:44:50 <Gregor> pikhq: TNG and DS9 ran simultaneously too, DS9 spanned part of both other series'.
20:44:53 <Phantom_Hoover_> That has a pretty good explanation of both x86-16 and -32.
20:45:04 <pikhq> ... Where can I go to pay for that?
20:45:15 <elliott> pikhq: That would be the worst musical ever :P
20:45:19 <pikhq> Gregor: And TNG→VOY marks good to bad.
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20:45:29 <pikhq> Gregor: Astounding the short transition there.
20:45:40 <Gregor> Eh, Voyager had its moments. I'd say VOY -> ENT marked bad to wtf.
20:46:07 <Gregor> And then ENT -> Star Trek X marked wtf -> Star Wars Trek
20:46:24 <pikhq> Yeah, VOY→ENT was bad to PAIN AND AGONY.
20:47:07 <pikhq> elliott: Though I think he means 11.
20:47:33 <Gregor> Erm, sorry, yes, XI ... I forget the number because they fucked it up.
20:47:38 <elliott> First Contact, Insurrection, Galaxy Quest, Nemesis, Star Trek.
20:47:44 <elliott> (source: http://qntm.org/odd)
20:47:54 <pikhq> Ah, right, Galaxy Quest.
20:47:54 <elliott> Gregor: But I thought (2009) was *good*.
20:47:59 <elliott> Or at least everyone who isn't you has said so :P
20:48:08 <pikhq> I haven't seen it!
20:48:12 <Gregor> It wasn't THAT bad, it just wasn't Star Trek at all.
20:48:43 <pikhq> Gregor: Kinda like The Voyage Home, then.
20:48:43 <Gregor> Then again, I'm defining Star Trek in terms of post-TOS Star Trek, so maybe it's more faithful than I'm making it out to be *shrugs*
20:49:11 <elliott> Gregor: If you're saying "Too much action! Not enough talking!" then thank god because TOS talking bits were awful :P
20:49:15 <elliott> Actually TOS was just awful.
20:49:28 <pikhq> Gregor: Was Kirk a womanising bastard with a gigantic ego?
20:49:32 <elliott> I don't care about anyone who disagrees. It was a terrible TV show and Gene Roddenberry without other people to contain him is a hack.
20:49:39 <elliott> And William Shatner is a terrible actor.
20:49:45 <olsner> elliott: probably you either have to use eax/ecx, or you need some kind of address size override thingy, or you're in real mode and enjoy only being allowed to use e/bx and e/bp in addresses
20:49:52 <pikhq> elliott: I kinda like some of TOS, but yeah, it was corny as hell.
20:49:59 <elliott> olsner: real mode, yes. bleh. wait, what's bp
20:50:03 <pikhq> elliott: And William Shatner is an absolute ham.
20:50:29 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, TOS really wasn't that great, TNG was the height of the franchise which is why I consider it the beginning of "true" Star Trek :P
20:51:45 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover_: x86-32 has one! ECX!
20:51:49 <Phantom_Hoover_> In the normal C calling convention it's used to store something in the call process.
20:51:56 <elliott> what's the cmp meant to be
20:52:00 <elliott> i've totally forgetteneren
20:52:15 <pikhq> Gregor: Nope. That's just more general than the others.
20:52:22 <zzo38> Can you do OR AL AL
20:52:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: so that's really what i have to do?
20:52:34 <elliott> oh, that's probably faster
20:52:49 <Deewiant> mov doesn't set the zero flag.
20:54:04 <elliott> Now to figure out how to write
20:54:15 <elliott> Don't think I can optimise _ptchr itself.
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20:54:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Because I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that boot sector code is probably doing things with ds.
20:54:54 <elliott> Seeing as it has to load stuff in and move it around.
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20:55:02 <elliott> Admittedly it might not be putchring at the same time.
20:55:09 <elliott> Okay, I'll clobber ds and let the caller handlei t.
20:55:14 <zzo38> I have written a bootsector code in case you need to see
20:55:37 <elliott> No, that will be fine, thank you.
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20:56:18 <pikhq> Gregor: Actually, TAS is where Trek started getting good. Though the acting and animation there sucked.
20:56:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Hmm, there's no ret-if-zero, right? Just jump to a ret... hrmph.
20:56:26 <elliott> Also, wait, holy shit, Deewiant spoke.
20:56:30 <elliott> Deewiant: You haven't spoken in like seven years.
20:56:33 <Gregor> pikhq: Never saw TAS *shrugs*
20:56:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: The Animated Series.
20:56:43 <Gregor> Vorpal: The Animated Series
20:56:47 <elliott> Deewiant: Okay, well, at least a few months.
20:57:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Okay! Now to find out why [0xB800:0] is somewhere in the middle of the screen.
20:57:24 <zzo38> I have designed a instruction set that all instructions are conditional, and all instructions are orthogonal.
20:57:40 <Deewiant> Haven't been following the channel much.
20:58:03 <elliott> Deewiant: But all sorts of nothing have happened!
20:58:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, why did you leave the game?
20:58:47 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, perhaps because he has non-Minecraft things to do?
20:58:49 <Deewiant> I was going to say something sarcastic about Minecraft at some point when I noticed that going on, but decided against it.
20:59:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, no: server error
21:00:06 <elliott> Deewiant: "Glad to see you're all getting into Dwarf Fortress!"
21:00:18 <olsner> elliott: you wouldn't be using string instructions to write to the screen? beware that those write to es, not ds
21:00:55 <elliott> olsner: I was actually just doing it character-by-character, but YES THAT SEEMS LIKE A SANER IDEA WHY DIDN'T I DO THAT.
21:00:58 * pikhq actually hopes for a Star Trek series that has the balls to bring back the Kzin.
21:01:07 <elliott> olsner: Thank you for reminding me those exist :P
21:01:09 <pikhq> ... Sorry, a Star Trek series that *doesn't suck* while doing that.
21:01:18 <pikhq> (ENT wanted to for its 5th season)
21:02:12 <elliott> pikhq: Oh dear god, someone on the internet who does the long s thing like did a while ago.
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21:02:42 <pikhq> elliott: Þou muſt punch, þou ſayeſt?
21:03:12 <elliott> olsner: actually, how would the string functions help?
21:03:39 <zzo38> elliott: See my code you learn how the string functions help and how ES segment is used and so on
21:03:43 <elliott> olsner: hmm i guess if i used movsb, but still how would that help?
21:04:11 -!- Goosey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:04:53 <elliott> olsner: i really can't see how that would help :D
21:04:58 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/GGja Note this just copies a single character multiple times, but you can use another string function easily copy a entire string too
21:04:59 <elliott> zzo38: have you got a link?
21:05:04 <olsner> elliott: the point is mostly that they increment si and/or di automatically
21:05:24 <olsner> but I didn't really suggest using them, was rather asking if you were using them already
21:05:54 <zzo38> Yes it does increment SI/DI automatically and you can add a repeating prefix, which is can be used for repeat to copy a string.
21:06:10 * elliott does strings pascal-style instead, might be simpler
21:06:34 <olsner> also they can make simple loops into single instructions with one of the rep prefixes (of which there are a bunch)
21:06:59 <zzo38> Actually I think there is only two possible repeating prefixes
21:07:01 <elliott> olsner: how does that help when i need to have the 0x07 bytes there, too?
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21:09:44 <zzo38> The repeating string commands uses CX register to count how many.
21:10:17 <elliott> zzo38: so would that copy (cx) bytes?
21:11:42 <zzo38> You can see mine as the example
21:12:58 <zzo38> This program is the entire MBR code, including loading the kernel.
21:16:03 <elliott> OK, it works and all, but that still doesn't tell me how I can make it somehow insert the 0x07 byte after every bte.
21:16:45 <elliott> olsner: so did you look at my thing?
21:16:59 <elliott> olsner: http://sprunge.us/gXiR
21:17:29 <zzo38> elliott: Yes you do need to do that, and the repeating string commands in x86 cannot do that, so you would instead make your own loop with these string commands in order to do so.
21:17:39 <elliott> zzo38: But that sort of defeats the point of using them...
21:18:27 <zzo38> You can still use load and then jump if zero and then store and put color and store string next and then repeat over again
21:19:52 <zzo38> However you might still decide to use my code (if you want to) for loading the kernel it is a very simple way to do so.
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21:20:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, missed line before I lost connection "or service station rather"
21:20:42 <fizzie> "This is quite a system indeed." or some-such from me.
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21:20:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, you saw those multi-layer mines
21:21:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, like .^.^.^ in multiple layers
21:28:03 <elliott> "mov dword"s aren't any slower in real mode right?
21:34:43 <olsner> the instruction would probably be a byte longer in real-mode because it'd need a 32-bit prefix
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21:42:13 <elliott> olsner: it's upsetting how long these functions are :(
21:42:17 <elliott> i have cls, putstr, nl (newline)
21:42:20 <elliott> nl doesn't work, the other two are long
21:42:28 <elliott> olsner: I might go back to manually munging VGA memory like my last boot sector :P
21:42:49 <elliott> _cls:mov word [es:di], 0x0720
21:43:55 <elliott> ALWAYS GOLFIN' MAH PROGRAMS
21:44:00 <elliott> olsner: now read http://sprunge.us/gXiR already
21:45:11 <olsner> yes, didn't notice you write 0x0720 as a word
21:46:18 <olsner> I think you can just fill vga memory with zeroes btw, then you only need to zero a register - which doesn't require a fancy constant
21:46:37 <elliott> olsner: that gave me weird artefacts last time i tried but ok
21:46:46 <elliott> somehow after executing this,
21:47:05 <elliott> olsner: filling with zeroes does appear to work
21:47:36 <elliott> olsner: for some inexplicable reason though, writing to [0xB800:0] after that doesn't end up in the top-left
21:49:08 <elliott> now why doesn't nl work...
21:51:15 <elliott> olsner: now tell me how to move or disable the vga cursor without going through the bios :-P
21:51:35 <olsner> out x,y ; fill in x and y
21:51:48 <fizzie> With the VGA registers, it's often several outs.
21:59:21 <elliott> olsner: now will you comment on http://sprunge.us/gXiR?!
22:00:27 <olsner> elliott: hmm, yeah, I should comment on that
22:00:50 <elliott> olsner: are you avoiding it :P
22:04:20 <elliott> olsner: okay stop it, at least say "no it's shitty and i hate it"
22:04:29 <elliott> i had to think to write that!
22:05:27 <elliott> olsner: ;_; why do you do this to me
22:06:09 <zzo38> Maybe I can write a program converting ESC/P codes into DVI, with options for enabling specials to indicate such things as half speed mode, and so on?
22:11:47 <elliott> olsner: remind me to never try and tarpit your kernel again :p
22:14:23 <zzo38> Are there such things as printers with Plan 9 protocol?
22:16:41 <Gregor> I've become obsessed with counting WebKit build systems :P
22:17:20 <olsner> elliott: hmm, since that's just a summary of what we discussed last time, I'm not sure if there is anything more I can add... I still don't like that grant/revoke thing and would rather only have "giving" of pages
22:17:36 <elliott> olsner: it is more! mainly the problems to solve section
22:17:43 <elliott> olsner: also, how the heck would you have freeing of memory with only givinf?
22:17:59 <elliott> olsner: also, there's no "revoking" in my system; there's just re-granting except this time with no permissions, which happens to be equivalent
22:18:13 <Gregor> The tally thusfar (keeping in mind that these are build systems, not backends, although the build systems correspond to backends): XCode, Qt (qmake), GTK+ (autotools), EFL (cmake), wx (autotools), Chrome (scons), Android<2.1 (make), Android>=2.2 (make), MingW (make?), Visual Studio, mystery cmake, whateverTF "gyp" is and whateverTF "waf" is.
22:18:39 <olsner> one thing I did realize though, is that block-until-write is a bit awkward since in most cases you have more than one byte to communicate
22:19:00 <elliott> Gregor: waf is http://code.google.com/p/waf/
22:19:03 <olsner> and requiring completely separate signaling-pages seems inefficient
22:19:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, and down again
22:19:12 <elliott> olsner: i was thinking it'd be sort of state-machiney
22:19:17 <elliott> olsner: block-until-write gives a pointer so you'd do like
22:19:22 <elliott> olsner: mypage - block-until-write(page)
22:19:29 <elliott> olsner: 0 is operation, 1 is arg 1, 2 is arg 2, etc.
22:19:34 <fizzie> I think I'll take a break instead of reconnectering all the time.
22:19:42 <elliott> olsner: but the question is, what if multiple processes want to do ipc at the same time...
22:20:43 <Gregor> elliott: Mmmm, maybe that's what Chrome uses now, although there still seem to be vestiges of scons ...
22:20:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, if you VERY far west you will find a huge marker. Should be visible on TOPO map
22:20:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, with a sign at the base saying a nice message
22:21:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, no torch marked path
22:21:18 <fizzie> I haven't even looked at the map in a long time.
22:21:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, do it. It is huge
22:22:03 <olsner> you'd need to use some kind of lock-free data structure in the shared memory I think
22:22:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, red thing at the bottom of the map
22:22:15 <fizzie> There is a giant tower-looking thing in the topo-map, yes.
22:22:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, 1 wide tower with platform at max alt
22:22:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, did it before health was implemented
22:22:48 <Vorpal> would be nearly impossible to get down nowdays
22:23:03 <fizzie> Uh, you just build it one wider than necessary, and then dig down.
22:23:13 <fizzie> Or rather, one block more.
22:23:40 <elliott> <olsner> you'd need to use some kind of lock-free data structure in the shared memory I think
22:23:42 <olsner> you could... have different data and control pages, write something magic to the control page to wake the process up and make it read some IPC:d stuff from the data page
22:23:45 <elliott> olsner: malicious process goes and clobbers the whole page
22:24:58 <fizzie> ineiros_: I doubt it'd hurt.
22:28:12 <elliott> This macro, it is the useful.
22:29:29 <Vorpal> ineiros_, disconnected
22:29:36 <Vorpal> ineiros_, tell me when it is done.
22:29:46 <Vorpal> ineiros_, I was working on terraforming
22:30:39 <fizzie> No, tell me and not him!
22:30:54 <fizzie> (I assume you will only tell one person.)
22:32:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, or gas (I doubt it)
22:32:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, the only person who likes gas is you, and that's because you're a fool.
22:32:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I presume whoever invented it likes it
22:33:09 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, the people who invented it meant for it to be a compiler backend..
22:33:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, and the reason I like it is that I'm used to that syntax
22:33:25 <Phantom_Hoover_> It is a good compiler backend. It is a terrible language to write anything in.
22:33:31 <Vorpal> ineiros_, upgrade takes long time?
22:34:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, I more often read asm than I write asm
22:35:35 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, it's a terrible syntax to read. More so than to write, actually.
22:36:08 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, what assembler? NASM or YASM?
22:37:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: wanna SPACE-OPTOMISE my code? :p
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22:37:59 <Phantom_Hoover_> I once got fact down to some very small number of bytes, but that's irrelevant and anyway it only worked when it was 32-bit.
22:38:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: 16-bit in this case :P
22:39:36 <Phantom_Hoover_> I don't know very much about 16-bit x86, except that its address scheme is insane, as is its segment system.
22:43:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Boot sector, take two.
22:43:36 <olsner> elliott: hmm, right, it's probably just a bad idea for more than one process to share the same page for IPC:ing
22:44:27 <elliott> olsner: right. which poses a problem. as in, how do you do that.
22:44:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Not hard! But mine's FEATUREFUL.
22:44:52 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, if you have features in the boot sector something's badly wrong.
22:45:15 <Phantom_Hoover_> You have 512 bytes. You do not dick around when you have 512 bytes.
22:45:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Well, my previous boot sector got into protected mode.
22:45:30 <olsner> you have more like 440 bytes
22:45:34 <elliott> *And* had more than one diagnostic.
22:45:37 <elliott> olsner: you have 510 bytes
22:45:40 <elliott> olsner: nobody said it's going in the mbr
22:48:47 <elliott> olsner: holy shit i just realised you can use cp437
22:49:05 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, what diagnostics do you want to do in the boot sector?
22:49:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: EVERY DIAGNOSTIC
22:49:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: More seriously, there's little point not going into protected mode in the boot sector.
22:50:14 <elliott> You can do it with plenty (over half) the space left to waste.
22:50:23 <elliott> And it saves you writing what's essentially a pointlessly long boot sector split in two.
22:51:57 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, OK. You go into protected mode, load the actual startup code, then run it.
22:52:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Diagnostics you need:
22:52:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: "Oops, something went wrong turning on the A20 line."
22:52:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: "Oops, something went wrong going into protected mode."
22:52:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: "Oops, something went wrong reading the floppy."
22:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover_> If something goes wrong in either of those, you just abandon the computer in disgust.
22:53:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I think you underestimate floppy failure rates...
22:53:20 <Phantom_Hoover_> Possibly after printing "Dear god, man, get into the 21st century!"
22:53:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: I see. Where is your OS stored?
22:54:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Also note that reading from a floppy takes less code than from an HD...
22:55:03 <Sgeo> For some reason, I thought people disliked DS9
22:56:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: You really have never written a bootsector.
22:56:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: (Also, good luck trying to make an OS that fills an entire floppy unless you use C++ or something.)
22:57:13 <zzo38> The MBR code I wrote does not check for disk failure (but maybe it should? At least the MBR code is loadable)
22:57:25 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, OK, I'm assuming the floppy isn't a physical floppy disk stuck into a slot on the computer.
22:57:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: no, it's a virtual floppy disk in qemu.
22:58:07 <elliott> If you're testing it on an actual machine: yes, it is a physical floppy disk stuck into a slot on the computer.
22:58:19 <elliott> zzo38: Well, usually the fisrt floppy read has to be done three times.
22:58:30 <elliott> zzo38: The two usually fail on real hardware due to the floppy drive initialising.
22:59:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: No, but who tests their experimental OS on a modern computer?
22:59:10 <elliott> That's just asking for a wiped hard disk.
22:59:33 <zzo38> elliott: You will remove the hard disk first, then.
22:59:48 <elliott> zzo38: And boot it from what exactly?
22:59:57 <elliott> In this case the assumption is that it has no floppy drive.
23:00:05 <zzo38> elliott: From the floppy disk or optical drive or USB.
23:00:13 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, OK, so you have an experimental OS with a boot sector that's useless for modern computers.
23:00:19 <zzo38> Or else, replace the hard disk with the one for the experimental operating system.
23:00:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Not all "modern" computers lack floppy drives.
23:01:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: So what? It's much less annoying testing in a VM anyway.
23:01:56 <elliott> Adding hard disk support can be done later, much later.
23:02:44 <zzo38> The same MBR code can be used with floppy disk and hard disk, I think. And the codes for accessing the disk is also the same if you use the BIOS to do so.
23:04:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: You do realise that any hobby OS isn't bloated enough to run slowly when software-emulated?
23:04:24 <zzo38> My MBR code could be modified to make it try again if the read fails.
23:04:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: You do realise that... what is even your point?
23:04:33 <elliott> Plenty of x86-64 machines have virtualisation.
23:05:20 <elliott> .load:dpstr "Loading kernel...",1
23:05:23 <elliott> it has a smiley face at the end.
23:07:01 <zzo38> I do not know whether or not FreeDOS will load with my MBR code.
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23:12:53 <Vorpal> ineiros_, horrible lag
23:13:23 <zzo38> Do you have any ANSI arts to test the anstomzm.w program?
23:14:03 <ineiros_> Vorpal: For some reason, my outbound connections are horribly slow.
23:15:19 <Vorpal> ineiros_, saw the lava fall at my castle of dread?
23:16:35 <Vorpal> ineiros_, looks wonderful during the night (like atm)
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23:20:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Anyway boot sectors are a pain because you have to read a bunch of data off whatever, move it elsewhere, and repeat. It's more of a pain than it sounds.
23:21:33 <zzo38> elliott: I do not think so, you do not have to do any of that stuff.
23:21:54 <elliott> zzo38: Yes you do, if the kernel is greater than a certain size, or you want to load it in the higher half of memory.
23:23:49 <zzo38> Actually you can just use unreal mode for that.
23:24:03 <elliott> zzo38: The BIOS still can't load outside the 1 meg area.
23:25:07 <Phantom_Hoover_> Kitten or a part of Mitosis or something even more irrelevant/
23:25:18 <zzo38> elliott: And what happened if you define the segments for unreal mode to write the high memory?
23:27:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Why would it be for Kitten? :p
23:27:27 <elliott> zzo38: Uh, that might work. *Might*. I'm pretty sure BIOS calls are always relegated to real-mode style memory.
23:27:43 <elliott> zzo38: Besides, if your kernel is too big you *must* copy it, since the BIOS can't write to more than one segment.
23:27:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Let's call it part of Mitosis.
23:28:01 <elliott> It's aimless coding for inspiration.
23:28:57 <zzo38> elliott: You can read the disk and then change the address and then read the disk a second time in a loop until you are finished with loading the kernel?
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23:30:16 <elliott> zzo38: I don't believe the BIOS can write that far.
23:31:40 <olsner> it wouldn't write far, it would just write several time with different bases :) it might actually work too
23:32:10 <elliott> zzo38: indeed: "Boot record loads kernel image (below the 1mb memory mark, because in real mode that's the upper memory limit!)"
23:32:33 <olsner> assuming the bios doesn't assume that it can get the value of es and restore it later, since that would upset the unreal magic
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23:33:19 <zzo38> olsner: O, yes, that is it, exactly.
23:34:52 <elliott> olsner: that sounds dangerous to rely on :)
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23:40:11 <Vorpal> elliott, how does linux and grub manage to load a kernel image larger than 1 MB?
23:40:51 <elliott> Vorpal: well who knows with the "advanced" things. the obvious thing to do is either the copying thing or uh
23:40:57 <elliott> talking to the IDE driver manually in protected mode?
23:42:32 <Vorpal> ineiros_, new maps yet?
23:43:31 <Vorpal> good thing elliott will never find that easter egg btw.
23:44:02 <elliott> ineiros_: which easter egg would that be?
23:44:20 <Vorpal> ineiros_, you aren't allowed to tell him any details!
23:44:23 <Vorpal> elliott, something I made
23:44:26 <Vorpal> that is all I'm saying
23:45:05 <elliott> i'll just mine out mount vorpal to find it then
23:45:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well it isn't there :P
23:46:06 <Vorpal> elliott, btw you should put a sign halfway down the falling hole in those stairs saying "if you can read this you are going to die"
23:46:19 <Vorpal> elliott, alternatively: "good luck trying to read this"
23:46:55 <elliott> Or how about "HA HA, YOU'RE FUCKED."
23:47:20 <elliott> Vorpal: The stairs are suspended until I patch health out :P
23:47:31 <elliott> And until I get ineiros_ to edit the map to make the first hole down to level 0, so I can fix the alignment of the two.
23:47:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I like health (except for tools)
23:47:59 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, but ineiros_ already said he'll probably apply it if i don't change anything else
23:48:36 <Phantom_Hoover__> Someone actually made a font for the Culture's language. I'm not sure whether it's cool or sad.
23:49:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, private use unicode codepoints?
23:49:58 <zzo38> The font needs to be METAFONT if you are going to use it with TeXnicard. (Or some other format that creates GF)
23:50:34 <Phantom_Hoover__> 'Twould appear that it's just one of those ones which maps over the alphabetic codepoints.
23:51:35 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover__: If it is, then it had better be also the unicode flag is turned off so that it is clearly that is not unicode mode
23:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover__> I am also vaguely irked at the Culture for using 9 bits to encode a character set of 32.
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23:54:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover__: Have you explored the other cavern I found?
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23:57:09 <Phantom_Hoover__> Wait, is that the one where I found a lava stream and a load of stuff lying around?
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00:01:00 <Sgeo> Goosey is a Fooneticer
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00:01:36 <Phantom_Hoover__> elliott, that cavern connects to most of the caves in that area.
00:01:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover__: It does? Ha.
00:01:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover__: There are two massive caverns, I think.
00:02:18 <elliott> olsner: protip: using bios = shorter code :P
00:02:25 <Phantom_Hoover__> It's extremely large; I started exploring it a short distance from the end of the tunnel.
00:02:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover__: I end up getting stuck in circles before I get to too many places.
00:02:49 <elliott> (It is big even then, though.)
00:03:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover__: Also, which tunnel?
00:05:43 <Vorpal> I'd want to place a few torches outside to melt the snow :P
00:08:23 <Vorpal> elliott, Phantom_Hoover__: hah IF you know what to look for you can find part of my easter egg on the topo map
00:08:36 <Vorpal> but if you didn't know where to look and what to look for: not a chance
00:09:32 <Phantom_Hoover__> Vorpal, OK. I can't be bothered playing your little guessing game. I don't really care about pandering to your ego for your little terraforming project.
00:10:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, you completely misinterpret it
00:11:03 <Vorpal> of course you would concur with him. It is only to be expected.
00:11:27 <elliott> <vorpal> bawwwwwwwwwwww ;_;
00:11:47 <Vorpal> oh, oh. It's a sheep right?
00:12:37 <Phantom_Hoover__> Vorpal, if you've put work into something, show it to us, rather than annoying us.
00:12:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, I am however sure that ehird would hate it
00:13:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, besides it isn't done. :/
00:13:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, the completion time is erratic
00:13:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, since trees are involved
00:14:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, look on topo map :P
00:14:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, nice marker to west
00:14:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, since you called your direction "frigid north" I go for "wild west" and "exotic east"
00:15:24 <elliott> w=w, e=e. why? because f=n
00:16:08 <Vorpal> elliott, well no. Wild west because well you know
00:16:21 <Vorpal> and then what was the classical connotation of the east
00:16:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, so I did
00:16:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, it is 1x1 with a platform
00:16:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, I made no torch trail there
00:16:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, that is why I marked it with a tower
00:17:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, what?
00:17:39 <Vorpal> I'll tell when it is complete
00:17:56 <elliott> stfu about it until then, then
00:17:58 <Phantom_Hoover__> I'm assuming north or northwest, since you've mentioned snow and there's obviously been exploration that way.
00:19:01 <Vorpal> elliott, bah, part of it is performance art. That part is code named iHype
00:19:21 <Vorpal> should release some leaks soon ;P
00:22:07 <Phantom_Hoover__> Vorpal, this is seriously stupid. We don't really care what you're doing, since we have no idea what it is.
00:22:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, I'll let you in on it then. You might be able to help too
00:22:44 <Phantom_Hoover__> Stop being annoying about it; finish it in silence, then reveal it, or let us openly follow its development.
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00:40:58 <Vorpal> oerjan, duh that is a type signature
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00:44:06 <Vorpal> oerjan, what: "<oerjan> [0CA0]_[0CA0]"
00:44:15 <Vorpal> oerjan, that was no utf-8
00:44:22 <oerjan> apparently not even my own terminal shows that correctly (but it's fine in the logs)
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00:44:43 <Vorpal> oerjan, I can't load them atm
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00:45:51 <oerjan> um it's supposed to be utf-8. look of disapproval from reddit (technically some indian characters i think)
00:46:14 <zzo38> My terminal shows it as an unknown unicode character.
00:46:38 <oerjan> yeah it's common not to have it in your fonts, afaiu
00:47:55 <zzo38> (PuTTY (the terminal I use for IRC) displays invalid UTF-8 codes differently than unicode characters that are not available in the font.)
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00:48:13 <Sgeo> Dear Laptop: Fuck you
00:48:19 <oerjan> i also use putty, it just showed a blank space. font is courier new.
00:49:17 <oerjan> although it is set to do that recoding/translation stuff, so maybe it is trying to correct somehow.
00:49:42 <oerjan> but still, IE shows it correctly in the logs, and claims the page is utf-8
00:50:17 <elliott> <oerjan> um it's supposed to be utf-8. look of disapproval from reddit (technically some indian characters i think)
00:50:22 <oerjan> (that recoding means i still see things nicely when people are actually using iso-8859-1, i think
00:50:42 <elliott> usually the irc client converts to utf-8 not the termainl
00:50:52 * elliott wonders if oerjan has somehow managed to not realise i'm ehird
00:51:01 <elliott> let's go with yes, that's more amusing than no
00:51:04 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
00:51:32 <elliott> i suppose the annoyingness gives it away huh
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00:52:03 <elliott> hmph, why does this not work
00:52:32 <oerjan> elliott: well yeah it's obviously irssi converting iso-8859-1 on the channel into utf-8 on my screen
00:53:19 <oerjan> or well it should, i'm not sure i've seen it working since i changed my terminal to utf-8
00:53:46 <oerjan> it did convert both to iso-8859-1 as best it could before
00:54:21 <zzo38> oerjan: My font is also Courier New, but it shows not a blank space but a empty square often used for replacement of unknown unicode characters.
00:55:25 <pikhq> Huh. Squeeze to support ZFS root.
00:55:29 <oerjan> oh well. at least Phantom_Hoover's → showed up nicely.
00:56:39 <pikhq> elliott: How else?
00:56:56 <elliott> pikhq: There's a native port going on that is totally illegal to distribute a binary of. (They haven't bothered porting the POSIX layer yet though :P)
00:57:15 <elliott> ineiros_: Reliable way to get a server error and disconnect: Hit (in my case with a sword) a minecart you're in.
00:57:50 <pikhq> elliott: Mmm, illegal.
00:57:53 <elliott> pikhq: It occurs to me that a FUSE / is the stupidest idea ever.
00:57:56 <elliott> Also, not illegal when distributed as source.
00:58:03 <elliott> Could perfectly well go into Gentoo.
00:58:08 <pikhq> It'll certainly go into Gentoo.
00:58:24 <pikhq> They already offer things that are illegal to distribute as binaries, after all.
00:58:26 <zzo38> What makes it illegal to distribute the binary?
00:58:48 <pikhq> zzo38: The license for ZFS is GPL-incompatible.
00:59:13 <pikhq> Because Oracle (formerly Sun) hates progress.
00:59:41 <pikhq> And it would be highly impractical to implement ZFS from scratch.
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01:00:55 <pikhq> ZFS is *ridiculously* good.
01:01:30 <oerjan> so basically Oracle is the current Most Evil Company?
01:01:42 <oerjan> of the large contenders, anyway
01:02:05 <pikhq> oerjan: They have always been, really.
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01:02:20 <pikhq> Well, most evil tech company.
01:02:37 <pikhq> Monsanto and Dow blow all the tech companies away when it comes to evil.
01:03:14 * oerjan hadn't even heard of Dow before now
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01:03:50 <Vorpal> I haven't heard of either
01:04:33 <pikhq> Vorpal: They both manufactured Agent Orange.
01:04:40 <elliott> pikhq: Sun were actually one of the nicer tech companies.
01:04:47 <elliott> Which makes their acquisition all the more depressing.
01:04:54 <elliott> Vorpal: you don't know who monsanto are? lol.
01:05:02 <elliott> also even I knew who Dow are...
01:05:09 <pikhq> Dow Chemical is also notable for the worst industrial accident ever: Bhopal.
01:05:14 <Vorpal> elliott, the name is familiar
01:05:21 <pikhq> Some 16,000 died from that.
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01:05:36 <oerjan> monsanto makes genetically engineered food, modified in such a way that you _have_ to buy new seeds from them every season. probably other evil things, too.
01:05:45 <elliott> "@wikileaks Speaking as Wikipedia's co-founder, I consider you enemies of the U.S.--not just the government, but the people." -- Larry Sanger, Citizendium founder! (Also Wikipedia co-founder, but let's just try and forget that ever happened.)
01:06:08 <elliott> oerjan: they also do bad things to farmers who refuse to buy from them :p
01:06:10 <pikhq> oerjan: They're also a notable chemical manufacturer.
01:06:38 <pikhq> They produce the herbicides and the seeds that are resistant to them.
01:07:27 <elliott> pikhq: They sell water from Bhopal now: http://theyesmen.org/blog/dow-runs-scared-from-water
01:07:33 <elliott> pikhq: (I would link to the actual site but -- alas -- it is down.)
01:07:55 <pikhq> Oh, they've also done DDT.
01:08:31 <pikhq> ... And they had plans to eliminate all non-genetically-engineered members of species they do genetic engineering on.
01:08:39 <oerjan> if they were responsible for bhopal i guess must have heard the name, it's just so forgettable.
01:08:57 <pikhq> So, yeah, they're ridiculously evil.
01:09:02 <zzo38> I do not use herbicides and pesticides and those kind of generic engineering, they will mess up everything and I do not need it.
01:09:36 <elliott> zzo38: what if you were in an area with a shitload of mosquitos
01:11:06 <zzo38> elliott: Wear protection.
01:15:29 <zzo38> elliott: Not necessarily.
01:16:15 <zzo38> Of course that is a bad area to be in, in general; regardless of pesticides, full body suit, or anything else.
01:17:34 <oerjan> the northernmost county of norway is notorious for swarms of mosquitos. fortunately they don't have malaria, though.
01:17:56 <Vorpal> oerjan, similar for north Sweden
01:18:00 <zzo38> oerjan: Then that is good. Since they don't have malaria!
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01:18:38 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Malaria_geographic_distribution_2003.png It's hard to avoid malaria.
01:19:49 <oerjan> oh all of US is free? actually i'd guess some chemical companies would take the honor for that ;D
01:20:08 <pikhq> Yes, that's genuinely courtesy of DDT.
01:21:14 <Vorpal> <elliott> "@wikileaks Speaking as Wikipedia's co-founder, I consider you enemies of the U.S.--not just the government, but the people." -- Larry Sanger, Citizendium founder! (Also Wikipedia co-founder, but let's just try and forget that ever happened.) <-- what caused him to say that?
01:21:23 <oerjan> i am assuming with norway and many other of the green countries it is simply the cold. although i'm sure Italy had it once... the _name_ is from there after all
01:21:39 <elliott> Vorpal: "hurr revealing it puts the people at risk"
01:21:43 <zzo38> I think Wikileaks is the good idea
01:21:46 <elliott> Vorpal: presumably because of, i dunno, TERRISTS or something
01:22:26 <Vorpal> elliott, well I meant: anything specific lately
01:22:38 <pikhq> oerjan: Indeed, it was actually eradicated from Western Europe, the US, and Australia. Other places just never had it.
01:22:41 <elliott> it was in reply to an unrelated thing on the wikileaks twitter
01:22:47 <Sgeo> I thought Vorpal was asking about his distancing himself from Wikipedia
01:23:22 <Vorpal> you completely misread that
01:23:35 <Vorpal> look where the quotes are
01:24:16 <pikhq> Also, the risk is pretty close to nil outside of sub-Saharan Africa, anyways.
01:26:00 <Vorpal> oh major document release coming up tomorrow
01:26:07 <Vorpal> that is what caused it I presume
01:26:12 <oerjan> that "Speaking as Wikipedia's co-founder" just makes him sound desperate, naturally
01:26:26 <elliott> oerjan: especially as he basically hates wikipedia now :)
01:26:31 <oerjan> desperate for attention
01:27:09 <elliott> hmph why can't i use the bios putstr after using my vga memory cls...
01:28:44 <Sgeo> IMO, it depends on what's being released, and how much is being redacted
01:29:37 <elliott> Sgeo: If they redact anything I consider that a blight upon Wikileaks.
01:30:18 <Sgeo> elliott, individual names of people whose lives may be at risk if their names are publicised?
01:30:37 <elliott> Sgeo: Killed by who? The US government?
01:30:42 <elliott> You realise how blatantly transparent of them that would be?
01:31:50 <Vorpal> elliott, diplomatic cable messages it seems
01:31:55 <Sgeo> Maybe persons who've been cooperative with the US who infiltrate whoever? I'm not referring specificially to the upcoming release, I don't know what it's about
01:32:01 <Sgeo> I'm saying in genral
01:32:10 <Vorpal> elliott, like the embassies sending messages home
01:32:12 <elliott> Sgeo: If you restate that in a way that's actually coherent maybe you'll have a point.
01:32:24 <elliott> Vorpal: will be interesting to see.
01:32:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm sure this can cause some well needed embarrassment for some
01:33:27 <Vorpal> some news articles seem to indicate that israel was briefed about potential embarrassment by the US today. Ha. Ha.
01:33:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Admittedly the Wikileaks name is unfortunate; it used MediaWiki but was not much of a wiki. (And they've taken that down due to bandwidth, it seems, as well as all the pre-Iraq War logs leaks.)
01:33:43 <elliott> (Although the "Collateral Murder" video is probably still there.)
01:33:55 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, the US have been telling everyone "You won't like this!" and not much else
01:34:20 <elliott> Vorpal: meanwhile, your government still has a warrant out for Assange's arrest, and recently sentenced everyone in the Pirate Bay case to jail time.
01:34:23 <Sgeo> elliott, no, all _we_ know is that the US is saying "You won't like this"
01:34:37 <elliott> Sgeo: oh yeah i'm sure just that was leaked and nothing else
01:35:16 <Sgeo> elliott, the release hasn't happened yet, has it?
01:35:31 <Vorpal> elliott, Israel are still denying having nuclear weapons right?
01:35:46 <oerjan> <elliott> Sgeo: If you restate that in a way that's actually coherent maybe you'll have a point. <-- now you're just being dense on purpose.
01:36:04 <Vorpal> elliott, one thing to hope for then is that this contains proof for that
01:37:13 <elliott> Sgeo: i mean the fact that they were briefing others
01:37:24 <elliott> oerjan: not really, his statement was too vague to constitute much of an objection
01:38:22 <oerjan> elliott: yet you understand perfectly that there _may_ be people at risk - it was a major issue in previous leaks after all
01:39:13 <oerjan> although those were more directly concerned with war zones
01:39:40 <elliott> oerjan: well yes, if it was a war log thing i'd listen to that complaint more. but embassy messages?
01:39:46 <oerjan> (well may be. we don't know what will be leaked.)
01:39:47 <elliott> oerjan: besides afaik nobody has actually died.
01:39:56 <Sgeo> elliott, hence me saying in general
01:40:05 <elliott> oerjan: "Wikileaks to release 251,287 cables and 8,000 diplomatic directives, 1966-present, none classified as "top secret", only "secret"" --Der Spiegel
01:40:14 <elliott> (indirect quote via reddit :P)
01:40:20 <oerjan> elliott: embassy messages can contain things about informants, surely
01:40:59 <elliott> oerjan: sure, but nothing on the level of war logs.
01:41:12 <elliott> oerjan: and again i don't know that anyone's actually died.
01:41:24 <elliott> i think it's rather unlikely
01:41:25 <oerjan> also we may not know whether anyone has died, i'm sure the taliban and the like kill people on suspicion all the time
01:41:40 <elliott> oerjan: sure, but we'd expect to hear about it. usually.
01:41:44 <Sgeo> Still, anything with an informant's name should be redacted. Just the name. And other material containing enough detail to identify someone, perhaps
01:41:53 <elliott> oerjan: anyway i agree that care needs to be taken in sensitive situations.
01:42:02 <elliott> but definitely don't redact anyone not at risk
01:42:06 <elliott> and don't redact any high-profile figures
01:43:36 <oerjan> why would we hear about it? it may have been some nobody from a remote village who only spoke to someone once too much
01:43:39 <Sgeo> NetHack needs a FooTV and Sequell equivalent
01:44:31 <Sgeo> Was it confirmed that there were informant names present?
01:45:21 <pikhq> My primary complaint with Wikileaks is this: almost all of the information they've leaked is information that should never have been classified in the first place.
01:46:11 <pikhq> Or, even if it should have been, should not have been classified long.
01:46:44 <zzo38> pikhq: But that is why they leak it, isn't it?
01:47:21 <pikhq> zzo38: I'm just damned annoyed that there's anything *to leak*.
01:47:38 <elliott> pikhq: That's not really a complaint about Wikileaks :P
01:47:42 <zzo38> pikhq: Ah, are you annoyed by the government?
01:47:58 <pikhq> elliott: It's more concerning their existence than *about* them, yeah.
01:48:06 <elliott> pikhq: "My main complaint about Wikileaks is that the Iraq war should never have happened!"
01:48:09 <elliott> pikhq: bit of a weird thing to say
01:48:27 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, well, it's true. Fuck Bush so hard.
01:48:52 <elliott> pikhq: Obama isn't exactly perfect either :P
01:49:07 <Vorpal> elliott, better than Bush by far thouh
01:49:24 <Vorpal> elliott, also: pulling out *is* tricky
01:49:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Should have warn a war condom. Wait, what?
01:49:52 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, what indeed
01:49:53 <elliott> Vorpal: And sure, "by far", but really it's a tiny step to the left and people scream "communist".
01:50:03 <elliott> Fuck that, we know what real communists are and they're not Obama.
01:50:18 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed mostly done
01:50:20 <elliott> Obama is a right-wing corporatist, and so was Clinton. And so was just about every modern US president ever.
01:50:24 <Vorpal> elliott, but I meant to get here
01:51:33 <zzo38> My character in D&D game is ettercap; so, now they can make "secret society of those who kill ettercap" and some will be found in the game.
01:52:59 <pikhq> elliott: I don't think Obama's great. Bush was just a right bastard.
01:58:33 <Sgeo> Why the fuck is my computer beeping at me
01:58:55 <oerjan> hm obviously cognate with norwegian "edderkopp" - but is ettercap an old english word?
02:00:08 <elliott> oerjan: It's a network tool :P
02:00:24 <elliott> "An ettercap is one of a race of bestial spider-men aberrations in the Dungeons & Dragons game."
02:00:25 <zzo38> Please tell me if you think this ANSI program is wrong? http://sprunge.us/jTaA
02:00:27 <oerjan> even ettercap -windows -dungeons -sniff -monster gives no google hits not about either the tool or the d&d monster
02:00:30 <elliott> The name is derived from the Danish word for spider, edderkop, and is related to attercop, an archaic word for poisonous spider, used in J.R.R. Tolkien's The Hobbit.[citation needed]
02:00:50 <oerjan> ok so it's been mangled
02:01:11 <pikhq> So, it's a Tolkienism.
02:01:20 <oerjan> well not exactly that either
02:02:02 <Sgeo> MZM is a zzo38 thing?
02:02:14 <zzo38> Sgeo: MZM is a format used by MegaZeux.
02:07:58 <zzo38> I have suggested this "secret society" to the dungeon master (I prefer "referee", the term used in Icosahedral RPG)
02:08:35 <Sgeo> Different games use different terms
02:08:44 <Sgeo> Guess I wasn't aware there was a term besides DM and GM
02:10:29 <oerjan> i think i recall some game used "Storyteller"
02:10:53 <zzo38> oerjan: I suppose that term also works.
02:11:06 <zzo38> I still prefer "referee"
02:11:25 <Sgeo> I think most prefer to go with the term closely associated with the game
02:11:32 <Sgeo> DM for D&D, GM for Paranoia, etc
02:11:46 <Sgeo> DM for Paranoia really doesn't make sense, it's not a dungeon
02:11:58 <oerjan> World of Darkness, it seems
02:12:11 <zzo38> It is not always the dungeon in D&D, either. It is only sometimes.
02:13:14 <Gregor> I just spent an hour and a half tuning my melodica. Huge pain in the arse, but totally worth it, it sounds so much better now.
02:15:03 <zzo38> I like to make my character is monster character in D&D game. I also like to do the other strange thing with D&D game.
02:16:42 <zzo38> Do you like the other strange thing in D&D game?
02:21:24 <Sgeo> I found out where the beeping is coming from
02:21:41 <zzo38> Sgeo: Where is it coming from?
02:21:58 <Sgeo> That I wasn't paying any attention to
02:23:59 <elliott> Gregor: "tuning" your "melodica"
02:24:13 <Gregor> elliott: ... yes. Only without the quotes, since I was in fact tuning my melodica.
02:24:47 <elliott> Gregor: Yes. You were "tuning" "your" "melodica".
02:24:50 <elliott> Gregor: Or rather, you "were".
02:28:26 <elliott> "Gregor:" "You" "were" "tuning" "your" "melodica""."
02:28:51 <elliott> By which I mean "Aardvarks make such tasty bedtime snacks."
02:31:43 <zzo38> Next time my character is also monster character, but perhaps a different one, and perhaps a class I invent, with strange things not in the book.
02:33:42 <pikhq> What else could you mean?
02:34:13 <zzo38> pikhq: Maybe you could mean "This is not 'This is not a pipe'."
02:38:12 <zzo38> This is how it goes: Ettercap: "I am going to put a spell on you." Human: "What spell?" Ettercap: "I am going to put a 'This is not a pipe' spell on you." Real estate agent: "This is not 'This is not a pipe'."
02:39:25 <Sasha> The melodica's a cool dude
02:40:22 <oerjan> elliott: "Now" you are being "silly". By which i mean nearly always, and completely nuts.
02:40:24 <zzo38> This is how I play the game (where my character is the ettercap and your character is human)
02:40:31 <elliott> oerjan: "", by which I mean .
02:40:46 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, exactly. Is that, too, please.
02:40:50 <elliott> pikhq: ha ha, i just wanted dependent typing in haskell.
02:42:50 <oerjan> This is not "Dette er ikke 'Dies ist kein "Ceci n'est pas une pipe"'"
02:43:04 <zzo38> Now I have to invent a "This is not a pipe" spell. (Do you have idea?)
02:43:30 <oerjan> yes. each invocation has to be in a different language.
02:43:32 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, that is the better way, I think.
02:45:36 <elliott> pikhq: ha! I faked dependent types
02:46:31 <zzo38> When I invent this spell, then I can put this spell on someone/something, in the game.
02:46:49 <oerjan> (note: pipa is apparently very vulgar latin)
02:47:32 <zzo38> My character does know many different languages, including ones they cannot speak but can write.
02:47:47 <oerjan> well if you put it on a pipe, the effect should be obvious. but does it have any effect on things that are already not pipes?
02:48:22 <zzo38> oerjan: Maybe it does, but I do not know what it is (yet). (Because the spell is not written, yet)
02:54:26 * oerjan assumes elliott realizes that was a pun on the fact that "vulgar" in "vulgar latin" is not quite the same as its modern meaning
02:54:31 <zzo38> (But, the other guy I put the spell on is not necessarily human, they might even be also ettercap, for instance. Or, even a normal animal or a inanimate object, or the air, or on another of my own spell.)
02:55:24 <oerjan> although given the word in question, it probably has attracted the modern sense too
03:00:28 <zzo38> When I say the spell is called "This is not a pipe", I do not necessarily mean that its target will be not a pipe, what I do mean is that that spell itself is not a pipe.
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03:01:54 <oerjan> a very self-conscious spell.
03:04:28 <zzo38> (Maybe it could mean a pipe similar to how it means a pipe in UNIX.)
03:05:02 <oerjan> i was sort of thinking it could use the widest possible sense of "pipe", so yeah
03:05:46 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, use the widest possible sense of "pipe".
03:06:45 <oerjan> havoc might be had if someone managed to find a sense in which the spell actually _was_ a pipe
03:07:17 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, and that is (part of) the effect of this spell, I guess?
03:07:57 <elliott> GOAL: Write a specialiser for the lambda calculus. PARTIAL RESULT: 39 lines of implementing the "Fin n" type in Haskell.
03:08:34 <zzo38> s/specialiser/spellcaster/
03:08:42 <elliott> in fact only really 18, since the rest are just helper functions. but still
03:09:01 <zzo38> elliott: Correct, I was just joking, plese.
03:12:41 <elliott> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: n = S n
03:13:42 <oerjan> YOUR FAKE TYPES FOOL NO ONE
03:14:05 <Sgeo> Isn't there some extension that bypasses that?
03:16:10 <elliott> Sgeo: no, that would completely break the type system
03:16:24 * oerjan appears to have shifted his puzzle addiction from killer sudoku to light up
03:17:10 <oerjan> i don't think it's so much that it would break as that it would make a _lot_ of things accidentally type correctly which you wouldn't want to
03:17:36 <elliott> oerjan: i think it actually makes the system unsound, not sure
03:17:38 <oerjan> after all, ocaml _does_ have a a switch to turn it off
03:17:49 <elliott> oerjan: i distinctly recall coding something impossible using ocaml's switch to do that
03:18:32 <elliott> oerjan: i don't recall how :D
03:18:47 <elliott> i am probably misremembering
03:19:27 <oerjan> i used it in my unlambda "compiler" with afaik no ill effect
03:19:42 <oerjan> of course i wasn't trying to break anything
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03:20:40 <oerjan> and anyway haskell has newtypes which give you the same efficiency in the compiled program
03:20:41 <elliott> Expected type: Fin (S n) -> LC (S t1) -> t -> LC (S n1)
03:20:41 <elliott> Inferred type: Fin n -> t -> LC t1 -> t2
03:20:49 <elliott> haskell: 99% typechecking, 1% coding!
03:20:59 <elliott> now to figure out what i actually did wrong
03:21:11 <elliott> a simple problem for once :D
03:21:36 <elliott> oerjan: convince me not to write this in coq
03:21:49 * oerjan doesn't see why he should
03:22:21 <elliott> oerjan: because dude, coq.
03:22:47 <oerjan> i don't even really know coq, anyway
03:25:09 <elliott> oerjan: and you know haskell! all the more reason
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03:26:22 <elliott> lol, writing this out i just realised i essentially have a >= condition in my type
03:30:23 <elliott> {-# LANGUAGE GADTs, EmptyDataDecls, ScopedTypeVariables, MultiParamTypeClasses #-}
03:30:27 <elliott> translation: your program will never work
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03:31:21 <oerjan> of course it will work, just avoid IncoherentInstances >:)
03:32:16 <elliott> oerjan: you know, if i didn't bother with all this type-level stuff and just allowed my programs to barf on invalid lambda calculus programs, this would work fine
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03:44:50 <wxl> can someone explain to me why the Fugue cat example is equivalent to 2(?!) in Prelude and not ?(?!) or ?(!?) {equivalent to brainfuck ,[.,]}
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03:46:14 <wxl> to revise the question, i don't get why pushing 2 makes it work. ?(?!) has equivalent function, yet pushing two and asking for input certainly isn't equivalent.
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03:48:41 <elliott> wxl: i doubt we have any experts on prelude here :D
03:49:10 <elliott> wxl: perhaps it isn't equivalent and someone made a mistake?
03:49:14 <wxl> well it's a single voice program which makes it a little more approachable
03:49:23 <wxl> well they both work, which is what's odd
03:49:31 <zzo38> wxl: You can also post the question on the wiki, as well.
03:50:02 <wxl> ah there's a thought
03:52:05 <oerjan> wxl: i think 2(?!) is equivalent to ?(!?)
03:52:30 <wxl> oerjan: explain?
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03:53:21 <oerjan> i think 2(?!) is equivalent _except_ that it doesn't stop on character 0
03:54:45 <oerjan> because the 2 is always what remains on the stack when checking the loop
03:55:36 <oerjan> so dependent on how the implementation treats eof, it might happen to/seem to work
03:56:46 <elliott> lol subst is the most fucked up function ever why
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03:57:34 <wxl> oerjan: they both seem to have no problem with eof.. of course, as you said, the implementation may have something to do with it
03:58:04 <elliott> subst :: (Peano n) => LC n -> LC (S n) -> LC n
03:58:05 <elliott> subst r (Lam e) = Lam (subst r e)
03:58:10 <elliott> why the heck does this fail...
03:59:04 <oerjan> i note that the eof behavior was one of the ambiguities resolved in the http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Prelude&diff=7938&oldid=6758 edit
04:00:23 <oerjan> so maybe one or more of the implementations is older than that
04:01:53 <wxl> i guess that's part of the joy of esolangs: the esoteric, uh ness.
04:02:22 <oerjan> wxl: you could also try asking lament, he is on freenode just not presently on this channel
04:03:14 <oerjan> he doesn't come here very often these days
04:03:54 <elliott> i will read http://www.itu.dk/people/sestoft/pebook/ soon
04:04:06 <elliott> oerjan: i already told him to :)
04:04:09 <elliott> that's why he's still here :P
04:06:48 <elliott> grrrrr, why is haskell inadequate for this
04:06:52 <elliott> i just wanna write a specialiser
04:08:09 <elliott> fuck it, i'll accept invalid programs
04:16:47 <zzo38> Many computer baseball game, but there is not one of cricket? Probably to make a computer cricket game, the accurate physics would be much more important.
04:25:13 <oerjan> http://www.eliteskills.com/z/149741
04:26:03 <pikhq> elliott: Specialisers are hard.
04:26:18 <elliott> pikhq: in this case it was problems with haskell's inadequate type system :)
04:26:38 <oerjan> zzo38: also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Cricket_video_games
04:27:22 <elliott> pikhq: anyway, specialising the untyped lambda calculus, what could be easier, it's basically beta reduction's retarded cousin :)
04:27:53 <zzo38> oerjan: Is it true that accurate physics are more important? Or not?
04:28:35 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't know cricket.
04:29:48 <zzo38> Actually all the games have unrealistic physics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Beach_Sports
04:30:12 <zzo38> I do not know how good the physics compares with the Bocce game in the book "More BASIC Computer Games".
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04:33:23 <elliott> hmm, does Y Y reduce to Y Y or does it grow forever?
04:33:30 <elliott> (ignoring the obvious equivalence, I mean under standard simplifications)
04:37:12 <elliott> pikhq: ok i underestimated the difficulty of a good specialiser
04:38:13 <oerjan> i recall in 0x29A the SII(SII) equivalent grew indefinitely
04:38:41 <oerjan> and that it was basically because Ix wasn't simplified to x other than in head position
04:41:01 <elliott> oerjan: that's not quite Y Y though :P
04:41:21 <elliott> oerjan: simplify :: LC -> LC is one of the gnarliest operations ever
04:41:26 <oerjan> it might depend on the order of your reductions anyway
04:41:30 <elliott> it's basically eval, except you can't do anything that might not terminate. great!
04:41:41 <oerjan> whether you ever get to all that you _could_ have reduced
04:42:03 <elliott> oerjan: is that a deep philosophical treatise
04:42:31 <elliott> my specialiser is too dumb to be able to specialise iszero on zero to true :D
04:42:47 <oerjan> no, but you see if you have something like Ix deep inside your term you _could_ reduce it immediately but you don't need to just to get a correct evaluation
04:43:25 <oerjan> and if you only reduce lazily, you probably won't
04:44:49 <oerjan> SII(SII) -> I(SII)(I(SII)) -> SII(I(SII)) -> I(I(SII))(I(I(SII))) -> I(SII)(I(I(SII))) -> SII(I(I(SII))) -> I(I(I(SII)))(I(I(I(SII))))
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04:47:22 <oerjan> otoh the LC version of that doesn't have that problem: (λx.xx)(λx.xx) -> (λx.xx)(λx.xx)
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04:47:28 <elliott> oerjan: the problem, of course, being that a specialiser is basically just a simplifier of ((\x. E) y); i.e., id is a perfectly "good" specialiser
04:47:34 <elliott> so all this stuff ends up actually mattering :)
04:47:39 <elliott> and there's no clear definition of how to "simplify" something
04:49:35 <oerjan> elliott: have you looked at my unlambda improved abstraction eliminator in scheme? it basically did only simplifications that shrink the result, iirc. mainly ignoring evaluating Sxyz, i think
04:49:49 <elliott> oerjan: no -- got a link? i guess i could grep your website
04:49:59 <elliott> oerjan: lambda expressions of course make this a lot harder :)
04:50:24 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ulify2.scm
04:50:40 <oerjan> it's based on an earlier one in the distribution
04:51:48 <oerjan> oh and it uses some hairy unlambda specific stuff like `d`k...
04:52:19 <elliott> oerjan: wow @ this program
04:53:00 <oerjan> er is that sarcasm or not? :D
04:53:24 <elliott> oerjan: yes. yes it is. :P
04:53:37 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
04:53:41 <elliott> oerjan: hey, it uses inertness like i do!
04:53:45 <elliott> that's, uh, not much of an achievement
04:55:22 <elliott> oerjan: now my TRUE plan is of course to first write a specialiser for the lambda calculus written in haskell outputting lambda calculus, and then write a specialiser for the lambda calculus in haskell outputting C, and then write an interpreter for the lambda calculus in the lambda calculus
04:55:40 <elliott> oerjan: and then running specialiserToC interpL interpL
04:55:57 <elliott> oerjan: thus giving me an efficient interpreter of the lambda calculus in C! MWAHHAHA
04:56:15 <elliott> oerjan: then I shall write a language sitting atop of the lambda calculus, and reimplement my two specialisers in that.
04:56:36 <elliott> oerjan: then i shall do, in my language, (specialiserToC specialiserToC specialiserToC)
04:56:50 <elliott> this will create a C program that, uh
04:57:09 <oerjan> are you doing pure lambda calculus? in which case inertness would just be termination, no?
04:57:22 <elliott> oerjan: this will create a C program that takes an interpreter for a language written in a lambda calculus, and results in a compiler for that language written in C
04:57:40 <elliott> oerjan: and then -- and THEN -- I will write an operating system in the lambda calculus. and it will be efficient, dammit.
04:58:20 <elliott> oerjan: I use inert to mean "not an application"
04:58:25 <elliott> i.e. a lambda or a variable reference
04:58:37 <oerjan> i was going to suggest a MWAHAHA there but i see you already did one
04:58:50 <elliott> oerjan: so if eval x == x, then if it's inert, the final evaluation result is that; otherwise you just infinite-loop forever
04:58:56 <elliott> (if they aren't equal you continue evaluating like normal obviously)
04:59:18 <elliott> oerjan: eval being one step there
05:02:24 <elliott> oerjan: anyway all of this falls down because the lambda calculus is too much of a goddamn lambda-and-application soup to do any decent simplification/optimisation/compilation of :)
05:03:53 <oerjan> i'm thinking about linearity, specifically functions that only use their arguments once. simplifying those is guaranteed to terminate
05:04:04 <oerjan> *once or less, actually
05:04:21 <oerjan> this would at least allow simplifications of things involving i and k
05:04:44 <zzo38> Do you think this is good so far? Any opinion/changes? http://sprunge.us/UZCN
05:05:40 <elliott> zzo38: that license is terrible, it seems incredibly shaky.
05:06:37 <zzo38> elliott: What would you suggest to change it so that it works?
05:07:10 * oerjan generally assumes than one shouldn't try to write a license unless one is a lawyer
05:07:41 <elliott> zzo38: Not using the GPL3 with a linking exception? Just use the LGPL...
05:08:09 <Goosey> Assumptions shouldn't be made in licenses
05:08:14 <Goosey> That's how you get fucked.
05:08:18 <zzo38> elliott: But I only want to allow this kind of linking in certain circumstances!
05:09:14 <pikhq> zzo38: Enter law school, or at least read copyright law.
05:09:28 <zzo38> If I cannot work this exception, I will probably just remove it and have the proper GNU GPL v3 in effect.
05:09:47 <Goosey> 20$ no one will even care about it anyways.
05:09:49 <zzo38> pikhq: If you have done so, can you make any suggestions regarding this license exception?
05:09:50 <Goosey> Thanks, give me my money.
05:10:29 <Goosey> And lol. I was thinking befunge for a second, that's a lot of ends...
05:11:07 <zzo38> pikhq: OK those are some suggestions, but I do not think I will do so. I will just remove the exception and use the GPLv3.
05:11:26 <zzo38> (Unless any better suggestions regarding the exception come)
05:11:39 <pikhq> Or at a minimum, read the GPLv3 and the LGPLv3's additional clause...
05:11:50 <pikhq> Especially the part about additional permissions.
05:11:59 <zzo38> OK I will read that.
05:12:43 <zzo38> Basically what I want, is to allow someone to use a part of a code for another roguelike to build a front-end for Secrets of SoS.
05:12:56 <zzo38> Even if that other code is not GPL'd.
05:13:23 <pikhq> Why, exactly, are you so adamant about it being GPL'd
05:13:29 <elliott> zzo38: what if it's like that except they wrote the code?
05:13:54 <pikhq> LGPL is really truly what you want. You may not realise it, but it is what you want.
05:14:12 <pikhq> (or, of course, a more permissive license)
05:15:30 <zzo38> elliott: It does not matter who wrote the code. I am also OK with it if someone wants to write a front-end but does not like the GPL.
05:15:42 <elliott> zzo38: then you want the LGPL, basically
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05:17:10 <Gregor> Just add a clause "The Software should be used for Good, not Evil." That way, it'll look good, but actually nobody'll be legally allowed to use it at all.
05:17:37 <zzo38> Maybe I will look at LGPL, then. But I am not quite sure that I want *all* additional permissions of the LGPL.
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05:17:58 <zzo38> Gregor: I do not want such a clause. It is not even sensible, nor properly meaningful.
05:18:12 <Gregor> zzo38: No, it isn't, it's totally stupid and horrible :P
05:18:21 <Gregor> zzo38: Douglas Crockford uses it for some software because he's an idiot :P
05:18:49 <pikhq> zzo38: The LGPL offers *an* additional permission, IIRC.
05:19:18 <elliott> Gregor: concur w/ Douglas Crockford being an idiot
05:19:26 <elliott> Gregor: dunno why he's so popular
05:19:40 <elliott> Gregor: his most famous invention is the literals of another language :)
05:19:46 <zzo38> Gregor: I do agree that that "Good, not Evil" clause is stupid and evil, though.
05:21:17 <zzo38> What if I write "This program is licensed by LGPL, but modified versions must be licensed under GPL unless the original author gives you permission to license under LGPL and this version is still licensed under LGPL (but you have a modified version under GPL, you may not relicense it under LGPL under any circumstances)"?
05:21:54 <zzo38> s/and evil/and horrible/
05:21:56 <Gregor> Then that's not the LGPL.
05:22:22 <pikhq> zzo38: "2+2=4 but 2+2≠4" makes as much sense.
05:22:29 <Gregor> I'd recommend something more like licensing it under the GPL disjuncted with a license that allows redistribution in any form but no modification.
05:22:41 <pikhq> I'd recommend LGPL.
05:22:53 <Gregor> pikhq: Well, I mean to accomplish this particular strange goal ;)
05:23:03 <Gregor> I wouldn't actually recommend that :P
05:23:40 <pikhq> Obviously, I'm trying to give sane recommendations, not satisfy zzo38's NIH when it comes to licensing.
05:23:40 <zzo38> Gregor: I suppose that is one way. (I have seen programs, that while not the GPL, do have a license that give explicit permissions separately both for modified and for unmodified versions.)
05:23:47 <zzo38> (In a similar way)
05:24:01 <elliott> zzo38: I think your software does not meet the FSF's definition of Free.
05:24:14 <elliott> Or Debian's, so you can't have your program included in Debian.
05:24:17 <zzo38> pikhq: I understand that; that is OK.
05:24:34 <Gregor> elliott: Sure it does, it's GPL in the worst case.
05:24:46 <zzo38> elliott: I think it does meet the FSF's definition of Free. You may relicense under the GNU GPL v3 and therefore it is properly Free.
05:24:47 <elliott> Gregor: well it shouldn't >:)
05:24:56 <pikhq> It would, however, make Debian very angry at you.
05:25:01 <pikhq> Likewise with Gentoo.
05:25:32 <Gregor> Just make a disjunct license so that the distros can choose to use it under GPL if they please. Trying to make weird compound licenses is a bad idea.
05:25:48 <zzo38> pikhq: Then let Debian change the license to the GNU GPL only if somebody wants to maintain a package of this program for Debian.
05:25:51 <Gregor> Just have it be under the GPL, or some modified version of say BSD that disallows further modification unless you redistribute under exclusively the GPL.
05:26:25 <zzo38> Gregor: That is an idea.
05:26:34 <Gregor> (Note: disjunctive licensing is not a compound license, it is a choice of licenses :P )
05:26:52 <Gregor> This is actually not the worst licensing idea I've ever heard.
05:27:01 <pikhq> LGPL it, please. What you want to do is wrong.
05:27:09 <elliott> Gregor: Why, do you talk to rms on a daily basis?
05:27:15 <pikhq> Much more wrong than parsing HTML with regexps.
05:27:23 <elliott> Gregor: "I've been thinking about requiring people to distribute a copy of the GNU Manifesto with every GPLv4'd program..."
05:27:25 <zzo38> Gregor: I understand at least that much about compound license (I think).
05:27:27 <Gregor> pikhq: Dood, I parse HTML with regexps EVERY DAY
05:27:36 <pikhq> Gregor: May God have mercy on your soul.
05:27:42 <elliott> <pikhq> [bothers Gregor for the next 700 yeras]
05:27:58 <pikhq> elliott: HTML is impossible to parse with regexps. The pain and agony he suffers from it should suffice.
05:28:08 <Goosey> I'm going to dedicate myself to learning 5 of the most esoteric languages
05:28:21 <elliott> Goosey: The 5 best, or the 5 most esoteric?
05:28:33 <zzo38> elliott: If the GNU Manifesto must be distributed with every GPLv4'd program, then just make it part of the license. And then it already says you have to distribute the license and that is good enough. But what about a problem in case it makes the license too long, then?
05:28:40 <pikhq> You must learn Homespring.
05:28:43 <elliott> Goosey: 5 classics: INTERCAL, Underload, Unlambda, Befunge-93, [insert a language].
05:28:58 <pikhq> elliott: Homespring!
05:28:59 <Goosey> I'll add them to the list to try
05:29:09 <Goosey> I'll learn befunge for sure
05:29:10 <elliott> Goosey: 5 most esoteric: Some kind of 2L/1L, Bitwise Cyclic Tag, Homespring, not sure what else.
05:30:18 <elliott> oerjan: now i want to write a self-interpreter in /// :D
05:30:47 <elliott> oerjan: which, ow, just hurts my brain
05:30:56 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Slashes
05:31:40 <oerjan> elliott: you probably want to use Itflabtijtslwi
05:31:59 <elliott> oerjan: i don't see why, your BCT interpreter didn't
05:32:28 <Gregor> Y'know what I don't get? The licenses of jQuery and Mozilla.
05:32:29 <oerjan> well true but then you need to encode the interpreted program into it
05:32:44 <Gregor> Having disjunctive licenses where one is strictly more restrictive than another is nonsense.
05:32:55 <Goosey> Slashes is awesome looking
05:33:10 <elliott> Gregor: jquery is mit/gpl, wtf. but mozilla is mpl/gpl/apache iirc
05:33:15 <elliott> which makes more sense since they're all crazy
05:33:18 <Gregor> elliott: Mozilla is MPL/GPL/LGPL
05:33:27 <elliott> oerjan: just escape everything :P
05:33:28 <Gregor> elliott: It's the GPL/LGPL part that's nonsense.
05:33:52 <oerjan> Goosey: it took several years to find out that /// actually was turing complete
05:35:47 <oerjan> elliott: sure it's just that Itflabtijtslwi is powerful enough to do that initial escaping for you
05:35:58 <elliott> Goosey: well, it's probably the esolang with the simplest semantics. or close.
05:36:03 <zzo38> I think perhaps the GPL v4 should allow you to have a work licensed under the LGPL with the original author / copyright holder allowed to add rules indicating under what conditions you are allowed to keep the LGPL for modified versions; otherwise you must switch to GPL.
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05:36:06 <elliott> and afaik nobody's actually written a program in it to do anything
05:36:27 <zzo38> I also think the GPL v4 should have something that makes it work a bit better for literate programming.
05:36:55 <zzo38> (Literate programming is when the covered work is both a book and a program simultaneously)
05:37:08 <oerjan> Goosey: BCT cannot _do_ much, but it's turing complete and extremely simple to implement in other things
05:37:22 <Goosey> BCT IS TURING COMPLETE?
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05:37:43 <oerjan> yep. that's how i showed /// was, by implementing BCT in it
05:38:06 <pikhq> I think that copyright law should cease to be.
05:38:17 <pikhq> And then GPLv4 will never be.
05:38:58 <zzo38> pikhq: I am OK with that if copyright law ceases, as long as patent law also ceases.
05:39:30 <pikhq> Patent law doesn't need *removed*, it just needs rewritten by non-morons.
05:40:04 <elliott> pikhq: patents are less useful than copyright
05:40:15 <elliott> i don't see any reason to keep them and abolish copyright
05:40:25 <zzo38> I think patent law does need to be removed, regardless of whether or not copyright law is removed.
05:41:00 <pikhq> elliott: Patents still possess some validity in the modern day and age. On physical inventions. Though the length of the patent grant is absurdly long.
05:41:22 <pikhq> Copyright, however, is completely and utterly outmoded by cp(1).
05:42:07 <pikhq> Software, "idea", and genetic patents, though, are worse than worthless.
05:42:13 <pikhq> They genuinely hold back industry.
05:42:33 <elliott> *** note to self http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/ftpdir/reports/2003/YCST/04/YCST-2003-04.pdf lazy specialisation
05:42:35 <zzo38> But trademark is good thing. Patent is bad thing.
05:42:37 <elliott> i need a bookmarking sysstem
05:42:50 <elliott> http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/emphasizing-specialization/ also
05:42:56 <pikhq> zzo38: Trademark is not merely a good thing, but the *laws* on it are mostly good as well!
05:43:00 <elliott> http://thyer.name/phd-thesis/
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05:43:12 <elliott> lazy specialisation is probably The One True Type of Language Implementation
05:43:20 <pikhq> The only problem is that it goes through the court system.
05:43:22 <elliott> "It is demonstrated that a completely lazy evaluator is capable of eliminating towers of interpreters."
05:43:30 <pikhq> And the courts are highly flawed ATM.
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05:45:47 <elliott> http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/emphasizing-specialization/#comment-863 ooh.
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05:49:06 <zzo38> The LGPL is what I want except that I want modified versions only under the GPL.
05:50:04 <zzo38> (That is, no extensions of exceptions.)
05:51:29 <Goosey> dimensifuck looks awesome :D
05:54:00 <pikhq> Goosey: Thank you.
05:54:30 <pikhq> I'm Josiah "pikhq" Worcester.
05:54:53 * Sgeo wonders if Goosey will come across PSOX
05:55:32 <pikhq> Yeah. What can I say, high school was boring.
05:55:59 <Goosey> I can't find any interpreters :(
05:56:01 * Sgeo wonders if Goosey's head will explode when he meets zzo38
05:56:05 <zzo38> Another difference with literate programming is the way header files work (see section 3 of the LGPL).
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05:57:07 <Sgeo> That's a letter o
05:57:35 <Sgeo> Goosey, yeah, not my proudest moment
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05:58:43 <pikhq> A guy with the most awesome case of NIH you'll ever meet.
05:59:13 <Goosey> he's made a bit of stuff
06:00:01 <oerjan> Goosey: seems the dimensifuck implementations are not even on wayback machine yet, though they sometimes take time to make it available
06:00:01 <Sgeo> One of his languages refers to one of my languages </attempt-to-be-relevant>
06:00:23 <oerjan> Goosey: zzo38 is right here too you know :D
06:00:32 <oklopol> oh hey df is actually not completely retarded
06:00:56 <oklopol> pikhq: sorry for always thinking df was bf with an infinite dimensional tape :D
06:01:39 <pikhq> oklopol: Nope, infinite dimensional code space. At least *somewhat* interesting. :)
06:01:43 <oerjan> pikhq: do you have copies of any dimensifuck implementation?
06:01:58 <pikhq> oerjan: I can check.
06:02:11 <Goosey> give me it to me too :P
06:03:10 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/CWiJ Okay, here's a quick Python library that implements it.
06:03:23 <pikhq> Uh, to actually use it...
06:03:45 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/dVaX
06:03:57 <oklopol> you're a fast coder and uploader
06:04:12 <pikhq> oklopol: Copyright © 2006...
06:04:26 <pikhq> And not even my code. :P
06:04:33 <zzo38> Sgeo: Which refers to one of your languages? (Now I forgot)
06:04:46 <Sgeo> GrainFimple refers to BF-RLE
06:05:18 <zzo38> Actually many of the esolangs I wrote refer to other people's esolangs.
06:05:25 <Sgeo> Although BF-RLE is no more a separate language than Ook! is, so
06:05:32 <oerjan> is sprunge.us suitable for linking to from the wiki?
06:05:34 <Sgeo> Just BF-RLE has a purposes besides looking weird
06:05:54 <pikhq> oerjan: Pretty sure they recycle pastes.
06:05:59 <Goosey> shouldn't you just call it ForwardFuck
06:06:13 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes but they should be replaced by different links as soon as possible
06:06:13 <pikhq> I need a web host.
06:06:32 <zzo38> Goosey: If you read the description of Reverse-ReverseFuck, you can see why I shouldn't just call it ForwardFuck.
06:06:50 <Goosey> Yeah, I read it, I just thought that sounded pretty good. :P
06:07:13 <oerjan> anyone here who can upload to the esoarchive?
06:07:40 <Sgeo> I can upload to my DiagonalFish space
06:08:28 <zzo38> Goosey: And (just so you know if you want) I have written many other things too besides esolang
06:08:41 -!- Sgeo has left (?).
06:08:45 -!- Sgeo has joined.
06:08:57 <Sgeo> A web browser, an IRC client
06:09:12 <zzo38> Sgeo: I think the message after PART is not logged in the clog?
06:09:33 <Goosey> zzo38 Cool, I'll be back tomorrow :)
06:09:40 <Sgeo> 22:08:41 --- part: Sgeo left #esoteric
06:09:40 <Sgeo> 22:08:45 --- join: Sgeo (~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net) joined #esoteric
06:09:40 <Sgeo> 22:08:57 <Sgeo> A web browser, an IRC client
06:10:00 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, the "Leaving" part is not logged there.
06:10:23 -!- Sgeo has left (?).
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06:10:38 <oklopol> on the other hand reverse-reversefuck is not something i would call not completely retarded
06:10:51 -!- Sgeo has left (?).
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06:11:07 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes I guess that is one way posting a message viewable anyone by the channel and not appear in the logs.
06:11:10 <oerjan> pikhq: the dimensifuck page also contains a broken link to pikhq.nonlogic.org
06:11:38 <pikhq> oerjan: Yeah, nonlogic has been down for a couple years now.
06:11:54 <Sgeo> How nonlogical
06:12:00 <oklopol> hey i just implemented a language it's called rot13weird and basically it's you write a program and then it's rot13'd and run as wierd code
06:12:08 <zzo38> However, CthulhuIRCd logs exactly what is sent to every client on the channel, with a timestamp. (Hence the rule in SIRCL requiring line-endings to be CRLF even on UNIX)
06:12:35 <oklopol> numbers are rot13'd by adding |N|/2 modulo |N|
06:12:37 <zzo38> It is the requirement of SIRCL that the logs are logged in that way.
06:12:58 <Sgeo> Remind me not to give you my password in SIRCL
06:13:06 <oerjan> oklopol: NUMBERS DON'T WORK THAT WAY
06:13:11 <Sgeo> Or tell you my deep dark evil secrets
06:13:33 <zzo38> SIRCL: Why would you ever do that anyways? There is no need to give me your password in SIRCL.
06:13:36 <oklopol> i have an exam on ERGODIC THEORY tomorrow, i think i know how numbers work.
06:13:51 <Sgeo> zzo38, it was a joke, I was not seriously planning on giving you any password
06:13:52 <oerjan> you cannot add \mathbb{N}/2 to them and expect that to be a bijection
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06:14:05 <oklopol> actually i can expect it to be any kind of jection i want
06:14:11 <oklopol> you just need some math skillz
06:14:23 * oerjan swats oklopol -----###
06:14:40 <zzo38> You do not give someone your password (or secrets) on *any* IRC channel, logged or not!
06:14:43 <Sgeo> Have I ever been swatted?
06:14:53 <zzo38> SIRCL is simply one kind of log format for IRC.
06:15:59 <Sgeo> You mean I shouldn't tell you that when I was younger
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06:16:47 <oerjan> pikhq: that license on that python file looks about as bad as zzo38's attempts, here...
06:17:06 -!- Sgeo has joined.
06:17:15 <pikhq> oerjan: ... What the fuck did I do.
06:17:27 <pikhq> oerjan: I hereby relicense it under the first license in the file.
06:17:37 <pikhq> oerjan: Which is... 3-clause BSD.
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06:18:01 <Sgeo> poiuy_qwert can't be here without me obviously.
06:18:35 <oerjan> pikhq: hm that's compatible with gpl, isn't it? so perhaps that's somehow consistent anyhow
06:18:47 <pikhq> oerjan: It's consistent, yes.
06:18:54 <pikhq> oerjan: But weird.
06:19:43 <zzo38> Do you have any opinion about the file I posted, other than the licensing?
06:20:39 <oerjan> well i'm just putting the sprunge.us links on the wiki for now.
06:23:13 <Sgeo> What's wrong with sprunge.us ?
06:23:32 <pikhq> We're not sure if they're permalinks.
06:24:15 <zzo38> In my opinion, it is OK to use it, but they should be replaced as soon as possible and reasonable to do so.
06:28:08 <Sgeo> Is sprunge.us a zzo38 invention?
06:28:11 <Sgeo> It looks awesome
06:29:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: No, it's just awesome.
06:30:39 <Sgeo> I should probably install cygwin at some poin
06:33:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: I did not invent it but I do like it
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07:03:24 <pikhq> Why, your Norwegianness is showing.
07:03:50 <pikhq> (though that sounds like it could be quite good.)
07:04:51 <oerjan> it's considered christmas food here
07:05:42 <oerjan> of course that might not be considered a convincing argument by most foreigners (see: lutefisk)
07:06:37 <pikhq> Less horrifying than rotten shark, though.
07:07:19 <pikhq> Iceland frightens me.
07:07:37 <pikhq> ... Okay, so does Japan sometimes. Natto. *gag*
07:08:39 <oerjan> i think pickled herring is sort of sushi like, although i wouldn't know because i've never dared to try _real_ sushi
07:09:02 <pikhq> More like what sushi developed out of.
07:10:27 <oerjan> ...i guess you wouldn't want to eat raw untreated fish until your civilization had developed a certain degree of hygiene and refrigeration
07:11:12 <pikhq> Sushi was originally fermented fish (hence the name, "sushi", or "sour"). The fermentation time shortened as preperation techniques made the fermentation less necessary, and it eventually went away.
07:11:38 <pikhq> And rice is involved because it was fermented in rice.
07:11:46 <oerjan> what i've been eating is called "sursild" in norwegian, literally sour herring
07:12:16 <pikhq> Nowadays, the only remnant of that is that the rice has some vinegar in it.
07:12:20 <oerjan> except this is sour because it contains vinegar and stuff, not because it's spoiled in any way
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07:13:22 <oerjan> hm i guess that means the norwegian variant maybe fermented at one time too...
07:14:40 <pikhq> There's very few fermented foods that actually disturb me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natt%C5%8D This.
07:14:56 <oerjan> hm apparently pickling is considered a form of fermentation
07:15:15 <pikhq> Acetic acid is produced via fermentation during pickling.
07:16:37 <augur> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/blog/?p=434
07:18:04 <oerjan> hm it seems salting is also considered pickling.
07:18:33 <augur> pikhq: natto just looks nasty
07:18:49 <augur> like some sort of insect egg mass
07:20:18 <augur> its not even that its fermented
07:20:21 <augur> its just that its slimey
07:20:22 <oerjan> actually the norwegian sursild i think is usually produced by _first_ salting the herring and afterwards changing to a vinegar solution
07:20:25 <augur> thats the nasty part
07:20:40 <augur> fermented soybean /paste/
07:20:54 <augur> well thats different, thats just miso mix and it looks like bean mush
07:21:04 <oerjan> and the just salted herring (spekesild) may also be considered a delicacy on its own
07:22:45 <oerjan> and i read that natto is supposedly healthy and there is a form of vitamin (K something?) that only exists in it...
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07:23:56 <pikhq> oerjan: Doubtful. There's a lot of fermented soybean foods out there.
07:24:13 <pikhq> For instance, miso.
07:24:21 <oerjan> http://www.nattopharma.com/ actually norwegian company
07:24:43 <pikhq> You grind the soybeans and mix it with a few other things *before* fermenting to get miso.
07:24:49 <pikhq> And it makes a delicious broth.
07:25:09 <pikhq> Well, combined with dashi.
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07:34:34 <Gregor> pikhq: Is miso soup just miso and water?
07:34:46 <Gregor> Err, I mean just the broth :P
07:34:51 <Gregor> Obviously there are solids in there too :P
07:34:57 <pikhq> Gregor: It's miso and dashi.
07:35:08 <Gregor> Oh, you even said that. Huzzah!
07:35:26 <augur> "just miso and water" is kind of .. non-trivial
07:35:33 <augur> since miso is not "just" any one thing
07:35:56 <augur> thats like asking if ramen is "just" ramen powder, noodles, and water
07:36:03 <augur> or if cake is "just" cake batter thats been baked
07:36:32 <pikhq> Or if cake is "just" flour and water.
07:36:33 <Gregor> augur: Congratulations, you've declared that "just" shall never be used.
07:36:38 <pikhq> (what with the claim being wrong. :P)
07:36:55 <augur> it can be, but the issue is that its vacuous here
07:37:28 <pikhq> Though that *is* the recipe for hardtack.
07:37:30 <Gregor> augur: What with mud being /just/ a complex assortment of organic and inorganic molecules some of which are dissolved into and others of which are suspended in water.
07:38:11 <augur> sure, its just miso and water, but miso is everything in the soup that isnt water, basically. dashi is just a kelp-and-tuna broth
07:38:24 <augur> Gregor: thats my point tho, right
07:38:36 <augur> pikhq: wikipedia disagrees.
07:38:45 <pikhq> augur: There's more to typical miso soup than just the miso paste.
07:38:57 <augur> yeah, theres also dashi, ok.
07:39:10 <augur> but like i said, dashi is kelp and tuna broth
07:39:13 <Sgeo> Could you please fight over something CSey instead? At least I have some chance of comprehending
07:39:15 <augur> ok maybe you throw in so tofu too
07:39:20 <Sgeo> Even if not much
07:39:27 <augur> Sgeo: hey, i tried to bring up Reader monads
07:39:30 <pikhq> You can throw in a variety of ingredients.
07:39:32 <augur> dont blame me if it aint there
07:40:24 <pikhq> The miso paste is just the characteristic ingredient of miso soup. :)
07:41:00 <augur> miso and dashi are really all you need for miso soup
07:41:18 <Gregor> Y'know what people? Curry chicken is JUST chicken and curry powder. SUCK IT.
07:41:36 <pikhq> By that same notion water and flour are really all you need for bread.
07:41:48 <augur> pikhq: depends on the kind of bread.
07:41:57 <Gregor> augur: Depends on the kind of curry chicken :P
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07:42:18 <augur> Gregor: no, it doesnt. curry chicken needs at least some sort of liquid.
07:42:22 <Gregor> Maybe my curry chicken is just chicken patted down with curry powder.
07:42:36 <pikhq> Water and flour suffices for getting something that counts as bread, just like miso and dashi suffices for getting something that counts as miso soup.
07:42:42 <augur> Gregor: then thats not curry chicken.
07:42:47 <pikhq> augur: Curry chicken ≠ chicken curry.
07:43:00 <augur> yes, it does = chicken curry
07:43:06 <pikhq> augur: Curry chicken is chicken with a curry flavor, not a curry made with chicken.
07:43:13 <Gregor> augur: Also, if that's not curry chicken, then flour+water is definitely not bread.
07:43:21 <augur> i know because im a linguist!
07:43:42 <Gregor> "Stand back! I'm a LINGUIST!"
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07:43:53 <augur> Gregor: nope sorry. lots of breads are made from just flour and water
07:43:57 <pikhq> Linguistics has little to do with cuisine.
07:43:58 <augur> and this is recognized as being a kind of bread
07:44:03 <Gregor> My father is a linguist (in the has-a-linguistics-degree sense). The most important lesson he ever taught me is not to be a linguist.
07:44:09 <pikhq> augur: Uh, *just* flour and water?
07:44:15 <augur> but coating chicken with curry powder is not recognized by anyone except you as curry chicken
07:44:20 <pikhq> augur: The only such bread I know of is hardtack.
07:44:41 <pikhq> When you do that, you get insanely hard bread.
07:44:49 <augur> lots of unleavened bread is like this
07:44:51 <augur> usually you fry it.
07:45:07 <augur> indian bread is often just water and flour
07:45:30 <augur> thats not to say it doesnt get /better/ with some other stuff
07:45:59 <pikhq> Figured they'd have something to make it not so hard in there.
07:46:18 <augur> you gotta cook it right
07:46:18 <pikhq> Perhaps it's just more water in the mix, so they get a bit more steam leavening.
07:46:52 <augur> and the tandoori. exposing it to fire does different things that normal ovens
07:47:34 <augur> thus we've proven that linguistics DOES have something to do with cuisine
07:47:40 <pikhq> Anyways, I'm pretty sure that curry chicken is curry-adj. chicken-noun.
07:47:56 <pikhq> Because this is Not. Fucking. French.
07:48:06 <pikhq> (in spite of what fixed phrases would tell you)
07:48:16 <augur> its a noun-noun compound
07:48:35 <augur> but even so, that doesnt change anything
07:48:37 <pikhq> The ordering of which, I'm fairly certain, matters.
07:49:04 <augur> a Brown Cow is a rootbeer float made with chocolate icecream
07:49:08 <augur> its still adj-noun
07:49:14 <augur> non-compositionality, bitches
07:49:40 <pikhq> It's still parsing as chicken which is curry, not curry with chicken.
07:49:59 <augur> chicken that-is-curried means cooked in curry
07:50:10 <pikhq> ... That is, chicken with a curry flavor.
07:50:25 <augur> not the most people.
07:50:44 <augur> pikhq: where are you again?
07:50:51 * Gregor continues to read but not participate in this conversation while munching on curry potato chips.
07:51:05 <pikhq> Gregor: Which are clearly not curry made with potato chips.
07:51:06 <augur> go to an indian restaurant with lots of white people
07:51:20 <Gregor> pikhq: That would be pretty gross!
07:51:21 <augur> ask them if curry chicken can be just chicken coated with curry then fried
07:51:27 <augur> bet you the answer will be no.
07:51:52 <Gregor> augur: That's conflating meaning with preferences.
07:52:10 <augur> "curry chicken" is simply non-compositional
07:52:14 <Gregor> augur: If you ask them that, they'll say no because it offends their sensibilities, not because it wouldn't be classified as "curry chicken"
07:52:16 <augur> it means the same thing as chicken curry
07:52:34 <augur> because you're asserting it.
07:52:41 <augur> you think you're right, show me.
07:52:42 <Gregor> I really couldn't care less what your opinion is, or really about this conversation at all *shrugs*
07:52:42 <oklopol> "<Gregor> My father is a linguist (in the has-a-linguistics-degree sense). The most important lesson he ever taught me is not to be a linguist." <<< same with my father and philosophy
07:53:04 <augur> your fathers are lame.
07:53:09 <augur> Gregor, your dads a linguist, huh
07:53:41 <Gregor> "in the has-a-linguistics-degree sense"
07:53:41 <Sgeo> C++/CLI has a USE?
07:53:52 <Gregor> His masters in linguistics does little good to his accounting job.
07:54:01 <augur> so hes not a linguist
07:54:05 <Sgeo> On Reddit, people are talking about tying together managed and unmanaged code
07:54:06 <augur> hes an accountant who couldnt hack linguistics
07:54:08 <Gregor> Hence the parenthetical.
07:54:12 <Sgeo> I. want. to. die.
07:54:16 <Gregor> He has a degree, he hacked it that much.
07:54:22 <Gregor> He couldn't hack a job in it :P
07:55:19 <Gregor> AFAIK he got a linguistics degree because linguistics interested him but with no real ambition, then he went "wait I don't actually want to be a professor" and (after getting a masters in a field he couldn't use) became an accountant.
07:55:36 <augur> right, but what did he do when he was getting his degree
07:55:45 <Gregor> I have no idea, you'd have to ask him *shrugs*
07:55:57 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/eco8t/when_programming_ccli_this_is_all_that_keeps_me/c174b92
07:56:52 * oerjan euthanizes Sgeo with the saucepan ===\__/
07:56:55 <oklopol> he thought being an accountant would be more fun than being a professor?
07:57:20 <Gregor> oklopol: Again, you'd have to ask him :P
07:57:45 <oklopol> i'll just assume he is insane
07:58:05 <oklopol> no other explanation exists
07:58:12 <Gregor> But it fits well with my backstory if I ever want to be a Jewish comedian.
07:59:01 <Gregor> I'm part-Ashkenazi, and nobody cares whether you're religiously Jewish for you to be a Jewish comedian anyway :P
07:59:20 <augur> is it possible to both be religiously Jewish and a Jewish comedian?
07:59:25 <oklopol> i thought jews are like the OPPOSITE of nazis
07:59:27 <Gregor> All I have to do is stand in profile (and maybe hide my hyper-anglo hair) and anybody will be convinced I'm Jewish :P
07:59:33 <augur> i thought ardent atheism was a prerequisite for being a jewish comedian
07:59:39 <Gregor> augur: Mmmmm ... yeah, I think so.
07:59:46 <augur> Gregor: PROFILE PICS NAO
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08:00:12 <Gregor> I don't think I have one, but I think I have a picture sufficiently revealing of the relevant characteristic.
08:00:13 <oklopol> or is that like a pun, ask-a-nazi
08:00:21 <Gregor> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30473177&l=32c78c515d&id=1055580469
08:00:26 <oklopol> maybe you can use that in your act
08:00:30 <Gregor> oklopol: Ashkenazi is a race.
08:00:47 <Gregor> This is why people just say they're Jewish :P
08:01:03 <augur> nah, you could be german-hungarian too
08:01:17 <augur> you look a bit like one of my relatives who's german-hungarian
08:01:44 <pikhq> augur: Most Ashkenazis would have such traits...
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08:01:53 <augur> pikhq: wouldnt doubt it.
08:02:15 <pikhq> What with spreading from Germany to Eastern Europe.
08:02:19 <pikhq> Including Hungary.
08:02:26 <Gregor> Yeah, I was about to say that German-Hungarian could very well be Ashkenazi :P
08:02:56 <oklopol> Gregor: you don't really resemble anything i've ever seen, ever
08:03:10 <Gregor> Anywho, it's all very silly, really I wouldn't care one lick about racial heritage except that the Jewish side of my family does X-D
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08:03:54 <pikhq> oklopol: Ashkenazi
08:04:40 <oklopol> i've been to britland, but i don't know where ashkenazistan is
08:04:56 <pikhq> They moved it to Israel.
08:05:04 <Gregor> I'm actually of surprisingly few heritages for a person whose family on both sides has been in the US for more than a century.
08:05:14 <oklopol> i don't really believe you can say anything about a person's race just from looking at their face
08:05:43 <Gregor> oklopol: "I suspect by the color of that person's skin that they're of a European or Slavic race."
08:05:59 <Gregor> Races are defined by physical characteristic, deal with it *shrugs*
08:06:00 <pikhq> And I'm of surprisingly specifically-general heritage set.
08:06:02 <oklopol> because it's very hard to ignore
08:06:06 <pikhq> Just about every Germanic heritage.]
08:06:24 <oklopol> ...which i still don't believe proves anything
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08:08:00 <oklopol> "<Gregor> Races are defined by physical characteristic, deal with it *shrugs*" <<< i just don't believe humans have the ability to infer things from these characteristics, because i'm not good at it myself
08:08:23 <oklopol> if i'm not good at it, the world should stop talking about it
08:08:30 <Gregor> Some people are, otherwise you just get stereotypes that happen to be true sometimes :P
08:08:42 <pikhq> And this is why the world should stop talking about physical activities.
08:09:04 <Gregor> We should transcend beyond these physical shackles of bodies and exist as beings of pure energy.
08:09:08 <oklopol> well i'm not particularly bad at those i guess, but they are rather uninteresting
08:09:37 <oklopol> when's the first mass suicide meeting of #esoteric
08:11:13 <Gregor> The rest of us are IRCing from the Next Level.
08:11:43 <oerjan> and somewhere, a bunch of pure energy beings are saying, "fuck this boring mental enlightenment stuff, let's make ourselves some bodies!"
08:12:40 <Gregor> "Hey, you, other energy being in this endless void ... wanna fuck?" "I can't. I have no body." "... shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit."
08:13:14 <oklopol> can't you like mindfuck each other
08:13:35 <oklopol> also you could look at humans have sex and mentalbate
08:13:56 <Gregor> Sorta not the same though, innit X-P
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08:24:01 <Sgeo> Why am I a pope?
08:27:52 <oerjan> how should i know, Mr. Ratzinger?
08:33:29 <augur> Sgeo: because some cardinals got together in a room and voted.
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09:00:48 <Sgeo> That was the most useless Windows Update...
09:01:09 <Sgeo> Malware Removal thingy (not that useless I guess) and Live updates
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09:32:31 <oklopol> i can't really see outside
09:32:47 <oklopol> wait actually i can see that there's snow even through the curtains
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09:43:52 <augur> oklopol: http://www.wellnowwhat.net/blog/?p=434
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10:01:30 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, oerjan, ah, but you both live in the frigid northlands.
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10:02:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Meanwhile I live in Edinburgh, which has the most boring climate in Britain.
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10:04:05 <oerjan> CLEARLY THE WEATHER TOOK YOUR COMMENT AS A CHALLENGE
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10:04:20 <oerjan> EXPECT YOUR ROOF TO CAVE IN SOON
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10:09:33 <oerjan> there it is again, that strange desire to quote shakespeare
10:19:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, very cold?
10:19:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, turn on the radiators then?
10:19:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, any fireplace?
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11:16:54 <Phantom_Hoover> The standard Minecraft textures for glass are terrible and I want better ones!
11:18:07 -!- yorick has left (?).
11:33:53 <oklopol> are they too decadent and capitalist
11:35:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a stand in what sense?
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11:36:09 <oerjan> a concession stand, obviously
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12:13:47 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, no, they have some pixels stuck in the middle that completely ruins the view.
12:14:12 <oklopol> you'd like it to be invisible?
12:15:35 <Phantom_Hoover> The current texture is particularly jarring as I have a room with 3 walls and the floor made entirely of glass, and it just looks messy by default.
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12:20:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: That Painterly texpack has quite a few glass alternatives: http://painterlypack.net/materials.html
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12:52:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm going to assume that Fine Structure either isn't finished or that it ends rather abruptly.
13:03:49 <oerjan> putty apparently allows choosing only _one_ font name globally, which means it is impossible to support even all the characters i _do_ have some font for
13:05:04 <oerjan> hangul, chinese and japanese seem to only be available in separate fonts, say
13:05:36 <oerjan> *support simultaneously
13:06:20 <oerjan> well i guess it might be a mess to support when it wants characters to be the same fixed size, anyway
13:07:08 <oerjan> oh and that kannada thing from yesterday i have no monospace font for, so putty cannot show it at all.
13:25:41 * Phantom_Hoover tries to work out what the hell was going on in the last chapter.
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14:46:17 <elliott> 22:05:32 <oerjan> is sprunge.us suitable for linking to from the wiki?
14:46:22 <elliott> 22:05:54 <pikhq> oerjan: Pretty sure they recycle pastes.
14:47:30 <elliott> 22:12:08 <zzo38> However, CthulhuIRCd logs exactly what is sent to every client on the channel, with a timestamp. (Hence the rule in SIRCL requiring line-endings to be CRLF even on UNIX)
14:47:36 <elliott> 22:12:37 <zzo38> It is the requirement of SIRCL that the logs are logged in that way.
14:47:37 <elliott> 22:12:58 <Sgeo> Remind me not to give you my password in SIRCL
14:48:10 <elliott> 22:15:59 <Sgeo> You mean I shouldn't tell you that when I was younger
14:48:11 <elliott> 22:16:01 --- quit: Sgeo (Quit: Leaving)
14:49:12 <elliott> 23:05:42 <oerjan> of course that might not be considered a convincing argument by most foreigners (see: lutefisk)
14:49:16 <elliott> oerjan: don't say that word!
14:49:57 <oerjan> lutefisk lutefisk lutefisk
14:50:50 <elliott> oerjan: you horrible person
14:53:04 * oerjan _likes_ lutefisk (http://www.airshipentertainment.com/mythcomic.php?date=20100928)
14:53:48 <elliott> haha, i was about to chastise cpressey for linking directly to his homepage on his userpage without using the template, but he DID use the template
14:54:51 <elliott> oerjan: no you don't, you've just gone into shock every time you've eaten it
14:54:59 <elliott> and your body has made you think you like it as a self-defence mechanism
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14:58:32 * oerjan recommends reading the menu in that comic
14:59:06 <elliott> oh wait didn't notice pikhq was online
15:02:36 <elliott> oerjan: it would be very easy to implement slashes in a language like slashes but with regexps :D
15:07:09 <elliott> "My son (5) tried to pinch-zoom a photo on my wife's laptop. She explained scrollbars and + and - buttons. He left." --seen randomly on twitter
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15:30:55 * elliott designs the only font less than a pixel wide!
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15:31:36 <oerjan> this font would be the standard output format for Turkey Bomb, i assume
15:33:13 <elliott> oerjan: (it's actually 2 wide by 3 high, it's just that you can pack 3 subpixels (uglily) into one pixel on an LCD)
15:33:29 <elliott> oerjan: so each character takes up 2/3 of a pixel... of course you'll want at least one bit of space, so a character+space takes up 3 pixel
15:33:43 <elliott> oerjan: if you want 2 spaces, that's even more fun because the alignment of the pixels changes each character
15:33:59 <elliott> see http://distractionware.com/blog/?p=193 :P
15:34:08 <elliott> but that's 3-wide and 5-high
15:34:15 <elliott> (when expanded from subpixels to pixels)
15:34:37 * Phantom_Hoover realises suddenly that he didn't read most of "Last Ergs" and hence was utterly confused for the last chapter.
15:35:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ha ha! (No spoilers I haven't read nearly that far.)
15:36:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Now you get to read http://qntm.org/ed.
15:36:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, it's not as if I could have clicked accidentally or anything, or skipped over it, and I read the first subsection.
15:37:21 * oerjan swats elliott for rickrolling him -----###
15:37:31 <oerjan> just for the principle of it
15:38:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You were abducted during that time.
15:40:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just don't.
15:40:33 <elliott> I really want to enjoy what I have left to read of it.
15:41:45 <elliott> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11837939
15:41:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I reached the end of The Story So Far. My reading has taken... a hiatus.
15:43:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In this case it's not *overly* insane since it'd only apply to social networky things. But yes, the claim should be denied.
15:43:41 <elliott> Trademark law is the sanest and probably the only justifiable such law. :p
15:44:16 <coppro> elliott: patent law makes 100% sense in some sectors
15:44:25 <coppro> it's overstepped its bounds though
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15:45:42 <elliott> coppro: you know we disagree, so why bother presenting your opposing opinion, which i already know, as fact?
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15:45:57 <coppro> elliott: because the economic analysis
15:46:29 <elliott> coppro: also note that i said "probably" the only, not "the only".
15:46:47 <elliott> and you know fine well simply saying "No, you're wrong, [my opinion again]!" won't do a single thing, so why take the effort?
15:47:37 <coppro> because I know more about microeconomics now
15:50:23 <elliott> coppro: but you're still not presenting me with anything new and it's moer irritating than anything else
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15:51:37 <coppro> I also just enjoy pissing you off
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15:59:27 <elliott> coppro: ah, the good old hate-hate relationship
16:03:03 <ais523> hmm, the adverts for Windows Phone 7 are actually really good
16:03:14 <ais523> it doesn't really tempt me to want to buy a smartphone, though, especially not one running Microsoft software
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16:03:48 <ais523> hmm, anyone here who uses Windows? What should I do on a system whose anti-virus software needs upgrading, but where Firefox seems incapable of downloading executables from the Internet?
16:04:11 <ais523> (as in, first try with any file, it aborts, second try, the progress bar goes up to 100% and it reports the download as having worked, but the file isn't saved anywhere?)
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16:12:39 <elliott> <ais523> hmm, the adverts for Windows Phone 7 are actually really good
16:12:56 <elliott> the one i saw was social networking-oriented, and I doubt *that* is your thing
16:13:04 <elliott> <ais523> hmm, anyone here who uses Windows? What should I do on a system whose anti-virus software needs upgrading, but where Firefox seems incapable of downloading executables from the Internet?
16:14:00 <ais523> carefully aiming IE only at sites knowng to be correct
16:14:15 <elliott> ais523: you do realise that modern IE isn't really insecure?
16:14:32 <elliott> ais523: you'd have to try fairly hard to get infected with it, especially if you have any antivirus (even an old one)
16:14:49 <ais523> yep, it's just that it's hard enough to teach people "never use IE"
16:14:56 <elliott> ais523: what AV is it, anyway?
16:14:57 <ais523> I'm more concerned about why Firefox is failing to download executables
16:15:05 <ais523> and AVG, up-to-date virus database, but not engine
16:15:13 <ais523> and the engine's almost going to not get new databases, it's so old
16:15:27 <ais523> I'm entirely willing to install a different one, though, given how annoying AVG's been getting
16:15:49 <elliott> ais523: I've heard good things about avast!, but I seem to recall its sound-effects when it finds a virus are pretty scary :)
16:16:06 <elliott> ais523: NOD32 is the best antivirus by far but it's only a trial and after that you either have to infringe on copyright or pay, so yeah.
16:16:36 <elliott> ais523: oh, there's also been a lot of good things said about http://www.cloudantivirus.com/en/ and it may well be good apart from cashing in on the "cloud" terminology
16:16:45 <elliott> apparently it's very out-of-the-way
16:17:05 * elliott watches their video, gets rapidly irritated
16:17:19 <ais523> I was wondering about just MSE, on the basis that it's less irritating than many of the others
16:17:26 <ais523> do you know of a strong reason not to use it?
16:17:55 <elliott> ais523: when I last used MSE it wasn't being hyped up yet, just sort of a first release
16:17:59 <elliott> it's probably decent enough, yes
16:18:18 <elliott> ais523: why are you using windows, btw?
16:18:20 <ais523> it's never really been hyped up, but I can't find people with bad things to say about it, which is very out-of-character for Microsoft software
16:18:25 <ais523> and I'm not, this is someone else's computer
16:19:02 <ais523> and they're panicking due to the virus database updates going to stop soon, and no obvious way to update the AV
16:20:02 <elliott> ok, panda cloud antivirus's advert tries to describe how it works; obviously simplified, but the simplified version is, at least, *really* stupid
16:20:16 <elliott> ("it learns about viruses from your web browsing in the GLOBAL INTERNET COMMUNITY! no need for a virus lab!")
16:21:57 <elliott> ais523: ok, round about now you have to stop me doing what i'm doing
16:25:14 <elliott> oerjan: i should never have entered this rabbit hole
16:26:26 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, is AVG the one noted for confusing the Windows system files for viruses?
16:28:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: dunno; it's noted for being so mediocre it's bad in my book
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16:30:57 <elliott> hmm, seems like there might actually be decent experimental evidence for precognition; oh joy, look at that worldview go
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16:32:08 <oerjan> um is that about those recent Bem experiments (which i thought were pretty swiftly discredited)
16:33:45 <oerjan> basically Bem doesn't seem to understand/care that you have to form the hypothesis to test _before_ doing the actual experiment to test it
16:34:04 <elliott> oerjan: ah, it is; the article is too old to mention that it was discredited
16:34:49 <elliott> oerjan: I still think retropsychokinesis is pretty likely (although probably not p>=0.5) due to the results of http://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/
16:36:00 * elliott checks the updates to see if he did find it to be statistically significant after all
16:37:15 <elliott> "For example, a recent article by James Spottiswoode in the Journal of Scientific Exploration suggests that anomalous cognition events occur with an enhanced probability at times close to 13:30 hours Local Sidereal Time."
16:37:53 <oerjan> i saw that mentioned in the recent reddit threads about Bem's experiment
16:38:35 <elliott> oerjan: that quote, or the retropsychokinesis project?
16:38:57 <oerjan> the sidereal time connection
16:38:59 <elliott> i don't really believe at all in non-retropsychokinetic precognition, since it's really that causality doesn't seem so solid to me :)
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16:45:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no, the results of the project in total
16:46:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: see the link
16:47:24 <elliott> fourmilab is an awesome site btw, john walker of autocad fame
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16:54:50 <elliott> Vorpal: you were right, ElliottOS just got redesigned
16:55:33 <Vorpal> elliott, redesigned how? (just major points, I don't have time for half an hour of discussion)
16:55:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: guess what just became even further away from completion? :P
16:56:03 <elliott> Vorpal: well, really it was more like I was holding two separate design paths for an OS in my head, and I'd selected a Lispy, impure one as ElliottOS because the other one sounded like A Scary Pain.
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16:56:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Now I'm reading the Synthesis paper, thought "hmm, yeah, specialisation could actually work", read up on the Futamura projections, read up on lazy specialisation, and then read (I've seen it before, but re-read) how lazy specialisation lets you implement pure Functional Reactive Programming without the infamous space leak
16:57:02 <elliott> and now suddenly the OS is purely functional, specialiser-based, and sits on FRP.
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16:58:45 <elliott> Vorpal: The Holy Grail. The IO monad, although it sits in a pure language, is impure; it has effects, and state; IO operations are not composable units obeying mathematical laws like pure, denotational functions are.
16:59:13 <elliott> Vorpal: Functional reactive programming drags the rest of the universe into the opalescent pool of purity.
16:59:19 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_reactive_programming
16:59:33 <elliott> Vorpal: It's pretty similar to event-based systems, except easier to use, and purely functional.
16:59:34 <Vorpal> sounds impressive. *bookmarks for future reading*
16:59:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, the reading is mostly papers, and a lot of them have ideas that their authors now consider seriously out of date :-)
17:00:02 <elliott> Vorpal: http://conal.net/blog/ and http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/ are worth reading for "the latest thing", most likely.
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17:02:20 <elliott> Vorpal: basically "there are implementations of FRP that work, but they're not *general* to all uses of FRP; general implementations tend to have serious problems like space leaks. It is not clear why it is easy to implement one use of FRP, but difficult to implement it in general." -- so obviously the reading material is a bit tangled
17:02:51 <elliott> Vorpal: sort of like physics; there are plenty of theories that work in their domain -- quantum mechanics, relativity -- but for some reason it's very hard to make something that puts it all together
17:03:23 <elliott> Vorpal: but, guess what, lazy specialisation seems to actually solve the problem and allow a very simple, general FRP implementation without space leaks. :) Of course, the problem is implementing the lazy specialiser.
17:03:25 -!- yorick has joined.
17:03:54 <elliott> the last section of http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/emphasizing-specialization/ shows specialisation making FRP work
17:04:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I really don't have time to read lot of stuff atm
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17:05:44 <elliott> Oh, and http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/emphasizing-specialization/#comment-863 is especially interesting; augustss doing specialisation for work in Actual Practice, specialising to LLVM
17:06:22 <elliott> Of course a useful specialiser-based system requires runtime code generation, and it just so happens that it all neatly fits together if you do it as an OS :)
17:10:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Says Mr. Lisp86.
17:10:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Complicated.
17:11:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A specialiser is a piece of code in language A that takes a function written in language B, and a value written in language B, and outputs a program in language C that acts like the function written in language B, except with one less argument.
17:11:33 <elliott> You could say that it compiles (f x), but in fact it *rewrites* f's code so that all mentions of x are eliminated, replaced with the argument, and then the resulting program is simplified and optimised.
17:11:39 <elliott> Lazy specialisation is that, except lazy.
17:11:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: This is a lovely, accessible introduction to specialisers, and why they're so awesome: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/05/three-projections-of-doctor-futamura.html
17:12:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Read it. Read it now. :p
17:12:18 <elliott> Of course you can set A=B=C if you want and all that.
17:12:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You and everyone else.
17:14:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and all of this is proof that the esoteric will inherit the earth; if you squint a bit, running specialisers on themselves is an awful lot like writing a quine.
17:15:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Those fools in the practical computing world laughed at us! But we shall show them all!
17:16:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes! Now keep reading.
17:20:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No! Keep reading! YOU MUST
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17:21:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And now *lazy* specialisation: http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/emphasizing-specialization/
17:22:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: By the way, PyPy, the Python implementation in Python, strays very close to specialisation; they automatically generate their JIT from their interpreter.
17:22:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In fact, they have code that transforms any interpreter written in their restricted variant of Python, RPython, into a JIT, IIRC.
17:22:58 <elliott> And the JITs perform well.
17:23:12 <elliott> [[The interpreter implements the full Python language in a restricted subset, called RPython (Restricted Python). Unlike standard Python, RPython is statically typed, to allow efficient compilation.[2]
17:23:13 <elliott> The translator is a tool chain that analyzes RPython code and translates it to a lower-level language, such as C, Java bytecode or Common Intermediate Language. It also allows for pluggable Garbage collectors as well as optionally enabling Stackless. Finally it includes a JIT generator which builds a just-in-time compiler into the interpreter, given a few annotations in the interpreter source code. The generated JIT compiler is a tracing JIT[3].]]
17:23:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ? See above.
17:23:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So, basically, the PyPy people decided not to bother writing a fast Python compiler of any sort.
17:24:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They just decided to define a restricted variant of Python, RPython, write a translator from RPython to (various low-level languages), and then write a translator from a lightly-annotated interpreter of a language written in RPython, to a JIT compiler for that language.
17:24:51 <elliott> And then they implemented a Python interpreter in RPython, and applied the JIT-maker to it.
17:24:59 <elliott> Very, very close to specialisation.
17:25:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, read http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/emphasizing-specialization/ and you'll NEVER WRITE A COMPILER AGAIN EVER even if you never have.
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17:28:49 <Goosey> Oh well, I'm trying to devise an insane esolang.
17:28:57 <Goosey> something based off of brainfuck
17:29:14 <Goosey> maybe each element is actually a stack :P
17:29:19 <Goosey> but I want it to be useful
17:29:28 <Goosey> without making it easier
17:29:39 <elliott> Goosey: Protip: "brainfuck derivative" and "useful", as two goals, produce 99% of the stuff on the wiki.
17:29:45 <elliott> The wiki is a ... deluge of mostly uninteresting languages.
17:29:51 <elliott> I suggest relaxing one of the goals :P
17:30:06 <Goosey> Thought that might be the case :P
17:30:32 <elliott> Goosey: I suggest relaxing the "useful" goal, who needs that :)
17:31:46 <Goosey> I want to make the pointers be able to move based on what's in the current element
17:31:55 <Goosey> phantom, they already have that :/
17:32:14 <elliott> he probably means mathematica
17:32:44 <Phantom_Hoover> It would have the GUT embedded in it, and stuff would be interpreted by operating on that within a wider context.
17:33:01 <Goosey> It's not as extended as I guess you want :/
17:33:11 <elliott> Goosey: what were you thinking of, though?
17:33:41 <elliott> Seems to be field-theory oriented.
17:33:50 <Goosey> I guess you odnt want scilab then xD
17:34:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Field theory is proper mathematics. Look at all of the Greek letters!
17:34:31 <Goosey> Also I have this mathomatic thing
17:34:38 <Goosey> calculates polynomials and other stuff
17:34:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/pj.html, http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/GT.html
17:34:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: most of the proofs in the former are generated with Maple programs, the entire latter book was generated with a Maple program searching for geometric proofs (source is available)
17:34:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Fun fact: the ratio of Latin to other symbols determines how proper a given piece of mathematics is.
17:34:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: not quite what you want, but COOL.
17:36:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but don't let that bother you; those two pages are really awesome.
17:36:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Shalosh B. Ekhad" is what he calls the author of his program-written stuff.
17:37:32 <Phantom_Hoover> It can't on some levels, since it hates general recursion.
17:37:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it can.
17:37:59 <elliott> I am not sure what you think general recursion has to do with it.
17:38:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A model of ZFC comes with Coq.
17:38:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://coq.inria.fr/V8.2pl1/contribs/ZFC.html
17:38:31 <Phantom_Hoover> It was a munged thought squeezed through my brain into unrecognisability.
17:39:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Axioms is probably a good place.
17:39:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just click a random file, then click on its includes until you get to a file without includes.
17:39:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In this case, that's http://coq.inria.fr/V8.2pl1/contribs/ZFC.Sets.html.
17:41:29 <elliott> Theorem tout_vide_est_Vide :
17:41:48 <Phantom_Hoover> As well as the weirdness of seeing normal functions defined using it
17:45:30 * Phantom_Hoover decides to reduce his confusion with ProofGeneral steppery.
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18:00:45 <zzo38> Do you have any question/opinion about that manual page? Or, what is it?
18:01:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I've invented a vaguely horrible thing.
18:01:46 <zzo38> elliott: What did you invent?
18:01:51 <zzo38> And how vague is it?
18:02:05 <elliott> zzo38: Meansort and mediansort, and it's not vague at all, just vaguely horrible.
18:02:28 <zzo38> That is what I meant, how vague is it horrible?
18:02:37 <zzo38> And can you show what you have?
18:04:08 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/fJJC Replace the calls with mean with calls to median to get another kind of sort.
18:04:13 <elliott> mediansort is probably faster.
18:04:17 <elliott> In fact it is, objectively.
18:05:30 <elliott> ha! it doesn't sort properly
18:05:31 <Deewiant> Median doesn't compute the median
18:05:58 <elliott> Deewiant: in fact median is completely unworkable in this case since it requires sorting the list to do it simply :D
18:06:07 <elliott> ok let's pretend median isn't there
18:06:27 <elliott> 65150, 87, 6319, 15206, 26202, 52131, 17404, 59691, 54273, 61926, 63389, 3098, 6615, 25222, 60300, 1027, 26110, 33019, 51582, 62569, 13940, 24634, 51787, 54117, 55077,
18:06:34 <elliott> return msort(a) + msort(b)
18:06:56 <elliott> recursing msort() around that breaks python's recursion limit :)
18:07:17 <elliott> ok raising that limit is not a good idea
18:07:37 <zzo38> It does not seem the best kind of sorting algorithm, there are a few problems with its ways.
18:07:46 <elliott> Deewiant: C implementations welcome :p
18:08:28 <Deewiant> Are those the only two options?
18:08:33 <zzo38> Yes, I think in C it could be done better, but it is still unsure if it is better than anything else and if so in what ways, what data?
18:08:41 <elliott> Deewiant: no, you can do it in haskell too.
18:09:07 <elliott> wait i had an infinite loop
18:09:13 <zzo38> Like, you can make the C program to calculate the mean while partitioning.
18:09:17 <elliott> i think i give up on this thing :)
18:09:29 <zzo38> (Or just the sum; the mean is not needed.)
18:11:11 <zzo38> But the code looks like it will work badly if the length of the list is not a power of two.
18:12:58 <zzo38> But I cannot know for sure.
18:19:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I just remembered that you asked me to remind you of something
18:20:03 <Vorpal> (been too busy to remember it before)
18:20:27 <Vorpal> elliott, "mine from torch marked cave" iirc
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18:29:20 <zzo38> I removed the license exception now, and made a few other changes. http://sprunge.us/fHTJ
18:30:48 <zzo38> I would also like you to tell me if you think there is anything wrong with the ANSI emulation in the anstomzm.w program.
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18:36:34 <zzo38> Therefore, it must be a different timezone, I think!!
18:38:43 <elliott> but he is on a 25 hour day
18:39:52 <zzo38> Why is 25 hours? Does it have anything to do with daylight saving time?
18:40:19 <Deewiant> elliott: If you want a Haskell version of your non-working sort http://sprunge.us/ggef
18:40:43 <elliott> zzo38: No, it's oerjan's fucked up sleep schedule
18:40:59 <elliott> Deewiant: I think you win the Most Involved Way of Implementing a Broken Sort Algorithm of the Year.
18:41:34 <zzo38> elliott: And you can win the Broken Sort award, then?
18:42:15 <zzo38> Is the longest day of the year, when we have to switch off daylight saving time?
18:42:16 <elliott> Deewiant: Wasting vectors on that :P
18:42:57 <Deewiant> elliott: Too painful to see something like partition running on linked lists :-P
18:43:03 <zzo38> Now the real question is to figure out some actual purpose of this algorithm (or a variation), other than sorting!
18:43:25 <elliott> It's quite bad at that too.
18:45:24 <zzo38> It is bad at that, too!
18:54:04 <Goosey> What the hell is that..
18:54:44 <pikhq> Goosey: The floating point coprocessor on the x86.
18:54:51 <pikhq> Now integrated into the CPU.
18:55:25 <pikhq> The wikileaks leak is out.
18:57:05 <pikhq> Among other things, it reveals that the US embassies form a global espionage network.
18:57:58 <elliott> "Wow! Automated equational theorem proving for (a subset of) Haskell: http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ws506/tryzeno/ -- the future yet nearer
18:57:58 <Goosey> I think that is what embassies are usually for...
18:58:15 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ws506/tryzeno/ this this this
18:58:17 <pikhq> Goosey: No, they are *not meant for espionage on everybody and everything*.
18:58:55 <zzo38> pikhq: That has been my concern always, a bit.
18:59:39 <elliott> pikhq: prop_reverse_idem xs =
18:59:39 <elliott> reverse (reverse xs) === xs
18:59:41 <elliott> pikhq: And it just proves it.
19:01:59 <Goosey> pikhq: It's a conspiracy man, they are....
19:02:32 <elliott> Goosey: are you aware of the definition of "conspiracy"
19:02:35 <elliott> Goosey: quick -- who did 9/11?
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19:03:05 <Goosey> I'm fucking with you, I don't buy any of that bullshit. :/ Just so you know..
19:03:13 <pikhq> Goosey: It's not much of a crazy conspiracy theory if the evidence for it *is coming from leaks of internal communications*. ;)
19:03:25 <pikhq> Though it could quite possibly be an actual conspiracy. :P
19:03:28 <zzo38> No! Terrorists did 9/11 attack but after the attack, the government made up a secret conspiracy to do things about it that do not work, because it is a conspiracy for something else!
19:03:51 <pikhq> zzo38: They didn't keep it all that secret. They just convinced the public at large that it works.
19:03:53 <elliott> zzo38: now do you actually believe that
19:04:55 <Ilari> Those plans apparently existed before 9/11 happened, but 9/11 was convient excuse to take them into use... And I wouldn't rule out intentional fsckup (a'la Pearl Harbor)...
19:04:59 <zzo38> Well, it is partially because of stupid government agencies, but also because of conspiracy, too. Of course the things they try to do to stop terrorism, mostly is completely wrong and useless and does not even make sense.
19:06:27 <zzo38> My anstomzm program has a "jokes" entry in the index.
19:06:32 <elliott> "Mogensen gives a very elegant partial evaluator in pure lambda calculus, which optimize as expected with the Futamura projections (see Dan’s post). This partial evaluator works on higher order abstract syntax, taking and returning descriptions of terms rather than the terms themselves. Essentially all it is is (very simple) machinery describing how to evaluate under a lambda." links to http://tinyurl.com/cnyyph, behind paywall
19:07:40 <elliott> http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/05/04/lazy-partial-evaluation/ in general...
19:08:18 <elliott> "We are currently under a mass distributed denial of service attack." -- Wikileaks.
19:09:22 <elliott> pikhq: " fib = lub [\0 -> 0, \1 -> 1, \n -> assuming (n >= 2) $ fib (n-1) + fib (n-2) ] -- valid, reasonably efficient #haskell (using Data.Lub)"
19:09:28 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/lub/0.1.6/doc/html/Data-Lub.html
19:10:02 <pikhq> elliott: The leak from Wikileaks has gone out via various news organizations because of that DOS.
19:10:54 <Goosey> Anyways I couldnt get on it either :/
19:12:20 <zzo38> It is almost time for Hypernet -- no denial of service attacks, no need for unique addresses, and it works even if the government takes away your internet.
19:12:35 <elliott> "Here is a statement from Hillary Clinton, who ordered a secret intelligence campaign targeting the leadership of the UN, including the secretary general, Ban Ki-moon and the permanent security council representatives from China, Russia, France and the UK."
19:12:42 <elliott> zzo38: And what exactly is hypernet?
19:13:08 <pikhq> elliott: Gotta admit, the US has balls.
19:14:25 <zzo38> elliott: I have idea, and have think of it much, but do not know exactly. But it must use strong security, non-centralized, hash code, non-physical addressing, and transfer over any medium (including ham radio and barcodes, as well as internet).
19:14:26 <Goosey> No, the US is just being ran by idiots
19:14:46 <elliott> Goosey: they're not stupid, they're very competent... and they're not exactly evil, they really believe what they're doing is best.
19:14:49 <elliott> they're deluded and wrong.
19:15:14 <zzo38> I do not think the government even knows everything about itself.
19:15:40 <pikhq> Goosey: Their actions are certainly not that of idiots, *in general*.
19:15:58 <pikhq> But rather a bunch of people who believe that the fourth reich is a good idea.
19:16:22 <Goosey> Not really, the actions are good sometimes, but they are trying to reach a goal which is idiotic in itself..
19:16:40 <Goosey> I'm thinking of Obama specifically
19:16:55 <elliott> "As a hypothetical hacker who might enjoy wikileaks, I may consider the possibility that my attacks on wikileaks would be both obviously ineffective in stopping this release, and simultaneously increase the hype surrounding the release of the information, to its benefit."
19:17:18 <elliott> meh, this is boring, let's talk about computing
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19:17:43 <pikhq> Oh, Obama's not significantly different from most of the other Presidents we've had. It honestly feels like that job is about as relevant as student body president at a school.
19:18:18 <elliott> "Little Green Footballs blogged my Wikileaks tweets"
19:18:29 <elliott> Larry Sanger: because getting on Little Green Footballs is an achievement, not shameful.
19:19:04 <elliott> "El Pais, Le Monde, Speigel, Guardian & NYT will publish many US embassy cables tonight, even if WikiLeaks goes down"
19:19:06 <elliott> " @wikileaks unlikely: if legit news sources publish cables not avail. on Wikileaks, they become primary sources & risk repercussions"
19:19:10 <elliott> Larry Sanger: I know more than the newsappers!
19:19:16 <elliott> (Guardian tweeted that they would publish them specifically.)
19:19:52 <pikhq> It's Speigel's cover story for tomorrow.
19:20:17 <pikhq> Likely for the others as well.
19:20:28 <pikhq> And ♥ The Guardian.
19:20:29 <zzo38> Goosey: Do you know of MegaZeux? I even made some games on MegaZeux. Did you?
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19:25:04 <zzo38> Goosey: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/
19:25:15 <Goosey> What do you guys think of an implementation of brainfuck with a 3D array of stacks?
19:25:37 <zzo38> Goosey: Write something like that on the wiki, if you like to.
19:25:48 <Goosey> I don't have the compiler or anything yet
19:25:52 <pikhq> Well, it makes a large class of algorithms simpler while still being a tarpit.
19:26:11 <zzo38> Goosey: That is OK; just write the description on the wiki. Add the compiler later
19:26:24 <Goosey> I don't have an interpreter either, but alright..:P
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19:26:54 <pikhq> For instance, it makes arrays not a complete pain.
19:26:58 <zzo38> Goosey: That is OK; you can add the interpreter later. Just write the description at first, is OK.
19:27:06 <elliott> Goosey: Make it an infinite-D array of infinite-D arrays of infinite-D arrays ...
19:27:15 <zzo38> Many articles on the wiki are for unimplemented things (some of which are unimplementable!)
19:27:24 <elliott> Goosey: who said i'm joking
19:27:32 <Goosey> Let me create an account then :D
19:28:25 <zzo38> One idea I have, is if you have a variant of FlooP (described in Hofstadter's book) with the REDPROGRAM command built-in.
19:28:26 <Goosey> So shoudl I put it in list of ideas?
19:28:35 <pikhq> elliott: Now *that's* an interesting topological space.
19:28:45 <zzo38> How much more powerful does that make it?
19:28:57 <elliott> pikhq: the only kind of data is addresses
19:29:05 <elliott> which are, um, let's think
19:29:06 <zzo38> Goosey: In the list of ideas? It depends if the description is complete or not.
19:29:17 <elliott> pikhq: a fully-qualified address is an infinite list of an infinite list of naturals
19:29:27 <zzo38> If the description is fully proper, put in the language list and add the "Unimplemented" category. Otherwise, just put your ideas in the list of ideas.
19:29:35 <elliott> pikhq: a partially-qualified address (i.e. printing to a metainfiniteDarray) is a finite list of an infinite list of naturals
19:29:48 <elliott> pikhq: and that's the only kind of data you have, every object is indistinguishable, all you have is addresses
19:29:50 <elliott> pikhq: good luck computing anything
19:29:52 <elliott> pikhq: i guess you could like
19:29:54 <Ilari> Oh, then there are those languages that are implemenetable and implemented, but impossible to implement efficiently.
19:29:58 <elliott> move meta-infinite-D-arrays around
19:30:23 <elliott> means that virtual address Y resolves to real address X
19:30:25 <elliott> and that's all you have or something
19:30:46 <Goosey> I've never made a new page....how? xD
19:31:24 <zzo38> Goosey: Enter the name of the page in the URL and then edit
19:31:32 <zzo38> There are other ways, too.
19:32:29 <Ilari> (I have designed one such turing tarpit and even implemented it). I sure as heck wouldn't even want to try running "99 bottles" on it...
19:32:44 <zzo38> Anyone who has plaed MegaZeux before, try this game: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ASCMZXTO.ZIP
19:33:11 <Ilari> IIRC, hello world program took 15 seconds to run in the first interpretter version (I later optimized it down to 40 milliseconds).
19:34:00 <zzo38> And still about my other question? How much more powerful do you think it would make it if you make a variant of FlooP but with the REDPROGRAM command added? And what would happen if instead you made a variant of BlooP with the REDPROGRAM command, instead?
19:35:07 <zzo38> (Of course, REDPROGRAM is impossible to actually implement.)
19:35:57 <Ilari> Any reference about REDPROGRAM?
19:36:09 <Vorpal> ineiros_: your map image files are quite large. 5 second processing on my old computer cuts it by almost half. (advpng -z1)
19:36:25 <zzo38> Ilari: In Hofstadter's book. But I can tell you what it is, too.
19:39:25 <Ilari> Heh... If one instantiated the grammar class in that unimplementable-efficently esolang with unrestricted grammars (isntead complements of context-free grammars), the result would be super-turing (in fact, AH-Sigma-2)
19:40:10 <zzo38> O, so that is how you specify computational classes of super-turing! I did not know that, before.
19:40:53 <Ilari> Instatiation with complements of context-free grammars results in turing-complete langage.
19:43:25 <Ilari> Give turing machine halting oracle for AH-Sigma-n, and the result can decide all problems in AH-Delta_(n+1), Detect all yes answers for AH-Sigma_(n+1) and detect all no answers for AH-Pi_(n+1) (without oracle the corresponding classes are are AH-Delta_1 = R, AH-Sigma_1 = RE and AH-Pi_1 = co-RE).
19:43:28 <elliott> # Type-generic expressions using the _Generic keyword (#define cbrt(X) _Generic((X), long double: cbrtl, default: cbrt, float: cbrtf)(X))
19:43:33 <elliott> coming soon to a c1x near you
19:47:08 <Goosey> what do you call parts of a stack, elements?
19:47:54 <elliott> pikhq: Do you need another reason not to use GNU software?
19:47:59 <elliott> pikhq: 'Cause I've got one! http://sprunge.us/TPPe
19:48:27 <elliott> pikhq: (or, In Which Inexplicably Assholish IRC Moron Who I Try And Aid Turns Out To Be An Inetutils Developer)
19:48:30 <pikhq> Oh, you're talking to ams. *Fun*.
19:48:33 <elliott> <goibhniu1> elliott: since you're new .. ams has nothing to do with nix .. he just enjoys being rude to people here :/
19:48:48 <pikhq> He is best known as an asshole who should be banned from all the IRC channels.
19:49:19 <elliott> The GNU operating system! Brought to you by Drepper and ams!
19:49:37 <elliott> pikhq: this was in #nixos, which I somehow doubt he actually uses
19:49:54 <pikhq> He is such an asshole.
19:49:59 <pikhq> Not to mention a moron.
19:50:08 <elliott> never encountered him before. that fact is now plainly clear to me
19:50:26 <pikhq> He's one of the few guys who actively develops Hurd.
19:51:41 <elliott> pikhq: but nobody *needs* a reason not to use hurd :)
19:51:55 <elliott> pikhq: wanna help me tarpit a microkernel interface???!?!!
19:52:36 <elliott> pikhq: anyway good to know the maintainer of GNU's "ping" among other things doesn't even know shit about free() :)
19:53:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: stop stalkin' me.
19:54:12 <elliott> pikhq: http://sprunge.us/gXiR
19:54:18 <elliott> pikhq: Gogogo refine and address problems :P
19:54:34 <elliott> pikhq: A problem I didn't mention is that just about any page-based IPC solution has the problem of a malicious program borking the page / two processes writing to the page at once.
19:55:39 <ais523> hmm, TIL that Python has while-else and for-else loops
19:56:06 <ais523> also, I remember reading a comment on reddit, thinking "that seems exactly like ehird's opinion", then looking at who wrote it and seeing it was ehird
19:56:18 <ais523> about ESR and the Jargon File
19:56:24 <elliott> I'm surprised that one got upvoted at all
19:56:33 <ais523> you think your opinion on the matter is unpopular?
19:56:54 <ais523> also, I come into contact with far too many people who don't understand free() at the moment
19:56:56 <elliott> ais523: esr is rather popular, although admittedly he has been called out a lot more recently
19:57:02 <ais523> occupational hazard of teaching C
19:57:14 <ais523> the C students are doing so much worse than the Java students...
19:57:15 <elliott> ais523: are any of them gnu maintainers?
19:57:27 <elliott> Teaching someone C as a first language is just stupid.
19:57:36 <zzo38> Bad programming is done in any programming language.
19:57:43 <Ilari> Oh, and how did those students "replace" sizeof with size_t?
19:57:45 <ais523> elliott: they're masters' students, in theory they know other languages
19:57:46 <elliott> You don't see what the machine's doing, but you have to deal with what the machine's doing anyway; it can't really equip you for that at all.
19:57:54 <ais523> Ilari: because sizeof wasn't in NetBeans' autocomplete
19:57:56 <elliott> ais523: they're masters' students?!?!?!?!
19:58:00 <ais523> never mind that they'd been told not to use it
19:58:06 <elliott> ais523: i was thinking like clueless undergrads
19:58:16 <ais523> elliott: yep, which means that many of them are coming from other universities, and many not have a legitimate first degree
19:58:21 <pikhq> elliott: Remember: most "programmers" genuinely *suck*.
19:58:26 <ais523> Goosey: who cares, this is #esoteric
19:58:39 <pikhq> elliott: You are far above average simply because you grok C.
19:58:45 <Goosey> I can perform something like
19:58:52 <ais523> the people learning Java for the first time are first-year undergrads, and much better than the masters students
19:58:54 <elliott> pikhq: i'm not sure grokking c is a useful skill :)
19:59:08 <Goosey> and then whenever 0 shows up in the code, it's replaced
19:59:10 <ais523> hmm, that looks like an esolang all right
19:59:10 <elliott> pikhq: grocking assembly, yes; grocking haskell/lisp/whatever, yes; C? it's a bit of a hermaphrodite language
19:59:15 <ais523> and replaced with what?
19:59:18 <elliott> Goosey: what if you do +{++}?
19:59:22 <Goosey> what is contained in the brackets
19:59:23 <elliott> ais523: with the body of the {}, one assumes
19:59:31 <Goosey> only commands that aren't built in
19:59:39 <Goosey> characters that would otherwise be a comment
19:59:42 <ais523> elliott: understanding C means that you understand what the processor is actually doing at the asm level, generally speaking
20:00:04 <elliott> ais523: hmm... i'm not sure
20:00:08 <Ilari> I can't even imagine how one could replace sizeof in any manner (no matter how wrong) with size_t...
20:00:09 <Goosey> But I dont know, it seems to defeat the purpose of bf a little..
20:00:11 <ais523> not in actual asm statements
20:00:11 <elliott> ais523: anyone who says "C/C++" is clearly defying that
20:00:12 <pikhq> elliott: Understanding C means that you have a modicum of intelligence and understand the current lingua franca.
20:00:19 <elliott> ais523: because C++ is very far removed from the machine
20:00:24 <elliott> ais523: and a lot of people treat C like C++ without features
20:00:30 <ais523> elliott: my experience is that people mean two different things by C++
20:00:32 <elliott> pikhq: not sure c is the lingua franca, probably java is :P
20:00:42 <zzo38> I write a lot programming with C and using bitwise operations and other things in C, including Enhanced CWEB.
20:00:53 <elliott> ais523: "C with Classes" and "MetaFunctionalTransmogrifier (with pointers underneath but NEVER USE THEM)"?
20:00:57 <pikhq> elliott: I'm fairly certain the FFI for every language goes through C.
20:00:58 <ais523> one set of people are the ones who write std::auto_ptr<> everywhere, those are the people who understand C++ as C++, and it's a completely different language from C
20:01:05 <ais523> and the other set are those who use C++ just for the // comments
20:01:23 <zzo38> But modern C compilers can still use // comments even without C++ mode.
20:01:25 <elliott> ais523: they usually use classes too
20:01:26 <Goosey> Tell me, does it defeat the purpose of bf?
20:01:28 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, I understand C despite having resolved not to go into programming.
20:01:36 <zzo38> And Enhanced CWEB supports // style comments even if your C compiler does not.
20:01:39 <elliott> Goosey: everything defeats the point of bf, but it might not defeat the point of $your_language :)
20:01:42 <ais523> (seriously, I met someone with that opinion a while ago, although I think he may have been trolling; he was deliberately taking a Microsoft fanboy viewpoint, which is trollish in most places on Freenode)
20:01:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I hypothesise that this is the essential reason almost all programmers suck.
20:02:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Those who can actually program go into maths or proper CS.
20:02:07 <Goosey> I don't know, I want to keep it minimalistic, so for now, I'll leave it out.
20:02:38 <ais523> you won't likely beat BF at BF's purpose (most BF derivatives are awful command substitutions), but you can beat it at something else, and many langs do
20:02:38 <elliott> ais523: the viewpoint that C++ is useful for // comments? heh
20:02:39 <Ilari> There are lot of people who simply can't program in any language.
20:02:49 <elliott> ais523: also, there's one more group: Slava Pestovs, who use C++ because it has namespaces and nothing else
20:02:54 <ais523> elliott: when pressed, he said and the occasional class
20:02:56 <pikhq> Ilari: And a lot of those get paid to program.
20:02:58 <elliott> the only member of this group is Slava Pestov
20:02:58 <ais523> or words to that effect
20:03:10 <elliott> http://factor-language.blogspot.com/2009/05/factor-vm-ported-to-c.html
20:03:25 <ais523> oh, incidentally, double-free working forces programs to leak memory, there's no way to implement it otherwise
20:03:28 <zzo38> // comments is C++ feature, but usable in many C compilers (it is meaningless to put two / tokens together)
20:03:38 <ais523> zzo38: it's a C99 feature as well
20:03:48 <ais523> also, //**/ is legal C89
20:03:53 <elliott> <ais523> oh, incidentally, double-free working forces programs to leak memory, there's no way to implement it otherwise
20:03:53 <ais523> but people generally don't use it
20:03:58 <pikhq> elliott: There's also Oleg.
20:04:02 <elliott> erm, couldn't free(X) just fail silently if X is not allocated?
20:04:13 -!- wxl has joined.
20:04:23 <ais523> freeing NULL /is/ legal, by the way
20:04:30 <ais523> elliott: the issue is that something else might have been allocated in the meantime
20:04:32 <Ilari> And "fizzbuzz program" being interview question tells something... For any serious programmer, that task is fscking joke...
20:04:34 <zzo38> ais523: O, //**/ I forgot about that. But it is still not sensible?
20:04:46 <pikhq> elliott: It can also launch the missiles.
20:04:46 <ais523> then, your double free deallocates data elsewhere in your program
20:04:48 <zzo38> elliott: It also depnds a lot about how memory management is implemented?
20:05:14 <ais523> glibc will stackdump if it notices a double-free, which it will if the address wasn't reallocated meanwhile, and there's an environment variable to tell it to ignore and keep on running
20:05:18 <ais523> I hope nobody actually /uses/ it
20:05:33 <elliott> ais523: I used that backtrace to fix a bug in pcc!
20:05:36 <elliott> I should submit the patch sometime.
20:05:46 <zzo38> I think some C compilers (maybe GNU C? I am not sure) can turn off // comments if needed??
20:05:49 <ais523> zzo38: //**/ is indeed not particularly useful, that's why the C standard people decided they didn't care about breaking it
20:06:05 <ais523> gcc will turn off // comments if you ask for strict C89 mode, e.g. using -ansi or -std=c89
20:06:13 <Goosey> one feature I like, is that data incremented is not commited until it's actually pushed to the stack.
20:06:14 <elliott> ais523: It's a rather embarrassing mistake, but understandable for a program of 1970 vintage: http://sprunge.us/hhjR (this is a unified diff)
20:06:30 <elliott> ais523: This works with glibc but not with alternate libcs (well, you can tell dietlibc and uClibc to allow it, but you shouldn't really)
20:06:54 <elliott> ais523: I forget what helped exactly, but I definitely got a backtrace when it was free()'d later
20:06:57 <elliott> it might not have been glibc actually
20:07:04 <elliott> probably wasn't actually since I wasn't linking with glibc
20:07:09 <ais523> free was originally defined not to change the memory it freed, incidentally, so you could use the memory safely until your next malloc or free
20:07:24 <ais523> but not nowadays, as that screws up many plausible implementations, and fails in multithreaded programs
20:07:43 <ais523> e.g. DJGPP malloc stores metadata in a block immediately after freeing it
20:07:59 <zzo38> Enhanced CWEB will only put comments in the output program for section numbers (if it does so, the comments are /* */ style and on a line by itself), or if you use @=@> or @{send()@} while WEB will put comments in output program for section numbers and for @{@} (the @{@} in WEB is often used like #ifdef in C)
20:08:26 <ais523> elliott: incidentally, malloc(0) is allowed to return a pointer
20:08:41 <ais523> some libcs interpret it as malloc(8)
20:08:41 <Ilari> Ah yeah, investigating DJGPP allocator with purpose of seeing if one game is exploitable... :-)
20:08:43 <elliott> ais523: glibc does, but dietlibc and uClibc don't by default
20:08:47 <zzo38> (The other purpose of @{@} in WEB is for compiler directives; ordinary Pascal comments with {} are not copied to the output)
20:08:49 <elliott> ais523: see http://sprunge.us/hhjR for the fix to the bug this caused in pcc
20:08:50 <fizzie> I think I saw somewhere code that did "p = malloc(N); free(p); [messy code using p]" because "that makes it so much easier to avoid memory leaks".
20:08:56 <Goosey> this is the hello world program I came up with
20:08:58 <Goosey> '!'\'d'\'l'\'r'\'o'\'W'\' '\'o'\'l'\'l\'e'\'H'\ [./]
20:09:04 <ais523> fizzie: that's beautiful
20:09:21 <Goosey> letters can be created through regular incrementing though
20:09:30 <zzo38> fizzie: But that is a improper code!
20:09:55 <zzo38> Post any improper codes like this into The Daily WTF if you think they are of the kind of things can be posted there in the red category.
20:09:56 <elliott> zzo38: how do you pronounce improper?
20:10:01 <elliott> surely that should be "an improper"
20:10:09 <elliott> in fact, is improper even the right word there?
20:10:21 <ais523> hmm, now I'm trying to figure out if malloc(0) returning NULL should simultaneously set errno to ENOMEM or not
20:10:33 <pikhq> fizzie: Makes it so much easier to launch the missiles.
20:10:34 <ais523> EINVAL would make more sense, but is against the literal wording of the man page
20:10:50 <ais523> it's the sort of success that's worse than failure
20:10:59 <elliott> ais523: *that's what the fuck
20:11:14 <zzo38> ais523: And that is The Daily WTF, the Worse Than Failure.
20:11:16 <ais523> the sentence doesn't make any sense if you say "what the fuck" there
20:11:19 <elliott> ais523: (see wut i did thar see wut i did thar)
20:11:45 <ais523> also, I preferred the name worsethanfailure, if the program just /doesn't work/ it's no fun, it's when it does work and makes no sense that it's fun
20:12:15 <elliott> ais523: it's more the fact that it was an admitted deliberate bowlderisation, not an "honest" name change
20:12:28 <ais523> "wtf" is quite a bowlderisation in itself
20:12:35 <elliott> anyway the daily WTF is just terrible, putting it in the hands of a .NET Windows developer who runs ASP.NET software is ... yeah
20:12:44 <ais523> also, thedailywtf is really hard to mentally pronounce, worsethanfailure is much easier
20:13:06 <elliott> also all the submissions are the same boring stuff these days
20:13:30 <ais523> and Windows is a better place to find those things anyway, not because Windows is inherently prone to WTFs (it might be, but that isn't the real reason here), but because the sort of programmers who make them are more likely to be working on a Windows stack, or maybe typical mysql/PHP hosting
20:13:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Are we still discussing how 99% of people are incorrigible morons?
20:14:01 <ais523> apparently, the submissions are always edited into unrecognisability anyway nowadays; someone said they submitted something and didn't recognise the resulting story
20:14:11 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I think we came back to that topic via a different route
20:15:32 <zzo38> There is still comments and sidebar, though. And also old articles. But you can still read the new articles, too.
20:16:16 <zzo38> My complaint is that the sponsor appreciation are blue category, I think they should belong in a gray category since the articles work like those in the gray category in generally.
20:16:26 <ais523> zzo38: I loved your WebFlogScript example in the coding help subforum, btw
20:16:28 <elliott> the categories have names, you know
20:16:40 <ais523> I have to find it again, now
20:17:28 <elliott> [[ "Print or Fish" was originally published on 2005-11-22, and never seems to grow old... ]]
20:17:31 <elliott> it's five goddamn years old!
20:17:37 <ais523> http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/8373/162327.aspx#162327
20:17:37 <elliott> slightly over that in fact
20:17:39 <zzo38> elliott: It doesn't matter what they call it, they can call it "Sponsor Appreciation" category if they want to, but its color should be gray. (There are some categories that do share colors with other categories)
20:18:07 <elliott> ais523: oh, so it's not actually a flogscript program that outputs html
20:18:17 <zzo38> (The other gray category is the "Error'd" category)
20:18:52 <elliott> ais523: http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/8373/165183.aspx#165183
20:19:02 <elliott> ais523: why use two appropriate languages when you can use only one inappropriate language?
20:19:14 <ais523> somehow, I don't quite think that thread expected that answer
20:19:35 <Ilari> IIRC, on Linux, one can't map 0 pages... :-)
20:19:48 <elliott> ais523: ok, now i just want to know if you can do a full web app in SQL, assuming you have a table called, say, context containing query string, post data, etc.
20:19:56 <elliott> ais523: CRUD has never been so cruddy!
20:20:17 <elliott> SET MARKUP HTML ON SPOOL OFF;
20:21:00 <ais523> Client.c:(.text+0x83): warning: the `gets' function is dangerous and should not be used.
20:21:09 <ais523> question: is it fair to deduct someone 2 and a half grade boundaries for that?
20:21:18 <elliott> "Maybe not the most elegant, but I thought it's worth sharing. C# .Net & SQL2005. Grabs raw XML from SQL output and loads it to an XSLT file for output."
20:21:34 <ais523> this mark scheme is draconian
20:21:36 <elliott> ais523: what's the context?
20:21:44 <zzo38> Even some of the programs I wrote in GWBASIC did not use line numbers (and GWBASIC requires line numbers).
20:21:51 <elliott> ais523: as in, is there an easy situation to imagine where you can easily overflow that?
20:21:56 <elliott> ais523: almost certainly, I would guess
20:22:12 <elliott> ais523: in which case, yes. I suppose there *might* be ... some ... context in which gets is abominable but not TOTALLY abominable.
20:22:18 <elliott> ais523: No, fuck it, it's unacceptable. Deduct the marks.
20:22:37 <Ilari> For fun, try to get there and then crash the app... :-)
20:22:50 <ais523> interpreting it literally, it would be a deduction of 4 grade boundaries, which would be even more ridiculous
20:22:57 <ais523> that's from a first to a fail
20:23:08 <elliott> ais523: come on, he used gets()
20:23:15 <elliott> ais523: well... how big is the buffer?
20:23:26 <elliott> 1024 and it's a human typed message or whatever? ok, deduct 2.5
20:23:31 <elliott> 80 or something and it's the same? fail!
20:23:54 <ais523> elliott: wow, you dumped a lot of info at once, from my point of view
20:23:59 <ais523> I wonder if I had a connection hiccup?
20:24:22 <elliott> ais523: but i still saw what you wrote
20:24:27 <elliott> can you see this? respond ASAP
20:24:41 <elliott> can you see this? say "yes2" ASAP
20:24:50 <elliott> ok, your connection is fine now
20:24:54 <elliott> have fun reading my messages :P
20:25:23 <ais523> they also used scanf("%[^\n]") into a 100-byte buffer
20:25:35 <ais523> user input in both cases, what else would you use gets() for?
20:25:42 <elliott> ais523: yes, but it could be like
20:25:44 <ais523> and intended to be human-typed
20:25:49 <elliott> or it could be an IRC-style message
20:25:51 <Goosey> In memfuck(current name) Cat is produced like so: +\[>,\[./]<]
20:25:56 <ais523> elliott: it was, literally, an IRC-style message
20:26:06 <ais523> the question could be best described as "like IRC, except using UDP"
20:26:24 <elliott> ais523: well, 4096 bytes with gets() is only worth a 1 to 2 grade deduction i think, since that's far more than irc allows
20:26:31 <elliott> ais523: but scanf on a 100-byte buffer?
20:26:37 <elliott> ais523: deduct as many marks as you possibly can
20:26:44 <ais523> that was for a username
20:26:47 <elliott> ais523: although... if his program compiles and runs and works, then don't
20:26:53 <elliott> ais523: because i bet a lot of the others don't :)
20:26:55 <ais523> oh, the program doesn't work
20:27:16 <ais523> yep, I'm just trying to interpret a markscheme that deducts 2.5 grade boundaries for any warning
20:27:31 <ais523> that's caught at the warning level of -Wall without -Wextra and without optimisation, which is a really screwed up warning level
20:27:47 <elliott> ais523: eh? -Wextra isn't all that popular
20:27:54 <elliott> and optimisation doesn't add warnings does it?
20:28:02 <ais523> most of them can't be caught without optimisation
20:28:10 <ais523> because there isn't enough information
20:28:16 <elliott> ais523: ...wow just wow @ gcc.
20:28:19 <Ilari> Heh... When I did programming course, assignments were failed for any warning...
20:28:27 <elliott> Ilari: now *that's* just stupid
20:28:34 <ais523> e.g. at -O2 you get nice warnings like "warning: this buffer will always overflow"
20:28:43 <elliott> ais523: I say: deduct as much as you can, *unless* all the other programs are *even more terrible*.
20:28:43 <ais523> Ilari: I'm marking to a similar markscheme right now, and it seems unfair
20:28:50 <ais523> elliott: no, that was one of the worse ones
20:28:59 <elliott> ais523: ok, I see no reason not to kick it to death then
20:29:08 <Ilari> Well, in context of that course, it wasn't very unfair.
20:29:21 <ais523> now, I have a different student's work, which is mostly very good except they forgot to include string.h
20:29:24 <Ilari> (multiple returns with feedback).
20:29:27 <ais523> and their makefile uses -Werror, so it doesn't compile
20:29:45 <elliott> ais523: wait, i was thinking of them as a clueless 18 year old
20:29:54 <zzo38> Is it possible to configure which warnings are considered errors and which are warnings?
20:30:07 <ais523> Ilari: they were told to use -Werror, as a method to make them take warnings seriously
20:30:21 <ais523> zzo38: there's -pedantic-errors, but nothing finer-grained than that IIRC
20:30:39 <elliott> I usually go for -Wall -pedantic
20:30:44 <ais523> agreed; -pedantic-errors is over the top, though
20:30:53 <ais523> especially as the standard itself only insists on warnings
20:31:16 <ais523> (to be precise, diagonstics of any type, the compiler defines what a diagnostic is, but everyone interprets it as "warnings or above")
20:31:19 <elliott> ais523: oh, that -pedantic is with -std=c89
20:31:28 <ais523> elliott: they've been told to use -std=gnu99
20:31:32 <ais523> in fact, the examples won't compile without it
20:31:33 <zzo38> Some I think ought to be errors, some I think ought to be warnings, and some I think ought to be considered correct and have no warning and no error.
20:31:38 <elliott> ais523: i have little faith in this course
20:31:43 <ais523> I would have complained, except the course is focusing on C as a method of teaching hacking Linux
20:31:55 <ais523> zzo38: if you consider it correct, you can use -Wno-
20:31:56 <elliott> ais523: please god keep these people away from my kernel
20:32:08 <elliott> ais523: at least it's motivation for me to work on @ :)
20:32:10 <ais523> e.g. -Wno-format-security to turn off warnings about printf(variable);
20:32:23 <elliott> ais523: hmm, is there a -Wno-if(x=y)-warnings?
20:32:24 <ais523> elliott: I guessed from context
20:32:25 <Ilari> Heh... Reminds me of one of my programs... It has some code accepted from somebody else... Guess which modules have -Werror and which don't? :-)
20:32:40 <ais523> elliott: I believe so; clang even tells you what the option is, unlike gcc
20:34:06 <Ilari> IIRC, extra pair of () should silence that warning...
20:34:12 <ais523> elliott: -Wno-parentheses
20:34:19 <Goosey> elliott: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Memfuck
20:34:20 <ais523> and as Ilari says, you can suppress it by doubling the parens of the if
20:34:39 <ais523> in fact, I've taken to using double parens around any assignment in an expression that isn't just x=y=z
20:34:44 <ais523> to say "yes I really mean this"
20:34:46 <Goosey> I'll write more, but that's all I got without an interpreter or compiler to base what it's capabilities are
20:35:04 <elliott> Goosey: is User:Goosey actually registered?
20:35:08 <elliott> you created that page as an IP
20:35:24 <zzo38> For example, in Enhanced CWEB the assignment operator is printed by left arrow to easily tell the difference of a equal operator, so, we do not need that warning. But using numbers as pointers and pointers as numbers (except zero) without cast should be error, instead of a warning.
20:35:26 <elliott> Goosey: btw, suggestion: whenever you add commands to BF, take a BF command away to make it interesting :-)
20:35:59 <Goosey> but do you think the structure right now is solid enough to implement?
20:36:26 <ais523> elliott: hmm, this student would get full marks, apart from the inability of it to compile due to the missing header, and because it reads data after a free()
20:36:33 <elliott> Goosey: I fixed up your page a bit.
20:36:39 <elliott> Goosey: formatting and categories
20:36:44 <ais523> oh, and not checking the return value of fgets, but I bet those marks will be moderated up because the other TAs didn't think to check
20:36:53 <elliott> ais523: deduct the minimum you can + 1
20:36:53 <pikhq> "Reads data after a free"?
20:36:56 <Goosey> Thanks, wasn't sure how to add categories
20:36:57 <elliott> ais523: i.e. second-minimum
20:37:02 <elliott> pikhq: yes, but come on, everyone else is even worse than this.
20:37:07 <ais523> it's a fixed markscheme, no place for subjectivity in theory
20:37:10 <pikhq> Instant fail in the course, if it were up to me...
20:37:13 <ais523> because it has to be the same between different markers
20:37:18 <elliott> pikhq: they're masters' students :)
20:37:19 <pikhq> elliott: Then everyone should fail.
20:37:20 <ais523> pikhq: it's -3 out of 20, that's quite a lot
20:37:34 <ais523> and pretty much every student got that -3 for some reason or another, mostly overflowing fixed-size buffers
20:38:03 <pikhq> ais523: That earns them -1 degree.
20:38:33 <ais523> (mostly only if too much data was given, but several students wrote code that was guaranteed to overflow no matter what; in particular, many students seemed to think strcat had the magical property of working even in contexts where no sensible function would)
20:38:45 <ais523> I've lost track of how many times I've seen strcat to an uninitialized buffer
20:39:11 <ais523> one student even tried strcat to a buffer initialized with a constant string with no length specified
20:39:22 <ais523> and gcc with -O2 gave me a nice little "this function will always overflow its buffer" warning
20:39:43 <ais523> I'm using -O2 just to get the warnings
20:39:51 <ais523> I run the programs at -O0 to reduce the chance they crash arbitrarily
20:40:27 <ais523> (also, the second exercise, the example code they've been given to work with malfunctions at -O1 or higher, because it tries to use a loop to busywait without checking timers or even changing a volatile variable)
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20:41:14 <pikhq> These are all mistakes I'd want to hand out a failing grade for. Dear God, I must be absolutely amazing just because I don't completely and utterly suck at this.
20:41:20 <pikhq> ais523: Fail the professor!
20:41:25 <ais523> pikhq: oh, I would if I coudl
20:41:57 <elliott> ais523: is there a way back up from the rabbit hole?
20:42:07 <ais523> in fact, the course has two professors, one who distributes examples which don't compile with their recommended -Werror (mixing up signed and unsigned pointers), and the other who's ridiculously strict about everything and recommended the -Werror in the first place
20:42:38 <ais523> the first one set the exercise, then unexpectedly had to leave for several weeks, and I've had to do loads of work to try to handle the fallout
20:43:09 <pikhq> ais523: And now I see absolutely nothing wrong with my exploiting the statement of the problems on programming assignments just to amuse myself.
20:43:32 <ais523> pikhq: you have to be careful, you may lose marks just because the markers don't understand what you did
20:43:33 <pikhq> "Implement foo non-recursively" → "Implement foo with a manual call stack instead of using the C stack"
20:43:59 <ais523> the best submission I saw clearly did something like that, their server wasn't what the rest of us had expected, but a server in the Apache sense
20:44:06 <ais523> it had things like thread pools, logging, and daemonization
20:44:11 <ais523> even though we hadn't asked for them
20:44:36 <elliott> ais523: unless they're Vorpal; then they might have actually meant it *seriously*
20:44:39 <ais523> hey, I can't report other student's marks!
20:45:00 <elliott> ais523: although automatic daemonisation is actually an anti-feature...
20:45:08 <ais523> I know, it made it a pain to mark
20:45:30 <elliott> ais523: OTOH, they're clearly way too bored by this and so how good their program is is basically irrelevant because they should pass anyway :)
20:47:24 <ais523> the most annoying thing about the course is that many students found an exercise which was meant to test that they understood the basics of C and managed to avoid using either pointers or memory management
20:47:28 <ais523> and yet the solution was still mostly correct
20:48:28 <elliott> ais523: to be honest, i tend to avoid using memory management too! although not pointers
20:48:35 <elliott> i don't think i've called malloc in my last three, four C programs at all
20:48:37 <pikhq> ais523: I'd be tempted to do so as well.
20:48:51 <elliott> pikhq: surely not pointers, they're the easiest way to iterate...
20:49:02 <elliott> and the only way to pass around arrays
20:49:08 <pikhq> elliott: Only tempted to subvert the point of the assignment.
20:49:15 <elliott> *and the only way to pass around statically-allocated storage :P
20:49:22 <pikhq> elliott: Also, not true in C99.
20:49:57 <pikhq> Well, technically it's still a pointer behind the scenes, but you *can* pass around actual C arrays just fine in C99.
20:50:21 <pikhq> int foo(int n, int bar[n])
20:50:27 <ais523> void do_something_with_an_int_array(int length, int array[length])
20:50:43 <ais523> pikhq: hey, no getting there first just because I used meaningful variable names!
20:50:56 <elliott> ais523: I'm sorry, but I'd rather see pikhq's line in a program than yours.
20:51:06 <ais523> elliott: indeed, but I'd rather see my line in an example
20:51:10 <elliott> ais523: Calling a variable "length" is bad enough; call an array "array" and I'll never talk to you again.
20:51:18 <elliott> (Unless it's a generic array operation.)
20:51:27 <ais523> well, it's clearly a very generic operation, given its name
20:52:15 <elliott> ais523: surely it should be "void *do_something_with_an_int_array(void (*function)(void *element), int length, void *array[length])"
20:52:24 <elliott> ais523: where the return value is a pointer to the newly-constructed array
20:52:44 <ais523> or permutation-determined-by-length map
20:52:55 <ais523> hmm, seems the Tuesday relevance came several days too early, this week
20:53:20 <ais523> they used pretty much exactly that example, to try to prove that just the type signature said a lot about the function given certain reasonable assumptions
20:54:02 <elliott> ais523: now if they were using haskell...
20:54:08 <elliott> map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
20:54:10 <elliott> not actually all that helpful really
20:54:31 <elliott> although if you assume it does the *minimum possible orthogonal operation*, then it's easy to deduce
20:54:41 <elliott> reversing is an "extra step", so it doesn't do that
20:54:42 <ais523> elliott: their assumptions were orthogonality assumptions
20:54:55 <elliott> because it doesn't treat the whole data structure equally
20:54:57 <Goosey> wikipedia is shrinking
20:54:59 <ais523> they were trying to demonstrate that their assumptions were useful given the situation
20:54:59 <elliott> so the only thing it can be given those assumptions is
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20:55:07 <elliott> map f (x:xs) = f x : map f xs
20:55:12 <ais523> Goosey: you mean, pages are being deleted faster than they're being created? or something else?
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20:55:30 <Goosey> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Turing_tarpit&oldid=138230249
20:55:34 <Goosey> That is the OLD revision
20:55:44 <Goosey> I trust you can check the new one :)
20:55:52 <elliott> Goosey: removing pointless fluff is not a bad thing
20:55:57 <elliott> length(page_text) is not a valid metric
20:56:05 <Goosey> I have seen that on MANY pages
20:56:10 <elliott> the Examples section is worthless, there
20:56:17 <elliott> and "Use of phrase in computer science" is uncited bullshit
20:56:51 <elliott> lol, the universal rebuttal.
20:57:22 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language is a better article than i expected
20:57:28 <elliott> although lolcode should not be the first entry there :(
20:57:41 <Goosey> but it isn't fun to program in
20:57:43 <elliott> and WHY does http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxi_Programming_Language have an article
20:57:46 <elliott> Goosey: lolcode is the worst esolang ever.
20:58:31 <ais523> elliott: LOLCODE is, unfortunately, the most famous esolang
20:58:48 <elliott> <civodul> viric: ams was asking about the status of NixOS on MIPS
20:58:48 <elliott> <civodul> so i was advertising your hard and fruitful work :-)
20:58:51 <elliott> <ams> no, you where trying to get me to do viric work so he can get all the credit... du'h.
20:59:08 <elliott> ais523: hmm, i think it may be tied with brainfuck
20:59:12 <elliott> ais523: but you're probably right i guess
20:59:37 <pikhq> elliott: He makes RMS look positively well-behaved and accepting of dissent.
20:59:41 <elliott> ais523: brainfuck gets a *lot* of publicity in random forums -- think bad design, Invision Power Board, circa 2004-2006 sort of places; it ends up popping up a lot... and I'm not sure how I know this
21:01:11 <elliott> pikhq: can i hire you to write a super-awesome specialiser
21:02:47 <pikhq> elliott: I accept $50 American Gold Eagles.
21:03:29 <elliott> pikhq: certainly, i'll go kill an american eagle and gold-plate it
21:03:42 <pikhq> No, I mean the legal tender coin.
21:11:00 <zzo38> This game is bad because Hitler played it.
21:12:55 <elliott> <ams> make nixos free software, and we can host it on ftp.gnu.org
21:12:55 <elliott> <viric> I agree making it free software
21:12:55 <elliott> <viric> Although doing that only to get hosting... :)
21:12:55 <elliott> <ams> making nix a gnu poroject could be cool
21:12:55 <elliott> <ams> viric: the main reason should be to respect your users
21:12:57 <elliott> <viric> oh oh, I'm shocked, lessons about respect
21:13:01 <elliott> pikhq: you can't make this shit up
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21:16:36 <zzo38> I like to write free software so that the software can be used and improved.
21:17:05 <Goosey> I like to write expensive software to teach people how to steal.
21:17:30 <elliott> Goosey: unless the software is like, Theft: The Interactive Tutorial, then you don't
21:17:33 <elliott> you teach them how to infringe copyright
21:18:48 <zzo38> You are allowed to charge as much money as you want for free software. But it is still illegal for someone to go to your house and steal the disk.
21:19:18 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, ams really is more of a zealot than rms.
21:19:42 <elliott> pikhq: now he's chastising them for having Acrobat Reader packages and using kernel.org Linux rather than linux-libre
21:19:50 <elliott> pikhq: and telling them they need a policy on Freeness
21:20:27 <elliott> pikhq: tempted to write vams(1) now
21:20:54 <pikhq> Which shoots you if you have the audacity to use kernel.org Linux.
21:21:22 <elliott> woo, I have non-free packages installed!
21:21:28 <elliott> 11 non-free packages, 0.7% of 1678 installed packages.
21:21:29 <elliott> 2 contrib packages, 0.1% of 1678 installed packages.
21:22:00 <elliott> "The Free Software Foundation lists vrms among packages that don't respect its Free System Distribution Guidelines"
21:22:04 <elliott> Description: Purports to tell you about nonfree software on your system.
21:22:04 <elliott> Problem: Incomplete and misleading.
21:22:04 <elliott> Recommended Fix: Remove it, a free distribution doesn't need it.
21:22:23 <elliott> ais523: a debian package that tells you about all the non-DFSG stuff you have on your system
21:22:29 <pikhq> ais523: Virtual RMS. It tells you if you've installed any packages from contrib or non-free.
21:22:33 <elliott> I would just like to list http://libreplanet.org/wiki/List_of_software_that_does_not_respect_the_Free_System_Distribution_Guidelines here
21:22:37 <elliott> Homepage: http://xchat.org/
21:22:37 <elliott> Problem: Refers to a non-free browser in its URL handlers.
21:22:37 <elliott> Recommended Fix: Remove the URL handler entry.
21:22:41 <elliott> presumably it means Firefox...
21:23:10 <ais523> wait, referring to nonfree software violates the FSDG? and that has a confusingly similar acronym to the DFSG?
21:23:27 <ais523> *initialism, if there are any pedants watching
21:23:29 <elliott> ais523: apparently you have to remove Chromium, too!
21:23:52 <pikhq> ais523: Emacs violates the same, then.
21:23:55 <coppro> who made these guidelines
21:24:06 <pikhq> (it refers to Win32 and DOS a lot in its manual)
21:24:15 <elliott> pikhq: the author of the emacs tutorial had to avoid mentioning win32/dos
21:24:19 <elliott> because rms said he couldn't
21:24:23 <pikhq> elliott: *facepalm*
21:24:38 <elliott> pikhq: IIRC, he was also told to insert a lot of the language about "you MAY have arrow keys on your TERMINAL!" too
21:24:41 <coppro> rms does not need crack to write guidelines like this
21:24:51 <elliott> coppro: no, it's just that he's always on crack
21:24:54 <elliott> coppro: it was just an extra detail
21:25:10 <coppro> the debian documentation
21:25:12 <elliott> Description: Gaming server that emulates Battle.net®
21:25:12 <elliott> Problem: only useful with proprietary software
21:25:20 <elliott> you can't make this shit up
21:25:27 <pikhq> elliott: I see absolutely *nothing* wrong with merely mentioning proprietary software. Especially when it's such well-known software that anyone who hasn't heard of it is too in awe at the magic box to bother reading documentation.
21:25:34 <elliott> pikhq: [[ Description: Gaming server that emulates Battle.net®
21:25:34 <elliott> Problem: only useful with proprietary software ]]
21:25:54 <elliott> [[ Description: scripts to talk to the CIA commit service.
21:25:54 <elliott> Problem: contains a script for bitkeeper, which is only useful with proprietary software
21:25:54 <elliott> Recommended Fix: remove bitkeeper script ]]
21:26:01 <elliott> [[ Description: command-not-found is the program sugesting what package to install if one tries to execute a non-installed application in a shell.
21:26:01 <elliott> Problem: suggests proprietary software ]]
21:26:03 <coppro> elliott: that's a wiki, right?
21:26:07 <elliott> ais523: the FSF consider command-not-found non-Free
21:26:12 <elliott> coppro: sure; you go audit the revision history
21:26:23 <coppro> I was thinking I should add one for
21:26:36 <coppro> "does something RMS already wrote software for"
21:26:44 <elliott> heh, indeed, the Debian documentation is non-FSF
21:26:53 <coppro> "is written by someone who works for a software company
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21:27:02 <elliott> [[ Description: Web browser
21:27:02 <elliott> Problem: recommends non-free software ]]
21:27:10 <elliott> they aren't even complainig about the artwork or tardemark
21:27:17 <elliott> [[] Firefox 2 in the repos allows you to install flashplayer 10. I have tested this myself, and it downloads, installs and runs.]]
21:27:25 <elliott> FIREFOX IS NON-FREE BECAUSE IT LETS YOU INSTALL FLASH
21:27:46 <coppro> also isn't the artistic license FSF-approved?
21:27:57 <Ilari> No mention of branding (which is why Debian has Iceweasel)?
21:28:03 <pikhq> elliott: But the crazy trademark and artwork scheme? A-OK.
21:28:03 <elliott> Ilari: nope, just recommending flash
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21:28:13 <elliott> Description: firefox based web browser
21:28:14 <elliott> Problem: same issues as firefox, incl. suggesting proprietary plugins
21:28:14 <elliott> Recommended Fix: use gnu icecat ]]
21:28:33 <elliott> " linux linux-backports-modules* linux-ubuntu-modules "
21:28:41 <coppro> look at the thunderbird entry
21:28:47 <elliott> [[ Description: Allows running MacOS inside a GNU/Linux system.
21:28:47 <elliott> Problem: Only runs/supports proprietary software. ]]
21:28:58 <coppro> Problem: Recommends non-free software (extensions).
21:28:58 <coppro> Recommended Fix: Change link to point to GNUzilla's list of free addons.
21:29:04 <coppro> YOU CANNOT MAKE THIS SHIT UP
21:29:34 <elliott> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnewsense-users/2007-02/msg00027.html in which vrms outputs 7 gnu packages and nothing else
21:30:03 <elliott> coppro: i even kinda respected the gnewsense people before this
21:30:19 <elliott> coppro: but they're not dedicated to Free Software -- they're dedicated to pretending non-Free Software doesn't even *exist*!
21:31:02 <coppro> elliott: that is... wow
21:31:24 <elliott> [[ Description: UNetbootin allows for the installation of various Linux/BSD distributions to a partition or USB drive, so it's no different from a standard install, only it doesn't need a CD. It can create a dual-boot install, or replace the existing OS entirely.
21:31:24 <elliott> Homepage: http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/
21:31:24 <elliott> Problem: It lists many non-fsdg operating systems. ]]
21:31:50 <coppro> can we just kill RMS now pls
21:32:03 <elliott> FUSBi, the Free USB Installer, downloads free GNU/Linux Distributions for you and creates bootable USB images.
21:32:04 <elliott> FUSBi supports automated installation of of all the FSF-endorsed Free Software GNU/Linux Distributions, such as gNewSense, UTUTO, Dynebolic, Musix GNU+Linux, BLAG and GNUstep. You can also use it with your local image files.
21:32:05 <elliott> http://aligunduz.org/FUSBi/
21:32:13 <elliott> wow there is a gnustep livecd.
21:32:40 <elliott> "Personas for Firefox Changes the look of the browser easily MPL 1.1/GPL 2.0/LGPL 2.1 Licenses stated on the website." --IceCat addons
21:32:47 <elliott> I bet most of the Persona themes
21:32:47 <coppro> why do dfsg consider make-doc and the like non-free
21:32:56 <elliott> coppro: GFDL with invariant clauses
21:33:01 <elliott> coppro: for instance, you can't modify the emacs manual to remove the GNU manifesto
21:33:09 <elliott> coppro: redistributing it like that is disallowed
21:33:17 <elliott> coppro: (The GFDL is pretty much the worst license... ever.)
21:33:35 <coppro> especially because it makes GCC docs suck
21:33:35 <elliott> coppro: btw, if I have an urge to make a license that's even more GPL than the AGPL, just for the esoteric of it, is that bad?
21:33:38 <coppro> since they can't include snippets
21:33:41 <coppro> because that violates GPL
21:34:03 <elliott> I was thinking that it'd be like the AGPL, except s/over a network/over any kind of communication -- Unix pipes, IPC, anything/
21:34:12 <coppro> elliott: don't forget system calls
21:34:14 <elliott> that would disallow proprietary frontends to GPL'd programs
21:34:53 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what about disallowing any transfer of data whatsoever to anything proprietary?
21:35:02 <coppro> the ultimate fsf isolationist software
21:35:03 <elliott> coppro: I was going to add a clause saying that a shell being able to pipe one program to another doesn't make this apply, so that you can distribute non-GPL'd programs with a system
21:35:08 <elliott> coppro: but what the heck, let's not include that exception
21:35:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Copying and pasting GCC output into IE: a license violation.
21:35:21 <elliott> "Anything that makes a sideways glance at this program must be IGPL'd (Insane General Public License)."
21:35:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: make it *Microsoft's* license violation
21:35:35 <coppro> Free General Public License
21:35:41 <pikhq> God, the GFDL sucks so bad.
21:35:47 <elliott> coppro: FUGPL Fucked Up General Public License -- or, to every developer ever, the Fuck You General Public License
21:36:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Installing the software on Debian: A licence violation.
21:36:22 <Sgeo> I guess I can't use FUGPL'd software on Windows?
21:36:34 <elliott> reading about the software on a non-totally-GPL'd operating system: license violation
21:36:37 <coppro> elliott: Apparently someone once made the mistake of introducing RMS as an author of open source
21:36:46 <elliott> knowing about the software and using non-FUGPL'd software in any way: license violation
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21:37:17 <pikhq> coppro: Oh, the ranting that must have brought.
21:37:47 <elliott> coppro: <viric> elliott: so promotion of non-free software (like that gaming server) is counted as not respecting
21:37:48 <elliott> coppro: <viric> elliott: now it's time to consider the "lack of features" a promotion of non-free software
21:37:50 <elliott> i fully support this motion
21:38:27 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, so not having something proprietary software has is a promotion of it?
21:38:45 <elliott> because people might use that software because it's more featured
21:38:59 <elliott> in fact, every second spent not replacing all software with GPL'd equivalents is a second spent in sin
21:39:20 <coppro> and you'll go to a special hell for that
21:39:26 <coppro> you'll have to spend eternity listening to RMS
21:40:04 * Sgeo wonders if anyone really uses vrms
21:40:52 <pikhq> coppro: Mostly, yeah.
21:41:06 <coppro> in fact, I'm curious to see what I have that is non-DFSG, so I'm downloading vrms
21:41:21 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, having any use whatsoever for proprietary software is a licence violation.
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21:41:25 <elliott> coppro: "downloading"? surely you just mean installing :P
21:41:39 <coppro> elliott: have to download first... but yes, through apt
21:41:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: not licensing your thoughts under the FUGPL is a license violation
21:41:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: having a dream involving non-FUGPL'd software is a liecnse violation
21:41:53 <coppro> flash and microsoft fonts
21:42:05 <coppro> also some nvidia drivers apparently
21:42:07 <coppro> but I just removed them
21:42:26 <zzo38> Why did they send a request like this? "POST http://127.0.0.1:6667/ HTTP/1.0"
21:42:39 <elliott> zzo38: it's some exploit i think
21:42:42 <elliott> that hasn't worked in years
21:42:48 <elliott> it connected to the irc server, i think
21:42:53 <elliott> because it proxied to localhost's irc port
21:43:01 <elliott> so people wrote javascript to do that with an iframe or something
21:43:12 <elliott> <coppro> also some nvidia drivers apparently
21:43:12 <elliott> <coppro> but I just removed them
21:43:15 <elliott> coppro: are you on a nvidia card?
21:43:24 <coppro> I don't even know why they were on my system
21:43:32 <zzo38> If you want to connect to my IRC server you use the proper IRC client please.
21:43:43 <elliott> coppro: mine are: http://sprunge.us/PYKQ
21:43:54 <zzo38> Not trying things like this that doesn't work the IRC is not even HTTP
21:44:08 <elliott> coppro: Coq documentation, Emacs documentation, gcc documentation, LHA, Sun's Java (for Minecraft), and the non-free TTFs for Luxi Mono which I don't even use because Emacs fails at it so I'll just remove that.
21:44:52 <Sgeo> GFDL violates DFSG, or is the documentation under some other license?
21:44:53 <coppro> actually, my list might not be 100% accurate, depending on how vrms works
21:45:04 <coppro> Sgeo: If it has invariant sections, yes
21:45:12 <elliott> GFDL violates DFSG under certain conditions
21:45:15 <elliott> GNU likes those conditions a lot.
21:45:29 <elliott> coppro: it just lists every package from the non-free and contrib repos installed
21:46:06 <elliott> coppro: iirc the Artistic License v1 won't be included
21:46:12 <elliott> because debian consider it Free or something
21:47:13 <pikhq> elliott: AL 1 isn't DFSG.
21:47:29 <zzo38> Why do they try to access /favicon.ico with every request? Can't the client cache it? Do I need to change the response code to 410 instead of 404 to make it stop doing that?
21:47:55 <Sgeo> elliott, reread what zzo38 said
21:48:05 <elliott> zzo38: IIRC some browser buggily requested a 404'd one every request
21:48:07 <elliott> zzo38: so it might be those.
21:48:14 <zzo38> Or should it change 412?
21:48:25 <pikhq> Argh, it is. And Wikipedia lies.
21:49:13 <elliott> pikhq: I'm now trying to figure out if specialising Y for argument fact gives you the "obvious" way to do a recursive fact in the lambda calculus.
21:49:21 <elliott> pikhq: And if you can then somehow transform this into a directly recursive function.
21:49:53 <elliott> All interesting partial evaluators seem to use “The Trick” (i.e. eta expansion) somewhere to get specialization going. How does that work in your machine?]]
21:52:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: enjoy your eye pain
21:53:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm assuming the eye pain comes from whatever is normally in the borders.
21:53:55 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Edinburgh author Iain M. Banks,]] — Somewhere on the webosphere
21:54:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Honestly, North Queensferry is hardly indistinguishable from Edinburgh.
21:58:54 <zzo38> What more channels do I need?
22:00:24 <zzo38> I can add in any channels you requested *now*, before it is too late!
22:00:49 <Phantom_Hoover> So, I'm assuming "200-metre long cigar with globes full of shooty things" is a good starting point.
22:02:20 <Sgeo> " Visit Embassy Tel Aviv's Classified Website:"
22:07:17 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: That irregularly shaped thing immediately below the staircase pair is one below sea level.
22:07:29 <fizzie> (Because it's that pool.)
22:07:38 <zzo38> Now I added one channel
22:08:17 <fizzie> Speaking of the stairs, heh, it seems that the torches along the edge of the stairs make it look like the stairs are three wide in the topo-map.
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22:14:30 <Sgeo> elliott, why am I a pope?
22:14:57 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, Vorpal, elliott, vote for where I have planning permission. Over the causeway is my current location.
22:16:30 <Sgeo> Is "planning permission" a formal thing or just a rule of the server?
22:16:45 -!- Sasha2_ has joined.
22:17:25 <Sasha2_> I am running Biome Terrain Mod
22:17:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean?
22:17:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, "can I build a huge and very visible structure in the air over the causeway?"
22:17:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "causeway"?
22:18:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, do you mean the skyway?
22:18:16 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:18:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, do you mean the bridge?
22:18:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if you mean over the bridge: no. Also it would mess up the max alt reeds
22:18:44 <zzo38> I prefer C instead of C++.
22:19:02 <Goosey> I was just wondering though
22:19:12 <Goosey> I started out with functional languages
22:19:22 <zzo38> Then use C. Learn C. I like to use Enhanced CWEB.
22:19:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Goosey, Prolog isn't functional, although it's very closely related to functional language.
22:19:56 <Phantom_Hoover> And an introduction to programming that most of us can only dream of.
22:20:02 <Goosey> Ahhh, splitting hairs main.
22:20:16 <Goosey> I didn't learn C until like my 3rd language
22:20:24 <Goosey> and I wasn't interested in it for a while
22:20:42 <zzo38> C is a very good program language to learn. Forth is also a good program language to learn.
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22:23:55 <Sgeo> At least C++ has more of a reason to exist than C++/CLI
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22:24:44 <wareya> the only useful thing about C++ is that it's like C but you can put functions in objects and that there's inheritance
22:24:51 <zzo38> You can have opinion, if you want to. But I prefer Enhanced CWEB (in C mode).
22:25:09 <Sgeo> elliott, you hate Smalltalk now?
22:25:14 <elliott> <Goosey> I started out with functional languages
22:25:14 <elliott> <Goosey> Prolog was my first
22:25:35 <wareya> elliott: not if you're making something like a video game
22:25:37 <elliott> functional first language is incredibly rare in programming
22:25:47 <Goosey> I don't care for video games though
22:25:50 <elliott> Sgeo: inheritance is one of smalltalk's mistakes :) newspeak corrects this
22:25:54 <wareya> If you think that inheritance is bad for video games that I don't know what to tell you.
22:25:59 <zzo38> I think in C, it is not even useful for function in object and inheritance, because C has pointers and structures and unions and preprocessor, and you can make similar stuff like what you need, with it. And even Enhanced CWEB, to add interpreted codes at compile-time.
22:26:08 <elliott> wareya: hell, I don't think objects are suitable for video games.
22:26:14 <elliott> but objects with inheritance are the worst.
22:26:30 <wareya> have fun in a world where video games don't ever use objects
22:26:36 * Sgeo is excited for Newspeak... but when will it settle down?
22:27:01 <zzo38> I do think prototype inheritance is useful for text-adventure games, though.
22:27:22 <wareya> elliott: Hell for video game designers
22:27:36 <elliott> wareya: um, video game *designers* don't code.
22:27:51 <elliott> anyway you have no idea what hell is, you were just brought up on imperative programming and now you have a stupid, warped view of everything
22:28:11 <wareya> I was brought up on shoving as much logic into one line as possible.
22:28:33 <zzo38> I design a game, I will generally, also program it into the computer. I make a game differently than other one, but that is because I have different opinion than other one, is OK!?
22:28:34 <Deewiant> elliott: Are there any mature-ish FRP libraries yet?
22:28:37 <elliott> wareya: yes. you're hardcore. don't ever forget that.
22:28:51 <wareya> Trying to be hardcore is the mark of a bad programmer, which I am.
22:28:59 <elliott> Deewiant: Yes and no. It's easy to do FRP if you know what application you're using it in.d
22:29:04 <elliott> Deewiant: General FRP is... heh.
22:29:17 <Deewiant> elliott: So just for some domains, or what?
22:29:19 <elliott> Deewiant: The current best solution for general FRP is to use a lazy specialiser implementaiton of a language.
22:29:28 <wareya> But it's not because I try to be hardcore, it's because I can't think outside the box of having a main loop with an object instance manager.
22:29:34 <elliott> Deewiant: I'm pretty sure that at least with games, there are robust FRP libraries. But I don't do that, so I don't know.
22:29:59 <elliott> Deewiant: There are simple, general FRP implementations, but they leak space. Lazy specialisers fix this problem, but of course are far from mainstream language implementation and need runtime code generation.
22:30:10 <elliott> Deewiant: Thankfully as an idealist OS developer, I can bundle as many runtime code generators as I like :)
22:31:14 <Deewiant> elliott: /lastlog lukepalmer... ah, I see. ;-P
22:31:18 <Sgeo> Why do a lot of people seem to suggest that Scala's only good part is the JVM thing?
22:31:32 <Sgeo> Am I the only one who wants to see languages in terms of the language itself?
22:31:39 <Deewiant> I submit that that's its only bad part
22:31:50 <Deewiant> Without knowing most of the language
22:32:04 <wareya> People love justifying themselves in the simplest way possible.
22:32:06 <elliott> Deewiant: Shut up shut up I'm not identical to Luke Palmer SHUT UP
22:32:09 -!- elliott has changed nick to Iukepalmer.
22:32:13 <wareya> well, their things, not themselves.
22:32:14 <Iukepalmer> nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
22:32:18 -!- Iukepalmer has changed nick to elliott.
22:32:41 * Sgeo chops off three serifs
22:32:58 <Deewiant> elliott: I'm just wondering what you would've answered if I'd've asked, say, 24 hours ago
22:33:10 <elliott> Deewiant: the same actually
22:33:16 <Sgeo> elliott, howso?
22:33:18 <elliott> Deewiant: I just wasn't planning to use FRP in my OS until today :P
22:33:21 <elliott> Deewiant: I'd already read all the materials.
22:33:41 <elliott> Sgeo: "Hooray! Functional power with Java flexibility! What's that? Our free mixing of effectful and stateless code has meant we can't do obvious program transformations? Our programs aren't composable? All of functional programming's benefits gone? ...Well, at least it runs on Java!"
22:33:57 <elliott> Deewiant: But no, general FRP doesn't really exist right now. Ho hum.
22:35:33 <elliott> Deewiant: Or should I say "we know exactly how to do it, and it's really hard" :P
22:35:56 <Deewiant> elliott: "All benefits" is a bit of a stretch, sounds like Haskell loses all the benefits because it has an IO monad :-P
22:36:15 <elliott> <Deewiant> elliott: "All benefits" is a bit of a stretch, sounds like Haskell loses all the benefits because it has an IO monad :-P
22:36:30 <elliott> Deewiant: it would if everyone made all their functions result in IO and just made pure functions be "return whatever".
22:36:55 <Deewiant> Oh, they don't segregate purity statically at all?
22:37:13 <elliott> Deewiant: I don't think so.
22:37:22 <elliott> Deewiant: Or if they do it's clearly not very effective, as you can e.g. call java methods for math or whatever.
22:37:23 <Deewiant> (Disclaimer: I know hardly any Scala)
22:37:36 <elliott> Deewiant: And presumably they haven't segregated "pure Java API functions" from impure ones because that'd be a *gigantic bitch* to do.
22:37:43 <elliott> Deewiant: Plus they'd have to do it for every Java library ever.
22:37:56 <Deewiant> elliott: They can have done it for just java.lang.Math, of course. :-P
22:38:20 <elliott> Deewiant: Considering that everyone goes OMG SCALA YOU CAN CALL INTO JAVA CODE ITS WONDERFUL, I doubt that.
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22:38:46 <Deewiant> And if it's user-specifiable, they can just do it a bit at a time.
22:38:53 <Deewiant> And let the users worry about what's not done.
22:39:03 <elliott> Deewiant: I have read little bits of Scala and written my own simple programs.
22:39:13 <elliott> Also I keep track on the general functional programming whateverosphere.
22:39:16 <elliott> Deewiant: I have never heard of that once.
22:39:34 * Sgeo wants to hotswap Haskell
22:39:45 <Deewiant> elliott: That "everyone" that goes like that presumably is not the crowd that would write pure functions anyway. ;-P
22:39:58 <elliott> Deewiant: One wonders what they see in Scala.
22:40:08 <elliott> Deewiant: (Perhaps it's the shorter anonymous function syntax.)
22:40:25 <Sgeo> The syntax has a weird flexibilit
22:40:34 <Sgeo> Have you seen specs?
22:40:51 <Sgeo> Not necessarily saying it's "good", just perhaps a reason some people like Scala
22:41:48 <zzo38> How many surrealists does it take to change a light bulb? Two. One to hold the giraffe and three to fill the bathtub with brightly colored machine tools.
22:46:37 <elliott> 23:37:30 <Gregor> augur: What with mud being /just/ a complex assortment of organic and inorganic molecules some of which are dissolved into and others of which are suspended in water.
22:47:16 <augur> elliott is agreeing with me on something
22:47:23 <elliott> i agreed with Gregor there
22:47:36 <elliott> 23:41:18 <Gregor> Y'know what people? Curry chicken is JUST chicken and curry powder. SUCK IT.
22:47:48 <elliott> 23:42:18 <augur> Gregor: no, it doesnt. curry chicken needs at least some sort of liquid.
22:48:11 <augur> i didnt really read what you wrote
22:48:45 <elliott> 23:43:21 <augur> i know because im a linguist!
22:48:47 <elliott> don't you mean linguistician
22:48:53 <elliott> 23:43:57 <pikhq> Linguistics has little to do with cuisine.
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22:49:44 <elliott> 23:49:14 <augur> non-compositionality, bitches
22:49:44 <elliott> 23:49:17 <augur> get used to it
22:49:50 <elliott> augur: sounds like something an imperative programmer would say
22:50:07 <elliott> 23:51:05 <pikhq> Gregor: Which are clearly not curry made with potato chips.
22:50:20 <Gregor> I've had curry potato chips.
22:50:22 <Gregor> They ... aren't that good.
22:50:23 <augur> noncompositionality is just the fact that some phrases have meanings that dont derive from the meanings of their parts
22:50:32 <elliott> Gregor: 23:50:51 * Gregor continues to read but not participate in this conversation while munching on curry potato chips.
22:50:38 <elliott> Gregor: Yes you have, that's what inspired pikhq to say that :P
22:50:47 <elliott> Gregor: But I approve of the idea of curry made with crisps.
22:50:49 <augur> im going to order pizza :T
22:51:01 <elliott> <augur> noncompositionality is just the fact that some phrases have meanings that dont derive from the meanings of their parts
22:51:09 <Gregor> elliott: Oh ... OK, that'd also be bad, but curry PO-TA-TO-CHIPS also aren't good.
22:51:26 <elliott> Gregor: s/bad/BRILLIANT/; s/PO[^ ]+/CRISPS/
22:51:51 <elliott> 23:51:21 <augur> ask them if curry chicken can be just chicken coated with curry then fried
22:51:51 <elliott> 23:51:27 <augur> bet you the answer will be no.
22:51:55 <zzo38> Do you know how to play double-loaded dice chess?
22:52:11 <Gregor> elliott: Presumably removing the word "potato" isn't a British-vs-American thing, just a "I choose to be ambiguous" thing? :P
22:52:26 <Gregor> elliott: Or do you call tortilla and corn chips something other than crisps?
22:52:31 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, because "potato chips" minus "potato" is "crisps".
22:52:36 <elliott> Gregor: Because chips = crisps.
22:52:41 <elliott> Gregor: You fail at sentences :P
22:52:53 <elliott> Gregor: Doritos are crisps, yes.
22:52:55 <Gregor> elliott: I was pointing out that in addition to making the change, you're ALSO removing the word potato.
22:53:06 <elliott> Right. "potato crisps" is valid but just sounds weird.
22:53:24 <elliott> Gregor: In fact all of those are crisps. Chips are big chunky pieces of potato that you deep-fat fry, or French fries.
22:53:37 <elliott> Never do you say "potato chips"... well, I guess you could make chips out of like... turnips or something.
22:53:43 <elliott> And then you'd have cause to disambiguate to "potato chips".
22:53:49 <Gregor> I'm talking about CRISPS X_X
22:53:53 <elliott> YOU'RE A FILTHY AMERICAN BASTARD
22:54:14 <pikhq> elliott: To us, "chips" are only big chunky pieces of potato that you deep-fat fry in the context of fish & chips.
22:54:22 <Gregor> elliott: SAY IT! SAY "POTATO CRISPS"! SAY IT FOR DISAMBIGUATION YOU TOOTHLESS BRITISH PUNK
22:54:26 <elliott> pikhq: that's just because you're stupid
22:54:38 <elliott> Gregor: Is that your impression of all Brits? :P
22:55:16 <elliott> 23:59:01 <Gregor> I'm part-Ashkenazi, and nobody cares whether you're religiously Jewish for you to be a Jewish comedian anyway :P
22:55:17 <elliott> 23:59:25 <oklopol> i thought jews are like the OPPOSITE of nazis
22:55:22 <elliott> why did oklopol not get showers of praise for this
22:55:25 <Gregor> elliott: From my one visit to Britain, I think I can say with fair certainty that Brits have less of a penchant for tooth maintenance than Americans, which is not to say that their teeth are naturally worse, just that they don't give a shit, so the lower-bound is lower.
22:56:06 <elliott> Gregor: It also may be that you think teeth being slightly yellow is a sign of not enough maintenance, rather than being a sign of not drinking bleach :P
22:56:19 <pikhq> Gregor: Americans are a bit fanatic about the aesthetic appearance of teeth.
22:56:29 <Gregor> elliott, pikhq: Yes, exactly :P
22:56:49 <pikhq> Gregor: However, Britain has healthier teeth on average.
22:56:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Did that have... any context at all?
22:57:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: "X" was my "t". Anyway, elsewhere a moment.
22:57:24 <pikhq> They're just yellow and crooked, rather than bleached white and mangled into straightness.
22:58:05 <zzo38> Do you know how to play: double-loaded dice chess? monstery poker? monstery Landlord game? any kind of charades game where all motions must be equivalent?
22:58:29 <pikhq> Yes, just like many Americans.
22:58:30 <elliott> pikhq: they're not that crooked :P
22:58:52 <Gregor> elliott: Yes they are :P
22:58:59 <pikhq> elliott: Is orthodontia very commonly practiced there?
22:59:22 <Gregor> I have a PERMANENT piece of metal in my teeth. It is glued into my teeth and there for my entire life. Keep that in mind when answering :P
22:59:33 <elliott> pikhq: they exist, yes. i went to see one because i have a tooth that, instead of going down like it should, decided it didn't have enough space and took two years to jut out slightly above the other two teeth
22:59:40 <zzo38> Did you know that the only telephone in all of hell, allows local calls only, please?
22:59:45 <pikhq> elliott: Braces are *very* common in the US.
22:59:50 <elliott> pikhq: there was an appointment made for the next day to take it out.
22:59:56 <elliott> to take one next to it out so it could descend
23:00:03 <elliott> I still have that tooth jutting out.
23:00:05 <elliott> It causes me no real problems.
23:01:04 <elliott> i'll probably get it taken out at some point
23:01:20 <Gregor> elliott: I think you just proved our point :P
23:01:23 <elliott> although it does hide the slight gap
23:01:33 <elliott> Gregor: I'm a /rare/ case, there is absolutely no reason that tooth didn't come out :P
23:01:49 <Gregor> elliott: You're talking about the removal of one tooth, not years of braces.
23:01:57 <elliott> Gregor: I would have gone along with it except I'm a fucking wimp and a dentist injecting my gums and then ripping out a tooth sounded like the worst day ever.
23:02:42 <Gregor> elliott: I had all four of my wisdom teeth taken out in one sitting. PUSSY.
23:02:55 <elliott> Gregor: I think one of my teeth at the back is a wisdom tooth... maybe.
23:03:12 <Gregor> Also I had an Herbst Appliance ... worst thing ever.
23:04:11 <elliott> Gregor: Does it look like this? http://personal5.iddeo.es/mmoreira/images/braces/lisa_simpsons.jpg
23:05:22 <Gregor> elliott: No, that's headgear.
23:05:34 <Gregor> Headgear would have been a welcome relief from the fucking Herbst appliance.
23:05:57 <Gregor> I broke that Herbst appliance hundreds of times. I SHEARED THE FUCKING METAL NAILS RIGHT IN HALF.
23:06:19 <elliott> Gregor: i think that your idea of dentistry is... um... excessive
23:06:29 <Gregor> That's not dentistry, it's orthodontia :P
23:06:33 <elliott> Gregor: you do realise slightly yellow teeth are natural right? and that slightly crooked teeth don't feel problematic at all? :D
23:06:41 <elliott> y'all crazy bastards, i'm proud of our british teeth
23:06:44 <Gregor> But they're not pretty!
23:06:57 <Gregor> And I have a proud, jutting American chin thanks to my Herbst appliance!
23:07:04 <Gregor> elliott: You don't wear headgear in public, only while sleeping :P
23:07:10 <elliott> Gregor: I like to think that you do.
23:07:19 <elliott> I swear she did in that episode.
23:07:21 <elliott> America is so fucked up. :P
23:07:27 <pikhq> elliott: We're fucking crazy.
23:07:41 <pikhq> elliott: If it makes you feel better, I haven't had braces.
23:07:47 <pikhq> Or tooth whitening.
23:07:56 <elliott> see here, our whitening system is
23:08:04 <elliott> every single fucking toothpaste is sold because it's WHITENING
23:08:15 <elliott> probably has bleach in it :P
23:08:22 <pikhq> You can purchase tooth bleaching kits over the counter here.
23:08:58 <Gregor> The toothpaste is of course all whitening toothpaste here.
23:09:01 <Gregor> But then, so is the water.
23:09:47 <elliott> i think celebrities get like tooth whitening but they're practically americans as far as i'm concerned
23:10:11 <elliott> http://ryani.freeshell.org/nat_0.txt A proof that 0 is a natural number!
23:10:51 <Gregor> Wow, freeshell.org still exists.
23:11:30 <elliott> Gregor: All I remember about SDF is that the administrator is a huge asshole :P
23:11:51 <Gregor> elliott: Not enough of an asshole to not offer free shells in two-thousand-and-fucking-ten.
23:11:59 <zzo38> Don't ever think for one moment that you have won.
23:12:55 <elliott> Gregor: IIRC someone said something about not buying a premium account because of the cost as an aside in some random thing that was related (although I forget how), and he spent a whole post saying that they probably scavenged out the back of a McDonald's for food because they're so poor and worthless :P
23:13:43 <Gregor> Sounds about right *shrugs*
23:13:57 <Gregor> I should offer free plash-based shells :P
23:14:30 <elliott> Gregor: Y'know, standard Unix is meant to be secure in a multi-user environment :P
23:14:42 <elliott> It's only when multiple people get one user that it's an issue.
23:14:55 <elliott> You might want to disable world reading access to home directories though :P
23:14:58 <zzo38> Gregor: Offer plash-based shells with home directories that are accessible by Hackiki if you have set the permissions.
23:15:20 <Gregor> zzo38: There ya go! Now it's all coming together X-D
23:15:36 <elliott> Gregor: omg and let people query egobot with commands here
23:15:40 <zzo38> elliott: Yes. That can work, too, I think.
23:15:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:16:06 <elliott> Gregor: WAIT, run the system on ... whatever the fuck your POSIX-on-other-OSes thing was called.
23:16:23 <elliott> Gregor: Give shell access exclusively by DirectNet!
23:16:25 <Gregor> Microcosm; and it's not mine, I just started it because other people insisted, I want it to be theirs :P
23:16:31 <elliott> Gregor: Write the server in Plof!
23:16:40 <Gregor> At some point I really need to combine EgoBot with HackBot to make a meta-egotistical thing.
23:16:40 <elliott> Gregor: Match the colours for the DirectNet messages with your neural net!
23:16:49 <elliott> Gregor: Make people compete in an FYB tournament to keep their accounts!
23:16:55 <Gregor> elliott: Thank you for listing my astounding accomplishments :P
23:16:58 <elliott> Gregor: Run the system on JSMIPS!
23:17:02 <Gregor> elliott: Haven't even mention--there ya go.
23:17:08 <elliott> Gregor: PUT THE BABY IN IT
23:17:21 <elliott> Gregor: And power it with # Diet Cherry Vanilla Orange Grape Lemon Lime Mint Roast Chicken Mayonnaise and Cola Dr. Pepper.
23:17:31 <Gregor> Nice copy-paste there :P
23:17:33 <elliott> Gregor: Also store configuration files in RXML. Somehow.
23:17:38 <elliott> Gregor: And kill yourself.
23:17:49 <elliott> Also put the computer inside a PVC instrument-computer-case hyrbid.
23:17:55 <elliott> And thus ends my enumeration of codu.org's contents.
23:18:08 <zzo38> What does RXML means?
23:18:15 <elliott> zzo38: you don't want to know :P
23:18:25 <Gregor> zzo38: http://codu.org/rxml.php
23:18:26 <Gregor> Sgeo: http://codu.org/rxml.php
23:18:53 <elliott> Gregor: http://codu.org/rxml.php
23:19:34 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/porno/
23:19:49 <elliott> Gregor: At least make it 403 :P
23:19:49 <Sgeo> I don't get the x=1 y=1 in the layer
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23:20:00 <elliott> Sgeo: presumably you can move layers around or something
23:20:06 <zzo38> Make it 907 so that you can confuse you
23:20:21 <elliott> I confuse me all the time with invalid HTTP response codes.
23:21:06 <Sgeo> Config files in RXML: Picture of text in MS Comic Sans
23:21:59 <elliott> Gregor: for once i support Sgeo's idea, make it do that.
23:22:19 <elliott> Gregor: did i mention that you should have to play ZEE to find the server address?
23:23:02 <elliott> Gregor: And, um, I give up :P
23:23:34 <elliott> Gregor: How did you carbonate your beverages again? I'm just stalking all of codu now/
23:24:02 <elliott> [[# 1 Tbsp "imitation vanilla flavoring" (those using real vanilla extract will naturally need much less)]]
23:24:07 <elliott> No they won't, you can never have too much vanilla.
23:24:29 <zzo38> elliott: No, it will just make it optionally, I guess.
23:25:08 * Sgeo fails o comprehend zzo38's statement
23:25:12 <pikhq> elliott: ♥ vanilla.
23:25:28 <pikhq> Best alcoholic beverage ever. :P
23:25:39 <elliott> pikhq: getting intoxicated on vanilla would be the best thing ever
23:25:43 <elliott> pikhq: have you ever tasted pure vanilla extract?
23:29:31 <Sgeo> It's alcoholic?
23:30:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: Alcohol is the solvent used for the extract.
23:30:00 <elliott> Gregor: "Subtlty" is not a word; comic 54.
23:30:38 <pikhq> elliott: There's been at least one DUI from drinking vanilla.
23:31:01 <elliott> pikhq: this knowledge is my favourite knowledge
23:31:44 <Sgeo> Even more than the knowledge that just because someone said "You are now breathing manually", doesn't mean that when you forget, you are going to die?
23:33:03 <Sgeo> Hmm. I want to try vanilla extract now, but I don't want the alcohol
23:33:57 <Sgeo> What would happen if I tried vanilla powder?
23:34:25 <zzo38> Sgeo: You would be explosive; that is, assuming that you tried explosive vanilla powder!
23:35:56 <Vorpal> Sgeo, try in what sense?
23:36:09 <Sgeo> The same sense of drinking vanilla extract
23:36:20 <Vorpal> Sgeo, but isn't that a powder?
23:36:31 <elliott> Sgeo: i don't think you quite understand alcohol
23:36:32 <Vorpal> Sgeo, of tiny black dots
23:36:32 <Sgeo> Why can't I put a powder on my tongue
23:36:37 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't think you quite understand vanilla essence
23:36:49 <Vorpal> elliott, vanilla as in the thing you use for icecream?
23:36:56 <elliott> Vorpal: I missed that Sgeo said powder
23:37:04 <Vorpal> elliott, how is alcohol involved in this?
23:37:06 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> Hmm. I want to try vanilla extract now, but I don't want the alcohol
23:37:14 <elliott> Vorpal: <pikhq> Sgeo: Alcohol is the solvent used for the extract.
23:37:25 <elliott> Vorpal: vanilla essence is vanilla-flavoured alcohol :P but Sgeo worrying about the alcohol from it = LOL
23:37:36 <HackEgo> 264|<Sgeo> Hmm. I want to try vanilla extract now, but I don't want the alcohol
23:37:37 <elliott> good luck drinking enough to have any effect on anything... at all
23:38:03 <Vorpal> elliott, but the powder is just crunched vanilla iirc?
23:38:14 <Sgeo> <pikhq> elliott: There's been at least one DUI from drinking vanilla.
23:38:21 <elliott> Sgeo: That person ingested a whole tank of vanilla :P
23:38:28 <elliott> Have you SEEN how tiny the bottles are?
23:38:38 <elliott> Sgeo: Also, the taste is VERY strong. Drinking a teaspoon would be difficult.
23:38:41 <Vorpal> elliott, but actually using fresh vanilla pods for your icecream tastes way better
23:38:45 <pikhq> elliott: You can get very large bottles of it.
23:38:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I had that once or twice
23:38:47 <elliott> One or two drops gives a very strong taste.
23:38:50 <elliott> pikhq: well right but why would you want to
23:38:55 <Vorpal> I mean, it can't be compared to the usual icecream
23:39:00 <elliott> pikhq: it's not like you'll ever use it up ever :P
23:39:06 <pikhq> elliott: My mom bought a couple once. A few years back.
23:39:20 <pikhq> Thankfully, it's very good vanilla.
23:39:32 <elliott> pikhq: What you need to be able to buy gallons of: MAPLE SYRUP.
23:39:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, that is like cayenne pepper. You buy it once every 10/20 years and it lasts forever.
23:39:42 <elliott> pikhq: It is SO EXPENSIVE ;_; so you should just be able to buy it in bulk and keep it forever
23:39:49 <elliott> pikhq: US probably has it ok, you're close to canada
23:39:53 <elliott> Canada obviously has it in abundance
23:39:56 <elliott> but in the UK it costs tons
23:40:00 <pikhq> Vorpal: You haven't seen my consumption of spice.
23:40:05 <Vorpal> elliott, it is quite expensive yes
23:40:10 <pikhq> elliott: The US also manufactures maple syrup.
23:40:28 <elliott> pikhq: yes but if you could buy "Canadian Maple Syrup" with a maple leaf on it or "American Maple Syrup" with the star-spangled banner
23:40:31 <elliott> pikhq: tell me honestly now
23:40:34 <elliott> pikhq: which would you buy
23:40:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, I believe the glass bottle with cayenne downstairs is from the early 1970s, though mostly empty now
23:41:11 <Sgeo> large metal new strainers > small plastic disgusting strainers
23:41:16 <pikhq> elliott: Depends on where in the US.
23:41:24 <elliott> pikhq: STAR SPANGLED BANNER
23:41:33 <elliott> Sgeo: are you going to try vanilla essence or are you drunk enough already
23:41:43 <Vorpal> elliott, btw made a bunker myself.
23:43:06 <Sgeo> I can imagine using a drop of vanilla every half hour :/
23:43:38 <elliott> Sgeo: You might become dependent.
23:43:58 <Sgeo> Can't tell if you're serious, but if you are, maybe I should stay away
23:45:38 <elliott> Sgeo: Dude, you are crazy.
23:45:40 <elliott> pikhq: Tell him he's crazy.
23:45:45 <elliott> pikhq: Tell him how difficult it would be to get drunk.
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23:46:10 <Sgeo> Hypothetically, would there be a problem with just trying the powder?
23:46:18 <elliott> Sgeo: It would taste like... powder.
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23:53:21 <elliott> pikhq: what is the secret of specialisation
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23:56:20 <zzo38> Do you have an idea of how the computation class would vary by doing [1] a variant of FlooP with a REDPROGRAM command added, [2] a variant of BlooP with a REDPROGRAM command added?
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00:05:55 <Sgeo> One and one still is one
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00:08:23 <elliott> oklopol: can i just say that sevenfold.mid is the best thing ever
00:09:16 <zzo38> elliott: REDPROGRAM is a function taking two parameters, one is the index number to a FlooP program and the other is its parameter. An ordering is applied to FlooP programs (a turing-complete programming language).
00:10:17 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/dpGbh.png MY EYES
00:10:22 <zzo38> Each program takes one natural number as input and its output is one natural number. That is the GREENPROGRAM command. Remove all programs from the list that do not halt for all values of input, and then make the numbering consecutive again, that is REDPROGRAM.
00:10:57 <Sgeo> elliott, linky?
00:11:03 <zzo38> elliott: Now do you understand what REDPROGRAM is?
00:11:06 <elliott> Sgeo: http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/music/sevenfold.mid. it gets better
00:11:52 <Sgeo> my browser is being a bitch
00:12:41 <Sgeo> elliott, is that Clojure?
00:13:00 <Sgeo> Why ow your eyes?
00:14:01 * Sgeo goes to a data: URI rather than bothering with wget
00:14:16 <Sgeo> Or, my browser just downloads the file anyway, so nevermind
00:16:05 <elliott> * Sgeo goes to a data: URI rather than bothering with wget <-- what?
00:17:07 <Sgeo> There were maybe a few seconds of pleasant sound
00:17:38 <Sgeo> I mean, there are good parts
00:17:43 <Sgeo> And then EAR HORROR
00:17:45 <Sgeo> Another good part
00:18:53 <Sgeo> I think this is oklopol's answer to my singing
00:19:57 <elliott> try http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/music/etudes/All-as-midi.rar then :P
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00:34:02 <elliott> pikhq: can you develop @ for me please thanks bye
00:34:50 <elliott> pikhq: or at least half of it
00:36:31 <zzo38> Can you make a DVI driver to control a old-fashion printing press?
00:47:58 * Sgeo would love to develop @
00:48:12 <Sgeo> Except I don't even have an idea of what it's supposed to be like
00:48:14 <Gregor> zzo38: Doesn't DVI have font embedding and such? If so, no.
00:48:21 <elliott> Sgeo: have you ever coded actual haskell
00:48:26 <elliott> Gregor: one of it's many flaws
00:48:30 <Sgeo> elliott, "actual"?
00:48:37 <Sgeo> I made a BF interpreter once
00:48:39 <elliott> Sgeo: as in not just a goldilock's joke
00:48:40 <zzo38> Gregor: DVI has no font embedding.
00:48:46 <elliott> *everything is aid, fix the grammar and all
00:50:20 <elliott> Sgeo: have you ever coded in any non-haskell functional language
00:50:41 <Sgeo> I don't think so
00:50:51 <Sgeo> I read about Erlang a while ago, but never coded in it
00:50:55 <zzo38> But it is possible to include fonts in separate files, but you should compile the fonts separately for each printer because they have different resolutions and so on.
00:51:27 <zzo38> One font format is GF format; you can see my program GF-Magick for an example of parsing GF files.
00:51:47 <Sgeo> elliott, what language is @ in?
00:52:26 <zzo38> I think it is in @
00:52:32 <elliott> Sgeo: it is heavy in type theory.
00:53:05 <elliott> Sgeo: try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuitionistic_type_theory. except it's not quite like that. but that's basically a prerequisite to being able to understand any of this.
00:54:03 <elliott> Sgeo: also good to have an understanding of: type systems, specialisers, FRP, HCI, x86-64
00:54:28 <Sgeo> So maybe I'll stay away then
00:54:35 <Sgeo> I would love to learn all that stuff though
00:54:55 <elliott> it's not that hard, dunno why i said type systems there since that S type theory
00:55:08 <elliott> type theory is just functional programming one level higher. and a bit of logic.
00:55:14 <elliott> specialisers are not complicated at all, just hard to implement
00:55:18 <elliott> FRP is simpler than imperative IO
00:55:24 <elliott> HCI is not really necessary to know
00:55:29 <Sgeo> " whose result type may vary on their input"
00:55:36 <elliott> x86-64 is just some wiki pages to understand.
00:56:04 <Sgeo> So you could have division that's Integer if the result is an integer, Double if the result isn't?
00:56:15 <Sgeo> Or am I totally misunderstanding?
00:56:16 <elliott> Sgeo: um. sort of. doing that would get you a slap and i'd never talk to you again.
00:56:23 <elliott> Sgeo: it's all compile-time
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00:56:48 <Sgeo> So what does the result type vary on?
00:57:14 <Sgeo> The types of the input? That doesn't make much sense
00:57:40 <Sgeo> Well, more sense than the division thing, ad
00:58:47 <elliott> Sgeo: the functional type (A -> B) is replaced by a type (x:A) -> B, where B can include mention of x.
00:59:04 <elliott> also, types become values in the value language, too, so you can do "foo = Integer"
00:59:17 <elliott> ((x:A) -> B) happens to be the same as (forall x in A : B) in intuitionistic logic.
00:59:20 <Sgeo> So no data Hey = Hey | What
00:59:39 <Sgeo> Me, seeing a consequence of what you just said... or not
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00:59:53 <elliott> Sgeo: how is that a consequence
01:00:18 <Sgeo> foo = Hey is foo of type Hey or whatever type can hold types?
01:00:23 <Sgeo> Two different Heys
01:00:56 <elliott> in Coq one would call the constructors "hey" and "what" instead, the uppercase constructor names make little sense
01:02:02 <elliott> learn Coq, that's the easiest way to learn most of htis stuff.
01:02:47 <Sgeo> I'm almost reluctant to learn a non-general-purposeish language
01:02:51 <Sgeo> I don't know why
01:03:03 <Sgeo> I think it's because if I can't imagine it ruling the world one day...
01:03:11 <Sgeo> I think I'll force myself
01:03:16 <elliott> coq is sort of general purpose
01:03:26 <elliott> Sgeo: also, you care way too much about ego, status, authority, popularity.
01:03:37 <Sgeo> I object to "authority"!
01:04:27 <Sgeo> And I care about popularity not in "It's only worthwhile if it's popular" but as in "This is an awesome language. It deserves to be more popular"
01:04:49 <elliott> Sgeo: mhm. yet you went on about debian not being "usable"
01:05:12 <elliott> Sgeo: http://adam.chlipala.net/cpdt/ is an online book on coq.
01:05:24 <elliott> just google anything you don't understand
01:05:35 <elliott> it's not the best book on coq since it's meant for a specific use of it, but it's close enough
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01:06:01 <Sgeo> So why would elliott link me to something that's not the best book?
01:06:17 * Sgeo tries it anyway
01:06:28 <Sgeo> I always love multiple viewpoints and tutorials
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02:36:09 <Goosey> http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/computational_linguists.png
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02:40:23 <Sgeo> Goosey, a number of people here dislike XKCD
02:40:27 <Sgeo> I am not one of them, but
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03:11:35 <oklopol> Gregor: you haven't done anything that awesome recently, why is that?
03:13:07 <Sgeo> When was the last time I did anything awesome?
03:15:45 <Gregor> oklopol: I have two papers submitted for review, one coming up to be submitted for review in a month, and one Super-Sekrit™ project I can't tell you about. Also there's http://js.codu.org/ and WebSplat.
03:16:29 <Sgeo> Will the Super-Sekrit project ever cease to be Super-Sekrit?
03:16:50 <Gregor> Sgeo: Iff the first of the papers submitted for review is accepted.
03:17:06 <Sgeo> Also: Is it larger than a breadbox?
03:17:15 <Gregor> It is more abstract than a breadbox.
03:18:30 <Sgeo> So basically, it's not larger than a breadbox, smaller than a breadbox, the same size as a breadbox, or a breadbox.
03:18:36 <Sgeo> It must be an anti-breadbox.
03:18:48 <oklopol> "<elliott> oklopol: can i just say that sevenfold.mid is the best thing ever" <<< at this gathering, i actually tried to make something as horrible as possible, but failed because it turned out awesome
03:19:04 <Sgeo> oklopol, I compared it with my singing
03:19:11 <Sgeo> But there were good parts
03:19:26 <Sgeo> (to sevenfold.mid, not my singing)
03:21:06 <oklopol> "<Sgeo> When was the last time I did anything awesome?" <<< i don't remember
03:21:35 <oklopol> Gregor: well those are all somewhat awesome things, but what have you done for ME?
03:21:50 <oklopol> what were the papers about, or were they so stupid you don't wanna tell?
03:21:56 <Gregor> oklopol: All that porn I scp you on a crontab every night :P
03:22:32 <oklopol> yeah but you set that up ages ago, spending a couple hours a day to search that stuff manually is just part of that awesomeness of the past.
03:22:45 <Gregor> oklopol: And the papers are being anonymously reviewed, so I shouldn't mention them in a publicly-logged channel.
03:22:56 <Gregor> For that matter I shouldn't make jokes about producing tons of porn every night, but *eh*
03:24:12 <oklopol> Sgeo: your singing was interesting to listen to
03:24:28 <Gregor> oklopol: The paper submitted to PLDI is about programming language design and/or implementation, and the paper submitted to S&P is about security and/or privacy.
03:24:35 <oklopol> if you actually know how to sing, that was impressive, at least
03:25:14 <oklopol> i look forward to reading everything you ever publish
03:26:10 <Gregor> oklopol: Have you read the 2.5 papers I've already published? :P
03:26:11 <oklopol> i try to do that with everyone i know even a little bit, i make the exception of professors with more than 200 publications tho
03:26:33 <oklopol> so actually i should read oerjan's phd at some point
03:26:34 <Gregor> WELL THEN THAT IS WHY YOU WILL FAIL.
03:26:56 <oklopol> well you know i'll life for quite a while after you're gone so i'm not in a hurry
03:27:26 <Gregor> oklopol: But I'm already an eternal energy being no the Higher Level.
03:28:13 <oklopol> also i didn't even realize the 0.5, what could that possibly mean?
03:28:29 <Gregor> It's a workshop paper, plus it's subsumed into a later conference paper.
03:28:34 <Gregor> So, y'know, half a publication.
03:28:57 <oklopol> what was your current degree and age?
03:29:13 <Gregor> Bachelors+masters-equivalent and 24
03:31:30 <oklopol> what's dynamic behavior? :)
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03:33:16 <Gregor> oklopol: By example: If I go running around my apartment naked at 2AM while screaming communist propaganda, that would be dynamic behavior.
03:36:25 <Gregor> Well, just take that example, abstract away me and the apartment, and consider it in the context of JavaScript.
03:36:59 <oklopol> so like just... what happens when a program is run? :P
03:37:14 <oklopol> or was 2am / communist propaganda also meaninful
03:37:29 <Gregor> Those are both relevant.
03:37:53 <oklopol> 2am would probably just be what happens when, but communist propaganda...
03:39:12 <Gregor> You'll just have to read the paper.
03:39:54 <Gregor> Can't wait ... to read the paper that's already published?
03:40:10 <oklopol> because i should be reading ergodic theory
03:40:16 <zzo38> Did you know? I have once written a program similar to WEB, but it was GWBASIC instead of Pascal, and ESC/P instead of TeX; there were a few other differences as well. I no longer have that program.
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03:44:17 <oklopol> i did read the abstract, and i have to say it sounds pretty mundane, compared to all my... wait nm
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04:35:19 <zzo38> Hofstadter made many kinds of wordplays working together. The Dialogue titled "Contracrostipunctus", the lines alternate between Achilles and the Tortoise, but the first letter or punctuation in each line spells out "Hofstadter's Contracrostipunctus Acrostically Backwards Spells J.s.bach"
04:35:44 <zzo38> (All letters are actually capitalized; I put the capitalized letters corresponding to the ones typed in a larger font in the book.)
04:37:17 <zzo38> "In the unlikely event that a dialogician should write a contrapuntal acrostic in homage to J. S. Bach, do you suppose it would be more proper for him to acrostically embed his own name-- or that of Bach?" The answer is, embed both names.
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04:43:40 <Goosey> I had an idea for memfuck
04:44:51 <Goosey> [ ] can be a while, if, and other types of flow directors based on the second value in the current cell's stack.
04:46:50 <zzo38> Goosey: You can then add that idea to the article?
04:47:03 <Goosey> I'm reformatting it too
04:47:15 <Goosey> And I'll start on an interpreter some time this week
04:50:40 <Goosey> I don't think I should do it with a value
04:50:57 <Goosey> maybe I should have some sort of flags that can be set :/
04:52:01 <zzo38> Do it in any way you prefer to design it; in esoteric programming it does not matter that much.
04:53:48 <Goosey> fuck it, new commands for definable flow directors
04:53:58 <Goosey> just gonna make these ones more complex
04:54:46 <zzo38> What are you going to write the interpreter with? Java? Forth? C? Enhanced CWEB? Or maybe even with other esolangs?
04:55:48 <zzo38> It doesn't matter too much, because you can write it using what you want to write it with. And then possibly someone else can write another interpreter (which is also sometimes done with esolang).
04:58:46 <zzo38> But I like to use Enhanced CWEB to write programs (which should work with any C compiler supporting #line)
04:58:59 <Goosey> its amazing how much more crazy it got
04:59:50 <Goosey> I'll have it check the memory stack
05:00:46 <zzo38> Goosey: You can design memfuck to be the amount of crazy you prefer. There are many different esolangs, including some which are not computable, even.
05:03:40 <Goosey> currently +[+++\++>\+] will leave 4 in [0], 2 in [1], 1 in [M]. the ] will be discounted while [M] contains 1.
05:04:19 <zzo38> Well, just see which way works best for you according to whatever goals you want, such as turing-complete, and so on.
05:04:24 <Goosey> scratch, it should be +\[
05:04:54 <Goosey> Oh I'm getting more confused than in brainfuck xD
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05:26:01 <oerjan> <zzo38> Is the longest day of the year, when we have to switch off daylight saving time?
05:27:56 <oerjan> i was going to say something about amount of daylight varying by much more than 1 hour in norway, then i realized that's not what you meant
05:28:43 <oerjan> so you're presumably right
05:29:09 <pikhq> DST is such bullshit.
05:29:25 <pikhq> Not to mention *completely and utterly backwards* even for its intended goals.
05:29:39 <Goosey> I almost confused the hell out of myself xD
05:29:56 <pikhq> If it wanted to give people more suntime in the evening, it should be DST during the *winter*, not the summer.
05:30:02 <pikhq> There's plenty of sun to go around in the summer!
05:30:40 <pikhq> Of course, even then it'd be pretty stupid.
05:31:06 <coppro> I don't quite understand it myself
05:31:13 <coppro> but I am led to believe it has a rationale
05:31:57 <pikhq> coppro: An ignorant one, based around the idea that it's better to have more suntime in the evening during the summer.
05:32:01 <oerjan> well i think how well it works depends on both work hours and latitude. at least in norway the difference is quite noticable when we change.
05:33:33 <oerjan> i'd expect it to make most difference around the time it changes (spring and autumn). as you imply in the winter it's dark anyhow, and in the summer light.
05:34:52 <pikhq> I'd imagine the effects would be a bit more noticable depending on how far off from solar time your de jure time zone is.
05:35:09 <oerjan> of course the time is _not_ really adapted to latitude, afaik both the usa and europe change at a common day (different between them though)
05:35:25 <coppro> pikhq: I think I need to find papers on it
05:35:40 <coppro> but I thought it was rooted out of agricultural tradition?
05:35:46 <pikhq> (poor bastards in western China, living in ideal UTC+5 but de jure UTC+8)
05:36:00 <pikhq> coppro: No, it was invented in 1895.
05:36:20 <oerjan> i vaguely recall some of the rationale had to do with energy saving. and also that agriculture is utterly irrelevant because farmers have to follow actual daylight regardless
05:36:38 <pikhq> coppro: It's actually contrary to agricultural tradition — the chickens and cows don't care what time it is, they care when the sun rises.
05:36:49 <zzo38> I do not like daylight saving time at all, either.
05:37:24 <coppro> I do recall energy saving stuff
05:37:38 <pikhq> oerjan: It's been shown to be a negligible electric saving nowadays.
05:39:06 <zzo38> Even if DST does save energy, I think DST is not the correct way to do it. The way I think it should be done, is, whatever time is sunrise is called the first hour of the day, which might be eight o'clock on one day and nine o'clock on another day, and so on.
05:39:38 <pikhq> Also, I really hate having sunset at 21:00.
05:40:04 <oerjan> zzo38: except our clocks would need a redesign for that
05:40:35 <Goosey> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Memfuck
05:41:13 <oerjan> yeah i'm not saying it would be impossible, just that we'd have to change clocks to something that adapts to time of year (and latitude too)
05:41:36 <oerjan> reasonably easy with an electronic clock
05:41:48 <pikhq> Alternately, we could just make time sane.
05:41:54 <zzo38> oerjan: No, no need to change the clock.
05:42:25 <pikhq> Time zones are an integer UTC offset, derived from which meridian you're closest to.
05:42:26 <zzo38> In the idea I said, you would still have eight o'clock and nine o'clock and everything else like you have now. However, there would also be a secondary measurement of time that starts at sunrise each day.
05:43:19 <Sgeo> Why don't we just use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatch_Internet_Time
05:43:33 <pikhq> And no more fucking UTC+9.5
05:43:42 <oerjan> zzo38: um it would be wholly impractical in a modern day if people didn't have clocks that could keep track of it. as well as that it would be impractical to keep track of two different measurements, although i think some religious people (monks, maybe jews?) do that anyway.
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05:44:30 <zzo38> So, you can say "half past seven" and "the first hour of the day" and so on.
05:44:45 <pikhq> Oh, and the international date line is to be on the 180° meridian. Period.
05:44:59 <zzo38> pikhq: Are there any banks on the date line?
05:45:16 <oerjan> pikhq: so ignoring political boundaries? yeah that sounds _really_ practical >:D
05:45:36 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, ignore political boundaries entirely!
05:46:05 <pikhq> oerjan: If we don't, we get insanity like de jure UTC+8 in UTC+5!
05:46:22 <oerjan> i think only china is _quite_ that extreme, no?
05:46:43 <pikhq> True. But there's a lot of places with silly time zones regardless.
05:47:17 <pikhq> For instance, Russia's UTC+8, UTC+9, UTC+10, and UTC+11 do not contain the meridians for each.
05:47:21 <zzo38> I have idea different notations. For twelve-hour clocks, use roman numerals as in "IV::30" and for twenty-four-hour clocks, use digits as in "16:30" and for time counted from sunrise, use notations such as "1st /" and "3rd 1/4" and so on.
05:47:28 <oerjan> and i'm not sure it's actually a problem in china, they could still have slightly different work hours in different parts of the country if they wanted, in fact it's only a one-time adjustment unlike DST...
05:47:29 <pikhq> Oh, nor does their UTC+4.
05:47:45 <coppro> pikhq: What if the divide runs directly through a city?
05:47:54 <oerjan> assuming without evidence that they would be sane about that, though
05:48:59 <oklopol> zzo38: do you like seconds? i always thought they were WAY too short
05:49:08 <zzo38> (Where "1st /" means the start of the first hour of the day, and "3rd 1/4" means one quarter hour after the beginning of the third hour of the day.)
05:49:37 <zzo38> oklopol: Whether or not you use seconds depends what you are doing. I do like to use clocks with the second hand.
05:49:43 <oerjan> pikhq: i read recently that turkey is planning to change to a +1/2 time zone. on the bright side they would simultaneously abolish DST.
05:50:05 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, and the US's UTC-9 doesn't have the UTC-9 meridian either. Though it does have the UTC-10 and UTC-11 meridians.
05:50:45 <zzo38> Do you like my three kind of notations? Do you have other opininions of differences you think of?
05:50:48 <pikhq> And US UTC-10 has the UTC-10, UTC-11, UTC-12/UTC+12 meridians.
05:51:57 <oklopol> zzo38: minutes are way too long for the "short tick"
05:52:14 <oerjan> oklopol: a second is somewhat around the length of a heartbeat i think, isn't that nice?
05:52:42 <zzo38> oklopol: I don't think so. I think you can use seconds as well if you need it.
05:53:45 <zzo38> (The double colon is delibate.)
05:53:57 <zzo38> s/delibate/deliberate/
05:54:22 <oklopol> i have to end this deberate now, since my bus leaves in 15 min
05:54:51 <oklopol> but there's this one application of the martingale convergence theorem which i didn't really get, but the lecturer thought was really cool and sexy :(
05:55:21 * oerjan thought oklopol was saying the lecturer was really cool and sexy
05:55:38 <oerjan> which could indeed be distracting
05:56:22 <Sgeo> Why do fractional time zones exist?
05:57:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: Because somebody hates libc developers.
05:57:03 <oklopol> the theorem: stationary measure on shift space, then -1/n * p(x_0, ..., x_(n-1)) ---> entropy almost everywhere
05:57:35 <oklopol> if p is just a product measure, then you can apply birkhoff directly
05:57:46 <pikhq> Or, indeed, sanity.
05:58:02 * oerjan assumes he knew that theorem at one time
05:58:21 <oklopol> but in the general case, you will have something of the birkhoff form, but the function slightly changes each time n increases
05:58:30 <oklopol> and turns out it's a martingale
05:58:42 <zzo38> Fractional timezone exist because the sun and Earth is exist, and there is many more countries in the world.
05:58:55 <pikhq> The +x.75 ones are the most cruel.
05:59:16 <pikhq> Though there were ones with crazier offsets in the past.
05:59:26 <pikhq> For instance, UTC+4:51 once existed.
06:00:05 <pikhq> As did UTC-0:44...
06:00:07 <oklopol> oerjan: martingale convergence is just that if you have an increasing sequence of sigma algebras converging to S, and you integrate a function on each of those algebras, the integrals converge to the integral of f over S
06:00:52 <oerjan> oklopol: i certainly used to know that :) in fact i think i've mentioned it in one of our discussions.
06:01:27 <oklopol> birkhoff is, as you probably know, in the most useful case, that we can define the time average function f* for each f, which simply takes the orbit of a point and averages f(T^j x)'s, and it turns out it has all kinds of fun properties and is shift invariant ofc
06:01:39 <oerjan> oklopol: you (mathematically) grow up so fast :(
06:01:59 <zzo38> Do you know how I can make a code in Gforth doing something in between each line of the source file?
06:02:01 <oklopol> nah i don't actually understand any of this, i just memorize a bunch of shit
06:02:11 <Sgeo> It's 1AM, I have to be up at 7AM, and I have a play I was supposed to read over the break that I didn't
06:02:42 <oerjan> my memory of birkhoff is exceedingly vague
06:02:57 <oklopol> anyway the martingale theorem is pretty easy to prove, birkhoff on the other hand takes quite a lot of paper
06:03:06 <oklopol> i'll rant about it later today
06:03:44 <oerjan> Sgeo: it's hard being the pope i guess
06:04:13 <Sgeo> Maybe I should RTFR
06:04:37 <Sgeo> Not before I RTFP though
06:06:17 <zzo38> O, I found it, I found the LINE-END-HOOK
06:07:37 <Vorpal> oerjan, not like you :P
06:08:14 <oerjan> i have an appointment today, so i had to make an effort to wake up at an approximately normal time
06:08:55 <oerjan> also that _does_ happen occasionally purely by chance
06:09:20 <Vorpal> oerjan, so does everything with an element of randomness
06:10:47 <Vorpal> oerjan, I mean, if you cat /dev/random, sooner or later you will get the complete works of Shakespeare
06:11:45 <oerjan> if you manage to avoid the heat death of the universe
06:13:25 <Vorpal> $ grep "To be" /dev/urandom
06:13:29 <Vorpal> Binary file /dev/urandom matches
06:13:36 <Vorpal> (this took about a minute)
06:14:53 <Vorpal> oerjan, anyway getting the set of letters in those same works should be way quicker
06:15:14 <oerjan> interestingly, if you had a library of all possible text files arranged alphabetically, _finding_ anything interesting in it would be as hard as inventing it yourself
06:15:52 <oerjan> *text files of a certain length
06:16:26 <oerjan> and catting /dev/random is even worse, since you cannot even do binary search
06:17:17 <Sgeo> What about a library of all text files that contain only grammatical, sensical statements?
06:17:22 <Vorpal> oerjan, the work "b" would be infinitely far away unless you sort by length first
06:17:34 <Vorpal> oerjan, since every work starting with a would come before that
06:17:41 <Vorpal> and there would be infinitely many
06:17:54 <oerjan> Sgeo: unless "sensical" involves a good AI you would still have to do the main part of the work yourself
06:18:07 <Vorpal> and what does sensical mean here?
06:18:25 <Sgeo> I was trying to avoid "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously" I think
06:18:29 <Vorpal> this spell checker doesn't accept "sensical"
06:18:39 <Sgeo> As opposed to nonsensical
06:18:42 <oerjan> and also if only single statements were sensical it would still be hard to find a coherent whole
06:18:51 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you know that there *are* works like that right?
06:19:42 <oerjan> Vorpal: i corrected to "of a certain length", also i was sort of assuming travel time wasn't an issue
06:21:21 <oerjan> Sgeo: i tried to think of a sensical meaning for that sentence once, my interpretation was of a particular boring politician from an environmental party falling asleep in parliament
06:21:44 <oerjan> boring and bored, presumably
06:21:57 <Sgeo> So why was he sleeping furiously?
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06:22:08 <oerjan> presumably he was very tired
06:22:29 <oerjan> probably snoring loudly
06:23:18 <oerjan> having bad dreams maybe
06:24:10 <Sgeo> I'm not going to be coherent tomorrow. Fortunatly, my plans for this week don't consider tomorrow to be particularly significant
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06:48:20 <Sgeo> Ok, need to put the compter down now
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06:49:17 <Sgeo> It suddenly occurs to me that I will have plenty of time on my way to school to read
06:50:48 <Sgeo> And even when I arrive, there's still about an hour before my first class
06:50:59 <Sgeo> And my first class is Perl, so I'll have some time then
06:51:07 <Sgeo> Class right after that is the one
06:52:16 <oerjan> procrastinate early, procrastinate often
06:52:37 <Sgeo> I'm even procrastinating sleep!
06:54:21 * oerjan found a poem googling that http://theblogofjen.blogspot.com/2005/12/you-and-me-and-monkey-makes-three-dont.html
06:54:32 <oerjan> and that was in fact the _only_ hit
06:55:35 <Sgeo> When my mom used to sing to me before I went to bed, there was one song that I'd try to delay
06:55:43 <Sgeo> So that I had more time before I had to go to sleep
06:55:54 <Sgeo> I think this is weird to be talking about
06:57:18 <oerjan> this is a weird channel
06:57:29 <oerjan> or so i think, given that i'm not on any others
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11:31:29 <ais523> he did quite a lot to Agora
11:31:44 <ais523> I'm not sure what in particular you're referring to
11:31:59 <Phantom_Hoover> The one about noöne knowing what any of the rules meant.
11:32:13 <ais523> hmm, that seems unusual
11:32:19 <ais523> most of the time, most of the players know what most of the rules mean
11:32:44 <ais523> recently, he managed to send a message that was ambiguous in a rather 50-50 way
11:33:43 <ais523> and it took ages to decide whether it worked or not
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12:02:32 <elliott> 00:00:12 <Gregor> I don't think I have one, but I think I have a picture sufficiently revealing of the relevant characteristic.
12:03:20 <elliott> 00:09:04 <Gregor> We should transcend beyond these physical shackles of bodies and exist as beings of pure energy.
12:03:24 <elliott> 00:09:37 <oklopol> when's the first mass suicide meeting of #esoteric
12:03:59 <elliott> 00:24:01 <Sgeo> Why am I a pope?
12:03:59 <elliott> 00:33:29 <augur> Sgeo: because some cardinals got together in a room and voted.
12:04:15 <elliott> everyone was there, from aleph null to beth null (although they /might/ have been the same person, we're not sure)
12:05:24 <elliott> 04:52:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm going to assume that Fine Structure either isn't finished or that it ends rather abruptly.
12:05:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it is finished, but that was before you realised you missed stuff :)
12:05:55 <elliott> 17:06:01 <Sgeo> So why would elliott link me to something that's not the best book?
12:05:56 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, actually, \aleph_0 and \beth_0 are equal IIRC.
12:06:03 <elliott> Sgeo: there is no best book -- well, not at your experience level at least
12:06:18 <Phantom_Hoover> It's aleph and beth 1 upwards that are the subject of the continuum hypothesis.
12:06:22 <elliott> Sgeo: but that book is both free and a good introduction, it's just focused on formally proving programs rather than the other stuff coq can do, but it covers that as part of its path
12:06:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: because \beth_0 = \aleph_0 by definition
12:06:48 <elliott> and then \beth_{n+1} = 2^{\beth_n}
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12:07:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Not entirely sure about what the succession rule for the aleph numbers is, though.
12:08:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I /think/ \aleph_{n+1} is just the next largest cardinal from \aleph_n, and there's no definition on what that actually /is/.
12:08:37 <elliott> Heh, 4chan's source code has supposedly been leaked.
12:08:39 <elliott> http://pastebin.com/4JVjS02b
12:09:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That is correct.
12:09:49 <elliott> $cmd = "nohup /usr/local/bin/suid_run_global bin/appendban $board $ip >/dev/null 2>&1 &";
12:09:54 <elliott> /usr/local/bin/suid_run_global
12:10:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, it was started by a 15-year-old; what did you expect?
12:10:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: *13-year-old
12:11:08 <elliott> Besides, he didn't code the software AFAIK; I forget who did.
12:11:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: suid = setuid; "run this program as its owner whoever executes it", usually root, used for commands that access root-only files but that anyone can use.
12:11:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In this case, it's probably coded to allow any shell script or whatever in the bin/ directory to execute as root.
12:11:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Now imagine if someone manages to replace the contents of bin/appendban to do rm -rf /.
12:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, they were willing to work for a 13-year-old, so they can't have been very competent.
12:11:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And runs /usr/local/bin/suid_run_global bin/appendban
12:12:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Work"? Dude, it was just a thread on the Something Awful forums and a domain name.
12:12:19 <elliott> They started off with a hack translation of the 2chan board software IIRC.
12:12:29 <elliott> Indeed: "It's based on the old Japanese futaba.php, which was a rotten mess to start with, and has mostly been tweaked and patched up from that, I understand. It's no wonder it's still a mess."
12:12:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Nobody knew he was 13 either...
12:13:00 <elliott> http://www.2chan.net/script/
12:13:04 <elliott> google result pointing tot he actual script: http://www.2chan.net/h/futaba.php.txt
12:13:14 <elliott> so 4chan is basically an extended hack of an old version of that :P
12:13:28 <elliott> echo "<META HTTP-EQUIV=\"refresh\" content=\"0;URL=".PHP_SELF2."\">";
12:13:35 <elliott> gotta love how those \s show as the yen sign
12:25:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, come and see the work on the ROU!
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12:26:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wanna help me diagnose a VGA MEMORY PROBLEM?!
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13:16:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But it's BIOS
13:23:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Did I mention that I don't know how the BIOS works either?
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13:52:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You disconnected momentarily :P
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13:56:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You can make one.
13:56:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Go to our mine. Look in my chest. There is some diamond in the rightmost column.
13:56:40 <elliott> (The diamond left of that is mine, don't touch it. But the rightmost you can take whatever, it's my non-coal mining spoils. I gather you have enough coal.)
13:57:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How did it get there?
13:57:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I mean at the bottom of the sea.
13:58:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Fell from the ROU, died, stuff was scattered to the 4 winds.
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14:01:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 4 winds, 7 seas.
14:01:47 <fizzie> "7 seas, 4 winds" is not all *that* different from your "4 winds, 7 seas".
14:02:38 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> 7 seas, 4 winds, surely?
14:02:38 <elliott> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: 4 winds, 7 seas.
14:02:41 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> ...That's what I just said.
14:02:53 <elliott> also what is it with everyone wanting fizzie to look at stuff
14:03:13 <fizzie> I'm at work, I can't be all aROUnd the ROU right now.
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14:22:47 <elliott> Ah, it's ais523\funoog! I mean ais523\unfoog.
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14:36:48 <elliott> "Phobos anomaly!" --yellow
14:41:43 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: yes, the clan name was rather a hint. also the \.
14:52:26 <elliott> "The timeout is fixed but arbitrary. It was a quick hack to remove cars which "get stuck" without dropping their load. It has the side-effect of making this program extremely frustrating to watch."
14:53:28 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: ESR coming back to INTERCAL has done /some/ good; he seems to have connections amongst many of the relevant people, and it unearthed details about the Atari implementation
14:53:57 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: so basically, esr is useful only in that he knows other people :)
14:54:05 <elliott> i wonder if they groan whenever he appears in their inbox
14:54:17 <ais523\unfoog> it turns out that it never existed; the person who first made the electronic copy of the manual was planning to write it, so they documented it in an appendix/tonsil, but neve really started
14:54:30 <ais523\unfoog> also, it was meant to run on arbitrary 6502-based systems
14:54:32 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: *That* I would *not* have guessed.
14:54:42 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: It seemed so... obviously real.
14:55:02 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: (Although I couldn't quite imagine anyone typing in INTERCAL code on an 8-bit ATARI...)
14:55:19 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: hmm, clearly we need to implement Atari INTERCAL, then
14:55:23 <ais523\unfoog> and it was never ported to the Atari, despite being intended to be ported there, because it was never finished
14:55:34 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: otherwise, the compatibility features of modern INTERCAL systems are useless
14:55:40 <elliott> so clearly, we must make them useful by implementing it
14:56:02 <ais523\unfoog> we still have compatibility to the Princeton impl, which definitely did exist
14:56:26 <ais523\unfoog> also, C-INTERCAL was designed to emulate the Atari impl by default, it needs options to implement others
14:57:58 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: right, what I'm saying is, that choice as a compatibility decision now makes no sense at all, you've effectively implemented a never-used-before dialect of INTERCAL
14:58:09 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: so, clearly, we need to implement Atari INTERCAL, so that the choice has relevance and justification
14:58:29 <ais523\unfoog> surely, emulating an existing implementation would be rather similar to most other compilers, though?
14:58:40 <ais523\unfoog> emulating a nonexistent implementation is so much better
14:59:05 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: isn't emulating an implementation *before it even exists* even better?
14:59:40 <ais523\unfoog> also, http://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal/commit/e4f30b9803b2f2911147cc7746fc2e8315387baa is esr's explanation (in the manual) of what happened
15:00:03 <elliott> oh dear, he's even got into the documentation?
15:00:17 <elliott> example programs printing out anti-gun-control messages to be in the next release's manual
15:00:30 <ais523\unfoog> I don't think so, I am looking at his commits, after all
15:00:38 <ais523\unfoog> and it makes sense for him to document his changes, rather than making me do it
15:00:55 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: I'm not sure he'd let you remove anything he added :P
15:00:59 <elliott> (I don't think he will, just sayin'.)
15:01:07 <elliott> He's probably still thinking of it as "his" program.
15:01:30 <ais523\unfoog> well, the only time I ever rejected a proposed feature was that Perl and PHP did it already
15:01:42 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: variable variables?
15:02:01 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: hmm, obviously you need variable constants... or variable invariables...
15:02:11 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: no, variable constants is definitely best
15:02:11 * ais523\unfoog wonders if elliott was thinking "what unusual-seeming feature is done by both Perl and PHP?"
15:02:18 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: they exist already, -v option on command line
15:02:29 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: heh, what does -v mean?
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15:02:41 <ais523\unfoog> it means "don't error out on attempts to change the value of a constant"
15:02:53 <ais523\unfoog> I felt that having that behaviour by default might make things a bit hard to debug
15:03:18 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: oh yeah, INTERCAL, so easy to debug
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15:03:46 <ais523\unfoog> (note, normally to assign to constants in INTERCAL you have to do something like DO .1 <- '.1/#1'$#0, but C-INTERCAL allows the abbreviation)
15:04:19 <ais523\unfoog> actually, C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL both let you assign to arbitrary expressions, but they're both buggy in that respect
15:05:03 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: so does writing a specialiser for a pure functional language in x86-64 assembly without a libc or a kernel sound like fun to you?
15:05:11 <elliott> 'cause i sorta need someone to do that, and it doesn't sound like fun to me.
15:05:42 <ais523\unfoog> I know 8086 asm, but never bothered to see how it had changed when it went 32-bit
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15:08:15 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: anyway, being well-connected is a surprisingly useful skill
15:08:23 <ais523\unfoog> although I feel vaguely well-connected just being in this channel
15:08:46 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: a specialiser takes a function (F_big : X * Y -> Z), and an argument x, and returns (F_small : Y -> Z), where the first argument is filled in
15:09:05 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: of course, you could just do this with partial application, but the trick is partial *evaluation*: you actually evaluate all the stuff you can, knowing the first parameter's value
15:09:18 <elliott> <elliott> ais523\unfoog: of course, you could just do this with partial application, but the trick is partial *evaluation*: you actually evaluate all the stuff you can, knowing the first parameter's value
15:09:35 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: this lets you, say, convert an interpreter into an efficient compiler. (and this "actually works")
15:09:48 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> I /think/ \aleph_{n+1} is just the next largest cardinal from \aleph_n, and there's no definition on what that actually /is/.
15:09:53 <ais523\unfoog> it still looks like a way of implementing a curried function, just an optimised way
15:10:09 <oerjan> if you don't assume the axiom of choice, it's the next largest _well-orderable_ cardinal
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15:10:29 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: say the specialiser is S, and you have an interpreter (I : Program * Input -> Result). then S(I, P) where P is a program is a function (Input -> Result).
15:10:29 <oerjan> and well if you assume AoC, then all cardinals are well-orderable
15:10:41 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: if the specialiser is sufficiently advanced, then the result of S(I, P) is an efficient compilation of P.
15:10:42 <ais523\unfoog> oerjan: you can't say things like "assume the axiom of choice" to me without clarifying contexts
15:10:52 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: (it *is* possible to write specialisers this advanced, just very difficult)
15:10:58 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: (it has been done)
15:11:01 <oerjan> ais523\unfoog: huh? i was quoting Phantom_Hoover
15:11:03 <ais523\unfoog> in this CS lab, people do things like assume it on booleans but not integers
15:11:15 <elliott> erm, Axiom of Choice is provable for finite sets...
15:11:20 <elliott> or rather, the AoC only applies to infinite sets
15:11:46 <ais523\unfoog> one of them obviously has to be infinite for it to be interesting, but the other one has quite a few possibilities
15:11:48 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: -- oh, and of course, S(S, S) is a function that takes an interpreter and returns a compiler.
15:12:25 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: now the specialiser can be in language A, take programs in language B, and output programs in language C, but doing interpreter-to-compiler tricks requires A=B, or at least two specialisers, one taking B and written in A, and one taking B and written in B.
15:12:45 <oerjan> ais523\unfoog: well in any case the _general_ axiom of choice is equivalent to all cardinals being well-orderable
15:12:57 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: if you know of PyPy, their conversion of interpreters to JITs is basically specialised (:P) specialisation, with some annotations to make it easier
15:13:27 * oklopol wishes he knew even a tiny bit of logic
15:13:32 <elliott> oerjan: and who can tell about Zorn's lemma?
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15:13:42 <oerjan> elliott: that is equivalent too
15:13:42 <elliott> oklopol: i *refuse* to believe i know more logic than you
15:13:49 <elliott> oklopol: and i know a tiny bit
15:13:54 <elliott> oerjan: i was making reference.
15:14:01 <oklopol> you probably know more logics than me, at least :D
15:14:09 <elliott> oerjan: "The Axiom of Choice is obviously true, the well-ordering principle obviously false, and who can tell about Zorn's lemma?" --Jerry Bona
15:14:48 <elliott> ("Tarski tried to publish his theorem [the equivalence between AC and 'every infinite set A has the same cardinality as AxA', see above] in Comptes Rendus, but Fréchet and Lebesgue refused to present it. Fréchet wrote that an implication between two well known [true] propositions is not a new result, and Lebesgue wrote that an implication between two false propositions is of no interest".)
15:14:50 <elliott> (but you probably know that one)
15:15:22 <elliott> oerjan: oh and it is actually possible to get the "useful" part of the Axiom of Choice without the well-ordering theorem, in an intuitionistic logic
15:15:24 <elliott> oerjan: see http://r6.ca/blog/20050604T143800Z.html
15:15:26 <oerjan> one would have hoped the editor would have noticed the discrepancy
15:15:40 <elliott> oerjan: (and the "useful" part is actually provable in type theory, which you probably know)
15:16:49 <oerjan> elliott: yeah well intuitionistic logic is afaik more or less restricting the concept of existence to constructable existence, which makes AoC sort of trivial
15:17:13 <elliott> oerjan: well, yes. but it's interesting that it doesn't imply the well-ordering theorem
15:17:16 <elliott> since it's just intensional choice
15:17:17 <ais523\unfoog> it comes up all the time in computer science, because it makes a good model of certain things
15:17:30 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: it comes up all the time in computer science because it's how you do (sane) theorem provers :)
15:17:39 <elliott> as realised in type theory
15:18:12 <elliott> intuitionistic logic is lovely, too bad it's not all that useful for actual mathematics :)
15:18:29 <elliott> <ais523\unfoog> f(not not a) = not not(f a)
15:23:47 <oerjan> 06:58:29 <ais523\unfoog> surely, emulating an existing implementation would be rather similar to most other compilers, though?
15:23:51 <oerjan> 06:58:40 <ais523\unfoog> emulating a nonexistent implementation is so much better
15:23:55 <oerjan> i'm with ais523\unfoog here :D
15:24:35 <elliott> oerjan: what, emulating a nonexistent implementation is better than emulating an implementation before it even exists?
15:24:42 <elliott> that's forwards-back-compatibility
15:26:13 <elliott> oerjan: "in 1990 we implemented the compiler, selecting compatiblity with Atari INTERCAL, written in 2010, as the default mode."
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15:32:37 <oerjan> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/ is topical today
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15:35:26 <elliott> oerjan: it's fizzie's, in case you don't recognise the name
15:35:41 <elliott> oerjan: he showed it to us quite a while ago, so we can now measure the length in weeks of the submission queue!
15:36:22 <oerjan> i _thought_ it was something familiar
15:36:59 <oerjan> but i was a bit confused because i know there's a guy on the mezzacotta forums who uses a piet avatar (Taneb)
15:38:01 <oerjan> i saw that nick briefly in this channel once
15:38:13 <elliott> oerjan: i probably shouldn't know fizzie's real name without even checking, should i
15:38:44 <elliott> indeed oklopol omniovorol or whatever
15:38:54 <elliott> oklopol: btw i have hatched a plan to get your real name! but i've forgotten it
15:39:06 <oklopol> my real name which i've mentioned multiple time
15:39:17 <elliott> oklopol: WELL GREP CAN'T SEARCH FOR NAMES
15:39:19 <oerjan> well fizzie isn't trying to hide his real name, it's right there in the whois
15:39:26 <elliott> maybe i'll try and find like
15:39:45 <elliott> oklopol: ...no man, you're not a J kind of person
15:39:49 <oerjan> elliott: he's either lying now or has lied before
15:40:03 <elliott> oerjan: what's jaska juntunen
15:40:12 <oklopol> okay okay, it's Pivi Liimatainen
15:40:32 <elliott> oklopol: i have a feeling you constructed that name to fit my expectations :P
15:40:34 <oerjan> wait why isn't irssi showing that properly
15:40:45 <elliott> but no, you're no Päivi. especially since that ä looks ugly next to the P
15:40:53 <elliott> oerjan: prolly mirc is too dumb to show his encoding
15:40:57 <elliott> oerjan: prolly mirc is too dumb to send the right encoding
15:41:09 <ais523\unfoog> personally, I like oklopol omniovorol as a pseudo-real-name for oklopol
15:41:14 <oklopol> okay, okay, if you really need to know, my name is Vill Sl
15:41:21 <ais523\unfoog> who cares what the real real name is if you have something that sounds plausible?
15:41:36 <oerjan> elliott: yes but irssi used to show both correctly when my terminal was set to iso-8859-1
15:41:52 <elliott> oerjan: set your terminal to utf-8, set irssi to convert everything else to utf-8
15:42:01 <elliott> oklopol: hey i remember hearing that
15:42:05 <elliott> oklopol: but wasn't that another lie
15:42:14 <Phantom_Hoover> You can construct a name orthogonal to my real one with <weirdly spelt Irish name> <uncommon Irish name beginning with "Mc">
15:42:23 <elliott> "No results found for "Villä Sälö"."
15:42:27 <elliott> i find that vaguely implausible
15:42:30 <elliott> unless it's a rare name or sth
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15:42:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Marvin McHamster
15:43:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Phantom McHoover
15:43:19 <oerjan> elliott: erm it may be that irssi only can convert from utf-8 and that the fact it showed iso-8859-1 properly before was because i had my terminal set to that so it got through when irssi didn't convert...
15:43:31 <oerjan> elliott: he has tweaked the vowels
15:43:34 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, also not weirdly spelt enough. Think silent consonant clusters.
15:43:39 <elliott> oerjan: "irssi only can convert from utf-8" um, that would be rather silly
15:43:54 <elliott> ok googling "villa salo" makse me doubt oklopol :P
15:43:57 <oerjan> on incoming from chaneel...
15:44:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Mcwnm Yyyrtk
15:44:11 <oerjan> elliott: one of the vowels wasn't just adding an accent
15:44:15 <elliott> oerjan: most clients can convert from whatever -> utf-8 before pooping it to the terminal (technical term)
15:44:42 <elliott> i think if i met oklopol in real life i'd just call him oklopol
15:44:53 <elliott> except that i'd pronounce it oh / kloh / pohl because that's how i pronounce it
15:45:03 <oklopol> many of my friends call me oklopol
15:45:24 <elliott> which is correct :P question mark
15:45:37 <oklopol> some also call me brother lasol
15:46:18 <elliott> yet others call you malcom mchamster
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15:46:21 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, plundering your dirt supplies since I've run out.
15:47:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: run out of dirt. wow.
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15:48:56 <elliott> oklopol: are you sure you actually exist in real life
15:49:28 <elliott> oklopol: you don't, you're a figment of your own imagination
15:49:28 <oklopol> i think, but i have no idea what that implies
15:49:53 <elliott> how the fuck did i get to reading vjn comics
15:49:58 <elliott> these are terrible, yet i can't stop
15:50:09 <oerjan> oklopol: write me something accented characters
15:50:12 <oklopol> what language are they in?
15:50:39 <elliott> oklopol: um, i suppose you *could* call it english, if you were feeling generous
15:50:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's this thing
15:50:56 <elliott> oklopol: you made some of them, you should know :|
15:50:58 <oerjan> oklopol: PLEASE i'm trying to test my setting change here
15:50:59 <elliott> admittedly that was 5 years ago in 2008
15:51:10 <oerjan> elliott: no only he can do it
15:51:29 <oerjan> it's for detecting non-utf-8 incoming
15:51:33 <elliott> oerjan: verdã! êxcellentè! ẅimäsẗurkã!
15:51:48 <oklopol> it's not suitable to say bad in school, little uli
15:51:57 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.vjn.fi/c/greenone.png what is this even
15:52:45 <oklopol> elliott: it's a racist joke
15:52:50 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.vjn.fi/c/bladeofhell.png is the phallic imagery intentional
15:52:57 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: i totally would
15:53:09 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: although it's a cumbersome name, you have to pronounce every single bit separately
15:53:10 <ais523\unfoog> indeed, and I'd likely call you ehird without thinking
15:53:12 <oerjan> and it appears recode_fallback was the right setting. i foolishly changed it to utf-8 when changing the other things, but it's supposed to be the name of a non-utf-8 encoding to try to convert from
15:53:15 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: well you could say five hundred and twenty-three but that would be weird
15:53:23 <elliott> yeah i'd probably respond to ehird irl without thinking
15:53:27 <ais523\unfoog> yep, I spell it out when I say my own name mentally
15:53:34 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: also, we prefer "away from keyboard". we believe the internet is real.
15:53:37 <ais523\unfoog> it's strange that I think of you as ehird whatever your actual nick
15:53:50 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: whoosh (or intentional ignorance)
15:54:24 <ais523\unfoog> oklopol: you just made me try to pronounce ais523 in one syllable
15:56:03 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: if you missed the meme reference: http://www.zubon.org/log/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/01-10-1115.jpg
15:56:06 <elliott> (took me ages to track that down)
15:56:18 <ais523\unfoog> I guessed it might be a meme, but wasn't aware of what it was
15:56:47 <ais523\unfoog> "away from keyboard" doesn't really work either, though
15:57:09 <ais523\unfoog> as typically, saying afk in IRC means you physically have to leave contact with the computer, perhaps in an emergency
15:58:31 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/index.php?c=17 i have absolutely no recollection of making this
16:00:18 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: "away from [the] keyboard, i blah'd"
16:00:26 <elliott> true, "afk" makes no sense like that
16:01:32 <elliott> oklopol: "As a rule number one, please remember that beguiling your time on this channel is never meant to be an enjoyable experience *for you*."
16:01:35 <elliott> oklopol: i'm not sure theyk now what beguiling means
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16:02:48 <oklopol> "4.To pass (time) pleasantly." but yeah i don't recall seeing this outside a dictionary
16:03:41 <elliott> "Please note that to join a Finnish association like ours, you don't have to hold the citizenship of Finland or reside in Finland."
16:03:48 <elliott> awesome, i could waste money to absolutely no avail without even moving!
16:04:05 <oklopol> yeah you could join, but we're thinking of making a new association soon so
16:04:14 <oklopol> change the name a bit and such
16:04:29 <elliott> oklopol: what, but vjn is the perfect ordering of the three perfect letters
16:04:46 <elliott> oklopol: but i thought you liked that language :|
16:04:50 <elliott> oh, oerjan will now swat me
16:04:56 <elliott> and i'm talking wronglyest
16:05:54 <elliott> is that irc channel still existing
16:06:05 <elliott> "However, it might be a good idea to stick to English, Finnish, German or ZX3 to avoid getting banned." ZX3 wat
16:06:14 <oklopol> it's a language of volimo's
16:06:50 <elliott> http://www.vjn.fi/index.php?a=361 ha my name will always be famous
16:06:53 <oklopol> looks a lot like tok pisin
16:07:11 <elliott> i still think oklotalk--'s way of setting vars by reusing the name as a parameter was fucked up :D
16:07:37 <oklopol> it's very fucked up, and i should actually change it a bit
16:07:49 <oklopol> you need a better handle of names
16:07:58 <oklopol> there's some things you can't do now
16:07:59 <elliott> <-- the map here is so output makes sense, implementation defect really -->
16:08:18 <elliott> oklopol: so is oklotalk permanently abandoned :p
16:08:46 <oklopol> it's just it's much crazier than it used to be
16:09:31 <oklopol> things get pretty fucked up, cooking up there in my headplace
16:10:16 <elliott> oklopol: what about your os, does it now run solely on badgers
16:11:55 <oerjan> i hear mushrooms are required for proper fucking up
16:12:11 <oklopol> have you heard about MaOS?
16:12:26 <oklopol> the majava operating system
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16:12:41 <oklopol> where everything is a beaver
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16:14:08 <Sgeo> I agree with my professor on something!
16:14:23 <elliott> oklopol: well you can install linux on a dead badger
16:14:26 <Sgeo> She said that the textbook doesn't talk about making your own modules, but she feels it's important
16:14:31 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.strangehorizons.com/2004/20040405/badger.shtml
16:14:43 <Sgeo> So she took examples from a different book
16:15:14 <elliott> Sgeo: wow, like sum kinda scientist or sth
16:16:16 <elliott> oklopol: i just can't see you writing assembly really
16:16:19 <elliott> oklopol: bios calls and all
16:17:59 <oklopol> sounds kind of unlikely, yeas
16:18:11 <Sgeo> I'm just glad she didn't blindly follow the textbook
16:18:25 <elliott> oklopol: BUT IT MUST BE DONE
16:18:32 <oklopol> Sgeo: we don't use textbooks here
16:18:46 <oklopol> the profs just write stuff
16:19:09 <Sgeo> Have I mentioned I dislike this school
16:20:36 <ais523\unfoog> the students have started on exercise 3, which is writing a keylogger as a kernel module
16:20:54 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: best module ever, can i include it in the kitten kernel?
16:21:11 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: wait are these guys actually using "make menuconfig" and the like? are you sure they know how to do that?
16:21:16 <ais523\unfoog> part of the reason it was a disaster is that the kernel doesn't actually let you hook the interrupt in question, so it was being done on a kernel modified to allow modules to hook the keyboard interrupt
16:21:29 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: /module/, those don't require recompiling the kernel
16:21:47 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: oh, they do when you don't use modules and just compile everything in ... like kitten ... but i digress
16:21:56 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: also, lol @ that
16:22:04 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: it'd be easier to patch X.Org to do it :)
16:22:20 <elliott> although you'd need to do X.Org too
16:22:34 <elliott> in fact, you could just log VCs separately to X.Org
16:22:46 <ais523\unfoog> so, obviously it would be crazy to give the students root perms on the normal lab machines so they could try to get this to work
16:23:08 <ais523\unfoog> thus, they were sent to an unusual lab which has some sacrifical machines that are going to be wiped after the exercise
16:23:28 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: should have told them to install linux on their own machine and try it there
16:23:33 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: intellectual darwinism
16:23:49 <ais523\unfoog> which, among other things, have no public internet connection, and do not have the modified kernel needed to do the exercise
16:24:06 <ais523\unfoog> also, the exercise itself was available from the course website
16:24:50 <elliott> <ais523\unfoog> also, the exercise itself was available from the course website
16:25:07 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: i can't see where it's going, but i'm not good at predicting trainwrecks
16:25:09 <ais523\unfoog> but they couldn't access it from inside the lab, because no Internet
16:25:16 <elliott> also it's possible that i've predicted it and not real- ah :)
16:25:36 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: so did anyone manage to get it done? any intrepid people compile the patched kernel and install it to make it work?
16:30:48 <elliott> go, little intrepid car! go go go!
16:30:59 <elliott> i know you'll live to the next generation!
16:32:50 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.vjn.fi/c/isocsshit.jpg why did you make this
16:34:05 <elliott> oklopol: congratulations, "Quimbox" is the worst comic I have ever read
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16:37:59 <oklopol> couple more exist than are online
16:38:09 <oklopol> should probably complete the series
16:38:53 <oklopol> nothing wrong with http://www.vjn.fi/c/isocsshit.jpg
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16:39:31 <oklopol> the reader needs to learn what isocs are
16:39:45 <oklopol> so that they can fully enjoy watching them be massacred
16:40:02 <elliott> oklopol: do you recall making http://www.vjn.fi/c/003.jpg
16:40:04 <oklopol> (about 0.1% of all uli comics are online)
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16:40:39 <oklopol> also i now remember making the other one as well
16:40:58 <elliott> oklopol: so there's like... 700 uli comics?
16:41:02 <elliott> approximating through sheer guesswork
16:42:00 <oklopol> we've spend weekends just watching volimo draw those
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16:47:50 <elliott> oklopol: "Not permit<b>ted: hereby said so. Your violation of access rights has been reported unto our staff.</b>"
16:48:13 <oklopol> yeah that's the oficial mesages
16:51:48 <Sgeo> Maybe I should try newspeak again
16:53:04 <Sgeo> Wawait, newspeak is mostly functional?
16:53:23 <Sgeo> "There is one exactly one construct in the entire language that makes it imperative; the rest depends on the libraries you use. So its very easy to restrict oneself to coding in a pure functional style in Newspeak."
16:54:32 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: back; sorry, I was just doing a bunch of marking
16:54:44 <Sgeo> Who marks the markers?
16:54:48 <elliott> <elliott> ais523\unfoog: so did anyone manage to get it done? any intrepid people compile the patched kernel and install it to make it work?
16:55:26 <ais523\unfoog> but, of course, it was only accessible via scp/sftp from a location that nobody knew, eventually the lecturer came by and told us what it was
16:55:54 <ais523\unfoog> but people who were unused to Linux had to figure out how to copy an RPM from a fileserver on the local network, install it, and then run the new kernel
16:56:09 <ais523\unfoog> in fact, I spent most of the two-hour session running around explaining it to people
16:56:23 <ais523\unfoog> and even once that was done, they had to find the example code they were meant to work from
16:56:34 <ais523\unfoog> in the end, we copied it out of the lecturer's home directory
16:56:47 <ais523\unfoog> (you know, it was a+r, and accessible from that machine via ssh...)
16:57:34 <oklopol> so this friend of mine is teaching java at uni, he usually spends the two hour sessions telling people what the difference between returning values and mutating the parameter is
16:57:53 <oklopol> oh and of course about how a function can actually be called multiple times, with different parameters
16:59:03 <ais523\unfoog> oklopol: strangely, most of the students here grasped that pretty well
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17:00:01 <Sgeo> oklopol, does your friend happen to work here?
17:00:06 <elliott> oklopol: are they masters students
17:00:13 <elliott> Sgeo: YOU DID NOT GIBBER AT ALL THERE STOP IT
17:00:59 <oerjan> gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber gibber
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17:04:16 <oklofok> elliott: no, they are not master's students, not in cs at least
17:04:19 <Sgeo> The Newspeak browser needs tabbed browsing.
17:04:26 <elliott> oklofok: well ais523\unfoog's students are.
17:04:41 <elliott> not his students i guess they're not his property technically
17:04:43 <elliott> but let's just call them that
17:04:49 <elliott> ever start writing a sentence and it's stupid
17:04:53 <elliott> just happened to me, funniest thing
17:05:16 <oklofok> i proudly present it to the world, and go on with my life
17:06:16 <elliott> oklofok: i did that, it's the lines above that line.
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17:42:30 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> The Newspeak browser needs tabbed browsing. <-- a double plus good idea?
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18:20:02 <ais523_> ugh, fan got stuck, computer shut down to avoid overheating
18:20:08 <ais523_> and I didn't notice in time
18:21:05 <elliott> ais523_: cramming the components into 11" sure didn't work so well for toshiba, huh
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18:30:57 <elliott> ais523: is it bad when 99% of the thoughts i have about project X are utterly unrelated to the direct point of project X and are instead about my insane implementation choices?
18:33:22 <elliott> oklopol: how can you say that, you're a mathematician :)
18:33:53 <elliott> "Mark Zukerberg’s Zionist FB which took YEARS to develop and ran as a prototype for years. Than was registered in 1997 and it wasn’t until a YEAR LATER in 1998 that they could formally launch it." what
18:34:03 <elliott> yeah facebook, launched in 1998
18:34:11 <oerjan> elliott: hey that sounds like the reason why most of my programs stay vaporware :D
18:34:24 <oerjan> well one of the reasons
18:34:37 <elliott> oklopol: because mathematics is about abstracting your problems away to such a degree that you can't possibly be lonely any more!
18:34:59 <oklopol> that's the opposite of implementation choices
18:36:06 <oerjan> oklopol: actually there is an intersection there, when you fall into the trap of making a whole general framework just to write part of your program
18:37:33 <elliott> oklopol: well in my case it's that my implementation choices are *abstractions*
18:37:35 <elliott> what oerjan said basically
18:37:48 <elliott> i'm not thinking about my wonderful OS, I'm thinking about lazy specialisers and type theory :)
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18:40:53 <oerjan> ...my vague attempts at writing a Reaper implementation in Haskell tended to get stuck on me trying to invent Enumerators before oleg did, i suspect...
18:41:09 <oerjan> maybe i should try again soon
18:43:00 <elliott> oerjan: is Reaper that hard? :P
18:43:48 <oerjan> the syntax is intended to be more insane than what the description so far may indicate
18:43:55 <elliott> say, why don't we delete [[Language list]] and point it to [[Category:Languages]]?
18:44:03 <elliott> IIRC admins can edit the sidebar
18:44:17 <elliott> well, with a script to put language list articles into the category
18:44:47 <elliott> why does Redivider get very little attention?
18:45:18 <oerjan> there is the issue of article names that are incorrect for technical reasons, and also something about formatting for categories being awful with great length variation
18:45:56 <elliott> why are we on mediawiki anyway :D
18:46:19 <oerjan> and also the Language list article could be expanded with short descriptions. anyway i recall there was a discussion of this on the talk page.
18:47:00 <oerjan> which may have been started by me asking the same question, at least i was involved i think
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19:16:52 <elliott> oerjan: wait, what about [[Category:Foo|bar]]
19:16:56 <elliott> oerjan: doesn't that make it show as bar in the category?
19:20:29 <elliott> oerjan: i'll test it by vandalising [[brainfuck]]
19:21:01 <elliott> oerjan: oh, it just changes the sort order
19:21:07 <elliott> --http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Brainfuck
19:21:29 <oerjan> ok i seem to vaguely recall that
19:22:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, seems random lag
19:22:31 <elliott> oerjan: ok then we need a bot that uses [[Category:Languages|foo]] to determine the name of every language, and automatically maintains the language list :D
19:27:29 <ais523> elliott: it changes sort order, yes
19:28:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm. What's the smallest ordinal that's equal to 1 plus itself?
19:28:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: \omega, presumably...
19:29:36 <oerjan> ordinal addition isn't commutative
19:29:46 <oerjan> it _is_ equal to 1 + \omega
19:30:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, I see the pitfalls of using language to describe maths.
19:30:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: erm it's defined as \beth_{n+1} = ...
19:31:20 <oerjan> 1 + a = a for all infinite ordinals a
19:31:37 <oerjan> n + 1 is by definition the next larger ordinal
19:32:12 <oerjan> of course not, that's Cantor's theorem
19:32:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that... was obvious
19:32:19 <elliott> i was just about to type "Cantor's"
19:32:31 <elliott> i was thinking you had some Higher Evil Purpose in mind than *that*
19:32:37 <oklofok> i just proved that here a few days ago
19:32:41 <elliott> oerjan: WAIT but what if X is strictly larger than X
19:32:42 <oklofok> i though Phantom_Hoover was near
19:32:48 <elliott> oerjan: WHAT NOW CANTOR, YOU DON'T DISPROVE IT ANY MORE
19:32:55 <elliott> q.e.motherfuckin'.d. bitches
19:32:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I was wondering if there was some weird, esoteric set which didn't work with Cantor.
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19:34:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yeah cuz theorems saying "for all X" usually mean
19:34:20 <elliott> and that's why they're useful results, because we can invalidate them with esoteric edge-cases
19:34:39 <oerjan> also the ordinals are also never-ending, they do not form a set
19:35:02 <elliott> oerjan: what about the ESOTERIC ordinals
19:35:05 <oerjan> (Burali-Forti paradox)
19:35:12 <elliott> sorry Phantom_Hoover! just lying, you're the stupidest person ever
19:35:32 <elliott> hey the car stopped evolving and froze :(
19:35:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, see? If I'm not stupider than everyone I must be strictly smarter than myself.
19:36:22 <oklofok> is there a logic in which the exception makes the theorem
19:36:40 <oerjan> oklofok: english spelling logic
19:37:18 <elliott> oklofok: (exists x. ~P(x) & (forall y. y =/= x -> P(y)))
19:37:23 <elliott> oklofok: (interpreting exists/forall as normaly)
19:37:26 <elliott> as the way to prove (forall x. P(x))
19:37:28 <elliott> i approve of this insanity
19:40:32 <elliott> oklofok: or maybe you should just make forall mean foralmostall
19:40:41 <elliott> oklofok: as long as there's finite counterexamples you're good to go
19:43:19 <elliott> oklofok: ""Almost all" is sometimes used synonymously with "all but finitely many" (formally, a cofinite set) or "all but a countable set" (formally, a cocountable set); see almost." --proved by wikipedia
19:44:03 <oklofok> the measure theoretic meaning basically never means all but finitely many
19:44:26 <elliott> oklofok: i know, but it's nicer this way
19:44:38 <elliott> oklofok: (for this specific, stupid case)
19:44:44 <oklofok> that would only happen if there are a finite set A with measure zero, and all other points are atoms
19:44:52 <oklofok> that is, have nonzero measure as singletons
19:46:12 <oklofok> so for instance if it's a probability space, you'll have a countable number of points, and sets are never that small
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19:47:38 <elliott> oklofok: all sets are visible under microscope
19:52:38 <Slereah> What about the empty set? D:
19:54:29 <elliott> Slereah: that is EVERYWHERE
19:54:42 <elliott> Slereah: also fun fact i literally thought yesterday that you should talk more in #esoteric; do so
19:54:52 <elliott> (and just remembered now :P)
19:56:35 <Slereah> But I am a terrible programmer D:
19:56:41 <elliott> Slereah: don't worry, so's oerjan
19:56:47 <Slereah> Do you want to cyber, maybe
19:56:56 <elliott> and Phantom_Hoover has made like 3 programs in his life!
19:59:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: his programs are so bad that they constitute negative fractions of programs, duh
19:59:45 <oerjan> almost as lousy as elliott's insults
20:00:02 <Phantom_Hoover> The 3 programs I wrote weren't exactly shining examples of code either...
20:00:18 <elliott> oerjan: is it not true that you took part in the haskell 98 standards process to deliberately sabotage its usefulness in your crusade against good programs?
20:00:40 <Slereah> Nobody uses my languages ;_;
20:00:49 <Slereah> Sure, they are neither original nor well made
20:01:04 <elliott> Slereah: you REJECTED my lazy bird logo
20:01:14 <oklofok> was that logo a... lazy bird?
20:01:15 <elliott> it was even better than ratpoison's logo
20:01:24 <elliott> oklofok: yes, it was fat and had a crossed-out lambda on it
20:01:25 <oklofok> is ratpoison's logo... rat poison?
20:01:35 <elliott> ratpoison's logo is a cross thing like stop sign, over a badly-drawn rat
20:01:38 <oerjan> elliott: hah it was sabotaged before i'd ever heard of it (see: monad comprehensions)
20:01:41 <Slereah> Because lazy bird HAS LAMBDA CALCULUS
20:01:55 <elliott> oerjan: those weren't in h98 right?
20:02:08 <oerjan> indeed they were _removed_ in h98
20:02:16 <elliott> oerjan: right, pretty stupid
20:02:26 <elliott> oerjan: i read someone's blog, they're coding them as a ghc extension
20:02:33 <elliott> oerjan: looks like we're set for a full circle on that issue :)
20:02:47 <elliott> oerjan: what did you even do anyway? typo fixing? :p
20:03:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: he fixed typos
20:04:11 <elliott> semanticianary typocalypse
20:04:36 <oerjan> the typocalypse its up on us
20:05:41 <elliott> oklofok: write my lazy specialiser for me
20:12:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It had bloody well not be, or else there will be blood unless my items are returned to me.
20:12:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: whine whine moan
20:12:42 <Vorpal> elliott, ... stop being silly
20:13:28 <elliott> people shouldn't whine about items disappearing
20:13:31 <elliott> it's happened to all of us
20:14:07 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't think you understand the meaning of "silly"
20:14:19 <elliott> "I disagree with what you say" would be reasonable, "that's a stupid response", yes, but "ha ha you are being silly" is not.
20:14:20 <oerjan> of course not, he's swedish
20:14:33 <elliott> oerjan: i think those jokes have something to them
20:15:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, this isn't single items disappearing I'm whining about.
20:15:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ineiros found your blimp
20:15:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Vorpal whined when his inventory disappeared too
20:15:32 <elliott> my own inventory has disappeared four, five, six times
20:15:36 <elliott> i just recreate it, it's not hard
20:15:41 <Vorpal> elliott, yes your are the abnormal one
20:15:42 <elliott> store everything you don't need right now in chests
20:15:51 <elliott> Vorpal: when has fizzie or ineiros whined about losing their inventory
20:15:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: nearly-irreplacable? Like what?
20:16:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Erm... craft one?
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20:16:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless you want to scour for dungeons to get some string.
20:16:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ITT: server willing to use /give
20:16:59 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
20:17:57 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, i.e. exactly what you were complaining about me asking for.
20:18:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that's not quite "give me back my items"
20:21:33 -!- comex has left (?).
20:21:47 <Vorpal> elliott, it is very very very close
20:22:08 <elliott> what's so rare about string
20:23:39 <Vorpal> I lost a bow two. Fizzie can confirm this
20:24:05 <elliott> and since bows are useless, who cares
20:24:11 <Vorpal> elliott, they will be fixed tomorrow
20:24:25 <Vorpal> ineiros, hey: update tomorrow that requires both client and server to be updated in sync
20:24:34 <elliott> i thought updates were voluntary now.
20:24:43 <Vorpal> elliott, I think they are going to be very soon
20:24:46 <elliott> of course the server probably still checks minecraft just to punish anyone actually taking advantage of that
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20:56:43 <elliott> hmm, let's start a moneyless betting pool on who will become SHA-3 once the final round contestants are announced
20:58:55 <elliott> i'd guess either Skein or CubeHash due to the big names behind them :P
20:59:06 <elliott> seems that skein has attacks published and cubehash doesn't
20:59:15 <elliott> [[In October 2010, an attack that combines rotational cryptanalysis with the rebound attack was published. The attack breaks collision resistance of up to 53 of 72 rounds in Skein-256, and 57 of 72 rounds in Skein-512. It also affects the Threefish cipher.[2] This is a follow-up to the earlier attack published in February, which breaks 39 and 42 rounds respectively.[5]]
20:59:56 <pikhq> elliott: Clearly, SHA-3 will only exist when someone manages to make a perfect mapping from a larger set to a smaller set.
21:00:12 <pikhq> elliott: Obviously, in order to compute this function you need a magic wand and a spellcaster.
21:00:20 <elliott> pikhq: considering they're announcing final round contestants soon, i doubt it :)
21:00:42 <elliott> http://cubehash.cr.yp.to/prizes.html typical bernstein!
21:01:30 <elliott> we should just put bernstein in charge of security of the entire world.
21:02:50 <elliott> pikhq: heh, i didn't realise he was the one who got US crypto export restrictions eliminated!
21:02:53 <elliott> The case was first brought in 1995, when Bernstein was a student at University of California, Berkeley, and wanted to publish a paper and associated source code on his Snuffle encryption system. Bernstein was represented by the Electronic Frontier Foundation, who hired outside lawyer Cindy Cohn. After four years and one regulatory change, the court case won a landmark decision from the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, that software source code was
21:02:53 <elliott> speech protected by the First Amendment and that the government's regulations preventing its publication were unconstitutional.[1]
21:03:05 <elliott> [[Often lost in the discussion of Bernstein v. United States, the court case that overturned and eventually eliminated US export restrictions on cryptography, is that the subject of the case, Snuffle, was itself an attempt to bypass the regulations.
21:03:06 <elliott> Snuffle showed how to use a cryptographic hash function, which was legal to export, as a strong encryption system, which was illegal to export. The irony of the case was that it was not the hash that was illegal, but the software that showed how to use it.]]
21:03:42 <elliott> but [[The government modified the regulations again, substantially loosening them, and Bernstein, now a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago, challenged them again. This time, he chose to represent himself, although he had no formal legal training. On October 15, 2003, almost nine years after Bernstein first brought the case, the judge dismissed it and asked Bernstein to come back when the government made a "concrete threat".[2]]]
21:03:51 <pikhq> Cubehash is actually quite a simple hash algorithm. ♥ Bernstein.
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21:35:45 <elliott> pikhq: Why did tar win out over cpio? isn't cpio more advanced and with a more unixy interface?
21:35:57 <elliott> as well as the fact that it was in SysV
21:36:17 <elliott> also: why does initramfs use cpio? why rpm?
21:36:44 <elliott> ("The cpio utility was standardized in POSIX.1-1988. It was dropped from later revisions, starting with POSIX.1-2001 due to its 8 GB filesize limit." heh)
21:37:02 <pikhq> cpio's a bit easier to parse, I bet.
21:37:38 <elliott> pikhq: I'm sure RPM just uses a library or calls out to cpio...
21:37:55 <elliott> pikhq: But yeah, why did tar win?
21:38:28 <elliott> Oh, Bent Linux's bpm uses cpio.bz2. I'm not sure why; it just calls out to cpio(1). Perhaps the author used rpm a lot.
21:39:37 <elliott> pikhq: Ha! pax can be used to do cp(1).
21:39:39 <elliott> find . -depth -print | pax -rwd target_dirfind . -depth -print | pax -rwd target_dir
21:39:54 <elliott> Well; cp with -R, that is.
21:40:30 <pikhq> Seems that tar's a bit older. And network effects took over.
21:42:17 <elliott> pikhq: Have you *seen* how useless pre-2001 POSIX tar is?
21:42:40 <pikhq> Tar is such a bad format.
21:42:45 <elliott> pikhq: Which makes me suspect: lol, GNU did it.
21:42:55 <elliott> Because GNU had their own tar extensions that made it useful.
21:43:11 <elliott> pikhq: Despite all this, GNU cpio is actually the GNU Operating System's official archiver, and can read and write tarballs.
21:43:26 <elliott> pikhq: Perhaps rms uses it, or something.
21:43:41 <elliott> [[GNU cpio supports the following archive formats: binary, old ASCII, new ASCII, crc, HPUX binary, HPUX old ASCII, old tar, and POSIX.1 tar. The tar format is provided for compatability with the tar program. By default, cpio creates binary format archives, for compatibility with older cpio programs. When extracting from archives, cpio automatically recognizes which kind of archive it is reading and can read archives created on machines with a dif
21:43:44 <elliott> pikhq: A...ASCII cpio? wat
21:44:00 <elliott> pikhq: look at the list of downloads on http://www.gnu.org/software/cpio/
21:44:05 <elliott> cpio-2.11.tar.gz and its signature
21:44:06 <elliott> cpio-2.11.tar.bz2 and its signature
21:44:06 <elliott> cpio-2.11.shar.gz and its signature
21:44:12 <elliott> before that, not even shars, just tars
21:50:21 <elliott> shars aren't nearly portable enough anyway, we demand dd/sh archives
21:51:11 <elliott> http://dd-sh.intercal.org.uk/regex/ wow.
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22:09:54 <elliott> dd of="CLC-INTERCAL$DTYPE-$VERSION/Makefile.PL" bs=6468 count=1 <&3 2>&1 | grep -v '[0-9] record' | grep -v 'bytes.*copied'
22:10:06 <elliott> The CLC-INTERCAL dd/sh packages are LIES! That's GREP I spot!
22:12:58 <pikhq> If only that grep were a sh function.
22:13:25 <elliott> pikhq: Is "$@" standard Bourne shell? I don't think so...
22:14:57 <pikhq> Appears not to be in Bourne's shell documentation.
22:15:04 <pikhq> Could be in POSIX though.\
22:15:28 <pikhq> I'm going to guess it's a Korn addition.
22:15:31 <elliott> pikhq: But "exec 3<blah" is, yes?
22:16:07 <elliott> pikhq: (I'm trying to implement a dd/sharchiver in dd/sh.)
22:16:20 <elliott> pikhq: (This involves keeping track of state, and also parsing dd's diagnostic output. Ho ho...)
22:16:40 <elliott> Let's see if I can't wrangle a predictable way to read the number of bytes from dd in a way I can parse using only dd and sh!
22:17:54 <pikhq> Yeah, @ is definitely in POSIX sh.
22:18:07 <elliott> dd/sh is specified to be Bourne sh.
22:19:13 <pikhq> OH MY GOD THE SOURCE TO BOURNE SH IS TERRIBLE
22:19:23 <elliott> Aha! If I store dd's diagnostic output in a variable, pipe "echo $diag" to dd, using bs=1 count=1 and skip=0 then skip=1 etc., I can increment a counter every time it's 0 to 9 (with switch/case) and break when it's +, the end; then I can just do
22:19:36 <elliott> echo $diag | dd bs=1 count=$howevermany 2>/dev/null
22:19:45 <pikhq> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V7/usr/src/cmd/sh/mac.h
22:20:07 <pikhq> AND IT USES TRUE=-1
22:21:03 <elliott> pikhq: You need `...` for Bourne sh, right? Not $(...).
22:21:12 <pikhq> $() is a POSIXism.
22:21:20 <elliott> Does `echo $1 | ...` work if $1 exists in the parent scope?
22:22:23 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm. How does one increment a variable by one when one is only in possession of dd and Bourne sh?
22:22:25 <pikhq> It's Korn shell with Tk.
22:22:59 <elliott> WAIT I missed the easiest solution to this.
22:23:39 <pikhq> elliott: I am *horribly* afraid the only way to do increment is a lookup table.
22:23:46 <elliott> pikhq: Good thing I don't have to, then.
22:23:53 <elliott> pikhq: Although I, uh, will need addition soon.
22:23:58 <elliott> pikhq: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
22:24:13 <elliott> pikhq: And I have to use decimal to pass to dd, so I can't just use unary and concatenate.
22:24:29 <elliott> Dammit, doesn't even work either.
22:25:28 <elliott> wait, that doesn't even work.
22:26:08 <elliott> pikhq: can you say "replace first instance of this with that in this string" in bourne sh?
22:26:11 <elliott> you definitely can in bash, easily
22:26:19 <elliott> the ${foo#blah%whatever} kind of stuff
22:27:33 <pikhq> Wait, wait, $@ *is* Bourne.
22:27:46 <pikhq> Anyways. The replacement thing... Looking.
22:29:11 <elliott> pikhq: But is "$@" somehow magically expanding to multiple things Bourne?
22:29:14 <pikhq> No, you can't do the replacement thing.
22:29:15 <elliott> for x in "$@"; do ... done
22:29:29 <elliott> pikhq: WAIT that's okay I can use dd to do the replacement thing!
22:31:34 <elliott> pikhq: http://sprunge.us/fVLX
22:31:41 <elliott> pikhq: parsenum 123xyzblah -> 123
22:31:58 <fizzie> elliott: If you want easy arithmetics, you can use a file as a unary variable. To convert the value to a decimal integer, extract the file size from dd diagnostics. To add a decimal integer N to one file, do "dd if=inputvar of=outputvar bs=1 seek=N".
22:32:36 <elliott> fizzie: (1) <3 (2) Any way to do that without using a temporary file? I suppose not, but...
22:32:42 <elliott> fizzie: Wait, I can just use a variable, duh.
22:33:26 <fizzie> I wanted to do something that would do `dd if=/dev/zero count=...` and so on, but it appears zero bytes are too scary.
22:34:59 <fizzie> They go away; "echo `dd if=/dev/zero bs=1 count=5` | hexdump -C" just prints a single newline.
22:35:23 <fizzie> Or rather, hexdumps a single newline.
22:35:43 <elliott> fizzie: Wouldn't /dev/urandom work?
22:35:48 <elliott> fizzie: I mean, hypothetically...
22:36:19 <elliott> fizzie: Wait, you can implement the equivalent of "yes ''" as a shell function.
22:36:48 <elliott> fizzie: yesnewline >&3 | dd <&3 bs=1 count=5
22:37:01 <elliott> fizzie: And echo whatever else on a non-&3 pipe.
22:38:06 <fizzie> Something like that sounds at least plausible.
22:38:33 <elliott> fizzie: Now you have to tell me how to tell dd not to bother actually copying the file, just to display stats as if it would have. :p
22:39:06 <elliott> wait, that isn't the problem
22:40:21 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ dd if=/dev/zero bs=1 count=42 seek=69 > t 2> /dev/null; dd if=t bs=1
22:40:26 <fizzie> That's 42+69 in decimal.
22:40:55 <fizzie> Couldn't quite yet figure out how to do that without the temporary, since you can't seek=N a pipe.
22:41:42 <fizzie> But you need to be able to read the resulting output file to get the result.
22:41:56 <fizzie> The diagnostics from the original dd ignore seek/skip amounts.
22:42:22 <elliott> fizzie: Use skip instead of seek?
22:42:44 <elliott> Doubt that would work, but...
22:42:50 <fizzie> That won't really help, then it just silently skips N bytes out of /dev/zero, which has no discernable effect.
22:43:45 <elliott> fizzie: x=`dd if=/dev/zero bs=1 count=42 seek=69 2>/dev/null`
22:43:55 <elliott> You said that didn't work.
22:44:24 <fizzie> That won't do anything; both the "`` won't save zeroes" problem, and the "seek won't work if of= doesn't name a file" problem.
22:44:36 <elliott> fizzie: dd can do conversions, can't it?
22:44:42 <elliott> So you can change the zeroes to... something else?
22:45:03 <fizzie> Just ebcdic/ascii and such, couldn't yet figure out anything that'd do anything to zeroes.
22:45:50 <fizzie> But at least you can compute N*M without a temporary file: "dd if=/dev/zero bs=6 count=7 2>/dev/null | dd bs=1" and read the diagnostics.
22:46:17 <elliott> fizzie: Unfortunately I don't need multiplication.
22:46:46 <fizzie> Well, this works in bash:
22:46:49 <fizzie> $ (dd if=/dev/zero bs=1 count=42 2>/dev/null; dd if=/dev/zero bs=1 count=69 2>/dev/null) | dd bs=1
22:47:01 <fizzie> I don't know how complicated (...) subshellery you can do in sh.
22:47:05 <elliott> fizzie: What's so bash about that?
22:47:19 <elliott> If not, {} might work, perhaps?
22:47:47 <fizzie> I am really not a sh guy. But as long as you get something to run two commands and get their outputs into the same pipe.
22:48:50 <elliott> fizzie: erm, define a function and use that?
22:49:36 <fizzie> Well, y'see, I don't know how primitive sh is, so I tend to assume the worst. Chances are that stuff will work.
22:49:41 <fizzie> If nothing else, at least sh -c 'dd if=/dev/zero bs=1 count=42 2>/dev/null; dd if=/dev/zero bs=1 count=69 2>/dev/null' | dd bs=1
22:50:04 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:50:05 <fizzie> (The so-called manual subshelling.)
22:51:43 <elliott> pikhq: bourne sh had functions right?
22:52:01 <elliott> dd if=/dev/zero bs=1 count="$1" 2>/dev/null
22:52:01 <elliott> dd if=/dev/zero bs=1 count="$2" 2>/dev/null
22:52:01 <elliott> ) | dd bs=1 of=/dev/null 2>&1`
22:52:05 <elliott> slowest way to add two numbers EVER
22:52:12 <pikhq> fizzie: What you named there would work in Thompson shell.
22:52:12 <elliott> apart from intercal's snobol implementation
22:52:23 <elliott> pikhq: So (x; y) | z is kosher in Bourne?
22:52:28 <pikhq> (the predecessor to Bourne, written by Ken Thompson.)
22:52:29 <pikhq> elliott: Entirely.
22:52:55 <pikhq> elliott: http://steve-parker.org/sh/bourne.shtml Here.
22:53:01 * elliott replaces /dev/zero with his own infinite-output function; relying on non-/dev/null files here seems wrong.
22:53:07 <pikhq> It's the Bourne shell documentation. Written by Bourne.
22:53:19 <elliott> pikhq: he's crazy enough to code C like that, why should i trust him :D
22:54:40 <elliott> I can use (exit 0) instead.
22:56:10 <elliott> yesnl | dd bs=1 count="$1" 2>/dev/null
22:56:10 <elliott> yesnl | dd bs=1 count="$2" 2>/dev/null
22:56:15 <elliott> This doesn't work... yesnl is:
22:56:35 <elliott> Works with if=/dev/zero...
22:56:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no longer on?
22:57:36 <elliott> How odd, Echo appears to be the problem.
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22:58:40 <elliott> dd seems to not bother quitting...
22:59:01 <elliott> pikhq: return kosher Bourne?
22:59:35 <pikhq> elliott: Try building Bourne shell and testing. :P
23:03:09 <fizzie> Just for the record, if you need to handle negative quantities, subtraction is really easy: dd if=/dev/zero bs=1 count=123 2>/dev/null | dd bs=1 skip=45 of=/dev/null 2>&1 will compute 123-45.
23:04:58 <fizzie> People should use more unary number systems, they're the bee's knees.
23:06:40 <elliott> block pad newline-terminated records with spaces to cbs-size
23:07:01 <elliott> $ echo | dd cbs=1G count=1 conv=block
23:07:30 <elliott> sped up my addition algorithm immensely!
23:08:21 <fizzie> You can just test for the - sign and then subtract instead of add, and so on. It's a bit of messy, but none of those dd parameters can be negative. :/
23:08:32 <elliott> fizzie: Man, your algorithm is unbelievably slow.
23:08:59 <Mathnerd314> fizzie: IMO it's just no comparison to balanced ternary
23:09:21 <fizzie> Oh, you meant the unary bit, not just dd/sh math in general.
23:09:34 <fizzie> Sure, if you want to be *practical* about it...
23:14:14 <elliott> "I can CLEARLY see those genitals!"
23:16:10 <fizzie> With cbs=1G, I wouldn't be surprised if dd were allocating a gigabyte and doing something to it in memory before starting to write.
23:16:29 <elliott> fizzie: Unlikely, it goes quickly for me. Anyway even with /dev/zero it's TOO SLOW.
23:16:45 <elliott> fizzie: File sizes in bytes are regularly added to it.
23:17:43 <fizzie> Well, it's O(n) single-byte write/read pair where n is your sum value.
23:20:23 <fizzie> You might be able to speed it up a tiny bit by converting those two "output" dd's from "dd bs=1 count=N" to "dd bs=N count=1", but the reading "input" dd does need bs=1 for the diagnostics. (Maybe ibs=1M obs=1 could work too.)
23:20:23 <elliott> fizzie: Right, but I have to numparse it, which invokes dd a lot and is O(n) where n is length of the resulting number.
23:20:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm? it is up
23:21:09 <fizzie> I don't think I saw your numparse.
23:21:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I'm despairing at the fact that I may have completely messed up the ROU's hull in places.
23:22:29 <elliott> fizzie: That goes INSANELY faster. (Well, faster enough.)
23:22:50 <elliott> fizzie: parsenum is "interesting"; http://sprunge.us/fVLX
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23:23:48 <elliott> fizzie: "ibs=1M obs=1" fails horribly.
23:24:14 <elliott> fizzie: Anyway, parsenum optimisations welcome :P
23:24:30 <elliott> fizzie: Those echoes are *Echo in the new version
23:24:35 <elliott> which is actually dding to dd
23:24:36 <fizzie> Ah, a "read up one byte at a time with dd" sort of thing.
23:24:54 <elliott> c=`dd bs=1 count=1 2>/dev/null <<EOF
23:25:32 <elliott> fizzie: It really is irritating having to dd every file twice, though.
23:25:35 <elliott> Especially if the file is big.
23:25:53 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, um, I think it's broken.
23:25:56 <elliott> dd of='/home/elliott/code/inst/wget-1.12/tests/Test-idn-headers.px' skip=15774 count=1719 <&3 2>/dev/null || exit 1
23:25:56 <elliott> dd of='/home/elliott/code/inst/wget-1.12/tests/Test-ftp-iri.px' skip=3255 count=1080 <&3 2>/dev/null || exit 1
23:27:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how so?
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23:27:27 <fizzie> It might well be broken; it's not very well-tested.
23:27:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, my cobblestone factory works. It is larger than that though
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23:27:51 <Goosey> I'm back from school. :)
23:27:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I see. Is it visibly wrong?
23:28:28 <elliott> fizzie: More efficient ways to implement
23:28:29 <elliott> Echo | dd cbs=1G conv=block
23:28:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the difference is about 1 pixel off-centre. It's still niggling, though.
23:28:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I see.
23:28:38 <elliott> Also that "nl" is totally wrong, /me renames it to inf.
23:28:46 <fizzie> The ibs=1M obs=1 failure is probably because you're reading the first line of diagnostics, not the second. (But if you can easily get the N'th line, you can actually use bs=1M in general and read the third, "bytes copied" bit.)
23:29:43 <elliott> fizzie: Get the second line? With *dd*?
23:29:53 <elliott> fizzie: Maybe with another parsenum-style monstrosity...
23:31:21 <elliott> Goosey: sorry i'm too busy implementing a dd/sharchiver.
23:31:38 <elliott> fizzie: Also, less slow ways to do: size=`parsenum \`dd bs=1 if="$file" of=/dev/null 2>&1\``
23:31:53 <elliott> fizzie: For instance ways that don't involve copying the file.
23:32:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you said "may"
23:32:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, did you however do it?
23:32:32 <fizzie> Isn't that just reading the file instead of actually copying? Still.
23:32:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there you go then
23:32:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, in which direction is the error?
23:32:58 <elliott> fizzie: Copying it to NOWHERE.
23:33:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is in the length?
23:33:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well since you can't easily see from side to side that isn't much of an issue
23:34:37 <elliott> fizzie: All the dds have "skip=foo", and read from the program file itself.
23:34:52 <elliott> fizzie: So basically I have to know the size of the ddshar script, including the skips, before I can write it...
23:35:28 <elliott> How does CLC-INTERCAL do it...
23:35:33 <elliott> dd of=/dev/null bs=2825 count=1 <&3 2>/dev/null
23:35:43 <fizzie> elliott: Well, um, for the earlier thing, there's again the bs=1 issue that usually slows that down. You can try ibs=1 obs=1M but that probably won't help much; or bs=1M if you can be bothered to read the third line.
23:35:44 <elliott> fizzie: Wait, I don't need addition after all; there is that.
23:36:28 <elliott> fizzie: Patches accepted wrt reading the first line :P
23:37:17 <elliott> dd of=/dev/null bs=2825 count=1 <&3 2>/dev/null
23:37:22 <elliott> i love how the padding imposes a maximum file length
23:38:57 <elliott> fizzie: HAHAHA how do you do subtraction again?
23:39:06 <fizzie> "dd of=/dev/null bs=1234 count=1 <&3 2>/dev/null" sounds like it's better written as "dd bs=1234 skip=1 count=0 <&3 2>/dev/null" to get a seek instead of a throwaway read, but I can't be sure that'd work.
23:39:17 <elliott> fizzie: Or rather: How do I fill in, say, 20 spaces with a number, left-aligned?
23:39:37 <elliott> skip would work, yes; thanks.
23:40:05 <elliott> fizzie: I'm actually planning to get rid of the /dev/null dependency. >&4 should work, for unallocated fourth descriptor.
23:40:20 <elliott> nobody said dd/sh implies unix!
23:42:35 <fizzie> Here's how to get the third line:
23:42:37 <fizzie> $ echo xxx | dd bs=1M of=/dev/null 2>&1 | dd cbs=80 conv=block 2>/dev/null | dd cbs=80 bs=80 skip=2 conv=unblock 2>/dev/null
23:42:40 <fizzie> 4 bytes (4 B) copied, 0.000917496 s, 4.4 kB/s
23:42:59 <fizzie> The first dd is the one producing the diagnostics.
23:43:02 <elliott> fizzie: Now now, dd could always print a line longer than 80 chars.
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23:43:17 <fizzie> Well, make it a bit longer.
23:43:28 <elliott> fizzie: Arbitrary limits are bad for your HEALTH!
23:43:54 <fizzie> Says the "20 spaces with a number" guy.
23:44:35 <elliott> fizzie: You do realise the number going in those 20 spaces depends on the length of the line they're in? :P
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23:52:22 <elliott> fizzie: Funny how similar this is to quining...
23:52:47 <Sasha> Anyone use OpenOffice 3?
23:53:10 <elliott> i do not like using it, nor want to use it
23:53:21 <elliott> i would prefer it and its Microsoft brother would just go shoot themselves forever or something.
23:53:24 <elliott> Sasha: also, it's LibreOffice now.
23:53:25 <Sasha> how do i do doublespacing?
23:53:35 <elliott> Sasha: with the formatting menu.
23:54:18 <quintopia> elliott: what is your editing-for-print solution of choice?
23:54:25 * Sasha derp a derp a derp
23:54:35 <elliott> quintopia: i don't believe in paper. i am fairly sure it does not exist.
23:54:51 <elliott> but probably latex, because i'm a masochist.
23:55:00 <elliott> interpret /that/ sentence as you will
23:55:07 <Sasha> elliott: What about paper monies?
23:55:12 <quintopia> okay, fine. editing for publishing-in-pdf-form-in-print-like-formats-for-an-online-journal then
23:55:21 <elliott> Sasha: not real, the only real money i have is electronics
23:55:32 <Sasha> and what about books?
23:55:35 <elliott> quintopia: yes. well, with the memoir class probably. and other packages. but yes, i just use latex.
23:55:41 <elliott> definitely latex for books
23:55:47 <elliott> origami is based on a false assumption (that paper exists)
23:55:54 <elliott> napkins aren't made out of paper where i come from.
23:56:01 <elliott> they're made out of soft wood.
23:56:02 <Goosey> Including the languages I'm learning
23:56:06 <Sasha> I have never seen a nonpaper napkin
23:56:07 <quintopia> i tried folding a kindle once. the results were quite satisfying
23:56:17 <Goosey> I almost know 17 languages :D
23:56:27 <quintopia> i can't believe sahsa has never seen a cloth napkin. he must be poor.
23:56:37 <Goosey> Prolog, Common Lisp, Haskell, C, C++, C#, Java, Python, Assembly, Brainfuck, Perl, Befunge, Scheme, Forth, Bash and Batch, and a bit of HTML/CSS
23:56:48 <Sasha> quintopia: No, just don't go out often
23:57:02 <Goosey> I'm learning Haskell, Forth, Perl and Befunge
23:57:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well i "like" it like i like tesseracts
23:57:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the fun sort of origami with regular solids and things.
23:57:18 <elliott> Goosey: is batch actually turing complete. also, which assembly
23:57:49 <Sasha> quintopia: Seeing things involves looking at them
23:57:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Goosey, neither HTML nor CSS are programming languages.
23:58:03 <Sasha> and none of those are real languages
23:58:09 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: there's this guy who made a full-size cuckoo clock out of single giant piece of paper without cutting. i wish i could find that website again.
23:58:26 <Goosey> besides in 15, give me a break :D
23:58:58 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: uh, no. it's paper. contiguous paper. ...i don't even know how you could ask that.
23:59:03 <Sasha> quintopia: I would reverse-engineer the shit out of that fucker
23:59:17 <elliott> <Sasha> and none of those are real languages
23:59:24 <elliott> what, prolog? haskell? forth?
23:59:37 <elliott> which of these are not real languages
23:59:45 <elliott> Goosey: no perl is an elaborate prank >:)
23:59:51 <elliott> Sasha: i see; name a real language
00:00:10 <elliott> that barely anybody speaks
00:00:24 <elliott> well that's useful but ugly.
00:00:28 <elliott> we should just talk in haskell.
00:01:07 <Goosey> I knw 3 languages that are real
00:01:09 <elliott> quintopia: sure. you go first.
00:01:20 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: C++ is fine as the C++ of the language world.
00:01:22 <elliott> quintopia: (an illustration of what happens if you have two mutually recursive functions outputting infinite lists with no starter elements in either)
00:01:23 <Goosey> English, Spanish, Japanese, but I'm not so good at spanish :D
00:01:25 <Phantom_Hoover> It's bloated, it sucks, and everyone uses it through sheer force of weirdness.
00:01:29 <elliott> <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: C++ is fine as the C++ of the language world.
00:01:33 <elliott> sort of like the moron of the people world?
00:01:58 <elliott> great, last message is about C++
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00:02:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so: what are you going to do?
00:02:10 <Sasha> What's the Esperanto of the computer world?
00:02:13 <Vorpal> personally I will sleep
00:02:51 <quintopia> and the opposite of esperanto, whatever that is, is INTERCAL
00:03:22 <Phantom_Hoover> OO.o actually does have one use: twiddling with weird fonds.
00:03:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, abiword could do that?
00:04:04 <quintopia> you just implied that twiddling with weird fonts was somehow useful.
00:04:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed
00:04:50 <Vorpal> quintopia, and isn't it?
00:05:07 <Vorpal> quintopia, I use Computer Modern and that is it
00:05:30 <Vorpal> if it worked for Knuth it works for me
00:05:50 <quintopia> i forget what i'm using here, but for most stuff i'm using droid sans because it is very legible at small sizes
00:07:01 <quintopia> and droid sans looks pretty okay anti-aliased too.
00:07:38 <quintopia> it uses the colors as separate components?
00:07:52 <Vorpal> quintopia, oh for *on screen*?
00:07:59 <Vorpal> dejavu sans mono or dejavu sans then
00:08:23 <quintopia> i think that's what i may be using in the terminal. maybe.
00:08:48 <quintopia> in all other apps, droid sans (i switched *from* deja vu sans)
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00:09:33 <quintopia> also, that link is neat. i can actually read that!
00:09:34 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, it works by using the 3 subpixels to get the horizontal resolution.
00:10:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I can't read it. Too high res on this monitor
00:10:34 <Vorpal> (114 dpi or something such)
00:10:40 <Vorpal> let me try it on my desktop
00:10:46 <Vorpal> (which is 96 dpi or such)
00:10:53 <Vorpal> hm, some letters on that
00:12:09 <FireFly|n900> There was a tech demo for the Nintendo DS rendering a font with subpixels a few years ago
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00:15:23 <Vorpal> FireFly|n900, you have one too?
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00:20:55 <Goosey> I can barely read that font
00:21:06 <Goosey> but then again, I'm blind in one eye
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00:53:47 <augur> http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/7473206-anticipation-builds-for-dec-2-nasa-news-conference-on-astrobiology-finding-related-to-extraterrestrial-life
00:54:43 <Goosey> What do you think is a good way to manipulate a java irc bot that supports a form of bytecode
00:55:42 <Sgeo> How would blindness in one eye affect ability to see that?
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00:56:38 <Goosey> Makes it harder to see :/
01:11:01 <pikhq> http://www.level3.com/index.cfm?pageID=491&PR=962
01:11:24 <pikhq> Dammit Level 3, you should've just cut them off.
01:11:40 <pikhq> Let them be completely disconnected from the Internet.
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03:38:25 <Sgeo> <3 fooplot.com
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04:40:48 <Goosey> Guys, I have a good recommendation for you.
04:40:54 <Goosey> Don't joke about having sex...
04:41:15 <Goosey> Sometimes they will say yes when you don't expect it, and all other times you will feel pain...
04:41:23 <Goosey> Loss-Loss situation...
04:41:41 <myndzi> will your mom forgive you?
04:42:53 <pikhq> Goosey: Some wouldn't call the first case a loss.
04:43:38 <Goosey> Yeah, well I'm all for doing it, but not if I hardly know them
04:44:10 <pikhq> Again. Some people beg to differ.
04:45:55 <Goosey> Some people have aids too, but that isn't my problem/
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04:46:37 <Sgeo> Some people use condoms. (Not that that's perfect, meh)
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05:05:00 <Goosey> is this a cool quote or what
05:05:21 <pikhq> Fairly mundane statement regarding copulation, seems to me.
05:05:41 <Goosey> "No matter the outcome, reaching it is always the best one can hope for."
05:05:46 <Goosey> somethign along the lines
05:05:50 <Goosey> I just said it at random
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05:25:31 <Sgeo> That... sounds wrong, but as though it's similar to a more inspirational statement.
05:42:34 <oklofok> you wouldn't have sex with someone you know?
05:44:10 <oklofok> Goosey: it has that profound feel to it
05:44:28 <oklofok> but it's possible it's actually stupid, have to think about it!
05:45:04 <oklofok> so what, like a hot girl comes and is like hey goosebumps wanna pump my goose
05:45:16 <oklofok> nah you could have like aids and shit
05:46:39 <Goosey> while I would like a girl to be pretty(and to be honest probably would need one)
05:46:44 <Goosey> a pretty girl is attractive
05:49:15 <oklofok> just trying to figure you out
05:49:35 <Goosey> but a pretty girl I know = instant ecsasy
05:51:01 <oklofok> maybe sex is still a big deal to you?
05:51:05 <oklofok> that would definitely explain it
05:51:16 <Goosey> Well, probably as I have only done it once
05:51:21 <oklofok> it's not something you just happen to like to have every day
05:51:28 <Goosey> I still feel like its important to choose
05:51:29 <oklofok> okay then i have no quarrel with you
05:51:58 <oklofok> talk to me when you're 20, same drive, no rules
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05:52:15 <oklofok> a girl tells you they wanna fuck you still manage to rape here
05:53:05 <oklofok> they actually want to have sex
05:53:14 <oklofok> but you sex them up more than they wanted
05:53:36 <oklofok> i thought that was clear enough
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05:53:50 <oklofok> also it was a rape joke, in case you missed that
05:54:19 <oklofok> elliott is going to love this slowfest
05:55:56 <Sgeo> I don't think I can relate well to any sexual situations
05:56:02 <Sgeo> Except, of course, not having
05:57:28 <oklofok> obviously you have to have raped ppl to get that joke
05:58:05 <Sgeo> I'm just in a less than perfectly pleasant mood today
05:58:11 <Sgeo> Hopefully tomorrow I'll be giddy again
05:59:51 <oklofok> well if you don't find rape funny, there must be something wrong with you, yes
06:00:52 <oklofok> i just woke up, the world doesn't seem to have woken up yet but i like watching her sleep
06:01:25 <Sgeo> oklofok, I think I offended the girl I like this past Saturday
06:01:55 <oklofok> and were you all Sgeo like "did i offend you in some way?"
06:01:59 <Sgeo> I'm going to see her tomorrow (unless she was so disturbed that she decides to go someplace else)
06:02:08 <Sgeo> oklofok, I said Sorry
06:02:34 <Sgeo> Tried to point out that some information that she implied was private was visible on her profile
06:02:41 <Goosey> Anyways, being a guy and having had sex before, I'm deprived and in need
06:02:46 <Sgeo> (private from me, at least)
06:02:59 <Sgeo> don't know if it's supposed to be world-private
06:03:08 <oklofok> Goosey: there are websites full of women
06:03:21 <Goosey> No, porn doesn't do it...
06:03:49 <Goosey> And I don't need that.
06:04:02 <Goosey> I just need to coax this one girl into letting me in :P
06:04:32 <oklofok> yeah i hear the chase is fun too
06:04:42 <Sgeo> (Yes, I know that the similarity with "alarm" is completely superficial)
06:05:40 <oklofok> Sgeo: if you can see her profile, that's a valid comment
06:06:17 <Sgeo> When she tried to get clarification on what I meant, I tried to get clarification of her clarification request (not in these words)
06:06:52 <oklofok> maybe information sharing isn't exactly something she thinks about daily
06:07:18 <oklofok> so you were talking about a concept she's unfamiliar with, and you were being a total nerd about it and that was annoying
06:08:46 <oklofok> "LET US MODEL THE WORLD AS THIS LITTLE THING I CALL THE INFORMATION SHARING GRAPH (PATENT PENDING NAH I'M TOTALLY OPEN SOURCE DON'T WORRY), ..."
06:09:13 <oklofok> it would probably not be a graph actually
06:09:19 <oklofok> my bus leaves in two minutes
06:09:26 <oklofok> you have cheated me into missing it
06:10:29 <oklofok> i've heard there's another bus, but i never had to use it without supervision
06:14:46 <oklofok> i had a dream that i was in a train, and the tracks went through an ocean
06:15:00 <oklofok> and people surviving the trip was guaranteed as follows
06:15:06 <oklofok> (since the train didn't have a roof)
06:15:20 <oklofok> when they died, they respawned back on their seats
06:16:23 <oklofok> hmm there was another drowning dream that's not interesting enough to share, what's the meaning of drowning in dreams
06:16:43 <Sgeo> I had a dream about a dimension-travelling elevator
06:16:52 <oklofok> i also had lesbian sex in a dream
06:16:55 <Sgeo> And a library that it took you to that described all the dimensions
06:17:16 <Sgeo> Suddenly, my dream seems less interesting
06:17:35 <Sgeo> Also, don't miss your next bus
06:18:17 <oklofok> i thought the train thing was more interesting than the being a woman thing, also i think i was a man disguised as a woman
06:18:24 <oklofok> but i don't remember the details
06:32:51 <Goosey> moves this weekend, then her house
06:32:55 <Goosey> then lets see what happens :D
06:54:08 <Goosey> <Scythe`> What's the worst thing about being a redneck ?
06:54:09 <Goosey> <Scythe`> Tasting your dad's semen when you're eating out your sister
06:54:11 <Goosey> <Galdor> iim thinking.... how would you recognise it as your dads?
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10:51:15 <Ilari> Ah, Houston prediction of IPv4 depletion has added note that "run on the bank" scenario may have begun...
10:58:36 <fizzie> Hey, the Piet sqrt(-garfield) I did came out: http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=559
10:59:12 <Ilari> Of course, using more uncertain terms about deployiment schedules accelerating...
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12:37:10 <elliott> 18:42:34 <Goosey> Dislike....
12:37:29 <elliott> computational_linguists far predates the terrible though
12:37:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I have finally managed to expunge it from my RSS feed, and I feel like a great weight has lifted.
12:43:27 <Phantom_Hoover> In other news, I think esolang development has stagnated into eternal Brainfuck derivatives.
12:43:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Suggested solution: expunge all notions of Brainfuck from the collective psyche.
12:44:41 <elliott> 22:15:14 <oerjan> interestingly, if you had a library of all possible text files arranged alphabetically, _finding_ anything interesting in it would be as hard as inventing it yourself
12:44:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: *brainfuck
12:45:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: please capitalise it correctly
12:45:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "The brainfuck compiler knows the following instructions:" --Urban Müller, README, brainfuck
12:45:43 <Phantom_Hoover> 22:15:14 <oerjan> interestingly, if you had a library of all possible text files arranged alphabetically, _finding_ anything interesting in it would be as hard as inventing it yourself ← surely the set of all possible text files is uncountably infinite?
12:45:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (It is probably "Brainfuck" at the start of the sentence; i.e. normal noun rules.)
12:46:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no, but the set of all possible infinite text files is, ofc
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12:49:24 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> 22:15:14 <oerjan> interestingly, if you had a library of all possible text files arranged alphabetically, _finding_ anything interesting in it would be as hard as inventing it yourself ← surely the set of all possible text files is uncountably infinite?
12:49:43 <oerjan> elliott deviously did not paste my correction to that statement
12:50:10 <elliott> 22:15:52 <oerjan> *text files of a certain length
12:57:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, brainfuck no longer officially exists is what I'm getting at.
12:59:55 <Phantom_Hoover> So, I suggest that its page on the wiki be deleted and anyone mentioning it in the channel be kickbanned.
13:00:11 <elliott> "Self-hosting Lisp-to-C compiler in 384 lines of Lisp"
13:00:17 <elliott> Wow! A programming language LANGUAGE!
13:00:26 <elliott> "Mozilla is Designing a New Programming Language Language Called Rust"
13:00:27 <elliott> Wow! A programming language LANGUAGE!
13:00:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i agree; wait, what no longer officially exists?
13:00:54 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i'll get to it right after i kickban you for stalking me on Godel's Letter
13:01:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: damn you should have said brainfuck and got oerjan to kickban you
13:01:16 <elliott> oerjan: did he do anything other than post one comment
13:01:34 <oerjan> elliott: no but it was still a bit embarassing
13:01:49 <elliott> oerjan: yeah i wouldn't want to be associated with all the morons in here either in good company
13:02:22 <elliott> oerjan: to be fair, oklofok was considering visiting you. :P
13:03:26 <elliott> oerjan got eaten by a bear.
13:03:55 <elliott> oerjan: apparently he was going to be perfectly nice right after he forced you to let him in
13:04:08 <elliott> oerjan: you missed a life experience dude, should have stayed off irc for a couple more weeks
13:04:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no, that's the interesting thing
13:04:50 <oerjan> the farmers keep complaining about mauled sheep
13:05:12 <oerjan> although the blame for that also includes wolves
13:05:15 <elliott> oerjan: that's just to cover up their unsavoury pastime, isn't it?
13:05:56 <oerjan> the wolves were relatively recently deliberately reintroduced after having been extinct in norway, iirc
13:06:28 <elliott> oerjan: "you know what his town needs?" "what?" "wolves."
13:08:58 <oerjan> they usually try to keep them out of towns i think. norway _is_ rather sparsely populated compared to most of europe
13:09:10 <elliott> oerjan: if i come to norway will everyone welcome me
13:09:26 <oerjan> ...i didn't know you were a wolf
13:10:16 <oerjan> some farmers are _very_ angry at the wolf project, there have been poachings
13:10:40 <elliott> insert implication that farmers have intercourse with the wolves
13:10:59 <oerjan> so if you were a wolf you should probably stay away
13:11:44 <oerjan> norwegians are relatively introverted so most will probably ignore you if you don't talk directly to them
13:12:13 <oerjan> talking to strangers on a bus is not generally done, here, for example, unlike some countries
13:12:22 <elliott> oerjan: unlike finland, where they actually have an in-built person sensor that treats other people like anti-gravity
13:14:51 <oerjan> i don't know how it is in england, you're still a northwestern european country...
13:15:27 <oerjan> so i'd assume you're not terribly high on the extroversion scale either
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13:49:24 <elliott> pikhq: So, I solved the fakeroot problem ("you need --prefix=/ for libraries and bad programs and stuff, but then make install won't go into the nice happy temporarily build root").
13:49:41 <elliott> Technically, I solved it by STEALING someone else's solution cunningly, by way of reading a man page.
13:54:21 <elliott> "They could just use the standard ISO code for gender: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5218" <-- standard is actually the ISO code for sex
13:55:46 <elliott> "Scientifically speaking there are only two possible genders; xx and xy corresponding to male or female." What is it with people who have no idea what the difference between "gender" and "sex" is X_X (and even "chromosomes" in this case, see: intersex)
14:00:18 <elliott> http://three.sentenc.es/ "In which we try and make email as useless as we can"
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14:11:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I assume that the frigid northlands of England are still snowy, then?
14:11:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Indeed. May the snow never end, for it brings luscious late wakeups and long fruitful days.
14:11:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Playing in the snow is presumably decadent and capitalist?
14:12:46 <elliott> Well, yes, that, but mostly cold.
14:13:06 <elliott> Also less fun than programming.
14:18:40 <elliott> simp (Conj xs) = Conj (map simp xs)
14:18:47 <elliott> quick, someone make the data-type Term have simp embedded into it
14:18:54 <elliott> I don't feel like calling simp all the time
14:19:39 <elliott> oh, wait, i don't need that
14:25:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Implementing Anemone in Haskell to write a self-interpreter.
14:25:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (It is already implemented, but the implementation is hideous.)
14:26:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Anemone
14:26:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Basically the purest expression of term rewriting.
14:29:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, in such a language could you write a program for any arbitrary syntax?
14:29:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Umm, not really.
14:29:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, sort of...
14:29:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But not in the way you're thinking of. Try Thue. :p
14:30:21 <elliott> Constant Variable LAMBDA-PARAMETERS-LIMIT
14:30:22 <elliott> implementation-dependent, but not smaller than 50.
14:30:22 <elliott> A positive integer that is the upper exclusive bound on the number of parameter names that can appear in a single lambda list.
14:30:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Of course with Thue your "syntax" has to be hideous because all you can do is replace constant strings with constant strings.
14:30:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also, define that.
14:31:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I am not sure.
14:38:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I still have this yearning to prove something meaningful in Coq...
14:39:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: specificity :: VTerm -> CTerm -> Maybe Integer
14:39:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do some nice purely-functional data structure in it and prove your operations correct, then extract them to Haskell, write a small wrapper library around them in Haskell to make the interface slightly more Haskelly, and put it on Hackage.
14:40:07 <elliott> VTerms are terms that can have placeholders in them, like Foo and Bar. CTerms can't.
14:40:36 <elliott> VTerms are the left hand side of rules, basically.
14:45:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wanna extend my function to have an extra result?!?!
14:45:56 <elliott> specificityAndBindings :: VTerm -> CTerm -> Maybe (Integer, [Rule])
14:52:14 <oklofok> "<Goosey> then lets see what happens :D" <<< remember to share all the details
14:52:29 <oklofok> you can do it in pm if you don't want all the nosy people on this channel to know
14:52:58 <elliott> *Main Data.Maybe> sab (lhs idR) foo
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15:07:26 <oklofok> elliott: if i want to reference multiple lines, i usually just take the last one if there's no good representative, and the lines are too long for copying all of them
15:07:55 <elliott> oklofok: we need a way to refer to lines without including them, and then we can set up all our clients to turn them into links to the logs
15:08:54 <oklofok> yes, that would be a nice feature, although preferably it wouldn't just be a link, but just a handle to the object representing that point of the logs; then you could just use the standard object viewer to look at what's being referenced
15:09:17 <oklofok> did i mention there's an os around this feature
15:09:55 <elliott> I propose >>[days:]lineno[-lineno]{"," lineno[-lineno]}, where if omitted, the days part is "0:"; daysago is either a negative number e.g. "-3" meaning "N days ago" i.e. 3 days ago there, or a date in the "YY.MM.DD" syntax clog uses; lineno is the line number of the first message referenced, and the second lineno is the last message referenced; only one line is referenced if this is omitted
15:09:58 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, while we're at it we should at LaTeX renderers to all of our clients.
15:10:00 <elliott> multiple ranges can be separated by ,
15:10:06 <oklofok> \o/ i can finally officially "apply" for a bachelor's degree! fucking paperwork
15:10:34 <elliott> >>-3:13-42,192-197 references the lines 13 42 and lines 192 to 197 (inclusive) in the clog log three days behind the current log
15:10:44 <elliott> the current log is 10.11.30, therefore it references 10.11.27
15:11:01 <elliott> the client just has to link each range separately, and go to a page which has the lines in question highlighted
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15:11:11 <elliott> <oklofok> yes, that would be a nice feature, although preferably it wouldn't just be a link, but just a handle to the object representing that point of the logs; then you could just use the standard object viewer to look at what's being referenced
15:11:12 <elliott> <oklofok> did i mention there's an os around this feature
15:11:15 <elliott> oklofok: is it called oklOS
15:11:38 <elliott> oklofok: funny, 'cuz it looks like elliottos too :P
15:11:43 <elliott> i guess i just steal your ideas constantly huh
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15:13:03 <elliott> bestsab :: [Rule] -> CTerm -> (CTerm, [Rule])
15:13:03 <elliott> maximumBy (\(i,_,_) (j,_,_) -> compare i j) .
15:13:04 <elliott> map (\r -> sab (lhs r) t >>= \(i,bs) -> Just (i,bs,rhs r)) $ rs
15:13:07 <elliott> TODO: make this function not hideously ugly
15:14:00 <oklofok> elliott: well were the people who wrote the bible stealing?
15:14:10 <elliott> oklofok: stealing my heart, yes
15:14:30 <fizzie> elliott: Are you related to this "Elliott Associates" who financed Attachmate's buyout of Novell? Is this a hint of conspiraracy I smell?
15:14:36 <elliott> fizzie: Yes; I am also Conal Elliott.
15:14:52 <elliott> In fact, I am everyone in #esoteric apart from oklofok, and I'm working on that one.
15:15:02 <fizzie> I just saw the two t's, you see.
15:15:31 <elliott> one day i'll be rich and famous and you guys will be going on about my Ts and I'll kill you all to death
15:15:34 <elliott> then what bitches THEN WHAT
15:16:12 <elliott> so does anyone want to hear about how i solved a very boring problem
15:16:25 <oklofok> butt elliott: ttoillet tub
15:16:37 <oklofok> i solved two interesting problems today
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15:16:51 <oklofok> but you wouldn't understand the problem statement
15:17:01 <elliott> is that addressed to everyone or just me specifically :D
15:17:05 <fizzie> Incidentally, I heard a rumour that some researcher that-a-way <-- had done some experiments on unsupervised IRC conversation topic disentanglements; i.e. you take a pile of chatlogs and it separates overlapping conversations. (Probably not very well.)
15:17:18 <oklofok> maybe i shouldn't say *i* solved them, it was a joint effort, i just talk a lot
15:17:42 <oklofok> elliott: i think mostly you
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15:18:04 <oklofok> even oerjan couldn't understand the problem statement as it is stated
15:18:17 <elliott> fizzie: dude i said we needed like, a client that did that!
15:18:23 <oklofok> but if i define the concepts, not really that complicated
15:18:31 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't notice you said that.
15:18:32 <elliott> fizzie: except it was more manual and probably a pain to use because i don't believe an algo could do that very well without strong ai :P
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15:19:06 <fizzie> I think it was mostly topic-keywordy sort of thing, so it probably wouldn't indeed do very well.
15:19:27 <oklofok> a maximal family of pairwise orthogonal latin squares exists iff a (n^2, n, 1) design exists iff a (n^2 + n + 1, n + 1, 1) design exists
15:19:51 <fizzie> This was Long Ago(tm) -- like, a year -- it just came up in the context of speech separation (of overlapping audio signals with multiple speakers), which is somewhat more feasible.
15:20:46 <elliott> oklofok: you're a latin square
15:22:56 <oklofok> anyway that problem is a lot of fun, i can define the concepts if anyone wants to try it
15:23:31 <elliott> pikhq: i am so tempted to get rid of dependencies entirely :D
15:24:50 <oklofok> an (v, k, l) design is: (S, (B_i)), where |S| = v, |B_i| = k, and for every x != y \in S, {x, y} \subset B_i for exactly l different B_i
15:25:35 <oklofok> latin square = sudoku grid except you don't look at the 3x3 squares
15:25:44 <oklofok> so every row has one copy of each number
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15:27:02 <oklofok> two latin squares L_1 and L_2 are orthogonal, if for every (x, y) \in A^2, where A are the numbers used to fill the squares, there is exactly one (i, j) such that L_1[i, j] = x, L_2[i, j] = y
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15:27:28 <oklofok> (afaik this is not orthogonality w.r.t. any dot product)
15:27:41 <oklofok> (i don't even know how to make lats a vector space)
15:29:07 <oklofok> anyway also you need to know this, not that hard to prove: a (n^2, n, 1) design is always "resolvable", that is, you can partition the set ofe B_i into "parallel classes" D_j such that the union of D_j is S and all B_i \in D_j are disjoint
15:30:14 <oklofok> so for instance that classic problem of having teams and having each one compete with one other team each day, and just once a day etc, is the problem of "finding a resolvable (n, 2, 1) design"
15:30:33 <oklofok> although obviously there's a unique (n, 2, 1) design, so basically you just need to show those are always resolvable
15:32:08 <oklofok> if n is even then it's possible
15:32:23 <oklofok> because you can't make a parallel class
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15:36:10 <elliott> <Jafet> elliott: (snd *** snd.fst) . maximumBy (compare `on` fst `on` fst) . catMaybes . map (ap ((>>=) . flip sab t . lhs) ((Just .) . flip (,) . rhs) $ rs
15:38:40 <elliott> pikhq: :( busybox lacks a useful feature
15:41:29 <elliott> pikhq: GNU tar lets you do "--numeric-owner --owner=root --group=root" to produce a tarball, as an unprivileged user, that has all its files owned by root.
15:41:35 <elliott> pikhq: This is, of course, very useful when creating packages.
15:41:43 <elliott> pikhq: busybox tar is considerably cleaner, and does not have this at all.
15:41:56 <elliott> pikhq: The alternative is chmodding everything to 0:0 beforehand, which, of course, requires you to be root.
15:42:24 <pikhq> Ah, right. That's a genuinely useful feature of GNU tar.
15:42:44 <elliott> pikhq: [[Note that zsync only (currently) supports single-file downloads. I am currently of the opinion that this is sufficient: it is a file distribution method, and, like .tar.gz, it is up to the downloader to worry about extraction, permisions, etc. zsync is not competing with rsync for synchronising directory trees between machines and over shell accounts.]]
15:42:52 <pikhq> Unlike, say, its ability to handle tarballs split across multiple discs/tapes.
15:42:57 <elliott> I USE THAT ALL THE TIME DUDE :P
15:43:10 <pikhq> (this *would* actually be useful if it WORKED)
15:43:34 <pikhq> (not very, but hey. It would at least have valid hysterical raisins.)
15:43:43 <elliott> pikhq: In other news, I solved the fakeroot problem ("I need to compile this package with --prefix=/, because of libraries and bad programs and stuff which change compilation result depending on the prefix. However, I can't install to /, because I have to install to a temporary build root to slurp all the files into a package.").
15:43:51 <elliott> pikhq: By "solved" I mean "stole a solution of".
15:44:03 <elliott> pikhq: ./configure --prefix=/ && make && make install prefix=/temporary/build/root
15:44:24 <pikhq> Yeah, works perfectly well for well-behaved packages.
15:44:35 <elliott> Credits due to Bennett Todd, author of bpm and maintainer of Bent Linux, whose bpmbuild(1) man page includes the following:
15:44:37 <elliott> tar xzvf bash-2.05b.tar.gz && cd bash-2.05b &&
15:44:37 <elliott> ./configure --enable-static-link --prefix=/usr --with-curses &&
15:44:37 <elliott> make && make prefix=$BPM_ROOT/usr install
15:44:46 <pikhq> The existence of non-well-behaved packages fucks things up, though.
15:44:56 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, well, fuck them :P
15:45:12 <pikhq> (this is, believe it or not, one of the things preventing GNU System from having even an alpha release)
15:45:12 <oklofok> so erm S = {0, ..., n-2, :D}, and D_i (i = 1, ..., n - 1) is just {x, i - x} for all x except if x = i-x then have the pair {x, :D} for the special element :D, then D_i is a parallel class for all i, and {x, y} \in D_i \cap D_j => well clearly i = j
15:45:34 <pikhq> (though they're crazy folks who insist on GNU software, which isn't all well-behaved. So.)
15:45:39 <oklofok> so yeah they are always resolvable
15:46:04 <elliott> pikhq: is that like, HURD + gnu coreutils + gnu inetutils + ...?
15:46:11 <elliott> and is that an actual project?
15:46:23 <elliott> pikhq: I mean, HURD's official OS is Debian.
15:46:36 <pikhq> elliott: An actual project by a handful of people to get a GNU OS working.
15:46:41 <pikhq> elliott: Maintainer is ams.
15:46:48 <elliott> pikhq: oh, sounds lovely. got any links?
15:47:17 <pikhq> http://www.gnu.org/software/packaging/
15:47:25 <elliott> pikhq: also, doesn't Debian GNU/Hurd with a custom package set constitute a GNU System?
15:47:54 <pikhq> elliott: Meh, who cares.
15:48:20 <elliott> pikhq: yes, but their project is stillborn!
15:48:53 <elliott> pikhq: anyway ams is the worst person ever.
15:49:00 <pikhq> Debian GNU/Hurd at least works. I wasn't able to build elinks on the last GNU System snapshot...
15:49:17 <elliott> elinks isn;t a gnu project its fucking EIVL!L!P!!
15:49:46 <pikhq> elliott: The worst part is, he is reasonably skilled. He just should not ever be allowed to talk to anyone other than a project maintainer with thick skin...
15:50:00 <elliott> pikhq: Don't say that, I count as a project maintainer. Sorta.
15:50:04 <oklofok> now that i have your undivided attention, let's prove that (n^2, n, 1) designs are resolvable: consider an arbitrary B_i, and x \not\in B_i, then for each y \in B_i there's a unique B_j that contains {x, y}, and for y, z \in B_i these are different. so there are exactly n B_j containing x obtained like this, and n+1 altogether (by a simple calculation), so in fact we can define B_i ~ B_j iff B_i = B_j, or B_i \cap B_j = \empty, and tur
15:50:16 <elliott> pikhq: who does the superunprivileged livecd?
15:50:19 <pikhq> elliott: Regarding the project in question, of course.
15:50:33 <oklofok> so by taking the equivalence classes, we actually get parallel classes
15:50:48 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, but I am uninterested in anything ams has to say about my program, even if it's a bug report :P
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15:51:10 <elliott> pikhq: he actually told #nixos they should become a gnu project by stopping advertising proprietary software (i.e. having nixpkgs for things)
15:51:19 <elliott> everyone just lol'd at him and he brought out the /ignore
15:51:43 <elliott> pikhq: when someone said "sure that'd be cool, only for hosting :P" in reply to ftp.gnu.org, he went on about how it should be about RESPECTING YOUR USERS
15:51:52 <elliott> pikhq: by pretending proprietary software doesn't exist and refusing to help the user use it!
15:51:59 <elliott> Condescending control is RESPECT.
15:52:07 <elliott> oklofok: i'm totally paying attention*
15:52:11 <pikhq> I'm one of the few people that he's managed to have a long conversation with online...
15:52:27 <pikhq> The man is such an amazing zealot.
15:52:53 <oklofok> why is it an equivalence relation? glad i asked, the reason for transitivity is: let B_i \cap B_j empty, B_j \cap B_k empty (this is the only nontrivial part), then if B_i \cap B_k is nonempty, but B_i != B_k, then any x \in B_i \cap B_k contradicts the property we proved earlier, since x \not\in B_j and therefore a unique B_m contains x but doesn't intersect B_j
15:53:14 <oklofok> i don't really care if anyone's listening, i just enjoy flooding
15:53:23 <pikhq> (the trick, BTW, is to admit that proprietary software is FUNDAMENTALLY HORRIFYING, and you really truly dislike the PAIN AND AGONY of using it.)
15:53:32 <elliott> pikhq: what on earth did you talk about?
15:53:34 <oklofok> none of this actually makes sense
15:53:41 <pikhq> elliott: At the time, I gave a shit about Hurd.
15:53:48 <elliott> pikhq: ...why, and how long ago was this
15:53:53 <elliott> and can i go back and murder you at that point
15:53:53 <pikhq> elliott: Few years ago.
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15:53:57 <pikhq> elliott: I was curious.
15:54:15 <elliott> pikhq: if you were curious about the composition of feces would you engage in a conversation with it? :D
15:54:28 <pikhq> elliott: At this time, I still believed that GNU wrote absolutely wonderful software.
15:54:54 <pikhq> Now, I just get depressed at how GNU's software is often better than their competition.
15:55:09 <elliott> pikhq: Was this around the time when you told me about how wonderful autotools were and I was a horrible person for writing a one-line makefile because it didn't use $(CC) and $(CFLAGS)?
15:55:12 <elliott> I believe it went something like
15:55:28 <oklofok> Hurd sounds a bit like Hird
15:55:31 <elliott> which apparently was an affront against portability :P
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15:55:51 <pikhq> elliott: Make it this: "foo: foo.c"
15:55:51 <elliott> pikhq: because you'd have to run the command manually if your cc doesn't do -O2?
15:56:03 <elliott> no, make's implicit rules have ugly extra spaces in their output
15:56:07 <elliott> and i'd have to set CFLAGS anyway ;P
15:56:22 <pikhq> Let the builder set the CFLAGS.
15:56:57 <elliott> pikhq: no, because as a distro maintainer i don't feel like figuring out good cflags for every package
15:57:09 <oklofok> it's like there's an oklo channel and another channel you ppl are on, and occasionally we exchange pleasantries briefly
15:57:19 <elliott> pikhq: (OTOH i do want to force -Os in my distro but i'll figure that out later)
15:57:23 <pikhq> elliott: That's why you choose a sane default.
15:57:24 <oklofok> reference each other's stuff without actually even trying to understand what it's about
15:57:39 <elliott> pikhq: cfunge existing is a pretty convincing argument against letting people set CFLAGS :P
15:57:57 <pikhq> elliott: And if the package really could use a specific feature it should *append* the flag for that feature to its CFLAGS.
15:58:22 <pikhq> elliott: This behavior, incidentally, is what Gentoo damned well relies on.
15:59:07 <elliott> pikhq: really? 'cuz every package ever breaks it
15:59:35 <pikhq> Small handful of them actually break it, and Gentoo submits patches upstream to fix that.
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16:00:17 <pikhq> (just about everything using autotools or cmake already handles it)
16:01:17 <elliott> pikhq: Actually, "CFLAGS='foo' ./configure" not replacing CFLAGS PISSES ME OFF.
16:01:33 <pikhq> Okay, yeah, configure is still retarded about it.
16:01:48 <pikhq> But only sometimes.
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16:01:59 <elliott> pikhq: Yet that is what Gentoo relies on!
16:01:59 <pikhq> (the rest of the time, it replaces the CFLAGS *and* sets that in the makefile)
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16:03:03 <elliott> pikhq: so um inferior-haskell has an INSANELY USEFUL FEATURE i have NEVER noticed before
16:03:12 <elliott> pikhq: get an error sometime, then middle-click the filename in the error
16:03:16 <elliott> watch the file buffer highlight the invalid expression
16:07:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Horribly long things.
16:07:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: We're talking -O3 -funsafe-math -fomit-function-pointer -funroll-loops -fadvanced-maths -fcrazy-maths -fyour-mother-and-a-horse -fit-never-happened -flanguid-squids ...
16:07:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And because Vorpal thinks that writing a Befunge-98 implementation that focuses on crazy and mostly pointless micro-optimisation instead of useful macro-optimisation constitutes "esoteric".
16:08:13 <nopseudoidea> Hi, I'm new and I'd like to learn LOLCODE, is there any good tutorial ?
16:08:55 <Phantom_Hoover> It cannot be called esoteric in even the vaguest sense of the word.
16:09:12 <Phantom_Hoover> It's just a bland scripting language with stupid syntax.
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16:09:25 <elliott> nopseudoidea: you don't want to learn lolcode, learn Underload!
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16:26:32 <oklofok> hello oerjan, did you read my log ramblings?
16:26:47 <oklofok> they were a bit more specific than usually
16:27:04 <elliott> maximumBy (compare `on` fst `on` snd) .
16:27:04 <elliott> map (\(Rule lhs rhs) -> (rhs,) `fmap` sab lhs t) $ rs
16:28:19 <oerjan> ... if you swap the arguments and drop rs you don't need the $ rs at the end
16:29:24 <elliott> Hey, if I match on VTerms too I can do SPECIALISATION
16:29:28 <elliott> oklofok:sab :: VTerm -> CTerm -> Maybe (Integer, [Rule])
16:29:29 <elliott> sab (VT (Name s)) (CT (Name t))
16:29:29 <elliott> sab (VT (App a b)) (CT (App c d)) =
16:29:33 <elliott> return (1 + ac + bd, bs1 ++ bs2)
16:29:35 <elliott> sab (Var s) x = Just (0, [Rule (name s) x])
16:29:39 <elliott> oklofok: sab = specificity and bindings
16:29:44 <elliott> specificity = "how closely does this pattern match this expression"
16:29:49 <elliott> (we rewrite according to the most specific match)
16:29:55 <elliott> bindings = variable bindings caused by placeholders in the pattern
16:30:10 <elliott> hey, if I do all this on VTerms too I can do specialisation :)
16:30:36 <elliott> oh dear, my thing fails on an empty list
16:32:20 <oerjan> <oklofok> reference each other's stuff without actually even trying to understand what it's about
16:32:27 <oerjan> wait are you on to me or something?
16:33:49 <oklofok> but i tend not to make jokes, i just... say something for the heck of it
16:40:08 <oerjan> no, somewhere _completely_ different
16:40:11 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought about orthogonal persistence and I have a question.
16:40:30 <elliott> Vorpal: uh oh. uh, i mean, go on./
16:41:45 <Vorpal> elliott, assume for the discussion that the operating system with orthogonal persistence isn't completely bug free. This is probably a reasonable assumption. Further assume that there is a bug that in some way locks the computer up or crashes it, say a logic error in the code to talk to some hardware causing a system freeze.
16:42:33 <Vorpal> elliott, then a normal system can just be rebooted basically (some file system cleanup needed, journaling helps there). But wouldn't orthogonal persistence bring you back to the state just before the crash? Which might cause it to trigger again
16:43:03 <Vorpal> making recovery from it somewhat harder.
16:43:34 <Vorpal> elliott, how do you deal with such a situation?
16:43:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Sure, that's a possibility. In that case you'd either want to boot it in such a way that it kills whatever's about to make it crash before anything else, or tell a versioned system to roll back to whatever ago.
16:43:53 <elliott> There are various ways one would solve it.
16:44:11 <Vorpal> indeed there are ways to solve it, which method would you plan
16:44:27 <elliott> Vorpal: i dunno, i'd have to see. :p
16:44:38 <elliott> if i knew how to do it all, it'd be done a lot quicker.
16:45:47 <Vorpal> elliott, the ability to clean out a fucked up state by rebooting is after all a strength of the current paradigm. And even if you can ensure the software is bug free, the hardware might not be
16:45:51 <elliott> Vorpal: But hey, if we're talking about crash recovery, then anything that doesn't involve a deterministic system crash -- losing power, hardware glitch, etc. -- is instantly recovered to a very recent state, UNLIKE existing systems :P
16:46:04 <Vorpal> elliott, that is a good point yes
16:46:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Really though, when an OS gets mature enough, bugs that cause a deterministic crash without strange configuration become especially rare. Especially if your kernel is a lot simpler than, say, Linux.
16:46:43 <Vorpal> elliott, but I think I had more crashes linked to software than I had due to power failures or hardware errors.
16:46:49 <elliott> (When was the last system-crashing bug in Mach found? Typical implementations of L4?)
16:46:50 <Vorpal> very often graphics drivers.
16:47:03 <elliott> Hell, there's a formally verified implementation of L4.
16:47:57 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you still need to do boot in some sense. Bringing network up, asking for IP over dhcp and so on
16:48:37 <Vorpal> hm how will you deal with networking there. That you can't persist as easily
16:48:41 <elliott> Vorpal: technically that isn't booting at all...
16:48:53 <Vorpal> elliott, well, you would also be setting video mode and so on
16:49:03 <elliott> that's just the network controller noticing that the network is down and that it's set to keep the network connected
16:49:06 <elliott> it would, therefore, connect it
16:49:42 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what about the stage where things are loaded into RAM?
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16:50:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that's part of the low-level code and can be as dirty and impure as it likes
16:50:31 <elliott> Vorpal: also note that most kernels and drivers are written in C which is a colossally unreliable language :)
16:50:38 <Vorpal> elliott, in any case, you need to initialise hardware. Set up video modes, DMA mappings, load things into RAM, lots of things like that.
16:50:44 <Vorpal> elliott, yes very true
16:50:54 <elliott> Vorpal: whereas everything's in a pure functional language here, and there's strong separation of privileges, so one bad driver is unlikely to be able to take the system down
16:51:05 <elliott> it's just the very low-level OS code and the compiler you have to trust, both written in x86-64 assembly
16:51:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well, you can rely on any language
16:51:38 <Phantom_Hoover> What you can't rely on is that the programmer will have been sane with it.
16:51:47 <elliott> by "rely on [language]" I of course mean "you can't rely on a typical program in [language]"
16:51:52 <elliott> in C, s/typical/almost any/
16:52:18 <Vorpal> elliott, also what about hardware changes. How would you deal with that?
16:52:30 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. "you can't rely on almost anyone to write a decent program in C".
16:52:30 <elliott> Vorpal: what do you mean, how would I handle it?
16:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you change {graphics card, sound card, network magic, whatever}
16:52:57 <Vorpal> as in, shut down, replace some component, boot up. Something that would change stuff. Such as replacing the monitor with a smaller one. Or replacing the GPU with a completely different one
16:54:00 <elliott> Vorpal: The system will notice -- as it would if you hotplugged a device when the computer is running -- that the hardware configuration state has changed, and act accordingly.
16:54:10 <elliott> For instance, it will likely unload the existing graphics driver and load a more appropriate one.
16:54:26 <elliott> Presumably the hardware configuration state monitor and act-upon-er would be configurable.
16:54:38 <elliott> (Plugging in a USB stick would cause it to notice and act on it, too.)
16:55:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, would you be able to make a USB stick orthogonal persistable too?
16:55:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Um, maybe. You'd have to tell it what objects you want to persist to it.
16:56:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. you make a namespace corresponding to the device, then anything within that namespace is persisted to it rather than the main hard drive.
16:56:22 <elliott> BTW, I think I might do versioning simply by having everything be immutable; therefore, when you copy a value but change some part of it, that new value gets copied too. :P
16:58:14 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, are you dead set on making this impossible to implement without kidnapping everyone with an IQ of more than 100 and setting them to work on it?
16:58:27 <Phantom_Hoover> And getting the rest of the population to support that half?
16:58:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: none of this is difficult really
16:58:43 <elliott> it's mostly working around x86-64 being stupid
16:58:56 <Vorpal> elliott, does that mean you support hot-plugged CPUs too?
16:59:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The most difficult thing is the language at this point.
16:59:08 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i don't you'd want anyone below 130 touching this ;D
16:59:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, obviously you couldn't *actually* hot-plug the graphics card; it's just that it'd be treated as *if* it was hotplugged, because that's what the system sees.
16:59:41 <elliott> Hotplugged CPUs would probably require support at the lower level -- scheduler, etc.
16:59:55 <Vorpal> elliott, there are systems that support hot plugging CPU and PCI
17:00:18 <elliott> i'm not overly concerned with implementing them :)
17:01:01 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. those capabilities are not very common
17:01:12 <Vorpal> elliott, hot plugging SATA is more likely to be supported
17:01:34 <elliott> Vorpal: that would probably work if you did it to things you're not persisting to
17:01:41 <elliott> since the low-level code doesn't need to know about such drives
17:01:45 <Vorpal> (even though iirc all SATA should in theory be hot-pluggable, but manufactures prefer cutting costs than following standards)
17:01:56 <elliott> of course, you'd still have to add code to listen to the "hey, SATA changed!" events.
17:02:00 <elliott> or just rescan manually or something :)
17:02:17 <elliott> <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i don't you'd want anyone below 130 touching this ;D
17:02:33 <elliott> oerjan: I either thank you for your compliment or shake my fists at you for not wanting me to try and implement it :)
17:02:49 <Vorpal> elliott, your IQ being?
17:03:01 <oerjan> elliott: why can't it be both? :D
17:03:21 <elliott> oerjan: *or shake my fists at you for not wanting me to try and implement it on account of my below-130 IQ :)
17:03:33 <Vorpal> elliott, relative what year?
17:03:51 <elliott> Vorpal: how the heck should I know, tests are ridiculously unreliable and moreso for people with more than slightly above-average which I am *fairly* sure I do not come off as sounding egotistical by saying I am.
17:04:07 <elliott> *above-average intelligence
17:04:54 <elliott> hmph this code needs prettifying the shit out of it
17:04:57 <Vorpal> elliott, btw ultimate answer to a question along the lines of "so you think you are better than me?": "My modesty prevent me from confirming it, but my honesty prevent me from denying it"
17:05:42 <oklofok> i did the iq test on mensa's page, every question was trivial and apparently the test only measures up to like 16X
17:08:49 <elliott> case catMaybes . map (\(Rule lhs rhs) -> (rhs,) `fmap` sab lhs t) $ rs of
17:08:50 <elliott> rws -> second snd . maximumBy (compare `on` fst `on` snd) $ rws
17:08:55 <elliott> Couldn't match expected type `Maybe (CTerm, [Rule])'
17:08:55 <elliott> against inferred type `(CTerm, [Rule])'
17:08:55 <elliott> second snd . maximumBy (compare `on` fst `on` snd) $ rws
17:09:01 <elliott> oerjan is my ghc-explain(1)
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17:10:12 <oerjan> in any case i picked 130 sort of out of thin air, it's just i doubt any regulars here are anywhere near as low as 100
17:11:29 <elliott> oerjan: of course IQ doesn't exactly denote intelligence...
17:11:50 <oerjan> elliott: second whatever always returns a tuple, not a Maybe?
17:12:02 <oerjan> well unless you use a different Arrow
17:12:09 <elliott> oerjan: OH DUH YES I need Just $
17:12:24 <elliott> oerjan: wanna rewrite that function to not be hideous? :P
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17:13:38 <oerjan> nooga is secretly santa
17:13:47 <oklofok> that's not very secret of him
17:13:54 <elliott> and that's two swaps away from satan!
17:13:58 <oerjan> well he certainly blew it there
17:14:05 <elliott> flip nooga around twice and he becomes satan
17:14:29 <nooga> nooga in the land of puns
17:14:46 <elliott> well i guess we could call oerjan raPUNzel...
17:14:49 * elliott runs madly away from the swatter
17:15:11 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well indeed, and my _real_ point was that an average person (100) wouldn't be able to understand a thing of this
17:15:23 <elliott> oerjan: i don't think that's *necessarily* true
17:15:33 <elliott> oerjan: it depends how much you correlate IQ with this kind of abstract reasoning
17:15:35 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, yes, but they'd be able to do the menial work!
17:15:41 * oerjan throws his swatter after elliott, mjolner style -----###
17:15:56 <elliott> oerjan: would you correlate being able to fill in the box in http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/RavenMatrix.gif with any kind of abstract reasoning capability?
17:16:18 <elliott> oerjan: ignoring the fact that that one is REALLY trivial :)
17:16:30 <oerjan> i'm not even bothering to click that link
17:16:50 <nooga> what a hard puzzle
17:17:14 <nooga> finally i've got something to do in the evening
17:17:41 <oklofok> oerjan: i can give you a hint
17:18:07 <oerjan> well rotating 90 degrees isn't exactly hard, no
17:18:23 <Vorpal> <oerjan> well he certainly blew it there <-- except that was a red herring
17:18:27 <elliott> funny, i saw it as the dot making it way clockwise around the shape
17:18:47 <oerjan> Vorpal: i thought santa had a red-nosed reindeer, not a herring
17:19:19 <elliott> SANTA THE RED NOSED REINDEER HAD A VERY SHINY BLAH
17:19:21 <oerjan> elliott: of course there are alternative ways of seeing it.
17:19:32 <elliott> ugh my rewrite function is gonna be pain
17:19:46 <oerjan> and if you're really lucky you see an alternative that the test maker didn't think of
17:19:59 <elliott> I HATE THIS PROGRAM oerjan can you write a term rewriter for me
17:20:07 * nooga just obtained 12 SPARC IIe blade workstations
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17:24:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: so do you want to help write the SPECIALISER
17:24:27 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, that's currying + optimisation in this context, yes?
17:24:51 <oklofok> term rewriters are trivial to write
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17:25:09 <elliott> oklofok: they are but i'm doing it in haskell
17:25:13 <elliott> oklofok: and it has become amazingly ugly :D
17:25:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: uhh. sort of.
17:25:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's a LOT more involved than that :)
17:25:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: but yes, essentially.
17:25:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: except don't call it currying
17:25:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, yes. First-class code, for one thing. And not really currying.
17:26:18 <elliott> curry : ((a, b) -> c) -> (a -> b -> c)
17:26:34 <elliott> turning an N (say N=2) parameter function into a 1 parameter function returning a 1 parameter function, etc.
17:26:46 <elliott> partially applying f (an N-argument function) to x is (curry f) x
17:26:55 <elliott> assuming you don't usually curry all functions, which you do in haskell :)
17:28:14 <nooga> elliott: no, they're ALL MINE!
17:29:14 <Vorpal> <oerjan> Vorpal: i thought santa had a red-nosed reindeer, not a herring <-- that is an urban myth
17:29:19 <oklofok> you're saying term rewriting is "just currying"?
17:29:28 <oklofok> term rewriting is much simpler than currying
17:29:38 <Vorpal> * nooga just obtained 12 SPARC IIe blade workstations <-- why?
17:29:40 <elliott> oklofok: we're takling about specialisers
17:30:02 <Vorpal> elliott, use an existing one as a base?
17:30:02 <oklofok> yeah i haven't looked that word up yet, but you've been talking about that stuff for quite a while now
17:30:04 <nooga> Vorpal: for fun, never did anything on SPARC
17:30:19 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc there is one that works on yhc core
17:30:22 <elliott> Vorpal: there's something like *one* actually-existing specialiser that does something useful when applied to itself that i know of
17:30:28 <nooga> who wouldn't like a cluster at home
17:30:32 <Vorpal> elliott, oh? which one?
17:30:34 <elliott> Vorpal: well, yhc is rather experimental. that may be good. ideally you do it at a higher-level
17:30:39 <elliott> Vorpal: also, one in some thesis or book or something, I forget
17:30:40 <elliott> a whole group worked on it
17:30:53 <elliott> anyway, if it isn't written in MyMagicLanguage I can't use it for obvious reasosn
17:30:54 <Vorpal> elliott, not the yhc one then?
17:30:59 <elliott> even if I implemented that language
17:31:04 <elliott> since it has to apply to MyMagicLanguage programs
17:31:06 <elliott> Vorpal: not that i know of
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17:31:25 <elliott> hmm, the environment variable PKGROOT points to, say, /var/pkg, where all package information is stored
17:31:29 <elliott> what environment variable should point to /?
17:31:31 * nooga notes: terminus font is too small to read at 9pt
17:31:33 <elliott> i.e. the path to install packages to#
17:31:56 <elliott> Vorpal: not specific enough, it's only for the package manager
17:32:01 <elliott> so it should probably start with PKG
17:32:16 <elliott> nooga: it will have a name, it just doesn't yet.
17:32:21 <Vorpal> elliott, ah well. SYSTEM_INSTALL_ROOT_FOR_PACKAGE_MANAGER_PURPOSES_WHY_ALL_CAPS?
17:32:26 <elliott> Vorpal: this will be used to install the core system too, so WHATEVERITSCALLED=/mnt/sys
17:32:47 <Vorpal> elliott, see my suggestion
17:33:06 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsCWiBMcJlk this will help codu.js or whatever :P
17:34:27 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe I should rename PKGROOT and make PKGROOT=/
17:34:37 <elliott> PKGDIR? no, that should be the directory of a single package
17:34:48 <elliott> PKGINSTALL? seems more like an action than a variable
17:36:55 <Vorpal> elliott, hm what are the valid char set of an env var name?
17:37:04 <Vorpal> elliott, is it anything except \0 and = ?
17:37:26 <elliott> Vorpal: whatever your suggestion would be, I reject it :P
17:38:27 <elliott> Vorpal: = appears to be valid
17:39:21 <elliott> it's empty string equals x there
17:39:35 <Gregor> elliott: That video is spectacularly unclear about what StackedVM actually /is/
17:40:23 <elliott> Gregor: That's because it's in another blog post :P
17:40:34 <elliott> Gregor: tl;dr it runs VMs on server-side and presents them to the web-browser client via unicorns.
17:42:14 <elliott> Gregor: I said "perhaps maybe sort of useful", not "interesting".
17:42:59 <Gregor> elliott: If it doesn't revolutionize computing as we know it even as it reinvents it, I just don't care *shrugs*
17:43:28 <elliott> Gregor: I did say in the context of js.codu.org
17:43:32 <elliott> Gregor: Since you talked about using browsershots
17:43:41 <elliott> Gregor: Also, SOUNDS LIKE YOU'D LIKE @
17:45:21 <oerjan> @ is perfect in every way, the only downside is this universe does not have room for enough intelligence to actually develop it.
17:45:40 <oerjan> to sum up the gist of our recent discussion.
17:46:34 <elliott> Gregor: Do you like purely functional programming languages?! No, I mean, do you REALLY like purely functional programming languages?! Do you like orthogonal persistence?! In a very SPECIAL way?!?! DO YOU LIKE DISTRIBUTED OBJECT SPACES?????
17:48:35 <elliott> Gregor: Do...do you like warm, fluffy blankets?
17:50:06 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: anyway what
17:51:35 <Vorpal> whatever. Have to leave now.
17:52:58 <oerjan> once again Vorpal leaves, thinking "why do i hang around with these maniacs?"
17:54:13 <elliott> oerjan: so so name my environment variable!
17:55:03 <elliott> oerjan: you're such a schemer.
17:57:18 <oerjan> i didn't know Edwin was a scheme name
17:59:07 <elliott> oerjan: it's MIT Scheme's Emacs clone
17:59:53 <oerjan> WELL BY A REMARKABLE COINCIDENCE...
18:01:25 <ais523> happy Australian mailman reminders day!
18:01:48 * oerjan wonders if he'll get a reminder this time
18:01:58 <elliott> ais523: you too! happy tell me what to name my environment variable day!
18:02:26 <ais523> my sense of aesthetics is different from yours
18:02:33 <elliott> ais523: ok then, rename the variable that points to /var/pkg, assuming PKGROOT is the one that usually points to /
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18:05:25 <elliott> ais523 refuses to take my delectable bait
18:08:03 -!- oklofok has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
18:10:45 <elliott> ais523: so what would YOU call an environment variable pointing to the package "database"
18:12:15 <elliott> ais523 is either away or refuses to succumb to my INTERESTING QUESTIONS
18:19:16 <elliott> ais523: PKGDIR? PKGDB? PKG...what?
18:20:10 <elliott> I'm not actually sure what constitutes a furball yet, since my system is so strange. :p
18:21:36 <oerjan> as long as you're on the ball
18:23:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, YOU name my variable.
18:23:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Either: Given PKGROOT=/var/pkg being typical, i.e. the package files and the like, name a variable usually set to / -- where packages get installed.
18:24:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Given PKGROOT=/ being typical, i.e. where packages get installed, name a variable usually set to /var/pkg -- where the package information files are.
18:24:33 <elliott> Possibly, but that seems more like an action than something you'd set.
18:28:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also, it's not just info; the actual .tars and stuff are there too.
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18:30:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I still think "PKGINSTALL" is best; it makes clear that this is where stuff is installed.
18:31:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: true, but on the other hand, PKGROOT sounds like it points to the *root* directory
18:31:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I am willing to consider PKGROOT=/ and PKGDIR=/var/pkg
18:32:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WELL DON'T LEAVE ME HANGIN' HEAR WHICH
18:32:35 <elliott> PKGINSTALL=/ and PKGROOT=/var/pkg
18:32:39 <elliott> PKGROOT=/ and PKGDIR=/var/pkg
18:33:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Now tell me what to call my local pkgdir variable, which denotes a path like /var/pkg/emacs.
18:34:49 <Phantom_Hoover> OK then, the former suggestion with PKGDIR=/var/pkg/foo
18:35:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It is *only* used in my script.
18:35:21 <elliott> A user would never set it; it is a local variable.
18:35:25 <elliott> It's just that having pkgdir=$PKGDIR/emacs is STUPID.
18:36:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But $pkg is the name of the package!
18:36:17 <elliott> I could say pkgname, sure... but ew.
18:36:28 <elliott> I guess pkgname=$PKGROOT/$pkg makes sense.
18:36:36 <elliott> pkg=$PKGROOT/$pkgname makes sense.
18:36:41 <nooga> http://theendisnear.no-ip.info/
18:36:45 <elliott> pkg=$PKGDIR/$pkgname makes even more sense :P
18:37:13 <elliott> nooga: does it explode? is it quantum?
18:37:53 <elliott> `addquote Thanks to nooga for constructive criticism, his ideas and being a constant annoyance. --http://theendisnear.no-ip.info/
18:38:29 <HackEgo> 265|Thanks to nooga for constructive criticism, his ideas and being a constant annoyance. --http://theendisnear.no-ip.info/
18:39:33 <nooga> i'm trying to make minicom to work in some kind of non-interactive mode
18:39:53 <nooga> because minicom is soooo not KISS compliant
18:41:42 <elliott> nooga: yeah i can't get it to send a file with this silly interface
18:41:59 <fizzie> It has that run-a-script option, I think that's as far as it goes re non-interactive.
18:45:27 <fizzie> If you only want to send a file, maybe the sz program (or rather, sx, but I think sz is how you find it) would be more appropriate; possibly with some small wrapper for the "l" command or whatevur.
18:47:07 <elliott> fizzie: PKGINSTALL=/ and PKGROOT=/var/pkg and pkgdir=$PKGROOT/$pkg
18:47:08 <elliott> fizzie: PKGROOT=/ and PKGDIR=/var/pkg and pkg=$PKGROOT/$pkgname
18:48:58 <fizzie> I am unsure. Maybe I'd vote for the first opinion, but can't be sure.
18:49:14 <elliott> fizzie: Your indecision is palatable.
18:50:47 <elliott> fizzie: You know, democracy is not voluntary in my world!
18:50:57 <elliott> (Okay, it is. But only if you really, really want it to be.
18:51:00 <elliott> And that would make me sad.)
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18:51:25 <oerjan> any attempt to force us to make decisions will just lead to a revolution
18:51:54 <Vorpal> <oerjan> once again Vorpal leaves, thinking "why do i hang around with these maniacs?" <-- that too. but in this case it wasn't that. It was just I had a piano lesson
18:52:08 <elliott> read as pano lesson, decided Vorpal's panorama crap had gone TOO FAR
18:52:54 <Vorpal> elliott, actually panoramas are not crap. They are fun to make. And that is the important thing for a hobby
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18:53:16 <Vorpal> elliott, so any info on the minecraft update of today?
18:54:11 <elliott> it's made of puppies and they kill you if you don't exist*
18:54:41 <Vorpal> "[edit] Server 0.2.6_01 no longer gives everyone 64 snowballs on connecting"
18:54:46 <Vorpal> how the fuck did that happen
18:55:10 <Vorpal> I mean, doesn't java have some way to do #ifdef DEBUG
18:55:15 <Vorpal> if he isn't testing release builds
18:55:18 <fizzie> fi:pano is approximately en:fuck, in the "sex act" sense. (Simplified a bit here; and it also means the act that's the opposite of withdrawal to a bank account, can't quite catch the word for that.)
18:55:26 <elliott> <Vorpal> I mean, doesn't java have some way to do #ifdef DEBUG
18:55:30 <elliott> yes, it's called if (app.debug)
18:55:34 <elliott> where debug is static final constant, IIRC
18:55:38 <elliott> that's guaranteed to be optimised out
18:55:57 <elliott> fizzie: Please tell me the deposit usage is common.
18:56:06 <nooga> fizzie: sz you say?
18:56:07 <elliott> "And then I made a [fi:pano] in her account, if you know what I mean."
18:56:08 <Deewiant> It's also "to put" in general.
18:56:25 <elliott> Vorpal: [[Server 0.2.6_02 and client 1.2.4_01 now spawn other monsters than ONLY CREEPERS EVERYWHERE]]
18:56:32 <elliott> notch is the worst programmer ever.
18:56:41 <Vorpal> elliott, sadly there are way worse
18:56:46 <fizzie> nooga: Part of lrzsz. It just speaks zmodem/xmodem/ymodem to stdout, so it'd need some wrapping-around.
18:56:54 <Vorpal> elliott, he is sure better than quite a few on dailywtf
18:57:05 <elliott> Vorpal: [[* Fixed minecarts (and pigs!) moving twice as fast as they should when ridden.]]
18:57:25 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. Might need to add boosters then. You provide track. for that if needed
18:57:32 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway have ineiros updated or not?
18:57:37 <elliott> Vorpal: why do i have to provide track
18:57:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm low on iron :P
18:58:25 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway: server must be upgraded too. Protocol changes.
18:58:34 <elliott> 2010-11-30 13:52:29 [SEVERE] Unexpected exception
18:58:34 <elliott> java.lang.NullPointerException
18:58:38 <oerjan> iron deficiency is no laughing matter
18:58:43 <fizzie> From what I heard, the good old "duplicate items end up in the last inventory slot" was a buffer overflow type of bug, which is not too shabby in Java.
18:59:25 <fizzie> Also, I can donate another dozen iron blocks later, I guess. Can't quite recall how much I have left.
18:59:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh gawd, he re-obfuscated the code.
18:59:35 <elliott> STOP BEING SUCH A DICKWAD NOTCH
18:59:49 <elliott> Either (1) start coding properly or (2) stop forcing updates and constantly obfuscating the code.
19:00:24 <fizzie> elliott: Y'see, he FROWNS on unauthorized modcraftery.
19:00:46 <elliott> fizzie: I frown on getting a buffer overflow in fucking Java.
19:00:52 <elliott> And somehow spawning only creepers.
19:00:58 <elliott> And... and every damn bug, they're all so trivial and stupid.
19:02:11 <fizzie> I guess it might've been something like the hand-inventory and inventory being different parts of the same array and then getting confused about indices.
19:02:37 <elliott> Ugh, why can't I decide on these names.
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19:06:59 <nooga> I TOLD YOU HE'S A MORON
19:07:24 <Phantom_Hoover> 'twould appear that computer hacker from Glasgow being extradited was a complete nutcase.
19:08:24 <nooga> i love free energy enthusiasts
19:08:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: why extradited?
19:08:38 <elliott> nooga: he's not a moron, he's just a bad coder.
19:08:53 <Phantom_Hoover> And he seems to have thought the most logical course of action under these circumstances was to hack into NASA and military computers looking for evidence of UFOs.
19:08:55 <nooga> let me grep the logs
19:08:58 <elliott> nooga: oh, fuck off with your stupid crap about minecraft.
19:09:01 <elliott> i fully recall what you said.
19:09:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: :D awesome
19:09:22 <Phantom_Hoover> The US claim he destroyed several systems; he denies this thoroughly.
19:10:27 <nooga> elliott: it's not stupid crap, it's just that the author can't design and code properly and he dares to sell it
19:10:47 <elliott> nooga: people can sell WHATEVER THE FUCK THEY WANT.
19:10:58 <nooga> but why ppl buy that?!
19:10:59 <elliott> as far as "design" goes, his game is certainly well-designed and the graphics are lovely.
19:11:10 <elliott> as far as code goes, yes he does a lot of stupid things, but it's still a fucking good game.
19:11:13 <nooga> it's so called coder
19:11:30 <elliott> nooga: you *really* have not grasped the difference between retro and bad
19:11:43 <elliott> nooga: do you hear a chiptune and think "oh, not skilled enough to make proper electronic music"?
19:11:59 <nooga> "i can't draw and model basic shapes in 3d so i will build my game out of f*## bricks and noise"
19:12:11 <elliott> nooga: IT WAS A CONSCIOUS DESIGN DECISION YOU MORON
19:12:24 <nooga> check out few retro games
19:12:45 <elliott> seriously, just shut the hell up.
19:12:53 <elliott> the game would *not* be better with a different art style.
19:12:57 <nooga> <- constant annoyance
19:12:59 <elliott> so would everyone else who plays it.
19:13:46 <elliott> nooga: coder art would be solid colours in place of blocks.
19:13:49 <elliott> the blocks have actual design.
19:14:39 <elliott> have you ever actually seen or played minecraft
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19:19:12 <Vorpal> ineiros, when will you update the server?
19:20:07 <Vorpal> elliott, did it ask you for upgrade on login or?
19:20:29 <elliott> Vorpal: server is now inaccessible, deal with it
19:20:41 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah I don't have time for it today anyway
19:20:44 <elliott> Vorpal: also how on earth do I fill in "Authors:" for the original vi
19:21:03 <elliott> Bill Joy, ................................decades of history................................, Gunnar Ritter (modernised it)
19:21:16 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm packaging the original vi
19:21:21 <elliott> i need to have an authors file
19:21:37 <elliott> I might omit the authors file ... but who knows how that is, license-wise
19:21:38 <Vorpal> elliott, what does debian do?
19:21:54 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't think it packages it, but I also don't think it has authors
19:22:25 <Vorpal> elliott, if debian doesn't have it then it probably is legally okay for at least some of those packages
19:22:33 <elliott> Vorpal: I think I'm already violating licenses; I'm pretty sure that even with BSD, I have to include the license with the author names on any system that installs the program :/
19:22:53 <elliott> Oh, I don't care about legal, for crediting the authors.
19:23:14 <elliott> In this case I just want the most "respectful" way, which I think is to omit the authors altogether.
19:23:22 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah AUTHORS probably needs to go in doc
19:23:59 <elliott> In the description I can say "Bill Joy's editor of infamy. Updated for modern Unix systems by Gunnar Ritter, based on Caldera's release of the code."
19:27:34 <elliott> # Ex is very large - this version will not fit on PDP-11's without overlay
19:27:34 <elliott> # software. Things that can be turned off to save
19:27:34 <elliott> # space include LISPCODE (-l flag, showmatch and lisp options), CHDIR (the
19:27:35 <elliott> # previously undocumented chdir command.)
19:28:38 <elliott> make install PREFIX=/ DESTDIR="$1"
19:28:46 <elliott> I hate how set -e isn't default for non-interactive shells...
19:35:56 <elliott> Vorpal: you're a shell guy - after {cd foo; ...}, with {}s, is the dir back to normal?
19:36:01 <elliott> i.e. does a block scope directory changes too?
19:36:05 <elliott> if not, () will work, right?
19:37:00 <Vorpal> elliott, () will work, {} will not
19:37:10 <elliott> can't use pushd/popd, I'm being all portable :)
19:37:23 <Vorpal> elliott, it would have taken 1/3 of the time to test this :P
19:37:32 <elliott> yes, but 1000% of the effort
19:37:43 <elliott> i am extremely lazy, and typing is very easy.
19:37:47 <Vorpal> elliott, you had to write the same thing here on IRC
19:37:57 <elliott> yes, but i'd have had to start sh
19:38:12 <elliott> make: /usr/ucb/install: Command not found
19:38:12 <elliott> make: *** [install-man] Error 127
19:38:12 <elliott> tar: Removing leading `/' from member names
19:38:16 <elliott> you're meant to stop after that, stupid
19:38:20 <elliott> subshell exit != shell exit :D
19:38:24 * elliott adds || exit $? after the )
19:39:48 <elliott> Vorpal: in a shell, to do atexit I should use trap, right?
19:41:02 <elliott> tar actually created a "." directory in my resulting archive
19:41:41 <Vorpal> elliott, trap yes but don't depend on it being very reliable. ctrl-c twice fast can mess it up iirc
19:41:50 <elliott> Vorpal: well it's just to clean up a temporary dir
19:41:54 <Vorpal> elliott, also it is on signal
19:41:58 <Vorpal> elliott, not on normal exit iirc
19:42:11 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you writing in shell script?
19:42:14 <elliott> Vorpal: hmm right I do "exit 1" a lot
19:42:22 <elliott> Vorpal: my package manager, out of sheer laziness :) it doesn't do much, so that's okay
19:42:30 <elliott> in this case, it's pkgbuild(1), which takes the name of a package and builds the source
19:42:43 <elliott> Vorpal: I'd prefer to be using rc, but shipping rc with every system sounds a bit silly.
19:43:00 <elliott> These are things you could do by yourself really anyway. My package management system is stupidly simple.
19:43:12 <Vorpal> elliott, what about a high level language that gives small binaries?
19:43:42 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm waiiiitiiiiing
19:43:47 <Vorpal> elliott, surely that exists?
19:43:53 <elliott> Vorpal: I started writing these tools in C, but they were REALLY HUGE AND TEDIOUS.
19:44:06 <Vorpal> elliott, C isn't very high level
19:44:15 <elliott> My C pkginfo was like 100 lines and it barely did anything; my nice, featured pkginfo in shell is 75 lines.
19:44:29 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't you refuse interpreted languages?
19:44:34 <Vorpal> elliott, and shell script is interpreted
19:44:42 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, but no system is without /bin/sh.
19:44:46 <elliott> plenty of systems are without python :P
19:44:50 <Vorpal> elliott, what if sh breaks?
19:45:01 <elliott> Vorpal: then you're fucked. grab a livecd and fix it.
19:45:07 <elliott> note: if sh breaks you are always fucked.
19:45:24 <elliott> Vorpal: (if sh is broken, what are you typing into?)
19:45:26 <Vorpal> elliott, same for <your language of choice>. Probably not perl or such. awk sounds like a better choice
19:45:29 <elliott> Vorpal: (if it's anything like a shell, use it to fix sh.)
19:45:45 <elliott> awk? awk is horrible for actual programming tasks
19:45:51 <elliott> i have never read a file with it and i doubt i ever will
19:45:57 <elliott> i don't know if it's even possible portably :P
19:46:53 <Vorpal> elliott, writing a nice scripting language, presumably a DSL. Then use that
19:47:14 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't *know* of any nice languages for unix apart from c, rc and haskell
19:47:19 <elliott> i've rejected C for good reasons
19:47:34 <elliott> rc is lovely but a bit awkward outside of plan 9 and its toolset, and I don't want to ship it on every system
19:47:42 <elliott> ghc's executables are large when linked statically
19:47:56 <elliott> Vorpal: we've had this conversation before. go doesn't really make simple file options and the like convenient, which is what I'm doing
19:48:02 <elliott> also, I need to shell out to use tar and everything *already*
19:48:31 <elliott> - install every runtime dependency
19:49:08 <Vorpal> elliott, so not ghc yeah
19:49:25 <elliott> Vorpal: non-ghc haskell implementations are always behind ghc :P
19:51:15 <elliott> is "set -e" equivalent to passing -e to sh?
19:51:33 <pikhq> elliott: It's Bourne.
19:51:59 <elliott> make install INSTALL=install PREFIX=/ DESTDIR="$1"
19:52:02 <elliott> how's that for a build script
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19:53:56 <elliott> pikhq: So how does one do "tar cf foo.tar ." without getting a directory called . in the tar?
19:55:49 <pikhq> elliott: DON'T DO TARBOMBS
19:56:50 <fizzie> "tar cf foo.tar *" assuming sensible names in the directory?
19:56:57 <elliott> pikhq: THEY'RE PACKAGES, THEY EXTRACT TO THE ROOT DIRECTORY, STOOPID
19:57:03 <Vorpal> elliott, do you need every single feature ghc provides?
19:57:09 <Vorpal> elliott, in your package manager
19:57:35 <pikhq> "tar cf foo.tar -- *" if you dislike that assumption.
19:57:42 <elliott> Vorpal: I only know ghc, I don't feel like working out the differences between ghc and $other in my programs, and nobody really uses non-ghc so they're stagnating.
19:57:47 <fizzie> pikhq: Still, dotfiles.
19:57:53 <fizzie> (Dotfiles at / are a bit... though.)
19:57:56 <Vorpal> elliott, presumably it is mostly missing features?
19:58:12 <elliott> fizzie: pikhq: How about "tar cf foo.tar -- $(ls -A)", you sillys :P
19:58:31 <elliott> (Although that fails with FILENAMES WITH SPACES IN /)
19:59:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Sure, but surely bugs too.
19:59:18 <elliott> Anyway I don't want to write them in Haskell because they're the closest thing to obvious shell scripts you can get.
19:59:19 <Vorpal> elliott, if they are packages that extract to / where do you put post-install scripts or metadata?
19:59:27 <elliott> Vorpal: In the package directory.
19:59:37 <elliott> build description source.tar version website
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19:59:40 <elliott> build is the build script.
19:59:44 <elliott> Other such scripts would go in there too.
19:59:45 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but what about binary packages?
19:59:49 <elliott> If you have a binary package, it's root.tar.
19:59:51 <elliott> Vorpal: Every system has this.
19:59:54 <elliott> It's like apt's information database.
20:00:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Just not every system will have source.tar.
20:00:18 <Vorpal> elliott, sure but how can you be sure that is in sync with the binary package?
20:00:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Because the installation program gets the binary package by (1) noting in a package manager file that the file pkgname/root.tar is to be downloaded and (2) synchronising the database.
20:01:05 <elliott> This will pull down the new binary package from the server and also update the information and binary packages of the other software.
20:01:12 <elliott> It will then install the new updates.
20:01:30 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:01:34 <elliott> (I can't be arsed to do advanced versioned dependencies, so I just don't bother; there's no real reason to hold back a package. You can't even really do this on Debian because everything fucks up when you try and hold an upgrade back.)
20:01:36 <Vorpal> elliott, what about offline package sources?
20:01:42 <Vorpal> elliott, such as offline install cd
20:01:49 <Vorpal> (if you have issues getting network to work or such)
20:01:52 <elliott> Vorpal: It's probably just going to be rsync.
20:01:52 <pikhq> elliott: tar --null -T <(find . -maxdepth 0 -name '*' -print0) -cf foo.tar
20:01:55 <elliott> Vorpal: So, uh, you know what to do.
20:02:11 <pikhq> (so very GNU, but uses one of the less objectionable features)
20:02:13 <elliott> pikhq: I don't believe in filenames with newlines in them, so I find -print0 pointless.
20:02:24 <fizzie> Does "-name '*'" actually do anything?
20:02:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Just tell it to use /mnt/cd as a source. It does, after all, just use rsync.
20:02:40 <pikhq> fizzie: Matches any file.
20:02:47 <elliott> Vorpal: If you write your own package, you just include source.tar in the package directory and it all works.
20:02:56 <fizzie> pikhq: Yes, but does it *do* anything.
20:03:01 <Vorpal> elliott, personally I find binary packages should be self-contained. More robust against mismatches.
20:03:02 <pikhq> ... Wait, yeah, you don't need that test.
20:03:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Define self-contained.
20:03:11 <pikhq> find . -maxdepth 0 -print0
20:03:20 <elliott> pikhq: *-print; I don't believe in filenames with newlines in them.
20:03:42 <elliott> pikhq: And . is redundant.
20:03:42 <pikhq> elliott: I believe in filenames containing any valid Unicode string.
20:03:46 <elliott> pikhq: Thus "find -maxdepth 0".
20:03:50 <Vorpal> elliott, "given this one file it contains everything needed to install the package in a safe way, such as dependency information and so on.
20:04:03 <elliott> pikhq: I don't; Unix sucks, let's not ruin it by ending the line-based tradition.
20:04:12 <elliott> That is one of the few useful things about Unix, and it's what lets grep(1) work.
20:04:16 <pikhq> elliott: NULL TERMINATE EVERYTHING
20:04:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Ah... so you like static linking.
20:04:19 <Vorpal> elliott, .deb, are self-contained like that. So are .rpm. And all the other formats I know of
20:04:30 <elliott> pikhq: What about filenames with zeroes in them?
20:04:32 <Vorpal> elliott, yes sure. But there are other deps than .so
20:04:35 <elliott> Vorpal: And you want every dependency included too.
20:04:36 <fizzie> Uh, "find -maxdepth 0" just prints out ".".
20:04:40 <pikhq> elliott: Actually not valid.
20:04:40 <elliott> Vorpal: So a .deb should include all its dependencies.
20:04:41 <Vorpal> elliott, data, running app
20:04:45 <fizzie> And anyway, it sounds to me like you'd get the ./ with find there.
20:04:54 <pikhq> elliott: U+0 and / are reserved.
20:05:01 <Vorpal> elliott, it is enough to include information on *what it needs* so you can't mess up by installing conflicting versions.
20:05:13 <Vorpal> elliott, if you read my line I said "dependency information"
20:05:22 <fizzie> (Also "find -maxdepth 1" will print out both the "." and it's files as "./foo".)
20:05:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, it is completely impossible to install a binary package without the package information.
20:05:37 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye).
20:05:44 <elliott> Vorpal: A "binary package" consists, then, of the directory in /var/pkg.
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20:05:48 <elliott> Vorpal: You just include root.tar in there.
20:05:50 <elliott> Which is the contents of /.
20:05:56 <elliott> That includes dependency information and all.
20:05:59 <Vorpal> elliott, if foo is installed and depends on bar-1.0 and you downloaded bar-2.0 by hand to install it *something should complain*
20:06:02 <Vorpal> elliott, that is my point
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20:06:18 <elliott> Vorpal: That's your own stupid fault.
20:06:45 <elliott> I do more for you than Slackware; I don't treat you like an idiot.
20:06:55 <elliott> If you do stupid things your system will break. That applies to Debian too.
20:07:09 <elliott> Note that I said stupid, as in wilfully stupid.
20:07:16 <Vorpal> elliott, how so? it is a perfectly valid action. I had to download a .deb a few days ago on a windows computer then copy it to my laptop when the wlan at university was down.
20:07:48 <elliott> Besides, that is not a problem... almost every dependency of that type is a library.
20:07:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I got the url on my laptop, put it in a file on a usb stick, downloaded it on a public computer there to the usb stick, then copied it back.
20:08:01 <elliott> 99% of packages will have absolutely zero runtime dependencies.
20:08:02 <pikhq> Vorpal: The same issue can easily happen on Debian.
20:08:07 <elliott> Vorpal: You are very confused about how my system works.
20:08:08 <Vorpal> elliott, not all. "I'm a script and I need python"
20:08:15 <pikhq> Remember, dpkg is completely dumb.
20:08:25 <elliott> Vorpal: so you installed Python 3 over Python 2?
20:08:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, that is why I copied to /var/cache/apt/archive :P
20:08:50 <Vorpal> elliott, no :P But just saying that there are *lots of deps that aren't library ones*
20:09:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Not "*lots*"; some.
20:09:21 <elliott> Beyond the basic script interpreters, there's not many at all.
20:09:24 <Vorpal> true, there are more library ones
20:09:48 <Vorpal> elliott, oh? "I'm this fancy daemon and I need dbus"?
20:10:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Let me put it another way: there may be many packages that depend on a non-library. But there are not many non-library packages that are depended on at all.
20:10:28 <elliott> Interpreters, dbus, a few others.
20:10:49 <fizzie> "I'm this plugin for foo, I need foo." (Admittedly only for rather large foos.)
20:11:12 <elliott> fizzie: There's not really very many of those.
20:11:15 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: I don't follow the discussion.)
20:11:16 <Vorpal> elliott, stuff will depend on X too.
20:11:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, it will depend on libX11.
20:11:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Protip: Try and install an X package sometime. Note how it does not try and install an X server.
20:11:43 <elliott> There are some files in /etc and /share and stuff, but that can all go in one package.
20:11:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I admit that the non-library deps will be reduced if you don't do crazy package-splitting like debian and ubuntu
20:12:02 <fizzie> Well, I'm this firefox, I depend on lsb-release, psmisc, debianutils, fontconfig; which aren't strictly speaking libraries. (Disclaimer: I still haven't bothered to find out the context, and won't.)
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20:12:41 <fizzie> I have no clue at all.
20:12:42 <Vorpal> psmisc I don't remember what that is
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20:12:52 <fizzie> That's fuser, killall, peekfd, pstree, prtstat.
20:12:59 <elliott> fizzie: lsb-release is... not going to be included because I very much doubt I comply with LSB anyway.
20:13:08 <elliott> fizzie: psmisc, sure. debianutils, I'm not Debian.
20:13:15 <elliott> So basically, {psmisc, fontconfig}.
20:13:17 <fizzie> Probably related to some of the startup scripts there.
20:13:26 <elliott> also isn't fontconfig a library? I forget
20:13:27 <Vorpal> I wonder why it wants debianutils?
20:13:36 <elliott> Vorpal: because debian patch everything :P
20:13:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I seem to remember having debianutils on gentoo, got installed shortly before I switched away
20:14:08 <fizzie> I'm rxvt-unicode and I need base-passwd, I'd like ttf-dejavu. (I guess "font" might be considered a "library".)
20:14:09 <Vorpal> iirc just one or two things from it
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20:14:28 <elliott> fizzie: Library in this case is an .a, that is not a dependency because it gets statically linked in.
20:14:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, base-passwd? uh. Isn't that just /etc/passwd?
20:14:44 <elliott> No way am I going to have recommended packages, that's just stupid. And rxvt-unicode hardly depends on ttf-dejavu in the slightest.
20:14:57 <elliott> base-passwd, if it really is that, isn't a package; you can just assume that exists because it sure better :P
20:15:12 <fizzie> Yes, it's a bit of a weird package.
20:15:13 <Vorpal> elliott, what about ldap-based login?
20:15:19 <fizzie> "These are the canonical master copies of the user database files (/etc/passwd and /etc/group), containing the Debian-allocated user and group IDs."
20:15:41 <elliott> Vorpal: At that point, I crush your skull and burn the remains.
20:15:51 -!- aliaroush has left (?).
20:16:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I'll surely package it then
20:16:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Have fun with that!
20:16:29 <Vorpal> elliott, note: I'm too lazy to actually it
20:16:31 <elliott> Does anyone know if you can get old channels dropped, like names?
20:16:35 <elliott> Vorpal: You accidentally the verb.
20:16:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I corrected it before you replied
20:17:22 <elliott> Doesn't change the fact that you accidentally it.
20:17:28 <fizzie> I'm cron and I depend on adduser, debianutils (again), lsb-base (well, no LSB) and upstart-job. I'm cryptsetup and I need dmsetup, initramfs-tools, plymouth (what *is* that? some splash thing?) and yet again upstart-job. (Sorry, sorry, I just got sidetracked looking at these.)
20:18:39 <elliott> plymouth is... yes, some splash screen. What.
20:18:54 <elliott> fizzie: I see your insane cron and raise you a http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/cron/
20:19:17 <pikhq> elliott: The libraries ought to be a bit more than just the .a.
20:19:24 <pikhq> elliott: Pkgconfig file too. :P
20:19:29 <Vorpal> elliott, cryptsetup depends on device mapper yes
20:19:40 <elliott> pikhq: I'm going to play a game. It's called "how long can I avoid pkg-config?".
20:19:44 <fizzie> But why does cryptsetup depend on a boot-up splash screen?
20:19:49 <Vorpal> elliott, why do you hate pkg-config?
20:19:50 <elliott> pikhq: (Besides, even then you only need it if you're building something that depends on it.)
20:19:53 <pikhq> elliott: The alternative is libtool.
20:19:56 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't, I can just do without it :P
20:20:12 <Vorpal> elliott, so you prefer /usr/bin/<foo>-config?
20:20:13 <elliott> pikhq: The length of time I can avoid it is probably something like 3 minutes, but I'm sure as hell gonna try anyway.
20:20:24 <Vorpal> elliott, which just clutter tab-completing namespace
20:20:28 <elliott> Vorpal: No, I just actively hate software developers and everything they create for making my life horrible.
20:20:30 <pikhq> With static linking, you *need need need* pkgconfig.
20:20:44 <Vorpal> elliott, also how is pkg-config horrible?
20:20:48 <elliott> GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK ABOUT PKG-CONFIG
20:20:55 <elliott> I NEVER ONCE SAID IT WAS HORRIBLE JUST SHUT UP >_<
20:21:09 <fizzie> "Packages which depend on plymouth: cryptsetup, mountall". That's a bit on the strange side.
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20:21:34 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, I've asked this before, but I'm still hazy on the answer: if I torrent something with (say) transmission, what is the chance of my ISP descending upon me like a tonne of bricks?
20:21:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: -1 if you're torrenting something legal.
20:22:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Make sure to forward yer ports.
20:22:04 -!- nooga has joined.
20:22:13 * nooga moved to other room :F
20:22:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You have a router. Yes?
20:22:32 <elliott> If you say "I don't know" you have to kill yourself. Just a heads up.
20:22:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, he is tricking you. That is a sexual joke
20:23:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't expect Vorpal to actually do something as interesting as attempt to deceive, so I'll believe him.
20:23:36 <elliott> Forward your ports all over the place.
20:23:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Um... it won't work if you don't forward your ports.
20:23:55 <elliott> Or rather, it might, but it'll go at 3 KiB/s.
20:24:01 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: 0 or 1, depending on whether or not your ISP is run by assholes.
20:24:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hah :P I think you got double-tricked or something
20:24:16 <pikhq> If it's run by assholes, you basically can't get onto BitTorrent.
20:24:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: pikhq is wrong.
20:24:25 <elliott> pikhq is talking like he's in 2004.
20:24:29 <elliott> pikhq thinks traffic shaping still works.
20:24:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It will go faster if you forward the ports.
20:24:44 <pikhq> elliott: Comcast somehow does it still.
20:24:51 <elliott> pikhq: Please do not assume the world = US
20:25:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It depends. Go into Transmission preferences, Network, click Test port.
20:25:06 <elliott> If it says it's open, never mind; everything's working.
20:25:08 <pikhq> Though they actually *block it* entirely.
20:25:25 <elliott> pikhq: Good luck doing that with encryption.
20:25:29 <fizzie> >0 is a distinct possibility for "borderline ISPs" like some student-housing places or something. They can go all like "ooh I see you have lots of connections to different places that smells like illegal peer-to-beer".
20:25:31 <pikhq> elliott: Still do it!
20:25:37 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, it's not blocked, since I've successfully torrented several times before.
20:25:54 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Then an entirely 0 chance of your ISP giving a shit.
20:25:57 <elliott> fizzie: Fairly sure Phantom_Hoover isn't in student housing.
20:26:08 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I wonder what a non-geek overhearing fractions from a lecture on genetic algorithms would think
20:26:24 <Vorpal> elliott, "killing off unfit offspring in each generation"
20:26:58 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the port is open, which just piques my curiosity further.
20:27:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Since I do have a router, and I haven't configured it.
20:27:21 <elliott> Vorpal: What if ADOLF HITLER travelled forwards in time and heard that.
20:27:28 <elliott> He would enslave us all to implement COMPUTATIONAL EUGENICS
20:27:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Then it does UPnP properly, be happy.
20:27:41 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Do you have the UPnP or NAT-PMP checkboxes checked in the same page as the test-port thing?
20:28:21 <quintopia> what would hitler do when his algorithm told him to kill himself?
20:28:28 <fizzie> UPnP working for someone just like that; this clearly must be the 2010s.
20:28:34 <elliott> quintopia: fun fact, that's actually what happened
20:28:39 <elliott> he didn't give a shit about losing the war.
20:28:55 <quintopia> elliott: i know. hence the "stupid question" comment.
20:29:03 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Do you have the UPnP or NAT-PMP checkboxes checked in the same page as the test-port thing? <-- on the same page? Wait what?
20:29:13 <elliott> quintopia: that's what hitler said
20:29:21 <elliott> Vorpal: no, transmission preferences.
20:29:34 <Vorpal> elliott, ah. The world isn't breaking down yet then
20:29:42 <quintopia> elliott: it's because i have so much in common with hitler. i'm white. i have a mustache. i have a german name. etc. etc.
20:29:49 <elliott> i should buy a box to be a router sometime, it sounds fun
20:29:52 <elliott> quintopia: also, you are hitler
20:30:08 <Vorpal> <elliott> i should buy a box to be a router sometime, it sounds fun <-- ?
20:30:17 <fizzie> elliott: You can buy a cardboard box and then pretend to be a router like in Warriors of the Net.
20:30:24 <elliott> Vorpal: as opposed to my consumer router i have
20:30:38 <Vorpal> elliott, ah. It would use a shitload more power
20:30:42 <elliott> quintopia: yes, i'm a filthy kike.
20:30:46 * elliott killed by Hitler for being a jew
20:30:48 * elliott killed by jews for saying that
20:30:58 * elliott killed by everyone because it seems popular
20:31:09 <quintopia> i wonder what hitler would do when his algorithm told him that most jews were more fit than him?
20:31:12 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe i'll make it ARM
20:31:12 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't think my Atom mini-ITX box eats very many orders of magnitude more power than someone's embedded-linux router.
20:31:19 <elliott> quintopia: he exercised more
20:32:30 <quintopia> wasn't he working against himself sending jews to labor camps then, forcing them to workout every single day? it's hard to keep up with that sort of exercise regimen.
20:32:50 <elliott> quintopia: he was a strong believer in giving yourself motive and competition to improve
20:33:10 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Language_list&curid=960&diff=20300&oldid=20299 whoops :D
20:33:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Now, to the matter of working out which torrent to use for a given thing.
20:33:21 <quintopia> hitler was secretly a time traveller. that's he avoided all the time travellers trying to kill him.
20:33:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, that couldn't perform very well
20:33:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, I was thinking 10 gbit ethernet router :P
20:33:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, what is it?
20:33:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: It performs perfectly well to saturate the sort of ADSL you can get here.
20:34:40 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I meant "in general, which format is the best for me to choose?"
20:34:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ...is it music? video? what?
20:34:54 <fizzie> I should sometimes benchmark how well it does on passing data between the network HD and the LAN, though; those are connected to different gige-ports on it.
20:34:56 <elliott> How the hell do you answer that question?
20:35:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: btw, use http://torrentz.com/ to search and use the tracker list files it has.
20:35:30 <fizzie> LinITX ("UK's biggest small form factor specialist" to quote themselves) sells all kinds of funky router-optimized boxes.
20:35:33 <elliott> click the uTorrent compatible link, copy, go into torrent properties, trackers, Edit, paste it in.
20:35:41 <elliott> fizzie: It's not fun unless I do it myself without help!
20:35:50 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: DVD or Bluray ISO.
20:35:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, it depends!
20:35:56 <pikhq> (only half-joking)
20:36:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If it's a movie, look for a Blu-ray rip.
20:36:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If it looks too big, get a compressed version of that.
20:36:16 <elliott> Failing that, uh, order by file size and pick the largest one you feel like downloading.
20:36:39 <elliott> If it's a TV show, look for anything .mkv and it's probably decently done :P
20:36:50 <elliott> If it's anything else, I'm pretty sure pornography doesn't generally come in too many bitrate options.
20:36:57 <pikhq> I look for either the best-encoded h264 rip in .mkv or an actual ISO and encode it myself.
20:37:06 <fizzie> elliott: Well, they sell quasi-suitable parts too, if you don't want something that comes with an operating system. (I wouldn't buy their m0n0wall nonsense anyway, really. And MikroTik RouterOS, well...)
20:37:37 <fizzie> Quasi-suitable for when you want something that goes in a metal box and looks more routery than computery. :p
20:37:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you will appreciate google's logo today.
20:37:48 <elliott> fizzie: It will run Kitten, of course.
20:38:10 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I honestly didn't realise it was St. Andrew's day until I saw it stated explicitly.
20:39:01 <fizzie> That seems to be some sort of .co.uk Google special.
20:39:30 <elliott> Not even ... deep in your heart?
20:42:24 <pikhq> elliott: Well, I don't see it.
20:42:32 <pikhq> Ah, it's .co.uk only.
20:42:52 <pikhq> Suppose Americans would be confused by St. Andrew or something?
20:45:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, given that they're idiots who can't even deal with a flag on a logo.
20:46:58 <elliott> pikhq: Okay, seriously, do I have to do $(ls -A) as an argument to tar?
20:48:36 <elliott> pikhq: Why is tar badly-designed.
20:48:57 <fizzie> Why does the "./" annoy you there?
20:49:12 <elliott> fizzie: Try using file-roller on such a tar; you get "." as an actual directory there.
20:49:18 <elliott> OK, so that's probably file-roller's fault, but still.
20:49:18 <pikhq> elliott: This would be astoundingly easy to do with cpio.
20:49:23 <elliott> It does put the actual ./ in the tar.
20:49:43 <elliott> pikhq: Don't you usually pipe find to cpio?
20:49:54 <elliott> pikhq: In which case presumably it strips the ./?
20:51:59 <elliott> pikhq: Can I do --owner= and --group= with cpio? :p
20:52:11 <fizzie> Well, .deb's have the "./" inside them too, and it doesn't seem to bother anyone.
20:52:15 <pikhq> --owner=user:group
20:52:46 <pikhq> Or -R for the short option.
20:54:28 <elliott> pikhq: Is that POSIX-before-they-dropped-cpio?
20:54:41 <elliott> pikhq: Well, it's not busybox, just checked. >_<
20:55:14 <pikhq> Well, it is in BSD...
20:56:12 <fizzie> I mean the data-containing tar part.
20:56:59 <fizzie> (dpkg-deb -c blah.deb => files are like "./usr/share/foo"; I assume ./ is in the tar already.)
20:58:06 <elliott> Er, how does one list the contents of a tar file?
20:58:27 <elliott> fizzie: ls -A does work though.
20:59:42 <elliott> pikhq: If I use sh -e, and depend on
20:59:49 <elliott> exiting if it's not true, am I silly and/or hideous?
20:59:54 <elliott> As opposed to adding || exit 1.
21:05:13 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 370K Nov 30 21:04 vi.tar
21:05:26 <elliott> Admittedly it's not a real Kitten package; it's compiled with gcc, and dynamically linked with glibc.
21:06:14 <elliott> pikhq: Now I'm wondering how to do uninstallation.
21:06:34 <elliott> pikhq: I'm thinking: Each package has a manifest, which is a bunch of lines with "<sha128 hash or whatever> filename".
21:06:47 <elliott> pikhq: The uninstall script removes every file that hashes right, and prints out the ones that don't (presumably configuration files you've modified).
21:06:51 <elliott> You can then remove them yourself if you want to.
21:07:09 <elliott> Er, sha128 means sha1 doesn't it.
21:07:11 <pikhq> Probably the best simple way of doing it.
21:07:22 <elliott> pikhq: You'd better test Kitten when it's ready :P
21:07:36 <pikhq> In a VM, mind, but sure. :P
21:07:51 <elliott> pikhq: And then if it's decent on disk? I think being the only user would crush my soul. :p
21:08:01 <elliott> (When I declare it stable enough, of course.)
21:08:10 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:08:39 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, I'm still not sure how to do multilib, but I'm erring on the side of "keep it simple and if you want multilib you get to have the packages built on your machine".
21:08:47 <elliott> i.e. automated, but no binary packages.
21:09:00 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm, wait a second.
21:09:23 <elliott> pikhq: If I do static linking exclusively, then putting a package in /arch/foo even when it thinks it's meant to be in / shouldn't cause problems, right?
21:09:33 <elliott> pikhq: Stuff that puts its prefix in executables, sure.
21:09:41 <pikhq> elliott: In most cases, it shouldn't cause problems.
21:09:55 <elliott> pikhq: I'll just do that then. If it doesn't work you can build the package yourself.
21:10:32 <elliott> pikhq: Of course, as for actually supporting more than one platform and thus making this relevant, that will have to wait. Exclusively x86-64 to start with. :p
21:11:17 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:11:43 <Vorpal> elliott, I started a new single player game. Mostly to build a underwater fort in it as my main base. Found a HUGE underground cave with lots of lava lakes and waterfalls.
21:12:04 <Vorpal> elliott, below the sea too
21:12:11 <elliott> Vorpal: building it out of glass i hope
21:12:16 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot of stone pillars in the middle so you can't actually see from end to end
21:12:29 <Vorpal> elliott, that should pose no problem. I spawned on a desert next to the sea :P
21:12:59 <elliott> pikhq: Here's the incredibly complicated pkgbuild script: http://sprunge.us/GdVR
21:13:09 <elliott> pikhq: Although I think $(ls -A) breaks for filenames with spaces in them; patches welcome. :p
21:14:08 <Vorpal> elliott, estimated size from map for the huge cavern part: 200x50. And some way away there is one even larger , 100x100 or so. Which seems to be a lot more open and have one huge lava lake covering more than 2/3
21:14:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:15:06 <elliott> pikhq: But how can I call packages furballs if they're not tarballs? :p
21:15:14 <pikhq> elliott: cpio can make tarballs.
21:15:32 -!- augur has joined.
21:15:51 <pikhq> Damned BusyBox cpio.
21:16:19 <elliott> pikhq: Hey now, no insulting BusyBox.
21:16:28 <elliott> No, BusyBox doesn't have pax afaik.
21:16:43 <elliott> That will try and list the contents of the archive (directory list).
21:17:01 <elliott> pikhq: You mean "find . -depth -print | pax -wd >foo.tar", apparently.
21:17:08 <elliott> Not sure what that argument-less depth is all about.
21:17:37 <elliott> ATTENTION! pax archive volume change required.
21:17:37 <elliott> /dev/fd0 ready for archive volume: 2
21:17:37 <elliott> Load the NEXT STORAGE MEDIA (if required) and make sure it is WRITE ENABLED.
21:17:37 <elliott> Type "y" to continue, "." to quit pax, or "s" to switch to new device.
21:17:37 <elliott> If you cannot change storage media, type "s"
21:17:39 <elliott> Is the device ready and online? >
21:18:05 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/utilities/pax.html
21:18:09 <elliott> pikhq: Look at that fucking man page.
21:18:17 <elliott> (Is it still a man page if it has tables and diagrams?)
21:18:21 <elliott> pikhq: Most bloated tool EVAR
21:18:28 <elliott> Provide information to the implementation to modify the algorithm for extracting or writing files. The value of options shall consist of one or more comma-separated keywords of the form:
21:18:28 <elliott> keyword[[:]=value][,keyword[[:]=value], ...]
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21:18:38 <pikhq> elliott: Well, it *is* meant to replace cpio/tar/etc.
21:18:43 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but just LOOK at it.
21:18:59 <pikhq> ... Holy crap you can *change the algorithm*?
21:19:01 <elliott> Bleh, I'll just make tars with a . directory.
21:19:48 <elliott> pikhq: http://sprunge.us/bRhM
21:20:10 -!- nooga has joined.
21:22:02 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~/code/pkg$ make -n install
21:22:06 <elliott> Hmph, those duplicate /s really irk me.
21:22:28 <elliott> -p, --preserve-permissions, --same-permissions
21:22:28 <elliott> extract information about file permissions (default for superuser)
21:22:34 <elliott> ... tar lets this mode *not* be default?
21:22:48 <elliott> pikhq: Know what I love? CPIO.
21:25:26 <elliott> pikhq: Odd. -depth seems to put directories after their files when given no argument.
21:25:38 <elliott> Wait, it takes no argument.
21:25:46 <elliott> -depth Process each directory's contents before the directory itself.
21:25:46 <elliott> The -delete action also implies -depth.
21:26:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
21:27:38 <elliott> pikhq: So whaddya think. tar or cpio? :p
21:28:02 <elliott> pikhq: Ugh it is so *irritating* that cpio has no arguments to set owner/group.
21:29:12 <pikhq> elliott: -R owner:group
21:29:48 <elliott> pikhq: http://sprunge.us/SVSB
21:35:13 <elliott> pikhq: I will just use dd/shars
21:38:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:45:59 <elliott> pikhq: find -depth ! -name .
21:46:02 <elliott> pikhq: This is actually valid.
21:54:05 <Ilari> WHAT??? IPv4 unallocated block count is down to 7 (Confirmed from IANA allocation records).
21:58:09 <Ilari> One final allocation and it will be finished.
21:59:35 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:00:21 <Sgeo> Is there likely to be a Newspeak3 in the near future or have things settled down a little
22:00:25 <Ilari> The models seem to be quite optimistic w.r.t. reality...
22:00:32 * Sgeo wants to look at Newspeak more closely
22:01:02 <Sgeo> Forth helped me not go insane at Factor, Factor's listener might help me not go insane at Newspeak's... tools
22:02:44 <Ilari> The models have APNIC last, so this doesn't nominally change the depletion day...
22:06:30 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, I just realised.
22:06:38 <elliott> pikhq: The code section is shared between all instances of the busybox process.
22:07:02 <pikhq> Ilari: Wait, seriously?
22:07:45 <pikhq> RIPE allocated those.
22:08:04 <pikhq> And ARIN is allocating soon.
22:08:04 <Ilari> http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/
22:08:26 <pikhq> APNIC should be allocating soon...
22:08:57 <Ilari> And when that happens, it will end it.
22:10:10 <Ilari> BTW: Anyone got the reference in "One final allocation and it will be finished." and "And when that happens, it will end it."? :-)
22:12:23 <Sgeo> elliott, what is your opinion of Newspeak?
22:14:48 <pikhq> Wasn't this an insanely early allocation for RIPE?
22:15:00 <Sgeo> "So if you need to add a member to a module definition, you should be able check who is mixing it in and what names they have added."
22:15:04 <pikhq> I.e. possibly indicative of a run on the bank?
22:15:06 <Sgeo> Um... fuck you
22:15:23 <Sgeo> I'm just going to pretend I didn't read that.
22:15:49 <Vorpal> elliott, dug through to the huger open one
22:16:12 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe that mine seed thing would be nice
22:17:17 <Sgeo> Because I, module author, shouldn't have to check that no dumbasses anywhere in the world subclassed my module and added some name
22:20:45 <Vorpal> <Ilari> BTW: Anyone got the reference in "One final allocation and it will be finished." and "And when that happens, it will end it."? :-) <-- sounds familiar
22:21:33 <Ilari> Hint: The original forms were "Today, it will be finished!" and "This will end it!".
22:21:53 <Vorpal> Ilari, ah then I guess that webcomic referenced the same thing, whatever it was
22:22:14 <Ilari> (and it is a game).
22:22:16 <Vorpal> I have a vague memory of a web comic panel, no clue what webcomic
22:22:23 <Vorpal> Ilari, then I don't know
22:24:16 <Vorpal> ineiros, you have to update
22:24:44 <Vorpal> ineiros, tell me when it is done
22:24:51 <Vorpal> ineiros, not that I have much this this late
22:25:02 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
22:25:57 <ineiros> I think I'll still do it now.
22:26:18 <ineiros> I might be slightly intoxicated, though.
22:26:35 <fizzie> ineiros: Are you enjoying the glamorous life of a Minecraft server administrator, with demanding customers and SLAs to fulfill?
22:26:53 <fizzie> Also try not to wipe out the world.
22:28:40 <fizzie> Oh, and get yourself a pager we can bother you with for server updates. Possibly with some sort of electric-shock compliance enforcement option.
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22:33:24 <Vorpal> huh googling for IW LED I can't find much. But this flashlight states it uses IW LED at 30-60 lumen.
22:33:31 <fizzie> Hopefully not downgrading.
22:33:35 <Vorpal> it sure is extremely bright
22:33:56 <Vorpal> ineiros, you have a backup I hope?
22:34:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, shouldn't it simply be: backup, download new .jar and run it?
22:34:38 <ineiros> I think I managed to do it.
22:35:04 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever actually ran the servur.
22:35:59 <Vorpal> ineiros, I can login. But this is a wasteland I see
22:36:14 <Vorpal> ineiros, post-third worldway
22:36:17 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:36:27 <Vorpal> oh wait, it was just a vision ;P
22:37:23 <fizzie> Hey, the client remembered the server name (but not port).
22:37:43 <fizzie> Maybe some day he'll actually add that server list thing.
22:41:07 -!- Sasha has joined.
22:41:41 <Sgeo> elliott, you still haven't told me your opinion
22:46:19 <elliott> Galois, Inc. is pleased to announce the immediate release of the Haskell Lightweight Virtual Machine (or HaLVM), version 1.0. The HaLVM is a port of the GHC runtime system to the Xen hypervisor, allowing programmers to create Haskell programs that run directly on Xen’s “bare metal.” Internally, Galois has used this system in several projects with much success, and we hope y’all will have an equally great time with it.
22:48:00 <oerjan> an actually useful oxymoron
22:49:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: haskell.org got redesigned.
22:49:17 <elliott> http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell
22:51:56 * oerjan notes some broken images
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22:55:45 <Sgeo> There was an old woman who lived in a proxy
22:56:03 <Sgeo> "Linguistic Reflection via Mirrors" lecture spoiler
22:57:49 <elliott> pikhq: So, uh... any ideas other than having pkgbuild run as root?
22:57:53 <elliott> (Not going to setuid it root. Just no.)
22:58:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I wish I understood the newtype State s a = State { runState :: s -> (s,a) } thing
22:58:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's easy.
22:58:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ignore runState.
22:58:50 <elliott> newtype State s a = State (s -> (s, a))
22:58:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do you understand that?
22:59:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It takes a state and returns the modified state and the actual value.
22:59:19 <Sgeo> http://newspeaklanguage.org/newspeak-videos/
22:59:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes/no? :p
22:59:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, so runState is basically just an elaborate version of \x -> case x of State f -> f
23:00:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Can you give yes/no answers to yes/no questions rather than trying to think ahead?
23:00:29 <elliott> It is /really/ irritating trying to explain things to people in simple, obvious chunks and having them often completely misinterpret things because they're skipping ahead.
23:00:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, then:
23:01:04 <elliott> runstate :: State s a -> s -> (s, a)
23:01:15 <elliott> i.e., given a stateful computation, and an initial state, return the final state and the final result.
23:01:25 <elliott> runState (State f) s x = f s x
23:01:32 <oerjan> elliott: you are assuming he actually wants the explanation of the monad, while he is just asking for the syntax
23:01:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But since you can do record accessors with that syntax, you don't need this wrapper function.
23:01:41 <elliott> oerjan: actually, I was assuming he knew both
23:01:48 <elliott> oerjan: I was just explaining /why/ runState is done as an accessor (simplicity)
23:02:30 -!- mutt_d has left (?).
23:03:58 * Sgeo falls in love with mirrors
23:04:06 <oerjan> technically runState is a field name, you can put those in data definitions as well
23:05:42 <oerjan> and in that case they are also useful for pattern matching and modifying
23:07:44 <oerjan> if you have many fields especially, since you only need to mention the fields you actually use
23:09:32 <elliott> oerjan: sign of a bad data structure usually
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23:10:52 <elliott> [[This is a neat idea, but if the gov't wanted to stop us from communicating, they could just cut the cables and down the satellites.]]
23:11:00 <elliott> I would love to see someone cut an undersea internet cable.
23:11:09 <elliott> "...and I have a really big saw to do it with, too!"
23:11:29 <oerjan> ...it has happened before
23:12:02 <elliott> oerjan: the cutting of an *undersea* cable?
23:12:10 <elliott> if so, impressive! how big was the saw?
23:12:42 <oerjan> well cables getting cut, at least. i'm not sure they found the culprit
23:13:02 <elliott> oerjan: are you sure you don't just mean, like, regular cables?
23:13:07 <elliott> rather than the gigantic ones going across the ocean?
23:13:57 <oerjan> http://news.softpedia.com/news/Severed-Undersea-Internet-Cable-to-Disrupt-Service-in-India-140641.shtml
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23:15:30 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEA-ME-WE_4
23:15:33 <elliott> look at how fucking long it is!
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23:17:39 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I often wonder how long it will be until the terrorists wise up and get some thermite and diving gear.
23:17:58 <elliott> the combination of thermite and diving gear has to be the most awesome thing ever
23:18:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: also, OH NO THE INTERNET WENT OUT FOR A WHILE
23:18:17 <elliott> not quite apocalyptic yet.
23:18:38 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, "OH NO THE BACKBONE OF OUR COMMUNICATIONS AND HENCE ECONOMY WENT OUT"
23:18:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Of our *intra-continent* communiactions.
23:19:30 <elliott> pikhq: So! Should I use cpio or tar?
23:19:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, there's the transatlantic cable off the coast of Ireland.
23:22:35 <elliott> pikhq: Also, SHA-1 or SHA-224 or other for hashes in the manifest? I'm thinkin' just SHA-1 and make it SHA-3 whenever (as if that will ever be a problem).
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23:46:06 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, can one su to nobody? Nobody has no password, so...
23:46:53 <elliott> pikhq: Actually -- can one become nobody in a shell script, without the terminal seeing anything?
23:47:08 <elliott> I'd rather not depend on sudo, but I guess I could.
23:56:59 <oklopol> those were much funnier when you saw them in a huge list
23:57:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Reference to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oTsB-u-iPI.
23:57:09 <oklopol> even Vorpal knows what it's a reference to
23:57:10 <Vorpal> elliott, I know what it is a reference to....
23:57:11 <elliott> Which was meme-y a few years back.
23:57:19 <Vorpal> elliott, why else would I laugh at it
23:57:26 <elliott> oklopol: iirc he mentioned one of those in the list and someone had to point it out to him
23:57:30 <elliott> but anyway you can never be sure with Vorpal :D
23:57:38 <Vorpal> I haven't listened to it though
23:57:44 <Vorpal> but of course I know about it
23:57:46 <elliott> that thing got re-dubbed in english with completely unrelated lyrics, weirded me out when i heard it
23:57:52 <elliott> "he hasn't said 'bot' once yet"
23:58:45 <Vorpal> ineiros, Is it because of GRAA! that you feel insecure?
23:59:16 <Vorpal> ineiros, I was joking about ELIZA
23:59:17 <oklopol> his name is andy, andy is his name
23:59:26 <oklopol> and i guess this rhyme is kinda lame
23:59:40 <nooga> fffuuuuuuuuuuu C++
23:59:41 <Vorpal> hm is 60 lumen bright?
23:59:55 <nooga> i hate object types and references