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00:01:00 <Sgeo> Goosey is a Fooneticer
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00:01:36 <Phantom_Hoover__> elliott, that cavern connects to most of the caves in that area.
00:01:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover__: It does? Ha.
00:01:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover__: There are two massive caverns, I think.
00:02:18 <elliott> olsner: protip: using bios = shorter code :P
00:02:25 <Phantom_Hoover__> It's extremely large; I started exploring it a short distance from the end of the tunnel.
00:02:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover__: I end up getting stuck in circles before I get to too many places.
00:02:49 <elliott> (It is big even then, though.)
00:03:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover__: Also, which tunnel?
00:05:43 <Vorpal> I'd want to place a few torches outside to melt the snow :P
00:08:23 <Vorpal> elliott, Phantom_Hoover__: hah IF you know what to look for you can find part of my easter egg on the topo map
00:08:36 <Vorpal> but if you didn't know where to look and what to look for: not a chance
00:09:32 <Phantom_Hoover__> Vorpal, OK. I can't be bothered playing your little guessing game. I don't really care about pandering to your ego for your little terraforming project.
00:10:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, you completely misinterpret it
00:11:03 <Vorpal> of course you would concur with him. It is only to be expected.
00:11:27 <elliott> <vorpal> bawwwwwwwwwwww ;_;
00:11:47 <Vorpal> oh, oh. It's a sheep right?
00:12:37 <Phantom_Hoover__> Vorpal, if you've put work into something, show it to us, rather than annoying us.
00:12:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, I am however sure that ehird would hate it
00:13:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, besides it isn't done. :/
00:13:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, the completion time is erratic
00:13:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, since trees are involved
00:14:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, look on topo map :P
00:14:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, nice marker to west
00:14:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, since you called your direction "frigid north" I go for "wild west" and "exotic east"
00:15:24 <elliott> w=w, e=e. why? because f=n
00:16:08 <Vorpal> elliott, well no. Wild west because well you know
00:16:21 <Vorpal> and then what was the classical connotation of the east
00:16:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, so I did
00:16:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, it is 1x1 with a platform
00:16:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, I made no torch trail there
00:16:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, that is why I marked it with a tower
00:17:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, what?
00:17:39 <Vorpal> I'll tell when it is complete
00:17:56 <elliott> stfu about it until then, then
00:17:58 <Phantom_Hoover__> I'm assuming north or northwest, since you've mentioned snow and there's obviously been exploration that way.
00:19:01 <Vorpal> elliott, bah, part of it is performance art. That part is code named iHype
00:19:21 <Vorpal> should release some leaks soon ;P
00:22:07 <Phantom_Hoover__> Vorpal, this is seriously stupid. We don't really care what you're doing, since we have no idea what it is.
00:22:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover__, I'll let you in on it then. You might be able to help too
00:22:44 <Phantom_Hoover__> Stop being annoying about it; finish it in silence, then reveal it, or let us openly follow its development.
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00:40:58 <Vorpal> oerjan, duh that is a type signature
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00:44:06 <Vorpal> oerjan, what: "<oerjan> [0CA0]_[0CA0]"
00:44:15 <Vorpal> oerjan, that was no utf-8
00:44:22 <oerjan> apparently not even my own terminal shows that correctly (but it's fine in the logs)
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00:44:43 <Vorpal> oerjan, I can't load them atm
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00:45:51 <oerjan> um it's supposed to be utf-8. look of disapproval from reddit (technically some indian characters i think)
00:46:14 <zzo38> My terminal shows it as an unknown unicode character.
00:46:38 <oerjan> yeah it's common not to have it in your fonts, afaiu
00:47:55 <zzo38> (PuTTY (the terminal I use for IRC) displays invalid UTF-8 codes differently than unicode characters that are not available in the font.)
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00:48:13 <Sgeo> Dear Laptop: Fuck you
00:48:19 <oerjan> i also use putty, it just showed a blank space. font is courier new.
00:49:17 <oerjan> although it is set to do that recoding/translation stuff, so maybe it is trying to correct somehow.
00:49:42 <oerjan> but still, IE shows it correctly in the logs, and claims the page is utf-8
00:50:17 <elliott> <oerjan> um it's supposed to be utf-8. look of disapproval from reddit (technically some indian characters i think)
00:50:22 <oerjan> (that recoding means i still see things nicely when people are actually using iso-8859-1, i think
00:50:42 <elliott> usually the irc client converts to utf-8 not the termainl
00:50:52 * elliott wonders if oerjan has somehow managed to not realise i'm ehird
00:51:01 <elliott> let's go with yes, that's more amusing than no
00:51:04 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
00:51:32 <elliott> i suppose the annoyingness gives it away huh
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00:52:03 <elliott> hmph, why does this not work
00:52:32 <oerjan> elliott: well yeah it's obviously irssi converting iso-8859-1 on the channel into utf-8 on my screen
00:53:19 <oerjan> or well it should, i'm not sure i've seen it working since i changed my terminal to utf-8
00:53:46 <oerjan> it did convert both to iso-8859-1 as best it could before
00:54:21 <zzo38> oerjan: My font is also Courier New, but it shows not a blank space but a empty square often used for replacement of unknown unicode characters.
00:55:25 <pikhq> Huh. Squeeze to support ZFS root.
00:55:29 <oerjan> oh well. at least Phantom_Hoover's → showed up nicely.
00:56:39 <pikhq> elliott: How else?
00:56:56 <elliott> pikhq: There's a native port going on that is totally illegal to distribute a binary of. (They haven't bothered porting the POSIX layer yet though :P)
00:57:15 <elliott> ineiros_: Reliable way to get a server error and disconnect: Hit (in my case with a sword) a minecart you're in.
00:57:50 <pikhq> elliott: Mmm, illegal.
00:57:53 <elliott> pikhq: It occurs to me that a FUSE / is the stupidest idea ever.
00:57:56 <elliott> Also, not illegal when distributed as source.
00:58:03 <elliott> Could perfectly well go into Gentoo.
00:58:08 <pikhq> It'll certainly go into Gentoo.
00:58:24 <pikhq> They already offer things that are illegal to distribute as binaries, after all.
00:58:26 <zzo38> What makes it illegal to distribute the binary?
00:58:48 <pikhq> zzo38: The license for ZFS is GPL-incompatible.
00:59:13 <pikhq> Because Oracle (formerly Sun) hates progress.
00:59:41 <pikhq> And it would be highly impractical to implement ZFS from scratch.
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01:00:55 <pikhq> ZFS is *ridiculously* good.
01:01:30 <oerjan> so basically Oracle is the current Most Evil Company?
01:01:42 <oerjan> of the large contenders, anyway
01:02:05 <pikhq> oerjan: They have always been, really.
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01:02:20 <pikhq> Well, most evil tech company.
01:02:37 <pikhq> Monsanto and Dow blow all the tech companies away when it comes to evil.
01:03:14 * oerjan hadn't even heard of Dow before now
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01:03:50 <Vorpal> I haven't heard of either
01:04:33 <pikhq> Vorpal: They both manufactured Agent Orange.
01:04:40 <elliott> pikhq: Sun were actually one of the nicer tech companies.
01:04:47 <elliott> Which makes their acquisition all the more depressing.
01:04:54 <elliott> Vorpal: you don't know who monsanto are? lol.
01:05:02 <elliott> also even I knew who Dow are...
01:05:09 <pikhq> Dow Chemical is also notable for the worst industrial accident ever: Bhopal.
01:05:14 <Vorpal> elliott, the name is familiar
01:05:21 <pikhq> Some 16,000 died from that.
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01:05:36 <oerjan> monsanto makes genetically engineered food, modified in such a way that you _have_ to buy new seeds from them every season. probably other evil things, too.
01:05:45 <elliott> "@wikileaks Speaking as Wikipedia's co-founder, I consider you enemies of the U.S.--not just the government, but the people." -- Larry Sanger, Citizendium founder! (Also Wikipedia co-founder, but let's just try and forget that ever happened.)
01:06:08 <elliott> oerjan: they also do bad things to farmers who refuse to buy from them :p
01:06:10 <pikhq> oerjan: They're also a notable chemical manufacturer.
01:06:38 <pikhq> They produce the herbicides and the seeds that are resistant to them.
01:07:27 <elliott> pikhq: They sell water from Bhopal now: http://theyesmen.org/blog/dow-runs-scared-from-water
01:07:33 <elliott> pikhq: (I would link to the actual site but -- alas -- it is down.)
01:07:55 <pikhq> Oh, they've also done DDT.
01:08:31 <pikhq> ... And they had plans to eliminate all non-genetically-engineered members of species they do genetic engineering on.
01:08:39 <oerjan> if they were responsible for bhopal i guess must have heard the name, it's just so forgettable.
01:08:57 <pikhq> So, yeah, they're ridiculously evil.
01:09:02 <zzo38> I do not use herbicides and pesticides and those kind of generic engineering, they will mess up everything and I do not need it.
01:09:36 <elliott> zzo38: what if you were in an area with a shitload of mosquitos
01:11:06 <zzo38> elliott: Wear protection.
01:15:29 <zzo38> elliott: Not necessarily.
01:16:15 <zzo38> Of course that is a bad area to be in, in general; regardless of pesticides, full body suit, or anything else.
01:17:34 <oerjan> the northernmost county of norway is notorious for swarms of mosquitos. fortunately they don't have malaria, though.
01:17:56 <Vorpal> oerjan, similar for north Sweden
01:18:00 <zzo38> oerjan: Then that is good. Since they don't have malaria!
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01:18:38 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Malaria_geographic_distribution_2003.png It's hard to avoid malaria.
01:19:49 <oerjan> oh all of US is free? actually i'd guess some chemical companies would take the honor for that ;D
01:20:08 <pikhq> Yes, that's genuinely courtesy of DDT.
01:21:14 <Vorpal> <elliott> "@wikileaks Speaking as Wikipedia's co-founder, I consider you enemies of the U.S.--not just the government, but the people." -- Larry Sanger, Citizendium founder! (Also Wikipedia co-founder, but let's just try and forget that ever happened.) <-- what caused him to say that?
01:21:23 <oerjan> i am assuming with norway and many other of the green countries it is simply the cold. although i'm sure Italy had it once... the _name_ is from there after all
01:21:39 <elliott> Vorpal: "hurr revealing it puts the people at risk"
01:21:43 <zzo38> I think Wikileaks is the good idea
01:21:46 <elliott> Vorpal: presumably because of, i dunno, TERRISTS or something
01:22:26 <Vorpal> elliott, well I meant: anything specific lately
01:22:38 <pikhq> oerjan: Indeed, it was actually eradicated from Western Europe, the US, and Australia. Other places just never had it.
01:22:41 <elliott> it was in reply to an unrelated thing on the wikileaks twitter
01:22:47 <Sgeo> I thought Vorpal was asking about his distancing himself from Wikipedia
01:23:22 <Vorpal> you completely misread that
01:23:35 <Vorpal> look where the quotes are
01:24:16 <pikhq> Also, the risk is pretty close to nil outside of sub-Saharan Africa, anyways.
01:26:00 <Vorpal> oh major document release coming up tomorrow
01:26:07 <Vorpal> that is what caused it I presume
01:26:12 <oerjan> that "Speaking as Wikipedia's co-founder" just makes him sound desperate, naturally
01:26:26 <elliott> oerjan: especially as he basically hates wikipedia now :)
01:26:31 <oerjan> desperate for attention
01:27:09 <elliott> hmph why can't i use the bios putstr after using my vga memory cls...
01:28:44 <Sgeo> IMO, it depends on what's being released, and how much is being redacted
01:29:37 <elliott> Sgeo: If they redact anything I consider that a blight upon Wikileaks.
01:30:18 <Sgeo> elliott, individual names of people whose lives may be at risk if their names are publicised?
01:30:37 <elliott> Sgeo: Killed by who? The US government?
01:30:42 <elliott> You realise how blatantly transparent of them that would be?
01:31:50 <Vorpal> elliott, diplomatic cable messages it seems
01:31:55 <Sgeo> Maybe persons who've been cooperative with the US who infiltrate whoever? I'm not referring specificially to the upcoming release, I don't know what it's about
01:32:01 <Sgeo> I'm saying in genral
01:32:10 <Vorpal> elliott, like the embassies sending messages home
01:32:12 <elliott> Sgeo: If you restate that in a way that's actually coherent maybe you'll have a point.
01:32:24 <elliott> Vorpal: will be interesting to see.
01:32:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm sure this can cause some well needed embarrassment for some
01:33:27 <Vorpal> some news articles seem to indicate that israel was briefed about potential embarrassment by the US today. Ha. Ha.
01:33:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Admittedly the Wikileaks name is unfortunate; it used MediaWiki but was not much of a wiki. (And they've taken that down due to bandwidth, it seems, as well as all the pre-Iraq War logs leaks.)
01:33:43 <elliott> (Although the "Collateral Murder" video is probably still there.)
01:33:55 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, the US have been telling everyone "You won't like this!" and not much else
01:34:20 <elliott> Vorpal: meanwhile, your government still has a warrant out for Assange's arrest, and recently sentenced everyone in the Pirate Bay case to jail time.
01:34:23 <Sgeo> elliott, no, all _we_ know is that the US is saying "You won't like this"
01:34:37 <elliott> Sgeo: oh yeah i'm sure just that was leaked and nothing else
01:35:16 <Sgeo> elliott, the release hasn't happened yet, has it?
01:35:31 <Vorpal> elliott, Israel are still denying having nuclear weapons right?
01:35:46 <oerjan> <elliott> Sgeo: If you restate that in a way that's actually coherent maybe you'll have a point. <-- now you're just being dense on purpose.
01:36:04 <Vorpal> elliott, one thing to hope for then is that this contains proof for that
01:37:13 <elliott> Sgeo: i mean the fact that they were briefing others
01:37:24 <elliott> oerjan: not really, his statement was too vague to constitute much of an objection
01:38:22 <oerjan> elliott: yet you understand perfectly that there _may_ be people at risk - it was a major issue in previous leaks after all
01:39:13 <oerjan> although those were more directly concerned with war zones
01:39:40 <elliott> oerjan: well yes, if it was a war log thing i'd listen to that complaint more. but embassy messages?
01:39:46 <oerjan> (well may be. we don't know what will be leaked.)
01:39:47 <elliott> oerjan: besides afaik nobody has actually died.
01:39:56 <Sgeo> elliott, hence me saying in general
01:40:05 <elliott> oerjan: "Wikileaks to release 251,287 cables and 8,000 diplomatic directives, 1966-present, none classified as "top secret", only "secret"" --Der Spiegel
01:40:14 <elliott> (indirect quote via reddit :P)
01:40:20 <oerjan> elliott: embassy messages can contain things about informants, surely
01:40:59 <elliott> oerjan: sure, but nothing on the level of war logs.
01:41:12 <elliott> oerjan: and again i don't know that anyone's actually died.
01:41:24 <elliott> i think it's rather unlikely
01:41:25 <oerjan> also we may not know whether anyone has died, i'm sure the taliban and the like kill people on suspicion all the time
01:41:40 <elliott> oerjan: sure, but we'd expect to hear about it. usually.
01:41:44 <Sgeo> Still, anything with an informant's name should be redacted. Just the name. And other material containing enough detail to identify someone, perhaps
01:41:53 <elliott> oerjan: anyway i agree that care needs to be taken in sensitive situations.
01:42:02 <elliott> but definitely don't redact anyone not at risk
01:42:06 <elliott> and don't redact any high-profile figures
01:43:36 <oerjan> why would we hear about it? it may have been some nobody from a remote village who only spoke to someone once too much
01:43:39 <Sgeo> NetHack needs a FooTV and Sequell equivalent
01:44:31 <Sgeo> Was it confirmed that there were informant names present?
01:45:21 <pikhq> My primary complaint with Wikileaks is this: almost all of the information they've leaked is information that should never have been classified in the first place.
01:46:11 <pikhq> Or, even if it should have been, should not have been classified long.
01:46:44 <zzo38> pikhq: But that is why they leak it, isn't it?
01:47:21 <pikhq> zzo38: I'm just damned annoyed that there's anything *to leak*.
01:47:38 <elliott> pikhq: That's not really a complaint about Wikileaks :P
01:47:42 <zzo38> pikhq: Ah, are you annoyed by the government?
01:47:58 <pikhq> elliott: It's more concerning their existence than *about* them, yeah.
01:48:06 <elliott> pikhq: "My main complaint about Wikileaks is that the Iraq war should never have happened!"
01:48:09 <elliott> pikhq: bit of a weird thing to say
01:48:27 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, well, it's true. Fuck Bush so hard.
01:48:52 <elliott> pikhq: Obama isn't exactly perfect either :P
01:49:07 <Vorpal> elliott, better than Bush by far thouh
01:49:24 <Vorpal> elliott, also: pulling out *is* tricky
01:49:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Should have warn a war condom. Wait, what?
01:49:52 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, what indeed
01:49:53 <elliott> Vorpal: And sure, "by far", but really it's a tiny step to the left and people scream "communist".
01:50:03 <elliott> Fuck that, we know what real communists are and they're not Obama.
01:50:18 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed mostly done
01:50:20 <elliott> Obama is a right-wing corporatist, and so was Clinton. And so was just about every modern US president ever.
01:50:24 <Vorpal> elliott, but I meant to get here
01:51:33 <zzo38> My character in D&D game is ettercap; so, now they can make "secret society of those who kill ettercap" and some will be found in the game.
01:52:59 <pikhq> elliott: I don't think Obama's great. Bush was just a right bastard.
01:58:33 <Sgeo> Why the fuck is my computer beeping at me
01:58:55 <oerjan> hm obviously cognate with norwegian "edderkopp" - but is ettercap an old english word?
02:00:08 <elliott> oerjan: It's a network tool :P
02:00:24 <elliott> "An ettercap is one of a race of bestial spider-men aberrations in the Dungeons & Dragons game."
02:00:25 <zzo38> Please tell me if you think this ANSI program is wrong? http://sprunge.us/jTaA
02:00:27 <oerjan> even ettercap -windows -dungeons -sniff -monster gives no google hits not about either the tool or the d&d monster
02:00:30 <elliott> The name is derived from the Danish word for spider, edderkop, and is related to attercop, an archaic word for poisonous spider, used in J.R.R. Tolkien's The Hobbit.[citation needed]
02:00:50 <oerjan> ok so it's been mangled
02:01:11 <pikhq> So, it's a Tolkienism.
02:01:20 <oerjan> well not exactly that either
02:02:02 <Sgeo> MZM is a zzo38 thing?
02:02:14 <zzo38> Sgeo: MZM is a format used by MegaZeux.
02:07:58 <zzo38> I have suggested this "secret society" to the dungeon master (I prefer "referee", the term used in Icosahedral RPG)
02:08:35 <Sgeo> Different games use different terms
02:08:44 <Sgeo> Guess I wasn't aware there was a term besides DM and GM
02:10:29 <oerjan> i think i recall some game used "Storyteller"
02:10:53 <zzo38> oerjan: I suppose that term also works.
02:11:06 <zzo38> I still prefer "referee"
02:11:25 <Sgeo> I think most prefer to go with the term closely associated with the game
02:11:32 <Sgeo> DM for D&D, GM for Paranoia, etc
02:11:46 <Sgeo> DM for Paranoia really doesn't make sense, it's not a dungeon
02:11:58 <oerjan> World of Darkness, it seems
02:12:11 <zzo38> It is not always the dungeon in D&D, either. It is only sometimes.
02:13:14 <Gregor> I just spent an hour and a half tuning my melodica. Huge pain in the arse, but totally worth it, it sounds so much better now.
02:15:03 <zzo38> I like to make my character is monster character in D&D game. I also like to do the other strange thing with D&D game.
02:16:42 <zzo38> Do you like the other strange thing in D&D game?
02:21:24 <Sgeo> I found out where the beeping is coming from
02:21:41 <zzo38> Sgeo: Where is it coming from?
02:21:58 <Sgeo> That I wasn't paying any attention to
02:23:59 <elliott> Gregor: "tuning" your "melodica"
02:24:13 <Gregor> elliott: ... yes. Only without the quotes, since I was in fact tuning my melodica.
02:24:47 <elliott> Gregor: Yes. You were "tuning" "your" "melodica".
02:24:50 <elliott> Gregor: Or rather, you "were".
02:28:26 <elliott> "Gregor:" "You" "were" "tuning" "your" "melodica""."
02:28:51 <elliott> By which I mean "Aardvarks make such tasty bedtime snacks."
02:31:43 <zzo38> Next time my character is also monster character, but perhaps a different one, and perhaps a class I invent, with strange things not in the book.
02:33:42 <pikhq> What else could you mean?
02:34:13 <zzo38> pikhq: Maybe you could mean "This is not 'This is not a pipe'."
02:38:12 <zzo38> This is how it goes: Ettercap: "I am going to put a spell on you." Human: "What spell?" Ettercap: "I am going to put a 'This is not a pipe' spell on you." Real estate agent: "This is not 'This is not a pipe'."
02:39:25 <Sasha> The melodica's a cool dude
02:40:22 <oerjan> elliott: "Now" you are being "silly". By which i mean nearly always, and completely nuts.
02:40:24 <zzo38> This is how I play the game (where my character is the ettercap and your character is human)
02:40:31 <elliott> oerjan: "", by which I mean .
02:40:46 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, exactly. Is that, too, please.
02:40:50 <elliott> pikhq: ha ha, i just wanted dependent typing in haskell.
02:42:50 <oerjan> This is not "Dette er ikke 'Dies ist kein "Ceci n'est pas une pipe"'"
02:43:04 <zzo38> Now I have to invent a "This is not a pipe" spell. (Do you have idea?)
02:43:30 <oerjan> yes. each invocation has to be in a different language.
02:43:32 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, that is the better way, I think.
02:45:36 <elliott> pikhq: ha! I faked dependent types
02:46:31 <zzo38> When I invent this spell, then I can put this spell on someone/something, in the game.
02:46:49 <oerjan> (note: pipa is apparently very vulgar latin)
02:47:32 <zzo38> My character does know many different languages, including ones they cannot speak but can write.
02:47:47 <oerjan> well if you put it on a pipe, the effect should be obvious. but does it have any effect on things that are already not pipes?
02:48:22 <zzo38> oerjan: Maybe it does, but I do not know what it is (yet). (Because the spell is not written, yet)
02:54:26 * oerjan assumes elliott realizes that was a pun on the fact that "vulgar" in "vulgar latin" is not quite the same as its modern meaning
02:54:31 <zzo38> (But, the other guy I put the spell on is not necessarily human, they might even be also ettercap, for instance. Or, even a normal animal or a inanimate object, or the air, or on another of my own spell.)
02:55:24 <oerjan> although given the word in question, it probably has attracted the modern sense too
03:00:28 <zzo38> When I say the spell is called "This is not a pipe", I do not necessarily mean that its target will be not a pipe, what I do mean is that that spell itself is not a pipe.
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03:01:54 <oerjan> a very self-conscious spell.
03:04:28 <zzo38> (Maybe it could mean a pipe similar to how it means a pipe in UNIX.)
03:05:02 <oerjan> i was sort of thinking it could use the widest possible sense of "pipe", so yeah
03:05:46 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, use the widest possible sense of "pipe".
03:06:45 <oerjan> havoc might be had if someone managed to find a sense in which the spell actually _was_ a pipe
03:07:17 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, and that is (part of) the effect of this spell, I guess?
03:07:57 <elliott> GOAL: Write a specialiser for the lambda calculus. PARTIAL RESULT: 39 lines of implementing the "Fin n" type in Haskell.
03:08:34 <zzo38> s/specialiser/spellcaster/
03:08:42 <elliott> in fact only really 18, since the rest are just helper functions. but still
03:09:01 <zzo38> elliott: Correct, I was just joking, plese.
03:12:41 <elliott> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: n = S n
03:13:42 <oerjan> YOUR FAKE TYPES FOOL NO ONE
03:14:05 <Sgeo> Isn't there some extension that bypasses that?
03:16:10 <elliott> Sgeo: no, that would completely break the type system
03:16:24 * oerjan appears to have shifted his puzzle addiction from killer sudoku to light up
03:17:10 <oerjan> i don't think it's so much that it would break as that it would make a _lot_ of things accidentally type correctly which you wouldn't want to
03:17:36 <elliott> oerjan: i think it actually makes the system unsound, not sure
03:17:38 <oerjan> after all, ocaml _does_ have a a switch to turn it off
03:17:49 <elliott> oerjan: i distinctly recall coding something impossible using ocaml's switch to do that
03:18:32 <elliott> oerjan: i don't recall how :D
03:18:47 <elliott> i am probably misremembering
03:19:27 <oerjan> i used it in my unlambda "compiler" with afaik no ill effect
03:19:42 <oerjan> of course i wasn't trying to break anything
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03:20:40 <oerjan> and anyway haskell has newtypes which give you the same efficiency in the compiled program
03:20:41 <elliott> Expected type: Fin (S n) -> LC (S t1) -> t -> LC (S n1)
03:20:41 <elliott> Inferred type: Fin n -> t -> LC t1 -> t2
03:20:49 <elliott> haskell: 99% typechecking, 1% coding!
03:20:59 <elliott> now to figure out what i actually did wrong
03:21:11 <elliott> a simple problem for once :D
03:21:36 <elliott> oerjan: convince me not to write this in coq
03:21:49 * oerjan doesn't see why he should
03:22:21 <elliott> oerjan: because dude, coq.
03:22:47 <oerjan> i don't even really know coq, anyway
03:25:09 <elliott> oerjan: and you know haskell! all the more reason
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03:26:22 <elliott> lol, writing this out i just realised i essentially have a >= condition in my type
03:30:23 <elliott> {-# LANGUAGE GADTs, EmptyDataDecls, ScopedTypeVariables, MultiParamTypeClasses #-}
03:30:27 <elliott> translation: your program will never work
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03:31:21 <oerjan> of course it will work, just avoid IncoherentInstances >:)
03:32:16 <elliott> oerjan: you know, if i didn't bother with all this type-level stuff and just allowed my programs to barf on invalid lambda calculus programs, this would work fine
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03:44:50 <wxl> can someone explain to me why the Fugue cat example is equivalent to 2(?!) in Prelude and not ?(?!) or ?(!?) {equivalent to brainfuck ,[.,]}
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03:46:14 <wxl> to revise the question, i don't get why pushing 2 makes it work. ?(?!) has equivalent function, yet pushing two and asking for input certainly isn't equivalent.
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03:48:41 <elliott> wxl: i doubt we have any experts on prelude here :D
03:49:10 <elliott> wxl: perhaps it isn't equivalent and someone made a mistake?
03:49:14 <wxl> well it's a single voice program which makes it a little more approachable
03:49:23 <wxl> well they both work, which is what's odd
03:49:31 <zzo38> wxl: You can also post the question on the wiki, as well.
03:50:02 <wxl> ah there's a thought
03:52:05 <oerjan> wxl: i think 2(?!) is equivalent to ?(!?)
03:52:30 <wxl> oerjan: explain?
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03:53:21 <oerjan> i think 2(?!) is equivalent _except_ that it doesn't stop on character 0
03:54:45 <oerjan> because the 2 is always what remains on the stack when checking the loop
03:55:36 <oerjan> so dependent on how the implementation treats eof, it might happen to/seem to work
03:56:46 <elliott> lol subst is the most fucked up function ever why
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03:57:34 <wxl> oerjan: they both seem to have no problem with eof.. of course, as you said, the implementation may have something to do with it
03:58:04 <elliott> subst :: (Peano n) => LC n -> LC (S n) -> LC n
03:58:05 <elliott> subst r (Lam e) = Lam (subst r e)
03:58:10 <elliott> why the heck does this fail...
03:59:04 <oerjan> i note that the eof behavior was one of the ambiguities resolved in the http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Prelude&diff=7938&oldid=6758 edit
04:00:23 <oerjan> so maybe one or more of the implementations is older than that
04:01:53 <wxl> i guess that's part of the joy of esolangs: the esoteric, uh ness.
04:02:22 <oerjan> wxl: you could also try asking lament, he is on freenode just not presently on this channel
04:03:14 <oerjan> he doesn't come here very often these days
04:03:54 <elliott> i will read http://www.itu.dk/people/sestoft/pebook/ soon
04:04:06 <elliott> oerjan: i already told him to :)
04:04:09 <elliott> that's why he's still here :P
04:06:48 <elliott> grrrrr, why is haskell inadequate for this
04:06:52 <elliott> i just wanna write a specialiser
04:08:09 <elliott> fuck it, i'll accept invalid programs
04:16:47 <zzo38> Many computer baseball game, but there is not one of cricket? Probably to make a computer cricket game, the accurate physics would be much more important.
04:25:13 <oerjan> http://www.eliteskills.com/z/149741
04:26:03 <pikhq> elliott: Specialisers are hard.
04:26:18 <elliott> pikhq: in this case it was problems with haskell's inadequate type system :)
04:26:38 <oerjan> zzo38: also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Cricket_video_games
04:27:22 <elliott> pikhq: anyway, specialising the untyped lambda calculus, what could be easier, it's basically beta reduction's retarded cousin :)
04:27:53 <zzo38> oerjan: Is it true that accurate physics are more important? Or not?
04:28:35 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't know cricket.
04:29:48 <zzo38> Actually all the games have unrealistic physics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Beach_Sports
04:30:12 <zzo38> I do not know how good the physics compares with the Bocce game in the book "More BASIC Computer Games".
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04:33:23 <elliott> hmm, does Y Y reduce to Y Y or does it grow forever?
04:33:30 <elliott> (ignoring the obvious equivalence, I mean under standard simplifications)
04:37:12 <elliott> pikhq: ok i underestimated the difficulty of a good specialiser
04:38:13 <oerjan> i recall in 0x29A the SII(SII) equivalent grew indefinitely
04:38:41 <oerjan> and that it was basically because Ix wasn't simplified to x other than in head position
04:41:01 <elliott> oerjan: that's not quite Y Y though :P
04:41:21 <elliott> oerjan: simplify :: LC -> LC is one of the gnarliest operations ever
04:41:26 <oerjan> it might depend on the order of your reductions anyway
04:41:30 <elliott> it's basically eval, except you can't do anything that might not terminate. great!
04:41:41 <oerjan> whether you ever get to all that you _could_ have reduced
04:42:03 <elliott> oerjan: is that a deep philosophical treatise
04:42:31 <elliott> my specialiser is too dumb to be able to specialise iszero on zero to true :D
04:42:47 <oerjan> no, but you see if you have something like Ix deep inside your term you _could_ reduce it immediately but you don't need to just to get a correct evaluation
04:43:25 <oerjan> and if you only reduce lazily, you probably won't
04:44:49 <oerjan> SII(SII) -> I(SII)(I(SII)) -> SII(I(SII)) -> I(I(SII))(I(I(SII))) -> I(SII)(I(I(SII))) -> SII(I(I(SII))) -> I(I(I(SII)))(I(I(I(SII))))
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04:47:22 <oerjan> otoh the LC version of that doesn't have that problem: (λx.xx)(λx.xx) -> (λx.xx)(λx.xx)
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04:47:28 <elliott> oerjan: the problem, of course, being that a specialiser is basically just a simplifier of ((\x. E) y); i.e., id is a perfectly "good" specialiser
04:47:34 <elliott> so all this stuff ends up actually mattering :)
04:47:39 <elliott> and there's no clear definition of how to "simplify" something
04:49:35 <oerjan> elliott: have you looked at my unlambda improved abstraction eliminator in scheme? it basically did only simplifications that shrink the result, iirc. mainly ignoring evaluating Sxyz, i think
04:49:49 <elliott> oerjan: no -- got a link? i guess i could grep your website
04:49:59 <elliott> oerjan: lambda expressions of course make this a lot harder :)
04:50:24 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ulify2.scm
04:50:40 <oerjan> it's based on an earlier one in the distribution
04:51:48 <oerjan> oh and it uses some hairy unlambda specific stuff like `d`k...
04:52:19 <elliott> oerjan: wow @ this program
04:53:00 <oerjan> er is that sarcasm or not? :D
04:53:24 <elliott> oerjan: yes. yes it is. :P
04:53:37 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
04:53:41 <elliott> oerjan: hey, it uses inertness like i do!
04:53:45 <elliott> that's, uh, not much of an achievement
04:55:22 <elliott> oerjan: now my TRUE plan is of course to first write a specialiser for the lambda calculus written in haskell outputting lambda calculus, and then write a specialiser for the lambda calculus in haskell outputting C, and then write an interpreter for the lambda calculus in the lambda calculus
04:55:40 <elliott> oerjan: and then running specialiserToC interpL interpL
04:55:57 <elliott> oerjan: thus giving me an efficient interpreter of the lambda calculus in C! MWAHHAHA
04:56:15 <elliott> oerjan: then I shall write a language sitting atop of the lambda calculus, and reimplement my two specialisers in that.
04:56:36 <elliott> oerjan: then i shall do, in my language, (specialiserToC specialiserToC specialiserToC)
04:56:50 <elliott> this will create a C program that, uh
04:57:09 <oerjan> are you doing pure lambda calculus? in which case inertness would just be termination, no?
04:57:22 <elliott> oerjan: this will create a C program that takes an interpreter for a language written in a lambda calculus, and results in a compiler for that language written in C
04:57:40 <elliott> oerjan: and then -- and THEN -- I will write an operating system in the lambda calculus. and it will be efficient, dammit.
04:58:20 <elliott> oerjan: I use inert to mean "not an application"
04:58:25 <elliott> i.e. a lambda or a variable reference
04:58:37 <oerjan> i was going to suggest a MWAHAHA there but i see you already did one
04:58:50 <elliott> oerjan: so if eval x == x, then if it's inert, the final evaluation result is that; otherwise you just infinite-loop forever
04:58:56 <elliott> (if they aren't equal you continue evaluating like normal obviously)
04:59:18 <elliott> oerjan: eval being one step there
05:02:24 <elliott> oerjan: anyway all of this falls down because the lambda calculus is too much of a goddamn lambda-and-application soup to do any decent simplification/optimisation/compilation of :)
05:03:53 <oerjan> i'm thinking about linearity, specifically functions that only use their arguments once. simplifying those is guaranteed to terminate
05:04:04 <oerjan> *once or less, actually
05:04:21 <oerjan> this would at least allow simplifications of things involving i and k
05:04:44 <zzo38> Do you think this is good so far? Any opinion/changes? http://sprunge.us/UZCN
05:05:40 <elliott> zzo38: that license is terrible, it seems incredibly shaky.
05:06:37 <zzo38> elliott: What would you suggest to change it so that it works?
05:07:10 * oerjan generally assumes than one shouldn't try to write a license unless one is a lawyer
05:07:41 <elliott> zzo38: Not using the GPL3 with a linking exception? Just use the LGPL...
05:08:09 <Goosey> Assumptions shouldn't be made in licenses
05:08:14 <Goosey> That's how you get fucked.
05:08:18 <zzo38> elliott: But I only want to allow this kind of linking in certain circumstances!
05:09:14 <pikhq> zzo38: Enter law school, or at least read copyright law.
05:09:28 <zzo38> If I cannot work this exception, I will probably just remove it and have the proper GNU GPL v3 in effect.
05:09:47 <Goosey> 20$ no one will even care about it anyways.
05:09:49 <zzo38> pikhq: If you have done so, can you make any suggestions regarding this license exception?
05:09:50 <Goosey> Thanks, give me my money.
05:10:29 <Goosey> And lol. I was thinking befunge for a second, that's a lot of ends...
05:11:07 <zzo38> pikhq: OK those are some suggestions, but I do not think I will do so. I will just remove the exception and use the GPLv3.
05:11:26 <zzo38> (Unless any better suggestions regarding the exception come)
05:11:39 <pikhq> Or at a minimum, read the GPLv3 and the LGPLv3's additional clause...
05:11:50 <pikhq> Especially the part about additional permissions.
05:11:59 <zzo38> OK I will read that.
05:12:43 <zzo38> Basically what I want, is to allow someone to use a part of a code for another roguelike to build a front-end for Secrets of SoS.
05:12:56 <zzo38> Even if that other code is not GPL'd.
05:13:23 <pikhq> Why, exactly, are you so adamant about it being GPL'd
05:13:29 <elliott> zzo38: what if it's like that except they wrote the code?
05:13:54 <pikhq> LGPL is really truly what you want. You may not realise it, but it is what you want.
05:14:12 <pikhq> (or, of course, a more permissive license)
05:15:30 <zzo38> elliott: It does not matter who wrote the code. I am also OK with it if someone wants to write a front-end but does not like the GPL.
05:15:42 <elliott> zzo38: then you want the LGPL, basically
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05:17:10 <Gregor> Just add a clause "The Software should be used for Good, not Evil." That way, it'll look good, but actually nobody'll be legally allowed to use it at all.
05:17:37 <zzo38> Maybe I will look at LGPL, then. But I am not quite sure that I want *all* additional permissions of the LGPL.
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05:17:58 <zzo38> Gregor: I do not want such a clause. It is not even sensible, nor properly meaningful.
05:18:12 <Gregor> zzo38: No, it isn't, it's totally stupid and horrible :P
05:18:21 <Gregor> zzo38: Douglas Crockford uses it for some software because he's an idiot :P
05:18:49 <pikhq> zzo38: The LGPL offers *an* additional permission, IIRC.
05:19:18 <elliott> Gregor: concur w/ Douglas Crockford being an idiot
05:19:26 <elliott> Gregor: dunno why he's so popular
05:19:40 <elliott> Gregor: his most famous invention is the literals of another language :)
05:19:46 <zzo38> Gregor: I do agree that that "Good, not Evil" clause is stupid and evil, though.
05:21:17 <zzo38> What if I write "This program is licensed by LGPL, but modified versions must be licensed under GPL unless the original author gives you permission to license under LGPL and this version is still licensed under LGPL (but you have a modified version under GPL, you may not relicense it under LGPL under any circumstances)"?
05:21:54 <zzo38> s/and evil/and horrible/
05:21:56 <Gregor> Then that's not the LGPL.
05:22:22 <pikhq> zzo38: "2+2=4 but 2+2≠4" makes as much sense.
05:22:29 <Gregor> I'd recommend something more like licensing it under the GPL disjuncted with a license that allows redistribution in any form but no modification.
05:22:41 <pikhq> I'd recommend LGPL.
05:22:53 <Gregor> pikhq: Well, I mean to accomplish this particular strange goal ;)
05:23:03 <Gregor> I wouldn't actually recommend that :P
05:23:40 <pikhq> Obviously, I'm trying to give sane recommendations, not satisfy zzo38's NIH when it comes to licensing.
05:23:40 <zzo38> Gregor: I suppose that is one way. (I have seen programs, that while not the GPL, do have a license that give explicit permissions separately both for modified and for unmodified versions.)
05:23:47 <zzo38> (In a similar way)
05:24:01 <elliott> zzo38: I think your software does not meet the FSF's definition of Free.
05:24:14 <elliott> Or Debian's, so you can't have your program included in Debian.
05:24:17 <zzo38> pikhq: I understand that; that is OK.
05:24:34 <Gregor> elliott: Sure it does, it's GPL in the worst case.
05:24:46 <zzo38> elliott: I think it does meet the FSF's definition of Free. You may relicense under the GNU GPL v3 and therefore it is properly Free.
05:24:47 <elliott> Gregor: well it shouldn't >:)
05:24:56 <pikhq> It would, however, make Debian very angry at you.
05:25:01 <pikhq> Likewise with Gentoo.
05:25:32 <Gregor> Just make a disjunct license so that the distros can choose to use it under GPL if they please. Trying to make weird compound licenses is a bad idea.
05:25:48 <zzo38> pikhq: Then let Debian change the license to the GNU GPL only if somebody wants to maintain a package of this program for Debian.
05:25:51 <Gregor> Just have it be under the GPL, or some modified version of say BSD that disallows further modification unless you redistribute under exclusively the GPL.
05:26:25 <zzo38> Gregor: That is an idea.
05:26:34 <Gregor> (Note: disjunctive licensing is not a compound license, it is a choice of licenses :P )
05:26:52 <Gregor> This is actually not the worst licensing idea I've ever heard.
05:27:01 <pikhq> LGPL it, please. What you want to do is wrong.
05:27:09 <elliott> Gregor: Why, do you talk to rms on a daily basis?
05:27:15 <pikhq> Much more wrong than parsing HTML with regexps.
05:27:23 <elliott> Gregor: "I've been thinking about requiring people to distribute a copy of the GNU Manifesto with every GPLv4'd program..."
05:27:25 <zzo38> Gregor: I understand at least that much about compound license (I think).
05:27:27 <Gregor> pikhq: Dood, I parse HTML with regexps EVERY DAY
05:27:36 <pikhq> Gregor: May God have mercy on your soul.
05:27:42 <elliott> <pikhq> [bothers Gregor for the next 700 yeras]
05:27:58 <pikhq> elliott: HTML is impossible to parse with regexps. The pain and agony he suffers from it should suffice.
05:28:08 <Goosey> I'm going to dedicate myself to learning 5 of the most esoteric languages
05:28:21 <elliott> Goosey: The 5 best, or the 5 most esoteric?
05:28:33 <zzo38> elliott: If the GNU Manifesto must be distributed with every GPLv4'd program, then just make it part of the license. And then it already says you have to distribute the license and that is good enough. But what about a problem in case it makes the license too long, then?
05:28:40 <pikhq> You must learn Homespring.
05:28:43 <elliott> Goosey: 5 classics: INTERCAL, Underload, Unlambda, Befunge-93, [insert a language].
05:28:58 <pikhq> elliott: Homespring!
05:28:59 <Goosey> I'll add them to the list to try
05:29:09 <Goosey> I'll learn befunge for sure
05:29:10 <elliott> Goosey: 5 most esoteric: Some kind of 2L/1L, Bitwise Cyclic Tag, Homespring, not sure what else.
05:30:18 <elliott> oerjan: now i want to write a self-interpreter in /// :D
05:30:47 <elliott> oerjan: which, ow, just hurts my brain
05:30:56 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Slashes
05:31:40 <oerjan> elliott: you probably want to use Itflabtijtslwi
05:31:59 <elliott> oerjan: i don't see why, your BCT interpreter didn't
05:32:28 <Gregor> Y'know what I don't get? The licenses of jQuery and Mozilla.
05:32:29 <oerjan> well true but then you need to encode the interpreted program into it
05:32:44 <Gregor> Having disjunctive licenses where one is strictly more restrictive than another is nonsense.
05:32:55 <Goosey> Slashes is awesome looking
05:33:10 <elliott> Gregor: jquery is mit/gpl, wtf. but mozilla is mpl/gpl/apache iirc
05:33:15 <elliott> which makes more sense since they're all crazy
05:33:18 <Gregor> elliott: Mozilla is MPL/GPL/LGPL
05:33:27 <elliott> oerjan: just escape everything :P
05:33:28 <Gregor> elliott: It's the GPL/LGPL part that's nonsense.
05:33:52 <oerjan> Goosey: it took several years to find out that /// actually was turing complete
05:35:47 <oerjan> elliott: sure it's just that Itflabtijtslwi is powerful enough to do that initial escaping for you
05:35:58 <elliott> Goosey: well, it's probably the esolang with the simplest semantics. or close.
05:36:03 <zzo38> I think perhaps the GPL v4 should allow you to have a work licensed under the LGPL with the original author / copyright holder allowed to add rules indicating under what conditions you are allowed to keep the LGPL for modified versions; otherwise you must switch to GPL.
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05:36:06 <elliott> and afaik nobody's actually written a program in it to do anything
05:36:27 <zzo38> I also think the GPL v4 should have something that makes it work a bit better for literate programming.
05:36:55 <zzo38> (Literate programming is when the covered work is both a book and a program simultaneously)
05:37:08 <oerjan> Goosey: BCT cannot _do_ much, but it's turing complete and extremely simple to implement in other things
05:37:22 <Goosey> BCT IS TURING COMPLETE?
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05:37:43 <oerjan> yep. that's how i showed /// was, by implementing BCT in it
05:38:06 <pikhq> I think that copyright law should cease to be.
05:38:17 <pikhq> And then GPLv4 will never be.
05:38:58 <zzo38> pikhq: I am OK with that if copyright law ceases, as long as patent law also ceases.
05:39:30 <pikhq> Patent law doesn't need *removed*, it just needs rewritten by non-morons.
05:40:04 <elliott> pikhq: patents are less useful than copyright
05:40:15 <elliott> i don't see any reason to keep them and abolish copyright
05:40:25 <zzo38> I think patent law does need to be removed, regardless of whether or not copyright law is removed.
05:41:00 <pikhq> elliott: Patents still possess some validity in the modern day and age. On physical inventions. Though the length of the patent grant is absurdly long.
05:41:22 <pikhq> Copyright, however, is completely and utterly outmoded by cp(1).
05:42:07 <pikhq> Software, "idea", and genetic patents, though, are worse than worthless.
05:42:13 <pikhq> They genuinely hold back industry.
05:42:33 <elliott> *** note to self http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/ftpdir/reports/2003/YCST/04/YCST-2003-04.pdf lazy specialisation
05:42:35 <zzo38> But trademark is good thing. Patent is bad thing.
05:42:37 <elliott> i need a bookmarking sysstem
05:42:50 <elliott> http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/emphasizing-specialization/ also
05:42:56 <pikhq> zzo38: Trademark is not merely a good thing, but the *laws* on it are mostly good as well!
05:43:00 <elliott> http://thyer.name/phd-thesis/
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05:43:12 <elliott> lazy specialisation is probably The One True Type of Language Implementation
05:43:20 <pikhq> The only problem is that it goes through the court system.
05:43:22 <elliott> "It is demonstrated that a completely lazy evaluator is capable of eliminating towers of interpreters."
05:43:30 <pikhq> And the courts are highly flawed ATM.
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05:45:47 <elliott> http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/emphasizing-specialization/#comment-863 ooh.
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05:49:06 <zzo38> The LGPL is what I want except that I want modified versions only under the GPL.
05:50:04 <zzo38> (That is, no extensions of exceptions.)
05:51:29 <Goosey> dimensifuck looks awesome :D
05:54:00 <pikhq> Goosey: Thank you.
05:54:30 <pikhq> I'm Josiah "pikhq" Worcester.
05:54:53 * Sgeo wonders if Goosey will come across PSOX
05:55:32 <pikhq> Yeah. What can I say, high school was boring.
05:55:59 <Goosey> I can't find any interpreters :(
05:56:01 * Sgeo wonders if Goosey's head will explode when he meets zzo38
05:56:05 <zzo38> Another difference with literate programming is the way header files work (see section 3 of the LGPL).
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05:57:07 <Sgeo> That's a letter o
05:57:35 <Sgeo> Goosey, yeah, not my proudest moment
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05:58:43 <pikhq> A guy with the most awesome case of NIH you'll ever meet.
05:59:13 <Goosey> he's made a bit of stuff
06:00:01 <oerjan> Goosey: seems the dimensifuck implementations are not even on wayback machine yet, though they sometimes take time to make it available
06:00:01 <Sgeo> One of his languages refers to one of my languages </attempt-to-be-relevant>
06:00:23 <oerjan> Goosey: zzo38 is right here too you know :D
06:00:32 <oklopol> oh hey df is actually not completely retarded
06:00:56 <oklopol> pikhq: sorry for always thinking df was bf with an infinite dimensional tape :D
06:01:39 <pikhq> oklopol: Nope, infinite dimensional code space. At least *somewhat* interesting. :)
06:01:43 <oerjan> pikhq: do you have copies of any dimensifuck implementation?
06:01:58 <pikhq> oerjan: I can check.
06:02:11 <Goosey> give me it to me too :P
06:03:10 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/CWiJ Okay, here's a quick Python library that implements it.
06:03:23 <pikhq> Uh, to actually use it...
06:03:45 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/dVaX
06:03:57 <oklopol> you're a fast coder and uploader
06:04:12 <pikhq> oklopol: Copyright © 2006...
06:04:26 <pikhq> And not even my code. :P
06:04:33 <zzo38> Sgeo: Which refers to one of your languages? (Now I forgot)
06:04:46 <Sgeo> GrainFimple refers to BF-RLE
06:05:18 <zzo38> Actually many of the esolangs I wrote refer to other people's esolangs.
06:05:25 <Sgeo> Although BF-RLE is no more a separate language than Ook! is, so
06:05:32 <oerjan> is sprunge.us suitable for linking to from the wiki?
06:05:34 <Sgeo> Just BF-RLE has a purposes besides looking weird
06:05:54 <pikhq> oerjan: Pretty sure they recycle pastes.
06:05:59 <Goosey> shouldn't you just call it ForwardFuck
06:06:13 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes but they should be replaced by different links as soon as possible
06:06:13 <pikhq> I need a web host.
06:06:32 <zzo38> Goosey: If you read the description of Reverse-ReverseFuck, you can see why I shouldn't just call it ForwardFuck.
06:06:50 <Goosey> Yeah, I read it, I just thought that sounded pretty good. :P
06:07:13 <oerjan> anyone here who can upload to the esoarchive?
06:07:40 <Sgeo> I can upload to my DiagonalFish space
06:08:28 <zzo38> Goosey: And (just so you know if you want) I have written many other things too besides esolang
06:08:41 -!- Sgeo has left (?).
06:08:45 -!- Sgeo has joined.
06:08:57 <Sgeo> A web browser, an IRC client
06:09:12 <zzo38> Sgeo: I think the message after PART is not logged in the clog?
06:09:33 <Goosey> zzo38 Cool, I'll be back tomorrow :)
06:09:40 <Sgeo> 22:08:41 --- part: Sgeo left #esoteric
06:09:40 <Sgeo> 22:08:45 --- join: Sgeo (~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net) joined #esoteric
06:09:40 <Sgeo> 22:08:57 <Sgeo> A web browser, an IRC client
06:10:00 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, the "Leaving" part is not logged there.
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06:10:38 <oklopol> on the other hand reverse-reversefuck is not something i would call not completely retarded
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06:11:07 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes I guess that is one way posting a message viewable anyone by the channel and not appear in the logs.
06:11:10 <oerjan> pikhq: the dimensifuck page also contains a broken link to pikhq.nonlogic.org
06:11:38 <pikhq> oerjan: Yeah, nonlogic has been down for a couple years now.
06:11:54 <Sgeo> How nonlogical
06:12:00 <oklopol> hey i just implemented a language it's called rot13weird and basically it's you write a program and then it's rot13'd and run as wierd code
06:12:08 <zzo38> However, CthulhuIRCd logs exactly what is sent to every client on the channel, with a timestamp. (Hence the rule in SIRCL requiring line-endings to be CRLF even on UNIX)
06:12:35 <oklopol> numbers are rot13'd by adding |N|/2 modulo |N|
06:12:37 <zzo38> It is the requirement of SIRCL that the logs are logged in that way.
06:12:58 <Sgeo> Remind me not to give you my password in SIRCL
06:13:06 <oerjan> oklopol: NUMBERS DON'T WORK THAT WAY
06:13:11 <Sgeo> Or tell you my deep dark evil secrets
06:13:33 <zzo38> SIRCL: Why would you ever do that anyways? There is no need to give me your password in SIRCL.
06:13:36 <oklopol> i have an exam on ERGODIC THEORY tomorrow, i think i know how numbers work.
06:13:51 <Sgeo> zzo38, it was a joke, I was not seriously planning on giving you any password
06:13:52 <oerjan> you cannot add \mathbb{N}/2 to them and expect that to be a bijection
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06:14:05 <oklopol> actually i can expect it to be any kind of jection i want
06:14:11 <oklopol> you just need some math skillz
06:14:23 * oerjan swats oklopol -----###
06:14:40 <zzo38> You do not give someone your password (or secrets) on *any* IRC channel, logged or not!
06:14:43 <Sgeo> Have I ever been swatted?
06:14:53 <zzo38> SIRCL is simply one kind of log format for IRC.
06:15:59 <Sgeo> You mean I shouldn't tell you that when I was younger
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06:16:47 <oerjan> pikhq: that license on that python file looks about as bad as zzo38's attempts, here...
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06:17:15 <pikhq> oerjan: ... What the fuck did I do.
06:17:27 <pikhq> oerjan: I hereby relicense it under the first license in the file.
06:17:37 <pikhq> oerjan: Which is... 3-clause BSD.
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06:18:01 <Sgeo> poiuy_qwert can't be here without me obviously.
06:18:35 <oerjan> pikhq: hm that's compatible with gpl, isn't it? so perhaps that's somehow consistent anyhow
06:18:47 <pikhq> oerjan: It's consistent, yes.
06:18:54 <pikhq> oerjan: But weird.
06:19:43 <zzo38> Do you have any opinion about the file I posted, other than the licensing?
06:20:39 <oerjan> well i'm just putting the sprunge.us links on the wiki for now.
06:23:13 <Sgeo> What's wrong with sprunge.us ?
06:23:32 <pikhq> We're not sure if they're permalinks.
06:24:15 <zzo38> In my opinion, it is OK to use it, but they should be replaced as soon as possible and reasonable to do so.
06:28:08 <Sgeo> Is sprunge.us a zzo38 invention?
06:28:11 <Sgeo> It looks awesome
06:29:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: No, it's just awesome.
06:30:39 <Sgeo> I should probably install cygwin at some poin
06:33:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: I did not invent it but I do like it
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07:03:24 <pikhq> Why, your Norwegianness is showing.
07:03:50 <pikhq> (though that sounds like it could be quite good.)
07:04:51 <oerjan> it's considered christmas food here
07:05:42 <oerjan> of course that might not be considered a convincing argument by most foreigners (see: lutefisk)
07:06:37 <pikhq> Less horrifying than rotten shark, though.
07:07:19 <pikhq> Iceland frightens me.
07:07:37 <pikhq> ... Okay, so does Japan sometimes. Natto. *gag*
07:08:39 <oerjan> i think pickled herring is sort of sushi like, although i wouldn't know because i've never dared to try _real_ sushi
07:09:02 <pikhq> More like what sushi developed out of.
07:10:27 <oerjan> ...i guess you wouldn't want to eat raw untreated fish until your civilization had developed a certain degree of hygiene and refrigeration
07:11:12 <pikhq> Sushi was originally fermented fish (hence the name, "sushi", or "sour"). The fermentation time shortened as preperation techniques made the fermentation less necessary, and it eventually went away.
07:11:38 <pikhq> And rice is involved because it was fermented in rice.
07:11:46 <oerjan> what i've been eating is called "sursild" in norwegian, literally sour herring
07:12:16 <pikhq> Nowadays, the only remnant of that is that the rice has some vinegar in it.
07:12:20 <oerjan> except this is sour because it contains vinegar and stuff, not because it's spoiled in any way
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07:13:22 <oerjan> hm i guess that means the norwegian variant maybe fermented at one time too...
07:14:40 <pikhq> There's very few fermented foods that actually disturb me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natt%C5%8D This.
07:14:56 <oerjan> hm apparently pickling is considered a form of fermentation
07:15:15 <pikhq> Acetic acid is produced via fermentation during pickling.
07:16:37 <augur> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/blog/?p=434
07:18:04 <oerjan> hm it seems salting is also considered pickling.
07:18:33 <augur> pikhq: natto just looks nasty
07:18:49 <augur> like some sort of insect egg mass
07:20:18 <augur> its not even that its fermented
07:20:21 <augur> its just that its slimey
07:20:22 <oerjan> actually the norwegian sursild i think is usually produced by _first_ salting the herring and afterwards changing to a vinegar solution
07:20:25 <augur> thats the nasty part
07:20:40 <augur> fermented soybean /paste/
07:20:54 <augur> well thats different, thats just miso mix and it looks like bean mush
07:21:04 <oerjan> and the just salted herring (spekesild) may also be considered a delicacy on its own
07:22:45 <oerjan> and i read that natto is supposedly healthy and there is a form of vitamin (K something?) that only exists in it...
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07:23:56 <pikhq> oerjan: Doubtful. There's a lot of fermented soybean foods out there.
07:24:13 <pikhq> For instance, miso.
07:24:21 <oerjan> http://www.nattopharma.com/ actually norwegian company
07:24:43 <pikhq> You grind the soybeans and mix it with a few other things *before* fermenting to get miso.
07:24:49 <pikhq> And it makes a delicious broth.
07:25:09 <pikhq> Well, combined with dashi.
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07:34:34 <Gregor> pikhq: Is miso soup just miso and water?
07:34:46 <Gregor> Err, I mean just the broth :P
07:34:51 <Gregor> Obviously there are solids in there too :P
07:34:57 <pikhq> Gregor: It's miso and dashi.
07:35:08 <Gregor> Oh, you even said that. Huzzah!
07:35:26 <augur> "just miso and water" is kind of .. non-trivial
07:35:33 <augur> since miso is not "just" any one thing
07:35:56 <augur> thats like asking if ramen is "just" ramen powder, noodles, and water
07:36:03 <augur> or if cake is "just" cake batter thats been baked
07:36:32 <pikhq> Or if cake is "just" flour and water.
07:36:33 <Gregor> augur: Congratulations, you've declared that "just" shall never be used.
07:36:38 <pikhq> (what with the claim being wrong. :P)
07:36:55 <augur> it can be, but the issue is that its vacuous here
07:37:28 <pikhq> Though that *is* the recipe for hardtack.
07:37:30 <Gregor> augur: What with mud being /just/ a complex assortment of organic and inorganic molecules some of which are dissolved into and others of which are suspended in water.
07:38:11 <augur> sure, its just miso and water, but miso is everything in the soup that isnt water, basically. dashi is just a kelp-and-tuna broth
07:38:24 <augur> Gregor: thats my point tho, right
07:38:36 <augur> pikhq: wikipedia disagrees.
07:38:45 <pikhq> augur: There's more to typical miso soup than just the miso paste.
07:38:57 <augur> yeah, theres also dashi, ok.
07:39:10 <augur> but like i said, dashi is kelp and tuna broth
07:39:13 <Sgeo> Could you please fight over something CSey instead? At least I have some chance of comprehending
07:39:15 <augur> ok maybe you throw in so tofu too
07:39:20 <Sgeo> Even if not much
07:39:27 <augur> Sgeo: hey, i tried to bring up Reader monads
07:39:30 <pikhq> You can throw in a variety of ingredients.
07:39:32 <augur> dont blame me if it aint there
07:40:24 <pikhq> The miso paste is just the characteristic ingredient of miso soup. :)
07:41:00 <augur> miso and dashi are really all you need for miso soup
07:41:18 <Gregor> Y'know what people? Curry chicken is JUST chicken and curry powder. SUCK IT.
07:41:36 <pikhq> By that same notion water and flour are really all you need for bread.
07:41:48 <augur> pikhq: depends on the kind of bread.
07:41:57 <Gregor> augur: Depends on the kind of curry chicken :P
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07:42:18 <augur> Gregor: no, it doesnt. curry chicken needs at least some sort of liquid.
07:42:22 <Gregor> Maybe my curry chicken is just chicken patted down with curry powder.
07:42:36 <pikhq> Water and flour suffices for getting something that counts as bread, just like miso and dashi suffices for getting something that counts as miso soup.
07:42:42 <augur> Gregor: then thats not curry chicken.
07:42:47 <pikhq> augur: Curry chicken ≠ chicken curry.
07:43:00 <augur> yes, it does = chicken curry
07:43:06 <pikhq> augur: Curry chicken is chicken with a curry flavor, not a curry made with chicken.
07:43:13 <Gregor> augur: Also, if that's not curry chicken, then flour+water is definitely not bread.
07:43:21 <augur> i know because im a linguist!
07:43:42 <Gregor> "Stand back! I'm a LINGUIST!"
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07:43:53 <augur> Gregor: nope sorry. lots of breads are made from just flour and water
07:43:57 <pikhq> Linguistics has little to do with cuisine.
07:43:58 <augur> and this is recognized as being a kind of bread
07:44:03 <Gregor> My father is a linguist (in the has-a-linguistics-degree sense). The most important lesson he ever taught me is not to be a linguist.
07:44:09 <pikhq> augur: Uh, *just* flour and water?
07:44:15 <augur> but coating chicken with curry powder is not recognized by anyone except you as curry chicken
07:44:20 <pikhq> augur: The only such bread I know of is hardtack.
07:44:41 <pikhq> When you do that, you get insanely hard bread.
07:44:49 <augur> lots of unleavened bread is like this
07:44:51 <augur> usually you fry it.
07:45:07 <augur> indian bread is often just water and flour
07:45:30 <augur> thats not to say it doesnt get /better/ with some other stuff
07:45:59 <pikhq> Figured they'd have something to make it not so hard in there.
07:46:18 <augur> you gotta cook it right
07:46:18 <pikhq> Perhaps it's just more water in the mix, so they get a bit more steam leavening.
07:46:52 <augur> and the tandoori. exposing it to fire does different things that normal ovens
07:47:34 <augur> thus we've proven that linguistics DOES have something to do with cuisine
07:47:40 <pikhq> Anyways, I'm pretty sure that curry chicken is curry-adj. chicken-noun.
07:47:56 <pikhq> Because this is Not. Fucking. French.
07:48:06 <pikhq> (in spite of what fixed phrases would tell you)
07:48:16 <augur> its a noun-noun compound
07:48:35 <augur> but even so, that doesnt change anything
07:48:37 <pikhq> The ordering of which, I'm fairly certain, matters.
07:49:04 <augur> a Brown Cow is a rootbeer float made with chocolate icecream
07:49:08 <augur> its still adj-noun
07:49:14 <augur> non-compositionality, bitches
07:49:40 <pikhq> It's still parsing as chicken which is curry, not curry with chicken.
07:49:59 <augur> chicken that-is-curried means cooked in curry
07:50:10 <pikhq> ... That is, chicken with a curry flavor.
07:50:25 <augur> not the most people.
07:50:44 <augur> pikhq: where are you again?
07:50:51 * Gregor continues to read but not participate in this conversation while munching on curry potato chips.
07:51:05 <pikhq> Gregor: Which are clearly not curry made with potato chips.
07:51:06 <augur> go to an indian restaurant with lots of white people
07:51:20 <Gregor> pikhq: That would be pretty gross!
07:51:21 <augur> ask them if curry chicken can be just chicken coated with curry then fried
07:51:27 <augur> bet you the answer will be no.
07:51:52 <Gregor> augur: That's conflating meaning with preferences.
07:52:10 <augur> "curry chicken" is simply non-compositional
07:52:14 <Gregor> augur: If you ask them that, they'll say no because it offends their sensibilities, not because it wouldn't be classified as "curry chicken"
07:52:16 <augur> it means the same thing as chicken curry
07:52:34 <augur> because you're asserting it.
07:52:41 <augur> you think you're right, show me.
07:52:42 <Gregor> I really couldn't care less what your opinion is, or really about this conversation at all *shrugs*
07:52:42 <oklopol> "<Gregor> My father is a linguist (in the has-a-linguistics-degree sense). The most important lesson he ever taught me is not to be a linguist." <<< same with my father and philosophy
07:53:04 <augur> your fathers are lame.
07:53:09 <augur> Gregor, your dads a linguist, huh
07:53:41 <Gregor> "in the has-a-linguistics-degree sense"
07:53:41 <Sgeo> C++/CLI has a USE?
07:53:52 <Gregor> His masters in linguistics does little good to his accounting job.
07:54:01 <augur> so hes not a linguist
07:54:05 <Sgeo> On Reddit, people are talking about tying together managed and unmanaged code
07:54:06 <augur> hes an accountant who couldnt hack linguistics
07:54:08 <Gregor> Hence the parenthetical.
07:54:12 <Sgeo> I. want. to. die.
07:54:16 <Gregor> He has a degree, he hacked it that much.
07:54:22 <Gregor> He couldn't hack a job in it :P
07:55:19 <Gregor> AFAIK he got a linguistics degree because linguistics interested him but with no real ambition, then he went "wait I don't actually want to be a professor" and (after getting a masters in a field he couldn't use) became an accountant.
07:55:36 <augur> right, but what did he do when he was getting his degree
07:55:45 <Gregor> I have no idea, you'd have to ask him *shrugs*
07:55:57 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/eco8t/when_programming_ccli_this_is_all_that_keeps_me/c174b92
07:56:52 * oerjan euthanizes Sgeo with the saucepan ===\__/
07:56:55 <oklopol> he thought being an accountant would be more fun than being a professor?
07:57:20 <Gregor> oklopol: Again, you'd have to ask him :P
07:57:45 <oklopol> i'll just assume he is insane
07:58:05 <oklopol> no other explanation exists
07:58:12 <Gregor> But it fits well with my backstory if I ever want to be a Jewish comedian.
07:59:01 <Gregor> I'm part-Ashkenazi, and nobody cares whether you're religiously Jewish for you to be a Jewish comedian anyway :P
07:59:20 <augur> is it possible to both be religiously Jewish and a Jewish comedian?
07:59:25 <oklopol> i thought jews are like the OPPOSITE of nazis
07:59:27 <Gregor> All I have to do is stand in profile (and maybe hide my hyper-anglo hair) and anybody will be convinced I'm Jewish :P
07:59:33 <augur> i thought ardent atheism was a prerequisite for being a jewish comedian
07:59:39 <Gregor> augur: Mmmmm ... yeah, I think so.
07:59:46 <augur> Gregor: PROFILE PICS NAO
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08:00:12 <Gregor> I don't think I have one, but I think I have a picture sufficiently revealing of the relevant characteristic.
08:00:13 <oklopol> or is that like a pun, ask-a-nazi
08:00:21 <Gregor> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30473177&l=32c78c515d&id=1055580469
08:00:26 <oklopol> maybe you can use that in your act
08:00:30 <Gregor> oklopol: Ashkenazi is a race.
08:00:47 <Gregor> This is why people just say they're Jewish :P
08:01:03 <augur> nah, you could be german-hungarian too
08:01:17 <augur> you look a bit like one of my relatives who's german-hungarian
08:01:44 <pikhq> augur: Most Ashkenazis would have such traits...
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08:01:53 <augur> pikhq: wouldnt doubt it.
08:02:15 <pikhq> What with spreading from Germany to Eastern Europe.
08:02:19 <pikhq> Including Hungary.
08:02:26 <Gregor> Yeah, I was about to say that German-Hungarian could very well be Ashkenazi :P
08:02:56 <oklopol> Gregor: you don't really resemble anything i've ever seen, ever
08:03:10 <Gregor> Anywho, it's all very silly, really I wouldn't care one lick about racial heritage except that the Jewish side of my family does X-D
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08:03:54 <pikhq> oklopol: Ashkenazi
08:04:40 <oklopol> i've been to britland, but i don't know where ashkenazistan is
08:04:56 <pikhq> They moved it to Israel.
08:05:04 <Gregor> I'm actually of surprisingly few heritages for a person whose family on both sides has been in the US for more than a century.
08:05:14 <oklopol> i don't really believe you can say anything about a person's race just from looking at their face
08:05:43 <Gregor> oklopol: "I suspect by the color of that person's skin that they're of a European or Slavic race."
08:05:59 <Gregor> Races are defined by physical characteristic, deal with it *shrugs*
08:06:00 <pikhq> And I'm of surprisingly specifically-general heritage set.
08:06:02 <oklopol> because it's very hard to ignore
08:06:06 <pikhq> Just about every Germanic heritage.]
08:06:24 <oklopol> ...which i still don't believe proves anything
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08:08:00 <oklopol> "<Gregor> Races are defined by physical characteristic, deal with it *shrugs*" <<< i just don't believe humans have the ability to infer things from these characteristics, because i'm not good at it myself
08:08:23 <oklopol> if i'm not good at it, the world should stop talking about it
08:08:30 <Gregor> Some people are, otherwise you just get stereotypes that happen to be true sometimes :P
08:08:42 <pikhq> And this is why the world should stop talking about physical activities.
08:09:04 <Gregor> We should transcend beyond these physical shackles of bodies and exist as beings of pure energy.
08:09:08 <oklopol> well i'm not particularly bad at those i guess, but they are rather uninteresting
08:09:37 <oklopol> when's the first mass suicide meeting of #esoteric
08:11:13 <Gregor> The rest of us are IRCing from the Next Level.
08:11:43 <oerjan> and somewhere, a bunch of pure energy beings are saying, "fuck this boring mental enlightenment stuff, let's make ourselves some bodies!"
08:12:40 <Gregor> "Hey, you, other energy being in this endless void ... wanna fuck?" "I can't. I have no body." "... shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit."
08:13:14 <oklopol> can't you like mindfuck each other
08:13:35 <oklopol> also you could look at humans have sex and mentalbate
08:13:56 <Gregor> Sorta not the same though, innit X-P
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08:24:01 <Sgeo> Why am I a pope?
08:27:52 <oerjan> how should i know, Mr. Ratzinger?
08:33:29 <augur> Sgeo: because some cardinals got together in a room and voted.
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09:00:48 <Sgeo> That was the most useless Windows Update...
09:01:09 <Sgeo> Malware Removal thingy (not that useless I guess) and Live updates
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09:32:31 <oklopol> i can't really see outside
09:32:47 <oklopol> wait actually i can see that there's snow even through the curtains
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09:43:52 <augur> oklopol: http://www.wellnowwhat.net/blog/?p=434
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10:01:30 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, oerjan, ah, but you both live in the frigid northlands.
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10:02:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Meanwhile I live in Edinburgh, which has the most boring climate in Britain.
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10:04:05 <oerjan> CLEARLY THE WEATHER TOOK YOUR COMMENT AS A CHALLENGE
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10:04:20 <oerjan> EXPECT YOUR ROOF TO CAVE IN SOON
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10:09:33 <oerjan> there it is again, that strange desire to quote shakespeare
10:19:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, very cold?
10:19:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, turn on the radiators then?
10:19:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, any fireplace?
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11:16:54 <Phantom_Hoover> The standard Minecraft textures for glass are terrible and I want better ones!
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11:33:53 <oklopol> are they too decadent and capitalist
11:35:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a stand in what sense?
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11:36:09 <oerjan> a concession stand, obviously
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12:13:47 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, no, they have some pixels stuck in the middle that completely ruins the view.
12:14:12 <oklopol> you'd like it to be invisible?
12:15:35 <Phantom_Hoover> The current texture is particularly jarring as I have a room with 3 walls and the floor made entirely of glass, and it just looks messy by default.
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12:20:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: That Painterly texpack has quite a few glass alternatives: http://painterlypack.net/materials.html
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12:52:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm going to assume that Fine Structure either isn't finished or that it ends rather abruptly.
13:03:49 <oerjan> putty apparently allows choosing only _one_ font name globally, which means it is impossible to support even all the characters i _do_ have some font for
13:05:04 <oerjan> hangul, chinese and japanese seem to only be available in separate fonts, say
13:05:36 <oerjan> *support simultaneously
13:06:20 <oerjan> well i guess it might be a mess to support when it wants characters to be the same fixed size, anyway
13:07:08 <oerjan> oh and that kannada thing from yesterday i have no monospace font for, so putty cannot show it at all.
13:25:41 * Phantom_Hoover tries to work out what the hell was going on in the last chapter.
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14:46:17 <elliott> 22:05:32 <oerjan> is sprunge.us suitable for linking to from the wiki?
14:46:22 <elliott> 22:05:54 <pikhq> oerjan: Pretty sure they recycle pastes.
14:47:30 <elliott> 22:12:08 <zzo38> However, CthulhuIRCd logs exactly what is sent to every client on the channel, with a timestamp. (Hence the rule in SIRCL requiring line-endings to be CRLF even on UNIX)
14:47:36 <elliott> 22:12:37 <zzo38> It is the requirement of SIRCL that the logs are logged in that way.
14:47:37 <elliott> 22:12:58 <Sgeo> Remind me not to give you my password in SIRCL
14:48:10 <elliott> 22:15:59 <Sgeo> You mean I shouldn't tell you that when I was younger
14:48:11 <elliott> 22:16:01 --- quit: Sgeo (Quit: Leaving)
14:49:12 <elliott> 23:05:42 <oerjan> of course that might not be considered a convincing argument by most foreigners (see: lutefisk)
14:49:16 <elliott> oerjan: don't say that word!
14:49:57 <oerjan> lutefisk lutefisk lutefisk
14:50:50 <elliott> oerjan: you horrible person
14:53:04 * oerjan _likes_ lutefisk (http://www.airshipentertainment.com/mythcomic.php?date=20100928)
14:53:48 <elliott> haha, i was about to chastise cpressey for linking directly to his homepage on his userpage without using the template, but he DID use the template
14:54:51 <elliott> oerjan: no you don't, you've just gone into shock every time you've eaten it
14:54:59 <elliott> and your body has made you think you like it as a self-defence mechanism
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14:58:32 * oerjan recommends reading the menu in that comic
14:59:06 <elliott> oh wait didn't notice pikhq was online
15:02:36 <elliott> oerjan: it would be very easy to implement slashes in a language like slashes but with regexps :D
15:07:09 <elliott> "My son (5) tried to pinch-zoom a photo on my wife's laptop. She explained scrollbars and + and - buttons. He left." --seen randomly on twitter
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15:30:55 * elliott designs the only font less than a pixel wide!
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15:31:36 <oerjan> this font would be the standard output format for Turkey Bomb, i assume
15:33:13 <elliott> oerjan: (it's actually 2 wide by 3 high, it's just that you can pack 3 subpixels (uglily) into one pixel on an LCD)
15:33:29 <elliott> oerjan: so each character takes up 2/3 of a pixel... of course you'll want at least one bit of space, so a character+space takes up 3 pixel
15:33:43 <elliott> oerjan: if you want 2 spaces, that's even more fun because the alignment of the pixels changes each character
15:33:59 <elliott> see http://distractionware.com/blog/?p=193 :P
15:34:08 <elliott> but that's 3-wide and 5-high
15:34:15 <elliott> (when expanded from subpixels to pixels)
15:34:37 * Phantom_Hoover realises suddenly that he didn't read most of "Last Ergs" and hence was utterly confused for the last chapter.
15:35:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ha ha! (No spoilers I haven't read nearly that far.)
15:36:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Now you get to read http://qntm.org/ed.
15:36:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, it's not as if I could have clicked accidentally or anything, or skipped over it, and I read the first subsection.
15:37:21 * oerjan swats elliott for rickrolling him -----###
15:37:31 <oerjan> just for the principle of it
15:38:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You were abducted during that time.
15:40:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just don't.
15:40:33 <elliott> I really want to enjoy what I have left to read of it.
15:41:45 <elliott> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11837939
15:41:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I reached the end of The Story So Far. My reading has taken... a hiatus.
15:43:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In this case it's not *overly* insane since it'd only apply to social networky things. But yes, the claim should be denied.
15:43:41 <elliott> Trademark law is the sanest and probably the only justifiable such law. :p
15:44:16 <coppro> elliott: patent law makes 100% sense in some sectors
15:44:25 <coppro> it's overstepped its bounds though
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15:45:42 <elliott> coppro: you know we disagree, so why bother presenting your opposing opinion, which i already know, as fact?
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15:45:57 <coppro> elliott: because the economic analysis
15:46:29 <elliott> coppro: also note that i said "probably" the only, not "the only".
15:46:47 <elliott> and you know fine well simply saying "No, you're wrong, [my opinion again]!" won't do a single thing, so why take the effort?
15:47:37 <coppro> because I know more about microeconomics now
15:50:23 <elliott> coppro: but you're still not presenting me with anything new and it's moer irritating than anything else
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15:51:37 <coppro> I also just enjoy pissing you off
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15:59:27 <elliott> coppro: ah, the good old hate-hate relationship
16:03:03 <ais523> hmm, the adverts for Windows Phone 7 are actually really good
16:03:14 <ais523> it doesn't really tempt me to want to buy a smartphone, though, especially not one running Microsoft software
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16:03:48 <ais523> hmm, anyone here who uses Windows? What should I do on a system whose anti-virus software needs upgrading, but where Firefox seems incapable of downloading executables from the Internet?
16:04:11 <ais523> (as in, first try with any file, it aborts, second try, the progress bar goes up to 100% and it reports the download as having worked, but the file isn't saved anywhere?)
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16:12:39 <elliott> <ais523> hmm, the adverts for Windows Phone 7 are actually really good
16:12:56 <elliott> the one i saw was social networking-oriented, and I doubt *that* is your thing
16:13:04 <elliott> <ais523> hmm, anyone here who uses Windows? What should I do on a system whose anti-virus software needs upgrading, but where Firefox seems incapable of downloading executables from the Internet?
16:14:00 <ais523> carefully aiming IE only at sites knowng to be correct
16:14:15 <elliott> ais523: you do realise that modern IE isn't really insecure?
16:14:32 <elliott> ais523: you'd have to try fairly hard to get infected with it, especially if you have any antivirus (even an old one)
16:14:49 <ais523> yep, it's just that it's hard enough to teach people "never use IE"
16:14:56 <elliott> ais523: what AV is it, anyway?
16:14:57 <ais523> I'm more concerned about why Firefox is failing to download executables
16:15:05 <ais523> and AVG, up-to-date virus database, but not engine
16:15:13 <ais523> and the engine's almost going to not get new databases, it's so old
16:15:27 <ais523> I'm entirely willing to install a different one, though, given how annoying AVG's been getting
16:15:49 <elliott> ais523: I've heard good things about avast!, but I seem to recall its sound-effects when it finds a virus are pretty scary :)
16:16:06 <elliott> ais523: NOD32 is the best antivirus by far but it's only a trial and after that you either have to infringe on copyright or pay, so yeah.
16:16:36 <elliott> ais523: oh, there's also been a lot of good things said about http://www.cloudantivirus.com/en/ and it may well be good apart from cashing in on the "cloud" terminology
16:16:45 <elliott> apparently it's very out-of-the-way
16:17:05 * elliott watches their video, gets rapidly irritated
16:17:19 <ais523> I was wondering about just MSE, on the basis that it's less irritating than many of the others
16:17:26 <ais523> do you know of a strong reason not to use it?
16:17:55 <elliott> ais523: when I last used MSE it wasn't being hyped up yet, just sort of a first release
16:17:59 <elliott> it's probably decent enough, yes
16:18:18 <elliott> ais523: why are you using windows, btw?
16:18:20 <ais523> it's never really been hyped up, but I can't find people with bad things to say about it, which is very out-of-character for Microsoft software
16:18:25 <ais523> and I'm not, this is someone else's computer
16:19:02 <ais523> and they're panicking due to the virus database updates going to stop soon, and no obvious way to update the AV
16:20:02 <elliott> ok, panda cloud antivirus's advert tries to describe how it works; obviously simplified, but the simplified version is, at least, *really* stupid
16:20:16 <elliott> ("it learns about viruses from your web browsing in the GLOBAL INTERNET COMMUNITY! no need for a virus lab!")
16:21:57 <elliott> ais523: ok, round about now you have to stop me doing what i'm doing
16:25:14 <elliott> oerjan: i should never have entered this rabbit hole
16:26:26 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, is AVG the one noted for confusing the Windows system files for viruses?
16:28:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: dunno; it's noted for being so mediocre it's bad in my book
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16:30:57 <elliott> hmm, seems like there might actually be decent experimental evidence for precognition; oh joy, look at that worldview go
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16:32:08 <oerjan> um is that about those recent Bem experiments (which i thought were pretty swiftly discredited)
16:33:45 <oerjan> basically Bem doesn't seem to understand/care that you have to form the hypothesis to test _before_ doing the actual experiment to test it
16:34:04 <elliott> oerjan: ah, it is; the article is too old to mention that it was discredited
16:34:49 <elliott> oerjan: I still think retropsychokinesis is pretty likely (although probably not p>=0.5) due to the results of http://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/
16:36:00 * elliott checks the updates to see if he did find it to be statistically significant after all
16:37:15 <elliott> "For example, a recent article by James Spottiswoode in the Journal of Scientific Exploration suggests that anomalous cognition events occur with an enhanced probability at times close to 13:30 hours Local Sidereal Time."
16:37:53 <oerjan> i saw that mentioned in the recent reddit threads about Bem's experiment
16:38:35 <elliott> oerjan: that quote, or the retropsychokinesis project?
16:38:57 <oerjan> the sidereal time connection
16:38:59 <elliott> i don't really believe at all in non-retropsychokinetic precognition, since it's really that causality doesn't seem so solid to me :)
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16:45:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no, the results of the project in total
16:46:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: see the link
16:47:24 <elliott> fourmilab is an awesome site btw, john walker of autocad fame
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16:54:50 <elliott> Vorpal: you were right, ElliottOS just got redesigned
16:55:33 <Vorpal> elliott, redesigned how? (just major points, I don't have time for half an hour of discussion)
16:55:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: guess what just became even further away from completion? :P
16:56:03 <elliott> Vorpal: well, really it was more like I was holding two separate design paths for an OS in my head, and I'd selected a Lispy, impure one as ElliottOS because the other one sounded like A Scary Pain.
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16:56:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Now I'm reading the Synthesis paper, thought "hmm, yeah, specialisation could actually work", read up on the Futamura projections, read up on lazy specialisation, and then read (I've seen it before, but re-read) how lazy specialisation lets you implement pure Functional Reactive Programming without the infamous space leak
16:57:02 <elliott> and now suddenly the OS is purely functional, specialiser-based, and sits on FRP.
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16:58:45 <elliott> Vorpal: The Holy Grail. The IO monad, although it sits in a pure language, is impure; it has effects, and state; IO operations are not composable units obeying mathematical laws like pure, denotational functions are.
16:59:13 <elliott> Vorpal: Functional reactive programming drags the rest of the universe into the opalescent pool of purity.
16:59:19 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_reactive_programming
16:59:33 <elliott> Vorpal: It's pretty similar to event-based systems, except easier to use, and purely functional.
16:59:34 <Vorpal> sounds impressive. *bookmarks for future reading*
16:59:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, the reading is mostly papers, and a lot of them have ideas that their authors now consider seriously out of date :-)
17:00:02 <elliott> Vorpal: http://conal.net/blog/ and http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/ are worth reading for "the latest thing", most likely.
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17:02:20 <elliott> Vorpal: basically "there are implementations of FRP that work, but they're not *general* to all uses of FRP; general implementations tend to have serious problems like space leaks. It is not clear why it is easy to implement one use of FRP, but difficult to implement it in general." -- so obviously the reading material is a bit tangled
17:02:51 <elliott> Vorpal: sort of like physics; there are plenty of theories that work in their domain -- quantum mechanics, relativity -- but for some reason it's very hard to make something that puts it all together
17:03:23 <elliott> Vorpal: but, guess what, lazy specialisation seems to actually solve the problem and allow a very simple, general FRP implementation without space leaks. :) Of course, the problem is implementing the lazy specialiser.
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17:03:54 <elliott> the last section of http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/emphasizing-specialization/ shows specialisation making FRP work
17:04:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I really don't have time to read lot of stuff atm
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17:05:44 <elliott> Oh, and http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/emphasizing-specialization/#comment-863 is especially interesting; augustss doing specialisation for work in Actual Practice, specialising to LLVM
17:06:22 <elliott> Of course a useful specialiser-based system requires runtime code generation, and it just so happens that it all neatly fits together if you do it as an OS :)
17:10:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Says Mr. Lisp86.
17:10:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Complicated.
17:11:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A specialiser is a piece of code in language A that takes a function written in language B, and a value written in language B, and outputs a program in language C that acts like the function written in language B, except with one less argument.
17:11:33 <elliott> You could say that it compiles (f x), but in fact it *rewrites* f's code so that all mentions of x are eliminated, replaced with the argument, and then the resulting program is simplified and optimised.
17:11:39 <elliott> Lazy specialisation is that, except lazy.
17:11:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: This is a lovely, accessible introduction to specialisers, and why they're so awesome: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/05/three-projections-of-doctor-futamura.html
17:12:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Read it. Read it now. :p
17:12:18 <elliott> Of course you can set A=B=C if you want and all that.
17:12:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You and everyone else.
17:14:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and all of this is proof that the esoteric will inherit the earth; if you squint a bit, running specialisers on themselves is an awful lot like writing a quine.
17:15:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Those fools in the practical computing world laughed at us! But we shall show them all!
17:16:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes! Now keep reading.
17:20:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No! Keep reading! YOU MUST
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17:21:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And now *lazy* specialisation: http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/emphasizing-specialization/
17:22:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: By the way, PyPy, the Python implementation in Python, strays very close to specialisation; they automatically generate their JIT from their interpreter.
17:22:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In fact, they have code that transforms any interpreter written in their restricted variant of Python, RPython, into a JIT, IIRC.
17:22:58 <elliott> And the JITs perform well.
17:23:12 <elliott> [[The interpreter implements the full Python language in a restricted subset, called RPython (Restricted Python). Unlike standard Python, RPython is statically typed, to allow efficient compilation.[2]
17:23:13 <elliott> The translator is a tool chain that analyzes RPython code and translates it to a lower-level language, such as C, Java bytecode or Common Intermediate Language. It also allows for pluggable Garbage collectors as well as optionally enabling Stackless. Finally it includes a JIT generator which builds a just-in-time compiler into the interpreter, given a few annotations in the interpreter source code. The generated JIT compiler is a tracing JIT[3].]]
17:23:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ? See above.
17:23:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So, basically, the PyPy people decided not to bother writing a fast Python compiler of any sort.
17:24:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They just decided to define a restricted variant of Python, RPython, write a translator from RPython to (various low-level languages), and then write a translator from a lightly-annotated interpreter of a language written in RPython, to a JIT compiler for that language.
17:24:51 <elliott> And then they implemented a Python interpreter in RPython, and applied the JIT-maker to it.
17:24:59 <elliott> Very, very close to specialisation.
17:25:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, read http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/emphasizing-specialization/ and you'll NEVER WRITE A COMPILER AGAIN EVER even if you never have.
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17:28:49 <Goosey> Oh well, I'm trying to devise an insane esolang.
17:28:57 <Goosey> something based off of brainfuck
17:29:14 <Goosey> maybe each element is actually a stack :P
17:29:19 <Goosey> but I want it to be useful
17:29:28 <Goosey> without making it easier
17:29:39 <elliott> Goosey: Protip: "brainfuck derivative" and "useful", as two goals, produce 99% of the stuff on the wiki.
17:29:45 <elliott> The wiki is a ... deluge of mostly uninteresting languages.
17:29:51 <elliott> I suggest relaxing one of the goals :P
17:30:06 <Goosey> Thought that might be the case :P
17:30:32 <elliott> Goosey: I suggest relaxing the "useful" goal, who needs that :)
17:31:46 <Goosey> I want to make the pointers be able to move based on what's in the current element
17:31:55 <Goosey> phantom, they already have that :/
17:32:14 <elliott> he probably means mathematica
17:32:44 <Phantom_Hoover> It would have the GUT embedded in it, and stuff would be interpreted by operating on that within a wider context.
17:33:01 <Goosey> It's not as extended as I guess you want :/
17:33:11 <elliott> Goosey: what were you thinking of, though?
17:33:41 <elliott> Seems to be field-theory oriented.
17:33:50 <Goosey> I guess you odnt want scilab then xD
17:34:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Field theory is proper mathematics. Look at all of the Greek letters!
17:34:31 <Goosey> Also I have this mathomatic thing
17:34:38 <Goosey> calculates polynomials and other stuff
17:34:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/pj.html, http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/GT.html
17:34:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: most of the proofs in the former are generated with Maple programs, the entire latter book was generated with a Maple program searching for geometric proofs (source is available)
17:34:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Fun fact: the ratio of Latin to other symbols determines how proper a given piece of mathematics is.
17:34:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: not quite what you want, but COOL.
17:36:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but don't let that bother you; those two pages are really awesome.
17:36:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Shalosh B. Ekhad" is what he calls the author of his program-written stuff.
17:37:32 <Phantom_Hoover> It can't on some levels, since it hates general recursion.
17:37:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it can.
17:37:59 <elliott> I am not sure what you think general recursion has to do with it.
17:38:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A model of ZFC comes with Coq.
17:38:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://coq.inria.fr/V8.2pl1/contribs/ZFC.html
17:38:31 <Phantom_Hoover> It was a munged thought squeezed through my brain into unrecognisability.
17:39:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Axioms is probably a good place.
17:39:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just click a random file, then click on its includes until you get to a file without includes.
17:39:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In this case, that's http://coq.inria.fr/V8.2pl1/contribs/ZFC.Sets.html.
17:41:29 <elliott> Theorem tout_vide_est_Vide :
17:41:48 <Phantom_Hoover> As well as the weirdness of seeing normal functions defined using it
17:45:30 * Phantom_Hoover decides to reduce his confusion with ProofGeneral steppery.
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18:00:45 <zzo38> Do you have any question/opinion about that manual page? Or, what is it?
18:01:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I've invented a vaguely horrible thing.
18:01:46 <zzo38> elliott: What did you invent?
18:01:51 <zzo38> And how vague is it?
18:02:05 <elliott> zzo38: Meansort and mediansort, and it's not vague at all, just vaguely horrible.
18:02:28 <zzo38> That is what I meant, how vague is it horrible?
18:02:37 <zzo38> And can you show what you have?
18:04:08 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/fJJC Replace the calls with mean with calls to median to get another kind of sort.
18:04:13 <elliott> mediansort is probably faster.
18:04:17 <elliott> In fact it is, objectively.
18:05:30 <elliott> ha! it doesn't sort properly
18:05:31 <Deewiant> Median doesn't compute the median
18:05:58 <elliott> Deewiant: in fact median is completely unworkable in this case since it requires sorting the list to do it simply :D
18:06:07 <elliott> ok let's pretend median isn't there
18:06:27 <elliott> 65150, 87, 6319, 15206, 26202, 52131, 17404, 59691, 54273, 61926, 63389, 3098, 6615, 25222, 60300, 1027, 26110, 33019, 51582, 62569, 13940, 24634, 51787, 54117, 55077,
18:06:34 <elliott> return msort(a) + msort(b)
18:06:56 <elliott> recursing msort() around that breaks python's recursion limit :)
18:07:17 <elliott> ok raising that limit is not a good idea
18:07:37 <zzo38> It does not seem the best kind of sorting algorithm, there are a few problems with its ways.
18:07:46 <elliott> Deewiant: C implementations welcome :p
18:08:28 <Deewiant> Are those the only two options?
18:08:33 <zzo38> Yes, I think in C it could be done better, but it is still unsure if it is better than anything else and if so in what ways, what data?
18:08:41 <elliott> Deewiant: no, you can do it in haskell too.
18:09:07 <elliott> wait i had an infinite loop
18:09:13 <zzo38> Like, you can make the C program to calculate the mean while partitioning.
18:09:17 <elliott> i think i give up on this thing :)
18:09:29 <zzo38> (Or just the sum; the mean is not needed.)
18:11:11 <zzo38> But the code looks like it will work badly if the length of the list is not a power of two.
18:12:58 <zzo38> But I cannot know for sure.
18:19:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I just remembered that you asked me to remind you of something
18:20:03 <Vorpal> (been too busy to remember it before)
18:20:27 <Vorpal> elliott, "mine from torch marked cave" iirc
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18:29:20 <zzo38> I removed the license exception now, and made a few other changes. http://sprunge.us/fHTJ
18:30:48 <zzo38> I would also like you to tell me if you think there is anything wrong with the ANSI emulation in the anstomzm.w program.
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18:36:34 <zzo38> Therefore, it must be a different timezone, I think!!
18:38:43 <elliott> but he is on a 25 hour day
18:39:52 <zzo38> Why is 25 hours? Does it have anything to do with daylight saving time?
18:40:19 <Deewiant> elliott: If you want a Haskell version of your non-working sort http://sprunge.us/ggef
18:40:43 <elliott> zzo38: No, it's oerjan's fucked up sleep schedule
18:40:59 <elliott> Deewiant: I think you win the Most Involved Way of Implementing a Broken Sort Algorithm of the Year.
18:41:34 <zzo38> elliott: And you can win the Broken Sort award, then?
18:42:15 <zzo38> Is the longest day of the year, when we have to switch off daylight saving time?
18:42:16 <elliott> Deewiant: Wasting vectors on that :P
18:42:57 <Deewiant> elliott: Too painful to see something like partition running on linked lists :-P
18:43:03 <zzo38> Now the real question is to figure out some actual purpose of this algorithm (or a variation), other than sorting!
18:43:25 <elliott> It's quite bad at that too.
18:45:24 <zzo38> It is bad at that, too!
18:54:04 <Goosey> What the hell is that..
18:54:44 <pikhq> Goosey: The floating point coprocessor on the x86.
18:54:51 <pikhq> Now integrated into the CPU.
18:55:25 <pikhq> The wikileaks leak is out.
18:57:05 <pikhq> Among other things, it reveals that the US embassies form a global espionage network.
18:57:58 <elliott> "Wow! Automated equational theorem proving for (a subset of) Haskell: http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ws506/tryzeno/ -- the future yet nearer
18:57:58 <Goosey> I think that is what embassies are usually for...
18:58:15 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ws506/tryzeno/ this this this
18:58:17 <pikhq> Goosey: No, they are *not meant for espionage on everybody and everything*.
18:58:55 <zzo38> pikhq: That has been my concern always, a bit.
18:59:39 <elliott> pikhq: prop_reverse_idem xs =
18:59:39 <elliott> reverse (reverse xs) === xs
18:59:41 <elliott> pikhq: And it just proves it.
19:01:59 <Goosey> pikhq: It's a conspiracy man, they are....
19:02:32 <elliott> Goosey: are you aware of the definition of "conspiracy"
19:02:35 <elliott> Goosey: quick -- who did 9/11?
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19:03:05 <Goosey> I'm fucking with you, I don't buy any of that bullshit. :/ Just so you know..
19:03:13 <pikhq> Goosey: It's not much of a crazy conspiracy theory if the evidence for it *is coming from leaks of internal communications*. ;)
19:03:25 <pikhq> Though it could quite possibly be an actual conspiracy. :P
19:03:28 <zzo38> No! Terrorists did 9/11 attack but after the attack, the government made up a secret conspiracy to do things about it that do not work, because it is a conspiracy for something else!
19:03:51 <pikhq> zzo38: They didn't keep it all that secret. They just convinced the public at large that it works.
19:03:53 <elliott> zzo38: now do you actually believe that
19:04:55 <Ilari> Those plans apparently existed before 9/11 happened, but 9/11 was convient excuse to take them into use... And I wouldn't rule out intentional fsckup (a'la Pearl Harbor)...
19:04:59 <zzo38> Well, it is partially because of stupid government agencies, but also because of conspiracy, too. Of course the things they try to do to stop terrorism, mostly is completely wrong and useless and does not even make sense.
19:06:27 <zzo38> My anstomzm program has a "jokes" entry in the index.
19:06:32 <elliott> "Mogensen gives a very elegant partial evaluator in pure lambda calculus, which optimize as expected with the Futamura projections (see Dan’s post). This partial evaluator works on higher order abstract syntax, taking and returning descriptions of terms rather than the terms themselves. Essentially all it is is (very simple) machinery describing how to evaluate under a lambda." links to http://tinyurl.com/cnyyph, behind paywall
19:07:40 <elliott> http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2009/05/04/lazy-partial-evaluation/ in general...
19:08:18 <elliott> "We are currently under a mass distributed denial of service attack." -- Wikileaks.
19:09:22 <elliott> pikhq: " fib = lub [\0 -> 0, \1 -> 1, \n -> assuming (n >= 2) $ fib (n-1) + fib (n-2) ] -- valid, reasonably efficient #haskell (using Data.Lub)"
19:09:28 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/lub/0.1.6/doc/html/Data-Lub.html
19:10:02 <pikhq> elliott: The leak from Wikileaks has gone out via various news organizations because of that DOS.
19:10:54 <Goosey> Anyways I couldnt get on it either :/
19:12:20 <zzo38> It is almost time for Hypernet -- no denial of service attacks, no need for unique addresses, and it works even if the government takes away your internet.
19:12:35 <elliott> "Here is a statement from Hillary Clinton, who ordered a secret intelligence campaign targeting the leadership of the UN, including the secretary general, Ban Ki-moon and the permanent security council representatives from China, Russia, France and the UK."
19:12:42 <elliott> zzo38: And what exactly is hypernet?
19:13:08 <pikhq> elliott: Gotta admit, the US has balls.
19:14:25 <zzo38> elliott: I have idea, and have think of it much, but do not know exactly. But it must use strong security, non-centralized, hash code, non-physical addressing, and transfer over any medium (including ham radio and barcodes, as well as internet).
19:14:26 <Goosey> No, the US is just being ran by idiots
19:14:46 <elliott> Goosey: they're not stupid, they're very competent... and they're not exactly evil, they really believe what they're doing is best.
19:14:49 <elliott> they're deluded and wrong.
19:15:14 <zzo38> I do not think the government even knows everything about itself.
19:15:40 <pikhq> Goosey: Their actions are certainly not that of idiots, *in general*.
19:15:58 <pikhq> But rather a bunch of people who believe that the fourth reich is a good idea.
19:16:22 <Goosey> Not really, the actions are good sometimes, but they are trying to reach a goal which is idiotic in itself..
19:16:40 <Goosey> I'm thinking of Obama specifically
19:16:55 <elliott> "As a hypothetical hacker who might enjoy wikileaks, I may consider the possibility that my attacks on wikileaks would be both obviously ineffective in stopping this release, and simultaneously increase the hype surrounding the release of the information, to its benefit."
19:17:18 <elliott> meh, this is boring, let's talk about computing
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19:17:43 <pikhq> Oh, Obama's not significantly different from most of the other Presidents we've had. It honestly feels like that job is about as relevant as student body president at a school.
19:18:18 <elliott> "Little Green Footballs blogged my Wikileaks tweets"
19:18:29 <elliott> Larry Sanger: because getting on Little Green Footballs is an achievement, not shameful.
19:19:04 <elliott> "El Pais, Le Monde, Speigel, Guardian & NYT will publish many US embassy cables tonight, even if WikiLeaks goes down"
19:19:06 <elliott> " @wikileaks unlikely: if legit news sources publish cables not avail. on Wikileaks, they become primary sources & risk repercussions"
19:19:10 <elliott> Larry Sanger: I know more than the newsappers!
19:19:16 <elliott> (Guardian tweeted that they would publish them specifically.)
19:19:52 <pikhq> It's Speigel's cover story for tomorrow.
19:20:17 <pikhq> Likely for the others as well.
19:20:28 <pikhq> And ♥ The Guardian.
19:20:29 <zzo38> Goosey: Do you know of MegaZeux? I even made some games on MegaZeux. Did you?
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19:25:04 <zzo38> Goosey: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/
19:25:15 <Goosey> What do you guys think of an implementation of brainfuck with a 3D array of stacks?
19:25:37 <zzo38> Goosey: Write something like that on the wiki, if you like to.
19:25:48 <Goosey> I don't have the compiler or anything yet
19:25:52 <pikhq> Well, it makes a large class of algorithms simpler while still being a tarpit.
19:26:11 <zzo38> Goosey: That is OK; just write the description on the wiki. Add the compiler later
19:26:24 <Goosey> I don't have an interpreter either, but alright..:P
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19:26:54 <pikhq> For instance, it makes arrays not a complete pain.
19:26:58 <zzo38> Goosey: That is OK; you can add the interpreter later. Just write the description at first, is OK.
19:27:06 <elliott> Goosey: Make it an infinite-D array of infinite-D arrays of infinite-D arrays ...
19:27:15 <zzo38> Many articles on the wiki are for unimplemented things (some of which are unimplementable!)
19:27:24 <elliott> Goosey: who said i'm joking
19:27:32 <Goosey> Let me create an account then :D
19:28:25 <zzo38> One idea I have, is if you have a variant of FlooP (described in Hofstadter's book) with the REDPROGRAM command built-in.
19:28:26 <Goosey> So shoudl I put it in list of ideas?
19:28:35 <pikhq> elliott: Now *that's* an interesting topological space.
19:28:45 <zzo38> How much more powerful does that make it?
19:28:57 <elliott> pikhq: the only kind of data is addresses
19:29:05 <elliott> which are, um, let's think
19:29:06 <zzo38> Goosey: In the list of ideas? It depends if the description is complete or not.
19:29:17 <elliott> pikhq: a fully-qualified address is an infinite list of an infinite list of naturals
19:29:27 <zzo38> If the description is fully proper, put in the language list and add the "Unimplemented" category. Otherwise, just put your ideas in the list of ideas.
19:29:35 <elliott> pikhq: a partially-qualified address (i.e. printing to a metainfiniteDarray) is a finite list of an infinite list of naturals
19:29:48 <elliott> pikhq: and that's the only kind of data you have, every object is indistinguishable, all you have is addresses
19:29:50 <elliott> pikhq: good luck computing anything
19:29:52 <elliott> pikhq: i guess you could like
19:29:54 <Ilari> Oh, then there are those languages that are implemenetable and implemented, but impossible to implement efficiently.
19:29:58 <elliott> move meta-infinite-D-arrays around
19:30:23 <elliott> means that virtual address Y resolves to real address X
19:30:25 <elliott> and that's all you have or something
19:30:46 <Goosey> I've never made a new page....how? xD
19:31:24 <zzo38> Goosey: Enter the name of the page in the URL and then edit
19:31:32 <zzo38> There are other ways, too.
19:32:29 <Ilari> (I have designed one such turing tarpit and even implemented it). I sure as heck wouldn't even want to try running "99 bottles" on it...
19:32:44 <zzo38> Anyone who has plaed MegaZeux before, try this game: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ASCMZXTO.ZIP
19:33:11 <Ilari> IIRC, hello world program took 15 seconds to run in the first interpretter version (I later optimized it down to 40 milliseconds).
19:34:00 <zzo38> And still about my other question? How much more powerful do you think it would make it if you make a variant of FlooP but with the REDPROGRAM command added? And what would happen if instead you made a variant of BlooP with the REDPROGRAM command, instead?
19:35:07 <zzo38> (Of course, REDPROGRAM is impossible to actually implement.)
19:35:57 <Ilari> Any reference about REDPROGRAM?
19:36:09 <Vorpal> ineiros_: your map image files are quite large. 5 second processing on my old computer cuts it by almost half. (advpng -z1)
19:36:25 <zzo38> Ilari: In Hofstadter's book. But I can tell you what it is, too.
19:39:25 <Ilari> Heh... If one instantiated the grammar class in that unimplementable-efficently esolang with unrestricted grammars (isntead complements of context-free grammars), the result would be super-turing (in fact, AH-Sigma-2)
19:40:10 <zzo38> O, so that is how you specify computational classes of super-turing! I did not know that, before.
19:40:53 <Ilari> Instatiation with complements of context-free grammars results in turing-complete langage.
19:43:25 <Ilari> Give turing machine halting oracle for AH-Sigma-n, and the result can decide all problems in AH-Delta_(n+1), Detect all yes answers for AH-Sigma_(n+1) and detect all no answers for AH-Pi_(n+1) (without oracle the corresponding classes are are AH-Delta_1 = R, AH-Sigma_1 = RE and AH-Pi_1 = co-RE).
19:43:28 <elliott> # Type-generic expressions using the _Generic keyword (#define cbrt(X) _Generic((X), long double: cbrtl, default: cbrt, float: cbrtf)(X))
19:43:33 <elliott> coming soon to a c1x near you
19:47:08 <Goosey> what do you call parts of a stack, elements?
19:47:54 <elliott> pikhq: Do you need another reason not to use GNU software?
19:47:59 <elliott> pikhq: 'Cause I've got one! http://sprunge.us/TPPe
19:48:27 <elliott> pikhq: (or, In Which Inexplicably Assholish IRC Moron Who I Try And Aid Turns Out To Be An Inetutils Developer)
19:48:30 <pikhq> Oh, you're talking to ams. *Fun*.
19:48:33 <elliott> <goibhniu1> elliott: since you're new .. ams has nothing to do with nix .. he just enjoys being rude to people here :/
19:48:48 <pikhq> He is best known as an asshole who should be banned from all the IRC channels.
19:49:19 <elliott> The GNU operating system! Brought to you by Drepper and ams!
19:49:37 <elliott> pikhq: this was in #nixos, which I somehow doubt he actually uses
19:49:54 <pikhq> He is such an asshole.
19:49:59 <pikhq> Not to mention a moron.
19:50:08 <elliott> never encountered him before. that fact is now plainly clear to me
19:50:26 <pikhq> He's one of the few guys who actively develops Hurd.
19:51:41 <elliott> pikhq: but nobody *needs* a reason not to use hurd :)
19:51:55 <elliott> pikhq: wanna help me tarpit a microkernel interface???!?!!
19:52:36 <elliott> pikhq: anyway good to know the maintainer of GNU's "ping" among other things doesn't even know shit about free() :)
19:53:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: stop stalkin' me.
19:54:12 <elliott> pikhq: http://sprunge.us/gXiR
19:54:18 <elliott> pikhq: Gogogo refine and address problems :P
19:54:34 <elliott> pikhq: A problem I didn't mention is that just about any page-based IPC solution has the problem of a malicious program borking the page / two processes writing to the page at once.
19:55:39 <ais523> hmm, TIL that Python has while-else and for-else loops
19:56:06 <ais523> also, I remember reading a comment on reddit, thinking "that seems exactly like ehird's opinion", then looking at who wrote it and seeing it was ehird
19:56:18 <ais523> about ESR and the Jargon File
19:56:24 <elliott> I'm surprised that one got upvoted at all
19:56:33 <ais523> you think your opinion on the matter is unpopular?
19:56:54 <ais523> also, I come into contact with far too many people who don't understand free() at the moment
19:56:56 <elliott> ais523: esr is rather popular, although admittedly he has been called out a lot more recently
19:57:02 <ais523> occupational hazard of teaching C
19:57:14 <ais523> the C students are doing so much worse than the Java students...
19:57:15 <elliott> ais523: are any of them gnu maintainers?
19:57:27 <elliott> Teaching someone C as a first language is just stupid.
19:57:36 <zzo38> Bad programming is done in any programming language.
19:57:43 <Ilari> Oh, and how did those students "replace" sizeof with size_t?
19:57:45 <ais523> elliott: they're masters' students, in theory they know other languages
19:57:46 <elliott> You don't see what the machine's doing, but you have to deal with what the machine's doing anyway; it can't really equip you for that at all.
19:57:54 <ais523> Ilari: because sizeof wasn't in NetBeans' autocomplete
19:57:56 <elliott> ais523: they're masters' students?!?!?!?!
19:58:00 <ais523> never mind that they'd been told not to use it
19:58:06 <elliott> ais523: i was thinking like clueless undergrads
19:58:16 <ais523> elliott: yep, which means that many of them are coming from other universities, and many not have a legitimate first degree
19:58:21 <pikhq> elliott: Remember: most "programmers" genuinely *suck*.
19:58:26 <ais523> Goosey: who cares, this is #esoteric
19:58:39 <pikhq> elliott: You are far above average simply because you grok C.
19:58:45 <Goosey> I can perform something like
19:58:52 <ais523> the people learning Java for the first time are first-year undergrads, and much better than the masters students
19:58:54 <elliott> pikhq: i'm not sure grokking c is a useful skill :)
19:59:08 <Goosey> and then whenever 0 shows up in the code, it's replaced
19:59:10 <ais523> hmm, that looks like an esolang all right
19:59:10 <elliott> pikhq: grocking assembly, yes; grocking haskell/lisp/whatever, yes; C? it's a bit of a hermaphrodite language
19:59:15 <ais523> and replaced with what?
19:59:18 <elliott> Goosey: what if you do +{++}?
19:59:22 <Goosey> what is contained in the brackets
19:59:23 <elliott> ais523: with the body of the {}, one assumes
19:59:31 <Goosey> only commands that aren't built in
19:59:39 <Goosey> characters that would otherwise be a comment
19:59:42 <ais523> elliott: understanding C means that you understand what the processor is actually doing at the asm level, generally speaking
20:00:04 <elliott> ais523: hmm... i'm not sure
20:00:08 <Ilari> I can't even imagine how one could replace sizeof in any manner (no matter how wrong) with size_t...
20:00:09 <Goosey> But I dont know, it seems to defeat the purpose of bf a little..
20:00:11 <ais523> not in actual asm statements
20:00:11 <elliott> ais523: anyone who says "C/C++" is clearly defying that
20:00:12 <pikhq> elliott: Understanding C means that you have a modicum of intelligence and understand the current lingua franca.
20:00:19 <elliott> ais523: because C++ is very far removed from the machine
20:00:24 <elliott> ais523: and a lot of people treat C like C++ without features
20:00:30 <ais523> elliott: my experience is that people mean two different things by C++
20:00:32 <elliott> pikhq: not sure c is the lingua franca, probably java is :P
20:00:42 <zzo38> I write a lot programming with C and using bitwise operations and other things in C, including Enhanced CWEB.
20:00:53 <elliott> ais523: "C with Classes" and "MetaFunctionalTransmogrifier (with pointers underneath but NEVER USE THEM)"?
20:00:57 <pikhq> elliott: I'm fairly certain the FFI for every language goes through C.
20:00:58 <ais523> one set of people are the ones who write std::auto_ptr<> everywhere, those are the people who understand C++ as C++, and it's a completely different language from C
20:01:05 <ais523> and the other set are those who use C++ just for the // comments
20:01:23 <zzo38> But modern C compilers can still use // comments even without C++ mode.
20:01:25 <elliott> ais523: they usually use classes too
20:01:26 <Goosey> Tell me, does it defeat the purpose of bf?
20:01:28 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, I understand C despite having resolved not to go into programming.
20:01:36 <zzo38> And Enhanced CWEB supports // style comments even if your C compiler does not.
20:01:39 <elliott> Goosey: everything defeats the point of bf, but it might not defeat the point of $your_language :)
20:01:42 <ais523> (seriously, I met someone with that opinion a while ago, although I think he may have been trolling; he was deliberately taking a Microsoft fanboy viewpoint, which is trollish in most places on Freenode)
20:01:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I hypothesise that this is the essential reason almost all programmers suck.
20:02:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Those who can actually program go into maths or proper CS.
20:02:07 <Goosey> I don't know, I want to keep it minimalistic, so for now, I'll leave it out.
20:02:38 <ais523> you won't likely beat BF at BF's purpose (most BF derivatives are awful command substitutions), but you can beat it at something else, and many langs do
20:02:38 <elliott> ais523: the viewpoint that C++ is useful for // comments? heh
20:02:39 <Ilari> There are lot of people who simply can't program in any language.
20:02:49 <elliott> ais523: also, there's one more group: Slava Pestovs, who use C++ because it has namespaces and nothing else
20:02:54 <ais523> elliott: when pressed, he said and the occasional class
20:02:56 <pikhq> Ilari: And a lot of those get paid to program.
20:02:58 <elliott> the only member of this group is Slava Pestov
20:02:58 <ais523> or words to that effect
20:03:10 <elliott> http://factor-language.blogspot.com/2009/05/factor-vm-ported-to-c.html
20:03:25 <ais523> oh, incidentally, double-free working forces programs to leak memory, there's no way to implement it otherwise
20:03:28 <zzo38> // comments is C++ feature, but usable in many C compilers (it is meaningless to put two / tokens together)
20:03:38 <ais523> zzo38: it's a C99 feature as well
20:03:48 <ais523> also, //**/ is legal C89
20:03:53 <elliott> <ais523> oh, incidentally, double-free working forces programs to leak memory, there's no way to implement it otherwise
20:03:53 <ais523> but people generally don't use it
20:03:58 <pikhq> elliott: There's also Oleg.
20:04:02 <elliott> erm, couldn't free(X) just fail silently if X is not allocated?
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20:04:23 <ais523> freeing NULL /is/ legal, by the way
20:04:30 <ais523> elliott: the issue is that something else might have been allocated in the meantime
20:04:32 <Ilari> And "fizzbuzz program" being interview question tells something... For any serious programmer, that task is fscking joke...
20:04:34 <zzo38> ais523: O, //**/ I forgot about that. But it is still not sensible?
20:04:46 <pikhq> elliott: It can also launch the missiles.
20:04:46 <ais523> then, your double free deallocates data elsewhere in your program
20:04:48 <zzo38> elliott: It also depnds a lot about how memory management is implemented?
20:05:14 <ais523> glibc will stackdump if it notices a double-free, which it will if the address wasn't reallocated meanwhile, and there's an environment variable to tell it to ignore and keep on running
20:05:18 <ais523> I hope nobody actually /uses/ it
20:05:33 <elliott> ais523: I used that backtrace to fix a bug in pcc!
20:05:36 <elliott> I should submit the patch sometime.
20:05:46 <zzo38> I think some C compilers (maybe GNU C? I am not sure) can turn off // comments if needed??
20:05:49 <ais523> zzo38: //**/ is indeed not particularly useful, that's why the C standard people decided they didn't care about breaking it
20:06:05 <ais523> gcc will turn off // comments if you ask for strict C89 mode, e.g. using -ansi or -std=c89
20:06:13 <Goosey> one feature I like, is that data incremented is not commited until it's actually pushed to the stack.
20:06:14 <elliott> ais523: It's a rather embarrassing mistake, but understandable for a program of 1970 vintage: http://sprunge.us/hhjR (this is a unified diff)
20:06:30 <elliott> ais523: This works with glibc but not with alternate libcs (well, you can tell dietlibc and uClibc to allow it, but you shouldn't really)
20:06:54 <elliott> ais523: I forget what helped exactly, but I definitely got a backtrace when it was free()'d later
20:06:57 <elliott> it might not have been glibc actually
20:07:04 <elliott> probably wasn't actually since I wasn't linking with glibc
20:07:09 <ais523> free was originally defined not to change the memory it freed, incidentally, so you could use the memory safely until your next malloc or free
20:07:24 <ais523> but not nowadays, as that screws up many plausible implementations, and fails in multithreaded programs
20:07:43 <ais523> e.g. DJGPP malloc stores metadata in a block immediately after freeing it
20:07:59 <zzo38> Enhanced CWEB will only put comments in the output program for section numbers (if it does so, the comments are /* */ style and on a line by itself), or if you use @=@> or @{send()@} while WEB will put comments in output program for section numbers and for @{@} (the @{@} in WEB is often used like #ifdef in C)
20:08:26 <ais523> elliott: incidentally, malloc(0) is allowed to return a pointer
20:08:41 <ais523> some libcs interpret it as malloc(8)
20:08:41 <Ilari> Ah yeah, investigating DJGPP allocator with purpose of seeing if one game is exploitable... :-)
20:08:43 <elliott> ais523: glibc does, but dietlibc and uClibc don't by default
20:08:47 <zzo38> (The other purpose of @{@} in WEB is for compiler directives; ordinary Pascal comments with {} are not copied to the output)
20:08:49 <elliott> ais523: see http://sprunge.us/hhjR for the fix to the bug this caused in pcc
20:08:50 <fizzie> I think I saw somewhere code that did "p = malloc(N); free(p); [messy code using p]" because "that makes it so much easier to avoid memory leaks".
20:08:56 <Goosey> this is the hello world program I came up with
20:08:58 <Goosey> '!'\'d'\'l'\'r'\'o'\'W'\' '\'o'\'l'\'l\'e'\'H'\ [./]
20:09:04 <ais523> fizzie: that's beautiful
20:09:21 <Goosey> letters can be created through regular incrementing though
20:09:30 <zzo38> fizzie: But that is a improper code!
20:09:55 <zzo38> Post any improper codes like this into The Daily WTF if you think they are of the kind of things can be posted there in the red category.
20:09:56 <elliott> zzo38: how do you pronounce improper?
20:10:01 <elliott> surely that should be "an improper"
20:10:09 <elliott> in fact, is improper even the right word there?
20:10:21 <ais523> hmm, now I'm trying to figure out if malloc(0) returning NULL should simultaneously set errno to ENOMEM or not
20:10:33 <pikhq> fizzie: Makes it so much easier to launch the missiles.
20:10:34 <ais523> EINVAL would make more sense, but is against the literal wording of the man page
20:10:50 <ais523> it's the sort of success that's worse than failure
20:10:59 <elliott> ais523: *that's what the fuck
20:11:14 <zzo38> ais523: And that is The Daily WTF, the Worse Than Failure.
20:11:16 <ais523> the sentence doesn't make any sense if you say "what the fuck" there
20:11:19 <elliott> ais523: (see wut i did thar see wut i did thar)
20:11:45 <ais523> also, I preferred the name worsethanfailure, if the program just /doesn't work/ it's no fun, it's when it does work and makes no sense that it's fun
20:12:15 <elliott> ais523: it's more the fact that it was an admitted deliberate bowlderisation, not an "honest" name change
20:12:28 <ais523> "wtf" is quite a bowlderisation in itself
20:12:35 <elliott> anyway the daily WTF is just terrible, putting it in the hands of a .NET Windows developer who runs ASP.NET software is ... yeah
20:12:44 <ais523> also, thedailywtf is really hard to mentally pronounce, worsethanfailure is much easier
20:13:06 <elliott> also all the submissions are the same boring stuff these days
20:13:30 <ais523> and Windows is a better place to find those things anyway, not because Windows is inherently prone to WTFs (it might be, but that isn't the real reason here), but because the sort of programmers who make them are more likely to be working on a Windows stack, or maybe typical mysql/PHP hosting
20:13:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Are we still discussing how 99% of people are incorrigible morons?
20:14:01 <ais523> apparently, the submissions are always edited into unrecognisability anyway nowadays; someone said they submitted something and didn't recognise the resulting story
20:14:11 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I think we came back to that topic via a different route
20:15:32 <zzo38> There is still comments and sidebar, though. And also old articles. But you can still read the new articles, too.
20:16:16 <zzo38> My complaint is that the sponsor appreciation are blue category, I think they should belong in a gray category since the articles work like those in the gray category in generally.
20:16:26 <ais523> zzo38: I loved your WebFlogScript example in the coding help subforum, btw
20:16:28 <elliott> the categories have names, you know
20:16:40 <ais523> I have to find it again, now
20:17:28 <elliott> [[ "Print or Fish" was originally published on 2005-11-22, and never seems to grow old... ]]
20:17:31 <elliott> it's five goddamn years old!
20:17:37 <ais523> http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/8373/162327.aspx#162327
20:17:37 <elliott> slightly over that in fact
20:17:39 <zzo38> elliott: It doesn't matter what they call it, they can call it "Sponsor Appreciation" category if they want to, but its color should be gray. (There are some categories that do share colors with other categories)
20:18:07 <elliott> ais523: oh, so it's not actually a flogscript program that outputs html
20:18:17 <zzo38> (The other gray category is the "Error'd" category)
20:18:52 <elliott> ais523: http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/8373/165183.aspx#165183
20:19:02 <elliott> ais523: why use two appropriate languages when you can use only one inappropriate language?
20:19:14 <ais523> somehow, I don't quite think that thread expected that answer
20:19:35 <Ilari> IIRC, on Linux, one can't map 0 pages... :-)
20:19:48 <elliott> ais523: ok, now i just want to know if you can do a full web app in SQL, assuming you have a table called, say, context containing query string, post data, etc.
20:19:56 <elliott> ais523: CRUD has never been so cruddy!
20:20:17 <elliott> SET MARKUP HTML ON SPOOL OFF;
20:21:00 <ais523> Client.c:(.text+0x83): warning: the `gets' function is dangerous and should not be used.
20:21:09 <ais523> question: is it fair to deduct someone 2 and a half grade boundaries for that?
20:21:18 <elliott> "Maybe not the most elegant, but I thought it's worth sharing. C# .Net & SQL2005. Grabs raw XML from SQL output and loads it to an XSLT file for output."
20:21:34 <ais523> this mark scheme is draconian
20:21:36 <elliott> ais523: what's the context?
20:21:44 <zzo38> Even some of the programs I wrote in GWBASIC did not use line numbers (and GWBASIC requires line numbers).
20:21:51 <elliott> ais523: as in, is there an easy situation to imagine where you can easily overflow that?
20:21:56 <elliott> ais523: almost certainly, I would guess
20:22:12 <elliott> ais523: in which case, yes. I suppose there *might* be ... some ... context in which gets is abominable but not TOTALLY abominable.
20:22:18 <elliott> ais523: No, fuck it, it's unacceptable. Deduct the marks.
20:22:37 <Ilari> For fun, try to get there and then crash the app... :-)
20:22:50 <ais523> interpreting it literally, it would be a deduction of 4 grade boundaries, which would be even more ridiculous
20:22:57 <ais523> that's from a first to a fail
20:23:08 <elliott> ais523: come on, he used gets()
20:23:15 <elliott> ais523: well... how big is the buffer?
20:23:26 <elliott> 1024 and it's a human typed message or whatever? ok, deduct 2.5
20:23:31 <elliott> 80 or something and it's the same? fail!
20:23:54 <ais523> elliott: wow, you dumped a lot of info at once, from my point of view
20:23:59 <ais523> I wonder if I had a connection hiccup?
20:24:22 <elliott> ais523: but i still saw what you wrote
20:24:27 <elliott> can you see this? respond ASAP
20:24:41 <elliott> can you see this? say "yes2" ASAP
20:24:50 <elliott> ok, your connection is fine now
20:24:54 <elliott> have fun reading my messages :P
20:25:23 <ais523> they also used scanf("%[^\n]") into a 100-byte buffer
20:25:35 <ais523> user input in both cases, what else would you use gets() for?
20:25:42 <elliott> ais523: yes, but it could be like
20:25:44 <ais523> and intended to be human-typed
20:25:49 <elliott> or it could be an IRC-style message
20:25:51 <Goosey> In memfuck(current name) Cat is produced like so: +\[>,\[./]<]
20:25:56 <ais523> elliott: it was, literally, an IRC-style message
20:26:06 <ais523> the question could be best described as "like IRC, except using UDP"
20:26:24 <elliott> ais523: well, 4096 bytes with gets() is only worth a 1 to 2 grade deduction i think, since that's far more than irc allows
20:26:31 <elliott> ais523: but scanf on a 100-byte buffer?
20:26:37 <elliott> ais523: deduct as many marks as you possibly can
20:26:44 <ais523> that was for a username
20:26:47 <elliott> ais523: although... if his program compiles and runs and works, then don't
20:26:53 <elliott> ais523: because i bet a lot of the others don't :)
20:26:55 <ais523> oh, the program doesn't work
20:27:16 <ais523> yep, I'm just trying to interpret a markscheme that deducts 2.5 grade boundaries for any warning
20:27:31 <ais523> that's caught at the warning level of -Wall without -Wextra and without optimisation, which is a really screwed up warning level
20:27:47 <elliott> ais523: eh? -Wextra isn't all that popular
20:27:54 <elliott> and optimisation doesn't add warnings does it?
20:28:02 <ais523> most of them can't be caught without optimisation
20:28:10 <ais523> because there isn't enough information
20:28:16 <elliott> ais523: ...wow just wow @ gcc.
20:28:19 <Ilari> Heh... When I did programming course, assignments were failed for any warning...
20:28:27 <elliott> Ilari: now *that's* just stupid
20:28:34 <ais523> e.g. at -O2 you get nice warnings like "warning: this buffer will always overflow"
20:28:43 <elliott> ais523: I say: deduct as much as you can, *unless* all the other programs are *even more terrible*.
20:28:43 <ais523> Ilari: I'm marking to a similar markscheme right now, and it seems unfair
20:28:50 <ais523> elliott: no, that was one of the worse ones
20:28:59 <elliott> ais523: ok, I see no reason not to kick it to death then
20:29:08 <Ilari> Well, in context of that course, it wasn't very unfair.
20:29:21 <ais523> now, I have a different student's work, which is mostly very good except they forgot to include string.h
20:29:24 <Ilari> (multiple returns with feedback).
20:29:27 <ais523> and their makefile uses -Werror, so it doesn't compile
20:29:45 <elliott> ais523: wait, i was thinking of them as a clueless 18 year old
20:29:54 <zzo38> Is it possible to configure which warnings are considered errors and which are warnings?
20:30:07 <ais523> Ilari: they were told to use -Werror, as a method to make them take warnings seriously
20:30:21 <ais523> zzo38: there's -pedantic-errors, but nothing finer-grained than that IIRC
20:30:39 <elliott> I usually go for -Wall -pedantic
20:30:44 <ais523> agreed; -pedantic-errors is over the top, though
20:30:53 <ais523> especially as the standard itself only insists on warnings
20:31:16 <ais523> (to be precise, diagonstics of any type, the compiler defines what a diagnostic is, but everyone interprets it as "warnings or above")
20:31:19 <elliott> ais523: oh, that -pedantic is with -std=c89
20:31:28 <ais523> elliott: they've been told to use -std=gnu99
20:31:32 <ais523> in fact, the examples won't compile without it
20:31:33 <zzo38> Some I think ought to be errors, some I think ought to be warnings, and some I think ought to be considered correct and have no warning and no error.
20:31:38 <elliott> ais523: i have little faith in this course
20:31:43 <ais523> I would have complained, except the course is focusing on C as a method of teaching hacking Linux
20:31:55 <ais523> zzo38: if you consider it correct, you can use -Wno-
20:31:56 <elliott> ais523: please god keep these people away from my kernel
20:32:08 <elliott> ais523: at least it's motivation for me to work on @ :)
20:32:10 <ais523> e.g. -Wno-format-security to turn off warnings about printf(variable);
20:32:23 <elliott> ais523: hmm, is there a -Wno-if(x=y)-warnings?
20:32:24 <ais523> elliott: I guessed from context
20:32:25 <Ilari> Heh... Reminds me of one of my programs... It has some code accepted from somebody else... Guess which modules have -Werror and which don't? :-)
20:32:40 <ais523> elliott: I believe so; clang even tells you what the option is, unlike gcc
20:34:06 <Ilari> IIRC, extra pair of () should silence that warning...
20:34:12 <ais523> elliott: -Wno-parentheses
20:34:19 <Goosey> elliott: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Memfuck
20:34:20 <ais523> and as Ilari says, you can suppress it by doubling the parens of the if
20:34:39 <ais523> in fact, I've taken to using double parens around any assignment in an expression that isn't just x=y=z
20:34:44 <ais523> to say "yes I really mean this"
20:34:46 <Goosey> I'll write more, but that's all I got without an interpreter or compiler to base what it's capabilities are
20:35:04 <elliott> Goosey: is User:Goosey actually registered?
20:35:08 <elliott> you created that page as an IP
20:35:24 <zzo38> For example, in Enhanced CWEB the assignment operator is printed by left arrow to easily tell the difference of a equal operator, so, we do not need that warning. But using numbers as pointers and pointers as numbers (except zero) without cast should be error, instead of a warning.
20:35:26 <elliott> Goosey: btw, suggestion: whenever you add commands to BF, take a BF command away to make it interesting :-)
20:35:59 <Goosey> but do you think the structure right now is solid enough to implement?
20:36:26 <ais523> elliott: hmm, this student would get full marks, apart from the inability of it to compile due to the missing header, and because it reads data after a free()
20:36:33 <elliott> Goosey: I fixed up your page a bit.
20:36:39 <elliott> Goosey: formatting and categories
20:36:44 <ais523> oh, and not checking the return value of fgets, but I bet those marks will be moderated up because the other TAs didn't think to check
20:36:53 <elliott> ais523: deduct the minimum you can + 1
20:36:53 <pikhq> "Reads data after a free"?
20:36:56 <Goosey> Thanks, wasn't sure how to add categories
20:36:57 <elliott> ais523: i.e. second-minimum
20:37:02 <elliott> pikhq: yes, but come on, everyone else is even worse than this.
20:37:07 <ais523> it's a fixed markscheme, no place for subjectivity in theory
20:37:10 <pikhq> Instant fail in the course, if it were up to me...
20:37:13 <ais523> because it has to be the same between different markers
20:37:18 <elliott> pikhq: they're masters' students :)
20:37:19 <pikhq> elliott: Then everyone should fail.
20:37:20 <ais523> pikhq: it's -3 out of 20, that's quite a lot
20:37:34 <ais523> and pretty much every student got that -3 for some reason or another, mostly overflowing fixed-size buffers
20:38:03 <pikhq> ais523: That earns them -1 degree.
20:38:33 <ais523> (mostly only if too much data was given, but several students wrote code that was guaranteed to overflow no matter what; in particular, many students seemed to think strcat had the magical property of working even in contexts where no sensible function would)
20:38:45 <ais523> I've lost track of how many times I've seen strcat to an uninitialized buffer
20:39:11 <ais523> one student even tried strcat to a buffer initialized with a constant string with no length specified
20:39:22 <ais523> and gcc with -O2 gave me a nice little "this function will always overflow its buffer" warning
20:39:43 <ais523> I'm using -O2 just to get the warnings
20:39:51 <ais523> I run the programs at -O0 to reduce the chance they crash arbitrarily
20:40:27 <ais523> (also, the second exercise, the example code they've been given to work with malfunctions at -O1 or higher, because it tries to use a loop to busywait without checking timers or even changing a volatile variable)
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20:41:14 <pikhq> These are all mistakes I'd want to hand out a failing grade for. Dear God, I must be absolutely amazing just because I don't completely and utterly suck at this.
20:41:20 <pikhq> ais523: Fail the professor!
20:41:25 <ais523> pikhq: oh, I would if I coudl
20:41:57 <elliott> ais523: is there a way back up from the rabbit hole?
20:42:07 <ais523> in fact, the course has two professors, one who distributes examples which don't compile with their recommended -Werror (mixing up signed and unsigned pointers), and the other who's ridiculously strict about everything and recommended the -Werror in the first place
20:42:38 <ais523> the first one set the exercise, then unexpectedly had to leave for several weeks, and I've had to do loads of work to try to handle the fallout
20:43:09 <pikhq> ais523: And now I see absolutely nothing wrong with my exploiting the statement of the problems on programming assignments just to amuse myself.
20:43:32 <ais523> pikhq: you have to be careful, you may lose marks just because the markers don't understand what you did
20:43:33 <pikhq> "Implement foo non-recursively" → "Implement foo with a manual call stack instead of using the C stack"
20:43:59 <ais523> the best submission I saw clearly did something like that, their server wasn't what the rest of us had expected, but a server in the Apache sense
20:44:06 <ais523> it had things like thread pools, logging, and daemonization
20:44:11 <ais523> even though we hadn't asked for them
20:44:36 <elliott> ais523: unless they're Vorpal; then they might have actually meant it *seriously*
20:44:39 <ais523> hey, I can't report other student's marks!
20:45:00 <elliott> ais523: although automatic daemonisation is actually an anti-feature...
20:45:08 <ais523> I know, it made it a pain to mark
20:45:30 <elliott> ais523: OTOH, they're clearly way too bored by this and so how good their program is is basically irrelevant because they should pass anyway :)
20:47:24 <ais523> the most annoying thing about the course is that many students found an exercise which was meant to test that they understood the basics of C and managed to avoid using either pointers or memory management
20:47:28 <ais523> and yet the solution was still mostly correct
20:48:28 <elliott> ais523: to be honest, i tend to avoid using memory management too! although not pointers
20:48:35 <elliott> i don't think i've called malloc in my last three, four C programs at all
20:48:37 <pikhq> ais523: I'd be tempted to do so as well.
20:48:51 <elliott> pikhq: surely not pointers, they're the easiest way to iterate...
20:49:02 <elliott> and the only way to pass around arrays
20:49:08 <pikhq> elliott: Only tempted to subvert the point of the assignment.
20:49:15 <elliott> *and the only way to pass around statically-allocated storage :P
20:49:22 <pikhq> elliott: Also, not true in C99.
20:49:57 <pikhq> Well, technically it's still a pointer behind the scenes, but you *can* pass around actual C arrays just fine in C99.
20:50:21 <pikhq> int foo(int n, int bar[n])
20:50:27 <ais523> void do_something_with_an_int_array(int length, int array[length])
20:50:43 <ais523> pikhq: hey, no getting there first just because I used meaningful variable names!
20:50:56 <elliott> ais523: I'm sorry, but I'd rather see pikhq's line in a program than yours.
20:51:06 <ais523> elliott: indeed, but I'd rather see my line in an example
20:51:10 <elliott> ais523: Calling a variable "length" is bad enough; call an array "array" and I'll never talk to you again.
20:51:18 <elliott> (Unless it's a generic array operation.)
20:51:27 <ais523> well, it's clearly a very generic operation, given its name
20:52:15 <elliott> ais523: surely it should be "void *do_something_with_an_int_array(void (*function)(void *element), int length, void *array[length])"
20:52:24 <elliott> ais523: where the return value is a pointer to the newly-constructed array
20:52:44 <ais523> or permutation-determined-by-length map
20:52:55 <ais523> hmm, seems the Tuesday relevance came several days too early, this week
20:53:20 <ais523> they used pretty much exactly that example, to try to prove that just the type signature said a lot about the function given certain reasonable assumptions
20:54:02 <elliott> ais523: now if they were using haskell...
20:54:08 <elliott> map :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
20:54:10 <elliott> not actually all that helpful really
20:54:31 <elliott> although if you assume it does the *minimum possible orthogonal operation*, then it's easy to deduce
20:54:41 <elliott> reversing is an "extra step", so it doesn't do that
20:54:42 <ais523> elliott: their assumptions were orthogonality assumptions
20:54:55 <elliott> because it doesn't treat the whole data structure equally
20:54:57 <Goosey> wikipedia is shrinking
20:54:59 <ais523> they were trying to demonstrate that their assumptions were useful given the situation
20:54:59 <elliott> so the only thing it can be given those assumptions is
20:55:05 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:55:07 <elliott> map f (x:xs) = f x : map f xs
20:55:12 <ais523> Goosey: you mean, pages are being deleted faster than they're being created? or something else?
20:55:25 -!- oklopol has joined.
20:55:30 <Goosey> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Turing_tarpit&oldid=138230249
20:55:34 <Goosey> That is the OLD revision
20:55:44 <Goosey> I trust you can check the new one :)
20:55:52 <elliott> Goosey: removing pointless fluff is not a bad thing
20:55:57 <elliott> length(page_text) is not a valid metric
20:56:05 <Goosey> I have seen that on MANY pages
20:56:10 <elliott> the Examples section is worthless, there
20:56:17 <elliott> and "Use of phrase in computer science" is uncited bullshit
20:56:51 <elliott> lol, the universal rebuttal.
20:57:22 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language is a better article than i expected
20:57:28 <elliott> although lolcode should not be the first entry there :(
20:57:41 <Goosey> but it isn't fun to program in
20:57:43 <elliott> and WHY does http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxi_Programming_Language have an article
20:57:46 <elliott> Goosey: lolcode is the worst esolang ever.
20:58:31 <ais523> elliott: LOLCODE is, unfortunately, the most famous esolang
20:58:48 <elliott> <civodul> viric: ams was asking about the status of NixOS on MIPS
20:58:48 <elliott> <civodul> so i was advertising your hard and fruitful work :-)
20:58:51 <elliott> <ams> no, you where trying to get me to do viric work so he can get all the credit... du'h.
20:59:08 <elliott> ais523: hmm, i think it may be tied with brainfuck
20:59:12 <elliott> ais523: but you're probably right i guess
20:59:37 <pikhq> elliott: He makes RMS look positively well-behaved and accepting of dissent.
20:59:41 <elliott> ais523: brainfuck gets a *lot* of publicity in random forums -- think bad design, Invision Power Board, circa 2004-2006 sort of places; it ends up popping up a lot... and I'm not sure how I know this
21:01:11 <elliott> pikhq: can i hire you to write a super-awesome specialiser
21:02:47 <pikhq> elliott: I accept $50 American Gold Eagles.
21:03:29 <elliott> pikhq: certainly, i'll go kill an american eagle and gold-plate it
21:03:42 <pikhq> No, I mean the legal tender coin.
21:11:00 <zzo38> This game is bad because Hitler played it.
21:12:55 <elliott> <ams> make nixos free software, and we can host it on ftp.gnu.org
21:12:55 <elliott> <viric> I agree making it free software
21:12:55 <elliott> <viric> Although doing that only to get hosting... :)
21:12:55 <elliott> <ams> making nix a gnu poroject could be cool
21:12:55 <elliott> <ams> viric: the main reason should be to respect your users
21:12:57 <elliott> <viric> oh oh, I'm shocked, lessons about respect
21:13:01 <elliott> pikhq: you can't make this shit up
21:15:12 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:16:36 <zzo38> I like to write free software so that the software can be used and improved.
21:17:05 <Goosey> I like to write expensive software to teach people how to steal.
21:17:30 <elliott> Goosey: unless the software is like, Theft: The Interactive Tutorial, then you don't
21:17:33 <elliott> you teach them how to infringe copyright
21:18:48 <zzo38> You are allowed to charge as much money as you want for free software. But it is still illegal for someone to go to your house and steal the disk.
21:19:18 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, ams really is more of a zealot than rms.
21:19:42 <elliott> pikhq: now he's chastising them for having Acrobat Reader packages and using kernel.org Linux rather than linux-libre
21:19:50 <elliott> pikhq: and telling them they need a policy on Freeness
21:20:27 <elliott> pikhq: tempted to write vams(1) now
21:20:54 <pikhq> Which shoots you if you have the audacity to use kernel.org Linux.
21:21:22 <elliott> woo, I have non-free packages installed!
21:21:28 <elliott> 11 non-free packages, 0.7% of 1678 installed packages.
21:21:29 <elliott> 2 contrib packages, 0.1% of 1678 installed packages.
21:22:00 <elliott> "The Free Software Foundation lists vrms among packages that don't respect its Free System Distribution Guidelines"
21:22:04 <elliott> Description: Purports to tell you about nonfree software on your system.
21:22:04 <elliott> Problem: Incomplete and misleading.
21:22:04 <elliott> Recommended Fix: Remove it, a free distribution doesn't need it.
21:22:23 <elliott> ais523: a debian package that tells you about all the non-DFSG stuff you have on your system
21:22:29 <pikhq> ais523: Virtual RMS. It tells you if you've installed any packages from contrib or non-free.
21:22:33 <elliott> I would just like to list http://libreplanet.org/wiki/List_of_software_that_does_not_respect_the_Free_System_Distribution_Guidelines here
21:22:37 <elliott> Homepage: http://xchat.org/
21:22:37 <elliott> Problem: Refers to a non-free browser in its URL handlers.
21:22:37 <elliott> Recommended Fix: Remove the URL handler entry.
21:22:41 <elliott> presumably it means Firefox...
21:23:10 <ais523> wait, referring to nonfree software violates the FSDG? and that has a confusingly similar acronym to the DFSG?
21:23:27 <ais523> *initialism, if there are any pedants watching
21:23:29 <elliott> ais523: apparently you have to remove Chromium, too!
21:23:52 <pikhq> ais523: Emacs violates the same, then.
21:23:55 <coppro> who made these guidelines
21:24:06 <pikhq> (it refers to Win32 and DOS a lot in its manual)
21:24:15 <elliott> pikhq: the author of the emacs tutorial had to avoid mentioning win32/dos
21:24:19 <elliott> because rms said he couldn't
21:24:23 <pikhq> elliott: *facepalm*
21:24:38 <elliott> pikhq: IIRC, he was also told to insert a lot of the language about "you MAY have arrow keys on your TERMINAL!" too
21:24:41 <coppro> rms does not need crack to write guidelines like this
21:24:51 <elliott> coppro: no, it's just that he's always on crack
21:24:54 <elliott> coppro: it was just an extra detail
21:25:10 <coppro> the debian documentation
21:25:12 <elliott> Description: Gaming server that emulates Battle.net®
21:25:12 <elliott> Problem: only useful with proprietary software
21:25:20 <elliott> you can't make this shit up
21:25:27 <pikhq> elliott: I see absolutely *nothing* wrong with merely mentioning proprietary software. Especially when it's such well-known software that anyone who hasn't heard of it is too in awe at the magic box to bother reading documentation.
21:25:34 <elliott> pikhq: [[ Description: Gaming server that emulates Battle.net®
21:25:34 <elliott> Problem: only useful with proprietary software ]]
21:25:54 <elliott> [[ Description: scripts to talk to the CIA commit service.
21:25:54 <elliott> Problem: contains a script for bitkeeper, which is only useful with proprietary software
21:25:54 <elliott> Recommended Fix: remove bitkeeper script ]]
21:26:01 <elliott> [[ Description: command-not-found is the program sugesting what package to install if one tries to execute a non-installed application in a shell.
21:26:01 <elliott> Problem: suggests proprietary software ]]
21:26:03 <coppro> elliott: that's a wiki, right?
21:26:07 <elliott> ais523: the FSF consider command-not-found non-Free
21:26:12 <elliott> coppro: sure; you go audit the revision history
21:26:23 <coppro> I was thinking I should add one for
21:26:36 <coppro> "does something RMS already wrote software for"
21:26:44 <elliott> heh, indeed, the Debian documentation is non-FSF
21:26:53 <coppro> "is written by someone who works for a software company
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21:27:02 <elliott> [[ Description: Web browser
21:27:02 <elliott> Problem: recommends non-free software ]]
21:27:10 <elliott> they aren't even complainig about the artwork or tardemark
21:27:17 <elliott> [[] Firefox 2 in the repos allows you to install flashplayer 10. I have tested this myself, and it downloads, installs and runs.]]
21:27:25 <elliott> FIREFOX IS NON-FREE BECAUSE IT LETS YOU INSTALL FLASH
21:27:46 <coppro> also isn't the artistic license FSF-approved?
21:27:57 <Ilari> No mention of branding (which is why Debian has Iceweasel)?
21:28:03 <pikhq> elliott: But the crazy trademark and artwork scheme? A-OK.
21:28:03 <elliott> Ilari: nope, just recommending flash
21:28:06 -!- wareya has joined.
21:28:13 <elliott> Description: firefox based web browser
21:28:14 <elliott> Problem: same issues as firefox, incl. suggesting proprietary plugins
21:28:14 <elliott> Recommended Fix: use gnu icecat ]]
21:28:33 <elliott> " linux linux-backports-modules* linux-ubuntu-modules "
21:28:41 <coppro> look at the thunderbird entry
21:28:47 <elliott> [[ Description: Allows running MacOS inside a GNU/Linux system.
21:28:47 <elliott> Problem: Only runs/supports proprietary software. ]]
21:28:58 <coppro> Problem: Recommends non-free software (extensions).
21:28:58 <coppro> Recommended Fix: Change link to point to GNUzilla's list of free addons.
21:29:04 <coppro> YOU CANNOT MAKE THIS SHIT UP
21:29:34 <elliott> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnewsense-users/2007-02/msg00027.html in which vrms outputs 7 gnu packages and nothing else
21:30:03 <elliott> coppro: i even kinda respected the gnewsense people before this
21:30:19 <elliott> coppro: but they're not dedicated to Free Software -- they're dedicated to pretending non-Free Software doesn't even *exist*!
21:31:02 <coppro> elliott: that is... wow
21:31:24 <elliott> [[ Description: UNetbootin allows for the installation of various Linux/BSD distributions to a partition or USB drive, so it's no different from a standard install, only it doesn't need a CD. It can create a dual-boot install, or replace the existing OS entirely.
21:31:24 <elliott> Homepage: http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/
21:31:24 <elliott> Problem: It lists many non-fsdg operating systems. ]]
21:31:50 <coppro> can we just kill RMS now pls
21:32:03 <elliott> FUSBi, the Free USB Installer, downloads free GNU/Linux Distributions for you and creates bootable USB images.
21:32:04 <elliott> FUSBi supports automated installation of of all the FSF-endorsed Free Software GNU/Linux Distributions, such as gNewSense, UTUTO, Dynebolic, Musix GNU+Linux, BLAG and GNUstep. You can also use it with your local image files.
21:32:05 <elliott> http://aligunduz.org/FUSBi/
21:32:13 <elliott> wow there is a gnustep livecd.
21:32:40 <elliott> "Personas for Firefox Changes the look of the browser easily MPL 1.1/GPL 2.0/LGPL 2.1 Licenses stated on the website." --IceCat addons
21:32:47 <elliott> I bet most of the Persona themes
21:32:47 <coppro> why do dfsg consider make-doc and the like non-free
21:32:56 <elliott> coppro: GFDL with invariant clauses
21:33:01 <elliott> coppro: for instance, you can't modify the emacs manual to remove the GNU manifesto
21:33:09 <elliott> coppro: redistributing it like that is disallowed
21:33:17 <elliott> coppro: (The GFDL is pretty much the worst license... ever.)
21:33:35 <coppro> especially because it makes GCC docs suck
21:33:35 <elliott> coppro: btw, if I have an urge to make a license that's even more GPL than the AGPL, just for the esoteric of it, is that bad?
21:33:38 <coppro> since they can't include snippets
21:33:41 <coppro> because that violates GPL
21:34:03 <elliott> I was thinking that it'd be like the AGPL, except s/over a network/over any kind of communication -- Unix pipes, IPC, anything/
21:34:12 <coppro> elliott: don't forget system calls
21:34:14 <elliott> that would disallow proprietary frontends to GPL'd programs
21:34:53 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what about disallowing any transfer of data whatsoever to anything proprietary?
21:35:02 <coppro> the ultimate fsf isolationist software
21:35:03 <elliott> coppro: I was going to add a clause saying that a shell being able to pipe one program to another doesn't make this apply, so that you can distribute non-GPL'd programs with a system
21:35:08 <elliott> coppro: but what the heck, let's not include that exception
21:35:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Copying and pasting GCC output into IE: a license violation.
21:35:21 <elliott> "Anything that makes a sideways glance at this program must be IGPL'd (Insane General Public License)."
21:35:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: make it *Microsoft's* license violation
21:35:35 <coppro> Free General Public License
21:35:41 <pikhq> God, the GFDL sucks so bad.
21:35:47 <elliott> coppro: FUGPL Fucked Up General Public License -- or, to every developer ever, the Fuck You General Public License
21:36:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Installing the software on Debian: A licence violation.
21:36:22 <Sgeo> I guess I can't use FUGPL'd software on Windows?
21:36:34 <elliott> reading about the software on a non-totally-GPL'd operating system: license violation
21:36:37 <coppro> elliott: Apparently someone once made the mistake of introducing RMS as an author of open source
21:36:46 <elliott> knowing about the software and using non-FUGPL'd software in any way: license violation
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21:37:17 <pikhq> coppro: Oh, the ranting that must have brought.
21:37:47 <elliott> coppro: <viric> elliott: so promotion of non-free software (like that gaming server) is counted as not respecting
21:37:48 <elliott> coppro: <viric> elliott: now it's time to consider the "lack of features" a promotion of non-free software
21:37:50 <elliott> i fully support this motion
21:38:27 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, so not having something proprietary software has is a promotion of it?
21:38:45 <elliott> because people might use that software because it's more featured
21:38:59 <elliott> in fact, every second spent not replacing all software with GPL'd equivalents is a second spent in sin
21:39:20 <coppro> and you'll go to a special hell for that
21:39:26 <coppro> you'll have to spend eternity listening to RMS
21:40:04 * Sgeo wonders if anyone really uses vrms
21:40:52 <pikhq> coppro: Mostly, yeah.
21:41:06 <coppro> in fact, I'm curious to see what I have that is non-DFSG, so I'm downloading vrms
21:41:21 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, having any use whatsoever for proprietary software is a licence violation.
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21:41:25 <elliott> coppro: "downloading"? surely you just mean installing :P
21:41:39 <coppro> elliott: have to download first... but yes, through apt
21:41:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: not licensing your thoughts under the FUGPL is a license violation
21:41:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: having a dream involving non-FUGPL'd software is a liecnse violation
21:41:53 <coppro> flash and microsoft fonts
21:42:05 <coppro> also some nvidia drivers apparently
21:42:07 <coppro> but I just removed them
21:42:26 <zzo38> Why did they send a request like this? "POST http://127.0.0.1:6667/ HTTP/1.0"
21:42:39 <elliott> zzo38: it's some exploit i think
21:42:42 <elliott> that hasn't worked in years
21:42:48 <elliott> it connected to the irc server, i think
21:42:53 <elliott> because it proxied to localhost's irc port
21:43:01 <elliott> so people wrote javascript to do that with an iframe or something
21:43:12 <elliott> <coppro> also some nvidia drivers apparently
21:43:12 <elliott> <coppro> but I just removed them
21:43:15 <elliott> coppro: are you on a nvidia card?
21:43:24 <coppro> I don't even know why they were on my system
21:43:32 <zzo38> If you want to connect to my IRC server you use the proper IRC client please.
21:43:43 <elliott> coppro: mine are: http://sprunge.us/PYKQ
21:43:54 <zzo38> Not trying things like this that doesn't work the IRC is not even HTTP
21:44:08 <elliott> coppro: Coq documentation, Emacs documentation, gcc documentation, LHA, Sun's Java (for Minecraft), and the non-free TTFs for Luxi Mono which I don't even use because Emacs fails at it so I'll just remove that.
21:44:52 <Sgeo> GFDL violates DFSG, or is the documentation under some other license?
21:44:53 <coppro> actually, my list might not be 100% accurate, depending on how vrms works
21:45:04 <coppro> Sgeo: If it has invariant sections, yes
21:45:12 <elliott> GFDL violates DFSG under certain conditions
21:45:15 <elliott> GNU likes those conditions a lot.
21:45:29 <elliott> coppro: it just lists every package from the non-free and contrib repos installed
21:46:06 <elliott> coppro: iirc the Artistic License v1 won't be included
21:46:12 <elliott> because debian consider it Free or something
21:47:13 <pikhq> elliott: AL 1 isn't DFSG.
21:47:29 <zzo38> Why do they try to access /favicon.ico with every request? Can't the client cache it? Do I need to change the response code to 410 instead of 404 to make it stop doing that?
21:47:55 <Sgeo> elliott, reread what zzo38 said
21:48:05 <elliott> zzo38: IIRC some browser buggily requested a 404'd one every request
21:48:07 <elliott> zzo38: so it might be those.
21:48:14 <zzo38> Or should it change 412?
21:48:25 <pikhq> Argh, it is. And Wikipedia lies.
21:49:13 <elliott> pikhq: I'm now trying to figure out if specialising Y for argument fact gives you the "obvious" way to do a recursive fact in the lambda calculus.
21:49:21 <elliott> pikhq: And if you can then somehow transform this into a directly recursive function.
21:49:53 <elliott> All interesting partial evaluators seem to use “The Trick” (i.e. eta expansion) somewhere to get specialization going. How does that work in your machine?]]
21:52:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: enjoy your eye pain
21:53:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm assuming the eye pain comes from whatever is normally in the borders.
21:53:55 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Edinburgh author Iain M. Banks,]] — Somewhere on the webosphere
21:54:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Honestly, North Queensferry is hardly indistinguishable from Edinburgh.
21:58:54 <zzo38> What more channels do I need?
22:00:24 <zzo38> I can add in any channels you requested *now*, before it is too late!
22:00:49 <Phantom_Hoover> So, I'm assuming "200-metre long cigar with globes full of shooty things" is a good starting point.
22:02:20 <Sgeo> " Visit Embassy Tel Aviv's Classified Website:"
22:07:17 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: That irregularly shaped thing immediately below the staircase pair is one below sea level.
22:07:29 <fizzie> (Because it's that pool.)
22:07:38 <zzo38> Now I added one channel
22:08:17 <fizzie> Speaking of the stairs, heh, it seems that the torches along the edge of the stairs make it look like the stairs are three wide in the topo-map.
22:12:18 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:12:36 -!- Sasha2 has joined.
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22:14:30 <Sgeo> elliott, why am I a pope?
22:14:57 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, Vorpal, elliott, vote for where I have planning permission. Over the causeway is my current location.
22:16:30 <Sgeo> Is "planning permission" a formal thing or just a rule of the server?
22:16:45 -!- Sasha2_ has joined.
22:17:25 <Sasha2_> I am running Biome Terrain Mod
22:17:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean?
22:17:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, "can I build a huge and very visible structure in the air over the causeway?"
22:17:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "causeway"?
22:18:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, do you mean the skyway?
22:18:16 -!- Sasha2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:18:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, do you mean the bridge?
22:18:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if you mean over the bridge: no. Also it would mess up the max alt reeds
22:18:44 <zzo38> I prefer C instead of C++.
22:19:02 <Goosey> I was just wondering though
22:19:12 <Goosey> I started out with functional languages
22:19:22 <zzo38> Then use C. Learn C. I like to use Enhanced CWEB.
22:19:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Goosey, Prolog isn't functional, although it's very closely related to functional language.
22:19:56 <Phantom_Hoover> And an introduction to programming that most of us can only dream of.
22:20:02 <Goosey> Ahhh, splitting hairs main.
22:20:16 <Goosey> I didn't learn C until like my 3rd language
22:20:24 <Goosey> and I wasn't interested in it for a while
22:20:42 <zzo38> C is a very good program language to learn. Forth is also a good program language to learn.
22:21:30 -!- augur has joined.
22:23:55 <Sgeo> At least C++ has more of a reason to exist than C++/CLI
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22:24:44 <wareya> the only useful thing about C++ is that it's like C but you can put functions in objects and that there's inheritance
22:24:51 <zzo38> You can have opinion, if you want to. But I prefer Enhanced CWEB (in C mode).
22:25:09 <Sgeo> elliott, you hate Smalltalk now?
22:25:14 <elliott> <Goosey> I started out with functional languages
22:25:14 <elliott> <Goosey> Prolog was my first
22:25:35 <wareya> elliott: not if you're making something like a video game
22:25:37 <elliott> functional first language is incredibly rare in programming
22:25:47 <Goosey> I don't care for video games though
22:25:50 <elliott> Sgeo: inheritance is one of smalltalk's mistakes :) newspeak corrects this
22:25:54 <wareya> If you think that inheritance is bad for video games that I don't know what to tell you.
22:25:59 <zzo38> I think in C, it is not even useful for function in object and inheritance, because C has pointers and structures and unions and preprocessor, and you can make similar stuff like what you need, with it. And even Enhanced CWEB, to add interpreted codes at compile-time.
22:26:08 <elliott> wareya: hell, I don't think objects are suitable for video games.
22:26:14 <elliott> but objects with inheritance are the worst.
22:26:30 <wareya> have fun in a world where video games don't ever use objects
22:26:36 * Sgeo is excited for Newspeak... but when will it settle down?
22:27:01 <zzo38> I do think prototype inheritance is useful for text-adventure games, though.
22:27:22 <wareya> elliott: Hell for video game designers
22:27:36 <elliott> wareya: um, video game *designers* don't code.
22:27:51 <elliott> anyway you have no idea what hell is, you were just brought up on imperative programming and now you have a stupid, warped view of everything
22:28:11 <wareya> I was brought up on shoving as much logic into one line as possible.
22:28:33 <zzo38> I design a game, I will generally, also program it into the computer. I make a game differently than other one, but that is because I have different opinion than other one, is OK!?
22:28:34 <Deewiant> elliott: Are there any mature-ish FRP libraries yet?
22:28:37 <elliott> wareya: yes. you're hardcore. don't ever forget that.
22:28:51 <wareya> Trying to be hardcore is the mark of a bad programmer, which I am.
22:28:59 <elliott> Deewiant: Yes and no. It's easy to do FRP if you know what application you're using it in.d
22:29:04 <elliott> Deewiant: General FRP is... heh.
22:29:17 <Deewiant> elliott: So just for some domains, or what?
22:29:19 <elliott> Deewiant: The current best solution for general FRP is to use a lazy specialiser implementaiton of a language.
22:29:28 <wareya> But it's not because I try to be hardcore, it's because I can't think outside the box of having a main loop with an object instance manager.
22:29:34 <elliott> Deewiant: I'm pretty sure that at least with games, there are robust FRP libraries. But I don't do that, so I don't know.
22:29:59 <elliott> Deewiant: There are simple, general FRP implementations, but they leak space. Lazy specialisers fix this problem, but of course are far from mainstream language implementation and need runtime code generation.
22:30:10 <elliott> Deewiant: Thankfully as an idealist OS developer, I can bundle as many runtime code generators as I like :)
22:31:14 <Deewiant> elliott: /lastlog lukepalmer... ah, I see. ;-P
22:31:18 <Sgeo> Why do a lot of people seem to suggest that Scala's only good part is the JVM thing?
22:31:32 <Sgeo> Am I the only one who wants to see languages in terms of the language itself?
22:31:39 <Deewiant> I submit that that's its only bad part
22:31:50 <Deewiant> Without knowing most of the language
22:32:04 <wareya> People love justifying themselves in the simplest way possible.
22:32:06 <elliott> Deewiant: Shut up shut up I'm not identical to Luke Palmer SHUT UP
22:32:09 -!- elliott has changed nick to Iukepalmer.
22:32:13 <wareya> well, their things, not themselves.
22:32:14 <Iukepalmer> nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
22:32:18 -!- Iukepalmer has changed nick to elliott.
22:32:41 * Sgeo chops off three serifs
22:32:58 <Deewiant> elliott: I'm just wondering what you would've answered if I'd've asked, say, 24 hours ago
22:33:10 <elliott> Deewiant: the same actually
22:33:16 <Sgeo> elliott, howso?
22:33:18 <elliott> Deewiant: I just wasn't planning to use FRP in my OS until today :P
22:33:21 <elliott> Deewiant: I'd already read all the materials.
22:33:41 <elliott> Sgeo: "Hooray! Functional power with Java flexibility! What's that? Our free mixing of effectful and stateless code has meant we can't do obvious program transformations? Our programs aren't composable? All of functional programming's benefits gone? ...Well, at least it runs on Java!"
22:33:57 <elliott> Deewiant: But no, general FRP doesn't really exist right now. Ho hum.
22:35:33 <elliott> Deewiant: Or should I say "we know exactly how to do it, and it's really hard" :P
22:35:56 <Deewiant> elliott: "All benefits" is a bit of a stretch, sounds like Haskell loses all the benefits because it has an IO monad :-P
22:36:15 <elliott> <Deewiant> elliott: "All benefits" is a bit of a stretch, sounds like Haskell loses all the benefits because it has an IO monad :-P
22:36:30 <elliott> Deewiant: it would if everyone made all their functions result in IO and just made pure functions be "return whatever".
22:36:55 <Deewiant> Oh, they don't segregate purity statically at all?
22:37:13 <elliott> Deewiant: I don't think so.
22:37:22 <elliott> Deewiant: Or if they do it's clearly not very effective, as you can e.g. call java methods for math or whatever.
22:37:23 <Deewiant> (Disclaimer: I know hardly any Scala)
22:37:36 <elliott> Deewiant: And presumably they haven't segregated "pure Java API functions" from impure ones because that'd be a *gigantic bitch* to do.
22:37:43 <elliott> Deewiant: Plus they'd have to do it for every Java library ever.
22:37:56 <Deewiant> elliott: They can have done it for just java.lang.Math, of course. :-P
22:38:20 <elliott> Deewiant: Considering that everyone goes OMG SCALA YOU CAN CALL INTO JAVA CODE ITS WONDERFUL, I doubt that.
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22:38:46 <Deewiant> And if it's user-specifiable, they can just do it a bit at a time.
22:38:53 <Deewiant> And let the users worry about what's not done.
22:39:03 <elliott> Deewiant: I have read little bits of Scala and written my own simple programs.
22:39:13 <elliott> Also I keep track on the general functional programming whateverosphere.
22:39:16 <elliott> Deewiant: I have never heard of that once.
22:39:34 * Sgeo wants to hotswap Haskell
22:39:45 <Deewiant> elliott: That "everyone" that goes like that presumably is not the crowd that would write pure functions anyway. ;-P
22:39:58 <elliott> Deewiant: One wonders what they see in Scala.
22:40:08 <elliott> Deewiant: (Perhaps it's the shorter anonymous function syntax.)
22:40:25 <Sgeo> The syntax has a weird flexibilit
22:40:34 <Sgeo> Have you seen specs?
22:40:51 <Sgeo> Not necessarily saying it's "good", just perhaps a reason some people like Scala
22:41:48 <zzo38> How many surrealists does it take to change a light bulb? Two. One to hold the giraffe and three to fill the bathtub with brightly colored machine tools.
22:46:37 <elliott> 23:37:30 <Gregor> augur: What with mud being /just/ a complex assortment of organic and inorganic molecules some of which are dissolved into and others of which are suspended in water.
22:47:16 <augur> elliott is agreeing with me on something
22:47:23 <elliott> i agreed with Gregor there
22:47:36 <elliott> 23:41:18 <Gregor> Y'know what people? Curry chicken is JUST chicken and curry powder. SUCK IT.
22:47:48 <elliott> 23:42:18 <augur> Gregor: no, it doesnt. curry chicken needs at least some sort of liquid.
22:48:11 <augur> i didnt really read what you wrote
22:48:45 <elliott> 23:43:21 <augur> i know because im a linguist!
22:48:47 <elliott> don't you mean linguistician
22:48:53 <elliott> 23:43:57 <pikhq> Linguistics has little to do with cuisine.
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22:49:44 <elliott> 23:49:14 <augur> non-compositionality, bitches
22:49:44 <elliott> 23:49:17 <augur> get used to it
22:49:50 <elliott> augur: sounds like something an imperative programmer would say
22:50:07 <elliott> 23:51:05 <pikhq> Gregor: Which are clearly not curry made with potato chips.
22:50:20 <Gregor> I've had curry potato chips.
22:50:22 <Gregor> They ... aren't that good.
22:50:23 <augur> noncompositionality is just the fact that some phrases have meanings that dont derive from the meanings of their parts
22:50:32 <elliott> Gregor: 23:50:51 * Gregor continues to read but not participate in this conversation while munching on curry potato chips.
22:50:38 <elliott> Gregor: Yes you have, that's what inspired pikhq to say that :P
22:50:47 <elliott> Gregor: But I approve of the idea of curry made with crisps.
22:50:49 <augur> im going to order pizza :T
22:51:01 <elliott> <augur> noncompositionality is just the fact that some phrases have meanings that dont derive from the meanings of their parts
22:51:09 <Gregor> elliott: Oh ... OK, that'd also be bad, but curry PO-TA-TO-CHIPS also aren't good.
22:51:26 <elliott> Gregor: s/bad/BRILLIANT/; s/PO[^ ]+/CRISPS/
22:51:51 <elliott> 23:51:21 <augur> ask them if curry chicken can be just chicken coated with curry then fried
22:51:51 <elliott> 23:51:27 <augur> bet you the answer will be no.
22:51:55 <zzo38> Do you know how to play double-loaded dice chess?
22:52:11 <Gregor> elliott: Presumably removing the word "potato" isn't a British-vs-American thing, just a "I choose to be ambiguous" thing? :P
22:52:26 <Gregor> elliott: Or do you call tortilla and corn chips something other than crisps?
22:52:31 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, because "potato chips" minus "potato" is "crisps".
22:52:36 <elliott> Gregor: Because chips = crisps.
22:52:41 <elliott> Gregor: You fail at sentences :P
22:52:53 <elliott> Gregor: Doritos are crisps, yes.
22:52:55 <Gregor> elliott: I was pointing out that in addition to making the change, you're ALSO removing the word potato.
22:53:06 <elliott> Right. "potato crisps" is valid but just sounds weird.
22:53:24 <elliott> Gregor: In fact all of those are crisps. Chips are big chunky pieces of potato that you deep-fat fry, or French fries.
22:53:37 <elliott> Never do you say "potato chips"... well, I guess you could make chips out of like... turnips or something.
22:53:43 <elliott> And then you'd have cause to disambiguate to "potato chips".
22:53:49 <Gregor> I'm talking about CRISPS X_X
22:53:53 <elliott> YOU'RE A FILTHY AMERICAN BASTARD
22:54:14 <pikhq> elliott: To us, "chips" are only big chunky pieces of potato that you deep-fat fry in the context of fish & chips.
22:54:22 <Gregor> elliott: SAY IT! SAY "POTATO CRISPS"! SAY IT FOR DISAMBIGUATION YOU TOOTHLESS BRITISH PUNK
22:54:26 <elliott> pikhq: that's just because you're stupid
22:54:38 <elliott> Gregor: Is that your impression of all Brits? :P
22:55:16 <elliott> 23:59:01 <Gregor> I'm part-Ashkenazi, and nobody cares whether you're religiously Jewish for you to be a Jewish comedian anyway :P
22:55:17 <elliott> 23:59:25 <oklopol> i thought jews are like the OPPOSITE of nazis
22:55:22 <elliott> why did oklopol not get showers of praise for this
22:55:25 <Gregor> elliott: From my one visit to Britain, I think I can say with fair certainty that Brits have less of a penchant for tooth maintenance than Americans, which is not to say that their teeth are naturally worse, just that they don't give a shit, so the lower-bound is lower.
22:56:06 <elliott> Gregor: It also may be that you think teeth being slightly yellow is a sign of not enough maintenance, rather than being a sign of not drinking bleach :P
22:56:19 <pikhq> Gregor: Americans are a bit fanatic about the aesthetic appearance of teeth.
22:56:29 <Gregor> elliott, pikhq: Yes, exactly :P
22:56:49 <pikhq> Gregor: However, Britain has healthier teeth on average.
22:56:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Did that have... any context at all?
22:57:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: "X" was my "t". Anyway, elsewhere a moment.
22:57:24 <pikhq> They're just yellow and crooked, rather than bleached white and mangled into straightness.
22:58:05 <zzo38> Do you know how to play: double-loaded dice chess? monstery poker? monstery Landlord game? any kind of charades game where all motions must be equivalent?
22:58:29 <pikhq> Yes, just like many Americans.
22:58:30 <elliott> pikhq: they're not that crooked :P
22:58:52 <Gregor> elliott: Yes they are :P
22:58:59 <pikhq> elliott: Is orthodontia very commonly practiced there?
22:59:22 <Gregor> I have a PERMANENT piece of metal in my teeth. It is glued into my teeth and there for my entire life. Keep that in mind when answering :P
22:59:33 <elliott> pikhq: they exist, yes. i went to see one because i have a tooth that, instead of going down like it should, decided it didn't have enough space and took two years to jut out slightly above the other two teeth
22:59:40 <zzo38> Did you know that the only telephone in all of hell, allows local calls only, please?
22:59:45 <pikhq> elliott: Braces are *very* common in the US.
22:59:50 <elliott> pikhq: there was an appointment made for the next day to take it out.
22:59:56 <elliott> to take one next to it out so it could descend
23:00:03 <elliott> I still have that tooth jutting out.
23:00:05 <elliott> It causes me no real problems.
23:01:04 <elliott> i'll probably get it taken out at some point
23:01:20 <Gregor> elliott: I think you just proved our point :P
23:01:23 <elliott> although it does hide the slight gap
23:01:33 <elliott> Gregor: I'm a /rare/ case, there is absolutely no reason that tooth didn't come out :P
23:01:49 <Gregor> elliott: You're talking about the removal of one tooth, not years of braces.
23:01:57 <elliott> Gregor: I would have gone along with it except I'm a fucking wimp and a dentist injecting my gums and then ripping out a tooth sounded like the worst day ever.
23:02:42 <Gregor> elliott: I had all four of my wisdom teeth taken out in one sitting. PUSSY.
23:02:55 <elliott> Gregor: I think one of my teeth at the back is a wisdom tooth... maybe.
23:03:12 <Gregor> Also I had an Herbst Appliance ... worst thing ever.
23:04:11 <elliott> Gregor: Does it look like this? http://personal5.iddeo.es/mmoreira/images/braces/lisa_simpsons.jpg
23:05:22 <Gregor> elliott: No, that's headgear.
23:05:34 <Gregor> Headgear would have been a welcome relief from the fucking Herbst appliance.
23:05:57 <Gregor> I broke that Herbst appliance hundreds of times. I SHEARED THE FUCKING METAL NAILS RIGHT IN HALF.
23:06:19 <elliott> Gregor: i think that your idea of dentistry is... um... excessive
23:06:29 <Gregor> That's not dentistry, it's orthodontia :P
23:06:33 <elliott> Gregor: you do realise slightly yellow teeth are natural right? and that slightly crooked teeth don't feel problematic at all? :D
23:06:41 <elliott> y'all crazy bastards, i'm proud of our british teeth
23:06:44 <Gregor> But they're not pretty!
23:06:57 <Gregor> And I have a proud, jutting American chin thanks to my Herbst appliance!
23:07:04 <Gregor> elliott: You don't wear headgear in public, only while sleeping :P
23:07:10 <elliott> Gregor: I like to think that you do.
23:07:19 <elliott> I swear she did in that episode.
23:07:21 <elliott> America is so fucked up. :P
23:07:27 <pikhq> elliott: We're fucking crazy.
23:07:41 <pikhq> elliott: If it makes you feel better, I haven't had braces.
23:07:47 <pikhq> Or tooth whitening.
23:07:56 <elliott> see here, our whitening system is
23:08:04 <elliott> every single fucking toothpaste is sold because it's WHITENING
23:08:15 <elliott> probably has bleach in it :P
23:08:22 <pikhq> You can purchase tooth bleaching kits over the counter here.
23:08:58 <Gregor> The toothpaste is of course all whitening toothpaste here.
23:09:01 <Gregor> But then, so is the water.
23:09:47 <elliott> i think celebrities get like tooth whitening but they're practically americans as far as i'm concerned
23:10:11 <elliott> http://ryani.freeshell.org/nat_0.txt A proof that 0 is a natural number!
23:10:51 <Gregor> Wow, freeshell.org still exists.
23:11:30 <elliott> Gregor: All I remember about SDF is that the administrator is a huge asshole :P
23:11:51 <Gregor> elliott: Not enough of an asshole to not offer free shells in two-thousand-and-fucking-ten.
23:11:59 <zzo38> Don't ever think for one moment that you have won.
23:12:55 <elliott> Gregor: IIRC someone said something about not buying a premium account because of the cost as an aside in some random thing that was related (although I forget how), and he spent a whole post saying that they probably scavenged out the back of a McDonald's for food because they're so poor and worthless :P
23:13:43 <Gregor> Sounds about right *shrugs*
23:13:57 <Gregor> I should offer free plash-based shells :P
23:14:30 <elliott> Gregor: Y'know, standard Unix is meant to be secure in a multi-user environment :P
23:14:42 <elliott> It's only when multiple people get one user that it's an issue.
23:14:55 <elliott> You might want to disable world reading access to home directories though :P
23:14:58 <zzo38> Gregor: Offer plash-based shells with home directories that are accessible by Hackiki if you have set the permissions.
23:15:20 <Gregor> zzo38: There ya go! Now it's all coming together X-D
23:15:36 <elliott> Gregor: omg and let people query egobot with commands here
23:15:40 <zzo38> elliott: Yes. That can work, too, I think.
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23:16:06 <elliott> Gregor: WAIT, run the system on ... whatever the fuck your POSIX-on-other-OSes thing was called.
23:16:23 <elliott> Gregor: Give shell access exclusively by DirectNet!
23:16:25 <Gregor> Microcosm; and it's not mine, I just started it because other people insisted, I want it to be theirs :P
23:16:31 <elliott> Gregor: Write the server in Plof!
23:16:40 <Gregor> At some point I really need to combine EgoBot with HackBot to make a meta-egotistical thing.
23:16:40 <elliott> Gregor: Match the colours for the DirectNet messages with your neural net!
23:16:49 <elliott> Gregor: Make people compete in an FYB tournament to keep their accounts!
23:16:55 <Gregor> elliott: Thank you for listing my astounding accomplishments :P
23:16:58 <elliott> Gregor: Run the system on JSMIPS!
23:17:02 <Gregor> elliott: Haven't even mention--there ya go.
23:17:08 <elliott> Gregor: PUT THE BABY IN IT
23:17:21 <elliott> Gregor: And power it with # Diet Cherry Vanilla Orange Grape Lemon Lime Mint Roast Chicken Mayonnaise and Cola Dr. Pepper.
23:17:31 <Gregor> Nice copy-paste there :P
23:17:33 <elliott> Gregor: Also store configuration files in RXML. Somehow.
23:17:38 <elliott> Gregor: And kill yourself.
23:17:49 <elliott> Also put the computer inside a PVC instrument-computer-case hyrbid.
23:17:55 <elliott> And thus ends my enumeration of codu.org's contents.
23:18:08 <zzo38> What does RXML means?
23:18:15 <elliott> zzo38: you don't want to know :P
23:18:25 <Gregor> zzo38: http://codu.org/rxml.php
23:18:26 <Gregor> Sgeo: http://codu.org/rxml.php
23:18:53 <elliott> Gregor: http://codu.org/rxml.php
23:19:34 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/porno/
23:19:49 <elliott> Gregor: At least make it 403 :P
23:19:49 <Sgeo> I don't get the x=1 y=1 in the layer
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23:20:00 <elliott> Sgeo: presumably you can move layers around or something
23:20:06 <zzo38> Make it 907 so that you can confuse you
23:20:21 <elliott> I confuse me all the time with invalid HTTP response codes.
23:21:06 <Sgeo> Config files in RXML: Picture of text in MS Comic Sans
23:21:59 <elliott> Gregor: for once i support Sgeo's idea, make it do that.
23:22:19 <elliott> Gregor: did i mention that you should have to play ZEE to find the server address?
23:23:02 <elliott> Gregor: And, um, I give up :P
23:23:34 <elliott> Gregor: How did you carbonate your beverages again? I'm just stalking all of codu now/
23:24:02 <elliott> [[# 1 Tbsp "imitation vanilla flavoring" (those using real vanilla extract will naturally need much less)]]
23:24:07 <elliott> No they won't, you can never have too much vanilla.
23:24:29 <zzo38> elliott: No, it will just make it optionally, I guess.
23:25:08 * Sgeo fails o comprehend zzo38's statement
23:25:12 <pikhq> elliott: ♥ vanilla.
23:25:28 <pikhq> Best alcoholic beverage ever. :P
23:25:39 <elliott> pikhq: getting intoxicated on vanilla would be the best thing ever
23:25:43 <elliott> pikhq: have you ever tasted pure vanilla extract?
23:29:31 <Sgeo> It's alcoholic?
23:30:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: Alcohol is the solvent used for the extract.
23:30:00 <elliott> Gregor: "Subtlty" is not a word; comic 54.
23:30:38 <pikhq> elliott: There's been at least one DUI from drinking vanilla.
23:31:01 <elliott> pikhq: this knowledge is my favourite knowledge
23:31:44 <Sgeo> Even more than the knowledge that just because someone said "You are now breathing manually", doesn't mean that when you forget, you are going to die?
23:33:03 <Sgeo> Hmm. I want to try vanilla extract now, but I don't want the alcohol
23:33:57 <Sgeo> What would happen if I tried vanilla powder?
23:34:25 <zzo38> Sgeo: You would be explosive; that is, assuming that you tried explosive vanilla powder!
23:35:56 <Vorpal> Sgeo, try in what sense?
23:36:09 <Sgeo> The same sense of drinking vanilla extract
23:36:20 <Vorpal> Sgeo, but isn't that a powder?
23:36:31 <elliott> Sgeo: i don't think you quite understand alcohol
23:36:32 <Vorpal> Sgeo, of tiny black dots
23:36:32 <Sgeo> Why can't I put a powder on my tongue
23:36:37 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't think you quite understand vanilla essence
23:36:49 <Vorpal> elliott, vanilla as in the thing you use for icecream?
23:36:56 <elliott> Vorpal: I missed that Sgeo said powder
23:37:04 <Vorpal> elliott, how is alcohol involved in this?
23:37:06 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo> Hmm. I want to try vanilla extract now, but I don't want the alcohol
23:37:14 <elliott> Vorpal: <pikhq> Sgeo: Alcohol is the solvent used for the extract.
23:37:25 <elliott> Vorpal: vanilla essence is vanilla-flavoured alcohol :P but Sgeo worrying about the alcohol from it = LOL
23:37:36 <HackEgo> 264|<Sgeo> Hmm. I want to try vanilla extract now, but I don't want the alcohol
23:37:37 <elliott> good luck drinking enough to have any effect on anything... at all
23:38:03 <Vorpal> elliott, but the powder is just crunched vanilla iirc?
23:38:14 <Sgeo> <pikhq> elliott: There's been at least one DUI from drinking vanilla.
23:38:21 <elliott> Sgeo: That person ingested a whole tank of vanilla :P
23:38:28 <elliott> Have you SEEN how tiny the bottles are?
23:38:38 <elliott> Sgeo: Also, the taste is VERY strong. Drinking a teaspoon would be difficult.
23:38:41 <Vorpal> elliott, but actually using fresh vanilla pods for your icecream tastes way better
23:38:45 <pikhq> elliott: You can get very large bottles of it.
23:38:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I had that once or twice
23:38:47 <elliott> One or two drops gives a very strong taste.
23:38:50 <elliott> pikhq: well right but why would you want to
23:38:55 <Vorpal> I mean, it can't be compared to the usual icecream
23:39:00 <elliott> pikhq: it's not like you'll ever use it up ever :P
23:39:06 <pikhq> elliott: My mom bought a couple once. A few years back.
23:39:20 <pikhq> Thankfully, it's very good vanilla.
23:39:32 <elliott> pikhq: What you need to be able to buy gallons of: MAPLE SYRUP.
23:39:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, that is like cayenne pepper. You buy it once every 10/20 years and it lasts forever.
23:39:42 <elliott> pikhq: It is SO EXPENSIVE ;_; so you should just be able to buy it in bulk and keep it forever
23:39:49 <elliott> pikhq: US probably has it ok, you're close to canada
23:39:53 <elliott> Canada obviously has it in abundance
23:39:56 <elliott> but in the UK it costs tons
23:40:00 <pikhq> Vorpal: You haven't seen my consumption of spice.
23:40:05 <Vorpal> elliott, it is quite expensive yes
23:40:10 <pikhq> elliott: The US also manufactures maple syrup.
23:40:28 <elliott> pikhq: yes but if you could buy "Canadian Maple Syrup" with a maple leaf on it or "American Maple Syrup" with the star-spangled banner
23:40:31 <elliott> pikhq: tell me honestly now
23:40:34 <elliott> pikhq: which would you buy
23:40:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, I believe the glass bottle with cayenne downstairs is from the early 1970s, though mostly empty now
23:41:11 <Sgeo> large metal new strainers > small plastic disgusting strainers
23:41:16 <pikhq> elliott: Depends on where in the US.
23:41:24 <elliott> pikhq: STAR SPANGLED BANNER
23:41:33 <elliott> Sgeo: are you going to try vanilla essence or are you drunk enough already
23:41:43 <Vorpal> elliott, btw made a bunker myself.
23:43:06 <Sgeo> I can imagine using a drop of vanilla every half hour :/
23:43:38 <elliott> Sgeo: You might become dependent.
23:43:58 <Sgeo> Can't tell if you're serious, but if you are, maybe I should stay away
23:45:38 <elliott> Sgeo: Dude, you are crazy.
23:45:40 <elliott> pikhq: Tell him he's crazy.
23:45:45 <elliott> pikhq: Tell him how difficult it would be to get drunk.
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23:46:10 <Sgeo> Hypothetically, would there be a problem with just trying the powder?
23:46:18 <elliott> Sgeo: It would taste like... powder.
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23:53:21 <elliott> pikhq: what is the secret of specialisation
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23:56:20 <zzo38> Do you have an idea of how the computation class would vary by doing [1] a variant of FlooP with a REDPROGRAM command added, [2] a variant of BlooP with a REDPROGRAM command added?