< 1290816029 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: great < 1290816097 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~/code/pkg$ wc -l pkginfo.c < 1290816098 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :174 pkginfo.c < 1290816098 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott@dinky:~/code/pkg$ wc -l pkginfo.sh < 1290816098 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :39 pkginfo.sh < 1290816106 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I think that maybe an sh-based packaging utilities system is a splendid idea. < 1290816199 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 this game < 1290816210 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Played the single-player campaign before, but still fun < 1290816469 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Mmm. < 1290816533 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Even though sh is terrible. < 1290816793 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: < 1290816793 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ busybox sh pkginfo levee | awk '/^Version:/ { print $2 }' < 1290816793 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.5a < 1290816797 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I declare it portable and useful. < 1290817340 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Virtual packages: http://sprunge.us/SdDH < 1290817502 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I should probably write the actual installation script in C so that if you replace the utilities a shell version would use it still works... < 1290817777 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1290818384 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I use $*. Question: Am I bad? < 1290818415 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you're talkative < 1290818419 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: http://www.jaybirdgear.com/cart/sb2/# < 1290818421 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which color < 1290818453 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: they look uncomfortable, putting form above function, and lookinga t it they probably have terrible audio quality. < 1290818456 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh bluetooth? < 1290818463 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it compresses the audio lossily then < 1290818469 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have fun with that < 1290818513 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1290818707 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does Perl have an unless? < 1290818737 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Because it does. < 1290818777 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: because it reads better < 1290818779 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same as "until" < 1290818890 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: $*? Not necessarily bad. < 1290818905 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naked blocks should not count as loops < 1290818913 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Good! Because they don't. < 1290818913 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They should count as ... scopy things < 1290818918 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Good! Because they do. < 1290818932 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: And, yeah, having the installer in C is a good idea. < 1290818932 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The slide for my class says: < 1290818937 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Provides an "oh shit" button. < 1290818942 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are five kinds of loop blocks in Perl. These are the blocks of < 1290818942 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for, < 1290818942 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foreach, < 1290818942 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while, < 1290818942 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until, or < 1290818943 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the naked block. < 1290818953 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: A good idea that I am ignoring because it's too much of a pain! < 1290818955 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ~patches welcome~ < 1290819008 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: At bare minimum, provide an easy way to run it using busybox. < 1290819019 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And make it function using the busybox you ship, of course. < 1290819037 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Why? What's more reliable about busybox vs. ksh? < 1290819061 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Getting a full busybox running is easier than a full coreutils. < 1290819093 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the loop control... stuff (like redo) works in naked blocks < 1290819094 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In case of dire emergency, I could readily statically link a busybox from just about any system. < 1290819111 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: http://www.wormhole.hu/~ice/ksh/ < 1290819115 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, you *could* just say "screw it", like Gentoo does. < 1290819119 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@d unless(_1) if(!(_1)) < 1290819122 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@f unless if < 1290819123 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Find me a system with a C compiler and BSD make that this doesn't compile on. < 1290819125 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which requires a full Python installation for the package manager) < 1290819126 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: (Hint: Such a system does not exist.) < 1290819138 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Hint: your package manager relies on more than *just* a shell. < 1290819156 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Hint: it's rather likely that the rest of the coreutils is busybox. :p < 1290819160 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my opinion the package manager should not require Python < 1290819169 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Okay, so make it function perfectly with ksh and busybox. < 1290819194 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That is still *quite* easy to set up. < 1290819210 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: "busybox sh" is my Portability Checker(TM). < 1290819212 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Heck, if your package manager relies on just those two, you could probably bootstrap a Kitten system from a floppy disk. < 1290819230 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Yeah, if it works on Busybox sh, it'll probably work anywhere. < 1290819235 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: (Also dash, because it's so terrible that nothing that runs on it could possibly fail anywhere else.) < 1290819236 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What with being a *subset* of Bourne shell. < 1290819280 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, having a minimal installer smaller than Debian. :P < 1290819334 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants @ < 1290819351 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty certain that this discussion is not about @ < 1290819364 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: No, it isn't, but no way am I gonna develop @ on Debian. < 1290819370 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want something I can trust not to go stupid overnight. < 1290819420 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Hmm, does using rsync to update a compressed tarball work well? < 1290819427 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Obviously updating a tarball with it is just as good as updating each individual file. < 1290819439 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: But do, say, .tar.xzs change more than the set of changes to the original files? < 1290819449 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus making rsync less efficient on these already-compressed things? < 1290819459 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It would not work well with a compressed tarball. < 1290819492 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Are you suuuuure? < 1290819496 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the *precise* same reasons it doesn't work well with encryption. < 1290819515 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Right, because perfectly compressed data is indistinguishable from random data. < 1290819531 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that doesn't mean you can't diff two pieces of similar random data and get a short diff, no? < 1290819543 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They won't be similar, in general. < 1290819560 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well, I'm also not going to run unxz before every rsync and xz afterwards. < 1290819566 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Suggestions welcome. :p < 1290819637 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Store uncompressed, use rsync's compression? :P < 1290819661 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Store uncompressed = lol, wasteful. I guess it isn't a big deal, but still. < 1290819678 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: (Also, fun fact: I'm compressing the kernel with LZO for the sole reason that it's the fastest to decompress.) < 1290819781 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: http://zsync.moria.org.uk/ < 1290819860 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Nice! gzip-specific... but better than nothing. < 1290819873 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Actually, the gzip-thing could be readily patched. < 1290819881 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yeah, but I have enough work on my hands anyway. < 1290819887 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay. < 1290819901 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[If you don't specify the names of any files to put in the archive, then tar will create an empty archive. So, the following command will create an archive with nothing in it: < 1290819901 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tar --create --file=empty-archive.tar]] < 1290819902 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LIES < 1290819905 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tar: Cowardly refusing to create an empty archive < 1290819929 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But hey, it's rsync-like and works on compressed files, and seems to work much nicer with standard (easily available) servers. < 1290819966 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha, apparently you do < 1290819969 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--files-from=/dev/null < 1290819972 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to stop tar trying to second-guess you < 1290819982 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what an anti-feature < 1290819999 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf, that just creates a bunch of zeroes < 1290820003 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10K of them < 1290820022 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, whatever < 1290820171 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Things I hate more than anything: Stuff that remembers its --prefix. < 1290820180 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I WANT TO BE ABLE TO COMPILE SHIT WITHOUT USING A CHROOT, FUCKERS < 1290820272 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Holy shit, you know fakeroot? < 1290820328 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yeah? < 1290820348 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Guess what version control system it uses. < 1290820349 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Wrong! < 1290820355 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1290820356 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The answer is Arch 1, aka tla. < 1290820357 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patch? < 1290820362 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Oh*. < 1290820364 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*vomit* < 1290820365 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flrghl < 1290820365 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: *The thing uses Arch. In 2010.* < 1290820370 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*arch < 1290820378 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sorry, but, I have to respect anyone crazy enough to do that. < 1290820385 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :% tla register-archive fakeroot@packages.debian.org--fakeroot \ < 1290820385 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://arch.debian.org/arch/fakeroot/fakeroot/ < 1290820385 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :% tla get -A fakeroot@packages.debian.org--fakeroot fakeroot--main--0.0 < 1290820403 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tla's motto is "Simple things should be difficult, hard things should cause you to commit suicide." < 1290820408 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*difficult things < 1290820534 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :extern.h:200: error: conflicting types for ‘getline’ < 1290820534 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/include/stdio.h:651: note: previous declaration of ‘getline’ was here < 1290820542 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: in which glibc extensions harm someone not even using them < 1290820576 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: -std=c99 should turn off glibc extensions. < 1290820584 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: *c89 < 1290820585 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case < 1290820586 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. Still. < 1290820602 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, the extensions should *not* be on by default. < 1290820616 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have them all you want, but they should be enablable options, not default. < 1290820630 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be a #define to disable them < 1290820635 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or an #undef < 1290820649 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey: There's a #define to enable them. That GCC does by default. < 1290820656 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may now curse at GNU. < 1290820673 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the GNU extensions should be disabled if the compiler is invoked by the name 'cc' instead of 'gcc' < 1290820719 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Wait a second, why the fuck does the C compiler change what the glibc does by setting how the code is compiled? Does glibc actually check if the C compiler claims to implement "GNU C", and help it in its evil quest by adding features of GNU C? < 1290820723 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrfffffffffff gnu lockin < 1290820760 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think standards mode controls predefined macros and macros control glibc evilness < 1290820814 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Glibc checks if the C compiler claims to implement "GNU C", and helps it in its evil quest by adding featurs of GNU C. < 1290820829 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: BTW, another option: gzip --rsyncable. < 1290820842 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott: Glibc checks if the C compiler claims to implement "GNU C", and helps it in its evil quest by adding featurs of GNU C. < 1290820845 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha ha ha ha ha ha ha i hate this shit. < 1290820848 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Produces gzip output that is *barely* larger, but readily rsyncable. < 1290820865 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Nice. But I think I'll just use zsync anyway. :p < 1290820869 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HTTP access is nice, after all. < 1290820888 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah; quite a bit nicer to do it all with nothing more than a somewhat-sane HTTP server. < 1290821126 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ sudo ./pkginstall levee < 1290821126 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Installing foo... < 1290821126 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Installing levee... < 1290821128 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHAHA SCIENCE < 1290821186 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Dependencies of that: the "set" built-in, the "[" built-in, the "cd" built in, echo, tar, and touch. < 1290821292 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beautiful. < 1290821296 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: This is a secret message! Please figure out what it means! < 1290821325 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: How's it doing dependency resolution? < 1290821330 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naively? < 1290821336 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if [ -e $1/needs ]; then < 1290821336 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : for dep in $1/needs/*; do < 1290821336 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : install_pkg $(readlink $dep) < 1290821336 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : done < 1290821336 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fi < 1290821339 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Is that naive enough for you? < 1290821343 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naively. < 1290821347 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Of course install_pkg does nothing if it's already installed. < 1290821360 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Feel free to suggest a better way, but I'm unlikely to use it because... there are no runtime dependencies. < 1290821367 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Termcap files. That'd be a runtime dependency. Apart from that, uh... < 1290821369 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though likely working just fine for your purposes, because you are unlikely to ever have circular dependencies. < 1290821374 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Executables that other programs use, obviously. < 1290821380 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But ... not much really. < 1290821402 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the odds are that your dependency graph won't get ridiculously complex. < 1290821431 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that anyone who really wants "standard" programs can install Gentoo Prefix or something. < 1290821504 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Define "standard" programs. < 1290821583 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Expecting your standard, dynamically linked, GNU-filled environment. < 1290821602 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ew. < 1290821621 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: "But why would you want to". :p < 1290821643 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Although I'm hardly unbiased; I'm including Java for one single program. Guess what program. < 1290821653 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Minecraft. < 1290821663 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: HOW DID YOU GUESS < 1290821665 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1290821676 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAGIC < 1290821686 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Java? :/ < 1290821695 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Minecraft is written in Java. < 1290821705 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will not run any OS that cannot run Minecraft. < 1290821706 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus Java! < 1290821737 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back. < 1290821739 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... wtf? < 1290821745 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: What do you mean, "wtf?"? < 1290821767 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott running any kind of java thing, if it weren't for minecraft it would be inconceivable < 1290821787 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: i have a slight feeling you're trolling me here :) < 1290821792 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I KNOW YOU'VE USED ANT < 1290821843 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, no, I'm not really trolling < 1290821914 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never used ant voluntarily, note you < 1290821945 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I have indeed used it, which is how I know how horrible and braindead it is < 1290821986 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kind of bancstar+xml+java molded into a build system < 1290822029 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ant is perhaps the worst-designed build system I have seen. < 1290822052 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... "build system" - at best you can use it to do sequencing in a language worse than dos/cmd batch files < 1290822055 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've never used drupal then < 1290822077 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I include the horrid monstrosity I once saw that was a hybrid of *interactive* Perl, shell, Make, Autotools, and C in that consideration. < 1290822092 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: git? < 1290822095 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: No. < 1290822098 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: IRAF. < 1290822109 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you have just described sounds like git. < 1290822110 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: Which is also notable for being almost its own OS. < 1290822118 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even a "do your worst" given all those tools should end up better than ant < 1290822131 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@pool-173-61-157-191.cmdnnj.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290822131 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==Phantom_Hoover logreading== I have struck diamond. I WILL NOW ACCOUNT FOR EVERY SINGLE DIAMOND BLOCK I MINE SO THAT IT CAN BE SPLIT 50/50. < 1290822134 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Quite true; Ant is just revolting. < 1290822138 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though it matters not. < 1290822149 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 blocks. < 1290822150 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I am glad we agree :D < 1290822157 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ 2 blocks. < 1290822166 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ 2 blocks. < 1290822173 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ 2 blocks. < 1290822191 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done; 8 blocks in total. 4 each. I will put them in my chest. < 1290822220 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Ant The sample build file here makes me want to vomit. < 1290822251 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It actually demonstrates just about everything wrong with XML. < 1290822276 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: lol - it gets MUCH WORSE < 1290822288 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not even a real-world example < 1290822301 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has such a revolting amount of syntactic noise. < 1290822319 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tag based languages are in general a mega failure < 1290822324 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hadn't found one that doesn't suck < 1290822337 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even just replacing the structure with sexps naïvely would dramatically improve that. < 1290822363 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with what now? < 1290822365 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 iron blocks mined. < 1290822378 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: With sexps. Lisp syntax. < 1290822386 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ant is sufficiently braindead and horrible without the syntactic overhead though < 1290822392 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't think that's the only fault! < 1290822393 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1290822402 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: True, I'm *only* criticising the syntax ATM. < 1290822423 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just... vomit all the way down < 1290822425 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: let's write a multithreaded pi computation in ant < 1290822431 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: just to prove how bad it can get < 1290822443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tag-based markup languages are truly vomitous for any usage other than actual markup of text. < 1290822464 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: no. ant is not even interestingly horrible < 1290822477 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1290822484 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 iron blocks. < 1290822507 0 :Sasha!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1290822508 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm listening to music which was sequenced from analysis data of a dna protein < 1290822517 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually pretty cool. < 1290822533 0 :Sasha!~WHAT@97-124-45-68.phnx.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290822542 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: it's up to you to go ahead and do it, but only do it if you truly have *nothing* better to do < 1290822543 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 iron blocks. < 1290822561 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: i have a non-empty set of things better to do < 1290822576 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: I'm glad :) < 1290822579 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Why is it that every make replacement has *worse* syntax? < 1290822604 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: because make is actually at the upper end of build system sensibility < 1290822612 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, it is. < 1290822613 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bunch of coal mined, but whatever. < 1290822629 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of people seem to say "make sucks", then go build something so much worse < 1290822632 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: that is more a statement about everything except make, than a statement about make < 1290822643 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: right you are < 1290822649 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: well, make works only on some systems < 1290822660 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: ant works on more systems < 1290822674 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: that's just the anal sex argument < 1290822680 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People should look at what make does *right* when replacing it. < 1290822685 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Sever] COBOL IS A HORRIBLE LANGUAGE. < 1290822688 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: no < 1290822689 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Server < 1290822692 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cobol is horrible, Netcraft confirms it. < 1290822702 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: people needed ant for things which didn't exist on, say, windows at that point < 1290822703 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or on mac < 1290822704 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I like how it's now transformed into "the anal sex argument". < 1290822710 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah, you know, that common argument about anal sex. < 1290822711 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance: its syntax is *simple and readable*, and it is *declarative*. < 1290822746 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: it isn't afaik, I just thought the analogy was so right for this case < 1290822752 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: it is as of your message < 1290822778 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: The build system that shipped with the official Mac development stuff was a Make derivative. :) < 1290822802 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: And Windows has had Microsoft nmake for ages. < 1290822821 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: not before osx < 1290822863 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: are you saying that software was not built on windows before ant? < 1290822871 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: Macintosh Programmer's Workshop. Make and Shell. < 1290822879 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: troll, feeding, etc. < 1290822882 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was, but people needed something interoperable < 1290822900 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make vs. shell script, who wins? < 1290822908 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: boring, monotnous, etc. < 1290822914 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note initial expressing of ant ignorance and then switching to advocating ant when that seems to be the thing that'll generate more messages. < 1290822915 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+o. < 1290822917 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And anyways, *nowadays* it is very very easy to make an interoperable build system. < 1290822919 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assume UNIX. < 1290822939 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ant ignorance? i use ant in my job. < 1290822943 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, that thing you don't have. < 1290823017 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doubly maintaining separate build systems always existed. makefile/project/whatever generators are also available. also, cygwin (for shell scripts while still supporting windows) and scripting languages < 1290823039 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words: there is no problem that any solved that didn't already have a better solution < 1290823041 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cygwin sucked very much when ant was being created < 1290823045 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any/ant < 1290823047 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still sucks much < 1290823072 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no part of cygwin has suckage in the amounts that ant does < 1290823077 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm fairly certain that just having two completely different build systems sucks less than ant. < 1290823078 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1290823080 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree < 1290823090 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just reminding you of the premise :p < 1290823090 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(make and Visual Studio) < 1290823112 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or just saying "screw it" and build with mingw) < 1290823118 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1290823120 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION <3 mingw < 1290823164 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: am i meant to feel inferior because i do not yet have to work to sustain myself? < 1290823231 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only if you want to < 1290823540 0 :Hiant!~Person@pool-71-255-192-189.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290823549 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good night, and beware of ant < 1290823603 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nn < 1290823686 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm fairly certain that just having two completely different build systems sucks less than ant. // build WebKit some time. < 1290823694 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has at least four separate build systems. < 1290823733 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More coal, blah blah blah. < 1290823948 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 irons. < 1290823980 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More coal. 2 irons. < 1290824172 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 gold; coal. < 1290824387 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, gotta clone this hdd. bbl sweeties < 1290824398 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1290824656 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: As in, one build system for each OS. < 1290824665 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More. < 1290824666 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Not an unholy hybrid of build systems. < 1290824674 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And an unholy hybrid. < 1290824679 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: He means that one build system is what he prefers to ant. < 1290824683 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus invalidating your example. < 1290824685 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION interpreter < 1290824703 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lemme guess. A large part of it is KDE-autotools. < 1290824718 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: On Mac OS X, each subsystem is independently maintained in a separate XCode build, but only JavaScriptCore will build in XCode. They have to be cobbled together by a series of convoluted Perl scripts. < 1290824723 0 :Hiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539] < 1290824728 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(KDE's usage of autotools is sufficiently unique to count as a seperate build system, IMO) < 1290824737 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It uses autotools for GTK+, qmake for Qt. < 1290824753 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... So they redid the entire KHTML build and made it worse. < 1290824757 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gag me. < 1290824759 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 diamond. < 1290824766 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: KDE uses cmake. < 1290824783 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: KDE 3, which Webkit was forked from, used KDE-autotools. < 1290824786 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Something else for ETL, it has two build systems for Windows (one for VS, one for MingW/Cygwin), and a wholly separate build system based on scons for Chrome. Also it has cmake stuff in there I haven't been able to identify the user of. < 1290824794 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Right. Although I think late KDE 3 used cmake. < 1290824800 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which had a gigantic swath of its own macros to replace most of KDE 3's functionality. < 1290824802 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: No. < 1290824813 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think the wx fork must have went away since I haven't seen it lately. < 1290824819 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: The Cmake switch came into being well after porting to Qt 4. < 1290824848 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, s/KDE 3's/autotools'/ < 1290825257 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How to become suicidal: < 1290825265 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. Mine endlessly in Minecraft. Pick up tons of valuable materials. < 1290825271 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2. Discover a HUGE, and ore-rich, cavern system < 1290825274 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3. Get lost. < 1290825281 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4. Find what you think is a path you haven't tried yet. < 1290825284 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5. There's lava on the way. < 1290825296 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6. Successfully execute a jump onto the platform in the middle! Fuck yeah! < 1290825302 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7. Jump forwards to get out. < 1290825304 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8. End up in the lava. < 1290825308 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9. Flail wildly. < 1290825310 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10. Burn. < 1290825311 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11. Die. < 1290825314 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12. Lose everything. < 1290825642 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Lose everything"? < 1290825652 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Die -> lose inventory. < 1290825657 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1290825664 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including the tons of stuff I mined, all my trinkets, and all my tools. < 1290825671 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have enough to rebuild them with some tree-punching in my chest, but still, fuck that shit. < 1290825682 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have just poured water over it. ...Why didn't I...? EURGH YASD < 1290825734 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Holy fuck. EFL uses cmake. But it's not the ONLY user of cmake. I don't know what the other one is. < 1290825739 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This has at LEAST a dozen build systems. < 1290825775 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You are so making me not want to package anything that uses WebKit :P < 1290825784 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yeah. Don't. < 1290825787 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I bet it's two times the fun if you want to create static libraries, right? < 1290825798 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :999999999999999M libwebkit.a < 1290825804 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt very highly that it's capable of that. < 1290825816 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I am pretty sure it is, actually. < 1290825818 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the GTK+ build definitely does create them since it uses .la < 1290825821 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least the suckless guys seem to think so. < 1290825824 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I doubt it's capable /in general/ of doing that. < 1290825836 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is: Only 1/3rd of its hundreds of build systems support that ;) < 1290825840 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Thankfully, I'm doubly uninterested in building non-gtk versions :P < 1290825854 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And most make/cmake stuff will let me just pass -static and go on with my life. < 1290825863 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*get on < 1290825872 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh look, Android uses a different build system from Chrome, and is Make-based. < 1290825888 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know what's terrible? I am currently NOT looking for build systems. I'm trying to do something else. < 1290825897 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://terryxu2008.blogspot.com/2008/08/webkit-runs-on-fltk.html < 1290825910 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hey guys! I ported WebKit to FLTK, which is a major and useful development! Now watch me never say anything about it again, or release the source!" < 1290825919 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a WIIIILD weekend hack! < 1290825953 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good, don't need yet another build system :P < 1290826029 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhyNobodyDeletesWiki -- voted for title most likely to cause harm to the wiki :P < 1290826042 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WhyNobodyPressesEditAndSelectsAllAndThenPressesSaveOnThisPage < 1290826046 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1290826050 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WhyNobodyPressesEditAndSelectsAllAndDeletesAndThenPressesSaveOnThisPage < 1290827124 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: this synthesis thesis is *wonderful*! < 1290827127 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you for pointing me to it < 1290827129 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will read all of it < 1290827437 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LightBot 2.0 has a level editor < 1290827471 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And recursion and conditionals, don't remember if the first had either < 1290827488 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to play a bit of RoboZZle < 1290827547 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh < 1290827553 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My brain seems to be off right now < 1290827653 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would I clear a screen in brainfuck... < 1290827737 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: You can't. But if you assume a standard terminal -- 25 lines on Windows, 24 on Unix -- then you can just print that number of newlines to be sure you're on a blank screen. < 1290827743 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course you might be further down than that. < 1290827749 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is ANSI codes and stuff you can output but bleh. < 1290827773 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: If you keep track of how many multiples of 80 chars you have printed (because it wraps the line at 80 chars), and how many newlines, you can do (24 or 25) - that to get how many lines you need to output. But is it really worth the bother? < 1290827778 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how do commands like clear and cls work? < 1290827784 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same way? < 1290827789 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: cls, I don't know. < 1290827796 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ clear | cat -v; echo < 1290827796 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^[[H^[[2J < 1290827800 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: clear, as you can see, uses special control code. < 1290827804 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there, ^[ = the escape character < 1290827805 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's < 1290827810 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ESCAPE}[H{ESCAPE}2J < 1290827819 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will clear an ANSI-compliant screen < 1290827823 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1290827834 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes sense < 1290827844 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never thought I'd type man can < 1290827846 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: escape is ascii 27 < 1290827850 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man cat for that matter < 1290827875 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: so basically print 27, print "[H", print 27, print "2J". you probably want to print 10 after that for new-line so that it gets flushed to the terminal; otherwise it might be buffered and not happen < 1290827886 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1290827888 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that might actually leave you on the second line of the new screen, so you'd have to use cursor codes to go up < 1290827888 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try it < 1290827889 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but try it and see :P < 1290827907 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: you will find http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code useful < 1290827913 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the various ANSI escapes < 1290827947 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: btw, i don't know of any brainfuck programs using the ansi escapes. so you may be innovating here :) < 1290827958 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: of course having to output a newline to have any of them take effect is a real blocker. but good luck. < 1290828217 0 :Hiant!~Person@pool-71-255-192-189.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290828425 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: so do you want me to summarise what i was thinking for that tarpit kernel or not? :p < 1290828942 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: http://sprunge.us/gXiR < 1290829028 0 :elliott_!~elliott@91.104.255.188 JOIN :#esoteric < 1290829043 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1290829045 0 :elliott_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :elliott < 1290829047 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1290829048 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1290829733 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1290829745 0 :Goosey!~goose124@99-60-156-25.lightspeed.elpstx.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290829805 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1290829808 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1290829810 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1290829819 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming * are escapes < 1290829831 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I cant send the escapes in this I guess) < 1290829841 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*[H*2J < 1290829845 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that look right? < 1290829871 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: yes < 1290829879 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it that < 1290829889 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: 'cuz ANSI said so :) < 1290829894 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1290829896 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: [H will do something and 2J will do another thing < 1290829899 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see my wikipedia link for exactly what < 1290829903 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if ^[ is an escape < 1290829916 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: but you need a newline after that, probably, or the OS won't send it to the terminal < 1290829922 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is ^[[H^[[2J < 1290829924 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldnt it ibe < 1290829933 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*[H*[2J < 1290829937 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it because < 1290829952 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2J is 2 characters? < 1290829960 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: only some things start with [ < 1290829968 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ^[ thing is either coincidence or poor choice < 1290829970 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't run it yet, except in the interpreter < 1290829976 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(poor choice in putting [ after it that is) < 1290829979 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure that if it's compiled to asm there is a higher chance < 1290830011 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, not really < 1290830019 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's still likely to use the C stdio < 1290830022 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is buffered < 1290830025 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the 2J (clear screen) does have [ before it < 1290830030 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, indeed it does < 1290830033 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^[[H^[[2J < 1290830033 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1290830034 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1290830036 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*[H*[2J < 1290830040 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THATS WHAT I WAS SAYING XD < 1290830053 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1290830057 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try that then < 1290830062 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shaddap :D < 1290830072 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we offer advice from the finest of minds, nobody ever said it had to be *accurate* < 1290830083 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only single-character escapes have no [ while the control sequences (where there is a list of zero or more numbers separated by semicolons, followed by a command code) do have [ because ESC [ is the control sequence introducer. < 1290830086 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes the oracle of wisdom doesn't bother checking! < 1290830273 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lol < 1290830274 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1290830316 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway something like < 1290830327 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*[H*[2JHello, world! < 1290830328 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foobar! < 1290830331 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should work just fine < 1290830333 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you do < 1290830346 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*[H*[2J and then want to read input without printing another newline < 1290830348 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be impossible i think < 1290830350 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try it and see < 1290830368 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy shit < 1290830378 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dont know if this is supposed to happen when compiling with beef < 1290830383 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm totally getting the thing cleared < 1290830485 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed < 1290830487 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It works < 1290830488 0 :wxl!~wxl@c-98-232-228-160.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290830495 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it might have been an escape code < 1290830502 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I never would have known wich < 1290830504 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which* < 1290830552 0 :wxl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know where I can find more info on prelude? < 1290830560 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wxl: define prelude? < 1290830565 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell? < 1290830566 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Prelude? < 1290830585 0 :wxl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1290830585 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wxl: well Nikita Ayzikovsky is our friendly or... uh, semi-friendly absentee channel op, lament < 1290830594 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wxl: if you hang around here for a week or three he'll turn up < 1290830603 0 :wxl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, k < 1290830628 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wxl: and of course information on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fugue is likely to apply < 1290830632 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since Prelude is just Fugue in ASCII < 1290830642 0 :wxl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1290830666 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://web.archive.org/web/20060504072859/http://z3.ca/~lament/prelude.txt draft spec on internet archive < 1290830667 0 :wxl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly I'm not well versed in musical notation < 1290830689 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suggest just sticking around here, it's entertaining enough to be worth the wait :P < 1290830695 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he pops in basically regularly. < 1290830740 0 :wxl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds good < 1290830856 0 :wxl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this aint much different than wots on the wiki < 1290830871 0 :wxl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wish I could find some other sample programs < 1290830891 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember seeing some fugue tracks by someone who came in here. < 1290830896 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tracks, programs, whatever :P < 1290830926 0 :wxl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damnit I guess I must resolve to learn music :D < 1290830939 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wxl: just enough to convert to prelude :P http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/fugue/src/hworld.mid < 1290830942 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's hello world < 1290830990 0 :wxl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know that much elliot? :) < 1290831002 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wxl: no, i just have a copy of the entire channel logs and grep(1) < 1290831031 0 :wxl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heheh < 1290831239 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if this brainfuck program is faster than clear... < 1290831252 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doubt it because clear is inline < 1290831412 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: "inline"? < 1290831428 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's inside bash < 1290831432 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not here < 1290831442 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ builtin clear < 1290831442 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash: builtin: clear: not a shell builtin < 1290831442 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, i assumed it was :/ < 1290831447 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1290831449 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1290831465 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made a game that has a scroll in it somewhere with the message "This game is bad because Hitler played it" < 1290831476 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike the GNU implementation of true(1) and false(1), clear seems to not have --help or --version < 1290831479 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what minimalism! < 1290831503 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why should a implementation of true(1) false(1) need --help or --version or anything else? < 1290831509 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: because GNU crazy! < 1290831509 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/jdLP < 1290831512 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't make this shit up. < 1290831521 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For complete documentation, run: info coreutils 'true invocation' < 1290831578 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just write in assembly language the true and false program, or machine-codes, for your machine, and then write a simple version in C if needed for cross-platform however < 1290831607 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You really really don't need to whip out asm... < 1290831618 0 :Hiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539] < 1290831643 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree GNU packages are very crazy and bloated mostly, which is why I wrote internationalization.wi program and these things. I like to use the GNU GPL for many of my own programs, though. (For others I use public domain) < 1290831671 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You do not need asm for all programs, but the one as simple as true/false should be simple enough to write a few bytes of machine-codes < 1290831685 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or you could just do < 1290831690 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int main(void) { return 0; } < 1290831698 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not waste your time micro-optimising a utility where it's totally unneeded. < 1290831717 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes you can do that too. < 1290831739 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As you may know, BINARY is a language devised by machines to CONFUSE us." < 1290832037 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1290832058 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only compiler I have found for linux seems to crash when I try to use it :/ < 1290832080 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: Only? Really? < 1290832086 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: You are not looking nearly hard enough, there are hundreds! < 1290832098 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: The state of the art is http://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/ < 1290832106 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: which generates highly efficient C < 1290832112 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: and compiles Hello world to a single print statement < 1290832149 0 :p_q!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :poiuy_qwert < 1290832194 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: There's also "also written in brainfuck" which is a compiler written in brainfuck outputting x86 Linux assembly among others... but really, just use esotope for the best :P < 1290832266 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got one < 1290832270 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1290832272 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one i was using < 1290832295 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when copying the assembly I accidently deleted the last line < 1290832326 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: There's no real reason not to use esotope since it's so heavily optimising. < 1290832335 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will beat any to-assembly compiler I know of. < 1290832411 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ilua < 1290832735 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have idea to make up a roguelike game (I wrote it on paper already), the front-end and back-end each written in Enhanced CWEB, and the program to generate format files written in gforth. This program is a combination of D&D (3.5e), Magic: the Gathering, ADOM, Nethack, ToME. < 1290832840 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I write some in the computer, I will post it < 1290832931 0 :wxl!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1290833027 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1290833066 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not bad < 1290833079 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too bad its to C not assemeblee xD < 1290833082 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tunes.org logs does not log the PART messages, it only logs it is part < 1290833124 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, the log file says "20:42:11 --- part: wxl left #esoteric < 1290833142 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but my screen says ":wxl!~wxl@c-98-232-228-160.hsd1.or.comcast.net PART #esoteric :"into the aether..." < 1290835086 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: There's not *much* benefit for assembly for Brainfuck compilation. < 1290835129 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially when your optimiser does some crazy crazy stuff already. < 1290835141 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today's myth is: That something written in assembly will naturally be faster than the equivalent written in C! < 1290835142 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeh, oh well, I'm not writing in brainfuck to save the workld :P < 1290835147 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :world* < 1290835150 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reason it's a myth? Because C compilers are much, MUCH smarter than humans. < 1290835163 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Despite being written by humans < 1290835168 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are they? :O < 1290835170 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And because assembly is only faster than C if the assembly programmer is brilliant. < 1290835197 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For an example of this, see: x264. < 1290835206 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: Hahah, of course I'm kidding, we were written by humans! < 1290835212 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, C compilers were written by humans! < 1290835217 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also they're not sentient! < 1290835691 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are some who believe we were written by something smarter than humans < 1290835718 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I don't think they'd use the word "written" < 1290835731 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suddenly sees the time gap < 1290835999 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They can't have been THAT much smarter with how much they fucked up ... frankly I would assume that if that's the case, they were at or below our intelligence, just much farther than us in technology. < 1290836030 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And don't give me any of this "benevolent omniscient deity" bullshit :P < 1290836156 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What protections could a smart creator provide against cancer? < 1290836170 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Just wondering, not saying "Oh, what you're saying is wrong" < 1290836198 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The cell already has safeguards. How many more safeguards could be added? < 1290836204 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More redundancy. And I wasn't really arguing that that in particular was a fuck-up, there are far more fundamental fuckups we don't even think about. < 1290836223 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're so fundamental that you wouldn't even realize them normally. < 1290836240 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things like having a sleep cycle and being an animal capable of advanced math with a prime number of fingers. < 1290836265 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things like storing excess spare energy in a form that's harmful and we can't voluntarily expel. < 1290836278 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We don't have a prime number of fingers < 1290836285 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Per hand. < 1290836288 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you have an extr.. oh < 1290836289 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, we're symmetrical, la-dee-da. < 1290836300 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The people and planets are invented by the Universe. < 1290836305 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the result is that our base for counting is 10, which is an utterly-useless base with only two divisors. < 1290836305 0 :Vikrokk!~vikash@210.212.132.193 JOIN :#esoteric < 1290836345 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We should go back in time and chop off everyone's pinkys < 1290836363 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note: In real life, I am not a Lamarckian < 1290836370 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which furthermore is totally useless for interop with base-2 systems, which is the most sensible base for things like computers since it doesn't require anything more complicated than a greater-than comparison so it's easily convertible to and from analog. < 1290836373 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And many of these thing are supposed to be like that. If you do not like it, modify your own body by cutting off your fingers or whatever you want to do. < 1290836389 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Supposed to" < 1290836389 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"supposed"? < 1290836392 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no supposed to. < 1290836413 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no divine purpose. We have five fingers because that's how many fingers our ancestors evolved. < 1290836433 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They didn't evolve a number of fingers ideal for math because math is not necessary for sex. < 1290836466 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1290836570 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yes, and that is the divine purpose, of what is supposed to be. The divine purpose of what is supposed to be, is how many fingers your ancestors evolved. It can happen by random, but many things mixed up together and then the probable and supposed to be is the way Universe evolves by quantum uncertainty principle. < 1290836612 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your definition of "supposed to" is, I would therefore say, totally unhelpful. < 1290836634 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I do not mean there is a divine purpose for the evolution of that many fingers, what I mean is that the evolution of that many fingers *is* the divine purpose, the divine purpose is not *for* that.) < 1290836693 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's sort (in fact precisely) like saying that a god most certainly exists by the materialist definition of "god"; sure, it's true for that definition, but such a god confers no value to life, so who cares. < 1290836707 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sort of < 1290836745 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a materialist definition of "god"? < 1290836745 0 :Vikrokk!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1290836786 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But feel free to please cut off your own fingers or modify your DNA or whatever you like to do to yourself. But do not force to do other people unless they said OK at first explicitly, and only in a small group. < 1290836788 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: A being is just a complex ongoing computation (by the CS-y materialist definition ;) ). The universe is a complex ongoing computation. Therefore the universe is a being. That being is god. That god clearly exists. QED. < 1290836809 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Clearly we should time travel and give humans a total of 8 fingers. < 1290836821 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eight or twelve would be great :) < 1290836825 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, do Christians ever state that as a proof of God? < 1290836835 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: No, that's not a Christian god. < 1290836844 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I would shy away from capitalizing "god" for that god :P < 1290836847 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can still imagine someone saying it < 1290836862 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's part of my argument of why I'm agnostic and not an atheist :P < 1290836878 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is not a proof of God (I think it should be capitalized; the non-capitalized "god" means something different); it is just an opinion of God. < 1290836899 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought agnostic was "It can't be known" not "It depends on your definition" < 1290836916 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: The capitalized "god" is the name of a particular deity; this deity is not that deity. < 1290836920 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: There is different kind of "agnostic". < 1290836941 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of them is "ignostic", which is "I can't answer the question because the question isn't even definable" < 1290836959 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the further caveat that any useful definition yields an unanswerable question. < 1290836979 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Where that question is "Is there a god?" or "Is there a higher power?") < 1290836998 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Christian God" is a useful definition, with a clear cut answer -- No < 1290837014 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, even that depends on your flavor of Christianity. < 1290837014 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: No that is not what I mean by the capitalized/uncapitalized. The non-capitalized "god" is used when the term "gods" can be used for many of the same if applicable. The capitalized "God" is the "supreme being" or such, or whatever; hence, it is usable as a name and can be capitalized. < 1290837018 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Not that clear cut. < 1290837027 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Christianity" is a *class* of religions, not a single one. < 1290837034 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly the fundamentalist God (everything in the Bible is rock-solid Truth with a capital T that's a crucifix) is false. < 1290837059 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am also agnostic; but a lot of difference from other agnostic. < 1290837070 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yes, an all-loving and all-hating God is quite a contradiciton. :) < 1290837077 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would a form of Christianity that can be true in a materialistic universe look like? < 1290837117 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is many denomination of Christianity, including Illogical Christianity (a.k.a. "Chicken", as Jack Chick). < 1290837172 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Bible literally is all contradiction and nonsense and lying. Therefore, do not read the Bible literally if you want to mean anything from it (but there will still be many different opinion, which is also OK). < 1290837210 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Religions' ability to convert useful parables into useless "truth" is pretty impressive actually. < 1290837240 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kind of wonder e.g. in ancient Greece or Rome how much people actually believed in the literal existence of their pantheons of gods. < 1290837262 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or their one pantheon of renamed gods, really :P < 1290837267 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't there some parts that aren't supposed to be directly from God? (Psalms, Song of Soloman), so what do fundamentalists mean by "the whole Bible"? < 1290837282 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yes many religious stuff often does convert useful parables into useless "truth". < 1290837298 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Fundamentalists believe that all of it was inspired by God and is therefore Truth with a capital T that's a crucifix. < 1290837323 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Uh, Song of Solomon is... Porn. < 1290837355 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whether or not anything in the Bible is directly from God, is irrelevant, in my opinion. I do not believe God directly wrote it. Say it is "inspired by God" though if you want to; that is OK with me if you want to say that, but is OK also if you prefer to don't say that. < 1290837355 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore, Porn is the Truth! < 1290837366 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION worships Porn < 1290837390 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Psalms is just poetry and songs in worship of God. < 1290837410 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well nobody believes that God literally penned the Bible (I think?), everyone believed it was penned by humans with divine intervention. < 1290837421 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*believes < 1290837431 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And by "everyone" I mean "all relevant people" or something :P < 1290837505 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Bible was written by many authors; even reading Genesis, it is clearly that the first chapter and second chapter are different. < 1290837553 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway this is a craaaaaaazy tangent :P < 1290837567 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point is we have five fingers per hand and that totally sucks. < 1290837580 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And we spend 1/3rd or more of our time unconscious for no clear reason. < 1290837582 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Then cut off your fingers if you dislike that. < 1290837630 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Cutting off MY fingers does not help, I could just as well count in a different base than everyone else, the number of fingers we have has caused a problem that permeates literally all math. < 1290837744 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well, that is what you can do; if you do not like it, then do not to do it, please. < 1290837749 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not our fingers' fault that we use pi instead of tau=2pi < 1290837781 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It is merely an argument that we were not created by a being that is both omniscient and benevolent, it is not some bizarre social complaint. < 1290837790 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need the "to" there in "to do" < 1290837805 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone please explain to me why? < 1290837813 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That is a completely different reason having to do with mathematics. There are some reasons why 2pi is better and sometimes pi, so that is why pi used. < 1290837831 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Because it's in imperative, not infinite form ... < 1290837841 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: "do it" is an imperative, as is "do not do it" < 1290837849 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1290837893 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It is OK to argue about created by or not, since there is many different opinion based on different reasons. Your opinion argument does work, though, so it is OK. < 1290837896 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e^i2pi = 1 < 1290837900 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait < 1290837920 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why was I uncertain of that? < 1290838041 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could live with only 2 fingers in each hand (I have tried), but it is difficult and I have no intention to do so. Therefore, I have 5 fingers in each hand (if you count a thumb as a finger (some people don't)) and it is work good. < 1290838098 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Six fingers would be great too. < 1290838121 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are a few people with six fingers, I think. But it is very rare. < 1290838141 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's even rarer for it to be a fully-developed and usable finger, rather than just a deformed stump. < 1290838177 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yes. But it has happened, even though it is even more very rare. < 1290838186 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure < 1290838240 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Do you want to know why I have tried? It has something to do with D&D game; the way I play it comes up with many strange (and sometimes obscure) questions, some of which I can answer and some of which I cannot answer.) < 1290838399 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1290838434 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1290838620 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like I'm acting out an artificial hyperness of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidYouJustHaveSex that sort despite not in fact getting laid < 1290838637 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, that may have been TMI for this channel < 1290838700 0 :oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1290838766 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: zzo38 < 1290840920 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets the brilliant idea to actually _search_ the wiki for "Site maintenance" and "reserve copy page", finds two missed spam pages < 1290842055 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION googles for a creepy quote < 1290842079 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION also searches for quot, amp and lt < 1290842113 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"However, one could always draw stoic comfort from the possibility that perhaps in the course of time the new vacuum would sustain, if not life as we know it, at least some structures capable of knowing joy. This possibility has now been eliminated." < 1290842121 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...darn the search doesn't include words shorter than 4 letters < 1290842184 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure that "this possibility" is supposed to mean the idea of vacuum decay, but it looks like it's referring to the possibility of structures that can know joy in the new vacuum < 1290842187 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How chilling < 1290842195 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And how effect-depleting when I explain something < 1290842222 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I may be wrong and that "this possibility" may be referring to those structures < 1290842272 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone want to read http://www.slac.stanford.edu/pubs/slacpubs/2000/slac-pub-2463.html to help me out? < 1290842316 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um < 1290842326 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right before that bit in http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/11/19/sidney-coleman/ < 1290842339 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"T" < 1290842354 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"T" < 1290842355 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GAH < 1290842372 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i'd hazard a guess any dual meaning is entirely intentional < 1290842388 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is it so bloody impossible to select text in Chrome's PDF reader < 1290842393 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is disheartening" < 1290842396 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, i don't seem to be able to revert the Brainfuck Constants page. darn hugeness. < 1290842462 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TL;DR: AFAICT, it's the depressing meaning < 1290842998 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs a mood depressant < 1290843000 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night all < 1290843517 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1290844242 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1290844799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1290844800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1290845786 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@78.104.80.67 JOIN :#esoteric < 1290849161 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" And we spend 1/3rd or more of our time unconscious for no clear reason." <<< i slept 14 hours the night before last, 11 now < 1290849226 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Sgeo: That is a completely different reason having to do with mathematics. There are some reasons why 2pi is better and sometimes pi, so that is why pi used." <<< no, pi is never better < 1290849811 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1290849867 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-4-230.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290852003 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1290853255 0 :eafkuor!~IceChat7@ppp-17-16.32-151.iol.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1290854617 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both major estimates of IANA IPv4 depletion are now under 100 days... < 1290854770 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@m-77.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1290854975 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And before adress space runs out, it starts to fragment, with maximum allocatable block falling in size. Right now it is still /8. < 1290855071 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(VARIOUS, LACNIC and AFRINIC all have free complete /8). And IANA has 11 of those in pool. < 1290855124 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess once IANA runs out they'll start counting down for individual NICs... < 1290855160 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1290855164 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w/in 25 < 1290855311 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or actually, it might be that once the first RIR (APNIC) depletes, allocations diversify to other RIRs (which will then fragment the routing table to hell). < 1290855568 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no matter what, BAD THINGS will happen < 1290855577 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is at an organization with a /16, so there < 1290855635 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, due to it having a /16, I have a Real IP Address < 1290855636 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Quit < 1290856340 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh... NIC (GbE) in this new computer supports jumbo, but NIC (fast ethernet) in this old computer doesn't. < 1290856484 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1290859867 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231051122.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1290860383 0 :cheater00!~cheater@g231051122.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1290860887 0 :yorick!yorick@gateway/shell/shellium.org/x-ctbmjmvjkzagewnv JOIN :#esoteric < 1290861449 0 :eafkuor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1290861653 0 :Guest49186!~ashish@14.195.79.78 JOIN :#esoteric < 1290861708 0 :Guest49186!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to identify u darling < 1290861726 0 :Guest49186!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweatheart < 1290861729 0 :Guest49186!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1290862698 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1290864946 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1290865170 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1290865556 0 :fxkr!~fxkr@unaffiliated/fxkr JOIN :#esoteric < 1290865621 0 :digger!~alex@92.42.55.15 JOIN :#esoteric < 1290865676 0 :digger!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1290867568 0 :Hiant!~Person@pool-71-255-192-189.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290867846 0 :Hiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1290868581 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1290868659 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1290868661 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1290868698 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1290871186 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1290871358 0 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1290871486 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:42:50 Gregor: Yes, and that is the divine purpose, of what is supposed to be. The divine purpose of what is supposed to be, is how many fingers your ancestors evolved. It can happen by random, but many things mixed up together and then the probable and supposed to be is the way Universe evolves by quantum uncertainty principle. < 1290871495 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Can you translate this from word soup to English? < 1290871550 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:49:58 "The Christian God" is a useful definition, with a clear cut answer -- No < 1290871567 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, the clear cut answer is more like 2^(-(number of claims made in the Bible or thereabouts)). < 1290871630 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:56:50 Well nobody believes that God literally penned the Bible (I think?), everyone believed it was penned by humans with divine intervention. < 1290871631 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:57:01 *believes < 1290871631 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:57:11 And by "everyone" I mean "all relevant people" or something :P < 1290871632 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus wrote the bible < 1290871635 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prove me wrong < 1290871661 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:59:42 Gregor: Then cut off your fingers if you dislike that. < 1290871663 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:02:24 Gregor: Well, that is what you can do; if you do not like it, then do not to do it, please. < 1290871668 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am laughing so much < 1290871714 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:17:00 I feel like I'm acting out an artificial hyperness of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidYouJustHaveSex that sort despite not in fact getting laid < 1290871721 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what you just said, but you're fucked up, dude. < 1290872189 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@j-139.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1290872482 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hi < 1290872494 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1290872575 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Why would someone who refuses to use new technology or follow business requirements or write code that no one else can maintain be a 'real programmer'.]] --proggit; all the replying concurring commands are talking about wasting company money and time. Sigh. < 1290872589 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can we just kick out every software company from the universe, please? < 1290872599 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's in the reply to the Story of Mel.) < 1290872820 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: thank you times a gajillion for this synthesis paper, btw < 1290872844 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just wish it wasn't in badly-rendered .ps < 1290872996 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I read a html-ised version < 1290873006 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the ps one I would like to see < 1290873036 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I recommend the HTML version! But: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.29.4871 < 1290873043 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The PDF is just a conversion of the ps and so is even worse. < 1290873073 0 :cheater00!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey olsner < 1290873074 0 :cheater00!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you there? < 1290873092 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be honest, http://valerieaurora.org/synthesis/SynthesisOS/ with a bit more LaTeXy CSS would be nicer. < 1290873284 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: ping < 1290873451 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i'm not sure i quite understand what a callout is < 1290873487 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1290873548 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, heh < 1290873561 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you try and explain it? he's sort of just glossed over it in three sentences < 1290873562 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, trying to remember. Was over a year ago I read it < 1290873572 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, if you can job my memory a bit. < 1290873588 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well I'd copy and paste except the ps doesn't let me. < 1290873605 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, so the html version? < 1290873612 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The interface to a quaject consists of callentries, callbacks, and callouts. A client uses the services of a quaject by calling a callentry. Normally a callentry invocation simply returns. Exceptional situations return along callbacks. Callouts are places in the quaject where external calls to other quaject's callentries happen. Tables 4.2, 4.3, and 4.4 list the interfaces to the Synthesis basic kernel quajects. < 1290873612 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Callentries are analogous to methods in object-oriented systems. The other two, callbacks and callouts, have no direct analogue in object-oriented systems. Conceptually, a callout is a function pointer that has been initialized to point to another quaject's callentry; callbacks point back to the invoker. Callouts are an important part of the interface because they specify what type of external call is needed, making it possible to dynamically lin < 1290873613 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k one of several different quaject's callentries to a particular callout, so long as the type matches. For example, the Synthesis buffer quaject has a flush callout which is invoked when the buffer is full. This enables the same buffer implementation to be used throughout the kernel simply be instantiating a buffer quaject and linking its flush callout to whatever downstream processing is appropriate for the instance. < 1290873639 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the BufferIn quaject, get and read are callentries, and fill (replenish the empty buffer) is a callout < 1290873649 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, sounds like delegates? < 1290873651 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of thingy < 1290873655 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you know about C# < 1290873664 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yeah but i have a feeling it's more than that... < 1290873684 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Also, don't you mean "function pointer"? :) < 1290873706 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well sure but delegates is more specific than function pointer. It indicates a specific use < 1290873713 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1290873750 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: how? < 1290873826 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well, function pointers can be used for stuff like dlopen() while I can't remember having seen delegates used for anything than "subscribing" to an event kind of thingy < 1290873835 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1290873838 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay then < 1290873875 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: do you know if this system or at least its entire source is available anywhere? < 1290873877 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, but I'm not completely sure what callout is < 1290873879 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would love to emulate it somehow. < 1290873897 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I think source has been lost. Read someone claiming that somewhere. But I don't know for sure < 1290873911 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1290873926 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The irritating thing is all these little snippets of 68k assembly -- so much nicer than x86 :P < 1290874017 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1290874306 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: is it bad that i'm just trying to ignore everything even vaguely imperative in this paper? < 1290874366 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, err. How could you possibly do that? < 1290874372 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it is very imperative < 1290874405 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No it's not. < 1290874408 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, would the thing even make sense ignoring the imperative bits? < 1290874415 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, still synthesis? < 1290874418 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Of course. < 1290874433 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Synthesis is a pure optimisation; f^create(x)(y, z) = f^big(x, y, z) < 1290874446 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It is known as "specialisation" in functional programming circles. < 1290874463 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/05/three-projections-of-doctor-futamura.html < 1290874503 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes indeed. But the way it is implemented (handcoded asm) is very imperative < 1290874528 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, sure. But you could implement the quajects in a pure, high-level language, I would think. < 1290874532 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps modified slightly. < 1290874538 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: (Language designed for this purpose, that is.) < 1290874573 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, functional: certainly. Pure one I'm less certain of < 1290874626 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, we'll have to see. < 1290874722 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, has this completely changed plans for ehirdOS? < 1290874822 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No. < 1290874840 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: In fact I was already strongly looking into a functional specialisation-based system. < 1290875545 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Aww, there's a ByteQueue quaject. It should be a Queue[Byte] instead, and be specialised. :) < 1290876087 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1290876236 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Very clever how the "self" argument problem is avoided by effectively doing "instance->method = specialise[class->method(instance, ...)]". < 1290876255 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For small procedures; and then having larger procedures know what self is, but then call the class method with it as the extra parameter.) < 1290876272 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1290876295 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: How does this fit into the tiny size?! < 1290876304 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no clue. < 1290876340 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :256 kilobytes of ROM for "the entire Synthesis kernel, monitor, and runtime libraries". < 1290876346 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. the OS. < 1290876736 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1290876804 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-13-108.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290876860 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yay run-linking! < 1290877061 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1290877637 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1290877981 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hm? < 1290877996 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, run-linking? < 1290878003 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, also 256 KB was large back then < 1290878017 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: run-linking is one of its forms of dynamic linking, that resolves symbols only when they are used < 1290878030 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1290878044 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I don't think I read that paper from end to end. I read the bits I was interested in < 1290878060 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recommend it! < 1290878061 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway linux only resolves symbols when needed iirc < 1290878074 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you pass some special linker flags < 1290878111 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Umm, no. < 1290878115 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You can't link a program that does < 1290878118 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (0) { podkfsdpfjsdiofsd(); } < 1290878130 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Synthesis using the run-link system, you can, and it'll run fine because that code path is never executed. < 1290878135 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., late binding. < 1290878140 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1290878174 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I meant in a different sense < 1290878188 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the sense of relocations in ELF binaries only being resolved when hit < 1290878231 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1290878528 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, minecart system complete btw < 1290878562 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Oh fuck you, I forgot that game existed until right now. < 1290878597 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, :P < 1290878689 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I seriously did. < 1290879411 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: down? < 1290879432 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros, down? < 1290879448 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, think so < 1290879468 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that going-down has led me to discover the source of all MP lag/sync issues. < 1290879475 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, oh? < 1290879476 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You know how when people walk continuously, you see it as them walking in short spurts? < 1290879483 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes < 1290879493 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Well, when I was on the cart there, I kept going forwards a bit, and then resetting back to where I was, continuously. < 1290879496 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: What I have discovered is: < 1290879502 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I seen that happen < 1290879512 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The client *runs the game world itself* without the server. It does not do any prediction. < 1290879515 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So carts move, but people stay still. < 1290879524 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: And then, when the server tells it "what's up", it completely forgets everything it did and updates to that. < 1290879525 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and you are going to have a hell cleaning up duplicate carts if you timeout while riding one < 1290879534 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: This also goes a long way to explain the double-mining bug. < 1290879538 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yes this is called "prediction" < 1290879540 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, it is common < 1290879545 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: No... < 1290879549 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: As I said, it does not do any prediction. < 1290879559 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It merely simulates the world *without any other actions*. < 1290879569 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So everything you do takes effect, but it does not even try to predict what another player will do. < 1290879571 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, which is just a sort of prediction < 1290879573 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it did, movement would not be in spurts. < 1290879577 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Ehm, no. Look it up. < 1290879584 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well a primitive form < 1290879594 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, "I predict everyone else will do nothing" :P < 1290879624 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Server's back up. < 1290879647 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I know < 1290880611 0 :Sasha2!~WHAT@75-174-218-65.phnx.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290880612 0 :Sasha!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1290880882 0 :Sasha2_!~WHAT@75-174-217-220.phnx.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290881008 0 :Sasha2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1290881022 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1290881056 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-13-108.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290881468 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1290881484 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1290881501 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1290881674 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, down? < 1290881674 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: down? < 1290881676 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1290881677 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1290881683 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: btw there's more cool things in the mine < 1290881685 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: lava lakes for instance < 1290881703 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, mhm. Is that huge one still left? < 1290881714 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, anyway entrance is how water safe < 1290881719 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how? < 1290881724 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: BORING < 1290881726 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :server up < 1290881802 0 :Goosey!~goose124@99-60-156-25.lightspeed.elpstx.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290882197 0 :yorick!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1290882770 0 :yorick!yorick@gateway/shell/shellium.org/x-mtayejwyxgzkktpo JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883077 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1290883077 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1290883077 0 :Ilari_antrcomp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1290883078 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1290883078 0 :ttm_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1290883079 0 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:wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1290883090 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1290883090 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1290883090 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1290883091 0 :yiyus__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1290883091 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1290883091 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1290883091 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1290883092 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1290883092 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1290883092 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1290883183 0 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:32ae:1:4261:86ff:fe96:fca JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883193 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-31-126.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883198 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Ilari_ < 1290883218 0 :Ilari_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Ilari < 1290883226 0 :Gregor!~Gregor@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883289 0 :yiyus_!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :ineiros_!~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :Goosey!~goose124@99-60-156-25.lightspeed.elpstx.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :coppro_!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :sftp_!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :Sasha2!~WHAT@75-174-217-220.phnx.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :fxkr!~fxkr@unaffiliated/fxkr JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231051122.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@xdsl-83-150-123-242.nebulazone.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :17SAAIFGN!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-31-126.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :dbc!~daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@61.251.165.38 JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-173-195-28.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :augur!~augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :Slereah!~butt@ANantes-259-1-37-14.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :myndzi\!myndzi@c-24-19-39-178.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :Vorpal!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :EgoBot!~EgoBot@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :Leonidas!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :Zuu!zuu@0x55529f1b.adsl.cybercity.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :ttm_!~daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :cal153!~cal@c-24-4-207-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@c-24-9-98-117.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :Quadlex!~quadlex@li23-6.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :Ilari_antrcomp!~user@2002:5870:32ae::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :comex!comex@c-67-188-10-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :jix!~jix@tomakin.h-ix.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :mtve!~mtve@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883290 0 :yiyus!~124271242@67.202.106.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883306 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1290883313 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@cs186230.pp.htv.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883316 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@bas5-toronto47-2925109320.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883325 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@c-24-131-149-41.hsd1.mn.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883386 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1290883386 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883446 0 :cheater99!~cheater@g231051122.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883478 0 :cheater00!~cheater@g231051122.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883480 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest7321 < 1290883481 0 :Guest7321!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wowsa. < 1290883481 0 :17SAAIFGN!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1290883509 0 :Guest7321!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Gregor < 1290883536 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883660 0 :yiyus__!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883849 0 :yiyus_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1290883849 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1290883849 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1290883870 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@bas5-toronto47-2925109320.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1290883953 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, down? < 1290883970 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: seems so < 1290884028 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :up < 1290884038 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ^ < 1290884049 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'm taking a break :P < 1290884058 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you will have to /home then < 1290884066 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I doubt you will find your way out < 1290884074 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I plan to. < 1290884078 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(/home) < 1290884084 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, also why did you call me crazy? < 1290884100 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, this is nothing compared to the computer in minecraft. Or Enterprise in it < 1290884117 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I mean, seriously. Get some perspective < 1290884122 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Computer is just a bunch of redstone shit. Engineering really. < 1290884127 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Enterprise was done with an editor < 1290884130 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your mines: crazy :P < 1290884135 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a huge bunch < 1290884142 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, there are crazier mines on the forum < 1290884156 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how big is Vorpal's? < 1290884157 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: but none of them are on our server! < 1290884157 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, a whole thread dedicated to density/efficiency calculations < 1290884163 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I have no idea < 1290884164 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: big enough that i got lost (so like more than 3x3) < 1290884179 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: also he uses SHORTHAND on his signs < 1290884181 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many minutes to walk from one end to other < 1290884183 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: and has some freaky multi-layer displacement thing < 1290884186 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: no ends, it's all... sandwiched < 1290884191 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: he calls branches shit like "B1.1+" < 1290884192 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1290884194 0 :Sasha2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1290884198 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1290884204 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no that is branch 1.1 "and above" < 1290884216 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, B1.1, B1.2 (and in future 1.3 and so on) < 1290884217 0 :Sasha2!~WHAT@75-174-217-220.phnx.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290884231 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that is what the + means < 1290884248 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: just listen to him! < 1290884259 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's planning for B1.3, which means that B2 must be like five years away < 1290884265 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(logic!) < 1290884274 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, no. 2 would be one layer higher < 1290884277 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vertically < 1290884282 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.1 that is < 1290884303 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first number is the vertical index in that section. The second is the horizontal one < 1290884325 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :diamond < 1290884336 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like 1 space from my corridor that I just widened < 1290884353 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 diamond < 1290884503 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and S0/S1/S2 are "service station " < 1290884517 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, the system is perfectly sensible < 1290884529 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, considering the size of the signs < 1290884535 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: he said "CAV" and "Btlp" because typing "Cavern" and "Boatloop" would, i dunno, get too tedious after doing it 459834758935 times < 1290884538 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, if I typed this out it would require several signs < 1290884558 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, because it fit with the rest of the notation on the signs :P < 1290884565 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1290884565 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, also it should say BTL. Must be a typo < 1290884570 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suuure < 1290884575 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1290884579 0 :cheater00!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1290884616 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, fixed that sign now < 1290884628 0 :Goosey!~goose124@99-60-156-25.lightspeed.elpstx.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290884631 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, another advantage: confusing you < 1290884652 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-13-108.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290884708 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.randomfactory.com/lfa/doslinux.html < 1290884734 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer < 1290884734 0 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290884757 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Somebody made a prepack Debootstrap installer for Android. < 1290884787 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: NO DON'T LOOK AT IT < 1290884794 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: IF YOU KNOW OF PRIOR ART YOUR HACKING FEELS LESS FUN < 1290884807 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: It doesn't do the X11 stuff, which is the interesting part anyway :P < 1290884812 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I refused to google for any info on putting another distro on the Ubisurfer :P) < 1290884817 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it probably isn't there, it would DESTROY THE FUN ANYWAY. < 1290884828 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I only looked up how to do Windows NT for MIPS in an emulator BEGRUDGINGLY. < 1290884868 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"thanks for the suggestions no further forward first command said not found second gave me link to the website third said unknown among other things about make and model will keep trying ill get there in the end always do ohh if it helps most off the files in /etc are .d file type" < 1290884871 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--LinuxForums < 1290884888 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*brain axplote* < 1290884908 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, markov chain? < 1290884921 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no, very confused human < 1290884938 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :markov chains are fun :D < 1290884946 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if it helps most off the files in /etc are .d file type" made that line I think < 1290884955 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, either this means markov chains are sentient or that human isn't. < 1290884990 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once, I used a markov chain to convert binary to decimal < 1290884991 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1290884999 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goosey: heh, cool < 1290885003 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1290885029 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it was slick < 1290885040 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its not the best way :? < 1290885042 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Vorpal: Thanks for the suggestions! I'm no further forward. The first command said "not found". The second gave me a link to the website. The third said "unknown" among other things about make and model. I will keep trying. I'll get there in the end, always do. Oh, if it helps, most of the files in /etc are of the ".d" file type. < 1290885044 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha! i decoded it < 1290885045 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ow my brain < 1290885080 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That ... is not a decoding. < 1290885089 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All you've done is add punctuation, it's still nonsense. < 1290885106 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: There were three commands in the previous post to try and deduce what distro the UbiSurfer runs on. < 1290885117 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ".d" file type thing is obviously /etc/init.d and the like, thinking directories are files. < 1290885123 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The website is the ubisurfer website or whatever. < 1290885129 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I now have 64 + 5 diamonds that I mined myself :D < 1290885131 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least you can read it with context and understand it rather than brain crazy :P < 1290885177 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is this doslinux link O_O < 1290885186 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, /etc/shadow.d (I predict this will happen. Some insane distro will make it happen) < 1290885202 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all I have ld.so.conf.d nowdays < 1290885362 0 :cheater99!~cheater@e181135099.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1290885434 0 :cheater00!~cheater@e181135099.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1290885448 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, my tree farm grew < 1290885464 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh yeah, he has a huge underground tree farm < 1290885466 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay invisible leaves < 1290885468 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because he is, as i have stated, crazy. < 1290885477 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that I got from the wiki... < 1290885487 0 :sftp_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1290885501 0 :sftp_!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1290885510 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah reconnecting fixed the invisible leaves < 1290885617 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros_, there? < 1290885684 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, also nailor said "cool" about my tree farm < 1290885689 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1290885700 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn37-199.vpn.utu.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1290885713 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The film details the "chronicle of [Holmes's] greatest accomplishment" in which famous detective Sherlock Holmes (Ben Syder, making his film debut) and his companion Dr. Watson (Gareth David Lloyd) investigate a string of unusual "monster" attacks before stumbling on Spring-Heeled Jack's plot to destroy London with the aid of his robotic dinosaurs. The film has recently been shown on the Syfy channel in the United Kingdom. The film is also availa < 1290885713 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ble on iTunes. < 1290885815 0 :pikhq_!~pikhq@75-173-195-28.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290885829 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1290885889 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: do you think the synthesis .ps will print nicely < 1290885907 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: ping < 1290885935 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290885954 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how should I know? < 1290885963 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, besides you don't believe in paper < 1290885968 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, use the html version? < 1290885980 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott, how should I know? < 1290885981 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cleverly < 1290885984 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott, besides you don't believe in paper < 1290885989 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i do when the .ps is this ugly on screen. < 1290886162 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHERE IS OLSNER IS HE IN SPACE < 1290886257 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, can a sapling grow if you are standing on it? And what happens if it does < 1290886363 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1290886363 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1290886376 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-173-195-28.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290886451 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: How should I know? < 1290886461 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I doubt it would. Either that or you'd get stuck in the bark. < 1290886586 0 :Leonidas_!~Leonidas@coaxial.xivilization.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290886594 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1290886594 0 :Sasha2_!~WHAT@75-174-217-220.phnx.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290886595 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, yeah probably one of those < 1290886595 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has anyone ever tried? < 1290886595 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dislike PDF and PostScript, they are both really bad idea, in my opinion. < 1290886595 0 :Leonidas_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1290886595 0 :Leonidas_!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1290886595 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1290886596 0 :coppro_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1290886596 0 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1290886596 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1290886596 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1290886597 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1290886601 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I dislike PDF and PostScript, they are both really bad idea, in my opinion. < 1290886602 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1290886617 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, so what do you prefer? < 1290886621 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dvi? if so ugh < 1290886623 0 :Goosey!~goose124@99-60-156-25.lightspeed.elpstx.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290886636 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: why do you dislike them < 1290886645 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn37-199.vpn.utu.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1290886666 0 :jix_!~jix@tomakin.h-ix.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290886667 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1290886669 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1290886669 0 :84XABBDYY!~jix@tomakin.h-ix.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290886669 0 :Sasha2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1290886670 0 :84XABBDYY!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1290886692 0 :EgoBot!~EgoBot@64.62.173.65 JOIN :#esoteric < 1290886702 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes I prefer DVI. DVI is simpler and more sensible. PDF and PostScript are very complicated and full of really messy stuff that does not make sense, including animations and audio clips, attachments, encryption, so on... < 1290886748 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :postscript doesn't have encryption afaik < 1290886767 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Postscript does not have animations or audio clips or attachments. < 1290886777 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, PostScript does not have encryption, but PDF has a lot of useless stuff like that, though. PostScript has other problems. < 1290886789 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A completely different kind of problems. < 1290886805 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: And what are they? < 1290886855 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly difficulty of parsing the file. Both PDF and PostScript have a lot of complexity. < 1290886872 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Please explain how it is difficult to parse PostScript. < 1290886883 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It is just a stack-based language, like Forth. < 1290886889 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forth is not difficult to parse and implement, and neither is PostScript! < 1290887451 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1290887454 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I can tell, PostScript is very complicated, and in my opinion is not suitable as an output format. < 1290887475 0 :Goosey!~goose124@99-60-156-25.lightspeed.elpstx.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290887618 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1290887799 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And both PDF and PostScript use text formats for their files, too. < 1290888092 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : And both PDF and PostScript use text formats for their files, too. < 1290888093 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1290888263 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1290888289 0 :Goosey!~goose124@99-60-156-25.lightspeed.elpstx.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290888907 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I'm adding a lava fall to my castle I think < 1290889084 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: haha, this paper is destroying my mind < 1290889116 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'm writing a boot sector now and instead of making a function that calls another function in a loop, i'm putting the wrapper function before that function, changing the future ret to a jmp back here, and then letting it trail through the main body function < 1290889120 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :restoring the ret at the end < 1290889126 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCK YOU CACHE < 1290889148 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I'm trying to make sense of that < 1290889153 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, also it isn't a paper. It is a thesis < 1290889158 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thesis = long paper :p < 1290889163 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if it is synthesis) < 1290889165 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: i'll demonstrate < 1290889181 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :putstr: ...conditional ret... < 1290889190 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mov [return_here], *code to jump to putstr* < 1290889191 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :putchr: < 1290889194 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... code to put a character ... < 1290889196 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :return_here: ret < 1290889203 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see? :D < 1290889206 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1290889208 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :putstr avoids the overhead of a call instruction! < 1290889212 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how is that relevant to the boot sector? < 1290889219 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1290889223 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: um my boot sector has a putstr function for printing to the console < 1290889233 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1290889237 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: and boot sectors have to be small! and fast. micro-optimisation for the win < 1290889241 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1290889243 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and how is that relevant to the paper in question? < 1290889248 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: self-modifying code < 1290889253 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for optimisation purposes < 1290889275 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, see the final conclusions in that thesis < 1290889303 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah < 1290889331 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what were they, i haven't got that far yet < 1290889333 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*what are < 1290889337 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it isn't worth it?" < 1290889338 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it"? < 1290889342 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1290889367 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, "concerns about future up and coming cpu designs" amongst other things < 1290889391 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1290889399 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a pig just stepped off a mountain < 1290889439 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides this self-modifying thing isn't going to work out < 1290889701 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fff < 1290889709 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mov al, byte [cx]" stupid stupid this not working stupid x86 i hate x86 < 1290889711 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86 should die < 1290889713 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forever < 1290889732 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually wait what did i do wrong... < 1290889792 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I now have a nice lava fall on my house < 1290889795 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a good VOY episode? < 1290889800 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: there are none. < 1290889826 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a good TNG episode? < 1290889834 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: well, maybe Scorpion. MAYBE. but that was ruined by deciding to recruit a borg afterwards < 1290889837 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good TNG episode? < 1290889838 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of them! < 1290889851 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, all post-first-season. :P < 1290889855 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently "Shades of Grey" is not well thought of < 1290889898 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's a clip show... < 1290889978 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why don't I go watch Time's Arrow? < 1290890004 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: There's bad ones post-first-season. < 1290890021 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes, but you can generally pick a TNG episode at random and get consistent quality. < 1290890023 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Good VOY episode? The Thaw. < 1290890033 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I liked The Thaw. < 1290890036 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bad ending, though :P < 1290890036 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: True, the bad ones are a *minority*. < 1290890039 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They should have ALL DIED < 1290890054 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Of course what you should do is pick a DS9 episode, non-randomly, pick the first one, and then next time, pick the second one, and then keep going until you pick the last one, and then stop. < 1290890058 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still. It was one of the few genuinely well-written Voyager episodes. < 1290890064 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the most consistent algorithm to get a quality episode :P < 1290890071 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm in the process of that, actually. < 1290890079 0 :Goosey!~goose124@99-60-156-25.lightspeed.elpstx.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290890084 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Sadly, there has been one bad episode in the run so far. < 1290890085 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Q Less. < 1290890096 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: But that just confirms that only TNG should be allowed Q. < 1290890115 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bad Q episode? < 1290890129 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: If it's not in TNG, it's probably a bad Q episode. < 1290890137 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bad Q episode: EVERY SINGLE VOYAGER Q EPISODE EVER < 1290890162 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, Encounter at Farpoint was kinda a bad episode when Q wasn't on-screen. < 1290890179 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you could do it the reverse way too < 1290890191 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, or start at a random one and loop around < 1290890235 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: no < 1290890239 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: DS9 relies heavily on continuity < 1290890266 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DS9 is very much non-episodic. < 1290890270 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's one of its strengths. < 1290890277 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mov al, byte [cx] < 1290890278 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY DOESN'T THIS WORK < 1290890283 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY IS X86 SO NON-ORTHOGONAL < 1290890286 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ah < 1290890308 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1290890316 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should start watching DS9 then < 1290890318 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, with voy you can watch 9/10 of the episodes out of order (ignoring two-part episodes) < 1290890330 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like continuity < 1290890331 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot < 1290890336 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes, indeed, and they'll all suck < 1290890358 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: DS9 is quite good. < 1290890382 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the last good Star Trek series, in fact. < 1290890497 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone know x86 here? Ata ll? < 1290890511 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man. Voyager and DS9 ran *simultaneously*. < 1290890535 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I vaguely do. < 1290890578 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Voyager did everything wrong that DS9 did right, pretty much. < 1290890584 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mov al, byte [cx] < 1290890588 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: WHY IS [CX] INVALID < 1290890599 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pass. < 1290890607 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Effective addresses are _insane_. < 1290890610 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try playing some Star Trek games on SNES :P < 1290890613 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're all really awful :P < 1290890630 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know: [sp] is encoded completely differently to [ax]. < 1290890654 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've got either "really slow-paced write down every word you see game: The Musical!" or "Prince of Persia IN SPACE with more ridiculous timing constraints" < 1290890662 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.posix.nl/linuxassembly/nasmdochtml/nasmdoca.html < 1290890664 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: But that's just the thing, [ax] doesn't work either! < 1290890672 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Now blend them both. < 1290890687 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Prince of PERSIA IN SPACE with more ridiculous timing constraints where you have to write down every word you see. < 1290890687 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prince of Persia IN SPACE: The Musical! < 1290890690 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: TNG and DS9 ran simultaneously too, DS9 spanned part of both other series'. < 1290890693 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That has a pretty good explanation of both x86-16 and -32. < 1290890704 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Where can I go to pay for that? < 1290890715 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That would be the worst musical ever :P < 1290890718 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd see it. < 1290890719 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: And TNG→VOY marks good to bad. < 1290890720 0 :cheater00!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1290890729 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Astounding the short transition there. < 1290890740 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, Voyager had its moments. I'd say VOY -> ENT marked bad to wtf. < 1290890767 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then ENT -> Star Trek X marked wtf -> Star Wars Trek < 1290890784 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, VOY→ENT was bad to PAIN AND AGONY. < 1290890803 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Define X < 1290890820 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: 10 < 1290890827 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Though I think he means 11. < 1290890836 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what 10 is :P < 1290890845 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, he means XII. < 1290890853 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, sorry, yes, XI ... I forget the number because they fucked it up. < 1290890858 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First Contact, Insurrection, Galaxy Quest, Nemesis, Star Trek. < 1290890861 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Duh. < 1290890864 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(source: http://qntm.org/odd) < 1290890874 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, right, Galaxy Quest. < 1290890874 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But I thought (2009) was *good*. < 1290890879 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least everyone who isn't you has said so :P < 1290890888 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't seen it! < 1290890892 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wasn't THAT bad, it just wasn't Star Trek at all. < 1290890923 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Kinda like The Voyage Home, then. < 1290890923 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, I'm defining Star Trek in terms of post-TOS Star Trek, so maybe it's more faithful than I'm making it out to be *shrugs* < 1290890951 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: If you're saying "Too much action! Not enough talking!" then thank god because TOS talking bits were awful :P < 1290890955 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually TOS was just awful. < 1290890968 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Was Kirk a womanising bastard with a gigantic ego? < 1290890972 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care about anyone who disagrees. It was a terrible TV show and Gene Roddenberry without other people to contain him is a hack. < 1290890979 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And William Shatner is a terrible actor. < 1290890985 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: probably you either have to use eax/ecx, or you need some kind of address size override thingy, or you're in real mode and enjoy only being allowed to use e/bx and e/bp in addresses < 1290890992 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I kinda like some of TOS, but yeah, it was corny as hell. < 1290890999 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: real mode, yes. bleh. wait, what's bp < 1290891003 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: And William Shatner is an absolute ham. < 1290891029 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yeah, TOS really wasn't that great, TNG was the height of the franchise which is why I consider it the beginning of "true" Star Trek :P < 1290891046 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ebp is another GPR. < 1290891070 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, inasmuch as x86-¬{64} *has* GPRs. < 1290891105 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: x86-32 has one! ECX! < 1290891109 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1290891109 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the normal C calling convention it's used to store something in the call process. < 1290891111 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cmp al, 0 < 1290891111 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : jz end < 1290891113 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is redundant, right? < 1290891116 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the cmp meant to be < 1290891120 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've totally forgetteneren < 1290891132 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmp is subtraction without storage of the result. < 1290891135 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Nope. That's just more general than the others. < 1290891137 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It still sets the flags. < 1290891142 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you do OR AL AL < 1290891144 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: so that's really what i have to do? < 1290891147 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can. < 1290891154 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's probably faster < 1290891161 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mov al, byte [bp] < 1290891161 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : jz end < 1290891162 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will that work? < 1290891169 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mov doesn't set the zero flag. < 1290891174 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :joy < 1290891178 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW, 0-testing is normally done with test foo, foo < 1290891190 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright then < 1290891194 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(test is like cmp but it does a bitwise and) < 1290891206 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then jz. < 1290891244 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now to figure out how to write < 1290891248 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :putchr: push ds < 1290891248 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : push 0xB800 < 1290891248 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pop ds < 1290891248 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : call _ptchr < 1290891248 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pop ds < 1290891249 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ret < 1290891251 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shorter. < 1290891255 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't think I can optimise _ptchr itself. < 1290891264 0 :cheater00!~cheater@e181135099.adsl.alicedsl.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1290891271 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you saving ds again? < 1290891289 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: Because I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that boot sector code is probably doing things with ds. < 1290891294 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seeing as it has to load stuff in and move it around. < 1290891302 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1290891302 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly it might not be putchring at the same time. < 1290891303 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. < 1290891309 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I'll clobber ds and let the caller handlei t. < 1290891311 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*handle it. < 1290891314 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have written a bootsector code in case you need to see < 1290891337 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that will be fine, thank you. < 1290891344 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1290891370 0 :Goosey!~goose124@99-60-156-25.lightspeed.elpstx.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290891378 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Actually, TAS is where Trek started getting good. Though the acting and animation there sucked. < 1290891380 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: Hmm, there's no ret-if-zero, right? Just jump to a ret... hrmph. < 1290891386 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, wait, holy shit, Deewiant spoke. < 1290891390 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You haven't spoken in like seven years. < 1290891393 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Never saw TAS *shrugs* < 1290891397 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, TAS? < 1290891399 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inaccurate. < 1290891401 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The Animated Series. < 1290891403 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The Animated Series < 1290891407 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1290891407 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Okay, well, at least a few months. < 1290891417 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TAS is awesome < 1290891420 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, AFAIK there aren't conditional rets. < 1290891432 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A few, yes. < 1290891433 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember, x86 is a sucky CISC arch. < 1290891440 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About two, I think. < 1290891442 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: Okay! Now to find out why [0xB800:0] is somewhere in the middle of the screen. < 1290891444 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have designed a instruction set that all instructions are conditional, and all instructions are orthogonal. < 1290891445 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Did you DIE? < 1290891460 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't been following the channel much. < 1290891483 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: But all sorts of nothing have happened! < 1290891487 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It had Kzinti! < 1290891488 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unmissable nothings. < 1290891498 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Slavers! < 1290891500 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why did you leave the game? < 1290891527 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, perhaps because he has non-Minecraft things to do? < 1290891529 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to say something sarcastic about Minecraft at some point when I noticed that going on, but decided against it. < 1290891530 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(thank you Niven) < 1290891542 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, no: server error < 1290891606 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: "Glad to see you're all getting into Dwarf Fortress!" < 1290891618 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: you wouldn't be using string instructions to write to the screen? beware that those write to es, not ds < 1290891655 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I was actually just doing it character-by-character, but YES THAT SEEMS LIKE A SANER IDEA WHY DIDN'T I DO THAT. < 1290891658 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION actually hopes for a Star Trek series that has the balls to bring back the Kzin. < 1290891667 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Thank you for reminding me those exist :P < 1290891669 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Sorry, a Star Trek series that *doesn't suck* while doing that. < 1290891678 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ENT wanted to for its 5th season) < 1290891732 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh dear god, someone on the internet who does the long s thing like did a while ago. < 1290891734 0 :Goose!~goose124@99-60-156-25.lightspeed.elpstx.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290891736 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MUST PUNCH < 1290891760 0 :Goose!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest31764 < 1290891762 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Þou muſt punch, þou ſayeſt? < 1290891792 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: actually, how would the string functions help? < 1290891798 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: DIE IN A FIRE < 1290891819 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: See my code you learn how the string functions help and how ES segment is used and so on < 1290891823 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: hmm i guess if i used movsb, but still how would that help? < 1290891824 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ok < 1290891851 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1290891893 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: i really can't see how that would help :D < 1290891898 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/GGja Note this just copies a single character multiple times, but you can use another string function easily copy a entire string too < 1290891899 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: have you got a link? < 1290891900 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you < 1290891904 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the point is mostly that they increment si and/or di automatically < 1290891915 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: that's *it*? :p < 1290891924 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I didn't really suggest using them, was rather asking if you were using them already < 1290891954 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it does increment SI/DI automatically and you can add a repeating prefix, which is can be used for repeat to copy a string. < 1290891957 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: i'm not, no < 1290891965 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1290891970 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION does strings pascal-style instead, might be simpler < 1290891975 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not < 1290891994 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also they can make simple loops into single instructions with one of the rep prefixes (of which there are a bunch) < 1290892019 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I think there is only two possible repeating prefixes < 1290892021 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: how does that help when i need to have the 0x07 bytes there, too? < 1290892072 0 :Guest31764!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Goosey < 1290892184 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The repeating string commands uses CX register to count how many. < 1290892217 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: so would that copy (cx) bytes? < 1290892275 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes < 1290892302 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can see mine as the example < 1290892314 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1290892378 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This program is the entire MBR code, including loading the kernel. < 1290892563 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, it works and all, but that still doesn't tell me how I can make it somehow insert the 0x07 byte after every bte. < 1290892564 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*byte. < 1290892605 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: so did you look at my thing? < 1290892609 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets the link < 1290892619 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: http://sprunge.us/gXiR < 1290892649 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Yes you do need to do that, and the repeating string commands in x86 cannot do that, so you would instead make your own loop with these string commands in order to do so. < 1290892659 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: But that sort of defeats the point of using them... < 1290892707 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can still use load and then jump if zero and then store and put color and store string next and then repeat over again < 1290892752 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is it down? < 1290892792 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However you might still decide to use my code (if you want to) for loading the kernel it is a very simple way to do so. < 1290892792 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-35-63.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1290892797 0 :Goosey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey y'all. Lol < 1290892818 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, missed line before I lost connection "or service station rather" < 1290892842 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is quite a system indeed." or some-such from me. < 1290892846 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1290892853 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you saw those multi-layer mines < 1290892856 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ? < 1290892880 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, like .^.^.^ in multiple layers < 1290892891 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Briefly. < 1290892894 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, reconnected. < 1290893275 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1290893283 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mov dword"s aren't any slower in real mode right? < 1290893285 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than in protected < 1290893683 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the instruction would probably be a byte longer in real-mode because it'd need a 32-bit prefix < 1290893829 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-40-116.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1290893935 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1290894133 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: it's upsetting how long these functions are :( < 1290894137 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have cls, putstr, nl (newline) < 1290894140 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nl doesn't work, the other two are long < 1290894148 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I might go back to manually munging VGA memory like my last boot sector :P < 1290894156 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is cls long? < 1290894164 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: not really < 1290894168 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ; clobbers es, di < 1290894169 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cls: push 0xB800 < 1290894169 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pop es < 1290894169 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mov di, 2000 ; 80*25 < 1290894169 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_cls: mov word [es:di], 0x0720 < 1290894169 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : dec di < 1290894171 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : dec di < 1290894173 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : jnz _cls < 1290894175 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ret < 1290894210 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a rep stosd :) < 1290894226 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: eff you :P < 1290894235 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALWAYS GOLFIN' MAH PROGRAMS < 1290894240 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: now read http://sprunge.us/gXiR already < 1290894282 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: also, stosw, no? < 1290894311 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, didn't notice you write 0x0720 as a word < 1290894378 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can just fill vga memory with zeroes btw, then you only need to zero a register - which doesn't require a fancy constant < 1290894397 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: that gave me weird artefacts last time i tried but ok < 1290894397 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ; clobbers es, di < 1290894397 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cls: push 0xB800 < 1290894397 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pop es < 1290894397 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : xor di, di < 1290894398 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mov cx, 2000 < 1290894400 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mov ax, 0x0720 < 1290894402 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : rep stosw < 1290894404 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ret < 1290894406 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow after executing this, < 1290894408 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my putstrs do nothing < 1290894410 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1290894425 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: filling with zeroes does appear to work < 1290894456 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: for some inexplicable reason though, writing to [0xB800:0] after that doesn't end up in the top-left < 1290894503 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1290894504 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind < 1290894548 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now why doesn't nl work... < 1290894663 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, cls and nl both work < 1290894675 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: now tell me how to move or disable the vga cursor without going through the bios :-P < 1290894676 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl < 1290894695 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :out x,y ; fill in x and y < 1290894698 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably! < 1290894708 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the VGA registers, it's often several outs. < 1290894720 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :97 boot.o < 1290894722 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time to size-optimise < 1290895161 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: now will you comment on http://sprunge.us/gXiR?! < 1290895227 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmm, yeah, I should comment on that < 1290895250 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: are you avoiding it :P < 1290895460 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: okay stop it, at least say "no it's shitty and i hate it" < 1290895469 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had to think to write that! < 1290895527 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: ;_; why do you do this to me < 1290895569 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I can write a program converting ESC/P codes into DVI, with options for enabling specials to indicate such things as half speed mode, and so on? < 1290895796 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: stop olsner < 1290895797 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or uh < 1290895798 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :start him < 1290895907 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: remind me to never try and tarpit your kernel again :p < 1290896063 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there such things as printers with Plan 9 protocol? < 1290896082 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1290896201 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've become obsessed with counting WebKit build systems :P < 1290896213 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, down? < 1290896218 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, ^ < 1290896230 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1290896238 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: ping < 1290896240 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmm, since that's just a summary of what we discussed last time, I'm not sure if there is anything more I can add... I still don't like that grant/revoke thing and would rather only have "giving" of pages < 1290896255 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, up < 1290896256 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: it is more! mainly the problems to solve section < 1290896263 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: also, how the heck would you have freeing of memory with only givinf? < 1290896279 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: also, there's no "revoking" in my system; there's just re-granting except this time with no permissions, which happens to be equivalent < 1290896280 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*giving < 1290896293 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tally thusfar (keeping in mind that these are build systems, not backends, although the build systems correspond to backends): XCode, Qt (qmake), GTK+ (autotools), EFL (cmake), wx (autotools), Chrome (scons), Android<2.1 (make), Android>=2.2 (make), MingW (make?), Visual Studio, mystery cmake, whateverTF "gyp" is and whateverTF "waf" is. < 1290896319 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing I did realize though, is that block-until-write is a bit awkward since in most cases you have more than one byte to communicate < 1290896340 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: waf is http://code.google.com/p/waf/ < 1290896343 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and requiring completely separate signaling-pages seems inefficient < 1290896344 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and down again < 1290896348 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros_, ! < 1290896352 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: i was thinking it'd be sort of state-machiney < 1290896357 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: block-until-write gives a pointer so you'd do like < 1290896362 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: mypage - block-until-write(page) < 1290896369 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: 0 is operation, 1 is arg 1, 2 is arg 2, etc. < 1290896371 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the result is in bytes < 1290896374 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll take a break instead of reconnectering all the time. < 1290896382 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: but the question is, what if multiple processes want to do ipc at the same time... < 1290896443 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Mmmm, maybe that's what Chrome uses now, although there still seem to be vestiges of scons ... < 1290896446 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, if you VERY far west you will find a huge marker. Should be visible on TOPO map < 1290896457 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, with a sign at the base saying a nice message < 1290896466 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no torch marked path < 1290896478 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't even looked at the map in a long time. < 1290896510 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, do it. It is huge < 1290896523 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd need to use some kind of lock-free data structure in the shared memory I think < 1290896532 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, red thing at the bottom of the map < 1290896535 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a giant tower-looking thing in the topo-map, yes. < 1290896548 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, 1 wide tower with platform at max alt < 1290896559 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, did it before health was implemented < 1290896568 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be nearly impossible to get down nowdays < 1290896583 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, you just build it one wider than necessary, and then dig down. < 1290896591 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah that works < 1290896593 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or rather, one block more. < 1290896610 0 :ineiros_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I update the server? < 1290896620 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : you'd need to use some kind of lock-free data structure in the shared memory I think < 1290896622 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could... have different data and control pages, write something magic to the control page to wake the process up and make it read some IPC:d stuff from the data page < 1290896625 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: malicious process goes and clobbers the whole page < 1290896626 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what now? < 1290896698 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros_: I doubt it'd hurt. < 1290896890 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%macro dpstr 1 < 1290896890 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.str: db .len, %1 < 1290896890 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : .len equ $-.str-1 < 1290896890 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%endmacro < 1290896892 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This macro, it is the useful. < 1290896969 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros_, disconnected < 1290896976 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros_, tell me when it is done. < 1290896986 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros_, I was working on terraforming < 1290897039 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, tell me and not him! < 1290897054 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I assume you will only tell one person.) < 1290897113 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what assembler? NASM or YASM? < 1290897124 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, or gas (I doubt it) < 1290897149 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, the only person who likes gas is you, and that's because you're a fool. < 1290897167 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, I presume whoever invented it likes it < 1290897189 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, the people who invented it meant for it to be a compiler backend.. < 1290897191 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, and the reason I like it is that I'm used to that syntax < 1290897205 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a good compiler backend. It is a terrible language to write anything in. < 1290897211 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros_, upgrade takes long time? < 1290897240 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_, I more often read asm than I write asm < 1290897291 0 :ineiros_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ready. < 1290897335 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, it's a terrible syntax to read. More so than to write, actually. < 1290897368 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : elliott, what assembler? NASM or YASM? < 1290897370 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basn < 1290897382 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*basm? < 1290897390 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nasm < 1290897401 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1290897425 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: wanna SPACE-OPTOMISE my code? :p < 1290897438 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1290897463 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@78.104.81.46 JOIN :#esoteric < 1290897479 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once got fact down to some very small number of bytes, but that's irrelevant and anyway it only worked when it was 32-bit. < 1290897523 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: 16-bit in this case :P < 1290897576 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know very much about 16-bit x86, except that its address scheme is insane, as is its segment system. < 1290897774 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the code for? < 1290897799 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: Boot sector, take two. < 1290897816 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmm, right, it's probably just a bad idea for more than one process to share the same page for IPC:ing < 1290897860 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how hard is a boot sector? < 1290897867 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: right. which poses a problem. as in, how do you do that. < 1290897869 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note: I have never made a boot sector ever. < 1290897872 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: Not hard! But mine's FEATUREFUL. < 1290897892 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, if you have features in the boot sector something's badly wrong. < 1290897915 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have 512 bytes. You do not dick around when you have 512 bytes. < 1290897929 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: Well, my previous boot sector got into protected mode. < 1290897930 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have more like 440 bytes < 1290897934 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*And* had more than one diagnostic. < 1290897937 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: you have 510 bytes < 1290897940 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: nobody said it's going in the mbr < 1290898127 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: holy shit i just realised you can use cp437 < 1290898128 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means < 1290898130 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BOOT SECTOR SMILIES < 1290898145 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what diagnostics do you want to do in the boot sector? < 1290898166 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: EVERY DIAGNOSTIC < 1290898174 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ...why < 1290898183 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do them in the code the boot sector calls. < 1290898196 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: More seriously, there's little point not going into protected mode in the boot sector. < 1290898214 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do it with plenty (over half) the space left to waste. < 1290898223 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it saves you writing what's essentially a pointlessly long boot sector split in two. < 1290898317 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, OK. You go into protected mode, load the actual startup code, then run it. < 1290898345 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: Diagnostics you need: < 1290898352 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: "Oops, something went wrong turning on the A20 line." < 1290898358 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: "Oops, something went wrong going into protected mode." < 1290898364 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: "Oops, something went wrong reading the floppy." < 1290898376 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If something goes wrong in either of those, you just abandon the computer in disgust. < 1290898387 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: I think you underestimate floppy failure rates... < 1290898400 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly after printing "Dear god, man, get into the 21st century!" < 1290898409 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, wha? < 1290898421 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where does the floppy come in? There is no floppy. < 1290898437 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: I see. Where is your OS stored? < 1290898454 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: Also note that reading from a floppy takes less code than from an HD... < 1290898455 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the hard disk; how old is your computer? < 1290898503 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason, I thought people disliked DS9 < 1290898524 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or am I missing some insane bit of PC design? < 1290898561 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: You really have never written a bootsector. < 1290898579 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: (Also, good luck trying to make an OS that fills an entire floppy unless you use C++ or something.) < 1290898633 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The MBR code I wrote does not check for disk failure (but maybe it should? At least the MBR code is loadable) < 1290898645 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, OK, I'm assuming the floppy isn't a physical floppy disk stuck into a slot on the computer. < 1290898677 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: no, it's a virtual floppy disk in qemu. < 1290898687 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're testing it on an actual machine: yes, it is a physical floppy disk stuck into a slot on the computer. < 1290898699 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Well, usually the fisrt floppy read has to be done three times. < 1290898710 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: The two usually fail on real hardware due to the floppy drive initialising. < 1290898719 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*The first two < 1290898722 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, not many computers still have them... < 1290898746 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: No, but who tests their experimental OS on a modern computer? < 1290898750 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just asking for a wiped hard disk. < 1290898773 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You will remove the hard disk first, then. < 1290898788 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: And boot it from what exactly? < 1290898797 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case the assumption is that it has no floppy drive. < 1290898805 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: From the floppy disk or optical drive or USB. < 1290898813 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, OK, so you have an experimental OS with a boot sector that's useless for modern computers. < 1290898819 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or else, replace the hard disk with the one for the experimental operating system. < 1290898838 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: Not all "modern" computers lack floppy drives. < 1290898865 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, large numbers do. < 1290898910 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: So what? It's much less annoying testing in a VM anyway. < 1290898916 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adding hard disk support can be done later, much later. < 1290898931 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you want x86-64, yes? < 1290898936 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: Yes? < 1290898961 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you have to suffer without hardware virtualisation? < 1290898964 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The same MBR code can be used with floppy disk and hard disk, I think. And the codes for accessing the disk is also the same if you use the BIOS to do so. < 1290899036 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: ...what? < 1290899056 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: You do realise that any hobby OS isn't bloated enough to run slowly when software-emulated? < 1290899064 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My MBR code could be modified to make it try again if the read fails. < 1290899066 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: You do realise that... what is even your point? < 1290899073 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plenty of x86-64 machines have virtualisation. < 1290899110 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%macro dpstr 1+ < 1290899110 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%%str: db %%len, %1 < 1290899110 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : %%len equ $-%%str-1 < 1290899110 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%endmacro < 1290899113 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more better this time! < 1290899120 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.load: dpstr "Loading kernel...",1 < 1290899123 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a smiley face at the end. < 1290899221 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not know whether or not FreeDOS will load with my MBR code. < 1290899245 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1290899533 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros_, down? < 1290899562 0 :ineiros_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm up. < 1290899573 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros_, horrible lag < 1290899585 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros_, timed out < 1290899603 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have any ANSI arts to test the anstomzm.w program? < 1290899643 0 :ineiros_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: For some reason, my outbound connections are horribly slow. < 1290899719 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros_, saw the lava fall at my castle of dread? < 1290899742 0 :ineiros_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1290899795 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros_, looks wonderful during the night (like atm) < 1290899897 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!~phantomho@cpc12-sgyl29-2-0-cust185.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1290900028 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: Anyway boot sectors are a pain because you have to read a bunch of data off whatever, move it elsewhere, and repeat. It's more of a pain than it sounds. < 1290900093 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I do not think so, you do not have to do any of that stuff. < 1290900114 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Yes you do, if the kernel is greater than a certain size, or you want to load it in the higher half of memory. < 1290900229 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually you can just use unreal mode for that. < 1290900243 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: The BIOS still can't load outside the 1 meg area. < 1290900275 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, what's this the boot sector for? < 1290900281 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: OS < 1290900307 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kitten or a part of Mitosis or something even more irrelevant/ < 1290900318 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: And what happened if you define the segments for unreal mode to write the high memory? < 1290900433 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: Why would it be for Kitten? :p < 1290900447 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Uh, that might work. *Might*. I'm pretty sure BIOS calls are always relegated to real-mode style memory. < 1290900454 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, part of Mitosis or further irrelevancy, then? < 1290900463 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Besides, if your kernel is too big you *must* copy it, since the BIOS can't write to more than one segment. < 1290900473 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: Let's call it part of Mitosis. < 1290900481 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's aimless coding for inspiration. < 1290900505 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mitosis: the bootloader. < 1290900537 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You can read the disk and then change the address and then read the disk a second time in a loop until you are finished with loading the kernel? < 1290900568 0 :Phantom_Hoover__!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1290900616 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't believe the BIOS can write that far. < 1290900700 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldn't write far, it would just write several time with different bases :) it might actually work too < 1290900730 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: indeed: "Boot record loads kernel image (below the 1mb memory mark, because in real mode that's the upper memory limit!)" < 1290900753 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming the bios doesn't assume that it can get the value of es and restore it later, since that would upset the unreal magic < 1290900759 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1290900799 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: O, yes, that is it, exactly. < 1290900892 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: that sounds dangerous to rely on :) < 1290901205 0 :augur!~augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1290901211 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how does linux and grub manage to load a kernel image larger than 1 MB? < 1290901251 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well who knows with the "advanced" things. the obvious thing to do is either the copying thing or uh < 1290901257 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :talking to the IDE driver manually in protected mode? < 1290901258 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows < 1290901352 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros_, new maps yet? < 1290901411 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good thing elliott will never find that easter egg btw. < 1290901442 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros_: which easter egg would that be? < 1290901460 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ineiros_, you aren't allowed to tell him any details! < 1290901463 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, something I made < 1290901466 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is all I'm saying < 1290901505 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll just mine out mount vorpal to find it then < 1290901528 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, well it isn't there :P < 1290901566 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, btw you should put a sign halfway down the falling hole in those stairs saying "if you can read this you are going to die" < 1290901579 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, alternatively: "good luck trying to read this" < 1290901615 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or how about "HA HA, YOU'RE FUCKED." < 1290901627 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works too < 1290901640 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The stairs are suspended until I patch health out :P < 1290901651 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And until I get ineiros_ to edit the map to make the first hole down to level 0, so I can fix the alignment of the two. < 1290901665 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, I like health (except for tools) < 1290901679 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yeah, but ineiros_ already said he'll probably apply it if i don't change anything else < 1290901682 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so sucks to be you :p < 1290901716 0 :Phantom_Hoover__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone actually made a font for the Culture's language. I'm not sure whether it's cool or sad. < 1290901767 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover__, private use unicode codepoints? < 1290901779 0 :Phantom_Hoover__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, not sure. Haven't tried it. < 1290901798 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The font needs to be METAFONT if you are going to use it with TeXnicard. (Or some other format that creates GF) < 1290901834 0 :Phantom_Hoover__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Twould appear that it's just one of those ones which maps over the alphabetic codepoints. < 1290901895 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover__: If it is, then it had better be also the unicode flag is turned off so that it is clearly that is not unicode mode < 1290901931 0 :Phantom_Hoover__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am also vaguely irked at the Culture for using 9 bits to encode a character set of 32. < 1290901943 0 :ineiros_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New maps are in. < 1290901944 0 :Phantom_Hoover__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even including controls, you can't need more than 6. < 1290902030 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1290902069 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover__: Have you explored the other cavern I found? < 1290902072 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :While mining. < 1290902073 0 :elliott!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's big. < 1290902084 0 :Phantom_Hoover__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Approximate location? < 1290902149 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1290902204 0 :Phantom_Hoover__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean depth. < 1290902217 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1290902229 0 :Phantom_Hoover__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, is that the one where I found a lava stream and a load of stuff lying around? < 1290902371 0 :Phantom_Hoover__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it connects to the Great Cavern Off The Tunnel.